# Open Discussion of Southern Cooking



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Izbnso PMed me about more Southern Cooking discussion. So here is some. 

Some of what I like: Long cooking, use of vinegar, pickles, slaws, relishes, desserts, barbecue, bread, biscuits, cornbread, fried foods 

Some of what I don't like: Grits, hominy, spoonbread. I'll say cornbread again as it's quite regional and some types just don't work for me. Also collard greens They've been too bitter for me. I've liked other greens better. I'll get all kinds of grief for not appreciating these hallmarks of Southern Cooking I'm sure. 

In general terms, the South isn't afraid of fats and what they bring to a dish. I think we've lost that richness and flavor in much of modern cooking. The pig has reached some of it's highest peaks among the Southerners with barbecue, bacon, sausage, ham and lard. Yet it can be integrated with a modern healthy diet with discretion, moderation and balance.

Yet despite that richness, they're frugal, eating just about anything everything. Like most great cuisines, the best of the South rises from the eating of the poor commoners. And again like most great cuisines, there was a rich culture that refined some of that primitive cooking. Hospitality regardless of class is also a hallmark of the culture that is reflected in the cuisine and it's love of prepared foods for quick sharing and snacking. 

And don't forget blues and jazz.

Phil


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

So lets focus on grits for a minute. People swear up and down that once you have their grits you'll love them. Everyone else makes them wrong. 

It hasn't proven true for me yet. I have the same problem with polenta. Not that polenta and grits are the same but when they're fresh and hot, they're just bland mush. I find the texture unappealing and the flavor lacking. Even with cheese or topped with stuff. 

Once you let it set up and toast it, it gets pretty good. Just not fresh and gooey.

I'll grant you I've not tried them again in quite a while. It might be time to try again. But I'm not holding out much hope. 

Phil


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## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Sorry, but you can keep the grits...

Haven't ever been served any that I thought were appealing...

As a disclaimer, I grew up in northern Illinois, moved to the Phoenix, AZ area as a teenager, and never had any direct exposure to those things...

However, my business travels have taken me to many places in the south and southeast, and my curiosity has me trying grits at least once in each regional area.

None have passed the "acceptance" test.

Sorry if that offends true southerners, but this honky just can't hang...

Now if we want to talk about green beans or peas cooked up with a dollop of bacon grease, or scrumptious sweet cornbread, or chicken fried steak, or grilled pork chops, or kale and spinach salads with sliced tomatoes and cukes with mushrooms, well, bring it on!!!

My wife's family come from Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas, and the cooking she was taught at her Granny and Mom's side had a bunch of the southern influence that I learned to appreciate...

Geez, making me salivate just typing this out!!!


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

I wonder how many different "authentic" recipes there are for Southern Fried Chicken? I don't make it that often, but I sure do enjoy those times I do. I made a chicken dish tonight that ended up getting chucked out, possibly a seperate thread later. Drat.

Collard greens can indeed be bitter. Beet greens and spinach are similar but a bit more savory in my opinion. No opinion on turnip greens, never had them. Parsnip and carrot greens seem like they would not be good. I could be wrong, as is so often the case.

I like grits, though mostly as a carrier for the butter, salt, cheese and hot sauce. Yet another food like substance that benefits from having a couple of nice, runny, sunny side up eggs stirred into it.

A few months ago went to a nephew's wedding in Mission Viejo, CA. Stayed at this Hampton Inn where they provide a modest breakfast in the morning. My wife's family is from the Arizona, southern Cal area, they couldn't quite figure out what this one item was. Being from the midwest, having seen miles and miles and miles of cornfields, I knew what fried cornmeal mush was the moment I saw it. Sort of a Peoria polenta. I meant to seek out the staff person who was responsible and thank them. But we had a wedding to get to.

Probably the closest I come to making a 'Southern' dish is my black eyed peas with ham hocks. Plopped on a plate next to a pile of barbecue of whatever description, with an ample quantity of cornbread to sop up the various liquids, that's some good eating' Actually a number of folks I know don't eat the cornbread as a piece of cornbread, but crumble it up to scatter over the beans and such.

I've never developed a taste for sweet tea. I've never had any deep fried 'white meat' but I bet I would like it.

And I'm assuming that by 'Southern' you are leaving out southern Louisiana, which is a whole 'nother story.

mjb.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

_*Southern Fried Chicken*_ ... what makes the dish "southern fried" as opposed to northern fried. western fried, or any other fried? Are there major regional differences in fried chicken?

What states make up the south?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>What states make up the south? <

Depends on who's counting, and for what purpose, Shel.

Geographically, if you extend the Ohio River along the Mason/Dixon line, everything bordered by the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers, except Florida, is considered to be the South. 

Florida, because of it's different location, weather patterns, culture, and history, is in a class by itself. 

From a cultural viewpoint, Arkansas and Louisiana are often grouped as part of the South. 

From a culinary viewpoint, Arkansas and Louisiana are not truly southern. They are southern with a French overlay. 

From one historic viewpoint it would include all states and territories that joined or backed the Confederacy. So in that regard, Texas, for instance, which is generally considered Southwestern, would be a Southern state. 

I forget, offhand, how the Commerce Department and Census Bureau define it. But I seem to recall that they do it differently from each other.


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## allie (Jul 21, 2006)

I grew up in southeast Georgia. When I was 4 or 5 to age 7, we lived with my maternal grandmother and then we moved into the newly remodeled "home place" across a small field from her. This is the home where my grandfather, mother, and then my sister and I lived as children. My father planted a garden every year and my mother, grandmother, sister, and I froze and canned the vegetables he grew. The garden consisted of several types of butterbeans (colored and white but I don't know the "official" names), peas (black eyes, purple hulls, zippers, big boys, and more), squash (yellow and zucchini), tomatoes, bell peppers, cayenne peppers, okra, cucumbers, corn, green beans, watermelons,and sometimes cantaloupe. In spring, he'd plant turnips, beets, collards, mustard, cabbage, and garden peas. In fall, he'd plant more turnips, collards, mustard, etc. 

In summer, we would have the best meals. Because we did most of our freezing and canning at my grandmother's house. She'd cook lunch while we worked. We'd have whatever was picked fresh from the garden that morning. Sometimes, we'd have fried fatback, fried cubed steak, fried chicken, hash (not from corn beef, from pork or beef roast), pork chops, pork roasts, etc. For supper, we'd have more of the same.....fresh cooked, not leftovers. 

Southern cooking to me, is not only about fat. It's about using what you have. The current movement to support locally grown foods, is only a new age version of how I grew up. We grew and put away as much as possible for eating year round. It was hard work and as a child/teen, I hated it! Now I try to grow as much as I can in my limited space and not waste a bit of it. 

We ate chicken cooked in many ways. For my family, southern fried chicken was not what I have seen it called online. There was no soaking in buttermilk and battering it. The chicken was cut up, washed, patted dry, salt and peppered, then dredged in flour before being fried in a cast iron skillet. I've adapted my own seasonings other than just salt and pepper but still do not use a batter or a soaking method. We grilled chicken and covered in bbq sauce. We roasted and baked chicken. We boiled and made chicken and dumplings, chicken soup, chicken and rice, chicken pot pie, chicken casserole.....my aunt and uncle even published a cookbook called "100 Simple Easy Ways to Prepare Chicken".

We ate pork chops, beef, shrimp, catfish, and other fish. True, a lot of these foods were fried but we didn't eat fried food every day. In reality, I'd say the "southern" diet I grew up eating was the first movement towards an everything in moderation mindset.

We always had a meat, starch, and veggies, usually at least 2 veggies, sometimes more, and lots of times had biscuits, lacy cornbread (thin batter fried on a cast iron griddle with a crunchy texture and "lacy" edges), rolls, or some other bread.

Mealtimes were family time. We ate when my father got home from work at the same time and as a family. Our large extended family get-togethers centered around food. We had two family reunions per year, one for my maternal grandfather's family and one for my maternal grandmother's family. These were potluck dinners and almost every woman cooked her best recipes and carried the food in her best dishes. The same went for funerals. As soon as neighbors, family, and friends heard of a death, the women started cooking and delivering food to the home. On the day of the funeral, lunch was provided for the familiy and everyone at the home but the community. No one was alone in their grief.

This is how I grew up and I'll always treasure my childhood in The South. My love of cooking came from watching my mother, grandmother, and aunts preparing meals seasoned with love for family and friends.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I just spent the weekend visiting old friends in Virginia - where I spent my teen years. It was great to revisit the flavors of Virginia.

Most notably hush puppies!!! I don't know what's wrong with northerners but hush puppies served with honey butter are the best darned thing about eating at a seafood shack.

