# Knife Sharpening ... what am I doing wrong



## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Ok guys so basically I have started trying to sharp my own knives.

I currently own a normal victorinox chef knife and a combined sharpening stones. I have barely any knowledge in this field and I consider this an experimental phase before I purchase better knives in the future.

Basically my issue is this, after I sharpen my knife I manage to cut through paper and slice tomatoes very thin but (this may sound disgusting to some) I usually try to shave of some hair of my arm to see if its razor sharp and I never manage, I seen this in some videos on youtube. 

For sharpening what I do is first start on the dark side then finish of on the lighter side, I do around 10min on each side. I have never tried with a different knife but I am assuming that I am doing something wrong.

Any suggestion or pointers?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

If you can cut paper and tomato skin, then you did well.

I sharpen straight razors and they are very very thin and very fragile.  A knife isn't meant for the same tasks.  Don't worry about shaving.

ps I take razors to 10k+ grit before they shave well.  A double sided stone is not fine enough probably.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

"Don't worry about shaving."

I'm so glad you said it first; that was my thought but I'm not in the mood for public shaming or humiliation today. Ha ha.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Firstly understand that you have a Vic. Without too much effort it can get very sharp, to where it will easily shave [arm] hair, but because the steel is relatively soft and stainless it cannot hold that sharp for long, and actually the first few strikes on the board will wipe it away.

If you just want to impress yourself then, after you have thoroughly deburred (a fairly recent post shows Jon Broida using the best technique I know of) and the knife is sharp as you know sharp, then take a few stropping strokes per side at a time, and very lightly, a dozen or so per side total. Make your initial edge relatively acute as you will need to raise the spine a bit to be sure your stropping strokes are hitting the edge.

But be warned! This may give you the urge for a new and considerably more expensive knife. And possibly the need of bandaides.

Rick


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## sickmick (Aug 24, 2015)

I use an old (about 20 years) 10" vic cimeter once in a while in my kitchen.  I've carried this sword around all over the place and it always comes in handy.  I upkeep the knife the same way as you've described.  It is easy to sharpen on a double sided stone.  I've found that once sharp,  a smooth sharpening rod realigns the blade nicely with about a dozen strokes per side.  In a pinch I can run it along a medium grit diamond sharpening rod, and then back to the smooth rod for a few more strokes.  The knife is actually closer to 30 years old but sat around at my grandfather's house before I began using it (he bought it in Germany in the 80's).  I'm pretty sure that the knives are manufactured the same way as 30 years ago unless recycled steel is in the mix. These knives (I've used a bunch over a couple of decades) are easy to have rebeveled when dull and come back to life afterwards. You want an approximate 20 degree angle when sharpening on the stone with a vic knife.  Go form tip to heel back and forth while alternating sides after about 5 strokes per side.  I feel the blade on my thumb after every dozen strokes to check for the micro bevel. After you feel the toothy micro bevel is about even on both sides, sharpen it only  from tip to heel while alternating sides at each stroke until the blade starts to feel smoother to touch.  Once you feel that the blade bites evenly is when you hone it on the smooth rod.  These blades are easy to get a scalpel edge on.  I hope this helps.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Hi Keith, I too own a victorinox and it's as they say very easy to sharpen. I just sharpened mine yesterday and it is very very sharp and the angle I'm using is about 12 degree each side. I sharpen on a 800grit ceramic stone and a fine stone I bought from a Chinese store. My sharpening technique is based on Mino Tsuchida of global knives and I can also say that the edge can last a month or two of heavy use if you're not hitting the cutting board too hard. Watch Mino Tsuchida and try to use his technique, I learned a few sharpening techniques and that is the one I prefer.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Hey guys, I checked out the videos you told me cysoon, damn that technique looks a bit hard, yes my knife cuts paper and tomatoes very thin with ease, I also asked my friend to get his knife(just like mine) which is brand new and it to cannot shave and it has a factory edge which I assume it should be good.

I will now buy a new stone as I have no idea what grit mine is and will start practicing the Mino technique.

Thanks for the help


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Keith Grima said:


> Hey guys, I checked out the videos you told me cysoon, damn that technique looks a bit hard, yes my knife cuts paper and tomatoes very thin with ease, I also asked my friend to get his knife(just like mine) which is brand new and it to cannot shave and it has a factory edge which I assume it should be good.
> 
> I will now buy a new stone as I have no idea what grit mine is and will start practicing the Mino technique.
> 
> Thanks for the help


I suggest getting some low end knives and practice sharpening on some Chinese sharpening stones before attempting to sharpen your better knives on your better stones. It's actually very easy Keith, steady hands and keeping the right angle is all you need. Oh and make sure you use the whole surface of the stone, the way I do it is I use the middle of the stone for the belly to the heel of the knife and the sides for the top part of the knife


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Will do  I, will see where I can some sharpening stones as they are not common here  thanks for your help !!!


