# Thin blade Cleaver......



## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

Hello all, I am wondering can anyone recommend a Chinese Cleaver for me. I have several already, but I want a specific thing. I want a short, very high carbon cleaver with a very thin blade and a well curved belly. I have a Winco stainless one that I love the big curve of the blade, but it is too thick for vegetables it breaks them. I have another that is very thin high carbon, and I love how the thin blade performs. It is however too long, and the blade has no curvature. My perfect cleaver will combine that thin high carbon blade with the short and curved blade of the Winco. Im not too worried about price, a cheap or expensive one is fine as long as it meets those criteria. I look around Chinatown all the time, but the only curved blade ones I find are very thick. I want this item because at my current job I can do most of the work with just this if I find it and leave most of my kit at home. Thanks


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I don't know what your price range is, but I hear good things about the ashi hamono cleaver (thinness). The gesshin ginga is made by ashi hamono for JKI with some exacting specifications.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin/gesshin-ginga-number6-chinese-cleaver.html

On the cheaper side, consider the all the CCK options:

http://chefsmall.net/

Some might be thicker, but really only the thinness behind the edge matters so much.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

jonny: May i ask why do you like curved cleavers?


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

I like the curved cleaver because you can mince things with it very easily. I like the cleavers overall because when its busy I can use the blade to move things quickly after cutting. Ive used one side by side with a chef knife alot, for me its a more versatile knife.


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## denverveggienut (Mar 8, 2012)

The Suien VC cleaver is a little longer than you may want, but full height and has a good bit of belly:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/suien-vc-chinese-cleaver.html

Great steel, stays sharp a long time.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

DenverVeggieNut said:


> The Suien VC cleaver is a little longer than you may want, but full height and has a good bit of belly:
> 
> http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/suien-vc-chinese-cleaver.html
> 
> Great steel, stays sharp a long time.


A perfect find for the OP.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You can maybe save some money by sending your thick one out for thinning.  Someone correct me if needed here, but I believe that can be done for about $35 with the shipping.

Then again you could always change your mincing technique to the "guillotine and glide," that term made infamous by BDL.

Rick


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

Wow I would love to have the Winco thinned actually I didn't know that was possible... Here I went and said price was no object, it wasnt at the time of posting but now ive moved and have way more rent to pay. Lol. That Suien Cleaver looks like what I ideally would like if I had the $. Can you tell me Rick where to send my Winco to have it thinned?


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

I can still afford $35-50 but not $175 at this time.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Rick Alan said:


> You can maybe save some money by sending your thick one out for thinning. Someone correct me if needed here, but I believe that can be done for about $35 with the shipping.
> 
> Then again you could always change your mincing technique to the "guillotine and glide," that term made infamous by BDL.
> 
> Rick


What does that term refer to.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Jonny I did a quick goggle and was surprised at how little shows up, cause I know there are hundreds of competent guys out there doing this.  I suggest doing a specific post here, and perhaps better still on CKTG's forum and perhaps even better still on kitchenknivesforum.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Benuser said:


> http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=405


um chopping lmao? honestly that seems to be a term that was invented here. I searched google extensively and alot of the posts are in some way related to this website. A rose by any other name I guess.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Benuser said:


> BDL wrote about calling the classic French action by the term Guillotine and glide -- fourth line in the linked article:
> But as far as I know (a) no
> one else does; and (b) there is no
> real name for it.
> No sir, it's no chopping.


Whoops I misspoke. It's simply called slicing. Most people who don't work in a professional kitchen of course wouldn't know these things and so invent silly names. 



 "guillotine and glide" :lol: cute.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Yep. the sliding forward is part of slicing. It's slicing. The fact that everyone calls it slicing and BDL (while I do respect the knowledge he displays re knives) found it necessary to invent a new term is strange.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Yep. Exactly what happens in the video. Nobody would slide the knfe without bringing the blade into contact with the board first....


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

SB, first thing to understand is that I mentioned the G+L in relation to the OP's preference for mincing with a curved blade.  The G+L is, amongst other things, a technique used for mincing with a flat-edged blade, and I believe is thought by many to be superior for that task, and many others.

