# Creamier Vinaigrette



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I'd sometimes like my vinaigrette to be thicker and creamier. I usually use a 2:1 or 3:1 or so ratio of oil to acid (vinegar or lemon juice), add some Dijon mustard to taste (often about 1 - 2 tsp depending on volume), and the result, while not watery, is not as creamy as I'd cometimes like. Any suggestions on how to make the dressing thicker and creamier?

scb


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## saranagon (Oct 23, 2007)

Vinaigrette is not meant to be thick or creamy but of a good smooth consistency ,if you are using a good olive oil make sure you leave your dressing in the fridge for at least 12 hours this will make it thicken naturally ,,I have never tried this but you could try whisking in a couple of spoons of mayo 
enjoy


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## chefinfrance (Dec 16, 2007)

If you like your dressing thick and creamy you should mix your vinegar and mustard then slowly add your oil wisking all the time this makes a emulsion, alternativly use a hand blender.
steve www.masterchefinfrance.com


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

OK, I'll try that. I don't make the vinaigrette in that fashion right now - not slowly adding the oil and whisking all the time.

shel


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I usually use the hand blender and get good results.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I agree with everything Steve says.

ALSO, your vinegar-oil ratio is extremely vinegary -- and vinegar is mostly water. The normal ratio range for _vinaigrette_ is 3 - 5 oil to one vinegar. I understand that some people make dressings with 2 parts mild vinegar and 1 part fruity olive oil to get a flavor balance -- but that's not really a _vinaigrette_. You'll never get "creamy" using that much vinegar. You might consider stronger vinegars such as sherry, and/or a very mild EV olive oil such as most French oils, Bertolli from Italy or Carbonell from Spain.

Something else to think about is using dry mustard powder to facilitate the emulsion rather than Dijon. Dijon and other prepared mustards bring heap plenty vinegar and/or wine and/or _verjus_ to the party.

Adding sour cream, _creme fraiche, _mayonnaise, or what have you is not strictly _vinaigrette_ cricket either. But who cares? They work.

BDL


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

ChefinFrance is quite right. I used to make a sherry vinaigrette at work, for which I would whisk together sherry vinegar, mustard, and S&P, then add slowly the oil while whisking the **** out of it. I had to make large quantities at a time, so I used a mixer with a whip attachment. But I think it would work in smaller quantities using an immersion blender. [Oh, I see Phil just mentioned that. Great minds, etc.] Blend your mustard, vinegar, and seasonings, then blend as you drizzle in the oil. Remember, though, that this is only a temporary emulsion (like love? :lol: ) and it will eventually break.

Another possibility is to add a tiny bit of egg yolk -- the natural emulsifiers in the yolk will help hold the vinaigrette together. There's a recipe for a "Creamy Salad Dressing" that appeared in the _NY Times_ exactly 30 years ago -- includes a teaspoon of egg yolk and a teaspoon of heavy cream to 1/2 cup of oil and 1 tablespoon acid and 2 to 3 teaspoons mustard -- that I have used all that time at home. It never fails. If you like, I will paraphrase the recipe later. (I don't know if something that old still falls under copyright protection, but I suspect so.)


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

There are some very good sounding ideas here. I'll start incorporating them in the next batch of vinaigrette I make.

One thing I like to do is add a dash of good balsamic vinegar to my vinaigrette along with the red wine vinegar. It adds a nice, more rounded flavor to the result. 

shel


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## gunnar (Apr 3, 2008)

Well, between BDL and Suzanne it was all said but i wanted to post anyway. I have just learned some new emulsions and most are using an egg yolk as a binder, they are fairly thick and creamy if your not opposed to raw egg or can get pasteurized ones.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I'm thinking I might try sesame flour as an emulsifier for vinaigrette some time. I'd have to take the (delicious) sesame flavor to mind for what I might put together.


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## cakesbysarah (Apr 7, 2008)

What about using sesame oil and olive oil, mirin or rice wine vinegar, soy sauce, garlic, and ginger?

Yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## chefinfrance (Dec 16, 2007)

Here we have a straight forward question about vinaigrette before we know it we are talking about sesame flour, sesame oil ,rice wine etc etc . You can mix all three with what ever you want but please do NOT call it vinaigrette. By simple definition vinaigrette must contain vinager follow that with oil and maybe mustard but always remember the moment you use a French name for a recipe it is a French dish to this date I have not come accross any recipes using sesame oil or rice wine in French cusine.
steve www.masterchefinfrance.com 
As boring as it may seem to some I still believe you must learn the basics before you can master the ART


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

What about xanthan gum?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The nomenclature has been accepted and broadened for use describing the same techniques for other cuisines. Rather usefully so.

