# Quality vs Convenience



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Peet's is a well known coffee roaster here in the Bay Area, and in recent years have expanded nationally. Peet's started the high-quality coffee business. Because of their national distribution, Peet's is prepacking their coffee and selling it in supermarkets all over the place. While in the Safeway, I saw a display of Peet's coffee, and was tempted to buy a bag as I needed some at home. But whoa! The label said that the coffee in the bag was guaranteed to be less than 90-days old. No way was I going to buy coffee that was even ten days old. What really got to me was that the price was higher than the fresh stuff at Peet's, and that Peet's has a store almost directly across the street from Safeway. "Why," I asked myself,"would someone buy a lesser quality product for more money when a better, fresher, less expensive product was available within walking distance?" The answer was simple: convenience.

So, I decided to ask the Chef Talk contributors what they thought. How much quality would you sacrifice for convenience? To what lengths would you go to get better quality food? Would you cross the street? Would you drive across town? Would you wait until the farmers' market day? Would you pass on an item completely if it didn't meet your standards? Would you buy less of an item if the quality you wanted was priced too high for your budget, or would you just buy more of a lower quality item?


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

For me it all depends upon what the product is. For coffee I rely on my soon to be mother in law who works for a roaster and brings me a case at a time about every 3 months. Its vacuum sealed and the last bag is just as good as the first.

I would go as far as crossing state lines to get better quality. 1 Sunday a month I drive down to Maryland to a local farmer and get my pork, chicken and beef for the house. I know where its grown, what its fed and that it is *ALWAYS* fresh during the slaughter season. During the off times I buy his cryovac frozen meats and they are great.

As for produce, I buy what I can locally at the farmers market and the rest from the grocer. I walk every Satruday morning about 3 blocks to the market and get my produce and bread. Its fresh, local and supports my home base.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Shel, 

While I love you to death (in a message board poster kinda way), based on many of your threads, I think you are out of touch with how the rest of the world (or at least the US) looks at food, cooking, and dining. 

Outside of "us" --- us being foodies, cooking enthusiasts, chefs, etc. 99% of the population isn't nearly concerned with taking the time to first, educate themselves regarding food, sourcing, ingredients, let alone care about organic, fresh, local, etc. Convenience is one factor, priority is another.....most peoples priorities aren't where there produce or meat comes from, and believe it or not.......they aren't concerned much with the taste. 

Many people eat just because they have to, to live, and don't give a second thought to taste.....they don't care if fresh local tomatoes taste just that much better than supermarket farmed tomatoes, they don't care if 90 day old coffee tastes that much different than 10 day old coffee, nor are most peoples pallates sophisticated enough to tell the difference in most cases. Even in the supermarkets, you have organic produce, meats, etc. and better quality, freshness products right next to each other in the supermarket at not that significant of a price, and people STILL don't choose better ingredients/product...why? because they aren't like us. It satisies them, they don't need the best ingredients to be happy. 

"WE" know, and thats why we spend the time to hunt out good ingredients, organic this, high priced that, special this.....but "WE" are a very small amount. 

You had post about being insulted when a friend cooked you store bought non-organic chicken -- 99% of the population cooks with that same chicken, why? because it doesn't make a difference to them and they aren't bad people for it. They aren't lesser people for it. Nor is the person who cooks with the best ingredients, smarter, or better than someone who cooks with hugh fructosed corn syrup laden ingredients and likes McDonalds over the Michelin 3-star. 

Most people don't put thought into what they by because it doesn't matter to them. Of course, we can discuss if people SHOULD be concerned with food sourcing, organic, etc. how this affects health and culture, and debate the trade-offs all day, but that's another story. 


how many people line up at starbucks and D&D every day to drink mud? more than grind there own freshroasted day old beans and french press it every morning. Starbucks stock and numbers are proof in that.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

While I agree with your general point RPM, I disagree with what you say in one aspect. It's not because they don't care how it tastes and if it's good for you, it's because they don't know that they should care more. Furthermore people want to buy according to value. To you and me value means having the best product. But to most value means having the cheapest product.

Just the other day I had a hankering for a cinammon raisin english muffin topped with salted irish butter. I was picking up my muffins in the bread aisle when an older gentleman took me by the elbow and lectured me about how I should buy the english muffins that were on sale. I explained to him that I did not want 2 dozen plain english muffins, I only wanted a 6pack of the cinammon raisin. But he went on and on about how it was a better deal and it was on special and if paired with this or that coupon it would be nearly free etc. I buy what I want and what I need. But most of the world will wait to buy butter until they get a coupon, and wind up getting a different brand every time without giving a thought to its quality.

Shel, I applaud your determination to get the best product possible. Because of a few people's and organizations' perserverance more and more people will hopefully start to agree with you. But I would be careful not to judge people if they cannot be as zealous about it as you are. You tend to be a bit persnicketty about quality and I mean that with affection. And no one on this forum wants to feel policed and defensive about our ability to buy "the best" or not.

I have a similar issue with my husband. He feels like any furniture we buy has to be of the utmost quality and will refuse to buy temporary pieces of plywood that he calls junk while he puts on his carpenter's hat and makes them himself.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

that's that "should they care" debate for another thread I mentioned haha. :lol:

But, I disagree, I think that most people just choose not to care because it's not important to them. Sure, it "adds up", eating ****, fast food, etc. etc. and the overweight US is a product of some of that, but for the average in-shape person, that organic chicken, or that fresh brewed coffee, isn't going to make a difference health-wise.

