# Do you have to be a good line cook to be a good chef?



## burntmitts82 (Oct 4, 2013)

Something Ive been thinking about lately. I know not all good line cooks make good chefs but can ok line cooks, meaning not the fastest or most efficient, be good chefs? Im probably the least skilled (most inexperienced as well) cook on the line, and though i improve or try to daily i know im 31 and will probably never fully catch up, however i feel like my ability in terms of organization, knowledge of ingredients and conceptualizing dishes are not the wordt in the kitchen. I made a huge life change to work.at becoming a chef and was wondering what your views were on someone who isnt a line rock star eventually being able to be a good head of a kitchen.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

come on!! you're 31 and say your're OLD??? never fully catch up???  bullshit.

you WILL if you WANT.

same goes for the goal.

do what's needed and you will get there.

I am 47 started this year january.

line cook now. 

who knows whats up next year. 

know yourself and where your passion and your strong points are , then all the rest is relatively easy.

go for it if thats what you want.


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## debo (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes I do think so. They are two completely different jobs. A chef is a manager and a teacher if you are fundamentally sound and have a knack for numbers then yes you can. But you have to be able to cook, put into action and develop the food you are making, that is completely different from being able to turn out consistent and good food night after night with tickets piling up, that's what line cooks do. The chef is there to make sure they have everything as far as product, knowledge direction that they need to be able to do their job.
Most great chefs I have worked with have been amazing like cooks absolute animals in the line because that's what they love and how they worked there way up in the business. Its possible to be a great chef without being the best line cook, but it is defiantly a hell of alot easier to gain the respect of a veteran line cook if you can keep up on the line if you have too.


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

Debo summed it up nicely----Organization and teaching----plus respect earned by experience---

I was the executive chef---but I do believe my crew could out cook me----My skills were in the office and directing the gang------


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Yes it is possible, but the chefs that I would follow into the gates of hell if necessary were the ones that could walk the talk. I am more apt to listen to someone tell me how to be better at my job that is better at my job than me.


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## jefferyahunter (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm definitely in agreement with cheflayne on this one, yes one can attain the title of chef while not being the best cook on the line but to have the loyalty of a crew (especially a smaller one) you gotta have the skills and be the go to bail my ass out if needed no matter the station guy(or gal) and 31 isn't old by any stretch.


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## jimmy lauria26 (Aug 24, 2013)

Most people have a misinterpretation of the word chef. They believe that a chef is an expert in quickness and quality of cooking. Even that may be true the real interpretation of the word chef is MANAGER, someone with strong culinary, leadership, delegation and teaching skils. if we would compare the chef to other managers in other types of companies it woud be as follows. masterchef=general manager, executive chef=regional manager, chef de cuisine=district manager and sous chef office or store manager. each level attained the more skils needed, however, it is always good to strive being the best you can be especially in the restaurant business. I changed my career at 39 now 51 and trust me am not the quickest but I do have good culinary knowledge not that of a master chef but as a production chef. So stay enthused do the best you can do and dont give up your still young.


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## burntmitts82 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the encouragement and replies. I know that much of being a good chef is management skills, leadership and organization. I guess I ask because moving up from the bottom rung in a kitchen is so dependent on your performance on the line, especially when you haven't attended a culinary education program. I often find myself imagining how the thomas kellers, ferran adrias and rene redzepis managed as line cooks.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Clues to one's potential for possessing or developing "management skills, leadership and organization" are shown through the job they do as a line cook. The ones that show the greatest propensity for these attributes are usually the ones selected for advancement.

Food knowledge such as that gained through a formal culinary school education is nice if already in place, but generally lower on priority list when choosing candidates for advancement, because that can be taught. OJT. The aforementioned attributes can't be taught.

I was your age when I finally got serious and decided upon a culinary career path. I caught up, but then it never entered my head that I might be behind.


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## burntmitts82 (Oct 4, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> Clues to one's potential for possessing or developing "management skills, leadership and organization" are shown through the job they do as a line cook. The ones that show the greatest propensity for these attributes are usually the ones selected for advancement.
> 
> Food knowledge such as that gained through a formal culinary school education is nice if already in place, but generally lower on priority list when choosing candidates for advancement, because that can be taught. OJT. The aforementioned attributes can't be taught.
> 
> I was your age when I finally got serious and decided upon a culinary career path. I caught up, but then it never entered my head that I might be behind.


Thank you for that.


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## beastmasterflex (Aug 14, 2013)

I think kitchen awareness is the the key to being a good chef, thats at least what I was taught. For instance, knowing the temperature of a striploin that is being cooked by someone else on the far side of the kitchen. You have to be one with the kitchen accept it into your soul be aware of every tiny change. Speed, stamina, self discipline, and love are the key, the right way to do things is easy to find, its the way that's the biggest pain in the ass.


