# Ginsu Chikara



## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

I have been lurking for a while. i am looking for a budget set, since I already have Mac Pro for main knife. Just need secondary set to use around in certain occasion (ie. if having home party, etc). Anyone have experience with Ginsu Chikara knife? Different company from old ginsu TV commercial.

Link: http://www.douglasquikut.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1823

They overtook Victorinox for recommendation on consumer report, but I can't find anyone reviewing it here. Thanks


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

420J2 is not a good steel for kitchen knives.  It is used in very low end budget knives.  Its only positive is corrosion resistance.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Does that mean Dexter Russel or Forschner/Victorinox is better knife?


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

If you already have a Mac Pro those knives will be a big disappointment.  Really I'd look for a used Mac petty and a Tojiro 270mm bread knife -  that's really all you need.  That and maybe a good paring knife.  Spend a few bucks on a sharpening stone and learn to maintain those knives and you'd be set for years.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for the reply. I just need a second "cheap" knife for some event and for other people who are cooking at home, maybe I should just get whatever I can find in Ross for that purpose.

In other note, can someone recommend a butcher/cleaver? I need one to cut chicken (whole chicken), something cheap and be able to go through bones/joints. I was thinking Dexter Ruseel or Victorinox chinese cleaver, but I am open for any suggestion.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Are you just breaking down chicken? There is no need to cut through bone unless you want to keep the breast on the bone.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Cleavers are several different worlds unto themselves. They come in two basic flavors - the western cleaver and the asian cleaver. Whatever you might think, the two are vastly different in what they are and how they are used.

The western cleaver is all about brute force. You are looking to really whack something. It's a good way to work off aggression. The basic process is to mightily swing your your arm down from on high to gain momentum. Size and weight matter here. Good western style cleavers are thick, big, heavy monsters of mass destruction. A good example is the Dexter Russell S5288 - which one reviewer notes weighs 2.75 pounds. Yes, it will crunch through chicken bones. It will also crunch through and separate your fingers from your hand (or chop off your hand entirely) if you don't pay attention to what you are doing.

You will also need a good chopping block/table for these brutes. Figure a stand-alone table with a 4 inch thick edge grain maple block. Anything lighter is at risk of damaging your work area underneath or slamming right through plastic or wood to the work surface below.

Asian cleavers, more properly called broad knives, are often mistaken for European cleavers. However, they are the asian version of the chef's knife and in the hands of an experienced asian chef are able to undertake almost any task, including delicate work.. They can be found in very thin versions, with edges which are as close to a razor in sharpness as anything else you can find. They are superlative for fine, thin slices. It's not unusual for these knives to be single bevel. Good brands are CCK and Ho Ching Kee Lee.

Whether you need either type is a different issue, though. Each is somewhat overkill (from different use perspectives) for chefs, especially if you already have a good chef's knife (especially the MAC Pro Chef Knives).

If you want a separate knife for use by your guests, then an 8 inch Victorinox/Forschner fibrox handle chef's knife is probably adequate as a secondary knife, though a 210 mm Tojiro DP, a Fujiwara FKM or Richmond Artifex would be a step above.

I've been often enough in at Ross, T.J. Maxx, Marshall's, etc., etc. to pretty much not want to bother buying any knives from that type of store. The offerings are of steel which is of a quality below what "BDL" called "crap steel". They will be very difficult to properly sharpen and will lose what sharpening they do get very quickly. Better to go to a restaurant supply store, or biting the bullet and going online for one of the above knives.

What I don't see from you is any information about your honing/sharpening routines. If you don't already have one, a good quality hone (such as the 12 inch Idahone) can start the process of self-sharpening. You also need either some stones or a jig (such as the EdgePro) to truly keep your cutlery sharp.

Also, go to your local public library system and read Chad Ward's 2008 book, *An Edge In The Kitchen* . The basic information is good, though prices are long past any semblance of up-to-date.

Otherwise, just buying more knives is little more than a temporary sop before you need that "next knife".

