# Triple Threat: Advice for Chef's Knife, Pairing knife, and Bread Knife



## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

Hello All - 

I have spent the past week reading and creating a link archve of all the possible knives I should purchase. The only knife I have ever owned is a Global G-2 8'' Chef's knife and I have really grown to hate the handle. My hand actually blistered using a pinch grip this past Turkey Day. Long story short, i am in the market for some new knives and I would love to stay with Japanese knives. I would like to keep the total under $350 for all three knives if at all possible maxing out at $500.

Here is what I think I am going with so far based on prior posts:

Bread Knife - Mac Bread Knife
Chef's Knife - Torn between Hiromoto- Misono, or Masamoto ( I decided against the MAC Pro because of aesthetics)
Pairing knife - No Idea

Thanks for all the help and looking forward to your responses. If possible please provide links to where I should purchase your recommnedations. Thanks!


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## chophausmatt (Dec 1, 2008)

Hey blt,

I am not sure exactly what price range you want to keep yourself in, but in terms of quality, price, and durability, I don't think you can go wrong with Dexter Russell knives. They have paring knives, chef's knives, and bread / sandwich knives that really do the job well and are not too expensive. In my experience, with proper care, they can last a very long time too. I see you mentioned Global knives, which are much more expensive, but you also mentioned that the handle was uncomfortable. The "Sofgrip" and "V-lo" product lines that Dexter offers are really comfortable to hold and use. 

Hopefully I was some help!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You haven't told us which Hiromoto, Masamoto and Misono lines you're thinking about. Let me add another to your list and that's Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff. 

I owened a few Hiromoto AS and recommend them highly. They're not perfect, but they're very good knives. The handles are slender and perhaps a bit on the small side. If you have large hands and a less than perfect grip, you might want to rethink them. On the other hand, the Hiromoto handle is a LOT more forgiving than the Global handle.

Hiromoto makes a slightly less expensive, all stainless, "G" series. The G is G-3 which is identical to VG-10. The steel gets very sharp, one of the first stainless steels to do so, and has no real weaknesses. An excellent knife at a good price.

If I were buying new knives tomorrow, Masamoto HC (a carbon steel) would be on the top of my list. If I were buying stainless, Masamoto VG however, would not. The blade is just a little bit whippy for my taste. That said, Masamoto along with K-Sabatier and Thiers-Issard have the best feel in the business (MAC very high in the next tier). FWIW, I'd probably buy Tadatsuna. 

Misono UX-10 are extremely nice if you can get past the styling (I like it), but they're a little expensive for the steel they're using. A very comfortable, stylish knife. Gets very sharp.

If you've been following the forum you know I've recommended MAC knives to quite a few people. If the thought that the stupid silk screening wears off (quickly) isn't enough to rethink -- well it isn't. It's important to like the way your primary knife looks. 

Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff are made with blade steel very similar to the Misono UX-10, but with ergonomics similar to MAC -- which is to say very good ergonomics indeed. The steel (AEB-L) is hardened to around 58-59, skoshi softer than the Misono; but plenty hard. These would be way up my list for stainless, especially if I were watching my budget. They ship sharp and require very little work to make very sharp.

You might also want to look at the Togiharu line up at Korin. They seem to be built along much the same lines as non-UX-10 Misonos but at a slightly more favorable price. 

My knife set is built in part around the size relationship between my "petty" and my chef's knife. A petty looks like a paring (note: no "i" between the "a" and "r") knife but is a little longer. Sometimes you seem them sold as sandwich or utility knives. A knife in the 5" - 6" range is extremely useful for almost everything you wouldn't use your chef's knife. Which is a segue to: 

Get a longer chef's knife than 8". You'll find the extra length will make a lot of things go better. Among other things, you'll work faster and go longer between sharpnenings. The petty will take over any fine point work the longer chef's knife can't do. Also, if you're looking at Japanese knives on e-tailers you'll see that they offer petties but not many paring knives. 

The petty will see a LOT of use. My suggestion is that you buy the same type as your gyuto. Matching isn't important, but whatever virtues you see in the gyuto you'll want in the petty. So, why not? And if you need a short knife for tourne, peeling small veg, whatever, add one or two $10 Forschners as needed. 

Finally, please consider how you're planning to sharpen your new knives. The description of the Thanksgiving Global raises the strong suspicion that the knife is dull and forcing you to grip it too tightly. I'm not suggesting "sharpen it and try it again" because nearly everyone suffers grip problems from a Global eventually. Sharpen it, keep it as a small chef's knife, AND buy some really good ones. By the way, if you round over the Global's spine near the handle, you'll make the knife a lot more comfortable.

Lots to think about, eh?
BDL


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Bread knife - Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives
Chef's knife - Hiromoto 240 AS
Pairing knife - Shun Classic 3.5"

These three will please you greatly.


