# Matching a Knife to a Sharpener. Trisor XV, what quality of knife?



## Surfer (Aug 10, 2018)

I’ve settled on a sharpening system now to pick a knife. I just cook at home and have no commercial experience.

Chefs Choice Trisor XV
Cheap end grain cutting board - Acacia wood
Magnetic knife holder for storage
Hand wash and put away

I understand this sharpener will limit the sharpness achieved to less than someone experienced with stones or even a novice with an Edge Pro. I believe this sharpener will get knives up to a decent factory new sharpness. Maybe just enough to pass the paper test. That’s sharp enough for me and the time savings is well worth it to me.

So now on to the knife question. I understand high end knives will not reach their sharpness potential using a Trisor XV. I have heard it is a pity for a $150 knife to only be sharp enough to shave with. So what level of knife benefits most from this sharpener? Would a VG-10 blade stay sharp significantly longer than a cheap knife? If so does this justify the more expensive knife even though it wont reach its sharpness potential. 

Tojiro DP is where I'm leaning. I could easily save a little money and go with a cheaper knife if its benefits wont be seen with a Trisor XV sharpener. 

If you knew this was the only sharpener you were going to use what knife would you buy to go with it?


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I don't recall for sure but isn't the Tojiro assymetric at the edge?

If so that would not be maintained by the chefs choice system.


----------



## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

The real question here is how often do you sharpen your knives?


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

... and another real question is how sharp must a knife really be to effectively cut food?

I've generally chosen a sharpening scheme based on the knife, not vice versa.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Sharpening is not so much about putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. It is restoring a previous configuration in another place. The new edge has in fact slightly moved in the direction of the spine, where the blade is thicker.
Have a look at the cross-section geometry of a blade. Spine some 2-3mm thick. Edge a few microns. In between, just above the edge, expect 0.2mm. At 5mm from there, a thickness of 0.5mm. At 10mm one of 1mm.
Proper sharpening should involve thinning behind the edge, otherwise performance will rapidly decrease.

Another problem that will raise is in deburring. VG-10 is probably the steel that requires the most time for careful abrading the burr, stone after stone. No short-cut here, or it leaves a heavily damaged edge behind.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The Chef's choice will sharpen asymetrical knives, it's just that the edge itself will become 50/50.

I have no Idea how well they work on VG-10, though regardless of steel the edge will be no where near shaving sharp. Then there is the rapidly thickening edge you'll get with this power sharpener.

Millions recommended the Ken Onion Work Sharp over the trizor-type sharpeners, it's cheaper also, I don't know that one would work any better/worse on VG-10.

How do you feel about carbon rather than stainless? Carbon will work better here, and with the Ken Onion you would get a half decent edge.

The well known chef Ming Tsai typically recommends throw-away serrated knives for the home cook, and even uses them himself. I'd say the results here will be better on the whole than your trizor sharped knives.

Acacia wood sucks for boards, it's full of silica, these cheap end-grain boards also typically fall apart within a year. Better a good oak edge-grain board for the same money or less. Use poly boards if going serrated, to avoid saw dust.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

rick alan said:


> The Chef's choice will sharpen asymetrical knives, it's just that the edge itself will become 50/50.


... which leads to very serious steering and/or wedging issues after a few sharpenings.


----------



## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Surfer said:


> I believe this sharpener will get knives up to a decent factory new sharpness. Maybe just enough to pass the paper test.


You don't give it enough credit. This is an amazing sharpener once you've mastered the techniques.

Coupled with a razor strop, you can get an amazingly keen edge on your knife in less than half the time it takes on the stones.



rick alan said:


> Millions recommended the Ken Onion Work Sharp over the trizor-type sharpeners, it's cheaper also, I don't know that one would work any better/worse on VG-10.


I have the Work Sharp and it's quite painful to use, in that it takes forever to sharpen your knives; much longer than using stones.

