# Minimum wage



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

So without adding too much political aspects to this, how does everyone feel about the House passing a bill for a federal minimum wage increase to $15.00? Regardless of if it has a chance of ever being signed into law do you think this is a good trend for the food service industry? Here in NY we are facing the challenges of yearly increases and was just wondering if anyone else has had any experiences, good or bad to share.


----------



## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Seoul Food said:


> So without adding too much political aspects to this, how does everyone feel about the House passing a bill for a federal minimum wage increase to $15.00? Regardless of if it has a chance of ever being signed into law do you think this is a good trend for the food service industry? Here in NY we are facing the challenges of yearly increases and was just wondering if anyone else has had any experiences, good or bad to share.


Excellent topic. However, I think non-political people such as those of us in the food industry can have a well reasoned discussion about something like minimum wage without it becoming a referendum or sounding board for politics. Minimum wage is something that we've had to deal with in one way or another in this business and each of us has had to deal with how minimum wage effects our lives.

So, with that said......

I think the charge towards a $15 minimum wage is a reckless attempt to pander for votes from the masses who work for wages under $15 an hour. I'm not saying that the current Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour is reasonable because its not. However, most states have their own minimum wage laws that are higher than the Federal minimum wage so, how much of a practical issue is this? Yet, just because the state's minimum wage laws may be higher than the Federal minimum wage, that does not guarantee that a worker will make more money as the folks in Seattle, Washington have discovered and the people of New York are going to discover with many bitter tears.

Food industry workers in Seattle were actually making more money per month before the increase in the minimum wage. Why? Because despite the fact that the minimum wage is higher, employers have cut back the number of hours (and employees) to offset the increase in payroll costs. On the average, workers in Seattle are earning about $200 to $300 less per month according to an analysis that was commissioned by the City of Seattle.

So, let's look at this from an operational perspective.

By far, the largest portion of a food business' overhead is going to be its administrative costs such as payroll, insurance etc. There is a balance between overhead and revenue that must be maintained. That relationship is also proportional. If the overhead costs increase, revenue must increase or overhead must be cut in some other area. Ultimately, the business must find a way to mitigate that increase in order to protect its profit margins. And if there is one thing most of us know all too well is that the profit margins in this business are paper thin. So, that leaves us with fewer options than most other businesses.

There is a simple rule when it comes to business dynamics: the value of an employee's work product must always be greater than the cost of their compensation. In other words, paying a worker $15/hour to flip a burger is not feasible nor is it sustainable. Why? Because in order to do that, the business must either hire more part time workers to do the same work - in other words 4 part timers to cover the same 8 hour shift as opposed to one employee to cover the same 8 hour shift. Its cheaper to pay 4 people to work 2 hours at $15 an hour than it is to pay 1 person to work 8 hours at $15/hour. While the cost per hour is the same, the difference is part timers are typically not entitled to benefits or overtime unlike the full time employee.

Another option is to transfer the increase in payroll costs to the consumer. But, there is limit to how much the general public is willing to pay for a burger. If the cost is too high, the customer base will dry up. No customers = no business. Many businesses in Seattle, especially locally owned businesses who could not sustain the increase in minimum wages, have either closed their doors or moved their businesses outside of Seattle's city limits. Many of those that stayed have experienced a drop in revenue due to increased costs of their goods and services. In short, consumers are going to the businesses outside of Seattle because its cheaper.

Seattle has also reported a higher jobless rate since the increase in minimum wage. In 2015, the jobless rate statewide was about 3.3%. As of June, 2019, that rate has increased to about 4.5%. There is more than just a temporal relationship between the increase in minimum wage in Seattle and the statewide increase in the jobless rate.

What about collateral effects of a $15/hour wage?

Tipping, for instance, will probably disappear. One of the drawbacks that service industry workers are experiencing in Seattle is the loss of revenue from tips. Customers have taken the position that because the food service employees are making $15/hour, they are no longer tipping or tipping a lot less. That means two things: 1) a higher portion of the worker's income is now visible to the IRS; and 2) some workers, especially in the higher end establishments who were averaging more than $15/hour with tips, have actually taken a pay cut.

So, I think the drawbacks of a $15/hour wage far exceed the benefits, which exist mostly on paper. The bottom line is that hourly wage employees live on their take-home pay and the size of that take-home pay is determined by the number of hours they work multiplied by their hourly rate. If they are making more per hour, but, working less hours, they have not taken any substantive steps forward financially.

Think about it. Who would you rather be? The person that works 40 hours per week + overtime earning $12/hour or the person who earns $15/hour and works only 25 - 30 hours per week with no overtime?

Now, New York is particularly vulnerable to the effects of this new wage law. New York has been hemorrhaging industry for the last 25 years. New York State is losing population faster than the next two states combined. Why? Because doing business in New York is literally cost prohibitive even without a $15/hour minimum wage. High taxes, high insurance costs (especially workers' comp and liability), high cost of living, a corrupt bureaucracy and a shrinking skilled work force drive businesses out of New York and prevent new industries from setting up shop there.

These factors are not being considered by those who blindly support a $15/hour wage increase. Why? Because most of them have never seen the operational side of a business. Most simply get their schedule, come to work, punch in, do their job, punch out and go home. Most don't see how the business operates on the other side of the punch clock and consequently, cannot understand how a mandatory wage increase to $15/hour can harm a business, especially in the food industry.

There's an old adage: if the deal is too good to be true, then, it probably is.

Cheers!


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The $15 minimum wage doesn't stop there. Everyone who was making $15 an hr will also get a raise and so on, and so on and so on. Therefor I feel you'll see a lot of people getting laid off. You will also see less service and more self-service. Fast food will be simi fast food. Get used to talking to a robot and pushing buttons on a menu board. Pay at your table is already being used, order at your table will be coming soon, pickup your food at the counter will also be on the agenda. You'll wonder why you're leaving a tip because there won't be much in the way of services offered. The Dollar menu will be the $5 menu. I'm just happy I'm not in business anymore......ChefBillyB


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Being only 3 hrs away from Seattle/Tacoma I can report that tipping is still alive and well there in the hospitality industry. The ubiquitous credit card machine will still prompt you to tip 20% with “other options available”.

Vancouver will, too, bring in a $15.00 minimum wage in the next year. On the one hand, housing/rent is the highest here then anywhere else in Canada, and pretty darn close to N.Y. City.

After the last min. wage hike I stopped going to Mcd’s. You now have to line up to order and pay, then line up again to wait and pick up your order. It just ain’t worth it.

Paul-ticks aside, if the cost of living goes up, wages have to as well.

The day may well come when people figure out it’s cheaper to make a thermos of coffee and samiches at home, then it is to eat at a deli with $10 for a sammich and $3.00 for a drip brewed coffee. Come to think of it, that’s what my Dad did....


----------



## Innocuous Lemon (Apr 29, 2019)

min wage goes up, tronc input into wage from service charge comes down. All the same in the end.


----------



## toddhicks209 (Nov 14, 2017)

I don't think the federal minimum wage should be raised higher than the 11-12 dollar an hour level.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Just for arguments sake, compare what a plain-Jane 1bdrm apt. would rent for in your area, and in a large city like N.Y. Or L.A...


----------



## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

My feeling is that restaurants became dependent on minimum wage workers when owners decided that an army of idiots in the kitchen was better than holding on to key tenured, efficient employees.
The day the business became more important than the talent needed to run it, being a cook or chef devalued to almost nothing. 
All this whining when the truth is there are too many crap franchise restaurants who just dont wanna pay.


----------



## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

For those of us who have operated a business in the food industry, here is a simple Q & A. 

Here are the givens:
1. Minimum wage has just increased to $15/hour;
2. Your payroll has just increased by 40%, not including payroll tax;
3. Your supplier has just implemented a price increase of 15% across the board to accommodate the minimum wage increase;

How do these changes effect your business and your margins?

What changes will you make in response? 

The answers that appear in response to this hypothetical scenario constitute the reality of how this wage increase effects the food industry from the business perspective.


----------



## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I owned and operated my own restaurants till I sold them. Higher costs of goods are nothing new. And these are the types of things that contribute to the 80% failure rate of restaurants. I solved this issue by knowing how to buy food efficiently and by not having any excess layers of ownership or management to pay off. In my experience it was usually management and administration costs that sank a business as much if not more than an overpaid dishwasher.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The trickle down effect is what will kill many places. It's not just they, who will be paying the wage increase, but everyone they do business with as well.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

peachcreek said:


> My feeling is that restaurants became dependent on minimum wage workers when owners decided that an army of idiots in the kitchen was better than holding on to key tenured, efficient employees.
> The day the business became more important than the talent needed to run it, being a cook or chef devalued to almost nothing.
> All this whining when the truth is there are too many crap franchise restaurants who just dont wanna pay.


While I would mostly agree with you, I would like to add that where I am located at least there is a major shortage of skilled labor. A lot of the times business may have to rely on unskilled labor simply because the labor pool is so small. Most of the fine dinning maintains their skilled labor for long periods and fast food chains snap up the lower end which leaves a huge gap in the middle.

