# Apprentice Chef?



## riderc90 (Nov 14, 2013)

So I have heard of this type of thing but have never seen a job posting or anything seeking an apprentice chef. What exactly is it? How do you find such positions? Is it a productive alternative to culinary school?


----------



## alacarte (Dec 2, 2013)

Are u kidding u dont know what an apprentice is?? Maybe were your from its different, in Australia to becoma a qualified proffessiona chef you must undertake an apprenticeship, this is paid on the job learning, so it used to take 4 years to complete, now it has been reduced to 3 years, so you find a busy restuarant or resort to hire you and you work ad an apprentice directly under the head chef and sous chef, and the other qualifoed chefs, you start at the bottom of the kitchen hierachy, often for the first year you do medial tasks like washing lettuce, cutting vegetables, then progress to basic cooking like mash potato, stocks, sauces etc.. then second year you get put incharge of a section were you learn to assemble dishes to order, ordering, costing etc.. (usually start with cold larder and deserts, then progressing to harder sections like pans and grill) during your three years work in the kitchen you also attend a culinary school which is called TAFE were they teach you further skills that you may not have the opportunity to learn in the kitchen. Then after you complete all your modules and the.chef is happy to sign you off, you are now a qualified chef. Wages for apprentices are: 1st year is 10.50 / hour, 2nd year is 12.90? And 3rd year is about 14-15 dollars per hour.. a chef strait after finishing thier apprenticeship is usually hired as a commis chef and the wage is about $21 an hour, then after more experiance you would be hired as a demi chef, chef de partie, sous chef, chef de guisine then the head chef or (executive in hotels). The low wage is subsidised by the government depending on your age and living arangements they can pay you up.to an extra 100-150 dollars a week, not from your employers pocket but the.governments, and the tafe (certificate III in commercial cookery) is paid.for by the government and also your employer. To.do it privately is around $12000 a year i believe.. during the course of your apprenticeship.the government also gives you a tax free "tools of.the.trade allowance" totalling $5500 to buy.knives and uniforms.etc.. this is divided in sums of about 1200 periodically throu the.course of your training.


----------



## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

The apprenticeship model does not exist here in the USA---in Canada and the UK, I believe ,  they have a certification that requires schooling and an apprenticeship--

Great way to train a worker in a real world environment---I do not believe that system exists here--to bad.


----------



## william kuch (Nov 9, 2013)

The US has ACF apprenticeship programs which are probably pretty comparable. Although there is not an ACF group in every state, I would recommend it to anyone considering culinary school


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

ACF credentials are nice, but are they Gov't recognised?


----------



## riderc90 (Nov 14, 2013)

Alacarte - my god how I wish we had something of that sort here. There are apprenticeship programs. But they certainly aren't as extensive as that not do they receive the funding from the government. I truly wish that we did because that is exactly what I want. :,(


----------



## alacarte (Dec 2, 2013)

yes its quite a good system they have in place, not just for culinary, but a broad range of trades, it works well for a youth strait out of high school 17, still living at home with the parents or move into a share house with mates, u can easily afford to live on $400/week and you will be a fully trade qualified chef when your 20. they also offer a "school based apprenticeship" which in year 11 or 12 if the kid dont have much interest in school the government sets up a prgram were you only need to attend school 3 days a week and you also work part time and over 12 months, that is counted as the first year done, so they can still qualify and get their high school certificate and also go strait into the second year as an apprentice. not bad head start to life.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

We don't have apprenticeships here in the USA because the culinary field is not recognized as a legitimate profession here.

(insert any adjective you wish here...........)


----------



## alacarte (Dec 2, 2013)

It doesnt make sense tho, like eating food goes hand in hand with surviving.... lol


----------



## william kuch (Nov 9, 2013)

Not sure how you can say its not recognized as a true profession. Yet we somehow seem to have all these cooking shows and celebrity chefs? Your comment sounds quite ignorant sir


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

I think what you are describing as an apprenticeship like above, is pretty unique for YOUR country.

I live in netherlands and through we do have apprenticeships, we still have to pay for school ourselves mostly (esp when over 30 years old) and definitely don't receive what your government gives you.

LUCKY you.

school over here costs 600/ 700 euros a year for younger people and 3000 euros a year for adults (over 20).

getting degrees for youngsters takes two years to complete, for adults one year.

there are apprenticeships as that school WANTS YOU to have a workplace that qualifies to particular registrations, and they work together to get your assignments done/ signed/ etc whatever is needed.

I'd be interested though what it is like in other countries regarding rules/ costs etc.

but a chef/ cook is most definitely  recognized as a legitimate profession over here!!


