# LINE COOKS!!!????



## cowboy (Oct 1, 2013)

How is that culinary schools are graduating out 100's of people a quarter but it seems like I have to go through 100 to get 1.  Sometimes I feel it would be faster to train a green pea than go through all the interviewing!!

Another thing that chaps my hide is when you do hire a new graduate and the first day they want to stand in my kitchen and tell me how to cook but can't list off something as simple as their mother sauces or know what a buerre blanc is!

If I had hair I would probably pull it out!!!!!

Every now and then you do find that one that makes it all worth it.  I just got a guy whose only answer is yes chef...I could tell him to stand on one foot when you cut carrots because it makes them taste better and he would it!

I need 10 more of him!!!


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

One in a hundred sounds about right----Most fresh graduates aren't worth minimum wage----

All theory and no real world experience----

I had three that only worked until their first break and then vanished----

One told me a certain dish couldn't be made without a Bain Marie pan---

Another grabbed my best 14" chefs knife and started bashing it against the back of my carving knife--He said this 'trick' worked to sharpen a knife------If murder was legal I would have slit his throat--


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I don't consider myself the best line cook, but I definitely think I hold my own up in the kitchens I work in. When one of our good cooks leaves, I am genuinely happy for them to move onto better things, but I think now about the monstrous task of finding and training people. I originally thought that in a city as big as Chicago, there would be a deeper talent pool to dig into as opposed to other places, but it just seems like you have to dig through even more people to find that right 1 person.

It is amusing to see a fresh culinary grad walk in like they're the best thing ever, and ask for an outrageous $16/hr to do prep work that they are not even that efficient at. They get absolutely shocked when they are informed that the starting rate is much much lower than that. Of course they walk away, and I am happy as I see nothing but high maintenance babysitting in the future with them.

Even with nice kitchens on their resume, I am still wary of everyone. Ran into a stage that could make encapsulated hollandaise cubes from one of those molecular gastronomy places, but could not make simple hollandaise to save his life. Had another one ask me the difference between white distilled, white balsamic, and champagne vinegar. Had one more ask to borrow my thermometer so he could check to see if his pork chop finally hit 210*. Had one more that staged for a few days at a 3* restaurant and was suddenly a walking expert on food, confirming that everything that everyone else did was definitively wrong on his first day.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

It's always going to be like that. When I was doing movie catering, had a guy come out first day, only to observe, we paid them $100 to stand around and watch. This guy had an impressive pedigree , worked with Wolfgang at Spago, etc. didn't make it till lunch, just disappeared.
The best cooks I had we're a husband and wife from El Salvador, they worked with me for six years and are still there 15 yrs later.


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

In regards to culinary grads, yes I agree, they generally suck terribly. I have only worked with one grad who was worth his weight, the rest were know it all's (who really didn't know anything) and could not get the simplest of tasks completed. *THE WORST GRADS ARE FROM LCB!* I literally want to pull my hair out when one of these kids stage, LCB must remove half of their brain matter before graduating because these kids are simply borderline bread-dead. I would rather pick any dishwasher to get a task done, they'd do it better and faster and not lecture me on how it should be done.

As for finding good line cooks, it is a monstrous task especially in the suburbs. I've been looking for a grill cook for 8 months now. I am not looking for a superstar, just somebody with half an brain, a sack, and the ability to cook a steak correctly. I'm thinking now these people do not exist. Chain line cooks are the only ones applying and they do not have a clue when they stage, look at me like I have 3 heads when I ask them to season a steak. "So like you want salt and pepper on all the steaks or just the one you showed me?" "Can I drop that pork chop (it was an english cut lamb chop BTW) in the fryer when the grill gets busy?" "So ummm, I slice it then rest it?"


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

Jeez.

It's really hard to believe when you read this......

I am a line cook, and I just graduated on the basic degree (different in netherlands I think) but I can do all those things and not because I was taught them AT SCHOOL.

You guys would be happy to hire me if I lived any closer....*sigh*

But indeed, when I see what I had in class that were younger than me oh geez they did not even know how to make a mayo.....


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

All I asked was to listen and learn-----and think----

All three of those are rare-----


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Has anyone thought to hire someone just released from the Brick House?

Texas has a program (VERY popular and productive...a shame that there is only so much funding).

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/divisions/rpd/rpd_substance_abuse.html

One of the conditions of their release is to find and KEEP a job.Most (well...a lot anyway, /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif) were guests of the the state and incarcerated for non violent crimes /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif ..../img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif and have attended meetings every day while locked up.

