# Shortbread cookie company?



## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

Hi,

I was thinking of doing a shortbread cookie company and was wondering it feasible to do it?

Open to public, wholesale and online/ship across canada

Is it a profitable enough business?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

That's a great question. What is your marketing strategy? What is your production capacity?


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

brianshaw said:


> That's a great question. What is your marketing strategy? What is your production capacity?


Going to do interesting flavours that uncommon with shortbread cookies like add tea flavours, espresso, cheese, fruits, veggies, and spices combo

The cookies can pair up with tea, coffee and wine beverages..great as a host/ess gift to pair with the beverage

Hoping to get local wine, coffee, tea, cafe and gift shops to carry my cookies

Don't know if I want to do this aspect as well which is to make desserts using shortbread cookie dough and sell it to the public like shortbread jam bars, tarts out of it... which means more production and more people to hire

Don't know my production capacity


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Definitely profitable if your products taste good and you do everything else right. Shortbread can be made ahead and keeps for a long time so it's a lot easier to manage than, say, cakes. Walkers Shortbread company is a big hit worldwide.


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## Cdp (Aug 31, 2017)

here in Aust their is something called Byron bay cookies,

these guys charge a motza and guess what

there in every café across AUS

to be honest not that special but well marketed


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

Pat Pat said:


> Definitely profitable if your products taste good and you do everything else right. Shortbread can be made ahead and keeps for a long time so it's a lot easier to manage than, say, cakes. Walkers Shortbread company is a big hit worldwide.


Yes! Exactly ... way less food waste, less start up cost comparing to a cake business, less employees, less space require mean less rent

Will check out walkers



Cdp said:


> here in Aust their is something called Byron bay cookies,
> 
> these guys charge a motza and guess what
> 
> ...


Will check them out


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## Tom Caraher (Oct 12, 2017)

Qwertyuiop said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was thinking of doing a shortbread cookie company and was wondering it feasible to do it?
> 
> ...


I would suggest that the answer to your question on profit will be based on the complexity of your cookies and if they are unique enough to command a price with sufficient profit margin. If your shortbread cookies are decorated with royal icing and theme shapes which are sometimes called shortbread and also sugar cookies, the labor is hard to offset with price. You can check ETSY.com to see the multitudes of cookie shops for comparison purposes. Although you didn't specify the type of kitchen (commercial or residential), another consideration is the provincial regulatory scheme. In the states, some of the "cottage laws" regulate baked goods prepared in homes prohibit mailing. (The intent of those regulations is more friends and family business rather than wholesale) I hope this is helpful.


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

Tom Caraher said:


> I would suggest that the answer to your question on profit will be based on the complexity of your cookies and if they are unique enough to command a price with sufficient profit margin. If your shortbread cookies are decorated with royal icing and theme shapes which are sometimes called shortbread and also sugar cookies, the labor is hard to offset with price. You can check ETSY.com to see the multitudes of cookie shops for comparison purposes. Although you didn't specify the type of kitchen (commercial or residential), another consideration is the provincial regulatory scheme. In the states, some of the "cottage laws" regulate baked goods prepared in homes prohibit mailing. (The intent of those regulations is more friends and family business rather than wholesale) I hope this is helpful.


it unique enough just with my main basic dough because most shortbread cookies have more harder texture and flour tasting cookies where my cookies are the opposite that is more buttery and break down smoothly while eating it.

i'm not doing royal icing or theme shapes... most people I know told me that they don't care for it ... they like it straight up or eat it with their tea or coffee or offer a box of it as a gift

just simple circle shape cookies and different flavours for each one

I'm going to check with the government next monday regarding to the regulations and see what I can or can't do


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## granola girl (Mar 8, 2015)

I have a pastry chef in my cafe that will be making shortbread cookies. She mailed me some to try and they tasted great but didn't ship well. The raspberry jam in the centers all had "cookie dust" from the shipping on them. None of the cookies broke which was great. Probably cause she really packed them well. Put bubble wrap between the cookies and the container empty space so they wouldn't bounce around. These were just for me to taste so it was fine. They weren't being sold to customers.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Same here gg... not quite up to snuff so I backed off.
Everyone has at one point received one of those huge round tins of what I not so lovingly call fauxbread.
Those peeps have the art of shipping down to a T but it costs them in QC .
I don't trust a cookie that has no flavor except off white and NEVER breaks or crumbles.

Now if ya wanna make some real money do (here ya go Tom) cookie favors.
As big as your head and lovingly decorated.
The only product I ever made that came with the danger of blood clots in my legs from sitting too long.
My OCD was screaming for death to release me.

mimi


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Shipping across Canada.....

