# Old school vs. 'New' school chefs



## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Got into a heated, yet jovial discussion with the crew about old school versus the 'new' school of chefs and cooks. The talk evolved from the case for/against going to culinary school, needing to know the classics, etc. So, I was wondering.... what do you think defines the newer cooking school of thought, what defines the old? It isn't a black and white issue, but several shades in between. Interested in what you think.


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## cheffred (Aug 25, 2014)

Greetings and Salutations!

I have been classically trained in french cuisine. I am always in learning mode ready to pick up a new technique or idea.

I have no idea what they are teaching culinary students today. They don't teach the classics apparently.

Some don't understand basic french culinary terms,some don't know the Mother sauces.

They seem to favor all the modern techniques like molecular gastronomy etc.

I don't get it. I favor learning the classics and learning to train your palette,learning authentic cuisine,and seasoning your food.

Then go ahead and explore all you want,as long as you are grounded in what good food should taste like.

Just my humble thoughts.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

old school = demi glace

new school = glace de viande

modernist school = beef noodles


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Most molecular gastronomists I know are classically trained, but there are really only a few in my city (sadly).

To me I look at what dues have been paid. I don't think formal training is necessary but I do believe it is a huge asset. You have to be fairly dedicated to be self taught, and alot of people in general lack the drive to really learn foundational skills and theory.

There are alot of fairweather fans in this industry who will probably not be dedicating their lives to professional cookery.


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## dobzre (Mar 3, 2011)

Beef Noodles LOL!

For me its the use of mother sauces vs pan sauces made a la minute. As well as plating styles: stacked with ornate garnishes on gold plated plates vs minimalist dishes with lots of negative space on pure white plates.

Theres even discrepancies within the "new school." Thomas Keller being the Old New School, Daniel Humm New School and René Redzepi being the new New School where sauces are almost non-existent and the food is very much un-tampered with, i.e. were not even peeling the vegetables anymore.

I do see the celebrity chef *Icon* making a return much like your French monarch-ish types of the 70's and 80's... A book I was very much anticipating, that turned out to be a huge let down what with more info and glamour shots of the chef than the food itself...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Meh.... sooner or later "new school" will become "old school".

You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.  You gotta learn how to make a cold emulsion (mayo) before you can go hog wild with some kind of new-school cold emulsion.

Pan sauces vs mother sauces? Ummm... what do you deglaze the pan with?

How do you make a glace de viande if you can make a jus?


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

With the nmber of restaurants in this country which use prepackaged product, combined with the limited labor pool interested in kitchen work, It's harder to find people with well rounded knowledge gained from strictly working. If you can find that place, great, but they are more & more concentrated on the high end


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

When I read industry periodicals, all I ever read about are fast foods, fast casual, fast, fast, fast.

It's no wonder the culinary schools are gearing their education processes toward this part of the industry.

OTOH, I am also reading about the demise of fast food in our culture, and the re-introduction of basic well made foods that use locally grown and locally processed ingredients.

The food "police" would have you believe that eating in restaurants is bad for your health due to all the processed convenience products they use, however, it is all about those processed foods to begin with.

Culinary schools are keeping up with what the industry needs and wants.

Right now, our industry is all about giving the client what it wants, and in most cases, that is large portions, that don't cost a lot.

Hopefully the culinary industry is teaching it's future Chef's the need for more intelligent menu development, using local ingredients, when possible, smaller portions to offer, and keeping nutrition in the back of the mind as well.

The new school students of today will become the old school camp of tomorrow. It's a never ending cycle.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

What about the mindset? Noticing the sense of entitlement creeping into the younger crew. Less work, fewer hours, more pay... but still the dream of restaurant ownership. Aree with @Chefross, it is certainly a never ending cycle... yesterday's new school is tomorrow's old school.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Jim Berman said:


> What about the mindset? Noticing the sense of entitlement creeping into the younger crew. Less work, fewer hours, more pay... but still the dream of restaurant ownership.


... I don't know if this is a fair generalization to be making. Do you work in a relatively modern fine dining restaurant? "Less work?" "Fewer hours?" "More pay?" Not sure about any of this...


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Hi, @SpoiledBroth. Yes, it is definitely a generalization and I don't mean any offense with that. My point is, in the spirit of new vs. old, that there is (may be) a sense of wanting things to happen more quickly without dues being paid. It used to be the vertical climb to chefdom. Whereas it seems there is a good bit of skipping over dishwasher/prep/salad/sous chef responsibilities and jumping right to the head of the class. I am totally, 1000% percent in support of new energy wanting to tackle this industry. I love the energy and vitality of the younger crew wanting to do locally-cultivated products in the form of food trucks, for instance, as a venue. I think that is great mojo. I guess, my concern is that there may not be an appreciation of what it takes to get there rather than just expecting it to appear with little effort. History tells us: that which is easily gotten is easily lost.


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## cheffred (Aug 25, 2014)

I agree with you Jim. There is much needed youth needed in the industry without the entitlement and attitude.(what are they putting in the water?)

Just like everyone wants food and services fast,Those entering the industry want success ,fame, and fortune fast too.

What gets me is that people want all your knowledge,wisdom,techniques etc. to be given to them. Really?

Do you know how long it took me to acquire the what I have? Even those I apprenticed under told me they can't give me all the secrets

I have to begin my journey of learning for myself.


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

I believe the children are the future [emoji]128540[/emoji]


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Chef Jim !

