# Getting Fed Up with ILLEGAL home bakers



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

The illegal home bakers in my area have never had any respect from me but now that it has gotten to the point where it is actually affecting my revenue.

This year especially has annoyed me. Just this week we had two brides forfit their downpayment to go with home bakers. Both are using our flavors and designs and time. One joker actually told our customer that they would be able to do it cheaper because they didn't have to pay for all that advertising. Haven't paid for advert ever! 20 yrs.

After some research we found that almost 50% of the local websites for wedding cakes and catering don't have kitchens. Some of these criminals are even set up at local bridal shows. Something I've never done. Along with some other bakeries we are taking measures to identify these( I don't want to use the word criminal BUT it is totally against the law to prepare food in our state for the public to consume).

There is a bill right now in the state legislation to allow a cottage baking permit to the home. I don't have a problem with that if it passes. Their claim is that they don't use hazordus ingredients. Eggs? hello! If passed they will have to make their home pass inspection and have sanitation education. I pay 400 dollars a year to have mine inspected.

This has gotten so out of hand. Most all office catering has gone under the radar. I can't imagine the amount of revenue being taken out of the industry. There can't be any tax paid on this if it's illegal income. They can't possably have liability or any insurance. Almost all the power behind the bill is from those already doing it illegal. I just can't justify giving them amnisty.

THE FACT IS THERE ARE ONLY SIXTEEN STATES THAT ALLOW ANY FOOD ITEMS PREPARED OUT OF A HOME INSPECTED KITCHEN TO FEED THE PUBLIC. There is a very good reason for this. This also includes giving food away-no charge wink wink or for friends.

This is another reason why the current wedding cake book up for review exist. I'm absolutLY sure the author only targeted those sixteen states!!!! And I'm sure there is a chapter on sanitation.

I PERSONALLY THINK THESE ARE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY THE SMALL BUSINESS ASPECT OF THIS INDUSTRY IS CRUMBLING FAST.

WE HAVE NO FINANCIAL OR GOVERNMENT RESPECT AS IT IS.

It is very hard for me to offer anything positive to those wanting to start a small buainess the right way.

*The end result is that the customer suffers and a mediocre product becomes the norm.*

This is just a rant but I hope sends a message to those that need one.

Panini

I would really like to see some sort of requirement to post a bio and location to participate at ChefTalk true or not.

but I also understand why they don't.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

Why do you think home bakers are thriving?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Imho they'll thrive until a deadly salmonella outbreak is traced back to an uninspected kitchen.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Granny Smith,

I did not hear anything about legal home bakers are thriving. But if you are talking about illegal home bakers it's easy.

If they can undercut legal businesses and have no overhead, NO TAXES,and no required monies to meet Fed-state and local laws,technology to meet government requirements, insurances, etc. They would have to be complete idiots not to be thriving.

Granny, I'm sorry to sound rude but if someone you know that is selling to the public, they are breaking the laws in your state.

It's no different than other crimes, they are criminals. The worst part of this is that these people have no clue how they open up themselves to losing every their family owns and might be garnished financially for the rest of their lives.

I guess I'll take this time to answer a few sizzling emails.

1.I am not against home baking! I actually think it is needed in bigger states outside city limits. Logistics require us to stay within our limits and venues. There is a need for home bakers in the more rural areas.

   2. I make no monies on a deposit that is forfitted. We have only charged a 100. dollar deposit for the last 12 years to hold your date. This does not even cover the hour design and tasting we provide. Technically the contract is signed with the deposit. I absolutely don't have any animosity towards those that decide to go elsewhere. I would never hold them to their contract.  We invite them to go where they are comfortable.I will and have returned deposits when asked. My problem is I now have 2 empty spots for the date that translates into thousands lost. I have five families to support.

   3.Oklahoma baker. Your words speak volumes about your personality. I hate to tell you this but it is illegal to play business in your state. Getting away with it does not nake it ok. nuff said

Panini


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## pastrycake (Sep 11, 2005)

oh panini, I am in dallas as well. I don't sell anything but only bake for fun.  I often participate in bake sales.  I hope to open a cupcake shop or bakery someday but what is the point if anyone can sell from home kitchen.  Home kitchen mean less overhead costs which will make it more attractive to clients.  In that case, I will open my shop when I am ready to "live to bake" and not worry about making a profit.  But I don't know if that day will ever come.  I hope the law will be more favorable for the legit baking business.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

Panini, for the record, I agree with you, but I understand why some people are using these illegal home bakers, too. I live in an area with extremely high unemployment (in excess of 20%). For special occasions, when a person isn't great at baking or decorating, many here are turning to these illegal bakers. From my observations, their work is often sub-par, but it's all about the money.

Also for the record, I am a retired baker, caterer, cook, and restaurant manager.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Granny,

   For the record, I'm not posting to bash. I wouldn't do it here. I've been lurking around CT for 10 years. Just trying to bring an awareness to what I think is a growing problem affecting small business in food. There are a lot of people here wanting to follow their dream to ownership..

It may look like it's all about the money but I think it's more about etiquette and professionalism. The economy and unemployment affects everyone especially small business.

There are plenty of ways to be creative and earn extra income without breaking the law. If I was a small dairy farmer I wouldn't park in front of the grocery store and hail shoppers exiting, pssst hey, go put that milk back, I'll sell you one of my gallons for half that price. I know..a ridiculous referenceLOL it's late.It's wrong and dangerous.

   There are many bakers in our area. You might know some from Food Network, Bronwen Weber, Lauren from Fancy Cakes. We would never attempt to take somebodys client.

We all have our niches and we actually refer to them for certain types of cakes. Exchange Holiday Greetings.

Trust me, things could be better. Fact is, our pricing is 10% lower then Grocery stores.

I just don't see how these people can justify breaking the law, stealing from small business, government, employees and show up at Church on Sunday. These are the same

hippocrate yahoos that complain they are on unemployment because the bread winners job has been outsourced to someone who will do it cheaper.

But what do I know? Things are going in the crapper and I'm working on building a new production kitchen.

Granny, always read your posts.

Pastrycakes, you hang in there. Where there is a will there is a way. I'll return your PM. I like the donut idea.

Panini


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Unfortunately the same thing exists with home caterers. People who cook food and sell to parties and such from their home kitchens.

All it would take would be for one person to get sick and sue. The law would take everything that person owned and they would be in bad shape forever.

People just don't get it. All they think about is the money.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

Panini, I think I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean it was all about the money for legal bakers, but for the illegal ones. They sell for cash, but don't claim it on their taxes. So, in essence, they're making at least 25% more than if they'd done it legally.

Believe it or not, there are people near me who sell milk straight from the cow and they have people clamoring for it. They also sell homemade butter and buttermilk. I've bought it a few times, but was not satisfied with the quality and had serious questions about the seller's cleanliness. In case you didn't guess, selling uninspected dairy products is also illegal - and for good reason.


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## jims (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm one of those folks who buys raw milk. The legal workaround for the dairy farmer is to sell "shares" of the cow. Kind of like a bovine timeshare. Every industry seems to have it's share of people who try to work under the table, whether legal or illegal. I owned a retail store for nearly two decades. It seemed like people would pop up selling out of their garage almost weekly. Once the internet took off, things got even worse.  Eventually, the suppliers had to crack down on who they would do business with in order to protect their real customers and the industry as a whole. It's unfortunate that bakers can get everything they need at the local warehouse store.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

JimS said:


> The legal workaround for the dairy farmer is to sell "shares" of the cow. Kind of like a bovine timeshare.


