# Let's talk Santoku (dont throw your chefs knives at me)



## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Hello everyone!

    Let get to the point, I am looking for a good quality 5" or 6" Santoku knife. 

At first I wanted to buy a box set of knives, however, after hearing out our fellow chef Galley Swiller and careful consideration I decided that he was right and I should just get the knives that I need.

As I explained to Galley before, for my daily chopping (primarily veggies and food prep) I am most comfortable with a Santoku. Of course, I do use a chef's knife here and there when I need a bigger knife (usually) but I find myself always going for a Santoku otherwise. So before everyone tries to convince me that a chefs knife is better and can do everything (and more) than a Santoku, we should all remember it is about personal preference and comfort. 

What I am asking exactly is for you guys to help me find the perfect Santoku, I obviously cant try them all so maybe someone here can introduce me to my soulmate (Santoku). I would like to spend no more than $100-125. 

Now as to what I have already tried, I seem to prefer the Zwilling J.A Henckels Pro and Four Star II collections to the Wusthof Classics (call me crazy). I also looked into the Victorinox Forged black handle (NOT Fibrox handle) Santoku and liked it.

I don't have a crazy budget, in total its about $300 bucks. And I have already decided to get a 8" Chefs Knife from K-Sabatier (since I use it less often, I wanted to splurge more on the Santoku).

As to my sharpening skills, they are minimal. I am will to learn but nothing too complicated from the start. Galley recommended I get an Edge Pro Apex, however, after looking at it I was intimidated. If there is something smaller and more "beginner-like" I would be much obliged. Not only is the Edge Pro too expensive but, to me, it seems to have too many parts to be a learners kit. Maybe once I am a more intermediate sharpener, I can upgrade. 

Finally, I would really appreciate if BDL gave his input as well (although I have read enough to know you don't care much for Santoku knives), after reading through many of the forums I have come to value your opinion. 

Thank you to very everyone in advanced!

O. Brusov


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Let me recommend this one. It's a little more expensive ($180) but i'm sure you will not regret the purchase:

*Misono UX Series 7" Santoku*





  








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ordo


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Pick from Japanesechefknife.com.

Good luck with BDL!


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

5 or 6 is too short imho. 8 would be my recommendation so you have enough length to set up guillotine and glide action. 

You need to be able to keep the tip on the board and lift the heel high enough to clear the stacked vegies comfortably. 5-6 inch blades won't do that. 

It's much the same reason that the Chinese Chef's knife (cleaver shape) is right there at 8 inches long.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Just tossing a wee bit of information onto this thread.

I cannot recall seeing any santoku having a blade length of more than 180 mm, which works out to 7 inches.

Galley Swiller


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

phatch,

       the reason I wanted to get a 5" or 6" Santoku is because I will already be buying an 8" Chefs knife. Since, for now, I will only be buying a few knives to start building my collection (santoku, chefs, paring and bread) - I didn't want to end up with 2 8" knives and have nothing else besides a 3" paring and 9" bread. Also, I don't know if other women have this problem, I feel like my hands are too small for regular use of an 8" knife - that may be the reason I reach for a 6" santoku in the first place. Maybe I can get away with a 7" though.

ordo,

   That looks like a nice one! Another question I had was whether to get a High Carbon or SS? 

Finally, do air pockets on a knife significantly matter?

O.Brusov


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

as you have learned from the many posts and opinions, "the best" - along with "right and wrong" is a very subjective thing.

if you'd like to try out a santuko, try the $20 variety from the grocery store Gadgets rack.  
DW got one for me at Christmas some time back.  it 'lasted' 2 years with only steeling before the edge started to fatigue and chip out.

also to note:  depending on the maker, santuko come with single side bevel (and thus a lefty vs righty version) or a double sided bevel.

