# Konosuke wa-gyuto first impression



## fish boy (Aug 31, 2011)

Received my Konosuke 270mm Wa-Gyuto this weekend (thank you CKtG).  After slicing one hard Granny Smith apple and mincing an onion faster and more consistently than I ever thought possible, I'm thrilled.

Was intimidated at first before I even opened the box at the length of the box, and then the length of the knife.  This is my first 270mm.

After just 5 minutes, however, it felt like an extension of my arm.   Sharp enough to shave the hair on my arm out of the box.  Well balanced for my hand and my grip.  Only gripe is that the horn ferrule and the handle are not perfectly flush on the top and bottom of the handle.  Both sides are flush.  I attribute this to some minor shrinkage across the grain in the handle.  Not a big deal, but very noticeable (and given the nature of mixed materials with wood, perhaps unavoidable).

Was also a little apprehensive about the thinness of the blade.  Shouldn't have been concerned.  It's just perfect.  No (noticeable) flex and it's weight is a joy.

Thank you to BDL, Mark at CKtG and all the others who shared their experience and advice on comparisons.  You helped me make an informed decision that I'm very happy I made.

I fear now I may become addicted.. God Damn the pusher man.

Fish Boy


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## mimmogram (Nov 29, 2011)

Hmmmmmmmm..... I think I want one!!!! Lol! Dear hubby will hurt me if I buy any more knives... I have 5 sets already!!!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

A laser is a thing apart. If you're into knives -- and you obviously are -- it's something you should definitely try. Your husband can live with your tool purchases.

I love my Konosukes deliriously and recommend accordingly to anyone with the skills... but don't know if they're easy to purchase in Oz.

If not, they're not the only great brand of lasers. Several are available direct from Japan, which might things a lot easier. While I don't own one, I'm very high on Tadatsuna's "European" series. They're available in a really wonderful version of G3 (stainless) or in White #2 (White might be special order).

BDL


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## ccoppola82 (Nov 30, 2011)

I have been lurking around for a week or so and I picked up the set BDL talked about.  I picked up a 150 ss petty, an hd 270 sujihiki, and the 240 wa-gyuto is out of stock but I should get a reminder email.   I could not believe how light they are.  I used them out of the box and they made quick work of whatever I put in front of them.  Also thanks BDL for the info.  Super happy with them so far.


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## mimmogram (Nov 29, 2011)

Wow!!! They are rather expensive over here!!! :-/

might have to buy a couple just before tax time so I can claim the $$ straight back... It's about the only way I could talk the hubby into it!!! (or I could just not tell him....)


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. As it says in my signature, _"I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.", _but in regards to: 


> Wow!!! They are rather expensive over here!!! :-/


You don't have to buy the first $300 laser that you see and/or is recommended. Now Jebus forbid, I'm not backtalking anything _*BDL*_ says, but there are lots of others you can look at, and not have to pay for so dearly.


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## mimmogram (Nov 29, 2011)

Have a set on order now... Itching to get it!!

what can I say?? They just look so funky!!! Lol


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

CKtG just got a newer version of the HD that's flatter; it's basically shaped like a Masamoto KS.  I'd love to pick on up but I just bought a Nubatama 240mm Wa-Gyuto a couple weeks ago...my toy fund is basically blown for the rest of the year.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

IceMan said:


> OK. As it says in my signature, _"I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.", _but in regards to:
> 
> You don't have to buy the first $300 laser that you see and/or is recommended. Now Jebus forbid, I'm not backtalking anything _*BDL*_ says, but there are lots of others you can look at, and not have to pay for so dearly.


Iceman do you have any links?

I am seriously looking at the Konosuke HD and always interested in a better value purchase


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I'm interested to hear on this issue, too.... BDL himself said he got the HD in part because of how he talks about stainless but only was using carbon (Sabs) at prior to getting those.  The Konosuke White Steel gyutos are a savings, for starters.  It's at *that* point I wonder about the Sakai Yusuke carbons vs the Konosuke carbons.  I don't know what other lasers.... (IceMan?)

But then, also, I think it was LennyD on another thread who expressed interest in the semi-stainless, or low-stain carbons.  And I don't know what alternatives are out there, regarding that steel, that are lasers.  I have the CarboNext, which is a thin knife but not a real laser.  I don't think the steel is as good as the Konosuke in spite of being another low-stain carbon tool steel (?), and the profile is less good, too.  (They're great price-point knives, if you can sharpen; and maybe re-profile -- though that wasn't an issue for me).

Anyway, I'm certainly not ready to spend $300 on another gyuto.  I wish I were!


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. First off, _*I apologize*_ for making a rather obtuse and opaque statement. I am not in any way a knife geek like so many others here are. I'm just a chef. I've spent the last year not really knowing what _"lasers"_ really were. Someone gave me an _"idea"_ of what _"starter entry-level"_ lasers might be, and I've since been told _"NO, wrongamundo"_, in simple words. I'm not a guy who's gonna spend $300 on a knife. My point was that _"if you look, there's gotta be something cheaper than $300"_. I was kinda throwing out some bait that I expected someone who does know, to tell us what knives those may be. I guess I apologize for that too. Now once again, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin', that in and for what I do, cook professionally, there is no where near as much over-the-top love and excitement for knives among professional chefs as there is with home cooks who have lots of money. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, I'm not calling anyone out. Hobbies and interests are great. We all have them. I'm just having conversation, including my side.

As an example of really stupid stuff, here is a part of discussion I had with an idiot a year or so ago:

Quote:


> If you have any decent kitchen knives (and I ain't talking Chicago Cutlery) ..........





> OK, just for the hell of it, I'm going to ask,
> 
> Exactly what is wrong with _Chicago Cutlery_ knives? I'm curious, really. I've been using CC knives since I was a kid. I'm moderately accomplished now with a decent enough reputation. I've never had any real problem with the brand.





