# Terminologies of Cuts



## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Hi to all, 

it always happens to me, when young chefs come with some recipe ideas form the internet, that chefs mention the word small cubes, medium cubes, large cubes, finely chopped, chopped and etc. 

For myself this are very unspecific terminologies. Why is it, that in the US chefs dont use the traditional vegetable and potato cut terminologies, which are used by most European chefs, we can say for centuries? 

Vegetable cut terminologies: 
Bruinoise
Jardiniere
Macedoine
Mirepoix
Matignon 
Paysanne 
Carrot Vichy
Batonettes
Turned vegetables
Chiffonade 
Julienne 
etc. 

just wondering, as this cut names are expressing, cubes of different sizes, strips etc. 

well just wondering. 

regards


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Seems like kind of a generalization there Chef. Perhaps it has to do with the people you work with. If you have a kitchen full of "un-schooled" cooks, then perhaps descriptive words as opposed to correct terminology gets the point across better. If you know what a brunoise is, and the person you are trying to tell to make it knows what it is, then bang...no problems. But by the same token I am quite sure you can find an equal number of Europeans that will use big dice, small dice etc. in a professional setting. It would be nice if we all spoke the same language, but it likely won't happen. When I ran my kitchens and I wanted a Batonette or a lardon, etc. I said so. If the person I was telling didn't know then I would teach them. But to make a generalization that is wrong.


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Chrose, 

you just hit the nail on the head. however it is for a more efficient communication actually and not to talk to untrained people. I say the word, i get what i want, well Chef Escoffier probably also used them. You call for a cube you can get anything, i call for brunoise I get a cube of 1mm x 1mm x 1mm. Well this cuts are all about efficient communication and understanding in a professional kitchen setting. as i do not want to give every new chef instructions about the basic cuts. Also would i say that most European Chef are using this language as all professional culinary schools are teaching them as we believe in them to be very effective in the kitchen and understanding of recipes. 

regards


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

In all my training, some of it under french chefs, I was taught that a brunoise was 1/8 x 1/8 x 1/8 of an inch, which translates into approx. 3mm x 3 mm x 3 mm, not 1 x 1 x 1. While I agree that terms like large dice, medium dice, etc. can be vague, I don't know that we need to rely and the french for all of our terminology, all of the time. Sure brunoise, julienne, etc. are great terms, that I use often, but so is 1/4 inch dice, 1/2 inch dice.


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Pete, 

there is obviously some variation in size, brunoise can range from 1 mm cube to a larger once, however the next size is Jardiniere which is 0.5cm X 0.5 cm x 0.5 cm and also up wards thereafter you have the macedoine aprox 1 cm cube etc. Well the way you say it, it makes sense, if expressing a measurement / cube, but many dont do that and that leaves therefore many to guess the size as it is not specific. 

regards


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

Sadly it seems brunoise is the only cut anyone knows these
days. Often I will ask for a julienne, baton, paysanne, macedoine,
or chiffonade, and, get a blank stare in return. I to agree that
knife skills have fallen by the wayside. I think you will find that
many young cooks today are also in the dark in regards to 
many mainstream classic sauces. Call me conservative, but, 
some things are the way they are for a reason. When I ask
for something I expect to get it. More often than not, its not
that I want what I think something should be, but, what some
thing has to be. The lack of discipline and definition in kitchens
really bothers me these days, but, thats why I speak with each
new employee and give them, in written form, the basics(cuts, mother
sauces, proper uniform, etiquette,etc). In the end I am the one
charged with the responsibility of educating the kitchen staff. It
takes a little time, but, in the end it saves nine. By the way,
I have really enjoyed the posts by Chef Kaiser. Truly well rounded
gracious, and non jugemental. A true professional, I think, a lifer
probably. 

Stephen


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Dear Stephen, 

Yes in fact, you can classify me like an old broken record even though I am only 44. The greatest problems in our business we face today are media, food critics and show biz chefs. Well - as well as - teachers who dropped out of the kitchen, because or maybe it got too hot for them and after 3 - 5 years they believe now I can teach. Well there the answer to the new generation of cooks (chef so called today after graduation) and the reason why "You Stephen" have to teach basics to them again, but that is the only way. 

For myself I grew up with a true world champion - National Team Leader of the Swiss Culinary Team in the 70th - Teacher in an apprenticeship school 1 day a week and Chef of 8 restaurant with 180'000 covers a month. Well there I learned to be a humble cook with such a master and himself, often bored with office work, he came and peeled the 300KG of onions (daily) with us apprentices and always had time for a joke or some review while peeling onions. We ended up in the third year still helping to peel the onions and not having had pride to be the senior. 

What he actually tells me with his 75 years of age still today - is simple - Just ignore what you feel is wrong and do as a Chef what you have to do. Some may say you are old fashioned but trust always the basic culinary methods, as even I had to learn them and understand them today. 

I never worked in the US, but I most probably would have a hard time to work there, as I traveled there for many times in business or just for other reasons. As a European and from the business I can see and feel the motivation of staff, it is mostly money oriented. 

Also I work with some Americans here abroad in the past 20 plus years and I hope nobody kills me of what I am saying now. But they walk in an operation here 14 outlets and said easy, well mostly they had to leave, as we don't cook with convenience food products here and we have fare inferior ingredients quality here. That is the first thing they complaint about, but making the best out of it with the basics you can. 

As I learned I do, we as Chefs are Ambassadors of food and health; we do have a direct influence of the well being of the customer and the respect to their religion and believes. 

Therefore chefs and even cooks and educators of today should not say the past is past, well I do believe the past gives energy to me and the knowledge given from generation to generation should be treasured. 

Well that spark I tried to give with the translation of Careme and Escoffier, but I do trust some out there will understand me and understand what it means to be a cook and not a chef. 

Stephen, thank you and let's keep in touch. 

