# How do you "hold" sauces?



## gobblygook

My concept restaurant will have a lot of pastas.  I'm trying to determine the best method for holding my sauces.

For tomato based sauces, I could hold them warm in a steam table, cold in a pizza/sandwich table, or (in theory) room temperature.  I had it all planned out in my head until I saw how a local Italian restaurant does it.  They use a steam table and just put the heated sauce over the pasta.  I had been planning to hold the sauce refrigerated, toss in some cooked pasta and the sauce into a saute pan and give it a minute or so on heat.  Please share your thoughts on red sauces.

Now comes the dreaded "how to hold alfredo" question.  Do I hold it cold and then heat with the pasta as I had planned to do with the red sauce or is there another method?


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## butt3r_chick3n

My current work holds its sauces in a bain marie for during dinner service. Rest of the day it's kept in the fridge to be heated to order. Alfredo is also kept in the bain marie and usually keeps well, just make sure to keep it covered and stir occasionally.


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## boar_d_laze

If your "Alfredo" is really a _Mornay_ by another name, you can hold it in a bain marie set in a steam table. If it's "real" _Alfredo_, which is to say a highly emulsified version of _al burro_, you can hold it in the fridge but you'll want to beat it soft again before using so it holds the emulsion when it melts.

Personally, I think your original idea was far better than what the "local Italian restaurant" is getting up to. You're definitely better holding most of your other sauces cold; heating them _a minute_ in a skillet, then tossing the cooked, _al dente_ pasta in the sauce until all is as it should be.

Ladling red sauce on naked pasta is prevalent here in the US of A, but it's kind of barbaric when you think about it. In any case, it's not the best way to serve pasta.

BDL


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## foodpump

Amen to BDL's post.....

If you're paying upwards of $10.00 for a plate of pasta, it should be be heated a'la minute and tossed with a _decent, al dente cooked pasta._ No "funny business" with putting oil in the cooking water, just 10 parts of rolling boiling salted water to 1 part pasta. Portion the cooked pasta out in take-away soup containers, and heat up in water a'la minute and toss with the sauce. Many places saute off a garnish in the pan first (onions, chorizo, pancetta, chicken, garlic, etc) then add in the cold sauce, bring to a boil, then add in the drained hot pasta and toss.

High volume places will keep their sauces in a steam table. However anything kept in a steam table will eventually suffer steam table damage,

Dececco and Barilla rank as pretty good pastas, with Barilla ranking as #1 in Italy due to "bragging rights" about using solid 24 ct gold extruding dies in the factory.* Good pastas will use a bronze die in the extruding machine which gives the pasta a slightly rougher texture and helps the sauce cling on to it better, as well as some kind of "grandmother's secret process" of drying the pasta prior to packaging. Cheap pastas use cheap softer wheat, nylon dies, and high volume fans--nursing home pasta....

Believe it or not most of Italy's best pasta comes from Canadian wheat, and most of France's best mustard--comes from Canadian mustard seeds.....

*Never been to the factory, and won't believe it untill I see it.......


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## petemccracken

OK, how long does it really take to heat a pasta sauce, or for that matter, make it from scratch?

6-7 minutes?

How long does it take to cook the pasta al dente? 3-11 minutes, depending on the pasta.

So, what's the question?

Why bother holding "hot sauces" when all they do is degrade and à la minute matches the pasta cooking time?

And I do NOT substitute a "mornay sauce" for Alfredo, thank you very much!


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## durangojo

okay, pete and bdl, pleae don't get your knickers in a twist about the dif between alfredo and mornay..you are both kinda right...pete, i think that eveyone thinks of alfredo with fettuccine, as in 'fettuccine alfredo'...lots of cream, parm, stock, more cream,and a boat load of garlic...mornay, is also a basic bechamel sauce with the addition of a cheese..usually swiss,not parm, which to me is the queintestiental difference alfredo and mornay...a good parm adds the perfect blend of saltiness to  alfredo... for  mornay, cheese may be swiss or gruyere......i think the  big difference is that the french don't pair their alfredo/mornay with a pasta, like the italians do, but more commonly with fish.... personal note, i love love love alfredo sauce...i could just eat it as a soup sometimes, with a reall good epi loaf...big question in my head, i ALWAYS.ALWAYS, ALWAYS add nutmeg to my alfredo sauce......what is the spice added to mornay that would put it apart from the basic bechamel...thyme?...ah the french! do you think they stole the credit for alfredo...no, not the french,, they simply rename it for their own..mornay

