# Question and advice : Whetstones and Ceramic Honing Steel



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Hi guys,

I have been looking around these forums for a while and I'm impressed with all the positivity that members are willing to provide, what a great community!

I've just swapped all my cheap home depot steel knives with Japanese ones over the past few months. All VG10 core, ranging from Tojiro DP to a few Gekko Damascus and Tojiro Flash/Senkou. Now That I have my knife block full, I am looking to learn to sharpen and hone them properly ... so far, being new knives they aren't too bad. I mistakenly convinced myself that buying a Global Minosharp 3 Wheel Ceramic Sharpener was all I needed, but I'm increasingly finding that the edge doesn't hold long ... time to do this properly!

After much research, I think as a newbie, I will need 3 stones to start with?

1x low grit (200-300) for fixing chips/nicks/re-doing the edge + use for flattening other higher grit stones

1x medium grit (1000) for sharpening

1x high grit (5000-6000) for removing burrs and polishing

My first question is, do I also need a honing steel (I just bought a ceramic DMT CS2, without really thinking about stones) if I will already own a 6000 grit stone? i.e. does the 6000 grit stone do the honing for me? I'm guessing the ceramic steel is more about accessibility/quick access versus setting up a stone every time?

Secondly, if anyone could provide opinions on brands/models ... there are just too many reviews out there, but I am after the best value kit for a beginner without breaking the bank. I am thinking something like :

1x KING 220 Grit

1x KING 1000 Grit

1x NANIWA Super Stone 5000 or SHAPTON (KUROMAKU) 5000

Thirdly, I have seen items like the KING Combi 1000/6000 and SueHiro Combi 1000/3000 ... but am I right is saying that it's probably worth investing in individual stones in terms of life you get out of them? i.e. you will wear down the 1000 grit heaps faster than the high-grit side, leaving you with an odd size/shape "leftover" stone?

Really happy for any advice. I want to do my new knives some justice!

Cheers in advance everyone!


----------



## zefir68 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hello,

Congrats on the new knives!

As for the sharpening stones - Since the knives are new, if treated well, you won't need a low grit stone for serious re-profiling. Unless you start buying knives on eBay and refurbishing them as a hobby (which happens to way too many people that frequent these forums). I have been using a combo 1000/6000 stone for almost a decade, own about 30+ kitchen knives, plus many more for woodworking. Keeping all of those in working shape, plus sharpening for friends and neighbors and the stone is far from being worn out. I regularly flatten it with the Norton flattening stone for waterstones and I anticipate many more years of use before either side is worn out. Make sure the flattening stone is truly flat when you get it, I got an uneven one at first and exchanged it.

The honing steel and the fine grit stone do not serve the same function. To hone is to straighten out the microscopic teeth that are part of the cutting edge. This action prolongs the time that a knife is usable between sharpening. When honing is not enough anymore to give you the sharpness that you desire, then sharpening to create a new edge is necessary. If you sharpen every time, I think you will wear out the steel much faster than necessary.

Enjoy the knives!


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I also use an inexpensive 1/6K combi, mines a bit muddy so I don't know as it would last 10+ years as millions uses it. I have heard the Iminishi is a very good combi. What are you using Millions?

The thing with combi stones is most are 7 instead of 8", not a big deal really. For quality and price in a set you can't beat the Geshin 3 piece set, much the same as you specified for grits, 400/2000/6000 http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/gesshin-stone-set.html These cut very fast, much better than the typical combi. They also have a full-sized 1/6K combi, it is pretty thick and would likely last you forever and then some. http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone.html I'll disagree with Millions and say that a good course stone will eventually be needed for thinning, so I'd go for the set.

I haven't gone the route yet, but if you eventually desire an even more refined edge then I think a loaded strop could be considered over a finer stone. Right now I am using a fine Arkansas, which is probably around 12K for finish. It's OK for VG-10 and the relatively soft steels I have, I wouldn't recommend going out and buying one though.

For steels the usual rec is either a 12" Idahone or a polished/packer's steel. A strop, loaded or not, is another option, a loaded strop arguably being the best, though either not necessarily the most desireable for yourself. I use the rounded edge of a fine Ark, again, I wouldn't recommend going out and buying one special.

Rick


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks guys, lots to think about!

Just one question on using the honing steel... the DMT Ceramic steel I got says it has about 2000 grit. Does this mean that it will wear away the polish I achieve by using say an 8000 grit stone, the more I use the steel? Or is it such a small amount of wear that it's unnoticeable?

I am also considering an electric knife sharpener option (e.g. Chef's Choice 120) but I read that it strips a lot of metal off each time?


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, so after some intense research, I think I have shortened my (new) list ... hoping I could get an opinion on Naniwa Chosera and Shapton Pro and their grits.

I found this page which is extremely useful in showing grit number versus result. At the end of the day, I basically want to (1) re-bevel/sharpen, (2) clean-up edges, then (3) polish.

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener/

So I am now thinking these three, given the size of the stones and micron ratings :

- Chosera 800 ... happy to pay a bit more versus the Shapton Pro 1000, you get a 25mm thickness as opposed to 15mm thickness of the Shapton which I think is important since this is my workhorse.

- Chosera 3000 or Shapton Pro 5000 ... the Chosera is about 40% more expensive??! What would you guys choose considering the Shapton Pro 5000 has a lower micron level but appears to achieve the same result?

- Shapton Pro 12000 ... it's the same price as the 8000 grit, so I might as well get it assuming the jump isn't too big and assuming I only can choose one or the other... thoughts?

Thanks so much again guys!


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I've never used one of the ceramic steels, but from others comments I am under the impression that the Idahone anyways is smoother in effect than 3K grit. A polished packers steel or, if you can part with $100 and one becomes available, there if the Hand American borosilicate rod if you do not wish to affect the polish.

Steeling with what is also my finishing stone takes care of the problem for me. You can also strop using your 12K stone, which is really the better solution.

Shaptons Glass stones cut very fast and dish very slow, the only complaint I hear is poor feedback feel, but this doesn't bother many. I don't know anything of the pro series. I'd still recommend the Geshin set if they are restocking any time soon and shipping isn't a problem, and add the Shapton 12k, which is likely comparable to the Chocera 10K, you could even go Shapton 15K.

This Grand Unified Grit Chart is helpful

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart

Rick


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I have gone through the expensive way of upgrading and I have King 220/1000 and 6000 stones, left at my parents house.  They're smaller, so you can sharpen less of the knife at a time, and they cut slower.  If you're not mindful of your sharpening, you might oversharpen areas or not, but that's true on any stone.  If you have the skills, this set will work fine for gyutos and other double bevel j knives.  Don't even try to sharpen a junk steel on King, you'll go crazy.

My current total set of stones, all 8"x3" except the gesshin stones slightly longer:

Suehiro 300 grit dual density (soaker)

Shapton pro 1000 (splash and go)

Shapton pro 2000 (splash and go) -maybe unnecessary but it is good pre polisher and cuts as fast as 1k of other brands

Gesshin 5k (splash and go)

That's where I stop for most knives.  Save your money on higher grit stones. I don't think your edges will be improved much going past 6k on VG-10 steel double beveled knives.