> In the world of high-end cutlery, Chicago Cutlery is held in about the same regard as Yellow Tail is here. _(Wine Geek board)_


He then showed me at least one(1) $350 knife, told me to go check out some _"knife boards"_, and called me a nasty name. LOL. He was called out for that after by other posters. Anyway, I ended with this:

Quote:


> I'm happy with my skills, my skills that will be there with any brand of knife I have in my hands, even if it's only a _Ginsu_.
> I can out cook guys like you even if all I had to use was the plastic cutlery from _Wendy's_.


My point is that we all look at things from our different viewpoint, based on where it is we stand looking. One place may or may not be any better than any other, just different. I don't think that anything I put on a plate would taste any different depending on what knife I used. I would love however, to have some of these knives that you all talk about though. I just can't afford any.

Just to show that _I'm not_ all cheap talk, w/ no respect for you guys that like pricey knives, I'll give you this example of my money crazyness. Along with all the other things I do fantastically _(or so I wish to believe)_, that I don't make any living at, I'm a professional jazz musician. I have three(3) horns totaling replacement value north of $15,000. Do these make me play/sound any better? Maybe, but probably not compared to any other quality horns.

Anyway, I guess again, that that was a really long drawn out post to basically say _"NO, I don't have any links or examples of cheaper laser knives"_. Sorry.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Tease.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

BTW, Lee Morgan might be my favorite. (Though I didn't ask what horn).  Or Curtis Fuller.  Or John Coltrane. Or somebody else.  (Alto? -- what horn do you play?)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Understood, and just to be clear I was not calling you out, but rather just looking for more information LMAO

Not sure if I should still feel so "new" in the J knife world but somehow as confusing as the entry point was initially the higher end products seem to be so much more confusing and almost mystical that it makes the original decisions seem almost juvenile or simple in comparison.

Consider just taking whatever you have learned from personal experience, and then add what you have seen here etc and then go do a search on google or eBay for japanese chefs knives and you learn mighty fast that there are another hundred or so possibilities you never even thought of.

There are just so many brands, styles, profiles, steels, and preferences that you would literally need to spends years buying, using, sharpening and comparing to really have a true handle on it all, but then in most likeliness there would have been enough changes during that time that it all has changed already 

The point being that having a resource like this forum is very valuable to anyone looking for information no matter a new home cook or seasoned professional.

Remember we once were all happy to some extent with what we were using before we found enlightenment 

I am still feeling like a kid on Christmas morning just thinking about how much better any of my choices for my next higher end knife will be compared to the ones I have now that totally blew my socks off when I first got them.

Is that making sense?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

.... and btw, "I've got a guy..."   Well, I don't.  But I found a guy on yelp who is local to me, a sharpener.

He sharpens on belts at a low enough speed that he doesn't heat them up overly much.  Gets a consistent, toothy edge.  I like my own sharpening much better.  But for a few bucks he sharpens.  He also makes knives that are super inexpensive.  So for $12 I have freakni' sharp, wooden-handled chef's knife.  I don't love it because it's too wide, and it's hard for me to sharpen.  I can take it back to the dude who made it an have it sharpened for $4.00.... and if I wanted $10 knife, could have gotten the same thing with a groovy plastic handle.

But seriously, IceMan would do very well with it, and outcook me in my wildest dreams I'm sure.  TOTALLY sure.  Someone (I don't remember who) said on one these forums, "hey, it's a handle and edge.  It cuts stuff. Spend $12, you'll be ok".

I won't shill for "the guy", but seriously, if someone wants a $10 or $12 knife (last I checked), PM me and I'll let you know.  On the other hand,  I think it was IceMan who said "just get a knife that has "NSF"  the side.  You'll be ok".  Or something like that.

(Sorry if it wasn't IceMan, but I think that's the spirit of IceMan's post at least!)

Meanwhile, I can't afford a $300 knife either, just now.  But I like a knife that makes prep more fun, and I like a knife that takes and keeps a better edge, more easily.  So... hobbyist in that sense.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Meanwhile, I can't afford a $300 knife either, just now. But I like a knife that makes prep more fun, and I like a knife that takes and keeps a better edge, more easily.


I hear you on that, and after trying to put aside that much cash for the purchase and going into it several times lol I am still going to end up spending less on my next knife than $300 as I am still selling myself on just how much better can a $200 knife be than a $80 one.

Guess I could just throw it onto a charge etc, but find I appreciate things more since I stopped doing that "instant gratification" BS thing so many seem to do 

Bet you would not be surprised that my friends get pissed when I remind them they don't own much but Visa, Mastercard, and their mortgage company have a lot of nice things


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I have a $175.00 knife (or $165.00 when I bought it).   That'd be $10 or $20 cheaper in 240mm, I suppose, just to compare apples to apples. So "next step", unfortunately, is probably a $300 knife, should I ever want to go there.  Upgrade-itits being what it is.  Or else a somewhat less expensive carbon "laser".  But then we're still talking about a Konosuke white steel or something like it.

Which is why I'm curious about that vs. a Yusuke Sakai white steel.  Which... I *think* has the same geometry, the same steel (? - not sure if it's heat treated the same and the geometry and all that). And then I have the issue that I'm likely to spend the extra bucks on the Konosuke *anyway* just out of loyalty to my local shop.  Because that's where I actually got see and hold one, and out of loyalty to where I learned the most about knives -- at least, there (in person) and here (on-line).

At that point we're still talking about expensive freakin' knives.  And *maybe* I like the idea of the low-stain HD carbon enough that the Konosuke is the only choice anyway.  Maybe.

Only other knives I lust after as still more money.  And like IceMan says... he could, no doubt, cook better than I with plastic knives.  So it's hobbyism.

I will say, feeding hobbyism... my thin but-not-laser-thin Yoshihiro may become victim of reprofiling.  I'd like to try to convex it a bit, give it better food-release.  If that goes well I may just stick with what I have for a long time.  If that doesn't go well I might be saving up for a $300 knife!


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I have/play two(2) trombones (tenor/bass) and a bass trumpet. all _Bach Stradivarius_. A quality enough brand. I like them and think they're cool.

