# FOH steering the customers



## sierra11b (Jan 13, 2006)

I work with a FOH under the leadership of a relatively new, corporate-style, do-everything-it-takes-and-more manager.

Recently though, the level of service we're willing to provide our guests has gotten out of hand to the point were I'm constantly having to alter a particular dish I created (and otherwise get good reviews) for numerous guests tastes. I'm not talking about someone that comes and that cannot have salt, but rather regulars and semi-regulars that keep coming in for the same dish that wasn't quite to their liking before. Just last week the GM asked if I could keep one chicken out of the brine this time for Ms. Robinson as she did not like the taste of the chicken the last two times. She then sent back a "compliment" saying the dish is improving. Why not suggest something else to her?

And it doesn't stop there... ever since the new manager has taken over (i've been working here longer than him) substitutions have run wild to the point it comprises most of the tickets hanging on a busy night are a foot long for parties of 4 and 5 (which jeopardizes ticket times and execution as you all know). Just last week... The server: "The customer wants a side of Bordelaise and I said you guys could..." Me: "Why did you say that! I've told you guys to always ask the kitchen first! I can only give him veal demi glace." The server comes back: "Ummm, I meant Bearnaise... we can do that, right?... I told him we could." Me: "Sigh... get the GM" GM comes marching in: "Bernaise is just when you add pepper to Bordelaise, right? Can't you do that?" 

My crew even angrily made a map-like menu of what we serve to help the servers suggest substitutions and combinations... "Oh then you'd like a side of A6 and G8 instead of the regular A2 and H5 that comes with the dish...." They are very supportive of me as the EC in trying to keep the kitchen straight because they know this GM is living up my Boss' butt.

And it's always the same servers that say, "I just don't get why I always have the picky tables!" My question is when is enough enough? Are they steering customers to substitutions because they don't know the menu completely and are comfortable suggesting safe alternatives? I test them all the time which leads me to believe they know they can get away with murdering the kitchen on the GM's watch. Or are the customers demanding more from restaurants they assume could be struggling in this horrible economy?


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

I find that once you begin allowing substitutions, you will make them more and more.
And then you can never reign it in.
If that many people are requesting sub's, maybe it's time to take a look at redoing the menu.
There is nothing wrong with giving a customer what they want, but you should have an acceptable system in place to accomplish this without jeopardizing the dining experience of the remainder of the guests.

You're right, all requests should be just that, a request, which needs to be confirmed with the kitchen.
On a slower night most requests can be accommodated, on a busy one, not so much.

I worked in a place that had an open menu, breakfast all day.
I worked the night shift and was always trying to put the nicest dinners out, and breakfast, while easy for those that can do it (and I'm one of them) is still problematic to work into your dinner service juggling act.
I had a wiatress tell me that a customer requested an extra egg, and all 3 prepared differently, poached, OE and Scram.
I told her that I could do it when I had time, but I couldn't tie up 3 of my 4 burners for one dish during the rush.
She came back and said they were willing to wait, when could I do it.
I told her "just before we close".
Of course the customer was unhappy.

My response has changed for the better over the years, but the same thought goes through my head in these circumstances..."what a pain".


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Just before we close!!!! GREAT ANSWER :lol:


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I love the word ALLOW, when you start allowing the customer to get what they want. I allow this to happen. I will allow this just this one time, don't ask again. I think we should ALLOW the customer to get what the H--- he/she wants. Remember how we all felt on the day the restaurant opened, nothing was a pain in the Butt that night. We welcome you with open arms, we allow what every you want. Keep on not ALLOWING and you will be serving empty seats............I allow you to quote me......Bill


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Personally, as a customer and a person who works on the other side I think there is allowing and there's having the customers run roughshod over you. In the end I think the business-customer relationship is reciprocal: Treat them with respect, courtesy and understanding and they should respond in kind. Turning into the customer's slave to their every whim just seems like an arrangement that isn't benefittial in the long run.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