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## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

Darn....The irony of additional information and the beauty of ignorance collide...I have no idea wheter I should be looking at Carbon Steel vs Stainless either...
I was really looking at the Hiromoto 240 AS or the Masamato VG series but will defintely take a look at your recommendations. I like the look of the black handles

Where can I even purchase the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef? It's not on JCK and most sites only seem to have the slicer/carving knife.

As for the Togiharu, which line do you recommend? I seem Virgin Stainless Steel everywhere...


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Look at them here. Be sure and check out the Japanese wa handle page as well.

Order here.

I have two Grand Cheffs and another on order. You can't beat this steel for a home kitchen.

Buzz


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I wrote a great post covering all questions and lost it to server error. Oh well.

Let's see:

To flesh out Buzz's post a little -- choose your knives from the Sakai Takayuki catalog, and write down the catalog numbers. Then call (or email) Seito Trading, talk to Pam, make sure everything is copacetic; and finally give her the numbers.

Carbon. You're either the type or you aren't. If you have very good work habits, it doesn't involve much extra care at all. If you're a procrastinator, you'll hate it, don't buy it. Somewhere in between? Best edge, easiest to maintain, easiest to learn to sharpen -- the cost is not only some extra care, but the discipline to do it immediately, rather than tomorrow morning. _Ah domani_.

What else?

The Togiharu. The line for you is their top stainless, G-1. I believe the steel used is G3, which is the same as VG-10, and is an excellent steel. The handles are roomy, the knives are well made with fair attention to detail. The level of F&F is not as high as a Masamoto or top of the line Misono. Maybe a little less than a Hiromoto for that matter, but a more forgiving handle.

The "Virgin" is carbon. If you're interested in carbon, we'll talk. If you're the type. carbon kicks -- except in a catering environment or the type of pro kitchen where everyone's grabbing everyone else's knife. Then it's ****.

Everything else being equal, in the wild wacky world of better stainless, the Misono UX-10 at its Korin sale price is pretty attractive.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

I would say that I am pretty tidy and would prefer carbon if all it really means is staying on top of cleaning it. Let's talk carbon!


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Back to the Hiromoto AS. It's a great blade, easy to take care of, gets really sharp easily, and stay that way for a loooong time.

Edit: For less than $140 delivered it is an absolute bargain as well as being a high performer.

Buzz


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## cookingangry (Mar 28, 2008)

Consider buying some sharpening stones my friend. With your budget you could easily slide two stones (or a combo) and a honing rod in there. 

The Hiromoto AS that Buzz sugguests has a carbon edge clad in stainless. The edge steel is supposed to be among the absolute best so he's right, at that price it's almost a no brainer. I was very close to buying it a while back but went another direction. It should keep an edge very well but you have to wipe it down when you're cutting acidic foods or corrosion will eat away at the sharp. Only reservation with this knife is that for a beginner sharpener it's a little on the hard side.

Good luck making your choice.


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## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

Hiromoto AS sounds like the best choice in carbon. Sounds like the 270mm would be best. I do have smaller hands since I have been using the Global for two years I would imagine it would be a improvment. Where you recommned that i purchase it for $140 delivered? JCK has it for $148.31.

What is your take on carbon BDL?

And what size petty should I get?

Last question hopefully: What should i get in the way of sharpening tools...I just opened up pandoras box didnt I...


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

I gave you the price on a 240mm from JCK + $7 shipping.

I bought a 240 a year and a half ago and can't say enough about it. I gave it to my daughter and hubby for Christmas after having it rehandled. I may have posted it on this site before but here it is. 



Don't worry about sharpening Hitachi Aogami Blue Super Steel. Yes, it's very hard, but it's carbon and sharpens quickly. All you need to start is (my personal recommendation of course) Shapton 1k and 2k GlassStones, and a ceramic steel. Only about 1% of knives come with a descent edge although as I recall, the Hiro was fairly good. Anyway, put the knife on the GlassStones and grind on the original bevels. You don't want to change anything, rather, remove any micro chips that were probably present when you opened the box. Once the burr is removed and you're happy with the edge, start having fun with it. Use the ceramic steel to touch up the edge when you first notice any kind of performance degradation. In a home cooking situation, even if the knife is used daily, the steel should keep it going for months before you need to bring out the stones again.

Now, if you want a REALLY sharp edge, get a leather strop and charge it with .5 micron chromium oxide. I can promise you that you will treat the edge the same as if it were a razor blade. In fact, you can use the strop instead of the ceramic steel for awhile. 

Buzz


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Petty knives: I like mine at or near 150mm but it's just a personal preference I guess. I have several and my go to is a Takayuki Grand Cheff. I paid $98 plus a few bucks shipping when I ordered from Seito last summer.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

My take on carbon is that it's the way to go if you have the workhabits and you're not in a situation where you have to worry about what happens to your knives if you walk away for a few minutes -- catering particularly, where everyone does everyone's job.

