# do you recognize vegan as an allergy?



## kslim (Oct 23, 2013)

i got into a slight back and forth with a general friend about veganism, they claim its an allergy since most vegans "cant" eat meat, i think its more of a lifestyle choice, even though any restaurant ive worked in handles it/rings it in as an allergy in order to avoid confusion. 

So what do you think is being vegan a lifestyle choice or would you categorize it as an allergy?


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

Lifestyle choice. Vegans aren't allergic to meat.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

People with peanut allergies can have violent, even deathly reactions, as early as people with seafood allergies. 

Veganism is a choice, no doubt about that.


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## capricciosa (May 30, 2015)

It's a life-style choice, and one I don't agree with for a number of reasons (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill - it's satirical in tone but truthful at the same time).

However, I believe all customers have the right to be informed about what they're eating. I am 100% against telling vegans that food is vegan if it's not. If their requests/orders are too bizarre or impractical, I would rather give them an honest "we can't honor that request" than to lie to them about what they're eating.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

It's like kosher/parve or halal or Jainism or....


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## doraima3875 (May 3, 2015)

kslim said:


> i got into a slight back and forth with a general friend about veganism, they claim its an allergy since most vegans "cant" eat meat, i think its more of a lifestyle choice, even though any restaurant ive worked in handles it/rings it in as an allergy in order to avoid confusion.
> 
> So what do you think is being vegan a lifestyle choice or would you categorize it as an allergy?


I agree. Vegan is a lifestyle choice not an allergy.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

I think for vegan to be an allergy, the person would have to actually be allergic to some aspect of animal products. In the absence of some discernible allergy, the only option left is that its a lifestyle choice. 

I have an allergy to vegans. Does that count? :lol::rofl:


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

sgsvirgil said:


> I have an allergy to vegans. Does that count? :lol::rofl:


Made me think of this...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

There are only two types of vegans in the world:

The first kind are the ones who tell you what they can't eat.

The second kind are the ones who tell you what they can eat.

The first are very common, the second are very rare.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Your friend is a bit too focused on the meat part. Vegans do not eat ANY animal products or byproducts. Which includes a broad range of foods from meat to honey, eggs, cheese, etc. Anything that had anything to do with an animal is not eaten by vegans. 
That would be quite an allergy.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

And don't forget honey either 

"Client wants a gluten free vegan desert, and for god's sake don't give her a fruit platter or fob off one of those Jamie Oliver avocado chocolate/coconut mousses"....


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

To me, it seems more like a brain disease; and an infectious one at that. People probably first got it from rabbit bites.

By the way, I know a few vegetarians who occasionally eat meat; but they just chew it and spit it out.


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## kslim (Oct 23, 2013)

what about trying to go back to eating meat, a lot of vegans claim after years of not eating animal product their system can no longer handle meat...


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a friend who in the 90's would go out with the boys and eat a large rare steak and drink whiskey. She went vegan about 15 years ago and looks horrible. She was a stunner.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

kslim said:


> a lot of vegans claim after years of not eating animal product their system can no longer handle meat


Vegans claim a lot of things...

But regardless, gastronomical distress from eating unfamiliar food does not constitute an allergy; an allergy is an immune system reaction.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It's interesting to me that some people find it so hard to respect other people's interests. If someone choses to be one thing or another then wtf do you care? Do you want to take their money or not?

I personally am not vegan. I do however ... make a good amount of *$$$* feeding them. I respect, understand and accept them. Even all those _"fake" type_ people claiming vegan or gluten-free or allergies or any other goofy thing they want to claim.

We are in the business to _FEED PEOPLE_. ... duh ... Feed them and take their *$$$*.


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## Frank Kolton (May 28, 2018)

From my perspective, veganism is a mental illness.


