# wild yeast? starters? What is a good plan of action?



## fontzmark (Aug 13, 2000)

I was wondering if anyone has a working plan for making bread daily using a starter? I have been researching this a lot lately and want to start making my own starter without using commercial yeast. Can anyone explain the process.....how much to use for actual bread making....how much and when to feed it....how and where to store it. I kinda have a plan, but would like to hear from some people who actually do it everday and know what they are doing.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I highly recommend Nancy Silverton's Bread book. There is an excellent starter in there, that uses grapes, flour, and water. There is also a detailed explanation of the process.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I found Peter Reinhart's Crust and Crumb to be a good source. I read Silverton's chapter on starting a starter and got way too confused. Reinhart's uses organic raisins, organic whole wheat flour, and spring water. After a couple of days you can wean it onto conventional bread flour. Mine is now almost two years old and will survive months in the refrigerator and yet will wake up quickly with just a couple of feedings. My starter at work sits all winter and is still viable comr spring.I make this bread, he calls it barm, a lot during the country club season and it's very easy to get into a rhythym of making a leaven sponge, feeding the starter and taking yesterday's leaven sponge to make a dough for tomorrow's bread and baking the dough you made yesterday. I always retard the bread because I like the little blisters on the crust. Daniel Wing's book The Bread Builder's also has a lot of info about what's going on in the starter culture.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

When Nancy Silverton did an appearance on Master Chefs with Julia Child on PBS, think it was in 1993, I tried her method. My starter is about 7 years old and still ticking.

Of course, I was compelled to purchase her book "Breads from the La Brea Bakery" published later, in 1996.

Can't help but strongly recommend Nancy Silverton for this. I found her explanations quite clear. But of course, I had taped the show some years earlier, which helped a lot too!

[ March 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

It doesn't really matter what medium you use to get the organisms to get the culture going, I guess. Grapes, or raisins, as long as you understand what's going on in the culture and can manipulate it to get the results you want and that work fits into your day. Reinhart's method is elegantly simple. I found Silverton's to be too complex for my ADD-addled brain. And the point about the culture surviving 4 or months neglected is that once established, they are almost impossible to kill. If you have a good strong culture it will take care of you.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My breadbaking experience started by using the book entitled ULTIMATE BREAD by Treuille and Ferrigno. Very simply laid out, very easy to understand. They took the 1, 2, 3 approach: 1 cup of water, 2 tsps of yeast and 3 cups of flour for nearly all of their recipes. Each one involves using a starter, called a poolish. Very good book that includes instructive photos, too. 

[ March 15, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BigHat:

I'm on the verge of purchasing ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA. The book gives directions on making starters. Are those directions on starters adequate for this budding bread baker?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I think Peter Reinhart's book Crust and Crumb is better for sourdough, but I've made a lot of breads from Artisan Breads and her instructions are great. She does tell you how to convert a refrigerated sourdough culture to her formulas. But Reinhart has an elegantly simple method of growing one that takes less than a week.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Yes, you can feed it twice a day instead of three times. Then, keep in the fridge until you are ready to use.

Remember, you can also dry it, store it and revive it again. I think it's also explained in the book.

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Thanx Kimmie  
One more question (for now), If I use a cup of the starter and I relace it with 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of water, can i just stir it into the remaining starter and return it to the fridge?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Hi KyleW,

No. Just leave in it in the fridge, well covered.

Before using your starter again to make more bread, it is a good idea to give it the full 3-day feeding schedule to strenghten it and to tone down excess sourness. It is then ready to use.

So, three days before you plan to make bread, and since you may have only 1 cup of starter left, you will proceed as follows:

*Day one:* Feed your starter with ½ cup of water (tepid) and ½ cup of white bread flour, blending well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up - 3 or 4 hours - then cover and refrigerate.

*Day two:* Repeat the feeding, this time adding 1 cup of water (tepid) and 1 cup of white bread flour, blending well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up - 3 or 4 hours - then cover and refrigerate.

*Day three:* Repeat the feeding (adding 1 cup of water (tepid) and 1 cup of white bread flour) and blend well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up - 3 or 4 hours - then cover and refrigerate.

*Day four:* Take your starter out of the refrigerator and let it come to room temperature. Then you can start your bread.

Store the rest of your starter in a tightly covered container where it will keep perfectly 4 to 6 months - after which time it is a good idea to pour off all but 2 cups and give it another feeding.

NOTE: Always bring the starter to room temperature before using.

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I think I got it. Refeed the whole thing, use what you need and refridgerate the res. The next time, repeat the whole process.\
Thankx Kimmie


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kimmie: is it okay to do your procedure in a Mason jar with the top ajar while bubbling?

