# Working the grill, any advice?



## garrettjames

I just made the move from a sous at a reputable restaurant in my area to being grill chef at the best restaurant in my area.  I'm a bit nervous because this place is much higher volume than I'm used to, and while I am very confident in my ability to temp meats it's never been the thing that I focus on the most.  I'm sure lots of you have toughed it out on a grill station at one point in your career.  Any advice?  I'm really excited and I really need to be as good as I can be.  They break down all of their own proteins, which is awesome but something I will need to learn more about.  If anyone has any recommended readings or info that would help me it would be much obliged.  Thanks and wish me luck!


----------



## phaedrus

My best (and probably inadequate) advice is not to sweat it. I run the broil station at one of the highest volume (good) places in town. Doing 100 steaks in an hour is really no different than doing 10, it just takes a bit of time & practice to scale things up. The big thing is to learn your individual broiler. They all have hot spots and are very much living creatures. If divide it up into four quadrants; when I'm busy I can keep different proteins in different spots, simply different temps. If you get overwhelmed you can often mark the item then "idle" it a bit on a cooler spot while you figure out what you need when.

About ten years ago I was thrust into a similar situation, going from Exec in a small-to-middling sized place to broiling at the most high end steakhouse in the area. I was talking to my buddy, who also broiled there and did a lot of the meat cutting, and asking him how the hell he could rock out that many strips, chops, chateaus, etc and keep all the temps straight at the speed he did. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't know what he did, he just did it./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif After a while I adjusted to that kind of pace and I see what he means. I do the same thing I did in slower places, just faster!

To start off though, you have to go slow in a hurry...if you get what I'm trying to say.


----------



## phaedrus

Oh, and aim for the bottom side of the temp.  You have to allow carry over, and of course it depends on how long (if at all) the product will rest before being served.


----------



## nicholas beebe

Almost everywhere that I have worked, the broiler is the easiest station when you're busy. Scaling up isn't that big of a deal. The hardest part is keeping track of what you owe, and when. I found that it helps a lot to keep your grill organized. It's always dependent on where the hotspots are, but I like to keep everything of a given temp in either a region, or a certain row or column of the grill. You'll also find your job much easier if you can keep your communication with the window/expediter going. Find out what they need now, and make sure they know how long they have on something if they are waiting to fire the rest of the table.


----------



## chefedb

My Trick to working grill. The minute you get the order put it on when its 60% done pull it off. when they tell you fire it put it back on. This way no matter what you can never be caught  without the order  at least almost ready no matter what. Also a hot side and a cooler one


----------



## squirrelrj

How did you become sous of a restaurant without proper knowledge of breaking down fish/proteins?

Good luck on the grill, learn the hot spots, and just know your cooking times, hopefully that will keep you right in line with the other stations.

Also, I agree, pull the steaks a touch early, that way you can rest them and let them come up to temp, I always say i'd rather have a refire of an underdone steak/fish than overdone.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Touch everything.  Everything.  Touching is the best way of temping. 

Fish is usually very definitive about it's done point.  Make sure you use your eyes to check for a band of translucency on the side of a fillet or steak.  You want the fish to not mush or feel hard when you touch temp.  Like most proteins, you want it to spring back. You want the "flakes" to barely open when you press, not completely separate; if you've got definite flaking on both sides of the fish, it's overdone.

There are a couple of keys to breaking down proteins. 

Most important, you need a VERY sharp knife.  I cannot overemphasize the importance of keeping your meat knives SHARP.  You want them at least sharp enough so that they won't force you to hold them too tightly, or use force to cut.  Using a steel is not sharpening.  If you don't know how to sharpen, let's talk about that.

If you're cutting from primals, whole fish, or whole birds -- they're going to "tell you" a lot about how they want to be cut and trimmed.  Use your off hand to feel for the natural places where they want to be trimmed or broken. 

Make sure you trim all silver-skin, gristle, and connective tissue from red meat.  A little fat for flavor is nice, but something tasteless, too tough to chew, and difficulty for a diner to cut out herself -- not so much.

It helps to be very fast and confident with fish.  That's something else which can't be over-emphasized.  Slow, little, hesitant cuts make for ragged surfaces.  No thank you. 

Not all fish cut alike, knowing the particular species makes a lot of difference -- it comes with practice.

Always keep your knife straight in the cut, without letting it twist, wander, or cut on a bias. 

Don't "saw" your blade back and forth when you're steaking, chopping or otherwise portioning.  Keep your portion sizes very consistent.  Consistent portion sizes will help on the grill too.

If you're doing most of the protein prep, your chef's knife isn't a good choice.  Get the right knives.  They don't have to be expensive.  Forschners are not only plenty good enough. but "gold standard" for meat work.  A blade which is a bit too long is better than a bit too short -- at least for me.

No on, off and back on again -- at least for the restaurant you describe. Yes to leaving enough time to rest proteins.  A big fat NO to pre-cooking.  It may be okay for catering outdoor steak dinners and other volume situations; but it is anathema for fine dining.  

The semi-exception to no on and off:  Anything too thick to cook quick relatively quickly should be marked on the grill and finished in the oven.

Touch, touch, touch.  Sharp, sharp, sharp.

Hope this helps,

BDL


----------



## shootoo

Your friend was kind of right about doing it without really doing anything

Once you learn your grill well enough(hotspots, searing spots, where your med-well/well's will sit, ect) you can get to the point where you'll rarely ever have to touch the meat before you know it's done, just timing and knowing how hot where on your grill is going to be

As for breaking down primals, easy easy. Strips, ribeyes, sirloins, t-bones and porterhouses, easy easy, just cut/saw and trim for the most part

Filets can be difficult depending on how you get your loin. PSMO can be difficult because there's a lot of stuff to get off before you have a clean, portionable filet. They come without all of the silverskin and fat it's easy


----------



## chefedb

As BDL says  aquaint yourself with touch"" "Let your fingers do the walking""


----------



## djoko verona

Cook the meat 60% and rest a side and wait until waiter fire the meal.. And just finish it .. That is the most simple way to do it... And try to judge by touch which point of donenes is the meat..


----------



## chefboy2160

Yes the broiler is a living breathing entity so get to know yours well. Touch is the only way to go and it is developed through attention and time spent on the station. Great advice on the undertemp cooking except for the well done and charred rares and expect to get the returns with the waitstaff telling you this was not cooked to the proper temp and having to add more fire as a lot of customers do not know how to order meat and dont take it personal as it has happened to us all!

Also as well as touch after you have cooked a few thousand pieces of meat you can pretty much tell by just looking at it and know where it is. As far as meat fabrication the advice given here is golden( sharp knife and learn how to sharpen ). Now go cook some meat and make the people happy/img/vbsmilies/smilies/licklips.gif


----------



## monkeee butte

time on, time in , time under the grill is the only way to know what you don't know.  when you don't know peek with a paring knife or pray that the unemployment rate is south of 10%.


----------



## squirrelrj

I'm surprised even two Chefs have said to cook the meat xx% done, then pick it up and finish when it's time.. that's horrible advice IMO, and no way to learn the correct way to work a grill station, or any station for that matter.


----------



## chefross

SquirrelRJ said:


> I'm surprised even two Chefs have said to cook the meat xx% done, then pick it up and finish when it's time.. that's horrible advice IMO, and no way to learn the correct way to work a grill station, or any station for that matter.


And so I suppose at your place, you make the customer wait for the kitchen to cook the proteins when the server comes in to tell you to fire such and such a table? Now THAT'S horrible advice.

Many places mark the steaks and cook them a little way, then allow them to sit off to the side until it's time to fire.


----------



## chefedb

When your pumping out 600 a night thats the only way you don't get fouled up.(50% done) Most places start on the grill then put on sizzler and pull off keep warm then when pick up order or fire is called put back


----------



## garrettjames

Thanks guys, today's my first day.  I plan to stay confident, calm and collected; take your guys' advice and turn it into competence.  With your insight I've got a good direction and some good questions to ask the other chefs.  I'll keep ya posted on the good, bad and the ugly and holler if I have any other more specific questions.  Feel free to keep the conversation going.


----------



## grillbeast

Chefross said:


> And so I suppose at your place, you make the customer wait for the kitchen to cook the proteins when the server comes in to tell you to fire such and such a table? Now THAT'S horrible advice.
> Many places mark the steaks and cook them a little way, then allow them to sit off to the side until it's time to fire.


Since the OP said the new restaurant is one of the best in his area I can almost guarantee that the chef or sous will be running expo. A good expo will know when to fire everything to keep ticket times low. I would never want to rely on a server who is just as busy as me to tell me when to fire things during a rush.

Know your product and your equipment and have perfect mise. Other than that if you know how to cook on a line you can figure it out.


----------



## chefedb

Not only that what if erver gets busy and forgets to tell you Fire it?  then comes in 6 minutes later and says I forgot to tell you amd expo, so  I need that on the fly?? Your covered if its 50% done .