I understand wanting wages to keep up with cost of living but at least here in NY it is so hard because the taxes are so high. The Walmart here has already converted 3/4's of the checkouts to self checkout and trying to find an associate to help you in any big box store is like playing a game of where's Waldo. Not to mention more often than not if I go to a fast food place they either screw up my order or forget something and I'm only ordering a couple items. All in all I think it is like a lot of other things where they are trying do a sweeping change for a lot of people without taking into consideration the effects of individual pockets that it will affect.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

peachcreek said:


> My feeling is that restaurants became dependent on minimum wage workers when owners decided that an army of idiots in the kitchen was better than holding on to key tenured, efficient employees.
> The day the business became more important than the talent needed to run it, being a cook or chef devalued to almost nothing.
> All this whining when the truth is there are too many crap franchise restaurants who just dont wanna pay.


My thought is do we really need 50 food establishments per square mile? Let them go out of business- thinning of the herd. What survives will do more business and be more profitable and hopefully they can pay their employees properly.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Not only


halb said:


> My thought is do we really need 50 food establishments per square mile? Let them go out of business- thinning of the herd. What survives will do more business and be more profitable and hopefully they can pay their employees properly.


Or, to put it another way:
Businesses offer a unique product and service at a price that is sustainable. 
This has been my business motto for the past 20 years-If Johny across the street is selling apples, I will sell oranges....


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Sure, those 50 establishments will thin out leaving only the chains, while the mom and pops will have to go out of business.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

chefross said:


> Sure, those 50 establishments will thin out leaving only the chains, while the mom and pops will have to go out of business.


Yes and here even the chains are starting to close leaving vacant buildings all over the place. We are too saturated with fast food and chains every where here. They build Starbucks and Mcdonald's less than 3 minutes driving time from one another and push out any chance for some real restaurants to go in. Add to that that the only main strip of "upscale" dining downtown is always changing due to ridiculous tax rates and we have a recipe for disaster.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

chefross said:


> Sure, those 50 establishments will thin out leaving only the chains, while the mom and pops will have to go out of business.


Well, that should tell you something. If only the chains are left it means the population only want's crap food. That's why a decent restaurant isn't going to get enough business to be sustainable. If they did their homework before deciding on that location they should have seen that. Market research. Unfortunately demographics do change over the years for established restaurants that can make them unprofitable.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> Unfortunately demographics do change over the years for established restaurants that can make them unprofitable.


This exactly. Private restaurants used to be able to survive as they were the main if not only game in town. A lot of the area has changed and developed so with that came all of the chains and franchises.



halb said:


> Well, that should tell you something. If only the chains are left it means the population only want's crap food.


I would say yes and no to this for a few reasons, at least in my area. One is that there is literally a dozen chains for each private owned if that. Also, convenience comes into play when you can go to a chain with a family and be done faster and located near all shopping, grocery stores, ect. Plus as a society we have presented chains as "upscale" dining in some instances without the knowledge to the public about how the food is prepared or where it comes from. So I don't think the population necessarily always wants crap food so much as it is what is available to them. It's much easier for a family of four to go out to Applebee's and not drop a mint for dinner over trying to find parking downtown to go to a better private restaurant with $30 entrees.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

chefross said:


> Sure, those 50 establishments will thin out leaving only the chains, while the mom and pops will have to go out of business.


Not really....

The last business we had, the chocolate business was a textbook example of a M&P. When the cost of bulk couverture went up, we rolled with the punches and adjusted our prices accordingly. When minimum wage went up, we worked a bit harder and longer for a few months, then eased off and got a p/t back in. 
Being small has a few advantages, one of them being extreme flexibility, and not waiting for head office to o.k. your request to go wee wee...


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

[QUOTE="halb, post: 601807, member: 72459.....Market research. Unfortunately demographics do change over the years for established restaurants that can make them unprofitable.[/QUOTE]

It used to be that Shopping malls were a guaranteed thing. The last 5 years or so, the major malls around here have lost their anchor tenants and are really struggling to fill retail space. They still charge a lot, and they still want a slice of action, and they still love chains, because chains usually have huge nationwide advertising campaigns.

Still, the last T.g.i.f. went belly up in a large mall over 5 years ago and it's still vacant. Mcd's has shut down several locations here and not replaced them, Stah-bucks too.


----------



## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

Seoul Food said:


> This exactly. Private restaurants used to be able to survive as they were the main if not only game in town. A lot of the area has changed and developed so with that came all of the chains and franchises.
> 
> I would say yes and no to this for a few reasons, at least in my area. One is that there is literally a dozen chains for each private owned if that. Also, convenience comes into play when you can go to a chain with a family and be done faster and located near all shopping, grocery stores, ect. Plus as a society we have presented chains as "upscale" dining in some instances without the knowledge to the public about how the food is prepared or where it comes from. So I don't think the population necessarily always wants crap food so much as it is what is available to them. It's much easier for a family of four to go out to Applebee's and not drop a mint for dinner over trying to find parking downtown to go to a better private restaurant with $30 entrees.


Yah.
So, how about if a person decides to open a restaurant that actually fills a needed niche in a community that is needing of more restaurants instead of thinking a restaurant has to kowtow to some idea that location and great food/ high cost are somehow connected? I find most people on the restaurant business are in it for money or ego or 1000 other reasons besides being in the community to fill a needed space and resource for the people living there. The same goes for menus and everything else. I see more of a big ball of contrived bullshit more than I see a healthy restaurant community/economy in the US these days. It has devolved to feed lot thinking for feed lot pricing and treating cooks and chefs like they work in a feed lot. But that's only my opinion.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

peachcreek said:


> I find most people on the restaurant business are in it for money or ego or 1000 other reasons besides being in the community to fill a needed space and resource for the people living there. The same goes for menus and everything else.


Oh yeah. Just open a restaurant any place you can because you think you can cook. Don't bother to think about the other 90% of the equation and that's knowing you have no idea about business.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

halb said:


> Well, that should tell you something. If only the chains are left it means the population only want's crap food. That's why a decent restaurant isn't going to get enough business to be sustainable. If they did their homework before deciding on that location they should have seen that. Market research. Unfortunately demographics do change over the years for established restaurants that can make them unprofitable.


When the word "upscale" is given to places like Applebees, or Olive Garden, or TGIF, then we change the demographics completely.

Even if a non-chain, does their market research, and builds a successful restaurant, a few years down the road, what's to stop McD, BK, or Wendy's from coming in to compete?

And...yes, people are used to eating that "crap food" because it's what the chains perceive they want. If more energy would be used by those research and development Chefs for the chains, perhaps they could come up with more healthy options.
As to the places that continuously sell the same old sandwiches, burgers, wraps, and salads, perhaps it's time to come into the 21st century.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

peachcreek said:


> Yah.
> So, how about if a person decides to open a restaurant that actually fills a needed niche in a community that is needing of more restaurants instead of thinking a restaurant has to kowtow to some idea that location and great food/ high cost are somehow connected? I find most people on the restaurant business are in it for money or ego or 1000 other reasons besides being in the community to fill a needed space and resource for the people living there. The same goes for menus and everything else. I see more of a big ball of contrived bullshit more than I see a healthy restaurant community/economy in the US these days. It has devolved to feed lot thinking for feed lot pricing and treating cooks and chefs like they work in a feed lot. But that's only my opinion.


I think because unfortunately location/great food/high cost are more often than not connected. If you have a great location but crap food you are going to go out of business, just as if you have a bad location but good food you will probably also struggle. The difference may be with the high cost/great food as those don't necessarily go hand in hand unless you are doing a specific type of cuisine or using certain ingredients. But the high cost could be due to the location as well, not just the raw product cost.

As for people going into business for profit or ego, I don't really know why you wouldn't. The whole point of a business is to make a profit at some point, even the most upscale, cutting edge crazy food philosophy type place will need to make a profit eventually. Filling a niche your community may not have will help your business plan but doesn't guarantee success. We have plenty of small niche restaurants here that are never packed simply for the fact that they are catering to a specific type of diner.

I agree that the general restaurant scene outside of major metropolitan areas seems to be going towards that feed lot mentality you are talking about. A Golden Corral opened here a little while ago and it was in the news all the time and people were so excited for it. Now it is always lines out the door. But as some aspects of the industry devolve into this it brings us back to the point of do we think paying workers (who may or may not be unskilled) higher wages while basically giving a big middle finger to all the skilled labor whose wage gap will be shrinking. Again I am just speaking for my area but I feel that as casual dining pushes into "upscale" real upscale will be the ones to take the hit as it would be unsustainable to pay line cooks $25 - $30/hr to compete with minimum wage workers.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> As for people going into business for profit or ego, I don't really know why you wouldn't. The whole point of a business is to make a profit at some point, even the most upscale, cutting edge crazy food philosophy type place will need to make a profit eventually.


Problem is ego often wins out and they wind up in the hole because they are too thick headed to know when to quit.

