# Looking for a Japanese Knife



## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi folks. I've spent the last few weeks reading a lot of  postings on this forum, and thought it was time to make my own.

I'm searching for a Japanese chef's knife that is best suited for me, and would appreciate any input, recommendations, etc..

Knife Skills---average to good, but no expert

Sharpening Skills--none, but willing to learn. Indeed, that is part of the appeal of buying a good knife.

Aesthetics--not my primary concern, but an important consideration.

Handle--no experience with "wa" handles, though not averse to trying a knife with one

Current Knives--Henckels: 8" chef, boning and paring

Budget--$250-300

Some knives I"ve been considering:

Konosuke HD/HH Wa-Gyuto

Kanehiro Wa-Gyuto 

Masakage Koishe Wa-Gyuto and/or Petty

MAC Pro

I'm an avid home cook and work part time as a line cook, though the knife will be used exclusively at home.

I trust this is enough information to get started, if not, ask away and I'll try to answer any of your queries.

bhwtt


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

Is your 250-300 budget including sharpening equipment?

Personally, as a first J-knife, I'd stay away from lasers, unless you specifically want one. You won't be able to bring the best out of it without good sharpening skills, and from what I hear great knife skills.

I know the MAC Pros were highly recommended - but, I think that since the last price raise there is better knives for the cash. I'm not sure what these knives are, just that I've heard that said.

What length are you looking for?


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks for the prompt reply rdm magic.

The budget of $250-300 is for the knife only.  I was thinking that a 240mm chef's knife would be in order, given I currently have two 8" chef knives.

I sometimes use a Misono(badly in need of sharpening, so not indicative of how well a Japanese knife can cut) at work and it's fairly thin and about 240mms in length.  How much thinner are lasers?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Stay away from lasers if you are new to sharpening. Buy some stones and learn to maintain your current knives before spending more $$. Lasers are more difficult to sharpen for many and certainly for noobs and they are not the best all around work knives. That only makes sense when you think about how much thinner they are.   There's nothing wrong with a Misono and 240mm is a very comfortable length for many.

Dave


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## eiron (Nov 29, 2012)

bhwtt said:


> ... I was thinking that a 240mm chef's knife would be in order, given I currently have two 8" chef knives.
> 
> I sometimes use a Misono ... at work and it's fairly thin and about 240mms in length. ...


Keep in mind that the flatter profile of many J-knives gives you more 'cutting length' than what you might be used to with Euro-style chef's knives. My 210mm Kanetsune gyuto has about as much 'cutting length' as a 10" Henckels or Wusthof chef's knife, & only loses the longer up-turned nose. This is ideal for me, as it provides a lighter knife with more maneuverability _*and*_ more usable edge.

That's not to say that you _shouldn't_ get a 240, only that there may be inherent unconsidered advantages already embodied in a 210.


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

DuckFat, is it the thinnest of lasers that makes them difficult to sharpen or is it the steel they're made of?

Maybe you're correct and I should look at some good stones  and work on my sharpening skills before buying a new knife.

Thanks,

bhwtt


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

You could get a knife that isn't a laser?


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

Of course, rdm magic, but I'm mostly concern with having a good knife and being able to maintain it. If that entails firstly learning how to sharpen knives, I'm okay with that. Though it may the case, as you say, that I could get a knife other than a laser; one that is more amendable to sharpening than lasers.  I'm certainly opened to purchasing such a knife along with some beginner's whetstone. The question still remains, which knife and which stones? One such recommendation has been the Kanehiro Wa-Gyuto. Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

bhwtt


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

bhwtt said:


> DuckFat, is it the thinnest of lasers that makes them difficult to sharpen or is it the steel they're made of?
> 
> Maybe you're correct and I should look at some good stones and work on my sharpening skills before buying a new knife.
> 
> ...


Primarily the edge is so thin it can be very hard for a new sharpener to work with. FWIW the current trend really is away from lasers for working knives.