----------



## grillbeast

You must not know what its like to work on a solid line. Someone is reading tickets and calling fires. Long pickups are fired right away, shorter ones are fired later. Sandbagging proteins (cooking ahead) and resting them only half done causes most of the juices to run out leaving them dry.


----------



## chefedb

Not in a lot of places here in Florida


----------



## chefboy2160

Sheesh when I worked the Hotel Casinos in Reno a slow night was 700 covers during the week and weekends went up to 1200+ for the PM shift in the Coffee Shop which I ran as a Sous Chef / Restaurant Chef. Our main special was a 4 oz butt steak with a 4 oz Canadian lobster tail for $5.95 and man those little steaks were thick and a large portion of our guests were Asians from the bay area and for the most part they wanted there beef well done. The place only seated 210 and we had a 5 man line and our sales were consistently 50 to 60% of that special plus New Yorks, Rib Eyes,T-Bones, Burgers and Chicken Breast as well as Fish for the Broiler guy! We kept a big pyramid on the cool side of the butt steaks leaving enough room for the other protiens and we still had trouble keeping up with the well dones. Oh and the broiler man was the wheel guy while I did the order/prep/gave the union breaks on the line and expedited. If we fired those steaks to order those lines at the door would have moved real slow and our job was to get them in and make them happy and get them back out to gamble.

It just depends on what kind of outlet you are working as to how you must respond to it as a chef but working smarter on the broiler can keep you out of the weeds for sure/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


----------



## squirrelrj

Chefross said:


> And so I suppose at your place, you make the customer wait for the kitchen to cook the proteins when the server comes in to tell you to fire such and such a table? Now THAT'S horrible advice.
> 
> Many places mark the steaks and cook them a little way, then allow them to sit off to the side until it's time to fire.


Why would the server be telling anyone to fire tables? I wouldn't allow that to begin with.

We run an order fire system, but I assure you, servers aren't telling us when to fire tables.

If you're ok with cooking stuff halfway, then picking it up, great, but I'll stand by my original point, marking off proteins ahead of time is no way to run a kitchen.

Furthermore, if you're so busy pushing people in and out the door, maybe the menu should be done accordingly so you don't have items that are going to take "too long" to cook in the first place.


----------



## shootoo

I'm going to have to agree with the cook on order guys. There's a special section on my grill where well done steaks go to hibernate. The servers know that if a customer orders a well done ribeye or 16 oz strip or got forbid a 12oz filet or porterhouse, they're kooking at 20-25 minute ticket times. They're instructed to tell the table that

Par cooking and refiring is something I've never been taught


----------



## rambo

Touch.  Touch?  Really, chefs?  Touch?  Do not poke that meat, do not squeeze it, do no touch.  Do not touch your index finger to your thumb and touch that muscle on your hand.  Do NOT touch.  Get a cake-tester.  Get 20 cake testers (you'll lose them).  Put that cake tester into the center of your protein, meat, fish, a scallop if you must.  Then take it out and only then do you TOUCH it to the most sensitive part of your wrist- if it's cold, it's raw, closer to body-heat: perfect rare, once rested.  Warmer than your wrist, med-rare, if it starts getting hot, you're already in mid-well to shoe-leather stage.  Cake tester, young man.  The rest of you, shame...


----------



## michaelga

Never seen a cake tester on the line and no way i'm going to have time to futz around with a few dozen steaks and needles over a hot grill.  Besides I doubt I could pick out a cake tester with a pair of tongs and it will be hot hot hot.

Touch - touch touch... 

It allows you to instantly tell where a steak is at.  You don't even need to put your tongs down.

Hell on a pro-grill station I bet the cake tester would take on more heat from the metal portion outside of the steak than the inside of the steak.

Not to mention all the little plastic thingy's melting and falling off.

Thinking this through further... touching anything to my wrist isn't going to give me any useful information.  I've not had hair on my wrists for over 15 years, and I regularly grab things coming out of moderate ovens.  I occasionally snatch things out of the fryer with my fingers...

The poke test will work as it's based upon resistance... that I can feel.

However feeling a 5 or 10 degrees difference on my skin... well exposed skin, i don't think so.

Maybe on a back-yard grill or in a home kitchen but not on the line, and certainly not in volume.


----------



## chefedb

What in Gods name is a cake tester? a toothpic?  If you mean sticking the steak or roast and then putting it near your neck or finger, NO WAY first you are making a hole in the meat so juices run out, you might as well use a meat therm.  Years ago we used to stick an ice pic into roast or steak count to 6 take it out and feel what temp of heat has reached center. Touch with the fingers is just as accurate (If you know how) and does not make a hole or cut.


----------



## squirrelrj

Rambo said:


> Touch. Touch? Really, chefs? Touch? Do not poke that meat, do not squeeze it, do no touch. Do not touch your index finger to your thumb and touch that muscle on your hand. Do NOT touch. Get a cake-tester. Get 20 cake testers (you'll lose them). Put that cake tester into the center of your protein, meat, fish, a scallop if you must. Then take it out and only then do you TOUCH it to the most sensitive part of your wrist- if it's cold, it's raw, closer to body-heat: perfect rare, once rested. Warmer than your wrist, med-rare, if it starts getting hot, you're already in mid-well to shoe-leather stage. Cake tester, young man. The rest of you, shame...


This method is no more useful than using your hand to feel the meat. In fact, it's another step you have to make (picking up, poking meat, putting tester to wrist) and will waste you time in the long run.


----------



## squirrelrj

chefedb said:


> What in Gods name is a cake tester? a toothpic? If you mean sticking the steak or roast and then putting it near your neck or finger, NO WAY first you are making a hole in the meat so juices run out, you might as well use a meat therm. Years ago we used to stick an ice pic into roast or steak count to 6 take it out and feel what temp of heat has reached center. Touch with the fingers is just as accurate (If you know how) and does not make a hole or cut.







  








ateco-1445-cake-tester.jpg




__
squirrelrj


__
Aug 4, 2012







This is a cake tester.


----------



## boar_d_laze

I'm with Squirrel on everything. 

1.  Touch, touch, touch, and touch some more. 

2.  Pre-cooking, even if it's only marking, is NOT "fine dining" or high-end "steak house."  It's "volume," it's "chain," it's "event catering," it could be lots of other things, it's not the worse sin in the world, the steaks could come out great, but it's not high end.  And yes -- in the two "fine dining" restaurants I worked in, as well as my own little catering operation (both long ago) -- we made diners wait.   

That said, no matter what you know or think you know or passionately believe, the chef already has a policy about pre-cooking steaks and a lot of other things.  The thing to do is ASK.

BDL


----------



## squirrelrj

boar_d_laze said:


> 2. Pre-cooking, even if it's only marking, is NOT "fine dining" or high-end "steak house." It's "volume," it's "chain," it's "event catering," it could be lots of other things, it's not the worse sin in the world, the steaks could come out great, but it's not high end. And yes -- in the two "fine dining" restaurants I worked in, as well as my own little catering operation (both long ago) -- we made diners wait.


I should also note, i'm not saying it's the worst crime you can commit in a restaurant, but you made my point since I couldn't get the words on the screen, it's just not fine dining.. it screams "turn and burn" restaurant.

Servers know they're looking at 22-25 minutes for a table that has a well done 10oz filet on it, so if the course is fired while they're eating appetizers or salads, there is zero lag in the flow of their meal.

Also, do you just assume how many items to mark off to 50% before service starts? what happens to those meats that don't end up selling that night? use them the next day? throw them out? either way, the meat isn't the same as it was in raw state, and your product is a ton more inferior than it could have been.


----------



## chefedb

A glorified icepic. Even a nail would work


----------



## chefedb

BDL  you can't agree  on everything, I know you would not stick a steak with anything . I suppose most people here would not cut steaks with a laser either?


----------



## rbrad

touch is the only way that works efficiently ... nobody should be working the grill that can't do it. i didn't know what a cake tester was either, seems pretty impractical. i guess if it worked that great it would be called a steak tester. i agree about not jabbing the meat and that if you absolutely have to a thermometer would be a better method. i also don't agree with pre- cooking, pre -searing or pre- marking steaks and i've worked in some very busy places. you should have enough feel to know when to throw on a medium well or well without it being called. in the case of the $5.99 special i'd think that you would just have steaks cooking the entire time ,especially if most were well done.the poster that said that the busier the grill the easier it is was absolutely correct; it becomes instinct. i had a kid that wanted to learn how to cook steaks properly and we had a steak night on monday or tuesday. i had him touch every steak, for the first 100 i told him how they were cooked, for the second hundred i got him to tell me how they were cooked, and then he cooked the remaining 250 without one coming back. i left shortly after that and he worked steak night for the next two years. he did have a natural feel for cooking though but almost anyone can learn.


----------



## squirrelrj

chefedb said:


> A glorified icepic. Even a nail would work


Yes, a nail would work, what's the point?

I wouldn't, and don't use cake testers. Using the comparison of a nail vs a cake tester that is probably 4x smaller is comical, though.


