# Time to get a new knife - suggestions?



## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

When I bought my first set of knives, I didn't really know what I was doing. So about 5-6 years ago I just bought a cheap block of knives from a Sams Club. I've taken good care of them, but I think it is time to upgrade. The knives don't feel great in my hands and the weight seems a little off. They have done me well, but I think it is time to move on. I am looking to get a new chef's knife and will eventually also pick up a pairing knife. Those two are the knives I use most often.

I haven't set out much of a budget because I don't know what to expect, but I know I want to do this right and from what I have read, it seems like I will need some sharpening tools which aren't cheap, unfortunately. Aside from that, I don't really know anything about sharpening knives or what tools to purchase to sharpen them.

These knives will be used daily in a home environment. They will also be cared for meticulously. I've gone to the some stores and held some knives. I seem to prefer Japanese styled, lighter knives and I have no problems buying a knife online.

From looking at the knife holding guides, I do hold a knife properly.

On an 8" vs 10", it seems that many people on the forum prefer a 10". I only have experience with an 8" knife, but am open to using a 10" if they are generally superior. Although a 10" is probably larger than most of my cutting boards.

I really don't have a big preference here. I know I would like to keep it under $200 for the knife and sharpener, if possible, but I don't know how realistic that is. If it isn't I can save up.

I am a pretty blank slate, but function is far more important than form for me. So are there any recommendations?

Lastly, does anyone have good recommendations on where/how to learn to properly sharpen a knife? I know you can ruin a knife through improper care (or lack of) and want to be ready before harming my new purchase.

If anymore information is needed to help with suggestions, please let me know.

Thanks!

Edit: I forgot to mention, a while back I was gifted a 5" Caphalon Katana series santuko which seems to be a pretty nice knife compared to the knives I have, but is far too small for my normal use.


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi vas38

I can't really help you much with the choice of knives as I don't know enough about them.

You should be able to find some within your budget though.

As for sharpening, check out the following:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sharpening-tutorials.htm

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/index.htm

Good luck!


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## theunknowncook (Dec 17, 2009)

vas38:

I hope that you find these links useful:

*Japan Woodworker*

*Japanese Chefs Knife*

*Japanese Knife Direct*

*Knife Merchant*

*Cookware*

*Dexter-Russell*

*Mundial* *Sushimen's* *Line* *[mirror* *website]*

*LamsonSharp*

*Fallkniven*

*F. Dick*

*Messermeister*

*Chroma*

*MAC*

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The first things to nail down are how much you're willing to spend on sharpening, how much time and how much trouble you're willing to devote to learning to sharpen.  Sharpening is pretty much everything.  Also important -- partly in terms of sharpening kit -- is whether you plan on using your old knives to supplement your new chef's. 

Without getting into which of these will ultimately be better for you, my feeling is that the best entry level Japanese knives (under $100) are the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM and MAC Superior.  You can get a lot more knife for an extra $50, though.  If you're trying to buy something which will keep you happy for years and years, it's well worth the extra money.

BDL


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks for the links. I will look through them as soon as I can.



boar_d_laze said:


> The first things to nail down are how much you're willing to spend on sharpening, how much time and how much trouble you're willing to devote to learning to sharpen. Sharpening is pretty much everything. Also important -- partly in terms of sharpening kit -- is whether you plan on using your old knives to supplement your new chef's.
> 
> Without getting into which of these will ultimately be better for you, my feeling is that the best entry level Japanese knives (under $100) are the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM and MAC Superior. You can get a lot more knife for an extra $50, though. If you're trying to buy something which will keep you happy for years and years, it's well worth the extra money.
> 
> BDL


I am willing to put in the time to learn. I really doubt there is anyone worth while near me who can sharpen (live in a small town) and I wouldn't want to ship off my knives every time I need it cared for. I have learned to do things right, so I would rather take an extra few months and save to get a knife that will last me a long rather than buy something simple to get something new. So I would gladly spend the extra $50 for a lot more knife.

I doubt my old knives are worth any money for resale, if that is what you mean by supplement. If you are suggesting I keep my old knives and use them for tasks that are harder on knives, I was planning on doing that.


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## bellybones (Oct 4, 2010)

My carbon steel knives come from Wildfire Cutlery.

Easy experience and my knives are just what I wanted. He made me a whole set

copied form my current knives, and customized them to my needs.

His site is well worth reading. I cruised around and then called him

with my unanswered questions. I have no reservations about

having bought from him and highly recommend.

B


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_Sharpening Kit:_ Bester 500, Beston 1.2K, Arashiyama (6K). Flatten on drywall screen. You'll have to learn to use them -- which will take awhile. Cost, around $150.

If that sounds outrageous, we can talk other options. The best alternatives to bench stones are the Edge Pro Apex and the Wicked Edge systems, both high end tool and jig rod-guides. An appropriate Edge Pro kit is around $200, and the Wicked Edge is a bit more.

You can get adequate edges with a Chef's Choice electric (but not the manuals) -- the "Asian" 316S and 317 models run around $80 -- but edge quality is a far cry from benchstones or an Edge Pro.

I don't recommend Sharpmaker, "Crock Sticks," or any of the pull-throughs including the Mino Sharp (probably the best of the bunch). Some are better than others but none of them combine enough speed with enough polish to make them both convenient and fine enough to do justice to an expensive blade. Climb down the ladder of blade quality a little, and that changes.

_Length:_ 24cm (9-1/2") is a good compromise between productivity and intuitive comfort.

_Cutting Board:_ If you need to get larger cutting boards you should. Most (but not all) non-wood boards dull your knives quickly or may even promote chipping. "End grain" hardwood is usually your best bet, and nothing too exotic. Maple and cherry are probably the best choices. Bear in mind that at some level "better" and "best" can get pretty silly.

_Particular knife:_ There are a lot of excellent "pro" knives in the next couple of price groups above the entry-levels -- say, between $120 and $200. But, there's also a lot more I'd like to know before making recommendations. Exactly how flexible is your budget for a chef's knife and stones? Would you consider carbon (as opposed to stainless)? How about a semi-stainless tool steel (feel free to ask if you don't know what that is)? Do you like very large or very small handles? Do you pinch grip? Claw? Cut and retreat? What's your chopping style (German, French, push cut, don't know)? Anything else you can tell me would help, too. "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer.

In better than entry level stainless, I most often recommend Hiromoto G3, Kagayaki VG, MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, and Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff... depending. In addition there are a lot of other great knives and several are bound to suit you.

Prices: Eeek! Getting good performance from a good knife requires a good sharpening kit and board. The sticker shock is something fierce, I know. If you can't afford everything all at once, the best place to start is the board.

BDL


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

_Sharpening Kit: _From what I can tell a sharpening kit will last me a life time, which means that isn't a bad investment, but I will need to save. Not a problem. I'm more concerned with learning to properly use it.

Out of curiosity what are other options and what are their downsides compared to a set of bench stones or tool and jig rod-guides?

I do honing edge in my knife block (I know it doesn't sharpen anything), whatever came with the knives. It says "chrom-vandium" on it.

_Length: _That sounds good to me.