I like the Hiromoto AS quite a bit. It's a great knife with a few very minor issues. I had a few and ended up passing them on to my son and keeping my antique Sabatiers. Part of the reason the Sabatiers stayed was emotional. The Hiromotos certainly held an edge longer and were slightly higher performance in a few other respects as well. But the Sabatiers were more comfortable.

The Hiromoto handle is a bit on the small and slender side for big hands. If you have a good pinch grip, with a soft hand, you won't find it an issue. Still, I found the single steel knife more responsive. At the end of the day, it turns out I'm not a fan of most cladded knives. You may feel differently. We had a thread going on the subject at Fred's Cutlery Fourm and responses were all over the map.

My western handled carbon hierarchy is:
1. Masmaoto HC. I purely love all Masamoto knives for ergonomics, fit and finish you name it. HC is their best western handled line. Made with, I think, a particularly pure Takefu (Japanese steel company making high performance knife steels including VG-10) carbon, V2C. If I were buying new knives tomorrow, I'd buy all Masamato HC.
2. Masamoto CT, very closely followed by;
3. Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, K-Sabatier _au carbone_, Thiers-Issard ****Elephant Sabatier carbon, and Nogent (Thiers-Issard Sabatier). The Japanese carbons certainly stay sharp a lot longer, and have thinner blades which is a good thing most of the time. The French knives, amazingly, get just as sharp. They are also a little heavier, stiffer, take abuse better, and feel more solid in the hand. They are equally agile and supply similar levels of feedback. All of the French handles, while different from one another in important ways, are very comfortable -- slightly better than either of the Japanese. There's something about that old fashioned French extended ferrule between the handle and bolster which makes the knife work. The Misono Sweden is the good looks champ -- the longer knives have a dragon engraved on them, while some of the medium sized knives have a flower. Very cool. F&F might or might not be an issue with any of them. My feeling is that you're less likely to run into an issue with the Japanese brands. But, none of them are Masamotos, or for that matter, Wusthof.
4. Togiharu carbon (on reputation), seem to be slightly less deluxe versions of the Masamoto CT and Kikuichi Elite; and 
5. The bargain Japanese carbons, like Fujiwara FKH, of which there are several other brands. You give up a lot of fit and finish and ergonomics, but get nearly all the performance. Very low dollars, and best bang for buck by far. Good knives to learn to sharpen on, and pick up some technique as well without breaking the bank. You will grow out of them pretty quickly though.

By the way, all of these knives, respond very well to honing on a "steel," which will keep you away from the stones for quite some time.

Think of your petty as the support system for your chef's knife. You want something large enough to use as an intermediate utility, and something small enough to use for paring. I use a 6" Nogent slicer. You'd probably be more comfortable with something in the 4" - 5" range -- but it depends on you. A longer knife won't make you more manly or anything. Length is a little more versatile in some ways, but harder to control. Your petty is the knife you want for absolute tip control so don't push it out of your comfort zone. It's the knife you'll use for boning and jointing chicken, cutting tomato roses, and all sorts of thing. Comfort first.

If you do special things that call for a small paring knife, 3-1/2" or less, I suggest getting another knife. My wife insists on a small knife in the block, and she likes the Forschner sheep's foot. Excellent shape if you rest your thumb along the spine while you peel fruit. They last a few years before I sharpen them to oblivion, but they're only around $15 (Rosewood) or $7.50 (Fibrox) to begin with; so no big deal. Buzz and I have a friend who swears by the little Forschner serrated knives (about $3.50 each). Buy a box, use 'til dull, and toss. Make sense. The little Nogents are more expensive, but they're a trip. You can't buy a small knife with a better handle (2-1/2" knife with a full size handle!!!), a piece of history, and they get sharp very easily. Misono Sweden has a dandy little 8cm parer as well.

Just a few thoughts,
BDL


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## adamlovescarbon (Dec 7, 2008)

Hi boar d laze
Im new to the forum, but i stumbled into a forum where you were discussing different knives sold on korin.com
you seem to know what your talking about, so i wanted to ask your opinion on somthing.
I own a misono swedish carbon gyuto 240mm and Its the best investment ive ever made.
I am curently interested in buying the 300mm version, as i need a high quality larger sized knife. Im not interested in brands other than misono, as I trust them whole heartedly.
my Question:
How in your opinion does the 300mm ux10s sharpness and edge retention compare to that of the 300mm swedish carbon. (In my experience, when my swedish carbon is dull, its not nearly as dull as my coworker's ux10. This could be due to the thickness of the blade?) 
also the sharpening of my sweedish carbon is somthing of a dream. A few swipes on the stones and I could shave with it if i wanted to. With the ux10 there seems to be a bit more work to sharpen it (ie. time/pressure)
please reply,
thx, 
Adam


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for asking me, the compliment feels good.

