# Your Thoughts on The Most Important Knife Skills



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I think the subject of "Knife Skills" should be broken up into three general categories. They are: 

Knife handling -- including grip, posture, choice of knife, and so on;
Sharpening -- including method and equipment; and,
Board management -- including the board itself.
Furthermore, they are interdependent to the point that a limitation to one is a limitation to all -- whether the object is pure productivity or making cooking more fun and rewarding.

Your thoughts?

BDL


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

IMHO, an excellent foundation, most everything else fits under one of the three listed topics though there might be some consideration given to specific "food related skills", i.e. vegetable prep, butchering, fish prep, etc.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Pete,

On. The. Nose. You're right.

I'd mentally jammed all of those under "knife handling," and should have... oh, I don't know... actually written it.

On the other hand, what's wrong with your mind reading skills? Clearly, it's all your fault.

My broader thinking is that when we give advice we tend to overemphasize knife handling -- especially the processses of using a chef's to fabricate sticks and dice, but all the other specialty knife handling tricks and techniques as well -- over everything else.

Perhaps part of it happens because that's usually the way the question is asked; but if we're going to explain maybe we need to mention the other aspects as and if they come to bear.

One of the things that got me started on this was reading the "knife reviews" erroneously posted in the _Announcements_ thread. It seems that a great many people haven't experienced an actually sharp knife enough to appreciate how much easier it makes prepping -- and indeed, how it changes the nature of the the food itself.

Another was a sub thread in this thread about knife skills -- where the pinch grip was suggested but without any explanation that the knife tip, and the user's wrist, forearm, and elbow must be on the same line -- as though if each aspect of knife skills (knife handling in this example) was a thing unto itself, rather than part of an integrated whole.

Come to think of it, you might have been the one who brought some greater context to the thread in terms of posture and so forth.

Someone suggested putting one foot forward (French Fries, IIRC) but didn't explain that the purpose was to square the line of the knife so as to be perpindicular to the line of the run of the counter, which would allow the board to be parallel to the same line, the food to be parallel to the board, and that all of that square, parallel stuff would make it easier to control the angle of the cut while managing the board itself.

Oh heck. You know what I mean.

BDL


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2010)

Good idea to create 3 general categories relating to knife skills. I also like to think that the use of the knife to push food around(edge trailing behind spine or using the spine itself) a nd also the second hand to manage the food that is being cut is important, organizational and such. What about the use of the secondary, food-holding hand for some cutting tasks? Yep, I also think that's part of knife/cutting skills.

I believe sharpening/maintenance of the knife edge is integral to good knife skills. And as Pete said, knowledge and familiarity with whatever corpse is being fabricated must be a contributing factor to good knife skills, too. I'm not big on "board management", whatever the heck that means. I have a small kitchen and have no choice where it goes (beginning culinary school next week). I like to keep my cutting boards well oiled, not drying out from the soap scrub clean up.


boar_d_laze said:


> Someone suggested putting one foot forward (French Fries, IIRC) but didn't explain that the purpose was to square the line of the knife so as to be perpindicular to the line of the run of the counter, which would allow the board to be parallel to the same line, the food to be parallel to the board, and that all of that square, parallel stuff would make it easier to control the angle of the cut while managing the board itself.
> 
> Oh heck. You know what I mean.
> 
> BDL


Sounds more like OCD than board management.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Teaching (explaining) "knife skills" is somewhat analogues to teaching "social dancing", until one grasps the "fundamentals", it is frustrating to discuss "applications".

Your three topics (paraphrased) knife handling, knife care, and board handling are the "fundamentals" that allow one to understand the production of food product.

TBS, sometimes the "application" assists in the understanding of "fundamentals", besides, there is some degree of "instant gratification" that seems to be more and more essential to those, "less seasoned". /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Axel Rinder Hultman said:


> ...Sounds more like OCD than board management.


I'm "taking a little liberty here", but "board management" deals with far more than physical placement of the board, IMHO.

"Board management" (and I'll definitely defer to BDL), IMHO includes, but is not limited to:

Board selection
Board placement (non-slip, relationship to worksurface, relationship to worker, etc.
Identification and utilization of zones, i.e. raw product, processing, and processed.
Cleaning and sanitation
Care and maintenance
Far from being OCD, IMHO!


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Chef BDL,

I would say knowing which knife to use for the appropriate job would help.

Knowing your knife, the parts of it : tip, bolster, edge, heel, spine, tang....

Small tips: always cut away, never towards yourself, keep your eye on the blade, keep your fingers curled in.

Always use a cutting board and not metal or marble surfaces which can damage your blade.

Never put your knife in a sink of water....etc

I really enjoy your thread.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

This is getting interesting. 

Some good stuff from Chefs Petals and Pete.  I always learn a lot from you guys.

Alex, I'm learning from you too, but let me address the OCD thing.  Zoning the board the way Pete describes (and nearly all pros with good skills use), makes the mise flow.  Staying square to the board, allows you to zone it without knocking half your work on the floor or cutting it twice. Once you actually get the hang of it, using grip, posture, and lining up the board work so you don't waste time or hurt yourself by fighting the knife and your own body, it all makes sense.

Paranthetically, or maybe not so paranthetically, most cooking schools don't teach good knife skills.  Or at least most of the school taught cooks I've met didn't learn them there if they learned them at all.  Perhaps more importantly, the chefs (as opposed to cooks) and caterers I know agree. 

Regarding fabricating individual proteins in their respective best ways:   I'm repeating myself, but yes many of the techniques are knife skills.  More specifically, I consider choosing which knife to do which thing in which way to be a part of "knife handling."  I thought that was implicit in the way I organized the schema, then expressed in my response to Pete's first post.  But apparently not.

However, is it fair to say that butchering itself is entirely a knife skill?  Isn't knowing how an animal or primal is put together so you can take it apart and portion it (presumably with a knife) a bit beyond the scope of knife skills -- even if it's closely related?

One of the objects of this exercise is to try and find a way to relate things like why it's better to sharpen the knife you use to break fish to a different level of polish than the knife you use to portion fish, to why a French profile chef is more agile than a German profile so they make sense as related rather than completely distinct things.

Please keep the ideas coming,

BDL


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## giraffic (Jan 16, 2010)

I think cutting straight is. I don't know if it is exactly a knife skill but it is a difficult one to master. After going to culinary school, working in restaurants and cooking for the fam this is STILL something a have not mastered. I admire anyone who can cut straight and keep all their pieces uniform!


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Giraffic, go back and reread the comments regarding posture and body position. That's most of the secret.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I believe one important skill is NOT cutting yourself, and allowing no DISTRACTIONS.  In meat and fish cutting, knowing the inner parts and skeletal parts of animal or fish helps.


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

The most important knife skill for me, is one that has taken years to perfect. That is, *keeping my knives away from the desctuctive force at work in my kitchen*...mainly HubbyDearest. To this end, I have two sets of knives. One set was very cheap (I paid under $30 for 15 pieces including the block). I keep them readily available, within reach for whatever hacking he might wish to do. And these more times than not, wind up in the dishwasher. The other set, while not very high qualilty either (but adequate for my needs), is kept in a less convenient place for my own use.

Before this system was developed, I would catch him sneaking my knives back into the kitchen. Then..."oh no, it was that way _before_ I used it to pry the paint can open"...or some such other abuse.

But, he's a good guy, a real keeper. So I've simply worked out ways around his less desirable traits. These are only knives, after all. They can be replaced. He cannot. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Grace,

You'd fit right in on one of the knife forums. 

BDL


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

boar_d_laze said:


> Grace,
> 
> You'd fit right in on one of the knife forums.
> 
> BDL


Thanks...I think /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

bored_de_haze:

"Some good stuff from Chefs Petals and Pete. I always learn a lot from you guys."

Oh, so not from _me_, huh? 

bored_de_haze:

"Alex, I'm learning from you too, but let me address the OCD thing. Zoning the board the way Pete describes (and nearly all pros with good skills use), makes the mise flow. Staying square to the board, allows you to zone it without knocking half your work on the floor or cutting it twice. Once you actually get the hang of it, using grip, posture, and lining up the board work so you don't waste time or hurt yourself by fighting the knife and your own body, it all makes sense."

My name is _Axel_. Yes, it's a real name. Although I wasn't specifically named after my Swedish ancestor of the same name he did exist. It's also ancient Germanic and ancient Hebrew. Consider this: the name Axel existed in these languages before the modern word for the "car part". If you think about how much just English has changed over the last thousand years it makes sense.

I agree that zoning is important, otherwise it's easy to get lost. I have a small kitchen work space so I tackle one large component of the dish, put it in a bowl or tupperware container and move on to the next. I can see the virtue of zone management and selecting the right board, just like with knives.

bored_de_haze:

"Regarding fabricating individual proteins in their respective best ways: I'm repeating myself, but yes many of the techniques are knife skills."

A wise man (the OP) once wrote:

"Furthermore, they are interdependent to the point that a limitation to one is a limitation to all -- whether the object is pure productivity or making cooking more fun and rewarding."

"More specifically, I consider choosing which knife to do which thing in which way to be a part of "knife handling." I thought that was implicit in the way I organized the schema, then expressed in my response to Pete's first post. But apparently not."

"However, is it fair to say that butchering itself is entirely a knife skill? Isn't knowing how an animal or primal is put together so you can take it apart and portion it (presumably with a knife) a bit beyond the scope of knife skills -- even if it's closely related?"

Yes, I totally agree. The same is "what is your ability level for [such and such] fruit or vegetable?" What is your fabrication competence with [such and such] animal? Anatomical familiarity is important.

BDL:

"However, is it fair to say that butchering itself is entirely a knife skill? Isn't knowing how an animal or primal is put together so you can take it apart and portion it (presumably with a knife) a bit beyond the scope of knife skills -- even if it's closely related?"

Closely related, each requires the other. Your OP covered that succinctly.

BDL:

"One of the objects of this exercise is to try and find a way to relate things like why it's better to sharpen the knife you use to break fish to a different level of polish than the knife you use to portion fish, to why a French profile chef is more agile than a German profile so they make sense as related rather than completely distinct things."

I'm not experienced with fabrication of fish. I try to understand why the Japanese traditional knives exist and their need for a more refined edge. I very rarely even need to fillet a fish, last time was months ago (cans, pre-cut frozen, etc.) and before that was well over a year. So I shared a headless, gutted thawed salmon with someone and took out my Rada 6 inch flexible fillet knife. I believe I hadn't even honed it from its factory edge, but I'd probably prefer to use such a blade only taken to whatever grit level my India stone is, because going up to the extra-fine DMT diamond tablet makes it difficult (i.e. unsafe) to cut through the skins of tomatoes. The fillet knife is used with a slicing motion, the micro-serrations are what makes it work. That's technique and honing being closely inter-related, beyond proper knife selection. Part of the "knife handling" is the creation and maintenance of the edge, part of knife handling is the right cutting board and organizing that cutting space, part of knife handling is knowing the right way to handle that knife at a difficult/delicate part of a corpse. It's all knife handling.

