# Advice/Recommendation on buying a stainless steel gyuto or something like that.



## swag yoloneise (Jul 3, 2015)

hello. Jun here.

Im an apprentice chef who just graduated from culinary school.

When i entered culinary school, I was gifted a japanese gyuto, a Kasumi. Having just entered culinary school at the time, I had no idea about high carbon content knives and how to care for them and I used the Kasumi to cut through bones and everything and now its rather chipped here and there. Now when i started looking for a new chef knife, only then did i find out theres a lot of care needed to own and maintain a high carbon knife*still not even sure if I'm doing it right*. Having just graduated and about to enter a professional kitchen to work. Im looking for a good all purpose chef knife, something that i can cut through bones without having fear of it chipping on me. I send my knives out to sharpen at least once a month. I would like to stick to the style of a japanese Gyuto as thats what I have been using all this time, also Price is not really an issue. I just want something thats good and will last me a very long time (hopefully something ill use throughout my professional career).

I have had a look online for a few, and these are what I have come up with. (I'm gonna link it as well as I'm not sure what they are called).

1-Masamoto Hyper-Carbon MV Stainless Chef Knife(Gyuto)

http://www.hocho-knife.com/masamoto-hyper-molybdenum-vanadium-stainless-chef-knife-gyuto-300mm/

2-kikuichi Gyuto Molybdenum all Purpose knife stainless steel.

http://kikuichistore.net/gyutomolybdenumallpurposeknifestainlesssteel.aspx

3-Kikuichi Gyuto stainless gold all purpose knife warikomi grade (linking this one because i don't know whats the difference between this one and number 2)

http://kikuichistore.net/westernstyleallpurposeknifestainlesssteelstaingoldgrade1.aspx

4-Kikuichi Performanace TKC

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ichimonjitkc.html

Reading through the many threads here. I can see that the MAC pro is a really popular recommendation. And its something I would consider. Though it really doesn't appeal to me at the moment from just viewing online. I know the only way to see if a knife suits me is to actually physically test it and hold it. Unfortunately thats not an option where i live as they are not readily available. (I live outside the US). So if I'm able to get some advice or recommendations and get more information. That would really help me out a lot.

Thank you in advance.

Jun.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Cut through bone????  I assume you are refereeing to chicken ribs.

There is no reason whatsoever your goto gyuto should be used for anything but flesh of vegy, fruit and animal.  You can always pick up a honesuki or cheap carbon butcher knife for spatchcocking and such, cleavers have been popular around here lately also.

The TKC is the better of the bunch you've listed.  You have to understand that it is a very thin knife in all respects, probably best not to cut any meat having a bone in it, same for frozen foods.

Rick


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

Congrats on graduating
I used to have a kaumi, they're really quite nice with a VG10 core. Inexpensive, Well made and very low maintenance. Perfect for a student, and very good for someone working the line. BUT it is  NOT a "high carbon" knife NOR IS ANY OF THE OTHERS YOU LISTED.

ALL of the ones you listed are pretty darn good. You couldn't go wrong purchasing any of them. But most of them are similar composition steel (san maii or damascus with a vg10 core) or not even as high a quality steel (MV) as the one you're moving from. Althugh there are other factors such as artisanship and quality of finish to consider. For now I'm just talking steel.

FIRST. If you're a grad, why re you cutting bones with a gyuto? Use a cleaver

SECOND If you want to buy a new knife in addition to your old knife I'm on your side 100%. But your old knife can probably be repaired for a reasonable cost. At the very worse, they might have to take enough away and thin it so you wind up with a sujihiki. And that's OK to because then you'll have a new gyuto and a "new" sujihiki.

THIRD, if you insist on breaking bones and don't want to use a cleaver, buy yourself a cheap x50CrMoV15.(german steel) chefs knife with a strong bolster and use the bolster end to break bone.There are relatively cheap Chinese cleavers you can use, even a CCK like the famous/infamous 5198 or 5197 is better than using a gyuto. They actually are pretty good knives. And if you ruin one it's only a few dollars.
NONE of the knives you listed should be used to cut bone. In fact, I'd be even more harsh than Rick. I wouldn't even let anyone in my kitchen use a honesuki for cutting through bone.  I'd let them bone out a chicken or something, but not cut through any more than the joint.

FOURTH learn to sharpen your own knives and then you only need to send them out once or twice a year. Save money. And it will keep the knife in circulation instead of having to waste time taking it in or waste the use of it if you have to wait a few days.

FIFTH why hasn't your knife sharpener told you everything Rick Allen and I have told you? If he hasn't, you also need a new person to sharpen your knives. If he hasn't told you any of this, he's ripping your off


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## swag yoloneise (Jul 3, 2015)

Thank you for replying and for giving more info. 

