# Barbecue (Smoking) Forums



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I went over and joined the Smoke Ring Forums on thetincook's recommendation in another thread, have been lurking and read through lots of threads, but don't see much to interest me. Curious as to what Tin thinks is good -- if he's reading this. 

Maybe I'm missing something.

Since changing heat sources from gas to charcoal and moving from a horizontal offset to a vertical, water smoker (BWS Fatboy), the abysm of my ignorance, never small, has enlarged dramatically.  I'm certainly looking for a good barbeque forum.  If anyone happens to be in or otherwise know of one, please let me know.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've never found a good bbq forum either. They all think they have the secrets and won' t discuss deeply.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've never found a good bbq forum either. They all think they have the secrets and won' t discuss deeply. Or don't really know what they think'they know.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

/shrug I like it mainly because it has a very active membership base with a lot of professionals. Kinda like a cheftalk about bbq. As a general rule about forums, I think you'll find more of interest if you start topics re your interest and/or be active in discussion rather then lurking.

Guess it's a case of YMMV


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I'd love to talk BBQ. OK, so maybe you don't want to hear _me_ talk. Still, we can talk here as much as you want. We are all kinda sorta professionals, right? We should be able to have some good conversations.


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Any of you guys used an altoshaam with smoke?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I've used a  on my car.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Still don't see what the big deal is in BBQ/Smoking. I could see BBQ in the South, people didn't have much money, they had to use the least tender cuts of meat. Does anyone really think the people in Mexico would be eating all the guts and head of the Cow if they were offered the prime cuts. They made something out of whatever the rancher threw out. I raise my own Black Angus Cows, I would rather eat the prime cuts and taste the real flavor of the meat................When I get a craving for smoke, I'll eat some jerky..............The bone in Prime Rib goes in the oven at noon........................ChefBillyB


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

You know, ChefBillyB, I think you're pretty close.

We don't talk much bout smokin down here because it's somthin we always done. Most everyone knows how to smoke. It's like chili, most recipes,method and proceedure will vary

from one to the other. Then the smoking world blew up. Then all the hoity toities started to try to claim the method by doing all this silly tweeking and changing things up.

    Billy, you're right about the money. The best barbque is the cheapest barbque. Gather free local woods, oak,pecan. Make your smoker out of anything that you find to be acceptable.

Put that meat in the smoker before your last shiner and mother will bring up the fixins in the morning.

   The best barbque for me is at my brother in laws ranch. Actually ours but he built the house. We usually have 30-40 staying there and we invite the local twns people. Pop. 350++

Neighbor has cows so he supplies the beef&pork. We use cheap ole aluminum garbage cans. Small door by the bottom for wood to go in and we just run rebar through each side to create grates. We have an old apple orchard way back on the property. We sent all the kids out on the quads to retrieve the wood. This was our best tasting so far.

   I invited all the chef friends I know to come up in Sept. We're going to spend a few days hunting hogs. I have never smoked one before. Sound hot but sounds like fun.

  You know, it's like poker hold em. When I arrived here decades ago, hold em was a trash game we used to play after a few shiners. We would sit out and play dominos and inside was hold em.  Now you go to play hold em and the tables are full of younger players wearing baseball hats and sunglasses. Thinking their playing for millions. LOL

Ice, what the hell is that?


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## eastshores (Oct 23, 2008)

ChefBillyB said:


> Still don't see what the big deal is in BBQ/Smoking.


I'd say largely the experience. BBQ is low and slow cooking, which you know can be done in an oven, so why the fanaticism about it? Well, have you ever spent 9 hours sitting around with a light breeze and a cold brew talking and laughing, people playing music, kids running around having fun. All of it building to a climax of an epic line of perfectly cooked briskets, pork, chicken, etc. and all of the great sides that usually accompany it? Smoking/BBQ is an event more than just a food. I love a good prime cut steak as much as anyone else but that enjoyment is not mutually exclusive to the enjoyment of a great BBQ.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

BillyB,

Surely you jest.  If you think smoking proteins, "low and slow" is and or was traditionally limited to the south, or traditionally limited to less desirable cuts, you're buying the good ol' boys' BS -- and at retail. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

thetincook said:


> /shrug I like it mainly because it has a very active membership base with a lot of professionals. Kinda like a cheftalk about bbq. As a general rule about forums, I think you'll find more of interest if you start topics re your interest and/or be active in discussion rather then lurking.
> 
> Guess it's a case of YMMV


I'm not looking for recipes particularly, or beginner advice -- not that it doesn't hurt to meditate on fundamentals. I've been smoking for close to forty years, including doing a fair bit of catering, and I'm just not seeing the stuff I want to read at the Smoke Ring Forums, not reading much by people with whom I'd care to share a dialogue. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong threads.

Smoking is often very equipment dependent. Things like fire management, wrapping, temperature choices, and so on vary from pit to pit. I'm not seeing much about my new type of smoker.



Not the particular brand -- Backwoods -- so much, but tight, charcoal fired cabinets with water pans. It may seem a rather highly specialized topic, but they're not really all that uncommon. If active forum members were doing it, I think I'd see it by browsing and lurking. There's certainly plenty of other type and brand specific stuff -- which may better relate to what you do and use.

I appreciate your advice about forum participation though, and will bear it in mind.

Thanks,

BDL


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Sorry, didn't mean to be pedantic or condescending.

One of the most popular builds on the forum is a vertical smoker with water pan (they are split on the water pan part), so I'm guessing that there is some useful information out there. Fire management is so idiosyncratic, that I don't think you could expect anything more then general principles.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Tin,

It would make it easier if you used words that I didn't need to google./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

Quote:

not reading much by people with whom I'd care to share a dialogue

I'm sure I fit that description, but wondering who the boy's are?

Quote:


> you're buying the good ol' boys' BS -- and at retail.


Any given Sat. or Sun. when it's below 95F there will be at least 20 smokers going in the neighbor. It's part of the culture.

I spent a lot of time up North in various States. I'm not bsing when I say I never saw or heard of any smoking going on.

60-70's I also can't recall any Mexican eateries.

There was a lot of Bar b quing going on. No hot smoking. There was some cool smoking going in the late 70's. But that was mainly

directing smoke over fish with a large ember in for flavor.

I'm sure I'll be bounced for this but it's common knowledge here that The bar b que came up from the islands to the indians in Kentucky then to Tex.

I don't think equipment has anything to do with a good smoke. I had the oportunity to attend bar b ques with decendants of slaves. They live in the country

and smoke in a pit. Native Texans with a history here would never put beef in the smoker. It's always pork. I think the beef came into play as smoking spread

toward Kansas City. We tend to smoke at a lower temp. then most. I have to chuckle when people refer to putting water under the meat as wet smoking.

From what I've seen it looks like steaming to me. The water is to stop flare up from the drip and controll heat if you don't have a seperate box. I have had the purposely steamed version

that was outstanding. They actually imparted flavor that way with original DR. Pepper and Jack Daniels in the pot. They go hot on the beginning

so that the liquid actually simmers.

There has been a movement towards injectioning. I actually use a vetanarian autopsy tools for injection. gross? no?

BTW Boar_d,

When I was talking about standup smokers with water,I wasn't referring to yours. Those smokers have become popular here. I think it's a Chubby?

I've got a good buddy that has a boat in LA. We usually drive and tow one of my toys down to the Shrimp & Petroleum Festival. This year we are

definately stopping by backwoods to pick up a smoker. My neighbor has one and I use it a lot. There is a difference though. The water tray can be used to controll heat.

Well back to Hold-em

pan


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Panini,

You're an interesting guy with a big storehouse of knowledge, but...  Talk about buying the BS.

The word "barbecue" was almost certainly derived from a Taino word.  So, you kinda sorta got a little bit of truth with that.  I'm not sure where the Kentucky connection comes in, as for the rest... not so much.  Just think about it and it's intuitively obvious that if grilling and/or smoking were "invented" in North America, those methods were independently discovered by the Africans, Asians and Europeans -- since they (we, really) were doing those things since deep pre-prehistory. 