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## smurf (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm sorry but some of u guys live on a different planet. To be a chef requires a few things the most is common sense ( lacking in a great number of wan a bees. The next is experience ( needed to pull the shit out of the fan when it hits as it will) next the ability to do the work and not vear from YOUR vision of the dish.(every one thinks they can improve yours) the most important build a team of chefs that you can trust implicitly as they carry your job and rep every service. As no one cares how good the last service was if this one just f####d up. Do the job you want to do. Rewards come either way. Want the money go get it but you need to be good and produce results. Go freelance get the high hourly rate ,you need to be good to get it. Go for the accolade you need to be good to get it.
Their are too many run of the mill cooks who think they are chefs and can't cook or just out of collage and know it all. IF you can cook. And can get through a service with awesome results , make budget, and run everybody with precision. You can then call yourself the chef till then you are still learning. Whether you are 20 of 50 it depends on whether your common sense says I know enough or not.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ummm Smurf?  You're forgetting one thing.

The employer.

You actually think the employer is gonna take some kid with no working experience fresh out of culinary school and put him in charge of a kitchen with employees and, ultimately responsible for feeding a dining room full of guests and waiters?

I'm with most of the others on this question, and my answer is no, you don't have to be an excellent, piss-lemonade-good--cook to become a Chef.  Take Wayne Gretzky for example--the great one, don't have to tell you how great a hockey player he was, but he made a (deleted) coach.  Terrible.  And that is what a Chef is, a coach. 

And yet, you can't be a good coach unless you are a decent player--not great, but decent.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

A chef needs to know food, but s/he doesn't necessarily have to be a great line great cook.  Heck, maybe not even a good one.  Kitchens by and large though are set up in a such a way that it takes a bit of bravado and macho bluster to run them.  It would be hard to imagine a real shoemaker having the respect of the staff, even if they had some great creative ideas.  At some point the average kitchen crew is like a pack of stray dogs; the Alpha does have to nip at the mongrels occasionally to keep the respect of the pack.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> A chef needs to know food, but s/he doesn't necessarily have to be a great line great cook. Heck, maybe not even a good one. Kitchens by and large though are set up in a such a way that it takes a bit of bravado and macho bluster to run them. It would be hard to imagine a real shoemaker having the respect of the staff, even if they had some great creative ideas. At some point the average kitchen crew is like a pack of stray dogs; the Alpha does have to nip at the mongrels occasionally to keep the respect of the pack.


Finally a bit of reality here.

Experiences have shown me that the person in charge does not necessarily have to know everything about the job.

Doesn't matter what industry.

We seem to think (collectively) that our industry is special.

IT IS NOT!!!

In every job you're going to find individuals in charge that have little or no experience but are good enough managers that it doesn't matter.

IMPOSSIBLE......NOT IN A RESTAURANT?????

Yeah right.

Also....there are many shoemakers out there in charge of kitchens and the crew walk all over them. Your right...how can you have respect for the leader of the pack when that leader lacks all the traits and knowledge nor has one creative bone in their body?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

If you are supposed to be running a single outlet restaurant then you probably have to be a decent line cook.  Not great, decent enough to not get stepped on by the staff.


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

Might be hard to get the respect of your cooks if you can't jump on any one of their stations and work it faster, cleaner, and with more accuracy and efficiency than them.


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## kaiquekuisine (Apr 11, 2013)

Well im basically with the others on this one. 

But im agreeing more with Foodpump , Phaedrus , and Guts on this one. 

You can be a good chef , and just be a decent cook or be a great cook and be a horrible chef. 

The chef at the restaurant im working at now is a great cook , but she cant lead at all.... ( first head chef job and she has less then 3 yrs cooking exp )

4 days ago during service we were packed with tickets on the window , and she wasnt feeling that great. She spent all of service in the bathroom , one cook we dont know where the eff was and me and one other line cook did the whole service. Dont get me wrong she cooks great , but in no way does she lead. When she finally came out fo the bathroom we had tickets in the window , and one less person on the line , she was so lost i just told her to let us handle it , and well she did..... left the kitchen to do idk what , and we finished service early without delaying one ticket. 

Im also one of those who believes that a great chef has to at least be able to get ont he line when a cook flakes being able to do at least a decent to good job without messing up the synergy.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

interesting discussion.

the points kaiquecuisine mentioned, with the example of the chef not being a lead, gave me a lightbulb moment.

found myself nodding and suddenly a coin dropped.

also can say this situation happens in more restaurants than we honestly want to know.

pity, isn't it.

so, when we come to conclusions, what makes a great chef?

someone you want to follow through the gates of hell

someone who can jump into your place and do it all better and faster

but which SAME someone doesn't forget that even in the kitchen team, we all are human beings

someone who can lead no matter whats going on in the kitchen and how high the tickets piling up

someone who has lots of knowledge about what he's doing food and technique wise and wanting to share eventually

others?


