# Stock Making Debate



## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

Our Exec and our Sous are in a rather heated debate over how to make stock. Our Exec makes his stocks the way I learned in school, roasting the bones in the oven. He claims our Sous Chef's way merely "sears" the bones and does not really extract as much flavor from them as roasting them in an oven does. Its pretty obvious whose way reigns supreme, but I was wondering if anyone else has heard of the style of stock our Sous makes.

Our Sous roasts the bones (chicken or veal) in the big tilt griddle that we have with a little oil. He adds mirepoix and tomato paste and continues to roast everything together. After deglazing with a little burgandy and water, he scrapes the bottom of the skillet clean with a giant metal spatula, adds his sachets, and then fills the entire tilt griddle with ice (close to 5 standard size ice pails).

His reasoning for the ice is that supposedly colder water extracts gelatinous material from the bones better, and you can't get much colder than ice. His reasoning for roasting the bones in the pan is that you don't lose any precious fond when transferring bones from a roasting pan to the kettle since everything done within the skillet.

Opinions? I'm not looking to prove either boss wrong, I was just curious to see if anyone else has heard of methods like this.


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## fryguy (Sep 2, 2009)

I don't know it sounds like he just wants to do every thing in one skillet. Sounds to me like thats a pretty tiddy way to do it, and if you went about it the right way you would end up with a good stock. But I'll bet the chefs stock is better. I think the sous being lazy. Maybe he's burned a few batches bones....


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Most kitchens have two ironclad rules:

1. The Chef may not always be right, but the Chef is NEVER wrong!

2. If you think the Chef is wrong, see Rule 1!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If I had th luxury of a tilt skillet, I'd use it over the stock pot.

The roasting is only to develop flavour, doesn't matter if you do it in an oven or a skillet.

"Lazy" is a cruel word. "Practical" or "Smart" sounds better. Heaving all those bones in and out of the oven, pouring off fat, balancing the pan on arack in order to stir around th mire-poix, putting the pans back in again--it does get dangerous and quite time consuming.

(I unceremoniously "Dump" the whole pan of bones from the oven on to the flat-top. Then with tongs I pick up all the bones and toss them back in pan. The fat stays on the flat-top where I scrape it down the glory-hole. This method trumps any other method that involves dumping the pan over a collander to drain off fat--It's very hard to control especially if you're alone. It is VERY important to pour off fat, if it accumulates t stinks up the whole oven (and kitchen) and can taint the stock. The fond that develops either stays in the roasting pan or on the bones)


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## adaml (Sep 23, 2009)

My chef once told a reporter "Oh no, you've got it wrong. "Chef" is spelled g, o, d."


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## fryguy (Sep 2, 2009)

(I unceremoniously "Dump" the whole pan of bones from the oven on to the flat-top. Then with tongs I pick up all the bones and toss them back in pan. The fat stays on the flat-top where I scrape it down the glory-hole. This method trumps any other method that involves dumping the pan over a collander to drain off fat--It's very hard to control especially if you're alone. It is VERY important to pour off fat, if it accumulates t stinks up the whole oven (and kitchen) and can taint the stock. The fond that develops either stays in the roasting pan or on the bones)[/QUOTE]

does'nt sound like a very safe pratice to me.......just sayin'.....fire hazard :smoking:


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are many ways to getting a right result and both methods have merit in my opinion. I normally prefer to sear and "roast" bones in the same vessel as the stock pot too, so as not to lose any fond. However, the veal bones we use at the restaurant are shaped strangely so it's ard to get a good browning on them on a flat surface; the oven gets all parts of the surface brown.

As for the merits of starting in warm vs. cold water and the merits of extracting more flavour and gelatin from certain methods of cooking... well, that is for the scientists to help us discover. Personally I think it has roots in the 'searing seals in the juices' fable as well. However, it has been shown that certain things such as starting in cold vs. hot water has had no noticable effect on flavour and the extracting of bulk matter from the meat/bones, especially with the cooking time of a veal stock being so long. I like to use cold water because I don't trust what sort of crap that is in the hot water at home and that goes through the pipes at work.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

How a fire hazzard?