----------



## squirrelrj

rbrad said:


> i guess if it worked that great it would be called a steak tester.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


> he did have a natural feel for cooking though, but almost anyone can learn.


Sure, but like any other talent or skill that people possess, most people either have it, or they don't. In my experience, this has been the case.


----------



## rbrad

oh i agree, it's just that some people get it right away and it can take some others a long time and a lot of work from themselves and the the other cooks they are working with for them to finally get it. i guess the advantage of taking the time to train them is that they tend to be pretty loyal and will usually stay a lot longer and will do it the same way every time. the disadvantage is that they don't accept change well and if someone new tries to show them a better way they resist. staying on the topic, if you get one of those long term guys that you spent a long time with and put him on the grill they become an expert and you rarely have a steak come back but once again the disadvantage is that sometimes they can't work a different station or jump in to help someone else who is in the weeds ..... it's a trade off and obviously isn't the case for everyone in that situation ; i've seen the hard to train guy become the best cook in the kitchen over a period of a couple of years.


----------



## chefedb

why not use a toothpic to test cakes as people have done for years and years ? I have never seen a cake tester used in an commercial kitchen I have ever been in in over 50 years.


----------



## rbrad

i've been in kitchens since 1986 and i've never seen one before either. why is it better than a toothpick or skewer? does that plastic thing pop up when the cake is done?


----------



## squirrelrj

They're definitely used in commercial kitchens.


----------



## chefedb

Maybe in kitchens you have been in in Boston area, but not in NY or Florida or Europe as far as I have seen. Most use a cheap toothpic, ist throwaway


----------



## twyst

Rambo said:


> Touch. Touch? Really, chefs? Touch? Do not poke that meat, do not squeeze it, do no touch. Do not touch your index finger to your thumb and touch that muscle on your hand. Do NOT touch. Get a cake-tester. Get 20 cake testers (you'll lose them). Put that cake tester into the center of your protein, meat, fish, a scallop if you must. Then take it out and only then do you TOUCH it to the most sensitive part of your wrist- if it's cold, it's raw, closer to body-heat: perfect rare, once rested. Warmer than your wrist, med-rare, if it starts getting hot, you're already in mid-well to shoe-leather stage. Cake tester, young man. The rest of you, shame...


I really hope you're just trolling.


----------



## boar_d_laze

I think the point of using a cake tester is that it retains heat so you can touch it against your lip to get an accurate gauge of the meat's internal temperature. 

In answer to Ed's question... He's right about me.  I never probe a steak; there's too much pressure in a hot piece of meat and it loses too much moisture.  That doesn't mean an instant read isn't useful for some big meat things. 

Remember that I'm purely a home cook now, so this isn't a recommendation for you line apes, but...  When I cook indoors, I can rely on a fairly constant oven temp so can use time per pound with excellent accuracy... if I remember the start time; and when I cook big meat in the smoker, and the meat starts and goes through the entire cook with the probes in. 

BDL


----------



## garrettjames

Anyone have good reads or videos on cleaning short loins, tenderloins, large salmon etc?  I've already done all of these in the new kitchen and can do them again but I'm looking for something to read/watch over and over.  I know mostly it's only going to take practice but I need to get faster.  I'm going to buy new good knives for these things.  I think that if I can't step it up and do these things quicker they'll replace me in a week or two.


----------



## squirrelrj

chefedb said:


> Maybe in kitchens you have been in in Boston area, but not in NY or Florida or Europe as far as I have seen. Most use a cheap toothpic, ist throwaway


The first time I heard/saw of someone using a cake tester for meat was when I was working in Florida. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Like I said, I don't and won't ever use one, but you're delusional if you don't think people adopt this method.

Here's a NYC Chef cooking fish, and using a trussing needle to "temp" the fish for doneness.


----------



## squirrelrj

GarrettJames said:


> Anyone have good reads or videos on cleaning short loins, tenderloins, large salmon etc? I've already done all of these in the new kitchen and can do them again but I'm looking for something to read/watch over and over. I know mostly it's only going to take practice but I need to get faster. I'm going to buy new good knives for these things. I think that if I can't step it up and do these things quicker they'll replace me in a week or two.


Where were you a sous chef? i'm still boggled how you had a sous job somewhere and don't have the knowledge of breaking down meat and whole fish?

FYI- youtube has videos of everything regarding meat and fish breakdown.


----------



## garrettjames

I cooked sous at an establishment that only had four cooks, a small budget and lower volume.  It's not something I boast about, it was merely a job that I worked my way into because I had more determination and creativity than the other cooks.  The chef didn't have a lot of skills that I didn't have, I learned everything that I could and that was when I had to leave.  They ordered in their meats broken down aside from salmon which was broken down all I had to do was pull pin bones and skin.  It wasn't my choice not to learn these things, I simply had never seen it done and had never had it put in front of me.  Also, I'm twenty years old with four years experience and no family in the industry.  I like to think I'm doing alright and that I'm on the right track! I have of course been searching the web non stop since I got the job, just wondering if any of you seasoned guys had specific "classics" that would be good reads for me.  Thanks guys


----------



## chefedb

You are not alone many younger fellows today never learned to break down carcasses or whole undressed fish because it came already doneI was lucky I learned from the old timers of my day. Today some of the instructors in the culinary schools don't even know how. Just like many things are coming already made as is the meat being boxed or pre broken down from the primal cuts. Today many places have to buy bones because nothing is cut on premise . A good fast butcher can save a place a bunle of money even if he only works 2 or 3 days a week.I was not that fast as the butchers or some of the guys I worked with but I could break down 30 to 35 Primal ribs a day into 109s or export . Or 40 or so lamb racks split trimmed and frenched same with Veal Rax. I had great teachers  unfortunatly they are all gone now. The High School I went to was in the 14th street wholesale meat market in New York  back in the 50s and early 60s when the meat was put on a dirty apron and slung over your shoulder from the truck to the cutting room. Health Dept for all intensive purposes did not exist. like it does today. Even some of the delivery trucks short runs were not refrigerated. Funny that less people got food poisoning then then today??


----------



## squirrelrj

There are still great teachers out there.

I was lucky enough to get in with two old school Chefs, young at that.  It's a shame places are bringing everything in cryo and fish already cleaned. How in the world are people supposed to learn the basics if they can't be hands on with these products?


----------



## boar_d_laze

Make an appointment with a good fish monger, get up early and go to his shop for a couple of days and LEARN. Do the same with a good custom butcher.

Some fish are complicated, salmon and most other torpedo shaped fish are not. 

Scale and wash the fish. Remove all scales from your board.
Slit the belly, make an angled cut behind the gills up to the spine, turn the fish, make another angled cut going through the spine and remove the head, gill structure and all the guts with it.
Clean the cavity with plenty of water.
Lay the fish flat, trim the fins from the back and side. Starting at the head, run a sharp knife along the ribs with the tip touching the back bone all the way to the tail. Lift the fillet up so you can see the cut clearly and finish it with your knife flat along the backbone, cutting through the rib cage and freeing the fillet from the tail. Do the other side the same way.
Take one fillet and cut out the rib cage completely. Use your fingers to feel for pin bones, and a pair of needle nose pliers to remove them. Do the same with the other.
FWIW there are a zillion videos on youtube.

BDL


----------



## someday

Hey, I'll back up Rambo 100%. A cake tester is an much needed tool in the chef's arsenal, IMO. I use them all the time. 

On the hot line, obviously, we don't use them for cakes. It's a very simple and accurate method. You get a great cross section of the temperature of the meat. Like Rambo said, if it is cold in the middle, well, still RAW. Cool to blood temp in the middle, rare. Slightly warm in the middle, mid rare. Warm, medium, etc. 

Really guys, it works great. I couldn't imagine working a station without one. It can also be used to test whether food is hot or not. Re-heating a braised short rib? Stick the tester in, wait a few seconds, and test it. Easy way to tell. With something like that, all the "touch" in the world can't tell you if it is hot in the center. Maybe a good squeeze will tell you if it is still hard in the middle, but a cake tester is much more accurate and removes all doubt. 

I'm an advocate of using both touch and cake testers. I mean, touch is great, but every steak is slightly different. Some Filets have a looser grain, or the meat is softer/mushier. These steaks temp different than a "normal" filet. Some of these steaks feel MR when they are closer to MED. Touch works well and has it's place, but so does a tester. 

Works great for fish too. Fried things? Hell yeah. Is my big arancini hot in the middle? I dunno, let me probe it. 

Moisture/juice loss is EXTREMELY minimal. Never, ever, ever been a problem. I would argue that the minimal amount of liquid lost (and, again, it really is very very little, if any at all) is of much less concern than over/under cooking a protein and having to re-fire or even replace it. A properly cooked, well rested steak is the goal. I mean, the probe is probably a little less than the width of a paper clip if you unwound it...very thin. I've done this quite literally thousands of times and have never seen a gush of liquid come out of the tiny hole I made after I probed it. In fact, a rare/MR steak let out no discernible liquid, and the only bits I might see on a MED/MW steak is a few drops of red blood/juice form around the hole. Like I said, I've never seen more than a few drops of liquid come out, at most. 