I was trying to find a similarity to compare it to like your furniture analogy but came up short - thanks for that analogy -- it was exactly my point.

I think on the OTHER end of the spectrum., and there was an article in some men's magazine this month that alluded to it, was how food/ingredients are getting like status symbols like cars. You don't really "_*need*_" the Ferrari, but it's nice to have. But both get you from point a to point b. You don't need fancy ingredients to sustain life.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I'd just as soon you reserve your affection for someone else <LOL>. Yeah, I may be somewhat out of touch with the rest of the US, but understand that I live in the San Francisco area, and food is a major, major concern for many of the population. Many people here know the name of the chicken that laid the egg they had for breakfast. We have an area in Berkeley called the _Gourmet Ghetto_ and, to a great extent, we set food trends for the rest of the country. So yeah, we're out of touch.

I wasn't addressing my question to the rest of the world - just to the people at Chef Talk. I know the rest of the world doesn't care about food like we do.

You better read that post again. I was _*NOT*_ insulted and I resent your comment that I was.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

oi-ya-oi

How about "you had significant enough of an "issue" with the food your friends served you because it was not organic and was store bought that, you posted on an internet forum saying that you did not even want to really eat it and you thought it was bad etiquette (title of the thread) to serve this food to you or any guest" 

My point was the same that Mapiva had. 

I was, as nice as possible because I/we appreciate your input, trying to say that many of your threads come across as pretentious and "better than thou".


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I love good food and good coffee and all, but i can't afford to buy a lot of products that taste better but are way more expensive. Yes, i can get organic free-range chickens, and do OCCASIONALLY,. but i jsut can't get them every time, or if i do, i can do less other things that i really want to do, like help my kids out or travel to see them. 

I think you would like my non-organic chicken (well, italian chicken is less tampered with than american, but still, not the real thing) since i do cook it well, and it tastes better than a lot of organic chickens i've eaten cooked by people who can;t cook. 

I like the ferrari analogy RPMcM uses - If you offered me a Ferrari, i would immediately sell it (where the heck can i drive it anyway?, i would feel terribly self-conscious, it would use more gas in a day than i would want to spend in a year and i could never park it anywhere and it would be stolen immediately). If you offered me choice between a ferrari that i couldn;t sell, or a toyota i couldn;t sell, i would certainly take the toyota. Not even a second's second thought. 

There is a certain snob value in some foodie things, and we can really get carried away about these. There is unbelievably great, there's pretty darn good, and there's lousy, and i can stick with the pretty darn good. 

So, to answer you, Shel, I'd say that yeah, maybe the freshly ground coffee is better, but i just don;t have that kind of time (to grind every morning) or money (for a grinder that doesn;t make the kind of noise that would shake me to the core when i have to very gradually wake up in the morning) and i buy it a kilo at a time at the only place in rome with american coffee, i have it ground there and I store it tightly sealed in the freezer, adn really, i must not have such a sensitive palate, because it tastes about the same to me. So while i might cross the street to buy a better coffee, i would not cross town on purpose for it, if i could find the same kind vacuum sealed in my usual supermarket. But, then again, coffee is not nearly as important to me as tomatoes or tea (i do cross town to find whole, loose, unbroken orange pekoe tea which is infinitely better than any teabag tea i ever had).


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

The Ferrari analogy I don't really get because a ferrari is not really any safer or more good for you than my toyota corolla.

What you really mean to say is that "my hybrid is wayyyy better than your SUV!" which is exactly the same argument as "my organic chicken is wayyy better than your .39cent/lb caged bird."

Being able to shop for real produce and organic meat is definitely a status symbol FOR NOW! But dollars talk and the more dollars we spend on supporting local farms and good ingredients the sooner the market will turn it's head our way. I applaud anyone who tries to convince people of buying great ingredients. 

And I'm going to disagree with you again about the same point RMP - buying good food doesn't matter to people because no body has told them it matters. For nearly 40 years we've been told what is good for us and now suddenly we're not supposed to buy 100-calorie packs of cookies? But they used to be good for us like a couple of years ago! It takes time for change.

I remember when I thought people like Shel were poopooing me for buying the eggs on special and now I myself poopoo on people who don't buy organic eggs. Within the last year I've switched to organic milk, eggs, leafy greens, canned tomatoes, and most recently onions, potatoes, butter, and cream. The list will grow I'm sure. But not because I think I'm better than them but because I want to scream at the top of my head IF YOU'RE WILLING TO BUY EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY AN IPOD THEN WHY CAN'T YOU SPEND A LITTLE EXTRA ON GOOD NUTRITION??? See we all spend our money in different ways and this is where my splurge is.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Ah-ha, but neither is your husband's furniture compared to Ikea furniture. Sure we know that it is finer crafted, looks better, and will last longer........but to most people, Ikea will still hold you're undies and you can still eat off of an ikea table. 

No one is arguing that better ingredients, are....better. and supporting them is.....better. just saying that people who's priorities lye in furniture, cars, or electronics over food, aren't "bad"....it get's the job done, just as ikea furniture and toyota corollas. 

