# On opening a private supper club? Thoughts...



## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

So for the past year I have been having dinner parties at the house on a monthly, maybe every 2 week basis and using guests, family and friends as guinea pigs all in the name of research while at the same time trying to convince my fiancee to go thru with a Private Members only Supper Club in our house. I have decided that it would be private, held in our dining room(we have a 10 person table), and would be $35-40 a head for a 3 course dinner BYOB with a yearly membership of $40 per person. The guests I have had over the past year have been begging me to go thru with this so they can come back but I have been getting push back from my better half. Today she comes home and there is an article in the USA Today about exactly this and how much fun they are, there are only about 100 of them around the US and they are becoming almost cult like. My plan is to do a single 8-10 person seating on Friday and Saturday night, individual portions but all at once at one table. The table can be reserved by 1 group or it could be by 5 individual couples. I have a website already and just need to get it up and running and get the word out and I should be ready to go. It would be a daily revolving menu I dont think I would offer choices just come in, sit down and be served. It would only be a 2 person operation, with the only overhead as the house and our food expenses. 

Would you guys do something like this? Have you ever been to anything like this? If you have what did you think? I have been out of the restaurant for about 6 years doing R&D, but do work for friends on the line regularly just to keep up my chops and do miss this. What do you think?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Since you're getting paid/charging for the meal, does this trigger any laws? Many locales don't allow you to do business out of your own kitchen and this might run afoul of such a law. 

As to your question, it would depend a lot on the person doing it. I don't know you and can't judge this in your case. It would also depend on who else I'm dining with. 

Phil


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Outside of the legal question, what do you have to lose? I would bank the membership fees for a year in case you need to refund for some reason, but otherwise, why not?


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

You call it a "private, members-only supper club" but what you describe seems to be, basically, a "restaurant." You're feeding people, for money. Out of your home kitchen. What does the local Health Department think about that? 

What if you have a little problem and give 8 or 10 people food poisoning? They could very well sue your **whatever** off. You would be well advised to have insurance for such a possibility. And, incorporated, so they don't get your house and assets if that should happen. 

You need to hear from BDL who is a chef and (God help 'im) a recovering lawyer, about the implications of this idea.

Mike :lol:


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Good idea and in these economic times it could really fly. BUT you are entering a grey area as far as laws, rules of county, state and regulartory agencies. 
If it be private and only friends comeing and sharing expense it could fly, but to do for a profit it wont. Suggest you call local health dept for info.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I will put a link to the article that describes what I want to do in detail. It is all about skirting the local laws, no taxes, no health dept, no regulations and no codes. A place to have a meal and make a "donation" towards the cost of the food. The only real profit is supposed to be in the membership. No advertising just word of mouth and my website which I have its just not "built" yet. Here is the link.....

'Secret Suppers': Thanks to Garbee, not so secret anymore - USATODAY.com

Oh and I am already incoporated from a different business that I had. Technically I can run this business thru that if I had to.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

So, USAToday has discovered the underground restaurant scene.

Shoot! There goes the neighborhood!


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Thats it!!! The press announces it ,now the state, county, city, fed. tax authorities also know as does local health departments.. The party is over!!!! In Florida you must obtain occupational license.


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## jbd (Mar 17, 2008)

Here's a fairly recent thread about this
http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/food-...staurants.html


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

You might also want to consider the impact of local zoning laws. If you do not happen to live in a commercially zoned area you will be running afoul of these types of laws. One annoyed neighbor could make your life and operation extremely uncomfortable. 

With your under-riding purpose stated as skirting health dept., tax and insurance laws, you are opening yourself up to a world of liability-incorporated or not. Local health dept. and business ordinances are there for a reason-to protect the public. By doing what you are proposing, you intentionally undermine those laws as well as other business owners who play by the rules, follow the law, pay their business and licensing fees and taxes, etc. etc. and thus, reduce their chance of success by drawing potential business away from them. 

Using your other incorporated business as a cover is no guarantee that your personal assets would be safe from a lawsuit. Your former incorporation is written for a specific type of business on all official records. Running a different business without declaring a change of venue to the governing and insuring organizations could constitute fraud.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I think you are missing the point of what I want to do. Currently I work in a very scientific lab world and I want to once again do something creative and fun without the hassles of city govt, bank loans and health depts. Just a place to have ppl, no more than 8-10, come and enjoy what I love to do, and thats cook. In this economy it would be stupid to leave my job which is very stable and start a new business but this way its more like a hobby, I could still cook for guests on a Saturday night and keep my day job. I wouldnt think of it as taking money from one of the few restaurants in the town I live in but rather to expand the culinary palates of those that live near me.


