# Pie Crust



## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

Hi. I am on the hunt for improved pie crusts (i.e., nothing can possibly go wrong). I found something interesting in my voluminous box of recipes which mentions to "rub the pie crust with egg white [before prebaking for a pumpkin pie]".

What would be the purpose of this? We are to prebake the crust at 450 degrees for 5 minutes, then put the custard mixture in and bake the whole thing.

Thanks for your help!


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

Egg white is used to seal the crust so filling want make the bottom soggy.

I made pie crust every day for weeks until I got it right and consistent.

Ratios are key: 
Flour 100%
Fat 80% (you can use less, but I wouldn't recommend less than 70%)
Water 25% to 30% (water is tricky because flour absorbency varies by lot, type, and brand)
Salt 1% (DISSOLVE SALT IN ICE WATER)
Sugar 7% (for sweet pies only)

I estimate 20 grams of flour per 1" of pie plate. When calculating flour don't forget to add 2" inches for sides and 1" for tucked and crimped edge. So for 9" plate, flour will be calculated for 12". 

Flour matters. I prefer 55/45 blend of all purpose to pastry flour.
The organic unbleached all purpose flour I like is protein 10-10.5%; ash 56%; hard red winter wheat; malted 
The organic unbleached pastry flour; protein 10%; ash 52%; soft white wheat

I prefer Central Milling flours.

Butter matters. Higher fat butters work best. But don't use a pliable brand like kerrygold. It's too soft and makes a greasy crust. I prefer Pulgra. 

Cultured butters will work well, but some brands like Vermont Creamery with 86% butterfat can be greasy. I like Trader Joe's cultured butter, but it's salted, so reduce the amount of salt if you try it.

Dissolve the salt in the ice water--do not add it to the dry ingredients. 

Making dough by hand is the best way. Using a food processor or pastry cutter will chop the butter into bits to small to make a really flaky crust. Butter needs to be flakes. It takes me all of 5 minutes from start to finished dough.

Cube the butter and chill it. Toss butter into dry ingredients to coat the butter. Then use the heel to flatten butter cubes into flour. 

Use a rolling pin to roll over butter and flour. This will create long butter flakes. Use a bench scraper to cut up butter flakes. Repeat rolling and cutting several times until nearly all the flour is incorporated into the butter. 

Make a well in the center and pour in salted ice water. Use bench scraper and with a folding and cutting motion, cut flour into the water until water is absorbed,

Now here's where you need to have total faith that the dough with come together. This is similar to rough puff pastry technique, but it works beautifully for pie crust.

Roll dough into a rectangle 1/2" thick. It will be crumbly. Have faith. Use bench scraper and fold crumbs into tri-fold. 

Turn it a quarter turn using bench scraper. Yes, it will be crumbly. Have faith. Roll it again into a rectangle 1/2" thick. Tri-fold. Quarter turn. Yes it will still be crumbly...don't lose faith. Repeat this two or three more times. I swear the dough will come together in 4 to 5 turns.

Divide, wrap, and chill the dough at least 2 hours. I prefer overnight. 

Let dough sit out for about 20-30 minutes before you roll it to make your pie. The cold butter will be hard, so it needs time to soften.

Tips on pie:

Roll the dough, do not stretch it. To prevent stretching, turn the disk after each pass of the rolling pin. If the dough sticks to the counter, you'll be stretching it, not rolling it. A stretched dough will be tough. So turn the disk with each pass.

Brush off excess flour after dough is rolled.

Freeze the dough in the pie plate for 10 minutes before filling and baking. 

Place oven rack on lowest position. 

Preheat the cookie sheet. The heat from the sheet will help bake the bottom faster, and reduce the chance of a soggy and/or half baked bottom.

Bake hot. I bake hand pies at 375 degrees. Whole pies at 400 degrees.

Use an egg wash for best browning.

Pie dough freezes beautifully. Make extra. Roll and cut into circles. Freeze 20 min on a cookie sheet. Then stack with wax paper between circles. Wrap stack well and put in freezer.

To use, place a frozen disk over the pie plate. The dough will gentle sink into the pie plate as it thaws.

I'm totally obsessed with pie


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

Holy cow! Lots of information! I need it, too - I am still learning to make that perfect crust! I've never made a really good pie; there's always something going at least a bit wrong!

