# auto-clor vs. ecolab



## left4bread

Our lease is up on our A-clr one rack dish-washer. We've been renting it for almost 10 years. We've been using eco product in our other dish-washer and our two glass-washers, though, and were strongly considering buying a Jackson machine to replace the A-clr machine. I always thought that it just went without saying; if you can't afford to buy a machine, then you rent one. 
But now after talking with eco reps and A-clr reps (who just contradict each other) I'm not sure which way to go...

Any thoughts?


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## foodpump

No one's replied untiil now, I guess

Eco-lab is going to make money one way or the other.

It is cheaper to outright purchase a machine and get the detergent through your local purveyor. Intial cost for doing so is high, but average it out over the next 10 years and it is waaay cheaper.

Unless you're running a hospital or senior's home, you don't need the eco-lab stuff. You can get the soap through your purveyor, hand soap at Costco, specialized chemicals at food equipment dealers or janitorial suppliers, and usually the prices are a substantially cheaper then through Eco-lab. Take a look at other prices.

Remember, with a high-temp dishwaher your sanitizng is achieved with high temperatures, not chemicals. 

Low-temp machines use much more "stuff", especially sanitizer (which high temps don't) than high-temp machines. True, high temp machines use a bit more power, but they do the job much, much better--especially on glassware.

Shop around and see who has machines for sale, what is the price, how much power and water do they consume per load, cost, and warranty.

Hope this helps


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## left4bread

I was kinda expecting more replies, but maybe it's a boring topic.

Why would only a retirement center need to use eco products? 
Another assumption I made about dish-washing machines is that the high temp machines are nicer (cleaner dishes), but use more than "a bit" more power. But you're saying that it's not that much power? I'll look into it then. Thanks for the reply.

Oh, btw, one of the reasons I don't want to buy detergents from Costco is that with A-clr and eco, I get free PROMPT repairs (minus parts if not renting machine). Very useful. I'm not sure I want to lose that service.


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## foodpump

High temp machines need hot water. If your regular h/w heater is good then you only need a booster heater, which boosts the water temp. Many senior's homes have the hot water temps set very low so residents don't scald themselves, an require a separate hot water hater for the kitchen. If you have 220 volt 3 phase wiring, then you can lower your power consumption a bit. A low temp machine will still require power to run the pump and of course regualr hot water as well. Low temps are notorius for sucking up sanitizer and detergent, they also do a poorer job on glassware simply because the water isn't hot enough to clear off lipstick, fingerprints, grease, etc.

Never said to buy detergent at Costco. Costco usually only sells powdered detergent: Nasty stuff, it is abrasive and harsh, and very wasteful when compared to liquid detergent metered out by d/w machines. It's also very hard on your machines

Most purveyors--the kind you get your produce and staples from--will carry liquid detergent and rinse aid, most purveyors will carry a partial line of cleaning and sanitizing stuff, you order it in with your regular orders.

Hospitals and senior's homes require very thorough sanitizing, and it's to be expected when feeding people with compromised immune systems. Health inspectors and internal management require very thorough sanitizing procedures and prefer brand name products. Eco-lab is great, but Generic stuff is just as good.

Servicing A good dishwasher only needs servicing maybe once a year--provided YOU keep up with daily maintenence and supervision of the actual dishwasher operating the machine. Dishware MUST be scraped clean before loading. If you don't, food debris gets caught in the pump and pump impellor, in the filters and filter baskets, in the spray arms, and in the rinse arms. Stuff like baby clams, toothpicks, wrappers, citrus seeds etc, wreak right havoc with the machines. This stuff can be removed easily, but you have to catch it early. Same goes for grease, even hot water water won't keep the interior of the machine clean, can't stuff a plate with a 1/4" of bacon or prime rib fat on it, and expect the machine to keep itself grease free.

Sanitizer, by it's very nature is very corrosive, and the feed lines to a low temp machine need to be replaced much more often. High temp machines don't require sanitizer.

Big boys like eco-lab like to do a package deal. Soaps and stuff for the kitchen and bar, handsoap and air fresheners for the guest rooms, etc. It all costs money, and if a supplier can't make money they won't offer the service. It's your money. A creative owner/manager will source different suppliers for soap, paper products, cleaning products, etc. 

Hope this helps


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## even stephen

I'd recommend buying your machine.....all the companies out there will rip you off if you don't know how to wash dishes and run a machine......ecolab,
puritan, cheney, etc. As the posts say....all it takes is one bar straw to get caught in the wrong place and the concentration levels fall and you rip through solid power or the like at $80 a cs like crazy....take the time to learn about your machine....figure out whether its better to dispense detergent by cycle or with a concentration meter....don't let the company you pick set the
concentration levels at optimum....its twice to much and costs you way to much....be sure and use delimer and maintain your machine....above all know your machine and monitor your chemicals...good luck


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## left4bread

That would actually be the biggest difference between the two competitors:
A-clr charges per rack, not for detergent used.
Eco charges for detergent.
In fact that's what Eco guys keep saying, "I don't sell dish-machines, I sell detergent".

That said, it would behoove A-clr to over dilute their detergent and Eco to run their mix rich. I don't believe the people that I've dealt with, on either side, would try to pull that with us. We're a fairly big account and it would be stupid of them to "kill the goose", so to speak.

Both companies rent machines, and they want you to rent -not buy. 
We're buying. That's all there is to it. We're not signing another contract. 

I just wanted some outside references; some opinions from people who don't stand to benefit from our decision.
You've given me that, so...

THANKS!


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## acrep

Dear Left4bread,
I am a Auto-Chlor Representative. I have worked in this industry for 10 years and possess a bit of knowlede in this area. 
Please know that I am not sending you this message to try to direct you one way or the other.
I am only sending this to try to help you make an informed decision. You can do the math yourself.

To really know if it is a good decision to purchase your own machine you need to figure out how much money you will save each billing period and divide that # by the price of the equipment you plan to purchase.

To do this you will need your *last 6 invoices* from AC. If you do not have these call your AC office and they will get those for you.

