# Another advice/info request thread



## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Not sure where to really begin here....but right off that bat, I'm not a professional cook/chef, nor do I have any intentions to become one. The reason I'm posting here is because I've spent the last two days sick on the couch and browsing the reviews here. I've read more useful answers here than on most other boards.

I do enjoy cooking when I do it, but to be quite honest, I don't cook many big meals, especially now cooking for one. And my knife skills in the kitchen are probably laughable by the standards around here, but I'm interested in learning now.

Anyway, I've always had a bit of an obsession with anything with an edge on it, and for a long time I've been wanting a decent set of kitchen knives for those times when I do need them. Specifically, I've been very interested in getting a set of Japanese knives. Heck, it might even encourage me to cook more if I'm not frustrated by cheap knives that won't stay sharp.

So, after reading enough reviews and opinions to make my head spin, I'm pretty sure that every knife I've looked at (drooled over) at this point is more knife than I *need* lol

But,there's needs, then there's wants, so.....

I'm thinking a compromise might be the Kagayaki Carbonext's or VG10's

Petty 125mm
Gyuto 210mm
Sujihiki 240mm
Boning 150mm (maybe. probably not. I probably don't really need this)
Here's my issues/questions though:

I have no idea if I should stick with the 210 Gyuto, or go with a larger size now? Is it really any easier to learn on a smaller knife and end up wanting to go bigger later? Or would I be just as well off learning with a 240?
I hear a lot of people say go bigger if you have a big enough cutting board for it. But....what size is 'big enough'?
I have some wood here and plans for making a 12"x18" endgrain board from maple and purpleheart. I'm guessing it's just if the blade is shorter than the width of the board, right?

I really do love the look of the Wa handled knives. I've never used one, but visually they appeal to me. I'm going to look around when I'm feeling better and see if I can find one local to get a feel for it....but in the mean time, are there any good Wa handled knives in this price range? It seems most that I've seen recommended are just more than I'm willing to spend
On a related note....and this is probably putting the cart before the horse....but, can anyone point me to a good walkthrough of how to re-handle a Wa handled knife? I've searched around and only come up with people showing what they've made, not much about how they actually go together.
I'd love to have something along the lines of a Wa handle in Red Mallee burl and black buffalo or ebony.....but they sure aren't going to be in my price range if they're like that from the factory lol

Ceramic Rod or touch up on a finishing stone?
I've read the warning about not using rods on certain japanese knives, because of the hardness of the steel and the likelihood of chipping....but I'm not sure on where that line is drawn? 
The Carbonext should be fine on a ceramic rod, right? But what about the VG10? Or a white steel? Or a...whatever? Is there some general rule of thumb by alloy or hardness?
As far as blade types go, I don't really care if it's carbon or stainless. I'm okay with either as long as it gets good and sharp and holds the edge decently.

edit: Also, I like the idea of thinner and lighter with the Japanese steels, but not super thin or excessively flexible. I do have a couple older, sturdy carbon knives that belonged to my mother that I can restore and use for heavier tasks

Speaking of edges, before anyone asks, here's what I currently have for sharpening options:

Razorsharp Edgemaking System (Abrasives on paper wheels on a grinder)
DMT 8c for flattening the stones and major edge repairs
Norton stones in 220, 1k, 4k, 8k
Chinese natural 12k
Welsh slates ranging from 8k-15k
150mmx50mm natural combo La Grise Coticule
Lapping film in progression up to....I wanna say the finest was .3 micron....can't remember for sure at the moment
A variety of hanging leather strops and a paddle stop that I'd be willing to devote to knife use
I'm assuming the Norton's and one of the finer natural finishers will do, but am I missing anything? And how fine is it really worth going on a kitchen knife? I have all these already for honing straight razors....I'm guessing I don't need to go as fine on a knife, but you tell me?

Okay, this has turned into a book.

If I'm just rambling, I blame the 48 hour fever.

If I sound like I don't know what I really want, well, I guess I don't lol

I'm starting to think I should just delete this and keep researching, but I've been reading and reading for hours on end and keep coming up with the same questions at the end. So, thanks in advance to anyone who can help!


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## kevpenbanc (Jan 18, 2014)

As someone who got into Japanese knives less than 12 months ago, I would definitely upsize the gyuoto to 240 and the sujihiki to 270.
I have gyutos in 270, 240, 210 and 180.
240 is my goto.
Prior to this my main knife was 6 inchs 
The wa handle makes the knife a lot lighter. It's my preference. 
I have stainless and carbon - haven't really formed an opinion either way yet.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

kevpanbanc, thanks for the input, I'll keep it in mind /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Best advice I can think of for this early in the game etc is to keep asking questions, and research the new questions that develop from the answers, and repeat 

Also unless I missed it please share your budget, and unless it's large dedicate much of it to the gyuto or chef's since it will normally see the most use and therefore is most important to get right.

Two first questions are if your sure you don't want too thin (the carbo next is very thin and that's part of the attraction and why it works well) and of you need to get all the knives at once? 

Also edge grain boards are OK, but don't be surprised if you find yourself wanting a end gain that will extend time between sharpening more do to bring more friendly to verythin and sharp edges.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> Best advice I can think of for this early in the game etc is to keep asking questions, and research the new questions that develop from the answers, and repeat /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
> 
> Also unless I missed it please share your budget, and unless it's large dedicate much of it to the gyuto or chef's since it will normally see the most use and therefore is most important to get right.
> I didn't list a specific budget, because I don't really have one in mind. Since this is more of a want than a need, I'm just kind of going off my gut on how I feel when I see a price. I felt more or less comfortable with the $400 price tag of those 4 I listed for the CarboNext line, but kind of cringed when that price jumped to $580 in VG-10.....I know that's not entirely an answer, but at least a vague guideline. If there's something out there that an amateur home cook would enjoy just as much for less, I'm happy to pay less. If there's something significantly better for just slightly more, I'd consider that too


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Not in order lol

Good that you have the end grain board, bad that I totally read it wrong 

Your budget is more than most and I don't believe I am that high yet myself, but I do sell the knives being replaced most times.

On to the actual selection of knives.

After thinking real hard about allowing the largest amount to go towards the gyuto, and considering to settle on the others (unless you use a petty often getting a low cost one frees up cash for a higher cost gyuto and you can always get a better one later etc) ad this will see the highest amount of use and time I your hand. 

That said I have to say that In the time I have been researching and comparing choices in J knives the main complaint i hear on the CN series seems to be the edge. It seems common for these to need a full sharpening and even thinning behind the edge before reaching optimal sharpness. If your up to this I believe they are a real value, but this is all based on countless reviews of others (I never owned one) and some trusted comparison to the Konosuke HD which I do own and is made from a similar but different semi stainless steel and enjoys a very thin blade.

If you have seen any of my previous posts on my Konosuke you already know I love it, and though a very difficult decision for me based on the fact it was nearly 4x what I paid for the Fujiwara FKM that I was extremely happy with (and the prices are all higher now) and I had the Fujiwara seriously sharp and reshaped to my liking etc etc. 

IMHO if the "flippyness" is similar to the HD it's not am issue unless your used to and somehow like the super thick German knives and demand a similar feel in your next knife. 

Thin to win! 

There is a decided advantage to a thinner blade for perceived sharpness, and IMHO actual performance for my style of cutting (read BDL info on glide and guillotine) and even when just plain chopping etc. But that's me and I openly accept any of the other possible downside issues others have presented, but I don't see any of them anyhow. 

The problem today is that with the increases in pricing and the exchange rate for the dollar these knives are getting expensive, and In relation to the Konosuke this combined with their success and the success of the distributor here has us paying even more than sone other brands. 

This does two things. One is it makes it harder for me to recommend the brand due to the cost despite my believing it's the best chefs knife I have owned. Two is that the price range opens up all kinds of different options. 

Once your up to the 300 range there is a lot to look at, and most are good choices so the decision gets that much harder. 

Sad though since when I got mine there wasn't much competition in the price range and that made the choice a lot easier. 

If your target price is around the CN cost then your choices are a bit more limited, and it is one of the standouts for value. 

If your dip a little lower in the price arena they're are also some great values (Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM etc) that are also great performers, but have different ergo's and more basic steels. Still both steels used are fine, and hardened above what most are used to in Western knives, and will get and stay much shaper while allowing a lower cost that should fit most budgets. 

Since I was working with a really tight budget when I first looked into J knives I went this lower cost route knowing I could always upgrade in the future, and I can't see any reason why you couldn't use the same approach with the CN or any other brand that fits based on your budget. 

