# Bread Help



## drewjsph02 (Jan 20, 2015)

Wondering if anyone can help me with reworking our house bread recipe. It's super basic and pretty bland. I was looking to add a preferment that we would make the night before and add into the bread dough in the morning.

our current recipe is 45# Artisan High Gluten Flour, 3 gallons of water, 12 ounces rapid yeast, 16 ounces sugar, 10 ounces kosher salt, 1/2 gallon canola oil. We mix it all up, portion it out into 1# portions, shape into 'baguettes' and cut on a bias into 12 rolls. Rise in the cooler and bake for 15 minutes at 450 F in a deck oven.

I'm wondering about the preferment, amount to use if I would need to take out any of the above ingredients in any quantity.... or any ideas. The owner is against a full overhaul...

Thanks yall


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Hi Drew.

I don't mean to answer your question with a question, but, as a retired owner/operator, shouldn't you receive the owner's blessing before you spend all sorts of time overhauling the recipe?? As I am sure you are aware, getting an owner to change anything is harder than separating an egg with chopsticks. lol 

There a many different preferments. What sort of preferment and what you do with it largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish in the final product. You weren't very specific in terms of your goals. If you could clarify what you are looking for, I think we would be in a better position to help you out.


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## sgmchef (Sep 30, 2006)

Hi drew,

Simple method is to just use part of the existing recipe ingredients. 

Maybe #5 flour, 1/2 gal water, 3 oz yeast, 4 oz sugar, mix, leave covered on the bench overnight. (More of a gloopy texture than actual dough) 

Next morning mix as normal using the remaining ingredients for the house recipe. No change in anything else, except a little flavor development.

Nothing has been added, removed or changed except method. Might be worth a shot if you talk to the owner first.

I was a baker but, I'm not a pastry chef though!


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## drewjsph02 (Jan 20, 2015)

sgsvirgil said:


> Hi Drew.
> 
> I don't mean to answer your question with a question, but, as a retired owner/operator, shouldn't you receive the owner's blessing before you spend all sorts of time overhauling the recipe?? As I am sure you are aware, getting an owner to change anything is harder than separating an egg with chopsticks. lol
> 
> There a many different preferments. What sort of preferment and what you do with it largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish in the final product. You weren't very specific in terms of your goals. If you could clarify what you are looking for, I think we would be in a better position to help you out.


No worries, the owner is fine with me changing the recipes to improve them, he just wasn't keen on me wanting to change our soft bread to a focaccia instead... I worked for a place years ago that would do a preferment like something mentioned by another user... I just couldn't remember the process


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

A suggestion......take a 1# portion of your mixed and rested raw dough. With a pastry scraper, chop it into small walnut sized pieces. Place this mass in a large bowl, add 1 quart of water and 2 cups of your high gluten flour. Mix until all traces of flour are gone. Does not need to be kneaded. 
Place the bowl covered in a neutral place for an overnight. The yeast that was there originally will continue to work on flavoring the dough. Next day use the mixture in your bread recipe.
Again....remove 1 lb. of raw dough to repeat again the next day.


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## dueh (Mar 4, 2015)

doing some quick math your dough is around 62% hydration, roughly. Sticking to that ratio or water and flour in your preferment will get you the added flavor you are looking for. Somewhere around 20-25% of your final dough weight. 

the problem i see with that though is where and how are you going to store such a large batch of starter? 18-20#


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well I'm old, but made 3 loaves of bread before. I can't even tell you what a pre-ferment is. I have seen the term frequently and came to the conclusion it is a new made up generic term for possibly 4-5 different things. Nor can i tell you what Artisan Bread flour is. Artisan high gluten bread flour, something in the 14's is usually used in European (so called starters) that can languish for long periods of time. 
Not being critical at all here, but that type of flour doesn't seem to fit in with your method and procedure. I interpreted your post as you were looking to make some type of sponge.
Just curious, are you letting the original dough take a nap before forming? Are you slitting the baguettes or actually making rolls? Just remember, when you mention pre-ferments, you're not using fresh yeast.
I don't know, I can't tell what added flavor your looking for. It's not sour, a rapid sponge is not going to do much for you.
I'd be interested in what you come up with. I'll add, since it's a rapid M&P, I would use fine ground Kosher salt instead of coarse. You'll at least have a better crumb.
I just keep picturing in my head 55 yrs. ago in France. course we never took a razor to unproofed dough, but I did do a 1 yr. stint making epi.
Sounds like you're not a bakery. You're producing for another outlet. Sometimes a better flavor profile can be achieved with more or less heat and topping before baking. just 2 cents


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## dueh (Mar 4, 2015)

panini said:


> I can't even tell you what a pre-ferment is. I have seen the term frequently and came to the conclusion it is a new made up generic term for possibly 4-5 different things.
> ... Just remember, when you mention pre-ferments, you're not using fresh yeast.
> I don't know, I can't tell what added flavor your looking for. It's not sour, a rapid sponge is not going to do much for you.
> I'd be interested in what you come up with.
> ...


A pre-ferment is simply a portion of the flour and water from the recipe with a small percentage of yeast that is just left to ferment. The yeast does it's job and creates the alcohols and CO2, which contributes flavor, and also reduces the overall amount of yeast needed in the final dough recipe. These are left 12-18 hours, usually peaking around hour 15.

the type of pre-ferment certainly depends on the final dough that is desired. 
Poolish: a 100% hydration preferment can be used in baguettes, focaccia, and loaves to aid in a more open crumb. 
Something like a biga, a stiffer preferment, is used in products where a fluffy springy crumb is desired, like the Italian Pugliese.

as far as heat goes that has more of an effect on the crust in my experince. The dough being described baked at 450 degrees F will have a more crunchy crust than the same dough baked at 350 degrees F as well as better oven spring and a slightly more open crumb, but not by much.

topping before baking is a great idea if the bread is scored. Some breads get a line of margarine or butter piped right after scoring to aid in rise within the oven, and can also contribute flavor.









this is what came to mind reading the description of the bread from the OP


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I understand, I guess i was taking my little stand on the term preferment without an explanation. It's sort of like the term'the common cold'. I'm quite familiar with starters and sponges. The lack of what flavor the OP was going for threw me off. I personally think the OP should go with a sponge, use the yeast until there can be a build up of outside yeast ,add salt, crap, what did we call it? sorry major chemo brain. oh yea leainde Chef?
If tho OP is in a position where speed is the driver. only the baker that can run to catch up to the dough will be successful.


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