# Looking for a good "first" knife.



## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

As the topic title says, I'm currently looking for my "first" main knife. I already own a knife set, though the set (a chef's knife, a boning knife, and a paring knife) came from culinary school so I don't really count them. The chef's knife is an 8" one from Tramontina's Century Line. It's a good knife in my opinion but after working with it for over a year, schooling plus my current internship, I've managed to put together what I want/expect from a knife. I'm hoping to get some input as to which brands and/or models to look into to narrow my search to replace my current knife as my primary one while at work.

My two main concerns are thus.

First, I'm looking for a Santoku. I'm not that tall so keeping the tip of the knife on the chopping board while I slice vegetables and such is cumbersome at best. But with the curved edge of a chef's knife, the way I cut often leaves a small portion uncut, especially when I'm working quickly due to having a lot to do to prepare for the day or an event, meaning I end up wasting time going back to cut that small part when, and if, I notice my mistake. I've already tried my coworker's santoku so I know that the straighter edge works better for me.

Second is the handle. I've noticed when I hold the knife in a pinch grip that there's quite a lot of space between the handle and the palm of my hand. While a pinch grip does help me handle the knife better, the gap between my palm and the handle sometimes causes the knife to move around unnecessarily, usually when I've used the knife a lot that day and using the honing steel to realign the edge is no longer enough. I'm not sure how big an issue this really is but I just wanted to throw this in to see if there's a knife that addresses this issue. If not, then I'm open to any suggestions with regards to this. Maybe even taping padding to the handle to fill the gap? 

Also, my friend sent me a picture of his knife. It was a Shun knife designed by Ken Onion. Leaving aside the Shun brand for now, I'm honestly not sure what to think about this one. The curved handle looks like it could solve my issue but at the same time just the look alone leaves me doubtful for some reason. Since none of the shops near me, or in nearby cities, carry this particular design, and my friend lives in another country, I have no way to actually trying to see if the knife will feel comfortable in my hands. And though my friend swears it works for him, I'd rather not spend $200+ on a knife I've never even tried to hold.

Other, somewhat minor details are the following. High carbon stainless steel, 7 inch blade (I feel that the 8 inch one I have now is just a hint too long), full tang, a full bolster (the half bolster knives' balance feels awkward to me), and a granton edge. Also, I've heard a bit about hollow edged knives. Is it true that while it does cut smoother by design, is the edge really more brittle than it's regular counterpart even if it was under the same brand/maker? As for price, I'd prefer one roughly around $150 but if the knife is worth its price I wouldn't mind paying more.

Probably a lot to ask but since it's going to be my primary knife at work once I get it, I want one that's worth the money spent in every possible way, realistically speaking of course. 

So, any suggestions?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

My first comment is you don't need to keep your knife tip down. The shorter your knife is the higher an angle you have to raise your elbow and shoulder. With a 7" knife, you'll get fatigued in no time...

This is how to cut with sharp knives:






push, pull, sometimes up and down chop. You only raise the knife as high as the product, and you don't need to move your elbow or shoulder at all. If you learn to use this technique instead of rock chopping, a whole different world of knives opens up.

BTW there are other flat knives that are longer than santoku and have a tip. Stay away from german profiles and look at more french or japanese.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

That's one school of thought (the formerly linked video), but even in the European style of knife handling you shouldn't be having as much trouble as you describe.  As a slight aside: There are two really annoying things that folks do: scrape the board with their blade and (not seen in this video but unfortunately too common elsewhere) continually tap the board with the blade in either a "wind up" or to provide some sort of culinary punctuation.

Millions is right about the knife length.  I'd only add that it sounds to me as if you also need to further hone your knife skills.  Being short isn't easy (as I can attest) given the standard counter height. I find using a thin cutting board much better than a thick board.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

BrianShaw said:


> continually tap the board with the blade in either a "wind up"


You mean chopping imaginary product before they slide into the real product? That one annoys me too.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Huh. I knew my knife skills were my weakest point but I didn't think it was this bad that I start thinking the knife was the problem. I'll definitely have to try this out before anything else so I don't end up wasting money on a new knife I probably won't need if this goes well.

