# Creativity



## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

Hey everyone,

I have a serious question and I would really like to get as much input as possible. 

I'm a hard worker. I'm ambitious. I'm smart, I'm organized, and an extremely fast learner. I became a chef (kitchen manager) at 22 (25 now), surrounded by 30-50 year old men at chef meetings. I do well enough.

But...I don't feel that I have any creativity. Ideas don't just pop into my head. I don't experiment. If I work at a place where I need to make specials, I usually put it off until the last minute, then look at a few other restaurants' menus and use that as inspiration. Usually, if I just look at the title of the dish I can come up with something similar, or look up a recipe as a last resort just to get an idea.. I don't know if that's normal, or it sounds terrible.

If I see something, or I made it at some restaurant, I can draw from that. I know plenty of techniques and have a good palate. In any case, there have never been complaints about specials I've made, and I've gotten compliments from customers and waitstaff.

But it just feels like a chore to me. It doesn't make any sense. If I'm deep cleaning the cooler, I'm happy. If I'm organizing an order guide, I'm happy. If I'm polishing equipment, I'm happy. If I make a big prep list and finish it all, I'm happy. All I see all over this website is that you have to have the passion and the drive to work in the restaurant industry. 

Well, I like my job - but I don't feel fulfilled. And as much as I try to do things to make being "culinarily" creative fun for me, such as blogging all my specials or taking pictures of them, it just never feels like passion. I have a drive to work. But I don't have a drive to push boundaries, to have new ideas, I just don't. I do love cooking for friends or making family style meals for my cooks, because I like to see people I care about like the food I make.

I don't know if I'll ever fit in. I don't know if I'll ever "care" the way I'm supposed to. I just have a constant itch that I'm in the wrong place or industry, without an inkling of what else to do or how else to make money. I feel like I'd have more fun and be happier jumping from restaurant to restaurant around the country or world, learning new things left and right and not having the responsibility of being boss, leader, manager. Does anyone actually do that? I've been stable my entire life, keeping jobs for a long time and only moving up and making more. Would it be hard to go back? Would that even fix the problem? I was so burnt out at my last job, I had to quit without a prospect, something I never did before. (Got another job right away, but it was still a huge deal to me)

Are there other chefs out there who feel the same way at all? My life and my time are important and precious to me...so much more precious than money and materials.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

This is a complicated question!  Chef is one of the few pretty decent paying jobs you can get by accident.  Much like you I got my first Exec job pretty young based more on my work ethic, responsibility, drive and speed on the line than my creativity (and frankly they needed a chef!).  I grew into the job and quickly realized I was very passionate about food and cooking.  Given the long hours, generally mediocre pay and shitty working conditions it's not a job you should be in if you don't love it.

Not everyone is "supposed to be" a chef.  I've worked with plenty of shoemaker chefs that really should be hanging drywall or selling insurance (actually, one of the worst of them did move into selling insurance).  Sometimes a person gets lucky and gets into a situation at just the right time and manages to parlay it into more than their talent really merits.  Other people have the drive and creativity but don't get the opportunity or don't know how to sell themself/seize the reins when presented.

You sound like you're still pretty young.  Maybe you shouldn't be a chef.  It pays more than Sous or line cook, but maybe you'd be happier taking a step back to sous. 

You're young enough to try something else, too.  If you don't have any big financial obligations that require the exec pay you're earning maybe it's time to start socking away a bit of cash, some "F U money" so to speak.  Try something else.  It may be you won't learn to leave the kitchen until you leave it for awhile.

Best of luck whatever you do.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

One more note- while the media loves the meme of the audacious young chef creativity is usually something you learn.  It usually comes from being mentored by someone that knows a lot more than you do.  Exec at 22 doesn't leave a lot of time to fill your mental library with ideas.  I was in the same boat at that age, having worked for few good chefs by that time.  You can bet that Grant Achatz didn't spring from the womb a Grant Achatz, nor did Thomas Keller, Wylie Dufresne, Marco Pierre-White, etc. They busted their asses under great chefs and developed the foundations they would later build successful careers on.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

Thanks a lot for your input. It's definitely my plan now to just save all my money and work for a bit so that I can be comfortable if my life takes a different turn. Or, should I be brave enough to force my life to take a different turn, since it definitely won't happen on it's own. I know that if I feel like this now, after only so many years in the kitchen, it's only going to get worse as life goes on. It's scary though. Terrifying, to have no clue.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

And I definitely agree with that. I haven't worked under any great chefs or in any great restaurants, and I've been taught very little outside of culinary school. I never had a mentor, and I've never worked in a place that truly cared about food and quality and creativity. Which is why the idea of jumping from restaurant to restaurant appeals to me, to trade my time for knowledge instead of money.

And I feel like I'm expected to know so much, and it's intimidating and can be embarrassing. I can look things up and get by, and I'll always admit if I don't know something because I'm always willing to learn, but I feel like I should know so much more.


