# Carbon steel gyuto



## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Hello everyone,
I am in the market for a carbon steel gyuto (210-240mm). I don't have any carbon steel knives at the moment, and I want to get one. There are a few good deals in the $200 range (Misono for example), but I am open to suggestions. I do like White Steel, but I can't find anything that fits in that range. I am not in the USA, so ordering a knife from Japan is probably my best bet. Chefknivestogo have some pretty good knives, but they don't ship to my country. I like both European/Japanese style handles, so that's not an issue. I can buy a Misono/Fujiwara gyuto from JCK, but I am sure there are other good ones I am probably missing.

P.S I do have a collection of knives and I daresay I am a competent sharpener. Definitely not looking for a razor straight out of the box. 

Thank you in advance for your help and time.


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

Here's a quick rundown of some good carbon knives I know of, mostly based in reading on the internet though:
Misono Sweden: Great knife with great f&f and I like the profile a lot. If you're buying a carbon knife for the sake of it being carbon this could be the one that teaches you the most. Its super reactive till the patina sets in.
Fujiwara FKS: great knife for the price, but the cheap SK4 steel will smell and stain food very easily until it it settles, which is why I'm not a big fan
Togiharu VC and Suisin high carbon: I'm putting them together since they're korin knives. Korin has a french website as well as American one so you might be able to find them in Europe, I'm not sure tho
Masahiro VC(Virgin Carbon): harder steel and slightly cheaper and a lower tip, for those reasons some people prefer it over the misono, I prefer the French profile of the dragon.
Sabatiers: speaking io french, k sabatiers and thiers issard carbon knives are excellent in their own right. They're softer than Japanese gyutos but with steeling can stay sharp for just as long, and get almost as sharp, they're also a lot cheaper. There's the newer carbon or the old stock (like the Massif or the Nogent)
Masamoto has some incredible knives as well. CT and the HC, the latter being just over your budget unless you're going for 210. Used to have some f&f issues with the handles but that was years ago, not sure how they are now, still, some people with a lot more experience than I think of them as the best mass produced Jknives.
You can find some white and blue steel knives for under 200 but with a San Mai build, aka W or B steel wrapped in another steel, if you want a carbon knife just get one with a non stainless outer layer, there's a lot of those, some have a Kurouchi (KU) finish that makes them not as reactive but that will eventually wear off. I like the Tanaka blue#2 from k&s, they carry a KU finish one and a Damascus finish one, again the latter is just over 200 for the 240mm
These are just general suggestions of some knives that are only similar in that they're not stainless. There's a lot more to take into consideration, do you want a workhouse or a laser? how do you like your profile? And many many others.
Hope this helped either way,
Ali


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Thank you both. I like the fact that the Misono is quite thin. I tend to like thin blades and I never bang them around either. Yes, I am aware of their asymmetrical grind. Masahiros are good too, I agree. I've never owned one, but I've only heard good things about them. Yeah, carbon steel is quite reactive, but it definitely has its advantages. I like the fact that the Swedish steel they use is finely grained. I am not too worried about edge retention as I can always resharpen the knife.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Yeah the knives and stones tanaka has better fit and finish and a handle upgrade over other vendors. It's still in your budget too. The great thing about carbon is you can thin it very easily (and you should occasionally when you sharpen).

http://www.knivesandstones.com/blue-2/

Also take a look at this:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...-aogami-super-stainless-cladding-by-kurosaki/

The 210 is in your price range, the 240 is a little over. It's stainless clad so only the last cm near the edge is exposed carbon. More annoying to thin and refinish, but easier to manage reactivity. It's a fair tradeoff.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Excellent suggestions, thank you. I just read that Misonos are more reactive that some of the other carbon knives. I am usually pretty clean and I don't mind rinsing the knife from time to time. However, is it going to make my onions/tomatoes stink to high heavens?


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Won't the knife stop leaving black marks once patina has set in? I little bit more iron in my diet won't hurt, but the folks at home won't be very happy.  Yes, some people create really cool patterns with vinegar, mustard, etc.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

That's true. My grandparents never used stainless steel. I just can't warrant the purchase of another stainless steel knife. After a while they all start to look/feel the same (to me). The Swedish carbon steel seems to be decent, so why not?  The ones from the Australian store are pretty cool too. Shirogami #2 will probably blow the Misonos out of the water, but I still like their profile.

