# Help with All-Butter Pie Crusts



## alaessig (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm learning to make flaky all-butter pie crusts, and have had pretty consistent (hilariously bad) results all three times. I'm not sure what's going wrong and would be super grateful for this community's feedback on what's causing it. Here's a couple pics of my latest crust for reference:


http://imgur.com/a/fG3iRpF

.

I'm using Erin Jeanne McDowell's recipe and have watched her crust video a few times. My dough looks/feels pretty good until it hits the oven... and then all three crusts have become boiling butter lakes. The end result is almost like a thick taco salad bowl, except way harder and less... edible. I also noticed lots of shrinkage when I remove the weights/parchment and let it fully bake.

I've tried to reduce the amount of water as much as possible each try and extend the chill times, but it hasn't really made a difference in the end result. Any feedback on what should I change to avoid this? Thanks for your help!


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

How long are you letting the dough rest? 
Personally I think it's helpful to use a blend of shortening and butter as you develop your skill/ability. I am notoriously bad at pie crust (I always add too much water and rush it so it's tougher instead of tender). I would recommend the crust recipes from the Pie and Pastry Bible by Rose Levy Beranbaum for a beginner.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Pie dough is notorious for making people believe it's easy to work with but the truth is that pie dough needs several rests not just one. Yes, you make the dough, mold it into a disk, wrap it and allow it to rest before rolling it out.
After you take it out from the fridge, it's going to be stiff. If you try to roll it, you'll have cracks. Allow the pie dough to sit out covered for 10 minutes before you roll it.
So, you've used ample flour and a rolling pin to roll the dough put larger than the pie tin.
Now...allow this to rest for 5 minutes before you drape it into the tin. 
Do not try to pull the dough or stretch it if it's not large enough. 
Take the dough back to the floured board and roll it larger.
Pulling and stretching dough makes it's shrink during baking. 
Allow to rest again before baking.
Blind baking requires the dough to be pricked with a fork all over, then covered and weighted.
Allow to rest yet again. 
You will be surprised what these simple rest times will do for your dough.


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## Tyler520 (Oct 16, 2018)

I would supplement chef Ross' comment with two important pieces of additional info. The longer you can allow your dough to rest the first time,the better - overnight is ideal. It allows the flour to fully hydrate to its maximum potential,and allows the gluten chains to start to relax.

And as a final step before blind baking the crust, after forming your crust, pop it in the freezer for half an hour before baking. The warmer the butter is,the faster it will liquify and run out of the crust. In fact, the colder you can keep all of your equipment and ingredients at every step, the better - some people even keep their flour and bowls in the freezer.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

alaessig said:


> I'm learning to make flaky all-butter pie crusts, and have had pretty consistent (hilariously bad) results all three times. I'm not sure what's going wrong and would be super grateful for this community's feedback on what's causing it. Here's a couple pics of my latest crust for reference:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/fG3iRpF
> ...


Butter is the worst way to make pie dough, the water content makes the dough elastic, causes shrinking and makes for tough texture.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

retiredbaker said:


> Butter is the worst way to make pie dough, the water content makes the dough elastic, causes shrinking and makes for tough texture.


It's not the butter, it's the technique. Think Pate Brisee, an all butter pastry crust.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

chefross said:


> It's not the butter, it's the technique. Think Pate Brisee, an all butter pastry crust.


Try the recipe on the side of a crisco can, you'll see was the butter.
When I see blind baking required for a simple pie it tells me the wrong dough is being used.
Theres a mentality that since butter tastes better it is better, that sort of reductionist logic fails to account for the emergent properties in baking.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Retiredbaker, did you not read my pervious posts on this thread about the handling of pie crust? Matters not if it's Crisco or butter, lard, or margarine for that matter. I say again, it's in the technique.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

chefross said:


> Retiredbaker, did you not read my pervious posts on this thread about the handling of pie crust? Matters not if it's Crisco or butter, lard, or margarine for that matter. I say again, it's in the technique.


yeh saw that and I'm wondering what you're doing, pie dough in my hands requires no resting.
No chilling if you're light handed with a pin. 
something is fundamentally amiss.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)




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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

I saw the video and I can now understand why for favor Crisco. 
Did you hear the guy say that if you use cold butter the dough would be even more stable (3:04) ?
Chilling the dough for a time allows the gluten strands to relax. Keeping the dough cool while you are rolling it, and allowing it to rest between rolls, keeps the dough from shrinking, as does pulling and stretching it.
It would seem that either: Crisco pie dough allows for immediate use....OR.....(trying to be nice)....... this guys a shoemaker!!