Do you think the ancients never cooked a piece of meat in a wood fired, indirect heat oven?  Do you think the Huns needed Columbus to teach them smoke sausage?  Do you think no one ever cued and pulled a pork shoulder until the English populated the Carolinas? Sorry, but great uncle Billy Bob wasn't the first -- no matter what he says. 

I'm not saying that the southern American style of barbecue hasn't become the dominant style in the U.S., nor even saying that it doesn't form the basis of most of what I 'cue and how I usually go about it when doing low and slow smoking.  But there are other, just as wonderful ways.  I grew up in a couple of California's central coastal valleys, and let me tell you that what we did there was darn sure barbecue even if it didn't look a lot like KCBS.

You're over-generalizing form your own experience I think, and what you said about "Mexican Eateries" bears that out.  If "Mexican" food went north from Texas it also did from the rest of the border and Gadsden states -- California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Colorado.  In California we have two major, authentic styles (although you seldom see them distinguished) actual, regional Mexican and "Californio."  And I know all the other states which had been part of Mexico have something along the same lines.

The point being that much as Mexican food did not originate in Texas nor even play the dominant role in it becoming national, so with the roots of barbecue. 

Moving right along...

The "Chubby" is the junior version of a "Fatboy."  If you do a lot of entertaining the Chubby is kind of small.  The Fatboy isn't all that big either.  It sems like whichever BWS model you're talking about, you're talking about a very tight, easy to control, cooker.  There have been more than a few guys who've tried to adapt the water pan to sand -- like a lot of folks do with WSMs -- but it doesn't seem to have netted any really impressive results; on top of that, even though dealing with the sludge that gets in the pan is not the most pleasant task, it's a lot better than clean up would be if there were nothing or anything else down there; and the cherry on top is that it helps stabilize the temp by acting as a ballast.

I've only done five cooks on mine so far, and am nowhere near ready to review it yet in any considered sort of way, but I think you could do a LOT worse.  One of those things which is "very expensive for what it is, but still a bargain."  If you're going to buy one, order way early.  There's a lot of lead time, especially if you want any custom mods.

I'm still trying to figure out the best fuels for mine.  I've tried commercial grade mesquite lump charcoal and some very high end briquettes (Lazzari) for heat.  The briquette got the pit up to cooking temp much faster, and overall was a very pleasant surprise -- but too expensive.  The mesquite I get (from CalChar) has lots of lumps too big for the Fatboy's fire pan.  That not only means picking through my charcoal bin, but that I can't pack the firebox as evenly as I like.  At the end of the day, I think I'll end up using one of the better mesquite lumps like Lazzari Mesquite, but haven't got there yet.

For smoke, I've been using some old pecan chunk but it's kind of dry and not doing the best job in the world. Just that little bit acrid, if you know what I mean.  But while it's easy to get fireplace log size hardwood here, it's hard to get good chunk and splits.  They tend to not only be expensive (drag), but also dried out (major drag) to stay "stabilized" in their plastic-bag packaging.  I suppose I could get a chain saw and set up a little station out back, but laziness got to me and I ordered 50 lbs each of oak and pear splits from Fruita.  How bad can it be?  If I can find some good maple at a reasonable price, another fifty pounds should take me all the way through the fall.

FWIW, I usually cold smoke over oak and/or cherry -- but that's a different rig.

BDL

PS.  If I seem prickly I apologize.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, I guess you educated me? I did write Ken. instead of Car.Thats a mental problem I have. I mentioned that I never saw Mex. when I was up north.

I don't have enough knowedge to speak on origin.

I think, gros blagueur, is the last thing I am or buy into. Most all of my knowledge is from word of mouth. I prefer this method mainly because

most everything in print now a days is either bogus or has a specific agenda. I think a lot of people get a little confused when they talk about( smoking)

and bar b que. I thought I was posting to *smoking *which would eliminate the accusation of BS.

I think I'm going to take a break from posting and do a little lurking.

I'll let those that respond to almost everything, regurgitate from wikipedia.

GTG. have to check my pork butts in the smoker. Got a lamb leg goin also. tryin a new (mushed garlic,mint,peach,tequilla) injection./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Come on boar. There's no way this can be taken well, particularly in text without the benefit of tone of voice. It's a personal attack and forbidden by the rules. Don't go there.


boar_d_laze said:


> Panini,
> 
> You're an interesting guy with a big storehouse of knowledge, but... Talk about buying the BS.
> ....
> PS. If I seem prickly I apologize.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

The BBQ forums are populated with new people who buy into the "you have to cook they way they do at BBQ competitions to be any good" mentality. Having cooked with all wood in a Klose, charcoal in the typical cheap leaky offset, charcoal in a weber grill, and now a wood pellet fired Traeger I can say they all produce a slightly different product but all are good and I would serve it to anyone other than a BBQ competition judge who is using his idea of what BBQ should taste like to judge it. Home cooks can do the best with what they have and turn out very good food. And yes the fun is having the neighbors over for an afternoon of slow cooking and socializing.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I apologize to Panini and the board if my post seemed like a personal attack.  It wasn't meant that way, but clearly was inartfully worded. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Posted by *MaryB* 


> The BBQ forums are populated with new people who buy into the "you have to cook they way they do at BBQ competitions to be any good" mentality. Having cooked with all wood in a Klose, charcoal in the typical cheap leaky offset, charcoal in a weber grill, and now a wood pellet fired Traeger I can say they all produce a slightly different product but all are good and I would serve it to anyone other than a BBQ competition judge who is using his idea of what BBQ should taste like to judge it. Home cooks can do the best with what they have and turn out very good food. And yes the fun is having the neighbors over for an afternoon of slow cooking and socializing.


Mary,

I agree with every word you posted here. I've been a member of several forums, most of them not very good, and mostly for the reasons you mentioned. I was on that actually was good, but it was invitation only, I lost the address several years ago during one of my periodic flights from the net, and can't figure out how to get back.

What I'm hoping to find is a forum which includes people who cook at a fairly high level, a diversity of barbecue styles -- not just "KCBS" or even American south -- and some depth of experience with Backwoods smokers.

FWIW, I'm enjoying the heck out of my BWS Fatboy and have got it rigged with both a Guru and the new Maverick ET-732. The Guru minds the pit and the Mav lets me know that all is well... or not. I haven't done that many cooks on it, but it seems to run faster than my old small offset. I attribute it to the extra tightness and humidity transferring heat more efficiently -- but am not sure. Anyway, that's the sort of thing I'd like to discuss outside the BWS forum which does have smoker specific wisdom, but not the depth of cooking creativity and expertise.

Maybe that forum doesn't exist, or maybe this just isn't the right place to ask.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I think there's a subconscious undercurrent among the better cooks who also barbecue that this is a one true barbecue in much the same way that Escoffier or Larouse codified French cooking. But barbecue diversified too quickly across too wide an area. And the word is used very inconsistently.

These issues haunt all barbecue discussions whether spoken or not. We don't know which variant of barbecue resides in the other person's mental narrative. How many times do we hear about great fall-off-the-bone barbecue. To those whose narrative contains knowledge of competition, those words form an oxymoron.

We might consider a common usage of sorts, something like:

casual barbecue to include the non-regional grilling of burgers, dogs, chicken pieces--whilch many feel is not real barbecue at all, but the word is used this way
enthusiast barbecue for the casual barbecue types who step up to the common low and slow cuts and techniques but without regional bias or intent
[region] barbecue to discuss specific tradtional regional techniques and flavors where region is something like NC, TX, Memphis KC and the like
Competition barbecue which gets into a more targeted kind of doneness and flavors generally defined by the KCBS standards
Create a FAQ of this stuff and add it to our WIKI to refer new members to so they know what we're talking about and learn to communicate clearly with us.

Hey, it's the technical writer in me.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*BRILLIANT*_ post. I agree with everything you said.