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

The UK has an apprenticeship scheme, I think the Aussie System is based upon it. I think NZ has a similar scheme. It is not just for culinary skills though... Plumbing, brick laying. Carpentry, motor mechanics, various engineering skills, oh and hairdressing, are all offered as apprenticeships.

Students are employed by a business and either attend FE college as day release students or block release, in Australia the classes are usually held at TAFEs.

The apprenticeship scheme in the UK has had a small resurgence after being dickered around with for a couple of decades. After all, something that has been part of our training
systems since medieval times must be doing something right!

Here's a link to a govt site https://www.gov.uk/apprenticeships-guide


----------



## william kuch (Nov 9, 2013)

In my opinion its a skilled trade just like any other. To say its not recognized as such in the USA is like saying a mechanic is not recognized as a true profession. Still waiting for the other guy to respond so he can elaborate on his ignorant comment.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Fair question:

What Gov't or state-wide recognised standards/and/or qualifications are there for the profession of "Cook"?


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Fair question:
> 
> What Gov't or state-wide recognised standards/and/or qualifications are there for the profession of "Cook"?


Second "fair question":

What standard body of common knowledge encompasses all cooks?


----------



## wlong (Aug 2, 2011)

Where there is state or government assistance, guess who pays for it.


----------



## william kuch (Nov 9, 2013)

Ahh see now I get where you're coming from. Technically there really aren't any when you put it that way. No type of real tests or certifications you "must" have or pass. Maybe this is why you never truly get paid what you deserve. I do apologize, as I am quite prideful when it comes to what I do for a living. Sorry if I seemed like a dick


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

An apprentice is just like a job except most likely only 2 days a week plus 1 day a week training at your local college, you will get payed (here in the UK £96 - £99 week), if you live near a college that also gives students placements during their courses then most likely they will put apprenticeships on the website too plus you can ask the college if they can get you into one, here in the UK we can ether do an Apprenticeship or an NVQ from Level 1, NVQ is still an apprenticeship but instead it's a better way to let employers know your a reliable worker. The college here also sends someone out from the college (most likely a placement officer), and they check how your doing there once a week and you also get a booklet with things you go through related to it, plus a reference from the employer, so try and find out if the college near you does that.


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Chefross said:


> We don't have apprenticeships here in the USA because the culinary field is not recognized as a legitimate profession here.
> 
> (insert any adjective you wish here...........)


That one I don't agree with. It is a recognized profession and if it wasn't there would not be literally thousands of culinary schools across the country and everyone changing careers to become a chef.

The apprenticeship programs in Europe always made more sense to me because it was a more through process of learning the trade. The closest thing I have seen in the US is a vocational tech school that I visited in Delaware. @Jim Berman can comment on it. Basically the students start the program as freshman and are hand selected. The spend 3 years I believe learning every aspect of the kitchen and from what I saw they got so much more than what you get in the "quick fix I want to be a chef" 2 year culinary programs that are so prevalent at a lot of schools. If you want to gain a similar experience you can do what I did which was an "estage" in Europe.

@alacarte That sounds like an extremely well thought out program and there really is nothing quite like that here in the US. Do you know if the apprentice program is similar in Europe? I know they have apprenticeship programs but I don't know if they are as detailed about wages, trade tool allowances etc etc. That really is an amazing program. So where are you working now and what stage of your apprenticeship are you in?


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Nicko said:


> That one I don't agree with. It is a recognized profession and if it wasn't there would not be literally thousands of culinary schools across the country and everyone changing careers to become a chef.
> 
> The apprenticeship programs in Europe always made more sense to me because it was a more through process of learning the trade. The closest thing I have seen in the US is a vocational tech school that I visited in Delaware. @Jim Berman can comment on it. Basically the students start the program as freshman and are hand selected. The spend 3 years I believe learning every aspect of the kitchen and from what I saw they got so much more than what you get in the "quick fix I want to be a chef" 2 year culinary programs that are so prevalent at a lot of schools.
> 
> If you want to gain a similar experience you can do what I did which was an "estage" in Europe.


umm...

I have to disagree Nicko.

Electricians are a recognized trade... but you don't see hundreds of Electrician schools. You don't see them precisely because you need to 'apprentice' in order to get a license. You can take the courses but you can't open a business until you have completed the 'apprenticeship'. (varies by state and country)

There are thousands of 'culinary' schools precisely because of the fact that it isn't a recognized profession ... there is no common body of knowledge, there is no supervised and recorded apprenticeship. There is no 'bar' so as to speak when talking about lawyers.