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## kognqk (Apr 6, 2014)

I do not want to touch modern nonsense and misconceptions about fancy food movements .
Because of the lifestyle , our DNA , or simply fortified foods, we chose to lead, or just heredity , there is a condition known as "chronic condition " or with normal words , persistent disease that comes with time during our live time. Asthma , cancer , diabetes , hepatitis …etc……some of them LIFELONG.
scientific research proves the impact on our health with the consumption of animal products .There is philosophy and commercial part of it , but that is not a question . Again , this is not a fancy associated philosophy based on commodity status of animals or whatever in that way. Yep that kind of people/ the fancy one / unfortunately exist and they go in restaurants to make staff working day miserable .
*Vegan *is the practice of abstaining from the use of food based on animal products because of exact that Chronic condition.
Normally this kind of people have a small medical card briefly illustrating what can and can not consume and is presented to the chef.
*Vegetarianism *- are deliberate diet . Main component plant based , ethical , religion …etc. based understanding about life.
For the common problems of that kind of, to help comes good Health & Safety ,Food safety ,Food allergens certificates . Good idea is , to complete all of them .
Another topic is what is normal and abnormal these days in the hospitality business.
All the best


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

no, it is a LIFE CHOICE.

It is a legitimate life choice that many places shold try to accomidate, but it is NOT an "allergy"


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

similarly.
"no gluten" CAN BE a LEGITIMATE insensitivity, and the "no wheat" FAD.
But 99% of the people CLAIMING it do not legitimately have it. I am willing to take their money within reason. Think of it as "marketing".

But separately FAKERS take away the credibility of people with LEGITIMATE medical needs. people get careless because we assume the 1% are the same as the 99% fakers. 
This can be a FATAL mistake and many of us may have serial or parallel liability or might be in a class of employees that a few lawsuits would jeopardize the company. BE CAREFUL even if you think they're fakers.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi kognqk,

Had a bit of difficulty understanding your post. While there may be scientific data linking chronic illnesses to consumption of animal products, many vegans make their choice of diet based on other reasons. Many of the vegans I know are young and have no chronic illnesses, nor did they before starting their vegan lifestyle.

One thing I did not know about Buddhist vegetarians is that they don't eat onions or garlic. Seems it is felt both onions and garlic destroy bacteria in the gut, but several Buddhist vegetarians tell me that spirits will lick off garlic and onion juices from your face in the night if you eat it. I got no trace of B.S. from these people, they were dead serious, or believed they were.

Next week we have a tour group of Indians, no meat, fish, or eggs, but dairy is o.k., in fact they requested yoghurt, and milk for tea.


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

I heard differently.

From what I heard, onions and garlic are too pungent and too stimulating to the senses.

They are always supposed to keep their cool and be calm so they must eat plain food.

The food also have to be on the bland side because strong seasonings excite the palate too much.


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## kognqk (Apr 6, 2014)

*"if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth."*
Allergies increasing , that is out of question .
Distinctions are between several categories of vegetarian , strict vegetarians/ knows as dietary vegans/ , based on ethic , religion ……..sure I mention that before
For example . Colleagues specializing in cooking for children know that , 1-3 of 50 children have an allergy to eggs. Often with sensitivity to proteins in the white part , rather than yolk.
Children with a milk allergy, have a Allergy reaction to beef meat. Small % but growing . Same as adults , so they are allergy to meat from milk feeding animal species. Which disappears or remains over the lifetime. Bites from some insects , can cause delayed allergic response triggered by Meat , and the host do not know that till happen ..that with high level are exact in USA , observations are since 2011.
*YES ,it is possible people to be allergy to meat from milk feeding animals. S*ome of them worried about their health advised by a doctor , food guru , or any other reason , start vegetarian , vegan approach in to their lives in to many different ways.
Ethic one , religion based , fitness ambition , personal reasons , attractive for the opposite sex, whatever ,,,,nothing to do with that topic.
However , allergies with many names ,vary from country to country , person to person , Sensitivity levels , trigger , reaction …etc. Because of that , to help comes definitions and official organizations in a particular country . AND in USA ,BDA in UK , DC in Canada …etc. to create a terminology simple and clear to protect from problems locally based . One of basic chefs duties are , to protect customers health/sometimes from themselves/ . To do this, chefs , people involved in to food business need to keep themselves up-to-date with clear definitions and knowledge according to local laws, standards, food regulations ...etc
.Not imaginary based on their own understanding, spread mouth by mouth, or based on experience during shift .
*Cooking is not a game , playing with someone health is not a game .*
However the topic is very serious and deepening will require serious science to clear up many questions.
All the best


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

kognqk said:


> *"if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth."*
> Allergies increasing , that is out of question .
> Distinctions are between several categories of vegetarian , strict vegetarians/ knows as dietary vegans/ , based on ethic , religion ……..sure I mention that before
> For example . Colleagues specializing in cooking for children know that , 1-3 of 50 children have an allergy to eggs. Often with sensitivity to proteins in the white part , rather than yolk.
> ...