At some point you will realize that the costs associated with s&h ( packaging, 3rd parties like paypal or visa) will be greater than the actual costs of the product.
The money is in wholesale--either in food stores or in cafes. With stores you will need barcodes but have great long term relationships, with cafes you MUST do c.o.d. 
Choose your poison......


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

foodpump said:


> Shipping across Canada.....
> 
> At some point you will realize that the costs associated with s&h ( packaging, 3rd parties like paypal or visa) will be greater than the actual costs of the product.
> The money is in wholesale--either in food stores or in cafes. With stores you will need barcodes but have great long term relationships, with cafes you MUST do c.o.d.
> Choose your poison......


wholesale locally? basically do my own shipping and not use postal service?

I thought of wholesaling to coffee roasters/companies, tea, wine, cafes and independent gourmet food stores

how do you price out for wholesale because I know I have to sell it below retail price... or just compare to other local cookie business and see what they are selling it for.

but is it better to sell directly to customers with the higher profit margin even though I don't sell as many comparing to wholesale but it got smaller profit margin. Also with wholesale I have to make a lot more cookies to make up the difference and more expenses to pay employees when the business get bigger or can't handle the demand


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

You forgot to factor in the time to package those small orders and the hassle factor of getting them shipped, and getting paid. Each order.

You also forgot that your ingredients and packaging supplies become dramaticaly cheaper as your volume increases--especially packaging materials. 


Look, what's more important on your car, the gas guage, or the speedometer? For me its the gas guage.

Yes small personal orders are more profitable, but will you get orders enough to cover your costs?

Just because I only have 20 years experience running my own business doesn't mean I'm always right. But if you talk to any baker, (or anyone in business, actually) they will tell you the money is in wholesale. So if its money your after, focus on that. If its providng excellent customer service, focus on the small orders.

Hope thus helps,


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

foodpump said:


> You forgot to factor in the time to package those small orders and the hassle factor of getting them shipped, and getting paid. Each order.
> 
> You also forgot that your ingredients and packaging supplies become dramaticaly cheaper as your volume increases--especially packaging materials.
> 
> ...


right now I'm just starting small by renting a kitchen 2 or 3 days a week while I got my day job during the week

what is the difference between wholesale and direct sales for packaging?

I'm thinking of doing 12 small cookies in a heat sealed plastic bag and put it in a box

is wholesale like a big bag of cookies and put in a big cardboard box?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Difference is bar codes. No retail store will take new products without a barcode and a best before date. An ingredient list and nutritional table are also neccesary. Cheaper and less labour to have all that printed on the box than it is to apply stickers to the box. For a run of a thousand boxes, maybe 70 cents ea. For a run of 5000 or higher of the same boxes, maybe 20 cents ea.

How to price? Figure out your costs and mark up. No retail store will want your product if they can't mark up at least 35%, its a delicate balance....
Don't have anything nice to say about distributers, but they usually want their mark up of 30-40%

Hope this helps


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

foodpump said:


> Difference is bar codes. No retail store will take new products without a barcode and a best before date. An ingredient list and nutritional table are also neccesary. Cheaper and less labour to have all that printed on the box than it is to apply stickers to the box. For a run of a thousand boxes, maybe 70 cents ea. For a run of 5000 or higher of the same boxes, maybe 20 cents ea.
> 
> How to price? Figure out your costs and mark up. No retail store will want your product if they can't mark up at least 35%, its a delicate balance....
> Don't have anything nice to say about distributers, but they usually want their mark up of 30-40%
> ...


understandable on retail store situation... quite a bit of hurdles to go over

seem easier to deal local or small businesses to start like coffee roasters, tea, catering, wine people, restaurants etc

wow thats a major price difference on boxes... I was wondering if it look unprofessional by doing a clear plastic bag, heat seal it and stapled a fold over paper tag (business name, logo and flavour on the tag) on the excess plastic above the heat sealed line.

I found a rental kitchen, rate is $18/hr, dry storage $15/month and fridge storage $25/month .. in canadian currency


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Bags sre not a good idea. Cookies crumble and the crumbs will smear the bag. Also, you will observe many people poking and prodding your product through the packaging.

Cheapest option would be a clear clamshell type box, even clear beverage cups with dome. Next best would be kraft type cake boxes.

Smaller businesses are great to start off with, but they won't do a lot of volume.