Buy some stones and work on those sharpening skills. After all you will need those stones no matter what knife you buy.

Dave


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

Quote:

Primarily the edge is so thin it can be very hard for a new sharpener to work with. FWIW the current trend really is away from lasers for working knives.

Buy some stones and work on those sharpening skills. After all you will need those stones no matter what knife you buy.

Dave

Any recommendation on what stones to buy? As a neophyte should I be looking for a particular grit(s) and/or type(s)?

Keith


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## phasedweasel (Apr 7, 2011)

I would venture a guess that a laser (ie, a very thin knife) is harder to sharpen for reasons of geometry: the thinner it is, the smaller the bevel will be.  A bevel at the same angle on a thick knife will be wider, and therefore easier to sharpen more consistently.

I would also venture that most of the knives which are considered lasers are not made with san mai, or layered, construction.  Therefore the whole bevel will be made of the hard edge steel and harder to grind off, as compared to a clad or layered knife where the hard core material is clad with a softer metal.

Both of these are just my best guesses, we'll have to wait for some of the veteran honemeisters to weigh in.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Interesting thread. 


> Both of these are just my best guesses, we'll have to wait for some of the veteran honemeisters to weigh in.


_*BDL*_ ... that usually means for you to come in and give us your wisdom. Please do that for us.

_*WOW.*_ This is my #1111 post. I know ......................_* BFD. *_


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

My understanding was that lasers are more likely to flex while you are sharpening on a stone, causing uneven sharpening and other issues. Until you learn proper technique (like the right pressure and angle holding) a stiffer blade would be more forgiving.

I like how the term "ductility" hasn't made its way into the conversation on hardness and toughness yet.

As for stones, the 5piece starter waterstones set over at CKTG's is a common starting point. Though you probably won't need the 500 grit till you need to repair a knife, you'd start with the 1.2k (and a sharpie to make sure you are working the right bevel and a stack of quarters to check angle) and either do the burr raise method or the stroke count method. You can start messing with your current Chef's. videos on technique can be found on CKTG's website and egullet and chad ward's site.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_The Trend:_

Very few dealers retail lasers. I don't know one way or the other whether _the trend_ is away from lasers, but suspect that there haven't been enough laser sales at any time to constitute a _trend_ of a size that would make a dent in ordinary, Japanese made knife sales. To the extent that there was a trend at all, it was probably mostly a product of the knife forums. Those of us who spend in the forums tend to forget the limits of their reach.

I've used a few laser gyuto including the Tadatsuna Inox, Suisun Inox Honyaki, Gesshin Ginga (Inox), Konosuke Shirogami #2, and currently own a Konosuke HD 270mm gyuto and 300mm Konosuke HD suji (which I use as a gyuto). I've also owned and used a great many typically thin (by Japanese standards) chef's knives.

_Sharpening a Laser:_

Dave could very well be right about lasers being difficult for beginning sharpeners, but I'm not sure what he's getting at. In my experience lasers aren't more difficult to sharpen than other knives. True, it's been about forty years between learning to sharpen competently and buying my first laser, so maybe I'm missing something.

_Using a Laser:_

I got the idea that lasers needed better skills than ordinarily thin knives from a friend of mine who broke in a lot of new cooks on the line, but it turned out that he and I were wrong -- at least as they related to home cooks. As long as you don't force the knife to bend by torquing it, or getting it out of square in the cut, your fine; and those problems seem to occur under the sort of time pressure you get on the line, but not at home.

So if someone doesn't mind working a little bit to improve his or her skills -- especially grip and keeping the knife square -- and doesn't work in such a hurry as to force the knife, an ultra-thin knife isn't a problem. That doesn't mean you need one or that you should want one. Some people like stiffer knives. Personally, I like 'em all, and my latest purchase is a "mighty" wa-gyuto -- a Richmond carbon Ultimatum -- more or less the opposite of a laser. Because why not?

