# Shibata Kotetsu VS Masakage Kumo



## eduardo castro (Jul 8, 2016)

Hi! i want to bought a new knife and i'm between a Shibata Kotetsu 240mm R2 powdered steel and the Masakage Kumo 210mm VG10 steel any toughts about those knives?





  








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eduardo castro


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eduardo castro


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

2 totally different knives, so what are you really thinking here?  It is unclear what you are looking for.

I will say that I would never spend $340 for a VG-10 knife, it's not that great a steel.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The thing about expensive knives is that you will scratch them up sharpening.  Then they don't look as nice.   The other thing about nice knives is they get stolen.

For work, my priority is different than for collecting.  My priorities and everybody's can be different of course

1) Grind, cutitng performance

2) Profile - I don't care how nice it cuts if it is not a shape I want to use

3) Ease of sharpening  - I like wide bevel carbons because they are so easy to maintain and make them look 'like new'

4) edge retention - this a struggle with #3 and sometimes #1.  You can't have it all

5) handle -this is low on the list because with a good grip you can use any knife and also I can replace handles

6) fit and finish  -low on the list unless it is glaringly bad on an expensive knife.  Typically you can round the spine etc on your own

7) price - i don't bring anything more than $150 to work

So what is important to you?  Cutting performance, sharpenability, edge retention?  Budget?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Judging by your pictures alone... they look beautifully crafted!


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## eduardo castro (Jul 8, 2016)

Rick Alan said:


> 2 totally different knives, so what are you really thinking here? It is unclear what you are looking for.
> 
> I will say that I would never spend $340 for a VG-10 knife, it's not that great a steel.


i have my whole set for work, i just love knives and i want another  also i saw the Masakage at 258 usd but about spend to much on vg10 it's a good point!


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## eduardo castro (Jul 8, 2016)

MillionsKnives said:


> The thing about expensive knives is that you will scratch them up sharpening. Then they don't look as nice. The other thing about nice knives is they get stolen.
> 
> For work, my priority is different than for collecting. My priorities and everybody's can be different of course
> 
> ...


i have my whole set for work, i don´t scratch while sharpening so it's not a problem and i wouldn't take this knife at work i just love knives and i want another that look and perform beautifully and both are stainless, i've heard a lot of good things about the Shibata Kotetsu and none of the Masakage but i have to admit that Kumo looks better (by the look) for me and i can only afford one of them


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

You have to scratch up the sides or you only work the bevel. If you sharpen a pencil, how long will it be effective never removing the wood part?

There is a world of better vendors and knives than cktg IMO. I wouldnt spend $300 there


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Better price here, toggle USD https://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-kumo/products/masakage-kumo-gyuto-210mm

Profile between the two lines of knives are quite different. Expect the Shibata Kotetsu to be pretty flat. Mind the tip, and don't rock too much.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I really haven't a feel yet for what would really please you, but I don't think it would be the Masakage. A lot of knives have excellent resale value, like 80% and sometimes better if you hold onto them a bit, makes trading-up a lot easier, but that wouldn't apply to the MK. Bottom line, you can go for a $300 dollar range knife now, and swing to something around $600 when you've saved a bit more cash. And the are some really snazzy looking as well as great performing knives in that range

Shiro Kamo R2 is a very attractive Damascus-clad, and a great cutter too.

SK distributors you have to choose from:

http://shibataknives.com/retailers/

What do you really want from this knife, in terms of performance? Because the knives you picked go from mediocre middleweight to first rate, but flexy, laser


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

unless you need the knife tomorrow, SHOP.  for the $300+ you would send to Japan for a blade probably made in PRC, you can get a custom blade made here in the USA by someone who cares about making the best blade for you, not $$$$.

scott


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Scott, just because you make your own knives doesn't give you the right to smear Japanese smiths who have a stellar reputation for a reason.  Slander is not the way to promote your own products, you'll soon discover.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

uneunsae said:


> Scott, just because you make your own knives doesn't give you the right to smear Japanese smiths who have a stellar reputation for a reason. Slander is not the way to promote your own products, you'll soon discover.


not trying to promote my stuff, first of all not allowed, second i don't make knives like that. you don't know what is happening 8000 miles away. large companies out source, assemble the pieces and afix their name. when ever someone asks for recommendations, the first replies are almost always Japanese makers. no one mentions Lamson, Nora, Calton, Warther, R Murphy, New West Knifeworks, Cut Brooklyn, Saba, Cangshan, serenity, HHH custom,. Salem Straub, and the list goes on. lots of beginners here would probably be better off with something from Old Hickory or Case or Rada to learn with.

scott


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Looking through all of your posts, you do the same thing that you accuse the people here of - having an extreme bias towards American makers.  Do you have a personal issue with anything that's not made in the USA?  Because honestly, that's how you come across to me.  Can you show us which of these Japanese smiths mass produce in China?   Just because someone is closer to home doesn't make them more trustworthy... unless you go there personally and watch them make the exact knife they are selling to you.  Many knife vendors DO visit these smiths in Japan and see their outfit for themselves.

There are also many technical reasons and personal preferences that would lead someone to choose a Japanese blade.  

