# Traditional Japanese knives and the fairly new purchaser (LONG)



## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

In a recent thread, Ross asked about what knives to register for. Buzz and I started to derail the conversation by talking about traditional-style Japanese knives, which really weren't at issue (the derailing was primarily my fault -- sorry Ross!). So, following the suggestion from Boar-d-laze, I thought I'd open a new thread.

What I said is that I thought Ross (and, to broaden things, people like him - at least, as he presents himself) should probably avoid traditional-style single-beveled Japanese knives. Buzz disagrees, citing the high-performance characteristics of _gyuto_.

(Incidentally, I should note that I recently wrote a longish three-part article for FoodProof about selecting and maintaining knives. There again, my audience and focus is the relative beginner, someone who really does not know much about knives and would like a practical, realistic primer. That's partly a plug, of course, but for you folks it's more a way of emphasizing where I'm coming from on this issue.)

Here are my basic points, on which I'd value your opinions and knowledge:

1. Single-beveled knives are very difficult to use according to traditional French techniques. But the average American home cook will get 99% of good information about how to cut from French traditionalists, like Jacques Pépin, Julia Child, and so forth. Thorough, precise information on using single-beveled Japanese knives is very difficult to find in English, with the limited exception of some things about cutting sashimi. Thus I think buying knives like this is problematic, in that it's going to be difficult to learn to use them effectively.

2. The single-beveled knives I am familiar with here in Japan are all carbon steel. This makes care more difficult for the home cook, who is unlikely already to have developed good habits of wiping, scouring, rest-drying, and the like. It also makes sharpening more of an issue, in the sense that such knives will need some sharpening quite regularly.

3. Sharpening a single-beveled knife is in my opinion considerably easier than sharpening a double-edge, because you don't have to worry about your angles much (unless you want to get into micro-beveling or something, in which case you're not the sort of user/purchaser we're talking about here). This assumes, of course, that you are buying these knives from a shop that will already have put an appropriate bevel on to begin with, and I see a number of things in other forums suggesting that this isn't always the case. But in any event, let's remember how few home cooks actually sharpen their knives at all, or have a clue how to go about it. Some run a knife on a steel every once in a while and figure they are sharpening. If something gets so blunt it's unusable, the normal plan is either (a) throw it away, or (b) send it to a hardware store. Even assuming that nobody in his right mind is going to throw away a hand-forged knife just because it's a bit blunt, I worry about option (b): I have been very unimpressed by hardware-store sharpening that I have encountered, and I am quite sure that such sharpeners are unlikely to know much about single-edged knives. I hate to think what would happen if someone tried to resharpen a knife like this by putting on the regulation 15-20 degrees on both sides! So unless you are going to learn to sharpen, and sharpen well, at home, which is a considerable investment of time and money (for stones and such), I worry that such knives won't be satisfactory. If you are going to learn to do basic sharpening, terrific! But bear in mind again that the vast majority of what you're going to be told is going to refer to double-edged knives, and will not apply at all to single-edged knives.

4. Someone who is asking a very broad-ranging question about "what's a good knife?" is, I think, not someone who already knows a whole lot about the subject. As a result, I think such a person should buy an excellent, very standard sort of knife, something that will reward good habits and not punish bad ones excessively, which is also easy and forgiving to care for. To my mind, we're talking about a standard French chef's knife, or perhaps a santoku, costing on the order of $125, from a respectable, reliable knifemaker like Wusthof, Sabatier, and so on.

5. My ideal for such a person would be this: He or she acquires a small number of good-quality knives and begins using them for absolutely everything. Knife skills, sharpening and care, basic maintenance, all these things build over time, because the cook is using these knives consistently rather than trying a million things randomly, and with any luck the cook is also doing a little reading, viewing, studying, or whatever on how to cut (which again will make single-beveled knives tricky...). If in 3-5 years this person has come to the conclusion that a different knife is desirable, for whatever reason, he or she will have extremely clear reasons for this preference. Thus he or she will be able either to ask very precise questions, or to go straight to a good knife shop and do some intelligent selection, and will get just what he or she actually wants. That might be a thin-bladed exotic Japanese steel knife, it might be a hand-forged single-edged knife, it might be a larger or smaller or differently-weighted French chef's knife, who knows? Regardless, that person will now be buying what is currently best for his or her hand and arm and skill.

I suppose I worry too much. But with all the excitement about Japanese steel these days, I fear that a lot of folks are dropping big chunks of change on things they cannot or will not use effectively. My local knife shop is Aritsugu, in Kyoto, and I know for a fact that the cheap end of their _deba _range costs about $140, and rises sharply from there. _Yanagiba_ are somewhat more, rising to unbelievably more (about $1500 for a non-special-order job). _Usuba_ are a fraction cheaper, but not by much. Plus shipping to the US, and customs, you're talking about a lot of money, and Aritsugu is not one of the shops that is jacking its overseas prices, as a number of places have been doing.

In passing, I should note that Ross is left-handed, which often but not always makes Japanese single-beveled knives more expensive, but since that is specific to Ross and an increasingly uncommon practice anyway, I just put it to one side.

Ultimately, though, I am certainly not saying that nobody should buy knives like this. Heck, I just bought a beautiful Aritsugu _deba_, and I apologize to no one for doing so. But I knew exactly what I was getting, I have a number of good Japanese texts and videos and such about how to use a _deba _effectively, and I have a neighbor who's the chef at a well-reviewed _kaiseki _place and he's going to be giving me some lessons. For me, then, yes, it makes sense. Maybe for you too. But not, I think, if you are someone who's asking what to register for.

So I've said my piece. What do you think?

Chris
(donning flak jacket and diving for cover...)


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

No flak jackets required Chris. I left mine in Viet Nam.