One thing I am 100% positive on is one you start using and sharpening your first J knife it will all become a lot clearer just what everyone had been trying to help you to understand about the various differences and improvements between the different brands and you will likely want to experiment others and be adding to or replacing your knives add time goes on. I know that is my story lol.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

thanks for taking the time to write that all up Lenny

Also not in order:

That's kind of why I didn't originally list a specific budget LOL While I'm comfortable spending a few hundred bucks, that speaks more to my bank account than my skills in the kitchen, and I didn't want it to be about that. The knives I could actually afford are lightyears beyond any set I could ever justify owning, you know? I didn't want to start getting some crazy high end recommendations and talk myself into them because: "well, Knife B is sooo much better, and only about $50 over my budget, I can stretch it a bit"...."oooh, but if I'm willing to do budget plus $50, take a look at what I can get for just $40 more!". It'd go on forever, I'd end up with a knife many pros dream about, and it'd get used maybe once a week /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

One thing where I go completely against what I stated above though: I don't see a point in cheaping out on the smaller knives. I know it goes against what a lot of people feel in this topic, but I'm a bit anal in wanting a set that matches....I might be just a little OCD LOL
In that case I'd rather up my budget a little (if needed, depending on the gyuto I decide on) and keep them all the same.

I know a lot of advice here is that petty knives and paring knives should be bought cheap and replaced when needed...and I can see where that makes sense in a professional environment. But for an occasional home cook I don't see it getting used and abused enough to say that I'd ever need to replace it from overuse.

I might be putting more stock than I need to in the thinness issue. I just keep seeing posts about different knives that say something like: "it's a more flexible blade, which some people may or may not like". For all I know, I might love something like that. I am used to more solid/stiff blades and as I mentioned, I'm not very skilled now, so I guess I could get used to a thinner/more flexible blade just as easily as I could learn how to use a stiffer blade better.

This is where it gets annoying wanting something nice before you really have the experience to know what you want /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

(and, I'm sure, frustrating to those trying to help, sorry!)

I'm okay with the idea of having to sharpen a new set. And I've done a bit of research on what's involved in thinning a blade behind the bevel and I'm confident I can manage that part as well.

However, last night I did some more digging around and found some more info on making and replacing Wa handles...and, man, it's something I really want to try lol (I've got some woodworking experience, and all the tools needed for it already, up to and including a lathe that I'm still working on learning to use)

But then that leads me back to my original dilema: The wa-gyutos I've seen highly recommended are out of the price range that would make any sense for me. The ones down in this price range, I keep finding not so great reviews about.

The Tojiro, for example, I've heard are okay.....but I've also heard some issues with F&F (not such a big deal if I'd eventually re-handle them), but also have heard a couple issues with the finish wearing off on the ones that have the kurouchi finish, and issues with uneven grinds....those are two things I can't correct

I think if I'm sticking with western style handles, I'm leaning towards the "bargain" CarboNext knives still. But I guess I need to do a little more research on Wa-styled knives first, to see if I can find a comparable 'quality:value' bargain.

(before I go totally insane, buy the CarboNext, then decide that ripping off the handles and grinding down the tangs to fit a Wa handle is an easier solution than going through another 500 pages of search results /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif)

Suggestions welcome, of course, but I'll also keep digging around on my own /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Digging around is fun though it may occupy a bit of your time. One caution is that many people take OCD to a different level, and many of the opinions and feedback out there is splitting hairs and just not functional for most home cooks who very honestly have and will continue to find even a sub $100 Tojiro DP the sharpest knife they ever owned, and also the best best edge retention etc etc. Much as I am fully happy with my Tojiro DP knives I know they are not the "best" but the steel is still great, gets super sharp, holds an edge etc and unless I end up doing a whole lot more cooking or just find a few hundred I need to blow I'll stay with the twenty something petty and $12 used Sujihiki I got off ebay. 

The only idea I will try and push you on is not matching. The most fun and best feedback as well as learning has come from being able to compare the many differences between the different knives, steels, handles, performance, and how they sharpen.

I know it wad hard for me to pull the trigger on my first order and received some nudging from various people to just do it already, and I fully understand the hesitation because I had similar concerns. 

For me maybe the trip is half the fun, but to simplify it a bit look at it two ways. One if you really don't have concerns on $ and want thin go for the Konosuke HD over the Carbo Next, but if you rather find more value and know you can always trade up in the future go in the other direction. 

Or mix it up and try one of the various other options for the remaining types, and you will have enough to compare to be sure of what you want for completing you end set.

And we didn't even get into carbon knives yet lol


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> if you really don't have concerns on $ and want thin go for the Konosuke HD over the Carbo Next


LMAO See? That was exactly my point....if I say I can afford better, the next suggestion comes out over double the price hahaha

Do they look good and sound good from what I've read and seen? Absolutely. But does it make sense for someone at my skill level to buy 3 knives for almost $700? Not at all lol

You hit my other point too though, I'm sure I fall into that category where the worst of the knives I've considered are probably all leaps and bounds beyond what I'm used to.

I'll do a little more digging specifically on the Tojiro DP's

(I don't know why I'm just now noticing the link in your signature /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif)

oh boy....you wanna talk carbon too now? haha


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

kavik79 said:


> oh boy....you wanna talk carbon too now? haha


Because now that you have me looking deeper into the Tojiro's, I'm casually eying the Tojiro Shirogami (White steel #2) LOL

For every decision I think I make, 2 more options seem to pop up

Cheaper prices and decent reviews on CK2G, for those who don't mind doing their own "final finish" work on the knife when it arrives. And they seem to be a decent candidate if the handles might get changed out eventually anyway

While reading, I gave a lot of thought to the suggestion of trying out different knives...and I have an idea that I could consider buying a few different petty knives without dropping a bundle. Get a basic idea of the F&F of each brand in person (a very basic idea, I've seen people mention how a lot of times the bigger knives get better attention to finish than the small ones on cheaper brands), and get a feel for each of the different steels. I think this might be the most practical approach for me, considering I'm not actually in any rush to HAVE to get any of them

CarboNext 125mm Petty (Semi-Stainless Carbon Tool Steel)- $66

Pro: Good reputation for value, easier maintenance, nicer looking than the DP's for western style handles (IMO)
Con: highest price, ?
Tojiro ITK 120mm Petty (White #2) - $33

Pro: Wa handles that I'm interested in trying, easier sharpening, I like the looks overall, cheapest price
Con: Lower edge retention (shouldn't be a huge deal for amount of use they'll see), high maintenance carbon steel
Tojiro DP 120mm Petty (Clad VG-10) - $50

Pro: I like the idea of VG-10 (based on a SOG pocket knife I own) for sharpness and edge retention, decent reputation for value (but might need some work)
Con: a little bland looking out of the 3, questionable F&F depending on which review you read
After writing all that, I'm realizing this whole post is more just rambling/taking notes for myself than anything else LOL

oh well.

Crazy idea? Or do you think someone can get a feel for these knives just based off comparing Petty's?


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

The itk is an extremely reactive knife, something to be aware of


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## denverveggienut (Mar 8, 2012)

Hope you are feeling better! Not that obsessing about knives is a bad way to pass an illness... Anyway, the Tojiro ITK could be an interesting entry for you into the J-knife world. I had one of the 120mm petties. It got nice and sharp, but the handle sucked and it was very reactive. So, it sort of shows you a little bit of what is possible, but has you wishing for more. I got the ITK petty, and also a Fujiwara FKM petty. I sold the ITK, but still have the Fujiwara. The Fujiwara isn't as eager to get sharp as the ITK was, but it is handy to have around for citrus and such, and it serves as the "good knife" that guests aren't too afraid to use.

You might as well go Carbonext, though, or even get a Hiromoto AS. Nice carbon steel sandwiched between stainless. I can't speak to the Hiromoto gyutos (I'm a cleaver guy and love my Ashi Hamono white #2 cleaver dearly), but it seems like the Hiromoto might be worth checking out. Is it much better than the Carbonext? I can't say, since I haven't used the Carbonext, but I can say that the Hitachi carbon steels I have used thus far (white #2 in the cleaver, blue #2 in a Tanaka petty, and blue super in a Zakuri gyuto) have all been stellar performers.

Starting with the petty, and then going from there seems like a good idea. And you may find you can hold off for a while on the sujihiki. Probably not as essential right off as the petty and gyuto.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Thanks Denver...I'm getting there (too slowly for my preference LOL)

thanks for the added input (you too Chrismit).  I did see about the ITK being highly reactive....but read where one person said to  just burn through a pile of onions and build up a patina, then it should be good  as long as it's kept clean and dry (the usual stuff to avoid rust, but no longer worrying about stains). 

Did you own yours long enough to get a patina on the blade? If so, did you still have problems with additional staining on top of that?

another general question on confusion with blade types:  I'm not even seeing a sujihiki in the Tojiro line.  If I did still want to get a slicer and do end up going with that one, would you guys suggest considering the Kiritsuke or the Yanagi? 

The more I look at these, a lot of people are also saying the best bet is to remove the black finish from the blade right from the start.  Maybe they're starting to sound like more trouble than they're worth lol

I don't know, too tired to think about it anymore tonight.  Thanks again for all the replies


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## denverveggienut (Mar 8, 2012)

Yes, I had the ITK for a good while, about 22 months. I didn't find forcing a patina with mustard was particularly helpful. The core white steel was pretty much OK, but the cladding really reacted with everything. I think it is the impurities in the steel of the cladding. The last straw was when I tried to use warm vinegar to force a patina to try to fix the reactiveness. The vinegar just took off all the kurouchi finish, and left the whole thing even more reactive than before! Whereas, with other carbon knives, I haven't had much problem. The white steel cleaver took a patina and now doesn't change at all, no matter what I cut. The Zakuri aogami super san mai gyuto I have also doesn't react much at all- neither the core, nor the cladding. That's why I think the Hiromoto AS could be pretty easy to live with- stainless cladding, and then blue super for the cutting edge. Blue super is less reactive than white steel (due to the added alloying ingredients tungsten, vanadium and chromium), and even white steel isn't bad, since it has a pretty low level of impurities...


