# Need 3 New Knives and accompanying stones (preferrably with an angle guide) for Carving Chicken and



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

So in my previous thread found here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/89979/teach-a-young-man-to-fish-or-in-this-case-sharpen

We deduced that my current knives, 2 Dexter carving knives, 1 Wusthof carving knife, and 1 Dexter santoku knife were garbage because too much material had been taken off and the dimples had been reached:





  








20160717_181305.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 17, 2016








_Dexter_ Russell V-lo Duo Edge _Santoku_ Style Chefs Knife, _9 inch (v144-9GE)_





  








20160717_181301.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 17, 2016








Wusthof Pro 28cm





  








20160717_181253.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 17, 2016








SG140-12GE Dexter Russell SofGrip 12" Duo-Edge Roast Slicer





  








20160717_181248.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 17, 2016








SG140-12GE Dexter Russell SofGrip 12" Duo-Edge Roast Slicer





  








20160717_181157.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 17, 2016








The Santoku knife was used as a chef's knife and the carving knives of course were used for shawarma:





  








shawarma.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 24, 2016








LOCATION
Canada

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in?

Carving/shawarma Knife

Are you right or left handed?
Right handed.

Are you interested in a Western handle or Japanese handle?
Does it matter?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in?
9-12 inches

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no).

Don't Know

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

For all knives and stones and accessories, maximum $1000CAD

KNIFE USE:

everyday use

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
professional

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?

Shawarma

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

See previous trash dimpled knives

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
No really

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Check out the fella with the two shawarma cones. Chef's knife i use the pinch grip, shawarma knives i use a seesaw motion

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
Sharpness no only out of the box but in the future also ,I know i will have to sharp it and take great care of it and i want knifes that i can keep for the next 10 years to come

Better aesthetics?
Don't care

KNIFE MAINTENANCE:

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?

Plastic

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

No, but i will learn. I will not let anyone else touch these knives

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes.

SELECTION (in no particular order) 

Thank you guys, you have been a breath of fresh air


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Okay you have a few decisions to make

Carbon or stainless- Since you are buying house knives for the staff to use I would say 100% go stainless. Unlessss you want to train them on cleaning and keeping dry carbon slicer. Slicing meat is one of the better tasks for carbon steel, it probably won't rust and it will build up patina fast.. Still I don't trust staff with a $250+ knife so I would go stainless.

Length - On slicers longer is better. Minimize sawing with a longer blade for better looking cuts and faster more efficient work too

If I were you, I would get cimeters like this


Or ya know if you have two or three people slicing scale up appropriately. And you can have a spare one if you are behind on sharpening. Technique wise the guys at my local shwarma place go for one long cut then go back for another cut. Pointer grip, you lock your elbow, and swing down from the shoulder one big motion. You don't need to go the whole length of the meat roll each time, but the part you're cutting doesn't get sawed so much.

They might be used to the straight shape then get this 
Stones are actually trickier I don't know what's readily available in Canada. General advice if you go this type of stainless you don't need super high grit finishing stones. I keep victorinox boning knife around 2000 grit (japanese) which is a good amount of 'tooth' for ripping into protein.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

For schwarma I'd do like Millions recommends to get a few inexpensive scimitars and learn to sharpen them or (and don't laugh too loud) an old-fashioned electric knife or two.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Unless there are commercial versions I'm unaware of electrics I don't think electrics hold up for very long.  And you loose a lot of visual appeal with their use, at least I would balk at the sight.

But as Chef Layne once pointed out they are the only way you can cut certain pastry items in half, I guess that comes in handy at times for some establishments.  Imagine some fragile torte that has a single large strawberry sitting on top on a glob of whipped cream.  And, of course, at avoiding fights at home when there is only one of those left.  ;-)~


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

I have some questions:

1.  What is the advantage of Carbon Steel?

   a.  What is the advantage of a patina

   b.  Why is it so hard to train employees to keep it dry and clean

2.  Why not suggest any Japanese knives like we discussed in the previous thread to this?

3.  Is their a video or image which you can provide to illustrate the pointer grip?

4.  What the disadvantages of SS compared to carbon steel

5.  Is Brian serious about electric knives?


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

electric knife.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 24, 2016








THing is, i have seen a alot of images on the net of shawarma places using something like this, but we don't make our shawarma cones, and in the chicken ONLY , their are small itty bitty bones that when i cut, i can feel if i hit one, with this knife, i would blast right through it


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Knifewear and Lee Valley should both stock stones and be good vendors for Canadian buyers.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

1. Easiest to sharpen, and except for R2 no [readily available] stainless can get as sharp.

a. Patina comes with use, or you can force it in a number of ways. It's a carbon-based oxide of iron that inhibits ordinary rusting.

b. You would actually know the answer to that better than I.