Phil


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## cakesbysarah (Apr 7, 2008)

Rice wine vinegar = Vinegar, yes?
Sesame oil and olive oil = Both oils, yes?

Emulsifiers, salt, pepper, garlic, other flavoring ingredients = present in many vinegarettes, correct? 

If the only "true" vinegarette in the world consisted of red wine vinegar, olive oil or vegetable oil, and salt and pepper, it would truly be a boring place. 

I don't claim to know everything-- however -- the ability to play with variations on basic concepts is what cooking is all about, to me. 

The method would still be the same, with the oil/vinegar/flavoring ingredients in the same proportions, so in my mind, I don't believe I've violated any sacred laws of Frenchness throwing out an idea for a variation.


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

I second xanthan gum, thats how ranch is thickened.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Actually, _ab definito_, tradition and practice, not to mention Escoffier and Pellaprat, a _sauce vinaigrette_ is invariably olive oil and wine vinegar, combined 3:1 with the addition of salt and pepper; and may contain mustard, herbs, olives, capers, anchovies, etc.

To my mind, though, without an emulsifier (and I prefer mustard), it's not _sauce vinaigrette,_ but oil and vinegar.

Yes. Yes. Mais biensur, madame. Oui. C'est vrais. And, ooh la la. The power of French technique is that it is so adaptable to a variety of ingredients and cuisines. The breadth of French cuisine, like all great Imperial cuisines, comes from it's inclusion of and inspiration by an infinite number of sources and resources.

My 2 Euros,
BDL


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I tend to agree with Steve in that, for me, a vinaigrette is a very simple concoction: oil, vinegar, some salt, maybe some pepper, and perhaps some garlic (infused and strained out), and perhaps some mustard. The idea of using flour, eggs, mayonnaise, xanthan gum, and what-all-else just seems out of place in a vinaigrette, and may certainly change the flavor and texture of the mixture. I'm just an old fart and a traditionalist. Flour and xanthan gum! Sheesh!

scb


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

But you yourself said lemon juice :smiles:


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

If we used lemon juice in place of vinegar, shouldn't we call it a "citronette"?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, there you go. Garlic isn't really part of a classic (Escoffier) vinaigrette. According to Pellaprat who actually knew August Escoffier, it's a southern (Midi-Provencal) regional thing. (I can't remember what Augie said himself, and it appears that a certain daughter made off with my copy of Guide Culinaire when she was down here for spring break.) Besides, I think we have you on record as using balsamic vinegar, when only regular wine vinegar is old fart certified. 

Also and FWIW, sesame flour isn't really flour, any more than mustard powder a.k.a. mustard flour is. It's just pulverized sesame without any oil.

Agree on xanthan, guar, locust, etc. They may hold things together but they also make them slimy. Besides, I'm not looking for my vinaigrette to hold together longer than it takes to make and eat a salad. Shelf life is not my middle name.

BDL


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Funny!


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

Much debate on this thread has led me to look at my copy of Larousse Gastronomique. In respect to the copyright rules on this site I have slightly changed the wording.

*Vinaigrette *(check spelling)

A cold sauce or dressing made from vinegar, oil, pepper and salt, to which various flavourings may be added: shallot, onion, herbs, capers, garlic, gherkins, anchovies, hard boiled egg or mustard.

The choice of oil (olive, sunflower walnut and so on) and vinegar is made according to the salad: The vinegar may be replaced by lemon juice or is sometimes flavoured with it. Vinaigrette is also used to dress cold dishes: vegetables, meat and fish in a court bouillon.

It is considered to be a typically French sauce and is often called "French Dressing" in Britain. Chevalier d'Albignac started the fashion in London high society for salads dressed in this way.

So there you have it 

I would say that only way to alter the consistency is through blending or mixing, and adding thickening agents would be corrupting the true definition of vinaigrette.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Then why try and make it something it isn't (ie;thicker and creamier) in the first place????? It is what it is.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Because he wasn't getting actual vinaigrette texture -- his was too watery. This probably resulted from trying to get her preferred taste balance using milder vinegars, and ended in a cockamamie 2:1 ratio. FWIW, highlighting the vinegar is the most common mistakes for home cooks using best ingredients; and, although I hate to make gender distinctions, women in general -- probably as reflexive fat cutting. 

IMO, we can relax a bit on our terms too. 