as for the sauces added to the dishes, when i have an order for pasta, i heat up a saute pan with water, add the noodle of choice , than add the sauce, meatballs or sausage of choice with fresh basil, garlic, splash  of red wine or wine or marsala to finish the dish..kinda turn into a saute of sorts...not just heating up noodles  in a pasta warmer and just plopping on the sauces...depends on how big your op is, but you gotta trust me on this...its the little extra special touches that make the difference...shaved parm over shredded or grated is HUGE...all over the rim of the plate...people feel special, as they should be...okay,well just my little voice


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## chefross

Ah Alfredo....there are more ideas of how it should be made then Dones has pills.

There is no garlic in Alfredo sauce no matter how much Americans want it in there.

It is simply a reduction of cream, butter, and Parmesan cheese.

Very simple, easily prepared, no holding necessary. Made a la minute. Period.


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## skatz85

i work in an italian restuarant some of the sauces we hold is our tomato(go through alot of it), bechemel for crepes, stocks (fish and veal)and pepercorn in a steam table. alfredo is not really hard to amke some butter and cream and reduce, that can be made ala minute in my opinion and we make it to order. parm is a must and maybe some pecorino. make it simple and delicious, that is key to italian food. pasta is the main event and other things are just condiments. oh dont forget some good pesto i know its not a sauce but when added to a tomato, velute and even alfredo it just takes it to another level


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## gobblygook

Thanks for the advice guys.  One of the important aspects of running a restaurant is to understand your clientele.  In my case, "Olive Garden" equals "good Italian food".  Don't even start screaming at me -- I understand completely.  However, I'm in a rural, mostly blue-collar community.  Using half and half to extend the alfredo sauce is an unfortunate requirement; at least I'm not using milk and corn starch.  Cost IS a deciding factor unfortunately. 

I would love nothing more than to serve fresh pasta cooked to order, but a $2k pasta machine is only going to give me sheeted pastas, not pretty tubes and spirals. 

Also, please explain about not using oil in the pasta water.  I use enough to create some surface tension to avoid the boiling over that often happens with pasta.  The oil helps avoid the "foaming" and thus the boil over, but doesn't really "lube" the pasta.  The sauce still sticks to the pasta nicely.  Is there something else I need to be aware of?

Also, I absolutely hate "al dente".  There's no good definition of it that I've found.  Every time I hear it described, it's cooked long enough that it's soft, but still has "mouth feel".  Well, wait just a second... do you mean a slight crunch in the center, a slight hardness in the center, or just not cooked until absolute mush?  It's one of those things I'm afraid I'll have to "taste" when cooked by someone who I trust to actually know what the phrase means vs being stuck like me in making WAGs.


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## chefedb

The schools of the oil and salt factor.  The only thing the oil does when cooking pasta is to act as an anti foaming agent, it does not lubricate or stop from sticking . Since oil floats on water how could it. Putting cooled down pasta in oil is another thing that there are 2 thoughts. 1. is that coating the pasta later retards the adhesion of the sauce to it. Other says it stops it from sticking together. I cook mine , chill it down weigh it off into portions and plastic bag it. This way everyone gives the same size portion and it is always considered wrapped for health dept. I do not oil it as I have found that when I drop it back into boiling water it comes apart anyway. I salt my water for a bit of flavor, not to make the water hotter because it really doesn't. The above is the way I do it others have other ways, but for me this works. Most of my pasta dishes are a la minute. Only sauce I have in S T is meat sauce and marinara, I use heavy cream for many.


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## boar_d_laze

We're talking three different kinds of _Alfredo_. The one invented by Alfredo and served by him at _Alfredo's_, his restaurant in Rome, made famous by Mary Pickford and Doug Fairbanks after they ate their frequently on their on their (extremely well-documented) honeymoon, and which started the whole _Alfredo_ sauce thing in the US doesn't have cream nor is it thickened in any way. Take a look.

It's not necessarily better than the way you make yours, it is what it is. Just sayin', so my comments about holding cold and beating soft before service make sense.

IMO you could make a mint selling the real deal. It's all the good and none of the gooey.

