# Looking for good stainless 270mm or 240mm gyuto for under $250



## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Hi all,

I'm looking for a good stainless gyuto to compliment my current knife selection. I have some Shun knives and love them, but they don't make a gyuto long enough to suit my tastes, which is too bad, since I live near Portland and can get free sharpenings from Kai.

Thanks,

Alex


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

H DevOps, welcome to CT

Any particular weight, handle, profile, or aesthetic preferences? Edge retention and or edge taking qualities valued?

How will you be sharpening this knife?

As an aside, looks like Epicurean Edge is about 3 hours from you. They have business hours, so I assume that means they have a store front and should have knives you can look at in person if that interests you. Not ideal on the distance, but it's about what my drive is to good J-knives I can see in person.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

I like the D handle of my Shun knives, so would like to stick with similar wa style handles. Looking for Japanese chef knife/gyuto profile since I already have a regular chef's knife. Don't have a weight or thickness preference. For me it's all about being able to control the blade precisely. For instance, the Shun knives tend to drift a bit when cutting an onion in half. So yeah, sharpness and being able to hold an edge are key. Since I only have experience with double edged knives would like to keep with that for now.

Basically, the Shun knives are good. Way better than any German knives, but I'd like to have that "one" knife, you know? Something closer to awesomesauce, but I can't afford to pay more than $250.

I'd prefer to stay with stainless, but might be coaxed to venture in to high carbon steel territory with the right set of pros, but I do tend to be laid back in nature and don't want to baby the knife unless it's really worth it.

Would love advice on sharpening the knife as well. What stones are recommended and how do you know when you are at 15 or 16 degrees?


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## wens (Feb 9, 2014)

Stone recommendations depend on budget, but the conventional wisdom is probably a king 1000/6000 combo at the low end, or a bester 1200 and suihero Rika 5000 in the mid range. I don't know much about the higher end, but there's probably so much variation it would be hard to give a default anyhow. 

If you're getting a up to $250 Japanese knife, you should consider how you're going to keep it sharp. It's a different deal from European style knives, which means you're either going to have to learn to sharpen yourself, or find a local expert or send it to an expert regularly, and should consider how that effects your budget.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If you are willing to consider stainless clad carbon, then there's some good options opened up in your budget range.

For example http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-270mm-wa-gyuto/ this or the 240mm would easily be one of my top recommendations (I have a version with an octagonal burnt chestnut handle, but same blade). Exceedingly thin behind the edge but has a little bit of weight to it to aid falling through foods. Really outstanding cutting performance for the price. But I would probably avoid sharpening this one so much until the skills have been developed to not take off so much metal in one session, retaining that thinness. You'd be paying the Excl. VAT price, and it qualifies for free shipping. I did not get charged customs fees from my JNS purchase.

Another recommendation would be https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...uchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto which is pretty thin and light overall (laser-ish) and has a finesse kind of air to it, no problems with precision on this one. Comfortable octagonal handle, also stainless clad carbon.

The drifting while cutting through an onion is an indication of a wedging/steering issue that could be from the knife or could be from how it's been sharpened and maintained. Can also probably be fixed by thinning and sharpening in a way to offset the drifting. I see that issue as independent (and likely fixable) from the absolute need for another knife.

Bester 1200 & Suehiro Rika 5k are good starting options for beginner-friendly feedback and decent price range. These stones both require soaking in water before use.

15 vs 16 degrees - there's nothing to be made out of that aside from marketing. The knife's intended angles are going to be a function of your usage patterns (maximize cutting performance at the cost of some edge retention, or more conservative angle to go longer without needing to touch up the edge) and also what works with the grind of the knife and offsets steering. Safe angle range to start off with could be between 10-20 degrees per side, shooting for 30 degrees inclusive (one example could be 12 right/18 left for a slightly right hand biased blade).


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

First thing I believe you need to consider is that Shun knives, the Premier in particular, are actually German knives, though made of Japanese steel.  They have a lot of belly in the profile, and the point is way too high to be practical, it literally "shortens" the knife by making the tip end mostly unusable.  They are also thick behind the edge, usually .025" or more.  This increases effort, which reduces control, and is likely responsible for you steering issue.  Japanese knives have a flat or nearly flat edge for half or more of the blade, and the tip remains below the bottom of the handle.  A knife in the dollar range you are considering would typically be .010 at the edge, or less.  At cutting they are like night and day compared to a Premier.