Thank you for answering my question. Since you are "obsessed" with pie, maybe you could give me your opinion on a pie crust recipe that I have not yet tried, as follows:

*EASY PIE CRUST*

*- 2 TB powdered sugar*

*- 2 TB milk*

*- 1/2 cup of oil*

*- 1-1/2 cups of flour*

*- 1/2 tsp of salt*

*Instructions:*

*Mix all the ingredients together and press into a pie plate with your fingers. Bake at 325 degrees for 15-20 minutes or until edges are lightly golden brown. This is the easiest pie crust to make and it turns out perfectly every time. *

Norcalbaker - I am scared to try this pie crust recipe. It goes against everything I know about pie crusts. I mean - oil? Any opinions?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I wouldn't waste ingredients trying that recipe. Start with something more traditional, like the method above. 

Instead of roll and fold and roll and fold, another technique is to romp it on a board after mixes and "smear" it together with the heel of your hand. "Frissage"... if I'm spelling it correctly. That both incorporates everything plus makes the fat thin so a flaky crust results.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Any crust from this site will be right:

http://m.joyofbaking.com/PieAndTartRecipes.html

Or search "pie crust" on this site:

http://joepastry.com/


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

Thanks for all your advice and the links, Brian. I went to Joy of Baking and homed in right way to Pumpkin Tarts and Pumpkin pie, faves of mine. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif I have to do something with the winter squashes from the garden.

The pastry recipes are both the same, but one (for the Pie) is called Pate Brisee (short crust pastry). Also, they require a food processor, which I don't have. My mother and relatives made pretty good pie crusts without machinery.

Have you ever made a good pie crust by hand, from scratch? Jes' askin'.

Thanks.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

Lol, yes seems strange to see oil in a pie crust rather than a solid fat. 

But it's actually a typical no roll pie crust. An oil based pie crust is generally best when you have a liquid filling like a custard based pie. On the plus side there's less risk of over developing the gluten. And they are frequently used in vegan applications because there's no butter. This recipe has milk, but water can easily be substituted. 

I think you just have to adjust you concept of pie crust when you make an oil based crust.
1. Oil lacks milk fats, so it will not brown like a butter crust. My guess it the recipe developer is trying to compensate for the absence of milkfat by using milk in place of water. Consider a butter crust contains any where from 30% to 90% butter, the small amount of milk in this recipe probably won't effect browning.
2. An oil crust won't be flaky. It will be sturdier and crisp. For flaky pastry, a solid fat must be coated, almost imbedded, in the flour. But when making a liquid filling, a sturdier crust can be a better choice. 
3. Powdered sugar is about 3% cornstarch. Cornstarch has a high moisture absorbency so it can impart a gummy texture. My guess is powdered sugar is used here because both sugar and cornstarch will aid browning. 
4. Since it's in volume measurements, it's hard to tell what the ratios are, but 1/2 cup oil to 1 1/2 cups a flour is the the ballpark. There isn't much milk; given the use of powdered sugar, you may have to add more milk to off-set the moisture absorbency of the cornstarch.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Making with food processor is faster, but that can get one in trouble faster. I generally make by hand. It's easier and less chance of mistakes.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Pate brisee, BTW, is basically just "pie crust" in French.


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

@norcalbaker. Geeze, where did you learn all this stuff, I mean the chemistry behind baking & cooking? I think I once heard about a book that explains all this stuff in a way that nonprofessionals (nonchemists) can understand. Are you familiar with it? Wish I could recall the title of that book.

@Brian. I am relieved to hear that a chef chooses to do a crust by hand!

Many thanks to the both of you for your input. I will make a perfect pie yet. I've not had a* raisin pie* since childhood, that's 40 yr. ago, so I hope to take a crack at that next.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Wyandotte said:


> Hi. I am on the hunt for improved pie crusts (i.e., nothing can possibly go wrong). I found something interesting in my voluminous box of recipes which mentions to "rub the pie crust with egg white [before prebaking for a pumpkin pie]".
> 
> What would be the purpose of this? We are to prebake the crust at 450 degrees for 5 minutes, then put the custard mixture in and bake the whole thing.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


Get yourself a copy of the book entitled *RATIO* by Ruhlman. Then, do a search on my name to learn how to prebake a crust. Pm me if you need to.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Raisin pie. Yum. That's not in my tradition but had one as an adult. Yum.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

BrianShaw said:


> Raisin pie. Yum. That's not in my tradition but had one as an adult. Yum.


There was a bakery across the street from my high school that made a sort of raisin pie/bar.

Half sheet pan lined with short dough and then almost an inch of the filling.

One of those treats you remember forever .

Wouldn't mind having a recipe..... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif...

mimi


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

*Raisin pie. Yum.*

LOL! I know. Once you've had a slice, you can't forget. We had it regularly as kids especially at church dinners. I see different kinds of recipes on the ww web, so now I wonder which is better for the thickening - cornstarch or flour...

