# Thawing Meats Incorrectly



## maxs (Oct 29, 2012)

I have heard of restaurants thawing meats (poultry, lamb legs, etc) at room temperature on the speed rack over night. I know this is wrong (I've taken ServSafe twice). But apparently this practice is very common. How are these restaurants NOT making people sick?

The only safe thawing methods are in the refrigerator or under cool running water.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The practice is hardly common, at least in my experience.  I don't recall seeing it done in the last 25 years of working in restaurant kitchens.  Where are you seeing this done?


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## inabox (Nov 27, 2006)

Last time I did my safe food handlers course (canadian) I asked about thawing under warm water. My argument was that if I have an individual portion say a 400 veal cutlet it'll thaw in under to mins of warm water. Then it's getting cooked and served right away.

The health inspector teaching the course said yes if I waliked in and saw that I wouldn't have a problem. The cold water rulls is there so people don't try and do hole turkeys under hot water because that will make someone sick. 

So basically he said individual portions under warm water are ok for strive if using right away.

I only use this as my emergency method. 

I personly wouldn't leave food overy night. But look at how it is handled in the 3rd world. The locals don't get to much food poisoning.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

> I personly wouldn't leave food overy night. But look at how it is handled in the 3rd world. The locals don't get to much food poisoning.


Do you have evidence to back that up? From what I've heard foodborne illness is just one of many diseases that kills millions in what we condescendingly call the "Third World". But even if that's true it's not really relevant to food safety in North America. If you're talking South America or sub-Saharan Africa then they aren't consuming the products of factory farming the way we do in the US and Canada. A hundred years ago salmonella and e-coli weren't really big issues because we didn't raise animals that spend their entire life cycles living in feces a foot deep or defecating on each other in stacks of little cages. Cattle in feed lots carry a lot more pathogens than you'd get hunting and eating wild game. Again, a hundred years ago it was pretty safe to eat raw eggs but that's not remotely the case today.

Even before the advent of Germ Theory people learned how to preserve and handle food safely. To be sure people got sick and died from food poisoning but they still do circa 2017 with all of the advances in modern medicine. We eat pickles, saurkraut and canned food today without thinking much about them but remember those were all invented to preserve food before we had refrigeration. Same for fermentation, drying and smoking of food staples.


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Quick remark about the 3rd world, specifically for sub saharan africa

A lot of meat is bought alive, especially goat and chicken. They are slaughtered and cooked almost immediately and eaten.

Left over food is kept outside fridges and freezers, as not many people in the villages posses them. It is then reheated till steaming hot and eaten the next day.

Beef is bought from shops or open air markets and is always eaten well done

This especially applies to the villages.

In the towns and cities it can be a total different story as a middle class is evolving with all the mod coms (you would be surprised)


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

Having worked in the Caribbean, the South Pacific, Mexico and Asia things are different.  Yes, I thaw things overnight on a speed rack.  In the morning its thawed out but still cold.  It either gets refridgerated then or is cooked.  And spending years living and traveling in "3rd" world countries you would be surprised how much stupidity or mishandeling of food it takes to actually get people sick.  The USA/ EU has over the top sanitation laws but they have over the top laws on everything.  It is designed for peoples safety so I guess its good.  The last restaurant I ran in the South Pacific was an all Phillipino staff.  It was crazy taking over with absoutly no (western standards) of sanitation.  I literally didn't eat there for the first week I took over throwing out any thing the slight bit shady.  I taught them a lot about sanitation but I also learned the way they have been doing things for hundreds/ thousands of years and surviving.  Long story short is Sanitation is common sense.  Like usual the USA/ Western Culture makes everything sound scary and more dangerous than it actually is. This isn't Kitchen Nightmares or Restaurant Impossible where the chef "IS GOING TO KILL SOMEONE"!!  and we are shutting the restaurant down!!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I remember my time in Singapore in the 90's. Pork was never refrigerated in the open markets, chicken neither, goat and lamb were always frozen and hung invariably, under a naked 100 watt lightbulb. Fish was kept on ice.

