# Hello. Some Question about knives



## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Hello. I am new to this forum and it looks pretty nice. Been going through it and there are some interesting topics. I also hope I will be able to help aswell.

My questions is about knives. I just started working in a kitchen and I want to buy some new knives.

My problem is I dot know what are the Best brands. I dont want to buy cheap knives as I will be working at this place for 5-10 yrs for sure so I am looking for some good quality knives.

I set my eyes on these Brand Misono, Shun and Wusthof. Some also recomended Global knives.(All opinions are Welcome)

In a way price is not a problem I am seeing these as an investment.

My second problem is Which knife should I buy to start with For ex Chef/Cook's Knife, Santoku. Can you please recomend me 3 starting knives and a Brand please?

One last thing what is the difference between a Cook's Knife and a Chefs Knife?

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

First, I would actually use as many of the knives as you can. Talk to chefs and sous chefs. *Beware* of guys like me who are knife resellers.

After getting your feet wet, peruse websites like www.japanwoodworker.com to check pricing, availability, warranties, etc. Google other suppliers.

Find a kitchen supply store in your area with a working tinker/sharpener and *watch him work*. Does he respect your property or does he sneak off to the back room for an electric version of Jedd Clampett's grinding wheel. Oh, and buy him a tequila now then, and tell him how slim he looks on his Harley.

Examine the handle and the fit to your hand. At sometime in your career you're going to pull a twelve hour all-nighter organizing a last minute catering job. Will the "fit" cause repetitive wrist use pains?

And never push a knife until it is completely dull. Granted, your should learn to steel an edge, but know when to say "when."

As for the difference in a cook's vs a chef's knife, the only thing I can think of is in the length. A cook might be mincing ingredients for his chef, and a chef might be blocking down a larger section of meat. Hey, I just rub stuff with a wet rock...


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah I get ya though what knives would you recommend me. I am looking for good quality knives though I am not that much into knives so I lack knowledge.

What brand and which 3 starting knives would you recommend.

Thanks.
TheHerB.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

1. 10" chef's knife
2. 5" (or so) petty
3. Bread knife
4. 10" slicer (regular edge)

There are lots of very good knives in this world. The high end "German" knives are among them. I put "German" in quotes because some of them are actually made in the US, Switzerland, etc. 

While the good german knives are very good, good Japanese knives are much better. This is almost entirely because Japanese manufacturers use much better steel. Ironically (pun intentional), the steel is often European -- typically from Sweden. Japanese knives are lighter, more agile (point more accurately), sharpen more easily (if you use the right stones), take a much better edge, and hold it far longer.

Before making your decision on knife brand and model, consider how you'll be sharpening the knife. As a pro, you'll do yourself a great service by learning to sharpen "freehand," on whetstones. The best, most efficient stones are Japanese waterstones. 

There are a number of good Japanese brands for someone in your situation. A few brands which stand out in what seems to be your price range are Togiharu, Sakai-Takayuki Grand Cheff (extra "f" is correct), and MAC Professional. 

While being far lighter and more agile than a comparable Wusthof, MAC Pro are far more robust than almost any other Japanese knife. They also have great handles -- possibly the best in the business. I recommend their 10" chef's knife and 5" petty highly; and also the 10-1/2" bread knife (MAC but not MAC Pro) extremely highly. The slicers are also nice, but considering how and when the slicer is used, you may want to choose something different -- like a Togiharu carbon.

No knife is better than its edge and all knives dull eventually. In a pro kitchen even the hardest steel won't stay sharp for more than a few days. Figure your budget so it includes at least $100 in stones.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree. As time and funds permit, you might include a nakiri. With people going 'green' and choosing more healthy styles of cooking, a knife designed for veggies might be a good idea.

As for sharpening, well, in that regard I'm prejudiced. For every one chef that is good with a stone there are twenty who would be better off using the best Japanese nagura for a door stop. More knives are ruined by improper care than by actual use.

In life, most people recognize Ben Dale and Ernest Emerson as the top of the heap for freehanding a knife. The other few million of us would probably make better blacksmiths. Considering that, Ben invented the Edge Pro.

To this day I use an Edge Pro *to at least* establish my initial uniform bevel. Obviously many Japanese knives have a differing obverse side, and it is necessary to purchase 3x9 inch waterstones.

This week I sharpened about ten kitchen knives for two food hobbyists and used the Edge Pro exclusively. (Well, I used a tad of nagura pumice, but no one knew that...)

BTW, for my money the best man to ever call himself a sharpener is *Mr. Dwade Hawley*. He tests prototypes for Ben Dale, modifies existing fixtures to better serve our industry, and sharpens hospital equipment.

Mr. Hawley is a member of KnifeForums, and you can private e-mail him from there by becoming a member. He's the best.


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## rbrosseau (Jan 19, 2009)

How's it goin?

Having somewhat recently started my career in the wonderful world of kitchens, I would like to suggest a few things to you.

A) three knifes you need to get are 
i)8" or 10" Chefs knife , whatever your most comfortable with for general work
ii) 6" petty/ utility knife (a large paring knife or small slicer, zwilling henckles calls theirs a sandwich knife.) i use mine for small tasks like boning and chopping shallots etc
iii)a serrated bread knife. for obvious reasons. it does not need to be expensive. The generic yellow handled henckels works fine and can be cheaply replaced once dull.

Unless your chef says that you need somthing else, you can be get more stuff as you go along.

B) Any big brand name will do, just as long as you like it. Whustof, Mac, Henckels, Global etc all make awesome stuff. If it feels good to you that is the biggest thing. Also don't get stuck on a single brand. I like to hold the knives I buy before buying so I limit myself to what i can buy locally.

C) Don't get too exspensive of a knife if you are using them at work unless you are 110% sure that they will not get wrecked, borrowed, stollen etc.

D) These knives are pretty nice and won't break the bank:Amazon.com: seki magoroku . I have 3 of them and love them at work. They aren't as sharp as my Macs but then I don't care if they get dropped cause they are $40 not $120.They are made by KAI, which is the parent company of Shun.

Beyond that , I do love my Macs but i find that they are too brittle and delicate for a busy kitchen where at times anyone can grab them and use them as a screwdriver as one A-hole did to me one day. The tip of my Mac santoku is now 1/2" shorter and I am now less happy.

The European stuff is not as sharp or cool or whatever but they are solid workhorse knives and will last you virtually forever. But again, it has to be comfortable in your hand.

Also as boar_d_laze says make sure you also get some sharpening supplies, even if it is the basics like the roll sharp for the Mac knives and a ceramic steel. If you have a decent knife store or kitchen supply store in your area, most likley they will have a knife nut there more than willing to help you out with selecting your knife and sharpening.

Oh yeah, there is no difference between a cooks knife and a chef knife, some even call it a French knife, and if you go with Japanese brands they may call it a gyuto.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The four most popular styles of knives in a N.American kitchen are: (drum roll please):

A 8" or 10" Chef's knife

A paring knife

A Serrated Sandwich knife (Forschner makes the best bang for your dollar in this category)

A boning knife

Until you're comfortable with the above, don't expand your kit

O.K. if you're slicing sashimi, or smoked salmon, or terrines or the like, then go specialized.

Like others have said, if the odds are in the favour of your knives getting borrowed, abused, or stolen at work, don't bring them to work.

Aim for under $100 for your first Chef's knife, and here's why:

Like shoes, knives are highly specialized and very personal. A very expensive knife is no guarantee that it will fit your hand, be comfortable, or make you a prep-God. You need to practice with the knife, and work on your knife skills. Don't even think about speed, focus on accuaracy, speed comes naturally when you have accuracy..

A sub $100 knife will serve you well, and if you tire of it and get a more expensive one, you can use if for back-up or lend it out. I've met more of my fair share of cooks who've blown a big chunk of cash for knives, and a few weeks later don't like them, or can't be bothered with the sharpening regime and either want to sell them or they sit in a closet. 

A word of warning, both BdL and The tourist have been bitten by the sharpening bug. Well, I guess I too, have been bitten pretty hard by it. It's a very slippery slope. 


If you have no prior experience with sharpening, keep in mind two things:

1) Like with war and love, anything goes in the sharpening world. 

And exactly like war and love, a sharp difference of opinions can lead to, well, you know. 

2) Don't start "freehand" sharpening untill you learn about bevels, the importance of them, about abrasives, how to maintain the abrasives, and about jigs, or devices that ensure accurate bevels are established. There are books available and videos on youtube and the like that will give you this information. It doesn't make sense to go at a knife on a stone if you don't know what you're doing. If you're not ready, then take the knife to a pro for the first few times until you're ready. 


Above all, remember this:

A knife is just a hunk of sharp steel, the magic is in your hands and eye-hand coordination.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Fair enough. But remember that a lot of plumbers get emergency calls because an unschooled home owner tried to fix his pipes. Sharpening is a craft like anything else.

Consider the reverse here. Many restaurants report that their revenue is down. People are bypassing chefs to cook their own food. Many will never return. Heck, people are learning they can filter their own water cheaply.

There is no doubt in my mind that a hundred chefs just said, _"Cook their own food! They will never be able to recreate my famous signature dish...!"_

No, but I make a mean meatloaf. So, I'm *your equal*, right?

Same thing here. Even among the pros, their knives aren't as sharp as they think. Here's an example.

I live in Madison, Wisconsin. For several decades our community was home to the Oscar Mayer plant that processed pork products. From the kill-floor to the packaging, all of it was done here.

During that time, the conventional wisdom was that no one sharpened a knife like a professional OM boner. Well, the plant closed, and many of those same knives were given away to people who became my clients.

