# A new knife debate thread.



## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

As you know, we have probably hijacked several threads on our debates. And I'm sorry for this.

Chris came up with the idea of starting a new debate thread. And it's a good answer.

I have started this thread so it make take any direction it needs to go for the polite discussion on any phase of knives you wish to impart. I think it's going to be fun.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Okay, I'll shift this over here.
I'm with you until the last line, Chico. 

A "better knife" is one that will hold a serviceable edge throughout the relevant type of shift. And it's one in the hands of and under the eyes of people who know what a serviceable edge is and how to maintain it.

For example, a Forschner or Dexter Russell.

Those knives are not garbage, and they don't cost "a few hundred bucks." They're perfectly serviceable for the vast majority of tasks. 

That's why I dislike Shun and Global, and why I really intensely dislike Wusthof and Henckels: they sell products at vastly inflated costs by convincing the unsuspecting and uninformed that they are ultra-premium wonderfulness. I know of nothing that makes a Wusthof or Henckels superior to a Forschner, but it costs a lot more. I know of a lot of things that make a Shun or Global inferior to several major Sakai-based brands that cost a good deal less. But a huge number of people, pros and home cooks, consider it a known fact that Wusthof, Henckels, Shun, and Global rule the knife world and are the best of the best.

As to the knives that cost "a few hundred bucks," I think you're imposing an excessively large gap between bad knives badly maintained and badly used and good knives well maintained and well used. Anyone who makes a jump to high-end honyaki knives, in my opinion, fits one of the following categories: (a) collector with money, (b) idiot, (c) frightening expert who knows far more about knives, sharpening, and cutting than you and I put together. 

The best cutters I know, several of whom fit into category (c), use honyaki blades sparingly or not at all. They generally buy knives that hang in the $250 region, give or take. And in the gap between these guys and the "newbies" you describe who don't know dull from sort of sharp, who don't know the first thing about knife maintenance -- in that gap lies almost every professional chef in the world.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've spent hundreds of dollars on individual knives--which is why I know The Tourist from other knife forums. And most of them I've sold and prefer simpler designs and steels. 

But in the kitchen I use a Forschner. It just works and is highly affordable. Sure I appreciate exotic steels like any other knife knut but they don't add to my cooking experience. 

Appropriately, it's like a Swiss Army Knife. There are fancier tools out there with better steels, ergonomics and tougher. But a real SAK is a fine tool in its own right and will perform when used appropriately and treated with care and respect. 

And Victorinox makes Forschner and SAKs.

Phil


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I do try to stay with the overall theme of the forum, that is keeping the idea of "professional" in mind.

I see no problem with taking care of a home food hobbyist (BTW, I don't care for the epithet 'foodie') and getting the best edges on their Pampered Chef roll.

However, I do know a chef for a restaurant, and he has a side catering retirement business. Hours of cutting, time constraints, etc., and I sold him a deba--with an edge I might put on a sashimi knife.

Now before I further castigate myself as a heretic, I do believe that the client is always right. I just gave him better options. He's a big guy, a heavy knife is not a handicap and he will still have to make crisp slices. Win/win.

I would also provide a similar service for a woman who is considered "the best 'chef' in her neighborhood." There is still a 'presentation' factor. Obviously there will be few if any Hattori knives, but she might buy better quality at some point.

BTW, I still sharpen all makes and models.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I can't figure out what you're saying here. On the one hand, "the client is always right" suggests that you told him not to buy the knife. On the other hand, "I just gave him better options" suggests that you thought this knife a better choice than what he had. What would he want a deba for, of all knives?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

For the heck of it, lets swing this in another direction:

The evilist evil of all the evils...



No, not class action lawyers, not even politicians. No I'm talking about....


Advertising.


It's why one brand of knife is "better" than others, why a Camero is better than a 'Stang (or is it vice versa? )

Shun, Global, Wusthof (a.k.a. "Driezack" in Deutschland) Henkels, various hoity-toity Japanese brands, they all promote heavily in cooking magazines and heavily in various cooking shows. And if it's expensive, well then it's gotta be good, right?

C'mon, face it, If one of them started to put laser guides to shine down the blade ensuring the user a precise cut, all the others would follow suit and they'd all have an excuse to charge even more. Maybe treat the blade with liquid helium and lock it into a diamond pyramid for 99 days to ensure maximum sharpness for the rest of it's natural life.

Look, I have about 7 Chef's style knives in my kit. Most of them are Victorinox. They get dull, I use a steel, when that doesn't work, I put them aside, and when I have 3 or 4 that need sharpening, I crack open a cold beverage and go to work on the water stones in the garage at home.

What's my minimum demand of a sharp edge? 

That I can slice a taut-skined ripe tomato with no sawing or pushing. 

For 22 years now I haven't been let down. 

Do I slice fugu or raw ocotpus? No. 

Last week I must have sliced up 50 lbs of fruit for fruit platters: Pineapples, melons, kiwis, papayas. Each slice clean and crisp. Today it was cutting butter ganache. To do this I heat up the knife blade either in the oven or with a blow torch, and cut down through the slab, melting through the chocolate layer, crunch down through the toasted nuts, and make 144 even squares. With a $5 Ikea paring knife (gasp) I plunk down an aluminum cake pan bottom on a sheet of parchment paper and trace around it, cutting out disc after disc of parchemt paper liners for sponge. True, if I ever drop the knife It'd shatter like a file. Good thing it's only 5 bucks, 'cause one of the girls will use it to chip ice out of the chest freezer next week. About 20 years go I learned never to bring my "good knives" to work.

Cutting boards?

Nylon. When they get dirty I toss them in the d/w. No 3-step sanitizing process here, the high-temp d/w does that for me. I want peace of mind and no screw ups. When they get scarred, I run them through my trusty Delta 12" thickness planer at home. Two brand spanking new surfaces devoid of any defects and a good 3/16" thinner. Amen. Tourist, this is a service you should offer your clients. Charge them, but offer it.

I cut just-baked quiche and hard dry biscotti loaves with.... A $9.99 B&D electric knife. Sacrilage, I know. It's also the best tool for the job. I can push the slices together and you can't even see the cuts.

I have a business to run, no time to obsses with sharp edges, I'd rather obsess with new whoelsale accounts.

A knife is just a hunk of steel with a sharp edge. The magic is in the user hands.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

A lot of things go into making a "good" knife. We all like to say the edge is the main thing, and it is, but it's not the only thing. For an example, let's just take a very good blade purchased without a handle, just the bare rat-tail tang. IIRC one of the really well regarded makers will knock off $5 for buying it that way (I should remember the one but I can't- Watanabe, perhaps?).