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## stketcher (Feb 3, 2014)

madewithnotepad said:


> And I definitely agree with that. I haven't worked under any great chefs or in any great restaurants, and I've been taught very little outside of culinary school. I never had a mentor, and I've never worked in a place that truly cared about food and quality and creativity. Which is why the idea of jumping from restaurant to restaurant appeals to me, to trade my time for knowledge instead of money.
> 
> And I feel like I'm expected to know so much, and it's intimidating and can be embarrassing. I can look things up and get by, and I'll always admit if I don't know something because I'm always willing to learn, but I feel like I should know so much more.


Im currently on a similar situation. Im 22 now, five months ago I was a cashier at a supermarket then two months later started working has a dishwasher and in a little more than two monthsI find myself doing three days on the line ( entrees) and two has prep. Like you I look at all this big chefs (this is what got me into cooking) and admire their flavor combinations, plating techniques, creative output and passion they display wondering If ill ever get to that level (most of the time my mind says no!). Then comes all the "oh but their in a place that trully cares about products, quality, helping people flourish by sharing knowledge" thoughts on my head and I dont really know if they are excuses or what...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

In America we have this meme of "loving what you do" and it sometimes gets us into trouble.  Sure, some people are lucky enough to be able to 'monetize' (to use a buzzword de jour) their love but for the bulk of us work will just be a job.  Even if it's a career that's not a guarantee you'll love it.  I think 50 years ago our parents and grandparents felt lucky to have jobs and were grateful for work.  Work wasn't their life but something that made their lives possible.  A farmer was a farmer 24/7/365 but lots of jobs are just jobs.  It's a lot of ask of a job to provide everything you need in life- money, a purpose, a social life, self actualization - the whole works.  It seems like there should be a passion for life itself, not just a passion to work or do one thing.

All that said, if you're working just for a paycheck then for the most part cooking is a pretty harsh way to earn it. As you all know the kitchen is hot, the work is stressful and the hours tend to suck.  For a chef you're looking at a lot of hours and it's discouraging to divide your salary by those hours.  Many a chef earns less per hour than his cooks, maybe less than his dishwashers when he's really busy!

Lastly I think there's a big and very worthwhile zone between fast food jockey and Michelin starred chef.  Guys like Thomas Keller and Heston Bluementhal are kind of the Tom Brady's and LeBron James's of the cooking world.  But lots of people love football and basketball even though they'll never play at that level.  It's not like you have to reinvent food as we know it or admit you're a failure.  If you put out good food that makes people happy, that's huge.  There was a point maybe 12-13 years ago that I got burnt out of the hours and went to work briefly for a bank.  I was really miserable.  All I did was shuffle shit around, I didn't build anything.  I didn't make anyone happy or create a great memory for anyone.  Even the best line cook at Red Lobster makes people happy and helps make memorable birthdays, etc.  That drove me back to the kitchen.  Been there every since.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

It's also not impossible to get into these type of Michelin starred places. I would agree with phaedrus, it sounds like just a general lack of exposure to a wide variety of culinary styles, dishes, cooking techniques etc. has left you with very little in the way of to rely on when creating menu items from scratch. IMO you shouldn't have to look up recipes online. I'm not putting you down, I'm just saying, as the leader of a kitchen (and hopefully the person who dictates the menu) you should be able to come up with these things relatively easily. 

On passion... you may lose it from time to time. Or was there a time you were ever really passionate about cooking? To be punny, was there ever a time you were "hungry" as a cook... to learn more... to the point where you would hang around off shift to learn?? Do you/did you ever immerse yourself in the industry OUTSIDE of work (trade magazines, cook books, cooking books, skill development after school -- culinary arts is not nearly the end all be all of your training)... Do you have any interest in travelling abroad and learning about different cuisines/food scenes?

Like anything else cooking is a job and you can get burned out on it. Sometimes you need to take a step back. Maybe you've learned all you can where you live (this is unlikely, but it can often start to feel stale cooking in one place too long, I find). Maybe you need to get out in the world and see what's going on!


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Being creative is something you learn, and it gets easier the more you work at it. You might be beating yourself up for looking at other menues for inspiration, but that is a good way to start. No ideas just pop into your head fully formed. It sounds like your fundamentals and "can do" ability are right on. That is good. Coming up with things like solid specials are often an exercise in moving product you have to sell, start there, what do you need to move tonight? What would make that sexy toma customer? 

I have always felt one of the biggest obsticals to improving the over all quality of our industry is that we as cooks rarely have the chance to eat out and actually experience what our peers are doing. Its really hard to know what to cook if you can't get your own palate really refined. One assumes that writers are readers yet cooks rarely get a chance to enjoy the experience of dining out.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

Thanks for your input everyone. Yes, I do look towards work as if it should be passion, self-actualization, a purpose - it's definitely a big order. And when the restaurant is busy like crazy, I love it.

But the job I'm at now is slow and boring. I hate walking around looking for something to do. It's worse now that I'm the chef and I can't just sit there and deep clean all my equipment. I have to order other people to do it and help out a little, but if I just do it all...well, it can't work like that. 


