# Would you rather hire a cook with experience or a certificate?



## sgmchef (Sep 30, 2006)

Hi Cheftalk,

I ask this question to perhaps assist aspiring Chefs to hear from Chefs and owners about their views on young cooks beginning their culinary journey. Just like the kitchen, there are tons of variables and no right or wrong answers. The obvious answer is both, of course, but for the young cooks out there trying to make decisions about the costs and time of certification your answers might help their process.

This does apply primarily to the USA, since many nations require certification. If you wanted to open a restaurant in, say Germany, you must have certification, regardless of experience.

So, what do you think?


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## planethoff (Apr 25, 2011)

It depends on the position I was looking to hire for and what my long term goals were for that person. 

If I had a well established, busy place, I would take experience over credentials any day. 

If I were starting a new concept and looking to groom a potential exec chef, I would take degreed with proper attitude.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I just want willingness to learn, follow directions, have common sense and never say no.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Experience all day, every day. Hands down.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I like Chefbillyb's answer. A degree would be alright but not without the rest. I went to school with people I would never hire and worked with experienced people who didn't have a clue. Depends more on the individual than anything else.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

To be honest, I am not swayed by either one as much as I am by attitude. Skills can be taught, experience can be gained, and knowledge passed on; if the mindset is right. I have seen candidates where their perception of their knowledge and skill level were a detriment. They already knew everything. I have also seen candidates where their perception of their experience and skill level were a detriment. They already knew everything.

Having to _unteach_ people, can be a real pain!


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

experience OR education are NOT mutually exclusive


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## sgmchef (Sep 30, 2006)

harrisonh said:


> experience OR education are NOT mutually exclusive


Hi harrisonh,

I can only guess you missed "The obvious answer is both, of course,".

I only posted this question for the possible benefit of young cooks starting out and trying to choose between attending an expensive school or just start working in a kitchen and learn while getting paid. I just wanted the point of view of the many professional chefs out there that actually have to sort out the pros and cons between applicants and make the decision which gets hired.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

We all know how far a good attitude goes in the kitchen. I sent my Son to Culinary school so I wouldn't kill while training him. In many ways I don't want to much knowledge coming into my operation. I want basic skill and knowledge of Other sauces, Stocks, sauces and gravies. If they bring to much baggage I have to hear that song we all know so well. The song is " We did it this way in the last place I worked" I never want to hear that song again.


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

For the benefit of any new cooks in school looking to get into the kitchen life: it is EXTREMELY important to be aware that knowing how to prep, cook, present, and maintain safety and sanitation is merely a skill set. What they don't teach in culinary school-at least, none that I've experienced or heard of-they don't teach you line work. Working the line is its own separate beast. It would be a shame for one to graduate from a culinary academy with a certificate, or even from a college with a degree, with dreams of their whites remaining as such, their polished shoes remaining as such, and their expectations remaining as such.

Having attended college to study culinary, I saw many people crack. Yes, the pressure is tough and the good schools can be demanding, time being the largest factor. But NOTHING comes close to working the line during the standard breakfast/lunch/dinner rush. Mother's Day, Valentines, Thanksgiving, Xmas? Fuhgeddaboutit!

If one can, get yourself a job in a kitchen while you attend school. This way, when you graduate and show up to your first interview with your shiny, new certificate/diploma in tow, you can ask the Chef, "It's Friday...how many covers we lookin' at?"

Peace


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

When, oh when will the culinary schools take the hint from Europe, heck even take the hint from other trades in the U.S. and make exoerience PART of the education?


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

The culinary program I attended required an internship. I spent three months working the line 50-60 hours a week.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

My school didn't require/offer enough real experience at the time. My third job after graduation I told the chef in the interview that the last two jobs hadn't taught me much about working a line. I didn't feel I had enough experience and wanted to work in someplace I would get experience and learn. After hiring me, he was a bit irritated to find out I hadn't been lying. 
Now I find that quite funny.


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## cheflew (May 23, 2016)

I would much rather go with experience.

Why? That degree does not mean that person has any idea how to apply the knowledge they learned in the kitchen. Sure they can conduct math, and they can be a money person but if I'm hiring them, more than likely I'm already doing that or as is my accountant. 