Galley Swiller


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks a lot for your response.

Regarding the other topic (cleaver), I am using the knife mostly when I bought chicken leg, and need to separate the drumstick from thigh. Mostly cutting through joint. Secondly, I sometimes buy the rotisserie chicken from Costco, and need a knife/cleaver to cut them into 2 brest and 2 leg. I don't plan to use my Mac knife to do that job (especially cutting/splitting the breast from chicken). Any insight for which knife to buy (or is it perfectly safe to use my Mac knife)?

I bought Mac ceramic hone, along with Rollsharp SR2, just for the convenience. Maybe I will ship it back to Mac for resharpen once or twice a year. I did not have any experience with sharpening using stone, so I took the easy way with Rollsharp and plan to have it professionally resharpen once in a while.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

If it's just to separate the thigh from the drumstick, either your chef's knife or a petty could probably do that.  Using a Victorinox for splitting the breast would also work, and would be certainly less nerve-wracking than using and thinking that the MAC would be at risk. 

The "formal" knife for such a job would be the honesuki.  However, it's overkill and is a distinctly single bevel knife, that you would need to learn how to properly sharpen.

Im glad to hear you bought the MAC hone (though personally I think it's a bit too short).  

I am not a fan of the RollSharp.  I just acquired a used MAC Professional chef's knife with a damaged (chipped) tip from what I suspect might have been the use of a RollSharp.

Sharpening your own knives is certainly the best way to go.  It means that you can keep your knives sharp, without having to wait for two-way shipping and processing.  It's not really rocket science.

Galley Swiller


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Galley Swiller said:


> If it's just to separate the thigh from the drumstick, either your chef's knife or a petty could probably do that. Using a Victorinox for splitting the breast would also work, and would be certainly less nerve-wracking than using and thinking that the MAC would be at risk.
> 
> The "formal" knife for such a job would be the honesuki. However, it's overkill and is a distinctly single bevel knife, that you would need to learn how to properly sharpen.
> 
> ...


So would you recommend Victorinox Meat Cleaver or Victorinox chef knife?

What is the shortcut (easy way) to sharpen, other than Rollsharp? I have no experience using stone at all; should I just ship it for resharpen, or is there any easy tool to sharpen it?.

Thanks


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Adding question: Do you think Victorinox Vibrox is better option than Ginsu Chikara for spare chef knife?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I took a closer look at the ginsu chikara chef and I would never buy that knife. I already told you I don't like the steel. On top of that the profile has too much curve (personal preference) and hardly any flat spot. Consider that you lose another inch at the heel that can't be sharpened because of the fingerguard bolster, it is not very functional.I've had victorinox over 4 years. I have better japanese knives, but I keep it in my kitchen well sharpened as a guest/visitor knife. For most people it is the sharpest they will ever use. The 10" vf has a much better profile than the 8" IMO. On either one, the handle goes right into the spine at a weird angle. If you sharpen the heel, it will take some weird angle of approach on the stone to clear the handle.For sharpening I recommend learning freehand on waterstones. Its not for everyone I guess, but it is the best for your knife. Produces the best results and loses the least amount of metal. After that I would take dry arkansas stone sharpening. Next best is a jig like edge pro, but those are not much faster if you use them correctly and expensive. Next next best is find a professional water stone sharpener. They cost more and rightfully so. All other options like pull throughs, grindy machines, guy in a van with a wheel, are just bad.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

That should have had paragraphs... blasted phone. Excuse any typos too.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for the reply.

So Victorinox, it is then. I plan to get the Fibrox handle instead of rosewood because its cheaper and easier to maintain (ie. dishwasher safe, no need to oil the handle); unless there it another advantage to Rosewood vs Fibrox. I am still undecided whether going with 8 or 10" though.

I found a local knife store charging $1 per inch to sharpen knife. I might try it before sending it to Mac (company).