We have a restaurant/bar near here that went into bankruptcy. Couldn't pay his bills and owed thousands in back rent and finally the marshals came and padlocked the place. So what does he do? He talks some deep pocket backer into helping him open a new place (same name) in a strip mall a couple of miles away.

He couldn't make the first place work, what makes him think that he will make this new place work?


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

This is all scary stuff. Why have culinary schools then if all that will be left are the big boys, whose only cooking skill is to listen for the beeper so you can flip that burger?

If all that will be left for restaurant choices are Golden Corrals, then we're in deep trouble.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

chefross said:


> This is all scary stuff. Why have culinary schools then


Well, maybe culinary schools should require at least a two year degree in business management and hospitality together with maybe 1000 hours documented work experience in a commercial kitchen as prerequisite before they will accept you.

But if you do all that what do you need culinary school for? So the only thing that will ever be required is cash.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Degree in business management as a Pre requisite? Are we talking about teaching cooks cooking skills or Chefs how to run a kitchen?

A simpler approach would be the European apprenticeship model: The future cook seeks an employer willing to hire him/her on for a three year period, then goes to school one day a week for those three years. The bonuses of this arrangement are that the apprentice remains employed after graduation, as well as not incurring any school debt.

Honestly now, if in the future only Applebees and Red Lobster would exist, would you celebrate your partners b-day or anniversary there?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Are we talking about teaching cooks cooking skills or Chefs how to run a kitchen?


If all you are going to aspire to is a cook then you are right. But your ultimate goal should be head Chef or owner. If you just start out working in this business you pretty much stagnate. Few will advance and even fewer will be able to afford to get an education. That's why they wind up flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.

What I'm talking about here is the basis of a culinary trade school.



foodpump said:


> A simpler approach would be the European apprenticeship model: The future cook seeks an employer willing to hire him/her on for a three year period, then goes to school one day a week for those three years. The bonuses of this arrangement are that the apprentice remains employed after graduation, as well as not incurring any school debt.


That's good but do they learn anything about running a business? I'm pretty sure even the CIA provides some business courses.

You don't need school to learn to cook but you will need some schooling in business if you want to make any money at it.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

foodpump said:


> Honestly now, if in the future only Applebees and Red Lobster would exist, would you celebrate your partners b-day or anniversary there?


 LOL!!! I haven't been to a Red Lobster since I moved out of my parent's house many many moons ago. Applebees didn't even exist back then. I guess I am a snob, but I refuse to pay good money for crap. Maybe I am not a snob...just cheap. I can't even remember the last time I had fast food or what it even was! I can't justify buying a slice of cheesecake from Restaurant XYZ as opposed to Restaurant ABC when the only difference is whether they bought it from Sysco or U.S. Foodservice, who both bought it from the same cheesecake maker to begin with.

Not sure what this has to do with minimum wage, but I couldn't help myself.

Raising the minimum wage doesn't help really help the lowest payed sector, it just hurts the sector that is a step or two above, which includes the vast majority of fine dining kitchen employees.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

halb said:


> You don't need school to learn to cook but you will need some schooling in business if you want to make any money at it.


 I disagree with the second part of this opinion. I had minimal formal training in running a business. I learned much more being in the industry. The real learning began when I became an owner. I am not against school. I am not an advocate for school. I *am* for learning, wherever it takes place. The world is one big classroom. Is the student ready?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Here's a guy that has an interesting take on wages and employment. At 13:00 he talks about Seattle and the restaurant minimum wage.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

He raises some interesting points and logic, however since I have been cured of ownership for 15 years now, I am not sure how the points and logic he brought up would have impacted my business.

I can't help but think that a $15.00 minimum wage would have meant shuttering my doors before the seeds that were planted would reach maturity and bear fruit. When I was an owner, I endured a few hikes in minimum wage over a couple of decades and I do know that they did not have a positive effect on my restaurant's bottom line. I can't say that my personal bank account swelled during these time periods either.

If I were a plutocrat, I would embrace his thoughts. Not being a plutrocrat, I had to deal with the reality of a real time small profit margin.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

"Degree in business management as a Pre requisite? Are we talking about teaching cooks cooking skills or Chefs how to run a kitchen?"

Why not? If the only thing needed to manage a chain is the business side, because the food is simply heat and serve, that would seem to be the times that we're all looking at in the future.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Eh...no. Chains exist because head office knows everything and has all the right programs and applications for any situation.

No, as kitchen mngr you just need to order the pre selected products from the approved suppliers and follow protocol, that is the job.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

chefross said:


> ....because the food is simply heat and serve, that would seem to be the times that we're all looking at in the future.


Ah, c'mon now. I asked the question in the above post: would you take your Partner to Applebee's to celebrate a b-day or anniversary?

Another question: Would a 5 star hotel charging $400/night for a room, lease out their kitchens to Applebee's and let them take over the entire F&B, including room service and banqueting?

Another question: Would a winery be able to sell an $80 bottle of wine if the entire market only provided $20-$30 entrees?

With my limited 20 years of running my businesses I survived and thrived by providing a unique product/service.
O.t.o.h., the other business tactic that thrives is to buy out and squeeze out all competition, which brings us back to my first question-would you take your wife to Applebee's for her 50th b-day?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

halb said:


> If all you are going to aspire to is a cook then you are right. But your ultimate goal should be head Chef or owner. If you just start out working in this business you pretty much stagnate. Few will advance and even fewer will be able to afford to get an education. That's why they wind up flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.
> 
> What I'm talking about here is the basis of a culinary trade school.
> 
> ...


The curriculum I received concentrated mostly on cooking and product knowledge. Some emphasis was placed on costing, and by the second year we were given a menu, a stack of invoices, and tasked to cost out the menu.

The whole theme of the European apprenticeship system is this:
"Take care of the pennies and the dollars will look after themselves". 
That is to say focus on the lowly apprentice, and with maturity it is pretty much guaranteed that you will have a knowledgeable chef.

Cooking and management are two different skills, yet good management REQUIRES a solid background in cooking with sufficient cooking experience- a good manager should know as much or more about the duties they assign their cooks. A good manager should be able to assume the duties of a cook in an emergency.

So the question is: If you were lending money to someone with a degree in business or hospitality who had less than 6 mths actual work experience-even if the business plan sounds good-would you lend the money?


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

chefross said:


> This is all scary stuff. Why have culinary schools then if all that will be left are the big boys, whose only cooking skill is to listen for the beeper so you can flip that burger?
> 
> If all that will be left for restaurant choices are Golden Corrals, then we're in deep trouble.


I think it will create a huge skill gap. People with degrees or solid work experience will move into management positions and everyone else would be stuck at the low end - low skilled areas.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> Ah, c'mon now. I asked the question in the above post: would you take your Partner to Applebee's to celebrate a b-day or anniversary?
> 
> Another question: Would a 5 star hotel charging $400/night for a room, lease out their kitchens to Applebee's and let them take over the entire F&B, including room service and banqueting?
> 
> ...


First the first questions, if that's where they want to go than yes. Everyone has different tastes and financial abilities so who am I to say what is good or bad for others.

For the second, I believe they would if the corporate restaurant industry pushes out small privates and dominates the industry. Someday they may want to push into higher cuisine as technology and tastes evolve. Which in turn will leave basically two tiers or workers, higher paid middle and upper management for FOH and BOH and low skilled low paid grunt workers.


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

When I started my Business I remembered something some one told me many years ago. This was when I was managing restaurants. They told me to pay everyone every hour cash for that hour worked. Count the money out and do this for 8 hours. At the end of the day or even after an hour or two you will realize what you getting for your money. It makes you realize how hard it is to hand out that money and be able to see what you got for that hour in productivity. I remembered this for years and realized there are always places to cut labor. I also realized most of the people at the time weren't worth $8 to $10 at the time for what they were doing. In all my operations I expected a lot out of my employees and ran my kitchens with half the labor of other places doing the same business and under the same conditions. My point to all of this is, It's not up to the employer to pay an unreasonable wage and not get that amount of productivity needed to have a profitable business. As far as a $15 wage goes for the Restaurant industry it's not even close to being reasonable.....


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

chefbillyb said:


> .... As far as a $15 wage goes for the Restaurant industry it's not even close to being reasonable.....


$15/ hr being not enough, or too much?


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

foodpump said:


> $15/ hr being not enough, or too much?


Too much for what you're getting in productivity. These minimum wage jobs in the restaurant business aren't meant to be career positions. If I were to build a restaurant today I would design it to be a labor saving operation. I see the $15 wage as a job killing wage. I know everyone is talking about Seattle and the higher wage. Someone needs to talk about the restaurants in small towns with Mom and Pop places that can't pay that kind of wage.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I see things from another point of view...

Here in Vancouver, a basic, crappy, 1 bdrm basement suite rents for $900, apartments cost more. Right now, my 21 yr old is renting a smelly, moldy 4 tiny bedroom basement for $2,000/ mth—shared with 3 other guys. I helped him move in, the door in his room will only close if you position the bed diagonally. In a way he’s pretty lucky, only $500 for rent, and as a line cook he’s earning $17.50/ hr. Then again, the room he rents is a sh*t hole.... Now of course the further you move away the cheaper rent becomes, and in neighboring municipalities the rent is significantly cheaper, but you need a car to travel, and gas is crazy expensive here, as is insurance and repairs.