That aside, there is an art of the knife you don't find all too much of outside of Japan, where the cut itself makes the meal, and it takes a very sharp knife and fine control to produce.  As example, try taking your prep knife, and just as it comes from the $5 sharpener guy, and attempt to cut <1mm slices of onion and celery, and also have those high-moisture slices perfectly smooth of surface and actually even dry looking, due to the fact that you actually sliced thru individual cells, rather crushing numerous layers of cells into a mush as you blasted thru with your $5 edge.  And it becomes a whole n'other order of magnitude when considering raw fish.  This also adds a whole new dimension to what is a typical julienne or chiffonade, a simple diced beet or onion even, your cole slaw, etc.  The texture, freshness, tatste and ultimate sensory experience of the product are significantly affected.

Maybe most folks wouldn't notice the difference/care for the most part, but you have to consider there are those who do.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

If you genuinely believe that your knives cut cells on a microscopic level, I cannot help you. Without the obvious example of eggs your knives are not "slicing cells". Even a 5nm blade (not what you can achieve with your knives unless they're obisidian boxcutters) coming into contact with a cell is roughly equivalent to an 18 wheeler colliding with a person... the truck does not slice cleanly through the person, for the sake of our argument. It happens rarely, sure. Same with the old wives tale about cutting onions with a sharp knife doesn't make you cry because the gas doesn't get released blah blah blah nonsense.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

SpoiledBroth said:


> If you genuinely believe that your knives cut cells on a microscopic level, I cannot help you. Without the obvious example of eggs your knives are not "slicing cells". Even a 5nm blade (not what you can achieve with your knives unless they're obisidian boxcutters) coming into contact with a cell is roughly equivalent to an 18 wheeler colliding with a person... the truck does not slice cleanly through the person, for the sake of our argument. It happens rarely, sure. Same with the old wives tale about cutting onions with a sharp knife doesn't make you cry because the gas doesn't get released blah blah blah nonsense.


R.L. Is not completely wrong and you are a little mistaken. Almost all knives are much thinner then 5mm at the edge, 5mm is almost as thick as a pencil. What your thinking of (I think) is the knifes bevel and not its edge? A knife "bevilles" down to under a micron in thickness (thinner then a cell). Knives do in fact cut threw cells, (hence you bleed when you cut yourself, you are cuting threw red blood cells), sharp ones just do it better, or "cleaner". Job at it. Knives cut cells in very much the same way a laser does, with heat. At the edge of a knife there is A tremendous amount of pressure and friction generated, a very sharp knife creates enough friction to cauterise the cell membrane's as the knife slices threw it. This can be noticed in a chiffonade of basil that stays green all day when cut with a sharp knife.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

CM-Chef said:


> R.L. Is not completely wrong and you are a little mistaken. Almost all knives are much thinner then 5mm at the edge, 5mm is almost as thick as a pencil. What your thinking of (I think) is the knifes bevel and not its edge? A knife "bevilles" down to under a micron in thickness (thinner then a cell). Knives do in fact cut threw cells, sharp ones just do it better, or "cleaner". Job at it. Knives cut cells in very much the same way a laser does, with heat. At the edge of a knife there is A tremendous amount of pressure and friction generated, a very sharp knife creates enough friction to cauterise the cell membrane's as the knife slices threw it. This can be noticed in a chiffonade of basil that stays green all day when cut with a sharp knife.


Actually nm is a measurement of nanometers... 1 billionth of a metre... thanks! Your understanding of physics is way way way off too.  And chiffonade of basil is no more resiliant to oxidation than uncut basil, less so actually.


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

Oh and Rick, I'm pretty familiar with the technique for using the flat blade. I couldn't get it to mince Rosemary or Thyme that way though. I really would probably use my big old "Ho Ching Kee Lee" carbon cleaver for everything in the kitchen if it would just mince those herbs, or if I knew how to. That Cleaver is the sharpest thing in our kitchen, it is like obsidian almost its crazy. Its too long also though.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

SpoiledBroth said:


> Actually nm is a measurement of nanometers... 1 billionth of a metre... thanks! Your understanding of physics is way way way off too.  And chiffonade of basil is no more resiliant to oxidation than uncut basil, less so actually.