Anyone can open a restaurant or call themselves a chef and nobody can prevent them. Anyone who advertises their services as an Electrician will be toast if they don't have the schooling and licenses (ie. completed apprenticeship)


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Right @MichaelGA you make a good point about anyone can open a restaurant. But to say that Bobby Flay, Morimoto, the executive chefs at the big hotels are not in a recognized profession I just can't agree. Not just anyone can walk in and do that job they have to have high degree of skill just like an electrician. Do you understand what I mean?


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Yes I do... I think, but I believe where we cross terms is in that a profession doesn't mean with / without skill and or talent.

Skill is needed by many professions but talent is not. To be a professional electrician you need to follow the same set of rules as everyone else in your field. You have to have skill but you might never use any 'talent' other than devising a new way to run wires or 'phish' lines etc.

When I say that cooks / chefs what ever, are not a recognized profession: I don't deride or lesson them, it's just a matter of fact that we don't play by the same rules as other professionals must do.

I recently was summoned to do jury duty sometime in April.

A list of professionals was 'excluded' from attending, ie they couldn't attend. It was pretty short. The one thing they all had in common - none could get to where they were occupational wise unless they all met a certain standard and then were held to that standard.

I guess the whole mix-up comes down to adjectives vs. nouns.

You can be a professional cook / chef - but a cook / chef is not a recognized profession.

Conversely you can be a lawyer and not be professional. (usually they get caught though)

PS - at least in Canada this is changing though: ie. the New Red Seal in BC & AB vs the rest of Canada [ @foodpump help me out!]


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

These days most people get training through placements during their courses, in America you can do internships, is there any internships there that could get you into training as a chef?.


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Ha, my wife who is an attorney would disagree. You can't be a lawyer and not be a professional. You either have the law degree which defines you have a fiduciary duty or you don't. I see your point in what your saying that at least in the United States there is no formally recognized program by the state/s for becoming a chef. I suppose the closest thing we have in the US is the ACF but again not everyone follows the acf.


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Nicko said:


> Ha, my wife who is an attorney would disagree. You can't be a lawyer and not be a professional. You either have the law degree which defines you have a fiduciary duty or you don't. I see your point in what your saying that at least in the United States there is no formally recognized program by the state/s for becoming a chef. I suppose the closest thing we have in the US is the ACF but again not everyone follows the acf.


I'm glad that we see things this way.

Personally I hope that ChefTalk is one of the sites that transforms being a chef/cook into a recognized profession.

I think that the world would be better that way.

....

I didn't say they would remain lawyers for long... just that it can happen. Just like 'Chefs' can also not know how to cook.

Defining a duty is much different from proving it. Basically it is assumed until proven wrong.

....

Best thing for the 'professionalization of cooking / cheffing' ... wold be to have a federal recognition of the ACF.

Lots of people would loose jobs, but others would benefit from higher pay and many more incentives.

Gone would be the 'illegal' line cook at the same time as well as the "I have a degree" line cook.

Pandora's Box as they say!


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The whole thing is this:

What professional body issues out certificates and or qualifications for cooks?????

The Grace L. Fergasson school of home cooking?

Any of the other private schools?

With an electrician or plumber, they can't do licensed work or get pro insurance coverage if they don't have some kind of qualification.  Municipal gov'ts won't recognize their work or issue them permits if they don't have qualifications.  Lawyers can't go before the courts if they haven't passed their bar.  CGA's (certified general accountants) won't get their work recognized or accepted if they don't have their qualifications.  And Healthcare?  I dunno I am sooooo lucky to only have been on the visitor's side of the bed for 49 years,  but I imagine those guys and gals have some kind of qualifications.

What do you need to open a restaurant?

-A poofy hat and money.  Nothing else

You have the power to make a memorable meal, a so-so one, or to poison, maim or even kill someone.  That's not to be taken lightly.

But all you need to open a restaurant is a poofy hat and money.

Does anyone see a link between the absolute lousy wages in the hospitality industry and lack of qualifications in the hospitality industry?


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

It's like the biggest un-union racket ever.


----------



## alacarte (Dec 2, 2013)

Nicko said:


> @alacarte
> That sounds like an extremely well thought out program and there really is nothing quite like that here in the US. Do you know if the apprentice program is similar in Europe? I know they have apprenticeship programs but I don't know if they are as detailed about wages, trade tool allowances etc etc. That really is an amazing program. So where are you working now and what stage of your apprenticeship are you in?