Very few--and I mean one in twenty--were well cared for, sharp, or even functional in their present state. The problem was simple. A boner was hired for his skill in taking pigs apart, not as a tinker.

Last week I met a young boy who is schlepping for my favorite Chinese restaurant while he takes culinary classes at our local MATC. My personal jackknife was sharper than any knife in his roll. He had poor quailty soft kitchen knives, and he didn't even know you could buy Japanese knives on the 'net.

I told him to ask his classmates for additional help. He reports that they were just as clueless.

After working for chefs I can report that while they might sincerely try to take care of their edges, most of them just rub them on a soft Arkansas or a red India. I have never met a professional who knows how to correctly sharpen a sashimi--the knife used to prepare fugu, making it devoid of fatal toxins.

Ego aside, just because you own a piano don't expect a call from Carnegie Hall. And even if you can remove silvers in your sleep that doesn't make you a sharpener.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

WoW. Thanks for the replies.

Well let me explain my position exactly. In a way I aint a cook and I will never be one. The place I work at is my dads and we cook traditional food. I know I aint good as a good cook but basiclaly I kno I am able to cook some stuff better than a good cook, difference is my menu is much much smaller than a cook's one.

I work in the kitchen for like 10-12-16 hrs a day every day so I am looking for some good knives and I want them to be of good quality cause I really like knives aswell.

Theft wont be a problem and I am sure I will take care of my knives.

I have considered Shun as they look really good but are they good when it comes to working with them?

Another thing about sharpening. Can you give me like a list on what to search for on youtube please I have no idea about sharpening in a way. though I used to sharpen a combat knife on a sharpening stone using "Oil"(forgot what it is called in english it's used for lamps. hope u got my point ) but when it comes to kitchen knives I have no idea.

Another thing the place I live I been to every cathering shop and I havent found any shun, misnono knives etc. Only cheap ones so I will have to buy them from the net. So I will not be able to hold them in my hand etc

Again thanks for your replies

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Contact Ben Dale at www.edgeproinc.com


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Okay, a couple additional notes, particularly now that you've clarified your situation.

1. Look into your local health code. In some places you cannot use wooden handles, in some you can't use carbon steel, and so on. Don't bother looking at stuff you're not allowed to use, right?

2. Sounds to me like you probably want "durable as ****" over anything else at this point. You don't sharpen, you're not an expert cook, etc. So what we need is a foundation, and if you get hooked you can always upgrade. People get nuts about "oh my god, these knives are SOOOO expensive!" and then go buy cars. See what I mean?

3. Your best bet, I think, is to look at what the other cooks in your dad's kitchen do as far as sharpening goes. Do they steel their knives? Hand-grind them on stones? Send them out? Plan to do what they do. Then buy knives that fit this model. So if everyone steels his knives, you probably don't want Japanese knives: you want German or French, which respond well to steeling. If everyone hand-grinds and gets a little weird about knives, you probably want Japanese. That way you can learn your habits from those around you.

4. I applaud your "buy the best as an investment" approach, but it won't work terribly well here. Fact is that a respectable Forschner will last a very long time if treated well, and doing the kind of cooking you describe you probably will never need more. But "need" isn't everything either. There's also having a knife that's a pleasure to use, or is exciting to sharpen, or whatever. Part of that is just aesthetics -- what you think is pretty, what feels nice in your hand, etc. -- but part of it really is quality. The problem is that you could go ludicrously up-market -- there is such a thing as a $500 chef's knife that's not just overpriced hype -- and not really get a lot of bang for your buck. It depends on how you cut, and what you cut, and how you sharpen, and all that.

At this point, may I recommend that you pick up a respectable set of Forschners or Dexter-Russells or something and just take it as it comes? If you get hooked, buy one fancy chef's knife (cook's knife, gyuto, whatever) and play with it; if you hate that, sell it online for 75% what you paid and chalk up the small difference to experience.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Tourist, I didn't mean "getten bitten by the sharpening bug" to mean anything negative. I have great respect (and quite a bit of jealousy) to people who can do things better than I. However, as we all know, once you get that almost-perfect edge for the first time, your collection of abrasives, jigs, machines, and knives--- keeps on growing and your wallet keeps on shrinking.... It's a slippery slope, and I'm at a stage now where I'll either get a monocrystaline diamond stone to keep my regular waterstones flat and for basic shaping, or look into a set of Shaptons. Either way it'll cost me.....


Herbman, my biggest fear for all cooks is the "dissapearing" knife. I've seen fistfights, locker room brawls, co-erced dumpseter diving, and garbage bag slashing--all because a knife was lost. If you work in a small place where everyone knows everyone else, the odds of a decent knife "dissapearing" are almost "0". So feel free to go more expensive if you want to. However...You need to work with a workhorse before you can appreciate a thoroughbred

Just start fooling around on Youtube looking for "sharpening" videos. The CIA (uh.. Culinary Inst. of A.) has a good book out all dealing with knives, and your library should have books about sharpening too. You'll find alot of these books in the woodworking section, and you will find sharpening supplies in high-quality woodworker's stores, as well as knife merchants.

The two most important things about sharpening, and what everyone can agree on is this:

1) The bevel, or angle at which both sides of the blade meet is very important, different angles for different knives and purposes, and different materials, This angle must be maintained.

2) Always use the finest grit posible for a durable edge. You must use succesive finer grits to get to the finest, each finer grit will remove the last grit's scratch marks. Most pros go as high as 8 -12,000 grit, and some as high as 30,000. Such a high grit will give a mirror polish, which is a smooth surface. Coarser grits will leave scratches, and it is these scratches that weaken and fatigue the edge prematurely.

If you are going to fool around with sharpening, it pays to get a cheap jewler's loupe, a 30X, to actually see what you're doing.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, there we can agree.:lol: After I realized that I had invested about +$4K in sharpening equipment I quit counting! It could be double that by now. But let me give you an example on how this translates into business opportunities with chefs.

In about one month a folder called the Boker Plus G4 is going to roll out. I have an order in to my supplier, and I will pay about 13 bucks per unit. From those, I will sharpen a few test "mules." When I meet a chef--and I want to impress him--I'll give him the knife and a business card. It sure beats a cheap ballpoint pen printed up with my phone number and a witty slogan...

The chef will play with the new toy, slice a few things, and 'boing' a lightbulb will go off in his head that my gift is sharper than his complete roll of knives. That opens the door. But to keep him as a client I have to sharpen and polish each and every knife he tosses on the table--including the broken stuff. Some tools I only use once or twice per year.

No, I have a Harley for that...


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah you are right I should get a crap chef knife to practice sharpening on for now.

As I said earlier theft is not a problem and I am the only one in the kitchen and get help from my dad if needs be. Other workers are family so heh I don't think they are gonna steal from me.

Thanks for the replies as I said I am green in these area. I always worked with cheap knives and I never sharpened them properly.

One last question to you guys. What do you think about Shun knives? I mean they caught my eye and yes I know they are expensive. And as I said I can never try holding different knives in my hand as were I am from no body sells good quality knives. So my last question is Are Shun - Good - Durable and Comfortable?(I kno it has to be me to know but I can't so I will let you guys guide me)

Thanks for all the replies was really really helpful.

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Shun is an example of Japan laminate steels and their traditional shapes. In other words, one of many Japanese knives.

As stated, go to www.japanwoodworker.com (and that's just one of many examples) and you will find numerous knives constructed in this manner at cheaper prices. And you can order there by telephone.

Personally, I sharpened two Shun santokus last week, and I still like my wife's smaller Hattori gyuto better.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Hey sorry for late reply been really busy. Well I been thinkin about it and I also have been watching some videos on youtube about sharpening.

I am going for Shun knives and I also found some on ebay new for sale. Just to make sure do you guys know if the ones on ebay are original? I dont know if they produce any fakes. 

BTW what is the difference between a diamond steel and a wetstone?

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## rbrosseau (Jan 19, 2009)

Congrats on the choice of knife. Like I mentioned before, I have the Kai knives and I think they are great, the Shun can only be that much better.

A diamond steel is essentially a honing rod made of a smooth steel road and coasted in industrial diamonds (example A Amazon.com: Shun Combination Whetstone Model DM0600 1000/6000 grit.: Kitchen & Dining) instead of the fine grooves found on most (example B Amazon.com: Wüsthof 10-Inch Sharpening Steel: Kitchen & Dining). A ceramic "steel" is the same device made of ceramic rod. I think you will find that most people on here will recommend not using a steel of any sort on a Japanese knife. I have the white mac ceramic steel (Example C Amazon.com: MAC brand Ceramic Knife Sharpener #SR85: Home & Garden it does a fine job on my blades. Just remember that a steel does not sharpen, it hones. A good video is the Alton Brown videos from the shun website. It explains a lot of this in plane english. Or try to look on you tube for Alton Brown's show Good Eats, there is an episode about knives

A whetstone is a sharpening stone that uses water as a lubricant rather than an oil (example D Amazon.com: Shun Combination Whetstone Model DM0600 1000/6000 grit.: Kitchen & Dining.) Most Japanese knives makers will offer a corresponding whetstone. YOu can really buy any whetstone that you like, and most major manufacturers offer them . The standard from what i can find is KING brand. They can be found easily on Amazon. Another place that sells whetstones is Lee Valley Tools - Woodworking Tools, Gardening Tools, Hardware

For a beginner, don't be afraid to simply follow the recommended sharpening by the manufacturer of the knife you buy. Getting nuts about sharpening isn't a bad thing, it is just not a necessity for your job as a cook. Maintain them as best as you can and you will get to be a sharpening guru in time. The sharpest knife in the world, although really really cool, is only going to improve your cooking maybe 1%.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Hey rbro thanks for the reply and yeah the knife doesnt have anything to do with the cooking. 

