# Need help with French Onion Soup?



## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

I need some help with French Onion Soup?

What is the best onions to use?

What is the best cheese(s) to use?

What is the best way to flavor the bread?

If the soup will be the main course what else can I serve that will go well?

Thanks in advance.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Onions.... that's a subjective answer to a broad question. I often use leeks, Spanish onions and garlic. While traditionalists flavor their beef stock with red wine, I opt to accent the sweetness of the onions with white wine rather than add a contrasting flavor.
Gruyerre is the classic cheese, while I have seen provolone or even Swiss used, as well.
For the bread, I use crusty French bread that has been left to stale a bit and then brush it with oil and rubbed with a garlic clove.
As for accompaniments... can you provide some parameters, so we could answer a little more specifically.
Hope this helps.


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## jeebus (Dec 1, 2005)

Personally i use Vidalia onions for my soup, they are very high in sugar and caramelize well. French onion soup is all in the cooking of the onions, this will take a LONG time over very low heat. Think 2 hours minimum.

As for cheese you can really use any cheese you enjoy. my favourite is with a non traditional 6 year old white cheddar.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I have to agree with Jim on this one and disagree with Jeebus somewhat. I don't think you need to cook the onions nearly that long. The cellular structure isn't so great that cooking past 20-30 minutes is really going to do much more softening. Not to mention that it's going to continue cooking during the addition of stock, and cooling down, reheating etc.
I have always used beef stock and for wine I use Madeira. I use yellow and or Spanish onions and some garlic. I also add a little Thyme, salt and white pepper.
For cheese I also prefer Gruyere and an old piece of stale french bread.

Crepes and or a salad also make a nice accompaniment with the soup.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Personally, I just use Spanish or yellow onions for my French Onion Soup. The key to really good French Onion soup, IMHO, is in properly caramelizing the onions. I agree with Chrose, I don't feel it is neccessary to cook the onions for 2+ hours, but it will take a good amount of time to develop the proper amount of caramelization. This is were most people fail. They either don't caramelize the onions enough, leading to a weak flavored soup (again IMO) or they try and hurry the process resulting burnt, bitter onions. I look for a nice rich brown color and usually deglaze the pan a couple of times with just a couple tablespoons of water to keep the bottom from burning. As for the wine, I have discovered that I like a 50-50 mix of sherry and red wine for my French Onion Soup. I first deglaze and reduce the sherry, then add the red wine and reduce that. My soup also contains beef broth, garlic, thyme, salt, and a hefty dose of black pepper. For the bread I like toasted French bread and topped with either Gruyere or Swiss, and lots of it. 

I also make a wonderful creamy onion soup that is basically the recipe above with added cream, thickened with a roux and finshed with Gorgonzola cheese stirred into it. Not traditional, but absolutely heavenly.


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## dickie (Jan 26, 2003)

Caramelizing the onions is a critical step. You want to cook them slowly on medium low heat - so they gently caramelize. The time is very dependent on the volume, but I would count on 45 minutes or so. Stir frequently so they cook evenly. If I want to make the best soup I use homemade beef stock. Roast the bones and spend the time... It makes a great soup.

Dickie


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## andrew563 (Oct 12, 2005)

I use a mix of sweet white and red onions and garlic.
First I carmelize the onions , thyme, bay leaf, in a rondeau in olive oil.
Then when they are almost brown stir in whole butter.
then I add minced garlic and deglaze with port.
Reduce the port and add a nice beef stock.
Simmer to infuse the flavors.
I top with a crostini with gruyere and brown under a broiler. 

I love this with a nice salad and some fresh fruit.


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## liv4fud (Jul 14, 2005)

any vegetarian broth spins on this?

love the soup but the only problem in making @ home is beef stock/broth..


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

IMHO

IMO

Translation please???????

Mark


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

IMO=in my opinion IMHO= in my humble opinion


i use yellow onions,deglaze with some brandy, add white/red wine, beef and roasted chicken stock if I gots it, guyere or Emmenthalier...toasted bagette....and of all things dillweed.

if it's my bowl I'm layering toast and cheese then pourring then soup on and topping with cheese and throwing it in the oven until it's got a crust. Ummmm now I know what I'm going to do with that 30 lbs of onions sitting in storage, got 4# of shallots too.....hmmmmm.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Shroomgirl forgive me for this, I am not trying to hijack the thread, I just have always wondered something. And now more than ever I feel the need to ask.... Does this picture mean anything to you?


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

nope should it?


