# Who is your favorite celeb chef?



## nancya (Apr 30, 2001)

Okay, since we have been talking about Emeril and celeb chefs in general - and specifically  - who is your favorite celeb chef and why?

I like Alton Brown because he focuses on technique and explains why he uses certain techniques. I don't always agree with him, but he usually has some interesting points. Besides, he is pretty entertaining.

p.s. I like Emeril's recipes, I'm just tired of watching him.


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

Well, I'm another Aalton Brown fan myself, his show, Good Eats, is terrific. I especially like his 'housespouse'(shamless attempt at PC) method of showing people how to cook, and the research that goes into each episode.


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

Yep, Alton Brown gets my vote, too. The more a cook explains, the more I like. And boy does he try to explain. I like his corny jokes, too, and the funny chicken inhis kitchen. I don't agree with everything he does. But I do like how he has food scientists on his show.

I learned how to cook from television (Madeleine Kamman, Jacques Pepin and Julia Child all on PBS). In the 7th grade, I used to cut school just to watch cooking shows. This continued in college, too, when the TVFN made it's debut.


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## devotay (May 14, 2001)

Julia is God. Also I learned great things when I was a kid from Chef Tell and The Galloping Gourmet (he was much better when he still drank).

Todays winners are Mario ("MULTO MARIO!") and Ming Tsai. Also, while some of his stuff is condescending **** , I really enjoyed Bobby Flay's tour of Ballpark food.

When will we get an American version of Iron Chef?

Peace,
kmf


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

Kurt, check out the posting by thelogg, it's just a little further down the latenight cafe page.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Definitely Julia, forever!


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## nancya (Apr 30, 2001)

Truthfully, when I started this thread I wasn't even thinking of Julia Child. Julia is an icon and doesn't belong in the same category as Emeril and Alton, et al. As I have been thinking about it, I haven't come up with another chef to put in with Julia. Maybe Jacques Pepin?

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: nancya ]


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## svadhisthana (May 6, 2001)

Alton Brown, I love the show Good Eats. He's down to earth and I enjoy the science behind the cooking. 
Svadhisthana


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## pastachef (Nov 19, 1999)

In actuality I love to watch all of the chefs and cooking shows on tv. Having had no formal cooking education, I am always grateful for the opportunity to learn something new.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I used to watch Chef Tell and got a kick out of the way he would waft the steam rising off a pot towards his face, and his signoff, which I still use on the way out the door to the kitchen crew, "Ok, We see you." If anyone feels like doing their own show, a lot of local cable companies might be willing to talk. I had my own show for a while called The Grouchy Gourmet. The whole point of it was to cook dinner in half an hour and we shot it unscripted, unrehearsed and unedited. This does imply a rather thorough mise en place, but it was fun.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Pierre Franey and Jacques Pepin belong up there with Julia in my mind. But Julia does stand alone in her monumental achievement of getting a wider portion of the American public to pay attention to what they are eating out and preparing at home. Think back (those of you whose experience goes back this far) to the supermarkets of the 1950s and 1960s. No salsa, no mangoes, no fresh pasta, a very limited variety of fresh fish, no artisan breads.... instead, plenty of Velveeta, baked beans, Wonder bread and Swanson TV dinners (oy, vey!!). We were all excited when we managed to find Tabasco sauce, for heaven's sake! Someone who knows a lot more than I do about Julia's contributions could say it better, but without her unique style and appeal, this site might not even exist, for lack of enough people to care about things like fresh flavors, interesting textures and high quality ingredients.


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## logose (Nov 15, 2000)

This is similar to another thread about favorite on FTV Network. My favorite is Jaque Pepin (my Hero!). As I stated before, he is the consummate professional chef with the most understanding and knowledge about what he presents to you. He has vast natural talent too. 
Then Julia is the best of what I call professional home cook. The presentation of her knowledge is done in such a non assuming way. It made cooking a doable thing with cookable recipes. 
They both opened the way for all the other TV celebs, but with style and class to exhibit the passion and love for the culinary arts.


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## pooh (Mar 13, 2001)

Mez,

You're so right.

Julia, Jacques and Pierre are a wonderful trilogy in the cooking world. I grew up watching Julia. Later came Jacques along with his wonderful technique. And then, Pierre, I taped all his shows. Got all the books.

But Julia was the first and got me going!


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## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

My current fave is Michael Chiarello. He may only be an SF Bay area celeb chef, not sure. His web page is www.seasonbyseason.com. His receipes are good, has a personality and gets some pretty random guests. A few shows ago he had Jack Blades from Night Ranger and CeCe DeVille from Poison stop by.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Sadly we are down to One, but the Two Fat Ladies were/are a hoot! I'm not sure they qualify as chefs but they are on FoodTV. They never met a kind of fat they didn't like and they sure seem to have an awful lot of fun.


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## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

SeattleDeb....

Haven't been to his restaurant and not sure I'll be able to before I get outta here. We're moving to Denver June 18 so my uncoming schedule is packed and hectic!! Have you been?

logan


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## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

We used to live a lot closer to Napa/St.Helena/Sonoma (lived in Sacto) than we do now..so we've visited quite often. The service is kind of hmmm laid back..but I love sitting on the patio outside on a warm night. My favorite dish is very simple: Pasta cylinders with sausage, spinach, potatoes, sun-dried tomatoes and Pecorino. 
Another favorite place is Mustards for more casual dining. Then again, there are so many great places to eat in the area.

Tra Vigne also has a nice little delicatassen next door (breads, pastries, their oils, vinegars). Had great macaroons there!

I bet you hate to leave Los Gatos, I used to live right off of Saratoga-Sunnyvale Road.

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: SeattleDeb ]


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

I have always enjoyed Jaque Pepin


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## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

SDeb...

Sounds like you were in the Cupertino/Sunnyvale area. I work very close to De Anza and 280. Actually, I can't wait to get outta here. With the price of rent, gas, everything here I can't afford to eat at all the great places. And with the amount of traffic it's a pain going anywhere anyway. 

I think we are off the topic. 

logan


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## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

theloggg..have you been to Travigne? I like Michael too, I don't have his cookbook but his website has good recipes and we get his newsletter.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Jacques Pepin. Hands down. I love his style and personality. His background and technique are impeccible, and he was my inspiration when I was a young culinarian.
(Who is this Julia gal he does things with? Ha.)


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## markdchef (Jan 26, 2001)

Mario Batagli because of his passion for the ingredients and the stories behind the food.
Sometimes he is a bit much but I generally like what he cooks and love to hear about the origins of it all.

Close second would be Bobby Flay. His show is entertaining without the Bam! He has good chemistry with his sidekick Jackie. And the guests are almost always informative.
His restaurant, Mesa Grill, is excellent.


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## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear FRiends:

My most favorite "celebrity" Chef is Jacques Pepin.

I love his cooking as much as his personal style.


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

My all time favorite is Nathalie Dupree. I learned to cook from her PBS series. I filled in the blanks, covering most of what Nathalie didn't cover from Madelaine Kammen. I dislike those who are merely combining ingredients - Jeff Smith (who seemed to rely upon his assistants for actual cooking knowledge) and Emeril come to mind in that category. I like chefs who stress technique. Of the current ones, I really like Alton Brown and I do learn technique from him too, plus his show is just entertaining - I'd watch it even if I weren't interested in learning to cook.

I find I pay more attention to the "Every Day Cooking" chefs (a Martha Stewart production on PBS) than any others. I get more ideas for the type of cooking I like to do from that show than most. I like Bayless, but some of his dishes need to be tasted before I declare him "best". Some of those Mexican ingredients are acquired tastes, IMO. There used to be a woman on PBS, Ciao Italia, or something like that. I learned a lot from her too.

PS, I just looked it up. Ciao Italia is still on, just not our market I guess.

Mary Ann Esposito is her name.

Here I am editing again. How could I forget *Martin Yan?? from Yan Can Cook*. Wow, one of the all time best, IMO. All my friends ask for my Chinese dishes, and I learned them all from him. One of my friend's husband asks me to make chinese chicken salad (marinate cooked chicken chunks in sesame oil & rice vinegar, use as dressing) lettuce, green onions and thos fried rice noodles that explode the moment they hit the hot oil. I add toasted sesame seeds too, but you can skip them. He LOVES this.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

IndyGal, welcome to ChefTalk. Good topic to bring back up, especially since the celebrity chef is bigger now than ever.

My personal favorite "celebrity chef" is John Besh of New Orleans. He was the runner-up in the first season of The Next Iron Chef, and runs several extremely popular restuarants in New Orleans, the Northshore, and now in San Antonio (thank God).


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

The question is, what makes a chef a celebrity? Having a TV show? Or having a great reputation in the field? Or being a cookbook author?

I reackon now that he has a TV series, Eric Ripart is a for-sure celebrity. In my opinion, if he's not the best chef in America he runs whoever is a very close second. It grieves me greatly that we don't get his show in my area.

John Besh is up there too, for many reasons.

On the flip side, I used to rank Mario Batali pretty high, but he lost a lot of my respect after the attitude he showed during the Q&A. And it's no secret that I have no use for Alton Brown. I know he thinks he's a wit; I think he's about half right.


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## agchief (May 30, 2010)

I like Watching Lidia Bastianichon on "Lidia's Italy" it's as much a cooking show as it is a trip through Italy...along with Jacques Pepin's "Fast Food My Way", both folks make simple dishes with real food. I get hungry just watching them.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Nigel Slater.

Bill Grainger.

My two, current favourites.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I had to look at the date when the person toward the top asked when we'd see an American version of Iron Chef . 

I enjoy Alton Brown because he digs into things and explains them.  Once I read "On Cooking and Food", I realized Alton isn't the genius I thought he was.  He does his research though (or someone does), and it's hard to not learn something when watching his shows.  Some of his skits on Good Eats are rather annoying, but I feel like 30 mins of watching one of his shows will take a person further than watching most other cooking shows. 

I am consistently amazed by his ability to "announce" Iron Chef America.  I realize that there's a lot of editing and voice-overs that happen, but it seems pretty certain that he's following along with a lot of what's happening during the competition as it's occurring.  My reason for that belief is the interaction he has with the chefs when calling out what he thinks he sees or what ingredients are in a particular concoction.  The fact that the chef even remembers at that point is equally as amazing.

I'm starting to like Guy Fieri, which is amazing in itself.  I immediately dismissed him by his appearance and his demeanor.  However, DDD does get into kitchens and see actual recipes being made, and helps give some reality to how a restaurant kitchen operates.  A lot of the shows are based in house-like soundstages which make cooking look like something from the Jane Cleaver era.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

gobblygook said:


> I am consistently amazed by his ability to "announce" Iron Chef America. I realize that there's a lot of editing and voice-overs that happen, but it seems pretty certain that he's following along with a lot of what's happening during the competition as it's occurring.


I read a blog post from a food writer a while back about attending a taping of ICA. He said that there are several takes of the chairman's introductions, but when the cooking starts, Alton Brown talks from start to finish. He said is was just as impressive as the cooking. Whether or not it's true, I don't know. But the fact is, the man knows his food.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Emeril, _merely combining ingredients_?! You've got to be kidding.

BDL


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

I wasn't aware that Eric Ripert had a new cooking show.  Hopefully PBS or Netflix will pick it up. 

  Who is my favorite (living) celebrity chef?

   That's a tough one.  John Folse, John Besh, Lidia Bastianich come to mind for well known celebrity chefs.  Could we include in this group some of the wonderful producers that make the ingredients I so enjoy?  Some wonderful Iberico producers come to mind, some of the worlds better olive oil producers, two balsamic producers come to mind (one of whom I've already met),  how about some of the cheese producers!  Heck, KYH and his tomatoes would be up there on my list.

   But, for me...to really quantify things into what I would want... I would ask myself what celebrity chef would I like to meet.  Very few come to mind...and I can't say that I would actually talk about cooking or technique with any chef that I would meet.  What I would really like to do, is eat with a few of them rather than cook.  While I certainly have much to learn about cooking, I believe I could gain more knowledge eating and tasting with them rather than a short cooking class.

  What chef would I like to eat with?   For this I would keep John Folse, John Besh on the list and add Thomas Keller, Rick Bayless and at the top of the list would have to be Jose Andres.  To me...eating with any of these chefs would be priceless!

    dan


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

gonefishin said:


> I wasn't aware that Eric Ripert had a new cooking show. Hopefully PBS or Netflix will pick it up.


Hey Dan, it's a great show (I just discovered it myself a few weeks ago). You can watch it there:

http://www.hulu.com/avec-eric


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Thanks FF!

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Dan, the show _is _on PBS. It's called Avec Eric. Basically, he wanders around, seeking inspiration from the people who produce great food. That is, not necessarily cooks and chefs (although they're included), but the people who grow the olives, and tend the sheep, and harvest the oysters.