It’s true, pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you offer crap wages, you get crap workers, utilize crap workers, and you have to dumb down everything. Dumb down everything, and you have an inferior product/ service to offer. Just like everyone else, so now you have to compete on price. And on and on it goes, slowly drilling a path down towards China....


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

foodpump said:


> I see things from another point of view...
> 
> Here in Vancouver, a basic, crappy, 1 bdrm basement suite rents for $900, apartments cost more. Right now, my 21 yr old is renting a smelly, moldy 4 tiny bedroom basement for $2,000/ mth-shared with 3 other guys. I helped him move in, the door in his room will only close if you position the bed diagonally. In a way he's pretty lucky, only $500 for rent, and as a line cook he's earning $17.50/ hr. Then again, the room he rents is a sh*t hole.... Now of course the further you move away the cheaper rent becomes, and in neighboring municipalities the rent is significantly cheaper, but you need a car to travel, and gas is crazy expensive here, as is insurance and repairs.
> 
> It's true, pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you offer crap wages, you get crap workers, utilize crap workers, and you have to dumb down everything. Dumb down everything, and you have an inferior product/ service to offer. Just like everyone else, so now you have to compete on price. And on and on it goes, slowly drilling a path down towards China....


Foodpump, I totally understand your point. I started my career in Hawaii . We picked up and moved 3000 miles to Eastern Washington State to give my family a better life. Choices, we all have them.

If living in a large populated area with a higher cost of living demands higher wages then so be it. Why does that have to apply to an area with a lower cost of living???


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

That’s what I don’t understand. In Canuck-land the Fed gov’t doesn’t set the min. wage, instead each Province (State, If you like) has that mandate.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

foodpump said:


> The curriculum I received concentrated mostly on cooking and product knowledge. Some emphasis was placed on costing, and by the second year we were given a menu, a stack of invoices, and tasked to cost out the menu.
> 
> The whole theme of the European apprenticeship system is this:
> "Take care of the pennies and the dollars will look after themselves".
> ...


I'm going to use your words..."aw c'mon."
Where ever did you get the idea that a manger has to know how to cook?
I believe you said it yourself when you commented that business and cooking are two different skills. 
A manager manages people, not the end result of the efforts.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

chefbillyb said:


> Too much for what you're getting in productivity. These minimum wage jobs in the restaurant business aren't meant to be career positions. If I were to build a restaurant today I would design it to be a labor saving operation. I see the $15 wage as a job killing wage. I know everyone is talking about Seattle and the higher wage. Someone needs to talk about the restaurants in small towns with Mom and Pop places that can't pay that kind of wage.


I always used to agree with you that working at a fast food joint was a stepping stone for teens, and stay at home moms, but that isn't the way it is anymore. People from all walks of life are now working at McDonald's, and maybe 2 other places just to make ends meet


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I personally think it comes down to the fact that there is no certification process to work in the industry. It cost me a bunch of money every time I want to bring on as a cake decorator.
For everyone I put through the system I end up taking a bath because they don't work out. 
Ill have someone who is unorthodoxly spinning a cake which doesn't bother me as long as it is right. Then they tell the person next to them they are a pastry chef.
How is that since the don't have a clue how the cake is made that their decorating.
I have new hires at 16,00 who think their sh-t doesnt stink, I keep them because I see potential. thenI have people who have been with me 25 yrs that make 125000. k plus.It's all relevant. I don't care if it's 15.00 an hour, try to find a pot washer


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

chefross said:


> I'm going to use your words..."aw c'mon."
> Where ever did you get the idea that a manger has to know how to cook?
> I believe you said it yourself when you commented that business and cooking are two different skills.
> A manager manages people, not the end result of the efforts.


In the context of kitchen manager or small business manager, s/he should be able to assume the immediate duties of whomever is missing in action until a better replacement can be found. That means expedite, jump in on sauté, grill, salads, desserts, etc., if the situation demands it.

In the context of a larger establishment where you have a Chef who is held accountable for his staff, yes you are correct.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't even know where to start discussing minimum wage without discussing politics. The two don't exist in a vacuum and can't really be separated. The workers of the US have been abused badly for at least fifty years if not longer. Wages for middle and lower income workers have been stagnant since at least the 70's. NAFTA gutted the ag industry of Mexico and most of the manufacturing sectors of the US. True, a lot of money was made but very little of it 'trickled down' to workes in any meaningful way. Now we have low unemployment on paper but 1) a lot of McJobs that require multiple McJobs to survive and 2) a ton of people that have given up on ever finding a job and dropping out of the work force entirely (at the highest rate since the 70's).

I've been a chef and a manager for over 20 years, with almost 30 years of working as a cook. There are business realities that I can't ignore, yet I'm not oblivious to why it's nearly impossible to get good help or stay at full staff. Who in their right mind would bust their ass in a kitchen for $12 if they could sit in an air conditioned call center and make $14? And with full benefits, no less. I know some owners & managers carp that the staff they get aren't worth $15 but look in the mirror- do you deserve their best for $12? In their place would you work for you at the terms that are common now? That includes "on demand" scheduling and working six or seven days to get 30 to 35 hours? An enterprising person would be better off picking up tin cans and mowing lawns, cleaning gutters, etc.

Restaurant work used to be a great opportunity. I started out with just two years of college and no degree, and of course no experience to begin, and within maybe five years of serious application rose to the point where I made pretty decent money. Not 'retire-to-the-French-Rivierra' money but getting buy. As we automate and franchise our way to the 21st century how many kids can work from the dish pit up to Exec Chef like I (and probably a lot of you) did.

The $15 wage push is a symptom of something much larger and more ominous. The middle class has been hollowed out to the point of non-existence. Our system now exists only to pump wealth up to the top. Plutocrats are now even eying the crumbs and lick their chops at the thought feasting on t he few remaining social programs like SS and Medicaid. The pitchfork guy is right and it's a mistake not to see it.

The most successful places here in Bozeman are already paying $15 or more. Rents here are approaching west coast levels and nearly nobody under 40 that I know has their own place. COL is ridiculous for being just a dot in the middle of a giant pasture. But the good places have learned how to pay $15-$17, and some of the $15 places offer full benefits.

IMO the $15 minimum is coming. Like it or not we're gonna have to figure it out.


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

A person can't live on $15 an hour in the greater Seattle area, unless you live in one of the many homeless encampments that are along the freeway..


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

My opinion is that if someone works 40 hours a week they should at least make enough to pay for basic necessities like housing and food for themselves in the area where they work. If we can't do that they wind up on public assistance and we all wind up paying for them one way or another.

I heard some guy on the radio say today that he is against minimum wage, that you pay $15/hr and you get somebody that doesn't want to work. Ever hear of firing them? Does paying $8/hr make you feel better when the employee stands around and does nothing?


----------



## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

phaedrus said:


> I don't even know where to start discussing minimum wage without discussing politics. The two don't exist in a vacuum and can't really be separated. The workers of the US have been abused badly for at least fifty years if not longer. Wages for middle and lower income workers have been stagnant since at least the 70's. NAFTA gutted the ag industry of Mexico and most of the manufacturing sectors of the US. True, a lot of money was made but very little of it 'trickled down' to workes in any meaningful way. Now we have low unemployment on paper but 1) a lot of McJobs that require multiple McJobs to survive and 2) a ton of people that have given up on ever finding a job and dropping out of the work force entirely (at the highest rate since the 70's).
> 
> I've been a chef and a manager for over 20 years, with almost 30 years of working as a cook. There are business realities that I can't ignore, yet I'm not oblivious to why it's nearly impossible to get good help or stay at full staff. Who in their right mind would bust their ass in a kitchen for $12 if they could sit in an air conditioned call center and make $14? And with full benefits, no less. I know some owners & managers carp that the staff they get aren't worth $15 but look in the mirror- do you deserve their best for $12? In their place would you work for you at the terms that are common now? That includes "on demand" scheduling and working six or seven days to get 30 to 35 hours? An enterprising person would be better off picking up tin cans and mowing lawns, cleaning gutters, etc.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more with everything you said, great post. The country has been sold for parts and we were (and are) too busy watching Netflix and reading about the Kardashians.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

PoorlyChef said:


> A person can't live on $15 an hour in the greater Seattle area, unless you live in one of the many homeless encampments that are along the freeway..