You give 'em an inch and they take a mile. I worked a place that allowed people to substitute/ add on anything and everything with no substitution charge. I had a ticket once that measured 8" for four bacon cheese burgers. This on a buy one/ get one free day. Management couldn't see the problem with that. They couldn't see the half hour entry by waitstaff on the micros, couldn't see the half hour for me to read their "special" B.S. and couldn't see how when you have to keep all that s**t in your head when you have a board full of orders, you're bound to forget something, have to trash what you did and start over. Wasted time. wasted product. My suggestion? If you don't like swiss cheese, either pick it off or order something that doesn't have it. Some other poor slob who ordered something normal has to wait forever for his order because someone else thinks they're "special". And I don't mean people who change one thing. I mean people who have to change the meat, the cheese, the sauce. No this and extra that. Now Hear This: It's a MENU, not a suggestion list. If you deviate from the MENU, you PAY for it. Management, please back your crews on this. They are the ones working the line that see how all this deviation costs everyone in the long run. They are not stupid, they are not lazy. They know how this messes up a kitchen and as long as you don't charge, people will walk all over you. Tell people "Sure. we'll leave off the swiss, but there's a dollar charge for menu deviation." and guess what? They'll eat the swiss. This has been my pet peeve for years because there's a mind set that we're keeping a customer happy, but we tend to not see how we're hurting other customers in terms of longer wait times and increased cost due to waste. Thank Burger King. They're the ones who started the whole have it your way crap.


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## psywise (Nov 26, 2006)

Nicely put!

Generally I'll try to only allow substitutions if there's an actual dietary reason too, ie I have Gluton Free bread on standby for Coeliacs and I'll happily substitute Nuttlex for butter for those who are lactose intolerant.

But if you don't like an ingredient in a dish, then please order a different one. There's reasonings behind combining these ingredients in this way!


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I really wish people had the nerve to tell their customers this in person, so I could get their over flow. The menu is a SUGGESTION not the 10 Commandments. Its to much to put a different kind of Cheese on a burger?????????? Tell the customers to pick it off if they don't like ????????????????? Thanks Burger King for telling people they could have it their way????????????? Well, Isn't this customer service at its best. I can tell the difference in the Chefs that own a restaurant and the ones that dont. I always tell my kitchen, we don't say NO, The restaurant down the street DID, and now their closed. FOR SALE, wonder why........................Keep, NOT giving the customer what they want and you will be singing, Welcome to Burger King can I help you ...........P.S I tell my clients its not if we can do it, its how fast do you want it. If they can't get it from me, they will get it from another company.....................Bill


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I think most of us have forgotten that the customer is always right especially in this economy. If I have a guest that has a kid that wants a burger and fries and I dont serve them I am going have someone run down the road to BK or McD's and get it, put it on a plate and serve it. Remember who pays the bills.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Chefhow, and thats why you are where you are. Thanks for taking care of our families...Bill.................P.S I am easy to take care of in a restaurant, but when someone bends over backwards for my Kids, I never forget it.................


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

There is a great deal of merit in the above. However, the validity depends on the "customer" being informed as well.

For example, a "customer" should not expect a "steakhouse" to serve quiche or a far-eastern restaurant (Chinese, Thai, Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, etc.) to serve hamburgers or hot dogs, or an Italian restaurant to serve stir-fry.

It is an individual choice of the owner/chef to decide whether the "menu" lists the "offerings" or "suggestions". For an establishment like mine, the "kitchen" limits what can be put on a plate. We do not offer any "deep fried foods" for a simple reason, we do not have a "deep fryer", nor do we have a "char-broiler" nor a "walk-in" filled with every imaginable food product.

If your "target market" is the BK/McD/Carls crowd, one should be prepared to compete and do it with a smile.

If not, post your menu where it can be seen BEFORE the customer enters your establishment and do it with a smile.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

While I do agree with you somewhat, there must be *SOME* flexibility to survive. I understand that you cant serve a burger and fries for the stated reasons, but I personally would do whatever possible to make the customer happy and keep them coming back. By going the extra mile on a rare occasion think about the word of mouth free publicity you get. I wouldnt do this on a busy weekend night but if the staff is avaliable than why not? Now I didnt own a QSR or a fast casual but rather a high end, white tablectloth, well known restaurant and these were the lengths that I went to when the economy was good and the cash was growing on trees. These are the things that ppl seem to forget yet this is what seperates good from great and can make a night out with family a memorable experience. Just my .02


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I absolutely concur!

