# Need some opinions...



## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

I havn't posted here for a while, but I need some help.
I am the Head Chef at a decently high volume restaurant.(we have 8 people on the line at once) 
But anyways, I need some advice from fellow Head/Exec chefs, Sous Chefs, or whoever can lend a word.

My head sous left 2 weeks ago, and the new sous that I hired started on monday. Now granted its only thursday, but I have some major bones to pick with this guy. When I interviewed him, he showed me all his credentials, and his work experience, so on and so forth.
The man is 39 years old, and has also worked in many different restaurants around the Boston area. 
Cutting to the chase, I gave him the Job.
I came in at about 740 on monday morning, and he was already at the Restaurant waiting for me to open it up, so I thought it was a good sign.
PLAIN AND SIMPLY its been 4 days and the guy SUCKS. And believe me, I dont like saying that about people that are slow learners in the kitchen, but from the credentials he was throwing in my face and the experience that he had in other restaurants, I dont know how much longer I can wait for this guy.
He cant do a thing for himself. I told him to clean chicken while I set part of the line up, (this was on his first day so I just wanted to get his feet wet) but to him, cleaning chicken was putting in a rondo and running water over it. When I came back he was roasting garlic, I asked him why the chicken was in the sink, and he said he cleaned it!!!!
I then had to explain to him he need to separate the 2 breasts, and cut the fat off, evidently he didnt know what I was talking about, so AGAIN I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
He just plain sucks, I'm sorry. 
The past 3 days I've had to have him on salad station. I am paying this guy alot of money (as head sous) and he is doing work that I can have my 17 year old prep boy do, who I pay 9 an hour.
I dont know what I should do.
For christ sake the guy cant even expedite the tickets when they come in.
I cant/shouldnt fire him after less than a week can I?
I really dont know wat to do. I was hoping this guy would be good and I can train him well, and he could eventually open the restaurant because I cant be working open to close 6 days a week, especially with the kids going back to school. 
Any advice?


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I ran across this same thing a few months ago, hired a 50ish woman who had years of experience, ran her own kitchen, worked for years at a hotel as exec....had worked for one of the best pastry chef's I've known.

long story short, she was slow....very very slow, she burned multiple batches of pate sucre with euro butter, she took 40 minutes to fiddle with a cheese platter until I'd finally had enough and slammed it out in 15 minutes.
My 19 year old niece was in the kitchen....with no experience she asked questions. The older hire was not asking questions but fumbling around....

So, were my expectations so high and my explainations not sufficient? I don't know....probably a combo. But man I really resented cutting that higher check with lower return/loss of product. My normal OP is to hire experience and pay for it.....next time I'll have a learning curve....start at this rate and work up, if you work well you move up quickly.

Catering is not restaurant work....but thought I'd offer up that learning curve.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

I dont really have time to give this guy a learning curve. I need he to be had of the line. Its hard to cut the guy slack when your doing 200 counts from 12-2, and thats only for lunch. Which is the only time hes worked so far, i would like to see him 4-1030 when dinner rush comes.
Bottom line, I hired him because he said he had experience at running a line.
IM SOOOOOO frustrated and really not wanting to go to open the restaurant in the AM.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Chef, its time to terminate the dude. You shouldn't need to train up this guy to be a sous if he's lacking basic skills. It's costing you a lot more then his salary to keep him on staff. Think of all the time you'll have to spend cleaning up his messes and covering for him. Think of how crew morale will be with his ineffectual leadership.

Take it as a lesson to check references and have canidates do a stage. Most places I've worked at brought sous up from within or the new sous was someone that the chef had worked with before.

Would it be possible to move #3 up to #2?


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## nowiamone (Jan 23, 2005)

You don't say if you checked his references, and called previous employers. 
So I'm assuming you didn't. But I will share that I once had a hire, who wasn't who he said he was, found out when I called references and they told me he was still employed, in fact he answered the phone. Taught me to ask for a look at the driver's license.

Over the years I've come of the opinion that "I tell them it's not working out for me and today was their last shift." I say no more than " that it's not working out for me" and I have yet to have anyone ask "why not?" Either they already know or they don't care what the problem was. It is always a feeling of relief to have it over with. If you don't think it will get better, bite the bullet.

Suggest that check his references if you haven't. It might re-enforce what you are thinking. Do what you have to do. Also, suggest from this time forward that you hire with a 30 day probation period.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

ChefTorrie,

Not knowing what the Labor Laws are in your state..... I would still have to say you have two choices. Either give the guy a fighting chance to reach around, grab a handfull of hair and pull his head out of his assssss or..... Explain that things just aren't working out and take your losses immediately. 