BTW rbro is it possible for you to link me the starting stuff(from Shun web) I need to buy for ex 3 starting knives(paring, chef,boning - these were recommended in the above posts) + wet stones + steel, etc like a small list if it is always possible for you. If it is a problem don't bother.

The replys were really helpful I literally had no idea about knives and sharpening.

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Perhaps not for the actual cooking, but I believe the knife serves for three key points.

First is simply the ease in which food is prepared by your staff, and you can see that in catering. If you're fighting a poor knife for many hours against a deadline, you may wind up a victim of carpal tunnel syndrome.

Second, you should consider portion size and profits. In watching a sous-chef block out a section of beef, he made more precise slices and may have garnered a few more servings with less waste. More servings, more profit.

The last is presentation. You obviously have watched servers steel a carving implement when serving prime rib, and it demonstrates care. However with sushi, tight rolls and even slices relate to presentation.

In a business where mere color and the style of plate add to the experience, the "construction" of the food is a major factor.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

All water stones are whetstones but not all whetstones are water stones. A whetstone is simply a flat stone used for sharpening or "whetting," a blade. In other words, it's a sharpening stone. There are many different kinds of sharpening stones -- if you want to get into a discussion of freehand sharpening on stones, it's a good idea to start a separate thread.

As The Tourist said, a "diamond steel" is usually a rod hone with industrial diamonds fixed to it in one way or another. "Usually" in that a couple of manufacturers refer to their grooving pattern as "diamond," even though there are no actual diamonds.

My general recommendation is to avoid diamond steels or any steels with an aggressive pattern for kitchen knives. While these types of rod hones will develop a very sharp, micro-serrated edge quickly, the rod's geometry puts so much pressure on the blade that any variation in angle or pressure creates an uneven edge. 

If you haven't already purchased, I'd avoid Shun chef's knives. They have a really lousy topline that nets a really high tip. It's very inconvenient for a lot of cutting. Their other profiles aren't as bad. On the whole, Shuns are medium value for money. In almost every profile, there are less expensive, better, Japanese knives. 

Also, regarding Shun, there are a lot of different sorts of Japanese laminated steel blades (to use The Tourist's description). Most Shuns, including almost certainly, any of the lines you're looking at, have a core of VG-10 stainless steel (good stuff), covered on both sides by a very soft layer of a "damascus" look steel (called suminagashi in Japanese). Despire Shun's ad copy the suminagashi serves no practical purpose -- it is not at all "non-stick," for instance. On the other hand, Shun's version of the cladding is very soft and the design is very delicate. It will scratch and disappear quickly; but cannot be brought back by mere buffing. 

Finally, I suggest having a definite plan on how you're going to keep your knives sharp. If you're using your chef's knive heavily for a log shift of restaurant prep you're going to need to sharpen AT LEAST every week. 

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Actually, I didn't. The quote came from rbrosseau. I believe a diamond belongs on a woman's finger, not on sharpening devices.

(Oh, you might need a fine diamond 'stone' to sharpen those ionfusin Buck knives and those multi-colored salon scissors. That plating can go Rc 80. Nothing else really needs it.)

Many of you have seen the Alton Brown Shun knife tutorial on his website. Humorous and great info. If you have not seen it, I recommend it. (I also recommend the video "Live By It" on youtube, but I digress.)

Alton had two large knves made fron foam rubber. For my scenario, imagine those knives made of modeling clay. Now imagine a kid's sandbox rake clawing the edge to sharpen one. That's what a real knife looks like sharpened by a diamond under a well lit magnifying loupe.

Great for an ice auger, but not so good for a knife you actually want to keep.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The Tourist,

Sorry for conflating you with rbrousseau. Careless of me. On the other hand, you could have been conflated with far worse. 

As long as A. B. came up, it should be mentioned that Alton Brown has a commercial arrangement with Shun knives. He's paid to say nice things about them. Shun Classic are good knives in the same way that Wusthoff Classics are good knives. They're well finished and will perform reasonably for a long time, with good maintenance. On the other hand, there are far better for the same money. Also, as I said before, the Shuns (from the Kershaw series) have that extremely high point. That means getting the handle up at some very weird angles in order accomplish every day tasks like scoring an onion before dicing it. That's a deal breaker for me. Some people just love 'em, of course. But in my experience they're comparing Shuns to western manufactured knifes -- and because the Shuns are lighter, and be made much sharper, and are more agile the Shuns are superior. But compared to a good Japanese knife, not so much. 

Kitchen knife hobbyists (which pretty much means Japanese kitchen knives these days) seem almost angry at Shun. 

Personally, I think the Shun western style boning knife is a nice knife as long as you're happy with the handle, and don't mind the suminagashi pattern fading. The boning knife is one of the very few (perhaps the only) European pattern "desosseurs" available in VG-10. It's the only knife from Shun's Kershaw design series I'd consider recommending. 

That said, few people have a clue as to what a boning knife is actually supposed to do, nor how to do it -- so I don't recommend it often.

I think the best value in high quality, stainless knives for professional use are MAC Pro, Togiharu VG, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, and Hirmoto G. You might want to thrown Misono Moly in there for the great handle -- but the steel isn't at quite the same level as the others. 

BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think _Kasumi_ (the brand) and _Ran_ also make Western-pattern boning knives that are shaped almost exactly like the Shun. I believe Tourist is a reseller for the latter, and I recall him praising them in any event. IMO BDL hits it on the head- the Shuns are good knives but shape of their chef's knife leaves a lot to be desired vs the typical gyuto.

Also, I don't know if you've purchased them yet, but if you buy them from eBay you'd be wise to stick with a seller with good feedback. I dunno if there are fake Shuns out there but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Better still would be to buy from a reputable vendor like ChefKnivesToGo or CutleryAndMore. Both offer free shipping and very competitive prices. The former carries a tremendous range of other J-knives, too.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Oh, it was of no concern. But imagine how he feels being conflated with me. Probably the biggest insult the man has endured.:lol:

Well, technically I rep for every item in the Blue Ridge Knife catalog (over one inch thick), I also hawk JWW, and I've even sold a dozen Edge Pro fixtures and a heaping helping of Ben's glass mounts. (Which I wrestled him into producing.)

But while that is true, I carry Strider and Emerson knives--which I don't sell--and I personally use Hattori knives, and I don't cook. I ride. In the final analysis I think most folks should separate the person they are from the work they do.

Well, lots of folks hate the NY Yankees, as well. As for the Shuns, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the tools of a professional chef and a serious food hobbyist need to work in conjunction with the men who sell and service them. Let's pretend that you hate Shun, but you are my next door neighbor. I'll bet I could make you a deal that your opinions would change if I prepared every Shun you used *to your exacting specifications*.

You might be reluctant, but I know it happens. But I live in Wisconsin, and I can verify that the quarterback we used to love and revere is now the most hated guy in football.

Sadly that is true. Like any other item, the best performance is shared by educated consumers.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Mr. Favre is a lucky man! He finally saw the light and is saved. It's ironic that it took him so many years to finally land on the best team in the NFL!


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"I am going for Shun knives and I also found some on ebay new for sale. Just to make sure do you guys know if the ones on ebay are original? I dont know if they produce any fakes"

I would think long and hard before buying knives on eBay. There are many fakes sold there. Global has an entire page of eBay fakes on their Euro web site. I'm not a Shun fan. I just do not care for the handles or that cheesy Damascus cladding on some of their products. I find them a pain to sharpen. In either event if you do opt for Shun be sure to check Amazon. Their prices are often lower, they have an incredibly good return policy and the freight is often free!
I'm sure you will get a lot of varying opinions any time you get brand specific.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

That could just be from the center layer of VG-10. Consider this.

Many sporting knives are made from VG-10, and sporting goods stores sharpen them. And there are many other companies, like Yaxell Ran, that use even more layers than Shun in their construction.

This could be a good example on where we think outside the box. Perhaps the best stone needed for a Shun is not a traditional waterstone, but the stone you use for the knives to field dress deer and elk.

Here's an example. I like mirror finishes on the bevels I produce for kitchen knives. In fact, mine gleam.

I do this for two reasons. One, they 'slip' easier through the medium they are asked to slice. Two, if the bevel is devoid of tool marks, so is the very edge.

When I sought out things like pastes and pumice, I contacted outlets that specialized in "knife stuff." I went the route of chromium oxide and traditional nagura. And while I still use nagura pumice for some stones, I no longer polish with traditional pastes.

For automotive use, there is no better polish than that produced by a company called "Mothers." So I bought two cans of there paste. One, 'Mag Wheel Paste' I use for buffing jackknives and general kitchen knives.

Ahh, but for perfection like on an Hattori, i use *Mothers Billet Paste*.

I first printed this in a traditional knife forum. Talk about being branded a heretic--that is, until they tried it.

I think the same deal here exists for Shun's use of VG-10. I routinely sharpen sporting knives made from S30V, with several of them HT from master Paul Bos.

Approach this sharpening task as you would for any other type of edge.


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## rbrosseau (Jan 19, 2009)

Sure thing Herbman,

I would stay with the Shun Classic series, the other models they offer are more gimmicky than useful. Especially the Ken Onion stuff.