If I could buy new knives right now it would be these, all based on _"*coolness* to me"_. The complete overall value to that, not so much probably. The _"*coolness* factor"_ also includes the relative inexpensiveness.

   

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/topost.html

I don't know which I'd like better, the 120 or 150 petty, the same w/ the 210 or 240 gyuto. I've almost always used an 8-in chef knife so that's what I'm used to. I just like santoku knives. I really can't give you a reason why, I grab them before a chef knife sometimes. I just do. I love using a nice nakiri when cutting up lots of veggies. It makes me feel good, like being w/ the Asian guys in the videos. One(1) thing that I would question if I got those knives right now was if those labels come off the handles easy enough. That's the first thing I would do.

On the other side of the coin, I'd get these:



http://www.cutleryandmore.com/cutlery-clearance

They've got a very _"classic"_ look. I like that. They're very close to the same look as _Chicago Cutlery_. They're also very inexpensive. I think their newest line looks really nice too. _Lamsonsharp Vintage_. I'm sure it's nowhere as cheap as the "Walnut" stuff I posted though.

I apologize for the serious tangent here, but this thread is two(2) weeks old. That's long enough I figure _(any excuse, right?)_.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I think about those Lamsons for xmas gifts, too.  Seem very good for the bucks, and look nice.  And the (clearance) Henckels Twin Cermax from C&M, too, which I also learned of from someone on this forum.

I had, until today, a santoku.  A Spyderco.  From what I understand, it's something of a collectors piece now, since they're not made anymore.  It was around $35 or so when I got it.  Maybe $40.  It's been in a drawer for too long, so I decided to make a Christmas gift of it to someone who will appreciate it.  It's MBS-26 steel, so that leads me to believe it's a Masahiro knife, branded for Spyderco back when.  At the time I bought it, I knew a little bit about folding knives ("killing knives") and nothing about kitchen knives at all.  So m coolness-factor was just "cool! Spyderco makes a kitchen knife!"

And Curtis Fuller.  Trombone.  I can't believe what he does on Art Blakey's "Free For All".  Articulation on the thing makes it sound like a trumpet.  Only really low.  (This from a fan's perspective -- I don't know how ANY of you guys can play those things.  I understand strings better!)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

IceMan said:


> I have/play two(2) trombones (tenor/bass) and a bass trumpet. all _Bach Stradivarius_. A quality enough brand. I like them and think they're cool.
> 
> If I could buy new knives right now it would be these, all based on _"*coolness* to me"_. The complete overall value to that, not so much probably. The _"*coolness* factor"_ also includes the relative inexpensiveness.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention the Tojiros above as I was on the email list for the 210 Gyuto for when they came back into stock, and once I saw they raised the price over 20% for the new shipment I let it tick me off and decided it was time to spend a little more on something a bit higher in the quality/performance level.

From everything I keep reading on the Konosuke HD it is sounding like the real value leader in the $200 range (looking at 240 or 270 Gyuto) and is what originally got me to this thread.

I think that the same value driven thinking that makes those Tojiro's so appealing is also making the Konosuke so attractive.

I mean where does one put or create the different value when going higher up the price/performance scale? I had questioned the very idea of there possibly being the same value to higher priced knives when I was first introduced to J knives over a year ago, and still am skeptical if the bang for the buck can be as extreme as it was going from previous Henckels Pro S to the Tojiro DP and Fujiwara FKM, but since I am expecting to pull the trigger on either the Konosuke HD or Hattori HD on Monday I sure as hell hope they will be worth the extra investment.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> CKtG just got a newer version of the HD that's flatter; it's basically shaped like a Masamoto KS. I'd love to pick on up but I just bought a Nubatama 240mm Wa-Gyuto a couple weeks ago...my toy fund is basically blown for the rest of the year.


Do you believe that the new version is worth the extra $73 over the standard one?

I do prefer the looks of the handle on the new one, and know it is a extra cost over the std handle, and also think it is the boring look of the blah colored handles that turn me off to the WA handles in the first place, but am not sure it is worth the extra $ and would likely go with the western handle in the corian option.

But hey thats just me lol.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

The new one is is the "Funayuki" one, yes? That's (clearly, no?) an attempt at giving us the Murray Carter profile.  Which if I'm not mistaken is flatter-still than the Masa KS.

There does seem to be a vocal sub-group of knife nuts on other forums for whom "flatter is better" to a great degree.  Some of that depends on cooking style, what kinds of cuts, all that.  I love the way that profile looks, but I think for European style cuts, the profile of the original makes more sense.  I'm still trying to work all that out -- how much push-cutting or under what circumstances, modifying the pinch grip, all that. 

Anyway, I'd love to have either of those knives, but given my work to learn a "French profile" -- without having used either of them to cook, so just on the surface -- it apears to me the "original" less expensive version makes more sense.  Now a true knife nut with money to spare might get both.... and I could be wrong altogether.  It's happened a couple times before.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wag please don't take this wrong but I have to be honest that I am more confused after reading that than before


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Sorry... I'll go at it once more and if that doesn't help, I'll just apologize for spreading my own muddle. Didn't mean to get any on ya!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

No prob at all.

Were you meaning the difference in profile may make a difference but cant be sure since you might think differently after using one?

Well that is what I got from it lol, but sometimes my skull can be a bit thick too


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I'm sure the different profile makes a difference. But yes, I'm not sure exactly how and how much having not used them (so that's part of what I meant, yeah). But I also have suspicions that the difference is "worse" for Euro-style cooks. Maybe better for others.

Ok, let me first admit to being super-provisional about this. I haven't developed sufficient technique to make any real claims, so much of this is theoretical, what I think I'm working toward doing, with my understanding such as it is.

A "good profile" depends in part on what your technique is. A big bellied knife, like some of the Shuns and most of the German knives, encourage more tip-down, lots of handle pumping, "powering through", less agility. A "paper cutter" or "rocking" movement.