I blame the schools for setting young peoples mindsets. Some of them tell them "Oh when you graduate you will be the chef at ?" They don't tell them that you have to put in your time first.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Jim Berman said:


> Hi, @SpoiledBroth
> . Yes, it is definitely a generalization and I don't mean any offense with that. My point is, in the spirit of new vs. old, that there is (may be) a sense of wanting things to happen more quickly without dues being paid. It used to be the vertical climb to chefdom. Whereas it seems there is a good bit of skipping over dishwasher/prep/salad/sous chef responsibilities and jumping right to the head of the class. I am totally, 1000% percent in support of new energy wanting to tackle this industry. I love the energy and vitality of the younger crew wanting to do locally-cultivated products in the form of food trucks, for instance, as a venue. I think that is great mojo. I guess, my concern is that there may not be an appreciation of what it takes to get there rather than just expecting it to appear with little effort. History tells us: that which is easily gotten is easily lost.


Ok, I get the paying dues, to a certain extent. We all know you don't need to have been a potwasher to run a kitchen! The thing is, you're assuming that any "new school chef" doesn't have perennial skills or technique or theory... I supposed I should mention we're not quite at rejecting french cooking where I live, all the upscaled places have run savoury beignets as a special in the last few months, and reading the menus you can see the occasional knod to classical french cooking. They all change their menus on a weekly if not daily basis. Yes, they're all using immersion baths and foams and trendy ingredients... The thing is, none of these are turnkey solutions. They're not ordering in confit legs from whatever specialty distributor and warming them through, they age their own meat, everything EVERYTHING (vinegar, brioche hamburger buns included) is made on site-- it's insane.

At least, in my city, I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I was once of the same school of thought by the way, but if you go actually stage in one of these kitchens you'll see it's not as much of a shortcut as you may think. And for what its worth a few of the self-financed upscale places in town are notable for paying the lowest wages (including to its' sous). We have a bit of an inverse situation here where fast casual chefs can make 50, 60k a year without being able to make a roux. That's what I hate.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

@chefedb - I agree with you... too many empty promises. So the question has to be asked: does school contribute to the 'new' thinking?


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

I would think that it would be some chefs teaching the classes in culinary school that might be contributing to any ideas about immediate success and any semblance of glory from working in the kitchen.

At my school, St. Philip's College, all of the chefs in the program that I met and learned under went out of their way to emphasize the tedium of the kitchen. One in particular throughout the year made sure that all of the students knew that it was hot, wet, backbreaking, sometimes bloody work.

At the beginning of my first semester, first day of Intro to Cooking, he said that if anyone of the students in the class was inspired to be a cook with the hopes of being a chef quickly and getting a tv show, that culinary school might not be the best idea for them. He said that it might be a good idea to just find a job in a kitchen and go from there.

If there are culinary students and graduates under the impression that school will get them a higher wage and notoriety, immediately, it would be wise for them to look at all of the graduates of any other school of any other discipline and see how that's going...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Jim Berman said:


> @chefedb - I agree with you... too many empty promises. So the question has to be asked: does school contribute to the 'new' thinking?


My personal feeling is that (culinary)schools would be very, very, very different if they would follow one simple rule:

-Don't accept students that don't have at least 1 year working experience in a food service enviroment

This could be in any capacity--dishwasher, prep cook, what ever.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

foodpump said:


> My personal feeling is that (culinary)schools would be very, very, very different if they would follow one simple rule:
> 
> -Don't accept students that don't have at least 1 year working experience in a food service enviroment
> 
> This could be in any capacity--dishwasher, prep cook, what ever.


I don't know, I went to culinary school back in the dark ages before the proliferation of the diploma mills of today. Some of the best students turned out to be people that had never worked in restaurants before. Conversely some of the worst students were those with the most experience. Even so, I still strongly advise people to work in the industry before attending culinary school. To me it only seems to make good sense.

A free market society by it's very nature pretty much insures people get what they ask for, however this is not exactly the same thing as getting what they want. The guests want bigger portions, better food, and cheaper prices. The employees want shorter hours, more pay, to be a chef right away. What both don't realize is that what they are asking for is the demise of the small independent fine dining restaurant. I live in a small rural county. 15 years ago there were 3 or 4 such establishments. Now there is 1.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

I look at earlier generations as being entitled in the fact that our government is so bloated alm the young people back then with any brains were given a " career". All the new school gets is a job, if they are lucky.

Doing the best you can, thats all I ask out of anyone. Only floater I ever admired is Jaromir Jagr.


Every profession has this dynamic. Sure glad I didnt pick the tech field, they have kids coding in grade 2 now!

So, in a nutshell, I look at the " schools" of thought as generational gaps. Age. Not really in terms of culinary prowess or paths or anything like that. Everyones path is different, always has been that way, always will be. There is no " school".

Edited heavily haha.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

" I don't have a credit card and no my parents can't pay either because they refuse to pay for my culinary career because it's not a real job to them. So if anyone can help me out that would be much appreciated."
-AStevens

This sums up old school thought. And new school reality.
The old school can be proud of the "pan"demic we are experiencing.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Back when I went to college in the late 70's there was a class that was an introduction to the restaurant world.

It was taught (??) by a hardened veteran of the industry.

The class was basically horror stories about life in the restaurant world back then.

And back then, these WERE horror stories, enough so, that the class went from 300 or so initially down to 50 or so by semesters' end.

The instructor managed to weed out a couple hundred "wanna bees" before these people made the mistake of their lives.

For me.........the new culinary graduates of today are not all created equal. I see faces right out of college that have some basic skills but the one thing that bothers me is the attitude.

For me.........If a young brand new employee is not willing to do whatever it takes, and shows earnest instead of conceit, I'm happy.

