# Looking for advice on picking up my first Sujihiki



## ruscal

hey guys

I've never owned a Sujihiki

and i'd like to

but i have no idea which one to pick

i've been looking at the following knives which i can buy online

anyone know any of these? care to share an opinion? help guide me in a positive direction?

i put them in price order. but cost isn't a significant issue for me...

Suisin High-Carbon Steel Sujihiki - € 84.00

Fujiwara FKM Stainless Sujihiki 270mm - $87.00

Togiharu Inox Steel Sujihiki - €92.23

Togiharu Virgin Carbon Steel Sujihiki - €139.40

Kikuichi Elite Carbon Sujihiki 270mm - $152.00

Kikuichi Performance TKC Sujihiki 270mm - $191.96

Misono 440 Molybdenum Sujihiki - $243.00

Sugimoto Suuji-hiki 270mm - $259.95

Suisin Special Inox Suijihiki - $275.00

Bu-Rei-Zen (Blazen) Slicer - Sujihiki - 10-3/4 in. (270mm) - $309.65

Misono UX10 Sujihiki - $348.00
[h2] [/h2]


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## boar_d_laze

You may not be familiar with a "suji" _per se_, but really it's just a Japanese name for what's very much an ordinary European slicer profile.

You've got a very disparate group there. Is there anything in particular you like or don't like about knives in general or slicers in particular that would help me help you narrow your choices.

For instance, if you could articulate what you like about Japanese cutlery...

Do you have a good gyuto (chef's)? If not, that should be the first knife on which you spend serious change.

How well do you sharpen? Sharpening makes all the difference in the world. Don't waste your money on a high-zoot knife you can't keep sharp. By the way, your second big purchase -- before a suji -- should be a good sharpening kit.

How much are you willing to spend. If you're willing to spend a lot, what do you expect for the extra money?

How are you planning to use the knife?

How big is your board? Do you have room for a long suji?

You've got several carbon (i.e., non-stainless) knives in your list. Really? That opens things up quite a bit.

As it happens I recently bought a Konosuke HD 300mm suji. It's more expensive than the stainless model but has the same profile and handle. Even at 300mm it's a very light knife. The profile is excellent, best slicer I've ever used, and puts it at the outer limits of agility and versatility. I'm chopping with it like I would with a gyuto and trimming like I would with a petty. At the moment, it's my favorite knife. Konosuke's stainless sujis are very much on par -- except for the edge qualities which are typical Swedish stainless. If you're open to carbon, you might want to seriously consider Konosuke's White #2 instead of the stainless.

The Misono UX-10 is something of an idea whose time has past. The profile is very low which makes the knife less versatile unless you have a truly good grip, and they're not the easiest knives to sharpen.

On the other hand, you have a few carbons in your list, but not the Misono Sweden -- which is absolutely outstanding. Everything else being equal (it never is though), the Sweden is my first recommendation for people who want a modern, carbon, yo-suji (western handle). With its comfortable handle, engraved dragon, edge taking and holding, it's just that little bit better than the Kikuichi carbon.

You might also want to consider one of the carbon Sabatiers. K-Sab and Thiers-Issard each sell a number of excellent slicers.

Oops. I'm going on and on about carbon knives and I don't even know if you can live with one. They don't demand much extra care, but when they need attention they need it RIGHT NOW. Accordingly, they're not for everybody.

BDL


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## ruscal

hi there BDL

thanks for the info, and the questions. i'll try to explain a bit more about my situation....

first off, i'm a home cook. i work long hours during the week so i only really get to cook anything interesting that might require a decent amount of prep at the weekend. i haven't honed my knife skills in a professional kitchen, so i don't really know a great deal about what i do and don't like about kitchen knives yet.

i am trying to learn about proper knife skills. so i'm trying to put together a decent set of knives which i can learn with, and learn from, and which will grow with me as i get better.

so far i own the following knives:

Togiharu G-1 Petty 150mm

Tojiro DP Santoku 170mm

Mac Superior bread 270mm

and am waiting for these 2 knives to clear customs:

MAC Pro Paring 80mm

Masamoto VG Gyuto 240mm

all the knives above are stainless. in general i think that suits me better than carbon. but if carbon is considered better suited to a suji than stainless then i don't mind having a carbon suji.

my sharpening skills are a work in progress. i can put a decent edge on a knife, but the bevel that i create on the knife edge is not uniform throughout the length of the blade. i have a 1000 grit global whetstone which is a decent size - 210mm x 70mm. i found the Tojiro DP fractionally easier to sharpen than the Togiharu G-1, but both are significantly easier to sharpen than my old global knives.

i have an end grain knife block which is a good size i think. its 360mm (front to back) x 400mm (left to right) and 60mm thick. it says "Olive & Thyme" on the underside - i picked it up cheap from TK Maxx. if i'm cutting meat i generally put a smaller plastic board (240mm x 340mm) on top of it for hygiene reasons.

for the handle, i'd prefer to either stick with something like the Tojiro DP, or go for a japanese style handle (i've never tried a japanese style handle before!). I'd prefer to avoid the more unusual western style handles/bolsters (eg: Nenox, Glestain, UX10). if i did go for a japanese handle, i'd prefer if it was black so it wasn't totally mismatched with my other knives.

i'd prefer to avoid any aesthetic gimmicks like hammered or damascus steel (or hammered and damascus steel). the dragon engraving on the misono sweden isn't really for me either.

in terms of cost i don't really mind if it is expensive or cheap. i'd rather not spend more than $300 and would prefer to spend half that much ideally. i'm expecting nothing more than to try to get the best knife i can afford to get.

right now the one i'm drawn to the most is the Kikuichi Performance TKC Sujihiki 270mm @ $191.96. that's based on price vs prominence (prominence as perceived by me as a lay person).

what do you think?


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## boar_d_laze

I think you should hold off until you've had the opportunity to play with your Masamoto for awhile.  That will give us some insight into what you like.

The 27cm Misono Sweden is a great choice if you can make the commitment to care for carbon.  The Masamoto VG isn't bad at all if you're going to stick with stainless.  Hard to criticize a Masamoto.  No personal experience, but I hear the TKCs are great knives and doubt you can go wrong. I've always wanted a Misono Sweden, but for one reason or another never got around to buying one.  FWIW, my own slicers are a 30cm Konosuke HD, 10" K-Sabatier au carbone, and 6" T-I "Nogent" (carbon, which I use as a petty) and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them. 

The Konosuke in particular is mind blowingly good, but you seem doubtful about wa-handles.

Nicely chosen set, by the way.  Seems like you need more congratulations than advice.

Congratulations,

BDL


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## ruscal

thanks for the advice BDL

i received the Mac paring and Masamoto gyuto last week and made a few dishes over the weekend so i'd have a chance to play with them a little

based on the knifes i have so far here's what i've gathered so far about what i do and dont like:
* i should stick with stainless steel. i can be a little lazy with my clean up. plus sometimes i work abroad for periods of time and i dont want to worry about having to oil and store my knives. 
* i prefer resin handles to wood handles. whatever it is they use on the Masamoto VG i love. i'm not so keen on the Mac wooden handles.
* i like the somewhat chunky handles on the Masamoto VG and Tojiro DP
* 80mm is too short for me as a paring knife. 150mm is great for precision work and filleting, but at the moment it feels a bit big for a paring knife for me. i might end up getting used to the 150mm, but meanwhile i think i'm going to retire the mac parer and get a 120mm petty to replace it. 
* the Masamot gyuto is a dash thicker than i'd like for slicing work. i made some fan sliced baked new potatoes (where you slice the spuds but not all the way through), and the thickness of the blade was close to splitting a couple of the potatoes. 
* at the moment i dont feel a significant difference between any of the different steels used in each knife. the Tojiro DP is a pretty cheap knife but the blade edge doesnt feel significantly worse than the Masamoto VG. the workmanship on the Masamoto VG does look better finished than the Tojiro DP though. 

does any of that help? or am i missing what i should be looking for..?


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## boar_d_laze

It all makes sense.

Tojiro DPs are made with VG-10 (it's stainless) cores, laminated between two sheets of softer, generic stainless. Both the MAC and Masamoto are probably made from VG-1 -- an alloy from the same maker (Takefu), very good but slightly less prestigious. Everything else being equal you can supposedly get VG-10 slightly sharper, but everything else never is.

There's a lot to like about the Tojiro, as long as you don't mind it showing its budget roots. There are things not to like too. I think the handles are boxy, the F&F indifferent, and don't care for any 3 layer, western style knife because they feel damped to me. That's a minority thing though. Most people don't notice it or don't care.

Most people prefer MAC handles over any other Japanese, "yo" (western-style) handle. It doesn't matter, because you aren't most people. Just saying. I really like the MAC's profile a lot, and I appreciate its stiffness as well. But -- for me -- the Masamoto's profile is better still, and definitely the best profiled gyuto for me -- perhaps because it's so much lie a Sabatier. Masamoto VG sujis are excellent knives too.

If you want a super thin suji, you might want to think about getting a "laser." It would mean using a "wa" (Japanese style) handle, but if you have a good, adaptable grip, that's no biggie. I have a 300mm (12") Konosuke HD (semi-stainless and _beaucoup expensive_) suji, absolutely love it, and it's currently the knife I use most often. The HD series is ridiculously expensive. Konosuke's stainless knives are still quite high priced but not quite so extreme. You don't give up very much for the savings either, a little hardness, a little sharpening "feel," and perhaps a tiny bit of absolute sharpness potential.

BDL


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## ruscal

BDL

do you mean that a "wa" (Japanese style) handle generally means that you get a thinner blade than with a western handle?

if so that is very interesting...

is this the stainless Konosuke that you were referring to(?): http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kowa271.html

i totally respect your opinion on the Konusuke, but if i was going to get a wa handle then i'd love to find a black handled one so that it matched a little bit with what i already have. am i aesthetically superficial? yes indeed - guilty as charged.

i saw this Masanobu which i quite liked: http://www.korin-france.fr/nos-coll...japonais/vg-10/masanobu-vg-10-sujihiki-2.html

What do you think of the Masanobu VG-10 suji? it seems like a good fit between what i'm trying to find and what you suggest will suit me?


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## boar_d_laze

BDL


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## ruscal

Thanks again BDL!

So looks like i have 3 choices:

1) get a great Suji with a wa-handle (like the Konusuke Swedish Stainless or HD) and have it re-handled. cost wise i'm looking at approx $215-285 plus the cost of rehandling. i like the idea of this but i have no idea where to look or who to speak to or what it would cost to arrange the re-handling. do you have any recommends for people or companies that do this? ideally i'm looking for a black resin handle (or similar) which i'm sure a lot of re-handlers will think is an odd request...(?)

2) get an average Suji with wa-handle like the Masanobu VG-10 which has the handle finish i'm looking for. cost is approx $370. but i don't get the true benefits of the wa-handle as the blade isn't very thin. and as attractive as the finish is the lack of performance kinda defeats the object of getting a wa handle right? seems like instead of this option i might as well go for option 3...

3) get an average Suji with a western handle (like the Masamoto VG or Togiharu G-1) which has the handle finish i'm looking for. This is certainly the cheapest option - around $180-200. but you don't get the best performance that you could for this type of knife due to the thickness of the blade...

right now my fav option is to get a re-handled Konusuke Swedish Stainless suji - that would be awesome... can you hook a brother up with some info and advice on re-handling?


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## boar_d_laze

That's a fair way of looking at it.  There are a few knife sites that have relationships with guys who do handles, or at least used to.  I don't really keep up with this stuff.  I think Japanese Knife Sharpening, Epicurean Edge and Chefs Knives To Go can all accomodate you. 

Your best bet is probably to go on a real knife forum and ask around.  My favorite is Fred's Cutlery Forum which one of the Foodie Forums.  It's a little more civilized and normal than the Knife Forum -- which can be very "personality driven," if you know what I mean.

It won't be cheap.

Then there are knives available with the sorts of handles you like.  Tadatsuna makes some of the best stainless lasers in the world, and I think they have a couple of handles you'll want.  The knives aren't cheap -- significantly more expensive than a Konosuke SS (but a better knife) -- and the handle is a significant upcharge as well.  

I like western handled slicers and don't believe you gain that much with a wa handle, unless you're a very, very good sharpener.  And even then...

Your best bet is to buy whatever knife you want when you're ready, with a stock handle, and try it for awhile.  You may really like the stock handle, and/or your feelings about matching knives may change.  

I all kinds of knives and handles, and think it looks good.  It sort of makes a mistake that you care more about what the knives do than how they look -- which is a darn good look. 

BDL


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## chrisbelgium

Quote BDL; "...Decent but way overpriced for what it is. Despite what Korin says about _"la finesse de la lame..."_ they aren't particularly thin at the edge -- about as thin as Sabatier carbons. Lovely cosmetics with their black handles and silver ferrules, but *otherwise run of the mill VG-10 san-ma*i in the same league as Shun. I'm not doing a good of reviewing them...."

No, Masanobu is made of full VG10 instead of "san-mai", aka sandwiched vg10 between two cheaper layers. I love the design of this knife. I was contemplating to buy a few of those but I switched to Hattori FH, also full VG10 and also a fabulous knife. Quality has a price, cfr. Nenox http://www.japan-messer-shop.de/Nenohi-Cutlery/Nenohi-S1/?XTCsid=iedbj4p8mst2qes4o42plljnu0 .

Ruscal, a suji is mostly the least used knife in a home situation!!! However, whenever needed, a spectacular knife contributes to the fun of a dinnerparty. Imagine slicing a turkey at christmas in front of the family with a knife like that..

Another, probably the very best slicer around, is the Hiromoto AS, which is a san-mai construction. The core steel is the toughest carbonsteel around, the outer sides are stainless. I own a few Hiromotos, they are fabulous and unbeatable in cutting capacity! Available at JCK straight from Japan. Also, Dave Martell has done quite a number of rehandlings. Want to see some of his work in a series of images? Here;

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?150-Western-Re-Handle-Gallery

Also, it's not Masanobu, but surely the best alternative together with Nenox. Here are the Hattori FHs I bought from JCK Japan. There's a 270mm slicer in there which is the best length for a slicer imo. The handle is in micarta and is sculpted to a hand's contour. If you're an European, go for JCK, they will turn out to be the cheapest in your situation; http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html


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## boar_d_laze

Chris was right about the Masanobu not being san-mai, but rather "mono-steel."  I stand by the rest of my critique though.  It's thick (as wa-sujis go), heavy (because of the handle), expensive, and not particularly good -- or at least not for the price.  Korin pushes them pretty hard, and they have something of a reputation among Korin's customers in Europe (where they are absolutely one of the very best sources for Japanese knives) and New York; but otherwise not so much. 

That said, it's important to keep context in mind and some semblance of reality.  It's still a very good knife.  At these elevated prices, any knife better darn well be good.  But enough with the fair and balanced.  Let's go back to the whining, it's more fun.

Knife context is nothing without a discussion of edge qualities.  They may be the be-all-end-all of knives, but if they aren't, nothing else is very close.  It's easy for a reviewer (or me, for that matter) to make very nuanced distinctions, but not only do most people not sharpen well enough to ever tell the difference, you're taking my abilities on faith.  Further, few of those who do maintain their knives, maintain them at such a consistently high level of performance that absolute edge taking abilities of high-end steel are tested in ordinary home use.  So, how important is it really?  I can't answer for you, but can only say it's of highest importance to me as I use knives, and report my experiences accordingly.

The Masanobu is made from a Takefu stainless alloy they call VG-10.  VG-10 is a very good alloy and had something of a reputation as being THE wonder stainless.  At least it was sold that way; and the gospel preached by a number of experts who should have known better.  In fact, it's just one very good stainless among several others including VG-1, VG-5, a couple of the "Swedish" steels, ginsanko (aka G3), etc.  Again, we return to absolute edge taking and holding abilities.  VG-10, hardened to 59 is good stuff no doubt, but edge geometry counts for more. 

Some VG-10 knives are quite prone to chipping -- Shun for instance.  I believe Masanobu has that rep as well, but am not sure.  I had lunch today with "KC," a guy who knows a LOT about knives, certainly more than me, we talked about Masanobus, and he was the one who brought that up.  He also used the term "chunky." 