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

very interesting, thank you

I wonder if it might work to purposely strip the kurouchi finish before it has a chance to start to wear off on it's own, then use a chemical gun bluing kit to recreate it.  At ~$40 for the knife and bluing chemical, it might be a fun experiment to try just for the heck of it, and still be a good cheap candidate for practicing making and replacing a Wa handle


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Just a thought but everything mentionedin the above few comments are good potential choices. 

Also keep in mind that the petty sees little if any board contact and are typically very thin so will normally get and stay sharp etc. My 120 DP petty is always the sharpest knife when it's time for re sharpening the larger ones and due to its size the quickest and easier of the bunch to bring back.

I don't agree 100% with the idea of getting 3 of the same, and think you might do better to go 1 petty and then mix it up again with maybe even a short gyuto in one of the less expensive variety (DP, FKM etc) or even a sujihiki, but pull the trigger on your main gyuto at 240mm or more, and from what your saying so far the Carbo Next would make sense. 

After you get some time in and find your ready to move up or over or just want to experiment etc you will be much better prepared, and typically can sell the old ones if you like. Oddly The Used Prices This Year Are At Or Above Last Year's Sale Price New On Many EBay Auctions.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

I think my thought behind doing 3 of the same, aside from keeping the costs down while choosing, was just to kind of keep the comparisons more apples to apples, so to speak.
I think I'd just be annoyed if I did one of each, and ended up liking the petty (the cheapest) and not the gyuto or sujihiki (the more expensive) LOL
I'm sure I can find friends or family who would take the 2 "losers" off my hands anyway 

I've been checking on the other suggestions...I think you're right though, I'm really leaning towards the CN's if I stay with the western handles.  But I'm still really on the fence at this point between western (is that 'Yo'?) and Wa.  I'm going to see if I can get out and find any Wa type locally this weekend to see if I like how they feel...if I rule those out my decision will pretty much be made (I think lol)


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

Depending what you decide on wa vs yo and if you want a set this would get you excellent knives around the $400 dollar mark
Kono hd or hh 240 gyuto (usually wa but you can find western)
Tojiro dp or Fujiwara fkm or fkh petty
Fujiwara sujihiki 

If its not an appearance thing and you pinch grip the transition to wa handle is almost a moot point
I own a carbon Fujiwara and the steel gets exceptionally sharp. My wife has a dp gyuto and comes with a nice edge oob and is very sharp as well. I truly believe you will be better served spending the most on the gyuto as it is likely to be the most used knife by far.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Good advice once again. 

I want to repeat and add to the point of how the handle isn't really a factor for someone who uses a good pinch grip, and expect for a few knives like a petty or even a sujihiki for some your not handling the handle.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

The pinch grip is the first thing I'm going to try to start doing, looks easy enough to learn to do

That was actually a concern of mine, but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to sound stupid LOL  I was thinking a petty would be more hand on handle, as opposed to the larger knives. Another reason I wanted to try one of each side by side, because the Yo handles do look more comfortable for that, but we'll see.

Thanks Chrismit, I'll look into those as well

There might be something broken in my brain.  The more I see people talk about how finicky the steel in the Tojiro ITK's is, the more I want to get my hands on it to fiddle with it LOL


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

If you want the itk go for it. Not overly expensive and if you don't like it sell it or give it away


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Chrismit said:


> If you want the itk go for it. Not overly expensive and if you don't like it sell it or give it away


Oh, I'm definitely going to 

Could always use a good letter opener if nothing else LOL

I checked out your other suggestions as well. Regardless of what type of steel I go with for the kitchen/prep knives, I'm liking the idea of stainless for a slicer. If I'm slicing something at the table I don't want to have to fuss with cleaning the knife, then having someone ask for another slice. (this could be a breakthrough people, I'm starting to ignore the idea of everything _having_ to match LOL)

I think I like the blade profile of the Tojiro DP sujihiki better than the Fujiwara though, a little less of a curve to it....I may be wrong, but my gut says that would be better for keeping long slices straighter

Are you suggesting the Fujiwara because you feel it's a better knife? Or just to keep the price down? For a $20 difference I'd take the better knife and ignore the combined total

The Konosuke HH on the other hand....compared to the CarboNext it's over twice the price, a $140 difference.

-Both use a "High carbon, semi-stainless, tool steel".

-All physical dimensions are comparable, with the Kono being a slightly thinner blade

-Kono is significantly lighter, but I'm assuming a good portion of that is in the handle and that chunky steel bolster

-Kono is listed as 61HRC, CN listes as 59-61HRC

It's a nice looking knife, but I'm trying to see where that much of a price difference come from? Is the steel itself that much better? (and, honestly, would someone like me even notice?)

So far the only thing I've actually made a decision on is something that wasn't even a part of my original plan /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

A Tojiro 270mm ITK Bread Knife

I need a good serrated bread/squash/melon kind of knife too, especially as I look at thinner/lighter blade gyutos. Have read/watched some very good things about this one, and when I stumbled across this I had just finished watching an online video series that had a whole section on serrated knives, suggesting that this slightly curved profile makes it much more versatile than a flat bread knife

So, not on topic exactly, but I'm counting it as progress!


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it's the hd you are thinking of that would be so much more. If you are looking at the hh its about 100 more. The kono is a "laser" the carbonext isn't by most people's definition. Not that one is better than the other just pointing this out. The f&f on the kono is excellent and the knife is ground exceptionally thin, I also love the tip. I own a lot of knives and I rotate through them but I always have my kono on the wall and I reach for that more than anything. I realize you are trying to compare specs but 2 knives can have identical specs and perform very differently. The numbers are not the most important part the carbonext is a good knife and good value for the money but it is not a kono in my opinion. I can not confirm this from experience but ive talked to enough people about it to feel comfortable saying it. if you want first hand experience with both maybe someone here has used both. As far as the hd or the hh only difference is the steel, one is full stainless and one is semi. A lot of people like the hd due to sharpening, I don't find the hh difficult to sharpen at all. It gets as sharp as my carbons and is almost as easy to sharpen. Ultimately it comes down to what you want out of a knife, matching set, wa or yo handle, profile etc.

I would think the Fujiwara and tojiro would both be good sujis. Here is a comparison http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmsu27.html


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

yes, I did mean to say HD.

And I completely understand that there are differences that won't be seen in the numbers...that's why I was asking instead of just writing off 

Specifically in the grind. The spines are reported at 2.3 and 2.5mm, so you'd think that's pretty damn close, but a deep grind on the 2.5 could end up with a thinner/lighter/more flexible blade than the 2.3 with a shallower grind

That's something I know well from my experience with straight razors...but at least with those there are terms for the different grinds, so you can have a fairly good idea of how the blade handles based on the description alone

Here's a chart of the basic grinds for those:





  








SRP_GrindForm.GIF




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kavik79


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Apr 19, 2014








Something like that would be super helpful here as well....though, I understand why it can't really be done that way

At any rate, I won't rule it out yet, it will go in the maybe column 

And thanks for the link. I had actually seen that video on there already, that's what I used to compare the profiles of the two. No two product pictures are taken at the same angle, but there were plenty of places in that video to grab a screenshot, cut out one knife, overlay it in a new layer and see how they line up

If anyone's interested (click to enlarge):





  








FujiwaraFKMvsTojiroDP_Sujihiki270.jpg




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kavik79


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Apr 19, 2014


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(Hope they don't mind me snagging a single screen shot, for education purposes)

That's the Fujiwara cut out, rotated just a hair so that the pins in the handles are parallel (this also put the vertical line of the heel in line, and the first couple inches on the blade at the heel are parallel), lined up right at the heel of the blade, made semi-transparent then colored so you can see the difference easier. It's certainly a subtle difference in the blade, more of a difference in the handles

I didn't end up getting out tonight, so the decision on yo v. wa is still on hold.....but still leaning more and more to wa for purely aesthetic reasons


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

I wouldn't expect you to purchase based solely on one persons advice. It's only my opinion, with knifes you talk to ten people you are likely to get 10 differnet opinions. To give you an example of specs not telling the story I have this knife as well http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkm24wa.html, very similar to the kono but no where near the performance. Was a great knife as a first wa handled knife to see if I like it, not a bad knife by any means, just not a kono. If you decide not to go with the carbonext and allocate your budget primarily to the chefs knife and are dont have to have matching, there are a lot of excellent knives in the price range. If you decide on the carbonext I would think you would be very happy with this selection as well. As always, there is no perfect answer. Only an excuse to buy, use, critique, and them buy more knives.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tojiro v Fujiwara is a very close comparison though two very different knives. To simplify I usually say the Tojiro has a better steel and the Fujiwara is just better feeling and f&f etc. 

