# Msg?



## treehugger057 (Mar 6, 2009)

So I recently made an effort to remove MSG from my food! Now I never added msg to anything! I have been reading labels a lot more and to may shock it is in everything! Their are so many names out there for this stuff! I picked up a product clearly marked w/ a sticker saying " No msg in our product" turned over to the check myself and their it is hyrdolyzed veg protien. Their are about 20 different names for this stuff! 

Has anyone really had to take this out for health reasons? I would like any thoughts you may have to help point me in a good direction. 

Thanks tyler


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Most people do not know what MSG is or where it comes from an how it is made. The MSG of today and the original Agimoto powder are quite different. I did a thesis on MSG when I graduated college and it is interesting. It's properties affect everyone differently.
It won't kill you, and there are much worse things in our food supply.:chef:


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

A wild guess, but is Agimoto powder you just mentioned above is the origin of MSG? It sounds Japanese and I seem to recall Japanese as the one which had the word for the taste of this...uh...controversial substance.

Also, may you give some insight on your research? That seems very interesting and it's exactly the opposite of what's been popular now.


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## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

I dont have a problem with MSG. The Chinese have been using it it for centuries. It may not be good for you, but neither is salt. I saw it recently on sale as Chinese taste powder. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but its a far eastern taste enhancer. And has been since the year dot


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

Indeed so. Here in Indonesia it's almost as common as salt and pepper.

I find it rather cheating, though. Almost everything with MSG will taste good / pleasant to the tastebuds, regardless of actual taste or techniques. I've been to so many place where the food is all...depending on MSG, much to my annoyance. And it's PACKED.

And I've heard people saying some food "not delicious" or "not flavorful enough" just because it didn't have much MSG. D:


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I'd search Google beore I did anything about MSG!

The FDA cites it as GRAS, Generally Recognized As Safe.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Some one pass the Accent!


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I am allergic to msg so I have to be extremely careful when I buy groceries and also when we eat out. In my home cooking I sub Mrs Dash for Accent and I make sure when we go out to eat if the establisment has anything containing msg and I stay away from those items if I have to.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Experiments were done with MSG in the 60s. The use of MSG was attributed to an ailment called chinese syndrome. Which in some people was diagnosed as a pending stroke or heart attack, It started affecting the left arm and gave it pain and a feeling of numbness. Feeding groups of people MSG and other groups with a placebo did not produce any firm results. Some people showed a reaction some did not as did some on the placebo. Agimotto started out being made from fermented seeweed,which some may have been alergic to. Today it is in most cases made from fermented beets. In one respect it could be refered to as a natural food, because it is naturaly in the foods. In my own experiments with it , I did find that foods with added MSG went bad faster. And it tended to make people extremely thirstyThe Chines restaurants stopped cooking with it because of public opinion, but most of all because they saved money as it was not cheap. When it came here in the 50s as agimotto it was about $5.00 a pound..:chef:


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi treehugger,
Hopefully I can help you to understand MSG and why its in so many things and what the real replacers that are used in foods today are...

1. Hydrolyzed vegetable protien is NOT MSG!! HVP is NOT used to replace MSG it is something all together different and has different uses in food(ie to replace meats and meat flavors in vegetarian/vegan foods, as a cost reducer, and as a flavor enhancer for cheeses and mushrooms.) What you are confusing HVP with is AYE or "autolyzed yeast extract". They are not the same, AYE is used as an MSG replacer in many food products, particularly snack seasonings. It is based on the chemical stripping of the Yeast to autolyze it to act as an MSG flavored product. Several different types of yeasts are used, Brewers, Torula and Sacchramoyses are the 3 most commonly used types of yeast used to replace MSG, but they are not intended to "fool" people into thinking that they are MSG. AYE is a whole different subject that is currently being debated within the FDA as whether is can be labeled as natural or not. 

2. MSG has many benefits and is actually healthier for you than salt. It is used in MUCH lower doses than salt, has lower sodium, and is a better flavor enhancer than salt, thats why the Chinese and Japanese have been using it for centuries in Soy Sauce and on its own instead of salt.

3. It is ILLEGAL and against FDA and USDA regulations to falsely label ANY food items for exactly what they are. If MSG is in a food product IT MUST be labeled as such or the manufacturer would face ENORMOUS fines and possible shut down as well as a system wide recall of all foods that were falsely labeled.

4. Salt is insanely bad for you unless it is used in low levels and if you read labels than you know that it isnt. MSG is actually healthier for you from a sodium stand point and its a natural product but because ppl didnt know about it in the 70's and 80's it got a bad rap and ppl began to develop and "allergy" to it. All MSG contains is sodium and glutamic acid in its most basic form.

If you would like I could breakdown MSG for you so you can understand what it is in comparison to salt or you could just look it up.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Are you allergic to salt or glutamic acid?


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

never used it, never will.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

what if I told u I could reduce your sodium intake by 40%, do it naturally and at no added cost would u do it?


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

i would ask how...


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

By replacing salt with MSG. Lower usage levels and naturally lower sodium levels without the use of potassium chloride or magnesium which is what is used in reduced sodium foods.


