# You guys have no idea...



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

...of the damage you've done to my sanity (that's also the name of my leather wallet, btw).
I used to be a normal guy with a sane, healthy habit for home cooking, preparing food to enjoy with my wife and friends, exploring different ethnic cuisines and recipes, cooking techniques and funny kitchen apparatus.
I even received an awesome Felix Solingen chef's for my birthday (a X50CrMrV15 german steel - btw, can you see the damage? I shouldn't know what that code mean...) and I was (and still am) very happy with it. This was a serious piece of equipment!

But then, one day, a realization suddenly took place: I was tired of working with dull knives. Really. No kiddin.
You know that feeling when everything inside you just smooths down calmly but firmly into place while the world around you becomes silent? Yeah, that one. "Determination" or "Resolution" someone might call it, although I now know it for being a close relative to "Mania" or "Creeping Insanity".

Anyway that's when I started to find a way to get my knives sharp and initially thought "Oh, not a big deal, I'll just buy one of those electric pull-through sharpeners and end-of-story". Ehehe... yeah. Bought one and after a bit of use in conjunction with a grooved steel (brrrrrr) my knives wouldn't be any sharper.
That's when I discovered waterstones on the forums and that made me also aware that there were japanese kitchen knives around and many considered them superior to anything else!
From then onwards it's just been a sheer drop toward insanity... knowing you guys on the forums, learning the types of steel, handle styles, blade styles, F&F (only knew M&Ms before...very smooth and polished!), etc...

So here I am, I've made the plunge and bought myself a Hattori HD 210 Gyuto from Koki (NZ here, and JCK's the only one that ships stuff around at decent rates), and also got myself a Tojiro stone 240/1000 and a SunTiger 1000/6000 (purely based on what's available here - and price) alongside with two guiderails, one Minosharp (set at an angle described as "between 10* and 15*") and another brand (can't really say the angle but definitely something close to 20*). Also got myself a DMT CS2 ceramic steel (again, no Idahone or MAC here in NZ).
Now, masking tape notwithstanding, my Hattori HD has the sanmai pattern completely scratched (







) but is quite sharp and the german Felix too! Finally!!Ahhhhh!!!

Just the beginning though. I can easily get that damned burr flippin on the 1000 but somehow I got the feeling I mess things up when I move to the 6000 (even with the guiderails on).
I can shave my arm and slice newspapers but can't effortlessly push-cut a cherry tomato.
I hate cherry tomatoes now.
I have nightmares with flawless cherry tomatoes bouncing around and laughing at me.
"The Silence of the Lambs" has been achieved, I can slice through lamb fine.Now the quest is to reach the "Silence of the Cherry Tomatoes".

Ah, and I really need a petty now... maybe carbonext or blazen just to try a different steel. 120? 150? Suggestions needed!!
Ah, need prob also a cutting board... wood or non-wood? (no sani-tuff in NZ)
Ah, and I might also need...

That's the end of the post guys. Too long? I won't apologize. You're the cause and you only deserve it!









---------------------------------

Rumenta


----------



## chefdave11 (Oct 27, 2011)

I prefer the simplicity of having a few knives to cover all the different tasks -

4 USD

Victorinox Serrated 4" Paring knife. Your cherry tomatoes will not infiltrate your dreams anymore.

While you're at it for 30 USD, get a Forschner 10.25" Bread knife. Just for kicks. See if it pushes you over the edge /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Thanks ChefDave, that is indeed good advice. I agree with you on the idea to have a few knives to do all the work, I intend to stay with my gyuto and just add a petty (prob 150mm) and a small parer (around 80mm).

That said I kinda like exploring a bit this new world and willing to throw a few bucks in order to do so. Hence my initial idea to try a petty with something a bit more exotic like powdered steel or the semi-carbon.

Whattheheck, I might even try a "normal" carbon alloy to see how it feels like.

Victorinox serrated. Ah, this makes me remember a few things when I grew up in Italy and all you'd find in the average kitchen was some sort of serrated Victorinox-like knives with plastic handles and branded "Kaimano". These were used for EVERYTHING. And when I say everything this means the whole lot from cutting watermelon slices in summer to boning meat and obviously they would also end up on the table as cutlery along with forks 

Bread knife. Good point, I found myself having a nondescript supermarket one. I must say it does its job decently but yeah, a Forschner seems a good idea. Not sure if they sell them here in NZ, it's ok with victorinox and wenger - I've seen those around and maybe are on the same line with the Forschner?

