# How can we help?



## cape chef

Every few months I see an incredible amount of people asking about changing careers to hospitality/Food service/restuarant ETC.

Although it can become redundent answering the same question 25 times a year , I feel compelled to help.

What are the top 5 reasons you career changers what to enter the world of cooking?
What specificly can we offer you?

I need the help from this community to support this thread
cc


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## anneke

1. Love of food ("let me count the ways..")
2. The need to do what brings us the most satisfaction in life
3. Feelin' a little crazy
4. The knowledge that I can sustain myself through my studies and early/leaner years
5. The support of my spouse
6. Vision.

Regarding the 'how can we help' question, CC you help a lot, as does Wendy and all of you who have been in the industry for a while, and who can paint a REALISTIC portrait of what goes on in your world. It can be a frustrating journey at times, especially when trying to decide wether or not to take the plunge. Thank God I have overcome that hurdle! But this is where vision comes in. It might be interesting for our Cheftalk mentors to talk about their own vision (and that which may have obstructed theirs).


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## athenaeus

This is serious discussion and very interesting.

I have been there 6 years ago when I decided that I wanted to become a cook. 
I ve been working since the age of 17 when my father and I had our first dissagreement about what shall I do in MY life...
So I started working for years (about 8 years ) while I was studying, in restaurants practically everywhere in the world, always in the kitchen. I was a second rate assistant, washing dishes at the beginning and afterwards since I showed a "talent" and althought I love food preparation I ended up in pastries...Funny because I do not eat pastries , only in special occasions.
Maybe this was a signal that I didn't have any future in the business that I ignored!
I mentioned the above to show that I didn't have any illusions about the profession of the Cook.

After obtaining my second degree I decided to enroll a culinary school.
I wanted to become a cook and if possible a Chef for the following reasons.

I though and I still believe that being a chef is something very creative.
Also by your creations you spread joy in other people. I wanted BADLY to see joy in other people eyes after tasting MY food!

The culinary Arts are about Civilization and since I have studied civilization I thought that this was the best field to show off my abilities!

Last but not least it was my ego! I felt that being a chef would let my Ego grow as much as I really wanted but I didn't dare in another profession. 

Let's be honest , in our days Chefs are VIPs! Think about a Chef who has studied Law! ... This was my image then and I was partialy wrong.
I had four reasons but very strong ones!

But things came different in life after graduating the school and for reasons that doesn't matter here I just couldn't work in the kitchen on a regular basis.
Kitchen is hard and need strength not only physical but mental and psychological as well.

I have to tell you though what dissapointed me most in the professional kitchen: The lack of manners, the shoutings and above all the lack of deep knowledge and the fact that most of the times I was feelling that the Captain of our ship was inadequate to cope with the difficulties of a sudden storm! 
The majority of "Chefs" cannot pass a blackbox test... Sorry for being umpleasant but this is my point of view.

Maybe it's just me that I need to have blind trust to people I work with!
I have to admit that participating in this Forum " I met" educated professionals who have humor , kindness and knowledge, so maybe it was just me who couldn't have a clear picture while I was sweating over a dough, being shouted for nothing!
On the other hand I have met people that let's say just make me smile with sympathy...very superficial situations and cases!

What people expect by professionals when they are asking their opinion? 

IF they have already enrolled the culinary school , all they need is encouragment. I think people when they are in there they cannot tolerate critisism, they need ENCOURAGMENT, somebody to tell them that they made the right choice , I think that this is human.

Its been some years now and I think that I can watch things from a distance. 

I think that if professional in this Forum what to help people ( I won't mention names , it's cape chef and mbrown and momoreg for sure, but there are many many more) all they have to do is just be there and be themselves!
People have intuition and deep in their heart they can tell if someone is worth trusty. Just their presence gives a good example to other people!



Athenaeus

Tossed by the waves but never sinks.


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## layjo

Hello everybody! I am not a career changer yet , simply because I have been in this field since I first started working. I do agree that there are alot of career changers coming into this field. I find that working in the kitchen you have to have a certain discipline and gradual understanding of the daily processes you have to engage in. I have seen alot of cooks come and go in the place I have worked. And in a sence I was assuming that maybe they had a certain vision of what a cook does, but were introduced, as they continued to work, to other aspect of the job that they did not favor. And my personal attitude towards the same job situations, was in a positive mode. I would constantly think to myself "I have a desire to be sucessful in this field, so I need to do what ever is generaly required in order to make my career goal a reality." I haven't given up yet!, and sofar, I don't plan on giving up either ....."I can do it!, you can do it!, we can do it!" .....I say that alot too!:chef:


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## w.debord

I want to encourage and inspire 'newbies' because I adore being a pastry chef, but I think it's totally wrong to 'cheerlead' people into a false sense of the realities of this business. I understand people come here looking for help and reasurance. People e-mail me asking for help desiding. I REALLY REALLY take that seriously!

Yes there are wonderful chefs out there, but that's not the MAJORITY. The majority of the head chefs out there are not mentally equiped to lead people. Many of them reached thier position because they were the last one standing when all the quiting and firing happens. MANY, many of them are so driven by their own ego that it's hard for anyone else to find air in their kitchens.


Everyone wants to be a star. I do, you bet! But the reality is I have a better change getting struck by lightening and so will all the 'newbies'.

I don't want to be nice to you, I want you to get pissed off. I'm a female in a MALE dominated industry where I'm certain the girls work twice as hard as MOST (but not all) the guys and are passed over for the head chef position ALWAYS. Even when in a position of leadership their tons of small minded males that really honestly can't handle taking dirrections from a female. It's a dog eat dog enviroment! I hate that fact!

I try to rise above it, I try to inspire and lead in spight of my frustrations. But it's hard, **** hard.

I'm not a complete moron, I think if I had the chance when I was younger I could have entered almost (almost) any other career. Over the holidays I will sit next to my 'well to do' brother-in-law who will leacture me that "you know, theres alot easier ways to make a living". Although he means well, it deeply saddens me. I'm certain I'm every bit as bright as him, and I'm certain god gave me a gift (of artistic ability), yet he's right (and I don't fight back). 
I still hold on...........yes, I'm a dreamer, too.