Unfortunately, our local affiliate doesn't buy anything that costs more than 50 cents an episode. So I miss out on most of the great cooking shows. Lidia (yay!) is about the only one we get.

So, now I'm in a strange position. I have the companion book, also called _Avec Eric _(and it's a great book, btw), but have never seen the show. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

KYH, I just shared the link to the show online. You can watch it now! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

And while there's some fishing, foraging, talking with food professionals etc... in every show Eric cooks, inspired by his wanderings.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYH, I couldn't find the show in my Chicago PBS line up.  Although French Fries link, to Hulu, will be perfectly fine for me though.

 dan


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## iconoclast (Aug 8, 2007)

chuck hughes, eric ripert, daniel boulud, jose andres, ferran adria, grant achatz, michael voltaggio.



nancya said:


> who is your favorite celeb chef and why?


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

iconoclast said:


> chuck hughes, eric ripert, daniel boulud, jose andres, ferran adria, grant achatz, michael voltaggio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 nice list!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Robert Irvine  As he does it every day, and can really pump it out.  And Rippert for being the class act.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

i don't watch any cooking shows, but rick bayless, eric ripert and mario batali are real teachers in my book...there is absolutely no gag factor with any of them..and jacques...well, he's plain and simple a national monument...

joey


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Thanks for the warm welcome, Tyler M!   I wandered onto this site by accident and this topic came up.  Of course I had to add my 2¢ worth.


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## jazzcook (Nov 23, 2010)

Is Michael Voltaggio really considered a "celebrity chef" now?  While he has gotten known from Top Chef, he doesn't have any books, shows, licensed products etc.  I will get to Volt one of these days, it's only about 45min from where I live...

When I think "celebrity chef" I think of who's out there in the media, in the spotlight, well known by those outside the industry as well as in...that's "celebrity" to me.  So for me right now I'd say Batali, Ripert, Ramsey (though I hate HK) and I'll add the beautiful Nigella to break up the boy's club heheh.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

KYHeirloomer said:


> The question is, what makes a chef a celebrity? Having a TV show? Or having a great reputation in the field? Or being a cookbook author?


I once had a marketing professor that liked to say that "A celebrity is someone who is well-known for their well-knownness." Meaning, it doesn't matter what makes someone a celebrity, as long as they are known as one.

For example, Bobby Flay became famous for TV, with Iron Chef, Iron Chef America, and his litany of shows. On the other hand, much of Wolfgang Puck's fame came originally from the popularity of Spago and his ability to schmooze with LA elite. Later came the shows and other restaurants that built the empire. All that to say, if you've heard of a chef, and he's well-known for his well-knownness, then I guess they are a celebrity chef.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, let's see, what makes a celebrity? Hm, Paris Hilton IS one.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

gobblygook said:


> He seemed like a food snob.


He is, and rightfully so. As someone mentioned earlier, he is one of the top 2 or 3 chefs in America right now.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

tylerm713 said:


> For example, Bobby Flay became famous for TV, with Iron Chef, Iron Chef America, and his litany of shows.


 Lol! I can't think of Bobby Flay without thinking of that young city boy who used to get mopped up by Jack McDavid, on the show "Grillin' & Chillin'" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif He has come a long way.

dan


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

WOW, I'm just so glad I'm not French................ such animosity to another nationality /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## jazzcook (Nov 23, 2010)

Ishbel said:


> WOW, I'm just so glad I'm not French................ such animosity to another nationality /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


I don't think that's fair - one person's negative comment compared to all the people who listed Ripert and Pepin as their favorites...

Why are you glad you're not French? Because of that one comment???


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Errrm - that was IRONY - it obviously went WHOOSH....

I just found it objectionable that  a sweeping statement was made about someone's nationality - as if that gave carte blanche (yep, a French expression)


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

jazzcook,

think perhaps you may have mistook the tongue and cheek humor..

joey

btw....where oh where are the female chefs? please don't say rachael, paula or giadia...they are not chefs...no way, no how


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## jazzcook (Nov 23, 2010)

Heh, yeah I guess I suffered a knee-jerk mis-reaction there, apologies.  It just struck me as such an odd comment, after all the accolades...should've figured it was in jest.

(now where is that "doh!" emoticon?) ;-)


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

It wasn't in jest, more like disbelief that it was considered an acceptable thing to say.

Oh, and for the record - I visit France at least twice a year, and have done for more than half my (long) life.... love the food, the culture and yes... most of the French people I've met!



jazzcook said:


> ...should've figured it was in jest.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

durangojo said:


> btw....where oh where are the female chefs? please don't say rachael, paula or giadia...they are not chefs...no way, no how


One of my favorite restaurants in New Orleans, Bayona, was started and is run by a very talented (and James Beard Award winning) female chef, Susan Spicer. She also has a very good cookbook called "Cresent City Cooking."


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## mikez (Jun 13, 2010)

Jacques Pepin is my hero. He taught me so much.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Angela Hartnett in the UK.  Outstanding protege of Gordon Ramsay, now in her own restaurant.

Skye Gingell - an Australian in the UK who has a restaurant in a garden nursery and has written a couple of great cookbooks.

Thomasina Miers - owns a couple of Mexican restaurants, one of which is called Wahaca.  I don't like Mexican food,but she filmed a TV series about the cuisine of Spain and the book which accompanied it is interesting and I've used quite a few of her recipes.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Any Celeb Chef that uses the stage as an interesting teaching platform, not for their own entertainment, Pepin comes to mind...............Chefbillyb


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_where oh where are the female chefs? please don't say rachael, paula or giadia...they are not chefs...no way, no how_

Have to disagree slightly. As much as I dislike her style, Giada is classically trained, and worked many years as a personal chef. Hard to believe, I know.

That aside, there are many great female chefs, but few of them have reached celebrity status of the kind that's being discussed. A few that come to mind just off the top of my head: Ana Sortun, Mary Sue Milliken, Michele Bernstein, Shirley Corriher, JoAnne Weir, Sara Moulton, Durangojo, Lidia Bastianich,....the list goes on and on.

Sara Moulton probably comes closest to the rubric, as an early Food Network star, restaurant chef, cooking instructor, cooking editor of the Today show, and executive editor of Gourmet magazine. Donatella Arpia (sp?) also comes close, even though she's never, to my knowledge, had her own TV show. Lidia, unfortunately, falls into the "world famous in Krakow" category. Amazing, to me, how many foodies do not know who she is.

The most powerful influence on celebrity status remains television. And, unfortunately, women are generally chosen for that media not so much for their talent but on the basis of how well they fill (or spill out of) a D cup.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

Two other notable female chefs that come to mind are Alex Guarnaschelli and Amanda Freitag.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

How could I have left out Amanda Freitag? You're right, she definately belongs on the list.

As for Alex G., I've never been impressed with her. Always seemed to be an FN created personality with no real talent. Maybe if she removed the maize core from her nether regions I could judge better?


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

I always thought the same thing about her (Guarneschelli). However, I saw an episode of Best Thing I Ever Ate, where she cooked something for her staff at Butter, and I was impressed with the way she interacted with the camera and the food that she prepared. I don't care for her show, and can't really stand her on Chopped.


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## mikez (Jun 13, 2010)

I guess ferran adria also


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

What I was trying to say, before I got infracted upon, is that I hadn't heard of him prior to y'all talking about him in this thread, with the exception of seeing him as a judge on Top Chef. I had no idea he was actually a chef, and because of that, I had a negative opinion of him from having seen him on that show. Had I known he was a big-name chef, I'd have not "judged" him as harshly.



tylerm713 said:


> gobblygook said:
> 
> 
> > He seemed like a food snob.
> ...


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Just for the record, I did not issue an infraction.

Whilst you may not have known who the man was (and I don't know him at all) you made a slur against French people - or that was how I and others seem to have read it.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I must of missed something, cuz I have no idea what the controversy is about, and can't find the original source. Nor am I interested in rehashing it.

What this does demonstrate, however, is the validity of my comments regarding what makes a chef a celebrity. Under Eric's direction, Le Bernardin has earned 3 Michelin stars and 4 NY Times stars. In fact, it has retained those four Times stars for the 20-year life of the restaurant---a feat unmatched by any other restaurant in history. He has three other restaurants, and has written four books (counting the new _Avec Eric_)

So, while food writers, serious diners, and other chefs certainly know who he is, and his influence on the world of fine dining, it took judging Top Chef for his "fame" to spread. I have little doubt that Gobblygook wasn't the only viewer to not know who he was.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

KY, I would take it a step further and say that some of the most talented chefs in the country (and even in the world) are relatively unknown to all but the most hardcore of foodies.  For example, I was having a conversation with friends at dinner three nights ago and mentioned Jose Andres, and his influence on the use of small plates at American restaurants. All of the people I was talking to love to cook, but none of them had ever heard of him. We talked a while longer and one said "Wait, didn't he help judge an episode of Top Chef?".


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've not heard or Eric until this thread. But I have neither cable nor satellite so I don't see most of the shows talked about. Local PBS isn't carrying his show right now either. Maybe in a year or two when it's cheaper.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _where oh where are the female chefs? please don't say rachael, paula or giadia...they are not chefs...no way, no how_
> 
> Have to disagree slightly. As much as I dislike her style, Giada is classically trained, and worked many years as a personal chef. Hard to believe, I know.
> 
> ...


ky,

you sly old fox you...you're making me blush..you may be happy to know that i don't spill out either...but, back to the conversation. i know that there are many, many, many talented women chefs...guess i was just stating my amazement that they don't seem to dominate the airwaves like their male counterparts... could it be that the women chefs are actually doing the real cooking/teaching somewhere....making a difference rather than 'selling out' for big bucks to be celebs. i am a bit surprised with your like of giada....she is so dorothy, toto and so 'somewhere over the rainbow"...geez, you can practically hear the birds singing! everything is just so rosy all the time.....gag......oh yeah, i too always cook in a low cut cocktail dress and 4 inch heels...one more rant....when she squeezes a lemon, its practically a sex act.....double gag!!!

joey


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I'm not really singling you out as this post may seem below. Just that Smith's cooking was very influential to me. His books remain some of my most used. We have very different taste in cooking shows it seems. Welcome to Cheftalk.



IndyGal said:


> My all time favorite is Nathalie Dupree. I learned to cook from her PBS series. I dislike those who are merely combining ingredients - Jeff Smith (who seemed to rely upon his assistants for actual cooking knowledge) and Emeril come to mind in that category.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...


Smith is who interested me in cooking and taught me to cook. I agree he didn't stress nor teach technique, but he did have it. The key to Smith in my view was he relished the food history and culture. Not the why's and wherefore's of cooking itself but how the food intermingled and celebrated the culture.

To say that Smith merely combined ingredients is to ignore the food that means the most to most of the world. It was often peasant and simple, but that's the core of all the great cuisines of the world. I wouldn't argue that Craig Wollam is arguably more talented in crafting or figuring out the recipe. But I still enjoy the youtube clips of Jeff Smith. He loved the food and was excited about it and it came through in the shows.

Every Day Food is a mixed bag to me. Some good, some mediocre and some bad. Outside of baking John is an idiot. Crap skills with the knife, poor knowledge. I mostly skip it now as they don't reflect what I want from a cooking show. It went downhill when they moved to the newer fancy kitchen and started costuming and makeup more for the cooks.

I watched a lot of Ciao Italia when i was first getting interested in cooking. It didn't take long though before she struck me as in over her head. I don't see much technique there even with the newer series being broadcast in my area.

Yan I enjoy watching. I don't cook from him much as he's adulterated and simplified much of his recipes in ways that don't usually work for me. His Chinatown cookbook is certainly an exception to that generalization as is Martin Yan's China. His later work is definitely his best.

Yan and Smith have had the biggest impact on my cooking of any TV chefs.

I probably watch more Lidia right now than anyone. She was one of the sources for Jeff's Italian cookbook so he knew where to go to get the best. Daisy Martinez was an assistant cook on Lidia's show for a while. Not that she ever got screentime. I liked her Daisy Cook's series and need to read her new book. Daisy does fill out her high intensity colored clothes, just to confirm some of KYH's observations.


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

I have a question for all of you.  Do we in the US really care if the TV chef is presenting "authentic" ethnic food?  I don't.  All I care about is that it is good to eat!

Batali, Bastionich, and Bayless (3B's!) come to mind in this category.  I mean some of those ingredients are things the US cook is likely to summarily reject.  Like those dried fishes that Batali always seems to include.  I want chefs to cook with things I'm likely to find in my market here in the US.  OTOH, if it is truly delicious, I want to know about it.  But authentic for authenticity's sake?  I don't think I'm interested.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

if my memory serves me correctly wasn't jeff smith charged with sexual assault on young boys?...like his cooking protege's.....never was a fan of his, but after that came out, i was so thoroughly disgusted...can only hope he's been rehabilitated, if you believe thats even possible, or is in jail using his whisk for something more useful than whipping young boys....

joey


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The case against Jeff is interesting.  Some assistant chefs, teenagers, made the initial sexual harrasment complaint. Finally 7 plaintiffs brought forth a civil case. Not a criminal case which raises certain doubts in my mind about their case. They settled out of court.  Some info I ran across on line once indicated that the settlement was for 2.1 million dollars.  Divided 7 ways and with attorney's fees, they settled for very little money compared to the travails of sexual abuse. And again, no criminal charges, no abuse charges, just civil harassment.  I have no verification for that sum of money of course so it's just hearsay.