Regards 

Hans 

And I always apologize for my English, but my consommé is clear and happy


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

44? cripes. I was thinking 67-68 I'm going out on a limg and judging your professional education to equate like an upbringing in a Catholic enviornment.
This is just me now, having already been cooking when Chef Kaiser was born. I would take the word generalization (used by Chrose) and change it to
generational. Like golf, a caddie now a days would not know which club I was calling for if I were to ask for a mashie, nibbkick, etc.
This is before my eyes are open, so please, no one take offence. I cannot talk without my hands for the first few hours of the day.
Gosh, sorry, that did not make any sense.


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Panini, 

did you get up on the wrong foot this moring, basic are basic and you can be 80 and tell me an other story. 

flour with its glutenin and gliadin + water = gluten 

If you Add egg to it and sugar in different proportions 

= your sponge cake will be different

well that is all what i am taking about. 

Panini you can be 90 and i will tell you even the effect of the sugar, fat and etc. in dough 

this are humble basics! 

and schools should be teaching that and not establishments!

that is all what i mean. 

Nothing about age please it is all about respect to the knowledge in our profession and its basics!

regards


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

No Chef,
very happy this morning. Absolutely not being negetive. I just think as we pass the baton to the younger generation of chefs, terminology changes. For instance, I was just offered a pretty good chunck of money to stand in for a friend and teach his laminating course for three weeks. I was pretty sure I knew what laminating refered to, but I responded in a 'no thanks' way for I was not 100% sure. I have never used this label coming up. Chef, my post was with respect for you, nothing else. Our family is proud to be Catholic. I'm refering to the old way of education. My 15 yr old is attending a Cistercian Preparatory school which some would consider a little old fashioned. I regard it as pretty modern, when compared to the Catholic high school I attended.
Make any sense yet? sorry
pan


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Dear Panini,

i personally dont talk about church and God, when i cook and do, that is your family. For me i do believe in God very much and there is anyway only One the way i can see since i traveled the world. Therefore lets use the inspiration of God the only One, but working with a Muslim beside you and etc. Chefs have no specific church, all churches are ours and they are all our friends, as we respect them and they respect us. If you think humble that is what it is all about. i call it the world church and we as chefs can do it. 

regards


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well,
I have done it again. Not rereading my reply before posting.
Chef Kaiser, I have nothing but respect for you. That last post sounded like a slam, but it was not intended to be read like that. My crack about the age was in reference to how much knowledge and experience you have at a young age. The Catholic remark was refering to the older more classical ways of a catholic education. It's kinda like a classical education in food.
I appologise if that post sounded offensive. It was typed by an idiot who is not recovered from a busy day yesterday. I could not string two thoughts together this morning. I have no business posting. I'm gonna take a break and head out to Church. I'll pop on later this afternoon to assess the damage I've done.
pan


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

After some thought,
It has come to the point where I'm not enjoying participating any more. I'm going to take a break. It seems all I do is appologise for my thoughts.


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Dear Panini, 

No problem with me, I am not like that. However to be honest what I believe I make sure I go straight back to the point. 

As I do believe there should be no boarders among Chefs. That is what Chef Careme and Chef Esfoffier proofed to us, as they traveled the world. That is also the reason why I do bring up here in my posts of the old culinary language of the vegetable cuts and my next post it will be the potato cuts (well there was a student asking for it and one of you just well). 

As for me a universal chefs language, a universal chefs book of the basics would humbly be a dream. 

Well a Dream - as Ego of school owners and mediocre teachers just try to developed a new way with a new language. 

Why not using what our forefather gave us, and on these principals do it better in education with our better technology of equipment of today and etc. of today.

The true problem today are the many schools with truly mediocre teachers, who never heard of the culinary history or know maybe about it and are affright to pronounce the French word like brunoise!

Well the true fact is, that the American Government never standardized culinary education programs, what happened way back in Europe in some countries because of Escoffier and his book "Le Guide Culinaire."

Well all disagree with me now and make me look like the black sheep, but truly think first, and think of the world history of chefs. 

regards


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I got to tell ya. Statements like this scare me a little, truly


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

Mister Kaiser,
I am thirty nine myself. Do not have the vast backround of
knowledge you have, but, seem to have a natural talent and
a strong sense of what my customer base wants. Good temperment
and Bilingual. I went to school(J&W) and came up with Swiss, French,
and German chefs. I to am at a resort and have multi outlets to 
deal with. I agree with most all you say and very much enjoy 
your posts. I see myself as a tradesman. Not quite the european
upbringing in so far as my culinary trade, but, enough time with now
chefs in thier 70's and 80's to have respect and be humble. Thank
you again for your posts, have been looking for someone like you to 
get advice from for quite a while. Take it easy. 

Stephen


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## nentony (May 7, 2005)

Truly a shame this thread has taken this path. Chef Kaiser, I'm pretty sure you were being paid a compliment when Panini expressed suprise at your age. I was suprised too. your knowledge and devotion to tradition suggest someone older, and here in cyberspace all we have to go by is your posts, which I have enjoyed. I am a relative newcomer to this site but Panini has always struck me as a positive guy. Perhaps, reread this thread in a different frame of mind.
Regards,

Tony


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Okay I'm jumping back in this. I reread all the posts. I want to say also that I am not trying to be nasty or discourteous, but I am not going to pull any punchs here either. This board is about openess, honesty and courtesy, and I will do my best to uphold this, but some things need to be said, in my own humble opinion mind you. When Panini made the comment about Chef Kaiser being only 44 I understood exactly what he meant. The Chef comes across as a much older person by his tone and language. I made my comment about generalizations because in many of the posts the Chef comes across as somewhat elitest and of the opinion that he is here to teach us because we need to be taught. 

