# Anyone even remotely THINKING about a "culinary career" needs to read this...



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

http://ruhlman.com/2010/09/so-you-wanna-be-a-chef—-by-bourdain-2.html


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## jellly (Jan 3, 2005)

Hey, Pete - Thanks for the link.  I really enjoyed that, though I am kind of glad I didn't read it years ago before I went to culinary school.  I definitely fit in his category of older career changers.  But a lot of what he says, ESPECIALLY about the choices students make right out of culinary school, are very true.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I entered the "culinary arena" at 58, and am still cooking at 68, so, look out you youngsters!


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

thanks for sharing the link, Pete.  I too fit into the category of "older career changers" and haven't set foot in a culinary school yet.  I'm still thinking about going but I haven't fully made the decision just yet.


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

Thanks, Pete....I'm an old dog back-pedalling on the slippery slope...

Those who can do, those who can't teach...or _starve!_ In my case, getting kicked up a short, rickety flight of stairs to absorb blue radiation by myself looks decidedly unappealing but I made my bed...just probably shouldn't have pissed in it... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif.

Thanks Tony...you done good!


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

now I'm even more unsure what to do with my life D:


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The fact is that Mr. Bourdain IS a loser guys.

If it weren't for his writing capabilities, none of us would have ever heard of him.

He freely admits to his career being less than stellar. Les Halles in New York where he worked wasn't even that great a restaurant.

I've read his book Kitchen Confidential and laughed almost all through it. Like many Chefs it is a story of their own careers (mine included)

His latest book and the thread that Pete has offered wreaks of elitism. There is  jealousy, and envy  in most every profession.

Just remember Tony did not make it as a Chef but is a lot better at writing about it.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I read the linked article and I have to say, I was amused.  I thought it was quite humorously written and quite funny.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

I am not so sure that it is a "fact" that he is a loser. I think we know of him exactly what he wants us to know. He is frank about his tribulations with dealing with substance abuse and overcoming that monumental challenge. Further, he is well-spoken about food and culinary exploration. I am not necessarily the president of his fan club, but I think to categorically dismiss his experience may be robbing potential readers of valuable information.


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

From what I get from this article is that the culinary world is extremely hardwork with bull pay and with no insurance and bull hours with a crappy social life. how the heck does a cook live on 12/hr for 5 years before getting promoted to a slightly higher pay yet must handle more bull? I knew that I would be getting bull pay from the start but I'm not sure if I can deal with 18$/hr when I'm 30 and with average insurance while trying to raise a family. I don't think I'm talented so I'm not sure if sheer hard sweat will be enough. My dream is to open up my own restaurant but that could just mean I'm just young and stupid.If the culinary world is this doom and gloom I'm starting to have second thoughts.......

I think I am in denial of being a dreamer  from watching foodnetwork. it seems like the people are taking a huge risk in their life with a small chance of becoming an average chef with below average pay .  Do you see a lot of 30 y/o cooks deeply regret their choice? I think I might be satisfied from just having a huge knowledge on food rather then having no social life.still might take culinary school though.

ps. sorry for the unorganized rant lol.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I think the article has some level of "wisdom" in it.  Look in your kitchens and look at the age of the people working in them.  Being a "line cook" is not a career destination, it's a means to an end.  Whether that "end" is in the restaurant world or elsewhere is up to the individual to determine.  There's nothing special here though -- go look at your local fast food joint and look at the ages represented.  Most of the workers are under 25, with the majority of evening shift being high schoolers.  I worked in fast food in high school, and frankly, think everyone should, but that's not where my career is supposed to end.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I just don't understand the situation at all.

In "My time" there were culinary "superstars" too: Child, Pepin, Martin Yan, Frugal Gourmet, etc..  True, there wasn't a devoted TV Channel, but they were popular enough, yet students weren't banging on culinary school doors back then. 

Why now?

Face it: 

(1) There's waaaaaaay to much competition for the dining dollar,

(2) no controls/standards on who opens up a place,

(3) no standards on culinary schools, 

(4) no energy exerted by Unions or schools to set up national standards for cooks,

and

(5) a public who just want cheap food.

Even though I've been in this biz for 25-odd years, I can still walk off to a distance and see things the way they are.  Even when I was 16 I knew I'd never get rich, would work non-sociable hours, and have physical demands on my body every day.

Why don't people now see this?  Why don't the financial institutions lending money acknowledge that it's at best, culinary school tuition is a lousy investment?

Why is Bourdain the only one who can look critically at the whole restaurant scene?  What he is doing needs to be done, but no one is following him, no one is supporting him, and the media treat him as a bad boy odd-ball. A one-off... 

Why does every media source portray a cook as a Chef with a glorious lifestyle and $100,000.00 salary? 

Is it guilt feelings for tipping the waiter and giving verbal complimets to the cooks?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2010)

Couldn't think of a better profession than being a chef!