I prefer the seven inch size.

and,,, the KitchenAid grocery store variety which lasted two years for $20, was a single sided bevel - with the ensuing perception of added sharpness.  at that cost, one could just toss it when the edge fatigues beyond reasonable use . . . it's stainless, it's softer, certainly could be 'rescued' - but at some effort or cost which likely would exceed the cost of a new one.....

replaced that with a Wuesthof Classic 7" santuko - no regrets, except it is a double bevel; thinking about converting that to single bevel....

generalities - I have three "go to" knives:
for vegetable prep, the 7 inch santuko
for disassembly of a (for example) chicken - the 6 or 8 inch chef
for bigger beef disassembly - a 7 inch boning knife.

the 8 inch chef's gets heavy use, so whether I pick the 6 or 8" depends on "how sharp do I need" combined with "and when was which last sharpened"

...7 inch santuko - shorter I would not recommend, regardless of chef knife length....  the santuko style has a "flatter" edge - consider the dimenions of the stuff you want to cut up.  a shorter knife than 'the stuff' will be not so good.  I submit you will find the "useability" factor of a 8" chef and an 7/8" santuko to be seriously different.  making two passes at a carrot julienne with a short santuko is not fun.

I have other knives - the 10" slicer for example gets used for turkey at the table and for skinning fish.... does not require a lot of maintanence . . . it is used infrequently.

bottom line is simply - how many sizes of different 'knife styles' you need really depends on your personal habits - i.e. what you frequently do in your kitchen.

example:  cole slaw - I buy a head of cabbage, halve it, core it, hand slice. I have a mandoline, I could slice it perfectly even and uniform - but I prefer the "more rustic" hand slice. I'm pretty sure I could slice it with a 4 inch paring knife.  but my weapon of choice is the 10" chef knife.  why?  because it's easier and quicker - I have serious doubts the cole slaw is going to taste better / worse based on what size/type of knife was used.

so, if that's nothing one ever does, does one require a 10" chef knife?

otho, I find the 10" chef knife a bit unwieldy for disassembly of a chicken.  breaking the joints apart, not having to smash thru bones, etc., a six inch chef knife or even the boning knife is more handy, at least to me.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Galley Swiller said:


> Just tossing a wee bit of information onto this thread.
> 
> I cannot recall seeing any santoku having a blade length of more than 180 mm, which works out to 7 inches.
> 
> Galley Swiller


You're likely right. That was one of my peeves with the Santokus I've played with was that they were too short.

To the OP, thanks for the clarification on your reasoning for the Santoku length. You might also then consider a "petty", a knife commonly in the 5-7 inch range and of a more generally useful shape for fruits and vegetables.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

It looks as if I'm going to get into this thread a bit more than I originally intended.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I am no expert on the santoku, but I did buy one earlier and found that I did not like it.  The specific knife I bought was a Henckels Zwilling Five Star, which is now discontinued, but is the same blade as the Four Star, except that the handle was an "ergo" handle.

At one point, I pulled out my handy-dandy-taking-a-measurement-is-everything best dial gauge caliper, which measures down directly to 1/1000 of an inch.  I trained it both on the Henckels santoku and a new Tojiro DP gyuto.  The Henckels santoku was a great deal thicker - by far! 

Which brings up the first of several important things to consider - edge sharpenings being the same, a thinner blade is going to be easier to cut through something than a thicker blade.  Thicker blades will have more wedging than thinner blades.

Second, generally, a forged blade will be thicker than either a stamped blade or a machined blade.

Third, for different knives using the same type of steel, any difference in the edge taking and keeping ability will be strictly determined by the heat treatment (annealing, quenching and tempering) during the manufacturing process.  Same steel type + same steel heat treatment = the same edge quality.  Forged vs. stamped vs. machined makes no difference in edge quality after heat treatment, when starting from the same type of steel.  But heat treatment specs are unique to each knife manufacturer and are usually trade secrets.  That's where a real difference comes in between different knife manufacturers.