The cooks and Chefs that went to school likely all know about Careme and Escoffier and others because in order to bring your profession forward you must learn from the past. However Careme and Escoffier et al were the forbearers and masters of the craft, however they are not gods, and they are not the end all and be all of cooking. There are many among us that are truly phenomenal cooks and chefs, that are not professionally trained and because of that it is unlikely that they know the history of the european chefs. That does not make them any less able than any others. Because Europe is so much older than the US, it is natural that classical cooking evolved from there. The professional kitchen thereofore has always had a European presence in it. Many older Chefs including myself worked and trained with Chefs that were trained under the old European apprentice method and brought the hard *** kitchen mentality with them. There have been countless threads on this board on just that subject. We have worked very hard to learn from the masters that went before us but have also worked very hard to fly on our own wings and use their shoulders to reach heights they had never known were even possible. But there has always been a very pervasive European elitest mentality in the kitchens, and I'm afraid that the good chef at the tender age of only 44 is whether it's intended or not seems to be foisting that agenda on the members of the board.

It's apparent that there is tremendous knowledge and respect for for the profession, and a desire to try and continue the heralded traditions of the professional kitchen and I applaud that. But this is the year 2006 and we are in a new millenium and a new attitude and if we do not adhere to the "old ways" to the letter that doesn't make us any less than you. 

The comment about the Catholic environment was made to illustrate that it appears that you went through the apprentice system which was from what I understand as arduous and demeaning and therefore you speak with an air of that upbringing.

My whole point here is that we are a diverse group and we all bring unique talents, abilities and personalities to the board, and in order to get along we need to respect those differences and abilities. We all welcome the opportunity to learn from each other because there is something we can learn from everyone. So lets not get off on the wrong foot by seemingly arrogant posts and comments and let's respect that we can all get along in the kitchen regardless of our training or lack thereof.
I'm going to bed now.:beer:


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

Chrose and Chef Kaiser,

I am extremely delighted with this particular post. It is the
most straight forward yet. I agree with everyone to an extent.
I think point Mr. Kaiser is trying to relay goes something like this.
Being a great Chef is a culmination of many things. Family backround, 
exposure to many cultures, formal training(only for the base), strong
relationships with mentors, natural talent,years of repetition, working knowledge of
relative administrative duties, the learned and natural ability to multi
task on a massive scale, self control, discipline(very important), the
ability to mold yourself into many different kitchen environments, having
a strong family behind you(lest you lose focus on one of lifes most
important things), the willingness to keep your mind open and to 
continue to learn, create, and innovate. Older chefs sometimes say
to me, "I already forget more than you ever gonna learn". I am not
put off by it, because it is more time than not, true. It is rude to try 
and compare chefs of today with chefs of an older more disciplined
era(many in thier late 30's and 40's). It is impossible to compare an
executive chef with many outlets to support and many limitations, to,
a chef in the catering business, school, or freestanding medium sized 
restaurant. I am not fanning the fire, but, anyone who can run things
on a grand scale successfully, is elite. I am faced with some problems
that Chef Kaiser has already conquered and will probably be asking for
help. Panini, Chrose. I have much respect for the posts you have participated in and enjoy them equally. You know the most important job there is? The job each one of us do. Heres in hopes I don't sound one
sided or jaded. 

Humbly yours,

Stephen


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Hi, 

I apologize, when basic terminologies turned into a disagreement about anything else than vegetable cuts. 

However I believe the age factor should not be a point to discuss, as age has no meaning in any profession, once an individual spend a number of years in the business. A chef with 32 years with the apprenticeship has spend 17 years in the business already and therefore can be fit to be an executive chef of a five star hotel with 6 outlets. 

I believe it is more the question of the individual, how did he or she spend the years after the apprenticeship, hanging out in the bars every night after work or having spend a more productive live to learn more. Well maybe you disagree with me, but making age a point here, I believe is completely wrong. As i know many chefs in their mid 50th today and knocking doors and are begging for jobs and they admit just having lived live to the fullest and forgot to build their horizon. Therefore in the past 30 years since the apprenticeship I believe, I had apple time to build and learn more.

Regards


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## joey montoni (Apr 23, 2006)

Hey, back to the ve3gtables. I'm confused. The chef is talking like someone voted the french to take charge of termanologies. In the old country, wit all do respect, we are not speaking brunoise and all the other french terms. If I want eggplant diced up, I get it.
I ben reading a while here. There a lot a guys who give some prety good advice. and when someone has a question, they usually get a pretty good answer. but you can see the difference between chefs. Some just answer the questions because they been there and done that and, some, no dicriminination meant, some sound like there reading from a book. Anyway, mabe the cooking schools teach you the french terms, but from what I can see, it's my job to teach my cavones what I want, and that terminology does not seem to be an exact science. corse you would probably classify me as one of THOSE, you know, the ones who didnt go to the fancy classicall joints. Just been kicken around for 48 yrs chefin.
ciao
tomi


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Dear Chrose, 

I don't want to keep the water boiling here. However I do believe in facts of live. You say I am generalizing but I don't and for that purpose I went into my small library and took out an old American cook book written by MRS. RORER (title: MRS. RORER"S COOK BOOK a manual for home economics) published by ARNOLD AND COMPANY PHILADELPHIA (copyright 1886 by Mrs S T Rorer All rights reserved). 

This book some how today is with me and some how since April 10 1906 in Swiss hands, well we do have some family in the US too since migration started. 

However looking at it, is for me clear, were simply your country did not develop over years in culinary arts, after the second world ware, were fast food, drive in movie theaters just mushroomed, well they call it the golden years or the gold rush before that? 

I am not an anti American or so, I humbly believe in the word of freedom of speech, even though, I am too young to speak turning 45. 

I have three beautiful children they are right now in the age to argue, as they have self interest. As a father since they were born, I made a commitment to myself, what ever my children want to be they shall be as long as they study and study right to be. I don't mind if my second son truly wants to be an artist, as a father as long as I live I will support him. Well I believe the hardest profession in live is to be an artist or a cook, but once they are dead their fruitless paintings and writtings of their times are so expensive in the future. 

What I actually want to say, a weighing scale and the metric scale of measurement is for me fare more accurate as the cups, spoon, tea spoon and etc. As internationally these measurements are produced in China these days and we did run test and therefore I know, you are better off with the metric system. 

