# Boss wants me to help develop method and train, feeling under paid (12/hr)



## hajima (May 6, 2017)

Hey, just started a new job because I got crabky and quit my last one. Pay is much less, twelve hr down from sixteen. Theyre a coffee shop that mainly does simple pastries but they want to start doing bagels because they're opening a new location. When hired I said I knew how to do bagels. However, boss wants me to help start a bagel method and train people, which I could do, but twelve an hour feels like way too little. I'm thinking about asking for a $250 bonus, mainly because the only pay rate that would make me happy is sixteen, and I feel like that would put me above the other bakers so it's unrealistic, plus I'm looking for another job anyway so if I got a couple dollar hr raise and quit in two weeks that wouldn't mean much. What does everyone think about that? Money is always touchy but... Twelve just seems so little for what they're asking.

Unemployment where I'm at is at two point five percent, so it's not like there aren't other jobs out there, but this one had a couple perks (cute girls).


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## hajima (May 6, 2017)

I did say I knew how to do bagels when hired, but didn't expect to be put in charge of the whole operation.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Work is better than no work. Do you want a job or do you want to cry that you are underpaid? 

You never said just how many places you've owned and run yourself.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Who said you're going to be in charge of the whole operation? First you said you're just showing them how to make bagels then you are in charge of the whole operation. 
Whatever you get paid, you should be willing to share your knowledge. Putting together a bagel system in an existing operation isn't that big of a deal. It's a great challenge for seeing if you can translate your knowledge in to action. 
IF and when they develop a second location and IF and when they ask you to manage it, Then you can negotiate a raise, because you would be Managing the whole place. 
What really strikes me about your post is that you quit a $16 an hour job because you got cranky but now want your current job to pay you the same rate. Because you won't get cranky anymore? 
What exactly, besides pay, is important to you about a job?


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

I'd just do as the owner requested at no additional cost.

At the owner's request, I spearheaded a bread program as a lowly line cook at this one place back in the day. I didn't get any extra compensation at the time, but the owner was impressed enough that he rewarded me handsomely later on.

In any case, cute girls is all that matters, really. I've endured a lot of low paying jobs for the sake of being around cute girls.


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## hajima (May 6, 2017)

iceman said:


> Work is better than no work. Do you want a job or do you want to cry that you are underpaid?
> 
> You never said just how many places you've owned and run yourself.


What a bizarre comment. Because I'm the first person to ask his boss for more money? I suppose you work for 50¢ an hour, after all work is better than no work.


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## hajima (May 6, 2017)

chefwriter said:


> Who said you're going to be in charge of the whole operation? First you said you're just showing them how to make bagels then you are in charge of the whole operation.
> Whatever you get paid, you should be willing to share your knowledge. Putting together a bagel system in an existing operation isn't that big of a deal. It's a great challenge for seeing if you can translate your knowledge in to action.
> IF and when they develop a second location and IF and when they ask you to manage it, Then you can negotiate a raise, because you would be Managing the whole place.
> What really strikes me about your post is that you quit a $16 an hour job because you got cranky but now want your current job to pay you the same rate. Because you won't get cranky anymore?
> What exactly, besides pay, is important to you about a job?


There's no management opportunity. It's a coffee shop first, boss isn't a baker. He actually fired the last head baker, and the place has been run for a while by people with less than a year of experience.
Yes I want to get paid commensurate with my skills and training. Making bagels for 12$ is one thing, using my skills and training I got at higher paying establishments to act as an executive chef doesn't sit right with me when I know there's no advancement opportunities.
Money, skills training (I'm passionate about baking), and professionalism and respect are all important to me, depending on the day. This job doesn't have much of any of them -- so asking for more of one (money) to make the job more palatable doesn't seem too crazy to me.
Yes, it's possible I might get cranky again and quit another job -- so, what, I should just never get another job?

The thing is, if the owner puts an ad on Craigslist for a baker to come in, work eight hours, train his staff and develop a commercial bagel operation, that's going to cost him at least a thousand dollars. But I'm expected to do that for twelve an hour, when I know there's no future for me at that establishment?