European knife makers usually make several lines of knives, with their prestige lines using better steels, as well as better fit and finish.  For most of the German knife makers, Including Wusthof, Messermeister and Victorinox/Forschner, the steel used in the better knives is X50CrMoV15.  Victorinox in fact uses it for all of their knives.  Henckels Zwilling uses a different steel.  X50CrMoV15 (also known as Krupp 4116 steel, and also designated with the technical numerical classification of 1.4116) is a moderate quality steel, good for holding a moderate edge for a moderate amount of time, but really good for resisting chipping.  Knives made with 4116 steel generally tend to be made a bit thicker than comparable Japanese knives.

Victorinox makes knives in three different series.  Their best known are stamped steel knives in fibrox (molded) handles.  They also make a line using the same stamped steel blades, but with rosewood handles and they make a forged knife blade series.  There is no performance difference between the two lines using the stamped blades.

If you are really interested in Victorinox, to minimize wedging issues, I would suggest you look at the Victorinox rosewood handled stamped blade santoku, which costs $42.24 on Amazon.  The steel is 4116, and the blade will be thinner than the forged version, which will make a considerable difference compared to the forged version (which will come with better fit and finish, though that will not affect the fact that the forged blade will be thicker and will take more effort to cut through the same foods).

The Henckels knives you refer to are at least Zwillings ("Twins").  That is the better brand, mostly made in Germany.  Thank goodness they are not Henckels Internationals (single stick figure).  The Internationals are the big volume mass market knives, ranging much further downwards in quality compared to any of the Zwilling knives.

The next step up will be a quality Japanese knife.  These will be much closer in price to your upper limit.  Japanese knives are made with steel which is optimized for hardness, but that also makes them a bit more brittle.  The usual recommendation is to not use Japanese knives around either frozen foods or around bone - or expect chipping!

Look on such sites as Chef Knives To Go, Korin Knives, the Epicurean Edge and Japanese Knife Imports.  You should be able to get a good selection of quality Japanese santokus and get good measurement information about the knives (CKTG is especially good about posting blade thickness info).

For your price range, I would tend to discount or ignore knives with "Damascus" blades.  You need a knife or knives which concentrate their quality towards being working tools, rather than "Drawer Queens" (knives which are so fancy you are unwilling to use them for fear they might get damaged - and are referred to as "Drawer Queens" because they never get taken out of the drawer).  Damascus blades end up being "Drawer Queens"

Look at hardness ratings - you preferably would want a knife with a Rockwell Hardness of at least 58 - of the European knives, only the newer Wusthof 4116 steel knives and maybe the Messermeisters are at that rating.  Victorinox knives are heat treated to about 56.  Almost all of the quality Japanese knives meet or exceed that hardness rating.

As I said in an earlier posting, I wasn't really wanting to make recommendations about specific knives (I do so here about the Victorinox Rosewood santoku because of its low price, but temper it because of its hardness rating), but general information is a different issue.  What I list above is mostly general information about knives.

Galley Swiller


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

I missed the query about "air pockets".

Edges with those are usually referred to as "Granton edges".  The idea is that they will "break" the suction of food sticking/clinging to the side of the blade after the cut is completed.  The same idea applies to hammered dimples, to sand and to any roughened surface along the face of the blade.

Jury's still out on them.  Some say it works.  Some say it doesn't work.

Can't say for myself one way or another.

Take your pick on the opinions, or flip a coin.

Galley Swiller


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Its nice to know someone one on Chef Talk knows manufacturer trade secrets. 

I did see and hold the Victorinox knives that are not forged (fibrox/rosewood) and IMHO they feel too light. I prefer a heavier knife that is why I am leaning towards the forged Victorinox, that is also the same reason I preferred the Zwilling to the Wusthof's - the Zwilling's seemed heavier to me which I prefer. (I never considered Henckles International)

Since you seem to know a lot about steel quality, I might as well pick your brain. I am planning on buying a high carbon knife from K-Sabatier, nevertheless, I still want to get a SS knife which is a little less maintenance. Are K-Sabatier SS knives any good? Are the better/worse than Victorinox forged ones in terms of the steel quality?