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Dishwasher detergent has abrasives to scrub off food particles by design.  The same abrasives are bad for your edge.  It reduces the life of your edge.  It will cost you time on the stones or money at the sharpening service.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Be careful about knife sharpening companies; they almost invariably use grinders. Maybe not the first time, or the second; maybe not for a year or two. But in my experience they WILL mess your knife up eventually


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

To answer the direct questions, first, I wouldn't recommend a cleaver at this point. A chef's knife is enough. As for sharpening, there's no magic bullet, but the process really isn't all that difficult to learn.

As I suggested above, read *An Edge In The Kitchen* by Chad Ward. Quite a few public library systems already have the book, or can order it through inter-library loan systems. As an initial and fast summary, read this post by Mr. Ward:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

That's going to give you a quick summation (but by no means all) of what's in the book about knives, steel and sharpening, but it is enough to get you started. Yeah, it's not a 30-second fast read, but lots in life requires more than sound bites.

With the idea that a moving picture is worth more than words, watch on-line videos by Master Bladesmiths such as Bob Kramer and Murray Carter, and by Jon Broida of Japanese Knife Imports. Another source of on-line videos is at Chef Knives To Go.

Frankly put, I have to agree with Grande about "professional" sharpening services. I have seen plenty of botched-up sharpenings from "Professionals". This is not to say that all professionals are bad. Jon Broida, Dave Martell and several others truly are excellent sharpeners, and are craftsmen in their own right.

On a different note, I do have to disagree with MillionKnives above about detergents having abrasives. Abrasives involve direct mechanical wear, while what detergents do is act as emulsifiers, with the hot water acting both as a delivery agent for the detergent and as an energy source to the individual molecules of the detergents, giving those molecules the energy necessary to bind to the oils and greases on the items to be cleaned, so the emulsified oil and grease residues can be rinsed away.

Galley Swiller


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

Going from a Mac to a ginzu, even what Ginzu claims is the "high end" is gonna be like going from a Harley to a vespa.
There are plenty of very good inexpensive pro quality knives made of good steel without  having to resort to a Ginzu, Henkels international, Wusthof silverline, etc  Walmart type of knife.

Mentioned before were victorinox. they're great cheapies. I'd take one anyday over a Chikara.
But if you get a chance, try the new Wusthof Pro series, that will quickly be replacing the Fiberox as the "house knife" in most commercial kitchens. Better ergonomics and better grippiness to the handle material. Of course Mercer, Dexter icut pro and the amazing Tojiro DP series. All great and very inexpensive.

I saw some people mentioning the awesome Dexter CCK. It's an awesome knife for cheap! But only for certain tasks, It's shaped like a cleaver so obviously no piercing motions. The "locomotion" style cut is also not great. For vertical cutting and for drawing (pulling motion), it can't be beat and it's very inexpensive. Great to add to any arsenal of knives. Most of the differences in model numbers are who was the sub manufacturer or which wood is in the handle. I also recommend their 5197 which is almost like a Nakiri rather than a cleaver in it's height.

As other people have said. AVOID "professional" knife sharpening except for a chipped or broken blade. Almost all use grinders. That being said, There ARE some fine craftsmen that will do a knife the right way, but they are very few and far between. A place that charges a "dollar an inch" is likely to be the type that just uses grinders. This would be alike taking a Ferrari to the carwash. A MAC is a fine instrument. Do not screw it up

I saw someone mentioning dishwashing. NOT WITH MY KNIFE. It's not so much the abrasiveness of the detergent. It's the chemical make up (high alkalinity and salts). More importantly it's the mechanical factor of high pressure water jostling metal around. And the prolonged exposure to high temperature (usually 180 degrees) of the drying cycle on some models. If you want the fiberox because it's easier to grip and less expensive. Fine. But NEVER dishwash a good knife, even if it's an inexpensive Fiberox. If you want to dishwash a knife, get that Ginzu or get a cutco.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

About the Wusthof Pro line - be advised that the handle is a style chosen for its "ergonomic" design and appeal.  However, when I had one, I found that it is not a knife which is readily held in a pinch grip.  If you intend to get a knife which you hold in the "Baseball bat" hold, then it works, otherwise..........