i am not sure about what Europe offers as a form of training there, but atm im a mature age apprentice being 25, tho i have been working in the industry since i was 14 from washing dishes, to being a cook, prep chef, cooking for service etc.. atm i am only a first year apprentice! as i never formally had any recognised training, so its something i always have had a passion for and wanted to do, but we also have a system called RPL. recognised prior learning, so when i can meet with the trainers soon my head chef an i, can go through the blocks of schooling and any skills that you have learnt in prior work is recognised and you dont need to sit through them again. so hopefully that will happen soon and i can progress strait to a 2nd year student! and i currently work at the sheraton resort in Noosa heads qld. its one of Peter Kuruvitas restuarants (celebrity chef here in aus has cooking shows etc..) but its very busy and fast paced and we have a wonderful fresh a la carte menu and also in house banquets nad functions and other numerous things we cater for,

http://www.peterkuruvita.com/restaurants/noosa-beach-house/

http://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Resta...ch_House-Noosa_Sunshine_Coast_Queensland.html


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

alacarte said:


> i am not sure about what Europe offers as a form of training there, but atm im a mature age apprentice being 25, tho i have been working in the industry since i was 14 from washing dishes, to being a cook, prep chef, cooking for service etc.. atm i am only a first year apprentice! as i never formally had any recognised training, so its something i always have had a passion for and wanted to do, but we also have a system called RPL. recognised prior learning, so when i can meet with the trainers soon my head chef an i, can go through the blocks of schooling and any skills that you have learnt in prior work is recognised and you dont need to sit through them again. so hopefully that will happen soon and i can progress strait to a 2nd year student! and i currently work at the sheraton resort in Noosa heads qld. its one of Peter Kuruvitas restuarants (celebrity chef here in aus has cooking shows etc..) but its very busy and fast paced and we have a wonderful fresh a la carte menu and also in house banquets nad functions and other numerous things we cater for,
> 
> http://www.peterkuruvita.com/restaurants/noosa-beach-house/
> 
> http://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Resta...ch_House-Noosa_Sunshine_Coast_Queensland.html


Most colleges here in the UK just offer courses and work placements (the placements you do for free 1 day a week for up to 8 weeks, the college near me is more like 7 weeks as you go there for the first week just to fill in some paper work and to have a look at the place, all in good baby steps), At the moment rarely any colleges offer apprenticeships but the college near me is a fairly new state of the art college and offers apprenticeships, small though but there is several buildings across the several small towns around Bolton, England (or villages if that's what they call them it's confusing lol).

About 6 in total and you go to each one to study different subjects. It's limited places in each one because they only have like two or three small facilities/classrooms for each subject so the max student for each class is about 13 - 15. I lived up in Scotland for a while and the college there has been around for 12 years no i think but no apprenticeships just placements, so your probably gonna have to look for apprenticeships on your own in most towns. The government pay for the apprenticeships while you get payed so it's completely free to do apart from traveling there.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Nicko said:


> Right @MichaelGA you make a good point about anyone can open a restaurant. But to say that Bobby Flay, Morimoto, the executive chefs at the big hotels are not in a recognized profession I just can't agree. Not just anyone can walk in and do that job they have to have high degree of skill just like an electrician. Do you understand what I mean?


Just remember that Bobby, Emeril, Ervin, Morimoto, and their elk were "AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THER RIGHT TIME".

They are great cooks who were discovered, same as an actor would have been.

They are recognized as Celebrity Chefs first and then their history usually comes after.

Here's one....Remember Anthony Bourdain?

Ever read his book Kitchen Confidential?

The first few chapters don't paint a very glamorous picture of his early years.

Now look at him....... More books, television appearances, and his own programs.....

Up until these guys were "discovered" most of us had never heard of them.......


----------



## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

This is age-old debate/conversation will continue. There is, in fact, an American Culinary Federation (ACF) chef's apprenticeship program that designates, following an exam, a certification. That certification is only had by membership in the ACF which, for many, belonging to that group is debatable in itself. Not sure if this sheds any light or not.

I am not so sure that it matters, in the end. Be a cook. Be a chef. Be a hack. It doesn't matter. If you are good at what you do and work hard, you will have a sense of pride and accomplishment. The same can be said for a doctor, plumber and welder. If you need your ego stroked, then you need your ego stroked. Don't make it more than what it is. We buy stuff. We fix it up. We sell it.


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeh so overall just go for it and see what happens, me i think my limit will be a cook i mean as much as a chef seems cool i shy away from top roles because i'm not really a competitive type, i am with gaming but other than that in the real world the competition turns vicious all too often and i've been through a lot already so now i just push myself as far away from highly vicious and competitive people as much as i possibly can, i can't entirely but i just don't like that. I could be a singer too as i'm a good singer but again i want the lime light but i don't want it because i also want a life outside of work.

Whenever i'm near a microphone i yearn to be the leading lady but then i step back and i don't want that to be everything. So just get out there and try, i'm about to go for an aprenticeship and i have nerves and doubts about it too because of what some lecturers say at the local college, they are not very supportive at all and i'm worried after putting blood and sweat into that college for a year and a half they will do something to ruin it for me, but i'm trying anyway.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Chefross said:


> Just remember that Bobby, Emeril, Ervin, Morimoto, and their elk were "AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THER RIGHT TIME".
> 
> They are great cooks who were discovered, same as an actor would have been.
> 
> ...