2. Millions made very good initial suggestions there, not being really sure you actually wanted the expense of Japanese knives. The Vics are very good bangforthebuck, they are nicely thin behind the edge, and tough, and you won't feel so bad at the help abusing them [which they very likely will]. For carving Shawarma they will hold an edge reasonably well. We could talk about knives like the Kochi from JKI, and others.

3. Just imaginne you index finger lying on top of the spine.

4. See #1

5. Only he knows for sure. I recall the one from my childhood was rather a slow cutter, though you may find some today that are better here. I was actually involved in the design of one for a Ron Popeil/industrial designer kind of guy. This one was no speedster either and certainly wasn't made to last, and intentionally so. And I'll repeat, they just don't fit under the heading of "Cool," so far as my sensibilities go.

For my personal knife here I'd go for a Takamura 270mm HSPS Pro Sujihki, or possibly even a Tanaka Ironwood (Damascus) for the bling, if I could find either one available. And I certainly wouldn't let ordinary kitchen help use it. If you have a small shop and if you can really trust your guys that "might" be a different story.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Rick Alan said:


> For my personal knife here I'd go for a Tanaka R2 Pro Sujihki, if I could find one available. And I certainly wouldn't let ordinary kitchen help use it.


http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kamo1.html

Is that what you are talking about?

And what do you think about the pic of the electric knife i posted and my predicament

Furthermore: I imagine the Tanaka R2 Pro Sujihki takes more time and effore for maintenance and cleanup and is not advised for a beginner such as myself


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Yes I am serious. Unless you are serving to race car drivers during pit stops speed isn't that much of an issue. Reliability is worth considering though. 

And I'm with Rick, they aren't "cool" but they may be quite functional in that application... They were for us to a reasonable extent. 

My knowledge of reliability of old electric knifes was that the held up until they broke, and then they were throwaways. When I ran a quick service type joint that was a mix of American and MiddleEastern, a long time ago, we used them and they generally failed when some jackass put them in a sink full of water to wash them. I can't recall one wearing out but that seems like a very realistic possibility. They were/are rather inexpensive to buy and replace... But cheap knives were too!

You need to clarify your intent: sell and serve schwarma or be a knife geek with a cool knife. Both is possible but not if you are providing knives to minimum wage employees. I'm all for being a knife geek, BTW, but more oriented toward preparing good food with whatever tool does the job. 

I'd have a chat with the chicken cone supplier about those bones!


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

My position is that house knives should be cheap and able to take abuse. You don't need to buy your employees a sports car, more like a 1980s pickup truck that keeps on running.

Electric knives are bound by that annoying cord. I own one just for brisket because the bark is so tough. Not a problem on shwarma


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Cordless, Millions!


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

we are used to a more straight edge but i don't see how that would be a big deal when comparing the slicer and cimeter


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Alleviates the sharpening issue to a large degree. That's all really.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> Alleviates the sharpening issue to a large degree. That's all really.


Are you saying that a straighter edge is easier to sharpen?


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm saying electric knive almost never needs sharpening unless blades are abused.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The notion of an electric is not exclusive of professional insight, but just look at the two-fisted knife wielding Chef "The Carver" and ask yourself if he'd present the same with an electric in his right hand?  Oh but my eyes are hurting now!

But I have to say that the rotary tool would present much better than the typical twin blade electric, and that one will probably hold up.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

More professional... No doubt. The price seem to run $100 to $500. Didn't look at the difference between these offerings though. I suppose it depends on budget. The schwarma isn't likely to taste and better cut with expensive knives than it would cut with bargain knives. As long as the food/service quality is high and the knife is sharp enough to cut.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Since about the last 8-10 years, I haven't been a gyro place that wasn't using electric knives. Isn't shawarma cutting generally the same thing? Outside of a handful of knife-geeks, nobody in the rest of the world has any care for the coolness/uncoolness of anyone using big fancy knives or electric knives.

