# Sometimes I really dislike FOH staff!



## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

What is it with servers, expos and stupidviors in the FOH that makes them think that they can tell the BOH how to do their jobs?

Most of the time I can ignore them and let whatever they say go in one ear and out the other but sadly today was not one of those days for me.

It pretty much started for me when I got in.. FOH opener was late and when she saw me asked why I was opening and I just said to  her that I needed to leave early so I scheduled myself to open.  Why she cared I have no idea but whatever.  Then she nitpics at every single plate I put up.. at one point she told me not to make such fluffy pancakes and all I said was.. that is fresh batter and it makes fluffy cakes... and from then I stopped talking to her unless I absolutely had to.  By that stage the KM was in and she was getting on his last nerve too. 

Until 9am it was the KM and I alone on the hot side, working four stations between the two of us.  Normally on a Wednesday it is fine.. we have a couple of groups of regulars that come in and it's groups of six or seven and even with them the early morning it is fine as the rest of the customers straggle in over the morning.  I have no idea what on earth was going on but today was very different.  I was steady busy for the hour that I was on my own before the KM came in and then shortly before 8am, it hit the fan and we got killed. I was working on one side of the kitchen and the KM was doing the other.  We did cross over and help each other when we could but unfortunately ticket times ran long and well stuff happens. 

The FOH stupidvisor annoyed the stuffing out of the KM and I.. and the height of our rush she had the audacity to pull tickets from our side and check the times and tell us how late they were running.  Hmm.. we have the tickets right in front of us and we see how long they were running and by throwing her power around all she did was make us mad and not help the process at all.  Her actions ended up in a meeting with the KM and I and the owner as well as her and we told her to her face to let us run the kitchen and to keep her nose on her side of the  pass.  We run the kitchen very differently than the FOH and we see many areas in which she could make changes for the better but we keep our noses on our side of the pass and make sure the kitchen runs smoothly.

Thanks for letting me vent!


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## ljokjel (Jul 1, 2009)

Had one of these days myself today. Im about to freak out. We're already understaffed, and he's running around with the idea of having the same level of service as TFL. Trying to get him to get his shit together before we get a full hotell (tomorrow) and get his staff organized. The restaurant has the operation and diciplin of a kindergarden.

Camels....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If you let FOH, or even have them think that that they have complete control over the kitchen, then you have trouble on your hands.  I would have told her to get her hands off the tickets or get slapped on the wrist with a spatula.

Sometimes you need to take them down a peg or two.

This is my favorite way.............

You're a b'fast place, right?  Get a raw egg, blow it out hollow, thread a piece of string through it, tie a open paper clip on the other end, and hook the contraption on the back of the waitron's apron.

I have seen nothing--nothing,  funnier than a waitress with an attitude boldly marching through a dining room with an egg dangling between her legs.


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## iplaywithfire (Jul 5, 2010)

Way back when...

A waiter kept trying to nose onto my station.  My Sous went to the office and came back with a roll of duct tape.  He asked the waiter to step back four feet, then he proceeded to tape a line on the floor in front of, and to the one exposed side of my station.  Then he calmly explained that no one other than himself and myself were to walk beyond that line. 

I miss that guy.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Foodpump that egg story is great!  I would love to do that to the stupidvisor but it wouldn't have the same effect because she is always in the pass and rarely in the diningroom.

If the KM and I had a dollar for every time we have heard FOH staff complain to us that the stupidvisor is not doing her job and making sure servers do their duties, we could both retire.  It happens sometimes in the kitchen too but most of the time all it takes is a reminder and the stuff gets done. (we all forget something now and then)  If not, then they enjoy a shift cut until they figure out how to do what is expected of them.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I would tell her in a nice soft loving voice that if she takes the tickets off the wheel again I will throw her ass out the front door. The front of the house has no concept of what goes on on the front line. I would also talk with the KM and have her work a few shifts on the line so she will be more understanding in the future.

  I hope all is well with you and the family, my best to you for the Holidays have a merry Christmas. I will think of you while I'm sipping a Mai Tai on Waikiki beach...........Bill


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## fryguy (Sep 2, 2009)

that is one of the oldest problems in the kitchen. It seems where ever your go there is that divide with the front and bake of the house. Not sure what can be done about it, but the best thing to do is ALWAYS remain calm and let them do the freaking out.....just keep your side of the street clean....Merry Christmas to you and all my fellow chefs

FRYGUY


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## stl243 (Dec 16, 2010)

we have a tape line on the floor...and a nicely written sign that says "FOH: by passing this line you waive all right to complain about having food, pots, knives hurled in your direction"

while we keep it light and jovial...they get the idea.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Both the KM and I have suggested to the owner that she spend a shift or two in the kitchen so that she gets a better understanding of why we do the things we do, and well.. we have yet to see that happen.  I even suggested with that she and I switch places for an hour on a Saturday so she could see what really happens on our side of the wall, and yep.. we have yet to see that one happen too.  As far as she is concerned her staff are perfect and never are in the wrong, and somehow always tries to pin it on the kitchen when there is an issue.  Both the KM and I will take it if it is truly the kitchen at fault, but if the kitchen is not at fault neither of us are afraid of telling her (or anyone else) just what the issue at hand really is. 

It's funny how there is always this divide between the front and back... you'd think that we'd be able to work together to make things go smoothly but somehow it just doesn't seem to happen.

Merry Christmas to everyone here... and Bill, enjoy your time on the beach with your MaiTai!  Have one for alll of us here too!