(BTW - I am with your husband on the furniture stance, but choose performance and uniqueness over practicality in automobiles any day, although I did have a prius for 6 months before my cadillac )


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

You have pretty much expressed my feelings exactly ... I'm just forty years ahead of you <LOL>

I try not to be too critical - I really do - and I try to hold myself in check. But dam# it! When I see the cr#p that's foisted upon the American public I get so angry. When I was twelve years old I started shopping for myself because my mother didn't buy things (clothing & food) that met my standards. At fourteen years old I had my own butcher, at sixteen I would travel for hours on the subway to a store that had great citrus. At sixteen I bought my own clothes ...

I understand that people have to buy what they can afford - although I would argue that buying less of better quality is an alternative to be considered. I know that people have different ideas about what constitutes quality, and certainly what's important to them. I am lucky in that I can afford the time to travel across town to get the bread or the butter I desire, that I don't ever have to enter a typical supermarket and buy a "national brand" of some product. There are products I never heard of until joining CT.

But let me tell you a little secret. I'm willing to bet that I am the poorest bloke on this list. I've not worked in almost three years because of some health issues. I spend more time with doctors than I do at home. But I don't care. I am not going to buy junk - junk food, junk clothes, junk anything, just because I'm impoverished financially. I don't even feed cr#p food to my cat. He gets home made food - organic chicken and high quality turkey from the poultry store, fresh organic egg yolks, decent salmon every now and then, high quality vitamins and ammendments. The reason I have time to shop is because I don't have the ability to work on a regular basis. But I'm not going to skimp on quality. I just buy better goods and less of them.

And if people want to judge me as pretentious, so be it. I don't give a rat's patoot. But if I can change some thinking, if what I say or do gets one person to shop at a farmers' market and gets them to try truly fresh produce, or real "farm fresh eggs" not just the junk advertised in the Wednesday flyer as being farm fresh when it's travelled half way across the country, then call me what you will. If someone will choose a locally grown apple, in season, over an apple grown in Chile and sent to the US via cargo jet, because of something I said or did, then call me a pompous, pretentious jerk - I don't care.


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## penguin (Aug 30, 2008)

What an interesting thread! 

Shel, to answer your question it depends on the product. There are some products that I will only purchase if I can get the very best in quality. If I can't afford it financially or can't afford the time to drive across town, I don't get the lesser choice. However there are some items that I'm okay with getting not the very best. I buy most of my food between four grocery stores, buying the best quality and brands between them. For my flour and wheat I drive an hour away to get a high quality bread flour that is freshly milled. But for beans, I buy the generic store brand. . . 

I agree with the previous poster that everyone has a different view on what quality means.

Emily


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Emily, for me it's a moving target. Let's take beans for an example, garbanzo beans to be specific. I used to buy garbanzos at one particular store known for a certain quality and good prices. I liked the beans because they were packed with very low salt, and they tasted pretty good. I then noticed the fine print on the can stating that the beans came from China. A new source had to be found.

I started using the garbanzos from Whole Foods. In order for me to get the WF garbanzos, I had to make a sixteen mile round trip, which I was willing to do although I'd always try to do in conjunction with some other errands. After a while I discovered that the quality of the WF beans slipped, and the beans weren't consistantly acceptable. 

Now I buy canned garbanzo beans from another company, which only uses USA or Canadian beans (I think USA beans). They meet all my requirements - low salt, good taste, great texture, and conveniently available in several places that I shop. The downside is that they are spendy - $2.00 a can (but I got plenty of coupons from the company). As much as I like the beans, I'm transitioning away from them. I'm looking for high quality, organic, dried beans, and I will make my own garbanzos from them. In fact, more and more I am moving towards making more items from scratch.

So, what worked in 2007 no longer works in 2008. Education about a product, new products, new options, all contribute to food purchasing decisions. And over time my idea of quality has changed.

Coincidentally, the first store that I got beans from received so much flack for carrying products produced in China, that they have changed, and are changing, many of their suppliers. So, it sometimes pays to speak out and kick up some dust.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

As I have said before - I've bought only organic meats from a local butcher for the past 20 years and more. It was THAT long ago that I decided it was time to consider exactly WHAT I was putting in the mouths of my family.

Yes, it costs me more. BUT, I don't care.... I know the beasts have been raised just outside the town, by the same family who butcher them and sell them. I go to that butcher because I can trust his meat and it tastes great! He will even deliver to valued customers.

Veggies/fruit? I buy at the local farmers' market or in the supermarket. I try to buy locally, in season - but that's not easy in the British winters!

Eggs - very few are not free-range in the better supermarkets in the UK. Some boast that they have only used free-range eggs and chickens in their prepared dishes since 2000.

Coffee? I buy mine from Valvona and Crolla, freshly ground and just buy a new foil packed kilo when I run out!


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

I have to second what RPM says-not everyone cares as much as some of us about what we eat. To them it is not something they really think about or care about. Sure they don't have the palette so they don't know what they are missing, but they don't want the palette either. I don't see why some people feel it is such a major sin for these people to not want to develop a more sophiticated palette. My next door neighbor is as happy with a grilled brat as he is with the Pulled Pork I spent 8 hours tending in my pit. On the other hand, he talks passionately about wielding for hours on end (I usually tune out after about hour #2). My point is, we all have different priorities in our lives and for some food is not one of them.