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Just because others around the country are doing this doesn't mean it's okay. (and now that they've been "outed", many of them may even be in serious trouble). As others have stated, this idea runs against the grain of the governing bodies...local, county & state. Also, you would need to notify your home-owner's insurance of what you are doing so they can write the additional coverage into your policy. Being 'incorporated' is probably not going to protect you if a guest is injured in any way in your home, and your homeowner's insurance probably does not cover injury that occurs during illegal activity.

You asked if this was "something others in this forum would do?". I think having a 'dinner club' that meets once or twice a month over a fabulously prepared and elegantly served meal is a great idea, and worthy of development. However, I would not consider doing it underground to avoid complying with the laws that apply. The legal and financial risks of getting caught are too great. No, it's not something I would do.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Let's stop splitting hairs about legality and health dept. issues.!!!! It hurts me a little inside....

America, as a whole has gotten crazy with bureaucracy. You're a guy/girl who likes getting together with 10 people, and eating....do there REALLY need to be laws around this? On the other hand, if you go to a 'supper club' get sick, do you REALLY need to be sue happy because you took a risk? no. it's called RESPONSIBILITY. 

I'm part of a few "clubs" chess, motorcycle, etc....I pay some "dues" monthly/yearly/whathaveyou/coverthe beer/bring an app, we have dinner at someones house monthly....sometimes its 30+ people. I'll be damned if I can't do that...in America, without permits, and bureaucracy and health codes. 

On a side note, I'd be willing to say that people hosting dinner club dinners, are far cleaner than many restaurants from a health dept. perspective. 


let's put it in perspective....say 10 of you here on cheftalk (our "club") are local to me....and monthly, we all chip in say 25$ a person and have a dinner at someones house who we pick out of a hat.....do we REALLY need to get all bent out of legal/health shape about it? are we all grown-ups?


P.S. I'd like to bring back basement bars too.  So at least I can get a made-right Old-Fashioned (with rye) and not have to watch the baseball game and its stupid fans while drinking it! haha.


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## tonybroccoli (Oct 22, 2008)

i totally agree ..if you want to get all legal about it i think its against the law to spit out your gum if it not into the trash


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks for everyones feedback, I am going to be doing a test run in the next few weeks while I figure out which approach to take with this and what direction to take it. Ill keep everyone posted


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

the only direction i need are the ones to your house :lol:


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Depending upon where in Jersey you are and how far into Pa you are willing to drive you may get an "invite".


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm in South River, NJ 08882 and whats the menu look like!?  haha.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Ill shoot you out a sample of the menu in the next few days. Unfortunately you are 3 hours away.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Maybe. Maybe not. I might have overstated concern for the impact on other food service operators, but I do believe that what you are proposing undermines laws and regulations that protect the public and are in place for good reason. 

If you charge people money to sit at a specific location and eat food prepared by a specific person (or people) you are, in the eyes of government, running a restaurant. It does not matter whether you serve 2 people or two hundred, whether you make any money at it or not. (There are many, many in the food service world who make no money at it at all.) Therefore, you must comply with all local and state ordinances that govern food service. 

Supper clubs are a lot of fun, though. I've been a member of one for several years. What makes it different from what you propose is that the membership designates a facilitator or club leader for a specific duration of time and everyone has a voice in the direction the club takes. Everyone is also aware of the risks they take by dining in another person's home and agreeing to sample their club members' personal tastes and abilities. 

Ours maps out a year's worth of monthly meetings, where they are to be held, and what will be the theme of each dinner. The facilitator is in charge of keeping up with the membership list and informing everyone about the time, location, theme and other specifics regarding upcoming meetings. Generally, the person who hosts the dinner (and sometimes their parter or spouse) does the menu planning, shopping, cooking and serving, but occasionally, one of the hosts will use someone else's home because they have more room, a better kitchen, etc etc. Once every few months we have a themed potluck dinner where individuals are responsible for a course or beverages. Sometimes we have a traveling dinner where we'll start at one person's home, have a drink and app, then go to another for the next course and so on. 

The money we take in at each dinner is a true donation at the discretion of each member as they walk in the door. It goes to the host to cover expenses and if there is some left over, the host is a lucky one. The choice of the menu, it's difficulty or lack thereof is left to the host. If people join the club, but do not donate or contribute to clean up, they generally do not get the email about the next meeting's specifics, though this has only happened once. 

Of course, other supper clubs are organized and run differently, but this works for us. It's primarily social in nature with food as a unifier and general starting point for discussion. The result is that over the course of a year, everyone gets to try new foods, learns something new, meets new people and has a very good time.

