# What has happened to Apple pie? Apples never seem fully cooked.



## jayelmstreet

Growing up, my grandmother never failed at making great apple pie. The crust was always good and the apples always tender (didn't say mushy). A good home baked apple pie is the closest thing to perfection I know of.

People know I love pie and I've had many well-meaning people make apple pies for me. I am always gracious and thankful, but the vast majority have undercooked "still crunchy" apples in them. Ugh!

What happened? Did apples change? Did recipes change? Did pie pans change? I've tried to form a good hypothesis, but can't come up with one. Maybe it's the altitude where I now live.

I'm guessing some people may actually prefer to have the apples still somewhat crunchy, but I cannot acquire that taste. Can anyone shed some light on this?


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## pateachoux

I'm with you...I love a great apple pie. I've made quite a few over the years. I imagine it's a matter of most people not pre-cooking their apples before baking them in the pie. Also, people might under-bake their pies because they're afraid they'll burn the crust--not knowing the aluminum foil trick. Until culinary school, I never pre-cooked my apples, then last semester we made an apple and cranberry pie (I know, weird combo, right? But it's actually a magical combination!) that required the apples to be sauteed in butter until tender, then we added the cranberries, sugar and a slurry made from cornstarch and water. We brought it back to a boil, then the mixture was cooled in an ice bath before filling the pie shell.  It came out amazing, and the apples were perfectly tender, but not mushy. As far as pie crust goes...it's my most favorite thing in the world to make. Practice makes perfect, and not just anyone can master the art of pie crust.


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## kokopuffs

Pateachoux said:


> ...Also, people might under-bake their pies because they're afraid they'll burn the crust--not knowing the aluminum foil trick....


You mean covering the rim of the crust with a small strip of foil like an experienced tarte or quiche baker would do?


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## pateachoux

Isn't that what I basically said? lol! ...and actually, it doesn't take an experienced 'tarte or quiche' (<------since that's the main subject here...tarts and quiche...) baker. I learned this method from my grandmother when I was like, um, ten. Also, any INexperienced baker can learn lots of things from...gasp..the internet!


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## prettycake

I cook my apple filling before I put it in the crust..  I do not like pie with almost raw apples..  I might as well wrap a whole apple w/ crust and bite into it.


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## sherbel

I never pre-cook apples for apple pie, but I choose an apple that will cook down nicely as the pie bakes. The type of apple is important! Some are simply horrid in a pie. (Red Delicious. Non-Delicious at any speed, IMO.)

I use only McIntosh apples for pie, they're not really in vogue these days, but I love them. Some prefer Granny Smith, but to me they're too firm and tart for pie. They will cook down somewhat, but will retain their shape (and tartness) more than the Mac. It's a matter of personal preference, but if you want a soft, sweet filling in a pie, give the McIntosh a try. In addition, the smaller the pieces of apple, the more they will cook down; huge chunks will take longer to cook. I peel my apples, and then cut a horizontal line right through to the core. I then slice vertically, working my way around the apple. The pieces are fairly random, but I keep them thinnish...no giant chunks. This also results in more surface area for sugar and spice to be absorbed.

Needless to say, in this application I'm not concerned with 'pretty' slices; I save that for Tart Tatin and other desserts where appearance is critical.


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## kuan

I guess, you have to cook them until they are tender?  I toss mine in sugar and spice.  When the caramel starts oozing out the crust I know they have to be done.    Poke it with a knife for good measure and pull it out of the oven.


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## petalsandcoco

Pateachoux said:


> Practice makes perfect, and not just anyone can master the art of pie crust.


. Some folks use lard, some veg. shortening, others a mix, but I find tenderflake makes for a nice texture. Then there is the whole art of the pie crust, thats a bird of another feather. Pateachoux, when you can braid or encircle a crust with sculpted leaves the way you do, it brings pies to a whole new art form.

I use cortland apples for my pies.

And may I be brazing to say I like a thin slice of old cheddar with that pie.....I'm bad.


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## prettycake

One thing I noticed when the filling is not pre cooked, they shrink and the space between the top crust and the filling is like a cave or a huge empty grave or space. I like the cooked consistency and the filling is not somewhat dry. I do not pre cook them until they are mushey or like baby food, just enough for the apples to get a little soft.. as for the crust, I combine shortening and butter.. All shortening makes crust hard, but butter and shortening makes it flakey. In my experience.


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## chefedb

A lot of places are using frozen apples and they are not as good as fresh or even canned, They are chewy like a piece of bubble gum.