Here, they sell it as 'pet food' (wink, wink) I don't know anyone who gives it to their pets.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

LOL

Where do you guys live?

I guess you can tell I'm a city boy. Dallas is as country as I get.

Reading up on our Baking Bill.

No requirements for the kitchen. No grease traps, FRP,Sinks,ventilation, no Food Service Manager Cert. just food handlers permit like the guys hawking dogs at the park,nothing etc.

The Health Department is allowed to visit to make sure they are not doing more then 250,000.00 annually.

At this point I hope it passes. I'll tie my Beagles in front of the store and tell the HealthD to scram, this is where I live.;>D

pan


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Well heck.  I'd be getting rid of the sanitizer, tossing grease down the drain, smoking in the kitchen, etc.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well even if I did it doesn't bother me as much as chicken/meat up high,  Medicine, Left overs, flowers, the gross list goes on in the family fridge. Don't think it's not going to happen.

It's a fact that most all  Food Borne Illness occures in the home. People rarely get sick from eating out of a liscenced and inspected kitchen. I'm still trying to figure out how eggs

aren't a potentially dangerous food. I have had inspectors crack and check the temp of raw egg. There are more people then ever with surpressed immune systems.

I'll stop my rant LOL

pan

oh wait, there's little Tommy with his hands in his poopy diaper headed to the fridge to get his sippy bottle.

I don't lump everybody together. I know there are plenty of people practicing proper sanitation at home and they know it's work

and it isn't always common sense.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm a little more than 50 miles from Lexington, KY, 30 miles from a small city, and 10 miles from a small town. I guess you could say I live in the boonies. The only neighbors I can see from my house or yard are cows (Herefords, specifically).

Sanitation is one reason I won't sell food from home, even though I've been asked to many times. I know how to set up a proper kitchen that would pass inspection, but I don't have control over everybody else that lives here and can't guarantee that they wouldn't do something gross (with 5 teenagers, I can almost assure you that they would)

For the classes I've been considering teaching, I would have access to a commercial kitchen that is inspected regularly. IMO, it's the only way.


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## sherrycakes (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm honestly shocked by how laid back Ohio's cottage industry laws are. I'm originally from Indiana, and had a catering company that I ran out of my best friend/catering partner's kitchen. I'd never even heard of cottage laws before I came here and am in the process of getting a home bakery license. I joined a local cake club and at the first meeting I attended, I could tell they were offended I was going the extra step to getting an inspection and home license. Or maybe it's because I jokingly said I was going to name my business "Barely Legal". Just think of the website traffic!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Here in Hamilton at least it is against health department regulations to comercially sell any food that is made in a home kitchen.  The only way it is allowed is if the home has two kitchens... one for the family use and one that is for the strict use of the business and is inspected regularly by the health department.  That just said, I have heard of people catering office lunches from their homes and making good money for it, but one guy I know of who was doing that had a visit at his front door from the health department.  It seems someone got sick after eating a lunch he had catered and they complained to the health department.  I don't know if he was fined or not but he did go out of business not too long after that.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Welll.....

When I was catering (professionally, a comercial 3,000 sqft kitchen) it was a love/hate relationship with the home caterers.  Yes, they were stealing business from me, and the stupid ones would carpet-bomb my area with their flyers/promos.  I simply called the health dept on them.  They say that excrement attracts flies, and the home based caterers would attract the cheap-o customers, the whiners, and the "If I can save 10% from the catering budget, I'll get a promation" office mngrs.

But, on the other hand, the home based caterers made me look good.  Once I got a customer back from a home based, I almost always recieved appreciation and repeat business "They actually served green burger patties, I swear, it was green", and,  "I had to pay a $400 fine from the hall because they left such a mess behind", or, "When I checked "X" rental's website, they padded my rental bill by almost $300.00". 

I don't have a crystal ball, but I foresee things with home based bakeries...

I see a food poisoning scare in the near future, I see lawsuites with perishable items being transported in hot, stuffy cars with matted pet hair.

But I also see holy he77 from the fire dept and the municipal sewer/water boys, and frankly of the two, I don't want to see a city sewer worker knocking at my door with a videocamera "snake" and a crap-eating grin on his face.

I forsee insurance companies balking and refusing (what else is new?) at home based caterers and bakers--illegal or not.

And I forsee the tax man eying home based businesses with an evil gleam in his eye.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

panini said:


> Well even if I did it doesn't bother me as much as chicken/meat up high, Medicine, Left overs, flowers, the gross list goes on in the family fridge. Don't think it's not going to happen.
> 
> It's a fact that most all Food Borne Illness occures in the home. People rarely get sick from eating out of a liscenced and inspected kitchen. I'm still trying to figure out how eggs
> 
> ...


Fight fire with fire Have a sign made and posted in your store re. Potential of uninspected kitchens for a mass poisoning of guest. Stress the fact of they are uninsured and therefore can't pay medical bills. Stress the point that the guest could and will sue the host or hostess of the party. So just for the sake of saving a few bucks they risk harming their guest health or even worse. Ask thenm to ask the supplier to see their last health dept. inspection report. Would you want your food made in a place where dogs and cats are running around, or made by someone who has no idea of proper sanitation. In other words scare or shame them /you may even want to put a flyer in all your to go orders. Put all the things you are saying on paper and get it out don't just complain about it. EJB


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## sherrycakes (Apr 13, 2011)

My husband used to work for the Health Dept and they didn't have the funds to go out and look for unreported home based businesses. However, if one was reported to them it would get inspected because they didn't want the possible liability of ignoring a request on a business that is potentially dangerous.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Sherrycakes,

You're right. There is nothing in the Bill about funding the local helth department. I have been around here in business for

decades and know many employees and department heads of the HD and everyone I have contacted are completely uninformed or clueless about this Bill.

EJB,

I absolutely agree with you. I hesitate to do anything untill the Bill passes. In 09 when this Bill was introduced the Capital was inundated with a lot of illegal home

bakers. It was pretty obvious that some of these bakers are already blatently breaking the laws and brought the same mentality with them. Yelling, screaming etc.

  A prominant Pastry Chef here in Dallas went down to talk against the Bill  ended up dealing with bogus reports to the Health Department etc. when they got back.

Now that I'm getting older I really try to avoid confrontation especially with law breaker and tax evader mentalities.

pan


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I just don't get it....

 A bill is passed that O.K.'s home bakeries, which I'm sure will have the Health dept. groaning and moaning, the lawyers rubbing their hands, the tax boys groaning and moaning, and city licensing dept's groaning and moaning.

And here I always though a lobby was a public area in a hotel where you read the paper... 

Whatever....

II think Ed B's advice is the best.  A small sign infront of your cash register reminding your customers that your place is inspected on a regular basis, that you use inspected suppliers and inspected delivery vehicles, that  you do carry insurance (although I wouldn't tell how much...) that guests can sue hosts for food poisoning, and that you do pay municipal, state, and federal taxes and are a vibrant part of your local commmunity.  And further to Ed B.'s advice, have the same message, printed smaller, on each invoice and on the backs of cash register reciepts. 

Perhaps encourage all the other legit bakeries to do the same?

But if they carpet bomb your area with flyers and brochures, it's only fair to call the health dept. on them


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## sherrycakes (Apr 13, 2011)

I should have clarified - my husband worked at an Indiana HD, not Ohio. It was completely illegal in Indiana, and they took the reported home caterers/bakers seriously, they just couldn't afford to hunt them down.