Like I said, 2.5% unemployment. There are other jobs.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

hajima said:


> There's no management opportunity. It's a coffee shop first, boss isn't a baker. He actually fired the last head baker, and the place has been run for a while by people with less than a year of experience.
> Yes I want to get paid commensurate with my skills and training. Making bagels for 12$ is one thing, using my skills and training I got at higher paying establishments to act as an executive chef doesn't sit right with me when I know there's no advancement opportunities.
> Money, skills training (I'm passionate about baking), and professionalism and respect are all important to me, depending on the day. This job doesn't have much of any of them -- so asking for more of one (money) to make the job more palatable doesn't seem too crazy to me.
> Yes, it's possible I might get cranky again and quit another job -- so, what, I should just never get another job?
> ...


I think you kind of answered your own question really. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask for more money, either in the way of a wage increase or a one time "bonus". You were hired to do one job, now you're being asked to do more. And you should be justly compensated. You don't seem to be particularly concerned about the longevity of this particular job, so in my 
mind, you have nothing to lose by asking for more money, and the establishment owner has everything to lose by losing an employee who has pride and professionalism and passion and experience. If the owner hedges on giving you more money, then just move on.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Hajima said:

There's no management opportunity. It's a coffee shop first, boss isn't a baker. He actually fired the last head baker, and the place has been run for a while by people with less than a year of experience.
Yes I want to get paid commensurate with my skills and training. Making bagels for 12$ is one thing, using my skills and training I got at higher paying establishments _to act as an executive chef _doesn't sit right with me when I know there's no advancement opportunities.
Money, skills training (I'm passionate about baking), and _professionalism and respect are all important to me, depending on the day_.

What exactly are you being asked to do that you think is worth more than what you are doing now? And that would get you to stop looking for another job? You knew what the job was and what it would pay, and you haven't been there that long. You have no loyalty there so what exactly would keep you there if you got more $ or a better title - or the opportunity to manage the new location if it ever takes off? I think you should just quit this job too. Don't torture yourself - or them - anymore. They aren't going to give you what you think you deserve. You'll find something else soon enough.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

A bizarre comment? ... NO ... not at all. It's a comment based on previously being a boss. It's a comment based on having worked this industry for a very long time. It's a comment based on having to deal with lots of people that think they are so overqualified for their job that they are doing the boss a favor just to work for them. It's a comment based on the facts of life are that $12/hr. is good enough pay for the position you described. It's a coffee shop. You are not a Michelin chef.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

My advice is to take this bagel thing and run with it.
Treat it like it is the most important challenge you have ever faced.
Be professional and show el jefe what a strong team leader you are.
If after all that you are unable to squeeze a raise out of them...then you have a reason to leave for greener pastures.

mimi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

From the OP. What does everyone think about that?
The only reason I’m even wasting time to even think about the OP.
I’m a bit confused. Did someone force you to take your current job? I ask because I’m trying to understand why you are coming off as a spoiled 2 yr. old.
It’s obvious that you have no respect for the business that took a bigger risk in hiring you, than you did by taking the position.

All I want to do is identify one large issue that contributes to the failure rate in our industry, especially small business.
You are witnessing an example of an industry that requires no accreditation or training.
The result is that a very large population of workers in this industry do not have a clue they are working in a business environment. You won’t find this business ignorance in a lot of other trades or professions.
The industry is finally starting to realize this. I was just looking at the CEC and CEPC training and in now requires a 30 hour course on cost management. A step in the right direction.

As the OP states, it’s just a coffee shop, inferring, it’s of no importance to anyone.

We don’t know this owner. We don’t know if he has jeopardized his financial life by taking the risk to open this ‘meaningless to workers” coffee shop.

We do know that he is trying to be proactive and grow the business. We do know, he took a huge risk by hiring the OP, as with all hires. We do know that he has had to spend quite a few dollars and time just to set up this new hire into, not only into his system, but the federal system also. We do know that he will pay someone, or he will spend a great amount of time doing work for the Government. He is responsible to collect tax dollars that are owed by the employees to the government. Guess the belief is the employees are not capable. Calculate, store, then send off to the government. Oh, he will then have to dip into his business income to match the employee’s total and send it to the Gov’t.(BTW uncompensated time). And Gforbid he makes a mistake. He will spend more time and monies trying to make it right, then be compensated with penalties and fines.

