# need help with french bread



## ricwhiting (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm baking AT HOME. NO STEAM OVEN. That said, is it possible to get quality results. I use bread flour, dried yeast, table salt and water, nothing else. I just can not seem to get that thin brittle crust that I'm looking for. I've tried: cast iron pan on the floor of the oven with ice cubes thrown in as bread goes in, very long oven pre-heat, etc. but no real nice brittle crust. Please help.


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## blade55440 (Sep 9, 2005)

I honestly can't think of anything that could possibly help with this.

I know at school we didn't have steam injectors in our oven so we had to stand with the door cracked and a spray bottle going at it... Granted it was a rather large gas oven so it could afford to lose some heat.

Give that a try, but try not to blame me if it doesn't work....please?:blush: 

Good luck.


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

Remember they have different flour in France, plus you may do better 
using a sourdough starter...... qahtan


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

I use the squirt bottle method with the electric oven. Since a lot of heat is lost when the door is open, turn it up to 500 at the very beginning.

So, Preheat to 500, insert bread. Wait 30 seconds, open and squirt the walls of the oven about 7 or 8 times, close quickly, repeat this two or three more times then bake as normal.


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

I am married to an electrician, and there is no way that he would let me spray / squirt water onto the hot walls of my oven. 
:-( qahtan


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Kyle,
Has turned making atisan breads at home into a scientific process. He will pop on and guide. Probably a change in formula(flour) and proofing and steaming.


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## free rider (May 23, 2006)

What about little pans of water in with it to produce steam for the time needed?


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## nowiamone (Jan 23, 2005)

I ordered a pan from King Arthur Flour "The Baker's catalog" that does help produce a crusty bread at home. Haven't looked at the catalog for awhile but they seem to carry products along time.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Please please buy Mastering the Art of French Cooking volume two by julia child, she teaches everything in a way that you can't fail
her method is to heat the oven really hot, with a pan of water at the bottom and a brick in it on the shelf, or on teh base of the oven. 
when you put the bread in, you put the brick (which should be hot by that time) into the hot water and close the oven, and it steams all up. 
Another way that actually works but you can't get a baguette shape, is Laurel's kitchen method, where you bake the bread in a covered heavy casserole. Cornmeal the outside of the dough, or grease and cornmeal the casserole, and let it do the final rise in the casserole. With the oven very hot, before putting the bread in, when it's totally risen, throw three tablespoons of water over the top of the bread and close the cover. That will form steam inside the casserole and you will get that crispy crust, with large cornflake sized pieces of crust that curl up slightly. Amazing. 
Of course, the best is to use a wood-burning oven, because it produces steam naturally, but you'd have to build that in your garden, if you have one.


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

Well if it's the crust you want shape your dough into a boule and bake it under a cloche....qahtan

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58...l/000_0004.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58.../sourdough.jpg


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

Steaming serves two purposes:

One is to keep the crust from setting up too quickly which allows for "oven spring", that is, it lets the bread rise to it's full capacity.

The other purpose is to create that wonderfull crust.

Commercial deck ovens have three heat sources - top, bottom and back - and often times a steam injector as well. Manipulating all of these produces really good bread. Obviously residential ovens cannot get close to that.

Blueicus has the best suggestion - heat the oven really high to compensate for rapid heat loss when the door is opened and spritz it with a squirt bottle (but don't tell Gahtan's husband  ) two or three times at 30 second intervals. Then turn the heat down to the proper baking temperature and go from there. 

I don't think it is possible to produce a commercial quality crust at home but this will be close.

I've heard bakers say that throwing ice cubes in a hot pan in the oven lowers the temperature too much and they don't recommend it. But then, some others do so it comes down to what works for you as it so often does in the culinary world.

Jock


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

Well as long he doesn't have to buy me another oven he is OK,;-)))) my oven does have heat from bottom, top and back, but I don't have steam.
I still like the crust that the cloche does.))

qahtan


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

Really? I didn't know they made home ovens like that. What brand is it?

Jock


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

My KA wall ovens have them and they're hidden


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

My oven is also Kitchenaid, and the third element is hidden.

qahtan, Niagara Peninsula, Ontario.