By all means, there's nothing wrong with recommending American makers based on technical information, but you seem to have a vendetta against Japanese makers.  Otherwise you wouldn't spread false rumors about them.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Cangshan's Chinese. I'd be surprised if the Masakage brand had bigger output than an R Murphy, New West Knifeworks, or possibly a Warther. I've looked at those 3 and just decided that as a short person, for the money I can get knife profiles more suited to my cutting motion. Not to mention we are not talking the same price range as Serenity or HHH at all. The folks who come here with a $500-1000 dollar per knife recommendation can certainly look at those.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

nevermind...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> About which so-called Japanese blades that are actually made in China are you speaking?


Well for the record, there are a number of cheap blades made in China:

Ikea for example has/had a damascus clad VG10 they were selling for $70

I don't doubt many Globals are PCR

The really cheap home kitchen knives of Wusty and Henckles, pretty sure PCR.

And I do believe it possible that Tojiro's DP line gets made there, which should concern no one as we all know its commendable reputation, along with Victorinox and the Wusthof Pro series, if I'm not completely mistaken.

But absolutely none of the above-entry-level Japanese knives, at least the ones that get a mention here, are made in China. And even if by some slim chance they were (China just does not have the army of skilled craftsman,), it wouldn't matter as these knives have an a pretty impeccable reputation.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

I apologize to anyone who felt smeared by my comment. trouble with making broad comments. Spyderco has problems with counterfeit copies of their knives being made in PRC then exported to US under different names, same thing is probably happening in kitchen knives. I am not biased against Japanese smiths or German smiths or English knifemakers. Just never see an American company or smith even mentioned. here is discussion with owner of Spyderco http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?4,63061

I will admit, I have never seen or touched a new knife made by a small Japanese maker, joy of living in a small town. I have seen some Shun at the local Williams/Sonoma, when I asked to handle one the sales person walked away. I guess i don't see the mystique.

scott


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Scott: The mystique of any knife isn't as much what you see as it is what you feel and experience. . But thanks for plugging alternatives... it richens the discussion.

I've been noticing an interesting thing about Chinese knock-offs of many products... they often are quite good. Very unlike "the olden days".


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Scott, I plugged you in a couple recent posts because I felt the small kitchen knives you were offering were good dollar value, and people would be interested, especially in customs.

But none of us here know of American makers who can do a 240 gyuto/chefs, for example, that could complete price-for-quality with Japanese makers.  Typically American smiths are getting around $4-500, and much more, for a plain 240 Gyuto that, with a few exceptions, would be about the equal of an Itonomon Kasumi for around $200.  You mentioned Calton Cutlery, I saw a chefs on his site that looked good, but for $300+.  That's Konosuki range now, $350, but just a couple years back they were selling for $250.  Demand commands the price, they're not really better than Japanese knives costing considerably less, so you don't see us plugging them here either.

Still, for someone who wanted a good knife in a particularly American steel, like 52100, or particular tool steel that can't easily be found overseas, or if they wanted specif blade profiles or handles, then Calton is a definitely a consideration, and definitely worth the money if his HT's are on and he guarantees customer satisfaction, which most American Smiths do.  If you know of more makers like Calton then go right ahead and plug them.

It is good that you admitted no knowledge of Japanese knives, because herein lies the problem.  As you know performance is a numbers game - Steel used, quality of heat treat, grind, especially edge thickness, etc.  You get to know Japanese and you quickly see the dollar/performance value you can find there.  Shun, BTW, cannot be considered a Japanese knifes so far as most of their offerings are concerned.  Again, it's a numbers game, and the numbers for their Classic and Premier lines put them in the low-end of entry level Japanese knives, performance-wise.  In terms of Fit/Finish they are very good, except the tacky decals that wear quickly disintegrate, but overall not as good as other knives in the price range, like a Geshin Gonbei.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Another factor is the amount of broad name recognition and appeal that separates a 'Spyderco' from a 'Masakage'. Why would you counterfeit a brand that only a relatively small quantity of people even know of in the first place?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

There are A class and B class knifemakers.  The best American makers cost $500+ and they are making customs.  And just because you shell out money doesn't mean that the grind is going to cut great.  Heck a lot of these guys charging $$$ are doing stock removal and sending their knives out for heat treatment (cut brooklyn).  Just cause it looks fancy and the public is uninformed and generally unskilled in cooking they can get away with it.

There is something to be said for hundreds of years of apprenticeship system vs someone who is more or less 'winging it'.  Since I can make my own handles, I could care less about that part of the custom aspect.  I'm not paying for someone to learn as they go.  If I buy a knife, I want cutting performance pure and simple.  In the price range I'm using that is pretty much all japanese.

R murphy is a few towns away from me and their oyster knvies are great.  Their chefs knife is fat and wedgy.  Forgecraft I used to recommend vintage carbons from but the price is nuts now.  And yes I own a few great customs.  The paring the knife in my profile pic is from del ealy

Some of us here have experience with many knife makers from all different continents, so yeah it is kind of irksome that you who have never used any japanese knives would shoot your mouth off about them.  I will continue to recommend whatever I want.  If there was american makers in the same price range and quality I would gladly recommend them.