You will find the *"Total DW Cost"* toward the top right of your invoice, this is the cost of your dishwasher rental and extra racks wash combined. It does not include any extra items such as janitorial supplies or tax. Only the cost of operating your dishwasher for the 4 week period.
Add up all six invoices and divide by 6. This will give you the *Average dishwashing bill* for the last 6 periods.
Now add up the racks washed on each invoice and divide by 6. this will give you the *Average racks washed per 4 week period*. you will find this number on the top left of the invoice marked *"Racks".*
I assume Ecolab has proposed an *Estimated per load cost* and am going to guess that that cost is around 4.9 cents per load.

The rest is simple.
Take your *average racks washed* and *multiply by the estimated per load cost of 4.9 cents.*

Example: Lets say your run 8000 racks per 4 week period.

4.9 x 8000 = $392.00 chemical purchase for your machine.

Average dishwashing bill from AC = $412.00

Savings of $20.00

Now take the savings amount and divide that by the purchase amount of the machine and you will find the amount of time it will take to regain the money you have paid for your investment.

Example:
Cost of machine $3500.00 divided by $20.00 = 175 four week periods or 13 years.

You will also have to pay for parts that may wear during this time.
Something that you do not do currently if you have an Auto-Chlor machine.

Now you just have to decide if the amount of time to regain your investment back makes sense for your business or if you would be better off investing that money someplace else.

Hopefully this has helped you make an informed business decision about your potential investment.

Sincerily,

ACRep


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## foodpump

I've got trouble with those numbers....

8,000 racks per 4 week period = 2,000 racks per week, or 285 racks per day (assuming its a 7 day/week operation) 

One d/w cycle is 120 seconds, or two minutes . 285 x 2 = 570, divided by 60 (minutes in an hour), gives me a figure of 9.5. 

Or in kitchen-speak, the dishwasher is running 9 and a half hours per day non-stop, or every two- three minutes the whole day, and those numbers are based on a 7/24 operation.

The cost given for a new d/w is $3,500 which leads me to believe that this would be an under-counter model. No undercounter dishwasher can stand that kind of volume for sustained period of time like two or three years.

I'm currently paying $115.00 per 2 x 10 liter (or aprox 5 US gallons) case of detergent, and $175.00 per 2 x 10 ltr case of rinse aid. 

Granted, my consumption is based on volume, but $392 for a month's worth of d/w chemicals would be very high. For a larger place with banquet facilities yeah, sure, but for a place with a single tank, under-counter model?


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## acrep

Rated at 40 racks an hour, an Auto-Chlor Machine has a 90 second cycle time regardless of design (under counter, pass-thru or corner model) and uses only 1.5 (real world) gallons of water.

You are absolutly correct, 8000 loads is an awful lot of loads for an under-counter machine although it could be done, and with good service the machine would last for quite some time.
The machine we are talking about here is a low-temp pass-thru or corner model not an under-counter.
We have many locations that run 10,000 - 12,000 loads on this same machine in a four week period of time.
Lets assume that this location was only open 10 hours a day that would be an average of 28.6 racks an hour to reach 8000 loads in four weeks.
As this person said "we are a fairly big account" this tells me that the loads I have estimated should be in the area of 6,000-10,000 per 4 week period so I split the difference.
$392.00 in chemical costs for four weeks running 8000 loads is actually a ridiculously low cost for chems (Detergent, Sanitizer and Rinse) on this machine. Granted this is based on an estimate.

I would venture to guess that if you measured (cc's or ml's) the amount of chemicals being dispensed into your machine and worked the math you would find that you are spending more than that. Probably more like 5.5 - 8.0 cents per load.
It's easy to do, if you would like to know how let me know.


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## foodpump

Fair enough.

I do not like low-temps for a number of reasons, the first being that they usually get the "hairy eyeball" from the health inspector. Usually they (inspectors) want to see inspections every 6 mths for feed lines, pumps, and general corrosion. And they like to see ph strips to test the strength and age of the sanitizer. With high temps all they want to see is the final rinse temp., clean water in the tank and then they're gone

The second reason being that low temps do not do a good as job on glassware as high temps, and more importantly, washed ware takes much longer to dry because the final rinse temperature is much lower than a high temp machine.

The last reason is the cost of sanitizer. True, sanitizer is the lowest priced of the three (detergent, rinse aid, and with low temps, sanitizer). Still it adds a cost that can be avoided by using hot water. And yes, high temps do consume more energy in terms of hot water heating, but then a low temp will still draw hot water as well. So its 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other, but for me the benefits are much better with a high temp machine.

Most machines can be set for 90 seconds or 120 seconds. The final rinse time is the same. I find I get better results with the 120 second program. Virtually every new machine now meets the 1.5 US gallon per load water consumption, be it Jackson, Hobart, Berkel, Champion/MD, and a host of European machines that are slowly infiltatrating the N.A market.


Pricing. Cities, purveyors, distances and machines vary greatly. In spite of this, I have found that purchasing chemicals through broad liners or purveyors is usually cheaper--by almost 7%, than going through a chemical company. It is still the same product.


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## acrep

You have your personal opinion, and I respect that. You know your business better than anybody else does, as does Left4bread.
Whats good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.
I'm not trying to sway the decision to the left or to the right. I'm am only hoping to show these folks a tool to judge weather or not it would be a good investment to purchase their own equipment.
By the way the "Hairy Eyeball" (love this quote) has never been a problem with an Auto-Chlor machine. Health inspectors usually smile when they see one in a kitchen because they know that this equipment gets regular 4 week maintenance from a qualified service tech. It would be unlikly that this location has ever got a negative mark from the health dept on the dish machine in the last 10 years.

Thank you for your responses.


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## foodpump

Yes... everyone has their opinion. Problem is, the O.P (original poster) was seeking the opinion of Chefs, and this forum is dedicated to Professional Chefs only. I am sure the O.P has done his due diligence and contacted the AC rep in his area.


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## left4bread

ROFL

We received a visit from an AC rep a couple of days after I started this thread. _edit: I should say that they did actually mentioned this thread on this site when they visited._
When I realized that my repeated use of the company's name was making the thread show up on the top of a Google search, I went through and edited the names out of my posts.
I apologize for that. It wasn't my intention to draw unnecessary attention to the thread.
So, the replies are, more likely than not, directed towards me, personally. The numbers used are from my place. Yup, 8000 average; 10,000 racks last August. 

They found me.