The Chef'sChoice works wonderfully on VG-10 and any other steels; save for the powdered steels, which I have yet to try.

The key to using it, like every sharpening method, is practice. Following the included instructions will only give you a workable edge.

With experience, you will be able to refine your techniques to the point where you can achieve amazing sharpness with the Chef'sChoice.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

And how about deburring, edge thickening, geometry?


----------



## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

I do them the traditional way on the stones.

However, those corrections are of no concern to the home users though. I find that they rarely ever get to the point that requires them to do those stuff.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Expect the thickening and steering/wedging issues to appear after a few sharpenings.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

So lets say that with VG-10 you do not deburr on the stones, what kind of edge are you left with then?


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

rick alan said:


> So lets say that with VG-10 you do not deburr on the stones, what kind of edge are you left with then?


A wire edge that will serve you until it comes into contact with the board. Then it breaks off, taking with it a part of the edge. And a new full sharpening can take place.


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Looks like the DP comes 50/50 if that's your taste. 

I think for the most part youd be satisfied with that set up. I don't see you needing to thin behind the edge as fast as benuser 
as I think he has highly refined sense of the cut that appears to matter less to you.

A few years out, then you'd probably like some thinning.


----------



## Surfer (Aug 10, 2018)

Thank you all for the responses and thanks for the vote Pat. Nice to hear from someone who has used the XV and a variety of other sharpeners to compare. 

I have the work sharps pre-Ken Onion edition. I can use it to thin behind the edge when that time eventually comes. Even with this sharpener I quit sharpening my knives. To many other things going on in my life to set up, change belts 3 times, and put away. 20 minutes. The belts being color coded didn't help either as I am color challenged. I could barley pass the paper test, but that is sharp enough for me. 

Pat - You mention technique with the XV, I’m imaging the mechanical grind is highly dependent on pressure and speed of the pull. Is lighter pressure and steady pull the most critical finishing maneuvers? Is there a common pitfall that keeps knives at only a “workable edge” vs sharper. 

Benuser - About the broken burr and wire edge. How much of a dulling effect does this have? If Pat is achieving decent results with the XV and VG-10 could it be that these two complications with this sharpener don’t make the edge less than factory sharp. And is there another metal you would trust to get better results with this machine? 

Rick –My cutting board is 6-year-old and cost $17 new. Is acacia really that bad considering I’m only sharpening to factory sharp. Wife would not go for carbon and I don’t want more knives than needed. It would be unnecessary clutter. Semi stainless will do. Throw away knives? I’ll pass.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Given the burr problems you are likely to encounter with VG-10, I would rather choose a finely grained steel type like a simple carbon steel, or AEB-L if it has to be a stainless one.


----------



## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Surfer said:


> Pat - You mention technique with the XV, I'm imaging the mechanical grind is highly dependent on pressure and speed of the pull. Is lighter pressure and steady pull the most critical finishing maneuvers? Is there a common pitfall that keeps knives at only a "workable edge" vs sharper.


It's hard to say, my techniques change and evolve with time. But basically, it's about varying the lateral angle and the pitch of your knives when you pull them through, as well as the pull speed and how deep you put your knives in the slot.

Mind you, I've been using Chef'sChoice sharpeners for almost 20 years, so I mostly sharpen by the sound and the vibration it makes.

The common pitfall I'd say is pulling your knife through too fast in the beginning and not pulling fast enough during the finishing moves. Also, putting your knife too deep down in the slot and it will cut through the plastic housing as it exits the grinding wheel dulling your freshly sharpened edge in the process.

As for the deburring concern, I forgot to mention that I also use the technique I learned from Murray Carter of drawing the knife across the corner of a cardboard box. This works wonders.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Handle the board situation anyway you like for the moment, but next board no acacia. teak or bamboo. Get an approved wood like oak, maple, walnut, cherry, the cypress boards Japan uses, or a HighSoft rubber board.