I miss country fried steak, white gravy, real mac 'n cheese, corn bread (here in NY we have corn muffins - ick) fried chicken, and BEEF - I don't know why but beef in ny just doesn't taste good to me. You could order a steak at Applebees in Virginia and it would taste better than the fanciest steak house here in NY.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I'd hazard a guess that the South is the world center for quick breads. They're the masters of chemical leavening. 

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I love Southern cooking in its many glories. There are lots of regions and localities in the South that have their own special styles. I disagree that cajun, creole, "soul-food" etc., aren't "southern." There isn't just one, suburban, country-roots, white-folks, NASCAR Southern. That's a political marketing myth we shouldn't confuse with food.

And let's not confuse Southern cooking with generic farm and country cooking. There's nothing particularly Southern about biscuits, fresh vegetables, canning, fish fires, hush-puppies or any of that. It's just country. They do all that stuff all over the rural east and Midwest, too. They don't have the same flair with overcooking vegetables in pig fat though.

Grits are Southern. As was already said, grits aren't the point of grits. Grits are a way of eating something that's bad for you. Usually butter. I've got a shrimp and cheesy-grits recipe that will shut every artery you ever met. Yes. Including traffic arteries. Southern California counts, right?

Southern cooking kind of brings all that bad stuff in, sneaky like. "Iced tea" sounds innocent enough but Southern iced tea is so sweet you're molars vibrate at frequencies which make dogs howl. Hush puppies! Squash -- no. Squash flavored fat back -- yes. And so it goes. Of course, you can make all that stuff northern again by putting it on a stick and deep frying it. We're not completely clueless. But that's out-front bad. Not sly bad. A lot of Southern cooking is a way of getting kids to eat what's bad for them without them knowing it. "Mama," says the little Birmingham tyke, "I love your grilled chicken."

"Of course you do dear, and you're going to love it still more with this white sauce." Nothing like mayo and sugar to build build healthy bones.

"Southern fried," does not involve oil. Oil is too healthy. Like in salads. Salads are healthy. Your southern salads do involve oil, but only to make the mayo part of the Thousand Island dressing. Had there been a way to do it with Crisco, it would have been done. Spinach salad with hot bacon fat dressing? Southern. Southern Germany, to be sure... but Southern.

To the extent that it means anything, "Southern fried chicken," usually means flour dredged as opposed to battered. Add in pan frying, in lard or Crisco -- you're getting pretty darn Southern. Genuflect towards Savannah and you've got it. A buttermilk bath isn't particularly Southern or not Southern. It's just a good idea to make the chicken extra tender and tasty. And it is country. Loved the dipped in barbecue sauce before dredging thing. Loved it. I'd heard "The South shall rise again," but didn't know it was premised on midnight indigestion.

Some kinds of barbecue are southern, and some kinds aren't. California, open-pit beef barbecue isn't Southern. But it's barbecue. Great barbecue, in fact. One thing though, bad barbecue isn't Southern. They just won't have it. Also, every Southerner knows down to her cute little Southern toes that a barbecue and a grill are not the same thing. In the interests of maintaining perspective, let's not go overboard. It's true fire was not invented in the South and neither was smoked pig. On the other hand, mid-Carolinas mustard sauce was. They eat that in heaven, you know.

Chili dogs with coleslaw are Southern cooking. Chili was not invented in the American Midwest. Chili was not invented in Texas either. Texas chili, such as it is, as sold by the San Antonio "chili ladies" of sainted memory, was and is just regular old _chili colorado_ which is a Mexican thing. Or, thang, if you're reading this with an accent.. When the busboy dumped the beans in it, but forgot and left it on the table, and someone ate it and thought it was good -- if Cincinnati wants to claim that, they can have it. On spaghetti? Why not. Just goes to show, bad taste isn't regional. The hot dog wasn't invented in the South, neither was the bun nor the cole slaw. But put them together and ... Get you some plaid shorts, a pink alligator shirt, a pair of white socks with a big ol' Nike swoosh on them, and some brown boat shoes with leather laces. You in the South now, boy. Might as well dress like it.

Hush puppies are so southern they're from the Great Lakes. Seriously. No, seriously. Well, semi-seriously anyway. You can't expect me to stop laughing. The point is that fish-fries are neither Southern nor not-Southern. They're more Rotarian. Hush puppies are fish-fry and just as good in Minnesota as in Mississippi.

But there is one serious thing we have to face honestly -- unpleasant as it is. We northerners neither truly loved nor understood Crisco. That they went and wrecked and made it "New With Zero Transfat" is probably because Crisco cried itself to sleep every night because the north was so cruel. Now there's this other healthy that doesn't cook for $#%!. You know whose fault that is, right? Crisco died of a broken heart because the North killed it. Probably in San Francisco.

Some thoughts,
BDL


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Haha, yes the hot dog!!! 

My parents used to own and run a hot dog shop in Va. Beach. They used to advertise "Coney Island Style Hot Dogs" but then I got to NY and realized that there ain't nothin coney island style about 'em. Ooooooh NY talks a big game about their dogs but they hold nothing over the south. Unless of course you like 3-cent all-beef boiled kosher dogs topped with "mystery onion sauce".

Hmmmmmm the snap of a hormel or boarshead dog topped "all-the-way" (mustard, raw onion, chili) plus a big bloop of slawwww, nestled in a perfectly steamed bun YES STEAMED and it makes a world of difference! Southerners from my parts take their dogs seriously and there's all kinds of hot dog shops in the area. You haven't had one till you had one.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Cream Gravy is also often falsely ascribed to Southern Cooking. It existed many other places too but the Southerners do it best. 

Perhaps its the low protien flour making for silkier sauces. 

More likely it's that fact that they use fat for flavor and the gravy is probably loaded with bits of sausage and fond and plenty of black pepper.

Phil


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

If that's what your idea of what a NYC dog is, well ... let's just say that there is more to NYC dogs than the carts on the street, which is what you're describing.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

What NYC dogs are you refering to?


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Teach me to send a pm about starting a thread and then go to bed. Ya'll got started with out me. And chasing children all day got me behind.

KY is right about it depending on who you ask about which states make up the South. However, there are a fat lot of folks in the Florida Pan Handle that consider themselves separate from all those snow birds that moved in once they brought in air conditioning and got rid of the mosquitoes. My husband is from Miami, born during the Stone Age, and the Miami of his youth is culturally a far cry from Southern Florida today.

Louisiana is different, something that the people of Louisiana are very proud of, but still the South. We lived there for three years when I was young. I loved all the people and some of the food. Hot and spicy isn't my thing and neither are mud bugs. But a good mild sausage jambalaya and now we're talking. The first time my mother attended a neighborhood crawfish boil, she exclaimed that her Daddy used them for bait.:lol:

Grits, love 'em. If they are gooey, they're not right in my opinion.

Fried Chicken…well I'm a bit emotionally scarred from working at Fried Chicken joint in high school . Still gives me the willies and I refuse to eat at any fast food Fried Chicken restaurant and I highly recommend that no one else does either.

Sweet Tea, if it's made right I love it. I don't make it very often at home. Both my grandmothers and my mother made it everyday. My mother and my paternal grandmother put so much lemon in the pitcher (as many as 4 lemons to a pitcher) that I found it repulsive when I was little. My maternal grandmother made the best. Lemon added by the glass (or not) and enough sugar to be sweet but not cloying.

Quick breads are predominant here. You see dinner rolls that are yeast risen and a few coffee cakes, but that's it. I have never gotten a reasonable answer from a fellow Southerner as to why that is. The best assumption I can make is that it is tradition more than anything else.

I have to agree with BDL about what is considered Southern Cooking and how the South has been "marketed" and really that's the angle I had in mind when I suggested the thread to Phatch. 

We in the South are known to absolutely never have a chip on our shoulders about anything (that's called sarcasm). A fair amount of us are perturbed that when Southern cooking is extolled out side of our borders that what the rest of the world usually hears about is food from the bayou, generic farm food, or overcooked lard ridden food.
That is not to say that we all don't use more lard and bacon grease than the rest of the country put together. Or that you won't find those types of dishes in a myriad of different homes and restaurants. However, over use of the fat of the pig with mushy vegetables isn't the hallmark of real Southern cooking. It is the hallmark of a certain kind of Southern cooking.

The thing is, while every region has its stand out specialties, usually based on local ingredients and traditions, the rest of the world seems to think that chitlins, collards and corn bread is what we eat all the time. (I have never and will never touch the first, can't stand the second, but love me some corn bread!)There are plenty of people who eat lots of these dishes and generations of Southerners who's Mamas and Grandmamas never dreamed of serving such things.

