# Converting old building to a bakery



## forager (Oct 11, 2012)

I have dreamed for years and years to own a bakery cafe. I currently work in a stable  career where I make a decent living, but am getting worn out. I recently found a building for sale right in the neighborhood that I'd like to have a bakery, and which is in great need of a bakery. Despite the nice surrounding businesses and homes the building is not in the best shape, but might be a fair price. It is currently an office building and home (connected) so there is no existing kitchen aside from a very old home kitchen from the 20's. 

If I went ahead with the purchase there would be quite a bit of work needed to get the building suitable for what I envision. 

I looked at some other forums about the cost of building a commercial kitchen in a new space, but I'm curious about building in an existing space that is not set up electrically or even structurally. Does anyone have any advice or experience in doing anything like this? I am wondering about the practicality of having a mortgage payment and finding funding for a remodel. 

I'd also like to say that I am a good baker (but will need more schooling) and though I am passionate about it, where my strengths lay now is in managing/directing and have a good head for business in general. 

Thank you any feed back would be very helpful!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Oh dear........

Go right now to your municipality and get the local fire, electrical, plumbing, and health codes for commercial use. Every municiplality is different

There is a reason the building was not upgraded, and that reason is cost.

For a bakery you will need a_* minimum of 200 amps 3 phase., *_and that's assuming you have a gas line. What will it cost to bring such an electrical service to the building?

What condition are the floors, cieling, walls and roof in? How old is the current plumbing, and what will be needed to bring it to comercial plumbing code?

If you don't know what you are getting into, it can be very expensive........


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Food Pump is 100% right . Some places you may even have to install huge grease traps depending on location. Conversion sometime is as costly as new construction, as you never know what you will encounter.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Reiterating FoodPump, check with:

Local Health department for commercial kitchen standards, they usually require a floor plan as a minimum
Local Planning/Building department for electrical, plumbing, and building codes as well as current zoning requirements, many jurisdictions differentiate between office and commercial/retail zones. May need a Conditional Use Permit. Also, ADA requirements for access, i.e. door widths, ADA restrooms, etc.
Local fire department for fire codes, including sprinklers, emergency exits, ventilation (hoods), and fire suppression (ANSUL)
Local electrical utility for availability of MINIMUM 200 amp, 240 volt, 3 phase service
Local natural gas utility for availability of MINIMUM 1" natural gas supply
Local records office for deed restrictions
Insurance agent for insurance requirements


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

Fellow-food-guys are right, research heavily even if you have to hire somone

to walk the space and give you an informed estimate of what all has to be done.

In many cases, bringing an old sub-standard building up to

current commercial codes can quickly become far more costly than

a new contruction scenario--which aint cheap as it is--due to tear-outs,

re-dos, alterations/having-to-fit-things-in, not to mention cost of disposing

of all the obsolete/refuse materials. Which often can include legally "hazardous" stuff.

So look before leaping....hopefully not straight into an abyss.


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## roman (Dec 12, 2008)

Hire an architect - one who has experience with commercial bakeries and restaurants in the area where you want to set up. He'll know what's required and what standards need to be met.
Walk through the building with him - he should be able to give you a good idea if things will work out and a rough estimate of costs. He'll also have access to all of the trades (electrician, plumber, gas fitter, etc) you're going to need and will be able to call on them (in many cases without any additional cost to you) in order to figure out if actually can meet the local regulations.

If it's not viable, he should be able to let you know before you're in too deep


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Another thing - check with your local historical societies / BBB's and Chamber of Commerce etc.   

Find out if they have any previous knowledge of the place, particularly if anyone else has tried to fix it up and if they have any money to throw at rejuvenating it.

Honestly if you don't have outside help or at least a 'historical edge' in re-rolling the entire building you'd do much better finding even cheaper land nearby and going new construction.