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The FOH has no business interfering with what goes on behind the line.  I'm not surprised at all that your owner will not take your dare and come behind the line, as that will show to her beloved FOH that she doubts their abilities and may side with you.

The bottom line is that the customer is satisfied, all the rest is moot.

Most wait staff are not in any way professional servers. If they were you'd nary hear a peep from them as they would understand the inner workings of the BOH.

Why DON'T you start nitpicking their side and see how they like it?  

NOT!

You are better than that.

I feel your pain.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Both sides of the "line" have the whole "us vs them" mentality.  The kitchen staff get their say here, but the FoH is just trying to get their jobs done, which is serving the customers.  When the kitchen interferes with the servers' ability to serve food, then the server gets the ear full from the customer.  They're just passing that along.  In the FoH mindset, it doesn't matter WHY the food isn't coming out fast enough, all that matters is that it isn't coming out fast enough.  Likewise, when food is stacking up in the window, the BoH doesn't care WHY the food isn't making it out of the kitchen, only that it isn't making it out of the kitchen.  The dividing line between FoH and BoH is the point of demarcation for "not my problem".

Server:  Food is coming out too slowly.

Cook:  We're short-handed

Server: Not my problem!

Cook:  Food is stacking up in the window

Server: We're short-handed.

Cook:  Not my problem!

It really is a two-way street.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

gobblygook said:


> Both sides of the "line" have the whole "us vs them" mentality. The kitchen staff get their say here, but the FoH is just trying to get their jobs done, which is serving the customers. When the kitchen interferes with the servers' ability to serve food, then the server gets the ear full from the customer. They're just passing that along. In the FoH mindset, it doesn't matter WHY the food isn't coming out fast enough, all that matters is that it isn't coming out fast enough. Likewise, when food is stacking up in the window, the BoH doesn't care WHY the food isn't making it out of the kitchen, only that it isn't making it out of the kitchen. The dividing line between FoH and BoH is the point of demarcation for "not my problem".
> 
> Server: Food is coming out too slowly.
> 
> ...


Compounding difficulties: one of the first things I learned when getting into a kitchen is that no one will listen to a thing you say unless you speak loudly and, often, forcefully.

"Excuse me, could you please try to get that food out a little faster, maybe, if that's alright with you?"--not going to work.


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## chef bert (Dec 27, 2010)

leeniek said:


> What is it with servers, expos and stupidviors in the FOH that makes them think that they can tell the BOH how to do their jobs?
> 
> Most of the time I can ignore them and let whatever they say go in one ear and out the other but sadly today was not one of those days for me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've had days like that.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Allium said:


> Compounding difficulties: one of the first things I learned when getting into a kitchen is that no one will listen to a thing you say unless you speak loudly and, often, forcefully.
> 
> "Excuse me, could you please try to get that food out a little faster, maybe, if that's alright with you?"--not going to work.


But it seems that the BoH has no difficulty in telling the FoH what to do, but when it's reversed, the BoH gets the "who do YOU think you are" attitude. You can't bark at them and not expect the same in return.

Mind you, I'm not coming down on one side or the other, just pointing out that it's a two-way street. I'm going to get banned to "waitstafftalk.com" if I ain't careful


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

gobblygook said:


> Allium said:
> 
> 
> > Compounding difficulties: one of the first things I learned when getting into a kitchen is that no one will listen to a thing you say unless you speak loudly and, often, forcefully.
> ...


Don't you mean "seemed" and not "seems"? If I recall correctly, what experience you do have was some time ago. I don't bring this up to nitpick, but because the dynamics in restaurants have changed somewhat in the past 15 years.


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## tufftruck (Nov 2, 2010)

I work in a 4 unit corporate place that has it's pros and cons, but the best thing is that every member of management can hold their own behind the line, at the pass, and in the dining room.  From the GM to the KM to the Bar manager. That doesn't stop the cooks or servers from our usual quips and jabs to each other, but it helps having people who know whats going on on both sides of the window, on both sides of the window (not sure if that makes sense, but thankfully the Holiday's are almost over!)


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## stl243 (Dec 16, 2010)

it is a two-way street.

i have done both, and the FOH manager has been a line cook.

we just focus on keeping things light, and fun, with an emphasis on the fact that we all work for the same purpose. only rarely will we have an issue between the two.

mostly its "if you need another side of something, ask for it.  dont walk back there and get it yourself"


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I have done FOH myself and found that I completely hated it, so I do understand where the staff is coming from at times.  For me I what I hated was the way customers treated the foh staff than anything else.  At one point when I worked at the cafe, I had a customer say to me after a conversation about education "you have your BA, why are you working here?" and I replied "just because I have a degree does not make me any better than anyone else, plus this is stress free, and gives me time to be with my children, who will only be at home for so long, and then I can pursue another career.  I also like what I am doing, who I work with and who I work for."  They didn't like that so much but did give me a good tip and were always very pleasant to me after that.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I agree, it is a two way street and where my gripe really lies is with our FOH stupidvisor.  She is "associate manager" and unfortunately very ill prepared to do the job.  She is very good at writing notes, doing paperwork and talking to the owner about how everyone else is effing up, but that is where it stops with her.  She has no authority over her staff and while she is supposed to be in charge, she clearly is not and it shows in how they work.  I'm wondering if it is an age thing.. she is  20 years younger than me and when I was in my early twenties I was pretty meek when it came to standing up to people, and I know I would have been eaten alive had I gone into this business right after highschool.


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## tufftruck (Nov 2, 2010)

I agree that the majority of the public treats servers as a lower class and it's a shame they have to rely on them for their living. My wife is a server/bartender and I am amazed at some of the things people say and do.  I think we as cooks forget about how they get it from both sides of the kitchen door...