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## ricwhiting (Jul 15, 2006)

Of the suggests given, the only one that I have not yet tried is the hot brick in the water trick. I can't wait to try it. I gather from all of the hints, that a brittle crust is strictly a function of: oven type, temp, humidity in oven. At least I don't have to worry about my dough, rising or benching method. Thanks all.


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

I was going to go into a lot of theory on this, but Jock covered it quite succinctly! (gelatinisation etc etc)
Regardless of the method you choose; steam, waterspray or brick in water etc etc, the basis is that you need to delay crust formation during baking to avoid a thick crust and get the end result of a loaf of increased volume with a thin crust. Towards the end of the bake you need to evacuate the steam from the oven to ensure browning (malliard reaction) and presto! There you have a crusty "french" loaf with a thin crust.
Also remember - no enriching ingredients.:lips:


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

Just another thought, this will help with the overall character of the bread. Start your fermentation process with a poulish starter, it will help to increase the qualities of your bread through increased hydration (moist crumb, longer shelf life, crisp crust), well developed flavours from the increased fermentation time and a shorter bulk fermentation time.
You should be able to read up on this in any decent bread book, hopefully Siduri can tell you if the books he has recommended have any information on this technique.
I hope this helps.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

hi Felixe the dog, Siduri is a she - just for the record. (Siduri was the babylonian mythological figure who was the tavernkeeper and beer maker - she's the one who tells gilgamesh to go enjoy life, and forget about trying to gain immortality. Unfortunately i don't know how to make beer, but would like to learn. 
Anyway, i'd like to help but i never heard of poulish starter.
Probably others could give more information on this.


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

Sorry Siduri just a (wrong) assumption.


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## marion (Aug 8, 2006)

siduri,

When you are ready to start beer making, I can be of some help.

Marion


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Poolish is a pre-ferment (like a pate fermentee or a biga or the other sorts of pre-ferments) that is roughly works at

100 Hard Flour
100 Water
1 Yeast

and is left in the fridge for 24+ hours to ferment. This is then used to make the final dough for the bread. The yeast action in this pre-ferment (due to the low temperature that causes the yeast cells to metabolize differently) gives the finished product a better crust colour, better flavour, among other things.

My recipe for rustic french bread using poolish is

100 Hard flour
55.6 Warm Water
66.6 Poolish
5.6 Salt
1.1 Yeast

Which gives a dough that isn't loose like ciabatta, but still tacky even when ready for the first rising.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Felixe the dog - no problem, of course.  

Marion - thanks! I would love to, but will probably have to wait till i retire, if that ever happens - not likely unless i run into a lot of cash - but it intrigues me to actually make beer the old fashioned way. All the recipes i've come across involve using some kind of mix. It would be interesting to pick the hops and sprout the barley or wheat to make the malt etc. 

Blueicus - thanks. I'll try that. It sounds good


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

The one thing that I am trying tomorrow is a trick I got from the Bread Baker's Apprentice. Last time I tried bread with poolish, I got a WONDEDRFUL flavor, but just did not get the air bubbles ( I was making chiabatta). I tried another loaf with a spray bottle and cast iron preheated pan for the steam. I was at least able to get a very thin layer of the air bubbles on the top of the loaves and a better crust. 

SO the trick I am trying tomorrow is instead of using a regular spray bottle, I am using one of those garden/pesticide canisters that you pump with air so that LOTSA misty water can get into the oven quickly for steam. I'll let you know how it goes. 

FYI: the sprayer was only $6 and is only 1.5 quarts so it is still small enough for easy storage and handling. Another tip the book mentioned was to be sure not to spray water onto the oven's glass or the oven's lightbulb or they can shatter.


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## marion (Aug 8, 2006)

http://www.franklinbrew.org/

Tradition brewing, using natural grains and hops is very popular here. Above is a link to my local club.