And for every one of you that food is a major concern for there are 200 average Joes living in the city that are happy with their roasted $.39 chicken or a quick burger on the grill.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Converting people to locavorism......works much better if you sidle a great apple, fig or raspberry into their mouth.....sledge hammers don't work, stomping your feet doesn't really work......

1) cooking demos at a farmer's market with samples

2) vertical tasting of apples or honeys or ........

3) farmers/chefs/Rd's in schools......tell a story, connect the kids.....

4) make hip local chefs that use local food hipper....write about them

5) Share your table.

6) make sure local media is connected, I feed my guys info on a regular basis.

7) Talk to politicans, especially Dept of Ag guys.

8) Teach local foods cooking classes

Shel, much like you I cooked for my family from a young age. By the time I could drive grocery shopping would include multiple bakeries, fish mongers, cheese mongers, specialty shops.....Memphis didn't have a farmer's market. I've driven 1.5 hours for great bread. Everytime I'm in SF, Ferry Plaza is one of my last stops prior to hopping on a plane.....market basket, ice chest and all. Not only do I travel for great food but try to recreate it.

A large portion of my income is spent on food, raw product and dining out.

Probably 30 years ago I figured out not only did my family not share "the passion" to the extent I do, but they tolerated it only to a point. Sure they'd enjoy the elegant ethnic meal, sure they'd put up with my hauling them through farmer's markets, specialty stores and bakeries....but only for so long. It got to the point that I'd make sure there was time to explore on my own,rather than torment friends and family. Some would say obsessive.....others would love to troop around NYC checking out foodie place after foodie place.

For many of us long time members of cheftalk it became evident early on that this site contained "our people"......those that won't think you're totally weird for butchering pigs and talking about ad nauseum. or heirloom beans or cheese or bread or pastries.......

How far does one go to find "the best".....isn't it a continum?


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

Unless I drive 125 miles one way local and supermarket food are my only choices. During the summer I eat a lot from my own garden and farmers markets and during the winter whatever produce I may have in the freezer. The rest I buy at a Super WalMart or Hyvee because thats all I have a choice between(except for beef and pork, I buy a years worth of local organic and and freeze it). You can't say people don't care when many don't have the choices that larger cities afford.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

Interesting timing on this topic. I've been under the weather a bit the last few days, haven't felt much like cooking. But tonight I am feeling better, and got an urge to whip up a big batch of chili verde. Though better, still not 100%, I got canned chiles, canned tomatillas, canned pinto beans for the side dish of the smothered chili verde burritos I plan to make tomorrow. Normally they'd all be fresh.

Tonight was, I hate to say, convenience over quality.

mjb.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

There's something awfully wrong when our members have to be apologetic and ashamed of admiting they use canned beans (or whatever) once in a while. I think there are many closet-twinky-lovers on this site who need to get a serious reality check or better yet, get a hobby. This site is for people who take an interest in food, not in the elitism of food. I suggest we all think about getting down from the high horse and get back to business.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Doesn't your quality/convenience formula change?.....mine is not stagnant....there's a certain area that I'm comfortable shopping/eating within, but that changes with time, location, season, who's around to feed.....etc.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Freedom of choice, freedom of expression, is what makes us all unique and different. Therefore interesting


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Sometimes canned is as good and maybe better


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Yes and no, depending on your definition ... there are some items I buy for convenience - yesterday I purchased a can of chile - but it was a carefully thought out process, choosing a brand that was low salt, organic, no GMO's, from a well-regarded company, and packed in a can that was free of BPA's, and so on. 

And as I wrote in an earlier post, the quality/convenience target is always moving. For me, I keep looking for higher quality, even in convenience items. Fortunately, the products are out there - at least around here.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I was thinking about your comments last night. There's nothing wrong with convenience - I, too, buy convenience foods - but there's quality convenience items and junk. I'd like to think you used good quality canned goods, items that met your standards for quallity and goodness, rather than picking up some junk from the "dented cans" outlet.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Not to judge since I dont know you from Adam, but why would you worry soooo much about those things. Even if you buy organic, which every farm and manufacturer has a different definition for, and you buy GMO free from what you call a well regarded company who is probably having it copacked and putting their label on, in a can that is free of BPA's you are going to go the same store and buy produce off the shelf that was more than likely crown from GMO seeds. What most ppl dont realize is almost 85% of the food we eat in the US has some kind of GMO in it....


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Because I care about what I put in my body. I buy from known, well-regarded, local sources.

I generally don't buy produce in a store - I rarely set foot in a supermarket - I get my produce from local producers at the farmers' market, and these producers are well known for their quality and attention to environmental concerns. In fact, many adhere to stricter standards than the USDA Oraganic code or whatever they call it. All are local. The Berkeley Farmers' Markets don't allow any non-local products to be sold - I think the radius is something like fifty or 100 miles from the city. Anyway, when I do buy produce in a store, it is from one of three stores, and I know where their produce comes from - the same local sources as the farmers' market. I do not buy ANY prepackaged produce from any mainstream producer, such as Earthbound Farms, Cascadian Farms, Trader Joe's, or other such companies. I stopped that practice quite some time ago.

You see, around here, there's a BIG movement towards buying local products, and a number of the markets will tell you exactly who grew the produce. And we have a few magazines, newsletters, and organizations that keep track of who's growing what and what their farming and production techniques are like. That goes for dairy, poultry, and meat as well.