Is it okay to store the starter in a Mason jar tightly closed?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Koko,

Never used a Mason jar for this. Aren't you afraid it will explode?

I know, I know...don't laugh at me!

Seriously though, I use a plastic tupperware style jar.

*KyleW* Right on!

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Yeah, I'd stay away from tight glass jars, myself!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

It sounds like t'ware is the way to go. A plastic container will allow excess pressure to bleed rather than explode. 

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I just finished reading Nancy Silverton's section on making a starter, in Breads From the La Brea Bakery. During the feeding stage, which for her is days 10-14, she says it has to be fed 3 times/day. That I have the inclination to attempt this indicates that I have no life. I do have a job, however. What would happen if I fed it twice/day? Also, Once it's a starter, can I store it in the fridge and resuscitate what I need by feedig it a day or so in advance?
Thanks

Kyle


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

With experience, you'll come up with your own plan of action but here's a way to start Saturday and have fresh, fabulous bread for Sunday.

This one comprises two different starters.

*Day One*
_11 A.M._
Make the first starter
Let rise for 8 hours

_7 P.M._
Make the second starter
Let rise 4 hours
Chill 8 hours

*Day Two*
_7 A.M._
Mix the final dough
First rise 1 1/2 hours

_9:30 A.M._
Shape the dough
Final rise 1 1/2 hours

_12:00 NOON_
Bake the loaves

I work too, I also have a life and I make time for bread...


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

My bread baking, and making time for it, comes in waves. It's all or nothing at all! I just ordered a bag of 12.7% protien flour form King Arthur. As soon as it arrives I'm jumping in with both feet. I'm also taking a three day bread baking course next month. I'm taking 3 Mondays off and the class is from 10-4. I'm like a little kid before Christmas !

Thanx for your guidence Kimmie!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

KyleW:

I order some things from KA. However, save yourself some shipping by checking out the local gourmet or health food stores. I'm sure that one of them carries a variety of KA flour and other excellent brands.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

You're welcome, KyleW!

You'll see, class is fun. Keep us posted, but don't go postal...


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Living here in Gotham City I can get KA flour at several different places. None of them have the high protien (12.7%) KA Special. I can get the AP (11.7%) and the 14% Hi-Gluten but not the one in the middle. Besides ordering from the website gives me the opportunity to buy many other things I do not need and would not schlep home from the store. This time it was two rising baskets, a 5QT ceramic mixing bowl and a lame 

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kyle, I just verified at the KA website that the 12.7% flour is the KA Bread Flour aka Special For Bread Machines Flour. Read the label on the side of the package for protein content to verify. I get my KA bread flour locally, so can you.

I'm a bit of a miser so will search locally to save S&H.

Should you take to breadmaking, you'll get a Kitchen Aid mixer before long.
  

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I am more likely to try and save time rather than S&H 

RE:Kitchen Aid - Dig back through the Kitchen Counsel archives @Epicurious. When you (under a different alias) were on your quest I am among those who raved about Kitchen Aid mixers. I've had mine for nearly 10 years and wouldn't live without it 

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

You are so lucky to be able to order from KA. They won't deliver here!!

make me sooooooooo envious, KyleW!!!

Do they carry rising baskets for "Couronnes"?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I'm not sure what "Couronnes" is/are but they do have lots of toys. Why won't they ship to Canada? You're closer to them than I am! I don't have a wife or kids so I console myself by buying toys


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kimmie:

Someone in one of these threads posted a Canadian site that offered a variety of baking equipment. You'll need to do a search.

Otherwise, go to google.com and conduct a search there.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thanks Koko.

KyleW,

"Crown" in english. It's like a huge donut!
My very favorite shape for bread. Do you have a copy of "Baking with Julia"? see Steve Sullivan, one of the featured bakers.

and "Why no delivery in Canada"? They're probably not interested in the paperwork that would be involved. It's not the distance, it's a different country.



[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I have the book @home. I'll check it out. They have no such rising vessels @KA.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

OMG, KyleW,

Lucky you! The action plan I posted previously is from Steve Sullivan. I made his recipe a few times and I must tell you that I really liked it. Try'n plan to make a pizza first, saving a little bit of dough for the first starter. Then follow the recipe...and look at the pics in the book. I'm sure you've seen his "couronne" anyway.

BTW, have you ever tried Danielle Forestier's French baguette? I did, all by hand! You might want to attack that beast after your classes!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

Went at Barnes & Nobles (on the net) and found the following, pursuant to *thebighat's* comment on "Crust & Crumb".