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## pembroke (Sep 26, 2009)

When you use ice to start a stock instead of hot water, the fat that raises to the top of the stock for skimming tends to be easier to skim (larger pools of fat versus many small pools). 
I make jus with veal bones and calves feet, we place the bones in cold water and bring to the simmer, then drain the bones in a colander, wash with cold water and return to a clean pan, this gets rid of the scum from the bones. We then simmer 6 hours with veg and tomato paste, no wine or alcohol. We pass the stock and retain the bones. We cover the cooked bones in water and simmer for another six hours (water and bones only). We pass the second "stock", marry with the first and reduce. This stock is versatile because it does not contain pork (pig trotters) or alcohol making it easier when dealing with various dietary requirements. We DO NOT roast the veal bones; lamb and chicken bones etc yes, veal no.
The finished product is easily adaptable by adding wine, brandy, Madeira etc. (we all know how to suck eggs). We adopted this recipe from the French Laundry cookbook.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

The answer here seems to lie in the final outcome. Is there a difference in tast or quality of either or which tast better. As far as procedure, both will work. I think adding 100 ice is going a bit overboard as he is not making consomme here. Cold water will suffice in a stock be it poultry or meat or fish. I am sure both gentlemen have been doing this with success for years so I say ""If it aint broke, don't fix it""


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## chefray (Sep 29, 2009)

Just teach him the simple phrase, "How would you like that prepared, Chef?" and his life will be so much easier. :smoking:


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

You're allowed to debate things in the kitchen, as long as you ultimately do it the way the chef wants it.


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

i have only made stock by roasting bones, i have never attempted or even thought of making stock with seared bones or anything similar. classic is best and just to reiterate what everyone else said... chef rules. once youre up there you can make your own decisions, but do as the chef says and youll be chef one day, try to go your own route and youll find yourself working in many kitchens but never getting further than that.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I've heard of making it both ways and I prefer roast the bones when I make stock but that is just my choice. As it's been said here... the Chef is the Chef and ultimately it is his kitchen so things will be done his way and the sous needs to follow his lead even if he doesn't agree with it.


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## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

it sounds like the sous is making a mistaken understanding of a volute.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Chris, I think in most applications a Veloute is white.


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## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

Quite right chef- hence the mistaken understanding! :lol:

...I'm sorry, I don't make jokes very often for this reason alone!


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## mike8913 (Mar 22, 2008)

I think the sous is trying to be a bit more organized and clean, however his method wastes time and perhaps does not get enough colour on the bones. Roasting is always going to more consistent and at the end of the day you don't need some one constantly watching them in the oven, just checking periodically. More importantly, searing them makes you liable to add some burnt bits of miropoix or paste which wouldn't do much for your flavor or clarity.

I think the sous has good intentions but he's trying to be too creative.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a tilt braiser and it never occurred to me to use it like this. It seems like more work than roasting bones. When I run into a situation like this I let my guys show me their way. In this case we would do a blind taste test. If they can show me they can produce a better stock with out a lot more work then I'm good with that. The last thing I want to do is dissuade my guys from thinking. If the results are the same and it takes more work then it's back to the oven and the steam kettle.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

Thanks for the input guys. I was just curious of what feedback I would get on this one.

For the record, we do it the Chef's way, there is obiously no other way in his kitchen. We are allowed to debate things as previously mentioned here, we just better be certain we know what were talking about.