Around here many of us are _*VERY*_ attuned to where our food comes from, and who's producing it, and the quality they offer. I can tell you who packed the eggs I had for breakfast, I know the woman who raises the chickens, and the dairy products I use are only from one of two sources who produce some of the best milk and dairy in the state - and they, too, are local.

I rarely buy anything that is a commercial, national brand - well, I sometimes buy Hebrew National Franks and Grey Poupon Mustard. And three months ago - I bought a can of Campbell's soup that I saw advertised and wanted to see what it was like ...

Nope, you don't know me, and you don't know what the food scene is around here, of that I'm sure. Fortunately, there are enough Safeways and Lucky's and other such stores that, for those who will accept GMO food, mass-produced organics, milk from questionable sources, and large plastic bottles filled with chemically altered soft drinks, the option exists. And for the rest of us there's Stan Devoto and his fifty vaieties of heirloom apples, Frog Hollow for peaches and stone fruit, Lucero, Blue Heron, Full Belly amd other small, local farms growing incredibly high qualty produce (fresher and often cheaper than the stuff in many local supermarkets), there are the artisan bakers like Acme churning out organic baguettes and breads, Moyra and Thaddues Barsotti's wonderful tomatoes ... the list goes on and on.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Shel,
I admire the fact that you know all those ppl who probably produce and grown nothing but the best products avaliable, I too know who grows the chickens, where my eggs, pork, beef and lamb are grown fed and slaughtered and think ppl should be more intune with the food chain. 

On that note I will leave you with one thing to ponder, the farmer may only use GMO free seeds to plant the crops and feed for the chickens, pigs, cows ect but you share a water shed with Napa Valley if I am correct,(I spent a prettty good amount of time out there and in San Fran with my customers)and that was, until very recently one of the most heavily fertilized areas of the state of Ca. with all the growers. So you may be buying these wonderful finished goods but they still use the same water as the rest of the world to water the crops and feed the animals.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't think that's correct in all, if not many, instances. But you've got me curious ... I know that a lot of the produce is grown in a different water shed area than Napa, but maybe the apples I mentioned and some of the dairy.

What I'm not clear about is how sharing a watershed with the Napa Valley would effect things. Care to explain?


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I'd be glad to; The water shed or water system is the water that you use to drink and the farmers use to water with and feed the animals with. That water is full of pesticides and chemicals from other farmers in the area that use them to get better results from their product. That water than leeches into the soil down to the natural springs and into the system. if they use well water than its unfiltered and unpurified and very bad for you(one of the reasons San Fran is the heaviest consumers of bottled water in the country), and if the water is cleaned its full of choride, flouride and all kinds of nonorganic gmo products used to clean the water. See Shel no matter what you do to change your habits, how hard you try to be "Green" the crops still root and pull from that same dirty water shed and are watered with the same water.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I know, I know ... mea culpa. For some reason I keep forgetting about Boarshead - there's only one place around here that I know of where I can get them, and when I'm there it's usually for poultry. <Light goes on> I'll ask Maria to remind me about the Boarshead whenever I stop in. She's there every day.

Eating Hebrew National let's me be closer to God. 
_Makes me feel holier than thou! __







_


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

_You're just being pretentious and snooty, and rubbing our nose in the idea that your parents are better than the rest of us. :lol:_

Seriously, that sounds wonderful. Years ago, I spent the spring and a summer camping and hiking in the mountins in Calif, Oregon, and Idaho, mostly eating wild fruit from old orchards, did a little fishing, found lots of berries and nuts, and wild foods. There were a couple-three wonderful springs that I learned about, a "hidden" hot spring. Sometimes I'd come to a small town and buy some meat of one sort or another. It was an amazing summer for a NYC boy. If I could go back to those times, I'd do so in a New York minute. Do your parents need a "helper?"


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

I've got to come to Shel's side on this....love National Hebrew hot dogs, the only better may be Vienna (yes...I spent more time living in Chicago than NYC)!:lol::lips::lol:


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I take issue with your statement Shel. I would like you to explain what you mean by the Hebrew national quote.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

How can you "take issue" with something you don't understand?

Please be specific about what you would like me to explain. "The Hebrew national quote" doesn't register for me as the whole message had to do with Hebrew National to one degree or another.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

This is very frightening to me. The idea of someone in this thread _openly stating_ that they are on my side makes me very suspicious. I don't even like Hebrew National that much - but they are convenient, TJ's has them at a great price, and they must be of high quality since they are _"approved"_ by a higher power. Perhaps God knows someone on the ConAgra board :lol:


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

What don't I understand?


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

How do I know - you asked the question. Either tell me directly what you'd like me to explain or drop the subject. I'm not in the mood for this nonsense


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

There are some things I'm really picky about, but sometimes I envy people who can enjoy simpler, easier-to-attain or -make or -pay-for things as much as I enjoy what I consider the best. Health reasons are important, but aside from that, if someone loves Folgers instant coffee, in a way I envy them:roll:


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

And at the same time, if somebody wolfs down their food without taking time to taste it much, I think they're really missing out. Unless it's a cold egg mcmuffin made 3 days ago. Then it's better to get it past the taste buds as quickly as possible 

My point is that if you really love what you eat and there is nothing unhealthy about your diet as a whole, that's what I consider the most important.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Back in 1979, my mom came to Berkeley for a visit. She was a big coffee drinker - every morning, like clockwork, she'd have two cups of some kind of instant - Chase & Sanborne, Nestlé .... can't remember.