(also a lot of this advice (above advice included) depends on where you live, some provinces have much less strict regulations and the ability to 'interpret' them for the sake of common sense) 

PS - if you're in Cali... you're screwed that place has so many insane laws and hoops i'm amazed that anything ever gets done.

(I still have huge awe and respect for those that do open a business there)


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

roman said:


> Hire an architect - one who has experience with commercial bakeries and restaurants in the area where you want to set up.


Ehhh...No.

Architects don't know diddly squat about food service kitchens, or for that matter hospital layouts, prison layouts, or factory layouts. For foodservice kitchens, 99% of the architects farm out the design to a restaurant equipment supplier. Dining room is another story They do know the trade codes, but not the health codes.

I've got two architects in my family, they don't know that all cooler doors open outwards, or that the dishpit should be located as near to the service doors as possible.

Architects are expensive and don't like to waste time on projects that don't have a decent chance of even making it to the bank.

No, if you want an informed opinion about opening a potential restaurant or bakery in an old building, you go down to your bank manager and ask him to give you the name of his most trusted home/building inspector that he uses for commercial buildings. Two to three hours poking around the place and at the end an educated opinion should set you back maybe three hundred bucks.

Remember, there is a lot of "other stuff" that has to be considered along with the health of the building:

Zoning

Parking (novels can be and have been written about this issue)

Fire code upgrades (ie sprinklers, fire hose connections, fire panel, etc)

Seismic upgrades if required

Rough estimate of electrical upgrades

Rough estimate of plumbing upgrades

Rough estimate of HVAC, including ventilation (if required)


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

A seasoned pro. from a rest. equipment supply is better at kitchen layout then any arcitect. \\\and can answer all questions re equipment where arc\citect cant, because he doesn;t know equipment.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

On the bright side most places that go under do so for the lack of an owner with any practical business experience.

A person that can create awesome dishes or decorate a beautiful wedding cake and has no head for numbers is (IMO) doomed.

Take a step back, hire a pro to council you and then write a ruthlessly honest business plan.

Hope things work for you, a bakery in a historical building, done right, can make you a nice income.

mimi


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## roman (Dec 12, 2008)

Like everything else, depends - if you get an architect that does everything from prisons to factories, then you're right - you can't (and shouldn't) expect them to know food service. If you get one who's does mostly food service then they do know the ins and outs. If they're not sure about something, then they know who to call to find out. Some of the work does get subbed out (for example - hood design), but a lot is done in house.
He charges by the hour to start - he's not cheap, but at the end of the consult, you've pretty much got enough information to make an informed go/no-go decision for the location. If it's a go, a contract is drawn up and you're on your way. If not, his time is paid for and there are no hard feelings and he's more then happy to help other locations. 
Most cities won't give you a commercial building permit without plans signed off by an architect, So you're going to end up hiring one anyways. 
Personally, I wouldn't (and didn't) hire a building inspector - they might know buildings but don't have the depth of knowledge an architect does. They also probably don't know food service, zoning or any of the other regulations you're going to have to deal with.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

roman said:


> Most cities won't give you a commercial building permit without plans signed off by an architect, So you're going to end up hiring one anyways.


Maybe for a whole, complete new building that is a dedicated bakery or restaurant. But I have set up kitchens and restaurants in Canada, Singapore, and Switzerland and never needed an architect, or was one required. As you write, submitted drawings with a seal/stamp from a mechanical engineer is needed for the shaft and the hood, but I have never had the request for an architect's stamp or drawings.

The current bakery I'm in now, was my project. It was a unit in a brand new building and the building had completed it's occupancy permit. What I got was 4 cement walls, a cement floor and a cement ceiling, not even a hole in the floor for plumbing or even a light fixture. I hired a general contractor who hired the trades (plumbing, electrical, hvac). Since I have no gas appliances and no cooking equipment (deepfryers, griddles) I didn't need a hood. I drew up my own plans and submitted them to city hall and the health dept. These were approved, and all inspections passed, including final occupancy. I did all of the cabinetery, millwork, and merchandising displays myself.