? 1b) It's hard to train employees proper knife care because they are employees. They don't care if something you bought with your money gets wrecked. Sorry ... but that's life. Nobody cares if it's not out of their pocket.

? 2) You don't buy expensive high quality stuff for your employees to wreck. You buy employees industrial _"Timex"_ type stuff _... takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'._ Knife-geeks like expensive high quality stuff because it's cool, and since they paid with their own money ... they take care of it.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> Alleviates the sharpening issue to a large degree. That's all really.


Millions posted two links to Amazon, one for a cimeter and one for a slicer, which would be easier to sharpen using sharpening stones?


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Either really. It doesn't take much more skill to sharpen a curved blade than a straight one, and not much more time to learn either, The scimitar would look really cool... especially if it is big! But I'd trade the toque for a fez or a taqiyah. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

@Rick Alan

@BrianShaw

@IceMan

The reason i don't or can't use something like this




  








electric knife.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 24, 2016








is because the chicken cones usually have bones the length and width of a small needle and with a standard knife, i can feel when i hit one (as long as i am cutting thin) whereas with the electric knife above, i will blast right through it.

And i don't think a call to the cone company will do anything, as i am a small restaurant with no weight to throw around


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

21T8m1Ni52L.jpg




__
thecarver


__
Jul 25, 2016








So i just want to know other than the fact that the slicer is carbon steel, and costs less, which would be the better knife and why?? Like which would you choose??

( And why does the cimeter cost more?)

Edit: I know i want a knife WITHOUT divets/dimples and WITHOUT a Granton edge (which from reading sounds the same thing) but do i want it smooth, serrated, or straight?





  








qweq.png




__
thecarver


__
Jul 25, 2016








The Highlighted part


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

The slicer. It is more flexible and better suited to the job. It will give more feel feedback. The scimitar is stiffer and better suited to cutting steaks such as NYs..


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

TheCarver said:


> @Rick Alan
> 
> @BrianShaw
> 
> ...


That occurred to me shortly after I posted. Brian mentioned the bones, I believe intimating it could damage some Japanese knives, like lasers. With the rotary it could possibly blast through the bone giving no indication, not good.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It means japanese steel could chip on a chicken bone.

@cheflayne The flex is actually why I don't like that type of slicer. I don't like my knife bending willy nilly when I'm cutting. End up with uneven thicknesses when you don't intend it.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

My only comment about bones has nothing to do with knives. The carver himself mentioned the rotary knife blasting through bones. My point on bones in schwarma cones:The bones are a defect in the food product.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

qweq.png




__
thecarver


__
Jul 25, 2016








The highlighted part


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Time for my two cents.  I don't usually talk about knifes because I have been using mine for 35 years.  Looking at the pictures in the original post I think the problem may be using the stone to much.  These knifes look like they were sharpened on a bench grinder.  I have not used a stone on my chefs knife for several years.  I use a Victorinox  diamond finisher every day.  My knifes are sharp and long lasting.  Carver who is sharpening your knifes?


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Serrated is harder to maintain over time though it will continue to kind of cut by sawing and tearing. I don't know how the filter is differentiating smooth and straight.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> Time for my two cents. I don't usually talk about knifes because I have been using mine for 35 years. Looking at the pictures in the original post I think the problem may be using the stone to much. These knifes look like they were sharpened on a bench grinder. I have not used a stone on my chefs knife for several years. I use a Victorinox diamond finisher every day. My knifes are sharp and long lasting. Carver who is sharpening your knifes?


Sharpening place with belt sander


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

MillionsKnives said:


> @cheflayne The flex is actually why I don't like that type of slicer. I don't like my knife bending willy nilly when I'm cutting. End up with uneven thicknesses when you don't intend it.


If you muscle the knife that will happen. If you use a light touch. Don't saw and let the knife do the work, willy and nilly stay home. Thirty years ago a chef (that I have mad respect for) corrected my technique and then told me to use it like it was a straight edge razor and I was shaving the face of a friend.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

foody518 said:


> Serrated is harder to maintain over time though it will continue to kind of cut by sawing and tearing. I don't know how the filter is differentiating smooth and straight.


