# Thickening Tomato Sauce



## french foodie

One of the things that I love to make is homemade tomato sauce. it tastes so much better than the stuff at the store, and it is just extremely satisfying. I run a couple of cans through a mill to remove the seeds and membranes, heat up the juices and pulp with the rest of the ingredients, bring it up to a simmer, and reduce it. My problem is that the sauce is still fairly runny. I have heard of using cornstarch for thickening some sauces. What are some effective ways that I can thicken the sauce?


----------



## andyg

tomato paste, yes it's not as fresh but it is a good way to thicken it


----------



## oldschool1982

You may not like the answer but you need to cook it longer. When O do my sauce with fresh tomatoes it simmers for close to 12 hours. Usually I make it the day or so before I need it. That way I don't have to do all the cooking in one day. Helps the flavor too. If you're going to go through all the trouble of preparing the tomatoes for cooking why throw in paste. 

Paste has it place. I use it but not with fresh tomatoes. 

You can also cut your tomatoes the day before you need them, place them in a china cap, collander or chinoise and drain them into a bowl over night. This will also remove a good deal of moisture.


----------



## phatch

A number of issues here

Canned Tomatoes
Canned tomatoes can be surprisingly good or plain awful. It sounds like you're using whole tomatoes, a good start. But what are they packed in? As a generalization, puree is better than juice which is better than water. Read your ingredients to find out what you've got. This is probably one of your problems with runniness. 

Also look at additives. There are usually two: Salt and Calcium Chloride. Salt offers some flavor and preservative effects. Calcium Chloride has a very salty flavor, is a firming agent as well. Purists avoid the calcium chloride. I have a sodium restricted diet so I actually use a brand with only tomatoes and calcium chloride which works well for me.

I do have to give props to Pomi brand tomatoes whose aseptic packages list but one ingredient: Tomatoes. I used Pomi exclusively when I lived in Germany and was very happy with the product. They're quite a bit more expensive here in Europe. 

Muir Glen is a respected quality brand of canned tomatoes in the US and can be had at reasonable prices on sale, but is otherwise expensive in my book. I stock up at sales.

THICKNESS

Thickening may not be what you want to do really. It depends on what you want to do with it.

The more you cook a tomato sauce, the less tomato impact it tends to have. There are times this is what you want such as a bolognese with a more blended meaty flavor.

But for pizza or marinara, a fresher tomato taste is generally desirable. 

Here are some ideas you may find useful.

Drain your tomatoes and reserve the liquid. Lightly crush the tomatoes and drain again adding that liquid to the reserved liquid. 

Mill your tomatoes as normal. You could add in the amount of liquid you want for the sauce so you have the fresh taste of a less cooked sauce. Or you might try reducing the liquid and blending that into the solids. I'm not sure where the flavor profile would end up though.

Phil


----------



## andyg

When I simmer a sauce that I know will take a long time to thicken, I do it in the oven at about 250 degrees. Then I don't have to stir it as often to keep it from scorching.


----------



## montelago

I'm with old school on this one. Even my Marinara sauce gets a good 6 hours of simmer before I finish it. Slurry in tomato sauce is a travesty of justice. The other possible issue is that your sauce is not homogenous. If you have a lot of chunky solids and separate water, a couple of pulses with an immersion blender helps. Just don't kill it or you will have ketchup. Also, when I finish my sauce I mount it with a good bit of extra virgin olive oil. This helps to emulsify the sauce and give it body. It also gives Marinara sauce much needed fatty richness.


----------



## luc_h

Hi French Foodie,

There is good advise here already.

Here are my observations:
Choose quality tomatoes.
as already stated, simmer, simmer then simmer longer.

Regular home cornstarch will not hold too long in an acidic environment like tomato sauce.

Add lemon juice, the added acid will help the natural pectin to firm up. (citric acid is better if you can find some).

If all else fails, add tomato paste.

Luc H.


----------



## french foodie

Thank you all for the information. Here's a bit more info on what I used for the sauce.

The tomatoes were canned in juice. I'm not sure about the additivies, but they didn't taste salty to begin with. I don't have any cans lying around currently either. When I made the sauce I sent the whole tomatoes through the mill, and then combined all the ingredients (pulp and jucie from tomatoes, and extra juice from the can) to the pot. It seems that my main problem may be the adding of the juice from the can. That would make sense for the runniness of the sauce.