BDL


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## gobblygook

I took a look. I made it, I loved it. Okay, I made it and screwed it up a little. I heated the mixture with the pasta, which isn't what you said to do. It separated on me when it cooled down on the plate. I beat it senseless too. Although 8 ounces of butter and 8 ounces of parm/romano in a big kitchenaid mixer meant a lot of scraping down, so perhaps I still didn't beat it enough. My food cost is nuts though. Of course, I'm using grocery store pricing for ingredients at this point. I'm even getting the sheeps milk cheese imported from Italy (supposed to be aged longer with a lower salinity). I'll have to look at the label. It's the "real" stuff, parm reggiano (I think), though not a primo brand or anything. 


boar_d_laze said:


> We're talking three different kinds of _Alfredo_. The one invented by Alfredo and served by him at _Alfredo's_, his restaurant in Rome, made famous by Mary Pickford and Doug Fairbanks after they ate their frequently on their on their (extremely well-documented) honeymoon, and which started the whole _Alfredo_ sauce thing in the US doesn't have cream nor is it thickened in any way. Take a look.
> 
> It's not necessarily better than the way you make yours, it is what it is. Just sayin', so my comments about holding cold and beating soft before service make sense.
> 
> IMO you could make a mint selling the real deal. It's all the good and none of the gooey.
> 
> BDL


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## durangojo

Chefross said:


> Ah Alfredo....there are more ideas of how it should be made then Dones has pills.
> 
> There is no garlic in Alfredo sauce no matter how much Americans want it in there.
> 
> It is simply a reduction of cream, butter, and Parmesan cheese.
> 
> Very simple, easily prepared, no holding necessary. Made a la minute. Period
> 
> yeah, i know 'besciamellia', traditionally has no garlic, but i really just can't help myself!!!!...also, GG, how i would describe al dente pasta is tender, but firm...there almost is no greater sin in italian cooking than overcooking pasta! and so very easy to avoid..there is an italian saying, 'that pasta does not wait for anyone!!!'.......as comparision, have you ever had overcooked rice?.....mushy, tasteless....whereas in perfectly cooked rice, you can taste each separate grain.....also, if you are making pasta ahead to reheat to order, i would definately undercook the pasta to begin with as you will be further cooking it on the reheat....
> 
> bdl.. thanks for the alfredo story on cookfoodgood......lovely story...didn't see the posts on this thread however before i answered there....


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## durangojo

p.s.

 yeah, i agree with you bdl on the sacrilege of just ladling sauce on pasta.....ideally, the fresh cooked, unrinsed pasta should be 'tossed' with your sauce of choice..and additional sauce served alongside...always with fresh parm...

joey


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## gobblygook

Okay, I'm back for more...

I made another batch of alfredo (I'm using Pecorino Romano for the cheese).  Someday, I'll look up the big differences, but if I'm making a huge mistake, please let me know.

I used the food processor this time, using the chopping blade.  I didn't quite make it to powdered cheese, but fairly close.  I beat the butter into submission, and the taste was great.  I took off a few tablespoons of the sauce and tossed in a ziplock bag in the fridge (to simulate "holding" refrigerated).  I know this is going to be a "duh" moment, but it solidified (I was hoping that the whipping would make it a softer texture, like "whipped margarine", which didn't happen).  Now I'm back to how to portion and serve.  It almost seems like creating a large batch and using a scoop/baller would be the best method and then toss in a saute' pan to melt, add the pasta, and mix to serve.  Am I missing something?


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## chefedb

Most quality upscale places make Alfredo to order, so there is no need to hold. I have even done it to order for large banquets, I used a large pro. wok. Many places simply make a Bechamel and add cheese, we don't.


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## boar_d_laze

Gobbly,

You can portion with a scoop and hold cold, but you'll have to cream it again before using.  It's got to be very smooth and temped before going on the pasta.  You can re-cream smaller portions easily with an electric hand mixer, and that will temp it as well.