As we Chefs always try to re-enforce, it is that they will never ask an employee to do something they themselves, wouldn't do, and that includes cleaning toilets.,


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

This is an interesting thread but there is one thing I am not quite sure on, what are talking about when we say Old and New school? Cooking styles? Work ethic? Expectations of career? View of what customer services means?

These, among other things, have all evolved or shifted but I do not think that they have changed in lock step. 

It's not just a change in chefs either, there are massive shifts in restaurant culture, not to mention dinners. 

Many of us have commented on the idea that chefs desire some degree of celebrity. I personally haven't seen much of this, but celebrity culture is a little less pronounced in Canada. But I have seen ripple effects on customers, and even worse, owners. Customers making comments are frequently written full of jargon and bizarre and usually false observations. I don't even mean bad reviews either, some of most glowing reviews I have had were so wildly off base on facts that I wondered just how drunk the reviewer was when they ate.

The other side of of the fame seeking that I see more frequently is younger cooks being heavily motivated by tell all books like Kitchen Confidential. To a certain segment of the population they take the wrong lessons. "I like cocaine and being a macho jerk! This is the life for me!"

Anyway, this is very interesting, let's keep it going.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

> This is an interesting thread but there is one thing I am not quite sure on, what are talking about when we say Old and New school? Cooking styles? Work ethic? Expectations of career? View of what customer services means?


All of the above. I was hoping somebody would ask this! I think the old/new schools of thought different in exactly all the areas you mentioned. Cooking style, for instance, is just one aspect. Longevity. Pay expectations. Training. Yes, an enlightening thread. And grateful for that.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Well then, let's clarify 'old school' vs. 'new school' shall we (for those who are having a bit of difficulty with the 2)

Old school....the Chef is an alcoholic,

yells,

throws things,

has anger issues,

treats employees with the least amount of respect and works them as if they were slaves instead.

This Chef also deliberately sabotages his/her staff just for the hell of it.

New school....the Chef doesn't need to tell everyone he's in charge, his demeanor says it all.

He is organized and treats his staff as equal peers.

He develops a mentor attitude and displays nothing but the most professional manner in all things.

His staff is eager and willing to follow him in all things.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I feel the "new school" is a direct result of technology and media. One can gather just about any type of information or reference at their fingertips.

We did not have this in the "old school". While learning in Europe 40+ years ago it was so much different. If I knew  I was going to see a choux paste or poached eggs the next day I had to make

certain I saw it or it would be a while before I might see it again. Yes, I walked to the bookstore and looked through cookbooks until they kicked me out, but it wasn't the same thing.

just sayin


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

187.gif




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spoiledbroth


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Nov 22, 2014







this is gonna get ugly

so who do we blame for fast casual? old school chefs wouldn't it be? thats what I hate about Canada. everyone is happy to pay 15 bucks for a hamburger patty that comes out of a box, from a freezer on a bun that comes out of a box from a freezer with sauces that come out of a box from a freezer etc.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

panini said:


> I feel the "new school" is a direct result of technology and media. One can gather just about any type of information or reference at their fingertips.
> 
> We did not have this in the "old school". While learning in Europe 40+ years ago it was so much different. If I knew I was going to see a choux paste or poached eggs the next day I had to make
> 
> ...


Culinary education in Europe far surpasses what we have here.

Perhaps the 'old school' mentality still exists there?????


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...bbing-and-slapping-in-the-face-with-wet-fish/


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## mannlicher (Jan 8, 2006)

I have two 'twenty something' nephews that have graduated from school, and are climbing the ladder.  One went to CIA in New York, the other to J&W in Miami.

They are both working very long hours, and working very hard to learn the real world vs the academic world of modern restaurant life.

I don't see either of them with anything but a sterling work ethic,  a good grounding in classical cooking, and a burning desire to stand out from the crowd.

Come to think of it, that's what counted 50 years ago, when I first got into food service.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/19/chefs-lift-the-lid-on-violence-in-french-kitchens-scalding-kicking-stabbing-and-slapping-in-the-face-with-wet-fish/

Sorry Allen but I highly doubt that signing a document changes a person from aggressive to non-violent.

That's something best left to a psychiatrist or other mental health professional.

Just sayin'


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Chefross said:


> Culinary education in Europe far surpasses what we have here.
> 
> Perhaps the 'old school' mentality still exists there?????


That's because most European nations have an apprenticeship system, where, typically, the cooks's apprentice(15-16 yrs old) goes to work 4 days/week and one day in school for 3 years. Upon completing the apprenticeship, the cook has 3 solid years of work experience behind him/her, a federal gov't generated credential, and no student loan.

This is a far cry from the N.American model where the culinary school graduate --assuming s/he had no experience prior to school--still has "0" work experience upon graduating, is "crammed full" of knowledge, but has no opportunity to make this knowledge and related techniques part of muscle memory and routine.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm not sayin' ... I'm just sayin' ... but all the schools anywhere at all near me have restaurants attached to the school. All the students work in those restaurants. Both the school and restaurant nearest me are very high-level operations.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@IceMan,

and I will bet you 10.00 I can name 4 out of the 5 desserts on the menu. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## rbrad (Apr 29, 2011)

SpoiledBroth said:


> 187.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not everyone in Canada is happy to pay for that but sometimes people,for some reason will go to a Jack Astor's or one of those places out of convenience....I blame suburbanization and the chokehold of taxation that the federal and provincial governments place on the hospitality business.Back to the topic.....old school used to mean a good work ethic,discipline and maturity.Styles of cooking are evolving so quickly that I don't think it's that easy or fair to draw a line.It will be ridiculous when it becomes neccesary to use music industry terms.........imagine to be known as a survivor you needed to tell people that you were influenced by the classics but you still remember to this day the first time you saw Keith Floyd on TV and realized that food didn't need to be so stuctured and you started your experimental phase.......then you borrowed a Norman Van Aken book and became a pioneer in regional cuisine...........then came the shaved head,the goatee,the attempted writing career after reading Kitchen Confidential and now you're keeping it so real you are invited to tattoo conventions and love to show your nose to tail meat chart ink.......they call you boil in the bag but you wish you were known as The Alchemist.Don't worry....someday you'll be retro and the foodies will love you again.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree. I am old enough to have visited and met with Mrs. Roth and Joe Amendola  from the C.I.A which was located across the street from Yale University in Hartford. It was a place where G.I s coming home from the war went to school and learned how to cook . It started under the old G.I. bill .

For an outlet they fed the Yale Football Team daily. Nothing came already made everything was scratch. There was no fast food. It started out as a storefront.  I attended a few lectures there by Real Chefs like Louis Bartenbach, Ernest Meir, Joe Amendola . That's when you paid attention and learning was beaten into you.  THOSE WERE THE GOOL OLD DAYS


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

IceMan said:


> I'm not sayin' ... I'm just sayin' ... but all the schools anywhere at all near me have restaurants attached to the school. All the students work in those restaurants. Both the school and restaurant nearest me are very high-level operations.


Yeah, I 've ben in those restaurants.

Sally" gets a whopping 3 hrs to prep her Caesar salad mise, "Bobby" gets 2 hrs and 3 re-tries for his bechemel sauce. "Fred" screws up on his mashed pots and has to re-do again. and "Barney" has his text book propped open and tenderloin warming up as he cuts filets.

Is this typical for a modern restaurant? Would any of us last more than 1 day if we pulled that kind of cr*p at our jobs?


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

> Old school....the Chef is an alcoholic,
> 
> yells,
> 
> ...


While I worked under a number of the "old school" chefs you describe, I don't know that I'd agree that your statement characterizing "old school" chefs. The vast majority of what I consider to be "old school" chefs were a little of both of what you describe. The best chefs I worked under were very militaristic-you did it their way or you got out, and you didn't question the chef. You could ask him questions, but you never questioned him, his authority, or the way he did things. I think there is a lot to be said for that kind of learning, especially for young cooks that don't know a whole lot. He definitely did not treat us as equals, but he didn't treat us poorly either. We were his students and he was our teacher, and while he was a great mentor we were always reminded of what our roles and what his role was in the relationship and it was not equal, nor would we ever be so bold as to consider ourselves as his equal. Part of the problem with many new, young cooks (not all but a lot of them) is that they forget that the teacher-student dynamic is intrinsicly unequal. They feel entitled, and think that their opinion deserves to be heard and considered. Sorry, but it doesn't.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefedb

We must be around the same age. Chef Amendola, and Socrares Inonog were my favorite US mentors. They would never tell you they paid their dues, you just knew it. Thanks for the memories.

Oh @IceMan,

Pot de Creme

Poached Pears

Frangiapan Torte

Some type of Crème Brulee

Ice cream or sorbet

Molten cake


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Here is the one closest to my home. The place that has the College of DuPage's culinary students.






  








Image




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Iceman


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Nov 23, 2014







 *(pic is a link)*

Here are the menus: 
_*Lunch*_
_*Dinner*_
_*Sunday Brunch*_
_*Wine List*_






  








Image




__
Iceman


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Nov 23, 2014







 *(pic is a link)*
*College of DuPage* is a community college. It is one of the finest in the country. They have a very good culinary program.

_foodpump ... you can take your attitude, and shove it._


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

@ChefrossNothing to be sorry about, that was just my end run around the lionization of how this are in Europe. Things are screwed up all over. That said, I do think a public declaration, while not solving a problem, at least admits that there is a problem. Baby steps.

And my fear is coming true, that this is starting to devolve into a "School" vs "Trenches" thing (again).


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

@IceMan @foodpump you're both right. There some VERY good community college programs with great restaurants run by great chefs. Because it PAYS, and it doesn't involve 80 hour weeks, they can attract real talent. In a fair sized school, a student will go through multiple high end kitchens plus a required externship. They might not be turning a burning with the best of us, but they deserve to be taken at least a little seriously.
Unfortunatly it completely depends on the school. The CC Culinary I attended was more like what foodpump describes; but, where it really shines was with studenys with experience. As I mentioned in my earlier post, so many restaurants use out of the bag/box products that a lot of people come into this business with not much chance to learn more than rudimentary skills. So, take someone with a year or two on a busy line, and show them how to make all the stuff that came in from sysco- you can say "poached pears, creme brulee, same old same old", but that's teaching the BASICS, which is what a lot of people need to even get jobs in better places. 
But not many people that didn't have experience even bothered to finish- in the class that started with me, I don't think any. So maybe it's helping weed them out too?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

What is old school cooking I guess.. 
No technique in plating?
No exotic ingredients?
Few local ingredients? (it est from the sunny fields of syscocorp)
Intercontinental menu?
Continental menu?
Wedge salad? (lol)


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Pete said:


> While I worked under a number of the "old school" chefs you describe, I don't know that I'd agree that your statement characterizing "old school" chefs. The vast majority of what I consider to be "old school" chefs were a little of both of what you describe. The best chefs I worked under were very militaristic-you did it their way or you got out, and you didn't question the chef. You could ask him questions, but you never questioned him, his authority, or the way he did things. I think there is a lot to be said for that kind of learning, especially for young cooks that don't know a whole lot. He definitely did not treat us as equals, but he didn't treat us poorly either. We were his students and he was our teacher, and while he was a great mentor we were always reminded of what our roles and what his role was in the relationship and it was not equal, nor would we ever be so bold as to consider ourselves as his equal. Part of the problem with many new, young cooks (not all but a lot of them) is that they forget that the teacher-student dynamic is intrinsicly unequal. They feel entitled, and think that their opinion deserves to be heard and considered. Sorry, but it doesn't.