This was pretty much the same situation in Switzerland, and in Singapore. I did run into problems with Singaporean health dept, who demanded a 2 hr rated firewall around my walk-in and freezer, and refused to elaborate as to why they demanded this, but I did as they asked (overbudget,I didn't see this coming) and passed all inspections on schedule.


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## restaurantconst (Sep 5, 2013)

[h2]Building, Occupancy and Zoning[/h2]
If the building in which you plan to open your bakery is a new construction, there are generally a number of permits, licenses and certifications that are required before you are allowed to occupy the premises. If the property is not zoned for a bakery, you may need to request a zoning variance or change in zoning. The city inspectors are usually required to inspect the property to confirm that the building is safe for occupancy before you are granted an occupancy permit. The local fire marshal will need to inspect the property before you are cleared to open. If the building is not new, but you plan to open a different type of business than was previously operated in the building, you will most likely need the same inspections as if the structure were new.

[h2]Taxes[/h2]
In order to operate a bakery, you will need to register with both the federal and state tax authorities. You will need an employer identification number, or EIN number, from the Internal Revenue Service. You will also need to obtain a sales and use tax certificate from the state department of revenue. If you plan to have employees, you will need to register with the unemployment office and workers' compensation board in your state, as well.

[h2]Business[/h2]
There are a number of business licenses or certificates that you may need to operate a bakery. You may wish to incorporate your business through your secretary of state. You also need to register your business name with the secretary of state as an assumed name or as a "doing business as," or D.B.A. name. A general business license is also often required, which can be obtained through the city or county where your bakery is located.

[h2]Food[/h2]
You will need to obtain a certificate or permit through the local department of health in order to sell food at your bakery. As you will likely be preparing the food you will be selling, the health department will need to complete an inspection of the premises before approving your permit. If you are using a deep fryer, for making doughnuts for example, there may be specific requirements in addition to the regular requirements for food preparation. If meat products are to be sold, you will need a permit from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and alcohol sales will require a liquor license obtained from the county or city.


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## nancym108 (Aug 26, 2014)

It is with great interest that I read your post about converting an old building into a bakery, since I am doing almost the same thing!  I bought a very old building(1820's)  in our village in upstate NY; in an excellent location directly across the street from a hospital with the idea of converting it into a tea room and bakery.  I'm about 18 months into it and have finally gotten the rezoning and building permit required. I've been working with an architect throughout the project; and most certainly the renovation will cost far more than I originally anticipated, but luckily I did not pay much for the building to begin with.  The building has been gutted since everything is being replaced anyway. I really love taking an old property and making it come alive again, and creating a beautiful environment.

I don't have much experience in food service (I worked in a cafeteria and was a Dunkin Donut girl in my youth) but I do have many years of business experience and understand costing, product development, branding & sales.  I love cooking, baking (especially cakes and desserts) & entertaining but I did not want the pressure of a full scale restaurant, so a tea room and bakery seemed like a good fit. We don't have a bakery or tea room in our village, and the project has enjoyed enormous public support thus far. 

After doing on-line research, menu/product development and anticipated volume is the key to equipment selection.  Basically I will be offering normal bakery items - specialty breads, cakes, cookies, cupcakes, scones & desserts; plus serving a formal afternoon tea which will include finger sandwiches & small savory side dishes.  I will be serving a variety of teas & hot and cold beverages; plus given the location I think hot breakfast sandwiches would go well.  We will also be promoting private parties and hope to segue into brunch.  I will have seating for about 32-36 indoors, plus another 12-16 outdoors on the pergola + 4-6 on the front porch.   

Where I am getting really hung up is the commercial kitchen design and the retail bakery design, for the display cases and working counter.  My architect is great for the building in general, but he does not have experience with commercial kitchens.  I don't really know what equipment is best, nor the best layout for the space.  I've been checking out equipment on line but it's pretty daunting.  It also seems very difficult to find out exactly what the regulations for commercial kitchens in our county, and I have to submit a detailed plan for the kitchen to get that portion of the project permitted. 