The real difference though in a usable edge, providing you have the sharpening skills to exploit it, lies in geometry -- and that's where the lasers like Tadatsuna, Suisun Honyaki, Konosuke, etc., come in.  Provided you can live with the thinness, they are just plain better.  It's hard to talk about sharpness as an absolute, because the term can mean so many things, but, everything else remotely approaching equal, lasers certainly ACT sharper.  That's just how thin is.

In my opinion the Hattori Forum Knives are excellent, and the yo-handled FH knives Chris pictured are as good as "yo" VG-10 gets.  What Hattori knows that no one else does, I don't know.  But it's something important.

I actually owned four Hiromoto AS knives -- two gyutos, a suji, and a petty.  (AS means "Aogami Super," another wonder steel, but this time carbon.  As Chris noted, the AS is sandwiched between layers of plain-jane soft stainless.)  We bought them a few years ago with the idea of replacing my old Sabatier carbons which made up our "core set."  The Hiromoto handles were short and narrow, nowhere near as good as our au carbones or Nogents, and  neither my wife nor I cared for them.  Their reputation for edge taking was overblown.  Yes they got very sharp, but not any better than my carbon Sabatiers when both were sharpened to similar angles.  While the Hiros did hold their edges longer, they were more prone to chipping and not as easy to maintain.  (Like every other san-mai knife, they felt "damped" to me -- I'm not the only person who feels that way about san-mai -- KC, for instance, compares them to condoms -- but it's definitely a minority opinion and probably doesn't apply to you.)   Moral of the story:  We loved them so much we kept the Sabs and moved the Hiros along.  A lot of people though, absolutely swear by Hiromoto AS.  Who's to say?  It's all very individual.  I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.

FWIW, we currently have four "slicers:"  A 15cm SS Konosuke petty -- a "petty" is a 5" - 8" slicer-profile which gets used for a lot of things, and around here that includes a fair amount of trimming; a 6" Nogent slicer(carbon Sabatier), used in the same way; a 10" K-Sabatier au carbone; and a 30cm Konosuke HD, which at the moment, is my most frequently used knife for pretty much everything which isn't way too heavy duty.

I'm surprised that Chris doesn't use his slicer(s) that often.  Maybe we just do more trimming, portioning and slicing 'round here.

One of the things which makes the Konosuke 30cm suji so versatile is its agility.  Not only does it have a splendid profile, and a handle which suits me to a "t," its light weight (just a skosh over 4oz, compared to 7oz for a Masanobu 27cm) makes me less aware of its length than I would otherwise be.  Another is how easy it is to make and keep sharp.  Sharper than the factory edge -- which wasn't bad.  These are qualities the Masanobu does not possess to anywhere the same degree.  On the other hand, it does have a very pretty handle. 

BDL


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## chrisbelgium

_Quote BDL; ...Some VG-10 knives are quite prone to chipping -- Shun for instance. I believe Masanobu has that rep as well, but am not sure. I had lunch today with "KC," a guy who knows a LOT about knives, certainly more than me, we talked about Masanobus, and he was the one who brought that up. *He also used the term "chunky*." ... _

You're talking about the guy that posts as "kcma" on Foodie Forum, banned from Knife forum. Determing a knife as "chunky" is hardly an objective professional opinion, nor the qualification for Hiromotos; quote BDL; "...KC, for instance, compares them to condoms". ..

To be honest, having read a lot of kmca's posts in the past on both knifeforums, I wouldn't give 1 cent for his opinion on knives! Above all, he goes on and on, and on, to use only 3 knives, being a yanagiba, a deba and another one that I don't remember. Hardly nimble knives compared to the Konosuke lightweight. He's also the person that quoted that the mass of a knife is very important, hence why he uses his heavy unorthodoxly sharpened traditional japanese knives! This is where my 1 cent goes to as far as kcma's opinion on knives is concerned. Indeed, a heavy knife, like Germans for instance and some of the contemporary Japanese knives, all well sharpened of course, will cut faster and better than a very light knife like a Konosuke and other very thin lightweights.

_Quote BDL; ...I think Japanese Knife Sharpening, Epicurean Edge and Chefs Knives To Go can all accomodate you. ..._

If there's one persons opinion I would value very highly, certainly on Konosukes, it would be Jon Broida's from Japanese Knife Imports, the first in the US to sell Konosuke, practically a neighbour of you BDL, I presume, and as you well know, he worked shortly in the restaurant where... kcma works! I wonder why you don't mention Jon Broida to potential Konosuke buyers? Many posters on all knifeforums are very fond of him and his wife and appreciate his knowledge on knives and sharpening in general, his professionalism and his personal service when selling knives. 

　

In case readers are interested;

Foodie Forum; http://www.foodieforums.com/vbullet...lery-Forum&s=ebbaed4f63984aba4ece20dd55005f0e

Kitchenforum; http://knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/

Jon Broida - Konosuke; http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/


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## boar_d_laze

Chris,

I not only know Jon but consider him a friend. Not a close friend exactly, but we've had lunch together, talked on the phone numerous time, waved knives around in parking lots, addressed one another in forums, and we are certainly friendly. It's funny you should ask why I don't mention Jon to potential Konosuke buyers, when I not only frequently do so here and in other fora, but did a very positive piece on him in my blog (_vis a vis _Konosuke specifically, and other things too), and consider him to be one of the premier dealers of Japanese knives and stones in the US.

Speaking of friends, Jon's pretty close to KC and respects him a great deal both as cook and a knife maven. I'd say they share most, if not all, of their knife views. The reason I didn't recommend Jon's shop to ruscal was because the subject was replacing wa-handles, and Japanese Knife Imports does not (yet) provide that service.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to dis KC, but he's a _very_ close friend and I resent it. It's not exactly a scarlet letter, but KC was "kicked off" the Knife Forum for rude language and combativeness, not for incompetence. If competence was a necessity, the site would be depopulated.

KC is a really, really good knife technician, and really does know his stuff when it comes to sharpening and buying too. While still on the subject, although he's currently using the "trinity" of Japanese professional knives (deba, usuba, yanagiba), he used to use pretty much nothing but gyutos -- Includng Aritsugu "A," Masamoto (wa), and Tadatsuna. You can never be sure about those sorts of things, but I believe KC's online postings were instrumental to the Aritsugu gyuto's popularity. After he moved on from Aritsugu, about three years ago, his ginsanko Tadatsuna was the first "laser" gyuto I ever used (at a cooking tutorial for CIA cooking students which he taught and at which I assisted). FWIW, we don't agree about everything but I certainly listen to KC and respect his knowledge on all things knife.

While I did recommend the Konosuke SS suji as a good knife of its type and price, it's only one among several. I have no stake in what ruscal ultimately chooses, and just don't feel any sort of validation if someone chooses what I use or recommend -- which usually aren't the same.

I haven't recommended any Konosuke retailers in particular in _this_ thread, because ruscal's thinking hasn't evolved that far -- nor as he evinced any particular interest in Konosukes in particular or "lasers" in general. If and when the time comes to talk dealers, the recommendation would certainly include, Jon. But not Dave (your "David Martell"). Dave sells a very limited selection of knives, none remotely suitable for ruscal. Also Dave doesn't do JKS's handle work as you implied, Stefan Kellar does.

By the way, I just got off the phone with Jon. He, KC and I are in total accord about the Masanobus. Of the three of us, KC probably likes VG-10 the best, but we all agree that the Masanobus are bad VG-10 -- chippy, and unpleasant on the stones; they're thick; and their absolute edge taking is limited. Each of us dislikes their geometry -- both edge and profile. Jon called them very badly balanced. I think they're graceless, as much a product of their profile as their ridiculously awkward back-weighting. In any case all three of us agree they lack agility. They are not knives you'd choose to trim with -- one of the suji's primary raisons d'etre. Even my Forschner Fibrox cimiter does a better job. I'd say "one man's opinion," but not only is it three, we all know what we're talking about.

It's a sad thing because Masanobus are certainly attractive.

Your name came up in the conversation with Jon. I didn't realize he'd employed you to do some visuals for him in the past. Jon and I agree you are a real talent in that area.

BDL

PS. Ruscal, if you're still with us, apologies for the hijack.


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## ruscal

lol. that was interesting..!!! 

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i'm still here. and i have ordered a suji!!

i actually got in touch with Konosuke-Sakai directly and have been emailing back and forth with a very nice chap called Kosuke. at least I think he's a chap. he could be a chapette. apologies Kosuke-san for not knowing which you really are!!

anyway, my new pal Kosuke explained that Konosuke can add a custom handle. see pic below for the options and prices.



i went for the Wa-Sujihiki 270mm swedish stainless with the special order handle "J" - which is "ebony octagonal handle with a silver spacer (about 2mm width) between ferrule and ebony"

it should take a week before they can ship it.

so, yes - looks like i officially got to get my cake and eat it too!!

thanks BDL for the advice. your experience has enabled me to find what i think will be a really great knife!

and thanks too Chris - i appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences


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## boar_d_laze

My suggestion is to find out how much the ebony options weigh compared to an ordinary ho wood octagon with a horn ferrule.  If you make the knife too back-heavy it will become hard to point and a great deal more awkward for both trimming and chopping.

I love my Konosukes, and am sure you will love yours just as much.  Make sure you do it in the best of health. 

BDL


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## chrisbelgium

_Quote Ruscal; ...i went for the Wa-Sujihiki 270mm swedish stainless with the special order handle "J" - which is "ebony octagonal handle with a silver spacer (about 2mm width) between ferrule and ebony"..._

I remember Knifeforums organized a groupbuy from Konosuke. Adam, posting as Watercrawl at Knifeforums bought a similar one as yours. There's a few pictures too!

Nice buy, I love that "j" handle!

Groupbuy Konosuke thread Knifeforums;

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/847438/


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## ruscal

_Quote:_

_Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*_

_My suggestion is to find out how much the ebony options weigh compared to an ordinary ho wood octagon with a horn ferrule. If you make the knife too back-heavy it will become hard to point and a great deal more awkward for both trimming and chopping._

why would the ebony be significantly heavier than the ho wood? that doesn't make sense to me...?

_Quote:_

_Originally Posted by *ChrisBelgium*_

_I remember Knifeforums organized a groupbuy from Konosuke. Adam, posting as Watercrawl at Knifeforums bought a similar one as yours. There's a few pictures too!_

_Nice buy, I love that "j" handle!_

i can see 13 that have either the B or F handle, and 14 that are either D, E or H, plus 1 I and a couple of K's, but i can't see any J's on that link...?

d y'all think i ordered the western style K handle? J looks to me to be real similar looking to the standard ho wood handle...



i like that group buy though!! soooo many knives......!!!!!!


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## chrisbelgium

Oh, you're right Ruscal, I looked at the J-shaped handle instead the J-indicated one on your image.

Still, I like the J-shaped one, makes me think of the fabulous Nenox handles.

Of course it would be so nice of you to post a picture of your new acquisition in due time, ...probably a very sexy looking cutting device!


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## ruscal

thanks chris!

i will definately post pics once it arrives. that'll probably take 2 or 3 weeks though... a week for them to send it.. a few days for it to get to the uk... and then a week of it sitting in customs before i can pay the import duties and they release it for delivery...

that j-shaped handle K looks pretty cool on the custom knife that your recommended seller Jon at Japanese Knife Imports had made up with Konosuke - did you see it? here's a link:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...-edition-285mm-kiritsuke-shaped-sujihiki.html


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## boar_d_laze

No. I knew exactly which handle you ordered. Ebony is significantly denser than "ho," which is fairly light. The metal spacer adds some weight as well.

I'm not saying it's "too heavy," merely suggesting that you check and see what it does weigh. While I have my own preferences, I don't expect them to be yours. Nor is it my or anyone else's call as to what is and what is not too heavy or too anything else for you. You should have enough facts to make informed decisions, though, and you're worth the of my experience and knowledge -- limited as they are.

As it happens, I know someone who got a "J" (or it could have been an "L") handle for a Tadatsuna and was unhappy with it because the handle's weight changed much of what he liked about the knife to begin with -- not to mention the significant upcharge. Why should you be poorer _and_ unhappy too?

BDL


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## ruscal

> _Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*
> Why should you be poorer and unhappy too?_
> _BDL_


exactly why i haven't gotten married yet...(!) /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

okay, kewl. thanks for the clarification. i have asked my good pal Kosuke-san what the difference in weight is between handle "C" and handle "J" - and will report back to let you know what he says.

what i do know meanwhile is that for Konosuke Suji's the thickness of the blade is the same between the wa-handle and the western handle types. but there is a significant weight difference between them:

270mm Suji - Western Pakka wood handle type ; 2.2mm / 180g

270mm Suji - Wa Ho-wood magnolia octagonal handle type ; 2.2mm / 110g


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## ruscal

so i heard back from Kosuke...

handle C: weighs about 33g

handle J: weighs about 70g

so if the 270mm Wa-handle Suji with Ho-wood magnolia octagonal handle type weighs 110g

then the 270mm Wa-handle Suji with ebony octagonal handle with a silver spacer between ferrule and ebony weighs 147g

wow. i didn't expect such a significant weight difference... very interesting....

still, on the plus side it is still 33g lighter than the western style handle...

if anyone is interested here are a couple of more weights i found out:

F (rosewood); about 45g

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial}

I (ebony); about 70g


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## boar_d_laze

Just under four or just over five ounces.  Neither is exactly a tub of lard, but yes it's a difference. 

Are you planning on keeping your knife in a saya?

BDL


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## ruscal

i wasn't planning on keeping this knife in a saya... i have a magnetic wooden thingy which i use for storing my knives... see pic below...


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## ruscal

Konosuke sent me pics of my finished knife today!

They wanted me to check that i'm happy before they send the knife - not sure what "bad" things i'm supposed to look for?

Can anyone see anything which is a problem in the 2 pics below??


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## boar_d_laze

Beautiful knife.

BDL


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## ruscal

she's a looker, huh? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## wagstaff

SO good looking.  And I'll bet she performs like a dream, too.


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## chrisbelgium

Very elegant and indeed very sexy knife!


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## ruscal

suji finally made it past customs today!!

only bad thing... get the distinct feeling that maybe i should have got a 300mm... this 270mm feels like maybe its a teensy bit short...


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## wagstaff

It sure is a beautiful knife.  Why are you thinking it seems short? (Already?) -- are you using it as a slicer on ham or roast beef or... are you using as an all-around "chef's knife"?

I have a short "suji" (210mm) which is my petty knife.  I love it as much as any kitchen knife I've ever used.  I have been made curious about a 300mm suji because of BDL's posts; I'm wondering if you're actually finding the 270 short already, or just thinking it might be.

And I'm wondering if the usage of a longer suji as a gyuto/chef's is idiosyncratrically BDL, or if it would make sense to try for the rest of us.  (So this last question is really for BDL, not ruscal -- BDL? And supposing one cooks very differently -- i.e., primarily vegetarian? Apart from the insanity that is wanting every length of every style in every steel... I know you love your 300mm suji, but as you often say about knives you would use vs recommend -- do you think this is "recommendable" or just you?)


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## boar_d_laze

More me.  You need to be very comfortable "coming over the top" with your grip in order to avoid busting your knuckles.  A gyuto's more practical if for no other reason than it doesn't take nearly as much thought.  If I were still catering or working the line, and/or if I didn't get so much encouragement from you guys, I wouldn't fool around nearly as much. 

So you see, it's your fault.

BDL


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## wagstaff

Happy to take the blame, for one!  And even though you've talked about a 6" slicer as a petty... it's YOUR fault I'm using a 210mm suji as one (Ok, 75% your fault).  The books all seem to say "chef's and parer".  Which is where I started. Not no mo'.


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## boar_d_laze

Swapping a parer, utility and a boning knife for a petty is a paradigm shift, isn't it?  It's three, three, three knives in one.

BDL


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## wagstaff

It totally is... though I haven't given up the parer completely.  Still core strawberries the old way (like I do that every day...)


