# Crime and Gun Ownership



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Just the other day in California a perpetrator who abducted and raped two young girls was shot and killed by deputies. That exact area where he was killed was my old party spot, not far from home. The desert harbors alot of lowlife; it's a cheap place to live and easy to find hideouts from the law. Whenever I go hiking in that area I am fully armed; I hope that you anit-gun types understand, now. The wild west is still alive and well. As long as the revolving door justice system exists, I'll fight to the death for personal firearms ownership. NRA forever!!!


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

John Lott arrived at the same conclusion in More Guns, Less Crime

Phil


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Well it does say "Non-related Food Forums" so I guess this qualifies


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

kokopuffs , I agree . I have been personally touched by violent crimes of murder and I think back , if only they were prepared and understood the nature of the violent human . In my state you can get a concieled weapons permit for $300 bucks . A gun is a tool which is used only when needed , but when it is needed it can save your life . Without , you can just be another statistic .
Especially women , they are the prey of choice for the sick person who want to use you and take your lives to cover there cowardice actions . Fight back , this is what America is all about ,
standing up and being free , dont let anyone take your freedom or life from you . My very first ever love was murdered by the hillside stranglers in 1977 and I can still feel the pain . I have been touched by much more in my life also by these crimes but I have children and oh the thought of them being harmed by these bad people , well , just fight back . Good must overcome evil by whatever means . I say go to the wild wild west .
Peace to all , Douglas ..................................................


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

At one point in my 30's I got into guns bigtime..handloading, competition shooting, all of it. I had 18 handguns and several rifles. Then Stockton happened and I was appalled at the NRA's reaction to it. I got very disenchanted with the gun lobby and gun owners in the club I belonged to. There was an article in a hunting magazine that had an elegaic picture of a guy with a grizzly bear's head on his backpack, silhouetted against the setting sun in some idyllic mountain retreat. I was so offended that this guy thought he had the right to terminate that bear's life that I wrote a story mimicking the style of things you see in hunting and shooting magazines, but instead of big game, I was shooting dogs around the neighborhood. Stuff like.."The .25 caliber popgun is ok for the occasional Pekingese encountered in the apartment hallway, but to stand and flatten a charging Doberman with a handgun is man's work." I pinned it on the bulletin board, and someone scribbled on it, much to my gratification, "The person who wrote this shouldn't be allowed to own a gun!" No imagination whatsoever. I got rid of almost all the guns, except a shotgun, a single shot .22 and a revolver, all of which I grew up with. I'm conflicted about gun ownership. Not many people, I think, are competent to defend themselves even in their own houses, in the dark, butt naked or in their pajamas, ready to wet themselves with fear. But on the other hand, what are we supposed to do? Just take it? That's no option either. And that's coming from someone who knows what it's like to have a knife held to your throat in your own bed.


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## bdwillms (Feb 26, 2001)

Who do you think will replace Charles Heston.Now that he ,by his own admission has Altimiers desease?How about Clint Eastwood .


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## pollyg (Mar 12, 2001)

Firstly, does it not sound a little ironic that you are wishing us all peace after advocating fighting?
I really hope that America is about more than that.
I don't think that you will ever be free fighting violence with violence; the fact that evil exists in our world is no reason to partake of it.
Do unto others as you would have then do unto you.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Like I've said elsewhere, as long as the revolving door justice system is active that allows Charlie Manson to have bi-annual parole hearings, I'll own a firearm or two. I do, however, share many of the same sentiments as BigHat. A big game hunter I'm not; it's not my nature. I'm a bird hunter.

Might I also mention that the perpetrator, the original subject of this thread, worked in my home town and those I know very well had nothing good to say about him. Too close for comfort. Praise the lord but pass me more ammunition, please. Tanks!


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

There is no moral equivalence between self defense and assaulting an innocent person. 

And it would be quite moral and ethical to use the golden rule as you state. The perpetrator chose to use violence, so you answered with violence. The capability of self defense is not a violent or evil step in and of itself and justifies no violence or evil against you.