We made 1/2 a batch of bones Chef's way yesterday. I'm gonna see if we can make the other 1/2 the Sous' way and compare the two. I agree that this is probably the only way to settle the debate.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Ras.....The Chef side of me would say the debate was settled when the Chef explained how "HE" makes the stock but the human side of me understands the reason behind a comparison. Just make sure you are dealing with the Human side and not the Chef side of your Chef when you present Him with that comparison.  :thumb:


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Hear hear, in the modern kitchen the chef's word is still law, but a chef who closes himself from opinions is shutting himself from a valuable resource.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

That is PRICELESS!!!!


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## sabbah (Jun 2, 2009)

You have a tilt skillet? 

In all seriousness, what else do you use it for?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

What do I use a tilt skillet for?

-Soups, very easy o do Fr. Onion in one

-Stews, of corse, the best thing for it.

-Done lots of srambled eggs in it or B'fast buffets and the like

-Poached a lot of whole samon and coils and coils of snausages in it

-Frying burgers, pork chops.

-Even done deep frying in it.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I never thought about using it as a deep fryer... wow, this is why I love posting/reading here.

This Sous Chef has left the kitchen.  Our Chef clarified on how he would like his stocks made with that nice smile of victory on his face.


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## beestings (Oct 24, 2010)

I think its worth pointing out from previous experience that the addition of tomato paste degrades the final texture if the the stock is being reduced to glace. Its for this reason that I avoid using tomato paste in this recipe. 

Heres how I do it

Roast Bones 2 1/2 hours, roast mirepoix separately, 3/4 hour. put in a stock pot. Cold water, skim. Bring to a simmer. Add garni, peppercorns, thyme, bay,garlic. simmer gently for 48 hours. Remove bones, pass - chill, remove unwanted fat on surface. From there I usually reduce to red win jus/glace so in another pot sweat mirepoix(with shallot), garlic, thyme, good quality red wine, reduce to 20%, add the beef stock, reduce by half, pass through a chinois, reduce until consistency is acheived. Box it away for use.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree with both methods. The Sous is modern in approach but works, as does the chefs. In cooking if the final product is good and acceptable to public, then in reality there is no right or wrong. However the right or wrong in most cases is when you take the name of a classic dish and serve something like it.. Example I just took a cruise they called grilled Filet Mignon with an asparagus on top A La Rossinni. This is wrong as the dish is traditionaly served with either a Slice or Rosette of Pate d' foi gras on top.


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## alexlewis (Oct 25, 2010)

I completely disagree with the searing method. You will never get an even color on the bones and will probably have some burning which will give your stock a bitterness. Also, you waste time tending to the bones instead of cutting your veg while they roast, which is obviously more time efficient.

Where I work, we do no roast or blanch the bones because that's the way the chef wants it done. I keep my mouth shut. The bones should either be roasted or blanched. Why? To remove surface impurities which will give you a clearer stock. The choice to roast or blanch will depend on the end. A roasted bones will give a darker and more complex tasting stock thanks to the Maillard reaction. Blanched bones are good for a white veal stock. My sous-chef claims that roasting the bones yields a bitter taste...to which I replied, ''only if they're burnt".

As for the hot/cold start debate, cold is the only way to go. "A hot start produces many separate protein particles that remain suspended and cloud the stock" - Harold McGee *On food and Cooking. *A cold start will allow all the free particles to rise to the surface which can be skimmed off. It is also equally important never to cover a stock because it prevents boiling(which will cloud the stock) and also allows the surface particles to dry out making it easier to skim. Adding ice cubes to a stock has a similar clarifying effect. To make it easier to skim, you can put the pot only half way on the burner so the scum will tend to gather only on one side of the pot. I would also advise to add the vegetables only after skimming a few times, it will make it way easier. I read somewhere that to have the clearest stock possible, it should be brought to a simmer as slowly as possible.

For the vegetables, they can also be roasted, or not. It always depends on what you want your end result to be. For example, you wouldn't roast vegetables for a white stock. Similarly, tomato paste is only added to brown stock because it would give white stock an undesirable color. However, tomato paste, or another acidic component is very important because acid helps dissolve connective tissue which will give your stock more body(gelatine). Beware, too much tomato paste will cloud the stock.