Jeff Smith died in 2004.

He may have a been a sexual scumbag, but his food contributions are not related to that issue.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

IndyGal said:


> I have a question for all of you. Do we in the US really care if the TV chef is presenting "authentic" ethnic food?


We've had a number of questions about authenticity and the consensus is that it's largely an illusion. Authentic to which grandma in which region and so on.

However, there are aspects of authenticity that have merit, generally as it impacts taste. Does extra virgin olive oil taste different that plain olive oil? Than canola oil? Then use what has the right taste for the dish.

It is in this regard that I dinged Martin Yan. He had simplified so much of the recipes (mostly in the early stages of his career) that they lack enough of the right flavors. However, he made some reasonable choices in that regard as availability of the "authentic" ingredients wasn't good for a nationwide audience. Similarly I have a Kenneth Lo cookbook from 1970 or 1971. it's very different Chinese cooking from anything today as he's adapting strenuously to limited availability. He picked dishes very carefully for their portability to the limited options.

And Grace Young in her latest cookbook (Stirfrying to the Sky's Edge) focuses on how the Chinese expats have integrated the local ingredients into their daily cooking to substitute for what they can't get. Is it authentic Chinese food anymore? No and she doesn't contest that it is, but that it is good.

Can you tell I like Chinese cooking?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Very good question here:


IndyGal said:


> I have a question for all of you. Do we in the US really care if the TV chef is presenting "authentic" ethnic food? I don't. All I care about is that it is good to eat!
> 
> Batali, Bastianich, and Bayless (3B's!) come to mind in this category. I mean some of those ingredients are things the US cook is likely to summarily reject. Like those dried fishes that Batali always seems to include. I want chefs to cook with things I'm likely to find in my market here in the US. OTOH, if it is truly delicious, I want to know about it. But authentic for authenticity's sake? I don't think I'm interested.


I think this points to an important divide in the whole "celebrity chef" thing. I think celebrity chefs come in three varieties: authenticity mavens, teachers, and "talents."

With the word "talent" I'm referring to a phenomenon you see in many part of the world, in which the people who appear on TV constantly are there because they're there because they're talented --- which we know because they're there, and so on in a circle. In Japan, people like this are called "talents": they are people who are known for being that person you see on TV, period. They're all attractive in some way, but that's all you can say with any confidence. I think a lot of the celebrity chefs people here -- i.e. people who actually take cooking seriously -- can't stand are "talents."

Then you've got authenticity mavens: Batali and Bayless are great examples. Bastianich to some degree, though she does take New York Italian-American red-sauce cooking as an authentic style of its own, for which I give her a lot of credit.

Then you've got teachers, of whom Julia Child and Jacques Pepin are the greatest exemplars.

Now focusing on the question asked, you might notice that there is a lot of effort by what we might call the "food media" to locate all chefs in terms of authenticity. Some, like Batali and Bayless, eat this up and make use of it. I intend no criticism here: they're very good at what they do, and they are running businesses that do well when they succeed.

Gordon Ramsay, if you see the original British version of _Kitchen Nightmares_, constantly insisted that people stress authenticity, but in that case it largely seems to be an ethic of simplicity and directness: don't try to do 18 different cuisines in a mishmash, stick to your roots and cook straight. But Ramsay isn't actually averse to fusion, he's just saying that people who are basically totally incompetent and losing their shirts trying to run failing restaurants should stop trying to be cute.

But what about the teachers? If you pay attention and read a lot (and watch interviews and such), you may note that there is a lot of effort to locate Julia Child and Jacques Pepin in terms of "authentic French cuisine." I've seen remarks that it took years for Child throw off the "straight-jacket" of French cuisine. But she didn't and didn't want to: in her own view, she cooked basically French-style, adapted for what she liked and could get in America. Sure, she wasn't interested in those distinctively French fights about what is "authentic" bouillabaisse or cassoulet, but that's not "French cuisine" -- it's local fighting, town against town. Pepin has spent years mentioning to anyone who will listen that he isn't certain that he cooks French any more, but that in fact also he isn't quite sure what that's supposed to mean anyway, because _la nouvelle cuisine_ so drastically altered all norms. And yet the "food media" insists that it's all about the authentic.

To my mind, this conception that authenticity is a mark of quality is extremely destructive of modern cuisine, in America especially. Notice how strongly racial this is, for example. Watch Chopped, Top Chef, and so forth, and notice who gets criticized for not being authentic --- sometimes marked as not "cooking with your roots." Who is it? Not white people with names like Smith. But god help you if your name is Chan and you don't draw on some kind of Asian flavors. Watch how Morimoto Masaharu is treated on Iron Chef: he's presented as the Authentic Master of All Things Japanese, the Wise Sage and so on. Morimoto? The guy was known in Japan, when he was on the Japanese Iron Chef show, for being _weir__d_, for _not_ being Japanese, for being a fusion guy. He's Nobu Matsuhisa's protege, after all. He's the guy who served hot dogs on Iron Chef, when the theme was foods celebrating the Boys' Festival --- his argument being, "have you ever known a little boy who doesn't like hot dogs?" The judges thought that was pretty hysterical: here's "Iron Chef Japanese" serving hot dogs in honor of a Japanese folk festival! But Morimoto in the US is treated like Mr. Japanese.

Look at how "ethnic" foods drift in this country. These days, everyone has Chinese takeout available, more or less. So authenticity mavens started insisting that (a) that isn't _real_ Chinese food, and (b) Thai food is better. Then Pad Thai showed up at the deli counter, and suddenly Thai food was less cool and interesting. Mexican food is basically divided into "authentic" and "what's served at any restaurant non-foodie white people might have heard of." But what on earth would "authentic" Mexican or Chinese food be? These are not monolithic places with narrow food styles or practices. The point of the label isn't whether the food is good or not, it's whether non-foodie white people know about it and whether the people cooking it are dark-skinned and staying in their appropriate place serving upscale white people.

So yes, in answer to IndyGal's question, apparently a lot of people in the US do care quite a lot whether something is or isn't authentic. On the whole, they care about this because they've been told to care about it. And they mostly use it as a way to (a) show their own special inside knowledge, (b) sneer at the proles who don't eat "ethnic" foods of certain varieties, and (c) assuage their own sense of white guilt by being able to tell themselves that they're at one with minorities because they eat the food.

As far as I'm concerned, the only value in the notion of authenticity with respect to quality arises when you have no idea what to do with something. Someone hands you a gobo root, a good thing to start with is to find out what people who grow and eat the stuff regularly have traditionally done with it. Try that, their way --- authentically. Once you know its properties, incorporate it into what you like to cook, however that works for you. Authenticity for authenticity's sake? IndyGal doesn't think she's interested --- whereas for me, I think it's despicable.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I would take it a step further and say that some of the most talented chefs in the country (and even in the world) are relatively unknown to all but the most hardcore of foodies. _

No disagreement there, Tyler. We can all make lists, I wager, of great chefs that few others would recognize.

But Jose Andres? That's incredible. The man is the single most important influence on the small plates and tapas movement in America. Interestingly, he has had his own shows, such as Made In Spain.

_i am a bit surprised with your like of giada_....

Joey, you're misreading me. I have little use for her. Was just pointing out that, unlike the others you named, she is both trained, and has worked as, a chef.

_you may be happy to know that i don't spill out either_

Which merely explains why you don't have your own TV show. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

_guess i was just stating my amazement that they don't seem to dominate the airwaves like their male counterparts... _

Perhaps its just a reflection of the industry at large? Although we like to pretend otherwise, the fact is it's still a male dominated industry.

Ever watch Chopped? The judging (indeed, the very selection of contestents) is so biased against women you have to wonder why they bother having any compete---except, perhaps, as a way of setting them up to lose.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Oh My God! Chris. Do you really see the authenticity issue in terms of race? That's pretty scary.

Hmmmm, let's see. By your own words, those right at the center of the authenticity controversy (if controversy it is) include Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, Lidia Bastianich, Mario Batali, and Rick Bayless---brown skinned people every one, right?

_Watch Chopped........notice who gets criticized for not being authentic _

Hmmmmmm? Does anyone with the brains God gave a turnip take anything said by the Chopped judges seriously? Soon as they act consistently for two dishes in a row I'll start considering their comments meaningful. I mean really! Scott Conant as Worlds Greatest Authority! Gimme a break.


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

Authenticity is way overrated. At what point in history do we go back and say "That's when authentic food started"? If that's the case, then unseasoned meat on a stick over a fire is the most authentic food.

The only time the "authentic" moniker is acceptable, in my mind, is when talking about a very specific dish. For example, bananas sauteed in butter, brown sugar, and rum, served over vanilla ice cream is "authentic" bananas foster. Making the same dish with other various flavors means that, while made in the bananas foster style, it would be improper to call that variation "authentic". However, it would be foolish to say that the variation is not "authentic" New Orleans food, as there are hundreds of variations found in the city.

See the distinction?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hang on, you're misreading me.


KYHeirloomer said:


> Oh My God! Chris. Do you really see the authenticity issue in terms of race? That's pretty scary.
> 
> Hmmmm, let's see. By your own words, those right at the center of the authenticity controversy (if controversy it is) include Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, Lidia Bastianich, Mario Batali, and Rick Bayless---brown skinned people every one, right?
> 
> ...


What the Chopped judges say is indicative of a lot of what I'm calling the "food media." They're mediocre at best --- and so are the vast majority of people doing this stuff. Some very, very good chefs capitalize on this authenticity business, some disdain it, some ignore it, whatever. That's a separate issue.

It's not precisely "race" in the usual American sense, i.e. melanin pigmentation and eye shape. But if your name is Antinetti you are going to get a lot of pressure to cook "authentic" Italian food because that's your "heritage" and so on. If your name is Smith, you can do more or less what you like and claim to be "celebrating" things.

Do you remember Top Chef #3, the one won by a guy named Hung or Huen or the like? The guy was a well-trained paid-up French chef, basically. Classical training and skills, very solid. When they did the competition at the French Culinary Institute, where they were handed a chicken and an onion and told to go be French, he just massacred everyone, because he knew what he was doing. Okay, now cast your mind back. Remember what the judges kept saying? Again and again, they told him that his problem was that he wasn't cooking from the heart, from his soul. He wasn't showing who he was, what he was all about, deep down. And it was totally obvious (and in fact explicit much of the time) what this meant: "Your family is from Southeast Asia, your mother cooks Vietnamese [or was it Thai? I forget] food, and you are cooking classic French. This is a lie: you must draw on Southeast Asia to be authentic." Now ask yourself whether the judges do that -- on any of those shows -- if the contestant is a white guy named Smith. In that same season, or perhaps the next, there was an Australian. He eventually got cut when they did this thing of cooking for kids, and he made curry, which the kids loved. They cut him, in significant measure because Tom Whatsisface and Padma Thing said, "but this is nothing like curry from South or Southeast Asia, what the heck is this?" And the guy basically said, "um, no, it's curry like everyone in Australia grew up on." "No," they said, "curry is from South and Southeast Asia, and if you cook it you must cook it _authentically_, and the fact that you don't know that tells us you are a bad chef." I was cracking up, because this guy obviously had no idea what they were talking about: from his point of view, he was doing exactly what they always tell everyone else of not-exactly-American descent to do, i.e. cooking from the heart, from his roots, from who he is. But his version of not-exactly-American doesn't count on that score because he's a WASP -- albeit one from the opposite side of the earth.

With normal foodie discourse, rather than TV shows, you get the same thing inflected differently. Much of it is snobbery: I know all about sushi, I know the names of all the fish in Japanese, I know the right way to dip this and that, I'm so clever and superior. Look up the phrase "sushi bullies" and think how these chefs get away with behavior like this -- behavior, by the way, that would have them out of business in Tokyo. But when "authentic" meets "ethnic," it normally also means cheap eats. Note the constant approval of the wonderfulness of street food, for example -- and the total unwillingness of those same foodie snobs to eat scrapple from a pushcart in NYC. But the "right" way to make, let's say, tacos is to be "authentic" about it: if the foodie snob disdains a local tacqueria as not "authentic" and therefore not good, chances are this is because the tacos do not match what the foodie takes to be the "normal" street foods of Mexico. Which means, conversely, that a _good_ taco place is one that does not _change_.