Phil


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## pollyg (Mar 12, 2001)

It is an interesting point that the 'capability of self defence' is not bad in and of it's self. I can see that you could extend the argument to 'I am capable of hitting someone with my arm, but i'm not going to get rid of my arm because I haven't done anything bad with it yet'.
On a different note, I think you have mis-understood the 'golden rule' as you call it. To do unto others as you would have them do unto you, does not mean to do to others what they have done to you, but rather, to treat people they way you would like to be treated.

It makes me terribly sad that such horrendous things happen in the world.
It makes me terribly sad that so many people live in countries where the violence is bad enough to make them want to have guns.

It is a philosophical difference that we have and I don't want to discount the incredible anger we can feel for someone who has hurt a loved one 
(in fact, it is this very understandable and human response that makes taking the peaceful route in life quite difficult)
but I feel that it's important to _try_ to side with Schwietzer and Ghandi wherever possible.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

I side with peace always . But I will not condone bad actions in my presence . I have been a student of the martial arts for many years and the words martial arts mean warlike ways . War and Peace are two opposite ends of the pendulum swing . When one nation wants war the other wants peace . Later the other wants war and the other wants peace . A horrible unending cycle of violence that can continue for thousands of years .
On the local level you can always count on there being good and bad people . The good normally outnumber the bad by a vast majority but how many of the good are realy ready to stand up to the bad . When someone bad decides to act out there desires it happens in a split second . If you are there trust me , you are caught so off guard . My message to you is not one of violence but one of being prepared . Dont walk around paranoid , but dont walk around with blinders on also . 
In the martial arts we learn the way of the warrior not to fight wars but to defend peace from those who would abuse us , our friends or our family . For some the warriors path is physically to hard and maybe there path is a weapon of self defense . Mace has been a real big seller and so have firearms . 
I do not condone anything but the right to defend ourselves and our freedom from bad people . 
So many people think that freedom is free but remember how many have died defending our way of life . Should we give up the fight here at home and let the bad be bad . Police are there to catch the criminal after the crime , we are there to stop it , now , when it happens . 
Well my 2 cents , Peace to all , Douglas................................


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

"Good must overcome evil by whatever means"

Huh? 

Martial arts is a Western term for fighting styles generally of the far east. It does not mean "war-like ways". Judo, for instance, translates to "the gentle way". 

BTW, anybody remember Gandhi? That man was a true warrior.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

SOME PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN CHARLIE MANSON AND HIS EDICTS. Yes, I am shouting.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The Julia Child appearance thread reminded me. She is a member of the Handgun Control Inc's national committee.

Phil


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

OK , one last post ( I Hope ) . Ill keep it simple . I work with a mostly Mexican staff and I love them . Since the males know of my love of martial arts they invited me to there form of the arts .
Mexican Judo they call it . Picture Cheeches voice when you read this ( From Cheech and Chong ) . Mexican Judo as described by my workers is " Yeah , Judont Know if I got a gun , and Judont Know if I have a knife " 
Trying to inject a little humor , but I still say be prepared .
Peace and love to all , Doug....................................


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

LOL, Chefboy! Mexican judo, indeed!


I, too, am a martial artist, and practitioner of Aikido for 20 years. Japanese martial arts, and many Chinese arts, were developed by farmers who were not permitted to carry weapons, or by monks whose beliefs did not allow them to carry weapons, but needed to defend themselves against raiders. They were all developed as means of self-defense, and some developed into rather brutal hand-to-hand combat techniques. 