A more French profile knife, like most other Japanese gyutos, is a more agile thing, and if making classic Euro cut (juliennes and dices and batonets and and....) reward what BDL's blog describes as "guillotine and glide". That's also a quieter way to cut that chopping all-vertically (and quiet is a value, I imagine more so in a crowded restaurant kitchen). But these knives, while considerably flatter than the German profiles, are still not particularly flat. Some Japanese gyutos are *much* flatter. (Let alone the traditional Japanese knives).

So while up to a point -- if you're starting from the point of view, say, of a Wusthof user -- "flatter is better". But if you're doing a "guillotine and glide" type motion, trying to master that, then at some point flatter is worse again. BDL talks about the Sabs having the "platonic ideal" profile.

If you want to do more push-cutting, less "glide" and more "guillotine", in other words, you may like flatter still. And there are other grips that might be used, or pinching in a slightly different spot on a wa-handled knife. Certainly flatter is better if you're really chopping with no, or almost-no, "glide" (forward motion, toward the far end of the board). Or almost certainly. I'm confused about why a nakiri is shaped the way it is, given that this sort of motion is really how those are used. But you get no tip-down at all on those. And the nakiri is a tangent, better to wait for other posts.

All that said, it seems to me, from an unscientific "sample" -- just impressions reading other forums -- there's a lot of "flatter is better" taste out there. And certainly I've seen some videos of people who had insanely fast and precise and beautiful technique that was all "guillotine" pretty much. Chop chop chop, vertical movement, we've got 78 paper thin slices of cucumber. But it seems to me that's coming at it with a bunch of "asian cooking technique" influence.

That all said... IF the Sab profile is a "platonic ideal" for Euro cooking, the new Konosukes are farther from that, and flatter.

The Masamoto KS looks flatter too, but I recall some of BDL's posts in the past (maybe on foodieforums, maybe here) talking about how the shape of the blade along the edge is less flat than you may think just looking at the whole profile. It's a step closer to the French profile of the Sabs than it appears in pictures. I'm not sure if I have that right, so don't let me say with any certainty that I'm characterizing either the knife or BDL's description perfectly accurately.

And the "new" Konosukes are clearly much flatter than the "old" ones. The fact that CKTG says in the description that they're "funayuki" shaped means, to me, Mark asked Konosuke to copy the profile of Murray Carter's knives. The funayuki is Carter's gyuto, and from what people say they're magically great knives. And there's a large niche of knife nuts who prefer that profile. Some of them, I'm sure, because it better suits their technique, and they really know what they're doing. Some of them because it's "cool" and there's a fashionability element to it.

I sort of prefer the look of the funayuki shape, myself, if I were just looking at it. But I think it encourages a less classical Euro technique.

Why am I uncertain? Well, because I"m not a very good technician in the first place, and were I to learn to be a particularly good cutter on a flatter knife, then that would be my "platonic ideal" no doubt. But I think BDL has it right, for smooth and efficient and stress-free (in shoulders and elbows and wrists, stress-free) cutting, a bit more curve than the funayuki would be helpful.

If you're cooking Asian cuisine, the cuts are often very different. Have a look at this video for example (with a kamagata usuba): 



 . That starts with a Katsuramuki (so in hand) but then goes on to on-the-board cuts. Different knife (flatter knife), different technique, different cuts from classical Euro. Another example: 



. (Thanks to Jon Broida for hipping us to that video, and the Japanese Knife Society videos in general). If you learned japanese cooking/cutting first, a flatter profile makes ALL kinds of sense.

So the new "funayuki" Konosukes are uber-cool looking. I want one because of coolness. And there's a niche for a Carter-looking-knife that is both awesome and cheaper than a real Carter. But maybe it's a further step away from the "Platonic ideal" profile for western cooks, or at least some of us western cooks, than the original Konosukes we've been lusting after.

Dos that clear it up? I mean clear up *my* intentions? I'm just waiting for someone (Jon? BDL? anyone?) who knows what they're talking about to tell me how I'm completely wrong about some or all of it!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Dos that clear it up? I mean clear up *my* intentions? I'm just waiting for someone (Jon? BDL? anyone?) who knows what they're talking about to tell me how I'm completely wrong about some or all of it!


Strange but somehow I know your not the only one to ever think that


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Ha! But did I clarify what I was trying to say about choosing between the Konosuke profiles?

Or was that just what (on other forums) is called a FRAT? [i.e., "F--- Reading All That!"].


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_HOLY JEBUS !!! *WAGSTAFF ..... *_I had to get up and come back twice to read all of that. _I'm sure ... I'm positive ... I'm completely certain_ that you made and included all kinds of good points in there though. I still gotta go back and re-read what I've re-read already. _*LOL @ ME.*_


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Me.  Talk too much. Often.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think the aim was more to mimic the Masamota KS, but I could be wrong.  The "new shape" Konosuke will probably be next knife I buy, except maybe for the 240mm Tojiro Shiro ITK if it comes out soon.  The "new shape" eliminates the only minor reservation I've had about buying an HD.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

What was your minor reservation, Phaedrus? Too much belly?

That's the whole decision point I'm talking about.  (Speciality handles I understand, too....)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> I think the aim was more to mimic the Masamota KS, but I could be wrong. The "new shape" Konosuke will probably be next knife I buy, except maybe for the 240mm Tojiro Shiro ITK if it comes out soon. The "new shape" eliminates the only minor reservation I've had about buying an HD.


Curious as to what your minor reservation was as well.?

Hope it wasn't something I am going to find an issue (I suspect not moving up from Fujiwara FKM, but who knows lol) as one is on order and on it's way already 

Only issue I have now is that the one I was really after was showing out of stock when ordered, but tonight is showing in stock again 

Really wanted to add and try a WA handled knife etc, but guess it will have to wait until next purchase.

Should there any real expectation of a different experience or feel than that described by all those reflecting on their experience with the WA handles opposed to the YO ones?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Wag got it right.

The shape of the knife favors a particular type of action, but doesn't impose it.  If you impose your style on a knife which isn't really well suited to your action, you'll end up fighting the knife.  This is more true of the knife you use for chopping than  of others.

