# picking a knife



## jester king (May 12, 2008)

hello, i've been cooking for awhile now, and all my knives at home well suck, so i'm looking for a nice new knife budget being around 100$'s, the main tasks i do are cutting various meats, slicing veggies/fruits, sometimes doing a fine cut on them, so i was wondering which of these knives would fit the bill

http://www.calphalon.com/calphalon/c...Id=CLCat100485

or

Tenmi Jyuraku Series Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

the santoku blade on that link^^

any insight would be great

thank you


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## lesstalkmoreroc (May 12, 2008)

Best thing for you to do is go and touch and feel them. See what you consider feels comfortable. What I use and what you'd like could be 2 completely different things. Plus don't limit yourself to a $$$$ amount for a set of knives, it's better to by one knife at a time and purchase high quality knives if thats what your budget allows.


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

thanks for the reply m8, i cant really go pick up and feel the knives, and the 100$ budget is for the one knife, not a set, but i've heard great things about both knives so right now i'm just trying to pick what one to get outta the two


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Go with the Hiromoto AS.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Agree with buzz. Between the two, the AS are much better. The AS are exceptionally good knives, and a relative steal at the price.

Caveats on the Hiromoto -- Presumably you already know the actual edge is not stainless, but carbon steel. Aogami Super (the AS in the name) to be specific. It's going to need a little extra care -- as in you have to rinse and wipe down after cutting anything acid, like citrus, tomatoes, or onions. The AS is very hard and requires water stones to do a good, reasonably quick job of sharpening. If you don't already have a good set of water stones, factor their cost in. I don't want to seem [email protected]$$, but if you can't afford to sharpen it, you can't afford the knife. A blade is only as good as its edge. 

If your home knives ever were decent, you might consider investing in a good set of stones and extending their life until you can afford the Hiro.

BDL


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

thanks for the replies m8, ya all my home knives are from walmart so there not good at all lol, i would love to save up from some stones for sharpening too


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

In that case, how about a MAC from the Superior line, and an 8" Norton combination (coarse/fine) India . 

MACs sharpen up very well, and handle still better. As good as anything really. Not the same, unbelievable edge holding as a Hiro AS, not the class, or the looks. Not as sexy as the Calphalon either. It's just a no-nonsense, pro knife. 

The Norton combination India (the famous IB-8) is a great stone. It will sharpen all but exotic steels, take most knives to razor sharp, is one of the two most common stones in any pro kitchen and is very inexpensive. The only problem with the India is range. The coarse side is a little slow for major repairs, and the fine side won't polish -- although, as I said it sharpens quickly and extremely well. Cutlery and More (great store, BTW) sells them as cheaply as anyone.

The equivalent waterstone is a Norton 220/1000 which is the first stone for lots of people as well as the anchor of a set of four grits (220/1000 and 4000/8000). The stone itself is reasonable, but you need a flattening stone to maintain it. By the time you're out the door, you've dropped around $70. 

On a more personal level, I don't like santokus. Well, not so much don't like as don't understand. If you have decent knife skills, you can get so much more production and versatility out of a 9" - 10" chef's knife. If you don't, a short santoku won't compensate for what you don't know even if it has a slightly flatter learning curve. That's me. If you like santokus, whatever works. 

My coarsest two surfaces are India, in fact they're an IB-8. My finer surfaces are a soft and a black Arkansas stones. A four stone set profiles, starts to sharpen, finishes sharpening and polishes. I use my "oil stones" dry as opposed to using them with oil or water. If you decide to get India or Arkansas stones talk to me about sharpening before buying oil. I didn't recommend Arkansas stones or any of the various tri-hones (you still see a lot of those in kitchens and butcher shops) because they won't work well with the hard steels you find in good Japanese knives. Since that looks like the way you're eventually headed, why waste the money? I'm also not recommending a rod-guide sharpening system, set of V sticks or any other gag. The good ones will cut too deeply into your budget. And I'm old and crusty enough to believe a pro should be able to freehand on a stone. In the job description, doncha know?

BDL


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## dirk skene (Feb 13, 2007)

The main thing is ... what are you comfortable holding? .... I use a 10" chefs knife. I DO NOT like the santouku. My prep cook LOVES a santouku. I also have a 4"


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

thanks BDL for the post, very informitave i must say, you say the AS has exotic steel in the handel, and the calphalon has a more hard steel, it seems that the AS takes alot more to maintain then the calphalon, so if i got the calphalon and a set of stones would that be a good choice? cuz i dontknow much about sharpening and would hate to ruin such a nice knife as the AS is


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

also can i get a link to those stones?

thank you


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Good thinking.

Here's a link to the IB-8 stone I told you about: Norton 8 x 2-in. India Combination Oil Stone - Norton Sharpening Stones

Learning to use stones isn't that difficult. Don't be intimidated. Learning to use one really well, takes some time though. I learned to sharpen in the Cub Scouts, more than forty-five years ago, and I'm still learning. You can practice on your Wal-Marts. If and when you buy a stone, let me know what kind and I'll teach you how to use and care for it. Remember that the IB-8, by itself is a stop gap. At most, it's only part of a set of stones. You'll either add to it or switch to waterstones with your first really good knives.