Here we go.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Every pm when the last bell rang my brother and I would walk over for a snack and eat it sitting on the curb.

My mom was notoriously late for everything and was a nice way to pass the time lol.

mimi

Odd tho my brother does not remember those raisin bars...

By that age I was already working part time at a place that did event cakes only so I guess I was trying to break down recipes for my own place.

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif

m.


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## pie lady bakes (Feb 25, 2017)

My favorite piecrust recipe is one that I have used for over 40 years.  I've modified it some, but it's my perfect pie crust every time.  Like the others who have posted, I prefer to work the pastry dough by hand.

6 cups flour (I like to use cake and pastry flour)

1 tsp baking powder

1 tsp salt

1 pound of vegetable shortening 

1 egg

2 tbsp vinegar

water

Mix the dry ingredients together

Cut the shortening into small chunks

Using a pastry blender work the shortening into the flour mixture slowly until it is all mixed and the shortening is 'pea sized'.  You will be able to take a handful and squeeze it - it should stick together.

Beat the egg is a one cup measuring cup, add the vinegar and fill the cup with water

Add this to the pastry mixture and blend, using a light hand.  When the pastry and egg are completely mixed, separate into four balls and wrap each in plastic wrap.  This recipe will give you enough pastry dough for four pies.  I usually freeze three and chill the one I want to use for about 30 minutes before I roll it out.

Happy Baking!


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

Wyandotte said:


> @norcalbaker. Geeze, where did you learn all this stuff, I mean the chemistry behind baking & cooking? I think I once heard about a book that explains all this stuff in a way that nonprofessionals (nonchemists) can understand. Are you familiar with it? Wish I could recall the title of that book.
> 
> @Brian. I am relieved to hear that a chef chooses to do a crust by hand!
> 
> Many thanks to the both of you for your input. I will make a perfect pie yet. I've not had a *raisin pie* since childhood, that's 40 yr. ago, so I hope to take a crack at that next.


Wyandotte, Experience (aka epic kitchen failures) and curiosity as to why a recipe failed led me toward the science of baking. The book you reference may be Cookwise.

Cookwise by Shirley Corriher is an excellent cookbook that explains a lot of the science in cooking. Twenty years ago Corriher broke new ground when she wrote this textbook type of cookbook aimed at the home cook. She also authored Bakewise. I still regularly use my old copy of Cookwise as reference.

The Food Lab by J. Kenji Lopez-Alt is also an excellent resource on food science. His website, Serious Eats, has an extraordinary amount of information and recipes available for free. Lopez-Alt is the geek of geeks on food science. He spent years as a chef for America's Test Kitchen, so he breaks down the science in a similar user-friendly format.

Brave Tart: Iconic American Desserts by Stella Parks. Parks is an accomplished pastry chef, cookbook author, as well as an editor and food writer for Serious Eats. Parks is one pastry chef who knows her science, and will take on fears and myths surrounding cooking and baking by explaining the science in terms understandable to laypersons. Parks is just nothing short of amazing. If Park utters it, I pretty much accept it as a truth in baking science. If you google her name and Serious Eats, you'll get a link to her bio page. Click on it and scroll down for her list of articles on Serious Eats.

There was mention of a book on ratios by Michael Ruhlman. I would say approach with caution on that book. He made up the ratios for his book. Many home bakers found his ratios to be faulty, and culinary programs pretty panned his book. Examples of what I found wrong are his pie crust ratio of 3-2-1. It's the same as his cookie ratio. I don't have a single pie crust or cookie recipe with 3-2-1. I literally spent weeks experimenting on pie crust, I repeatedly used and found 3-2-1 to produce a lackluster crust. In cookies, the type of cookie is going to determine the ratios. A shortbread will have more butter than a chocolate chip cookie. My favorite shortbread recipe has 75% butter to flour. Tartine's shortbread recipe, which is heavenly, has equal parts by weight butter to flour (not factoring in cornstarch). My chocolate chip cookie has 10% more butter than Ruhlman's cookie ratio. A chocolate chip cookie with 66% butter makes a really bland cookie. I found 75% butter to be the minimum needed in a chocolate chip cookie. I had a chocolate chip cookie obsession going for a while there. My son finally said, "mom, seriously leave the cookie alone, it's better than any cookie I can buy at a bakery."


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I know Kokopuffs has great success with Ruhlmans pie crust ratio but I find it too loose and greasy.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

BrianShaw said:


> I know Kokopuffs has great success with Ruhlmans pie crust ratio but I find it too loose and greasy.