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## cape chef

Thats perfectly put!!!

and it's true, many of the woman chefs I have worked with over the years have to fight twice as hard for the same recongnition as there male peer.
Many male chefs carry a huge ego around,but it is really because they are intimidated or feel insecure.

cc


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## elsie

It's the food. That is the biggest reason I am changing careers now. I don't necessarily want the stardom of being a world-class chef (although that might be nice ), but it is mostly about the food itself. I just one day realized that being a customer or being an admired home cook wasn't good enough anymore. I want to see good food, touch it, taste it, smell it, work with it every day. I realize that the kitchen is a hard, brutal place to work and I don't even know yet if I am cut out for it, but I do know that if I don't at least give this a try now, I will forever regret it. I also know that I can end up in a different part of this industry altogether, and that will still be better than what I am doing now, which has absolutely zero connection to the food industry. 

What you guys can to do help is just continue to be here listening to us and asking our questions, being honest about the realities of this lifestyle, and encouraging us. I have loved hearing all of your stories about the frustrations and excitements of this career, and I want in even more.

Elsie


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## elsie

I mean "answering" our questions, of course!!


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## cjssjc

I'll be starting school in the Spring, and your sentiments are mine exactly. Very well stated. 

Also, working in an office stinks. 

- cjssjc


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## w.debord

cjssjc, "working in an office stinks" yes so does standing on your feet in a small space for 10 hours straight, in a 90 degree plus kitchen with sweet running in your eyes while your handling thin sheets of chocolate and the guy standing next to you washing dishes doesn't have CLUE what deordant or a toothbrush are!

A chair, air conditioning and no unbelievably foul oder is like a vacation. The chance to drive thru a hamburger joint for lunch on my lap, total freedom! Being able to ask for a personal day or a sick day off is a mind blowing luxury.

Sorry but it's true...

Sorry I'll stop getting off track.


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## suzanne

It made me so sad to read Wendy's posts -- not because she's wrong -- (_she's right to be mad and tired and bitter_ -- but because I know exactly how she feels. She has touched on so many important issues:
-- the inhumanity of the working conditions;
-- the hostility women face (not that men don't, but believe me, we DO face more that lingers longer);
-- the "reward systems" that no one with the slightest intelligence can figure out, because they have nothing to do with brains, or aptitude, or any "normal" kind of merit;
-- the BIG differences between chefs who succeed because they lead and inspire, and those who succeed because they just plain outlast the competition;
and more -- that rarely if ever get discussed in the culinary schools. *IT IS OUR DUTY TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR LIVES TO THIS INDUSTRY KNOW ABOUT ALL THAT.

BUT IT IS ALSO OUR DUTY TO LET THEM KNOW WHY WE ARE ALL HERE*. To go back to the original question raised by Cape Chef, my reasons are:
1. Of all the other "careers" I've had, this is the only one that uses EVERY part of my brain: I need math, languages, interpersonal skills, planning, organization, the ability to teach, creativity, all 5 of my senses -- just about every thing I've learned (and enjoyed);
2. There is always something new to learn, whether it is a new ingredient, technique, flavor combination, person I might never meet otherwise, culture ... the list is endless;
3. If we really get it right, we can make people happy at the same time we feel a sense of real accomplishment.
4. I get to stick my hands in the middle of piles of gooey stuff and squish squish squish and _ PLAY WITH MY  FOOD!!!!!!!_

Seriously, this is a roller-coaster business in so many ways, and it's a relief to find others to commune with about it. Keep the faith, all!!!!


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## cape chef

Suzanne and W.Debord, I wish I had the same command of the written word you to have.

Your posts are so powerful and carry incredible merit.
I was thinking of the sweat running down my brow as wendy put it. Using all five of our sences, what other proffesion can offer that?

Something very key to this thread that took in a different direction but should be addressed first is "How can we help eachother?)

You know what they say..you have to love yourself before you can love another.

being a male chef for just over 20 years I have probably seen and heard it all. believe me there is a lot of bull**** that goes on in kitchens and there are also kitchens that are like theater and just ausome to be a part of. But the fact is that 75% percent (I'm guessing) of the male population in the back of the house still lives in the prehistoric age (sp?) when it comes to dealing with there female counter part, That is very sad because so much negitive energy is wasted and so much positive energy is lost.

If male chefs can deflate there chests for a moment and "LISTEN" to what is being said..they may be hope.
when I read some of the previous posts I see 3 things that make up for very powerful packages
1) Education
2) Passion
3) willingness
what more can someone ask for in a person or employee.

There are some very bright people on these forums doing some wondeful things, We should not judge by gender,but embrace as peers
cc


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## w.debord

Again some truth (at least as I see it), I come here because I can comunicate with many other wonderful chefs. I reach out everywhere I go in every kitchen I enter. I seek a community with people who are like me. I haven't found this at any job. Head chefs are offended when you talk food with them, they love to lecture, but they rarely open themselfs up to really talk about food (you all know why) and take in from others.

Reading posts at this site is like watching foodtv, this is a fantasy look into our profession. At the most you'll meet one or two people in a big kitchen who you can talk food with and share your passion. Co-workers are almost always there just for the pay check. This is all they know, their unhappy with the hours and conditions but they stay, because this IS all they know.

I can talk about gender differences but as I start to age I fear what discrimination I'll face with that issue too. At forty you begin to be the oldest one in the kitchen. There's a few people out there at 50 but only in a head chef/pastry chef positions. No one notices this? Where do we dissapear to? 

The senior workers in many industrys are driven out but in the food biz, we dissapear much younger more quitely too so it seems.

How can we help each other? I beat this subject into the ground as often as I can. I really believe that nothing will ever get better until we work more standard work weeks. I can show you management site that straight out list 50 hours in a min. for head chefs, period. The live style is the hardest thing, wages would be next down my list.