The flavor profile on the sauce tastes good, it's just really runny (due to the extra juice?) I'm not trying to get the sauce extremely thick, but less watery than it currently is. I'm trying to stay on the cheaper side, due to a college budget, but I also love good food.

Phatch: Do you find the flavor of sauce made with fresh tomatoes leaps and bounds above canned tomatoes? If so, is it best to just wait until the summer, go to some farmer's markets and make a huge batch then? My only concern is that fresh tomatoes can be pretty costly.


----------



## shel

When I make sauce using canned tomatoes, I prefer the juice to the puree. I drain the liquid, hand crush the tomatoes, and simmer in a skillet or saute pan to allow for more rapid evaporation. After the sauce has drained, I add back some liquid and add a little red wine. I can make a nice thick sauce in about 1/2 - 45 minutes.

shel


----------



## caramelbaker

Well, I was just here looking at what other people did to thicken tomato sauce. Here's exactly what I did:

1. I picked about 2 handfuls of cherry-tomato (i'm not positive what kind of tomato it is) sized tomatoes, washed them, and cut off the stems. 

2. I cooked (not really carmalize) diced onions of half a medium-large onion with good amount of olive oil. (BTW, its cooking the whole time while you're preparing the next item to add. no need to wait to turn on the fire.)

3. add tomatoes and 3-5 tablespoons of bought tomato sauce. (I don't know about the results if you skit it. It was just around the house and I said, "why not?" and it is organic and everything. trader joes

4. add rosemary or any herb bunch tied by string (my younger sister hates flecks of herbs in her food)

5. I added a small handful of chopped (or minced) cilantro. (i prefer the flavor to parsley)

(BTW, its cooking the whole time while you're preparing the next item to add. no need to wait to turn on the fire.)

6. After cooking awhile (10 min about) add squeeze of lemon juice and pinch of flour.

7. cook for 20-30 more min.

DONE WITH THE DELICIOUS SAUCE!


----------



## mark in indiana

For thick sauces we use our own tomatoes. After processing we take the large 20qt pans and place them in the refrigerator overnight. This allows the pulp to separate from the water. Ladling off the pulp into another stainless pot we then begin the sauce. This makes a huge difference in thickness. No vast cooking times needed...saves energy. Cheap and Easy.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif.


----------



## mike9

I'm going against the grain here.  When I make tomato sauce for spaghetti I cook it 30 - 40 minutes.  I finish cooking my pasta in it and the sauce gets absorbed into the pasta.  I detest a blob of sauce on top of a pile of spaghetti.


----------



## chefedb

Either reduce liquid by cooking or add some tomato paste


----------



## cacioepepe

FrenchFoodie says nothing about fresh tomatoes, so I'm rolling with my opinion in regards to canned. Here's my process for a tomato sauce for the home.

Decent olive oil. A bit more than you might think.

_Slowly_ toast a garlic clove or two in the oil. Add your whole tomatoes (I like Muir Glen or Alta-Cocina) with juice and gently crush with your hands. Should be nicely smashed, but doesnt need to be perfect. Salt and pepper.

Cook on medium heat until the consistency you want. I personally dont like cooking low and slow because the sugars caramelize too much and I end up with a sweeter sauce. I prefer a more acidic tomato base so, for me, quicker is better. At the end I typically invert a small bunch of basil into the sauce and let it cool to room temp. Remove the basil and youre good to go. You can either smash up the garlic cloves with a fork or just remove them.


----------



## scubadoo97

Just keep simmering longer.   Xanthan gum will do a good job of thickening sauces but use a very small amount.  A little goes a long way.


----------



## ordo

A friend of mine, Italian, after many years cooking tomato sauce the classic way, is lately roasting the fresh tomatoes alla *Alton Brown*, with good success.


----------



## jaynesmith

Question:  I like the idea of putting the 20 quart pot in the fridge overnight.  Only question is when you remove the pulp is it the pulp to make the sauce or what is left in the pot?


----------



## mike9

JayneSmith said:


> Question: I like the idea of putting the 20 quart pot in the fridge overnight. Only question is when you remove the pulp is it the pulp to make the sauce or what is left in the pot?