But if you would be interested what Mrs. Rorer wrote in her time, I am willing to post the most unknown and exiting recipes on this site practiced in the US in 1886. 

Regards


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

this has got to be a joke. no?
FYI I don't know anyone who measures with cups and spoons. Lets get the facts straight. So we again are going to generalize and say the american can't be as good as swiss because of the way we measure. And that is based upon a home economics book? Let's get real here. This is the mentality the US chefs had to put up with all through the last couple of decades. You're not anti american? lease go back and reread all your posts. Which by the way have offered absolutly no practical knowlege except regurgitating out of books. Sorry to be so nasty but to tell me the US has not developed in the Culinary Arts is the hugest insult of all the ones you have thrown out there. I would never say that european are stuck in a rut. Some of the older ones are still living in the dark ages. PLEASE stop trying to make Europe, especially Swiss, to be some sort of elite culinary race. There is just as much negetives in your enviornment as the US. Try talking to the US pions in the eyes and not looking down at us. You are not a very good example of the Swiss people.
I happen to know, ok! I lived in Lake Zurich abd left my home every morning to catch the lake ferry into town. So you should know where I was working, not to hard to figure out. I don't have go around and make like I'm better then someone else. I also met a few scleppers while working over there.
Au heck, your nothing like the wonderful people I met and stayed with over ther. Boy, I wish I could be as articulate as some here.
We never progressed in the culinary arts. Well at least we can be thankful that you feel for us.


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## shahar (Dec 15, 1999)

Panini!

Thanks for putting in words what I've been too lazy(those fourteen hour shifts and all) to say myself.
Escoffier was great and is probably still relevant, but there's a place in the world for mozart and the beatles, frank zappa and schubart.
French and europeans didn't invent food or cooking. Not the food there isn't great at times.

If there's any problem with the cooking schools in the states is how much french centric they are. They teach french french french and then add one day on thai food.
I find myself with cooks telling me their teachers tell them what I do in the kitchen is wrong, my techniques are wrong. Well, my base is indian food and it's ingenious use of spices. I don't like pre browning meat for braising, or dicing the onion nicely. I just make an onion spice paste and cook the meat in that. Comes out amazing. "But chef, you're wrong"...


Sorry. I'm getting angry here. You're doing a great job panini, I'll stay quiet.


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

We mustn't forget why we participate in this forum. It is to
share ideas, learn, and take a little time out to enjoy others
points of view. I would caution some not to wear your hearts
on your sleaves. I don't think it is anyones intent to judge others.
Although I have enjoyed the flaring tempers, I must say a little
lighter mood is in order.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I must humbly agree with Chrose and Panini on this one. Chef Kaiser's posts, while well-meaning, come off as superior, elitist, pedantic and egotistic. I've been reading these threads and trying to keep my mouth (or fingers as the case may be) quiet. Sorry, I can't any longer.
It may very well be a case of English being a second or third language, but his consistency of style leads me to believe otherwise. 

To assert that chefs are the ones who nourish humanity is arrogant in the extreme-people have been cooking, eating and nourishing themselves for eons before the concept of a chef or restaurant came along. The people most truly accomplished chefs credit for their talent and passion is usually their Moms or Grandmothers. Just about everybody older than 35 learned basic cooking skills at the end of a woman's apron string. To credit the French chefs Careme and Escoffier as being the inventors of cuisine is additionally erroneous. They just happened to be some of the first professionals to document what they did, that's all. 

There is a fascinating book of table traditions and culinary expertise written by a slave from Virginia in 1789 (I think that predates any of those french guys) that documents all the recipes, table settings, entertaining and service traditions used in the local plantations of his day. The writing style and cooking represented is truly elegant and reflective of the traditions and tastes of the time, just as Careme and Escoffier are. It also happens to be the first book ever published by an African American. But is it bettter than the French because it's older? No. Just as the French documentarians, it's only a historical glimpse into what was done there, at THAT time.

Criticizing American cuisine as being only fastfood and hamburgers is as ignorant and trite as saying "real men don't eat quiche." Get over it. There is truly brilliant cuisine happening here and there always has been-you just have to look for it. It gets my nose really out of joint when I read reports of American chefs going to Paris to introduce American haute cuisine. All of the chefs were originally from Europe, and they used ingredients like foie gras and truffles! What's American about that? It's just regurgitation of the same old world styles-not truly innovative. Nowhere on their menues were ingredients like chilies (in thier infinite variety), corn, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peanuts, turkey, blue or dungeness crab, cranberries, blueberries or any of the other foods indigenous to the Americas. (OK, maybe they did use some tomatoes and chocolate.)

To assert that any of these items, or the method of common measurment in the states is inferior shows more about what the writer doesn't know than his expertise. BTW, the reason most cooks in the USA use volume measurments than weights comes from the transient nature of our history. Scales break and become innacurate as you move them around, but a cup and a teaspoon are always available and usually (but, not always) a reliable method of measuring. Cultural cooking methods can always be traced to the needs associated with the society in which they were established. Does it make one method superior to another? Of course not-it just depends on your needs at the time.

For Chef Kaiser to constantly bombard us all with endless lists of French culinary terminology and set lists of cooking methods says more to me about his insecurities and misplaced pride than genuine interest in the miriad wonderful ways that people all over the world have fed themselves over the course of time.


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## blueschef (Jan 18, 2006)

I too have put off posting here. Obviously I have great respect for chef K as well as Pan, pete, etc. and passion can be hard to articulate into this fourm (therefour it can come off sounding a bit mean), however, lets relak a second and realise the people are different and they indeed cook different. 

I never thought you had to be Italian to cook Italian food or Swiss to make good chocolate. 

I feel as passionate about the basics as the make translating to your employees what you want of them and how you want it made. That being said some people do not have that knowlege and the process of teaching them might be a bit to ardijous (for the short term). Furthermore, the book don't make the cook any more than the jacket makes the chef.