Singapore is by no means a 3rd world country, and has infrastructure and industry that puts most western countries to shame.

I always faced the challenge of thawing meats there. For some reason no cook in S'pore at that time could get past the mentality of soaking frozen proteins in water. Thawing overnight in a fridge was a foreign concept and generally mistrusted. Municipal water was always p*ss warm, crystal clean, but warm, cold water only exists in your fridge.

I believe by the early 2000's a law was put in place to ensure all pork was refrigerated at all times.

No major food borne illness break outs to speak of in the 5 years I was there.

Just my 2cents, thats all.....


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Humans have survived for millenia without any health codes but bottom line- if you're operating a business in North America, follow the applicable health codes.  Problem solved, problem stayin' solved!


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## hchaz (Feb 23, 2017)

People get minor food born illness all the time and don't realize it. Have you ever woken up in the middle of the night with the sweats and worse? Then you have the people who just ate at a restaurant and state they got sick immediately after eating (wrong). The food codes are set to protect the majority of people. This would include children, elders and others who have a compromised immune system. Have you ever gone to a restaurant and see a cook in the heat of service run into the bathroom and then 30 sec later come out straight back to the kitchen? 
I think some cultures become immune to certain illness also. I had a wife one time....Filipino, they would cook rice and fish in the morning and leave it on the table all day in 80+ deg weather and as family would come by throughout the day, just help themselves.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Good info here.


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## Hank (Sep 8, 2015)

I have read about ServSafe practices here many times and understand their purpose.  However I often thaw meat on the counter and more often in hot water.  I do this regularly with beef, chicken, pork, and fish.  I know other home cooks who do the same.  Once it's thawed or mostly thawed I either use it or put it in the refrigerator.  How much risk am I taking?


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## hchaz (Feb 23, 2017)

Thawing under hot water, in addition to effecting safety, effects quality of your product. It's most obvious with chicken. Thaw chicken under hot water and it starts turning white...because it's cooking. try this test. Take 2 properly frozen filet mignon, thaw one in the fridge and thaw the second in your hot water. Cook them up and let us know your findings.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

hchaz said:


> Thawing under hot water, in addition to effecting safety, effects quality of your product. It's most obvious with chicken.


Eh...no. Its most obvious with fish and seafood. Run frozen fish in even lukewarm water, and it'll poach.


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## chefonfire (May 8, 2010)

I have good results with portioned vac pack fish cooked sous vide from frozen. 
Leaving meat to thaw room temp overnight? No.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

hchaz said:


> People get minor food born illness all the time and don't realize it. Have you ever woken up in the middle of the night with the sweats and worse?


Got a problem with that. People get sick, yeah, and then what?

They see their doctor. Doctors know food borne illnesses, and if they get similiar complaints, they go to the health insoector. This is the way the system works in N. America and Europe, and I for one kinda like it that way.

Yeah, and then what? Ye olde healthe inspector does his/het job and investigates, thats what. And 9 times out of 10 traces the illness to the source. And the restaurant in question either gets fined heavily or shut down. And suffers the worst P.R. imaginable and in most cases doesn't survive the ordeal.


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## inabox (Nov 27, 2006)

foodpump said:


> Got a problem with that. People get sick, yeah, and then what?
> 
> They see their doctor. Doctors know food borne illnesses, and if they get similiar complaints, they go to the health insoector. This is the way the system works in N. America and Europe, and I for one kinda like it that way.
> 
> Yeah, and then what? Ye olde healthe inspector does his/het job and investigates, thats what. And 9 times out of 10 traces the illness to the source. And the restaurant in question either gets fined heavily or shut down. And suffers the worst P.R. imaginable and in most cases doesn't survive the ordeal.