Go here for more

It's a little treasure!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Crust and Crumb is more than a little treasure. I bought a lot of bread books that made not much sense. But when I started making breads from crust and crumb I really learned something. Made the Royal Crown Tortano from Artisan Baking today. I didn't cut one before I left work, but they looked beautiful.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

All right already  
I just bought it


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Hope you didn't feel we were ganging-up on you! Because it wasn't the case!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Phew! For a minute there I thought I was being made to do things against my will 
 

As I said before, It's all or nothing with me. I am now on a wild yeast mission!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Terrific. Now come back to us in a week with the demeanor of a frightened, penitent sinner, with gorgeous loaves of barm in your arms, and all will be forgiven. Trust me.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

If I get Crust & Crumb tomorrow it will be a week. If I use Nancy Silverton's method it will take two. In either case i will be penitent and I have always been a sinner.

I really and truly appreciate all the information and encouragement I get here


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

> ]*wild yeast mission...* [/QUOTE
> 
> Now that's pretty funny KyleW!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Just be aware that the first loaf of barm you bake from Reinhart's book is only a hint of what that bread can be when the refrigerated starter is mature. I made a sponge today from mine that tripled in three hours. Talk about active. Another book with a lot of info--The Bread Builders by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Thanks TBH. I had to leave the office before the book arrived. An=ti-ci-pa-aa-tion, it's makin' me wait....


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I'm in love again...with Steve Sullivan.

I had a long weekend in front of me and all this talk about bread...I made a pizza Saturday and kept a piece of dough for Sullivan's first starter.

Everything worked according to plan, by golly at noon yesterday I was putting my beautiful "couronne" in the oven. And 45 minutes later came out a picture perfect 2 pounder couronne, with it's pearl necklace on top. When the loaf came out of the oven, it still had little crackling sounds. This one is not actually mine but sure looked like it.










And the crumb? Creamy white with large irregular holes.

I had tried this recipe a couple of years earlier and it hadn't turned out so well.

The conditions were probably just perfect, my kitchen was at 84 degrees!

That was such a satisfying experience. Thanks Steve Sullivan for sharing such a gorgeous recipe. I had a wonderful weekend!

 

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## plum (Mar 17, 2001)

Pleased it went so well, Kimmie!

You all might enjoy reading and article by Jeffrey Steingarten "J..S..goes on a year long quest for the primal bread" in Vogue, November 1990, which I just read in the Penguin Book of Food & Drink, Ed. Paul Levy. It's an entertaining account of his voyage from Mess "sizzling and seething over the stove and running into those little holes in the gas burners" to Bliss "Most days the bread is more than good enough to eat, and some days it is so good that we eat nothing else".


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

When are your classes starting, KyleW?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The following Monday, July 9th, if The Good Lord's willin' and the creek don't rise


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Lucky you. My classes were so much fun, I wish yours will be that way too!

Where?? What school?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

My classes are for 3 consecutive Mondays from 10-4. They are being conducted @America's favorite cooking school (professional and otherwise) 
Peter Kump's New York Cooking School!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Wow, you will have a great time and wonderful learning experience. It won't take _ALL_ the mysteries out but will give you self-assurance coupled with the urge to experiment...as if you didn't have that yet with your "wild yeast mission" quest!

I wish you started a new topic to share your experience after your classes...


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The Steingarten Treatise on wild yeast is truly hysterical. In the bread section of Nick Malgieri's "How to Bake" he cites Steingarten as his source for things related to wild yeast and sourdough.

I have all of the ingredients assembled. I have "Crust & Crumb" in hand. All I need now is the time. Monday I will have the requisite 7 days in a row, at home, to begin my first wild yeast adventure!

Film @11!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Look at what I found, thanks to thebighat:

The Care and Feeding of Sourdough Starters

Enjoy!


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Cool link!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I found that site the other night. All I can say is compare Kyle's FIRST loaf of bread to the one this guy pictures. Who had better oven bang? Who probably had better fermentation going on up to 138 degrees? Kyle's FIRST loaf is better looking than this guy's.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Yep. So true.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Yea Me! Thanx TBH


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Kokopuffs

I just thought you could cover the jar with a double layer of cheesecloth, secured with an elastic band. Then use the cover when you put the jar in the fridge.

Especially if you put your jar outside?



[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Okay Kimmie:

The feeling I get is if the starter is at room temperature, leave the lid ajar. If refirgerated, then keep tightly closed.

Having no experience with this process (it'll change soon), Tupperware containers still sound good to me.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I don't know from nuthin' but...

Both Frank and Ernest were kept in fairly constant temp ([email protected], [email protected]) completely closed. Frank with Saran wrap and Enest in a ClikClak container. Submitted FYI.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

That's perfect KyleW. I followed same method as you for Ernest.

Actually, Koko and I were talking about hazardous glass jars. I'm not sure I would feel all that comfortable with glass jars.


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