I am not interested in Japanese knives. I prefer the german/french style.

P.S. 

Thanks for joining the thread!

O.Brusov


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

If you like Zwilling/Henckels, swing through the clearance section of Cutlery and More. They always have useful stuff on the cheap.

The "dimples" are called Kullens and I lean to the useless side of that with some exceptions.

You will see the term "Granton" edge because a British maker, Granton" originated that and the kullens come all the way to the edge unlike everyone else where they do not.

http://www.granton-knives.co.uk/granton_edge_knives.html

Glestain makes blades with huge kullens that are effective due to their size.

Jim


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

odbrusov said:


> I am not interested in Japanese knives. I prefer the german/french style.
> 
> O.Brusov


What? Why?


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Ordo,

   They tend to have flatter bellies and less of a point. Also, in my experience they tend to be lighter to hold and I prefer my knife to have more weight to it. Not to mention the fact that they are usually more expensive (Shun, MAC etc.) and they have a higher chipping rate. Put that all together and I would just rather not buy Japanese.

And to sound more vain, I like the look of french/german knives better.

It is ironic though that I prefer Santokus but dislike Japanese knives....what can I say *shrug*

Its not that I would never use them, I just wouldn't buy them for myself.

O.brusov

P.S. - Please take no offense, you're awesome if you only do Japanese...


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Knowing that there are trade secrets is not the same as know what the trade secrets are.  So, no, I really don't know what their trade secrets are concerning heat treatment - only the general process, which is not really a secret.

Except for pattern, the K-Sabatier stainless knives really are not much different in steel from their German counterparts.  Stainless steel is much more prevalent on the market than carbon steel - and that includes the current production by old time Sabatier companies (there are more knife companies that use the Sabatier name than just the one mentioned here).  

This website and others mostly discuss the carbon steel Sabatiers, partially because of the metal and partially because of the design.  If you look at the design of many Japanese gyutos, you are really looking at the design of the classic French Chef's knife.  That design had a spine with a pronounced dropped tip and a flatter edge profile.  German knives used to be the same, but have evolved towards having more belly and a straighter spine.  German style chef's knives are better in design for rotating an up-and-down motion for chopping up light vegetables, while keeping the tip of the knife on or near the cutting board.  The flatter French profile (which is also seen in Japanese knives) are more intended for "guillotine and glide" cutting.

The other major issue is the steel.  German style knives imported into this country will almost always be stainless steel.  German manufacturers have essentially turned away from any carbon steel blades.  The advantages are that the knives are somewhat less prone to corrosion.  Thje disadvantage is that the steel is harder, thus more difficult to sharpen.  it is also less maleable (maleability is the ability of a metal to be bent over and then bent back).  Stainless steel knives also form larger carbide grains than carbon steel knives..  

The result is that it is easier to sharpen a carbon steel knife.  The greater maleability and smaller grain pattern of a carbon steel knife also make it more likely that simple honing will remain effective much longer for a carbon steel knife.  Where a carbon steel edge would be pushed over during cutting, then pushed back during honing, a stainless steel knife would resist having the edge pushed over (and would go longer without honing), but the individual carbide grains along the edge would be more likely to come off the edge of a stainless steel knife than would be the case with a carbon steel knife.  

Carbon steel knives are nowadays only made by French, Japanese and custom knife makers.

It's a long windup to answer your question about stainless steel K-Sabatiers (and also taking into account Thers-Issard and the other remaining traditional French Sabatier knife manufacturers), but there's probably not all that much difference between the stainless steel in K-Sabatier stainless knives and their German counterparts.  Victorinox/Forschner knives are pretty much in the same range as the other German knives when it comes to steel quality - the difference being that they are by far the least expensive knives using 4116 steel, with the possible exception of the Wusthof Pro line (pretty much available only on eBay - 4116 stamped steel with ergonomic molded plastic handles - intended for general restaurant/institutional kitchen use).