In regards to how well our FOH and BOH managers understand both sides of the line:  I found out today that one of our AKM's got fired, about the same time I was writing my original reply, for blowing up at a server (the last in a string of problems apparently). So it goes, so it goes.

Good luck with the young Ms. Stupidvisor!


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Greg said:


> gobblygook said:
> 
> 
> > Allium said:
> ...


You are correct, I have worked on both sides of the line and it was 15 years ago. However, I still eat in restaurants occasionally (multiple times a week) and you can see a lot from the dining room and hear even more. Aside from my pre-historic experience that you reference, I can also read posts here, where I see the same bickering from both sides, so although we all now walk upright and can speak with words other than barking "ugh" back and forth, it seems that little has changed in the thousands of years since I worked in a kitchen.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I've never blown up at a server but I have told them that "right now is not a good time to talk to me unless it's an emergency" when I have had no time to stop and listen to them.  For the most part they are ok with it, and as for the one who gave me the headaches in my OP, I've been ignoring her little jabs and doing my job.  I just smile and nod, and do what I was going to do anyway. 

Unfortunately this week has been the week from Hell so everyone is stressed to the max and I'm not taking anything anyone says personally.  Two dishwashers quit, my daughter and I booked the holidays off... I ended up working last week but I only did three days instead of five... a few other people have booked off and we have been left with a weak FOH and BOH.  I have no guilt for booking my time off.. far too many times have I had to give up days I needed of so that others could have their days.  I gave up yesterday so that things would run smoothy and I am glad I did.  I talked to the KM this morning as I forgot to warn him about the 20 cases of eggs that are on their way to him today and he was just miserable.  The opener failed to show up... likely he slept in but with the KM giving up his day off to go in, having that happen is not good. 

Oh the joys of this business.. I swear we should all write books about our experiences!


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## amuse-bouche (Nov 5, 2010)

This is the reason why I prefer to work at Chef-owned restaurants where the kitchen has priority over FoH.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

amuse-bouche said:


> This is the reason why I prefer to work at Chef-owned restaurants where the kitchen has priority over FoH.


Even better is when the Chef IS the server! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Today I was impressed with a server.  Her table turned up at 5 mins to close and expected the world.. she did not give it to him and came to us for show.. they were treating her like garbage adn we just said, sorry it is past 3pm and the grills are closed, we can nuke food but that is it.  The hassled her but  she and we held strong and they learned not to go to a restaurant so close to close. 

Good on her.. she taught those ignramouses a lesson!


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

leeniek said:


> ...Good on her.. she taught those ignramouses a lesson!


Ah, but the mission of a restaurant is NOT to educate but to serve!

It certainly may have made the BOH and FOH happy, but how much are you willing to wager what those "newly educated customers" will tell their friends and acquaintances:

don't go to any restaurant at "closing time", OR
don't go to this place at closing time because they will not serve you!
For me, I'd MUCH rather have them say, go to ????, even though we got there at closing time, they took care of us, but it is better if you go early.

Remember the Golden Rule (in CAPS to aid your memory): S/HE WHO HAS THE GOLD RULES!

And the mission of EVERY restaurant employee is to liberate the "gold" from the customer and hand it to the owner/manager/boss so they will give part of it back as a paycheck!

That is why we prep/cook/plate/serve/bus/wash/clean/sanitize the way we do, because we serve the master, our customers!


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

That attitude right there, IMHO, is what sets the professionals apart from the "labor". When you run the business as if it were your own, you show the dedication required to succeed. Otherwise, all you have is a "job", not a "profession".



PeteMcCracken said:


> That is why we prep/cook/plate/serve/bus/wash/clean/sanitize the way we do, because we serve the master, our customers!


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## redzuk (Dec 7, 2010)

amuse-bouche said:


> This is the reason why I prefer to work at Chef-owned restaurants where the kitchen has priority over FoH.


Yep, me too. I dont forget they are getting some abuse from customers, thats their job. Deal with it, dont take it out on the boh. Thats why its a one way street, we are trying to make all the customers happy and they have incentive to give their customers priority.

You cant ignore them either, I'd like to just get in my zone and shut them out but that never worked.


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## njcooksit (Aug 4, 2010)

Hi Everyone, I'm going to have a noob moment here...

KM- Kitchen Manager AKM- Associate/Assistant Kitchen Manager It's the FOH and BOH shorthand that has me stymied Lend a hand? I'm assuming you're referring to wait staff... Thanks!


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## ljokjel (Jul 1, 2009)

Front/back of house


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

redzuk said:


> I dont forget they are getting some abuse from customers, thats their job. Deal with it, dont take it out on the boh.


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## redzuk (Dec 7, 2010)

Sure it is, that's what you do. I'm not going out there to fix your problem. Boh dictate's how you will serve the customer "properly", you are allowed nothing - one way street. I serve the customer, you carry the plate to the table when I tell you to, its that simple.

I've never experienced a problem like Leeniek is having, foh managers stay in foh. If the kitchen needs and expediter, it will be boh staff.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Well after today my casual looking for other employment has become active looking.

I called a dishwasher yesterday to ask him to come early as in for 0830..dipwad turned up at 0650.. thanks buddy.  Got crapped on by the owner and me and the KM are stripped of our scheduling rights   .. yeah it our fault the dishwasher is a prick.. thanks  So the stupidvisor has to approve our schedule and that is utter bull pucky.

Sorry I am bitter and angry..  and well the Km is the same we bust our humps too fo no thanks from the owner.  We don't kiss his ass.. sorry about that..