If you want, boar, I've posted of of two introductory threads in the student sub-forum, there you will see my honing equipment and how far I've taken it. I know the trend (not a fad, most likely a genuine cutlery movement) is to go for higher end Japanese knives, and I kind of step back and think how many people don't even know how to hone their own knives and think the best thing for them is to keep their soft Chicagos and build a solid base on those. Personally, I love my VG1-core Calphalon Katana line honesuki. I hone that little five and a half inch traditional Japanese blade up to the DMT extra-fine smoothness and make quick and impressive work of a big turkey. I've gone through more than a few chickens without sharpening it. I've surprised myself more than once by a single, quick stroke through a turkey's hip, almost detaching the leg with one cut.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

IMHO the Chef's knife fits him/her as if it were an extension of their hand.

I find this to be very true when working with some one else' knife.

I stand there cleaning 400 PSMO's with my boning knife and don't even think about it. Sigh!!!


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

boar_d_laze said:


> I think the subject of "Knife Skills" should be broken up into three general categories. They are:
> 
> Knife handling -- including grip, posture, choice of knife, and so on;
> Sharpening -- including method and equipment; and,
> ...


oh goody....knife skills 101 !!...apparently i have enough bad knife habits that well, as bad habits go, are just bad,bad habits... maybe from laziness or lack of knowledge or being hurried , or not paying attention enough,or all of the above...specifically, most probably stance and the whole relationship of shoulder,arm, wrist...i'm thinking maybe this will be like breaking bad skiing habits.. be fun to fix....kinda like therapy...kinda......thanks for the thread bdl..this will be good, informative and funny...you mean i have to stop whacking off champagne corks with my chefs knife after this?!

joey

what's up with some cooks, mostly the 'youngbucks' and this newfangled stance they have?...facing the prep table, they start to spread their legs out to the side...kinda like doing the splits....say it helps their backs....i say their backs hurt because of the stance...and it looks friggin ridiculous all splayed out like that...especially when there's more than one monkey doing it! they must think its sexy looking, i just think its stupid....


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

BDL,

I'm going to take you at your word, and assume that one of your principal interests here is the issue of classification, i.e. how most effectively to break down the totality of kitchen knife skills.

To my mind, your breakdown is logical but problematic. Whom does it assist? The three classes are not, one might say, the same size --- "knife handling" is enormously larger and more variable than the others. Sharpening is mildly complex, but some clever guy once said that in the end it's just rubbing a piece of steel on a rock. Board management is overwhelmingly a matter of having a few solid principles, adhering to them scrupulously, and working under sufficient pressure (of speed, precision, whatever), at which point the principles become second-nature. To lump together everything else as though it were somehow equivalent strikes me as peculiar.

Now on the up side, your breakdown is clean, simple, and draws attention to two dimensions of the problem that are all too commonly ignored, i.e. sharpening and board management.

So this leads me to a basic question: What's the point of the classification? Whom is it supposed to aid? In what way should it be helpful? That sounds like three questions, but really it's all one.

Your classification, from where I sit, hides a latent argument, and tries to strengthen that argument's force by allying it to the common-sensical logic of the system. The argument is simply that sharpening and board management, things too many people ignore or consider trivial, are fundamental parts of knife usage, and woe betide those who don't accept this. The common-sense structure of the system you've composed reinforces this: it says that knife skills rest on three foundations, separated in effect by where they stand in relation to the knife physically --- in the cut, before cutting (on the stone), after cutting (and you could re-divide in several other ways to get the same common-sensical result).

So far, so good. But if your aim is a classification that does something else, something other (and more) than insist on the importance of sharpening and board management, this system isn't going to work very well.

So what _do_ you want it to do? For whom? Why?


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

boar_d_laze said:


> I think the subject of "Knife Skills" should be broken up into three general categories. They are:
> 
> Knife handling -- including grip, posture, choice of knife, and so on;
> Sharpening -- including method and equipment; and,
> ...


I would switch #2 to # 1. After you know how to maintain a knife the other aspects should start to fall in to place with much more ease. You should not learn how to handle a dull knife or else you will develop bad habits.

My impression of the culinary graduate students I have employed through the years is dismal at best. Most I have encountered feel that the brand of knife they have purchased is on a level to there culinary skills and level of chefdom.

Board management is an optimal skill for all working chefs which should be a major part in all school training IMO. The reason we can do what others can not is due to the fact that we can consistently produce a large volume of hand prepared cuts quickly and multi task into other areas of our kitchen production.

A good example of board management is breaking down 50# of onions medium or fine. Set up and flow are important so a pro chef will take a half hour on a slow cruise while an unskilled worker after band aides will take an hour and have lousy cuts. The flow and position of food on the board come much more naturally to the sharp knife than the dull knife user.

With western knives steeling is a fine art when production levels are high.

For owner operators these skills can be the break point IMO...............


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

I used to carry alot of band-aids in my pocket when I was teaching knife skills!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## critter (Aug 17, 2010)

Awsome stuff about knife skills, it's realy helping with my project. I'm now focusing on the pinch grip. I may have a solution!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Sanitation.

How do you sanitize the knife?

How do you sanitize the cutting board?

No BSing here now, I've visited culinary schools where the instructor cuts on a wood-topped *table,* wipes it down with a rag, and walks away.

I don't want to get into an arguement about wood vs nylon. But I want to know, EXACTLY from the knife wielder who's been breaking down chickens on a cutting board, how they plan to sanitize the board.

Food knowldege:

As others have said, a good knowledge of ingredients and materials is just as important as knife skills.

Car driving skills are next to useless if you can't read, and a sharp suitable knife just sits there if you don't how to properly prepare the food required.

How do you break down a whole salmon into s/less, b'less 4 0z portions? How many people have I shown how to cut stone fruit (peaches, plums, etc) into sections or slices suitable for pies, tarts, etc., or how to skin a melon?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I think the most important knife is a paring knife. It follows then that I think the most important knife skills are those which utilize a paring knife.

With a paring knife you can peel fast. You can also flute as well as you would with a fluting knife. Of course all the other small fancy cuts like tourne and "garlic" shape. Veggie carvings, dicing shallots and small onions. You can bone chicken, scale fish, peel zest, and it is a very accurate probe when inserted into a roast and set to the lower lip.

Of course you can do the same with other knives, but if you develop proficiency with a paring knife, that's all you need. It's like the Swiss Army Knife of knives! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rollsmile.gif


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

two more cents worth...

 i think its more about the person handling the knife and their skills rather then the knife itself...they are the real magicians not the knife...or not...of course whatever the knife, wherever its made, it has to be sharp..

joey

 p.s. ed, think you are so right on about knowing your subjects anatomy(fish, butchering meat etc)....now learning to debone a chicken, i would love to know...i think that is some sexy knife work there!


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## skizz44 (Aug 17, 2010)

1) precision

2) Speed

3) Keep your edge

4) Make sure you have a decent knife

5) good board

6) DONT CUT YOURSELF!


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> I think the subject of "Knife Skills" should be broken up into three general categories. They are:
> 
> Knife handling -- including grip, posture, choice of knife, and so on;
> Sharpening -- including method and equipment; and,
> ...


Back to the original question

I have small thin hands and when I started out thirty years ago I was kinda of a joke holding that large 14 inch Chef knife.I used to hold my hand so close to the bolster just to get a handle on this knife! Anyhow...now that my wrists and speed have developed along with all the calluses...I can hold my knife at the proper place on the second rivet ( I'm old school ....my knives still have rivets!) High Carbon Steel is a relatively recent development that combines the advantages of carbon to take and keep a keener edge and the fact that it is stainless steel means that it will not discolor or rust readily

Posture....Everyone has their own ...I've seen it all! I don't have much of a posture anymore ...but I would highly suggest standing straight and do not hunch over so much...well I guess if your tall and the prep table is low ..what can you do...that hunch will follow you through your life!

Sharpening again old school for me it's the diamond -impregnated sharpening stone...

Boards...I love the wood ones...but sanitation laws are getting outta control here and we are being forced to resort to different coloured boards for different foods. Chicken -yellow ,Seafood-blue,Beef-red,Dairy/Bread-white,Vege-green

Can you believe it?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hey what happened to our culinary student?  The one who posted his full name, Axel Hultman or something?

-I like the way he was so, uh... honest with his opinions, and liberal with his views.

-I like the way he posted his full name

-I like the way he posted his full name and his views on a public forum that would include any future employers in the Minnesotta area.  I mean, once school is out........

With an attitude like that, he's too good for a kitchen, might make a good Sysco rep though...... .


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Pump,

NCNQUMB (nasty chuckle not quite under my breath).  

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Be nice, boys. Axel has only been absent about 24 hours, which is trivial.

Incidentally, Axel should not have to apologize for his name. Anyone but me remember the "Axel Foley theme" by Engelbert Humperdinck (the modern one) for "Beverly Hills Cop"? [try playing that on C Eb C C F C Bb- C G C C G# G Eb C G C+ C Bb- Bb- G- D C]


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

hey..EXCUUSSE me!

 axel is and should be proud, as we all should be, of, lineage, heritage and brains....he is young, smart,and opinionated, and is here to explore and expand and share his /our views...shame on you for not seeing or accepting anything outside your own tunneled visioned brain...sometimes i get  pissed off and tired of that unfair slant on things...i  personally salute our young talent and axels spirit...liberal is a good thing as well as young beautiful thinking minds..yo, what happened to you ?...too sad  for you if you do not remember your youth..way too sad, and a waste....

with all due respect,

joey


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Durangojo,

I have no beef with you, but....

You want I should make fun of your name?

Take some cheap shots at your postings?

Maybe find fault with some coma splice?

I don't and I won't but if I did, I'd do it in a manner a little less aggressive.

I read through Axel's posts and automatically I think of having him sit infront of me, portfolio spread out, or having him in my kitchen--doing what he does here--with my staff , and I think: Do I actually want someone like this in my kitchen?

Granted, a Sysco rep _*IS*_ a bit harsh though.....


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris, I think in a general sense, this is useful to anyone with less than good knife skills -- that includes me and 99.2% of everyone who's ever held a knife. Maybe I misunderstand the gist of what you're saying, but I think it works when you're talking about the general principles of knife skills as it pertains to efficiency, proficiency and, well... fun! As you zoom into the minutiae of specific knife skills it might not work as well. I don't know. But the the theory of relativity doesn't hold up very well when you zoom in either -- and that's still useful. Structure (categorization) doesn't have to be perfect under all circumstances to be practical.