I have 8k and 10k Ohishi for yanagiba and straight razors.  The razor also gets natural stone finishing.

Yeah you need some type of coarse stone.  A good slow dishing coarse stone will save you time and money when you do thinning and repairs.  You'd wear out your other stones doing this stuff.  Additionally, every knife I buy starts on the coarse stone, whether they're previously owned and sharpened by 'experts' or fresh from the factory.  The only exception has been knives from JKI.  The bevels that Jon puts on those are good to go out of the box.  Good, even, crisp, not wavy bevels.

I don't have a ceramic rod, I just don't like the idea of all that pressure coming in on the side of a knife.  Finishing stones are good for touch ups until they stop working, then you have to do real sharpening.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

I dont think home users need steels. 220 is a very low grit for a new sharpener. I would be exceedingly careful using that stone because it will cut quickly. Get something to true your stones as well!


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks guys again, really appreciate it. 

I forgot to mention I did already order a King 220 stone as well. I'll use this to flatten the other stones, and I might also get a diamond plate (or go budget and get some 3M drywall fixture plates)

So for my vg10 knives there's no point going to a 12K Shapton pro for final polishing?

If that's the case I might just get the Chosera 800 and Shapton 5000/8000.


----------



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wanted to add that when looking at grit numbers or ratings etc that there are three different standards organizations that may be used when a manufacturer is rating the abrasive or coarseness of their products

There are sizable difference in the American, European and Japanese systems, and the actual micron size of the abrasives used within similar numbered grits. 

I have not looked at this in a few years, but remember from a post I did previously that the JIS (Japanese industrial standards organization?) tolerance were requiring more closely sized particles resulting in a more uniform grit across the stone (or paper or whatever abrasive being used etc).

This was something that used to confuse both the industrial and automotive collision industries and still does because the results from using similar grits that are based on the different systems produce very different results. 

Sure the bonding media and other things greatly effect things as well, and it is not always as easy to determine what system is being used add toy would think, and I have even found it sometimes difficult to get good answers from the mfg on what micron size is actually used as well. 

Also if your like me all the research may be helpful but until you get to use a particular stone and make your own decisions etc it is a lot of fluff and marketing.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Lenny, yeah I know what you mean! I was set on getting a King 1000, then changed my mind to Shapton pro 1000 then Chosera 800 but until I try it I will have no idea.

There's so many good and bad reviews you can't seem to just shop and hope for the best. For example I saw heaps of reports to avoid Chosera because they crack easily. But then it also happens to the Shapton because of the magnesia...and because of soaking and drying, almost put me off both brands until i read into it more.


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

1. Don't use a steel on J-knives






2. Be sure to check out the knife sharpening playlist made by Japanese Knife Imports. Easily the most comprehensive sharpening tutorials you'll find on youtube.

3. If you don't mind spending a small premium for quality stones, the Gesshin line-up from the aforementioned vendor are not only hard to beat, they come with support from a very knowledgeable and super approachable helpful guy. Here's his 'First stone setup buyer's guide and sharpening product line-up' video.






I have no affiliation with Jon other than as a satisfied customer. I have several stones from him and I can tell you that the level of care that goes into packaging your items in itself is worth a few extra bucks over what you'll find elsewhere.

My recommendation to start sharpening is a Gesshin 2k, a fat sharpie and a flattening plate.


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

kickling said:


> Thanks guys again, really appreciate it.
> 
> I forgot to mention I did already order a King 220 stone as well. I'll use this to flatten the other stones, and I might also get a diamond plate (or go budget and get some 3M drywall fixture plates)
> 
> ...


Absolutely there's no point in going to 12k on your VG10 knives. You're gonna want some bite on those kitchen knives. 12k is a reasonable stopping point for a straight razor way overkill for a kitchen knife. 8k is going to run all over your tomato skins too. For most kitchen tasks even 5k is going to be too much polish for some of your knives to still have bite. At a certain point the more you polish the edge of your knife the less well it's gonna cut. For me the only time I'm going higher than 5k is to polish the secondary bevel of a knife with a shinogi line(getting the scratches off the blade face after thinning). On most of my knives if I go past my Gesshin 2k the blade doesn't want to dig into bell peppers and starts sliding around and that's including a white steel Sakai Yusuke. My process now is to raise a burr on both sides with the 2K, and then just a light deburring on my Suehiro Rika 5K. The only blade that I do a whole polishing on the 5k is a 63HRC semi stainless Heiji. When I tried the 8K on the Heiji I found it cut less well.

If your goal is to push cut paper, then have at it and polish away. If you want to cut food, you'll want a whole different kind of edge for that.

Have fun shopping and playing with your new toys.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Well some of us have different feelings about polished edges. A polished edge maintains its keenness longer than a toothy one, and is much better for fine slicing. Whereas the toothy edge will provide some "breadknife effect" which [may] extend useful life of the edge, a home cook certainly does not require this. The fellow at ZKnives who has done so many excellent reviews always uses an edge polished to the max for his typical 4 hour prep sessions. And whereas A tomato skin may resist a pushcut from a polished edge after it has seen some use, the most imperceptible pull on the blade will drive it through like nothing.

Rick


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Wow, thanks again guys. I never even thought to think about the actual application of a super polished knife versus an adequately polished knife (super fine edge vs toothy). Obviously being kitchen knives I want to use them for food prep, but now that I think about it my cutting is usually a slice action apart from my santoku which I use a chop-chop action. Maybe I should sharpen/hone them differently to suit?

In any case, I'm guessing if I super polish them and it feels like it's not so good at cutting anymore I'll have to hit the lower grit stone and rough it back up a tiny bit.

Seems like lots of people recommend the Gesshin set, but I'm trying to get a good value kit at mid-range price and reasonable longevity. Being in Australia, shipping a set of Gesshin from JKI is going to be (most likely) a tad expensive, whereas I could order Chosera and Shapton Pro from Japan (330mate) direct for cheaper ... no offense to JKI and everyone's helpful recommendations, I do appreciate it all.

I guess I'm still torn between 220/800/5000/8000 kit or 220/800/5000/12000 kit... or maybe don't even bother with the 8000 or 12000 stones.


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

You have already had some great answers.  I will give you a personal perspective.  

I have a Chefs Pro 15/20 ...and would not dream of using it on my best knives.  Work stuff that others may use, then fine.  

Having had a couple of combi stones used on my mass produced "Japanese" knives, I recently bought Naniwa Professional 400/2000/5000/10,000.  I use these (and a leather strop on my best knives, which I bought personally in Japan.  Most of these knives are single bevel blue steel rather than VG10 or stainless.  However I also have a couple of Misono UX10 (Swedish steel, made in Japan).  

I intended to buy a white Naniwa 8000 but as I live in the UK and had to import from Germany, stock problems prevented this purchase for now.

My experience is the low grit very rarely needs to be used, but is helpful at times.  The 10,000 is absolutely great for getting a fine polished edge and makes a huge difference on the single bevel blue or white steel knives.  Essential.  Not sure I need go finer than this as I can easily shave the hairs off my arm with these.  