> There was a point maybe 12-13 years ago that I got burnt out of the hours and went to work briefly for a bank. I was really miserable. All I did was shuffle shit around, I didn't build anything. I didn't make anyone happy or create a great memory for anyone


That almost happened to me this time around, but I took another kitchen job. I keep dreaming about doing some creative artistic things that I'm actually good at, like web design, but then I think about sitting in an office 8 hours a day, and I also think that would be hell. 


> IMO you shouldn't have to look up recipes online. I'm not putting you down, I'm just saying, as the leader of a kitchen (and hopefully the person who dictates the menu) you should be able to come up with these things relatively easily.


Is there that much of a difference between looking up recipes online and looking at a cookbook? Wouldn't it just be considered furthering our education? There's plenty of fundamental things I can do without a recipe, and I generally never look at the quantities in a recipe, but if it's something new I feel like I need to know what goes into it.


> On passion... you may lose it from time to time. Or was there a time you were ever really passionate about cooking? To be punny, was there ever a time you were "hungry" as a cook... to learn more... to the point where you would hang around off shift to learn?? Do you/did you ever immerse yourself in the industry OUTSIDE of work (trade magazines, cook books, cooking books, skill development after school -- culinary arts is not nearly the end all be all of your training)... Do you have any interest in travelling abroad and learning about different cuisines/food scenes?


Yes, yes and more yes...before I ever went to culinary school and had no idea what I was doing, I absolutely loved having friends over for parties and making all sorts of recipes. Then when I began my first job, it wasn't a creative place by any means, but it was busy as hell (did around $100,000 every Saturday) and after I finished all my banquets, I'd go on the line and start cooking until the chef would kick me out for being there too many hours. As far as travel, that is my EVERY interest - and the biggest pull to culinary arts for me. My dream in life is to travel the world; I work to do everything I can to become closer to that goal. At 25, I've paid off all my student loans, have no car loans or any debt and pay minimal rent. I feel like I'm just working right now so that I can do that - but I don't know how! EVERY restaurant I've worked at has just been American food, and it just drives me insane. Only during an internship in Italy and one at a fancy Mexican restaurant did I care about the food I was making. I love food from other cultures, I love learning new things. I just...don't know how to put it all together.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

I'm not necessarily saying its bad to look up a recipe, but the initial post made it seem like you would habitually be looking up recipes for the special you had to create. For me personally that suggests that you need more familiarity with ratios and just general cooking experience I guess really. I can't pinpoint the time when I stopped having trouble coming up with a dish or what triggered it. Do you memorize ratios and simple recipes? Soft/medium/hard boil egg, 3:2:1 ratio pie dough, basic pasta dough, roux, etc. As soon as you can really make a number of good basic component without looking at a book and are even casually watch some professional cooking media you should be brimming with creativity!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I will say that if you stick with it over time you'll build a "database" of recipes and ideas.  Once you have some experience under your belt seeing other recipes won't lead you to copy them- it will inspire you to combine it or use it as a jumping off point to another unrelated idea.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

I mean, that's what I do. I know plenty of techniques, I don't actually look up recipes with numbers and ratios really, just look at pictures or titles of other dishes and throw stuff together until it tastes good.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

If you don't already have it _The Flavor Bible_ is a great resource. Just looking at different things that compliment each other can give you some ideas.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

Has anyone read "Medium Raw" by Anthony Bourdain? I just started reading it and it explains everything - everything! He starts talking about how your first decisions out of culinary school determine everything. And it's so true. Once you work at the hotel, country club, corporation and have your benefits and reasonable hours and pay, it's nearly impossible to jump from line to line at really great restaurants for little to nothing for the learning experience. If I had worked some fancy Chicago restaurant instead of Dave & Buster's as a first job, would everything have been different? Almost certainly. It's just blew my mind to read what he was writing. I've never been able to relate to something so completely. (And Bourdain himself laments doing the same thing, which is why he feels he can never compare himself to his contemporaries).


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Bourdain is a great writer, and generally a seeminly awesome person. One celebrity chef I am not ashamed to be a total fanatic about. I don't necessarily believe things are so heavily determined by your initial employer. I know people who are shaving foie on top of fancy canapes right now who started out in QSR... and these people are Chef de Cuisine with bright futures. With the advent of the pop up restaurant and the number of exceptionally young chefs out there doing inventive takes on classical cooking using new gastronomic techniques I think it's perhaps alot easier to become "great" (relatively, I'm talking about having an ultimate goal of running a critically lauded high end restaurant kitchen, not being a TV celebrity) than ever before.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

madewithnotepad said:


> Has anyone read "Medium Raw" by Anthony Bourdain? I just started reading it and it explains everything - everything! He starts talking about how your first decisions out of culinary school determine everything. And it's so true. Once you work at the hotel, country club, corporation and have your benefits and reasonable hours and pay, it's nearly impossible to jump from line to line at really great restaurants for little to nothing for the learning experience. If I had worked some fancy Chicago restaurant instead of Dave & Buster's as a first job, would everything have been different? Almost certainly. It's just blew my mind to read what he was writing. I've never been able to relate to something so completely. (And Bourdain himself laments doing the same thing, which is why he feels he can never compare himself to his contemporaries).