As part of your knife care regimen you'll also *need* to purchase a suitable steel if you don't already have one, learn to use it, and use it frequently. I'm sorry for not mentioning this before. If you already own and use a steel, you're more than halfway to knowing how to use stones.

The Hiromoto and the Calphalon are both _san mai_. Let me explain. A san mai knife is made of three layers: A thin, hard steel core sandwiched between layers of softer steel. The outer layers are called _jigane_, and the core is _hagane. _The idea is that the flexible outer layers protect the hard steel from chipping, dinging and breaking. Their softness makes a _san mai_ blade easier to sharpen than a blade made from a _hagane_ only, because most of the metal you remove is soft. _Warikomi_ is a type of construction, and a term you might run across. It's very similar to _san mai_. Although they're slightly different, for practical purposes you can regard them as the same.

The Hiromoto _hagane _is made from a kind of steel called "_Aogami Super_." _Aogami_ is a trade name for a group of of steels made by the Hitachi foundry. "Super" is a particular flavor of _aogami._ The word _aogami_ means "blue wrapper," because the steel is shipped in blue paper. _Aogami Super_ is not stainless, but it's actually fairly stain resistant as carbon steels go. It takes an edge extremely well, holds it unbelievably well, and considering how hard it is, is extremely resistant to chipping. Hard to sharpen, though.

The Calphalon _hagane_ is made from a steel called VG-1. The VG family is a group of stainless steels that were initially developed especially for knives. As stainless goes, VG-1 is very good. It sharpens more easily than similarly hard non-VG steels, and is more flexible and ding resistant. In the case of "damascus" look (look because they aren't really damascus), the _jigane_ is composed of layers of very soft stainless -- usually 403. (I'm not sure, but believe the Calphalon _jigane_ is 403.) The _jigane_ is ground than acid-etched to bring out the pattern. The layering and patterning does nothing for performance, but is quite attractive. The Japanese do not call it "damascus," but "ink pattern" because it looks like water that has had a drop of ink put into it. For a VG-ink pattern knife the Calphalon is very reasonably priced. The Calphalon is made to look a lot like a Shun Elite or Classic, and out of similar materials. But the grinding is different; the Calphalon is not as thin and won't give the same high level of performance. Also, the handle is highly stylized and idiosyncratic; you won't necessarily like it.

Please tell me what you like about santokus specifically, and why you're choosing one instead of a chef's knife. As I said, their appeal is a mystery to me, and I'm very interested in learning why others prefer them.

BDL


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

Often the Hagane is only and inch or so wide. You can see how they do it on this Moritaka page.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Buzz,

I'm not sure what you mean. I thought I understood Japanese blade construction, but you've got me doubting myself.

My understanding of _san mai_ (three layer) construction was that while the steel for the _hagane_ may start as a pied of bar-stock, it is eventually forged (or rolled), flatter and wider and extends through the entire knife. Is this wrong? How?

Further, my understanding of _san mai _(three layers) was that after forging (or rolling and stamping and forge-welding), the blade is ground to shape. When the grinding cuts through the the _hagane_ is either exposed all along the circumference of the blade, or else very nearly. Is this wrong? How?

My understanding of _warikomi_ (thrusting in-between) was that it differs from _san mai_ only very technically and that _warikomi _does not include suminagashi (ink pattern), but _san mai_ is more generic and does. Is this wrong? How?

And, that _hon warikomi_ was that it differed slightly from _warikomi_ in that the _jigane _covers everything that doesn't sharpened; i.e., spine, top of the point, etc. Is this wrong? How?

BDL


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

I believe you are correct on all counts. Watch the following videos of Moritaka Hamono inserting AS into the jigane. Notice that it does not penetrate deeply. I don't think any amount of hammering will result in more than half of the total blade width containing the hagane.

YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #1
YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #2
YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #3

I don't know if this is standard procedure for other companies or not. I do know this though, a professional sharpener who specializes in Japanese knives was working on a Moritaka and the hagane actually came loose rendering the knife useless. I own three Moritakas and do/did have an issue with one of them, a 220 x 110 Chuckabocho. The edge had been ground so thin it was not really sharpenable and I sent the knife back to Japan. They told me the knife will be okay but might take as long as year for the steel to totally harden. Hmmmm? I guess you have to age a Moritaka like fine wines and cigars. LOL They're the experts so this fall I'll put it to the stones and see what happens.

By the way, my other two Moritakas are perfect.


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

to tell you the truth BLD its really the only type of knife i've had, recently i've played with my mom's chef's knife and i like it much better accually, also i see people using these all the time, is it as good as stones?

Calphalon Knives Katana 10-in. Diamond Sharpening Steel - Calphalon Knives Sharpening Steels


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

No, it is not.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

No it's not. Buzz is still right. The right steel is a very important part of knife maintenance. Steels are best for keeping knives in good shape and for extending the life of a good edge. The small round shape isn't as good for putting the edge on a long, straight knife as a stone; it's difficult to control pressures, and steels which are coarse enough to sharpen, tend to be too sharp for knife longevity.

A steel which steels and sharpens is a short cut tool that's not really good at either task.

As I said, the appeal of santokus mystifies me. I think a 9" to 10" chef's knife is more productive for almost every purpose except where limited by the chef's size, knife skills or some limitation preventing a pinch grip.