This is their utility/ petty knife. This will actually do most boning and paring jobs for you. I would only get a true boning knife if you suspect you will do a lot of boning. KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the boning knife, again if you do alot of boning this may be more convienient. It may also have a more flexible blade than the utility. But it is no good for just about any other job. KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the 10" Chef knife, (if you prefer the 8" the model number is DM0706), KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the bread knife. Unless a matched set is important to you I feel this knife is overpriced for what you get and that the Mac 
(Amazon.com: MAC Carving or Bread Knife (#SB105): Home & Garden) is a better choice, KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the regular paring knife. I've been cooking for 3 years and I haven't touched my paring knife since chef school. So I would say this knife is optional unless you know you will use it for sure especially since its $75: KAI USA : Shun Product Details

As far as sharpening is concerned this stone by Shun will do everything you need it to do. In fact if you can find separate stones with the same grit for a better price than get that instead: KAI USA : Shun Product Details

If you want to get a steel then I wouldn't recommend shun steel. It's grooved surface can be hard on the thin Japanese blades. I would get a Mac ceramic, the newer black one. They are priced right and work well. You would use this during your shift to maintain your edge and then sharpen when necessary on your stones. Amazon.com: MAC Ceramic Black Honing Rod #SRB103: Home & Garden

Also assuming that you are buying online, now that you have a list of model numbers that you want, search for the best prices. Amazon.com seems to be the best priced for Shun and Mac. If you want to stay with a Shun/Kai product and save some cash on a few pieces, check out their "SEKI MAGOROKU" line. As i mentioined before I have 3 of them and they are really good knives for the money and they are made by kai which is the company that makes shun. They are available from Amazon. You can also find tons of sharpening stones on Amazon. If you want to check this stuff out in person, williams-sonoma sells the shun stuff. And although I forget his name, the guy at Mac USA will give you any information you want about his stuff by phone MAC Knife Inc. USA they are pretty good to deal with.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Tourist,

I disagree with you about the VG-10 issue and Shuns. I've not seen many people who seriously know what they're talking about -- including you -- say bad things about VG-10. What many such people -- including BDL -- dislike is Shun knives, and NOT because of the VG-10.

BDL dislikes the shape in the gyuto, and I've seen others agree with him on that. I haven't used one, and can't really comment, but visually at least I see what he's talking about and am suspicious there.

But on the damascus/suminagashi cladding, I am entirely in agreement with BDL. It's pretty if you like that sort of thing, which I don't, but that's pure aesthetics. It does nothing whatsoever for the cutting or maintenance. And it wears off, raising the question of why you'd pay for it in the first place. I'd rather have a VG-10 knife without the silly cladding, myself, or for that matter a high-end carbon steel knife without the silly cladding.

As to people trashing Shun in a vaguely zombie-cult-like way, which BDL also refers to, that's different. Some do it because the supposedly "hot" expert types trash them, and folks want to be thought clever and in the know (and want to think of themselves that way too). Some do it because Shun is mass-market, and that's intrinsically uncool. But some do it because of irritating things like damascus cladding, weird knife shapes, and gimmickry like the Ken Onion knives.

Let's face it, you like them or you don't. But the serious objections aren't because it some sort of "heresy" to use VG-10.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris, if I was to make my own line of knives they might indeed be hammered and folded, but they would be made out of ZDP-189, and every one of them would be sent to Paul Bos.

A knife is for slicing. As that relates to this forum, that means wet and salty things, and an edge that doesn't let you down at the worst possible times.

ZDP-189 is iron, chrome and carbon. That's it. It has so much chrome, in fact, that in Dane County Wisconsin it can be legally classified as a truck bumper.

It's hard as nails, polishes like a mirror and sharpens fairly easily. Yeah, I like VG-10, but I also like S30V and the Graham Brothers are now using CPM-154CM. My opinion is that you don't take one alloy and make it work for every implement, compromising as you go.

Several of my EDC knives are old, boring 440C, and they are perfect for the jobs I subject them to.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

If you don't like cladding you're going to have an issue with a lot more makers than Kershaw! Nearly all of the most popular makers all use saminigashi cladding for their best selling lines: Hattori's HD, Shun, Kasumi, Tanaka...even Hattori's top-of-the-line knife, the KD, is clad. I suspect they all do this for two reasons- people like the look and the steel they use to clad them with is much cheaper than the steel they use for the hagane. After all, even the knives that aren't "damascus" are often still clad (eg Tojiro DP, Himomoto AS, etc).


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Other than a preference, I'm not even sure the difference relates to actual use. Oh, I've seen small sections of a knife "delaminate." It looks like tiny pieces of thin aluminum foil jut out from the edge of the blade. A careful buff removes them.

As for having the knife fly apart like exploding plywood, I've never even heard of that. Then again I'm not stupid enough to subject a laminate knife to continuous, firm and heated exposure to an over-aggressive mechanized sharpening wheel. I don't haul gravel in a Corvette, either.

As for performance, I once took a rather mundane clad santoku to a local Ginza chain restaurant and had the chef cook our dinner "in the round." He used the knife for the entire preparation, and it was sharper--and stayed sharper--than the knives provided by the chain. The edge required a light buff to bring it back from being dragged on a hot metal grill.

More to the point, I believe the more important issue is defining just what are the clad layers. As we have discussed, VG-10 is pretty good.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't care for san-mai/warikomi knives generally, it's true. By reporting my dislike, I'm not asking for agreement or implying that many others do or should share the opinion. In fact, I would bother mentioning it, but the few people I know who share it have outstanding knife technique. This obviously includes a few of the more obvious contributors at Fred's. IIRC, I was the first person to mention it and K.C. Ma jumped on it like white on rice.

There's a lot suminagashi coming in to the western market (is it popular in Japan?) and something like 99% is cladded. Some excellent knives among them. Will I, personally, like any of them? Probably not.

Yes. Quite a few people like the looks of them. A lot of people confuse them with "damascus," which is something else.

It's only indirectly about the cost of the steel. But the cost of manufacturing "honyaki" knives which won't fail during their manufacture or shortly afterwards is prohibitive; and, of course, it's completely impractical to make a two layer (ni-mai?) "kasumi" knife with a two-sided bevel.

I've had some experience with many of the knives mentioned -- both suminagashi and plain. And, actually owned a few Hiromoto AS. I gave the Hiromotos away, even though they're "better" in so many ways -- weight, agility, edge holding, to name a few -- than the knives I kept, because of their _relatively_ "dead" feeling in the cut.

No matter what I think about most san-mai a lot of people like it. Which is fine. The biggest problem with a Shun suminagashi warikomi chef's knife is not so much that it's warikomi, but that the suminagashi is very fragile. Shuns scratch very easily and the pattern fades quickly. The biggest problem is the (chef's) knife's crummy profile.

Look, they're just knives, not nuclear submarines. Writing about them on a forum such as this is all about hooking someone up with a knife (s)he will enjoy using and is able to get and keep sharp. My block and bar are mostly filled with old/antique, French carbons which suit me just fine. I sharpen on Arkansas stones. However, I don't recommend carbon Sabatiers or Arks to many people. In other words, I try to consider the questioner's needs rather than validate my own decisions and desires; and consider invidual suitability to be more important than a knife which brings a set of wonderful _objective_ attributes, but won't be maintained.

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Ever talk to a chef who has just bounced his favorite gyuto off of a concrete floor? Tell him to 'wait' and he darn near has a coronary!

Next time you walk past a pristine Harley, ask the owner, "Is that a Gold Wing?"

If it's one thing I've learned since my hair went gray is that people have some really bizarre attachments to inanimate objects.:lol:


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, it's not practical from a financial aspect to make honyaki knives out of ZDP or Cowry X. 

You're one of the few guys I know of on the forums that feels that clad knives feel "dead"- KCMA is one of the others. That narrows a persons options a bit just because so many knives are clad. Obviously if you prefer carbon there's no problem, but if you require stainless there aren't as many (unless you count German ones, but they're way more dead feeling than any clad J-knife!).

But there are a few. The Hattori forum knives are solid VG-10, and I can think of a few other makers that go that route. I think the JCK original brand they sell is solid VG-1, IIRC.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Hey guys long time no talk.. realy sorry but been really busy and didn have time to pop on.

Well one thing we cook at our place is whole roast pork for groups so I will sure need a boning knife.

I been reading all the posts and 1 thing I noticed is that some dislike shuns and well you recomended other knives. Now I am really confused.

What do you think I should do?
Can you recommend me 3 brands(from 1-3 -- 1 being the best)

This week I will order them for sure cause I didnt have time last week heh and thank god cause I just found all these posts and I am getting confused.

Really sorry about this but as I stated earlier I can only buy them of the net so in a way its like you are buying them for me.

BTW which and what type of boning knife is best for a whole roast pork(size - flexi/notFlexi .. etc)

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"What do you think I should do?"

Don't take absolute advice from any one regarding brand. Every one has their own favorite for their own reasons. That does not mean you will like the same product.
Get to a store where you can handle some knives in person or order more than one brand and return what you do not like. How a knife balances and feels in YOUR hand is more important than all of the internet pontification combined. In regards to cladding take a close look at how poorly Shun finishes their product by the edge. Some of the other brands may well be clad but I suspect most would never even know because they are finished much better. It's not that Shun is a "bad" product there is just a lot of other options that offer better value IMO. 
Here's one good example (scroll to the bottom of the page). Solid VG-10 WA Gyuto $130.

KAGAYAKI VG-10 Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

"Can you recommend me 3 brands(from 1-3 -- 1 being the best)"

Good luck with that. I've been using Wusthof knives for over 30 years in professional kitchens and if you listen to many on the internet you might think they are the red headed step child of all knives yet I see more of them than many other brands combined. If you are buying work knives remember that buying some knives can be an open invitation to theft. This may not be an issue where you are now but it might be at your next job. Consider that before you pursue "The Best".