_Hard and Soft Steels_:

The Rockwell Hardness scales measure indentation hardness, and not impact hardness. Furthermore, unless the alloy is made too hard, hardness doesn't have much to do with how it will sharpen. Strength does. Because strong alloys harden better and stronger than tough alloys, hardness can be considered a metaphor for strength, but they're not the same things. File this under "Things Knife Retailers Never Tell You."

Alloys which resist bending are called strong. Since given enough force everything's got to give, that also means that strong alloys tear and break more easily than they bend. On the other hand, tough alloys bend more easily than the break. Strong alloys actually sharpen a little easier than tough alloys because sharpening is abrasion, and abrasion means tearing off little pieces of alloy. Tough alloys "steel" (i.e. can be trued on a rod hone) better than strong steels. But while tough alloys suffer less from wear than strong alloys, they ding out of true more easily.

That makes for a nice sort of maintenance relationship. Strong alloys need more sharpening and sharpen more easily, while tough alloys need more steeling and steel better.

Most -- but not all -- of the best alloys are not only "balanced" in terms of those qualities, but are also score on the high side for each. A few good alloys aren't balanced but are strong OR tough. One thing ALL good knives have in common is that their blade alloys are appropriately hardened.

Sharpening san-mai knives (three layer laminates with soft outsides surrounding a strong/hard core) is no more difficult than sharpening knives made from a single layer of steel -- as long as you use appropriate stones.

_The Dreaded List of Knives:_

I don't know enough about the Kanehiro or Masakage to comment, other than to say that they're the kind of knives I don't like and would never buy. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't, just that I'm not the right guy to ask.

I love the MAC Pro for a lot of reasons, but it's no longer the deal it used to be. I think if you're seriously considering it, you should also consider the Masamoto VG, which shares a lot of qualities. The MAC's stiffer, the Masamoto has a better profile, the MAC has better manufacturer support and a great guarantee, the Masamoto is a Masamoto, and just about everything else is a push.

One of the first things you need to figure out -- and no one can really help you on this -- is whether you want a "yo" or "wa" handle.

The Konosukes are seriously good knives, and contenders for best knife at any price if you like lasers. In a similar price range at a similar level of quality you might also consider a Gesshin Ginga.

The Gesshin Uraku is a relatively affordable single steel, stainless wa-gyuto with a lot of good buzz. I understand the Richmond Addict is very nice, and I'll have something to say about the (mighty) Richmond Ultimatum in a week or so.

_Recommended Stones:_

I spent a little time on the phone with Mark Richmond the other day and we were talking about a reasonably priced, good to go, soup to nuts sharpening kit aimed at beginners who have nothing, but want to start with good equipment. He's got it online as the Eight Piece Set, around $190.

Just some thoughts,

BDL


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

> _Recommended Stones:_
> 
> I spent a little time on the phone with Mark Richmond the other day and we were talking about a reasonably priced, good to go, soup to nuts sharpening kit aimed at beginners who have nothing, but want to start with good equipment. He's got it online as the Eight Piece Set, around $190.


Nice one!

I just received a shipment almost like that... one click shopping from now on (for everyone else!).


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks BDL for you insights and comments.

As to whether I desire either the "yo" or "wa" handle I've no preference either way, given I've never used a "wa" handle. I certainly like the western-styled handles on many knives that I've worked with(not all, but many), but that's no strike against "wa" handles. Wa-handled knives are  aesthetically pleasing and that's an important consideration as I indicated, but not having any experience with them I can't assess their  merits relative to "yo". Unfortunately there is no dealer in my neck of the woods that carries Japanese knives where I could go to test them out, so if I choose a "wa" over a "yo" it will be for aesthetic reasons and out of curiosity.

Forgive me if I'm somewhat obtuse here, but I'm still not clear on the "strong" vs "tough" alloys distinction. Which alloys are "strong" and which "tough"? And are you suggesting( that its better for beginners to buy "strong alloy" knives because they're easier to sharpen or are you saying that beginners need to find a knife that is "balanced" in regards to these two qualities? If so, what do I look for? If I read you correctly, I think you're saying the a "balanced" knife is the better choice. Again, how do I determined which is which?

