# Worth saving these knives?



## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Hi all,

There seems to be a lot of good information on these forums, so I thought I'd explain my situation and see if I could get some opinions from you.

*About me*

I'm a total newbie here, though I've been lurking for the past few months. I just moved out for college, and am starting to put together the things I need for a kitchen. I'm not a chef - I don't even know the right way to hold a knife yet (pinch the blade, not just hold the handle?). But I do like food, even if I have to cook it first.

I'm finding that I like things that are slow / old world / craft / artisan. I bake sourdough bread from scratch every day or two. I like spending hours smoking meats (not that I can in the university dorms). I'm learning how to make espresso, hand tamped, properly ground, etc. I restore vintage cast iron skillets/etc - that's what I'm cooking on now.

In short, I like things that reward you for taking proper care of them. Now that I've moved out, I think I need some proper kitchen knives. And since I inherited a few old beat up knives, I'm thinking about getting into sharpening as a hobby.

*About the knives*





  








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I got a few "LC Germain" knives (made in Japan, despite the name), and one heavy, unmarked knife (the one of the bottom with the wavy machining marks).

I'd also like to fix my mom's Wusthof (not pictured), which was once used by a maid to cut down a tree (!), then "professionally" sharpened such that the belly has a big concave spot that never touches the cutting board.

The LC Germain knives were owned by someone who loved sawing his knives through one of those V sharpener things. They need some serious work, but I thought they would be good knives to practice sharpening on. (I think you can click for bigger pictures - check out the super jagged edge in the 2nd photo!)





  








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The other knives aren't any better. They all seem straight (not bent/warped), but they're sharpened all wobbly and chipped up like this.

As for what I want out of these knives... I usually buy boneless meat, and I don't chop anything harder than broccoli and celery. I might cut semi-frozen chicken breast sometimes, but I'm thinking that maybe I'll sharpen the fat, brown handled knife for heavy work like that, and I'll do a thinner profile on the LC Germain knife for slicing beef, potatoes, carrots, onions etc. I'm not sure that I care about extreme sharpness/performance, but I'd sure love to feel it some day. For know, we're "honing" our knives by rubbing them on the backs of other knives, holding them at some arbitrary angle that seems "about right." I'd really like to graduate from that.

Would I be wasting my time and money buying a $200 stone kit to try to fix knives like this? Should I just go buy some new knives instead? My hope is that I can at least practice on these, and have some fun while I'm at it. But I don't want to waste too much time/money on a lost cause.

As for sharpening kits..Any reason not to buy the chef knives to go "Knife Sharpening Complete 8pc Set?" Would that be appropriate for this knife, and for my mom's Wusthofs? I think the edge pro kits and Gesshin / Chosera sets are out of my budget (I am a college student, after all), but I wouldn't mind practicing sharpening by hand on this entry level stuff to wet my feet in the hobby.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

First I will tell you a secret: all roommates are stupid. Yes, even the ones you like. Dont buy anything nice, exepensive, or requires special care. Cheapo stainless beaters is the way to go.

Top 3 can be made useful with about 2 hours work on stones (or a minute on a belt sander). Your first task is to take out any chips from the v sharpener and even out the bevel. Probably need to take off extra metal to get the heel to catch up. Coarse stones then medium forget finishing on this steel.

Bottom knife is not worth your time trouble or dishing a stone for.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

But the bottom knife is a great belt sander project if you can manage to get the use of one at the school.

To work out the concavity concentrate on removing more metal toward the tip end than the heel, though you will likely need to take that down a bit also for the Wusty, and grind down the sides of that bolster/finger-guard if it has one.

Actually most German knives as they come are quite well suited to cutting timber.

For $200 you can get the really sweet Geshin 3-stone set, I think another $40 gets you the big Pink Brick (extra course) also.  But for less than a hundred you can get 300 or so and 1000 King brand stones off amazon, plenty good enough to start.

Redoing knives like these is a great intro to the world of performance knives.  You will enjoy it and get attached to them.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

To restore these knives I'd probably prioritize an x-coarse stone more than a finisher. I use the Gesshin 220 ($45) to work on chipped knives that have been heavily used then messed up by an electric machine or belt sander. Though completely fixing a recurved belly would take a good deal of time. Then Beston 500 and Bester 1200 finishes off soft cheap stainless. Suehiro Cerax 1k is another medium grit option that can be considered depending on which pricing is better. With the repair work these knives will require, having a flattening solution for the stones will be a necessity.
I don't think you're wasting your money spending the money on stones. Whenever you get some new knives you'll have to have stones then anyways.
You seem like the kind of person that would enjoy taking care of carbon steel knives in the future...