Forgot to mention I also have a boning knife, a gift from my wife back from a trip in Argentina.

Dunno what's made of but it seems something carbon as it's started to develop a patina in no time - the blade has engraved the name "El Chaja" and was made in Tandil. Pretty much an unknown brand for me but the thingy takes a great edge (and I'm a beginner at sharpening) and seems to hold it fine after dissecting a few t-bones for some "tagliata".

Anyone out there who knows argentinian steel and suggest what it could be made of?

cheers

Rumenta


----------



## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

For your shorter knives I can not highly recomend enough the Nogent Sabatiers from" the best things" as these knives have a large handle compared to current knife production which seems to dictate smaller handle and balance compared to user comfort. These are carbon knives but the upkeep is easy and they sharpen so very easy you will enjoy! Its also cool to use an old fashioned knife that the past greats used. Enjoy the addiction my friend,Doug.......


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Hey ChefBoy, thanks for your reply. Yeah, Sabatiers, I've read a lot of experienced people around here feel like you and are completely fond of them (either K or Thiers-Hissard).

I might be tempted to try out one but the only thing that somehow I don't instinctively like is that fingerguard they come with.

Now, if I were a rational person I should try first and judge afterwards, but if I were a rational person I wouldn't own a scratched 200$ Hattori HD I guess 

I'm really tempted by one of the following, as petty 150.

In the "tool steel" range:

Yoshikane "Dentogi" SKD (wa handle only here in NZ - never used one, no idea if I like it)
Ryusen Blazen SG
In the carbon (or "semi") range:

JCK CarboNext
Sabatier (with reserves about fingerguard)
I am a bit more informed about stainless steels japanese models on the market (research for my first gyuto) but I admittedly are less informed about japanese carbon options.

I know these two "roads" are completely different and prob not directly comparable (even from a price perspective) but, as I've mentioned, I'm a newbie and the only thing I'd like to do right now is experience different steels and get better at freehand sharpening.

Argh... so many questions hanging around in this few posts, sorry guys if it's a bit of an hodge-podge. Enthusiasm for a new hobby mixed with perplexity, I guess...

Cheers

Rumenta


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I love the Sabs and am very much annoyed by the finger-guards... I want to get someone to grind 'em out (or at least attenuate them seriously). 

I love your first post on this thread.  You're a damn writer.  And that's a similar journey to many of ours.  (It's actually the saner version -- at least you really *did* start with cooking and figure out you didn't like dull knives. As in, that's the right way.  And not particularly the way I went about it).  I don't know if I missed it -- do you use the "magic marker trick" when you sharpen? This could reveal the trouble with the 6000 grit stone.  Two things -- a steady angle and the correct angle.  It's easy to wobble too much, and it's easy to polish scratches away *just* behind the edge, or to round the edge a tad. 

I'm not altogether confident with my polishing stone, either.  I do ok, but have to go back and re-do more than I should. It just takes practice. And I don't mean to distract from your mulling over the petty choices... I just don't have input on that this morning.


----------



## wunderbier (Aug 3, 2011)

Wagstaff said:


> I love the Sabs and am very much annoyed by the finger-guards... I want to get someone to grind 'em out (or at least attenuate them seriously).


You and me both. Despite my best efforts to prevent it, mine (10" chef's) recently achieved a perfectly flat heel and predictably started producing accordion cuts on slightly concave boards. It otherwise felt kind of "off" during use. I asked BDL a long time ago if I could use a metal file to take the finger guard back some. He said "yes" _if and only if it was my knife._ Which it is, so I did.

I'm pretty happy with the results and it was surprisingly quick for not being a power tool. The blade only ever got warm once and never hot. I made it so that the finger guard stops short of the blade edge and from heel-to-tip it rounds into the edge. I also made it rise straight from the edge to the bolster, rather than jutting out the way it normally does; I'd say it's a 15 degree inclusive wedge, which keeps well out of the way of sharpening. The knife lost about 5-6 grams in the process. I haven't polished everything out yet and I may yet fiddle some more, but I can grab a picture if you want to see.