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

foodpump said:


> I just don't understand the situation at all.
> 
> In "My time" there were culinary "superstars" too: Child, Pepin, Martin Yan, Frugal Gourmet, etc.. True, there wasn't a devoted TV Channel, but they were popular enough, yet students weren't banging on culinary school doors back then.
> 
> ...


A peer of mine would have many issue with your statements, and I doubt that having "food police" to insure proper procedures, and to decide who stays open and who closes is not the answer.Free enterprise remember?


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Pete ! I though I was oldest one on here, but I see we are tied. I didn't change careers however I started at 15. For a guy that started at 58, you are very knowlegable.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yup free enterprise........

Stand on the other side of the kitchen doors for a few years and watch "Free enterprise" at work coming into your establishement.  The prevailing attitude for customers is to get whatever you can for free, and failing that at a discount, and failing that at least "give 'em a piece of your mind". Something like 8 out of 10 restaurants don't make it in the first year, for  a variety of reasons: Under capitilized, ignorent of health/municipal codes, poor marketing, you name it.  And the public love it, for a restaurant slowly going under is bleeding itself dry--great bargains to be had before it goes under.  Failed businesses are hard on the economy, hard on the owners, hard on it's suppliers, even hard on it's ex-employees.  Everyone has sob-stories about working at "X" and didn't get paid becasue it went under--everyone: employees, suppliers, landlords.

The ones that make past the first and second years are invariably run by people with experience in the industry. It don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why driver's licenses are mandatory, or electrician's certificates or gas fitter's tickets are required.  Meh, a 60 seat restaurant only has the capacity to kill or maim 120 guests per shift........ 

Go ahead with Free Enterprise, the used food equipment dealers will love you to death......

There are two ways to make an employer pay you more:

The first is to put a gun to his head and threaten.  This is the only tactic in the hospitality union's book--strike or else.

The second is to train up the employee, making them much more desirable and capable of making the business earn more. 

For this you need standards and qualifications, and every other manual trade has these. Going rate for plumbers is $70/hr, HVAC $80/hr, Electricians,O.K. you get the message, they have standards and benchmarks and are paid acccording to this.  Cooks have none, and the Unions are doing diddly-squat about it, and the employers keep on buying more and more convienience food and getting unexperienced people to open pouches

because they have no "real" cooks, and have shaved every penny so it is impossible to hire and pay for a "real" cook, and....... O.K. you get the message, it's a nasty cycle.

Someone has to hold the Culinary School's nose to the doo-doo under the couch too.  "Free enterprise" at it's best, and "Caveat emporium" too, as Mr. Bourdain so nicely points out, forking out 40-60 grand for a diploma so's you can get to earn minimum wage for the first few years isn't good.

Free enterprise my sweet cheeks.  Look at any media source and therse no mention of the pittfalls and current situation, only who's "top Chef".


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Ed Buchanan said:


> Pete ! I though I was oldest one on here, but I see we are tied. I didn't change careers however I started at 15. For a guy that started at 58, you are very knowlegable.


Ah, but like you I started my "culinary education" about the same time you did, I just "went to school" a little longer before "starting to cook professionally"! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## flourthepeople (Sep 22, 2010)

Bourdain is hardly a loser. Losers don't  get paid to travel the world and eat indigenous food. Bourdain is kind, smart, gracious and way down to earth.

He doesn't put on any airs, he is who he is. He has a beautiful wife and a sweet little girl. So he did some hard drugs for a few years, he doesn't  try to hide it, he is very open about who he was. We all go though bad spells, dark times, it is whether we get ourselves  out that counts and he did.

I think the culinary world needs Bourdain, who else can eat at The French Laundry one day and eat tacos off a truck the next. He's genuine, honest and a full fledged smart ass. He's perfect.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I am in the process of reading the book and went through this chapter already.  I am the target audience he is going after here.  I am 23, recently graduated, trying to put all the pieces together.  Instead of taking a trip to Spain or France though, I immediately started working full time for the hotel kitchen I had intern'd at.  I have no regrets with that I am doing, I have gained invaluable learning experiences at this kitchen, and I am eager to keep moving up with hotels (though it seems I may be hated among my fellow restaurant peers due to the benefits, slightly better pay, and slightly more sociable hours hotel kitchens offer).  I am confident that I can be successful and happy on the route I am in, even if I never become the next Thomas Kellar or Grant Achatz with a fortune in 3rd party branded cooking products.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Here's another interesting "news flash": http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/food-news/le-cordon-bleu-fraud-lawsuit/


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## chefbazookas (Oct 11, 2010)

That makes me happy.  I'm 33 and (though it would never stop me) I did have a moment of pause when I toured my school of choice recently and was the oldest person there besides the Chef.  I'm stubborn as the day is long, however, and ultimately I will have what I want.


