# Nakiri vs Kiritsuke $200 or less



## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Hello fellow chefs,

I've been doing a lot of research and am looking to buy a j-knife. Initially, I was going to buy a Shun, but after doing some research realized that I can get a real j-knife for the same price or less. I'm a hobbyist cook (who just pretends to be Chef LOL) and my knives are only used for vegetables since I don't eat meat. So no need for a knife that can handle bone or anything like that. Both the nakiri and kiritsuke are very appealing to me, but besides the basics of blade length, tip, etc, I do not know which of these knives would be better for me.

Also, I don't know which steel is best. AS, #1, #2? What does a reactive blade look like with time? I do take care of my knives and am willing to put in the time to learn how to properly sharpen my new one. Stone recommendations would also be welcome. My hands are small and I prefer a lighter knife with a Japanese handle.

Here are a couple of the many knives I've had my eye on:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tanakanakiri1.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ki210kibl2.html

Any and all advice is most welcome.

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Added links


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

You sound like you don't know what you're doing so don't get a kiritsuke.  It is a single bevel knife.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Real kiritsuke are single beveled knives and really not so suitable for non-experienced people who are also not cooking predominantly cuisine in a Japanese way (and who know how to sharpen single beveled knives). It is something of a hybrid of yanagiba and usuba and not as good as each of those at their specified tasks.
There are double beveled kiritsuke that are pretty flat like the traditional version but the link you listed is not this type

I would trend towards gyuto (for its more versatile profile to different cutting techniques), nakiri, or even Chinese cleaver (which the #6 size is really more of a slicer thickness) just because it's got some extra length that helps with bigger veg like large onions or heads of cabbage+ lettuce

Check out Tanaka knives here for if/when they are restocked http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/6 you are looking at a severely upmarked price for the same product

Do you have a sharpening budget?


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Thank you for the link to that wonderful Tanaka!  If I only spent that much on a knife, I could spend the same on sharpening.  

I would not say I am a beginner as far as technique in the kitchen; the hurdle for me with a single bevel kiritsuke would be learning how to sharpen it properly. I do cook a lot of Japanese/Korean food as I am Korean.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

What sharpening are you doing for your current knives?


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Honing steel about twice a week then I have a sharpening stone that I use when the knives need it.  It's a Chinese stone and I absolutely need to get a better one.  My plan was to replace both knives and stone.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Single bevel sharpening is a very different beast. You'd also want a whole range of stones to take it up finer. And not go budget on a single bevel knife to avoid as many grind problems as possible. And go with a vendor that can definitely provide initial sharpening ('opening') of the knife

Drop the honing steel when you move to harder knives.

Here's a rec

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/nakiri/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-nakiri

Blade grind is good. A sexy nakiri. I have to talk myself out of getting this when I go get to see it in person :3

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...-medium-stones/products/1000-3000-combo-stone or the version with the base but it's a slight budget breaker. Those dimensions should be fine if the biggest thing you're sharpening is a nakiri.

Waterstones dish over time, and you're going need a flattening solution sometime down the line. Look to the stone fixers or diamond plate here https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories or Wet or Dry coarse sandpaper backed on a flat surface but will obviously need to be rebought over time.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Reactivity-





  








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Monosteel carbon, then Ikazuchi in the back which is stainless clad carbon. Like you I cut predominantly fruits & vegetables so I don't tend get crazy crazy colors like some





  








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Soft iron clad carbon that gets sharpening and polished all the time because it's pretty rust prone. This was just a little bit of slicing reconstituted shiitake mushrooms.

None of these have been used enough period or without getting periodically polished a bit to represent the awesome stable patinas like I've seen on some vintage/heavy use monosteel carbons (that well used knife look)

Edit - meant to mention, that stainless clad semi-stainless nakiri I linked isn't going to get anywhere like these as far as discoloration/patina. It'll probably just slooooowly go cloudy gray where the core steel is exposed


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Thank you for all of this info!  I'm getting a really good idea of what I should be aiming for now.  So I don't necessarily have to aim for AS or Blue #2 (like the nakiri I posted)?

Oh yes, I'd totally forgotten about "opening the knife" on a single bevel.  Maybe I will move to a single bevel later on when I can spend the money on an outstanding knife and sharpening kit.  Whatever I buy, I do not want to cut corners because these knives should last a lifetime.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

uneunsae said:


> So I don't necessarily have to aim for AS or Blue #2 (like the nakiri I posted)?


What's giving you this impression?

You could also check for when this restocks http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-180mm-wa-nakiri/

Edit - Yikes, I didn't initially notice you linked the Blue #2 Tanaka nakiri (I linked back the VG10 version). By most if not all accounts it's very reactive and fully soft iron clad so you don't even have a kurouchi layer helping you out for like half the blade. Unless you're very used to using reactive blades I would be hesitant to recommend this as the first one. And metalmaster had it for $68 when it was last stocked...