BTW, as a personal aside, chefs and foodies who believe their mission and goal is to "educate the public's palate" grate my fanny. I find that attitude kind of arrogant and snobbish. Taste is personal and subjective. A good friend of ours won't ever touch a piece of fruit or a vegetable, but has been nominated for a Pulitzer. :crazy: ....and I'm supposed to teach him a thing or two about food? Who cares!? but I love it when he comes for dinner- the conversation makes even the worst pizza and stale peanuts enjoyable.


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Even with the most careful of people, things still happen. A guest in another person's home has a reasonable expectation of safety, whether it's tainted food (probably the least likely thing to happen), a frayed carpet, or ice on the steps. It is up to the host to ensure this safety. When the "party" is for profit, there is even greater liability. I didn't say I would sue. But it is a very real possibility that someone might. _And it is important to be prepared for that very real possibililty._ Even if a person doesn't sue, per se, if some injury occurs they would at least want to have any expenses covered, either by your insurance, or out of your own pocket. Will the "members" be required to sign a waiver of liability as part of their enrollment in the club? Would such a document hold up, if the injured party can prove negligence?


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

that's what I'm saying though, has it REALLY (i mean. it HAS really) come to the level of someone being worried about frayed carpet in there house....oi-ya-oi haha what happened to self responsibility.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Its really sad that it has dwindled down to such a level. I have a question, Do you eat out? If you were to get a stomach ache after dinner would you automatically assume that it was where you ate dinner? Would you sue because you had the runs? 

Give me a break, if you are a guest in my house and you help to cover the cost of the food, not for me to make a profit but to get the best possible quality product. What would you do if you over ate and got sick? Would you sue me? If you went to use the bathroom, washed your hands, spilled water on the floor and slipped would you sue me? 

If you or I worried about these things you wouldnt ever let anyone in your house. If you dont know me you arent going to be invited, and if you are invited or get an email its because you have already been over during the past year. You cant live in fear of what might happen, life and sucess is about taking chances otherwise you get stagnant and complacent and nobody wants that.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Let's drop the legal aspect. The issues have been raised so let's move on to the original question. Would you patronize such an operation?


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Probably not.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

In a heartbeat.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

As a matter of fact, I'm planning on cooking a nice Sunday dinner this weekend. I'm no professional chef, but Eric Ripert, on his blog, is creating a few seasonal menus for people just like us. He is calling it Eric Ripert | Avec Eric - Market Table Dinner Social . He just came out with one that I'll be cooking (so far for only NRatched and I) on Sunday....anyone on here who's from NJ is welcome to come over, bring a bottle of wine or 2 and we can have our first "supper club"

*Canapé 1
Caramelized Onion and Olive Croustade*
This croustade is a sweet, salty and rich combination of flavors, and is a nice start to any dinner party. It is easy to pick up and eat, no utensils required.
*
Canapé 2
Endive Spears with Blue Cheese and Duck Prosciutto*
The duck prosciutto in this canapé is a great pairing with the blue cheese and bitter endive. But if you cannot find it anywhere, traditional prosciutto works just as well.

*First Course
Fall Pumpkin Soup with Spiced Pumpkin Seeds*
This soup is the concentration of fall flavors and spices. The creamy pumpkin, the spiced seeds - sweet and savory. Serving the soup in a pumpkin is an easy way to complete the dish and impress guests.

*Entree
Roasted Leg of Lamb with Fingerling Potatoes and Marinated Market Vegetables*
A whole leg of lamb is a beautiful thing. Roasted to perfection and paired with seasonal vegetables it will truly satisfy. Remember to baste frequently so that it will stay moist.

*Dessert
Maple Roasted Pears with Bourbon Chocolate Sauce*
Pears are a delicate fruit, but when they are roasted and caramelized their flavors become concentrated. The bourbon adds a bit of a peppery kick to the chocolate sauce, you can also use an Irish whiskey or scotch.

Be a shame to make all that for just the two of us!


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

Chefhow-

I've been in two "gourmet" supper groups, but nothing like what you're proposing. The participants meet at one another's home, bringing dishes and wines organized around a theme or cuisine. No money changes hands. 

You're just proposing an underground restaurant. As a conservative, I appreciate your independent, entreprenurial spirit, but I think you're out of your mind. 

Good luck, anyhow, if you're determined to go ahead. Just be sure to wash your hands a lot.

Mike :chef:


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

how is bringing a dish to eat, buying/bringing ingredients, or instead bringing 20$ - different? Heck, some of the guests in my "supper club" id rather bring 20$:crazy:

Sure, we'd all love to have close friends in a "supper club" where we have 1 couple who are butchers, one who own a farm, and another who has a winery! 