BDL


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## a_mak

Maybe if you're doing a high volume of pastas it might make sense to keep hot sauces in a steam table.  But where I work we only have 3 pastas on our menu, a spicy marinara, an alfredo, and a creamy pesto.  So for us it makes more sense to keep the sauces cold & then heat them up per order.  We also cook the pasta seperately in hot water & then toss it in the cooked sauce.  To me it doesn't make sense to cook the pasta in the sauce.  Even though they take roughly the same time, sometimes the timing isn't perfect and you could end up with either the sauce or pasta overcooked or undercooked.  The only thing about keeping the sauces hot in a well is you have to make sure the thickness & seasoning of the sauce is correct for each order.


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## durangojo

A_mak said:


> Maybe if you're doing a high volume of pastas it might make sense to keep hot sauces in a steam table. But where I work we only have 3 pastas on our menu, a spicy marinara, an alfredo, and a creamy pesto. So for us it makes more sense to keep the sauces cold & then heat them up per order. We also cook the pasta seperately in hot water & then toss it in the cooked sauce. To me it doesn't make sense to cook the pasta in the sauce. Even though they take roughly the same time, sometimes the timing isn't perfect and you could end up with either the sauce or pasta overcooked or undercooked. The only thing about keeping the sauces hot in a well is you have to make sure the thickness & seasoning of the sauce is correct for each order.


but that's why we get paid the big bucks.....to make sure we DON'T overcook the pasta, the sauce, or anything else for that matter...besides timing, its about patience...holding cream sauces will not only break them down, but change the color i.e. creamy basil pesto, texture (anything with cheese), and ultimately the taste, which is why everyone is there in the first place!

joey


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## boar_d_laze

A_Mak,

Besides agreeing with Durangojo, I wonder if there isn't a basic misunderstanding going on here. You wrote,


> _To me it doesn't make sense to cook the pasta in the sauce. _


We may be on wildly different pages. You seem to be thinking we actually cook the pasta entirely in the sauce. No, no. We're not quite that pazzo.

We're talking about a technique in which the pasta is cooked in water, removed and drained when it's barely al dente, added to a skillet on the flame with some sauce in it, where both are tossed together. The sauced pasta is then turned out, plated and served. That's the generic, Italian way to handle most pasta and sauce combinations.

Some are are so delicate to require special handling. For a few things you want to stay entirely off the flame and rely on the residual heat from the pasta, plus a little pasta water. They're areall the heat necessary to cook an egg sauce like a traditional _Carbonera_ or melt an _al burro_ like "real" _Alfredo*_ to velvet. Anymore would curdle one and break the other.

But, by and large, Plan A is a brief heat on the flame, tossing the pasta and sauce. For a home cook, it can be difficult to explain to one's spouse why you need to get another pan dirty if you're only going to use it for 30 seconds, her (or his) mom doesn't do it, if you like Mario Batali so much why don't you marry him, etc., etc. However in a restaurant environment it should be SOP and a non-issue.

BDL

* We probably mean different things by_ Alfredo_. The version I'm talking about is butter and cheese only -- creamed to emulsification. It doesn't call for additional cream and doesn't get any thickening whether from egg, flour or reduction.


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## gobblygook

Even for the home cook, I'm not seeing how an extra pan is required. Even if you're using sauce from a can/jar, you still have to heat it somehow. Cook the pasta, drain, put the saucepan back on the stove, dump in your sauce in, heat, when nice and hot, toss in the pasta and finish cooking. If you're cooking for more than one person, you're probably using a wide-based saucepot anyway (to have lots of hot water to cook a reasonably small pasta order in). You still get most of the surface area of a saute' pan. I'm just having an issue grasping how an extra pan is required in a home kitchen. 


boar_d_laze said:


> But, by and large, Plan A is a brief heat on the flame, tossing the pasta and sauce. For a home cook, it can be difficult to explain to one's spouse why you need to get another pan dirty if you're only going to use it for 30 seconds, her (or his) mom doesn't do it, if you like Mario Batali so much why don't you marry him, etc., etc. However in a restaurant environment it should be SOP and a non-issue.


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## boar_d_laze

Sadly, Gobbly, not everyone is you.

Some people just pour the sauce on the pasta straight from the jar or heat it in the microwave.  Just like some restaurants hold sauces in a bain marie and ladle it over the pasta in a bowl and mix it off the heat, or just ladle it over the top of already plated pasta.