Speaking of knife skills, I somehow got the impression that you're a beginning pro. If you're not we might want to consider how much effort it's worthwhile for you to put into learning sharpening and knife skills. There are easier ways to sharpen than on a free hand stone, and there are easier knives to learn than a 10" chef's. A "V" system like the Spyderco for instance. 

One thing that doesn't change though is: Don't bother thinking about a good knife unless and until you have good ways of sharpening and maintaining it. Otherwise, you'll just be throwing your money away. 

BDL


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

no m8 i'm by no means a beginning pro lol, i'm 17 and cook at home alot, and am frustrated with the lack of decent cookware around here, so i'm invensting in a great knife


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## buzzard767 (Oct 4, 2007)

17? Get a Tojiro 210 or 240 DP Gyuto from Korin.com. That knife will suffice for more than 90% of your cooking needs. Get a King combo 1000/6000 stone to keep it sharp here. Yeah, I know it costs the same as the knife but you need it. There is no other way and it will be a fantastic learning experience for you.


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

ya m8, only 17, figure i'd get myself a nice knife to learn on


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Why a Chef's instead of Santoku?

Santokus are very popular. In the knife world, they are "the hot thing" and have made serious inroads into the sales of short (8" chef's knives.). Their popularity, for whatever reason, is mostly among women. Compared to a chef's, a santoku is an easier knife to learn than a Chef's knife. It's smaller and easier to point. It has less point, and feels a little safer. The back of the knife is tall, and the handle is high enough of the board so that the cook doesn't whack knuckles on the board while chopping. Almost the entire knife is one width. Because "it is what it is," there's no "right" or "wrong" sections for a task. The wide body makes it easy to hold slice width, even if the blade is a little short for much of a slice stroke.

There's a right way to hold a chef's knife that resolves most of the differences between it and a santoku in the chef's favor. That's called the "pinch grip." The cook pinches the blade between his or her thumb and forefinger just past the knife's handle -- or bolster if the knife has one; preferably at or near the balance point. The top pad of the forefinger, between the palm and the first knuckle, lies on the top of the knife (the "spine"), with very light pressure. 

Learning to use the pinch grip is an unnatural act and takes months of home cooking to get used to, before becoming unconscious. It's something the cook has to think about and consciously adapt during the learning period. In short, a PITA, but it's well worth it. 

The thumb and forefinger control the knife's direction and keep it from twisting, the back three fingers keep the knife from falling out of the grip. The pinch grip doesn't require much pressure or effort and is less fatiguing than the alternatives. Pinching not only moves the biggest knuckles to the side of the knife, it rotates the hand in such a way that the knuckles are completely protected. For people with large hands, i.e., men, that's enough reason. But there's a lot more.

By moving the grip so far up the knife, the top of the knife is effectively shortened by a couple of inches -- making the knife a lot easier to point and control. By pinching the knife between thumb and finger, the same way you would any precision hand tool, the cook gets much better aim and control. By pinching the knife between thumb and finger, the wrist naturally stays in line with the forearm, pointing the knife becomes completely intuitive -- the point naturally follows the cook's eyes without a lot of "aiming." The grip resolves the control and knuckle issues. 

It has one drawback and that's the pressure of the spine against the forefinger. Some, in fact most, knife spines are very squared-off with flat tops and very shart angles going to each face. When the knife is used the spine presses into the finger and can get very uncomfortable. Professional cooks eventually develop knife calluses, but still suffer pain and/or numbness (I don't know which is worse). Fortunately, there's an easy solution. Just round the top and ease the angles a bit. It can easily be done with a sharpening stone, some sandpaper or a dremel -- and most sharpening services know how to do it, too. It's what everyone should do with a first knife -- but few know enough to do it. When I learned this trick several years ago, it changed my life quite a bit for the better.

The advantages of the grip are so great, that it should be used by any knife -- whether chef's, utility, or santoku -- regardless of hand size. 

The triangular shape of the chef's knife gives you three working areas. The point, the front part of the edge, and the back part of the edge. The front and back parts are different from one another in the amount of steel above them. 

The narrower front can be twisted as the knife slices to easily control the angle during a slice. The wider back will hold an established slice, once started. The difference is like the difference between jig and circular saws. The extra length of a chef's knife makes a positive difference when slicing. A longer stroke cuts smoother and straighter, then does sawing back and forth. The wider back has more weight behind it and chops more efficiently -- especially through tough roots like carrots. Front of the knife for slicing, back for chopping, middle does it all. That's not too hard to remember is it? 

The curve up to the point leaves some metal on the boars while the cook "rocks" the back of the blade up to clear it from the board. The technique doesn't have a formal name but is sometimes called rocking, rock chopping, or point down, or point on the board. It's very important, and used all the time. It can be done with a knife that doesn't have much rise to the point, like a santoku or a Chinese vegetable chopper. And depending on the skill of the chef, it can be done just as well; but it cannot be done just as easily. 

So, a chef's knife is better for everything pretty much. A bigger chef's knife is better than a smaller because it can do more work at any one time -- chopping through three carrots side by side, rather than two for instance; slices better, and has more sharp length to use up -- so it doesn't need to be sharpened as often. Weird, but true dat. On the other hand, longer is harder to control and needs a bigger board. One thing about length. As a general rule, a cook should use the largest, comfortable knife. For most this is in the 8" to 10+" range. Most pros, male or female, stay at the long end of the range. 