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Keith Grima said:


> Will do  I, will see where I can some sharpening stones as they are not common here  thanks for your help !!!


I reckon a restaurant supply store would have them. Btw where are you from Keith?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

If it's basically sharp and cuts well but either 1) won't shave hair or 2) will only shave hair on one side of the blade then you almost certainly haven't removed all the burr.  You can do this on the stones but it generally takes more grits and/or more time, you can use felt or the end of a wood block, and often you can deburr on a ceramic hone.  A brass rod works if you're careful.  With felt you just slice through it lightly, same with wood.  On a brass rod you need to use a stropping motion.

It's best to work the burr mostly off on the stones.  As you sharpen some steel will kind of "flow" like frosting while you ice a cake. That peak of steel flowing off is called a burr.  Each time you flip the knife and work the other side the burr gets work hardened and weakens a bit.  Eventually it will peel off (and hopefully you're going light enough at this point not to create a new burr).  You don't want to rip off a big honkin' burr because you'll leave the edge somewhat jagged; it's best to refine the edge and work the burr a bit.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

I am from Malta, that's where I bought mine but he had a limited supply.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't know if anyone said it, but skimming the thread it didn't seem like it, but the first 2 posts mention something similar...


It doesn't matter if you can slice hair, or paper.  A lot of people mention that it isn't a good indicator if you do those things.  It's just something people seem to do in order to test it out, but it seems it can also KILL your edge to cut papper and such, but I don't know much, as I'm a newbie.


The real indication is if you can slice, what you intend to slice, you're golden.  If you cannot slice that tomato, that's your issue, not the arm hair.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Just use tools for their intended purpose.  I don't try to chop a carrot with a straight razor.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Well, I know but I need a comparison  its not easy to explain sharp over the internet so I just gave an example ...

Anyway I re sharpened my knife, using the method showed by Mino, I can say it much sharper now, tested it on a piece of paper and able to cut strands easily again I cant shave any hair  I am saying this as about 4years ago I owned a 30cm Global chef knife and it was amazingly sharp but I never sharpened it so I am wondering if its the blade or my technique ... I know practice makes perfect but I need to make sure my practice is correct and not get into any bad habbits.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

You better get a very good Japanese waterstone. Its difficult to sharpen any knife with a mediocre stone.

Besides a good stone will last you for years and is a good and necessary investment.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

So you go buy expensive fine stones, polish up your victorinox's edge and maybe it now shaves hair.  Maybe you cut yourself or get razor burn, poetic justice for doing dumb stuff IMO.  Does that make it a better chef's knife? Cut food better? Does it last longer between sharpening? The polish won't hold on that steel, and the geometry hasn't changed.

Never tried shaving with a kitchen knife, and I never will


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

I never told you to shave your hand, like I said I need an example and I have seen this done before I did not ask if its safe or not.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Hey guys 1 last question how can I re flatten my sharpening stone?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Flatten with something you know is flat.  Diamond plate is a metal plate coated wtih diamonds.  They come in a few different price ranges.

I use the one from japanese knife imports and it works fine.

If you flatten with something not necessarily flat, then the surfaces will at some point align to each other, but may or may not be flat.

If your stone has low spots, you'll get a convex bevel, which is not the worst, but maybe unintended depending on what you're doing.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Dry-wet sandpaper over your kitchen countertop (or any flat surface) will do it.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Sharpness testing

Paper. Printer paper has clay and such to create a good surface for the ink. It can be informative, but is a bit tougher on the edge compared to other tests. There are two paper tests. A draw stroke, probably the most intuitive and common test and a push cut.

The draw stroke is particularly useful for finding flaws in your edge. As you perform the draw stroke, when you get to said flaw, the cut will often turn into a tear.  However, technique is important to consider as you use this test. Generally, people give the paper some stiffness to help them start the cut. The common method is to curve the paper in your grip a bit. The stiffer you have to make the paper to start the cut, the duller your edge. You can also do this test more horizontally or more vertically. Horizontal is easier but masks the edge quality a bit. Vertical cut is more prone to tearing out and so is more revealing. 

