# Cooking meat in a warming drawer



## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Hi everyone! I’m experimenting a bit with (very) slow cooking in a warming drawer and have a very basic question:
- What is better, to sear the meat on a pan and then cook it in a warming drawer, or vice-versa?
I’m asking this as I’ve seen recipes in both options, but wouldn’t like to screw up and waste a pricyish piece of meat


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Reverse sear is typically the best option regardless of the slow cooking method. 

But, I have to ask....why are you using a warming drawer to cook a piece of meat? Are you trying to get fired?


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Nooo, I’m experimenting at home  The meat cooks pretty tender in the drawer. Takes around 5-6 hours for tenderloin of beef, 3-4 hours for a big chicken breast at 80 degrees C.
Could you elaborate more on reverse sear? I’m not sure I’m getting it right.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Reverse sear is simply cooking the over indirect heat and then finishing it over direct heat (pan sear or flames) to get the sear on the outside.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Thanks for the explanation! Will try it this way.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Mark. said:


> Nooo, I'm experimenting at home  The meat cooks pretty tender in the drawer. Takes around 5-6 hours for tenderloin of beef, 3-4 hours for a big chicken breast at 80 degrees C.
> Could you elaborate more on reverse sear? I'm not sure I'm getting it right.


This doesnt sound particularly food safe.

Safety isn't just about final temeprature killing off the baddies, but also the toxic byproducts the baddies can generate in the time it wasn't at food safe temps.

Sous vide maintains safety because a water bath transfers heat much faster than air as in the warming drawer. 3-4 hours for a chicken breast is just scary, most of that being in the danger zone.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

There is another way I understand produces the most uniform results. You freeze, sear, slow cook, then finish with a torch. This possibly works better seared on the grill, but not sure.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

phatch said:


> This doesnt sound particularly food safe.
> 
> Safety isn't just about final temeprature killing off the baddies, but also the toxic byproducts the baddies can generate in the time it wasn't at food safe temps.
> 
> Sous vide maintains safety because a water bath transfers heat much faster than air as in the warming drawer. 3-4 hours for a chicken breast is just scary, most of that being in the danger zone.


How about blanching for 30sec in boiling water to start?


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

phatch said:


> This doesnt sound particularly food safe.
> 
> Safety isn't just about final temeprature killing off the baddies, but also the toxic byproducts the baddies can generate in the time it wasn't at food safe temps.
> 
> Sous vide maintains safety because a water bath transfers heat much faster than air as in the warming drawer. 3-4 hours for a chicken breast is just scary, most of that being in the danger zone.


Exactly, I did have the same concern, but then I thought why e.g. Miele releases recipe books dedicated to cooking in their warming drawers (which they don't call that anymore - it's Sous Vide drawers now) and get some famous chefs to come up with recipes, post them online, etc? The company and everyone involved would definitely be liable in case anything would happen to any customer in the world and their lawyers definitely consulted them on this.
Thus I researched this to my ability and the conclusion of many scientific articles I've read is that it takes around 4 seconds for all bacteria to die in 160 degrees Fahrenheit and the cooking temperature in the drawer is 176 (or 80 Celsius). Which is done for hours.
So far, after a few attempts, I haven't poisoned anyone and hope not to in the future


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

rick alan said:


> There is another way I understand produces the most uniform results. You freeze, sear, slow cook, then finish with a torch. This possibly works better seared on the grill, but not sure.


That's an interesting idea! Stupid question, but I just need to clarify: is defrosting involved, or you somehow sear a frosted chunk of meat prior to slow cooking it?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

rick alan said:


> How about blanching for 30sec in boiling water to start?


From my understanding with chicken, it's not about surface bacteria only. Rather the whole bird is saturated with problematic life forms arguably from our commercialized raising methods. I'm not aware of research establishing free range/organic as actually safer in that regard.