Okay, great blade, but not so easy to use with no handle. What should be do? Could just rip a 2x4, drill it and glue the blade in! But that wouldn't be very ergonomic, nor very sanitary. It would be impossible to sanitize, hard to hold and the balance would be terrible.

So we give it a 'real' handle- but what do we choose? Again, this is just a thought experiment...in real life the type of knife would help dictate the handle. It would fairly unusual to affix Western style scales to a yanagiba, for instance. But if we have a gyuto we could use a Wa handle of Ho or magnolia, we could use linen micarta, etc.

In a round-about way that brings me to the Forschners. While the Fibrox handle is functional few people would say it's elegant. The grip can be iffy when it's wet or a bit greasy (like fat from a rib roast). Compare that to a Wusthof- it balances better and handles better. The latter is also a bit slippery when wet but overall I find they fit the hand a little better. These things are not trifling matters to me; ergonomics are a very important part of a knife's usability.

I think Forschner makes good knives if you simply can't spend more than $35 on a single peice, but I'd rather have a Messermeister. Or better yet, a Tojiro or Shun (or of course something better still).

For all the talk about Shun being 'overpriced' so far no one has ever given me an example of something _substantially better_ for the _same or cheaper price._ And I don't mean something you simply prefer that costs $10 less- I'm talking something that's demonstrably better. Ideally it would also rival or exceed the Kershaw offerings in the area of F'n'F and appearance, too. Sure, maybe if you live in Japan there are other choices but I can't think of a lot that are easily available here. Anyone who frequents this site probably already knows about and/or shops at JCK, Korin or ChefKnivesToGo. They have many great knives, but even allowing that I haven't tried some of the potential contenders many of them don't meet the price criterion. For example, Tojiro and Toghihura, two of the more recommended knives, cost virtually the same amount as the Shun. I got a really great deal on a Kanetsune that's definitely in the same class as the Shun but they've been out of stock for over a year, and all the other vendors are selling them for about what a Shun brings, too. JCK has some branded for them that look to be pretty competitive but not much cheaper than a Classic, generally about the same price. I have some Hattori's, and they're not a big step up from the Shun Classic yet they're even more expensive. At the cheaper end there are some knives made from a bit more garden-variety types of stainless as well as carbon, but I don't think the latter is an option for everyone.

Unless you guys are all buying your Shuns at SLT...that could explain the price disparity!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

FWIW, I will concede on thing: for the chef's knife and that knife only you would probably have a valid point. The Shun simply has more belly that it should have, so any knife with a "true" gyuto/French shape would be preferable, all else being equal. But that doesn't apply to their other blade shapes. Their bread knife, for instance, is extremely nice.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I prefer my older manufactured Sabatiers better than the old Forschners presently in my knife block. And as to knife threads, I feel that no other topic here at this forum has generated as much debate as the topic on knives. And I'm right, YOU'RE ALL WRONG! :crazy:


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

" I know of nothing that makes a Wusthof or Henckels superior to a Forschner"

_I Don't know how others shop but when I buy a work knife I'm looking for a knife that balances well and feels good in my hand and will perform well. While I often suggest Forschner to cooks for many reasons I can think of several things that make Wusthof superior to Forschner. Just hold a Forschner fibrox in one hand and a Wusthof classic in the other. The weight, build quality etc. are immediately noticeable. The Wusthof is about $100 and the Forschner about $30. The Forschner is equal to Dexter, Sani-safe or most house knives. They work and they represent a great value but I definitely would rather work with a Wusthof in most cases. To me $70 is not a big difference in a work knife. To a new cook it often is. _

"For all the talk about Shun being 'overpriced' so far no one has ever given me an example of something _substantially better_ for the _same or cheaper price."_


_I guess that really depends on what Shun line you want to compare. The Bob Kramer bread knife just might be a dandy but at $300+ it should be. The vast majority that buy Shuns are not buying their classic line but one of the several other lines. A lot of times that purchase is based on looks not performance. A Shun Classic bread knife is about $115. IMO the Mac is better as is the Viking that is made by Guede. Both are less expensive. Beyond that I don't assign caveats when I'm shopping like brand X Has to be "substantially better". If another brand is even a little bit better or has a better feel for the same price I'll go with that product. If it costs less then for most that's even better.
__
_


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## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Do you folks actually have a shared lexicon when it comes to terms like "better"? 

How are you gauging that? Is there a general score that you attribute to a knife based on the metal and construction quality?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

To me it's all in the quality of the metal and that's why I prefer a knife made with older carbon steel that I think is commonly called 1095 carbon. And the debate continues on and on and on...


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Actually, there's a longer back story. The deba was a "test mule" when I worked inside a Gander Mountain outlet. When the chef's son came in to have some sporting knives resharpened, this son saw the deba and asked about it. He liked the heft and told his dad.

I loaned him the knife and forgot about the issue.

The son returned, had the edge touched up and they bought the knife for the catering business. At no time did I make any sort of a sales pitch to the dad. I still believe the father liked the added weight.

However, the fact remains that a deba was sold, serviced and used as kind of a big boy's general purpose chef's knife. That's what the client wanted and obtained.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Alas, I do not own such a planer. As a boy I worked in the carpenters' shop at The Master Lock Company for one summer season. Not only does the ability to work with wood skip a generation, but so does the desire.

Besides, I'm a tinker, one of the clown princes of the serivice industry. We do a song, a dance, tell a few good yarns, a touch of eastern mysticism and a pinch of voodoo, and then we over-charge them.

It covers the cost of the new boards.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

By way of information only, meaning no criticism, and not taking sides, old Sabs are a lot closer to 1070 than 1095. FWIW, 1050 is where "high carbon" starts. 

Old Sabs are splendid knives, which as it happens comprise the overwhelming majority of my knife kit. However, in terms of weight, and edge holding they lag behind "better" Japaense knives. 

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'll take your word at the terms "1070...1050" since up to now "1095" is the only descriptive term I've encountered as to real carbon steel blades (read modern advertising). That's good information you provided concerning older stuff.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I have no solid numbers but I'd guess that for every "other" Shun that Kershaw sells they sell ten Classics, but I could be wrong. I'd expect them to greatly outsell the Elites since the latter cost twice as much and aren't as widely available. That's probably doubly true for the "exclusive" and other special lines (eg SLT-only , Kramer, etc). That excludes other Kai products that while superficially similar aren't Shuns, like the Wasabi and Pure Komachi. Of course, few would call those lines overpriced.