The "key" is "whatever possible" and, unfortunately, there are some "customers" that cannot grasp the fact that there just might be limitations in meeting their requests, including equipment, supplies, and capabilities.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The only time we didn't do something for our customer was if we didn't hav eit in the house. Other wise its done. This post isn't about ordering a burrito in a Italian restaurant,or ordering Lasagna at Mc Donalds. If its possable then it should be done. If it wasn't important to the customer, they wouldn't ask. My problem was when someone said it was to much to change the cheese on a burger, give them an inch and they will take a mile. My feeling is give them what they want, and you may get a pay check. every customer I serve gives my family the quality of live they have today.........Bill


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## lesstalkmoreroc (May 12, 2008)

This thread has been fueled by line cooks who DO NOT know what it takes to succeed in business. All they know is that they have a little more work reading a chit or a quick run to the fridge and it cuts into there smoke break time. C'mon, telling someone to pick the cheese off a burger if they don't want it is absolutely ridiculous. I don't like sweet peppers, should I bite my tongue and just pick them out of my meal because someone in the back doesn't have time for a customer who is paying the establishment a minimum three times the amount of what the actual meal costs not including the bar bill and the tip I leave. 
To all that say I will do whatever it takes to keep my customers happy, you already know this but if you're not know successful theres no doubt you will be soon.


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## fl italian (Mar 2, 2009)

In reading this thread, though not a professional in the kitchen, I am a professional salesperson and NO MATTER WHAT BUSINESS YOU'RE IN: 
_*THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT*_

i've eaten so much crow from my customer's and paid for it out of my pocket. I've done things I said I never would. Why? Because, as a few of you have said, without the customer, you won't have a business. Remember, without the customer walking in the front door, no chef is needed to enter from the back door.

Customer service is not unique to the kitchen and chefs; it's in all our careers.

ANY business that offers good customer service and good products for a fair price NEVER fails....


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

I spent a good many years...too many in fact....practicing a policy called the "Five Easy Pieces Theory". In it's theoretical sense it was a good thing. In a practical sense it was tolerable at best but in a rewards sense it created such a high degree of customer loyalty and anytime I used it outside the original concept that taught me it the rewards far out weighed the challenges it created.

During my career, as I made the fluid (and sometimes not so fluid) movement between Chef and Kitchen Manager (and back again several times), the idea behind the special instruction, substitution or rewriting of the menu by the uneducated and uninformed or just plain picky became less painful. Heck even I do it from time to time. Anyhow, I began to just say to myself that it was for the good of the operation and in turn was a bit of job security. Still I learned that no person in the position of Exec Chef or even KM for that fact could ever rely on the job having any type of security. Unless you owned the joint and that had a whole new set of headaches and insecurities. 

I say that if you have the ingredients on hand make the change. Don't argue, don't delay, for the items you seem to be getting requests for more frequently add it to the menu and certainly don't make the guest feel like they are putting you out when it is their hard earned dollars you are asking them to part with. In other words don't let your ego get in front of your business. In most cases this is the guest talking and the reason we are all here. Yet there are, on more occasions that I care to admit, the servers that go out of their way to rewrite the menu and make suggestions. This I would have to agree on with you. That idea of "leading of the guest through the menu the way they the server see's fit for it to be" is just plain wrong. But a server that will steer a guest away from something they didn't like in the past to something that is on the menu is one that is doing the job correctly. I still can't say enough it's all about taking care of your guests because, after all, that is what they are. They are guests not customers. Thinking of it this way gives you a whole new perspective. Did ya'll ever realize that on average, most that work in this industry will try and do more for the people that come into their home than they will for the people that frequent the establishment they work. Yet they don't get paid for it at home!