Brianshaw,
No doubt a baker can produce something edible with Ruhlman's ratios. In fact I was initially intrigued by Ruhlman's ratios. But his ratios produced pastry inferior to the quality I have produced for years. After analyzing things, I realized the problem was inherent in his approach.

Ruhlman is frank about the fact that he's a cook, and not a pastry chef. This difference shows in his simplistic view of pastry. Ruhlman explains his premise on ratios began with the observation that there's scant difference in ratios between a pound cake, sponge cake, or pancake. That's like saying there's scant difference between my Toyota and a Lamborghini. He doesn't understand the whole is definitely other than the sum of its parts.

Ruhlman doesn't realize pastry isn't defined by subtle nuances of ratios. Other factors aside (technique, temperature, etc.), to produce a cake verses a cookie, one must start with type of flour, fat, liquid, etc. In other words, it's not the ratios that define cake, rather types of ingredients that determine ratios, which in turn, ultimately determine the finished products. No matter what the ratios, you cannot make an angel food cake with unbleached whole wheat flour. No matter what the ratios, you cannot make a pie crust with bleached cake flour. Ratios in baking are a determined by ingredients. Ruhlman has it backwards, it doesn't begin with ratios.


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

*My favorite piecrust recipe is one that I have used for over 40 years. I've modified it some, but it's my perfect pie crust every time. Like the others who have posted, I prefer to work the pastry dough by hand.*

*6 cups flour (I like to use cake and pastry flour)*

Pielady, do you mean a mixture of cake & pastry flour or what. My understanding is that they are not quite the same thing. To get your perfect crust, do you use a specific ratio of cake to pastry flour?

Also, I see that yours is a large recipe and that it requires an egg for 6 cups of flour. Me, I would liquefy (with an old fashioned eggbeater, which I love) the egg and measure out one-half of it so that I could make less pie dough. Does this sound crazy to you? I hope not.

By "vegetable" shortening, I guess you mean Crisco? Or margarine?

PS. While I'm here, I have a recipe from an old church ladies' cookbook which recommends using 1 Cup of *lard* and 1/4 Cup of butter (per 3 cups of flour) just to complicate things! I don't wish to use lard but I know that the use of lard is an old tradition and that from what I hear it is truly the best kind of saturated fat for baking and cooking.

Hoo boy...the plot thickens.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Pie Lady Bakes said:


> My favorite piecrust recipe is one that I have used for over 40 years. I've modified it some, but it's my perfect pie crust every time. Like the others who have posted, I prefer to work the pastry dough by hand.
> 
> 6 cups flour (I like to use cake and pastry flour)
> 
> ...


Why vinegar? this is the first time I've encountered it in making pie dough.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Vinegar is supposed to keep gluten formation in check and give you flakier results.
Sub it out for some of the liquid.
Gma Van always added some but that was back in the day when AP flour was all that was available to the home cook.
Today we have a zillion flours with different protein % at our fingertips and anyone can produce an awesome pie.

mimi


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

When I need butter for a shortbread ( or a crust for pie) I freeze it first then run across a grater ( largest holes) then lay out on a parchment sheet and stick it back in the freezer .
While the butter is refreezing I sift the drys together.
Toss the butter in and using my fingers I " lift" the butter thru the drys a couple times...until it is shaggy then stick the bowl back in the freezer for a min or two.
Finish with a bit of liquid to bring the mass together and shape disks ...
Sounds like a PITA but it is a good trick for those whose hands are too hot to "rub" the fat in.

mimi


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## misschief (Dec 9, 2016)

flipflopgirl said:


> Vinegar is supposed to keep gluten formation in check and give you flakier results.
> Sub it out for some of the liquid.
> Gma Van always added some but that was back in the day when AP flour was all that was available to the home cook.
> Today we have a zillion flours with different protein % at our fingertips and anyone can produce an awesome pie.
> ...


That recipe is straight from the Tenderflake Shortening package and has been around forever. I'm in my 60's and I remember my mother using that recipe. She was a terrible cook/baker (she admits that she's always hated cooking and baking; it showed) and that her apple pies were the best thing she made..... usually.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

For my pate brisees I use exclusively White Lily AP flour.  It's a soft wheat flour where the main national brands are hard wheat.  Makes a real difference.  Should you have access to only hard wheat flours, then make yourself a 50-50 blend of hard wheat and pastry/cake flour like Swan's Down.  The blend will lighten your results.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs said:


> Why vinegar? this is the first time I've encountered it in making pie dough.