MaryB said:


> _*<< everything she said >>*_


This is the same kinda idea like everyone who watches a cooking show/competition on TV knows what the hey they are doing when they try to do it the same way. _"Since Joe Schmoe did it this way on "XYZ Show", then that must be the way to do it." "I'm now an expert critic because I follow what "Johnny Public" said on TV."_


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

See if they could add a BBQ forum here. This place would have the wide variety of people and places. State that BBQ is the art of low and slow cooking(there are some hot and fast techniques but I rarely see a neophyte try to use them) and not grilling hamburgers or hotdogs.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I asked a serious bbq question here about fuel.  Not just for kicks, not a test, real questions for which I'd like some good input.  We'll see if they generate any interest.  I don't know whether there's enough of a population here that are at all serious about 'q for the kind of knowledge base that will bring newbies in with questions and old timers with their experience to help and schmooze.  Hope so.

BTW, did you know I bought a Klose "Santa Maria" style grill?  I'm liking it beaucoup.

Feeble minds want to know,

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Based on the volume of barbecue questions in the past, I don't think there is sufficient interest to warrant  a dedicated forum.

Huddler supports social groups of a sort where you can establish ongoing discussions on particular topics. I don't think that feature is enabled on our site currently, but will check on it.  Posts and such still show up in the activity feed so you'll get attention of people who don't necessarily know about the group.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi all,

    BDL, The Fatboy sure isn't just another vertical smoker, although you already knew that.  I really love the double wall design and how the fire box is isolated from the chamber, it's really seems like a vertical convection smoker.

    I've tried a few different brand of lump in my smoker and while all of them worked, I did have my favorites.  My favorite has been Lazzari with a great burn and wonderful flavor.  There are a couple of different Royal Oak lumps that I've tried and all have been decent, with a decent burn and decent taste...nothing extraordinary...but decent.  I haven't tried Cowboy in quite some time...when I did this stuff was pure garbage with virtually no flavor, tons of pops and sparks, and plenty of tongue and groove flooring.  Most decent lumps are good...Like Wicked Good Lump, etc.  

   Fuel management!  I haven't had the pleasure of using any assistance on my FatBoy, maybe someday.  If I've got a good long smoke ahead of me I'll pack the firebox full and tight with lump.  Then I'll place some chunks in varying places atop the lump.  Next I light one small corner of my firebox with my Mapp gas torch (I light the hinge side outer corner).  I open my manual vents all the way while things are heating up and add the water once the chamber is near temperature.  After adding the water I'll let the chamber come up to temperature.  Once at temperature I'll close the intake vents nearly all the way leaving only a crack on each.  The rest of the burn is automatic, and the fuel burns spreading across the entire fire box.

   I like how the water pan is implemented in the BWS, it's really not just a vertical smoker.  I've also got the Hide Setter option on mine, which is a pass-thru of dry heat from the firebox.  This way I can get some warm dry air passed through to get that bark set, and closing after.  What I do with the sludge problem in the water pan is I buy full sized foil baking pans (1/2" sides) and place this on top of the water pan.  Now keep in mind, I've got the hide setter so it easily sites above the water.  But it should be easy enough to rig something up to keep the foil pan on top of the water.

   have fun!

  Dan


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## dledmo (Apr 7, 2006)

Grilling was my first passion for cooking, and is still the way I prefer to cook.  Smokering is OK, Barbecuebible (Steven Raichlen) is good also.  My favorite, and the forum I check the most is BBQ-4-U.com.  Most people are friendly and helpful and they really encourage pics, which are always fun to look at.  I have been a member of that forum since 2006, occasionally posting, but reading alot.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks so far everyone. The more information the better.

Dan -- your happy reaction was a big part of my choice.  So far I haven't regretted it, but would you send me the address of every one of your family members in case I do?

The nuances of this kind of cooking can be very pit specific, so we're probably doing most things in a very similar fashion. 

As you know I still haven't settled on a fuel choice.  At the end of the day it will probably be CalChar and/or Lazzari, but why not fuel around and do some experimenting?  But good fuel is good fuel -- what else is new?

The splits from Fruita probably won't get here until later in the week, but everything is very encouraging so far.  They have a great rep, shipped immediately, and respond to e-mail questions expeditiously.

I am using a sort of suspenders and belt approach to temp control by using both a Guru for the control itself, and a Maverick 732 to check on the Guru.  I load the tray, leaving a space near the front (but not right at the door) for a chimney's worth of fuel; open the offside (back, left) vent all the way, top vent all the way, and Guru's choke wide open; start the fire with (you'll never guess) a hot, chimney load;  when the pit temp hits 160, I load the water pan with a few gallons of hot water from the tap; when the temp hits the desired temp (225; 250; or 275, depending), I close the offside vent, half-close the flu, and choke the Guru -- how much depends on how hot I want to run; and start monitoring pretty closely. So far, so good.

If you have a smoker, don't want to run and check on it every few minutes, and don't have the new Maverick ET-732, you want one. It's a big improvement over the ET-72, which was already pretty good.   I'd say that's true for anyone who's got a smoker, and doesn't have some sort of more advanced wireless like a Stoker.

No "hide setter."

At least so far, I've found the "clean the water pan" miseries to be overblown.  The first time sucked, yes.  Now, I drain the pan into a bucket, scrape the sludge out with two large, plastic putty knives and dispose of it in a plastic bag.  The chrome-over-steel racks need more cleaning than I was used to, so I sponge them, the (stainless) interior side of the door, and thermometer stem with Easy Off grill cleaner; and rinse the $#^! out of them.   Not so bad. 

So far, I've done things very simply and stayed away from my fancier techniques and gags just to get a sense of what's going on.  It doesn't look like much of that is going to change -- except, of course, this old dog will learn some new tricks -- so much for the "equipment specific" theory.  But, I am finding that the Fatboy (and I think this is true of all BWS) cooks a bit faster at any given temp than other units I've used in the past.  My guess is that's due to the overall tightness plus the high, constant humidity in the cook chamber, but that's just a guess.

Have you ever written a review of yours?  I can't remember.  I'd love to see one if you haven't, and see it another time if you have.  I'll do one for CFG after gaining more experience; but I'd sure like to read yours (again?) first.

BDL


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

I would love to have one of the Klose grills. My offset had the optional firebox grate and top lid so I could grill over all wood. I do it in my Weber kettle but it is hard on the charcoal grates with the higher temps.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mary -- I know exactly what you mean about the low temp-tolerance of Weber Kettle grates. Although that's not the only thing -- Being able to burn big enough sticks to get a decently long cook, means having a lot of height to play with between charcoal and cooking grates. Especially when you get into various styles of open pit.

I bought the grill with the very specific idea of doing what a lot of people think of as "Santa Maria" style barbecue.

I suppose enough people call it that, that "Santa Maria" has become its right name -- despite the fact that the style of cooking was very common all through California beef country. Beef was king here since before California was a part of the U.S., and the style of cooking on big pits with grates which could be raised or lowered on chains has been around for a long time.

In case you missed the pictures I already posted in the brining thread, here are three of them again.

First, hood down:



Now hood up, grates down:



That black box you can barely see on the left is my new smoker, a Backwoods Fatboy.

The Klose again, hood up, grate raised about half way:



It's a fantastic pit, cooks like a dream, and does _almost _everything I wanted. But dammit I'm having some issues with Klose about a small mod I ordered which they forgot to execute. I'm not about to ship it back. Besides, we're in love.

Speaking of California Beef Barbecue and its origins -- if you're ever in the coastal valleys -- Santa Barbara, Santa Ynez, Lompoc, Santa Maria, San Luis Obispo, to name a few -- and you sit down to a big top sirloin (traditional) or a tri-tip (Johnny come lately, started to get popular in the forties) dinner -- note that the _traditional_ sides include _frijoles de la olla_ and the kind of fresh salsa _gabachos_ like to call _pico de gallo_. Not just Californian, but a fair bit of _Californio_ too -- just to show how long it's been around. Not that there hasn't been evolution... for instance, you get that great Danish style cucumber salad if you're near Solvang. To me that salad seems traditional because it's part of my own boyhood, but it's really pretty darn local.