I appreciate the line of conversation, but Foodpump is right: I was seeking the opinions of professional chefs on the matter. Both companies were throwing numbers around and my mind was swimming with stats and numbers. I just wanted a normal conversation, down to earth, with a few peers. I have all of the information from AC already so it's getting kind of redundant in here.


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## foodpump

Welcome aboard left4bread!

Do yourself a favour and check the prices on d/w chems with your Broadliner.


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## dish doctor

You are all absolutely right. I'm in this business 17 yrs & there is a lot of hog wash being brought up by chemical sales people who are trained to do say exactly the same thing: "I can do it cheaper", "My chemicals are better then..." - & Chef who keeps on beating suppliers' heads over 5% or 10% of the chemical costs that boil down to $30-50 per month. Guys, this is not a food comparison between egg and an egg. There is more to it. You know what really matters? 9:00 pm on Friday when dishmachine is down, guests overflow your restaurant & the guy shows up at your place with confidence to fix problem caused by some knucklehead who thought that leaving a chicken bone on a plate is OK as long as the boss didn't see it.

Get serius, going to Costco, Sam's Club, Home Depot to save 10-15% of your chemical costs that boil down to $30-50 per month? Why not to spend the time on stuff that really matters in your buiness? Besides, Warehouse Clubs will not give you modern dispensers that can help you control usage. The best so far I'd seen is an advice to get your stuff through a Broadline distributor. They usually have the house brands (no dispensers, except for overpriced Sysco stuff made by EL) and the national brands like EL, Puritan (owned by EL), JD, or some regional players - these will have a follow up visit by service tech who will do installation of dispensers that let you have some handle on costs (as long as your own staff does not get the glag, glag method of uing concentrates).

Last remark about glassware and high temp dishmachines. Anything over 160 deg F will speed deterioration of glassware. If your water on final rinse gets to 188-190 deg F, count yourself lucky if your glasses last six months. Low temp washing will remove lipstick, if wash temp is above 155 deg (min) and does excellent job at 160 deg F. Moyer Diebel makes excellent conveyor and "marry-go-around" glasswashers that are widely used in the industry (I do not work for them). They use hot (160 deg) water to wash glasses and COLD water with sanitizer to rine them. You absolutely can not beat the results. Moreover, glasses are nice and cold - to be used immediately without a need to cool them. Low-temp batch style dihwashers do not do too good of a job on glassware, as they use 120-140 deg water and grease or lipstick stains will not get removed. Poorly washed glass will not sheet properly, so it will leave stains. Regular, hot water dishmachine does good job (except fortoo high final rinse temp) as long as you only process glasses. Once you put your dishes, you get grease introduced into the wash tank and the results look poor. 

There is more to it. You can make any soap do the trick as long as ... you know what you are doing. This is what you paying for in your chemical purchases: LEVEL OF EXPERTISE. If you are lucky enough to find a chap who actually has enough scientific background in what he is doing - KEEP HIM, even if he is more expensive than Warehouse Club. :thumb:


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## ed buchanan

Have dealt with Eco lab many years . They are expensive and so is evertone else 
Soaps and detergents are one of the most profitable products sold. Markup probably 300% or better. To lease a machine for 10 years to me does not make sents. Take the monthly lease price and times it by 120 monthes see how muich it comes out to.Plus in most states your paying sales tax on 120 monthly payments. The trick with all these soap companies is these dispensers can be regulated by them to use chemicals in excess. The liquid detergents are 85 % water and the powders 85% potash or fillers.
Some of the dispensers were invented by Rube Goldberg( hope everyone has heard of him). Negotiate,Negotiate, Bargain, Bargain. Get best prices you can and maintain your machine to keep it running well. Don't let salesman send in product on his or her own . You figure what you need and you order, don't stockpile you are just tying up your money.
Bleach will clean many things and it sanitizes and is fairly cheap.


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## leeniek

I am going to mention this topic to our owners.. we are currently in a contract with ecolab but if we look at our costs, buying the dish machine outright and then getting the chemicals from local purveyors might serve us well. We have already done away the knife service and bought our own knives (from a restarant supply house) and a sharpener and that is working out well for us.


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## dish doctor

Yes, you guys right about the dishmachine lease being expensive. Yes, you are right about soaps being very profitable (no, it is not 300% - more like 1,000%). However, the chemicals and packaging are not what you are buying. You are buying someone's knowledge and servicing (Vehicle, tools, payroll, benefits, and the whole overhead), so he can point to you that BLEACH DOES NOT CLEAN but only optically whitens surfaces and that its prolonged usage will cause surface degradation (unless you slept through your HS chemistry course and have no clue). He can also help to get that dishmachine going after hours (when your service company charges overtime or lets you wait till next day), so you can run your restaurant. What are you buying in the lease is the maintenance, parts replacement at N/C, emergency service, training of your always rotating staff, etc. Yes, it is like a lottery. You sometimes pay for... nothing. Everything runs smoothly, machine never breaks, dishes are always clean, eh? Then think again. Maybe, just maybe, that service guy does a fantastic job. He is every time making sure to replace parts PROACTIVELY - before they even cause you a major breakdown. maybe he diligently tests water hardness and iron content, does occassional TDS test, tests and adjusts chemicals, replaces squeeze tubes every 2-3 months, replaces feed lines every 9-12 months, makes sure that fresh posters are there, and talks to your staff, so they do not make mistakes. Maybe, just maybe you should count yourself really lucky to have a guy like this. Do not assume then that you do not need him. He becomes an integral part of your operations. he helps you to run it smoothly. He is your PARTNER. So, treat him with respect every partnership deserves. Unfortunately, some people who call themselves Chefs, act like jerks to their service people.

Yes, you can buy a dishmachine. It's like with a car. It runs OK during warranty and then... breaks down Friday evening, leaving you to either pay for overtime (& you are lucky, if service company does not charge you $50-75 for just showing at your dooor). Then are the costs of parts and labor, and taxes, and mileage, and shop supplies - ever scrutinized your repair bill for convection oven? Now, when steamer breaks down, you can always use alternative cooking methods and get same product out to the dining room. When your dishmachine breaks down and you refuse to pay overtime to service guy, you need to pull 3-4 people and get it going with three part sink. You'll feel the pain on a busy night (yes, those things usually break down at night - Murphy's law). Then the extra broken dishes, pissed off staff due to delays, unhappy guests who need to wait half an hour or more fro their meals, lost future sales due to them not considering your place next time, lost sales due to them telling 10 of their best friends about a lousy experience at your restaurant. Then you wonder why so many restaurants never make it. You need to look for PARTNERSHIPS in this business - low prices are OK (& that's part of the job to look after them) but they are not EVERYTHING.