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## ruscal

when i first started exploring real knowledge on kitchen knives the longest knife i had was a 16cm global cooks knife.

one of my first "proper" purchases was to get a 240mm western handled gyuto. at first it seemed massive. but studying little clips on youtube i started to understand some technique and pretty soon found i was using the whole blade for veggie prep and suddenly didn't notice the size as being so outrageous.

i guess i was expecting the suji to feel super long first time i took it out of the box. like when you're a kid and your mom buys you new shoes and it takes a couple of months to grow into them.

but it didn't. i don't know if it feels short per say, but it certainly doesn't feel as long as i was expecting it to. i'm not sure if that means i shoulda got a longer blade or whether i got the perfect length. like you say i guess the proof will be in the pudding once i've had the chance to put some time into using the thing.

one thing i will say. ITS SUCH A PRETTY KNIFE!! i'm seriously considering buying a 240mm gyuto and a 150mm petty from the same supplier with the same steel and handle finish. means i'd probably retire my Tojiro DP santuko from misc prep duty and downgrade my Masamoto VG to take that job. i'd end up with 2 x 240mm gyuto's - a western and a japanese handle version, 2 x 150mm pettys - a western and a japanese handle version, this japanese handle 270mm suji, and a western handle bread knife.

feel a bit like a knife-aholic....


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## angrybob

Ruscal,  Beautiful knife.  I'm curious with the ebony handle, where is the balance point?


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## wagstaff

ruscal said:


> [...]
> 
> i guess i was expecting the suji to feel super long first time i took it out of the box. like when you're a kid and your mom buys you new shoes and it takes a couple of months to grow into them.
> 
> but it didn't. i don't know if it feels short per say, but it certainly doesn't feel as long as i was expecting it to. i'm not sure if that means i shoulda got a longer blade or whether i got the perfect length. like you say i guess the proof will be in the pudding once i've had the chance to put some time into using the thing.
> 
> [...] i'm seriously considering buying a 240mm gyuto [...]
> 
> feel a bit like a knife-aholic....


yes, knife-aholic. Me too (and it's kind of dumb for me, given that I'd do better to learn to cook better than worry about the next knife). Of course can't afford to truly indulge. But I will say... my second gyuto was a 270mm. So I'll encourage your addiction by saying, especially with your response to the new suji, you might want a 270mm instead of another 240mm gyuto. It doesn't make a much of a difference as from 210 to 240, or from 270 to 300, perhaps (as BDL says). But it seems to make plenty-enough difference to me. And you're wanting to move in that direction anyway, from what you've said.

Of course then you'll REALLY want the 300mm suji, because it'll feel like you "should" maybe. Sorry about that. I don't mean to push you to spend still more. But I bet you have the knife-craze in your eyes without my pushing, anyway. (I do... and totallly didn't earn it with advanced cooking skills. Still, I cooked with family members this weekend -- those who make better food than I -- and was appalled at their inefficient use of knives, and they were happy to learn how to stand, how to hold the knife, how to hold less tension, oh, everywhere, while cutting. So I suppose the interest in the tools did lead somewhere good).


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## ruscal

angrybob said:


> Ruscal, Beautiful knife. I'm curious with the ebony handle, where is the balance point?


the balance point is about 1cm above the handle. so if you pinch the blade with your thumb and forefinger when you cut, then you're roughly pinching the balance point


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## ruscal

Wagstaff said:


> yes, knife-aholic. Me too (and it's kind of dumb for me, given that I'd do better to learn to cook better than worry about the next knife). Of course can't afford to truly indulge. But I will say... my second gyuto was a 270mm. So I'll encourage your addiction by saying, especially with your response to the new suji, you might want a 270mm instead of another 240mm gyuto. It doesn't make a much of a difference as from 210 to 240, or from 270 to 300, perhaps (as BDL says). But it seems to make plenty-enough difference to me. And you're wanting to move in that direction anyway, from what you've said.
> 
> Of course then you'll REALLY want the 300mm suji, because it'll feel like you "should" maybe. Sorry about that. I don't mean to push you to spend still more. But I bet you have the knife-craze in your eyes without my pushing, anyway. (I do... and totallly didn't earn it with advanced cooking skills. Still, I cooked with family members this weekend -- those who make better food than I -- and was appalled at their inefficient use of knives, and they were happy to learn how to stand, how to hold the knife, how to hold less tension, oh, everywhere, while cutting. So I suppose the interest in the tools did lead somewhere good).


nice to meet a fellow sufferer..! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

tbh i'm not sure i'm ready to handle the jump from 240mm gyuto to 270mm gyuto yet... the 240 still feels plenty big enough...

i'm gonna try real hard to live with these knives for a few months before spending a shed load more money trying to guess what i may or may not like 6 months from now...

chances of that happening? slim. i've already emailed Kosuke to get some prices... dang it!


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## boar_d_laze

That a 270 doesn't feel "long" is part of the magic of a Konosuke.  The knives cut and point with such ease, are so very light and agile, you don't get the negatives you associate with length.  Plus 270 isn't really that long for a slicer/suji.  

It's easy to get sold on the HDs isn't it?  Didn't take much time for you to decide to go for the gyuto.

The best reason to go 240 over 270 is a small worker space.  If you have room on your board for the larger knife, it will probably make you happier in the end.  Learning to point that extra 30cm is all in the grip and your posture.  We can set you up so it only takes a few days before you're more comfortable and faster with the 270 than you ever were with a 210. 

The real companion to a laser is still something heavy duty.  A Konosuke gyuto can handle just about anything the VG can and vice versa. Your VG will probably end up as another good choice, rather than playing a separate role.  At least so it is with my Sab. 

We do a fair amount of big meat partly because some of the places we buy don't have great butchers, and partly as a consequence of how much 'q we do.  My current favorite heavy duty knife is a Forschner 10" Cimeter (review soon).   Now that's a companion to the Konosukes which does tons of things you don't want them to try.  I've always liked Forschners for everything but chef's and slicers, loved their butchers' series, and the cimeter is just one more of many good reasons to retain the prejudice.  

BDL


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## wagstaff

Having used a 10" Western chef's knife of one stripe or other before "converting" (mostly)... I don't see the 270mm gyuto as feeling "long" at all.  I have a 240mm CarboNext (which I both like and don't, for reasons beyond its length -- but I now wish was a 270mm knife). Moving to a 270mm (non-laser, even!) Yoshihiro, though, the extra length seems flat out better, even on a 12" deep board, in most every regard.  And a 270mm "laser" a la a Konosuke would "feel" even easier to point -- that "magic" BDL writes of. 

For me, it seems the 210mm petty and the 270 gyuto are the magic pair, a 240mm now seems like a strange compromise. (Mind you, I'm still VERY attached to the 10" French knife).

I'm going to get a deeper board, that will make the longer knives even more comfortable.  And yes, the wa-handled numbers make for a slightly shorter knife than the yo-handled.  So my yo- 240mm CN is slightly shorter than my familiar 10" Sab.  And my wa-handled  Yoshi is only slightly longer than the Sab.

I think the 210mm petty (wa-handle, suji-shaped) and the 270 wa-gyuto, are the "perfect pair" for what I do.

I think the Forschner Cimiter is an appealing idea -- but at this point I'm only cooking meat very occasionally for guests.  And I "want' a 300mm suji because of silly addiction and being an avid BDL reader.  But I can't figure out if that's really just silly, given the MANY differences in skill level and food-product being cooked.  (Or I think I have figured out it IS just silly. But not as silly as wanting 5 different 270mm gyutos because of different steels, and wanting more trad Japanese knives just because I want to learn to use them, no matter how inappropriate to what I cook 99% of the time.  Hello, my name is Wagstaff, and I'm a knife-aholic...)


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## ruscal

had a good month at work pay wise so i just ordered some new knives from Konosuke...

i went for the 240mm gyuto and the 150mm petty

i know i wanted a longer suji than the 270mm i ordered, but this was my first suji. i have a couple of gyutos and a few pettys so i'm more confident about what size i want for these.

can't wait to use these new knives. bit of a wait though - i need to wait 3-4 weeks for them to make the handles as they're currently out of stock.

well worth the wait in my opinion though.

its funny. i started this adventure looking for the perfect 8 knives. and now i've basically ended up with just 3 knives - but with western and japanese handle versions of each (if you can accept a japanese handled suji vs a western handled bread knife).

so yeah - thats these konosuke wa-handled 270mm suji, 240mm gyuto, and 150mm petty. verses my western handled mac 270mm bread, 240mm masamoto vg gyuto, and 150mm togiharu G-1.

now i just need to get rid of a tonne of global knives. i see a nice impromptu present in my sisters future....

thanks again for all the advice guys.


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## wagstaff

Did you go ebony again? Pics when you can!  You really "traded up".  I'm envious.


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## ruscal

ebony handle with the silver ring - yup

soon as Kosuke sends me pics i'll upload em here


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## joostbaksteen

Wow, that is such a beautifull knife /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif I really love the handle choice!


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## wagstaff

It really is... I always loved ebony.  (Played classical guitar for a long time and love the fingerboards!); I like lighter more though.  Knives I'm lusting after -- a couple of lines have burnt chestnut, which I think is really pretty indeed.

Matching ebony-handles on konosuke HD... you'll have better AND prettier knives than anyone you know, probably!


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## joostbaksteen

Wagstaff said:


> It really is... I always loved ebony. (Played classical guitar for a long time and love the fingerboards!); I like lighter more though. Knives I'm lusting after -- a couple of lines have burnt chestnut, which I think is really pretty indeed.
> 
> Matching ebony-handles on konosuke HD... you'll have better AND prettier knives than anyone you know, probably!


Indeed, my fingerboard is ebony as well (back and sides rosewood, which I really love as well, although I prefer black/ebony handles for knives).

Seeing these knives made me start doubting the Masamoto's as these are soo pretty... but are lasers... (excellent knives, but maybe not so much for beginners). Im going to think it through. I feel if go for the Masamoto's i'll want something like this in the future.... ending up with the same collection as Ruscal...


----------



## wagstaff

JoostBaksteen said:


> Indeed, my fingerboard is ebony as well (back and sides rosewood, which I really love as well, although I prefer black/ebony handles for knives).
> 
> Seeing these knives made me start doubting the Masamoto's as these are soo pretty... but are lasers... (excellent knives, but maybe not so much for beginners). Im going to think it through. I feel if go for the Masamoto's i'll want something like this in the future.... ending up with the same collection as Ruscal...


What do you play, Joost?

That's getting too far afield. OK... part of the appeal of the ebony is tactile sensation, which you have with a fingerboard. The rosewood is not touching your hands (except left hand thumb) and there it's presumably lacquered and not providing the same sort of relationship. So ebony to touch... even if the rosewood is prettier (maybe or maybe not). But looking back over the posts to check out the relative weight... for knives I'd go with the lighter (weight, not color) wood, myself. So long as we're going extreme... and basic ho-wood looks more like the guitar top, too (German spruce, in my case -- much "blonder" than cedar soundboards).

Seriously, I'd be pretty thrilled with a set of Konosuke HDs whatever handle option, finally.


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## joostbaksteen

I play steelstring acoustic (the martin guitar mentioned, with cedar top), as well as electric (epiphone LP and a semi home-build (warmoth) strat), utilizing all for blues and rock with some home-build tube amps  (sorry for the off-topic, we'll continue in PM )

Regarding the weight of the handle; with the ebony handle Ruscal had the balance point about where you hold the knife with a pinch grip. With using a lighter handle it would be tip-heavy. Isn't the balance better with the ebony handle?

(I think i'll kidnap my dad's very tip-heavy 5$ wa-sujihiki tonight, sharpen it and try it out to experience the feel)
 

PS: if i'm hijacking the thread too much let me know!


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## wagstaff

Threads drift... I think we're good (all the earlier posts are here, and the natural terminal point to the original -- till ruscal gets his knives or some pics! -- has been reached). But yeah, PM is fine for guitar talk.

Yes, japanese knives are blade-heavy; they're light, though, and balance is not a goal.

I sort of think of balance is a bit like speed in guitar playing.  It's sold to people as important because you can TELL that much without having to know anything else.  That is, it might be important to some, it might be relevant, but it's also just a lowest-common-denominator that makes people feel expert.  (I know that Shawn Lane is faster than McLaughlin, I KNOW m guitar! Or... I know this knife is better balanced!)

That's maybe wrong. I'm fine with being wrong if it is, and fine apologizing to those who know why balance is important to them (sorry!).   But to me, balance is not an issue on a light knife, esp a pinch-gripped light knife.

Sorry if I'm wrong about hijacking -- I'll be the first to ooh and aah when there's more news, ruscal!  And BTW, I'll bet your sister will be blown away by the Globals when that transfer happens.


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## ruscal

so... i'm still waiting for my new konosuke's to be delivered (240mm gyuto & 150mm petty)

and while i was waiting i ordered another knife. a 210mm petty from ashi hamano. i went for the 61HRC stainless option. again with ebony and a silver ring.

i really need to stop spending money on knives soon...


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## wagstaff

I have the 210mm Gesshin Ginga petty -- which is made by Ashi Hamono.  I suppose the higher hardness option makes our blades the same; mine doesn't have the fancy handle.  It's a wonderful knife.  I'd love to hear what you think of the stainless vs. the Kono HD, both in terms of use and sharpening!  I hope you get the Konosuke knives soon.... something to play with to distract you from buying more! And now I really want to see a pic of that Ashi.


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## ruscal

Wagstaff - yes i think mine will basically be a gesshin ginga as well - at least it'll have the same steel. if i was in the US i'd probably have bought from JKI, but i'm in the UK and didn't want to pay 2 sets of import charges... so here's a question for you: what do you use your 210mm petty for? i can see the logic in having it, but curious as to someone's actual experience using it. you use it along with a gyuto right? can you give any examples of how you use the 2 knives in combo during food prep?


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## wagstaff

Hi ruscal -- Originally, I got it because I cook unusually frequently with winter squashes or sweet potatoes or other things that tended to stick to the cook's knives; the blade profile has a lot less surface area for these things to stick.  But I also didn't have a Konosuke gyuto, so while my other knives are thin, they're not lasers. Turns out the laser is the knife that doesn't wedge and make carrots go skittering at all, and can go through a kabocha most easily (which was a revelation, I'd been using a tank of a Wusthof, my ersatz "chef de chef", for such scary things before).

The big surprise to me... I found I use it in place of any paring task at this point, with the one exception that I'm not comfortable coring strawberries with it. As BDL teaches, it's a parer, utility, and boning knife in one! (I'm an avid student, even if my cuisine is less demanding -- for one, I don't do much in the way of boning or portioning, never for myself alone and that's the vast majority of my cooking). It's on this thread that he wrote how a petty is "three, three, three knives in one!"  Even if my petty might be longer than what he was suggesting.  More on that in moment.

My preferred larger knife is either a 10" cook's knife or 270mm gyuto; sometimes it's just wanting to use something smaller for a variety of purposes. The 210mm as a petty....  It's actually fine for peeling in hand (!), and it's fine for cutting smaller amounts of food and only slightly more awkward than a gyuto such as dicing onions or cleaning peppers, or yes, mincing herbs. Really it's not necessarily the first choice for those tasks, but one of those "it's in hand already" things, and it's easy if doing smaller amounts. My pinch is slightly 'over the top' in those instances and I can work slightly off the board if I'm really worried about knuckle clearance.  Depending on the particular moment -- that is, what-all is being prepped in what order, and especially if prepping larger amounts, the cook's knife is used because of knuckle clearance and because it's quicker work and easier/safer for the "claw" hand. (Y'know, the usual reasons it's designed the way it is!)  And it's definitely easier to get more precise julienne or dice and such with the cook's, when that matters.  (It matters often to me because I'm not that *good* at it, so like to practice even where it's not important for the finished product.  I'm still a weak enough technician that I find it fun to make meals based on what I want to practice cutting. My priorities are all screwed up.  Ashamed to say it, but I came at this as a knifenut before foodie.  It's a little pathetic, really).