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

i was trying to research this topic online last night, but seems all the results just go in circles... i would like to know how many top chefs, or which high-end restaurants use msg.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

You may not find too many in the US, mostly in China, Japan and parts of the UK. We have caused such a negative image of it in the US that ppl automatically run in the other direction when they hear it even mentioned in food. The only places you will find it used regularly in the US is in snack manufacturing and commercial sauce making.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

The results go in circles because there is a lot of miss-information. AFAIK no one is clinically "allergic" to MSG. At least according to the physicians I have asked about this. Some may have a reaction to MSG such as getting flush etc. However a reaction and an "allergy" are not the same thing. I'm not sure an allergy test for MSG even exists. Your body produces MSG so if you were "allergic" to MSG you would be in deep kim chee. 
A food allergy is an abnormal response to food from the immune system. The immune system is not responsible for the symptoms of a food intolerance, allthough the symptoms may resemble those of a food allergy. Less than 1% of the population has a food allergy.
There are those on medications and who have other clinical allergies that do need to be careful about consuming foods that can result in a reaction for them. 
A food reaction, like gas can give you enough discomfort and pain to land you in the ER, however it's not going to have the same potential health consequences as an allergic reaction.


"It is ILLEGAL and against FDA and USDA regulations to falsely label ANY food items for exactly what they are"

That in and of itself may be true but there can be some slick marketing. Like meats labled "nitrate free". Read the label again and check for celery juice or powder. 
I don't know about all hydrolyzed vegetable protein but hydrolyzed soy protein is far worse than MSG. It can be made with sulfuric acid or genetically altered soy and has carcinogenic properties. You would probably have to consume mass quantities for that to be an issue but a lot of this frankenfood is in many products that we consume. 
Both MSG and nitrates are naturally occurring chemicals that get way too much press compared the genetically altered ingredients in many products.


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

msg is like steroids for food... or any 'performance enhancing' drug...


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Nitrates are totally different and arent added to food, they are a biproduct of the smoking and curing process.

The point I was telling the OP was that HVP's are not MSG, are not MSG replacers and arent advertised as such.

HVP's come in many different forms, from Corn Gluten, Wheat Gluten, Soy Protien ect. They are all chemically stripped and "hydrolyzed" to mimic other flavors. *I dont condone using them,* but when Vegans and Vegetarians want meat flavors(if you want a meat flavor just eat meat) that is a vegan way to get them and as of today the FDA and USDA still lets manufacturers call them "Natural".

I personally would rather use MSG, and I keep it at my home, but in the US the mass majority is afraid. Wait about 3 months and you will see that the potato chip market is going to take a HUGE hit with the release of the Achrylamide Study and its carcenogenic properties speaking of carcenogens. The FDA is going to put you into a mass panic and have everyone throwing away their potato chips because they are going to tell you that they will give you cancer. What they arent going to tell you is that the levels of achrylamide in chips is the same as it is in a loaf of bread. Are you going to stop buying bread now?

We could pick apart everything that is manufactured in a plant and find something wrong with it, but what it boils down to is *most* things are OK for you in moderation. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but that is true in all things. Good example, I quit smoking 2 years ago, emptied all the sweets and snacks out of the house before I did this and replaced them with carrots, celery and fruits and still managed to put on 35 lbs. I ate healthier at that point in my life than I ever had as an adult, but I over did it with fruits and veggies that were high in natural non reducing sugars, and carbs. Good for you but too much is too much.

Iconoclast, MSG is a naturally occuring product, it is no more a "performance enhancer" than salt is. PPL need to stop thinking its a chemical that is man made.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I hope no one is confusing nitrates and MSG. Celery and other vegetables can contain Nitrates. Celery juice and powder is often added to to skip around the FDA rules so they can advertise nitrate and nitrite free or "all Natural". Your body converts nitrates (Beets, lettuce, greens) to nitrites. Veggies can also give infants nitrite poisoning in some cases (google infant- spinach- nitrate). In either event the bit about false labeling and the USDA is subject to interpretation (IMO) and that was my only point. The example being the natural occurring nitrates in celery that is used in "nitrate free" food. There is a LOT of manipulation in mass produced food and marketing. I have much bigger things to worry about other than nitrates or MSG. I think most of us do.
BTW the Acrylamide yest is already out.

Survey Data on Acrylamide in Food: Individual Food Products


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

DuckFat, The acrylamide info you grabbed is the initial research. They are about to release the findings of the actual 5 year study done by the FDA, USDA and the initial Swedes that found it and how it *effects ppl directly thru normal eating habits, not lab rats*. This is going to rock the food world, I just came back from a conference and series of classes and this was one of the topics we discussed at length. The snack food and baking industries are currently on "red alert" waiting patiently to see the final report. If they release that acrylamide is thought to be a very highly carenogenic substance with direct correlation to several types of cancer the food industry in general is going to be in for a major shake up. We should know something before the end of the year.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up! I will watch out for that.