I made my first souffle yesterday and I more or less knew how to make a souffle but until you actually do it, you know nothing!


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Benuser said:


> It was about those China made knives I still am curious.


the issue would be with distributors marketing counterfeit copies


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Scott Livesey said:


> the issue would be with distributors marketing counterfeit copies


Not to worry there, if a distributor of Japanese knives were crazy enough to even consider that, upon receiving his first copies he'd whack himself over the head for being such an idiot as to think the Chinese would produce anything even remotely passable to the quality of knives people expect from him.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

MillionsKnives said:


> I made my first souffle yesterday and I more or less knew how to make a souffle but until you actually do it, you know nothing!


This, ya.

Scott you do know what makes for a good knife, even if you don't know what the Japanese can offer, and particularly at any specific price point.

We have had/may still have some characters around here who pretend to be experts, even though they barely know how to sharpen and never used anything better than an old Forgecraft. All of that which contributes to irksomeness does nothing for the people coming here for information, except confuse and put-off.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

MillionsKnives said:


> I made my first souffle yesterday and I more or less knew how to make a souffle but until you actually do it, you know nothing!


so how many knives have you made? i am over several hundred and each one is better than the one before.

you said R Murphy is nearby. did you go see someone and complain about the fat handles on their blades?

as far as counterfeits, go to eBay and search for deba or ajikiri or santoku. you don't think with a fancy box, some tissue paper, and a good spiel, those cheap knives could be marketed as the real deal and triple your money?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

This line of insinuation boils down to - everyone should make their own knives or otherwise sit down and watch the maker make *your specific knife! and hand it to you*. Otherwise you risk getting a counterfeit. I don't systematically assign someone or some company more integrity because they are geographically somewhat closer to me


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Scott, you need to stop now.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

https://knifewear.com/blogs/news/armitage-in-japan-the-conclusion If you can tell me where I can find these folks in China then I will do my best to take a detour there my next trip back to see relatives. Otherwise I'll keep buying from vendors which I am very confident are contracting knives from Japanese smiths/makers who are doing fantastic work at a price range that works for me and works for a fair few of the new posters to CT who list those kinds of budgets.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

1) I have made 0 knives and if I did, the first few hundred would be crap.  Maybe you can DIY learn to make hunting knives quickly but kitchen knives are actually meant to be used.  

2) Why would I pay some amateur knifemaker more money than something crafted by professionals? Even cut brooklyn for example, one of the more successful shops, does stock removal on stamped knives and doesn't even heat treat in house.  Why would I want this over something hand forged and ground by someone with thousands of knives and decades of experience?  For a cool handle shape and a story? pass. This is classic example of everybody trying to be an artist but not mastering the basic craft first. 

3) Literally nobody else is talking about knife making, only shopping.  

4) Read better.  I was talking about R murphy's fat grind not the handle.  And no, I didn't tell them this because I am not their target audience.  They make a knife that can stand some abuse on purpose.  This has a place in the world that's why wusthofs sell.

5) Nobody is talking about random ebay vendors of which some are definitely counterfeit.  Any vendors I recommend I have actually bought from.  I know them on facebook, instagram, and forums.  I have seen their documented trips to work with knife makers in japan.  

6) You completely missed the point of my metaphor.  You talk a lot about japanese vs american knives but you know nothing about half of this.  

I'm done with this thread. unsubscribed!  Good luck OP on your shopping and don't listen to Scott


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Rick Alan said:


> Scott, you need to stop now.


ok. i don't doubt you guys are getting the real thing, but when shopping online, let the buyer beware.

scott


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

MillionsKnives said:


> There are A class and B class knifemakers. The best American makers cost $500+ and they are making customs. And just because you shell out money doesn't mean that the grind is going to cut great. Heck a lot of these guys charging $$$ are doing stock removal and sending their knives out for heat treatment (cut brooklyn). Just cause it looks fancy and the public is uninformed and generally unskilled in cooking they can get away with it.


Um, stock removal on modern steels can far surpass forged blades in many areas. Can, not automatically so. Sintered steels and powder mettalurgy provide options, and crystal structure and lattice impossible in forged steels. In my opinion, this is a superior method than traditional forging, as a broad generalization. But the design and tolerances of the process are still important to producing proper geometry. There are plenty of sharpened pry bars from both methods of production.

I own a number of Bark River knives made in the stock removal process. Fantastic outdoor blades with excellent convex grinds, though Mike Stewart often heads down the sharpened pry bar path. His Super Chef tempts me. It's pretty thin, and I trust his grind and heat treatment, even though it's all stock removal and contracted heat treat. His handle is a bit odd for most kitchen work, but with a pinch grip, seems fine from pictures. Runs around $300. CPM20CV, a high end powder metallurgy steel. Your choice of handle material.





  








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There have been a number of reviews of New West Knives here, I've done a few. They tend to run thick or have less than optimal geometry. But some are also excellent. Their bread knife is excellent. Their petty pretty good.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Handle has more figure to it than I thought originally.





  








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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Bark River are good about modifying handles to your request though. Either tweak one you bought or make it that way on their next run of those blades.


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