# Wholemeal Bread - what tips/techniques do you have?



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

When working with wholemeal (brown) bread flour, what for you are the key tips/techniques that help you produce what you consider to be a pleasing loaf?

I'm looking for insight into everything from tips, techniques, favourite recipes.

Thanks,
Andy.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I find that the recommendations in the very hippy but very well-researched book "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" are great for making bread that rises high using exclusively 100% whole wheat flour. 

To sum some of them up, 

1.Knead well, and carefully. Your main purpose is not to break the gluten strands. So don;t smash or throw the dough, or stretch it quickly. 

2. Keep the top surface intact. When you put to rise, use the part that was on the bottom as you kneaded and turn it up to be the top. Cover, rise. 

3. Don't "punch" down the dough, but press it gently and separate it from the walls of the bowl to deflate, without ever breaking the surface of the dough. 

4. Turn out onto floured board for shaping the loaves, with the top "skin" down - flatten gently and fold it inwards, all around, flap by flap, like a flower, then turn up again so what was the bottom is again the top. Cover with a towel to relax ten minutes. 

5. Shape into loaf again putting the top "skin" on the floured board, flatten gently and roll the back end toiwards you, then halfway through the rolling, fold in the sides and then continue rolling. Again, turn over and put thje "skin" on top. 

If you want a soft bread where butter is involved, you can get an exceptionally high rise if you knead in the cold butter, AFTER having thoroughly kneaded the bread, adding it sliver by sliver. It seems that almost the more you add the higher the rise, contrary to what would happen if you added melted butter. The explanation they give is it "greases the gluten" so the strands slide over each other easier, instead of being absorbed into the flour and making it heavy. 

I've had exceptionally good results with this method, and have made high, light loaves of 100% whole wheat bread.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Siduri.

Other than for a more dense, no-knead bread, I've recently moved away from a pure wholemeal to a blend of 50/50 wholemeal/white bread flour - to improve the opportunity for better gluten development.

I'll try going back to 100% wholemeal again and see how well I can do using your suggested techniques.

Cheers.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Visit The Fresh Loaf for additional advice.

Also I'd recommend using a recipe consisting of 5/6'th's unbleached bread flour mixed with 1/6'th of rye or whole wheat flour.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The mixed flours bread will be lighter.

Siduri's, Laura's Kitchen techniques are well taken.

The newest thing in bread baking -- even more the rage than "no knead" -- is "autolysis." As a practical matter, it's just a 10 to 20 minute rest between mixing and kneading. It allows the dough to hydrate evenly. 

Kneading is a big issue. You don't want to knead too gently or too vigorously. In my experience, this is usually more of a problem either way with women than men. Odd, that. I don't know why. Don't even know if it's real -- could be a Texas Sharpshooter error. Something to ponder. 

In any case, don't think of kneading in terms of "getting your aggressions out," but don't baby the dough either. Just lean into it as you go. Knead to the "windowpane" stage, then knead a dozen turns more. 

Timing the rises and proofs: Use your eyes to see if the bread's risen enough to move on to the next step. Only use the clock to remind you to look.

Don't punch. You want to deflate without losing any of the cell structure or lightness. The new, "hot" technique is the "French fold." Pick up the dough, use its own weight to stretch it into a square. Fold the square into thirds, forming a long, narrow rectangle, like a letter. Turn the dough 90* and fold it in thirds again, forming a sort of cube. 

The suggestions for keeping "surface tension" on the skin of the dough are well taken. I do it a bit differently, just "pulling down" aka "pulling into the center." But I don't think it matters much as long as you keep the skin as tight as you can through the process, and pull it as tight as can be before forming. 

Be as gentle as possible, and retain as much gas as possible when you form your loaves. Forming, even for the pan, is a problem for many bakers. 

Good luck,
BDL


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Following the autolyse, I knead for no more that about 10 seconds by picking up dough ball about 2 feet off of the countertop and allow gravity to stretch [2/3'rds of] it downwards almost for the entire two feet. This procedure I repeat 4 or 5 times and THAT'S IT. No more kneading and I get a nice open crumb that's soft.