German profiles favor a lot of rock -- what I call "handle pumping."  That means you keep the tip way down, as close to the board as possible, and when the tip hits the board as the blade goes through the food, the cook rocks the handle down.  There are a couple of characteristics... keeping the tip on the board as much as possible, and a tight, "powerful" grip.  It's a useful action if you don't keep your knives sharp -- and there's nothing wrong with it if you do.  Personally, I find it tiring; but you're not me.

Flat profiles favor push cutting -- which means you lift the knife off completely off the board and bring it almost straight down.  Guys who learned to cut in Asian kitchens do this a lot.  It's probably got the potential for the most speed, but makes a lot of noise.  The chef who taught me to use a knife was perpetually drunk or hung-over and would kill you for that.  Hell, I even whisk quietly.  Not to wander from the point.  Push cutting is also very popular with Asian knife hobbyists who don't have any knife skills to speak of.  A lot of people favor a nakiri or Santoku when they want to do just a little prep.  That doesn't have a lot of logic behind it if all you consider is the difficulty in taking out a knife, using it, and putting it back.  It does, if you're a natural push cutter and want something light.  In the case of someone shopping, if you're a natural push cutter... Yes.  Look for something flattish.

The French style I describe in Guillotine and Glide is sort of a compromise.  It makes good use of a profile flat enough to be agile, but curved enough to chop "tip down." 

There is no best way. 

I haven't been around much and am sorry I couldn't talk more about the Konosuke HDs.  I don't know anything about the western handled ones, but am super in love with the wa knives.  There are quite a few really good yo and wa lasers, but I haven't had the opportunity to use very many of them.  If you're looking for someone who knows super thinness, you should probably invest in a phone call with Jon Broida. 

Lasers aren't for everyone.  I know you've heard that from me, from others here, and if you've been looking around other forums you've probably heard it from a lot of other people too.  If you don't keep them square to the cut and to the board, they flex and bind.  So that skill is either something you need going in, or something you're willing to learn.  Like a lot of other knife skills, it's mostly in the grip... so it's pretty easy.  That said, if you're not specifically looking ultra thin, they're are a ton of really good very thin knives on the market. 

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> Wag got it right.
> 
> The shape of the knife favors a particular type of action, but doesn't impose it. If you impose your style on a knife which isn't really well suited to your action, you'll end up fighting the knife. This is more true of the knife you use for chopping than of others.
> 
> ...


Not sure where to start but have to start some place lol so not in any specific order here.

I think the laser will work well for me because since finding some of your posts, reviews and such I have been working on and improving my version (I call it that because I am not certain I have it down yet) of the glide and guillotine as well as lightening up on my grip a whole lot, and have found my cuts to much more finesse like. By that I mean the combination of a lighter grip and different technique along with finally being able to actually work with sharp edges all the time has made a big difference in results, speed, and especially comfort.

In comparison though I did still slice and chop things up with my Henckels in the past it was a lot more work, less enjoyable, and did not produce the same results.

My other thoughts were that if I was so impressed with the performance and sharpness of the Tojiro and Fujiwara and put a large of the why upon their being so much thinner than the Henckels and the Konosuke in increase in "thinner" and so much more it just has to fit me better. Well at least I really hope so.

My real concern right now is that the WA handled one I really wanted to get being out of stock kind of forced my hand into the YO handle. I hope that since it would have been the first WA handle I have (well my bread knife is WA but that's very different) used I will not know any better etc, but then again I am one of those that may let it haunt me and have considered swapping it out when the one I wanted is in stock. Then again not using it would also be tough so who knows lol.

Now I think I misread you when I got the thought that it may not be a good chopper, and from everything I have seen it seems to do a really good job chopping. Let me know if I got this right.

I do have to admit that I did not fully understand just how "whippy" it may be, but really need to have it in my hand to know if it is to a point or level that will be an issue.

Since I am not planning on selling the Fujiwara gyuto (I really do not see any reason to do so since comparing what I would get to it's performance makes it an even better value than when new) I will have a back up for anything where a different knife would be needed so this is not a concern.

The one that's coming is actually the 240mm as even though I am sure I would be just as comfortable with a 270mm (originally learned on big ole Woostie) the slightly smaller length fits my available work space a lot better, but again would have honestly preferred the 270.

So there is a bit of compromise in the higher end purchase just like in the entry level knives from last year, and I only hope I am as pleasantly surprised as I was back then!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Whippy means it's flexible.  If you've got it in the cut and rack it to one side, or unintentionally twist it, ungood things will happen.  However, if you're not in a great hurry and you're working on your technique, those things won't be problems.  The advances you've made as result of working on your technique are exactly as to be expected.  The main thing is that as your skills improve, prep become increasingly less of a burden and you open yourself to using your knife skills to improve the looks, tastes, and textures of your food. 

There's really not that much difference between wa and yo handles in terms of how the handle handles.  If you've got a good grip it will easily adapt to either, and it doesn't take much "getting used to" to make the switch in either direction.  In my experience at least, I can tell the difference between good and bad handles but don't care whether they're yo or wa.

A few years ago, Japanese manufacturers used to beef up yo blades at the tang -- at least compared to wa knives at the machi -- and consequently yo knives were thicker, especially at the back.  In fact, I don't know if it's fair to say that there was such a thing as a yo laser.  However, that's very much changed. 

I think you made a very good purchase and am really looking forward to your reviews.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

IceMan said:


> OK. First off, _*I apologize*_ for making a rather obtuse and opaque statement. I am not in any way a knife geek like so many others here are. I'm just a chef. I've spent the last year not really knowing what _"lasers"_ really were. Someone gave me an _"idea"_ of what _"starter entry-level"_ lasers might be, and I've since been told _"NO, wrongamundo"_, in simple words. I'm not a guy who's gonna spend $300 on a knife. My point was that _"if you look, there's gotta be something cheaper than $300"_. I was kinda throwing out some bait that I expected someone who does know, to tell us what knives those may be. I guess I apologize for that too. Now once again, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin', that in and for what I do, cook professionally, there is no where near as much over-the-top love and excitement for knives among professional chefs as there is with home cooks who have lots of money. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, I'm not calling anyone out. Hobbies and interests are great. We all have them. I'm just having conversation, including my side.
> 
> As an example of really stupid stuff, here is a part of discussion I had with an idiot a year or so ago:
> 
> ...