The offenders are segregated from the main population in dorms...a halfway house if you will and released into a followup program that includes weekly drug screens, daily meetings that last for 5-6 hours and learn how to do basic things like how to be a good employee/father/mother/human.

They must appear in "Drug Court" every other week.

They see the same judge throughout their probation period.

I know most of you have hired ex-cons and been burned and I don't blame you for being hesitant to hire from this pool of prospects.

Just thought it needed to be brought up...IMO.

mimi


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## lagom (Sep 5, 2012)

Soesje said:


> Jeez.
> It's really hard to believe when you read this......
> I am a line cook, and I just graduated on the basic degree (different in netherlands I think) but I can do all those things and not because I was taught them AT SCHOOL.
> You guys would be happy to hire me if I lived any closer....*sigh*
> But indeed, when I see what I had in class that were younger than me oh geez they did not even know how to make a mayo.....


A Dutchman that can make mayo? I thought that was tought in kindergarden there, at least according to every Netherlander I have ever met, and I've met alot.


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

flipflopgirl said:


> Has anyone thought to hire someone just released from the Brick House?
> 
> Texas has a program (VERY popular and productive...a shame that there is only so much funding).
> 
> ...


I hired an ex-offender from a program that finds work for them so long as it was a non-violent offense. Did a fantastic job a dishwasher for 4 months, just didn't show up for work one day. Got arrested the previous night for car theft.


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Completing culinary school gives someone enough knowledge to BEGIN to cook in my experience. If someone else doesn't train them how to apply what they know and how a kitchen really runs, they're not worth much. Why do you feel like you might be better off training someone totally green? Because that is usually what you are getting from a grad.

Now that I'm not running food services or restaurants, and only hire people at a sous chef experience level or higher, I interview very few people and start with a pretty in-depth culinary quiz to start. If they can't make it through the verbal quiz, they don't get a second interview. Saves me a lot of time in the long run. I'm currently studying app programming. If I get proficient enough, I'm going to create an online tool to do the culinary quizzes so I don't even have to talk to them until they prove they have a minimum amount of knowledge.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

LAGOM: LOL!!!!! but unfortunately you're wrong, my friend. these days dutchmen cook from jars and packets and just nuke food... wish it was true ha!

BRANDON: that sounds like a real good plan and I even think you could sell the idea to restaurateurs looking for people.

so unless someone passes the test, not even a job interview.

saves lots of time.... I'd love to see that test of yours though, see if I would pass


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

I'd love to see that test----

As I think back on my best kitchen managers and cooks----the best may have failed a written test----the worst will have passed it just fine---

Does the test include logic, common sense, cool head under pressure, ability to organize and other skills that are every bit as important as the ability to cook?

My best cold prep guy was illiterate in his native language and only knew kitchen English. Will your test work for that?

This is a  "show me, don't tell me." business----


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

linecook854 said:


> I hired an ex-offender from a program that finds work for them so long as it was a non-violent offense. Did a fantastic job a dishwasher for 4 months, just didn't show up for work one day. Got arrested the previous night for car theft.


Perfect example why no one wants to hire from those programs.

Every once in a while I vol to be a "sister" for a halfway house in my area.

Help them with issues that may be a problem when job hunting.

Scrape 2/3 makeup off, conceal tats, stuff like that.

There is a local church that maintains a wardrobe to get them on their feet again.

Hard to even find someone willing to interview these women much less hire and depend on them.

(heavy sigh)

mimi


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

Some people just have limited life skills----

But many ex-cons are worth hiring----I'm in the building trades now----

Many in this line of work have had a brush with the law----and gone on to become good and even great workers.

Judge every man for what he is today----


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

mike, I love you for that comment!


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## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm with mike on this. I don't think a verbal or written test about food knowledge is a good way to judge a potential new hire. I, myself, was passed over one time in this manner and I felt I would have probably been this chefs sous in no time. I went to a job fair at a ski resort and was given a preliminary interview with one of the restaurants head cooks. He looked over my resume, asked me a few questions and said I'd be a good fit for the Italian restaurant. I was sent over to the chef and he asked me a few food knowledge questions that I apparently failed. He told me he was looking for people that had more fine dining knowledge. Then he sent me over to the chef that ran one of the turn and burn places where I got my job. I ended up running that place for a few years as their sous/km. A month into that job, I was told the chef at the French restaurant was looking for one pt guy. They only had 6 employees at the whole place and this was much more higher end than the Italian restaurant. They weren't part of the job fair. The chef asked around and the word around the resort was the best cook at the whole resort was me. They hired me and I ended up filling in for their sous when he needed time off and filling random shifts a few days a week while still working at the turn and burn full time. The chef at the Italian restaurant ended up hiring a bunch of culinary school grads and random dudes with some fine dining experience. Their kitchen ended up really going downhill that year and the chef ended up getting fired. I ended up as the sous full time my last year at the ski resort at the French place and the chef told me he wished he had hired me full time the first year instead of that sous they had for the first two years. I'm glad I didn't end up getting hired at the Italian place because I would have never gotten the job the first year at the French place and most of the cooks at the Italian place ended up leaving after their first year anyway when the chef got fired. Oh and BTW... The French chef never asked me any food knowledge questions. He hired me based on my reputation and experience.