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I'd love to see, if you have a pic you can post.  I live in an apartment and have no real workbench or a vice.... presumably you used one, yes? i.e., didn't just file away a fingerguard holding the knife in one hand!??

I have a couple of possibilities for people who might do it for me.  I have to ask real nice.  And find a time to visit, if I get the first part right.

Back to Rumenta and the "which petty" question:  with the caveat that of those, I've only used the Sab, and I have a CarboNext gyuto (not petty), so I have an idea.

The Ryusen Blazen is a san-mai knife, if I'm not mistaken.  And I think the only one on your list.  Whether that matters to you or sways you one way or another I don't know.  BDL will tell you that to him, and to a sizeable minority of people at least, san-mai knives feel "dead" or "dampened" on the board.  And also in the cut.  On the board may not matter to you much in a petty, depending on how you use it.  In the cut might matter more.  Or you might not be in that sizeable minority that cares at all.  (I'm agnostic on the issue -- I've adopted the prejudice, but haven't bought sanmai knives to learn).

I like the CarboNext knives a lot.  My limited experience shows inconsistent fit and finish -- i.e., one of the two gyutos I've owned had a slight overgrind near the tip end, probably not enough to matter.  Not enough to matter for a long-ish while, maybe.  the other had no such problem.  The sharpening on the "Extra Sharp" version was worse than the blade that didn't have the extras.  Either way, the knife will get far sharper than it came out of the box, and is an easy knife to sharpen; even an easy knife to learn to sharpen on, I think.  Again, never used the petty, and don't know anything about the balance of one (if that matters).  If I needed another petty, I'd consider it though.

I have the 6" Sab Nogent slicer, and I have a 6" Togiharu stainless; I also have a 210mm Gesshin Ginga petty, which is slightly big (long blade) for most people's idea of a petty.  I like the narrow profile for slicing sweet potatoes and hard squash and the like -- a "laser" without the sticking on those sorts of things; I'm not the most accomplished cook at all, but this is a good knife for what I do really often.  Longer than what a lot of people want in petty.  I use the Sab most often for other small-knife tasks. But it does  have a fingerguard that is mildly annoying when it comes to sharpening.  (Not as annoying as the guard on the chef's knife, though!)

I like wa- handles.  Especially on bigger knives (they tend to be very light, comparatively).  But I've never even held a Yoshikane knife.  So of those you mentioned, this I have least to say about.

Anyway, this is not very helpful, perhaps -- I wouldn't have typed at all except that I think it's unlikely you'll find someone who is really familiar with all four of those you're looking at. I don't know if you had all these sorts of considerations in mind already.  So forgive the hypertypographia.


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Wagstaff said:


> I love the Sabs and am very much annoyed by the finger-guards... I want to get someone to grind 'em out (or at least attenuate them seriously).
> 
> I love your first post on this thread. You're a damn writer. And that's a similar journey to many of ours. (It's actually the saner version -- at least you really _did_ start with cooking and figure out you didn't like dull knives. As in, that's the right way. And not particularly the way I went about it). I don't know if I missed it -- do you use the "magic marker trick" when you sharpen? This could reveal the trouble with the 6000 grit stone. Two things -- a steady angle and the correct angle. It's easy to wobble too much, and it's easy to polish scratches away *just* behind the edge, or to round the edge a tad.
> 
> I'm not altogether confident with my polishing stone, either. I do ok, but have to go back and re-do more than I should. It just takes practice. And I don't mean to distract from your mulling over the petty choices... I just don't have input onto that this morning.


Wagstaff, your compliment is unexpected and very much treasured: I don't write often and don't consider myself particularly good at it but I guess in this case it's just my enthusiasm creeping out and doing the work. Kinda like those guys who, completely out of the blue, start talking in a weird language like ancient babylonian.

Wait...no, that's demonic possession.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif...

As for the "saner approach" you associate with me, well I won't answer that but only write down my wife's point of view around it.

She confided it to me one day I realized she was REALLY pissed off and couldn't understand why.