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## candyclc (Oct 24, 2010)

Late to the game but new here, wanted to say thank you for posting this, I am a 32 year old college student who was a stay at home mom before this and it feels good to know my decision was a good one. Its the first concern I had when i talked to the program advisor. However I am not going to a culinary school and the program is actually a business associates in hospitality and food service. They are training managers, and its definitely not 50 grand for a year more like 2! When i told him I thought I was too old he gave me a business card of a women who opened a bakery local and her product is well know within a year. she found a niche and went for it. She graduated a year ago. She is 55. That's right folks. 55.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2010)

Quote:


PeteMcCracken said:


> Here's another interesting "news flash": http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/food-news/le-cordon-bleu-fraud-lawsuit/


the problem is they are misleading... this is not a career where you go to school and are guaranteed even a paying job. if you manage to get paid, the pay is horrible until you get to the top. some say its not even worth it.

i would not pay for a school like LCB because it is ridiculous. those who are rich and do it simply for fun, i can understand... but for those who actually need a career to come out of it, i feel sorry for them. i know many that struggle financially and going to expensive culinary schools only set them further back. clearly making little over minimum wage isn't supporting their family, let alone paying off the debt from school and prior.

i am taking a culinary program at a community college... far cheaper, yet it still prepares you for work in a professional kitchen. it might help you get a job, but its still hard to... and anyone asking a culinary school for labor is looking to get it for free or very little pay. beyond those points, there is little reason to go to culinary school. i am still enrolled but only for restaurant management classes... i may not go back to the culinary classes. i cook professionally and i learn all i need on the job. (a lot of the culinary i learned at school is useless)


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Huy Bui,

I think you are painting culinary school with a very wide brush.  For YOU, you learn everything you WANT to know by cooking professionally.  However, just because you don't use things you learned in culinary school, doesn't mean they don't have a place for other people. 

For a professional cook with a stable resume, I simply don't feel that you can learn as much on the job as you can from having many more sources of information.  If your resume is 8 pages long because of all of the different place you've worked, then you may have learned a lot from the job.  However, much of the work of a cook is to prepare the same dishes over and over again.  There's not a lot of "learning" involved once you've gotten the quality and speed objectives reached. 

If I were rich, 20 years younger, and weren't married with kids, I might try going to Europe and begging to work for free to get the multitude of experience, but I don't have that option.  Culinary school offers the education that I don't have the time to pick up "on the job". 

I'm not in culinary school and don't intend to go, but if I wanted to learn the skills they offer, they would be a choice worthy of consideration.


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## chefjake (Oct 25, 2010)

hey their,

Very good point about having lot's of exp in many restaurant's but also doing the same thing, this is why I'm trying to develope my personal chef business of in home meal planning and dinner party services, unfortantly my market area prevents substantial growth of a personal chef in the Niagara region, perhaps I should be working in the restaurant industry after all, this way I know I'm getting security.

where your from

Jacob


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2010)

gobblygook,

nice of you to argue with me based on your vast lack of experience. excuses are like assholes, everyone has one. if you want to do it, you can. this thread is about those looking for a culinary career, if you want to learn for fun, that has nothing to do with this discussion.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

chefJake said:


> ...Very good point about having lot's of exp in many restaurant's but also doing the same thing, this is why I'm trying to develope my personal chef business of in home meal planning and dinner party services, unfortantly my market area prevents substantial growth of a personal chef in the Niagara region, perhaps I should be working in the restaurant industry after all, this way I know I'm getting security...


With over ten years as a personal chef, I've learned that a personal chef cooks what CLIENTS want and, as such, the opportunities to "learn from experience" are limited by your clients needs and wants.

Similarly, working day in and day out at a typical, average restaurant will "polish your skills", but only for producing what that particular restaurant offers.

A "trade school", and that defines a great majority of culinary schools, should teach one how to use the typical tools to prepare and cook the typical dishes using typical techniques and processes. These "fundamentals" copy what has, over time, been proven to work but the opportunities for "professional growth are limited at best. IMHO, the typical culinary school trains one to become, with experience, a "journeyman cook", able to fairly quickly adapt to the demands of a specific kitchen to repetitively produce specific dishes rapidly and efficiently.

The transition to "master" or "chef" requires additional education and experience in some combination of OJT and formal training or exposure.

There is NO single path that will lead you to YOUR goal, only paths that are longer or shorter, easier or more difficult, broader (to give one the flexibility of changing one's goal(s) ) or narrower (focused on achieving the desired goal). Note that ALL path lead to a "goal", stated, desired, or by happenstance, your choice!


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## sniper (Mar 3, 2011)

Looks like it's been awhile since anyone has responded to this but after reading AB's "opinion" on the subject, I feel it's all a moot point.

His take on the aspirations of people wanting a career in the culinary arts is a little twisted.