_Cutting Board: _I have two primary surfaces for my cutting needs. I use regular poly cutting boards for any meats, or sticky/messy ingredients - these vary in size, but I always tend towards larger not smaller. I also have a very inexpensive, but well cared for, maple end-grain butcher block that is about 24"x24". I use it for everything else.

_Particular knife: _I can probably hit $200-300 for both the knife and the sharpening kit comfortably, slightly more if it is really worth it. It might take some time, but that isn't a problem. I'm in no real rush.

I have no love for a specific type of metal over another. I try to take very good care of my knives and wash them as soon as I am done with them. Obviously ease of care is nice, but not a deal breaker. I would just do my research before buying to ensure I can properly care for the knife before purchase.

As far as handles go, the knives I currently have (aside from the Caphalon) and most of the knives I have used have handles similar to the Wuesthof or Henckel classic. That said I seem to prefer something that is a little more sleek. I'm about 5'9" and don't have huge hands.

I do use both a pinch grip and the claw. Occasionally, I break for with the claw (I am trying to stop this), but almost never with the pinch grip. I am fairly certain I use a french cut, but it isn't very clean. Lately, I have been working on my technique to better my skills (if you have any reading/video suggestions I would love them).

Thank you very much for the help. Please let me know if there are any other questions I can answer. I will look at the knives you recommended this weekend.


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

I just got a chance to look at all the recommendations in this thread.

Looking through at pictures of the knives, which makes it pretty hard to judge, the Hiromoto G3, Masamoto VG and the Kagayaki VG look the most comfortable to me and the shape of the blade looks good. Like I said, it is hard to tell, but I don't know of any store where I could actually try the knives out.

Are there any other knives I should look into? Also, are the poly boards okay for my uses?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

*Honing Rod: *

If you're going to use a honing rod on a well sharpened, good knife, you want to use something in the fine to polished range. Most hones which are included with a block set are far too aggressive. There are some excellent, reasonably priced ceramic hones; and I especially like the Idahone 12" fine ceramic.

*Bench Stone and Rod-Guide Alternatives: *

It's too big a subject for me to cover in detail, but I'll touch on a few options.

What you want is a system which is fast enough to do repairs and re-profiling, and fine enough to lay in an appropriate polish for your knives. Very few systems have that sort of range. Most fast systems will damage your knives -- and that includes just about every "carbide" sharpener in existence. But most slow systems are too slow to get a dull knife sharp.

The next best alternatives to stones and the best rod guides (Edge Pro and Wicked Edge) are Chef Choice electric sharpeners. They won't give you the world's greatest edge but they're convenient enough to get used as needed. Actually, "next best" isn't accurate. For some people, they're the only system which will get used consistently, give a decent edge, and won't damage a good knife if used properly (RFTM) -- and "only" is synonymous with "best," at least as a practical matter.

I used to drag a couple lof CC electrics along when I taught cooking/skills classes in order to make sure everyone had a sharp knife; but also demonstrated bench stones to show they were faster and better.

There are a couple of animated steel/sharpeners which are sort of okay. One is made by Chef's Choice, and the other is called the "Warthog" but I don't remember who makes it. The Warthog is actually fun to use and watch. The problem with boths of these is their limited choice of appropriate angles.

The Spyderco Sharpmaker, "Crock-Sticks," and other forms of "V" sticks tend to be too slow at their coarsest and not fine enough at their finest. Angle holding can be very problematic with longer knives. They're great for maintaining pocket knives, but not so good for real sharpening.

A few of the manual pull throughs are okay, as long as you don't want a really fine edge, and aren't dealing with a seriously dull knife. The Minosharp and MAC Rollsharp are probably the best of the bunch. I don't think much of the Chef's Choice manuals, Henckels, Wusthof, etc. But if that's all you have, that's all you have.

With one exception (the one sold by Blackie Collins), all of the V slot sharpeners I can think of offhand will eat your knives.

*Cutting Board:*

I suggest using your wood board for everything -- cleaning and sanitizing as needed. Plastic boards are very tough on your knives. While it's true that they can go in the dishwasher, good workhabits and a spary bottle with diluted bleach or a commercial board sanitizer are just as salubrious. All of the current plastics are so hard on knives.

*Grip and handles:*

Except at the extremes your grip will determine what size handles are appropriate for you -- hand size isn't usually much of an issue. Even though you already pinch grip you might want to read _Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch_ -- it will help make sense of handle sizes as they relate to grip and knife length too.

_*Knives:*_

The Hiromoto and Kagayaki VG-10 both have narrow handles. The Tojiro DP (not on your list) has a very wide handle which some people find uncomfortable. MACs have handles which nearly everyone loves. Masamotos and Misonos are very nearly as good.

The two knives I most often recommend for people more or less looking for the same things you are and with the same set of concerns are the MAC Pro and the Masamoto VG. The Kagayaki VG is more bang for the buck and uses a prestige alloy; but I don't like its handle as much, nor the feel of its profile on the board, and there can be some issues with deburring.

The Masamoto has a profile as good as -- and very much like -- a Sabatier. In short, as good as it gets. There are some quality control issues, mostly centered around the handle, but these can be taken care of by the seller at time of purchase. You just have to make sure to tell them you want good F&F and a well-fitted handle before you give them your credit card number, and they'll select a good one for you.

MACs are stiffer than any comparably thin gyuto and consequently feel more sturdier and more comfortable. The MAC Pro handle is the best I've ever used. F&F is typically very good -- and if it's not their warranty and U.S. support is almost in Henckels' class. It's the knife I recommend most often.

You might also want to take a serious look at the Kikuichi TKC (at Chef's Knives To Go). Like the Kagayaki CarboNext (what a horrible name!), I've never personally used one. But people I trust speak of them very highly and they're compared to more expensive knives I know to be very good. If you're willing to take a flyer on something which hasn't been around very long the Kagayaki CarboNext is supposed to be very good. The rumor is that it's the same knife as the Kikuichi sold under a different knife -- not at all impossible in Japan. It's so new that I'm not sure if I trust the raves, but it certainly has a good pedigree. If I were going Kagayaki (JCK's house "brand," made by various OEM makers), it would be the one I'd choose.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> *Cutting Board:*
> 
> I suggest using your wood board for everything -- cleaning and sanitizing as needed. Plastic boards are very tough on your knives. While it's true that they can go in the dishwasher, good workhabits and a spary bottle with diluted bleach or a commercial board sanitizer are just as salubrious. All of the current plastics are so hard on knives.


BDL.

Great info

I have stayed away from hard surface boards forever, but never knew the plastics were an issue as well.

Are the bamboo boards any good?

Where would one find a good end grain wood board at a reasonable price, and what should we look for?

I am sure I am not the only one considering a new board or two for the new knives, and hope the info is helpful to others as well.


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

Thank you very much for the in depth reply. It looks like I need to read up and see if I prefer stones or rod guides to decide on for my sharpening needs. Stones do seem cheaper, at the cost of a steeper learning curve which is probably fine. I can read and learn.

As far as the knives go, I think the Mac Pro Chef's knife, but it sounds like you prefer the Masamoto aside from the possible grip issues. Too bad I can't try both out, at least hold them, before ordering. I will probably go with the Mac Pro to be safe and avoid QC issues. Although, it is unlikely I will upgrade knives in a very long time after this purchase (instead I will probably be looking to get a new paring knife), so I really want to get a knife that will last me especially as I become more adept at sharpening. Would this affect knife choice between the Mac Pro and Masamoto?