A cake tester isn't nearly as thick as a insta-read probe. I know that when you stick a probe in meat like that a lot of juice come out of the hole (we've all done it on a roast or turkey I'm sure) but I'm telling you guys, a cake tester doesn't do it. 

Lol, actually, at my current job that I started like a year and a half ago, I walked in on my first day and unpacked all my stuff. The other cooks wondered why I had a cake tester with me...thought it was stupid. They didn't get it--but man, I was on fish station and I couldn't imagine working fish without one (it's how I learned). I continued to use mine, taking my lumps from the guys. Slowly but surely, over the course of a year or so, cooks would ask to borrow my cake tester for various things. A few months ago, we had a new head chef start, and he brought his sous with him. They wondered why I was the only cook in the kitchen with a cake tester...now it's standard issue for everyone on the line. Kinda felt like a trailblazer, and I felt a bit vindicated in the end. 

Just kinda funny to me that they started out thinking it was stupid, but now see the light. 

Rambo, keep it up!

I will also add that it seems to be a high end fine dining technique/method, and I don't know how widespread it is. But in like 4 of the 5 kitchens I've ever worked in, we used testers. Also, words like "jabbing" and comparing them to "nails" is pretty silly. I mean, that video that SquirrelRJ posted featured one of the best chefs in the world, so take that how you will.


----------



## phaedrus

Just to clarify one thing; early on, when I talked about dragging a steak off the hot spot for a minute while you get your bearings I certainly don't advise "sandbagging" at all. I very rarely do this, but it's preferable to idle a few things for literally just a couple of minutes than burn everything up and have to start over (losing all the meat & and starting over at full-time). While ChefEd's suggestion is probably excellent for banquet cooking I really don't need to do this on a daily basis at my job. But it's certainly the norm at some times for some items. For instance, if I'm getting railed out balls-deep I'm gonna count chix breasts on my tickets and then toss on one or two more in the assumption that I or someone else missed one. I have no worry that I'll sell it within a few minutes if it turns out to be long. And if I don't, Scooby Snacks!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## grillbeast

Its definitely about finding a balance for the volume that you do. When I have 15 burgers and a few steaks and salmon on during a rush I'll often pull stuff and "idle" it just like you said so I don't lose track and overcook anything while I'm plating. I organize grill space by meat temp but sometimes you just need an all day count so you can fire ten things them figure out temps as each ticket comes up.

On a side note the chef asked me last night if I had a cake tester since I was picking up a grilled chicken leg in the oven. Probing it to make sure it was heated through was the idea.


----------



## squirrelrj

A Chicken leg that was just being reheated? If anything, Chicken is the one thing I certainly wouldn't trust a cake tester on.


----------



## phaedrus

FWIW the needle probes from Thermoworks are about as thin as a cake tester, and they read in around 2-4 seconds...probably as fast as using the skewer.

One thing you'll also work out as you get used to the particular grill as that you're cooking by the clock in your head and appearance of the item as well.  Given consistent cuts (especially the way we cut our tops) I don't generally even need to touch them to know the temp.  Also, while I do agree that touch isn't an accurate method of temping something like prime rib it's pretty accurate for most steaks unless you're a steakhouse that has some enormous cuts.  A really large chateubriand might also be a little dodgy.


----------



## someday

Yeah thats a good point too. On a big, bone in ribeye (25-28oz), Porterhouse etc. all benefit from a cake tester. Racks of lamb can be tricky sometimes too...

I'm telling you guys, its a great technique.


----------



## phaedrus

I suppose it is a good technique, but I already own 2 Thermopens...


----------



## shootoo

GarrettJames said:


> Anyone have good reads or videos on cleaning short loins, tenderloins, large salmon etc? I've already done all of these in the new kitchen and can do them again but I'm looking for something to read/watch over and over. I know mostly it's only going to take practice but I need to get faster. I'm going to buy new good knives for these things. I think that if I can't step it up and do these things quicker they'll replace me in a week or two.


I don't know if everyone does it this way, but most of the breaking down of tenderloins I do with my hands. Even the silverskin you can fit a finger in and separate it from the beef without cutting the loin and wasting product. I don't really ever put my knife to it until it needs to be trimmed between the side muscle and the loin. Also ask your chef if you're to take the little notches on the underside off. Some places take them off completely for a leaner steak, some leave them on for flavor and bulk

Strips and ribeyes are easy. After you cut enough you can pretty much tell the weight by how thick you're cutting. Some strips are a bit interesting going from very wide to very very narrow, so you'll have to pay attention to each of the last cuts. Trim the fat off however your establishment does and tag it and store

T-bones and porterhouses just need a saw and a trim. You'll probably also need to clean the crevice in the bone too, so watch for that

Fish can be tricky. You've got to be confident with your cuts. If you hesitate, the underside will show it. Take one or two large slices as opposed to several small ones. boar_d_laze pretty much covered the rest of that

I'm not sure what cuts you guys break down, but those are the big 5 steaks right there


----------



## squirrelrj

The 1000's of tenderloins i've broken down, i've never been able to use a finger, or even attemped for that matter, to get silverskin off, i'd be far too afraid of ripping the meat itself.

I'd like to see a demo of someone breaking down a whole, uncleaned tenderloin with basically just their hands.. it just seems like extra work when you can just use a knife.


----------



## kostendorf

i have been on vacation  for  a while and now reading all the posts at once for the first time.   makes me miss north american cooking on a line.  not too much call for the steak cooking in austria.  but some great advise.  the cake tester is interesting might give it a try next time i do a grillteller for the tageskarte.


----------



## grillbeast

SquirrelRJ said:


> A Chicken leg that was just being reheated? If anything, Chicken is the one thing I certainly wouldn't trust a cake tester on.


Your statement makes no sense. I needed to know if it was hot in the middle.


----------



## petemccracken

Perhaps the idea that "hot in the middle" is insufficient for poultry? IMHO, rethermalizing poultry must reach 165°F, not just hot.


Grillbeast said:


> Your statement makes no sense. I needed to know if it was hot in the middle.


----------



## squirrelrj

Grillbeast said:


> Your statement makes no sense. I needed to know if it was hot in the middle.


If you can't see the sense my question made, you might want to reassess your career.

I didn't realize "oh, my cake tester is hot, this poultry has to be 160*+."

If it's being reheated, which is clearly asked in my question, I see no problem, but not temping the chicken to see if it's actually cooked to temp, is foolish.


----------



## braising cows

I get the pleasure to fill in on grill if we are running short on staff or if I don't fully trust the designated grill person on a busy night and I try to be pretty militant about my mise before service starts, clean tongs, sanitzer, sharp knife, clean towels etc. etc. I think my one piece of mise that makes or breaks the station is a resting pan (Full sheet pan with a bakers rack on it) I pull all my proteins about off the grill when they're about 85% Done and allow them to carry over while they rest so I kill two birds with one stone. ALso the one thing I stress to our line cooks is to read tickets from the printer and get proteins on as soon as they're fired from the servers, if your'e working from the first ticket instead of the twentieth you're probably in trouble at that point. I agree that there is no room for "Sandbagging" any food in a restaurant and there are better ways to quickly produce med well and well done steaks.


----------



## shootoo

SquirrelRJ said:


> The 1000's of tenderloins i've broken down, i've never been able to use a finger, or even attemped for that matter, to get silverskin off, i'd be far too afraid of ripping the meat itself.
> 
> I'd like to see a demo of someone breaking down a whole, uncleaned tenderloin with basically just their hands.. it just seems like extra work when you can just use a knife.


Chain side facing you, at the middle of the loin where the silverskin starts exposing itself, pinch it a little bit and work your thumb under your index finger and it should open up and let your thumb under it, then clear as much as you can. I don't think there's many people that do it

Every time I'm breaking down a loin and someone's watching or talking to me they do a double take when they realize how I did it


----------



## squirrelrj

Braising Cows said:


> better way to produce med well and well done steaks.


Besides being butterflied, how are you going to accomplish a better way, or quicker way to produce a 8-10oz center cut filet to this doneness without sandbagging? god forbid American diners have to wait 20-22 minutes to get their meals.


----------



## someday

Yeah, the procedure for the grill for me was to put the protein on right when the ticket came in, cook it, then set it aside to a resting rack to finish carrying over and, obviously, rest. On pickup, i.e. the ticket is fired, you quickly flash the meat back on the grill to get the outside hot but the inside remains rested. I had a spot to rest my MR, M, MW, and W steaks. 

IMO, if you send out a piece of protein (except fish, with the possible exception of 1 or 2 fish) without resting it first, you're doing it wrong. Well, wrong might not be the best word, but you probably aren't serving it at it's best. Meat needs to rest. 