To me, this feels like an extension of _mis en place_. Maybe it already is and I just don't know it. At any rate, it should be: preparation of equipment for use, layout, efficiency, organization. What more is there?

As an aside, I ordered a club sandwich today from a deli that I've always had the good sense to avoid. The entire sandwich was prepared with a bread knife. Ironically, the bread was pre-sliced. That's officially one person who could benefit from Knife Skills Finishing School.

+D.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Before touching any knife to any fish, learn the skeletal features of the fish. I have even seen on Top Chef and Chopped  where some of them mangle the poor fish. The excuse seems to be "I very rarely work with this type" or'' I am used to working with large fish"., please respect the mentality of the viewer, don't BS us, and I don't care where or how you stand.


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## kvonnj (Aug 3, 2010)

"Axel Foley theme" by Engelbert Humperdinck (the modern one) for "Beverly Hills Cop"? [try playing that on C Eb C C F C Bb- C G C C G# G Eb C G C+ C Bb- Bb- G- D C]

It's called, _"Axel F"_ and it's by Germen electronic Jazz musician Harold Faltermeyer... not lounge singer Engelbert Humperdinck.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

so sorry foodpump, 

think i may have over reacted..i definately did not read axels' post the same way as you, until i reread it...i still defend the right to be young and free thinking, but certainly not rude! (especially, not to one's elders!!)...again, my aplologies...

joey


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

First, thanks to eveyone who's contributing. Learning what and how you think is very helpful.

All righty then...

All I'm saying about board, knife handling, and knife maintenance (including sharpening) is that they are interdependent to a ridiculously huge degree. That is, a failure in one area will hugely impact the cutter's productivity.

The comments of people who post here, FF, the KF, eGullet, etc., lead me to believe that board and knife maintenance skills are woefully under appreciated -- and not only by amateurs. The knife reviews posted in CT in the Announcement thread was eye opening.

Chris is right that as categories, maintenance and board skills are so much simpler as to be qualitatively different than knife handling -- especially when you consider all the topics I sort of crammed in there. see that as good news about maintenance and would see it the same way about sharpening if sharpening wasn't such a bottomless pit of equipment as technique -- and yes, if you were in doubt the "rubbing on a rock" thing is a poor thing but mine own.

The simplicity of board management can be deceptive and cause you to undervalue its importance. Unless and until you view cooking as a flow going from raw ingredients to plated dish -- a pro's perspective, indeed -- using the board properly might not make sense.

What can I tell you? It's the heart of mise en place. Learning to create and use mise is a huge key to cooking better for advanced beginner and intermediate home cooks. Helping you guys cook better is what the BDL _persona_ and CFG project are all about.

Going forward with that... Yes. There's a lot to it. I'd like to break it down enough and provide enough general background so that people who have questions know enough to ask them. We had a thread on knife skills going with several suggestions to learn to "pinch grip," but without any explanation given as to why it would help.

Had the OP asked "How do I keep my knuckles off the board?" Or, "What's the first step in learning to score a shallot with a 270mm chef's?"

The answer, "Learn to pinch" would have been a perfectly legitimate if somewhat bald.

For a lot of reasons, a few of them good, I've done a lot of posting and writing about knives and knife skills -- and apparently have become somewhat identified with the subjects. It would be nice to be of enough assistance so people can move forward with their cooking. At the very least, it should make sense. So very few people -- with the exception of Chris Ward and three or four others -- seem to make a good job of it.

Finally, and just for Chris Lehrer's sake: Perhaps it would help to blend a Kantian with the Hegelian perspective of "categories." That is, mine are _as much categorical imperatives as a quadratic theory of knife skills_. For anyone else who gets that... you're very, very sick.

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_when presented with a moral dillemna _

When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, sing and shout! Works every time.

Who, please, is Phillipa Foot???

But on topic, I think, that one of the problems is that most people do not think of board management as a knife skill. Sure, knives are essential to getting the job done, but it's a station-management skill, or an organizational skill, or just a prep-skill for most people. So, by throwing that in with knife-skills you kind of obfuscate the subject.

I also think that for most people, when you say "knife skills," they immediately think in terms of the methods and techniques of physically using knives. Knife sharpness, in this context, is not a skill, but a given. So when you emphasize the techniques and skills of sharpening a knife (which is a different skill set from using the knife), you are moving away from knife skills.

So, yes, choice of knife size and configuration; and how you move it, and even how you stand, all contribute to how skillfully you use your knives. But board management? Puleeze! I can be the worst knife worker in the world and have an efficiently managed board. And, vice-versa, I can be an exquisite knife worker, and have a sloppy board. The two are related as to cooking effieciency, but do not define each other.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

There are boards I would not allow my knives on. It is up to the skilled master and their set of knives. Chefs have a personal attachment to their knives.That is why I sharpen my own....I had a carving knife come back almost half it's size after trusting someone else for sharpening and well back to the grind stone for me...I love it anyhow!

A bartender decided to raid my knives...( bad move)....His little cutting board in his bar was ...well already on it's way out

My boning knife cut right through his board after an hour of cutting his little fruits....and came back to me a little bloody /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Last time he'll raid a Chefs knives and not have a proper board to cut on ...

My personal preference of knife is the Chef knife .....you can pretty much do anything with that and if you can not you need to sharpen up your knife and skills

Gypsy


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Phatch,

Sorry about the now deleted reference to Philippa Foot, she's an academic philosopher associated with analytic Ethics. 

I appreciate your comments but very much disagree with some of what you said about board management.  You cannot have geat knife skills and a messy board.  The kitchen is not like an office where an organized mind and messy desk can coexist.  Skills are synonymous with precision, consistency and speed.  "Messy" impairs each and all of them . 

A common example is the knife tip cutting into food which has already been  processed.  We've all done it, especially with food which sticks to the knife, only to get pushed off by following cuts.  We also all know, the longer we allow the pile of cut food to stay near the food we're cutting, the worse it's going to get; and the only way to fully deal with it is to wipe whatever's on the knife into the pile and move the pile into a bowl.  

Another, which is also revealing of how posture interacts with knife handling and board management, is having the board so jammed up the cutter cannot hold the food at an angle facilitating (or even allowing) consistent cuts.  Posture?  Bear with me.  If the cutter doesn't have the offhand foot forward, (a) the natural angle of the knife will not be square to the board; consequently (b) the flow will run diagonally from corner to corner rahter than side to side (left to right, for instance); which (c) uses top and bottom space as well as side to side (the old left to right); furthermore (d) the food cannot be efficiently transferred and/or must be transferred more frequently; and if the clutter is not removed or straightened, (e) cutting will become inconsistent.

The surface of the board doesn't have to be perfectly geometric, but it does have to be at least organized; and stuff that's processed either needs to be pushed out of the way, or removed.   There is no "out of the way" on a sloppy board.  

Believe me boss, if there's a way to keep a disorganzed board and work efficiently I will find it. 

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_You cannot have geat knife skills and a messy board._

Aha! You're doing it again. It's a form of circular reasoning. We can accept your triad, in which case there is no room for disagreement (how could there be; you have co-opted the field). Or we can look at alternatives to the meaning of the phrase "knife skills".

You want to insist that anything which contributes to smooth work flow is a knife skill. And that's where you're losing people. As I said, above, knife skills, for the majority of people, are interpreted to mean, "how do I physically use the knife." That's why *having *a sharp knife is part of knife skills, but _*actually*_ *sharpening it *refers to a different skills set.

If we accept that as a more meaningful definition, then what you cannot have, with a messy board, is overall efficiency. But your knife skills can be excellent.

Board management is only associated with knife skills if speed is an issue (which, of course, it often is in a professional environment). Take out the speed factor, though, and you're left with the possibility of great knife skill (that is, the ability to use the knife) and a messy board. The fact that I have to pause, often, to clear the board has no effect on my ability to cut clean lines, to have all pieces matched as to size, etc.

You ever seen Morimoto convert a diakon into a sheet of paper? He does it up in the air. Theoretically he could have a board covered with debris, and it would not affect his ability to do that. Would you argue that his knife skills are lacking because of a dirty board? Good luck with that!

Now, let's take your argument to the absurd. I'm going to boil some potatoes. My work flow is to dice the spuds, piling them in an open spot on the board, then transfer them to the pot of water. Using your definition, the location of the pot would be part of my knife skills. After all, it contributes just as much to total efficiency as does board management. Are you willing to argue in favor of that?

Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing against board management. Like you, I beleive it to be an important aspect of efficient work flow. Where we disagree is simply over whether or not board management is a knife skill.

_If the cutter doesn't have the offhand foot forward, (a) the natural angle of the knife will not be square to the board; _

I think you are doing this correctly, BDL, but envisioning it wrong. Merely moving the offhand foot straight forward will not accomplish the change in angle you describe. To maximize the natural angle of the knife remaining square to the board, the offhand foot should be forward and angled (parallel to a lower left/upper right diagonal on the board). Long term, this can become uncomfortable, unless the other foot is also at a similar angle.

Ultimately, perhaps without realizing it, you are standing diagonally to the board.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Mise en Place ......"everything in it's place".....Morimoto on television is Hollywood version of what really goes on in his kitchen and just about everyone elses.....he is meticulous about precision and keeping a clean board in a real live kitchen in one of his kitchens...no debris flying around and no sanitation out the window.


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## critter (Aug 17, 2010)

I have come up with a way to eliminate the calluses permenatly, no band aids or tape ever again.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

critter said:


> I have come up with a way to eliminate the calluses permenatly, no band aids or tape ever again.


Leme guess, a molded plastic thing-a-ma-bob that clamps onto the spine and has a thumb and finger stop/rest/hole/whatever and is available in right or left versions for only $19.95 today only, right?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

A lot of the the better Japanese knives have their spines rounded over so they don't cause blisters and calluses. 

If your knives' spines aren't relieved, you can do it yourself with sandpaper, a small rotary tool, or even on your stones.  I've done it with all my knives.  Easy peasy.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

KY,

We're going to have to agree to disagree about some of what you wrote; I accept most of the rest as another, valid opinion; and don't want to waste bandwidth with a discussion of argument schema.

Allow me though to set one thing straight, and that's "proper" foot position. I did and do in fact mean that the offhand foot should be a step ahead of the cutting hand's foot -- with both feet facing forward. The idea is indeed to turn the shoulders and chest to an angle with the counter and board, which make the natural cutting action square to them.

It seems counter-intuitive and uncomfortable, but...

You can try this yourself in your computer chair mock chopping your desk with the flat of your hand. Rotate your chest so your right shoulder is back (if you're right handed), lean in like you were leaning over your board and chop your desk. See?