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Who would I follow?

The one who:

Is aware of what is happening and
Knows what needs to be done and in what order and
Knows who can best handle the task and
Sees to it that everything else is getting done without getting lost doing something.
The Chef's job is managing the kitchen and making the decisions necessary to accomplish the task at hand.

When a Chef steps onto the line, it better be VERY temporary because whenever the Chef is "doing something", his/her attention is distracted away from where it should be directed, seeing to it that the kitchen is running smoothly and every task is being handled well.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

You have a good point, PeteMcCracken, but it depends a lot on the restaurant. Unless you're a chef/owner you're not the one writing the job specification.  "Chef" might literally mean 'head of the kitchen' but there's a lot of different ways this is implemented.  I've worked for owners and GMs that really didn't want the chef on the line at all, but preferred him/her to be on the pass working expo, supervising the staff.  In some places the Chef is purely a pencil pushing bureaucrat, writing menus, placing orders, juggling inventories and working with Excel.  In other places the Chef is expected to work a certain ratio on the line.  The owners of my current restaurant spec the line/office split to ideally be 40/60 in some locations and 70/30 the other way in others.

If the job involves a lot of line cooking then the Chef better be able to cook!


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

You shouldn't expect your cooks to do anything you can't do.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Guts said:


> You shouldn't expect your cooks to do anything you can't do.


That is probably the #1 rule of leading a brigade....


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Guts said:
> 
> 
> > You shouldn't expect your cooks to do anything you can't do.
> ...


I'd change "can't" to "won't" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Lot's of people can cook, not all can manage.


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

BurntMitts82 said:


> Something Ive been thinking about lately. I know not all good line cooks make good chefs but can ok line cooks, meaning not the fastest or most efficient, be good chefs? Im probably the least skilled (most inexperienced as well) cook on the line, and though i improve or try to daily i know im 31 and will probably never fully catch up, however i feel like my ability in terms of organization, knowledge of ingredients and conceptualizing dishes are not the wordt in the kitchen. I made a huge life change to work.at becoming a chef and was wondering what your views were on someone who isnt a line rock star eventually being able to be a good head of a kitchen.


My 2 cents after working with both head/sous chefs who could and could not beast the line:

It depends on the situation. I'm not being sexist here but all (not a mistake, all) head and sous chefs I've worked for that were women could not get it done behind the line. They got those management jobs because they knew what had to be done and displayed qualities that upper management thought would be beneficial. I've also worked for male sous chefs who were awesome behind the line but displayed very little of the other qualities that a chef needs like proper ordering, dealing with personnel professionally and leading the charge without blowing a gasket.

If you don't have one sort of quality (strong line cooking vs. general sous/head chef potential) you need to have have either the smarts or the hustle to display your strongest quality. Make management know through hard work that just because you cant do A doesn't mean you can't do B well. Everyone shines in different categories. I was an average fry cook but a super star on grill. I can plan out fantastic seasonal menus because I'm very analytical but am not super creative on daily specials.* It boils down to what type of management you have and how smart they are to see potential past some flaws, go to a good operation and potential will almost always be unlocked under the right circumstances.*

In one place I've worked everyone knew chef would kill it behind the line when he stepped behind there, he was top dog and walked with swagger. He was a poor expeditor though and lost his cool when tickets started flying in. Everyone respected him though. In another place a sous was super creative and analytical, she made food that our cooks loved to make but it also was kind of a ongoing joke when she hopped behind the line though. She was still respected though because she was good in other areas.

My personal opinion after seeing both sides? A chef needs to good behind the line. They need to command the respect when they step behind there and lead the charge at each and every point, set the example and let them know who is Chef, a title you must earn.


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## kaiquekuisine (Apr 11, 2013)

ehhh .... so far i have had 3 chefs.....

The male chef couldnt cook at all , he was more management type , and was good at following recipes but to make dishes he could literally take all freaking day. 

Now my other 2 chefs were both females. 

The one i have a close relationship too is a beast on the line , me and her would work the line together , she doing meats and me doing pasta and we were a dynamic duo , but.... she was also good at the paperwork. So no i dont think it depends on gender but just overall qualitys of said person. 

The last chef i have as said before cant lead , but she is an amazing line cook. Even though she easily fumbles. 

Basically my opinion is it depends on the individual and not their gender.


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

I'm definitely not saying its a gender thing (I've have worked with a female line cook who was very good) but it just so happens the two women chefs I worked for just happened to not be able to work behind the line.