Hope this helps


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

foodpump said:


> Bags sre not a good idea. Cookies crumble and the crumbs will smear the bag. Also, you will observe many people poking and prodding your product through the packaging.
> 
> Cheapest option would be a clear clamshell type box, even clear beverage cups with dome. Next best would be kraft type cake boxes.
> 
> ...


i don't know man ... hard to say no to the bags ... under 2 cents each

not a fan of clamshell or beverage cups because they don't have a tight seal to make the cookie shelf life lasts longer. I like to do the heat sealed bag at least for the shelf life and maybe do the kraft cake boxes depending on the price

was thinking something like this that I saw on the net ... https://www.elmhillcookies.com/shop/ ... I'm curious about that metal punched holes that hold the paper to the plastic bag.. what is it?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Rivets. Easily done with a pliars type tool.

Yes bags are cheap, but they offer no protection. And in any case you will need ones with a cardboard bottom so they sit stable, and those aren't 2 cents each.

Ah, nothing like the stench of the heat sealer and melting plastic in tbe early morning.....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Oh, heat sealing won't do anything for shelf life. They'll stale with or without a welded seal. Might help keeping odours and moisture from entering, but does nothing for shelf life.


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

foodpump said:


> Rivets. Easily done with a pliars type tool.
> 
> Yes bags are cheap, but they offer no protection. And in any case you will need ones with a cardboard bottom so they sit stable, and those aren't 2 cents each.
> 
> Ah, nothing like the stench of the heat sealer and melting plastic in tbe early morning.....





foodpump said:


> Oh, heat sealing won't do anything for shelf life. They'll stale with or without a welded seal. Might help keeping odours and moisture from entering, but does nothing for shelf life.


Ahh good to know on rivets... what about the kraft type paper fold over thing that got the info printed on? Name for it?

Lol ...hopefully you aren't getting high on the stench 

Oh I was a bit surprised on heat sealed and how it doesn't help with the shelf life.

I asked a cookie company about their shelf life and told me cookies with bacon lasts 6 months, savoury/cheese lasts 9 months and sweet lasts 13 months ...

Is that possible?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

This, just my own personal 2 cents and please take it with a grain of salt.
Currently, you don't really have a business, it's a hobby. I feel the first thing you should be addressing is your plan. Is this going to continue to be a hobby? Or do you wish to make it an all-in business for yourself.
The biggest obstacle you will encounter, is getting over that hump, transitioning from hobby to business. Here in the US, there are approximately 420,000 + people who attempt to jump that hurdle in retail food service. The stats show that about 5% of those make it, and of those 5%, 3% fail in the first year, and it's 50-50 as to whether the 2% remain successful. I'm somewhat knowledgeable on this because this is the reason for me leaving consulting.
My biggest nemesis was media and technology. Unrealistic food, DIY, etc. TV shows which a lot of viewers don't realize are scripted and usually present some downsides but end with success for that feel good moment. The moment that producers know will bring you back for more.
I could no longer be a part of the failure. Take the bakery shows. I've turned down more consulting than have taken. When vetting, I would encounter things like, total unawareness of business numbers-bookkeeping-P&L,COGS, etc. Production. and on and on. The worst being, not only taking the personal risk, but jeopardizing their own families by having supportive parents take second mortgages on their homes and things of this nature. Sorry, enough of that.
If you are serious about starting an actual business, you need to prepare your life to go in full force 24-7,the priorities at this point are not what audience you are going to address but to prepare and structure yourself to enter the business climate. I'm not saying that things you may not know about business, can't be outsource, but you have to have an understanding what they are doing for you. If your not good with numbers and you rely on a bookkeeper or accountant, that's fine. I will tell you that getting some business courses under your belt will help in the "anxious period". By that, I mean, that faction works on accumulation an generating numbers for a monthly report. For me personally, way to much stress for someone working 20 hrs. a day and having to the end of the month to hear."well, you made this amount of profit" or " These are your losses for the month".
Certainly not knocking remaining in the hobbyist world to generate some extra income.
Most of the world is reliant on packaging for nutritional info, freshness, ingredients, etc. Realistically, this is beneficial to you in the liability world. I personally can't follow the growing number of allergies, whether real or not.
If I was thinking about doing what your thinking about doing, I personally would focus on direct orders and not speculative. It's easier in the beginning. I would consider "wholesaling" of what you're doing, as boxed with multiple packaged products. Manufacturing permits in some countries will consider this wholesale and let you ship across some borders with your item just packaged and the SKU/bar code, ingredients, etc. just printed on the box. Most requiring a stamp "Not for Resale"
Target audience. I'll mention one that requires, putting on the sneakers, and presenting your product to buyers. I have had quite a bit of success with the hard copy and online gift catalogs. This is less stressful in the beginning because of the up-front orders. Similar to a country club budget that is member driven. You have your revenue established for that account. Then formulate your budget, than your worries are production/labor related and not retail. This way is a bit easier, but! there is no room for complacency. If your product does well, you need to prepared to fill 1X, 5X, 10X, plus on the next order.
For the hobbyist this will let you have time to recoup if you should decide to go seasonal. Especially if you retain your original employment or have family.
AGAIN: Just my 2 cents and apologize for the length. Sometimes I think I can truly feel interest in someone. So, I assume the boy scout posture and try to help someone across the street.
Best of luck to you in you venture.
PS. Just me now. But I have three rules should someone deciding to make the jump into business. *1.* If needing capital, *don't use your own money or someone you know*. *2.* *Pay yourself* from day one. *3.* *Flexibility*. You could spend a year on a concept for a brownie business. Then you open the doors and everyone is asking for lemon squares. You better accept, you are now in the lemon square business.


