# The Pie's The Limit



## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

*The pie's the limit *
By Jane Miller 
Pittsburg Post Gazette

It was BYOP -- bring your own (rolling) pin -- at Crate recently, when pastry chef Andrea Carros Schrenk taught two classes on how to make a good piecrust.

Piecrusts present a predicament for many. "This class is a hands-on favorite" and is offered a couple of times a year, said Linda Wernikoff, owner of the specialty kitchen store and cooking school in Scott.

"I always watched my mom make pies, but I never learned. It's about time I did," said Elaine Parente of Upper St. Clair.

"I grew up with really great pies," said Schrenk, 44, who has been a chef for 26 years and an instructor for 15. She lives in Bellevue with her husband and three sons. She is on sabbatical from Pennsylvania Culinary this semester, because she has been invited to prepare pies and other pastries for the VIPs at the Winter Olympics.

"Pies are truly an American food," said the chef, who trained in French restaurants in Paris at a time when it was rare to find a woman in a professional kitchen.

"You can't go anywhere else and find pies the way we make them. It's a part of our American heritage."

As the role of women has changed, so have pies. Today, more people buy frozen pies or purchase pies from supermarket in-store bakeries. In fact, how to make a good piecrust is one of the top three questions people ask Schrenk when they find out she is a chef. (The other two: how to keep a cheesecake from cracking -- see Page E-14 -- and how she stays so thin. "They work us hard in this industry," is her standard reply to the latter.)

"For many of my younger students, who grew up on frozen pie, the best crust they've ever eaten is the one they just made. I say, 'Look at what you've been missing for all these years,'" she said.

Creating a good piecrust requires the right tools. "You should use whatever rolling pin you feel comfortable with," she said, but added that her preference is a heavier, longer wooden pin. "Let the rolling pin do the work for you."

A metal scraper will make cleanup a snap, and the best pan for pies is a metal one. Surprisingly, she likes disposable pans. "The thin tin is a great conductor of heat," she said.

Piecrusts also need the right ingredients. Pastry flour is a must for her, because it has a lower protein content than all-purpose or bread flour. That makes the formula stick together better, without much handling.

"It's only 1 to 2 percent difference, but makes a big difference," she said.

Pastry flour is difficult to find here, unlike the big pie-eating Southern states. Locally, it can be purchased through the King Arthur catalog; the East End Food Co-Op, Point Breeze; or kitchen specialty stores. Crate sells Schrenk's favorite commercial flour from ConAgra, which is apportioned for consumer use at $1.99 for 3 pounds.

Schrenk shared theory on the concepts behind a flaky crust. Ice water helps set the fat (shortening). A good formula, or dough, has a "marbling" of shortening that will release steam and create the flakiness from baking. That's why it is important to mix the flour, shortening and water gently, she said.

*How to bake a one-crust pie*

Here are instructions from pastry teacher Andrea Carros Schrenk:

1. After placing rolled dough in pie pan, dock (perforate with a fork so steam can escape) the dough all over.

2. Refrigerate the dough-filled pan, or freeze it, for 5 minutes to firm the dough.

3. Place second pie pan on top and invert. Weigh down slightly with light tray, so that steam does not push off the top pan.

4. Bake at 425 degrees until golden, approximately 10 to 15 minutes.

5. Flip over, and carefully remove the tin. Place back in a reduced 350-degree oven for a few minutes until slightly golden. Cool before filling.

Quality filling ingredients also make a difference. She prefers Granny Smith apples for apple pies. Schrenk's favorite chocolate is Callebaut's Belgian chocolate for cream pie, and she prefers Vietnamese cinnamon, which had been restricted in trade agreements for 25 years, but no longer.

From there, piecrusts are in the baker's hands. Schrenk translated "handling the dough gently" into "it's like tossing a salad with your fingers. Pieces of shortening should be between the size of marbles and peas.

"If it's all pea-sized, it's gone too far," she added, noting the crust would be tougher.

Participants made half-portion recipes -- enough for one crust each of the basic dough -- using all shortening, or its variation, with part butter, which is more difficult to roll out, "but, oh, the taste!" said Schrenk. She noted that butter-flavored Crisco could be used, but it's not a natural flavoring.

She gave word pictures for the tasks. Lightly flouring the rolling surface became: "Spread the flour like you're feeding the chickens."

The class paired up with partners to make a two-crust apple pie, using dough the teacher had made before the class. (Each person also had one crust to take home to practice rolling.)

"Don't wait until it's the size of Texas before you realize you're in trouble," she said. "You always have to move the dough. If it's not moving, it's sticking."

