# Knives...lets get started.....



## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Seems like this is a good place to start. At nearly 60 I've been cooking for roughly 44 years. As the story goes Pops died Mom went to work and I went into the kitchen at the tender age of 16. I've gotten quite a bit figured out since then. BTW, Mom was the largest caterer in Sacramento, Ca for around 25 years. At age 18 I was offered a full ride to New York Cullinary Institute, however I declined the offer. At that point I was engaged in experimentation and discovery of recipes for mom. Proofing recipes that looked interesting and coming up with a few of my own. So moving forward. I've ways enjoyed cooking and the tools used to do so. Knives of course are a focal point for the cook. I've read a fair bit here on this forum, enough to know Shun are generally frowned upon and not held in very high regard. I'm just coming off of a set of Shun Kramers which aside from the fact they were right handers, I'm a lefty, I liked quite a bit in terms of performance. After about a year into using them I realized I started to like them less and less because of the right handed D configuration. I've owned them for around 5 years now and I just bought the Kajis as replacement for the neutral grip. The Kramers go to my right handed girlfriend. It's an 11 piece set and I didn't pay much for them. 9 knives around $75 per knife plus the block and Steel. I am interested in contrasting the Shuns I just bought with knives that will essentially be recommendations of forum members. A chefs, paring, Santoku and and one other to be decided,so 4 knives. The knives selected with the exception of the chefs knife may be modified depending on recommendations. I also have a sharpening stone set up that I would like some input on. Pic below:





  








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Essentially within reason I'd like to find out the possible. I'd like to have fun with this exercise. So let's avoid pitched battles, please.

I'll check back in later. Off to lunch I go!

Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi 

Thought I'd answer a few Questions that I know will come.

Residence....I live in Incline Village, NV, USA

Budget....Flexible

Largest blade size ......12+ inches I think.

Grip style.....Pinch....skill level probably average. No formal training.

Current sharpening....... some stone work if necessary, steel and ceramic most of the time.

Cutting boards.....3 wood (1 small round @ around 7", a 14" x 24" ash and walnut. These I made as a kid and an oval oak board. I'll probably need to buy a nice end cut wood board. None are end cut.) Quite a few synthetic boards both large and small.

Foods I cook.....I cook all kinds of foods. Casual to Elaborate...

Number of people I will cook for.....more than a hundred in a single event.


I already have a variety of stones for sharpening. You tell me if I require something else. I think it's a fairly complete kit. I have sharpened and maintained knives in the past perhaps not to the level described in the primer on the previous page. I do have practice knives and the time to learn this skill.

More questions just ask away...

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Do you know Jacob Burton of Truckee? You might want to chat with him for some realistic advise to balance against that which you may get here.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Brian, No I don't know him. What restaurant does he work at?

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Stella at the Cedar House. He's a really realistic kind of person.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

I'll check it out! He's 20 minutes from me!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Realism is relative. For instance, PM steel knives are amazing, but to get the most out of them you have to know how to microbevel.

Now I've given up bashing Shun, even though they're overpriced and known for having too much belly, clunky grinds and decals that wear right off. Oh Darn, little back-sliding there. Their HT has improved though, but they still don't compare to others, especially a benchmark like Tanaka if you are talking SG2, or Takamura, Itou, etc, etc. The large-batch processes Shun uses just can't compare to what these relatively small producers do.

Now take a look at Rick Theory for a moment:






He can not only do that, but do it that all day long, for quite a good number of days without touchup, with some of the knives he uses.

What do you want your knives to do for you?

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick, I want them to perform. Have the capability to take a superior edge and hold it. Effortlessly be put through their paces, i.e. Great ergonomics. For the Chefs knife I think I'd like more of a French shape, length lets talk about that a bit, pros and cons.. I've only had the German shape and it sounds to me like the French shape is a little more friendly and efficient. Let's make this knife number one. Then we can move on to the others. 