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Apparently not. We now return you to the previous thread. Onion soup:lips:


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## andrew563 (Oct 12, 2005)

in response to the vegeterian spin, I have done it succesfully using veg stock. I actually found it to have a sweeter flavor.


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## liv4fud (Jul 14, 2005)

thanx for the encouragement.:bounce:

I was worried that I would loose flavor as I would not have the beefy flavor

was thinking if something like veggie stock boiled with some portabello (to get the beefy flavor) might do the trick?
pointers welcome...


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

that's exactly what I was thinking...add mushrooms to the stock.....do not add a sweet Sherry, liquor but maybe drier red wine.


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## andrew563 (Oct 12, 2005)

I use the gill scrapings and stems from portabellos in veg stock.You get the flavor in the stock and can use the mushroom itself for another use.


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## jeebus (Dec 1, 2005)

20 -30 minutes is not long enough to properly caramelize onions and simmering them while it will cook them wil give you zero flavour unless the onions are cooked properly. I assume most here are fans of Mr. Kellers work yes? In his Bouchon cook book (which is not where my recipe comes from I just happened to be flipping through it) he recomends 5 hours. Nothing personal but I'll take his advice over yours.


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## ma facon (Dec 16, 2004)

The longer the better when carmelizing the onion, Just don't burn them. And a fine stock is just as important. :chef:


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Nothing personal at all do what you like. Perhaps I understated the cooking time in my opinion by 15-20 minutes. Mine came from the hundreds of gallons I cooked over the years as it was a standard item on the menu where I worked for 3 years, and it always came out just fine for me (darn good in fact!). Most places don't have the luxery of taking up burner space and gas to cook onions for 5 hours which in my humble opinion is overly anal. His "advice" is his own personal method and doesn't make it any more correct than what I said or Pete, or Dickie, or Shroom or Mark said. Nothing personal here either.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

You know "classic" Soupe A L'Oignon Gratinee does not even brown there onions, and a blond roux is made, and no wine is used.I swear this is true.

The first restaurant I worked in in the late 70's made a very good onion soup, very similar to Chroses and Pete's. I do like to use a healthy bouquet garni during simmering.A # of dishes that I teach my students say from Alsace/Lorraine are based on onions, but none are carmelized, although all are cooked to bring out there inherent sweetness and become translucent. I find if you cook your onions to long, they break down and loose there texture.IMHO.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Even better,use some dried cepes or porcini's,reconstitute them in some redwine and use them and the wine. The dry shrooms add a very deep, earthy,meaty(umami)flavor.


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## plongeur (Aug 1, 2005)

La Cuisine de Référence: Techniques et préparations de base, fiches techniques de fabrication by Michel Maincent-Morel (Editions BPI) is the standard text book for all French culinary students (like me); it cites 'about' 30 minutes for slowly cooking your onions before adding your stock.
Escoffier says 'until golden brown'.
Shame Harold McGee isn't here any more.


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

If you're going to make a vegetarian version, I would try using a mushroom stock very lightly thickened with a roux, since the absence of the meat proteins will sacrifice a little body to the soup itself.

Anyway.

I use spanish and vidalia onions, julienned not too thinly. I then prep my rondeaux by rendering some bacon fat and scraps from pork tenderloin with bay, thyme, and a very short sprig of rosemary. After a cook deal of the fat has been cooked out (I've also done duck for this) I remove the meat and herbs and add a good deal of butter. Then I put in my onions in batches to really get a nice color on them while retaining some bite. (If they're too soft they'll break down too much in the broth.) When the last batch is done I deglaze with a mixture of sherry and burgundy and add a combination of reduced chicken stock and veal stock. Add the other cooked onions back in. I throw in a bouquet garni (usually just bay, time, and black peppercorns) and let this simmer and reduce for a bit. Then I salt it and let it be.

For serving I like the traditional gruyere with a moderately thick cut of crusty baguette and broil it until it almost burns on top. (The peak of bubble should be just turning black.) Goes well with a sandwich of sourdough boule, thinly shaved leftover prime rib, raw horseradish and grilled tomatoes.


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

Another note: In my opinion french onion soup is a simple comfort food that shouldn't be fretted over too much. I like Thomas Keller and all, but come on. It's like pontificating over the aromatic qualities of a bowl of cereal.

Just eat it in your underwear while watching daytime television like the rest of us jerks.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

LogghiB said:


> If you're going to make a vegetarian version, I would try using a mushroom stock very lightly thickened with a roux, since the absence of the meat proteins will sacrifice a little body to the soup itself.
> 
> Can't make a vegetarian anything if you use butter (I.E Roux)


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Really?