If you honestly can say the ability is not there now is the time. The longer you wait the more difficult it will become to cut the guy loose when you really need to. Most HR folks cringe at this approach since they want you to nurse, nurture and just about carry the person while letting them suckel at the ....... Well bullpucky! I hate that approach. Months can be spent writting the person up, laying out 30, 60, and 90 perfomance objectives and stillyou are no better than you were when you started things. In fact you're more frustrated and beat to he!! since you've had to do all the extra crap.

I know this sounds harsh but having been in this position before and following the misguided advice of the well meaning HR person..... Let's just call tha advice hindsight. It always seems to be 20/20.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

No need for a probation period if you are in an at-will state. Sometimes if you include probation period type phrases in the employee handbook or offer letter you can damage the at-will relationship. This can come back to hurt you if you term an employee and they decide to litigate.


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## chefraz (May 10, 2007)

Did you call his references? ditch him if he's no good you can't train someone with credentials they are trained already..your just got a smooth talker. someone that thinks once he got his foot in the door he could learn what to do.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

You can't afford to stress out over this. It is not your job to be a culinary instructor. Give him his walking papers. Tell him it's not working out, you cannot forsee it working out, and wish him better luck elsewhere. (Denny's for instance)


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Most labor laws in the US accept that 30 days from time of hire is a probationary period whether stated in the original employment contract or not. Therefore, you are within your rights and well protected if you let him go within a 30 day period.

That said, I think you should be a straight shooter with him regarding his obvious lack of skills and general knowlege. Just be direct and say something like "Your work since you been here does not measure up to the standards and expectations I have for a Sous Chef. You need to be able to clean and prep chicken, etc, etc, without being told how. These are some of the basic skills I take for granted that a qualified sous at your pay scale should know. Clearly, this is not the case in this situation." You could then either give him the choice of accepting a less skilled-lower pay position (if available) or leaving.

Do not discount the affect his bungling has on your other crew!

On another, obliquely related note--I've noticed that several posters here have used the phrase "reach around" as a euphamism for acceptable, capable and courteous behavior. This is interpreted in some quarters as an *extremely offensive* reference to certain types of sexual behavior and in MHO should not be used in this forum. Of course, that is up to the moderators.

One might also look at the origins of the phrase "rule of thumb" and while I'm not trying to be some kind of PC language police, it would be fine if this was dropped from our accepted vernacular.


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## jigz369 (Apr 20, 2007)

Hey Chef, fire the bum!
I have always done working interviews for any hires to a senior position. Bring your next possible hire in for a shift and see if his "credentials" match his abilities. This has saved me on several occasions by not hiring a bum and having a certified professional on the job.
Just my opinion though.....


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Dude, you do not want to refer to it as a employment contract unless you have an actual written contract with the employee because if you do, you will destroy the at-will relationship.

This means that you have less of an ability to fire the employee for whatever reason. This also gives a terminated employee added leverage in litigation if you did not term for "just cause."

Furthermore, several courts have found in situations where the employer had a probationary period in the handbook, even in an at-will state and even without a written contract, that there was an implied in law contract with the employee. This is usually based on the handbook implying that after the probationary period, the employee would only be fired for good cause.

This destroys the at-will presumption, which no employer should want to do.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Chef,
I'm a little surprised by the hesitation. This is not a personal decision, it's a business move. Above all, you must protect the operation and your staff.
Pan


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## psycho chef (Feb 1, 2007)

I've never hired anyone until they've worked a shift or up to a week for more senior positions. At the beginning it is clearly stated that they are "trailing" and when finished we'd talk about salary etc.. It's like an audition. You tend to see the best of what people have when they are working to earn the position. And you get to decide if what they're asking for is fair. 
After two days with this guy I would have told him to hit the road and only paid him what every other "trailer" gets: $50 a day. So I'd be out $100 bucks but would have learned a very important lesson: call people's former jobs and never just take someones word when it comes to cooking and running a kitchen. The proof is in the pudding.

Resumes mean nothing


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Dear foodnfoto, 

WOW! For 25yrs I have used that and this is a first. I certainly hope that whenever you see the words "reach" and "around" used together in a sentence that images of a "sexual" nature do not continually pop up in your mind. I understand that by even responding to you it gives the whole situation some sort of validity but that is my nature. I understand you have been here a long time and mean no disrespect with the reply. I just wish people would quit reading between the lines or putting actions in others mouths. Ya know you could always PM me if you have a problem/question with my reference to something in a post. Again part of my nature to respond to such things.