Also is my sharpening kit complete or do I require something else. I plan on hand sharpening. 

Thanks,
Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Having knives with both German And French forms, I keep returning to German as the most efficient and comfortable. You really should try French; maybe it suits your needs.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Lol! I guess Ima gonna find out for myself.

This is going to be interesting. Just looked a the Tanakas, very nice.

What length do you fellas recommend in a chefs knife, 8"-10"?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Yes, 8 to 10. For me it depends on what is being cut and the size of the cutting board I'm using. With lighter knives I prefer 10; with heavier (like Henckels or Wushof) I like 8. For big stuff like watermelons or hams... Big knife. Just like preferred knife form... Experience determines what's best for each individual.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick hate it when I say this, but I'm sure he'll indulge me once more. My two favorite knives is Shun Premier and an old Forgecraft. My only real regret with the Shun Premier is that I didn't get it in 10 inch. It is sharp and light enough so a longer blade would be quite comfy to work with. All of my others are good in their own right, but these 2 are my "go t" knives.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Brian,
The Shun Kaji's are quite nice. Thinner blade than the Kramers I had. Very German for sure. They make it in a 10" I think. Pricey though. I got my Kaji's's at 60% off the the "sale" price, so for me they were cheap ($684 I think). 9 knives the block and steel or an 11 piece set.

The Shun Kaji 8" Chefs knife,





  








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The Itou's are bad ass Rick!

Looks like I'm going to spend some money!


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick, I think the Tanaka's are more my speed. Very workman like. Just love the shape and the Damascus he does.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Shun has upped their game and that is why I try to restrain the negative comments when they come up.  But like you say there are some real badass knives out there.  And Japanese knives definitely tend toward a French profile, or flatter even.  

As far as size, many including myself feel an 8" too small.  A 240 (about 9.5") is considered ideal for home prep and line work.  But if you're making mountains of stuff or breaking down big things like squash and swede of course 10"+ is the place to be.

Something to keep in mind, SG2/R2 is great steel, but also rather brittle, and knives like the Tanaka are very thin at the edge.  And whereas some people very experienced with these knives do use them for for splitting squash and the like, they have been known to chip out big on those tasks even in hands experienced with the breed.

My feeling here is get a 240 in the Tanaka Ironwood category, and something tougher in a bigger knife to go along with it.

Stones are another thing you could enjoy spending some money on, so tell us what you are using now.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Okay Rick, 
I heard ya loud and clear. So what if I told you I ordered a Tanaka R2 240mm Gyuto Ironwood tonight, just a beautiful knife...no one had them except an outfit in Australia... Not sure how long it will take to get here, but they are reputable, I hope. LOL! I can't wait! Would you take a look at my sharpening set up and let me know what I don't have? Oh and where should I order a nice cutting board from?
Mike

P.S. Rick, Look above, I have a picture of all my sharpening stones! I'm just a bit ahead of the curve! The blue one I think is a stone leveler let me know if you need another pic of it. The slotted round one I'm not so sure about. I bought it a while ago and dang I just plumb forgot what the hell its for.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Winter Squash splitting sounds like Cleaver work to me. Well not to mention if someone doesn't like my food guess what I'm walking out with, uhhhh ya a plutowski![emoji]128526[/emoji]


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

That's a knife for which my lust has not diminished for

Big congratulations, and do gush lots about it when you have played with it for a bit


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> That's a knife for which my lust has not diminished for
> 
> Big congratulations, and do gush lots about it when you have played with it for a bit


Thanks!


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

I envy you, i admire you and i will rob you.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

If your australian vendor is knivesandstones, you are in good hands. What are the stones exactly? Hard to tell from the picture. 

King 1000\6000, suehiro what grit? Whats the one on the right?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Congradulations!

Looks like a 10K superstone on the right.  They're not fancy but I'd say Mojak has enough.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> If your australian vendor is knivesandstones, you are in good hands. What are the stones exactly? Hard to tell from the picture.
> 
> King 1000\6000, suehiro what grit? Whats the one on the right?