I don't think he's saying he's going to put an ad in the local trade paper advertising, he's saying he already has a group of friends, who eat over anyway, but lets face it, hosting a dinner party is expensive (I just made the list for this Sundays dinner, and its about 100$, and thats just for NRatched and I haha. ) and we'd love to do it once a month, but can't swing it financially, so if everyone loves to do it, why not all chip in as a group. 

if the only thing that i had to input into a dinner party was my house, and cooking, and say 50-100$ and maybe some wine, I'd have a dinner party once a week!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chefhow,

Good luck with your idea, your food and your development as a chef. 

BDL


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

So,

We went to "the" supper club in NYC last night....the supposed "French Laundry of supper clubs".

It was all that's cracked up to be. There is a big difference between going to Per-Se or Jean-Georges....and then going to a supper club, and dining with people who all LOVE food. Great experience.

The food was really....really good. surprisingly really refined, for a chef with no formal training. (i'm willing to bet he is a member and reader of cheftalk too ) I'll go out on a limb and say it was much much better than many a 3 and 4 star restaurants I've been to. The venue was better than most restaurants I've been in as well, ~25 people, 4-5 tables (we sat at a table of 7...us...another couple, cousins, and a single guy)

a 3 person wait staff. if you didn't see the chef in the kitchen (which was in the center of the room) and notice you were sitting on banquet folding chairs, you would absolutely think you were at a 4...ok maybe 3 star restaurant. The tables, white table clothes, nice dinnerware, etc. the crowd...a mix of all types, with one thing in common, everyone loves food.

I have the menu, I will post later. This guy (and girl) do it right. One of the best dining experiences. I didn't get that feeling that it was an "illegal" restaurant, you just don't get that feeling thats what its trying to be, you get the feeling that it's just a private event for dare i say the word...."foodies".










P.S. The amuse was apple rhutabega soup with a Foie Gras "cookie"...that was awesome. I didn't care for the truffled egg too much, but others liked it. The dessert pairing was a little off, but at that point my BA level was high.... The dessert was great. (and when the chef comes around with a tub of extra ice cream and a scooper, it's always a plus...i don't see THAT happening at Le Bernadin...)


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

Well, RPM-
Despite my legalistic misgivings (hey, I went to law school, too. But had the good sense to quit halfway through after I realized what they were doing to me) it sounds like a lot of fun, assuming you have not already died of food poisioning. :roll:

Mike


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

I would check out the legal implications first, is it illegal, or not? I really dont know. What I do know is this, it sounds like a lot of fun, it sounds like something I would like to do. If it is above board then why not go for it? Let us know how it works out chefhow and good luck.


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## top chef (Nov 7, 2008)

Just a note of encouragement...you're not crazy! Even in my extremely rural area of the Midwest, supper clubs are thriving!
CookingandBlogging.Com


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Well to update some of you who were interested in what was happening, I have confirmed my first dinner to be on Dec 13. for 8 ppl. It will be 4 courses and it is going to be me and the misses doing the work. I do have a question though, would you find it tacky if you had mixed and matched dinner ware on the table? I want this to be fun and casual, not stuffy at all and thought this would kind of keep it fun. I have squares, rounds, rectangles, just not 8 of any one plate but different things I have collected over time and never got rid of. Thanks in advance and if anyone wants to see the menu I would be glad to send it out to you.


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

Lets see the menu.

I wouldn't mind different plates.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

here you go....

Lagniappe - Red Lentil puree with roasted Mushrooms and Jacobs Creek Vineyards Vinaigrette

*Vegetable - Soft Polenta with Vegetable "Cassoullet"*

Fish - Seared Diver Scallop with Smoked Bacon White Bean Puree and Lobster Jus

Meat - Zinfandel Braised Beef Short Rib with Creamed Yukon Gold Potatoes, Beet Relish and Natural Reduction with Buerre Blanc

Sweet - Triple Chocolate Fudge Brownie "Bread Pudding" with Kalua Crème Anglaise


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

It depends on the experience you are going for, and how much you are charging. If I'm paying what I would pay for an equal meal, at a restaurant (with matching plates) I'd kind of expect it to be at that level. All depends on what experience you are going for.

The club that I went to, had matching dinnerware, and was on par with any 4 star restaurant.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Menu is $45pp at my dinner table in my dining room. I am not looking to recreate a 4 star restaurant and I am certainly not looking to charge those prices. More just a casual experience where 4 couples are getting together for a night out with great food and company.


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

Menu looks good, are you doing 1 wine for the whole meal, or a different wine with each course?