Simple answer: there is an incorrect and persistent myth that vinegar will tenderize a crust by inhibiting gluten formation.

Geeky answer: wheat contains protein. A protein molecule in its native state repels bonding with other molecules around it. When the outer structure of a molecule is destroyed, it will readily bond with other molecules. You can see this happen when you cook an egg; beat egg whites; or bake a batter. The liquid coagulates into a cohesive mass because the damaged molecules begin to bond to one another. That reaction is called protein denaturation. Protein denaturation is irreversible.

In biology and chemistry classes, one of the first things they teach is protein denaturation. Agents of protein denaturation include heat and acid. Acetic acid is a common agent used in protein denaturation. Vinegar is acetic acid. When you add it to your dough, you prematurely trigger the protein denaturation reaction. When you put the dough in the oven, the heat continues the denaturation process. Too much protein denaturation too quickly results in a tough and chewy crust


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Norcalbaker59 said:


> Simple answer:..................... Too much protein denaturation too quickly results in a tough and chewy crust


I'll just continue on with my pate brisee methode. Where you from in Nor Cal???


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

*Gma Van always added some but that was back in the day when AP flour was all that was available to the home cook.*

ABout 28 yr. ago an oldish woman (maybe 70+) game me her "perfect" pie crust recipe which, yes, did include vinegar!

*Today we have a zillion flours with different protein % at our fingertips and anyone can produce an awesome pie.*

No kidding. When I go to the bulk food joint I am so bewildered in the flour section. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs, I live in the epicenter of both wine and food country--the Napa Valley. Just outside St. Helena. Ironically, I live surrounded by vineyards, but rarely drink. But I sure love to eat and the food in this region is nothing short of amazing.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Norcalbaker59 said:


> kokopuffs, I live in the epicenter of both wine and food country--the Napa Valley. Just outside St. Helena. Ironically, I live surrounded by vineyards, but rarely drink. But I sure love to eat and the food in this region is nothing short of amazing.


Me, I lived in El Cerrito and Berkeley's Gourmet Ghetto areas from 1975 thru 1989, when the food revolution was just beginning its ascent and before Napa became highly gentrified. Onward and upward! 8)


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## rpooley (Dec 1, 2015)

My go-to recipe:

1 1/2 c AP flour

10 T unsalted butter

big pinch salt

big pinch sugar

5 T ice water

This is enough for a generous 9-inch or standard 10-inch, usually with some scraps left over for little tart pans I have.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but pie crusts pretty much generally always seem to turn out fine. If there are a couple of things that seem to make a difference, I would offer these:

Resting/chilling the dough after mixing in the fridge.

Resting/chilling the dough after rolling/plating

LOTS and LOTS of beans or pie weights, whatever you use to blind bake

The biggest secret for me is if I'm going to make one recipe, I make 6, and freeze the rest.

@Norcalbaker59 Your rolling technique reminds me of Chef Jim Dodge's from so many decades ago. I love his books and wish they would come back into print.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs said:


> Me, I lived in El Cerrito and Berkeley's Gourmet Ghetto areas from 1975 thru 1989, when the food revolution was just beginning its ascent and before Napa became highly gentrified. Onward and upward! 8)


I know the areas well...former train operator for BART. Worked out of the Richmond yard. If you ever used BART, I may well have been the operator in the train cab. Lived in North Berkeley off Euclid until late '80s, then moved to the City. Circled from east coast to west...now back to where I grew up.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

rpooley, I didn't know who Jim Dodge was, so googled him. I found an LA Times article from 2002 that included his pie crust recipe. It's almost identical to what I do! If only I had known about Dodge before my pie crust madness--could have saved me weeks of work and several hundred dollars in ingredients))))


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## rpooley (Dec 1, 2015)

If you hunt around, you can find video of him making it with Julia Child


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BrianShaw said:


> I know Kokopuffs has great success with Ruhlmans pie crust ratio but I find it too loose and greasy.


Loose???? Greasy???

for six ounces of flour Ruhlman calls for 4 oz fat. Since american butter is 80% fat, then 5 oz instead of 4 oz of american butter needs to be added to the dry ingredients. The crust will roll out much smoother.

And also, my pate brisee is a three-day process as I've mentioned previously. 

Day one make the dough and flatten into a disk. Wrap in plastic. Allow to rest at room temp for an hour and refrigerate overnight or even for several days.
Day two roll the dough and line the mold. Uncovered, allow the dough to rest at room temp for an hour and refrigerate overnight uncovered for drying.
Blind bake for 45 minutes, remove weights and bake for 10 minutes more then brush a wash onto the crust and bake for another 10 minutes or so.
I've mentioned all of this in previous threads and my method has evolved into what's shown in The Art of French Pastry by Jacquy Pfeiffer.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

rpooley said:


> My go-to recipe:
> 
> 1 1/2 c AP flour
> 
> ...