Most people either attack the dough or are afraid of it. It's important always to keep a circle shape as its being rolled out. Use a pastry brush to brush off any extra flour when placed into the pan.

But if a crust isn't perfect, scraps can be pressed into the bottom edges after the pie is filled (a heaping portion), and the second crust placed on and rolled under.

To make a one-crust pie, Schrenk puts the shell in the pie tin, and trims it flush with the edge -- you never want any crust hanging over the edge for any pie tin. Then she places another pie tin on top of the crust and flips both tins (with crust in the middle) upside down. Then, you bake it in the oven upside down, and it's guaranteed not to shrink from the sides of the pan.

Linda Underwood of Bethel Park pressed her index finger forward and back between the "pinchers" of her left hand to flute the piecrust's edges before placing in the oven. "I never could get this part, but now it's easy," she said.

The finishing touches were an "asterisk" on each piece, which "in the folklore history of pies signifies that this is an apple," and a distinguishing mark to determine the pie maker.

While the pies baked, Schrenk demonstrated how to make a perfect cream filling. "Follow each step exactly as it is written in the directions."

Fifty minutes later, the class enjoyed the fruit (and cream) pies. "People think it's harder than it is," said Schrenk, surrounded by the leftovers of eight beautiful pies.

"I just can't believe we made this," said Underwood, between bites.

*Basic Pie Dough*
It is best to weigh the ingredients for these recipes. This crust is made in a mixer, or you can use a pastry blender.

1 pound or 4 cups pastry flour
1 tablespoon sugar
1 teaspoon salt
10 1/2 ounces or 1 1/2 cups shortening (Andrea Carros Schrenk uses Crisco)
5 ounces ice cold water ( 1/2 cup plus 1 tablespoon and 1 1/2 teaspoons)

Combine all dry ingredients in a bowl or mixer with a paddle attachment.

Mix 30 seconds to incorporate all ingredients, or separate lumps with fingers. (It is not necessary to sift.)

Add the fat (shortening) in golfball-size pieces. (If using a mixer, do not add fat with mixer running.)

Continue to mix or "cut" fat until it has broken down to between the size of a marble and a pea. Watch carefully. Do not allow the fat to incorporate past a pea size as the mixture will turn into a paste (and the dough won't be flaky).

Make a well at the bottom of the bowl and pour the ice water directly into the well.

Mix lightly or on low speed until the ingredients just form a dough. (By hand it's a "tossing a salad" motion and then pressing it together.)

Remove from the bowl and gently press into a cylinder, which may be rolled in a bit of all-purpose or bread flour to resist sticking on the table.

Wrap in plastic wrap and date. Refrigerate dough for 4 to 8 hours so that it "relaxes" for ease in rolling. Allow the dough to sit at room temperature approximately 1/2 hour before rolling. Pie dough may be frozen for up to a month but refrigerated only a few days for best results.

How much dough for the pan? The basic professional formula for uniformity of crust is 1 ounce per inch for the bottom crust and 1 additional ounce per inch for any top crust. Example: a standard 9-inch pan would need 9 ounces of dough for the bottom and 10 ounces of dough for the top.

This recipe makes enough for 3 crusts, or 1 double and 1 single pie.

For shortening and butter dough: Substitute 5 ounces unsalted butter and 3/4 cup shortening.

*Fresh Apple Pie Filling*

4 Granny Smith apples, peeled and cut into cubes (about 6 cups)
6 ounces sugar (1 cup minus 1 tablespoon)
1 ounce or 1/4 cup all-purpose flour
1 tablespoon instant tapioca (optional)
1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg
Pinch each of allspice and salt
1 ounce or 2 tablespoons unsalted 
butter, cut into small pieces

Toss all ingredients together. Allow to sit in refrigerator until juice begins to form. Place in unbaked crust. Add top crust. Fold edges under and press edges with fingers to seal. Make an "X" in center with knife, cutting through bottom crust. Embellish top as desired. Bake at 425 degrees until golden (about 15 to 20 minutes), then lower temperature to 375 degrees and bake until filling bubbles in middle (about 20 to 30 minutes).

Makes one 9-inch pie.

*Chocolate Cream Pie*

1 pint whole milk
3 ounces or 1/2 cup minus 1 tablespoon sugar
3 ounces or 1/2 cup minus 1 tablespoon sugar
1 1/4 ounces or 5 tablespoons cornstarch
1 whole egg
3 egg yolks
2 ounces or 4 tablespoons unsalted butter, cut into small pieces
3 ounces or 1/2 cup finely chopped bittersweet chocolate

Place milk and first addition of sugar in a heavy stainless-steel sauce pan. (Do not turn on the heat.)