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm glad you wrote that. Not only from the standpoint of that particular alloy, but for its concept.

Right now we have Hattori knives that go for over $2K, and sold right over the 'net. If you ever go to Chef Morimoto's website you'll see that some of his kitchen knives go for over $3K.

And for informational reasons only (and I don't mean to sound snooty), most of the Strider and Graham pocketknives I carry are over 400 bucks.

My point is this. A chef or a serious home hobbyist is in the same boat I am in as a regular Mountain Dew chuggin' kind of guy. A fifty buck folder is a knife I carry when "I don't want to mangle the good stuff."

If cooking is a passion, and I believe this forum is aimed at very serious people, at least one knife in your roll should be of the 500 to 1,000 dollar quality.

Don't scoff at first. Many guys have a Leupold scope in this price range on their once-per-year deer rifles. I bought a rear wheel for my bike last winter that cost more than that.

And consider this. I keep the receipts for all of my sharpening tools and service costs for my business taxes. I would hope that if a professional chef bought a KD series Hattori he would happily include it for business purposes.

Please don't consider this a slap or a snide comment. But if we are devoted to a discussion with a professional slant then at some point we have to abandon the poor quality tools.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

(This may be a digression, so if so we should start another thread....)

In principle, I suppose I agree with you, Chico, but in practice I don't.

I certainly agree that a serious cook, professional or otherwise, should use tools of a very high standard. I certainly agree that when you consider what one pays for pots and pans, auto equipment or its equivalent, computers, and so on like that, $500 or more for a truly excellent-quality tool is not at all unreasonable.

But...

I do not believe for an instant that the overwhelming majority of high-quality food in America would be improved as food by superlative knives. There are not all that many professional or home cooks whose knife skills are really up to the grade of their knives. It's been mentioned many times that culinary students rarely learn anything much about sharpening. But it's also worth noting that not many culinary students learn a whole lot about knife skills. Most experienced professionals have learned largely by doing, and have little to gain by trying wildly new things.

For example, let's suppose I hand the average experienced professional a perfectly-sharpened honyaki yanagiba and say "go to it!" What's she going to do? She's probably never held a thing like that, doesn't know what sort of grip or technique goes with it, and frankly she probably doesn't cut a whole lot of raw fish anyway, which is all that knife is really designed for. What use is it to her? And when it turns out that if she misuses it even slightly, or in fact uses it correctly for even a few shifts, she has to sharpen it on finishing stones she doesn't own and doesn't know how to use, what's the point? Will the food she puts out be improved by this knife? No.

Okay, how about a deba? Nope. She probably learned to fillet fish with a French-style filleting knife, and so she won't have the faintest idea how this thick block of steel is supposed to work -- it's just a totally different skill. Who's going to teach her? Why should she bother to learn? In what set of circumstances will the roasted cod dish her guests love be improved significantly by her learning to use a deba?

Usuba? You gotta be kidding me. It'll be six months before she can use it as well as her favorite chef's knife, and in the meantime she'll chip and roll that edge about 100 times. Besides, since she can't use it for any meat, and keeps reaching for that chef's knife, why should she add to her headache?

So the ONLY knife worth considering here is a high-grade gyuto.

Suppose you hand your average experienced professional a perfectly-sharpened Tojiro, a Masamoto-KS, and a honyaki Hattori -- $150, $300, and roughly $750, respectively. At the end of a few long shifts, which one will have served him best? All of them, really. They're all wonderful knives. All will need sharpening, of course, and not steeling. Okay, so he's got to learn that skill, because he's sure as heck not going to pay you to do it every few days. And that means buying stones, too, which is not so cheap.

Now ask this same chef to consider whether he'd like to invest in one of these or go with something like a Wusthof. What's the answer?

I suspect it depends on the chef. The Wusthof requires less maintenance and fewer new skills, and there is no associated setup cost in stones and the like. He can just steel the thing and have you sharpen it every 6 months, and that's fine. The problem with the Wusthof (or similar) is that it's pretty fat-bladed and weighs a ton, making it difficult to do very delicate precision work. So the first question the chef has to answer is this:

_Does my menu gain enough because of the potential for greater cutting precision to make up for the higher maintenance cost of the Tojiro?_

I think in most Western kitchens, the answer is "No."

Now if by some chance the answer is yes, there's a second question:

_Does my menu gain enough because of the difference between the Tojiro and the Hattori to justify the vast difference in price?_

Again, probably "No."

The exception is the chef who requires a very high level of precision in every cut, likely because his menu is extremely high-end and involves a good deal of raw fish. For that chef, all the associated costs are trivial: he must have tools that will do what he needs them to do. But does he need super-expensive honyaki knives?

I discussed this with a very, very high-end kaiseki chef in Kyoto, actually. He buys honyaki yanagiba, always. But other than that he never buys honyaki: he buys the highest grades of kasumi. Why? Because he finds that a just-sharpened knife is not ideal for cutting sashimi: there is an inevitable hint of roughness and metal. Because a honyaki knife will hold its edge longer, he can use a honyaki yanagiba throughout a full shift and not need to resharpen, whereas if he used kasumi he'd have to resharpen somewhere along the line and then some slices wouldn't be perfect. But this problem does not obtain with an usuba or deba, so he doesn't need honyaki and won't shell out the extra cash for it. Why should he? He gets perfection without it.

In short, I think that the quality of the knife is an entirely practical decision if we're talking about what people _should_ do. If you _like_ pretty knives and such, that's a different matter, and that's where people get into suminagashi-cladding and funny handles and all that jazz. But as far as what any cook _should_ buy, it's a question of how much you need to spend to achieve the ends you have in mind. And for almost everybody, professional or otherwise, that does not require super-expensive knives.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

So Chris what Brand do you think I should go for?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Best European Style (Desosseur) Boning knives (in alphabetical order):

Dexter Russell -- What I'm going to say about Forschner. The professional butcher's other first choice.

Elephant Sabatier carbon.

Forschner Fibrox or Rosewood -- Easy knives to sharpen, if not particularly easy to keep sharp. Tremendous selection of styles and flexes. I personally prefer the Rosewood to the Fribrox (plastic), but Fibrox can be sanitized, is more popular with inspectors, has a surer grip with gloves, and most people find the grip more secure in general. Reasonably priced. The professional butcher's first choice. 

Global, if you can deal with the handle -- some people find them slippery. 

K Sabatier carbon.

MAC, with the plastic handle. 

Shun, if you don't care about how long the "damascus" lasts -- because it will scratch and fade fairly quickly. However, none of my other objections apply to the Shun boning knife -- other than that I'm not a fan of the handle.


Second Tier: Top end boners from the "German" makers including Wusthof, Henkels, Lamson (American), Viking (not sure where they're made), F. Dick, Messermeister, etc. All of these are made from one of the same two alloys; they're all good knives, and there's not much to choose between excelpt handle feel.

Top end stainless Sabatiers -- Elephant, K-Sab, V-Sab, and a few others. Everything that's true of the high-end Germans is true of the high-end French, except that they use a third type of stainless and don't harden quite as much. 

As to all of these, you'll get as much, if not more performance, from a Forschner or Dexter. 


Best Japanese Profiled Knife for Boning out Roasts:

Masamoto CT (carbon) Honkotsu, and Misono Sweden (carbon) Honkotsu. Not much to choose between, really. Excellent knives if you can deal with the fat handles and the slightly unusual profiles.


Other Japanese boning profiles:

My advice is to avoid Honesuki and Garasukis if you were considering them. Their principle use is for hacking through small bones like chicken ribs -- they were not designed for "boning out." Not to say that you can't do the job with one -- after all, almost any knife task can be done farily well with almost any sharp knife. But they don't follow the curve of a bone as easily as the more slender styles because they're too wide to turn in the cut. Also, garasukis are ridiculously stiff and heavy for the task.

If you're into Japanese knives in a big way, consider any 6" petty. They'll do the same job as a desosseur, and you can get your favorite manufacturer or particular steel or whatever. 


I use an Elephant Sabatier carbon. If I were buying today, I'd either buy one of the carbon Sabs, or a Masamoto or Misono honkotsu. I don't recommend carbon to many people, it's something you'll have to consider. The primary benefit is that it sharpens much easier. The drawback is that it requires a little extra care.

If I couldn't buy one of the carbons, my next choice would probably be Forschner. 

The MAC might be the best knife of the bunch, except that it's a little hard to sharpen -- comparatively. 

The Global's quite nice, but a lot of people have trouble with the handles. It has some sharpening issues as well. Outstanding balance, if that matters to you.

The Shun gets quite sharp and holds its edge well. I don't care for the D shape handle, but that's a matter of taste. It's also the only substantive criticism I have of this knife. Excellent piece of cutlery.

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree. And I think the discussion is going to be tremendous fun.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Pardon me for jumping in to answer a question addressed to Chris, but ...

Are we talking about a western handled gyuto, or a Japanese handled gyuto?

Do you need a stiff knife, or can you live with a little flexibility?

Would you consider a highly asymmetric bevel (can't be steeled), or do you like using a steel for maintenance? (Even though an asymmetric bevel can be made slightly sharper, I'd choose one even enough to steel -- at least for my chef's knife. My feeling is that the extra bit of performance you get from a freshly sharpened asymmetric bevel isn't worth the inconvenience of having to constantly "touch up" on a waterstone, versus the relative convenience of steeling. But that's me.) 

Are you a good sharpener yet? Do you have a complete set of waterstones? Are you willing to spend the time and money it takes to become a good sharpener? There's just no way around this for a good knife in a pro environment. Otherwise, you're throwing your money away. Any dull knife is a dull knife. It doesn't matter how much it costs, how exotic the alloy, how good the handle. Dull is dull.