Resting and chilling along all stages relaxes the gluten as you already know. It would therefore seem to me that resting/chilling eliminates the need to add vinegar to the mix unless the dough is made, mixed and baked all in the same day.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BrianShaw said:


> Pate brisee, BTW, is basically just "pie crust" in French.


NO! Here it's a question of semantics. In France a tart is all about the crust; here in America concerning pie, it's the filling. In France the pate brise is made using a high fat butter like Kerrygold whereas in America shortening and/or lard is used which results in a huge difference in flavor profile.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

kokopuffs said:


> NO! Here it's a question of semantics. In France a tart is all about the crust; here in America concerning pie, it's the filling. In France the pate brise is made using a high fat butter like Kerrygold whereas in America shortening and/or lard is used which results in a huge difference in flavor profile.


YES AND NO! Just as there is no definitive authoritative legal standard for pate brisee (that I know of) there is no definitive standard for American pie crust. Your generalizations about the preferred fats are generally true though.

I wasn't splitting hairs quite that much, and definitely not restricting the use of pate brisee to tarts. Here is what I was talking about:

http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/pâte brisée


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

BrianShaw said:


> YES AND NO! Just as there is no definitive authoritative legal standard for pate brisee (that I know of) there is no definitive standard for American pie crust. Your generalizations about the preferred fats are generally true though.
> 
> I wasn't splitting hairs quite that much, and definitely not restricting the use of pate brisee to tarts. Here is what I was talking about:
> 
> http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/pâte brisée


Kokopuffs makes a salient point on difference between interpretation of language verses ingredients between American and French pastry.

By law, butter in the US must be a minimum of 80% butterfat. In France, law mandates a minimum of 82% butterfat. Aside from butterfat, fermentation is a differentiating factor between French and American butter. In France, the cream is rested up to 18 hours before its churned. During the rest period, the cream naturally ferments, essentially becomes creme fraiche, then it's churned into butter.

French butter is often called cultured butter. American butter is labeled "Sweet Cream" which refers to the unfermented cream used to churn the butter. American butter is in fact so bland, manufacturers add flavoring to give it some defining characteristics.

Aside from the tangy flavor imparted by the culturing, the texture is altered by the higher acidity. The fermentation also gives the butter a mailable quality that is not found in American butter, and increases the melting point. These qualities contribute to a more tender crumb and better rise, especially in yeast doughs.

The Vermont Creamy in the US produces an excellent cultured butter with 86% butterfat. The owner of the dairy lived and work in France before opening her dairy; her butter is produced in the same manner as French butter.

Butter in the US labeled "European Style", like Plugra, is not cultured butter. Rather, it's sweet cream butter with a butterfat content similar to the levels found in European butters.

Beurre d'Echire is the gold standard butter for many bakers in France. It's has AOC status (Appellation d'Origine Controlee) and is produced by a collective of only 66 farms. So availability is limited, but it is available online and in some gourmet grocery stores. The butterfat in Beurre d'Echire is 84%.

When using a French butter, you may not be able to make 1:1 conversion. You have to take into account the difference in both butterfat and the gluten content of the flour used. While French butter has higher butterfat, French flour has lower gluten content than American flour. So in addition to the differences in butters between the countries, flour differences also attribute to the marked quality and flavor differences between pastry produced in France and the US.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

French flour is a soft wheat flour like White Lily AP flour that's produced in the southern states.


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs said:


> French flour is a soft wheat flour like White Lily AP flour that's produced in the southern states.


Kokopuffs,
Yes White Lily is a soft wheat, so lower gluten content. But variety of wheat is just one factor in gluten content. Cultivation conditions (soil, climate, herbicides, etc.) impact flour's final composition.

For instance, the average French pastry flour has 9% protein and less than


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Norcalbaker59 said:


> ................I use a premium brand flour; same flour brand used by bakeries like Tartine, Acme, and Josey Baker. The pastry flour is soft wheat. Protein is 10%; Ash is 0.52--higher than the average French pastry flour. Higher protein effects dough elasticity; higher ash effect texture (higher ash, more coarse the crumb).


What's the name of the flour that you use?


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs said:


> What's the name of the flour that you use?