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

chefross said:


> I saw the video and I can now understand why for favor Crisco.
> Did you hear the guy say that if you use cold butter the dough would be even more stable (3:04) ?
> Chilling the dough for a time allows the gluten strands to relax. Keeping the dough cool while you are rolling it, and allowing it to rest between rolls, keeps the dough from shrinking, as does pulling and stretching it.
> It would seem that either: Crisco pie dough allows for immediate use....OR.....(trying to be nice)....... this guys a shoemaker!!


There shouldn't be any gluten strands.

If you can make bread with the flour then its no good for pie dough.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

retiredbaker said:


> There shouldn't be any gluten strands.
> 
> If you can make bread with the flour then its no good for pie dough.


OY!

What do you use to make pie dough with?
All flour contains gluten, so I guess I don't follow your reasoning. 
Gluten is what gives dough structure. Gluten is made when water is added to flour.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

chefross said:


> OY!
> 
> What do you use to make pie dough with?
> All flour contains gluten, so I guess I don't follow your reasoning.
> Gluten is what gives dough structure. Gluten is made when water is added to flour.


 pastry flour. !
Read the product description.
https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/i...wmmQz1Rcecv8ZlDCO_RjV3kkJ9goK-qhoCOvUQAvD_BwE


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## STEPHEN WOODARD (Aug 13, 2019)

Hmmm. I made a dough with ap flour, baking powder, sugar, salt, soured milk, and butter. The only work the dough saw was two gentle triple folds, then five minutes in the freezer, roll out and fill. I will use ice water, but feel the dairy creates a better crust when blind baking. When I do work dough, its gentle, more of a smear to spread the butter throughout the dough. Attached a pic of a lemon chess pie I made yesterday. You just have to do things over and over.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

STEPHEN WOODARD said:


> Hmmm. I made a dough with ap flour, baking powder, sugar, salt, soured milk, and butter. The only work the dough saw was two gentle triple folds, then five minutes in the freezer, roll out and fill. I will use ice water, but feel the dairy creates a better crust when blind baking. When I do work dough, its gentle, more of a smear to spread the butter throughout the dough. Attached a pic of a lemon chess pie I made yesterday. You just have to do things over and over.


you made rough puff ?


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## STEPHEN WOODARD (Aug 13, 2019)

retiredbaker said:


> you made rough puff ?


I aint a baker, but after a while some things start to work. Preciate your post. carry on.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

STEPHEN WOODARD said:


> I aint a baker, but after a while some things start to work. Preciate your post. carry on.


if you get to a point where you wonder why the shell shrunk on that pie, now you'll know why and how to stop it.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

retiredbaker said:


> pastry flour. !
> Read the product description.
> https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/i...wmmQz1Rcecv8ZlDCO_RjV3kkJ9goK-qhoCOvUQAvD_BwE


Thanks for the info. So the fine texture negates the need for resting the dough....? 
Still not convinced.

I know that an acid or alcohol added to pie dough will make it more elastic and help with the flakiness. An egg added to the dough will make it more malleable and easier to roll.

I researched 8 recipes using pastry flour and 6 of them had resting the dough as a necessity.
Granted that the other 2 had you use the dough right from the mixer, but even their recipe required the fat be very cold and even putting the flour, salt, in a bag, in the freezer for an hour before proceeding.
Very curious indeed.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

chefross said:


> Thanks for the info. So the fine texture negates the need for resting the dough....?
> Still not convinced.
> 
> I know that an acid or alcohol added to pie dough will make it more elastic and help with the flakiness. An egg added to the dough will make it more malleable and easier to roll.
> ...


Its all about the 8% protein in pastry flour.


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## STEPHEN WOODARD (Aug 13, 2019)

retiredbaker said:


> if you get to a point where you wonder why the shell shrunk on that pie, now you'll know why and how to stop it.


I also make regular old time dough with vegetable oil, ice, milk, flour, and salt. Thanks so much for your point of view. Am really just a short order breakfast cook at heart.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My dough takes three days to make. 

Day one mix, form into a ball, wrap and refrigerate for 24 hours to relax the gluten.
Day two roll out the dough and place into the appropriate pan, cover and refrigerate for 24 hours to relax the gluten.
Day three blind bake.
For my tart doughs I use Ruhlman's ratio or 3:2:1, Double that ratio to 6:4:2. In other words 6oz White Lily AP, 4oz butterfat and 2oz water. Note I stated butterfat. Since American butter is largely 20% water, I add an extra ounce of butter to the recipe making it 5oz butter which yields 4oz of butterfat.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

STEPHEN WOODARD said:


> ............ When I do work dough, its gentle, more of a smear to spread the butter throughout the dough. ..........


Julia Child called that technique "fraisage" or "coming down from the mountain", smearing the rough ball of dough with the heel of the hand. It flattens the butter leading to a flakier crust.


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