If we could just be able to ask for a day off and recieve that occasionally (after weeks of pushing thru the busy season) that would raise your enthusism. To be able to attend some important personal events in your families life would make a huge difference in attitute for me. Being able to schedule a doctors apt. and make it with-out rescheduling multi. times....

Sometimes I feel so isolated from the rest of the world. I miss everything important. I work every holiday and rush to be with family then rush to get home, then rush to wake up to rush to work. 

I can't comprehend why a 40 hour week isn't a possiblity. Hire more workers and spread out the hours. It only covers their position better....Heck they complain about paying OT, THEN STAFF THE PLACE!

The upside, their is one too! I think Suzanne covered it perfectly.


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## greg

While I agree with some points that have been brought up here, I can't help but say that some are nonsense (to me, anyways). I don't think that a blanket statement that the majority of chefs are not emotionally equipped to lead their staffs to be even close to the truth. Sure, there are some losers out there, but if one person has had the bad luck to work for lots of them, that doesn't mean it's a truth. As far as women working harder than most of the men: BULL!! I would say the same to someone stating that men work harder than women. As long as anybody (men and women both) has an attitude that one or the other is better, nothing will be equal, ever. If your career has bred frustration and bitterness, then I have only one suggestion: please don't spread it.


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## suzanne

Sorry Greg, but not only are most chefs unequipped to lead, most managers in every field are unequipped. Oh, they may have the technical skills -- that's what got them up there in the first place. But no one has made sure that they know the human side of managing people. Remember, whatever work is being done, it is PEOPLE for the most part who do it (robots excepted) and PEOPLE who manage them. Remember the Peter Principle: "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence." (Laurence Peter, 1969)

As for the gender issue: you have some truth, but little understanding. No one said anything about being "better." But that is best left for another time.

Joy and fulfillment are part of our life; frustration and bitterness are, too; get used to their expression. That's what we're trying to tell you.


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## thirteendog

I just read this whole thread and I must say I am impressed. 
I am a female cook who is currently in culinary school after 4 years of working in the business. I must tell you I have a LOT of career changers and kids just out of high school (REALLY) in my class. They have a vision of ideal working conditions and they all think this school will guarantee them a great job after we graduate. Many of them don't even want to work in restaraunts or catering or any real kitchen setting. They want to be food critics, food stylists, all those types of jobs that involve food, but not the grueling back of the house type stuff. I honestly belive they are setting themselves up for a huge dissapointment. I have tried to listen to their complaints about cleanup, the instructors, the facilities, etc, etc. It makes me crazy to see people spending 30 grand on something they have no prior knowledge of other than watching TV. I keep telling them they will not get those jobs without SOME actual work in the kitchens. They think I'm full of beans and I just say that because all I want to be is a chef. I don't want to own a restaraunt, I don't want to work for Emeril Lagasse, I don't want to sit in some sterile enviornment talking about food. I want the heat, the stress, the thrill, the rush, the weeds, the great days when everyone comes together, the food blowing people's minds.
Am I crazy? You bet, but I know what I am in for and I want more.
I wish I could find a way to help these misguided souls. I have tried to tell them what it's really like in this biz and they dismiss me, saying I'm trying to scare them or that I'm being superior because I have experience and they don't. SO I let them go along with this dream they have. I know some of them will do well out there, and some won't. It seems to me that all I can do is focus on my own stuff and then tear it up in the real world after graduation. 
Thirteendog:chef:


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## anneke

What a great attitude ThirteenDog, I wish there were more of you out there. When I start my business I hope to staff my kitchen with people like you who believe as I do that it's about getting dirty and enjoying the thrill of the creation. 

To get back to some of the concerns rightfully expressed above: I now understand what the reality is and I always prepare for the worse, no matter where I go. I think women like Wendy have perhaps been pioneers, allowing the next generation to have a slightly eastier time in the industry. (thanks sista!)

I've pretty much always been the only woman in the kitchen where I've worked. Maybe it's my personality but I find that I haven't really been discriminated upon. Although working part-time, I can't really assess what my possibilities for advancement are. Being a woman for me has been a blessing; I have a kind of 'ring of protection' if you will. The boys respect me, and they know that I understand everything that comes out of their mouths, no matter how crude. Executive chefs are especially respectful. From a business perspective, they want to show off the fact that they have women in the kitchen. They seem to believe that it gives them a cachet of modernity. It's getting pretty trendy to be a chick!  

On the other hand, I count my blessings every day. I know how hard it can be for some women. I believe this is one of the reasons why it is so important to pick your first job carefully. Aim for prestige and distinction. I'm not saying there aren't any misogynists in four star restaurants, but it does gives you options in the future. Not to mention that it's pretty easy to get in if you have a grasp of the basics.

One thing I really like about Cheftalk is that it usually takes a while to determine a member's gender. Sadly since Mr Bond came along, that has changed and from what I've been reading on other threads, it has caused a few problems(sorry Jamesy, I know you meant well) . My point is that this anonymity has allowed many of us to be heard without being judged or be percieved to be expressing opinions that seem tainted.

As a woman mentally working on her business plan every day, I pay very close attention to what Wendy has to say, and also what Greg and Suzanne and the others have said also. There are changes that need to made in this industry, and it's up to us to do it. It's easier to start on the right foot than to make changes later. That's why I listen carefully. There are some gross inefficiencies going on, and kichen staffs accross the world are paying for everything from the chefs' managerial inexperience to their deceit. There are good managers/exec.chefs out there and I don't hear enough of those stories on cheftalk. Good business practices should be heard. They should occupy much more space on this site.

In closing I just wanted to point out something that made me chuckle (un rire jaune). Wendy's last post (re: hours, inability to hold a doctor's appointment etc) reminds me of my common complaints when I was a consultant. If I were to convert my salary to an hourly rate, I was making next to nothing! So you see? The same problems carry over in so many other industries; it's sad really. But despite everything, like Suzanne said, at least now I get to play with my food! And that my friends, is everything!


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## w.debord

How do we help? Is there anything we all can agree on, that would be helpful for wanttobes?