That's how its suposed to work. That's not nessasrey how it works in realy life. I would wager that less the 40% of people will actually go to the doctor for mild food poisoning.

Also I would say the health department shouldn't not just shut someone down but they should work with them to teach them what there doing wrong and how to fix it.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

A-yup, thats what virtually all N.American health depts do as well: Offer serv-safe courses. They run them they issue the certificates. Its up to the employer to demand those certificates and boot out the ones who do stupid things.


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## hchaz (Feb 23, 2017)

foodpump said:


> Got a problem with that. People get sick, yeah, and then what?
> Not really sure where your headed with that but yeah I have a problem with kitchen and dining room staff that don't follow proper sanitation protocol. Sanitation should be a basic instinct to everyone who works in food service and it's the chef or kitchen managers job to insure this. Most cities, the health inspector might visit once a year and they don't spend that much time when they do. And, most people don't go to their doctor when they wake up in the middle of the night vomiting and having intestinal issues. In milder cases, these go away. Call the health department, they may show up in a month unless it's multiple reports...but, most people don't report it.
> http://www.foodborneillness.com/salmonella_food_poisoning/
> 
> ...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The figures I've seen indicate that 90% of foodborne illnesses are caused by home cooks.  I can't swear for the veracity of that claim but it has the ring of truth.  After all, how many home cooks are ServeSafe certified?  How often is your home kitchen inspected by the Dept of Public Health?  How many home cooks practice FIFO and religiously label, date and rotate food?  I'm guessing that number is pretty low in all cases.  Obviously there's no law saying you need to have training to cook at home but restaurants in North America are pretty highly regulated (the degree of regulation and the quality of the inspectors of course varies).


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

I usually just sit on my food I need to thaw, mother hen style...is that not OK?


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## hchaz (Feb 23, 2017)

From what I've seen, and check the CDC website, you are doubling your risk of getting a food borne illness when you eat out...


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## Hank (Sep 8, 2015)

hchaz said:


> Thawing under hot water, in addition to effecting safety, effects quality of your product. It's most obvious with chicken. Thaw chicken under hot water and it starts turning white...because it's cooking. try this test. Take 2 properly frozen filet mignon, thaw one in the fridge and thaw the second in your hot water. Cook them up and let us know your findings.


I guess I was unclear, it's not really hot water, it's warm water from the tap and chicken thaws more quickly but is still pink and raw. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just wondering if this chicken is more prone to problems.


foodpump said:


> hchaz said:
> 
> 
> > Thawing under hot water, in addition to effecting safety, effects quality of your product. It's most obvious with chicken.
> ...


So if I've been unsure it's with fish. I often do fish for lunch and don't necessarily plan ahead. After thawing in warm water it seems to cook more quickly than I might expect and is sometimes a little rubbery sometimes. I'm thinking thawing this way is a mistake.


hchaz said:


> From what I've seen, and check the CDC website, you are doubling your risk of getting a food borne illness when you eat out...


Well, I've only barfed my guts out one time, for a couple hours, and it was when I ate out, albeit it was a mixed seafood dish at a poker room


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## hchaz (Feb 23, 2017)

Hank said:


> I guess I was unclear, it's not really hot water, it's warm water from the tap and chicken thaws more quickly but is still pink and raw. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just wondering if this chicken is more prone to problems.
> 
> So if I've been unsure it's with fish. I often do fish for lunch and don't necessarily plan ahead. After thawing in warm water it seems to cook more quickly than I might expect and is sometimes a little rubbery sometimes. I'm thinking thawing this way is a mistake.
> 
> Well, I've only barfed my guts out one time, for a couple hours, and it was when I ate out, albeit it was a mixed seafood dish at a poker room


I've barfed my share, the majority of times because alcohol content. Fish is the worst offender when it is force thawed, so foodpump, you are 100%!