Yup, they're not recognized.

Fred and Wilma go and eat at their establishment and they tip the waiter and tell o the waiter to tell o'l Bobby or Emeril or whatever that their food was great, but the waiter gets 20% of the entire bill as a tip, at least he's recognized, the Chef or cooks can go suck on hind's teats though.

I hate the word "discovered" when it pertains to restaurants and Chefs. Every week I get somebody in place wanting to know when I opened up, when did I move into the neighborhood?. I tell them, 2007. They tell me I'm not serious. What should I say? _ "Excuse m'am is that a question or statement? It sure sounded like a statement" ? _Bloggers or busybodys "discovering me" and wanting to take credit for my business, wanting a cut of my earnings, hitting me up for every imaginable charity?

No, I was never "discovered". Not saying I'm famous or have wonderfull food. But I came from the same place almost everyone else come from--their mother's beds. Then again, I don't know about pro- blogger's origins....


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Chefross said:


> Just remember that Bobby, Emeril, Ervin, Morimoto, and their elk were "AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THER RIGHT TIME".
> 
> They are great cooks who were discovered, same as an actor would have been.
> 
> ...


Hey Chefross, I think many would say the same as you but for myself I don't believe they were at the right place at the right time. I think they were incredibly talented chefs that worked hard. Charlie Trotter was not at the right place at the right time, neither was Freddy Giradet they were great chefs who worked hard and were recognized for it (even though it is not a recognized professions). I think when I consider someone well know who I would say was "at the right place at the right time" I would say someone like Rachel Ray. I like her show I think she helps a lot of people but is she the most talented chef? No (but neither am I for that matter).

Regarding Bourdain, I do remember his book (he even did a live chat with the ChefTalk community in 2000). The first few chapters are not glamorous but you know what? I did not have any of the experiences he had and I was in the business almost as long as him. Bourdain's story was one story by a person who likes to focus on the darker side of life (just look at his shows). Lastly, I was an aspiring chef long before Bourdain's book and I knew who Charlie Trotter was and I knew who Freddy Giradet was.

What I think this discussion has come to is that there is know formal training recognized in the US like an electrician, plumber etc etc. I guess without really know much about the ACF (American Culinary Federation) I thought that was our formalized training but not all chefs agree that it is necessary. Heck, 90% of the chefs I worked with or for did not go through the ACF programs at all. I guess the question is what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Nicko said:


> ...
> 
> I guess the question is what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?


Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession.

Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience.

Honestly with the huge diversity and creative adaptation possible I don't think it will ever happen.

Check out the Red Seal exam in BC and Alberta. (mind you these are not 'requirements' they are voluntary much like the ACF)


----------



## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>what would it take for chefs to become a recognized profession?

>>there is know formal training recognized in the US like an electrician, plumber etc etc.

so, other than the current political football of Joe Six Pack The Plumber....

name me one plumber or one electrician of national fame / renown.

Good food is good food. 

Extraordinary food is different – that comes out of kitchens which spare no trouble or expense for even the least detectible nuance of a / some flavor - according to them.   and regrets to say – a lot of people can’t even “detect” - but that is not an issue that can be blamed on the ultimate perfection chef / kitchen.

Like, think on it for a minute…..  if you’re eating a top top end restaurants daily - or just ‘frequently’ – where/when/how does ‘good food’ become ‘extraordinary food?’

This is mostly why a steak at one joint is $20, but in the best places runs $200.

I’ve had really yummy grub from $20 places and $200 places.  Now…. The $20 plate came with fries and green beans, the $200 place served vegetables prepared / named in foreign ways I could only guess at (which has now changed; got a smart phone so I can surf it tableside…..good for me, woe for them)

My impression on how to become famous:  get yourself a little luck, a few good reviews, raise prices to $150/person.  Americans love to think if it costs more it must be more better.  The higher the prices, the more exclusive the perception.

heh, I’ve ‘followed’ a couple ‘big names’ through this procedure.  starting with the "original" Bookbinders (Phila - and yeah big debate about the name and which place, etc & et. al.) Did not work out for the old Bookbinders (they folded) but sure worked for many others.

And I must add, most of those famous dudes have since come to rest on their laurels – or as I think of it… their axxex.

Prices are/remain high, food is abjectly mediocre, and apparently the name behind the brand has no interest anymore.