Combine the whole egg and yolks in a bowl. Sift the second addition of sugar and cornstarch, mix together until smooth with a wire whip.

Turn the heat on high under the milk and sugar.

When the milk boils, remove from heat and slowly ladle 8 ounces of boiled milk into the egg mixture, with a slight, drizzling motion, whipping all the while.

Add egg mixture back into the pot with the milk. Over a high heat, whip constantly until mixture boils again. (There will be no foam. It is very important that mixture boils to activate the cornstarch.)

Remove from heat and add the chocolate and butter. Pour into a prebaked pie shell, and cover the top directly with plastic wrap.

Refrigerate overnight or several hours before finishing with 1 1/2 cups sweetened whipped cream.

*Variations: *

Coconut cream: Eliminate the chocolate. Add 2 teaspoons pure vanilla extract with the butter, and fold in 2 ounces or 1 cup toasted coconut.

Banana cream: Eliminate the chocolate. Add 2 teaspoons pure vanilla extract with the butter. Slice 2 bananas, soak in small amount of pineapple juice, drain, and layer with pastry cream. Make sure that the bananas are totally covered with pastry cream.


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

Isa,
Please keep posting these articles (I've just read the balsamic vinegar one). They are such a pleasure to read


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I used to make this for a living once. I think I am good :blush: 

I can show you some tricks when I come to Canada Isa.


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

You were a pastry chef Athenaeus? What job haven't you done? Atually don't tell me, i think I can guess


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

A Chef?????? Ah non!!! 
Just a pastry producer but Rachel I was doing that in England I mostly) I don't know if it counts


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I love pie, any kind, but especially double crust fruit pies.
I love it almost as much as popcorn.
I love eating it, smelling it, baking it, rolling out dough and on and on.

I once heard a cowboy poet refer to pie as being wholesome love, like Mom.
"Not like cake, cake is lust."

Too bad there isn't such a thing as a Wedding Pie, I would have had one of those.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Says who?? It may not be traditional, but who cares?  We had pie for our wedding- and then a small cake for the ol' feed the cake to the wedding partner bit.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

The things we learn... What else have you not told Athenaeus?


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

How many times I have been arrested maybe...


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## risa (May 11, 2001)

Didn't Melina proudly say something about her sister attending the Cordon Bleu or some other famous cooking school in Paris?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

How many times is not as interesting as the WHY!! Care to share, Athenaeus?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

back to original post, pastry flour is a blend of bread and cake flour. No need to buy special. Just thought I'd throw that in.


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

In what proportion , Panini?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

most prepared and bagged is 60cake-40bread. We blend 50-50 for most formulas that call for it .


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I don't believe that about pastry flour. I think it's a separate thing altogether, and not just a blend of cake and bread flour. You can fake a softer flour by blending your own, but it's not the same.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

believe what you want. Everybody here is a book expert anyway. I've been doing this for a few months, so what the **** do I know. All of you, Go read some more books! Until you understand that the people who write books are not gods. 
Rachel,
I'm telling you that if you visit 80% of the real bakeries in the US you will find them using a blend of flour for their pastry flour. It is not cost efficient to stock pastry flour. I'm sure someone will give you all the tecnical reports on the subject but what I'm telling you is the real world.


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## john (Jan 21, 2002)

Panini: You are incorrect about your "home" version of pastry flour. Pastry flour has properties intermediate between those of all-purpose and cake flours. It is milled from soft wheat for pastry-making, but can be used for cookies, cakes, crackers, etc . And it differs from hard wheat flour in that it has a finer texture and lighter consistency. Protein varies from 8 to 9 percent. 

Your mixture may suit your baking tastes, but you'll have much better results using pure pastry flour. John


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Not cost effective at 12 bucks for 50 lbs? 
That's cheaper than potting soil. Dirt, in other words.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Yes, let me concur, I'm an idiot. I love to be classified as a HOME baker. Like I said, what the **** do I know?
I can't believe I have been making inferior products all this time. There is no blending in the making of pastry flour? Hum I learn something everyday. But I'm sure some of the experts will post something in print. Oh, I'm in the south, I wonder if that has anything to do with flours? Hum? Could the wheats be harder in the North, Chicago, MA.
Don't post back to me, I've had it. bye 
I'm going to have to call all myfriends and tell just how stupid they are too.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

the key word being stocking not cost. Thank you for belittleing me some more. The idiot


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## snakelady1 (Mar 7, 2001)