Yet, For the record...... 
There is, was nor ever will be an implication of a sexual nature in my use of that particular statement. In most of the Chefs' and restaurant circles I have been around it refers to having "one's head up their asssssss" and "provides a way to extract such". Unless told by the moderators or Nicko himself I will continue to use it as a metaphor for the actions that the described Sous Chef has displayed.

I offer no apology but hope this explaination will help clear the air and your mind as to it's intended reference.

Jeezus what is this Bevis and Butthead???


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

I think he doesn't want to get stuck with all the workload since he's got kids and all. It's the "Bad help is better then no help" theory.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

That is part of it tincook, but not all of it.
Here is the rest of it.
I am only the Head Chef, I am not the owner of the restaurant, and here is a part that I purposely did not tell you guys, the owner referred this guy and told me to interview him.
USUALLY, I would not be hesitant to fire him, but its the fact that I dont want Barry (store owner) to get upset or irritated that I didnt give his "guy" a shot. But I have been thinking, and when I took the Head Chef Job at this restaurant 6 years ago, he gave me FULL CONTROL of kitchen operation, so I know I shouldnt be hesitant, but you guys prolly get it, its just the whole idea. But it looks like i'm gonna have to do what I have to do, which is let him go, and it may come as soon as tomorrow.
I'm going to tell you what he did, and you guys will probably think im lying, but it is the gods honest truth.

I told him to make cannoli shells, he put them in the oven.
I told him to make Volcano Cakes, he deep fried them.
Seriously, and ridiculous as it sounds, its the truth.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Jeeeeeez, this guy is some sort of culinary dyslexic.

Tread carefully Chef. Hopefully you can do some damage control instead of firing the guy outright. No need to piss off the Owner.

If you can manage it, have the Owner get tired of the sous' antics so he will terminate the sous for you. Till then, maybe find a corner to stick him in where he can't broil the salads or whatever.


Edit: I would also remove any names from the posts, just in case.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

I wish that I could wait for the owner to fire him, but he is rarely ever in the kitchen. I really think im gonna have to do it tomorrow morning, because he is on the schedule for the PM rush. We will easy to 230+ covers and our line, while not tiny, is not big enough to have a statue in. I think im going to make one of my Asst. Chefs, Head Sous. I know he will be willing to do it, and has one of the best, if not THE best work ethics i've seen. 
The only think that I am regretting is that i will have to be on the line tomorrow night, while my daughter is having her piano recital, but I guess i'll have to suck it up.


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## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Things to consider...

There may be underlying reasons why Barry asked you to give "Scooter" an interview, such as an out of work family friend sort of thing, or what ever.

You need to let Barry know, before you let Scooter go, exactly why you are doing so.

Explain that you get the impression that Barry has an interest in Scooter's well being, and you thought it might be best to discuss the past week's evaluation of Scooter's capabilities with Barry.

This is the point where you (politely and clinically - no extranious adverds or adjectives) detail each and every gaffe that you can recall, and simply state that the various skills that you expect to be exhibited by your head sous chef have not be fully seen in Scooter's performance so far.

Reinforce the notion that you have a kitchen to run, and within that responsibility you need to ensure that not only are your portions of food sized to turn a profit, but also the "seasoning" of skills/labor/salary added to each dish are just right. A 'dash' of solid experience beats a 'pound' of befuddlement.

If Barry's interest in Scooter is of a personal sort, express that you wish you had the luxury of time for ramping up Scotter's skills to meet the requirements of the head sous job description, but regretfully this is neither the time nor position for what seems to require in-depth training...

Ask Barry what his thoughts are at this juncture...

At which point have a back up position in mind, just in case this is one of those "mercy jobs".

Best of luck!!!


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

I'm not sure trashing the Owner's pet hire to the Owner's face is the way to go.

But definitly ask the Owner his opinion on how the Sous is doing. Maybe even have the Owner watch and evaluate the sous' performence for himself.

If the Owner says that everything is going GREAT! Then you have a huge problem. If he expresses some concern, then you can go into how much money this guy is costing him rather then focusing on what a slow, stupid, putz the sous is. Always dollarize.

I'm sorry you have to miss your daughters recital. My dad was away on business most of the time when I was a kid too. We've got a pretty good relationship though, and if anything, the time we did spend as a family is more precious then ever. Hang in there dude.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Yes, but how much longer can I keep this guy in my kitchen. Im starting to think if I just let him go, I can explain to the owner what happened. I will also have all of the other peoples on the lines opinion too, which are all that he stunk! I dont know. Honestly if I have to work with him tomorrow, and he shows the same Non skills and NON leadership and NON everything, I really might put him on dishes or potsink. But, that might even make things worse. I Really dont know what to do.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

I just don't want you to get fired in the process. If you think the Owner will back you up, then by all means fire him. You know him better then any of us will.