And as to not being healthy, yes we don't think about that too terribly much. One Southern practice that I have always found abhorrent was the use/over use of food coloring. The reason for this always makes me think of the line in Steel Magnolias "Our ability to accessorize is what separates us from the animals." It's about being "pretty."

What is billed as Classic Southern food (as Phatch points out) is typically the food of the lower economic classes, of which we, admittedly, have always had a profusion of. But no, we aren't all NASCAR watching bumpkins who like deep fried pork chops served with insulin shock tea and cracklin' bread. Nor do we all take home fresh road kill for dinner, but I do know people who do. And a fair amount of us live on paved roads.

There is an entirely different side and approach to Southern cooking that doesn't get the same "press" as the clog your arties food BDL mentioned. For goodness sake, start a thread on Southern cooking and grits, fried chicken and pig fat are what ya'll start talking about, somebody cue the banjo music. We are more than that.

I believe I have a unique (and certainly biased) perspective because not only am I a Southerner, I come from both sides of that economic fence.
 I've talked about my Big Mama's biscuits before, throw in her divinity candy and corn bread and that is the complete list of foods from her kitchen that I remotely enjoyed growing up. She had a sixth grade education, never learned to drive and they got indoor bathrooms around 1960. Her husband, my grandfather, was a sharecropper and a prison guard. They grew a great deal of what they ate hunted and fished for most of their meat and she cooked it all to death and then some with enough lard and bacon grease to make your mouth greasy and a healthy dose of the homemade pepper vinegar on top.

My father's mother, a school teacher from a once prominent family but by no means wealthy, had a garden and grew some of their food. When they had sweet potatoes there were no marshmallows involved: roasted potato, little dot of butter a smidge of brown sugar and black walnuts. And Easter dinner had lamb when finances permitted (although I preferred ham) and always asparagus. Congealed salad desserts were a staple, as was ambrosia (no cherries or marshmallows), syllabub on the occasional Christmas Eve and her favorite pie was mince meat. Her black eyed peas (rarely served) retained a texture far away from baby food, but were seasoned with bacon grease or ham hock. Yellow squash, fresh from the garden, were either done in a similar fashion to scalloped potatoes or served cooked with just a bit of butter and onions. She often lamented that she never took the time to have her mother teach her how to make the dessert that was saved for special company: Charlotte russe 

On the coast of Alabama, where I have spent the majority of my life, the culinary influences are very diverse. The French settled and held the area long enough for just about everything from the Mobile region to have a major French twist. Over in Baldwin county, there were (and still are) a number of German families (Elberta sausage festival), my late husband was one of them. There is an enormous Greek influence here as well. Mobile has hosted a Greek festival for as long as I can remember and the Malbis Plantation in Baldwin County supported a self sufficient Greek community until the property value skyrocketed and they began putting up "planned communities."

And all of this "back story" makes the food or recipe relevant. Phatch, in your review you talked about how so much time was spent talking about the party or social event at which a given recipe was served, it seemed to puzzle you. Let me explain: often times, the back story is the most important bit of information. 

As in:
"I got this recipe from Billy's wife. No, not Cindy-Lou, she couldn't cook her way out of a wet paper sack. I got it from Becky-Lee, his first wife, who was the preacher's daughter that ran off and left Billy for that lion tamer from the circus. Which caused Billy to have to switch churches and that's where he met Cindy-Lou, who was so homely she was lucky to even get a divorcee. Well, Becky-Lee served this at the last garden club meeting she hosted before she blew out of town. She knew how much I liked it so she sent it to me on the back of a post card from Tanzania. But don't tell anybody I told you."
Entertaining can be a contact sport for the ladies of the South. Although it is tacky to keep score. Hence, you will always find that "party food" and "desserts" are the largest sections in any Junior League cookbook. 
We like winning ribbons for our desserts and preserves (I have a few myself) and the types of recipes we choose to share as our favorites speaks volumes about "who our people are", which is still something that is very important to a lot of us. Go ahead; ask me who my people are.

I'm sure it is true of all regions to some extent, but it feels to me that we Southerners disproportionally tie our stories and our food together so tightly that it is difficult to separate one from the other. Which is why a goodly number of us chafe at being thought of as only pig fat and collards, as I said before, we are far more than that.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I like backstory of recipes. But he didn't do a good job of it. You did a much better job of it. He didn't really tell the tale, more of a dead lifeless summary.


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## willie24 (Aug 13, 2008)

Here in upstate NY we have an abundance of Greek owned diners that pump out dogs with a meat sauce that's different than any other I ever had. It looks like a chili sauce but it's not. It's beef based with tomato juice, a lot of black pepper, and cinnamon in the background. Then it simmers all day and gets potent. They use plain old hot dogs with God knows what's in them grilled on the flat top, plain yellow mustard, sauce, and raw onion all in a steamed roll.

I'd pass on a recipe but they don't pass it out. In my younger years I worked in 3 different places and never got close to finding out what goes into that sauce. I'll tell you though, I wish I had a dollar for everyone of those dogs I put out (and ate).

Willie


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Well said, Izbnso.

But you have to admit that southerners help perpetrate the idea that southern cooking is all grits and red eye gravy. 

When is the last time you heard someone admit, outside our insular borders, that there was anyone in the population who wasn't a rusty neck, good ol' boy, or trailer trash?

The fact is, we love the stereotype typified by the old New Yorker cartoon. There's a guy in a suit & tie, with a briefcase that says "census bureau." He's talking to a long-bearded drink of water rocking on the porch of his ramshackle cabin.

"I'd say the average income 'roun' heah is $15,000 a year," the hillbilly is saying to the census taker. "Most of us make aroun' 1,200 dollah. Fella up on the hill makes 'bout half a million."

It's always amused me how much the NY Times is responsible for the maintaining the image of the dirt-poor, ignorant southerner, considering how many of its editors and columnists have been from the South. 

That aside, there are socio-economic differences that dictate the kind of food we eat, as well as regional ones. And the "party" mentality Phil refers to pervades everything. What is it Paula Dean told an interviewer: "We have the best funeral food in the world." 

A lot of that dates from before the War of Northern Aggression, when unexpected visitors were likely to drop by, and stay for a month. The whole concept of southern hospitality was born in those days, and became ubiquitous. Rich or poor, there was always enough food prepared to feed the stranger at the door. 

I eschew most books that proclaim themselves to be about southern cooking. They tend to cater to the image rather than the reality. Instead, I turn to any of the numerous church, and grange, and Junior League, and historical society cookbooks. You've seen them. Probably own a shelf of them. Volunteered recipes, plastic spiral binding, and used as fund raisers. But they contain what most would think of as "real" southern cooking.

Well, real to a certain stratum. Just as real are dishes like:

Rice Paper Wrapped Tuna Loin with Ginger.
Scallop Escabeche.
Pork Tenderloin "Au Poivre"
Bacon Wrapped Trout Stuffed with Crawfish..
Roasted Chicken with Collards, Red Onion, and Sweet Potato Chips.
And yes, even, Grilled and Braised Rabbit with Molasses, Bourbon, Slap Bacon, and Stone-Ground Grits.

Each of them can be found in Marlene Osteen's _Great Chef's of the South, _and are served in some of the finest restaurants in the region.

Are they any less southern cooking for being haut. I don't think so. The Blackberry Inn is just as much a southern eatery as Wanda's Café, outside of Norcross, Georgia.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Anson Mills grits.....actually have a corn flavor to them.....last time I served them with morels (dried added to the water), Hooks 10 year cheddar.....
smoothed them out with a dab of cream.

skimmed this thread, gotta go cook......but it was interesting reading that Arkansas has French influences.?!

I lived in Little Rock 7 years in the 1960's
Memphis 7 years
New Orleans/DeRidder/Baton Rouge 15 years
now St. Louis.....MO has the Mason-Dixon line but I honestly don't think of Missouri as the south.

All were different, all had regional specialties......

Thank goodness one of my buddies just openned a Southern bent restaurant with dishes from TN.
Another is openning a place this winter called Acadia......he worked with Leah Chase in the late 1970's at Dookie Chase in NO.....later worked at Blackberry Inn, Inn at Little Washington etc.....the place should have under 40 seats and real cajun/creole/soul food.!!!!! All this from a 50 year old heavily tattooed, white pony tailed, white guy.....just exciting having someone who knows their shtuff cooking at an easily neighborhood joint.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The South is also the home to rice in the US. California and Texas might be big growers now, but they don't know rice like parts of the South know rice. 

Gullah meals revolve around rice. 

Also dirty rice. 

Thomas Jefferson had his cooks make a risotto with the US rice after his trips to Italy. It's not the same in texture, but it's not bad. Not worth it if you do have arborio. 