Having just opened a bakery a few months ago I have been using AP flour for my pies.... no one in twenty miles is even making their own pies so mine are wonderful I have a beautiful flaky crust and people are raving over my pies...... panini I value your input and as I have both cake and bread flour in my kitchen I am going to give it a try..... on a more personal note you do seem to be very angry lately or maybe its just the way you want to come across If you need to get something off your chest I am a great listener feel free to email me or I will just keep my big fat nose out of your business either way thanks for the idea

HISSSSSSSS


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

No, there is nothing here to make me angry. I'm just old and crotchity. I ususally don't post on something I don't understand. I know for a fact that some of our flours down here are blended. Our local hard wheats here are very soft as mostly in the south. Ask all the snowbirds in Florida and they will all tell you"why can"t they make bread like NY" I'm not one for all the technical stuff you can fill your head with. I can feel, touch, and smell a flour to understand what it will do in a formula.
I'm all for furthering ones education on any subject, but to emerse yourself in print can be damaging. Most of the threads here are about something somebody read and another person read something to the contrary.
Most formulas for a certain item have a very common denominator. Some people have a feel for just what they can do to alter something, and some have to stick right to the exact formula. The later will usually not be able to tell you what went wrong with something or rework mistakes( a key to being a Chef)
Like I always say I'm no expert. but to call me a home baker is off too.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I thought you were heading for the hills, and that would have been too bad, because all the posts I've read indicate that you certainly know your way around the bakeshop. 
It seems like there were two things going on here, your assertion that 80% of bakeries make their own blended pastry flour, and that could be true, and your assertion that the stuff one buys in bags is blended bread and cake flour, and I don't think that's the case. 
I don't know who called you a home baker, but they obviously haven't read a lot of your posts. 
Just to set the record straight..I am an effete intellectual eastern liberal, 5 on the Enneagram, ISTJ Meyers Briggs.,.you figure it out...and I only buy a bag of Golden Shield once a season, and I only put it in cookies. I think if you have a deft touch, you can get away with all-purpose for a lot of things.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

See. there you go again. things in print, tests! Did you need those tests to figure the results?Guess how high I score on a personality test? pretty s--tty.Ask my co-workers who they would like to be in a fox hole or stranded on an island with?
John is probably right about the classification. But most places I've worked , there is usually a compaction problem in bakery storage, therefor to store pastry flour, something else has to go. Again, I'm in the south and I think this has a lot to do with it, our APF is green or crap and our hards are soft. The story of my life.
To set the record straight, I get frustrated with this site and quit it once or twice a month. Mostly because my fingers have great problems translating my thoughts. and , people quote from books to much 
what the he--do I know  If your using one bag a year I think the amount of added critters would change the properties. more protien?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Well, I've found that in order for me to be comfortable in my own skin in what I call my life, I had to have in-depth knowledge of what makes me tick. Finding out that I am an Observer, a collector of information, that emotionally I live in a cave, has helped me figure out who I am and where I'm going. It finally gave me an answer to all those flying dreams where I hover over everything and watch, why I live in a house crammed full of books, why I have a quick answer for everything. But I hope I also have enough humility to admit it when I don't know the answer to a question. As Mark Twain put it, "I'm gratified to be able to answer promptly. I don't know." Admitting what I don't know helps me learn.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well I find out every day I don't know something. I'm not quick to answer but to lash out. I've made it a point never to let someone rent space in my head. I speak my peace and usually move on. I usually can't remember what I had for b'fast. I really wish I had the time to to study myself.
bighat, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for those people who dive into print to better themselves. I'm probably just a little jealous. I will be the first to admit I'm wrong, really! it happened about 11 yrs. ago.
I admit I'm wrong about the flour thing but if you run out of pastry flour try my way.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Panini can one make cake flour by mixing other types of flour??


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Isa, not that I'm aware of. Our apf here is somewhat soft and I have mixed it with cake for things like frangipane. apf is pretty inconsistant here.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

sorry Isa, my computer hiccuped.Like I said our apf is not very good, most of our flours are spring harvest. Depending in which part of the country you are in will make a difference( I think). Up north most wheats are winter, from red wheat. The high glutens are much better and their bread flours are different from ours. Our bread flour runs 9-10% where as up north they are probably 11-12%. Our APF are 8-9% and theirs are probably 9-11%.
Hard winter wheats are supposed to be the best, but you have to work with what you have.If your recipe calls for cake flour than I would try to find it.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hope you don't mind my adding my two cents also. I understand the basics of gluten but I sort of feel AT TIMES it's like splitting hairs (except when your making bread, then it's very important).

I'm sure you'll all blast me (and the line is blurred because we can't compare apples to apples here, since gluten does varie in regions), but....I mix ap with cake flour to make my pastry flour. BUT actually I don't really think it's critical to have pastry flour on hand, I never have for space reasons. PLUS I really don't believe when making pastries you have to get as intense into your gluten as you do with breads (so long as you keep away from high gluten). I really believe a light hand, good method and good quality ingredients has a far bigger impact on taste then the differences between the lower gluten flours.