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## Hank (Sep 8, 2015)

Well, yeah. I meant food related hurling. Alcohol is a whole other story /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

I just wrote an article on FS&S:

" In 2011 the CDC published estimates that food-borne illness affects 48 million Americans each year; 128,000 are hospitalized and 3,000 of them die (https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/2011-foodborne-estimates.html). As of 2011, there were roughly 312 million people in the US. That means that roughly 15% of this country's citizens were affected, at least once, by food-borne illness. Who was responsible?

Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of May 2011, there were roughly 2.79M food prep and serving workers (https://www.bls.gov/oes/2011/may/oes353021.htm). For the sake of emphasizing our responsibilities as ethical and concerned food industry workers, let us pretend that fifty percent of all above-mentioned food-borne illnesses occurred outside of the home. If 24 million people are affected by food-borne illness annually, and there are 2.79 million cooks and servers, that means that, statistically, each of us gets roughly 9 people sick per year. Some of them _die_."


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

RedBeerd Cantu said:


> I just wrote an article on FS&S:
> 
> " In 2011 the CDC published estimates that food-borne illness affects 48 million Americans each year; 128,000 are hospitalized and 3,000 of them die (https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/2011-foodborne-estimates.html). As of 2011, there were roughly 312 million people in the US. That means that roughly 15% of this country's citizens were affected, at least once, by food-borne illness. Who was responsible?
> 
> Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of May 2011, there were roughly 2.79M food prep and serving workers (https://www.bls.gov/oes/2011/may/oes353021.htm). For the sake of emphasizing our responsibilities as ethical and concerned food industry workers, let us pretend that fifty percent of all above-mentioned food-borne illnesses occurred outside of the home. If 24 million people are affected by food-borne illness annually, and there are 2.79 million cooks and servers, that means that, statistically, each of us gets roughly 9 people sick per year. Some of them _die_."


Sorry, but I think thats a load of shit. People eat every day around the world. 


RedBeerd Cantu said:


> I just wrote an article on FS&S:
> 
> " In 2011 the CDC published estimates that food-borne illness affects 48 million Americans each year; 128,000 are hospitalized and 3,000 of them die (https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/2011-foodborne-estimates.html). As of 2011, there were roughly 312 million people in the US. That means that roughly 15% of this country's citizens were affected, at least once, by food-borne illness. Who was responsible?
> 
> Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of May 2011, there were roughly 2.79M food prep and serving workers (https://www.bls.gov/oes/2011/may/oes353021.htm). For the sake of emphasizing our responsibilities as ethical and concerned food industry workers, let us pretend that fifty percent of all above-mentioned food-borne illnesses occurred outside of the home. If 24 million people are affected by food-borne illness annually, and there are 2.79 million cooks and servers, that means that, statistically, each of us gets roughly 9 people sick per year. Some of them _die_."


No offense but statistics mean nothing. 95 % of the world doesn't live or think on those terms. Most are happy just to have food. It takes a lot of stupid to give people food borne illness. Once again "some die" sounds pretty scary. I hope you can live with the fact you kill people!!! We cook food, relax. There is no need to make up something to worry about


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## cronker (Mar 3, 2016)

I remember getting really annoyed with my chef when he would thaw prawns under cold running water for literally _hours_ on end.
Such a waste of water.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

hookedcook said:


> Sorry, but I think thats a load of shit. People eat every day around the world.
> 
> No offense but statistics mean nothing. 95 % of the world doesn't live or think on those terms. Most are happy just to have food. It takes a lot of stupid to give people food borne illness. Once again "some die" sounds pretty scary. I hope you can live with the fact you kill people!!! We cook food, relax. There is no need to make up something to worry about


Hi hooked cook.

95% may live with questionable hygiene and even thrive, and by all accounts they do.

But we in N. America and Europe are dealing with N.Americans and Europeans as our customers, the ones who pay us money for good food and safe practices. Yes, we do get violenlty ill if food handlers are stupid, and yes people do die from food poisoning or have their organs (kidneys, bowels, stomach, etc) seriously compromised for the rest of their lives because of ignorance or just plain laziness.