Not that the Fujiwara can't get crazy sharp (I almost lost a finger when I used to take my gyuto to a higher level, and it was just sliding off the side of the board after I put it down a little off balance) but just that though they do a very good job with their blades the steel is a little bit different than the VG10 in the Tojiro and isn't going to hold an edge as long, and that increases with more asymmetrical and acute angle edges.

Also I have not found the Tojiro DP to be as bad as some claim either, and most of it is f&f anyway, and I have no problem with a couple odd fit issues with a handle etc for the performance at this price point. 

Konosuke is everything said above and more. The HD i have is the one that the linked house brand profile does try to copy and don't have a bad thing to say except how the price has gotten crazy. 

To better understand the lazer idea you have look beyond the spine thickness. Even though the difference between the Konosuke HD and Fujiwara FKM spine thickness is minimal the thickness below the spine leading to the edge is completely different and this makes a big difference both now and later as you sharpen because there is less thinning needed etc.

All this is confusing and just a bit to absorb without actually using any of the knives to have a base point for comparison etc and also what led me to ultimately decide on the Tojiro and Fujiwara as my J knives sp I could get a first hand experience before dumping any serious cash on a knife I had no way to compare.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Chris,

  No fear of that.  As helpful as your posts have been, the "maybe pile" was another way of saying "worth doing more research/getting more opinions" 

Lenny,

  It's definitely confusing, but I think I'm finally getting a handle on it (no pun intended lol).  With my last post last night talking with Chris, where I compared it with the different razor grinds, it suddenly made a lot more sense, in my mind anyway 

  And thanks for the side by side comparisons on the Fuji and the Tojiro, that's very helpful.  I'd feel the same way, taking the better steel and dealing with the fit of the handle myself. The one complaint I've heard a lot was that the handles are too bulky, but that's why man created files, dremels, sandpaper and elbow grease, right? 

 What really shocked me on the pricing of the Konosuke's more than anything else was the value they put in their handles.  I saw a few blades for sale without handles, and comparing them to the same blade with a handle the difference was over $100 for their Ho wood and over $125 for the ebony.   If they would offer the HD series without handles at that price difference I'd be all over the whole set of them lol

Of course, that was also in their Fujiyama line, so I'm sure the fit and finish of those handles is flawless for that price.

Also, last night I did a little playing with the knives I have here.  Tested out the pinch grip and a few instructions I got online for hand placement, arm movement, and all that stuff....and, just, wow. Super easy, much more comfortable and so much more control right off the bat!  Very, very exciting when you can see such a quick improvement when you're learning something new

Anyway, you guys have been great.  You've given me a ton to think about and look at at.  Thanks again for your time and patience!

I'll do a little more research and finish making my decision on style, but other than that, I can't really think of anything else to ask at the moment (of course, that could change an hour from now haha)


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Well....good news/bad news

Found a local Williams-Sonoma that sells Shun knives, so I could get a couple wa handles in my hand.

The diamond shaped handles on the Fuji line were ridiculous. Huge, clunky and uncomfortable even with a pinch grip

But the D handles on the Classic series were incredibly comfortable in my hand. Didn't get to actually use it, it wasn't the kind of place where you can test them out, but just holding it felt very nice and natural.

On a side note: those poor knives.....I physically cringed when she put the Fuji with the $400 price tag back on the display wall, by pointing the edge of the blade straight at the magnetic strip, acting like she was afraid to even hold the knife, moved slowly forward until the magnet grabbed the blade with a solid *thunk*, then layed the spine down /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

So, the good news about this is I know I like the feel of a wa handle (of that size/shape) as much as I like the looks of it.

The bad news is, ALL the lower priced options I was looking at did not have wa handled versions, with the exception of the Tojiro ITK, which I need to play with first to see if I'm okay with the super reactive metals

I was kind of hoping to be totally put off by the feel of them, to make this decision easier /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Think I'll take a day and contemplate sacrificing money, or sacrificing looks and worrying about wa handles and higher grade knives down the road


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't know completely why the ebony handles add so much to the price or for that matter why the upgrade seems to have increased more than the knives themselves, but they are nice lol.

Actually though many Japanese products have seen continued price increases (not just cutlery) it seems some brands have increased more then others. I can only assume this has as much to do with the retailer as the manufacturer, but then I figure the more expensive brands increases seem more extreme if marked up 10% for a few consecutive years than there lower end. Obviously you notice the $165 that a $500 knife could increase more than $16.50 increase on a $50 one. 

On the Tojiro v Fujiwara and one being better etc I have to add that the Fujiwara steelI the FKM series is fine, and as a plus a bit easier to sharpen, and the molybdenum steel is just not as hi tech, and not hardened quite as high. 

They are both worlds above the Henckel or Wusthof knives I have used or owned, and my Fujiwara gyuto still does get used though it sits next to the Konosuke. 

Oddly I'm starting to think it messy be interesting not only to learn your ultimate choices etc but also just what toy may end up thinking, and then later trading up to. 

I expect my next knife with be either blue or white steel carbon as I really want to try out the steel, but the decision will likely take a while add there are many choices in a large range of qualities and pricing. 

It truly can be a journey, and so far the experience has been positive.


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## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

FWIW, the ITK's have a nicely shaped D handle. It's very comfortable. The f&f is terrible but I ended up fixing that for the most part on both my santoku and 240mm gyuto ITK's with just a little work. For me, they were fun, cheap project knives and got me to love white #2, my first carbon knives.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Lenny,

My guess is there's a number of reasons for he overall price increases....but from a purely economical standpoint, I think I heard that part of the issue is plain and simple: the currency exchange rate tipping as the US Dollar has lost some value

I'll be happy to share what I end up with, what I think of them, and what I move on to after that (if anything)

I don't think I mentioned yet, but what I'm upgrading from is this cheap Chicago Cutlery set LOL That's why I say the worst knife mentioned here will be an improvement

And I lied. I didn't take a break to give this any thought, instead I went and started looking at prettier knives haha

I was just eying the Tanaka Damascus knives, available in both blue carbon and vg10/stainless damascus, both with D Wa handles. Seem extremely reasonably priced for hand forged damascus.....going to be looking for reviews on those next. Last one, before I bite the bullet and get a couple in hand to try out.....I swear LOL

Vac Cardenas,

Thanks for the info on those ITK handles, good to hear for sure


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## kevpenbanc (Jan 18, 2014)

My 240mm gyuto is a tanaka blue 2 damascus.
I have seen posts complaining about f&f, blade profile and the quality of the handle.
The finish on mine was good.
I cannot comment on the blade profile as I don't have the experience. 
The handle is definitely somewhat cheap, but it does its job.
I like the knife and it seems to sharpen well - but I need more practice on the stones 
Definitely seems like good value to me.


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

Just to make sure you are aware, not all wa handles are d shaped. Many/most are octagonal/oval. Still comfortable when using a pinch but some prefer the d. For me personally being a home cook using a pinch I have both and have no preference.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I think in general too much emphasis is put on the handle, and I'm guilty as well. 

This is an area I don't think there is much change between home and pro once the price increases because it just makes sense that after some point in cost more things just need to be right to make the decision satisfying. 

An example is that I can easily be fine with a cheap nothing special handle on my sub $20 KAI bread knife (though sadly it's one of the few I actually grip the handle lol) and it's even acceptable not to be perfect on my Tojiro DP Sujihiki, but I would likely return a knife for the same issues after around $120 and above.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

kevinbanc,

  I haven't had a chance yet to go through any more reviews on those specific knives, but I appreciate your first hand opinion, thanks 

Chrismit,

  I am aware, but appreciate you checking.  Unfortunately the only ones I could find locally that weren't D shaped were the Shun Fuji, and like I said, those were just ridiculously bulky, it was absurd.

Lenny,

  I can definitely see your point, if all other aspects are equal.  But at the same time, I'd be happy to compromise on the handle in exchange for a better blade at the same price point, knowing the handle could be replaced later.....so long as I knew what to expect ahead of time. 

  Honestly, in a way I'd feel better about having a handle that's functional and comfortable, but not exceptional.  That way I wouldn't feel bad about switching out the handle down the road and really making the knife my own

The thing is, I love the look of a nice, subtle damascus blade, I always have....but I ruled them out right at the start because all the ones I had seen in the past were either junk or in the $500/knife or above range.  At <$200 for a 240mm hand forged damascus gyuto, I'm willing to give it a closer look, even if it had no handle


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Kavik I understand your point and also agree. 

Except for the budget and looking forward to changing handles I had pretty much a similar experience trying to figure out what wad my better or best options and finally making a decision. 

Yes I also read countless reviews, debates on many forums, watched way to many demo type vids on youtube, questioned members on specifics for every model on my short list and all their recommendations, and was still not 100% comfortable from not being able to touch and handle the knife in person before purchasing. 

It's just a normal progression into things, and once you very to use any of the brands, steels, and types and then take the time to actually very a good result from freehand sharpening it will all come together and make complete sense, and you will Never be the same lol.