BDL


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## gobblygook

I guess where my disconnect is, is with taking COLD butter and creaming it. Perhaps my logic is flawed since I've never worked on a "cook to order" line that involved multiple dishes (my background is fast food and pizza joints). I would expect that an order comes in, I drop the pasta to finish it (par cooked if dry, from "raw" if fresh) for a minute or two. During that time, I need to get my sauce ready. Creaming to order, using BDL's prep method from "raw" would require 6-10 minutes in a mixer. I've just doubled or tripled my "time to window" for that dish. Even if I can find a nice small food processor to be able to deal with a single serving of sauce, from chilled pre-made state, that's still a couple of minutes in the food processor -- not impossible, but a little more "manual" of a process to load, whip, unload, put back together, etc for working on a line. I'm also concerned about having such a piece of equipment on a hot serving line. I can't think of a good location for such a device that would be out of the way, but not out of reach. A hand mixer just simply requires constant attention (whereas a stand mixer wouldn't).

What bothers me the most, is that for standard service, rush should be 5:30-8:00pm in most cases. 2.5 hours is WELL within the "4 hour window", but if the health dept caught me "holding" alfredo at room temp, I'm figuring they'd have a fit. Sometimes, 40 is too cold and 140 is too hot. That brings me to a pet peeve. Why is it that a cook is scared to hold tomato sauce at room temp (health dept), yet the bottles of ketchup can sit on the table all day? Both are safe, due to the acid content, but how do you explain that to the guy with the scorecard?



boar_d_laze said:


> You can portion with a scoop and hold cold, but you'll have to cream it again before using. It's got to be very smooth and temped before going on the pasta. You can re-cream smaller portions easily with an electric hand mixer, and that will temp it as well.


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## boar_d_laze

Gobbly,

Check your PM box. 

BDL


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## durangojo

boar_d_laze said:


> Gobbly,
> 
> You can portion with a scoop and hold cold, but you'll have to cream it again before using. It's got to be very smooth and temped before going on the pasta. You can re-cream smaller portions easily with an electric hand mixer, and that will temp it as well.
> 
> BDL


can you sub an immersion blender for the hand mixer? just seems easier to handle/manage......a whisk would be the handiest for me

joey


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## boar_d_laze

I think the orginal Alfredo used a wooden spoon.

Whisk -- especially a "French whisk" (i.e., real thick wires) -- is best, all the way through; but doesn't work great with cold butter.

Stand mixer with the wire whip (not the beater blade), or hand mixer with the whire whips -- fine.

Don't know about an immersion blender, wouldn't think so.

Going on order, start to finish, by hand is best. But gobbly doesn't have the manpower, so we're trying to work out a comprompise solution that doesn't give up too many of the qualities Alfredo's _Alfredo_ has -- so much smoother, richer, better mouthfeel, and yes creameir than the cooked-cream versions.

Perhaps the best way to deal with a hold-cold situation is to make your own very soft, very whipped not-quite-butter, combining the cheese in the process. That way, the _al burro_ never gets hard enough to be a problem. If you get it just right, it will hold the emulsion -- maybe better, in fact. I've done it that way for catering. It might be revealing too much, but it's also an arrow in the quiver of my cooking for seduction schtick -- and has been since my twenties. Both of those are tough scrutinty.

By the way, the DIY whipped cream to proto-butter version also works well for tableside presentation. Any good _Alfredo_ loves tableside and vice versa.

BDL


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## a_mak

boar_d_laze said:


> A_Mak,
> 
> Besides agreeing with Durangojo, I wonder if there isn't a basic misunderstanding going on here. You wrote,
> 
> We may be on wildly different pages. You seem to be thinking we actually cook the pasta entirely in the sauce. No, no. We're not quite that pazzo.
> 
> We're talking about a technique in which the pasta is cooked in water, removed and drained when it's barely al dente, added to a skillet on the flame with some sauce in it, where both are tossed together. The sauced pasta is then turned out, plated and served. That's the generic, Italian way to handle most pasta and sauce combinations.
> 
> I guess I did misunderstand because this is what I was talking about.
> 
> * We probably mean different things by_ Alfredo_. The version I'm talking about is butter and cheese only -- creamed to emulsification. It doesn't call for additional cream and doesn't get any thickening whether from egg, flour or reduction.
> 
> If that's the case then we do false Alfredo. Ours is heavy cream reduced until almost thick & then at the end we add in a little butter & parmesan & then quickly stir to emulsify. We tried briefly keeping the cream in the hot well but it discolors & turns ugly. Actually, whenever we make sauces that use cream or butter & break with too much heat we usually put the sauce in the pan & then that pan in another pan which goes in the well. This reminds me, I used to work graveyard at a cafe/diner that served Eggs Benedict and I hate to say that we kept our Hollandaise at room temp for a whole 6 hour shift. And if you think that's bad, at least I made a fresh batch when I worked that station. Some of the other cooks, the regulars, often used the same batch that was sitting there when they came on shift. It could've been made during the previous shift (Swing), but who knows, it could have also been made during the day shift. If you ask why we did this, I don't know I wasn't in charge. And if you ask did anyone ever get sick & where was the health dept, no as far as I know & the health dept doesn't come in after midnight.