I score and blanch my tomatoes before pealing and I like to get as many seeds out as I can at that point. I season them well and put them in the food proc to mince them down. I don't own a food mill at this time so I have to do it old school which means more manual labor. I mince my tomato through a strainer and push it with a spatula made for that purpose. Before this new appliance age we did things the old school way. . . by hand so don't be put off by what you don't have. IMPROVISE - In fact - it goes like: Adapt, improvise, overcome. - best of luck love.


----------



## siduri

I wonder how thick you want it.  Do you want it to mound up if you pick up a spoonful?  then i think you can't really make a decent sauce that thick without sacrificing flavor.  If your sauce is truly watery, strain the tomatoes from the can before adding.  If you cook with chunks of carrot, celery and onion until these are soft, you can run through a food mill or use an immersion blender and it will be thicker. 

I would never cook a sauce more than an hour.  Most of my sauces are cooked on high heat for a very short time.  If, however, i'm making a ragu, then it has to simmer slowly.  A marinara, it seems to me, needs to be as close as possible to fresh tomato consistency

I've never cooked pasta in the sauce, and i doubt i would like it (i imagine it would get a more "creamy" consistency, and that's not how i like my sauce) but you might try that if the sauce seems watery.  Or half-cook it and then finish cooking in the more watery sauce.


----------



## organicohio

AMAZING ANSWER!!  thanks you so much my friend.


----------



## culinarygirl

Arrow Root

Egg Yolks

Roux

Tomato Paste

Throw it in a crock pot and let it sit over night and reduce

if you are not planning on freezing it make a cornstarch slurry


----------



## cacioepepe

CulinaryGirl said:


> Arrow Root
> 
> Egg Yolks
> 
> Roux
> 
> Tomato Paste
> 
> Throw it in a crock pot and let it sit over night and reduce
> 
> if you are not planning on freezing it make a cornstarch slurry


You should take a screen shot of this and keep it so you can have a chuckle when you're 10 years in the industry.


----------



## Iceman

OK. After that, this is gonna sound really Bohemian. 

If I'm cooking from cans, which I have absolutely no problemmo doing, I take can by can in a very hot saute pan and reducing out the water from the juice. It actually takes only +/- 2-minutes per can, stirring the whole time. Really ... it's a lot quicker and easier than it sounds. Then dump it in a large pot to make the sauce. When you get halfway through, zap it with a boat-motor hand mixer until smooth and thick. Then I continue but I don't zap every can.


----------



## jbiringer3

If I'm out of time on the stove, and I have to tighten it up, I usually make an evoo rue. Stir in at or near boiling point until your sauce is where you want it.

I use #10 cans for the whole tomato and save the tops and bottoms. Put them on an outside grill, burn off the plastic.

Layer can tops underneath whatever long cooked sauce you're making. You'll never have to worry about burning the bottom again.




  








2013-09-25 21.32.58.jpg




__
jbiringer3


__
Sep 26, 2013








Jimbo


----------



## pinkiesbestpony

Perhaps you could use less of the juices, but keep them in a bowl so if the sauce starts to run a bit dry you could use them. It may also depend on how long you leave yours to simmer, mine takes at least an hour.


----------



## cerise

If you are using tinned/canned, I would go with San Marzano.  Turn the heat up high, then simmer.


----------



## rapidangardner

Luc_H said:


> Hi French Foodie,
> 
> Kudos to Luc_H! I grow my own tomatoes and can tomato sauce for my family. Not sure why, but this year for the first time, I've had trouble with thickening. Slow boil for over a day, and it seemed to be getting more runny. I checked with my canning friends and they were all stumped. That sent me Online to try to find a solution, and there it was: Lemon juice was just the ticket! It thickened noticeably within minutes. Amazing. Thank you for the tip. I've shared it already with others.
> 
> Here are my observations:
> 
> Choose quality tomatoes.
> 
> as already stated, simmer, simmer then simmer longer.
> 
> Regular home cornstarch will not hold too long in an acidic environment like tomato sauce.
> 
> Add lemon juice, the added acid will help the natural pectin to firm up. (citric acid is better if you can find some).
> 
> If all else fails, add tomato paste.
> 
> Luc H.


----------



## luc_h

Nice to see an old post is still serving its purpose i.e. to help, share and give insight.

Thanks!

Luc H.