Unfortunately the customer is not always right. Especially when you are dealing with unreasonable blowhards. Because of them there have been times in my career I have had to look at guests and apologize we have been unable to make them happy. I have also explained that I have and will continue to try but if they become disruptive to the other guests and ruin their evening I will have to ask them to please move on. It is only fair to the guest that are enjoying themselves.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

The place I'm talking about had a build-a-burger menu where people could order whatever they wanted. They wouldn't do that. They'd have us revamp a menu burger instead. I also had someone order a pizza appertizer, eat it, and as we were putting up their order (on a crazy busy day), decided they didn't want onions on their fajita wrap. They had 30 min. to figure out they didn't like onions. Now I'm supposed to push everyone else's order back so I can remake theirs, not to mention the loss on the one I have to throw away. If it were me eating it, I'd pick the onions off. I have more consideration for other people I guess. I don't go where they work and do that to them, so I guess I don't appreciate them doing it to me. For the record, I have owned my own place. It's still in operation. And sure, you can do extra things when you're slow, but then they come in when it's busy and say "well, they did it for us before, why can't they do it now?" Better to not go there in the first place. The place with all the problems was due to everybody deviating on everything to the point where the kitchen would get so backed up and confused that nothing would go out. Then everyone was complaining about why their food was taking so long. Gee, I wonder?


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey Grey, I think what you are trying to do is run as efficient as possible Kitchen. Thats a great idea, and in most cases, mine included, a work in progress. We don't like to screw up our kitchens, your front line cooks are only there for the wage, and ***** about everything, like most cooks. My only comment is ,you said the customers said they did it for me last time they were there. That may be the reason they came back. you did a great job last time, they figured why not again. I am sure you are a good Chef and care about you business. This is a good problem, something to make a part of the operation. Let me tell you some restaurants would beg to have a chance to be that busy in this economy. The thing with the onions is the customers fault for not saying something sooner, nothing you could do about that.Of course it had to be a Chicken Fajita wrap that had to be cooked. This why we come in here, we all know what your going thru, sometimes its good to say it out loud, so we don't kick the dog...............Take care...........Bill............P.S I did the Washington Beef asso. dinner one time. all the large beef processors in Washington State were there. Steward Anderson and the bunch. I figured Beef people know how to eat beef. I cook all the Primes Med rare........Plates were coming back by the 10's they all wanted well done. GEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ shows how much I know. Prime rib flying on the grill as fast as I could get them on. Burn the suckers. I asked Steward how his Prime was, his answer was, great son, just the way i like.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

Okay, how does my comment put me in either category?


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## won_1983 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you very much for these useful information


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

So Billy, did Stuart's prime have a little green worm on it? It's odd who will order a well done steak. Most farmers will order well done, which makes me wonder if they know someting we don't. That's something a lot of cooks get their nose out of joint over that I never did. I guess it's because my family always ate well done steaks. My crew will b***h when someone orders well, but then they'll look at me and say "Yeah, yeah, we know. They can order it well if they want, it's their steak. But still, what a waste...." It about kills them to do it.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Just Jim;259307 said:


> Okay, how does my comment put me in either category?[/quote
> 
> Did I Quote you?????????? Bill


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey Grey, I went to a restaurant one time, ordered a medium Rare Rib Eye steak, The steak came out frozen. I sent it back, and it came out less frozen. The Chef came out of the Kitchen with his Knife and steel looking at me while sharping his knife. I got up and walked out, with out paying my bill, having my wife walk behind me, just in case he threw the knife.
I have always had crews with strong personalities. I need to remind them who really pays us, the customer. I think we all need a reality check once in a while. I always need to remember why the client picked me to do their food service. The reason they did is because, we do whatever it takes. I feel I need to be an asset to them and not a thorn in their side. I know once me or the crew start saying no, there will be another company waiting in the wings to take over..........take care and remember we all know what your going thru.............Bill


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

ChefBillyB;259377 said:


> You made a blanket statement.
> I was just curious as to where I fit into it.
> 
> It's all good.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey Jim, I guess the word ALLOW, once we ALLOW the customer to make stitutions. I see the Menu as a Guide to what the Restaurant offers. I think with all the different diets, and tastes of our customers we have to bend a bit. In your post you said someone asked for 3 different eggs. and the Waitress came back and said they would wait. Your answer was, "Just before we close" another way of saying Screw them. It's none of my business how you run you business, but thats not custoner servive at its best. 
The long road I took in learning the Restaurant business is lined with making mistakes. The road to success is not makeing the same ones twice......Bill


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Ya know it's a tough decision to decide what and what not to do sometimes. I guess it all comes down....well.....I guess it's wasn't so tough for me. And believe you me I've certainly tried the "well ya know.... the items that are served with the dish are specifically paired with the dish" or the "that's the way we serve things here" explanation a couple times in my career life. With that said... it's my humble professional opinion regarding the idea behind and the practice of the "substitution" is that no matter what, no one's business is so good you can't take care of the guests requests and that the egos of the ownership and/or any of the staff should never get in the way of the business.

In a broader sense of things I would have to say that people do need to be told "NO" more often on things. But not regarding things as simple as a special instruction in a dish they are ordering. But it does need to be for things like....."NO! You cannot over inflate the stock of your company and cause it to go bankrupt!! NO!!! You cannot have a $25,000,000.00 bonus to retain your services!!!! The company just went bankrupt!!!!!!! NO!!!!! You cannot work here any longer!!!!!!You just lost millions of people their retirement. NO!!!!!!! We can't not talk about this shtuff any longer.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

Well, since that was the more amusing part of my post I can see why you focused on it. I'm sure you saw that I said it was where I had worked, not where I work.
I should have been more clear that this took place about 20 years ago.
You'll note that the last paragraph mentions that I no longer respond in that fashion.
I'll do everything in my power to make a customer happy, to the chagrin of a few of my staff.
Occasionally though, some customers are determined to remain unhappy.
If that's the case and I've exhausted all avenues, I'll respond with a polite "I am so sorry to have lost you as a customer", and promptly walk away.
I've only had to do this twice in 25 years, and it is a last resort.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Quality answer, from what looks like a quality guy. nice to know you Jim...........Bill


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## xjmrufinix (Mar 16, 2009)

I work in a small kitchen so I deal with all the frustration behind the line as well as having responsibility for the bigger picture of the business and customer satisfaction; all of us have to be conscious of it there.

So while I totally understand being frustrated with special requests and demanding guests, I think it's dangerous to let that frustration shape policy except in cases where the request is simply impossible or particularly outrageous. Our previous Executive Chef was fired after repeatedly refusing to accommodate special requests. He let his frustration turn the customers into the enemy, which led to important banquets bombing, which led to losing that business....in the end he pretty much forced the owner to fire him, and this is a guy who gives everyone about 20 chances.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

I guess in a nutshell, the point I am trying to make is it's not a matter of not wanting to accommodate people, but at what point is my accommodating one customer inconveniencing another? That's where the problem comes in. Our kitchen is small and has limited equipment. Seating capacity is around 88 people and 225 covers is about all we can handle in one night. We have two cooks doing this, one on the broiler, one on the fryers. They trade off setting plates according to who has the most time to do it. The person on the broiler acts as expeditor. This is not the place that had all the problems. I worked both places at the same time and the one I'm at now used to feel like I was going on break when I went to work my shift compared to the other one. This place is more focused and the menu tailored to match our labor and equipment abilities. Most menu items have numerous preparation options. We will split prep methods 1/2 and 1/2, but I have had people try to order four scallops done four different ways, and that I won't do. If I did that, nothing would ever make it out of the kitchen and I would have a dining room full or irate people.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Greyeagle,

I hope you understand I wasn't addressing you specifically when I made my statements. It was more a blanket statement focusing on how I handled things. 

With that said, you are the only one that can draw that line. You know your guest base, the capabilities of the operation, your staff and ultimately yourself. 

You asked......