I'm pretty familiar with the Misono Sweden line and like it a lot. Any knife in it is a good one, as far as I'm concerned. Yes to everything you said about carbon in general. I don't know why your knife holds on longer than your friend's UX-10. You've probably sharpened your knife into better geometry and bevels than his has, and your knife certainly responds to steeling better. Compared to yours, his edge is probably pretty deformed from impact by the time he hits the stones. It is definitely easier to sharpen carbon, so you're starting from a better place. And some of it is probably knife skills, for instance you have a softer grip and hit the board more squarely, and not as hard. Meanwhile, he's fighting a dull blade and using a lot of force. Or, could it be the dragon? 

Moving on to your spefic question, are we talking chef's/gyuto or slicer? If you're looking for some extra length in your primary chef's, consider the smaller step to a 270. For whatever reason it's a big step up in productivity without creating significant problems for someone with good skills in the other areas I mentioned. It's a very natural move up, while a 300 is almost always awkward. 300 is a big knife and vastly different from a 270 or a 240. Not only is it significantly heavier, balanced very blade forward, it creates real pressure on the way you organize your board and your ability to place the point. 

If you started with an 8" knife, remember what the 30mm step to 240 was like? Huge. For whatever reasons, a 210 is like an 8" knife, 240 and 270 are both like 10", and a 300 is like a 12" blade. I only use my 12" for special purposes -- or just because I feel like fooling around with it. It's way too much PITA for a daily driver. FWIW, it's an old carbon Sabatier (I think K-Sab) which is a little heavier and better balanced than a Misono. 

If we're talking slicer and not chef's knife -- forget all this stuff and jump at the 300. It's an incredibly useful length. IMO, with slicers it's 270 which is the betwixt and between length.

Love the dragon,
BDL


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## adamlovescarbon (Dec 7, 2008)

Thx, and yes i am talking about the gyuto. I think i will go for the 270, 12 inches is a bit much to fit on my board. I also no longer see any reason to go for the ux-10. Im actually more impressed by the swedish carbon steel anyway, and the only real draw for me to the ux-10, is the pride of owning one haha
thx
Adam


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## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

I have now decided that stainless is the way to go for me. I have seen patina on many blades and I just cant grow to like it. I have heard good things about Togiharu and Tojiro (about half the cost). I am trying to stay sub $175 for the 270 gyuto... Thoughts?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I' still haven't used a Togiharu, but by research and trusted reputation: There are three different Togiharu knife product lines. They're essentially similar -- with the major difference between them the steel blade material. They all have molded resin handles. Some people find the handles very slightly on the small side.

They're all considered good value for the money -- the more you pay the more you get in terms edge taking and edge holding, as well as a slight improvement in fit and finish. The ergonomics are substantially the same.

The Tojiro DP is unquestionably good value. In most respects it's a very good blade. It will take and hold an excellent edge. The handle is large, very squared off, and a lot of people find them uncomfortable. DPs are known for spotty fit and finish. Some people have had several, given away a dozen so and have never seen a problem. I'm familiar with three, all of which were lousy. Korin, the current source in the U.S. supposedly does a good job of preselecting good knives, rejecting bad ones before sending them out, and replacing any lemons which slip through the cracks.

Although Tojiros are good value, if you can afford more you can do much better in terms of design, ergonomics, fit and finish and edge quality. Your money takes you almost exactly to the "Point of Diminishing Returns." In other words you can still get a lot of bang for the buck for every penny. Spend much more and you're chasing very small differences.

Here's a few to think about: Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff (available through Seito Trading), the Hiromoto G3, and the MAC Professional. BTW, the Togiharu G1

The Grand Cheff and the MAC are close to the top of your price range, but there's a lot of value there. The Grand Cheff is made with AEB-L, has excellent feel, ergonomics, F&F, and so on. It's currently one of the really hot knives with culinary knife enthusiasts

MAC won't say what steel they use in any of their knives. The Professional's blade is absolutely first rate for the price, with more apparent stiffness than other Japanese knife. Yet there doesn't seem to be any thickness or weight penalty. The blade is beautifully shaped -- about as good (and very similar to) old Sabatier. MAC handles are as good as any you can find -- the equal of Masamoto.

Hiromoto handles are a bit on the slender side, but most people seem to find them comfortable. I have large hands, had three Hiros, and didn't find the handles a problem -- although not as good as my other knives. Remember those culinary knife enthusiasts? The G3's fraternal twin the AS has been a long time favorite partly because of its Aogami Super (carbon) core. Well, G3 is an excellent stainless steel -- the equal of AEB-L and VG-10 when everything is considered. It's a very nice knife for a very good price.