----------



## rick alan

I've never really done a proper job of making TS, but I thicken sauces by stickling them in a slow cooker with a towel over the lid to eliminate condensation.  Adjust temp/insulation to maintain just a very slight bubbling.  Reduces things to half overnight.  I rather like the sound of Iceman's method for TS.

Rick


----------



## chefedb

Commercial already made sauces are thickened with all types of things. Home made as Old School says is all in the  cooking,  longer you cook the thicker it gets. Which is the real way. Adding all those additives and thickeners is great  for a school lunch program.


----------



## Iceman

chefedb said:


> Adding all those additives and thickeners is great for a school lunch program.


----------



## luc_h

chefedb said:


> Commercial already made sauces are thickened with all types of things. Home made as Old School says is all in the cooking, longer you cook the thicker it gets. Which is the real way.


Not all tomatoes (varieties) will respond to being cooked down to a sauce/paste as RapidanGardner has experienced first hand. Commercial sauces are usually made from commercial tomato hybrids which are selected for their end use i.e.sauce making, ketchup, salsa, etc... (often without requiring any additives to thicken or texture). Commercial sauces often have an advantage over homemade because of the tomatoes they use and, that works for them because that's what the consumer wants: no fuss. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to say homemade will always be superior to commercial but sweet overripe juicy freshly picked heirloom tomatoes may not cook down to a thick sauce like we would expect any tomatoes to do. That is why I recommended a natural (yet scientific way) to thicken a stubborn batch of tomatoes. I bet RapidGarner was stumped by the results he was getting because his crush tomatoes were drying up instead of thickening.

Luc H.


----------



## deltameta org

PASTE Tomatoes: Paste tomatoes like Roma or San Marzano etc [pear shaped] have low water content. Salad Tomatoes are big and round with lots of water. Commercial factories use paste tomatoes. They might have vacuum processing also [that's a guess]

2. I have a bunch of Chia seeds. In water they create a thick clear jello like substance. Plus they are really high in Omega 3 Oils.

[Chia from Costco]

So . . . how do you fix a broken tomato???

Use Tomato Paste ! 

Actually don't over water them all at once this causes cracks on top. I'm setting up a fertilizer solution feeder like the nursery uses. They fertilize every time they water. They measure in PPM [parts per million]. Pro fert. feeders are $500 +

My rig is based on Gilmore [or equal] spray hose end thing. {Variable % adjust] Never NEVER use a sprayer that has ever had weed killer. Parts per million of herbicide will NUKE your garden. Bug spray past use is sort of OK.

Put a valved Y valve in Recreation Vehicle/ food grade hose. [Regular hose has nasty chemicals. ] Left Hose continues to drip irrigation system. with pressure reducer Right Hose goes thru solution feeder. Gilmore has 3/8" brass tube output. Will find a small hose and clamp to attach. Then step up to garden hose or drip system hose. This feeds back in at lower pressure zone. Might put in a second hose valved "Y" to feed back in . [ Need a double female hose adapter} From plumbing / hardware store or Lowes./ Home Depot.

Will let you know when it works. This is in the early "Brain / Drain Storm idea stage.


----------



## spoiledbroth

oldschool1982 said:


> You may not like the answer but you need to cook it longer. When O do my sauce with fresh tomatoes it simmers for close to 12 hours.


This x1000. I have heard from many an Italian nona that tomato sauce MUST MUST MUST be simmered for at least 3 hours. Not only is that kind of cook time going to reduce your sauce down to something thicker, it'll also develop much more complex flavour than a recipe that calls for say, 40 minutes simmering. Another good technique is to sub out your sugar for grated carrot- this is actually an authentic Italian method of cutting the acidity in the sauce (or so I'm told by my friends from overseas) and does do a little to thicken your sauce. I would recommend against adding cornstarch, you're going to get much better flavour by just reducing the sauce down to desired thickness. You may need to adjust the amount of liquid you've got in your recipe to allow for a quicker reduction.


----------



## thymetobake

I believe that a longer cooking time would help to thicken the sauce, and improve the taste as well; I do not agree that refrigerating and separating the sauce really helps overall.


----------



## alexb

but when do you add the Lemon juice, and how much.

Thank you


----------



## alexb

chefedb said:


> Commercial already made sauces are thickened with all types of things. Home made as Old School says is all in the cooking, longer you cook the thicker it gets. Which is the real way. Adding all those additives and thickeners is great for a school lunch program.