As for sharpening, I doubt if many, if any, Shun knives were delivered at 16deg/side, the buffing job they do removes considerable material from the edge, in the wrong direction.  And their free sharpening is much worse.

You will absolutely need to learn how to sharpen and thin your new knife.  Send it out to ANY sharpening service, or put it through one of those motorized units, and in no time your extremely nice $200+ Itonomon or whatever, will be cutting more like your Shun.

These are the facts, regardless of make or cost, all blunted and dull knives are pretty much equal.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

...


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

My point on angles was more about how do you know the angle you are sharpening at and keep the angle consistent?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Angle consistency - practice, muscle memory. Using tricks like the magic marker/Sharpie method frequently to reinforce that you can removing metal exactly where you mean to






I have an angle cube. If I didn't I would probably have gotten a protractor and some cardboard and cut out a couple of angles- 10, 15, 20 to have as a visual guide. But the important part starting out is just to pick something in a reasonable range and commit to keeping that consistent angle during a sharpening session. The exact exact number is less important.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Why Suehiro Rika 5k instead of Arashiyama 6k?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The Rika is a bit cheaper and a very good value. It's a tried and true good stone and very beginner friendly.

Choice between the two can depend on various things, including budget, need for splash and go (Arashiyama) versus soaking okay (Rika must be soaked), level of edge refinement/polish (the Arashiyama should be able to yield a more polished edge) desired, what stone you are having to bridge the gap from, etc. I wish I could speak more than generally on the Arashiyama but I have not used that stone. I have the Rika and the feel of it is very creamy...enjoyable to use.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

OK, just curious because I read elsewhere that BDL highly recomended the Arashiyama.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@BrianShaw I take it you disagree with the other commenter's opinion on Shun? So do I.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@foody518 Any idea how the Itinomonn compares to this Miyabi?

I'm currently leaning towards the Itinomonn, but still exploring my options.
[product="27691"]Miyabi Birchwood Chefs Knife 34373 243 9 [/product]


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@foody518 Any thoughts on how the Itinomonn compares to the Miyabi birchwood 9" SG2 gyuto (34373-243)?

Currently leaning towards the Itinomonn, but still exploring my options.

Thanks,

Alex


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Alex, unfortunately I do not have any personal experience with the Miyabi birchwood. From web images the profile looks pretty usable, tip placed at a reasonable place. It has that bling factor if that is a preference. Need to look more to try and get specs and find different angled shots to try and get a feel for taper and grind. It costs more than I've paid thus far for a non-made to order/custom knife (I prefer 9-10.5 inch gyuto and the price on the 9in I saw was quite high) so the urge to buy that vs like a Shiro Kamo R2 or Shibata Kotetsu R2 is not there (if I was buying for the R2/SG2 core steel). The metal bolster and end cap will shift the balance point backwards a bit compared to a typical wa-handled knife so that's a factor that goes down to personal usage and preference. 

In general I would have somewhat of a hard time believing that a mass market knife is purposely ground as thin behind the edge as my Itinomonn. To a typical consumer who may not be particularly attentive or willing to adjust their technique (or adjusting the edge to be at a more obtuse angle for durability), using that kind of knife can potentially be a bad idea either for user or knife. But on finesse and ease of cutting it absolutely delivers. I think that difference is part of what Rick was getting at with behind the edge specs. It can have a huge difference on knife performance to have a knife that is really thin at and directly behind the edge, but you tend to have tradeoff in durability/abuse-ability and there's no getting around that that's a concern mass market sellers have to consider. 

On the stones, either one should be a good choice. I would expect the level of visual polish on the Arashiyama to be higher if you prefer a shinier vs a somewhat hazier edge bevel. If you don't have budget restrictions on that side (stone purchases), then go with whichever


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You might find this thread informative regarding the Miyabi Birchwood http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=962


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)




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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The birchwod is a good effort for a mass-marketer like Zwillings, I don't know of anything Shun that compares.  I've seen the 8" on Amazon for $160 but, comparing knives of SG2/R2, $175 buys you the Takamura Migaki 210.