Basically she saw me, in order:

spend tremendous amount of time on knives websites and forums
start having a fixed stare (unto nothingness) during dinners babbling stuff as "zdp189sanmaivg10gyutocowryxdebaaogami"
spending 200 bucks on a #@^*! kitchen knife and having it even shipped from Japan
spending undetermined amount of money on strange colored stones and a white powdery stick
staring lovingly at the knife's blade while moving it under the light
dropping tomatoes on said knife, blade upwards and grinning when they were chopped by gravity
furiously rasping that knife on the stones while several colored flows of water dripped unto the floor
Swearin and howlin when the knife got scratches all over its fancy sides
Getting the knife back on the stones but this time giggling madly when it scratched some more
Not really my idea of "sane" ! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

(ah yes, she ended up sayin it wasn't really that bad and yes, she still loved me)

But back to the sharpening question: no I never used the magic marker trick - I had somehow expected the guiderails on the spine would do the job for me and compensate for my inexperience.

I'm obviously wrong.

I'll give it a go and see if I can get some useful info out of it.Thanks for the suggestion!

BTW, would you put a double bevel on a VG10 gyuto like mine, say at 12* and 20* (the angles from my two guiderails)? Or single is enough for the moment and that sort of steel should be able to keep it for a while?


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Well... saner approach in that you want to know for food prep. Not for the Grand Crazed Knify-ness Of It All. 

Of course you can take a sane approach to an insane place.  Welcome to the wild-eyed.

I've not used the blade guides, don't know much to say about them.  But I can almost promise the magic marker "trick" will be revealing as to what's going on with that polishing stone.  I'm not an very experienced sharpener, so I'm not claiming any expertise, here.  Fair warning.  I took a lesson from Jon (well worth it), but really don't have a large collection of knives, and in fact am either too careful or just flat out don't cook enough that I really need to (read: "get to") sharpen enough to consider myself very practiced.  So my blade faces get scratchy.  My tips look sloppy.  I sometimes dull the knife with the polishing stone, too, and have to go back to the medium stone and re-work the edge, then polish again.  All that.

Which might make me the perfect person to advise about beginners' mistakes, I don't know.  I can tell you if you drop the edge guides, you most likely will be tempted to push too hard against the knife.  (Not everybody does this, but I do... and from what I read on the forums, most beginners do), and you'll move faster than you should -- because after all, that's what you see in the videos -- and you won't check your work often enough.  And really it's the lattermost that I'm pushing awareness of.  The magic marker only  helps if you stop and look.  See how your angle is.

Now the nasty part is... if you really have a lot of wobble, you'll remove the magic marker without a constant angle.  That is... if you check too infrequently.  I can get behind the edge and not sharpen and remoe some of the marker; I can go too obtuse and round the edge and remove some of the magic marker.  You get the idea.  If you're all over the place, it'll be gone after a bunch of strokes.  So you have to check often. 

Pushing too hard with your finger against the stone, or moving too fast, or... being clumsy or having nerve damage might make you wobble, too.  I've got all these problems, myself.  Which means I spend a few minutes just doing more harm than good, then easing into correcting myself and fixing it.

On the double bevel -- presumably a "microbevel" at 20-degrees to help with edge retention -- nah, I wouldn't.  But I don't really have complaints about the edge retention.  I think learning to hold a consistent angle in as "plain" a way as possible when starting out makes more sense .  And the less edge retention you have, the more practice you have to get.  I'd worry about the microbevels later.  (Mind you, I also have an end-grain cutting board, am not often cooking for more than one, am probably not cooking as many meals as should for just one, even... my knives don't dull too quickly).

But if you notice your knife gets dull quickly, or if you just don't have the time to practice sharpening so want as much edge retention as possible, your priorities may be different.  So to come back to "how to think about it" (like me, because I'm told God thinks like me...):  The microbevel is a technique to improve edge retention.  Don't get ahead of yourself worrying about that -- wait until you're unhappy with your edge retention.  Then have at it.

(Interesting that you don't write much -- when Luis was first asking about Mac knives and stones, I loved the enthusiasm and vivid descriptions in his posts, too.  Another guy who doesn't consider  himself a writer, with English as a second language... You guys piss me off.  I have at various times had pretensions to being something of a writer. And you guys are better.  The happy ending to the description of the building tension within your wife is particularly well done.  And reference to demonic-induced ultraforeign language mastery.  That was good, too).