Plus I was even more value driven than you seem to be, and had a lot tighter budget so it wad even more fun. 

Personally I was surprised I didn't mind the quirky and way long Wa handles, but now prefer them especially on lighter knives because of the better balance and lighter weight. 

Remember sharp trumps everything, and the steels ability to get there and how long it stays there will become (for many) most important, and fancy finishes and engraving etc etc will become more of a second or third decoding factor later on. 

Oh and after you get a handle on"which knives" to buy at need to talk sharpening, cleaning, storage and maybe more. 

Also I keep thinking about how I stressed over my first purchase and what i had to do to get into a comfortable position to make it happen, and how note much add there are several knives I would like to check out or own that are considered superior etc I am still very happy with some of the entry level knives I got years back, and how well they perform etc.

As an example I can't find a reason to give up my original Tojiro DP petty as it's still a great performer and owes me nothing. Sure I know there are better ones out there and some I really like and would enjoy comparing different steels etc but I'm having trouble convincing myself I need another one that's a little different or longer. 

I was even considering getting a longer Konosuke to match my gyuto, but by the time I decided it was a worthwhile idea the price increase was so high I decided to put the money towards something different like a better sujihiki or maybe try a yanagiba etc. 

It just never ends lol


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Yeah, i am a little worried about that never ending part lol
I have a bad habit of getting into things and then collecting a lot more of them than i actually need....I'm going to really have to try to curb that habit when it comes to this

I know my freehand sharpening skills are a bit rusty, so to speak, but hopefully it'll only take me a little bit of practice to get back into the swing of that.

As far as storage goes....my kitchen sucks. And I rent, so i can't do a whole lot to change that.....but, i have 1 drawer in the entire kitchen, one. And counter space is tight.
So, my plans are to make a magnetic strip to wall mount them (with a wood veneer face to protect the blades).
This would go above a little free standing counter cabinet that i use for a standalone prep area, on the other side of the kitchen away from the sink and the stove (safe from steam, splashing water, flying grease, etc....but still only 3 steps away from the sink for rinsing and drying between use for the carbon stuff)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

That all sounds fine, and we can explore all the sharpening concerns after we know what knives your getting. 

It's good you have sharpening experience, and they should shorten the learning process.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Was doing some work over at my dad's place today and he was complaining that his knives are dull....a set of Henckels Internationals that I bought him a couple Christmases ago, before I realized the Henckles name isn't what it once was. Anyway, sounded like the perfect opportunity to get a little practice in 

Went a little more acute than I meant to, and thinned out a little towards the tip, but I'm not _entirely_ unpleased for the first bit of freehand sharpening I've done in years. At least I never slipped and scratched the face of the knife lol

Only did his paring knife to start. Just using the Norton waterstones. This knife had a funky grind from the factory....they hit the bolster on one side, stopped about 1/8" short of it on the other. Went 220,1k,4k,8k just to see how it'd come out, but it still needs a little more repair work down by the heel

I know it's not entirely on topic, and I need a macro lens, but I thought I'd share the results just for fun 





  








JAHencklesInternationalParing1.jpg




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kavik79


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Apr 22, 2014












  








JAHencklesInternationalParing2.jpg




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kavik79


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Apr 22, 2014








Factory edges were chipping if you looked at 'em funny. Even with the more acute angle I chopped and sliced across an edge grain bamboo cutting board a few dozen times (got a little rough with it, knowing I'm going to be re-doing the whole thing anyway), and the edge still looks good, no chips, still slices paper clean

Criticisms welcome if there's anything you can see from the two pics


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

There int'l line is basically the non German lower price point series that they started a while back and are decent when purchasing at discount and clearance stores etc and also though not their best still world's above the various ones they have made in China. 

I've sharpened a bunch of those in the past and agree it's not worth going too high or giving it a lot of polish as it only seems to reduce the edge holding etc. But more importantly is not to go too acute on the angles as the steel just can't keep it. This is part of what drove me to J knives on their Pro-S series (I had a combo of different Pro-S and 4 star etc) as once you changed the profile to feel sharp the steel would fold constantly. 

On the positive they are all adequate for the majority etc if left at their factory range of 22-30 deg.

Also the edge looks good enough that the sharpener should have a easier time moving to J knives, but may freak a bit due to the reduced angle and improved possibilities of scratching the blade


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Benuser,

Good eye. Yes, it has a reverse belly going on from the factory grind....or as I like to say, it's sucking in it's gut lol That's the part I meant when I said there was still a bit of work needed...the grind was so uneven that right now one side of it looks close to done, the other side still has a small section that didn't even touch my stone yet. I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to remove enough material to get he bevel to match on both sides without ending up with something that looks like a curved boning knife. If I have to grind down the bottom of that guard I'm going to have to polish the satin finish off the entire bolster/guard to make it look less obvious...that's more work than I planned on putting into it, but we'll see

I'm definitely not expecting this to hold a polish like this for long, but just for the sake of playing around and practicing, I thought I'd see what I could do with it. If it wasn't so late I was going to go to a 15k next lol But, the rest of the knives will get less angle, and less polish.

I think I'm going to have to look at picking up some separate stones for knives. The Norton combo stones have been lasting for light work on razors, but knives are going to wear them out twice as fast, and I really need something coarser than 1k, but not as harsh as the 220 for bevel setting. I'll look into some full size stones this time, instead of the combos

Lenny,

Yeah, these are the made in China version, but they say forged, not stamped (I've heard there's both out there). It wasn't a bad deal with a 20% off coupon, and he's thrilled with them, so it works. (and actually, I kind of like the steak knives myself)

I'd say they're okay for the average home, assuming they stop chipping with a new edge on them. The 8" chef though.....there isn't a flat cutting surface on it! One big, sweeping curve from heel to high tip. But, whatever, he's not going to notice with the way he cuts.

Like I said above, I'll hold back on the polishing on them now, and I'll cut back on the angle when I go back and fix that low spot

Thanks for the compliment  I'll be fine with seeing a wider bevel on a knife that's meant to have it...but I'll do my best not to freak out over the possibility of random scratches as I hone my skills....pun intended /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to remove enough material to get he bevel to match on both sides without ending up with something that looks like a curved boning knife. If I have to grind down the bottom of that guard I'm going to have to polish the satin finish off the entire bolster/guard to make it look less obvious...that's more work than I planned on putting into it, but we'll see"

I wouldn't give a second thought to grinding the bolster to oblivion with the 220, or even a grinding wheel. 

It's obviously doing nothing but being in the way, and reminded me of just how much steel I had to remove from a Mundial chefs in order to make it work to my liking. It's almost a gyuto profile now lol


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

yeah, it'll most likely be the grinding wheel, then smoothed out on the stones.  I just want to run it by him first, since it's not my knife to alter. 

Hopefully it won't be needed on the whole set!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Doing the whole set sounds like a lot of work lol.

Maybe better to let it go.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Yeah it does lol

We'll see, I only brought home the paring knife and a slicer to start, when I return them I'll look at the rest and decide


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Okay, placing order before I start 'second' guessing for the thirtieth time LOL

Idahone 12" ceramic rod + eraser

Tojiro ITK 270mm Serrated/Bread knife

Tojiro ITK 120mm Petty (white #2)

Tojiro DP 120mm Petty (clad VG-10)

Konosuke Fujiyama White #2 Petty 120mm no handle

I included the Tojiro DP to get a feel for the VG-10, despite my decision to go with Wa handles. I'll play with it a bit, then I'm sure my brother in law will be more than happy to take it off my hands

And the Konosuke......I couldn't resist. After hearing all the raving over the Konosuke knives, this one from their Fujiyama line was $82 for the blade only, vs ~$200 for one with a handle....thought it'd be worth playing around with for that kind of savings, see what the difference is between the $30 Tojiro White #2 and a ~$200 Konosuke White #2

I'm still looking at the Tanaka Damascus too...but have to decide between Blue #2 and VG-10...and need to order those separately anyway. CK2G doesn't carry the VG-10, does have the Blue #2 in stock, but the petty is $110 and the gyuto is $190. Versus $70 & $140 buying from the maker.....where they're currently out of stock, but for that price difference I'll wait for new stock and shipping from Japan

(The Konosuke HD's are still high up in the back of my mind if I decide I can't deal with the reactive blades and decide against the damascus vg-10)

Downside is, I already hit my original, made up price point LOL But this includes the ceramic rod and bread knife that I wasn't considering when I first started looking into this stuff

(it's only money...it's only money.....it's only money......)


