# i am confused about bread... again



## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

hey all. i am confused again. its an on going thing. 

first, sough dough starters are made up of flour, water, and natural yeasts. you start it and the nfeed it with a sead everyday right? 

and a pre ferment, includes bigas, polish, ect. they are made up of flour, water, commercial yeast, and natural yeasts, right? 

what does crumb mean?

hwat is old dough? for example, when you make a batch of dough on monday, then you save a little of that dough and on the next day or two, throw it into the next das batch of dough being made? if so, when do you add it? at the end, right? 


thanks for that help


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I'll try to answer your questions, I am sure the bread experts on this board will add to it.

*Dough starters are made up of flour, water, and natural yeast. you start it and the feed it everyday right? *

Starter can be made in many different way. You might want to check out the bread discussion on the Baker's Dozen forum. There is lots of information on the subject.

Starters can be made with grapes, like Nancy Silverton's recipe. I have an apple starter recipe. Flour and water with a bit of cumin left on a counter is another way to make your starter.

The poolish is made of yeast, water and flour left to rest for a few hours. Once it had risen and collapsed. You then add water, flour, yeast and salt and proceed with making the bread.

I am sure I am forgetting lots of information, the more experience bakers will add their grain of salt and help you with your questions.

*what does crumb mean? *

Crumb is the inside of the bread, the white part.

*what is old dough? *

Old dough refers to a piece of dough, usually the size of a walnut, that you put aside when you make a bread.

This piece of dough is used to start, starter, for another loaf. For example, in Baking With Julia, Steve Sullivan recipe for Mixed-Starter Bread used a piece of fully risen dough to make the first stage starter. To this he adds a bit of water and flour. Then you make the second stage starter, using the first stage starter plus water and flour. You then proceed to make the final dough, where you will add to the second stage starter water, yeast, flour and salt.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Isaac,

Please visit the following website:

One Loaf Three Ways

This will answer a lot of your questions.

The term "old dough" is just another word for "chef".

Furthermore, I don't know if you made the plunge yet, i mean have you started baking yet?

Who said "Bake first ask questions later"?

I mean a lot of your questions will be resolved by doing it rather than reading about it.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

kimmie,

it is easier said then done. i just got back from externship. i am a student at the CIA as a culinary student. i love baking and pastry along with cooking. it was a very hard deccsion for me to make when i had to figuar out if i was going to school for cooking or baking. i picked cooking. a few months into it, i wanted to swtich to baking and pastry but they said it was to late. 

so i went on externship. i spent the last month working with the artisan bread baker. i loved it to death. i learned a lot. then i came back to school and i would LOVE to practise but we dont have a common kitchen to do so. so it is very hard for me to practise at this point. i am reading a lot but it seems to confuse me more. not good

trest me, i would love to practise.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Seems your calling for breadmaking is loud and clear. It's nice to hear.

Have you read "One Loaf Three Ways" yet. I hope it sheds some light. Don't neglect all our great posts on the subject, on this very forum. KyleW is on a mission and he won't let it go until it's completed, so it seems. We joke a lot and have fun but if you read carefully, a lot of the answers to your questions are right here.

Which books are you reading? You will also find great postings on the subject too, in The Bakers Dozen.

As for practising, is it possible to use your own kitchen, at home? Just start small, one or two loaves at a time.

And good luck to you.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

kimmie,

i would die for a kitchen. i live in a dorm that doesnt have kitchens. we cant have anything electrical. it ***** .

i love to bake bread. i love to hold the flour in my hands and feel it. its wonderfull.

i am just confused. ok, i know how to make bread. i understand the mixing of it, i understand little tricks like the autolyse process. i understand, for the most part, how each ingredent works. i think i have a good understanding of the basics. i am just confused about some terminology. 

i have the following books on bread

1- bread a lone
2- artisan baking across america
3-the village baker
4-flat breads and flavors
5- speical and decoritve breads volume one and two (the cost me wayyyy to much)


the books i want to get are 

1- crust and crumb
2- artisan baking
3- bread builders

so here is what i am confused one. and yes, i did read the info you sent. it was interesting. 

1- what does pre ferment mean? it is a classifcation for anything that has yeast in it like a biga, spong, and poolish?

2- i understand what a sough dough start is... is a chef the same thing? 