As a caterer in Indiana, I'd tell my clients about the time when the HD shut down a reception before it even happened due to a home-based caterer and all of the violations. The venues should not be allowing unlicensed caterers or bakers in their facilities. I would address that situation first. It's an easy fix, they can just keep approved caterers on file. They should be doing that anyway, for their own liability.

When I was catering, any time I received a lead (phone, email or walk-in) I made sure to get a marketing packet in their hands as soon as I could. It included the regular stuff, but also a coupon for one of our cakes/pies and a checklist of questions to ask when interviewing caterers. Questions such as "Can I see your last inspection? Are all of your employees ServSave Certified? Do you have references available?". You could add things like "How do you keep your food at a safe temperature during transit? Do you carry liability insurance? What will it cover at my event?" and whatever else might make them question using an illegal caterer/baker. It's a great marketing tool, too, because you are prepared to answer the questions...your competition isn't. I named it something like "The top 10 questions you should always ask your caterer" and it looked pretty editorial.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

FP

You and chef EdB are right. My only hesitation is that in 2009 the Bill did not even make it to the floor.

Now I also think that the economy is further in the crapper, we are laying off thousands of teachers and there are more important things

to tend to, they will probably put it on the floor and pass it.  Hey anything for a couple of votes.

pan

PS Chatted with a rep from The Hartford. They will be happy to provide these people with liability ins. as long as it isn't an illegal kitchen.

       For waaaayyyy less then I pay.  Buzzards!

I know you especially understand this. My wife and I have thrown around the idea selling. We have had some healthy offers lately.

2 x anual gross cash would give our employees/family a couple of years to decide what they want to do and put us at the lake.

Who knows maybe a dirty little home kitchen to make cakes! Check out the website cake wrecks. I might install a large monitor in the shop and just loop it LOL.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

If you sell try this  x amount down and a % of sales till you are fully paid. Depending on the gross you could get all money faster then notes over years.   And to hell with the law I would post a sign right away notifying customers about illegals and the consequences that they could face. That is not illegal on your part.


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## blwilson2039 (Aug 26, 2010)

Boy is this a hot topic. But first off, I love the term "carpet bomb" in reference to advertising flyers. Kind of like pop-up windows on the net. Except worse.

Coincidentally, Arizona just had a law signed by the governor today that will allow candies and confections to be produced from a home-based kitchen. As long as they're non-potentially hazardous foods (i.e., custards, dairy products and the like). They have to be properly labeled with ingredients and contact information. Obviously this is a specific niche, but I've been trying to find a commissary kitchen to make caramels, fudge, marshmallows and the like for some time. The farmers markets in the Phoenix market have exploded (figuratively speaking) so kitchen space is hard to find and at a premium. The closest one I found that would sign an agreement is 18 miles from my home.

So I think it makes sense for what I'm producing, but I understand the frustration by legitimate, licensed bakers who are being undercut by "illegal" home bakers. However, the point was made that they'll eventually sicken someone and hopefully get busted. I totally agree that if you are baking/catering and have a license, stress that. Sherrycakes made a very good suggestion: scare potential customers away from unlicensed sellers by stating you are licensed and inspected and give them a checklist stressing that. Kudos! Heck, I'd even say, "Is saving XX% on your cake worth a trip to the hospital for dozens of people with vomiting, stomach cramps and diarrhea?"

Anyway, I'll be getting stall at the market soon. When it's so hot here everyone will abandon their spaces and I'll need ice chests to keep the candy from melting. But I plan on keeping my kitchen uber-clean anyway. Who needs to take chances?

And Panini, isn't it bogus that ANYONE can make an anonymous complaint to the HD? Someone did that to me years ago when I owned a little cafe. Oh yeah, it was my ex-business partner. Only he could have known the specifics of what the nature of the complaint was about.

ATTENTION! SHAMELESS SELF-PROMOTION: www.barbssweetsandtreats.com

Not quite completed, but it's up there and I got tired of dealing with building a website. I also think my prices are too low, but I based them on what the other vendors priced their stuff at.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

ChefEdB,

Ney.ney,ney This is definately not the time to play bank.  CASH!! My financials will support a full loan. If I'm smart about it

I won't choke on the taxes.

blwilson,

This is absolutely not directed towards you!

If I hear one more person say it's just to expensive to do things the right way. I'll puke.

GD right it's expensive and a big risk. That's what going into business is all about.

There are numerous ways to make extra income legally. This whole idea of playing food service

by those who are not experienced is why a sub par product is becoming the norm. Getting a product

cheaper from an unprofessional or unethical business is one of the biggest reasons this country

is becoming a global joke. HELLO!! OUT SOURCING.

good chatting bl.

panini


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

You are fortunate in this banking enviorment to be able to secure financing. You must have over the years built up good repore with bankers. That means you ran a good place. More power to you.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

blwilson.

    Arizona has made a huge error and it will come back to haunt them. If one of the products from these home bakers makes someone sick

The purchaser or consumer can not only now sue the one who made it, but can also sue the county, city, or state for allowing the production of this product. This is a lawyers field day . I would not be surprised if they did not use their lobbying power to help this pass.

        Internal Revenue as well may also take a look at these home business ventures as most of them are operated under the table. The provider of the product is putting all they have at risk by not being insured for product liability, they could lose their house and be in debt for the rest of their lives.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Chefedb,

  You're right. A dozen years ago I wanted to open our current retail location. I was doing well with the wholesale business and didn't figure it

would be hard to get some financing. It is a very affuent part of town. I went to the big banks and they basically required 100 k of cash,

to finance 100.k . Especially since there was a popular bakery one street over that a pretty good 20 yr. reputation.

  I walked into this small 2 branch local bank and sat with I thought was a loan officer but turned out to be the VP. We learned that I had

done his daughters wedding cake. blah blah. He said they were so small that he only would be able to offer me a line for 50k.

Paid myself and the bank back in a yr. I will always reccomend a small personal bank when going into business. There are now

23 banks within walking distance and they just raise their eyebrows when they solicit me and I tell them that I'm perfectly happy where I am.

Pan


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## prairiechef (May 22, 2010)

Maybe it's time we start treating these scofflaws like the "At-home tattoo artists" get treated.

Some guy starts working out of his kitchen, tattooing guys for half what they pay at a legit shop... the local boys get wind of it, and they pay him a "visit". Inform him of the local laws and...erm... unwritten laws. The smart ones go legit fast... the dumb ones leave town and try it somewhere else.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Chefedb,

For the last 20 yrs.I have spent some time out of general population due to medical issues.

Could you explain to me what has happened over time. Are eggs, milk and dairy no longer PHF's? Is there now bacteria free

eggs and things like cottage cheese will last forever? I'm confused. I'm thinking that some of these bakers might actually

buy direct from farm which increases the chances for salmonella. We don't worry about insects and weevils in flours and grains.

* I would love to have someone tell me I'm blowing this way out of proportion and give me reasons why.*

The immunocompromised population is growing rapidly due to illness and therapy. Along with infants and the elderly I am very concerned that these persons will unknowning contract an illness that might even take life if not diagnosed properly.

I am not as concerned with the ingredients as I am with their enviornment. If this law does not require seperate refrigeration and an area deignated away from personal foods for production I am confident many will get sick. It may not be traced back to the source but will definately happen.

By law food business cannot mix personal use foods with commercial foods. All food items have to be wrapped and labeled.

There cannot be smoking or even have a personal drink inside the kitchen. We are required to have sanitizing materials readilly available. Personal hygiene.This does not even cover the hard requirements to deter bacteria.