Your writing style is very hard to decipher and I have little to know idea what you actually said in your post.

There is, as far as I know, only 1 type of vegetarian, not several categories. Vegetarian ≠ vegan. I don't know what the difference is between a "dietary vegan" and a vegan.

If you eat fish/shellfish you aren't a vegetarian. 
If you eat chicken you aren't a vegetarian. 
If you eat pork you aren't a vegetarian.

You can call yourself a pescaterian, or a pollotarian, or whatever, but you are not a vegetarian.

Vegans obviously don't eat any animal or animal derived products at all.

I don't think anyone here is confused about the terms vegan or vegetarian. The issue is if people who are vegans should be recognized as having an allergy.

Having an allergy to milk or milk animal protein doesn't mean a person is a vegan. Having an allergy to milk is exactly that, it has nothing to do with being a vegan, except that a vegan wouldn't eat milk. Nobody, as far as I can tell, has said that people can't be allergic to animal products. But CHOOSING to be a vegan is not an allergy, in any way, shape or form.

So, again, I don't understand what you are trying to say. No one has said that allergies don't exist, or that people can't be allergic to milk, or meat.


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## chefsing (Dec 19, 2015)

I would not call it an allergy, but if you life a vegan lifestyle and consume meat it can create an intolerence. With the gluten trend coming view that similarly, while Celiac is in fact a disease, some people are just more sensitive to consuming it so I consider that an intolerence.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Its not uncommon for people who have lived a vegan lifestyle to experience digestive issues when they eat meat after a long period of abstinence. However, their body's readjustment to digesting meat is does not meet (no pun intended) the definition of "allergy" or "allergic reaction." 

I don't think comparing people who claim to have a sensitivity to gluten or Celiac Disease is likewise an apples to apples comparison to the variety of reasons people choose a vegan lifestyle. The distinguishing feature here is the choice. People choose to be vegan. People do not choose what sensitivities, diseases or allergies they have. 

Those allergies could play a role in their decision to become vegan. However, the allergies themselves do not mandate they become vegan. Their allergies can be remedied by simply avoiding foods that otherwise trigger their allergies. Some, however, figure the best way to cope with their allergies is to choose a vegan lifestyle.

Veganism is not a consequence of any known medical condition. One does not wake up one morning, look in the mirror and show signs and symptoms of veganism or give birth a 7lb, 8oz baby vegan. Vegan is a choice. For everyone that chooses a vegan lifestyle, that choice is different. But, nonetheless, a choice. 

Now, if anyone would really like to set this thread on fire, let's debate whether or not those who are vegans have a mental disorder.  Just kidding......put down the cleavers! lol


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

kslim said:


> i got into a slight back and forth with a general friend about veganism, they claim its an allergy since most vegans "cant" eat meat, i think its more of a lifestyle choice, even though any restaurant ive worked in handles it/rings it in as an allergy in order to avoid confusion.
> 
> So what do you think is being vegan a lifestyle choice or would you categorize it as an allergy?


Hell no, it is *not* an allergy. You choose to be vegan, you do not 'choose' to have hay-fever.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

sgsvirgil said:


> Just kidding......put down the cleavers! lol


Do vegans even have cleavers?


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

kronin323 said:


> Do vegans even have cleavers?


I was waiting to see who picked up on that punny.....lol


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## kognqk (Apr 6, 2014)

Vegan philosophy existed long time before Mr. Walson.
Cancer and allergy is a major threat to human health . Food consumed can reduce or increase the risk of cancer and allergy . our health is influenced by the food we eat . different definitions come to help to determine specific conditions and diets .
Simple example : There is Association between allergic conditions and cancer. Vegan diet help in specific way.
Yes, depending on where /part of the world , specific hospital /it is used and the understanding behind it, it can be said : vegan as an allergy or sick people with a specific diet . Еspecially in places with high radioactivity
according to the answers I see here, it seems a lot of you do not understand and do not know that and not only :
Immune response to food is different than food intolerance , food poisoning ,
Dietary restrictions is different than Religious Restrictions , ethical , dietary requirements , lifestyle , fancy one.
Vegan - eschew milk, seafood, shellfish, to reduce risk of food allergies by eliminating or reduce reaction from common food allergy culprits
milk allergy is different than lactose intolerance 
Wheat allergy is different than gluten intolerance
Many people allergic to finned fish are not allergic to shellfish , but they can get allergy reaction
fish protein can become airborne in the steam released while cooking.
kslim - if you really want an answer, ask a specialist LOCAL/ doctor dietician / no forum .