Sory I thought you meant to write "mm". And though I'm no physicist, if your saying a knife edge is 5nm then that's like 50 atoms wide? And if my biology is right, Animal cells range 10 µm -30µm, plant cells are even larger (up to 100µm) . So even a dull knife at say 50nm would still cut threw a cell, no?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

jonnyboy369 said:


> Oh and Rick, I'm pretty familiar with the technique for using the flat blade. I couldn't get it to mince Rosemary or Thyme that way though. I really would probably use my big old "Ho Ching Kee Lee" carbon cleaver for everything in the kitchen if it would just mince those herbs, or if I knew how to. That Cleaver is the sharpest thing in our kitchen, it is like obsidian almost its crazy. Its too long also though.


I've never found Rosemary a problem, but for the other of course in the home we have the luxury of "time," and so I have never tried mincing a sprig of Thyme, instead just very anally stripping the leaves and bark off those fiberous skinny stems with fingers and fingernails. For that I can see rock 'n rolling over them with the curved blade, and not bothering to dull a sharp knife on them.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

SpoiledBroth said:


> Actually nm is a measurement of nanometers... 1 billionth of a metre... thanks! Your understanding of physics is way way way off too. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif And chiffonade of basil is no more resiliant to oxidation than uncut basil, less so actually.


Your chef comrade was referring to how a chiffonade of basil behaves when cut with a properly sharp knife as apposed to a chiffonade done with a relatively dull one. A bell pepper cut with a dull knife can see the cut surface turn to mush after a day in the fridge, while one cut with a sharp knife will still look fresh, etc etc.

And since you mentioned it, it does occur to me that these days I never tear up cutting oinions, interestingly enough, though I certainly remember tearing up in the old days (like 3 years ago) of [relatively] dull knives.

Rick


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## denverveggienut (Mar 8, 2012)

If you're on a budget, your best bet may be to modify your current thin carbon clever. Just take it out onto the sidewalk and start wailing away at the fore and aft parts of the blade until you've rounded the shape the way you like it, then take it to a course sharpening stone to thin and shape the edge back right. The length you're pretty much stuck with... but how long is it? In what ways do you find it too long?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

DenverVeggieNut said:


> If you're on a budget, your best bet may be to modify your current thin carbon clever. Just take it out onto the sidewalk and start wailing away at the fore and aft parts of the blade until you've rounded the shape the way you like it, then take it to a course sharpening stone to thin and shape the edge back right. The length you're pretty much stuck with... but how long is it? In what ways do you find it too long?


Jonnyboy don't do it! A Cleaver Fairy will fall dead if you do. :-(


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

Benuser said:


> . Besides from the question how to successfully deburr at that level without damaging the remaining edge. And sharpening every time without need on a relatively coarse stone implies a lot of material getting wasted, and the blade's lifespan dramatically shortened.


I'm not sure if that was a question or statement you made there, So if my answer is something you already know I apologize. Finer grit water stones (especially Japanese natural stones) the mud created will in fact polish away the burr from the previous stone. I.M.O J-nats do a better (although sometimes slower) job at this. I can go from a 2000 grit stone to a J-Nat and that's it, no in between for further progression needed. The other thing I find helpful is to debut on course stones before flipping over to the other side of the knife, and before going on to the next stone. This is because the burr created on course stones (under 1200) likes to "hang on", so it flip flops back and forth and therefore you're not actually sharpening the edge anymore with the burr in the way. So on a very dull knifes I will start with a 320-500 stone (depending on the type of steel, or if there are chips and damage that have to be removed). I sharpen one side (usually the front side) till I can feel the burr on the other side. Then I deburr with a wine cork, coper pipe, or sometimes the edge of a cutting board before I sharpen the other side. I'll then go to a 800 stone and do the same thing, 1000 same. Then I'll do one of two things. On very fine single bevel I'll go to a 2000 stone then a j-Nat. On most knives I'll speed it up by just going to a leather belt on a belt sander loaded with diamond compound. That same lether belt I use almost every day on my double bevel knives (note: pro chef/ heavy use, home cook wouldn't need to do this daily) this keeps my knives sharp (in the sense of not having to go back to the stones) for a long time, months, I would assume years for a home cook.
A few other things regarding your post: 1st it's funny but if you polish the bar from a course stoner rather then remove it you get an exceptionally sharp knife (it just doesn't hold up to heavy daily use), Murray Carter (a knife maker) is a great example of this.
2nd as opposed to the above I prefer a convex, polished edge on most knives for their durability. I.M.O. A polished convex edge is not that noticeably "less sharp" then and flat ground edge, but it lasts a lot longer.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