Also, since finding this site, I have been using much butcher's block much more as a working area than a counter top. It is much more comfortable.

Lenny, bamboo is much harder than most other woods used for cutting boards, I expect it would be very rough on a knife.

Thanks again.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If I were buying a mass-produced, stainless, Japanese made, western handled chef's knife in that price range -- which I'm not -- I'd choose the Masamoto for myself. However, I think the MAC is better for most people and have recommended it more often than any other blade, probably been responsible for something like thirty sales, have given four as gifts, but never given a Masamoto VG.

So, yeah. I think the MAC is a _great_ choice.

I have several boards, including one made from bamboo. It's kind of hard, and knives do dull kind of quickly compared to some other choices. FWIW, it's not the bamboo that's so hard, it's the glue -- or so I'm told. Along the Great Board Continuum, bamboo is far better than any plastic, better than composition, roughly equal to Sani-Tuff, not as good as normal maple edge grain, and certainly not as good as a good edge grain board -- all things considered.

Home Depot was selling some pretty good end grain boards at an attractive price. I think they still are. They're not as good as Board Smith, but what is?

BDL


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

How does the Bester 1200 compare to the Bester 2000? I ask because Chef's Knives to Go has what seems to be a great deal on the stones you recommend but substituting the 2000 for the 1.2k. Also, for my clarification, a hone would be used instead of the drywall screen you recommended for flattening, is that correct?

Alternatively, I am thinking of starting small. If I were to get one of the three stones recommended and add up slowly, would getting this be reasonable or not?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The hone BDL is referring to is a ceramic honing rod- it's for maintaining your knife not flattening your stones.  I'll let him describe his preferred flattening method; I prefer a DMT Dia-Sharp for flattening, although I have some other methods, too.  The Idahone is a terrific tool, the nicest ceramic I've used.  I have two of them, an 8 incher that I keep in my work roll and a 12" that I keep at home.  I also have a Hand American borosilicate glass honing rod that I keep in my work case for harder Japanese blades...it's very nice but really a luxury item.

I haven't used the 500 grit Beston yet.  I should have mine in a week, maybe a little longer due to shipping being a little slower during the Christmas season.  Hopefully someone that's used the kit you're talking about can chime in, but philosophically I'm a little dubious of a stone set that doesn't include a 1k.  Perhaps some will choose an 800 or 1,200 instead but I think a good stone in that range is mandatory.  Setting aside talk of specific stones, if I had to get by with just one stone I'd want a 1k.  Allow me two stones and I'd add a 4k/5k.  If I could add one more I'd be torn between an 8k and a good arato, perhaps a 320, 400 or 500.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

We were talking about flattening? I flatten on dry-wall screen mounted in a sheet pan, cleaning the screen with the sink's pressure hose when it loads up. The pan contains the mess. I either need reading lessons or new glasses.

The Idahone rods are fantastic, if I were buying one hone that would be it; and if I were buying two, it would be one of them. I do use a two hone set, including a HandAmerican Borosilicate and an old, worn-down Henckels fine. The HA rod is fantastic, but is very expensive and you don't really need it.

Bester makes four medium-coarse stones, 800, 1K, 1.2K and 2K. The only real difference between them is speed. So... the 1.2K is faster than the 2K, but otherwise alla time same same. Faster is important. You want to find a blance which allows you to use the fewest number of strokes on the fewest number of surfaces to do a nearly perfect job for each task and/or level in the sharpening progression.

If you decide that you'd really rather have a 1.2K than a 2K don't look at the choices in the CKTG set as set in stone. Mark at CKTG is a flexible guy and might be willing to sub the 1.2K into the set in place of the 2K -- which, in my opinion, would make it a better set. While I've never talked to him about stone sets specifically, Mark is a great listener and avid reader of the knife boards and I'm guessing that this set is favored by some influential people on KF. I'd bet dubloons agains donuts that the consensus at FF would be in favor of the 1.2K.

What I don't like about the way the CKTG set is put together is that the 2K is not fast enough for the first stone in a normal sharpening progression (where there isn't going to be any profiling), but the 500 is too fast (coarse stones have consequences). I'm not saying you can't make it work, just that it wouldn't be my first choice. Phaedrus obviously agrees.

Another piece of the puzzle is to recognize that stones have individual character. Stones of the same nominal grit levels can be very different from one another in terms of speed, brightness of polish, how well they remove scratch, how "slippery" they make the edge, and so on. Not to delve too deeply into nuance and make this any more confusing than it already is, but when we're analyzing the Bester 2K, we're not talking "Oh no no no!" like we were about the GS 2K. The Bester 2K would probably work better in that position than almost any other 2K, partly because it's very fast for a 2K and partly because the Bester's edge quality is more sharp than shine, while the GS's is _vice versa_.

On top of that, the Arashiyama is very fast for a 6K (in addition to being a very fine polisher for that grit level), and will do better following a 1.2K stone than anything I know of which polishes nearly as well. IMO, the Arashiyama is the best stone on the market at or near its grit. Ditto for the Bester 1.2K.

I think stone choice in the medium-ish range -- from 800 to around 6K -- is more dependent on how you understand the sharpening processes than in the very coarse and very fine ranges, and that's most true for the first stone in the normal sharpening progression (draw a burr, chase a burr, polish). My priorities with the first stone are to pull the wire very quickly without creating too much scratch, avoid creating high and low spots, and have a stone fast enough to flatten minor imperfections. I'm not sure if Phaedrus and I are on the identical wave-length, but doubt we're far apart. If this is interesting to you, or even if it's just confusing, you might want to read _"Philosophies" of Sharpening_.

You should feel free to talk to Mark (although I'd wait til after Christmas) about this -- he loves to help customers -- and also to mention that you've been talking to me.

BDL


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks for your thoughts and explanations. I've also been exchanging emails with Mark from Chef's Knives to go. He is recommending that I start with a ShaptonGlass 1k rather than the Bester 1200 because the Shapton comes out box flat and ready to use, plus it is a splash and go compared to the Bester which works better with a soak and needs to be flattened. Since I have no experience I can't tell a difference, I assume the Shapton will need to be flattened every once and a while, right? Does anyone here have any thoughts on the two stones? 

I was also wondering, are sharpening guides for use on stones worth buying or should I learn to freehand the process from the start?

Also, he suggests that I purchase the stone, learn to sharpen with the knives I have then get the knife. I like that idea. Sure it is slower, but that way I learn how to really care for a knife before getting my upgrade. He then recommended I get the 6k sometime after the knife. I especially like the slow progression, so I can spread out my spending.

edit: I posted this about the same time you were BDL hence the slight overlap in some areas. So it sounds like the Bester is faster and gives a better cutting edge that may not look as nice compared to the SG? Sounds like the Bester wins. How often does a stone need to be flattened (is there somewhere I can read more about stone care in general ie, how to tell if it is flat and how much to remove etc? Along with any other necessary information).

It sounds like I should start with the bester 1.2k and the Arashiyama 6k, not just the 1.2k?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Shapton GS do need to be flattened -- almost as often as the Besters.