Ju-do, or gentle way, developed from jiujitsu, and aiki-jitsu, which are both rather violent, bone cracking methods. Aikido also developed from aiki-jitsu, judo, and is called the 'Way of Harmony'. The philosophy is not to disturb the 'ki' (Japanese word for 'chi', or 'life force'), but rather to blend with it. If someone is disturbing the 'ki', rather than meet blunt force with blunt force, we are taught to 'blend' with the attacker's ki, and show him gently but forcefully to the ground! Ex - I'm a small woman; if a guy throws a punch at me, I'm not strong enough to block that punch; but I can blend with the punch, and use the energy the attacker 'gives' me to apply a throw or joint lock that will land him on his hiney.

Having participated and taught numerous self-defense classes, my response to the personal handgun issue is this; a) you have to be an expert to be able to draw your weapon instantly, in an attack situation; if you're not, you only risk the attacker taking the gun and using it on you. Think about it - where are you going to keep the gun - in your purse or briefcase when you're out; in your dresser drawer at home? If someone bursts into your kitchen, are you going to say, 'excuse me just one moment while I run to the bedroom'? Same with a knife. b) If you own a gun, are you committed to using it? I've had police officers who handle guns every day of their lives tell me that even when they draw down on someone, they get scared thinking they may injure or kill someone. If you own a gun, be committed to using it.

I feel so strongly that everyone should take a good self-defense class, and learn what they can do with their bare hands in an attack situation. Learn what you can do with your car keys as a weapon; something you already have out in your hand. 

"Guns don't kill people - people kill people" - an old saying, but true.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Marm:

You're right. While out in the desert hiking alone and hearing a vehicle approaching, the pit in my stomach is all consuming. While chambering a round I always chant the mantra, "Finger off of the trigger, finger off of the trigger." Again, it's me versus some unknown entity in solitude. 

Realize all of those in prison for killing (not murdering) someone because "the gun went off". Yeah, while THEIR finger was on the trigger.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

It is a scary thought that people may be putting a bead on me just because they hear me driving up the road! Yikes!!!!! I go out in the sticks all the time armed with maybe a shovel and an ominous-looking rock hammer.....And I haven't yet had the need to chuck that at anybody......


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Peach:

I said nothing about aiming the firearm at anyone; I merely described what goes thru my mind while chambering a round - prior to holstering the firearm. Just in case. Like I've said, I'm from the desert and am often 10 miles from the highway and the nearest person. If you haven't hiked in the desert, then you know nothing of what it's can be like out here.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Ahhh, Peach, but ya never really know, do ya? Especially in these crazy times right now. 

Hate to keep cramming martial arts down everyone's throat, but one of the things we learn is awareness - not paranoia that keeps us on a hypervigilant state - but awareness of our surroundings, of who's around us, of what 'feels' normal and what's out of place. We call it 'soft eyes', the sense of not focusing on one thing in particular, but taking in every thing around us. 

An example might be driving down a country road in deer country at dawn or dusk, when the deer are most likely to be on the move. Instead of just focusing on the road ahead, broaden your focus or use 'soft eyes' to expand your field of vision to the surrounding road shoulder, or edge of the road.

There was a study I remember, where they interviewed muggers and purse snatchers in jail, and asked them who were the most likely targets. Their replies were the people who acted timid while walking (head down, shoulders hunched), or the people who were just not aware of their surroundings (gabbing on cell phones, hustling toddlers, carrying groceries, etc.)

The lesson - be alert, and aware of your surroundings, no matter where you are.

After all, Peach, it may not be a psycho in an SUV bearing down on you, but how about that rattler in the tumbleweeds?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Marm and Peach:

Alright, I'll go over it again. One more time. During a Sunday evening one of my former patients who is a reserve deputy sheriff was driving his dune buggy in a desert canyon, 10 miles from town. As the vehicle traveled along the dirt road four people appeared out of nowhere. One of them who was carrying a shotgun fired a blast into the hood of the vehicle while saying, "Give us your money." He drew his weapon and promply dispatched the perpetrator. The other three went to prison for some time.

Had the deputy not been armed...

Wearing a gunbelt as I do in the desert is not a threatening gesture, especially to those who know the culture out here. That big black military belt commands some respect and consideration.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Koko - Sigh - wish we were on the phone, not on line!

