# Help me choose



## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Okay.

So I had posted some stuff about knives earlier, now I've been doing a lot of research as to what is actually available domestic/international (not much sadly, if only I'd taken my inheritance and invested in a fine cutlery retail operation... but no, retail is hell).

I've narrowed it down to a few choices, with JCK being my kind of backup (can anyone confirm that they ship "gifts"? I'm trying to avoid duty taxes like the plague as I've had really negative experience with our customs officials in the past)..

Assuming I were going to buy from within Canada, my choices are limited and expensive (more expensive actually than to convert to USD and pay shipping, the unknown variable for me is what customs is going to hit me with)... My options are...

Yaxell MON VG-10 250mm gyuto (this is on sale down from 150 and change) $131.95
Tojiro DP VG-10 240mm gyuto $149.00
Misono Molybdenum 240mm gyuto $152.95
Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff (proprietary stainless) 240mm gyuto (these are the normal western ones, supposed to compete with the UX10) $167.95

Would you pay this kind of money for any of these knives? They all seem so overpriced to me that I almost am considering just ordering from JCK and pfuff the duty charges if they come, I want good steel at a price that won't make me cry and I think any of us would probably shed a tear or two if someone ruined a $150 blade. 

From JCK I am looking at the Kanetsugu PRO-M series because they look pretty amazing. Haven't seen much on here other than a few old posts by BDL saying they are a solid buy.

Unless I am looking at all the wrong distributors in Canada? Paulsfinest and knifewear both seem to be making money hand over fist with markups... lol I'm in the wrong business I guess. Though I do realize, retail is hell.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

That tojiro dp is out of control. I believe it was $80 on amazon last time I looked.

Anyway I had jck ship to the US and I'm 95% sure it was marked as a gift, i certainly did not pay import or customs . You can email koki to be sure.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

I paid 72 for my 8.2 in tojiro dp gyutou amazon

I was worried bout tax also

A co worker received some knives marked " hunting equipment" recently...
Cant remember where or what I'll check


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Paul's been pretty solid to deal with, in my experience. He actually has pretty good prices (for Canada, at least) on the Victorinox. From a knife selection standpoint, it really depends on what you want and you have to recognize that we DO have to deal with duties. 

Here's the thing with gifts - they, too, are subject to duty (if valued over $60). 

At some point, you have to look at convenience, time, shipping, and hassle to decide on your selection.

Personally, I have one knife from Paul (Moritaka...I love that thing) and have just ordered a bunch of Victorinox for Christmas gifts and I also bought my Choseras from him. I'd also get the Idahone from him, doing it again. 

I have several knives from JCK (Hattori HD-8, Kagayaki VG-10 KV-2, and Hattori FH-13C) and never paid duty on those and they were shipped as gifts. 

I also have several from CKTG but I picked those up in Blaine, WA due to my proximity to the border. I think I paid GST when I came back in, but I don't remember as they were brought back on various trips (Tojiro DP Santoku, some Victorinox parers, Victorinox bread, Edge Pro Chosera set, Idahone 10", and a Tojiro DP Western Deba that I use to smack the hell out of chicken backs). 

Amazon.ca has a pretty good price on a Tojiro 8"...

The problem with the internet and globalization is that we get exposed to the prices that others pay and we get sad because we pay significantly more for the same products. But hey, we've got pretty good healthcare...


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

^ you use a western deba for breaking down poultry eh? isn't the japanese deba supposed to be a bit sturdier in that application? Or was I reading wrong 

I know amazon has the Tojiros for cheaper but most of them are shipped directly from Japan. If i'm going to wait a month I may as well wait for something from Koki, wouldnt you guys think? I think most if not all of the knives mentioned are going to perform similarly (ie. they're all low end). And then I'm also looking at things like this and I wonder... Is this half the price of knifewear and other competitors just because it's a damned good deal? or is the merch defective or counterfit in some way?? negative nancy that I am I suppose.

My local guy has Vic at a really good price so I'm set for throwaways in that aspect.

Lol pretty good healthcare?? Maybe in your province!!


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

My Amazon Tojiro purchase took 3 days, I think they stock them here in Canada. I like it.
72$ no shipping charge.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Hummah. Well. I guess I was much ado about nothing then.

Any real caveats with the Tojiro? Anyone hazard a guess what the bevel is on these? 70/30?


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

SpoiledBroth said:


> ^ you use a western deba for breaking down poultry eh? isn't the japanese deba supposed to be a bit sturdier in that application? Or was I reading wrong /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


I'm no chef. I just cook. The Deba is heavy and goes through...anything. Nice for chicken bones. I used an axe once on a big turkey. It worked well for breaking it down for stock.

