# japanese (thin/light) vs western (thick/heavy)



## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Hi all. Just going through the age old battle in regards to the Japanese knives being so thin, sharp and light, vs the heavy, thick and more forgiving western style knives. Now I do own both a Shun santoku and an Icel 10" chefs knife. Thinking I would of prefered the chefs knife in the Shun also. I'm always swapping between the 2 knives when prepping food, mostly vegetables and fruits, occasionally meat. I really appreciate the razor sharpness of the Shun but I'm finding its all down to what your cutting. My heavy chefs knife splits zuchinis, carrots, etc length wise better, and also dices the carrots better. Its also much easier to cut tomatoes with which really suprised me. The Shun does perform better on onions and other soft vegetables though. Point being, I can't even pick between the 2 styles just cutting vegetables. They both have a place for me. The shun is super sharp but without the weight, it requires more effort on some cuts then I think it should. Is there maybe an in between knife? Still thin with an acute cutting edge but heavier also?
The larger, heavier 10" chefs knife does seem more versatile to me than the sleek, razor sharp Shun. Maybe I should just buy a large paring knife/utility knife with a thin profile to compliment the 10" chefs knife. What's everyone's personal preferences? I've never heard of Icel before either but I'd consider it a decent mid range knife


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

You can have any number of expensive knives, but sometimes it's good to keep a beater around that is hard to damage (and you don't really care if you damage it).


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I completely understand your observations. I have (and use) both Shun and western chef knives (German and American). The Shun performs quite good but the others are better for harder materials - like squash, carrots and chicken joints. Both kinds of knives have a place and I, too, swap between them depending on what's being cut.  If your Shun is requiring a lot of pressure it is possible that it needs a re-sharpening.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You can thin both your present knives as Benuser pointed out [the very real need] and be happy with that improvement. You obviously feel more comfortable with the big knife, but with the Shun thinned out I believe you will find it better at all tasks mentioned. VG10 is not a super-steel, but it is far better than the crap stainless of the Icel. With some effort you can get the soft stainless Icel pretty sharp, but it won't stay that way for long. You can save the Icel as a beater for splitting squash and such with abandon.

Or pick up a Hiromoto AUS10 270 gyuto while they're still available at JCK, $137 shipped and you won't have use for your other 2 knives every again, accept the beater occasionally.

If you can consider stainless clad carbon there are a number of knives in blue#2 that are also very reasonably priced.

Rick


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Thankyou everyone for you input. When you say thinning of the knife, are you referring to sharpening them at a more acute angle?

I will definitely look into the Hiromoto Rick, sounds like an improvement over both of mine. I did originally purchase the icel as a beater knife for heavier foods. I think a large gyuto might be the way to go. 

As for the Shun being blunt, it did blunt quite quickly after the first 2 uses. A quick hone everyday its used keeps it pretty sharp. Just sometimes needs a bit of a push but usually cuts well if just honed. Just seems a little more tempermental where as the big beater knife just crushes with its weight and doesn't seem to need sharpening as often. But I hone my knives before or after every use regardless. I just think the weight is benificial on harder produce but I've not tried many knives to really know

Thanks again everyone


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Ah, now I understand. The knives are relatively new so shouldn't have dramas there yet. 

As for the sharpening, I don't consider myself good enough with a steel or stone so I use a Kitchen IQ brand with the set Vs. But has an adjustable angle from 14° right up to 24°, as well as having a coarse, ceramic sharpener on one side and a fine honing V on the other side. Obviously for best results I should learn to properly use a steel or stone but I was scared of damaging the aesthetics on the shun blade. Haha. I've sharpened my Shun down to 14° from its original 16°


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Shuns and many knives like the Icel are excessively thick behind the edge as they come brand new.  You can try thinning yourself using course sandpaper in place of a 400 grit stone like Benuser has described in recent posts.  You could send the Shun out for thinning but you can't justify the expense for the Icel.  Once thinned adequately you won't need the weight or size of the Icel, though many do prefer a long knife.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You guys might be right about some thickness behind the edge, but the more significant issue could be the sharpening technique.  KitchenIQ are inexpensive pull-through and powered sharpeners.  I suspect that sharpening technique may be more of the issue than thickness, especially for the Shun being discussed above.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Oh brother...Here we go again...