To answer the question of the thread starter, perhaps a Sushikiri Bocho/ Sushi Kiri would be what you are looking for? See the bottom 2 cleavers on this page. The 3rd to last knife on the page is a sushi kiri, they are meant to cut sushi rolls, but maybe it will meet the needs you're looking for? The 2nd to the last just happens to be a "Chinese cleaver" with some "belly" to it. Your more traditional Chinese cleavers have more belly then a Chukabocho (Japanese style Chinese cleaver)
http://echefknife.com/choosing-your-knife.html


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

also what modle Winco do you have? From looking at Wincos sight they have some thin cleavers with belly to them. The KC-101 and KC-401, both are very cheep. Chinese cleavers, come in different thicknesses and have different purposes. Thick bone choppers, medium thickness normal use choppers, and then the very thin "slicing" cleaver. CCK has become the "on line favorite" in recent years, great cleaver. I also by the way like useing a thin Chinese cleaver as a every day line knife. For all The reasons you pointed out, plus the fact that there's no tip to break if you accidentally hit the steel backsplash, or stab the guy next to you . Also they are cheep when compared to other knives I have so if it gets stolen or lost at work it's no real big deal. I always say when people ask me why I like useing a cleaver 


> 1 billion China man can't be wrong


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

Also if you want a "hi and" great cleaver at A somewhat reasonable price check out the Misono #61 Cleaver. About $150, 7.5" long, good belly to it, very thin, quality steel, made by a very reputable company.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Even if you can achieve a 50 micron edge you're still basically dropping an office building onto a house. Seriously, if you think you're slicing cells with your knife you're just plain wrong. BTW the "food cut with a sharp knife stays fresh longer" is a myth. Just like tearing lettuce lengthens the shelf life (more hokum nonsense). If your knife has *no edge* yes, you'll bruise the crap out of what you're cutting and degrade the product. If you knife has a serviceable edge comparing it with a japanese knife and cutting the same product, you may offset degredation by 60 mins at best, negligible for all but the most demanding commercial standard. Unless you keep a mise en place at home.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

SB, you're just pulling numbers out of the air, and to your great detriment here.  For starters, vegetable cells are relatively large as noted by CM Chef, and 50 microns = .002", which would be about as sharp as an edge that had been whacked against a stone countertop a few dozen times.

Rick


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

I seriously think you're confusing cells with molecules?? Organic molecules separate relatively easily they can actually be pulled apart by blunt force, in a sense you can squash cell to the point that it bursts apart. So let's say you rip a If you look at a magnified cross section of cut organic matter you can see this. Organic molecules can even be cut with special types of knives we are off topic now where talking specialized surgical instruments. But to be clere when flesh it cut or ripped apart cells are destroyed not just pushed aside.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

CM-Chef said:


> I seriously think you're confusing cells with molecules?? Organic molecules separate relatively easily they can actually be pulled apart by blunt force, in a sense you can squash cell to the point that it bursts apart. So let's say you rip a If you look at a magnified cross section of cut organic matter you can see this. Organic molecules can even be cut with special types of knives we are off topic now where talking specialized surgical instruments. But to be clere when flesh it cut or ripped apart cells are destroyed not just pushed aside.


Yep my point exactly, cells are destroyed (torn) not "sliced" as is being posited in the thread. The degree of difference between a jknife and a german knife in this respect is negligible. Both are not going to achieve what has been proposed (cleanly cutting through cells). Btw there is no "average cell size", the yolk of an ostrich egg is a single cell. The majority of cells we are talking about are thousands and thousands of times smaller than the edge of your knife (yes I pull numbers out of the air because I don't own a micrometer and because I'm explaining relatively simple physics to you) ergo you're not slicing so much as tearing/crushing REGARDLESS of where your knife is made and what steel the differences in terms of how quickly your food begins to rot/oxidise/whatever is NEGLIGIBLE. IMPERCEPTIBLE to all but the most discerning of time lapse cameras and even then the difference is going to be express in a matter of minutes maximally hour (or two).