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

Let's stick with Western medicine and science.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Kognqk,

No one is disputing your facts.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that healthy people CHOOSE to avoid certain foods for any number of reasons, with the exception of health.


Let's use the following example:

Say we work together in a kitchen, during pre service prep I CHOOSE to hook up cheap speakers to my phone and blast out Chinese opera--classic Chinese opera. You do not respect my choice, I claim I can prep faster, better, and with more style than you. You tell me to turn down the noise, I call you an ingnorant boor who doesn't understand good Chinese opera.

You do not respect my choice, and I don't respect the dietary choices healthy people make.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

I look at veganism as a choice. I don't agree with it and have rolled my eyes way too many times at it.

There is growing and credible evidence out there that our out dated medications are being thrown down the drain and enter our water supply. In infinitesimally small amounts that don't get filtered at the purifying stations. 
These meds get in our water supply.
Also note the recent increase in infantile infections, perhaps caused by bacteria resistant to the bodies disease fighting cells.
They also say that drugs given to our livestock are passed down to the meat we consume. This has been going on for a few generations now.
Perhaps only time and more tests will prove that a vegan diet is better or not. 
Celiac's disease is very real, but also, like many other things, are copied and imitated as a fade.
Not eating wheat because it will cause digestive distress and worse is far different then not eating wheat because you think it makes you fat.


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## JoannaJancz (Aug 13, 2018)

Allergies can be life threatening. A food choice or strong preference or voluntary food exclusion is not an allergy. That said, I think as professional cooks and chefs we just have to curse under our breaths and make what the customer wants (within reason!).


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## Kitchen Bandits (Aug 12, 2018)

It's hard to be vegan and keep hanging around with the same people who are not. I think that it's important sometimes to not just change just the diet but the environment. Ten years ago I went from meat eater to raw-vegan and make a lot of changes regarding where I would hang around and with who. I always carried with me raw vegetables, fruits and nuts in case I need it a feed, but also when I decided to go to a restaurant or cafe, I would ask for a salad with a wedge of lemon for dressing, because I worked in hospitality and I know how much of a pain is to deal with people who don't know what they want. 

It's not just vegan people. There are a lot of people with weird requirements, but at the end of the day, the best thing is to have empathy for others and get better at suggesting other options. 

Flip the coin, take a meat eater to a vegetarian or vegan restaurant and you'll find out the same attitude towards discontentment. The world is changing and the ones who survive (businesses) are the ones who adapt.

It's very hard to think straight when someone takes you from the comfort zone.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

....Ahhhhh but restaurants ARE taking notice and placing GF (gluten free) as well as vegan items on their menus.


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## jay lancaster (Aug 26, 2016)

When vegans have to start carrying around an EpiPen they can consider it an allergy. Until then, it's their own fault they don't enjoy meat.


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## jay lancaster (Aug 26, 2016)

Restaurants are free to have vegan items, and they are free to not. It's just a business/menu choice. It is no different than a Mexican restaurant choosing not to serve Italian food...or a barbecue joint that doesn't serve kale or hummus.


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## r.shackleford (Jul 16, 2009)

we had a customer send back an vegetarian benny last week because it wasnt vegan, this weekend it was the buttermilk pancakes being sent back because it wasnt vegan. 
Different vegans same problem, lack of protein to the brain
funnily enough one of our best sellers is a vegan dish but for some reason they like to go rogue


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## Cdp (Aug 31, 2017)

its not an alergy it is a life style choice,

it can be a mental condition as well if the client is knowingly eating a product a that is not vegan can cause possible conclusions etc etc
this i had on a beo ( function form )


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## iridium12 (Feb 24, 2015)

Veganism is a lifestyle choice - might not be the easiest to follow (based on all the exclusions to their dietary needs), but non the less - it is a choice

Here in Asia we have had a hype about veganism but it kind of died down the moment it started
Guess if you look at Asian cuisine it becomes extremely difficult to go full vegan (just think of all the fish sauce used over here)...