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## chrismit (Nov 18, 2012)

All excellent knives. The Fujiyama is a great price. You should get a sense how they feel on stones but as a caution gyutos will be very different animals. It's difficult to appreciate a good grind on a petty. As far as the tanaka goes I have not used one but have read some high praise (assume you're talking about the sekiso). Good luck with your knives, play around, see what you like and what you don't and go from there


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Yeah, it'll be tricky, I know....but i figure it'll at least help with a couple things that just comparing pictures can't
If nothing else I can at least see just how much the non-stainless is or isn't going to be an issue for me

I've heard lots of good on the Tanaka's, and some bad. Mostly things like rough choils, sharp spines and cheap handles (all of which are non issues IMO), but also the occasional mention of bowed or wavy edges. That's obviously a bigger issue, and something i can't fix on my own, but that was only 2 reviews mentioning that out of dozens of positive comments

If you're curious, they can be seen here:
Blue #2: http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/33
VG-10: http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/36


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## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

"On a related note....and this is probably putting the cart before the horse....but, can anyone point me to a good walkthrough of how to re-handle a Wa handled knife? I've searched around and only come up with people showing what they've made, not much about how they actually go together."

Here ya go...


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Cheers Kartman


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

didn't take any more pics, but I got that bolster taken care of on my dads knife using the 220 stone, then a few light touches on the DMT coarse. Actually went a lot quicker than I anticipated and you can hardly see a difference in the finish where it was ground down. Not so scary after all, even if I have to do it on some of the others /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif

Took the angle back down closer to factory, stopping at the 1k stone. Did the slicer next using the factory angle as a guide this time. A few laps on the 220 (this was the one that was chipping the worst), then finished on the 1k also.

Dragged the paring knife across a board for about 100 cuts to see how the edge would hold up and it still sliced paper nice and clean, without even needing steeling. I'm satisfied /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

I'll be dropping these off tonight and picking up a couple more to do next. Thanks for the advice on where to stop with these, and the push to not worry so much about grinding on parts other than the edges

Sorry for the pointless rambling....getting anxious, my first J-knives will be arriving tomorrow /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Ben,

that would've been the smart approach, considering I had some not 2 feet away LOL

Luckily though, it went super fast because of how it tapers towards the bottom, only needed a handful of swipes per side and a tiny bit of blending...when I was done and rinsed the stone I didn't see any visible wear spot to give away what area of the stone was used

Will keep that in mind for future use though /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

So the belly is gone, and tomorrow is the big day! 

Just remember to post of what you think, both initial thoughts and after using them etc.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

definitely will!  sadly, a lot planned this weekend, so it might be a few days before having time to play much :-/

I'm excited though...even arranged to work from home on what would usually be an in the office day, so I can be sure they arrive safely.......if the emails and IM's stay at a minimum I can hopefully give at least first impressions.....for whatever that's worth from my untrained eyes lol


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

okay, first impressions (nothing cut yet but paper and arm hair):

Idahone 12" ceramic rod + eraser

yup, looks like a ceramic rod lol
smooth, no imperfections
Tojiro ITK 270mm Serrated/Bread knife

blade looks great, super sharp
handle is...okay. Can feel sharp edges of the tang sticking past the scales all the way around, but some wet/dry wrapped around a flat file should solve that
there is a small gap between the blade and the scales on one side. It feels tight, but I'd like to fill the gap to keep stuff from getting in there (any suggestions?)
Tojiro ITK 120mm Petty (white #2)

Fit and finish is exactly as crappy as everyone says lol
wood on handle sticks out past the plastic ferrule almost all the way around, by .6mm at the worst spot. Unfilled gaps between the blade and the handle
black finish it pretty spotty, already showing metal through in spot before using using it. Spine and choil are very rough...not even just sharp, but not smooth
Easily the thickest (and roughest) of the 3 petty knives
All that said:
the edge is _decent_ out of the box, but I'm sure can be improved
the edge seems to be a good shape, no bad grinds/weird curves/anything that would require major repairs right off the bat
all the complaints listed above were known ahead of time from various reviews and are easily fixed with a little work...nothing I wouldn't expect out of the least expensive knife

Tojiro DP 120mm Petty (clad VG-10)

no complaints on the look of the blade. Less of a curve than the ITK, pretty close in profile to the Konosuke. Thinner blade than the ITK, thicker than the Kono
The spine isn't rounded, but it's smooth and not too sharp
The handle has better F&F than the ITK, but still not great. Tang is flusf top and bottom, but not on the tail end.
Scale on right fits well, scale on left has a gap between the scale and the bolster thick enough to see light through (again, suggestions for filler? would gel spuerglue be okay?)
The pin in the handle closest to the bolster sticks out enough to easily feel on both sides
Konosuke Fujiyama White #2 Petty 120mm no handle

very thin and light weight
beautifully finished
spine is smoothly and evenly rounded almost to the tip, smooth transition into the last half inch where it's not rounded
choil is perfectly rounded off as well
if I had to point out one flaw, there is a tiny spot on the choil that gouges in below the finished surface. It's about the diameter of a fine tip pen, very shallow, can't be felt and can olny be seen holding the knife upside down and looking at a very specific angle
Based on just looks.....I almost wish I hadn't bought the Konosuke. It's in no way fair to compare the other knives against this one, and now it's going to be harder to talk myself into choosing the lower priced 'budget knives' lol

My only hope now is that I hate the reactive white steel after use /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Epoxy will be the best to fill in the gaps I believe.  Fill from one end of the handle and work toward the other so the air inside has a path of escape.  The cheap stuff you find in hardware/home supply stores may be too thick to fill hairline cracks, I'm not sure how water-friendly it is either, but the stuff you find these days is much better than it was years ago.  I believe it will do the job, but a quality laminating resin is really what you want to use, available on ebay for $25, and it comes in handy for lots of things.  Store it in the freezer in it will last for decades.  Don't use superglue, even if it's the good stuff.

Rick


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Traditional knives like the ITKs come with handles that are meant to be changed at some point.  Murray Carter likes to say "you buy the blade - the handle is free"  I tend to agree.  I just got an ITK 150 petty and this one has good geometry.  Easily the tallest petty available off the shelf.  I'll probably make a new handle for it as usual.  That white steel takes a stupid sharp edge.

What I usually do on these is remove the KU, round the spine and choil and force a patina before installing a new handle.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LOL that's a great quote Mike. If I end up liking the ITK, I'd most likely change out the handle and give the blade the same treatment you suggested, I just don't want to go through all that hassle before playing with it. I guess I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote what I did above about wanting to fill the holes. I'll just be careful not to let anything drip down in there while I'm testing it out

Or, heck, I've got some glue here for the cutting boards I've been planning to make. Food safe, will bond hard to the wood, but should shear from the metal pretty easy when I go to knock the handle off. Should make for a decent temporary solution I think

Just about to take that ITK to the stones now....interested to see how this white steel sharpens after all the comments I've read.

Only knife I've gotten to use so far was the serrated knife on a watermelon this afternoon...that one seems to live up to it's reputation as well, went through the rind like a hot knife through butter, and the size and slightly curved profile were very easy to work with. I'm a happy customer on that one /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

this might be a stupid question, but.......can anything be done if the blade has a slight bend in it?

I just was playing with the Tojiro ITK on the stones and something felt a little funny.  I layed it down on my DMT and noticed with the heel and the belly touching the dmt, there was a gap under the center of the blade letting light through.

Looked at the edge I was working on and the bevel is wider on the side that bumps up, narrower on the opposite side

Pinched the spine and ran my fingers up and down it, and I can feel a curve in the same spot.

I finished running it through the stones (I figured polishing further at that point wouldn't hurt, as long as I wasn't removing more metal) and the entire length of the blade cuts amazingly well...so, I'm not sure....do I need to worry about this? Or does the problem get lost in the bevel, as long as I grind away enough to make a bevel on both sides?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Seems like though you find as many distractions as I do your still on track with the main idea of getting comfortable with the pro's and con's of the different steels and difference in styles, F&f and quality in the different brands and price points etc etc etc. 

Once you get time to put them to the stones and compare how they sharpen and also get am idea on edge retention you should have enough experience to be a lot more confident I your next buy. 

I know it's very different because your comparing pettys and likely going to buy larger knives etc, but you will at least have a base point to compare and a lot more info than before. 

Also it's great to hear your happy with your initial choices, amd should be interesting to see your thoughts after getting some time with them and which ones you hold onto. 

It almost makes me want to start soaking the stones and do some sharpening lol.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

The various issues of a bend in the blade seem to depend on how big the bend is etc. 

My sujihiki had been abused before I got it, it was really bad initially, but I stopped messing with it once it was fairly close to flat since it would now sharpen acceptable etc. Still not perfect, but close as I'm going to get it, and no longer looks like a boomerang


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> Seems like though you find as many distractions as I do your still on track with the main idea of getting comfortable with the pro's and con's of the different steels and difference in styles, F&f and quality in the different brands and price points etc etc etc.
> 
> Once you get time to put them to the stones and compare how they sharpen and also get am idea on edge retention you should have enough experience to be a lot more confident I your next buy.
> *so far I've only sharpened and used the Tojiro ITK. Aside from the bend, it was a breeze to sharpen and got razor sharp. I used it last night to make a stir fry...i know that's not a ton of use yet, but so far still as sharp and no chipping (i was purposely a little rough on it just to see how it would react. No major abuse, but hitting the board harder than necessary)
> ...


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I think hoy would be OK to mess around with the DP before sharpening it as they come with a decent edge OOTB. 