If you watch "classically trained" cooks like Jacques Pepin, Hubert Keller, Eric Ripert, etc., work, you'll see that is how they do it. Chopping food, not desks. _Et bien_, maybe desks too.

BDL

PS. My apologies for double posting, but I didn't want one idea to get lost in the other.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The rounded top side is known as a "crowned spine".

And I don't know why BDL apologizes to me in post 40 as this is my first post in this thread.

Just giggling along /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I confused you with KY.  It's his fault. 

Don't tase me bro,

BDL


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

i sometimes(after long hours of prepping...god it is just endless), i  raise my' offhand' foot to rest on the bottom of a prep table, as it seems to some how equalize my stance and lessen back strain(at least temporarily)..i sqoonch up close and equal to the table,better and straighter perhaps,and it keeps me closer and straighter to the food, for a short time at least...then i switch off to the other foot, then both feet back flat on the mat forward...then the process begins again...how the hell do those old guys do that it day long?...or how did they? love to watch them work though..they really seem to enjoy themselves with the working company they keep...inspirational really..pepin, bocasse, forgione, ripert....chefs are right on in my book and great teachers as well....hope i didn't travel too far off path here...guess i have a habit of doing that, or sticking my foot in my mouth! so it it a bad thing opting for the foot rest?is there a certain distance you should be from the food your chopping? really? i'm still listening...just tired...thanks for all the information and all the opionions...

joey


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I confused you with KY. It's his fault. _

I take responsibility but not blame!


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_The idea is indeed to turn the shoulders and chest to an angle with the counter and board, which make the natural cutting action square to them. _

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Your upper body is on a diagonal, in relationship to the board.

If your feet are straight forward, the only way to accomplish that is to physically twist your upper body from the waist. If you can do that without it being tiring, good luck to you. I don't know anyone who does it that way. Instead, their feet are at an angle (yes, with the offhand foot forward---that's a given). This puts the whole body on a diagonal, which is much less fatiguing.

Some people have the offhand foot straight, but the trailing foot is at an angle, which, again, is more restful than twisting from the waist.

But, whatever works for you.

I think the thing we agree on is that posture is an integral part of knife skills, and that being at an angle to the board is a postive step.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

....._or sticking my foot in my mouth! _

Ach, Joey, Joey, Joey. Not a position conducive to good knife work. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Knife skills....great thoughts behind all the posts here and a great topic. It's one thing that I think is most overlooked in many mainstream settings today. The risk management folks or Accident Reduction Specialits Expert or ARSE for short is doing all they can to hinder the development but I believe it has to do with the haste that many feel they need to exhibit in ;earning and progressing through the ranks. How many of ya'll out there sat infront of a prep table and peeled, sliced and diced hundreds of pounds of vegetable before even coming close to actual cooking. I know I did.

Cut gloves and latex or rubber gloves do so much to hinder the development. Cooking is with all your senses and touch is the second most important regarding knife skills. Cuts have to be expected....that's how one developes the skills and also developes the respect for the knife. Without respect, only fear can really be present. I admit a nice chainmail glove is great when breaking down seafood and a huge slab of meat but that's where it's usefulness ends. At some point you have to feel your way through the food and it can't be done without contact from your naked hand. 

I believe my knife skills were above average. I overcame my fear and the knife eventually became an extension of my hand.... almost as important and articulate as a thumb. Sadly tho, because of several attempts to correct issues through surgury....my hands are a fraction of what they were even 10 years ago. I even sliced my left pinkey rather seriously 3 days ago becaus it wandered into the path of the knife.

It's been far too long for me regarding what I was taught. This makes it difficult to pick out any set of reasons why I believe skills are lacking. As far as what I think is important to explain to folks?????? Like I said in the beginning, there are some great toughts already provided. But if I had to name a couple of my basics.....they'd be patience, cleanliness and organization, recognizing the correct knife for the job at hand (guilty myself of never letting my Chef's knife out of my hand) and attention to detail. Rustic may be a nice theme but not for everything.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

ky,

you probably don't even want to see the way my feet go on the foot pedals driving...drives my husband absolutely bonkers! but in the kitchen,my feet are at an angle, atleast my offhand one is, atleast i think it is...this thread has helped me pay a bit more attention. i know i don't stand straight up to the edge, like at attention...the foot that i rest on the lower prep table shelf, is well, turned out a bit from the hip..when i do that it helps relieves the hip strain when i still have mountains and mountains of chopping left to do and no time to do anything but breath...do think that the flooring material plays a huge part in fatique, which plays into stance as you try to compensate for bad flooring in the first place, which plays into, not necessarily knife skills themselves, but the whole economy of movement...by bad flooring, i mean, cement, satillo tiles, and on boats, the oh so beautiful marble.....all killers...think i would prefer a cut or burn to a strained back...now i try and avoid both....

does anyone use a mezzaluna? or did they ever? is it a european thing...why do they even try to sell them to home cooks? guess, cuz they can...tried one once...not for me..all that rocking going on..i can chop/mince faster and finer with my small clever....day all

joey


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Joey, my mom used what we'd now call a single-bladed mezzaluna, but which she just called a chopper. That and a wooden bowl produced the best chicken liver pate you'll ever get to eat.

Me, I was always more oriented to knives than gadgets, so never picked it up.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

color me stupid, but how does one go about keeping an edge on a serrated knife? specifically, a bread knife....thanks

joey


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Durangojo,

Shockingly (clutch those pearls), it depends on the type of serrations. 

Most wavy bread knives are sharpened on one side only and can be sharpened on the tooth and inside the scallop with slip stones, sharpening steels and "V" sticks (like the Spyderco Sharpmaker). 

Ordinary, tightly serrated knives -- steak knives, tomato knives, etc. -- sharpen well enough with the right tools.  For instance, some of the Chef's Choice machines.

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Does a bread knife _have _to be sharpened?

My only experience is with a LamsonSharp Rosewood. It's three years old, and cuts exactly as it did the day I got it.

Configuration, though, is unlike any other I've seen. It's not wavy scallops and points. Instead, the effect is as if a regular one-side-only blade had triangular teeth welded in place on the filed edge. Rather as if a rip-saw had been laid in place on a chisel edge.

I don't own any other serrated knives, so have nothing to compare it to.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

durangojo said:


> i sometimes(after long hours of prepping...god it is just endless), i raise my' offhand' foot to rest on the bottom of a prep table, as it seems to some how equalize my stance and lessen back strain(at least temporarily)..i sqoonch up close and equal to the table,better and straighter perhaps,and it keeps me closer and straighter to the food, for a short time at least...then i switch off to the other foot, then both feet back flat on the mat forward...then the process begins again...how the hell do those old guys do that it day long?...or how did they? love to watch them work though..they really seem to enjoy themselves with the working company they keep...inspirational really..pepin, bocasse, forgione, ripert....chefs are right on in my book and great teachers as well....hope i didn't travel too far off path here...guess i have a habit of doing that, or sticking my foot in my mouth! so it it a bad thing opting for the foot rest?is there a certain distance you should be from the food your chopping? really? i'm still listening...just tired...thanks for all the information and all the opionions...
> 
> joey


Ahhhh Joey..... I am guilty of the exact same foot on the bottom shelf myself! Try not to let anyone else see..... as I am a big advocate of perfect posture and standing straight at the board. That stance does help with old sciatica.....after a few hours into prep


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

gypsy2727 said:


> Ahhhh Joey..... I am guilty of the exact same foot on the bottom shelf myself! Try not to let anyone else see..... as I am a big advocate of perfect posture and standing straight at the board. That stance does help with old sciatica.....after a few hours into pre


Hm, perhaps this is an addition to "Board Management", i.e. that there is an optimum board height for each individual and the technique(s) that can be used to adjust board height in commercial/residential kitchens?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

No question you're right, Pete. Except it's rare in the home kitchen that there are ways to adjust board height.

Sure, you can make them higher, by putting something under them. But that's usually not the problem. Rather, it's that standard counter top height, plus the thickness of the board, makes the surface too high for many people. And short of standing on a step stool (talk about bad posture!), there's not much they can do.

Take Friend Wife, for instance. She'd love nothing better than a cutting board about 2 1/2 inches lower. But short of building her her own prep station, what can we do?


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

boar_d_laze said:


> I think the subject of "Knife Skills" should be broken up into three general categories. They are:
> 
> Knife handling -- including grip, posture, choice of knife, and so on;
> Sharpening -- including method and equipment; and,
> ...


BDL I am a great fan of your posts but I have to disagree with you on this one.

I am not a knife enthusiast and I am certainly no expert on knives but when I think about the subject of "Knife Skills" I take the words "Knife" and "Skills" and I think about them. On that basis your categorisation is off the mark. Sharpening and board management are not "Knife Skills".

Sharpening may well be a skill involving a knife but that depends on how you interpret "knife skills". Sharpening can also be a "stone skill". Many cooks/chefs don't know how or have never sharpened a knife but they posess great knife skills.

Board management relates more directly to food prep or mise en place and could also be called, wait for it, "board skills". A board is a board and a knife is a knife.

Knife handling is about the closest to "knife skills" but if you want to break down definitions they are vaguely dissimilar. Knife handling does play a part in "knife skills" so that would be my first category along with butchering, filleting, slicing, dicing and, erm, cutting.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Hm, IMLE, a "knife" isn't worth much without being sharp AND working with a board or other surface!


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## the-boy-nurse (Aug 9, 2010)

> Finally, and just for Chris Lehrer's sake: Perhaps it would help to blend a Kantian with the Hegelian perspective of "categories." That is, mine are _as much categorical imperatives as a quadratic theory of knife skills_. For anyone else who gets that... you're very, very sick.
> 
> BDL


I thought Hegelianism was a triadic theory.-

Kidding, I'm not sick, I actually had to look that up to know what you were talking about. Which might make me sicker-

Based on the above philosophical arguments of whether board management fits into knife skills sounds like the holistic ys synergy argument. While KY you seem more of the opinion that knife skills, while only understandable as part of the whole in cooking preparation, one can separate out that set in the equation and the individual set remains unchanged. While BDL's statements seem to conclude that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts and one cannot remove or add greater emphasis to any single component, without significant impact upon the whole system. As an amateur cook, to be quite honest, it does not really matter how you define it as long is I can learn it. That being the case it seems a synergistic approach is more appropriate (at least for me) as it would help to cultivate a greater understanding of the symbiotic relationship between efficient prep and quality food.

OK I have to admit I used the word symbiotic just to sound cool.


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Hm, IMLE, a "knife" isn't worth much without being sharp AND working with a board or other surface!


Pete.