If anyone has any advice regarding equipment, kitchen and retail bakery layout, I'd welcome it. 

Thanks very much! - Nancy M.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hi Nancy,

Your menu seems very ambitious. Are you doing this alone?

You seem to understand business. You need to remember you run 2 businesses. Manufacturing/wholesale and retail. Leaving room for the wholesale is very important.

I can't stress enough, it is very tuff starting life trying to survive out of the register. You really need a secondary income.

Specialty breads is great, but I have found over the years that yeast work increases payroll, equipment cost, 20 hour labor times. You have to sell quite a lot of bread to equal one $50. 10" cake. I'd love to offer you more if you would like to PM.

I can also help with equipment needs.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I meant every word I said, DHcarch, architects don't have much knowledge of commercial kitchens.  Both my brother and his wife are architects, and my sister-in-law also teaches architecture.  Architects know design, codes, building and construction methods, and the ways and mysteries around city hall.  Give them a restaurant to design, and they will focus on design of the dining room, but will have no idea of kitchen layout and contract that out to a restaurant equipment supplier.  They don't even have the usual symbols for basic restaurant equipment ( sinks, mixers, fryers, stoves, etc) on their autocad programs. 

Designing a kitchen demands thorough knowledge of local health codes, and the architects are not familiar with this.  For instance, health code demands that staff washrooms are no further than 50 ft away from the work area, not many architects know this.  Dedicated handsinks, potsinks, pre-rinse sinks, mop sinks and vegetable prep sinks are a must, and most architects can't differentiate between them or understand why all are neccesary.   Lighting fixtures must be covered with a material that is NOT glass, they don't know that either, or to ensure that dry storage areas can not have any overhead waste water or sewage lines.  A lot of architects don't understand that virtually all walk-ins require remote compressors, and the further away this is, the larger and more expensive the compressor has to be, nor do they understand that if you cram a small room with refrigeration equipment, it will become unbearably hot.

Kitchens are 90% infrastructure and 10% design.  The location of the vent hood dictates the location of the stove, but the location  of the shaft dictates the location of the hood.  The building design and building materials dictate the location of the shaft.  Floor drains are a godsend, but no architect would even have an idea of putting one in, minimum sizes for greasetraps are 55 gals--a big, ugly, stupid box, and this has to be factored into the design, the more equipment you have, the large this box has to be  .  Hot water is also very important, and a good kitchen has it's own hot water tank, and this will need to be vented.  

All this stuff I mentioned is common knowledge to restaurant equipment dealers who usually have a design department.  Architects use these guys for the kitchens, they don't bother learning that kind of stuff.

Please, pretty please, don't take my word for all this.  Contact a few architects yourself.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

I am not disagreeing with your experience regarding architects.

It's just that I have a completely difference experience than yours.

I have two architect relatives. There are five architects living on the two blocks where I live. I have friends who are architects. I am impressed by their expertise in the specialties they are in. One of the five architects designed all the cooking facilities for the TV Foodnetwork. He has taken me to show me many of his kitchens he designed. Another one has taken me to many restaurants he has designed.

I know restaurant owners who are very pleased with their architects.

You will be a very unhappy client if you hire an architect whose specialty is hospitals to design your kitchen.

Likewise, you will be crazy to go to a gynecologist for brain surgery.

dcarch


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Agreed, there are architects who do specialize in commercial kitchens.

But commercial kitchen design isn't a subject covered in any Architectual curriculum, it's something learned in the field.  And not many architects specialize or have a working knowledge of commercial kitchens.

Like I said, most of the commercial kitchens are designed by restaurant equipment dealers who have a specialized department for this.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hi people,

I think we need to get back on track here and help Nancy.