How about a little love and respect here and agree to differ.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ummm, getting back to vegetable cutting styles.....

An onion is an onion is an onion, but how do want the onion cut? Do you want it cut across the rings, for Fr. Onion soup, do you wnat it in large dice? How large, in 1/4's ? 3/4 inch dice?

I really don't give a rodent's posterior as to how many sides a turned potato has or if brunoise garnish for a consomme is 1 mm or 3 mm across. What I want is consistancy within the respective sizes and a "code word" for that particular cut; so with one word, I can tell any cook I want, the size of vegtable I want cut. And this is, if I reason correctly, what Escoffier had in mind when he coined the terms for the various cuts. Yeah, that guy, why does it always go back to that guy? The only reason why it goes back to that guy is because he was the only one who could get some kind of cohesive kitchen organization, be it sauces or vegetable sizes. All things change, and Escoffier is oudated, but if we could get a unanimous decision that the whole world of cooks would respect and follow, in regards to things like sauces and vegeble sizes, we would all be alot better off.

****, call a 1/2" dice "Grundig" for all I care, just make sure everyone calls it that and that everyone has the same size.....


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## godfather_chef (Apr 21, 2006)

i'm new to this forum, and relatively new to the culinary proffession. i myself am only 19, but have already had a world of experiences, some good, some bad. the chef i work for right now (and i whole heartedly agree with him) says that we, as chefs ( i know, i'm only 19, not a true chef, but just hear me out), should respect all of our fellow chefs from around the world, no matter what their background. he's from italy, and naturally thinks that italian food is the best in the world, but he doesn't disregard all of the american chefs as 'incompetent' if you will. he loves to go out and get a good hamburger, and loves chicken fired steak, collard grrens, and black eyed peas. 

i guess what i'm really trying to say is this: as chefs, we must not look down on any cuisine from around the world. granted, french and italian and german and all the european and asian cuisines have been around for centuries, there are food in the united states that do not exist anywhere else. we fuse the different cultures together to make a completely different dish. the french and italians and germans, etc., etc., etc., think that their food is best, and they don't need to fuse it. hence the reason that all the culinary schools use french terms and methods of cooking, because they saw no reason to change, because they were 'the best'. but what we all must realize, is that the world is changing, palates are changing, so we too, must change. we're here to make the customers happy, and in america, we have to cater to many different kinds of people, with many different culinary backgrounds. i'm not saying that french food and italian and.......... isn't great, but why can't we change it to suit our needs?

i have the utmost respect for everybody in this forum who shows respect for everybody else. there is no reason that we should get upset and disrespect each other. thats not what being a chef is all about, at least not to me. i have been through many things in my short life thus far that have humbled far beyond anything that i can imagine. i have had to go through 2 divorces, the suicide of my mother, and most recently, i am starting to recover from cancer. this should have all made me a very bitter person, but it's only made me want to enjoy my life that much more. 

we live in a world today that doesnt have room for egos, or prejudice, or disrepect. i chose this to be my profession, and i don't want to be discriminated against and looked down upon because i didn't go to johnson and wales, or le cordon bleu. i'm going to culinary school at a tech college in atlanta because i can't affordto go to a 'prestigious' culinary arts college, so does that mean that my passion for making great food, and my abilities, and my skills aren't as good? because if it does, then i don't want to be in this profession, i guess you could say, that i wouldn't deserve it, becasue i didn't get the best education. if you think that it's all about where you learned, and not about what you learned and how much you love to do it, then you don't deserve to call yourself a chef.

all i ask is that you don't disregard what i say because of my age or because i'm 'only' going to a technical college for my formal culinary education,

thank you,

dustin

life's too short to eat bad food and drink bad wine


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

_ok, _

_lets all relax and go on, just some observations and points of view, and all points and answers well taken. i am defenetly not angry at any one. some times the kitchen gets hot and that is all the fun to be a chef. _

_regards _


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

GodfatherChef
"i have the utmost respect for everybody in this forum who shows respect for everybody else. there is no reason that we should get upset and disrespect each other. thats not what being a chef is all about, at least not to me. i have been through many things in my short life thus far that have humbled far beyond anything that i can imagine. i have had to go through 2 divorces, the suicide of my mother, and most recently, i am starting to recover from cancer. this should have all made me a very bitter person, but it's only made me want to enjoy my life that much more. "

Thank You, You just knocked me off my ladder and as I hit the ground, my ears are ringing.
Your GD right. There is so much more important things in life.I usually don't slip back. As time goes by, sometimes we forget! I wish you a speedy recovery. It's all about attitude, my friend. You'll be fine. I'm 12 years out and my wife is six years out from cancer and transplants. So we shall stay conected, ok?
Jeff


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## godfather_chef (Apr 21, 2006)

thank you, pan
i appreciate it very much. i wish the best to you and your wife. 
we shall keep in touch indeed


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

To the post prior,
I would be very careful not to make assumptions. Only 
a few connected people within this forum know anything
about the families and past of others. I think it might
be wrong to assume anyone is from a priviliged backround.
No one can know what sacrifices each of us made to get
where we are today. I, for one, don't speak much about 
my sacrifices, because they are mine!!! True, we can not
all be the same, as if cut out from cookie cutters, but a 
big part of what we do depends on doing things the same. 
I often look at cooking as a language. Written and spoken.
There does exist a little room for personal interpretation when speaking, but,
the word must be written the same every time for the language to be
successful. Sure, there are new words that show up in each
years dictionary, but, for the majority of the words, there
can be only one way to spell them. Okay, Okay, a little
hokey I admit. I am only saying that it is okay to take joy
in tradition and custom. Its nothing to be ashamed of. There
are absolutes. I am humbled by the fact that so many others
before me, even in death, offer me the tools to practice my trade.
At times I think the old style culture of cooking will probably die out,
although I hope not. Often I wonder what it would be like if this 
computor melted away and we were all standing in front of each other, 
or if we were working together. Am I that sure of myself? I am.
Would I be up to muster compared to all the others at this post?
I don't know. But, this has been my trade for so long that it is
part of me. I feel more comfortable in whites and checks than in
normal clothes. Oh! I do ramble. Have a splendiferous morning!