The push cut can be difficult to get started. It takes a fairly refined edge to push cut paper readily. The paper will usually deflect some at first. 

The paper itself matters some too. Newsprint is much more difficult to test your knife in that printer paper or magazine paper. It's more fibrous and prone to tearing. Being able to cut a free hanging piece of newsprint is tricky, but there are some technique tricks here too. mostly about coming in at a downward angle to use gravity and the edge catching the paper to stiffen it up against the grip point. A highly refined edge is important so there is no tearing. 

Clearly then, technique, paper and the edge all play into what a paper cutting test can reveal. The paper test can be used to deceive a bit  even. It's useful to examine the cut of paper too. how cleanly is it cut. Is there rolling of the edge on the cut, how feathered is the cut and so one. 

I'll post some more about the shaving test in a bit. Have to go for now.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Shaving. As with paper, there are variables. I have very thin and fine arm hair. It will resist shaving in many cases. However, the right technique and you can shave with much less than optimal edges. Most people go flatter to the arm if it's not shaving. That just lets hair bend out of the way in my case. You have to go more vertical and scrape to shave my arm hair. Definitely no draw in the stroke, that's just asking to get cut. Shaving impresses people but isn't particularly revealing about the edge

Some printer paper test images to consider from a few years back.





  








paringpaper.jpg




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phatch


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Aug 25, 2015








This is a short paring blade, maybe an inch and a half in length, hollow ground. Really rough start and as it rounded the belly towards the tip, it went bad fast. The feathering in the clean cut is pretty clean. A little roll at the edge of the sheet but not bad.





  








minipaper.jpg




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phatch


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Aug 25, 2015








This blade cuts printer paper quite well. Again, some flaring of the paper, but some of that is unavoidable.

Cutting a potato will tell you about the state of your knife edge. A sharp edge creates a smooth slick cut surface when you touch it. A dulling blade leaves a wet pebbly surface to the touch.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Does some angling to get maximum stroke to avoid any push cutting on the tissue. So it's pretty sharp, but he's cheating a bit.

Hair whittling. Notice that his blade edge lacks bite. The hair skates and he has to get pretty close to his fingers before it will cut.






If he had cut into it at an angle towards the end so it would bite and be in tension between the knife edge and his grip we might have seen some "better" cutting.

Some tissue paper cutting. It gets more interesting at the midpoint where he brings out a knife with some polish to the edge.






Would have been more interested in how it did free hanging or vertical


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Oh Murry, you're so full of drama. I don't know that I'd care to wet shave with that knife.

Even though it's a good grade of white steel there is only so much you can do with a 6K King stone and a few swipes on news paper (which really doesn't do much more than give some shine to the edge). In another video he shows what looks like a 5oz max knife piercing a tomato skin with its own weight. He then eases the knife just over the initial cut and draws down rapidly the finger he balanced the blade on, resulting in the blade sinking about a half inch into the tomato. Granted it was a very ripe looking tomato, but most folks never had an edge that can push cut a tomato skin, at least not without squishing things considerably.



Rick


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

wow that is sharp !!!


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Here's Bob Kramer talking about sharp -






There is a difference between EDC (every day carry) knives and kitchen knives. I don't take my EDC's much past 500 grit. Too refined an edge and they don't hold up. I want an edge that can get me out of a situation.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Do you find it hard to cut horizontally into a halved onion?


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

No, but it's not my preferred way of cutting an onion.  I slice mine radially then across.


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## michaelfoodie (Aug 26, 2015)

Victorinox knives should be relatively easy to sharpen, at least sharp enough for domestic cooking when it won't constantly be used for hours on end.

I try to sharpen my knives with a sharpening steel and every now and again take them to be done professionally.

Have you thought about an electric knife sharpener? I bought one a while ago and it just takes me a few seconds to pull the blade through before I use the knife. There are loads out there, but mines a Robert Welch one. I got mine from Stephensons website. Its called a Robert Welch Signature blade sharpener.

A wet stone could be useful if you want to get a nice sharp edge, but I've heard it's difficult to get an even blade. Could be worth a try though!

PS not tried the arm hair trick but might have a go later! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I thought it was cool to do the horizontal cuts prior to dicing, but it really doesn't do much.  It's a matter of technique, takes speed and control, as well as having a thin tip and sharp edge.  No especially practical reason for it that I see.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Kramer's video is one of my favorites. He is not only informative in a convincing way, but he is completely realistic and practical.