Sharpening aside, with Shuns in particular the marketing department made a completely conscious decision to make their classic too thick for efficient cutting in order to allow a particular asthetic on their faux Damascus.  It's .025 right behind the edge, too thick already (this is also perhaps a precaution as Shun's VG10 tends to be on the chippy side compared to other popular VG10 knives), and then bulges out like a whale's head from there.  Absolutely every person knowledgeable here has said about the same thing, including BDL,a former knife guru here.  And that is half the reason why one person here recently came to the brilliant and contradictory conclusion that relatively inexpensive Forgecrafts where better knives.

For those used to typical German knives a Shun Classic seems like a good example of the breed.  It is essentially a German knife made in Japan out of a Japanese steel.  But in comparison to a Japanese knife, even an entry level one like the Tojiro DP costing just less than 1/3 the price, it's not a favorably comparable cutter.

Actually the best thing you could do for the Shun is ruin that faux Damascus some.  It's going to get ugly with use anyway, along with the decals.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Where are we going again? Discussing different experiences with knives?

Shuns work well for me and a lot of others. So do Forge craft. But I think you may be stretching my statement just a bit that they are better. I don't remember saying that but I do say that Forgies are wicked sharp and a whole lot cheaper. 

Shun (and any VG10 I've used) are hard to sharpen. That makes them hard to sharpen not bad knives. The OP may need to worry about sharpening skills and then worry thickness of that becomes an issue. Even the late BDL would agree with that. 

The forgoes, by the way, don't seem any thinner behind the edge than an off the shelf Shun. I don't have a micrometer handy at this moment by can do the measures if there is interest 

In general, most cooks don't need scalpel quality blades to cook good. So when you say "knowledgable people" are you talkimg about knife geeks or experienced cooks?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Wipe your tears Brian, in a recent post you had the tumerity to say to me directly and right out of the blue that I was full of BS, and you have implied as much in other posts even though my opinions on the subjects where completely in line with the predominant wisdom.  Mostly I ignored those comments of yours to avoid obfuscating things.

I'm just trying to give the OP sound advice here, based on not mere opinion but what is simply imutable physical data and otherwise easily followed science-based fact, while you appear to still be defending a purchase you recently admitted regretting.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

So you want me to go away; is that how to read your rather offensive posts of recent? I too share info to help, not to bully or swagger. Your opinions tend to be he extreme and supported by about two other experts. Hardly a majority but a very passionate minority. I'm ok with that.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I have no regrets. I did find another very affordable option though.

And feel free to ignore me; I won't be offended.

But do you really think that sharpening might not be a valid issue... That thinning alone or buying another knife is the only way to solve the poor guys problem?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Supported by only 2 [experts]? My offensive posts of recent? Brian you're a trip


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

how about if we stop obfuscating other folks threads. Let's start our own to bicker; okay? Or use PMs. Or just call; I'm sure a chat over a nice cup of tea would soothe sore feelings. 

vinnie asked for opinions. I gave mine and you gave yours. Let's both be happy and hopefully Vinnie will be happy too. Peace out.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Here's one of my favorite videos and the one that got me started free hand sharpening. He does a very good explanation of the difference between Western and Japanese geometry. There are other more "technical" ones on youtube, but I find this highly entertaining as well.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Is powda sharpen de knife!  Yes fun video

Rick


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Vinnie Sam said:


> Is there maybe an in between knife? Still thin with an acute cutting edge but heavier also?


You may consider a yo-deba, which is not a deba at all, but rather a pretty hefty gyuto.


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Hi all, sorry for the delay. I've been using the knives a lot more and have re sharpened my shun santoku and paring knife to 14 degrees. They are both rather sharp and now cut effortlessly after a proper sharpen and hone. I should add that I bought the cheaper Shun soras which may be thinner. I think they have a more attractive blade then the more expensive ones too. I think it was more of a not properly sharp issue. I now really enjoy the Japanese blades and would like a Shun chefs knife also. I rarely touch the large German chefs knife anymore but will still use it as a hack on tough produce when I don't want to damage my shuns. It cuts through tough skin like an avocado almost like s serrated knife. 

I also found that video on the sharpening very interesting and informative. I will definitely be looking to practice this but for now my pull through sharpener does a surprisingly good job. As a few people have stated, when you go Japanese and you learn the correct way of using the knife (helps if the knife is properly sharp) I really have little interest in the German knives. They still have a place but if I wanted to crush and split my food, I'd use an axe. The Japanese blades are so refined, the cuts are smooth and you loose very little juices in comparison.