Millionsknives,

Knives and Stones Correct! Excellent, I like supporting good companies!

The Stones:

Suehiro.....300 grit Flattening Stone. I'll need instruction on how to use this.

King.....1000/ 6000 Combo Stone. I need to get a stone holder base for this guy.

Naiwa Chosera.....S10,000 Super Stone.

A Ceramic Honer cleaner, kind of like an eraser.

And these:

I think this is the stone you use to get your mud started. Don't quote me on this!





  








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This is a Shapton #120 Surfacing and Conditioning Stone. Exactly how you use it, I'm not sure!





  








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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

My Christams pressies have timed perfectly

Both arriving on the same day

Edit: Apologies Mojak, in no way was this a thread hijack, just sharing in your knife joy





  








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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> My Christams pressies have timed perfectly
> 
> Both arriving on the same day
> 
> ...


Beautiful Knives! Sharing is good. This is how I will learn, so bring it on!
Who produces them and what steel or steels ar they constructed of? Ah, okay a Zwilling Kramer and you'll need to translate the Japanese for me on the other one!
Mike


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Konosuke hd. looks like a good holiday!


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

To be honest Mojak, overwhelmed is where I am right now. Both are some of the most amazing things I've seen, let aloe owned

Two so different knives, both so beautifully done

I can't begin to compare, but for 3 hours in, 3 onions later and lots of fondling, the Kono has an ethereal magic. It very nearly disappears

The Kramer is class and handle its own corner


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> To be honest Mojak, overwhelmed is where I am right now. Both are some of the most amazing things I've seen, let aloe owned
> 
> Two so different knives, both so beautifully done
> 
> ...


Well enjoy my friend, they are beauties to behold and tools made to last a lifetime.
Mike


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> Konosuke hd. looks like a good holiday!


Thanks for the kindest of words Mike

I'm going to post up my impressions after some time

Looking forward to your new delivered


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> Thanks for the kindest of words Mike
> 
> I'm going to post up my impressions after some time
> 
> Looking forward to your new delivered


Can't wait to see your review. I hope my wait isn't too long! I'm chomping at the bit!
Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Im like a kid in a candy store! I found and ordered a 135 mm Tanaka R2 Petty today. Always intended to get a long pairing knife. Had a 6 inch Shun all-purpose knife that was one of my go to knives. Thought it was just a tad to long. At 135mm or around 5.3 inches I'm Hoping this Petty will be perfect....

Mike


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You'll like it.  I bought a 135 Geshin Kagero as a dedicated steak knife, but now I use it for slicing all they small stuff.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> You'll like it. I bought a 135 Geshin Kagero as a dedicated steak knife, but now I use it for slicing all they small stuff.
> 
> Rick


I think the 135mm will be perfect...as far as Steak knives go and I know you aren't a Shun fan, but they make a folding steak knife patterned after the first Japanese pocket knife I own 4 of the smaller versions and use them for camping. They are really nice, razor sharp and works of art in their own right. You can travel with it or take it to a steakhouse and have a great knife to use when you eat out. It comes with a leather scabbard. About a hundred bucks....

Pics of it:





  








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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting.  Googling I found two apparent variaions showing slight differences in blade shaping and hardware.  

The one you show is actually closer to my preferred profile for a steak knife - an edge that drops downwards to a widened radius near the tip.  My accumulation of small knives is starting to get bloated but I'll have to consider it.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> Interesting. Googling I found two apparent variaions showing slight differences in blade shaping and hardware.
> 
> The one you show is actually closer to my preferred profile for a steak knife - an edge that drops downwards to a widened radius near the tip. My accumulation of small knives is starting to get bloated but I'll have to consider it.
> 
> Rick


Rick,

I think the variations you ran into might be due to the manufacturing location. I read about several people buying these and they weren't made in Japan! Go to William Sonoma they have the bigger version which I think you would like better, believe it or not big and little are the same price I think. WS only has the large version and I kind of wish I had purchased those instead. You can personally in spect them and see if it has the blade features you desire.