I don't bother with horizontal onion cuts either. They only affect the end (side) slices and there are better ways to get them to dice. I think more people cut themselves with the horizontal onion cut than anything else.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I do horizontal first just because I find it easier to hold together. That's just personal preference, not right or wrong.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

In one of his videos Rick Theory does the H-cuts after the vertical slices.  But am I going to question a guy with hands that fast ad precise?  Ahahahaha, no.

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

If you have problems cutting onions, then it's either 1) technique 2) your knife is fat. Without seeing what you're doing, it's hard to say which. General advice, I'd say make sure you're using the tip of your knife to make these cuts. Most knives taper to the tip so it's thinner


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

Well, I am not finding it hard cutting onions  What I find hard is slicing through horizontaly after I have chopped my onion in half.

Yes I know there are electric sharpeners but I really would love to learn how to sharpen my knifes.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Stroke the knife through the horizontal cuts just as for vertical. It will often take multiple strokes to complete the horizontal cuts. I suspect you're push cutting them which is difficult to do.

There's a freebie video knife course that's good for this sort of thing. Ilk post the link when I find it.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Stellaculinary.com has good videos on knife skills and more.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

You can also check out Murray Carter for sharpening videos.  One thing to remember is when you think you are done de-burr the edge.  Drag it across a cork, or piece of pine, or felt block, etc.  If you don't have, or want to invest in high end stropping products like diamond sprays, etc. you can strop on cardboard followed by news paper - the inkier the better.  Cardboard has a fine clay content and ink is also a very fine abrasive/polish.  Learn the three fingered test for edge sharpness that Murray teaches it really works.  Then try the magazine stock test - all of my knives can do that.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Craftsy Knife Course is the video series I was thinking of. You do have to register with an email address but there is no cost beyond that. You will receive other emails hyping other courses for money. You can unsubscribe from those.

The first course is short and mostly intro hype. The second is also short and talks about the knives the course will use (as I recall). The other three videos have a lot more content. I didn't agree with everything taught but still picked up some worthwhile tips and consider it time well spent.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Let's not forget Jon Broida's videos, all on youtube. You must watch his video on deburring.



Rick


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

for what its worth, i'm also around to answer questions after you watch the videos


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## joshua43214 (Aug 29, 2015)

I will toss my 2 cents into the ring.

As a semi-professional (and past professional) furniture maker, I have seen this topic go around the wood working forums for as long as forums have existed. Folks tend to get all invested in one method or another, and I have seen some pretty ugly threads when people argue on this topic. I currently work in a laboratory and one of the tools I use on a frequent basis is a microtome for cutting tissue into 8 nano-meter sections used for immunohistochemistry. Microtome blades make scalpels look dull, but I honestly put a finer edge on my straight razor.

Sharpness depends on both the tool and the use. The paper test is IMHO a waste of time and about as meaningless as it gets. My hand ground cobalt tool bits that I use in my hobby machine shop will pass the paper test. Metal cutting tools have about a 75 degree edge on them. I free hand grind, take a few passes on a diamond stone to remove the burr then put it to use. I could care less if it can cut paper, but it had better be able to cut steel. Same goes for a kitchen knife - who cares if it can cut paper or hair, it only matters if it can cut food. Furthermore, it only matters than it can cut the food you cook, if you only eat veggies, who cares if it can fillet a fish and make sushi.

Learn to test the edge with your thumb and do not waste your time on cutting paper, hair, etc. There is no such thing as an edge that is too sharp for this. Just gently touch the edge and move your thumb sideways, you will be able to feel how sharp it is, and whether it is scary sharp or not. Remember, a straight razor is far sharper than just about anything you will ever handle in your life, and you can safely press if against your throat.

I am not sure what sharpening technique people here seem to advocate, but I worry about the discussion about de-burring and stropping. I sharpen on Japanese water stones. This is not the only "best" method of sharpening, it is just the one I prefer. When I sharpen, I "cut" the stone, and flip the edge after each pass. Using this method, a burr is never raised. The only time I ever raise a bur is when I drag the blade backwards across the stone. This is just old school sharpening technique, just draw the edge over the stone, flip, repeat. It makes a very distinctive and pleasant sound, and you can both hear and feel the edge take place. It does take a lot of practice though, it is important to form a muscle memory so that you always cut at the same exact angle each time. I highly recommend learning this by simple practice, you will find you can get a scary sharp edge in a very short period of time.