I have read that vegetables also give out most of their flavor after 45mins - an hour. After that, the cell walls break down, the vegetables turn to much and clouds the stock and also adds a slight bitterness. But I have never seen anyone add vegetables to a stock during the last hour of cooking...

Maybe I'm looking too much into this stock making process, but never forget that it's the base for so many culinary preparations and without quality ingredients, you will never make quality food.

A quality stock should be evaluated on four things:

Clarity
Flavor
Aroma
Body
I hope some of this information will be helpful to all of you. Bon courage!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

In many cases the first simmer or boil is discarded so as to rid the bones of outer garbage, and bones are not roasted for a white stock of any kind, be it poultry, beef or veal. If you keep cooking a white based stock it will turn darker and flavor will be more intense.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

HomeCook, are you aware that you are posting in a forum for professional only??


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## danvis65 (Nov 16, 2010)

I subscribe to the roasting method. As many have stated here you get an even browning. Once the bones have browned nicely I add a full Mire poix and roast until carmelized. I then add the tomato paste and toss the bones to get a somewhat even coating and let brown a bit more. I drain off the fat that has been rendered and reserve for Roux. I'll remove the bones, then deglaze the roasting pan/s with red wine. Everything into either the steam kettle or the Swiss/Tilt skillet, which ever I won't be needing in the time it takes to simmer the stock. I always use cold water to start the simmer process. It helps to end with a clear versus cloudy stock. Not sure of the science behind it but it does work.


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## prairiechef (May 22, 2010)

Put bones in roasting pan.

Roast until nicely caramelized.

remove. leaving fat in pan

add mirepoix,

roast until starting to caramelize

add tomato product.

roast til caramelized

dump all into stock pot,leaving spigot open to let fat run out (and be collected)

close spigot.

deglaze roaster on rangetop, leaving no fond in pan.

add to stock pot

add cold water, bring to simmer.

if it never comes to a rolling boil, there will not be an issue with cloudiness.

The fat will separate and rise to the top when the stock cools.

Dead simple. It works and it works well.

Using a tilt skillet... the heat comes from one place... the skillet. Bones are not flat. They will not contact the surface of the skillet evenly and therefore will not caramelize as well. Period.

Cold water does not aid in extracting gelatin, cooking does. Cold water prevents the impurites and proteins from coagulating too quickly and clouding the stock. The water heats slowly, and the impurites rise to the surface. Ice is unnecessary.  

I would love to see the stocks side by side. I'd bet a pint that the roasted stock has better colour and flavour.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2010)

danvis65 said:


> I subscribe to the roasting method. As many have stated here you get an even browning. Once the bones have browned nicely I add a full Mire poix and roast until carmelized. I then add the tomato paste and toss the bones to get a somewhat even coating and let brown a bit more. I drain off the fat that has been rendered and reserve for Roux. I'll remove the bones, then deglaze the roasting pan/s with red wine. Everything into either the steam kettle or the Swiss/Tilt skillet, which ever I won't be needing in the time it takes to simmer the stock. I always use cold water to start the simmer process. It helps to end with a clear versus cloudy stock. Not sure of the science behind it but it does work.





PrairieChef said:


> Put bones in roasting pan.
> 
> Roast until nicely caramelized.
> 
> ...


As many have stated.

Dead simple.
I employ these techniques, only on a smaller scale. Which might explain why the word remouillage was not used in your production of stock. Do you? or is it just to time consuming?

I'm also wondering if you blanch bones aiding in discarding of impurities that cause cloudiness.I have blanched and I have not blanched, I don't know if I could tell the difference, just like I was told never to add parsley stem to stock, because it will make it cloudy.The 100's of times I have, has not made it cloudy. The 2 main points I use are cold water and as soon as a bubble breaks, I turn it right down to a simmer. Cool,refrigerate, and remove fat the next day works like a charm.