So, do as you wish. The best way (out in Hamilton, leeniek) is to get EL head to head with JD and a local supplier (EL is in Mississauga and JD in Oakville, so they should both have decent and hungry sales people to sharpen their pens for you and they both offer leased dishmachines). Better yet, get GFS (JD) and Sysco (EL & JD) involved to put extra pressure on EL & JD . Let them do surveys, pointing out each other's shortcomings and you just listen, judge, and make the best decision for YOUR business.

After all, when all is said and done, your customers (while vitally interested in how clean your ware is) came to enjoy a meal - not just a look of clean plates. Do what you do best: COOK excellent meals, get best wait staff, and let your guests COME BACK - this is the only way you will make it in this business.


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## foodpump

MMmmmm...
My suggestion is to get a new dish maschine, make sure your building's hot water heater is up to snuff, and....... to have a REAL "Chef".

By real, I mean the person who trains EACH person operating the d/w what to do: how to pre-rinse, how to scrape out grease and crud from pots and pans with newspaper or box tops, how to drain the tank, how to look in the spray arms for blockages, how to clean the tank, how to monitor temp and detergent levels. This is the job of the Chef, and a good one will, ontop of this have, a 6 mth inspection for ALL mechanical equipment. Preventive maintainence, I beleive it's called.

With EL and the like, the sales guy and the soap come as an inseperable package, either take the whole thing or nothing, and then there's the "Extras" like special soaps (and of course, special dispensors) for guest washrooms, cleaning materials and detergents, and on and on. 

Your choice, or rather your manger's choice.


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## left4bread

Aye.

...OR rather, the owner's choice 

I appreciate the CPR on this thread. It is actually STILL an issue I'm dealing with personally. I, speaking for myself, feel better about using EL because it's a product that our broadliner carries and my broadliner rep used to be an EL rep. If I feel unattended to, he WILL make sure that our needs are met. It's been put to test. I'm not sure if they are just trying to win my favor, but I've been given quite a bit of free detergent...They seem to be quite giving. 
I've got the machine that uses their product set to use MINIMAL detergent and miniscule rinse: they know and set it up for me that way. Also, they told me NOT to buy their sanitation product; that bleach was cheaper... an angle perhaps? Nonetheless, I still feel comfortable and safe with EL...

You are right, foodpump, the machines need to be checked every shift. Thankfully, we have a couple mechanics on staff who can easily deal with w/e problems the dishmachine can throw at us. I glean what I can from them. The machines are pretty simple, but when it comes to a pump problem or a motor problem, I'm kinda lost. 

The machines, though, DO get abused. There's no avoiding it.

That's all I got for now...
you guys keep talking, I'll keep reading  (thanks)


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## left4bread

Instead of creating a new topic, I'm just gonna bump this one.

There's a new kid in town in my parts, called swisher.

Anyone dealt with these guys?

They're cheaper than [email protected] as far as dish detergents/rinses are concerned.

Looks like they're heavy in the Eastern states. Looks like they're buying out smaller companies on the West coast.

Not sure what to think of it. Broadliner rep seems to think they're on the up & up. If he knew different, he'd say so.

The place I'm working at was using Sysc0's Keyst0ne line, which I'm told is [email protected]'s soap plus an inflation.

Their (swisher) rep came in (on a Saturday) to check levels at my request.

No lab coat. Straight shooter. Tagged my warewasher with stickers /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Any new thoughts? Foodpump?


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## dishman

It's not cheaper to buy a machine, especially a high temp machine. Additionally, the assertion that they use only a bit more power is way off. There is so much more information needed to be able to offer any advice on this.



foodpump said:


> No one's replied untiil now, I guess
> 
> Eco-lab is going to make money one way or the other.
> 
> It is cheaper to outright purchase a machine and get the detergent through your local purveyor. Intial cost for doing so is high, but average it out over the next 10 years and it is waaay cheaper.
> 
> Unless you're running a hospital or senior's home, you don't need the eco-lab stuff. You can get the soap through your purveyor, hand soap at Costco, specialized chemicals at food equipment dealers or janitorial suppliers, and usually the prices are a substantially cheaper then through Eco-lab. Take a look at other prices.
> 
> Remember, with a high-temp dishwaher your sanitizng is achieved with high temperatures, not chemicals.
> 
> Low-temp machines use much more "stuff", especially sanitizer (which high temps don't) than high-temp machines. True, high temp machines use a bit more power, but they do the job much, much better--especially on glassware.
> 
> Shop around and see who has machines for sale, what is the price, how much power and water do they consume per load, cost, and warranty.
> 
> Hope this helps


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## dishman

Okay, I know this is an old tired thread, but I worked for Auto-Chlor for over a decade. I held every position from making chemicals, servicing dishwashing equipment, installations, sales, and eventually regional manager. There is so much to know before you can compare "deals" and, frankly, most operators have no idea what they have going on in the dish pit. Want advice, just ask.

Basic truths-

Ecolab is the most expensive on average.

Both Auto-Chlor and Ecolab service reps have quotas and are paid commissions.

The real money is made on the cleaning products (degreaser, floor cleaner, presoak, pot sink soap, 3 comp sanitizer (quat), grill cleaner, etc. not the dish machine.

You will not save money buying a machine unless you do not wash a lot of dishes.

The average dish machine that is leased from Auto-Chlor is run 2300 times each 4 weeks.

The break even point for buying vs leasing is +-2000 washes per month.

You can't just buy cheap chemicals from smart and final and hook them up. The machine is calibrated for whatever vendors product is providing your service. The products are not similar in concentrations. Please understand I am not saying you can't save money buying cheaper product. You just need to have the machine adjusted to accommodate the more diluted product.

I have rarely surveyed a restaurant that owned their own dishwasher and found the dish machine to be in good repair. This is especially true for high temperature machines and conveyors.