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

The only wine that seems like it wouldn't go is the Gewurz with the first course.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

For this go around and the price its BYOB. I invited 20 ppl on a first come first served basis for the 1st go around and I got 20 yes ppl who tried to make reservations. I was thrilled but at the same time I had to tell 12 that they were first on the list for January. If I can get more $$ in Jan I will do a wine pairing with the meal but for now I dont want that responsibility. The couples have all seen the menu and can purchase wine to match if they want. I would be glad to open for them if needed.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Actually the only one I felt was off just a little was the last one. However, my palate for wine isn't all that great yet, and it was after what.....6 glasses of wine + 2 before dinner strong cocktails at one of the better cocktail bars in the world!

Let's just say they weren't 4 oz pourings and for some reason, everytime I looked up, my glass was full (I guess you can do that when its not a real restaurant!) I had a pretty rough train ride home at 1am.


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

Ok, I was wondering about the last one too, it said Late Harvest though, so I'd guess it was a sweeter, desert type wine, a sweet reisling or sauterenes probably would have worked better there though.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

chefhow how did this work out?


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Because of the holidays we pushed it back to this weekend and I have 8 for Saturday night. 6 paying customers and 2 on the house(they are my connection to putting ppl in the seats). The misses and I are VERY excited to start this off and because of the response we got we are booked for 1/31 and I have already booked a group of 8 for a 5 course meal for Valentines.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

cool...menu for valentines? 

Ttry to take pics...even if its just of the setup, or dishes before they go out.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I have promised everyone who is coming for Valentines day a menu by friday so I will send it out to you as well. Definitley will post pics.


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## mad martha (Jun 7, 2012)

I am a classically trained chef and am thinking of starting a supper club. I have re-zoned my old house, have gone thru all the expected health inspections, etc and am almost ready to go. 

I agree with complying with laws before taking on any service to the public, simply because of the type of society we live in.  There are types that look for a ***** in your armor, so you have to protect yourself.

I am sympathetic to RPMcMurphy, and am kindred in spirit.  But, as a business person, it is just wise to make sure all the i's are dotted, etc before taking on the public. 

A private carry-in dinner, where everyone chips in to cover costs  is the best idea for chefhow. I also know a guy who did what you want to do, chef.  Once everyone had a few glasses of wine it was almost impossible to get them out of his dining room!


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## mrmrschef (Oct 31, 2015)

I have read all the comments........I don't know where all the "legal" junk is coming from. You are cooking in your home "privately" this has nothing to do with the public domain or 'health departments'! Health Departments deal with the public aspect of a business doing business within a geographic area, not your "private" home or you "private" friends who may wish to compensate you for your services. There are all sorts of Private Dinner Parties and Groups all over the country.....and to say this is something "New" is completely ridiculous, I have seen this done for 40 years. Now of course if you are planning on using your house as a place of business then you most likely have to have the correct permits! Then you could be running into some Health Dept issues!! A place of business is subject to local taxes and occupational costs.....but remember, a private dining club between friends is nothing like that.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

So @mrmrschef .....

Which is it?

A perfectly legal dinner party/club with friends who just happen to be required to pay an entrance fee.....

or

A dinner party/club prepared in an unlicensed kitchen by unlicensed cooks (served and eaten in an unlicensed home business) ...

You can't have it both ways don't ya know.......

mimi

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif OBTW welcome to Chef Talk ......

m.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

Talk about zombies, this thread is over seven years old...


mrmrschef said:


> I have read all the comments........I don't know where all the "legal" junk is coming from. You are cooking in your home "privately" this has nothing to do with the public domain or 'health departments'! Health Departments deal with the public aspect of a business doing business within a geographic area, not your "private" home or you "private" friends who may wish to compensate you for your services. There are all sorts of Private Dinner Parties and Groups all over the country.....and to say this is something "New" is completely ridiculous, I have seen this done for 40 years. Now of course if you are planning on using your house as a place of business then you most likely have to have the correct permits! Then you could be running into some Health Dept issues!! A place of business is subject to local taxes and occupational costs.....but remember, a private dining club between friends is nothing like that.


It's really quite simple. If you invite your friends and family over for a Thanksgiving dinner it's one thing. But if you provide food to the general public and/or any money changes hands you are operating a food service establishment. Doesn't matter how you "acquire" your patrons and I say this because the internet social media these days generates a lot of "friends". But what it really amounts to is plain old advertising.

It's funny how many people don't have any respect for laws, rules and regulations. We have somebody who operates a taxi/livery service all over the world (Uber) and is rich because he says screw you to the requirements that you must comply with in order to operate that kind of business. Here we have people who have stepped over the line from private gatherings to operating a restaurant out of their home and don't see anything wrong with it.


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