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Hi, 

You must be very exhausted, exited and frustrated, why not you reading again what you wrote to me, as you are assuming. 

I am not one of this spoiled once you refer too, I had the chance to grow up in nature, with animals, trees, berries and extremely hardworking and honest parents. 

By the way when I was 10 I had 400 plus rabbits, that was my business. In summer I went to help farmers and before winter I went to the forest to replant trees. 

I do respect nature the most and humanity second as they way you talk learn about nature and God first and thereafter start to cook with respect and believe and understanding. Well also try to understand the 14 cooking methods, so cooking any dishes in this world is just easier. 

Regards


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Dear Stephen, 

Live is a ***** for many and they are desperate as something went wrong along the way. They just believe of what they learned once and believe that is the right thing. In essence they have no tolerance and an open mind, to accept new or old point of views. 

What I posted here with the vegetable cuts, I can see it clearly, it is French language and the pity is most on this site are speaking only English. So they refuse it, French, so hard to learn and why - simply old stuff! 

Well I do speak some languages 6 in all, if you as an English speaker, please at least have the right respect to foreign languages and don't just spell them the way you feel or copy them from a badly translated book, or my better advice don't use them. But fore sure I do understand a no French speaking person and its ego would use French sounding word to impress customers with their Alien sounding menu. Well no point here even to discuss French menu language as I see it often Pommes de terre + a name. Well just show!

Culinary arts has a history with very simple and clear principals, well what I understand today from many of the posts here, you are actually rediscovering them. 

Well let's be honest and clear in live and not arrogant or selfish. Let's understand facts of history first, what brought us thru good and bad times and were we truly stand today within a country within a nation or the world.

TV chef in the US presently do educate Americans if you like it or not, they actually like Mario opens their eyes of simple Italian food. Well Italian food nobody has to discuss with me, it is so simple and clean. It is time that America discovers healthy eating again, drive a way form the fast food restaurant industry, with all the chemicals in the food to preserve them from the processing plant to the 40 plus outlets. 

Well to all, that was my farewell text here, hope you enjoyed my culinary posts about the true history of our old chefs, who live in my heart everyday. 

Regards 

PS: for chefs who fell to stay in touch with me contact Stephen, as a chef you are not selfish and defiantly not arrogant as posted before . As a chef you are an ambassador of healthy food and not junk food.


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

One last reply.

I do not speak french and am a poor speller. I am also mostly from
rural Georgia. At times I can slaughter terms in french as any of you
can imagine. I do know a fare amount of the terms and use them 
frequently. Thank a million Hans. Just having someone listen and take
the time to reply means the world to me. I could give a *&^%$ less
about how your posts came across. I could read between the lines.
I thought you were very eloquent, especially since this is not your first
lanquage. I am in awe of your accomplishments and very respectful of
where it has ultimately taken you. Hope to learn more from you in the
future. I may be a hillbilly, but, with a little help, I'll at least have a firm
grasp on the only trade I know. It was truly and honor. 
The best to you and your family. "Don't let the door hit you,
where the good Lord split you. Will type at you later.

Respectfully,

Even Stephen


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

Stephen,

Well form me I now when to end and here I do end on this site, as I understand when people are to egocentric and not human mined (well just national mined). When people post and before posting don't try to understand between the lines, well you will get into an argument. 

Well as a chef the understanding in between the line is very important, as it happened many times to me as a Food and Beverage Director eventually in young age to understand the qualities of a shy and humble employee in between the lines and the Chef told me. He is a good kid, he just made a mistake. Well so we met over a beer and discussed on how to improve that young man or women. Well and trust Chefs are always accommodating to anybody with a future in live. Like your new assignment in Nepal. 

regards 

HS

But here i end it on this site and please respect as it takes humbly to much energy to explain basics to people who dont read between the lines, well so proud to discover cooking again. Well and well, do it the hard way!

but one thing i have to say, i was soo shy as a young boy. however as i was able with the blessing of my father and mother to become a cook, i lost it clearly to be shy. but still today i do always remember that i was shy. (read between the lines)


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## aprilb (Feb 4, 2006)

Romans...pizzarias....

Yeah...Mr. "History" needs to study more...

My FOURTEEN YEAR OLD DAUGHTER told me about these...

April


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## blade55440 (Sep 9, 2005)

I'll be honest, I just finished culinary school and sometimes I have to stop and actively think what the dimensions are on various cut names. I know some basics that I use often:

small/medium/large dice, brunious (forgive my spelling), julienne, paysanne, rondelle, etc...

But for the most part I think that it's VERY MUCH a "use it or lose it" kind of knowledge. We remember what cuts we use most often, and forget about the stuff we don't ever use, or use on such a rare occasion we have to ask/look it up to verify whether or not we've forgotten it.

I can't remember how many times my chef instructor would walk by and have that look on her face like she wanted to slap me upside the head for having horrible knife skills. She actually had a few metal "cut guides" that we had to use if we screwed up. It was essentially a slab of metal with little cut-outs the size of what we were supposed to be cutting.

Like always though, I think it BEGINS with training, and CONCRETES itself with use. If you don't use it, you WILL forget it eventually. Some things just aren't "like riding a bike".


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## fishman2004 (Aug 9, 2005)

Obviously it helps in communication in any situation to have a universal language that everyone understands, this contributes to understanding and consistency on a universal level,,,, but at the same time as an employer you need to understand that not everyone will come form the same background. Or look at it in the sense of having over 85% of your staff non-english speaking people! Im trying to teach them english, and they are suppose to know french terminology? Not at this point in time, that would be unreasonable. I think a great chef would know the french names and terminology, and be able to teach this to a willing cook, but at the same time be able to adapt and understand that not everyone will know. As long as you can get the cuts you want from your staff, and they are of good quality and consistency, and as long as you can convey your thoughts and wants, have open lines of communication to your staff, then you could call the classic vegetable cuts whatever the **** you wanted to. Infact, I may just change the cut brunoise to "the squirrel cut"....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Think I said that, way back in the second or third page of this thread as well....