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

On the bottom knife even if you took it to a belt sander to take out that ridiculous grind, it would still be sub par steel.    Also the handles on the top 3 look really 'blocky' and uncomfortable.

As for your wusthof with a dip in the middle of the profile -  wusthofs are thick and stainless and abrasion resistant.  Flattening that out requires moving a lot of abrasion resistant steel.  It's a LOT of work.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Millions is right, these knives are really all power tool jobs.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Another possibility, especially for a college student, is to get some affordable Arkansas stones. I've used this type of approach for German Stainless as well as Japanes VG-10 and American/French carbon steel with success. The ones I use most are the naturalwhetstone Tri-Hone.. with a surgical black for polishing.

http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/catalog/Arkansas_EZ_Hone.htm

http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/productssharpening.htm


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Sure, but my experience is that it doesn't take quite that long with either stainless or carbon. What I'm doing, of course, is agreeing with you but quibbling the details.   But, sure... it all goes a lot faster with power tools.  

One does need to be careful and not too scared of doing enough of the work with the coarse stones. My experience is that many folks have a certain fear of the coarse stone and don't use it enough. Unfortunately that leads to frustration and long periods of time trying to do heavy work with medium and fine stones.

There's always the possibility of ruining a profile (or more) by using a coarse stone... but that can happen even faster with power tools. With care, either power tools or stones (even inexpensive Arks) can do the kind of restoration work the OP is considering.


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Wow! I'm impressed by how many replies I got so quickly! Thanks, everyone! Sorry I've been slow to reply. I already have my first midterm coming.

It's sad to say, but the sharpest knife I have right now is a 3" freebie my girlfriend got from Sam's Club. "Surgical stainless," it says (trash?). If these other knives can get that sharp (probably still a joke to you guys), maybe I'll be happy for now.

On the other hand, I think you guys are right about moving to carbon steel. Maybe I should just grab something entry level like a Tojiro DP Gyuto for my first Japanese knife before mobing up. They're so cheap...

I do still want to fix my mom's knife though. Seems wasteful to get a Gesshin from JKI and have to pay separate shipping. Could I get away with a Naniwa Traditional 220?

Kinda feel like I want to go with the Japanese water stone set rather than oil/Arkansas at this point, but if there's a good reason I'd consider it. That 4-stone kit is definitely inexpensive.. Some of these stones on the second link are really pretty too.

I did request access to the machine shop here at school. Hopefully I'll get access this week. The grinders in there are in really bad shape, but I can ask the shop foreman about replacing them.

edit- here's my cart at CKtG. Definitely over budget, but.. I'll splurge if it's really worth it. I also almost forgot about the recommendation to get King stones from Amazon. Will piece together a cart tomorrow if I can get some time.





  








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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Arks are very slow cutting stones, you can't even consider them for major metal removal, waterstones are the way to go.

When you say grinders do you mean as in grinding wheels?  These are difficult to use at thinning knives, will take a lot longer than belt sanders, and will require a lot of time pulling out the grinding marks on a course waterstone.  I recommend you don't even try doing this job on grinding wheels.

The Tojiro will be a good start for you, though VG-10 is a little difficult to sharpen there are ways of making it easier.  It would be well worth it if you could spend a few dollars more on something like a Yoshihiro in powdered steel.  Spend less on the sharpening kit, a $30-50 combo stone will suite you for now, I still use one because it is what I bought in the beginning and it still works fine enough.  With that savings there are lots of 240 gyutos you could consider, like the Geshin Ikazuchi.

As to your 3", it may look like crap but believe it or no some Chinese knives have very good steel.  They have cheap equivalents of AUS-10 and 440C and the ability to heat treat them en mass reliably well.  I got a little Ever Sharp brand parer as a supermarket giveaway, it was ground like crap and took some work there, but the steel is actually excellent.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Arks are slower than water stones. That's why the coarsest stone in each one of those sets is silico carbide or similar. 

OP, do as your heart directs but if you are really on a student budget there are inexpensive ways to sharpen a knife for cooking. I'd suggest the wider stones in the second link over the 1 inch wide in the first link. After getting a degree and good job there will always be the opportunity to upgrade and become a knife/sharpening geek! What is your Primary goal at this moment?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Note that the Tojiro is stainless

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Masahiro-Ja...e-Carbon-Steel-Gyuto-Knife-Seki-/261534378032

You could consider something like that for a monosteel carbon knife. The metal will abrade more easily than that of the Tojiro. Though, keep it away from people who will be careless with it >.<

The angle guide cards are somewhat of an iffy buy. You'll probably fold or cut at the line to expose the 15/20 degree angle, and the card material is not water resistant. Meaning, don't bother propping it onto a wetted stone.