I wasn't dissing your right to carry or the decisions that were made in the situation you spoke of. I speak of the general population when I say that there aren't many who would be able to draw down on someone even if they had a gun.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Carrying a firearm is a humongous responsibility that is definitely NOT for everyone. When carrying mine it's loaded - a full clip is inserted - without a round being chambered. Needing to chamber a round really turns on the adrenaline and fright.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Carrying a gun requires much thought as has been pointed out. 

First, you have chosen the most deadly force commonly available to the public. You are choosing to use defensively a killing tool. Are you ready to take a life in self defense? If not, guns are not for you. 

Also, you can't just pull a gun for defense. The laws in self defense indicate that you can only match force (comparatively and subjectively, I know). A woman throws a kick at a large man, the man can't pull a gun a kill her. The force differential was already in favor of the man, generally.

Guns are no substitute for vigilance and awareness. Anyone who thinks so is dangerous and fooling themselves. 

On the other martial arts are not totally perfect either. Skill of assailant, quality of the training all matter. Again, mindset to do what it takes to defend yourself is paramount. If you lack the mindset to cause an attacker harm, no martial art is going to help you defend yourself.

Similarly, martial arts require practise and expertise, just as has been pointed out for guns. It seems ludicrous to espouse only one type of self defense. All defense skills are valuable and should be practiced frequently. Any situation can be contrived to show either's preference. 

Remember martial arts developed because the ruling class forbade the commoners weapons. It's not that martial arts are better than weapons but better than nothing. Weapons, too, require skill and consideration in their use.

Phil


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

As a former Green Beret once advised and I paraphrase. Go ahead and learn a martial art. It's great and useful. But it is no match for a firearm. If your opponent draws a firearm, then turn and run away. 

Spatial awareness and zone of safety/awareness is great yet you must always assume that in the desert everyone is packing a firearm for defense.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

Growing up in Idaho and Montana I am well versed and experienced in running around in the woods. And I have been a desert rat for a few years in there too. And I used to live more than 5 miles outside of town on a lonely dirt road for many years, and lived 45 miles outside of the nearest town for 6 years, seen just about every type of large carnivorous mammal that you can see in N. America(including a wolverine) and have never owned or carried anything more lethel than a pocket knife. I get out all the time. And my advice? DON'T GO OUT THERE ALONE! Really you have a better chance of being hurt or stranded out in the middle of nowhere than you ever have of being assaulted. I have had to walk out many hours because my rig got stuck wayyyyy the heck out there and that IS a real possibility. I can't tell you how many people I have seen have to resort to heroic measures to make up for their own stupidity. Myself included. Rattlers? No biggie. I'm more afraid of encountering a grizzly in Glacier than of hoodlums, snakes, or anything else. And I think a handgun would just p*ss off a grizzly. And they don't allow firearms in national parks anyway.

The biggest danger in the woods? HYPOTHERMIA! NOW THERE IS A KILLER!


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

I have spent much time in the desert as my hobbies include geology , archeology , history , and mineral prospecting . Never and I mean never do myself or my family venture out into these areas without firearms . We always have a firearm in the vehicle as well for many of our roads are out in the middle of no where .
In all of the times in my life I have only pulled my firearm once and fortunatly I did not have to fire it . But if I did not have it I may very well not be writing this now .Would I have used it ? Most definately , never pull a weapon unless you can , never carry and own one unless you can . This is a big responsibility of gun ownership but to me so is having a drivers liscense . you may own a weapon your whole life and never have to call on it ( may this be the case ) but if you do then do it . Good people need to be able to stand up to the bad . I like good people with the ability to stand up to the bad . They make this world a safer and better place to live in now . Yeah I know I watched to many episodes of the Lone Ranger as a child but all I can say is Hi Yoooo Silver .................... Douglas.........


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Funny , I was having the same discussion with someone experiencedin Martial Arts.