3- i know a poolish is equal parts in weight of flour and water and then a litle yeast

4 i know a biga is 50 to 60 percent watrer of the flours total weight. 

i know a sponge is flour water and yeast, even thought i really dont understand it nor know the proportion of each. 

and i still have no clue what an old dough is. i have enevr heard of this. is it just a sourdough starts? i have no clue. 


i understand how to bake bread... at least the foundation of it. when i worked with the artisan bread chef, it was great. i loved it. we made awesome bread. 

i am trying to teach myself though, which creates a problem. when i get out of school, i am going to work at a bakery...hopefully one that bakes artisan bread. 

i watch the bread vidoes a lot and try to read al ot as well. i printed out all of the bread topics that are of interest. i am really trying to learn. not having a ktichen really ***** too. 

so please, i am not trying to be a pain in the butt. i am very eager to learn. i just made a not so thoughtfull dession about cooking and baking .

thank you so much for your help.


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## pastrychef_den (Jun 30, 2001)

Isaac,

I think the best person to find at the CIA is Chef Richard Coppedge. He's the person who teaches the bread baking class there. If I am not mistaken, all culinary students take bread baking at the CE building right after externship. I don't know if they changed the curriculum already. I graduated a couple of years back from the baking and pastry program. Chef Behrendt, if I am not mistaken, also teaches bread baking...

I would suggest volunteering to assist the chefs for CE Bread Baking classes. You'll get first hand information from the Chef Instrucotr and will also get to meet great people in the industry. You're not going to get paid but in return you will learn a lot and you don't have to pay to take the class as well. Good deal huh? Good luck. 

Good luck!!!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear Isaac,

I'm soooooo sorry you don't have a kitchen. But you have the great kitchens of the CIA!! And it really sounds like you've got the "bread bug".

1 & 3 both being great choices, I would start with #3. Is Artisan Baking different than Artisan Baking of America?

As far as your questions go, I'll take #2: what's a chef.

Let me start by saying that it is not sourdough starter. Rather, it's a egg-sized piece of dough taken from a proofed batch of dough. That egg-sized piece of dough is reserved to serve as the 'chef' or 'starter' for the next baking.

I hope that this explanation sheds some light.

BTW, you just received very sound advice from *pastrychef_den *.



[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

pastrychef_den:

chef coppedge is great... just a very busy man. i am going to try to hook uo with chef gumple soon. i just got back from externship and yes, you are right, we do get some bread and pastry classes but it is by no means enough. you know how it is...you go into a seven day class and then they spit you out for the next 7 day class. 

yesterday, i did get ahold of a CE book in hopes to be able to sit in on a few bread classes that either chef coppedge or chef gumple teach. hopefully they will greet my idea with open arms. some of the chefs can be sticklers sometime. 

i am hoping to also join some baking new letter groups like the guild. 

as of now, i am trying to read as much as possible. i am going to try to figuar out a time in which i can use a kitchen at the soom but they have strict policies with that. just can go in and cook and bake anymore. 


kimmie:

thank you for your help. there is just a lot of termenology i am not really confadent about and it seems like every book i turn to gives me a diffrent defanition and it confuses me more. 

i would love to take advantgous of the kitchen here on my off time but its not as easy it is seems. they do have strict policies about that. i will check into it soon though.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Issac I'm totally self-taught. Trust me your doing the right thing by reading as much as you can. Yes you do need to get your hands on experience but reading and understanding the steps and prinipals is half the battle in baking. 

When you do get in the kitchen you should be able to fly past the rest of the group in your ablities. Your learning great questions to discuss in class, don't get frustrated it will all come......


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

thats my thoughts too w. debord. i love to read books about anything. it a real addiction... good for me.. bad for my pocket book . 

baking bread is awesome.... such a great feeling. i miss being at the hotel and baking bread. it was an awesome experiance that really opened up my eyes. 

i just hate the confusion about some of the terms that are thrown around the bakery. i try looking them up and then i start to have a clear understanding of what something means and then i look in another bread book and the definition is totaly diffrent. then i am confused. go figuar. 

i am not really frusterated just annoyed at the fact that there cant be a clear defanition of simple terms.


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## pastrychef_den (Jun 30, 2001)

Isaac,

I almost forgot Chef Tom Gumpel. He's a great Baker. He was in a bread team that won a gold medal for the US a couple of years ago. 