So the stupidvisor gets to tell us how to staff the kitchen..  Nice

Me and the KM .. we are  on our way out asap and let t hem sink as they may,,we were both casually looking but that has changed,

I can make more as a line cook in some places than I make as AKM and the KM can make more as AKm  or a line cook even than he does with us.  

They do not respect us and that is the worst..it is just BS

I will stick around until I  find a new job but I am on the hunt as is the KM...


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

gobblygook said:


> redzuk said:
> 
> 
> > I dont forget they are getting some abuse from customers, thats their job. Deal with it, dont take it out on the boh.


Dealing directly with the guest, whether it is receiving compliments or abuse, is most definitely the job of the service staff, regardless who is to blame. In the event that a complaining customer becomes abusive, the server should be trained to pass the problem off to a FOH manager.

As far as the relation between the guest, server and BOH, the server is NOT a customer of the kitchen. Servers are a liaison between the guest and the kitchen. The only customers that I have when working in the kitchen are the ones sitting in the dining room eating my food. It is the servers job to clearly communicate the guest's needs to me. I then prepare food according to their needs and the server delivers the food. Pretty simple, you'd think.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Let me state again, a restaurant depends on the Golden Rule, "S/he who has to gold, RULES!", and as far as I know, the FOH does NOT have to gold and neither does BOH, the CUSTOMER does.

And unless FOH AND BOH work effectively together, the customer will keep the gold and both FOH and BOH will go home hungry!

There can be only ONE boss of the restaurant, that is the owner or the owner's representative. That person resolves ALL disputes between customers and the restaurant as well as ALL disputes that may arise between FOH and BOH. S/he has the responsibility and authority to figure out the best way to convince the customer to give their gold to the restaurant, now and in the future.

If BOH perceives a problem with FOH, or visa versa, someone MUST communicate the perception to the owner or owner's representative and wait resolution. If no resolution, give your notice and walk!


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Greg said:


> Dealing directly with the guest, whether it is receiving compliments or abuse, is most definitely the job of the service staff, regardless who is to blame. In the event that a complaining customer becomes abusive, the server should be trained to pass the problem off to a FOH manager.
> 
> As far as the relation between the guest, server and BOH, the server is NOT a customer of the kitchen. Servers are a liaison between the guest and the kitchen. The only customers that I have when working in the kitchen are the ones sitting in the dining room eating my food. It is the servers job to clearly communicate the guest's needs to me. I then prepare food according to their needs and the server delivers the food. Pretty simple, you'd think.


Wow, just wow. Enjoy your success.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Clarify, please. I really don't understand how having the attitude that, while FOH plays a key role in communication, keeping the needs of actual paying customers at the forefront of what I do is detrimental to success. I've actually led a BOH operation through high volume doing high-end food successfully, how about you?



gobblygook said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> > Dealing directly with the guest, whether it is receiving compliments or abuse, is most definitely the job of the service staff, regardless who is to blame. In the event that a complaining customer becomes abusive, the server should be trained to pass the problem off to a FOH manager.
> ...


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I thought I'd update as of my situation and well... I am now actively  looking for other employment.

Today was the straw that broke the camel's back for me and truly showed me that the owner does not value either mine or the KM's opinion.

I called a dishwasher yesterday and asked him to come in at 0830... he turned up at 0700 and claimed I wanted him there at that time.  That is crap as if we need dishes done a that hour one of the cooks or the KM and/or I will do it.  The stupidvisor did not come to me at all regarding his start time but went straight to the owner so of course I got raked over the coals and I toild them what I asked but still it was not good enough for them.

So now..,. get this.. the KM and I are not allowed to post a schedule unless the stupidvisor approves it...  Nice.huh?  So  it seems we are lab rats who cannot do their jobs just because the dishwasher thought for himself.  Grand....

I have already been casually looking as I have not been liking the way things have been heading, but after today my search has become more serious.  I  love the KM  to bits but I cannot work where I am not valued  and that is becoming more and more apparent each day that I am there.  I need to get out of there... I am being fussy in my search so I know it might take time but my goal is to be out of there within the next three months.  I have no problems with taking a line cook job again if it appears that my work will be appreciated.

It is sad...before the stupidvisor came into the picture the KM and I were appreciated and our opinions were valued.  Her head is so far up the owner's backend that I bet she has no idea of what daylight looks like and she and the owner seem fine with that.  I know it will catch up to them one day but it is not going to be on mine or the KM's back when it happens.

So that is my story...


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## chutney (Jan 2, 2011)

Hello,
I have read a lot of your posts and you seem to have a handle on working in a kitchen. Good luck finding a job that will mesh with you. Keep your head high and go for it.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Thanks Chutney, I'm sure something will come along that feels right.   I've applied to two places already that appear to be what I am looking for and I'll keep looking.

The whole issue with the stupidvisor must really be bothering me as I made two separate posts on the topic.  I called the KM this morning and warned him that he is in for a lecture and his words were  "what else is new?"


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## gidsmama (Dec 26, 2010)

Well I certainly hope you feel better!! sometimes the only way to get rid of it is to vent, and this is a great place to do it!  I don't know how you guys do it.....me in a kitchen with access to several sharp instruments, lil miss thang would be begging for a job at mcd's.

Hope the rest of your week is fabulous!! cheers!


