# Steakhouse Scare



## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

The area that I work in is a resort village with several high end restaurants, shops and hotels on a lake. Two of these restaurants are run by one of the Keller boys. One a steakhouse and one a bistro. Well, while eating at the steakhouse they own last night, one of the people at our table asked if the prime rib was cut from a 109. The server politely indicated that she had no idea, but that she would ask the chef. She returned a few minutes later only to inform us that the chef had no idea what a 109 rib was. Now, is it just me, or should the Chef in a steakhouse serving $50 cuts of 16 oz. prime rib know what a 109 rib is. Especially if this guy works under the Keller regime. I am regularly dismayed at the quality of people that call themselves chefs. I already knew that this guy was not the most organized, since he is in one of my kitchens borrowing product about once a week, but this seems ridiculous.

Am I being too critical?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

What's a 109?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

... Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

Hey, I think there are some casinos out here looking for a comic headliner. You should try out.:lol:


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## link138 (Nov 23, 2007)

Its true though, a lot of chefs do not know there basic meat cuts.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

What do you suggest we do about it? When I was in school, our butchery test consisted of supreme-ing an orange. No kidding.... We had a few hours of butchery demo, no practical modules whatsoever except a few salmons to fillet. Our college had a full butchery facility build, only to be scrapped before ever being launched. When I started working in restaurants, even the good ones were using top quality cryovac. I can't really blame them. We didn't have the space or the facility to store much of anything. At a 4 diamond hotel I was working, chef brought in half a carcass for demo purposes - bless her. But unless we do it every day, butchery is a difficult concept to learn... 

I learned a bit of butchery on my own by watching one of the city's better butcher taking apart carcasses at 7 AM. But again, without practice....

Lucky you for having the steakhouse experience. I would kill for that. Is that where you learned your skills?


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## longislandtommy (Aug 16, 2007)

We went over our cuts and fillets (fish) very briefly. When talking to my chef he said the only way to get good at them is to practice it out in the field.

Im still in culinary school but the way I see it is school just teaches you the technique but the only way to get good at what you do it being on the line. I have been a line cook for 2 days, and culinary while very important does not prepare you for working on a line. Only experience.


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## cat man (May 7, 2007)

I deal with lot of 'chefs' and not many of them have the Meat Buyers Guide memorized.
Many of them have no idea about trim specs and MBG numbers.
They all know what a PSMO is, but few could tell you the MBG code for it.
If you ask them whether they want an 0x1 or 1x2 Lip-On, they look at you with a blank stare.

Personally, I don't hold it against them. Their job is to run their 4 walls, my job is to supply them with want they want, and try to educate them about alternatives and up and coming products.

No point being condescending about it. It is what it is.

Cat Man


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

I've been involved in this industry since 1976 and it still amazes me how much each group (I'd like to say generation but it's really not that) of new people be it Chef's, Cooks or Managers so often leaves behind, abandons, dismisses or just plain ignores the things that some of the more experienced try to teach. In some instances much of the information that was once needed to know for basic purchasing is no longer used. The industry has spent so much time trying to "Idiot proof" things.... we've done nothing more than create a bunch of idiots in many instances. 

Catman mentions the MBG or Meat Buyers Guide. We studied this in school and although we never broke down a true "side of hanging beef" we had to understand the code and the cut's, trim and quality associated with them. For the life of me I can't remember many or almost all of them and had to look up things like a 423 Alternative option, 103 Chuck end, 232 Split loin just to make a refferance here. Very few people use these anylonger, especially in the restaurant industry. Although a Rib 109 is a pretty standard cut and should have been understood by the Chef that was mentioned at the beginning of this topic. Yet in that Chef's defense I don't even believe a fraction of those codes are used past the Broker or Distribution level.

Having worked as a Butcher (in training) for a major South Eastern grocery chain I can tell you that most of the butchers there didn't even use the codes. Long gone are the day's of hanging beef, saw dust strewn floors and on-site processing. So too many of the cuts that were once available at the grocery store and even the local distributor level are no longer available. It was been explained to me that most of today's meats come out of 4 central processing facilities. Except for the very rare occasion that a local operation would receive sides of hanging beef to process, most is broken down into manageable , cryovac units. Heck we didn't even have the over-head rail system at the store I worked at and if I remember correctly .... most of the stores that still have the rail in place use it more to hang a steel or coat on than anything else.

Anneke commented that "unless we do it every day, butchery is a difficult concept to learn..." and that's absolutly correct! Heck I really have to think about things even when I go to break down a Butt that I just bought at Costco and I've done a couple hundred if not thousand of them over the last 30 years but then again I do it maybe once every 2 years now!