I'm guessing most people here that have used Shuns would have used the classics. I can't speak from experience as ive never used the dearer Shuns but I think the basic Sora models are pretty close in specs and for the price, you can buy 2 Shun Sora knives to 1 wusthof knife which may have an acute cutting edge of 14 degrees but use a softer 56 rated steel vs the Shuns 60 +

After a 18cm santoku, a10" western chefs knife, a 3.5" paring knife, is there really any other knives that are essential? Or I should say, make life easier without nessacerally being essential. I would like a Japanese chefs knife, smaller then a 10". Something with more curve then the santoku so I can not only rock but make slice cuts like a utility knife. What's everyone's personal collection like?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Good for you Vinnie. Congratulations!

One other knife I consider essential: serrated bread knife and a proper boning knife. A long, thin meat slicer is nice too but mine doesn't get frequently used.

p.s. A properly sharpened German knife and an axe are two totally different tools. Ask any European-trained chef since about 1682 AD. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Lol. Very true about the axe Brian, I over exaggerated just a little there. Haha.

I would definitely agree with the bread knife. I think cheap is okay for a serrated knife no?

I have been looking at boning knives and slicers. Any particular recommendations on those two?


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

I think dexter russel might be okay for the boning knife, they are definitely common...but is it going to be harder cutting then using say a Japanese style boning knife? I guess for the price difference alone you would just buy a dexter russel for around a fifth of the price of a Shun boning knife


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

To not get murdered on shipping and import tax, check out this Australian retailer http://www.knivesandstones.com/

He has stuff from Tojiro to Shigefusas. All depends on your price range.


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Thankyou for the link MillionsKnives, they do have some good gear. I quite like the Tojiro. Although their handles are slightly square, they are quite cheap. I do like the look of the Deba knives.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Vinnie Sam said:


> After a 18cm santoku, a10" western chefs knife, a 3.5" paring knife, is there really any other knives that are essential?


A Chinese cleaver.


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Just have something to add about blades chipping. Although the Shuns have a reputation for being brittle and chipping. My two shuns have zero chipping, despit hitting the board firmly on quite a few occasions...yet the Icel brand 10" chefs knife with its softer 56-57 rating steel and 20 degree edge chips every time I use it. Bad batch/quality control or bad brand of knife? Was still up there in the dollars, very close to the price of my Shun. I will be returning it to King of Knives for an exchange


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

I agree Benuser, the steel should be too soft to chip but it's fairly noticeable to the eye, not to mention very rough feeling. There are now closer to a dozen of these spots. What ever they may be, ive not really seen them on a knife unless its been abused, left to corrode, used like an axe, etc. I'm thinking I might replace it with a cheaper Victorinox chefs knife with the fibrerox handle. Not forged but I can purchase one for as little as $49. Most people have good things to say about victorinox.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Factory edges can be pretty weak.  I wouldn't think much of it unless you've already sharpened.

Victorinox used to be a good deal, but considering you can go ahead and get a Tojiro DP for $7 more, maybe not.  The price point they used to occupy is now taken up by wusthof pro line at $24.


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

I've sharpened the knife quite heavily twice already, not to mention alot more honing and I've had it a matter of weeks. I've re-profiled the edge on it, just seems like rubbish steel. Maybe others have had better luck with the same brand. In saying that Im far from an expert at sharpening, I could be doing things wrong. But my Shuns perform beautifully with the same sharpening process, no burs that I can see.

The Tojiro really do keep popping up everywhere I look. They seem like a real bargain japanese style blade considering everyone says they easily match a Shun for quality, some even prefer the Tojiro. They do have a large selection of them at my local knife shop too. I will see if I can use a few different styles in the Tojiro when I go down. 

I'm really doing a lot more slicing cuts rather then push cuts now I must admit too due to being paranoid about chipping the knives. I'm actually starting to prefer slicing/pull cuts alot more, especially with the smaller knives. But my knife skills are pretty average in saying that. 
Do some people use almost exclusively push/rocking cuts versus slicing/pull cuts or vice versa?
I find the slices give cleaner, more symmetrical cuts vs ME push cutting.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I like push for harder vegetables, pull for softer stuff. See Salty's video:


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Push, pull, rock... I know I do them all but I never think too hard about which technique to use. I'm generally more focus on cooking and just do what works best. I envy people with enough time on their hands to analyze the minutia of detail regarding "when/how/why/what-if" cutting food for cooking. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I don't really think about it.  My technique varies by knife.  I do a lot of cleaver push cutting now.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