As to stones, the selection you referenced from Mark Richmond  seems to be more than adequate for a neophyte sharpener. I'm going to borrow a friend's stones (1000 and 8000 grit) to try on my Henckels before I take the plunge.

Wubu,

I read somewhere (I can't recall where because of late I've been reading too far afield on this subject) that 500 grit stones are often the grit you start with for German knives, because they're so soft. Is this correct? Or is this too coarse  of a grit for a soft steel that is not in need of repair?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

bhwtt said:


> Any recommendation on what stones to buy? As a neophyte should I be looking for a particular grit(s) and/or type(s)?
> 
> Keith


I'd suggest staying away from the "kits". You wind up buying items that you won't need and probably won't ever use and they cost more upfront for items you probably wouldn't pick if buying separate.

FWIW my view on that applies to all dealers with starter kits.

I think the best way to start is with a single combination stone. Don't take on a big expense only to discover that you find sharpening about as exciting as pulling teeth. If you want multiple stones the Naniwa SS Mark carries are great for starting out and you can buy a 1K and 3K or 5k stone with out breaking the bank. You can go for years even in a professional kitchen with just two stones and have much sharper knives than the average cook. Keep that in perspective when looking at multi-stone kits and stay away from stones lower than 1k to start!

Dave


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## eiron (Nov 29, 2012)

DuckFat said:


> I'd suggest staying away from the "kits". You wind up buying items that you won't need and probably won't ever use and they cost more upfront for items you probably wouldn't pick if buying separate.
> 
> FWIW my view on that applies to all dealers with starter kits.
> 
> ...


+1 on this suggestion. I'd also recommend _*against*_ using the 8000 grit stone your friend has, for two reasons:

1) It's a huge jump from 1000 to 8000, & that itself can be frustrating when you're just starting to learn

2) Your Henckels won't benefit from polishing at this stage in your learning process; give yourself some time to get the 'feel' of sharpening before you worry about polishing, & then use a smaller jump between grits.

My suggestion would be to start with a *1000 or 1200 grit stone from Mike's Tools* for $24. If you want, you can add in their Suehiro 6000 grit for another $28 & have two full-sized stones for the cost of a single combination stone. If you go with both, I'd suggest buying the 1200 to make the gap between the two just a bit smaller. I used the two 1000 & 6000 stones for the first 2 years, & added a 3000 the 3rd year. After that, you'll need a flattener at some point in time, but not immediately (unless you end up gouging your stones early in the learning process; I added in a flattener after a year). A wine cork works about as well as hard felt for deburring.

This will give you a good, functional sharpening setup that will teach you _how_ to sharpen without spending a ton of money. And when you decide to change stones, you won't be leaving as much 'money' gathering dust in the closet.

I almost forgot:

If you have a Bed Bath & Beyond nearby, they might carry Shun Classic knives. While not a 'true' Wa handle, it might give you an idea of whether or not you could use one for extended periods.


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

What about this combo stone as a starter? One side is 800 grit, below your advised starting threshold of 1000 grit, but it gets good reviews on Chefs Knives to Go.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kingcombostone.html


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## jimbo68 (Feb 3, 2012)

Eiron said:


> Keep in mind that the flatter profile of many J-knives gives you more 'cutting length' than what you might be used to with Euro-style chef's knives. My 210mm Kanetsune gyuto has about as much 'cutting length' as a 10" Henckels or Wusthof chef's knife, & only loses the longer up-turned nose. This is ideal for me, as it provides a lighter knife with more maneuverability _*and*_ more usable edge.
> 
> That's not to say that you _shouldn't_ get a 240, only that there may be inherent unconsidered advantages already embodied in a 210.


I have both a 210 and 240 Kanetsune Gyoto,(100's) and I go for the 240 90% of the time. The extra length is useful, and there are times that a 210 is just too short.