The 8" is less expensive, easier to control, and included in darn near every "set." The fact that it's the generic set's knife should alert you to the fact that it's a "housewives'" knife. In other words, more easy than versatile, and less demanding of technique. If your board is big enough a 9" or 10" is worth the expense. Let the pinch grip take care of the control issues.


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

ya m8 you seem to know your stuff when it comes to knives, i think i've decided on the calphalon 8" chef's knife, and a set of stones mentioned here, also can i get a reason why that steel i showed isnt as good as stones?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Buzz picked one of the very best choices in your price range for a knife. The King combo is an okay stone.

Tojiro DP (Buzz's choice): Great price for "exotic" _san mai_ construction. The core steel is good but not great. Sharpens easily considering it's hardness, holds the edge well, steels well. A few people feel it chips too easily, most people say the knife is tough enough. Fit and finish is usually okay but not great -- especially around the handle. Lots of people don't like the handle, feeling it's too angular to be comfortable. Good, neutral balance.

Forschner (Fibrox and Rosewood): Inexpensive, stamped steel knife made from fairly soft stainless -- the same production technique and steel used in Forschner's Swiss Army Knives. Sharpens very easily. The edge is subject to rolling and seems to dull quickly, but is easily restored by steeling. In the greater scheme of things, the Forschners hold an edge adequately but not well -- in fact, that's their biggest weakness. Fit and finish is exemplary. A bit heavy compared to the other knives discussed here, but very light compared to forged European knives. The Rosewood handles are comfortable for every hand. The 10" chef's knife is well balanced for a pinch grip. Something we haven't talked about is blade profile. Forschner uses a "German profile" for its chef's knives, like most non-French European and American designed knives. I personally prefer a French profile, like French and Japanese knives. But IMO it's not enough a difference to make a difference for your first decent knife. .

MAC (Original Series - you can't afford the others): Inexpensive, stamped steel knife made from good steel to a GREAT design. The knife is extremely light -- something almost all pros like, but some people prefer more heft. The tip is rounded. The knife sharpens very easily, holds its edge nearly forever, responds to a steel very well. If you were a pro asking about your first pro knife -- this is what I'd jump to. Good fit and finish. I've never heard anyone complain about the handle. Good balance for most people.

Warther: This is an idiosyncratic choice. Moderately priced, very stylish, and somewhat idiosyncratic. A great blade made from great (stamped) steel. Not that easy to sharpen, but excellent edge holding -- on a par with much more expensive knives. Steels well. Good fit and finish.

The first three are knives are all excellent to learn on, and once you've developed some technique you'll feel you've outgrown them. The Tojiro will probably take you on to other, exotic Japanese knives. Your first French profile after the Forschner will make you wonder why I said it wasn't a big difference. Tojiro, Forschner and Mac will all introduce you to quality and make you thirst for better. You may eventually outgrow some aspects of the Warther, but it is a knife you'll keep forever.

Here are some retailers. Use the Google for the exact urls. Tojiro at Korin. Forschner at Cutlery and More. MAC Original at Epicurean Edge. Warther from Warther.

BDL


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

great post again bdl, i'll give all those a look, i'm not to hot on the "stamped" blade, i would really like a forged, full tang knife, thats easy to sharpen, holds an edge great, and will last a long time


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

A diamond steel cuts aggressively, takes a lot of material and leaves a rough edge. Coarser than a "butcher's edge," which is as coarse as you want a food prep knife. Although the edge can be made very sharp, it will not slice smoothly and will not chop cleanly. 

Knives need to be steeled a lot more than they need to be sharpened. Steeling a knife on a diamond steel wears the knife down very quickly.

The contact area between knife and steel is very small. Because the area is small, the forces (pounds per square inch) on the edge are quite large. This magnifies the effect of getting the angle wrong and has a tendency to cut notches and scallops into the knife. 

On the other hand, the diamond steel is very fast in the right hands. It's an okay choice for people who know how to steel and don't give a rat's @$$ about their knives. 

BDL


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

oh ok, prolly why i see them on those cooking challenge shows, because there fast, also on a side note, how do i post a "quick" reply?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

40 years ago "forged" meant quality and "stamped" meant cheap. That's not true anymore. While it's true the very, very best and most expensive knives are hand made and hand made means forged. You're not looking at anything like that. From a practical standpoint, up to about three times your price range, the performance and feel differences between forged and stamped are hype. There's nothing inherently better about a forged knife. In fact, modern stamping is more precise than 3 ton hammer forging. The Calphalons you're looking at are, I believe, hybrids -- with soft steel "forge welded" (i.e., sintered) around a stamped core. I'm not sure about the Tojiros, but I think so also.

All of the knives recommended have full tangs. That's overrated too in my opinion. There are some real advantages to full tang, but it's mostly the result of the switch from "true martinet" forging to "3 ton hammer" forging -- full tang knives are just easier to make in the type of forge that came into use after WWII -- so that's how they made them. Some of the best knives in the world, as well as quite a few in my block have rat tail tangs. A few of those are close to a hundred years old, so longevity isn't necessarily an issue. The only thing I don't like is the lack of rivets and exposed spine. I use those for measuring by comparison, and I'm glad my everyday knife (a 40 year old, carbon steel, 10" Sabatier) has them.