Never draw a knife backward across a water stone - I do not care what guru thinks this is a good idea. It ruins both the edge, and damages the stone. When a burr gets turned, the metal fractures and fatigues terribly along the edge, turning the burr back down just makes the problem worse. To make matters worse, water stones are very soft. When you draw the blade backwards, it forces the slurry down into the stone imbedding metal into it. Each pass over the stone should cut a bit of the stone off until you have a slurry, once the slurry is raised, the slurry does the cutting just as if you where sharpening using a glass plate and abrasive powder. I am pretty sure the whole idea of drawing a blade backward over a stone comes from safety nannies who worry about cutting your fingers off while sharpening.

If you want to see perfect wet stone technique, watch this video, skip to 54:00 to see him use the stones






Notice how he is not putting his fingers on the blade, he only cuts the stone, he appears to be using almost no pressure and his cut is always perpendicular to the edge. This video is a lot different from all the chef sharpening videos I have seen where the guy puts the blade on the stone then uses both hands to apply pressure and moves the blade back and forth or in a figure 8. You can support a longer blade with your off hand, but never use finger pressure on the blade - it will cut very shallow scallops on the edge that are impossible to replicate as you move up in stone grades.

On the subject of stropping. Stropping is a swaging method, not an abrasive method. In recent years many people have taken to charging a strop with some kind of compound, then call it stropping. When using a compound, you are not stropping, you are polishing. Sharpening on even the finest stone will leave microscopic teeth on the edge, stropping both aligns the teeth perpendicular to the edge and flattens the tooth by swaging it down. Stropping is best done very rapidly with minimal pressure. Too much pressure with bend the fine edge. Swaging is a method of cold working metal similar to forging, the metal is force by pressure into a different shape - no material is removed in the process.

There are sharpening systems that use ceramic stones and knife holders. I have used a number of them and they all seem to do a decent job for minimal fuss. Since you tend to run the stone back and forth over the edge, they do turn a burr. This can be minimized by switching sides more frequently and doing the finer sharpening by only cutting the stone. Ceramic stones are extremely hard, so they will always tend to push the edge back and forth a bit.

Now after all that, what about kitchen knives? My straight razor only needs to cut a few square inches of my face and is made from extremely brittle high carbon steel. My plane irons are made from high speed steel and have a very blunt edge compared to a kitchen knife. These are the only two blades I use that are sharp enough to split (not cut) a hair. Most kitchen knives (especially stainless) can not take an edge keen enough to shave with and still be soft enough for use.

I suggest you experiment with sharpening on food. Try stopping at 800 or 1200 grit and see what you get, you will surprised how well your knife performs on many foods when you stop sharpening a bit early and leave a bit of "tooth" on the edge. Tooth is not so great for meat, but does wonders for skinned vegies like tomatoes. If you really insist on getting your knife sharp enough to shave with, then get a knife good enough to take that edge and get rid of the plastic cutting board. I honestly see no reason to go to shave sharp unless I am cutting a lot of soft meat like fish. I go very sharp for onions and herbs, and pretty sharp for everything else.


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## keith grima (Jul 9, 2014)

First of all thanks for giving such a good explanation ..I honestly think that when ppl do the shave and paper test they do it as a form of "measurement" ... what I mean is that everyone can say stone your knife until its sharp but sharp is relative. Some say cut a tomato with minimal pressure but again how much is minimal pressure. So I guess ppl tend to find something which tends to be more common/easy to test by removing as much variables as possible.

Again thanks for such a detailed post !!


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

@joshua43214 - without dumping all that in a reply I don't think you understand what kitchen knife sharpening/blade/edge/geometry is about. You are inferring that Japanese knife makers/sharpeners are wrong in their technique. There is nothing in woodworking that is comparable to kitchen knives other than putting steel to stone. Field knives are even more different. I was a professional cabinet maker for 25 yrs. My planes and chisels are sharp as sin, but they are different beasts from my kitchen knives. The paper test is valid feedback as is the three finger test. I sharpen to different finish for different applications. There is no "lump sum" sharpening technique that flies across the spectrum.


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## joshua43214 (Aug 29, 2015)

@Mike9
With respect, I did not mean to imply that Japanese knife makers do not know what they are doing, and I tried hard to imply that there is no "lump sum" technique. There are many "best" ways to sharpen, I only described my preferred method for sharpening knives. I use a different method for cleavers, serrated blades, axes, saws, machine tooling, etc. If you believe that there is some value in cutting paper with an edge meant for cutting food, I will take you at your word for it. Maybe there is a tactile feel as the edge cuts the paper that gives you an idea of how keen the edge is. I do not understand how this tests the entire edge, and I do not understand how it can be used to determine when to move up a grit. The knife should be sharp enough to cut paper after honing and before polishing, not sure what cutting paper does after polishing other than dull the blade.