I can attest to this. I say those encampments in May when I was there visiting. Wow. I knew that the $15.00/hr. things was going to put a lot of businesses and people out of work. In rural areas this would be devastating.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> I see things from another point of view...
> 
> Here in Vancouver, a basic, crappy, 1 bdrm basement suite rents for $900, apartments cost more. Right now, my 21 yr old is renting a smelly, moldy 4 tiny bedroom basement for $2,000/ mth-shared with 3 other guys. I helped him move in, the door in his room will only close if you position the bed diagonally. In a way he's pretty lucky, only $500 for rent, and as a line cook he's earning $17.50/ hr. Then again, the room he rents is a sh*t hole.... Now of course the further you move away the cheaper rent becomes, and in neighboring municipalities the rent is significantly cheaper, but you need a car to travel, and gas is crazy expensive here, as is insurance and repairs.
> 
> It's true, pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you offer crap wages, you get crap workers, utilize crap workers, and you have to dumb down everything. Dumb down everything, and you have an inferior product/ service to offer. Just like everyone else, so now you have to compete on price. And on and on it goes, slowly drilling a path down towards China....


The problem is you are directly linking the inflation of housing or lack of any good, reasonably priced housing with forcing a business to pick up the slack and provide a mandated higher pay to compensate. Why should the restaurant owner have to pay his workers more simply to pad the pockets of the landlord? Also you already bring up the point that if he moved farther it would be cheaper, being in a desired location is of course going to up the price, which again is the choice of the tenant to pay the rate and live there and the land lord to charge that rate and should have no bearing on the employer. If I choose to buy a expensive car should I go to my employer and force them to pay me more because of my choices?



PoorlyChef said:


> A person can't live on $15 an hour in the greater Seattle area, unless you live in one of the many homeless encampments that are along the freeway..


I believe the argument will return to the fact that the minimum wage should not be anything aspires to be their career salary. If all you can ever make is the minimum wage than a lot of that falls on the individual who should be responsible for their own future, not expectant of the government of business to do the heavy lifting for them.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

> I saw those encampments in May when I was there visiting. Wow. I knew that the $15.00/hr. things was going to put a lot of businesses and people out of work. In rural areas this would be devastating.


A) You bust your ass, get paid $8/hr, have to live in a homeless encampment and are on the government cheese line.

B) You don't have a job, have to live in a homeless encampment and are on the government cheese line.

Which sounds like a better deal?

Like I said, if a business can't or won't pay their employees a living wage they NEED to go out of business. The ones that remain will thrive.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> A) You bust your ass, get paid $8/hr, have to live in a homeless encampment and are on the government cheese line.
> 
> B) You don't have a job, have to live in a homeless encampment and are on the government cheese line.
> 
> ...


While I get the point you are making my argument is what is a "living wage" and who gets to decide that? A living wage in a rural area is going to be vastly different than a city and are we considering a living wage the basic necessities of food, clothing, shelter? Now a days a lot of people consider their phone a necessity, so would a new phone and enough to cover the monthly expenses be included in a living wage? What about if you want to practice a specialty diet that requires expensive ingredients? Should that wage reflect your food choices and types of food you can and cannot eat? Should the wage be able to pay for a 1, 2 or 3 bedroom apartment? Or maybe a house? But how many sq. ft.? People with job skills need to advocate for themselves for their compensation and people who have none should not expect to make the same or have the same things in life as those who work harder or have different skill sets. Would I love to make as much as a CEO? Of course, but I know my skill set is not appropriate for that and I don't think my income should be inflated just because I may want better things in life.

The other issue to comparing minimum wage in the restaurant industry with others. The profit margins can be so small that it could kill a small business, while someone like Jeff Bezos makes more in an hour than his $15.00 employees do in 50 years. Some industries may be able to handle sporadic, mandated increases but again that will never take into account all the different aspects of the workforce that it will affect.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> The problem is you are directly linking the inflation of housing or lack of any good, reasonably priced housing with forcing a business to pick up the slack and provide a mandated higher pay to compensate. Why should the restaurant owner have to pay his workers more simply to pad the pockets of the landlord? Also you already bring up the point that if he moved farther it would be cheaper, being in a desired location is of course going to up the price, which again is the choice of the tenant to pay the rate and live there and the land lord to charge that rate and should have no bearing on the employer. If I choose to buy a expensive car should I go to my employer and force them to pay me more because of my choices?


Simply because if you operate in an area where the cost of living is high you are going to have to pay your workers to live there, unless you want the homeless or other sludge.

It's also ridiculous to think that employees could commute in from some other area where costs are lower if that's what you are thinking.



Seoul Food said:


> Also you already bring up the point that if he moved farther it would be cheaper, being in a desired location is of course going to up the price, which again is the choice of the tenant to pay the rate and live there and the land lord to charge that rate and should have no bearing on the employer.


Sure, but remember that any location where costs are lower usually means that the pay is lower. Catch 22.



Seoul Food said:


> If I choose to buy a expensive car should I go to my employer and force them to pay me more because of my choices?


Not hardly an accurate analogy. How about- I choose to work in your business full time. Is it reasonable to expect that I should be able to live in the same area?

Bottom line is that if you open a business in an affluent area don't think you can suck the life out of your employees to make it work. Part of your business plan should be about paying your employees properly. If you can't do that you don't belong in business.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> While I get the point you are making my argument is what is a "living wage" and who gets to decide that?


There are all kinds of COL data for every area, just use Google.

I do agree that a fixed minimum wage shouldn't be a federal mandate for every place in the Country.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> Simply because if you operate in an area where the cost of living is high you are going to have to pay your workers to live there, unless you want the homeless or other sludge.
> 
> It's also ridiculous to think that employees could commute in from some other area where costs are lower if that's what you are thinking.


Actually a lot of people near NYC live outside the city and commute for hours a day because the cost of living in the city is so high that it can be cheaper to live elsewhere.



halb said:


> Not hardly an accurate analogy. How about- I choose to work in your business full time. Is it reasonable to expect that I should be able to live in the same area?
> 
> Bottom line is that if you open a business in an affluent area don't think you can suck the life out of your employees to make it work. Part of your business plan should be about paying your employees properly. If you can't do that you don't belong in business.


I may not have been able to get my analogy across and I apologize for that, my thought process was that in my example I was trying to illustrate that it was a personal decision and that I should have no expectation that my employer will pay me more because of it. A person's residence, transportation, diet, lifestyle are all personal decisions and it should not be up to the government to force all business to pay people for their personal decisions. Also as far as living in the area, again that is a personal choice. When someone applies to a job, they go into it knowing if there is a commute or not. Sometimes you get lucky and can live nearby, other times not. I worked at a restaurant once that was a 70 minute commute each way with mild traffic. But it was my choice and I never expected my employer to automatically give me more money because I should be living in town instead. I do agree people should pay their employees properly but again who decides what is proper and not? Would you agree that a skilled employee should be paid more than an entry level, unskilled position? I'm sure inflation has outpaced wages but forcing a higher minimum wage is only going to exacerbate that and force companies to pay rising levels of experience and skills higher pay, which in turn will be passed on to the consumers.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> Actually a lot of people near NYC live outside the city and commute for hours a day because the cost of living in the city is so high that it can be cheaper to live elsewhere.


Yes and that's actually why my father decided to move from the City to the North. The commute to NYC was easy and inexpensive because of the rail lines. But that was back in the 50's and 60's. Now it's not quite as attractive because of the cost of the train ride and commuter parking at the stations. Also consider that the COL here has become the highest in the nation. Still, if you are making six figures it can make sense.



Seoul Food said:


> ... I was trying to illustrate that it was a personal decision and that I should have no expectation that my employer will pay me more because of it. A person's residence, transportation, diet, lifestyle are all personal decisions and it should not be up to the government to force all business to pay people for their personal decisions.


Certainly not, but an employer should be required to pay a minimum that gets you the basic necessities so that you won't be living in poverty and be a burden on society. Anything beyond that, like having kids, dependents, cars, etc. is on you.



Seoul Food said:


> Also as far as living in the area, again that is a personal choice. When someone applies to a job, they go into it knowing if there is a commute or not. Sometimes you get lucky and can live nearby, other times not. I worked at a restaurant once that was a 70 minute commute each way with mild traffic. But it was my choice and I never expected my employer to automatically give me more money because I should be living in town instead.


If you apply for a job and are offered a certain pay it's up to you decide if you can afford the commute and if it's justified. The employer shouldn't even care where you live because he could have just as easily hired someone who didn't have to commute for the same pay. So the commute is your problem.



Seoul Food said:


> I do agree people should pay their employees properly but again who decides what is proper and not? Would you agree that a skilled employee should be paid more than an entry level, unskilled position? I'm sure inflation has outpaced wages but forcing a higher minimum wage is only going to exacerbate that and force companies to pay rising levels of experience and skills higher pay, which in turn will be passed on to the consumers.


Certainly if you bring more skill and experience to the table than an entry level employee you should be compensated accordingly. All the employer should be required to pay is the minimum wage, but they are going to have to do better than that for someone with experience. How much more, as well as benefits and perks is the subject of negotiation at the time of job offer or hiring.

I absolutely don't agree that a minimum wage increase needs to reverberate up the employee pay ladder. If someone is already making $15/hr and the minimum goes up to $15, that doesn't mean that that employee should see an increase.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

halb said:


> I absolutely don't agree that a minimum wage increase needs to reverberate up the employee pay ladder. If someone is already making $15/hr and the minimum goes up to $15, that doesn't mean that that employee should see an increase.





cheflayne said:


> Raising the minimum wage doesn't help really help the lowest payed sector, it just hurts the sector that is a step or two above, which includes the vast majority of fine dining kitchen employees.