Interestingly, on the Misono and similar knives (stainless basically) I find the 10,000 stone exceptionally hard work (it takes ages) and I find it hard to persuade myself that it noticeably improves the edge.  I also have a 6000 grit from another brand (can't recall - King I think) but find the 5000 naniwa pro is superior.  

The naniwa stones are basically wet and use: no soaking.  I use a stone holding clamp, but they are fine on just a damp cloth on a board or piece of granite (whatever).  Personally I find the combination stones a bit of a pain to use and for a serious knife guy and long term use, I would just get decent single grit stones on day 1.  

A leather strop is cheap and makes a difference.  

I have a plain steel honing rod to reset the edge.  Rarely do I use it on good knives as it is so quick to wet a stone and give it a couple of strokes, that I tend to do that.  

I have also used ceramic rods in the past.  These will take metal off (as you will see by the marks on them) and I think they give more of an illusion of a doing something useful than anything else.  If you put a medium (5000/ 6000) and fine (8000/ 10000) out and give the blades a quick run over quite frequently, you will never have a dull edge again.  For perfection (paper cutting displays or whatever) a stop and paste is a good finishing routine.  

You don't need to worry about it much for stainless, but with carbon drying the knives is a key part of the routine as well.  Good luck.  

AJ


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

kickling said:


> I might just get the Chosera 800 and Shapton 5000/8000.


Frankly that's all you may ever really need. Unless you intend to do a lot of re-profiling you will not need a coarser stone. I can't imagine being with out either a Chosera 800 or 1k.

You will need to soak the Chosera. It' is not a splash and go stone like the Naniwa SS. Based on what you've posted I think you could go for years and be very happy with just the 800 Chosera and a 5K Naniwa SS.


----------



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kickling said:


> Lenny, yeah I know what you mean! I was set on getting a King 1000, then changed my mind to Shapton pro 1000 then Chosera 800 but until I try it I will have no idea.
> 
> There's so many good and bad reviews you can't seem to just shop and hope for the best. For example I saw heaps of reports to avoid Chosera because they crack easily. But then it also happens to the Shapton because of the magnesia...and because of soaking and drying, almost put me off both brands until i read into it more.


I totally understand, and i dint think anyone made stone choice more complicated than I did (just look at my threads here lol).

Only other suggestion I can think to add is that going from 800 to 5-6k can be a large gap and force a lot of extra time on the finer stone due to having to remove the deeper scratches etc.

I have found that though sometimes it is more than others depending on the steel and actual size of the scratches being removed but I have found reducing the gap by having another stone in between grits indispensable.

Plus in my case the 2k Shapton glass is also great on pocket knives and others that don't really benefit from going higher.

An example is the VG10 spyderco


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

I think it's a compromise between toothy and polished, and it's important to realize that for general kitchen use (and I'm excluding yanagiba here) there is a definite point of diminishing returns when it comes to fine grit polishing.

Be very careful with that polished knife. It will go through your skin like butter, and may slide right off your bell pepper/onion/tomato and into your finger.

When I first got my sharpening kit after reading up online I bought a Bester 1k, Rika 5k, and a Gesshin 8k. Off the 8k the bevel looked gorgeous and push cut paper great and shaved my arm better than I expected. Couldn't figure out why I had so much trouble cutting up vegetables. I bought balsa strops and loaded them with diamond spray, and the paper cutting improved and the food cutting worsened. This was a Sakai Takayuki AEB-L gyuto.

Since that time I replaced the Bester 1k with a Gesshin 2k and find that on most of my knives my overall cutting performance for general use are plenty polished enough while leaving enough tooth. For a dedicated slicer and my super hard Heiji, the Rika 5k does the job. In my opinion, if you're trying to save money, skipping the 8k stone altogether is worth considering. If you must buy a fourth stone, I would consider getting something in between the 800 and the 5k, not as a stepping stone, but you may want to not even go to 5k on some of those knives in the OP.

More video fun


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Benuser said:


> Do NOT soak ANY Chosera. You may wet it and wait a little perhaps, but that's it. Wipe it and let it dry slowly before putting away. But again, NO soaking.


You do indeed need to soak the 800/1k Chosera if you want it to perform it's best. It's not a splash and go stone. The only thing you do not want to do with a chosera is leave it on an extended soak. They are not intended to be permanent soak stones.

I find about 20 minutes is about right for the 1k. If you want splash and go stones from Naniwa then you want the SS's.

The only Chosera's you really need to be careful soaking are 5K +.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Naniwa chosera is a magnesia bound aluminum oxide type stone (most soakers are ceramic, this is NOT a soaker).  It is sold as splash and go, even down to the 400 grit.  Soaking for a short time will improve performance, no more than a few minutes.  20 is too many.  I'm thinking less than 5.

Make sure to wipe it off and also leave it in a cool dry place without sunlight to dry evenly.  If it doesn't dry evenly you can have problems like cracking.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Well there you go, 3 types of advice.  Is that helpful or are you more confused


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

The only issues I've ever seen any post until now on the Chosera have been with the 5K+ stones. All I can say is I've had mine for about 4 years with no issues. Unless I soak it 20 minutes I just have to constantly wet it. It performs poorly unless I soak it. When it reaches what seems to be it's sweet spot for water retention it becomes a different stone. TBH if others are having issues soaking these I'm not sure I would not suggest this stone as they are over $80.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks again guys... Not confusing at all, surprisingly. I told myself not to get too caught up in it all but it's way too interesting not to!

I've read more often than not that magnesia base stones shouldn't be soaked for extended periods, they are intended to be splash and go... However I did see on another forum that the Chosera box actually says to soak?!

It seems that there are many factors to take into account... Lucky for me most of my knives are vg10 with Hrc of about 58 so I don't need to think too hard about how to treat each individual knife. However I do have a Brieto m10 Moly meat slicer which I might need to care for differently. 

I did read that a key factor for stone cracking is ambient temperature fluctuating too quickly, which makes sense just like any other medium, not just stone. It doesn't snow where I live but we get the odd super hot day, so temps flux shouldn't be an issue. 

Sounds like I shouldn't bother with a 12K. I'll probably go with :

-King 220 for major repairs
-Chosera 800 (same grit as other 1000 stones)
-Shapton pro 5000 (tiny bit finer than Chosera 3000 but so much cheaper)

To my untrained eye, I'm essentially getting a 220/1000/4000 progresion... I think.

Might think about Shapton pro 8000 later, but will see how much extra it adds to my bill and shipping cost. 

Might think about immediately selling the DMT ceramic hone when it arrives as most of you are against it.

Anyone got coupon codes for 330mate? ;-)


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

As important as soaking time is drying evenly.  That's when it cracks usually.


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

Interesting that stones crack - I didn't know that and haven't experienced it.  I rinse mine and then air dry them on edge on the counter on paper towel.  They are stored in a drawer, also on paper towel, with an air gap between stones.  I have no idea what best practise is though!  