I came across several good looking blue steel gyutos on ebay but the seller makes no mention of their hardness. I'd expect it to be somewhere between 60-62.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Too bad the Ikazuchi is sold out for a change.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...uchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

rick alan said:


> Too bad the Ikazuchi is sold out for a change.
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...uchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto


It's stainless clad which defeats the point, hence I didn't recommend it.
Anyways, I've talked to Jon about this and he told me he's ordered a shipment a couple of months ago, so it should be back in stock in 3 - 4 months tops, cuz it takes time.
But speaking of this, i was looking at 200 ish USD lasers, im torn between this and the ashi hamono And the Sakai takayuki grand chef and the Sakai yusuke W2. What's your take on them?


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

benuser said:


> In what respect?


It's probably a bit more pure, but again, I've never used Misonos before. Misonos are cheaper probably because of the fact that they are mass produced (stamped) which doesn't make them bad. White steel heat treated to 62+ HRC will probably take a finer edge but that's why the Misono costs $100 and not $300.  I am not the best cook in the world, so it should be more than good enough for people like me.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I've read that article before, it's quite good. Don't get me wrong, by "mass produced" I didn't mean they were of poor quality. They are cheaper for several reasons (some of which were mentioned in the article). As a matter of fact, all my knives are "mass produced" but I can't complain. I do wonder if the Misonos (hardened to about 60 HRC) get sharper than a SS knife hardened to (61 HRC). Sharper than a properly thinned and sharpened Shun, for example. That's what I've got basically, SS knives in that range.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Understand also that knives from mass manufactures are typically 2+ hardness points below claims. There are very fine grained stainless like aeb-l/13C26, and R2 done right takes an edge close and perhaps equal to the best carbons. Personally I like the PM steel SRS-15, sharpens pretty easy and takes a very good edge for stainless, and it holds it's sharp much better than most anything. For serious board work it's hard to beat.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

aliphares said:


> It's stainless clad which defeats the point, hence I didn't recommend it.
> Anyways, I've talked to Jon about this and he told me he's ordered a shipment a couple of months ago, so it should be back in stock in 3 - 4 months tops, cuz it takes time.
> But speaking of this, i was looking at 200 ish USD lasers, im torn between this and the ashi hamono And the Sakai takayuki grand chef and the Sakai yusuke W2. What's your take on them?


The Ashi by consensus. Get the extra-hard if going aeb-l.


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

rick alan said:


> The Ashi by consensus. Get the extra-hard if going aeb-l.


I was torn between it sns the white, leaning more to white though honestly. But then I found a lot of offerings within Europe for the same price, but half the shipping rates from Japan and no customs because it's from within the EU. I don't want to kidnap the thread so I'll send you a couple of links later on, I'd love your opinion on them


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I like PMs too. I've only ever used HAP-40 knives though.(they weren't mine, so I haven't owned one) I think they can be very expensive though. If there's anything "decent" in the $200 range, I am all ears. I've never ordered any Japanese style knives from Europe, so if there are any stores I'd definitely like to have a look.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I've never been too big on edge retention. I don't use my knives all the time anyway, plus, I enjoy sharpening them. JCK have their own brand and they seem to be offering knives made of different steels. Are JCK's knives of decent quality? They have some reasonably priced knives but something tells me "that's too good to be true".


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I haven't used Powdered steel knives long enough. The one I used cut well and it looked pretty nice. A few months ago I bought a chef knife made of ZA-18 and it has served me well so far. I don't know much about the steel but their edge retention is pretty good in my opinion. I don't know who makes their knives or how they make them, but their Blue Steel knives are pretty cheap. I'd expect a $98 blue steel gyuto to have some serious problems.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

This one: https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...s/jck-natures-blue-moon-series-wa-gyuto-210mm 
I like the finish but the price....


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

Cheaper knives are usually thicker, this is 181g for a 210, so I'm guessing this will be a pretty chunky knife. 
About what you said benuser, curiously enough, just the other day I was talking to koki about the deep impact series. Particularly, about how they compare to the misono Sweden and carbonext, and he seemed to stir me towards the other two. This is part of the email:
"Deep Impact Aogami Super knives are good Carbon steel knives especially if you would like thin blade profile and great sharpness, edge retention of Aogami Super knife.
But among our serious users, for overall quality and price point, the CarboNext knife and Misono Sweden Steel knives are having much high reputation from our serious users.
Therefore, we are recommending CarboNext and Misono Sweden Steel Series knives more.
But if you would like to try Aogami Super knife and you would like thinner profile knives, Deep Impact knives can be good choice for your needs."
I was surprised honestly, as I liked the idea of getting one as a hiromoto clone and get it the "SPA treatment"
I know you like them but how do you think they fair against the hiromoto AS? Do you think I should go for that or one of the other two instead ? (I'm guessing the answer will be a masahiro tho )
And the second question is, do you know of any good knife customizers and rehandlers close to NL? I'd rather not send my knives to the US to get them all prettied up.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