I also have their Santoku. It almost never gets used.


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## eiron (Nov 29, 2012)

jimbo68 said:


> I have both a 210 and 240 Kanetsune Gyoto,(100's) and I go for the 240 90% of the time. The extra length is useful, and there are times that a 210 is just too short.
> 
> I also have their Santoku. It almost never gets used.


Ah, see? I have the Forschner (Rosewood) santoku, & it's probably my 2nd-most-used knife, after my (KC-102) gyuto. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

bhwtt said:


> I read somewhere (I can't recall where because of late I've been reading too far afield on this subject) that 500 grit stones are often the grit you start with for German knives, because they're so soft. Is this correct? Or is this too coarse of a grit for a soft steel that is not in need of repair?


I have the 1200 bester and 5 k suehiro rika which are available in the 5 piece and complete kits that cktg has (I bought just the stones, using a damp cloth to hold the stone, and a wine cork to deburr, so no 500 grit in my kitchen), and I have used it a few times on my victorinox fibrox which has the same steel as your henckels, and I can get a sharp edge. As for grit and soft steels, yes, the 5k doesn't work on my 420hc leatherman, the edge only holds out for 1cut then it folds over most of the time, but the set should be good for actual use on your chef's.

As for which alloys are strong and though, as BDL mentioned, good knife makers pick the appropriate alloys and harden them properly. Though they still do cover a range of varying properties, the other way to tell would be from the experiences of others and your own (go steal someone's knife and mess around with it ). And, picking a knife isn't just about the metal, it's the shape, the thickness, the hardening, the grind, the handle, the balance, etc..


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

FWIW (probably just a bit), I joined this forum almost a year ago, and feel like I have learned a great deal.

Not too long after joining, I got a Konosuke HD gyuto.  This type of knife was totally new for me.  I have to say that I have not once noticed the whippiness or flexing that some people are concerned about (either in cutting or sharpening).  For perspective, I'm a home cook, and if I'm worried about something being tough on it, out comes the Wusthof.  I also really like the wa handle, even though that was new for me.  The knife just seems so light and easy to control--it's really a joy to use, and it feels so great when it just slides through veggies!

bhwtt, as someone with some experience with knives, but wanting a knife that you'll take good care of for home use, I think a laser might be a great candidate for you, if that seems like something you're interested in.


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

toddnmd said:


> FWIW (probably just a bit), I joined this forum almost a year ago, and feel like I have learned a great deal.
> 
> Not too long after joining, I got a Konosuke HD gyuto. This type of knife was totally new for me. I have to say that I have not once noticed the whippiness or flexing that some people are concerned about (either in cutting or sharpening). For perspective, I'm a home cook, and if I'm worried about something being tough on it, out comes the Wusthof. I also really like the wa handle, even though that was new for me. The knife just seems so light and easy to control--it's really a joy to use, and it feels so great when it just slides through veggies!
> 
> bhwtt, as someone with some experience with knives, but wanting a knife that you'll take good care of for home use, I think a laser might be a great candidate for you, if that seems like something you're interested in.


I too am finding this forum useful, but at the beginning of the process trying to digest all the information, conflicting and otherwise, is somewhat baffling. The whole metallurgical aspect of the knife making craft, for instance, what steels are best for what applications, etc., is all rather esoteric stuff, if one is not a mechanical engineer. Though it is useful information when someone like BDL paraphrases it in more layman like terms.

The Konosuke knives are certainly at or near the top of my list when I go to buy.

Thanks for your perspective toddnmd.


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## eiron (Nov 29, 2012)

bhwtt said:


> What about this combo stone as a starter? One side is 800 grit, below your advised starting threshold of 1000 grit, but it gets good reviews on Chefs Knives to Go.
> 
> http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kingcombostone.html


IMO, it's kind of a bigger jump between grits than would be ideal for someone just starting on the learning curve (having started out with a 1000 to 6000 jump myself). I'd want a 2000 as my 'finishing stone' if I were starting with an 800. So I'd still recommend a 1200/6000 pair as the largest gap to jump.