Still, I've never seen anyone cut by pulling or pushing the knife in that exact manner before, neither at work nor at school, so it's something to at least consider.

But doesn't chopping up and down wear out the edge faster? At least I remember someone telling me that at some point.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

LeiCiel said:


> Huh. I knew my knife skills were my weakest point but I didn't think it was this bad that I start thinking the knife was the problem. I'll definitely have to try this out before anything else so I don't end up wasting money on a new knife I probably won't need if this goes well.
> 
> Still, I've never seen anyone cut by pulling or pushing the knife in that exact manner before, neither at work nor at school, so it's something to at least consider.
> 
> But doesn't chopping up and down wear out the edge faster? At least I remember someone telling me that at some point.


You were probably trained "in the European style". Many folks on these forums eschew the European style and German-form knives in lieu of the Japanese style. (And some eschew certain "commercialized" Japanese knives almost as a matter of dogma or sport despite some rather questionable sources of data/information.)

Which is best you might ask - depends. It's up to you and what works best.

The theories on what wears out a knife more/faster seem to go both ways due to a diversity of opinion and the amount of micro-analysis conducted. All I know is that frequent and/or improper sharpening will wear out a knife a lot more than friction/pressure on a cutting board. But if one leads to the other...


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I'm not advocating one way or the other. You asked about flatter profile knives, which are meant for push cutting, not rocking. All I want to highlight is that your work will be easier if your techniques and tools match. If you want to continue rock chopping, get something with more belly like a wusthof.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The guy in the video wasn't controlling his force all that well at times.  Sure chopping may wear things faster, but not that much faster if you control your force well.  Also, a really sharp knife will stick right into the board if you're using too much force, so you just learn to control it.

You can also use a very slight pull while chopping and not loose any real speed.  The slight pull can make a big difference in cutting force, and is especially noticeable in cutting things like tomatoes, and hard oinions also.

I was loathe at first to use my sharp knife for chopping but now bottom line I think - chopping is faster so you can afford to sharpen more often.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Periodically I teach kids how to cook.  About half of the course is sanitation and knife skills. I constantly preach what Rick says about controlling force and making knife move in two directions at the same time when cutting.


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## gladius (May 26, 2015)

LeiCiel, the classic German rocking motion with the tip perpetually on the board is just one of several approaches to chopping. Different techniques work better for different cooks, knives, and food items. Here's a bit of an overview of the various chopping techniques. I don't have the most experienced knife skills myself, so use this more as a starting point than a tutorial.

Virtually all chopping techniques are a combination of one or more of the following three motions: down, forward, and rock. By "rock" I mean moving the knife in the circular direction defined by the tip lifting up and the heel going down. Think of these three motions as being akin to mother sauces. Not all are used on their own. Here are the main chopping techniques derived from those motions:

1. Classic German - Just uses the rocking motion. Commonly seen with German profile knives since they have a lot of belly. Keeping the tip of the knife on the board, you lower the handle, causing the blade to guillotine the food between the edge and the board.

2. Classic French - Uses a combination of down, rock, and forward. Commonly seen with French/Japanese profile chef's knives but also with santoku. Former CT contributor BDL, who calls this "guillotine and glide", details it here: http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=405

3. Forward glide - A combination of forward and down. The part of the edge that will make the cut starts and stays parallel to the board. Commonly seen with thin Chinese "cleavers" but also with santoku and French profile chef's knives. MillionsKnives refers to this as a "push cut" above. That term isn't universal (nor is any chopping terminology) and the aforementioned BDL, among others, uses "push cut" to refer to #4. (Those who refer to this forward action as a "push cut" often call the slicing action in which you draw the tip of the knife towards you a "pull cut". Note that I'm not including that technique on this list since slicing often serves a different purpose from chopping and isn't interchangeable with the chopping techniques listed here, although it's sometimes usable and useful in place of chopping, such as with tomatoes when your knife has a toothy edge.)

4. Straight up and down - Called a "push cut" by some, this requires a *very* sharp edge with a high degree of polish. It's typically seen with a santoku, a gyuto, or a sujihiki that's being used as a main knife.

#2 is easy to do quietly. #4 is loud. #2 and #3 probably do less wear to your knife than #1. I don't know about #4.