Cutting through bones was meant as in breaking down a whole chicken, rabbit (not actually breaking down the whole carcass. used a deboning knife for that, but when I need to for example separate the thigh from the drum, ill use my gyuto), breaking the fish bones into pieces so it can fit in the stock pot, frenching chicken drumsticks etc. As a student i made quite a few mistakes when learning to do these. Also as part of the student knife pack, it did not come with a cleaver so being a new cook at that time and knowing next to nothing about knives, i didn't expect it to be a problem. Unfortunately our chef lecturer has never mentioned or used a cleaver for these jobs as well. He uses a messermeister oliva to do the job. 

The sharpener that I go to or rather shop, was one where i just drop the knife off and the sharpener will come and do the job and leave, and i pick it up after from the shop. So i never really met with/talk to the sharpener personally in regards to my knife care. 

So from the information I've gathered so far. I will definitely need a cleaver. Though I'm still unsure off what new chef knife to get, I guess ill keep looking. But thank you all for replying. Ive definately learnt more about knifes, and would definitely welcome more information. Have to be honest though, When in school, I've never really thought about what i should cut with my gyuto/chef knife and what i shouldn't. It was more about getting the task on hand done efficiently and effectively, though thats gonna change and ill give more thought to what I cut when I enter the professional kitchen. 

Jun.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

Sorry we came off so  strong, but based on what you said I'm sure we were all shocked, even those that didn't post. It might have just been a regional thing to call that "cutting through bone". In our area, We don't call that "cutting through  bones" here. We might call that "deboning" or "breaking down". Your blade might slide along a bone and it might cut through the cartilidge of a joint, but it doesn't go through the bone itself. We thought that you were abusing your Kasumi which is a very nice knife. That's why we reacted so strongly.

If you're deboning, and IF (notice the capital letters) you wanted a Japanese blade I'd use a Honesuki. NOT a gyuto and, less so, not a chefs knife. (again, notice the capital letters)
And of course you can still get a western style boning knife. If that wasn't big enough I'd use a 6 inch chefs or petty knife. I probably would not use a santoku. I prefer a more pointed tip for this job.
Personally, in general, I use a western boning knife more than my honesukis. I prefer a 50/50 bevel when deboning poultry. A honesuki Is usually a single bevel. I tend to use a more forgiving steel. At home, I probably use a honesuiki more than I do at work, but at work I absolutely use a western blade for deboning. A merssermeister is a great knife and it's perfect for the job. Cheap, german steel not hardened too high, 50/50 bevel. Henkels, wusthof and F Dick makes some great knives too. Are you starting to see I'm going German for this task?

I thought about it and I probably use my Wusthof Grand Prix2 the most for deboning chicken because
1 the steel is very "forgivng" both in it's tempering (hardness) and in the chemical composition

2 the blade is relatively cheap if I destroy it

3 because the santoprene handle is very non slip and because

4 it is very comfortable (it has a hard rubber feel so it doesn't hurt to use a long time or with a lot of pressure) and

5 because santoprene is pretty good in not growing bacteria. I wouldn't want to expose my nice wooden blades and natural ferrules to the high heat and chemicals of a kitchen as much as I would santoprene. When I was a knife for poultry deboning I use as hot a water as I can absolutely stand and I clean it longer and more often than I would if I was cutting beef or pork. Poultry is so dangerous when it comes to pathogens and rabbit that you mentioned is almost as bad.

As an apprentice, you're not earning a lot yet, and because you probably have a mountain of student debt, a Mercer Genesis is a very very good second choice to a Grand Prix2 and they are a third the cost
If you like a harder more traditional handle, Use a wusthof classic,  henkels pros or henkels 4star. A mercer renaissance bears a remarkable resemblance to a wusthof classic at a third the cost. Most schools use mercer and you probably have one already. I still maintain one full roll of mercer products that I keep in the car for emergencies. I love that they're so high quality for so cheap. If it gets stolen, no big deal, but I'd have a heart attack if they stole my demonstration knife roll or my every day knife roll. Even 20 years from now you can always rely on them, sure you'll have to change a few out because of loss or because you've worn the blade away with sharpening,  but you'll still fondly keep them even when you've gotten much better blades


  I'd still get a cheap cleaver just to have one. You can get a good German cleaver for about 150-200 US dollars. But I personally haven't done it that way. I went cheap. Even a crummy 20-30 dollar Chinese one-piece "piece of junk" is better than ruining an expensive chefs knife or gyuto. Who cares if it's crummy steel if you're banging it up on bone. If you destroy it, you only lost a thenth the loss as if it were an expensive german cleaver.