Kneading is followed by an approx. 40 min rest period and french fold. The rest period and fold are then repeated another time or two.

If I feel that the dough is too slack, then the rest period will be decreased by 5 or 10 minutes to prevent the gluten from relaxing too much.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks all - a great mixture of the familiar and the new there, lots to work with.

Do you generally expect to achieve sufficient gluten development to pass the windowpane test when using 100% wholemeal/brown flour (note: without adding vitamin C or introducing additional gluten) or do you not apply this measure to wholemeal/brown flour?


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, I do. But...

You're venturing into nuance land and dragging me along.

One has to be tolerant of the dough's limitations; but I almost always expect to get to windowpane. That said, it's been a very long time since I've gone 100% dark whole-wheat.

It's not easy to overknead by hand, especially if you're not too rough, and because you can feel overknead as a toughness which comes after smooth and satiny. I don't worry too much about kneading a long time to keep trying for windowpane. But, even if it doesn't pass windowpane, it's one heck of a satiny ball of dough. 

It's possible my recommendations aren't suitable for the particular sort of bread you're talking about. As I said, it's been a long time. 

If you're interested in a simple "whole wheat" bread (that's actually got a lot of white flour in it), PM me your email, and I'll send you my recipe for walnut-orange wheat bread. 

BDL


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks BDL.


----------



## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

For a totally relaxed n laid back attitude to bread, try googling Paul Hollywood. celeb chef i no, but a traditional taught by his dad. uses freash yeast which in case you didnt know, you can get free at tesco bakery


----------



## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

I like to use the "stretch and fold" or "french fold" Technique where instead of kneading you have 3 folding sessions with a 50 min resting period . Works great for wet doughs 70% or higher.

Stretch and fold is simply stretching it and folding it . Handy thing to use If you don't feel like hand kneading or pulling out your mixer or buying an expensive one.

I usually make four 2 lb loafs a week and my kitchen aid mixer simply cannot handle that much dough and there is no way I'm going to make the investment of a 500$+ mixer for a more specialized mixer.

one advantage I found from regular kneading is during the first fermentation you can stick your dough in the fridge for 2 days . The cold temperature slows down the process and more acid is built up thus more complex flavors.
I once made pizza dough and let it ferment in the fridge for 5 days and it was still good. good way . good way to prep if you want to divide the work on different days so you don't have to be a slave to your own bread.
I've read articles where someone making sourdough let their dough ferment for 2 weeks!

There is a no knead technique where you just incorporate everything and let it sit at room temp for 24 hours must be at least 70 % hydration ( in bakers percentage)

one thing to keep in mind is Wet dough will not stick to another wet object.
so a wet counter top and wet fingers will not stick though this will add more water and change the formula I've never found it extremely damaging to the dough.

you may find that bakers speak their formulas in bakers percentage.
The flour is always 100% and lets say for example water is 70%
if there is 1000g of flour then there is 700g of water.

some recipes ask for milk powder and it's not recommended to use regular milk because it has an enzyme that damages the gluten unless
it has been UHT pasteurized (the milks that don't need refrigeration ) or you scald your own milk over 180 F. ( let it cool so you don't kill your yeast)
Milk 87% water according to my baking book so if that means 13 % of it is what makes the milk powder. so you can replace some the milk powder with regular milk and take into account how much water you should take off and the water you lost after scalding as well.

I like adding Orange juice to my whole wheat loafs. it takes away that slight bitter taste from the whole wheat. Last week I forgot to add it and I could taste notice a difference.

when baking your bread you can have a tray of hot water or a pan of hot water. I like to use a metal pan and put it on a rapid boil and place it in the oven while its preheating (in the bottom rack) This creates steam that will give the bread a stronger crust and a darker colour ( mallard reaction )
spraying your loafs with water ( a mist)every 15 minutes will make your crust even more crunchy. But some may find it too thick so this part is optional or do it only once or twice to your own liking. Makes fabulous toast for breakfast. I love that CRUNCH.