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## fishman2004 (Aug 9, 2005)

thats what I get for skipping a page *sigh* I was on my way to work and wanted to make my point before I was late. sorry mate:smoking:


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## pot2 (Jul 4, 2010)

good evening to all


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ancient thread, going back to 2006, if I remember correctly, and  alot of the posters no longer with us.

Why did you pick this one out of the dust?


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## gunnar (Apr 3, 2008)

so you can ask silly questions...obviously.  Hey pot2, welcome to cheftalk.


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## pot2 (Jul 4, 2010)

what are the difference with stocks and mirepoix?


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Wow does this bring back memories! I almost feel like looking up the good Chef Kaiser and starting this back up!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2010)

some exec chef's don't even know the correct terminology... frustrating because they ask you to do a cut and you do it right, but they meant a different cut. i would just demo it to clear up any confusion.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Huy Bui* 


> some exec chef's don't even know the correct terminology... frustrating because they ask you to do a cut and you do it right, but they meant a different cut. i would just demo it to clear up any confusion.


Ahhh the assurance of youth.

The truth is there is not complete consistency in size from kitchen to kitchen. Not even in Paris.

_Alumette_, _baton_ and _batonet_ are particularly hapahazard. No joy there.

On the "good communication is good cooking" side, it's safe to assume _julienne_ and _brunoise_ are annoyingly small and that each_ tourne d'spuds classique_ gets seven sides -- but if you think you can get an exact definition in mm or inches that will survive crossing the street, _Mais beinsur non. _

It's whatever the exec says it is. It turns out (s)he actually knew all along.

BDL


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2010)

BDL, that may be true and whatever chef says goes, but those words have definitions... just because ignorance runs rampant among this profession does not mean we have to perpetuate it. if chef says up is down, then up is down... but that is obviously not true.

my point still stands, just demo it and call it whatever you like, then there will be no confusion.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2010)

Quote:


pot2 said:


> what are the difference with stocks and mirepoix?


They are two completely different things. Mirepoix is 2 part Onions, 1 part Celery, and 1 part Carrots... a common aromatic flavoring ingrdient for french cuisine.

A stock is made by simmering bones/ vegetables in water and aromatics. (sometimes including mirepoix) This is used for soups or flavoring foods.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mirepoix is very often two parts onion, 1 part carrot and 1 part celery as Hui Buy said -- but by no means always. Both the proportions and ingredients are subject to rather significant change. Parsnips are often substituted for carrots, leeks for onions, celery omitted altogether, mushrooms added, a little bit of pork belly added (mirepoix gras), green peppers added, and so on.

A couple of common variations are the creole/cajun trinity of celery, onions and peppers; Italian soffritto; and the Spanish/Latin-American _sofrito _of garlic, tomato and onions.

At its most basic mirepoix is a mix of chopped aromatics used to build a flavor base as part of a more complicated dish. Sometimes it is strained out -- as with stocks; and sometimes it's a featured garnish -- as in many poules.

If you're going to strain it out, you can get away with rough cutting. If it will be served as a garnish, it's usually cut in a medium dice.

BDL


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

All of the vegetable cuts I believe were to develop a sort of consistency in cooking.and prep.That no matter where you went Brunoise meant a certain way. I am 68 years old been in this business since I was 15. Worked in hi end and other places. Have worked in Europe in the Negresco Hotel in Nice and other places. Apprenticed at the Old Hotel Pierre and Astor in NYC.and no matter where it was the termonology  of cooking and prep was the same. The C.I.A. was a storefront in Connecticut run by a woman lawyer who also tried to teach consistency. It was all done for the sake of consistency which I believe is the key to a good restaurant . Escoffier and the rest of the European chefs fostered it and they handed it down to us. They taught us well.

 We in turn taught them . We taught them mass production and how to get it out. When I was in Europe it took 4 cooks to produce a dinner on the line, here 3 guys dish out 200 or more .


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## sissyathome (Sep 20, 2011)

I haven't been a member here for a very long time. Poor me, I was just looking up some French terms I couldn't find in my textbook. I'm happy that since I joined, everyone seems to be helpful and respectful. I am very proud to let others know that I am a member of the ChefTalk community and plan to send my classmates here, as well.

Never did find the answer to my query (what are the dimensions of the macedoine cut?) because I got sidetracked by some negativity from six years ago.

Love it here.

Soon to be "Chef Marian," 60 years young!!!


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

SissyAtHome said:


> ...Never did find the answer to my query (what are the dimensions of the macedoine cut?) ...


Perhaps this will help? https://www.google.com/search?q=mac...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## everydaygourmet (Apr 4, 2012)

the French have a descriptive word for everything, the Spanish have more Michelin stars per capita than anywhere else, on the planet, and a couple of times in the past the Americans saved their collective bacons so they could continue to cook, just sayin...............


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Everyday,
1) If it weren't for France, there never would have been a U.S.
2) As someone who has a fairly strong grasp on U.S., Spanish, European and World history, I can't recall the US EVER doing anything which went very far in Spanish interests. Perhaps you'd care to elucidate. And 
3) Just sayin'.

Sissy,
Pardon my outbreak, and pardon the long delay in giving you an answer.

Anyway... The standard for Macedoine tends to be a little more relaxed than those for other, more rigorous cuts. And even those tend to vary from kitchen to kitchen. 

 If you're working in a professional kitchen where everything is very exact, you cut Macedoine alumette; 
 It's helpful to use a gauge. If you use a knife with rivets in the handle, Macedoine are roughly the same size as rivet.