Louisiana cooking also needs its rice for accompanying red beans. And Gumbo needs that rice too.

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I can't believe you wrote this. What would California, with its huge Hispanic and Asian populations know about rice?

The Asian population in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area alone, is about the same size as the combined, entire populations of Atlanta and (pre-Katrina) New Orleans. And that's about 1/4 the size of the Hispanic population here. And that's just one megalopolis.

I don't know where you go to eat when you come here, but you definitely need a better class of recommendations.

I'm not sure which rice you're comparing to Italian _arborio_, there are quite a few. Nor do I know which rice Sally Hemmings lovingly stirred to make TJ's risotto, but it was probably a long grain. Things have come a long way since then. Several of the Calrose types are at least as good for risottos as arborio. In terms of my own cooking, I'd choose a Calrose over arborio for risotto.

All sorts of rices from all over the world work for different applications. You don't need Fragrant Thai to make dirty rice. And if you use it, you're wasting your money.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I don't go to California. Haven't been in decades and have no plans to go again. 

My point was that for US cooking, the south is the place for rice. Sure Asian rice and hispanic rice is good. That's not US cooking. It's cooked in the US but it's not our cuisine so to speak. 

Now I prefer Asian cuisine to Southern food. But I limited it to the US in my very first line. Perhaps not clearly enough. 

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

OK

I see what you're saying. But it's silly and East-Coast-centric. Gullah/African, and Cajun/French is American. But Mexican and Asian influenced food isn't? Why? Mexicans got here before dirt (and us for that matter); and Asians became a significant part of the population in the middle of the nineteenth century. Surely, that's long enough to count. 

I know it seems like a stretch, but California is America too and so is Texas. American food is a big subject, and either includes all of the immigrant subgroups or none. I see it this way: If a young mother, herself born in the U.S. of A. cooks it at home -- it's American cooking -- no matter where grandma came from. 

Got a better rule? 

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Southern Cooking was largely intact and at it's peak at those times of ethnic influx. Consider the impact of Randolph's The Virginia Housewife". Much of that cooking is still classic Southern Food.

The Mexican and Asian influences haven't generated the same sort of regional cuisine. New Mexico cooking is quite different from Texas or California cooking. The Hispanic influence in East coast cooking are very different from those in the West coast. 

The historic Mexican and Asian populations were never brought into the mainstream society to have the impact that black slave cooking had. Not that black slaves were integrated into society either but their work and cooking strongly influenced southern cuisine. It may well be that without slavery, southern regional cooking would not have become what it is. Not so much with the others in my view. You can make an argument about Chinese Cooking and the railroads though.

There is a contemporary California cuisine that melds these influences. I don't think it as significant or historical yet. A very present influence in modern cooking, true.

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Phil,

I understand what you're saying and your point of view. Although I strongly disagree, my POV is clear enough to not require more discussion. The only thing I'm going to add is that in spite of and/or because of our disagreements, I have a lot of respect for you.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

So let's talk about mayonnaise in Southern cooking. 

It's authentic to modern southern food. Commercial mayonnaise seems to have originated in NY in the early 1900s. Not very historically southern. 

It's not authentic to older southern food which would have used boiled dressing. I often prefer a blend of boiled dressing and mayo for potato salad and it makes a good coleslaw to with the higher vinegar content. 

And with the health and storage issues surrounding dairy, boiled dressing may not have been in wide use either. I certainly don't see many references to it, even in the few old Southern cookbooks I've read. And I don't recall any references to mayo though I suspect the recipe was known by some. 

Another commercial product I interpret as having changed southern food is canned milk. The first canned milk was much like sweetened condensed milk and was supplied to the US soldier in the Civil War. The high sugar content was the preservative. While another northern product, I see sweetened condensed milk in desserts and sweets in many southern cookbooks, probably more so than in other regions. I've never seen it discussed so I'm just reading between the lines of history as it were as to where this trend may have originated. 

Phil


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>I'm just reading between the lines of history as it were as to where this trend may have originated. <

Nothing wrong with that, Phil. But it's crucial, when you do so, to step away from cookery, per se, and explore the whole social matrix of the times. To understand historical foodways you have to share the worldview of the people. 

Here's an example I'm fond of using.

Many people like to think that Southerners and deep frying is a relatively recent thing. As evidence they often quote George Washington who, at Valley Forge, is on record as exhorting the troops not to fry their rations. Boiling and grilling were preferred because frying could result in "a flux of the bowel." 

However, if there were no tradition of Southerners frying their food, his warning wouldn't have been necessary. And, if we were to look into it, it's likely that officers in the Roman Legions issued a similar warning---and for the same reason. 

All this is not as small an issue as you may think. As a long-time historical reenactor (what nowadays they snootily call "experimental anthropology") I have often seen where people apply a 21 century mindset to solving an 18th century problem. It just doesn't work. We do not see the world the way they did. But if we want to understand the world they lived in then it behooves us to try and understand their mindset.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Ugh, mayo. I am not really a fan. Yes there is a safety issue and yes there are places where it is called for and necessary. But in all honesty I see far too much mayo in our Southern foods. 

You are right about it being a fairly modern development. Its over use can be traced to post WWII cooking, based on when it begins popping up in my family recipes.

There are several running jokes revolving around mayo usage amongst my friends. One is that a sign of a poor cook is a cook that uses a spoon full of mayo for "extra" flavor. The other is that you should never eat something that is mayo driven unless you knew the cooks mother, otherwise just pretend that you're not hungry.

A classic Southern thing is pimento cheese. You can buy it prepared in tubs in the grocery store but that stuff is absolutely abhorrent. I refer to it as cheese flavored mayonnaise. Sadly many cooks make their homemade version in the image of that gack and pimento cheese has developed a bad rap over the last decade or so. For those who still make it, there are many variations, the core being extra sharp cheddar and pimentos. I make mine with no mayo at all and I get nothing but rave reviews.

However, with out a thin schmear of mayo a certain variety of open faced cucumber sandwich would be pointless. Then there are those who opt for a cream cheese thinned with mayo open faced cucumber sandwich. 

And chicken salad wouldn't be the same either.

I believe that the canned milk usage is a refrigeration thing. Cold storage, until recently in the grand scheme of things, was very hard to come by down here. So I can image that it was an innovation that Southerners jumped on quickly.
My grandmother's recipe for mac and cheese calls for condensed milk and more popular than lemon meringue pie is lemon ice box pie (made with sweetened condensed).


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Can I get an amen,
-former history major


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Villas made pimento cheese in that book I reviewed as well as beer cheese. These were the cheeses he commented on preparing in large quantities to use up in a week. I don't recall mayo, but the book went back to the library this AM so I can't check right now. 

Chicken salad with a combo of boiled dressing and mayo is very good. I also make some of this with leftover turkey. 

Phil


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

That's how reasonable people handle differences. Yes, respect all around and to you as well.


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## bluedogz (Oct 11, 2006)

Maybe THAT'S why a trip to the Cracker Barrel always results in a foxtrot directly to the men's room...


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Phatch, have you ever made pimento cheese? Do you want to make pimento cheese? I'll share my recipe if you want to try it. 

It's great for lunch when you're all alone to make a solitary sandwich for one.
It's oh so fine for late night snacks with crackers or fat pretzels.
For entertaining it is served in tiny triangle (no crust of course) form, on both whole wheat and white.
Or piped down celery.
I do mine in one bite choux puffs.
If it is stiff enough you can make a "cheese ball" and roll it in chopped pecans.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Iz,

If you quit teasing and just post the pimento cheese, I'll PM you a killer _pain de campagne_.

BDL


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Alright, let's see if I can do this with something approaching precise measurements. Forgive me if my directions are unclear, it's like trying to describe second nature at this point. And to give credit, this is my much adapted version of my girlfriend's pimento cheese recipe.

PIMENTO CHEESE:

16 ounces of good quality extra sharp or New York extra sharp cheddar cheese 
4 ounce jar of pimentos, drained
Sour cream, the amount will vary based on desired consistency but I always have a fresh 16 ounce container on hand for the recipe and use the leftovers in other stuff.
Olive oil
Dry sherry
A handful, maybe ¼-1/3 cup, of whole or pecan pieces.
Butter and salt
Fresh cracked pepper to taste
 Throw the butter and salt in a skillet over medium heat. Once the butter is melted throw in the pecans and toss until the butter coats the pecans and toss and cook until they begin to smell like toasted pecans. Drain on paper towels. When they are cooled, finely chop them.