In my opinion you are far too concerned about cooks knife choices. 99.99% don't pay any more attention to their knives than they do their microwaves. They truly don't care as long as they can saw their way through a meatloaf.

I envy your living in Japan. If only I had had a love of kitchen cutlery when I spent 11 months at Iwakuni MCAS in 1970-71. I would have brought back dozens. At the time the yen was fixed at 360 to the $. Sigh.

For those of us that *do* love knives, the learning process is fun and entertaining. The actual use of our new knives is just plain big smile enjoyable. I think you are over "worried" about the masses using single beveled traditional knives. I look at it as owning two manual transmissioned autos with vastly different feeling clutches. Every time you switch from one to the other there is a short, but fairly easy, learning curve. I don't even think about it but being a lefty my experience is somewhat limited. The only two I own are a Usuaba and Mukimono. I'm too cheap to pay the 50% premium for larger knives.

By the way, speaking of the learning process, I read your three part thingy. You make the statement re: Japanese knives, "That is, in profile they look like chisels: one side (the back) is totally flat, and only the other side (the front) slants down to make an edge." The fact is, the backs are not flat, rather hollow ground on the wheel. Any that might be flat are likely stamped. Put a straight edge on the back of one of yours and take a look. The very first thing one must do to sharpen a wa is to "flatten" the back, that is, reduce the entire raised perimeter to the same level. Then go to work on the bevel.

Sorry about hijacking your thread in the very first reply, but as I said above, I truly believe that the vast majority of cooks are oblivious and that is my point. Believe me, I've tried to enlighten a couple dozen relatives and friends and only one actually appreciates the differences in quality. The rest humor me but I know they love me anyway. 

Buzz


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Buzz, you haven't hijacked the thread. This is interesting, and among the things that I was getting at.

(In passing, the yen is currently 100 to the dollar, which is horrible; you can usually count on it being roughly 115 or so. Oy.)
Quite right. I intended sort of to simplify matters by eliminating the non-essential. Do you think I've too grossly over-simplified?
I get where you're coming from, and my natural inclination is to be very sympathetic. But I do think there is a considerable audience growing out there, perhaps especially on-line, of people who would like to know more about cooking and aren't sure how to go about it. Many of them will run screaming when they discover that, yes, taking care of a decent knife is indeed work, however much we assure them that this work is fun. But some of them will perhaps buy (or dig out) a decent knife and try to learn something. And maybe they will make the switch you and I have made, from not caring to caring.

I guess where I disagree with you is only in what I might call the _location_ of our cynicism. You think almost nobody cares beyond being able to slice a meatloaf -- nice way of putting it, by the way! I think there are a lot of folks who really, really believe that if they just spend enough money on a great knife, they will have a magic tool that will solve all their problems. And what I think a lot of them hear lately is "buy Japanese: it's the best thing. Didn't you see _Kill Bill_? Hattori Hanzo steel, man, yeah!" But a Japanese knife isn't going to make them any better chefs than a German or French one. What they need is better skills and habits. My opinion is that these are much more easily and efficiently gained with a good-quality French-style chef's knife, not a single-bevel Japanese knife.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Now it is true that a single bevel knife is easier to hone or sharpen than a double bevel knife.

Yet most beginners I've met and talked to don't actually comprehend WHAT a bevel is, how to sharpen properly, why there is a huge range of grits, and most importantly--HOW to maintain the prescribed bevel. To suggest to an absolute novice putting a bevel on an edge freehand is kind of far fetched.

As the only "cook" in my family and around the neighborhood I've been subjected to advice requests and asked to sharpen knives so the host/ess can cut the roast beef is pretty common for me.

As with most things in life, the big subjects are money and time. IF the person asking me has unlimited sources of both, I suggest buying whatever catches their fancy. To the average single parent/dual income houshold that has limited time in the kitchen I tend to suggest a decent European or mainstream Japanese doubel beveled knife and show themn how to maintain the edge with a steel. When the knife gets dull I give them the number of a profesional knife (and woodworking tools) sharpening service. To tell them to buy a series of 3 or 4 stones PLUS the learning curve is too much time and money for most of them. That being said I have convinced a friend (with grown up children..) to get a some $200 knives and have shown him how to maintain bevels. He was appreciateive of the advice and time, alot of others aren't. 
To the young working cook, I always tell them to leave their fancy knives at home and use a cheap, albeit serviceable knife at work.


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks for not taking anything I said the wrong way. Sometimes I get carried away and don't take the time to include the effect of my words on the reader/listener. However, I did take the time to ponder the flat backside issue and it certainly crossed my mind that you were trying not to create confusion. I decided that perhaps the hollow ground backs had evaded you because you have been most specific and complete in your posts. Anyway, welcome aboard. 

WELL!!!!!. Here is where we truly disagree. What about CUTCO? :roll:LOL Ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

True enough. A quality double bevel is the place to start. A first automobile is seldom a Ferrari. I treasure my ancient Thiers-Issard Sabatiers. With a polished 15 degree per side blade they perform very well indeed. I don't use them often because of my addiction to Japanese steel, but when I do pull them out it is always with pleasure. In fact, just yesterday I used a 6" T-I Chef's knife to trim and cube (read chunk) conch for chowder. I keep that one at 10 degrees and cannot adequately express how perfect it is for the job.

There is a Japanese wave acomin'. Few of the new recruits will every experience traditional knives but will be giddy with their new block sets of double beveled Globals, Shuns, et al. To Shun's credit, their electric sharpener is set at 16 degrees per side, the same as their blades. If these new owners run their new show off beauties through a Chef's Choice 120.... who needs a 22 degree microbevel? At least the thinner design will still make it a better cutting tool than the old block now sitting in the garage.


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