Flattening is no big deal just tedious -- It's especially easy (not to mention more tedious) if you flatten on screen rather than using a diamond plate. Since a lifetime supply of screen is about $10, it's not a bad thing to start out with it and no big deal if you change your mind and decide you want to invest $80 in a DMT XXC.

In addition to flattening them right OOTB, you'll also need to bevel the sides of the Besters (as with all normal waterstones). This means holding the well soaked stone at a 45* angle to the flattening surface (or the flattener at a 45* angle to the stone) and rubbing back and forth. Oh dear.

The Besters require about 30 minutes of soaking before they're usable, and more than an hour before they're at their juicy best. Is that an issue?

Understand that people buy stones without knowing how to prep them before using or even that they need prep at all. And when that lack of knowledge creates problems (right away!) they call Mark and kvetch. Mark, no doubt, is basing his recommendation on the stones which give the fewest problems to the masses. But you're not the masses. You have the wisdom of Chef Talk.

I'm not much of a fan of the GS series in any case. My verdict is more shine than sharp. They are fast, convenient, and the bevels they make truly gleam, but at the end of the day I think you get better edges on less expensive stones. Consequently, I disagree with Mark and think you'd be better off starting with the Bester than with the GS.

If you don't want to deal with the inconvenience of soaking and flattening, and if you've got any anxiety about other aspects of the bench stone learning curve, you might just buy an Edge Pro and be done with it. They do a really good job, and other than set up and take down are practically painless.

You're better off learning to sharpen before buying new knives, but only slightly so. Learning to sharpen takes time and commitment, yes. But it's not particularly difficult, it doesn't take much talent or brains (look at me), it just sort of happens if you do it enough. The big thing might be demonstrating to yourself that you can and will so that when you do buy an expensive knife you're beyond the point of allowing it to get dull, feeling overwhelmed, and losing interest.

Also, it helps to ease the blow to the budget to invest in one thing at a time. And if you want to prioritize, good sharpening trumps a good knife. People so often want to buy a $200 knife plus sharpening gear and a steel for $225 (and if I get that a lot, you can imagine how often Mark does). Unfortunately...

Consider though that unless you're using coarse stones, you really can't do much damage. So as long as you have the commitment to learn to sharpen, there isn't that much downside to learning on a good knife. Also, some knives do better than others with certain sharpening kits. For instance, you'll get a lot more from a Bester sharpening a MAC Pro than you will sharpening a Mercer. And fwiw, the Mercer will actually sharpen better on oilstones.

Since he features so prominently in this thread, I might as well mention that Mark really cares about matching you with stuff you're going to be able to use right off the bat and will like for a long time. He's not going to hose you in order to make an extra buck.

Lots to confuse, no?

BDL

PS. If you're going the bench stone route... Yes, I'd start with the Bester 1.2K and the Arashiyama. Learn to draw a burr on the Bester before even attempting the Arashiyama. That will probably take four or five tries. After you've become sufficiently adept at angle holding to consistently actually _sharpen_ with the Arashiyama, you can move on to using a coarse stone like the Beston 500 -- which you'll eventually need -- for profiling. You should be doing minor profiling to the extent of flattening the high spots, which are an inevitable part of ordinary sharpening, once for every four or five times you use the 1.2K. For home cooks, that means every year or so.


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

It seems like using stones to sharpen is one of those intimidating sounding things that ends up being simple once you try it. I think I'll invest in the stones (Bester 1.2k and Arashiyama 6k) and a Idahone 12" first and get used to using them then pick up the knife. Might not be as "fun" but it will give me the best results for my money.

Thank you so much for all the help! I will be sure to update the thread with my thoughts on everything I get as I use them. It will probably be a week or two before I order the items.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

boar_d_laze said:


> And if you want to prioritize, good sharpening trumps a good knife. People so often want to buy a $200 knife plus sharpening gear and a steel for $225 (and if I get that a lot, you can imagine how often Mark does).


This is probably the single best statement I've seen made on knives on this site! The knife simply exists to carry the edge around. Fancy handles, Damascus cladding, exotic steels, celebrity endorsements- none of that means anything in the end. The edge is what matters. You're better off with one knife and a good set of stones than 10 expensive knives that you can't keep sharp. The further "down the rabbit hole" I go the more my interest in stones is starting to outstrip my desire to get more knives.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

vas38 said:


> It seems like using stones to sharpen is one of those intimidating sounding things that ends up being simple once you try it. I think I'll invest in the stones (Bester 1.2k and Arashiyama 6k) and a Idahone 12" first and get used to using them then pick up the knife. Might not be as "fun" but it will give me the best results for my money.


Very true. In the beginning your efforts might not yield bevels that looks neat and shiny but from the start you should be able to get an edge that cuts well. Neatness will come in time and you'll get better as you go along. Just check out the videos Mark has posted at CKtG for tips and you should do fine.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Another piece of the puzzle is to recognize that stones have individual character. Stones of the same nominal grit levels can be very different from one another in terms of speed, brightness of polish, how well they remove scratch, how "slippery" they make the edge, and so on. Not to delve too deeply into nuance and make this any more confusing than it already is, but when we're analyzing the Bester 2K, we're not talking "Oh no no no!" like we were about the GS 2K. The Bester 2K would probably work better in that position than almost any other 2K, partly because it's very fast for a 2K and partly because the Bester's edge quality is more sharp than shine, while the GS's is _vice versa_.
> 
> On top of that, the Arashiyama is very fast for a 6K (in addition to being a very fine polisher for that grit level), and will do better following a 1.2K stone than anything I know of which polishes nearly as well. IMO, the Arashiyama is the best stone on the market at or near its grit. Ditto for the Bester 1.2K.


First thing from this that is sticking in my mind is "and make this any more confusing" as the more I seem to read about wetstones the more confusing it seems to become.

You bring up two issues that seem both important and difficult to understand. The difference between stones of the same or similar ratings, and just what is a proper progression between the stone ratings, and how this all relates to what one would really want (especially a noob etc)

What I am saying is would a 500 1.2K 6K be any better than a 700 2K 6K? How could different brand stones change this comparison even more?

It is sounding like 2K GS Shapton I have just received may well end up between progressions and end up delegated to my non J knives or non kitchen knives etc. This is not a problem as I really needed something for the finer finishing level for these anyway, but honestly I am beginning to wonder if even that makes sense.

A few related questions would be if it is needed to go below a certain level stone for touching up an edge? (is 1K, 2K or even 5K good for this) . If your skills improve to where your able to get acceptable results from an 8K or 10K stone what level would you want to start at when doing basic maintenance on this edge?

I am just a little concerned that I do not make any other decisions that I may end up questioning etc., and hope to find a good initial set up that would be helpful to anyone new to wetstones as the wealth of opinions found online lead us in various directions.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

> _If I may interject my opinions...you really are overthinking it a bit. I realize you want a "perfect" kit, but you can't possibly know what that is yet. You need a starter kit, something that will let you get your hands dirty, learn a bit of about sharpening and figure out what you like and don't like. Besides, there's an almost-infinite combination of stones you could buy, no one could possibly try them all. As a buddy of mine used to say, "let's do something, even if it's wrong." That's what you have to do- make an informed choice, yes, but make a choice!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif_
> 
> You bring up two issues that seem both important and difficult to understand. The difference between stones of the same or similar ratings, and just what is a proper progression between the stone ratings, and how this all relates to what one would really want (especially a noob etc)
> 
> ...