BDL


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

Yep I am willing to spend money to learn etc.

So if you had to recommend 3 good brands which would you recommend

Your choice


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"As to all of these, you'll get as much, if not more performance, from a Forschner or Dexter"

Exactly! This is where some one who has to ask for advice should be starting IMO.
The talk about $1,000 knives is interesting but not very likely to be of much help to the OP. I think we all need to remember there is a difference between a cook and a chef, what they can afford and how secure their tools will be. Until any one knows exactly what they want in a knife they probably should not be spending the big bucks thinking that it will be "better" than a good working knife.
boar_ d_ laize I don't know about all of the Viking knives but their bread knife is made by Guede.

"BTW which and what type of boning knife is best for a whole roast pork(size - flexi/notFlexi .. etc"

Like any thing your bound to get a variety of opinions but I use my stiff boning knife about 100X more than the flexible one. I've had both (Wusthof) in my box for many years. I do have some Globals and they are nice but more time consuming to sharpen. I like the handles better than Shun but neither are my favorite.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Perhaps in the discussion of a particular price, but I believe the overall idea is good.

For example, did you ever have to struggle with a nut and bolt that has been "rounded off"? It comes from an open end wrench, a poorly set adjustable, or a worn 12-point socket. In other words, average wrenches.

But hand an apprentice a six-point deep-well, or a box end and the problem usually solves itself.

Many newbies "saw" with cheap dull knives or examples that their head chef doesn't feel are worth the expense of sharpening. The entry level cook crushes tomatoes, cuts himself and struggles with his craft.

My opinion is to get him a better knife, teach him to steel, never let him push a knife until it is totally dull and instruct him on how to wash and maintain it.

That's pretty much what I meant. And a "better knife" is usually a few hundred bucks.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

K guys I'm of to work again cya tonight or tomorow ... hehe do reply if you get the chance about my question asked earlier. And sorry but as you all noticed I aint that good when it comes to knives and sharpening but I will learn.

Thanks,
TheHerb.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Assuming you want a regular western handle, and you want a stainless knife...

_Top Three_:

MAC Pro, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, Hiromoto Gingami no. 3.

MAC Pro combines the best features of Japanese knives and western knives at a reasonable price. By Japanese standards it's extremely stiff, something most western cooks really like. It gets very sharp easily, much sharper than you could get any Wusthof. MAC knives have excellent handles, some of the very best in the business -- and as these go the MAC Pro is among their best. MAC doesn't publicize which steel goes into which knife, although they do say the Pro series uses a higher does of moly and vanadium than their lesser lines. Although an expert sharpener using really top flight stones, could get a better edge on knives made with more exotic steels. The knife his hardened to around HrC 59.

The knife is considerably lighter and handles much better than any mass-produced western manufactured knife. If you keep the factory bevel (symmetric 50/50 at a flat 15*) the knife can easily be maintained on a good rod hone (aka "steel).

The Grand Cheff is more Japanese feeling than the MAC. Slightly lighter and considerably more flexible, but not as flexible as a lot of other Japanese knives. The GC is made with Swedish "strip steel" (made for razor blades) and takes an unbelievably good edge. Better even than the MAC. It's only hardened to HrC 58 though. Like the MAC, if appropriately beveled, it can be maintained on a steel. Same steel and stone recommendations, btw.

Hiromoto G3. I like a lot of things about this knife. As with other Hirmotos, great prices considering the quality of the steel used. This is the most Japanese feeling of the three. It's a very agile knife, very lively, very communicative. It sharpens as well as any exotic stainless steel, and better than amost anything else. The knife is hardened to around HrC, which means you can use a steel if the knife is appropriately beveled -- but it's got to be an appropriate steel and has to be used well (no clanging!). However it's got a fairly slender handle. As I recall, you have large hands. I have big paws as well, and don't have hany problem at all with the Hiromoto. That said, I use a very soft pinch grip. You might find the handles problematic.

_Not recommeded, but also very good_:

Misono UX-10. It's an extremely good knife with possibly the best handle anywhere ever. But it's a bit on the whippy side and pretty hard to sharpen. It's also a bit pricey. If you have your heart set on it, don't let me talk you out of it -- you'll learn to sharpen.

Misono Moly is a nice knife -- just not as good as the MAC or Grand Cheff.

Masamoto VG. it's a lot of money for what it is, and also very whippy. BTW, I love Masamotos and if I were purchasing new western handled knives Masamoto carbons would be on the top of my list.

Togiharu. Togiharu's two top lines are essentially Masamoto clones. The stainless copies the VG, is less expensive, but not quite as nice in any way as the Masamoto.

Any carbon knives. I figure you don't want them. If you're at all interested in carbon, the list changes.

_Sharpening_:

For people just starting out, but already committed to waterstone sharpening the Naniwa Super series (with bases) is an excellent choice. I'd go 400, 1000, 5000, and 8000. I'd also flatten on dry wall screen rather than buying a super-coarse flattening stone.

The Idahone fine (12") is an excellent and inexpensive rod hone (aka a ceramic steel). The MAC black is too. The best value steel (made from steel) is the Forschner fine.

_Full disclosure_:

Of my most frequently used kitchen knives, nearly all are vintage carbon, from one Sabatier or another. They're sharpened with Norton coarse and fine India stones, and Hall's soft and surgical black Arkansas stones. They're steeled on a HandAmerican Borosilicate Glass rod, and on a thirty year old, well-worn Henkels extra fine steel (no longer made).

_Purchasing_:

You can get the MAC from a lot of sources. Check the net for best prices.

Sakai Takayuki is available through Seito Trading (online). You'll have to be specific about exactly which knive you want, since they don't show a wide selection on their website. You can see the entire line at the Sakai Takayuki website, ‚f‚'‚‚Ž‚„@‚b‚ˆ‚…‚†‚† You'll probably be choosing between the model 10013 and 10014.

You can find the Hirmoto G3 at Hiromoto Gingami No.3 Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com: 400px; HEIGHT: 182px

The best prices for a set of Naniwa Supers at Tools for Working Wood. Japanese Super-Stones by Naniwa at Tools for Working Wood

_One more thing_:

Japanese knives are manuractured in "Sun" rather than centimers or inches and the are sold on the international market in centimeters. The most common lengths are 210, 240 and 270cm. Roughly 8", 9-3/8" and 10-5/8". If you have a large enough station, the 10-5/8" will probably be most productive -- although it will take you a few weeks to learn to handle the extra length if you're used to an 8" knife.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"The entry level cook crushes tomatoes, cuts himself and struggles with his craft"

A more expensive knife will not change that. A sharper knife and better knife skills will. Most who are starting out and still learning to sharpen and perfecting their knife skills are better served with knives from brands like Mac, Wusthof, Forschner, F.Dick or others that are not overly expensive and can be found in many professional kitchens. 
I would suggest the OP spend some time on some of the dedicated knife forums like this one;

In the Kitchen (Topic list) - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Oh, I agree. But the sad reality is that a ten dollar knife is treated like a five dollar knife and a knife costing 100 bucks gets treated like gold.

And if an employee at any level--cook, sous-chef, chef--brings a good knife to work you can bet he watches over it.

I would like to add one thing here. Obviously I am not the spokesperson for my craft. (Heck, some in my craft don't even claim *me*). But every tinker and sharpener I know does pro bono work, be that for culinary students, subsistance hunters and charitable associations. Trust me, there are lots of folks who also share in the ideals that you and I believe in.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I agree. Unfortunately so does every one else. Almost every one gets a knife stolen or loses one at some point in a professional kitchen. I've had my office broke into and my entire box taken. 
Just for the record I'm not advocating $10 knives here. I just don't believe a cook needs to spend hundreds per knife to start. I hope we would both agree there is a lot of room in the middle. Today we have access to hundreds of knives from numerous makers all around the world thanks to the internet. There are some very good values out there from lesser known makers and there has been a lot of very good suggestions in this thread for the OP.


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## theherbman (Sep 1, 2009)

If I buy wusthof which series is best? Classic?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

The Classic is what you will typically see in professional kitchens. They have served me well over the years.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

(First, I'm sorry you've had some knives stolen. That casts a real *shadow* on our craft. If I can help you in correcting that condition, please PM me.)

Yes, of course, there is a middle ground. It goes back to the idea of "good, better, best." I remember the first jackknife I carried that cost over one hundred bucks. Yikes, I checked my pocket every ten minutes!

Perhaps we should stress the relationship of craftsman/professional for this debate.

For example, if your heater is about to give out right before winter, your contractor would be remiss if he didn't show you the wear and/or damage. Also, when you get your vehicle's oil changed and they spot a paper-thin brake pad, they notify you.

Same for me. As discussed, I (sometimes) carry appropriate samples and loaners. If the head chef and I work together, we might join forces to run a happier and more efficient kitchen. After a bit, we form a partnership.

And never forget, if you just hone and run you do not make yourself valuable to those professionals. "Problem solvers" get asked to come back.

Why should that be any different for home hobbyists and apprentice kitchen personnel? Help them in the right direction, suggest better tools, and they'll never forget you.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

All of their top of the line knives (you can tell by price) are made of the same steel, and are fundamentally similar. The Ikon and Le Cordon Bleu have slightly "Frenchified) different profiles, cut down bolsters (no finger guard on the choil) and are ground to a more acute bevel (which makes them act sharper).

Otherwise, the main difference between top Wusthof lines is the handle. Choose by whichever seems most comfortable to you. Personally, the the Classic/Le Cordon Bleu handle suits my soft, academically correct pinch grip and large hands better than the more "ergonomic" designs. But there's no best, it's just another "to each his own."