30-60x loupes can be had for under $5 bucks on Amazon.

Sharpie you should be able to get without difficulty, and you can use cork to deburr.

Note that the 140 grit diamond plate in that 8 pc set says it's not dead flat which could come into play if you ever want to use the diamond plate for reprofiling/heavy metal removal

I might suggest spending an extra $15 for the Gesshin 220 grit stone. It's 2.5x the thickness of the Naniwa traditional. The 220 grit stone will definitely come into play to take out the grind marks from previously crappy V sharpener or similar sharpening disasters. I use mine on a monthly basis on beat up cheap stainless knives (without fingerguard bolsters though, thankfully), followed up with something in the 400-1000 grit range. It looks like you're still wanting to salvage the existing knives, status on having a belt sander to use is still uncertain?...and if you ever get roped in to repairing other people's knives in the future it's a very useful stone to start with.

You could get the JKI Diamond flattening plate and Gesshin 220 to get free shipping on one end, and Beston + Bester (+maybe Suehiro) + Stone Holder on the other.

Keep in mind though that the rest of the stone cost is partly dependent on what you will be sharpening in the near future. For everything you currently have, you won't really gain anything going up to a fine stone, and you won't want to use a fine stone until you sharpening technique is a lot more consistent anyways. So it's $45-50 now that can be saved for at least a few months or used in a different way

Or, depending on how much you are in a rush to get the stones or not, you could consider this http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055 for the medium and fine stones about $10 cheaper after shipping than from where you are buying.


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Guys, I can't thank you enough for the detailed advice.

Belt sander might be a no-go, at least for a few months until I get established in the shop. Also, I like the idea of being able to take my sharpening stuff with me, so I think a low grit stone would be a good purchase.

When it comes to spending, I'd say overall cost is less important to me than overall value. I can't spend $1000 today, but I'm definitely willing to spend extra money for a higher quality product that will last longer / work better / make me happier / probably save me money in the long run. That Gesshin 220 is a good example - I didn't realize that it was so much bigger, and that diamond plate at JKI sounds like it's worth the extra cost as well. Coupled with the free shipping, I think that's definitely a win.

As for goals, well.. assuming you're talking about life/school (and not my knife collection).. Let's just say that I'm not THAT broke, so I'm okay with spending a few hundred here and there - and a little time as well. I'm pretty confident that I have all my ducks in a row for after graduation.

If you were talking about knives, then.. I have absolutely no idea what my goals are. I want to learn to sharpen well, and I want some nice knives some day. Maybe I'll buy my first knife next year. That gives me time to do more research. And in the mean time, I figure I can practice on these freebies and maybe enjoy some better performance from them. My hope is that I'll be ready for a good knife after a year of practice sharpening a few knives a few times.

But yeah, school is first priority. Which is why I've been so slow to reply here.

Anyway, here's the present shopping list (no more knife):
JKI
$45 Gesshin 220 Grit Stone
$65 Diamond Flattening Plate
$110 total, free shipping (tax?)

CKTG
$46 Beston 500x
$45 Suehiro Cerax 1k (or $49 Bester 1200)
$50 Suehiro Rika 5k
$30 Stone holder (is this that much better than, say, a terry cloth under the stone?)
$171-$176 total (+tax)

~$281 grand total (+tax)

Or..
$180 Ikazuchi 210mm gyuto (or other knife? I really need to hold a wa handle)
+ ?? stones (just a couple?)
Also around $300 total, but doesn't let me fix existing knives - like my mom's. Also, I don't feel ready to talk about / purchase a knife yet. The previously mentioned Masahiro is certainly affordable..

Or..
naturalwhetstone.com
$53 8x3x1 Dual 400/1200 Grit Arkansas (but no silicon carbide) incl $3 oil bottle.
or $47 10x1.625x.5 Tri-Hone (Silicon-Carbide + med + fine + oil) (not the same fine as black?)
Still only $100 even if I bought both. Leaves money for knives. Also, I really don't want to use oil.

Why is the silicon carbide (Or sometimes aluminum oxide) only available in that small size? Actually curious now - how would that differ from 220 grit aluminum oxide wet/dry sandpaper? I've actually been wondering if I can do this on sandpaper - I'm assuming I'd blow through a few sheets in no time. But I've got up to 10000 grit paper (feels like a rubber sheet but yields crystal clear optics).

Okay, I feel like my writing abilities are rapidly declinng as I get more and more sleepy, but I really wanted to post something since I'm enjoying putting shopping lists together. Will check in again soon.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Just a quick one here Guy, forget about silicon carbide stones, especially forget about cheap Arks.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Rick Alan said:


> Arks are very slow cutting stones, you can't even consider them for major metal removal, waterstones are the way to go...............