I have an extremely good notion of what constitutes edge geometry. I am not sure where you got the idea that I have no concept of it. Besides, the only element of geometry we should be talking about is bevel angle since all the other factors are part of the knife itself (ie flat vs hollow vs convex grinds, or high vs low point), and it is not like kitchen knives have any rake or clearance angles. Fussing over the actual precise angle of the bevel is pretty much a waste of time imo. Experience on the stone will teach a person the best compromise between durability and keenness, it will be slightly different for each person because both the food being cut most commonly and the technique used to cut it will vary from person to person.

You will notice I never went into a discussion over sharpening angles, let alone the geometry of an edge. I limited my discussion to concepts that are true in the type of edge we use on knives (a single flat bevel), ie drawing a knife backward on a water stone damages both the stone and the edge. As a counter example, I sharpen my cleaver with a convex edge similar to what I put on an axe. This is best done by using a swirling or figure 8 pattern on the stone. I only do this with oil stones, ceramic stones are probably better suited but I do not much care for them.

I will say that just because a Japanese knife maker is a master in the forge, it does not follow that he is a master on the sharpening stone. My understanding is that the opposite is actually true, and that traditional Japanese bladesmiths sent their blades out to be sharpened, and only sharpened stock blades in house.

I bought my straight razor from a guy that is supposed to be the great guru of razors, he nearly ruined my double ground singing razor by placing his fingertips on the blade while sharpening it. It took me hours to remove the scallops.

I once read a book on sharpening by a guy who claimed that water stones should never be used because the slurry created dulls the blade.

I once knew a 3rd generation cobbler who related to me a story about his father who died after 60 years of being a cobbler and never properly sharpened a lip knife.

/shrug, my point is that just because someone has a ton of experience in something, or is a master of something (I have a ton of experience at some things, and I am a master of something), it does not mean that they are a master of sharpening or that they use especially good technique on the stone. I make no claim to guru-ship, I only shared my experience and some knowledge - feel free to ignore it.

I am not trying to step on any toes, start a flame war, or make any one upset. Discussion and differences in opinion are good and healthy.

-Josh


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Lots of material to cover!  I also concur that some of the stuff posted above is either only partially true, not applicable to kitchen knives and/or factually incorrect. For instance, a burr will be formed with edge leading or edge trailing- to imply otherwise shows you've never seen edges under high magnification.  Sharpening without forming a burr is possible- even desirable- but I won't touch that one here!  It's sure to cause a firestorm of controversy, always has every time it comes up on other forums.

I also feel that paper is a very good test.  What is good for a microtome is not necessarily what's good for a kitchen knife, especially in the hands of a professional chef.  For example, I like a highly polished edge for virtually every task, including meat cutting, but I'm in minority among my chef peers.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Hey hey let's not argue alright? I mean everyone has a different way of doing things but it does not mean they are wrong right? And I do the paper cut to gauge the sharpness of my knives and I do not see the logic that it dulls the knife ( please explain if I'm wrong ) if my knife can cut through pumpkin and lemongrass, which are definitely harder than paper then why will the paper dull the knife? I dislike using the three finger test as I feel it cannot measure the level of sharpness compared to the paper test. As for the " as long as it can cut food " I disagree with that. A lot of people say how razor sharp is the fibrox out of the box but to me it's not razor sharp because I have a different opinion about razor sharp. 
I myself is using fibrox and I've also sharpened some other brands of knives too and I do plan to get a Tojiro dp when I have money, I wanted the hiromoto aus-10 as suggested by rick but my country's currency is declining very fast so the hiromoto is too expensive for me. Anyway these are just my opinion and if in wrong please do correct me.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I suppose even moving the knife through air dulls it on some microscopic level./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif But no, testing the edge on paper has no impact at all on the edge. It would if you sliced ream after ream of typing paper but that's not how you test a knife. I dunno where you sharpen but I have a shop; there's no lemongrass or pumpkins in my shop to test. There are edge testers, thumbnails, the barrel of a Sharpie, etc and all can work fine. The Carter/3-finger-test is okay if you like that kind of edge and know what you're trying to feel. But I like paper, the same paper every time. I go more by the sound of the cut and the feel than anything. I might be sharpening ten knives at a time when I sharpen, too.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Phaedrus said:


> I suppose even moving the knife through air dulls it on some microscopic level. But no, testing the edge on paper has no impact at all on the edge. It would if you sliced ream after ream of typing paper but that's not how you test a knife. I dunno where you sharpen but I have a shop; there's no lemongrass or pumpkins in my shop to test. There are edge testers, thumbnails, the barrel of a Sharpie, etc and all can work fine. The Carter/3-finger-test is okay if you like that kind of edge and know what you're trying to feel. But I like paper, the same paper every time. I go more by the sound of the cut and the feel than anything. I might be sharpening ten knives at a time when I sharpen, too.