Luc_H said:


> Not all tomatoes (varieties) will respond to being cooked down to a sauce/paste as RapidanGardner has experienced first hand. Commercial sauces are usually made from commercial tomato hybrids which are selected for their end use i.e.sauce making, ketchup, salsa, etc... (often without requiring any additives to thicken or texture). Commercial sauces often have an advantage over homemade because of the tomatoes they use and, that works for them because that's what the consumer wants: no fuss. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to say homemade will always be superior to commercial but sweet overripe juicy freshly picked heirloom tomatoes may not cook down to a thick sauce like we would expect any tomatoes to do. That is why I recommended a natural (yet scientific way) to thicken a stubborn batch of tomatoes. I bet RapidGarner was stumped by the results he was getting because his crush tomatoes were drying up instead of thickening.
> 
> Luc H.


Yes , this is interesting because , it depends on what kind of tomatoes you're using. Plum tomatoes or heirloom four example . I will be doing a Bolognese sauce with heirloom tomatoes. I will cook it for some hours and keep watch on how it develops I could add lemon juice to thicken because heirlooms are very runny .


----------



## luc_h

AlexB,

a little observations I have seen and some techniques: Pectin works better in an acidic environment with low heat (simmer) and the longer, the better.  If you know your tomatoes will not cook down to a thick sauce (because you tried it already), add your lemon juice in the beginning before cooking down.  Very ripe juicy end of season tomatoes tend to be sweeter rather than acidic. (afterall the tomato is a fruit).

My suggestion: add the juice of 1/2 a lemon per Kg of tomatoes (2lbs), cook down.  If the tomato mash looks fibrous and dry rather than saucy than add more lemon juice.  It should change rather quickly at that point.  If you cooked down too dry and added lemon juice but see no change (that has happen to me in the past) slowly add some water and it will thicken up.

Citric acid (main acid of lemon and limes) is often added to tomato products (i.e canned tomatoes and sauces) for this thickening reason. It also brightens the tomato flavour as well.

Cheers!


----------



## oldschool1982

Yes, not all types of tomatoes will work but the only one's I've ever run across when making sauce were cherry and grape. But it's not like you're using only those as the base. IMPO, at least you shouldn't be. However, I have thrown those in the mix when their loosing their quality.

I really haven't found any tomato that doesn't work yet for the most part, it's Beefsteak, Campari, Heirloom, when making sauce. As far as heirloom tomatoes are concerned, I wouldn't use the variegated or purple varieties, and I haven't run across very many red pears or more appropriately known as San Marzano variety. My Grand Mother had these in her garden but those seeds disappeared 45 years ago. and I haven't found any in a grocery store since I was a kid and we shopped at Tom Naples in Melrose Park IL.

I tend to cook the Roma's and Beefsteak tomato's longer than the Campari or Heirloom. For example, my original post mentioned 12 hours, that would be for the prior and maybe 30-40 minutes at the very most for the latter. There is definitely a fresher taste and lighter consistency and this has it's place. Sometimes it's nice to have fresh and light not a long simmer sauce.

Also, the pasta plays a larger role for the lighter sauce since it's cooked more al dente. This leaves a little extra starch from the pasta when you toss it on the stove top. You just end up a minute or two longer in the pan. Also, as you toss it between the fork and spoon on the plate while eating (and yes, I most always use that technique when eating long noodles and never break them before cooking), the pasta absorbs even more of the water and you're left with the nice fresh tomato coating the pasta while you're eating. It also leaves a nice bit on the plate for sopping with bread at the end.


----------



## spoiledbroth

^ Great point regarding the starch from pasta. Had not considered that. We have canned San Marzanos available here via a few local distributors, one of which actually imports directly from italy ($$$ but delicious)... For what its worth, I was always taught unless you are growing them yourself or have a good cheap source for tomatoes on the vine, canned tomatoes are almost as good flavour for less money. Unless you are really wild about the idea of making it with fresh tomatoes I would recommend finding some good quality canned product, shelf life can't be beat and they'll always taste quite fresh. Obviously not the same as fresh picked but I can think of many, in my mind, more appropriate uses for fresh tomatoes than to stew them for 3 hours on the stove top.


----------



## chefbuba

Old School....I have San Marzanos  growing in the greenhouse, they are just now starting to produce fruit. Hope to get enough to can. I got the seeds at my local garden center.