Wustofs (and other made with similar steel alloys) are very tough, in that they tend to bend more easily than they chip. But they do bend very easily at the edge -- which means that like other European knives they need a lot of steeling to maintain an edge. However, they also wear fairly quickly and require fairly frequent sharpening in order to remain sharp. On the positive side, you can sharpen with India and Arkansas stones which are less expensive and require less maintenance than comparable water stones.

If you absolutely, positively must have a Wusthof the best deal is unquestionably here: Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu - Wusthof Knives, Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu Knives, Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu Cutlery, Wusthof LCB Knives, Wusthof Grand Prix2, Wusthof Le Cordon Blue Knives, Wusthof Knives Le Cordon Bleu It's also one of the best knives Wusthof ever made.

For what it's worth, my advice, unless you absolutely, positively, etc., is to buy a decent quality Japanese knife. Don't get me wrong, Wusthof (and the better Geramns, Swiss, American, etc.) are good knives. Especially when it comes to "fit and finish." But the Japanese knives are just so much better from the blade steel standpoint. They sharpen as easily (providing you use appropriate tools), get much sharper, and stay sharper a lot longer.

Honestly, there's no comparison.

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I'd say that's subject to interpretation. Lets remember we are trying to help some one with no or minimal knife sharpening skills. Generally speaking the harder the steel the harder the knife is to sharpen. Especially for a beginner. Then there's that caveat of "providing you use appropriate tools" which adds more to the cost and more time for sharpening when it is required that a typical line cook does not have. A Euro knife like Wusthof or the sabatier that you are fond of may need a few seconds on a steel more often but that's fast and easy. German steel is a lot less prone to chipping Vs the harder Japanese steel and that's not something that should just be over looked in a working knife. Nearly every professional kitchen will have an oil stone and a steel for the cooks. If you need a special steel or water stones you will be buying your own and carrying them with you to work in most cases if you expect to sharpen your knife during your shift. The notion that ALL Japanese knives universally stay sharper longer certainly has not been my experience. A lot of that rides on the skill of the user. If the average cook does the same task for the same amount of time with a German knife Vs a Japaneses knife of comparable value they will both need to be sharpened in a fairly close time frame.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't know about the average cook. However, the proposition that a thick X45CrMo or X50CrMoV15 blade, hardened to C Rockwell of 56 or below, and sharpened to 20* bevels, will end a shift as sharp as a thin VG-10, G3, AEB-L, etc., blade, hardened to HrC of 59 and above, sharpened to 15* is not in keeping with my experience -- not by a long shot.

If you tell me that the "average [restaurant] cook" starts and ends his shift with a dull knife because (s)he either doesn't care enough lacks the skills or tools (in point of fact, even those kitchens which have sharpening stations tend not to maintain them -- the stones are usually clogged with rancid cooking oil and years of swarf) to sharpen properly, then... Yes. Even the best knife is no better than a beater in that all dull knives are equal.

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't think there's any thing factual if relevant about that. It doesn't take a lot of motivation to clean the station and change the oil. 
The notion that all Japanese steels sharpen as "easily" as the Wusthof is certainly not the same as my experience.
As you say, not by a long shot. 
There are Japanese knives made with High carbon and VG-10 etc just like knives from other countries.
The notion that they will some how be better or stay sharper longer just because they are Japanese is not an absolute. A Fallkniven K1 is pretty much identical in the steel department to most Japanese knives made with VG-10. 
Don't get me wrong I use several Japanese knives but I think what you posted earlier or on another thread was far more accurate when you suggested that the harder steels can be sharper as long as the individual working on the knife has the skill to accomplish that.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Duckfat, 

Before going further, it should be said that we're in general agreement. We're starting to split some very fine hairs. 

Maybe it will help to restate a few general opinions:

You aren't going to get more out of any blade than your sharpening skills and equipment put into it.

There's nothing intrinsically better about Japanese knives, but Japanese manufacturers often use better knife steel and profiles than European manufacturers. In the continuum which includes "better" knives, whether carbon or stainless, at most price points Japanese knives are better designed and made from better steels than their European and American counterparts. There are exceptions. For instance, I think K-Sabatier au carbone - Vintage is a very usable knife. To my mind, as good as a Misono Sweden overall. 

The group of manufacturers whom I call "the Germans" include a few non German companies, Lamson (USA) and Forschner (Switzerland) by way of example. One thing they have in common is using one of two alloys for their better knives -- X45CrMo and X50CrMoV15. These steels are tough but not strong, and usually not hardened beyond 56 HrC. However, there are some exceptions especially with X50CrMo15 which may be taken up to 58 HrC. The top lines from Lamson, Wusthof, Messermeister, Forschner, Gude, F. Dick, etc., which make use of these alloys are wonderful knives. There are certainly valid reasons to buy them. But they're also heavy knives with soft blades. And with few exceptions they're German profiled: Powerful but clumsy. 

I think Rockwell hardness is immensely overrated by most prospective buyers and collectors. But surface hardness has its uses. Among these is resistance to rolling and waving. 

There are quite a few good, modern sharpeners using oil stones. Very few of us use oil. The trend is to use a water spritzer or sharpen dry (ala Jim Juranitch). For what it's worth, I usually sharpen dry on a coarse India, fine India, soft (Hall's) Arkansas, and surgical black (Hall's) Arkansas. 

It's not enough to change the oil with oil stones. They get dirty, clog, and need to be scoured, cleaned with kerosene, and/or boiled and/or run through a hot dishwasher. And, they need to be cleaned frequently to remove the swarf and keep the stones open. It's very common for someone in a restaurant kitchen to use a food oil. Almost all of them not only clog the stone but become rancid. 

Manmade waterstones (almost always made in Japan) are far more efficient than traditional western stones oil stones. Mine work well enough for my current knife collection, and don't need nearly as much maintenance (no flattening!) as waterstones. But the truth is, I continue to use mine mostly for sentimental reasons. Watersones would be much faster. 

I've got a lot of knowledge, experience as well as a lot of opinions about sharpening on stones and sharpening generally. The same with steeling. You may or may not have referred to my frequent remarks about using quality sharpening tools and appropriate methods with quality knives. Inappropriate methods -- "diamond steels" for instance -- make great knives and okay knives equal. I very strongly believe that any knife purchase should begin with a suitable plan on how to keep the knife sharp. 

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

BDL, I think we are in as close of agreement as two people with different experiences can be. I am not trying to split hairs but clarify what seemed rather sweeping generalisations with the intent of helping a new cook. For example Even though I use both Japanese and German knives I do not see my German knives as "clumsy" in any way. Clearly there are those who feel that way, many others do not. I see just them as different tools, not Better or worse.
I also agree that in General the Japanese use what many think of as "better" steel. However I find many of those are more difficult to sharpen and require a larger investment in sharpening equipment and time. 
In roughly 30 years working in professional kitchens I have never seen cooking oil used in a sharpening station. It may happen but it's certainly not the norm.
Again we clearly have had very different experiences. 
In either event I think that the real focus is a viable sharpening plan that can be implemented for a beginner. In this case that should take into account the norm in professional kitchens and be easy and cost effective for a new cook.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Ya' know, I thought about this statement for a few days, and admittedly *you are 100% right*. And diplomatically, what difference does it make? Let me explain.

If we are indeed a forum of experts (or those seeking to perfect their craft) we must excel at providing a better product--in this case, food.

A head chef doesn't roam willie-nillie through a produce aisle or butcher shop and glom onto the first example that falls to hand. Rather, he spends time searching out a superior product.

And this is what I mean with sharpening.

Edit: This concept is not limited to the country club set. I was once hired for a local Panera Bread outlet. I sharpened. We replaced many of their knives. One of the managers reported that the "lunch rush" went smoother and faster. The sandwiches had a better presentation, and every single employee involved reported that their work was easier.

First, a head chef "hires" me. He won't find my name in the yellow pages. He finds me by word-of-mouth. And to be fair, I don't work for anybody. I 'fired' a head chef from a four star. I won't do work for him anymore.

If the chef and I are to spend our time and patience to produce a superior product, then we make sure our mission statements are geared to the same goal.

We form a relationship. Most chefs evolve. They make a better kitchen. They seek out quality sous-chefs and cooks. The introduce signature dishes. Heck, they even buy new crockery and pans.

My contribution is taking better edges to the food. Period. If the knives are dull, I polish them. If the knives are worn or of poor quality, we replace them--sometimes over time as funds permit.

But I don't feel that the idea of "hard, expensive and complicated" is the right mind-set to begin a job of superior food service. You don't have to hire me. I don't have to work for you. But that first interview is free. And yes, I'll teach a chef how to sharpen--for free. Most come out of culinary schools with only rudimentary skills.


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

jap knives rule  and can be sharpened on cheap silicone carbide stones bought at the local lumber yard  and finished on home made leather strop!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

knifesosharp said:


> jap knives rule and can be sharpened on cheap silicone carbide stones bought at the local lumber yard and finished on home made leather strop!


Whether or not Jap knives rule or not is up to the user's choice. That being said there are excelent Japanese knives, and gawd-auwfull Japanese knives out there.

"Cheap silicone carbide stones at the lumber yard" are best for lawn mower blades. The stones are small, so using them on a 10" or larger knife is problematic, but hte thing is, what grit are the stones? What you will find at hardware store is 200-500 grit, wich will leve subsequent 200-500 grit scratches--or smilar to rubbing the blade on a sidewalk. Leather strops will leave a fine finish, but how do you finish a blade that has 200-500 grit scratches? All the leather strop will do is shine up the scratches.