With Auto-Chlor, you can negotiate pricing on every aspect of your bill with the Branch Manager. Just call the branch and ask to make an appointment. You will get something. As a manager, i would agree to big discounts to keep the customer long term and keep them happy. This was applicable to "good accounts". If you lease the machine, buy nothing else, and are a minimum biller you will not get much because there isn't a lot of margin in the smaller accounts.


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## foodpump

Left4bread,

No, I haven't heard of Swisher.

This is what I like to do:

-Buy my own hi temp washer, get the soap guys to calibrate it and pass inspection, and then buy my soap and rinse aid (the exact same stuff as what the soap guys are selling--same label, codes, and dates) from my broadliner or restauarant supply store.

-Here's the  hard part: Train my staff.  Train the servers to properly bus a table and to properly load the dishes at the dish pit.  Train teh dishwasher to proerly scrape plates clean, remove lipstick from glassware, and how to deal with crud, train him to observe the tank water, an if neccesary (only when he hasn't scraped his plates clean) to change the tank water mid-shift. Observe the critical temps and detergent levels, and--most importantly  to drain and wipe out the tank and filters end of the day.

So, for me a dishwasher is very important.  Most of them only last a few months--then I invariably make then salad guys or they move on, but I  invest quite a bit of time in them.  This, I consider part of being a Chef

Hi temp machines can cost anywhere from 5-10 grand, all depending on configerations.  Dish tabling is extra.

Someone has to pay this cost, (and it's always the customer) and I prefer to pay it up front.  My choice.  But then, I own my own business as well. 

I tell my dishwashers that the machine is actually very low tech.  "You've all run through a garden sprinkler as a kid, right?.  That's what this box is.  The big sprinkler flings tank water on the dishes for 60 seconds.  The little sprinkler sprinkles fresh, hot water on the dishes for 30 seconds to sanitize them.  That's it.  No magic.  If the dishes go in dirty, they come out dirty, but sanitized dirty."

I also like to be in charge  of my business, I decide what soaps and chemicals are being used, when, and how,  I decide how much to buy and what prices I will pay for it.  And I don't like "tricks" like dedicated hand soap dispensers that will only take a certain type of  disposable soap bladder that can only be purchased at one place at a price I have no control over, or paper towel dispensors, or customer bathroom equipment witht he same "trick" attached to it..

That being said, when working for others, who have contracts with the big boys like E.L or A.C., I have no say, but I see the invoices.  Soap and chemicals don't go on to my foodcost, so I'm safe.  But I am aware of what it costs. 

Someone has to pay for the machine.  You decide for a quick, sharp  pull on the band-aid, or a long, slow, complicated  bleed.


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## deserteagle357

High Temp vs Low Temp. High temp is just as good at sanitizing as low temp machines. Better in a higher volume situation such as conveyor machines. In a smaller environment I would go Low Temp every time. Here's why, think of the biggest party your restaurant has ever seen and yor booster heater craps out. It's going to take alot longer to fix the booster whether it's a fuse or an element than it is to replace a squeeze tube to pump sanitizer on a low temp machine. Yes the low temp machines do have a third chemical but if everything is adjusted correctly it should only cost 3 - 5 cents per rack for all three chemicals vs dumping all of the water (10 -12 gallons) in a high temp every 2 - 3 hrs of operation and then using more detergent to get your levels back up in your first two cycles.

Buy vs Lease. In the long run buying is less expensive until two days after the warranty is up you have to spend $600.00 for a new pump motor. The lease may cost a little more but you have the peace of mind that whatever breaks there's no service charge, no travel charge and no parts charge and you usually get really good service because these days the service team really wants to keep your business. Don't buy the cheap chemicals, you'll have to use more product to get the same results which causes the issue of why am I using so much product or why am I getting poor results. Use the better quality chemicals from your major food companies like Sysco or US Foods and it's just one stop shopping.

I hope this helped


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## deserteagle357

Do you really want the bathroom people taking care of your dish machine or would you want the dish machine pros helping you take care of your bathroom?


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## foodpump

Had my share of low temps, never again.

Don't really care which machine sanitizes better, whatever the health inspector Ok's is fine.  But a high temp sanitizes by heat, dishes come out hot, and they dry pretty darn quick.  Dishes come out lukewarm out of a low temp and take forever to dry completly.  This drives me nuts.


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## dishmacchemical

Ok here's the skinny...  When you rent from ecolab and Achlor you're getting 90% of the time a refurb machine, it may look new but its not unless you ask for a new machine.  That refurb has been refurbed before most likely.  They get 100% of their money for that machine from the customer in 18 months on rental fees, and  chemical sales.  The only difference in chemicals is the concentration, yes there are different formulations but that's splitting hairs.  The question is what is the final result. 1) Are my dishes clean 2) Is the rinse shedding water off my silverware and glassware 3) Is the sanitizer satisfying the health department? 4) Is it cost effective.

All you pay for with Eco is the concentration, and Oh, those repairs are not free at all.  eco's $80.00 bucket of detergent cost them $5.00 to make so you can do the math. 

Buy a used or refurb machine. get the manuals on line and find a parts supplier on line.  Most machines will go thru a motor, drain solenoid, pump motor, pump seal, and chemical squeeze tubes, at some point, all are relatively easy to replace, with very basic tools, and are very affordable on the parts if you buy on line or direct form the machines manufacture.

Good luck


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## chefedb

Realize that the chemicals and soaps you are buying from ALL of them are extremely HI MARKUP items.

     All the salesman tend to overstock you, so you order it ,don't let them go in your storage room and do it on there own  .

  To me all the contraptions they use to dispense the stuff is all ( Rube Goldberg)  older guys her should remember him.. 

       The dispensers are set by the techs to put in more then actually needed.

I like Hot Water Machines because the dishes dry at room temp and I think they do better job of cleaning .


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## dymondgeezer

Ok, this from an ex-chef / restaurant manager (25 years) who now works for EL.

High Temp Vs Low Temp.

The only reason to pick hi-temp over low is dependant upon what kind of wares you wash. Real silver, metalic gold embelishments on plates,etc require hi temp because the chlorine sanitizer will damage the metals.