I have a couple of 6" knives, too, which can be used for most petty knife purposes; I had them before the 210mm wa-petty.  But I had them in the block at the time I started out with the more standard, book-learned concept of a "chef's knife and paring knife cover almost everything", so didn't use them to their full potential out of ignorance.  Paired with the cook's knife, they'd be pretty perfect, too, for lots of folks; but a couple of things -- where I started this post, with winter squashes and potatoes and such -- "wanted" the newer, longer knife.  And once using that, I've found fewer reasons to put it down. It's just the most versatile thing for me.

(Very long answer for such a simple one.  Forgive me -- like Blaise Pascal and Mark Twain, I'd have written a shorter letter but I didn't have the time).


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## wagstaff

EDIT - double post somehow.  Speaking of writing too much...


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## ruscal

forgiven! i like long posts. i can read a weirdly long amount about knives without getting bored. either means i'm very boring or you're very interesting. lets go with you being interesting - i think thats better for both of us.

i can imagine using the 210mm petty for preparing fruit, chicken, fish, beef filet, and small veg. like it'd be perfect for making breakfast.

i like this youtube link on cutting technique: 




what i'd like to get is a bunch of videos like this to help me work out which knife i should be using for which job. do you have any youtube links or dvd's that you'd recommend?


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## wagstaff

Hi ruscal -- yes, that's a good video; I have the book, and the DVD (which is about 20 minutes) from which that video was lifted. I think Weinstein is a good teacher, though adjustment to his tip-down bias has to be made when using knives with less belly than the Wusthofs he uses. (It's not hard).

Other videos -- search youtube for Devin Thomas Forum Prototype for a fun one -- no narrative explanation, so it's not so much instructional in intent as a knife-demo, but I like that one a lot.

And more what you're asking for -- these are very short and efficient, so need watching more than once. They have the same annoying intro to each, so if you watch a bunch of them in sequence it might drive you a bit crazy, but otherwise I think the best and best-organized set of knife instruction videos I've found is here: http://www.stellaculinary.com/knife-skill-video-techniques-hd


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## wagstaff

And I just found this today -- I love that he's using a longer petty for "everything", which is a way better answer my typing. He uses a "pointer" grip (or whatever it's called) which.... I had sort of thought was "wrong" but clearly I have MUCH to learn. And it makes perfect sense for knuckle clearance -- "over the top" more than trying to pinch that way. He's also mostly working off the edge of the board with his cutting hand. Lots of what I do with the 210mm petty is in a forlorn attempt to look something like the less-fancy parts of this:


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## ruscal

not too sure about the devin thomas thing (is it the one where he chops some onion and some peppers with a 270mm chefs knife?)

the stella one is awesome. looooads of info there - thanks so much for sharng. and i get your point bout the intro, but easy to pop in at 20secs and miss all that. i never knew you were supposed to scrape all the black stuff off the bottom of a portabello mushroom...

that one with the 210mm petty is intense. broke down for me once he got to the tomato, and the music is frickin insane, but the skill is undeniable.

thanks so much for sharing the info bro


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## wagstaff

I have read comments about the music on that last video -- I haven't had the sound on to hear it though.  I was running my music through the computer so... no youtube sound.

On the other hand, one thing I *like* about the DT Forum Prototype video is strangely domestic-themed music makes me laugh as soundtrack to onion-dicing. ("Daft Punk is playing at my house... my house!")  What don't you like about it? It's Norman-Weistein-approved (and stellaculinary approved) method of dicing an onion.  Where the retrieval of the knife is not absolutely perfect is where you see bits of onion get pushed up --  not that it matters, but it shows what is an is not a perfectly squared up cut-and-withdrawal.  But really I mentioned that video as more of a lark.

I learned another onion method from a different forum -- which isn't a perfectly cubed dice, but close enough to even size.  That is, instead of the first set of vertical cuts (tip toward the root), you do those "radially" around the arc of the onion.  Then skip the horizontal cuts.  This method is easier with the long petty than with a gyuto, at least for the radial cuts.

There's ALL SORTS of stuff on stella, besides knife technique, too.  It's a really nice resource for those of us who haven't found time or money for real cooking classes.


----------



## ruscal

the dt forum thing is ok, and i liked the music too, but i thought the technique was a bit basic was all. 

i need to check out the stella thing in more detail. but maybe when i've had less than a few glasses of wine...


----------



## phaedrus

ruscal said:


> i never knew you were supposed to scrape all the black stuff off the bottom of a portabello mushroom...


You eat a porto without scraping the gills off? Ewwww!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## ruscal

lol. i know. i'm a fool when it comes to portobello mushrooms.

just watched all of the knife skills on Stella Culinary

some other stuff i never knew:

 * you were supposed to get rid of the core of a cucumber before cutting it up and putting in salads

 * how to use one of those T shaped graters (although not sure his method is quicker than mine bearing in mind clean up)

 * what a citrus supreme was

 * that it was a good idea to slice off the core (centre corner) from a wedge of lemon 

 * that chicken with the first part of the wingbone still attached was called an airline chicken breast

 * that the skinny end part of a beef tenderloin was the "filet mignon"


----------



## boar_d_laze

The skinny, end part is the "tail," and not the mignon; it's good for dishes where meat tenderness and texture is more important than size and regular shapes; Stroganoff, tartare and kabob, by way of a few examples. The middle is the filet mignon. The thick end, the part of the loin primal extending into the sirloin primal (you have to know some myology to picture it), is usually called the _chateau briand_, but _chateau briand_ definitions can be elastic.

When it comes to good knife skills, there quite a few universal wrongs but not that many universal rights. In other words, there are all sorts of ways to be good. Your video described one style, and it's a good one; but should probably be adapted a little if you're using super-sharp Japanese (and French) chef's knives. The teacher pushed his knife forward on the board a lot more than necessary, and his tip-down "high position" was higher than you'd use with a French profile. So it goes; what's right for him and his knife, is far from best for me and mine. Even within the universe of European technique, there's a myriad of variations. Something to remember, but don't worry about it too much now. After you learn some degree of efficiency, you'll end up finding out which tweaks work best for you and your knife.

BDL


----------



## ruscal

boar_d_laze said:


> The skinny, end part is the "tail," and not the mignon.... The middle is the filet mignon


did some research online... and checked my "ginger pig meat book" (great book for the meat lovers btw)... and i think you might be wrong on this one BDL...


----------



## boar_d_laze




----------



## ruscal

"(_mignon_, meaning "delicate", as true mignons are cut from the smaller tail end of the tenderloin). In contrast, some butchers in the United States label all types of tenderloin steaks "filet mignon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filet_mignon


----------



## boar_d_laze

You can cut filet mignon steaks from the tail end, I suppose, but not from the end of the tail. The end is way too small in diameter, and steaks cut across it would be far too small for service. Easy enough to go buy a whole, untrimmed tenderloin and see for yourself how much of the tail is too thin to make a decent (palm-sized) steak. Tenderloin is expensive, but it freezes well, there's not much waste (practically nil, if you save the excellent fat for making ground beef), and there's no substitute for experience.

In addition, I think you're confused by a lack of clarity in the wiki. For instance, it also says, _In the US, *the central and large end of the tenderloin are often sold as filet mignon* in supermarkets and restaurants._ (Citing to Julia Child) [Emphasis mine]. Ordinary terminology here in the U.S. is that the tail is the tail and is too small to be steaked. Once you move up the tenderloin far enough to cut steaks, you're not on the tail anymore.

Wiki or not, I've "steaked" and otherwise portioned close to a thousand tenderloins, and have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. Trust me.

Not worth arguing over, 
BDL.


----------



## petemccracken

Adding to BDL's comment, I've seen numerous techniques for salvaging the tail pieces to serve as fillet mignon, specifically, cutting the tail portion twice the thickness desired for the serving, then partially _butterflying_ and wrapping with bacon, or even butcher's twine to achieve the palm size serving.

Wikipedia can be a quick source, however, when an entry has a notation:


> This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (May 2009)


, it probably should be used with some degree of caution.

Besides, IMPS/NAMP is a fairly reliable source of information and would probably qualify as a source for citation for the Wiki article, no?


----------



## boar_d_laze

x


----------



## ruscal

i had to google the IMPS/NAMP thing
[h5]Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications (IMPS)[/h5]
IMPS means the USDA approved Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications (IMPS) for fresh beef, pork and lamb.
[h5]North American Meat Processors Association (NAMP)[/h5]
NAMP means the North American Meat Processors Association, which has been issuing a Meat Buyer's Guide since 1963, and has been issuing the Poultry Buyers Guide for the last two years.

i totally appreciate that wikipedia isn't to be trusted 100%

but if we're discussing a term which may have been misinterpreted in the US, then i'm not sure a US association and/or US specifications are the place to find the right answer either...

anyway. regardless of what a filet mignon is or isn't, it was fun learning about how to prep a whole beef tenderloin.


----------



## phaedrus

My bad...did we just figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


----------



## wagstaff

boar_d_laze said:


> [snip]
> When it comes to good knife skills, there quite a few universal wrongs but not that many universal rights. In other words, there are all sorts of ways to be good. Your video described one style, and it's a good one; but should probably be adapted a little if you're using super-sharp Japanese (and French) chef's knives. The teacher pushed his knife forward on the board a lot more than necessary, and his tip-down "high position" was higher than you'd use with a French profile. So it goes; what's right for him and his knife, is far from best for me and mine. Even within the universe of European technique, there's a myriad of variations. Something to remember, but don't worry about it too much now. After you learn some degree of efficiency, you'll end up finding out which tweaks work best for you and your knife.
> BDL


I think this is the more interesting issue to be remembered when using stellaculinary to "learn stuff". (Not that I'm at all uninterested in semantics). This same caveat applies most definitely to Norman Weinstein's knife-skills book and associated videos, and indeed to all of the major knife-skills books I've seen (i.e., at least the Henckels Complete book and the Hertzmann book, too). That *and* all of these sources are chef's-and-parer (vs petty) biased. I've been messing a bit with how much forward-push ('glide") to use; definitely it seems a less sharp knife needs more of that.

I see a lot of posts on another knife forum that indicate the vast majority of folks there prefer a flatter profile on knives; that is, flatter than the French profile of the Sabs, anyway; which I'm not sure but I take to be about a preference for straight "guillotine" knife movement, which presumably comes from trad Japanese knife technique? Certainly some people seem to have worked up almost superhuman speed with this. My dad told me, after trying to learn from the stella skills site, "it's like using a mason's trowel... it looks easy, but it ain't."


----------



## boar_d_laze

Wag -- About the flatter knives, if you're talking about KC, BLW and maybe a very few other people, yes, they can do things with a flat profile to make it sing. But Fred's, bless it, is more about hobbyism and collection than cooking skills. There are very few people on Fred's who have even decent knife skills. You can figure out who they are pretty easily and tune them out.

Professional status doesn't mean too much either. You find a lot of pros using unsharpened, poorly sharpened or unsharpenable knives. If that doesn't tell you that their technique is all about working around a dull edge, what could?

As you know, I don't like an absolutely straight "push cut," and do like a little forward slide (Guillotine and Glide) for a few reasons, not the least of which is quiet. It's also easier on your knife hand and wrist. So, I prefer a Sabatier / Masamoto / Konosuke gyuto profile to... say... a Takeda. I like Tadatsunas and MACs a lot too, but not quite as much as the Sabatier group. Assuming you can get the knife freaky-sharp, profile preference isn't a matter of sharpness, it's a matter of training and taste.

BDL


----------



## wagstaff

Thanks BDL -- actually, I wasn't talking about KC and BLW in particular... though I haven't done a statistical study of posts. At least for kc I've seen videos of him at work. But no, when folks do custom orders (I'm looking at Fred's and at KNF both) or when discussions come up in the sales section, -- lots of folks talk about wanting more "flat". I've very rarely seen anyone say "I'd like that better if it had just a bit more belly" on the other side. I think these things do go in "fashions" especially among hobbyists, though. 

And point taken about it being "not a matter of sharpness" -- whether push-cutting is preferred. It seems to me that when I was visiting family in August, playing with the knives both pre- and post- some sharpening, while always using a little forward slide at least, the duller knives wanted more than the same knife sharpened. This is very limited experience and "seemed to be" sorts of impressions rather than careful observation over a number of trials. (and YGPM, by the way -- I hope those are getting through)


----------



## ruscal

just received pics of my new Konosukes!

unfortunately i'm not too happy... the ebony handle looks more like Rosewood...

i asked my contact Kosuke, and he said: "Not all the part of the ebony is black and sometimes have light color. I'm afraid it is difficult to chose the color.."

but i'm going to try to work something out with him so that somehow i end up with black handles...


----------



## wagstaff

That's disappointing -- personally I like the light color -- and in between. My Sabs have "blacker" handles but the lighter grain peeking through. I know in many applications (not necessarily knives) I've seen ebony dyed blacker.

I hope you resolve your order to satisfaction, getting what you want. Aside from what you want, those are very pretty knives!


----------



## ruscal

thanks W

i actually don't totally hate the colour. but if i wanted a rosewood colour i would've gotten rosewood and saved myself about 35g in weight....

plus they look nice individually, but once they're on the magnetic rack with the rest of my black handled knives they'd get on my nerves i reckon...


----------



## wagstaff

And the sample pics you saw looked black. Are they going to make you new ones and sell those to another customer? I can guess how anxious you must be getting.


----------



## boar_d_laze

It's probably macassar ebony, that's the best ebony for knife handles, and pretty much how it is -- albeit with some variation. I think the grain structure is gorgeous, and those handles don't look anything like rosewood to me in grain or color. Pictures can be deceiving and the ebony may not be as light as you think it is. They may be lighting bright, to bring out the grain and colors, and then there's the black background.... 

If you want solid, jet black, and it's not too late to change, get stained wood or something synthetic. It would be a shame to have the pictured handles stained.

If you're stuck with the macassar, oil the handles with mineral oil ("paraffin oil" in the UK) and they will darken substantially. It's something you should do now and then with all wood handles anyway, to stabilize them. Make oiling part of your sharpening routine, and you won't go far wrong.

BDL


----------



## ruscal

i heard back from my man Kosuke. he said: 

Dear Russell san

Thank you for your reply.

OK.

I asked to the workman to make two handles again

as black as possible.

When ready, I'll show you before attaching.

Could you wait more?

isn't that great? and what a top guy huh?

feel a bit sad for those lonely light coloured handles though.. they were pretty... almost want to buy them and give them to someone as a present... but would be a very expensive present...


----------



## wagstaff

ruscal said:


> {...snip}
> 
> feel a bit sad for those lonely light coloured handles though.. they were pretty... almost want to buy them and give them to someone as a present... but would be a very expensive present...


I'd be more than happy to pay the shipping costs to California should you want to send them to me


----------



## ruscal

ok, you sold me - i'm in!


----------



## wagstaff

ruscal said:


> ok, you sold me - i'm in!


Easiest ever making of a new best friend!


----------



## ruscal

ok, so heard back from my pal Kosuke...

but not great news...

here's the pic they sent me. see if you can see the difference between the old handles (as fitted to the knives) and the new "darker" handles...


----------



## boar_d_laze

The handles will look a lot darker when they're not on a black background and not so hotly lit.  

BDL


----------



## joostbaksteen

Yes, and although they definitely look darker than the originals, comparing them to the ferrule they're still pretty 'brownish'.

Although I love the way the handles and the knifes look (I'll settle with them anyday, no prob!!) they're not the same as the "J" in 'different handles image' in the first page.

Maybe you/they have no option but to dye the handle, to give it the real black, almost pakka wood look, if you really want the pure black....


----------



## ruscal

i said its ok to kosuke and thanks for trying and he should send them (with the new handles)

i actually like the way they look in the pic. just not sure if they'll look quite as good when they're hanging out with all my black handled knives...


----------



## wagstaff

I think they look beautiful.  And there's no color clash.  Black goes with everything.

I also saw that farther away from my computer screen, they looked darker.  I'm not sure if that's just an artifact of the pixels, or that might hold true in real life -- in addition to the more forgiving light, no doubt, in your kitchen.


----------



## ruscal

so decided to go with the new gyuto handle (the one not attached) with the old petty handle (as attached)

looking forward to getting them

should receive the 61hrc ashi 210mm petty at around the same time - just got word that was shipping too...