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## pateachoux

petalsandcoco said:


> . Some folks use lard, some veg. shortening, others a mix, but I find tenderflake makes for a nice texture. Then there is the whole art of the pie crust, thats a bird of another feather. Pateachoux, when you can braid or encircle a crust with sculpted leaves the way you do, it brings pies to a whole new art form.
> 
> I use cortland apples for my pies.
> 
> And may I be brazing to say I like a thin slice of old cheddar with that pie.....I'm bad.


One of these days I'm going to try cheddar on apple pie. I read a lot about it one day when I was as bit obsessed with studying apple pie. It seems to be popular in the northeastern U.S. I'm still not too sure about it, though.


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## rrcos

A couple of years ago, America's Test Kitchen posted a pie that called for precooking the apples.. I tried it and the pie was amazing. No air pockets and no mushy apples.. just a perfect pie.





  








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rrcos


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Dec 12, 2012


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## prettycake

RRCos said:


> A couple of years ago, America's Test Kitchen posted a pie that called for precooking the apples.. I tried it and the pie was amazing. No air pockets and no mushy apples.. just a perfect pie.
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THANK YOU... that is exactly what I was saying... air pockets/empty mass grave look terrible. Pre cooking the filling will result to better looking and tasting pie. Apple pie that will not taste like Apple tart.. a big difference..


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## pateachoux

I believe that is what I said from the very beginning...


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## kippers

We have the Bramley cooking apple over here, its guaranteed to "fall" in a pie.I use the desert apple Cox Orange Pippins for tarts because they "hold" well. Birds custard cannot be beaten.


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## chefedb

Canned apple pie filling is cooked and many places have used for years.


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## jayelmstreet

These responses have been interesting to read. Thank you to all.  I think the precooking makes a lot of sense, but to play the devil's advocate, I'd like to re-ask the original question.

I know my grandmother didn't precook her apples, and don't remember any huge air pockets--just perfect apple pie.

So, what has happened? I still don't get why it seems this is so prevalent all of a sudden?  The people I know all used fresh apples. Maybe it is the fear of burning the crust so they are under-baking, but...


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## michaelga

apples were only made into pie ...  after they were no longer 'good' to eat out of hand... ie. she was likely using very ripe (soft) but not rotten apples

maybe also just the bruised ones (think  of bad apples - and what does a frugal grammy do?)


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## prettycake

JayElmstreet said:


> These responses have been interesting to read. Thank you to all. I think the precooking makes a lot of sense, but to play the devil's advocate, I'd like to re-ask the original question.
> 
> I know my grandmother didn't precook her apples, and don't remember any huge air pockets--just perfect apple pie.
> 
> So, what has happened? I still don't get why it seems this is so prevalent all of a sudden? The people I know all used fresh apples. Maybe it is the fear of burning the crust so they are under-baking, but...


Cutting the FRESH apples and pre cooking them is still considered fresh. I myself do not use can.. Just because it is pre cooked does not mean it is not considered fresh..


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## prettycake

Pateachoux said:


> I believe that is what I said from the very beginning...


I love repeating things you know. I enjoy it a lot /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## pateachoux

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round...


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## pateachoux

JayElmstreet said:


> These responses have been interesting to read. Thank you to all. I think the precooking makes a lot of sense, but to play the devil's advocate, I'd like to re-ask the original question.
> 
> I know my grandmother didn't precook her apples, and don't remember any huge air pockets--just perfect apple pie.
> 
> So, what has happened? I still don't get why it seems this is so prevalent all of a sudden? The people I know all used fresh apples. Maybe it is the fear of burning the crust so they are under-baking, but...


It has to be that your grandmother had magical baking powers. I know mine did.


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## prettycake

A magic wand like Harry Potter..  "EXPERIYAMUS"  "LAVIOSA" :lol: :bounce: one more, inspekto patronam.


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## prettycake

I didn't know Barney the big fat dinosaur is also a chef


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## jayelmstreet

> It has to be that your grandmother had magical baking powers. I know mine did.


In fact she did have magical powers, but like Samantha, she never used them for house chores unless absolutely pressed for time.


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## nathaliee

It might depend on the type of apple you use...


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## jayelmstreet

I may have broken the code. I searched for an old recipe and here's what I discovered and tested. The older recipes called for a lot more flour, sugar and butter and a lot less fresh fruit. I took one of the older recipes and cut back from 1 cup of sugar to 3/4 (still 1/4 more than most recipes) and used 1/2 cup of flour. The recipe called for only 4 cups of apples (new recipes seem to go with about 6-8). I used 5. What I got was a pie that was tender and quite sweet and firm.