Plus that way you will a start point to compare when you put your own edge on it and can judge the improvement (hopefully lol).


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

yep, you read my mind 

It's certainly good enough to cut with, but I'm sure there's room for refinement. (LOL yeah, hopefully)

Maybe while I'm playing with cutting and sharpening on that one, I should just pop the handle off the ITK and see if it will fit on the Konosuke. As blasphemous as that may be to put such a crap handle on such a nice blade, it could be a fun, *temporary* solution lol

We'll see how bored I get, I'm slowly running out of food to slice here haha


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Yes, what i meant was the bevel changes along the length of each individual side, indicating a high spot on one side and a low spot opposite it.
It's subtle, I'm not sure if I'll be able to capture it in a pic, but I'll try in a little bit (battery is charging)

I can't see going through the hassle on returning a $30 knife though, I'll try straightening it, then strip that black finish, polish the sides, thin the blade and see how it goes. Will be worth the experience for when i need to do these things on nicer blades


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kavik79 said:


> yep, you read my mind
> It's certainly good enough to cut with, but I'm sure there's room for refinement. (LOL yeah, hopefully)
> 
> Maybe while I'm playing with cutting and sharpening on that one, I should just pop the handle off the ITK and see if it will fit on the Konosuke. As blasphemous as that may be to put such a crap handle on such a nice blade, it could be a fun, *temporary* solution lol
> We'll see how bored I get, I'm slowly running out of food to slice here haha


Just find a suitable piece of wood and "git r done" on that handle lolJust find a suitable piece of wood and "git r done" on that handle lol


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Benuser said:


> About your bent ITK: bents and warps are very common after HT, but should be corrected more or less in factory. If you can feel them they have to be quite serious. Three possible approaches: sending back, correcting by bending back or ignoring and remediate by thinning and sharpening. None of my vintage blades has a straight spine, but all have a straight edge. I'm not impressed by different bevels on both sides, but the bevel should be the same on one side along the edge, I think. Show us a photo of it, please.


Here's a couple pics. A little hard to differentiate the glare from the actual bevel in a couple spots, so I labeled everything as well as I could





  








TojiroITKbend1.jpg




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TojiroITKbend2.jpg




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Don't mind the stains.......that onion snuck up on me lol

I did find a couple videos on straightening blades, I'll give it a shot (slowly and carefully)


LennyD said:


> Just find a suitable piece of wood and "git r done" on that handle lolJust find a suitable piece of wood and "git r done" on that handle lol


LOL now where's the fun in rushing it? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif

I'm thinking I might have finally found a home for this little chunk of Thuya Burl I've got here





  








Konosuke_ThuyaBurl_Medium.jpg




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Just not looking forward to working this kind of wood on a belt sander without better dust collection in place....the dust from this stuff makes me itch


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

I had trouble getting a pic down the length of the spine.  This lens has such a short depth of field
It's definitely a bend though.  You're right, the blade does thin at that point too, but it's definitely different from one side to the other.

I'll see if I can do any better with a different lens, or see if I can find something to hold the blade vertically for me


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

A side by side laying flat on a DMT hone:





  








TojiroITKbend3.jpg




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In this pic it kind of looks like they straightened the tip, but not the middle of the blade

Still couldn't get a "down the blade" shot in focus for more than about a third of the blade, but here's a top down look.

I had trouble seeing it in this pic, so I added some guide lines on the bottom copy.

Green for a perfect taper that only a machine could keep so straight /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Red where it starts to stray from the green lines.





  








TojiroITKbend4.jpg




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Like I said, it's really subtle, but enough for me to notice. I know I could sharpen the "smiling side" by lifting the blade a bit, but would need a narrower stone for the frowning side...or keep taking away steel till it evens out, then thin at that point and re-sharpen...so as slight as it is, I'd still rather try to straighten it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Maybe I'm being too picky, maybe it's just because I'm used to working on straight razors where a smaller imperfection is a bigger issue.....either way, I'm just going to have fun with fixing this up as best I can


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kavik79 said:


> Here's a couple pics. A little hard to differentiate the glare from the actual bevel in a couple spots, so I labeled everything as well as I could
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we have a winner lol.

Seriously that looks like it would look great on that blade.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kavik79 said:


> A side by side laying flat on a DMT hone:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The spine pics were real helpful to see the ever so slight bend to the left starting almost just before mid point or pretty much the center of the first 2/3 of the blade.

Just take your time as in my limited experience I have found it to be very easy to reverse the bend, and that can lead to multiple bends (both directions etc).

One thing I wasn't sure of from your description is if it's more profound near the edge?


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> I think we have a winner lol.
> 
> Seriously that looks like it would look great on that blade.


It will, if I don't screw it up lol I'm still working on my woodworking skills too. My original thought was turn a fat oval on the lathe, than slim down one side and make the other side into a D on a belt sander......but for the sake of simplicity on my first attempt, and my lack of practice on turning burled wood, I might go for just octagonal. I was thinking a black horn ferrule, but the only pieces I have on hand are way too thin for this /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif I have some more digging around to do, to see what else I have available


LennyD said:


> The spine pics were real helpful to see the ever so slight bend to the left starting almost just before mid point or pretty much the center of the first 2/3 of the blade.
> 
> Just take your time as in my limited experience I have found it to be very easy to reverse the bend, and that can lead to multiple bends (both directions etc).
> 
> One thing I wasn't sure of from your description is if it's more profound near the edge?


Yeah, definitely will go a little at a time and check often! Don't want to make it worse

I don't think it's more profound at the edge, maybe the same or slightly less....it's hard for me to tell


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

From my perspective when it comes to smaller knives getting the size of the handle right is as if not more important than actual shape. 

I feel for your attempt to make it as nice and special as you can since it's something i would be OCD with myself, but don't be so hard on yourself ad it's your first one, and you can always improve or change it later. 

I do agree a rich ebony of some kind would look really nice with the combo, but a pale balsa would be better than a naked tang lol.

Plus I'm curious to get another review on this steel and blade for when i start narrowing my own list for my next knife.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Well that was way easier than I was expecting it to be LOL

the knife is straight....took all of 45 seconds /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif

I didn't take any more pics, but layed down on the DMT, both sides of the spine touch the stone straight above the heel, then again where it starts the final taper to the tip


LennyD said:


> From my perspective when it comes to smaller knives getting the size of the handle right is as if not more important than actual shape.


Okay, one more question.......isn't this a left handed asymmetrical grind??

I thought the flatter side was supposed to be towards food you're cutting off of, and the steeper angle towards the food that's been cut, to help with food release? ('m a righty)





  








TojiroITKchoil.jpg




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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

A-HA!! So that's why you're still keeping up with this thread! :lol:

Definitely part of it lol, but also interesting to see how your going about it all and what your finding along the way etc. 

Also been getting an itching to buy another knife, but am trying to work out deciding between adding another Konosuke HD based on my experience with the gyuto I already have and find a amazing cutter or feeding my curiosity and OCD craving for experiencing a good carbon more traditional (single bevel?) Blade.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *kavik79*
> 
> Okay, one more question.......isn't this a left handed asymmetrical grind??
> 
> ...


Well, I've compared this pic to as many choil shots as I could find.....unless I'm looking at something wrong, this looks like the opposite of what I should expect from a right handed knife (despite the fact that I've also read that the Tojiro ITK's are symmetrical grinds.....but everyone seems to have a different definition and seem to jump back and forth between (a)symmetrical grinds and (a)symmetrical bevels in the same discussion, making it even more confusing)

So.....I've got some work to do on this one....more than the bit of practice I planned to get from just basic thinning of a blade

I cut up a few potatoes tonight to compare the blades

The ITK will only cut straight if I go slow and focus on keeping it straight the whole way through, but I've got to work at it.

If I loosen the grip or try to just cut normal, it slides out to the right like crazy.

Slices stick to the right side of blade.

Tried with the Tojiro DP with the factory edge: It's not as sharp as the edge I put on the ITK, but definitely very useable out of the box

more importantly, I had no problem cutting straight, thin slices

Releases cut food fairly well

Then I popped the handle off the ITK and stuck it on the Konosuke /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif

(It's ugly, and the tang is longer, so there's more of a gap from blade to handle....but it's snug and it's straight. good enough to test with)

Again using the factory edge, it doesn't feel as sharp as the other two, but cuts very well anyway

With this one I was just shaving slices off like nothing. Less than 1/16" thin through a decent sized potato, and by the time I got to the board I had gone off course just a hair, but wasn't out the side of the potato yet, maybe half the thickness off.
Whether it's the shape of the grind, or the thinness of the blade, I can't say for sure. But I can say that it does have the opposite shape of the picture above. Looks closer to straight on the left side (looking down while cutting), and slightly more of an angle on the right (though, obviously less pronounced, since it's so much thinner)

What I can say for sure is that I'm even more eager now to see what this thing does with a finer edge on it!