Pete, I know that this is purely subjective and all depends on the work experiences of those involved.

Back in the 50's-60'70's Chefs were a totally different breed.

With the advent of culinary knowledge taking the forefront, and now everyone thinks they are a Chef with the least bit of knowledge under their belts.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

SpoiledBroth said:


> What is old school cooking I guess..
> No technique in plating?
> No exotic ingredients?
> Few local ingredients? (it est from the sunny fields of syscocorp)
> ...


All of that really has nothing to do with the chef though. I admit, the day I was given full charge of a menu I was straddling the space between old and new emerging and the way I cook nowadays is still old school.

From my observations, the older masters were extremely adept at fabrication. Breaking down a bird, chopping shallots, making vinaigrettes 1 cup at a time, They were all extremely skilful with a paring knife. A lot of old school sauciers were also given full responsibility for saute line desserts, which means souffles, zabagliones, cremes, caramel sauces, etc. If you want to talk about presentation a lot of old school chefs loved grand presentations. The tableside carving, filet a sole at the table, Russian service. Many of these traditional methods of presentation were lost for the sake of profits, but that does not mean it left our soul. Nowadays the style is different, but what is inside is still the same.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

> "...then came the shaved head,the goatee,the attempted writing career after reading Kitchen Confidential and now you're keeping it so real you are invited to tattoo conventions..."


 Wow! @rbrad - you nailed me... down to the tattoos... but no invite to conventions...yet. And, I started writing before Kitchen Confidential. But, wow! That was accurate.


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## rbrad (Apr 29, 2011)

Jim Berman said:


> Wow! @rbrad
> - you nailed me... down to the tattoos... but no invite to conventions...yet. And, I started writing before Kitchen Confidential. But, wow! That was accurate.


Jim.....from your picture I always imagined you more as an old school pirate biker chef.I wasn't talking about anyone in particular but was comparing the stages of images that some chefs go through as they try to remain new school while maintaining old school standards.With the popularity of chef culture these days it's not a lot different than the stages of a rock stars career.The part about seeing Keith Floyd really was my Beatles on The Ed Sullivan Show moment.I recently saw a commercial for The Hard Rock Cafe and they really seem to be selling that rock star chef image.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

kuan said:


> All of that really has nothing to do with the chef though. I admit, the day I was given full charge of a menu I was straddling the space between old and new emerging and the way I cook nowadays is still old school.


How does it have nothing to do with the chef?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

SpoiledBroth said:


> How does it have nothing to do with the chef?


You can only do what you can with what you have. You can't work on 2056 today, or can you? I mean, why didn't Henry Ford just go ahead and build a Tesla?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

kuan said:


> You can only do what you can with what you have. You can't work on 2056 today, or can you? I mean, why didn't Henry Ford just go ahead and build a Tesla?


I'm not being intentionally thick when I say I still don't understand.


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## rbrad (Apr 29, 2011)

SpoiledBroth said:


> I'm not being intentionally thick when I say I still don't understand.


What Kuan is saying is that you need to take from the past to change the future.Chefs twenty or thirty years ago didn't have access to the same ingredients or in some cases equipment so as changes occur you can move forward.That's why Orville and Wilbur didn't invent a 747 or Steve Jobs didn't come up with an iPad thirty years ago.......progress is a series of small steps with the occacional leap.I'm pretty sure the Ferran brothers were shown how to slice a red pepper and mastered paella before they revolutionized cooking techniques and they would have had their own inflences from old school Spanish chefs.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Not going to disagree there. however most modern cooking seems to me to be old hat. alot of throw backs to escoffier now. modern take on plating, maybe an intellectually delightful ingredient substitution et voila. To me this is not comparing biplanes with commercial airliners, far from it. 

Foams have existed in one form or another longer than most people in this thread have been alive. Ever heard of a syllabub? Gee there's a dessert from the 19th century.

I'm still struggling to pin down the difference between old and new school.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

chefboyOG said:


> "Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell


Old school Chefs vs New school Chefs. I think the gray area here is school. Just eliminate it. Old Chefs VS New Chefs


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## rbrad (Apr 29, 2011)

What if most people here can agree they're not old or new but middle school.I think I said it earlier but I think it comes down to work ethic and the way you run a business.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

In poring over the responses, it seems the commonality comes down to a few glaring aspects:

<> Education

<> Technique

<> Work ethic

<> Professionalism

So, it seems that @SpoiledBroth's snarky...


> No technique in plating?
> No exotic ingredients?
> Few local ingredients? (it est from the sunny fields of syscocorp)
> Intercontinental menu?
> ...


...might be interpreted with:

No technique? No, not at all. Look at some of Escoffier's presentations. The aspic work. The symmetrical displays, the savvy knife work. The tiers. Are they the same as Ferran Adria's plates at El Bulli? No, but very sophisticated plating, nonetheless. @kuan said it best with "You can only do what you can with what you have."