Yes I agree. I listen to the sound of the cut and I also feel the smoothness of the cut. What I meant by lemongrass and pumpkin was when I was prepping haha.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, bottom line is if it cuts what you want it to cut, the way you want it to cut, then it's sharp.  In practical experience though many if not most of us that are knife geeks have a work space set up where we sharpen.  I have a battery of tests that I do to see if I'm done with a given knife.  There are lots of ways to do it though so whatever works for each person is fine by me.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Phaedrus said:


> Yeah, bottom line is if it cuts what you want it to cut, the way you want it to cut, then it's sharp. In practical experience though many if not most of us that are knife geeks have a work space set up where we sharpen. I have a battery of tests that I do to see if I'm done with a given knife. There are lots of ways to do it though so whatever works for each person is fine by me.


Fully agreed


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Hey it's all good - /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## pcrcrepaira (Jan 31, 2016)

phatch said:


> Does some angling to get maximum stroke to avoid any push cutting on the tissue. So it's pretty sharp, but he's cheating a bit.
> 
> Hair whittling. Notice that his blade edge lacks bite. The hair skates and he has to get pretty close to his fingers before it will cut.
> 
> ...


That was really amazing.. on how to sharp a knife...


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Hi guys so I received a knife as a gift and I sharpened it myself but it somehow feels as if it's slipping away from the food. I did a paper test and it cuts well and produced a smooth sound but when I was slicing scallions it felt as if it was slipping away but it slices shallot fine. I glide the knife forward and Let the weight do the work to Slice scallion. 
So could it be the asymmetry of the knife or something else?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

What grits did you sharpen at? This is a problem when you go to really high grits. I end up at 5000-6000 for double bevel knives. That's about the edge I like. If it is tooo polished, it doesn't have enough "bite"


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> What grits did you sharpen at? This is a problem when you go to really high grits. I end up at 5000-6000 for double bevel knives. That's about the edge I like. If it is tooo polished, it doesn't have enough "bite"


I sharpen on 1000 grit ceramic and finish on a Chinese natural stone


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Some Chinese naturals are very fine, like upwards of 20k, they've had 14K+ on ebay, and likely finer can be found.  Obtuse angles and and high-polishes do not work well at all with many food items, they will run as you describe.  I guess it depends some on the steel also.

If you want to sharpen your knife to <15/side, 12 better, then you will possibly find your Chinese natural works fine.  But for everything else try to find something more around the range millions spoke of.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Another thing to try, keep your edge thin and just put on a microbevel with your fine stone, use stropping strokes.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Well I do keep my edge thin. Will try to upload a picture. So I stropped on the fine stone and did the paper test and it's smooth again. I have a feeling that I didn't fully remove the burrs.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

So I tried slicing scallions again and this time it doesn't slip as much and I think it may be due to the part of the knife in using. I should use more to the center of the blade instead of the tip part.


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## cheffyj (Feb 2, 2016)

cysoon said:


> Hi Keith, I too own a victorinox and it's as they say very easy to sharpen. I just sharpened mine yesterday and it is very very sharp and the angle I'm using is about 12 degree each side. I sharpen on a 800grit ceramic stone and a fine stone I bought from a Chinese store. My sharpening technique is based on Mino Tsuchida of global knives and I can also say that the edge can last a month or two of heavy use if you're not hitting the cutting board too hard. Watch Mino Tsuchida and try to use his technique, I learned a few sharpening techniques and that is the one I prefer.


I found a video, really glad you posted that, was completely unaware of that person. I'm going to try the technique too once I buy a fine enough stone, which will hopefully be this week if I have the time, but I'm trying to buy a soft-serve machine!!!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Hi @cysoon maybe you didn't spend enough time on the tip or the angle is off.

Have a look at this 




People make a big stink about "holding same angle" and yes it is true to a point. There is even a whole industry of fixed angle jigs and guides. But at the tip your sharpening angles will change compared to the rest of the knife. If you sharpen it all the same, you'll get the dreaded edge pro tip, where the tip of the knife has a wider bevel than everywhere else


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

cysoon said:


> So I tried slicing scallions again and this time it doesn't slip as much and I think it may be due to the part of the knife in using. I should use more to the center of the blade instead of the tip part.