Funny, I was going to bring that up but my post was already getting long winded. Yeah, I think he makes a great point. He stresses that while you should couch surf if necessary to work at great places he did not do that. Neither did I. I became a chef by accident. While I've made up some ground just due to decades of experience if I had known I'd be doing this for this long I'd have done it a a little differently. Still, you have the ability to make of yourself whatever you want. It will require extra work on your part on your own time and your own dime, but you can do it. Everything I know about _sous vide _for instance I learned on my own at home. Bought the equipment five years ago and just dove in headfirst. I bought some books and researched for a year before getting a circulator to make sure I didn't kill myself, though./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

I do get amazed by cooks and chefs that don't to R & D on their own time. If I hadn't spent the summer of my 19th year learning bbq on my own (and back then, on the east coast on Canada, let me tell you there were no out of the box solutions) I never would have landed my first high profile chef gig fifteen years later. Or at least I wouldn't have been good at it.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

Oh absolutely, absolutely - I will be the first person to say that everything is determined by your own personal motivation, not necessarily the factors in your life. But the way he put it, it made so much sense to me. I just hadn't considered it before. It actually makes me really happy and feel good about what I do when I read him, because his attitude is just like mine, and I know there are so many people out there like me or in a similar situation - I'm not alone.  I made Indian food for a group of friends for dinner two nights ago, and Middle Eastern food for a different group of friends last night. I absolutely love it - making quality food for people I care about and experimenting with new things. It's awesome, and I do love it. It's very different when it comes to work, but I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that you can't have too many goals at once, and you don't have to accomplish everything at once.  Currently, my passion is staying up all night singing, playing instruments and recording songs, and if I were to spend that time researching recipes I'd be a much more amazingly creative chef. However, it makes me happy and fills a certain creative void I have, and finding an outlet outside of the crazy hours and stress of the kitchen is important.


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## recky (Oct 15, 2012)

You're never going to believe it, but I became a chef and restaurant owner not by formal training, but by travelling the world and reading much of the cooking literature written in the past century. I spent 20 years reading and cooking for myself, friends and family (in fact, oftentimes just for myself to try things out), increasingly being asked to do catering jobs, before I became a restaurateur. I spent 20 years developing my palate, building a passion for food and cooking, and acquiring the knowledge to actually know what I'm talking about. I have since had trained (and talented) chefs working for me, networked with other chefs and restaurant owners and grown safe in the knowledge that I know more about food and cooking than many of my peers. I have also learned how to run a restaurant, but that's another story.

I'm still in awe about _great_ _trained_ chefs, because they have served time in all those great kitchens, but when it comes to running a restaurant and serving great food (rustic as it may be), there are few chefs that can hold a candle to what we do here. And I'm fucking proud of it! I still read cook books and have developed a "mental palate", i.e. I can tell from reading a recipe what it will taste like.

So, my advice to you is: READ!!!! You've worked in the industry for some time, make sure you read up on the basics, the classics, the seminal works. All you need to know to get creative is in there!

Cheers,

Recky


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## recky (Oct 15, 2012)

Recky said:


> I'm still in awe about _great_ _trained_ chefs, because they have served time in all those great kitchens, but when it comes to running a restaurant and serving great food (rustic as it may be), there are few chefs that can hold a candle to what we do here.


I have to quote myself here. What I wrote up there sounds very arrogant, and I didn't mean it quite like that. What I meant was that _in this particular region_ in which my restaurant is located there a few restaurant kitchens that can hold a candle to what we do. I am well aware of the fact that there are thousands of great and creative chefs out there, in this country and across the world. Many of them better than me in every respect.

Cheers,

Recky


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## tweakz (May 10, 2014)

I can understand this. I was exceptionally gifted at art, but I knew I lacked creativity in it. I could take the beauty I saw in something and focus on it and draw it out, but couldn't create beauty like others could.

Creativity goes so far. I wish I'd enjoyed art because it's one of the most profitable things I've done. I'd rather frequent a restaurant that has some consistency and quality standard vs one that's creative (maybe because I can re-create). 

Jon from JKI used to be a Chef and found his niche in knife imports, making great videos, and consulting. There's a lot of flexibility in this industry.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Who's definition of creativity does anyone use? "Creative" is an interesting word. A lot of things are defined from vast multiple points from where anyone stands and from what direction they are looking.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Good point, IceMan.  And what does it even mean?  What is there to cook that's completely new?  There are only so many edible foods and so many ways to combine them.  So many chefs think coming up with a novel random pairing of foods is somehow creative.  Is it?  And why would I want to eat it?  First and foremost a meal should taste good.  Who ever ate brats grilled over a campfire and lamented that it wasn't a creative dish?