Pasteurization is a process of time and temperature. In sous vide, chicken pasteurizes at 140 F for 36 minutes measured at the center of the bird (from memory, corrections welcomed). So that happens within the safe food handling time temp window as it takes about 30 minutes to hit that temp and finishes cooking safely during the pasteurization time. There isnt enough time for dangerous growth.

That is not the case in the warming drawer. And as I mentioned, its not just about bacteria presence, but the toxins they produce before you kill them.

As an example, most humans can and do eat C. botulinin freely. The bacteria is harmless in humans with an active gut. But the toxin it produces is deadly if it is in conditions to produce it.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

phatch said:


> From my understanding with chicken, it's not about surface bacteria only. Rather the whole bird is saturated with problematic life forms arguably from our commercialized raising methods. I'm not aware of research establishing free range/organic as actually safer in that regard.
> 
> Pasteurization is a process of time and temperature. In sous vide, chicken pasteurizes at 140 F for 36 minutes measured at the center of the bird (from memory, corrections welcomed). So that happens within the safe food handling time temp window as it takes about 30 minutes to hit that temp and finishes cooking safely during the pasteurization time. There isnt enough time for dangerous growth.
> 
> ...


Ok, now you've got me worried. I'll come back to continue this discussion after searching for more info. Thanks!


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

> Miele releases recipe books dedicated to cooking in their warming drawers


I took look at the recipe book. The recipe for a chicken breast involved searing the breast first for about 3 minutes and then placing it in the drawer for 20 minutes to finish while working on the sauce.

I admit that was the only recipe that I looked at, but it certainly wasn't close to 3-4 hours.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Mark. said:


> That's an interesting idea! Stupid question, but I just need to clarify: is defrosting involved, or you somehow sear a frosted chunk of meat prior to slow cooking it?


It's frozen when you sear it. To work, well perfectly, in a pan you need both sides perfectly flat, your pan also. For the steak pressing between two pieces of 1/4" glass would work great here.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I don't get this thought at all. Who the hey wants to slow-cook beef tenderloin? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't beef tenderloin's alias _"fillet"_? Seriously? Secondly ... what kinda benefits come from slow-cooking chicken? Both of these ideas should just be put away I'm thinking.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

cheflayne said:


> I took look at the recipe book. The recipe for a chicken breast involved searing the breast first for about 3 minutes and then placing it in the drawer for 20 minutes to finish while working on the sauce.
> 
> I admit that was the only recipe that I looked at, but it certainly wasn't close to 3-4 hours.


That was a different recipe I mentioned for the chicken and the time has prolonged a bit in my case as the chicken breast I had at the time was of the size and thickness of almost the whole chicken


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Iceman said:


> I don't get this thought at all. Who the hey wants to slow-cook beef tenderloin? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't beef tenderloin's alias "fillet"? Seriously? Secondly ... what kinda benefits come from slow-cooking chicken? Both of these ideas should just be put away I'm thinking.


Well, I do not agree with you on this - experimenting, looking for different flavours and methods should not be discouraged. Otherwise we'd still be eating raw meat or cook everything on a stick above fire.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Mark. said:


> Well, I do not agree with you on this - experimenting, looking for different flavours and methods should not be discouraged. Otherwise we'd still be eating raw meat or cook everything on a stick above fire.


I think you have the right dance card, but, the wrong dance floor.

Always try to look for new and innovative ways to create new flavors and new methods. However, do so within the bounds of food safety. There are some pros and some very experienced home cooks in here telling you that the warming drawer is not a good idea precisely because of the health risks presented by the food spending such a long time in the temperature danger zone. A person can get very sick, even die, from eating food that was not prepared safely and properly.

If you insist that the food drawer thing is a good idea, which it isn't, at least read up on food safety techniques and the chemistry involved with proper food safety such as acidity and how it impacts bacteria growth and so on. That way you will at least have the knowledge to do the food draw experimentation somewhat safely.

Who knows? You may figure out a way to build a better mousetrap. But, at least you won't get yourself or someone else sick, or worse. 

Cheers!