Cooling your loafs are also extremely important , I cool them at least 50 min before slicing. Inside the bread is still cooking so if you cut it too soon it might be a little doughy.

Loaf Pans I highly recommend the big nonstick loaf pans. just wipe it with a little olive oil and the loaf falls right out. Don't use silicone. The loaf doesn't hold a good shape and it also does not get a good colour .9x5 is a good size.

Depending on the Size of your oven only add the max amount that can fit on the middle rack. I once tried baking 8 loafs and the bottom rack quickly got burnt bottoms.

Scoring you loafs is important if you don't want an ugly loaf that looks like it exploded. just a simple line lengthwise is good enough

making a preferment dough before hand adds a whole lot of flavor to your bread. pretty much what you do is you mix flour water and yeast and let it ferment overnight. I like to use a 200% hydration because its easier to incorporate to the final dough afterwards since a 70% would be difficult to incorporate by hand especially if you are making large batches and using the "stretch and fold" where no kneading is required. I incorporate 50% preferment dough.

When I'm mixing my dough personally I like to use 2 wooden chopsticks because
1) avoids sticky fingers
2) easy to clean
but it does require some strength *flex*

autolysis as explained above is also a very good thing to use.
Although true autolysis means you do not add salt while your bread is soaking I found that this made little or no difference to the final product.

There is a fabulous dough calculate in the fresh loaf where someone posted. I use it to tweek my own recipes. Its on excel and it calculates everything for you.
here is a link
Dough Calculator Spreadsheet available | The Fresh Loaf

Sorry if this post is a little messy :lol: probably a heck load of grammatical error .


----------



## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

Some extremely good information being mentioned here. 
Just to add on a point which I saw mentioned; cooling is extremely important for two reasons: 1) to allow steam to carry out the moisture of the very-wet loaf as it leafs the oven, and 2) to allow the starches to begin to retrograde (stale) before slicing.

A loaf is not ready for slicing until 2-4 hours after baking.

Whole wheat flour is suprisingly forgiving. I usually incorporate the tinyest bit of high gluten flour in a 50/50 (with wholewheat) poolish and incorporate that into the dough at about 25% (therefore the mix is about 88% wholewheat). I find it gives me enough strength to get to windowpane, however if not then one may consider adding pure gluten into the mix.

Remember that glutens are strengthened by salt (2%) and by mineralised water.

Suggestions when working with wholewheat.

Keep your dough (a little) wetter/softer than normal
Use mineral water/not tap water
Always add 2% salt
and as BDL and others state; always autolyse the dough for upto 30 minutes.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the tip bughut, I'll check him out .:thumb:

Not at all, it's a great post, very thoughtful and much appreciated.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Cheers Chris - I appreciate the help.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BDL stated <<It's not easy to overknead by hand, especially if you're not too rough, and because you can feel overknead as a toughness which comes after smooth and satiny.>>

Following a 20 minuter autolyse, the dough is kneaded. After my first few (5 or 10) seconds of kneading by stretching (hanging with elongation), I notice the dough becoming tougher and it starts to 'rip'. And I try to halt the kneading just before that stage so the final product stays tender, otherwise I'll get the same open crumb that's tougher all around. :laser:


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for all your unsights kokopuffs - very useful.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

*"...UNsights..." YES, by all means yes!!!*

As to the 'elongation' during kneading: do allow the dough to stretch by at least 12 inches. Any shorter and the dough ends up tough although with an open crumb and so impose some real stretch into the stuff.


----------



## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

Kokopuffs, when you use this technique, do you check doneness by 'window pane'?

Perhaps I'm being somewhat sceptical...


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Naaaaaaaahhhhh. I've never bothered checking for the windowpane. Really, I've never checked for it. During the proofs as long as I see bubbles near the surface larger than 1/2 inch I'm happy. The lower the hydration, the smaller the bubbles. eace:


----------



## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

There are 3 types of of mixes

short mix
improved mix
intensive mix

when you do a window pane (stretching a piece of dough and look through it)
a short mix will have a lot of gluten strands
improved will have relatively less gluten strands
intensive mix when it is clear and you see no strands.