 Separately and unrelated to boning, I'd still get a sacrificial CCK like a 5198 or a 5197 just because they are good and cheap and if I destroy them it's no big hit on the pocket. And they are great to use. I know a lot of chefs using CCK's more than 50% of the time, especially for veggies. They are really more versatile than people assume. I mention them only because they are shaped like a cleaver and you could use it as one in an emergency and not worry too much about ruining an expensive blade.

But again I apologize for coming off so strong. we thought you were cutting through bone with your gyuto and we were appalled. If we saw you beating a child or beating an elder, we'd be just as indignant as abusing your kasumi.
I'd still learn to sharpen myself. I'd still  get a new knife sharpener, that one sounds like he's ripping you off.  and I'd still investigate repairing repair the older blade, even if it had to be turned into a sujihiki if it was inexpensive.
You still need a very good gyuto, all those mentioned, and more are good choices, but NONE of them are "high carbon". All the retailers you mentioned are good choices.
Good luck in your new career and congrats on graduating


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Small chips sharpen out with normal sharpening. They'd have to be real big to warrant reprofiling the blade.


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## swag yoloneise (Jul 3, 2015)

Ty very much for the replies. It was my bad for not explaining my self properly and clearly. I do realize I need a western blade for the heavy bashing. I shall look and research into all that you have recommended. Looks like I'll be looking at getting 2-3 new knives then if I'm Including a cleaver =). Being a cook is actually a career change for me. Worked as a music teacher for 3 years and a bit of an academic myself before I decided to wanting to be a chef, so I'm stepping into the industry pretty late, though it's the best decision I've made so far. 

Harissonh, Millionknives and Rick Alan. Ty very much for the time you have taken to reply and inform a novice such as myself. I really do appreciate it and have definately learnt and benefitted from all your advice, and yes, learning to sharpen my own knives is something I'm going to learn. Would love my maintain my own knives if I were to invest in a really good gyuto. 

Thanks again.
Jun


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I missed it but as Harrison pointed out, along with everything else, you already had a very good knife.  The abuse is understandable, the first (and one of the last) time I helped my father at his dinner I didn't differentiate between a plate and the nice wood counter cutting surface right under it.

Perhaps the question for you right now is:

Might you actually want to stick with carbon, maybe try something in blue/blue-super steel for better edge retention?

Go all stainless/semi-stainless as you were suggesting?

Or maybe go with one of the PM super-steels?

As to the latter, the PM steels are about the same effort to sharpen as many stainless steels, ie, considerably more effort to get real sharp than your Kasumi.  And even they do not hold a razor edge very long, but they hold a very good edge for a long while.  And, depending on the maker, can be a little chippy.  Also, there are fewer options available in a 270, and those are very pricey.

HAP40 is a semi-stainless PM steel and appears to behave like other semi-stainless steels in that it sharpens up rather easy, but at this time you are limited to a 240.  The Kohetsu is moderately priced.

Then completely aside from steel you may be concerned about edge profile, handle and other such characterisitics, even if you haven't yet consciously considered these.  These may prove more important to you than nit-picking steel.

We may be going into info-overload here so I'll stop.

Rick


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

as millions of knives said.
small chips can be taken out with some aggressive sharpening. As sharpening goes beyond a certain point, it may become necessary to thin the blade to restore the original geometry. As I said, at worst, thins would change a gyuto into a sujihiki ( a chefs knife into a slicing knife). But even a major repair like that would still be a fifth the cost of buying a new blade. As you can see in the thread, I'm all about saving money where I can, but then splurging and getting something good when I need to.

Yes, as Rick Allen pointed out, another way to go would be the metal particle or powdered metal super steels! They are expensive, but they are sharp, stay pretty sharp, even with major abuse. I didn't add those because of cost. The same with the blue steel, it's probably a bit expensinve for someone coming out of school, but is SUPURB. But it is brittle, especially at higher hardnesses.
Along thse lines Tojiro makes an excellent powdered metal blade and it is a little less expensive because it's san mai construction (3 layers with powdered metal being the core. http://www.tojiro-japan.com/products/184/
I personally own and HIGHLY recommend the New West Knifeworks Utility knife. http://www.newwestknifeworks.com/pr...od-20-line/-gfusion-petty-utility-knife-/3559