Try this: Skim the web and look at food reviews of sushi restaurants -- not just published stuff, but blogs and whatnot. Skim widely. Look for the word "authentic." Correlate accolades and flames on this score with the chef's name. What do you think you will find? Right: an authentic sushi place is one with a Japanese chef, of course. Try it with tacquerias and the like too. Now think how Bayless does it: apart from being a terrific chef, he constantly stresses _authenticity_ and the fact that he keeps going back to Mexico to get more authentic recipes and bring them back. What he's doing -- and very well, too -- is _overcoming_ the problem of doing authentic Mexican without actually being Mexican, and at the same time he's re-packaging "authentic Mexican" so that it's expensive and upscale -- which last he would have one heck of a hard time doing if he were named Rodrigues and had a Latino accent.

You honestly don't see this, KYH?


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## kemchua (Dec 17, 2010)

Yep, Alton Brown gets my vote, too. The more a cook explains, the more I like. And boy does he try to explain. I like his corny jokes, too, and the funny chicken inhis kitchen. I don't agree with everything he does. But I do like how he has food scientists on his show.

I learned how to cook from television (Madeleine Kamman, Jacques Pepin and Julia Child all on PBS). In the 7th grade, I used to cut school just to watch cooking shows. This continued in college, too, when the TVFN made it's debut.

__________________

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search engine optimisation consultancy


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _I would take it a step further and say that some of the most talented chefs in the country (and even in the world) are relatively unknown to all but the most hardcore of foodies. _
> 
> No disagreement there, Tyler. We can all make lists, I wager, of great chefs that few others would recognize.
> 
> ...


lo siento ky...

you'd think i'd know by now to 'look before i leap'.... to reread the post before answering....have you read the tribute to michael batterberry in the new issue of food arts? real nice.....

joey


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

My new Food Arts arrived yesterday, Joey, and is still in the polywrap.

No matter how highly they praise him in it, though, it isn't high enough. The man will be sorely missed.


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Thank you Chris.  I had no idea when I posted this I'd get such a well thought out response.  Lots of - ahem - food for thought there.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Chris, I don't get Bravo, and rarely get to see Top Chef. So have no opinion as to how or why they make comments.

On other competition shows I do see such comments. But when they refer to "roots" they are usually talking about how the contestent cooks at his/her home restaurant. A Latino cook, whose restaurant serves that kind of food, steps out of that box, and is less than successful. It's not an assumption that because the cook is Latino that that's his/her roots. It's that that particular cook normally cooks that way.

So, no, I really don't see it the way you suggest.

And, again, nothing said by any Chopped judge carries much weight with me. They're there to show off themselves, rather than to render any sort of fair assessment. If there's any attention to ethnicity and authenticity it's how it reflects the judges biases, not how they see the contestents'.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Chopped as far as I am concerned is all about creativity and imagination. Some of the combinations don' even sound good much less taste. As far as the 

judges, I wont even go that route. I have done many test like this but at least the people who put the mystery boxes together, put items in it that would work together.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

I suppose I'm on the other side of the spectrum, in regards to authenticity. I have no problem, and often seek out recipes that I look at as authentic. I think authenticity is often undeservingly berated in food forums, for many reasons. I can appreciate that no one recipe can be labeled as the only authentic recipe of a region. In fact, I believe that authentic cooking can be viewed as a living method that has changed throughout the many years as the people, terrain and harvest have changed in that dish...in that region.

When I seek out an authentic recipe I'm not looking for some magical single recipe that stands above all others. I'm looking for something cooked in the traditional method to a part of the world within a specific time in history. A pilaf is a great dish, but there are many things it is not. I love all food and can accept any and all variations. But (to me) there is a traditional method how certain dishes are cooked. Gumbo is made a certain way, paella is made a certain way, tamales are made a certain way.

I believe that a bowl of gumbo is a lot like snowflakes, no two bowls of gumbo are alike. But I do believe that you can request a recipe for an authentic bowl of gumbo without the idea being looked at as an impossible task due to the changing civilizations going back to the beginning of time. Is there an authentic Bolognese sauce recipe? While I don't know if you can say that there is only one correct recipe, but you can make it in a traditional method...or you could brown some ground beef and mix it in a sauce.

Authentic? Perhaps I'm off my rocker...but I'll continue to use the word in my posts /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif

dan


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I don't think Chris is talking about whether or not a particular dish is or is not authentic, Dan. What he's discussing is his perception about the biased expectations of the people who host/judge cooking competitions. And, of course, the snobbery of foodies.

What he's saying, if I'm reading it right, is that the judges hold ethnic competitors to different standards, on the assumption that they cook based on their ethnicity. That a Latino is expected to cook latino food; a Vietnamese to cook the food of Viet Nam, etc. But that they don't have such expectations about mainstream competitors: An Italian can cook, say, French food, with no comment, or a German can cook North African, etc. His contention is that if they were consistent, and unbiased, the standards would be the same. A German would be expected to excell, automatically, in cooking German food. And so forth.

So, it isn't so much about authenticity as it is about bias and race.

Certainly there is some of that. Just because you become a judge on a cooking show doesn't mean you leave your prejudices at the door. From what I've seen of those competitions, however, I think he overstates the case at best.

And as to food snobs, I don't pay much attention to them at all. By definition they don't hold opinions of their own; they only reflect what is fashionable and "in" at any particular time. His discussion of "authentic" sushi is a perfect example. How many of the snobs he points a finger at would have, say ten or 15 years ago, turned up their noses at the very idea of raw fish? Now they're sushi experts (without even realizing that sushi isn't about fish at all). Next week, when a new fad comes down the pike, they'll become authorities on it.

All that aside, the problem with "authentic" is that I don't know what that means. As you say, it should reflect a particular style, an orientation to how ingredients are combined, an overall orientation to food handling. But, unless you draw the lines very tightly, you wind up with a meaningless phrase. What, for instance, is authentic Spanish food? The way it's done in Madrid? Or the way it's done in the Basque country? Which of the seven or eight or ten distinct approaches is "authentic" Italian? At what point does authentic Mexican become Tex-Mex, on one hand, or Mayan on the other?

Are "traditional" and "authentic" actually synonyms? If so, then Ferran Adria's dishes are not authentically Spanish. And the claims that Italo/American cooking is not authentic Italian would have credence---something that would upset my old Sicilian neighbors no end.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I've tried a few times to reply to this and every time, life seems to happen and cause me to have to go do something else. So, before the wife or kids come in, let me apologize for any insinuation felt by my post.

While French may be "the language of love", my ears sense sarcasm in the accent very quickly. For the record, German always sounds "mean" to me just because of the sound and accent. So, when I saw this guy as a food snob, the comments he made seemed to reinforce my sense of sarcasm and because of his accent, it was very easy to leave him in the "food snob" category. That is why it "didn't help that he was French". His accent registered negatively. Oddly, it's only the male French accent that seems so condescending. A female French accent is quite attractive. Of course, with my luck, I'll get told that I'm sexist against my own gender and get another infraction .



Ishbel said:


> Just for the record, I did not issue an infraction.
> 
> Whilst you may not have known who the man was (and I don't know him at all) you made a slur against French people - or that was how I and others seem to have read it.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYHeirloomer said:


> I don't think Chris is talking about whether or not a particular dish is or is not authentic, Dan. What he's discussing is his perception about the biased expectations of the people who host/judge cooking competitions. And, of course, the snobbery of foodies.
> 
> Are "traditional" and "authentic" actually synonyms? If so, then Ferran Adria's dishes are not authentically Spanish. And the claims that Italo/American cooking is not authentic Italian would have credence---something that would upset my old Sicilian neighbors no end.


 KYH,

I got a little off track reading a few other comments throughout this thread. In regards to the prejudices some judges may have, I don't much care. I can't change their view and can only accept or reject how they judge by choosing to watch their show, or not.

Are "traditional" and "authentic" actually synonyms? I don't know if I would stretch it that far. But to my thinking, authentic cuisine is better described by a method of cooking that is constrained to a region and time in history rather than picking/choosing/approving a particular recipe. In a broad scope you can look at a country or in a smaller, more particular view, you need to look at a region of that country...but I still think in terms of method and ingredients to the region/time rather than recipe.

You and others would be better qualified to interpret a chefs abilities than I am. But I don't see Ferran Adria as being defined as an authentic Spanish chef. There are many great living chefs in our time but I view few of them as pioneers (pushing the forefront, not necessarily the only first). I view Ferran as being a pioneer in tomorrows world cuisine, blending classical training with new techniques. But it is more than merely play and always true to the original flavor, regardless of change in texture or divergence from the usual temperature. To me (yes...who am I) I believe Ferran Adria has moved beyond being called an authentic Spanish chef.

 Synthesis of elBulli cuisine...

,

dan


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

"Authentic" is certainly an interesting word.  While I really enjoy "Mexican food", I have no desire to eat "authentic" Mexican food.  To me, beef means steak.  In "authentic" Mexican food, they use far more parts of the cow than I have any desire to eat.  I don't eat tongues, 'nads, or guts (offal).  I like my "meat" cleaned the way I clean fish... discard the head and gut it.  I appreciate that there are people who eat the parts I consider to be "trash", but that doesn't mean I intend to join them.

Likewise, "authentic" Italian food in the US seems to be what the big chains put out.  Therefore, as an American, my view on what Italian food is, really isn't what Italian food is.  We love our bolognese sauce, but best I can tell, a bolognese sauce is actually a meat ragout (or is it ragu'?) with some tomato, but not nearly the amount we've Americanized it into.  I also have a feeling that our rendition of lasagna would be thumbed down really quickly as a horrible mockery of a classic dish. 

While I find Lidia's Italy to be an enjoyable show and learn a lot from it, it's not knowledge that will serve me in an American restaurant.  I think the biggest misconception is that Italian food is from Italy.  You have to find a person who appreciates pizza to realize that there are regional pizzas.  I'm not saying it's hard to find such a person, just that such a person doesn't talk about how wonderful Domino's is .  America has regional differences on many foods.  For some reason, we lump "Italian" food into one big box.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi gobblygook,

   It looks like our interpretations of the word and of the food is unique to each of us. Not right or wrong...just different interpretations.

   dan


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not sure where Dan stands on this, quite, but I much prefer "traditional" to "authentic."

Basically to me "traditional" means that there is a tradition to which the cook, dish, restaurant, or whatever adheres. If you want to say that you're serving "traditional" Mexican food, I don't have a problem with that -- but I would be somewhat nonplused if I asked you _where_ in Mexico, or _which_ tradition, and you had no idea what I meant. For example, I know that if you ask Rick Bayless this sort of question, you'd better be prepared for a very, very long answer, because he'd be delighted to tell you all about it. He's into this. Batali is too, for example, and so are many others.

To my ear, however, "traditional" differs from "authentic" in that it doesn't imply _rightness_ or _correctness_. That's the part that drives me nuts about "authentic."

I suppose in what I wrote above, I kind of overstated the issue of racial bias, although I do think it's very real -- and not in any sense limited to food TV judges. I think it's become a constant issue in American food talk, and I think that's very unfortunate for a lot of reasons, not all of them having much to do with racial concerns.

One neat example for me is _kaiseki_, the ultra-refined cuisine of Kyoto. There is certainly a _tradition_ of kaiseki, and a very complicated and debated one, with all kinds of varying strains. By one measure, it's some 4 centuries old; by another, it's less than 100 years old. Regardless, it's a complex tradition, and a vibrant, dynamic one as well. But by any reasonable measure there is no such thing as "authentic" kaiseki -- or alternatively, "authentic" kaiseki is so defined by the fact that it is served in Kyoto or its immediate surroundings and makes plausible claims to the tradition in question. "Authentic" kaiseki cannot exist outside Kyoto: that's meaningless. But you could certainly have a restaurant in Osaka, Tokyo, LA, New York, or Barcelona that goes to some lengths to serve _traditional_ kaiseki, and then the question would be whether that was a good idea or well executed.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

ChrisLehrer said:


> I'm not sure where Dan stands on this, quite, but I much prefer "traditional" to "authentic."


 I know that I've requested "authentic" recipes before. After some reflection, I wonder if asking for "traditional methods" would have been better. I still don't have a problem with asking for an "authentic" recipe and I can deal with the fact that things can't be dated back to the beginning of time. I'll be tempted to go into a half integer spin if we have to go any further>>> -*- /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif

If using authentic to describe a dish or recipe, I would hope it can be followed up with the place of origin (no, Europe or Italy won't do). But if someone states that the dish is made with traditional methods I expect good, proper cooking.

dan


> [h2]Definition of _AUTHENTIC _[/h2]
> _(m-w.com)_
> 
> 1
> ...


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Interesting interpretation, Gobblygook.

I'm thinking the problem is you are trying to relate "authentic" and "traditional" to chain restaurant food. And that's always problematic. I don't think any chain restaurant can be either. At most, they have menus in the style of. I mean think about it: Fazoli's as either authentic or traditional? Ain't gonna work.