Is a Caesar dressing a vinaigrette? At bottom, I think it is. It also shows what using emulsifiers like anchovies, mustard, egg and cheese can do to make a really thick, creamy emulsion. Which brings us back to ultra-traditional vinaigrettes -- which may incorporate anchovies and mustard as emulsifiers. 

And what's wrong with that?
BDL


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Shel is not a she. Shel doesn't care too much about calories in vinaigrette-type salad dressing.

A true (the original) Caesar dressing doesn't use anchovies.

shel (XY Chromosome)


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## chefinfrance (Dec 16, 2007)

Just a little French lesson for you non believers, vin means wine, aigre means sour. so sauce vinaigrette is a classic french dressing using sour wine or vinegar. The word you should be using is salad dressing, you can then add whatever you want and be has creative as you want, so if you want to blend squid ink with yaks milk then fine but please do not call it vinaigrette.
steve www.masterchefinfrance.com
call me anything you want but dont call me late for dinner.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

English and most other languages are filled with words from other languages that no longer have the narrow meaning they originally had.

And the problem with just calling something just "salad dressing" in American english is that it most often means a mayonnaise substitute like Miracle Whip. Which is creamy already though a product not to my liking.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If "true" Caesar salad dressing was actually invented by Caesar Cardini, then a true Caesar salad dressing would not contain anchovies, mashed or otherwise. However, it wasn't and it does. And even if it was and it didn't, it's a much poorer salad without those little fishies.

Sorry about the gender confusion, bro. Will edit. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Even Pellaprat, who was one of the founders and principal instructors of Ecole Cordon Bleu, and Escoffier allowed more freedom than you do, Steve. There is discipline, yes; but there's freedom to be had with it. In fact, each is meaningless without the other. Non? I'm so confused.

Not exactly a manicheaist,
BDL


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I can't attempt to be intelligent with pros, but, at what point do you give something another name? You can know for yourself that it's not the purest original thing Moses or Abraham or Buddha or Escoffier had in mind.

Just call it pagan vinaigrette and it will be popular :roll: Kidding, of course, but while I will try to make sure to give credit where credit is due, imagine if Singapore had staunch rules on the Chinese, Malaysian and Indian (and other?) cuisines . . . we might not have Singaporean food that we have now. For me it's one thing to recognize the roots, and that's a great thing, but to be too restrictive on nomenclature might take some fun out of it. "Tofu and noodle stuff that's kind of curry flavored" or "Hartono's Indonesian Stuff with fried chicken" or "John's interpretation of kimchi" can be cumbersome. "Chang's fried rice" might be a safe name. 

I asked for a beating here, but I hope I made some point. To know the original preparation is great, and maybe essential for pros. I also think that there's no harm done making your own twist on a classic, and using a similar name, like "raspberry vinaigrette".


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Everything I've read, over many years, indicates that Cardini was the creator of the Caesar salad. I've never come across anything to the contrary. However, I'm not wedded to the story. What other hustory is there.

I was just yankin' your chain a little about my gender, although, speaking for myself, I like to know who I'm corresponding with.

shel


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

OY, where you have a style of cooking (French) that has been highly respected for a very long time and then a very highly respected French chef comes along and records these methods this sets a format for others to follow. I dont know of any other style of cooking that has been recorded in this way. Escoffier was your man, he was reponsible for updating French cooking methods, organising and categorising them. He was not only a brilliant chef, he was also a talented writer. 

There is nothing wrong with variations, or changing things, this is how most recipes are founded, but, if you do change something that has been categorised and officially named then I suppose you should then call it something different.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Point well made, Bazza. If somebody calls it "balsamic vinaigrette", that's enough explanation on the variation, no?


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## chefinfrance (Dec 16, 2007)

Please dont take this the wrong way but as balsamic is a vinegar of course it can be used in a vinaigrette thats my point,truffle vinegar ,cider vinegar,red wine white wine vinegar,tarragon vinegar etc etc.
Its not that I dont agree with experimenting with ingrediants but if I replace the butter for sesame oil when making hollandaise how can I still call it hollandaise. another example if you choose to put a skoda engine into a Dodge Viper is it still a Dodge Viper.
Steve www.masterchefinfrance.com


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

Can I just say how much I like this site. I would never have thought that "vinaigrette" could spark such an informed and lively debate (not to mention the unexpected exposure of Shel's gender ) The posts on this and other threads are a real measure of the passion and enthusiasm that forum members have for their craft.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

BDL,

Maybe once in my career/life I would have considered it but now.....for many reasons (to many to list) I will not nor am I trying to go "toe to toe" with you (or anyone else) regarding the definition, preparation or execution of a vinaigrette.... traditional or enhanced. Nor would I even challenge the definition of a Caesar Dressing. Although IMHO it would appear to fall more under the spirit of the Mother sauce definition since Mayonnaise (egg/oil emulsion) would be the base. Yet, like you mentioned about a vinaigrette earlier...." Shelf life is not my middle name". BTW that had me rolling!!!!!