You are correct, but we are being asked our thoughts on the subject of "knife skills" and not a knife's worth or working with a board. This all sounds very pedantic and in my opinion, if "knife skills" needs to be categorised it should be done accurately.

the-boy-nurse

Symbiotic, a very cool word. I'll google it one day.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_That being the case it seems a synergistic approach is more appropriate (at least for me) as it would help to cultivate a greater understanding of the symbiotic relationship between efficient prep and quality food._

Actually, my concern is in communicating, in clear, concise English.

The argument is neither about taking an holistic or synergistic approach to cooking. It's about defining terms so that we're all using the same language.

If you want to take a synergistic approach, the way you use the term, then you'd have to accept my earlier example that the pot of boiling water is part of "knife skills." Do you actually think that's so?

My contention is that, for most people, if you say "knife skills" it's interpreted to mean "skill with a knife." Thus, again returning to an earlier example, a sharp knife is an essential part of that skill. But knowing how to make that knife sharp is not. It's a totally different skill set, and most cooks---amateur and professional--not only lack that skill set, are disinterested in learning it.

Or we can take BDL's argument and work backwards. If I send my knife out to a knife guy as necessary, than the knife guy is part of my knife skills. So the continuum would now be: knife guy, cut the potatoes, put them in the pot of water, turn on heat. Which, of course, makes the stove part of my knife skills as well.

The point is, you can make the term "knife skills" as baggy as you want. But, sooner or later (mostly sooner, IMO) you'll have crammed so much into that bag that nobody but you knows what's in there.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_a "knife" isn't worth much without being sharp AND working with a board or other surface!_

So then, Pete, my friends who peel veggies with a knife while leaning over a trash can, are using knives that aren't worth much because there's no board involved?

And, what if I had sharpened that knife before they started peeling? Does it also mean the knife isn't worth much because, although sharp, the user isn't the one who'd done the sharpening?


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

How we adjust board height--- I am tall some of the guys  are short . Work all day with board to low and you will feel it at night or next day   Take the table and stand its legs on assorted size cans or bricks.  Or take a dish rack put it on damp towel on top of table  put another damp towel on top of that,  then put the board. No more stiff or aching back.   Works for us.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes Ed ,

I use the old towel trick myself it does work. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif Padded flooring in newer kitchens help out with the back too.if we are so lucky to work in one.

Although some people may have a different opinion...boards, shapening and knife skills go hand in hand. (How punny of me)

A crappy board can hinder your knife skills. (Unless of course you came into this industry to sit over a garbage pail for the rest of your life and peel potatoes or continuosly cut in mid air) Walk into a professional kitchen not knowing how to sharpen your knives ...well good luck with that...ain't nobody going to babysit that notion.

Just a thought

Gypsy


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Take a deep breath and think of my proposal more as one way -- but not the only way -- of viewing the knife-centric part of the kitchen universe rather than a rigid _*T*heory *O*f *K*nife *E*verything_ where a single inconsistency means the entire _TOKE_ sucks.

Obviously "relatedness" may be carried too far -- which just goes to show even Scalia can _write_ and be right (_HJ v. Northwestern_, IIRC). On the other hand, just because someone wins a set with a great serve and a big forehand, doesn't mean the backhand isn't an essential part of tennis.

_*Durangojo and Gypsy:*_ I despair. Whoever told you that you were supposed to keep your body square to the board and counter, and your feet lined up evenly with the toe boards lied. For most people, most of the time, that's a terrible position. It's not "classic" position, either.

BDL


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

bdl, 

you know, yesterday as i was madly prepping all day, i did take stock/inventory of my stance and all things knife related...i've decided i'm just fine, so please, don't despair! i don't stand straight to anything,(and i don't even have toe boards, or want to have them).... nothing in my 'historic' kitchen space is even remotely level....i adjust naturally...of course, there is always room for improvement, i'm just not gonna worry about it right now...right now, i got bigger fish to fry!...literally...thanks though

joey


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

BDL.

           thanks for the concern buddy....After 30 years in a pro kitchen I have figured out that good posture is important....I do not remember mentioning anything regarding square to anything...Just my approach of standing straight to the board ...well after that when ya figure out what your going to do...... you can do whatever ya want ..."do a little dance make a little love.....get down tonight! " Throw food up in the air.... in your hair, hang out with the knife sharpening girls.... whatever ! Heck I know great chefs who stick their arse so far out when they are on the line it makes me wonder if there is a whole other person infront of them ...either that or they are in mating season!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Gypsy and Joey

If you're happy, I'm happy. Hint taken.

BDL


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

KYH, I still don't follow. 

Different people have different ways of doing things -- that's a given, right?  But you'll still have to categorize.  Even if it's just one specific subject you'll still have to bracket information unless you think you can sell a book consisting of a one sentence truism.  Hopefully you agree with this much?

Now if I'm not mistaken, this whole structure isn't about knives, per se.  It's about connecting the various process involved when using a knife for the sake of work flow and all the enjoyment that comes with it.  And it's also about connecting those processes with enough background and depth so that people who aren't particularly proficient (or efficient) in certain areas can start thinking about the importance of process in a more meaningful way.  If you need to include elements that are one degree separated from using a knife in the kitchen then you do so.

Does that mean that every part has to conform to the habits of every user?  Course not.  Any comprehensive book, almost by definition, will not be all things for all poeple.  But to illustrate a point about the utility of broad categorization, I peel fruit and veggies over a trash can all the time.  Pretty much every day.  Still, I have no problem with BDLs structure.  Is it broad?  Yup.  Does that mean it's not useful?  Maybe, maybe not.  That's dependent on content to be written and how it's presented.  I can tell you this much:  despite the convenience of cutting over the trash I still use a cutting board for the majority of my prep.  And so do the vast majority of people who cook.  You can't effectively slice meat or dice onions or mince parsley or garlic over the trash.  So it would seem that the process of managing the cutting surface would be relevant enough for inclusion.  So long as it's only one degree removed from using the knife in your hand.

Same with sharpening.  If someone else does your sharpening then that's a category that doesn't necessarily apply the same way as to someone who does.  Maybe it doesn't apply at all.  But it doesn't obviate the importance of a sharp knife.

Note to BDL:  There's two things that this thread has demonstrated which, IMHO, are worthy of consideration:

1.  Categorization:  many people who are accomplished in their own right already have their own ideas about how all these parts fit together in the grand scheme of the universe -- people generally don't like to change the way they think and it's unfair to ask them to considering that theoretical frameworks are neither right nor wrong.  Some are just more useful under a given set of circumstances and some are just closer to Occam's mirror polished razor (another discussion, ha ha).  If you present it as definitive exposition it will probably be rejected by too many people who have their own framework.  And that's a lot of people.

With the above in mind it might be more -- palatable?  if the different subjects were left with dangling ends to be assembled as a "kit of parts" rather than a tightly woven treatise.  In other words, if people can take your advice and create their own system or assimilate it into their own system, using your methods as a starting point and a guide, I think would benefit both newbies who have very little experience and people who are 70% there but still need some help in specific areas.  I don't know how you do that and you very well might not agree but it's just my long winded 2 cents on that.

2.  The heading, "Knife Skills".  IMO, that's being interpreted too literally. You might want to reconsider that title to include or emphasize "Process" or "Methods" before people open the cover.  "Knife Skills" by itself apparently means different things to different people.  When you read Amazon reviews you see a lot of 1 star reviews beginning with "I thought this book was going to be about...."


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

Speaking of Occam's.  I unwittingly duplicated info just above but with many more words.  

I have one stone.  It's 1000 grit.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Doug, while much of what you say is correct, I don't see how it's at all germane.

Nobody is writing a book about this that I'm aware of. It's a tightly drawn thread on a forum discussion. The title of the thread is "Your Thoughts on the Most Important Knife Skills." Which makes it very much about knives, per se, and how they are used.

_It's about connecting the various process involved when using a knife for the sake of work flow and all the enjoyment that comes with it. _

This is the crux of any disagreement. Look at the title of the thread. That doesn't imply anything about efficient work flow overall. It very specifically names knife skills as the only subject under discussion. So, it isn't about connecting various processes. It's all about what knife skills are. Period.

Within the opening post, however, BDL breaks "knife skills" into three parts. If that's how his thoughts on the most important knife skills run, fine for him. My thoughts, however, are that two of the three categories are, at best, only periferally related to knife skills. Can they contribute to overall work efficiency? You betcha! But they are not knife skills (a phrase that, for most people, connotes "knife handling").

Every thought I've expressed has gone directly to the topic of the thread; not to a topic you'd like the thread to be about. You can, for instance, argue (as BDL does) that board management is a knife skill, and be on topic. But once you say that board management is only a related process, you have conceded, definitionally, that it is not a knife skill---and, therefore, does not belong as part of this discussion.

If people want to change the nature of the discussion from knife skills to efficiency in the kitchen they are free to do so. But changing the shape of the playing field doesn't negate what I've said about knife skills; it merely broadens the discussion to include how those skills apply in an efficient kitchen.

What disturbs me is that some people do, indeed, change the shape of the field. And then smugly point out how a poster is wrong because what he said previously does not fit the new configuration.

You're kind of doing that yourself. You want the field to include everything that happens immediately before and immediately after I use a knife. Isn't that how you define "one degree removed.....?" Obviously, you want the field shaped that way just so your points appear valid and mine not.

That aside, look at it this way. Transferring prepped food from the board to a bowl is something everyone agrees is part of board management. You are arguing that it's therefore part of knife skills (one degree removed+cut the food, move it to a bowl). However, physically it is no different than my example of moving diced spuds to a pot of water. Using your structure, moving diced spuds to a pot of water is only one degree removed from using the knife in my hand. And thus is part of "knife skills."

You can't have it both ways. And if you keep shoving things into that bag, pretty soon it will be too heavy to lift.

_Same with sharpening..............__But it doesn't obviate the importance of a sharp knife._

Just a sly way of changing the shape of the field. Show me one place where I've said having a sharp knife is unimportant. I've got a hundred bucks waiting for every example you can come up with. One of the points I've been making right along is that having a sharp knife is an important part, to my mind *the most important part (*you do remember the subject of this discussion, don't you), of knife skill. But when you're standing in front of your board julienning veggies, how that knife got sharp is totally irrelevent to how well you do the job.

_The heading, "Knife Skills". IMO, that's being interpreted too literally. You might want to reconsider that title to include or emphasize "Process" or "Methods" before people open the cover. _

The best example yet of changing the shape of the field to meet your point of view. If the original poster wanted to start a discussion of processes or methods that's what he would have done. "Knife Skills" is being interpreted literally because that is, indeed, the subject under discussion.

Now then, if you want a broader discussion, one that talks about processes and methods that contribute to efficient work flow, feel free to start a new thread. But don't go attacking my position on this one just because it doesn't fit the shape you want it to be.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

KYHeirloomer said:


> ...If the original poster wanted to start a discussion of processes or methods that's what he would have done. "Knife Skills" is being interpreted literally because that is, indeed, the subject under discussion....