Marion


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Here are some snags I bumped into when attempting to get bread with good air pockets.

a) Hydration of dough: In general, the wetter the dough, the more potential for air bubble formation (I suggest around 65% or higher)... however, once you reach a certain level of hydration (70 percent for higher), you will run into the problem of being able to have the bread maintain stability and so you will be creating flatter breads.

b) Kneading: Did you knead enough? Did your dough pass the windowpane test? You want a good network of gluten so that the dough will stretch nicely when the yeast expels carbon dioxide.

c) Punching Down the Dough and Shaping: Even though most books will tell you to degas and punch down the dough after the initial bulk fermentation, do not literally punch down the dough or you'll simply be destroying what work the yeast has done so far to create the bubbles, press it lightly and do just enough so that you won't suffocate the yeast during the second rising. In addition, during shaping continue to be gentle with the dough, stretch, not press to get a larger area of dough to shape, do not roll out with a rolling pin, basically just treat it like your baby.

Oh, I noticed you are using The Bread Baker's Apprentice as a reference, may I suggest that you do not use the baguette forming technique that is written there, and instead simply use the batard technique, then stretch the batard into a baguette shape by gently pulling and rolling out the dough to the desired length... the double fold will destroy large air bubble formation and give you a bread with a tighter crumb.

If these tips still don't get you good results, please list your methodology and I'll see if I can recreate it and offer more helpful advice.


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

Thanks Blueicus! you know its funny...I too was concerned about the folding that the Apprentice mentions. But because this was one of the few books that seemed to know what they were talking about, I took it at face value. I will use your techniques and let you know how it goes.


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

OK, so I tried two different techniques with differing results.

First batch, I followed the ciabatta recipe as printed. the bread turned out dense and basically turned out like bread from a breadmaker.

Second batch, I reduced the flour from 3 cups to about 1 1/2 or 2 cups. I proceeded with the stretch and fold technique and was extra gentle with my handling with the dough. 

The results of this second batch was better. the crumb was much less dense, and despite my use of roughly half of the flour I was still able to get three ample loaves. 

I still cannot get those big airpockets that the bread should have, BUT at least on this second batch I was FINALLY able to see the beginnings of those pockets...they were small, but noticeable. In fact, in one of the loaves (the smaller and thinnest loaf of the bunch), the end slices of the loaves had even larger airpockets and not dense in the least! This smaller loaf also produced a pretty nice crust. In general, if the entire loaf would turn out like the ends did, I would have marked this a success. 

So on the third batch that I am trying tonight, I am doing the following...1) increasing the water; 2) stretch and fold in a way that makes the dough thinner in the middle; and 3) proof the bread a little longer but in a cooler place--based on a tip for getting even proofing. I live in Vegas, so #3 will be hard to execute. More results to come.


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

I have to ask, how long (how much time)are you allowing for Bulk fermentation?


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

Felix, 

I was actually letting the ciabatta dough bulk ferment for 2 hours--I may try longer next time, but this time I relied on the bubbliness of poolish.

My final batch today turned out the best yet and is likely the best I will be able to get out of a home oven with an upper limit of 460-500 degrees.

I made my poolish as set out in the Bread Baker's Apprentice--but I added a pinch more yeast and a bit more water. 

Now here is where I parted from the Apprentice's formula. Instead of 3c of flour, I only used 1c. And I added, again, just a pinch more yeast than the recipe called for. And, instead of using ONLY 6 tbls. of water, I used maybe just over half a cup. 

The dough was very sticky, but with a bed of flour on the counter, I managed just fine. The stretch and fold I did delicately, and made sure to stretch the dough out thoroughly--I mean the dough was literally stretched across my counter. 

From there I returned to the recipe for stretching and folding, proofing, etc. 

I cut the bulk into four small loaves. I preheated the oven, including a pizza stone and a cast iron pan on the lower shelf, to 500 degrees. I then placed 2loaves into the oven onto the stone then steamed the oven up by 1) misting lotsa lotsa water into the over via a garden mister (not a regular hand spraying bottle--see previous post); and 2) pouring hot water from a tea kettle into the cast iron pan (easy to get steam burns at any of these points so watch out). I then steamed the oven 2 or 3 more times at 30 second intervals from the sprayer only and then reduced the oven to 450--baked for 20 minutes and let them cool for roughly 45 mins (pretty much the recipe from the book). 