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

I don't think we talking Picasso level creativity here, more like being able to come being able to come up with something on the fly. IE, setting a fish special, that will sell, in a half an hour before service sort of thing.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

AllanMcPherson said:


> I don't think we talking Picasso level creativity here, more like being able to come being able to come up with something on the fly. IE, setting a fish special, that will sell, in a half an hour before service sort of thing.


What about menu development? 90 percent of menus out there are seriously lacking in creativity... how many times have we eaten the same Reuben or BLT sandwich!  That's where some creativity is sorely needed.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

They follow each other, SB. But I was just literally turning back to the issue that the OP was talking about. I was a little concerned that creation and invention were getting conflated.


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## beastmasterflex (Aug 14, 2013)

Comes back to icemans point what's more creative fresh baked rye with house brined corned beef and sauerkraut or some sort of "unusual ingredient" thrown in. I think the "creativity" a lot of people refer to these days is just ego stroking. Give me a fresh baked sourdough with house dry cured bacon fresh mayonnaise, lettuce grown in the garden and heirloom tomatoes over something clever anyday.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

AllanMcPherson said:


> They follow each other, SB. But I was just literally turning back to the issue that the OP was talking about. I was a little concerned that creation and invention were getting conflated.


I sort of agree. You can develop flavor and a dish, but I don't think you can create it. Food is fairly new in this country. It has always been said that you can invent or create a dish but 9 out of 10 dishes have already been done somewhere if you search hard enough to find them. I think you can develop flavors but I think creativity would only come in when garnishing or enhancing. Just me


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Panini, agreed. I do a lot of things that people think are on the "out there" side of things but I would never say I have invented any dishes. I look at designing dishes as drawing connections that might be a little obscure, but are usually based on either classic dishes or flavour combinations.

There a couple of things I use fairly regularly posthat I am always surprised by how much positve reaction to. One is umeboshi. They remind me of olives, so I use them like olives. Prettty simple, but I always get good feedback on it.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK ... What is creative?

Here is the _French Laundry_ menu:
http://www.tkrg.org/upload/fl_menu.pdf
_LOL. You gotta pay $295 just to sit down._ Creative?

Now, picture Me, and a half-dozen homeless people, all sitting on stacks of milk-crates waiting for the _Food Pantry_ truck to show up. I don't really know what will be unloaded on this given day, but I do know that I've got to feed +/- 100 people with whatever comes off. Most of the time I'm working with


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## tweakz (May 10, 2014)

Speaking of going creative on Reubens; I decided to try the *name of restaurant* Reuben at a place. It had turkey, beef, and corned beef on it. I knew it wouldn't work, but I thought it would give me an idea of the quality and taste of the deli meats they had for future purchases. It didn't work at all. The meat was sliced too thin and the flavors mixed too well. They made the name of the place mean 'crap'. The place is closed now.

I didn't get into Chopped. Too much luck involved, and characters didn't stick around long enough for me to care about them.

I'm not so into complex flavors, but finding the best techniques for the best results (tweaks). I'm only occasionally creative. Techniques like the best way to cook hard cooked eggs, pasta, poached eggs (all similar -bring to simmer, cover, rest). The easy / fast way to make mayonnaise or hollandaise (immersion blender). I get people who thought they prefer rare steak at work to prefer medium by cooking it right. -My niche that makes me happy. I guess I take pride in simple things, but then I'm not surrounded by much competition in this area.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. I'm not necessarily claiming this to be correct ... but _I think,_ ... if you swap out the corned beef for turkey, it's a _"Russian Reuben"_, and _I'm pretty sure_ ... if you go with pastrami and cole slaw it's a _"Rachel"_. Still yet, if you wanna go off the tracks Bohemian, you can use BBQ-sauce, and call it a _"California Reuben"_.

For Me, the classic, don't mess w/ the standard recipes sammiches, are _(in no particular order) ... (drum roll please) ..._ the _Reuben_, the _Monte Cristo_ and the _Patty Melt_.

I said before that I can't stand _"CHOPPED"_, but you've gotta be rather well creative not to bomb out.

I make my restaurant lasagna using won-ton wrappers. I mix my meatball, meatloaf and other such meat dishes with a stand mixer using the bread hook. I make tiramisu using all kinds of funky stuff. I make pot-pies using whatever canned soup, processed meat and press-out dinner rolls that come off the truck. I get creative every day that I cook in a shelter. Over 70% of my private dinner clients are return diners. I've not however, written any original creative cook-books. As of yet though, I've had no complaints or casualties.

*edit:* NO, I'm not saying _"Look at me ... look how wonderful and creative I am. Yipieee!"_ NO. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I have very little creativity at all. I said before that I look at and read other recipes all the time. I just seem to get things done. Maybe, from the point where I stand ... who knows?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@IceMan

About the creativity of it all.....love your 'tude dude.....keep on keeping on!