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Wow Wagstaff, that's heaps of info you put down and all very useful! I prob should have posted two separate threads, one for the petty and another for the sharpening (and I aint touched the cutting board topic yet...).

Anyway let me try and mark down a few things.

Re Sharpening:

I'll definitely have to try the magic marker trick - just don't remember how it's properly done. Will have to go back to Chad's tutorial on eGullet and any help on this forum.

You're absolutely right about checking the burr often: I find myself quite often exaggerating it just because the swarf accumulates on the edge and "masks" it until I clean the blade with running water.

I'll also have to figure out if it's better to remove the burr on the 1000 stone before moving to the 6000 or letting the 6000 remove it (or maybe avoid the 6000 altogether for now).

Yes, prob I should avoid the microbevel (no idea if mine can categorize as "micro" though) and see how I go with a single one. VG10 seems to manage a 12* fine after a couple weeks of use.

Re Petty:

Still puzzled here.

Now I definitely want to try a CarboNext blade. I remember BDL mentioning a basic Chef's paraphernalia should include a slicer, something that I don't have but never really felt a need for. Maybe that's the excuse to buy one?

Also intrigued by the powdered steels and, in that category, my limited knowledge is driving me towards either a Yoshikane or a Blazen.

My main doubts are:

If I'm already struggling sharpening a VG10 the way I'd like, would I be able to handle a harder alloy without huge frustration?

The Yoshikane really is borderline in terms of dollars and comes with a wa handle, something I never played with and not sure how practical it may be on a petty.

("Riddles in the dark", as Gandalf would put it, although the bastard had an elven-forged longsword, can't see why he would complain...it also glows when orcs are near: do you guys by any chance know any japanese blade that starts glowing when near a speed control camera?)


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Forgot to reply to your note circa san-mai knives that might feel "dull" to some and therefore influence a decision to purchase. I can smell some BDL there /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif...

Well, I can't honestly say because the Hattori HD is my first real Jap knife and don't have developed yet a proper "sensibility". It's SO different than my german chef's and I like both, for all their differences (or prob because of them). Not a decisive factor at this stage.


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

You smell BDL influence in what I said about sanmai? I specifically credited BDL with the thought! I hear you, though... I see some sanmai knives that look beautiful, and I see some that are pretty far out of my price range so they _must_ be good, right?

Magic marker trick consists of inking the edge. It's really very simple. I like that you want to look it up on Chad Ward's site -- that's some of the best guidance to sharpening I've seen, certainly in writing. I'm fairly sure there's a video on CKTG, too. Which might be reassuring to see -- though really you're just watching a dude ink the edge of a blade. Then you see where the ink scratches off when rub it against the stone. If you leave ink further on up the bevel than you meant to, you're at a higher angle, or rounding the edge. If leave ink on the edge itself but remove some behind it on the bevel, then you're thinning behind the edge maybe, but not sharpening the edge.

Look at Jon's sharpening videos on JapaneseKnifeImports too. Especially, I would recommend, the "Angles of Approach" video for starters. That gives a good little lesson on reducing wobble. Remember, like most everybody's sharpening videos: though he often goes slow on those videos _for him_, he's going fast for you (for now).

On your points of frustration: I don't know if a harder steel will cause more frustration in sharpening or not. Heat treatment has a lot to do with hardness, and indentation hardness (which is what they measure -- because it's easy) is not a direct indicator of abrasion hardness. Forgive me if my terminology is not metallurgically correct.

From what I understand, the particular problem with VG10 in most makers' hands is that it produces "tenacious burrs". Which means they're more difficult to chase and more difficult to remove. But then, you have Hattori HD knives, which have a rep for being problem-free in spite of the VG10. Heat treatment trumps.

Harder steels a la the powdered steels you're intrigued by perhaps have a rep for problems with chipping more than difficult-to-sharpen.

I'm in over my head, here -- I haven't bought a bunch of knives just to sharpen different steels. And when I first started obsessing about alloys, I got over it quick because that was difficult to balance with the variable heat treatments trumping whatever I thought of the particular alloy.

(This is not to say I don't pay attention at all, just to say the obsession is something attenuated. Because I can't afford to try all the alloys that seem interesting and then I couldn't stand the idea that even that was not going to give a good idea of the various implementations of those alloys. So .... it comes into play more when I pick a particular knife, and then compare whether I want this-carbon or that-stainless or what version).