Why have these forums?
Comfort foods............

Coq au vin
Cassoulette
Choucroute

If your culinary expertise tells you that quality technique and discussion merits a bowl of cereal to quantify thing's so be it. But I disagree


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

My point is that french onion soup shouldn't be treated like four star cuisine because it is not. And yeah, coq au vin should be scarfed cold from the refridgerator at 4am, drunk.

I clearly (refer to first post, right above the second post) am not above discussing technique for a good french onion soup, but just because you might be able to use a fusion reactor and a time machine to create THE PERFECTLY CARAMELIZED ONION doesn't mean you should lose sleep over a french onion soup that wasn't made from onions harvested off of the moon. It's french onion soup. It's casual. It's frosty mug of root beer and an enchilada. It's chicken salad sandwiches and PBR on the beach. And there'a a difference between saying that a superior chicken sandwich can be made from properly hung, free-range organic chicken all trussed and roasted with fresh herbs, roasted garlic, etc. and saying that a chicken salad sandwich made from hormone jacked chicken breast is some kind of crime.

I, as a customer, would much rather have a tasty cup of french onion soup for a couple bucks while reading a paper than spend whatever it costs at Bouchon and have it be turned into some kind of grand epicurial event.


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## botanique (Mar 23, 2005)

Amen chrose


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

Oh, and - butter is vegetarian. It isn't vegan.


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## andrew563 (Oct 12, 2005)

Or you could use a slurry.


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## emhahn (Jun 13, 2002)

Here's my secret ingredient to French Onion Soup. I learned this from a French Chef who kept this a closely guarded secret.....

When making the French Onion soup, deglaze the onions in the pan using Applejack Brandy!

I swear this makes a huge difference in the flavor, and really gives it a wonderful taste!

Further, with the cheese, I've always used a combination of Gruyere', Swiss and Parmesan. Cheesy as it gets!

Eric
*http://www.restaurantedge.com*


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I made a batch yesterday....used olive oil and butter to cook the onions, did not caramelize but they were soft, salt/pepper/thyme then added good nutty sherry some syrah and then chicken stock....added dillweed at the end and alittle beef stock. we had french bread and emmenthaler....was good. Would have been better with beef stock but I didn't have much....so homemade chicken vs canned beef.....went with the chicken.

Had a salad with baby greens, blanched sugar snaps, bacon, soft poached eggs and tarragon shallot viniagrette.

Vanilla bean~ orange creme caramel for dessert.....good meal, a friend of mine just got a professional leave to teach in Holland feb-May of 2007.
Yippeee!!! This was her celebration dinner


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I can see where that would make a good addition to the soup. The apple giving off the sweetness and the brandy giving it some depth. Not a bad thought at all!


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## liv4fud (Jul 14, 2005)

one of the old episodes when wolfgang puck used to come on ftv, he used gouda cheese.


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## cheech (Feb 17, 2003)

When I make onion soup, I use shallots, garlic, vidalia onions, and red onions. I prefer a smoked buffalo mozzarella for the cheese, and if you want to use a flavored bread for the crouton, find something that will compliment the flavor of the soup. I prefer plain white bread myself.


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## robinchev (Jan 13, 2006)

Best onion soup I ever had was in this little roadside place out in the middle of nowhere.. Yah, I know it's a cliche... 
anywho, it had sourdough and provolone.


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## david chenelle (Nov 1, 2004)

First off, I think all of you have missed a crucial step. Secondly, I prefer to deglaze with a dry sherry rather then a classic Calvados (applejack is not so "new" now is it) for the soup. I use yellow onions, garlic, thyme, Bay leaf and cracked black pepper. Beef stock of course but I have made lighter versions with Chicken Stock. If I want to be true to the classic version then I would use a white beef stock but I really like the roasted beef stock. IMHO The flavor is so much richer and more enjoyable. Cheese is Swiss or Gruyere and the crouton is a simple crouton toasted with oil. The Time it takes to caramelize the onions. Folks, it all depends on how many onions your using!!! There is a huge time difference between 2 onions or 50# of onions. One will take no more then one hour from start to finish while the other will take a few hours.
Now another classic is white onion soup. This is done by gently cooking the onions in oil until limp but not colored over low heat. If desired a little flour can be added making a light roux that will lightly thicken the soup. Use calvados or white wine sweetened with apple juice. The stock is a white beef stock. The result is a pale but savory version of the above soup. 
The missing step??? I will just have to sit on that one and see if anybody can guess it. After all if you found out it wouldn't be a secret.I enjoyed this thread. Cooking discusions over the basics is great fun and you get to see how and what is the style that is reflected in everybodys versions here. I saw a common thread in just about everybody except for the vegetarian and smoked cheese version.
ciao
David


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

onion issues.....caramelize some and add others so that you have the flavor of thoroughly caramelized onions and then the texture/flavor of less cooked.