Read:  “Tourist Trap” – which is why you do not find $200/plate eateries in small towns – people are smart and don’t go getting ripped off again and again.  In a Tourist Destination – every week it’s a fresh batch of unwitting people lined up to eat at “the famous . . . “

don't get me wrong - some high price joints are worth it, some are just there collecting outrageous money based only on the "name"


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah-butt...

Joe-the-plumber charges $65/hr plus a truck fee, plus parts, plus taxes, and no one complains.  They're just happy to get a plumber.

Wonderful food or not, cooks get paid some of the lousiest wages. Heck, even janitors get paid more.  And there is a direct link to lousy wages and no recognized qualifications in the hospitality industry.


----------



## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>no recognized qualifications

yes, but that has zip comma zero relationship to "fees / charges / wages"

the $65/hr the plumber charges is not what the dude with the short tee shirt and butt crack gets.

somebody has to buy / lease the truck, pay insurance/gas/repairs/tags/inspection/maintenance/pay for his 'travel time'/etc el barfo.

plus, roughly 50% of the employee's hourly rate in payroll/social security/medicare/unemployment/etc and el barfo "taxes"

if your menu item is priced at $25, no - the food material raw costs are not $25.

bashing "business" for pricing is very popular; if one has any 'insight' into the costs on the 'other side' one would not wonder why the plumber has to charge $65/hour.  those who wish to bash the business should redirect their bashing anger at 'government' regulations/taxes/requirements.

it's "good" in some respects (requiring health care, etc) but people need to keep in mind, all those costs come back to the dollar per hour rate the business must charge in order to make that $12/hr electrician available on your door step.  if a business does not cover its costs and generate a profit, it goes out of business.

many countries have apprentice programs / 'real life' OTJ training.

theoretically, one should be able to "judge" and "grade" a student in a standard four year college program and pronounce them with "Bachelor" level skills in culinary arts. 

there's a couple of issues, of course..

for engineers, they get a problem description with all the "input numbers" - perhaps cleverly 'disguised' - but all the information to 'solve' the problem must be provided.

the test is whether they know how to develop a 'solution' to the problem.

otoh, to test a cook candidate, there's some options for the "create a dish" test:

(1) using beef, salt, pepper, (long list of potential ingredients....)

(2) combine x grams of beef with y grams of salt and z grams of pepper and  . . .

the engineer candidate that cannot create a proper numeric solution does not get a degree. 

not especially difficult for professors who've given the same exam foe the last 10 years to spot "good" solutions from "bad" solutions.

asking a cook candidate to 'make via imagination' is a good test; but the whole thing falls flat on it's face because unlike math, taste is an individual thing.  2+2=4 is true anywhere.  a cook candidate's taste may clash with the 'grader' tastes - not the candidate fault - taste is exceedingly difficult to quantify

all those people out there making chili with 500 pounds of(hot-hotter-hottest) peppers per ounce of ground beef:  newsflash - I can't eat it and I'd give it a minus zero "grade" - I just don't do 'burn off yer lips' food.

using option (2) there's little potential to judge ability/skill/training/etc & el barfo.

the only question is whether the cook candidate has accurately measured out the quantity of specified ingredients.

yes yes yes.... technique plays a role and will affect the result.  but again, the result is judged by 'taste' - subjective, hard very hard to quantify/standardize.

it's all quite simple:

what grade did DaVinci's teachers assign to his artistic efforts?

history has judged him a dang good artist (among other things) but what did his teachers say?


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *Dillbert*
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Probably encouraged him to be a plumber!

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

MichaelGA said:


> Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession.
> 
> Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience.
> 
> ...


*~~"Adopt a set of standards for various levels of skill and make them mandatory for those in the profession."*

We do have something like that already in the American Culinary Federation but they are not recognized by our government

*~~"Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience."*

You can not do this here in American.... land of the free.

And........Nicko...........I still must tell you that even though Charlie Trotter, or Emeril, or Bobby, worked hard to get where they are, they did not do it alone.

Someone, somewhere, somehow had to eat their food, at one time in order for them to become what they are now.

You don't like the word "discovered" Foodpump.......sorry but it IS what it IS.

These Celebrity Chefs were* realized *by someone who had the ability to offer them the status they enjoy now. It didn't just happen by itself.

When you eat at their restaurants, they may or may not actually be the one cooking your food, so to say that you at ate at Mario Batali's restaurant means nothing.

On the other hand.......I've eaten at the French Laundry in Napa, and met Thomas Keller.

He's in that restaurant watching you on a television monitor while you eat.


----------



## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Chefross said:


> *~~"Ban anyone from cooking in a kitchen that doesn't meet certain minimum standards for education and experience."*
> 
> You can not do this here in American.... land of the free.