But pretty much every protein gets fired on the order, cooked, then allowed to rest. Flashed on the pickup. 

I actually thought this was standard practice....???


----------



## cheflayne

Lots of talk of resting beef which I definitely agree with and understand the mechanics behind but curious  do most grill people figure time to plate, time to walk plate out to guest into the resting time.

Another question would be how many times do you turn a steak over when cooking it; once, twice, or three times and why. I am not talking grill marks, diamonds, cross hatching, etc; but actually turning the steak from one side to the other?

Also curious, when turning a steak, do you simply rotate the steak over or do you reorient the steak end to end, and why?


----------



## shootoo

cheflayne said:


> Lots of talk of resting beef which I definitely agree with and understand the mechanics behind but curious do most grill people figure time to plate, time to walk plate out to guest into the resting time.
> 
> Another question would be how many times do you turn a steak over when cooking it; once, twice, or three times and why. I am not talking grill marks, diamonds, cross hatching, etc; but actually turning the steak from one side to the other?
> 
> Also curious, when turning a steak, do you simply rotate the steak over or do you reorient the steak end to end, and why?


I do down, flip over, then flip to side that originally went down to make cross hatches, then flip for hatches on other side

Everyone has their own way of doing this. I do it my way because of two things- I don't feel comfortable cooking one side with both hatches with the other side being raw and second for even cooking

Some places still use seasoned flat tops, I don't know how they do it, but I would imagine there would be more flipping


----------



## squirrelrj

Someday said:


> Yeah, the procedure for the grill for me was to put the protein on right when the ticket came in, cook it, then set it aside to a resting rack to finish carrying over and, obviously, rest. On pickup, i.e. the ticket is fired, you quickly flash the meat back on the grill to get the outside hot but the inside remains rested. I had a spot to rest my MR, M, MW, and W steaks.
> 
> IMO, if you send out a piece of protein (except fish, with the possible exception of 1 or 2 fish) without resting it first, you're doing it wrong. Well, wrong might not be the best word, but you probably aren't serving it at it's best. Meat needs to rest.
> 
> But pretty much every protein gets fired on the order, cooked, then allowed to rest. Flashed on the pickup.
> 
> I actually thought this was standard practice....???


Resting should definitely be standard practice, I very rarely flash anything on pickup, though.

Say you had 5 steaks all with different temps, you're saying you still fire them all at the same time?


----------



## durangojo

cheflayne,

for me, or what works for me...i wouldn't call what i do really resting the steaks other than on the plate...i simply do not have the grill space or pass space. i'm very focused on the timing and of course the touching...no cake tester here hoss, who has time for that? and god gave us 10 cake testers right on the end of our hands.... no heat lamp, no putting steaks on and pulling them off, and putting them back on again...that would make me crazy and i'm not sure i could even keep track of them all. when a ticket comes in, i put the steak/filet on, rotate to mark, season with steak seasoning(montreal),turn over in the same place on the grill. sometimes if a new york has a bigger or fattier end i put that end to the hotter spot...i don't move the steaks once they are turned. it may not be the 'correct' way, but i rarely get a refire...usually i get..."my steak temp was spot on"

@bdl.....line ape?   no, me jane!

joey

i do sometimes have to move a steak to give the grill a quick brushing underneath if it's sticking because of the seasoning


----------



## cheflayne

Sounds very familiar to me. The only difference being that I flip steaks 3 times end to end, other than that simpatico.


----------



## squirrelrj

durangojo said:


> season with steak seasoning(montreal)


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## durangojo

color me stupid, but did i make a funny?

joey


----------



## someday

SquirrelRJ said:


> Resting should definitely be standard practice, I very rarely flash anything on pickup, though.
> 
> Say you had 5 steaks all with different temps, you're saying you still fire them all at the same time?


 If you mean put them on the grill at the same time when the ticket comes in, then yes, I do. If I had, say, 2 MR, 2 M, and 1 WD, I would put them all on the grill at the same time and pull them off the grill/out of the oven accordingly.

Resting a while on a rack beside the grill isn't going to damage the steak at all...in fact, as we've established, resting is beneficial. If my MR and M are resting while the WD is still in oven, no problem. I probably wouldn't worry too much about resting a WD steak, since by definition most of the moisture has left the protein, but I would still set it aside until the ticket was on P/U, assuming it wasn't fired since the WD probably take 20-25 minutes.

Just to clarify, by flashing I mean quickly putting the meat back on the grill for like 10-15 seconds a side, to give the appearance/feel of the meat being "hot" when in fact it is properly rested and not hot. As we know, hot meat is overcooked. But a lot of diners don't want tepid feeling meat, so a quick flash for appearances' sake is what I'm talking about. 


durangojo said:


> cheflayne,
> 
> for me, or what works for me...i wouldn't call what i do really resting the steaks other than on the plate...i simply do not have the grill space or pass space. i'm very focused on the timing and of course the touching...no cake tester here hoss, who has time for that? and god gave us 10 cake testers right on the end of our hands.... no heat lamp, no putting steaks on and pulling them off, and putting them back on again...that would make me crazy and i'm not sure i could even keep track of them all. when a ticket comes in, i put the steak/filet on, rotate to mark, season with steak seasoning(montreal),turn over in the same place on the grill. sometimes if a new york has a bigger or fattier end i put that end to the hotter spot...i don't move the steaks once they are turned. it may not be the 'correct' way, but i rarely get a refire...usually i get..."my steak temp was spot on"
> 
> @bdl.....line ape? no, me jane!
> 
> joey
> 
> i do sometimes have to move a steak to give the grill a quick brushing underneath if it's sticking because of the seasoning


Cake testing takes little to no time. Seconds. I've worked the grill in a high end, fine dining psuedo-steakhouse restaurant and never had any issues with my timing or speed using a cake tester. I use touch as well, the cake tester is just another tool to use. It can be useful for a lot of things, but if you are serving a 26oz bone in ribeye, or a porterhouse for 2, it is a valuable tool. It's a valuable tool for a filet or sirloin as well.

Its a good way to double check too...anyone that cooks a lot of filets will know that there are some that the meat is "mushier," and/or the grain is looser. Sometimes the mushy ones feel under temp, like it might feel MR but really be MED. If you are conscientious about what steaks you are pulling out of the lowboy or fridge (like if you know ahead of time that the steak might be mushy) then you can use feel to check, then a tester to double check.

Testers work great of fish as well, where poking and prodding a delicate piece of fish can be detrimental. Fish is kind of cool actually with a tester--take a nice, thick piece of halibut. One way to check for doneness is to stick a cake tester in the center of the fish. If the fish is still raw in the middle, you will feel the skewer "stick" and you won't be able to push it all the way through without a bit of force. If it is cooked all the way, the skewer will pass through with little to no resistance. The trick is to get it to the point at which you feel it stick the SLIGHTEST in the middle and allow for carryover to push it to perfect. Sublime. 


durangojo said:


> color me stupid, but did i make a funny?
> 
> joey


I think he was just laughing at you for using Montreal's steak seasoning.

I personally don't find using rubs/seasonings passe or otherwise inappropriate, but I would almost certainly prefer house made stuff over bought in seasonings. Personally, I'm a dedicated Salt and Pepper Steak person, but I see value in seasoning salts when used sparingly and appropriately.


----------



## squirrelrj

*Someday- *it's nice to see other people out there with their junk together in the kitchen, I wish there were more cooks like you out there.


----------



## garrettjames

So far temping the meats has been the easiest part of my job.  I guess I'm pretty good at it.  It's not too hard after you've done forty steaks in a night.. you kind of get the hang of it.  I must say, because of my nerves, I went out and bought a few cake testers for a couple bucks.  We do 30oz in house cut specialty tbones, porters and ribeyes and the cake testers have proven very helpful.  When you cook these babies for thirty to forty minutes and blacken the outside... touch isn't going to help you.  So until I can feel it in my bones exactly how long they take I'll be using the tester.  I've gotten a lot better at fabricating my meats, but still I'm not like the other chefs that can do it in two seconds.  Me having to breakdown two large salmons, a halibut, two short loins, a tenderloin and a ribeye is only half of the prep that I have to complete in an hour.  The other stuff includes demi, chimmichuri, remoulade, bbq, and other sauces.


----------



## squirrelrj

Rushed prep is never fun, i'm sure you can get ahead on protein prep so you're not doing all that same prep every single day.

Glad it's going good so far.


----------



## someday

SquirrelRJ said:


> *Someday- *it's nice to see other people out there with their junk together in the kitchen, I wish there were more cooks like you out there.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.... 


GarrettJames said:


> So far temping the meats has been the easiest part of my job. I guess I'm pretty good at it. It's not too hard after you've done forty steaks in a night.. you kind of get the hang of it. I must say, because of my nerves, I went out and bought a few cake testers for a couple bucks. We do 30oz in house cut specialty tbones, porters and ribeyes and the cake testers have proven very helpful. When you cook these babies for thirty to forty minutes and blacken the outside... touch isn't going to help you. So until I can feel it in my bones exactly how long they take I'll be using the tester. I've gotten a lot better at fabricating my meats, but still I'm not like the other chefs that can do it in two seconds. Me having to breakdown two large salmons, a halibut, two short loins, a tenderloin and a ribeye is only half of the prep that I have to complete in an hour. The other stuff includes demi, chimmichuri, remoulade, bbq, and other sauces.