First off, it seems to me that he is lumping everybody into the "I want to be the next God's Gift to Chefs" catagory. Some people don't want the headache.

Some people just want to go to their local AI, or their local state college and get a degree in the culinary arts, go find a decent job, be able to pay the bills, enjoy what they're doing, and have a happy home life.

If I was 19 yrs. old again, heck yes this article would scare the crap out of me, and possibly make me re-think a career in the kitchen.

But fortunately, I'm pushing 54 yrs. old and I've got a pretty deep resume, and being a Chef ain't on there.

But here's the kicker, and why I totally disagree with his "philosophy" on age.......Being 53 yrs. old, and employed in one field or the other since I was 14, I'm mature enough to decide if I want to persue the culinary arts field.

And the fact that AB says I'm "too old" makes me that much more certain that I will obtain that career.


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## jtobin625 (Dec 16, 2008)

Well, here's the point I think many miss on this debate...The cost of SOME culinary schools does not reflect the actual pay you will walk away with. Try living making $700 a month payments on a cooks salary. It's difficult. Very difficult.

Now with that being said, certificates are also offered at some of these "expensive" schools. For example, I know AI posts the cost as well as the median salary post graduation. There isn't much of a difference between a BA degree and cert in for recent graduates.

Bourdain also discredits community colleges, which I think is a shame. Sure, some will be terrible but some are fantastic.

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is the financial ramifications of those that feel they NEED to spend a lot of money on a culinary degree.

What I've been doing the last few months is building my site which talks about a lot of these issues. www.culinaryschooladviser.com

I believe in freedom of choice but I also believe in making responsible and well-thought decisions.


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## sniper (Mar 3, 2011)

jtobin625 said:


> Well, here's the point I think many miss on this debate...The cost of SOME culinary schools does not reflect the actual pay you will walk away with. Try living making $700 a month payments on a cooks salary. It's difficult. Very difficult.
> 
> Now with that being said, certificates are also offered at some of these "expensive" schools. For example, I know AI posts the cost as well as the median salary post graduation. There isn't much of a difference between a BA degree and cert in for recent graduates.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying. I think Bourdain is basically telling us his ups, and (mostly) downs of his "entry level" career, which I think a lot of was brought on himself. Heroin and coke in the kitchen? Or for that matter, anywhere?

Although I don't feel sorry for him, I'm glad he is doing well and he is clean. I just think a lot of his past misery was rearing it's ugly head in the article.

Like I said earlier, that's something a young person could get very confused by, especially when they see their heros on the Food Network having such a good time and loving what they are doing.

I don't think anyone, young or old, should be discouraged from doing what they dream, or want to do.

You, and Bourdain are very spot on when it comes to researchingt your school very carefully.

Look man, I'm just a "wannabe" chef. I am not in this business, nor do I know what goes on behind the kitchen door. I'm just looking at it from a 53 yr. olds perspective whose had a lot of ups and downs myself. It ain't rocket science, it's cookin'.


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## nlpavalko (Feb 18, 2011)

I would have to echo jtobin's comments, and add my own. Are the high end culinary programs like CIA, LCB and J&W mighty expensive? Yes.

Do they give you a bit of gravitas when applying for a job at a place like Le Bernardin or Lola Bistro? Absolutely.

I worked under a chef, recently, who is a graduate of the CIA and, while it is not a terrible place to work, he is currently executive chef at a hot foods department at a local grocery. He is a wonderful person to work for, produces great food and seems to be relatively content where he is in his career. His own choices, however, determined where his career took him, and I think that is the case with any chef.

Work, cooking experience, and a little luck determines where you go with your career, not necessarily which school is on your diploma.

Bourdaine's article was written, I believe around the same time as Kitchen Confidential, so it does have a feeling of bitterness and anger which his book also has. I'm not saying that what Bourdaine  has said about the culinary world - the long hours, constant stress and meager pay - isn't true, but that perhaps he is missing out on what good there is in the profession.

As a future culinary student, I would hope to God that there is more in my future than working a 12 hour shift at a turn and burn operation for $9.00 an hour. If there isn't maybe I should reconsider what I'm doing. . . . .


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I think tony was spot on, he explained the road he took, and the road to take for success. This article shouldn't stop anyone from getting into the culinary profession, it just shows you need balls to succeed. Tony explained how the choices you make early in your career pave the way for the opportunities you will be offered and deserve in the future. The people that succeed in this business are the ones that learned early and made most of the right choices. I have had Chefs that have worked in good restaurants with years of experience come to me for a $10 to $12 an hour job. I have seen everything Tony talks about, and have fallen into a few of these traps myself. The only thing that kept me on the right track was my passion and wanting to succeed at any cost. If you want to work in this business you have to be the best, if you want to be the best you have to take chances, work hard, think on your feet, have a high level of drive and determination, be cocky, follow through and do it. The way I got into this business was being Cocky, I told a GM and Catering Manager, if they gave me a job, I would be managing the place in 6 months, they hired me so they could watch me fail. That was my first Restaurant job, 30 years later, working in over 25 restaurants with many highs and lows, I would not change one thing. Every bump in the road Will either make you stronger or kill you, it's your choice to lay down and die, or stand up and succeed. Tony's article will weed out some from entering into this field, it will also give the more passionate more drive to take the challenge and succeed.......................ChefBillyB


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I have a friend who just got out of culinary school. He got a job through the school but was fired after the first week, because he was just not fast enough.