*I think all these and more requirements are absolutely necessary and I willing comply for the customers sake*.

It appears the lawmakers have have been swayed by current criminals and grossly omitted the consumer in this descion.

It's my falt that I let these BOZOs down at the capital get elected.

idontknow

pan


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## blwilson2039 (Aug 26, 2010)

I wasn't offended by any of the comments. This is a good discussion! I've done a lot of thinking about this since yesterday when I found out about the new legislation. I agree with all the comments about sanitation. Frankly, I'll gladly work out of a commercial kitchen over my place. There are too many positives about working in a commercial kitchen (like washing dishes and proper storage), and I do think it bodes well for a food peddler to say they're in a licensed commercial kitchen versus their home. There's a much better control factor as far as keeping it clean. I'll have to have insurance regardless of where I produce, so it's really a matter of convenience. In the long run, it makes sense.

I did write the legislator as to why the bill was passed, but I have yet to hear anything about it. What I DID find interesting after watching the video of the vote is that (yes, it was horribly boring) - like much of what goes on in government, the votes were aligned with the respective parties. I don't want to get into politics, but suffice it to say it was partisan. Hmm...

Anyway, I get my inspection next week at the restaurant from where I'll be working. I hope to have my own place someday, but that will be another chapter.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Most laws are passed because there are othr laws attached to it or part of it. Thats the way these bums play the system. Most of them do not even know what they are signing unless it directly affects them and their backers.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

> Put all the things you are saying on paper and get it out don't just complain about it. EJB


Hm... I'd run it past my lawyer first. Just because!

Pan, would you really retire before I could get to Dallas??! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Mezz


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

No/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif, well I might have to visit you first.

Gosh, I would hope to be taken as an old fart ranting. I don't like complainers.

To be honest, the only place I think about it is here. I guess because I know I'll be understood on both sides.

Well I guess I won't post my story about the Mother of one of the Brides that flipped. Seems her daughter was too embarrased

to call. the illegal bakers husband has been called out of town on business and two of her children are ill or something

and won't be able to prepare her cake next week. But not to worry ,she will refund the funds paid in full.

Hmmm I wonder where she can get a cake for 300 done on Easter weekend?

of course we're helping her.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Pan !  Make sure you are charging time and a half at least for the holiday.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Chefedb,

I learned a long time ago that when 'decision making' needs to be done and I might not be thinking level headed, I leave it up to my partner.

She says that our business was built on reputation and tradition. Return business, wedding shower, wedding,babyshower,baptism,birthday, conformation, etc.

is very important. We only have a few weddings because of Easter so it won't be taxing to squeeze her in. We are sticking to original contract.

Oh well?? I would like to talk with the bride and ask her for the other bakers name so that we don't refer business her way. wink,wink/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

pan


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Your a good man Charley (Panini) Brown


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## linny29 (Oct 9, 2010)

I was surprised when I learned last year that there are currently ten states that allow home-based bakers to sell their baked goods directly to the public. The states are: Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, and Virginia. The are supposed to be licensed and get inspections like a commercial kitchen but it is still a little weird.


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## millicent (Apr 24, 2012)

BOVINE SHARES... ok, THAT cracked me up...   LOVE IT.  I need raw milk to make cheese (for personal consumption) and now I know how to get it.  NICE


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## prettycake (Dec 23, 2011)

Here in California, baking from home and selling is ILLEGAL, that is why I do not bake as a business although I know I am good enough to go on business.

But as practice and self satisfaction I have to bake. I GIVE away everything I make. I make free wedding cakes, free birthday and any occasion cakes to friends and family.

I have been baking for 18 years and NO one has gotten sick of my baking...ever.. I have seen commercial kitchens that are dirty compared to home kitchens.

Besides I bake for pleasure not for stress or money. It is more fun for me that way. I bake when I feel like it and not when someone pays me to..


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Fair enough.

Thing is, a professional bakery has high overhead costs (rent, power, equipment, etc)  as well as having kitchens up to code.  This means NSF rated equipment, proper sanitation equipment, licensed suppliers (refrigerated delivery vehicles) appropriate amount of sinks, floor and ceiling materials, and staff with proper sanitation training. Not to mention insurance...

The point I'm trying to make is that all the above costs money, and can't be avoided.  The majority of home based businesses do not have this infrastructure and can offer much lower prices.  This really wreaks havoc with pricing structures and customer's expectations.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Home bakers need not be inspected. Commercial does

Home bakers can have their pet running around the kitchen. Commercial can not

Home bakers are not forced to adhere to any health or sanitation procedures . Commercial are dorced under threat of fines and closure.

Home bakers do not have to show sales therefore avoid tax. Commercial can not

Home bakers have 0  orvery  low overhead . Commercial has many expenses

Home bakers carry no product liability insurance. Commercial does

You evaluate the differences.


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## prettycake (Dec 23, 2011)

I understand all the expenses invovled in baking or food business which is also one reason why I won't do it, besides that, I want my week-ends to myself and not having to bake or decorate a cake at 2:00 AM in the morning. Kudos to those who do baking or food as a business. I admire you. I watch "Restaurant Impossible" or "Kitchen Nightmares" and I have seen those restaurants that are extremely dirty and very old or spoiled food in the fridge, although not all commercial kitchens are like that, but it makes me wonder how they got away with such dirty kitchens and old food.. 

I have also read in the news occasionally how some food places get in trouble for serving "green" chicken (KFC last week's news); workers spit in people's drink (also last weeks news); rats or roaches in the kitchen running around; and how two workers in upstate NY were using frozen burger patties as a skate board but served them; some workers took a bath in the big kitchen sink in a chicken place... I'm sure this does not happen everywhere and some are isolated incidents, but how do customers know that ?

I wonder if there are more of these kitchens out there.. not just fast food , but any other commercial kitchens.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

I think what drives customers to home bakers (legal or illegal) is price.  I know there are some home-based bakers who are producing beautiful work and some who are not.  But when customers are looking for the least expensive option, they start looking underground and that is what drives the illegal bakers/caterers.  All of the costs are different, and my product will always cost more than someone who is not paying rent, insurance, salaries, taxes, etc.  A home based baker has limited space and capacity for volume, so there's only so much work they can take on to begin with.

The cleanliness of the kitchen isn't the issue; there will always be levels of cleanliness in any kitchen (commercial or residential).  In a legal kitchen, there is someone whose job it is to enforce the regulations of cleanliness and preparation; in an illegal kitchen there is no regulation, no inspection, nothing.  You can become ill from food prepared in either kitchen; regardless of whether someone gave you the cake for free or you paid a lot or a little.   The cleanliness issue is specious to the root cause of the problem: bakers who operate from home have lower overhead than a commercial bakery.  People looking for a bargain will always find a way to pay less - it may be because of the economic circumstances (like unemployment) or because price is the most important part to them. 

What irks me is how people who "do cakes" on weekends, as a hobby compare themselves to professional bakers and pastry chefs.  I'm not talking about people who once worked in a commercial kitchen and now do things at home because they are retired or changed fields; I'm talking about people who try to pass themselves off as pros because they took a Wilton class at the local hobby store. I know that there are passionate amateurs who bake a lot, or decorate a lot and I don't think they would rank themselves as pros; that's not who I'm talking about.


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## prettycake (Dec 23, 2011)

I have never taken a Wiltons Class in Cake Decorating because I do not like Wiltons style. Sorry if people like me irks you. But that is not stoppng me from doing what I love doing best.