A 5 or $10 serrated would likely last you a long time, try one and for cutting the small or soft stuff see how it compares to whatever knife your pulling through the CC. You might prefer it for tomatoes and such, and you can restore them a number of times with a ceramic steel by stropping the flat side at a very shallow angle.


----------



## Surfer (Aug 10, 2018)

Quick update. Please remember I am a novice home cook so take all with a grain of salt.

1- For any other home cooks or non-professionals, if you already have some cheap knives and don’t have a sharpener yet, get a sharpener before you upgrade your knives. The benefit is multifold. You learn on knives that wont mater if you scratch them, and you breathe new life and pleasure into your existing knives without the expense of new knives. 

2 – The level of sharpness I can achieve with the Trizor VX is not as sharp as the Tojiro DP factory sharp. I can take a dull knife and just barely get it to hair shaving sharp in 5 minutes. With more practice I’m sure I can improve upon this. This is plenty sharp for me and sharper than my wife wanted.

3 – It dawned on me a major difference between the professional and the home cook (myself). A pro may do 50 lbs of Onions in a day. I might do 1 lb in a week. Extrapolating out and assuming other tasks, this is 250 times more abuse on a knife. Our sharpening cycles are going to be very different. In the 4 months since this thread started I have not re-sharpened my knives and my friends are still scared of them.

4- The VG10 (Tojiro DP) is easier to sharpen than the very soft 4043 (Kiwi). The 4043 created a bur on the opposite side with each pass. With the VG10, I have no idea if I am breaking the burr off or grinding it down properly, but the result is sharp enough for me. Just barley sharp enough to shave with. Most other cheap knives were easy to sharpen as well but I don’t know the metal. Example Hoffritz

5 – The biggest benefit of the Trizor VX – my wife puts my good knives in the sink, and occasional other abuses. I no longer get upset because it is so easy to re-sharpen. We get along better. Cheap solution to prevent unnecessary negative emotions. 

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread and everyone who contributed to this site in general. I have learned so much form your experiences. 

Sincerely,

Tanner


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Nice to hear back from you Surfer, glad things worked out well.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_WOW _... How did I miss this thread.

I love _Tojiro_ knives and I own and use a _Chef's Choice_ sharpener. A _Tojiro DP_ will sharpen up nicely on an electric sharpener. Just do it right. I think the _Trisor_ has those nice spring guides, and I'm pretty sure it will give you a 15* edge. All you need is uniform pressure. As for burrs ... find an old leather belt and use it as a strop. Draw your sharpened blade across it a coupla times like they do at the barber shop. Or lay it almost flat on the bottom of a nice old-fashioned ceramic coffee cup and draw the blade down on each side. You'll be fine.


----------



## Patch (Dec 27, 2018)

Related to this topic, I'm curious what kind of "steel" is popular. I had used a conventional steel for many years but was never really happy with the results. Two years ago I bought a Messermeister ceramic rod "steel". In addition to re-aligning the edge like a conventional steel, it can hone the blade as well. Getting the angle right takes some practice but once I got that down I've been very happy with the results. I've gone from sharpening my knives every other month to sharpening them maybe once a year.


----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Around here steels aren’t very popular. Like you, I’ve used the traditional steel (ribbed) but never was fully satisfied. The Messermeister ceramic was best I used until I got a F Dick multicut. Expensive but the best steel I ever used. I tend to gently use the multicut followed by the ceramic followed by a smooth steel. Just a couple of light swipes on each. That perks up any of my blades in between stone sharpening.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Even ceramic steels cannot do nearly as well as just a few stropping stokes on a dry or lightly wetted stone. Steels are an expedient for the busy bustling congested professional kitchen, they really have no essential place in the home. I used to "steel" my slicing knife on the radiused edge of a fine Arkansas, until I was finally convinced it was so much better and really no extra trouble to strop on a the flat of a stone. That way you remove the fatigued metal, with the [best] steel you largely just create more fatigued metal with it's narrow point contact. And you will never get as keen an edge. And a ribbed steel would be crazy to use on the Tojiro's VG-10.