He is 32, rather overweight, and his reasoning for going to culinary school in the first place was "well, I like cooking, and I don't suck at it."

Well, that and he had failed as an actor. Had he spoken to me about it beforehand I would have done everything I possibly could to talk him out of it, because to me, even before I read the article, "I don't suck at [cooking]" is a really, really bad reason. To be honest, even being *awesome* is not that great a reason, because it is a pretty long and hard road just to get to cooking anything at all, so the "like" of cooking (notice how he didn't say "love" which was another tip tat this might not have been the best way to go) isn't necessarily going to get you far enough in the career. Personally, If you're really awesome, why can't you just get a job cooking right now? If you really want to do your own thing, borrow money to start a food truck or take out joint instead of borrowing for school. That way if you don't cut it you can at least sell the setup to someone else, or just declare bankruptcy. Business loans can be discharged by bankruptcy. Student loans cannot.

I am not entirely talking out of my ass here -- I've never cooked professionally but I've worked many different jobs to put myself through school, including some restaurant gigs. It's a hard, hard life, and the payoff is not that hot for the vast majority of people.

But he's in hock for it now and I am not really sure what to do except to tell him to get right back out there as soon as possible so he won't forget what he's spent thirty grand learning. And to lose weight (I have always told him this before I read that article just because being fat will kill you even if it doesn't kill your career first).

If you guys have any other tips, I'd love to pass it along.

Damn I'm glad that this is only a hobby for me.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

my chime about bourdain...

anthony bourdain is writing from the perspective of a man in mid life (hopefully), looking back...his opportunities, his choices, his final reality. he worked at Las Halles, while not a great restaurant, one respectable enough to assuage his ego, afford his 'lifestyle', and not have to work endlessly. sex, drugs,rock and roll were the everyday mantra, remember.  we share the same generation and the planet was clearly a different place in the 70's. sexual revolution, protests, free speech, woodstock(69'), flower power and drugs...lots of them!!!   i find mr. bourdain to be funny, charming, warm, honest and insightful...plus, he's a new yorker...what's not to like?! he admits he made bad choices and that he is probably a better writer than chef, but i didn't come away with him having any major regrets really, well, with the exception of spending/wasting so much money on his drug habit...compounded over the years, its major bucks...i applaud mr. bourdain for still contributing to the world of food that he loves and on so many levels....most of all, i love the F word......

funny, funny, funny, funny...aha, gotcha!!!!!

joey

thanks pete for the link...i also applaud you and chef ed for still contributing on a daily basis...thank you both....


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Both Chefs Billy and Bourdaine are right on the money. I think I know because I taught both in a for profit culinary school and in a public vocational  free enviorment. I taught the same things in both. 1 was  $ 20,000 year the  other free. Again It's not the school it's  the  student and how far he wants to go. !

One of best first jobs I ever got was I wentt for interview in a proposed huge brand new place that was not opened. Owner asked me what I paid my waiters, I told him and he said "I pay my valet parking guys more"  I said to hi "well that makes me smarter then You"" He said to me YOUR HIRED. that association lasted many good years..


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Well, I told him that he would do well just to get line and prep experience.  Hell volunteer at a soup kitchen if he needed to, as long as he can get a lot of volume done and increase his speed.  I think the worst thing to do there is to sit on his ass in the meanwhile because that would just make him slower the next time.

But the one thing I never had to heart to tell him is that he may or may not even be suited for professional cooking.  Hobby cooking doesn't always translate well into the pro kitchen, and going into debt to go to chef school without ever having gotten any experience in a pro kitchen first is in my opinion a really, really foolhardy thing to do.  And the pay...  Just like you said -- fact is it's a business and the less they can pay their people and still keep the good ones the better the restaurant does.  So the returns on the investment would be very small for a good long while.

I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing.  I'm just saying that I completely agree with Bourdaine that given what people get paid starting out and how low the success rate is, going thirty grand into debt just to get into the business is something that should be considered with great caution.  If someone can tale it for free, more power to them.