The Mac may be a better bread knife, at least for some. It's a bit cheaper, although a bit softer. Probably won't stay sharp as long but the extra length can be handy. The Shun Stainless is actually cheaper than the Mac, at least at a couple places.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Remind me to never mess with a chef. If a chef (or a tinker) asks me to give a hand and I don't, I might find my hand has left my arm without my even noticing it since the blade was that sharp and the action was that fast :crazy:


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

You could be right as well as I have no solid numbers either. Shun markets to home cooks and those who seem to focus on the visual aspects. In other forums I almost never see any one asking about a Shun classic. Then consider how many other lines Shun has;
Kramer
Kramer Meiji
Elite
Ken Onion
Pro
Pro2
Kaji
And a few others. I would doubt the they sell more classics than all of those combined. They don't seem to focus on classics that much in their advertising campaigns. Stores like Sur la Table and Williams Sonoma probably sell a ton of the higher end Shuns.
BTW After reading back through the thread it's interesting that the Mac Pro is almost the universal middle ground.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Within the 10xx steels, the last two digits indicate the percentage of carbon. For instance steel becomes "high carbon steel" when the alloy includes a equal to or greater than 0.50%. In other words, 1050. A 1095 steel has 0.95% carbon while a 1070 would have 0.70. This is important because the carbon forms "carbides," which are much harder than the plain steel. Other minerals such as molybdenum and vanadium help "organize" the steel carbon/steel matrix and control the size of the carbide crystlas, as well as allowing the incorporation of more carbon. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

No worries. Very few "chefs" can actually sharpen a knife very well.

It's not a difficult skill to learn by any means. But it does take willigness to invest time in practice. 

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

What I find really nice concerning about the older and therefore softer Sabatiers is that the sharpening steel really restores the wire edge; it really brings it back into line - something achieved with far better results than with my high-end 12 inch Henkels purchased in 1976. While the latter is a true monster when it comes to slicing bacon off of the slab, it's sharpness runs slightly behind that of my old Sabatiers.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

koko, 

I know you're interested in this stuff, and otherwise wouldn't bring it up for fear of creating the impression I'm nipping at your heels. You've got some facts and terminology mixed up. 

The surface hardness (which is what the Rockwell "C" scale aka HrC measures) of old and modern carbon Sabs hasn't really changed much over the years. Although certain Sabatier brands are softer than others. What has changed is steel sourcing. Many, if not all, modern Sabs use "world steel," which includes a high proportion of recycled steels. The old Sabs were almost always single source. 

A "wire edge" is not the term used to describe a sharp edge, or a fresh edge, or a newly sharpened, fresh, sharp edge. It's something else entirely. Rather it's a product of most types of sharpening when the edge bevel on one side, overlaps the bevel on the other side in the form of a very thin piece which bends very easily. The wire edge is also called a "burr," and is removed or "deburred" as a part of a proper sharpening process.

Not to digress too far, but the qualites of knife steel to which you want to refer are "toughess" and "strength." Toughness refers to the steel's resistance to breaking or tearing, while strength refers to its resistance to bending. Generally speaking, strong steels are hard steels and vice versa. 

It's easy to contrast strength and toughness in that most alloys are more one than the other. So in the sense that a strong steel will break before it bends your reference to hardness contrasting with flexibility has some truth. But it's a very complicated and interdynamic, more so because the best modern alloys are both strong and tough. 

Given a fairly symmetric bevel geometry, steeling can restore the edge geometry by straightening our rolling and waving. It cannot fix dulling caused by wear. No matter how strong (or hard) the knife, it's subject to rolling and waving; and with the right steel and skill set can be steeled to good effect.

Here comes the good part: Getting back to what you said about Sabatiers being particularly good candidates for steeling -- you're right. They are extremely tough, bend fairly easily and wear slowly. That said, you can really mess up a good edge by using too aggressive a steel. 

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Somewhere at a Finnish knife forum (Brisa) I've read that burr removal requires that the blade be drawn backwards over the stone and ultimately the "burr or wire edge" will break off.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Deburring not only breaks off the wire edge (aka burr), it exposes the fresh, "true" edge.

You may deburr in a number of ways. Here are some of the best:

Drawing the edge through the endgrain of a piece of wood. People often use the corners of their counter boards.

Drawing the wood through a piece of cork. Excellent method.

"Steeling." This is another excellent metod, but only suited to fairly symmetric sharpening bevels. Steel in the usual way with an extra fine or smooth steel and the burr will bend back and forth along a very straight line, then will eventually break off along that line very cleanly. In one way it's something like bending an old credit card back and forth so you can tear the material. In a slightly different way, it's like folding a piece of paper back and forth along the same crease so you can tear it along a straight line. All of these -- knife, credit card, paper -- work by way of fatiguing the material to be torn. Deburring on a steel works well only if the sharpener holds a good angle. The rounded edge of a steel exerts so much force at the point of contact.

_Whether sharpening, simply honing, and by extension, honing, almost everyone you've ever seen steel a knife does it wrong. Holding the approriate angle through the entire length of the stroke is just as important on a steel as on a sharpening stone. In fact, medium steels, coarse steels, diamond, or any other steel rough enough to sharpen, can do a lot of damage to an edge as they remove material at all sorts of angles. Furthermore, the knife should never "clang" against the steel. Banging the knife agains the rod, bends the edge out of shape, at the point of contact. Steeling should be done with a light touch. The geometry of the rod magnifies the force quite a bit. You don't want to push the edge too far, it weakens the steel._

"Stropping" on a piece of cardboard or hard felt. The grabby nature of the material takes the wire off efficiently. Also an excellent method which doesn't require a precision strop stroke.

As you described, either strop stroking on the sharpening stone which developed the wire; or, strop stroking on the stone in your set which is one step finer. A common method which doesn't requre an extra surface.

_A strop stroke is one in which the edge is set on the sharpening float at the sharpening angle, and is then pulled across the float in the direction of the spine while the angle is held. Holding the angle requires a little technique (e.g., don't pull it off the edge of the stone), and a lot of practice._

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Ahhhh, I noticed that drawing the blade thru a piece of cardboard really improves on the edge's sharpness and perhaps is akin to burr removal. Know all about stropping on leather and on leather coated with green chromium oxide.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

There is a shoe cobbler in my area that is about the last vestige of horsehide. I have strips cut and used for hanging strops. A touch of chrome paste about midway up the strop allows the bevel to receive a nice polish while removing small burs and wire edges.