In Japan, in the busy knife shops, the stones are in and out of the water and appear to be stored wet or at least damp.  I guess they are in pretty continuous use.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It depends largely on the type of stones. Is it magnesia, resinoid, clay, ceramic etc

Here's a sticky about it on KKF by Jon http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...pening-Stones-Soaking-vs-Splash-nGo-Some-Info

Also there's a soaking chart for the more common synthetic brands: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Soaking-Chart?p=328741&viewfull=1#post328741


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

AJB Temple said:


> Interesting that stones crack - I didn't know that and haven't experienced it. I rinse mine and then air dry them on edge on the counter on paper towel. They are stored in a drawer, also on paper towel, with an air gap between stones. I have no idea what best practise is though!
> 
> In Japan, in the busy knife shops, the stones are in and out of the water and appear to be stored wet or at least damp. I guess they are in pretty continuous use.


Even when shadow-air-drying, surface micro-crackings are not unusual and won't affect the sharpening.


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

At the time I bought the Chosera Naniwa marketed this as a stone that needed to be soaked as did the major dealer for these stones. It is interesting that now the same dealer has it as a splash and go stone but at the same time says soaking is fine...just not for extended periods.

 It's hard not to notice the Chosera is also now marketed as a "Professional" stone. The box is different from mine (as are the product numbers on the stone) and it doesn't look like it comes with a Nagura any longer. I can't help but wonder if at some point over the last 4 years or so this product has changed. If it would be helpful I can post photos of mine.

Either way this has been a very interesting thread. It's remarkable how much different advice you can have about a single stone and much of that coming directly from Naniwa and the dealer.

I can't say I ever thought of a quick soak category of stones but really that seems to be what the Chosera is. If you follow the link posted to the chart on KKF the common wisdom there is soaking for 5 minutes improves performance. Interestingly enough you will also see several posters in that thread who soak the Kitayama 8K which is also sold as a splash and go, although I have never soaked my Kitayama.

I'll try adjusting my soak to 5 minutes and see if there is a difference.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks again for all the help guys. I've gone with the 220/800(1000)/5000 kit to start and we'll see how it goes!

I suspect I'll be happy if the 5000 does a reasonable polishing job.

One thing I saw was there's a bunch of cheap hongkong/chinese 10K and 12K stones floating round. Has anyone here used them? They are only about $25! I assume too good to be true. White stone with #10000 printed on side, regular size, black plastic base.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> It depends largely on the type of stones. Is it magnesia, resinoid, clay, ceramic etc
> 
> Here's a sticky about it on KKF by Jon http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...pening-Stones-Soaking-vs-Splash-nGo-Some-Info
> 
> Also there's a soaking chart for the more common synthetic brands: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Soaking-Chart?p=328741&viewfull=1#post328741


Thanks Millions... That is really useful. I'll definitely not be soaking!


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

There were some Chinese naturals being sold in that range on ebay, know nothing about them.  But the ones I just saw on ebay are slate stones, they cut very slow from what I've read.

Rick


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Talking about soaking, here's an effective demo:


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

He seems to favour the Naniwa Chosera (800) over the King (1000) on the basis that the Chosera removed metal fast whilst the King produced a lot of stone slurry.  Unfortunately he didn't comment on which stone he thought to be the most effective sharpening tool.  800 is pretty course anyway and I would expect it to remove a lot of metal quite fast.  

At least in Europe, the Chosera appears to be unavailable now, having been replaced by the Professional series (which the box describes as Professional grade series of high end stones).  

I would still like to lay my hands on a Naniwa Snow White 8000 so if anyone has any suggestions for a source I would be most grateful.  My usual source in Germany no longer lists them.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Grit numbers are deceptive, if you look at the Grand Unified chart mentioned you see that the 800 chosera is perceived as finer than the Shapton 1000.

Rick


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

He favours the Chosera, but gives an argument: the steel eats the King, the Chosera eats the steel. It's the size, the hardness of the particles, density and the binding compound what matters. Anyway, not a fair comparison given the price difference.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

BTW: i will probably spend 2 or 3 months in China beggining in April. I'll buy some carbon steel cleavers and search for natural stones.


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

AJB Temple said:


> At least in Europe, the Chosera appears to be unavailable now, having been replaced by the Professional series (which the box describes as Professional grade series of high end stones).


The Professional is the way the Chosera is now marketed. At least according to CK2G. Don't they ship to Europe? As far as the snow White goes Amazon used to carry them but I have no idea if they could ship to you.


kickling said:


> Thanks Millions... That is really useful. I'll definitely not be soaking!


As far as not soaking the Chosersa there was a bit of information being taken out of context and Dave Martel weighed in on that yesterday in another thread. In essence saying just don't leave them on Extended soak.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/21500-Chosera-1k-don-t-get-dry

FWIW I would not soak (or buy) a Chosera mounted on a base. The video shows why the Chosera can soak. It's just not going to absorb water so rapidly that you have to worry about this.


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks Duck Fat.  Amazon no longer stock the Snow White. However I have found a supplier in Australia.  

I don't really need it as I have a light blue Naniwa 10,000 professional: it is just for curiosity.  

AJ


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks.  That did not show up on an EU search, even though I asked my German wife to check!


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

DuckFat why would you not buy a stone mounted on a base?


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Stones on a base can be thinner but they can also be a pain to dry, Add to that personal preference. The only exception I can think of to this is in the past we have seen different wood working web sites offer complete sets of mounted Naniwa Super Stones. They were thin but were a very good value for a starter. The only other stone I can think of mounted at the moment is the Kitayama 8K, which I don't think comes any other way and I do own. Given a choice I would always opt for an unmounted stone. I would suggest you eventually try both so you can see first hand what your personal preference is.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Ah i see... Do you know what it's stuck to the base with? Maybe i can remove it?

As mentioned above i could also try side drying, if i run into dampness issues. 

Thanks again guys, all super interesting and helpful!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Benuser said:


> If you want a Chosera get one with a base.


Why?


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Yes, I would have thought base or no-base they should perform the same? Or is this a "drying out" issue?

Update : So in a turn of events, 330mate will not sell directly off their website even though they have a page asking for international customers to sign up! So I am going back toward one of two plans :

(1) Shapton Pro 1000 + 5000, or

(2) I found a neat kit from Stuart at Tools from Japan with Sigma Power 1000 + 6000 + Diamond Plate + Stone Holder.

I've sent Stuart a quick message to see if I can get the package minus the Diamond plate.

I have read a lot of good things about the Sigma Power range, and although not a true splash and go, from what I investigated they seem to be "quick soak" so won't be much waiting around anyway. They also don't dish too quickly ... but has anyone had experience with the Sigma Power 1000 or 6000 stones, and possibly provide their opinion?

Cheers guys.


----------



## ajb temple (Feb 2, 2015)

The Sigma stones don't use a binding agent. I had one (still have somewhere) that was used for sharpening chisels for woodworking. It cut _very_ fast but also dished very quickly too. The honing guide that I used for chisels at the time wore grooves in the stone too, which surprised me as it was on a roller bearing. You get a lot of slurry. Probably not an ideal stone if you plan to sharpen a lot of knives regularly. Otherwise ...any stones will work, they just work differently.


----------



## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

kickling said:


> I would have thought base or no-base they should perform the same? Or is this a "drying out" issue?


There's no reason they would perform different. Just pay attention to the size of the stones. Stones on a base can be a pain to dry however the Chosera's come with a plastic base so that should be less of an issue. If you want mounted Chosera's there are dealers on eBay selling them and they appear to be the older style stones that come with a Nagura.