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## pcieluck (Dec 9, 2010)

Can anybody elaborate a bit on what he was saying about hotel chefs? What specifically does he mean?  I mean, you go to large resorts and you see a good dozen restaurants in them, is he talking  about chefs that work in those restaurants or more along the lines of... maybe room service...or... I have no idea what else a hotel chef might do.  I know the resorts near me, many of the cooks for them have union jobs. I think of how hard of work I do with no breaks, no benefits, low pay and all, and I think "WTF? UNION? What a bunch of prima donas!"


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

durangojo said:


> my chime about bourdain...
> 
> anthony bourdain is writing from the perspective of a man in mid life (hopefully), looking back...his opportunities, his choices, his final reality. he worked at Las Halles, while not a great restaurant, one respectable enough to assuage his ego, afford his 'lifestyle', and not have to work endlessly. sex, drugs,rock and roll were the everyday mantra, remember. we share the same generation and the planet was clearly a different place in the 70's. sexual revolution, protests, free speech, woodstock(69'), flower power and drugs...lots of them!!! i find mr. bourdain to be funny, charming, warm, honest and insightful...plus, he's a new yorker...what's not to like?! he admits he made bad choices and that he is probably a better writer than chef, but i didn't come away with him having any major regrets really, well, with the exception of spending/wasting so much money on his drug habit...compounded over the years, its major bucks...i applaud mr. bourdain for still contributing to the world of food that he loves and on so many levels....most of all, i love the F word......
> 
> ...


If it is in fact a new generation then how come of the last 6 guys who applied for cooks and line cook jobs I had . 5 of them failed the drug test?? You can't blame a generation for ones individual life style choices. They chose it of free will.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

*LOL. Crack Me Up!!!*


> I think of how hard of work I do with no breaks, no benefits, low pay and all, and I think "WTF? UNION? What a bunch of prima donas!"


OK. So what you're saying is that given the chance to make everything in your career better and beneficial to you, you wouldn't jump like an angry kangaroo on a hot-plate, for a chance to join a union? _Hhhmmmmmmmmm ........................_


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Uh... 'scuse me, but wtf is a Union gonna offer?

$38.99 /hr? Yeah sure, and for one 4 hr shift per week until you pass the arse-kissing exam, a.k.a.. the "seniority" where you "qualify" to earn 1/2 of the stated Union rates IF you an work a minimum of 160 hrs/mth and not exceeding 164 hrs per mth, (whic no one gets unless they're a brown noser or a relative of the shop steward) and that will "qualify" you to next earn 2/3 of the stated Union rates. And so on and so on...

Don't "qualify"? Then you get _A _ 4 hr shift per week or maybe a max of 16 hrs per week. P/t get nothing else, no benefits, no nothing, and are "not entitled" to any Union representation for a min. of 3 mths, and in some cases a max of 9 mths. "Course, their paychques are garnisheed, regular as clockwork, but I'm digressing here, aren't I? (Deleted)-ing hell, P/t ers won't even get invited to the annual Christmas party or BBQ unless they're told by the shop steward that such things actually exist.

For (deleted)'s sakes, 90% of the employees I've hired in the last 10 years have been "Union" boys looking for a way to make rent all the while holding on to their precious one or two shifts per week at the Union place, waiting until someone dies and leaves a slot open to move up. Quite a few guys have held on to 2 or even 3 p/t jobs.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW! Just a little bit testy there huh?

Do you watch the news or read a paper? Are you at all aware of what is going on in the United States at all lately? If not it's OK. But still ..........

Levity _from:_ 

[h2]lev·i·ty[/h2] [lev-i-tee]

-noun, plural -ties.
1.
lightness of mind, character, or behavior; lack of seriousness or earnestness.

*Origin: *
1555-65; < Latin levitās lightness, frivolity, equivalent to levi ( s) light + -tās -ty[sup]2[/sup]

-Synonyms 
1, 2. frivolity, flippancy, triviality, giddiness.

World English Dictionary

*levity * (ˈlɛvɪtɪ)    - *n * , _pl _*-ties* 1. lack of seriousness

Word Origin & History

levity

1560s, from L. levitas (gen. levitatis ) "lightness, frivolity," fromlevis "light" in weight (see lever) + -ity.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I really dislike the way he is saying the older are out of luck and are so slow. I know this doesn't fit every person of an older age, but look at Jack Lalanne,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne#Timeline:_LaLanne.27s_feats

Not every 40 year old is some fat and slow worker.

I am quite young (16), but I love cooking. I don't think I will be some star chef, but I would really enjoy being in a nice restaurant. I wouldn't care if I had to beg my way in to scrubbing dishes and cleaning the kitchen. Just to be around the culinary dishes. Going to culinary school would pretty much be out of the question, cost would just be too much.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah Iceman, just a wee bit testy on that subject.  Things might be different in the States, and for all you guys out there I hope so, but over here hosp. Unons are just a sham for garnisheeing paycheques.