For any cheap stainless a 1K stone works fine, for the Tojiro you could use anything from 1-6K. Don't overdo the stropping, especially with the Tojiro, you will certainly pull a wire if you do.


----------



## Patch (Dec 27, 2018)

brianshaw said:


> Around here steels aren't very popular. Like you, I've used the traditional steel (ribbed) but never was fully satisfied. The Messermeister ceramic was best I used until I got a F Dick multicut. Expensive but the best steel I ever used. I tend to gently use the multicut followed by the ceramic followed by a smooth steel. Just a couple of light swipes on each. That perks up any of my blades in between stone sharpening.


F. Dick Multicut... Yikes! You aren't kidding about it being expensive. I hemmed and hawed a long time about the Messermeister. The Multicut will have to wait until I hit the lotto. It would seem, though, that virtually all the Amazon purchasers agree with your assessment. of 75 reviews, 95% five-stars, one single one-star review that complained about the price, and the remainder four-starts. That's pretty positive.



rick alan said:


> Even ceramic steels cannot do nearly as well as just a few stropping stokes on a dry or lightly wetted stone. Steels are an expedient for the busy bustling congested professional kitchen, they really have no essential place in the home. I used to "steel" my slicing knife on the radiused edge of a fine Arkansas, until I was finally convinced it was so much better and really no extra trouble to strop on a the flat of a stone.


I frequently use the Messermeister multiple times when doing what for me is more extensive prep work. I can't see myself using a sharpening stone with that kind of frequency.

I watched a video recently of Gordon Ramsey demonstrating how to filet a salmon for some students. It was interesting to see what seemed a caring and nurturing Ramsey as opposed to the butt head he usually seems on his TV shows. Anyway, he steeled his knife literally after every single cut. He made a big thing out of it being necessary to keep the edge extremely sharp in order to get the clean cuts he was going for. That might be a bit of overkill, but I'd lean more toward that approach than using a stone while trying to cut up a pork shoulder or dice a lot of onions.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You find yourself steeling a lot because your edge is so fatigued by the steeling. Fatigued steel can't hold an edge for long. Your knife is probably so fatigued at the edge that you will likely have to remove considerable metal to restore a decent edge. Once you do, you'll see how very much longer you edge lasts between touch ups. A Tojiro DP should be able to hold a decent edge right through a long day in a pro kitchen.


----------



## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

Pat Pat said:


> It's hard to say, my techniques change and evolve with time. But basically, it's about varying the lateral angle and the pitch of your knives when you pull them through, as well as the pull speed and how deep you put your knives in the slot.
> 
> Mind you, I've been using Chef'sChoice sharpeners for almost 20 years, so I mostly sharpen by the sound and the vibration it makes.
> 
> ...





Pat Pat said:


> It's hard to say, my techniques change and evolve with time. But basically, it's about varying the lateral angle and the pitch of your knives when you pull them through, as well as the pull speed and how deep you put your knives in the slot.
> 
> Mind you, I've been using Chef'sChoice sharpeners for almost 20 years, so I mostly sharpen by the sound and the vibration it makes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

Pat Pat said:


> You don't give it enough credit. This is an amazing sharpener once you've mastered the techniques.
> 
> Coupled with a razor strop, you can get an amazingly keen edge on your knife in less than half the time it takes on the stones.
> 
> ...


Great posts Pat Pat, and a quick hello to everyone (I've just become a new member here).