This probably goes without saying, but these are just four labeled categories--Platonic ideals if you will. Not all cooks always use a technique that falls squarely into one of these four buckets. One might do an almost straight down chop but with a tiny move forward. One might start with the tip lower than the heel and do a mostly straight down chop with a small guillotine/rocking action. Different food items often work better with slightly different techniques. The important thing is to do what's comfortable given your knife and the food you're cutting.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Well, I just spent a few hours cutting vegetables for lunch, and probably again for dinner later, by both pulling and pushing. It felt alright, not awkward but just different. It's to be expected since I've used the same cutting motions for a few years now so I'll probably keep using them for a few more days before I decide to change how I work. I've never been a user of the rock chop, could never manage it properly actually, so I've always lifted up the whole knife. The motions were like the rock chop, only without the tip staying on the chopping board. But regardless, I'll probably switch to a knife with a straighter edge like I intended. So any recommendations in that departments?


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## gladius (May 26, 2015)

It sounds like your previous technique was something in the neighborhood of #2 in my above post, but perhaps without the push forward in the second half. If I'm reading your original post right, it sounds like you have the accordion issue where some cuts don't go fully through the food. That push forward on the tail end of the rock should prevent that. I highly recommend reading that blog entry I linked to and trying it out with your knife. If you like it, we can confidently narrow your knife choices to French profile chef's knives or Japanese gyutos. They are much flatter than your Tramontina but still have enough belly to perform the rock/guillotine action easily. They also work just about as well as santoku for straight down push cutting. If you're not sure how you feel about that French technique, French profile chef's knives/gyutos are still good for straight down and forward-and-down chopping techniques. They're very versatile.

If you find after trying that French technique that you definitely prefer keeping the knife parallel to the board without much or any rock, then we should talk about santoku and Chinese "cleaver" [1] options. Unless you intend to keep your santoku insanely polished (sharper than I keep my laser gyuto) and touch it up all the time, you probably won't be doing a literal straight down chop. You'll probably use some form of rock or forward motion as in #3 above or maybe the slight backward chop that I now see Rick Alan mentioned above. If you're not doing a straight down cut off of a scary sharp toothless edge, you'll probably find that the extra distance from spine to edge on a Chinese cleaver gives you better leverage than a santoku and an easier time gauging thickness for consistent cuts. For what it's worth, in another thread MillionKnives made it sound like he's becoming a cleaver convert.

I look forward to hearing your report if you give the "guillotine and glide" technique a try!

[1] I put "cleaver" in quotes because I'm not talking about a thick meat cleaver but rather the cleaver-shaped Chinese equivalent of a chef's knife. The ones you might be interested in come in roughly two size ranges: (i) very thin and light with a blade length of around 180-215mm and (ii) pretty thin but heavier with a blade length of around 215-230mm. The CCK 1303 is probably the canonical example of the former, and the CCK 1103 is an example of the latter. The Chinese cleaver is called "chukabocho" in Japanese, and there are some very high end Japanese versions, especially in that larger size.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I worked a bbq catering event this past weekend. I brought a whole bag of knives and I used only 4 (had some backups and loaners)

Cck 1303 and itinomonn 240 kasumi did all the veg for 40 lbs of coleslaw and for stuff for the baked beans. If the cck was longer I would have used it for cabbage too. Cabbages, carrot, bell pepper, onions, jalapenos. 

Itinomonn wa butcher trimmed 60 racks of ribs. Im real impressed how well it held up. Victorinox boning would have needed more and more steelimg with diminishing returns. Also chopped the ribs after.

Kochi 270 suji sliced briskets. Had trouble with the bark on some, but also they were overcooked and falling apart, cooked to 220 internal temp oh boy... extra thick slices

While other people were doing dessert and tending smokers, I did most of the knife work. I had help, but he cut his thumb bad early on.

Anyway yeah I like cleavers


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Gladius said:


> It sounds like your previous technique was something in the neighborhood of #2 in my above post, but perhaps without the push forward in the second half. If I'm reading your original post right, it sounds like you have the accordion issue where some cuts don't go fully through the food. That push forward on the tail end of the rock should prevent that.