If you ever encounter micro-cracks a mounted stone could be more stable. However if you break a stone (bang it against the sink, drop it etc) an unmounted stone can usually be rounded off and saved. In short you can go round-and-round with Pro's and Con's which is why I think it's best to try different stones/methods so you can develop your own work flow and preferences.


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

That vendor also carries the Suehiro Rika 5k for significantly less money than the others you've been considering. I've had this stone for a few years now and though I haven't tried a Shapton or Naniwa, I've never felt a need to upgrade it. Perhaps one of the more experienced members on here can compare this finisher to the others you've mentioned.

It cuts well, has a nice creamy feel with good feedback and leaves a nice polish for a lot less. This is a soaking stone and can be left in water indefinitely.

Here's a link to Dave Martell's store with his thoughts on it as well as some customer reviews. http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Suehiro-Rika-5000x-5k-sharpening-stone-p/suerika5k.htm

Happy shopping


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Awesome advice guys... Another option to think about just when i thought i was set! I like the idea of it acting as a 3K and 5K.

Kartman35: Do you know if the Rika can be used as a splash and go and stored dry? I assume from your comment that you permasoak yours? And your feedback on how fast it dishes?

Cheers again everyone!


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

.


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

kickling said:


> Awesome advice guys... Another option to think about just when i thought i was set! I like the idea of it acting as a 3K and 5K.
> 
> Kartman35: Do you know if the Rika can be used as a splash and go and stored dry? I assume from your comment that you permasoak yours? And your feedback on how fast it dishes?
> 
> Cheers again everyone!


No, this cannot be used as a splash and go, it requires a good 20-30 minutes soaking. Contrary to some soakers, 20-30 minutes seems like enough. For example, my Bester 1k also is said to need 15-20 minutes, but I have found it works significantly better after an overnight soak. If I try to use it (Bester) after even an hour soaking, I need to squirt water very often to keep it wet. If I remember right he Rika stayed moist after half an hour or so soaking.

And yes, I permasoak mine. I got into that habit because of the Bester requiring such a long soak. I find that it's more convenient this way than having to find somewhere to dry them where they won't get knocked over. I just keep a large tupperware container filled with water and my 3 stones ready to go all the time. If I had to travel with my stones (bring them to work or whatever) I could see the point in splash and go's, but as they always stay here for me I find it easier to just keep soakers soaking.

As far as the dishing goes I don't feel like it dishes particularly fast, however this is the only finishing stone I've used much so can't really compare to the others you're considering. This is a very popular stone though so I'm sure someone will chime in with their thoughts. I like it because it feels really nice when sharpening on it and it's so much cheaper than Shapton or Chosera.

From the Tools from Japan website, Chosera 5k is 13,500 JPY and Rika is 3,500. Shapton is 5995 but only 15mm thick.

Do the others perform THAT much better? I can't say for sure but I doubt it.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

So whilst I await my delivery (ended up getting the Rika instead of Sigma 6000) just a quick and probably stupid question... Do I sharpen my Global bread knife on these stones the same as the other knives? It's single sided.

I have seen special tools you can buy, kind of like a tiny sharpening steel that (I assume) is used in between the teeth.

Not that the bread knife needs sharpening any time soon, but it was a thought!


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You round or otherwise shape an edge of the stone to match the tooth profile.

Rick


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks, I'll have to do some googling and youtubing!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

I use round sharpening rods like these:





  








images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEPy-FyH2ESPfJ5yc_OLKcoPTA6SSUf




__
ordo


__
Feb 13, 2015


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

I'd like to thank all those who contributed to helping my education on the whole whetstone choosing process! I've received my set (King 220, Sigma 1000, Rika 5000) and started giving them a go ... wow, it's a lot harder than I thought!

I'm starting out by using a sharpening guide so I can learn what the result is after using these stones. Then I'll start practicing without it.

From a couple of go's so far, I'm happy with the polish from the Rika. My edge is shiny but not 100% mirror finish, but good enough (and will hopefully get better as my skill improves). I'm also getting a lot of "straight bits" where I'm obviously putting too much pressure on one spot or the knife edge is not 100% flat on the stone.

I also need to practice a lot on getting the tip/end-curve of the knife done properly.

Thanks again! Time to go watch more Youtube guides!


----------



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Kickling now the fun begins 

Sounds like your on a good track so far, and just being able to see and later feel when things are not just right is a big step and will provide great feedback to future changes to your technique. 

Far as the tip area is concerned I think most all have difficulty at least in the beginning and I still have to be careful to be sure to change my angle against the stone to avoid changing the actual angle of the edge at the tip.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

A tip for the tip: grab the blade near the tip, not from the handle. It will give you much more sharpening control.


----------



## kickling (Jan 30, 2015)

Cool, thanks guys. Fun times ahead!


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

so i've got pretty good at producing a slicing edge on my knives. But i got a Nakiri recently, and the blade was pretty dull brand new, and i want to put a very sharp polished edge on it. And haven't had much luck freehanding it. Any tips? i have a 220, 1000, 5000, and 8000 grit water stones.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

When I started sharpening a lot of my results were dumb luck.  If you're not checking for the burr, then you might have the same experience.  Counting strokes, or going at it blindly are not the way. Are you producing a burr and then removing it? 

For 220 and 1000 grit raise a burr you can feel with your fingers if you touch the opposite side (careful not to cut yourself, go towards the edge and don't let your finger roll over).  Once you've produced a burr on the first side, do the same for the other.  Then before you finish on that stone and proceed to a finer stone, flip sides a few times with progressively lighter pressure.  This should knock off a lot of the burr.

Pretty much rinse and repeat up your stone progression.  At higher grits, you will be producing smaller and smaller burr, not noticeable by touch.  And at 5000+, really you're just polishing and won't raise much of a burr.  You can check your progress by scratch pattern and shine.

Now about this nakiri, what price range are we talking about?  What maker and vendor?  Everything I bought from JKI were really good out of the box;  good bevels that you can follow along sharpening.  Stuff from CKTG, ebay, or used, I pretty much set my own bevel immediately.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

What maker?  What steel?  How thick behind the edge?

Rick


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> What maker? What steel? How thick behind the edge?
> 
> Rick


tojiro dp damascus 165mm

bought it off ebay. probably not going to get that seller again, in addition to blade not being very sharp, the image isn't a good representation of the product. the image clearly shows the damascus design on the entire height of the blade, when in reality, its like a 3/4 inch portion with the damascus design. Unless its just a damascus core and if i thin the top it would show... http://www.ebay.com/itm/221511615838?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


----------



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

MillionsKnives said:


> When I started sharpening a lot of my results were dumb luck. If you're not checking for the burr, then you might have the same experience. Counting strokes, or going at it blindly are not the way. Are you producing a burr and then removing it?
> 
> For 220 and 1000 grit raise a burr you can feel with your fingers if you touch the opposite side (careful not to cut yourself, go towards the edge and don't let your finger roll over). Once you've produced a burr on the first side, do the same for the other. Then before you finish on that stone and proceed to a finer stone, flip sides a few times with progressively lighter pressure. This should knock off a lot of the burr.
> 
> ...


