# X50Cr15MoV German Steel



## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Does anyone know the difference between this X50Cr15MoV German Steel, and those Japanese made knives?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Japanese knives with that same steel or other steels? It varies quite a bit. Typically Japanese steels are hardened more and they are forged/ ground thinner. These are all generalities only


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Here is one of many interesting internet sites with description of the myriad knife steel:

http://www.bladehq.com/cat--Steel-Types--332


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Yea, I see those German knives I've seen are pretty thick compared to Japanese knives, The German steel on the Cangshan knives are like HRC 58+/-2 on the Rockwell hardness scale, So what does the /-2 mean? Just curious.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Unless I'm mistaken Cangshan is likely to be Chinese made
+/- as the range of uncertainty/variability


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Meaning it could be + or - 2?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If that is what they are claiming, then yes


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Its funny how most other manufactors know what the HCR is on their knives, the 58 they say with the +or - 2, that would make a difference, what do you think?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It is pretty much 56 HRC.   The +2 is wishful thinking.


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

I don't know Benuser, that's why I asked, I don't own one, of course harder stuff is harder to work on, duh..so.. softer then 60 or 61 HRC.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I wonder, could it also point to worse QC/greater batch variability ? Or hardness differences between thicker and thinner parts of the blade


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

I am almost thinking of getting one of those knives just to find out compared to my JCK knives.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

There was a kickstarter Misen last year claimed 58 TO 59 hrc, chinese made. Tested at 51 hrc just saying. If you have money to spend I can recommend all types of stones, accessories, handle upgrades, etc


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The variability in the RC rating is more reflective of the variability of the oven and the process.

The oven is not precisely the same temperature in all parts of the oven all of the time. Knives in different parts of the oven will have somewhat variable temper because of this, even from the same batch. 

These are done in batches and not necessarily all of the same blade stock is in the same batch. The maker usually contracts out the heat treat, except for the larger makers. The operator wants a full oven within the limits of the contracts. Other contracts the heat treatment has may be included with in the oven with different but compatible orders depending on the limits specified in the contract. 

As noted earlier, it more often varies down rather than up. 

When you get into cryo quenching, you can markedly improve the variabilty range, but that's also because blades intended for cryo quenching tend to be specced to tighter tolerances in the heat treatment.

If you like carbon steel, A2 is interesting because it air hardens giving good knife performance for an inexpensive quench. Sharpens nicely too, but is not as popular a steel as it once was.  Has 5% chrome too so it has better than usual rust resistance for a carbon steel.


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Millionsknives, If I had money to spend on knives as stated by you I wouldn't be here asking you or Benuser, lol! I just wanted to know what HRC 58+/-2​, meant, didn't want a lecture on steel, you guys should get together and start making your own knives lol!


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

indiglofish61 said:


> Millionsknives, If I had money to spend on knives as stated by you I wouldn't be here asking you or Benuser, lol! I just wanted to know what HRC 58+/-2 , meant, didn't want a lecture on steel, you guys should get together and start making your own knives lol!


the HRC 58 +/-2 is the hardness tolerance. for a mass produced knife that is a reasonable tolerance for them to hold. I make my own blades because no mass producers can get the combination of handle size, handle shape, blade shape, and blade thickness right for me.

scott


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## indiglofish61 (Nov 13, 2016)

Thanks. Scott Is making knives a hobby of yours? Or do you make em for a certain purpose?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

indiglofish61 said:


> Thanks. Scott Is making knives a hobby of yours? Or do you make em for a certain purpose?


I am retired, so knife making and wood working is what I do when I am not online or watching the tube. I make knives so me, family and friends have something to slice and dice with other than walmart specials.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Benuser said:


> As a simple end-user I would think such a margin is just extravagant.


I agree, but that is the reality of hardening steel in a mass production situation. Knives are placed on a belt, enter a furnace then drop into a quench bath or quench chamber. After quench, the blades will go thru a lower temperature furnace where they are tempered. some blades will get close to an 'ideal' heat treat, so will get a marginal one. Then, to add more variables to the problem, the blades are sharpened by machine where the cutting edge may get corrupted if the abrasives aren't 'fresh' or cooling is inadequate. A good knife maker doing one blade at a time can avoid most of these problems and usually make a blade where the hardness is +/- 1 or less.

scott


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Well to answer the original question, x50cr50mov is a low-grade knife stainless.

Heat treat is a very important subject.  German stainless has popularity amongst the mass producers as it is an easy heat treat, hard to screw up, you get what you get, nothing much you can do to increase its performance. These mass producers use either induction or tunnel ovens, so what they wind up with is fairly consistent, if not great.

But when you buy higher wend steels like vg10 or r2/sg2 the issues become critical.  There are lengthy soak times, double-tempering etc, etc, and very narrow temperature ranges that must be maintained.  The big volume makers like Kai/Shun, Myabi, Tojiro, etc, can't hold the critical processes where they ideally should be.

So Talking VG-10 and SG2/R2 in particular, what these guys offer will never be on par with something from Tanaka or Hattori, HT or grind for that matter, even though you can actually get the latter 2 for less money than a Shun or Myiabi.  Economies of scale do not always make it to the consumer, when selling volume means heavy marketing budgets, deep discounts to volume distributors with high-overhead brick'n mortars, etc, etc, not to mention plain old capitalist compunctions, the likes of which are not so pronounced in craftsman-oriented operations like your typical Japanese small maker.


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## marcelvd (May 22, 2018)

A bit of threat necro here....but
Coming from someone with a lab testing background here.
HRC testing itself is subject to quite a bit of variance. 
The national (ie. primary ) testing laboratories with a given set of hardness standards managed a maximum spread of 1.2 points HRC. The average was lower ofcourse....but still.

+- 2 points is quite good, if the manufacturer actually achieves what he claims.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I believe knives by makers like Ashi Hamono, Takamura, Takeda, Munitoshi, etc, etc, typically get their steels withing a point, 2 at the most. they are not batch-treating, all variables are held very close. And a lot of their knives sell for well under $200 dollars. At least they did, prices have been heading upwards these last 2 years.


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