FWIW, I've recently purchased a Chef's Choice 1520, and I'm quite literally shocked at what a good job it's capable of,,,, when (as Pat Pat states), it's used properly. The honing stage (3-stage machine) is probably the most critical, as well as important stage to master, and once you've mastered the ultra-light pull technique, along with quicker pulls in the honing stage, you truly can get incredible results. I was skeptical at first, especially since I already owned quite a bit of sharpening/honing gear (Norton 4-stone waterstone system/220/1000/4000/8000, various steels including an Idahone ceramic rod, Atoma diamond plates, and a Tormek SuperGrind system, various strops, and ultra-fine film-type sheets (from Lee Valley).
Why did I buy the Chef'sChoice 1520? Well, I've recently been on a new knife binge, and bought roughly 15-20 new knives, plus I already owned another dozen or so,, mostly Zwilling Pro, Wusthof Classic and Classic Ikon, MAC, Shun, Along the way, I found a deal on the 1520 and decided to give it a whirl. I hesitated at first, thinking this system would give me unwanted blade re-curve,,,, and it probably would if used improperly,,,,but the more I used it (mostly to restore some heavily damaged knives I had just inherited), the more I was impressed.

The most seriously damaged knife I inherited was an inexpensive stainless steel Chinese cleaver, that probably cost somewhere between $20.-$40. new. My mother had used it to "chop" some haywire to string up her grape vines. The blade had several long cracks and splits along its' length, and I was simply going to toss it in the garbage. One of the splits was roughly 3/16th" long, and I had to remove the splits by completely re-forming the blade with an axe file. This allowed me to maintain the original curve of the blade. Once "there", I used the same axe-file to remove the bulk of the huge burrs that had developed, then it was on to the CC 1520 for edge rebuild and refinement. It probably took over 50 strokes per side, alternating left to right with each stroke, until a I had a paper-cutting edge, then on to the honing stage. It probably took no more than 2 or 3 "no-pressure/gentle but quick strokes" in the honing stage, then another paper-cut test. Good Lord,,, the smoothness of the paper cut totally shocked me,,,along the entire length of the blade,,,heel to tip. Whether I used a new sheet of copy-paper (somewhat stiff to a degree), or a crumpled up sheet of old newspaper, the cut felt almost razor-like. Now, I can't be certain to what "grit" it's been polished to,,, and frankly I don't care; the bottom line is, that cleaver probably cuts better than it ever has, and it's earned it's place in my knife drawer,,, along with one VERY old Sheffield Steel carving knife that I also inherited. That knife was badly rusted, and couldn't cut through whipped cream, let alone newspaper. I cleaned up the blade faces with a "Rust-Eraser", then re-formed the edge,,,sharpened it on my water-stones. Later, I took it to the CC 1520 for honing, and that knife will now outlive me,,,, a new lease on life despite the grey patina.

That said, I've got to say that a good ceramic honing rod can work wonders with new knives. The feedback you can get when using a very gentle touch (grip, as well as stroke) is superb. I use a 10" Idahone ceramic rod "steel", and I use it almost every time I use some of my new knives, especially the softer steel knives like my Victorinox Rosewood utility knife,,, probably my most frequently used knife. A light honing will do wonders in maintaining that sharp edge, while keeping you away from having to resharpen, and the accompanying removal of metal. I've owned that knife for four months,,, use it several times a day,,, and the edge feels good as new. I'd be surprised if I have to resharpen it more than once a year.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

I see rods as an emergency solution in a hectic pro environment. That being said, there's some serious learning curve involved, and especially deburring with them is far from easy. 
If for some reasons you need rods for touching up between stone sharpening and restoration of the former geometry: the Sieger Long-life is slightly abrasive and will leave a 2-3k finish. 
The abrading of fatigued steel is essential to give the new edge any chance. Rebuilding from fatigued debris will hardly survive a few cuts. 
Used sur place it allows deburring to avoid the creation of a wire edge which is so likely to occur with VG-10.
The Dickoron Micro is a fantastic tool. Forget all you know about grooved steels. Has more to do with a 8k stone you use to remove the very last burr remnants. Get used to both of them with the lightest possible touch, in a peaceful environment, no colleagues, noise, pets or kids. Perhaps it helps in other circumstances as well.


----------