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## treehugger057 (Mar 6, 2009)

awesome amount of info!chefhow thanks for the detailed reply! I must admit most of the research I was looking at for the effects of msg have been lab rat test! So I am anxiously awaiting the new study! Also thanks for the clear up of hvp! 

As a parent I would prefer my children not to eat this! As a chef I would prefer not to cheat my patrons. I want the method of preperation and the quality of the food to reflect my dedication to the food they are eating! Just my humble opinion! 

I really just wanted to see how others felt! 

p.s. thanks for all the great post

tyler


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

Umami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cstanford (Jul 3, 2008)

Monosodium glutamate is one of several forms of glutamic acid found in foods, in large part because glutamic acid is pervasive in nature, being an amino acid. Glutamic acid and its salts can also be present in a wide variety of other additives, including hydrolyzed vegetable proteins, autolyzed yeast, hydrolyzed yeast, yeast extract, soy extracts, and protein isolate, any one of which may appear as "spices" or "natural flavorings." The food additives disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate are usually used along with monosodium glutamate-containing ingredients, and provide a likely indicator of the presence of monosodium glutamate in a product. For this reason, the FDA considers labels such as "No MSG" or "No Added MSG" to be misleading if the food contains ingredients that are sources of free glutamate, such as hydrolyzed protein.
In 1993, the FDA proposed adding the phrase "(contains glutamate)" to the common or usual names of certain protein hydrolysates that contain substantial amounts of glutamate.
In the 2004 version of his book, _On Food and Cooking_, food scientist Harold McGee states that "[after many studies], toxicologists have concluded that MSG is a harmless ingredient for most people, even in large amounts."


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

CStanford, you cant label HVP, TVP, AYE, Torula Yeast, Brewers Yeast or Soy Protien Isolates as anything but what they are, and they definitely can not be labeled as spices or natural flavors. All of the above mentioned must be labeled according to label identity laws fromm either 05 or 06 which is when the great natural debates began. Mertaise or disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate often are labeled with MSG but are also used with sea salt to help and mimic the flavor and function of MSG. Mertaise is also being used less and less because of its label declarations. 

HVP's usually use a combination of Soy protien, corn gluten and wheat gluten with salt to mimic and replace meat flavors in meat analogs, they all must be broken out on the labels.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Most experiments back in the 60s were done with MSG given in what they thought was a simple form. Cold and mixed in soda. This is how most testing was done. In the beginning what was never thought of was the high heat of wok cooking that MSG would be subject to. To this day it has never really been established. For more info there is a monosodium glut. association located somewhere in Georgia


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

MSG is pure poison for the body. It causes may health problems. Check out the research of Dr. Blaylock.In small doses it is not harmful but most food manufactures put msg in their food as an additive ingredient that stimulates a person appetite causing them to eat more because it keeps the hunger switch on past the point of satiation. Most restaurant use it in their food because of this.If a person were to add up the amount of MSG they consume in a day the amount a staggering. Today some consumers will not buy products with msg so the food companies have resorted to hiding it under different names. I have personal restricted MSG from my diet and have see a significant weight loss and my appetite has decreased.Scientist use MSG as a means to fatten rats that don't normally get fat. by injecting MSG into them at birth so they can study diabetes. Here is a partial list of symptoms: MSG causes Headaches, migraines, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, irritable bowel syndrome, upset stomach, asthmatic attacks, skin rashes, heart palpitations,anxiety or panic attacks, shortness of breath, balance problems, heart attack like symptoms, allergy type symptoms, flushing, mood swings, behavioral disorders (especially in children and teens) mental confusion, runny nose, bags under the eyes, urinary and prostate problems, partial paralysis, mouth lesions and depression. In addition, there is some medical research linking MSG to Alzheimer's Disease, ALS (Lou Gehrig's), and Parkinson's.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

*Now *I know what's wrong with me!! Here I just thought it was my job.  Very interesting thread. It reminds me though of a time back in the '80s when Harvard and Yale both released results for studies they'd done on the relashionship of coffee and cancer. One said coffee caused cancer, one said it prevented it. Also, they told us butter was bad for us because of cholesterol. We should all eat margarine (trans fats anyone?). What happened? As a nation, our cholesterol went up, not down. I am very skeptical of any findings that are not iron-clad (which would be all of them) and the food police make me nervous. They get everybody in a panic over some half-baked idea, tell you what you should eat and then tell you 30 years later it's bad for you. Last time I checked, I'm not a rat (at least not physically) and how something affects rats may not be anything like how it would affect a human. Things that don't bother us can be deadly for dogs, for instance, and vice-versa. Can you imagine what the food police would do about chocolate if they'd tested it on dogs? Please, just label things and let people make up your own minds. Let's stop with banning everything. I often think of my garandmother. She grew up eating lard (cholesterol) and then used Crisco for baking in her last 45 0r 50 years (trans fats) because she liked the flavor better. She lived to be 97.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

You just listed the side effects of salt as well. Acording to you and your Dr Blaylock theory I would be dead and buried as I eat foods everyday that contain some form of MSG, Oh wait we all do....