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

This one was VG10 http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/6


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

No worries.  I just submitted a post with the link to the V10 but it will show up later due to pending approval.  LOL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Don't go single bevel on this budget. You WILL regret it. I have never hated a knife, except the one really cheap usuba I picked up at a flea market in Kyoto. You simply cannot make it work right. (Then I got a real usuba, and adore it.) I use mostly single-bevel, all carbon, and I can tell you that cheap here is a very, very bad thing.

As to your technique, single bevels aren't harder to use and sharpen, but they're utterly different. So you'd have to re-learn. That means a large commitment of time, money, and frustration.


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Yikes!  Thank you for letting me know.  I'll stay away from single bevel until I have money to experiment.  It's looking like nakiri for me.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Why not a gyuto?


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Because I mostly do straight up and down chopping plus slicing and I wanted a specialty knife. I am not opposed to gyuto, but it's not what I had in mind.

Edit: This gyuto did catch my attention http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mamigy21.html


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

What do you think of these two gyuto?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mayugy21.html


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Better yet get a chuka. Does everything a nakiri can do and many things nakiri can't do. Suien VC $160

http://japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html#ChineseCleaver


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Again really overpriced on those knives...try Knifewear instead. https://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-mizu/products/masakage-mizu-gyuto-210mm Make sure you toggle to USD (it's defaulted to CAD). Note that the Mizu is fully reactive, as is the Moritaka, and for sure the Moritaka cladding is somewhat stink/rust prone

https://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-yuki/products/masakage-yuki-gyuto-210mm

https://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritak...i-Blue-Super-Carbon-Steel.html?category_id=86 though last year it was possible to order direct from Moritaka and I received a 240mm from them for like under $150 including shipping. I'd recommend you browse elsewhere for good value knives in this price range.

If you're comfortable stepping it up to $200 then consider Ikazuchi 240mm at Japanese Knife Imports

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...uchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-220mm-chinese-cleaver To echo Millions's chukabocho recommendation, but in stainless for ease of maintenance. Good chukabocho just fall through veg...


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Thanks for the links, both of you! 

There doesn't seem to be a place that sells J-Knives other than Shun in my city.  It's too bad I can't get my hands on these to demo them.

One question, something like a kabocha squash will chip these knives, yes?  My cheap knives will be kept for jobs like that.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I've got to drive over to Austin in order to see any J-knives in person myself
Have cut kabocha with a Tojiro Gyuto and a Suisin Inox sujihiki no problem.


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

If a gyuto can handle a kabocha, then it would be perfect since that's the hardest thing I cut.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

My gyuto eats kabocha alive.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It only chips if you turn the knife when cutting. If you cut straight then there's no problem


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Will the 210mm gyuto have more of a straight edge than the larger ones? I want as much straight blade as I can get. Or else just get the nakiri. I am a vegan and never cut anything but veg or sometimes nuts.

Edit:

Also wondering if the price jump from the Yuki to the Koishi is worth the increase in performance or if I will hardly notice a difference. Yes, I know the Koishi is 180mm.

https://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-yuki/products/masakage-yuki-gyuto-210mm

https://knifewear.com/products/masakage-koishi-as-gyuto-180mm

Those are my two favourite gyuto atm.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

It's not going to have a relatively flat area for as long as a nakiri, but what you're getting is extra length to cut cleanly through things like larger daikon, kabocha, and melons.

Koishi is thinner and will be better getting through taller+denser foods. But 180mm is short...


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Yes, I'm currently searching for a good price.  Do knife retailers ever have sales around the holidays?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Knifewear will do a Masakage sale in February. Last year it was 15%

Japanesechefsknife should be doing a 10% sale in December

I've seen Bernal Cutlery do sales and random Instagram promotions

The Itinomonn I had was purchased during a sale that Maksim put on at Japanese Natural Stones :3

Epicurean Edge might be doing some post-Thanksgiving flash sales

Expect some of the sellers to put special edition knives probably around the holiday times as well. I had seen Knives and Stones and JCK do this.

Japanese Knife Imports has started doing a special of the day kind of thing https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/pages/special-of-the-day

These are just the ones I can think about off the top of my head. I don't follow all the e-tailers that closely (for example Chubo, Tosho Knife Arts, etc.)


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Oh great!  I will keep my eye out.

That Itinomonn nakiri is still tempting me, I have to admit.  Just stunning!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Korin usually does a holiday sale and so does Japanesenaturalstones about 20% as I recall. Epicurean edge has some big cyber monday deals.