Any stone finer than a fine India stone is meant for one thing only, polishing. And Arkansas stones are NOT meant for cutting, only for polishing to various degrees. One step beyond a translucent Arkansas is the Surgical Stone which is usually dyed black. It's actually a super super duper finely grained Arkansas stone that will cost your first born in order to acquire.

And Arkansas is therefore not meant for rebeveling nor for chip removal. Those are jobs that are left best for carbide and India stones. They work their magic well on the European blades that have been around for over the past several decades until the Japanese stainlesses made their appearance..


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Fwiw I paid over $150 for a combination bench stone: a soft arkansas and a black surgical stone measuring over 11 inches by 3 inches.  They're not cheap if well made and from a reputable source.  An they're both meant to have the edge dragged in reverse over the surface instead of having the edge pushed into it in order to acquire a finely honed edge.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

GuySmiley, not intending to give you more homework but you may find it instructive to read a bit about sharpening in the woodworking sites. Chisels need to be as sharp or sharper than kitchen knives. Many woodworkers use oil stones and even sheet abrasives, as you suggested. Similar with straight razors for shaving. There are many ways to get to the same end.

Speaking here just about the knives you are thinking about refurbishing, not Japanese knives when the intent is to maintain strictly Japanese ways and means.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

On thinning- you can use sandpaper, but edge trailing strokes only (as opposed to push/pull). For the heavy lifting you'll be doing you would probably be starting somewhere in the 80-240 grit range and staying in the hundreds (leave that 10k grit for another occasion). I think @Benuser might use coarse sandpaper for thinning knives or relieving bolsters on knives on a semi-regular basis- I've only messed with it for blade refinishing.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Actually most woodworkers use waterstones these days, aluminum oxide and diamond varieties, along with rotary laps, sharpening jigs, etc.  They tend to spend more than kitchen jockeys on their sharpening tools.  Aside from pristine pricey Arks (for some) these is absolutely no good reason to use oil stones for kitchen knives, unless that is just what you have on hand at the moment.

Again, the restore project is not going to be at all practical without power tools, and those heavy Germans will run through more belts and/or sandpaper than their worth.  It took me 10 hours work easy, probably more like 15, doing just one 9" chefs of similar girth with a bench grinder and course stone.  You won't wear out a grinding wheel on this, but they are very difficult to use here, and dangerous for the inexperienced.

Your rubberized/mylar abrasive sheet can be used for stopping, but those sheets are very expensive and wear rather quick, but if the supply is free go right ahead.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Rick, would the fact that the OP's knives are Japanese made in the German style possibly mean that they are thinner than modern German knives? I sharpen cheap stamped stainless (but not super thick stuff) using waterstones without too much time if it's just chip repair/undoing electric sharpener grind marks/very minor reprofiling. Particularly, the 2nd and 3rd knives looked manageable, though I would probably not bother with the 4th without power tools


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

That looks like 3+mm stock on the knife second from the top, and I'll bet there is very little taper there.  Even the second from bottom would be no picnic I'd bet.  The bottom one is probably 2.5mm stock, unlikely a taper at all aside from the bit at the edge, similar to the one I spent 10-15 hours on.  The ham slicer even looks unattractively thick. From what I'm seeing I have to say hands down the whole bunch, unless Guy can reveal a legitimate defense.


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Whew. Busy week. Already had my first midterm of the semester. Haven't done any more shopping, but I did take some measurements of the one chef knife that might be worth saving.

*Weight *(175g)*:*





  








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*Spine (2.3mm to 0.8mm tip):*





  








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*Edge:*

At the 1cm away from the edge, the metal is 1.0mm thick.

Right before the bevel (is that the right term for the first angle of the knife edge?), the metal is 0.55mm thick +/- 0.1mm:





  








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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

^

@5mm 0.75mm +/- 0.05mm, so slightly thicker there, and much thicker above the edge.

Blade length from heel to tip is about 205mm, btw


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Bonus photo - concavity to be repaired:





  








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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Guess what the roommates did today...

I'm just going to buy some knives (well, probably only one for now) and tell everyone that they're strictly off-limits.

Is a $200 budget (+50% stretch, max) for a knife + maintenance equipment going to be sufficient?  I'm still interested in fixing my mom's Wusthof, but I think I'll worry about that when I go home for Thanksgiving.

I'll have to think about what I want in a knife. I don't even know what handle I want since I've never seen/felt a wa handle before.  I don't know if I want stainless or carbon steel.