Most of the big barbecues I've been to over the years around that part of the state -- whether at a home, or a dude ranch -- included both a smoker and a "swing set" grill like mine. That's what you call them, by the way -- swing sets.

I knew a couple of guys who cowboyed around those valleys when they got out of the army after WWII. It was still major beef country, and stayed that way until well into the seventies when land started getting a little too expensive. They boys some stories about barbecues, let me tell you. Of course, their stories didn't end up in discussions of equpiment. More likely they'd start talking about the brothel in Buellton they used to go to. One of them, Jake Copas, was something of a poet and could get pretty eloquent. Pass the whiskey.

A few years before it was supposedly invented by the Santa Maria Elk's Club, if you believe the internet, I used to eat that kind of 'cue in the very early fifties when I was just a little carnivore.

Anyway, back then the weekend meant pits EVERYWHERE -- just the way Panini desTexas during his callow years. And you know what? They're still thick on the ground in the valleys. What with its reputation and all the fundraising, they're frikkin' wall to wall in Santa Maria.

Enough with the stories. Pass the whiskey, please.

BDL


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi BDL,

  When it comes to smoking on the BWS, I've noticed that they do cook quick too.  I haven't done a review on the BWS, but I do have to say that I've been more than happy with it.  There are a few things that I've noted with my FatBoy.  Moving your meat to one of the upper shelves can help form a bark.  While the whole smoker is a nice temperature inside, I think there may be some dryer air near the top when the air first comes into the chamber.  When I suggested using a full cake pan for the bottom I was wrong.  I went to the store today (doing some BBb) and picked up some of the foil liners, they are in fact foil oven liners...which is good because they're fairly cheap.  Putting this in the bottom makes clean-up even easier, because you just drain the water...dry and then oil (greatly reduced sludge).  But the foil liner does a few things other than make clean up easier, it help conserve water.  For those long smokes this will help the water last a bit longer.  The last thing, that I think it helps with, is allowing moisture in the chamber...but a slightly reduced amount.

   I know that you are comfortable smoking, and with a variety of smokers.  While it may not be a HUGE smoker, it ended up holding more than I initially thought.  This smoker really brings a new definition to your advice NOT TO PEEK.  You can get a nice long smoke out of one load of fuel and one pan of water.  It sounds like we have some similarities in fire management, although I think I may be started with a much smaller fire in the corner. 

   When I want a much cooler smoke, like for bacon or fish, I'll add only two or three pieces of lump in the bottom and light them.  After they're lit I place one to two pieces of chunk on top of the lump.  I don't add any water and this usually gives me a nice cool smoke.

   I don't think I have done a review to look up, but I have gotten very comfortable with it.

    Dan


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

Now I really want one /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif I only cook for myself now so it is way to big. I am looking around at the smaller charcoal grills to see what I can find that would be better for 1 person. Or even a small gas grill(Yeah I know, not the same). The small Weber Q's have good ratings so that is maybe an option. I have one of the small Weber kettles and it doesn't have enough airflow to get to steak searing temps.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey Mary,

Not a wood burner, but the little Lodge "Sportsman" cast iron grill, is a very good charcoal burner for one.  It's expensive as hibachis go, around $100.  But if you look past the cheapo hibachis and look to how well the Lodge is made and how well it cooks, it's well worth it.  No problem getting a sear, that's for sure.

BDL


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

phatch, guess this is for you since you are a CT administrator...

i am not a 'cue-r' by any means, nor do i have the time, patience, interest or dedication that it takes to be a true 'cue head', but it seems that by creating a barbeque forum it would be a good opportunity to bring in new members with new energy to all the forums. isn't this part of what CT is all about?...building membership and networking and sharing information? if the cue-r's here are searching the internet looking for a decent forum and can't, then why wouldn't you want to create one here at home...just asking..god, now i sound like iceman!!

joey


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

There is a perspective from which your discussion makes sense. On the other hand, take a look at www.discusscooking.com for a counterexample. Lots of forums and subforums many only trafficked occasionally. A dead inactive forum about a topic of interest to a searcher is a site killer and an extra waste of administrative overhead.

The social group, allows a similar idea to yours to work within the existent community and demonstrate whether a dedicated forum is viable and still capitalize on the focused interests of its members.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

YES, the _Lodge_ is a very nice little grill, if you don't mind that it weighs about 200 lbs., _(OK, so they claim it's only 30 lbs., but it sure seems heavier)_. I've used this grill a number of times easily w/ wood. I use nice real charcoal lumps that can be found in bags at your high-quality, but also high-priced grocery stores _(Whole Foods / Trader Joe's type places)_. I like to jam a nice chunk of pecan or cherry or apple in there with the coals for nice smoking. It doesn't hold as much as a bigger unit so you need to pay a little more attention to it. It also doesn't have a top, so some improvisation is necessary. In the beginning I covered mine with an old washtub. Then I bought a junky giant Webber Kettle at a garage sale. I threw everything away except the lid. In a half-hour I fashioned a nice "holder-rail" out of some black pipe, and now it sits on top like a bubble. Yeah OK, lots of smoke comes out from the bottom, but it still works fine.



boar_d_laze said:


> Not a wood burner, but the little Lodge "Sportsman" cast iron grill, is a very good charcoal burner for one.
> 
> BDL




_*So hey, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.*_


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## oldpro (Nov 23, 2009)

I've enjoyed the BBQ Brethren and Texas BBQ Rub forums.  They both have a number of competition cookers blogging on them, and the two forums have bloggers from around the country. 

When I was in the golf course management business, and was doing a a fair amount of hunting as well, I would bring back a lot of game like venison and feral hogs. Our hispanic maintenance crew would prepare a "barbecoa" which involved a lot of wrapping loosely in foil and smoking with peppers, onions, and other aromatics.  We used mostly mesquite and pecan because that was what was available, and we would throw in a couple of briskets as well.  It was a different kind of smoking, and the crew turned out some really good stuff that was all served with salsas and peppers on tortillas.  .


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

fair enough phatch, but perhaps you could get a census of some sort before it ends up like a bill on the floor of the senate!!!

joey


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## oldpro (Nov 23, 2009)

In discussing different varieties of wood for smoking, I've come to the following personal conclusions:

Mesquite is great for making coals and cooking steaks and so forth.  In south Texas hunting camps, most of the cooks have a firepit with mesquite logs going full time, with a shovel to transfer the coals to whatever pit they are using.  I have gotten where I am not particularly fond of it for long, slow cooks, but it makes the best steaks.

Pecan is excellent.  We had a golf course in a pecan forest, so every time the wind blew we could gather up a ton of pecan wood.  We even purchased a log splitter and had storage rooms to age the pecan.  Green pecan IS NOT a good product to slow cook ribs and brisket.

Oak is probably my favorite for south Texas bbq if it is available. I might throw in a small amout of pecan or hickory as well.

Apple and cherry have become some of my favorites for home bbq.  It's a bit pricey for large cookouts in this area, but I mix it with a little oak or hickory for ribs, pork butts, and brisket on my offset and WSM. 

I have grown to prefer the lump hardwood charcoal in certain brands.  It has a cleaner burn without all of the fillers used in briquettes. 

As I have gotten older, I prefer a lighter smoke flavor as opposed to heavy smoking which can become bitter.  I'm starting to get back into the Mexican style of bbq because I like the flavors it produces with all of the peppers.  My youngest son is also a bbq addict, and we have had a lot of fun competing with each other on different styles of bbq.  He likes an Asian touch.I 

BDL:

Regarding your Klose pit, I think that is the gold standard for any type pit you want.  We had a very large Klose offset on a trailer which we used in one of our operations.  I also had a Life Tyme offset double door pit refurbished by Klose after it rusted out.  When they got through it was better than when it was brand new.  Being from the Houston area, I have gone through their place on several occasions.  They know their stuff.