There maybe counterfeits out there so beware my friend.

Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

The Tanaka Kinves have arrived. Here's the unveiling. They are incredible pieces! Great feel and balance in the hand....





  








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Knives and Stones treated me very well! James was very communicative and provided me with incredible customer service. Very fast shipping through DHL. The package arrived a day early from Austrailia.

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Very pretty. I hope you enjoy them.


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

BrianShaw said:


> Very pretty. I hope you enjoy them.


I will Brian! Next is a 270mm slicer this is what I have in mind.





  








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Tell me about ZDP 189 steel.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Great! If you don't feel their sharp enough otb then just a few stropping strokes on your 6K or 10K should take care of that.

The reviews on ZDP-189 are mixed. The knowledgeable folks I have heard talk of it say it is very hard to sharpen, and rather prone to chipping. Given that as the predominant talk, at least as far as what I've heard, I shy away from it. Funny that I haven't heard any mention of what kind of edge it takes.

I was going to buy a Tanaka suji, but I discovered it's not a laser and a laser is what would suite my purposes here. Seems no one at this time is making that kind of suji (240 laser) in R2. 240 is also as big as I want for the kind of use I'll be putting it to.

What is going to be the primary use for your suji? If it will be proteins maybe you should consider carbon. I'm considering carbon here even though I would be doing a lot of acid foods with it, just because I want the initial sharpness.



Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> Great! If you don't feel their sharp enough otb then just a few stropping strokes on your 6K or 10K should take care of that.
> 
> The reviews on ZDP-189 are mixed. The knowledgeable folks I have heard talk of it say it is very hard to sharpen, and rather prone to chipping. Given that as the predominant talk, at least as far as what I've heard, I shy away from it. Funny that I haven't heard any mention of what kind of edge it takes.
> 
> ...


K... Like you said my sharpening setup ain't fancy but I have the right stuff to get the job done....articles I've read say the ZDP-189 is more chip resistant tougher and holds an edge better. Not all that hard to sharpen....I will differ to more knowelegable heads than my own. I will use the Suji as a pure slicer....just wanted a steel that would be tougher for potential bone hits....want a Honyaki as well and a cleaver, perhaps...
mike


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

Can't beat a good unveiling 

Look great, do keep us updated to how you're getting on with them


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

The slicer will be used on proteins exclusively. Carbon may be a better choice than one of the new super steels. I'll have a look at some of the carbon blades and go from there.

I do have a question about water stones. I read somewhere that you should apply mineral oil to the stones before the first use, then soak in water before you use them, is this true. 

Mike


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

NO


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> NO


Thanks,
That was quick I was going to edit it out...I mis-read a previous threads info.

Cutting boards yes stones no....


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

I remember why I shyed away from the Tanaka now. It was reports of the handle being too small. Whether it was the diameter, or the length I'm not sure

Could you say a little on how it feels for you, the grip you use, and your hand size 

Thanks


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> I remember why I shyed away from the Tanaka now. It was reports of the handle being too small. Whether it was the diameter, or the length I'm not sure
> 
> Could you say a little on how it feels for you, the grip you use, and your hand size
> 
> Thanks


I have very large hands (XXL GLOVES) and do not find the handle to small by any means. Whether you're using the pinch or holding only the handle it feels quite good. The contours of the knife handle fit nicely in the hand. The circumference is perfect and the length is also very good for me providing excellent purchase. I normally use the pinch grip. Here photos of both grips:




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Shun Kaji 8":





  








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Hand size picture::





  








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My hand fits nicely within the confines of the handle heal flip and I always have my thumb on the bolster in one position or another for control. The pinch, which is what I use is perfect for me using this knife. I'm very pleased.