And you also want to think about maintenance sharpening, not just learning. What I mean is, after you've got your basic skills down & your knife edges in good shape, you won't need to start at a really low grit every time. So, for me, 800 would be too coarse for every touch-up session, & 6000 would be too fine to get any sharpening done. So something like a 1200 would be a good grit for basic touch-ups & maintenance, & the 6000 (if you want to add it in) can be used for overall edge polishing or just for micro-bevels.

So the nice thing about starting with a 1200 is that you _really_ don't need anything else immediately in your sharpening kit in order to get a really great, sharp cutting edge.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Understand that I'm not picking on anyone here...


> My suggestion would be to start with a *1000 or 1200 grit stone from Mike's Tools* for $24. If you want, you can add in their Suehiro 6000 grit for another $28 & have two full-sized stones for the cost of a single combination stone. If you go with both, I'd suggest buying the 1200 to make the gap between the two just a bit smaller. I used the two 1000 & 6000 stones for the first 2 years, & added a 3000 the 3rd year. After that, you'll need a flattener at some point in time, but not immediately (unless you end up gouging your stones early in the learning process; I added in a flattener after a year). A wine cork works about as well as hard felt for deburring.


There's a lot of conventional wisdom in this paragraph, almost all of which you'd get from quite a few people. Some of it is good advice, some okay, and some just wrong... which is why I'm jumping in.

Let's start with what's wrong.

_Wrong 1, Flattening:_

Most if not all water stones should be flattened, mitered and dressed before their first use.

The point of flattening is not fix gouges, but make sure the stone is level so that the knife's edge angle stays consistent (well, as constant as you can hold it) relative to the face of the stone. If the stone is dished -- which happens pretty quickly with even hard water stones -- the face will not be flat and the angle will vary as the knife moves across the stone.

All of the stones edges and corners should be "eased" before the stone is first used. This strengthens the stone and helps prevent cracking and crumbling at the weakest points. Furthermore, it helps slow the development of "rails" (higher sides). Rails are a natural product both of wear and the relatively different drying and expansion/contraction times of the edges and center.

Most stones ship with a relatively coarse surface and many are covered with ink and/or a coating. Ink should be leveled, the coating should be removed, and surface made as smooth as the stone can get. Water stones usually sharpen and/or polish best with "mud" which is a slurry of stone stuff which comes off the surface of the stone -- but is not the surface itself. You use your flattener to level and clean the stone, then dress the stone with either a "nagura" or a slightly coarser stone.

_Wrong 2, The Meaning of Grit Numbers:_

Nominal screen (aka grit) numbers are at least as much nominal as meaningful... Especially as they apply to different manufacturers. If you assume that a 1200# stone from one manufacturer will be finer than a 1000# from another, you're treading on dangerous grounds. The odds are 50/50 pretty much.

Grit numbers can help you figure out whether a stone is coarse, medium-coarse, medium, medium-fine, fine, or ultra-fine/polishing, and help you assign a role for it in your kit. But the real distinctions when it comes to choosing one stone over another are not grit numbers but speed and polish. Not all stones with similar grit numbers perform the same. As a rule, you should expect that more expensive stones will be faster, handle scratch from a lower stone better, and polish better than less expensive stones. But, that's an awfully general rule with heap much plenty exceptions. "It depends."

Unfortunately, there are too many general rules for me to lay out here; not to mention too many general rules I don't even know. When it comes to recommending this or that stone, it's easier for me and more informative for you if we talk about specific stones as they relate to other specific stones.

Moving along.

_OK 1. Bridging the 1K/6K gap with a 3K:_

It depends on the stones and what you're trying to do. Some 6K stones have no problem "reaching down" to some 1K stones. Others do. An Arashiyama and Bester 1200 tandem won't get much from bridging the gap with an intermediate 3K stone. You'll just be adding strokes and wasting time. On the other hand, the jump to a Naniwa SS 8K would benefit from a good 3K. And not to go too far afield, but some knives are better finished with a 3K than 6K or 8K.