Personally I got my degree from Le Cordon Bleu (I'm not bragging just stating facts), and as such I learned all of the ways to prepare a classic Bechamel (using veal), demi glace (most people don't understand there is a demi-glace sauce, and a demi-glace that is made from reducing a traditional stock or estouffade until it is itself a sauce), heck I even had a short stint at Alinea while Curtis Duffy was there as the Head Chef (they were two Michelin star but were awarded their third that following year when the new guide was published which technically makes them a 3 at the time?) lol. Molecular Gastronomy and de-constructive cooking types just aren't my cup of tea, although they are really cool. 

At this point I already had YEARS of experience in the industry including being a head chef but it was at that weird time in the early 2000s where everyone wanted you to have a degree no matter how much experience you had (if anyone remembers that). MAYBE that was just in Illinois.

Anyway, I even attended an apprenticeship after that for CEC (experience with ongoing education etc) with the ACF. I eventually finished and certain things happened, so I never took the exam, (I destroyed my shoulder) blah blah blah. Long story short comparing Le Cordon Bleu vs Apprenticeship (hands on full time work 4,000+ on the job education) the apprenticeship is waaaaaaaaaay above and beyond. You just cannot compare experience vs education. 

In my experience as chefbillyB stated, most new comers from culinary school and a degree without experience "GASP That's NOT HOW WE DID IT......IN CULINARY SCHOOL!!!!!". 

Le Cordon Bleu, 4 hours to make 3-4 different dishes that you get graded on. My last stint on the line? Almost every day we would be slammed with 70 covers in 30 minutes.....constantly. (Del Frisco's) A person fresh out of school wouldn't even know where to start. But that adrenaline rush, oh man, that adrenaline rush! Plus the accomplishment of "WHOA, I just served xxxx amount of people in xxxx amount of time", there isn't much of a psychological boost like it anywhere, not to mention there can also be a psychological beat down too lol. I've had my butt handed to me more than once on the line because we are slammed and understaffed etc.

Then again, just as Chef Layne and Chefwriter said, there are some people with experience that just don't have a clue. I also agree with Redbeerd Cantu, there are soooo many young chefs out there that become disillusioned after culinary school because they see people on T.V. cooking and having a nice chat, and they get hired for a line cook position; BOOM even just 5 tickets at a time is enough to get them flustered and they FREEZE. 

But it's okay, I'm there to swoop in and save the day.


Sorry about the long post but all in all it's about whether someone is willing to learn and follow directions. Even if it's hard for culinary students to get hired, "in my area at the time, yea....finding a job was tough" so just run around and stagiere at a bunch of different places, you'll learn fast.

90% up to us as chefs whether the person fails or not. We are there to teach and show them what to do, after all we are the BOSS, and if there's a problem in my kitchen because my guys aren't getting it done, it's MY responsibility to find out WHY! Even if I have to sit there and tell the person "take out the sea bass, season it, give it some color, throw it in the oven. Heat the clarified butter, throw in the Brussels sprouts, toss, etc. etc." eventually that repetition will catch on. It's just generally harder with someone from culinary school because culinary school in America does not mirror the professional setting in America.


Again TL;DR I know. Just my two cents.

Cheers!


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## zeph zpiteri (Apr 13, 2015)

redbeerd cantu said:


> For the benefit of any new cooks in school looking to get into the kitchen life: it is EXTREMELY important to be aware that knowing how to prep, cook, present, and maintain safety and sanitation is merely a skill set. What they don't teach in culinary school-at least, none that I've experienced or heard of-they don't teach you line work. Working the line is its own separate beast. It would be a shame for one to graduate from a culinary academy with a certificate, or even from a college with a degree, with dreams of their whites remaining as such, their polished shoes remaining as such, and their expectations remaining as such.
> 
> Having attended college to study culinary, I saw many people crack. Yes, the pressure is tough and the good schools can be demanding, time being the largest factor. But NOTHING comes close to working the line during the standard breakfast/lunch/dinner rush. Mother's Day, Valentines, Thanksgiving, Xmas? Fuhgeddaboutit!
> 
> ...


nice read chef


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## zeph zpiteri (Apr 13, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> To be honest, I am not swayed by either one as much as I am by attitude. Skills can be taught, experience can be gained, and knowledge passed on; if the mindset is right. I have seen candidates where their perception of their knowledge and skill level were a detriment. They already knew everything. I have also seen candidates where their perception of their experience and skill level were a detriment. They already knew everything.
> 
> Having to _unteach_ people, can be a real pain!


you have something wrong in your post as I've read it multiple times and even tho I'm into my second bottle of Foxey's Hangout's shiraz I'm sure it doesn't make sense when I read it.