.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Can I get an OMG? These are exactly what they appear. Prime, dry-aged, rib eye, cooked over a live white oak fire.



The steaks were accompanied by brussel sprouts (yes, that is a 12" long suji, and yes, I do use it for general prep),



halved, sauteed along with some loose leaves to get some size and texture contrast and a clove's worth of very thinly sliced garlic in bacon fat,



braised southern style to a fare-thee-well to bring out their nutty flavor and garnished with the self same "lardons" which were cooked to render their fat; and cracked-wheat sourdough crostini, brushed with butter seasoned with the same "espresso-cocoa" rub I used for the steaks, and toasted over the same fire while the steaks rested. Oh, c'mon. You don't need a picture of crostini, it's just the pretentious word for _toast _with grate marks.

Moral of the story: Let the quality of the ingredients speak. For instance, there's barely enough "marinade" to moisten the surface of the steaks (note the proud display of 2 Buck Chuck, the ultimate cooking wine).



Even if most of doing this sort of cooking is simplicity itself, it's simplicity raised to an art form. Lots to share; lots to learn; lots of ways to skin the same cat better; and a few different cats. Is there enough interest here for this kind of cooking to justify it's own sub-forum?

Like Phatch, I guess no. And like durangojo, I'd like to know.

What do you think?

BDL


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## cookincam (Jul 15, 2011)

This is a great forum, I do about 80% of my summer cooking out there on the coals. Especially with this new barrel cooker I told you about. Ill have to start posting up some pictures here as well, Ive owned this new rig for about 2+ weeks and already made 9 hour smoked beef ribs, homemade BBQ sauce with all smoked veggies, rolled tip roast steaks with roasted poblano and pepper jack centers, and this weekend will be carolina style baby backs, collard greens, grilled lima beans, texas toast. Expect pictures on Monday.

PS. On the coals subject, try smart and final you can get a 40lbs bag of mesquite lump for 15.00, kingsford original for 6-7 bucks 20lbs, and mesquite or apple chips for 1.99 per 3 lbs. Use a coal starter, never use lighter fluid or treated coals, a good mix of lump and kingsford is the way to go, combining the burn factors of quick starting and burning kingford with the low and slow lump, I use about a 70% 30% mix, mostly mesquite, just use the 30% kingsford to build a good base and to start your mesquite or whatever wood. I have also found that if you are going for a hotter faster burn you can start the lump charcoal in a starter as well with little to no problems, and add it to your already hot standard charcoal, it wont last as long but it is a  much hotter fire.

-Cam


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*LOL.*_

One thing I do know, is that you're killing me w/ that 2BC. For the sweet love of goodness!!! You don't cook w/ wine you wouldn't drink _(and nobody should ever drink that grape piss)_. There are far too many decent wines for just pocket-change difference in price from 2BC, that there is no reason to abuse food with that stuff. I'm dying here.

_*AMEN*_ to the steaks though.


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## oldpro (Nov 23, 2009)

This is exactly the kind of subject that interests me. I don't know if it would fit this forum, but cooking over a live fire or coals, directly or slowly, is, to me, an ageless art, and I learn something everytime I light up the pit(s).



boar_d_laze said:


> Can I get an OMG? These are exactly what they appear. Prime, dry-aged, rib eye, cooked over a live white oak fire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

oh my, what big uh,uh, brussel sprouts you have... holy cow! i lke them roasted in the oven just with s&p and olive oil...i know, get my own pictures!  when i was the grill queen at a friend's restaurant a few years back, we had a 16 0z trimmed down rib eye called "da killer" ...yours have that same big look....god, we couldn't cut enough of them some nights...the texans just gobbled them down...hmmmm steak, red wine, bacon fat,...gout?  i'm not a carnivore as you know, but yours were beauties..i say 'were' cuz they are long gone by now..next time a pic of the actual plating/eating please..... how do you empty the ashes? scoop it out like in a fireplace or is there a removable tray or box?. thanks for the share...nice that you are enjoying your newest family mamber...and this one can cook...and you get to eat your mistakes, although i'm sure you would never admit they were mistakes, just unplanned surprises!!...cheers..

joey


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ashes:  There's a capped, 2" nipple on the bottom of the pit.  I put a bucket under the nipple, remove the cap, flip the charcoal grate up and against the pit's back, then use a small shovel to rake the ashes  through the nipple and into the bucket. 

Next time I'll show the plating, but there's not much artistry to putting a big hunka hunka meat in the middle of a plate and some veg on the side. 

BDL


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. Another thing that aggravates the ever-loving bageebies out of me. What I'm good at, I'm really good at. What I don't know so well, I haven't got a clue. This time it's brisket. I got a whole brisket, 17-lbs. I started trimming it out, and it was like having 50/50 meat and trim. That was the first kink in my colon. Next, I didn't know what I was doing. Was I supposed to cut all that globulous fat off? WTF? Is it supposed to have that much fat? Should I have kept some fat? When I was done trimming, I cut it into sizable pieces to fit into the smoker. I think it's actually this one here:



Not that it makes any difference. It's not mine. I didn't pay for it or the meat. LOL. Good attitude. Anyway, what I'm looking for is for someone to walk me through trimming out a whole brisket for the smoker. Any of you all know what you're talking about? I could really use an education. As per usual, _*TIA*_ for your responses.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

17 lbs is a big brisket, even for a packer cut.

Some people don't trim at all, some people trim down to red, some people trim somewhere in the middle. I'm in the second group pretty much. I cut the fat cap on one side down to no more than 1/8" -- which usually means right down to the meat, with little pieces of fat here and there.

Don't try and trim the knob of fat which sticks out the side and runs between the deckle (aka point) and the flat.

Ideally, the brisket should be kept as one piece, rather than being separated into flat and point. It cooks juicier as one piece. "Juice" is a very big deal.

Most top competitors are injecting their briskets these days. I stopped competing eons ago, and didn't inject back then, but do now.

Most good cooks wrap their briskets -- usually in aluminum foil -- when the brisket hits the stall. If you're not wrapping, you're making your life much more difficult.

It's a good idea to keep some sort of water pan in your smoker -- especially in a drafty one like yours.

Barbecue is one of many games where "entry level" equipment is actually the most difficult to use. Unless I miss my guess, you're using something barbecue guys call an ECB -- which is short for _El Cheapo Brinkmann_. It's about as crummy a 'q as you can get, and still do a passable job. It's very drafty and fire control is not easy. If you're interested in smoking, and can afford something better, I strongly suggest you do so. The WSM (Weber Smokey Mountain) comes in two sizes. They're the best reasonably priced smokers available -- with the possible exception of their Canadian clone.

Do yourself a favor and avoid the small offsets sold by the big box stores. They may be better than the ECB, but they still make things much harder than necessary unless you do major tweaking. And even then... I used one or another small offset for decades. Trust me.

Finally, read this. It's a very detailed set of instructions which will not only help you to cook an excellent brisket, but give you enough information to put your own spin on it after you've done it a couple of times.

BDL


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

New smokers this year. We are going with a new design. Cans are going on top of each other. Center will be perforated with a v shaped piece of steel under to

run off drip. We can easily fit 8 butts or equivalent ,stacking from left to right on the re-bar as it goes up. We ran a test and were really pleased with the consistent temp

for a long period of time. The whole area of the can on the bottom had an easy time breathing with a few vents and a large dog house opening on the bottom for the wood..

The apple is all cut and we moved all the mesquite to a feeder near a tank. It will have a full soak. We decided we would not have the apple pit this year. It is just to dry. So we will use whole apple for our heat source and mesquite splits for smoke. All that's left is to have a neighbor tack some handles for the top can and a collar around the top of the bottom so the upper can can be removed easily.

Steve R. requested that I send him the results on the Dove poppers.