And agree - while we all have our own opinions and so forth about veganism, it is important to either ramp up the capacity to serve vegans or, as mentioned before as well, to inform them upfront that the kitchen cannot cater to this


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Foodpump’s second human observation:

There are only two types of vegans. Those who tell you what they can’t eat, which are common, and those who tell you what they can eat, which are rare.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Veganism is not an allergy. It is a life choice. That being said, many chefs have a strong bias against vegans which we should really temper. Yes, I know that it can be difficult when we encounter those militant, in-your-face vegans, but, if for no other reason than it makes good business sense, we should do whatever we can for vegans.

Of course, there is a very small number of vegans that do actually have an allergy to meat. I don't know if it is all meat or just certain kinds, but being allergic to meat is a real thing-and much different the indigestion that many vegans face when they eat their once-a-year burger, or when they first go back to eating meat.


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## jay lancaster (Aug 26, 2016)

You cater to the population you choose. If that population includes vegans, then yes, it makes good business sense. But I harken back to my examples of an Italian eatery that chooses to not serve Mexican food. They chose the business segment they wanted. Or a bakery that chooses to not serve ribeyes. Again, they chose their market segment. There are also vegan restaurants that chose what market segment they wanted to aim for. We are all free to choose who we would like to cook food for. Other than my salad bar, I'm not sure what options I would have available for a strict vegan.

With all that said, I in no way look down on people who are vegan. Some that choose that lifestyle, for no other reason that they wanted to, can be a bit weary on the soul. Those that follow veganism for religious purposes tend to know where they can go, or just stay at home. They don't try to press their life choices on others...to my experience. My MIL is Hindi and is strictly vegan. As a West Indian, she can cook vegan meals in which you will not miss meat at all. And to them, they aren't vegan meals...they are just meals. It's just normal food. I'm a serious carnivore, but when we visit and we eat at Ms. Mary's table, I do not miss meat in the least. Everything in the Caribbean is so darn good.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Sorry, Jay but your analogy of an Italian restaurant not serving Mexican does not fit here. A vegan should be able to walk into just about any restaurant, even a steakhouse, and request a vegan meal. At its simplest, it could be a plate of steamed, grilled or sautéed vegetables. Not saying you have to re-invent the wheel or bend over backwards to create some earth shattering dish. I just can't understand any chef, manager, or owner that would turn away a vegan (again, I am not saying to go out of your way to cater to them, or re-label your place as vegan). The bad vibe it brings. Not only do you piss off the vegan, but if they are with a group, you've pissed all those others off, not just the vegans. I can't think of anything that would annoy me more than to go to a restaurant with my friends or family and for the place to refuse to create a vegan dish. We would all leave, and I promise you that all my friends would hear about how poorly we were treated.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Have I or have I not posted a bunch of vegan dishes here?!? ... MAYBE if those of you naysayers would ever look at those it would show you the ease of vegan cooking. ... You might ... maybe ... change your minds.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

pete said:


> A vegan should be able to walk into just about any restaurant, even a steakhouse, and request a vegan meal.


Vegan meals or otherwise, I don't see how any restaurant is obligated to create an off-menu item upon request. A place may choose to do so but it's not any industry standard I've ever heard of.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

kronin323 said:


> Vegan meals or otherwise, I don't see how any restaurant is obligated to create an off-menu item upon request. A place may choose to do so but it's not any industry standard I've ever heard of.


I never said any place is obligated to do so, but restaurants are in the business to make money and turning away a vegan, and the people they are with is poor business, especially when it doesn't require you to purchase any additional items to keep on hand, just in case a vegan walks in. Argue it any way you want but it is poor business and poor service.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, yes, a restaurant is a business, and it needs to make money in order to survive. 

Then again, I would never walk into a hardware store and demand that they stock spiral bound sketch pads, or a liquor store stock Mars bars and chocolate milk. It’s easy enough for these stores to do that though, right?

My biggest issue is the one I’ve described above: The majority of the vegans can only tell you ( or server, as the case may be) what they can’t eat. If, on the whole menu there is no eggplant, the vegan will proudly state that an eggplant dish would be fine.

Just my opinion, and I welcome any comments on it.....


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

So, you all who are disagreeing with me, let me get this straight. You are saying that a group comes in, and one is a vegan. You are turning the group away, because that is what you are arguing.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

pete said:


> So, you all who are disagreeing with me, let me get this straight. You are saying that a group comes in, and one is a vegan. You are turning the group away, because that is what you are arguing.