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> > _If I may interject my opinions...you really are overthinking it a bit. I realize you want a "perfect" kit, but you can't possibly know what that is yet. You need a starter kit, something that will let you get your hands dirty, learn a bit of about sharpening and figure out what you like and don't like. Besides, there's an almost-infinite combination of stones you could buy, no one could possibly try them all. As a buddy of mine used to say, "let's do something, even if it's wrong." That's what you have to do- make an informed choice, yes, but make a choice!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif_
> >
> > That last quote has gotten me into some interesting situations when I was younger (lots of good times too), but I get the point loud and clear!
> >
> > ...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

> > > Sounds like "jumping in" and putting an edge to a stone may produce a better idea on where to go next.
> > >
> > > _Yes, at some point you'll just have to try it out._
> > >
> > > ...


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> We were talking about flattening? I flatten on dry-wall screen mounted in a sheet pan, cleaning the screen with the sink's pressure hose when it loads up. The pan contains the mess. I either need reading lessons or new glasses.


I never realized before that drywall screen comes in different "grits" (100 180 220 etc). Do you use or recommend any one over another?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I use the coarsest screen for flattening -- which IIRC is 80, then lap with a 220.  After flattening my 3K, I lap it with screen then the 1.2K.  After flattening my 8K lap it with the 1.2K, then the 3K.  Lapping stone doesn't take much pressure or many strokes.  Of course everything must be properly wet -- in the case of my stone that means at least an hour of soaking for the Beston and Bester, and about 10 minutes for the Chosera and SS. 

When you lap stone on stone, do it under water and keep the stones moving to make sure they don't stick together.  This is a big problem.  It's a lot like a tongue sticking to a frozen fence not only in the sticking but in that you should take it on faith and not check it out for yourself.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> I use the coarsest screen for flattening -- which IIRC is 80, then lap with a 220. After flattening my 3K, I lap it with screen then the 1.2K. After flattening my 8K lap it with the 1.2K, then the 3K. Lapping stone doesn't take much pressure or many strokes. Of course everything must be properly wet -- in the case of my stone that means at least an hour of soaking for the Beston and Bester, and about 10 minutes for the Chosera and SS.
> 
> When you lap stone on stone, do it under water and keep the stones moving to make sure they don't stick together. This is a big problem. It's a lot like a tongue sticking to a frozen fence not only in the sticking but in that you should take it on faith and not check it out for yourself.
> 
> BDL


I have read where you flatten in a pan filled with water, and that sounds simple enough, but is the lapping with another stone an extra or option or is it needed?

Also how does the screen work on the edges? I am guessing your holding the stone at an angle to the screen and not the other way around.


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm glad to see others are making use of my thread as well, especially since I have been learning from the answers .

I am about ready to pull the trigger on my first stone and the Mac knife. The problem is CKTG is sold out of the 1.2k and doesn't know when the shipment will arrive. Is the 1k (which is in stock) comparable or should I hold out on a stone until I can get the 1.2k?

I guess I could look elsewhere, but Mark has been very helpful and his prices are great.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If your following and finer stone is 4K or coarser, the 1K is great; but I'd hold out for the 1.2K if the next stone is 6K or coarser.  It won't be more than a few weeks of waiting at most; and you'll have the stone for years. 

It's not going to make a great deal of difference either way.

FWIW:  1) I do not flatten in a pan filled with water.  I flatten -- or used to do so until a couple of weeks ago -- on dry wall screen set in a baking sheet. I rinsed the screen frequently with the sink's pressure hose to keep it from loading up.  But I was given a DMT XXC for Channukah.  2) It's important -- but not critical to lap your finer stones before using them.  And 3) Yes, I left the sheet and and screen flat on the counter parallel to the horizon while holding the stone at an angle relative to it.  Beveling the stone's edges is critical.  It keeps the edges from forming "rails" and keeps the edges and corners from crumbling.  Not only are those things bad for the stone, but they cause a variety of problems with the knife edge as well.

BDL


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

I just ordered the 9.5" Mac Pro and as soon as the 1.2k bester is available I will pick that up along with an Idahone 12". When I feel ready I will add the 6k to the mix.

From the discussion above it sounds like I should use 80 grit screen to flatten/bevel the 1.2k and a 220 screen to lap it?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You don't need to lap the 1.2K.  You can flatten it with 120# -- IIRC that's what I was using -- and just leave it at that.  80# might leave the surface a little coarse, or maybe not. 

Try not to make too big a deal about screen.  It's cheap enough that if your first choices don't work just as you hoped, you can buy your way into something better for less than the cost of a hot dog, soda and bag of chips from the stand outside the store.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

vas38 said:


> I'm glad to see others are making use of my thread as well, especially since I have been learning from the answers .
> 
> I am about ready to pull the trigger on my first stone and the Mac knife. The problem is CKTG is sold out of the 1.2k and doesn't know when the shipment will arrive. Is the 1k (which is in stock) comparable or should I hold out on a stone until I can get the 1.2k?
> 
> I guess I could look elsewhere, but Mark has been very helpful and his prices are great.


Vas,

Glad to help 

Hope you did not think I was hijacking your thread or anything, but it seems we have very similar questions, and like we both have found (and hopefully others who read this in the future) the answers are helpful to a wide audience.

I am also very curious what think and find after receiving and using the stones you decide on. I promise to do the same lol.

Maybe there will be some residual value to comparing results though I may end up going a slightly different route as I am now leaning towards keeping my 2K GS and ordering the 6K Arashiyama soon as funds allow.


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

I think there's a couple of us having similar questions.

I'm one of them 

Been following this thread and a lot of different ones.

I find it quite interesting to see how everyone is getting fairly different knives and stones, based on fairly similar information!!!

All my stuff has been ordered and should have arrived yesterday at my dad's(but I ain't at there for another month)/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

Think it is a good plan if we keep each other updated about our experiences with the knives, sharpening (mis)adventures etc etc


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

For the life of me I can't see people coming out of culinary school (in debt) then going out and spending hundreds on knives. If your knife cost 25 or 125. if you use it correctly you will get same results. I have carbon steel knives with wood handles  which I got when I graduated cooking high school and thats over a half century ago , that I still use. I take care of them, don't loan them out, and keep each one in a separate sheath. Think the most expensive one cost me about 12.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

chefedb said:


> For the life of me I can't see people coming out of culinary school (in debt) then going out and spending hundreds on knives. If your knife cost 25 or 125. if you use it correctly you will get same results. I have carbon steel knives with wood handles which I got when I graduated cooking high school and thats over a half century ago , that I still use. I take care of them, don't loan them out, and keep each one in a separate sheath. Think the most expensive one cost me about 12.


Times and prices have changed. Good luck finding high quality knives like the ones you bought so long ago for anywhere near those prices.

There's also a tremendous amount of "to each his own" in this. I can only infer that since you're still using the same set after fifty years of professional use that you must not sharpen them very often and further infer that we have very different standards as to acceptable levels of sharpness. No criticism intended, just saying we have different standards.