Your example of Lidia is exactly to the point. Lidia is showing us, region by region, the actually foods as they are prepared in the traditional manner. She's not interested in teaching us an amorphous conglomeration called "Italian," but, rather, the authentic regional cuisines. So she shows us how it's actually done in Sicily, or Tuscany, or Valdosta, etc. And if, along the way, we also learn some of the geographic, geopolitical, and population dynamics that led to the regional differences, what's wrong with that?

In a similar manner, there are reastaurants all over America that specialize in regional foods. It might say "Italian" in the phone book, but, when you get inside, it's Tuscan, or Sicilian, or Valdostan. Very authentic. And just as traditional as if you were dining in that region.

Ironically, "Italian" is the most portrayed ethnic food among TV cooks. Indeed, for the longest time, if you used FN programing as the guideline, Italian was the _only _ethnic food anybody cooked. And the same continuum---from authentic/traditional to Americanized---exists, with Lidia defining one end and Giada the other.

The question is, as we try to focus on this nebulous thing called authentic, is this: Is Giada any less authentic than Lidia? And if so, why?


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYHeirloomer said:


> The question is, as we try to focus on this nebulous thing called authentic, is this: Is Giada any less authentic than Lidia? And if so, why?


 I'm beginning to think I have less of a problem with the word "authentic" than I do the word it would be modifying. While I find "authentic" regional cuisine acceptable, I can see the problems declaring a recipe "authentic".

I suppose there is good reason to bring this discussion on the word back to the chefs, since that is the topic of this thread. I'm thinking that one is serving her own interpretation, while the other intends to be true to the cuisine.

dan


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I'm thinking that one is serving her own interpretation, while the other intends to be true to the cuisine._

I'm not sure there's a difference. All cooking is a matter of interpreting a known recipe, whether written down or not. If we went to Bolgna, for instance, and asked ten housewives and two chefs to prepare a meat sauce we'd likely get 12 dishes that were similar, as to overall use of ingredients. But they'd all be somewhat different, as to actual ingredients, quantitites of them, and even techniques used to produce the sauce. Yet they'd all be authentic bolagnese sauces.

So now, along comes Giada, who does the same thing. Let's say that in addition to dipping her mammaries in the pot she adds, oh, say, a smidgeon of tarragon. Is that merely serving her own interpretation? Or is it a 13th authentic version? Wouldn't it take a radical change in direction---say, adding crushed gingersnaps---to make in non-authentic?

Seems to me that the only authentic foods are specific recipes modified by the source. "This is the authentic Bolognese as made in the Trattoria D'Angalo," or, "This is Grandma's authentic roast chicken with chestnut stuffing."

One of the problems with "authentic" is that it leads to dogmatism. As soon as self-styled experts such as Scott Conant proclaim, "Italians never...." or "Italians always...." you know he's showing his arse. There is no always nor never, particularly when talking about a diverse, regionally based, cuisine. Italy, per se, has only existed for what? A century and a half or so. Are we truly supposed to believe that in so short a time they've achieved a uniform, homogeneous cuisine, as codified as classic French, with no exceptions.

Nor can the time line be ignored. Is Venetian cuisine Italian (whatever that means)? Or is it Turkish? Or Slavic? Or, if we can believe the legends and popular history books, Chinese? What about Valdostan cuisine? Is it Italian? Or German? Or Swiss?

I've used this example before, but it bears repeating. Until the 16th century, Gaspacho was a white soup, made with almonds. Then tomatoes were introduced to the Old World, and a new soup emerged, using the same technique, but subbing tomatoes for the nuts. Granted, 500 years is a fair piece of time. But, still, which is the authentic---or even traditional---gazpacho? Now comes somebody like Victor Scargle, who starts with tomato gazpacho and adds a whole garden of other veggies to it, and garnishes it with fruit. Is his version less authentic? Less traditional?

We talked, earlier, about Eric Ripart. What happens when Chef Ripart takes a largemouth bass and, using what are clearly French culinary methods and techniques, produces a great dish? Clearly, you won't find a dish featuring largemouth bass in France. That fish doesn't exist over there. But chances are a Frenchman would recognize the dish as being French. Is it authentically French? Traditionally French? Bastardized French?

Of a sudden those words become even more slippery.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYHeirloomer said:


> I've used this example before, but it bears repeating. Until the 16th century, Gaspacho was a white soup, made with almonds. Then tomatoes were introduced to the Old World, and a new soup emerged, using the same technique, but subbing tomatoes for the nuts. Granted, 500 years is a fair piece of time. But, still, which is the authentic---or even traditional---gazpacho? Now comes somebody like Victor Scargle, who starts with tomato gazpacho and adds a whole garden of other veggies to it, and garnishes it with fruit. Is his version less authentic? Less traditional?
> 
> Of a sudden those words become even more slippery.


 I don't know KYH. It seems as though you continually want to blend historic timelines, while I believe it should be a descriptor just as region is. I embrace the difference in regional cuisine that's developed throughout the ages. The people have developed, migrated...the land has changed, been farmed, irrigated, trade evolved ever larger over time. I wish I had your words to borrow at times.

Again, I embrace the timeline as a factor in regional cuisine. I do this because it actually accounts for many variables that, if we accept it, takes into account influence in the food of that time...in that region. It accepts variables such as human development...migration of people, animals...new plants...advancements in tools, harvesting, planting, irrigation...trade, the expansion of trade...wars and Empires...climate change, volcanic activity, drought...on and on.

Do you not easily accept both versions of gaspacho as authentic, even with their vast differences?

dan


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

You misunderstand. I'm not looking to blend time lines. I'm saying we must be aware of them, because both individual dishes and entire cuisines change over time. And that impinges on the whole concept of authenticity.

Yes, I accept all versions as being gaspacho. But I don't assign the label "authentic" to any of them. As I said, earlier, I don't know what authentic means.

I think we're actually agreeing, just in a slightly different way. My point is that cusine, any cusine, is an evolving thing. What was "right" yesterday may or may not be right today. Ingredients change, over time. Outside influences impinge. New foodstuffs appear or reappear. Cooks develop new ways of combining ingredients, or come up with new techniques.

Something not discussed so far, but certainly germane, is the difference between at-home and restaurant foods. And the difference between casual restaurants and fine dining. Heinz Beck is recognized as an Italian chef. But certainly his 3-star dishes do not resemble the food served in a trattoria just a mile away. And neither of them resemble the food being cooked by Luigi's grandmother out in the Roman burbs. Yet, are not all three authentic Roman cusine? And if not, why not?

At one time I had close to two dozen recipes in my file for Sally Lunn bread; ranging from what proported to be the original Bath bun version (and boy, oh boy, is the jury out on that one) to a loaf varient developed just after WWII. I then developed a version using muffin tins. Would you be willing to say which of them was "authentic" Sally Lunn? The difference between us is this. If I could document the Bath bun version as being correct, I might identify it as the original Sally Lunn. But that's not the same as authentic. My contention is that my Sally Lunn muffins are just as authentic as the original Bath buns. So too is every version developed between them.

With the possible exception of classic French cooking (and that only because it was codified and cast in concrete), all cusines are fusions. All are in a constant state of flux. All have numerous and dramatic exceptions to their own rules.

It has lumps in it.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Yes, Giada is less authentic than Lidia. Lidia doesn't shove her boobs front and center and wear low-cut blouses.



KYHeirloomer said:


> Ironically, "Italian" is the most portrayed ethnic food among TV cooks. Indeed, for the longest time, if you used FN programing as the guideline, Italian was the _only _ethnic food anybody cooked. And the same continuum---from authentic/traditional to Americanized---exists, with Lidia defining one end and Giada the other.
> 
> The question is, as we try to focus on this nebulous thing called authentic, is this: Is Giada any less authentic than Lidia? And if so, why?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Dripping one's boobs in the pasta sauce may not contribute to the flavor, Gobblygook. But it's hardly germane to the question. Let's not confuse her style and appearance (of which, btw, I fully agree with you) with the food she produces.

Tell me, if you can, what makes Giada's _cooking_ less authentic than Lidia's. And while we're at it, let's toss Michael Chiarello into the mix as well. Is his Cal-Italian approach less authentic that Lidias? More or less authentic than Giada's? Why?


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYHeirloomer said:


> Something not discussed so far, but certainly germane, is the difference between at-home and restaurant foods. And the difference between casual restaurants and fine dining. Heinz Beck is recognized as an Italian chef. But certainly his 3-star dishes do not resemble the food served in a trattoria just a mile away. And neither of them resemble the food being cooked by Luigi's grandmother out in the Roman burbs. Yet, are not all three authentic Roman cusine? And if not, why not?
> 
> ... I might identify it as the original Sally Lunn. But that's not the same as authentic. My contention is that my Sally Lunn muffins are just as authentic as the original Bath buns. So too is every version developed between them.


 Hi KYH,

(sorry for the delay)

While there is certainly a difference between all of these foods, why are they not all considered authentic to what they're trying to be true to? Neither of the recipes resemble one another, and none of them is pretending to.

I would ask...Does the recipe conform to an original as to reproduce certain features? Is it true to the recipes own personality, spirit and character of the dish?

I would say that, again, grandmas recipe doesn't have to be the same as the fine dining establishments. It needs to be representative of itself...not something else.

Even very strict "adopted" recipes of a region include some variations and also allow room for difference in cut, etc.

dan


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I guess my point is that there's "flash" and there's "quality". The more quality you offer, the less "flash" you need. As such, "flash" tends to detract from the need for quality, which leads me to the assumption that flash is used as a replacement for quality.

Lidia goes to the source and provides background. Giada doesn't. To me, that makes the "show" part of things much more appealing from Lidia. When it comes down to which one is on my DVR to record and which one isn't, Lidia wins. To me, that's all that matters. I learn something from Lidia; I don't really learn anything from Giada.



KYHeirloomer said:


> Dripping one's boobs in the pasta sauce may not contribute to the flavor, Gobblygook. But it's hardly germane to the question. Let's not confuse her style and appearance (of which, btw, I fully agree with you) with the food she produces.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

But again, Gobblygook, you're talking about the person and her appearance, rather than the food. The issue being discussed is whether or not particular food is authentic, whatever that means. You keep turning into a discussion about whether you like a particular show instead.

Everything you said about Lidia is true, and explains why I, too, prefer her show over Giada's. But it still begs the question. What about the dishes each one prepares? What is there about Giada's food that makes it less authenticly Italian? You're the one who claims it isn't authentic. You must have reasons, other then dislike of the cook, for feeling that way.

The challenge is this: Forget about personalities. Forget visual appearance of the star, and format of the shows. If I were to place before you one of Lidia's dishes and one of Giada's, with no indentification, do you believe you could say this one is Italian and this one is not? And if you do believe that, tell me why you think so. Again, just so we're clear: we are not talking about the shows, nor the people who host them. They're out of the picture entirely. We're talking about two dishes, purporting to be representative of a particular cuisine. You have to decide, are they or are they not. And have reasons for your decision.

As for flash, while I agree with your basic contention, keep in mind that we're talking about Food Network. Their first criteria, always, isn't what makes a good cooking show, or even what makes good food. It's what makes good television. The fact that they don't seem to really know the answer to that question is irrelevent. Good television, in their opinion, connotes with flash. Which is why Guy Fieri, for example, has three shows and a bunch of specials, obnoxious as he is. And why great cooks like Jaques Pepin would never be offered a show there. Let's face it, the only things Pepin brings to the table are knowledge about food and cooking, and the ability to teach. Hardly the stuff of glitz and drama. Take away Alton Brown's schtick, and what you're left with is a high-school science teaching droning away at the front of the room. Remove the artificial time constraints and unrealistic scenarios, and nobody would watch any of the competition shows. And so forth.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Dan, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing in your last post.

You seem to be saying that there can be no changes in a cuisine, no adaptations, no new influences, no evolution. Certainly you as much as state that an original recipe devised by a 3-star chef is not authentic. I know you don't believe that.

And you seem to be saying that there is an "original" recipe (would that be almond gazpacho? Sally Lunn Bath buns?), and that interpretations which stay true to that recipe are authentic and others are not. And again, I know you don't believe that.

Please go over your last post and see if you can clarify it for me.


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## calorgas (Dec 28, 2010)

Antony Worral Thompson is cool, I like the way he cooks and he is rustic wih his cooking and makes honest simple but wholesome food. He' the greatest


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Sorry, but I think AWT is a prat!


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

There you go again, Ishbel, with that foreign English. What, please, is a prat?


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Wow, suppose I speak that same foreign English then.....

It means something like he's full of himself. It definitely isn't a compliment!

The essence is that she doesn't like him very much


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## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

Ishbel said:


> Sorry, but I think AWT is a prat!


plank?



calorgas said:


> Antony Worral Thompson is cool, I like the way he cooks and he is rustic wih his cooking and makes honest simple but wholesome food. He' the greatest


thought you mighta picked Jamie Oliver?