Example: look at the edge of your knife. Notice how you can SEE it? Now grab a tomato and try to seperate out a single cell. Go ahead, I'll even give you the benefit of a high powered microscope. Your knife is so many times larger than the single tomato cell you will never slice cleanly enough through it to ward off watery tomatoes or whatever benefit you think you get from spending 3 hours on an edge.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

SpoiledBroth said:


> Yep my point exactly, cells are destroyed (torn) not "sliced" as is being posited in the thread. The degree of difference between a jknife and a german knife in this respect is negligible. Both are not going to achieve what has been proposed (cleanly cutting through cells). Btw there is no "average cell size", the yolk of an ostrich egg is a single cell. The majority of cells we are talking about are thousands and thousands of times smaller than the edge of your knife (yes I pull numbers out of the air because I don't own a micrometer and because I'm explaining relatively simple physics to you) ergo you're not slicing so much as tearing/crushing REGARDLESS of where your knife is made and what steel the differences in terms of how quickly your food begins to rot/oxidise/whatever is NEGLIGIBLE. IMPERCEPTIBLE to all but the most discerning of time lapse cameras and even then the difference is going to be express in a matter of minutes maximally hour (or two).
> 
> Example: look at the edge of your knife. Notice how you can SEE it? Now grab a tomato and try to seperate out a single cell. Go ahead, I'll even give you the benefit of a high powered microscope. Your knife is so many times larger than the single tomato cell you will never slice cleanly enough through it to ward off watery tomatoes or whatever benefit you think you get from spending 3 hours on an edge.


For what its worth, there are some people out there using 1 micron and even sub-micron abrasives on their edges.... that can put their edges firmly within the range of cell size... http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cell_Biology/Introduction/Cell_size


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

That is simply untrue. The grit has nothing to do with the width of edge you can achieve. A straight razor polished to 1 micron does not mean the edge of the knife is necessarily 1 micron in width. It would be humanely impossible to freehand that accurately. Even with an edgepro I doubt any metal used for any kitchen knife is capable of producing and holding a 1 micron or even 50 micron edge.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

SpoiledBroth said:


> That is simply untrue. The grit has nothing to do with the width of edge you can achieve. A straight razor polished to 1 micron does not mean the edge of the knife is necessarily 1 micron in width. It would be humanely impossible to freehand that accurately. Even with an edgepro I doubt any metal used for any kitchen knife is capable of producing and holding a 1 micron or even 50 micron edge.


i am definitely not saying its practical, but there are some who have taken SEM pictures of their edges and you would be surprised by the results. Either way, whether one cuts cells or not, is irrelevant. One can clearly see the difference in results of a highly finished edge versus a not as highly finished edge in the finished product. This is a function of blade geometry, edge refinement, scratch pattern and size, as well as cutting technique.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo  What you're saying is you can differentiate in a meaningful way between a julienne of carrot cut with a 20nm edge and a julienne of carrot cut with a 190 nm edge? Forgive me for finding that exceptionally hard to believe.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

visible results that can be noticed by anyone are not generally considered placebo effect


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Again we are not comparing the mythical "dull knife" (blade with no edge) to something polished to 1 micron.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

No but seriously SB, we are comparing a properly composed, thinned and acutely sharpened knife to that which is typically seen used in either the home or professional kitchen.  And actually which would command an exercise of care that might make it impractical for any use at all in many pro kitchens.  No one here is implying that you need to be using one at work.  There really is no reason to take this personally.  Enough has been said on the matter I think, it would be nice to just table this conversation now.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Lol k. I've seen the SEM photographs online, of razor blades with 1 micron edge that develop burs from shaving, ergo one would assume the second you whack your knife on the cutting board attempting to chop, regardless of what board steel method of sharpening that 1 micron edge is obliterated. Has naught to do with thinning or "proper composition", and everything to do with thousands of pounds of pressure being exerted on that 1 micron edge. Its not personal so much as I think its a bit ridiculous and or dishonest to represent to anyone there is a "noticeable" difference between food cut with a "serviceable" xcrmov and a "properly thinned and well sharpened" white paper or whatever your poison is.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

"----Synthetic diamond scalpel blades are commercially available and well liked by surgeons. Contrary to what you might think they stay sharp much better than steel and chipping doesnt seem to be a problem. Quoted sharpness is 3 nm and achieved with plasma polishing. This is like 30 atoms wide at 1 angstrom per atom.