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## the-boy-nurse (Aug 9, 2010)

Not to beat dead horse's but, that never stopped me before.

   You're right KY part of being able to teach a subject is to bring to an audience in understandable terms. As such the biggest factor is therefore your target demographic. You guys can discuss board management all you want, I have to Google mise en place because at that point, I'm lost. Simple concept but what does it mean, how do I do it. Rather than regiment-ally define knife skills as "skill with a knife" or alternatively define it liberally as anything done in a kitchen that might have at one time impacted anything that has ever come in contact with a knife or will do so at some yet undetermined time in the future. I think a continuum of skill be the established philosophy, with categories of "knife skills" running the gamut.
For instance-

Fundamentals:

   -Knife handling- choice of knife, basic grip of knife and food, knife safety

   -Sharpening: use a sharp knife (duh). Basic edge maintenance, consider how you are going to sharpen it prior to purchase.

   -Board management- Choice of board, how to secure board

Intermediate:

   -Knife handling- Proper posture, arm alignment, angle of the board, slicing technique

   -Sharpening- Choice of stones, determining factory bevel angle, maintaining consistent bevel angle while sharpening, proper progression to an edge.

   -Board management- (Don't know enough about it to even guess at intermediate board management examples)

Advanced:

   -Knife handling- Advanced knife options, understanding of food anatomy (skeletal structure, fascial influences on cut)

   -Sharpening- Bevel angle options, knife alloy and construction advantages and limitations etc

   -Board management- (see above only replace intermediate w/ advanced)

This is clearly a rank amateurs guess as to what constitutes skills but I hope it helps to demonstrate what I mean.

For BDL this would also satisfy the Hegelian progression.


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

KYH - I don't think we could resolve the bulk of this effectively through messages. The spoken word is much more effective  But I don't agree with the majority your interpretation. And they are indeed interpretations. So ending a sentence with "period" doesn't mean that you're right. That being said, I can't defend much of mine either because it's also an interpretation. It would be up to BDL to clarify the difference between us since we're looking at the intent differently on multiple levels. I'm not going to get hung up on whether he wants to or not.

And it goes without saying that theoretical discussions cannot be entirely defended at all since they aren't empirical.

My impression was that BDL was looking for feedback on some thoughts, in both structure and content, that he's been ruminating about for a while and that would eventually make it's way into something he's been working on... I could be wrong.

But in the broadest sense, I don't think any of the topics or categories enjoy any kind of special exclusivity from the others. Often a subject is best covered from multiple angles. Board management is a topic that has many dimensions. Using a knife over a board is just one of them. But in that context it works under "Knife Skills". Or at least, it works for me. Other board uses don't.

As for sharpening, I wrote: _If someone else does your sharpening then that's a category that doesn't necessarily apply the same way as to someone who does. Maybe it doesn't apply at all._ _ But it doesn't obviate the importance of a sharp knife._

So I didn't put any words in your mouth there. I'm certainly not suggesting that just because a sharp knife is important that you somehow believe the opposite. How did you get that impression? I've read lots of your posts. You're incredibly knowledgeable and I wouldn't ever suggest or assume anything otherwise.

I need to shut down and get to work, but if there's anything constructive that can come out of this maybe we can pick it up later. Otherwise "agree to disagree" as it goes.

+D.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Well Pete,

             I too, responded to the OP ... a three part question by BDL...and I answered it in a three parts as requested.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

BDL, a great thread. I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I would like to interject my [limited] opinion on the matter. I apologize if I repeat anything already posted.

I have to say that I believe the most important knife skill is the knowledge of each ingredient to be broken down. You can take an otherwise oblivious culinary student, teach them proper grip, posture, and technique, teach them how to sharpen and select a knife, and teach them how to keep an organized board. But if you place a bonito or a pineapple in front of them, those skills are useless unless they know how to break down the ingredient.

As another example, I have many times watch my grandfather filet fish at the camp we have in Central Louisiana. His grip, stance, and posture are awful, he cuts with an old knife that probably hasn't been sharpened since the 50's, and cuts on a stainless steel table that he keeps covered in blood and scales. But that man can produce the most perfect filets in far less time than I can manage. While my "knife skills" are superior to his, his knowledge of the anatomy of a sac au lait or bluegill allows him to break them down much faster and more efficiently. Now, this is an extreme example of my point, and I agree that the three things you've listed are critical to mastering the use of a knife, but without knowing your ingredients and how to work with them, you will never be able to master "knife skills".


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

wow!

a thread where we need both helmuts and firehoses!..cool!....i am guilty of not answering any of the original questions, only tangenting (if thats a word), to other things, that i thought were related...sorry, guess i didn't fully realize that this thread was only specific to skills...but it does seem to me to be a bit of hair splitting, oui?

joey


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

I skimmed through things and could find this mentioned.....

A rocking motion when chopping instead of playing the drums.

I am as guilt of this as anyone over the years. It's that show-off technique of a rapid fire cut. But as I started to get more serious as a Chef (maybe too serious for my own good at times) and as I had to train more and more people........reacquainting myself with the rocking motion showed me how important it was....not only for quality of cut but for the longevity and care of the knife. I've had my Heinkel 10" Chef's knife since 1994 and the only reason it wasn't longer was that it replaced one from 1982 that was lifted by an employee on my first day at a new job. No respect even for a  member of the Chef Staff........that still burns me up!

Anyhow, no matter what cutting surface you use, banging any knife other than a cleaver...... repeatedly against the cutting surface is harder on a knife than anything else could be. The rapid fire, banging on a drum technique, as visually impressive and speedy as it is....... is one I no longer even use. Kills me to see many of the Celeb chef's or even the contestants on reality shows abusing their knives while using this technique.

As far as the foot on the bottom shelf???????

Yes...... stop them from using the shelf but provide an alternative.....maybe an empty crate or empty can. Reason being......it will help minimize back issues.

Nothing harder on the back than to stand in one spot and cut things for hours. Yet if you elevate one foot and then change sides from time to time....elevate left foot then right and so on and so forth.........it relieves back stress and takes pressure off you lower back. It will also improve how you feel and possibly aid in preventing some of the causes of serious back injury. Yes.... you will have to keep on yourself as well as your staff about pace but....... it will make a difference, especially for those that already have issues. Believe me when I say I wish I was allowed to use this during the first 25 years of my career....may have minimized or saved me from a whole slew of spinal/back issues over the last 7.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The thread was started with the idea of getting your thoughts about knife stuff -- either generally or whatever specifics you wanted to talk about.  No matter what I wanted, that would happen anyway. 

More please. 

BDL


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

so off we go again!

my question is about steels.....i have an old 10" diamond one(which i'm looking to replace) that was great til it got a big nick in it...can it be repaired?...filed down somehow, or is it toast?...what happens to all the old steels anyway? fencing matches maybe? i sharpen a certain way, with my left hand on the handle, thumb against the hilt, elbow against my ribs(loosely), and the steel angled outward and a bit down from there.... what i see in books and from other pros, is that the steel tip is on a prep table(on a towel), except now the  new sexy steels have silicone tips...so they advocate putting steel tip down, hand on top of the handle, natch, and swiping the blade downward...this just seems awkward to me, and less precise, especially when you get to your big knives...and when i have tried it, it seems i lose count mo easily..maybe a persons height is the problem. i am on the shorter side and if i have to have to raise my arm so that my hand is on top , i'm already at a disadvantage, and have no leverage... in my method i can swipe both sides of the knife faster, and it it seems in a safer way...soo, like everything else, i'm sure there is a right and wrong way, but in the end, does it really make that much of a difference  to change.....or is it all just smoke and mirrors? what steels do you use, like?

joey


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The steel is dead jo.

That sounds very Dr. McCoy in Star Trek.

Basically, the diamonds are bonded to the exterior of your steel, not suspended in a matrix throughout the  steel.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Joey,

You don't need the tip in the towel technique. It's easy to learn, but basically for people who can't learn to do it your way. There's every reason to keep doing it the way you're doing it.

John Juranitch said that in every meat processing plant with 100 butchers, he was lucky to find more than four or five who could actually use a steel properly. Nearly all pros use way too many strokes, can't hold an angle, and bang the knife against the rod. Those are the big no-nos. 

_*The angle should start precise and be held constant*_, which is a non-issue for you. (The value of the tip in the towel is that it lets you see the angle; but after a lifetime of freehand sharpening, you shouldn't need visual confirmation.)
At the start of each stroke, _*lay the knife on the steel*_. Don't bang them together. The only sound should be zzzzzzzzz. Remember what Joan Crawford told the chef, "_*No steel clangers!*_" Don't worry. Slowing it down will feel unnatural at first; but after a couple of weeks month or so, you'll lay the knife on the rod with the same speed and rhythm you're used to now. (_Home cooks, this will take you longer._)
Always _*hone the entire length of the knife's edge *_from heel to tip.
The amount of rod you use depends somewhat on the lengths of hone and of the knife, but figure on using _*a length of rod equivalent to about 75% of the length of the knife*_. It's actually important.
Touch should be _*firm but gentle*_ -- your MO anyway -- and the only way to hold an angle for the length of a rod.
_*No more than four or five strokes on each side of the blade*_. After the third, you start doing harm; and by six, you're doing significantly more harm than good.
It may help to understand what the rod is supposed to do and not do. The edge of your knife folds over in spots from impact, and gets tiny dings along the side. By running the edge -- from heel to point -- along the very small contact point of a rod, you create a tremendous force that straightens the folds and the dings.

As your edge starts to wear, a rod hone with any texture at all will scuff up the bevels and reveal some fresh metal. The fresh metal is a good thing, as it "refreshes" the edge. Scuff is a mixed bag as it's synonymous with micro-serration (or not so micro with an aggressive steel), which give the blade some bite but also greatly weaken the edge so it will dull and wear very quickly.

_*Time for a new steel.*_ If you haven't chipped or really dinged a knife on the gouge, it is only because Betty, the Goddess of Cooking, smiles upon you. She is fickle though, and you will eventually. The steel is dead and needs replacement ASAP.

_*Diamond steels are knife eaters*_, and to be avoided by nearly everyone for most purposes. In other threads you've talked about how often you use your sharpening stones -- plenty often that all you want is something to true up a dinged edge. Sister, you really don't need a diamond rod.

_*Ceramics are the new wondersteels*_ for both performance and price. An Idahone fine ceramic if you can manage not to drop it or have it fall off a slanted counter: or a DMT CS2, which is not quite as good but is nearly unbreakable. Both are $30ish.