Two years ago the Prov. Gov't was overhauling it's  rules for the classification and benchmarks for "Cook".  What they came up with was a period of schooling, followed by a number of hours in the workplace (cook 1), then repeat for Cook 2, and then again for cook 3, which lso includes a batttery of written tests as well as a practical.  The Community colleges bought in, and since have redesigned it's culinary courses to meet with the new requirements, seveal of the private schools bought into it as well.  All Unions were also invited to "buy in" into the program, only one (1) did so.  The benefits are enormous, as with each progression a pay hike follows, as well as a cast iron- brass bound standard to base a "Chef" classification later on.

Ya'd figure by now they'd have thunk that there's two ways to make an employer pay more:  Put a gun to his head, or to offer a set of benchmarkes and standards to base a pay scale on to

Nope, it's "Seniority rules" and Garnishee the sucker's paycheck and tell 'em they ain't elligable for diddly-squat even though they've been paying  for X years.

I need a beer now...............


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## pcieluck (Dec 9, 2010)

Gordon Ramsay. Dont know how old he is, but he's starting to look old. Hyper active and quick while he's working.

*Edit*: Please refrain from using obscenities in the forums. Thank you!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Unions  My Take.  Being from NY I have dealt with many unions.. In their day they were good as they stopped employees from being exploited. Those days however are over. The restaurant and hotel unions in NY were controlled by organized crime. All they did was collect initiation and dues from employees and threaten employers.. Many a union officer was indighted and convicted of all kinds of things. The unions basicaly Killed The Hen That Laid The Golden Egg. I  have never joined one although approached. My answer to them was I do not need you. you need me.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

"Join" a Union??????

Ya don't.

It's kinda like buying a dog that has fleas:  Want the dog, ya have to take the fleas, don't want the fleas, don't buy the dog.

You don't have a choice, if you work in a "union shop" you are a member.  Every place that I've worked in had this policy, and none of them even offered a form of recognition, ie a "Union card", just those alphabets and deductions on your paycheck. Heck, some of them didn't even have a shop steward, and none of them ever provided you with a  financial statement--just to see where your dues actually went to.

Heard in Vegas and in other places now you have the option of not being a union member--but they will still garnishee your paycheque, in that matter you have no choice.....


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

chefedb said:


> If it is in fact a new generation then how come of the last 6 guys who applied for cooks and line cook jobs I had . 5 of them failed the drug test?? You can't blame a generation for ones individual life style choices. They chose it of free will.


chef ed,

it is not my intent to totally blame a generation for AB's drug use and addiction.....just sayin...

coke and heroin in the 70's were very socially acceptable. kitchens are high stress, high energy and exhaustive, and i am surprised we didn't lose more young talent to the harsh mistress of drug addiction. most chefs were messed up on something, while maybe not while working, very soon afterwards...again, it begs the question...enviornment or genetics? AB was a young chef fresh out of culinary school who believed he could have it all...yes, it was his free will, his choice...he was wrong...he admits that. the trappings that go along with being a cocky young chef in a highly intense and constantly energizied field were just too hard to resist...as i said before, coke and heroin had social approval in the 70's in new york. no one makes stupid mistakes like the young...don't you remember?

while not wanting to discuss the politics of legalizing marijuana, what about alcohol? if chefs of your generation were made to take a piss test for alcohol, i would bet that most would not have passed...alcohol then, pot now....difference is that pot stays in your bloodstream for 30 days, alcohol just a few. so while your chefs are not working high, they can still test positive for something they ingested 3 weeks ago....stupid test....i am not advocating drug or alcohol use, but people should be able to 'medicate' themselves however they want on their own time, without repercussion. drugs and alcohol are a very real part of cooking/working in a high stress industry...not for all, but most....

joey

*Edit*: Please refrain from using obscenities in the forums. Thank you!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Mmmmm....

I guess the fine dividing line is when you _*need*_ a beer or a joint or whatever.

That being said, I have never seen a person develop to their full potential when they need a drink, pot, or whatever.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

*** _Please Note: _

Twice in the last (5) posts the ever-famous _*"F"*_ word has been used _(I'm not talking "Food" either). _Now for all general principles I have absolutely no problem with the use of that type of vocabulary. My problem is with being called out twice for saying things less offensive, both of those times I was issued an infraction. I'm not calling anyone out here because I have no interest in moderation. I do have an interest however in regularity and consistancy.

_OK. I'm done. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. _


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Ice Man: I edited the posts of the individuals for their use of language. I do the best I can to keep on top of the language issue (and try to be consistent as possible). I am sure you can appreciate that it is difficult to constantly monitor every post every hour of the day.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't do drugs (never have) Don't drink(used to have a baileys once in a while) Don't curse    Maybe thats why I was able to retire at 40.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

sounds ideal...

joey


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah-butt, Iceman, what was the _*content*_ of your post?