Here's another way of looking at the situation:

You are preparing food in a care facility, your guests have compromised immune systems, or are otherwise seriously ill. Do you, as a food handler, ignore safe food handeling practices, ignore cleaning and sanitation procedures because you know that 95% of the rest of the world can tolerate it?

We, as cooks, know better.


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Hi hooked cook.
> 
> 95% may live with questionable hygiene and even thrive, and by all accounts they do.
> 
> ...


As a chef taking a job it is your responsibility to keep your guests safe and healthy. I have a captains license and when I take guests on an excursion its my responsibility to keep them safe and bring them back home. If you choose to cook at an old persons home you need to be extra careful. Again common sense, if you cook at a nursing home( which I did at 15) be sanitary. Go for it and above and beyond. But we in the Caribbean, learned a long time ago that N. America and Europe has made a bunch of loopy bullshit "safety" laws made by people who have never spent a day in a kitchen As a cook I know better to rely on my common sense and trust that


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I see MaxS hasn't come back yet to join in the discussion but nonetheless I'll throw in a rant of my own.

Having taken Serv Safe or it's equivalent for many years I'll say that while the program and test have become overly complicated and in some ways detrimentally so, it still serves the purpose of increasing awareness of food safety and insuring that there is at least a base line of knowledge for people to work with.

Contrary to your opinion that 


hookedcook said:


> It takes a lot of stupid to give people food borne illness. Once again "some die" sounds pretty scary.


 It doesn't take a lot of stupid people. It takes one uninformed or misinformed person. People do die because of food borne illness. (Look up the Jack in the Box incident) Common sense is not common. No one is born with the knowledge of what the safe temperature range is or what circumstances commonly cause food to spoil. Serv Safe or its' equivalent makes sure that food workers have a basic understanding of food safety and the limits of food handling.

I can bore you to death with the stories of my disagreements with the NYS Health Department and the ways in which they over reach and over regulate but the essentials of food safety need to be explained to every food worker before they handle food for the general public. Food illness outbreaks in North America are documented and investigated. I don't know what takes place in other countries or what hazards the rest of the world puts up with when eating out. I certainly don't wish to find out first hand the hard way. Even in our regulated industry here in the US there are far too many food service operators who disregard basic food safety and don't understand essential cleanliness standards.

As you have no doubt experienced as a boat captain, not everyone understands or follows safe boat handling procedures or seems to know the common "courtesies" of water travel. That's why you had training and licensing as a Captain and the yahoos who just bought a boat are required to take a basic course in marine knowledge. Learning by experience can sometimes be fatal.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

I trust that you all remember the fact that health codes and health laws here in the US are the MINIMUM standard, not THEEE standard.  It seems to me that very important fact has been lost amidst all the back and forth in this thread. 

Cheers!


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

hookedcook said:


> But we in the Caribbean, learned a long time ago that N. America and Europe has made a bunch of loopy bullshit "safety" laws made by people who have never spent a day in a kitchen As a cook


Here is a brief list of countries in Caribbean where servsafe training exists, there are others as well


Antigua & Barbuda
Belize
Guyana
St Vincent & The Grenadines


The Bahamas
Dominica
Jamaica
St Kitts & Nevis


Barbados
Grenada
St Lucia
Trinidad & Tobago
When I moved to the BVI in 2007, a servsafe food handlers card was required for* anyone* (FOH/BOH) working in a restaurant. California (where I moved from) wasn't even that strict at the time. Arrh Matey!!!