I can't argue with that, but still find counting strokes therapeutic, and part of the monotonous type stress relief that sharpening can be 

Also is it not interesting to explain how to feel for a burr. I have never been comfortable posting on this without a novel followed by a disclaimer lol. Have to continue to address it though because it is so important, and whenever I get a tough one I just remind myself of the Henckels that drove me here in the first place.

"Hold that angle, and chase and remove that burr"


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

not very good at feeling for burr, but at least when i switch sides and a bit of metal comes off, i know i got one...


----------



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Just a couple quick thoughts to keep in mind

As mentioned previously it becomes much more difficult to feel a burr as they become ever so small as you get into the finer stones. They are still there though, and with the help of magnification they can be pretty obvious.

Removing a burr when still on more coarse stones is seriously important to not add insane levels of work trying to remove on the next finer stone. Since if you leave a burr from the previous stone you are in a way trying to polish it away on the finer stone. Even though a more polished burr may present itself as being very sharp it is one of those things that can drive a new sharpener nuts.


----------



## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

Atatax said:


> not very good at feeling for burr, but at least when i switch sides and a bit of metal comes off, i know i got one...


When you first start sharpening one side of a knife, keep going until you feel a burr. On your 220 and 1000 you should easily be able to feel it. If you're not sure you can feel it sharpen more until you can. Then and only then switch sides. At first you may need to sharpen more than would be ideal, but you NEED that feedback. The more you sharpen, the better you'll be able to feel smaller burrs. Don't throw your hands up and say you're 'not good at feeling' the burr. This is what you need to learn. This is the whole thing. It's all about the burr.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

thanks for the advice, finished a sharpening on it and definately my best sharpening job so far. Not sure how good it is compared to what it can be simply because no one else at works uses stones to sharpen their blades.


----------



## jerry denim (Jul 23, 2015)

> When I first got my sharpening kit after reading up online I bought a Bester 1k, Rika 5k, and a Gesshin 8k. Off the 8k the bevel looked gorgeous and push cut paper great and shaved my arm better than I expected. Couldn't figure out why I had so much trouble cutting up vegetables.


This thread is looks to be dead but I just want to jump in here and tell any noobs to J-knives and waterstones to listen to Kartman here. Its sounds as if Kartman and I have walked the exact same path. I whole-heartedly agree with his advice. The problem with forums like this is most people on them are out of control knife nerds and compulsive consumers in love with buying expensive knives and sharpening equipment and then playing with their sharpening equipment and fancy knives. I think serious cooks have better things to do with their days than debate the merits of 12k natural stones or arm shaving technique. Asking for advice from "experts" that sell knives and stones themselves turns into a knife forum echo chamber because they won't necessarily steer you wrong, but the more knife accessories you buy the better it is for them. If someone really wants to get the best shave a man can get from a $500 dollar gyuto why should a guy who is in the knife biz not talk up that 12k stone, special stone holder and special stropping compound if the potential customer wants to buy it anyway?

I would say for your typical kitchen knife anything past a 3000 grit edge is overkill. I have a 5k Suehiro Rika and it does have a nice sharpening feel to it, but honestly my thin edged J-knives cut food better with just a 1k edge. Yeah the 5k edge shaves better, push cuts paper etc. but it's too polished and not toothy/aggressive enough to effortlessly slice a thick-skinned ripe tomato. So do ya wanna shave or do you wanna cook with that gyuto? The 5k edge will also glide through your finger quite nicely and as a parallel to that if you plan on primarliy cutting sashimi with your knife then by all means go crazy with the high grit stones and super polished edges.

The more polished your edge (higher grit finish) the shorter amount of time your knife will keep that edge as most of the tooth has already been polished out before it even hits your cutting board for the first time. A lower grit/less polished edge will cut more aggressively and it will hold its edge longer before it needs resharpening. To me it seems as the finer/thinner my knife blade becomes the more course of a grit becomes optimum. My thick hefty German knives seem to be at their best with a between 3k and 5k while my paper thin Sakai Yusuke seems to be at its best between 1 and 2k. Some of this is personal, but most of what I'm saying is fact. There is definitely a type of person that frequents knife forums and doesn't want to admit they waste a lot of time and money on sharpening stones etc. that are unnecessary at best and most likely counter-productive. These people are probably delusional and don't know it, but a few others probably do know better but have a motivation to move product.

Anyway, I agree with Hartman. Anything above 3k, especially on a thin J-knife is a waste unless you want to primarily slice sashimi or some other very soft fleshy product. Too much polish equals a functionally duller blade in the kitchen. Spend at your peril.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

> Jerry Denim says:
> 
> This thread is looks to be dead but I just want to jump in here and tell any noobs to J-knives and waterstones to listen to Kartman here. Its sounds as if Kartman and I have walked the exact same path. I whole-heartedly agree with his advice. The problem with forums like this is most people on them are out of control knife nerds and compulsive consumers in love with buying expensive knives and sharpening equipment and then playing with their sharpening equipment and fancy knives. I think serious cooks have better things to do with their days than debate the merits of 12k natural stones or arm shaving technique. Asking for advice from "experts" that sell knives and stones themselves turns into a knife forum echo chamber because they won't necessarily steer you wrong, but the more knife accessories you buy the better it is for them. If someone really wants to get the best shave a man can get from a $500 dollar gyuto why should a guy who is in the knife biz not talk up that 12k stone, special stone holder and special stropping compound if the potential customer wants to buy it anyway?
> 
> ...


Amen, Brother.

I'm impressed with super sharp knives and the latest steel etc etc but in the end... a knife is just a way to cut stuff to cook.

This is a completely counter-culture message you send; I hope you survive long enough to tell your viewpoint a second time. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Jerry Denim said:


> Anyway, I agree with Hartman. Anything above 3k, especially on a thin J-knife is a waste unless you want to primarily slice sashimi or some other very soft fleshy product. Too much polish equals a functionally duller blade in the kitchen. Spend at your peril.


I hear this a whole lot, from home cooks as well as professionals. So why is this?

For one, and here is a slight mystery for me, I personally have never experienced a knife that cuts better at 3K than it does at off an 8K+ stone, even on German stainless. Is it simply the way I sharpen? Or the way I cut (which from all appearances is as many good pros do things). Fact is I have heard a number of professionals argue both ends of not only what level of finish cuts better but also which edge hold up better, and even depending that on what is being cut. I have to say that those having bad results with the higher grits are simply just polishing their edges without ever actually getting them keen, ie, actually reducing the width of the edge's apex, which is what refining an edge is really all about. This part of sharpening is, of course, the most technique intensive. Equipment plays in also. I have a very fine vintage Arkansas I use for finishing, particularly with soft stainless. I fine diamond loaded strop would be even better.