 With the finest grater you have (food processor gives too coarse a grate, use the tiny holes on the box grater) shred the cheese into a large bowl. Add the jar of drained pimentos, the chopped butter toasted pecans, about a 1/3 of sour cream and a healthy drizzle of olive oil. Stir with a wooden spoon or heavy rubber spatula. It should still be fairly stiff. Add two good glugs of the sherry and fresh cracked pepper to taste stir. Consistency will depend on application; adjust with sour cream and olive oil.
Everything should come together to form a semi-smooth spread. If you can still make out pieces of grated cheese, it isn't smooth enough. (Easily identifiable pieces of large grated cheese swimming in orangey mayo is grocery store gack)
I tend to make mine just thick enough to pipe into a bite sized choux and it will hold it's shape, which is about where you want it for celery. Stiffer for a cheese ball. You might want a looser consistency for a dip.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

As Isbnso says, this is a great spread. But if you thin it down just a tad (that's why God gave us the sour cream), it's an incredible topping for broccoli, asparagus, and the like.


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## mpeirson (Jan 10, 2008)

_As in:_
_"I got this recipe from Billy's wife. No, not Cindy-Lou, she couldn't cook her way out of a wet paper sack. I got it from Becky-Lee, his first wife, who was the preacher's daughter that ran off and left Billy for that lion tamer from the circus. Which caused Billy to have to switch churches and that's where he met Cindy-Lou, who was so homely she was lucky to even get a divorcee. Well, Becky-Lee served this at the last garden club meeting she hosted before she blew out of town. She knew how much I liked it so she sent it to me on the back of a post card from Tanzania. But don't tell anybody I told you."_

*BRILLANT!!*


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

*>BRILLANT!!<*

Brillant? Brillant?

What? You think she's making that up?

Y'all need to move down here and find out what real backstories are all about.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Biscuits have been done to death in this forum, so let's skip that. Do a search if you want more about that topic. 

So how about sweet potatoes.

I wouldn't call sweet potatoes themselves southern as they're an important food throughout the world. 

And I'm not fond of the stereotypical southern versions of sweet potato pie/souffle. I've never found adding more sweetness to sweet potatoes pleasing. I like them savory, one of my favorites being to peel and slice the sweet potato a little bit thick, season with a cajun style seasoning and pan fry in butter in my cast iron pan. There's a southern influence there I think but it's not southern to my knowledge as I came up with that myself. 

Villas gave a recipe for a sweet potato and ham hash that sounded pretty good. I'd be adding some hot sauce to that I think. I took some general notes and set them aside for when I have leftover unseasoned cooked sweet potato. It also sounds good with some andouille.

I also like sweet potato rolls, a recipe I got from Cook's Illustrated. Very good. Makes a good loaf as well and excellent for toast and ham and turkey sandwiches. No idea if that's southern or not. 

I've heard of soups and a few other things it seems, but none of them are coming to mind with clarity.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Sweet potatoes:
Well there is the way I mentioned above, with butter a hint of brown sugar and walnuts. Then there is one I posted in the catering forum here 
http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/professional-catering-forum/46050-what-your-signature-dish.html
I know ladies that make sweet potato salad akin to traditional potato salad. 
My mother loved to cook them for a snack, much like what you are talking about, but with just butter salt and pepper. 
My mother also makes vegetable soups with sweet potatoes instead of white.
I've seen sweet potato "French fries"


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've seen those too in other places so I'm not sure they're particularly southern.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

One thing that we always had growing up, and (once I got out of the eating out of the delivery bag phase of my life) I still do, is what we call the relish tray. Every meal (except spaghetti and tacos) always had a relish tray. It always had fresh sliced tomato, onion and cucumber but could also include pickled okra and deviled eggs.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I think many cultures have such a thing, but what's on it is what reflects the culture and makes it a cultural dish. 

I don't know that I've ever seen pickled okra. How does pickling okra affect the slime factor of okra? 

Phil


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

I eat okra two ways, cut up and rolled in corn meal and then fried. It was our version of tater tots when we were little, yes we dipped them in ketchup. No slime there.
Neither fried or pickled okra has slime.
I can buy pickled okra (from set your head on fire to mild) at every grocery store in the area. I've never made my own.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Making your own pickled okra is easy, Kiddo. 

Let me know if you want a recipe.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

I'd love a recipe. I've been putting it off until I could plant some myself. I haven't been able to tame the yard past container stage, and then there is the fact that okra is 100 times worse than zucchini when it come to yield. It just keeps going and going and going.

Maybe, I'll just hit the farmer's market after all.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

It's true, it's true. Once okra starts coming it it has to be picked every other day at most.

I'd recommend if you do grow your own that you start with one of the cowhorn types. If they get away from you they stay tender longer.

To test any okra variety, rub the pointy tip with your finger. If it's flexible then the pod is still tender. If not, not.

My personal favorite is Fife Creek Cowhorn. As with any southern heirloom, the backstory is what makes it.

Here's the recipe:

*Hot Pickled Okra*

3 1/2 lb small okra pods
4 cloves garlic, peeled and slightly bruised
2 small hot chilis, halved
3 cups water
3 cups white vinegar
1/3 cup canning salt
2 tsp dill seed

Pack okra firmly into hot jars, leaving 1/4 inch head space. Put a garlic clove and a half chili in each jar.

Combine water, vinegar, salt and dill and bring to a boil. Pour hot liquid over okra, leaving 1/4 inch head space. Remove air bubbles, adjust lids. Process 15 minutes in boiling water bath.

Yields about 4 pints.

Obviously you can affect the heat by upping the amount of chili. If you want it hotter I would still halve them so the vinegar can draw out the capsaicin more quickly.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Bourbon is the best company of sweet potatoes.....Nothing like a leaf lard pie crust filled with bourbon sweet potato pie.


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

BDL-

Are you paying close attention to these lyrical descriptions of food, family, and cooking? Some could be lifted and used in your forthcoming book!

After all, as Tom Lehrer said (sang, actually), if you gather from a lot of sources, it's _research_, not plagarism. :bounce:

Mike


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Ahhh, Mike. I am never forgetting the time Lubinchefski, the greatest mathamatician to ever get calk dust on his coat, is telling me the secret of his success....Plagerize. Do not vaguerize. But please to always be calling it, research.

Tom who?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

No need to plagiarize. I already got the story from Julie Anne -- You remember, she was Martha Claire's sister and went off to Tulane before she went to work for that newspaper up North and wrote all those books.

BDL


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

And Martha Claire is still just beside herself over the things her baby sister put in those books. Well, we always knew Julie Anne was a wild one, what with wearing white shoes whenever she felt like it and with ankle straps no less, bless her heart. Last I heard she was making chicken salad with dark meat in it. Her grandmamma would be so disappointed, God rest her soul.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

Well, this sort of fits in with the earlier comments about Florida being in the south. Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings used to work for newspapers up north, in 1930 or so moved to a place called Cross Creek to run an orange grove. She wrote lots of books. Cross Creek is near Gainseville, I recall. Read her book about it, called "Cross Creek" last summer. Interesting stuff about rural Florida back then, long before the blue hairs and those who worship a cartoon mouse changed the state. 1930s central Florida sure seemed like the South from reading that book.

In keeping with the food theme, there actually were a couple of almost recipes and cooking tips in the book, though I don't recall them at the moment.

mjb.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

izbnso's more recent posts have touched on another food item that has some peculiarly southern twists in its use there.

Nuts, and for simplicity, lets include peanuts as well. 

The nuts and sweet potatos for example. Pecan pie, boiled peanuts though I've never had the opportunity to try that particular southern item. Supposed to be a love or hate kind of thing with the boiled peanuts. Villas gave sources for buying raw peanuts so you could boil your own wherever you happen to be. 

Pecan pie can be good. I need small doses or it gets to be too much for me.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

To kind of square a few circles ..

I make a nice pumpkin pie with bourbon and pecans. I originally got the idea from a recipe in the old two volume Gourmet Cookbook; from back in the day when Gourmet still had good recipes. However, it's long past the time since my (mental) recipe's looked anything like their printed version. There's, I believe, didn't include bourbon.

There's no reason this can't be tweaked from pumpkin to sweet potato. It's basically the same custard, after all.

Out in the west, we're partial to walnuts. If good ones are available at a decent price (bless you TJ), I'll choose walnuts over pecans for any baking project. The nuts can be outstanding mixed, as in walnut - pecan tart. One of the nice things about doing a pecan and/or walnut tart is it's a little easier to keep a handle on the sweetness. The trick is making a thin pie and chasing it with strong coffee. That's French cooking for you. Deep thinking.

Both nuts are important in Mexican cooking too, although you don't see much of anything _en nogado_ or _con nogados _up here in _el Norte_ -- like you do down Old Mexico way. (Gene Autry could sing the heck out of that song.) Actually, Mexican Indpendence day (September 15) is coming up in a few days. We'll either have to go out or I'll have to make _chiles en nogado_ at home. I've got a bottle of Mezcal and an 18 pack of Tecate primed and ready.