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## danvis65 (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi Taj,

   Only in some of the kitchens I've been in did we make a remouillage. A "second wetting" of the bones. This second and weaker stock was used in the making of soups. And the first wetting for sauces. I think it all depends on the Chef and if the kitchen set up allows for it.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

TAJ > Don't know who said or told you parsley stems make cloudy? Maybe they are smoking them? Don't believe it


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Ed Buchanan said:


> TAJ > Don't know who said or told you parsley stems make cloudy? Maybe they are smoking them? Don't believe it


I've never heard that either, Ed. The only time I would leave parsley stems out would be for a fond blanc.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

A couple of thoughts.....

Fat is a thief, it robs flavour and colour.  The longer you leave it in the stock, the more flavour it sucks up.  Mind you, you can always use this fat to sweat soup vegetables in, but I digress. Also, in a busy kitchen the odds of someone turning the heat up on the pot or stirring the contents vigoursly is much higher, and results are an emulsified fat and stock grunge.  Remove as much fat as possible 

Remouillage has more flavour than water. For me, the best use for remy is to wet new roasted bones.  In James Peterson's "sauces" he shows an elaborate system of sauce making using one remouillage after another with excellent results.  Another use is to reduce the remy down to a glace de viande, cut into cubes and toss into a'la minute suaces for a "flavour-boost"

Parsley stems?  It is true that a LOT of onions will turn a stock cloudy, but not parsley stems.


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## itsallafarce (Oct 24, 2010)

one of the spots i worked in we always made remy after the initial stock was made. i agree fully on the roasting of the bones. that's the way i was taught in school and that's the way every place that i've ever worked in has done it. also a few people said something about losing fond through the roasting process. how is that possible if you deglaze your roasting pan. as for onions clouding a stock i'm not sure but if you're using proper ratio's then you shouldn't have to worry about it.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

If anything will cloud a stock it will be the Calcium or Albumin  from the bones. One can't help clouding a stock a bit when making it. When you change a stock to a Consomme this is when you worry about clouding and scediment.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you boil stocks, they'll not only cloud but you won't ever be able to completely clarify them.  If you don't boil the stock, and do skim the scum more or less as soon as it forms, and follow the basic stock making procedures, you'll end up with a fairly clear stock.

To make consomme or jewel-clear aspic, take a clear stock, defat it, and further clarify it by using a little, lean ground meat and an egg white raft.  FWIW, the purpose of the ground meat is to start a sort of elevator current of protein into the raft which attracts and holds all the impurities which would otherwise make for cloudiness.  Sometimes, fine thread-like cuts of (leek, not onion) mirepoix are added along with the ground meat to help structure the raft (and add some flavor as well).  It's important they be cut fine enough to be light enough to be carried up into the raft -- at least as fine as julienne, but they don't have to be regulation julienne length -- in fact somewhat longer is somewhat better.

The big trick with clarifying is not so much the clarification itself as getting the liquid out of the pot without disturbing the raft and knocking crud back into the pot.  That means draining the clarified stock off from the bottom if your stock pot has a spigot, or "punching through" the raft.  Don't let the word "punch" fool you.  You actually gently push the raft to one side -- and very frikkin' carefully ladle the clarified stock out of the pot through the hole and through a cheesecloth lined fine strainer or tami -- just in case. You absolutely cannot strain the raft out of the liquid or vice versa or you'll just return all the unwanted impurities to the consomme.  By the way, this means leaving a fair amount of fully clarified consomme at the bottom of the stock pot, because you can't get to it without messing up the raft.  Part of the process.

To make what's called a double consomme you reduce the already clarified consomme and seived consomme by about 1/3.  You don't need to further clarify it.

It's a lot of trouble but nothing fancy, basic technique. 