Just a suggestion (to the Carver, not 518), but if one wants to know the difference between their designation of smooth and straight one could click one and then the other. I suspect the same products would appear.


----------



## grande (May 14, 2014)

http://www.madcowcutlery.com/store/pc/Jero-TR-Traction-Grip-10-Butcher-RED-151p2765.htm

As far as what Cheflayne said about the slicer, if it was sharper, you wouldn't need to muscle it. If you wanted a straight blade that was stiffer, you could get something like this.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I'm not muscling anything.  Mostly I use a slicer for bbq brisket which has tough bark.  I've since gone electric for that very specific task.  I still prefer a stiff knife over flex for any application except filleting fish.

Which is neither here nor there for OP's requirements for slicing shwarma off a log.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Why is their such a big difference in cost with the cimeter double that of the slicer?

THe slicer is carbon steel, will i have issues if my employees don't keep it clean and dry?

@MillionsKnives If you say Carbon steel is better for slicing meat, and this knife is only $40, why choose the cimeter?

TY


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Grande said:


> if it was sharper, you wouldn't need to muscle it.


I have seen plenty of people, who get paid, in kitchens that muscle sharp knives because they lack knowledge of proper technique.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

TheCarver said:


> Why is their such a big difference in cost with the cimeter double that of the slicer?


My guess would be it takes more steel to make the scimitar. Thicker blade and more height.


TheCarver said:


> THe slicer is carbon steel, will i have issues if my employees don't keep it clean and dry?


I believe it is high carbon stainless steel, so shouldn't be any issues.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Benuser said:


> All kitchen Vics are indeed stainless. The same Krupp stuff most German makers use, but a bit less refined in the grain than with Wüsthof and Zwilling. Hardly a problem with the OP's intended use. The scimitar is as said before a typical butcher's knife. Great for steaks. The so-called slicer is a ham knife, meant for cutting and presenting thin slices, to explain the rounded tip. Expect indeed some flex. Steel is the same.


So the slicer would be the closest to my intended use, yes?


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Can anyone provide me links to specific sharpening stones (with maybe an angle guide) as well?


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Vics get a specially rough treatment with me. Naniwa Professional AKA Chosera 400, deburring on a green Scotch sponge. That's it.


like this: ?

and can you suggest some sort of angle guide


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I like to go up to 2000 grit on that type of steel.   I think 400 is kind of low for regular sharpening and you'll remove a lot of metal.  I only use coarse if it needs to change the bevel or something

I don't think you need any angle guide.   You know what 90 degrees looks like. Take half of that is 45 and go half again.  It doesn't matter exactly what angle you are at, just that you hold it the same.  you can tell by the sound it makes on the stone if you change the angle.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

MillionsKnives said:


> I like to go up to 2000 grit on that type of steel. I think 400 is kind of low for regular sharpening and you'll remove a lot of metal. I only use coarse if it needs to change the bevel or something
> 
> I don't think you need any angle guide. You know what 90 degrees looks like. Take half of that is 45 and go half again. It doesn't matter exactly what angle you are at, just that you hold it the same. you can tell by the sound it makes on the stone if you change the angle.


1. What is the disadvantage of using an angle guide?

2. Would i use multiple stones or just one for these knives ( I will be purchasing the 3 x slicer)


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Your options are 

1) Follow the angle already on the bevel of the knife - guide can't help you there

2) Set whatever bevel angle you want - again you don't need a guide to do that

So what does having a set angle guide really do for you? 

Get a coarse and medium stone.   Most of the time you sharpen on 1000 grit.  You only go to the coarse stone if you want to remove more metal faster.  ex. thinning, repairing chips, changing the bevel angle.   It is unnecessary in normal usage and will wear your knife away faster.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

MillionsKnives said:


> Your options are
> 
> 1) Follow the angle already on the bevel of the knife - guide can't help you there
> 
> ...


Can you provide me with links for coarse and medium stones you would suggest?


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Benuser said:


> The reason I keep them that coarse is in the large carbides embedded in a soft matrix. Finer stones will weaken the matrix without abrading the large carbides who tend to break out. An instable edge is the result.
> This is even more pronounced with the Vics than with Wüsthofs and Zwillings I sharpen at 800 and might strop and deburr on a 2k.