However I agree with you on the two points I think you're trying to convey ... Attitude .. which is a key factor when I'm recruiting staff and the having to unteach people bit.

cheers!
zeph


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

zeph zpiteri said:


> you have something wrong in your post as I've read it multiple times and even tho I'm into my second bottle of Foxey's Hangout's shiraz I'm sure it doesn't make sense when I read it.
> 
> However I agree with you on the two points I think you're trying to convey ... Attitude .. which is a key factor when I'm recruiting staff and the having to unteach people bit.
> 
> ...


I didn't read what you read into it. Indeed attitude is very important. A person's perception of both their experience, knowledge, as well as skill level can be a detriment. They make you believe they can do something. You take the time to show them how you want it and walk away. Half hour later you came back and see that they took it upon themselves to change the parameters because they thought it was better.
Sorry....I understood cheflayne quite well......perhaps it was the Syrah.....?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If they bring to much baggage I have to hear that song we all know so well. The song is " We did it this way in the last place I worked" I never want to hear that song again.[/QUOTE]

Ah, that song.
My response to that song is:
"That's nice. You're in ( name of establishment) "x" now. You do it the "X" way because that's what "X" customer expect and pay for. Now, are you going to show me you're competent enough to follow orders, or are you stupid enough to get fired on your first week?"


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

Where you got your education isn't as important as knowing what you know and what to do with it. Work is about the here and now and where you are going, not so much how you got here.
My opinion.
Peachcreek


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

It sounds like most are referring to the hot side of the kitchen. Now in the bakery, you know, the skilled culinary art, it's a bit different.
Instead of pulling a steak out of the box and cooking it, those of us on the skilled culinary pastry side, well we have to make our steaks and then cook them.
Jesting. Personally, if I had my choice to hire someone with vast experience, or a newbie culinary grad or even a career changer with home baking experience (more to risk to them), I would chose the latter.
As some have mentioned, the song! The song doesn't bother me but I get infuriated when a new hire is shown something, does it that way while you're there. Then go back to their way after you've gone.
Did I tell you I've switched out my cameras in the kitchen, to cameras with audio. Better than TV when you work out of the house. Just kidding.
Actually, just signed for another 15 yrs. If one of the professionals here knows of someone looking for a change, we are moving forward. Grooming my niece to step up. I'm backed out already. We're looking for the right person to join the family. After some probationary time and better than average compensation I'm willing to hand over a risk free, no buy-in, no business debt since 2001, equal % ownership. I'm posting something on the other board, interns or something.
We were named in one of the small business rags as "a hospitality industry anomaly". 22 yrs. same location, showing an increase in revenue every year since inception. Even through the 2008+ period. Very nice interview. At the airport exec. lounge. She ordered in fast food.
Finished my coffee, looked around. She bolted and left me with the tab. Nice!


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## ktanasy (May 6, 2010)

sgmchef said:


> Hi Cheftalk,
> 
> I ask this question to perhaps assist aspiring Chefs to hear from Chefs and owners about their views on young cooks beginning their culinary journey. Just like the kitchen, there are tons of variables and no right or wrong answers. The obvious answer is both, of course, but for the young cooks out there trying to make decisions about the costs and time of certification your answers might help their process.
> 
> ...


I would hire someone with experience.
In the US your required to be certified in health laws and procedures.


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## linecookliz (Jun 8, 2017)

Depends on how much labor cost I have to play with. Experience is preferred though.


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## NnamAries (Apr 26, 2019)

sgmchef said:


> Hi Cheftalk,
> 
> I ask this question to perhaps assist aspiring Chefs to hear from Chefs and owners about their views on young cooks beginning their culinary journey. Just like the kitchen, there are tons of variables and no right or wrong answers. The obvious answer is both, of course, but for the young cooks out there trying to make decisions about the costs and time of certification your answers might help their process.
> 
> ...