I guess I did not read that in its entirety the first time (sort of like wags other post lol) but saw some interesting points I wanted to comment on.

First I totally agree skill trumps all. I can give examples in everything from offroad racing (pro level rider on fully stock machine embarrassing A class riders on fully customized $30k+ machines) drag racing (large aftermarket supply store owners car losing to local guys beater proving all the best parts in the world do no good when not installed correctly) and even in the cooking knife world as when I was in a professional kitchen the one guy did some seriously impressive work and with a knife that would be considered blunt to most on these boards.

With that said I have to be honest that I would have loved to have had one of my current knives available when I did prep/line work. Compared to the mis mosh of various old knives I worked with and learned on etc the cheapest Tojiro I have would have been a blessing from heaven. Still much as I would have completely appreciated a better sharper knife in retrospect I like all the others made what we had work and kept them sharp as we could etc, and honestly just plain did not know any better.

Still I agree with you as the food was prepared, and presented, and enjoyed by all so it worked just fine without all the high end cutlery.

Now to keep things in perspective even though it seems both the entry level brands has seen a serious increase in price this year (just paid $49 for the same DP petty I got for $29 last year) they are still an insane bargain when you compare a Pro S 8" chefs is selling for $159 at some places and a DP 210mm gyuto can be had around $79 and the 240mm being available under $100 and the 270mm slightly over shows there are still some very good knives that are not only performers but also pro kitchen friendly etc

So even though I agree that things get insane quickly in regards to price and not all the knives discussed on the boards are really good choices for a busy cook/chef as a workhorse etc (no way I would take anything like a Konosuke to work if I cooked again, gamble losing a $220+ knife no way lol) it also does not demand every pro use a budget priced soft steel blade either.

I also agree with your comment on the plastic knives etc and have used knives when away from home that were not much better, BUT did improvise most times by finding a way to at least make them somewhat sharp. During vacation this year I amused everyone when I took all the "Cheapo" knives from the drawer of the time share we were at and put an edge on them on the backs of the china cups from the cabinets. They were even more amused when it actually worked lol.

We all find our way even if by different ways or means etc.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> Whippy means it's flexible. If you've got it in the cut and rack it to one side, or unintentionally twist it, ungood things will happen. However, if you're not in a great hurry and you're working on your technique, those things won't be problems. The advances you've made as result of working on your technique are exactly as to be expected. The main thing is that as your skills improve, prep become increasingly less of a burden and you open yourself to using your knife skills to improve the looks, tastes, and textures of your food.
> 
> There's really not that much difference between wa and yo handles in terms of how the handle handles. If you've got a good grip it will easily adapt to either, and it doesn't take much "getting used to" to make the switch in either direction. In my experience at least, I can tell the difference between good and bad handles but don't care whether they're yo or wa.
> 
> ...


From best I could see in various pics (and there are not many I could find on the YO) there does not look to be much of a diff in thickness of the blad at handle etc, but the dimensions I could find showed about .1 to .4 mm depending on who's info you believe.

I mean it is a very attractive corian handle and will stand out from the crowd of mostly all black YO handles in the drawer etc (well one or two utility knives are maple) but the Konosuke really looks different or special in WA and I honestly did want to see and feel what if any difference there was. I guess it can wait until I decide on a slicer (debating Suji or long Petty) later in the year, but hope I dont let the wondering get the best of me lol.

Also I have not found myself adding any side or twisting torque to my cuts in a long while so I do not thing that will be an issue (crosses fingers did not jink self )


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_LOL_ *LennyD*. Talk to me on the side if you want to trade drag-racing stories. I did that for a while too _(back in my snotty-punk I still live w/ my mother days)_. Anyway, don't read too much into what I said. I can't really cook any better with _"plastic Wendy's cutlery"_, just better than the idiot I was arguing with. My main-line go-to chefs knife is a 1974 vintage _Chicago Cutlery_. I'm sure it out-classes the replacement of today. It's nothing more than an ordinary knife, that is very special to me. I can get a very sharp edge on it, that's all that counts. The fact that nobody is gonna swipe it counts too though.

As for the price changes of J-knives ... maybe remember that they just had a big nasty act of God over there causing some situational difficulties.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I am not going to claim I am the right person to figure out international inflation etc, but I think it is as much to do with unusual things as it is just normal increases and partly from the retailers or etailers etc. but hey it does increase the value of our used ones too /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

PM if you want to share those racing stories.

Now the special things that make an old knife well special is a whole other subject entirely.

I wont steal the thread and send it in another direction but basically I am one of those people who really appreciate old quality items of many kinds, but also know the need to keep up with changes and improvements, but the problem I do have is with so many of the newer products is they are not of any similar kind of quality as the old ones were.

Be it my pre 1964 Puma White Hunter that is in almost new condition (and I am not sure if it is more of a shame to damage it, or just not use it lol) or even the typical everyday item of that time there was a different amount of time, effort, and "self" put into making most of them than anything most regular people find affordable today. I guess it is a sign or result of the many changes we have seen over time, and even though many of these items are older than I am etc I can see that though profit was always the main purpose of business etc the balance of profit to quality has changed greatly over time, and the change did not favor quality.

So just like so many other products I agree that your old CC chefs is most likely worlds ahead of the cheap POS third world nation item that is currently replacing it as that is the story with so many products it is sad more people have not figured out there old one is so much better than the new one that there is no justice in buying new.

Sorry for the rant, but if too many more of the items and brands that were once known for quality (what built the brand in the first place) are tricking the consumer by supplying well basically "Inexpensive Chinese Junk" under their brand name I may just lose it.

Maybe this is part of why I am so drawn to quality J knives.


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

Lenny-older may be better than today's model but many if not most items purchased over the last 15 years or so have origins associated with China (either manufactured, parts, or raw materials) or other 3rd world countries.