Outside diamond, cracked glass edges have been used for years as ultramicrotome blades for cutting sections as thin as 200angstroms for electronmicroscopy. These would be similar sharpness to the obsidian blades quoted above by Danger. However the glass blades can cut less than 100 sections before geting blunt even on soft tissue. cutting bone is not possible. 40 yrs ago there were expensive diamond blades available that lasted well and would cut bone ok, but the glass ones were sharper and would cut the thinnest sections. The latest diamond blades are obviously sharper than glass if the 3 nm is correct.
---"

Back to cleaver: (just MHO)

The thicknesses of the blade is for varying the weight of the knife only. Based on the shape, thin blade or thick blade changes the angle of the cutting edge very little.

dcarch


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

dcarch said:


> "----Synthetic diamond scalpel blades are commercially available and well liked by surgeons. Contrary to what you might think they stay sharp much better than steel and chipping doesnt seem to be a problem. Quoted sharpness is 3 nm and achieved with plasma polishing. This is like 30 atoms wide at 1 angstrom per atom.
> 
> Outside diamond, cracked glass edges have been used for years as ultramicrotome blades for cutting sections as thin as 200angstroms for electronmicroscopy. These would be similar sharpness to the obsidian blades quoted above by Danger. However the glass blades can cut less than 100 sections before geting blunt even on soft tissue. cutting bone is not possible. 40 yrs ago there were expensive diamond blades available that lasted well and would cut bone ok, but the glass ones were sharper and would cut the thinnest sections. The latest diamond blades are obviously sharper than glass if the 3 nm is correct.
> ---"


https://www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

The edge of a knife is the point of two intersecting lines in theory it's infinitely thin to the point of zero,


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

CM-Chef said:


> The edge of a knife is the point of two intersecting lines in theory it's infinitely thin to the point of zero,


... :lol: please tell me you don't believe that. Just look at the pdf I linked.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

SpoiledBroth said:


> That is simply untrue. The grit has nothing to do with the width of edge you can achieve. A straight razor polished to 1 micron does not mean the edge of the knife is necessarily 1 micron in width. It would be humanely impossible to freehand that accurately. Even with an edgepro I doubt any metal used for any kitchen knife is capable of producing and holding a 1 micron or even 50 micron edge.





> 9 µm Human red blood cell


So how about a 8750 micron edge? Still thin enough to cut through a red blood cell.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

Don't see a link?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

https://www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf


CM-Chef said:


> So how about a 8750 micron edge? Still thin enough to cut through a red blood cell.


Wrong. Red blood cells are some of the smallest in the body at 8 microns. It would be like you being hit by a 700 story building. Not cutting, smashing to bits.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

Ok found the link, shows edges from 1-10 nm, still capable of cutting through a 9,000 nm plant cell or 900 nm red blood cell.


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

SpoiledBroth said:


> https://www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf
> Wrong. Red blood cells are some of the smallest in the body at 8 microns. It would be like you being hit by a 700 story building. Not cutting, smashing to bits.


I think your mistaken, red blood cell is 9 µm that's 9,000 nm 
http://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cell_Biology/Introduction/Cell_size


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

CM-Chef said:


> I think your mistaken, red blood cell is 9 µm that's 9,000 nm
> http://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cell_Biology/Introduction/Cell_size


... I said 8 micron u said 9... I never said 8nm. The 1nm blade edge is not a knife, if you had read the document completely (you didn't). The actualy knives are on like page 20. 1nm is razor blade.