What would you get from Koki (JCK)?

One thing I've discovered after going through everything you're going through - there's no magic knife - there's just comfort and sharpness. I use my Hattori HD a lot because it's stainless and easy and sharpens nicely but I also use my Moritaka a lot because it's longer, a bit easier to sharpen, although I've rusted it up a couple of times because, jesus, that carbon goes quickly if you don't wipe it right away. They're both great in their own way, though.

What I'm trying to say is that if you get something recognized as being a good product, you'll probably be pretty happy with it. Question really is how much do you want to spend on fit and finish?

The $72 DP 8" on Amazon is just removing the Japanese shipping part out of the equation.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

The real Tojiro caveat?

The handle is clunky and kinda ugly. It feels "big" on the smaller santoku that we have but really, it's not that bad. It's just not "awesome" - if that makes sense.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Deputy said:


> I'm no chef. I just cook. The Deba is heavy and goes through...anything. Nice for chicken bones. I used an axe once on a big turkey. It worked well for breaking it down for stock.
> 
> What would you get from Koki (JCK)?
> 
> ...


It's actually a 240 going for 70 on Amazon which is almost perfect for me. I was looking at Kanetsugu Pro-M from Koki. I like those moritaka someone was using one of their pettys at a place I staged at... you could tell he was babying the hell out of it though, which is the opposite of what I intend to do with mine. That's why I'm kinda sold on the Torjio because at the price point I could have my whole wrap lifted (stolen) and not be too upset. Actually a suji gyuto and petty at the amazon prices cost less than my current german chefs...  Are all the handles clunky or are they just clunkier on smaller knives??


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Deputy said:


> The real Tojiro caveat?
> 
> The handle is clunky and kinda ugly.


The " G" for good is not inlaid on handle. The japanese script on blade also not inlaid.

Handle feels fine on my knife.

Its sharp. Bevel is 5050 I think.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Really??? 50/50? Decent. Any issues with chipping out? That's probably my biggest fear with VG-10 though I've really only read about that problem concerning Shun. I think the handles should be fine because I'm the kind of person that can palm a basketball no problem, typically I find most handles to be undersized (though who cares so long as they don't affect your pinch grip!


Is the deadened san-mai feeling really an issue? (my understanding is that DPs are VG-10 clad with some kind of stainless, could be misinformed?) Last question really: anyone have a spine measurement on a gyuto? I'm looking at the 240 so anything in and around that range would probably give me some idea how thick these things are. Would have to drive quite a few hours out of province to handle one so... Thanks big time to anyone who contributed in this thread! Saved me untold amounts of money haha


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Here's a recent review with a picture of the choil that shows the thickness/tapering

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/20060-First-impression-Tojiro-DP-210-gyuto/page2

It's the 210, but I would guess the 240 thickness is similar


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

We have the Damascus DP 170 Santoku (my wife is tiny) and really, none of those are issues. The handle is meh but she doesn't care and neither do I - at the end of the day, it's a tool and an effective one.

No issues in our use with chippiness (yes). I don't know what the deadened feeling refers to - I find that when I place it on a product and move my hand in an appropriate manner, it separates that product from itself and therefore achieves its purpose. It doesn't make rainbows and butterflies explode from my palm while in use, but that's okay...because it...y'know...cuts stuff and stuff...

If I'm not mistaken (and I might be - I'm no expert) - most stainless knives are clad.

Mark gives measurements: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpchkn24.html - I assume they're accurate...?

I think the thing with the Tojiros and other similarly priced items - they're good and effective, just not pretty.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

I mean mono steel versus clad, ie. the Tojiro is (indeed) vg-10 clad with something else, whereas your Misono Moly or even Vic is mono. My understanding is that mono knives feel different than san-mai and that some people really don't care for san mai-- I guess it's a bit of a silly question.


At the end of the day these are purely functional tools but because they're going to be glued to my hands for at least the next few years, 80-100 hours a week, I want to make as sure as possible I'll like (or at least not hate) what I'm getting. A symmetric bevel was what I was mostly interested in (ergo the Kanetsugu Pro-M from Koki).

I think that from what I have read these will be a good step up from my Zwilling Henckel 4-star knives, which are all swaled to bits at this point.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Yeah I dont think it would really put me off the knives anyways was just wondering if anyone could describe it better, hence why I said it was a silly question. 