A lot of people started cooking and baking at home as a hobby then moved on to start a business w/ out a title of "*Che*f" ...

Colette Peters; Martha Stewart; Margaret Braun; Marina Sousa, Mary Maher (Cake Girls in Chicago), Fay Shanholtzer; Kathy Scott; Ruth Rickey; Lourdes Reyes; Cecilia Morana; Nancy Linstead; Kathleen Lange and many more.. They started doing what they love doing best from home then later started a business. But they are recognized because of their talents and NOT because of a title .. Even Ron Ben Israel started baking for his mother.. I know SOME people have the passion but not the talent to go with the passion.

I have a God given talent which I do not plan on using as a business but I will share it with people when I want to. Why can't baking talents be shared w/ out making money ? I can afford to give away what I create. I do not have to worry whether I made enough sales this month to pay the lease or someone's salary. But as I have said, I admire you people who bake or cook for a living. I know how much work that is. Kudos to all of you..


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## tarastomsgirl (Jun 15, 2010)

Florida is pretty easy on the law. As long as you don't make more than $15,000 a year outta your house you can cook from it. You can't sell it online but at farmers markets and such its fine. I see them all the time there lots of cupcakes places, breads pastry etc.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Not altogether correct.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Prettycake said:


> I have never taken a Wiltons Class in Cake Decorating because I do not like Wiltons style. Sorry if people like me irks you. But that is not stoppng me from doing what I love doing best.
> 
> A lot of people started cooking and baking at home as a hobby then moved on to start a business w/ out a title of "*Che*f" ...
> 
> ...


What I object to are people who have taken a decorating class like the Wilton hobby classes and then use the title "pastry chef" or "professional" and this class is their only training. Being a professional means that you are following an occupation for gain or your livelihood. It may be that you go through a pastry school program, or earn a culinary college degree (e.g. CIA or J&W) or you have years of experience because you are doing it full time and go through the ranks of cook in a professional kitchen.

The title of chef - and professional - is so diluted by casual use, it has lost its true meaning. People who haven't earned it, use the title when they shouldn't. I don't think you're in the category of people the original poster is talking about - you aren't running a business out of your home illegally.


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## melody (Apr 30, 2012)

Ohio does not define eggs used in a baked product as hazardous. From the Ohio Department of Agriculture (which oversees both Cottage Industry and Home Bakeries) "Potentially hazardous food means it requires temperature control because it is in a form capable of supporting the rapid and progressive growth of infectious or toxigenic microorganisms (Ex. Raw or cooked animal products, cooked vegetables, garlic in oil, cheese cakes, pumpkin pies, custard pies, cream pies, etc.)." A cottage industry may not produce items which need refrigeration or which are to be sold over state lines and must have the phrase *"This Product is Home Produced* on the label. A Home Bakery license currently costs $10/year and requires an inspection of the home kitchen by the Ohio Department of Agriculture. The Home Bakery may produce items which require refrigeration, are sold across state lines and the home may not have pets in it or carpeting in the kitchen.

Don't worry about what the home bakers are doing; concentrate on your own business. If you haven't done a competitive analysis lately, you may want to do this. You may also want to make your deposit non-refundable so you don't get left holding the bag. The whole point of a deposit is a good faith sign of commitment in the first place.


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## cgibbs201 (May 10, 2012)

I am with you on that pastry cake


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## joyb40 (Sep 20, 2012)

goodness... what a conversation on here!   it concerns me though and is kind of detouring me to think of something else now.  I have been baking since i was 3 yrs old with my grandma. it has always been a hobby, a destressor.  sometimes i go weeks baking all day every day and sometimes i can go just as many weeks not baking a single thing.  I have owned a cleaning business, residential, very successful for many yrs.  i'm getting ready to hang up that hat because my body can't take the abuse of cleaning houses anymore.  after 6 months of thought processes on what i can do that i am passionate about, i decided to get into baking and pastry making on a professional level.  why?  aside from cleaning, it is the only thing i love to do as much as i do. i don't like eating most of what i make, i don't have a sweet tooth, but i love making things anyway for others to enjoy.  I am starting culinary classes next month to get my diploma in baking and pastry.  one of the reasons i decided to do this is because it is still something i can do from home.  i have health problems, i have a special needs teenager at home with me.  I need to work from home, be able to control my own schedule etc.   yes my state has the cottage law. and yes, i would absolutely jump through all the hoops to have my business as legit as any other. 

I have to say, after reading all this, i may have to refrain from entering the art institute now and figure something else out to provide for my family from home.  i have worked with many chefs in my time, in 5 star hotels at that.  and i have never heard any of them talk about others like this.  in todays day and age, home based businesses are becoming more and more common.  i can get on disability, but, as long as i can still function enough to provide for my family and work, i will do so instead of living off of the government. now i am feeling like, even though i want to provide for my family and do something i have an immense passion for, i shouldn't do it because "real" bakers etc are offended in some way because not everyone can afford that corner shop and have circumstances that cause them to have to work from home or have schedules that most employements would not play around with.  so.. now.. off i go to spend the next 6 months rethinking on what i should do.  thank you for the enlightenment of this conversation. it really opened up my eyes about a lot of things..


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## rollinglegumes (Sep 3, 2012)

What is an illegal baker? Is this someone that buys lots of flour to hid their large purchases of baking soda? I assume this is a taxation and not a butt-hurt issue (which is probably not true). In the age of outsourcing in every sense; one most simply do the following: supply a product and/or service that is highly superior at a reasonable price or a product and/or service that is the cheapest. A loss for integrity is never a loss, but do not confuse this with compromise in your product to keep up.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

JoyB40,

As long as your state has a "cottage law" and there are no local zoning restriictions and the health department and fire department approve, you're not an "illegal baker", IMHO.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

To answer rolling legumes

An "illegal baker" is someone who bakes out of thier home as a side business or even a f/t  business.  "Business" is the operative word here, not making a cake for Grandma or cousin Sue's B day.  The business is not inspected, nor does it pay the taxes and overhead a legitimate bakery would, it may or may not adhere to proper sanitation procedures, proper storage of ingredients, adhere to health codes, plumbing codes (plugged up sanitary lines...)fire codes, or electrical codes. Pets (hair, feces, urine, and licking the bowl while no one is looking) may be present in the production area.  In the event of a serious food poisoning outbreak an illegal baker can not be found.

Hope this helps


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## rollinglegumes (Sep 3, 2012)

To play devils advocate: is there a great problem with food poisoning with "illegal bakers"? Would fire or electrical code violations pose a threat to the consumer? Is there a prevalence of fires deaths and destruction of property associated with "illegal bakers"? Can you taste the feces (beyond FDA allowable limits) in these products? I too have a problem with clandestine mixed used use real-estate that would provide a household bakery and a petting zoo. As much as I like wild life; exotic birds could cause the greatest problems (as they can fly and have no bowel control) while uncaged reptiles would cause the least annoyance (especially iguanas as they generally add ambiance and reduce flying insects). If allowed why would you not want to lick the bowl if nothing else afterwards? You know I'm all about about taxation, I even add up my internet purchases (as an individual) and pay that tax at the end of the year as I am required by IRS. Would you not find this illegal baker at their residence where they are making the cakes? This seems easier than tracking down an owner of of an legitimate establishment with a phoney home address. 