But it can sometimes be a matter of usage. 

 That is, If you're doing raw fruits for a Macedoine salad, the cubes are around 1/3" square; but 
 If you're doing root vegetables for a soup, they're cut smaller -- around 1/4" square. 

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## everydaygourmet (Apr 4, 2012)

_1) If it weren't for France, there never would have been a U.S. _

_2) As someone who has a fairly strong grasp on U.S., Spanish, European and World history, I can't recall the US EVER doing anything which went very far in Spanish interests. Perhaps you'd care to elucidate. And _

_3) Just sayin'_.

Well BDL, as a member of the oldest US democratic society still in existence I take umbrage and exception to your reference to France, since you have such a "fairly strong grasp on US" history look up "_*Forgotten Founders*_" and get back to me. If you can't find it I'll be happy to email you a copy.

2. Bueller, Bueller anyone? Spanish American War? With defeats in Cuba and the Philippines, and both of its fleets incapacitated, Spain sued for peace.

Hostilities were halted on August 12, 1898, with the signing in Washington of a Protocol of Peace between the United States and Spain. After over two months of difficult negotiations, the formal peace treaty, the Treaty of Paris, was signed in Paris on December 10, 1898, and was ratified by the United States Senate on February 6, 1899.

WWII Franco's regime of open support to the Axis Powers led to a period of postwar isolation for Spain as trade with most countries ceased. U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt, who had assured Franco that Spain would not suffer consequences from the United Nations (a wartime term for those nations allied against Germany), died in April 1945. Roosevelt's successor, Harry S. Truman, as well new Allied governments, were less friendly to Franco. A number of nations withdrew their ambassadors, and Spain was not admitted to the United Nations until 1955.

How did the US help them, The US let Spain off the proverbial hook by exhibiting unpopular catch and release instead of fillet and release!

When the Spanish Civil War erupted (in 1936) after the failed right-wing coup, Secretary of State Cordell Hull moved quickly to ban what would have been legitimate arms sales to the democratically elected Popular Front government of the Second Spanish Republic, forcing the Popular Front to turn to the Soviet Union for support.

The Nationalists, led by Francisco Franco, received important support from some elements of American business.

1.The American-owned Vacuum Oil Company in Tangier, for example, refused to sell to Republican ships and at the outbreak of the war,

2.the Texas Oil Company rerouted oil tankers headed for the republic to the Nationalist controlled port of Tenerife,and supplied gasoline on credit to Franco until the war's end. 3. American automakers Ford, Studebaker, and General Motors provided a total of 12,000 trucks to the Nationalists.

After the war was over, José Maria Doussinague, the undersecretary at the Spanish Foreign Ministry, said, *"without American petroleum and American trucks, and American credit, we could never have won the Civil War.*

Very topical and recent

http://www.newsmax.com/WayneAllynRoot/Spain-financial-collapse-Obama/2012/05/01/id/437629

JUST SAYIN!

the ball is in your court....................care to volley?


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

> If it weren't for France, there never would have been a U.S.


What, exactly, does this mean? France brought the US into existence?

Scuse me, but I believe the continent was here, and well populated too, before any Europeans bumped into it on their way to India.


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## everydaygourmet (Apr 4, 2012)

Agree FoodnFoto, I was referring to the Haudenosaunee, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois 6 Nations, the French called Iroquois


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

SissyAtHome said:


> Never did find the answer to my query (what are the dimensions of the macedoine cut?) because I got sidetracked by some negativity from six years ago.


Well I'm sorry for the OT ranting and rambling and for the miss-information. Cuts are precise. As such they are not subject to interpretation nor do they change with the size of knife you are using. Macedoine is (.5cm x .5cm x .5cm) and is cut from Alumette. It does not change unless the Chef says it changes. Even then it does not change in the classic sense...ever.

Alumette is 1/8 x 1/8 x 2". Batonnet is 1/4 x1/4 x 2". Nothing haphazard about it.

The same for a brunoise. It's 1/8x1/8x1/8 all day long, every day, in every country irrespective of the language.

I think FP hit the nail on the head up thread (or perhaps I should say years ago) when he suggested consistency is the goal.

At the end of the day if a given Chef asks for a precise size and you don't deliver as expected, terminology aside, you need not worry.

The Chef will let you know.

Dave


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Chef Kaiser said:


> Hi to all,
> 
> it always happens to me, when young chefs come with some recipe ideas form the internet, that chefs mention the word small cubes, medium cubes, large cubes, finely chopped, chopped and etc.
> 
> ...


The world is made up of many different people and many different languages.

To some driving slow may mean a totally different thing than to others... hell most countries have different speed limits so you can't even use that as a benchmark.

Just show them what you want - it only takes a few seconds.

"... cut this into pieces like this... this is what I call XXXX, if I ask you to cut something up into XXXX in the future this is what I want. Here... See? Like this... Put this one to the side and compare every now and then.. then take it home and... no just kidding don't take it home that is against the rules... just cut this entire 50 pounds of carrots like this...ok. There you go, well done. Why aren't you done yet?!?!?!"



Part of the reason there is such a diversity of terms is because there is a huge variance in cut size. I learned long ago that one 'chef's idea of bruinoise is not the same as the next chef's. Often they aren't even close... and does it really matter? I would just simply say Yes Chef, give it my best estimate and then take a few random pieces to him and ask if this is what he wanted? Then adjust, check again and get hacking on that box of potatoes!

Sometimes if I was lucky Chef was right there at my station and I could ask for him to make me a sample, those I would take home and get bronzed... just in case!

If I wasn't lucky i'd get a board full of dice all within 0.5mm and they were all either above or below the 'accepted' standard (it did happen once... though I later thought he might have been playing a joke)

Anyway don't sweat it... unless it's paysanned! Then by all means.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Careful all, this is a *culinary* forum, not an historical debating society nor a world politics educational forum. Levity is enjoyed by most but quash the politics please.


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