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

panini said:


> This, just my own personal 2 cents and please take it with a grain of salt.
> Currently, you don't really have a business, it's a hobby. I feel the first thing you should be addressing is your plan. Is this going to continue to be a hobby? Or do you wish to make it an all-in business for yourself.
> The biggest obstacle you will encounter, is getting over that hump, transitioning from hobby to business. Here in the US, there are approximately 420,000 + people who attempt to jump that hurdle in retail food service. The stats show that about 5% of those make it, and of those 5%, 3% fail in the first year, and it's 50-50 as to whether the 2% remain successful. I'm somewhat knowledgeable on this because this is the reason for me leaving consulting.
> My biggest nemesis was media and technology. Unrealistic food, DIY, etc. TV shows which a lot of viewers don't realize are scripted and usually present some downsides but end with success for that feel good moment. The moment that producers know will bring you back for more.
> ...


no apology on the length, it was a good read and got some good advices

I have a business administration - marketing education along with my culinary education as well so I know I don't need courses.

I'm planning to do a trial run by making samples and give to potential local businesses that would carry my cookies and see if they are interested or got any feedback on them. I just starting very small because I will still be working at my current job and rent the kitchen a couple days a week to make the cookies and just slowly build up.

If the feedback from local businesses are great but not ordering a huge amount then I might just do farmer market/ trade shows and direct sales as a side business. I found out that I can make things at home and sell it at farmer's market or trade shows no problems but I can't sell to businesses that will resell them.

Do you think shortbread cookies is not a viable enough business? Do you think there are better items?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Qwertyuiop said:


> Do you think shortbread cookies is not a viable enough business? Do you think there are better items?


Why do I get the feeling you woke one morning and while brushing your teeth decided to go into the cookie business?
"What kind of cookie?" you mumbled to the mirror (through a mouthful of toothpaste foam).
You went online and ignoring the thousands of bakers offering this very product, decided on shortbread (altho now it seems you don't really care what the product is).
While it is true the collective knowledge on CT is vast it is still up to you to do the footwork because this is the one thing we cannot do for you.

This is my advice.... rent the space and get the permits taken care of because the winter holidays are upon us.
Find some recipes that don't take a lot of skill to execute , cost them out (some you can do by weight others by dozen counts) and sell yourself as an expert in "thank you for your business" gift boxes.
While you are there take orders from employees who don't have time to bake but like the idea of food gifts.
This last category will most likely pass your work off as their own but no biggie because a sale is a sale is a sale.

mimi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Qwertyuiop ,
I usually refrain from posting to a thread like yours. It very difficult to offer anything without someones background. I did somehow pick on the interest you had . The reasoning for my words.
I'm aware that someone without even quasi business knowledge usually will read my posts as negative. I'm now glad I posted.
On the shortcake cookies. By using a method of process of elimination ( whether normal or maybe in some type of convoluted way) you've identified these cookies as your interest. And if making these cookies is something that makes you happy or gives you pleasure when you receive good comments on them, then I think you have your answer on what to focus on. There is no person or indicators to say what type of product to make.
Your background tells you that the product is not your business, it's how you adapt your business around it that will make it profitable. I personally feel the old time standards have good potential, especially when successful chefs are bending tradition and actually taking quite a few traditional Tea and Dessert or (sweet side) items and bringing them over to the savory side. (hot side).
I would still classify you in the hobby aspect of business. Absolutely, nothing wrong with that. It provides you time for R&D and allows you to structure the business ahead of time. Take your education and use it. Be disciplined and devote allotted time to structuring your business as if it has already scaled. Even if it's a farmers market weekend. Develop you accounting and administration systems and use them if even on a small scale.
I can rattle names, one right after the other, of hard working creative people, who have developed some truly great items. Then leaped from hobby right into business without having developed a business infrastructure. The common scenario is that they enjoy great success in the beginning, but are flying by the seat of their pants, and almost all have failed, or had to considerably reduce their profit to bring someone on board. This is sad, because that person usually become an employee of their own business and not an owner. The simple fact is, that when scaling begins and your not prepared structurally, you can't go back and get it done.
I've been around for quite a few years. Still have a core business of 19 yrs. and have been able to be involved in 4 start-ups, all outside our industry. 3 quite successful to which I participate in 2 daily and the 4th a bust.(no monetary loss, just in with a group who wanted to listen to outside financial advice that lead to me refusing to enter into a partnership).
I just try to pass on experiences. I am still learning every day. I can say with confidence, I have made just about all the mistakes and stumbles, one can make, coming up. If offering my experiences can help someone circumvent just one stumble, it makes me happy.
Again, best of luck,
I make myself available to you always, PM anytime.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi qwerty,