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Mikeswoods said:


> I'd love to see that test----
> 
> As I think back on my best kitchen managers and cooks----the best may have failed a written test----the worst will have passed it just fine---
> 
> ...


Depends on the job you are hiring them for. My test is given verbally, but if they couldn't pass a written one, I wouldn't hire them for my openings because my openings require a lot of writing. I don't need to do a written test though because I usually communicate with them via email several times before they ever make it to a second interview, assuming they pass the culinary test. Same for verbal communication. I couldn't hire someone who wasn't extremely fluent for my positions.

I assume other people have the sense to take from a test what is useful for them. If you can use people who can't communicate in writing well, a verbal test would be a great idea. Same with a person with a language barrier. It would be a good indicator of that person's ability to effectively communicate. Doesn't matter what they know if you can't communicate what you need to them or they can't communicate what they need with any staff they might be managing.

Testing is just a way to weed out the unqualified. Any test given should reflect the ability for the job being interviewed for.


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Vic Cardenas said:


> I'm with mike on this. I don't think a verbal or written test about food knowledge is a good way to judge a potential new hire. I, myself, was passed over one time in this manner and I felt I would have probably been this chefs sous in no time. I went to a job fair at a ski resort and was given a preliminary interview with one of the restaurants head cooks. He looked over my resume, asked me a few questions and said I'd be a good fit for the Italian restaurant. I was sent over to the chef and he asked me a few food knowledge questions that I apparently failed. He told me he was looking for people that had more fine dining knowledge. Then he sent me over to the chef that ran one of the turn and burn places where I got my job. I ended up running that place for a few years as their sous/km. A month into that job, I was told the chef at the French restaurant was looking for one pt guy. They only had 6 employees at the whole place and this was much more higher end than the Italian restaurant. They weren't part of the job fair. The chef asked around and the word around the resort was the best cook at the whole resort was me. They hired me and I ended up filling in for their sous when he needed time off and filling random shifts a few days a week while still working at the turn and burn full time. The chef at the Italian restaurant ended up hiring a bunch of culinary school grads and random dudes with some fine dining experience. Their kitchen ended up really going downhill that year and the chef ended up getting fired. I ended up as the sous full time my last year at the ski resort at the French place and the chef told me he wished he had hired me full time the first year instead of that sous they had for the first two years. I'm glad I didn't end up getting hired at the Italian place because I would have never gotten the job the first year at the French place and most of the cooks at the Italian place ended up leaving after their first year anyway when the chef got fired. Oh and BTW... The French chef never asked me any food knowledge questions. He hired me based on my reputation and experience.


Yes, and anecdotes are always reliable in determining best practices, aren't they?


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## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

Just saying that you might pass over someone like me if all you are basing the interview on is a few questions that may not be relevant at all. Someone like me just might be the best person that ever worked for you. In fact, I'm sure of it. That being said, I'm sure you don't hire solely on this test alone, since you seem like a smart guy... I'm sure you consider many factors. But, there are people out there that hire like this and I think they are dead wrong. Another example I have is, I suspect I wasn't hired for one job because I wasn't familiar with the term PSMO, even though I had broken down a many tenderloin at that point. We just called them tenderloins at that job.

I'm glad I never worked for chefs like that, though. I got better jobs instead.


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## kaiquekuisine (Apr 11, 2013)

Vic Cardenas said:


> Just saying that you might pass over someone like me if all you are basing the interview on is a few questions that may not be relevant at all. Someone like me just might be the best person that ever worked for you. In fact, I'm sure of it. That being said, I'm sure you don't hire solely on this test alone, since you seem like a smart guy... I'm sure you consider many factors. But, there are people out there that hire like this and I think they are dead wrong. Another example I have is, I suspect I wasn't hired for one job because I wasn't familiar with the term PSMO, even though I had broken down a many tenderloin at that point. We just called them tenderloins at that job.
> 
> I'm glad I never worked for chefs like that, though. I got better jobs instead.