Short mix will have softer dough with more flavor but since the gluten isn't fully developed not as much air is retained thus there is less rise with a smaller volume and you will see larger holes in your loaf. this is often done with wetter breads. When I first started I tried making my white bread a short mix and the flavor was amazing as well with the softness but it makes a lousy sandwich because it's so small. A longer fermentation time is required for this.

improved mix is between short and intensive

intensive mix - the gluten is fully developed so there will be more retained resulting in a better rise ( more volume). the bread will have smaller holes as you are familiar with a regular loaf.

imo, short mixes make better breads if you just want something to munch away on the same day you bake it and intensive mixes are for sandwiches

here is a pretty good read
Baking A Sweet Life Blog Archive San Francisco Baking Institute - Artisan Bread - Day Two!.


----------



## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

Is your dough is wet enough to see bubbles in it?

Perhaps next time you do that, you wouldn't mind doing the windowpane test, and see if the technique holds merit, if it does I'lld be very interested to understand the mechanics of it.

The reason why we normally knead is not only to stretch the glutens, but they need to be unbundled and organised, the constant pressure of a hard hand does that beautifully, i wouldn't think a stretch against gravity would be enough...


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I often grab the dough by both ends and perform a manual stretch since gravity is occasionally too weak to elongate the long bonds standing between the glutinous strands.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Hehe - apologies kokopuffs, not quite as intended.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

When I first extended the 'elongation', the bubbles alias residual air holes in my crumb became smaller and the crumb itself softened up quite a bit. The overall aspect of it was way more suitable as a sandwich bread since smaller holes prevent leakage: neither mustard nor mayonnaise ends up in your hands. But alas, a little bit of lubricant and spice maketh everything nice!!!!!!!!! :smiles:


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

deleted deleted deleted


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

See previous post. Yours however requires reflection on my part for further study and comment as I've had to tough it out for 8 years with lots of failures aka doorstops. But thanks to a dvd from KA it all came together in a flash and since then no loaf that I've made has turned out undesireable. All have been moist, tastey and imbued with quite a good crumb. As I'm a visual person who needs to rely on dvd demonstrations, books simply can't do justice to illustrating breadbaking techniques. :laser:


----------



## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

now that I look at my post I have no idea who I was talking to X_X.

I just saw "window pane" and vomited as much info as I can get from my noggin.
But yea everyone screws up their first time. 

I remember my first loaf. it was a cold day and so the fermentation wasn't even complete and I had no idea you had to "proof" so I stuck it in the oven and I had this dense bread that smelled of yeast. funny thing is the women that gave me the recipe said " wow fresh out of the oven , you can even smell the yeast!" ( in a good way) that killed me inside.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Added to my 6C recipe are 3TBS onion powder, 1/3C sunflower seeds, 1/4C potato flour, and 1/3C Penzey's minced and toasted onions that have been hydrated with 2/3C water. And now the dough's characteristics have totally been altered so therefore I'm onto a new learning experience.

However in the near future I plan to try the standard" kneading technique (knead for several minutes), using KA Unbleached Bread Flour to obtain that 'silky' texture. That's something I've never achieved other that thru using the french fold technique twice or thrice during the proofing.


----------



## mr.pastry (Dec 21, 2009)

Excellent thread! Nice to see everyone sharing so much good and valuable information.

for a 100% whole grain loaf, adding up to 2% (baker's percent) vital wheat gluten will be very helpful, as close to 16% of the whole grain flour is dead weight comprised of the germ, bran, and clears that would usually come off in the milling process of bakers patent flour (regular bread flour). The added gluten helps to "carry" that weight.