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## tweakz (May 10, 2014)

Fablesable said:


> @IceMan
> 
> About the creativity of it all.....love your 'tude dude.....keep on keeping on!


I second that... love this guy's posts!


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Used to do a Reuben with some house made kimchi in there! That was pretty good. I'm not saying try to reinvent the wheel but as customer sometimes it's nice to see people try to do something "different".


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

* "NO, I'm not saying "Look at me ... look how wonderful and creative I am. Yipieee!" NO. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I have very little creativity at all. I said before that I look at and read other recipes all the time. I just seem to get things done. Maybe, from the point where I stand ... who knows?"*

Hey Iceman......anyone who can open a food pantry truck, look at what's inside and "CREATE" a menu, is, to me, creativity.....NO? YES?


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

My POV is Everything Under The Suns been done. Something like 15 billion meals are served each day. Ya gotta eat. Etc.

I had a Reuben at Reubens once, they closed down the next year their Union was asking for too much money. I think they are opened again? I hope so its a good sandwich.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

chefboyOG said:


> My POV is Everything Under The Suns been done. Something like 15 billion meals are served each day. Ya gotta eat. Etc.
> 
> I had a Reuben at Reubens once, they closed down the next year their Union was asking for too much money. I think they are opened again? I hope so its a good sandwich.


I think this is untrue, there is a lot that hasn't been done or seen widely. Especially when considering molecular gastronomy, and deconstructed dishes. They take some time to get into but once you have a basic understanding of the underlying dishes and have been exposed to enough of that type of cooking it can be very pleasing. It's also a lot more exciting than doing casual fare or even some upscale.


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## beastmasterflex (Aug 14, 2013)

I hate deconstructed dishes. Occasionally I'll make something into fine dining for a regular and we'll laugh about how people pay redidulous money for a third of a serving that someone played with in the kitchen.

To the OP being creative is hard, because it's work. Just like with cutting onions it's a lot harder till you've cut 10000 pounds of them then it seems a lot easier. Persevere.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

SpoiledBroth said:


> I think this is untrue, there is a lot that hasn't been done or seen widely. Especially when considering molecular gastronomy, and deconstructed dishes. They take some time to get into but once you have a basic understanding of the underlying dishes and have been exposed to enough of that type of cooking it can be very pleasing. It's also a lot more exciting than doing casual fare or even some upscale.


I don't think I will ever see a large following for molecular gastronomy in my lifetime. As far as deconstructing, disemboweling, discombobbulating someone else's dish, I don't think that is very creative at all. but that's just and old fart talking. And I truly believe it's all been done before. Did a lot of research back in the 70's, you'd be surprised what's been done, as far back as the Medici's.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

How many _"Guys"_, and I'm talking regular guys, not TV celebrity chefs with brutally over-priced chic places, actually *make a decent living* from serving molecular gastronomy and deconstructed anything?

If you want some serious _business and profit_ ... open a real good diner within a block of those places. That way, the disappointed people that have eaten there, dropped a disturbing amount of $$$ and are leaving still hungry can go to your place and eat _for real._


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Ice, that would be me.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Let tell you what is not creative, people confusing their personal experience for general experience.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

When I am interested in Molecular Gastronomy, ya know, eating bubbles. I go off the beat and path and stop at the Papusas truck.

Order a couple with queso freeco and some habanero slaw, a Atole de Mora Negra. I'm usually eating bubbles within the hour/img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Alan ... I'm curious which is _"You"_. The molecular gastronomy / deconstruction Guy or the Diner Guy?

_Believe it or not ... I'm not cracking wise this time. LOL._


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Panini, I really hope that you are just making a crack about cliches of modernist cooking, and not thinking that's a reality.


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## beastmasterflex (Aug 14, 2013)

IceMan said:


> Alan ... I'm curious which is _"You"_. The molecular gastronomy / deconstruction Guy or the Diner Guy?
> 
> _Believe it or not ... I'm not cracking wise this time. LOL._


Am I the diner guy? I do have a diner, and I'm a guy, and I did make a comment based on personal experience.

I wish that I could understand the general experience of humanity that Al seems to be in touch with.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@AllanMcPherson,

Just cracking, have actually been pretty interested in modernist cooking. Just don't tell SB/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Where does all this aversion to new technique and ingredient come from? It all has practical application and in the subject of 'creativity' it just opens the door to more possibilities. 

For example: iota carrageenan creates a thicker ice cream with a richer more luxurious mouth feel, as well as stretching product as a thickener. Xantham gum will bind just about any broken emulsification in like two seconds. Gelatin powder can make soufflés last two to three days before cooking without deflating. Another ice cream tip, if your maker goes down and you need some on the fly, throw dry ice in a robocoup till it's powder and slowly add it into anglaise in a mixer. Machine: 2 qt in 30-45 min., dry ice: 4qt in 5 min.