I just love it when just because you dont use a term or dont know of said term , people really just disrespect you.

I lived many years in new york so when i came back to brazil people just instantly thought since i didnt know the proper translations to certain culinary terms i didnt know how to perform them.

Basically knew how to do them properly , just didnt know the term , ended up getting me weeded out during a few interviews , its all right though after i got myself some education and updated myself on brazils culinary industry i did a bit better , though i wouldnt accept a job at the few places that rejected me <_<.

I stated on another thread of an experience i had with a 22 year old girl that staged at the restaurant a few days ago

who graduated culinary school worked in some restaurants , went to italy for 3 years , and came back to work as a chef. Yes , she actually stated she was a chef and was looking to hold that title in other restaurants. So we brought her in to stage for 2 days <_< couldnt supreme an orange correctly and when she finally learned how ( yes it took her some time to realize how to do it and she was doing it wrong when the peels and seeds were still attached to the oranges flesh ) she still took about 1 hour for 10 freaking oranges <_<.

In that one hour of prep i had half my prep done and still went to go help her.

The girl was amazingly book smart knew terms , and tactics i have never heard of , but when it came down to breaking down a chicken or getting meat tempertures down flat she was just not very good AT ALL. Our dishwasher during the second day helped her supreme oranges , and well the dishwasher did them alot faster.

Basically i rather judge them on the line because being book smart just wont cut it in the kitchen.


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

And this is why our practice is so vicious at times -to weed out the weak. I move with a sense of urgency and accuracy and I demand that my trainees do the same. If they're not keeping up, or their cuts aren't gonna fly I let them know immediately- when I say fine brunoise I mean 1/16", and not cross chopped. How can expect someone to maintain a station if they can't even keep up with prep? So I'm pretty much straightforward and blunt bordering on rude for stag and new hires until they prove they care about what they're doing. I want people to walk out on me because I'd rather find my out if that person is my '1 in 100' in their first week than to carry them and have them leave for a hotel or corporate in four months.


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

KaiqueKuisine said:


> I just love it when just because you dont use a term or dont know of said term , people really just disrespect you.
> 
> I lived many years in new york so when i came back to brazil people just instantly thought since i didnt know the proper translations to certain culinary terms i didnt know how to perform them.
> 
> ...


 That's what second interviews are for. Test their knowledge first, then make them demonstrate it. Judge their personality even. Call their references. Lots of steps to verify you are hiring the right people. Even then, you might end up with a dud. Some people interview great but just don't live up to the impression they leave.


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## kaiquekuisine (Apr 11, 2013)

Brandon ODell said:


> That's what second interviews are for. Test their knowledge first, then make them demonstrate it. Judge their personality even. Call their references. Lots of steps to verify you are hiring the right people. Even then, you might end up with a dud. Some people interview great but just don't live up to the impression they leave.


I also take into account , that your work requires the chefs to be at a higher level ( reviewing previous posts you have stated ).

The interview may be intense , but its justified.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

What I have always found curious is how so many people will have an outstanding resume that lists all of these wonderful attributes of the applicant

but then when push comes to shove, they aren't much better than what I have now. Which is why I don't take stock in the label of *Sous Chef *when I see it on a resume.


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## twiggsmcgee (Sep 9, 2013)

I'd say hire someone who's been a line cook for 2 years and you'll probably have better luck than with culinary school graduates.


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## twiggsmcgee (Sep 9, 2013)

Also, a chef once told me:  "If you don't have a felon in the kitchen, you don't have a proper kitchen."

I thought that to be humorous and was forced to acknowledge that it's definitely not uncommon.  (Not in my experience anyway)


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## lagom (Sep 5, 2012)

Ive worked with felons, illeagles being paid under the table, and work release guys. I love the guys on work release as they always show up, never call off, and always have transport to and from jail. The most colourful guys I worked with was an ex wwII german army guy, always drunk from he kitchen wine by the end of the night but boy could that old man cook. Sometimes wish I had an entire brigade of him, then again maybe 1 was enough


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## kaiquekuisine (Apr 11, 2013)

the place i work at now has no felons , but we have a waiter ( definetly near his 80s ) who is always dazing XD 

Looks like he gets to work doped , and leaves even worse , but boy can that man work. He carrys more plates ( about 6 in one arm ) more then most of our waitstaff XD.