The fact is her architect does not have kitchen experience. I went to school with the flintstones but I do remember my classes on kitchen design. Triangles to reduce steps and energy, etc.

Health codes are another thing. The simple fact is here in the states each area has their own interpretation of the FDA guidelines. I've done enough consulting over the years that most departments will accept plans ahead of time. That's not to say the project inspector and the CO inspector will see eye to eye. 90% of the time you will have a pretty healthy punch list. That's all part of it.

I just received a 1300. fine for my grease trap. The city changed it's codes and now we're required to have one the size of a car out back in the ground. 14K I had a $23. dollar water bill and have no grease in the kitchen. So it doesn't end in the beginning. You're always making changes. Oh, we've been in the same location for 18 yrs.

  I say with all the years experience on this forum, we get together and help Nancy. I don't know of another place with the experience here.


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## nancym108 (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all your good advice thus far! 

Well it does seem that folks have different opinions about architects and their level of expertise.  The reality is that I'm located in a small village in a rather remote region in upstate New York where we do not have a lot of restaurant design professionals ( if any!).  But what we do have is a SUNY ( State University of New York) campus nearby and they have a culinary school, so maybe I can get some local help there.  Hopefully whoever I wind up working with for equipment can offer some advice.   What surprises me is the difficulty I'm having in even getting the requirements from the Dept of Health for our county.  There is nothing on line and I'd think all the regulations would be accessible somewhere. Maybe I am not looking in the right place.  At least I am learning a tremendous amount about equipment on line.  I had never heard of a grease trap a few months ago...I don't intend to have a deep fryer so I was hoping to avoid the need for a hood, but have been informed I need one for a griddle. 

On to the menu, Jeff you remarked that it was ambitious.  Most of the afternoon tea food - at least the scones, cookies, desserts, etc will be from the bakery case.  I will limit the kinds of finger sandwiches and savories, and try to use as many common ingredients as possible.  I agree with you on the bread; the more I'm getting into it, bread does not seem like a good return on the time investment compared to cakes.  I will probably limit the yeast breads to kinds that command a higher price. I do love yeast-y aroma in a bakery. 

I can't do this all alone, and figured to hire 2 people in the kitchen and 2 -3 people out front for the bakery counter and wait staff.  Plus me, of course, floating everywhere and being the front face of the biz.  At least I am already accustomed to working a lot.  And I do understand manufacturing/ wholesale - now that's what I have been doing for the past 30 years!  In this business, Jeff when you say wholesale, do you mean supplying other restaurants with cakes, desserts, etc?  Maybe getting some branded product in an upscale grocery chain? 

Thanks, Nance


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

While I've designed and built out a few commercial kitchens, I have no experience with bakeries.

So Im foggy on what all is needed, but the codes for equipment remain basically the same.

Generally speaking an exhaust hood and ansil type fire suppresant system is required for

any appliance that cooks food in the open and can therefore start a grease fire.

This would include grill, range, deep fryer, flattop, and salamander broiler. 

Have you physically _walked _into your county heath dept office and asked for info and guidelines

on commercial kitchen requirements? If that doesnt work, as restaurant owners in the area--you might

be surprised at what you learn.

You definately nee to get estimates first, because things like the hood and fore system alone can run up a

lot of money..... so can that pesky grease trap, not to even mention the equipment and other contracted work.

My feeling on architects is that you need to present them with an already planned out kitchen, upon which they do their

whiz bang CAD magic. Ive found that letting them try to design it isnt usually a good idea


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

have you considered posting this question on a bakers forum like dan lepard's or the fresh loaf forums. there are a lot of pro's out there who are more likely to have experience with setting up a bakery.

especially on dan lepard's. (I used to frequent those two and came across famous names)


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If you need knowledge with equipment or design, go to a large restaurant equipment store.  For bakeries, try a bakery equipment store.