If you could get the 240 Burchwood for $180, like the KKF dude, that sound like it would be a decent deal.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The fit and finish is nice and if you're in the market for SG2 or R2 powder steels they all cost a lot anyway


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Yeah, but the C&M price on the 9 inch was like $300 :/ Feelsbadman. I'd probably bite on the Shiro Kamo R2 if I was going bling-y R2, knives and stones has it for like $240


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Thanks for the info and discussion...so going to open another can of worms with this one...if I have to take care of the Itinomonn stainless clad high carbon steel the same as I would a carbon steel knife, why not just get a high carbon steel knife?

Which of course opens a whole nother can of worms...which high carbon steel knife should I get?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

For a 240 that I'd be using on the board, after playing with Millions Itonomon that would be my pick here, the Kamo for the bling, and the slightly better food release it might represent for the extra girth, if that mattered.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Stanless clad means only like a cm at the edge is reactive.  On the semi stainless one it's less reactive than full on carbon, but still pretty easy to sharpen.  It will patina but not rust as fast.

You *should* take care of all your knives, even stainless.  Nothing is stainless only more stain resistant.  Leave it wet overnight, soak it in vinegar, etc and you can make it rust.   Cut, wash, dry.  Every time.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Well, for our regular knives, I'm not the only one who uses them and not everyone respects equipment the same. For the knife I'm looking to buy, I'd be the only one using it so could take better care of it.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Only having to worry about the reactivity of like the last 20% or less of the knife can help a bit. Like stray water specks from spray if you prep close to the sink or miss a small spot wiping...they are more likely than not to land on a stainless portion of the knife  but overall Millions is right about blade maintenance habits. And personally, I don't like water droplets or streaking on any of my knives.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

20160208_171602.jpg




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foody518


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Sep 21, 2016







270mm Itinomonn Kasumi with burnt chestnut handle. This year I have been preferring a lot more of this style or even more rustic versus overt bling, in fact, there's very few Damascus knives that are on my want to buy list.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The magic





  








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foody518


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Sep 22, 2016


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## wens (Feb 9, 2014)

foody518 said:


> 20160208_171602.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what's the knife in the background?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

@wens It's my beater/project knife I play with my stones on - Yamashin 240mm gyuto. So many dozens of hours of work into that poor knife...


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Yeah, I don't give a rats patootie about damascus or whatever. If someone could make an awesome stamped knife for $50 that beat the pants off of just about any hand forged knife at even 10 times the price, I'd buy it. Bling is for people who have to have matching everything in their block, which as I've learned is a huge waste of money.

For me, it's all about comfort and how well the darn thing cuts.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@foody518 I went with the Rika 5k since the other 6k we were talking about is out of stock.

I'll order the Itinomonn in a few weeks.

Thanks for your help.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

DevOpsProDude said:


> @foody518 I went with the Rika 5k since the other 6k we were talking about is out of stock.
> 
> I'll order the Itinomonn in a few weeks.
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Hope you enjoy the heck out of it!

Did you get a medium grit stone as well?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/88514/itinomonn-sale/30#post_528270 commentary on how the edge on the Itinomonn will likely come in - microbevel is your friend


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@foody518 Yeah, the Bester 1200, just as you recommended.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Awesome, hopefully (at least) one of your current knives is a candidate to start practicing sharpening on!


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

@foody518 Yeah, I have a forged knife from IKEA (where else can you get a forged knife for $10?) and a Calphalon carving knife I can practice on.

Also just bought the Itinomonn V2 270mm gyuto, so thanks for that. I guess since I live in Oregon, I didn't need to pay the VAT. Ended up being $231.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

DevOpsProDude said:


> @foody518 Yeah, I have a forged knife from IKEA (where else can you get a forged knife for $10?) and a Calphalon carving knife I can practice on.
> 
> Also just bought the Itinomonn V2 270mm gyuto, so thanks for that. I guess since I live in Oregon, I didn't need to pay the VAT. Ended up being $231.


Cool, and I think it might eventually be worth going back to the Shun and possibly solving your drifting/steering problem on that too. First knives I practiced on were I think a Cutco and a 'Calphalon Pro Forged', or whatever (that I promptly gifted out after it had a proper edge).