Yes, they pay little or no over head and this seems why they are the topic of conversation.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Home bakeries do have a higher rate of fires, and sanitary/storm sewer blockages.  Home bakeries do not issue out receipts, therefore there is no trace of a transaction from the seller or the buyer--nothing for the  tax man to grasp at.  If and when any problem arises, the home bakery is gone--no proof that it ever was a home bakery, while a business always leaves a paper trail.

The fact that they pay no overhead is indeed the basis of this thread.  Ingredients may be purchased within the same ranges as legit bakeries, but no overhead means that the home bakery charges less for the product, which puts them at an unfair advantage over the legit baker.  This almost always upsets the pricing structure and leaves the legit baker out.  True, a good and honest legit baker does not compare thier quality to Costco/Safeway, and because of this can charge a fair price, (which should reflect the quality of ingredients and workmanship) but when compared to the home baker is usually 20-50% more expensive, plus the tax. 

In order to play fair, the playing field needs to be level, and it can't be when one pays commercial rent, insurance, property taxes, licenceing fees, minimum wages and above, packaging, visa fees, and taxes, and the other doesn't  

Hope this helps


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## joyb40 (Sep 20, 2012)

foodpump said:


> Home bakeries do have a higher rate of fires, and sanitary/storm sewer blockages. Home bakeries do not issue out receipts, therefore there is no trace of a transaction from the seller or the buyer--nothing for the tax man to grasp at. If and when any problem arises, the home bakery is gone--no proof that it ever was a home bakery, while a business always leaves a paper trail.
> 
> The fact that they pay no overhead is indeed the basis of this thread. Ingredients may be purchased within the same ranges as legit bakeries, but no overhead means that the home bakery charges less for the product, which puts them at an unfair advantage over the legit baker. This almost always upsets the pricing structure and leaves the legit baker out. True, a good and honest legit baker does not compare thier quality to Costco/Safeway, and because of this can charge a fair price, (which should reflect the quality of ingredients and workmanship) but when compared to the home baker is usually 20-50% more expensive, plus the tax.
> 
> ...


ok, now i am really missing the basis of this or something is getting confused into my own translation. i understand there are underhanded "business" owners out there. but, i find it highly unfair to lump all home bakers the same. i know plenty of home bakers that DO pay their taxes, they DO have receipts for every single sale they make, they DO pay for insurnce, property taxes on their own home, keep things sanitary, one even went as far as to remodel their basement into a commercial kitchen/storage area where their dogs were not allowed to be. they DO pay their fees and visa fees and packaging and what ever else.

this is how i plan to run my own bakery, just as legit as anyone other baker out there, except i won't have the glorified commercial building right off the bat. life is not fair in any direction you go. you will have your brick and mortar businesses and you will have your e-commerce businesses now and home businesses... as long as the law allows it, it will be done. for 10 yrs i have owned a cleaning business. i do not work from a brick and mortar.. i run my business from my house. yes, i am cheaper than a brick and mortar company, but, there is plenty of business out there for everyone.

i guess i am just not understanding why there is a fuss.. ok, i DO understand when they are operating in an illegal state/zone.. yes, i get the fuss then.. but, when it is legal in that area and zoned.. what is the fuss? i have been sitting here for the last 24 hours or so really thinking hard about this and weighing it out etc.. and ya'll make me feel like i am nothing unless i have that brick and mortar.. which, i was wanting some day, but, with a special needs child still at home, i need to start from home. now.. i am 75% sure i will give up this dream and probably give up baking period. this has left a sour taste in me. this makes me sad. i'm a home based business and i pay all my taxes, i pay for a cpa, i pay my insurances, bonding, employees, benefits, vehicles etc.. i pay out just as much as a brick and mortar except i do not have to pay a 3000.00 mortgage.. seems smart to me.. but, i apparently not because it is unfair to those that run out of a wharehouse or something.. it is petty..

as long as the person is running their business properly, it should not matter where they do it from. it really shouldn't. you will find people who are cheaper than others.. being competitive and undercutting.. thats the way of the business world. if we all cost the same.. why would there be so many of the same businesses in one town? it would be pointless.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If you're inspected and licensed, then fair enough, I've got no problems.  It also tells me you have invested serious time, effort, and money into upgrading your infrastructure and you are serious about your business.  This I can respect.

If you are not, (inspected and licensed) then you are fair game for revenge.  I have done this to three home based (illegal) "catering companies".  They were stupid enough to blanket-bomb the neighborhood with flyers and undercut my business by as much as 40%.  I called the health dept. on them, and they were promptly shut down--with a long list of "things to improve" if they wanted to apply for a business license.  They didn't......


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

I think the original poster was discussing the fact that an "illegal" home baker does not go through the same hoops as a "legal" baker (home based or otherwise).  There will always be those who "do cakes" out of their home - if they are licensed and subject to the same rules and regulations as a brick-and-mortar bakery, I don't think it makes much difference.  A home baker will always have limitations in terms of volume (I have the space to do 12 weddings in a weekend, most home bakers don't) and there will always be customers who are looking for the lowest price.  It's the people who don't get the right permits, licensing, training and are flying under the radar that are the problem.


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## gymgirl325 (Feb 18, 2013)

I noticed you are in Dallas, TX. Here is the information on the Texas Cottage Food Law, which was passed.

http://www.texascottagefoodlaw.com/

It is not illegal for home bakers to sell out of their homes in Texas. I operate a cake business out of my home. I have a Food Manufacturers Licence through the State of Texas, registered my business through the county, have a state tax ID and follow all the guidelines of the Texas Cottage Food Law. I'm sure there are some at home bakers out there who do not follow the guidelines, but I follow them. My business and operations are legal. I can understand the frustrations of at home bakers taking away some of your business, but everyone has to start somewhere and if it ends up being at home, and it's legal, then there is nothing wrong with it. At home bakers also cannot do the sheer volume compared to a Bakery. I refer all my clients to local bakeries if my schedule is booked for the date my client needs. Supporting the local home bakers might be a good thing in your situation, because if they knew you supported them, they might send you some business. Bashing other people's businesses is not a good way to have supporters.


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## nuzgirl (Apr 26, 2013)

JoyB40 don't you dare let people in an online discussion forum crush your dream! If you want to pursue baking, and doing it from your home, then go for it! Who cares if you offend some anonymous people you'll never meet?


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## nuzgirl (Apr 26, 2013)

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-governor-signs-home-bakery-act-into-law/article/3786724

It will soon be legal to bake from home in Oklahoma. I'm pumped, as I'm an at-home baker.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I'm not trying to take sides, but I wonder how that would work on your tax forms.  Would that be considered a home office deduction?


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## not great pumpk (May 1, 2013)

Panini, After reading your original post is sounds like you are not doing much to market your product.  You are doing everything the correct way and it seems these illegals are doing better nut because of pricing but because they are going where the people are.  It is hard to compete with someone who has a friend or relative that can do the same thing for free or cost, but I gather we are not discussing that avenue here.  Controling costs are hard enough when prices are going up and profits are going down, but getting your product out there is how you attract business.  These crooks seem to be willing to market themselves and sounds like some are doing it in a shady kinda way but you need to look at getting your name in front of larger audiaences.