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## petemccracken

That does not "make it right!"


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## pablo1026

I sayyyaa Amen to that brotha


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## chefedb

I prefer Ala Minute  since I mix my pasta and sauce and toss it anyway. Simply putting sauce on top might have been good for spaghetti and meatballs years ago but not today, although it is still done in some peoples HOMES.

Putting in steam table  thickens, darkens and breaks down the various components of any preparation. As far as Al Dente which means To The Teeth I believe it is saying pasta should be slightly chewable and not overcooked or mushy. Putting oil or salt in water is at your option some do some don't it does not make water that much hotter and does not lubricate the pasta. The oil however as stated above does act like an anti-foaming agent in the water.


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## homemadecook

Ed Buchanan said:


> I prefer Ala Minute since I mix my pasta and sauce and toss it anyway. Simply putting sauce on top might have been good for spaghetti and meatballs years ago but not today, although it is still done in some peoples HOMES.
> 
> Putting in steam table thickens, darkens and breaks down the various components of any preparation. As far as Al Dente which means To The Teeth I believe it is saying pasta should be slightly chewable and not overcooked or mushy.
> 
> I agree with that Idea, but when you are in a business. Making a pre-cooked sauce makes the job easier and efficiently. As quality will be the issue, it can have a ways like.
> 
> 1. Just make a enough portion for the steam table and the rest, it can be stored in the refrigerator.
> 
> 2. Should you have the time for the quality of the sauce, i mean it should have shelf life.


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## petemccracken

HomeMadeCook said:


> I agree with that Idea, but when you are in a business. Making a pre-cooked sauce makes the job easier and efficiently. As quality will be the issue, it can have a ways like.
> 
> 1. Just make a enough portion for the steam table and the rest, it can be stored in the refrigerator.
> 
> 2. Should you have the time for the quality of the sauce, i mean it should have shelf life.


Making "pre-cooked sauces" may be easier and efficient, but that is NOT always the road to success in the restaurant game.

Most "a la minute" sauces, IMHO, do NOT have much "shelf life", and if you try to hold them beyond their limits, the quality will suffer immensely!

Yes, selected sauces may be pre-cooked and held in some manner, whether under refrigeration or in a bain marie, but, depending on the method of "holding", again, quality may suffer.

With regards specifically to pasta and sauces, pre-cooked pasta is definitely OUT unless there is just no other way to accommodate the guests, i.e. large crowd or banquet, IMHO.

Holding ANY sauce in a steam table is OUT, IMHO, as is plopping sauce atop pasta. Quality SUFFERS!

Holding sauces (only those that CAN be held /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif) under refrigeration with heating and tossing with pasta for service MAY work for those skilled at doing so.

A la minute sauces are just that, a la minute, pasta generally takes 6-9 minutes to cook, more than enough time for a la minute sauces.


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## gobblygook

When you refer to pre-cooked pasta, do you leave room for "par-cooked" pasta, which in my mind is just short of al dente, so that another water ride for 1-2 minutes will reach the temp and doneness prior to being introduced into the sauce?

Would you mind listing the sauces that you feel are able to be held vs those that should be made a la minute? In my mind, a stout tomato-based sauce (excepting a fresh, chunky style tomato "salsa") needs to be mixed with the herbs and spices for a significant period of time (which can be shortened by adding heat), but are not good candidates for a la minute cooking.

My background is quite limited and my professional experience is fast-food, so I'm interested in the experiences of others. I rather enjoy being incorrect as it shows I still have room to grow (as if there were any doubt).