The recent book called The Bakers Dozen (I think) confirms my thoughts about flours in cake. They studied cake flour vs ap flour in cakes and in general agreed that they prefered the flavor from the ap cake more often (they said they were suprised by this themselfs). This book also has a section on making pie crusts and I believe they also address the flours and gulten choices for that. I haven't looked into that in depth but I really respect the people who compiled this book and how they approached this as scienticly as possible.

P.S. I love you Panini....I know you always have the very best intents. I get frustrated too sometimes, and I really stick my foot in my mouth. This writing thing is hard, people take things literally too much. I think you need to read between the lines and see the persons intent over long periods of time. You've always gone out of you way to be helpful and teach, I appreciate it ALOT!


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Couldn't we all just agree that some of us are right-brainers and others are left-brainers, and that makes the world more interesting?! Some of us are thinkers, and love the support they get from books, others are do-ers, and learn from doing, and observation, and way things feel.

Peace and love, y'all!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Marmalady,
I think that is exactly what makes the world go round. I'm in no way suggesting that one way is better than the other. Interesting conversation come with boths sides at the table, not telling one side they are wrong. Disagreement is vital for learning. Trust me, there is nothing here that would ever make me mad, a little frustrating maybe, but that is healthy.
This venue is great for me because I have found that I can get a little cross with people, something I have great problems in real life. Besides, when all is said and done, I'm right! 

I'm enjoying a week of with my wife. So without the daily grind I would be on guard here! I may have serious opinions about everything. Except Thurs, I will fly off to partake in a little poker at the casinos.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Hey panini, stop threatening to leave us...you know you never will!! 

Wendy, I am in agreement with you here too. There are very few people that would be able to detect a difference between ap and pastry in most baked goods. If I really need pastry flour, I mix ap and cake. No biggie. Quality has never suffered as a result of it.

Isa, I have heard some people say that if they need cake flour in a pinch, they mix ap flour with corn starch. Don't believe them! That's a case of what panini was saying. Some people read too much, without actually doing.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

:lol: :lol:

Panini could you suggest me some books to learn about the different types of flour in the States, please??  

Seriously, I will have big problem when I get there, I am taking my flour every other month from a mill (YES!!! YOU READ WELL) outside Athens...
Things are so complicated there...


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

You can always check out, but you can never leave.
I'm sorry I don't have to many reference books for flours here in the US. I'm pretty sure Kyle would be the one for that.
There must be some sort of flour site out there. RBA might have something. I'm sure the FDA will have something.
Get ready for a change though. A lot of our flours ard bleached, enriched, washed, dried, ironed and folded.
I'm old school, Amendola, people like that. I'm sure there is somebody writing about flours.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Yes, most of our flours are enriched. But you can avoid most of that other nasty stuff. To get an idea of what is available here take a look at King Arthur Flour's web site.. Or you can visit Bob's Red Mill. These two companies are both retail and mailorder. They offer a wide variety of unbleached, unbromated, organic flours and whole grains.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Kyle,
Thanks for that KA site. I use the K A Special and thought it was the only thing available to me here. I put a call into my salesperson to see about getting some of the other flours to try.
It is considerably higher in price than the local stuff. Do you think thats because I'm in Texas or is it high in general?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I think KA stuff is generally a little more expensive. They have never done me wrong and I'd rather pay up a little and know what I'm getting.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Yes, I agree. I really like the idea that you can track the flours.
You know we can get some patent flours from up north, but without some way for the consumer to track the age and the shipping conditions they are just as unreliable as our local stuff. I'm switching to the cake flour immediately if I can get it. If the % is exact as they say, it will certainly beat what I'm using now.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Thanks for the flour advice Panini.

Momo,

I’ve heard of replacing part of the flour with starch. In Perfect Pastry, Malgieri uses starch in some of his cakes. In The Art Of The Cake, the authors advice replacing some of the flour by potato starch, 


Cake made with American all purpose flour are sometimes too coarse and not tender enough because the flour contains too much gluten-forming proteins. We have developed a simple rule of thumb to remedy the problem using potato starch: For one ounce (25g) all purpose flour substitute 1/3 ounce (10g) potato starch plus 1 large egg yolk. The potato starch replaces the starch in the flour and the protein in the egg yolk are a non gluten forming replacement for the proteins in the flour. The result is invariably a cake with a finer crumbs and a moister and more tender texture…. We have used this substitution with great success in the classic pound cake and in génoise


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Hmmm...interesting...and the results are the same as you'd get with cake flour?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Isa,
I'm not understanding, but that is nothing new.