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

Wagstaff said:


> You smell BDL influence in what I said about sanmai? I specifically credited BDL with the thought! I hear you, though... I see some sanmai knives that look beautiful, and I see some that are pretty far out of my price range so they _must_ be good, right?
> 
> Magic marker trick consists of inking the edge. It's really very simple. I like that you want to look it up on Chad Ward's site -- that's some of the best guidance to sharpening I've seen, certainly in writing. I'm fairly sure there's a video on CKTG, too. Which might be reassuring to see -- though really you're just watching a dude ink the edge of a blade. Then you see where the ink scratches off when rub it against the stone. If you leave ink further on up the bevel than you meant to, you're at a higher angle, or rounding the edge. If leave ink on the edge itself but remove some behind it on the bevel, then you're thinning behind the edge maybe, but not sharpening the edge.
> 
> ...


for what its worth, i'm also here to answer any questions about anything in my videos if you have them (assuming you decide they are the right videos for you).

-Jon


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Jon's videos are fhe best on the web IMO. But ithere's not a "how to do the magic marker trick" video. Or a "How to flatten a stone" video, I don't think. So some extreme basics are in other videos, or better in Chad Ward's egullet chapter.


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

Wagstaff said:


> Jon's videos are fhe best on the web IMO. But ithere's not a "how to do the magic marker trick" video. Or a "How to flatten a stone" video, I don't think. So some extreme basics are in other videos, or better in Chad Ward's egullet chapter.












and if you watch the beginning of this one i talk about magic marker (i know i need to do a video on this alone though)


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Me = Corrected! Still, best sharpening instruction videos on the web.


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

hey, if you happen to think of anything else i'm missing or if you want to see something re-done in a better way, let me know.  i just got some cool new lighting, a new mic, new tripod, and some other stuff.  Its a scary thing when knives and stones are the less expensive of my 2 hobbies


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

But have you had sashimi in k-town?

BDL


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

boar_d_laze said:


> But have you had sashimi in k-town?
> 
> BDL


sadly not yet... stoked for night+markeyt tonight though


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Jon, thank you very much for your videos and comments, I'll have a good go at them when I'm back home (at work right now).
About the magic marker trick, I kinda have a silly question on the back of my mind but I'm, well, a bit ashamed to ask...oh bugger...here it is: do you use a specific type of magic marker??
I sort of have the vague notion that some inks are more permanent than others on metal... although, to think of it, a black-handled Hattori HD with deep scratches on the sides and a black line along the edge would look quite badass... kind of a fallen queen turned rogue, sort'o thing...

Wagstaff: that's extremely interesting about hardness mainly referring to indentation resistance. It completely eluded me.
I thought it was similarly proportional to intensity of work on the stones, as in "given the same waterstone and angle, higher HRC equals more hard work to remove blade material".
I don't really want to try different alloys to see how they sharpen but rather how they make a knife "behave" differently, how it vibrates when it hits the board, how light it is, how it responds to lateral pressure, how it responds to different chopping/cutting techniques, how it interacts with foods with different textures, etc...

I absolutely think that, in the end, it's the overall "holistic" look and feel of a knife that I'd like to experience but, like you, I don't have indefinite amounts of money to throw at this hobby and I don't like unused stuff hanging around collecting dust. So I want to achieve as wider an experience as I reasonably can within a three/four knives limit - I don't plan to buy more (is that laughing I'm hearing?? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif).
That's why, when I had to make initial decisions, I tried to figure out what single characteristic could be so important as to make the most significant difference between several knives of the same "type" or "function" (gyuto, deba, petty, santoku, honyaki, etc.).
I came up with alloy.

If you feel so inclined, I would be sincerely interested in hearing from you guys if you feel there even IS such a thing as a "primary characteristic" that is able _per se_ to differentiate knives of same function group.


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

i use sharpie... the magnum ones make my life easier...1 swipe and i'm done


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Magnum Sharpie, me too. 

The Magic Marker trick is one of the most powerful learning tools.  Wish someone had taught me when I was learning.