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## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

I've had salmonella poising twice and both times it was the worst sick I've ever been. Each time it started with bubbles growing in my stomach until everything exploded. For the next 10 hours I was throwing up every 15 minutes and when I was all out of fluids, I dry heaved every 15 minutes. After about 10 hours of that I sat on the pot every half hour until I was completely drained of all waste products. After 24 hours of all this fun, I felt like I was beaten with a stick all over my body for the next two days.. In hind sight I should have went to the hospital. Luckily for me I was in my 30's and at full health and strength. I handled the poultry (first time) and the egg (second time) properly and still got sick..


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

sgsvirgil said:


> I think you have the right dance card, but, the wrong dance floor.
> 
> Always try to look for new and innovative ways to create new flavors and new methods. However, do so within the bounds of food safety. There are some pros and some very experienced home cooks in here telling you that the warming drawer is not a good idea precisely because of the health risks presented by the food spending such a long time in the temperature danger zone. A person can get very sick, even die, from eating food that was not prepared safely and properly.
> 
> ...


Thanks for a well argumented opinion and recommendations - I will definitely keep that in mind! Yet now I'm even more confused on how Miele so lightheartedly promotes cooking in their drawers, if it is a potential health hazard :/


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You should ask Miele... and share the answer. When I googled that product I literally gasped.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

brianshaw said:


> You should ask Miele... and share the answer. When I googled that product I literally gasped.


Already did that, will update the thread with their answer.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Didn't we have a thread like this a long time ago about _"medium-rare chicken"_?


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

Mark. said:


> Thanks for a well argumented opinion and recommendations - I will definitely keep that in mind! Yet now I'm even more confused on how Miele so lightheartedly promotes cooking in their drawers, if it is a potential health hazard :/


Probably because it is a marketing technique to make their product sell more/seem more attractive. I believe the only "cooking" that would be done in the warming drawer is carry over cooking for a finished or nearly finished product. All of the points about food safety are something you should take into consideration, as it reminds me of the rules about cooking or defrosting items in a steam well. To me it seems like the same concept. Just because no one hasn't gotten sick yet doesn't mean it's necessarily a safe method to use.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Strangely enough, got an answer from Miele in 1 day:

“Thank you for getting in touch. To answer your question, yes the warming drawer is safe to cook food in. The cooking temperature we recommend for slow cooking in it is 85˚C, which is the same temperature as most slow cookers, and is a food safe temperature (the “danger zone” is 8˚C- 60˚C ). The FSA recommend cooking meat at 70˚C for 2 minutes, and anything above that temperature for less time. We use it every day here to cook in and we have found no problems at all.”

I somehow don’t feel enlightened after this answer. Any ideas for follow-up questions?


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I'm a little confused about the part of the post with the 70 degrees C for 2 minutes. Other than that, if you are slow cooking for 8 hours in the drawer than I guess it would resemble a crock pot, albeit a expensive one. I guess maybe the problem I have is that it is referred to as a "warming drawer" and really should be named differently if it is primarily being used as a slow cooker. When I think of a warmer or heat lamp I am not picturing something that could cook raw product fully and safety.


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## Mark. (Jun 10, 2019)

Seoul Food said:


> I'm a little confused about the part of the post with the 70 degrees C for 2 minutes. Other than that, if you are slow cooking for 8 hours in the drawer than I guess it would resemble a crock pot, albeit a expensive one. I guess maybe the problem I have is that it is referred to as a "warming drawer" and really should be named differently if it is primarily being used as a slow cooker. When I think of a warmer or heat lamp I am not picturing something that could cook raw product fully and safety.


Yes, that part is confusing, I think they just wanted to prove the point, that anything above 70'C and over 2 minutes kills of the bacteria and is safe.
And yes, "crock drawer" would be a much better name marketing-wise


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Slow cook and warming chamber.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The heat transfer in a slow cooker is wet meaning you bring items up to safe temps quickly. Especially so compared to air.

I


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