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

It's all going to collapse on itself because it's not sustainable. Maybe the people with the money can commute to the rural areas for services?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

PoorlyChef said:


> It's all going to collapse on itself because it's not sustainable.


I agree. It's like the layer of mud on the bottom fighting with the layer above it that isn't in much of a better position than they are. The 1%ers have to be laughing their asses off. It's been said that the 4 richest people in the Country together have the same amount of wealth as all of the bottom 40% combined.That's pretty bad.

The only thing that is going to work is creating disposable income for the bottom 40% of the population, in effect creating a new middle class that will have money to spend on things like eating out. Restaurants will prosper along with every other retail business in this country.

I like to call it "trickle up economics" because wealth for all starts at the bottom.

How to do that I have no idea. Maybe we should just suspend all taxes for the bottom 40% for maybe 10 years. That should jump start it.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Seoul Food said:


> The problem is you are directly linking the inflation of housing or lack of any good, reasonably priced housing with forcing a business to pick up the slack and provide a mandated higher pay to compensate. Why should the restaurant owner have to pay his workers more simply to pad the pockets of the landlord? .


Good questions.

Of course a business has to pay for the cost of housing for its employees! If you want your employees to live a maximum of 50 minutes away, you have to acknowledge what basic housing costs are. for that area. If an employee lives 60-120 minutes away you will have to be prepared for lates/no shows due to traffic, weather, road repairs, public transport problems, etc. This puts incredible strain on the business-but more importantly on the other employees who have to pick up the slack. If an employee lives an hour or two away, the odds that employee finds work closer to home within a month of daily commuting are high, as are the odds the employee asking for more money to find accommodations closer by. Basically it's the intelligent and least expensive option for the employer to find workers who live close by.

Ah, the evil landlord...The landlord is not at the top of the food chain. One notch higher is the evil (sh)city with it's even more evil property taxes. Every year the (sh)city appraises the property higher so it can charge more in property taxes-regardless if you've improved the property or not, but if you have, they'll charge even higher. So there's that cost plus the notch higher-the evil, evil banks who ARE at the top of the food chain AND their mortgages. Then there's the tradesmen, the plumbers and appliance repairmen who charge $80/ hr PLUS a truck fee to make a house call. By now you've guessed I are a landlord, both commercial and residential. Thank gawd I've sold the business....


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Just remember this thread the next time we start another rant pissing and moaning about not being to find any decent help. _ Why can't I find anyone to bust their asses for 14 hours a day for $10 an hour?_


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

In 1953 the U.S. minimum wage was $0.75.
In 2019 dollars that translates to $7.25

In 2019 the U.S minimum wage is $7.25.

"Let's raise the minimum wage to help the lowest payed workers" is smoke and mirrors rhetoric by politicians who want to get elected so they can set their own pay rate.

In 1953 a senator made $12,500 a year. In 2019 dollars that translates to $119,917.13.

in 2019 a senator makes $174,000 a year.

_What is wrong with this picture?_


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

halb said:


> It's been said that the 4 richest people in the Country together have the same amount of wealth as all of the bottom 40% combined.T


Two of them live with in 25 miles from my house in giant compounds. I live on the edge of the hood in a condo, lol..


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

Don't forget about the corporate landlords. They are one of many reasons for the homeless crisis we are in today. They come in and buy up old, affordable apartment buildings with existing tenets, kick em out, demolish and rebuild then proceed to charge as much and 100% more for rent. The people that were there before are SOL because of all the other corp apt buildings that are going up in their neighborhoods.. This is what's happening in Cali and the greater Seattle area.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

cheflayne said:


> In 1953 the U.S. minimum wage was $0.75.
> In 2019 dollars that translates to $7.25
> 
> In 2019 the U.S minimum wage is $7.25.
> ...


Meh, Paul-ticians don't need a reason to give themselves a pay increase, they just vote themselves an increase, it's reminiscent of a dog licking its, ummm..private parts in front of company. O.t.o.h.an increased salary doesn't do much if you can't keep your seat as a Paul-titian. I heard you guys have an election coming up next year.....


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

We do, and it's going to be a total sh** show.. I'm expecting riots in the streets, especially if DT wins a 2nd term.. The extremists libs will go nuts..


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

Maybe Alyssa Milanos' head will explode.. We can only hope..


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

foodpump said:


> Meh, Paul-ticians don't need a reason to give themselves a pay increase, they just vote themselves an increase,


Very true but they have to be in office first; and one way to garner votes in order to get elected is to support raising the minimum wage.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> In 1953 the U.S. minimum wage was $0.75.
> In 2019 dollars that translates to $7.25
> 
> In 2019 the U.S minimum wage is $7.25.


I would be interested in knowing what employees of the restaurant trade were paid back in 1953. Betcha none were paid only minimum wage.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> I absolutely don't agree that a minimum wage increase needs to reverberate up the employee pay ladder. If someone is already making $15/hr and the minimum goes up to $15, that doesn't mean that that employee should see an increase.


Maybe I am reading this wrong but are you saying that skilled workers who are making more than the minimum wage based on experience should receive no additional compensation if the minimum wage for the most basic entry level positions rises to their current wage? If so what incentive would they have to continue their work if the added skills and work that need to be put into the position don't pay any reward?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

That's exactly what I'm saying. The law says that I have to pay a minimum of $15/hr and that's what you are making. If that causes your ego or feelings to take a hit go talk to Dr. Phil, or better yet, increase your skills so that you are worth more.

I don't like being told to pay $15/hr any more than you like now being paid minimum wage. Nothing in life is fair!


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I wouldn’t bother with Dr. Phil, I’d be talking to a prospective new employer.

Look, let’s say minimum was $11, and with my experience and qualifications you are paying me $15. Then minimum goes up to $15, which is what you will have to pay some gr.11 kid to wash dishes, do you honestly think I’d still work for $15/hr, same as the kid with no experience?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

I'm lucky to make $75K/yr. Why is some CEO that doesn't work nearly as hard or know as much making $2,000,000/yr? 

Life is not fair but unfortunately some of this generation never got that message. If you are going to let your ego or immaturity affect your life making you unable to deal with what you perceive as an inequity, then by all means go someplace else. You are getting a paycheck same as before. Nothing has changed as far as your are concerned except your mental state. 

And I don't have time to deal with babies.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Watch your suppliers, either they’ll up the prices or charge a”transport fee” ,”delivery fee”, “fuel fee” , “because today is Wednesday fee”, etc., once the new minimum kicks in. 

Watch your employees, they’ll quickly find jobs that pay better once the new minimum kicks in—regardless if they’re “immature” or “egotistical” or not.

Good luck!


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Watch your employees, they'll quickly find jobs that pay better once the new minimum kicks in...


Well, if another employer is stupid enough to feed into it and think they have to up the pay for everyone I'll just wait for them to go out of business. Like I said, survival of the fittest.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> Well, if another employer is stupid enough to feed into it and think they have to up the pay for everyone I'll just wait for them to go out of business. Like I said, survival of the fittest.


Sorry I guess I'm just missing something or not fully comprehending what you are saying. So if employee A is a line cook with 5 years experience and makes $15/hr and employee B is a high school dishwasher who makes $7.25/hr with no prior work experience and the minimum wage is mandated to go to $15/hr, I understand that you would obviously have to pay employee B the $15/hr even with no experience and they would be very happy at the raise, but then employee A should just deal with it and not be concerned about no increase? I'm not saying that employee A has to now jump to $30/hr but I don't understand why you believe anyone with any skill set worth keeping employed would want to stay for no extra money? And if a business owner says that they will pay all positions equal regardless of experience or job responsibilities how would you ever stay fully staffed?

I agree that people should have to improve themselves some way or another to gain more compensation and not just expect it but it's a hard pill to swallow if the lowest skilled, easiest jobs pay just as much as skilled ones.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> Sorry I guess I'm just missing something or not fully comprehending what you are saying. So if employee A is a line cook with 5 years experience and makes $15/hr and employee B is a high school dishwasher who makes $7.25/hr with no prior work experience and the minimum wage is mandated to go to $15/hr, I understand that you would obviously have to pay employee B the $15/hr even with no experience and they would be very happy at the raise, but then employee A should just deal with it and not be concerned about no increase? I'm not saying that employee A has to now jump to $30/hr but I don't understand why you believe anyone with any skill set worth keeping employed would want to stay for no extra money?


That's EXACTLY what I'm saying and probably part of the reason the minimum wage increase has got owners in a panic.

While I applaud your sense of responsibility and ethics, it wasn't YOU who decided to give your dishwasher an increase. It was the GOVERNMENT. The government didn't give your line cook an increase did they? So if he has a problem with any stigma attached to now making minimum wage he can write a letter to his congressman.