----------



## boar_d_laze

Relax my friend.  They'll look so much better.

BDL


----------



## ruscal

just got pictures of the knives ready to be sent. should leave japan on monday, so hopefully get them around back end of next week...

here are the pics i was sent:


----------



## wagstaff

Those are gorgeous.  I love that you can really see the wood grain.  Sorry it's not as dark as you originally wanted, but I'm hoping you're happier than you might have been had you gotten what you envisioned.  We'll see once they arrive.  I like.


----------



## ruscal

thanks BDL and Wagstaff

yeah, i think i might actually prefer them to all black...

will have to wait and see once they arrive...

now i'm wondering what the ebony on the ashi will look like?


----------



## ruscal

ok, so the ashi 210mm 61HRC petty arrived today!

and it looks really nice!

its hard to tell from the pictures, but the ebony handle is about halfway between the full black on my 270mm suji, and the brown/black grain on my 240mm gyuto

i'm very happy with this!

some pictures...


----------



## boar_d_laze

Bella bellisima.

BDL


----------



## phaedrus

Wow, she's a beaut all right! How does she cut?/img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


----------



## ruscal

okay, so i attempted to shoot some video of my first time using this new knife

i don't really have too much in the house right now food wise - just some bacon and bread for breakfast and some steak and potatoes for dinner. so i decided to slice some shallots that i can save for later for the steak (flash fry steak in pan, move pan to oven to bake steak, remove steak, fry shallots in same pan, tea spoon of flour, shot of port to deglaze, reduce port by about half, couple of home-made veal stock ice cubes from the freezer, reduce, bit of butter, salt and pepper to taste, sieve and serve over steak)

shot it with my iphone. here's what i fashioned together as a tripod:



yup. kitchen roll holder and blue tack. classy huh?

okay, so here's 2 video's. the 1st one is my first ever attempt to use this knife. it's also the first time i have ever attempted to video myself doing anything.

it took me a while to peel the shallots, so i did a 2nd video where the shallots are pre-peeled, so more chopping less waiting. if you're finding the 1st video boring then maybe just try to watch the 2nd video...



















any and all advice on any part of my technique would be gratefully appreciated!! i'm just a home cook with zero training.

here's a pic the end result:



and a quick-n-rough iphone pic of how my knife rack is developing. left a bit of space on there for the wa-handle konosuke gyuto and petty which are inbound...


----------



## boar_d_laze

You're holding the knife much tighter than you need to for a blade that sharp. Relax.

Most (but not all good cooks) keep their fingers off the spine for chopping (which includes cutting shallot slices), preferring the pinch grip or the "Asian" variant (pinching the handle instead of the blade). Read Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch and try out the techniques there until you're comfortable with them -- at least a month. You can always go back.

As it stands, you're carving the shallot, not chopping it. The knife should go down through it with more of a "push cut" or even a "rock chop" action. If you want to push cut, hold the knife with the edge parallel to the board (as you already are) and "push" it straight down through the food. It will make an annoying "tap, tap, tap" as you cut, which will let you know if the edge is parallel or not. Incomplete cuts mean "not parallel," also.

Better still, try a slightly more tip down position. Instead of pulling the knife towards you, try pushing it forward. That uses the belly of the knife to great advantage. Read Guillotine and Glide - The Classic French Action, and give those techniques a shot as well.

With a little practice the soft pinch and French action will have you ready for a brigade in a high-end kitchen in no time.

Good use of your offhand "claw." Well done on that, sir.

Overall, your current technique is naive and could be more efficient and comfortable. But try to remember the whole idea is to have fun cooking -- don't let the pursuit of technique become a chore. If you're happy with how yours works for you, I'm ecstatic. Blunt as hell, but ecstatic.

BDL


----------



## wagstaff

My technique is primitive at best so take with a grain of salt here.

I think you're not squared up very well, either.  Right foot back a bit so you're not coming across your body.  It'll help relax both the grip and the arm, and keep your knife straighter when you're having to cut something a bit more difficult than shallots.

I love that knife, btw.  I have one like it, only with a less pretty handle, and it turns out, less pretty ferrule probably (just because yours has more white/light marbling in the black of your ferrule). I've been using it too much -- like for some tasks better served by other things, I'm learning slowly -- because I like it so much. 

BTW, how do you think the new ebony handles look on your mag-strip, next to the yo handled knives? I think they look great in the iphone pic.  Really great. (And they'll probably get darker over time whether you want them to by then or not).


----------



## ruscal

ok... so i tried to change my grip to make it a bit more loose... and i lost the forefinger thing although i got that from this youtube clip: 




and i tried to back my right foot off as per wagstaff

first off i tried the "push cut" or "rock chop" action that BDL suggested. it's the first time i've ever tried this. was just starting to get confident when i took a wafer thin slice off of one of my knuckles. kinda lost my confidence a bit after that. anyhoo, here's the vid. if you don't mind i'd love for you to let me know whats good and whats bad here:










next up i tried the other thing that you BDL suggested - using the belly of the knife to chop. i'm used to doing this with a gyuto. but i found this quite strange with the petty. there's so little body that i find it hard to rock it. watching the vid back i'm more chopping than pushing it forwards....


----------



## boar_d_laze

Don't worry about chopping.  Heck, you want to chop.  You're already going about twice as fast as you were when you slicing and it's the first day you're trying it.  You can come over the top a little more with your right hand if you want, but if you're not worried about your knuckles, neither am I.

I think you've got almost enough forward action considering you're working with a petty.  You want to end up with what works best for you, and a pinch is looking pretty good.  The right amount of "rock" and "slide" you end up using with a particular knife will find you eventually.  But for the time being, exaggerate them just to make sure that at least some becomes intuitive.

Instead of resetting your claw on a shallot, roll it a quarter turn and keep going.  You'll waste a little more, but the work will go substantially faster.   

So far, you're looking a lot better than you did in your first videos. 

BDL


----------



## chrisbelgium

Beautiful ashi, Ruscal! Indeed your cutting technique has room for improvement. Don't worry, practise helps but certainly learning from real pro's.

You may enjoy a few videos on YouTube posted by Saltydog55252. 

He's a restaurant owner and a working chef, a very experienced user of Japanese knives. He even made a video where he shows his work collection.

But, first things first, take a look at this video titled "*Strokes for new folks*"; http://www.youtube.com/user/Saltydog55252#phttps://cheftalk.com/members/15"2">Here's his "*Working knife inventory*"; http://www.youtube.com/user/Saltydog55252#phttps://cheftalk.com/members/18"Idiotking" on the kitchenknife section of this forum; http://knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/


----------



## boar_d_laze

Chris Belgium wrote:
[Sic]

"Real pros," presumably as opposed to surreal pros...



/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

I have to ask, "So Chris, taking everything you've learned from Salty's videos and the free-floating advice on the Knife Forum, how would you describe the best way to thin-slice a shallot using an 210mm suji/petty?"

BDL

______________________________________

_Not your old BDL. Oh no. The New and Improved BDL aka the Rene Magritte of Knife Advice_


----------



## johnr

In the 2nd video you started with a pinch grip on the blade but eventully moved your grip back to the handle. You may find that with softer foods it might not make much of a difference but with harder foods (potatos, etc.) you will have less control... I'd suggest to keep the pinch on the blade especially on the longer knives.

Also be careful when using the knife as a board scrapper or clearing the knife of the cut food. Both of those scenarios allows the potential (from experience) to nick your left hand.


----------



## chrisbelgium

"Sic", Boar??? And yes, I do know what it means, imagine that.

When I say someone is a "real pro" I mean he is accepted by many people as a really good pro and that he has earned his status mostly by "leading by example".

Surrealistic would be more, eh.., like preparing tiny brussels sprouts with a 300mm suji, yes, that's surrealistic. How's the saddleburr healing?

Back on topic, Ruscal, I have a Kanetsugu Saiun 210mm slicer from JCK that I frequently use for all kinds of tasks. Cutting onions etc., is best done when you put the onion near the lowest edge of the board, cut with the heal section of the knife and let the handle hang over the board. Works perfectly!

I stopped "chopping" onions like in Salty's video since I took a cooking class past year. The chef showed me how to keep the tip of the knife at all times on the board, without any pressure. Then when going through the onion, make a forward cutting movement while gently pushing the heal downward, all done while the tip of the knife remains on the board. No more banging of the knife on the board and certainly smoother cutting, even with a 210 mm slicer, handle hanging overboard. Of course, the shape of the blade is important in doing this. A little more "curve" in the tip section of the knife is not such a bad thing for doing jobs like this.

Kanetsugu Saiun 210mm slicer; http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Saiun Damascus Series.html


----------



## boar_d_laze

Burr under the saddle? No. The wind from beneath my tail.

Chris, I'm still trying to figure out the reason for posting the link to Salty's video, since you, an acknowledged non-pro are recommending a _completely different technique_ than he illustrated or uses. Got any "real pro" examples? Salty's a great guy, isn't he?

I didn't chop the Brussels sprouts with my 12" suji, I just trimmed them. I've used that suji for far stupider things; and if I were still cooking professionally I'd still be doing dumb things and otherwise messing around with knives. Surreal or just an innocent lad having fun? We report, you deride.

But at any rate, I don't recommend that people incorporate my more egregious improvisations. I stay pretty conservative with instructing.

Speaking of which... In my experience, handle off the back of the board is often a way of preventing banging the knuckles on the board; which in turn usually means the back fingers are rotated too far under the handle. That is, the grip is too "strong," which itself, is often a product of working with dull knives (although I know you keep yours sharp). Depending on the height of the knife at the heel, sometimes you can get away with a "soft" pinch as I described in Getting a Grip. When you're chopping with a very low rise knife it's better (for many) to hold the blade with a "come over the top" pinch; that is, thumb and forefinger in an ordinary pinch on the blade, but holding the handle with finger tips instead of wrapping them under the knife. Of course, cooking is entirely pragmatic, so whatever works for you is perfectly fine.

Hope this helps,

BDL


----------



## ruscal

DELIVERY!

Pics below













one thing which looked a bit weird to me was the place where the knife enters the handle... looks like someones squeezed some kind of resin in there... took some pics below - can you see what i mean? is this normal?


----------



## boar_d_laze

Looks like someone squeezed some resin back there because someone did.  It keeps moisture from getting inside the handle and causing the handle to loosen and/or rusting the tang.

Beautiful knives.  Use them in the best of health.

BDL


----------



## ruscal

at home with their pals


----------



## wagstaff

So what do you think of the ebony now? The Ashi looks like it came from the same slab as the Konosukes in that pic...
!looks great!


----------



## ruscal

thanks guys. yeah, gotta say - i'm really happy with them

now i've just gotta learn to use them properly....! 

oh... and try to stop buying new knives for a while... this is really not a cheap hobby...


----------



## phaedrus

That glue is a frightful site- send me the knife for immediate disposal!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


----------



## ruscal




----------



## chrisbelgium

Very nice quartet in their ebony outfit. Good thinking to have them executed uniformly that way.

I need to ask, Ruskal, don't you feel a strong hesitation to use those beauties? Very nice pieces!


----------



## ruscal

thanks chris

hesitation to use them? heck yeah. i was hungry last night and then remembered i had a mango. no way i'd use these knives to cut something with a stone inside.

for a while at least i'm only gonna use them to chop super safe stuff. potato, carrots, cucumber - that kinda world.

the western handled ones are becoming more like "tool" knives now...


----------



## phaedrus

Okay, you win this round...but we'll revisit this again in a week or two when I have my _Nubatama_ Ryu-Ba!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


----------



## ruscal

what is a _Nubatama_ Ryu-Ba?!?

i've not heard of the company or the knife!!

pics please!!


----------



## phaedrus

It's _en route_ from Japan as we speak! Few have heard of them and far fewer have seen one. They use a "mysterious" steel; there's no info on it that I can find. The knife is handmade but the artist is a mystery. They can only be purchased thru his mediators at Tanaka Toishi. According to the reviews by the lucky few to have used one the blades are spectacular.

A while ago ennui set in; I became bored with the knives I had. So I sold several of them to build a war chest to buy something truly spectacular. Once my PP account hit $400 I was thinking of a Masamoto KS. But when it hit $500 I began to think _maybe a Tanaka in R2.._.But once it hit $600 the wheels started turning in my head. _Maybe I could get something off the charts_.

I will absolutely post pics and some impressions once I get it. Hopefully it lives up to the hype- it's nearly $800 in Japan. I got a "special deal" but it was still a staggering amount of coin for a FT student like me./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


----------



## ruscal

is it a gyuto or a slicer or something else? do you know what length it is gonna be?

...it sounds awesome already and i have no idea what it is!!


----------



## phaedrus

You would call it a 240 mm gyuto.


----------



## wagstaff

Is this to be the infamous Black Steel? Actually, what did go into your assessment of 'something special'? Is this a performance based decision primarily? So many expensive knives, so little cash.


----------



## phaedrus

Yeah, performance. From the pics there's not a lot to distinguish it from any other wa-gyuto. I'm going on the personal experiences of the only two people I know who've used them before. In their experience the things ship with a spectacular edge and seem to hold the edge for an absurd while. Of course, being hand made and hand finished is appealing; I know it will have "character."

Hopefully it will live up to the hype. I just thought_ how many times will I have a shot at getting a knife like this?_ I had the cash built up in my PP account, "found money" if you will. And I was able to get a good price since I know the importer very well. CKtG will be stocking the Nubatamas eventually, too. IIRC mine will be about $800 give or take.


----------



## ruscal

holy crap. just used the konosuke 240mm gyuto.

its a bit like being in the matrix. like it kinda takes the rules of physics with a pinch of salt or something.

either that or it temporarily turns objects into butter whilst in physical contact with them.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Welcome to the Konosuke universe.  Does it change your perception of the generic recommendation to buy "white handle" knives?  How about the pastry chefs' favorites, Wusthof and Henckels?

BDL


----------



## ruscal

push cut is a breeze, pull cut feels like a whole new world. i'm a bit rubbish at the chop so can't really comment on that.

the only thing i found difficult was the rock. didn't quite work the way it normally does - couldn't quite get it in gear.

feels like a whole new set of dynamics involved... really need a mr miyagi to help me work out how to get the most from them though...


----------



## boar_d_laze

Loving it is good. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif

Even minor differences in profiles make a difference in the rocking action. Soft grip, "guillotine and glide," don't hurry, don't try to impose your will on the knife, some practice, and you'll bond with the knife to the point where the right action becomes second nature.

BDL


----------



## ruscal

i hope so... right now when i try to rock cut its like i can feel the blade's pain on the chopping board... 

just to go off on a tangent for a second...

does anyone know a 210mm western handled suji/petty with a POM resin handle?

i want something to practice with so i don't f**k up my 210mm ashi.

right now looks like my choice is between a 240mm masamoto VG suji (kinda expensive) and a 240mm tojiro DP suji (kinda cheap but more chunky handle and layered steel)


----------



## chrisbelgium

Here's a good video on how to perform a cutting motion that will treat your delicate edges more gently like I tried to discribe earlier. It's a culinary school video from Holland, so it's in dutch, but they show really good how to move the knife and how to position the other hand and use this hand to guide the blade without enjuring yourself. The tipsection of the knife doesn't leave the board; you gently slide the tipsection over the board without excersing pression on it. The horizontal cutting movement combined with merely a gentle pression on the heelside of the knife is all you need for very smooth cutting. The cutting movement is the most important movement.

You will not be able to always perform this cutting technique. Button mushrooms cut better in a simple vertical chopping movement imo. Of course when cutting large pieces the tipsection leaves the board. One simple rule is that making a horizontal cutting movement is the most important, combined with a gentle downward movement.

Enjoy;


----------



## ruscal

thanks chris. i get that movement tbh... and i can do it no probs with my masamoto vg

but with the konosuke i find that on the down movement the blade is almost like cutting into the chopping board. which makes the blade feel vulnerable.

which makes the whole thing feel a bit icky.


----------



## chrisbelgium

Aha, ESE symptomes! Or, Extra Sharp Edges...