That's pretty much on the spot with regards to my technique. Once the edge near the bolster hits the chopping board I tend to lift the knife up and move on to the next stroke. I saw the post earlier so I tried adding that extra push at the end while prepping dinner earlier instead of trying the push cut and pull cut again. Again it felt different since I'm not used to it but I was able to cut up everything I needed at close to full speed without leaving anything improperly cut. Needless to say that solves that part of my problem.

As for a knife, I'm not really fond of the simple up down cutting motion, I really don't like the thought of what that would do to the knife's edge over time. Even if I control how much force I put into it to minimize the impact with the cutting board, eventually I'd need to speed up on busier days so I can't afford to baby the knife just because I worry about the edge.

So between the French chef knife, the gyuto, the santoku, and the Chinese cleaver, how would you guys rate them? The first two seem to be very similar in shape and blade width so are there anything significant differences between then? I haven't used a santoku for a proper length of time, just enough to know that I prefer the straighter edge, so between this and a gyuto/French chef knife, does the width of the blade make much of a difference? As for the Chinese cleaver, how does the extra length from spine to edge add more leverage and help judge the width of a cut?

Sorry to throw in all these question. I'm just the kind of guy who needs to understand the reason behind something otherwise I can't sleep .

And honestly, I've always been curious about using a cleaver as a main knife instead of a chef's knife. My uncle actually only owns two knives. A paring knife, and a cleaver. Asides from things that only the paring knife could do properly, he uses the cleaver for everything. From chopping, to filleting, and even de-boning a whole chicken. So yeah, I've been halfway to being a cleaver convert, even if it isn't a Chinese cleaver, ever since I was a teen.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Not much difference from french to gyuto technique. The differences are weight, hardness, and maintenance (no honing steel for gyutos, xcept ceramic maybe...not for me). Here is what got me trying cleavers:http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ourse-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-postI would add they are real efficient. I never lift the cleaver higher than necessary for any cut. The flat front end doubles as spatula to lift up what you've chopped. You can crush garlic and ginger in one motion. Watch some martin yan videos on that one. And finally, I think it has great control on horizontal cuts that you dont see on the other knives. Love it or not, its something you have to try to know. The cutting performance will be better thsn anything you've used. Whether it's your style or not is a different question. You could always find a buyer for cck I think.If I had to do it again, id get the full sized cck kf1301 from chefsmall over small cleaver 1303


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

No honing steel for the gyuto? How come?

How are cck knives in terms of edge retention considering these are carbon steel knives rather than the more common carbon stainless steel seen elsewhere? I mean, will it go through a full day of use cutting meats, fruits and vegetables without needing to be honed or sharpened countless times throughout the day, provided it's properly used and taken care of during the day?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Why shouldn't you use honing steels on gyutos? Why use a honing steel at all? The honing steel applies pressure from the side. On softer steel, it realigns the edge. On a harder steel, it could chip your edge. Harder steels don't bend like softer ones do. They'll either stay straight or they'll chip. So a honing steel 1) does nothing for you 2) risks damage
All steels are alloy of carbon and iron. "Stainless steel" alloys have some other metals to make it non reactive. "Carbon steel" is a general term for non stainless because idk guessing . Typically carbon steels keep their edge better than stainless and are easier to sharpen. When we throw these terms around, it's not scientific, it's just industry standard jargon.
Since the CCK cleaver is so thin, it has a lot of apparent sharpness. Even if the edge degrades somewhat, it will still cut stuff. It lasted me all day, no stropping, no honing, no touchups on stones. I bet it would last another day. A quick touchup on finishing stones (this is my preference for maintenance between full on sharpening) brings it back to screaming sharp. As far as reactivity, it is one of the less reactive carbon steels. I cut onions no problem, no discoloration. I haven't even built up a patina yet. I'm not saying to go cut lemons with it and leave it all day, but in normal usage cutting onions, I had no problems. I cut a lot of onions and shallot...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

It is only recently that I've been doing lots of board contact with my main knife, and the results are  bit of a revelation here in terms of fatigued steel.  I wound up have to remove a considerable amount more than usual from the edge before experiencing a burr that was reasonable to deal with.

I recall Benuser saying he had to remove a couple millimeters from the edge of a knife that had seen heavy steeling in order to fix the same problem.