Any US west coast heard of...

http://www.thecookingguy.com/


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## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

Alton Brown - jackass

Bobby Flay - thumbs up

Ina Garten - ick

Neely's - ick

Tyler Florence - thumbs up

Paula Dean - c'mon, really?

Mario Batali - thumbs up

Giada Di Lor...whatever - nah,

John Besh - (almost forgot) thumbs up

Fieri - nah (I do know he walked into a restaurant and the first thing he said, "You know who I am?" his stock just dropped)

....to be continued


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Authentic, non authentic?

Just a couple of examples as to how I see things...

The other day I had a curry Vindaloo. It had peppers and potato in it and was definitely not vinegar based. It tasted like some sweet & sour concoction. Not authentic and for me unacceptable

When Japanese restaurants just started opening in Holland, I went to one of them (this is late 1980's, I had just come back from Japan and had won some money in the casino).

Their sashime and sushi was made with local fish (thoroughly fresh as this restaurant was located just a couple of km from a local fishing village).

Authentic? Not if authentic means that it has the same as what I had in Japan. Yes, if it means the style stayed the same. It was still a typical Japanese dish.

Acceptable? Yes, Absolutely.

After all, the main thing while making sushi and sashime is to use the freshest possible fish and this can be done much better by using the local fish than by using frozen flown in fish.

Here the style of the dish stayed the same, the ingredient was still fish, but just a different type.

I think a lot boils down to the perception of people. A dish with a certain name (like the curry Vindaloo) has to be made in a certain way. In this case it should have been vinegar based and hot. Even though the original Vindaloo is pork based, I got nothing against a beef or chicken vindaloo as long as the style remains intact.

And although I find curry Vindaloo a typical Indian dish, it is actually a fusion dish, influenced by the Portuguese as the Indians normally don't use vinegar in their cooking.

I think, if you go back long enough, everything is a fusion dish.

Taking my own country (Holland) as example: all "traditional" dishes are potato based. Potatoes only got introduced in the 16th century, so maybe all our traditional dishes are actually Latin American - Dutch fusion dishes ???

Ah well, enough rambling. I don't have the answer.

As for celebrity chefs: I don't know most of the ones that are being talked about.

I like Anthony Bourdain......


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I think, if you go back long enough, everything is a fusion dish._

Precisely the point I've been making (while trying to avoid the word "fusion" cuz I don't like it's connotations), Butzy. Which is why I keep saying I don't know what "authentic" means. Only we don't have to go back all that far. Human migration is an on-going process, and its effects on local cuisine are manifold.

Your example of potatoes is right to the point. If there is such a thing as a clear-cut Dutch cuisine, then we should have, in 1500, been able to predict the ways the cooks of Holland would have incorporated potatoes. Did that happen? Or did potatoes and other New World ingredients bend the cuisine in a new direction?

I think the same principle applies to specific dishes. Take your vandaloo example. If we break it down, it consists of 1. a protein, 2. a vinegar-base, and 3. hot spices. So, even though it was originally pork, most people would accept a protein substitute as still being vandaloo. Then somebody omits the vinegar and adds peppers and potatoes. It's no longer vandaloo. So far we're in agreement.

The question is: at what point does a change in ingredients alter the dish so much that it's no longer recognizable? A good example: On another list there was a long discussion about vegetarian Bolognese. Say what? Bolognese is, by definition, a meat sauce. How can there possibly be a vegetarian version? Yet, those people believe that it could be done.

More to the point, Kiyomi Mikuni makes a paella sushi. He takes the ingredients and flavors of a Spanish classic and arranges them on a bed of seaweed-wrapped, saffron-infused sushi rice. Is that authentic anything? An example of what "fusion" should be (and most often is not)? Or merely a creative (not to mention tasty) play on various culinary styles?

Now, extending the question, at what point does the same thing happen to a national cuisine? If I put a dish in front of you that you immediately recognize as French, or Italian, or Morrocan---despite any ingredient changes I may have made---are those dishes "authentic?" Or merely "in the style of?" What I'm suggesting, in part, is that the larger the geographic region, the less likely we are to make such differentiations. Same applies to a small region that has numerous outside influences. See the foods of Malta as a perfect example.

In his wonderfull _Where Flavor Was Born, _Andreas Viestad makes the point that the countries surrounding the Indian Ocean, using essentially the same flavorings (and, quite often, ingredients), have each developed their own recognizable cuisines. So, on one hand, we have a region encompassing three continents and 18-20 countries that could be described as "Indian Ocean cuisine." Yet, when we get down to each country, there are vast differences that belie any such claim. And within each country there are regional and ethnic differences making the claims of "authentic" national cuisines all but meaningless.

Another aspect: Colonization. As you point out, vandaloo is as much Portugee as Indian (one could say that about most Goan dishes, I believe). But there's an old saying among cultural anthropologists: The Persian conquerers were conquered by the conquered people. That applies to culinary matters as well. Take your own tradition of a stamp pot. Is it Dutch? Indonesian? Some amalgum of the two? What about English curry? Or those great Vietnamese sandwiches on baguette? Or.....well, I'm sure you get the idea. At what point did those approaches become "traditional" let alone "authentic?"


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## theunknowncook (Dec 17, 2009)

I had the pleasure to meet *Graham* *Kerr* many years ago. I found him to be a charming gentleman. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I have found my new favorite.  I may add her to my list of future ex-wives.  I doubt she's interested, but why should that stop me?

Laura Calder.  I just found "French food at home" on Cooking Channel and I really enjoy it.  She won my heart when I saw the first episode and she said something to the effect of "people say you must never stir a caramel because it will form sugar crystals.  So what."  She speaks French, but her English has almost no accent at all.  The sad part is that the show only has 78 episodes and is no longer in production.  I REALLY like watching her.  I've only seen three episodes and never once have I feared a "wardrobe malfunction".  She also cooks interesting things (to me), seems very mainstream "comfort food" type stuff.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

<mistake post>


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

And her voice, Gobblygook. It's an absolute turn-on.

I don't know if comfort is exactly the word. But she cooks real food, that regular people are likely to make for themselves.

She was one of the reasons I watched the Cooking Channel when I was getting it.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

KYHeirloomer said:


> Dan, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing in your last post.
> 
> You seem to be saying that there can be no changes in a cuisine, no adaptations, no new influences, no evolution. Certainly you as much as state that an original recipe devised by a 3-star chef is not authentic. I know you don't believe that.
> 
> ...


 Hi KYH,

I believe that a food from a country of origin must be defined by not only region...but time period as well. I believe if you look at region and time period it takes into consideration such influences like migration of people, animals, the influence of new plants into the area, the advancement of trade, advancements in farming, on and on...also including factors which weren't influenced by humans like abnormal weather patterns, flood and soil erosion.

If someone were to ask for a recipe from the worlds past I believe it would help to specify region and time period. From there, I would think, another acceptable question would be type of cooking within that region and time period.

I hate to cloud things with an example...because most times you can find something to argue about any example. But...say I'm making a lasagna. How far back do you go to find a good lasagna recipe from the past? How many times, in the worlds history, was Greece or Egypt invaded, or had an influx of migrants? Are these people really from there? Does it matter? I believe no, but a time-line must be applied when you ask a question so there you can make some sense of the question.

But, I think when people commonly ask for a recipe, such as an "authentic" lasagna, they aren't asking about an early Roman or early Greek dish (unless specified). I also don't think they are referencing any other places that lay claim to lasagna. If someone were to request an "authentic" recipe, any recipe, that they are usually referring to a time period within the previous two to three generations to them. This is a complete assumption and over-generalization on my part. I don't love the word "authentic" but feel comfortable interpreting the intended purpose of the person using it. If I'm not sure what their intended question is I think one or two questions would offer the needed clarification.

I do, however, feel comfortable labeling a recipe with region and time-line. I also don't think it's unreasonable to further specify a recipe by type of preparation, such as fine dining, home-style. But I wouldn't see this as a needed designation, like region and time-line (even if time-line may go as assumed).

On the subject of celebrity chefs...

Even though I don't watch many of the Tv chefs nowadays...they still certainly played a part in my learning process along the way.

dan


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_If someone were to request an "authentic" recipe, any recipe, that they are usually referring to a time period within the previous two to three generations to them_

That's true, to a certain extent. Or, if not by generational spacing by either ethnic or regional preference.

But that brings us full circle. Let's use your example of lasagna. If the word "lasagna" comes up, most people think Italian. So the question is, what is authentic Italian lasagna? As we've seen, however, due to the nature of how nation states were established, "Italian" is all but meaningless in this context. At what point does "authentic" become meaningful. If I ask for an "authentic Calabrasan lasagna" I might have a closer focus. But, still, how many lasagna variations would we find if we did a survey in Calabria?

What I'm saying is that any dish, at best, merely represents an approach to cookery. When we say "lasagna," we can expect that we'll get a layered pasta dish, and that each version of it shares a comonality of approach, of how ingredients are handled, of techniques used. Cumulatively, those things add up to a recognizable cuisine that, in this case, we call Italian. So much so that if you served it to someone unfamiliar with lasagna, per se, they would say, "this is Italian." Thus, authenticity would have to apply to every version of lasgna that shared enough of those commonalities to be recognizably Italian.

Within that framework, the timeline is irrelevent. Victor Scargle's vegetable gazpacho with fruit garnish is the current end result of a traditional way of handling ingredients in a continuum stretching back to white gazpacho, and everyone would recognize it as Spanish. It is therefore just as "authentic" as the original.

If we accept that argument, then Giada's food is just as authentic as Lidia's, as it follows in the same tradition of handling ingredients in certain ways, of how new ingredients are incorporated, of how outside influences are absorbed. For sure and for certain all cusisines are fusions. But the key to recognition is how that fusing takes place.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

My favorite Celebrity Chefs and Why:

Julia Childs... 'Nuff Said.

Rachel Ray... Because I'm a chassis guy. 

Alton Brown... Because I like Science

Ina Garten... Because I can actually believe she has cooked something before getting on TV

Gordon Ramsay... Because I really do think he came up the hard way, and can still lead or man a real kitchen.

Sara Lee... Again, not because she is a cook, but because I believe she represents 90% of today's American housewives.

                         - In spite of her, I think she is a "gateway chef" - like a "gateway drug" to real cooking. Clueless people can follow her - that's serves an overall greater good.

Bobby Flay... Because he is willing to use his star power (on Throw Down) to bring little owner-operators a LOT of business, and that's cool.

Guy Feiry... For th same reason I like Flay - His Diner's/Drives show brings business to little guys.

It doesn't have to be about hard-core cooking and mad skills all the time. If they inspire people to START cooking, then they are better off than they were before.

Who would I really want to work with or learn from?

Probably Tyler Florence for casual dining Gordon Ramsay for fine dining *hells kitchen aside - meaning I wouldn't hold that comedy against him*


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Oh yeah - and Paula Deen - those English Peas were BRILLIANT!!!  Just slap them into one of her exploding cast iron pans and the dogs have dinner on the floor in ten minutes. Awesome!


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*TY TROOPER *_.............................. You found me another thread that I'm really going to enjoy. I'm gonna qualify a few ideas first so that y'all (Paula D. style) can best understand my thoughts. OK, so we're talking TV here. That for me, is entertainment, little else. I want to be entertained. If, just by chance, I see or learn something I can use, all the better. I don't really need anything authentic, just tasty. Call a dish anything you want, just make it tasty. I've been to a lot of places, and within a 3-mile circle had the same dish served six different ways, all of which were authentic. The absolute best Mexican food I've ever had was in Soviet Georgia, by native people calling it their cuisine. Who is gonna argue. Anyway, here we go.

Julia Child .......... Absolute classic, fun to watch. _"If you're afraid of butter, use cream." _

Rachel ............... Just fun to watch. I can't wait for her to drop all that stuff. _"Sammys", Yum-O", "De-Lish"._

Sandra Lee ......... She's hot. Duh.

Giada ................. OMG. She's gorgeous. YES, I watch her for that. I don't care what she cooks. I love the was she massacres Italian words in the middle of a sentence trying to sound authentic.

Paula D. ............. I love her voice. She could read me the daily newspaper and I'd be happy.

Cat Cora ............. If I was ever on _Iron Chef_ I would compete against her. If I'm gonna get beat on TV, at least she's pretty. And I love seeing her do that pan spin thing.

Anne Burrell ........ Again, gorgeous. I dig large chicks who you can expect to eat what they order and not claim to be on a diet all the time. She has an open invitation to be the next Mrs.Iceman. She knows her stuff and is fun to watch.

Alton Brown ......... I teach a number of cooking classes. I like his connectivity style. I've also learned quite a few dishes from his show.

Tyler Florence ...... Same story as Alton B.