1. But in regards to millions' concern about taking off too much metal, is that a valid concern?

2. SO have you noticed that all or most Vics are like this or are you just observing your own knives? You sound like you have owned many Vics and you've noticed a pattern


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Naniwa super stone and chosera/professional, as well as Shapton stones are good 'splash and go' options. Beston 500 & Bester 1200 good for stones you can keep in a tub of water.

I'm fairly confident once you get over the learning curve, you're not going to take off metal at the rate the Mr. Belt Sander did as with the stones...I mean, you'll see it, you'll put the strokes in, basically, you'll catch yourself. It takes effort to do extensive metal removal on the stones.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

foody518 said:


> Naniwa super stone and chosera/professional, as well as Shapton stones are good 'splash and go' options. Beston 500 & Bester 1200 good for stones you can keep in a tub of water.
> 
> I'm fairly confident once you get over the learning curve, you're not going to take off metal at the rate the Mr. Belt Sander did as with the stones...I mean, you'll see it, you'll put the strokes in, basically, you'll catch yourself. It takes effort to do extensive metal removal on the stones.


whats the difference between splash and go and keeping them in water?

I am sorry, but i am overwhelmed by all this lingo. Where the heck do you guys learn all this, do you have some resource i can refer to or am i supposed to know all this.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The construction of these synthetic stones makes some amenable to one usage and storage vs another. It has to do with the composition of the binding agent. For example the Naniwa Superstones and Choseras are discouraged from soaking. Enough water to wet the surface will more or less have them work fine, and they won't dry up on you immediately as you're sharpening with them. The Bester and Beston stones are thirsty and need that water to permeate through it for them to work as intended. They'll get more scratchy feeling and sound unpleasant when drier than they want to be IMO. Here's a resource on behavior of various stones 
I...I've just put a lot of time into catching up to the info online and on forums and videos. Pretty much knew this was going to turn into my next consuming obsession.

Which lingo? Stones, or the sharpening approach?


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

foody518 said:


> The construction of these synthetic stones makes some amenable to one usage and storage vs another. It has to do with the composition of the binding agent. For example the Naniwa Superstones and Choseras are discouraged from soaking. Enough water to wet the surface will more or less have them work fine, and they won't dry up on you immediately as you're sharpening with them. The Bester and Beston stones are thirsty and need that water to permeate through it for them to work as intended. They'll get more scratchy feeling and sound unpleasant when drier than they want to be IMO. Here's a resource on behavior of various stones
> I...I've just put a lot of time into catching up to the info online and on forums and videos. Pretty much knew this was going to turn into my next consuming obsession.
> 
> Which lingo? Stones, or the sharpening approach?


both............/img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If you need to be able to pull stones out and wet them and start using them, then go splash and go. If there is some storage or work space for a container or tub of stones sitting in water then a combo like the Beston+Bester will do well.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB One of the best YT series of videos on waterstone sharpening. Watch videos like 'Basic Movements' 'Sharpie Trick' 'Double Bevel Basics' 'Knife Sharpening Basics' and 'Angles of Approach'


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

"Sharpening place with belt sander"  You have got to be kidding.  Stop using the sharpening place now.  They don't know what they are doing.  "I am sorry, but i am overwhelmed by all this lingo" Don't worry about the lingo, it's just lingo.  Like talking to a 18 year old at Best Buy about computers.  Go to a good knife store and ask them to show you how to sharpen a knife.  I learned how in Boy Scouts.  It is not rocket science and you don't have to understand the crystalline structure of different metals.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I do declare... what we seem to have here is "analysis paralysis".


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Let's really add some more lingo and muddy up the waters. Check out this information, http://calphad.com/martensitic_stainless_steel_for_knives_part_1.html


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW.


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> Let's really add some more lingo and muddy up the waters. Check out this information, http://calphad.com/martensitic_stainless_steel_for_knives_part_1.html


I am a mechanical engineer, iron ring and all, so i can understand this, only because Strength and Materials was a 2nd year class and i loved chemistry


----------



## thecarver (Jul 17, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Not sure whether this will help understanding how to sharpen Vics.


lol, i never said it would


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Carver,

I had that course many years ago.  Had an Asian Professor and could not understand him.  I can still read the diagrams.  Just like the lingo they don't tell you how to sharpen a knife.


----------