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## gidsmama (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh my gosh, the customer is your paycheck, grow up, you are not in high school, arguing over who is right or wrong or whom should be dealing with whom.  I realize everyone's opinions are valuable and informative (for someone not in the industry) seems pretty silly to me to argue over semantics when at the end of the day the only one who really counts, is the customer.  As a regular patron, a paying customer, I don't give a crap who screwed up my order, my front line to deal with it is who?  first, my server!  Personally, if it is a nice restaurant, this is how I expect it to go.  (I may not work IN a restaurant, but work for a company that starts and supplies, so am very familiar with all aspects) .

This is only if there actually is an issue and not some [email protected] that finds something wrong in everything! If the issue addressed is a service issue, deal with FOH only, if it turns out to be an BOH issue, then that is what should be explained to the customer.  The reason I always like to know is because it is very dependent on who is getting my tip, and also if I come back.  Money is not the best in this industry and I have personally ensured that the BOH does not get my tip or that the FOH didn't, whatever I felt was right.  So, just do your job lol

And i will keep you busy

Cheers!


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I think it's all in where you work and who you work with and for.   The divide between FOH and BOH seems to be something that has been around forever and for me my frustration is that the principal owner where I work values the FOH over the BOH and the FOH staff know it, so to them it is completely acceptable for them to treat us as they do.  I go in there every day, work my backside off and for what.. to be told that the KM and I are incompetent at scheduling and now the FOH stupidvisor has to approve our schedules.  All that he has accomplished with that is give the KM and I the kickstart we need to find other employment.  It has nothing to do with the customer but everything to do with how we are perceived and treated.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I'm a former restaurant owner and working on starting a new one. I've held various management positions in restaurants. However, I'm really not interested in playing "who's got the bigger <knife>" with you. The fact that you not only fail to recognize the server as your internal customer but further dismiss such an idea is astounding. Are you an executive chef, a sous chef, or what? You seem to lack some of the basics of business culture that would seem to hold you back. You indicate that this obviously has not held you back, so you're clearly doing something right.



Greg said:


> Clarify, please. I really don't understand how having the attitude that, while FOH plays a key role in communication, keeping the needs of actual paying customers at the forefront of what I do is detrimental to success. I've actually led a BOH operation through high volume doing high-end food successfully, how about you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

There clearly is an issue when you refer to this person as the stupidvisor repeatedly. Normally, there's a FOH manager, a BOH manager, and a GM. It sounds as though the owner has taken on the role of GM. I believe that your job title is AKM (just going by memory, so forgive me if I'm wrong). The KM should be the person feeling all the heat here, and of course, stuff rolls downhill, so the KM should be sharing his reaming with you. For the FOH manager to be coming down on you directly seems completely out of the chain of command. I won't argue that the GM controls the chain of command and can do whatever he/she wants, but the FOH manager should complain to the KM about you, and if not available, then the GM. It just sounds like the restaurant is being run "casually" and when that happens, the one who barks the most and the loudest usually gets listened to, whether that person is right or wrong.

I wish you the best of luck in your search.



leeniek said:


> Today was the straw that broke the camel's back for me and truly showed me that the owner does not value either mine or the KM's opinion.
> 
> I called a dishwasher yesterday and asked him to come in at 0830... he turned up at 0700 and claimed I wanted him there at that time. That is crap as if we need dishes done a that hour one of the cooks or the KM and/or I will do it. The stupidvisor did not come to me at all regarding his start time but went straight to the owner so of course I got raked over the coals and I toild them what I asked but still it was not good enough for them.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

leeniek said:


> I thought I'd update as of my situation and well... I am now actively looking for other employment.
> 
> Today was the straw that broke the camel's back for me and truly showed me that the owner does not value either mine or the KM's opinion.
> 
> I called a dishwasher yesterday and asked him to come in at 0830... he turned up at 0700 and claimed I wanted him there at that time. That is crap as if we need dishes done a that hour one of the cooks or the KM and/or I will do it. The stupidvisor did not come to me at all regarding his start time but went straight to the owner so of course I got raked over the coals and I toild them what I asked but still it was not good enough for them.


Why didn't you just tell him to go back home and/or refuse to allow him to clock in? Places I've worked require a supervisor override to allow early clock-ins. Even if unhappy about showing up early and being told he's too early, he should hopefully be able to understand the concept of labor cost.



GidsMama said:


> Money is not the best in this industry and I have personally ensured that the BOH does not get my tip or that the FOH didn't, whatever I felt was right. So, just do your job lol
> And i will keep you busy
> 
> Cheers!


BOH gets tips? I'd cease despising customers and FOH if more people sent tips to the back.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

Viewing servers as internal customers strikes me as odd. End goal is to satisfy the actual patrons; sometimes servers make mistakes, and if viewed as customers, then we should be aiming to keep the server satisfied rather than the guy sitting at the table with the credit card. The customer is always right--the server is not always right (when they step behind the line, mess up an order, pull someone else's plate, start eating off a plate, &c.) and our aim should not be to keep them as happy as possible.

I view the 'working together to satisfy the actual customer' approach as a more satisfactory paradigm. Alternatively: know your job, do your job properly, don't worry about how the whole system is perceived--it's philosophical (id est, BS) rather than practical.



gobblygook said:


> I'm a former restaurant owner and working on starting a new one. I've held various management positions in restaurants. However, I'm really not interested in playing "who's got the bigger <knife>" with you. The fact that you not only fail to recognize the server as your internal customer but further dismiss such an idea is astounding. Are you an executive chef, a sous chef, or what? You seem to lack some of the basics of business culture that would seem to hold you back. You indicate that this obviously has not held you back, so you're clearly doing something right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Perhaps I've spent too much time at the corporate BS trough. It just seems like some folks think of the FOH as a giant pool of uselessness, and that's the mindset I'm trying to combat. One thing that the "rise of foodies" seems to have brought about is this feeling of superiority by "chefs". The $10 line cook may get more respect from the general public (or the foodie subset) than he used to, but he's still a $10 line cook and he's not a commodity. This isn't to say that any line cook is as good as the next, just that most everyone can be replaced (easily). Unless your name is bringing people in the door, the customer doesn't know who you are or care who you are. As such, whether you work at the restaurant or not, doesn't impact the customer base. My rule of thumb is that if you have to tell everyone how important you are, you're probably the one that's wrong.