In fact, sometimes I have "gremlins." That's a small area that drags or sticks and even a strong loupe' doesn't discern the problem. A horsehide strop not only leaves a slight mark where the gremlin lives, but most times polishes it off.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

If I remember correctly, bare leather stropping preceeds drawing the edge across the chromium oxide. Is that correct?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You're confusing razors with kitchen knives. They don't sharpen or strop the same. There's no need to use bare leather when polishing a knife by stropping. You go right to the loaded strop from the stones. 

As to razors, the sequence of loaded strop to plain strop or vice versa depends entirely on the sharpener -- with no right way or wrong way. There is, however, a correct sequence from canvas to leather. 

Finally, to clear up a misconception from an earlier post -- you don't sharpen a knife or even deburr it by drawing it through cardboard. You can use cardboard as a hard strop, but cutting through it will inevitably dull a knife. If your knife seems sharper, it is because it is very dull to start with and the cardboard is scuffing the edge enough to create micro-serration which will "bite," for a little awhile, but aren't actually sharp in the sense of an extremely narrow edge cross-section. 

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Ahh, the debate continues. Here's my opinion. Both you guys are wrong.:lol:

First off, a knife pulled through cardboard or strips of leather might indeed be sharper than when it was dull or as it is fresh off the stone. And the answer is the same--the edge is of poor quality. Let me explain.

When we visualize an "edge," we imagine a perfectly formed interseaction of two planes. Fair enough. Imagining a dull knife is easily, those planes do not meet. And finding that area is rather easy, it reflects light.

However, a fresh edge is not that 'clear cut,' pardon the pun. Just because the knife, razor or scissors has visited a stone means nothing. The sharpener might be a rookie. The angle of attack might have never reached the bevel. Or, a major sized bur may have formed and never been properly polished away.

You see this condition a lot of times on 'chisel grind' knives, like an Emerson CQC-7. The sharpener spends all of his time on the single bevel, failing to realize he has changed the obverse side, as well.

Think of a bur as a 'bent edge.' And like the flat area of a dull knife, it reflects light. The knife does not present a sharp edge into the medium to be sliced.

When you make that first cut through cardboard or leather, you "knock off," or more correctly break off the bur. That edge is quite thin and knocks off quite easily. Technically, that edge is sharper. Broken, but sharper.

Now, for when a pumice application, like chromium oxide, is introduced it doesn't matter one whit. Grit is grit.

You sharpen and polish metal by removing sections, stripping off material to form that perfect edge. Japanese polishers use nagura on many different grit stones--I find it works the best on stones within the EP yellow 800 range.

I don't care for chromium oxide, it stains everything like molybdenum disulfide grease ('black moly').

If you don't have nagura, use a dab of whitening toothpaste.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Tourist stated <<I don't care for chromium oxide, it stains everything like molybdenum disulfide grease ('black moly').>>

It ain't stained any blade on which I've used it. Tourist is wrong. Okay, BDL, not it's your turn to be wrong! :beer:


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

LOL, I didn't mean the blades. I meant rags, countertops, clothes, *me*...

Now, granted, if it was a superior product I'd use it in a flash. A little stain on the fingers doesn't mean much to bikers. It's sort of a "green badge of courage" so to speak.

But just because age-old Japanese polishers and most sharpening outlets use a certain series of products doesn't mean that we are permanently wedded to them, as well.

Mothers products are produced for car and motorcycle guys to clean metal. Their Billet paste is finer, cleaner and more uniform in production than most knife pastes.

*[*_BTW, as tinkers have applied their craft, Ben Dale has received an ever increasing demand for superior tools to produce better edges._

_Right now, today, as we speak, the best edge that can be produced is one that is polished with nagura, refined by Ben's 1200 grit stone, and then polished with a series of papers and pastes, finalized with Billet on pink tapes mounted on glaziers glass._

_(Good luck finding glaziers glass. I bought all Ben had. You can make your own out of very thick decorative glass used for coffee tables. Not only is it smooth, but it is also rigid.)_

_There are friends of mine in the knife trade that are mounting extremely fine Shapton Glass stones on fixed machines like Ben's Edge Pro and a Ken's handmade fixture, "The Gizmo." My advice is to bring your wallet. To utilize these finer stones you need several hundred dollars, with a full set surpassing a thousand._

_But Ken is a perfectionist, and those stones are worth every penny_.*]*


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I've heard from experienced sharpeners that oilstones need not be sopping wet with honing oil AND that one need not apply pressure too firmly while pushing the blade along the stone. High pressure will cause the edge to "curl" back upon itself so therefore medium to medium-light pressure will work best for achieving a good edge.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Nothing really "needs" to be sopping wet, but I've found that if I sharpen my knives with waterstones 'affogato' the swarf doesn't build up on anything. I've even seen swarf mar the decorative portion of the knife. (It's important to cleanse the swarf only in one direct, and this is off the edge.)

I have numerous rags at the ready, I tape the knife with blue painters tape (as is the Entire EP bed) and I have my stones soaking in water with a large towel on the floor where I stand.

I have what is known as a 'soft' or 'slow' hand. I touch every blade lightly.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

"Oilstones" are actually best used with water or just dry, not with oil. Waterstones need to be soaked, but it depends on the stone how much soaking is ideal.

Strong pressure is definitely not a good idea: let the stone do the work. If you're not getting adequate results with good technique and low pressure, you're using too fine a stone.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Yeah, thru years of experimentation, I, too, find that dry with medium pressure is the key, indeed. Although being well aware of the benefits of quality waterstones, I'll continue to use my oilstones for they work adequately for me. ...'luv my Norton 12 inch Combo India that came in its own metal case that serves as a sharpening tray.

And why water and not oil, pray tell?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not an expert on this, but BDL -- who is -- says that the hard-core "oilstone" lovers find oil clogging the pores of the stones, and apparently also trapping the swarf and such in the process, which makes the stone grind unevenly. To get rid of it, you have to clean the stones with kerosene, boil them, and so forth. This doesn't happen when you use the stones dry or with water.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I find that a liquid layer floats the particles off the stone and onto the table (surrounding area). Screw the kerosene cleaning and boiling. Mixing kerosene with the oil solves all and the thinner mixture results in a better edge on the blade.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

A rock is a rock until they finish it and prepare it for service. It's simply a matter on how they impregnate the stone.

Some are not stones at all, but compressed grit. Some are porcelain.