Interested?
BDL


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## cookingangry (Mar 28, 2008)

It should also be noted that at your price range, you can get a Hattori HD with the demascus pattern steel. If carbon patina is an issue then you ARE into aesthetics and might like demascus. I don't but we are talking about you. Hattori uses VG steel so it's in the top teir of stainless and his fit and finish is second to none.

They are available at japanesechefsknife.com


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## blt (Nov 30, 2008)

Aesthetics do play a factor in my buying decision, however I actually do not like the damascus patterns. I prefer a clean looking engraved look.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

In your price range -- quality, stainless knife with "clean looking engraved look," maybe an Akifusa (Epicurean Edge) or the Hiromoto G3 (Japanese Chef Knife). 

Most of the others aren't engraved very deeply, or their logos are simply silk-screened on and will wear off rather quickly. In the case of the MAC Professional and the Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, that's probably a good thing. Neither has very attractive graphics. 

Those four knives are fairly different from one another, yet each is an excellent basic chef's knife providing excellent value for the money. I'm sure you'd like any of them. 

Know how you're going to keep whatever it is you'll buy sharp. All knives get dull. It would be a shame to let a knife as good as any of these go to waste.

BDL


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## mont86 (Jan 24, 2009)

I just bought a 8" Shun chefs knife and the Shun steel. 

For the sharpener , the sales person said I should purchase a Shun electric sharpener, because of how its made.
Is there any truth to this?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

On the sharpener: Depends what you mean. You should not use most electric or pull-through sharpeners, because the angles are set around 20 degrees or so, where your Shun's bevels are more like 15 degrees. Shun is not the only purveyor of electric or pull-through sharpeners set at this angle, though.

However, no sharpener of this kind will really do justice to a decent knife: sharpening on stones, an EdgePro, or something of the sort will do an enormously superior job.

You're looking at two different issues: convenience and quality.

If you want maximal convenience, you will probably find Shun's sharpener just fine, and you know where to get one. I know BDL has some other brands he mentions, and I don't know who makes the Shun sharpener, but it will probably do a functional job -- no more than that.

If you want maximal sharpness, you need a decent sharpening system. You can learn to use stones, which is fun but a hobby unto itself, or you can get a good sharpening-assistance system: Apex EdgePro is generally thought about the best normally available.

What you should NOT do is use an electric or pull-through sharpener that is not set to the appropriate angles, which means most of them.


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## mont86 (Jan 24, 2009)

Being new too a good knife I'm amazed at how sharp it is! I would like to maintain that edge if possible...The weight of the knife was almost enough to slice the food...WOW!


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

And the really impressive thing is... that knife isn't really sharp yet. They don't come as sharp as they can be, by a long chalk. If you decide you adore this feeling, you're going to need to get real sharpening equipment and learn how -- no electric or pull-through is ever going to get major sharpness going.


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## mont86 (Jan 24, 2009)

I practice with one of my old knives first,right? BDL has suggested the Norton sharpening system I believe. I'm going to look up the egde pro as well.


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

All Shun knives are factory sharpened at 16 degrees per side and the electric sharpener bearing the Shun name matches. If you don't want to learn free hand or EP sharpening then the Shun electric is the way to go.

Buzz


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

A passing note -- listen to Buzz, he knows.


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## mont86 (Jan 24, 2009)

I wouldn't mind learning free hand and EP..What angle do the other
brands sharpen their knives to?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Most major Japanese brands are sharpened to 15* on each side. 

While it's impossible to read Shun's collective mind, I suspect Shun sharpens to 16* to provide some very slight rationale for purchasing Shun sharpening gear -- such as their electric knife sharpener -- also set to to 16*

Shun's electric knife sharpener is manufactured by the same (American) company which makes Chef's Choice, Edgecraft; and it's very fair to say that the Shun is the company's bottom of the line Asian knife sharpener (they make four others). Any of the Chef's Choice machines will grind a Shun to 15*, and both the knife and the machine will work perfectly well. 

Furthermore, there's nothing magic about manufacturers' suggested angles and/or supplied edge geometry. Sometimes they're the best for the knife, sometimes they're not even close. A good sharpener considers the shape of the knife, the material of which it's made, and the use to which it will be put, before deciding on the edge angle, type of bevelling and symmetry. 

Freehand sharpening is the most comprehensive and flexible system. A good set of stones is NOT a cheap investment though. Not that you can't find a couple of adequate surfaces for not too much, but if you're into doing really good work and want a versatile set, it will cost you.

Rod-guide systems are probably the closest results you can get to freehanding. Better under many circumstances. The learning curve is much shallower. Cost goes from low-medium to high-medium, but at least it's pretty well capped -- that is, there's a limit to how much you can spend on your rod-guid system. The best home system is the Edge Pro Apex. Highly recommended.