For now, my impressions are this:

The DP is a nice little knife. If I wanted yo handles and stainless blades these would definitely still be on the table. Only thing I'd need to make my decision on it would be finding some time to see how the sharpening goes with it

The ITK gets a wicked edge with ease.....but I'm not considering buying any more of them. The thickness and questionable grinds are the main reason, but also the fact that the cladding is 10x more reactive than the core steel, and it kinda smells really funky

The Konosuke, while definitely nice so far, is the one I've used the least. I like the thinness/lightness for small tasks.

I didn't pull out another onion or anything else that the blade would be highly reactive to, but just from the water it's definitely less reactive than the ITK so far.

And while so far I think I'm going to be glad I bought this one for the price without the handle, I can't see myself investing in the larger blades in the Fujiyama line. However, I'm not totally ruling out the less expensive 'regular' knives yet. The Konosuke Fujiyama White #2 240mm gyuto is going for $333, more than I'm going to spend on one knife. The non-Fujiyama White # 2 240mm gyuto is $238, more than I originally planned, but not _completely _outlandish.

If a 240 Fujiyama with no handle pops up for sale (there is a 270mm for $221, but I really don't think I need that big) I'd certainly consider it, but I'm not 100% sold on the carbon yet, I need to get a bigger selection of stuff to cut to finish making that decision


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Not so sure about that ITK being a lefty. To me the axis seems clearly off-centered to the left. You should address that counter-clockwise steering by increasing friction on the right side and decreasing it on the left one.


The axis is off-centered to the left, but that's with the edge up. Let's flip it around so the edge is down so I don't get confused here lol





  








TojiroGrindDetail.jpg




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I took a new pic with the handle off, so I could get the tang in the pic to help me center and level the image for measuring

The red grid is just to help make sure I was straight. Left it in because it helped see where the other lines change

Blue lines are tracing the initial grind - these are just slightly off from mirroring eachother, close enough that I'm assuming they were meant to be the same angles

Green lines show the secondary grind and the center line from the tip

So, key points:

Left side secondary grind starts lower and is at steep angle

Right side secondary grind starts higher and is at shallower angle

Center line from edge (axis) is approximately 2/3 to the right

To me this still looks like a mirror image of most of the other choil shots I've seen.

And a quote from JapaneseChefsKnife:

"Generally, Japanese kitchen knives are designed for right hand use with a slightly thicker and rounded grinding on the right side blade and a less rounded (almost straight flat) grinding on the left side blade."

So.....what am I missing?


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Because we don't normally stand on our heads to look at knives lol
(also, i think my first pic was slightly crooked)

Did some more drawing to see what I'd have to do to correct it.....it's going to be severe


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kavik79 said:


> Because we don't normally stand on our heads to look at knives lol
> (also, i think my first pic was slightly crooked)
> 
> Did some more drawing to see what I'd have to do to correct it.....it's going to be severe


It would only be severe if you intend to remain right handed :lol:

I guess that explains the great pricing 

All kidding aside I hope you plan to either return it or mark up the price and sell it as a lefty etc. As it's too aggressive a grind to be worth reversing, but the again you could just use it as is or pass it on to someone who won't notice or care.

At least you can start concentrating on the Konosuke.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> All kidding aside I hope you plan to either return it or mark up the price and sell it as a lefty etc. As it's too aggressive a grind to be worth reversing, but the again you could just use it as is or pass it on to someone who won't notice or care.


Ahh, Lenny, it's way to late for anything so simple as that! lol

I'm off to work, but stay tuned later this evening and I'll show you why
(hint: I'm no longer afraid about scratching up the face of a blade haha)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I have a feeling the next pic will be interesting. 

50/50?


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> I have a feeling the next pic will be interesting.
> 
> 50/50?


Honestly? At this point i couldn't tell you even if i wanted to lol
I need to keep going before I'll know if i can get it that far

There might be a delay on that pic....i knocked over my tripod/camera last night....thought it was okay, but tried taking pics when i went home on lunch and the shutter seems to be stuck closed...not a good end to the week *sighs*


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

kavik79 said:


> Honestly? At this point i couldn't tell you even if i wanted to lol
> I need to keep going before I'll know if i can get it that far
> 
> There might be a delay on that pic....i knocked over my tripod/camera last night....thought it was okay, but tried taking pics when i went home on lunch and the shutter seems to be stuck closed...not a good end to the week *sighs*


That sinks.

Now don't go throwing knife money away on some new camera


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> That sinks.
> 
> Now don't go throwing knife money away on some new camera /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


Yeah, I'm more than a little pissed at myself for it. I'll find out if it's fixable....but if it's what I think it is then it'll be around $250.....might as well upgrade at that point /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif Sorry lol

In the mean time, have some crappy cell phone pics!





  








regrind1.jpg




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Getting close on the left side.....

just a little more to go, but my hands were giving out on me by this point.

I didn't want to risk it on the belt sander, so doing this all with wet/dry sandpaper and stones

No shots of the left yet. The black is sanded off, but that's about it so far

And here's what I've got for the new choil shot:

(Remember, it's upside down again /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif)





  








regrindchoil1.jpg




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0 - Original

1 - where it's at right now (about .8mm thinner so far where the choil meets the tang...for some reason that was the nly measurement I thought to take)

2 - now, here's another interesting problem I found out at this point.....on top of the backwards grind, the white steel in the center isn't straight /img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif Hard to see in the pic, so I tried highlighting it.. Note that it was centered in the spine before I ground that down, but it has a slight curve to the left (you can see the start of the curve in the original (0)

My original plan was to stop here at a 50/50 (-ish) grind....but that bend in the core steel means the cladding on the left in the pic (on the right if you're cutting) is right in the cutting edge right now

3 - So....the way I see to get the edge centered back in the white steel and out of the cladding is by going past 50/50 and back to a right handed asymmetrical shape.

Thin just a little more off both angles on the left face of the blade (right in the pic)

Thin a bit more on the spine of the right face of the blade (left in the pic)

Taper sharper for the secondary bevel on the right face of the blade (left in the pic)

Then cross my fingers and hope that angle is enough to help with food release, since I don't have any hollowing in these grinds at this point

It'll cost me a little bit in blade height, but it was already the tallest of the 3 knives, so I don't think it will be enough to be a problem.....as long as I can pull it off like the drawing


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Well, I think I'm finally done





  








TojiroDoneRight.jpg




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TojiroDoneLeft.jpg




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TojiroDoneChoil.jpg




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Spine, tang and choil are all rounded.

Primary and secondary bevels ground to 1k

I tested out polishing one side up to 8k, before I ground down the left side more....it was interesting to see that the higher polished area reacted MUCH less to the water while I was working on other areas.

But I want to play around with a vinegar patina next, if that doesn't come out well I'll polish it back up again, then sharpen it up and see how the new grind and the thinner blade works out


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Somehow I'm thinking it should have been a lot less work to sell it as a lefty on ebay etc, but I see your having fun so I guess why not lol.

I'm pretty confident it will be usable when your done, but your still getting very little juice for a lot of squeezing 

More importantly you would have had the handle done for the Konosuke if you put this time into that etc, but don't let my reasoning slow you down. 

I am not sure how much value you need to put on that white steel line, and an thinking it may be more about keeping the left to right and center geometry correct (or close as possible for a knife originally ground to be opposite) across the entire blade. 

And maybe it's because I'm typically viewing your post on a cell but the recent pics look fine.


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

LennyD said:


> Somehow I'm thinking it should have been a lot less work to sell it as a lefty on ebay etc, but I see your having fun so I guess why not lol.
> 
> I'm pretty confident it will be usable when your done, but your still getting very little juice for a lot of squeezing /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
> 
> ...


Yeah, as difficult as it was, it was kind of fun /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif Plus, it was something I could do at odd hours of the night, as opposed to running power tools making a handle out on my porch. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif

And jumping into this much work on a blade I wasn't too worried about ruining, I think it was a pretty good learning experience overall.

As for the white steel line, my final stopping point was based entirely around that. I didn't go quite as far to right biased as I had planned in my last mock-up, I stopped when there was a good amount of white steel showing on both sides.

I think that part was actually really important, the softer cladding material is weird, it kind of leaves crumbles and clumps on the stones...If I didn't get that far enough away from the edge I'd be fighting that the entire time I'm trying to sharpen it

You can see the line in the first pic I posted just a few minutes ago....it's still a little closer than I'd like up by the tip, but I was having one helluva hard time thinning out the tip section


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

Hmmm...seem to be having trouble uploading an image directly from my phone

But, man, that vinegar patina is very unforgiving to any irregularities in the finish lol
Most of it came out beautiful, one low spot around the engraving didn't take it at all. Guess I'll have to sand that spot by hand to get down in there, then give it another bath


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## kavik79 (Apr 7, 2014)

I guess it works to upload to photobucket then link here. Weird that it looks like it goes through the whole upload process fine, then it just doesn't show up in the message

Anyway...that's how it turned out. Again, not a great pic, but it should give an idea if the final product (and show the spot that didn't take the patina)

It had a moderate edge on it just from shaping the bevels, nothing great, but i put it through a potato just for the hell of it. Obviously it took a little more pressure to cut, but I'm pleased to announce that it was cutting perfectly straight all the way through!


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