It's not that I'm in love with the water or the stone, but I am in love with precision. There are portions of my driveway (where I flatten larger flattening stones and very coarse sharpening stones) that seem to have the same abrasive content as an old oil-stone my FIL gave to me.

I try to work as fine as I can. Once removed, metal is very difficult to glue back on.

Even wood chisels need to be polished.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Pressed Rat and Warthog (E. Clapton) or pressed grit, it's all the same unless a genuine Arkansas ranging from fine to surgical. I'd really like to find a surgical stone somewhere or something comparable to it in order to apply a fine shine to the blade.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Contact me PM. I know a guy.


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## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Hmm - I thought the tag line of this forum was _"a food lover's link to professional chefs''_

This goes back to that scaling down stuff again Chico :bounce:. At least as a home cook, I don't see why there's any practical need to spend 'A few hundred bucks, at least based on a non specific term like 'better'.

*My working definition of knife debates*: A method by which 100 hobbyists with differing opinions on 'the better knife', can safely share a small room while armed to the teeth and know there's no danger - because somehow everyone will walk away happily knowing they were right. 

Unless you're a knife hobbyist, I'd have thought most home cooks that dip into this section are looking for advice on 'intelligent knife ownership'. Help with identifying the sweet spots that represent the balance between practical need and cost.

As per my definition above, you'll understand I don't think 'better' is necessarily a useful term when talking about knives. I would expect that terms like 'fit for purpose' can be more easily encapsulated, but that needs the person seeking opinions to frame their requirements:-

What's it for, how do they work with knives, why aren't they satisfied with their present arrangement, how do they care for knives etc...

Then you can look at the way the individual outlined their needs and approach, and hope to identify a range of options from within which you may suggest that one or more may be a 'better' choice for that person.

Chico, I love your energy and you've spoken before about the way in which the user approaches the mindset of making these choices. From what I read, you tend towards higher end purchases mean reduced limitations, better psychological state, and better outcomes.

Consider a cook who spends money on a high-end knife which they may or may not feel able to care for properly, and who then after reading further begins to believe it was additional money spent unnecessarily. I doubt it will put that cook mentally in a better place than the one whose choice though less expensive, is when scrutinised from a practical standpoint, a more appropriate purchase for their needs and ability to maintain it's care to a practical standard.

I agree if you cheap out and buy rubbish because you don't care, then your results will reflect that. Otherwise I think the knife will ultimately reflect your approach rather than necessarily define it.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Agreed. But it would be nice to "raise the bar" periodically. I'm having fun debating, and then providing a rebuttal when a thoughtful response gets printed. I once got an e-mail response from a professional chef. Last week I sent out an invitation to CT.

Hmmm. Depends on just what the concept of "better" entails. To a young, broke culinary student just having his/her knives sharpened is a step up. However, Iron Chef Morimoto might want me to wax his Lamborghini. Both might benefit in the kitchen on that day.

In many ways you have to go by anecdotal evidence, which admittedly might not always be a linear measurement. I have witnessed it, however. I've seen chefs "go Japanese."

In my home I was polishing Pampered Chef knives for my wife--until I got a little five-inch Hattori gyuto-ish knife. Now the PC knives lay idle in a knife block. In fact, I added a smaller Yaxell Ran to the kitchen, so even my wife has gone to laminates and she can't sharpen a whit.

That's a tough one. My Dad had only one jackknife his entire life, a small slip-joint he won at a country fair in the 1930s. It got the job done, and he kept it sharp. Liike all engineers, it looked as new when I last saw it as the day he acquired it.

I own Striders, which I believe are better than any slip-joint made. I think my Dad would smirk at "the waste of a dollar."

While I have the typical midwestern style home and kitchen, I believe a professional chef could cook my dinner and want of nothing. He may not have his personal roll, but would he complete a "purpose"? I cannot answer that.

Obviously there is middle ground. I think the better idea is an upgrade. There's a world of room between a clamped out Chicago Cutlery paring knife and a fugu sashimi. I understand that we are exchanging ideas here, and we only have a few paragrahs to proffer an opinion. But giving a culinary student a basic blue steel Japanese gyuto is for him an 'upgrade.'


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hall's Pro Edge, Arkansas Stones Arkansas Sharpening Stones Natural Native Stones , has the best surgical black Arkansas stones I've ever used or seen. They're as good as Norton transluscents. Hall and Norton transluscent stones are both also very good -- but too pricey for what they are. Norton blacks are extremely expensive and pretty much unavailable. I wouldn't bother with Dan's or any other brand.

A finishing stone like a surgical black or transluscent is quite dense, doesn't load up easily, easy to clean, and only requires flattening a couple of times a lifetime if that much.

However, considering the price a good Arkansas stone costs, if you're in it, you're in it partly for the nostalgia, partly for the hobbyism, and partly because you really hate flattening. That is, none of these stones polish as quickly nor as well as a Shapton Pro 5000# and certainly not as well as an Arashyama/Takenoko waterstone. From a pure performance or performance/value standpoint, I'd go with the Arashyama/Takenoko (same stone under either name, even though the Takenoko is listed as being a finer grit) stone over any Ark.

If you're finest stone to date is something like a fine India (the red surface on a Norton combination stone) you'd serve yourself well by buying an intermediate stone at the same time you buy the black. I suggest a soft Arkansas, also from Hall's.

With Arkansas stones: Don't buy "combination" stones. They are held together with glue and can eventually separate. When you buy an Ark, you're buying for the long term.. Do buy at least 3/4" thick. If you're buying an 8 x 2 x 1 (or 3/4) spend the money on a Norton "sharpening station." If you have the space for it, buy a 10" or 11" long stone, they make sharpening go faster, as does a 3" wide stone.

I run my soft Arkansas through the dishwasher after every multiple-knife sharpening session. I clean it with water, scouring powder and a brass (barbecue) brush when it starts looking really dirty -- after three or four sharpening sessions. I never scour the black, but run it through the dishwasher at the same time I do the soft because it's convenient. You could get away with cleaning it less frequently.

My experience is that even the best modern soft Arkansas is going to take some time to "open up." That is, they'll all be frustratingly slow the first few times you use them. But once you wear the lap off the stone, they're OK -- if not as good as the stones sold twenty five years ago.

The actual abrasive material in any Arkansas stone is a chert mineral called novaculite. The difference between grades is in the amount of novaculite and the density of the sedimentary matrix holding it. The reason I recommend Hall's is that the quality of Arkansas stones varies depending on the quarry and vein from which they were taken. Hall's leases a deposit on federal land which is not nearly as picked through as Norton's St. Gobain quarry, Dan's or the other major producer whose name escapes me (it doesn't sell under it's own name, but is responsible for the best "house" brands sold by woodworking, razor and music stores).