BDL


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## prairiechef (May 22, 2010)

In answer to an earlier question, yes I make remi evertime I make stock. I use the remi for braising my brisket,as a nice base made so much better through the process. I don't like using it on it's own, even as a  base for soups. It's a good start for any slow cooked wet-heat redmeat dish though.

Consomme is a treat to make. One of the things that I truly, truly enjoy making. I don't do it often enough these days.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

It sure helps if you have an old consomme pot with the spout on bottom.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ed Buchanan said:


> It sure helps if you have an old consomme pot with the spout on bottom.


3/4" drill and a faucett assembly from a plumbing store. DAMHIKT...............

The bettter pots have a removable "cage" around the spigot, a'la the strainer corner in your pot wash sink.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I wonder if you can use powdered eggwhite for clarifying stock.  Hmm...


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2010)

I'm just not to sure who to reply to, however smoking parsley stems is not going to make the cut; it has to be hemp in order to get the full effect. I also don't think very well, and it was not the onion, as to the onion peel that I meant to say, which gives the stock a golden hue, more so then making it cloudy. As for parsley, I'm sure it was one of my cooking instructors, heck who knows and I certainly don't abide by it, or any other directions stated within culinary text bks. A lot of stuff goes into my stocks, including outer leaves and core of cabbage, core of cauliflower, outer skin of broccoli stems, washed eggshells, Brussels sprout leaves..... And as an added note to what is taught in schools, "never refrigerate warm stocks", endangering other foods or fridge. Along with this directive "Don't leave stocks to cool at rm. temp." Try explaining that to my employer, who wants me out of the kitchen as soon as possible to cut down on labor costs. Anyways I feel like I'm on a rant, and I'm not meaning to be. I know timing and ice baths are cool ways to reduce temp.

Aside from that, I would like to clear the clearing about albumin which increases clarifying power. As for defatting, once stock has settled and fat rises to the top to congeal, use ladle swirling from center outwards, spooning fat off at edges; a cold leaf of lettuce, or paper towel will also absorb fat.

The remo, is like I could never not do it, like a horse with those things (blinders) on there eyes, you always made one, that was the way I was taught, in other words if I had an espresso, it would have sambuca in it.Espresso Correcto. Speaking of stocks I have 6 "Soups from around the World" classes to demo, and given the allotted time I will show how to make a quick 20 min.stock, but for the most part I will use prepared stocks.

Ending with a quote from Carrol Lewis "Who would not give all else for two pennyworth of beautiful soup?

I'm sorry I don't quite know how I got on to the topic of soups  rather then stocks


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Kuan  Only if you mix in water first, I tried it. But the egg whites in containers in stores works also if you have no use for yolks.


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## prairiechef (May 22, 2010)

"including outer leaves and core of cabbage, core of cauliflower, outer skin of broccoli stems, washed eggshells, Brussels sprout leaves  "

Brussel sprouts and cabbage? Why would you add these to stock?

Eggshells? What flavour do eggshells add to your stock?

Celery carrot and onion... aromatic vegetables. Brocolli, Cauliflower and Cabbage are gassy, strong flavoured vegetables.

Other than using the stockpot as a garbage can to alleviate your guilt about wasting food...  I can't see the point.

And.. lettuce is mostly water. It won't "absorb" anything. paper towel... fine. But why not just cool your stock in a bain marie, then place it in the cooler? Pull the fat off in a solid piece.. and save a ton of time and effort... and lettuce and paper towel.

"Speaking of stocks I have 6 "Soups from around the World" classes to demo, and given the allotted time I will show how to make a quick 20 min.stock  "

no. You can show people how to make a quick 20 minute broth, or tea, but not a stock.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Taj,

PrarieChef brings up some good points. 

Just about any cruciferous vegetable, cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprout, cauliflower, etc.,  will make stock smell and taste like cabbage.  That's fine for cabbage soup, but I can't see using them in stock making. 

Egg shell helps "settle the grounds" in camp coffee.  What does it do for stock?

Also, what's a "remo?"

BDL


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