MillionsKnives said:


> I like push for harder vegetables, pull for softer stuff. See Salty's video:


I love Salty's three martini knife demos - /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## zapf (Mar 30, 2015)

I never liked shun my self do to it really isn't a true jap style knife. I switch from my jaw knifes which is kikuichi I use it for veggies and slicing meat since I have a 300cm knife and my wustoff for breaking bones, frozen, or very hard veggies. My problem with eastern knifes are how brittle they are while I dislike western knifes for how dull they are


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Great video MillionsKnives, really shows how the different techniques work regarding different hardness of the produce.

And yes Brian, just a little too much time on my hands. Haha. And I've developed quite an interest in knives recently, not too mention cooking new things. Can't beat a good home cooked meal. I tend to do a lot of research when I'm not working, keeps the mind busy and I find it a very interesting subject. I mean, why the hell are there soon many different types of knives? Takes a lot of knowledge and experience to know what is useful for you or what is easier, more efficient to use.

I have to say I am curious about trying a cleaver. I understand the Chinese cleaver is more closely related to a nakiri or santoku rather then a meat cleaver, you don't swing it?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You really need to try a Chinese Cleaver!


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

Okay, visiting the shop today changed my mind again. I asked to try some dearer knives. I tried some dearer Japanese blades including the Shun Premier against the Wosthof Classic Ikon...the Wostohf is out of this world. Sharper again, even with a 20 degree edge! It peeled my finger like a fruit. Haha. I now prefer the wosthof classic ikon. It is sharper then a shun, won't chip and can cut heavier items also. As well as allowing some blade flex with cutting the length of a carrot, etc. Which is nice I feel, less compromises, more pros in my opinion. I was very happy with it in the test. Time will tell if I still feel the same way.

Where would you recommend purchasing a cheap Chinese cleaver Brian? eBay perhaps?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The factory edge from Shun is not great, whereas the Ikon has a much thinner edge and decent OTB sharpening.  It is sharpening that makes the difference here, as it will with any knife you bring home and eventually will get dull and have to be sharpened.

SG-2 is a far superior steel to the bottom-barrel steel of the Ikon.  That being said there are much better and less expensive options in SG-2, and other steels, than the Shun.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Vinnie Sam said:


> Okay, visiting the shop today changed my mind again. I asked to try some dearer knives. I tried some dearer Japanese blades including the Shun Premier against the Wosthof Classic Ikon...the Wostohf is out of this world. Sharper again, even with a 20 degree edge! It peeled my finger like a fruit. Haha. I now prefer the wosthof classic ikon. It is sharper then a shun, won't chip and can cut heavier items also. As well as allowing some blade flex with cutting the length of a carrot, etc. Which is nice I feel, less compromises, more pros in my opinion. I was very happy with it in the test. Time will tell if I still feel the same way.
> 
> Where would you recommend purchasing a cheap Chinese cleaver Brian? eBay perhaps?


Hey Vinnie,

There was a thread on cleavers recently that talked about options, from hundred dollar (and more, I think) to inexpensive. You should check it out since "Millions" contributed a lot of his knowledge... and he is really smart on cleavers. The Chinese cleaver I've used for 40 years is a Dexter. Amazon or eBay has them at very reasonable prices. I use mostly for veg but have taken apart chickens with it too. Not bashing bones into submission, but separating at joints. 

Interesting observations you make of Ikon vs Shun .Are you sure that the one's you tested had a 30 deg edge? I was surprised about your experience until reading about Ikon's 13 degree angle. Then it made sense. That seems to be a recent marketing ploy to make it sharper initially but might not be good for the long run. I don't think I could live with blade flex except for in a boning or fillet knife though. I've never had a concern about Shun out-of-the-box sharpness. Mine have all been frighteningly sharp and they have held their edge rather good in home use. But when they get dull...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

"Frighteningly" sharp is a very relative experience.  I've never heard any of the frequent flyers over at KKF every refer to the OTB sharpness of Shuns as Frightening Sharp. My Shun certainly wasn't.

Shun advertises 16deg/side.  What actually happens at the factory is a v-grind is put on the edge at "approximately" somewhere around16deg, then that is hit with a buffing wheel which removes considerable material from the edge going in the obtuse direction.  By all appearances it is not a very well controlled process and edges can get burned in places as mine was.  So you really don't know what you are going to get from one box to the next.