If my genoise calls for 3lbs flour . What would you substitute? 2 lbs of flour and 1lbs of potato starch and 16 yolks. Is this something you do all the time or are you quoting from a book? I'm also not understanding why not use a flour with less protien like cake flour.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Your posts.

I have loved reading this thread!!!
I have learned a great deal.
Thank you
cc


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I was quoting from The Art Of The Cake by Bruce Healy and Paul Bugat…

You are right Panini it doesn't make sense. Not presented like that anyway. Should this be a master formula it should be consistent right? I mean for 25 g flour you would have 10 g starch and 1 yolk. (Sorry can't get it straighter)

………………………………Flour………Starch………Yolk 
………………………………-in grams…in grams 

English Cake ………………110 ………17……….…..0 
Génoise …………………...…175 ………20 ……..……7 
Génoise Log ……………….125 ………10 …………...1 
Malgieri Génoise……………57 ……….21…………...0 
Lemon Cake………………..140……….30……...… ..2 
Pound Cake…………………200……….10…………...1 
Savoie Cake…………………50………..50…………....0 


Checking the recipes, it's not consistent. Here is the ingredient list for the génoise recipe from the book, for two 9 inch rounds baked in cake pans or two 8 1/4 inch rounds baked in cake rings.

7 large eggs, at room temperature
2 egg yolks, at room temperature
8 ounces (225 g) sugar
6 1/4 ounces (175 g)all purpose flour
3/4 ounce (20 g) potato starch
1 ounce (30 g) unsalted butter barely melted

The pound cake, for a 6 cup loaf pan, is as follow:

8 ounces (225 g) unsalted butter barely melted
8 ounces (225 g) superfine or extra fine sugar, chilled in the refrigerator
4 large eggs, at room temperature
1 egg yolk, at room temperature
1 teaspoon (5 ml) vanilla extract
7 ounces (200 g)all purpose flour
1/3 ounce (10 g) potato starch

Conclusion? The guys are better baker than mathematician. Even if the American is a former physicit... The French one is a pastry chef owner of the Patisserie Clichy.

More seriously the recipes are good. I never looked at it that closely before though. Does it make a better cake? To know for sure one has to make two génoise one with starch and one without. One day I'll have to try it.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well I think that the formula is a good substitute for not having cake flour. on a small level. My 20 qt genoise recipe is the smallest I have.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Dare I say they have a formula for that too...


As an exemple of how to compensate for a flour with different protein content, we will use King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour. The King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour has a protein content of about 11.7%, which is too high for cake making. King Arthur also makes an unbleached white pastry flour, called Round Table pastry flour, which has a much lower proteins content (about 9.2%) than all-purpose flour. To compensate for the higher protein content of King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour compared to Gold Medal, we recommend two possible substitution. For each 7 ounces (200 g) of all-purpose flour called in one of our recipes, use:

* either 3 ounces (100 g) King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour
plus 3 1/2 ounces (100 g) Round Table white pastry flour.

* or 6 1/4 ounces (180 g)King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour plus 1/3 ounce (10 g) potato starch.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

well needless to say, mixing flours here is not popular. but I think if you want a softer flour you will need to know the wheat before blending. If the apf is running 11.7 to me ,its more like bread flour. mixing pastry would still not be soft enough for cake, I don't know.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Yes, that does sound high for ap. Why not just use the pastry flour straight up?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Nick Malgieri once scolded me for using KA AP flour (11.7 % protien) in cookies. He told me "KA flour is for bread, not cookies."


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Well I'm pretty ignorant but my senses can't detect alot of these difference in flours. There's only some items where I can notice the texture differences like some cakes. I don't see it in most cookies. 

Please forgive me Kyle I mean nothing personal (honestly) just my stupid old tastes and loud opinions, but I lack respect for Nick M. because I've made many recipes from him and they really are some of the worst examples of baking I've come across over the years. Sorry, I know he's well respected in the baking industry, that's just my personal opinion in respect to the recipes I've tried of his. 

Rules in books aren't always right or the best advice, which is a whole new can of worms....I have sub.ed in and out a % of cornstarch for flour successful many times. In many items it works very well. But I'll only do that in items that I want a shorter or drier texture in like crusts or cookies, also alot of lady finger recipes do that too.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

He has always spoken very highly of you


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

This thread is the reason I was looking for not coming to the States...

The life is too complicated there. Three kind of flours to make things that...

Hold your mouth Vivian!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

...go bump in the night? Take a deep cleansing breath my Hellenic friend  You tell me about your flour and I'll find it here in the Good 'ole U.S. of A.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

What go bump in the night means Kylie?