The results? The crust FINALLY turned out crusty and a nice brown color. And more importantly, the bread itself had PLENTY of those air pockets that I had been striving for. Now, granted, the pockets/holes were nowhere near as large as you would find in the pics of the Apprentice book, nor were they as numerous but there were plenty of them AND the bread was light, chewey, etc. like it should be. 

I don't think I will be trying other techniques anytime soon but at least, FINALLY, I would call this a success for a home oven. 

One last note: I do live in a VERY dry climate, so the large amounts of water and the minimal use of flour I used may not work in more moderate climates.


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

Stewey, 
Congratulations. Depending on the amount of yeast in your poolish, it should ferment for up to 16 hours (as an example of the time I give mine), 2 hours for bulk fermentation may or may not be long enough. It all depends on percentage of yeast, dough temp etc (stay out of this Siduri!!:lol: ). If you find you are looking to develop more "bubbles" you should try folding at least once during bulk fermentation and then letting it rise again until fully "prooved" this could take several hours. Generally mine take around 4 hours.
I won't go any further as you are already happy with your results.


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

You know...I think I will try that! I tried not to let it ferment for too long due to a tip (I don't remember if I read it or heard it). I had thought that you generally shouldn't ferment too long (unless you degas) because eventually the yeast will choke itself off. And because I was trying to retain as much gas as possible, I tried to not bulk ferment for more than a couple of hours. 

But if longer fermentation is beneficial, then I will definitely try it in my next batch. I messed with the poolish times and longer always seemed better. So next time I will just slow things down for both the poolish and the fermenting. 

Thanks for that tip!


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

uh oh, i got a bad reputation here. Ok, felixe, I admit complete ignorance as to poolish so i will stay out indeed. And i can't wait till i have a couple of days free so i can try it myself.


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## felixe the dog (Jul 16, 2006)

It takes a lot to cover but I wil try to give a few good points.
Your dough fermentation temp throughout should be around 27-28 degrees celcius ( I will let you convert).
When you bulk ferment the dough lots of things happen, yeast reproduces, gasses start, gluten gets stronger and more extensible, hydration increases etc. This is why it is called dough ripening.
If, during bulk fermentation you take the dough and fold (not to roughly) you help to develop the gluten, incorporate oxygen and even out the dough temperature.
From general observation, a dough that is "moving" along nicely will suffer no loss of fermentation time from "knocking back" by folding. It starts to rise quickly again and makes up for lost time.
If you want to do a basic test to see if the dough may be ready then take your hand and make a "karate chop pose but keep your thumb up. Plunge your karate hand into the dough up to the thumb and remove it. Look at the hole you left.
Does it start to slightly collapse around the hole? If it does then the dough is ripe.
If it does nothing or resists or just seems to close back up then the dough needs longer. There are many other points to discuss but I think this should help a bit.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

To Bluicus and Felixe the Dog
Thanks for the poulish/poolish/or most likely pouliche tip. I finally had a full day at home so i could try this. Made the poolish as bluicus suggested, assuming the quantities were proportions by weight and then just simply approximated. Stayed 24 hours in frige, and then i halved it. I made one loaf with just flour, salt and water added. Kneaded very well in the kitchenaid so it could stay tacky. I let it raise almost completely in the fridge so it would develop even more flavor, then turned it out into an enameled cast-iron casserole (le creuset type) with cover, greased and dusted with cornmeal. As it raised outside the frige this time, I heated the oven to max for a long time. When the dough was ready, leaving a dent when pressed, I threw three tablespoons of water on it and covered, and immediately put it in the botton of the oven and reduced to 350. Baked it till i could smell something good going on in there, uncovered it, and raised the heat again till this most wonderful orangey crust formed. tested with skewer. Ate almost immediately. Lots of holes (not like the real casareccio bread here, where the holes are half an inch in diameter, but good, decent 1/8 - 1/4 inch holes all through it, and a nice chewy texture. The first time i made a plain bread with such a nice chewy texture. 