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Wow, those ARE big hands!!

But the knife appears to fit quite good!!


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

BrianShaw said:


> Wow, those ARE big hands!!
> 
> But the knife appears to fit quite good!!


Ya, I shoulda been a construction worker!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Big hands yes.  Mine might be slightly larger, but certainly my wrists are no more massive, actually I believe I give up some to Mojak there.

Construction worker, heck super heavyweight lifter looks like a fit.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> Big hands yes. Mine might be slightly larger, but certainly my wrists are no more massive, actually I believe I give up some to Mojak there.
> 
> Construction worker, heck super heavyweight lifter looks like a fit.
> 
> Rick


LOL! I do run a bit on the large side @ 6'0 and 265lbs.

The Tanaka I think works well for me.

Chopped up an onion trying to emulate the video above. I was fine till I hit the nub of the onion. My technique needs a little work I think.

Overall, no complaints, very nice tool.

Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

I think people are of the opinion that cooking knives have to have large handles like these do.

These are around a 100years old.

Top to bottom:

FRIEDR.HERDER ABR.SOHN

WESTER BROS NO. 30. 12"

E.D. WUSTOF NO. 147 12"





  








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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Benuser said:


> First thing to do is verifying the profile. The Wester has a bit of reverse belly in the middle -- due to steeling abuse, as is so common. Not sure about the Wüsthof, but I suspect some protruding fingerguard.
> Both need a reconstruction of the tip. Work from the spine.
> After correcting profile some serious thinning will be needed.
> Both can be performed with very simple means, like sandpaper and a cheap silicium carbide stone.


Ya, they all have problems. With the knife at the top being the worst. The blade edge is bent. A friend of mine started cutting big King crab nuckles with it. The blade needs to be hammered out.

Mike


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

Looks positively small next to your hand 

But, yes thanks for putting that rumour to bed





  








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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Hey is this a Tanaka thread?! I just got a 165mm blue steel deba. Joined a fish share. Every week I pick up the freshest local whole fish 4-6 lbs.





  








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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> Hey is this a Tanaka thread?! I just got a 165mm blue steel deba. Joined a fish share. Every week I pick up the freshest local whole fish 4-6 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's spectacular looking!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Mojak said:


> LOL! I do run a bit on the large side @ 6'0 and 265lbs.
> 
> The Tanaka I think works well for me.
> 
> ...





MillionsKnives said:


> Hey is this a Tanaka thread?! I just got a 165mm blue steel deba. Joined a fish share. Every week I pick up the freshest local whole fish 4-6 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, why not make it a post on the Holiday acquisitions in general?

Ahaha, but Mojak, do you really need to be this understated about your new Ironwood(s)?

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

I showed them off a bit. They are bad ass knives! Beautifully made, sharp as hell and I'll probably never need to purchase another Chef's or Pairing knife again. Although want and need are two different things. [emoji]128513[/emoji]


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Hammering out as you put it isn't probably the only option. When carbon steel got severely out of true you better abrade it while thinning. Eventually you put a more conservative edge on it.
> The Wüsthof is the most interesting here. Handle seems intact, and with a bit of love you get a great performer. I had the privilege to do so with a few vintage carbons and never regret the time it took. And this one seems to be in quite a good condition.


I just need to find the time to do it and ask ask a lot of questions before I start that process. 
Mike


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

And here is what just came in the mail today for me, a 210 Takamura Migake R2 gyuto, one of the "next best" knives performance wise to an Ironwood. OTB it has an edge better than I can put on any knife I own, and visually examining the edge I can see it can be improve on. This is actually an interim knife to keep me happy until I can find/decide o the perfect [for me] 240 suji, and I just wanted to have a knife in R2 anyways.

My only complaint, it is not as thin at the tip as knives I have reworked, but I'll try it as-is before a decide about changing that as I have no complaints about the rest of the edge.





  








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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Rick,
Dang that's Purdy! Rosewood?