"What should we do?" was also asked. I believe nothing more than make it part of the criterea on a extra credit basis to the student(s) that have the desire to increase their knowledge base and say "I broke down a side of ........". There's no reason to make something that is nothing more than antiquated information in today's industry a portion of the grade other than as an extra. Some of the things I've done throughout my career I done for the sheer fact that I just wanted to have the knowledge to draw from. I'm sure if I had to today I'd probably "Butcher" it worse than one of Freddie Krugers victims but after a couple........Ya never know when you're going to need to know how to break down a side of beef, or anything else in life. Infact, someday, your job and even existance or survival may depend on it. Personally I'd rather have a mind full of "useless knowledge" than a mind half full with nothing but useful knowledge. 

Anyhow knowing the codes isn't near as important as being able to recognize and know what you're serving AND effectively train your staff and guests about it.


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## mahavishnu nath (Nov 27, 2007)

Hey,
I cant help but wonder if she, the server, went back in the kitchen then came out and placated you. She probably went out back for a smoke so it looked like she inquired! 
She probably just got jilted by the chef so she makes him look like a donut hole! 
These celebrity chef types could be off property!!!Remember Rocco Di Spirito, what a hose!
Of course I cant deny everyones a chef these days. The title is so diluted its almost embarassing.
I happened to train as a butcher in Baltimore. I am thankful that I have the knowledge of which you speak.
It keeps the carnivore purveyors a respectful distance from hosing me on the subject!


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## rivitman (Jul 23, 2004)

I had to use NAMP guide cut numbers to circumvent knuckleheaded grocery salespeople. The only way to get what I needed sometimes.

As to what is and isn't a chef these days, I can tell you it's bad in the USA and getting worse every day.

For further explanation, go here, where I was invited as guest blogger for the local food columnists weblog:

- Today's fresh sheet: A grunt's perspective

You can read the whole debate if you wish, or I can sum up the lack of professionalism:


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

Thankfully here in Vegas, you have the mega hotels that all have butcher shops supplying meat to the various outlets in the hotel. Everything from grinding their own burger and sausages, to in house dry aging and cutting of premium beef for the Gourmet Rooms. When you consider the savings per pound in a place that is buying thousands of pounds of meat a day, in house butchery makes a lot of sense. Most of the cooks in these places at least get the opportunity to rotate through the butcher shop at some time. I was lucky enough to get quite a bit of butchery training in culinary school, as well as an extensive tour of the local Oscar Meyer plant. I also got to work in some great restaurants that did buy in hind quarters, lamb saddles and lots of whole fish.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

last wednesday I broke down a 162# half hog......in about 45 minutes by myself.

sold the leaf lard, ham, ribs, belly and 6# of loin....baked off the shoulder, roasted the spine and made stock with the feet, gave away the kidney and have a significant amount of loin left.....

Never knew what happened to the head....and have to have a talk with a pig farmer about a missing liver.

Basically made money and have a loin + shoulder to consume.....plus rich stock.

I've seen lambs broken down as well as beef halves....not done those myself.
A few months ago I was stumped by the terms for cuts at Restaurant Depot....flat irons, hanger steaks, etc are all very curious cuts that I'd love to learn how to properly cook.....


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

The hanger steak is #140. It comes from the lower portion of the diaphragm, and spans the spine and last rib. It is moderately tough, but loaded with flavor, so rare to medium rare is best.

The flat iron steak comes from the #114d or top blade roast of the chuck. It is commonly regarded as the next most tender steak after the tenderloin, but as it is from the front of the animal, it has more flavor.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I've not picked up the MBG, a friend says they are available on line in a binder format. 
Weird cutting up an animal and not necessarily knowing the technical names of the cuts.....other than shoulder, shanks, belly, loin, ribs, ham.....leaf lard, fat back.


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## phoenix 12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Hmmmm Very interesting, and thank you for this thread. The reason I say this, for my puchasing class I have to do a 8-10 page paper on something that has impacted the industry. I think this might do it. Thanks,

Mike


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## quinn01 (Apr 22, 2006)

I am a student at the CIA and one of the first classes you get in the kitchens is seafood id and meat id. In meat id the major thing they teach you not only is how to fab meat, but the proper codes that you need to know such as a 109. 

If you are working under a Keller, you better **** well know your codes. 

So i agree with you. Id be pritty unsettled as well.


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## quinn01 (Apr 22, 2006)

I am a student at the CIA and one of the first classes you get in the kitchens is seafood id and meat id. In meat id the major thing they teach you not only is how to fab meat, but the proper codes that you need to know such as a 109. 

If you are working under a Keller, you better **** well know your codes. 

So i agree with you. Id be pritty unsettled as well.