BDL


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

cane syrups, sorghum, molasses and corn syrups (dark and light) are part of a stocked Southern pantry. 

There are several chefs in STL that ship in Steens cane syrup, you can find it here if you know where to look, but paying a hefty import cost.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

And what do you do with the different syrups?


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## allie (Jul 21, 2006)

Except for special dinners, when my grandmother made candied yams, we ate sweet potatoes roasted in the oven. They were roasted in their skins. A good sweet potato needs no embellishments, just eat it straight from the oven. I like the skin as well but a lot of people don't. The only time we ever had the souffles and stuff with marshmallows on top was at school for their Thanksgiving dinner. Funny, now that I live with a Hoosier, he's the one who wants marshmallows on his sweet potatoes, but don't mash them up for him.

Boiled peanuts.......oh, I how miss these treats! My kids love them, too! I haven't had a good boiled peanut in years. When we visit my family, it's usually in the spring and the wrong time for fresh green peanuts. Yeah, you can use dried peanuts but they don't compare to boiled green peanuts.

Pecans.....both sets of grandparents had pecan trees. The pecans were used in a lots of desserts or eaten straight out of their shell. 

Cane syrup is a staple in my homemade bbq sauce. I love the flavor it imparts. I also like it mixed with a little sour cream and sopped up with a homemade biscuit. My grandmother taught me to do that and sometimes I just get that craving for home and have to make it myself. That's another product that I buy several bottles of whenever I go back to Georgia.

I can remember going over to neighbor's farms during syrup time. They used horses, mules, or oxen to stir the syrup which was cooked down over a fire. I'd love to take my kids back one day to see that!

I have a bbq sauce that uses a jar of molasses. My dad used it to make some kind of cookies and they'd sometimes use it in baked beans or bbq sauce. I don't recall ever using it, myself, except to make this one particular sauce. I use corn syrup to make some Christmas treats. Off hand, I can't even remember which recipe calls for it but will know when I dig out the special book. My grandmother used to cook down clear Karo to make some kind of syrup for biscuits but I'm not exactly sure what she did.


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## even stephen (Oct 10, 2005)

BDL,
do you have trouble finding pommegranite for your chiles en nogado this time 
of year?....One of my favorite dishes.......Sorghum...mmmmmmmmm......
Georgia Peaches with Biscuits and Sorghum.....grew up on Sorghum syrup....
Seasons almost over for Peaches in Georgia.......had Georgia Bells, and Alberta's this year....in addition to the rest......pretty good year for peaches.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

I'm really not a fan of sweet potato (the roasted with nuts and brown sugar is the only way I like them) and have always considered them virtually interchangeable with pumpkin, which I don't care for either.

We are nuts about nuts. The predilection for pecans is due in large part to their availability. A lot of people have a couple or three pecans trees in their yard, even the city dwellers. I can't remember if it's Georgia or Texas that leads in pecan production, but there are many small pecan companies all over the South.
My mother lives in a tiny town (maybe 13,000 folks in the entire county) and the first home she had there had been built around the turn of the century. It was the city house for D.C. Turnipseed, who was at one time the largest peach distributor in the nation, and quite a character himself. His country house was out Peachburg road. Business was great until one year something went wrong with the rail cars used for shipping and the bulk of his peaches were lost. According to the family he personally dynamited up all the peach trees and replaced them with pecans. Hence, Peachburg road is lined with pecan trees.
There are now several pecan companies in the area and pecan trees run all through town and country. One of those pecan companies is owned by my 5th cousin and his wife. She won a Food Network cake competition (not the decorated kind of cakes) with a pecan bunt cake a few years back.

The ooey-gooey Dark Kar-o pecan pie has never been a favorite of mine. When I was little I would scrape the pecans off the top and eat only the goo and crust. The best pecan pie recipe I have ever made is from *How to Bake* by Nick Malgieri: Southern Pecan Pie with Spice Crust. It isn't gooey in a bad way and is made with bourbon. I highly recommend it. 

Then we have those little pecan pies made in mini muffin cups that absolutely everybody has a recipe for and can even be found in the grocery store bakery section. Although the grocery store variety aren't as good.

Pecans are a must for pralines, absolutely no substitutes. You shouldn't even use pieces, just halves.

Pecans vs. walnuts in divinity can spark a hot debate. I use walnuts.

Great party food: two butter toasted pecan halves with a bleu cheese/cream cheese mixture seasoned with Worcestershire sauce in the middle. 
Spiced or candied pecans packed in pretty tins are common Christmas presents.

Peanuts:

My brother has the allergy so I grew up with out them. My mother used to sneak away from the house to have a RC cola (from a bottle) with salted peanuts in it. She loved green peanuts and boiled peanuts, they just couldn't come in the house.
I could eat them, just never did because they were so lethal to my brother. My first encounter with fresh boiled peanuts (you can get them in a can at the grocery store and can find hot ones in gas stations) was at an Auburn football game. My husband was an assistant athletic director so we had access to the boxes and I was VERY pregnant. So I stayed in the box for easy access to the bathroom and constant air-conditioning. He spent most of the game on peanut runs for me. I must have eaten 10 of 15 pounds of them. I've made them at home, but it has been awhile.

Allie is right, all those syrups are used for sauces, glazes and confections. You don't find corn syrup on the baking aisle here; it's on the syrup aisle. 

From time to time at the grocery store and frequently at farmer's markets you can buy sugar cane, which is just fun to chew on.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

You're undoubtedly right, Isbnso. The southern predeliction for pecans probably comes from availability.

But I prefer them anyway. Something about the oils in walnuts makes them much more likely to turn rancid and bitter, in my experience. So even it recipes that traditionally call for walnuts I'm likely to sub pecans.

And even without the rancidity problems, to me they just taste better.

Boiled peanuts: There is _no _middle ground. You either love 'em or hate 'em. I can't get enough of them, whereas Friend Wife won't let one across her lips.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

in MO we have tiny pecans that are sweet.....black walnuts that go rancid very very quickly, it's hard to crack and pick them, word around town is that you roll over them with your car then proceed to pick the meats out.

I grew up with English walnuts and an almond tree.....nuts are pretty dish specific around here.A new vender at Soulard Farmer's Market is selling boiled peanuts, spicy and plain. Pretty darn tasty, especially with that spicy ginger ale.


it'd be interesting to know the cooking differences between the various syrups:
cane syrup
molasses
sorghum
treacle
white and dark corn syrup
maple

viscosity has gotta come into play especially with the thinner maple, but several of the others have a similar thickness.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Southerners and Cast Iron.

Cast Iron is yet another thing that is not itself intrinsically Southern. However, the South has maintained a more common tradition of cooking in cast iron than other parts of the US. 

For frying and cornbread perhaps more than other things, cast iron is the go-to utensil. 

My mom was not southern but a number of her preferred recipes were. She had plenty of rustic cookware but not much cast iron and so while her cornbread was southern in style she always cooked it in pyrex ovenware. 

Heated cast iron brings out much more toasted corn impact for cornbread.

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I beg to differ. My feeling is that you're confusing "country" with "southern." They already do that enough in the south. 

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Do you think there are any specifically Southern uses of cast iron not commonly seen elsewhere? 

What would you point to help others differentiate that? 

It's been a while since I read the Fanny Farmer cookbook, which I consider a largely country cookbook, but it doesn't use cast iron explicitly like I see Southern cookbooks use it. 

The cornbread is a more southern example I think than just country. While cornbread is cooked outside of the south, it's usually sweeter and cakier, and usually less crusty which the cast iron promotes.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Not really. But I think there are non-southern uses -- like Dutch Babies.

The common use of cast iron all over the country -- including among the "Pennsylvania Dutch." 

I can't point to many cookbooks recommending cast iron except for specific purposes like cornbread and fried chicken, because those aren't my kind of cookbooks. 

The author of one cookbook which was pushed upon me, and which I don't have any more seemed to feel cast iron was fairly ecumenical. 

Honestly, I don't regard either cornbread or fried chicken as particularly southern. They're dishes which fell out of the urban northern mainstream for awhile, but they were certainly everywhere else. 

Perhaps. In my perambulations about this great country, such as they are and it is, I haven't see the great cornbread divide so much. I've certainly had cornbread cooked in cast iron outside the south. How many generations does a family have to live in South-Central before they're not from the south?

Perhaps, when the rest of the country was throwing its old cast iron in favor of newer lighter substitutes like aluminum and stainless steel the south for economic reasons and perhaps with some sense of tradition clung to more of its cast iron than other parts of the country. Perhaps. But not all that long ago, cast iron was one of the dominant materials for cookware throughout the country. 