There are only a few electric sharpening machines which are (a) not harmful to your knives; and (b) do a decent or better job on them. We may as well limit the universe to Chef's Choice, since the others which fit under our criteria umbrella are expensive and/or unreliable. Chef's Choice machines work extremely well, and contrary to a great deal of uninformed opinion won't harm your knives. The edge is not as good as can be produced by a good free hander; but the edge is produced quickly and there's no BS about learning a new skill. Although they do make a machine which will handle the most common edges of Western and Asian knives respectively, the weakness of Chef's Choice machines is their lack of versatility. Nevertheless, they are the best choice for a lot of people because they're simple enough to use. 

Ceramic "V" stick systems like the Spyderco Sharpmaker are useful for "touch ups" but are way too slow to get your knives really sharp. Also, they don't really do much in the way of getting a precision edge angle; they just make you feel better about your inaccuracy. Nice to have around if you want something that straddles the difference between a medium grit sharpening stone and a honing rod, without being as good as either. Of the V ceramics, I slightly prefer the Idahone to the Spyderco, and the Spyderco to the Lansky. Those are the Big 3, and no matter how I rate them, they're inherently equal. Just make sure the set in which you're interested can be set to the angles you want. 

Pull throughs come in two basic flavors: Table tops like the Mino Sharp, Henckels, Wusthof, Chef's Choice, etc., and "'V' grooves" with carbide wheels or rods. The "'V' grooves" themselves may be devided into those which are dragged over the blade, and those which the blade is pulled through. Just to make matters confusing, you can easily think of the table tops as a species of V groove. With two exceptions, these are either a waste of time or will destroy your knives. 

The table tops are very slow. To take a knife from barely dull to barely sharp takes something like 60 passes. And no matter how many times you pull the knife through the slot, they won't get a knife sharper than medium sharp. Furthermore, they get dirty easily and range from difficult to impossible to clean. It's not a question of aesthetics, the abrasive surfaces don't get dirty so much as "load up" and "clog." When they're clogged, they don't work -- at all. There are two which are best of the bunch -- MinoSharp and Chef's Choice. Because they're easy to use and fairly cheap, it's how some people roll. Try not to be one.

As to the rest of the V grooves, including the "miracle" sharpeners you see advertised on TV like the ones with the protective handle you drag across the knife, or the ones with the set of rods which clamps to the table. They do not actually sharpen so much as rip your knife's edge into teeth, which then cut like a saw. These are effective -- that is, your knife will cut after being sharpened; but it won't cut correctly and neither the edge nor the knife will last very long. Of these, Chantry sharpeners will screw up your knives, but they look doing it. Not a bad choice if you can live with the rough cutting and doing damage to your cutlery.

There's often an exception to the rule, and this time it's the Blackie Collins sharpener. 

"Sharpening steels" or "rods" including "diamond" steels will screw up your knives something fierce. If you're into "fast and dirty," some of them will put a very toothy edge on quickly. Not recommended. On the other hand, "honing steels" or "rods" are a very useful knife maintenance tool. Unfortunately terminology is inconsistent and the words "sharpening" and "honing" are confused and/or used interchangeably. If you're looking for a honing steel, always look for the terms "fine," "extra-fine," "smooth," and/or "glass smooth." Unless you very much know what you're doing (and then you're not coming to me for advice) you'll stick with round rods. Right now the class of the bunch is the Idahone fine ceramic rod (about $25 at this writing). 

BDL

PS. Full disclosure: I've been a free hand sharpener since 1962, and have used all sorts of sharpening equipment. I'm currently using a set of four stones, including two Norton India stones, and two Arkansas stones; and an old Henckels extra fine steel (not available anymore) -- the Hand American borosilicate glass rod went to honing heaven and will not be replaced. Waterstones are better than Arkansas stones for almost all purposes and nearly all users.


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## mont86 (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the great read BDL..What grit stones do you use? I see they range from
300 to 8000. What would I need for a starter set?

What do you think about the Norton combination waterstones? Is that the same as the Norton India stones?

Watched the Apex video. That looks like a decent set up. Something a beginner could handle.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

A beginner can handle it, yes, but the thing is, it can produce edges way up there toward perfection. That takes skill, but not nearly as much -- nor as much time to learn it -- as doing it freehand.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

mont86;258612 said:


> Thanks for the great read BDL..What grit stones do you use? I see they range from
> 300 to 8000. What would I need for a starter set?
> 
> I use a Norton coarse India, Norton fine India, Hall's soft Arkansas, and Hall's (surgical) black Arkansas. The coarse India is the equivalent of a 200# Japanese waterstone; the fine India of about a 700#; the soft Arkansas of about 1200#, and the surgical black of about 5000#. The equivalencies are not only very rough, they fly in the face of Norton's published opinion; but I think most sharpeners familiar with the stones would agree with me. I don't want to get too deep into the whys and wherefores for each stone and stone type; but grit and/or screen size are not absolutely determinative.
> ...