It's just one more of those things where "it depends." [Can I get an amen?]

_OK 2. Mike's Stones:_

OK but not great. They don't jump out as huge bang for the buck or buck the "you get what you pay for" rule.

And finally making with the attaboys.

_On the Money 1:_

A wine cork WILL deburr as well as a felt block, or anything else for that matter. So will soft wood. So will a few other things.

_On the Money 2:_

Taking everything together, separates are usually better than combi stones in the long run. But... "it depends."

BDL


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## bhwtt (Dec 10, 2012)

BDL, you seem knowledgeable on the subject of sharpening/stones, so do I need a 500 grit stone? Some, as you probably have read here, don't recommend starting with anything lower than a 1000 grit stone. Any thoughts on this? Just to clarify my situation, all my knives at the moment are German, some of my which are pretty dull and at least one, the paring knife, has some damage to the tip. 

bhwtt


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

bhwtt said:


> Just to clarify my situation, all my knives at the moment are German, some of my which are pretty dull and at least one, the paring knife, has some damage to the tip.
> 
> bhwtt


If you have all German or other non Japanese knives oilstones will work just fine and you can get loaded for bear on them for much less than waterstones.

For example you can get a set of 3, coarse, medium and fine, 8X3" Norton India stones for the same $50 the single Bester 500 costs. Add about another $100 for some Arkansas stones and you are set for years.

Jim


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## eiron (Nov 29, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> Understand that I'm not picking on anyone here...


Aww, shoot! I was hoping to get personally picked on! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Thanks BDL, I appreciate the additional clarification that you were able to add to my (very) brief suggestion! I guess I'm happy to know that my inexperienced approach to sharpening has yeilded such positive results for me since I started hand sharpening only three years ago. Like most things in life, there's always lots to learn along the way! Maybe I use a lot less pressure when I sharpen - who knows? I can say that I had very minimal dishing after a half dozen sharpening sessions (3 knives each session) when I finally got my flattener. I'll admit that my experience is limited to my equipment only. By extension, my references to grit sizes are based on the grits I own.

For clarification, the "1000 Suehiro" from Mike's Tools is actually a Splex stone, so it's the same manufacturer (& 'level of quality') for both that one & the 1200 grit. Sorry I forgot to mention that! No, they're not 'top-of-the-line' stones; probably comparable to King stones & a few dollars less expensive. But they're half the cost of Besters (from CKtG), & if you're not sure you'll want to keep at this sharpening-by-hand thing... The 6000 Suehiro _seems_ like a great deal to me, but I'm sure there may be comparable deals out there that I don't know about.

I should add to my earlier response by saying that my point of view is usually geared towards _seeing if someone is committed_ to the new (to them) world of hand sharpening. Lord knows I've spent far too much money on new hobbies, only to find out that I wasn't really as interested as I thought 'd be. I certainly don't want to become a knife user with a collection of expensive sharpening equipment that I no longer like or use! So when I got started, I chose the path of least expense. It's worked out very well for me, as my meager collection of mismatched stones allows me to put a nice edge on everything from my 440A Cutco santoku (don't judge me - it was a gift!) to my VG-10 Kanetsune gyuto, to my friend's 40 yr old carbon Sabatier chef's knife. Because of my (personal) success with this approach, I sorta cringe any time I hear someone getting ready to plunk down gobs of cash when all they really _need_ to get a good edge is a single, _affordable_ stone.