The common mistake people make with low temp machines is running them at 120 degrees (standard hot water heater temperature for hand washing)

If you get a water heater and set it at 140-160 degrees with chemical sanitizer you will get great results.

The energy difference and equipment cost is quite significant. The machine itself is way more complex and has higher amperage & voltage rated parts.

A high temp machine has to wash at 160 and rinse at 180 minimum which takes a lot of energy.

Even buying chlorine sanitizer and running at 140-160 temps represents a lower cost per rack by far.

Hospitals & nursing homes typically run hi temp because they are more reliable, and the risk of chlorine mis-handling is reduced.

Lease Vs Buy

Most chains lease dishmachines, why? The operators are generally the most abusive, least motivated people on the planet and they abuse the machines. The lease agreement includes service, parts & labor.

The managers could care less (unless it breaks down), a bad mix.

The volume is so high that the last thing the managers have time for is dish room drama, including supervision & training.

Most schools and private restaurants own their machines, why? The operators are more closely supervised, the owner is involved in the dish room, possibly the owner has time and desire to make repairs himself to save a few dollars.

EL Vs AC

Well, most chains use EL. The training, 'available to the customer' resources and nationwide program delivery are big factors, but it really depends on the rep.

Costs

While I agree that soap is soap, you have to consider some facts.

A bottle of liquid detergent, hand poured will end up costing you more than a metered, dilution controlled concentrate. Do the math. HOWEVER if the monkeys hand pour the concentrates then you are getting killed. End Use Cost is pennies per gallon of solution if used correctly.

Service

Who else is going to come out at 8pm Friday to get your machine back up? Its a wierd reality that the dish machine always fails on the busiest night. I have changed 99.9% of major components on the weekends. Last pump motor was a Saturday night at a beach country club on 4th of July, before that a Denny's during Sunday breakfast, etc.

RPM (Routine Preventative Maintenance) is crucial to preventing break downs. A humming contactor, grinding pump motor or damaged heater element can be changed out prior to catastrophic failure!

Training & Support

Your Rep should be available to train your staff on regular procedures at regular intervals, minimum 2x a year.

The chemical vendor should supply wall charts, videos, stickers, labels etc at N/C to help you with Health Dept compliance and staff knowledge.

Value

The argument becomes what is the best VALUE. Yes, you can go to Sams Club, or Restaurant Depot and buy a bucket of soap, but that's all you get. Inside our soap is all the equipment, repairs, training, point-of-use materials etc.

There is value in picking up the phone and having a technician there to resolve your issue.

Do you have time to fix a broken hand soap dispenser? 

Can you fix a wash pump motor? Do you stock the parts?

If you could pay 50c a gallon more for gas and get unlimited, free service, is that a value to you?

BTW, EL act as first responders to customer owned machines, and can often make minor repairs on the spot.

Hobart charges a trip fee, labor by the hour, swap parts and leave mentality and the bill is always several hundred dollars.

I have stayed and washed dishes by hand on a Saturday night, driven to the next city to get Hobart parts for a customer owned machine, spent hours figuring out a problem that Hobart couldn't fix, helped new owners navigate the Health Dept requirements (real world!) and I have an owners perspective on the service I provide.  

The only bill my customers ever get from me is the chemicals they buy, and for the record I make 6% commision and buy my own gas. (That's $6 for every $100 you spend.) and nothing from the lease. (That goes to the company that provides the vehicle, parts and support)

Hope this helps, especially as an ex-professional chef & current EL guy!!


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## dymondgeezer

P.S. I resent the allegation that 'all chemical guys screw the customer' by turning up the dispensers. I pride myself in making sure that the correct dilutions are set up for every dispenser. Yes there are dirt-bags out there but not all of us screw you!

Long term customer retention is better than short term profits. (I have only lost 1 customer in past 12 months and thats a failing restaurant that thinks the $30 a month savings is going to save his business.)

MY NAME is my reputation, not the company I work for.


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## robo

standard in the business is it cost you 50 cents to run each rack, that price includes labor , chemical, heat, utilities, etc


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## robo

you have to remember ecolab lease the machines, but parts and labor are free. A conveyor wash pump motor replaced for free by ecolab, can cost up to $1,000 to replace if you own your own machine. leases varies from $80. a month for single door machine, to $200.00  m.onth for conveyors


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## the soap man

I agree with the Dish Doctor. Enough Said!

Thanks,

The Soap Man


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## chef crosier

left4bread said:


> Our lease is up on our A-clr one rack dish-washer. We've been renting it for almost 10 years. We've been using eco product in our other dish-washer and our two glass-washers, though, and were strongly considering buying a Jackson machine to replace the A-clr machine. I always thought that it just went without saying; if you can't afford to buy a machine, then you rent one.
> 
> But now after talking with eco reps and A-clr reps (who just contradict each other) I'm not sure which way to go...
> 
> Any thoughts?


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## robo

i worked for Ecolab,  jackson machines are junk, spend the xtra money and buy Hobart or CMA.


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## aangela

Did you made a decision, I am in the same position right now and would like advise...any experience with auto chlor??


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## chefvance

I, too am an ex Executive Chef with 32 years experience.  I am now an A.E. for Auto-Chlor in DC.  I saw the light after about 20 years as far as getting bad service and high prices from the Eco Lab people that I dealt with. Once I used AC that was all I ever used again and that is why I went to work for them.   I agree that there are good and bad everywhere from all companies.  My best friends were Sysco salesman and while they liked the income gained from selling chemicals they despised having to deal with repercussions from unhappy customers when performance issues cropped up. 

Eco Lab is an 18 million dollar a year traded company that has many shareholders that must see a profit.  Their machines are merely dispensers for their liquid gold, the chems.  They do a great job of taking care of their larger customers but the little guys don't see too much of that.  All companies must make a profit, it's just "how much" is the difference. 

I make a killing now by converting people over to AC from Eco Lab because I know how some of them operate and if I get a chance to see their invoices it's an easy sell.  I am a chef/owner's dream because I am concerned about the big picture, Serv Safe Certified, and am more like a consultant for my clients.  I treat them fairly and follow up with all of them and continue to go to all of my accounts, as they are my partners, for as long as they are AC customers.