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## jessicaskyler83 (May 7, 2013)

My sister has a small bakery in her home and is licensed. Her husband is a chemical engineer and he was able to do everything label wise and pass the inspections for their home. It's actually very professional. She has almost everything most small brick and mortar bakeries have. She's become very popular and has even had a couple famous clients. She is under the Ohio laws. She sells specialty.decorated cookies that most bakeries cannot do. She makes a good living off of it and is completely honest ,clean, and legal


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## jessicaskyler83 (May 7, 2013)

You fall under small business laws.- this was in response to kuan... sorry I tried to quote but my phone is just useless on this forum.j


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## sweetie 5858 (Aug 14, 2013)

Well I understand your thoughts but there are alot of people out there who are fantastic bakers who can't afford to open up a bakery.  I know california is passing the law allowing this to happen.  I am all for it.  I have the experience in the baking and don't understand what the problem is.  If your a good baker and have a fantastic reputation then you shouldn't feel bad if people opt to try other ways, most likely they will come back to you.  If your prices are high because of your reputation then you will loose business.  In this economy right now people are trying to feed their families.  And yes you need to run your business also, but if it keeps people from getting federal aid and able to start a small business I am all for it.  I think alot of bakeries over charge their supplies and yes I have sold many cakes and know that we can cut our prices by a small amount.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ummmm........ Sweetie?

Try running a legit business.

-Negotiate a lease

-Pay the monthly rent--anywhere from $2,000 to $8,000/mth depending on size and location

-Pay the licensing fees, the yearly inspection fees

-Purchase NSF/UL listed commercial equipment

-Pay for staffing costs

-Pay for utilities (remember that businesses pay for garbage pick up, unlike private homes)

-Pay for at least 3 forms of advertising (trade shows, school/church connections)

Legit businesses have a tremendous amount of overhead, home based ones don't

Please don't compare apples to oranges, you'll only look like an eejit...........


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

BTW, the California _cottage law_ limits the amount of gross income for home based preparation of non-PHF products and prohibits preparation of PHF products. I believe the limit is in the neighborhood of $35k-$50k GROSS! Subtract the food costs and some licensing, insurance, and increased utilities, and one might possibly net $25k-$30k annually, roughly equivalent to a $12-$15/hour regular job without the headaches of running your own business. Oh, remember, no employees other than family members.

AND, you do have to be located in a qualifying zone, i.e. no multi-family structures, and meet the health standards.


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## welldonechef (Sep 28, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Ummmm........ Sweetie?
> 
> Try running a legit business.
> 
> ...


A (legal) home based business has to deal with:

No-shows and flaky customers who don't feel like paying for the product made.

They have to run their business out of their home, which means they are at work all the time. No nice little pastry shop to dissapear to.

A fierce competition for the little bit of money out there

INSANE hours because _they don't have to pay for staffing costs. (_They can't afford staff see... and the BOSS is a hard-ass)

Baking with conventional home ovens because they don't have the equipment like a pastry shop would

They do have to pay for utilities, and on a MUCH higher scale than a business would have to. (I am comparing apples to apples. If you look at the percentage for their utilities to power their oven/stovetop/lights and compare that to a bakery that has a MUCH higher square footage.)

A home doesn't pay for garbage pickup because-let's face it-there just isn't enough garbage to warrant a separate charge. If the garbage becomes an issue, you best bet that extra charges are levied against the homeowner. That, and the garbage pickup is part of property tax in a lot of places.

They pay higher costs for ingredients, equipment, and advertising because they are NOT a business with buying power. They buy the produce for at lest 40% of what you would because they don't have a contract with a supplier.

I'm just speaking about legit businesses. Home based business is legit, as long as your state/province laws allow for the production. In most cases it is a case of checking with the zoning laws.

AS to the OP... Do you think that you are the only industry to be affected by this? (Home based catering, bakers, wedding planners, etc.) Look at graphic designers, web programmers, nutritionists. _If you are losing out on your target market, you are not doing enough. Sitting back and bitching about it is not the way to win this war_. Legislation won't win this war for you. If people are going elsewhere, you are looking at the wrong demographic.

The right people will pay to have quality. If that is what you offer, then go out there and sell your product. How many aunts out there will realistically make a wedding cake, much less one that will be remembered? How is this seriously cutting into your business?

Why are you giving your designs out?


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## goldilocks (May 21, 2013)

welldonechef said:


> A (legal) home based business has to deal with:
> 
> No-shows and flaky customers who don't feel like paying for the product made.
> 
> ...


Gee you guys are scaring the **** outta me. 

Firstly I will say this: I agree that if people are baking from home illegally in the US (and I bet some do in the UK too) and it takes business from legit companies that would be a problem, for all the reasons others have stated above. 

You're scaring me because I can't afford to open a bakery. However I really want to start my own business selling the stuff I make now anyway and give away to family/friends/work colleagues for nothing (because I love making it). My compromise is to dip my toe in the water first, see how it goes and keep the day job at the same time. I am planning on opening a home based bakery for cakes, muffins, biscuits, cupcakes etc. and my local farm shop has told me they will happily sell them. They like supporting local businesses. It will be totally legal and above board, I will have my insurance, H&S Food training (already done it) and hygiene certificate from my local council once they've inspected my home. I really don't see a problem with me doing this. I won't be in competition with big bakeries in the nearest town (about 9 miles away) as I'll be nowhere near their level, and like welldonechef said, I am just one person. It's not the same at all. I won't have the cooker for huge orders, and will be working at the same time so that will limit what I can do. I will (and already do) have top of the range equipment, but that's for home baking not on an industrial scale. I might not be paying rent/staff/utilities but I WILL be paying a large mortgage, normal household bills and utility bills which would increase, the upkeep and renewal of my cooking utilities, advertising, website costs, ingredients at shop prices as I probably wont be able to buy in bulk and I fully expect not to see my husband much whilst I try to hold down a full time job (up at 5am, leaving home 6am, getting home 7:45pm earliest) and then doing this on the side evenings and weekends to try and get something going. 

I thought it was the perfect way to try this out, and if it takes off I'll look at giving up my job and doing this full time on proper premises. Some of the animosity on here is quite alarming. Some people, who are legit, are just trying to keep their head above water and bring in extra income whilst doing something they are good at. I know that's part of the reason why I'll be doing this.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

There has always been a tradition here in the UK for home bakers charging for things like wedding and birthday cakes. 

Trying to compare us and the USA in this context is just a waste of time.

I've made special occasion cakes for friends (free of charge or for the cost of ingredients) loads of times. Also for school cake sales. I know the EU were trying to stop that, but common senseseems to have prevailed.

I don't really detect any animosity, just professionals making their views known.

Go ahead with your plans! After all, you'll never be in direct competition with the likes of Choccywoccydoodah for ages yet


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Whoa!

You don't think legit businesses have to deal with flaky customers who don't want to pay??

You don't think we work crazy insane hours?  Work our tails off so we can find enough work for our employees so they don't walk off ?

Put it like this:

Say you're an olympic athelete, doing the hurdles.  Guy next to you in the race is running around the hurdles, and he's telling you: "Watchya complaining about? It's ok, the race officials said I could."

A legit business has incredible overhead to pay, a home based one doesn't. 

Apples and oranges.


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## goldilocks (May 21, 2013)

Ishbel said:


> There has always been a tradition here in the UK for home bakers charging for things like wedding and birthday cakes.
> 
> Trying to compare us and the USA in this context is just a waste of time.
> 
> ...