So you've never gone out with a group of people somewhere, looked at the menu, and decided they had nothing you wanted to eat? What did you do? Insist the entire group leave? Ask the staff to make you something custom to your liking? Or did you just decline to order and instead sat there and socialized with your friends?

Or a place serves breakfast from 8:00AM to 11:00AM. You're eating there at 7:00PM and want to order from the breakfast menu. They tell you no; is that bad business?

It's not saying "no you can't eat here". It's saying "we offer what's on the menu, order anything from it you like".

Now if they came in during a slow period, sure, maybe can be more accommodating to off-menu requests (vegan or otherwise). But if we're in the weeds with an hour wait, would I disrupt the flow of service and operation of the kitchen trying to inject an on-the-fly custom creation? No, I wouldn't.

I'm not saying discriminate against vegans. I'm saying vegans don't get any special treatment over any other customer when it comes to what's offered and what requests are accommodated. If they want to try to bully me about it, well, I'll just have to learn how to live without their business.

Theory aside, in practice this was our solution - some of our dishes included a skewer of mesquite grilled vegetables as a side. We had those prepped up and ready to go; the cook working the grill station was used to cooking them. So they were available ala carte and that is what we would steer our non-meat eating customers towards, a couple of those skewers ala carte.

Now they were basted in butter while grilled so we would use a modifier already set up on our POS to order them "dry". If anybody objected to them being grilled on the same grill as meat, nobody spoke up.

But that's different than pouring through your inventory to create something custom on the fly that suits one person's individual tastes. You gotta draw the line somewhere.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I’m not turning away a group because one is vegan. I will, however, patiently explain that what I have to offer is on my menu, and there will be at least one vegetarian dish, and various sides available. I am not a vegetarian restaurant, so I don’t have the entire menu dedicated to vegetarian dishes. It’s kind of like a steak place 2,000 miles from an ocean that offers salmon on the menu, but not an entire seafood menu— probably because it’s a steak joint 2000 miles from the nearest ocean.

I will turn away someone who insists on having something that I don’t have on hand, for the simple reason that I don’t have those particular ingredients on hand.

Currently I have the luxury of working in the bqt. dept. of a smaller hotel. Our function notices clearly state allergies or dietary restrictions, and we get a minimum of 36 hrs notice. I’ve had just about every dietary request imaginable, and I’ve fulfilled those requests, mainly because we get a heads up with enough time to get those ingredients in and time to prepare them. A’la carts restaurants don’t have that luxury and feel abused when the customer demands what isn’t on the menu.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Kronin and foodpump, you just proved my point. You both agreed that there is something you can do to accommodate vegans. I have never said that you need to bend over backwards to accommodate outlandish requests, but we all, in our kitchens, have items that we can offer that dont seriously disrupt the flow of your kitchen.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I thought your point was, if a group comes in, and one’s a vegan, the group gets turned away?


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Are you seriously being that obtuse?


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

I thought our points were a bit different but it doesn't really matter, sounds like we're starting to talk in circles now...


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## chefonfire (May 8, 2010)

To the vegans that called a week ahead and requested a 7 course vegan tasting menu paired with wine. Thank you and Hell yes. Fun to do. It was a treat for me to play within a few boundaries. 

To the vegans that ask for a vegan dish on a busy Saturday night. Ok, tell your server what you like and what you don't like. Challenge accepted. I will do my best. 

To the gluten free vegan that doesn't like grains or mushrooms and wants a 4 course dinner on a Saturday. Ok come on man. Gimme a little heads up. We will make you something but you get what I give you. 

To the vegan that organized a protest outside my restaurant for serving foie gras. I met with you and found that you don't even know what foie Gras is. You heard about it from a friend a week ago and now you are dressed like a duck and holding a sign at my front door. I am a patient man but go swallow bleach.

Welp, I feel better. What were you talking about?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

If someone comes in @ 8:30 pm and wants bacon, eggs and toast ... you are hardly any type of business person to tell them "NO". Same thing goes for other such menu items such as generally any type of omelet. As a matter of fact ... most any type of breakfast menu item can be made at any time of shift, outside of things such as pancakes. Nut a good kitchen can make pancakes. Please to dry to tell me that you can't whip up French toast in less than 10-minutes with items on hand because you would be showing yourself out as unskilled. Any real kitchen that is not a _Micky-D's_ fast-food joint can make any meal at any time of the day. Saying that you can't is the same as saying you're not as good as _Denny's_. This all was just to point out bad analogies.