Something good or something bad? ( Seriously I don't know the expression)

I have counted already to bring just for you some of the flour I use!!!  

I hope you don't like it!!! Think what will happen to us if we will have our flour sent to NY from Greece 


I am not Hellenic, I am Greek.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

First things first. I apologize fro my confusing Hellenic and Greek. Here is the source of my confusion.

*Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary*
Main Entry: 1Hel·len·ic 
Pronunciation: he-'le-nik, h&-
Function: adjective
Date: 1644
: of or relating to Greece, its people, or its language; specifically : of or relating to ancient Greek history, culture, or art before the Hellenistic period

Second things second. "Things that go bump in the night" are scarey things.  The Boogie Man would most definately go bump in the night.

Third things third. I am sure that we will be able to find you a flour that will suit your baking needs. ****, we got Kansas, Montana etc. etc. We're lousy with the stuff


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

AP flour can be used for most anything by adding:

Bread 1/2 apf + 1/2 high gluten

pastry 1/2 apf + cake flour

cake 3/4 apf + 1/4 starch 


this is all give or take.

cake flour is ment to hold vertically, pastry horizontally and ap with limited each way and bread max each way. 

this is the simple way my tiny brain functions.

Kyle, you crack me up!

I had a problem making a 2 cup h2o bread mix in my new places 6 quart mixer. here is how i fixed it= I substitued half the apf with hgf and what a happy day i had! 

flour is your friend, blend with it!


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

He he he

I know what Hellenic means I went to Cambridge after all.

But we consider ourselves nouns and not adjectives! 

Seriously now. For historical reasons that have nothing to do with this thread we'd rather be called Greeks  

Although the correct word is Hellenes and not Hellenic ,regardless if Anglosaxonic dictionaries seem to ignore that,( Funny , they use the Homeric dictionaries only when it's convenient to them...) for political reasons I'd rather be called Greek. 
Just to remind to people that we have wounds that bleed.

As for the rest of your message...

It's all Greek to me :lol: :lol:

I will bring you some flour I use anyway, it will be fun to experiment with that, I guess


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Originally posted by Athenaeus 
"we'd rather be called Greeks"

C'est tout finis!


M- 2 cups water means about 6 cups total flour? I think my seven QT mixer would be OK with that. It's the dough that's half that size that wraps itself around the hook an doesn't knead fully. Any thoughts there? It's the problem I was talking about on Saturday.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

the extra gluten kicked it's doughy little hine into action for me. the bread dough i am making has spices, raisins and buttermilk, yeast flour, sugar and walnut oil. mmmmmmmm great with cheese.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Sounds downright tasty! Speaking of tasty and cheese and walnut(oil), ever try walnut-blue cheese bread? Very tasty!


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I looked up the KA website. I think everything there is REALLY expensive! I go through @ 300 lbs of bread flour per week. A 50# bag of General Mills "All Trumps" bread flour (12% gluten) runs me $8.49, delivered to my door. My bags come with the milling date STAMPED on the bag, in plain English. I am fortunate to live 12 miles from a brand new mill operate by Fisher. I know the plant manager and have learned all about the milling process. I assure you these people are as serious about their product as KA. If I wanted to go pick up my own flour, I can get it MILLED THAT DAY, for @ $4.50 a #50 bag. I am also 100 miles away from Camas Grain, who only mill ORGANIC flour. I find that very fresh flour acts differently than the older stuff. I get my best results from flour that is a week or two old. I guess that is what I am used to...


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Oh man, your hot today Kyle  

Tell him he owes me about 80 bucks.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Wait just a gosh darn minute here! Now we are blending flour again.
Hey Peachcreek, ask your milling friend if it is a fact that blending goes on in places like the south. Most of our local wheat is spring.I would like to know if if my yahoo rep know what he has been talking about all these years.
MBrown Ifind it hard to believe you would stoop to 'home version'
flour


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Excuse me in advance for changing the topic but I just found this and I want to share it with you.

I was doing some reading on Turmeric the spice, and I discovered a famous Persian wise man who wrote one of the first books of Grammar about the Greek Language and he has written about Turmeric.

His name?

Panini


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Panini,
Home Version? 
I work in restaurant and since space is always limited and the spoons use the flour too they always use Hotel Restaurant Flour = AP flour. 
Now I am so happy to be at the new place where I have access to beautiful High Gluten flour as well as the AP! 
When I need the others I simply add and subtact gluten and starch!
Oh, and honey, I don't stoop, not in these shoes (berkinstocks kitchen clogs that squeek no less)!