The ranch is a few hours away. For me, like other have said, it all about being with people. I get excited because I am going to spend 1-2? days with the local people. They are such

hard working people and so well grounded. I am fascinated to sit and chat about their way of life, stories of old, their traditions, beliefs and faith. The boys will use my real name

in the beginning of the day, and in the evening after (shorty) gets out the clear that he has hidden previously, my name slowly becomes (hey city-boy!).

I will share pics.

pan

"" "

"


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The only little problem here .......... is that I know about, and how to, smoke and/or BBQ. What I DO NOT KNOW about is the piece of meat. I don't know the story about briskets. I don't/didn't understand how to properly trim it out. I tried best I could to, as _*Panini*_ says, "scalp" it as much as I could. I also tried to cut it along what I thought was a sorta muscle separation. This was not my brisket, I was doing a job, for a paying customer. He was aware that I didn't have much of a clue, he still wanted whatever skills I did bring to the table. As for the ECB ... again, it was not mine, it was someone else's. I understand what you both told me about smokers/grills/ and such. I have at home one of the few rare _Webber Gas Kettles_. I have modified it a little bit and now use it as my smoker. It works very nicely. I'm pretty sure I spoke about it somewhere in a different thread. OK now. I've read both responses 3x each. LOL. Very interesting. Please though, tell me more about this hunk'o'meat. _*TIA.*_


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I knew I was not understand.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

Actually the point when removed from the flat after cooking and tossed back on to cook further is the best part of the brisket. I cooked a whole 17 pound flat on my Klose, at 225 it took 24 hours. Way to long for me these days! I prefer a small 12 pound brisket, only trim a little of the fat, put on the pit fat side down for most of the cook (my Traeger has a hot spot in the center, fat protects the meat), and cook until it hits 195ish and the meat is tender.

Panini using galvanized metal in contact with fire releases toxic fumes that can settle on the food and when breathed cause health problems.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ice,

I'm still not completely clear about what you are and are not asking. But I'll try.

The story about briskets:

A packer cut beef brisket is really two muscles. As a cut of beef, they're called point and flat. The point is also called the deckle.

The point has significantly more fat in it -- which can be but isn't always marbling. Usually it includes big pieces of fat. As panini said, the flat is usually preferred for most purposes because it's leaner.

The flat is the muscle which does most of the breathing. Even wagyu, CAB, etc., animals' briskets get a lot of exercise. That means they need special care to get them tender enough to be pleasant. Most people think "low and slow" is the only way to go about it, but plenty of guys -- including succesful circuit competitors -- go "hot and fast."

I've experimented with starting on the low side of low. around 225, and bumped to the low side of hot, around 275, to help limit the stall. It works, but I feel you get a better product by using a relatively steady temp.

Barbecued brisket must be cooked "beyond well done and into tender." When raw meat proteins get hit by heat, they contract and twist, but if you keep cooking them under the right conditions, they relax again (called denaturing). Usually that means an internal temp over 190 and a long rest. In addition, some proteins -- collagens -- melt when taken beyond a certain internal under the right conditions, and sort of "baste" the meat internally. The denaturing process accounts for why a piece of meat as seemingly lean as a brisket can be made moist, tender and rich.

The advantage to trimming down to the meat is seasoned bark on both sides. That is, except where the point and flat shield one another -- but there's not much you can do about that.

You have a range of trim options. Some people believe a healthy fat cap helps keep the brisket moist. There's no agreement whether the brisket should be cooked with the cap up, down or flipped part of the way through. In my opinion, very little to no fat is the right amount. You can trim right down to the meat and still get a juicy brisket if you do some other things -- the most important of which are: 

MEAT MATTERS. The meat's quality matters -- a great deal. I'm not saying you can't make a juicy, tasty and tender brisket from a cheap piece of meat. But _everything else being equal_, a better piece of meat will give you a better result. Every time. Important brisket comps are won with BTC, CAB, Prime and Wagyu. Average rolled Choice doesn't usually show well, at least not comparatively. A 17# brisket _usually_ indicates a large and older animal, possibly not a steer, and most likely a bad choice from the giddyup. And yes, we can stipulate the choice was the client's.
DON'T CUT PIECES. Briskets cook better as a single piece, not cut in pieces. It's generally a mistake to do any butchering beyond trimming. If you must cut, keep your pieces as large as possible. Larger makes the denaturing process work better and more evenly.
INJECT. It makes things so much easier and better, I have to question why someone would not inject. That doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons not to, but they're thin on the ground.
FIRE MANAGEMENT. Don't allow too much variance. Brisket is not forgiving.
NO PEEKING. Keep the pit closed through all but the last part of the cook. That includes not checking on appearance and not mopping. You already know this.
WRAP. Wrap when the brisket hits the stall. Include some moisture in the package. Yes, this will soften the bark a little, but you can bring it most of the way back by unwrapping. I don't wrap the brisket loose, I use a sheet pan with a donut screen, with a mix of wine, stock and seasoning under the screen, and wrap the pan. Some people -- including (fwiw) Myron Mixon -- use a hotel pan with a steamer insert. Back in the day, old-fashioned pitmasters (including me) used to say: "wrapping is braising and braising ain't barbecue." Whether there's any truth to the statement, you get a much better brisket if you wrap. Remember what I said about "right conditions" when I was talking about the denaturing process? That's where wrapping comes in.
UNWRAP. Try and time the last 45 to 60 minutes and finish cooking unwrapped. This will help restore some texture to the bark. You can lower the heat if necessary. If you feel compelled to mop, that's the time.
HOLD. Brisket requires a long rest. It's part of the denaturing process, and a couple of hours is a reasonable minimum. You can hold longer without hurting it. I hold in a cooler, wrapped in cling wrap. This does soften the bark a little, but that's a small price to pay for the good it does for the brisket's interior.
Tight trim or not, you should do all of these.

Equipment can make a lot of difference. ECB's are notoriously difficult to manage, somehow managing to combine overall draftiness with a poorly ventilated fire pan. Additionally, their thin steel shells provide very little insulation and are very sensitive to weather. The most common ECB mod is not to wrap any part of the pit, but to drill out the fire pan so it breathes better. I know the ECB wasn't yours, but a lot of people do use them and they might as well have the information.

_A word to Panini: _ Making your own pit out of whatever and making it work is "puttering," of the highest order, a thing respected by all men especially those of us of a certain age. I salute you. Buying an ECB is just a tragic mistake.

After the brisket is rested, the muscles can be separated and should be further portioned into pieces which are easily managed for slicing.

You can do a lot to compensate for a lot of brisket faults by how you slice and dip. If the brisket is tough, slice it very, very thin -- 1/8" if you can manage. If it's overdone and wants to fall apart, slice it thick -- about 1/2".

Make something like a butter-finished "_au jus_." If the brisket's dry use it generously to moisten the slices. If the brisket's nicely moist, use it sparingly to get a shine on the meat. FWIW, my dip and injection are usually one and the same; and usually a mix of beef stock, red wine, Worcestershire with some fairly mild seasoning (including thyme, fresh onion and fresh garlic) reduced, sieved, and butter finished. The idea is to lubricate the beef while making it taste more like what it is. It's not "barbecue sauce." A tomato based barbecue sauce is expected in most parts of the country, and should be served on the side or ladled on at the diner's request.

Given that it was a bunk piece of meat to begin with and a bunk cooker, I'm not sure I would have taken the commission without a lot of caveats and a good deal of pessimism. There's only so much you can do.

This takes us back to the original brisket questions. Ice, what happened with yours to make you start asking? It couldn't have been an unalloyed triumph.

BDL


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I because i

*Hey Ice, stop laughing!!!!*


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey _*BDL*_ .......... great response. I'll get back to you when I have enough time to answer as detailed as you ask.