My conclusion is that newer recipes are seeking a healthier mix, but may be trading in the tenderness factor unless they are precooking the apples.

I think I will keep toying with this until I reach a happy medium. I think I can reduce the butter (used 1 stick as recipe suggested) and try going with less sugar.

I did use a different apple, but don't think this was pivotal.


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## phids

This was an interesting thread to read since I recently baked an apple pie in which the apples came out too hard (I did not pre-cook the apples).  I assumed it was because the apples were too large and they didn't bake in enough liquid/sauce.

In response to the concern about the gap between the top crust and apples that can form if the apples are not pre-cooked, try this trick: after cutting the apples, toss them with sugar and let them sit in a colander for 90 minutes or so (capture the juices for later use).  This drains the juices and reduces the size of the apples so they will not shrink as much during baking.  Alton Brown did this on one of his episodes, and I've tried it a few times and it's worked.


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## panini

@Phids,

Well if you bought your apples in a grocery store they were probably very unripe. Most apples are picked unripe or too early and sprayed with a chemical and then waxed. They usually

hit your grocer a year later. When baking it is always better to use local ingredients.


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## melissa harris

I also use McIntosh and was surprised to see sites they say not to use them. I have won several local awards for my grandmother's apple pie.

I hate crunchy pie apples. They seem so processed. by that I mean made by a machine and not love.


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## atlantis43

I'm no expert (but my mom was!) Problem might be that "granny smiths" replaced whatever variety was previously the common variety in the 1950's & 60's (I think they were just referred to as "greenings"),  which cooked the way you remember.


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## kokopuffs

Prettycake said:


> THANK YOU... that is exactly what I was saying... air pockets/empty mass grave look terrible. Pre cooking the filling will result to better looking and tasting pie. Apple pie that will not taste like Apple tart.. a big difference..


And the difference between apple tart and pie is what - in terms of flavor????


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## fablesable

Heya @kokopuffs I am going to assume that the poster did not mean to say taste so much as texture might be different. However, that is all determined by the recipe and what the baker would like as the ultimate outcome, pie or tart. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## brianshaw

Well I'd say there is a big difference in taste between apple pie and tart. Part of it is the type of crust that is often different. And the ratio of Apple to crust is different. So could the level of sweet and the spicing be different. It all depends. 

And of course an apple is it an apple is not an apple. 


But apple pie isn't apple pie - there are differences between American and British apple pie... And differences between my mom's and her mothers pie.


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## atlantis43

JayElmstreet said:


> These responses have been interesting to read. Thank you to all. I think the precooking makes a lot of sense, but to play the devil's advocate, I'd like to re-ask the original question.
> 
> I know my grandmother didn't precook her apples, and don't remember any huge air pockets--just perfect apple pie.
> 
> So, what has happened? I still don't get why it seems this is so prevalent all of a sudden? The people I know all used fresh apples. Maybe it is the fear of burning the crust so they are under-baking, but...


_Just re-posting with the original author quote :_

I'm no expert (but my mom was!) Problem might be that "granny smiths" replaced whatever variety was previously the common variety in the 1950's & 60's (I think they were just referred to as "greenings"), which cooked the way you remember.


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## kokopuffs

And I'll repost from some other thread.  With tarts, they're served cold with the attention focusing on the buttery crust; with apple pie, the filling.  Let the flame wars begin!!!!!!!!!    8)

And always remember, baking (and cooking) are infinite.


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## brianshaw

Your right Koko. No flame war needed.


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## kokopuffs

I'd really like hearing more about the cheddar cheese with apple pie.


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## kokopuffs

Also my latest apple tart was made using golden delicious apples.  The final product was soft and the apples "shied" away from the knife when cutting a slice.  Not so using granny smith apples.  And the latter imho provided a better flavor as far as apple tarts go.


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## brianshaw

There's a saying at one of our local pie shops: Apple pie without a slice of cheese is like a hug without a kiss.


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## fablesable

I grate some 2 year old white cheddar or aged whiskey cheddar into my crusts. LOVE cheese with apple anything! I also use a variety of apples in my tarts or pies.....not just one. I grow 'September Ruby', 'Honeycrisp', and 'Parkland' apple varieties that I use. I occasionally add in store bought Golden Delicious and Gala or Pink Lady apples. I like the diverse flavour that mixing apple varieties brings to the table. 