FWIW, I still have a couple or three thrity-five year old Sab carbons. But, I've also had a lot of other knives or those particular Sabs would have been used up and thrown away years ago.

A Toyota Camry and a Mercedes E-550 convertible will both get you to the grocery store, but they are not the same cars. Just so, there's no NEED to spend $250+ on a chef's to get a great knife. For instance, you can still get T-I or K-Sab carbon for not much more than $100. But it may be necessary to spend the big bucks to get the great knife you want. And if you haven't used a really good, well sharpened, Japanese made knife (specifically excluding Shun and Global from "really good") you have no idea of what you're missing.

At the end of the day, it's more about sharpness than anything else. Good knives sharpen more easily, get sharper, stay sharper longer, and with less maintenance than crummy knives. And good knives cost more.

BDL


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't think that any of the people posting in this thread are straight out of culinary school......

As for me, I never attended one.....

My status says "i just like food" LennyD "at home cook" and Vas (the originater of this thread) "home cook"

Just a bunch of people that have used knives for a considerable time that have now decided they want to own better knives and do their own sharpening.

I've just bought some knives for myself. They are not going to be used in the lodge kitchen. They are my tools and toys!

I enjoy knives and especially sharp knives. Maybe weird, but that's the way it is.

And yes, I can still cook with an arbitrary knife. It doesn't influence my cooking skills, it just makes prepping a lot easier (and much more fun).

I must have been bitten by a weird bug. I'm actually looking forward to finding blunt knives in the lodge kitchen so I can go and sharpen them....

Hope it's not contagious /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

I have a few hobbies outside of cooking (music, golf, snowboarding...) and it's been my experience that when people are really passionate about things they can kind of get out there in left field a bit. The comparison to music/high end audio, would probably be the best comparison. I've seen people spend fortunes, buy ridiculously price wiring, rearrange their house and hang "wall treatments" all over the place, etc... to try to reach the pinnacle of perfect sound. And I sense a little bit of that here when it comes to knives and sharpening. And the arguments are the same: "just because it's good enough for you doesn't mean it's good enough for me" - essentially. I think the best thing folks can do is read & learn about the topics, get out and experience it, and then decide for yourself where you are comfortable with things like value, time and diminishing returns. For me, I have zero interest in sharpening stones. I don't have time, don't want to learn, don't see the need. I do have a chef's choice with the "stropping disks" that I can pull out, plug in, and literally sharpen a knife in 10-15 seconds. And it gets SHARP as far as I'm concerned. This works for me, I like it. Convienant and timely.

Oh- and with all hobbies, the most passionate people pretty much always hate the big box store and the big "name" stuff. For example, I find the treatment of Global and Shun here almost identical to Bose and Polk for music folks. Eerily similar.



chefedb said:


> For the life of me I can't see people coming out of culinary school (in debt) then going out and spending hundreds on knives. If your knife cost 25 or 125. if you use it correctly you will get same results. I have carbon steel knives with wood handles which I got when I graduated cooking high school and thats over a half century ago , that I still use. I take care of them, don't loan them out, and keep each one in a separate sheath. Think the most expensive one cost me about 12.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Welcome to CT, racineboxer- but don't you dare diss my tubes, cables or acoustic treatments!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Of course Bose richly deserves the bile heaped upon them. Polk, not so much. Shun is a special case- they bring really superb tech into a "ginsu level" mindset. It's the same sort of cringe you get when your favorite "critic's darling" actress decides to take a $20 million paycheck to do a vampire flick...you're disappointed. And of course you've settled into a forum dedicated to professional chefs. We actually spend 60, 70, sometimes 100 hours a week with those knives in our hands. So we're not really like the housewife that watches cable cooking shows and decide that we need RayRay's "Santooko". Your tag says you're a "retired chef", so I'll regard you as if that's true (and you weren't just a team member at Chile's). You're entitled to your opinion, and regrettably we don't have a forum geared for the "As Seen On TV" or "Samurai Shark" crowd. Most of us here don't use our knives to unzip a bag of Sysco mashed potatoes or rip the lid off of a Stouffer's lasagne. And the sharpener on the back of your can opener doesn't cut it here. Granted, a good chef can create good food and yet be ignorant of knives...but I've never seen a great chef that didn't understand the value of a quality blade.

This is probably sounding a little edgier than I mean it to, and for that I apologize. But there are a few things I can easily tell you didn't do in you career just by your "Wal-Mart" idea of what sharp really is.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Phaedrus...  I'm kind of... put off by your last sentence.  But I'm going to get over it and not take it too personal.

First, I changed my tag for you.  I have 10 years cooking experience in a family restaurant and a hotel/restaurant.  Nothing too fancy, preparing meals from start to finish breakfast, lunch and dinner, but certainly much more than a "team member" at chile's.  I selected the tag I did, "retired chef", moreso based on the word "retired" rather than "chef".  Upon further consideration I'll just change it to "at home cook".  That said, I'm pretty passionate about cooking.

In general, I think your last comment about "wal-mart" sharp essentially proves my point in the comparison to audiophiles and their speakers.  At least to me it does .

You think a chef's choice is comparable to some crappy Paula Dean "santooku" from wal-mart just like (this is a true story) some nutjob that I drove 2 hours to go to his house and listen to his speakers thinks a $500 pair of PSB speakers will give him a headache after 30 minutes.

But to play along, I'll ask, do you have much familiarity with chef's choice sharpeners?  I bought the XV model that sharpens to 15* and has the flexible polishing/stropping disk as the final stage.  I bought this based on BDL's recommendation from other threads.  While I'm sure it's not super sharp like right off your personal stone, I'm thinking it's pretty darn good for everyday use.  I believe that the stropping/polishing stage is roughly comparable to 3,000 JSI?  That's not too terrible is it?  Maybe not ideal for sushi but could get the average home cook around their kitchen well enough?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

One of the restaurants I worked at once had a Chef's Choice on the line for the house knives. To be charitable it did make a completely dull knife sharper. But it really scratches the bevel up, not that that makes a big difference. I'm pretty dubious that if finishes to 3k grit, or at least that it finishes nicely at 3k. Still, BDL is right- for someone who would otherwise not sharpen at all it's a decent tool. Of course, I'm probably one of those "nutjobs" that gets a headache from the $500 PSBs. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Even at the computer I'm typing this from I've got Monitor Audio Gold Ref 10's connected (usb running to a Stereolink USB-DAC, Speltz Anti-Cable connecting that to an NAD C-320BEE integrated, feeding the speakers via DIY shotgun biwire cables). I guess the point is I'm pretty rabid in regard to both hobbies.

At any rate, I apologize if I came off as an a$$. Well, I am an a$$ most of the time but I try to keep it under wraps. After a few glasses of wine I took your post the wrong way. I'll play nice now./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I designed and manufactured high end audio cable (among other things) in the mid-eighties through mid-nineties. My company was called _Pure Logic. _Perhaps you've heard of it.

BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Wow, BDL- you've really lived a lot of different lives!