Probably the only thing do I know is that the 205mm knife I have seems to be a good length, and only occasionally do I wish I had something longer.  210-240mm should be plenty long for me.

I'm mainly going to be cutting potatoes, carrots, garlic, onion, broccoli, beef (boneless)..  I cut semi-frozen chicken breast often, but I can relegate that to my other knives..

Sharpness is probably less important that newb-proofing for now, since I have accidentally scrubbed the blade across the cutting board a few times too many (it makes a really angry sound when I do that).

Fujiwara FKH + a couple stones?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Photos are deceiving, actually that knife was probably up to Victorinox standards (and smaller than I thought) when new, it would make a "relatively" easy fixerupper and nice little utility/beater.  A dremel with a cut-off wheel would do to thin the edge quickly.  Make sure the direction of spin will take you away from the edge.  Then I would have you "carefully" try your hand at thinning the the tip area on the grinder, the last 2-3 inches depending on your ambition.  One cavete to Benusers specs, 0.2mm might be just a hair thin for the temper on this knife, try 0.3 first if you go there.

The Masahiro Foddy recommended and some King stones would have you well under budget.  It's a good place to start.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

So what, exactly, did the roommates do today?????

I'll let the others advise you on how to spend your money but will suggest one thing: protect your knive with more than threats. Keep them out of sight and out of mind. I have a couple of knives I prefer the family not use so I keep them in knife guards, a knife tote and put away until I take them out for me to use. I think my investment in guards and a cheap tote was about $25, but the value is priceless.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

(if still in budget) Might also be worth getting something that looks a little different than everything else used in yall's kitchen space to help ensure differentiation/lack of confusion


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

GuySmily said:


> Sharpness is probably less important that newb-proofing for now, since I have accidentally scrubbed the blade across the cutting board a few times too many (it makes a really angry sound when I do that).
> 
> Fujiwara FKH + a couple stones?


Yeah. Or you can go Tojiro, based on preference or where you find the prices are between the two. I think the Tojiro is going to run a little thicker than the Fujiwara, but it's still an enjoyable knife to use (and significantly better with a tiny bit of thinning).

Scrubbing? Like using the blade to scrape food across the board? Don't do that :3 not good for the stability and alignment of the edges.

Since it seems like you've still got candidates for fixing up, I think it's worth the step up in stones. I think the Beston/Bester would either cut faster/be more dish resistant than the King. Make sure you've got a flattening solution too.


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Hi guys,

Sorry I've been gone so long. Midterms, papers, club duties.. busy week!

Roomies used a few of my knives to break into their room after they locked themselves out. I thought the Germain chef knife was ruined, but that's the one knife they didn't bend up. Still, I kinda want to get that Fujiwara FKH. I think I'd prefer it over the Tojiro DP because I want to try to get used to carbon steel. I hope the FKH isn't unbearably stinky like a few posters have made them out to be.

Right now, the shopping list is..

CKTG

$46 Beston 500x
$35 Suehiro Stone Holder 
$82 Fujiwara Carbon Gyuto 240mm (FKH)

($163 total)

JKI

$45 Gesshin 220

$65 Diamond flattening plate

($110 total)

toolsfromjapan.com (big savings here - thanks for the tip!)

¥5800 Suehiro Cerax 1000 + Rika 5000 combo -> There's a checkbox to get individual stones at the same price - any reason not to?

¥2080 shipping

(¥7880 / $77 total)

Grand total: $350 (+ tax?)

$50 over my stretch budget, but I did just come up on $300... With an investment this size I hope I don't end up hating sharpening, lol...

Videos like this make me feel like I'm not worthy of high end equipment, but I'm watching as many knife skills / sharpening / Japanese knife videos as I can...






(I did see him poke his hand - looks like the glove saved his skin)


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

foody518 said:


> Scrubbing? Like using the blade to scrape food across the board? Don't do that :3 not good for the stability and alignment of the edges.


Sort of. I don't do it to scrape the food away, but sometimes after a cut I think I twist the knife as if I'm using the edge to gauge out the cutting board. It's not an intentional action - by brain makes my hand do it on its own, like bad muscle memory or something. Maybe it's because I have to use so much force to cut everything. But it definitely feels like an action that would roll the whole edge over.

I'm about to go make dinner, so I'll try to pay attention and see if I do it again.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You're close, it is a form of bad memory retention.  Like many competitive athletes will tell you, the body does whatever the predominant image in mind suggests it should to.  Start seeing what you really want the knife to do, instead of what it always has done, and it will come to pass.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

GuySmily said:


> Sort of. I don't do it to scrape the food away, but sometimes after a cut I think I twist the knife as if I'm using the edge to gauge out the cutting board. It's not an intentional action - by brain makes my hand do it on its own, like bad muscle memory or something. Maybe it's because I have to use so much force to cut everything. But it definitely feels like an action that would roll the whole edge over.
> 
> I'm about to go make dinner, so I'll try to pay attention and see if I do it again.