The autolyse with whole wheat can easily be more than 30 minutes. Sponge and dough (poolish) is even better - best at least 18 hour sponge. bran is very slow to hydrate. leaving the salt out of the autolyse is best. while salt does strengthen the gluten, it also puts osmotic pressure on the yeast - retarding fermentation, which helps mellow the gluten and make it more extensible.

Now you should be pretty close to the perfect 100% whole grain loaf!


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mr. Pastry, 

Talk about excellent! You made some great comments. Unsurprsing though, you've got a lot of insight.

I found one paragraph in your post particularly interesting. If you don't mind, I'd like to break it up a little and make some comments, and ask some questions too. 

You wrote, Yes. Good point. My feeling is that 20 to 30 minutes is good for a typical whole wheat, or half whole wheat loaf is good -- and under most conditions shading that towards the longer time, ideal. It's comforting to have you reinforce my opinions as I learn more about autolysis.

Another thing I liked about what you had to say was the way you limited your autolysis time to a fairly specific type of loaf. Different loaves, different times; and/or slightly different autolyzing techniques. For instance, according to Reinhart and confirmed by my limited experience, slack doughs are much easier to handle with two or three shorter autolyses with a "French fold" between each one. 

Agreed, but with a big caveat. Preferments make a better loaf, but it's a technique better resrved for advanced beginners. Nice to get the basics of kneading, loaf formation, and developing the rudiments of "touch" before moving on preferments, sourdoughs and the like. 

In the small, 2 loaf quantities we home bakers use, holding the salt doesn't make that much of a difference -- or at least it doesn't for me. More, if the salt is incorporated into the dough by hand kneading, beginning bakers run the risk of not incorporating it evenly. 

It's different working in large quantities with a commercial mixer. 

You're very good on baking chemistry, and I'd appreciate it if you could expand a little on the "osmotic pressure on the yeast" comment. 

BDL


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Someone was talking about windowpanes, and i just wanted to add a comment on that. I tried doing the windowpane the first times i was doing the 100% whole wheat bread. It's useful to get an idea of what dough should FEEL like when it's kneaded enough. I never did it again. It's useful as a gauge. If the dough feels like _this_ under my hands and looks like _this_ it would be making a windowpane now if i tried. But i don't bother now that i have a sense of the feel. 
It's like cooking steak by touch, the first times it's useful to test by touch and then cut into the steak to see what that particular softness indicates in terms of doneness - rare, medium, etc. Then once you "have" it, once your hand "knows" what it feels like, you don;t have to cut the steak, you just feel it.


----------



## mr.pastry (Dec 21, 2009)

Exactly! It is like learning to balance on a bicycle.


----------



## mr.pastry (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks BDL - I'll try to expand:As mentioned later, the bran particles are very slow to hydrate, therefore firstly the approach is to properly hydrate the bran and 'dead-weight' damaged starches etc.. The yeast also begins to ferment, consume some sugars, and 'shorten' the gluten forming proteins. The gluten formed by kneading is less 'bucky' and becomes more extensible. The autolyse also tends to have the effect lessening the time or amount of kneading required to develop the dough. - For this reason a 'rich' dough as well as generally slack dough are easier to handle - and don't get overheated by excessive mixing (in a large quantity machine).

I would concur as noted above. Personally I allow sweet dough and 100% whole wheat autolyse for 1 hour when I am baking at home.

True, but I felt it should be mentioned. Preferments, levain, sours, etc. can get pretty complex, and there all kinds of variations on different themes. Sometimes I will cube up some left-over whole wheat bread, add a little more water, and set and overnight sponge with the old bread mixed in as well. And I occasionally play around with different ideas on sours. Tomorrow I am making some breads with a 10 day levain style (no added yeast) sour fed only with white flour. Smells good so far.

Most traditional bakers will add the salt only in the last minute or 2 of mixing. - mainly when using mechanical equipment. This helps prevent the dough from getting too hot during mixing.

Also as the salt strengthens the proteins, and tightens the gluten the dough resistance can 'feel' developed when it is not.