That's possible. The good thing is that a thick knife can always be thinned down. Believe it or not, I've seen blue/white steel knives in the $300 range and they were on the thick side. I have decent coarse stones, so getting it sorted won't be too much of a problem. All that being said, I do like the profile of the Misonos. It appears that Misonos have passed the test of time and a lot of people love them. The Aogami knives will probably have a slightly better edge retention, but that's not a big deal for me.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

These knives are pretty interesting: https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...no-2-clad-series-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizes
I don't think that blade thickness is a problem for someone who's a good sharpener. Most knives will have to be thinned at some point (or at least in my experience). JCK's line of Aogami #2 knives look pretty decent to me. I don't know if they are overly thick. I will get a Misono for sure, but the only thing that keeps me from purchasing one of the JCKs is that I don't know anything about them, nor have I ever used one. Everyone says that JCK don't sell junk, so this might be a good deal. At that price point, I won't be surprised if the knives are made somewhere in China. Everything that's made there isn't bad, so they might be okay.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

That's an interesting suggestion. I think you said that Misono's carbon steel had similar composition to White Steel which is great, because White Steel does take a very fine edge. If edge retention is it's only downside, then I might as well pull the trigger and order it. I don't mind sharpening it. 
Thinning SS blades can be quite difficult and time consuming but still doable. I've had to thin stainless steel blades before, so I know what you mean. They cut very well now but their "out of the box" profiles were not exactly "stellar".


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I haven't had any clogging problems on cladded knives with a cheap King 300 stone, and scratches clean up quickly with any 1K stone. It's not the fastest but fast enough, moderately soft but doesn't dish too quickly. The 220 pink bricks are real metal removers and still pretty cheap, but good to have a fast 1k or sub-1K stone as the next progression step with that one. JKI sells the softest/fastest/less-likely-to-clog version.

But it is a real bear trying to do any serious thinning on any heavy thick knife at less than a 3 degree angle. The DP has an edge lead-in that probably comes in at less then 2 deg, it's going to be a better cutter than what you will likely have the patience to produce yourself on a heavy thick knife.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I did some more reading and it turned out that the Misonos are probably hardened to 57-58 HRC (even though most online stores say 60). I don't know about you but I don't like that number. I guess most manufacturers lie about the actual hardness of their knives...Ahh...tough times.


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

benuser said:


> I'm not that surprised. JCK obviously has a supply problem with the Deep Impact, being regularly out of stock, for a long time. That means very small batches.
> How they compare to the Hiromoto AS?
> Finer grain, much harder steel, micarta handle, more elaborate grinding, much better Fit&Finish. I must admit I only had the 210 gyuto and still have the 150 petty. Still curious about the 240.
> Have owned and seen quite some Hiromotos. Fit&Finish and grinding have changed a lot in those years. And from time to time surprises did occur. Price was much lower than with the Deep Impact.


So should I look for used hiromotos over on KKF or go for a new deep impact? I'm getting it thinned, etched, and rehandlers either way so f&f isn't important, just the steel itself.


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

Hornviper said:


> I did some more reading and it turned out that the Misonos are probably hardened to 57-58 HRC (even though most online stores say 60). I don't know about you but I don't like that number. I guess most manufacturers lie about the actual hardness of their knives...Ahh...tough times.


Honestly I don't think that matters that much, the HRC isn't the be all end all measurement that many people think it is. Everyone still agrees the misono gets stupid sharp and has good retention.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Masahiro's line of virgin carbon steel knives seem to be pretty decent too. Do you guys know where I can find one? I don't know if JCK have them in stock. There are only Masamoto knives in their virgin carbon steel section.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I'll even get to practice my Swedish.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Have you ever purchased knives from "cleancut"? The whole site's in Swedish and it's making my head spin.  I found one on "knifemerchant.com" and this one, but I don't think it's the same knife: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-M...857666?hash=item361bfde382:g:RBwAAOSwl8NVgEsn

I am kind of surprised those Masahiros are so hard to find.