A good way to gain control over your hand, rather than having your brain autonomously control it, is to slow down. Sometimes slowing WAY down helps. You can build speed with your new form later.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

"Videos like this make me feel like I'm not worthy of high end equipment, but I'm watching as many knife skills / sharpening / Japanese knife videos as I can...






That's Rick going half speed actually, check this one:






There's another one in the series where he does a neater job, a real consistant dice, just as fast.

He is a master of the Mental Image. Eh, there's a little more to it, like paying attention to and eliminating unwanted tension where you find it, proper grip, etc. You have the greats to emulate right there on youtube and it will come in a matter of course if you want it.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

GuySmily said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Sorry I've been gone so long. Midterms, papers, club duties.. busy week!
> 
> ...


Go for the 2 individual stones for ~the same price.

Try and get a hold of something that you can work on without having to drop to the 220 grit stone first starting out (so you don't hate sharpening right up front). The noise and feedback from 220 grits are by and large unpleasant and I don't know if there's much of a way of getting around that. The feel of even the Beston 500x is lightyears better than the 220 grit stone


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Cutting things for dinner went a lot better this time.  I think just actively thinking and being aware of the issue is already helping.

I placed my orders from CKTG and toolsfromjapan tonight!  Though I guess I may not be able to start sharpening for quite some time.  JKI ran out of diamond flattening plates, so that order will have to wait.  It sounds like toolsfromjapan orders can take many weeks to arrive as well.  So all I'm going to be receiving any time soon is the Fujiwara and the 500x + holder - looks like 4-5 days from WI to CA.

Hopefully I don't need the other stones right away. Even straight out of the box I'm sure the Fujiwara will be way sharper than my LC Germain.  It takes a dangerous amount of force just to cut through onions with that thing.

I'm really excited for all this stuff to arrive so I can try it out!  I'm especially curious to feel the difference between stones since you all keep talking about how different they are.  Thank you guys for all the help!  I'll be sure to keep you updated on everything.

And huge thanks to my mom for picking up the tab for my birthday!  I am one lucky boy.

Now I guess I can start thinking about patinas.  I'm really not a fan of all the forced patinas I see around here, but it sounds like this knife might need it due to its highly reactive, low purity (smelly sulfur) SK4 steel.  I think I have an idea of what I want to do!


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Congrats and happy birthday!
Shouldn't need to go down to the 500 grit for Fujiwara anytime soon. And sounds like experiencing a thinner ground knife is exactly what you need based on your comment about cutting through onions


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Thanks!

The knife and first stone arrived today. CKTG packed everything nicely. I just read a post about a Shigefusa (rare/amazing knife?) arriving from Japan with a broken off tip, but I had no issues at all with my shipment from CKTG.





  








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Not pictured is the anti-corrosion paper that the blade was wrapped in. I'm planning on keeping the knife wrapped in that paper and stored in its box in my room.





  








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Pretty kanji. Strange diagonal line going across the side of the knife that won't wipe off. It's not a reflection - it's like the metal is a different shade of silver. Even the kanji is a lighter shade of black there.





  








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Handle feels fine. It's a bit lopsided at the end here. Don't know if that's on purpose. Can't tell the difference anyway.





  








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Very sharp choil - it even has some small burrs from when they finished the sides of the blade. Spine isn't so bad. I'll round them both down eventually.

Have some pot roast going in the oven right now. Will let you know how it goes. It's my first time using a really sharp knife, so I'll try to go slowly and carefully.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Congratulations, and I appreciate you wanting to keep the knife safe but you really don't need to keep it wrapped in that paper.

The minor FF issues you pointed out are typical for a knife in that price range.  The bolster and rivets look nice and flush though.

I don't think the Fujiwara comes screaming sharp out of the box, let us know how she cuts anyways.  Then when the rest of your stones come in give her an edge (maybe even try thinning it a bit) and then let us know how you did.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

In which case, in my limited experience, my favorite patina inducer is mango, followed by the oil of lemon peel, doing some fine slicing of both, in which case you might want to sharpen first. ;-)~


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Some other posts made it seem like my onions were going to turn into a pile of black goop and my whole apartment building was going to smell of sulfur. I had no problems with this knife whatsoever, but I can see it being a problem if you took this knife out of the box and had to cut 100 onions at work.

First thing I cut was carrots. They left a beautiful deep purple color on the knife. Wish I had taken photos. Another post somewhere called it "grape juice purple" and I think that description works pretty well here.