Did you get a 400-500 grit stone as well? I think the general advice is to stick to a medium grit stone for learning, but personally I go back and forth on that. On some thicker stainless and existing knives with some use/abuse the coarse makes things go faster. Just reapply marker/sharpie *frequently* so you're providing constant visual reinforcement of what you're doing and feel the edge for burr carefully, which helps build correct muscle memory of your sharpening motion (and not an hour of what the heck am I doing, learn from my pitfalls XD)

We don't pay VAT on European products


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Lucky b*******!
> 
> Yes, the steering and wedging should be addressed. When the blade has got fat behind the edge, wedging may occur. But the tendency to steer as well becomes much more evident than before.
> Please be aware that steering may be compensated somewhat by the user. To a certain degree it is an individual question.
> ...


@DevOpsProDude So something you could try in the case of your existing Shun - as Benuser says, thin both sides first. Then, carefully try to cut as vertical/perpendicular to your board as you can, and then observe for which way the knife drifts/steers (into the food or away from the food). If for example you're a righty and the knife digs further into the bulk of the onion while you're trying to cut straight up and down, then consider playing with the bevels so that the left bevel (left when your knife edge is directed at the board vs in the air) is at a more obtuse angle than the right while the edge is still fairly centered within the knife (probably not appropriate to skew your cutting edge extremely towards the left or the right face), 'encouraging' the knife to not turn that direction.


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

By the way, did I mention that the steering issue only happens with onions?

To be honest, we just got them sharpened by Kai and I haven't tried cutting much since, so I probably should.

--Alex


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

DevOpsProDude said:


> By the way, did I mention that the steering issue only happens with onions?
> 
> To be honest, we just got them sharpened by Kai and I haven't tried cutting much since, so I probably should.
> 
> --Alex


It tends to occur more commonly cutting through harder, denser foods and/or through the bulk of the food (bisect, as opposed to cutting slices). Where you have a lot of resistance from the food and friction of increased blade area in contact with it.

Hoping that with some good sharpening practice that in not too long you'll get to the point where you'll blow that free Kai sharpening out of the water ))


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## devopsprodude (Sep 12, 2016)

Got the new knife and wow is it totally amazeballs. Cuts like a dream. It is as far away from the Shuns as the Shuns are from the Wusthofs.

Only complaint is that the handle is raw wood, but I treated it with mineral oil and it feels a lot better...nice D shaped handle too.

But yeah, boy does it cut.

Now I'm looking at a coarse stone to get for changing bevels, and maybe something for flattening stones.

Does anyone use slurry stones?

Thanks much @foody518 !


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The edge is so thin on a new knife changing bevels you can do on 1000 grit no problem. You only need coarse for thinning and serious repairs like big chips


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Ah didn't read all your posts. For the shun the work would go way faster. Also congrats on the new knife. That first cutting experience is what it's all about! You're in a different world now


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

"It is as far away from the Shuns as the Shuns are from the Wusthofs."  Now you know first hand why we don't recommend Shun, welcome to the club.

For the stones that you have there is no need for a slurry stone as they slurry up easy enough.  They do get used a lot on Japanese naturals, mostly for modifying their properties to acquire certain aesthetic finishes, and the harder stones to start a slurry, and some of the finer synthetic stones in the 10K+ range (mostly I think because they clog).


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

MillionsKnives said:


> Ah didn't read all your posts. For the shun the work would go way faster. Also congrats on the new knife. That first cutting experience is what it's all about! You're in a different world now


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Congrats - the Itinomonn V2 is my current favorite gyuto - it cuts better than some of the custom maker ones I used to own.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Millions was, of course, referring to using the extra course stone to speed thinning the heavy edge of the shun, which would take forever with and dish the hell out of a medium stone.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

DevOpsProDude said:


> Got the new knife and wow is it totally amazeballs. Cuts like a dream. It is as far away from the Shuns as the Shuns are from the Wusthofs.
> 
> Only complaint is that the handle is raw wood, but I treated it with mineral oil and it feels a lot better...nice D shaped handle too.
> 
> ...


Nice!

Yeah keep oiling it when needed. Helps a bit with stain resistance too

You can look at roughly the 400-500 grit for light to moderate reshaping and quick bevel set. Flattening solution choices are largely a factor of how much you want to spend on them.

Neither the Bester 1200 nor the Rika 5k should need a slurry stone when adequately soaked (that is, not using them after a too-short soak in which it's drying up on you frequently during use). They are pretty good about shedding abrasive and generating some mud.

Honestly thanks goes to Millions for spreading the Itinomonn love XD


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