So, in anticipation of her visit, we went to Peet's to get her some real good coffee. Alfred Peet was in the store and I told him what mom drank and asked for three different blends, including a decaf, that she might like.

First morning comes, she asks for coffee, and I proceed to make her a great cup of the local favorite - Peet's House Blend. Mom looks at me, asks what I'm doing, and shrugs her shoulders like I'm crazy when I tell her I'm making some great coffee for her. She tastes it, spits it out, goes to her room and gets a jar of her instant from her luggage, and makes a quick cup. "Ahhh ... that's what I like," she said. "What's with this Peet's, Shmeet's? You drink that stuff?


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Cape Chef, I believe Shel is making a joke, referencing National Hebrews slogan "We Answer to a Higher Authority"


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

HAHA :lol:


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

My favorite coffee is from Michael Sivetz' store in Corvallis. It smells like coffee heaven in there.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Penzey's granulated garlic is an example of convenience that works for me. The quality is great, there's no off flavor and it blends better in sauces and with olive oil on veg......


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

In 1980 my soon-to-be-wife and I spent a few moths travelling around the US, and we met Michael when on a quest to restock the coffee supply in our VW camper. He seemed to be a very opinionated guy, and very clear on what his ideas and principles were. He was also a bit of a flirt. Janet and I really liked him, and if I recall, his coffee was pretty durned good, too. My recollection is that he knew Alfred Peet, the founder of Peet's here in Berkeley, and that he disagreed with some of Peet's ideas. But hey, it's creative, independent thinkers make great coffee ... How is Michael these days? He's probably a pretty old fellow now - does he still work in the store?


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I can't say I know Michael Sivetz personally, as I've only been a customer. He's not a bubbly type for sure--seems he's on a mission. I can relate 

I appreciate that if you have questions about anything technical about coffee, especially HIS coffee, he is more than happy to explain. My kind of guy, for a vendor. I think nobody in my lifetime may ever make coffee that I like better.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Shel, A little history about Hebrew National. t was started in NY by Lenny Pines who I had the pleasure of dealing with. His marketing know how made them # 1 seller in a few years . Founded under the strictest rules of the Kashruth laws , no questions asked.
Answering to a higher authority, had nothing to do with what went into them, but, it was supposed to guarantee the religious end of it.
The actual making of the dog was done by a Mr. Georgi Bell who now owns' National Meats' in Miami Florida, and whose frank is exactly the same and the same formula because he developed the original , at 1/2 the price. 

The all beef as stated ,is in fact beef , however it could be beef lips or feet or any other part of the forequarter ,as they are kosher. 
Nitrates and Nitrites are still used they have to be. 
Now H.N is owned by Conagra who in my opinion, to make a profit would put ground sawdust in them. 
So keep eating franks and you may be meeting the higher authority sooner then you think. Me, I wont eat any frank at all.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Just a passing question: convenience with respect to what?

I mean: hand-pureed garlic done with a knife, pureed garlic done with a press, garlic pureed in a robocoupe, what are we talking about here?

I don't mean to cause trouble, honestly. You're a caterer, and I can see that "convenience" for you also includes speed: you need to be able to focus your time and attention on certain things and not others. But I have not found Penzey's granulated garlic a superior product at all... unless we mean "superior to the horrible plastic granulated garlic you get in the supermarket." Yes, it has no off-flavors or nastiness, but it's still got that indefinable "I'm not fresh garlic" flavor.

On the other hand, my experience of garlic pureed in a processor or press is that it's nasty, with a peculiar metallic taste that I am told is produced by oxidation. I don't know why, but I find that hand-pureed with a knifeblade does not produce this taste. Hand-mortared under oil is even better, because then there is almost no oxidation at all, but obviously that doesn't suit all preparations.

Thus my question: I'm uncertain what you mean about "it blends better in sauces...." Better than what?

Again, really really, this is an honest question from a mildly hard-core home cook to a professional in a specific end of the food trade.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

From someone who has held a 17 locally grown garlic tasting, Penzey's garlic does hard core duty in the kitchen. No chunks, lumps, great easy flavor.....price for Chinese peeled garlic is cheap but we're not into buying fresh from China, local is difficult to find and very expensive. Penzey's is easy, it's inexpensive realitively speaking (not compared to other dried garlic). Dried works well in cream herb/blue cheese/Italian dressings, it's great to sprinkle on meats or use in a sauce that is pretty complex (as in Marabelle.....prunes, oregano, brown sugar, capers, olives, white wine, vinager, garlic. What I use fresh garlic for is olive oil based sauces, where minced or sliced garlic is desirable. Even though we make sausage from scratch, bbq sauce, rolls, baked goods.....Penzey's garlic works for me in many applications. We're not going to use a pestle and mortar to pulverize garlic.

Prior to trying Penzey's garlic, no garlic powder was worth using.....


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Sivetz Coffee in is in a building that used to be a small church, across the street from a Safeway. What a cool contrast! He's got a degree in Chemical Engineering, by the way.


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## free rider (May 23, 2006)

I don't have time to shop because I'm too busy working to survive. If I had to take a day off work, I'd have to live on the street. There, I would have to get my organic foods from the dumpster behind the Whole Foods.