Allium said:


> Viewing servers as internal customers strikes me as odd.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

IMHO, FOH & BOH both serve the customer, the one with the MONEY to pay the labor and bills!

It is the responsibility of whomever "runs the restaurant" to make sure that FOH and BOH work together, and that person is the ONLY one with the authority to tell either FOH or BOH how to run their part!

That being said, neither FOH nor BOH has the authority, let alone the responsibility, to tell the other how to function or what to do!

Neither FOH nor BOH can function effectively without the other unless they are one and the same!

The mission of both FOH and BOH is the same: To provide a customer with a service that will cause the customer to part with money in return! Anything and everything else is irrelevant!

And ANYONE, from the owner/investor/chef to the lowest paid busser/dishwasher, who does not believe and ascribe to that mission, IMHO, should be considered as an obstacle to the potential success of the restaurant and should be removed from any and all operational responsibilities and authority immediately.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *PeteMcCracken*
> 
> The mission of both FOH and BOH is the same: To provide a customer with a service that will cause the customer to part with money in return! Anything and everything else is irrelevant!
> 
> And ANYONE, from the owner/investor/chef to the lowest paid busser/dishwasher, who does not believe and ascribe to that mission, IMHO, should be considered as an obstacle to the potential success of the restaurant and should be removed from any and all operational responsibilities and authority immediately.


I sort of just view customers as this strange, abstract concept people sometimes talk about. Theoretically, they're somehow responsible for the tickets I see. Prime movers setting the whole thing in motion. But I remain skeptical as to their actual existence. 

More seriously, doing a job is a matter of performing one's function. Motivation (such as getting the customer's money) doesn't really matter, as long as motivation of some sort is there (money and pride, in my case). I can go all day without thinking once about customers.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Guys  please.... I'm sorry my posting  has caused so much discourse here.   It was intended solely as a vent as I am in a situation that is not working well for me or the KM and both of us are feeling undervalued at the best of times. 

On a positive note.. I have an interview on Thursday at a family owned and operated place...I sent off my resume to them and they replied within a couple of hours.


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## redzuk (Dec 7, 2010)

Servers have a great deal to do the the guest's overall experience, no doubt, foh should never have any control over the kitchen.  Whats happening with leeniek is what you get, give them an inch they take a mile, never fails. 

I've worked with foh managers who were ex chefs, technically they have the same authority as the chef, but they didnt manage boh ever.  If a major problem comes up they might come back to get it resolved.  They might hang out and watch the boh on occasion, so they better understand the menu. If they have an idea or suggestion they go to the chef, dont interfere with the chefs staff.  

I'd hate to see the feeble minded chef or KM that goes to work in a place where he is told to serve the servers.


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## gidsmama (Dec 26, 2010)

Are you kidding me?  It is very well known within the are I live that the kitchen staff received a portion of all tips.  Most respectable restaurants around here ensure they keep their staff all giving quality service by ensuring all tips get collected in one place and at the end of the night, a percentage is divided up.  After all, it isn't just the server who provided the service.  If a server does poorly and doesn't bring in tips, the other servers ensure that doesn't happen again, it affects their tips, if food came out slowly or poorly, it affects their tips, so then rest of the kitchen staff kicks the weakest in the kitchen into a better cook.  I know a restaurant that has a very good system regarding tips, his employees love it, it keeps them encouraging each other to have a kick ass service and then they all can be proud of themselves and reap the benefits of an entire team working together.  If anyone wants it, I an get it

Again, tho, sorry for butting my nose in on the wrong forum, silly newbies, we are just like lemmings lol


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## gidsmama (Dec 26, 2010)

leeniek: is there not a way to approach your owner/gm and explain the negative impact it's having on their restaurant? If you go in with suggestions, you might succeed.  While no one wants to be told they don't do their jobs well, could your FOH staff not go for course on service and customer service?  They are available here, at the end of the day it has to be a well oiled machine...which it can't if everyone prefers rust


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm not sure if that will do any good.  I think the time has come for me to make a change.  It's not going to be easy as I really like who I work with and for, but I have to do this for me.  I want to be happy again and to be honest this has been coming for a while, and Monday's episode just sealed the deal for me.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

GidsMama said:


> Are you kidding me? It is very well known within the are I live that the kitchen staff received a portion of all tips. Most respectable restaurants around here ensure they keep their staff all giving quality service by ensuring all tips get collected in one place and at the end of the night, a percentage is divided up. ..


I'm not absolutely certain, but I believe tip pooling is illegal in California and in many other states as well. Tips belong to the person receiving the tip, not the restaurant management nor does any other employee have a *right* to any portion of a tip.

Now, there is nothing to stop a server from sharing a tip with the bus-person or BOH, but that is *up to the individual*, not management!

In fact, the particular regulations on tips was what prompted Thomas Keller, the French Laundry, Per Se, Bouchon, etal, to do away with tipping and institute a service charge that was under his control so that he could distribute as HE saw fit.