I had some quite similar experiences with two of my chef knives; my humble 240mm HattoriHD, a damascus VG10, but very thin in the edge area and also with my older Tanaka240mm in CowryX metal which has a very thin (2mm) blade overall, and extra thin in the edge area. When sharpened and finished on my coticule stones, they simply seem to lightly plunge into the board's wood. It feels like slowing down the cutting movement each time the edges touches the board.

Personally, I prefer not to sharpen my gyotos to extremes anymore and certainly not to use too low sharpening angles. On the other hand, petty knives and sujis can't be sharp enough imo.

Look at this interesting comparing image between a MacPro (this one knife is not mine), a HattoriHD and a Gekko. The thickness of a blade, especially around the edge, makes a big difference in cutting "feel". You could almost read from this picture which knife performs best,.. that is when you exclude the "mass" of the knife which is certainly another advantage.

Comparing your Konosuke with your Masamoto must be incredible.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Rus;

Togiharus (EE's house brand) have POM. So do Sabatiers. Masamoto VG are excellent, although it should be said that suji/petties tend to be more like one another than gyutos; and at 8" you're buying a trimming knife more than a boner, parer or slicer -- although it's short enough to do the first three and long enough for the fourth if what you're slicing isn't too big or demand nothing but draw.

Why is POM a must?

Soften your grip (even more) and let the shape of the knife determine the rocking action. Chances are you're lifting the handle too high, and not gliding and drawing the knife enough. You can't win a wrestling match with a profile -- that's why the right profile is so important. Once you've got the belly on the board, you don't want to lift any higher; and once you've rocked down onto the flat part of the edge, you want to allow the knife glide forward. You don't need the extra lift, to add power on the down stroke. Your edge is sharp enough.

Loosen those back fingers. They only need enough tension to keep the knife from falling out of your hand. Relax the thumb and forefinger until they're just strong enough to keep the knife from twisting when cutting through custard. Once your grip is soft, the other adjustments won't take much on your part beyond "unlearning" old habits. It's what the knife wants to do. Tao of the rock-chop, eh?

A big part of why I like my Konosuke gyuto so much is the way it fits my Sabatier action. When I switched from Sabs to a Henckels chef's in the late seventies, I adapted my action to the German knife; and when I went back in the early eighties, it was such a relief to return to a "French" action (or whatever the heck you want to call it).

Chris;

I have to say that the picture has the MAC looking thinner than either of the other knives -- although I know it isn't. Odd. Must be perspective. Not your picture, right?

MAC Pro are not the thinnest of Japanese knives by any means, but are among the stiffest of the high-quality knives. They take and hold better edges than almost any European made knife. There are lots of trade offs in this group of "middle of the high-end" mass-produced, stainless yo-gyuto knives, with different manufacturers taking distinctly different paths. A yo-handle means a thicker tang and handle. Comparative thinness with yo-knives is most apparent when using the back half of the knife, but (a result of "distal tapering") becomes more subtle as you approach the tip.

I recommend MAC Pro so often partly because its stiffness makes it feel more familiar to people coming off a lifetime of western made knives; because the MAC Pro design puts less demand on the technical aspects of keeping the knife square to the cut and board; and for a multitude of other reasons. It's thin enough to be distinctly Japanese, not portly by any means, and without much more tendency to wedge during ordinary prep than, say, a Shun -- or even a Hattori HD or Masamoto VG (another knife I frequently recommend). But as always, your best choices depend on what you seek.

A real laser like a Konosuke and a merely thinnish western handled knife like a Hattori HD, or FH for that matter, are very different. Even very thin yo-gyuto knives like Tadatsuna and Gesshin suffer in comparison to a laser in the sense of benefits provided by anorexia. What a Wusthof Classic is to a Hattori, a thin yo is to a laser. Difficult to even imagine until you've tried one, but true. Ruscal's reaction is typical.

BDL


----------



## boar_d_laze

Jon Broida at Japanese Knife Imports, Gesshin's importer, PMd to say that the wa-Gesshin gyutos are as thin as Konosukes overall, i.e., within normal knife to knife variation, both occupy the same range thickness.  Jon tells me there are other yo-gyuto in the same class.  I trust Jon, of course.

Let me re-make the (minor) point, minus the error.  When it comes to thickness, thin like a yo Hattori and thin like a "laser" (yo or wa) are two different things. 

More important, "thin" is not the be all end all of what makes a good knife.  It's nice, because it "acts sharper" everything else being equal, sharpens easily without being as finicky about edge angles; etc.  But laser thinness has its disadvantages too; especially in that it demands a higher skill level to keep a thin, flexible blade from twisting in the cut.

Worth adding:  No knife of any profile (other than butter) can be too sharp. 

Socrates: Too highly polished? 

BDL: Yes. 

Socrates: Angles too acute? 

BDL: Yes. 

Socrates: Too sharp? 

BDL: No. 

Socrates:  Is it possible Chris and BDL mean something different by "sharp?" 

BDL: Yes. 

Socrates: Does BDL understand?

BDL:  Huh?

Socrates:  Why do some people answer a question with a question?

BDL:  Why shouldn't they?

BDL


----------



## luis j

boar_d_laze said:


> Worth adding: No knife of any profile (other than butter) can be too sharp.
> 
> Socrates: Too highly polished?
> 
> BDL: Yes.
> 
> Socrates: Angles too acute?
> 
> BDL: Yes.
> 
> Socrates: Too sharp?
> 
> BDL: No.
> 
> Socrates: Is it possible Chris and BDL mean something different by "sharp?"
> 
> BDL: Yes.
> 
> Socrates: Does BDL understand?
> 
> BDL: Huh?
> 
> Socrates: Why do some people answer a question with a question?
> 
> BDL: Why shouldn't they?
> 
> BDL


LMAO! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Nice way to explain!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif


----------



## wagstaff

I'm glad you posted Jon's observation -- I asked about it on another thread (which is lost to me at the moment), because I've held both Gesshin Ginga and Konosuke HD knives side by side, sans calipers. Indeed I thought the geometry indistinguishable.  (So other factors in play; the handles, a bit; the steel choices, and the looks of the graphics/logos).

I've never held/seen a Tadatsuna in the flesh; I was under the impression (from forum-talk) that they, too, were "real lasers".  Are they merely "thin"?

I love the Socratic dialogue (monologue?).  While the notion of "sharp" is a bit problematical, the notion of "too sharp?" is downright paradoxical!


----------



## phaedrus

Jon Broida might disagree.  He's spoken before of a knife being "too sharp" and "running away" from the cook while cutting.


----------



## jbroida

Phaedrus said:


> Jon Broida might disagree. He's spoken before of a knife being "too sharp" and "running away" from the cook while cutting.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif


----------



## jbroida

i firmly believe it depends on a number of things such as the task at hand, experience of the used, work environment, etc.


----------



## phaedrus

Nice to see you here, JB!  Good points.  I've certainly come to agree that for many (most?) people going over 5k is a waste of time.


----------



## boar_d_laze

There's a difference in how we define "sharp," probably. To me sharpness a function of how crisply and truly the bevel angles come together at the edge; not their angles; not their symmetry; nor, with the exception of very coarse edges, the degree of polish either. Another way of expressing it is by measurement of the width of the blade on the edge itself. IIRC, less than 2/1000" is sharp, less than 1/1000" is very sharp.

According to _my definition_, a properly sharpened 3K, 20* (40* included), 50/50 edge can be as sharp as a properly sharpened 10K, 8*, chisel edge. Obviously the knives will handle differently, the 3K won't cut glass smooth sashimi while the 10K won't hold up to breaking chickens, but if they are properly sharpened they are equally sharp _by definition_ (my definition).

Maybe it's my fantastic skills (not), but I've never used a knife which was so sharp it ran away from me. I've used knives too sharp to rest on whatever you were cutting, because they'd fall through, but the adjustment on my part didn't take much. A few years ago, I was breaking a chicken with a 12" carbon Sabatier and the phone rang. I unconsciously let the knife rest on a wing tip, and it cut completely through. I had a similar experience cutting an onion with KC's Tadatsuna (which made me want a laser). Moral of the story: Adjusting for that kind of sharpness doesn't take more than awareness. If stuff happens when you're not paying attention, blame your lack of focus not the knife.

I've noticed that knives with a lot of asymmetry tend to steer, the harder the grip the greater the propensity -- but that's not too sharp, that's inappropriate symmetry (e.g., a lefty using a righty chisel edge), and lousy knife skills. If you hold the knife square to the cut you want to make, and don't choke it, it will steer, yes; but in the direction you want it to go.

If you drive your ZR1 off the road because you're asleep at the wheel, the problem isn't too much horsepower. If it doesn't handle well pulling your Airstream, the problem still isn't too much horsepower.

I don't see leaving or creating a less than very sharp edge as the solution to many prep problems. If there's such a thing as too sharp -- at least according to how I define "sharpness" -- I've yet to see it.

Could be wrong,

BDL


----------



## phaedrus

On this matter I could not agree with you more, BDL.  I was merely repeating statements JB made at another forum.  But now that he's here he can probably clarify his views.  And of course, correct me if I misunderstood him or put words in his mouth.  I'm just recalling some conversations from several months ago; I'd have to re-read the posts to comment any more.  IIRC it concerned the opinions of Japanese culinary professionals...they tend to use different cutting techniques and ingredients not used widely here.


----------



## chrisbelgium

Quote:


Wagstaff said:


> While the notion of "sharp" is a bit problematical, the notion of "too sharp?" is downright paradoxical!


Too sharp is paradoxal? I did not use the expression "too sharp". But, how about people putting a tiny secondary edge with a wider angle on a knife, to protect a too thin edge, aka extremely sharpened edge?

One thing with sharpening knives to extremes is that the extreme sharp-edge sensation or feel disappears too soon and urges for resharpening, also too soon, well imo, dunno about Socrates & C°.

I kind of agree with Phaedrus that 5k is somewhat more than enough and as I said certainly for my gyotos, not for my petty's and sujis which can't be sharpened enough.

P.S. Hello Jon, been a while.


----------



## wagstaff

ChrisBelgium said:


> Quote:
> 
> Too sharp is paradoxal? I did not use the expression "too sharp".


Hi Chris -- I wasn't accusing you of using the expression "too sharp"! Not directed your way at all; my comment was meant to express appreciation of humor in the new-Socratic-dialogue, irrespective of prior posts. I hadn't read your post (recently) when I commented. I think your points about how sharp you want a knife in a practical sense are all groovy.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Posted by *ChrisBelgium* 


> But, how about people putting a tiny secondary edge with a wider angle on a knife, to protect a too thin edge, aka extremely sharpened edge?


I can't speak to others' motivations, but the usual reason to do a double bevel or a micro-bevel (which may or may not be the same things) is to thin the non-cutting bevel enough to prevent wedging, cut down on the need to true on a rod hone, and cut down on the need to go all the way down to coarse grits for re-profiling; while creating a sturdy, durable edge which can easily be trued on a steel, or touched up at a fairly fine grits.

Some knives and purposes seem to like double bevels, others not so much. I do it on heavy duty knives that get a lot of abuse, like my chef de chef and cleaver. A 15/10 makes a MAC Pro sing, but doesn't do much for a Masamoto VG-10.

Sometimes in the process of learning the best edge angles for a knife, you do bevel too acutely. If you do, adding a second more obtuse cutting bevel, on top of the thinned section can save you a lot of work (and metal) trying to re-profile a flat bevel all the way from edge to blade face. This happens to me with almost every new knife as I learn its limits.

When a "too thin edge" bends too easily, it's not just too acute, it's a "wire edge." Wires are typically more acute than the bevel angles and accordingly are very weak, with a tendency to bend (aka burr) easily. Where they bend they fatigue and become weaker still. Wires are a common problem with newer sharpeners, and it's important to know what to do. Treat them as with any burr; chase and thoroughly deburr. The deburring will reveal a fresh, metal edge with the same angles as the bevel, and... Problem solved.


> One thing with sharpening knives to extremes is that the extreme sharp-edge sensation or feel disappears too soon and urges for resharpening, also too soon, well imo, dunno about Socrates & C°.


What do you mean by "extremes?" A lot of polish? Very acute bevel angles? Both? Something else?

If you do use very acute bevel angles, which angles for which knives? This doesn't directly relate to the issues at hand, but I'm curious. How does changing angles according to knife and use (if you do) go with your advice to sharpen at a "natural" angle for one's hand, as opposed to trying for a particular angle?

Another definitional problem: I'm not sure if I get your use of the term "too soon" or not. Do I understand you correctly to mean that if a user misses his "fresh off the stones" sensation of sharpness, the best way to deal with that is not sharpen the knife too sharp (acute? polish? combination?) to begin with?

Maybe you or someone with greater professional expertise than I have can clear this up, but it's hard not to feel you're talking about a wire edge.

BDL


----------



## jbroida

Phaedrus said:


> On this matter I could not agree with you more, BDL. I was merely repeating statements JB made at another forum. But now that he's here he can probably clarify his views. And of course, correct me if I misunderstood him or put words in his mouth. I'm just recalling some conversations from several months ago; I'd have to re-read the posts to comment any more. IIRC it concerned the opinions of Japanese culinary professionals...they tend to use different cutting techniques and ingredients not used widely here.


no... i think you guys have the idea... that falling through food without a sense of what is going on with cut is what i call running (well i didnt make it up... its a commonly used phrase among chefs and professional sharpeners in Japan). You are correct in noting that it is an issue of awareness. I agree with that to an extent. However, there are edge types that feel slippery or are beyond ones ability to be aware. More importantly, however, is that there is a range in which the sharpness yields the best cut and best feeling... that balance for each person, task, and knife will be different, but going beyond that doesnt make much sense (i.e. where the value gained by the increase in sharpness is less that the value lost by the decrease in feeling).

Also, my statement only speaks to grit refinement, not the acuteness of the angle. That is an entirely different issue... finding a balance between toughness and less wedging while cutting. You can have the running problem on acute and obtuse edges alike.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Posted by *JBroida* 


> Also, my statement only speaks to grit refinement, not the acuteness of the angle. That is an entirely different issue... finding a balance between toughness and less wedging while cutting. You can have the running problem on acute and obtuse edges alike.


Figured you meant something like that, and note that any differences we have are definitional. At some fairly low point of "grit refinement," I don't think the knife gets significantly "sharper," but you do and I understand why. FWIW, I'd say that a lot of polish makes the knife more "slippery," rather than sharper. Of course, it depends on the stone as well as the grit. Sharpening terms are seldom nailed down with precision, and it's good to be on the same page even if it took 148 posts and still counting.

The waste of time involved in polishing edges far beyond their ability to hold it is also a powerful argument to stay within appropriate limits for a given knife. That's probably a combined function of "scratch hardness," and type of use. On the other hand, some fairly soft knives, like carbon Sabatiers, can hold a surprisingly high degree of polish. I don't think 3K - 5K is overkill, but considering they measure at around 55RCH you'd expect less.

FWIW, from a materials standpoint, there are three types of metallurgical hardness which pertain to knives. They are impact hardness, scratch hardness and indentation hardness. Rockwell hardness is indentation hardness, and Rockwell "C" hardness -- usually the only information available from knife manufacturers and retailers -- refers to a particular test. As I understand it, indentation hardness tracks the other two types fairly well, but stress that I'm just someone who merely reads and remembers, not a materials guy and certainly not a metallurgist. I don't even play one on TV.

BDL


----------



## chrislehrer

Jon, you're wrong. I've read Jon Broida, and you don't understand him. Allow me to interpret for your measly intelligence. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif (And incidentally, you owe me an email, you rotter)

An overly sharp knife is so fine-toothed that it feels slick on the surface of what is cut. I read Broida's description of this somewhere and it totally clicked: I've had that happen. It _never_ happens when slicing raw fish, because the flesh simply doesn't have enough firmness to push back very effectively. But when you cut a carrot or a potato, you can find that the knife is just gliding and you have this funny feeling that it's sliding rather than cutting. That's too sharp -- or to be more precise, I suppose, it's overly _polished_. In essence, you've taken the level of polish past what it ought to be for this use.