Handle issues aside, Wusthof Professionals are otherwise good value, if you want an ergo handle.  Professional line Wusties are not marketed to the home market, but strictly to the commercial kitchen and restaurant market.  While the Wustie Pro's have been around for a while, there doesn't seem to be much of a marketing push to sell them.  Your best chance of finding them is on the internet.  The blades are made from stamped and machined steel blanks.  However, since the knives are imprinted with "X50CrMoV15" (the same steel type used in the Classic and Ikon lines) and are made at Solingen, Germany (the same production facility used for their top of the line Classic and Ikon lines), it can be reasonably inferred that the same heat treatment is used and the knives are hardened to 58 hRc.  Still, there's that pesky issue of the handle.....

I have Mercer and Dexter knives and some Tojiro DP knives.  The Mercer and Dexter knives are serviceable, but probably a level below the Victorinox (Forschner).  All three (and all of the Wusties) are harder to sharpen than Japanese knives and will get dull faster.  It's just the nature of the steel.  Mass-market European and American knives are made to be tough, and to resist chipping and steel loss.  That minimizes inventory problems with customers and with distributors.  

On the other hand, Japanese higher-end knives are made to be brought to a sharp edge and to hold that edge.  Chipping and other breakage is held to be a lower priority than getting that edge sharp.  The Tojiro DP and the MAC are made in that tradition.  Thus, the Tojiro DP clearly outshines Victorinox, Mercer and Dexter in terms of taking a good edge and holding it longer..  Its drawbacks are those common to VG-10 core knives - a tendency to chip when used with frozen foods, and when used against bone.  Otherwise, its better than any other knives discussed in this thread, excepting the MAC.

Dexter and CCK are two completely separate companies making broad knives (i.e., "Asian Cleavers").  The Dexter Asian Cleaver is stainless steel, while most CCK knives are carbon steel.

Galley Swiller


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

I ended up getting this set. Too good of a deal for me to pass. http://home.woot.com/offers/victorinox-3-piece-cutlery-set-4?ref=ref=cnt_wp_10_10


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

A good price for a secondary knife set for your guests.  My one quibble is over the honing steel.  Like all other European mass market manufactured steels (more properly known as "honing rods"), it is made to be just harder than the knives made by its manufacturer.  However, it is in all likelihood not harder (and most likely softer) than the various steels used in quality Japanese knives, such as MAC.  I also note that the picture shows a slight degree of some sort of texturing of the surface of the Victorinox steel.  My worry is that some guest will take the hone and use it on a Japanese knife readily at hand (such as your MAC Professional), not knowing better, with major damage to both the honing rod and the edge of the Japanese knife.

Using a honing rod with steel softer than the steel in the edge of a knife being honed is a prescription for disaster: the harder steel of the knife edge will dig into the softer steel of the hone, until the edge catches in the now-created cut in the hone.  Then a sudden build-up of pressure at a microscopic area will result in the pressure being relieved both by a breakage of the knife edge (chipping) and a gouge being opened on the face of the hone - which will be a future point of damage if the hone is used again.     

However, not all is lost.  My simple recommendation is that you simply throw the Victorinox honing steel away.  There's simply no benefit to keeping it and plenty of risk of future unintended damage.  You already have a much superior MAC honing rod, which is good on ALL of your knives.

The Home WOOT price is a modest and not spectacular price savings, if you are considering just the prices of the Victorinox knives, without the honing steel.  Checking Amazon as I type this, Amazon offers the 8 inch chef's knife at $33.60 and the 3-1/4 inch spear point straight edge paring knife for $7.80, for a total of $41.40.

Galley Swiller


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

sorry, I thought I made it clear that the dexter CCK was made by subconrtactors and that it's not a dexter sani-safe, icut, or any one of their other models. Galley swiller IS correct. The CCK is NOT "made" by Dexter. I mentioned the CCK only because someone else mentioned it. But they ARE terrific knives when used properly (vertical cutting or drawing, not locomotion cutting). Dozens of working chefs (not just line cooks) I know have the and use them daily.