My mud-binders don't take to dry-stropping at all, I really should stop procrastinating now and put together some diamond loaded strops.  I've been meaning to do it for a while now in order to get a more refined edge.

Rick


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

So rather than using a honing steel repeatedly during the day, a quick touch up on a finishing stone at the end of the day would be better then? Am I understanding this right?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

More or less!  BUT How often you need to touch up will vary.   Since you're using this knife all day, you will know when it needs a touch up.  I guess at that point your options are something like 1) ride it out until you have downtime 2) pull out your backup knife 3) ceramic honing rod

If we're talking carbon steel and a splash and go stone, touch up is only a few strokes on each side.  Altogether less than a minute.  Stainless is a little more abrasion resistent, but still not too much time.

For real sharpening, going down to coarser stones, raising burr, deburr, etc., up the progression of grits, this varies too.  Some people do it weekly, others can go a month or more.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

I guess for now I'll move on to either a French chef knife or a gyuto. While interesting, and definitely something I'll need to try in the future, I'm not familiar enough with the feel of a cleaver and since we have a ton of weddings, concerts, and other events scheduled for the next two months at least, I'd rather stick to something I'm more familiar with in the meantime. So any recommendations in the way of a gyuto or a French chef knife?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Price range?   Carbon or stainless?  Handle style preference western or wa handle? Length? Where are you located? Left or right handed?


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Around $150 at most, I'm not really looking for a big name knife as opposed to one that lasts long, edgewise and in general. But if it's worth it I may go higher.

Carbon since I cut tons of fruits, vegetables and meats at least four days a week so I need the edge to last long and easily maintained during the day if need be. Unless you know a high carbon stainless steel knife that suits my needs. 

Either handle works for me.

Length eight or nine inches. The knife of course.

Utah.

Right handed.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I find it helpful with carbon steel to order the prep list least acidic to more acidic. So meats first, then normal vegetables carrots potatoes, not very acidic fruits, onions near the end (pyruvic acid), then citrus. By the time you get past meat you should have a good patina going. And yeah for onions and citrus you need to wipe more.

You can keep a wet and dry towel around like this:






First, for $30 you can pick up a vintage forgecraft off ebay. You will need to spend a few hours thinning it on a coarse stone to make it cut acceptably. I've restored three of these myself for gifts. I like this better than vintage sabatiers because the steel is a bit harder. It's a bit of a project, but you end up with a very comfortable knife that can be used for hours, for not much money.

Now, closer to your budget, this one is $135. I have bought a lot of knives under $150 for myself or for gifts and you can get some duds in this price range. I've got bent knives, wavy grinds, lots of problems. Buying from a good vendor will save you the headache of return shipping. This is not a flashy knife, it's the house brand, made by yoshihiro with some extra specs by Jon. Good quality control, good grind, easy to sharpen white steel. Free shipping in the US.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...in-uraku-240mm-white-2-kurouchi-wa-gyuto.html

I really like the Itinomonn from japanese natural stones a lot, but it's over your price range and also out of stock.

In your price range some stainless worth looking at are:

Gonbei hammered damascus

Gesshin Uraku stainless

From JCK, the AUS-10 hiromoto


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## gladius (May 26, 2015)

I'd second the suggestion for the Gesshin Uraku or perhaps the newer yo-handled Gesshin Stainless (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin/gesshin-specials/gesshin-240mm-stainless-gyuto.html). Both should have significantly better edge retention than you're used to, and unlike French carbons, that means actual edge retention rather than "lasts a month between sharpening as long as you're willing to steel the edge the five or so times a day that it goes out of true."