The other point is not any mystery to me. The fact is that even many professionals it seems do not even know what very desirable, completely food altering things can be done with a really sharp knife that would be absolutely impossible to do with some piece of German stainless off a 1K or 3K stone. I have elaborated these things elsewhere more recently and since this is a very old post I'll just leave this for any who care to contemplate this however they like.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I go up to 6k for dpuble bevels and use less pressure. It's easy to use too much pressure on finishing stones in a counter productive way


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes, that's something I learned rather recently.  I know get fairly fine edges with my 6K by finishing, after thorough and light deburring runs, with very light stropping strokes, works particularly well with the SRS-15 knife I recently purchased.  But with the soft stuff I still find I need the Ark for decent finishing.

Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

So once again I find myself wondering why a six month old thread suddenly shows up with new messages in my in box.  And as usual, I find great content and thank all the previous contributors.  I did my first real sharpening on my new Hiromoto gyuto and found it to be both frustrating and wondrous.  I used #400 and #1000.  I felt the burr and when done, surely longer than it should have taken, was slicing through apples, tomatoes and onions with ease.  This morning I cut my Charentais melon with nary a snag.  So while it may not have been the best sharpening job, it was a great learning experience and I expect to get much better with practice.

Thank you Jerry, you're saying what amateur home cooks like me need to hear.  It's not necessarily about the latest and greatest but about getting the performance you need from the tools you have.  I understand more about the burr today so have a goal for my next sharpening session.

MG


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

IETinker said:


> ...
> 
> Thank you Jerry, you're saying what amateur home cooks like me need to hear. It's not necessarily about the latest and greatest but about getting the performance you need from the tools you have. ...


Interestingly, what Jerry says is what most professionals already know and do. So it, indeed, is a good model for success. The extremist approaches are largely promulgated by non-professionals who have a zen for maximizing what is possible. I'm not criticizing that except when it comes to an assumption that no other opinion/experience exists or is valid. Most pros (or former pros) that I know tend to draw the line a lot lower at a "good enough" criteria... but not compromising quality as some seem to imply


----------



## jerry denim (Jul 23, 2015)

> This is a completely counter-culture message you send; I hope you survive long enough to tell your viewpoint a second time.


Ha! Thanks Brian. Truthfully I didn't expect my post to even make it past the moderator and I figured I would be shouted down quickly. I didn't intend to come off as some uppity d*%k who was laying down the final word in sharpening advice, but I did take firm aim at the "culture" you speak of. My intention wasn't to pick a fight or change anyone's mind about their personal sharpening regime, I just wanted to second Kartman35's sage advice and share some hard-won wisdom with less experienced knife and sharpening enthusiasts who may be beginning their journey with water stones and Japanese knives. I wanted to share knowledge that I wish someone would have shared with me before I bought a bunch of water stones and sharpening supplies I didn't need when I was inexperienced and excited about J-knives and sharpening.

There is no 'right' end point in sharpening concerning grits, but there is a point of diminishing returns and there is a point where polishing becomes counterproductive. Where that point is depends on the knife in question and what you want to cut. I have grave doubts that point lies anywhere beyond 6k for a kitchen knife though. A more polished edge is a less aggressive edge and a less durable one that will need touch-ups and resharpening more frequently. This is all 100% true and the people who don't want to admit to this are either deluding themselves or they have crap they want to sell.

Everyone should do what they want though. If you enjoy sharpening very expensive and exquisite knives with an endless array of exotic natural stones and compounds so you can make the world's thinnest microscope samples, that's awesome. Good for you, go for it. My post was aimed at the person without a lot of sharpening experience who wants a fearsome edge to fly through peppers, onions and tomatoes but doesn't want to waste time or money with unnecessary and possibly counterproductive sharpening gear.

I'm out.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Ahahaha, Jerry, if all you want to do is cut a hunk of cantaloupe without much trouble then virtually any NSF knife will do.  Others here though should contemplate more seriously what constitutes a mere opinion or serious lack of specific knowledge and understanding concerning food preparation.

Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

So who's volunteering to come to my home home and show me proper sharpening technique? I've got about 800 bottles of wine to choose from while we're at it. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif (not that wine and sharp knives are such a good idea)

MG


----------



## jerry denim (Jul 23, 2015)

> Ahahaha, Jerry, if all you want to do is cut a hunk of cantaloupe without much trouble then virtually any NSF knife will do. Others here though should contemplate more seriously what constitutes a mere opinion or serious lack of specific knowledge and understanding concerning food preparation.


Yep. That's the sort of reply I was expecting. Lacking logic, reason and knowledge to refute my claims I see a vague ad hominem cast in my direction and a cantaloupe lobbed as a straw man.

I've been free-hand sharpening kitchen knives for twenty plus years. I've achieved hair-peeling levels of blade sharpness that felt as if they could dissect a single human cell using 8k water stones and loaded strops, but in the kitchen I've found those edges to be under-performers. For me the measure of an edge on a kitchen knife is in the kitchen, so if that highly polished 8k, diamond paste stropped edge effortlessly shaves my arm but doesn't bite down on an onion skin, for me, as an end user of kitchen knives I find that edge to be too polished for my purposes. I don't believe it's incorrect to judge the edge on a kitchen knife based on how it cuts in the kitchen, and I won't apologize for it. Right now on my knife rack there are two japanese gytuos and one petty knife that will shave hair with ease AND slide through a tough onion skin with the greatest of ease. None of these fine, high-performing edges were created with anything finer than a 2k stone. Even better these edges are quite durable and will last for some time. Whatever Rick wants to do with his knives in the privacy of his own home with his "very fine vintage Arkansas" (whetstone?) and loaded strops is up to him, but my "knowledge and understanding " has not been causing me any problems in the kitchen. Quite the contrary. I get the exact results I want, but I've found those results by taking a step back from extreme edge polishing I had used myself in the past. Your personal mileage may vary, but I'm posting because I think a lot of people just getting into knife sharpening would like to know they don't need to spend a thousand dollars or more on exotic, high-grit polishing stones and strops to achieve an optimum edge for kitchen use.

I believe good sharpening advice is clear, easy to understand and will stand up to empiricism. Top secret, unexplainable "techniques" and other obscurest vagaries only add noise and misdirection to the conversation.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

IETinker you are actually the one I was addressing about the cantaloupe, not you Jerry sorry for any misunderstanding, never used diamond paste so can't personally comment on how onion skins take to it, not really talking about sharpening skills but what to do with a sharp knife, and IETinker you are certainly talking the right currency so far as I'm concerned, but how far are you from the south of Boston area?

Well never mind that for the moment, There's something needs initial consideration, namely, how do you feel better sharpening skills are going to impact your enjoyment of cooking, along with the food itself?

For instance, it is certainly true that many chefs don't know of a knife other than German stainless sharpened on anything higher than a 3K, and that it also does not significantly impact the quality of the food they make, in perhaps most cases. I cringed a bit when I saw the Franklin BBQ guy turn his nice brisket into semi-hash with an nsf bread knife. And Notice I said the quality of the food that THEY make. Just what it is they are cutting, and the minimum requirements of that cutting.

Then you might consider what a really sharp knife would do for the ease and speed your typical daily prep. A really sharp knife probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to the cooks mentioned just above, but I couldn't even produce the things I make on a daily basis with such a knife. Things absolutely essential to the textures and flavor profiles that I, and many professional chefs, greatly desire.