Glad you've seen the light brother!


----------



## shootoo

I still don't agree with the cake tester part, but I guess whatever works the best for you to get the food out at the highest quality is best


----------



## durangojo

mostly i'm just curious, if you've literally cooked thousands of steaks and fish on the grill, why would you even need a cake tester? 

i can see however it's usefullness for large cut steaks(porterhouse, t bone etc.), i just can't imagine who eats them!

joey

oops...thought i could attach another quote in an edit...guess not


----------



## cheflayne

I have never used a cake tester, but I can't imagine it not slowing me down. Time to pull the tester out of pocket or wherever it is kept. Time to sterilize between uses. Time to put it back after use. Not to mention the logistics of of sticking proteins on a grill full of say 60 items during a full onslaught of ticket firing. Seconds add up quickly into minutes which to guests feel like hours

I can't back it up with personal practical experience, but to me it seems like there are lots of wasted motions with a cake tester as opposed to a touch and go. Without a doubt, a lot of my success in this business can be attributed to the ability to identify and eliminate wasted motion. That is lifeblood to a chef and or restaurateur.


----------



## durangojo

> Testers work great of fish as well, where poking and prodding a delicate piece of fish can be detrimental. Fish is kind of cool actually with a tester--take a nice, thick piece of halibut. One way to check for doneness is to stick a cake tester in the center of the fish. If the fish is still raw in the middle, you will feel the skewer "stick" and you won't be able to push it all the way through without a bit of force. If it is cooked all the way, the skewer will pass through with little to no resistance. The trick is to get it to the point at which you feel it stick the SLIGHTEST in the middle and allow for carryover to push it to perfect. Sublime.


i can tell when a piece of fish is done by looking at it and gently squeezing or touching its sides even if there are 10 on at the same time...no prodding or poking going on here mon...just happy fish!

joey


----------



## braising cows

Sizzle pans squirrel, with a little finess and pulling steaks to the very front of the grill you can cover them with an upside down sizzle pan to cook through but not torch the outside of the steak.


----------



## xerp

chefedb said:


> My Trick to working grill. The minute you get the order put it on when its 60% done pull it off. when they tell you fire it put it back on. This way no matter what you can never be caught without the order at least almost ready no matter what. Also a hot side and a cooler one


I completely agree with this method. The other method I would suggest as well if you Have any big steaks such as 16oz Bone in Ribeyes, 10oz Filets, 32oz porterhouses.. 10oz pork chops... etc. etc... Any Big Steak set out for about 30 minutes... before the rush I have always set them out or put them in a warmer spot of the make station to bring them up to room temp if I know I am going to sell them within the next hour. It allow for a much faster cooking time.. Just a tip. especially trying to get it out quicker.. if they were to order a well done 32oz porterhouse that you pulled straight from the cooler it would take at least 40 minutes to cook being bone-in and all... Which you shouldnt order it well done in the first place but you understand that it happens.. especially when you serve it ala carte for 56 bucks and they get it well done with ketchup.. Center Cut Prime USDA.... who wants to hit someone? I know I do when I see this guy come in. But hell he pays.


----------



## hotchop

I've been grilling small time for over 40 years. From the picture you give us, it's charcoal grilling that you're doing. Needless to say, everyone has to know how to start a good long-lasting charcoal flame for a thorough charcoal burn. You also need to know when to place the meat unto the grill. If you already know these things, then just skip this post altogether.

First, you wanna stack you charcoal cubits into a pyramidal shaped pile. Then next, you wanna apply or squirt your lighter fluid. Allow your fluid to soak into your cubits for 5-10 minutes. Next, light her up! Allow the cubits to burn until they'er all white everywhere. No black spots are observeable...

Now spread the hot white cubits out evenly. Cover your pit and allow the grill to become evenly heated for just about ten minutes or more. No longer than 20 minutes, depending upon how much you have to grill and how much charcoal was used in the first place. Also the amount of time in which you have to complete your grilling task must also be considered.

Remember:

Placing meat over black charcoal cubits after using lighter fluid, can result in a very distasteful hydrocarbon distillate flavor. Yuck!!!


----------



## petemccracken

Personally, I do not use a liquid fire starter, crumpled newsprint in a chimney does a more than adequate job.


----------



## chefbuba

Weed Burner, the only way to go.


----------



## linecook854

I'm far from a seasoned grill veteran but I will say in my grill experience (75 seat casual place) that cake testers do help me a lot. On rack of lambs they save your live, perfectly cooked each time even when busy. Filets, also, as I think the finger test can be a bit deceptive on these. For burgers and and chicken breasts I think there is no need, sirloins also react very well IMO to the touch test so I usually don't bother. No they don't slow me down (count to 5 when it's in the center) and they are your biggest lifeline on things you may second guess. I've had one send back on a temp'ed item in 3 months of grill work.


----------



## solsen1985

Just my opinion. I used to work broiler in a fine dining steakhouse here doing 300-400 covers a night sometimes more on the weekends. The one thing you realize when you're working grill is that YOU control the pace of the kitchen. That being said, don't take you sweet ass time, but just realize that you can run the kitchen essentially by taking command of the grill. Just don't freak out. And another thing, this whole cooking things 50% is something new to me. I guess that's one way to do it, but from my eyes it seems like the quality of the steak would break down being reheated and everything. Aside from that, back to my "pace" thing. One of my favorite things to do to servers was to speed up the pace by rocking it out. It's hilarious to watch them run around and panic. Master it. And you can be a GOD. lol


----------



## junglist

To add fuel to the fire  set out your proteins so they can come to room temperature and cook faster. Food safety rules say perishables can be left out up to 4 hours, but I like to bring food outside refrigeration for up to 2 hours max. When the first hour passes, I bring out another round of food I may need, and by the time I put the first round away, I have the next round ready to go. I generally only do this with meat, poultry and veg, and I'll set out seafood for a max of 10 minutes _*if *_I am certain there will be no sacrifice in quality and freshness.

Learn to determine temps with touch. To each his own, but for me this is the fastest, most efficient way. Too many awesome juices can be lost poking your proteins, but that's just my philosophy. Learning your grill is key. The only exception for me is chicken, when there is any doubt I just bust out the pocket thermometer.

Be sure to keep the grill clean and hot. Save yourself the trouble of fighting with the food. And having bitter pieces stuck to your food.

Avoid flare ups as much as possible. If you're dealing with marinated stuff (especially with oil), drain/dry as much as possible before firing it.

If you get orders for well done steaks, yell 'kill the steak!', fire that sob immediately, stand back and exchange 'wtf is up with these customers?' remarks with fellow co-workers.


----------



## michaelga

All you stabby - stabby people (no it doesn't loose juices, i've seen the light) why use a paper-clip, ice pick or cake tester?

Why not use a proper thermometer? 

Is it because of cost?

Is it because of having to memorize temps?

Why do you use a slim piece of metal ? (other than the shiv factor)

Use a thermapen....?~?!?!!

I'm fully in the touch camp but just want to know.

Why?


----------



## grillbeast

Reading comprehension is fun! The chicken was cooked to temp. It was being reheated. If salmonella tends to grow in poultry that has already been cooked to temp then that is news to me.

I understand that reading isn't the most important part of cooking but you guys suck at it.



SquirrelRJ said:


> If you can't see the sense my question made, you might want to reassess your career.
> 
> I didn't realize "oh, my cake tester is hot, this poultry has to be 160*+."
> 
> If it's being reheated, which is clearly asked in my question, I see no problem, but not temping the chicken to see if it's actually cooked to temp, is foolish.


----------



## 2scoops

I dont know who told you that putting a stainless steel probe into a piece of protein does not realease juices is but it's not correct. When you take protein off of direct heat it starts to redistibute its natural juices while resting so if there is a hole or tear which no matter how small it is the juices will exscape while resting instead of when cut.


----------



## michaelga

> I dont know who told you that putting a stainless steel probe into a piece of protein does not realease juices is but it's not correct.


Harold McGee, Nathan Myrvold, Kenji Alt-Lopez... and many others have thoroughly debunked the myth of the water-balloon steak.

Resting it after cooking and before slicing is still very important but a poke with a thermometer or fork to flip it will not result in any significant loss of juices.


----------



## oldschool1982

Maybe it's me but like my username, I like the old ways or "dance with the one that brung me". I learned to cook steaks at Cork 'n' Clever and never forgot a step. There, the Broiler man ran the kitchen and as second you were either a BA or BAA aka dishwasher wanting to become a BA.