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a few physicians here and I read this to them. They all laughed. There is not a shred of evidence to support the theory that several of these symptoms are associated in any way with MSG.
Here is a quote from Doctor Blaylock;

"You have a million patients in this country with arrhythmias that are life-threatening, and no one's telling them to avoid MSG"

So we have a million patients and of ALL of their physicians are wrong but Blaylock is right. Okey Dokey. You can also find a chirowactor that will tell you they can cure high blood pressure and diabetes with spine manipulation. :lol:

Here is what the good Doctor has to say about restaurants;
"One of the things that has been noticed about sudden cardiac death is that most that have it, other than athletes, die after eating a meal in a restaurant."

Yeaaaaaah. I'd very much like to see a published study from a reliable source like the New England Journal of Medicine that shows cardiac arrest is directly associated with restaurants in "Most" cases resulting in death. Dr. Blaylocks publications amount to little more than self promotion. He has not had a paper published by a main stream medical source in nearly 30 years. 

He also has this to say about the food industry;
"They don't know, (Chef's food workers, dietitians) so it's hard for them to come out and tell their customers, "It's free of MSG." What they mean when they do say that is, "We didn't put any in there." Their white sauces are particularly high, as are their salad dressings, especially the ones that are pure oil. They **all** contain MSG"

News flash. If you use pre-fab Sysco food it has a lot of crap in it. However MSG is a naturally occuring chemical so it is indeed found in many foods where it has NOT been added.
This guy also thinks MSG is responsible for SIDS. That's more than just a little out there. I suggest if you Google Blaylock you do that in combination with the word "Quack" and or "Junk Science".
Moderation is the key. Shove processed food in your face every day and you probably won't be very healthy. I have to wonder if those who appear to have such irrational fears about MSG are walking around with oxygen tanks and refusing to drink tap water as well.
BTW Blaylock has a ton of wild theories including those on Macular degenration. For the low low price of X dollars per month you to can subscribe! Just be fore-warned that his pseudo science has earned his publication, the Wellnes Report a well deserved spot on sites like Quack Watch which is operated by another MD. 
The only real question for me is whether I should grill or fry chicken little.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

In the beginning of the Bush administration Brocolli was bad for you , then it changed. I don't think half of these Doctors? know anything about food.


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

thanks for the link, btw, this is what I'm looking for 

and it's way surprising reading all these posts. Apparently people have been hit all over with bad marketings and misinformation, no?

I...can only hope there's no ill will involved but, who knows in this hard, hard world..


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

Yo Duck Fat most physician receive only a few weeks nutritional training and have not idea about the effects of MSG,Appertain and other chemicals put in foods.Because the food and drug companies donate huge sums of money to control the matrix of our food and drugs. Back in the 1930 and 40s Rockefeller brought up all the Medical Schools that taught healing with herb and natural ingredients and closed them down. Once those school were gone big phama had total control of the doctors and their curriculum and turned most doctors into drug pushes. So big Phama could rack up the billions. And with the FDA in their pocket the money flowed despite the death caused by proscribed drugs each year killing more than a quarter of a million people each year. Today just look around and see a the sick and obese people.Food manufactures produce food that is garbage for the consumer, case in point the movie super size me.Its about this guy who eats at McD for a month and gain weight and gets sick in the process. McD puts MSG in all their food from the french fries to the Big Mac. So do most restaurants because its good for the bottom line but bad for the customers health. Cooks and Chefs that use MSG and other toxic chemicals in your food don't want to face the reality of poisoning customers. But hey I got a car payment to make. Next time an obese customer walks in ask him or her to write you out so of the food they consume and you will find that MSG is in most of the food they consume.Manufactured MSG is a classified as excitotoxin as is NutraSweet sweet MONOSODIUM GLUTAMATE TOXICITY and the CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM
Say NO to MSG - Monosodium Glutamate - The Culture of Monosodium Glutamate


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Chef Tomain its not the fault of the MSG, its the fault of the ppl that eat an ENTIRE BAG OF CHIPS not 1 portion. The guy who did Supersize me ate McD's 3 times a day 7 days a week. If you did that with nothing but fruits and veggies you would be fat and sick and have an inflated insulin and sugar level. NOTHING IS GOOD FOR YOU IF YOU EAT IT ALL DAY EVERY DAY. MSG has been used by Chinese, Japanese and Thai for 100's of years yet they dont have the problems we do. Its not a man made chemical as you claimm its actually produced by your body, found in nature, and in moderation just like everything else its not bad for you. I bet you think Tofu is good for you but 10 years ago they found a link between Soy, Soy Milk and Tofu and Prostate Cancer in men. After looking further into it they found that during the research they were giving the lab rats 10X the normal amount that a human would eat. My suggestion to you is to read your studies a bit more carefully, this is what came out of the 2nd section not the fine print 
"In this country, at this time, potential poisons are not administered to humans in order to determine if they are toxic or safe. Therefore, what we know about the toxic effects of MSG comes from animal studies."