Wusty at least uses a laser measuring tool to tell the operator if he is reasonably in spec, and there is no buffing afterwards.  Last I saw they "advertised" 15deg/side actually.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I base my statement on experience with 5 Shun Classic or Premier knives.  First hand experience.  I certainly respect all other experience and opinions, but...


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## vinnie sam (Jun 29, 2015)

From what I've read I thought the Wosthof was sharpened at 14 degrees. But the fella at the shop said 20 degrees which surprised me. I'd believe 14 over 20 but I don't imagine it holding an edge for as long as a harder blade if it's that acute. But all in all I think I preferred the wusthof, but in saying that I still have my Japanese blades so I can and will swap between them as I choose.

Hi Brian. The blade flex was very slight on the tip, just enough that you can follow the curve of a carrot, etc, when cutting one in half lengthways. The Japanese knives are very stiff in general and only cut straight line without being able to make slight turns I guess. Doesn't feel like I will snap the tip off and it has a little more weight in the wusthof which I like for ease of cutting. But it's not so heavy that you get tired picking it up over and over. It's a nice medium for me. That's not to say I don't like the Japanese ones, I've not actually tested any with SG2 steel. You'd have to buy those first. But I didn't like the Shun premier as much as the wusthof classic ikon. But I'm starting to learn that there are better Japanese blades out there so to be fair on making a Japanese vs western knife comparison, wusthof being one of the best western brands I feel, it would only be fair that I tested it against a top of the line Japanese knife, preferably with the SG2 powdered steel or something of that quality. From what the gentleman in the shop told me, there is really only one place in Japan that make the SG2 steel and for a while it was quite hard to get. Hence the high price these knives can fetch. 

Considering I picked up the classic ikon 8" chefs knife for $151 Australian dollars, Im pretty happy. My Shun sora cost me $144 but I bought that from a shop. Same shop had the wusthof listed at $288 from memory.

Hi Rick. I did ask the shop owner if the Shun could be as sharp with a proper sharpen as I suspected that the wusthof may have just been through a more thorough sharpening process from factory. But there are other qualities about the blade that I believe made it perform better when cutting. The blade seems thinner for longer heading up towards the spine on the wusthof and it tapers thinner near the tip. I admit the shop keeper was a die hard wusthof man and was probably trying to convert me. Haha. But I will use both styles at home over the next few months and see how they go. 

Did you have a link to that cleaver discussion Brian? If not, no stress. I'll just do a search for it.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

This was my thread:

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/85968/cleaver-believer

I would also recommend reading this:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...course-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post

And watch any original iron chef battles with Chen Kenichi on youtube


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

and don't forget to check out the numerous YouTube videos in which Martin Yan breaks down a chicken with a cleaver.  Its impressive in video and even more impressive to see in person.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

One big technique change is when julienne-ing anything with a cleaver.  Instead of planking and stacking, I slice stuff then lay it out just overlapping all the way across the board. Never more than 2 layers at any point.  Then I work my way across the board as uniformly as possible. 

So instead of stack, cut, clear, stack, cut, clear, etc.   I just cut cut cut cut across the whole board.

This isn't just for normal sized matchsticks, I'd use the same technique for paper thin slices and hair sized threads too


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Vinnie in regards to OTB sharpness the only thing really to understand is that it is virtually meaningless. On any given day my humble ordinary Ikon is sharper than any other Ikon or Shun OTB. And from my perspective I don't consider that even to be frighteningly/scary sharp.

Scary sharp is when the weight of a 5oz knife [freshly sharpened] is more than sufficient for it to fall thru a tomato skin, and anything close to that. Any edge that can push cut through a tomato skin without much force could be considered scary sharp. And to make really thin clean cuts that is the kind of knife you want. Even just for the thrill of using it (without cutting the hell out of yourself).

But even using a fine diamond loaded strop I don't think you could get an Ikon close to that, and even if it did it wouldn't stay that way for long. A decent knife in SG-2 on the other hand will be scary sharp enough just off a good set of stones, a carbon CCK cleaver could also I believe, even if for safety's sake you don't want to make a knife that sharp right now. Something to seriously consider when you're just stepping up to sharp knives.

You can be perfectly happy with an Ikon, but for the money there are much better options. And, as always, your sharpening makes the lion's share of the actual working difference.

Rick


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