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## helgendasz

Hi all, 

Here is a genuine Want-to-Be's point of view:

This thread started out as a questions: how can we help? and whereas some may think this strayed off the subject slightly, I think it is right on! This is what I wanted to hear about, this is what I "hoped" to find more information about when digging into the subject, and it would not have happened without the people that make up this forum. The fact that you are taking us/everyone seriously and being very open about good and bad parts of this profession is something I could never read about in a cookery book or see on any cookery program on TV, and unless I in my boring office job coincedentally fell over this page, I would not have had any other chance to learn what I have learned in this forum.

After reading this I have also gained a new appreciation for my office job, the benefits and the quietness, however this is not enough for me anymore and a change has to come.

I know once my decision has been made I will go for it 100%, but before I make such a commitment I want to know as much about it as possible. I have one other option for education open, and will look at this option with the same critical mind. 

On another occasion, when I had to make a similar decision I went to a chinese restaurant with a friend and talked things through. Ironically the message in my fortune cookie said:
"know what you want, or you'll have to like what you get". 

I would go for the "know what you want"-part any time. And thanks to all of you who are letting us wannabees peek into your world from a safe distance, I belive that you are passing on knowledge and preparation for anyone entering this business. You are making us aware of all aspects you can think of as important, and I find this discussion more encouraging than discouraging. Maybe in the end this way of educating the newcomers may result in more of the "right" people entering the profession.

So to answer your question: How can we help? You just have!

Thank you all very much!

H. (a 25 year old female carreer changer)


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## w.debord

Thanks Helgendasz for the response.

I don't want to sound like a bitter person, I'm not. I also don't want to battle over words written and not written, with my friends here. 

(I'm a little confused why more people aren't participating in this thread?) I don't want to monpololize the conversation either, but it looks like I have and here I continue....


What I am: frustrated....actually I should have written that as FRUSTRATED!!! HURT to some extent, SAD REALLY SAD that things haven't improved since the time I accidentally entered this bus. 20 some years ago. 

My family having owned a bakery that turned into a catering business supports me by telling me how crazy this business is, "why don't you get a easier job and make more money?" (I got that yesterday for the millionth time). My best freind just finished a 2 year degree to be a medical tech. Her starting pay is $20.00 per hour. She's found out that the temps. in the business make $30.00 per hour and she's going that way now.

I think long and hard about these words. 

My husband is so happy I'm not working right now. He told me how depresed/bored he was being alone every weekend while I was working.

I turned 40 this summer. Funny thing is I'm just like everyone else, I TOO am having a mid-life crisis (I never thought I'd go there, that's what happens to everyone else). I see my life as half over and the best half is yet to come. SO I want to make my life worth living (if that makes sense?)!! Although I can't picture myself retiring ever (I'd be too bored) I still have to prepare finacially incase of illness etc...so I can't run wrecklessly into another wrong job.

I'd like to follow everyones advice and get out of the kitchen to make easier money, have weekends and holidays off, I really wish that was in me. But I keep thinking....how do I lead the rest of my life so I have no regrets? How do I make my life forfilling for me?

Truth is I really truely love being a pastry chef. Unlike my spouse who lives for vacation. I would be just as happy vacationing working in a bakery than any other "fun" thing I can think of. There isn't anything I'd rather be doing. My husband thinks I'm crazy to bring my work home and study all night in cookbooks, rack my head for ideas for work. I don't see it as work, the cookbooks are my novels my brain food, coming up with new ideas is a creative outlet.

So the "trick" for me now is to find that "happy place" in my career path. Clue my family in on the fact that I can't leave this business. I'd love to make them all happy. But it wouldn't make me happy and I need (or want) to be selffish, after all this is MY LIFE.

I wish I could wave a magic wand and make sense of an industry that makes little sense (in my head at least). So I speak up, I try to make a tiny wave (I wish I had the power to rock the boat and throw some people in the bus. over board into some cold water, but I can't). I guess in the end some will see me as a bitter old lady...I hope you'll see that I tried to make some small thing better for someone else (that's my goal).


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## suzanne

Dear Wendy:

I know exactly how you feel, and I've only been doing this for 6 years.

It is up to ALL OF US, female, male, exec chef (especially) or commis, to speak up. We need to speak up for more humane working conditions; more equitable treatment of all workers, based on trust and ability; better training for all -- all the usual stuff. I will freely admit that doing just that got me fired from my last job. Non, je ne regrette rien. (I regret nothing, for the non-Piaf folks.) More than all that, we need to demonstrate the fairness and openness we seek, whenever we are in a position to do so. Anyone who owns and/or runs a business should treat others as we wish to be treated (gee, that sounds like the Golden Rule, doesn't it?). And don't believe the naysayers who swear that running a business that way is foolish: "socially-responsible" companies can be as profitable as, if not more than, those that take advantage. After all, in an industry with 200% turnover, anything that engenders worker loyalty is a HUGE money-saver.

Now I'm the one who's rambling. But I sincerely believe that if we all try to stop the bad stuff, eventually we will. (Maybe just not in our lifetime, sigh...)


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## anneke

Wendy you're a real fighter. You don't settle and that's good. Some people can get comfortable in a job waiting for the next paycheck or the next vacation, but people like you and I have too much - I don't know if it's passion, creativity, nervous energy or maybe complete BS - to settle that way.

I've gone through the exact same crisis as you have. Do yourself a favour and don't call it a mid-life crisis because it something that can happen at any stage in life. Calling it mid-life just makes it ten times more depressing. 

I had such a crisis, first when I entered University, then when I switched and did my graduate studies in a different field, then when I switched from being an analyst to a broker, to a consultant, and finally when I decided to go to cooking school. Anyone with a brain would say that this is a cycle and I'm just going to go on through life never fully comitting to anything. I say I'm just trying to find my zen; I listen to the 'little voice inside my head' (call me Sybil). 

You too are seeking your zen. It's doubly frustrating when everyone around you seems so passive, isn't it? I can understand that. Don't let them influence you Wendy. You have a wealth of knowlege and experience which you can tap into once you have find what really makes you happy. Be careful not to set yourself up for failure either; sometimes when you've been hurt as we both have, we have a tendency to see obstacles even when opportunities are staring us right in the face.