One of the most basic rules of sharpening is that the finer the abrasive you use, your longer the edge will last. Most pros go to 6000 grit or 8000 grit, with some going as high as 12,000 grit.

Please b careful with the advice you see and here


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

all my knives shave and stay sharp a very long time. you dont have to sink in  tons of cash just use your head for more than growing hair.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Knife,

You wrote in your first post,


> jap knives rule and can be sharpened on cheap silicone carbide stones bought at the local lumber yard and finished on home made leather strop!


Whom are you talking to? This thread was dead for a year until you posted. There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that anyone's still looking at it, and the OP has long since bought his knives and moved on.

Most SiC stones are very slow when it comes to decent Japanese made knives. Actually, with the exception of something like a Norton coarse Crystolon, which is the rough equivalent of 150# JIS, they aren't just very slow, they're painfully slow.

Of course, down at those really coarse grits nothing's very good. Diamond plates wear out in no time. Waterstones dish like crazy. Oilstones are slooooooooooooow dry, slower still with water, and glacial with oil.

Foodpump makes several excellent points about SiC stones, including the difficulty of using small stones with large kitchen knives. Another regards the relative utility of jumping from a coarse stone to a fine strop.

Japanese knives are typically sharpened on Aluminum Oxide (AlO) waterstones because they are so much faster. They need a lot of maintenance though.

About your leather strop:

Is it hard or soft? In my experience, a soft strop is definitely not good for kitchen knives.
Plain or pasted? Plain strops don't do much, if anything. And certainly not much compared to pasted strops?
What kind of paste? Jewelers rouge? CrO? Diamond? ???
How do you avoid dubbing?
In your second post you wrote,


> all my knives shave and stay sharp a very long time. you dont have to sink in tons of cash just use your head for more than growing hair.


Shaving hair off your arm isn't much of a test. I know guys (including me) who can sharpen a knife on a cinder block and get it sharp enough keep my forearms bald. John Juranitch used to sharpen an axe on concrete, then shave his neck with it. "Shaving sharp" or not, it's not exactly what you'd call a _fine_ edge.

It's unclear what you're trying to say. So far it's more "drive-by" than anything else and not terribly informative. Why don't you start a thread and talk some more about your equipment (knife and sharpening) and your methods?

Always open to learning,

BDL


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

what are you cutting atoms.my stones are cheap and my strop is home made but it works very good.my point is you can get it done without huge amounts of coin .


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

puddingpop


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, yeah there are quite a few ways to sharpen on the cheap.  Diamond pastes smeared on a hunk of mdf is very cheap and does a good job.

Sandpaper on a piece of glass or a flat hunk of cast iron (like a table saw wing) are just as good, and teh better sanpapers like teh kind autobody shops use or even the micro-abrasice papers taht 3M puts out are cheap--under 2 bucks a sheet.

So, choice of abrasives is highly personal, with no one type of abrasive being ideal, all of them are good, and all of  them have one or two downsides.

Like I said in my above post, the finer the grit you use to finish your edge, the longer the edge will last.  Every craftsman the world over knows this rule, and has known about it for centuries.

You can sharpen with 500 grit, and polish it up a bit with a strop, but it will dull very quickly.  I don't like to sharpen, so when I have to, I do as good a job as I can so I don't have to sharpen more frequently--I also don't like to see my knives and other tools "shrink" by sharpening frequently


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

knifesosharp said:


> what are you cutting atoms.my stones are cheap and my strop is home made but it works very good.my point is you can get it done without huge amounts of coin .


IMHO, the "quality" of a craftsman's tools are a reflection of a craftsman's skills, ability, and professionalism.

One who "cuts corners" when it comes to maintenance of one's tools makes me wonder what other corners might be cut.

Thrifty makes sense, cheap for cheap sake is simply the choice of someone who either:

Doesn't know better, or
Doesn't care about their tools, or
Doesn't give a [email protected] about most anything except being cheap
At least, IMHO.


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

why is it killen you people that some person can have a good sharp set of knives without a truck load of high priced equipment?seems that high priced equals better in yalls book.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Not everyone. I'm a cheapie and own no high end kitchen knives. Forschner in many of the roles, a Meyer slicer, a 10" Henkels.

I sharpen the kitchen gear mostly on a heavily swarfed xtra fine diamond stone and some  wet dry sand paper with a loaded strop for finishing.

This works for my kitchen needs and budget. And I tend to prefer convex edges over a specific angle.


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

phatch ,            pardon me i apologise


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

knifesosharp said:


> why is it killen you people that some person can have a good sharp set of knives without a truck load of high priced equipment?seems that high priced equals better in yalls book.


Why is it "killen you" that some people spend money to sharpen knives? Seems that "cheap" equals better in yalls book.


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

Pete,    in this world there is a lot of excess and wast. to do more with less seems like a good thing.i simply pointed out a much less expensive method of getting your knife sharp which seemed to bother some people.oh my lawn mower cuts real good also.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Well Knifesosharp, there is "less expensive" and there is "cheap", the key is whether one achieves the same result.

I cannot speak for anyone else, however, I do not treat my knives like a lawn mower blade. If you wish to do so, that is your choice but it is not mine nor would I recommend it to anyone else.

End of conversation.


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

well pete  i use a right angle grinder on the lawn mower blades


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm another Forschner ("economical" Swis knives) guy, and what aren't Forschner are garage sale finds that I have re-gound and profiled or made new scales for and re-riveted them back on.  Sandpaper on  tablesaw wings works just fine, and if you can find used stones at garage sales and flea markets, then go for it, but they also need work to flatten and to boil out the crud they're choked and glazed up with.

No more lawnmower!  Pulled out the lawn ( it was nothin but weeds anyway) and put in river rock interspaced with herbs and by leaf trees.  Hate lawns anyway, waste of time, money, and water.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

None of my current knives are very expensive. With the exception of a mid-sixties carbon Chicago Cutlery cleaver, all of my primary knives are Sabatier carbons from a variety of makers, and of one vintage or another; and the remainder are all old Forschner Rosewoods. The only knives I've bought _and kept_ recently are some TI "Nogent" Sabatiers which were actually made in the thirties.

Still, I've had, used, and sharpened a LOT of different knives.

You usually don't find high performing Japanese made knives priced at the low end -- and especially at the current rate of exchange. So, I wonder how much money someone would actually save?

I currently own two separate sharpening kits. One, oilstone (but no oil!) I've had for awhile, and something darn near identical for more than forty years. It's made up of a (Norton) coarse India and fine India, and (Hall's) soft Arkansas and surgical black Arkansas. Do you consider this an expensive set?

I've had several waterstone sets over the years -- none of them cheap. The one I've got now is admittedly high-end: Beston 500, Bester 1200, Chosera 3K, Naniwa 8K. Fortunately I bought three of the stones used, from a friend, and the Chosera from another friend who sold at about half the usual discount price. Taken altogether, it was still a lot of money.

The oilstones work fine on all my knives. The waterstones are better on the carbons, and much better on the sorts of steels -- carbon and stainless -- commonly used in Japanese made knives.

After years of sharpening Japanese knives with just about anything you can think of, IMO anyone who uses an oilstone for all but the roughest profiling and repair work is nuts. Silicon carbide is especially problematic for it's tendencies to scratch and load up. Cheap SiC -- anything cheaper than a Norton Crystolon -- tend to crumble and otherwise break.

Over the years, I've used various kinds of strops (soft leather, hard leather, mdf, etc.) and reference plates (glass, iron) for a variety of purpose. And so on, and so forth.

You certainly can sharpen as well on hard strops as on stones, but it requires a succession of pastes which means a succession of strops as well. When all is said and done, it takes as much technique as stones and is at least as inconvenient. Messy, too.

I'd like to ratify or argue against your technique, but can not since I have no idea of what you're actually doing, how you're doing it or to what you're doing it. Please get specific.

Here are some questions for you:

_Which knife models and brand(s)?_
_Do you pull a burr on your stone?_
_What brand, grit size, and size of stone?_
_Are your strops rough or smooth leather?_
_Are your strops soft or hard (a hard strop is stuck on a piece of wood, or something else)?_
_Do you use pastes?_
_If you do, what kind (CrO, Diamond, etc.)?_
_What are some examples, besides shaving arm hair, of things that make you think a knife is sharp? _
_What "tests" do you use? (For instance, I use thumbdragging, and fine slicing things which would crumble if cut with a knife at all dull.)_
Do I need to say that answering these questions isn't some kind of test meant to make you look bad. We really want to know more about what you're doing, instead of filling in the vast blanks ourselves and probably getting it completely wrong.

Cutting atoms? No. But it brings up the point that we two may simply mean different things when we say "sharp." I like my edges as sharp as possible -- while retaining some measure of durability. On the other hand, you may be able to live with significantly less. Certainly, most people do.

Really want to know,

BDL


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## knifesosharp (Jul 26, 2010)

bdl,  i realy didnt mean to get this involved but i do know what real sharp is. my knives arent expensive. i have five different stones have had   some for thirty years  one very fine ceramic weighs a ton a gift.one fine natural stone my oldest son found twenty years ago on the shore of a local lake but it is a sharpening stone you can see where it was cut. the rest are sic combo stones from the lumber yard coarse on one side and fine on the other longest about ten inches. the strop my dad made when i was about ten its on a walnut board one day i sharpened my pocket knife stropped it then tested it by splitting the leather the full length of it ,its been mine from then on i would say its hard. im sure that some people can sharpen better but i do pretty good makes my wife happy and that is all that counts!


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