I DO agree that the handle can be used "baseball bat style" like Galley Swiller (love that name) says. But they are perfectly fine pinch grip as well, and for my tastes, I still think the angles are more ergonomic whether baseball grip or pinch grip. I disagree that they are made more for a person who is going to use a baseball style grip. After all they're designed for prep and line cooks, not home cooks, and for most work a real cook is gonna use a pinch grip. When working under certain conditions, it helps to have both grips in mind. In a real kitchen the ability to maintain control even when slippery with blood fat or grease, is a major factor.

I HIGHLY disagree that a Mercer Genesis,  Rennaisance or a Dexter Icut is "below a victorinox". Mercer used the same steel as a wusthof (in fact, it bears a remarkable resemblance) Victorinox is a stamped (not forged) blade. BTW, we are forgetting that victorinox DOES make an excellent forged knife series. And the steel in the forged line might even be considered slightly better than the steel in the Wusthof/Henkels/Mercer lines. The victorinox forged series is head and shoulders above the stamped line. The Mercer mx3 uses the same steel as in a Tojiro DP.

But the victorinox series that we are discussing has a completely flat profile stamped line (think flat sheet of steel) not sculpted with multiple profiles. It has no bolster (although for some things that might be better). VIctorinox handle material is cheap plastic. The Genesis and icut use santoprene and the Renaissance uses engineered wood. just like the wusthof classic.
Don't get me wrong. A Mercer or a dexter is not my favorite knife. But they are some of my favorite bargains. And they ARE good quality. If not, they wouldn't be in 90% of culinary schools and IN MOST commercial kitchens.

Tojiro uses a VG10 core and has between 3 and 67 layers of steel cladding including the edge. Not cheap rolled sheet steel

I'm not mentioning a ton of other great knives, only the bargains we've already been talking about in the thread.

I tend to agree slightly on the hone. I think the MAC hone will be much better quality, but I'm not sue that I would use my good hone on a cheap victorinox. I'd use the mac hone for all my good knives and my victorinox hone for Walmart quality knives (let's admit it. most of us still have a few crummy knives floating around the house)

The original poster has bought the victorinox and they will serve him well. I think we can al agree on that.  It IS an excellent knife at a bargain price, even before a woot. With a woot, it's even a better deal! I think we can all agree that being frugal is good, but being cheap is bad.
 BUT I still hold that it is like a vespa to a harly Davidson in comparison to his MAC. I think almost everyone in the thread would agree. I think we can all agree that the ginzu chikara is a bad joke.

And when galley swiller mentioned the "pesky issue of the handles" Remember. the renaissance uses the same "pesky handle as a Wusthof Classic" and rhe genesis uses the same Pesky haandle material as a Wusthof Grand Prix 2.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for all of your response.

I know this topic is done, but since I have couple expert in this thread (I have read a lot of BDL post when doing my research to buy Mac Pro, which I haven't find him online again in the last year), I might add several questions:

1. I bought the proteak edge grain cutting board, since it was on sale on knifemerchant. Thought on this? I just read several post saying teak is not really good material for cutting board. Its non refundable, should I use it or ditch it?

2. Honing, I have the Mac 10.5" rods. I have 8" knife at this time, but IF I upgrade to 10" chef knife, is 10.5" rods still acceptable? If not, I can return it since its still unused and buy the longer rods.

3. Sharpening. I bought the Mac Rollsharp as I mentioned earlier. I have no plan to learn sharpening using stone at this point. Is it a good enough shortcut? Should I return it and get the Chef Choice 15/20 instead? Or 3 stages minosharp? Are those worth the extra cost to upgrade from Mac Rollsharp? I have zero experience with any sharpening (both manual and electric sharpener) - never sharpen any knife in my life. I am afraid the elctric (chef choice 15/20) might damage the Mac. Or should I return rollsharp and just left sharpening to expert (ie. send it back to Mac)?