If this doesn't belong on this thread, then I'm sorry. The question was how can we help, and frankly I'm finding this thread to be very therapeutic.


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## cjssjc

In a previous post, W DeBord responded to me:

<< cjssjc, "working in an office stinks" yes so does standing on your feet in a small space for 10 hours straight, in a 90 degree plus kitchen with sweet running in your eyes while your handling thin sheets of chocolate and the guy standing next to you washing dishes doesn't have CLUE what deordant or a toothbrush are!

A chair, air conditioning and no unbelievably foul oder is like a vacation. The chance to drive thru a hamburger joint for lunch on my lap, total freedom! Being able to ask for a personal day or a sick day off is a mind blowing luxury. >>

Maybe the grass is always greener, but what you call a "vacation", I call a mind-numbing experience in which mediocrity truly rises to the top. If you've ever read Dilbert, believe me - it's all true.

But I do know what you're saying. It IS easy, it IS a luxury. But it is also boring - incredibly boring...and incredibly trivial when you think of what's really important in life. People get mad if a report is late, or a dealine is missed - it's all so silly, frankly.

Most important, it is "doing something", but not doing something I love. Cooking's got soul...there's no soul where I am right now, I can tell you that! 

Anyway, my question...at some point, won't an influx of career-changers - people who have worked "luxury" jobs - only help the industry? Won't there be enough people that won't stand for the kind of conditions that are often described on this website? I have heard, at least in my neck of the woods, that many restaurants ARE changing - good benefits, days off, fair treatment...it may be slow, but I have heard it's happening.

Is that a fallacy? Is that just something cooking schools tell prospective students?

- cjssjc


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## suzanne

Hey, it's pretty mind-numbing to make the same ice creams or fish dishes or whatever day after day after day, too. Scut work is scut work, no matter where you do it. The Peter Principle is certainly in operation in foodservice, just as it is elsewhere. And my cubbyhole in my last kitchen was covered with copies of Dilbert. 

Okay, at least we have the hope that someday the chef will change the menu, or we will find a new job where the food is exciting again so that we can put up with the mishigoss.

And yes, restaurants ARE changing. Very slowly, and not that many, but yes, they are. I believe it's more a function of economics: management is realizing that it's more cost-effective to keep an employee by providing a slightly better environment, than it is to hire a new one even at a cheaper rate. Will it ever get to where it should be? Not in our lifetime, I fear. But I'll put up with it the way it is, and try to change it if I can. Because there's no other life for me.


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## holydiver

I totally agree with Wendy the trouble with the biz is that you do not have to have any kind of certification or knowledge to open a restaurant hence you get a lot of really lost people fly by night operations etc. A lot of people open up a restaurant just to turn a buck the total unprofessional conduct and ineptness I have seen is still shocking after 14 years.For every Charlie Trotter or Emeril there are hundreds of pointy haired bosses like in Dilbert that is why so many restaurants fail. There is just this near slavery attitude that I have seen over and over this industry is still in the dark ages in many respects it is very disheartening and hurtful to be treated in such a way and to feel like it will never change and if you try to change the status quo you are looked upon like you are a troublemaker rocking the boat. I hope all the newbies realize all this and do try to help change the industry and try to bring it to be considered an actual profession instead of something you do till you find a real job. Do not get me wrong I love to cook and have a lot of passion I just would love for the industry to be professional like say the medical field.


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## w.debord

I think everyone really hopes the new influx of the career changers (with their maturity) will influence this business. 
The only really 'new thing' I see is MORE newbies going to school. In the past it was a much smaller percent of our workers that were schooled in the culinary arts. There still is a high amount of culinary students that don't continue in the field long term. But a handful more do each year. It's that handful that will move up into the ownership role, and then there might be some real change. 

Real change starts at the top with the owners. Managers and chefs either work with-in the owners boundrys or get booted out.

Where I live (Chicago) I still think things are on the down swing in the biz. Just as the divide grows between the wealthy and the poor. I see this industry as a paralle, with the "middle class" dividing more and more into 'haves' and 'have nots', ie. a decrease in the middle class.

I've only worked in 'average' places basicly (certainly never in a starred restaurant), upscale caterering and private country clubs. What I've noticed is a loss of English speaking white males in the kitchen and a complete switch to all Spanish speaking and Foreign citizen staffs. 

I draw the conclusion that as long as someone is willing to work in crazy situations this downward trend (into uneducated workers from poorer counties) will continue. I was very worried about the open borders President Bush was giving to Vicente Fox. Although I know we need people to fill spaces in our employement (in fact we depend on them)....the only way life will improve for the American workers is when all foriegn workers are equal (wealthy, healthy and educated) and stand up for their "rights' too. Then we won't have as many people willing to take out job for half the pay.

My stupid two cents, for what it's worth....


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## cjssjc

Points well taken...I appreciate your insight these topics. 

I know others have said it before, but you guys are great. This website is such a great resource for anyone looking to get into the biz. 

- cjssjc


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## fodigger

Wendy, you are right to say that it starts w/ the owners. Long before I opened my restaurant 21/2 yrs ago I promised myself to treat my employees fairly and honestly. We pay a better than average wage and benefits. Make sure everyone has 2 days off in a row and paid vacations. Sure this effects my bottom line and ultimately my families pocketbook but that is the way I want to run my business. For that i expect my employees to show up on time and ready to work. If they need a special day off let me know well in advance not the week you want it. Don't steal from me. Do the work as you have been taught. If you have an idea to improve a product show me I might not use your idea but I'll tell you why if i don't. Get along w/ your peers if you have a problem work it out don't let it become a bigger problem that takes me away from other duties. We are all adults. And don't complain when I want to send you to a school to improve your skills or knowledge be it for a week or a couple hrs. learn what I sent you there to learn participate in the program. It's costing me alot of money so don't waste the time given to you. Finally, give me an hrs. work for an hrs. pay. Don't assume just because I spend alot of time in the kitchen that I'll do your work. I don't mind helping out but "Plan your work~Work your plan".
Just my nickle


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## w.debord

Oh boy do I understand you fodigger! You really see things differently when it's your dime wasting while someone takes too long of a breather. 