You're right by saying most people don't care about that stuff as a plating say 'bubbles' (which is a super easy, fun, flavorful, classy touch done by simply adding soy lecithin to most sauces and hitting with an immersion blender), but the people who do pay out the ear for something new, and 'creative'. 

Thomas Keller and Grant Achatz threw a dinner together for the release of sous vide and Alinea books and the cost was $5000 a seat. Over a hundred people bought into it. THAT'S $500,000!!!! So not everyone who does it is making money but those who do make bank.

Everyone is analyzing the word 'creative' like the op's post was some abstract philosophy but we all understood it to mean throwing some food together -whatever's in the walk-in- and making it taste and sound good. Something unusual maybe. It comes with time and experience like anything else.

Finally I keep reading "everything's been done" but in a sense it's as true for food as it is for everything. "There's nothing you can sing that can't be sung". But as far as I know Aztecs and Egyptians weren't making carrot raisins be it through dehydrating sphereified juice or any other technique known at any time just as I've never heard on ancient Greeks or Europeans terraforming islands like in Dubai with any construction experience just as Chinese surgeons weren't reconstructing organs with nano scaffolding or and other art. To think nothing new is ever possible is just limiting yourself.

To the op : you'll get it, just keep trying different things everyday. Start with a protein, something you need to push or have extra of. Then think of what grains/starches you have on hand and think which one would go best with said protein. Etc. try to hit flavor notes of sweet/savory/acid with balance and nice texture. I.e. Don't do purées with mash. Good luck.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Ice, right now I am making a decent living doing a lot of modernist stuff. I don't wear it on my sleeve, or push it in advertising or anything. It's just how I am cooking these days. Much of this is so far from new or buzz worthy at this point I don't really see why it would be a "camp" to join up with. 


Beast, you miss my point entirely. I don't claim to have to have any inside track to the human experience. I am just reacting (probably poorly) to what seems to people getting more and more entrenched in what they "know" to be right and have seemingly very little time or patience for anything outside of that. I know I am guilty of the same biases in many regards, but I do try to work past it. Anyway, it was a snarky post on my part, so a reply in kind is fair. 

Panini, I thought so! Just had to check, getting paranoid I my old age. ..


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Just because I think its been done doesn't mean I don't think its worth doing.

New ( to me) methods, ingredients are what makes the grind exciting.

And I sure am open to the concept that new things, ingredients, and methods are being created all the time.


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## beastmasterflex (Aug 14, 2013)

Delete


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Thomas Keller and Grant Achatz could put together a dinner of braised gym socs and fish bait and make a fortune from high-priced people dropping $5,000 a seat ... once. That is called a _"charity function_. Just because those two(2) guys can do it doesn't mean anyone else can do it. And those two(2) guys ain'te making their every-day living off of situations such as that. The vast majority of every-day people going out to eat don't do it like that. I think it's a sad sorry state for every poor dumb mook who believes that he can be Thomas Keller or Grant Achatz, going out killing themselves trying to do it.

A coupla sorry's go to you Allan ... the first for spelling your name wrong. I actually do have a bad _"L"_ key on my pad _(resulting from a bbq-sauce incident)_. Secondly, I really wasn't busting chops. I've just seen lots of _M-G / DeCon foods_ places burn out like road flares, with people going somewhere else after they leave.


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Oh it was no 'charity function' it was a special dinner featuring both chefs and restaurants to do press for their (at the time) new books coming out: sous vide and Alinea. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Totally for profit, not non profit. 

I've always been told assumptions are paramount to cardinal sin in this industry.

And by advocating 'molecular gastronomy' I didn't mean to put out a menu featuring entirely deconstructed fare, I simple meant don't write off new ideas and techniques.

Come at me bro


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

My point still stands ... It was a one(1) time shot. I'm sorry for my mistake. And it actually was a charity event ... for the _"Thomas Keller / Grant Achatz Benevolent Association Retirement Fund"_.

_That was a joke._​


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Lol, I didn't catch the little bottom blurb at first and I was all "no he didn't!"  

Glob I'm such a (explicit), but I just haaaave to add: it was three seperate dinners. One at per se, then Alinea, then F.L. 

All chest pounding aside, much respect chef.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Iceman, no need for apologies, I like your sense of humour and can feel it off of your posts. Especially with name spelling, between my first and last name can you Imagen the permutations of that I have seen? I gave up being sensitive about that in my early teens.

I bet you have seen a lot "running before they can walk" places collapse. Chicago, from the week I spent there, is one of the most vital food cities I have ever been to. The baseline is set really high from the low end to the high. 

I think one of the reasons that a lot molecular type places come off as precious and twee is that they fall in love with the technique and forget that, like any cooking, it's just a means to an end. And that is pleasing food.

This isn't just a problem with styled modernist places. BBQ blew up in my area about 5 years ago. I was in on the first place to do it. Many more opened in the first two years, but the spot I worked at is 5th only one of that wave still standing. The difference was that I, as a Chef, knew something about smoking, I had been doing it my backyard for fifteen years. And the, owner was obsessed, taking trips through Memphis every year for years. I joked that her garage could be a museum of smokers, she tested so , many options before settling on models ready for the restaurant. the followers you could tell just ordered the first Cookshacks they could get their hands on.