If you conceptually view a dough as a solution in water, then you have the salt competing for water with the flour, and once in solution creates pressure on the cell membrane of the yeast, which reduces or slows (retards) it's ability to split (duplicate).

It is like the yeast feels to full to eat any more and slows down. Kind of like when we crash in front of the tube after Thanksgiving dinner.

The conversion of complex carbohydrates in to consumable simple sugars is when the effects on the gluten happen. Slow this down and it changes the end result.

I hope it is not too muddy and helps provide you with a greater sense of control, and desire for adventure.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Mr. Pastry stated: <<*If you conceptually view a dough as a solution in water, then you have the salt competing for water with the flour, and once in solution creates pressure on the cell membrane of the yeast, which reduces or slows (retards) it's ability to split (duplicate).

It is like the yeast feels to full to eat any more and slows down. Kind of like when we crash in front of the tube after Thanksgiving dinner.*>>

In my bread Salt is added at the end of the autolyse, immdiately prior to kneading. But for my last loaf I accidentally added the salt at the beginning of the autolyse instead of at the end and the dough was allowed to rest as usual. The subsequent proof-rises seemed much slower; and, the ovenspring, although reduced, was not as tall but still yielded an open crumb. Fearing the proverbial doorstop,I really worried about serving this loaf to my guests; but alas, we all enjoyed my 'mistake' over the course of the whole meal even though the bread seemed a tiny bit denser. It was aptly named as my hybrid ciabatta.

Next time I'll be more attentive as to the timing of the salt addition. I promise!


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the continuing help. 

I am interested to know if generally speaking, contributors alter the degree of hydration when working with percentages that include wholemeal/brown flours.

So if you had a simple white recipe:-

White Strong Bread Flour 100%
Water 60%
Instant Yeast 1%
Salt 2%

.... and then altered the flour so that it became 50% white/50% wholemeal (brown), would you then alter the base percentage of water? Or do you think that something like an extended autolyse process to allow for improved distribution is normally sufficient in itself?


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Additional:-

Using slice/profile below, I'd appreciate observations re. 50/50 white/wholemeal made day before yesterday.

I Generally bake quite hot (230 - 250c) for first ten minutes and reduce to around 180c (fan oven), then go for internal temp of 90C before removing.




Thanks.
Andy.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Overall I prefer my hydration(s) in the 65% range and you might see your crumb open up a little more. Otherwise our bread looks good - a nice tall crown.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Dude, 

Your bread looks pretty good to me. 

The crack on the right side of the picture is probably an artifact of your loaf formation technique. Are you sort of flattening the dough, then rolling a cylinder to form your loaf?

For whatever reason, you're about halfway on the road to something called a "flying crust." That's when there's a big whole right below the top of the crust, that follows the crust's curve. One way to prevent it is to press a little channel down the all the way along the center of the long axis of your loaves with your finger tips after it's almost finished its proof. Just the center, try not to push down the edges at all. Of course, no matter how careful you are you'll have to allow some extra proofing time for it to recover. Besides guarding against flying crust, another result will be a sort of "hear shaped" loaf so characteristic of French style sandwich loaves.

Alternatively it might have something to do with the bread sticking to the pan on one side. In any case, something's going on there.

You can probably get a more open crumb by "punching down" less vigorously. You do want to get a lot of gas out of the dough -- but not all of it. And you certainly want to retain all of its lightness.

The level of "hydration" for a two loaf whole wheat or half whole wheat recipe should be anywhere between however much liquid the dough can hold without getting sticky and clinging to the work bowl; and however little liquid the dough can hold and pick up all the solids. It doesn't sound very scientific, but in practice it's actually a pretty tight range, and will produce consistent and consistently good results.

Honestly, if you're mixing by hand, you've got enough information to measure by hand as well -- and can learn to bake very good bread without a formal measuring device of any sort other than your Mark IV GI eyeball, experience, and the palm of your hand. 

Speaking of experience, Siduri made a good point. There are other ways to check how far along you've gone in the kneading process without "windowpaning." The windowpane is just one test. It's especially valuable for impatient optimisits who tend to overestimate how far along they are. 