Gordon Ramsay ... I have actually learned a bunch of dishes from his shows. He makes a very nice 1-person beef wellington that is very nice. Did I need to learn this from a TV show? NO, but it was a nice episode. Both _"The "F" Word"_ and _"Kitchen Nightmares"_ have shown me some nice dishes.

_(These are just "Food Network" examples. There are lots of others that I like. I'm just giving these examples first.)_

TV _"Celebrity Chefs"_ are what they are. Take them for that and you won't be disappointed. The biggest problem I ever have is the re-run.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

It's RAW! (Smash with fist) . . . LOL... That cracks me up.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. Second round .......... _(I read through the thread and found these.)_

Ming Tsai .......... Wonderful to watch. He uses ceramic knives too. He should be an _Iron chef_. I don't even know the latest guy. DUH @ Me I guess.

Jacques Pepin ... Fantastic. I don't see him on TV much. I'd marry his daughter in a second.

Michael Chiarello .. Really cool, but I just can't use much of what I've seen him make. Maybe I just haven't seen him enough.

Martin Yan ......... My goodness. He is fun to watch. His knife skills are really fun.

John Besh .......... Fantastic too. I've never seen him on a show of his own. He should be an _Iron Chef_. I worked for him after _Katrina_. Never have I ever worked for a better person.

Rick Bayless ...... He is cool and real. I didn't work for or with him, I was just stationed next to where he was. He won't let anyone make any mistakes. He corrects in such a way it's like he is your best buddy covering your butt.

_*<< tangent >>*_

_** *note to _*ChrisLehrer *_*..... Post #74 made really good points. TY.*_

I think Aaron Sanchez is a really good _"Chopped"_ judge.

_*<< OK back, but in a new direction altogether >> *_

I think I'm an expert chef, just ask me and I'll tell you. _(That was a joke. Don't get bent out of shape.)_ I'm saying this in regards to "authenticity" and such. I make three(3) particular dishes that true natives of where they come from really like very much. The first is the _"spring roll"_. I call it _"Asian"_ as opposed to any specific nationality, because to tell the truth, I don't know which it would be. I have however had Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese people all tell me that they were very good, and better than they've had anywhere else. The next is _paella_. I bought an old beat up paella pan for $4 at a flea market. I've combined at least 3 or 4 recipes I've seen and I include everything that I like in mine. I now have two(2) major Spanish wine distributors ask me to make it for them when they are in Chicago doing presentations. The last is cannoli, my favorite dessert as a kid. I make mine including styles and ingredients from all over Italy. I had an old man cuss me out at an Italian wedding saying _"Whatta da heck issa dis? Whatta you ... Sicilian?" _The bride's father dropped his wineglass in laughter. The tray of about 200 cannolis was gone in about 20 minutes. With all three(3) dishes I don't know authenticity from abracadabra. But the people native to where the dishes came from seemed to think they were good. I'm not arguing or anything. I'm asking. Who's to say? Like I said before, TV is for entertainment. Isn't cooking and eating for entertainment too?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I had an old man cuss me out at an Italian wedding saying "Whatta da heck issa dis? Whatta you ... Sicilian?" _

I reckon I'd have dropped my wine glass too. While hoping there were no Sicilians in the room. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

But it does highlight the problem with "authenicity," particularly with countries like Italy. The immigrant waves of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were, primarily, Sicilians and Neopolitans. So, until recently, most Americans connoted "Italian food" with those two. That's what we were used to, after all. And while the various ethno-Italians certainly differentiated between themselves, the rest of us didn't.

More recently, the food of Tuscany has all but replaced the others when it comes to "Italian," because that's what's fashionable. In each case, however, even people from Italy, if served any of those dishes, would recognize them as "Italian."

Now, while they can be similar, the foods of Sicily and the foods of Tuscany can be very different. Yet they retain enough in common as to be, generally, Italian in nature.

Same with the three dishes you describe. Despite any modifications you may have made, the overall impression, with each one, is that it belongs to that cuisine, and even natives recognize it as such. Seems to me, that makes them "authentic," even though you might not find that specific dish in their countries of origin.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Read most of Pepin's books and, as a 12 yr old, really appreciated the photos and step-by-step in "La technique'".  Stillhave them too.

Never watch TV, so I have no idea about the TV shows.

While working in S'pore I had an opportunity to watch Martin Yan cook live.  He was good, but very embarrased, as he only speaks Cantonese, and alas, S'pore is a Mandarin speaking island.


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## breadmaker man (Jan 25, 2011)

Most entertaining... Ramsay

One I most like to watch... Nigella or Sophie Dahl.

The food is secondary.


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## caribbeanpot (Jan 22, 2011)

Used to love watching the Two Fat Ladies - BBC. I now enjoy watching New Scandinavian Cooking (PBS), all the hosts/cooks are refreshing and I also enjoy the antics of Anthony Bourdain.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Quote:


caribbeanpot said:


> Used to love watching the Two Fat Ladies - BBC. I now enjoy watching New Scandinavian Cooking (PBS), all the hosts/cooks are refreshing and I also enjoy the antics of Anthony Bourdain.


I caught that show a few times on PBS - loved it. Loved all the other stuff going on too - Where they would go around the villages and markets in town. Really an awesome show.


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## gunnar (Apr 3, 2008)

I like people with spirit, attitude and the ability to back it up, so you'd think I'd like Bobby Flay more...but I don't. I do like Ramsay as he portrayed himself on Kitchen Nightmares and The F Word..F Word especially

Anthony Bourdain on both his series "A Cooks Tour" and "No Reservations"

Mario Batali, cause I like his style and quite frankly, for a big man he can move in a kitchen like a dancer. Also he smiles like he is holding a secret that if you asked him just right, he would say "I don't know what your talking about."

Marin Yan and the Cajun cook from the old PBS cooking shows

I would gladly rinse rice and wash floors to work with Morimoto, as humble as he seems that man is an unbelievable talent

and I don remember his name, but I once caught an old series called a Fat Man in France...i think...I still remember him trying cheeses and eating dried apples saying what a marvel they were


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*Gunnar,*_ I think you are referencing _Tom Vernon_, a British broadcaster and writer, best known as the titular _"Fat Man"_ of a number of popular travelogues.

_Fat Man at Work_ and his first television series, _Fat Man in the Kitchen_, deviated from the travelogue style of the other series. The former featured Vernon talking to people working in factories, while the latter was a cookery program filmed in his own kitchen in Muswell Hill in which each edition was devoted to cuisine of a different country.

He had these other radio shows too: _Fat Man on a Bicycle_ (1979), _Fat Man in Italy_ (1980), _Fat Man on a Roman Road_ (1983), _Fat Man at Work_ (1983). His TV shows included: _Fat Man in the Kitchen_ (1985-6, two series), _Fat Man Goes Norse_ (1987), _Fat Man in Argentina_ (1990), _Fat Man Goes Cajun_ (1991), _Fat Man in France_ (1994), _Fat Man Wilts_ (1995), _Fat Man of Kent_ (1996). I think he has also written five or so books.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_the Cajun cook from the old PBS cooking shows_

That would be Justin "Some Hot Sauce To Taste" Wilson?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Just as an interesting aside, have y'all heard the promo for tonight's Restaurant Impossible episode? One of the owners is saying, "we didn't have any experience running a restaurant, but what could go wrong?"

OMG! Should we make him a list? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## spacechef16 (Feb 1, 2011)

Ina Garten has changed my life! She has turned me from a good home cook to an excellent home chef with her techniques, tips and recipes. Her recipes are easy to follow and always come out exactly right. She includes excellent pictures in all of her recipe books which provide inspiration and give you an idea of what the meal should look like. Everything she makes looks good! I followed many chefs but until I really fell in love with Ina, I hadn't known what it was to have a real inspiration.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said:


> Just as an interesting aside, have y'all heard the promo for tonight's Restaurant Impossible episode? One of the owners is saying, "we didn't have any experience running a restaurant, but what could go wrong?"
> 
> OMG! Should we make him a list? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


now what fun would that be ky?...much more entertaining this way,in a sadistic kind of way!.......not familiar with the show, but do know that there are lots of businesses that open that a'way....you know, clueless... seems the restaurant biz is chock full of people who think that just cuz they can make toast without burning it, they should open up a' little place'...how hard can it be?...well, maybe we make it look easy!....some are hard headed, know everythings who really don't want your advice anyway...not really...they just want to show you what they got

joey

did everyone thaw out yet? coldest its ever been in southern arizona...whole town froze basically...nobody buries their water pipes more than a few inches...well, til now! no water was to be had in the whole town..people driving an hour away...makes you REALLY think about being self sustained though... big mess at the ranch, the heated pool pipes busted and its a water works, the pond pump froze, kitchen water pump froze so no water in the kitchen(we hauled and boiled), employees couldn't make it to work cuz their car batteries froze...guests had to change rooms due to frozen pipes, no heat...that kind of thing, guests not being either able to get there or to leave due to worse weather elsewhere in the country...fun,fun week...glad its over and we're warming up nicely...hope you all are doing the same....sorry for the ramble, but thanks...


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_much more entertaining this way,in a sadistic kind of way!......._

Hmmmmmm. I always pictured you as a sweet, demure, friendly sort of gal. Now it turns out you're really a Frank Baum character. You know, the one who's name ended, ".....of the East." /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I like Robert Irvine .He is not the greatest cook as such, but given all types of situations  he pulls it off one way or another. I can appreciate this because it is like doing outside catering. You never know what can happen but whatever it is,""" Just Deal With It"""


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## melindaii (Jan 20, 2011)

I was surprised to see your entry as it is the exactly like mine. Alton is smart and informative and of course the early black& white shows or on PBS were my training ground.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _much more entertaining this way,in a sadistic kind of way!......._
> 
> Hmmmmmm. I always pictured you as a sweet, demure, friendly sort of gal. Now it turns out you're really a Frank Baum character. You know, the one who's name ended, ".....of the East." /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


yeah, i'm a regular pollyanna...thanks for the great review for eric ripert's new cookbook......now it's a 'must have'...geez, portobello fries with truffle oil aioli...nice!

joey


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## sirgss (Feb 8, 2011)

I gotta chip in with everyone else touting the Alton Brown flag.  I really enjoy his approach to a show--Science, silliness, encouraging, and through it all still very serious in his message.  The fact that his set looks like an actual home also helps.  I know it's just a set, but the layout on his show has a measure of authenticity to its design, IMO.  I dunno, it's just really great watching his work--Any recipe he throws out there, I feel pretty secure in being able to do, and safe in the knowledge that it will come out alright.  The man is just enthusiastic, and an enjoyable watch.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_geez, portobello fries with truffle oil aioli...nice!_

More than just nice, Joey. The word is addictive. If you make them, figure on at least doubling the number of 'shrooms.

One of the things I most liked about the book is that, unlike most chef-written books, this one is real; inspiration for the professional, and recipes the home-cook can easily replicate.


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## pcieluck (Dec 9, 2010)

Alton Brown, mostly because I believe that the food network is what it is today thanks primarily to Alton Brown. That and any REAL chef. Some of them are really just personalities, and I don't have much respect for them. Bobby Flay. There's a guy who started at the very bottom and worked his way to the very top.  Gordon Ramsay. Compare a picture of him only a few years ago to now. He has clearly worked himself to death just to be as close to the best as he can.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I believe that *the food network is what it is today *thanks primarily to Alton Brown._

That would be what? Superficial, non-educational, and insulting to anybody---professional or at-home---who really cooks?


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Since we have our first foodchannel in Belgium, they show subtitled programs from all over the world.

I'm already a big, big, big fan of Italian, but based in the UK, *Giorgio Locatelli*; fantastic no-nonsense cook, contemporary presentation of original Italian dishes. I love it!

On the other hand I came to totally dislike Gary Rhodes and his utterly boring Carribean Tour.


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## granny smith (Jan 31, 2011)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _I believe that *the food network is what it is today *thanks primarily to Alton Brown._
> 
> That would be what? Superficial, non-educational, and insulting to anybody---professional or at-home---who really cooks?


Thank you for that! I've resisted posting on this thread because that's my opinion, too. Well, that, along with the fact that so many of the recipes are not something an at-home cook would make for various reasons (cost, time constraints, availability of quality ingredients, etc).

For pure entertainment, I like Nadia G, from Bitchin' Kitchen. I probably won't ever make any of her recipes, but she's so much fun to watch.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

ChrisBelgium

LocandaLocatelli in Mayfair is one of my present faves when I visit family in London! He's a great chef.

http://www.locandalocatelli.com/web/menu.aspx


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks for posting that link, Ishbel! What a nice place and look at that menu. Next time I'm in London, that will be my place to go.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

He is (maybe was?) involved in a restaurant within the Churchill Hotel - don't know if he's still cheffing it - I've never been there, so have no opinion on it!