As MillionsKnives said, you might also want to look at the recently popular Hiromoto AUS-10 gyuto on JCK. The profile looks almost as flat as the Hiromoto santoku, so I'm not sure how suitable you'll find it for that French chopping action, but it's only 110 USD for the 240mm and it's made from an interesting stainless alloy. It might be worth looking into. Benuser could tell you more about its edge properties. There's also JCK's CarboNext for $128, which is made from a semi-stainless alloy that should feel very similar to carbon on the stones. A lot of people like it, but do note that it has a reputation for inconsistent grind and terrible OOTB sharpness. The latter might not be a concern for you (or it might), and inconsistent grind is pretty common on <$150 knives, but JKI's Gesshin knives mentioned above are known for excellent grind and F&F for the price point.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Is it weird for me to prefer to buy the Hiromoto one partly because he's retiring and I want one of his last knives? It's not a bad knife by any means but I'm certainly leaning towards it partly because it's one of the last.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Not weird. Also this is a stainless clad (best of both worlds really) aogami super on buy/sell/trade forum:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23374-Hiromoto-AS-240-Gyuto

Those stopped production almost a year ago.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

That's as good of a reason as any!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Correction: Yoshihiro is just a brand made by a variety of craftsmen.  Jon says that Gesshin Uraku is ordered through and made directly by the craftsmen.  Yoshihiro is not involved at all.


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## chef sherry v (May 3, 2015)

My "first" chef's knife was a 7" MAC knife. Eleven years and many makes and styles of knives later, the MAC is still my go-to knife (I also have a 5" version). Don't remember what I paid for it though.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Ok, so I got together with some friends to check out the recommended knives, and then some, and one of them explains a bit more about the Japanese metals and what they mean by yellow #3, white #1, etc... I just wanted a second opinion since I'm close to choosing a new knife. Is it really as straightforward as saying:

- White #1 (most carbon, usually considered the best white steel, most expensive white steel, sharpens extremely well, most brittle of the whites)
- White #2 (a bit less carbon than white #1, still sharpens well, still a good steel)
- White #3 (a bit less carbon than white #2, still pretty decent, resists chipping best among whites)

- Blue super steel (high carbon, high wear resistance and great edge retention in exchange for being more brittle, harder to sharpen than white steels and won't take as keen an edge)
- Blue #1 
- Blue #2 (least corrosion resistance, least edge retention, easiest to sharpen of the blue steels, greatest toughness of the blues)

This is pretty much how my friend explained it to me earlier. Not that I'm doubting my friend but I'm certain it isn't as straightforward as he makes it out to be. I'm no expert on metals and knife making, I barely even know my way around it, but I'm fairly sure some of the details above may or may not be correct depending on how the metal was treated during the actual making of the knife, or even how the knife is treated by the owner in terms of usage, maintenance, sharpening, etc...

So I just wanted a second opinion so I can clear this up before making my final decision. Thanks again in advance for all your help guys (and girls)


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't know about the corrosion bit, but yeh, I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

I've been fascinated for quite a while with the CPM super alloys but I got to say though that I wonder if the ideal setup at this time might be a White steel #1 knife accompanied by a strop loaded with 0.5-1 micron diamond for touchup.

Rick


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

I see. So in a kitchen where I'll be spending hours and hours cutting fruits, vegetables, and meats, which would you guys say is better? White's sharp, keen edge and ease of sharpening to contrast it's relatively short lived edge, or blue's edge retention despite being relatively harder to sharpen and not having a keen an edge as the white?

I probably already know the answer but I just wanna hear other opinions to see if it matches up and all that.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

For a double bevel, it doesn't matter as much to me as on a yanagiba. Other than tomato skin, nothing you're cutting with it requires crazy sharpness. Geometry and thinness will be the difference in performance you're looking for. 

As far as carbon steels, I like V2 a lot. Sharpens easy like white but less reactive and better edge holding.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

By geometry do you mean the angle of the edge?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

In terms of perceived sharpness [and food stiction also] the cross section profile is what to look at, the section of the blade seen perpendicular to the face if you cut the blade up in sections from edge to spine.

The edge profile shows what is actually contacting the board, also in consideration of what/how much is contacting as you raise and lower the blade as it remains in contact with the board.

Geometry includes both these considerations.

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Yeah more than the edge. You, the end user, can sharpen the edge at any angle you like easily. Im talking about the first 1cm or so above the edge. Is it flat? Convexed? Thin? Fat? The rest of the blade matters too, but that area behind the edge is real important, and takes more work to change.


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

So when they say to 'thin' the blade when i sharpen, does that mean i have to shave off some of the metal along the rest of the knife? Or is it just the area immediately behind the edge?