No offense, but the idea that pancakes weren't baked on cast iron griddles, cornbread not baked in those cute little corn-cob pans north of the Mason Dixon line, or that country-fried steak is southern-fried steak is simply absurd. Then there's aebleskiver irons. Don't tell me aebleskiver aren't American, I was a non-Danish in Solvang and I ate aebleskiver. Fifty-five years later, I took my granddaughter, the talented and lovely Ellie, to the same shop to watch me buy her dad aebleskiver so he could tear off a little bit and let her gum it (Ellie had no teeth at the time) from the pregnant granddaughter of the man who first sold aebleskivers to my mother to give to me -- and she didn't have a Danish accent. 

Seriously -- there's all sorts of cast iron all over the country some of it for specific ethnic cooking that's not at all common in the South and some just for general cooking the way everyone did it.

A few posts ago you limited ethnic influences in "American" cooking to exclude Hispanic and Asian because they didn't enter the mainstream before the middle of the 19th Century. I don't get the rationale behind that rule, and I don't really get the logic behind this one. Your rules seem very ad hoc and arbitrary to me. Not that mine aren't.

BDL


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I agree that cast iron has wide usage. I stated that up front that cast iron itself isn't intrinsically southern. Yet I see it emphasized in a cultural way that it isn't in other places. The cast-iron dutch oven is the state pot of Utah for basically that reason.

Which is not to say that other cultures don't have cultural uses for cast iron, just that there are uses emphasized by a specific culture that other cultures don't emphasize.

Okra is not from the south, can be found in cuisine all the way to Asia, yet it has a particularly southern use in fried okra and in gumbo. 

Peanuts are not from China or Thailand but they are used in Chinese and Thai food in ways not emphasized elsewhere.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

:suprise: I have lost faith in you, Phil. Collard greens are my favorite vegetable. I am used to picking the medium-sized leaves off my plants and cooking them with mustard and sausage. I "discovered" collards at an Ethiopian restaurant where they were cooked with ancho-like peppers.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>just that there are uses emphasized by a specific culture that other cultures don't emphasize.<

Phil, I'd have to say that cast iron, as part of a cultural matrix, is more "country" than "southern." 

I've lived in the Northeast and in the Midwest. Traveled and visited extensively in the West. And people in those areas use their cast iron in precisely the same ways as Southerners.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I was fortunate enough to spend time all over France in the Seventies,, Almost all of The Country Inns that I went to had fireplaces. In the fireplaces was a large cast iron pot with a handle hanging on a hook. They all contained the same type of ingredients cooking for 2 to 5 hours. The aroma was great.This was a cassoulet. So even though it was not the South, nor was it only Southern France, they to used cast iron.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

We used to cook like that in the rural south, Ed. But we give it up once we got stoves and indoor plumbing. :lol:


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Okra.....anyone who has lived in the deep south will find this humorous.

I have a dear friend that owns a restaurant here and grew up in Sacramento/SF.....cooked mainly on the west coast with french chefs and in DC. He and his wife use many techniques, mostly Ca. cuisine.....light fresh seasonal....plenty of veg.

Last week I was at an event and turned off my phone, got home and there were messages asking how to cook okra without it turning "slimey"......
I returned the call and said fry it or pickle it......smothered with tomato/onion/garlic/bacon/cayene has a tendency to be alittle slimed.....he'd been blanching to put on the Piccolo Fritto mixed veg plate. aka light batter fry. I've not laughed that hard in a long long time.


Aebeskivers, oh man, we love them .......raspberry jam and whipped cream!!!

Country and Southern.....interesting discussion. My grandmother was from the VA mountains and grew up in the early 1900's (born 1911) the oldest child of 11 on a small farm....she dropped out of school to help plow the fields with her father when she was very young. Her cooking is country. turnips, chard/kale have always been in her garden, crook neck squash......
New Port News VA is were she's lived for the past 60+ years.....not the south per se. So I'm thinking about her cooking and MO country cooking vs the deep southern food.....TN, MS, LA sorta, Ark sorta, AL........

Frequency comes clearly to mind. I've had the gaul to teach MS women farm owners how to make bisquits. They all had a median age of 50 and had made biscuits every morning for their husbands. 
I started thinking about biscuits and white gravy.....back in 1978 I drove with my brother from Memphis to Salt Lake City for him to start college.....at that time I was curious about biscuits and cream/sausage gravy so along the route would order it at every stop (diners/truck stops etc) it was interesting to find it all along the way.
New Mexico is not really "the south", northern TX has more beef than pork so it's not the typical "south".....still there was biscuits and gravy at each stop.

Cornbread. Well, cornbread is found in most southern bread baskets.....not so much around the country. Grits on a breakfast plate end north of the MO state line. Hot Sauce on the dining room table is a standard condiment in the south, not so much in the "country homes" around here.

Long cooked beans are every where but black eyed peas are southern....field peas with snaps are southern.....
I can remember moving from Rancho Cordova CA to Jacksonville AR in the mid 1960's, asking for peas at the diner in AR and getting a mess of brown weird shapes. I looked at my mom trying to decipher what language these strange people were speaking.....peas were bright green, round and sweet.....trully rude finding out that most vegetables served in schools came out of cans and that children could be physically punished and that if you didn't have the good manners to "mam" and "sir" you were in deep doo doo. Nothing like being 7.5 years old and thrown into a culture shock.

So, BDL.....southern vs country.....lots of overlap but what do you see as the differences. Spice is probably the biggest difference. Ingredient specific? hmmmmm.....
had watermelon rind pickles last night with head cheese......


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## laurieh (Aug 3, 2008)

There is a huge emphasis in the South on using cast iron, especially for frying chicken and making cornbread. Particularly important is using heirloom or hand-me-down cast iron. We feel great pity for those who must buy new cast iron!

My own take on Southern cornbread: It should be fairly dense, not too fluffy, with a slightly coarse texture. If your recipe has equal parts flour & cornmeal, it's not really Southern. And absolutely NO SUGAR. Cornbread should not be sweet. I think it even says in the Bible (maybe in Leviticus?) that sweet cornbread is an abomination, and that any who partake shall be cast into the fiery pits of **** for all eternity.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I have never liked cornbread. I always wondered why it had sugar in it--I don't like it sweet. I guess I've never had the good stuff.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Down here we've got a name for cornbread made with sugar.

We call it "cake."


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## laurieh (Aug 3, 2008)

There has been a lot of discussion of "Southern" vs "country", but in the South, the types of cooking we have been discussing aren't just eaten in rural areas. Even in Nashville, Birmingham, Atlanta (which is rapidly losing its Southern flavor), Charleston and other urban areas, home cooks, cafeterias, casual dining and fine dining restaurants alike dish up traditional Southern or country or soul foods.


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## laurieh (Aug 3, 2008)

Amen to that!


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I like snow more than I like humid heat, but I have got to visit Dixie some time. My one trip to the SE USA was a high school senior class trip to Orlando. Yes, I'm deprived.

On another note, I read that frying is a popular cooking method in the deep south partly because it didn't heat up the house as much as boiling, or using an oven. I wonder how much truth there is to that. Also, I have a friend from Nawlins who said that shrimp and crawfish are eaten a lot because they are cheaper than red meat. I never thought of shrimp as cheap, but I suppose they are a lot more reasonable on the shores of the Gulf than they are here.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

shrimp and crab boils are outside.....no pots in a kitchen, the cayene would sufficate you.

shrimp, crawfish and crab are no cheaper than red meat......especially now.

syrup based pies are pretty southern, pecan and derby come to mind.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Haven't heard of a derby pie. Would you explain further?

Phil


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

"Derby Pie" is a chocolate walnut tart. Some restaurant in Kentucky made a super-duper version, it became associated with the Kentucky Derby, got a name and so on, so forth. The current state of the myth is that these people were not only the first to ever put chocolate, walnuts and crust together in the same place; but actually invented all three of them. And whipped cream too.

You want to be very careful about believing origin stories on something that became popular awhile ago and had magazine articles written. The truth becomes obscured as the magazine supplied myth floods the internet. The one that really chaps my [tush] is the "origin story" of tri-tip and "Santa Maria barbecue" which Sunset put out in the sixties. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

In the case of Derby Pie, the family that owned the restaurant actually trademarked the name. If you want to publish a recipe -- even in a forum like this one -- you have to change the name to something like Kentucky Derby Pie to avoid an infringement. But like I said it's just chocolate walnut tart. Most "authentic" recipes don't even use syrup -- just butter, egg and sugar to hold the chocolate chips and walnuts.