Central Milling. It's not sold in stores that I am aware of since they supply the trade. But they make a number of flours available to the consumer through their website. If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, the all purpose flour sold at Whole Foods under their 365 label is actually Central Milling flour. They are a partner of a local bakery supply company called Keith Giusto Bakery Supply in Petaluma, CA. Giusto repackages the bulk flour into 5 lb bags for the home consumer. I use their organic line, but they have a conventional line of flours as well.

https://centralmilling.com


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

kokopuffs said:


> What's the name of the flour that you use?


Some of the




  








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goods I've baked with Central Milling flours


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.

I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc.

This dough was the nicest I've ever made and the tarts were perfect.

@Norcalbaker59 That is a most beautiful pie!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Good for you! What fat did you use? I'll bet the my were yummy!


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

Wyandotte said:


> After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.
> 
> I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc.
> 
> ...


CONGRATULATIONS! I'm glad to hear your raisin tarts were a success. Raisin tarts make me think of my grandma's mincemeat pie. Every Thanksgiving and Christmas everyone wanted and ate the pumpkin pie--so I got the whole mincemeat pie to myself). And her fruitcake too!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Wyandotte said:


> After reading and reading all these comments, I decided to make some raisin tarts. For the pastry, I used 3/4 pastry flour + 1/4 allpurpose (my idea). These flours were from a bulk store and I don't know who the mfr is.
> 
> I've never used pastry flour before, since most recipes tell you to use A.P., plus telling you that pastry flour is more difficult and you have to be more experienced at pastry making etc............


A suggestion: if you're not already doing so please weigh all of your ingredients. It's much faster and *more* accurate.

I've never read that pastry flour is more difficult to use. Bee ess. I contains less gluten than AP and BF.

Which fat did you use for your pastry doughs????? This ingredient, we'd all like to know.


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

Hi, kids! Thanks for all the nice words and advice.

@Brian & Kokopuffs & Norcal. I used butter. I'm interested in knowing why weighing is better than measuring. We would have to be using a recipe that gives the weights instead of volume?

I think maybe my pastry came out so nice because I used really cold butter - straight from the refrig. I cut it into small cubes first.

Then combined these little cubes with the flour using a - wait for it - potato masher, the metal kind with holes, not wires. This was the first time I tried this as I have always had some trouble getting the pieces of butter the right size. The dough looked just right to me even though I was just guessing.

Also allowed the dough to chill and rest as has been advised here.

In the past, I think I was careless about some aspects, but reading here, I see the importance of proper procedure. That is probably more important than using pastry flour but I will never go back to 100% AP flour.

Many thanks to all for your advice and interest. Those tarts were so good. So, next question:

*Why can't we make a raisin pie using tart ingredients? Does the larger volume have something to do with this?*


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## norcalbaker59 (Feb 16, 2017)

Wyandotte,

Baking is all about the science. So professional and advance baker's use weight measurements to ensue correct ratios of flour, to fats, to liquids, to sugar, to leavening.. If any of the ratios are off, it will have an adverse impact on the end product.

Ingredients do not weigh the same. For example:
1 cup of granulated sugar weighs 7 ounces or 200 grams. 
1 cup of all purpose flour weighs 4.25 ounces or 120 grams. 
1 cup of pastry flour weighs 3.75 ounces or 106 grams. 
1 teaspoon of baking powder weighs 4 grams.
1 teaspoon of baking soda weighs 6 grams.

Weighing ingredients is far more accurate that volume measurements. When you use a measuring cup you can easily pack substantially more or less into the cup, depending on the way you fill the cup. If you dip the cup into flour, then level, you end up with a lot more than 4.25 oz/200 g. If you use the spoon fill, then level method you can get less than the 4.25 oz/200 g.

In addition to accuracy of measurement, weight measurement allows you to scale a recipe. If you need to make 8 pies, you use baker's percentages to calculate the amount of each ingredient. You can't take a recipe and simply multiple it by 8--the ratios will be off the more a recipe is multiplied.

With a formula, you will get consist results whether you make 1 pie crust or 100 pie crusts because the percentages ensures the ratios will be the same no matter how large or small the batch.

If you are making cake batter, and you decide to use a different size pan, baker's percentages allow you to scale the recipe to the pan. Important because the difference between an 8" round cake pan and 9" round cake pan is only 1" but that translates to a difference in batter amounts to just over 28%.

Professional baker's and many advanced baker's use formulas instead of recipes. For instance, my pie recipe is written as follows:

20 grams per inch
Flour 1.00 (55/45 blend Beehive to Pastry)
Butter .80
Water .32
Sugar .12
Salt .01 (dissolve in ice water)

Flour is always 100%--always. Even if there's more of another ingredient, flour remains 100%, always. My chocolate chunk cookie has more sugar by weight than flour. It reads:
Flour 1.0
Sugar 1.10

I use metric weight since it's more accurate than US weight.