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

The thing is about 11" long. Its a monster. It is made of old saw steel I think. The sidewalk! Now that is honestly a legit idea. I can trace the belly curve onto it from my other cleaver with a sharpie. Im into this. I can put the edge back together with my stone then. I even could just borrow a hacksaw from maintenance at our hotel and cut off about 3" of this thing. I am going to modify it myself I think. They might even have a grinding wheel I can use down there and quickly get it to shape.


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

Oh and the Winco I have is the Kc-401. Yes it is dirt cheap and I like it alot. It is too thick to prep veggies though. It breaks carrots and cant slice thin tomatoes. The old Kee-Lee is badass at slicing anything with its super thin big flat razor sharp blade. It has no belly though at all. Either one of these I use, I always have to keep a chef knife to make up what it cant do. I want to replace the chef knife and the cleaver with just one cleaver. It is all I will need. I can leave my knives all hanging up at home then I just wont need them at work anymore. Less kit is better to me..


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

I have to also disagree about blade thickness not mattering. I keep all my knives sharp enough to shave with. The thick bladed Winco will perform poorly at certain cutting tasks no matter how sharp I have it. It will still break the carrots for example. Even less sharp , the very thin Kee Lee carbon cleaver will slice way better than the Winco. I have an old Chicago chef knife like that too. Ive tried to use it. I can have it wicked sharp, and it just breaks stuff. You can put it right next to a modern thinner blade, and it just cant cut like it does. Thick wedge shaped blades are not good for slicing I think.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If you are actually going to do this only use a belt sander if they have it, that is what is used to thin and shape knives.  Your stones would be murderously slow reprofiling the edge after you grind your curve into it, and I think you are going to find the sidewalk very slow also.  I grinding wheel should not be used directly on the edge at all, it will overheat it, and you will also find reprofiling tricky with it also. 

But reprofiling the winco on the grinder is definitely worth a shot though.  You know when you are getting too close to the edge when you see sparks just starting to fly over it, but always stop and visually check the grind to be sure where you are.  Stay well above the center of the wheel.

If the wheels are good and in good shape it will go pretty fast.  If they are loaded up or just need dressing they may have a slag stone lying around for that.  Consider wearing thick gloves, and definitely safety glasses of course.  Be careful, keep your fingers out of the way, go slow.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Just because there has been so much unnecessary back and forth here over the issue, I thought it would be a good idea to explain approximately where I feel "sharp knife" begins and ends.

In the typical pro kitchen I'd say you mostly do not expect to see a knife much thinner than .015" behind the edge, and more likely knives that haven't seen any thinning after numerous sharpenings and can be .030"+.  And these will typically be sharpened around 18deg/side, with nothing finer than a 2K stone, and very often <1K.  Steel of a hardness usually no greater than 59RC, and probably 55 as a mean.

The kind of knife I was referring to as "sharp", as in sharp enough to get the kind of result I and others were referring to, would start off being around .005" behind the edge, angle no more obtuse that 12deg/side, and finished with minimum of a 10K stone.  Hardness a minimum of 58RC (at least for most stainless), but much more preferably 60+.  These figures are for ordinary stainless alloys, carbon and finer stainless can probably get away with slightly more obtuse angles and lower grits for the same result.

This knife can do the bottom end of the kind of cutting I was referring to.  Those restauraunt knives above would come no where close.  There are knives much harder and of very fine grain and which can be chisel-ground to as little as 10deg inclusive I understand, but that is another ball game.

With a 60RC and the rest meeting the initial figures above, such a knife could be used all day long in a pro environment cutting soft veggies and boneless meat with only the occasional truing.  And whereas the typical Western/European restaurant is concerned they may not care, certainly something to try at home.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes good point. There is keenness of edge, how pointed the edge actually is at the apex - and then there is "perceived" sharpness, or how sharp the knife appears in general usage. That is of course a function of keenness along with the whole blade profile: the primary and secondary edge angles; the profile above these (on a lazer the secondary angle would ideally run all the way to the spine); and to a very large extent the thickness where the primary and secondary meet, or what I referred to as _thickness behind the ed_ge.

As the edge on my knives weaken and deteriorate I tend to thin just a bit and micro-bevel after truing. Jon described micro-beveling some of his stainless knives to a rather obtuse angle, significantly increasing edge retention without sacrificing much sharpness.

Rick


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