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## sushi-nate (Jan 18, 2017)

Hornviper said:


> Hello everyone,
> I am in the market for a carbon steel gyuto (210-240mm). I don't have any carbon steel knives at the moment, and I want to get one. There are a few good deals in the $200 range (Misono for example), but I am open to suggestions. I do like White Steel, but I can't find anything that fits in that range. I am not in the USA, so ordering a knife from Japan is probably my best bet. Chefknivestogo have some pretty good knives, but they don't ship to my country. I like both European/Japanese style handles, so that's not an issue. I can buy a Misono/Fujiwara gyuto from JCK, but I am sure there are other good ones I am probably missing.
> 
> P.S I do have a collection of knives and I daresay I am a competent sharpener. Definitely not looking for a razor straight out of the box.
> ...


Have you tried to contact chefknivestogo personally. They have great customer service and may ship you one directly.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Yes, that's how it is, I am afraid. The only Masahiro Virgin Carbon I found was on "Knifemerchant.com" (30$ for shipping). The only one I found in Europe was rather overpriced (in my humble opinion).
Misono's steel might be softer (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) than Masahiro's but that's something I will have to live with. If it's good enough for thousands of professional chef's, it will be more than good enough for a home cook like me. Soft or not, I don't mind sharpening several times a week. I am right-handed but the 240mm gyuto might be too big for me.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Japanese company selling Masahiro on ebay, I wonder if you can make that wok for you, appears to be $8 shipping to EU: *https://tinyurl.com/Masahiro-on-ebay*

That one is limited to the 180 and 210, but search further and you can find the 240 in "Butcher's steel", whatever that is.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Has anyone ever used/seen these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-S...334081?hash=item362fed9801:g:vrIAAOSwDvVa0FVg ? It is pretty thick but that problem can be remedied. The seller makes no mention of hardness, etc. Why am I not surprised...
I think the rosewood handled Masahiros are made of different steel, hence the price. I don't know how soft those Misonos are but I do like their profile.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The example shows what is definitely a hand-forged item, with rounding of spine and choil, nicely thin though not so much at the tip, but that is not necessarily exactly what you will get as Benuser implied.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

benuser said:


> What makes you think it's thick? Spine thickness hardly matters for performance. Thickness behind the edge is decisive, not the spine thickness.


 That was the kind of thickness I had in mind. I find that knife quite thick behind the edge, as you can see in one of the pictures. I am not at all worried about its spine thickness. That's true. One can't expect much at that price point.
Masahiro, Misono and CarboNext remain my only options. (under $150 that is).


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Benuser, are the stainless clad blue steel knives by Kagayaki thick behind the edge? If the HT's done right, they might be pretty decent performers, but I assume they are a nightmare to thin.


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## aliphares (Jan 7, 2018)

You should also check out tanakas over on knives and stones


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I ordered a Masahiro a couple of days ago, so I decided to let you guys know.  About $100 for a 240 VC gyuto sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Benuser, how asymmetrical are they? Some say 100/0, others 95/5, etc. Not that it makes too much of a difference to me. If the former is true, then I believe that thinning only one side of the blade (the right side in my case, as I am right-handed) will suffice.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

I'd choose performance over looks any day of the week. Unfortunately I learned that "All that is gold does not glitter" the hard way. Some say the Fujiwaras are not bad but SK-4 does contain quite a bit of sulfur. You have a Fujiwara sujihiki, don't you?


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

Hmm...that's quite interesting. Do you think Masahiro and Fujiwara carbons are on par? The 240mm gyutos go for about $82 on JCK. And I thought the Masahiro was going to be my last knife... As always.


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## james adcock (Dec 14, 2016)

I have a JCK Original Kagayaki Blue Steel No.2 Clad Series Santoku 170mm (7 inch) which I am very happy with. They also have gyutos (link below). I oil the reactive part of the blade with Camellia and an Aburatsubo, but it will still pick up a patina eventually. It is a clad knife so only a strip near the edge picks up the patina.

https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...to-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizes?variant=29165073987


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

The Masahiro VC arrived a few days ago. Well, it's a decent knife and mine wasn't overly thick behind the edge, but I think it still needs a bit of thinning. It seems to be more asymmetric than the other knives in its price range. I kind of wonder why Masahiro opted for a 100/0 or 95/5 grind.


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## Hornviper (Nov 11, 2017)

He's managed to overgrind the heel with just two strokes. The apprentice has done his homework. I only thinned the right side of the blade. Do you thin both of sides? The knife cuts very well, it doesn't wedge into carrots, celeriac, etc, but I will try thinning the left side too, why not? I didn't notice any steering but that could be just me. Even if it steers a bit, it's not a big deal.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

A blade this thin won't steer much anyway. Don't worry about it. If you like the edge now, then from now on do all your real grinding on the face and just deburr on the back. In time it'll shift by itself, and it's much quicker to sharpen. I've done this for years on my Masamoto KS, and it's been great.


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