This link below is to King Arthur Flour weight conversion chart of commonly used baking ingredients. Their weights are pretty much the standard. But some recipe developers use different flour weights. Dorie Greenspan uses 136 g/per cup of flour. America's Test Kitchen use 142 g/per cup of flour.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/ingredient-weight-chart.html

There's also a site called Traditional Oven that will convert volume to weight.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Norcalbaker59 said:


> ...........................Weighing ingredients is far more accurate that volume measurements. When you use a measuring cup you can easily pack substantially more or less into the cup, depending on the way you fill the cup. If you dip the cup into flour, then level, you end up with a lot more than 4.25 oz/200 g. If you use the spoon fill, then level method you can get less than the 4.25 oz/200 g.............


 ...and if you fluff then scoop the flour with a scoop without compressing it and gently dispense into a one cup measure, then level it, the amout of flour will weigh even less. That's the reason to weigh ingredients, it's more *accurate* and consistent.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I've used a potato masher for a lot more than just mashing potatos, but I never thought of using one for making pie crust (or pate brisee either). If you said you used a wire one I wouldn't be scratching my head so much. But a flat one with holes... how innovative, experimental, and avant guarde. Good for you!


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## wyandotte (May 24, 2011)

_@BrianShaw_*. If you said you used a wire one I wouldn't be scratching my head so much. But a flat one with holes... how innovative, experimental, and avant guarde. Good for you!*

_Grazie! Mille grazie!_

_@Norcal. _That is surely the most scientific approach to ingredients I've ever read. I imagine there's even more to know, though, if you take a course in professional pastry making. I do sometimes weigh things because I do have a few old recipes on hand that were given to me. I should weigh all the ingredients, I guess. Except for ordinary cooking.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Wyandotte said:


> .................... I do sometimes weigh things because I do have a few old recipes on hand that were given to me. I should weigh all the ingredients, I guess. Except for ordinary cooking.


Again, weighing ingredients is much much faster and more accurate therefore consistent. Just think how much easier it is to make typical bread dough using baker's percentages than converting cup measures chen changing the amount of dough that you're gonna' make.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Norcalbaker59 said:


> Butter matters. Higher fat butters work best. But don't use a pliable brand like kerrygold. It's too soft and makes a greasy crust. I prefer Pulgra.
> 
> Cultured butters will work well, but some brands like Vermont Creamery with 86% butterfat can be greasy. I like Trader Joe's cultured butter, but it's salted, so reduce the amount of salt if you try it..........................


I'm noticing that my pate brisees made with Kerrygold seem greasier, that the butter softens more readily during rolling out.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'm finding that dough using Kerrygold is more easliy rolled out and splits less. The dough will taste and feel a bit butteryier.


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## Shadokat (Nov 8, 2017)

Home cook here, but I've made many successful pie crusts over the last 30 years. I thought I knew what I was doing until about two months ago, when I tried something new and it blew my mind. The method detailed above by norcalbaker59 was something I had never heard of until recently. I was looking for a new pie crust recipe because I had run out of unsalted butter. I found a recipe with 3 ingredients - salted butter, flour, and ice water. Sounded strange, but the method employed was exactly like the one described above. I've never done that before but I was intrigued. I'm just a home cook, as I said, and I don't have the money for high end ingredients or the knowledge to mix different types of flour. I used King Arthur AP flour, Challenge salted butter, and ice water from the tap. This was hands down _THE BEST _pie crust I have ever made in my life. But I'm not referring to the flavor so much as the flaky texture. The flavor was delicious and my family raved over it. But I will always make my pie crust on the kitchen counter now, flattening the butter with my hand, cutting it up with the scraper, knowing that if I keep going the water will mix in and I will get the texture right. No matter what recipe I may choose to use, this will be my method of choice from now on. Norcalbaker59, thank you for reminding me of that wonderful pie crust making method at exactly the right time (holiday baking time).


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## harpua (May 4, 2005)

norcalbaker59 said:


> Egg white is used to seal the crust so filling want make the bottom soggy.
> 
> I made pie crust every day for weeks until I got it right and consistent.
> 
> ...


I just have to say: Wow! Read this a few days ago and decided to change it up and use your recipe. I made a quince pear pie to run tonight as a special. It truly is delicious. It puffed up a bit like puff and had an amazing structure. It was tender but not crumbly. Thanks!


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