I wonder about this guys connection. Remember back in the day, when the owners and managers would put their dealer on payroll just so they had easy access? Or even the classic hostess is sleeping with the owner, gets promoted to manager, and wrecks the FOH but won't get fired?

I can only guess about this guy you are stuck with, but it seems to me that he doesn't want the responsability or the work. He may even leap at the chance to get out of it. I'd be letting him go early, giving him as many breaks as possible. Assign him some easy prep or staff meal. Make him do inventory, every night.

If I thought I could get away with it I'd have looking for my left handed parsley curler.

The tricky part is keeping the rest of the staff happy and informed of the situation.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Bring in Scooter and another strongman, and go to the recital.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Having been recently "enlightened" to the full nature of your situation..... Just talk to the owner. Obviously you're in charge of the kitchen because the owner has faith in your abilities, judgment and professional opinion. 

Personally, When I suggest a person it's only to open the door for them. It's then up to that person to walk in and then keep from getting thrown back thru the door be it still open or closed.

Just a side note....Having all the info upfront makes giving advice a whole lot more effective and leaves less room for misguided statements.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

OldSchool, sorry that I did not present you with adequate information my first post...
Tincook, I wish I could have him do busy work or inventory or something like that, but I'm paying this guy serious money. My head sous starts at 59k salary. I CANNOT be paying that for somebody to chop me up a mirepoix or to salad prep or depoullage stock, I just cant do that.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Yeah, but he can't do what you are paying him for anyway, This is just to keep him out of your way so service isn't harmed, until you can term him safely, which is probally going to happen soon. Right?


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Im hoping so tincook.
My daugther called me when I was at the restaurant telling me about a brand new song that she is playing at the recital that no other girls or boys are playing, just her.
This is such a dilemma.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Awww man. Did you get a tape?


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## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

"Trashing" the pet hire wasn't the objective.
If the guy can't perform, that is the primary basis for removal.
You have to have concrete reasons, not just "He isn't working out..."
If ChefTorrie has the responsibility of running the kitchen, then there has to be authority given to mold the team, otherwise, it's a hollow job title.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I have not yet been into the upper ranks of the kitchen, but nothing is more discouraging to watch as a soldier on the line then innefficient leadership.

If a Sous is not up to par with what should be expected of him/her, the confidence of employees will crumble on you also because the perception is that you has confidence in him and hired him (even though there are more details to this story).


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Exactly, and they do not know the details, I try to run a professional kitchen and I do not like to tell the business that goes on with me and the Owner.


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## nowiamone (Jan 23, 2005)

ChefTorrie, 
Why don't you meet with the owner and tell him that you need to know what he sees as the obligation to the new hire, as he is having a negative impact on the entire kitchen's preformance, and proceed to tell him where the shortfalls are. 
There is nothing wrong with you asking him why this hire is important, and forcing his hand in the decision, after all you and the owner are part of the same management team. Chances are the owner will back pedal fast.


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## dragun (May 23, 2007)

I know when i go for the sous positions i have had i have always had to do a oral interview first and then a tasting to see if i had some sence of the kitchen and then finally i had to do the working interview where i had to work shifts for the weekend to see if i was capable. I think its a great way to interview. Heck i do the working interview with my line cooks. Say hey come in and pull a shift and we will talk after. Some People look great on paper and can talk a big talk. Can they walk the walk. 

As far as your hesitations... someone with those credentials should not need to be trained. Its business, plain and simple. As friendly as you might want to be with the staff, you are there to make the hard choices and let people go if they are unable to perform the work they are there for.

Just my .02

Andy


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

The new guy might even realize he doesn't fit in and might be waiting and wanting for you to let him off the hook.


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## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

CT - the guy has lied to you and shouldn't spend a minute more in your kitchen. Either that or he has foxed his way through his other jobs. He's obviously not capable - you need someone who can do the job. It is a business, not a personal relationship. If someone was stealing from you you'd sack them pronto - he is doing the same in effect.

In future -I'd go with a trial period -a week or whatever you think will work. It's obvious after a couple of hours though I think if someone won't work out.

We brought a trial period into our business (not cooking) after a lot of hassles with people who made claims as to what they were capable of but turned out totally incompetent. We keep to the trial period always now.

Good luck with his replacement!!!!!

DC


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Guys, I agree with you. If this were any other employee, I would fire him in a second.