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't know, but I did notice that this was your 109th post! Being that you're from Las Vegas, I have to ask "Was it coincidence or luck of the draw?" 

doc


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## the_seraphim (Dec 25, 2006)

i dont often call myself a chef... i watched masterchef and i couldnt come up with an idea for a meal (although when i saw their meals... they had all used crushed potatoes, i dont remember anyone saying potatoes were avail else i have a great idea... anyway)

i dont know my meat.... its all cryovac this and cryovac that

everynow and again ill get a turkey with some innards still inside but they are turkey crowns so its hard to work out what each bit is...

i would love to learn even 100th of what some of you seem to know, i may move to america just to get a job at a decent restaurant... i may save up and go to culinary school (not that i have the time or the money...) 

i may go to my local butcher and ask if he needs any help early mornings or something, ill move **** round and he shows me about the cuts or something...

im a line cook at best and an ex mcdonalds employee at worst.


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

Pure coincidence. I never noticed that it was the 109th post. Too bad I'm not a gambler , or I would have to go bet 109 on something. Funny though.

Seraphim, you can download the Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications online. It has all the codes, color photos of every cut and descriptions. It is published by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Very handy.


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## crimsonmist308 (Jan 27, 2008)

having read the posts regarding the cut numbers and such, i asked a friend
of mine, jim the butcher, if he could tell me what a rib 109 was, and he couldn't.

jim is a retired butcher with over 45 years experience from a pretty 
good little old school butcher shop. i used to visit his shop once in a while
(couldn't afford the meat so i would visit just to googoo at the beautiful cuts)
and he could really butcher meat!

beautifully cut, beautifully laid out meat, but ask him about numbers and he says he has never learned about numbers ... but ask about different cuts and 
he could give you a beautiful chop, roast, steak or whatever PLUS a great recipe to use with it.

i suppose it is a better sign if one could actually name cuts by number, but i think it is even better knowing how to cook it.


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## shakeandbake (Feb 24, 2007)

Steakhouse Scare seems like a drastic title for this thread, but I'm not trying to judge.

I'm not a butcher or a trained chef, but asking your server if your meat is 109 (102, 1004, or whatever :crazy seems a bit pompous to me. Would it be better to ask the server to check with the chef to see if the cut of meat was Prime or Choice? I would like to think that the chef would have understood and the waiter would not be uncomfortable asking.


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## crimsonmist308 (Jan 27, 2008)

i am with you!! the odd part is that if one is "smart" enough to know what a rib 109 cut is, then one should be able to recognize it as well and so should not have to ask the chef if it is a rib 109 or not!

also!! no insult to you, but generally speaking, if a cut is prime or choice, this fact is generally mentioned in the menu or at least indicated by the price.

then again, old time prime is a different animal than a modern prime. in the old days, a prime animal was a grass fed five year old animal that was fed corn in the last 6 months before slaughter, and then only if it had the proper lean/fat ratio and proper marbling. i imagine that even a choice
grading in the old days would be tastier than a prime rating today.

except maybe for some wagyu beef ... otherwise known as american kobe beef.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Helps to be able to talk the lingo. 

I always wondered though, why an 0x1 is cut like that. Why not 0x0?


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## dano1 (Oct 23, 2003)

thought it was a 1X0.....


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

a 0x1 sounds like a memory address on the stack of computer memory to me . Usually not an address one wants to access during the running of a computer program.


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

The question was asked before the order was placed. The question of prime or choice had already been answered, and the purpose of the question was twofold. To determine whether the prime rib was a bone in with the proper trim, and to find out if the Chef knew his product. Our company is in the process of buying this steakhouse and we wanted to determine if this guy was a contender for the job once the takeover is complete. I wasn't really looking for commentary on whether or not I am a show off.
When you consider the wealth of knowledge that people on this website have regarding everything from chemical food additives to sustainable farming practices to obscure food from around the world, I would have figured that a basic piece of knowledge like this would have been commonplace for a steakhouse Chef. Even if it wasn't, how hard is it to google something and answer the question properly, rather than tell your guests that you don't know the answer.


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## montelago (Nov 19, 2007)

And by the way Shakeandbake, the 109 designation has nothing to do with the USDA grade.


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## shakeandbake (Feb 24, 2007)

Sounds like you found what you were looking for and it looks like the chef didn't make the grade.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

They're both valid trim specs. 0x1 doesn't make sense to me either. 1x0 does; the rib end is thinner (from dorsal to ventral), so you'd want more tail to square out the striploin.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Is that why? For looks? OK I buy that explanation.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

It's what I'd want if I were roasting. I'd go with a 1x1 for steaks.


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