# Sharpening and a couple other Quetions



## owlbass (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi,

I've been lurking for about 3 months, and I would like to thank everyone for all the help you've provided.

Right now I have the Bester 1200, Suehiro Rika 5000 (Although, I haven't used it yet), and the CKTG Diamond Flattening Plate. And I plan on getting a stone in the 500 range soon. But I thought it would be a good idea to become an adequate sharpener before I invest anymore in knives.

So when I first started sharpening I slipped a few times and scratched the belly of the knife. How can I polish this out? I've really looked hard but I can't seem to find the info I need. Although, I don't care much about my Henckel 4star, I'm going to sharpen my girl friend's knives next weekend and she likes them to look pretty.

As far as the Rika stone goes, Mark at CKTG told me not to bother using it on the Henckel because the steel isn't that good. Would the same be true for my gf's Wustof Ikons?

Lastly on knifes. I've been jumping back and forth about how much money to spend. I know I want a 240 Gyuto and 150 petty. The Artifex is a great knife for the price but once you start looking at $200 range it's hard not to like them a lot. Right now I'm torn between the Masamoto VG and Richmond Ultimatum. I'm most concerned with profile and steel, but not so much about wa or yo. I use a pinch grip and have been trying to change to a push cut (Thanks to BDL's forum)

What are the big differences in the steel between the Masamoto VG and Ultimatum (19C27)?

Also, what are the differences between 19C27 and AEB-L?

What I do know is that I want Stainless or semi but definetley not carbon. No offence to the carbon lovers but I'm a little spacey sometimes and with the recent advancements in stainless I think it would be a better choice for me. Also with my level of knife skills I thought I would steer away from lasers for time being. I'm sure when I feel the need to get a 270 gyuto I'll go for the laser. I'm up in the air about Wa or Yo, but it sounds like a preference thing. 

Thanks in advance for all your help and please excuse any ignorance on my part.

Owen


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## dreamwrx (Oct 30, 2012)

I'll let the real experts chime in upon the sharpening but from the research I've done on Steels...

Masamoto VG series uses VG-10 steels which used to be really good but since AEB-L and other stainless steels have come out, they aren't the best anymore. However Masamoto VG series are still pretty good knives.

19c27 is Sandvik's attempt at a more wear resistant 13c26 (AEB-L). The 19c27 holds an edge better but doesn't sharpen as easily, its a bit stiffer, harder, and tougher but the AEBL gets a bit sharper. Both are quite good.

I started out with Yo handles because I was used to my older knives but since have gone to Wa handles as they are lighter and seem to be more comfortable for me than Yo handles were. To each their own on that.

On the fear of scratching knives, I have the same fear.. I think masking tape most of the face will help if you are still wary.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

If you haven't gotten the rough stone yet I highly recommend the Gesshin 400 from Japanese Knife Imports.  Jon had this stone made to his specs and it's the best rough stone I've used.


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## owlbass (Aug 23, 2012)

I thought I read a post by BDL that the Masamoto was VG2. Though, I could be confused.

I'm seriously considering the Gesshin stone. If I had the money I would have bought Gesshin 400, 2000, and 8000 all at once.

Thanks again,

Owen


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Regarding the Masamoto VG alloy, it's not VG10. There was quite an issue about this a few years ago, which resulted in Masamoto changing the "cobalt" claim on the knife's engraving -- which indicated VG10 -- to "hyper molybdenum vanadium" because they [ahem] "discovered" there was no cobalt in the alloy.

You're not confused about what I said in terms of VG2. To clarify further, Masamoto uses a "proprietary" alloy which is _very much like_ VG2. As a practical matter, Masamoto's proprietary alloy differs from VG2 to about the same degree as Henckels' proprietary alloy differs from X50CrMoV15.

In most cases, for the practical purposes of kitchen knives, VG2 is a better alloy than VG10. VG10 is stronger and -- everything else being equal (which it never is) -- has slightly better edge taking properties. VG2 is tougher and has less tendency to chip. Nearly all VG10 knives are chip prone, and chipping is a huge problem. Taking a knife to its sharpening limits, whatever they are, is something very few sharpeners can do -- and not a big concern of most cutters. So, even though VG10 was the alloy which was going to save the world a few years ago and VG2 was plebian... VG2 done well is probably the better choice.