We know he had to fire the last baker. We don’t know, but the normal person does not terminate someone who is being an asset to the company. He took a risk with that baker. So, in the back of the owner mind, he’s wondering if he has made the right choice here. He’s hoping he has not hired someone that will screw him at the drop of a dime.
OP “ I am looking for another job anyway so if I got a couple dollar hr raise and quit in two weeks that wouldn't mean much.” 
damn. The owner was wrong about this guy.

I’ll step down from my soap box.
Others have given the OP some advice. I’ll just add, please do this owner a favor and leave. I’m quite sure there would be no notice given unless there are some pretty chicks there.

BTW These terms, with regards to your posts, just can’t be used together. Not on your best day
OP.” Money, skills training (I'm passionate about baking), and professionalism and respect are all important to me, depending on the day.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey Panini,
Why don't you tell us how you really feel. LOL
Sorry, the last post was inappropriate. Situational. 
I've just gone through my first and only termination with decades in the bus.. New hire, job description, assist baker. During hiring process was given a long grocery list of items this so-called experienced was capable of producing on their own. When asked to even help with something on the grocery list, not only unacknowledged, but adopted this little hissy attitude. Guess you would call it crabby. Being asked and being told are two different things. Being asked implies the opportunity to say no.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

I think your response was spot on, actually. Employees with less than 5 years experience don't think of any other perspective than their own (what can I get out of this job as opposed to what can I learn from this job); and maturity plays a big part as well. If you are thinking as a team member ("we" not "I") you do what it takes for the team to be successful (start the sinks, take out the trash, organize the cooler, put stuff away). Who cares if the team is a coffee shop, cafeteria or high end dining. DO YOUR JOB. Usually people don't start to think that way until they are in the mid-to late twenties, and sometimes not even then.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I would occasionally drop a butter wrapper on the floor and see how long it took for someone to do more than look at it and walk on by.
Told me quite a bit about who had the ethic and who didn't.

mimi


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Panini...I could not have said it better myself.......I doubt the OP will return, but I do hope the OP got a dose of humble pie from this thread.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I think it's easy to rag on the OP but, many of us have been in pretty much the same situation. I would bet most of the Chefs on this site have felt under Appreciated, under paid and worked to hard for what they got paid. Most of us worked our way up in this business and weren't given the keys to the city after graduating from Culinary School. That being said, If you have to spend 8 to 10 hrs a day working in the career you picked, then be the best you can be. I don't know anyone who ever did more in this business and continued to get demoted or get less. I guarantee, if you put your best foot forward everyday it will pay off in the end. Your work ethic doesn't start when you punch the clock at work. Your character and ethics follow you everywhere you go. I always live by the rule " Be who you are everywhere your at". The way I moved up in my career was to make everyone else look good. 
To the OP, from a guy who has been around the block a few times. If you ever leave this coffee shop it will be beneficial during your next job interview to explain what you did to improve the business. Explain how you were asked to start a bagel program, trained the employees to the point they still have this item on their menu. Explain how you'll go above and beyond to help this business offer new items and help grow the business........Good luck.........ChefBillyB


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

chefbillyb said:


> I think it's easy to rag on the OP but, many of us have been in pretty much the same situation. I would bet most of the Chefs on this site have felt under Appreciated, under paid and worked to hard for what they got paid. Most of us worked our way up in this business and weren't given the keys to the city after graduating from Culinary School. That being said, If you have to spend 8 to 10 hrs a day working in the career you picked, then be the best you can be. I don't know anyone who ever did more in this business and continued to get demoted or get less. I guarantee, if you put your best foot forward everyday it will pay off in the end. Your work ethic doesn't start when you punch the clock at work. Your character and ethics follow you everywhere you go. I always live by the rule " Be who you are everywhere your at". The way I moved up in my career was to make everyone else look good.
> To the OP, from a guy who has been around the block a few times. If you ever leave this coffee shop it will be beneficial during your next job interview to explain what you did to improve the business. Explain how you were asked to start a bagel program, trained the employees to the point they still have this item on their menu. Explain how you'll go above and beyond to help this business offer new items and help grow the business........Good luck.........ChefBillyB


Ahhhh Chef if only we could read more into the thread we see here on the boards. We only can respond to what we read. We can't know what's in the person head, or their work ethic. What we can read into is the words used to describe their problem.