You have recieved some excellent advice, and you're smart enough to listen to it--others on this site have not been so smart.

One of the best things to prepare you for your own business is to work for others for a while. From one employer I got exposure and experience making 1000's of cookies using a sheeter and stencil cutter, from another, how valuable the time to read a lease and get a lawyer to read a lease is, from another the perks and pitfalls of ordering packaging locally vs. overseas, from yet another, how to aproach retailers, and still yet another, why distibuters usually aren't a good idea.

One of your biggest challenges has nothing to do with cookies, it will be finding a lender, and convincing that lender to loan you the money. Thats an acid test if there ever was one.


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## azenjoys (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi - @panini - would you mind talking a little more about 'developing business infrastructure' as one moves from hobby business to business-business? That phrase really jumped out at me as I'm just at that stage in my business's development and am really trying to create effective, scaleable systems as I start to grow. Thanks!


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## Qwertyuiop (Oct 9, 2017)

panini said:


> Qwertyuiop ,
> I usually refrain from posting to a thread like yours. It very difficult to offer anything without someones background. I did somehow pick on the interest you had . The reasoning for my words.
> I'm aware that someone without even quasi business knowledge usually will read my posts as negative. I'm now glad I posted.
> On the shortcake cookies. By using a method of process of elimination ( whether normal or maybe in some type of convoluted way) you've identified these cookies as your interest. And if making these cookies is something that makes you happy or gives you pleasure when you receive good comments on them, then I think you have your answer on what to focus on. There is no person or indicators to say what type of product to make.
> ...


Thank you ... I appreciated this post

Initially I was planning to do a full blown pastry shop but after checking out the major start up cost, managing, production of different things, food waste, suppliers, employees, sacrificing life outside of the pastry shop and other things ... higher the risk, the higher the money that I will lose if the business crash and burn.

I always want to do a business so I got to adapt to something else and thought I would do the shortbread cookie and go from there by doing sweet flavours with chocolate espresso, vanilla bean, chai tea and gingerbread for the holidays and do small Xmas gift basket with in the cookies in a coffee mug. Also hopefully expand over time and do savoury flavours involving cheese flavour combos.

Yeah you are correct that some businesses can expand prematurely. I remember a small culture grocery store was making money like crazy and the owner decided to expand and get a bigger space. I'm guessing he was expecting more customers to make up the difference and cover additional expenses like salary and utilities bills and ultimately the business close down like a year later. A culture grocery store is niche concept and only appeal to certain demographic. If it was the similar amount of customers from the small space to the big space. he should have never expanded, I guess his greed got the best of him or he didn't planned correctly.

Oh wow, I'm impressed for having multiple businesses...What other non-food businesses do you have?

I will definitely pm if I got any questions or need advices



foodpump said:


> Hi qwerty,
> 
> You have recieved some excellent advice, and you're smart enough to listen to it--others on this site have not been so smart.
> 
> ...


Definitely got some great advices

It tough to find a business in where I live to work for a business does wholesaling because every job I worked during my 10 years in the food service, I have never dealt in wholesaling or dealing with businesses directly. It one of the reasons why I came here..to get people experiences or advices dealing with wholesale or direct business/retail.

Yeah I agree that distributors aren't good choice, they got to do a mark up and the businesses get the products from the distributior also got to do a mark up which means eating at my profits.

Actually I can probably find my business out of my own money, I currently have like 70k cash, it might make the lender easier to approve it. I know some people always say don't spend your money to fund the business, use the bank money.


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