Let me say that I dont condone or go out of my way to use MSG, I also dont think its going to kill anyone, I dont think its a poison and I do develop food that contains it. It all depends upon the application, the customer and the usage. I will say that I would rather have .1% MSG in my food than 3-4% Salt, Potassium Chloride or Magnesium, but thats just me.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

In the late 60s they said saccharin gave you cancer. They fed cows the eqivalent of 160 cans of diet soda per day to come up with this result. When was last time a human drank 160 cans a day even taking into consideration human weight vs the cows. Chef How is correct when he tells you about how they test, it is always in extremes to bring out the fear factor and to make it appear they are right.:chef:


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I have no idea what medical school you went to friend but you should try to you can get a refund on your tuition. I have direct access to a number of specialists including an allergist. I know this might give you a brain freeze but some of the Docs I speak to spent more time doing fellowships in the area they actually specialize in than you spent in college. That was after a four year degree, medical school and an internship. The Quack you were talking about up-thread does NOT specialize in this field. Period.
I spoke to a cardiologist about his insane claims in regards to death after eating out. I go a straight forward response which amounted to a laugh and that's BS! :lol:
He said flat out the majority of cardiac events occur between 3 and 5 am when certain chemical levels in your body drop putting you at the greatest risk.
It's not rocket science. Shove processed food in your face several times a day and you won't be healthy. That's not because of MSG. It's because people treat their bodies like trash receptacles. I hear physicians comment with an alarming frequency that they have an obese child that thinks they are vegetarian because they eat nothing but chips and FF. Ya think maybe all that fat intake along with a terrible diet might have a slightly larger impact on their health than the MSG?
It's not an evil conspiracy. The sky is not going to fall if you consume a moderate amount of MSG.


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

Do some research on MSG. THe drug and food companies work hand in hand to get people sick from food additives so they can sell people drugs they don't need.There have been so many studies on MSG that show its hazards to peoples health. How dare you blame a person who gets addicted to foods with msg when the food manufactures use it not to make food healthier but to stimulate a consumers appetite artificial so that stimulates the pancreas to overproduce insulin. After the insulin rushes to store available sugar as fat, blood sugar levels drop, and the person becomes hungry, tired, and ready to eat again.Any one who thinks MSG has no effect on health is either unwilling to confront reality or is a flat earth society members .Check this out MSG - The Slow Poisoning Of America MSG Hides Behind 25+ Names, Such As 'Natural Flavouring' MSG Is Also In Your Favorite Coffee Shops And Drive-Ups. The slow poisoning of America. but who really cares I need to make my mortgage payment and I don't care who dies


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I am a Chef turned Food Scientist(I am one of those ppl you just accused of making ppl addicted to the MSG and food. I might have been offended if you were making sound arguments with research done on humans but you didnt and I'm not.), I have done research on MSG, my boss has a PhD in Food Science and and another in Human Biology and we have talked to Dr's, Chemists, and Registered Dieticians about this with and for customers. I can post 100's of studies to dispute what you are putting up here based on 1 one of many simple claims, the "dr's" that you are constantly quoting have never done any testing on humans and are admitting to injecting straight MSG into mice and rats!! You know why they dont publish those studies? I'll tell you, because when they do research on the human intake vs human intake of salt(thats what it replaces and is similar to)they find that it is not nearly as bad for you as salt is pound for pound since the normal intake per day is just shy of 11gr or less than about 1/3oz compared to salt which is about 11x than in a day. Let me say this again, MSG will not kill you(here is a linkEverything You Need To Know About Glutamate And Monosodium Glutamate), the copious amount of food that you eat while sitting on your butt and not excersing will whether it has MSG or salt in it. For some reason though ppl were afraid of MSG, they didnt understand it because it was foriegn and like everything foreign in this country rather than accept it and give it a shot we dispute it and let the "black helicopters" loose to dispute and shoot it down. Why not do some research on salt and then get back to me once you compare the two. While youre at it do some research on the effects of Potassium Chloride and Magnesium when used as a salt and MSG replacer. How about the effects of sugar, just plain old nonrefined sugar on the human body and compare the studies. I can go on for days about whats poison and what isnt, in fact I'd be willing to bet that you blame the obesity of todays kids on HFCS and not the fact that Mom and Dad plop the kid down infront of the TV or with their DS rather than getting the kids outside to play or to be active with them. Its simple really, when ppl want to become accountable for their own actions and stop blaming everyone esle for their own faults than we will be much better off as a society. Until then you can blame me till the cows come home and you are blue in the face, but then you would have to put down the bag of chips you are addicted to since they have MSG in them and you cant do that until there isnt a crumb left and you have licked the wrapper clean.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

So it's a conspiracy between pharmaceutical companies and food companies? 
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
That may be the funniest thing I have ever read in on the Internet.
Ever. 
Maybe it's really the aliens from area 51 that make the crop circles. That must be how MSG gets in beets and spinach! :lol: 
As far as those "studies" go I think you need to give some thought to the idea of moderation. Convert the amount of MSG or what ever they inject in lab mice to the volume humans would have to consume daily and it puts the "danger" in perspective.
Apply the same to sugar, salt, corn syrup, artificial sweeteners, sulfites, alcohol, butter, etc. etc. etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's wise to avoid eating a ton of processed or junk food and read labels. However if you have a serious case of hand to mouth disease (I've suffered from that as well :blush then there is no one else to blame and no substitute in the form of a pill for a balanced diet and exercise.