I did volunteer once in a cake decorating class by Betty Van Norstrand. After that instance, she asked me to assist her a couple more times and she would teach me the new trends in cake decorating on the side. We became friends though. She even encouraged me to call her when I have cake decorating problems, which I did a couple of times. If they don't take you in the first time, don't hesitate to ask some other time. Maybe you can ask them who would be able to help you since you yearn for knowledge and you're doing because you love to make breads. I would go to one of the ladies in charge of the CE classes and ask them if they'll take you in the CE Bread Baking classes. I think one good opportunity is to volunteer in Amy Scherber's Class. She owns Amy's breads in NY. I had a classmate who volunteered to assist her in her classes once and he was very happy that he did that. He said, It's worth the sacrifice. 

Keep us posted.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

pastry chef: 


i totally plan on doing that. i am hoping that i can either sit in on a class or actually partisapate. i would rather not work for the chef and be a student aid. they dont get to do much other then the dishes. i am hoping to get together with chef gumple this week to talk with him. 


thanks again


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## katherine (Aug 12, 2000)

They've taught you so many facts, but what you need is to get a feel for making bread. Dough is a living thing. You can use fresh yeast, make a poolish, make sourdough starter from potato water (the usual way) or other food, including grapes. There are different techniques, different consistencies of dough, and different end products, but it's still bread dough. This is all something you'll get an understanding of after you start doing it.

Is it possible for you to get a part time job working in a bakery a few days a week?


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

katherine,

hello there. i would love to get a job at a bakery while i am going to school. i live in hyde park, ny and there is not to much here really. i also dont own a car, which kinda hurts. when i got back to school from externship, i tried getting a job at the bakery that we have here on campus but it is more of a drag for the chef to hire a culinary student that has little back ground in baking. so he said no. 

i understand how to make bread. i understand what is going on with the dough from the time it is mixed to the time it comes out of the oven. i know what to look for as well as the feel. 

i am just hung up on some termenology that is thrown around. i used to have an understanding of the terms that are confusing me until i read books and then they say that its something diffrent, i am not sure if i am making since . 

i have never heard of a starter made out of apples or grapes. would you just make your starter like normal and then add some grapes or apples? grapes would be great becasue they have all that natrual yeasts on them. i bet fresh grapes (that have been just picked) are much better then store bought grapes. 

can you leave a sough dough starter outside, covered, in hopes that it would attract wild yeasts? 

thank you for your help


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

kimmie,

i am going to see if i can buy that book tomarrow at the book store on campus. i think i saw it there. cross our crumbs. he he 

so, basically after you extract some of the juices from the grapes, you would just move them to the bottom of the container? 

can u make a sour dough starter or a pre ferment that has alcohol instead of water in it?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Cross our crumbs









That's pretty funny Isaac.

On a more serious note, the La Brea method uses whole grapes wrapped into a piece of cheesecloth. You just bash them a little bit (you do not extract the juices) and then move them to the bottom of your container.

There is another method where you only use the juice of the grapes. I think that method is described in Crust & Crumb but don't quote me on that. It's the Reinhart method.

With respect to your final question, I'm sorry, I have never heard of that before. I can't tell you if it's done or not. Why would want alcohol instead of water?

P.S.: I take it you received my pm.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

kimmie,

yes, i did . did u get mine?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Don't think you're the only one who is confused about bread Isaac. I've read abotu the autolyse process three times today and I still don't understand how I could apply this principle to different type of bread.


Since we're on starter again, coud someone please tell me what apples are considered "tart"? 


Thanks!


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

iza,

i can help you on the autolyse. we did a lot of that at the hotel over my internship and i just watched a video on it today in the library.

there are two three ways you can do this method. you can take yoour flour and water and mix it together only until it is incorperated...like two minutes. it will look like a shaggy mass. then let it rest anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes. this will increase your gluten devlopment and give you more of an oven spring. also, it will be a lighter loaf apposed to a denser, heavier loaf. then after time has passed, mix on low and add your sour dough starter and yeast. after a few minutes, kick it to med high and then throw in your salt

that is one way to do it.

the other way is to combine your flour, water, and sour dough starter and then just mix until incorperated. just like the first way. after time has passed, mix on low and add your yeast. then kick to med high and throw in your salt

the third method, and i think the best method is to take your flour, water, yeast (that has been mixed in your water (fresh yeast)) and sour dough starter and mix just till incorperated. wait for the 5 to 30 minutes then mix on low, then kick to med high speed and throw in the salt.

how do you distinguish the time needed? well, in the production kitchen, we only had 5 minutes to let it sit and autoloyse. but at home, let it sit for 30 minutes.

let me tell you... the diffrence is AWESOME. i couldnt beleieve it. it was wonderfull

i am in love with the autolyse mixing method.

you can use it in ANY recipe. good luck. any questions, u can email me at [email protected]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Not quite, Isaac. You will find specific answers to this great question in Breads from La Brea Bakery. Get the book from your library (if they have it) or purchase it.