When I see something like this: 
*"Hey, just started a new job because I got crabky and quit my last one."
*
I think the person is young, and immature. As you mentioned, we've all been there at some point in our career.
But when I see this:

*"I'm thinking about asking for a $250 bonus, mainly because the only pay rate that would make me happy is sixteen, and I feel like that would put me above the other bakers so it's unrealistic, plus I'm looking for another job anyway so if I got a couple dollar hr raise and quit in two weeks that wouldn't mean much."
*
Sorry Chef but this reeks of ego and tells me that I could spend a lot of time and money training this person only to have him give me the finger and leave.
Sorry if I don't agree with you totally.... I too, have been there and done that with employees like the OP.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Call it ego and villianize the OP all you want... but who in their right mind would feel good about doing that kind of process development and staff training for minimum wage pay?

If the OP did anything wrong at all it was bragging too much and unintentionally inciting the owner to take advantage if the owner had real ethics a substantial bonus would have been offered upon success of the enhanced business opportunity. 

Immaturity, perhaps, but most of us have been there, suffered the consequences, and moved on with greater life experience and wisdom.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

I can see how the cockiness of the OP's post have rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. But I think perhaps we should do better at withholding judgment until we know all the facts. I know I've had bad days where my choice of words makes me look pretty bad. I always cut people slack until I have reason to believe I shouldn't.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

I really have trouble subscribing to the feeling that someone who wants to 
be paid what they feel is equal to what they are [now] being asked to do, is
just being a crybaby. 
That said, I'm wondering why you took this job at that rate of pay if you're unhappy with it. 
And you did quit the previous one. 
My advice is that, since you already seem unhappy at this small business, you either 
bide your time while looking for something else, or you sit your boss down and just say 
something similar to what you said here..... 
_
Yes I want to get paid commensurate with my skills and training. Making bagels for 12$ is one thing, using my skills and training I got at higher paying establishments to act as an executive chef doesn't sit right with me when I know there's no advancement opportunities.
_
After all, he hired you to do one thing, and is asking more of you now. 
If he doesn't think that's WORTH more, he'll tell you, and then you will know.


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## hajima (May 6, 2017)

Update: was just going to give two weeks and find a new job. But then boss said "BTW you're next paycheck is going to have a raise in it we normally give raises after a month" so I sat on it for a week and then after another week decided it still probably wasn't going to be enough however much it was going to be. 

Also right then I got a call from this luxury resort who's head pastry chef I ran into randomly and later went in and asked for an internship. She told me she would hire me as a cook four and give me baking shifts too. So that's pretty cool. I do a lot of food running and other things I'm not that into but it's a good foot in the door for where I want to be and the pay is almost double (23$/hr). 

Don't really know how the other place hires anyone at their rates. I guess being cool goes a long way. Barista was telling me she averages pretty close to thirty dollars an hour per shift. She also told me there was a lot of problems keeping bakers before me so makes me feel better.

They did bump my pay to fourteen and I offered to stay on one day a week but guess they didn't need that but it wouldn't have worked out anyway since I'm on call a lot and just work whenever.

Got scoldings at the resort today for not being completely clean shaven and I guess my tattoo is visible through my chefs jacket so kinda depressed but I know it's the best I can do and it's where I want to be. Just kinda brought me down to earth a little bit about working for a corporate whatever and not just the neighborhood bakery.


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Good for you.


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## cstanford (Jul 3, 2008)

iceman said:


> A bizarre comment? ... NO ... not at all. It's a comment based on previously being a boss. It's a comment based on having worked this industry for a very long time. It's a comment based on having to deal with lots of people that think they are so overqualified for their job that they are doing the boss a favor just to work for them. It's a comment based on the facts of life are that $12/hr. is good enough pay for the position you described. It's a coffee shop. You are not a Michelin chef.


Yeah, it was a bizarre comment. "Just a coffee shop..." Maybe you're thinking all-night diner/hash house. I'm thinking of something a little more upscale though don't know for sure. "Coffee shops" have gotten pretty swank in the last 20 years or so in case you haven't noticed. $12 an hour is not enough to train employees how to bake, especially ones who likely couldn't even identify the ovens unless they were on and hot.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

@hajima - how's it going at the resort job? Do you still like it? Happened to be browsing through some threads and remembered this one, wondered how things are working out there. Good luck! Hope you are enjoying it!


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