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

Ok Chefhow why do researchers inject msg into rats that make them fat for diabetes research. Also the 100 of researcher paper you refer to are come from scientists who work for for the Big food manufactures like the tobacco companies who came up with all the wonderful research about the benefits of smoking Show me one of these papers on msg and I will find hank panky and show you that the researchers work for the big food manufactures. 
Duck Fat this conspiracy bull **** you use is the lowest form of debate. If you can't debate with facts you attack the with "its a conspiracy theory" shows your ignorance and shows me that you are nothing but a zombie who can't research a subjects even though you have a internet that can look at subjects from many different viewpoints. If you want to find who own what in america just look up the boards of directors and stock holders and 10K and you will see who really own what corp.


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

Ok Chefhow why do researchers inject msg into rats to make them fat for diabetes research. Also the 100 of researcher paper you refer that come from scientists who work for for the Big food manufactures like the tobacco companies who came up with all the wonderful research about the benefits of smoking Show me one of these papers on msg and I will find hank panky and show you that the researchers work for the big food manufactures and data has been tainted.Also I think you may have a vested interest in the promotion of msg. Who do you work for? 
Duck Fat this conspiracy bull **** you use is the lowest form of debate. If you can't debate with facts you attack the with "its a conspiracy theory" shows your ignorance and shows me that you are nothing but a zombie who can't research a subjects even though you have a internet that can look at subjects from many different viewpoints. If you want to find who own what in america just look up the boards of directors and stock holders and 10K and you will see who really own what corp. Also you take the viewpoint that big food corps have are best interest at heart. Their bottom line in income they could care less about are health.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

How you could compare MSG research vs tobacco research is beyond me, that is apples to oranges. Most of the research I am referring to is done by independant labs or food science programs in colleges around the US and the UK. One of the largest and most in depth MSG papers done that I have seen was done by a PhD student at Ohio State in the Food Science department not someone who works for a food company. See I dont believe the papers you keep posting because they are injecting lab rats with the equivalent amounts to a years worth of human consumption. I'm not making it up , go back and read the papers and you will see for yourself, they admit it right up front and in regular size print. Find me a paper that uses human subjects over a long period of time that states MSG is poison and I will consider what you say as fact. Until than I am done debating human vs lab rat. 

As to your arguing with DuckFat and his conspiracy theories as you put them, I would take a look in the mirror, it sounds like you are a conspiracy theorist as well, just the conspiracy is in your favor. But out of curiousity I am going to ask you a question, Why would the companies that you speak of and their owners or the shareholders want to kill off their customers? They die or become ill from the product and lose customers, massive amounts of money in litigation and out of court settlements and then eventually market share meaning shelf space, and finally you go out of business. Doesnt sound like a very good plan or marketing strategy if you ask me.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I think you need to re-read your own posts. You have shown us nothing but conspiracy theories and conjecture. So far your only "facts" appear to come from a physician that is trying to profit from fear mongering. In regards to your insinuations about my research as I previously noted I have direct access to numerous physicians on an almost daily basis. I consider the research I've done to be a lot more viable than just spending a few minutes on Google. The Internet is a valuable tool but you need to realize that any one can write any thing and post it on the net. That does not make it factual. 
What stocks an individual owns means nothing. I have Monsanto stock in my portfolio at the moment. It's a great buy. However that doesn't imply that I'm planning on making people sick so I can "profit" from their illness (not sure how that works for a food company) or even that I condone their corporate philosophy.
If you own a mutual fund you better believe you own shares of some of those companies that you don't care for as well. 
Lets look again at one of your "facts":

"THe drug and food companies work hand in hand to get people sick from food additives so they can sell people drugs they don't need."


What you are claiming is that there IS a conspiracy between not just one but several pharmaceutical companies and food corporations. That is just conjecture or simply put... a conspiracy theory. Show us a single case where this has been documented. 
Your statement about the "lowest form of debate" and "ignorance" tell me that you are simply out of facts and have to resort to un-pleasantries.
Please tell us what pharmaceutical company is currently selling a drug that is marketed solely for the purpose of combating the negative effects of MSG. :crazy:
I suggest you take your own advice and do some research. Show us some human studies. Show us something with at least a smidgeon of credibility that doesn't smack of a wild conspiracy theory.
If you believe in that that pseudo science and are really that fearful stop eating processed food! Don't shove a bag of chips in your face every night, don't eat fast food etc. There is no one else to blame if you are obese or unhealthy because you treated your body like a trash bin. I think you need to try to research and understand the difference between a theory and a fact.
There are a ton of theories about MSG and as of yet very little factual evidence. Do you honestly think beets and spinach will make you fat as well? 
Balance is key in all things. 
It's been an interesting thread and I would be happy to continue if you can present some credable evidence to debate.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Chef
Why don't you read the ""disclaimers""" on some of the supposed authorities you have put in your responses???