We are a global society now and from a business perspective if your competitors are making things in China then you are likely at a disadvantage if you aren't.

The computer you are typing on is an example... chances are it's either assembled in China-Asia, it's parts or it's materials are (and yes it's much better than models of 20 years ago). Those IPhones that have people waiting in line over night to get-made in China... so with so much precision that goes into computers, phones, etc.- I have no doubt that such a low tech item such as a piece of steel that cuts can be duplicated the same if not even better in China or anyplace else.

I also remember back in the day when anything made in Japan was considered inferior-how things change over time.

edit-I'm a little sceptical about most product hype as I come from a sales background and realize that people can be influnced to buy and in many cases over pay for anything whether it's a knife, car, tulip bulb, or a rock.

I'm not immune, I own a black 97 Harley FLHT which if compared mechanically to today's bikes (whether Asian or Euorpean) is a POS and a money pit but the coolness factor is satisfying. :>


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi John

I started to answer this in some great detail and describe how our legislators have sold us out over the last 30-50yrs and actually have purposely created the current off balance out of whack trading conditions that are literally destroying the working class of our country by creating laws that completely favored their major political contributors (call them the top 5%) and this is not only about allowing tariff free products from poor third world nations, but also about manipulating our internal systems, foreign countries policy and dollar values, and acting as some sort of govt extension of corporate America.

It just is way too long and involved to get into on a knife forum, and I decided to scrap it.

Not only did it make me look way too liberal lol, but also was plain just too long and would ruin this thread.

Lets suffice it to say that even though we have been led to believe that the invasion of all these inferior (yes friggin inferior I said lol) products we receive from China, India and all the others are from our choices in buying that in reality these things were decided for us long ago, and was in no way a result of the US consumer.

This was all planned, and I honestly believe not a natural course of anything but greed, profit and manipulation.

If you guys really think this is a good topic please start a thread for it.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Oh what the heck here is one little tid bit of info to think about concerning imports.

Not sure if it is a defect I may have or just something I notice due to my profession involving so many different products from across the globe, but I just notice where things are made etc, and when it comes to textiles I have noticed that since Pakistan allowed our military access to neighboring countries from their borders and just assisting our military in general etc there has been a noticeable increase in the amount and selection of products made there in our retail stores.

Pure coincidence, or an obvious trade of US consumer dollars?

And you thought all our govt. was giving them as a thank you was a few billion in aid /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

On the flip side of this increase since the war on terror was fabricated there seems to have been a decrease in similar items from Turkey.

Read into this what you like, but the point is none of this is by chance or consumer demand.


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

way off topic but I know this from a former leather retailer-most leather goods are from pakistan... and much if it just gets relabled


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## fish boy (Aug 31, 2011)

HOLY COW! All I did was start this thread by saying I liked my new *knife!!!*

(hate to admit this but, I almost cut the end of my pinky off chopping mushrooms one night last week. Not chopping, or even clearing the pieces off the blade.....I just passed my left hand too close to the edge as I was reaching for another shroom. Ow)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Most of the increase in Japanese knife prices is due to the yen/dollar exchange rate; and if politics are involved they're mostly Japan's internal politics which keeps the yen irrationally strong.  Contrapositively, China keeps its currency artificially weak. 

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Fish Boy said:


> HOLY COW! All I did was start this thread by saying I liked my new *knife!!!*
> 
> (hate to admit this but, I almost cut the end of my pinky off chopping mushrooms one night last week. Not chopping, or even clearing the pieces off the blade.....I just passed my left hand too close to the edge as I was reaching for another shroom. Ow)


Ouch. Hate when that happens


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Lenny, did you get a konosuke hd with western handle? Did it arrive already?

There was some discussion on FF a week or two ago where someone essentially said that the konosuke hd western handle is a rebranded kikuichi TKC. I have no idea to the validity of their claims. But if it's essentially the same as the kikuichi TKC, which is essentially the same as a CarboNext, you might have over paid substantially for your knife.

http://www.foodieforums.com/vbullet...240mm-Gyuto-vs-Kikuichi-TKC-240mm-Gyuto/page2


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> There was some discussion on FF a week or two ago where someone essentially said that the konosuke hd western handle is a rebranded kikuichi TKC. *I have no idea to the validity of their claims...*
> 
> http://www.foodieforums.com/vbullet...240mm-Gyuto-vs-Kikuichi-TKC-240mm-Gyuto/page2


[Emphasis added]

The guys who say they're the same (a) don't know; and (b) are full of crap. Nice guys though.

Part of the speculation was based on the false premise that Konesuke's HD alloy and the CarboNext alloy are the same. They aren't. Furthermore, the guy(s) saying they're the same completely ducked the issues of their different weights and "thinness," and never dealt with the issue that their profiles are not identical. And we haven't bothered to talk about handles.

Many knives made in Japan aren't so much made by a single manufacturer as a committee of OEM shops. If two knives are otherwise similar but ordered by different hamono and made by completely different "committees" are they same? Easy answer: They're as similar as they are similar, but not a bit more. Some of the FF guys (KF guys for that matter) don't really get the process or the problem in terms of identity it creates.

Something like the two knives in the conundrum's, the CarboNext and Kikuichi TKC have a lot in common, but aren't the same. In fact, they're different enough so as to be no real problem with determining identity. The Konosuke has very little in common with the other two. All three are one sort of semi-stainless or another, and that seems to be enough to create the confusion.

Not all semi-stainless is created equal -- and even if two knives share a "steel" (as the TKC and CN possibly might), a maker's heat treatment can make a hell of a difference. 


> But if it's essentially the same as the kikuichi TKC, which is essentially the same as a CarboNext, you might have over paid substantially for your knife.


Well it isn't and he didn't.

BDL


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> [Emphasis added]
> 
> The guys who say they're the same (a) don't know; and (b) are full of crap. Nice guys though.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation BDL. I was essentially looking for an explanation like this on the FF forum when I originally asked the question, yet no one really bothered to respond. Well the one guy responded but kind of blew me off and dodged the question.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I wont have it in my hands until tomorrow, and will get back on this sometime between then and Monday sometime.