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

One of the missing factors in this discussion is modern farming, production, and distribution practices and I think it is the major reason that modern "developed" countries need tighter regulations that 3rd World nations or our ancestors did.  Today, modern farming methods tend to pack animals much closer together so it is much easier for micro organisms to spread, infecting many more animals than in places that don't follow factory farming methods.  Next, if a contaminated cow does get through and it's meat is used to make hamburger that e. coli  is now possibly getting mixed into thousands and thousands of pounds of ground beef where those little buggies will happily multiply infecting the whole batch.  In less modern society and times, chances are that meat just fed that single family, maybe 2-3 families at most, so yes, people might still get sick, but there was no major outbreak where hundreds of people got sick.  And again, remember if you are only raising a few cows or a few chickens the chances of them carrying those organisms is much less likely to begin with.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi hooked cook,

Can you give us an example of loopy "b.s" safety laws?


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

foodpump said:


> Hi hooked cook,
> 
> Can you give us an example of loopy "b.s" safety laws?


For one, is, the almost fanatical, emphasis on gloves for touching RTE foods. I think it gives both cooks and customers a false sense of security. I don't know how many places I've walked into and watched cooks put on a pair of gloves, do 12 different tasks and never change those gloves in between, but I bet if you asked them if they were handling food safely they would say 'yes' because they were wearing gloves. When I was coming up in the business, we never wore, gloves but we washed our hands a million times a day, and I would much rather see that than cooks in gloves. But nowadays, even though the health department wants to see your hand washing sink they care more about using gloves, which again I feel gives a false sense of security to most of those involved.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

hookedcook said:


> No offense but statistics mean nothing.


The absolute best part of this is that the very next sentence begins with...guess what?...a _statistic_


hookedcook said:


> 95 % of the world


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

Pete said:


> For one, is, the almost fanatical, emphasis on gloves for touching RTE foods. I think it gives both cooks and customers a false sense of security. I don't know how many places I've walked into and watched cooks put on a pair of gloves, do 12 different tasks and never change those gloves in between, but I bet if you asked them if they were handling food safely they would say 'yes' because they were wearing gloves. When I was coming up in the business, we never wore, gloves but we washed our hands a million times a day, and I would much rather see that than cooks in gloves. But nowadays, even though the health department wants to see your hand washing sink they care more about using gloves, which again I feel gives a false sense of security to most of those involved.


That's a big one. My last corporate job in the states in 2010. The cooks had to sign a contract to wear cut gloves. You had to put latex gloves over the shark glove. Try a bruinose with that. My cooks would cut the tips of the gloves off not realizing it and would end up in the food. Long story short I went against corporate and told them not to use them. 3 months later had a extern get a small cut, I was up in the office so she told the foh manager. Ski patrol was called for a cut requiring no stiches??? I have to answer to corporate on why my line cook cut her self when she signed a contract to always wear a cut glove so in theory you can't cut yourself. Fun times. I'm all about not getting people sick. But you do realize serve safe is a business to make money. Any yahoo can pass the test. Do they actually use it, who knows?? Serving safe food is common sense for a proffesional chef


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> The absolute best part of this is that the very next sentence begins with...guess what?...a _statistic[/
> I]
> LOL. You got me! Very perceptive for a carib girl.
> 
> _


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I still disagree with the common sense remark. A "professional" chef has undergone training, whether apprenticeship, schooling or prior experience. So experienced people have explained and trained that individual  in "professional" kitchens for many years before becoming a chef. Again, no one is born with the knowledge of safe food temperatures and safe food practices. One way or another, you need to learn it from someone else.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

hookedcook said:


> _LOL. You got me! Very perceptive for a carib girl._


I will go you one better...here is a picture of your carib girl





  








king.png




__
cheflayne


__
May 3, 2014


__
1


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> I will go you one better...here is a picture of your carib girl
> 
> 
> 
> ...







  








duc.jpg




__
hookedcook


__
Mar 12, 2017








You showed me yours, I'll show you mine. My Italian girlfriend. Very moody and costs me time, money and patience to keep her happy. When shes happy, I'm in love. We have a long distance relationship but she is always waiting for me back in the states. Oh yeah, she will hurt or kill me one day. I know it but I can't resist the fun in the meantime. Life is good. Cheers


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

chefwriter said:


> I still disagree with the common sense remark. A "professional" chef has undergone training, whether apprenticeship, schooling or prior experience. So experienced people have explained and trained that individual in "professional" kitchens for many years before becoming a chef. Again, no one is born with the knowledge of safe food temperatures and safe food practices. One way or another, you need to learn it from someone else.