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## debo (Oct 3, 2013)

Gender has nothing to do it. I've worked with some amazing women line cooks and I've also worked with some great women chefs that could cook their asses off on the line but I have alao worked with one or 2 that can't cook their way out of a paper bag, I've also worked for a few male chefs that were jokes on the line. Its just the nature of the business not everyone can be great at everything, its getting the right people in the right places to make the place run well


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Debo said:


> ... Its just the nature of the business not everyone can be great at everything, its getting the right people in the right places to make the place run well


That's one of the major tasks of a chef!


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## debo (Oct 3, 2013)

True but Not just the chef but also upper management such as the f&b director, GM and owners. Its a team effort the owner and upper management need to know the strengths and weakness' of all of their employees even themselves. 
In a perfect world the Chef would be the best line cook in the place, great with paperwork and a visionary when it comes to menu writing and food. But its just not that way in the real world alot of places will take the chef that is good with numbers and has great food how they perform on the line isn't always a big concern because you dont want your head chef on the line micro managing when they need to be looking at the bigger picture. All of the chefs I've had that are not great on the line will have a very strong support staff and strong sous. 
The original question was if you had to be a great line cook to be a good chef and the answer is no. Its a their job to make sure it food goes out good so if the chef isn't the best line cook then the owner or upper management need to k ow that and give the chef the money and support to be able to have and pay great line cooks and a beast of a sous chef. 
all chefs want to be the best at everything they do that's just the mentality of a good chef but a great one will know where they need help and be smart enough to get it


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Debo said:


> The original question was if you had to be a great line cook to be a good chef and the answer is no.


Depends upon the place. In a lot of small independant places, the position of chef requires working the line during service, along with paperwork, menu writing, etc. etc. etc.


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## debo (Oct 3, 2013)

I agree that's what I was saying about the owner and other management, if that's what they need in a chef then that's what they need to look for. Not every chef is the right fit for every resturant


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> Depends upon the place. In a lot of small independant places, the position of chef requires working the line during service, along with paperwork, menu writing, etc. etc. etc.


Don't forget jack of all trades, teacher to FOH invalids, prep master, dishwasher bailer-outer, sysco a$$-reamer, babysitter to our "less intelligent" kitchen staff, fight breaker upper, Sunday fryer cleaner............

Ahhh small places! Love 'em and hate 'em!


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## madchef2013 (Apr 22, 2013)

You know this question comes up more often than you might think.

This is what I have experienced - the farther up the line you go the worse it gets. The chefs running Michelin starred or Beard kitchens can't work a line to save their lives. It's been too long and their skills are no longer what they once were. They are amazing at inspiration, teaching, direction, etc - but working a line, not so much. Make no mistake here - once upon a time they were amazing line cooks, at least most of them.

The chefs that do work lines are typically not in that environment. They are in restaurants that a re a few steps down and they never really stopped working a line. Case in point, one of the best line cooks I have ever met/worked for was a chef-owner of a small restaurant. His name was Gerard, he is from France. Seriously he is hands down the best technical line cook I have ever seen, anywhere, in any country. However, his food and his menu lacks a certain sophistication that should be there for someone with his experience.

In my humble opinion it seems the farther up you go the worse your line skills get. So can you be a great chef without being a great line cook, absolutely, you just need to get into the right kitchen and work up from there.

One caveat: While I believe it is true that you can do this I don't think it's possible to become a chef if you are a really lousy line cook.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

You do have to work the line with some regularity to keep your hand in the game and keep your timing down.


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## notswedishchef (Oct 24, 2013)

Good chef means so many different things to different people.  Listen you're 31 and sounds like you haven't been in the game for a longtime.....all of this takes experience, reps....trial & error...but to me....a Good Chef....is someone who can work the line efficiently, deftly slot into any station assess problems and make corrective actions.  Holds a strong palette, displays excellent technique, extensive knowledge of the food you are producing (i.e. sources, vendors, ingredients, etc)....high level of professionalism in dealing with staff, vendors, customers, etc. Goes above and beyond to improve the idea of "team" and is consistently trying to make him/herself and the team and as a result, the restaurant, better.  Be the calming inflluence when s%$% goes sideways....being a shrewd business person....understanding how to make $ from food. 

That's a good chef.....anything else....well, u get the idea.

Not saying you have to be the rockstar of everything and that you're not going to have some of your guys who can do it faster......like others have said...you teach....they do.....but you have to be good at doing to be able to teach it well. 

Gender means nothing in a kitchen.  I have worked with cooks of both sexes.....some can kill it, others are deadweight.  To make generalizations about sex and worthiness is in poor taste.


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