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

You want studies then check out these. But Duck fat will claim they are conspiracies theorys and Chef How who I think works for a company that pushes the **** out of excitotoxins MSG, appertain, High fructose corn syrup and other additives wants to stick his head in ground and collect his pay check every week in good consciousness.

Studies on MSG
MSG Update: MSG Studies--Are you Concerned?
MSG - Slowly Poisoning America
The Surprising Ingredient Causing Weight Gain on Yahoo! Health
MSG Is Poison and the over 150 studies have proven this!
Proof MSG Causes Obesity In Experimental Studies
Studies show MSG fed Mice became Grossly Obese | MSG Exposed (Monosodium Glutamate)
Understanding brain damage and endocrine disorders caused by MSG
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
ScienceDirect - Toxicology Letters : Studies on the effects of monosodium glutamate (MSG) on oxidative stress in erythrocytes of adult male mice
MSG and hydrolyzed vegetable protein induced heada...[Headache. 1991] - PubMed Result
Gain Muscles Lose Fat: NO MSG: New Study Shows It's Fattening
SpringerLink - Journal Article
Proof MSG Causes Obesity In Expe
Here are a few studies on MSG that support my claim. Where is the research that say other wise that doesn't come from the producers and users of msg. The both line is that if you use MSG in your cooking your are poisoning people little by little. If you need any more studies I can find hundreds more.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I went through several of your links. It's clear that you do not understand what a scientific study is. Blogs, sites full of partial quotes and holeistic web sites are not sources for scientific studies. There is a *HUGE *difference between a theory and a fact or a supposition and a scientific study.
I did get a good laugh out of one of the conspiracy theory link where the author didn't appear to know he was ripping off an image from Weird Al Yankovic doing a MJ parody. You may want to drop them a note and let them know that's Hollywood make up and not MSG induced fat...unless weird al really was a lab rat! 
:lol:

Since the video is food related some might get a laugh out of it.

YouTube - Weird Al Yankovic-Fat

On edit:
I suggest you pick up a copy of Harold McGee's book "On food and Cooking-The science and lore of the kitchen". Read page 342.


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## chef tomain (Nov 17, 2008)

Duck Fat your full of sh// Read Mcgee first off the book was written in 1984 before most research was done on MSG. Secondly he just gives his opinion and doesn't back his opinion with facts or foot notes and lastly if he did get any data on MSG it was probably from the manufactures of msg or one of their front groups. So show me the research you are referring to that says MSG doesn't cause health problems. Or is it your too stupid to find research that supports your denial of the fact that MSG is poison


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## prairiechef (May 22, 2010)

MSG is nothing more than a method to replace talent when cooking. It isn't food.

It has been used to mask spoiling and spoiled food in Asia.

It is chemical trickery. "Hmmm.. my soup is crappy, pass the aromat".

Nope. Don't use it. Don't have any products in my kitchen that use it. From the first day I took the reins, it vanished from the shelves. It's a deal breaker for me when it comes to products.


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## cascadecatering (Feb 10, 2010)

MSG has almost been eradicated in Australia.  I can buy it in a Chinese suppliers, but even in conversation with them, very few people use it.  Having said that, I have used it, but only twice, and in place of salt.

We tend to use relatively good produce here, and I suppose there is no need to add MSG as opposed to salt.  Additionally, we have an abundance of good salts here to choose from.  Good salts, retain their base minerals, including potassium and magnesium., which offer a different mouthfeel to the food than does cheap iodized table salt.

I've never seen any conclusive scientific evidence proving MSG is bad.  Still I don't feel the need to use it, or see any advantage to using it, as opposed to a good salt.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

There is no medically proven clinical proof that MSG causes anything (other then common allergies like in other foods that effect individual  people) Msg also occurs naturally in a lot of foods. And to the contrary it will only bring out the flavor of bad or rancid food even more, as it is an enhancer not a flavoring.


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifYears ago when I had to make my own soup stocks I would use my own flavor enhancer (a hand full of salt and a hand full of sugar) to a 80 qt. pot. Then when I had to use soup bases I stopped using the salt and then just the sugar. I then found that simple syrup was more convenient to have behind the line because sugar caked with the high humidity and heat . Then the bartenders found out I had simple syrup and they would take it. So I added a little salt to it just like I did the cooking wine to keep the cooks out of it and a little white vinegar, just enough you smell it but no taste it and little egg shade to color it so if the label "Chef's L.F.E. 'liquid flavor enhancer' " got removed it would not get thrown away./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

M.S.G. mono= "one" sodium= "salt" glutamate =" fermented sugar beets or sugar cane"

The Ajinomoto company was formed to manufacture and market MSG in Japan; the name 'Aji no moto' translates to "essence of taste". It was introduced to the United States in 1947 as Ac'cent flavor enhancer.