Personally I can't tell the difference between a 60% and 65% hydration by looking at a picture on the interwebs, and must defer to those who can. Besides, there are too many other factors which go to the openness of the crumb. Things like handling and ingredients.

Also, while I don't argue with the "salt" at the last minute of kneading school of baking, I don't particularly endorse it for small quantities either. In my modicum of experience baking home quantities (two loaves at a time ish), mixing the salt into the dry ingredients before mixing the liquid doesn't harm the final product at all. The first rise may take longer, but I don't time it by the clock and neither should you. 

If you like we can get into the dissolution, diffusion, distribution, and equilibriation of salt in a semi-solid like a bread dough; but I don't think it's necessary. Holding the salt back allows the yeast to work faster and as a result it will produce more gas, which form bubbles, and the dough will develop some extra "cell" structure. Unfortunately, that's all lost when the dough is kneaded. It's easy enough to bake bread a few times in a couple of weeks and try it both ways for yourself. 

As a personal matter, I don't see enough difference to bother with it myself, nor to rewrite the recipes I write for other people -- something I am doing to reflect the benefits of autolysis. 

BDL


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BDL stated: <<*Personally I can't tell the difference between a 60% and 65% hydration by looking at a picture on the interwebs, and must defer to those who can. Besides, there are too many other factors which go to the openness of the crumb. Things like handling and ingredients.*>>

I can't tell by looking at the photos either. But, Andydude indicated "60%" hydration and so I thought I'd suggest increasing the hydration a bit to achieve perhaps a more open crumb.

Please elaborate more on your term "flying crust". In an earlier post I indicated the ability to see "bubbles in my dough...". Well, actually, it was 'blisters" just underneath the surface of my dough that I observed, especially with increased hydration. Huge blisters the reached 1+ inches in diameter at the base.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

"Flying crust," aka "flying top," is something which occurs during the baking process when the top crust rises (a lot) faster than the bulk of the loaf underneat. A big bubble forms under the crust and leaves a hole -- often running the length of the loaf -- when the bread is sliced.

If you go to the fresh loaf site, The Fresh Loaf | News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts, and search the term, you'll find some discussions.

It happens mostly in breadpan loaves, but happens with handformed as well -- expecially batards. Maybe a little less often with loaves that are shaped by a banneton or the like, or are formed as a boule or miche.

The "predisoposition" usually occurs during the last proofing, when the top part of the bread rises faster than the lower -- because the lower has the weight of the top pressing it down and retarding the rise. One solution is to gently press the center of the dough down (along the long axis of the loaf) near the last part of the final proof. As I said (but misspelled) it forms a characteristic "heart" shaped top -- pretty typical of Euro "sandwich" breads -- and not atypical of sumpermarket loaves, either.

Another solution, more appropriate with free-form loaves, is to let them take part of the proof, then turn them over to finish it. But better, I think, is getting a lot of "surface tension" on the loaf before formation. You control the crust and the crust controls the bread; and, that takes care of that.

I won't try and guess if and how your essentially "no-knead" style of baking performs in terms of flying crust.

BDL


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Mine is more characterized by a blister here and there and not a single, long hollow section running the entire long axis of the loaf.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback kokopuffs & BDL.

I have a bad habit of sabotaging my boule type loaves. I taughten/shape by pulling up consecutive sections of dough up from the bottom towards the centre of the top pinching in the middle, eventually turning the whole over before proofing (no bread tin). Occasionally, while baking, as one side holds its intended shape the other rises a little upwards before the crown is formed. I will try a different technique.

Not withstanding the lack of consistency with shaping (possible overproofing?), it's useful to know there are some merits to where I'm at the moment, and here's why. When you guys talk about values like complex flavours, I have no idea how to turn that into a target when striving for excellence - I can't frame that in such a way I know how to aim for it.