Do you think that many other owners are angry with the issues presented by you. The 'frustrations' of lazy or stealing employees? Is this a legit factor that holds owners back from concedeing more incentives to employees? And can you address why owners refuse to consider 40 hour work weeks?


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## fodigger

I think that alot of owners find frustration w/ those issues. I know for alot of owners it's a money thing. It's my a** on the line, my house my credit etc. Also benefits are EXPENSIVE especially if your are a small employer. Alot of employees don't look at the whole picture either. They just see the money rolling in. They forget about leases, morgages,workers comp,(have they had a claim that raised their experiance module?) insuranse licenses, permits,payroll including the employers portion of ssi, etc...etc.
I think that some owners work employees more than 40 hrs out of habit and tradition. I've had alot of jobs where I worked 70 -80 hrs per week but most of my friends now are working around 50. I also think that the 40 hr work week is a myth unless you work a union house that dictates it. I have alot of friends that work out of the business and they don't work 40 hrs either.(they are all in some sort of mgmt. postion though) All of my full time employees work 40 hrs sometimes a little more when we are really busy. I do this because I feel that you get more out of the employee when they are worked to death.

Also to clarify alittle other than 2 employees in 21/2 yrs I've had very little problems w/ emploees issues. Tghose are just what I expect for what they receive.


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## billyg60

Well, I have been in the Restaurant biz for 16 years now.Cooking for 9 of those. I have just recently decided to get a degree at the local Community College. In these classes are apprentices from the Sea Island Company (a nice resort here in SE Coastal Georgia). Some of the stories they have told me about are just awful.(low pay , long hours, bosses who just don't give a ****---but hey, we all gota start somewhere.)

I just got finished reading "Kitchen Confidential--Adventures in the Culinary Underbelly" by Anthony Bourdain.

I would tell someone to read this book as it will give you an idea of how 75% of "Professional Kitchens" are really like. (I can tell you that up untill 3-4 years ago that this is how my kitchen was, and to an extent---except for drug use and harrassing of female employees---it still is.)

With that said, if you have read the book, you know what I am talking about.Most people just wouldn't hack it in the reall world of food production in a "Professional Kitchen"(what an oxymouron (sp?)--)

I have this friend who is in investments. He can cook some nice food for parties and himself when he has the time. I saw him in a bar one night and he expressed to me that he would love to work in the kitchen at my place. Well I only told him I would cook him something to eat if he really wanted to see what it was like.So he came in on a Wed night(traditionally a slow night for us) and let him shadow me for a while.

Prep work done, I made one of the specials for him and some for the waitstaff.(Grilled lamb chops that had been rubbed with mint,rosemarry,dijon mustard--roasted garlic and bacon mashed potatos with dill---and broc with bernaise sauce)

This restaurant seats 125 or so and lately we have been averaging 130 a night on Wed. I forget the real number we did that night,but it wasnt over 100.(slow season fo us and all)
It was just me and my Sous (who is also my younger brother) behind the line, and we let "our little helper" sautee some veggies and pasta dishes.

Half way through the night, here he is about to fall out from heat exhaustion and looking like a wet rat. He just could not believe that this was a slow night. He was a trouper though.He hung in while we slung insults back and forth in the kitchen(between dishwashers, salad prep,expeditor and the two of us)

After work , we sat at the bar and had a few cold beers.He thanked me for the opp. and said he was just stuned at all the work that goes into a typical night in the kitchen(he hasn't asked to come back yet  

I give this little story just to show someone that this life is not all "glam and ritz" as you see on TV and read im Mags. It takes hard work ,long hours, constant babysitting, conflict resolution, and hurting feet ankles and knees. All of this for low pay(mostly)

One gets into this buisness because they work well with their hands and love the food they produce. They are willing to put up with all the bullsh** that goes with a "Professional Kitchen"
because they love what they do.

As for me, I love this field. My grandfather had a bakery and some of my earliest memories are getting picked up from school by my mom and going to the bakery. Once there I would get to pick something out of the walkin to drink (usually a nice cold glass of milk) and my favorite apple turnover that he would have heated up for me.

I was destined to be in this buisness.I only got into it in high school cause I needed money. I do not think there is anything else on this earth that I would rather do as a profession(even if I won Lotto, I would still be cooking in a kitchen--it would just be my own)


I say read the book listed above and ask yourself if you really want to be in a profession such as ours. That book brought back some fond memories, and some I would rather forget.

Billy


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## davidpatrick

This is my first post so please be gentle!

After reading this thread and going back to it's title, I would like to offer my perspective on why I'm changing careers and how you can help.

At the age of 32 I have just completed my 10th year in the high tech industry. And yes, you could say that there are definate luxeries to the job. But after flying near 1,000,000 miles in the past four years, there are also the downsides. It's not the dishwasher next to you that doesn't know about personal hygene, it's the airline passenger you sit next to for six hours on your coast to coast all night flight. Holidays and vacations are really not breaks from work. In the "tech biz" you work every waking moment. We won't even mention the no-sleep 5 day trips to Tokyo on Memorial Day and the Fourth of July - oh I guess I just did. 

But I don't think that we should try to match up careers to see who's job is more difficult. If it wasn't difficult it wouldn't be called a job. It would be called "fun time" or "take-it-easy-time". I think that it's all in your attitude and your vision for your profession. My number one reason for leaving high tech is that I lost my vision. Second runner up would be my loss of passion. I looked around me and those people who I once wanted to be....I didn't respect them anymore. 

Now here is an interesting twist to my story. I worked in the Rest. biz for just over 6 years before I started into High Tech. My family runs a restaraunt and a catering business. When I left Ohio to run around the country with high-tech, my mom said "You'll be back" and yes she was right -----> AGAIN! 

Well here it is and yes I'm heading back to school. I'm attending the C.I.A. in Hyde Park starting in January. Why you ask? It's simple...it's about what I love to do. Yes I'm crazy to love the back of the house. Hard work, heat, sweat - I'm up for it. Been there, done that, love it. 