I also recommend Hall's for customer service.

That said, Norton makes wonderful sharpening materials generally, and excellent Arkansas stones in particular. Dan's are very good stones, too, as are the good house brands.

Any more questions? Just ask.
BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I've never used this particular stone. Do you know the grit range right off the top of your head?

The reason I ask is that Ken Schwartz (known as Ken123 of Gizmo fame) is now offering a 30K grit waterstone. While I just got a piercing stab of scalding pain in my wallet just mentioning it, the stone would be a great addition to upper-end cutting instruments that can hold that fine an edge.

Truth be told--and I admit it--bragging rights are fun, too!:lol:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris was right, as far as he went, about why not to use oil or water. However he left out one of the major reasons. That is, any fluid will act as a lubricant, and slows down the abrading process. Oil lubricates more than water, and should be avoided for that reason alone. The more strokes it takes to shape the edge on a given stone, the more opportunities to get it wrong. This is a big problem for freehanders, perhaps not as much as for people using guides.

Oil, even oil thinned with kerosene, spirits, or whatever, will mix with swarf and clog a stone much quicker than water; and very much quicker than dry or near dry. Any liquid (including water) will float the swarf and the particles of matrix and abrasive which come from the stone. Let's call it "gunk." When you push this gunk up and down the stone, you press it into the stone's pores, in effect filling the holes with a sort of plaster. It's called "clogging." Clogging changes the character of the stone's surface, and for the worse at that. It's not a big deal with waterstones because waterstones are made with much softer matrices. Their surfaces are designed to wear as they're used, constantly exposing fresh abrasive. (That's not entirely positive, though. Because waterstones do wear they dish and need flattening; and also get used up and need replacing). Worse still, if the gunk is left to dry, it clogs something awful. Not to belabor the point or anything but oilstones tend to clog easily anyway. You don't have to flatten or soak them, but you do have to keep them clean in order to have them work well -- if at all. 

Moving along with the parade of horribles, the gunk has a tendency to crawl up the knife above the bevel shoulder and create scratches on the knife face. 

On the other hand, floating the gunk with water as you sharpen makes it easier to get off with frequent rinsing. But to my mind, dry and near dry are sufficiently more efficient that it's worth the tiny bit of extra trouble to brush and rinse the gunk off and blot the stone dry during the sharpening process. Sometimes however, I do sharpen with a water spritzer because I like to screw around with this stuff. As in, I'm male and it's a hobby. It also keeps me in touch with how the stones perform wet as opposed to dry.

It's easy enough to find out for yourself. There are plenty of old fine India stones wrapped in oily rags -- black and completely clogged. Try sharpening it with it; then soak the old stone in kerosene overnight; soak it in water to get rid of the kerosene; run it through the dishwasher; clean it with a metal bristle brush and scouring powder; run it through the dishwasher a few more times; and try dry sharpening. Then tell me about the wonders of honing oil. 

For a really good discussion of dry sharpening, look for Jim Juranitch's book. It's available online and at most libraries. It was an article by Jim that got me to try dry sharpening.

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The Norton India I have is a combo of coarse and fine (orange color) grit and came in its own metal container affixed with rubber "legs".


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't use compounds much since I stopped shaving with a cutthroat (or at all) -- many years ago. 

I tried spray on diamond at a (woodworking) friend's house -- wow! He says the paste diamond compounds are worse than chromium dioxide as to mess. Chromium dioxide works extremely well, but as Chico said is very messy. I've tried using the wet compound (HandAmerican) with a little dry powder on top -- ala Japanese Knife Sharpening -- and thought it worked better and was a lot easier to control than simply loading a strop with powder. .

That said, the level of polish to be had with compounds, finer than 1/2 micron, while useful for razors, is a waste for almost all culinary knives. Basically it's a combination of hobbyism and overkill. Board contact dings the knives, and kitchen work scratches them too quickly for that level of polish to be meaningful. You might be able to make a case for a knife used exclusively for raw fish or some other specialized application in which you needed an extremely clean cut.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

IMO the Norton coarse/fine India is one of the best stones ever made. Your 11" stone is a Norton IM-2 -- widely available on the net. It's length is nice, so is the extra 1/2" width. It's dimensions make it work faster than any "standard" 8 x 2 -- even a coarse silicon carbide. The only drawbacks to an IM-2 are that's a bit more expensive than smaller aluminum oxides ("India" is Norton's trade name for their aluminum oxide stones) and silicon carbides (Norton calls theirs "Crystolon), and harder to store. Also, aluminum oxide is very slow when it comes to knives at HrC 59 or harder. If you've got the room and knives which can use it, it's a first choice. Also really nice is the box/sharpening stand. Another first choice. 

I recommend the 8" version, the IB-8, to anyone who can use an aluminum oxide (India) stone as the most cost effective and versatile stone there is. It's also very easy to store, and Norton makes a wonderful, 8" plastic box/sharpening stand. I use Indias myself: A coarse India for profiling and repair, and a fine India to establish the initial edge and/or pull the first wire. While I have 11" separates, most often I go to my IB-8 because it's small enough to store in a kitchen drawer along with my Arks.

You got yours from The Best Things, no? I think they're the only ones selling the metal box/stand along with an IM-2. 

BDL

PS. We're referring to the same Norton fine India. What you call "orange," I call "red." to be accurate, if falls between; and in your favor, is a bit closer to reddish orange than to orangish red.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

BDL, I thought your comment was timely and important in its own right. I started a new thread on non-traditional products. Thanks for the heads up.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Shortly most of my stones will be taking a kerosene bath!!! But what about my much smaller stones called slips and files that I use for gunsmithing (they measure 4" x 1/2" x 1/2")? Should they be 'watered' as well?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BDL stated: <<You got yours from The Best Things, no? I think they're the only ones selling the metal box/stand along with an IM-2.>>

Got mine (both the stone and metal case) directly from an abrasive supplier called Kennametal for the whopping price of $80, way back in 1995. Think I paid too much? Awww sh*t, way too much after perusing The Best Things. 8(
Also the grit on my stone is coarse/fine and the stone they offer is medium/fine (it's actually coarse/fine based on description given at the Norton website).

Also I've achieved better edges using less oil and therefore drier stones than when they're sopping wet. Water as the solvent along with a much drier stone sounds like a much better way to go.