Your municipality HAS to provide you with what they want to see in your kitchen. Don't even start untill you know what they want, so if need be, pay them a visit.  Most municipalities will require a grease trap for any commercial kitchen or bakery.  I do only chocolate and pastry, but am required to have one. You will need a hood for a griddle and any other gas fired equipment.  Many municipalities do not require a hood for electric ovens.  A hood is a major expense and most municipalities will require a mechanical engineer's drawings (and stamp) for the shaft and make-up air system design.  I repeat, a mechanical engineer, not an architect.  Hoods are a major expense.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Nancy, my advice to you would be to just start the bakery.  A hot line built from scratch, especially one using gas, will put you back close to $50k.  You can have a simple bakery using an electric oven, a triple sink, a refrigerator, stainless counter, for far less.  Oh, and one induction burner.   (Edit:  also 2  stand mixers and a floor mixer)

During my junior years I did work in a tiny bakery like I just described.  We did baguettes twice a day and there were people lining up out the door just waiting for the baguettes.  We did maybe 2-4 different pastries each day and aways had a strudel, chocolate cake, 2-3 different focaccias, chocolate mousse and creme brulee.  Open six days a week it was probably 60-70 hours of actual production work.  I don't remember what kind of volume we did but it was enough for the owner to stay happy.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm north of Boston, and my estimate for an 8' hood is $12K; the rest of the construction for a 1200 sq ft space is running about $55K.  I am currently running a 4 burner gas range with oven under and a double stack Blodgett gas convection, an 8x10 walk in, a two door reach in freezer, a 20 and a 30 qt hobart and when I first started to look at new space, the town didn't have any plans so I had to start from scratch.  You definitely need to start with your local BOH (some towns will put their requirements online, which is helpful - in my case, they specified that a grease trap had to be a minimum 100# model, and that sealed concrete floors are ok and these two pieces of info were really useful). The fire dept may cite the building code (which for me means that they don't require smoke detectors because they're only required in residences, they're optional for commercial spaces.  A C0 monitor is required though.) 

If you can't get the info you need, start with the State Food Code and call in a restaurant supply dealer to work with you and your architect as others have mentioned.  Go look at and talk to the owners of other food businesses in your town and see what they say, and look around their kitchens. 

Good luck! Keep us posted!


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## nancym108 (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you Everyone for your good advice.  Looks like the hood is the biggest expense so I will try to avoid that if possible, I wonder if I will need it for an electric range or only for a gas range?  I have seen some pretty good deals on 4 burner range with double oven in the $2K range which doesn't seem bad.  I'm also wondering what our local requirements will be for the grease trap, that also seems like a pretty big expense.   I will contact some restaurant or bakery supply dealers to come down and make a proposal for outfitting the kitchen.  I have been getting in as many restaurant & bakery kitchens as possible lately and asking questions. 

When it comes to refrigerated pastry cases, is there any particular brand to avoid or one that's better?  The refrigerated pastry case is a pretty big expense. 

I really like the idea of starting maybe a little simpler - concentrating on the bakery and serving afternoon tea; then as I get my feet under me offering brunch; maybe fancy breakfast on Sundays.  Kuan, the range of bakery products you suggest is about what I had in mind, and I hope to get fancy cake orders too.  The nearest bakery offering quality cakes is 20 miles away. 

Thank you again! - Nance


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes, you will need a hood for electric ranges, most municipalties will want this as even electric ranges will produce grease laden vapours and odours and they need to be removed.

Refrigerated pastry cases:

1) Avoid used at all costs

2) Avoid gravity coil types at all costs

3)Avoid anything made with barficle board (particle board comprised of sawdust and glue), or plywood.  There are a lot of cheap N. American brands that still do this.

4) Double glazed glass is preferred.

5) remote compressors are a bit more expensive, but your front area will be quieter and cooler

6) Test out the sliding doors and shelving system at the store before you buy

Always buy the brand that has a factory rep and a authorized dealer in your area.  This is the single most important piece of advice I can give when buying ANY equipment.


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