Love your posts and I am digging the thread, it proves, there is more than one way to skin a cat!!!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

HEY! I resemble that remark!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

m brown,LOL, pg2 down2.
Berkinstocks clogs?Restaurant?APF that has more protien them hi-glut,digging?,
Are you ironing your flour?
Athenaeus, Yes, you've revealed the secret. I come from old Persian blood(this is why I can skin the cat).I have a thing for tumeric and am always grammatically correct. and of course you all know about the Wise A__ part.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

crazy idea, how about smoking flour? In a smoker like you'd smoke a fish????
smoked Winter wheat bread with sea salt and cracked black pepper?
I think I just lost my mind!!!
Or I am a genius!
:bounce: 

What about smoked spring wheat apple pie with aged chedder coulis? 

tee hee hee

Not as crazy as using tobacco in baking!


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Um ,M Brown..I do think you have lost your mind.
I for one prefere my Boules Un smoked.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

I may just try this. I have a stove top smoker and all manner of wood chips............
great with cheese
peanut butter and jelly on smoked pullmen loaf........
don't laugh, we eat artichoks and lobster and sea urchins.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Knowing your great ability with all things sweet, I have no reason to believe your peanut butter and jelly sandwich on smoked pullmans loaf with be anything short of sublime. perhapes a toasty, smokey cote rotie to compliment?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Is it possible that flour is not the only thing she's smokin'?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Perhaps kyle, Perhaps


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Ok, lets stop all this nonsence and get to smoking. What are we smoking? The finished bread or the flour?
C'mon m brown you must completely loose you mind, getting a little crazy won't do.
Ya know our smokers are never left for cold down here, we smoke everything,cig,turkey,tires,Gumba's,
We sometimes grill our fococcia for our panini's over hickory. I'm thinking smoking the flour will change the properties,BUT! I can see smoking the whole loaf.
WAIT!!!!!! smoking during a closed door steam proof. Bye gotta go, I gotta find that trademark/patent site.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I thought you were already wacky before this thread, mbrown. :roll: :crazy:


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Finally read through this whole thread -- all of you guys are a hoot! AND full of really interesting information. Please, please, Panini, don't ever go away for long!

Smoking the flour, huh? Why not? Sounds to me like it could work. No crazier than cold-smoking butter with walnut shells. Maybe if you do a really strong smoke on a small amount, then mix it (sorry, Panini) with unsmoked -- 'cause how can you smoke a lot (pounds and pounds = big volume) at once? Depends on your smoker, of course, I'm just wondering about the degree of penetration unless you can stir the flour from time to time.

Which properties of the flour might change? Moisture content, probably. Kind of like roasting cornmeal -- say, maybe I'll try smoked cornmeal, for a quickbread (that's more my speed than all the heavy-duty stuff you all do). Oooh, you've inspired me again! Love you all.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I copy from the book of Deipnosophists

Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, Boox VII 695b, LOEB Classical Library, translation Charles Burton Gullic

Athenaeus : "You were saying Deimochares about the habit of smoking the flour in the of colonies of Magna Grecia*. Would you like to inform us on this practice. Is it tradition or a ritual habit" ?
Deimochares : " Not all the colonies, Athenaeus, only in Kolofon, according to Dioscourides they smoke the flour before they bake their bread" 
Athenaeus: " And how the famous doctor ( Dioscourides) explains this strange habit" ?
Deimochares : "He doesn't. He just list this habit with other ones of the people of Kolofon"
Athenaeus" Why" ?
Deimochares: " Probably, to prove that the people of Kolofon were strange people indeed "

* Magna Craecia was the group of Greek colonies on the island of Sicily-Italy

   

I don't know if smoking the flour is an easy task. 
My loaves that are baked in a traditional brick oven, have this slight taste of smoke, especially if I have used wood of olive tree in combination with pine tree to fire up the oven. 
Before you ask, I have made the experiments already. 
The logo for woods are 1 piece of pine tree : 2 of olive


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

go figure, I am Sicilian!


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

cold smoking cooked grain that is then added to dough.....
smoking flour.....if you've got a wood fueled oven how would smoking the flour change the flavor vs. baking dough vs finished product....?????Curious minds wanna know.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Athenaeus,
Those people from Kolofon were strange people, and their black cookware? what's that all about?


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I didn't understand the question Panini, unless this is a kind of question that the original Athenaeus is posing...


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Sorry kids...no smoking in the bakeshop.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

My my, what have we here! This is one of the best threads in a while! Talk about opening Pandora's box! Way to go Isa...and thanks KyleW for the heads-up!


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

So nice to see you online Kimmie. You should definitely visit more often.


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