BDL stated: <<run it through the dishwasher; clean it with a metal bristle brush and scouring powder>>

Should dishwasher soap be used when running the stone thru the dishwasher?

BDL stated: <<Also, aluminum oxide is very slow when it comes to knives at HrC 59 or harder.>>

Does anyone know the hardness of my older Sabatiers (at least 20+ years old) and my 1976 (purchased then) Henckels model 31061-260mm 10" No Stain Friodur made in Solingen?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Trust Norton on this (but not on Arkansas stone grits). The coarse India is about the same grit level and speed as the medium Crystolon -- around 180# ANSI. That's probably the source of the coarse/medium confusion. You'd have to write to The Best Things and ask him. The owner is incredibly honest and will give you a straight answer. I don't believe Norton (aka St. Gobain) in it's entire history ever sold a combi medium/fine India.

Absolutely. Once the stone has been soaked in kerosene, water, scoured, and is fairly clean it can be run with a regular load. The swarf which comes off won't hurt anything. The stone can also be boiled clean in a pan with a little dishwasher machine detergent. It's a bit of a PITA, but if you want to know how ask me.

Rockwell hardness of the Sabs depends on which Sabatier. Different companies hardened to slightly different levels. My guess is that they're nominally around 55-56, but act more like 56-57. Rockwell hardness of mid-seventies Henckels stainless is nominally right around 55, but the knives act more like 53 or so. That said, don't be fooled by Rockwell numbers. The real test is whether they can hold a 15* edge angle. Sabs can, old Henckels, Wusties, etc., are problematic. 

As to which stones are appropriate: If you can sharpen on India you can sharpen on Arkansas as well. No problem there. That said, the choice of India and Arkansas over waterstones is not a "performance" choice. Waterstones are better performers -- but they do need more maintenance and lack the nostalgia. "Not your father's stones," as it were. 

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'll stick with oilstones since they're all I know.

BDL stated: <<That said, don't be fooled by Rockwell numbers. The real test is whether they can hold a 15* edge angle. Sabs can, old Henckels, Wusties, etc., are problematic. >>

Not so with my older Henckels. For the first time I held it a around 15-20 degrees over my dry and unoiled bench stone and got the best edge I ever achieved on that blade. Henckels couldn't have done any better on that edge.

Aw ****, I'll teach my knife and stone to work FOR ME rather than the opposite! That stone will, indeed, work for me and I don't work for it. NO WAY!!!!! 'Time to get downrght brutal and scrape that ol' edge along a dry freeway.


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## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Upgrading seems a reasonable description Chico. It seems on occasion to be an angst ridden process though and I'm not sure why. I assume most folks in our respective countries just buy the knives they need, or get them as wedding presents etc. and go on about their business without ever worrying about it.

I know that unlike a working chef, I won't be prepping veg for a 12 hour stretch etc... I get that. On the other hand, the new chef spends hours identifying the perfect knife - lashes out a reasonable sum ensuring it's of good quality, well balanced, meets the criteria for sharpening preferences etc.., and is then advised not to take it into the work environment in case it 'walks'. 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely appreciate the value of finding the right knife, the 'keeper' as it were - it's great when that sort of thing happens. A beautifully finished higher value piece is a treat to see, and the depth that you guys bring to the subject is impressive. Nothing I have to say about making practical choices should be interpreted as belittling the skill and craft of the devotee.

At the moment though, I'm awaiting a lowly Victorinox 20cm Chefs Knife Broad Blade. I think that should be an acceptable working knife, and something that I can practice sharpening with to my hearts content without worrying about ruining it. I see it as a practical jumping off point, but if it turns out that it 'fits' then I won't worry if I'm still using the same knife a decade from now.

On the other hand, I bought my Mum a small set of Global knives as a present last Christmas. Between worrying about cutting herself and/or the fear of damaging the knives, they have yet to see any service.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

This one sentence brings up several good points.

First off, I'm amazed how a serious culinary student can go through school and not know about knives, their care, their construction and design differences. However, I see it all of the time. In fact, it's a comon thread here. Something is off the trolley when I meet a newb and my jackknife is sharper than anything in his roll. Just what exactly did he pay his teachers for?

You use of the word "criteria" is very important. A newb might get his first professional job at a steak house (blocking quarters), a new-age veggie hangout, or a full feature four star. He might not own the exact knife, but whatever his position he should get the right knife for his duties--and know why.

As for on-the-job theft, (sigh) I'm glad I'm a 'boomer. I couldn't find a job right away after college, so I buffed motorcycle parts for electroplating and moved up to set-up guy and finally a 'wrench.' You never, ever, ever "took" a fellow mechanic's tools--and I'm sure you can imagine why.

One night my wife and I are watching CSI and the plot surrounded employees of a kitchen. One sous-chef grabbed a fellow employee's knife and was sliced across the back of his hand for his ignorance. Whether this happens in real life with today's blood borne pathogens, I'm unclear. But the stark value system is much the same.

A thief is the lowest form of life. He steals from his fellow workers. He trades on their good will and their trust. And while I enjoy the conveniences of modern life, like the invention of electric starters, I sure wish older values still existed.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Tourist stated: <<A thief is the lowest form of life. He steals from his fellow workers. He trades on their good will and their trust. And while I enjoy the conveniences of modern life, like the invention of electric starters, I sure wish older values still existed. >>

THIS is what the internet is for and I've exposed many a thief and low-life using it.

Now back to oilstone cleaning. My question: what kind of wire brush is used for cleaning the stone once rinsed in kerosene? Brass or steel?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Any tool I use that must make contact and not disturb a decorative finish is made from brass. In fact, I bought a Lyman kit used in gunsmithing repairs that has "softer" style everything.

The hammer is compromised of three removable heads. Brass, steel and nylon. The shank of the hammer is brass, and the hollow handle holds a brass punch.

Many bore brushes are brass.

You should be able to find a low cost brass brush in any configuration at Sears, Napa or Home Depot.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Yes, I own that exact hammer, too, and its appearrance shows it! So it's a brass brush that's called for. THANKS!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

And I've literally worn out *Snap-On* and *Brownell's* catalogs simply by looking at them!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I use really cheap, brass barbecue grill brushes from Smart and Final. It's a convenient, not a considered choice. 

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Oh, no! Another knife heretic!