I am very big on experiences, but above all, I'd like to work with someone who doesn't work too much by the book.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

> I am very big on experiences, but above all, I'd like to work with someone who doesn't work too much by the book.


 but did they read the book? Do they understand the book? Or are they flying blind?


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

no sgmchef, I did not miss the point. YOU posted a false dichotomy


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## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

Hire for attitude and work ethic first, then skill.. Don't need any prima donnas with attitude..


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I never get enough applicants with either of these things to make it a hard choice.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

My employee base was so bad at one time the only requirement was being able to walk. It got worse and that requirement became negotiable. If I were to open any business I would design it to make sure I didn't need employees. I could write a book on how many excuses I got for not being able to work. I have had so many employees begging for more hours only to call in sick the next day. I would have employees leave to make .25cents more someplace else. I could go on forever.....


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

I take regular drives to far away places to chill and check out the food scenes.
I have been doing this for more than two decades.
Why am I still seeing these young inexperienced *Chefs *creating dishes, that while they look pretty, are lacking basic cooking technique as well as seasoning?

Ask the wait person if the kitchen can do a Filet Mignon "Bleu"....they say yes. It comes to the table and is in no way, shape, or form, charred on the outside while raw/rare inside.
Go out to breakfast and order an omelette that comes to the table brown and cold. Ask for well done English Muffin and get an anemic flimsy something that can bend in half without breaking.

My point? The restaurants are not interviewing, and testing their potential hires.
Someone made the point that even with experience, and education, a person can still fail miserably.
I am continuously bummed at out food service industry for not petitioning the government for more recognition as an actual profession. 
The NRA does little to that end. 
If it were mandatory for cooks to have to go through apprenticeships, and continued learning to get a license in order to cook, it would change the face of the restaurant industry. 
But, as most things in life go, just because one has a license, doesn't make them good.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, no, of course just because you have a license it doesn’t guarantee that you will do things the right way. My drivers license does not guarantee that I won’t blow through a 4-way stop.

What the license DOES guarantee is that I have no excuse to plead ignorance.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

foodpump said:


> Well, no, of course just because you have a license it doesn't guarantee that you will do things the right way. My drivers license does not guarantee that I won't blow through a 4-way stop.
> 
> What the license DOES guarantee is that I have no excuse to plead ignorance.


Love it!!! Great analogy.

I currently have a coworker that has culinary school training, ACF certifications, and is working towards her 4 year degree in hospitality management. Neither of us is Chef of the workplace. If I were Chef, she would probably wind up employed elsewhere.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

chefross said:


> I take regular drives to far away places to chill and check out the food scenes.
> I have been doing this for more than two decades.
> Why am I still seeing these young inexperienced *Chefs *creating dishes, that while they look pretty, are lacking basic cooking technique as well as seasoning?
> 
> ...


A big problem here is the mandatory increases in minimum wages. Any line cook worth their salt will try to go on to a higher paying position if they can if they see that your business has to hire school kids at a few bucks cheaper than them. The problem with certifications being mandatory is you would basically invalidate a huge market of the food service industry that is all experience based training. And cooks that are already in the workforce may not have the time to go back and retrain under some program to get a degree of some sort. I'm talking basically about positions lower than middle management, as I'm assuming we are referring to chefs hiring cooks and kitchen staff. Where I am inflation is making it so wages for skilled work cannot keep up with non skilled and the bottom line of the businesses cannot handle increasing skilled labor costs so they end up going with less experienced, less skilled employees.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, yeah, that’s a good argument against certification. 

But I’m curious about what the situation will be in 10 years from now... 

When the cooks with no certification but lots of work experience age out, who will replace them? 
Five years ago most kids figured out that a culinarily school diploma could not get them a wage that would pay their school fees AND their rent, so that crowd has dried up.

So in 10 years from now who’s left, who wants to work for sh*tty wages?