No exotic ingredients? Exotic is a subjective term. I remember when kiwi, kumquats and bison were exotic. Maybe the definition of exotic parallels time; innovations in shipping, for instance, have determined what we have and when we get it.

Few local ingredients? The turn to local ingredients as a new movement has only been interrupted for the last 70 years. Before that, we _only_ ate what was local and in season. By necessity! There weren't tomatoes in January in New York because there were few economical methods of transportation for such a crop. Prior to, that's all there was... local, seasonal!

Intercontinental menu? Ahhhh.... America as a great melting pot... or tossed salad. What was once fusion cuisine is now... ordinary. Diners offer representations from near and far. Fine dining has eclectic ingredients as part of the standard larder. The influence from futuristic cuisine mingles effortlessly with once verboten ingredients. So, the spectrum of menu offerings is... without borders?

Maybe the old/new school is one school... just age separates us?


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Jim,
You are right. I think you may have know it all along. There is no school. Only learning and teaching.

“You must unlearn what you have learned.”
- Yoda

If you have learned there are schools of thought, you must unlearn that there are schools of thought. 

New becomes old, history repeats itself etc etc. 

OG


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## aussiechefno1 (Nov 25, 2014)

One of the biggest challenges to day is due to television shows and the amount of home cooks who think they know what its like to give blood, sweat and tears 18 hrs a day.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_WOW._


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Yes let's all pretend that nobody who entered the industry after 1979 put in any work to get where they are, because that's productive?  

Jim I don't disagree with you. I wasn't actually positing any of those things seriously except the wedge salad; I don't even know if the term continental is used to describe menus as much as hotel and airplane complementary breakfast these days.

We had a chat in the kitchen tonight about how someone on his apprenticeship was told by chef that flour used to be browned in the oven on a baking tray prior to being incorporated into butter for a roux. Can anyone confirm that? I'm skeptical of pretty much anything uttered at work, though this anecdote especially. In the event the story were true, this perhaps is the difference between new and old? Cutting corners as it were? I couldn't imagine having to repeat that procedure a la minute.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The old vs. new is more about the personality issue then work ethic.

By and large cooking technique, irrespective of the new tools and equipment of the modern kitchen, have changed little.

Chicken noodle soup recipe in  1943 is still made the same way today. (lol except no chicken base....ha-ha...)

Be mindful that cooks working their way up in 50'-60's and 70's were exposed to working conditions different then ours now.

The Chefs that ran those places also grew up through the system and were hardened by being abused, yelled at, slapped, burned, etc.....

Normal human nature would explain why this temperament was continued and passed on to the next generation of cooks.

Today culinary schools and the like, push teamwork and responsibility, changing the culture of the kitchen from one of a hierarchy to a democracy where cooks have input and ideas are exchanged to a certain degree. While a Chef is in charge, getting feedback from staff, and growing is a good thing.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Chef Ross is right Example  way back in the early 60s I worked at a very exclusive hotel in New York. It was around St .Patrick's day and my job for the day was to cook the corned beefs. They were simmering away in 2 of the huge steam kettles and I decided to test them for doneness. I proceeded to get the huge pitchfork that was standing by the kettle. All of a sudden the chef a famous Frenchman ran up to me from the other side of the kitchen screaming"":Never stab the meat test with you fingers" From that day on I NEVER stuck anything into any type of meat while cooking ""He was correct.  That's how you learned .

                                               That my friends was old school !!


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I'm trying to picture that pitchfork.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

I have been thinking about this and I am pretty certain that there are going to be a lot of regional differences. In my market, which is urban but small, the old guard of fine dinning is largely stemming from three or four highly successful and charismatic chefs. You can really see the style they imbued in their former apprentices, there is a real trickle down in around here. For us, I would say the new school is generation breaking away from these building blocks.

Some more general shifts I think are worth noting

I think more chefs are less interested in working in hotels and more traditional large "grand" dining rooms, in favour of more smaller, quirky spots.

Technique is now considered more important then repertoire. 

Chefs tend to define their cooking by some sort of ethical or philosophic label rather than cuisine.

Chefs are becoming more and more "self taught", that is to say, learning new to them technique via online research and experimentation than by being shown by either a chef or instructor. This has lead to "reach/grasp" issues, but also a much more open and sharing community.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

KUAN In those days you used a boat oar to stir the soup in the kettles there was no stainless steel paddles. A pitchfork to take things out of kettle from the bottom, and a shovel to take out all the cooked bones and veges .from any stock you made


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Guess they were too cheap to buy a sieve


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Chef Ed doesn't need a strainer.  The lumps in the gravy turn into liquid when they see him.


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## thebeef (Nov 27, 2014)

Not to step on any toes but some food for thought.

When I would hire chefs to work under me I really didn't care what their pedigree was because I have seen great pedigree young chefs do worse than a dishwasher getting his first chance at making a side dish. I tend to think of cooking as a Culinary Art! Just like the other arts you don't always need the high education to be extraordinary at it, but the dedication and passion could carry you farther than a classroom. I guess it depends on what you set out to do as a young aspiring chef.

So when I would hire someone I would consider their pedigree but ask them to make me some variation of one of my dishes and then I would ask them "Try to teach me something about your dish I probably wouldn't know". If you don't know anything new or can't do anything interesting then I could hire someone with moderate training and teach them how to make my exact dishes in the restaurant and call it a day and pay them half the price of what a pedigree young chef would be expecting.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

doesn't pedigree usually refer to where you've worked, not where you were trained? most people with formal training and no exp are as useful as tits on a bull, I think we can all agree on that.