Usually edge taking (how sharp) is reciprocal with ease of sharpening and edge retention. The better one, the worse the other two, and _vice versa_. That's true of the five knives (my four + the Calphalon). The Warther has the best steel which takes some effort to move around however it sharpens very nicely and holds an edge better than any of the others. The MAC is probably the best balance of taking, holding and retaining. The Forschner, sharpens easiest -- which means a good job with inexpensive stones. It holds its edge about as well as any Europoean stainless knife -- as long as you use your steel a lot, which you should anyway. But, the rest of the group holds an edge much better than any European stainless knife. The Calphalon (based on what I know about VG-1 and knife geometry) and the Tojiro are about the same. The Tojiro will probably sharpen slightly sharper, but the Calpahlon will be a little easier _and_ hold up better in defiance of the general rule.

As a practical matter, if you're cooking for two and making most of your own dinners and half of your lunches, this means that you'd sharpen the Warther about every 10 weeks, the MAC, Tojiro and Calpahlon every 7 weeks, and the Forschner every month. You should steel any of these at least once every day you take it out of the block, and whenever you feel a change in sharpness. You could get away with steeling the Warther a little less frequently maybe. But better to have the habit of sharpening daily.

I've fooled around with a Calphalon Katana in a store, and done a little research on them but have no real hands-on experience using or sharpening them -- although I've used and sharpened VG-1 steel. I found the Katanas a little on the thick side for a Japanese knife. Great fit and finish. The handle design isn't for everyone. The "Damascus" pattern will scratch very easily with any kind of abuse, and mostly disappear over time with use even if handled gently. It cannot be cheaply brought back. Based on the little I know about them, the Katanas are a lot of value for the money and an excellent choice. I would have thought their big chef's out of your price range. If your money will extend to a MAC Professional, get that.

FWIW, none of these knives can go into the dishwasher. The Forschner Fibrox (cousin to the recommended Rosewood) is made to go into a commercial dishwasher, but a home dishwasher will kill it in no time.

Don't think you're going to get any value out of any knife without owning an appropriate system (including a steel) and knowing how to use it. All knives get dull. The world's most expensive dull knife is just a dull knife.

You also need a good board. Good as in wood or Sani-Tuff. If you don't have one, maybe that should come before the knife.

That having been said, it's important to get some perspective. All you really need is a knife good enough to learn some skills -- including sharpening and maintenance. This isn't an earth shattering, life-changing decision. You'll be fine with anything decent. When you know more about how to, and how you use a knife, you'll have more money and more choices.

BDL


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The steel is just a matter of orthotics... When the edge of the blade rolls or curves over, the steel will straighten it out. However, you can only do this so many times before the edge fatigues and breaks off. This is the "black crud" you wipe off of your steel and blade edge every time you steel a knife.


I strongly suggest having a peek of Lee's book, "sharpening", if only to look at the pictures. Thre are a series of pictures taken with a micron microscope an show the edge on razor blades and other edge tooks. From this you can get an idea of what a good edge looks like, what a rolled over edged looks like, and why sharpening with finer and finer abrasives is a good thing.


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## jester king (May 12, 2008)

once again thanks for the replies, i've looked at all the knives, and the calphalon 8" chefs knief looks to be the one i'd like, its 85$'s and i plan on getting the diamond steel to go with it and might get something else so i can get a free wooden cutting board, then i'll get the stones and practice on my walmart knives first


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

If you like your knife, don't use a "diamond steel". As per BDL's post, it (dia. steel) abrades coarsely, and depending on how you hold your steel and knife, you can put some very serioulsy wierd and inconsistant bevels on your knife.

Get the knife of your choice, but practice sharpening on some Mall-Wart knives, and if possible, stay away from 'lectric sharpening machines and diamond steels. Getting the bevel right is just a mater of practice, but as many have said, there are a variety of jigs that can pretty much assure you of accurate bevel angles.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

The local Salvation Army or like thrift shop is a likely source of knives in serious need of sharpening. The ones around me mostly have junk, but I've seen some fairly nice ones there too. But as a source of knives to work on sharpening skills, it's great.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Of course you and Lee are right that the use of a smooth or fine steel is to straighten the edge. "Orthotic" is a very strange word choice though. 

Lee's book is largely concerned with wood working tools and not kitchen cutlery. While I wouldn't bet that he doesn't sharpen better than me, I put more faith in a number of other sharpening experts -- especially Juranitch, Martell, Carter and others. I put still more faith in my own experience in the kitchen. Regular steeling, hand washing, and organizing the area around your board are the three best habits you can develop. 

A sharp edge -- which is by definition thin, bends and waves easily mostly as a result of impact against the board; but also cutting through tough foods like the dreaded pineapple skin (and whacking the board when it finally gets through). If you leave the edge bent, it will act "dull" even though it's still sharp because the "point" where the two sides meet to form the edge can't see the food. Worse, a bend will cause the edge to roll still farther and pull more of the edge with it. Consequently regular steeling is a VGT (very good thing). 

The downside, as you point out, is the constant flexing caused by steeling weakens the steel and promotes breakage in the same way bending a credit card back and forth does. (Sometimes that's actually a good thing. A steel can be very helpful in taking off a wire edge left by poor sharpening.) But at the end of a day, the regular use of a fine-grooved or smooth steel takes less material and does less damage than constant sharpening "touch ups" which grind the bend off rather than straighten it. 