But this Sous has a conection with the owner (who was the one to recomend him for the job). Thus the delicate treatment.

You can't fire the Sous unilaterly without stepping into deep political sh*t. The owner needs to involved in the decision so ChefTorrie doesn't get blowback.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

WHAT?!?!??


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

What is the WHAT!?!?!? about? 
I've also had this conversation with many people on other forums.
Where I live this is a very reasonable salary for a Head Sous.
You may live somewhere where living costs are low and it is not that expensive to live in your state. 
Why how much do you think they should make.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Yeah I know, I mean for that kind of money your sous needs to be able to do more than peel onions.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

He is let go. I did it last nite. I told him this would be his last shift.
He really didn't complain that much and worked his last shift well. Well, not that great, but, did some prep for me Ha! Now I just have to talk to the owner which I am going to do tomorrow morning. Thanks for all of your input guys, I really appreciate it.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Excellent Chef! :chef: I bet the mood in the kitchen is 100% better.

Good luck on meeting with the owner.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Chef,
I was the one who questioned your hesitancy in terminating. I see now that there is much more involved.
I saw some posts going in the direction of labor department. I was short on time that day but wanted to relate that sometimes, fast movement is the way to go in this situation normally. I was once brought up before the labor board, I started telling them that I had givin this person a chance and R A. explaining that they couldn't bring up mixes, bake, or anything of their job requirements from day 1.Although their resume said with thier experience, this was a non issue. Well needless to say I had lost. The main reason being that if this person was this bad I would have terminated sooner.
Just a thought.
Tough situation for you, you'll handle it.
Oh, I see you handled it, cuddos
59K for a 40 yr old. Isn't it funny how this industry is so primitive we think that is a good salary for someone with experience
I figure that I've been in the industry for 3+ decades. With my education and work experience I should be up in the 1.5 million a year as compared to some other fields like financial or medical. People wonder why I just laugh when they ask me if my son is going to get the business or work in the hospitality industry. That might be the only thing that may cause me to disown him:lol:
The only rule I have between us is that he not even wait tables, buss, etc. in college
Sorry, off topic.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Panini- 

Are you talking about an unemployment benefits hearing or something else? Here in CA, U/E always seems to side with the ex-employee. It's a good reason to keep written documentation for any disipline issue or Performence Improvement Plan.


At least Chef Torrie's business won't have a large U/E exposure since the Sous was only employeed for ~2 weeks or so...


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Thank you Tincook.

p.s. panini, are you emplying that 60K a year is not a good enough starting salary?


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I can peel onions and even cook rice. Pay me 60k


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

ChefTorrie,
No, our profession is so antiquated and primitive, most salaries don't come close to those in other fields with experience and schooling. I just happened to catch the local town meeting on cable and their job postings at the end were for baseball field technitions, road crew assistants, etc. The lowest paying position started at 21.87 hr. benefits included. The average mid range kitchen worker here is 10-12 hr. with experience.
The people I work with would be considered extremely overpaid for their positions. BUT, my PC has been with us 21 yrs and our newest employee has been with us for 8 yrs. We do have a little break-in period where they are not considered an employee until they start earning a yearly percent of the operation. That can be 1-18 months.
PS Have an opening for entry level decoration/production in Oct. Our one apprentice is off to J&W. 
paninicakes.com
Also, Here, unemployment is a percentage. If someone worked 5 months, comes to you and works a month and moves on. I have to pick up that 20 percentage for up to 18 months. That is not the bad part. The increase in your total u/e can surpass what you pay for them by a lot.
Chef, I have taken a break from CT and it has become apparent that I'm back to square one when trying to get my fingers to explain what my mind is thinking, sorry.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

No big deal panini, I was just trying to figure out what you meant.


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

Here in the UK we have a month or so to get rid of people. I was once in a similar situation. I told the lady in question that the job she had been hired for was perhaps not suited to her and offered her something else. I could almost SEE the relief in her face!!


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

BombayBen, with a name like like that you will probably get lots of requests for Indian cooking suggestions.

cool:smiles:


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

No problem - Indian is my thing!!


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I grew up in India and had lots of requests and I'm not an expert in Indian cooking at all. I recently posted at IndiaMike that Indian chefs would be appreciated here.


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## nowiamone (Jan 23, 2005)

So tell us what happened when you met with the owner???


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## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

anyone hired in a position of responsibility is given a 1 day payed trial interveiw after the oral one. Mostly you know straight away. Afterthat it's a weeks trial. If you dont know after a week then...............
Afterthat it's 3 months.
I just had to let an commi go after3 months. Still asking me "what will i do now" AARGHH!


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