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## jwjohnson (Dec 23, 2014)

Greetings,

I just would like to say that every one titles themselves a "chef" I have dozens of applications and resumes of people who claim they are a chef, who claim they can run a kitchen with 2 years experience behind them. I personally believe that the garbage on television and media is responsible for much of this. Today's generation is not humble, not willing to learn, and very entitled to their own opinion and "know it all attitude" I have seen culinary graduates loose control under pressure from a 5 entree ticket. Ego has replaced humility. My cooks ask whats the recipe to make this or that. I do not tell them, I say look it up, grab a cookbook, get online. If I want to learn I put the effort in to research and experiment. I have 32 years in the business and still know nothing, I am in a constant state of learning. I'm tired of the look on a cooks face that I hurt their feelings because I say it is to salty, or its overcooked, etc. And I am the bad guy because I did not praise their effort. We are here for the client, for the passion of cooking and all the crap that comes within the kitchen.

Apologies for the rant.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

You my friend are 100% correct  . I was in this business for over 50 years and learned something new daily. Even  though I am retired I still experiment and learn. It keeps the brain active.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

chefedb said:


> You my friend are 100% correct . I was in this business for over 50 years and learned something new daily. Even though I am retired I still experiment and learn. It keeps the brain active.


40 years here and ditto my friend....except I'm not retired just yet.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Over 45 yrs. and still learning.

 I'm tired of the look on a cooks face that I hurt their feelings because I say it is to salty, or its overcooked, etc. And I am the bad guy because I did not praise their effort. We are here for the client, for the passion of cooking and all the crap that comes within the kitchen. Quote

Chef, I'm not so sure you can atttribute that attitude to TV and such totally. I have branched out into some other businesses over the past ten years and have found the same attitude. I think it is a generational thing. Starting in school, these kids are coddled and rewarded for every little thing. Oh Alan, you get a star for going potty today! Johnny, you get a big star for not hitting Mary today!

  I saw this early on and had my son in parochial schools from the start. Even in high school they stood up and greeted the monk or teacher as they entered a room. He has done very well and appreciates the education he got, and he does know right from wrong and respect.


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## jwjohnson (Dec 23, 2014)

Greetings,

Agreed!

I should have clarified my post better. I meant to say that the celebrity cooking,entertainment crap on television influences everyone to believe they are a "chef" I have heard countless conversations of cooks going on about the shows on the foodie network and so on. Just because someone can make a consomme, creme brulee, beef bourguignon, or whatever does not make you a chef. I have heard countless times cooks telling others they are the chef. I must correct them in a firm but loving way. The media/entertainment has blown things out of proportion. Panini, what your saying is correct.

My two favorite sayings in this business are: Actions speak louder than words, and Everyone is the chef, but the chef

You are blessed.


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## cheffred (Aug 25, 2014)

Hi Chefs

I tell people all the time you may make very good food,hell even cook better than me however,

not everyone can run a kitchen and not freak out for example when you have twenty chits all at once 

all wanting different items.


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## cheffred (Aug 25, 2014)

Merry Christmas to all Happy Holidays

Enjoy your family and loved ones and God bless!


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

Cooking is an Art. As with all Arts, true mastery can never be achieved...the creatives keep it in flux for posterity.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Using the ideas everybody offered above and talking with others, I put together an article for Chef Life Magazine. Here is the article (reprinted from http://cheflifemagazine.squarespace.com/jim-berman-blog/):

Gages and a tattoo of "chef" across the knuckles or tight-cropped, Marine-style haircut and a metal-banded wristwatch? Classic white, ten-button chef coat, black pants or bowling-alley shirt, Chuck Taylor high tops and jeans? A pastel pullover or True Cooks shirt when stepping out of the kitchen? Barking and regimented drilling or collaborative learning with peer decision making? All variables that make strides to define the old and new schools of cooking. Old school is as much a state of mind as it is a collection of practices. Style, if you will. So the same should be said for new schoolers. Defining the two is as daunting as it is, well, indefinable. Without one there is no other. The new movement that is grounded in classical methods would be dead if there were nobody around to ply their practice. So where does that leave the mother sauces? Painfully clear is that there are no definitive lines between the old school and the new. Rather, many dotted, dashed and broken segments that allow for osmosis of ideas to traverse generational ways of thinking.

*Tattooed and renegade spirits let loose in a kitchen of nonconformity*

Marco Pierre White is a kitchen bad ass. Look at his plates. A conformist? By today's kitchen benchmark, a neoclassical purist. By the standards of Jaques Pepin, a cleaver-wielding renegade. Where there was once a regal nod to high cuisine, traditional sauces, complicated platings and presentations, the same is happening with super premium ingredients, equally elaborate visuals and complex techniques. Yes, the techniques have evolved-or morphed-however you look at it, but the complexity may be no different. What was once rendered, reduced, strained and mounted is now geleed, foamed and infused. Grilled cheese was a once croque monsieur. Now it's burata, fig spread and caramelized apples between brioche. Who is right? Which is better? Perhaps Charlie Trotter, Renee Redzepi, Thomas Kelleher are the faces of the New School. They will be old schoolers. Undeniably, they will. Classically trained or not, tomorrow their food will be yesterday's points of reference.

*A bus tub of bad ideas*

The fusion food that once was panned as a deliberate attempt of being different for the sake of being different is now as commonplace as the culinary horizon from which it has evolved. New combinations are a key concept in the new thinking. There are menus far and wide that roll together the flavors of Latin America, New America, Italy, Spain and France. Do these menus end in the odiferous bus tub of bad ideas? Or are they making people sit up and take notice? Perhaps these combinations challenge the old logic.