As for the _"garbage can grills"_ ... interesting. I've seen and used grills made from 55-gal. drums and beer kegs cut in half. I've seen competition guys use them too. I thought at the time that nothing else I've ever used could get as hot and hold as much heat as a full-sized beer keg. That idea disappeared after the first time I used one of those big ceramic jobbies. Anyway, my grill is a $108, inc. asmbl., otd. *Char-Broil*. That will be my brand-of-faith for a long time. My "smoker" is, like I've said before, a somewhat modified _"Webber Gas Kettle"_. I'm happy with that too. I can't for any good reason understand why they stopped making those.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

Galvanizing is okay as long as it isn't going to be in direct contact with fire where the temps will get to the breakdown point of the zinc.

BDL I have cooked some very good briskets without wrapping until resting time. Takes patience and good fire management though.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mary,

You're right. Very right.

That you can cook a good brisket without wrapping is not in question, and I certainly didn't mean to imply contrariwise. For that matter, you can do fantastic brisket open pit -- it just takes a lot more effort.

I've smoked a lot of good great briskets without wrapping as well. I've been doing this for a long time, including catering barbecue in the early seventies -- starting with working for Willie Walker -- so perhaps have smoked even more naked briskets than you have. We used to sneer at wrapping back then, but we were wrong.

Wrapping makes things faster and surer with almost no down side -- slightly softer bark, maybe. Injecting is much the same. It does a lot of positive things, and nothing negative. So unless you have a reason, why not do them? Especially since what we're looking for in this thread is "surefire."

As it happens I cooked my last brisket -- first on my new smoker -- without injecting or wrapping, and with a temperature bump from 225 to 275 at the stall to boot, just to help get a feel for the rig and my new CAB supplier's goods. It came out fine. The next one will be injected, cooked at a steady 275, wrapped at the stall if there is one, or at 160 if there isn't (usually isn't at 270 and up); and be better still.

BDL


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*OK. Here I go w/ brisket episode .................*_

My "Private Chef" business is for 2 people ~ 200 people. A particular client that I have cooked many times for asked me to get him a number of meats, including two(2) briskets. As it was, I took Mrs.Client with me to the store so that she could pay _(that makes it easier for me)_. She sees the _hunks'o'meat_ on the cart and does a big _"WTF?"_ kinda thing. Between the both of us we can't get Mr.Client on the phone, so she makes an _"executive decision"_ and says only one(1). Now I don't know from briskets, so I figure it's easier to trim out nice pieces from a bigger cut _(OK, maybe now I understand how wrong that was, TY)_. I get this slab on the table and it's like even huger than it was at the store. I spent what seemed like an hour trimming off fat _(Mr.Client wanted down to the meat)_. I'm getting paid, I do what I'm asked. Mr.Client lets me know that the whole brisket ain'te going in in one(1) piece, so I gotta cut it up. After scalping off all the fat I disconnected the point from the flat. I cut the point into two(2) points and the flat into four(4) flats. I did sorta know that that was kinda sacrilegious, but I was still doing what was asked. Anyway, all-in-all, my _*"maiden brisket voyage"*_ was a real experience. I came here to maybe learn something so that it doesn't happen again, at least not on my dime. Do you dig my story now? I hope I explained myself well.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Dig?  Yes.  Extremely. Knew it was something you got pinned into, because of all the wriggling and circumlocution.  Had it been something you could control, you're mensch enough to have just spit it out.  There had to be someone/something else, and talking about it seemed to be complicated by your desire not to be seen as an excuse maker. 

That's why I asked.

BDL

You're obviously not an excuse maker or finger pointer; and no one sees that you way.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

3


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

First would


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

First w


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

First


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

this is a test.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you grade on the curve?

BDL


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## quetex (Oct 3, 2010)

ChefBillyB said:


> Still don't see what the big deal is in BBQ/Smoking. I could see BBQ in the South, people didn't have much money, they had to use the least tender cuts of meat. Does anyone really think the people in Mexico would be eating all the guts and head of the Cow if they were offered the prime cuts. They made something out of whatever the rancher threw out. I raise my own Black Angus Cows, I would rather eat the prime cuts and taste the real flavor of the meat................When I get a craving for smoke, I'll eat some jerky..............The bone in Prime Rib goes in the oven at noon........................ChefBillyB


WOW! Thats has to be the funniest comment I've read on any forum in a long time.


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## quetex (Oct 3, 2010)

panini said:


> New smokers this year. We are going with a new design. Cans are going on top of each other. Center will be perforated with a v shaped piece of steel under to
> 
> run off drip. We can easily fit 8 butts or equivalent ,stacking from left to right on the re-bar as it goes up. We ran a test and were really pleased with the consistent temp
> 
> ...


Very very cool, look forward to the story and the pictures.


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## quetex (Oct 3, 2010)

BDL, not sure what your exactly looking for in the bbq forums but below are the forums I frequent. Lots of good advice on all these forums but keep in mind that (apparently) you are a experienced bbq cook as well as a chef so your knowledge and experience may make these forums boring. BBQing has only recently exploded as a sport. so alot of the people coming onto the forums are basically newbies looking for advice and tips. When I started cooking competitively in the mid 90's I had to drive 6 to 8 hours just to get to a competition, Now days there are a few every weekend in my backyard. As far as wood and sizing I bought a mitre saw and use it to chop the logs to the desired size to fit whatever cooker I'm using at the time.Better than a chainsaw anyday imo for sizing the cooking wood, want to cut down a tree different story. I have had more bbq pits/cookers than anybody I have ever met icluding a klose and the pellet grills too as well as built several on my own. Every grill/cooker has its own idiosyncracies and or "personality" I call it. Will take a few runs and cooks to figure it out, I like to call that "practice" from a competitors point of view.

Academys around here sell some really good wood from http://woodinc.com/, guess we're spoiled around here. It comes in different sizes and flavors , highly recommend them.

I've looked at a lot of forums too but most are regionally or locally based so they dont get alot of action and its usually just what people cook around there.

http://texasbbqrub.com/ This forum is okay as long as your in love with the rubs that they sell, if you even mention another brand or spice you'll be banned immediately. Kinda a close knit clickish group imo but still bunch of nice guys and some good reading and tips from time to time.

http://texasbbqforum.com/ This is a newer and my personal favorite texas forum and is taking off fast with members joining from all over the world lately, would love to have you come over and give us some tricks from a chefs perspective. Oh and they dont mind if you talk about other rubs,spices and sauces even though the owner has his own rub/spice/sauce company too.Good stuff imo, http://www.sucklebusters.com/

http://www.barbecuenews.com/calendar/index.asp This is a "national" forum but even so it has very little action, just a couple of guys that repond to everything and of course they "know it all"

http://www.bbqbug.com/ Seems like a good regional forum with alot of good competiton discussion but again mostly regional.

A few good pics of cooking Q on my FB team page if ya care to look, maybe some of the others will get a kick out of the cabrito. http://www.facebook.com/SmokinLonestar?closeTheater=1

Hope you guys "like" my page.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Quetex.

I've rediscovered _BBQ Central_, and while it's not incredibly active -- mostly guys posting pictures of their own cooking and admiring others' -- it's one of my two old 'Q homes. Lot of people I've known for a long time. Nice to be back. Many -- if not most -- if not all -- the forum members are people who couldn't stand BBQNews.

The other old home, _was _BBQNews. To a large extent it's where I developed the BDL persona, started writing beginner oriented recipes, etc. Based on that, you can probably guess I used to be one of the know-it-alls -- catching a lot of small offset as well as basic cooking questions. There's a very long and involved back story, but the people who run the site decided they'd rather have BOS than BDL. I did look in recently, and your take seems right on. Too bad. It used to be a very good, very active site.

http://texasbbqforum.com/ sounds pretty interesting. I'll take a look. Thanks. Hope y'all aren't too California-averse, I'm all about the California.

The Backwoods forum is veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy slow, but good for equipment-centric questions. I get the feeling it's members and mods would like it to be more but don't quite know how to make it happen.

*This place ain't so bad, either.* There seems to be enough interest to try out a "Smokin' Grillin' & All-Round 'Q Thread" if Nicko wants. The question is would it languish once current CT members ran out of questions, or would it attract new members -- like the "Knife" sub thread in "Equipment Reviews." I'm not going to hazard a guess.