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## cowboy (Oct 1, 2013)

Well I lost my restaurant and am now back at the country club and I brought one of my cooks with me.  Been a while since I went into a new kitchen and I got interviewed by 3 people at once (Power Play) and now the kitchen is crazy with a new chef in the building.  All the line cooks are judging myself and the guy I brought with me and not even giving him a chance to show his cooking skills....fortunately at the end of the day a kitchen is nothing more but a brigade system and everyone has a job!!  The question is how well do you do your job!!!  Now my first job is to spend the time to evaluate and watch all staff...my least favorite thing to do!!!  Ask my wife...I'm to nice and give to many chances!!

Any advice on how to go into a place as new chef and introduce new procedures to place that is totally complacent with where they are at!!


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## mikeswoods (Jun 14, 2013)

I've only once had to take over as the new 'big boss'-----

I was under a lot of pressure to get things going efficiently----most of the crew welcomed me and my style of organizing---

"Most" is the key word, The first week I had to get rid of one guy, fortunately he was transferred to another job in the same company.

I also had trouble with another worker--Every time I turned my back he would defy my orders---we were short handed so I tolerated him for a month or so.

He quit on his own after many reprimands.

All in all it went well----I have my style---I only ask for a person to be the best they can be---and I provide training and tools so they can grow--

If your changes make sense to the workers,you will be fine.

Just remember,some people are bull headed and will fight you--those can cause trouble and might need to be fired or transferred out of your command.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Be friendly with the new staff, but not friends. Explain the new procedures. Explain the consequences of not following the new procedures. Have a short grace period, in your head, for transgressions. After the grace period, stick to your guns. Make absolutely sure that you are the optimum role model for the new procedures.


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## itswhoiam (Feb 29, 2012)

I know exactly what you mean. I open/run kitchens in airports and we are currently in our opening phase, 4 restaurants open 4 to go. I typically have to hire 12 to 14 line cooks at a time. Add to that the fact that because we are in an airport about 70% of the cook workforce is crossed off my list. They simply can't pass the badging process. I also can't hire anyone with a record. The pickings are super slim. I try to over hire and weed out what I can. I have had some truly terrible experiences dealing with these kids.

To add to that, airports are changing. Gone are the days of the Burger King and the McDonalds, we are now into Celebrity Chef driven restaurants. Two of my restaurants have Nationally recognized Celebrity Chefs at the helm (Rick Bayless and Patricia Yeo) and they don't seem to understand my plight of having to hire less than stellar talent and try to stick to their sometimes incredibly high standards.


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## r6zack (Jul 23, 2012)

alaminute said:


> And this is why our practice is so vicious at times -to weed out the weak. I move with a sense of urgency and accuracy and I demand that my trainees do the same. If they're not keeping up, or their cuts aren't gonna fly I let them know immediately- when I say fine brunoise I mean 1/16", and not cross chopped. How can expect someone to maintain a station if they can't even keep up with prep? So I'm pretty much straightforward and blunt bordering on rude for stag and new hires until they prove they care about what they're doing. I want people to walk out on me because I'd rather find my out if that person is my '1 in 100' in their first week than to carry them and have them leave for a hotel or corporate in four months.


I'd love to work in the kitchen with you.


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## layjo (Oct 12, 1999)

I remember when I first started cooking as an apprentice, The chef told me to make a devinshire cream for the dessert we were plating so I thought about it and I did not know what it was.  He thought I should have already known what it is.  I think sometimes it comes to common sense thinking.

 Training, and respect of each others knowledge, the line cook's respect for the Chef's ideas and styles and utilize their skills to accommodate not overaccomidate.  

I said respectfully "I do not know what it is, but after today i will hope to be able to show someone else how to make it as well"


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## chefleny (Oct 22, 2013)

Having worked as a line cook, sous chef, chef, restaurant manager and restaurant consultant I feel your pain.  I have had better luck training green peas than I have with the shiny new graduate that gets in the weeds just doing prep!  At least with the former dishwasher that has a serious desire, I didn't have to untrain 95% of the culinary school out of them.  It really boils down to the individuals personality and their understanding of what it takes to be successful in this business (eyes open, mouth shut)  I have been able to weed out a lot of the fluff through the interview process, so I ended up with better results...2 out of 100.  Just keep trying to find the great ones, develop the mediocre ones and ignore the ones that you have the BAD feeling about to save yourself some frustration.  You said it, the Culinary schools graduate 100's per year, no need to take the first one to walk through the door


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