After that I cut onions. I let one slice sit on the knife for a little while, and it left a few grayish rings, but it wasn't that bad.

Last thing I cut was my roast. I saw it leaving some nice color on the knife, so I rubbed a slice of meat all over to help kick start the patina.





  








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Onion rings still after meat slicing:





  








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Dots are not as pretty as the sunset splotches, but it certainly doesn't feel like pitting:





  








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----------------

This is definitely the sharpest knife I've never used in my life. There's probably more wrong with my technique than the knife. That said, this definitely doesn't seem as sharp as some videos I've seen. Here are my first attempts at slicing paper. It was definitely not easy to get a cut started, but still, I don't own anything else that can do this.











I will pick up some mango and lemon to play with. Maybe I should video that.

Some day I want to try a dark black coffee finish, then thin the edge and do a natural patina on the kireha / blade road (if I'm getting my terms right). I think the two tone might look nice. I haven't seen any deep black patinas like this on kitchen knives:





  








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source: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1196022-Coffee-forced-patina


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Oops, my post went to moderators again for having links and stuff. I'm sure it'll be approved soon.

But yeah, I'm really happy with the handle feel. The rivets are almost perfectly flush - I can barely feel them. The left piece of the handle comes down ever so slightly past the tang, and I can kinda get my nail between the right piece and the tang, but it's really nothing I'm worried about at all, especially at this price. If I had paid $250+, I would definitely expect the handle to be completely smooth, but I definitely can't complain when I didn't even pay 1/3 that.

Anyway, I soaked the Beston 500 and tried my hand at sharpening the LC Germain, not with the goal of making the knife sharp but just to see what sharpening feels like. The stone soaked for two hours (no more bubbles after 45 minutes) but it felt like it dried pretty quickly. I should have some liquid mud sloshing around the top of the stone at all times, right? I feel like I had to drip water on the stone pretty frequently, and it seemed like I never had much slurry/swarf buildup, though I could see the dark color telling me things were happening.

I tried the sharpie trick, and it seemed like I was doing very well sharpening the existing edge without running past the edge of the.. edge (the shinogi line?).

I built up a burr a couple times on each side, then went for stropping motions on the stone. Not enough sharpening to make the knife sharp, but that wasn't the point. All the massive chips and the misshapen profile is still there, but overall the edge still got a million times sharper. Nowhere close to the Fujiwara though.

My professional chef roommate offered to show me the "best" way to sharpen using his own knife. He looked like he was using the stone as a stationary honing steel and sliced a few chunks off the edges of the stone. His knife wouldn't even cut through paper towel after that, but he seemed very pleased that he was able to scratch through the first ply after a couple tries. His technique built up a lot of nice looking mud, though. Maybe I get too close to the edge and push all of mine off.

A couple hours after using the stone, it is FREEZING cold. Pretty neat! I heard they make ice in India through evaporative cooling like this.

I'm keeping the stone on my desk with only two corners resting on the stone holder so that it can get airflow on all sides and dry out before I put it back in the box. Curious to see if it develops frost by tomorrow morning, lol.

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If I don't need to keep the knife wrapped up in that paper then I'll tuck it away somewhere, I guess. Maybe I'm just being too anal since it's my first time having something like this. I'm the kind of guy who parks in a far off corner of an empty parking lot just to avoid door dings.





  








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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

I can dig it! I'm sure I'll get over the babying phase soon enough. Then I'll start lusting after insanely expensive knives, more sharpening toys, a wood cutting board..


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

GuySmily said:


> I can dig it! I'm sure I'll get over the babying phase soon enough. Then I'll start lusting after insanely expensive knives, more sharpening toys, a wood cutting board..


Welcome to the rabbit hole haha

I really wouldn't worry too much about the paper testing especially that free standing stuff with an OOTB edge. IMO those can depend a fair bit on exactly how you fold the paper. Recently been trending more towards using Murray Carter's three finger test for analyzing edge quality and burr removal with only paper/paper towel cutting (held between 2 fingers) just to verify that there are not catches (burr, other inconsistencies) in the draw.

Good start on your patina!

The LC Germain could honestly need loads of repair and thinning to be able to get close to matching your Fujiwara.

I use my Beston & Bester fairly wet which to me means even permasoaked, dripping a few more drops of water periodically during sharpening. Hard to explain mud/slurry consistency and there's probably a range of preferences on that, but you'll hear the difference when the stone really dries out. It gets scratchy(-er) and kind of higher pitched when abrading.