So, in California at least, unless the person receiving the tip voluntarily shares with others, there is NO way the BOH personnel are entitled to a share of the tips!


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Where I work now a portion of the servers tips go into a pool that is shared with the BOH and support staff.  It's paid out bi-weekly in cash and it works out to be about a dollar for every hour a person works.  Depending on sales it can be more but I usually count on a dollar for every hour.  At the cafe, if it was the owners working with me (and most of the time it was) the tips would all go to me, for the time that I was there.  They would save their portion of the tips from before I got in and use them to pay for the Christmas Lunch we had every year.  At the hospital we were not allowed to take tips, and if a customer did leave a tip we had to donate it back to the Volunteer Association.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

redzuk said:


> Servers have a great deal to do the the guest's overall experience, no doubt, foh should never have any control over the kitchen. Whats happening with leeniek is what you get, give them an inch they take a mile, never fails.
> 
> I've worked with foh managers who were ex chefs, technically they have the same authority as the chef, but they didnt manage boh ever. If a major problem comes up they might come back to get it resolved. They might hang out and watch the boh on occasion, so they better understand the menu. If they have an idea or suggestion they go to the chef, dont interfere with the chefs staff.
> 
> I'd hate to see the feeble minded chef or KM that goes to work in a place where he is told to serve the servers.


Ex-chef FOH managers are nice to work with as BOH, but one I worked with had a tendency to treat servers as a chef treats cooks. I'm used to screaming; servers usually start crying.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

leeniek said:


> I'm not sure if that will do any good. I think the time has come for me to make a change. It's not going to be easy as I really like who I work with and for, but I have to do this for me. I want to be happy again and to be honest this has been coming for a while, and Monday's episode just sealed the deal for me.


Good on you and best of luck, Leeniek. Leaving a kitchen can be like breaking up with a lover; you know you need to do it but it's like cutting off an arm!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif In the 20-some-odd years I've done this I've walked away from jobs where I felt like they were family. All I can say is it's part of growing up in the biz. But I never burned any bridge I didn't have to. I could probably walk into a couple places I worked 20 years ago and get hired back in a heartbeat.

Trust that inner voice that's telling you to go- that voice is your heart and it's usually right. You'll land on your feet.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Thanks everyone...and I have decided that the grass is BROWN on the other side so I am going to stick it out now but still watch..

I had an interview yesterday and as soon as I saw the place I was thinking.. run away... but I went in anyway as I am not one to bail on a commitment.  The KM at that place is a nice guy and they have a nice menu but the cooks are a motley bunch and there is no order  in that kitchen as well as no respect.  Their KM right away offered me the AKM job and that got my worries up and I declined stating it was unfair to the current staff to have to train their superior and I am not willing to take a management position in a place where I am not fluent with the menu.  I asked him to let me think about it.  As soon as I got home I called and thanked them for their support but I could not assume the role they had set out for me. 

My owner sat me down and APOLOGIZED to me for how he has treated me and he is very sorry etc.... and  he was incredibly genuine in his remorse.. he had no idea that I was so out of the loop on things.  I wonder what my KM said to him but whatever he said must have made him very fearful that I would quit. 

I told  him that the stupidvisor is the issue and he told  both the KM andI that he will come to us first for BOH questions than her...

Well time will tell....

Thanks for letting me vent .. you guys are the best!


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

my chime......in a restaurant as in life, something is either being done TO you or FOR you. having something being done FOR you is the more preferred...ALL of the restaurant staff is responsible for that, from the moment a customer walks through the door until they leave(happily)....in my restaurant, the tips are pooled and shared at the end of the night by the waitstaff, busser and dishwasher...as the chef and owner i do not take any tips, nor does my husband as the floor manager.....everyone works together, doing everything and anything needed. seems to work for us is all i know.....

joey

leenie...ditto what phaedrus said


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

durangojo said:


> ....in my restaurant, the tips are pooled and shared at the end of the night by the waitstaff, busser and dishwasher...as the chef and owner i do not take any tips, nor does my husband as the floor manager.....


Unfortunately, in California, tip pooling by management direction, whether management participates or not, is illegal as I understand itl. Now, if the tippee (one who receives the tip from the customer) voluntarily shares the tip with someone else, say the busser, dishwasher, other waitstaff, or even other BOH personnel, that is legal, but ONLY if it is voluntary!


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## gidsmama (Dec 26, 2010)

Not illegal in Canada, at least my province anyway, Alberta, cheers


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

GidsMama said:


> Not illegal in Canada, at least my province anyway, Alberta, cheers


Don't worry, B.C's labour board is cooking up something to mimic California's tipping laws, I'm sure Ab. will follow suit.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

PeteMcCracken said:


> durangojo said:
> 
> 
> > ....in my restaurant, the tips are pooled and shared at the end of the night by the waitstaff, busser and dishwasher...as the chef and owner i do not take any tips, nor does my husband as the floor manager.....
> ...


illegal? why is that? it must have something to do with the onus being on the individual server to claim their own tips...individual rights or something very californian...sounds like somebody sued someone, then the lawyers got involved, then some bill got passed.....too bad, really, as tip pooling promotes a healthier service environment, i think....maybe we're just more chill about money in colorado!

joey


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

durangojo said:


> illegal? why is that? ...
> 
> joey


Department of Labor ruling? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gifBINGO!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong, Pete, but wasn't the tips only for waiters thingee part of the "Governator's" election platform waaay back when?