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## chefvance

I was a chef for over 30 years and now an AE for Auto-Chlor in northern VA/DC.  I make a killing converting Eco Lab clients over to us because I know how they operate.  Their machines are merely dispensers for their "liquid gold".  They use other companies  machines and many times contract out the labor.  Their business is chemicals.  AC is the only company who makes their own patented low-temp machines, their own chems, and their own techs to service them.  This is an easy sell for me when I go up against EL.


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## foodpump

I hate low temps for a number of reasons.

1) one more chemical to buy, which also has a finite shelf life. Plus the sanitzer is more corrosive than regular detergent or rinse aid, so the lines have to be changed more frequently as well as the dispensor units

2) Plates come out p___ warm, not hot. This means they take much longer to dry, which translates in kitchen language to stacks of cold, wet plates and puddles of water.

3) Glassware doesn't come out all so clean. Grease, fingerprints, and especially lipstick needs hot water to get removed, and the low temp can't deliver on this. Who cares if the wash cyle is 140 or 180 seconds instead of the standard 120? It still won't come out clean if the water ain't hot enough.

Every dishwasher I've trained starts off with two questions: "You watched the first Harry Potter movie, right? Remember the scene where the uncle sticks his fat face in the camera and says "there's no such thing as magic? And : As a kid, I trust you've jumped through a garden sprinkler on a hot day? It might have got you wet, but it probably didn't get you clean. This dishwasher is no different, it just flings water around in the hopes of getting stuff clean. If it isn't more or less clean before it goes in, it sure as (deleted) won't be clean when you take it out. "

This is always followed by instructions on how to scrape plates clean, how to use cardboard box tops to wipe out grease and crud out of pans and pots before washing, how you can't wash dishes if your tank water is filthy, how to look at both wash and rinse arms for blockages, how to monitor soap and rise aid, and how to rattle the racks in the machine before taking them out so you don't trail water all over the place.

_It ain't the machine or the soap that gets stuff clean, it's the operator. Only people who understand this concept will have clean dishes with a minimum amount of trouble and service calls._


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## shootoo

What do you guys know about a chemical called Freedom from Mt Hood? We use a floor cleaner/degreaser when we mop, and then we put the Freedom down after we squeegee and rinse. It sits overnight 

It's like $30/gallon though... Actually probably more


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## wallydur1

As someone who has sold machines of all sorts for 42 years and being in the chemical supplier field to restaurants the same amount of time I have quite a bit of insite into your questions.  Always, if possible use a high temperature machine and run it low tem. (using sanitizer instead of 180 degree water to sanitize.  Low temp single door macines use up to 3 gallons of water each rack.  That means you have to heat the water thru your heater for 3 gallons, you pay for 3 gallons of water, you pay for 3 gallons of sewage, you have to use alot of water to rinse the dishes pretty much perfectly on the low temp machines.  Remember the more water in the was tank the more chemicals you will use for soap (rinse and sanitizer also if you are using a low temperature washer.  You use 1 1/2 minutes of electricity for each single door low temperature machine where with a high temp machine run low temp you use about a gallon or a bit more.  Are you starting to see the savings yet?  Jackson machines, never did I think they were good, either for costs or results or for how dependable they were.  I prefer ADA 180 machines run low temp, since they use very little water.  My favorite though is a Hobart 14 or 15.  They use 1.2 gallons of water each wash, therefore you heat only that much and since they have a bilt in heater with a tank of only 11 gallons think how much the savings on heat heating only 11 gallons vs. the 100 gallon hot water tank you have now or even larger that you have set high just to get hot water to the dishwasher.  Strange think is you don't get hot water to the dishwasher unless you are washing back to back to back racks (because water cools in pipes if they set).  Hobart machines last 30 years or so, you don't worry about changing them out often.  Also, owning (leases are very cheap these days)  means you can choose the supplier that offers the best chemical costs.  Buying thru a food company is bad as they mark their products up again after the supplier and usually don't buy the best chemicals.  They use chemicals they can sell cheap per case, but these are usually not the chemicals that last longer dollar per dollar.  Some food companies offer their low temperature washers at nc but I promise then their "using costs" will be high per rack.  Remember, they have the ability to set how much goes in each rack, you don't know what should go in, you can only guess to the real settings.  So much as to the costs and results and quality of dishwashers.  Your chemical ratio for money spent on chemicals  vs. total food and beverage sales should range as low as 5 tenths of 1% to perhaps 6 tenths or a bit more for about 8 products used in your restaurant.  These ratios are based on not waisting or pouring products and using common sense and having dispensors that portion control to regulate your costs.  Finally, I don't know you and you dont' know me but I am telling you true facts.  I work in the chemical sales area and most people want to know costs of a cs. or a bucket not knowing the concentration or how honest your settings are being made.  If you lease a DW you are tied into who ever leased it to you for a year, if you "lease to own" where you are making payments to buy the DW thru a leasing company the cost is only a bit higher and after 5 years you own and stop paying, if you have a service repair cost so what, it will be less than leasing a DW for a year.  Hope this has been helpful, did you stay with me to the end?

WD


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## arthur23

I´m currently using Ecolab, I started this service a few months ago, and I already want to get rid of them. they´re killing me with the chemical prices, cuz it´s required to get the chemicals from them. I´m looking for other options. A friend of mine is with Pure Force, she says it´s pretty affordable, but I´ve been trying to get a hold of them and nobody gets back to me... pretty bad costumer service. So, I´m looking for other alternatives.


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## mark98

Pure force is a division of Ecolab.


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## left4bread

Purchase a machine and buy your chemicals at Costco or Cash&Carry, if you're looking to eliminate the salesmen.

The salesmen come into play when your machine breaks during the middle of service on a Friday.

Even if you own the machine, if you are using their chemicals, they should come in and fix your machine on call.

If you don't have that service, then buy your chemicals at cash&carry or a big-box.

If you're handy with simple motors and simple plumbing, then do it yourself.

If your detergent supplier is treating you like dirt, then switch. Don't let them hold you in a contract.

Leave. Are they going to take you to court? Nope.

Unless you're behind in bills...

Oh, also, never sign a contract. Flat out refuse. They'll work with you.

Never sign a contract (that doesn't allow yourself an out).

So many post count:1 in this thread.

P.S. I've had good customer relations with both EL and A-Clor. It kinda depends on your region and their region mngr.