I can measure it up real well (have a dial caliper) and offer whatever other info would be helpful.

Since I am still leaning towards swapping for a ebony handle wa I am not sure if I will be able to offer much else (not going to use it if swapping out etc).

Then again my ADD and OCD may gang up on me and will have to spend a little time checking it out on the board, but will see what happens.

I really hope it is not that similar to the much less expensive "coodie next" and damn near had a heart attack when I first read racineboxer's post.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeah, take some measurements if you can. Spine at the heel, midway point at heel, right above the edge at the heel and a few more around the midsection of the knife and the tip.

You're getting a great knife, like me you have to protect that OCD tendency to always search for something that isn't quite right. That said... if you've really wanted a wa handle I think you should really think about whether or not you want to return the knife and wait for the one you've really, really, really wanted. I know the feeling, my next knife will be a wa handle.



LennyD said:


> I wont have it in my hands until tomorrow, and will get back on this sometime between then and Monday sometime.
> 
> I can measure it up real well (have a dial caliper) and offer whatever other info would be helpful.
> 
> ...


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I am thinking it will be fine judging by what I have read online and will post some measurements so we can compare to the other brands and more importantly to the WA handle.

Far as the handle goes I do have mixed thoughts as all my current (and previous too) except the kai bread knife are western handles and did want to try a WA but also at this stage it is mostly appearance based opinion and though I don't find all WA handled Knives attractive the konosuke is somehow lean and sexy with the ebony WA handle. Not so much the same with the STD WA handle though lol

Still I won't know what I think about the corian yo handled version till I see it in person and this was also an up charge too so who knows etc

One thing I am not crazy about is these up charges for different colored handles. I understand differences in costs of the material but it doesn't seem to relate well to the difference in price. Guess they know when they got you etc.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Originally Posted by *LennyD* 


> One thing I am not crazy about is these up charges for different colored handles. I understand differences in costs of the material but it doesn't seem to relate well to the difference in price. Guess they know when they got you etc.


Nearly all the Seki knife makers buy those "different colored handles" essentially ready made from an OEM maker. As I understand it, most often either the blades are taken to the handle maker where the handles are fitted, or the blades and handles are taken to the handle fitter. Either way, the knife makers pass on the cost to you without adding too much of their own bite. Indeed, the "up charges" are relatively standard from one knife maker to another.

You can always get the stock handle.

Also, try and remember this is a time of enormous stress for Japanese makers trying to sell globally because the yen remains suffocatingly, persistently and irrationally strong relative to nearly everything else.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I can understand there being an increase in cost for a more expensive option, but honestly it "feels" like the price being charged here in the US is more in line with what the market will bear more than anything to do with the actual additional cost of the handle IMHO of course /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

An example is the Konosuke HD gyuto 240mm with the ebony handle being nearly $50 more than the std handle. I guess I could be wrong, but that just seems a bit much. In comparison the western handle version with the Corian handle is a $14 up charge. If I am missing something here in the actual costs of the materials (can one common species of wood be that much more than another?) or if it is a production issue like the MFG not including special or optional handles in normal production and this requires a installed handle to be removed and another put on or something entirely different I would seriously be interested in knowing more as it just doesn't make sense to me somehow lol.

Anyhow I have had a chance to initially go over the Konosuke and it is pretty darn impressive. I have not cut with it yet as I have not decided if I am keeping or swapping out for the yo handle, but I like what I can see and feel so far.

I did have a chance to measure it up, but have to find a few minutes to convert to mm and get it all posted.

One thing I immediately noticed is that the profile is more than a little similar to my current Fujiwara FKM gyuto. Though it does have a better fit and finish the feel though not the same is also not all the different either. I was really surprised at how the shape of the blades looked and measured up so closely, and except for the HD being a bit thinner a little further up from the edge towards the spine and also thinner near the last 1 or 2 inches towards the tip there really is not as much distinction between the measurements. The HD is a little thinner in most all areas, but just not as much as anticipated.

I expect these small changes will make a larger difference once sharpened properly, and I think I am understanding the advantages in the steel itself etc, but somehow at nearly 3x the price I was just well expecting there to be more difference.

One really obvious difference is that this Corian handle seems to be a whole lot heavier than the wood on the Fujiwara, and I really wish I had an acceptable scale to weigh them with (any ideas on this as I was going to request the help of one of the people at the local post office I see fairly often, but was afraid it could freak people out being these are 10" knives lol).

Hopefully once I get the numbers posted you all can work on figuring out if there is any real difference between the wa and yo handled versions. Maybe this can help me make a decision as well.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Seems I answered this on the other similar thread by mistake.

Thankfully copy and paste is easy lol. I may need to make some slight changes to a couple of the numbers as I think I may have goofed up converting from inches on some ever so slightly.

First I have to be honest that it seems I am posting some info here and also a bit in the first impression thread so sorry for any confusion etc.

I managed to get some measurements so here they are.

Thk at heel 2.3mm at 1" fr heel 2.30mm at mid of blade 2.20mm. At 1" fr tip 1.30mm at 1/4" fr tip 0.39mm
Blade height. at heel49mm at mid 42mm at1/4" fr tip 21mm
Thick half way from edge to spine. Heel1.31mm. 1" towards tip1.22mm. Mid 1.98mm 1"fr tip.80mm tip 0.38mm

The measurements are not 100% exact but taken with a dial caliper and converted to mm.

I am still a little confused or well maybe curious is a better word by the similar profile and even some of the measurements compared to the Fujiwara FKM.



racineboxer said:


> Yeah, take some measurements if you can. Spine at the heel, midway point at heel, right above the edge at the heel and a few more around the midsection of the knife and the tip.
> 
> You're getting a great knife, like me you have to protect that OCD tendency to always search for something that isn't quite right. That said... if you've really wanted a wa handle I think you should really think about whether or not you want to return the knife and wait for the one you've really, really, really wanted. I know the feeling, my next knife will be a wa handle.


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