I suppose it's more of a pie if you use a pie rather than a tart shell -- but a lot of these things serve better as tarts. Especially with something as icky sweet as this, it's nice to keep the filling thin.

BDL


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I'm glad to hear that Derby Pie is not meadow muffins.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

origination vs proliferation.

KY derby pie proliferates in KY......it may have originated elsewhere under another name or with a slightly different twist but they consume a whole lot of chocolate nut pie around that area. 

Pecan pie. blankets the south in all it's glory. The recipes are on the back of Karo btls, community cookbooks, dog earred recipe cards. It's pretty scarce in other places.

Okra. fried okra is a southern thing, ditto gumbo and file powder. Try finding file powder in other parts of the US especially in neighborhood grocery stores.
Shoot try finding a restaurant that serves fried okra.

It's not that beignets are new.....beignets have been around in one form or another but the bayou is pretty site specific for beignets. Callas too.


* A few months ago I was poking around in a small Illinois town and started chatting with a 90+ year old german blacksmith. Got a tour of his shop and started talking hog butchering with him.....he has a closet that contains all the makings of hog butchering including ancient sausage recipes. But the piece d' resistance was the massive cast iron pan had to have been 20" across and at least 5" deep....his wife used to fry chicken, his 60 something year old daughters and granddaughters only wanna use non-stick. I've not been that covetous in an awfully long time.....even offered to fry up chicken in lard for him in exchange for the pan. The stories this man told were alittle sad in that he said Everyone butchered back in the day, Everyone had apple butter pots, then the church took over and they did it as a community, then it just gradually went by the wayside and now it's rare to find anyone making apple butter......or butchering for that matter. I hope the pendulum starts swinging back, maybe not as far as it was but at least to the point that it's lost totally.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

From this distance I have a favorite source--

Sunnyland Farms' orange-frosted pecans and turtles are out of this world.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>but in the South, the types of cooking we have been discussing aren't just eaten in rural areas. <

Laurie, I don't think anyone intended implying that these cooking styles were not used in urban areas. 

Indeed, an awful lot of southern cooking can be found in Detroit and Chicago, because of the mass migration of southerners looking for better jobs. Indeed, if you really want genuine "southern" cooking, check out a church social in South Chicago. 

We've been using the word "country" not so much to delinate areas, but to differentiate it from true southern. What?, we've been trying to determine, actually typifies southern cooking from the broader style found on the farms and rural areas of the whole country. 

For instance, I used to work at a hunt club in Iowa. The owners wife cooked in the style most people think of as southern. But it's not. It's just country-style cooking.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>In the case of Derby Pie, the family that owned the restaurant actually trademarked the name. If you want to publish a recipe -- even in a forum like this one -- you have to change the name <

I suspect you're right on this one. I just checked the few Kentucky regional cookbooks in my collection, and it's always listed as some version of chocolate-nut pie. The words "Derby Pie" do not appear in any of them.

My library has a pretty good Kentucky collection, and I'll check further, as my curiousity is aroused. 

Kind of ironic. Everybody knows what Derby Pie is, until you go searching for a recipe.


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

What you describe is, in Southern parlance, 'Sawmill Gravy". Family in Ohio use the term 'cream gravy'...but they never seem to get the same depth of flavor as true Southern sawmill gravy, in my humble opinion.


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## breck44 (Nov 25, 2016)

I was a cook in college due to the generosity of a local hotel

chain . I started as a busboy, became a counter cook and fry cook.

I worked for two restaurants at the same time, as a fry and prep cook.

I was taught the art of carving a round and  prepping a beef tenderloin.

I even made popovers. In my mind I was an amatuer that had a great opportunity.

Other than that I haven't cooked professionally since I was in my twenties.

I have had grits in Indiana and they were ok.

I find home recipes that my mother and grandmother used when they ran a local small

town restaurant rather interesting. Their roast beef recipe was simple and effective.

Flower and brown a pot roast in a greased cast iron pan. After that it was placed on reduced heat

with water and vegetables. As I remember after a couple of hours the roast was ready.

In discussion on grits and cornbread and cooked corn meal, there was one variation

of corn meal that I enjoyed. After cooking the corn meal, it was poured into greased

bread pans. It would be cooled for several hours.

Then the loaf of cooked cornmeal could be sliced like bread, and fried in butter. 

It could be served with jelly or a savory sauce.

Another interesting recipe was the prairie layer cake. It consisted of large pancakes

iced with jelly and stacked 3 to 4 inches high.  Again it was chilled before cutting

into cake slices.

Things have changed a lot since then.

Thanks for listening to the old guy.


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

phatch said:


> So lets focus on grits for a minute. People swear up and down that once you have their grits you'll love them. Everyone else makes them wrong.
> 
> It hasn't proven true for me yet. I have the same problem with polenta. Not that polenta and grits are the same but when they're fresh and hot, they're just bland mush. I find the texture unappealing and the flavor lacking. Even with cheese or topped with stuff.
> 
> ...


I get you don't like grits....but in the end, they are part of a Cook's palette, to be used to enhance other aspects of a dish. They can be quite awesome, given, of course, that they are cooked in a way that adds to a dish. I had some the other day with Pimento cheese, and man the texture and taste was killer.

I'd tend to agree with you on the greens. I've yet to find the person who makes them into something other than a vehicle for Vinegar (but I'm hopeful).


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I like greens, like them a lot.


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## dectra (Nov 2, 2016)

Phatch,

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my reply to your earlier post, wherein you noted "collard greens They've been too bitter for me..."

I can handle other greens such as Swiss Chard and Okra but Collards? Nope....


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I have since that time had good collard greens


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Collards can be tricky.  Fall collards are the best IMO, but year 'round they can be just at good.  I remove the rib from mine as that can give the bitter taste many associate with collards.  I like to mix mustard and dandelion greens with my collards as well.  I sweat off a little mirepoix and the carrot lends a sweetness and lets face it a smoked hock, or turkey wing joint never hurt either and if you don't have those there's always bacon.  I rarely ever add vinegar to mine.


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## fatcook (Apr 25, 2017)

We like a splash of baslamic and a touch of honey, tossed in a skillet with blanched greens and onion, it really helps with the bitter. It does mean no pepper vinegar at the table though.


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## chef brah (Oct 10, 2016)

do none of u watch Sean Brock videos?

didnt see a mention of him

he changed my perspective on southern cooking..something completely new to me


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Chef Brah said:


> do none of u watch Sean Brock videos?
> 
> didnt see a mention of him
> 
> he changed my perspective on southern cooking..something completely new to me


You didn't see a mention of Sean Brock because this thread pre-dates Sean Brock becoming famous for curating southern cuisine. I actually met him once at a bar back in the day when I lived in Charleston, SC for a brief time. He seemed OK, this was back when he only had McCrady's, circa 2007. 


Mike9 said:


> Collards can be tricky. Fall collards are the best IMO, but year 'round they can be just at good. I remove the rib from mine as that can give the bitter taste many associate with collards. I like to mix mustard and dandelion greens with my collards as well. I sweat off a little mirepoix and the carrot lends a sweetness and lets face it a smoked hock, or turkey wing joint never hurt either and if you don't have those there's always bacon. I rarely ever add vinegar to mine.


You should try vinegar sometimes it goes a long way to cutting some of the bitterness that collards can have. Finish with a knob of butter to smooth out the tang, makes the potlikker the best part. I've often used a smoked turkey leg (similar idea) and then picked the meat to add it back to the greens. As you said, bacon (really any cured pork product) works great too. 


phatch said:


> I have since that time had good collard greens


9 years is a long time lol. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

on collards:  I second that best collards seem to come November to January.  As with most greens, the fresher the better.  The best collards I have had were bought from the farmer's truck and still had roots attached.  

on collard prep:  remove the stem and spine.  cut these into 1" long pieces.  throw away any that look 'woody'.  wash well.  roll the leaves tight, make one cut lenghtwise, then make 1/4" cuts. wash well.  prep 1/2 cup chopped onion and 5 or 6 finely chopped garlic cloves.  In a large pot(6 to 8 qt) heat 3 to 4 Tbs extra virgin olive oil.  Add onions, garlic and stem pieces.  saute for about 5 minutes making sure the garlic does not brown.  Add one cup water and one cup chicken stock, bring to a boil.  Add the chopped leaves.  reduce heat and simmer to desired doneness.  add one or two ounces butter and stir so stems and leaves are mixed up.  Salt and pepper to taste.  serve with a dusting of parmesan.

the end result is similar to the broccoli raab I have had up north, though not as bitter.

southern cooking is so diverse, there are 4 or 5 different styles within 100 miles of where I live(Raleigh,NC)


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