From the middle of the blade back is where you should do most of your cutting. The front half of the blade is more of a mechanical aid to cutting motion. The front is useful for actual cutting too, just most of knife technique is focused on the back half of the blade in cutting. It's where you have the most power and control.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

All of Jon's videos should be watched, but this one in particular cavers stropping and burr removal. In regards to the last, this is really the best method to use.






Rick


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> Hi @cysoon
> maybe you didn't spend enough time on the tip or the angle is off.
> 
> Have a look at this
> ...


I sharpen the tip at a slightly different angle so my whole knife is even


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

phatch said:


> From the middle of the blade back is where you should do most of your cutting. The front half of the blade is more of a mechanical aid to cutting motion. The front is useful for actual cutting too, just most of knife technique is focused on the back half of the blade in cutting. It's where you have the most power and control.


I feel that if the knife is more German shaped then yes but after years of sharpening my tip area of my fibrox is straightened rather than curved making my knife profile now capable of slicing forward and not as well for rocking


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

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Here are some pics of my knife. The blade, edge and the tip


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

phatch said:


> From the middle of the blade back is where you should do most of your cutting. The front half of the blade is more of a mechanical aid to cutting motion. The front is useful for actual cutting too, just most of knife technique is focused on the back half of the blade in cutting. It's where you have the most power and control.


I agree with you. I was trying to practice my techniques and I find that for certain food and cutting technique the tip actually works well too. 
I tap slice button mushrooms with the tip. And when I slice cucumbers and tomatoes I drag the knife backwards as I noticed that they do not stick to the knife all this. anyways this is just based on my observation so if anyone thinks these are wrong please do teach me cheers


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I have no experience with stropping but have used a strop glued to a flat board that's had a "paste" rubbed onto it.  It gave the best edge when the edge was dragged backwards across it, just like stropping a razor.  And I also drag my edge across my oil stones, both my surgical stone and soft arkansas as final touches even when the glued strop isn't used.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Hey dude, here Ya' go: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Hard-Arkansas-Stone-in-Wooden-Box-P81.aspx


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

kokopuffs said:


> Hey dude, here Ya' go: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Hard-Arkansas-Stone-in-Wooden-Box-P81.aspx


Hey dude thanks for the link but unfortunately I'm in Malaysia so I'm gonna have to find somewhere else


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

cysoon said:


> Hey dude thanks for the link but unfortunately I'm in Malaysia so I'm gonna have to find somewhere else


I would still insist on your getting one of those tri-hones. It'll last you a lifetime. (EDIT) And there's nothing like the ease of sharpening on a huge bench stone.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

kokopuffs said:


> I would still insist on your getting one of those tri-hones. It'll last you a lifetime. (EDIT) And there's nothing like the ease of sharpening on a huge bench stone.


Right now I have a 1000 grit ceramic stone, large enough for my knives and planning to get a coarse and a king 6000 grit when I get my salary


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## holynoshury (Oct 29, 2015)

cysoon said:


> Right now I have a 1000 grit ceramic stone, large enough for my knives and planning to get a coarse and a king 6000 grit when I get my salary


Hey cysoon;where are you buy a decent whetstone at Malaysia if i may know?


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

Holynoshury said:


> Hey cysoon;where are you buy a decent whetstone at Malaysia if i may know?


Well to can try your luck at hotel or restaurant suppliers. The ceramic was brought back home by my brother. Just curious, are you Malaysian too?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

cysoon said:


> Right now I have a 1000 grit ceramic stone, large enough for my knives and planning to get a coarse and a king 6000 grit when I get my salary


Aaaahhhhhh, your focus is on water stones - Japanese knives. Me, I use oil stones for sharpening my Sabatiers and Forschners.


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## cysoon (Jun 3, 2015)

kokopuffs said:


> Aaaahhhhhh, your focus is on water stones - Japanese knives. Me, I use oil stones for sharpening my Sabatiers and Forschners.


Yup, planning to get a tojiro pro dp soon.


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## kolokotroni (Mar 25, 2016)

cysoon "Right now I have a 1000 grit ceramic stone, large enough for my knives and planning to get a coarse and a king 6000 grit when I get my salary"

I have not met universal abrasive stones. Some stones give optimum results with stainless steel, the other is preferable to use carbon steel.

KING PB-04 Dual Combi #800/#6000 for stainless steel (1 min. 33 sec.)


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