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

soo, as not to beat a dead horse, i will comment  about another part of bourdain's article....AGE....he is totally right that age makes a difference in the kitchen and anyone who doesn't admit to that isn't being completely honest. the day in-day out physical demands on one's body is huge and very,very real...fatigue/sleep deprivation is a real killer as well as standing for long hours, bending, heat, heavy lifting all before having to move lightening fast during service. this ain't kitchen aerobics...it's real,it's constant and it's relentless, which definitely takes it toll over time... as a small agile woman i move pretty darn fast in a kitchen,and still can and do do circles around most, but i can tell you that it ain't as easy breezy as it use to be...after about 10 days of the constant barrage on every muscle in my body, i cry 'uncle'...atleast for a few days...and it takes every minute of those 2 days to recover before the next onslaught...mind you, i am not complaining..just sayin it's harder and it hurts more.......to whomever posted the question about whether shear hard sweat is enough to become a successful chef, i say no, it is not...imo, you MUST have talent....hard work is just not enough and if you are planning on opening a restaurant without talent, you will fail.....okay, anybody got any good news?

joey


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah-butt, foodpump, what is _*the point*_ of your question?


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The world is a much different place than what Tony talks about working the restaurants in NYC. He was talking about front line cooks, kicking ass together, getting off from work at midnight and drinking until 6AM in the morning. I wouldn't think most people that work in this business cant relate to Tony's life style. These are the line cooks that probably know more than most Chefs know abut this business. I'm talking about people that work in the trenches together, have each others back, and party the night away. I don't think a morning deli worker or Hospital cook would even know this kind of  life exists............ChefbillyB


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

IceMan said:


> Yeah-butt, foodpump, what is _*the point*_ of your question?


Point of my question?

I want to know your opions on unions.

If you're for them, I'll just have a friendly chat with your bank manager and help myself to a slice of your paycheque every month, and if you even so much as whine a bit, I'll tell you to go stuff it.

What's happening in Wisconsin is what's happening in Wisconsin. Yeah, yeah, here in CDN we get "Wolf" (tm) (r) brand TV/news that depicts all Americans as fire breathing axe murderers.

Butchyasee, All unions are not the same. I know for a fact that some, and indeed many Unions actually do some good. That isn't the case with Hospitality Unions. Please don't believe me and trott down to any major Union Hotel and ask for a copy of the Union Handbook. Lots to learn in there. Ask for an audited financial statement, and you'll get told two things: They don't have to (False they do, by law, but never have) and two, You're getting your shifts cut down to 4 hrs per month.

So, your opinions on the subject?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Reading Is Fundamental. A very simple concept. Try reading what is in front of you for what it is, and don't read anything into it that is not there. I made a joke about joining a union. A reply was made that seriously counterpointed my joke. I explained that I was making a joke. That's it. What more needs to be said? Am I missing something here?

I fully support and belong to two(2) unions. Neither of which are part of the food-service industry. If belonging to a union doesn't suit your style or needs then OK. I used Wisconsin as part of a joke. I'm sorry if that all went past you. Saying that you would go to my bank for part of my paycheck sounds kind of stupid.

Have you any more questions of me?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ah, I see, a joke.  O.k. then.

I've only worked in the hospitality industry for my entire life, many of us on this site have as well.  None of us have many nice things to say about hosp. unions, and many of us have had negative impact on our lives becaue of them.  It isn't much of a joke.

I urge you to get a hold of a hospt. union handbook and have a good, uh... "read".

Since I don't share your particular sense of humour, perhaps you could use one of those emoticons when you joke around?


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Time to keep it professional, please! Either contribute in a constructive and RESPECTFUL manner or move on.


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## elisah (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm an older student.  Loved the article posted here.  But I'm not in the least bit discouraged.  Maybe because I know myself and perhaps because I am not "normal."


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## jazzcook (Nov 23, 2010)

I dig Bourdain and agree with a lot of what he's saying in that article, but at the same time I think he's really speaking specifically to people who are thinking of getting into cooking because they think it'll be fun and glamorous, like the cooking shows they watch on tv.  The reality is it's not like that at all, it's a lot of hard work and you better really love it or else you will be very disapointed.


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## david reed (Mar 11, 2011)

Way to go. I'm in the process of doing it now. I say in the process, because I have a small pastry business w/ no kitchen of my own and I'm starting pastry school. Who knows what will happen. It sounds like Bourdains admonitions are targeted at people who plan to work in someone else's kitchen, and can't run their own sufficiently until they've worked for someone who went to the CIA. Some 22 yr olds have already been through worse hell than his drug addictions, and they did it standing up, clear headed, and executing with a world of shit happening to them at them same time. Some of us have already run other businesses, and aren't actually drawn to this industry out of a desire to hang out with famous New York TV chefs, we figure we can handle the business part, we just need to learn how a kitchen is supposed to operate, and what really happens when a customer places an order.


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