The number of times you can use a steel before breaking the edge's metal depends on what type of "sharpening steel," the steeling technique, the edge geometry, the bevel angles, the type of steel used to make the knife, and a number of other factors. 

For general kitchen use most cooks should choose a round steel with fine parallel grooves, and should steel their knives with fairly quick, even, light strokes. The knife should not bang the steel, nor be used so quickly the user can't hold a constant angle. The steel angle should be the same or very slightly more obtuse than the sharpening angle. 

Knife "experts" often think of Rockwell hardness as the ultimate piece of information regarding the blade steel. More important are the qualities, strength, wear resistance, toughness and edge retention. They're all interrelated to one degree or another. Strength is most closely related to hardness. Strength and toughness usually proportionately -- as one goes up the other goes down. A strong knife is least likely to bend on impact, and most likely to degrade with steeling. A tough knife will bend, but take a lot of steeling before showing much damage. Think about it: The less steeling a knife will handle, the less it needs. The more it needs it, the more it can take. A VGT.

Almost all professionals using double faced bevels use a steel regularly. The exceptions are knives made from extremely strong steel, none of which are at issue here; and knives with unusual bevels which are also not at issue. 

An aggressive "honing" or "sharpening steel," so abrasive as to actually take metal and sharpen should be avoided by most kitchen users. Unfortunately words like "hone," "honing steel" and "sharpening steel" have no real meaning anywhere. The buyer must research and choose the sharpening steel carefully.

BDL


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Orthotics... must have them on the brain, on my 4th pair in 10 years and my feet still hurt....Musta meant orthodontics, or straightening out, of which I'll be experiencing second-hand very soon when my kids go for their annual check-ups....

Lee's book on sharpening provides a lot of information on sharpening techniques, and abrasive choices, mono and poly crystaline diamond stones, etc., but I strongly suggest skipping the chapter on kitchen knives. The micron photographs in the first two chapters are very valuable, and I have not seen any other authority on sharpening go through the hassle of making such photographs. In this instance, a picture is truly worth a thousand words.


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## dledmo (Apr 7, 2006)

Wow, there is some great information on this post and the "Best Knives to Use" thread! Steel knives have been covered very well, but what about ceramic knives? I have been wanting one for a while, kind of thinking of a 6" for veggie work. Does anyone own or has used a ceramic knife? Kyocera was pretty much the only brand for a while, now there seem to be several brands. Do they each manufacture their own blade or do they just rename a blade purchased from one major manufacturer? Keep up the good information!! 
Thanks!:smiles:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There are a few different types of ceramics used for ceramic culinary knives. Zirconium oxide, is the best. The edge will last longest, and the knife is less likely to chip along the edge.

The tips are always vulnerable. There's a good probability of breaking it off, no matter how careful you are. Another vulnerable area is the line where the blade goes into the handle. The handle acts as a sort of fulcrum and focuses a lot of energy there. This _usually_ isn't a problem unless the knife is misused as a prying tool or dropped. I don't know about your kitchen, but in mine knives are sometimes used creatively (and I don't mean opening paint cans), and sometimes get dropped (usually behind something that can't be easily moved). The internet is rife with sob stories of broken Kyoceras.

Speaking of misuse, the manufacturers recommend that you don't "chop bones" as that may chip the knife. Chopping bones is pretty much an Asian phenomenon; but any knife that can't take that level of abuse is liable to chip when it hits the board hard after cutting through something tough -- say topping a pineapple or going through a thick skinned squash. In my experience more blades are chipped by contact with board than bone. Something to worry about. Remember, you can't repair or reprofile the knife normal sharpening stones.

As you know, ceramic edges don't wear as quickly as even the toughest (which most people mistake for hardest) steel. They also don't bend, roll or wave as a result of impact. So, they require less care. Any knife, used enough, does dull; and ceramic is not an exception. By and large, ceramic knives should be sharpened and re-sharpened at the factory. I understand that it's possible to sharpen some ceramic blades on aluminum oxide wheels, but don't now for sure. You may be able to do some rudimentary sharpening with good diamond sharpeners like DMT, but I don't know for sure. Personally, I wouldn't own a knife I couldn't sharpen myself.

Ceramic DOES NOT get sharper than a well designed, well sharpened steel knife. Sharpness is a function of knife geometry, appropriate sharpening tools, and sharpening skill -- not materials. If you have good knives and sharpen them appropriately -- there's no gain here, except for frequency. In fact, if you're skilled there might even be a fall off.

The claim is that a ceramic edge will last "ten times" longer than a steel edge. In a commercial kitchen, that means every two months for a knife which gets moderate use. In your kitchen it might mean forever. I don't know how you use your knives or what degree of dullness you consider acceptable.

Ceramic knives are VERY light. IMO this is their biggest virtue. But it's a matter of taste. If you like a knife with "heft," you won't like ceramic.

I'm not sure how many manufacturers actually make their own ceramic knives rather than contracting them. I believe Kyocera and Eagle do. I don't know about Asahi and Boker. I believe the Chinese company, Ningbo Kaida manufacturers for sale under several different names.