Do you feel it will have more resistance or wedge with the slightly thicker tip when using it in that capacity or is it a blade balance thing.
Mike...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not 100% sure but I think the scales are actually synthetic laminate, which can be made to look a lot like real wood.  There is something about the color, grain size and sheen that does not seem completely natural, but it is attractive never the less.   It's definitely not in the same class as an Ironwwod though.

As for the tip, it's probably in line with a lot of other lasers, and I've seen these doing horizontal cuts thru onions like they weren't even there.  Just noting that I have modified knives to even finer distal taper up front and that certainly doesn't hurt them.  The very tip itself is as thin as you'd want it, I would just have had the taper continue further back than it does.

And despite the fact the blade is very light I actually would enjoy even more weight off the tip.  You know, it's similar to the feel you go for when you put a 700C sew-up on the front of your bicycle, or add a touch more toe-out to the front end of a sports car.  Ahahah!, then you really feel like you've got the light response of a race machine there.

Rick


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Well it sure is nice Rick! Enjoy! And Merry Christmas.


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

Common Mike  we (I) need some feedback on those Takaka's


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> Common Mike  we (I) need some feedback on those Takaka's


They are sharp as hell..a slight mishap between my brain and hand resulted in a gushing wound....LOL! Honestly, the onion test....effortless.....the Tanaka's are great tools....oh and yes while my Shun's came extremely sharp the Tanaka's are heads and tails above. Myth, handles are to small....uh no! I have giant hands and the Tanaka Handle gives me a confident grip. Myth Busted!.Would I buy, again, you bet I would....

Mike


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

Wow, that sounds sharp 

Another question for you - does the profile favour any particular action/technique? So (keep in mind I am very much a novice here but wanting to learn) to my eyes profile is not too flat, to encourage chopping but has a some curve to enable rocking?

Is this fair to say?

Thanks Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> Wow, that sounds sharp
> 
> Another question for you - does the profile favour any particular action/technique? So (keep in mind I am very much a novice here but wanting to learn) to my eyes profile is not too flat, to encourage chopping but has a some curve to enable rocking?
> 
> ...


I have always thought the German profile encouraged an exaggerated rocking height and I feel this is an uncomfortable movement for me. When rocking using a pinch grip you just need to go high enough to clear whatever your chopping or mincing. The French profile seems to provide me a bit of a guide on how high I need to go. I think it much faster as well not being an expert at cooking knife skills. A true professional probably has the muscle memory to use either profile efficiently. Hope this helps....

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I always found that the thickness of the item being cut or chopped to be the guide for how high the knife must be lifted or rocked, not the shape of the knife itself. One doesn't have to always rock a German profile knife to the tip if the food doesn't require that motion. For me, the French and Japanese profiles limit chopping comfort sometimes because it takes more exertion to lift and chop than rock and chop. I choose which knife to use largely based on the task, but find German profile most versatile simply because I ca chop at either a shallow angle or a high angle. Personal preference, and training to some extent, is the most important deciding factor!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

That is also a function of your counter height and cutting board thickness.  I have a 3"x20"x20" block that is too high on the counter, but perfect height on my dining table.

Also consider how you are standing in relation to your product.  You have two options for a more "natural" cutting experience

1) Stand both feet square to your board cut across the board diagonally

2) The better option -  Stand with your right foot back and you can place the food you're cutting parallel with the cutting board.  It's better because of board management reasons.  Obviously if you are left handed you stand with your left food back instead


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

BrianShaw said:


> I always found that the thickness of the item being cut or chopped to be the guide for how high the knife must be lifted or rocked, not the shape of the knife itself. One doesn't have to always rock a German profile knife to the tip if the food doesn't require that motion. For me, the French and Japanese profiles limit chopping comfort sometimes because it takes more exertion to lift and chop than rock and chop. I choose which knife to use largely based on the task, but find German profile most versatile simply because I ca chop at either a shallow angle or a high angle. Personal preference, and training to some extent, is the most important deciding factor!