When it comes to specialty steels in kitchen cutlery, that's where the Japanese knives really shine.  And if it's a more German pattern, but with a better-than-4116-steel knife you seek, you might look at Shun knives.

Galley Swiller


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## dhmcardoso (Apr 29, 2013)

I have 3 recommendations for you:

1)Mac pro

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/macprmisa61.html

2)Sakai Takayuki

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/satadahasa18.html

3)Gesshin Uraku

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com.../santoku/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-santoku.html

All stainless, there are other good options on carbon. If you are considering it.


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Galley,
Thank you again for your detailed response, I always enjoy learning something new. The reason I was asking about the SS Sabatiers was because they are slightly more affordable than the German knives, not counting the stamped knives (forged only) since they are of course cheaper. If there is no huge difference in German/French steel then I might as well go with the more affordable French knives. 

Some of the Shun knives are definitely good looking but they are a bit out of my price range. Someday....someday...

I will get a carbon French knife though. I am debating between K-Sabatier Au Carbone or the Sabatier Nogent, I would be getting a Chefs knife.

dhmcardoso,
I took a look at your recommendations. I like the Sakai Takayuki and its decently priced. About the Gesshin Uraku, is it fully forged? It looks to me like with time the blade may brake from the handle (Japanese knives are already thinner). 

O. Brusov


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

On the Sabatier Nogent - I hope you are referring to a vintage blade K-Sabatier nogent or to the Thiers-Issard vintage nogents being offered by The Best Things website.

The reason I ask is that there is also a knife producer who uses the "Nogent" name as a brand, and does not produce true "nogents", which are knives with very thin ("rat tail") tangs which are entirely enclosed in their handles.  I am definitely not impressed by the "Nogent" brand name.  But if it is one of the knives directly from K-Sabatier or a knife from The Best Things, then you would be getting a quality carbon steel knife.

Do read BDL's past posts about asking The Best Things to select the straightest blade being sent to you.

Galley Swiller


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Yes, I am speaking about the ones offered on The Best Things website. It is listed under Sabatier so I didn't bother writing Thiers-Issard. 

Nevertheless, I am still debating between the Au Carbone by K-Sabatier (by Sabatier Aine and Perrier) or the Nogent (from The Best Things). Would anyone know if there is a difference in weight?

O. Brusov


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## dhmcardoso (Apr 29, 2013)

odbrusov said:


> Galley,
> Thank you again for your detailed response, I always enjoy learning something new. The reason I was asking about the SS Sabatiers was because they are slightly more affordable than the German knives, not counting the stamped knives (forged only) since they are of course cheaper. If there is no huge difference in German/French steel then I might as well go with the more affordable French knives.
> 
> Some of the Shun knives are definitely good looking but they are a bit out of my price range. Someday....someday...
> ...


The blade is fully forged but it goes around half the handle. Don´t worry about that it will not break. I really prefer the wa handles because it makes the knife pretty lighter.

About the comment around Shun knives... they are good kives, but extremelly overpriced in my opinion. You can easily find knives as good as or better than Shun's for lower prices.

Both k-sab or "true" Nogent are excelent knifes with an amazing profile.

Daniel.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

about 2/3-3/4 in to the handle (the tang on japanese knives)... never seen one snap there yet


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

For comparable length knives, the nogent should be lighter than the full flat tang/riveted handle, since there is a lot less metal in the handle and wood (even ebony) is a lot lighter.than steel.

I also am presuming that the nogent blade may be thinner, to compensate for the lack of counterbalance from the "rat tail" tang.  While I have not handled a nogent chef's knife, my family has used Thiers-Issard carbon steel nogent paring knives for decades, and they are noticably thinner and lighter than our forged, full flat tang/riveted handled paring knives.

Galley Swiller


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

I would keep in mind that, while the blades (and attached tangs) being offered on the The Best Things website nogents are vintage, the handles are new, and are not necessarily the same construction or interior hole diameter as the ones which Bernard Levine was writing about.