My personal experience with ceramic knives is limited to Kyocera and tracks the conventional wisdom I've blathered above: They're knives that don't need as much sharpening but need to be treated gingerly. When they're sharp, they're just knives. Nothing special. When they eventually start to dull, they're either a PITA or junk -- depending on how you are about sending things back to manufacturers. Something I find overwhelming.

Your "veggie work," is somewhat mystifying. I use my chef's knife for all but the smallest vegetables, paring, or making the prissiest decorative cuts. I cut _brunois _and _julienne_ with my 10" chef's knife, and I believe that's the knife (or something very much like it) most folks doing Western cuisine with good knife skills use for most veg prep. We want something long enough to make long cuts with a tip-on-the-board rocking action; to "walk;" and to "run" the knife through rough chops and minces. But to each their own.

When it gets down to it, ceramic blades are more gimmick than breakthrough. Still, the current state of the market is that you can get fairly well regarded knives like Eagle and Asahi at reasonable prices, i.e., under $30 for a 6" utility shape. In other words, about the same price as entry level good steel. If you're interested, why not get one and try it? What's the worst that can happen?

Satyr Budweiser,
BDL


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## gunnar (Apr 3, 2008)

I love my knives, what few I have. I just started buying my set also. i went with the Henckel Twin Cuisine line.

Check it here:
Henckels Cutlery Online: Henckels Twin Cuisine and more

Very nice knife, takes an edge and keeps an edge well. I love the weight but most people in my kitchen complain when they pick it up. Almost all of the Twin Cuisine line will literally sit in your palm if you lay your hand flat and open your grip. Also a beautiful design no mistaking my knife from any other at any distance. Got my first three for 80 bucks apiece at the local store who's name i am blanking on. I handled these before I bought them, and loved the heft and feel of the ergo handles, they all have good action on a board (my boning knife is SO flexible). Would say take a good look at the Henckel lines in general as they tend to be a good knife at a good price.

Just be sure to hold and handle any knife before you buy it, best of luck.

p.s. every cook I have ever known that has bought a ceramic knife has broken them.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Solid German knives with ergo handles. Decent, but not great steel for edge retention and ease of sharpening. It's the same X45CrMoV that most German manufacturers use through most of their lines. Henckels uses a slightly different "ice hardening" and pushes the HRc a bit compared to the others.

Don't feel like you need to keep all your knives as part of the same brand. The only advantage I can think of, other than the way they look in the block, is that they'll all sharpen the same way.

Good e-tailer. Cutlery and More is very good, too.

Yes to very nice. As to taking and holding an edge well -- not really. A scintilla below average for up-market German knives. Doesn't sharpen as easily as a Forschner Fibrox or Rosewood, and not nearly as easily as any carbon. In fact because of their extra hardening, they're just a touch more difficult than a Wusthof, Messermeister or Lamson -- if not quite as bad as Victorinox "Forged." FWIW, they're not nearly as difficult as the stainless used in mid and up-level Japanese knives. In any case, you can use normal stones to sharpen well enough to cut _julienne _and _brunois. _ That's a meaningful bottom line.

Edge holding is consistent with other up-market German knives, perhaps a tiny bit better. But it truly sucks compared to Japanese knives in the same price range -- MAC Chef or Tojiro DP by way of examples only. FWIW, both of these sharpen as easily, too. One thing Gunnar didn't mention is how well the Henckels respond to a steel -- very well indeed. Another is the incredibly high level of fit and finish.

Excellent analysyis! The handles and heft give the knives their distinctive personality. They are by no means run of the mill. 
Depending on which three, could be a great price. Or could be a lot of dough.
More about, "Try before you buy," later. 
That's because it's intended for fish. That extra flex is critical for feeling the board and pressing the knife into a turn when taking a fish fillet off the skin. No law says you can't use it for pork shoulders and chicken thighs if that's the feel you like. No knife is flexible enough to bounce off fish pin-bones, and any sharp knife will take splinters off a chicken bone.

For whatever reason, Wusthof owns the rep as THE German knife manufacturer. In fact, there are a bunch of them making great knives of equal quality. Henckels is one. Make sure you look at Messermeister, F. Dick and Lamson (American manufacturer actually, but the knives are essentially German). At their top ends, the similarities of steel quality, fit and finish, blade profiles and handle-types within equivalent lines are far greater than the differences between manufacturers.

That said, if I were purchasing a bunch of knives in this price range, the first "line" I'd look at would be MAC Professional.

This bit of conventional wisdom is why I responded to Gunnar's post at all. Really, all he said is that he bought some great knives and is really happy with them. Which is great. And then I jumped in with a bunch of quibbles that are almost beside the point of the rich creamy goodness that is Twin Cuisine.

But, I've been thinking about the whole "try before you buy" thing for awhile and am just starting to articulate my thoughts. Think of yourselves as innocent bystanders.

When you pick up a knife at the store you're not likely to learn much beyond some general fit and finish observations. It takes a minimum of hours, more often days to get beyond whatever it is that you're used to and get a sense of whether the handle and balance really suit you. Even then, there are some surprises. Unusual handles, whether "ergonomic," or D shaped, octagonal, or whatever are problematic. You won't know until you've used them for a long time. For instance, Globals were incredibly popular for years. But everyone I knew who bought them -- amateur or pro -- eventually left because of hand discomfort blaming handle and/or balance. And every one of them loved the handles and balance at the store. So, go figure.