Also, what does it mean when they say 40/60 or 30/70 bevel?


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh wow. I learned more about knives these past few days than I thought it would when I first asked for advice. So how do you get the edge off center? Do I just shave off more metal on one side? And if I'm right handed, do I shave off more from the right side of the blade, the side away from my body, or the left, the side closer to me?


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

LeiCiel said:


> Oh wow. I learned more about knives these past few days than I thought it would when I first asked for advice. So how do you get the edge off center? Do I just shave off more metal on one side? And if I'm right handed, do I shave off more from the right side of the blade, the side away from my body, or the left, the side closer to me?


As for asymmetry, it seems that this is a rather confusing issue for many. Part of the confusion stems from the fact that many of the ways that we describe these asymmetries are gross oversimplifications. For example the ratios like 50/50 or 60/40 don't really describe anything of substance. Is it the ratio of the percentage of sharpening on each side? Is it a ratio of the angles on each side? In reality it's neither. No craftsman in Japan it's there and measures angles or ratios. What really matters is the way that the knife cuts. The asymmetry deals with two main issues-thinness behind the edge and steering. The more asymmetrical a knife is, assuming the angles are equal, the thinner the knife is behind the edge. However, the more asymmetrical the knife is, the more likely it is to steer. It's also important to keep in mind that the angles are not always equal. When figuring out asymmetry for any given knife, the first thing that you want to do is cut with the knife. When you cut with a knife, you want to assess whether it is steering to the right or to the left, and how easily it moves through the food. If you notice that your knife is steering to one direction or the other, you want to create more surface area on the side that it is steering towards, so that the knife cuts straight. This can be done by adjusting the angle (either more or less acute) and/or adjusting the amount of time spent sharpening on each side. If you notice that the knife is wedging in food as it goes through, this may mean that you need to sharpen at a more acute angle, or that you need to thin behind the edge. Some of this can also be dealt with through adjusting asymmetry, as previously mentioned. Does that make sense?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Duh ... never mind. My post is a perfect example of the idea that you should read the original post before commenting.

It would be nice if we could delete own posts.

*Sorry.*​


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

I picked up one of those Hiromoto knives and it was very sharp out of the box. I'm new to this so just ordered a combo 400/1200 stone (got a #5000 for fathers day). I've been really pleased with the knife and have been chopping stuff for a week. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

From the other thread, the AUS-10 currently up on JCK


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

As Million said Hiromoto AUS-10 Stainless Steel Gyuto 240mm.  It was $110 with $7 shipping.  I got two and sent one to my daughter in PA for her birthday.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

This is great news Ben as I've nothing to compare it to besides my Shun santoku and that old Henkels set which I have to steel constantly. I've been cutting mostly veggies with mine, had a blast with a tomato yesterday on my 1' butcher block board. So fast and sharp I didn't even notice the tiny amount of skin I removed off a knuckle until I was done./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif I'm now waiting on my 400/1200 stone but don't think I'll need to use that anytime soon.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks Benuser, I didn't realize the edge won't hold. I just ordered the 400/1200 and have a #5000. This is what Koki said:


> Your Hiromoto Gyuto has Double bevel edge 60/40 to 70/30.
> 
> For sharpening face side of blade edge (right side of blade edge), we recommend the sharpening angle approximate 10 to 12'.
> 
> ...


So perhaps he's already set the edge for me properly? In any case, I've got the stones coming but will practice on some of my older knives first.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I don't think he sharpens at all past what mr nagao at hiromoto did already.  The reason is if he sharpens, then he might scratch and customers will complain.  Not worth it.  It's just general advice.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

All makes sense guys, thanks for the additional info.  All I know is the thing is damn sharp and cuts great.  My eyes aren't what they used to be so without a magnifying glass, I'm not going to be able to tell anything about the edges.  As soon as my new stone gets here I'll get to work.  Now I just have to get a visual on what's 12 degrees vs 15.  I've read through a bunch of threads (don't believe in wasting time asking the a questions that's already been answered 100) and think I have a few clues.  I'll probably just cut some wood to use as a visual guide for the angles.  Now I just have to figure out how to avoid splashing water all over the place.