BDL


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Rumenta said:


> Jon, thank you very much for your videos and comments, I'll have a good go at them when I'm back home (at work right now).
> About the magic marker trick, I kinda have a silly question on the back of my mind but I'm, well, a bit ashamed to ask...oh bugger...here it is: do you use a specific type of magic marker??
> I sort of have the vague notion that some inks are more permanent than others on metal... although, to think of it, a black-handled Hattori HD with deep scratches on the sides and a black line along the edge would look quite badass... kind of a fallen queen turned rogue, sort'o thing...
> 
> ...


Steel alloy is definitely a big issue. It just has confounding variables (heat treatement, geometry). And the hardness ratings are not irrelevant, they're just a proxy. That is, we wish we had a different kind of hardness rated. So you get a general idea, but then ask around about the particular knife or knifemaker (sic).

I hope someone else who knows interrupts to tell us about carbide sizes and "fine grainedness" and such.

*Primary characterstic* -- No.

OR: I started with some vague idea of profile as a "primary characteristic" by the way. Even though there's more to that I first thought. I started thinking about how much belly, how high or low the tip, and how tall the knife is. And with all the talk of "lasers", how thin the knife is. Which is fine as far as it goes. But there's plenty more to the grind (distal taper, degree of convexity...)

This is not altogether unrelated to the alloy, as in some steels will take some geometries... but clearly they're not the same thing.

Maybe those things together are a "primary characteristic" for you.

Someone else will just want to talk handles. Or weight, or just wants to know where the balance point is. (That's kinda dumb, but... I know many people who rate guitar players according to how fast they can run chromatic scales. Some thingz iz important to one and not another, ja'know?)

"Honyaki" by the way is the item that didn't belong on that list of knife functions. (I don't know if you were testing!)


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Marker Inks?

They all clean off metal very easily as long as you don't let them sit too long.  Probably even then.

Defining characteristic? 

Figure out what type of knife you want, how much you're willing to spend, and take it from there.  There are so many characteristics, combinations of characteristics and contingencies it's impossible to give a universal formula.  Start by giving lots of information and lots of questions to people you like and trust.

Alloy? 

Pretty far down the list.  There are important differences between  very cheap, low-middle, high-middle, and high-end and/or exotic; but that's a function of budget as much as anything else.  $250 gyuto alloys are almost all very good to excellent, and are almost all appropriately hardened.  $35 gyuto alloys, not so much.  What you're really looking at are characteristics like edge taking, edge holding, corrosion resistance and so on.  Sometimes it's a matter of horses for courses.

Rockwell Hardness? 

There are three major types of material hardness:  Indentation; Scratch; and Impact.  Rockwell hardness is ONLY indentation hardness, and it's got the least direct connection with knife performance of the three.  Rockwell hardness is a very difficult test to perform under the best of circumstances; you need a LOT of tests to get statistically significant results; hardness varies from batch to batch; the numbers manufacturers report are notoriously optimistic; etc.  That doesn't mean that Rockwell numbers aren't useful, it's just context.  The real context with knives is a materials quality called "strength."  You want a knife with an appropriate balance of strength and toughness.

Rockwell Hardness and Sharpening?

Harder knives are not necessarily more difficult to sharpen than softer.  Knives which are very tough and not very strong are often very difficult.  But there are so many contingencies I can't think of any hard and fast rules other than giving some suggesting oil stones for a few types of knife alloys, and water stones for most.

How to choose?

Don't try to figure all this out on your own.  It's hard to figure out what is and what is not important because there's so much noise from manufacturers and from well meaning people who want to give advice as well.  Find a few people who make sense to you.  Offer lots of information and ask lots of questions.

BDL


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Mmm... right, a few things start falling into place but I must admit my concept of Rockwell hardness and how it differentiates steels was completely wrong - way too simplistic I guess.

But that's ok, thanks for your help gents, that is much appreciated!

Wagstaff, about the "honyaki": no testing at all, just plain wrong - I meant honesuki but I've got about 268 new, strange japanese words all having "ono", "oto", "ishi" swirling in my head and mixing together.

BDL, I intend to follow your advice in buying what I like and can afford - way to go. But...but...still I'd like to try something different than sanmai VG10. Mind you, I love my knife, it's the best tool with an edge that I ever possessed I'm by no means tired of it. Just need to try out something else.