When I make a simple white loaf that's pleasing to me, when I feel it's right, There's a great relationship between the crust and the crumb, and I get a sense of the sunshine that went into the making of it. Fanciful description, but it's the best way I can describe the sense of it. i

I've not got that same relationship yet when working with wholemeal/brown flour. I don't yet find the dough as pleasing to work with, and I don't feel I've hit the equivalent of recognising that 'sunshine taste' moment.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Based on my evaluation and that of my friends/critiques, the flavor of my bread improved greatly when I switched from all purpose flour to a bread flour and I'm certain that there were other factors in the flour besides protein content that contributed to improved flavor.

Have you tried taking some of the overall flour, water, and a pinch of yeast to make a preferment? I've achieved a much better flavor using a preferment that's 8-10 hours old versus one that's 12-15 hours old.


----------



## andydude (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks kokopuffs.

I've done this a couple of times when baking white bread, and found that there has been an intense and undesired 'home brew' kind of quality about the bread when I've done it this way. I know I need to experiment more with this and downsize the amount of yeast I use, together with as you point out, experimenting with my timings.


----------



## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

Perhaps some of the more experienced bakers can tell you a little more information, as most of my approaches have a scientific basis, however the flavours of bread come from:

1) The ingredients.
2) The yeast.
3) The bake.

Think of your basic bread; (as you mentioned) white flour, water, salt and yeast. Apart from using a different flour and the addition of anything else, most of the flavour comes from the yeasts and bake.

Here's the rule; Yeasts not only excrete carbon dioxide, but also alcohols. The SLOWER it ferments, the more complex the flavours of the alcohols in the mix. The quicker it ferments, the harsher the flavour.

SO, the slower you ferment it, the more flavourful it is; this can be done by cooling to fridge temps and leaving for as long as you like. A poolish is flavourful as it fully endorses a well-fed, slow fermentation.

Couple of things to remember:

Don't run out of things to feed your yeast! Add a pinch of sugar (tinyest pinch) or a dribble of honey, and your yeasts will be very happy feeding (although will weaken your glutens slightly), 
...and don't add too much... in terms of percentage anywhere between 0.5% - 4% of the flour weight is fine, half that if slow fermenting (retarding).

I, like most here (I believe) generally produce maximum flavours, by adding a poolish and retarding for as long as possible (I usually aim for overnight).
I will leave my poolish for as long as possible before wild cultures start to acidify the flavours (5-7 days at fridge temps work great for me).

...And the bake;

The MIGHTY brown! The browning reaction generates hundreds of aroma compounds including caramel, vanilla, and even slightly fruity and buttery aromas. Get it as brown as your comfortable with the crust, and you'll enjoy good flavours. That means HOT oven! (I don't allow mine to drop below 250C).


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris,

You got to the heart of a lot of matters. There are a couple of things I'd like to add to, though.

Handling: How you handle the dough has a lot to do with the ultimate texture. 

Holding: You talked about retarding, preferments, all the right things but didn't give it its own separate paragraph. It called me in tears. I can't repeat the entire conversation but as your mutual friend: If you want out of the doghouse,you owe it flowers, dinner at its favorite restaurant (no hot pot joints), and earrings. Minimum.

Speaking of preferments -- Poolish, biga and sour are nice and the more you use them the nicer they seem and the more you use them and so on. But not for every loaf. Some things are better without. But, there's a very interesting formula for sourdough challah on The Fresh Loaf. Have you seen it?

Oven temp: Hot! Hot! Yes if you want crusty, crackly bread. Lower temps for a more tender crust, as for sandwich breads. 

BDL


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

For my 6C loaf, the preferment consists of 1/8th tsp of INSTANT YEAST, 1.3C water mixed into 2 1/4C flour. And yes, at the end of the 8-10 hour preferment there certainly should be a beery odor because that's what beer is, essentially, fermented wheat. A tiny amount of yeast is preferred since it'll minimize the beeriness (CO2and alcohol production) and, I think, optimize starch conversion into sugar and its's those sugars that'll improve the flavor of your bread.


----------



## chris.lawrence (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm sure you're quite right chef.


----------