This company took steaks more seriously than any I ever encountered. Considering part of their logo was "Beef and Booze" that say's it all. Maybe my memory is a bit faded but I do remember when someone trained to be a Broiler-man, you couldn't get the title until the VP or Pres visited your store and had you cook 5 steaks to temperature. No paper clips, no thermometers, no infrared (it was 1983.....) or any other tricks. Nothing but the 10 digits that Durangojo made reference to earlier. It scared the heck outta me so bad I screwed up and never got the chance but it did teach me how to do things.

Cooking in general is all about the 5 senses, but the grill especially! Unfortunately you can only use sight, touch and sound. The guest gets to use smell and taste and no matter what, it's their taste we cater to not ours. So, no matter how much we insist it been cooked perfectly, they are the judge.

Personally, I'd say to everyone stop sticking the meat and try to develope or better yet, use the talent that earned you the position in the first place. Also, everyone should stop with the sizzlers, mashing and smashing while it's cooking. Doesn't do the food any good./img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


----------



## solsen1985

Yeah I completely agree with the statement about having to cook for VP or Pres. When I moved up to broiler finally (after the other guy left because of drug issues) I had to cook all 5 temps plus all the PLUSES mid rare plus, medium plus etc etc. that was nerve racking. lol.

One of the other ways to tell if a meat is done, and i get weird looks when I say this usually, is by the weight. When you handle as many cuts of beef you learn them inside and out. You can easily pick up a filet and tell just by the weight what temperature it is. It is quite amazing when you reach the point of knowing your restaurant's cuts so well you can just look at them and know when you they're done. Crazy, but it happens. They speak to you lol.


----------



## squirrelrj

Grillbeast said:


> Reading comprehension is fun! The chicken was cooked to temp. It was being reheated. If salmonella tends to grow in poultry that has already been cooked to temp then that is news to me.
> 
> I understand that reading isn't the most important part of cooking but you guys suck at it.


Nowhere did you say it was cooked to temp, you said you were picking it up from the oven, so don't toss around things like reading comprehension until you're clear in your original post.


----------



## someday

2scoops said:


> I dont know who told you that putting a stainless steel probe into a piece of protein does not realease juices is but it's not correct. When you take protein off of direct heat it starts to redistibute its natural juices while resting so if there is a hole or tear which no matter how small it is the juices will exscape while resting instead of when cut.


Bunk. You might as well tell me that searing a piece of meat "seals in the juices." The probe is no thicker than a paper clip. And again, maybe, a small amount of juice comes out. But the idea that a gush of liquid comes rushing out is complete nonsense. And besides, a little juice lost from a cake tester is nothing compared to the juice (and money) lost from overcooking a steak.

Listen, you guys don't have to agree with using cake testers. I said it a while ago...its another tool. And a damn fine one. Useful for a dozen different things in a kitchen...it works great for a steak. Works great for a sausage. Works great for fish. But hey, I've worked with some damn fine chefs in some damn fine kitchens, and using cake testers was common and expected. When I see videos of Eric Ripert (upthread) using them, it only validates my position.

I use it in combination with other tools (experience, touch with my fingers, smell, sight, etc) to determine when something is au point or otherwise where it should be.


----------



## squirrelrj

Someday said:


> Bunk. You might as well tell me that searing a piece of meat "seals in the juices." The probe is no thicker than a paper clip. And again, maybe, a small amount of juice comes out. But the idea that a gush of liquid comes rushing out is complete nonsense. And besides, a little juice lost from a cake tester is nothing compared to the juice (and money) lost from overcooking a steak.
> 
> Listen, you guys don't have to agree with using cake testers. I said it a while ago...its another tool. And a damn fine one. Useful for a dozen different things in a kitchen...it works great for a steak. Works great for a sausage. Works great for fish. But hey, I've worked with some damn fine chefs in some damn fine kitchens, and using cake testers was common and expected. When I see videos of Eric Ripert (upthread) using them, it only validates my position.
> 
> I use it in combination with other tools (experience, touch with my fingers, smell, sight, etc) to determine when something is au point or otherwise where it should be.


Don't bother trying to justify it, as long as it works for you in your kitchen, that's all that matters really.

Like I said last year in this thread, i'll never use a cake tester, but I also won't knock anyone who uses one with success.


----------



## linecook854

Just curious, does anyone here not oil burgers before tossing them on the grill? It drives me nuts when people say don't worry there's enough fat in them that we don't need to oil them. Slightly torn burgers and crud stuck to the grill rods every time they don't oil them.


----------



## just jim

linecook854 said:


> Just curious, does anyone here not oil burgers before tossing them on the grill? It drives me nuts when people say don't worry there's enough fat in them that we don't need to oil them. Slightly torn burgers and crud stuck to the grill rods every time they don't oil them.


Perhaps they are being turned/flipped too soon?

Do your steaks stick?

A burger has more surface fat than a steak.....you don't oil your steaks do you?


----------



## petemccracken

Never oiled my burgers, never had them stick either.


----------



## robo

never seen or heard of this being done.


----------



## squirrelrj

linecook854 said:


> Just curious, does anyone here not oil burgers before tossing them on the grill? It drives me nuts when people say don't worry there's enough fat in them that we don't need to oil them. Slightly torn burgers and crud stuck to the grill rods every time they don't oil them.


I've never seen this done, I wouldn't recommend it, either.

They're definitely ftrying to flip them too soon if they are sticking.


----------



## linecook854

I don't flip them often/too soon, just enough time to make a cross-hatch. Am I the only the one here who applies a little oil to steaks/burgers/fish? I always have and the two other places I have worked (one casual, one very upscale) did this too. Isn't this standard? Not  enough oil to cause flare-ups but just a light layer to prevent sticking.


----------



## squirrelrj

linecook854 said:


> I don't flip them often/too soon, just enough time to make a cross-hatch. Am I the only the one here who applies a little oil to steaks/burgers/fish? I always have and the two other places I have worked (one casual, one very upscale) did this too. Isn't this standard? Not enough oil to cause flare-ups but just a light layer to prevent sticking.


If they're sticking, you're flipping them before they're ready to release.

I oil pans, not proteins.

On grill I would put a little oil on Filets, but never burgers, or fish. A little spray release on the grill and fish is usually good to go.


----------



## someday

We used to oil the proteins at a place I worked at. It was more about getting the house made seasoning salt to stick to the steak and get a good char from the grill. This was at a very upscale place too, just for info. 

If your burgers are sticking, as people said above, you may be turning them too soon, or try cleaning and oiling/seasoning your grill.


----------



## oldschool1982

Never oil the meat only the grill! Starting in 1985, most places I used or allowed an oil rag on the station. Basically it was 2-3 bar mops (folded over and taped at at the top to form a neck and make sure they're the old service linens you buy and not new use from the linen service  Basically, the mop sat in veg oil or shortening and was applied after the char-grill was brushed clean. By the way, that was done every chance possible. If your running your station correctly, you have sections that are rotated through and everything doesn't hit the grill like you're at a holiday BBQ. There should be a method to the insanity.Only time I ever put anything on the steak other than seasoning was when we used a mix of clarified butter when working with a convection broiler. It wasn't to prevent steaks from sticking but to enhance the cooking process and flavor the steak.

Not knowing exactly how things are done by everyone here, the General rule would be..........If you have a clean grill, adjusted to the correct temp (somewhere around 3/4 setting + or - ) and you season the grill, proteins shouldn't stick. If you have areas that are burned clean and with white char, it's too hot. It's definitely a feel for things and also involves paying attention to the food and equipment. Running a grill is just as much "art of cooking" as the saute station.


----------



## linecook854

I tried oiling the grill yesterday without oiling any proteins (except the salmon) and it did work, somewhat. I scrubbed the rods with the hard brush really well then oiled a rolled up rag and brushed it over the rods. It took off some black stuff and lubricated pretty well. Burgers didn't stick and neither did steaks at first. However, pretty quickly proteins began sticking and I ended up oiling proteins so they wouldn't stick. I don't have the space or time to scrub and lubricate frequently during a dinner shift as we simply have too many proteins to cook on a small grill.

I'm starting to think the oiling the rods thing is not working because the grill never gets cleaned. The lunch cook NEVER cleans the grill or fryer (he was surprised to hear we even had a grill brush!) and I think I am fighting months of build up. He just throws burgers and chicken on and peels them off with shreds off chicken sticking to the grill and his burgers always have pieces missing when he plates.

Does the grill just need a deep cleaning in order for me to oil the rods and not the proteins? Also, do you guys get a nice cross-hatch when you don't oil proteins? It seemed like yesterday the cross-hatches were not a nice when the proteins were not oiled.


----------



## petemccracken

Clean the grill and season it as you would cast iron or a griddle.


----------



## just jim

If the grill is extremely bad, you could sacrifice an old sheet pan.

When the grill is hot, cover it with the pan, baking all of the build up until it can be brushed/scraped of easily.


----------



## oldschool1982

Just Jim said:


> If the grill is extremely bad, you could sacrifice an old sheet pan.
> 
> When the grill is hot, cover it with the pan, baking all of the build up until it can be brushed/scraped of easily.