There are many people that I've come to trust in these forums for the quality of their suggestions, either technical or more "philosophical" - it all makes for a great read and pleasant time, and you learn stuff at the same time.

It's a bit hard for me to define exactly what I want - the panorama of choices out there is quite vast and, as you all have pointed out, there's no "primary characteristic" to use as guidance.

So, what kind of petty will I buy? Basically one that feels and behaves differently from VG10, with a different alloy. That much I'm sure about.

From a purely aesthetic standpoint I really like sleek, stiletto-esque shapes, such as a "vendetta" and I must admit that my eyes are constantly drawn to the Hattori Forum and Kanetsugu Pro-M.

Although I hate stuff that don't get used, I guess I'll buy the Pro-M 150 petty anyway just for the sheer beauty of the thing. It's downright sexy.
 

The Carbonext and Blazen I mentioned simply because they seemed to me to be affordable examples of steels belonging to very different categories, i.e. ultra-hard powdered and (sort of)carbon and therefore might bring a different experience. That's basically the reason, otherwise, for aesthetics and such, they're a big "meh"...

Quite intrigued by carbons as well, the only one I've got (the argentinian boning knife) is getting a patina that I find beautiful. the edge retention also positively surprises me. But I'm not sure I have the discipline to keep one from rusting or deteriorating. Yeah I tend to clean and dry 'em after use but friendly company at my dinner table and a good bottle of wine or two (or three) still have the precedence in my agenda, so it happens the knife sits on the chopping board in a primordial pudding of water and acids til it's time to clean up, and depending on the wine that sometimes is the morning after...


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

On another note - I'll try and find a Sharpie but not sure they sell them here in NZ. I might just steal a whiteboard marker from work!

Jokes apart, would that work by any chance?? (a whiteboard marker, I mean)


----------



## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

no... they are not the same kind of ink

http://www.sharpie.com/enNZ/Pages/HomePage.aspx


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Since you are new here your post is being held for moderation

what??????


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

JBroida said:


> no... they are not the same kind of ink
> 
> http://www.sharpie.com/enNZ/Pages/HomePage.aspx


Oh , THAT is a Sharpie?! Now that you've showed the logo to me I think I've seen them even in supermarkets!

I guess because of the brand name I thought they were some sort of very specialized markers made for blade sharpening process...


----------



## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

any sort of permanent marker should work though.

i've only recently discovered that sharpies are also sold here in my country. i've always bought them when i run out. lol.


----------



## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

"Sharpie" is a brand name.  Permanent marker. Or sometimes they're called "laundry markers".  Or they were when I was a kid.  Back when computers were run on vacuum tubes.


----------



## rumenta (Jul 18, 2012)

Right.

Wag, BDL and Jon thanks heaps for your time and input.

Bugger, I had really hoped that guiderails on the back of the knife would have solved pretty much any angle problem by removing normal wrist wobbling. After all, you just would have to keep a decent downward pressure to make sure the blade is always in contact with the stone and the guiderail would do the rest, wouldn't you think? Evidently not - and if I understand your hints, this might be due to improper burr removal or, simply, the guiderail's help is not sufficient when going on the 6000 grit stone, where probably a minimum movement is sufficient to round up the edge or something.

Sharpie will be my new friend. I'm going to use it and see what it reveals... thanks for the lead.

Now, after a bit of thinking I've pretty much decided on the petty. And the decision is absolutely irrational: I'll be going for a Kanetsugu Pro-M 150. Rationale? I like the shape. And it's a different metal than VG-10 so I guess it broadens my horizons a bit although it doesn't sound as being one of the most celebrated alloys. Bah.

As a consequence of the petty's choice, I still wouldn't have experienced pure "Japanese-ness" in a knife and have just a hole in my knife block for a slicer... that needs fixing. (But that's something for another thread, 's my guess)


----------



## chefdave11 (Oct 27, 2011)

off the primary topic, but since Sharpie's are being discussed....

I live for my Super Sharpies.  Harder to find, but instead of a fine tip or a chisel tip, it's just a thicker straight tip and writes great on plastic wrap, aluminum lids, and anything in general.

To erase sharpies, use a dry-erase/whiteboard marker.  Wild trick I discovered by accident years ago when somebody wrote on the dry-erase board with a sharpie instead of the expo (dry-erase) marker.


----------