Maybe consider this one (probably won't be on sale, their deal of the day knives are usually higher priced customish knives from the ones i've seen)

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-nakiri


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

I think I will take the advice some people have given and get a gyuto for my first knife. It's just a little over my budget, but this is the knife I would like to buy. Yes, it is fully reactive, but I am more than okay with that and am prepared for it. I'm just an at home chef and am willing to spend the time and effort with my knife:

https://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-shimo/products/masakage-shimo-gyuto-210mm


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You might have a rough time of it for a while if you do a lot of tomatoes and onions in your prep. Would you still get the knife knowing that the patina might wipe out most the good looks?

In this same price range for a 210 gyuto also keep in mind the Itinomonn 210mm

Where does this leave your budget for stones?


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

After talking to a few people and doing a ton of research, I am ready for a fully reactive carbon blade.  Though I don't eat onions because I am allergic, I do eat tomatoes and will not be disappointed when I see the blade react.  I'm fully prepared to take care of this blade.  

I am going to stretch my budget a bit in order to get both this knife and stones.  I will buy the stone you linked before unless you recommend something else.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The main thing is the soft iron cladding has more impurities than the core steel so it's really the cladding that's the finicky part. Noticeably moreso than monosteel carbon (2 of my photos)

I would have suggested bigger and separate stones than the one linked if you have budget for it :3


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It's a nice knife. Masakage makes some cool stuff. If it calls to you for whatever reason, go for it! I think you will use a knife you like more. I have knives with carbon clad carbon. Don't worry about it. Yes it will be reactive, you can force a patina, rub down a baking soda slurry, etc. I recommend to cut plantains.

This might interest you


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> It's a nice knife. Masakage makes some cool stuff. If it calls to you for whatever reason, go for it! I think you will use a knife you like more. I have knives with carbon clad carbon. Don't worry about it. Yes it will be reactive, you can force a patina, rub down a baking soda slurry, etc. I recommend to cut plantains.
> 
> This might interest you


What kind of patina do the plantains help build?

Totally getting the Springhammer DVDs during my Masakage month buy!


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

MillionsKnives said:


> It's a nice knife. Masakage makes some cool stuff. If it calls to you for whatever reason, go for it! I think you will use a knife you like more. I have knives with carbon clad carbon. Don't worry about it. Yes it will be reactive, you can force a patina, rub down a baking soda slurry, etc. I recommend to cut plantains.
> 
> This might interest you


Beautiful video, thanks for the link. I'm reading up on all the techniques you mentioned right now. This knife does call to me for some reason and I like the story of the blacksmith who makes it. He almost quit, but made a knife for a lady and it made her so happy, he decided to continue.

Edit: Typo


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

foody518 said:


> The main thing is the soft iron cladding has more impurities than the core steel so it's really the cladding that's the finicky part. Noticeably moreso than monosteel carbon (2 of my photos)
> 
> I would have suggested bigger and separate stones than the one linked if you have budget for it :3


Then I will get bigger and separate stones.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

As I understand Masakage brought together a number of craftsmen who work on different parts of the knife for this. Some blacksmiths just do the forging, some do the grinding, some handles. I think he does the finishing parts of grinding and sharpening.

@foody518 plantain peel has tannic acids as used in commercial rust converters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_converter#Typical_ingredients

try it and see 

You'll see some blue/purple/blackish coloring come out. This is one way ink was made a long time ago. I think persimmons would do it too. persimmon juice was used as rust converter historically


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> As I understand Masakage brought together a number of craftsmen who work on different parts of the knife for this. Some blacksmiths just do the forging, some do the grinding, some handles. I think he does the finishing parts of grinding and sharpening.
> 
> @foody518
> plantain peel has tannic acids as used in commercial rust converters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_converter#Typical_ingredients
> ...


And his instagram is awesome 

Thanks for the link and the history! The picture of the converted rust spots looks like the pitted metal look of old carbon knives

@uneunsae grab a medium grit 800-1.5/2k stone and a fine grit 4-6k. Off of Knifewear the Naniwa Akamonzen 1k and either the Naniwa yellow 4k or Arashiyama 6k should be solid options. Plus a flattening device from somewhere.


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Awesome!  Now to wait for sales... as patiently as possible. lol


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

uneunsae said:


> Awesome! Now to wait for sales... as patiently as possible. lol


fyi itinomon is on sale right now actually site wide sale 20%


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Thank you!


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## uneunsae (Oct 27, 2016)

Update:  I caved and bought the Shimo before the sale because I wanted it for Christmas.  I could not be more pleased with this knife.  A friend was extremely generous and bought me both 1000 and 6000 grit stones as a gift.  Thank you for all the advice.  Knifewear has very good customer service and they were more than happy to send me their flattest profile Shimo as I requested.  It has quite a bit of flat area and Knifewear also included a little bio of Kurosaki-san and a 10% coupon to use in the future.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Enjoy Christmas with the new knife! Good to hear about the stones too, what a generous friend!


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