Thanks again guys!


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

1 I have not used proteak. But I don't think that teak is a "bad surface". I personally own one Boos that was a gift and about a couple dozen poly boards.
2 Assuming you use care, the current hone is just fine.
3. most of the chefs here won't have too much experience with either the rollsharp or with an electric machine. I HAVE heard good things about chefs choice from home cooks. Perhaps the home cooks who are obviously in this thread can give you more advice than I can. If the rollsharp came from mac, it can't be absolutely horrible, but do not use those infomercial sharpeners the look exactly like the rollsharp. Remember the rollsharp is only for 50-50 bevel blades.
Do not think that either the rollsharp or the chefschoice is a substitute for a real sharpening. Think of it like checking the air in your tires and changing oil on your car. Not a substitute  for full maintenance.
Do not ue one with either a diamond or tungsten rollers. I know the chefschoice uses diamond pads, but I think with care, it would be OK if you used it only rarely and made sure it was one with the right bevel.

There seem to be a lot of home cooks here at cheftalk that claim to know so much more than working professionals. That's OK, but perhaps they should post youtube videos instead of spreading spurious information and ill-informed opinion. This is not directed at galley swiller. most of his advice was actually pretty good except for saying that some brands are "below the level of a victorinonx".  I'm just venting over other people who have never been in a kitchen pretending they are experts. Too many people watch the Food network and reality TV shows and think being a chef is a glamorous job. My friends that aare nurses also complain to me about people who watch too much doctor OZ giving bad advice to people seeking info about diets and supplements.

We're all glad you didn't get the ginzu or worse yet, a cutco. The victorinox will serve you well.
AND REMEMBER. NO DISHWASHER. Even for a cheap (but great value) knife.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

harrisonh said:


> 1 I have not used proteak. But I don't think that teak is a "bad surface". I personally own one Boos that was a gift and about a couple dozen poly boards.
> 
> AND REMEMBER. NO DISHWASHER. Even for a cheap (but great value) knife.


Did you use poly board with good knife? I thought you only supposed to use wood board. No?

No dishwasher for victorinox, dishwasher are only for faberware that I bought from Ross.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

I use my Boos at home.
I work, so 95% of the time, we're using poly boards because of liability issues and because of manpower issues (we can just throw a poly board in the dishwasher). We don't use one board and wipe it down like a home cook does. We use dozens over the course of a day. And boards in a working kitchen are often color coded and segregated. We can't afford the cost of segregated wood boards. Nor could be spare the space of housing several dozen wood boards.
I sometimes use wood boards when I guest chef at a sushi restaurant. And yes, Japanese blades are much chippier because of their single bevel and their harder tempering.

 Wood isn't that much better on an edge as people think it is and people who work the line or who are the chef, sharpen and/or hone their knives all the time.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

harrisonh said:


> I use my Boos at home.
> I work, so 95% of the time, we're using poly boards because of liability issues and because of manpower issues (we can just throw a poly board in the dishwasher). We don't use one board and wipe it down like a home cook does. We use dozens over the course of a day. And boards in a working kitchen are often color coded and segregated. We can't afford the cost of segregated wood boards. Nor could be spare the space of housing several dozen wood boards.
> I sometimes use wood boards when I guest chef at a sushi restaurant. And yes, Japanese blades are much chippier because of their single bevel and their harder tempering.
> 
> Wood isn't that much better on an edge as people think it is and people who work the line or who are the chef, sharpen and/or hone their knives all the time.


Do you use your Japanese knife with poly board? In other word, does that mean poly board is okay/acceptable to use with Japanese blade?


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

yes, I use multiple Japanese knives with poly boards as do most other chefs I know. We generally don't use  a 700-900 dollar knife at work. I do know a guy (james beard winner) that does use amazing knives, but he is individually making dishes one at a time, not spending time on a line.