13C26 IS AEB-L -- at least to the extent of _alla time same same_. Even the origins aren't very different. 13C26 is made by Sandvik and AEB-L is made by Uddeholm, but the iron ore comes from the same Sandvic pit. The alloy was formulated as a "strip steel," that is to come from the steel maker to razor blade makers ready for mass production.

19C27 is another Sandvik stainless, but not formulated as a strip. I believe 19C27 came to the market before 13C26. 19C27 might be slightly tougher than 13C26 in some universe, but between such similar alloys used for kitchen knives, wear and the tough/strong balance is a product of hardening.

In terms of knives, the three (two, really) alloys, given appropriate hardening and knife geometry, will perform about the same. It would be a mistake to choose one knife over the other because one was AEB-L and the other was 19C27.

The Ultimatum's profile is copied from Masamoto/Sabatier. The Ultimatum has a wa handle, the VG has a yo. The Ultimatum is made in the USA, the VG in Japan. The Ultimatum is lighter and presumably thinner than the VG, I've never compared them but the Ultimatum is a clone of the Masamoto KS and the KS is thinner than the VG. The Ultimatum is available in a choice of premium alloys, the VG is VG2. In any alloy, the Ultimatum is slightly harder. The Masamoto is a Masamoto -- which means a lot if you're Japanese or heavily into the ethos of Japanese knives, but otherwise not so much.

In terms of the alloys, as used in the particular knives. The VG's VG2 (or, like, whatever) is hardened to 58-59RCH. It is tough, and more prone to impact deformation (aka rolling, waving, getting dinged out of true, etc.) than the 60-61RCH Ultimatum's 19C27. However, the VG can be better trued and otherwise tuned with a steel than the Ultimatum. Neither knife is chip prone. Both are easy to sharpen on decent stones.

I'm a huge Masamoto fan, but would choose an Ultimatum over a VG for myself without hesitation. That said, I'd choose a good laser over an Ultimatum.

I've never used the Gesshin 400. Everyone I know and respect who has says it's not only a great stone but that it's the best coarse stone at any price. It is quite expensive though, especially for a stone you'll only use a couple of times a year. I use a Beston 500, which is not only a very good stone, but nearly perfect as a lead in to the Bester 1200. 


> If I had the money I would have bought Gesshin 400, 2000, and 8000 all at once.


Well yes. I already have a Gesshin 8K and can afford to replace my Beston 500, Bester 1200 and Chosera 3K with the Gesshin 400 and 2K if I want. But, "can afford" and want to throw out three perfectly good stones for something only slightly better is another story. It's something I think about, but don't lose sleep over. I'll wait til the 1200 wears out.

I've talked about some of my knife and stone choices in terms of comparison and recommendations, but mostly just to give some context. _Remember, you are the subject of this conversation._

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## dreamwrx (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm glad BDL is here to correct misinformation.. live and learn...


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## owlbass (Aug 23, 2012)

Thank you BDL, your explanation of the steels was very helpful.

I decided to call Mark at CKTG yesterday and he had some interesting things to say about the Ultimatum and Artifex. He told me that they have the same profile and grind, and the only differences between the two is the handle and steel. According to his specs on the the website the Artifex actually weighs 2oz less, which is probably from the lack of a bolster.  But also on the website the Ultimatum has spine thickness of 2.85mm and the Artifex has a heel thickness of 2.4. 

What's the difference between these two measurements? Heel vs Spine?

Lastly, has anyone tried the Ultimatum and the Artifex? If so, comments and comparisons would be helpful.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Artifex 240 gyuto and 150 petty. All for less than the price of an Ultimatum. I know a couple of days ago I was leaning towards the Ultimatum or Masamoto VG. But since I just found out the Artifex is a copy of the Masamoto KS it makes me think twice about it.

I know I probably won't appreciate the 'magic' profile but it makes me feel better. And hopefully in a year my knife skills will improve enough to where it will make me appreciate it.

Thanks again for everyone's help and patience


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