It's not because the labour board has a love affair with waiters, its because now they (Tax boys) have only one person who gets all the tips (as opposed to the whole staff) on thier books, and that person will get dinged for for taxes.  It is a few bucks, and worth the effort to get such a law passed.  Call "Ahhnold" what you will, but the guy--or his "people", ain't stupid, they know where and how to squeeze to get those tax free dollars taxed.....


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

IIRC, the "tips thing" pre-dates the Guvernator, but your thinking probably closely approximates the government thinking process /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Things seem to be slowly improving with our stupidvisor.  She is learning to come to us when she sees something that is different in the kitchen and we have started going to the owner ourselves with the BOH schedule so that he knows why we do what we do. 

We call her a stupidvisor for a number of reasons and it really comes down to the fact that she is ill-equipped to do her job and I suspect she knows that as well.  Her way of compensating for that is to run to the owners with everything and of course to shift the blame for her own mistakes.  We caught her on one this weekend and she really didn't like it at all.  She took it upon herself to make changes to the dish staff lineup and that left us with three dishwashers.  If she had taken a minute to look at the schedule in its entirety she would have seen that I had the cook/dishwasher scheduled in for a dish shift and it even read 830-CL(DISH) beside his name on the schedule.  When the KM and I called her on her mistake we were given a blank look and "I don't understand" was all she said.  What is there not to understand??  Dishwasher Jim needed Saturday off so we scheduled cook/dishwasher Bob to take his place.  What else could we say?  To cover her mistake she did make a comment to the owner and he came to us with it.  We just told him the truth and showed him what she had done.  Sooner or later she is really going to sink her own battleship.

One thing that has come out of this mess is that we have learned that we need to have a weekly meeting with the owner and talk to him about whatever issues have cropped up for us over the week.  This is the first week we have done it and well so far so good.  I have to have a meeting with him on Thursday as he and the KM are both on vacation as of the weekend and I want him to know what is in store for next week so he at least has an inkling of what to expect when he gets back.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Don't worry, B.C's labour board is cooking up something to mimic California's tipping laws, I'm sure Ab. will follow suit.


I'm not absolutely certain, but I believe that is why Thomas Keller, French Laundry, has *banned tipping* and instituted a *Service Charge* (I think it is 20%) so that he can control who gets a piece of it, why?

Tips belong to the tippee

Service charge(s) belong to the restaurant.

Ain't gummerment wonderful????


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I have wondered why many US restauraunts include a service charge on the bill... we have always left a tip as well so I hope our servers got their tip that we left them...


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

durangojo said:


> my chime......in a restaurant as in life, something is either being done TO you or FOR you. having something being done FOR you is the more preferred...ALL of the restaurant staff is responsible for that, from the moment a customer walks through the door until they leave(happily)....in my restaurant, the tips are pooled and shared at the end of the night by the waitstaff, busser and dishwasher...as the chef and owner i do not take any tips, nor does my husband as the floor manager.....everyone works together, doing everything and anything needed. seems to work for us is all i know.....
> 
> joey
> 
> leenie...ditto what phaedrus said


 I would rather have done to me, for me.............


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## shadrach (Oct 15, 2010)

redzuk said:


> amuse-bouche said:
> 
> 
> > This is the reason why I prefer to work at Chef-owned restaurants where the kitchen has priority over FoH.
> ...


The kitchen should never take priority over the FOH. Nor should the FOH take priority. It take every one in a restaurant to make people want to come back. Great food and bad service? No one's gonna return. The lines of demarcation need to be clear, for sure, but that does not mean that BOH gets to be tops and FOH are nobodies. Not everyone can cook but not everyone makes a successful waitperson, either. Good chefs know this.

And you know, if BOH does an order wrong and the FOH hears it from the customer, then it IS your problem. You don't like it when people tell you how to do your job, they don't like it when you prevent them from doing theirs. Too many people in restaurants have really fragile egos, both Front and Back. It's just food, people, relax.


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## ronzhd (Jan 7, 2011)

This is what I refer to as the "kitchen curse".  If your lucky and working with pros in both the front and back,  very few probs.  The more upscale you can go, the less this is a problem.  If you wish to just do breakfast type of cookery in short order kitchens, it is what it is.  I started in a burger place and in culinary school worked a breakfast house.  Here is what I finally concluded and it has worked for me ever since.  Service is a lot more important than what we in the boh want to admit.  Great service can carry mediocre food, yet mediocre food can not carry medicre service.  Waitstaff  will throw you under the bus every single time.  If you treat others with profesionalism, you always win in the end.  Is it easy?  Hell no!  And then it's like an old Chef told me one time, I'm sure you have heard it before.... you know, if you can't stand the heat......


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I have a call in to our head office person and I need her answers for Monday morning.. the FOH "supervisor" was concerned when I said to her that I was talking to our FC from home. I told her I'd email her the outcome of our convo but come on.. how paranoid is that??? Am I that stupid that I cannot identify areas of concern in the kitchen and look for direction as to a solution???

shoot me now... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

One thing I learned in the military many, many, MANY moos ago, never go over the head of your immediate superior, but when you do (and you WILL do it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif), tell the one who's head you went over that you will, or did, go over their head.

Now, leeniek, that is not directly applicable in your situation because the FOH person is not, at least that is my impression, your supervisor, but it will certainly irritate the h3!! out of him/her/img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gifSSSCCCOOORRREEESSS!!!


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Ha ha Pete.. she THINKS she is above me and she makes 0.25  per hour more than I do so in her mind she is the boss.  She hates it when the owners tell her to "ask Arlene" about people's end times if they fail to log out.  Last Saturday there was a note on the computer and it said "ask Arlene to confirm" and she did not say boo to me all day.  Nice huh?


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