Many of my friends use Global, Tojiro DP or Senkuo, Shun Elites, Masamotos, Yoshihiros, MAC, etc, that are  in the $200-300 or so for a 210 length gyuto on a daily basis with poly boards (of course we all use different styles and lengths, just mentioned that so you have a basis of comparison). Remember that each of those brands have different levels of models (like a Honda civic is cheaper than a Honda accord), not just one. If we are doing a demo or a chefs table when the customer might know knives, we might use something more expensive. We might also use less expensive knives if were just doing prep or we are in a place where our good knives will be stolen. If you ever get a chance to see my other posts, I'm constantly posting about cheap knives where "value" is the most important criteria.

But it seems your question revolves around a perceived belief that wood is usually better than poly, not about knives just mentioned that I have many friends that use Japanese knives on a daily basis.. Again, poly boards are used because they're color coded and because we go through dozens of them, not because we think they're either superior to wood or worse than wood, even on Japanese knives which are might be "chippier" because of their bevel and because of the metal choice.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

harrisonh said:


> yes, I use multiple Japanese knives with poly boards as do most other chefs I know. We generally don't use a 700-900 dollar knife at work. I do know a guy (james beard winner) that does use amazing knives, but he is individually making dishes one at a time, not spending time on a line.
> 
> Many of my friends use Global, Tojiro DP or Senkuo, Shun Elites, Masamotos, Yoshihiros, MAC, etc, that are in the $200-300 or so for a 210 length gyuto on a daily basis with poly boards (of course we all use different styles and lengths, just mentioned that so you have a basis of comparison). Remember that each of those brands have different levels of models (like a Honda civic is cheaper than a Honda accord), not just one. If we are doing a demo or a chefs table when the customer might know knives, we might use something more expensive. We might also use less expensive knives if were just doing prep or we are in a place where our good knives will be stolen. If you ever get a chance to see my other posts, I'm constantly posting about cheap knives where "value" is the most important criteria.
> 
> But it seems your question revolves around a perceived belief that wood is usually better than poly, not about knives just mentioned that I have many friends that use Japanese knives on a daily basis.. Again, poly boards are used because they're color coded and because we go through dozens of them, not because we think they're either superior to wood or worse than wood, even on Japanese knives which are might be "chippier" because of their bevel and because of the metal choice.


Thanks.

Just need to verify that since I have color coded poly board at home that's smaller than my Proteak (which I was ready NOT to use with my Mac knife). Changed my perception so that I can use Mac with both Poly and wood now.


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thought on this: 
[product="27487"]Master Grade Premium Knife Sharpener [/product]
or should I just take it/ship it to Mac? Thought about Epicurean Edge sharpening service? I am located in Seattle, so I can take it to Epicurean Edge to have it professionally sharpened.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't use them. I don't know any working people that do. But I have heard some good things about them from home cooks. Just make sure you match the blade bevel of the knives you own to the sharpener. (50/50, 70/30, 80/10, etc) . It's always nice to get a professional sharpening from a craftsman, but IF you pay, make sure it's someone who uses a stone, not someone just grinding or sanding it down. You can do it yourself. I know someone said he was too lazy, and I understand.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

These things take off a lot of metal.  The other problem is that they don't thin.  On most knives the spine is the thickest part of the blade. The victorinox is stamped so it's actually uniform all the way down.  It could work for that.  I don't know about on the Mac.

For the money, you could get a good 2 stone setup.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Sorry about jumping in a few days late - I got hung up with a family shindig which took up time and I am only now catching up.

Epicurean Edge in Kirkland probably would be a good place to take your MAC.  The proprietor, Daniel O'Malley, is a bladesmith, and the description of his sharpening process (combination of Japanese waterstones, buffing and wet belt grinders) is within acceptable procedures.

Devin Thomas and Dave Martell (who together probably know as much about knives as anyone else) both have good things to say about EpicEdge and Dan.