In 1984 I entered the culinary scene in Switzerland. Two years prior a huge change took place in the hospitality industry— the hotels and 5 stars realized that they couldnt attract new apprentices, and experienced cooks were leaving in droves. What could it be? The unanimous answer was, those slackers wanted a 5 day work week. The hospitality industry was the last—the only, industry in Switzerland that had a 6 day work week. A lot of table banging and screaming from the hoteliers, but in the end a 5 day week for the hospitality industry was introduced. The workforce never got back up to to pre 1980 levels, but at least it could attract and retain cooks and apprentices.

I’m a cook for life and have been in this industry since I was 15. If the N. American hospitality industry wants to attract and retain cooks, it better come to some table banging and screaming conclusions on how to survive the 2000’s......


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

foodpump said:


> Well, yeah, that's a good argument against certification.
> 
> But I'm curious about what the situation will be in 10 years from now...
> 
> ...


Perfect.

And Seoul Food.
My point was exactly that. Mandatory licensing WOULD invalidate those places that can't meet even basic standards.
To that end, cooks WITH experience would easily pass any licensing right? HA-HA!

Again, my issue here would be WHO makes the testing program to create the licensing?
Foodpump is right....Something has to change.
I too have been a cook since 15 years old and I have seen a lot of change and not all of it was good.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, who creates testing programs for electricians, plumbers auto mechanics? Are all of these trades recognized in each State?

In Europe apprenticeships are part of schooling each student gets, so the teaching, testing, and certification fall under the dept. of education.

In Canada the ITA (industry training authority) a gov’t body is responsible for the testing and certification for all recognized trades.

Is it true that the C.I.A. ( not the spies...) doesn’t even recognize J.W. credentials or A.C.F. Credentials?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

foodpump said:


> In Europe apprenticeships are part of schooling each student gets, so the teaching, testing, and certification fall under the dept. of education.


There is also unionization and some advocacy for labor in Europe. In the US things are run completely by the Capital side with little to no regard for labor rights or wages. Union busting and pro-Capital government has created a race to the bottom for wages and working conditions. More regulation leading to [what is now considered] low skill jobs being converted to skilled/white collar is the opposite of what the owners of the country desire. The ruling class has no interest in shorter work weeks for the plebes. In their minds we have too much time for mischief already.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

> The ruling class has no interest in shorter work weeks for the plebes. In their minds we have too much time for mischief already.


And because I make low wages, mischief is what I go for because it is cheap. _It is is free_!!!. Not only that but I am creative which makes mischief easy to come up with. :~)


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Another point here is _supposedly_ when educated, skilled workers are in the workforce, they tend to save money for the company, as opposed to non-educated experienced employees, who make errors because of lack of education.
I go back and offer my same comment. 
When a worker gains experience, they are educated only in the places they worked. Take them from that place and put them in another and some of their experience will take them only so far and then they end up having to unlearn and relearn bad/good habits.
Now take an educated employee. They can go to any place with their knowledge and be productive and comfortable.
Education and experience while they may go hand in hand, can not be graded as one over the other.
While I would take an experienced applicant or an educated one with experience, the point is how they perform on the line or in production. That to me tells me more than the resume or a face to face interview.


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## Varun (Jul 1, 2019)

In my view gathering certification of a specific skill or knowledge might help to create an impact over others and a proof that one is eligible to work regarding that same.


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## Varun (Jul 1, 2019)

sgmchef said:


> Hi Cheftalk,
> 
> I ask this question to perhaps assist aspiring Chefs to hear from Chefs and owners about their views on young cooks beginning their culinary journey. Just like the kitchen, there are tons of variables and no right or wrong answers. The obvious answer is both, of course, but for the young cooks out there trying to make decisions about the costs and time of certification your answers might help their process.
> 
> ...


I think certificates are the one's proof that showcase his/her abilities and approve that the person is capable os a specific skill.


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## hustong (Jul 17, 2014)

Im sorry to say i would take experience over a piece of paper any day and I have my piece of paper, several in fact, both a culinary arts and restaurant management degree and nothing surpasses the on the job experience, i saw so many people in school that had no idea what they where in for but the ones with experience that where just there to get the paper where the ones i wanted behind and next to me when in the shit.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Varun said:


> I think certificates are the one's proof that showcase his/her abilities and approve that the person is capable os a specific skill.


Not necessarily. I've worked with and for many certified Chefs that are slobs, can't organize, or cook.


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