Please just stop saying that you are not ingredient prepared to serve vegans. Just be honest and say that you just don't want to because of your lack of culinary skills. Cooking vegan is VERY EASY if you are open to it and not afraid.

You should be out on the streets looking for work the next day if you let a group walk out because you can't come up with a DECENT vegan dish for a customer.

_We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."._​


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Here is a brutally easy VEGAN dish that any dish-pit hack can throw together and look good. Please don't tell me "We don't have that ingredient.", because it will be an easy swap for something you DO HAVE.

Pappardelle with Summer Squash and Arugula-Walnut Pesto

First make a light pesto ... use any nut you want, you really don't need the cheese. Unless of course your kitchen is not stocked to make a pesto. If that's the case use any type of Italian style salad dressing you have, just heat it gently.
Use any type of pasta (wider is better) ... even if you're a comedian and tell me all you have are lasagna noodles ... because those will swap great. You just break them into med-small pieces.
Take a peeler to ANY type of soft squash and make ribbons 4-5 inches long that show at least 1 edge of color.
When the pasta is cooked add it to the squash with a little bit of the pasta water and mix to heat squash. Drain pasta water if needed.
Dress pasta/squash gently with pesto.
Plate , garnishing with lemon zest fresh cracked black perter and toasted bread crumbs.

_VOILA!_​


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I thought pasta would be unacceptable for vegans because it's made with eggs.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

@Iceman you appear to have some emotional investment here on the vegan side.

Throwing out insults about people's business acumen, cooking skills, comparisons to fast food, and being afraid of cooking vegan isn't exactly how to swing people over to your point of view.

And that's the kind of behavior that makes vegans such popular customers, too. I'm just sayin'...


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Lots of vegan pasta varieties are available. Just look at the package. Reading is fundamental.

Kronin ... I don't expect to swing you anywhere. I'm not being insulting. I'm pointing out really bad analogies. I'm pointing out that many people don't really know restaurant business. I'm trying to explain that skills trump attitude and that people with skills get jobs done.

I'll try and give a nice piece of positive "BUSINESS ADVICE" here ...

_... HAPPY PEOPLE COME BACK AND SPEND MORE MONEY. NOBODY EVER SPENDS ANY MONEY AFTER BEING TURNED AWAY. _
_1 HAPPY PERSON TELLS MAYBE 1 OR 2 PEOPLE ... 1 UNHAPPY PERSON TELLS 8-10 PEOPLE. _
_VEGAN COOKING IS EASY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO TRY._


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_from their site:_

*DOES BARILLA PASTA CONTAIN DAIRY PRODUCTS?*
Barilla's durum wheat semolina pasta does not contain dairy or come in contact with dairy on the lines.


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## kronin323 (Apr 11, 2018)

"Just look at the package. Reading is fundamental."

Yeah, you're so not trying to be insulting...

And whether or not you're trying to "swing" me personally, you obviously are trying to promote a perspective to the broader audience. And I'm just sayin', arrogant proclamations don't catch a lot of flies...

But enough. I don't need any extra drama in my life and I'm not going to mix it up with a hothead here. Have a nice day.


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## iridium12 (Feb 24, 2015)

chefonfire said:


> To the vegans that called a week ahead and requested a 7 course vegan tasting menu paired with wine. Thank you and Hell yes. Fun to do. It was a treat for me to play within a few boundaries.
> 
> To the vegans that ask for a vegan dish on a busy Saturday night. Ok, tell your server what you like and what you don't like. Challenge accepted. I will do my best.
> 
> ...


Very nicely put


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## fatcook (Apr 25, 2017)

Iceman said:


> _from their site:_
> 
> *DOES BARILLA PASTA CONTAIN DAIRY PRODUCTS?*
> Barilla's durum wheat semolina pasta does not contain dairy or come in contact with dairy on the lines.


Erm, you do know that eggs are not dairy?