Also, don't be afraid to try some blue cheese varieties with your apple pie.....yummy!!


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## kokopuffs

HHHHmmmmmmmmmmmmm MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Fablesable said:


> I grate some 2 year old white cheddar or aged whiskey cheddar into my crusts. LOVE cheese with apple anything! I also use a variety of apples in my tarts or pies.....not just one. I grow 'September Ruby', 'Honeycrisp', and 'Parkland' apple varieties that I use. I occasionally add in store bought Golden Delicious and Gala or Pink Lady apples. I like the diverse flavour that mixing apple varieties brings to the table.
> 
> Also, don't be afraid to try some blue cheese varieties with your apple pie.....yummy!!


HHHHmmmmmmmmmmmmm MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kokopuffs

Fablesable said:


> I grate some 2 year old white cheddar or aged whiskey cheddar into my crusts. LOVE cheese with apple anything! I also use a variety of apples in my tarts or pies.....not just one. I grow 'September Ruby', 'Honeycrisp', and 'Parkland' apple varieties that I use. I occasionally add in store bought Golden Delicious and Gala or Pink Lady apples. I like the diverse flavour that mixing apple varieties brings to the table.
> 
> Also, don't be afraid to try some blue cheese varieties with your apple pie.....yummy!!


??? You grate the cheese into your crusts on into the *dough????? 8)*


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## fablesable

Yup........mixed into the crusts roughly 1 cup for a tart base and 2 cups for a full pie. I cut it in when I am cutting the fat in. The bake time is a weeeeee bit less but not by much and all depending on the cheese. Freakin awesome!!! The blue cheeses I have on the side fresh when the pie is straight outta the oven all warm like.

I am also experimenting with some smoked goudas and cheddars in the crust as well as I like a beautiful slice of camembert on top of a fresh warm slice of apple pie (or raisin pie or pear tart) is amazing. I did do a sugar pie with asiago and parmesan in the crust.....was really good. I also add some nice bourbon, scotch or whiskey to this as well so I am thinking a stronger cheese though for next time.

I LOVE the cheese with fruit combo....especially apple and sharp cheddar! Ohhhh yea......I could preach on brother but I am thinking you get the drift.......hehehe....../img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## flipflopgirl

Fablesable said:


> Yup........mixed into the crusts roughly 1 cup for a tart base and 2 cups for a full pie. I cut it in when I am cutting the fat in. The bake time is a weeeeee bit less but not by much and all depending on the cheese. Freakin awesome!!! The blue cheeses I have on the side fresh when the pie is straight outta the oven all warm like.
> 
> I am also experimenting with some smoked goudas and cheddars in the crust as well as I like a beautiful slice of camembert on top of a fresh warm slice of apple pie (or raisin pie or pear tart) is amazing. I did do a sugar pie with asiago and parmesan in the crust.....was really good. I also add some nice bourbon, scotch or whiskey to this as well so I am thinking a stronger cheese though for next time.
> 
> I LOVE the cheese with fruit combo....especially apple and sharp cheddar! Ohhhh yea......I could preach on brother but I am thinking you get the drift.......hehehe....../img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


Now we are talkin'!

A wee bit OT but a blue goes great with mincemeat as well!

mimi


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## kokopuffs

Fablesable said:


> Yup........mixed into the crusts roughly 1 cup for a tart base and 2 cups for a full pie. ........./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


Clarification needed. Is the cheese grated into the ingredients for the dough and then mixed???? Or is the cheese grated on top of the baked crust???? Inquiring minds need to know!!!!!!!!!!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rollsmile.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## praties

Granny Smiths for me every time unless I can stumble into some Mackintosh apples.  Sadly, they're scare even here in Washington since all the growers jump on the bandwagon and plant whatever's "in" at the time.  *Still hoping to try an apple I once read about--Sheep's Nose.  Normally a cider apple, but I'm curious!*


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## kokopuffs

Hmmmmm, since Washington is a very rainy state, no wonder the apples are diluted and not like grannies!!!!  Tart and firm.


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## fablesable

@kokopuffs I mix the grated cheese into the dry ingredients right before I cut in the fat. The cheese is mixed INTO the crust. So yes, the cheese is grated into the ingredients for the dough and then mixed. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## kokopuffs

Fablesable said:


> @kokopuffs I mix the grated cheese into the dry ingredients right before I cut in the fat. The cheese is mixed INTO the crust. So yes, the cheese is grated into the ingredients for the dough and then mixed. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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