I would also note that nogents are of especial appeal to those who use a pinch grip - in which case, the strength of the handle is of much lesser importance.

Galley Swiller


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

odbrusov, if you're looking for a short santoku, I may have a suggestion. It's not a heavy weight German but a light 2 mm thin, thus "fragile" Japanese one. When sharpened properly it will make your eyes bleed by just looking at it;

I'm not trying to recommend you anything, I will only say that I more than often use this 160mm Hiromoto aogami santoku and that I'm very happy with it. It's my go to knife for all small and last minute jobs like cutting fresh herbs, an onion, garlic, but also to cut (not chop!)... dark chocolate! I dropped it a long time ago and had to regrind the broken tip. The blade you're looking at in the picture is now 4 mm shorter than the authentic length. I have to add that the handle is a bit on the short side.

Mine came from JCK http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper





  








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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

ChrisBelgium,

    Thanks for the tip! I took a look at the Tenmi and its reasonably priced so I will definitely take it into consideration. I live in the New York/metro area, would you know if it is possible to get the feel of this knife anywhere?

I am hesitant to order online without trying it.

Thanks,

O.


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## popcorny (Sep 4, 2013)

They don't seem to carry that specific knife, but Korin carries a good selection of western-handled Santoku and are located in New York: http://korin.com/Knives/Style-Santoku_2


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

odbrusov said:


> ChrisBelgium,
> 
> Thanks for the tip! I took a look at the Tenmi and its reasonably priced so I will definitely take it into consideration. I live in the New York/metro area, would you know if it is possible to get the feel of this knife anywhere?
> 
> ...


I live in Europe, so from my side of the Big Pond, I have no idea if they are sold in stores in your area. My guess is probably not. I ordered my Hiromotos on-line too without having touched any of them.

A suggestion; sniff around a bit on this knife forum run by Dave Martell. He tweaks a lot of Hiromotos, seems there are a lot of fans around. Maybe you will find some answers there?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/11803-Gallery-Hiromoto-AS-Full-Spa-Treatment


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

> ChrisBelgium,
> 
> Thanks for the tip! I took a look at the Tenmi and its reasonably priced so I will definitely take it into consideration. I live in the New York/metro area, would you know if it is possible to get the feel of this knife anywhere?


check out the chef knives to go site under the name hiromoto, available in stainless clad and blue steel core or all stainless steel called ginsanko aka G3


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

But this guy doesn't want a Japanese knife... Wants a santoku, but not Japanese...

I had a Hiromoto G3 Santoku. Nimble as a feather. It was a present for a friend. Very nice steel.


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## odbrusov (Jul 18, 2013)

Ordo,
Sorry to mislead, but I'm not a guy I'm a woman, hence, the small santoku (probably). 

Benuser,
Thanks for the rec. I will definitely check the Lignum out. 

Thanks,
O.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

odbrusov said:


> Ordo,
> Sorry to mislead, but I'm not a guy I'm a woman, hence, the small santoku (probably).
> 
> O.


Ops! Sorry. Will not forget that (but i hope you change your mind about Japanese knives anyway, ha!)


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Oh, obrusov, I had no idea you are a girl. In that case that Hiromoto with its short handle might suit you more than I could imagine.

However, there's another one I will draw your attention to. By no means the cheapest one, also a Japanese one, but very highly valued knives by many pros and amateurs.

It's a Hattori HD series 170 mm santoku. I bought this lot for my daughter. Really good material and a nice "sculpted" micarta grip.

It's the fourth one from the left (click on the image to enlarge);





  








HattoriKF.jpg




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chrisbelgium


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Sep 27, 2013








I got them here; http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HattoriForumHighEndChefsKnives.html#HattoriFH


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Benuser said:


> Chris, in the text you refer to the HD series, where the photo and link make clear you meant the FH series.


Thanks for pointing it out! they are indeed FH's.


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