----------



## panini

I think there is 2 schools here. This is just me the old guido. When I want a true tomato flavor sauce I do it stovetop for a short time and add pasta. When I want to impart a meat flavor then I do it Nona style. Isn't the whole idea to cook the water out of the tomatoes. There is no thickeners. I think the most important part of the Nona style is to burp the pot to release the steam. Nona used to twist a mopine and wedge it in the pot top. If you just let that water/steam circulate inside the pot it will become acidic and then you start doing the devils work by throwing sugar in there/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


----------



## chefedb

Many commercial places use a brand called Red Pack  (So do I Home always consistent)


----------



## oldschool1982

@panini , great point!!!! If you're gonna start adding sugar, you might as well throw it down the drain and just buy some of the crappy jar sauces off the shelf.

Strictly talking about flavor.........

As far as why some feel the need to add sugar, the trouble starts with the choice of some canned tomatoes. They buy the cheap ones and those are loaded with unripe acidic tomatoes and water. I'm not suggesting buying the most expensive tomatoes available, I would just look for mid level brands and maybe a can or two of the really good ones to supplement.

Hunt's Angela Mia is a fair alternative. Red pack is a good choice too. I prefer 6 in 1 or 74-40 but can't find them in the area very easily. Point is, I tend to use a mix of ground with crushed and/or diced. As far as tomato sauce? Rarely, if ever. The other thing is, and this is just personal preference from both the Professional and home sides, don't add your fresh basil, if that's what you use, until the sauce is complete. Turn the heat off, chop it, add it and stir it. Copious amounts too. The flavor is much better and doesn't start to taste like 3 day old cut grass clumps smell.

For fresh tomatoes at the store, I look for the those that everyone have already picked over, the really ripe bright red somewhat soft type. Asking the dept workers if they have any overripe ones should not be out of the question. Just be aware for black spots, mold and fruit flies. You can eliminate those and you'll find these are bursting with flavor.

Firm and off red in color, sure buy them. But not for sauce. Throw those in the window to ripen more and use them on a sandwich. Also, if you wish to use fresh tomatoes and want a thick sauce really quick without cooking for lengthy periods, cut the tomatoes the night before, place them in a Colander lined with damp cheese cloth over a larger bowl, place that in the refrigerator and close the door. This will drain a ton of water out and then start to cook with those. There is flavor in the tomato water but you can add water back or reduce it then add it. I'm lucky enough to have a high quality chinois but if you don't,the colander with the cheese cloth works just as good. Heck, you really don't need to use the cheese cloth unless you are worried about seeds.

Hey, no matter what, this is all advice and it's definitely subjective. The discussion is as old as time and so is the variety of advice when it comes to sauce so..............

@chefbuba I wish I could say that! You lucky dog! If we can ever get the issues with rodents and wildlife controlled, I may be able to plant some San Marzano. Trouble is you need to leave them on the vine to ripen and the minute any tomatoes start to turn red, they become a target for just about everything with-in 4 blocks that fly's or crawls on four legs above or under the ground!


----------



## spoiledbroth

oldschool1982 said:


> @panini
> , great point!!!! If you're gonna start adding sugar, you might as well throw it down the drain and just buy some of the crappy jar sauces off the shelf.


... lol? really? I have family cookbooks from Italy that call for muscovado or molasses sugars. Funny.


----------



## panini

@SpoiledBroth,

Don't hurt yourself laughing. muscovado or molasses is good if your making ketchup or bar b que sauce/img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif. You can't always believe what you read in print unless it's Nonas recipe book. Italian cooking is not that hard to understand, use the minimum and best ingredients and don't overthink it. Funny. ciao

Well I thought about your post. If you are in an area that doesn't produce good tomatoes, there might be a need for some sort of sweetness but I would get it elsewhere then molasses. Remember to vent your pot while reducing and you won't need anything. TRUST ME! you know when an Italian says that what it means?/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


----------



## spoiledbroth

hand written family cook books, compatriota. Let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## panini

@SpoiledBroth ok/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Spanish is way down on my language list/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## spoiledbroth

panini said:


> @SpoiledBroth
> ok Spanish is way down on my language list:lol:


Spoken like a true American-Italian *sigh*  born in Texas I guess, or you're a northerner.