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## pastrytracy (Jan 5, 2006)

I work in a french restaurant where the FO Soup has become an epic tale. The owner (french guy) wants us to cook the onions for hours. If he sees even the darkest brown ( precipice of burned) piece of onion, it is back to the start!..The chef makes it most days, but I have had my share of making it too!...Well, all of the fuss makes a kick butt soup. We use veal stock, white wine, and Vidalias for the base. We also use Herbs de Provence. A mix of Gruyere and Asiago...olive oil toasted baguette crouton...


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## emhahn (Jun 13, 2002)

*You don't need any garlic in French Onion soup!*

*It's an onion soup, not a garlic soup! French Onion soup never had garlic originally, so why does it now?*

Deglaze the onions with Applejack Brandy, and you'll have a winner of soup! If you can't get Applejack Brandy, then just throw in some apple juice and some Christian Brothers right behind it.... let them onions cook in that...

*You still need beef stock...*

I'm listening to all these ideas floating around on this thread, and I'm beginning to wonder how many people are actually making this soup! Or know how to make this soup!

The *French chef *who taught me this one was "Napolean" in his ways! *Total mean guy.... *It was his way, or no way...... I just had problems getting the roux figured out when making it..... and that was the "real" trick to making this soup!

Eric
*http://www.restaurantedge.com*


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## david chenelle (Nov 1, 2004)

BECAUSE WE HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID (PUT YOUR SEATBELT ON)

IMHO(In My Humble Opinion)
DO YOU GET IT?????? NOBODY HAS CLAIMED "THE ONE TRUE WAY". WE HAVE ALL BEEN SHARING OUR OPINIONS!
Now it is true what you have said about garlic not being in onion soup regardless if you once had a Napoleonic Chef suffering from little d*ck disease. Anybody that has had any classical training can attest to their "Chef" suffering from the aforementioned condition. I like garlic because I like garlic. It is as simple as that. Live with it. You use a cheap rendition of calvados. I can point that out and stamp my feet too. I can also say that you use a cheap wine with apple juice. Actually that is a good short cut for us old pro's but I digress. We all have a little twist on whatever we do. This is not a website of strict Escoffier guidelines of which I am three kitchen generations removed from that grand old chef. In other words I apprenticed under a Chef who apprenticed under his Chef that apprenticed under the big guy. I have worked for several Chefs that have been only two to four kitchen generations seperate from Escoffier. Guess what??? Escoffier himself wasn't 100% complete in his book. There are several techniques that are passed verbally through the Chefs and subsequently apprentices that worked and studied under them.
Escoffier himself was strict but (drum roll) very open minded to new ways of preparing food. He himself consolidated and streamlined many techniques that were once considered iron clad standards of practice.
What is a kitchen generation?? Generally a Chef practices his art for about 40 to 60 years. So it is very easy to see that in some kitchens you may have 4-5 chefs that have a combined experience of over 150-200 years. However my point is that the Chef I was under had been cooking for 45 years at the time. I was in food service since the age of 15 in '75 but I started my official apprenticeship in '82. My Chef apprenticed in 1940. His Chef apprenticed at the Carlton under Escoffier in 1905-10? So you can see that myself being only 45 years old can be removed by only two Chefs from the big guy himself and he retired in 1928. What a business!
To conclude this post I enjoy seeing, reading, discussing and bantering about the techniques of cooking. I don't propose that I have the "one true way", only the techniques that I am willing to share that works for me. Over time I have put in some twists that I like. IE. using a dry sherry to deglaze. Classicly your supposed to finish the soup with a splash of sherry and deglaze with Calvados. What is Calvados?? It is apple brandy from France. Much smoother then apple jack. But I am sure you already knew that, right emhahn?

Need to go to the Chef of the year ball in San Diego. 
So peace out.
David (chef legere)
PS If you want to check me out go to 
http://www.frappr.com/chefsunited/map
I am going to put more pictures up in a couple of days.


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