If you're going to stay with your little vegetable cleaver (nakiri) as your main prep knife, a 10" rod is long enough, but if you're going to move on to a 10" chef's get a 12" steel.

For the benefit of anyone else who's reading this, if you've got a good fine steel you don't have to throw it out and buy a ceramic. But if you're buying a new one anyway, ceramics are so much more bang for the buck it doesn't make a lot of sense to go any other way.

I use two steels as part of my regular maintenance; A HandAmercian (ultra-fine) borosilicate glass rod for the first half dozen or so honings after sharpening; then an old, worn-down Henckels fine, for the last half dozen or so honings before going back to the stones. I don't actually count -- just move on to the plan "B" when "A" stops working.

The HA glass rod is the best rod I've ever used -- by light years. However, it's expensive and too fine to be the _only_ steel for most people.

Worth noting that steels are also very useful for the "deburring" stage of sharpening.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

So I've just read through this whole thread. A few comments.

First, a trivial point. Yes, right --- Harold Faltermeyer. Oops. Anyway....

It strikes me that BDL's tripartite classification makes best sense when conceived pedagogically, i.e. for teaching, especially teaching of relatively beginning students. In a sense, it's not unlike the old wheezes about martial arts masters who force students to wash floors and paint fences and so on, when the students really just want to get cracking on hitting things. The point, of course, is that there are things you learn by washing floors or painting fences that are relevant and important, and furthermore that great beating-people-up skills are dependent on a lot more than learning to hit things as such. Just so, BDL's classification makes the argument that using a knife really well depends on a lot more than just cutting things, including things like board management and sharpening that many people think are irrelevant or a completely separate skill-set. Thus a part of what BDL and KYHeirloomer are arguing about is whether, in fact, board management and sharpening are or are not essential parts of using a knife well.

If the aim of the classification is not strictly pedagogical, however, we come back to my original question: what is it for, in fact? There can never be an objectively superior choice for such classification, because such superiority will always have to do with aims: classification _for what purpose_?

Rather than muck around with philosophers, let me just put the same point concretely. Suppose I want to categorize the books on my bookshelves. If maximizing space efficiency is the dominant principle, then clearly it will be advantageous to shelve books by height. If maximizing my own ability to find things is dominant, then it is advantageous to shelve books according to a system I have worked out in reference to my usage patterns and habits of thought. If maximizing the ability of someone else to find books is dominant, then it is best to have a system that can readily be imposed upon all books regardless (e.g. Dewey Decimal, Library of Congress, etc.). Now which is the right system? That's the wrong question. Right system _for what_?

What I was trying to get at in my first post, in my rambling way, was that this "for what?" question hasn't been addressed. I can accept something akin to BDL's system if the question is answered pedagogically, as noted above, but other than that it seems problematic in a number of respects --- as borne out by the discussions here. If the pedagogical aim is matched by the structure of BDL's _Cook Food Good_ writing project, then the question is in a sense pointless: the intended audience consists principally of relative beginners to serious cooking, and they will have an entire volume to become convinced by BDL's arguments on behalf of --- and supported by --- his classification. But what if we're actually interested in a sort of taxonomy of knife skills?

In that case, there are any number of ways to proceed. I'll just sketch two.

In one approach, you start by deciding on a core principle upon which to focus, plus a passably large sample of undeniable examples of the broad class to be examined. Then you begin dividing into piles, differentially, aiming to distinguish among the various examples by a range of monothetic (binary) questions regarding the core principle. By battering at this, trying out as many possibilities as you can, you begin to discern families within the class, and in the same gesture you find certain questions to be of a higher order than others. That is, if I have 6 objects, I find one question that divides them into 4 and 2, then another that divides the 4 into 2 and 2, and then three more questions that split each of the 2's in turn. Because every question relates to the core principle, I can ultimately find a chain of questions that take me from any given example to the highest-order generalities, and I have a workable system.

At base, this is how Linnaeus' taxonomy worked --- which is not the way you were taught it in biology, chances are, because it has subsequently been radically modified by a number of things, most especially evolution and heredity, which were not known to Linnaeus. His core principle was reproduction, which turned out to be a brilliant choice in light of later discoveries.

The disadvantage of a system like this is that it is 100% _imposed_. It makes no claims to discern any internal logic within the objects classified, but rather imposes a logical system of relations upon them.

The other main way to do things is to take a vast range of potential questions and apply them indiscriminately to every data-point, then look at the enormous chart this produces. This allows you to find groups or clusters that may be useful to analyze on their own terms, but tells you nothing about where the clusters come from.

Another common method attempts to discern, within a kind of combination of the two methods, a common underlying logic that is _not_ imposed but somehow arises from the objects classified. The danger is obvious: one tends to fall into the trap of seizing upon a logical principle that actually comes from the investigator and not the objects, and then seeing the fact that it pans out (and it always will) as confirmation of the system so constructed. Then again, it's worth noting that Darwin did exactly this, recognizing that a combination of heredity, environmental pressure, and _really_ long spans of time would give a _reason_ for Linnaeus' system not imagined by Linnaeus, and he was subsequently borne out by all kinds of things, most notably genetics and paleobiology. So it _can_ work --- but it's rare.

On the whole, the only way to evaluate these different methods and the various systems they can produce is to decide what ends you want the classification to serve. Having done this, you'll find that some methods are more likely to be fruitful than others.

Which all comes around full circle. What's this classification _for_?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Whewee, Chris. Quite a rundown. But the fact is, this is not a matter of categorizing as you discern it. There is only one simple question under contention. And even contention is too strong a word, cuz all we're really doing is discussing differing viewpoints.

Goal: To cut an onion in slices.

Thesis: Doing so involves knife skills.

Question: Does "knife skills" mean knife handling or does it mean knife handling plus associated endeavers? That is the only source of disagreement. It's really not a deep, philosophical argument.

BTW, I do disagree with you, slightly, on how Linnaeus' taxonomy works. The fact is, any system that divides things based on commonality and exclusivity does, indeed, follow an internal logic. And that's what Linnaeus's system is all about.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

KY,

1. Who said that "how to cut an onion" was a good starting point? What makes it so? For what purpose? It's not an unreasonable question, but why should it be the right one?

2. I didn't say Linnaeus' system didn't have an internal logic, only that he never claimed --- nor should he have claimed --- that the logic in question arose from the plants being classified. The logic in question was imposed by Linnaeus, who chose it for excellent reasons: the nature of reproductive systems in the plant world ensures that such systems will tend to be extremely diverse and easily observed, making it as easy as possible for the observer to distinguish among plants. Until Darwin comes into it, nobody claims that such a system focuses on a logic that belongs to the plants. This is Goethe's big criticism, and the reason for his attempt at the morphology of plants. Once Darwin happens, it turns out that there _is_ an internal reason _why_ the most diverse and easily observed type of structure in plants --- the reproductive systems --- is so coherent when classified systematically, and that is because the plants "want" to distribute their genetic material and have evolved to make their reproductive systems as attractive and user-friendly (as it were) as possible. But Linnaeus' system, as he invented it, presumed from the outset that the logic of the system was imposed by the rational observer.


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## the-boy-nurse (Aug 9, 2010)

ChrisLehrer said:


> Once Darwin happens, it turns out that there _is_ an internal reason _why_ the most diverse and easily observed type of structure in plants --- the reproductive systems --- is so coherent when classified systematically, and that is because the plants "want" to distribute their genetic material and have evolved to make their reproductive systems as attractive and user-friendly (as it were) as possible. But Linnaeus' system, as he invented it, presumed from the outset that the logic of the system was imposed by the rational observer.


Rationally observing attractive and user friendly plant reproductive parts. I feel dirty.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Wow, from knife skills to Darwinism, to Linneus (sp?) systems.....

How 'bout we just subsitute the name for this thread from "knife skills" to..........

(drum roll please)

"Cutting skills".
[hr][/hr]
Well.... Why not? Everything mentioned in this thread relates to cutting of food items, as well as the maintainence of cutting equipment--- not just knives.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_was imposed by the rational observer._

Pick me no nits, Chris. If the internal logic is there, doesn't matter whether the observer is aware of it or not. Why, in this case, isn't it the internal logic imposing itself on the observation?

Besides. don't forget the immortal words of Jack Kerouak: "John Locke was wrong. But how were we to know, having never met a rational man?"


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Amazinggrace I can totally relate. I have my original set of Sabtier knives that I carried all through Europe and I would catch my dear wife using my smaller chef knife to cut a cake. She now has her own set of knives and everything is good.



amazingrace said:


> The most important knife skill for me, is one that has taken years to perfect. That is, *keeping my knives away from the desctuctive force at work in my kitchen*...mainly HubbyDearest. To this end, I have two sets of knives. One set was very cheap (I paid under $30 for 15 pieces including the block). I keep them readily available, within reach for whatever hacking he might wish to do. And these more times than not, wind up in the dishwasher. The other set, while not very high qualilty either (but adequate for my needs), is kept in a less convenient place for my own use.
> 
> Before this system was developed, I would catch him sneaking my knives back into the kitchen. Then..."oh no, it was that way _before_ I used it to pry the paint can open"...or some such other abuse.
> 
> But, he's a good guy, a real keeper. So I've simply worked out ways around his less desirable traits. These are only knives, after all. They can be replaced. He cannot. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


In regards to cutting straight, my experience has taught me that cutting straight comes from years of practice and eying the cut as you make it. In fact you have to look where the knife will end up to cut straight as opposed to just looking at where you are cutting.

As for important knife skills I really believe these are the most important knife skills

-A sharp knife

-A good grip (holding it properly)

-And the right knife (not too big, not too heavy).

Why these three? Because if you don't pay attention to these three you will get carpal tunnel. I never ended up with carpal tunnel because I kept my knives razor sharp, I used a good knife that was well balanced and not to heavy for my hand and I help it properly. In my early days I would buy really expensive knives that were very heavy and when your using them eight hours or more a day you become easily fatigued. The right knife keeps you from getting fatigued and over working your muscles.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

I could not agree more in fact Hung Huynh emphasizes this in a video that is really amazing. He has alot of confidence when using his knife. How he uses his knife, how he guards his fingers, his agility....just wow.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Nicko -- I'm a little surprised (but happy!) to hear you talking about lighter knives so positively.  I'd somehow gathered that you preferred heavier knives.  Anyway, your opinions very much line up with mine.  

Petals -- I love that video, thanks for linking it in this thread.  Hung is so amazingly good.

There are a few things to take away from the video.  Hung uses a "slicer" instead of a chef's knife.  The slicer is better at portioning and doing thin slices partly because the narrower blade doesn't stick in the cut, partly because the blade is thinner and more flexible, and therefore more sensitive. 