Results:

As I read it, fish-butchering is a debatable point, with the hot-shot guy at Le Bernardin saying you should keep it not too polished, and others saying BS, and endless fights ensue (involving very sharp knives, so guys, let's make sure this happens on Pay Per View so we can all enjoy it and some people get paid, OK?).

Vegetable cutting requires a very good edge, and a very polished one, but it seems to depend a lot on your cutting style, knife, and some other factors just how high is too high. I figure you sharpen until it's too much and then next time don't go that high.

Fish slicing can't go too high, because the limiting factor is the knife, not the fish, so polish to perfection and get ludicrous.

For meat butchering and cutting, you're on your own -- I have no measures to go by.


----------



## jbroida

I used to agree with you on the fish thing, but i spent quite a bit of time with some very talented japanese chefs who beg to differ. The things they showed me in cutting technique and what i should be looking/feeling for changed my mind. I now stand behind the belief that my previous statement is true for all food cutting. Where i do agree, is that within a range, there are some differences of what works best for specific types of food. But with all of them, you should really be able to feel the cut. Especially with fish (which is where the "knife running" phrase came from).

P.S. Hi to everyone i didnt say hi to yet... glad to see some familiar faces.



ChrisLehrer said:


> Jon, you're wrong. I've read Jon Broida, and you don't understand him. Allow me to interpret for your measly intelligence. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif (And incidentally, you owe me an email, you rotter)
> 
> An overly sharp knife is so fine-toothed that it feels slick on the surface of what is cut. I read Broida's description of this somewhere and it totally clicked: I've had that happen. It _never_ happens when slicing raw fish, because the flesh simply doesn't have enough firmness to push back very effectively. But when you cut a carrot or a potato, you can find that the knife is just gliding and you have this funny feeling that it's sliding rather than cutting. That's too sharp -- or to be more precise, I suppose, it's overly _polished_. In essence, you've taken the level of polish past what it ought to be for this use.
> 
> Results:
> 
> As I read it, fish-butchering is a debatable point, with the hot-shot guy at Le Bernardin saying you should keep it not too polished, and others saying BS, and endless fights ensue (involving very sharp knives, so guys, let's make sure this happens on Pay Per View so we can all enjoy it and some people get paid, OK?).
> 
> Vegetable cutting requires a very good edge, and a very polished one, but it seems to depend a lot on your cutting style, knife, and some other factors just how high is too high. I figure you sharpen until it's too much and then next time don't go that high.
> 
> Fish slicing can't go too high, because the limiting factor is the knife, not the fish, so polish to perfection and get ludicrous.
> 
> For meat butchering and cutting, you're on your own -- I have no measures to go by.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Chris,

No need to get personal.  Sorry if it seems challenging, but I really can't make sense of what you're suggesting and would like to do so.  It would be nice to know what practical advice you're giving, as I certainly don't know everything and am always ready to learn.

I'm left with the same questions:  Do you take your sujis and petties to extreme angles AND extreme polish, or just one or the other?  At what angles do you sharpen your various knves?  I ask because I'm curious, think others might be also, and you haven't said.  

The thing about your advice to use "natural sharpening angles" is also a real question.  I don't see how you can consistently sharpen different angles for different knives if you don't use some sort of objective benchmark, and would like to know. 

BDL


----------



## wagstaff

JBroida said:


> P.S. Hi to everyone i didnt say hi to yet... glad to see some familiar faces.


Hi back, Jon! Your name comes up with some frequency -- it's really good to have you post here.


----------



## chrislehrer

BDL:



boar_d_laze said:


> Chris,
> 
> No need to get personal.


I assume you're talking to ChrisBelgium, right? I hope it was clear that my little zap at Jon was a joke, and I do think he took it that way.

Jon:

I am amazed that one can encounter a "running edge" in fish-cutting, but if you say so, I know you and your sources have a lot more experience than I do. I don't know if you have read Anthony Bourdain's book _Medium Raw_, but there is an interesting profile of the guy who breaks down almost all fish at Le Bernardin -- a very, very talented cutter -- and he swears that one's knives must not be excessively sharp, by which I think he means that they should not be over-polished to form this "running edge." It's an interesting piece.

Do you have any sense of a sort of rule-of-thumb for us non-experts? I'm thinking along the lines of "take a deba to roughly 2k, an usuba to maybe 6k at most, and a yanagiba no higher than 10k." (The numbers here are shots in the dark, but this is the kind of rough list I'm hoping for.)


----------



## jbroida

Because fish flesh can yeild so easily, its more difficult to get a sense of the kind of bite you need, but the idea is that the knife doesnt just fall through the fish or slice super fast the second you move the knife. You want just enough bite that you can feel as the cut is being made. Does this make sense? Its almost like a slight resistance, but not quite... just the teeth doing the cutting. The thing is that the blade needs to still be very sharp... it shouldnt be tearing the food at all.

As far as a rule of thumb, i have yet to see a pro chef or pro sharpener in japan (that i have respect for... as in they are good at their job in my eyes) finish above 8k for anything (excepting natural stones). I would say you would be ok with a 4-8k finish on any of those blades. Really, a lot has to do with personal preference and the particular task at hand more than anything else. For what its worth, i like my debas higher than 2k... usually near 4-6 (sometimes even 8)



ChrisLehrer said:


> BDL:
> 
> I assume you're talking to ChrisBelgium, right? I hope it was clear that my little zap at Jon was a joke, and I do think he took it that way.
> 
> Jon:
> 
> I am amazed that one can encounter a "running edge" in fish-cutting, but if you say so, I know you and your sources have a lot more experience than I do. I don't know if you have read Anthony Bourdain's book _Medium Raw_, but there is an interesting profile of the guy who breaks down almost all fish at Le Bernardin -- a very, very talented cutter -- and he swears that one's knives must not be excessively sharp, by which I think he means that they should not be over-polished to form this "running edge." It's an interesting piece.
> 
> Do you have any sense of a sort of rule-of-thumb for us non-experts? I'm thinking along the lines of "take a deba to roughly 2k, an usuba to maybe 6k at most, and a yanagiba no higher than 10k." (The numbers here are shots in the dark, but this is the kind of rough list I'm hoping for.)


----------



## boar_d_laze

8K you say?  Hmmm.  Nice.  Does Ken know? 

8K-ish is my favorite level for both of my Konosuke HDs.  It's overkill on the Sabatiers, as the polish doesn't last long enough -- same for the Konosuke SS petty.  It's completely wasted on the Forschners and either of the heavy duty specialists.

There are a whole bunch of stones in the 8K - 12K group which pretty much do the same thing(s).   I'm not going to say they're fungible, exactly.  But kinda.  As Jon knows I've been using a Naniwa SS 8K for some time (the last one a cast off from a mutual friend) and have become disenchanted -- not with the grip but with the particular stone.  For one thing, it's worn out; for another, it's very soft, doesn't dry easily, and is an all around PITA to maintain;  The most important criticism is too much shine, not enough cut.  If I'm going to the trouble of polishing I want a refined, low-friction edge; and don't care what it looks like.  Jon tells me he sells the wonder 8K of the 21st Century.  One of these days, soon, I'm going to get my tuchis over there and buy one.

Sometimes I play with loaded strops, and when I polish to an 0.5u chromium oxide, the edge is too smooth and slippery, so I have to finish with an 0.25u diamond to get some bite.  You could call 0.5u the equivalent of a 30K stone and 0.25u equivalent to a 60K stone but it doesn't work that as a practical matter, at least for me.  0.5u CrO is a popular finish for "cut throat" razors, but I'd say it's off the scale and too much polish for cutting food; while an 0.25u diamond not only works okay but holds up.  An edge finished on the 0.25u diamond and one finished on 1u boron do about the same thing, but feel different in the cut -- especially starting the cut.   

I have a Chosera 10K (magnesia binder) for my EP, and it fits in the same group. 

Moral of the story?  Beats me.

BDL


----------



## jbroida

I agree that there are some steels that the effect is lost on... the ones you mention are fine examples.

As far as the 8k thing... its more of a rule of thumb than something hard and fast... the chocera 10k leaves a lot of bite for its grit. Dont tell anyone i told you guys but in japan there is no cotified system for measuring grit over 8k... above that its the manufacturers word. Thankfully many of them do a good job, but its something to note. They did once explain to me how they did that refinement and got to those numbers. It was very interesting.

For what its worth, i dont really strop much... especially with compounds. I always shoot for 99% clean off the stones... and then i clean up with some newspaper or something like that (dry not wet).

On the subject of crazy high grits, i've had a lot of conversations with a number of professional sharpeners, knife makers, and chefs in japan about this... they all laughed at me and told me i was stupid for going that crazy high... i had just bought a 20,000 grit stone and had some 15,000 grit ones made. Oh well. I like the crazy edges something, but i used things like that more for achieving a particular look more than anything else. It just doesnt do it for me anymore on cutting edge.


boar_d_laze said:


> 8K you say? Hmmm. Nice. Does Ken know?
> 
> 8K-ish is my favorite level for both of my Konosuke HDs. It's overkill on the Sabatiers, as the polish doesn't last long enough -- same for the Konosuke SS petty. It's completely wasted on the Forschners and either of the heavy duty specialists.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of stones in the 8K - 12K group which pretty much do the same thing(s). I'm not going to say they're fungible, exactly. But kinda. As Jon knows I've been using a Naniwa SS 8K for some time (the last one a cast off from a mutual friend) and have become disenchanted -- not with the grip but with the particular stone. For one thing, it's worn out; for another, it's very soft, doesn't dry easily, and is an all around PITA to maintain; The most important criticism is too much shine, not enough cut. If I'm going to the trouble of polishing I want a refined, low-friction edge; and don't care what it looks like. Jon tells me he sells the wonder 8K of the 21st Century. One of these days, soon, I'm going to get my tuchis over there and buy one.
> 
> Sometimes I play with loaded strops, and when I polish to an 0.5u chromium oxide, the edge is too smooth and slippery, so I have to finish with an 0.25u diamond to get some bite. You could call 0.5u the equivalent of a 30K stone and 0.25u equivalent to a 60K stone but it doesn't work that as a practical matter, at least for me. 0.5u CrO is a popular finish for "cut throat" razors, but I'd say it's off the scale and too much polish for cutting food; while an 0.25u diamond not only works okay but holds up. An edge finished on the 0.25u diamond and one finished on 1u boron do about the same thing, but feel different in the cut -- especially starting the cut.
> 
> I have a Chosera 10K (magnesia binder) for my EP, and it fits in the same group.
> 
> Moral of the story? Beats me.
> 
> BDL


----------



## boar_d_laze

Like the EP, the strops are a playground of otherness.  That you can get an actual edge out of either (or both) is a bonus.  They work within my real sharpening kit like your ultra-grits work in yours.  We are so on the same page.  Oh well. 

Let's fight about sashimi places.  What do you say?   

BDL


----------



## jbroida

you like those korean places and my Japanese wife would kick my ass for that 



boar_d_laze said:


> Like the EP, the strops are a playground of otherness. That you can get an actual edge out of either (or both) is a bonus. They work within my real sharpening kit like your ultra-grits work in yours. We are so on the same page. Oh well.
> 
> Let's fight about sashimi places. What do you say?
> 
> BDL


----------



## wagstaff

I was going to interject several n00b questions about stropping between some posts above.  Glad I waited, because I think it's all been answered -- if not in full, in full enough for now.

I think that 8K Gesshin stone is in my future, too.  Maybe a bit distant future....


----------



## boar_d_laze

Go ahead and ask your questions.  Phaedrus is a bigger fan of stropping than I am (and presumably Jon), and knows a lot about it.  I do strop (sometimes), am "informed" and competent, but not  more than that.  You'll get two sane perspectives, which will probably be more helpful than the wave of zealot responses you'd get on one of the specialty knife sites. 

Speaking of which, you ought to consider joining a couple and hanging out.  You have the knowledge base, and definitely the curiosity.  What's nice about knives in CT is that the discussions tend to stick to a food prep context without trending too much towards collecting, hobbyism and a "cost is no barrier" pursuit of an illusory "best."  On the other hand, there's usually not a lot of depth; and there's a heckuva lot of repetition on three or four subjects. 

Time for you to play in a bigger sandbox. 

BDL


----------



## macmiddlebrooks

I come here to "get away" from the other, more intense forums.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Posted by *JBroida* 


> you like those korean places and my Japanese wife would kick my ass for that


It would serve you right gaijin boy.

We could go to Echigo, which is (a) in West LA on Santa Monica just west of Bundy, and (b) purely Japanese. Warm, loose rice and all that. I haven't been there for a long time.

You will adore the Korean version of a sushi-ya. She probably will as well, but you'll have to ease her into it. I'm not sure what the percentage is, but I believe a majority of sushi-ya in Los Angeles are actually Korean owned. Kaya Sushi on Washington, just east of Lincoln, is Korean owned. It used to be very good, but -- as I say -- been a while.

BDL


----------



## jbroida

haha... i know. Thats why our initial judge of a place is whether or not we can speak in japanese to them. In all honesty, we dont even get to sushi that much anymore... too many other places to go to. Tomorrow, a new popup restaurant done by a friend/customer. Then this weekend, another customers restaurant. Next week, INK, Tasting Kitchen, and Yakitoriya (and maybe a couple others).

Now that i've typed it up, makes me think i need to eat at home more. 



boar_d_laze said:


> Posted by *JBroida*
> 
> It would serve you right gaijin boy.
> 
> We could go to Echigo, which is (a) in West LA on Santa Monica just west of Bundy, and (b) purely Japanese. Warm, loose rice and all that. I haven't been there for a long time.
> 
> You will adore the Korean version of a sushi-ya. She probably will as well, but you'll have to ease her into it. I'm not sure what the percentage is, but I believe a majority of sushi-ya in Los Angeles are actually Korean owned. Kaya Sushi on Washington, just east of Lincoln, is Korean owned. It used to be very good, but -- as I say -- been a while.
> 
> BDL


----------



## wagstaff

boar_d_laze said:


> Speaking of which, you ought to consider joining a couple and hanging out. ...
> 
> Time for you to play in a bigger sandbox.
> 
> BDL


A couple? Some words missing?

Late night home. I have to formulate what I want to ask about stropping -- 'cause I do want to ask. Getting home too late from work to think about it right now.


----------



## boar_d_laze

[Joining a couple of] specialty knife sites, for instance: KF, Fred's, or kitchenknifefourms.

BDL


----------



## wagstaff

gotcha -- I'm already on Fred's and kitchenknifeforums... don't post a lot, but try to keep up with new posts.  I don't know KF.


----------



## phaedrus

FWIW, regardless of one's opinion on whether or not a knife can be too sharp for fish I think most of us agree a knife can never be too sharp for herbs.


----------



## petemccracken

Phaedrus said:


> FWIW, regardless of one's opinion on whether or not a knife can be too sharp for fish I think most of us agree a knife can never be too sharp for herbs.


Yeah, but what does Herb know /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif, oh wait, that wasn't capitalized and is plural, my mistake /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


----------



## ruscal

hey BDL

so, couple of questions....

1) what k do you sharpen your Konosuke SS to? also what angle do you like for this knife?

2) same questions but re Masamoto VG


boar_d_laze said:


> 8K-ish is my favorite level for both of my Konosuke HDs. It's overkill on the Sabatiers, as the polish doesn't last long enough -- same for the Konosuke SS petty.
> 
> BDL


----------



## ruscal

PS: i went ahead and bought a 240mm Masamoto VG suji. just want something to practice on without damaging my Ashi.

want to be able to do this:


----------



## boar_d_laze

I sharpen the K SS to 3K because it's a petty, not because it's stainless.  8K didn't really work for the non-abusive purposes and certainly didn't hold up to the abuse my little knives get.  This isn't a "do as I do" situation.  People use their knives differently, and should sharpen for their own purposes.

All the Konosukes are currently sharpened at around 12ish.  I "opened" my first (270HD gyuto) considerably steeper and with a lot of asymmetry, ala KC but not quite as extreme.  It was stupid sharp alright, but I was less than thrilled with durability. I'm still getting stupid sharpness AND better durability at 12.  This leads to the thought that edge angle doesn't matters as much with super thin knives as it does with more "normal" thickness. 15 would probably be indistinguishable from 12, and that's where I'm going next.   