----------



## panini

SpoiledBroth said:


> Spoken like a true American-Italian *sigh* /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif born in Texas I guess, or you're a northerner.


Yea, you caught me. Never left the state of Texas. Adopted by Texans. Hate Italian food. Love taquitos and burritos. I especially dislike spoiled broth/img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif

oh by northern, did you mean Canadian?


----------



## oldschool1982

SpoiledBroth said:


> ... lol? really? I have family cookbooks from Italy that call for muscovado or molasses sugars. Funny.


Well good for you! I have cook books too and just because it's in there doesn't mean it's the best thing or it's it chiseled in stone. If it works for you then don't mess with it. But I personally wouldn't appreciate a molasses flavor in my marinara or any tomato based sauce including BBQ so I still stick by my statement.


----------



## spoiledbroth

^ That knife cuts both ways. Molasses/muscovado is not added to taste, it is added as a complimentary seasoning. You're right with regard to bbq, but I'm not adding nearly that amount.


panini said:


> Yea, you caught me. Never left the state of Texas. Adopted by Texans. Hate Italian food. Love taquitos and burritos. I especially dislike spoiled brotheace:
> oh by northern, did you mean Canadian?


Aye no, I mean the north end of the Boot. Compatriota is Italian for compatriot, ie countryman.


----------



## panini

@SpoiledBroth,

I enjoy the banter. btw Compatriota came into my head as Spanish. Must be the same word. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif boot??? No No I actually did my DNA a while back and found out that I am from Neanderthals.

So my wife was right all along./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

check out 23andme.com


----------



## Iceman

WOW.

I said in a post before how I generally do this, but here is my standard _"Tomato Sauce"_. Yeah, I know, it's Bohemian and blasphemous in all regards to traditional Italian sauce. Yeah, I know, you all are gonna bust my chops for this. But still, this works every time. It never gets any complaints. I used this just last night cooking in a mob place. A coupla guys said they wanted my recipe. LOL. I refused telling them they just had to pay me to cook for them more often.

OK then. Here's the recipe:

1 can each _(same sized cans_): 




  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Oct 5, 2014











  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Oct 5, 2014







_(*"Jewel"* house brand)_

Cook it up until it hot ... use it with whatever.

_We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery._​


----------



## panini

@IceMan,

I don't think anybody is going to bust your chops, especially if you're cooking at a mob place/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif You don't cook at the Federal Pen, do you?

Italian cooking is not complicated, you cook with what you have. Tonight, pasta fagioli. Had fresh fava beans and the ingredients for a white sauce./img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif


----------



## Iceman

LOL. I was in a suburb of Chicago. Someone earlier mentioned this very same hamlet. Picture if you will, a place out of _"Goodfellas_" or _"The Sopranos"_. But with real mob guys, not those New Jersey mooks. I cook there every so often when enough wiseguys want real eats, all as a group. I do for 20+, not 1 or 2. The dish-'o'-the-nite was meatballs over fried angel-hair pasta*** w/ ricotta cheese and a mix'em-up of sautéed eggplant/zucchini/sweet peppers/onions and garlic bread. Everything outside of the meatballs was Bohemian. I kept the hard-noses out of the kitchen. As it was, one(1) guy caused a little problem. This clown, called _"Al the Jew"_, asked if the meatballs were kosher. OMG ... are you kidding me?!? Another guy, _"Jimmy the Stick"_, yells at him to shut up, picks up a meatball and fires it off at him from about 10-15 feet away. It nails him in the chest and explodes. Everyone fell about the place in laughter. I zoomed myself right back into the kitchen. Every time I go there I bring in a bottle of wine _(just to miff somebody off)_. Last night it was a killer _Primitivo_. I give


----------



## alexb

oldschool1982 said:


> Yes, not all types of tomatoes will work but the only one's I've ever run across when making sauce were cherry and grape. But it's not like you're using only those as the base. IMPO, at least you shouldn't be. However, I have thrown those in the mix when their loosing their quality.
> 
> I really haven't found any tomato that doesn't work yet for the most part, it's Beefsteak, Campari, Heirloom, when making sauce. As far as heirloom tomatoes are concerned, I wouldn't use the variegated or purple varieties, and I haven't run across very many red pears or more appropriately known as San Marzano variety. My Grand Mother had these in her garden but those seeds disappeared 45 years ago. and I haven't found any in a grocery store since I was a kid and we shopped at Tom Naples in Melrose Park IL.
> 
> I tend to cook the Roma's and Beefsteak tomato's longer than the Campari or Heirloom. For example, my original post mentioned 12 hours, that would be for the prior and maybe 30-40 minutes at the very most for the latter. There is definitely a fresher taste and lighter consistency and this has it's place. Sometimes it's nice to have fresh and light not a long simmer sauce.
> 
> Also, the pasta plays a larger role for the lighter sauce since it's cooked more al dente. This leaves a little extra starch from the pasta when you toss it on the stove top. You just end up a minute or two longer in the pan. Also, as you toss it between the fork and spoon on the plate while eating (and yes, I most always use that technique when eating long noodles and never break them before cooking), the pasta absorbs even more of the water and you're left with the nice fresh tomato coating the pasta while you're eating. It also leaves a nice bit on the plate for sopping with bread at the end.


 Hi old school.

Just some questions and comments. I am wondering what you mean by grape tomatoes. I have found cherry and plum tomatoes in a can, "San Marzano" imported from Italy . Mutti, La Bella, La Valle . These all state they are plum tomatoes. I have had quite satisfactory results with all three. What are the seeds that disappeared 45 years ago? I do not doubt what you have said, I am just very interested in what you mean.( "I tend to cook the Roma's and beefsteak tomatoes longer than the Campari or the heirloom") I think you are correct. I tried cooking the heirloom for two hours and 40 minutes. It was not as good as the canned plum tomatoes. The heirlooms were absolutely fresh and beautiful tasting when raw. So I thought they would make a better sauce then the canned plum . I must add that I used hot Italian sausage. The plum tomatoes were better with the hot Italian sausage. with longer cooking time.

Now I am going to use my heirloom tomatoes that I have canned myself. I will be making a meat sauce.( Bolognese ) . Should I keep the time down to 30 or 40 minutes ? And add the herbs at the end , or feed the sauce through the cooking process ? I plan to use dried sage and dried thyme. Can I also use fresh basil towards the end. Or is this too many Herbs ? I have a feeling it would be .


----------



## oldschool1982

@AlexB I have to apologize for not getting back sooner. I started a response and then my world blew up so I'm just getting back to the web now.

By grape tomatoes I was referring to the smaller similar to cherry tomatoes but not as round....they're more oblong like a grape. These are not really intended to make large amount of anything, especially sauce, due to their size, cost and flesh to moisture content or at least that's what I have always understood. In reality, they're typically best used in their most popular, whole form for salads, even here at home. It's only once in a while I will add them as an "ingredient" for a pasta dish or cut them in 1/4's or smaller to add to a quesadilla or flat bread melt. The only time I ever use them in a sauce is if they were starting to "prune" and I was making sauce at the time. Otherwise, I'd throw them in the freezer to save for later but then again, we're talking maybe a handful or a small baggie versus 10-15lbs of larger tomatoes.

As far as time, I use celery, carrots and onions as well as lamb and or beef in my main-stay Bolognese so I cook longer. I try not to use the heirloom or Campari tomatoes for that unless it's all I have available in a leftover sauce. Fresh Roma's or any other large "beefsteak" style tomato works best in my opinion but Bolognese is an entirely different topic covered extensively here and I don't want to change the subject.

Anyhow, as far as spices or herbs, again another personal preference, I lean toward basil strictly (copious amounts too) with no thyme, sage or even oregano and definitely never that called "Italian spice" blend that's sold out there. Sometimes I will toast some fennel seed and/or crushed red pepper in olive oil for a different profile but not much more. We're talking tomato sauce here so again, it's my opinion, those other spices can cloud each other as well as the true nature of the sauce.......the tomato.......in addition to the few accompanying ingredients.

I would say just experiment. Try some of the suggestions made by everyone and see what hits your palette best. Make it your own. That's what most of us Chef's (current and former) do. You may find two or three things that work great and also a combination that is disposal worthy but unless you try, you won't know. I can say from experience, ther are a hundred ways how not to but also a few dozen variations that taste pretty darned good.


----------



## alapic

I had a little yellow and green split peas but not too much. I also like to add barley and not too much long grain rice. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


----------



## clifton

I simply love pasta. So a blob of sauce is always what I want. People sure do have different tastes.


----------