I have been "playing" with modernist methods for nearly ten years, on my own time, before I was comfortable with serving customers full on with many of these techniques. Sometimes it seems like cooks look at this food as "experimental" and wind up treating their customers as test subjects, and that's just not fair.

For the record, the reason I can make a living doing this, is that I have been operating a pop-up for the last year. It's a new menu every week, usually 6 courses, reservation only, one night only. And we are cheap, I don't think I have charged more than 80 bucks for a menu.

But my overhead is really low, just a production kitchen, and whatever rent for the venue. I have zero food waste. My whole model is based on getting customers food they can't at bricks and mortar places. So far, so good. I usually can have more cash in my pocket than I had as exec at the 200 cover a night high end steakhouse I was running before this.

Al (it's easier that way)


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think Allan hit the nail on the head; MG, modernist- whatever you like to call it- at the end of the day it's just cooking.  If it doesn't serve the food and taste good what's the point?  I'll take an old school burger fresh ground on fresh baked buns over modernist monstrosity with no culinary point.  It's easy to get infatuated with gadgets and techniques to the point where you lose sight of the reason you're doing it.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Burgers, man that is another great example of the same type of psychology, should have thought of that! We are about five years behind the curve in my area, so boutique burger places blew up like crazy here in the last few years. And, by and large, they aren't very good. At least no better than some of the pubs that have been quietly freshly grinding their own meat forever. What most of these places have done is gotten infatuated with toppings and cutesy names, which get served on over cooked, over worked patties.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

where are the heady descriptions of the dishes? specifically whats on the left?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK.

Vegetarian lasagna w/ some arugula on the side. 
Rare grilled burger w/ fried onion rings.

_It's just two(2) pics, posted for effect. I kinda thought that was all easily discernible enough. 
My apologies.​_


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## tweakz (May 10, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *IceMan*
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I honestly couldn't tell it was arugula on the side.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It's just two(2) pics posted for the effect of good looking food. To tell you the honest to goodness ... I don't have any clue what the salad vegetable is. It just looked a little funky to me so I called it arugula, since arugula is everyone's flavor of the month for the last year. It's after 1-am on a friday night. My specials tonight were _fried rice, shrimp/crab rangoon pot-stickers and mongolian beef._ All orders came w/ an almond cookie. I got a 50# box on sale for almost nothing.


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## madewithnotepad (Sep 10, 2014)

tweakz said:


> I can understand this. I was exceptionally gifted at art, but I knew I lacked creativity in it. I could take the beauty I saw in something and focus on it and draw it out, but couldn't create beauty like others could.
> 
> Creativity goes so far. I wish I'd enjoyed art because it's one of the most profitable things I've done. I'd rather frequent a restaurant that has some consistency and quality standard vs one that's creative (maybe because I can re-create).
> 
> Jon from JKI used to be a Chef and found his niche in knife imports, making great videos, and consulting. There's a lot of flexibility in this industry.


Interesting that you say that. I always felt the same as far as art goes. I grew up always being gifted at drawing, and people always said I was so creative because of it. In actuality, I wasn't a good "artist", I was a good illustrator. I never felt artistically creative the way people expected me to be. I guess it's the same thing in the kitchen - I can recreate things, and make versions of things that already exist, but I won't be the one coming up with new and creative amuse bouche for the French Laundry.



Recky said:


> You're never going to believe it, but I became a chef and restaurant owner not by formal training, but by travelling the world and reading much of the cooking literature written in the past century.
> 
> So, my advice to you is: READ!!!! You've worked in the industry for some time, make sure you read up on the basics, the classics, the seminal works. All you need to know to get creative is in there!


Well, that is good advice. Honestly, almost all that I've learned has either been from making food for friends and family at home, or watching other cooks make food for themselves. Which is why the one type of food I can honestly say I can get a little creative with and always make things off the top of my head is Mexican food - after working with hispanic cooks for so many years, I've built up a good knowledge of salsas and preparations (enchiladas, flautas, chalupas, tortas, tacos, etc.) to make. It's just the whole coming up with an entree on the fly that doesn't come so easily to me. I guess I just don't think much about food in my free time, or even at work when I'm doing other things. I'm starting to document all the specials I have used in an effort to not forget. 


> *beastmasterflex*
> 
> To the OP being creative is hard, because it's work. Just like with cutting onions it's a lot harder till you've cut 10000 pounds of them then it seems a lot easier. Persevere.


Thanks for all your earnest responses, everyone. It's not that I don't have cooking talent or I'm completely useless, I just feel like it probably comes a lot easier to other chefs. But then I remember that I never had a mentor and have never really worked in a great kitchen with excellent food, so it's pretty much all up to me and what I decide to read and learn in my spare time. It's easy to forget that we have to put extra work into work to get better.


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