Nevermind what I wrote here, I'm not familiar with amazon. Nonetheless, is counterfitting an issue or no?


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Haven't heard of it for knives but I'm not "in the biz."


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Go into a store try different knives the one that is most comfortable to you should be the one you purchase. Do not look at prices first. To pay 100.00 or more is insanity. I have about 40 assorted knives accumulating them over 50 years. Some of the cheaper ones I have are the best.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

chefedb said:


> Go into a store try different knives the one that is most comfortable to you should be the one you purchase. Do not look at prices first. To pay 100.00 or more is insanity. I have about 40 assorted knives accumulating them over 50 years. Some of the cheaper ones I have are the best.


No decent cutlery stores in town to speak of, at least I'm not willing to drop 200 on MAC Mighty.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

I like the Vic knives but the edge retention is very poor. I can justify the paring and boning knives, I'm on the fence currently about whether I want to get that Tojiro ITK bread knife because it's really only available to Americans so I'd have to have it shipped to family down there. I currently work mostly with a Zwilling 4-Star 9" chefs, the edge rentention is so-so, but it's swaling badly and bent up. For the price of a Vic Rosewood 10" chefs (locally) I can get the Tojiro 240mm gyuto on Amazon. Seems like a no brainer really, the Vic has a handle most people find too large as well lol. I like to grab chef's ST Grand Chef SP but I think even 150 is a little out of my price range and I have fallen out of love with granton edging since coming to this site. It's a really nice knife nonetheless. I like to try out knives when I see them at work, if possible, but I don't think you can say much about a knife using it for 15-20 minutes, not being able to see how it sharpens up etc. So I'd have to agree with @Benuser


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Enough about knives already this is not a cutlery site.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It *is* the knife subforum


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

How do you verify deburring? I just check if my thumbnail catches as it slides off the edge but I suspect if the burr is sufficiently small that method is probably unreliable. Also is there any reason not to just use wine corks for deburring?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

SpoiledBroth said:


> How do you verify deburring? I just check if my thumbnail catches as it slides off the edge but I suspect if the burr is sufficiently small that method is probably unreliable. Also is there any reason not to just use wine corks for deburring?


You can run it lightly along the barrel of a Sharpie kind of like you are "steeling" it. That will tell you straight away if you have a burr. Beburring is a somewhat controversial topic. Some insist that if you simply rip off work hardened material (ie the burr) that you're leaving stressed and ragged steel under it. Those holding to that point of view will advocate working the burr on progressively finer stones until it's worked away. Personally I deburr on a leather belt doped with 0.5 mic Chromium oxide and let the chips fall where they may. I will say though that if I'm sharpening on waterstones I don't deliberately deburr after around 2k.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The Vic is a little on the soft side, still I would think a ceramic steel would keep it going for a good while. And you can fix up the handle to fit like a glove:

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/81804/victorinox-forschner-as-starter-knives .

My wusty Ikon is the same metal but harder, it produces only little by way of a bur, but the Vic is more pronounced here. It's rather fine still and you could possibly have been overlooking it. You can see it at first. You should be able to feel when it's gone, but I'm guessing what Phaedrus advised will be more reliable for many.

I use what I like to call the Benuser technique of bur removal, because he recognized its significance enough to stress it. Once the bur is there you take a stropping stroke flip the knife over and with light pressure pull the knife across the stone perpendicular to the stones length with a slight edge-leading movement. Then just flip and repeat, about a half dozen or a dozen times in the case of the Vic. I'll follow that by a few light stropping strokes to maximize the edge and add a microbevel.

The Tojiro does seem like a no-brainer for you at this time. Shun sharpens their VG10 to 16deg/side. I'm guessing for this alloy it is an optimal compromise between sharpness and edge retention. Some alloys, like S110V, will hold an edge forever, but their performance here drops off rapidly in relation to other alloys when you start getting real acute on the angle. VG10 is like this.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

So you're saying not to push lower than 16 degrees for vg-10?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I find VG10 can be taken down to 13-15 degrees per side depending how careful you are with your knives.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> I find VG10 can be taken down to 13-15 degrees per side depending how careful you are with your knives.


Precisely, I had my steak knife at about 12, but as you can guess it never hit a board.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Micro beveling is the trick.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

OK 240mm Tojiro gyuto is being express shipped here, hopefully in time to beat the holiday post rush! Thanks for the info folks!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Rick Alan said:


> Micro beveling is the trick.
> 
> Rick


Yeah, you can do a 10 degree primary with a micro bevel at around 15-17 and it will stay sharp for quite a while. Best of both worlds.


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