Sure you can - you can't practice Law without passing the bar or be a doctor without a license, that is the whole defining point of a profession.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

MichaelGA said:


> Sure you can - you can't practice Law without passing the bar or be a doctor without a license, that is the whole defining point of a profession.


Again........................This flies in the face of what America is all about.

Here in America we are FREE to open any kind of restaurant we want irrespective of what experience, or knowledge we might have.

It is our right.

Now if we want the food Nazis to come around and close this place or that place because it is felt that so and so Chef, really isn't a Chef, we're going to have a problem.

I surely don't want something like that, but all said, I believe the education would solve that problem.

We have discussed theory versus education here and I believe that in order for everybody to have the same set of rules to follow, we have to have employees that are educated in everything from sanitation, hygiene, food preparation, plating etc. This can not happen if people self educate or base everything they've learned on experience alone.

Charlie Trotter never went to culinary school but you can bet that he read and studied and practiced on his own before he ventured out in to the world.

On the other side of things.....just because one went to culinary school and has a degree, it doesn't make them a Chef.

You can't create a professional licensing situation for the culinary world without first putting everybody on the same set of guidelines.

Guidelines that must be used all the time and be the same everywhere. It's just not possible right now.


----------



## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Nicko

   Flay was put into business by two ex mayor Ed Koch politicians who owned real estate. They used to go into a place where he was a cook and liked him. Both of them always dreamed about opening a rest. Rachell Ray sold pots at a major dept store.

  Most chefs have talent and work their way up through the jungle.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Chefross said:


> Again........................This flies in the face of what America is all about.
> 
> Here in America we are FREE to open any kind of restaurant we want irrespective of what experience, or knowledge we might have.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, land of the free....

Look, I have my business in a strata with 7 other businesses. We all started off with 4 cement walls. Guy next door to me is a successful contractor, bought two units for "investment purposes" spent 50 grand per unit getting them up to code ( lights, power, washrooms, floors etc). They sit idle for two years. So he converts one to a coffee shop because his son needs a job. They know nothing about food service. A few months later he puts a pizza oven. Guy's got no grease trap and well over 30 seats with only one washroom. He got away with that because he never got a change of use and the café is still supposed to be a retail unit. For three years he makes no money, he's had it on the market for 3 years and no buyers. In the meantime he puts out sh*tty food and even sh*ttier coffee (Vancouver, like Seattle, is a coffee town, OK) he's dropping prices every month and his quality gets even sh*tier. He plugs up our building's sanitary lines. He can't sell the business, but he finally manages to get someone to take it over. They have no food service experience. Health inspector won't pass them because they don't have a hand sink, City Hall gets involved because of the seating and grease trap issue. They (new tenants) have no idea what they've got themselves into, but they're dead set on a southern style menu with chicken and ribs. If they want to run a ventilation shaft to anywhere it's 70 feet horizontal...

Guy on the other side of me is a real estate agent. Bought a unit for "investment purposes". Found a tenant to renovate the suite to a tune of 60 grand. Nice kid, no foodservice experience, but he did everything by the book. 60 grand in infrastructure/leasehold improvements for the landlord and his business is bubble tea. Max. guest cheque is $3.95. By the end of 6 mths he's running off to Costco to by muffins to up the guest cheque. By 9 mths he's collapsed the business and found someone to sublease. All he while he was lowering prices to attract more business. New tenent takes over, within 2 years she's given up and someone else takes over. And THEY have no experience.....

As all of these businesses are going down, they cut every corner and slice every penny. Sh*tty food and quality. Same thing happens all over the country.

Point I'm trying to make is that there's so much competition in the food service industry, that it is very hard to cover costs, let alone make money.

There are two exception to this point:

-The first is monopolies a.k.a franchises

-The second is operators making something unique, so they don't have to worry about competition.

Buying into a franchise is easy, you just need money and head office does everything else. This is why it's so popular, it's also why we have such cheap food and unskilled labour.

The second option is very difficult. You really have to know what you're doing, you need to know your market, need to know your suppliers, need to know your labour market.

We need qualifications. period.

We need qualifications for restaurant owners, so they don't collapse within 6 mths and pull down all the neighboring busineses with them as they're going down

We need qualifications for cooks so that they can get paid a salary they can live on, and keep our trade supplied with people for the next generation. If we don't, we will only have burger flippers and nuker-pushers.

You might not like qualifications, but you have one in your wallet right now.

-A driver's license

Now that piece of paper might not seem like much. It is no guarantee that you won't cruise through 4-way stops, or drive 50 mph in the passing lane. That piece of paper however guarantees me that you did pass tests _*and that you know better, you have no excuse to plead ignorance. *_

Now, I have visited and worked in "other" countries where I would never get behind the wheel of a car. The kinds of countries where the horn button is regularily substituted for the brake pedal, where the cops drive at night without their headlights on. Maybe the licenses were bought on the black market, maybe bribes, maybe handed down from father to son, like heirloom piece of furniture.