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

The website offers the option to search for pasta without various ingredients, eggs being just one choice. Search turned up no results.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

https://www.peta.org/living/food/is-pasta-vegan/


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

I have family members that are Vegan, and I've gone round and round about my "eating flesh" when I try to cook around them. I try to be accommodating, and I'm a pretty laid back person, but I've got to go with Bourdain's view:

*"Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter-faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn. *


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

Iceman said:


> If someone comes in @ 8:30 pm and wants bacon, eggs and toast ... you are hardly any type of business person to tell them "NO". Same thing goes for other such menu items such as generally any type of omelet. As a matter of fact ... most any type of breakfast menu item can be made at any time of shift, outside of things such as pancakes. Nut a good kitchen can make pancakes. Please to dry to tell me that you can't whip up French toast in less than 10-minutes with items on hand because you would be showing yourself out as unskilled. Any real kitchen that is not a _Micky-D's_ fast-food joint can make any meal at any time of the day. Saying that you can't is the same as saying you're not as good as _Denny's_. This all was just to point out bad analogies.
> 
> Please just stop saying that you are not ingredient prepared to serve vegans. Just be honest and say that you just don't want to because of your lack of culinary skills. Cooking vegan is VERY EASY if you are open to it and not afraid.
> 
> ...


It's not a question of being prepared with the proper ingredients.

Vegans will NOT want food prepared in a pan that had fish or meat. Just last month, I had a person whine about "you cut a piece of meat on that cutting board" (which I washed with hot, soapy water and a bleach rinse) only to have the Vegan whine "It had meat on it....I don't want it....


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It's funny ... I've been doing Vegan since the late '80's. ... I've cooked for and made some serious coins from Vegans.

I've never yet ever heard any of the foolish noise from any Vegan diners that I've dealt with ... that has been given as any kind of fact or reference here.

_"We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."._​


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Lots of noise from vegans.

I never knew that Chinese Budhists won’t eat anything from the onion family, or garlic. Food that contained these items got sent back. Then there were the Indian tour groups who were vegetarians or is that vegans? that wouldn’t eat eggs, but dairy—especially yoghurt was requested. Gawd knows how many risotto con fungi were spent back because the vegan couldn’t stand “squishy” mushrooms, but grilled Portobellos were O.K. Of course Honey is not vegan, but many vegans do request it, and yet other vegans lecture on the evils of “ bee barf”.

In short, I’ve encountered more vegans who look at a menu and tell the server, “ I can’t have that”, than Vegans who look through the menu and say, “ that sounds interesting, and it ticks all the boxes, I think Ill try it”.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

All the situations you just pointed out there *food pump* ... I just deal with through simple educated conversation. I've never had any problems dealing with cutlery, flatware, cooking utensils or cooking surfaces. Simple conversation. I tell the diners that I will pre sterilize everything and cook and serve them personally. I mean ... WTF? ... They're paying top-$$$ for low-cost stuff that just happens to be made by a fantastic Chef that knows what he is doing. Might it jack up the timing of my kitchen ... yeah ... 30-seconds to 1 or 2 minutes. BFD my friend when they're spending the $$$ that they do.

_"We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."._​


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Eh, no they’re not. 
A regular main is anywhere from $28- 40, the vegan items are priced below that, usually $20-$28 range, yet consume just as much or more prep time than meat items. Same overhead, ambiance, and staffing costs as the meat items. And, as any server will tell you, most vegans don’t drink. 

In short, most restaurants are not earning big bucks serving vegan dishes.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_quote:_ "In short, most restaurants are not earning big bucks serving vegan dishes."

_That's because there not good at doing it. _


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Somehow I just can’t envision you Iceman, as a successful Vegan restaurateur, one successful enough to hire a manager to take over so you can go on extended holidays, write cookbooks, and make weekly appearances on local TV.

Maybe I should just try harder, eh?


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## jay lancaster (Aug 26, 2016)

I fully grasp the concept of cooking what you have to satisfy a guest. But not all restaurants/concepts are the same. Not everyone has ingredients on hand to do anything "worth a damn" at the drop of a hat. They can enjoy my salad bar.

"Lifestyle" vegans tend to care less about what pan their food was cooked in as religious vegans. Many of them just care about proclaiming their vegan lifestyle than anything else. A good few are on that track for health reasons...and even fewer restaurant goers are vegan for religious reasons. Many religious vegans just eat at home because they know what eating out means.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

This discussion seems to have run it's course and has devolved into a pissing match. Closing it down.


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