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

boar_d_laze;258626 said:


> The vast majority of waterstones are aluminum oxide, in a friable clay binder. A few (typically coarse ones) are silicon carbide, in a friable binder. Silicon carbide is also the primary abrasive in Norton's "Crystolon" brand of stones, though there, they're in a fired and much less friable binder. Silicon carbide is also what's used in cheap ($5 or so) double sided stones found in hardware stores and the like. If you can find a decently sized one of these, without inclusions, I find they work better than coarse gritted water stones (cut faster, stay flat longer) for removing damage or reshaping. They're a bit too coarse (the "fine" side is about the same as an 800 or 1000 grit waterstone, depending on the particular one) for a finished edge.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

"Regular" silicon carbide stones, even the very good ones like the Norton Crystolon are much slower than waterstones using silicon carbide as the abrasive. They also clog much faster, whether used dry, with water or with oil. It's true they don't require the maintenance of waterstones, especially coarse stones which dish very quickly. But they are very, very slowve in comparison and not really suitable for steels taken beyond HrC 60 or so.

A part of owning and using waterstones is flattening. Once the sharpener has the equipment, flattening is not so onerous as to make up for the speed disadvantage. 

Personally, I prefer aluminum oxide, in the form of Norton India for my coarse work -- given my set of knives. Even at the same nominal grade as an equivalent Crystolon, they're a little slower. But I find they leave significantly less scratch; clean better in the dishwasher, don't glaze as easily, etc. If I had to choose one stone for European kitchen knives it would be the Norton IB-8 combi, and I think I'd get a lot of agreement.

However, once you throw a bunch of knives with modern, and/or better, and/or significantly hardened blade steel into the mix (in other words, Japanese knives better than Shun and Global, and any number of western customs) the western stones can't compete. I know, I've tried. They work, but very slowly. That slowness in a novice's hands multiplies the opportunity for error and means knives never get really sharp. In the hands of someone who's been freehanding for decades it's not that negative, mostly just more zen-out time.

Given a typical Japanese blade made from Gin3 hardened to HrC 60, a "pink brick" at 220# JIS is significantly faster than a Norton coarse Crystolon at (about) JIS #80. (including the several flattenings a damaged knife might require) and doesn't run the same risk of glazing a Crystolon does during an energetic session. 

Also, very few of the modern-type waterstones I recommend use aluminum oxide or silicon carbide, but other ceramics. These include stones by Bester, Naniwa, Shapton, and Sigma to name a few. I've got nothing against either abrasive, and have a great deal of experience with stones employing both -- whether in the solid matrices typical of western stones or the soluble matrices of waterstones. 

All in all this is the type of discussion I hoped to avoid in this thread. It's an "inside baseball" level of nuance, and might be confusing to someone considering his first set. But here we are, we might as well have fun.

BDL


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

I don't think Norton's Crytolon's are very good stones. Yes, they're very consistently the grit they claim to be. But the abrasive is too tightly bound to the substrate, so they become very slow cutting very quickly. They're also impregnated with oil from the factory, which increases the rate at which they plug up. They may have been good for eighty years ago, but they're not today. I've the same objection to Norton's India stones. 

(Norton's other products, their sandpaper, their diamond stones, their grinding wheels, are first rate.) 

I repeat my assertion that the vast majority of waterstones are aluminum oxide. They're just calling it "ceramic" because they can; what's been improved is the manufacture of substrates. Aluminum oxide is plenty hard enough to cut even hard steels, so that's not a problem. 

At this point, were I in the market for stones, I don't know that I'd by anything other than continous surface diamond stones. Prices have been coming down steadily, unlike the prices for water stones, they'll last forever, are much faster, and are finally available in very fine grits.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Dave,

I'm not a fan of Crystolon, so won't defend them. 

You're right about oil, whether "impregnated" at the factory or added at the time of sharpening, causing the stones to clog. However, the stones can be cleaned with regular dish detergent in the dishwasher or in a pot of boiling water and that will get rid of the oil, as well left over swarf (filings from sharpening). No stone works well unless clean; but these types are extremely sensitive to loading and clogging. 

Personally, I'm a big fan of the dishwasher. I should also mention that I recommend Juranitch style, dry sharpening. 

Yes. 

I'm not sure of the vast majority. However there are a variety of other abrasives used, especially at the high end. In fact, some waterstones manufacturers like Naniwa and Shapton make a point of specifying that their abrasives are neither AlO, nor SiC. 

The things I like most about waterstones is their speed and relative lack of required maintenance -- and they sure do stay flat. I can't argue with your experience, but mine is different. Stones "lesser" than DMT wear very quickly; DMT's wear fairly quickly; while better stones like Atomas are incredibly expensive. Also, DMT just doesn't give enough range at the high end. 