I surrender, yes you need to be taught something to learn it. Its good to have standards


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

hookedcook said:


> Sorry, but I think thats a load of shit. People eat every day around the world.
> 
> No offense but statistics mean nothing. 95 % of the world doesn't live or think on those terms. Most are happy just to have food. It takes a lot of stupid to give people food borne illness. Once again "some die" sounds pretty scary. I hope you can live with the fact you kill people!!! We cook food, relax. There is no need to make up something to worry about


Yes, people eat every day around the world. That's how we as a species stay alive.

Statistics mean nothing? Statistics summarize, with a certain amount of specificity, proven facts. You are correct that most people don't live or think in these terms. I'd venture to say that those that do are those who hold such things in esteem, which is paramount to our profession. It does NOT take stupidity to give people food borne illness, merely ignorance, or a lackadaisical approach to the fundamental tenets of our occupation.

"Some die," wasn't meant to sound scary; it was meant to underscore the results of much strenuous study on the part of facts-into-numbers wonks who occupy themselves with work that provides the free world with information meant to improve knowledge and lives the world over. Don't worry, though. I caught a drip of the sarcasm you bathed that statement in. Being that I'm not a sociopath, but possess some characteristics of an empathetic human, were I to kill someone with my cooking, I would put my knives away for good, I'm sure.

"There is no need to make up something to worry about."

Is this where you stand on climate change, too?

Allow me to add that I'm VERY pleased that you born with an innate gift for common sense when it comes to Food Safety and Sanitation. Just imagine: the rest of us had to be educated about it! At our own expense!

Peace.


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## hookedcook (Feb 8, 2015)

RedBeerd Cantu said:


> Yes, people eat every day around the world. That's how we as a species stay alive.
> 
> Statistics mean nothing? Statistics summarize, with a certain amount of specificity, proven facts. You are correct that most people don't live or think in these terms. I'd venture to say that those that do are those who hold such things in esteem, which is paramount to our profession. It does NOT take stupidity to give people food borne illness, merely ignorance, or a lackadaisical approach to the fundamental tenets of our occupation.
> 
> ...


Hi Red Beerd, no worries. I don't take life or cooking to seriously. It's just a job for me. I'm good at what I do and am just hanging out in Panama now getting paid to do it. The sun still comes up every morning, what you choose to worry about each day is up to you. Cheers


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## maxs (Oct 29, 2012)

Hi again.
What I always told my staff (when I owned my own restaurant) is that the cook is not so much concerned with the healthiest of his/her customers (a strapping 20 year old cook will say, "I've eaten a lot worse and never get sick"). Rather you are observing practices that will protect the most vulnerable of your customers: toddlers and the elderly who often have compromised immune systems. It is a huge responsibility to cook for for thousands of strangers. Safety must be the top priority, way above flavor and value. 

As for those who claim that in less hygienic countries, people do just fine, well why do you think in wild west usa circa 1870 people only lived to 45? Tainted food must have been one of the causes, no? And isn't it also possible that in less hygienic cultures people have built up a tolerance to food borne bacteria that we in the refrigerated world may be now lacking?
Why risk hurting even one person, when it's easy enough to thaw things properly?

I do agree that the glove thing does more harm than good. I see workers all the time make a sandwich, then use the touch screen pos with the same gloves on, then go back and make a sandwich with same gloves. Without the gloves, they might wash their hands between tasks. Might.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I have yet to find any pair of gloves that can make well informed choices before taking action. Gloves do not have the ability to decide how they will be used.

Education is still the most viable solution.


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