*Discipline*

Chef Peter Martin offers, "The best chefs I worked under were very militaristic-you did it their way or you got out, and you didn't question the chef. You could ask him questions, but you never questioned him, his authority, or the way he did things." He goes on, "I think there is a lot to be said for that kind of learning, especially for young cooks that don't know a whole lot. He definitely did not treat us as equals, but he didn't treat us poorly either. We were his students and he was our teacher, and while he was a great mentor we were always reminded of what our roles and what his role was in the relationship and it was not equal, nor would we ever be so bold as to consider ourselves as his equal." Of the new school, " Part of the problem with many new, young cooks (not all but a lot of them) is that they forget that the teacher-student dynamic is intrinsically unequal. They feel entitled, and think that their opinion deserves to be heard and considered. Sorry, but it doesn't."

*Menu*

The mother sauces, classical technique. Ballantines. Avocado cream quenelles. Pates are on the rebound or they never have really left. As with clothing, what was once old is new again. Food fashion ebbs and flows. Comfort food of the 1950s was born again in the 1980s and 1990s. Small plates in the style of the California Spa cuisine movement of the 1990s is around in the form tapas and limited menus popping up all over. Regional menus that defined the first decade of 2000 is evolving into the fusiony feel of the early 90s. What diner doesn't have spaghetti, quesadillas and hummus? Perhaps the actual food we do is less suspect than the school of cooking that gets it to the table.

*Local as an ingredient*

There is no denying the locavore movement-deny the overused term, but not the movement. But it isn't new. So the new school of cooking imploring the use of what is local is not so new; actually, local eating is as old as eating itself. Here, the two schools do not diverge. Selection of ingredients is usually grounded in quality. The use of local products has bled itself into the pioneers desire to own food trucks, taking the local movement to the people. Owning a big, glittery restaurant does not seem to be the crowning achievement, Rather, hordes lined up outside of the big, glittery food truck is the new benchmark. With the capacity to focus on a few menu items, the use of local products is rooted in portability with the roving eateries. The Great Food Truck Race and John Favreau's Chef are small and large screen productions that feature the virtue of trucks bristling with local goodness.

*Chefs with a mission*

Part of the new regime includes a nod to environmental consciousness. Non-GMO sunflower oil in the fryer. Bamboo disposables. Plenty of community-based events. Rallying for legalized foie gras. Petitioning for the decriminalization of marijuana. Conventional kitchen wisdom is not kept in a proverbial bubble. Cooks have a lot to say and the new schoolers are saying it. Grounded in substance or just a ride on the hot mess express has yet to be determined. Either way, the neoteric group has a lot to say. The classical constituency rallied at American Culinary Federation meetings, behind closed doors and in the company of the trade. The message was grounded in the kitchen playground and rarely crossed over into the new media.

*Digital Education*

Love it or hate it, there are offspring of FoodTV, a generation of cooks that are digital natives. Ideas can come from Instagram. Menus can be shared in a blink. Techniques can be learned on YouTube. What once meant a class or showing up before clock-in time can now be had by way of a Galaxy 5 or iPhone. Learning is constant, but now the classroom is always in motion. When asked his thoughts about the old guard versus the new school, Restaurant: Impossible's Robert Irvine, colorful, loud and indigent to modern day whining egos in the kitchen says "I am old schooler. It is about balancing nutrition, taste and time. Everybody is in a rush." Adding, "nobody has the time… it is all about getting it done quickly."And some of the schools are to be blamed for the overly-inflated, grandiose, pastel-painted pictures of what kitchen reality faces the modernistic minions. Get it quickly, seems to be the message.

One of the pleasures of being part of kitchen turmoil is the constant state of change, the jovial clashes of ideas and the dripping of colorful ideas from many creative spigots. It isn't always about doing things better, but about different. Aha! The new school state of mind. And keeping those changes in a place that makes sense, well, that is the old school. Maybe?


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Wow! Great article Jim!

Change is good. 

Merry Christmas


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

> Using the ideas everybody offered above and talking with others, I put together an article for Chef Life Magazine. Here is the article (reprinted from http://cheflifemagazine.squarespace.com/jim-berman-blog/):
> 
> ....They will be old schoolers. Undeniably, they will. Classically trained or not, tomorrow their food will be yesterday's points of reference....


Exactly!


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## rocknrollcat (Jan 13, 2015)

Hi there. I'm a first time poster.

I'm 29 years old, I quit school at 14 to start a cookery apprenticeship. I've never looked back, though I occasionally wish the hours/work were a little easier. 
Over the years I've evolved to meet the demands of such a stressful lifestyle, I no longer worry about work/life balance, I value success and early retirement much higher than day to day happiness. That, in itself, has made me happy.
As far as skills go, I always had the mindset that I was faster than the old boys I worked with, I could run rings around them. Experience has now taught me to understand that speed is one small facet of productivity. The older I get, the more i hone, learn, improve.
2 years ago I took the opportunity to rent the kitchen in a yacht club here in Brisbane. I started out with two staff and an average weekly turnover of approximately $2000. As of this year, and with a staff of 12, we're running average weeks of 14 - $18000. Profit margins increase, little by little, month to month. I've watched a lot of young chefs come through with a chip on their shoulders, my advice is always the same. Keep your mouth shut, leave your ego at home and watch EVERYTHING! You can't get through to most.
I suppose, in conclusion, that I never understood what it meant to actually run a kitchen as a young chef, I'm very much still learning now. I'm a vote for 'old school'.
Thanks.


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