Yes, you are correct Brian. I guess for for a non professional like myself, I feel that the French knife profile helps me be more efficient while rocking because I don't have the training you do. That little bit of higher resistance I feel at the top of the rocking motion lets me know when I've gone as high as I should go. Of course yes food thickness is a major factor, I almost always have pre-broken down what I am rocking to alt least a course chop giving me some uniformity of food thickness. Using the right tool for the he job absolutely a must and I probably abuse that rule a fair bit. I've noticed though with my ham fisted technique that I am a bit slower with the German profile.

Mike


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Benuser said:


> Modern French have the tip a bit higher than the old ones. Old Germans have the tip lower than today's Wüsthof. In general, Japanese tips are the same as old French or lower. Has all to do with users' size! I'm a short guy and a modern German tip is perfectly unusable to me. I should add that rock-choppers prefer higher tips and that a high tip is more critical with a relatively short blade.


I can relate! User size, counter height, and cutting board thickness all contribute to the ergonomics of using a knife. I'd add "ham-fistedness" too but some I have no personal experience I'll refrain.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Hey Mike... There are only 10 rules that weren't intended to be abused or broken! Even the laws of physics are potentially abusable


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> That is also a function of your counter height and cutting board thickness. I have a 3"x20"x20" block that is too high on the counter, but perfect height on my dining table.
> 
> Also consider how you are standing in relation to your product. You have two options for a more "natural" cutting experience
> 1) Stand both feet square to your board cut across the board diagonally
> 2) The better option - Stand with your right foot back and you can place the food you're cutting parallel with the cutting board. It's better because of board management reasons. Obviously if you are left handed you stand with your left food back instead


Need to get a better cutting board, I've been looking and found something I liked but the company just sold to a fella in Texas that had lots of complaints so I'm unsure of where or whom to buy from. Not sure how I will change counter height on a leased home. Not at all comfortable prepping on a 125 year old antique dinning table which is my only other option.....

Mike


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

BrianShaw said:


> Hey Mike... There are only 10 rules that weren't intended to be abused or broken! Even the laws of physics are potentially abusable


LOL!


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

Since owning decent sharp J-knives, my technique has evolved to include more chopping.

The Geramn profile I think favours a duller edge as it's easy to use more heft

If I'm prepping stir fry which I do often, I'll reach for the kono laser HD and fly through stuff chopping away, which to me is the fastest (and more fun) option


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The end grain "butcher block" types are always real thick like 2-3" on top of your counter height. If you like your current counter height, then get a shorter board. I only use my block for vegetables. I'm a fan of synthetics for clean up on meats and anything wet. I have this one from Korin http://korin.com/HiSoft-Cutting-Board?sc=26&category=17860376

Sani tuff is thinner, harder, and denser. Either one is good on knife edges.

As far as techniques, ergonomics, etc. You need to figure out what works for you. Since you're cooking at home you have all the time in the world. You'll find naturally that your grip is not as tight on nice sharp knives, so you'll need to adjust to that. Your priorities in learning should be 1) Safety 2) consistent cut product sizes 3) speed . Speed is last and it only comes with practice


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

Cutting Board Companies I should be considering?

Thanks,

Mike


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

See the synthetics I mentioned

If you want wood, this is good price/performance 
Denser maple grown up north has a tighter grain structure, bigger pieces, less glue

Boardsmith is the best even though the company was sold to another wood worker. Just way too much $ for me


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> See the synthetics I mentioned
> 
> If you want wood, this is good price/performance http://www.amazon.com/Maple-End-Grain-Chopping-Block/dp/B00O4CQIL0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451585586&sr=8-1&keywords=michigan+maple
> 
> ...


Yes, Boardsmith was what I was looking at. I think I'll pickup the Korin you linked as well.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Also look into JK Adams boards.


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