Modern commercial MSG is produced by fermentation[8] of starch, sugar beets, sugar cane, or molasses. About 1.5 million tonnes were sold in 2001, with 4% annual growth expected. MSG is used commercially as a flavour enhancer. Although once associated with foods in Chinese restaurants, MSG is now used by most fast food chains and in many foodstuffs, particularly processed foods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

Glutamate is produced in the human body and plays an essential role in metabolism. Almost two kilograms (about four pounds) of naturally occurring glutamate are found in muscles, in the brain, in kidneys, in the liver and in other organs and tissues. In addition, glutamate is found in abundance in mothers' milk, at levels about ten times that found in cows' milk.

http://www.glutamate.org/


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Caterchef your info is on the money. It should also be pointed out that it occurs naturally in a large variety of foods we eat.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

The subject of testing reminds me of a conversation i had with my doctor.

I told him I consumed a lot of caffiene.

He asked me to describe "a lot".

I told him that I drank (at that time) a couple of cups of coffee in the morning, 1 or 3 triple mochas throughout the day, maybe a soda squeezed in there.

He said "that's okay, caffiene is good for you this year".

When I asked what that meant, he told me that people are paid large sums of money every year to do studies on (among other things) caffeine.

Every year it changes from good to bad, then back again to good.

If the studies consistently said good or bad, then these people would no longer need to be paid.


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## cascadecatering (Feb 10, 2010)

I recall some years ago, when we first moved to Australia, there was a current affairs show, that one night, had an article, about potatoes. Turns out potatoes are violently poisonous and can cause death. The only trouble was, that while indeed potatoes contain a level of a poison, if you cut off the green bits, or only consume a small amount of the poison, your immune system will take care of it. Much like the cyanide in apples. The segment on the show caused 2 days of newspaper headlines. I thought Australia was going on a self imposed potato famine for a while.

(Wikipedia) Potatoes contain toxic compounds known as glycoalkaloids, of which the most prevalent are solanine and chaconine. Solanine is also found in other plants in the family Solanaceae, which includes such plants as the deadly nightshade (_Atropa belladonna_), henbane (_Hyoscyamus niger_) and tobacco (_Nicotiana_) as well as the potato, eggplant, and tomato. This poison affects the nervous system, causing weakness and confusion.

Anyway, while MSG is safe for consumption, CaterChef has a much better product with his Chef's L.F.E. Thats giving food love.


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## homemadecook (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm just annoyed with these food police


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

back up........... MSGis good for you?

 we are now entering the Twilight Zone


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

I saw where it was claimed that MSG wasn't bad, but I didn't see where someone said it is "good for you".

Long thread though, so I may have missed it.


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif I guess it depends on whether or not you believe salt and sugar are good or bad for you.

Your body requires a certain amount of sodium, I not sure about sugar but, if you are going to burn those calories it might as well taste good. Plus sodium comes naturally in a lot of our food and glutamate is produced by our body.

Now, Oil In The Gulf Of Mexico ( That's Bad For All Of Us )


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

I'll take that natural occurring glutamate my body produces..... along with a side of naturally occurring sugar and throw in  some naturally occurring salt .....Thank-you

no condiments

thanks ...really no thank-you


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## mike8913 (Mar 22, 2008)

don't you think that's kinda self righteous and full of BS gypsy? it's highly unlikely anyone on this site or anyone in modern society is taking in only naturally occurring salts and sugars, and I suppose MSG as well considering its in most mass produced foods.

Personally I think Salt, Sugar, and MSG are awesome. It' s one thing if we own a food corp. and pour the stuff into food that would otherwise taste like crap and oxides; that's an example of a faulty moral compass and an excellent bottom line. For us though I think the most important thing is for food professionals of the small scale like the restaurant, catering, whatever else chef have an understanding of these products which can be described as expert. The sooner us low level entrepeuners start understanding in an expert fashion what we are putting in our food the easier it will be to convey that to our friends and family and customers so that the message gets across in a "blue grass" fashion


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## cstanford (Jul 3, 2008)

I think I'll stick to fleur de sel and freshly ground pepper.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It may come as news to all you biochemists contributing to this thread, but a "glutamate" of nearly any sort, including a glutamic acid, plus "sodium" is not the same as monosodium glutamate. 

Also, even though sodium is one of the atoms in the sodium-chloride molecule which makes up ordinary table salt -- sodium is not salt or even a salt, it's a metal. 

BDL


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

mike8913 said:


> don't you think that's kinda self righteous and full of BS gypsy? it's highly unlikely anyone on this site or anyone in modern society is taking in only naturally occurring salts and sugars, and I suppose MSG as well considering its in most mass produced foods.
> 
> Personally I think Salt, Sugar, and MSG are awesome. It' s one thing if we own a food corp. and pour the stuff into food that would otherwise taste like crap and oxides; that's an example of a faulty moral compass and an excellent bottom line. For us though I think the most important thing is for food professionals of the small scale like the restaurant, catering, whatever else chef have an understanding of these products which can be described as expert. The sooner us low level entrepeuners start understanding in an expert fashion what we are putting in our food the easier it will be to convey that to our friends and family and customers so that the message gets across in a "blue grass" fashion


Well I am entitled to my opinion.....

and what I consider safe to ingest and to feed others ...am I not?


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