I think you have figured out until now that I am not the most peacefull personality on earth.
I never miss a good opportunity for a nice fight and I think that old Greek Proverbd " She cannot stand even a fly on her sword" was written for me.

But I will put it simply.

I despise guns. Those defending methods belong to Paleolithic people.
You cannot talk about the delicate French cuisine, the refined wines, you cannot be a gourmet and carry a gun the same time.
You just can't.
You see, I cannot accept the fact that after consuming thousands of book pages I will go for a walk carrying a gun...

If people scared me so much,I'd stay locked in my house and certainly I wouldn't be involved in the restaurant business


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

A:

You're not from the western desert so you don't know how it is out here: lots of paleolithic ex-convicts running around trying to ruin us good folks. Law enforcement can't be everywhere.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Koko, Would you really turn your back on someone with a gun and run? And a Green Beret told you this? My sensei trained Green Berets in Viet Nam, and it sure didn't come from him!

Peach - I have no doubt that if you waved your arms and yelled, 'hey, bear, get outta here', that ol' grizzlie would just turn tail!

My take on the bottom line here - If you want to own a gun, fine; this is America. Just realize the responsibility that comes with the gun; and realize that you can't use the gun as merely a threat; you have to be prepared to face the consequences of firing the gun. And you have to train - just as in the martial arts - constantly, because firing a gun requires training.

If you can't live up to all those responsibilities, don't own one; then it just becomes an added danger.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Judo is no match for a firearm that has a range way beyond 2 meters. Firearms are like telephones, they reach out and touch others, sometimes from a distance of a mile or more - no match for just a pair of hands.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

A: I can see the emotional connections. But not logic in your statement.

Phil


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Kokopuffs I know whatyou mean by saying " You don't live here to know how things are"
True.
United States have one of the best, maybe THE best legal system in the world.
What makes this system the best in not the corpus of laws but the fact that courts actually function if a criminal is arrested.

When I read that educated americans think that they must carry guns, I must tell you that I am shocked.

For example you, kokopuffs you are a man that loves life. You exercise, you cook, you study, you read books you love the other sex, you have humour. I cannot picture you with fire machine gun!!

And ok, let's say that you carry this thing with you. What if someone attacks you? What will you do? Will you fire at him?

If yes, how will you live with this afterwards? Murder is the biggest crime of all even if you are in defense. You will see all the nice things you aknowledge in life, like philosophy, poetry,litterature,to evaporate in front of your eyes the moment you will pull this trigger.

If I had a child and I was a neighbour of yours, in your country, not here in Greece, I would like that you took it with you during those walks on the mountains in order that you showed things to him or her.
Greeks do not trust their children to others easily, you know.

I'd feel that my child would be safer if you DIDN'T carry this gun.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

First of all I don't own a machine gun. I carry a handgun while in the desert. Children out there are acculterated to handgun carry. We're talking 10 miles from the nearest road.

The courts here work fine; the prison system doesn't, however. Big difference there.

Also, Americans need to carry firearms. It's more than a need with our revolving door prison system. We're talking the desert and not NYC.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Why not? You walk around all day with whackos who carry guns. They live next door, down the street, some of them will want to rob you, some want to shoot up a Jewish Synagogue, some want to take your car, some of them are just plain psycho. Are you going to just sit there and do nothing?

Many business owners I know carry guns and know how to use them. Most criminals are pretty chicken. One time a guy pulled a gun on us at the Domino's where I used to work and the owner calmly told us to go in the back. Meanwhile, the manager pulled out a thirty-odd-six and aimed it at his head while the owner called the cops.

Kuan


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

A:

Killing in self defense is not murder. And since I've spent a year in class dissecting human cadavers, not a problem. Buns never looked the same after that class.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Ok Kokopuffs I think you understood what I want to say.

These things are not for normal people like us that make bread and love tall representatives of the other sex 
Let the guns to "cowboys"


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I consider myself more than a cowboy; I'm the sex messiah!


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