I know that working in the biz is hard. **** it's darn near impossible some times. But what drives me is that night when you beat your alltime best at putting up covers. It's when the awesome review comes in and you were the one that cooked the food. It's when someone pokes their head into the kitchen and says "That was an awesome meal". It's the looks on people faces in the dining room when they take that first bite.

Realize it folks. We are the future of this business. And everytime I hear "it's a horrible rotten place, but you have to pay your dues"....bullllllllll - don't do it. Pay your dues somewhere else. Have vision for your profession. 

So how can you help.... here is how I think you can help me. Stand up and make changes! That's right...not just answer posts on a message board. Go and do something that changes one little piece of your business that you don't like. And then come back here and post your successes and failures in doing so. 

That way as I make my way thru culinary training, I'll learn how people have been able to effectively change the business. What is working and what is not. We all need to know how the changes can impact the bottom line. We need to know if changes improve the performance. We need to know if changes really do make good change. 

Just my two cents......David Patrick


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## thirteendog

Amen brothers! May I add this small insight................
People who really cook for a living can be very territorial and competitive by nature. Not all, but MANY. I am one of those people. We are the politically incorrect, the hostile, the crazy, the demanding, the tough and the ones with our hearts tied to our jobs. I am very possesive of my secret life in a professional kitchen and don't care to share that joy that I have being on 'the inside' with people that just plain have NO idea what's in store. YES many career changers have been very very sucessful and satisfied with this business. 
YES you do need to spend SOME time paying dues, but know the difference between dues and slavery, and when to get out.
YES this is a hard job, but I think we try to keep 'wannabe's" out because we don't want to share the air of mystery and intrigue that surrounds the real inside of the restaraunt business. It makes us feel a little cooler and hipper than our friends and neighbors, and face it, most of us were never cool or hip until we started slinging food and making servers cry. We gained approval from those already in the kitchen and they didn't make it easy.. now we're the sophomores, juniors, and seniors and we want to haze the freshmen a little, too... scare them a little to make them sure this is what we want cause there's no room for crybabies or lazy people in a good kitchen.
Sorry.. I got a little passionate there.. hope ya'll get my point.


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## shroomgirl

David Patrick~ what a wonderful idea!!! I love it.
I'm working on school gardens and curriculum for sustainable ag and local healthy foods being offered to our kids. Lining up grants, I talked to the Dept of Ag and Slow Foods today on available grants....I found a couple of certified teachers that organically farm and a University to develop curriculums. There are going to be two MAJOR fundraisers this year to raise monies for local projects....
There are several other tangents I'm working on but they all revolve around local foods.


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## cape chef

david,
Welcome to cheftalk.
I wish you great success back in the "biz"

Your point is well takin,get off our duffs and make a change.

If we are going to talk the talk we have to walk the walk.
cc


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## w.debord

There is no room for cry babies in the kitchen, that's why I take it online. It's the only place TO take it. 

The people HERE are the standing up talking about issues with the hopes of bettering kitchens. This is the first step, identify the problems. You have to understand one of the realities of change is resistance. Their are tons of chefs and managers out there trying to make things better! But as Suzanne will tell you it's a dangerous road to travel. The movers and the shakers get fired. Real change can only happen from the person handing out the pay checks. 

Owners don't want employees to rock their boats. They have obsticles too, which we appreciate. BUT I still believe the only way to make any quick improvements comes from organizing. So long as we can't agree among ourselfs they'll never be any wide spread changes. It goes back to one owner at a time to insitute change.

Every newbie who works for a couple years then bails is much like the illegal worker. They do nothing to increase professional salarys. They help owners, not workers. They provide cheap labor and work at wages skilled older workers can't afford to compete with.


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## fodigger

DeBord - I totally disagree w/ the notion that owners are some how profiting by the use of "newbies". While I'm all for bringing new people into my organization it is very expensive to me. I've read in some industry mags that the average cost of training a new employee ranges in the $20,000.00 range not counting the cost of benefits which are another 12 - 20,000.00 per yr. Even if you take 25% of the training costs multiplied by say even 5 employees a yr that's 25 grand alone and while that maynot be alot of money to some, it is to me since it comes directly out of my pocket. Not only that but you have the potential of lost business. Since there is always a learning curve for every new employee there is the potential to send out something not quite up to par. And while you hope that the service staff would catch it, things have a way of slipping by. So say Mr. Jones is looking for a new place to hold all his business lunches as he is tired of the run around at the old place. He figures that since your main business is fine dining it would given him an personal view of how you do business. Out comes the sub-par entree and Mr. Jones gets it. So not only do you lose his business but potentially alot more when he starts talking to his friends about his bad experiance.
Furthermore as an owner we are exposed to alot of risk financially when we hire a new employee. For example: I hire Chef Johnson who comes w/ wonderful recommendations and references unknown to me even though I checked his references the guy's a slimeball. He lost his last couple of jobs because he can't keep he's hands to himself. I find out and fire the guy and my Female cook files suit not only on him but me also for not providing a safe work enviroment my insurance co. decides to settle and I'm lucky that my insurance only doubles and that I don't get canceled. No insurance and I'm out of business and the 65 people that I employ are out on the streets also. So no I don't believe it is beneficial to owners having newbie turnover. At least not to the owners that know 5 + 5 = 10.

Sorry, maybe I should have put this under the rant thread


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## mike laughlin

As a potential career changer I have to admit:
O.K. I am good and scared about just about everthing i've read about the restaurant business. I've read the threads, read the books like "Kitchen Confidential" and yea, I'm scared you know what ...less at times. I have a dozen good reasons why I want to make a career change, the key word is passion. We are only here for a finite amount of time so if every day is passionless, yet profitable for you and that is enough stick to what you are doing. For me, I just want to cook, period. I have read alot of cooking related pieces and one common theme i have gathered is that there is no way of being truly happy in this business if one does not love food, in every way, which I do. The question I have is what is the best way to begin to learn about this gigantic industry without offending people who have paid their dues. The last thing I want, is to run into this business and start burning bridges during my baby years in this industry. Yet, I also don't want to be taken advantage of just because I have no refined skills in the kitchen. It's the great paradox of beginning in any new field, however I have an advantage by asking all of you kind people. First, where do we start? Second, what should we look out for? Hopefully I can figure out the rest!


