# Individual rings lined with joconde



## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thinking about the other thread about production....I'd like to talk in more detail.....

I've always had problems when I've lined my rings with joconde, they stick and don't release cleanly (breaks up your pattern, it's unsightly). I've tried lining the rings with plastic collars and xxxsugaring the joconde to "dry it"( ha, that has the opposite reaction). I think we taked about this before and someone mentioned buttering your rings then using a torch to release, which sounds good.

BUT HERE'S MY PROBLEM....I won't be working in metal rings. I want to use those tear droped shaped individual dessert sized plastic slieves (they have a couple of different shapes with like 2 dozen molds in each). They come with a cookie cutter to cut to shape and a plunger to push out your finished products. BUT I'm worried...how do you prevent the joconde from sticking? How do you work with those molds? Freezing would have to be a must to release, no?

TIA


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## pastry--chef (Aug 13, 2001)

hi there Wendy what sort of Joconde are using and are you using a cigarette paste tuile paste for stenciling stripes etc.. I find that when I make the joconde (using tuile/cigarettes batter to form the stripes) that I have to bake the sponge a little longer than I would if say I was to use the Joconde for Opera etc.. also I find if I cut back a little on the sugar it is not as ticky when cooled down also try baking off the Joconde a daye before wrappping it very well in saran wrap then using it the next day I use the sponge in PVC and steel tubes without any problems. Let us know how you get on with those moulds I think I know the ones you have and i would love a set of those hexagon or teardrop ones really good for large production buffets and not badly priced.:lips: 

Cheers P-C

P.S deffinately freeze and try dipping in hot water, also when removing the dessert from the mould try if you can to push from the top out thru the bottom(stops any smears from your mousse getting onto your sponge.)


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I baked some thicker layers of joconde recently that would have made good cake layers and they didn't seem that sticky. I've tried a zillion recipes. Wonder if our old robotcoupe is grinding the almonds fine enough. someone here recently, I think it was Annie, suggested using ladyfinger sponge for ribbon sponge. I'll have to try that.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Shoot the mold with a little release, freeze, and place a hot towel over the back of the molds and turn them out. If your sticking you might want to cut a little sugar as PC says, bake a little more without compromising and you can also dust with a little cornstarch (nothing that will melt ie sugars).


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I've been using a recipe from Micheal Roux's book "Finest desserts". It's cigarette paste first.....I don't know how else you do it???? I have a petite four sponge that's more flexible, maybe I should use that........with cigerette paste or not?

Not sure I follow

It's a quick bake and usually a decision between over browning edges and waiting till the center is done (baked in full sheet pan on silpat). If I bake a bit longer I loose a certain amount of flexiblity (dries too much) at least if forces me to trim away 1" plus around the edges.

I've been freezing in sheet pans to hold. That could be a problem (hum?)?? 

Great tip about pushing top down...THANKS!

BUT, BUT these molds don't have bottoms, no way to dip in h2o, no way to warm center molds! JB Prince sells them, I think they called them a universal mold? 

Bighat, can't do a lady finger, too thick.

O.K. I'll cut back on sugar....I'd love any further advice or opinions...


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## pastry--chef (Aug 13, 2001)

Hi there Wendy I had a look at that recipe for the cigarette paste that you are using and it is pretty much exactly the same as I use. Have a look at this recipe for joconde and see how it stacks up against the one you are using by way of ingredient balance.

Eggs 20
Castor Sugar750grams
Almond Meal750grams
Plain Flour300grams
Melted Butter150grams

Egg Whites750grams
Castor Sugar300grams

1.Warm eggs to blood temp add rest of 1st group of and mix on med speed until light and pale lastly add melted butter
2.Whisk whites and sugar until firm and shiny peaks
3.Fold 1/3rd of whites into almond mix until loosened fold through remaining whites.

Bake off at 200.C for 12-15 mins.

Some people will say this is not the correct method for making your Joconde and I can agree, for the cigarette paste I want a sponge that is flexible, thin and will retain its moisture so as not to dry out and crack during baking, another method for Joconde is to whisk whole eggs and 1st measure of sugar to the ribbon stage then whisk the whites to a firm shiny meringue, add you yolks to your whites in three parts alternating with the dry ingredients. This is the method I use for the opera getting a lighter sponge than the 1st method but not as flexible and with a more aerated texture it detracts from the smooth cigarettes stripes. I see you are using silpats which are great things, I always use parchment paper and it works well specially when saucier or garde mange have stolen your silpats to dry out apple chips the best thing I find with parchment is that it is the same size as the tray so I get more strips and the sponge peels off easily as long as you let it cool down before removing the paper.Picture of Joconde 
Cheers P-C 
Ps about de moulding perhaps if you took them straight out of the freezer and put them in the fridge and experiment with how long it takes before you can release them using the extractor that way the sides will begin to release but the rest of the mousse should be solid enough to stop it from losing shape.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Your a wealth of info. pastry--chef, so glad your here!!! I've got a crazy weekend and I have to run. I'll be back Sunday or Mon. and get more specific.

What I use, from M. Roux:

375 g tant pour tant
5 eggs

40 g melted butter
50 g ap flour

5 whites 
25 g fine sugar

bake at 250c (*this could be a factor...da! I've got too hot of an oven???) 

Whip tant w/ whole eggs till ribbon. Whip whites w/sugar till firm. Fold butter, then flour into tant mixture, slowly blend in whites.


P.S. I love your photo! Also want to talk about parchment vs. silpats.....I'll be back asap


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Well life hasen't slowed down and show now signs of doing so soon. My tired mind can't convert my whites to grams....but I see you have more sugar and more flour then I do, plus a different method and a cooler oven.

Where did you learn your method?...just curious...

What your saying makes sense. I will have to try your recipe when I get a chance or I definately will change and use one of my petite four recipes with more flex. But they have almond paste (more $$) and a definate taste. So I need to learn how your method affects density/flex....? 


Also I tried doing my cigarette paste on parchment and it was miserable. How in the world do you hold it still while scraping?


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## pastry--chef (Aug 13, 2001)

It is a different method of making the Joconde Wendy, I was playing around with the joconde one day trying to make the striped sponge I had seen in a book, I knew what I was looking for in a sponge e.g flexible, solid enough to hold it's shape and a sponge with not to aerated texture so I just played around with the base recipe, as i said if i was to make Joconde for the opera or petit fours i would use the original method. Now the method for the parchment paper is easy turn a bake tray upside down then spray generously with waffle off or some other aerosol oil, place the paper on the tray and spread tuile or cigarette batter across your paper, the spray holds the paper to the tray when you comb it stopping it from sliding all over the place. Take the paper off with the cigarette on it flip the tray right way up and replace the paper down onto it then freeze. The recipe i posted before will do 4 normal sized bake trays. As to how the different method affects the sponge, by cutting down the aeration a little i get a denser sponge so less air bubbles in the sponge so it 's smoother looking, the extra flour gives the sponge a little extra structure so when it bends it doesnt break as easy, the extra sugar also helps with the sponge remaining moist and flexible, the lower bake temp means that the sponge will be cooked throughly so not sticky but without colouring up specially the bottom which would detract from the contrast between white sponge and coloured cigarette paste. the extra sugar also helps the sponge remain moist during the longer cooking process.

Cheers P-C
hopefully this answered a little of what you were wanting to know and i did not ramble to much:bounce:


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank-you so much!!!! I appreciate all your details and help very much! I'm so glad your here!


I can't wait to try your method. I'm really hoping this will stop my sticking to the sides of my molds problem.:bounce:


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