If I were buying a new kit oriented towards knives made with very hard steel, like some of the Japanese, I might get a coarse or very coarse diamond stone, ideally an Atoma, and use it for knife repair, profiling, and stone maintenance. The rest of the kit would probably be Sigma Power and Naniwa -- and end up very expensive. The amount of maintenance waterstones require is annoying to say the least. That the stones themselves are only maintenance makes it worse. Still, you can make flattening, the most odious part, less inconvenient with a coouple of simple gags. 

As it happens, none of my knives are harder than HRC 58, and all sharpen well on my mix of India and Arkansas stones, sans oil.

BDL


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## buellride (Sep 2, 2009)

BDL...first post in this forum and would like your opinion on the Nenox S1? I am considering a high quality knife and while I note your favor of Masamoto's HC series (which I will add to my list), I wonder about the Ryusen and Blazen Gyutos in addition to the Nenox and UX10. I like a larger chef knife with handles which fit comfortably in my larger hands. Thanks in Advance..Paul


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm glad you used the word 'mix' in describing the procedures you use for the best results.

I steal from everyone. The Edge pro guys, the traditional polishers, the leather strop guys and the Hand America sharpeners. I own all of their systems.

I do not use any mechanized equipment for one reason, and that's heat. I couldn't find a job after graduating from college and took a job buffing metal for electroplating. We had to wear gloves from the heat produced by cloth wheels.

On most alloys this may not be a problem. But on some Crucilbe alloys they have dropped their heat parameters from 600 degrees to around 150 degrees. 
(Which I cannot believe but I've seen it in print.)

People pay good money for top-flight kitchen knives, which can be instantly ruined with one nut, a nano second of foolishness and a heavy hand. I'm retired, I have a few hours to waste it it means getting it right.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Nenox S1 are fantastic knives! Excellent stainless that sharpens fairly easily, sharpens very well, and holds an edge well. Usually (but there have been a few problems) great fit and finish -- especially as Japanese go. The first and biggest criticism you can level at them is that they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive. The second, and this may be a deal breaker for you, is the handle. Not everyone likes it. I have large hands also (palm a water-polo ball comfortably but not really a basketball), and a very soft, very "academically correct," pinch grip. In short, I choke up on a knife when hold it. In my case, the Nenox grip on their big chef's knife is just barely large enough to be comfortable. 

Ryusen is the manufactuer; "Blazen" and "Bu-Rei-Zen" are two lines made by Ryusen. As you know Blazens (and Bu-Rei-Zen) have a powdered steel core laminated between outer layers of soft stainless. Personally, I don't like the feel of three layer cladded (san-mai aka warikomi) knives in the cut. However, this isn't something that very many people notice and/or care about. It's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. The knives aren't particularly easy to sharpen, but they do take a good edge and hold it very well. The handles are adequate. The Bu-Rei-Zen (available from Epicurean Edge) is an improved version of the regular Blazen -- better steel, and better saya. But you pay for the upgrade. On the whole, I think there are better knives in the price range and equal for substantially less. For instance, Akefusa (also available from EE) is pretty much a clone at a much lower price.

Misono UX-10 have some of the best handles at any price. They're very streamlined, and agile -- partly because of their low heel. In once sense they're quite pricey, but they're still on the very affordable end of "best knife at any price." They wouldn't be my first choice, though. Even though they feel great, they're somewhat on the whippy side. Another knock is that some people don't find them easy to sharpen. 

If "price is no object," and you're seriously considering Nenox S, then you might want to think about custom and semi-custom knives such as Murray Carter and Thomas Haslinger for instance.

You might also want to consider Japanese handled western style knives -- the octagonal and "d" handles are very comfortable and custom sizes, when necessary, are very affordable.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## buellride (Sep 2, 2009)

BDL...well dang you're a great source of information. Really appreicate your insight. Funny you mention "waterpolo" hands, I used to play Holeman in NCAA Div I Waterpolo in my California college years. Our hands are very similar; palm a WP ball, just barely a basketball. 
While I have not traditionally used the "pinch grip" method, I have not had a decent chef knife where I would benefit in utilizing the technique, rather I have to muscle the knife vice guiding the blade.

Anyway, I am really close to just pulling the trigger on the Bu-Rei-Zen 24cm Gyuto. To me, the top quality of the blade, handle, astetics, etc. are all there for a "junior"-like Nenox that should last me the rest of my life but seems to have better steel.:bounce:

Additionally I fall into the your category of a home chef that wants the best equipment/knives but do not want to necessarily spend the time/money on stones. I have some but find the work a little too tedious for me. Thus my secondary question is what type of honing rod would you recommend for "maintenance" of the Bu-Rei-Zen? Ceramic/metal? I would use Ken or Dave for professional sharpening services once I take stock of the knives that need the loving care.

Finally is EE the best place to purchase both tools or are there other options for purchase? 

Thank you again for your expert insight!

Paul


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