So, to give everyone a better idea of where I'm coming from, here's what I own for hand sharpening equipment:

1) Splex 1000

2) Ohishi 3000

3) Suehiro 6000

4) Sidewalk chalk

5) Nagura

6) Spyderco Medium ceramic

7) Spyderco Fine ceramic

8) Arkansas 'surgical black'

9) Large deerhide strop (6"x22") on oak, CrO waxed

10) Small deerhide strop (3"x22") on oak, nekkid

11) Hard felt 'furniture' pad

12) Wine corks

13) Norton flattener

14) Eye loupe

Typically, the harder VG-10 knives (Kanetsune & Shun) get sharpened on the water stones, while the softer knives (Cutco, Forschner, Foshan) see the Spyderco ceramic bench stones. Just my way.... Also, I rarely strop the softer knives on the small strop. I never use the 'surgical black' any more (same finish as the Spyderco Fine ceramic, but _way_ slower), & since I now have a 'real' nagura chalk stone I no longer use the sidewalk chalk for making mud.

Thanks for listening.... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

bhwtt said:


> BDL, you seem knowledgeable on the subject of sharpening/stones . . .


What an understatement! Ha!

A 500 grit stone is used for major reshaping or repair, so isn't something you'll necessarily need starting out. Also, the coarser the stone, the more metal is removed, so there is more potential for damage in a short time. Best to start off on some beater knives and at a higher grit.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Posted by *bhwtt* 


> BDL, you seem knowledgeable on the subject of sharpening/stones, so do I need a 500 grit stone? Some, as you probably have read here, don't recommend starting with anything lower than a 1000 grit stone. Any thoughts on this? Just to clarify my situation, all my knives at the moment are German, some of my which are pretty dull and at least one, the paring knife, has some damage to the tip.


Generally speaking, if you use your knives frequently and sharpen them as often as they should be sharpened, the edge angles will be become increasingly obtuse and require thinning (aka re-profiling) -- assuming, that is, the factory angles were good ones and the knives didn't require thinning from the beginning.

More specifically, YOU need something fast and coarse enough to "thin" (aka re-profile) your old knives. And that means something 500# or coarser. The joker in that deck is that _coarse stones have consequences_. Screw ups will show, be difficult to correct and possibly effect the performance of your knife. That means you should already be a fairly competent sharpener before putting a good knife on a coarse stone.

As a rule, it's a good thing if you both understand the sharpening process and can hold an angle well enough to sharpen a knife on a medium coarse stone (around 1K#), and create a fine, fresh-metal edge; AND then follow it with a fairly fine stone (3K# or finer) and actually improve that edge. Unfortunately, it's not automatic and requires some practice. Fortunately, it won't take you years. We're talking in the neighborhood of 6 to 10 edges for most people to develop that degree of basic competence.

As it happens, I have a lot of stones (not to mention other sharpening junk) including oil stones, and would choose a Norton coarse India to do that work. Also, if you were going to use nothing but your old European knives, I'd recommend buying an all oil stone sharpening kit.

"India" is a trade name, not a generic description. Norton India stones are well made, inexpensive, synthetic, aluminum-oxide stones. They are not the best of the type on the market (probably Razor Edge), but they are well priced. I don't recommend that anyone purchase all three India stones. Neither the coarse nor fine does anything that much better than the medium. Rather I suggest that if you're going to build an oil stone kit using Indias, you get the coarse and fine, or the 1" combination stone (IB-8). For what it's worth, I follow my India stones with Arkansas stones because (a) even the fine India is far too coarse, and (b) India edges tend to dull quite a bit more quickly than Arkansas edges.

However, if you're going ahead with your plan to upgrade to knives made with stronger, harder alloys than those used in your Euros' and will only purchase one sharpening set (like sane people do) I think you're better off going with water stones. You'll eventually need at least three: coarse, medium and fine. And you might as well buy them all now. As it happens, coarse stones tend to be inexpensive. The identities of all three particular stones in your water stone set depends more on your budget than anything else.

For right now, see if you can't find an inexpensive sharpening service to re-establish the edges on your most used knives and to regrind the broken tip. There's nothing so special about them that they can't be sharpened by machine -- which is how services sharpen -- until you're ready to start learning.

BDL


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