PeteMcCracken said:


> With regards specifically to pasta and sauces, pre-cooked pasta is definitely OUT unless there is just no other way to accommodate the guests, i.e. large crowd or banquet, IMHO.


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## petemccracken

As I stated, if there is "no other way" to handle the crowd, par/pre-cooked pasta MAY be the only way to go. TBS, I don't condone par/pre-cooked pasta for operations under MY control. Can it be acceptable? Possibly, depending on the chef's desires.

Sauces that require more cooking than "a la minute" are, generally, all candidates for being held under refrigeration for last minute heating for service, among others, marinara, bolognese, or other "slow cooked sauces. Probably some cheese sauces as well, though that might prove "tricky" with extended hold times. When my restaurant was open, I ALWAYS had marinara and bolognese in the refrigerator next to the range top.

Some sauces, like Alfredo (a la BDL), are worth waiting for and, personally, I would not even attempt to "hold"!

Now, the above is colored by MY personal viewpoint and how I would serve in MY establishment. I do not do "fast food" but I do "good food fast"!

The "key" question, IMHO, is what YOU find acceptable for YOUR guests and establishment. If par-cooked pasta and "hot held sauces" are acceptable to you, go for it. You may have to "experiment" to find the best techniques to work for you.

IIRC, I remember seeing a "culinary instructor" cook pasta al dente, portion it, using a long tined fork, and placing on a plastic lined sheet pan, covering it with plastic and a damp towel, and holding in a warm oven. No water bath to heat and wash the starch off; either plate and top with sauce or toss with the heated or a la minute sauce, as desired. That particular instructor also advocated no oil in the cooking water and draining the pasta in a "restricted flow colander" adding oil to the cooking water at the time of draining so the oil would "seep through" the pasta, coating every strand, FWIW.

Now, remember, I am OLD, Opinionated, and Crotchety!


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## boar_d_laze

It's pretty simple.

If a sauce only takes a few minutes to cook, it should be cooked to order.

If it takes a long time to cook, it can probably be held a long time as well. Whether it can be held hot or should be held cold and reheated is case by case.

Some sauces are a mix of one thing and the other. For instance, if you had Fra Diavolo on the menu, you might cook the shellfish in a little olive oil then white wine, and add that to a light tomato base you had standing by. It just depends.

If you're planning to parcook ordinary noodles like spaghetti, linguine, and so forth, you're like that kid who started the thread about opening a hamburger stand and was asking about holding cabinets -- in other words you should probably be in another business. Of course, I know you're not -- I know you're just trying to figure out what the bright line rules are and asking all the right questions. But par-cooking ordinary noodles is one corner that really shouldn't be cut.

If you're talking about special pasta which require long cooking. canneloni for instance, they can be cooked ahead, stuffed, oiled, held and reheated in the oven in a small casserole. Usually, just like enchiladas, it helps to add just barely enough sauce at the last second before going into the oven, then add more hot sauce when you plate.

A lot of the pasta stuff I think you already know as a home cook and are hoping there's some way around the rules. Unfortunately, while there are lots of things you can do to make pasta better there aren't many things you can do to make it easier and faster.

One thing which will actually allow you to cook noodles faster on the line is to make them fresh, daily. It will use more of your time in prep than it will save on the line -- but time on the line is gold. And the bump in quality -- so worthwhile.

Most of this saucing questions can be answered on general saucing principles, while a few things you're going to have to figure out dish by dish.

Cost and efficiency management are critical -- you certainly don't want to _waste_ time or money anymore than you want to light your pilots with hundred dollar bills. But quality trumps.

BDL


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## gobblygook

One of the things I love about you is that you tell it like it is. I appreciate that. One thing though, don't worry about my feelings -- I'd rather you hurt them than lose my shirt because no one had the "concern" to tell me how it is. I'm still WAY up in the air. I got a tour of the kitchen of a restaurant that I'd like to open -- they're a good 30 miles away, and one of my favorite places to eat. There are aspects I can improve upon and some things that are quite great as they are.