Ok, so say you decide to end your line cook's crying and take it upon yourself to give him a raise. So your sous finds out about it and demands a raise also. Then the prep people. Me too, me too!

You are running a damn business, not a kindergarten! ONLY PAY WHAT YOU HAVE TO PAY!


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I dunno, maybe I wasn’t clear in my last post. When the minimum goes up, so does everything else. Yes your suppliers will charge more, the gas stations will charge more, Mal*Wart will charge more, and so will landlords—both residential and commercial.

So, you have a choice, just pay the minimum and watch your experienced employees leave to find jobs that pay to cope with the changes, or you up the menu prices to keep up with the changes. Then again it would be pretty much the same choice if the price of beef went up 45% overnight.

In my neck of the woods, various gov’s have strong armed minimum wage increases several times, leaving the employers to handle the nuclear fallout, and them ( gov’t) the protector of the man-in-the-street. As an employer I’ve been there, don’t have the t-shirt, but I do have a case of custom printed aprons in the garage you’re welcome to...


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

foodpump said:


> I dunno, maybe I wasn't clear in my last post. When the minimum goes up, so does everything else. Yes your suppliers will charge more, the gas stations will charge more, Mal*Wart will charge more, and so will landlords-both residential and commercial.


That's simply not true simply because not many businesses only pay minimum wage like the restaurant industry does. Well, maybe Walmart.

I wouldn't expect a wage increase to come out of profits, so to keep any price increase low that's why I say only increase the pay for whoever you have that is making below minimum. Increasing pay for every employee is a sure way to lose your shirt.

Something to think about here:

https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/...-new-york-citys-restaurant-industry-thriving/


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

What are line cooks paid today in New York?
What were they paid 5 years ago?


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Halb, the article you attached is one-sided at best. Any Google maps to New York city restaurant menus show prices keeping up with the new minimum wage laws. I also found articles that say the minimum wage hike is a disaster to employees who were used to higher pay checks with overtime and tips. Hours are cut and tips are now automatically added to the bill.

https://ny.eater.com/2019/2/19/18226831/minimum-wage-restaurant-reaction-nyc-finances


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, will the $15 minimum wage apply to servers in states with”tipping wages” as well?


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I believe it does not. As here in NY we have separate minimum wages based on those two categories.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> While I applaud your sense of responsibility and ethics, it wasn't YOU who decided to give your dishwasher an increase. It was the GOVERNMENT. The government didn't give your line cook an increase did they? So if he has a problem with any stigma attached to now making minimum wage he can write a letter to his congressman.


Ah I see what you are saying. I think that would work if everyone decided not to raise the rates of above minimum wage employees but that is unrealistic and it will always be a tool for picking better staff. Also while I see what you are saying about the employees taking it up with the government, we both know that the employee will never do that and even if they did government is so inept they will never fix it. (And would you really want government to fix it because their solution would be another mandated wage increase somehow.)


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

cheflayne said:


> What are line cooks paid today in New York?
> What were they paid 5 years ago?


Here in "upstate" NY (Which is really central NY, but anyone above Westchester county is considered "upstate" by the NYC folks) a line cook with some experience is generally $12-$15/hr. We currently pay $13.25/hr starting at my business which is receiving yearly increases because of the minimum wage hikes.

Five years ago it was $11.00/hr starting rate. On a side note I was already making $15/hr over a decade ago so while I agree wages are not keeping up I think the way we are going about it is not correct.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Seoul Food said:


> Here in "upstate" NY (Which is really central NY, but anyone above Westchester county is considered "upstate" by the NYC folks) a line cook with some experience is generally $12-$15/hr. We currently pay $13.25/hr starting at my business which is receiving yearly increases because of the minimum wage hikes.
> 
> Five years ago it was $11.00/hr starting rate. On a side note I was already making $15/hr over a decade ago so while I agree wages are not keeping up I think the way we are going about it is not correct.


Thanks for that, I appreciate it. What about in NYC? Any info I pull up doesn't seem to be up to date if they have already gone to $15.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

I don't know what the pay in NYC is either but I have to think it's at least $15/hr. People in NYC get paid more, are used to paying more so restaurants there can charge more. Not so elsewhere and that's understandable. But it does illustrate the point that when there is disposable income everybody profits. Restaurants can charge more and pay their employees more. 

But all I know is that the pay in this industry has been steadily declining, probably because of the decline of middle class customers with disposable income. I did ask the question "how many restaurant workers only made minimum wage back in 1950". I can't find an answer but I don't believe it was many.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

halb said:


> I did ask the question "how many restaurant workers only made minimum wage back in 1950". I can't find an answer but I don't believe it was many.


What brings you to that conclusion?


----------



## STEPHEN WOODARD (Aug 13, 2019)

There is no answer...….you just can't do it without passing on the cost to the customer and devaluing the hourly wage that is above minimum and will not be augmented. How could you ever explain the lower rung employees suddenly making an hourly wage that a solid line cook makes.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

cheflayne said:


> Thanks for that, I appreciate it. What about in NYC? Any info I pull up doesn't seem to be up to date if they have already gone to $15.


https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-states-minimum-wage


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

halb said:


> ....
> 
> But all I know is that the pay in this industry has been steadily declining, probably because of the decline of middle class customers with disposable income.....


Well, yeah, it could be that. But don't you think that the near-saturation of lower and middle priced chains that rely on non-skilled labour might play a large part?


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Seoul Food said:


> https://www.ny.gov/new-york-states-minimum-wage/new-york-states-minimum-wage


 All the data I have been pulling up about pay rates for line cooks in NYC say they are making $13-15, which obviously can't be up to date although the articles that come up are.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

cheflayne said:


> All the data I have been pulling up about pay rates for line cooks in NYC say they are making $13-15, which obviously can't be up to date although the articles that come up are.


They very well may be up to date. The wage increases come in December at the end of the year to be enacted the following January so if you had a small business with less than 10 employees right now in NYC you could in fact be paying them the minimum of $13.50/hr. It gets confusing because NY made different tiers for different size business but also taking into account location from NYC. (Hence the Long island, Upstate, ect. differences.)

But honestly I don't know how a cook could survive on $13.50/hr in NYC when here it's $13.25 and that's still a hard sell sometimes.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I just have trouble imagining line cooks working for minimum wage. I realize, oh how I realize, that it is not a high paying position; _but minimum wage_, really! I wouldn't do it and it is not because of ego but rather because there are better options even in the same industry.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

cheflayne said:


> I just have trouble imagining line cooks working for minimum wage. I realize, oh how I realize, that it is not a high paying position; _but minimum wage_, really! I wouldn't do it and it is not because of ego but rather because there are better options even in the same industry.


You know how often I hear something along the lines of "but Walmart is paying X/hr or McDonald's is paying Y/hr and I try explaining that you are probably going to get less than part time at these places but all they see are the dollar amounts per hour and compare that to what they are getting/their current work load.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Seoul Food said:


> You know how often I hear something along the lines of "but Walmart is paying X/hr or McDonald's is paying Y/hr and I try explaining that you are probably going to get less than part time at these places but all they see are the dollar amounts per hour and compare that to what they are getting/their current work load.


Oh how often did I hear that phrase when I ran my own businesses!

Vancouver is a movie town and many in the hospitality industry either dream of being a star or earning big bucks as an extra. Many times "eejit s" have jeopardized their steady, albeit lower paying jobs for the opportunity to earn $40 / hr-with the caveat of only working two hours with no other "shift" for a month or so. " you can't fire me for not showing up! I was on set for "the x-files", earning 35/hr"....

Unions in this biz can pretty nasty too. Many times I've hired p/t who will drop everything to pick up a shift at a union hotel ( which ironically pays lower than I did) in the hopes of getting enough hours to comply for f/t status. This can take years to achieve. Some of those guys would have 2 or even 3 p/t jobs to support their union p/t wet dream job.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Some people actually care about their work, too. You should have your head examined if you're 18 and looking at a culinary career circa 2019, but if you do have a drive to be chef you're going to choose an unpaid internship at _The French Laundry_ over a $15 job at Wendy's.


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

halb said:


> I don't know what the pay in NYC is either but I have to think it's at least $15/hr. People in NYC get paid more, are used to paying more so restaurants there can charge more. Not so elsewhere and that's understandable. But it does illustrate the point that when there is disposable income everybody profits. Restaurants can charge more and pay their employees more.
> 
> But all I know is that the pay in this industry has been steadily declining, probably because of the decline of middle class customers with disposable income. I did ask the question "how many restaurant workers only made minimum wage back in 1950". I can't find an answer but I don't believe it was many.


This is why I got out of the restaurant/hotel portion of the biz and also why I get burnt eggs when I go out to breakfast. The restaurant industry is going to the chains.

In 1990 I could afford an apartment, car, food, dating, saving, etc. making $10 bux an hour. Today, I'd have to live in a van and catch the buss person before he/she get to the g-can to eat the customer's left-overs.


----------



## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

phaedrus said:


> Some people actually care about their work, too. You should have your head examined if you're 18 and looking at a culinary career circa 2019, but if you do have a drive to be chef you're going to choose an unpaid internship at _The French Laundry_ over a $15 job at Wendy's.