The only answer I can provide would be one I could give myself or my staff. You just don't let that happen. Or if it does because the request is that off the wall, the person(s) that is(are) asking the special request(s) need to be just as accommodating as you are. It's a give and take scenario. If you don't handle things yourself because of the needs of the business, you have to communicate this through your staff to the guest. This would probably be better handled by the Dining room Manager or owner if you are too busy but they (the guest that is) have to understand that this may take a little extra time and if they could please be patient you will be as accommodating as possible. It's better than an out-right refusal and both parties end up losing something.

It's never going to be a total win for all but it's a starting point. The next time they dine at the restaurant and you have the time to visit the table yourself, do just that. Talk to them. Make this guest a priority to know. Just not too much of a priority. If this is a specific guest that is consistently making this request, ask that the guest to "phone ahead". It does put the guest on the spot and may curtail the request but you are strengthening your relationship with the very people that you need to let the business survive. From the sound of things in talking with you, the restaurant and area is just small enough that you could greatly benefit from this. 

I'm sure we all know this but it's all about Guest focus and service. And meeting the guests needs is how we focus and serve the guest. I'm a fairly proud person and I certainly have my moments when it comes to ego. But the role we have taken, guest service, is a subservient role at best. It's anticipating the needs of the very people you need to survive and succeed. It is humbling and very frustrating but I also know it can be very rewarding. (Gawd I miss the rewards!) 

So, once again, it all boils down to the fact that only you know where to draw the line. Just understand that the position of that line is usually never the same and changes from moment to moment


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

No offense taken Old. We're all speaking in generalities here. How are you anyway? I do try to get out and talk to the people. I do that on Sat. nights. I go out on the floor, bartend if needed (mostly wash glasses) set plates on the line, pitch dishes in the dish pit. Try to stay out of the way. I have a blast. It's my favorite night of the week. Took awhile for the staff to understand that my giving them a hand here and there was not a silent criticism. They used to think if I helped them out for a few minutes that it meant I thought they weren't competent. Now they know I'm just greasing the wheels, that I'm not too good to do anything that needs to be done. But back to the subject. If I do go out of my way (Could you take the colossal shrimp out of their shells because I'm just too lazy; true story), yeah, if I have the time and it makes your whole night, fine. But don't come in here on a weekend night when it's crazy and expect us to do that because we won't. I make that very clear, and yes, I consider that a ridiculous request. If a person had a physical restriction that requires me to do this for them, that's different. I have elderly people that love crab legs and can't handle cracking them. Call ahead and tell me that, and I'll make arrangements, but don't just show up and tell me this in the heart of a rush. Like you said, it's give and take and I think we all need to work on getting customers to undersand that.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Come to think of it....... that was the toughest part of the job.

Hope you hadn't mentioned the fact that you were spending time "greasing the wheels" in a past email. I just plain missed that one and didn't realize you started spending time out in the dining room.:blush: I'd have to agree, it does make the job more enjoyable.

How am I doin'? Just trying to keep tying knots in the rope is about all I can do right now. Thanks for askin'.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Nah. Old, you didn't miss anything. The subject never came up. The previous G.M used to dictate what FOH did and had absolutely no experience in that area. I know enough to know that I don't know jack about running FOH. I used to wait tables, and I suck. Takes a certain person to do that, and I'm not it. Did it to get hours, but the bonus was it kept me in perspective about waitstaff point of view. They're caught in the middle between the customer and kitchen, generally taking s**t from both sides. It's easy to rip on waitstaff for forgetting to hang a ticket until you've done it yourself. You're a little more sympathetic when you've been in their shoes. I think all cooks should have to wait tables at least one night so they know what it feels like to have people staring at them because their food isn't coming out. They should all have to wash dishes too. You're a little more careful about burning pans when you're the one washing it. I still have a kitchen policy of you burnt it, you wash it. And I guess I'm getting senile because I'm the only one who ever burns pans!  If I'm behind the bar, I tell people I can make the drinks, but they won't let me play with the money (I won't get in someone else's till) and they think it's the funniest thing. If they get stuck with me waiting on them, I tell thim it's their bad luck and I hope they didn't buy a lottery ticket. Lets me get by with murder on the floor, but everybody has a good time.


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