I make my own rubs and sauces, BIG part of the fun.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Huddler has implemented the Groups feature now. This is a way to create discussion group about a particular topic that is still bound by the rules of the site. So still no politics.

I've created the Barbecue and Grilling Group and it is ready for your participation.

http://www.cheftalk.com/groups/show/1/barbecue-and-grilling


MaryB said:


> See if they could add a BBQ forum here. This place would have the wide variety of people and places. State that BBQ is the art of low and slow cooking(there are some hot and fast techniques but I rarely see a neophyte try to use them) and not grilling hamburgers or hotdogs.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Will new posts still show up under New Posts?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Phil, if I joined Cheftalk today, and was navigating the site to develop a feel for what's available, how would I know there was such a thing as a groups feature? It doesn't seem to show up anywhere.

By the same token, how, except by linking from this thread, would I be able to go back to it?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

New posts show up in new posts, activity feeds and that sort of thing for all groups regardless of membership.

There is a groups link on everyone's profile. Any group you join will also be linked there.

Informing new users will be part of the welcoming mods/greeters jobs.


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## tinkering (Jan 13, 2012)

just for the record , barbecue as we now call it has been traced back to the west Indies , and is  thought to be at least 2000 years old

 there is a great deal of secrecy when it comes to todays sauce , but the way its cooked is simply a matter of personnal choice and taste

there is no single best way of doing it , when i ran my barbecue joint i used propane for heat and wood for the smoke and would challenge anyone

to prove to me they could tell the difference from mine and an all wood/ charcoal cooked meat . folks must have liked it because the proof was in the cash register!!!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Instead of a group, it might be better to change the name of the Camp Cooking thread to "Outdoor Cooking" or something similar and open it to smoking, grilling, "barbecue" (whatever the word means" in general, beach cooking, etc.  As it stands, the Camp Cooking thread only gets a few posts and hits a month.  Might as well give it reason to live. 

Similarly the Wine and Food pairings could be opened to include all sorts of beverages -- including hard liquors, cocktails, and cooking spirits.   Whenever the subjects come up in other forums they get a lot of play.  Besides there's only so much you can say to someone about particular wines if you're not standing in the same liquor store. 

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Instead of a group, it might be better to change the name of the Camp Cooking thread to "Outdoor Cooking"_.....

I'd vote for that. It makes perfect sense.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_There is a groups link on everyone's profile. Any group you join will also be linked there._

Really?

I hardly ever go to my own profile, so, rather than relying on memory, I just went there. I guess I'm not part of everyone, because there is not a word about groups anywhere on the page.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Also, the lifeblood of CT is new members.  A forum which can get google hits will bring more people than a Group.  For example, I've received a lot of PMs from new members when we've had long running barbecue threads; and get dozens of new-member PMs a month regarding knives. 

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Groups get just as much Google indexing and hits from the searches.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I also want to say that the group idea is to test the waters and interest for topics that aren't as mainstream in interest generally. If a groups traffic warrants it, it would be logical to upgrade it to a full forum.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_Hey *PHatch*_ ... it is what it is. Never-mind the nay-sayers. Just do what you do, and everything will work out. You got it this far, just take your time and everything will be _*AG*_ in the end.

_Hey *Nay-sayers*_ ... give the guy some room to do what he's gotta do. _Don't Worry ... Be Happy._ Damnitt.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

One of you coffee lovers should start a coffee group.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

(I deleted my unnecessary comment).


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The default page for groups is www.cheftalk.com/groups The link from your profile page doesn't appear until you join some groups it turns out.


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## scubadoo97 (Nov 7, 2011)

I learned a lot about smoking and BBQ from http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/


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## oldpro (Nov 23, 2009)

I've gone to several of the BBQ forums, but keep going back to texasbbqrub.com.  I went there initially because I heard they had a good product line and wanted to try one of their rubs.  They have a lot of competition cookers that are largely regional, but seem to know their stuff. 

Speaking of competitions, the upcoming Houston rodeo in February has a huge bbq cookoff in conjunction with the rodeo.  It is one of the BIG deals on the cookoff circuit, and if memory serves it draws like 35,000 people.  I attended a couple of times when I had friends competing, but the logistics of parking, drinking, eating, and wall-to-wall people are a bit much for me today.  You could sample some outstanding food, though.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

For the first time in quite some time I logged into National BBQ News [ http://www.barbecuenews.com ] and was somewhat surprised to see my username and password still worked - they didn't kick me out! What I wasn't surprised to see was that it was still pretty much the same group of good ol' boys yakkin' about the same things as I recall from back when. It also reminded me I didn't smoke one brisket at all in 2011. I'll have to remedy that in 2012.

mjb.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi BDL!

Hope the BackWoods is treatin' ya well!

Pork shoulder, homemade andouille, spares, pork belly (smoked, then finished braising in oven with apricots and peach schnapps liquid...then finished on the grill) and hot dogs...oh the lovely Nathan's Hotdogs that were cooked along with the finishing pork belly and andouille on the grill...slathered with pork fat and rub...yum. Although you can't see the belly or spares underneath the sausage.

I do have some leftovers, I think some gumbo is in my future!



On the subject of fuel. Lately I've been using briquettes, it just seems to give me a nice consistent long burn. I've been using lump for quite some time, but I'm not disappointed with the results from briquettes and my usual smokin' woods (of which I'm on a white oak and alder kick lately)

Dan.


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## chefmasterjohn (Feb 28, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> I went over and joined the Smoke Ring Forums on thetincook's recommendation in another thread, have been lurking and read through lots of threads, but don't see much to interest me. Curious as to what Tin thinks is good -- if he's reading this.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> ...


Hey thats awesome I am also a member of the Smoke Ring.. They have some really interesting and useful threads.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

My BWS Fatboy: Treating us very right. The only fire management issue I have is getting the splits slowly pre-heated so that they don't burn too fast and throw off a lot of white smoke. I like to have blue smoke going by the time I get the meat in there, but so far -- it's not something I can do consistently. It happens, but not quick enough. On the other hand, meats from the Fatboy are sweeter and more delicately smoked than the product I was getting from my highly modified, AfterBurner fired Bar B Chef; so go figure. 

Fuel: I'm burning hardwood splits (oak, cherry, and/or peach) on top of best quality hardwood lump. The charcoals which work best for us are the mesquites I get from CalChar in their "consumer" size 50# (!) bags and Lazzari Mesquite. We also use (larger, fireplace size) oak splits from CalChar to fuel our grill. I can't say that these are the best choices, or better than a lot of others; but they work very well for us.

The Fatboy gets more than 10 hours from a medium temp burn (235-250) with the Cal-Char and a skosh less than that with Lazzari. I smoke briskets a little hotter, in the 275 - 290 range, to avoid the stall; and have never had any problem finishing a cook when I've fully loaded the fire pan. If I did super long smokes, say in the 18 hour range, that might be a problem -- but I don't.

Bar B Que Forums: I'm persona non grata at the BBQ News Forum because -- as far as I can tell -- I made BOS feel bad 6 years ago by comparing him to a toy-poodle after enduring several months of his yapping, ankle-biting obsession with me. So, even if I were interested in going back to hearing the same guys say the same things, I couldn't. For one reason or another, I still haven't found any other place I like. 

There's not a lot of grilling/smoking posting going on here in CT, but what there is, "is cherce." It'll do.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

+1 on the Barbecue FAQ at Eagle Forums with the proviso that -- in internet terms -- it's ancient, and the state of the art, relative to some things anyway, has advanced. In any case, if you're just starting out or just getting serious it's well worth reading. 

And...

Thanks for the forum recommendation. I'll check it out.

BDL


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## garth beaumont (Jun 7, 2012)

Good stuff ~


boar_d_laze said:


> Ice,
> 
> I'm still not completely clear about what you are and are not asking. But I'll try.
> 
> ...


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