EXACTLY!!


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

PoorlyChef said:


> In 1990 I could afford an apartment, car, food, dating, saving, etc. making $10 bux an hour. Today, I'd have to live in a van and catch the buss person before he/she get to the g-can to eat the customer's left-overs.


That kinda answers my question about restaurant industry wages back in 1950. You could afford to live off them, not like now.

-Hal


----------



## Gr8fulchef (Jun 27, 2019)

Increased labor costs will get passed on to the consumer, same as tariffs. With a strong economy and high labor demand, the laws of supply and demand will establish the actual minimum wage. I have to pay my dishwasher $11 an hour (min wage in Texas is federal wage). You simply cannot hire dependable people at minimum wage levels. A Federal minimum wage starts making (some) sense when the economy is weak and there is an abundance of labor. In such circumstances you can be choosier about the staff you hire, as there will be more applicants for every position. A sensible minimum will keep predatory hiring practices a little in check. Just my opinion.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Interestingly here in Bozeman there's a hotel/restaurant that's advertising to hire a cook- they're offering $17/hr, a $750 signing bonus and paid vacation as well as AFLAC (which sucks but still). That's _starting_ pay! Another is starting for good experience at $17-$20.

You're not gonna get _anyone_ to do _anything _here for $10/hr.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

So, no good work ethic, no sense of urgency, and no common sense, without more pay than right?


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I can't see this changing anything. The same people who didn't or wouldn't do anything for $10 an hour aren't going to all of a sudden wake up and be fantastic workers. Money doesn't buy happiness or build character. If all entree level employees are making $15 an hour what incentive and how much money would they have to be paid to pile on all the bullshit that happens in a management position. 

IMHO, wages were always a small part of my reason for working for any operation. The satisfaction I got was being treated as an important part of the success of the Business. If I was treated as a valued member of the operation I left everyday feeling a sense of accomplishment. That's what gave me the drive to learn and move up knowing I would be treated well, compensated fairly and respected for my knowledge. When the Government sets a standard of pay that is the minimum a person can be paid to work. That wage will never be viewed as a good wage. That wage will always be viewed by that person as the bottom of the barrel, lowest wage a person can be paid for doing a set job. The Government should stay out of it. The market should determine and set the value of any position in any business. This isn't the 30's and 40's any more when refugees were piling into the country and would work for pennies.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

chefbillyb said:


> I can't see this changing anything. The same people who didn't or wouldn't do anything for $10 an hour aren't going to all of a sudden wake up and be fantastic workers. Money doesn't buy happiness or build character. If all entree level employees are making $15 an hour what incentive and how much money would they have to be paid to pile on all the bullshit that happens in a management position.
> 
> IMHO, wages were always a small part of my reason for working for any operation. The satisfaction I got was being treated as an important part of the success of the Business. If I was treated as a valued member of the operation I left everyday feeling a sense of accomplishment. That's what gave me the drive to learn and move up knowing I would be treated well, compensated fairly and respected for my knowledge. When the Government sets a standard of pay that is the minimum a person can be paid to work. That wage will never be viewed as a good wage. That wage will always be viewed by that person as the bottom of the barrel, lowest wage a person can be paid for doing a set job. The Government should stay out of it. The market should determine and set the value of any position in any business. This isn't the 30's and 40's any more when refugees were piling into the country and would work for pennies.


I agree, I don't think minimum wage benefits the majority of the workforce anymore. The government mandating it doesn't really solve any problems expect rewarding the lowest skilled jobs and workers more money for essentially doing no extra work just so they can go out any buy more things that they want. These are usually low skilled jobs or workers so it is understandable they do not understand the simple concept that increasing their wages will just make everything else more expensive and thus negate any potential plus they may have received. Businesses are in the game to make profits and no one is going to just make less money so joe schmo who barely can do the minimum required by their job can bring home a bigger pay check. It should be up to the individual to advocate for better compensation and if they cannot reasonably show that they are worth an increased investment than move on. No one is going to get stuck working for third world country wages and honesty if they do that's on them for either undervaluing themselves or being to incompetent to know any better.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Umm....the cynic in me thinks a fed. gov’t mandated nationwide minimum wage increase =
A) a substantial increase in income tax revenues, which of course are collected by the employer, and it is the employer held accountable for the precise amount of income taxes deducted from each and every paycheque of each and every employee.

B) Optical illusion of “standing up for the little guy”, which by sheer coincidence happens before a federal election.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> Businesses are in the game to make profits and no one is going to just make less money so joe schmo who barely can do the minimum required by their job can bring home a bigger pay check. It should be up to the individual to advocate for better compensation and if they cannot reasonably show that they are worth an increased investment than move on. No one is going to get stuck working for third world country wages and honesty if they do that's on them for either undervaluing themselves or being to incompetent to know any better.


I agree but to the point of still having to pay a minimum wage. If you are having to pay $15/hr then the employee damn well better be worth it. If someone applies for a dishwasher they better be trainable and have the attitude to move up to do prep or better, not just barely show up and wash dishes until some other job comes along.

So this comes down to how you hire also. If they are not worth $15/hr either don't hire them or get rid of them. Hopefully this should raise the standard a bit in the industry by making the positions something that require some commitment and brains. There are too many restaurants that only want warm bodies and are only willing to pay for such. That has to stop. This isn't fast food.


----------



## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Minimum wage must go up - my 14 yr. old granddaughter washes dished at a higher end cafe down the road and is making $12.50/hr. I told her to watch what others are doing, listen to the lingo and if you need help with knife skills I will teach you.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> If someone applies for a dishwasher they better be trainable and have the attitude to move up to do prep or better, not just barely show up and wash dishes until some other job comes along.


I agree, unfortunately this is pretty much the labor pool we have here currently. It is a constant battle to get people to just come in to their shifts and do the bare minimum.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> I agree, unfortunately this is pretty much the labor pool we have here currently. It is a constant battle to get people to just come in to their shifts and do the bare minimum.


It's not just our industry. Any business will tell you how hard it is to find good employees. Young people today don't want to work.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

halb said:


> Young people today don't want to work.


Then how come I am the only old person that I work with?


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Ok, young _American_ kids don't want to work.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

halb said:


> Ok, young _American_ kids don't want to work.


I work in America and everyone I work with is an American.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Hell, some days I don't want to work! But I still need the paycheck so I do.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

phaedrus said:


> Hell, some days I don't want to work! But I still need the paycheck so I do.


Yeah, my retirement plan is the lottery and so far it ain't paying out any dividends! :~)


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> It's not just our industry. Any business will tell you how hard it is to find good employees. Young people today don't want to work.





cheflayne said:


> Then how come I am the only old person that I work with?


I think what halb is trying to say is that the experience may be that "younger" workers may take jobs and actually show up from time to time but that industrious work ethic is not there. Simply they are just warm bodies that can't do more than the bare minimum.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Seoul Food said:


> I think what halb is trying to say is that the experience may be that "younger" workers may take jobs and actually show up from time to time but that industrious work ethic is not there. Simply they are just warm bodies that can't do more than the bare minimum.


Opinions always come down to individual perception. The way we perceive things then plays a big hand in creating our "reality" and environment. People live what they learn.

If I work for a boss who has an opinion that young, or old, or culinary school grads, or whatever (fill in the blank) people are just warm bodies that can't do more than the bare minimum, and if I fall into one of the boss's perceived categories, than that will play a hand in creating my reality and increases the odds that I will live down to his expectations.

If I work for a boss who has an opinion that young, or old, or culinary school grads, or whatever (fill in the blank) people are great assets and he is glad to have them on the team, and if I fall into one of the boss's perceived categories, than that will play a hand in creating my reality and increases the odds that I will live up to his expectations.

At any rate, this is my perception and _I'm sticking to it! _:~)


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> I think what halb is trying to say is that the experience may be that "younger" workers may take jobs and actually show up from time to time but that industrious work ethic is not there. Simply they are just warm bodies that can't do more than the bare minimum.


If they will actually take a job they perceive as menial to begin with. For many it's because their "backs are against the wall", that hedge fund manager dream didn't materialize and they have to do something to make some money or they will have to live on the street. Doesn't make them bad people, they are just a product of a bad educational system, society and upbringing. They can't help it.



cheflayne said:


> If I work for a boss who has an opinion that young, or old, or culinary school grads, or whatever (fill in the blank) people are just warm bodies that can't do more than the bare minimum, and if I fall into one of the boss's perceived categories, than that will play a hand in creating my reality and increases the odds that I will live down to his expectations.
> 
> If I work for a boss who has an opinion that young, or old, or culinary school grads, or whatever (fill in the blank) people are great assets and he is glad to have them on the team, and if I fall into one of the boss's perceived categories, than that will play a hand in creating my reality and increases the odds that I will live up to his expectations.


Honestly, my preconceived opinions don't matter to me. If I see a kid willing to learn and work (and I know that they are out there) I have nothing but praise and admiration for them.


----------