On the other hand, a slicer lacks the knuckle clearance of a chef's, and the power which is developed by its greater weight, arc and stiffness.  Hung gets around the clearance problem with a great grip.  He not only "pinches," which turns his knuckles sideways instead of down; but he arches his hand over the blade a little.  That does two things.  Only his finger tips are  under the handle (knuckle clearance), and it keeps his wrist straight so the knife point, knife edge, and his wrist, forearm and elbow form one straight line.  The benefit of the line is that you'll intuitively and accurately place point where your eyes look.  It's a way of cutting the years of practice Nicko talked about down to a couple of months.

Hung gets around the slicer's relative lack of power by keeping his knife very sharp.  There just aren't many knife areas in which sharpness doesn't trump everything else.  Yet so few people -- even pros -- use knives which are actually sharp.  That's frustrating because it's not that complicated, and doesn't really require a lot of effort.

Use the right knife (which won't be a slicer for most of us), use it right, use it sharp, and your cooking will not only be more fun, but probably improve as well.  

2 (more) cents,

BDL


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

hey chris,

next time you run out of pot, call someone! you lost me halfway through with linnaeus or his system...think i prefer linus's theory......actually have nothing to add but a wee bit of estrogen in this obvious testosterone driven thread...no offense meant, chris, just humor...

joey


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't have a comment at this point but I do have a question.  A non-categorical question.  And it's about knife skills 

A few posts above, Oldschool made the point about using the length of the blade to make your cut as opposed to the "machine gun" style push cut.  For my purposes I think Oldschool is right.  Especially since I never see any chefs or line cooks in open kitchens doing a push cut when they're at work.  At most they may use some kind of modified push-draw cut.  Not sure what you'd call it but certainly not the straight up and down chop that reverberates over the whole work surface.

But in the video just posted by petalsandcoco as well as just about every celebrity cook show I see the rapid fire push cut in all it's glory.  What do people here think about that?  

Tutorials on knife technique that I've read don't teach you to prep this way.  Is this just showmanship?  Is it a necessary skill for cooks under the gun to get X amount of work done in less than X amount of time?  Is it a useful skill?  A display of just how sharp your knife is?  Or something that's only useful with a lot of experience behind the board?  Or just a good way to eventually shave your knuckles off?  I could sort of see it being useful for small things like shallots but beyond that it seems like you're trading a marginal savings in time for substantially more knife maintenance.

+D.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Doug,

It's another of those highly caveated "whatever works," things.

To some extent the knife profile will impose itself on the balance between push cut, the classicly French silent guillotine and slide, and/or rock cut. A "German" profile favors rock cutting -- if for no other reason than because it will "accordion" (not quite all the way through the last part of the cut), if it isn't rocked -- which creates the characteristic pumping action. A flatter profile as with a nakiri, or Hung's trenchelard slicer, favors push cutting.

Cooks from my generation who learned to cook in "classic" kitchens learned to go through the block, plank, stick and dice sequence by starting each cut with the tip down -- but not necessarily touching on the board; then bringing the handle down while sliding the knife forward (not "drawing it") in order to both finish the cut with the flat of the knife edge (a French profile is pretty flat from about the middle of the edge to the heel), and to keep the cut quiet. No tap-tap-tapping for us. We learned that _good_ cooks did not make noise with their knives, whisks or other tools. It's not particularly true, but that's how we learned.

Of course, to some extent you impose your style your on the knife too. But the profile plays a sufficently strong role that it only makes sense to choose a knife that will work with your style, or one which will favor a style you want to learn. For instance I'm looking for a knife which will be very different from current go-to Sabatier in almost every way other than the shape of the knife along the edge -- because as much as I want something different, I don't want to relearn basic skills.

Speed cutting pretty much requires making noise. You can use a flatter profile and lift it straight up and down, or you can use the bellied tip of a chef's knife or slicer and use a slightly elevated wrist as a fulcrum and flick the point down so the belly hits the board square. Because it negatively impacts most cooks' quality and consistency speed cutting is pretty much just show off stuff. There are a few guys with the talent, who put in the time, and became sufficiently solid to make it productive, but not many. They're better than the rest of us. For sure. Did I mention the noise?

You see something a lot like speed chopping with tip work done at regular speeds as well -- for instance when pros score onions and shallots, etc.

It's either that or bringing the blade down onto the board, and lifting the handle so the tip cuts all the way down. I.e., pumping. This second way requires enough pumping to make it annoying under the best of circumstances, and still more of a PITA when using knives with German profiles or with knives with high tips. (Shun Classic Chef's have both -- which is one of the reasons so many people don't like them.) A lot of Japanese gyutos, Masamoto for instance, use a slightly dropped tip which makes a lot of things easier.

As a professional you have to balance quality, consistency and speed; how you do it isn't important. As a home cook, it's all about quality. Either way you don't get graded on technique. Technique's sole purpose is to serve results. _Form ever follows function, that is the law_.

If you have great hand-eye coordination and are talented enough to make anything work (like Hung), it doesn't matter. Similarly if you can't keep your knife sharp it doesn't matter or your board sufficiently organized to use the knife without cutting into piles of already cut food it doesn't matter very much either. It doesn't take much awareness to realize that at least a gazillion great meals have been prepared with each of the three broad styles we're talking about here -- not to mention their variants.

For someone who wants to learn or improve, I favor a compromise between classic French and push cutting. It's relatively easy to learn and better suited to the normative western cuts; and also suited to chef's/gyutos (which are so productive for so many other things) than pure push cutting. It better suits the French profile of French carbons and Japanese gyutos which have better blades than their German styled counterparts, nor does it require all that handle pumping.

But to each her own.

BDL


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

What do I think about the video or rapid fire celebrity cook fires ? I like em....not that I will ever yield a knife like Hung (as much as I would love to - but can certainly try) ....there is a bigger picture behind Hung....this is a man who grew up in his family's restaurant learning and mastering the fine (art) techniques of knife skills from his family, and with good right, because look at him now, the man can cut , in fact he can cut so well , the knife has become an extension of his hand. He is that comfortable , and that precise.

I would imagine he has cut _MANY _onions and the like , supply and demand, to keep the restaurant going. He went to CIA , he used to be the Executive sous chef at the Savoy in Vegas.

And FWIW , anyone who enters the Bocuse d'or USA (in 2008 and 2009) must have something in their backpocket to bring to the forefront and this guy brought his best, he even won in the fish comp.

Not because he wants to show off, because he is good or rather he excels at what he does. And why wouldn't we give him the accolades for it ? Showmanship ? There is ego in everything n'est pas ? So he knows he can chop. He was taught , excellence....

* Is it a necessary skill for cooks under the gun to get X amount of work done in less than X amount of time? *Yes sir ! If I am under the gun to produce a certain quanity of product in a minimal amount of time, sometimes with the boss watching.....I will produce as many onions as needed-no tears , just a big smile. Why ? Because that is what I am getting paid for , right ?

* A display of just how sharp your knife is? *If anyone does not work with a sharp knife... a dull knife becomes work and not pleasurable. I would hate to think that because my knife was dull I spent X amount of hours more cutting veggies for nothing and everyhting else is on standby.

*Or just a good way to eventually shave your knuckles off? *No, we shave our knuckles off when we don't pay attention, when we are sidetracked, or not using the knife right or protecting our fingers properly (fingers curled in) . Accidents do happen though, regardless of who you are.

Knife Maintenance ? wipe, dry and sharpen. not long to do.

Is it just me Doug ? Because I see life in a positive way all the time. The glass in never half empty , its always half full...is that my demise ?

You know I see so many great knife skills and what a video like Hung does to me is teach me that cutting is an art, an art with much technique and practice behind it that is wants me or inspires me to be a better master of the tool (and trade).

You asked some good questions Doug......

Maybe someone might think differently from me, and I am sure there are many who do.....but thats life.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Can't resist... will strong, body weak...



KYHeirloomer said:


> _was imposed by the rational observer._
> 
> Pick me no nits, Chris. If the internal logic is there, doesn't matter whether the observer is aware of it or not. Why, in this case, isn't it the internal logic imposing itself on the observation?


It's not a nit --- it's a whacking big Gordian knot. You're missing the point, KYHeirloomer.

Consider alphabetic classification of books or words or whatever. There isn't any internal logic here --- it's completely imposed in order to serve the desired function (finding things quickly). You can play around endlessly trying to find out why "Judaism" precedes "Juglandaceae" (the walnut family) in the _Encyclopedia Britannica_, but there is no reason except the completely arbitrary order of the alphabet. You learn nothing about these two things, or their relationships, by messing with the alphabet. Linnaeus was looking, in effect, for an alphabetic-like ordering for plants, and he chose what seemed to him an arbitrary but humanly convenient principle around which to arrange it. There was no internal logic to the order, just human convenience.

But why do I bring all this up? (I hear you cry.) Because if you're going to classify knife skills, or knives, or both, into one system, you are bound at some point to make a decision. Either you have to claim that there is some intrinsic logic to how these things interrelate, and that the aim of your classification is to draw out that internal logic, or else you claim that the logical principles you have chosen to _impose_ serve some functional end. For example, pedagogy: you think that if these things are organized in the following way, it will be easier to learn good knife skills.

What I'm saying is that "the most important knife skills" is something that has to be discussed in relation to something else, be it a function or some intrinsic quality. When people talk about this kind of thing, they tend to talk as though there really were some natural, internal logical system that just had to be discerned. French rationalism being what it was, at the time Careme and Escoffier and so on were (re)formulating _haute cuisine_, they did not make this claim: they believed that they were _imposing _a rational system that achieved efficient ends.

If we're going to classify knife skills, and decide what does and doesn't fit into the category --- or rather, if BDL wants to do such a thing --- we're going to have to work out what the functional end sought might be.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

I have watched the video as suggested and frankly Petals ....you know I luv ya gal......but i do not find anything fascinating about this guy ,,,except alot of noise while chop,chop,chop

What gives?


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

I don't know Gypsy.....to be honest with you , in post  # 96 Chef BDL pretty much described what I enjoyed most about the techniques .....you know there are so many other great chefs with knife skills, I picked him because he is popular right now, but like everything in this world, ships pass in the night, if its not him today it will be another one tomorrow. The video was just an example of demonstrating some positive ways to handle some knives.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

After thought Petals....

                                    We should applaud upcoming young Chefs  in all their talent & accomplished knife skills,

All the best to him and his future endeavors


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

That is exactly why I enjoy him so much, he is young talented and full of potential. In fact there is so much hope for  up and coming young chefs, they have vision, they desire to be recongnized as such.

I applaud their teachers (whom ever they might be) who work so hard to teach them,  it says alot about endurance.

Yes, I applaud them all....they work so hard.

There is a book out by the CIA, " In the hands of a Chef ", it is another good learning tool.


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