In short, it starts with a starter culture. What's that? Nothing more is necessary than flour and water which attract wild yeasts and beneficial bacterial. The grapes are added as an abundant source of these wonderful flora.

Here's a quote right out of La Brea:

The process continues on and on until you technically build the starter, days 10 through 14.

I found this book illuminating.

You also asked:
Hope it helps a little but study the book!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Alcohol is a by-product of the fermentation that creates the starter. Anytime you see a seperation in a starter it is likely that the liquid is alcohol. Peter Reinhart refers to it as Hootch and mostly suggests you discard it. I would think that alcohol, especially beer, would be better added to a dough than to a starter. 

As to the grapes the the La Brea starter uses, the Crust and Crumb starter uses organic raisins, variations on a theme 

In The Bread Builders, Alan Scott uses nothing but flour and water.


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## katherine (Aug 12, 2000)

I have read that, owing to the constant dampness (and thus naturally-occurring yeasts) in the air, starter can be made in San Francisco without yeast, but elsewhere you would need to add it to start properly. I've never tried to make starter without adding yeast.

Iza- 
"Tart" apples are sour ones, either slightly underripe and crisp or some type which is tangy even when ripe.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Katherine, Frank & Ernest humbly disagree  I have been playing with wild yeast for the last couple of months in the confines of my NYC apartment. Nary a microgram of commercial yeast involved. I do know that you cannot create _TRUE_ San Francisco sourdough any place but San Francisco. The flavor and characteristics of naturally occurring yeasts are unique to their geography. Thus, San Francisco is the only place in the universe you can create San Francisco sourdough. I guess Frank & Ernest are New York City Slicker Sourdoughs 

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Got it Isaac. Thank you.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Thanks for your answer on the apple question Katherine. Would Granny Smith be consider tart? 

Autolyse. Lets say I am making naan. The Baking With Julia recipe. Everything, yeast, water flour is mixed at once. How then could I apply this method? Would I mix everything but the yeast and a little bit of water to dissolve it? Put it aside and let it autolyse itself for 30 minutes and then add the yeast and salt and then let the dough rise for 2 hours?

I need practical demonstration to understand this process. As we say in French I am quick to understand you just have to give lots of explanation.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

_AUTOLYSE:_ The benefits are more noticeable with wheat breads and those breads with highly porous interiors.

And yes Iza, Granny Smiths are considered to be tart apples.

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

iza

i have never done it with naan but you certainly can. does the recipe call for salt? it should if it doesnt.

anyway... if it has salt, then add your four, water, and yeast and just mix... it will look like a saggy mass,. then leave it along with 10-30 minutes. you will notice a lot of gluten forming. after time has gone by, slowly mix it and then after a few minutes, mix on high or med high and then add your salt.

if it doesnt have salt in it, then mix everythng together till just incorperated.. leave it a lone for the due time, and then mix and low, and then med high or high

i hope this helps. 

in artisan baking across america, they have a page on the autolyse method.

i think bread alone does too.

good luck... any questions, u can certainly get a hold of me.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Yes the naan has salt in it. You add it after mixing the water and yeast with 50% of the flour. You knead for a minute then add the salt and add the rest of the flour. Then let the dough rise etc.

I'll have to read this all slowly and try to get it all to sink in. I guess I am kind of weary to play with the alchemy of bread. I want to be sure to have the correct procedure before doing it.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

iza,

ok, lets use an example.

100 % flour
60% water
2% yeast, fresh
2%salt

mix your yeat and water together. pour into mixer. add your flour. start on speed 2--what ever slow speed is. mix for like 1 to 2 minutes just until incorperated. turn off mixer. it really will look like a shaggy mass. pull a little peice apart and check the gluten. now, walk away from your mixer and read a book. come back in about 30 minutes. check gluten. you will notice a great improvment. now, mix on low for about 3 minutes and then turn to hi or med high for 4 minutes and throw in your salt now. 

i hope this helped.

your not really messing with the recipe. the autplyse is something that was invented, i think in the 70's. it has been used for a while now and it really works. just try it. u have nothing to loose.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Thanks Isaac I'll give it a try and will let you know.


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