Galley Swiller


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

I know I am bumping a dead thread But I am in need to re-sharpen my Mac knifes, and I found several options from Yelp which explain how he sharpen the blade. Any thought:

1. Epicurean Edge

Pretty well known nationally, but didn't mention their sharpening steps: http://www.epicedge.com/shopcontent.asp?type=sharpening

2. http://bronksknifeworks.com/bronks-knife-sharpening-service/ reviewer mentioned that it took him 20 minutes to sharpen 3 knifes. Description of his sharpening steps from his website:

Holding a knife to stone while sharpening at the proper angle can be difficult but there are a few sharpeners now that can take the guess out of that part of the equation. The Edge Pro system is one of these systems and I use one occasionally but I still prefer the belt grinder for the benefit of speed.

After years of standing at the belt grinder, it feels like just an extension of my arm and it saves me much time and my customers money for sharpening services. There are knife sharpeners who charge over two dollars an inch for their services and more for extras and they are no doubt good at what they do.

3. http://www.knifesharpeningseattle.com/ reviewer said it took him around an hour to sharpen the blade. Description from his website:

I sharpen all knives free hand, no jigs or angle guides are used. I sharpen free hand for two reasons. The first reason is not all knives use the same angle: Different knife designs require different sharpening techniques. The second reason is free hand sharpening allows me to modify not only the edge but the blade design if the knife has sustained damage. Even though your knives are sharpened free hand, my 15 years of experience ensures precise bevels and clean edges.

A multi step process is used for each knife I sharpen to produce the best edge possible. The majority of tools I use are custom made for my system. Each knife is different so different types of knives will be sharpened using different methods. Using more than one system helps me tailor the correct edge needed for a specific knife. A chef knife will be sharpened differently than a sushi knife which will be sharpened differently than your Fathers old fishing knife. The different methods create different finishes on the blade. The finishing process used for a chef knife Knife spread will leave a subtle polished shine running from the edge about a half inch up the blade. Outdoor and collector knives are usually sharpened so only the edge is polished. Traditional Japanese knives are sharpened on water stones focusing only on the edge.

4. http://www.seattleknifesharpening.com/about.html, he didn't explain much on his website other than "The knives go through a 6-7 step process which leaves them razor sharp." Reviewer mentioned sometime between half day to 3 days to sharpen a knife, depending on how busy he is. Some customer used Epicurean Edge and found his service to be comparable.

I found this information the reviewer's blog (link for complete review: http://kitchenknifeguru.com/sharpeners/reviews-of-professional-knife-sharpening-services/), he describe the process as:

His method is unorthodox, but wickedly sharp. He explained that for each knife he started from as sharp an angle as he dared as his primary angle, and then ground the rest of the blade down so that it smoothly segued from the edge up to the spine. It sounds thorough, and it is. As he mentions on his site, it's a 6- to 7-step process using belt sanders and polishing wheels along with sharpening compounds. On a German-style knife this often means thinning down the blade and creating an edge angle much sharper than usual. Fine with me!

Any input where to go based on the description? I know, it wasn't ideal, but I am limited in option unfortunately. Another option is shipping it to Mac, but given the turnaround time and shipping cost, it make more sense for me to do it locally if possible.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The only one I know from experience is Epicurean edge.  They might use a wet grinder for thinning, but mostly for normal sharpening they use japanese water stones.   Hand sharpening is the best option to maintain the geometry of the knife.  The edge pro guy might make a nice crisp bevel, but he is ignoring everything behind the edge.  Over time the knife will get fatter and wedgier.  Anyone who doesn't say I suspect is using a belt sander.

So #1 or #3

OR just spend $100 on two stones and DIY   It's an investment, but you'll never pay for knife sharpening again.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Hope your MACs have gotten a decent sharpening in the 2.5 years since the last post. You can contact Epicurean Edge and ask for more details. Or drop by and see what stones they have so you're never again in the "need to have my knives professionally sharpened" scenario. 
Every person who picked up using stones hadn't used stones until they did


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for the response. 
Yes, I had the knife sharpened last year by Mac. I didn't have knowledge on how to sharpen using stone, and won't have time to learn for a while. I am just thinking of having it professionally sharpened every year or so.


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