I make cardboard sheaths for the knives not purchased with a saya using Amazon shipping box style cardboard and clear packaging tape. Keeps the knives more accessible than reaching into multiple boxes :3


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Your knife has a good edge on it, no doubt about that.  For me the real test of a keen edge is slicing onion less than 1mm, and if you can get a good section of 0.5mm then you know how to sharpen.  Admittedly this keen an edge won't hold up on the board, but it does have its uses.

I like your patina just fine.  Mango gives a gun-metal blue, lemon oil leaves a burnished kind of sheen to a patina, but doesn't create much patina on its own.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

on stones and repairing edges.   for quick removal of chips and nicks, I use a Norton Crystolon coarse/fine 8" to remove the chip and restore/refine the bevel, then a Norton India coarse/fine 8" to restore the edge.  for most kitchen chores, the edge from the India fine is great.  will push cut newprint and shave arm hair without pulling.  If I want a finer edge, I use a JewelStik 1200 grit diamond bench hone.

scott


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## guysmily (Sep 6, 2016)

Hey guys,

My Suehiro 1000/5000 stones came in from toolsfromjapan! They were extremely well packed, with each stone individually boxed and wrapped in many many layers of bubble wrap, and those bundles surrounded by pillowy soft packing peanuts the likes of which I have never seen before. Yeah, even Japanese packing peanuts are superior.

I'm practicing sharpening on my LC Germain right now. My technique seems to be improving, based on the fact that my latest pass with just the 500 feels sharper than my previous go through all three (500->1000->5000) stones.

This time around, I'm sharpening at a more acute angle. That really seems to be making a difference.

How sharp should my knife be after just the 500? I can get a few inches through a piece of paper in one stroke. Definitely not performing like the Fujiwara yet... But we'll see how it goes after the 5000

edit- Maybe a better question is this- Should I be able to get a sharper edge on this Germain than the factory edge on the Fujiwara? I just finished with the 5000 again, and while the knife feels amazing compared to where it started, it's still not at the Fujiwara level. I know I wobble a bit and I have a slightly convex edge as a result. I'm also not through the worst of the edge damage yet.





  








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^---- Interesting ghosting on the side of the blade from the 5000 grit stone. I love that stone - the slurry is so soft and creamy.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Yay! Glad your stones from TFJ came in safely. They feel nice to sharpen on, don't they... 

Hard to say without having personally seen how your Fujiwara came, but probably? Your Fujiwara can be made to perform better than how it came to you as well. The LC Germain could probably use some more thinning which is one thing that can help with those kinds of tests. Though how long it holds an edge is maybe up in the air. You'll keep improving on your technique and consistency - bevel looks like you've got the gist of it though the back is less even.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

glad your stones arrived in one piece. how sharp can you get? try cutting newsprint then a paper napkin. with a good edge, you should be able to do a 90 degree push cut on newsprint. cut a hole in the paper napkin and insert blade. you should be able to cleanly cut to the edge. also remember that geometry cuts, no how fine you have polished your edge. here is a good reference on sharpening https://archive.org/details/Experiments_on_Knife_Sharpening_John_Verhoeven if you can do some measurements. your edge should be 0.005" or less. 1/4" above the edge 0.015" to 0.02", 1/2" above the edge 0.03". if your blade is much thicker than this, you may have to put your new stones back in the box and break out a Norton Crystolon coarse/fine and remove some steel. Also decide what you want the knife to do. the edge I gave measurements for will slice meat and veg like a laser, but might be a little fragile for heavy chopping or boning.

the old sailor


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Wowah, the steel on a Fujiwara FKM is too soft to I think to tolerate a .005 edge", at this level of thin it would likely take a bend-set cutting through something no tougher that a turkey leg tendon.  .010", maybe even .008", would be good to keep this knife at.


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## playero (Nov 20, 2016)

wow a lot of sugestions and now for my 10 cents. I just emptied 3 houses my fathers main house my fathers apartment and my grand mothers place. I found tons of knives and gave away some saved a lot. just went to a knife show and a sharpener did the work way under your stone buying budget. he even helped with the handles. I was going to throw away some but a lady from church said that some people do not have any and would benefit from the knife regardless of the condition??

anyway in my fathers house found 3 sharpening machines from a well known store brand, a creftman grinder, 3-4 stones, carbide device plus leather strop.

amazing how these old knives cut it is like they are grateful for a new life


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If these were prior to the fifties then they are all carbon, no stainless cutlery yet existed, and carbon simply takes a better edge.  But in the fifties there were some decent stainless knives, in 440C surgical stainless, introduced by Deluxe Personna.


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## playero (Nov 20, 2016)

you need to strop those knives to finish the sharpening. watch raw with a bourdain and bob kramer he will explain


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