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## longcolts (Jan 23, 2011)

My favorite was and still is Emeril Lagasse, for one main reason, watching him showed me that cooking can be fun, and he was right! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif


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## mattfin (Apr 16, 2007)

The chef who cooks most like me and whose style I most try to match is Jamie Oliver.  Great style, fabulous approach and genuine, simple presentations that make the food the star - not the chef. Alton Brown's science is fun, and Mario Batali is a genius in the kitchen. I'll leave out my negative feelings towards all the others here...


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

caribbeanpot said:


> Used to love watching the Two Fat Ladies - BBC. I now enjoy watching New Scandinavian Cooking (PBS), all the hosts/cooks are refreshing and I also enjoy the antics of Anthony Bourdain.


Oh, I forgot about the fat ladies! I loved them. But most of their recipes were heart attacks waiting to happen.

OTOH, this seems as good a place as any to say I cannot stand Anthony Bourdain. What an arrogant a$$. He wants to turn food into the kind of class dividing issue that home decor is. A world where he and his cronies are the upper echelon and everyone else is dirt beneath their feet. I heard him on NPR once. It revealed that not only was I right in my assessment of him, he was even worse than I had suspected.


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## pastryhall (Jan 20, 2011)

I enjoy watching Guy Fieri. I like how he will actually go into restuarants and try items as well as show how they are made.


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## transchef (Feb 25, 2011)

Morimoto. Too bad he is Asian and cannot speak English. If he were not, he would have his own TV show already. His cooking is well-thought out and yes, intelligently beautiful.


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## notbert (Sep 23, 2007)

Jacques Pepin, the man is an amazing teacher.


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## worldmaster (Mar 1, 2011)

it have to be mario batalli hi is the most expireance chef


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

You're joking, right?


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## cardcaptor (Feb 16, 2011)

My fav celeb chef is Alton Brown. no one else i know likes him. he is silly and informative.


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## quelper (Feb 28, 2007)

Julia Child


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## janet graziano (Mar 7, 2011)

I like Barefoot Contessa and Rachael Ray.   We cook alike.  I'm Italian.............


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## veggiesvillage (Mar 17, 2011)

I enjoy watching Alton Brown's Good Eats and Giada De Laurentiis.


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Due to the recent mud slinging on TV, I thought I'd revive this thread.

I can't stand Bordain. He's trying to make the world of food elitist, which is one thing. But actually calling some people dangerous cooks? I don't think that is going to fly, even among his snobby friends.

http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/Paula...cereal/8316990&rss=rss-wabc-ent_story-8316990

While I'm not really a fan, I will say that Paula Deen's fare goes over big at church suppers when I take stuff made from her recipes. I have people requesting her pumpkin gooey cake long befor Thanksgiving ever gets here. So I cannot say she's is of no use in the cooking world. I do groan as I open up all the sticks of butter, though, saying a little prayer for them, "God please prevent this from sticking to the inside of their arteries".

DD


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

I never cared much for Anthony Bourdain.  I also don't subscribe to Cable or Satellite , I have an antenna for broadcast and it's supplemented with a Netflix account.  

My view is that many of the current TV personalities are an insult to the Chefs who started cooking programs for us to watch...and to learn.  I love plenty of Southern Cooking, but the thought of Paula Deans cooking turns my stomach.  

My favorite Celebrity Chefs would still be John Folse, John Besh, Thomas Keller, Rick Bayless, Jose Andres, with Grant Achazt among many others that aren't of celebrity status that should be added to the mix.

Dan  

(oh, upon writing this I wasn't aware of any tiff between Bourdain and Dean)


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Pepin for ever and ever.

There is simply no substitue for perfection in technique.  And he combines it with the most interesting philosophy.

I do enjoy watching all the guys who freeze honey or foam grilling smoke and all that, but I respect perfection in simplicity much more than doing stuff just because you can.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I'll second Pepin, as far as overall knowlege and technique. I do not consider him a celebrity chef. He is a tru chef that has spanned era's.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It depends a great deal on what you mean by "favorite," "celebrity," and "chef."

If I'm choosing someone who's got a show which is currently or was recently in production, I'd have to limit the pool to several of the past or current Iron Chefs, Anne Burrell, Alex Guarnaschelli, and... well there are a few others. So even with those limits, maybe it's not that small a pool and I end up with a few favorites.

Lots of people cook all sorts of interesting food I don't cook at all; and lots of people just plain cook better than me. That doesn't mean that all of them are favorites _per se_, but I'd certainly like to try their food. While there are a great many people on the Food and Cooking Networks (same ownership) for whom I have no respect whatsoever, it seems as if the group for whom I do is much larger than many of yours. Go figure.

BDL


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> It depends a great deal on what you mean by "favorite," "celebrity," and "chef."...
> 
> BDL


The same thought crossed my mind this morning, especially concerning "celebrity", let alone "chef".

In his day, Joe DiMaggio was a "celebrity baseball player". Why, IMHO because he excelled at playing baseball, not because he was "marketed" as a celebrity.

I guess I'm showing my age /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif, a "celebrated chef" should be one who excels at his craft, i.e. producing nutritious meals that are attractive, tasty, and profitable. In other words, a successful CEO of a food production enterprise. The ability to teach others to follow in his/her footsteps is an added bonus.

In this day and age though, many a "celebrity chef" appears to be very similar to Paris Hilton, a great deal of hype with little substance.

BTA, WTHDIK


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## bodhran1965 (May 4, 2011)

Don't forget that for every 'celebrity' chef you see on television there are 5000 other chefs/ cooks working in restaurants, hotels and catering kitchens around the world who are just as good.

Ken Harper


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## bodhran1965 (May 4, 2011)

Don't forget that for every 'celebrity' chef you see on television there are 5000 other chefs/ cooks working in restaurants, hotels and catering kitchens around the world who are just as good.

Ken Harper


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Anne Burrell, Alex Guarnaschelli, and... well there are a few others._

Alex G., BDL? Really?

I wish you'd expand on why you'd include her. I don't see it at all.

First off, she'd be a lot more appealing if she'd removed the maize stem from her posterior region. But that aside, her cooking, IMO, is pedestrian, uninspiring, and, in general, boring. That is, what little cooking she does. Most of her celebrity status comes from other FN celebrities proclaiming how great she is, and as a judge or panel member of other FN shows such as Chopped, The Best Thing I Ever Ate, etc. In other words, she's merely a product of FN's incestuous touting of it's created stars.

BTW, other than as a challenger and judge I don't believe she was ever on Iron Chef. Anne Burrell, was, for a long time, one of Mario Batali's sous chefs, but was never an actual Iron Chef herself. A real shame, too, because she's certainly got all the right stuff to be one.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Alex Guarnaschelli was a big deal chef long before going on television. She was at Guy Savoy, Boulud, Patina and has been exec at Butter for a long time -- like ten years, I think. That's a pretty good resume. She has her own show, Alex's Day Off, which is okay in my book. Cat Cora beat her on Iron Chef, but I'm never really convinced by a Cora victory. Cora is the only Iron Chef I can think of whom I never liked. Her food is too pretty, and she leans too heavily on sous who were more "ringers" than assistants. 

It's true Anne Burrell was never an Iron Chef, but I never said or thought she was. It's also true she was Mario's go-to sous on the show, but her real-life mentor was Lidia Bastianich -- or at least so the story goes. Burrell also has her own show, Secrets of a Restaurant Chef, which has its moments. Besides, she's kind of sexy.

Based only on their celebrity presence, you may think guys like Scott Conant and Jeffrey Zakarian are major jerks, but that doesn't mean they can't cook. In fact, they really, really can. 

I've got nothing against the old guard like Jacques Pepin, but "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" if you know what I mean. When we watch cooking shows, we may just be looking at and for different things. That's okay. There aren't right or wrong answers. 

I enjoy straight-ahead, technically correct, not overly-complicated, contemporary, ingredient-driven cooking and feel Burrell and Guranaschilli do a pretty good job of it. There are plenty of other people I like as well, but chose to name the two women instead of Michael Symon, Morimoto, et alia, because why not? I like lady-chefs, so sue me. 

BDL


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you for that explanation. I can understand that she's got a pretty good pedigree, but _Alex Guarnaschelli_ is in the team pic of TV people that I would like to choke. I can't stand her. I can't watch _Chopped_ because she's a regular judge. I hate almost any of the other judges on that show anyway. Now as for _Anne Burrell_, OMG, I love her. She could be Mrs.Iceman tomorrow if she wanted. I really dig full-sized chicks, especially those with appreciable skills like being a chef.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I like lady-chefs, so sue me._

Me too, Boar. But without much mental effort I can name a half dozen off the top of my head who can both out-cook and out-personality Alex G.....starting with Anne Burrell, and including, in no particular order, the likes of Ana Sortun, Michele Bernstein, Sue Milliken, Sara Moulton, and Lidia Bastianich. With a little thought I could probably double that list or more, and include several who are Cheftalk members. And that's confining them to women who can both cook and who are chefs. There's a legion of women, in the industry, who in any objective comparison, can cook better than Alex. But, alas, they are neither chefs nor celebrities.

_It's true Anne Burrell was never an Iron Chef, but I never said or thought she was._

I'm sorry. I must be having trouble with the English language this morning. Who was it said: "I'd have to limit the pool to several of the *past or current *Iron Chefs, Anne Burrell, Alex Guarnaschelli, and.."

Everybody has their own opinion, of course. But Alex G. makes my teeth ache on all levels, which is why I asked for more explanation. This is one of those times where you and I are never going to come close to agreeing.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

And I've never heard of any of these people. The benighted status of those who don't pay for TV.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Your English _could_ use some brushing up. Take the sentence, "I like women, you, and Phatch." In that perfectly grammatical sentence, neither you nor Phil are women.

BDL


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## tylerm713 (Aug 6, 2010)

BDL's right. He would have been including Alex G. and Anne Burrell in the pool of Iron Chefs if he had written "I'd have to limit the pool to several of the past or current Iron Chefs*:* Anne Burrell, Alex Guarnaschelli, and.."

Anyway, semantics aside, I can't stand Alex G.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

As far as workng banquet, a la cart or production  in my book I would take Ann Burell over Cat Cora and her entourage  any day I would also like to work alongside Chef Robert Irvin  from Dinner Impossible. My kind of guy can overcome any obstacle.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Hubert Keller. The chef just knows how to cook and plate beautifully.


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## serbianchef (Aug 22, 2011)

Jamie Oliver,of course.


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Oh, I forgot about him, I really like him and his cooking not only looks devine, it appears to have everything going for it.

*EDIT*: Anyone not familiar with Kellar, here is a YouTube video showing his new (at the time) restaurant, and some of his dishes.






He is on PBS, so no cable service required. Most of his dishes on TV are not so elaborate as the ones shown in the clip.

As for Jacque Pepin, I didn't care much for him or his cooking style when I was younger. Now I really appreciate his cooking and I have learned a lot from him. Love it that he stresses technique.


petalsandcoco said:


> Hubert Keller. The chef just knows how to cook and plate beautifully.


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## i love cooking (Aug 16, 2011)

I love paula deen. Because most  of her recipe have butter and I like butter. Plus I love bobby flay because his way of grilling is so good and i love it


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_And I've never heard of any of these people._

Which just gets us back to the nature of "celebrity." Nowadays, it appears, "celebrity" and being on TV are close to being synonyms. And, while it sometimes happens that being a TV presence and having talent coincide, it's not a requirement. Cooking chops, it seems, is the least important part of the equation. To achieve widespread celebrity status you don't have to impress the dining public. All you need impress is a producer and/or an agent. If that person also happens to be an FN star, then you're made, even if you have a personality like a toad and less than stellar cooking skills. Alex G. is a star only because Bobby Flay is her rabbi.

But that's ok. If we're going to talk about female chefs who can actually cook, and who don't have to read the instruction "smile" on a cue card, we don't have to stray far from home. How about the likes of Durangojo, Petalsandcoco, and Shipscook to name just a few? I'd stack any one of them against Alex G., spot her the first dish, and still put my money on our girls.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

aw, shucks ky..you got me to blushin'...i thank you from the bottom of my heart...would be kinda fun to 'pit' us against them though...hmmmm......

petals.....mon amie....un plasir de vous revoir

joey


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm with you, Phatch.  When basic cable went over $50/mo, I decided I could easily live without it.

I'm amazed people do pay high prices for that load of [email protected]  If I became a billionaire tomorrow, I

still would not pay $50/mo for cable.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I have to agree with Tony Bourdain, Quote "She is the worst""(Paula Deen)  She is good at selling pots and pans.


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## gourmetm (Jun 27, 2011)

The Galloping Gourmet. Remember him?


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Graham Kerr  and his genius wife Trina who produced his show


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## chef matt (Aug 25, 2011)

Chef Bobby Flay has to be my favorite. Brilliant and yet humble at the same time.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Humble????? Surely you are joking.  Good at grilling everything else is done for him.


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