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## alpncook (Jan 7, 2011)

Great discussion. Phaedrus, I drive an old Mercedes but I wouldn't disparage the recent models, which I haven't tried, based on its shortcomings. After much research and introspection, I decided to buy the Chef's Choice XV too. My figuring went that I'd get 90% of the performance of the Edge Pro system with only 10% of the time (the $70 price difference was a minor issue); for a home cook, that just made more sense. Perhaps the ratio is off (80/20? seriously doubt it's 70/30) but there are no good comparisons anywhere that I can find. Don't have you guys experience but it seems like I'm getting more than WallyWorld performance from my knives. But the inner-geek in me wonders if I can improve performance with a high-quality honing rod or other apres-machine finishing. If somebody shows some detailed real world testing that the XV is significantly inferior to an Edge Pro system, I'll Ebay the unit and make the switch. From what I can tell, stones are more like the last 2-3% of performance that won't matter to folks like me.

BTW I'm not an audiophile but if you want to geek out we can talk photography ;-)


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It's hard to put a precise ratio on the performance of the Chef's Choice vs an EP (or plain water stone sharpening by hand, done skillfully). Pushed to assign a figure I'd say the Chef's Choice gets you to somewhere between 25% to 40% of what you'd be get on stones. If you use an EP Apex with the OEM stones that come with the unit, and just follow the factory angles already on the knife, then maybe the Chef's Choice _might_ get you 40% as sharp. If you practice a lot with the Apex and learn to modify the geometry of the knife to suit your purpose, and add aftermarket stones like the Shaptons and the Choceras,well...the performance of _that_ edge will be breathtaking, probably beyond anything you've ever experienced. No preset electric wheel sharpener can even approximate that type of performance. However, that presupposes you have a knife capable of taking that kind of an edge, and that knife will probably be Japanese, or maybe a high performance carbon steel blade like a vintage Sab.

I haven't used the very newest version of the Chef's Choice, but I suspect even ten versions from now it will still suffer from the same shortcomings. In part it's because those shortcomings constitute the main advantage of the unit: Simplicity. Slot-type, wheel-powered disc sharpeners like that are made to be simple. Generally there's only one sharpening angle or a very limited range of angles; this prevents confusion over the machine's correct use. They will also by necessity have a very limited selection of abrasive media. I think the new CC has 2 different materials, a ceramic or diamond disc and some type of stropping disc. The designer of the machine compromised and selected an angle and style of cutting disc that would be acceptable to a broad range of steels and knife types. Of course it stands to reason that by being adequate for most it may be ideal for none. Would you put the same angle on a fillet knife as you would a meat cleaver? Probably not.

The Edge Pro is a very interesting system in great part because it's barely a system at all. It's really hand sharpening with an "edge", if you will. All it does is maintains a consistent, unwaveringly accurate angle between a water stone and the edge of the knife. Beyond that you're doing all the work. For the most part, the "brain" of the Chef's Choice system is in the device itself. The EP has no brain- you're required to use your own./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif You must determine the correct angle, the proper stones to use, how much time is spent on each stone and when it's time to move to the next. You must recognize the formation of the burr or, once you've reached the "Dark Lord of the Swarf" stage, the point where another stroke will create one. The EP is like chess: It's relatively simple to learn the rules to the point where you can play a game (get a good edge) but a lifetime could be spent adding to one's understanding of and mastery of it's nuances. In that sense it truly is hand sharpening. The Apex just steadies your hand.

For me the performance gulf between mediocre cutlery and edges and high end ones is a huge, yawning chasm. Of course, I'm not only a culinary pro, I'm a knife geek. Photography is a good analogy. Back in HS I did photography for the yearbook, but I'm by no means an expert. If I had more money I'd probably get a nicer camera than the higher end point-and-shoot I now use. But I don't have enough use for one to drop a grand nor am I skilled enough with one to be able to fully utilize a $5k camera if you handed one to me. The Chef's Choice is a _Canon Powershot_ camera to the Edge Pro's _Leica M3. _I know enough to know the Leica is much better but not enough to do anything about it. The same may go with cooks who've never experienced higher performance knives sharpened on good quality water stones. And like with photography the added performance will probably be trivialized by those who don't "get it" and overstated by those who live for wringing that last iota of performance out of their tools.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Alpncook said:


> From what I can tell, stones are more like the last 2-3% of performance that won't matter to folks like me.


Just to clarify, it's a lot more than than 2-3%, but you're right- it may not matter to you. And that's absolutely okay. Just as I'm not into designer clothes or expensive cameras most normal people don't spend 20 hours a week reading about and discussing knives on the 'net.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> One of the restaurants I worked at once had a Chef's Choice on the line for the house knives. To be charitable it did make a completely dull knife sharper. But it really scratches the bevel up, not that that makes a big difference. I'm pretty dubious that if finishes to 3k grit, or at least that it finishes nicely at 3k. Still, BDL is right- for someone who would otherwise not sharpen at all it's a decent tool. Of course, I'm probably one of those "nutjobs" that gets a headache from the $500 PSBs. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Even at the computer I'm typing this from I've got Monitor Audio Gold Ref 10's connected (usb running to a Stereolink USB-DAC, Speltz Anti-Cable connecting that to an NAD C-320BEE integrated, feeding the speakers via DIY shotgun biwire cables). I guess the point is I'm pretty rabid in regard to both hobbies.
> 
> At any rate, I apologize if I came off as an a$$. Well, I am an a$$ most of the time but I try to keep it under wraps. After a few glasses of wine I took your post the wrong way. I'll play nice now./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


Ahhhh, fun stuff!!!

All's good. I won't chew up more board space with audio geek talk, we could go to AVS for that (at least that's where I go).

All's good bro.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm a member of AVS but I don't go there a lot lately since I consider more of a video site and I'm pretty well set there.  My main audio hangouts are Audiocircle & Audioholics (I'm actually a moderator at both of them), although I'm also a member of several other boards including Audiokarma & AudioNervosa..


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

I'm a member at audiocircle and audioholics too.  I liked AVS the best because I ended up meeting and hanging out with about 6-7 guys from there on a bunch of occasions.  If you ever saw pictures or reviews from "SE Wisconsin" shootouts, subwoofer GTG's, etc... I was probably at those (from the past couple years anyways).  I've been slowing down on the A/V stuff lately though because I'm not in a shopping mode (for that stuff).


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Another one? What is with you Wisconsin guys! You're everywhere!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

chefedb said:


> For the life of me I can't see people coming out of culinary school (in debt) then going out and spending hundreds on knives. If your knife cost 25 or 125. if you use it correctly you will get same results. I have carbon steel knives with wood handles which I got when I graduated cooking high school and thats over a half century ago , that I still use. I take care of them, don't loan them out, and keep each one in a separate sheath. Think the most expensive one cost me about 12.


I wanted to comment on this because I am a value driven type buyer, agree with much of what your saying, but also from just being observant of my surroundings during my time living I think your missing the value in many of these knives (the sub $300 range at least).

Please hear me out before thinking I am nuts (well actually may be a little anyhow, but that just helps to accept part of the point I am going to make. Also I apologize if this is too much or too political for anyone.

I feel a good quality knife from a country with above average living standards that actually pays their employees making their products enough to eat at a McDonalds here in the US for lunch everyday (sorry China, India, and all those many eastern countries I do not really know much of as your not included due to wages and conditions our felony level inmates do not have to endure) is a bargain under $200, and an extreme value under $100, but also less expensive after adjustments than those $12 knives you purchased in the 60's.