I just found it odd to state being a traditionalist and then not actually making a vinaigrette in the first place. Especially since the only reason the proper consistency was not achieved was due to the ratio of oil to vinegar. 

Heck I make these things all the time and to me it's just great in it's simplest form or as a vessel for other flavors. FWIW and unless it was the policy of the operation to do otherwise, I always tred to do my vinaigrettes on a shift basis. Although, there was a time when I was forced to devise another means to keep it more stable or what some could and would call "idiot-proofing" but I was never content with them. Then again I also had bills to pay.  

As I've progressed I have come to believe the only way they should be made is using the proper ratios of base ingredients in small batches, by hand with a balloon whip................... and the rest is all up to taste.:beer:


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

In another thread (http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/recip...naigrette.html) you said, "1) Note the approximate two to one ratio of oil to vinegar. This is standard vinaigrette stuff, although ratios can be adjusted somewhat to compensate for acidity and taste."

Dry mustard seems to work pretty well, although I'm not crazy about the taste of the Coleman's that I've been using. Any sugestions for alternative dry mustard?

shel


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## lollarossa (Feb 22, 2006)

In answer to the OP without entering the derail debate.

I have used egg whites successfully in professional applications for years.


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## yorvo (Jun 11, 2008)

I make a Christmas Salad with a raspberry vinaigrette. I rehydrate dried cranberries, puree, and whisk them in with the dressing. Gives it just a little heft.


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## lollarossa (Feb 22, 2006)

the natural pectin in the cranberries helping out there.


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi Shel,
I will not go into the vinaigrette wording debate but will answer the initial question.

To make an water in oil or W/O emulsion, there is basically 5 ways to make it thicker: 
1. dissolve solids in the water phase (like sugar) make it denser then emulsify the mixture
2. use an oil/fat that will solidify when cooled (increasing fat viscosity). Emulsify warm then cool.
3. increase the viscosity of the water (adding a hydrocolloid i.e. xanthan gum or starch). Emulsify.
4. Emulsify the heck out of the mixture to obtain a very small water droplet particle size in the emulsion. Emulsifiers like the lecithin in egg yolks and mustard will help do that.
5. An optimal combination of all of the above

In this light, it explains why Mi_ra_cle W_hi_p has all of the ingredients mentioned above in optimum levels.
WATER, SOYBEAN OIL, VINEGAR, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, SUGAR, SALT, ENZYME MODIFIED EGG YOLKS, MUSTARD FLOUR, ARTIFICIAL COLOR, POTASSIUM SORBATE AS A PRESERVATIVE, PAPRIKA, SPICE, NATURAL FLAVOR, DRIED GARLIC, BETA CAROTENE (COLOR). CONTAINS: EGG. 

Luc H.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Buy some black mustard seeds from an Indian market, toast them and make your own. Also, Asian markets sometimes carry a selection of mustard powder/flour.

BDL


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Utilizing some of the techniques and suggestions posted in this thread, I made a vinaigrette this evening at a friend's house. It was the best I've made ,,,, thanks for everyone's help.

scb


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## schmoozer (Jan 10, 2010)

I read through this thread a couple of days ago, and the thoughts and ideas expressed by some of the participants (esp BDL and Gunnar) have helped me improve the quality of my vinaigrettes, especially from the perspective of having greater control over the result. Thanks to all ....


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I miss Shel.


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## tdenn (Feb 11, 2014)

I have a related question.  I am a novice.  I own a small restaurant with basic foods.  My wife and I came up with a dressing for our salads that use oil and water with several other non-typical ingredients.  The people in our town love it and come to just buy the dressing.

The question that I have is is how to emulsify the product without changing the flavor.  I am not concerned with the consistency as much as not making it taste different.  I want it to present well and not seperate.

Are there emulsing agents I can purchase that give me the results I am looking for.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

See: http://www.understandingfoodadditives.org/pages/ch2p2-1.htm


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## tdenn (Feb 11, 2014)

Thank you,  I will look.  And I meant to say Oil and Vinegar, not water.


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