BDL


----------



## jbroida

you may want to check this youtube channel out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/japaneseknifesociety#p/u

Here are a couple of videos that might of of interest:





















ruscal said:


> PS: i went ahead and bought a 240mm Masamoto VG suji. just want something to practice on without damaging my Ashi.
> 
> want to be able to do this:


----------



## wagstaff

Phaedrus said:


> It's _en route_ from Japan as we speak! Few have heard of them and far fewer have seen one. They use a "mysterious" steel; there's no info on it that I can find. The knife is handmade but the artist is a mystery. They can only be purchased thru his mediators at Tanaka Toishi. According to the reviews by the lucky few to have used one the blades are spectacular.
> ....
> 
> I will absolutely post pics and some impressions once I get it. ....


I just saw pics on Fred's.... it's beautiful! Congratulations!


----------



## ruscal

the 240mm masamoto suji has arrived! and its a beaut!

i haven't had a chance to use it too much yet. i had a quick go with it prepping a mango and the size and length are real comfortable. i'm looking forward to practicing with it.

here's a quick pic of the suji with my masamoto gyotu. they're both supposed to be 240mm, but actually the gyuto's blade is 9 inches long and the suji's blade is 9.5 inches long.


----------



## ruscal

just ordered a 210mm masamoto vg gyuto

the 240mm just feels too hard core for home cooking


----------



## wagstaff

I prefer 270! I use a 210mm petty a lot though. I see people talk about having a 270mm and a 210mm
gyuto, but I don't really understand. On the other hand, I always need to put the board away, and sometimes need to hassle with clearing space for it on the counter again before next prep. So if that's the problem, I *do* understand!


----------



## lennyd

Wag I am curious as to what you find you are using your 210 petty for?

I ask because I am considering a similar longer petty as opposed to a Suji due to cost, and the idea that I am thinking I may get more use from the petty since it can double as a slicer when needed, but also would have other uses that I think would be easier than with a longer Suji, and if I do need to slice something longer why not just use one of the gyuto's etc.

I still think having a dedicated slicer is a good idea, and would like to add a Suji (or even a yanagi too one day) to my mix, but I am thinking it may be better to add one later rather than sooner due to cost and the fact I just picked up a Konosuke HD that set me back nearly as much as all my previous J knives combined (wow are my expectations high on this ones performance lol).

Actually long before I ordered the HD I had thought the next purchase would be a Suji, but after some thought about which knife I make the most use of and a strong curiosity of the higher end knives and the different steels used etc I decided it would make more sense to move up the quality ladder on the gyuto, and put off buying a slicer for a bit longer.

Also I can understand the need for a smaller knife as well. I know the need can vary and especially between those working professionally and the typical home cook, but I have found that on many an occasion a small board and a small knife come in pretty handy. That includes when I grab the santoku or even when the 120 petty is all that is needed for a small fast job etc.

I still agree with the many others who believe and often recommend something longer (especially when it comes to a chefs or gyuto etc) as it can obviously be more productive, but it is not always about speed, and even more so for the home cook.


----------



## ruscal

LennyD said:


> I still agree with the many others who believe and often recommend something longer (especially when it comes to a chefs or gyuto etc) as it can obviously be more productive, but it is not always about speed, and even more so for the home cook.


totally agree. if i was a line cook spending 8 hrs a day chopping veg then i would totally go for a 270mm or a 240mm gyuto. i can see how that extra length would be crazy useful over the course of the day, speeding things up considerably.

but at home i chop for maybe 20 mins tops. a 210mm gyuto for home use seems totally legit to me.

i do find i use the 240mm suji a lot though. its great for fruit; i eat a lot of mango and its perfect for that.

if i had to reduce my knives down to just 4 i think i would go:
270mm scalloped bread

240mm suji

210mm gyuto

150mm petty

those lengths are based on using western handles. if i was going with japanese handles, then i'd probably add 30mm to each of those lengths.


----------



## wagstaff

LennyD said:


> Wag I am curious as to what you find you are using your 210 petty for?
> 
> I ask because I am considering a similar longer petty as opposed to a Suji due to cost, and the idea that I am thinking I may get more use from the petty since it can double as a slicer when needed, but also would have other uses that I think would be easier than with a longer Suji, and if I do need to slice something longer why not just use one of the gyuto's etc.
> 
> I still think having a dedicated slicer is a good idea, and would like to add a Suji (or even a yanagi too one day) to my mix, but I am thinking it may be better to add one later... [snip]
> 
> I still agree with the many others who believe and often recommend something longer (especially when it comes to a chefs or gyuto etc) as it can obviously be more productive, but it is not always about speed, and even more so for the home cook.


Hi Lenny --

My 210 suji is used a whole lot, but not always for "good" reasons. It's a laser, and my only laser, and I kind of fell in love with it enough to use it "too much". To the point I was using it in hand, even, where a shorter knife would make more sense. I'm settling down, now, no worries! But still, I'll use it for quick jobs where others would use a gyuto. Where it might not be "the best tool" but it's super easy to use with an over-the-top grip, or with my hand off the board, for small jobs. And it's an ideal knife for fruit (like ruscal is saying).

I eat vegetarian, and cook that way almost always, so it's perfectly fine for cutting up a shallot or some smaller potatoes and tomatoes and such.

Preferring the 270mm gyuto to a shorter one is not only about quantity, though. Or speed. I find that for my cutting, and for my *learning to cut better,* the longer knife is just flat out better. And now that I've put it through a couple more sharpenings, I'm in love all over again with that knife, too. The longer blade is not only about productivity, it's about cutting motion, period. The "tip down" work is more versatile -- that is, the back the knife has more clearance without lifting my cutting hand as much, whether doing rough slicing or attempting to be more precise with a julienne or any other classical cut. It's just a whole lot easier. There's less shoulder lift trying to keep my wrist in line with pointing the knife. It requires less forward thrust, which means less "board contact" per mm of blade, which means it stays sharp longer, and just feels smoother.

All that said, I'm rethinking what I wrote in the previous post, and would probably use a 210mm gyuto if I had a laser in such a length, in place of some tasks where I use the petty/suji. But were I to have only a 270mm gyuto, I'd still buy the short suji before another gyuto. (Which is what I did, basically). Some of my original reasoning for that was what you're talking about, Lenny. Just cost, after having spent (for me) a lot on the gyuto.

I have a Sab 6" slicer and a pretty redundant 150mm Togiharu petty as well, where they might be more useful than the 210 suji for some things. I think if I were portioning meat, for example, the 6" knife is perfect. I've done that twice in the past year, though, and could have gotten by ok with the 210mm knife just fine. And yeah, I think you can do what you're thinking, use a short slicer for slicing and just to check out the shape in a laser. It might eventually get redundant -- that is, between your shorter petty and your eventual longer sujihiki. But if you're not slicing large roasts or hams and such, where you want clean slices on one draw, then you can wait on the longer suji.

BDL fell so in love with his big Konosuke HD suji (300mm, I believe?) that he described using it in place of the gyuto for most things. But that was partly for fun and experiment to tell us about, and partly because (I speculate) of how freaking sharp he gets it and how soft and over the top his normal grip is, that knuckle clearance is just not much of an issue. Sort of like Segovia said about why he used an awkard fingering for the lightning fast bridge section of the first Villa-Lobos etude. "Because I CAN".

Anyway, with all that, it boils down to: the 210 suji is a more versatile knife than one might think, but perhaps I use it where I would otherwise use a 150mm petty had I an equally good laser in that length; and the 270mm knife just makes more sense to me than a shorter gyuto even for smaller jobs. For your purposes -- and based on thought, not experience with this -- the 210mm suji makes even more sense than it does for me, I think: that is, doing smaller meat-slicing jobs. And I'll bet you find yourself using either a gyuto or the 210mm suji in place of whatever you're currently, occasionally, using a santoku for.

Speaking of versatility -- what do you (everybody) use a bread knife for, besides bread? There's a video of a pro using it for large batches of cherry tomatoes, cut something-like bagel-style horizontally. And I"m not sure without revisiting, but I think Norman Weinstein uses it for cutting pineapple. Do the assembled think this is a good idea? (Particularly the pineapple part?) What else?


----------



## wagstaff

Geez that looks long again.  SORRY.  I hope it's not as all-over-the-place as my previous stupid-long post.  Still I want to add -- ruscal has a good point.  For the petty and the gyuto, I'm talking wa-handles, which are generally shorter by a bit.


----------



## lennyd

ruscal said:


> totally agree. if i was a line cook spending 8 hrs a day chopping veg then i would totally go for a 270mm or a 240mm gyuto. i can see how that extra length would be crazy useful over the course of the day, speeding things up considerably.
> 
> but at home i chop for maybe 20 mins tops. a 210mm gyuto for home use seems totally legit to me.
> 
> i do find i use the 240mm suji a lot though. its great for fruit; i eat a lot of mango and its perfect for that.
> 
> if i had to reduce my knives down to just 4 i think i would go:
> 270mm scalloped bread
> 
> 240mm suji
> 
> 210mm gyuto
> 
> 150mm petty
> 
> those lengths are based on using western handles. if i was going with japanese handles, then i'd probably add 30mm to each of those lengths.


First curious of the why behind your thoughts on going 30mm longer on the Japanese handles?

I do agree with both you and Wag on the idea that if needing to slice larger cuts of meat etc a longer slicer would be a big benefit, but somehow when I think of this I am finding myself looking at 300mm or at least 270mm, and unless that really rarely is the case (larger etc) it just seems to be the way to go.

Though I have used several smaller gyuto including a 180mm and found them all fine for the job at hand (actually the 180 I have used is a Tojiro DP and was very good for the job at hand, and the smaller board that was available at the time) and I know most home cooks are used to the 8" or 210mm chefs/gyuto that is supplied in most block sets etc I really find that the thinner, lighter, and sharper 240mm Fujiwara that I have been using the past year has become a true extension of my hand, and more than once I have speculated that a longer blade (maybe not as long as the 12" "woostie" that I used many times when learning) would have been a benefit.

So I still have the idea of a 270 gyuto in the back of my mind, but I really believe that for my current use and needs the 240mm is absolutely fine, and I just do not need the added expense of the 270mm etc.

All that said I am still needing to think and research more on the idea of the smaller 210mm range petty/slicer vs a longer Suji to find which I believe will produce more use or "bang for the buck" for my needs. I have all but removed the heavy full finger grip (have actually been moving from that without even realizing even before getting into J knives while my previous Henckels were actually becoming sharper due to boredom from unemployment lol) so I do not think that currently the blade height will cause any issues, but I am going to have to pay attention to how often I would really benefit from a 300mm Suji and then compare what I think about how much more use a 210mm could give, if any.

I did have a Henckels Pro S 8" slicer previously, and it did get some use, but primarily as a slicer only, and I do not recall actually using it for other jobs. Could have been for many reasons, but I can not be sure. Since that is about the same length as Wags petty I have to think I would have to find more use for it, and also that it may actually cover what I normally run into that needs slicing etc. and still can always revert to the gyuto anyway.

Have to admit that BDL has a way of writing that makes things "glow" or "sing" etc, and being his thoughts come from more of a professional/actual cooking use position they really make more sense to me than many of the enthusiasts or collectors, and I am sure his love affair with the Konosuke HD had a big affect on my decision to get one (damn I hope he is right lmao, jk) but also like I have said more than once before having a level headed non fanatical opinion has been so helpful I can not thank him enough.

Still remember he comes from a professional background, and some of the things discussed are difficult for someone who is and will continue to be a home cook to fully grasp. Not that I spent all that many years myself (had a hard time giving up all those nights and weekends lol) in this, but just being part of a small restaurants staff when things get crazy busy and things start flying etc just leaves a impression on you that is hard to forget.

Anyhow this is going to be a hard decision as have the previous ones, and I just hope I do not over think things too much just once again


----------



## wagstaff

LennyD said:


> First curious of the why behind your thoughts on going 30mm longer on the Japanese handles?....


They're measured differently. wa-handled knives are measured from the ferrule to the tip, so some of the length in the mm measurement is neck length, where there's no edge.

Jon shows his Gesshin Ginga line in this video: 




At about 2:35 he shows in passing the different measurements, with yo- and wa- handled knives next to each other.


----------



## jbroida

Wagstaff said:


> They're measured differently. wa-handled knives are measured from the ferrule to the tip, so some of the length in the mm measurement is neck length, where there's no edge.
> 
> Jon shows his Gesshin Ginga line in this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At about 2:35 he shows in passing the different measurements, with yo- and wa- handled knives next to each other.


In sakai (and some other places) wa- handled knives with machi (not the gap, but the change in thickness from the neck of the knife to the tang) are measured from the handle to the tip. Knives without machi (deba, etc.) and western handled knives are measured from the heel to the tip. That accounts for the differences in edge length.


----------



## lennyd

JBroida said:


> In sakai (and some other places) wa- handled knives with machi (not the gap, but the change in thickness from the neck of the knife to the tang) are measured from the handle to the tip. Knives without machi (deba, etc.) and western handled knives are measured from the heel to the tip. That accounts for the differences in edge length.


Jon thanks for your input.

If I am reading this correctly then a 240 WA handled knife will have a blade more similar in lengthof the edge to that of a 210 in a yo handle knife?

To put this into better perspective for me what should I expect the difference to be in a HD 240 WA gyuto and a 240 yo gyuto (I use the gyuto due to currently being in the middle of swapping a yo for a wa and am now questioning if I should go longer?).

Well I guess this is part of the fun with J Knives as once you think you have somewhat of a " handle" on things you quickly find how much more there is to learn.


----------



## jbroida

LennyD said:


> Jon thanks for your input.
> If I am reading this correctly then a 240 WA handled knife will have a blade more similar in lengthof the edge to that of a 210 in a yo handle knife?
> To put this into better perspective for me what should I expect the difference to be in a HD 240 WA gyuto and a 240 yo gyuto (I use the gyuto due to currently being in the middle of swapping a yo for a wa and am now questioning if I should go longer?).
> Well I guess this is part of the fun with J Knives as once you think you have somewhat of a " handle" on things you quickly find how much more there is to learn.


its usually about a 10-15mm difference depending on a number of factors... in general a 240mm wa will be longer than a 210mm yo. In reality, i think there is very little functional difference.


----------



## lennyd

JBroida said:


> its usually about a 10-15mm difference depending on a number of factors... in general a 240mm wa will be longer than a 210mm yo. In reality, i think there is very little functional difference.


Jon thanks again!

I do not think that should make too much of a difference (though it still is approx 7/16-5/8" for those not good with mm) and I did hear from Mark that this model is around 10mm difference so it is in the lower part of the range.

Are there any other differences in the HD line or others between the yo and wa that are worthy of knowing or discussing etc?

Since this will be my first true Japanese style handle knife I am looking forward to seeing the difference etc, but am also silently cautious as I really would prefer not to be motivated to be changing over to all new knives (even though I am sure both have their place and preference).

Then again when I see some of the beautiful examples you show in some of your videos it is tempting as hell too /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

I guess one of the harder things for a newbie to learn is how to tell a good quality handmade knife from a lesser one etc, and most likely the only more difficult thing is to understand just what that difference means to them.


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## jbroida

LennyD said:


> Are there any other differences in the HD line or others between the yo and wa that are worthy of knowing or discussing etc?


They are essentially the same geometry-wise between yo and wa... here are some things to pay attention to-

Yo knives are slightly longer than wa-knives so the measurements of spine thickness above the heel may be misleading... they are damn near the same (more variance from knife to knife than yo to wa)

Yo knives are MUCH heavier

In some brands, the yo knives dont have the rounded spine and choil like the wa ones do (I would go into this more, but then i have to start talking about things i sell more directly and that is not the point here)

obviously the balance will be different... wa is more blade heavy

Thats about it.


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## phaedrus

If I haven't mentioned it before, nice to see you here, JB! Your expertise and worldview are a nice addition to CT./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## boar_d_laze

Phaedrus said:


> If I haven't mentioned it before, nice to see you here, JB! Your expertise and worldview are a nice addition to CT./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


+1

BDL


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## jbroida

thanks guys


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