You worry about food because of your health. Many people are able to live healthy lives without having to worry about each and every morsel (think people with allergies versus people without).

We each decide what's important in our lives and put our resources towards that. 

If you had children to feed, perhaps you would skimp so that they could eat better?

Edited to clarify: If you had children to feed, perhaps you would skimp on yourself so that they could eat better? Maybe you'd skimp on food purchases for yourself so that they could have an education?


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

When I was working fourteen and sixteen hours a day, I still made time to get the food I needed. Granted, there were two of us, but my wife was pretty much useless in that regard. She wanted to eat out every night <LOL>

Whoa! I was concerned about the food I ate long before I had health issues, and apart from watching what I eat (not being too much of a pig), I can eat anything I want. The health issues I have are not food-related.

Indeed - and long ago I decided to eat the best quality food I could, but that doesn't mean I won't grab a hot dog or a slice of pizza, or even hit a fast food joint every now and then.

You don't know who I support. However, lets go with your thought for a minute. If I had children, would I eat cheap, poor quality food and feed them the high quality food? Or would they get to eat the lower quality stuff, like supermarket ground beef from who-knows-where, or pesticide-sprayed, e.coli enriched produce? When the salmonella outbreak occured that was traced to tomatoes, I wasn't afraid to buy tomatoes.

As it happens, all food in the San Francisco area is pretty expensive, but organics, local farmers' markets, great produce, high-quality dairy, is generally not much more expensive than conventional and questionable foods, and, believe it or not, it's often less expensive. We can buy great artisan and organic breads for less than supermarket white bread. There's a very well-regarded company here that makes whole grain breads. I'll pay $2.25 for a standard, sliced loaf at the bakery while white bread at the nearby supermarket is about $4.00 Some non-local brand (Jenn-O?) of ground turkey, loaded with excess moisture from processing, and who knows how old it is, costs about $4.59 a pound (or more) at the local Safeway and other similar supermarkets compared to the fresh ground (a couple of time a day, at least), non-water infused, high quality turkey made of light and dark meat that's available at the poultry store for $2.99 per pound.

Much of the non-organic produce, that is less than really fresh, costs the same or more in many places as fresher, better quality, organic, locally grown produce at the farmers' market. I can buy three large heads of romaine at the farmers' market for $2.75 while the skimpy, pre-packed Earthbound Farms lettuce costs about the same or more in the places I checked. More lettuce, same price, fresher, and, at least in my refrigerator, it stays fresh longer, probably because it wasn't a week old when I bought it.

Anyway, you get the point ...


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## free rider (May 23, 2006)

And you still don't seem to.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Hey, Ed - I knew most of what you posted, including the ConAgra connection. It's time to get away from HN and move to some of the better dogs made locally. Thanks for the kick in the butt.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

no dogs? oh man! Breakfast yesterday was a crispy on the outside, juicy on the inside locally made brat at Soulard farmers market.....G&W is an old world processor here in town with a small retail outlet in front of their butcher facility. Even if you show up at 8am they'll offer you a Busch beer and kids a weiner (cold from the case). I've tourred their building and it's impressive. 

San Francisco's prepared food is significantly cheaper than STL. Farmer's Market prices are about the same for comparable products across the country....Santa Monica,DC, Madison, STL, Santa Fe, Portland......if you go to growers only markets the prices are usually comparable. Mixed farmer's markets (brokers/farmers) usually have lower prices. ie....yesterday at Soulard I bought 8# of sweet potatoes for $2 from a local grower, they would have been $16 at a growers only market. Roma tomatoes, I bought a 25# case last week from the same farmer for $16, they would have been $4# or $100 at the growers only market. I know the farmers at Soulard, been to most of their farms....ditto the farmers at the other markets. Not all are raising in organic fashion. 

How about fish? There are plenty of Asian markets in STL that have live tanks.....turtles, lobster, abalone (who knew they were even legal to sell?!), frogs, numerous fishes.....they'll scoop one out of the tank and whoop it upside the head for you, clean and filet to your desire. But the tanks look perpetually dirty......really dirty.....at the three that I frequent it just doesn't look right. Then there's WF and their pricey pristine layout, the fish is not always fresh.....I've now started smelling everything prior to purchasing and getting ice packs, one bad experience a couple of years ago with halibut was enough.....Then there's Bob's Seafood, Bob's is a mom and pop wholesale/retail seafood store. The owners are always there, always throw laginappe in the bag....'it's your birthday, 5# of rock shrimp are in the order gratis", mislabeled smoked trout, a few extra lemons.......the product can be pricey retail and certainly less wholesale (about 25-40%) it's come in a little lower than WF but not that much....the kicker and the selling point is the quality is always great. 