Just a limited number of personal examples: Without a very sharp knife I couldn't slice my onions to less than 1mm thickness, or do it cleanly, or at all; Nor my celery, shallots and garlic to


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Chum?


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Hum?


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Yum?


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Anyways, as a novice with knife sharpening, im discovering angle effects cutting performance much more than which grit i sharpen to. 

Also, i have a ceramic steel coming tomorrow, do they warrant comparable care as ceramic knives? Something that could break if my knife bag smacked against a wall too hard ?


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Yah they are fragile. I have enough knives that I just bring a backup instead of a honing rod.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Ditto


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

There is an interaction between stone grit and blade angle. It's not one or the other in terms of importance per se. But in general I see the same as Atax where smaller angle seems sharper than finely honed bigger angle.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Atatax, since I started doing more aggressive work on the board I have taken some to Benuser's advice and strop on a fine stone, essentially removing the damaged edge instead of just straightening it, though still use the rod for convenience as the waterstone I use for this is not a spalsh'n go and doesn't take well to working dry.

In your case you might consider trying a diamond loaded strop. They are light and won't break, Just keep it in a plastic bag, and you can select just the grit that suites you best. US Products sells diamond slurry fairly cheap, but might want to to let it settle and siphon off some of the water as it is a bit more dilute than other products you'll pay many times the price for. That just for no other reason than having your strop dry faster.


Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Well Alan, I wish I could say I was closer, I think we'd have a wonderful evening and lively discussion. Alas, IE in the moniker refers to the Inland Empire area east of Los Angeles. While my co-worker is from Boston, I don't get out there very often but the invitation is open if you're ever on the this left coast. My daughter is in York, PA, perhaps a side tripe next time I'm out that way.

So Brian, that makes you the next candidate for instructor. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

As for the question of how sharp do I need something the answer there is a definite yes. For me, cooking is a new hobby and a skill I wish to acquire and grow. When I was married, I was the prep and really not involved with meal generation beyond chopping stuff up. My ex was pretty adamant that she was doing the cooking and that chopping and dishes were my realm. For the last 10-15 years, I've been making my own meals and learning about ingredients; what goes together and building on my meager skills. Most of this has been in terms of being able to feed myself and I've been making things from recipes but no real creativity, just replicating other's ideas. The past few years however I feel comfortable that I can actually throw a few dishes together and have it come out edible. I'm cooking more for family and friends, dinner parties for 6-8 and feel I have to get beyond the basics - I want to get beyond the basics. My knife skills still need work, nowhere near the "machine gun" speeds you refer to, but I now have the need for finely sliced onions and garlic, not just diced and minced, and being able to work with larger amounts of ingredients and dispatch them quickly is becoming more of a need. Cooking for one can be pretty simple and quick and even a dull knife will result in a nutritious albeit ugly meal. I now want to work with textures, presentation and a better blended result for what I put on the table. I'm making my first pastrami this weekend and thinking about what else to do with it and accompany it.

And yes, reds are my passion although there's something perfect about a crisp sauvignon blanc during prep. Cabernet, Syrah and some interesting Italian varietals like Teroldego, Mourvedre and Nebbiolo. I've been collecting for about 15 years now and have quite a selection. My girlfriend asks why I stay on these clubs and continue to buy. My answer is that I have to have enough so that when I retire and can't afford to buy great wines anymore, I'll have enough to last me.

So we're quite off topic but I appreciate the discussion and your questions are quite valid. The answers truly are more than because I want it.

MG


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

IEtinker, I've been busy with some technical writing, and that typically keeps me away from here in large part when it happens. I am involved in autism remediation, and the only reason I bring that up is what I always find myself saying to professionals in the field as well as lay persons is that remediation work here is not rocket science. Principles and concepts can both be explained in simple language and applied by anyone of ordinary intelligence. Of course a lot of professionals do not like to hear that., let alone have their prospective clients hear that. Nor do they like to hear that they are completely ignorant of essential concepts and principles. But fact is they always are. The soft sciences are so terribly immature.

Anyway the same lack of being rocket science goes for knife sharpening. To borrow a line from another member here, "We work in kitchens, it's not rocket sugery."

Here is a video of Jon performing what is perhaps the most critical task in sharpening, effectively eliminating the burr, at least that's the way I look at it because the process as it seems for me is a short down hill stropping run from here.






Watch this, watch his other videos. You will then have all the instruction you need because, as said, its basic kitchen work, not rocket surgery.

I'd add one thing as I don't know if Jon actually mentions it, but to hold a consistent angle you will keep a thumb, and/or a finger or two, near the edge of the blade, this widens your base of support and better control naturally follows.

All right back to other stuff.

Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks once again Rick.  I've watched several of the JKI videos and it's really just a lot of practice now. And yes, holding the knife I have fingers long the edge, thumb or forefinger along the spine.

Michael


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

I am personally more of a beer guy, but after this thread, i picked up a cabernet; gotta say im impressed..


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

It's the King of grapes.



Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Maybe we need to start a wine thread. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif But while Cabernet is the king, there are many many more that offer just as great an experience.

Michael


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I like Cabs but my latest interest has been Ports. Quaffing a 2002 Chateau Julien right now.


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

I went on a port kick a few years ago and now have these and other dessert wines coming out the wazoo. LOL  There are a lot of late harvest zinfandels that are just delicious and one of my favorites, Dulce from Far Niente.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

My favorite port so far was Justin's 2000 Obtuse, cab grapes BION, not as complex as some but Electric Coolaide!

I need to try some of the vintage 2011 stuff.  I went bargain hunting for it a couple years ago but got distracted.

Rick


----------



## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

I have some late 80s ports I've been sitting on a whole bunch from my 10 year ago binge; some vintage, other's not.  And there's other stuff like tawney that doesn't age but won't go bad either.  Let us know how the 2011 turns out.

BTW, I'm off tomorrow to vacation with the kids at a lake in MO next week.  Already shipped out 1/2 case of assorted to keep us in wine on the water. I'll most likely be incommunicado for a bit.

MG


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Enjoy!


----------



## bcycler (Apr 29, 2010)

Well, it's been years since I chimed in and at that time I was asking much the same, questions about good knives and sharpening. I bought a few stones and got to the point of at least getting knives passable sharp including a reasonable Henckles but never as sharp as they should be. I couldn't ever bring myself to spend more money on good knives if I couldn't already sharpen the ones I had to an acceptable level so I muddled on. 

A few months back I bought the Wusthof branded version of the Chef's Choice 3 stage knife sharpener with some reluctance as I already had a much older Chef's Choice that I had never been happy with. What sold me on giving it a try was the different angle, it use the Wusthof PETech 14 deg angle and boy what a revelation. Now, I'm not using this on super quality Asian knives so I can't comment on how they might fare but even on the worst of my old knives (and we are talking a couple of Woolworth Quality knives if anyone remembers the old nickle and dime store) it brought them to tomato slicing sharp, albeit in some cases with a pass or two of the steel before use.

The Henckles, by my standards got closer to wicked sharp, as in I'm not testing this on arm hair because I don't want to filet myself sharp.  Since I did get something of a resolution to my original question, I thought I'd throw in my review and add a thanks to boar_d_laze and other folks kind enough to respond to my original posts.


----------