I think it's sad that they send ppl here to defend them with walls of text that no one reads. If you're going to do that, you should be clever about it.

You're not clever, guys. No one gets that defensive in retrospect. I've worked with former soap chemical salesmen. You're ridiculous.


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## tecky

Being a ware washing technician for many years, I find the discussion interesting about whether to buy or lease a dish machine. I have worked for Auto-Chlor Systems, Diversey, and currently with Ecolab. I have discovered that most restaurants prefer to lease the machine for the pure matter-of-fact reason that a dish machine is a high maintenance machine. Someone mentioned the moyer diebel carousel and let me say matter of fact it is a very intense high maintenance machine. I don't mind customer owned machines because if I decide to work on the machine I get paid commission on the parts I replace. I maintain leased machines at no maintenance. Ecolab is the bear in the room so if you decide to go with the 4 week program similiar to Auto-chlor - you can rest assured that Ecolab will be 10 to 20 percent less expensive. Their new program mimmicks auto-chlor almost to dotting the i. Unlike Auto-Chlor though- every customer is signed up at the same rate and price adjustments to the agreement are virtually non existant.

High temp or low temp? There is no doubt if you are a high end chef you will go with high temp. There is no discussion. It gives you the cleanest wares you can get and the lowest labor costs in the dish pit. Most single rack upright dish machines comes with a built in boostert heater that has either a 40 degree or 70 degree rise in incoming water. I heard mention turning your water heater up to 160 or 170 degrees to wash on a low temp machine. Good luck with your health inspector on that.

Most restaurants decide to go low temp first and foremost for the initial start up cost--120 volt power versus 208 and no hood. Low temps give satisfactory results and are easier to trouble shoot and to maintain. Keep in mind one factor when low versus high temp. You use less detergent on a high temp because the heat does most of the cleaning and less drying space because it dries faster.

On pricing please understand that if you go through someone like Sysco or UsFoods you will normally pay little less than $100.00 for a leased low temp machine per month and will pay about 4.5 to 5.5 cents per wash. Most low temp machines have a meter that shows the washes and you can do your own math. Two thousand washes would be about $200.00 per month for machine and chemicals plus tax.. Auto-Chlor is around $180.00 every 4 weeks and you are charged 8 cents for every wash over a thousand. Going through a distributor you are billed 12 times a year versus 13 times a year and usually there is no hidden enviromental charge added on. Many distributors do not hold you to an agreement because they do not want to lose your food business either now or in the future.

Have a nice day all.


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## chefonfire

Ecolab chemicals are more than twice what I am paying now. I did a lease to own on my machine. I own my machine now by about 5 years. I buy whatever chems I want with no penalties. 
If Ecolab knocks on your door with a contract, read every damn line and don't sign until you understand it. Watch for minimum usage clauses, bundling of cleaning purchases, etc.

I am a chef/owner, not a fan of ecolab


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## CDJ

I've been in the industry for 20 years plus years and enjoy it very much. Restaurant owners and the service industry people work very hard and know how to have fun. 

People have asked me many times, should I buy my own dishwasher. The bottom line is even if you own your machine you gotta buy chemicals to run through it to get clean dishes. I just don't see the value in owning that piece of equipment. Tell me where are you saving money ?


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## foodpump

Umm... Good question.

Mnfctr. "X" makes a good quality dishwasher, dependable. It costs, say $5,000. That's the price, same price if you buy one or one hundred, mnfctr "X" has gotta charge five grand no matter what.

So if you, an indie restauranteurs have to cough up 5 g's, so does the chemical distributer, right? If the chemical distributer leases out the machine to you, not only does he have to make a buck on the leasing, he also has to make a buck on the chemicals, right?

If you buy the machine, you by-pass the leasing mark up which saves you money, but also frees you from a contract that makes you buy the chemicals. You can buy the chemicals from any broadliner, supplier, or restaurant supplier you choose you choose to choose, which almost always is cheaper than the chemical supplier.

I trust this answers your question?


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## CDJ

I still don't see the value in owning a dishwasher.... By pass the cost of the lease. You're not by passing anything. 

If you lease a dishwasher for $100 a month for 5 years that's $6000. I would rather pay $100 a month and have a machine that's maintained properly than worry about a piece of equipment that's constantly abused by employees in an area of my business with the most turnover.


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## foodpump

Here's why you shouldn't lease a dishwasher.

A dishwasher by itself, just standing in a corner, is about as useful as an ashtray on a Harley. 

Whatchyaneed is :
A) soiled table
B) a pre rinse gun and sink with debris strainer
c) landing table
D) storage shelves for racks
E) racks
But most importantly you need
-hot water heater
-plumbing
-grease trap
-electric service

So you see, a dishwasher by itself is like leasing a car engine. You don't need just the engine, you need the transmission, the brakes, and the steering wheel.

None of the above items are leased, they are costs, and the rate of those costs are dictated by the lending institution you chose, which are always lower than leasing pieces of equipment.

So why lease a dishwasher if you need all that other stuff to make it work, which can't be leased?

A dishwasher--IF PROPERLY MAINTAINED, should give you years of no trouble. Granted, a yearly inspection is not only prudent, but smart, and this is almost always cheaper than a rush service call at 9:45 pm.

The onus of maintaining kitchen equipment falls on the chef.
The onus of training people to use a dishwasher falls on the chef.
The onus of buying chemicals is on the chef.

A good chef will fire a cook for abusing a stove or fridge, and a good chef will fire an employee for abusing a dishwasher.

If the chef can't do that, then the owner isn't getting his/her money's worth, and is paying much higher costs to have a 3rd party ( the chemical co.) do a portion of the chef's job, at a much higher cost.
That, and the fact that the chemical co. almost always forces the owner to buy bathroom supplies and f.o.h. supplies at much higher costs that what most broadliners or janitorial suppliers charge.

So, you see CDJ, this is my view of dishwashers from over 35 years in the industry. Many of those years were spent in my own businesses, many working for others. 
But when I get forced to buy handsoap from a chemical co. at twice the normal cost for the simple fact that the chemical co. took out all my soap dispensers and replaced them with their own without my knowledge or consent, or tinkered with concentration rates on the chemicals and the dispensing meters on my machine, then I don't have a very cheery disposition towards chemical co.'s


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