I think they're pretty safe /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## herpderp (Aug 27, 2013)

Hello Panini,

I myself bake for my friends and family, sometimes for money and sometimes for nothing. I do it because it is fun and makes  me happy. I'm not doing it to try to get "professional" bakers mad. I will admit my stuff doesn't always look that good, but I'm learning. I am getting a portfolio started. I eventually want to work at a cake decorating shop or shop n' save, but I like the job I have right now. If people come to me wishing to purchase why would I turn them down?  I am a bit conceded about what I do. The stuff I make looks darn good 95% of the time, and that is why people buy things from me. That is probably why they buy from a lot of other home bakers too. We all aren't in it for the money. Home bakers charge less because we love what we do and it isn't all about money like professional bakers. Professional bakers charge a fee for everything. No one has the money to spend thousands of dollars on cakes. Its much easier to go to your niece or friends child for a cake than go to an actual place. derp. that is all~~~~


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm confused.  Are you a home baker hoping to someday work at a supermarket grocery bakery or cake shop?  What I'd suggest is you learn the basics while someone is paying you. Get that job  now, even if it is part time.  You'll learn a huge amount about production and if your stuff "doesn't always look that good" that will help tremendously.  Learn the ropes at a place that can teach you good work habits. As well as what it takes to run a business, which will help you understand what professional bakers go through and why pricing is the way it is.

Professional bakers love what they do just as much as home bakers - the difference is that professional bakers need to make a living at it, while home bakers usually have another job that subsidizes their baking.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

herpderp said:


> Professional bakers charge a fee for everything. No one has the money to spend thousands of dollars on cakes.


Sigh.......

You're not listening, are you? Of course Professionals charge a fee, they have to pay staff, a good baker needs to be paid more than minimum wage, and professionals have to pay for overhead: Rent, utilities, equipment, insurance, etc. If you're getting charged "thousands of dollars" for a cake, there must be a lot of time invested in that cake. Again, what is minimum wage in your area and multiply that with the hours invested in a cake, add in overhead and ingredients.

Let me put it to you another way, what do you do for a living?


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## mannlicher (Jan 8, 2006)

I am sitting on both sides of the fence here.  Cottage industry food production/sales is as old as mankind.  I feel that .gov has WAY too much control of our lives in the first place.  If I make a gallon of hot sauce, or bake cookies and sell them, the government has no business poking their nose in.

In Florida, you used to be able to harvest game animals, wild hogs or deer for example, and donate the meat to a worthy recipient.  Hunters would provide meat to schools, jails and prisons, and to help the needy.

A law was passed that makes the donor have a Veterinarian or health inspector check the carcass before it is donated.  The donor has to pay for the inspection.  Guess how many harvested animals are donated now?  'bout Zero.....

Having owned and operated restaurants and food product manufacturing for many years, I sympathize also with folks trying to earn an honest living that way.  My son operates a business making organic Tempeh.  Fairly good sized operation.  Manufacture, sales, and distribution.

We have spent tons of money on inspections, code updates, buying from certified soy bean distributers, working with Chefs and purchasing agents, having our product inspected by the State, as well as independent labs to insure that the products are safe and good.

Yeah, when I hear someone in town is 'home making' the same product, and selling it to my customers or potential customers, I get a bit hot.  There is one in particular, that flies under the radar, no inspections, no insurance, no regard for sanitation.  He makes a lot of money, selling dirt cheap, while my lad and I pay big bucks to stay legal.

It's a problem, but I am not sure that more government is the answer. The customer that will trade off quality of product for a cheaper price,  will find a way to skirt most regulations.  When I present our vastly superior product to those using the cheap, undocumented product, they always admit that our product is superior.  That does not mean they always switch to us.


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## art good (Jan 11, 2011)

"If I make a gallon of hot sauce, or bake cookies and sell them, the government has no business poking their nose in."

Couldn't agree more.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Love the attitude!

Now, if you were making gallons of hot sauce or cookies and giving them away, yes. Gov't has no right poking their noses in.

When you _*Sell *_something, they (Gov't, any form, be it municipal, State or Fed.) have the right to take their cut (taxes) and to inspect premises.

When you cook/bake for other people, you have the power to make a pleasant dining experience, a so-so one, or to maim or even kill someone.

Don't forget this fact......


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## fedup33 (Mar 30, 2016)

How do i report someone? why am i not allowed to do it anonymously?


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

You report someone to the agency that regulates that particular area. So the Attorneys General in each state has a place to file complaints for certain things. If it is food related, the Health Department is usually where you report to. 

     You are typically not allowed to be anonymous because the agencies don't want to waste time running down complaints made for spite. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they did anything illegal. And the people who you are making a complaint against have the right to know who is making the complaint. Consumer complaints are not considered the same as whistle blowing for industry or government.


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## granola girl (Mar 8, 2015)

It is really interesting to read all the comments everyone has posted. I understand the frustration about the illegal home bakers. There were many good points listed. I'm in Los Angeles area. I own a 3 yr old Granola company. I operate Legally as a Cottage Food Operation in LA County. With all the farmers markets popping up in every town, the Health dept needed a way to inspect and have guidelines for food sellers to follow. I am fortunate the my CFO permit is tied to my guest house kitchen. I do have insurance, and protect my personal assets by having the Granola company set up under a Limited Liability Company, LLC. As per CFO regulations, the label of my products say Made in a Home Kitchen (in 12 point font) Getting the labels approved was the hardest part for me. 

After 2 yrs and wholesaling to 24 stores, mostly family owned stores and the Pasadena Rose Bowl Aquatic Center snack shop, I realized I needed a commercial kitchen. I looked for a year and half before finding a "for sale" cupcake shop that was affordable. 

So now I own both a CFO and a Commercial Bakery. I carry insurance, permits, everything for both. Yes, some customers ask me why I'm expensive. I just say because I use the best quality ingredients and put so much care into my products. My granola is the Ferrari/Cartier of granola. As for the cupcake shop, customers know rent in South Pasadena is expensive. 

Panini, the cheaper illegal home bakers may try to copy your flavor profiles, but they can't provide the professionalism, or concierge service that years of experience brings. Your upper hand is your Branding. I agree with the others that customers need to be aware that the illegal ones aren't inspected and is that a risk you want to take? Just don't direct that to a specific illegal baker so they can't come after you for slander. (LA has a lot of sue happy people.)

Cheers,

Granola Girl


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## sunshine1231 (Jul 26, 2016)

I know someone that is and has been for years  operating an illegal catering service in her home and stores the food in an outdoor  shed overnight which has caused Rats in the neighborhood. I have filed  3  different complaints with the local health dept. but by the time they come out to  investigate  she has removed the equipment she uses to prepare the food.   I strongly suspect that someone working either in the Health dept or Metro  is tipping her off.because she told me one time that she knew every call I made.  She even advertised her illegal business in the phone book but has since closed the business listing in the phone book however she is still operating the business out of her home and still causing Rats in our neighborhood.. The Health Dept can't seem to catch her and I'm at a loss as to what I could do to stop this.We do not have an HOA in our neighborhood   Anyone have any ideas??


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Pictures of the shed and a copy of a customer's  invoice would work.  Bypass the Health dept and see if you can find a Dr. at the E.R. to file a complaint.....


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

video


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Call a pest control company, see if they can "locate the source" of the rodents. (this documents that normally rodents would not be in this area unless there is food being stored improperly, and not just when the trash is collected).  How near to your home is this person?  Can you document the comings and goings of customer picking up orders or them leaving to cater an event?  That can trigger a violation of zoning codes.

Do they use social media to promote the business?  That's another way to track them. Most health depts that I've worked with over the years would be jumping all over that because of the risk to public health.  So I don't doubt that someone may be alerting them to an impending inspection.  See if your homeowners insurance can be helpful, talk to your agent and say this is what's going on and is there a way to find out if that home is insured because you can bet that insurance company isn't going to tolerate an illegal business.


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