BUT, one of the things they do is par-cook the pasta, portion, toss in baggies, toss on sheet pans and hold in the walk-in. It works for them. Without guidance to the contrary, I would certainly consider doing the same. I would prefer to use fresh pasta when possible, but pasta extruders aren't cheap. One of the huge benefits is that fresh pasta cooks so fast. As far as dried pastas go, can you suggest some good brands to use?


boar_d_laze said:


> If you're planning to parcook ordinary noodles like spaghetti, linguine, and so forth, you're like that kid who started the thread about opening a hamburger stand and was asking about holding cabinets -- in other words you should probably be in another business. Of course, I know you're not -- I know you're just trying to figure out what the bright line rules are and asking all the right questions. But par-cooking ordinary noodles is one corner that really shouldn't be cut.


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## durangojo

GG,

i don't know your operation or your clientele, but it doesn't sound to me as though your clientele is the fresh pasta eating type.... would they care or notice? what is your price point? would they be willing to pay for fresh? ... sometimes i find that there is a bit of snobbery that goes along with fresh pasta.....would it be any different with an organic dry pasta? there are some really great ones out there... there are small batch craft companies that make incredible fresh raviolis that i buy through my fish purveyor, of all people. from lobster, to black ink squid, butternut squash/chive,portobello mushroom, s.d. tomato and feta, chile relleno, spinach/3 cheese...the list goes on...also, nice tortellinis and tortellonis(bigger).. if you deal with sysco they have a line of gourmet frozen raviolis, you might want to check out. some great shapes and colors as well... as far as factory made pastas, which i think the good ones from italy are just fine, get ones that are made from 100% semolina flour...DeCecco & Del Verde are two...i don't think fresh is necessarily better compared to a good italian dry....how big is your operation? how many seats? other menu items? other cooks or just you?.... fwiw, PRECOOK my pastas(al dente, of course), against bdl's sage advice, but i am the only cook and i cook them off fresh everyday, according to use....its what works for me...hope this helps....quality does trump, but i do think there is a way to balance quality, efficiency and cost, that doesn't necessarily involve all the headaches...save the fresh pastas for your ravioli, tortellini and  your specials..

joey


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## coup-de-feu

If you are going to hold your sauces in a BM, a bit of sulfer papper cut to shape and placed on the serface of the sauce is a good way to go.  If you use a lid, condensation forms and drips into the sauce.  If you leave it uncovered some sauces will form a skin. So use sulfer papper.


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## tom cosner

OK, allow me to preface my question with a little information. I'm the director of the Hospitality Ministry (which at our church means the kitchen) at a fairly large church in Arkansas. We have a couple thousand members. I have no formal training in the culinary arts, but I've been directing the kitchen for about 5 years. We often prepare meals for groups of 20 - 350 sometimes more, using mostly institutional food items from a local vendor, i.e., foods of the frozen heat up variety. But, we do actually cook some of the meals we serve using 4 Duke convection ovens and a 6 burner professional range and a 4 burner professional range with a 36" griddle. We have three proofer/warmers and a 4 hole steam table, so whatever we cook must be cooked in batches and held pending the preparation of the rest of the batches. I would love to serve an upcoming meal for a "dinner theater" production our Drama Ministry is planning for 350 people consisting of fettuccini alfredo with salad, garlic bread and dessert. How this would work is that the guests arrive all at once, about 30 to 45 minutes before performance time and are seated at 40 round tables, 8 to a table, then the meal is handed out and they all eat in the this short period before the performance starts (we've used this scenario many times). I realize that this is an ambitious idea. But, what advice can you offer (besides the obvious advice not to try it), we're so tired of sreving up the same generic meals? BTW, what I'm talking about here is a "real" alfredo made with heavy cream, butter, and fresh grated parmesan and romano cheeses.


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## chefwriter

Tom, 

First, you should repost this as a fresh question. It will  not get as good a reply following someone else's post. 

Second, I'm not sure I understand what your question is. I'll jump to the conclusion it is related to how to go about serving alfredo to that many people?

So I'll answer that. 

Make everything else ahead of time. Cook the pasta ahead. Have all the ingredients for the sauce ready to go. Then about half an hour before service, begin making sauce. By the time the sauce is ready, the rest should be moving right along. The rest is like any other large meal and it sounds like you've done plenty of those. 

Hope this helps. If this did not answer your question, post a reply. I'll check back.


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## tom cosner

Thanks, Writer, I took your advice and moved this question to a new thread, as you've aleady noticed. Your advice here and there is greatly appreciated.


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