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## thirteendog

As far as I can see this is the best way to indoctrine yourself in a kitchen. Mind you it took me screwing up and NOT doing any of these things, getting fired a few times, getting in a few ego wars and the occasional screaming mtach. I have learned from my mistakes.. maybe other people could add suggestions, but here is my little theory on getting a good start and not pissing every one else off.. I was told these things and dismissed them and got burned hard ......
1. Show up every day regardless of bleeding, bruising, coughing, vomiting, concussion, whatever. If you are really suffering, your chef/boss will probably send you home, but it will be noted as your being a 'trouper'. I had an infected molar removed last summer and was at work before the novocaine wore off. The saute guy was nice enough to wipe the blood off my face periodically. They sent me home, without drama.
2. LISTEN. This is my sore spot. I am a horrible listener. But I have improved a lot.
3. Accept compliments by saying "thank you" and nothing else. No dissertation on how clever little you devised that the soup needed a little more salt than the recipe calls for, just say thanks and move on.
4. Don't disagree with the person who pays you. If they ask you to do something, do it. Ask questions if you must.. ask why, ask how, but don't tell them they're wrong about something. Most likely they are FAR more advanced a cook than you or have they're own reasons for doing things a certain way. Trust them.

These were my biggest issues, I have acted like a know it all princess and nearly got my head ripped off for it. I'm happier now that I just shut up and does as I'm told. Makes life WAY more livable.


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## chefjoed

Hey uguys,

I've been interested in cooking since the days of my first real baking experience. I made an apple crisp at the age of 8, and then on, i was hooked. However, I was heading into college for eduction and or business. I've been in the restaurant field for almost 8 years now (i'm almost 22), and I love how it works.

Working with the customers, seeing those people eating my food, laughing, enjoying, smiling, walking away satisfied. Though i'm going to graduate in the Restaurant/Hospitality degree from BGSU (not much of a program, but highly regarded among the business community) I am going to attend JWU in RI. 

Funny thing is i was just fired from my job at a nationwide bakery/cafe chain. As a simple staff member, my manager told me that I had the drive/discipline/desire and thoughts to achieve my goal as chef/owner. I'm picky in my staff, and food, and sanitation, and preparation. I'm an a**#$Q% to work with, but It's all out of love. I want my team to be the best, the most passionate, and beautiful as well. I hope that these traits will transcript into a meaningful career as a chef.:chef:


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## suzanne

And the word is: *PASSION*! That is, after all we say, at the bottom of why we switch into this business, or get into it in the first place, or keep coming back to it. Someone probably already brought up that it is a "calling" for us -- an ineluctable force in whose face we are powerless!

_(Sometimes I wonder if somebody should just put some lithium into family meal, to smooth out our manic-depressive-like highs and lows. Re-reading previous posts shows a bit of bi-polarity in us as a group, don't you think?)_


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## thirteendog

well put everyone.
I am happy to see that the people who are here that happen to be career changers are as dedicated as myself and others before me. Welcome.. it will be a pleasure to have hot lamb fat splattered on my tender wrists by any one of you.. 
(anyone who hasn't yet been burned or even disfigured by screeching hot lamb fat must know that is the sincerest welcome I can give  )


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## marzipan

While I have not yet been burned with hot lamb fat, will the 1 x 3" burn scan on my wrist, from an oven, or the numerous droplet splatter burns from the soup-and-salad special from my waitressing days, do?


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## nick.shu

heh, all it takes is a thick skin and the right response.

vis a vis:

The owner of the "establishment" where i work was a wee bit cranky the other day (currently iam transitioning from one gig to another and these are my final days at the old place), so as well as attending the final exam of 5 1/2 yrs cookery school, im actually looking after 3 jobs as well (phew quite a balancing act i tell you!)

Something or other went wrong on his side and he stormed in and said to me:"whats this, what is going on, are you stupid or something?"

i said :" im sorry, what did you say?"

he said:" are you stupid or something!"

i said:" or something!"

he said:"huh?"

i showed him a letter from Mensa offering me membership. i then said, im not stupid.


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## w.debord

Thanks for correcting me Fodigger, of course your right (I sure missed that one!).


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## dud meridian

Hi everyone. This is my first post after reading a hundred or so in these boards. This thread interests me in particular, but what would help me greatly is a frank description of the monetary realities and lifestyle aspects of changing careers into the cooking business. What does a graduate from the CIA or some similar school make at his first job? Does it vary greatly by City? Lets say it is NY. Or Chicago. or a smaller town like Madison WI, as representative examples of different markets. What is the CIA graduate's first job and what are the duties? The hours? The pay? Assuming average/above average performance and initiative what are the duties/hours/pay like five years after? Ten years after? Some of these answers will vary greatly from place to place and may change with the economy, but please don't let that stop you from responding to this email. I need some answers, and this seems to be a good source for some of them. 

Quick background: I am currently a lawyer two years out of school who is incredibly disillusioned with his career choice. Cooking as a career is becoming more and more of a temptation for me, but I have ZERO experience in a professional kitchen -- the closest I got was as a waiter assistant for a month at the Edgewater restaurant in Madison WI (I was 19, and yes, I wa fired). Since then I have grown up a lot, gone to law school, and worked for two years, all the while truly growing to LOVE food and its preparation, but only in the confines of my home kitchen. I worry that may not make the translation into professional kitchen. I've read Kitchen Confidential and reviewed this message board, but want some more input on the realities of making a switch from where I am to the cooking world. Mainly though I need specific info referenced in my first paragraph. Sorry for the length, rambling nature and possible grammatical errors of this message (I have to worry about grammar all day long and happy to to just write without worry at night!). Thanks in advance for any responses!


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