This is perfect for this job, but was a bit too much money for me to mention earlier. I tend to use my grandPrix2 more than this if I'm working for a long time because santoprene is so soft on the hands.
The new west knife has CPM s35VN steel. It is 62 hardness, but wont chip because this is machining steel. It's used to cut metal, so coming up to a bone is no big deal for it.
The G10 handle is a superb choice because it is incredibly non-slip. Many outdoor knives for hunters are G10 because of all the blood and slime they have to deal with. It has a very long handle so is great with leverage. It CAN be used with a "tennis racket grip" when needed, but it's balance point is perfectly at the knuckle of your index finger when using "the pinch".
But again, it's hard for long lengths of time, the same hardness as POM or micarta not soft and almost spongy santoprene. This is a perfect knife for boning, just not if you're going to do it more than a few hours and again, the cost. But new west has an amazing "warranty. ALL companies warrant against a defect in materials and workmanship, not for "wearing it out". New west will actually warrant it for a lifetime of usage too. If a home cook sharpens it down to a toothpick, they'll send you a brand new knife (and please do NOT compare this to a crappy cutco in anything else but it's warranty). As commercial chefs, they rightfully say that if we use it professionally, we should bear some of the expense of wearing it out so they'll give us a new one at only half the cost.
Powdered metal or metal particle is a great choice, it's proably just too expensive for Jun at this point in his career

Rick, I haven't tried HAP40, you're the first to tell me about it, but having read many of your posts, I trust your judgment and will check it out! THANKS!
EDIT: WOW THEY LOOK GREAT. I just picked up a new west santoku to match my petty, so I'm going to have to wait a few months, but will defaintely consider one of these in a few months! http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rihakn.html

Jun, Good luck with the change of career. We're all behind you (we support your choice and wish you well)
haeng uneul bireoyo


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Harrison I just want you to understand that at this time my only direct experience with PM steels is SRS-15.  Finishing that at about 12deg/side, on a 6K stone with a couple dozen or so stropping strokes per side at the end, I get an edge that will whittle hair right up the middle, but won't push-cut through a tomato skin.  And for me that is 45min worth of work starting with 1K then going to 6.

I really haven't heard enough talk about HAP40 yet, but I don't think the CKTG folks are exaggerating it too much.  I don't believe it will get quite as keen as V-2, white and the other pure or low-alloy high-carbon steels, nor get there quite so easy, and no one is really claiming that, but it seems to be closer to that than the other PM steels at this time.

There are some reasonably priced PM steel knives:  The Takamura R2 is a great deal, but 210 is their biggest; Akifusa SRS-15, Geshin Kagero SRS-15 (a better alternative); and the Kohetsu.  Maybe some others I don't know of.

Rick


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

don't worry, those are great leads and I'll do my own final research, and when I decide, I never blame anyone else if it isn't exactly what my expactations are.  I always enjoy finding about new things and I thiank you for the leads. I really like powdered metal so far. I've got one powdered metal core and two full blades.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

SRS-15 sharpening update:

Perhaps my memeory was a bit creative when I said 45min to sharpen. I'm still dealing with the "factory edge breakin," and just resharpened. I'm not the fastest here, and to go from raising a burr with 1K and finishing 6K was more like half that time. And sharpening a steep angle as I am does take more time.

Also I can push-cut through tomato skin now, takes a bit of force but not so much as to bruise. I'm talking knife on the tomato then pushing straight down.

I'll reassess by saying this steel is pretty reasonable to sharpen, particularly for a 66RC.

I've been reading the forums and heard some say that they feel SRS-15 excels beyond all others with textures like onions and celery. Not sure at all why this would be but grabbed a piece of celery and was able to consistently slice 0.5mm< down to as thin as .35mm, without making any _celery sawdust_. I haven't any carbon knives to compare to right now, but there may be some credence to the claims.

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Jun, as was mentioned above by harrisonh, congratulations on graduating.  I hope I'm not joining the discussion a bit on the late side.

Sharpening has been mentioned above, but I think that sharpening your own knives should be a much, MUCH higher priority than just getting new knives.

When you sharpen your own knives, you tend to start to think more along the lines of immediate efforts to keep the knife sharp, rather than just "When do I want to send this knife out to be sharpened", or (even worse), "Let's just get through until my next sharpening session".

It might initially sound like a personal hassle, but doing the sharpening yourself will keep your blade in better condition.  You will find that you will be much more in touch with how the blade responds, than just on an episodic basis.

The discussion above about individual knives is valuable, but sharpening skills will in both the short run and the long run make much more of a difference than filling up the knife roll or the magnetic bar.

Galley Swiller


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Amen, Galley Swiller.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

I really like what galley swiller said about:
" think more along the lines of immediate efforts to keep the knife sharp, rather than just "When do I want to send this knife out to be sharpened", or (even worse), "Let's just get through until my next sharpening session".


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