Great Food for stretched budgets. Farmer's markets are starting to accept EBT aka food stamps....Michael Pollan's letter to the incoming president was wonderful, it hit issues that have been talked about for the 10 years I've been involved in local/national food policy issues. Community gardens are available (last count I heard) 133 in STL city. Food banks are supplying vouchers for local produce inner city farmer's markets. Huge steps for those on food stamps or in food insecurity to access fresh products. I've taught budget cooking classes to inner city kids/adults through the years.....hearing what the kids eat is illuminating....ramen @ 10 cents a package, mac and cheese 45 cents....
it was more taking what was widely used and adapting to healthier versions.....pot of greens with turkey instead of pork, or a quick cook saute of greens, sweet potato muffins (kids favorite was chocolate, wasn't that a cupcake when we were little?), omelets.....most ate alot of eggs and cheese but rarely put in veg., etc.....
I've worked with cooking programs that had people from the street with addicitions that were learning to professionally cook. Advocating group meals so they could stretch their buying power by buying in bulk or cooking for larger groups.....ie you cook 1x a week for 7 people, it costs less to make one meal for 7 than 7 meals for one....with more variety.
County, suburbia kids usually have a horrendous diet. Brown and neon foods in the cafeterias, fast food after sports or activities.....the 8th graders I taught didn't know about plain yogurt, most didn't cook without a microwave.....Many had not been to a farm until we took them there, 8th grade 12-13 year olds. 

On stretched means, supporting small children, it's not only time consuming to procure and prepare fresh food, there are skills involved that have been lost for the past 3 generations. Say, your cooking skills are good, to put up food takes money.....unless you have canning jars, lids, etc or freezer space or drying machines. Once you've got the foundation the cost is less. That's the general hold back is coming up with the base of knowledge and the means to store.
So where to be food/nutritional/taste econimcal.....that was Shel's initial question.

Last week I got a call from a HS wanting me to talk to a home ec, now named something else that escapes my sieve brain. Options in food careers is the topic. Same day I got a call from a young food journalist that was way way over her head writing about farming.....she had no idea what use bees had on a farm. I've talked to her into her last plan of going to culinary school that has a sustainable ag thread or garden they are utelizing......not CIA, tall white hat mode but more to get the base for cooking and agriculture that will help her in her future food writing endeavors. If anyone has a suggestion of colleges/universities that are a good fit it'd be appreciated.


So, long run. Altering our food system as it is currently, gradually stop subsidizing corn & beans....aka cheap feed.....quit subsidizing Monsanto and ADM or having their interests at heart more than the health of the general public......teach our communities to cook again......feed our children good food when they are in our care ie schools, after school programs, preschools, licensed day cares, food pantries, soup kitchens, prisons, hospitals, institutions.......start more gardens.....get the landgrant universities to research and teach sustainable ag.....all the SARE grants are a rich low income resource.....

For there to be less cost over all in good quality food, it needs to be embrassed by a vocal and cohesive group of concerned citizens.
JMTC.....well maybe 4 cents...:smiles:


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey Market Caterer (and anyone else too, of course),

Do you think things are going to change any faster with what's been happening to fuel prices (which are going back up soon, you know)? I mean, supermarket food is just going to get more and more expensive because it's shipped by truck huge distances, and stuff done on container farms is going to keep going up because they're burning huge amounts of diesel. Pretty soon I suspect that in many parts of the country, local non-container farming products are actually going to be less expensive than supermarket equivalents. And I see farmers' markets popping up here and there throughout urban areas, making it not any greater a hike to get local than to get supermarket. So I wonder whether the tide is going to start turning as people's wallets get thin.

Americans used to be famous for "use it up, wear it out, make do or do without." The Yankee motto. Maybe the Second Depression is just what we need to make us get back to that a bit?


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

The big boys are jumping on the "local bandwagon" much like they did with organic, at the Wash U food day with Joan Dye Gussow, Sid Mintz etc. there was talk of agribusiness starting to work on their own rail systems. Buying land closer to the end users.

A few months ago an Emory anthropologist spoke about their designs for small walkable communities.....
We're seeing more of that around here in current building trends. There are suburban builders designing $$$-$$$$ housing developments with farming space in the middle, they are having issues finding sustainable farmers willing to invest the amount of time it'll take to nurture land they won't own and in some cases are asked to pay rent on. 

Gas prices will push consumers to use more mass transit, more bikes, walk more.....or just stay around the house more.
As to food and gas, I found that when gas went up to $4 a gallon that I really planned out routes, eliminating some because the math said it'd cost 2.5 gallons of gas to get back and forth....$10. Not something figured into the equation when gas was $3.5 or under $3. Which is interesting. 

The large farmer/broker market downtown was busier than it's been in a long time. Word from the market master is that people can get better bargains there, and that with limited $ people are more apt to splurge on purchasing food. ie instead of taking a weekend trip to a resort, we'll make a nice dinner at home and plug in a movie. 
More and more people are concerned about food security, both in quality and quantity. Local food is hip. So, there are more people canning...it will only increase. More people wanting to forage.
It takes along long time to turn a system around. You can't pull out the current infastructure without crashing the system, it needs to be systematically altered. There are an awful lot of lobbiests who have ears of politicians. It will take grass roots cries to the right ears to alter policies. Right NOW is the time to start working on the next Farm Bill, it will be up in 5 years.....this is the vehicle that works on most public food $.....food stamps, WIC, supporting (or not) farmer's markets, elderly gimmees (some states provided $5, or alittle more to older residents for farmers market stipends), subsidies......
If all this matters to you, take the time and support the people in the trenches. In Missouri it's Farmer's Union & Missouri Rural Crisis Center has a nominal staff that lobbies for justice.....both not only need fiscal help, but bodies to show up at the state capital on specific days, or just basic grunt work that would take some of the burden off the shoulders of the staff.....setting up events, coming to events with alot of buddies, contributing food or entertainment or whatever you have to give.....last one I spent the day helping them prep food. Basically support what you espouse if you desire change.


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