Don't you know that any knife tool that even gets to share a drawer with a fancy schmancy knife must have Togishi Union Label from the Masters of EDO Chamber of Commerce and Sushi Bar?:lol:

You start buying those correct tools off the back of a Snap-On truck and you're going to find yourself doing hard time next to me on The Group W bench.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

That's what pawn shops are for!!!! What I do is purchase a used if not beat-up screwdriver from the pawn shop and take it to a Snap-On dealer who will replace the old, worn out shank with a brand new one - free of charge and done in the sales truck itself.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I try to surround myself with reputable companies, myself. I just changed out a folder for a client yesterday.

The best story is about two working stiff guys who drove past the remains of a burned out home, when the driver saw the frame of a Dillon Precision press sticking out of the ashes. He stopped the truck, retrieved the frame and tossed it in the truck bed. His friend asked him why he wanted "the junk." The driver informed him that Dillon had a "No BS" policy for any damaged product. The driver received a brand new loading press in return.

In like manner, Mick Strider replaced a 400 dollar knife for free to a firefighter who lost his in an emergency call.

That's why Blue Ridge and JWW supply +75% of my products for resale.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

And the business that you're engaged in is?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I am a licensed Wisconsin Cutlery Reseller. Technically.

The license is from Wisconsin, but that is not my chosen territory. While I sharpen for anyone who ships me a UPS box, I sell only on the eastern side of Dane County, Wisconsin. Nowhere else in the entire state.

I would guess I sell 2/3's kitchen stuff, and 1/3 working folders. I used to sell autos to police and soldiers but it was just a hassle. I quit doing that over three years ago.

If I could I would go 100% kitchen knives, both sales and service. I like that type of work better, and I don't rep for the folders I truly like.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

No the best story was about the driver doing a year in the pokey for being in possesion of stolen property. :lol:
My experience with Dillion says that story is a lot of wishful thinking.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

That's too bad. Everything I have purchased has worked for decades. In fact, the only thing I ever had problems with was the handle on a Square Deal. It snapped after reloading +80K rounds, and they warranteed it with a single phone call.

That press is still working today.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

It was nothing major but in my experience their no BS policy doesn't extend beyond what they think is normal wear. I still have an old Pacifica press and only God knows how old or how many rounds she has seen.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Prior to cleaning with brush and dutch cleanser, my stones will soak in kerosene for about a week just to liquify all the accmulated internal gunk. I may even implement a change of kerosene midway thru the week-long soak.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Somebody's cleaned a carburetor before.

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

When it comes to carburator cleaning/rebuilding, B12 chemtool (or even acetone which is highly volatile and therefore flammable) is my solvent of choice. Otherwise its kerosene when it comes to oily/greasy car parts and whetstones.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I've used some pretty volatile stuff to clean automotive parts, but I don't like to bring such things into the house.

Is there some method you use to rinse "the cleaner from the cleaner." In other words, does every vestige of the kerosene have to be removed, or do you just let it dry outside?

I ask this because last year I inherited a oilstone from my FIL. It's pretty coarse, and it may be of some use when reshaping broken tips.

However, the stone is dirty, dusty, clogged and a victim of abuse and poor storage techniques. I said "Thank you" and proceeded to toss the thing aside.

But it is a nice flat tool, and I might be able to use it, if it is repaired. And I'm talking about *decades* of poor storage.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My plan is to drain and dry the stones and then place them outside for sun-drying.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for the update. I'm not sure that I will ever use this coarse oilstone, but like any good tool, it has a place in the work I do.

As stated, I can see using it in the repair of a badly broken tip. Many people make that repair by grinding the edge 'up.' I think the better course is grinding the spine 'down.' In a folder this keeps the edge inside the handle. (I do this by hand to avoid heat.)

However, on a kitchen knife grinding the spine down keeps the 'belly' or edge sweep in the same overall shape and maximizes the length of the undamaged portion.

You'd be amazed on how many calls I get because a client has dropped a knife. And strange as it might seem, kitchens might have concrete floors, not much better than the floor in my garage.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Great points worth utilizing. And, never attempt to catch a knife that's falling to the floor: nasty, nasty cuts will ensue.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I did that once--as a foolish young man. There was an old folder company that made a larger premium version of a Buck 110. I don't know what alloy they used, but the the stuff was hard, and kept a wicked edge.

I was sharpening it one day, and like a dumb kid I was daydreaming. The knife slid out of my hand, and because it was an expensive knife for the era--like 40 bucks--I did not want it to hit my soft carpeted floor. So I grabbed out for it.

The edge slid across my fingers, and I felt that knowing "feather-like" pain.

I scooped my other hand under the wound immediately, because as my Aunt Clara tells us about family reunions, "There will be blood."

Natch, I caught the initial spurt, ran to a sink, and then waited for my wife to return home.

Ehh, that's how dumb kids learn.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

On balance, the coarse Indias and Crystolons are about as good as any super-coarse waterstone. Coarse waterstones are almost always very soft and dish quickly. That means flattening several times in the course of a difficult knife or a major repair. The "oilstones" relative lack of maintenance requirements, balances their lack of speed and their coarse scratches.

Something I've said before bears repeating for those getting into sharpening. While I use medium and fine oilstones, and am all too delighted to discuss them, I don't recommend them anymore for people putting together their first sharpening kit, or thier first quality sharpening kit. Waterstones are that much better. Naniwa Superstones in particular, because of their excellent feedback, minimal soaking requirements, relatively simple maintenance and relatively reasonable pricing, are ideal for "honing" your skills. If I were putting together a waterstone kit for myself, I wouldn't choose any of them (with the possible exception of the 10000#). But if you're just starting or making the first step up, they'll serve you better than anything else for a couple of years. 

When repairing the broken tip of an important knife I try to work from both top and bottom, attempting to retain the tip to midline relationship of the design. If it's a knife that takes a lot of abuse, especially a small knife, I work towards useful geometry. So, I'll work from the top to create a sheep's foot on a parer that's going to be doing garde manger, decorative tip work, or from the bottom to repair a European style boning knife. 

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

If the knife is a fixed blade or a kitchen knife (and if the client left me enough metal), I try to do exactly that. I also try to "blend the shape" of my new curve to the existing slope so that the repair appears seamless.

You don't get that latitude when repairing folders. The tip of the knife has to close below the grip line when closed or the point will slice through the pocket or cut the client.

Each repair is unique onto itself. When a client says he "broke the tip" that could mean a small divot near the tip, or he broke the blade completely in half.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Someone mentioned that following the soak in kerosene, the stones are scrubbed with dutch cleanser and a brass brush and then placed in the dishwasher for several washings. My question is will there be a kerosene odor lingering inside of the dishwasher?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Soak or boil the stones in water first -- either before or after scouring them.

BDL


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