Don't let your freedom of opening up a place with no experience in the food service industry get in the way of my freedom of running my business.....

Dillbert?

It's only 8 am here, and I have to go to work now. Your post has a lot of issues that need to be discussed.

I'll be back...


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

It doesn't matter who did it in what way just they got out there and worked hard, i watch the Shaytards on YouTube and the YouTubers on there work incredibly hard to get the views and money they now have, of course it was easier back in the early days of YT, Shay Carl says it's just Time and Pressure, that's all it is and he too believes it's a myth that you have to be in the right place at the right time, you get yourself there nobody else gets you there, it just takes 1 person to give you that chance (and i know a lot of people are very picky and critical about who way too much), but that's it really, so go for the Apprenticeship, i'm not entirely sure how far if get myself but at least i would get to be a cook if not all goes well but i got myself work as a cook at least, nobody can ever predict what happens.


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

An interesting interview with David Chang on Culinary Schools.


> David Chang. The Momofuku empire-builder once took his frustration to Twitter, telling culinary schools to "stop sending kids to resorts & hotels where they will learn nothing...its [sic] poisoning our talent pool." *He has also advocated for the return of apprenticeship programs in lieu of culinary school*.


http://eater.com/archives/2013/07/11/david-chang-on-culinary-school-the-system-is-broken.php


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeh i agree with that guy that many parts of society is broken to an extent it's utterly useless doing it, doesn't have an actual point it just pays in cash to them and that's it, indeed schools and colleges are just there now for intuition fees, they are a money making business not a school, apprenticeships here in the UK though are probably the best thing going for all of us right now but it's turning the same was as the US which isn't a good thing.

For now we actually have the government investing in apprenticeships and we get to learn in restaurants but even in the US it's got to be a better way to learn than say colleges or cooking schools, you at least learn a lot more, just got to find what we can and YouTube have a lot of videos to learn from as we know, and i have no doubt some family members can help out, my dad knows how to use certain tools like sharpening stones so id ask around your family too and see what they know.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Dillbert said:


> >>no recognized qualifications
> 
> yes, but that has zip comma zero relationship to "fees / charges / wages"
> 
> ...


----------



## helarfurthon (Mar 19, 2014)

It is the part and parcel of culinary training, which you have to go through.


----------



## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

well, good luck with that.


----------



## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh i agree on the part about Da Vinci just because he thought differently from others and was smarter he got shoved down far too often by others, i get the same and it's a tougher life believe me but it's so worth it, constantly being told no because you don't fit the "profile" of a typical person gets very disheartening regularly but you always manage to get up again some how.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Foodpump, I understand where you're coming from, but I want to make quite clear that while I DID say that in our country, one has the ability to open whatever business they choose

I NEVER said anything pertaining to the idea that one needs experience and knowledge to do so.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Fair enough.  You do need experience and knowledge to get a driver's license though.

You know the rates of failure for restaurants in the first 6 mths of operation as well as I do.  You also know what kind of a mess an  operator with no experience can, and does, make.

If you've ever talked to health inspectors--regardless of which N.American city they work in, they will all tell you that all operators need to know what they're doing before they hand out menus.

"                                 " plumbing, electrical, and fire inspectors "                                           "  they will tell you the same thing, and  probably will illustrate with a few horror stories.

Now, if you've ever eaten at a Chinese banquet or wedding, at a table of ten other people sharing the same dish of food, you will know it is custom to enquire of your table guest's health BEFORE eating.

Why?

They all eat from the same dish.  What affects you affects me.

We are all competing for the same dining dollar--eating from the same dish.

The newly opened diner that uses microwavable pasta dishes and muffins from Costco and closes down within 4 mths affects all other foodservice establishments in the area.  Every corner is cut, every penny sliced during this long, slow, painful death from opening to shutting down.  Staff are paid bare minimum, food quality is non existent (microwaved, refrigerated Danish, anyone?) and the public is used to it--the quality and prices.

 Freedom is a word difficult to describe........


----------



## achef475 (Feb 16, 2016)

riderc90 said:


> So I have heard of this type of thing but have never seen a job posting or anything seeking an apprentice chef. What exactly is it? How do you find such positions? Is it a productive alternative to culinary school?


----------



## achef475 (Feb 16, 2016)

I graduated the ACF apprentice program. And it worked out well for me. I saved about 50-60 thousand dollars on culinary school and doing just fine for myself. It's about the person and your drive not necessarily your education.


----------