Most of the best knives in the world are either not sold at all in American stores, or in only a few in NY or SoCal. If you want a truly good knife, you probably can't follow the "try first" advice.

Don't get right or left-handed handles or blades unless you're sure that only appropriately "handed" people will use them. It's a safety issue. If you don't believe me ask any left-handed person about "regular" scissors. They don't work right -- er, properly.

Comfort aside, the questions of edge taking, holding and acceptable maintenance and sharpening tools and routines simply cannot be answered in the store. The edge that the factory put on the knife is meaningless in anything but the shortest term. If you're a pro, you'll replace it within days. If you're a home cook, it may be a couple of months but the day comes as sure as death and taxes. It's a lot of fun to talk about knives, and dream of spending our last penny on the perfect blade. It's no fun contemplating spending the same amount on the stones and steel NECESSARY to keep the knife in good order.

Fortunately there are some reliable knife purchase generalities. For instance, you're going to like any good European or American three-rivet full-tang handle. If Messermeister can do it, why can't the Japanese? Lower and mid-priced Japanese knives with bolsters (forged appearance) often have handle and fit and finish issues. MAC is the exception. Even the cheapest MACs have great handles and good F&F.

If it's mid-priced or more and it's European or American, it's well made. If it's mid-priced or more and its Japanese, it will hold an edge. Less reliably: US and European knives are heavier than their Japanese equivalents.

No matter what anyone says, the mass-produced German stainless knife that takes an edge easily and holds an edge well has yet to be manufactured. X50CrMoV (Victorinox "Forged," Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu, et alia) is better at edge holding than X45CrMoV, but in the greater scheme of things it's still nothing to write home about.

Most people prefer a little heft when they first try a knife, but over the long haul most with good knife skills prefer lightness.

Most people are used to the cook's knives with a German profile, but most with good knife skills who have tried both prefer a French profile (the Japanese _gyuto_ is French profile).

No knife is better than your sharpening tools and skills.

There are two general knives: Cook's and paring. Everything else is a specialty. Don't stint on your cook's knife. It should be right in every respect. Either plan on replacing $3 paring knives frequently, or get very good steel. You know which specialty knives you use frequently. If money matters, don't overspend on knives you only use a few times a month. There's no benefit to a "matched set." In fact, it's knife to know which knife is which in the block by looking at the handles.

"Forged" is often used as synonymous with quality, but it isn't. Those days are long past. Heavier is not better. Some of the best steels are stamped.

You don't have to spend a fortune for a knife that's as close to perfect as it needs to be. You're not going to find it for a few bucks either.

After that, the prospective buyer at the mercy of guess and internet reviews (the source of all truth), and internet "experts." When you ask, look out for people who recently bought what you're asking about; often they're too deeply in love or disappointment to be objective. Probably the best internet source of information is the "Knife Forum." If you're particularly interested in high to ultra high-end Japanese culinary knives, you want to add Fred's Knife Forum on Foodie Forums. Japanese knives are as over-rated by internet "experts," as German knives are by recent purchasers. Watch out for self-proclaimed experts. First there's the obvious fact that we often know a lot less than we pretend. Second, we have our own biases. Third, we tend to be hobbyists and make a big deal out of distinctions that don't actually make a difference.

It's easy to be seduced by very subtle differences that supposedly are "better." Keep climbing the ladder and pretty soon a little bit better starts to cost a he!! of a lot more. Comfortable to use, and easy to maintain: That's all there is, really. Other differences are for hobbyists.

Excellent point.

BDL


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

I think we've all qualified for a Master's Degree in knife selection and sharpening.

BDL- with all the time you've put into this, I hope it's a draft for the knife chapter of your forthcoming book.

For which I can't wait for 

Thanks

Mike


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## jiffypop (Jul 17, 2008)

It sounds like you have a lot of knives at home. At my restaurant, we perform a lot of cutting from raw fruit/vegetables to meats and chopping through small bones. To keep within budget, we reserve different types of knives rather than having all extremely expensive knives which does it all. At home, I keep a heavy duty butcher knife for the hard stuff and an above average cutting knife for the delicate items. Sharpening once a month usually does the trick for me.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I've rescued plenty of knives from GoodWill/Salvation Army - I don't find many forged, quality knives - but a lot of wood handle, decent stamped steel ones.

I reset the handles, sand/refurbish the wood and steel; Fix nicks, chips and tips, and then build complete sets from them. I even buy old knife blocks for them.

Why do I do this? Because I want people to cook! Every time someone brings me junk serrated, plastic-handle Ginsu-type knives to sharpen, I trade them up to one of my refurbished knives or a set of knives - depending on how likely they are to really use them.

I love "fixing" old knives and making them "new" again. My housekeeper left a complete set of JA-Z Hinkels on my block a few months ago. It took me a week of on and off fixing to restore them. Apparenty her husband learned how to steel from that Youtube video where the guy goes into hyper-drive on his knife-abusing speed-honing. The lands of her chef, slicer and utility knives had up to 3/16" of air-space between the heel and forward radius as they rested on my board.

I gave her some proper training on the steel - and requested she just throw it away if her husband is a slow learner... But fixed them all nicely. She came back a week later and could not thank me enough for how sharp they were.... I got a free stove and oven cleaning out of the deal - yay.


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