PeteMcCracken said:


> Clean the grill and season it as you would cast iron or a griddle.


Both Jim and Pete have it right. As a precautionary mention, I would add to Jim's suggestion to make certain you brush all of the caked on *%#t from the burners, heat diffusers or baffles and remove the drip tray, cleaning all the crusties from out of it. If the grill is in as bad of shape as I am picturing in my head, sounds like no one takes care of the equipment and you can start a fire that will get out of control. Ansul system clean-ups are the worst (been through 4 of them) so keep the small portable extinguisher or a ton of baking soda handy and do this at the end of the night. Also make sure you have your Manager's/Chef's/Owner's permission. It won't hurt the grill to do this every so often but it will make a huge difference on how well it operates......for the better. Don't do this if your grill uses those useless briquettes, the "pot metal" the rack is made of and briquettes will not take the heat. Maybe a good teardown and clean-up is in order for the grill.

Ironic that before I made the second post the other morning, I just had a conversation about some of this exact stuff with the KM of my Moose Lodge ./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Edit below:


> Burgers didn't stick and neither did steaks at first. However, pretty quickly proteins began sticking and I ended up oiling proteins so they wouldn't stick. I don't have the space or time to scrub and lubricate frequently during a dinner shift as we simply have too many proteins to cook on a small grill.
> I'm starting to think the oiling the rods thing is not working because the grill never gets cleaned. The lunch cook NEVER cleans the grill or fryer (he was surprised to hear we even had a grill brush!) and I think I am fighting months of build up. He just throws burgers and chicken on and peels them off with shreds off chicken sticking to the grill and his burgers always have pieces missing when he plates.
> 
> Does the grill just need a deep cleaning in order for me to oil the rods and not the proteins? Also, do you guys get a nice cross-hatch when you don't oil proteins? It seemed like yesterday the cross-hatches were not a nice when the proteins were not oiled.


As I was driving around today trying to find a flat-top griddle need at a pancake breakfast for 400 this weekend, all of this sort of made it's way into my thoughts. Scarry huh? I guess it was all the used and severly abused equipment I saw that sparked it. As a side note, most of this stuff wasn't a year old and looked like it'd been through 8 months of 100k weeks with out so much as a wipedown! No wonder these places didn't make it!! Anyhow, all I can say is you can't season carbon and if the grill grates aren't bare metal, no matter how much you oil it won't help. As far as the size of the grill, crowding and cleaning/re-oiling, It can be done. The key is to start the shift with a clean cooking surface. I guess the best way to say it is you wouldn't cook with twice or thrice used saute pans.....would you?


----------



## igmcw

As someone who ALWAYS ended up working grill, whether I was hired for the position or not, I'll throw in my two cents.

If the grill brush and rag don't help then you need a deep clean. My suggestion is this: After service on a slow night finish your regular duties, clock out and then take the thing apart and deep clean it. I mean paint scraper for the grates, degreaser for the drip tray and sides, EVERYTHING. Trust me, it's worth the free labor to have a grill that is clean and works well. There's nothing better than when your grill is performing at top rate and nothing worse than when everything sticks. Plus your chef will appreciate the initiative you take and the dedication you show to your station.

Second. MAKE THE TIME to brush and oil your grill during service. Trust me, its easier to clear one side, brush and oil, then continue service, than to have to remake orders.If your grill is busy and you don't brush and oil, your proteins will stick. No way to get around it. Doesn't matter how well you deep cleaned it, crud build up during service and if you don't brush it isn't going away. Plus thing about how gross it is that the extra crud will be sticking to the proteins you serve.

I truly understand how things can get busy.

My last grill position consisted of:

swordfish
Salmon
Ahi Tuna
Lobster tail
Whole two pound Lobster
Whole 1 1/4 lb lobster
striped bass (when season was on)
Rack of Lamb
NY Strip
Fillet Mignon
Chicken Breast
Burgers
Veggie Burgers
Mixed Grill (one U-10 Scallop, half a lobster tail and a fillet medallion)
We averaged 400 covers for dinner and I had a 36in grill. There is always time to oil and brush if you make time. Once you stop your self and force yourself to do it during service it will become a routine. You will do it automatically and wonder how your ever worked the station WITHOUT doing it.

Good Luck!


----------



## linecook854

Thanks for the valued input everyone.

Oldschool, you are completely right, no matter how much I scrub and oil, burnt on carbon will not season! I cant even tell if the rods are stainless steel or cast iron! The carbon crud is so old that when I first started on another station I couldn't tell there was any crud on the rods because it was so uniform and naturally contoured to the rods it blended right in.

IGMCW, I do scrub during service, in small sections, but do not oil. Do you throw everything to one side and scrub/oil or do you do it in small sections? I know I can get it done if you do that many covers on the same size grill! Also on a side note, swordfish, how do you know when it's done? I'm confident doing salmon but sword doesn't give much of any give to the finger test between overcooked and practically raw. Any tips or tricks with this protein?


----------



## oldschool1982

linecook854 said:


> Thanks for the valued input everyone.
> 
> Oldschool, you are completely right, no matter how much I scrub and oil, burnt on carbon will not season! I cant even tell if the rods are stainless steel or cast iron! The carbon crud is so old that when I first started on another station I couldn't tell there was any crud on the rods because it was so uniform and naturally contoured to the rods it blended right in.
> 
> IGMCW, I do scrub during service, in small sections, but do not oil. Do you throw everything to one side and scrub/oil or do you do it in small sections? I know I can get it done if you do that many covers on the same size grill! Also on a side note, swordfish, how do you know when it's done? I'm confident doing salmon but sword doesn't give much of any give to the finger test between overcooked and practically raw. Any tips or tricks with this protein?


linecook854,

I have no doubt, you can nail this down. Believe me! I've run the grill in restaruants operating at $130k a week and 50% of the menu coming off the grill and from what you've said you already possess the first thing needed to get it right, you care!

Do what has been suggested by IGMCW. Tear the dang thing down exactly how it was explained. It will benefit you, your product and the restaurant as a whole. If you get any resistance or lash-back, explain the same things many here have already said and done. It's a win, win for everyone involved and if you need additional help or support, tell the boss to visit us and well set the record straight./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

As far as swordfish, It's a feel and appearance thing. I've found that if the layers of the flesh start to look like a malnourished animals ribs showing through, it's over-done. Firm with a little give but not rubbery.

The steak cuts of seafood should be cooked like steak. Brush clean and oil grill, season fish. Place on grill, cook for 2 minutes and flip....if your not confudent you can turn the cut with a pair of tongs, use a spatchula. Cook two more minutes and flip giving a quarter turn to get cross marks. Cook 2 more minutes and flip the same way again, two minutes and a quarter turn. pull after 2 minutes. Please note that the thickness of the cut will change the amount of time since 2 minutes each turn is for a cut 1 inch thick.

Good luck with this!


----------



## glenn spriggs

I disagree with pre-cooking whatever % then firing. I use a *Beurre monté (butter and water) in a hotel pan to hold my finished proteins. Brings the temp down to avoid over cooking and allows resting when waiting on saute', dumb servers, or whatever. When expo asks for something i have it waiting there. Toss it back on the grill for a few seconds and sell it. Always cook slightly under!! Always fire when a ticket comes in (if high volume) or else you're in the weeds all night. Like others have said, TOUCH. Eventually you'll just know when its temped correct. Its like playing an instrument, you dont have to think about when to hit the snare drum...you just know. Good luck!!*


----------



## garrettjames

I can't believe this threads still alive lol. I got the job a year and a half ago!


----------



## linecook854

Are you holding the beurre monte in a steam table? Lol at how old this thread is


----------



## dandal87

Rambo said:


> Touch. Touch? Really, chefs? Touch? Do not poke that meat, do not squeeze it, do no touch. Do not touch your index finger to your thumb and touch that muscle on your hand. Do NOT touch. Get a cake-tester. Get 20 cake testers (you'll lose them). Put that cake tester into the center of your protein, meat, fish, a scallop if you must. Then take it out and only then do you TOUCH it to the most sensitive part of your wrist- if it's cold, it's raw, closer to body-heat: perfect rare, once rested. Warmer than your wrist, med-rare, if it starts getting hot, you're already in mid-well to shoe-leather stage. Cake tester, young man. The rest of you, shame...


 this is the go too for all my executive staff and they have been rated best in are area feeling a steak only gos so far but once you train your self what mid rare feels like on your wrist you'll never get it wrong again


----------



## chef jp

Hello there i am new here. I am 20 and currently working the grill in a 70 setter restaurant.I am still pretty new to the station and learning as i go on.


----------



## meezenplaz

Welcome to Cheftalk, congrats on the job. Keep learning and stay passionate.

And read in here a lot--there are tens of thousands of useful posts in here

by seasoned pros on virtually any cooking or culinary subject..

Enjoy.

--M


----------