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## gladius (May 26, 2015)

Benuser, what's the purpose of sharpening with asymmetric angles instead of asymmetric percentage at the same angle? Does it conform more to the Hiromoto's factory edge?


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Hey Benuser, can I send you my knife to sharpen?  It sounds so complicated.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

Well, I'm going to run right home and try it. LOL  No, actually, have to wait for the new stone.  But I can practice on my German steel to get a feel for it.  Thank you once again Benuser.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Don't get discouraged if it takes awhile on a german knife.  The angle is more obtuse, so if you go at the angles mentioned here, you'll basically be thinning for a while.  Also the stainless steel used there is more abrasion resistant, there is more metal remove on thicker knives.  Overall it will just take longer.

Probably you want to sharpen that one at wider angles.  Before you sharpen each knife, you should stop and think, don't just grind away


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

Huh, I didn't expect this when I got back. But hey, this certainly works out in my favor.

First of, my new knife is on its way. Funnily enough, it's also the Hiromoto AUS10 240mm Gyuto. I decided to stick with a stainless steel blade for now but I did buy a cheap $7 carbon knife, which I will be using at home and practicing with in terms of usage, maintenance, and sharpening before I go buy a more expensive one. 

Second, on the matter of my new knife not arriving with a workable edge, will I have to stick with the initial angles it comes with when I finish it off, or will it be alright to turn both sides into a 15 degree bevel?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

What $7 knife did you get?


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

It's an 8" chefs knife but it doesn't have a name anywhere on it. Just bought it at a yard sale in the neighborhood yesterday. I saw it and thought why not. It's a bit rusty but the owner said she never really used it for long before putting it away. Like I said though, it'll just be for home use so I can get used to using one before I go out and buy a more expensive one. Who knows, it might even replace the one I bring to work if I get it into good working condition.


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## yes chef (Jun 24, 2015)

wusthof you will not be dissapointed


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## Mireille (Jun 16, 2015)

yes chef said:


> wusthof you will not be dissapointed


For my new knife you mean? I've actually already bought a new knife, just waiting for it to arrive.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

What's even more complicated is properly USING your knife in a kitchen.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes, you can do both sides at 15deg.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I've had magnificent results with old no-name carbon knives like that. To the point that I almost regret the majority of my knife buys and enough to keep me from spending on "real" Japanese knives. If all you want to do is cut for cooking it maybe sufficient. For anything but home use the only potential problem may be wood handles.


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## ietinker (Jun 8, 2015)

So my apologies to LeiCiel for co-opting the thread, I did steer things a little off topic.  

My Henckels set gets regular runs through the Chef's Choice 3 stage and almost daily steel use (which I now know is bad LOL)  I've periodically used an oil stone so I think I have a little bit of a handle on the basics.  I also know these knives are equally beveled so I don't need to deal with the asymmetric geometry.  But it will be good to practice the technique on the waterstones on these knives which I think will be easier to learn on. 

You may not return to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

This is probably going to annoy more than a few people BUT .....

after many years I now mainly use ;

1. 1 * vic nox pastry knife... its super useful , even for pastry !

2. 1 * "nice" paring knife, about $60 is my limit ,,,,,,

3. 1 * "nice" filiting knife, again about $60 .... ( I take pride in my edge, not the badge)

4. A BOX OF KIWI BRAND mini cleavers. They are from Thailand,  cost about $AU4 each! Super light, laser sharp and never feels like i`m working the knife while i`m working with the knife. I can "sharpen" it on just about anything as its metal is so thin, and I DON'T CARE AT ALL IF SOME LAMER STARTS USING IT, I just grab a fresh one from the box if it gets ruined. I get mine from Chinese supermarkets here in AU. The down side is the handle is a bit short but if you add up all the physical discomfort of a long shift this really is not noticeable. Also, as I move around my kitchen sections ALOT I can just leave a knife at each section, never have to run back to my previous board to get my expensive hunk of steel before some lunk-head uses it to open a tin of olives (you know who you are!).

I`m known in the places I have worked for my fast and accurate knife work, something I`m proud of. After many years I realized it wasn't the knife, it was me that was doing the good work.

My wife on the other hand ONLY uses expensive Japanese knives she gets serviced once a year in Japan. I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this matter....


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