Just a quick comparison makes it obvious sine the Cadillac you could have purchased in the 60's brand new for approx $3,000 USD is now $50,000 USD and rising it is obvious that paying $80 for a quality Japanese made entry level knife is a sweet deal (just what I did) and getting an even higher end one between $100-$200 is just as sweet.

plus the sub $100 ones are a better bargain after adjustment than the $12 one purchased in the 60's compared to the Caddy.

Wont get into this too much because much as it is important to all of our futures most people just get all pissy with me when I bring this up. Cant say if it is cause it makes it harder to just continue on wearing the blinders of denial, but then who knows.

Where I am headed is that once this was a really wealthy country, or better said a country with a really wealthy working class. It was by most beliefs driven by desire to improve and excel but also by lots of hard work, long hours, and creative thinking. I think most would agree that many working class families prospered during the height of US based manufacturing as wealth increased.

This allowed a lot of luxury's that just are not valued the same today. Pick your poison but everything from stay at home moms being the norm to various employer paid benefits and retirement pensions. For our younger viewers Yes your employer at many if not most jobs offered some kind of a pension in the past, and it was not funded in majority by your money and not risked in some mutual fund in the stock market.

A younger friend just asked me the other day what ever happened to that (after discussing how people lived without all the tech items we have today) and I told her our politicians traded it for cheap poorly made products from third world nations that a much poorer working class can afford.

I know I do not explain this best and that makes it difficult to make my point here, but basically when we sent our manufacturing and better paying jobs overseas our wealth went with it, well that is not completely true as much of it comes back through profits to US based corporations, but it does not trickle down to the workers as the idea was to reduce the cost of paying them in the first place.

So why do we pay what seems to be big dollars to Japanese knife manufacturers? I think that we don't as we have seen already that with adjustments ChefDB favorite knives would cost much more than my $80 Fujiwara with adjustments, but what about $12 knives today that can be had from China and the sort? I think we have to consider that after WWII the US paid out countless millions in tax payer dollars to help rebuild the damage done etc (similar for Germany and others as well) but what few failed to notice was that it was not the taxpayer that saw any benefit from this, but rather it was the corporations (many US) that were able to take advantage of the influx of quality Japanese products (everything from electronics to autos etc) by using these items to replace products made in the US by higher paid workers.

Combine this with what many call the "30 corporate plan to overtake American markets" that various Japanese companies were involved with and was also backed by their government (some believe that US corps were in it as well, but too long for here) was so successful in destroying our MFG and markets that it screwed up their economy as much if not more today than our very own. I know that is no comfort, but just think that this was so bad that the US Navy had to petition the DOD to make adjustments to procurement because many of the bearings and related industrial parts used to maintain our nuclear subs were no longer made in the US, and had to be sourced from Japan. Yes these pressures and purchases of our companies by foreign ones that pretty much put them out of business had left them unable to source parts domestically.

Now throw in China and how obvious our legislators are with discussing the problems they created there borrowing and what not, and not only are these knives a bargain at these prices, but were lucky we can still afford to buy anything outside of a third world nation anymore, and the future is not looking rosy.

Sorry for the rant, but I did manage to avoid getting too deep or discussing property taxes here going from a few hundred a year back then to an average of well over $10K.

Yes these knives are a bargain now arent they 

PS. No I was not old enough to know all of that first hand, but it seems easy to find the information.

PSS I also agree it is the hand holding the knife that makes things happen, and I learned this during a short time spent as a cook in an Italian ristorante years back, but you can not ignore that no matter if your a top handler or someone who should order out it is still a better experience with a properly designed and sharpened knife.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> I designed and manufactured high end audio cable (among other things) in the mid-eighties through mid-nineties. My company was called _Pure Logic. _Perhaps you've heard of it.
> 
> BDL


I am being totally serious (well almost lol) maybe it would be easier if you just make a short list of the things you do not do


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> A Toyota Camry and a Mercedes E-550 convertible will both get you to the grocery store, but they are not the same cars. Just so, there's no NEED to spend $250+ on a chef's to get a great knife. For instance, you can still get T-I or K-Sab carbon for not much more than $100. But it may be necessary to spend the big bucks to get the great knife you want. And if you haven't used a really good, well sharpened, Japanese made knife (specifically excluding Shun and Global from "really good") you have no idea of what you're missing.


I agree with this, and understand 100%

One thing to add though is that some people no matter if they can actually afford a C230 even will not sleep without one or another car priced out of their needs, and I know plenty with the ability to pay cash for a 600AMG that refuse to even buy a new car.

It all gets you there, but what makes life so much fun or even interesting is all the different ways we seem to find our way there.

Then there are those like myself that specifically choose where to "go nuts" and where to "over shop" things.

I personally did not see the need to buy a $300 chefs knife anymore than a 100K mercedes, but have spent more than I have into J knives on a night out (by many times) there are some things you can not replace or go back and do again (good times, time with family etc), and others that you just need to get by with even if you do indulge a bit.

IMHO


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## vas38 (Dec 10, 2010)

The knife came today and it is gorgeous. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but it feels great in my hand I really like the extra length it offers. I think it will take a little time to get used to the differently shaped belly but that isn't a problem. Tomorrow's dinner will offer my first chance to try out the new tool. I will be sure to post some thoughts. I will be using the factory blade because the 1.2k hasn't come back in stock, but it does seem pretty sharp out of the box it easily shaved my arm hair.

I do have another question though. Because of the knifes size I cannot store it in my knife block (which came with my old knives). I need a new storage option that is easily accessible. I was thinking of a drawer knife block because the drawer on my butcher would let smaller knives fall through (it is an open style wirebar drawer). I want something that won't damage any of the knives I have and was looking at the Totally Bamboo block which looks like it would hold a 10" knife. Would using a bamboo block like this be a problem because the blade rests on the wood (obviously I would gently set it down)? I'm probably worrying about nothing, but better ask then do something stupid. Also, are there any similar blocks that hold a steel or will I have to keep that elsewhere?

Also, I'm a DIY speaker builder .

Edit: This was the alternative if bamboo isn't a good idea. The other option would be getting a bin and sheaths for all the knives, but having knives laying about like that seems too messy for my tastes. I think.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

vas38 said:


> Also, I'm a DIY speaker builder .


 Usher DIY from parts express for the win!


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## bhtoad (Jul 14, 2010)

I love the way this thread has morphed into a high end audio tweak discussion!  Thanks for bringing back the memories, racineboxer!  In a former life I used to design and install high-end mobile systems and would spend countless hours with customers debating the differences between Focal silk dome tweeters and Canton metal dome tweeters.  Basically it all came down to the same thing expressed here.  To each his own.  (FWIW, the silk domes were smoother sounding, but the metal dome's brightness was more popular with older listeners who's high frequency hearing was deteriorated.)

I was planning on updating my collection of Wusties to something from Japan, but after reading this and many other threads, I'm going to hold off until I improve my sharpening skills.  I'd hate to invest in nice knives and never realize anything close to their full potential because I don't know how to maintain them.


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