second loaf, i added buttermilk and a tbsp honey, salt and flour (i can buy good italian bread anywhere here, but not this kind!), Kneaded very well till the gluten formed, then kneaded in a tbsp or so cold butter, raised it in frige - turned out on table, flattened, folded ends in, turned and then raised in greased loaf pan - baked in normal 350 oven, no water (not interested in the crust on this one). And this one is even more gratifying. My buttermilk bread always comes out tasty and nice, but this is exceptional, because it has a more bready and less cakey texture. 

thought it might be useful for other home cooks to know the details and the results. The proportions, well, i figured, take a recipe for bread, make the pouliche with half the flour, all the yeast, and a little more than half the water. Then add the rest of the ingredients after the fermentation period. I never measure precisely in bread, and since i'm not making huge batches for sale, it's never been a problem. 

THANKS SO MUCH TO BOTH OF YOU and just to show my appreciation i will actually use a smiley!:bounce: (which is quite a rare thing for me)


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## retrevr (Sep 18, 2006)

Hydration..over 60%. For that type of dough, it should be pretty dificult to manage when it comes out of the mixer. It will not ball-up. You need to flour your hands and the board well. Use the bench knife to help handle the dough.

Don't punch down....Do a "turn"
A "turn" is like what you do when making puff paste. 
Do your bulk fermentation. Then put the dough out on the board. Gently fold the dough in on itself like you would a fold a letter. Turn the dough 90degrees and fold it gently again. Resume with proofing.

A really wet dough will be a little less sticky after the first ferment and by the time the rise is complete, it will be easier to handle.

When you scale, try not to make a bunch of cuts. When you get good, you can get the propper size with the first cut.

Do not over work the scaled dough. My cooks have a tendency to want to ball it up like a pizza dough. No. Just gently tuck it into a ball.
Let it rest. It will be dificult to shape if you don't let it relax. This lets you be gentle with it as you shape it.

For cibatta, just gently pull it into shape.

The best you can hope for with all the voodoo steam is a nice crust hen it comes out of the oven. It will go away in an hour or two.


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

So after all the experimentations that we have tried on this thread, can someone tell me WHY home ovens don't turn out loaves as nice as professional ovens? 

From what I understand, the steam only helps within the first few minutes. So what exactly would give us the air pockets we are looking for in the bread? So far, the only thing that gave me reasonable airpockets was the HIGH water to flour ratio...but even that didn't provide the LARGE airpockets. (granted, I hadn't tried Felix's suggestion of bulk fermenting for 16+ hours--I promise I will next time). 

Are professional ovens THAT much hotter? Does that increase the airpockets? I will admit that after my three or four batches, I probably won't be making ciabatta soon (despite finally getting good results). But I am curious what give the "professional" loaves those airpockets. 

Along the lines of Retriever's post, I had a very high water to flour ratio--and that helped. But still not quite the final appearance I wanted. Ah...the joys of cooking!:chef:


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## retrevr (Sep 18, 2006)

THat is what I was addressing. The air pockets don't have a lot to do with the oven or the steaming. It is the hydration and how the dough is handled (assuming that the formula is good and it comes out of the mixer in good order).
Not all commercial ovens are capable either. I have six ovens and none of them will put out a good baguette. I don't have decks or steam. I can put out a pretty dam nice crust, but it goes away fast. It is still pleasant and has a chewiness, but not the crispiness I'd like.
THat is why I play to the strengths of what I have. I produce a focaccia that is brushed with olive oil, so it does not rely on a crisp crust. It has a nice irregular crumb, good flavor and it is versitile.

Here is a though. 
Why can't I convert a pressure cooker into a steam source? I have a saute range next to my convection ovens. Seems like I could attatch a tube to the top of the pressure cooker and run it into the side of my oven. The pressure would force the steam into the oven.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I use steam in my home oven, generated by pouring a cup of hot water onto a 1/2 sheet pan on my oven floor. That said, We know what the ingredients are, but we don;t know what proportions. Baguetteg dough is kinda tricky. It needs to be really well hydrated and really well mixed. What was the formula that you used? RETREVR is on the right path. Someone also mentioned that steam is only helpful in the initial few minutes. Absolutely true. After that it prevents moisture from leaving the bread in the oven. The moisture waits until it comes out of the oven, then leaves and softens the crust.


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