# Anyone else about tired of PETA?



## culinarian247 (Jan 21, 2002)

Now they're boycotting KFC because they _don't_ do chicken right. Apparently it's okay to kill a chicken but only in a PETA-approved manner. Look here.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

... since the day they were formed. 

Phil


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

I didn't know that PETA was a real association, I just thought it was a joke, that's why I'm took the signature. I can't open the posted link, but could you please tell me more about this group, are they anything like green peace ??.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'm sick of them, the environmentalists, the anti-gun lobby. Ph*que 'em all. Otherwise I'd have a small practice in Lone Pine, California. Those groups are responsible for the deifcit of jobs plaguing that state. ...bunch of trust fund hippies. Grrrrr.


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## culinarian247 (Jan 21, 2002)

No, coolj they aren't. I liken each member to a Sith Lord of the Dark Side.  I'd much rather join your organization: People Eating Tasty Animals. Now there's something to be proud of! 

They're a conglomerate of misguided anomalies that have plagued mankind for too long. 


They are a direct threat to us all, especially the culinarians. Purveyors of fine cuisine that include animal flesh. I take great offense to ANY organization that threatens my bank account. F**k 'em all.......................


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

The problem with these PETA is that they are so fanatical. I have agreed with with some of their issues in the past, but their fanaticism makes most of their platforms just a bunch of rantings and ravings. Any time a group becomes fanatical they make themselves and their cause seem all that more stupid and insignificant, whether it is the fundamental right, fundamenal christians, the Islamic Jihad or any such group that takes their message to the extreme.

Do I feel that some of our farming practices are cruel to animals? Yes. do I feel that using animals to experiment on, in certain cases, is wrong? Yes. Would I ever throw my hat in with the likes of PETA? Maybe when **** freezes over!!! PETA loves to criticize, but they often don't offer viable solutions other than for the entire world to become tree-hugging vegans.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Alot of members of those kinds of groups are trust fund hippies who are so sufficiently well-off financially that they don't need jobs unlike the rest of us.


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

I think its important to acknowledge the role that we as people living in the culinary world play in livestock production and conditions. Buy locally. Know your growers, your distributors, etc. When you hear of something that seems unethical, do your part. Don't buy Chilean Sea Bass if you hear its going extinct. Etc.

I do feel PETA is extreme, but they also don't make up the facts. Some people aren't bothered by animals being treated with inhumane conditions. Like my friend says, well, they aren't human, are they? It just depends what your attitude toward them is.

My friend Melody is a vet student. To learn surgeries, they do practice surgeries on animals. The PETA people protest and ended up getting their major animal resource taken away. But would you want a vet to do a surgery on YOUR animal if they'd only read about in books first? Probably not. She has had to endure people spitting on her as she walks to class, which is disgusting.

Yes, I am a vegetarian. But also proudly not a member of PETA. I think as long as I use dead animal and plant bodies to drive down the road (its called OIL people, and I think PETA people still drive) and dead trees to live under, I will have to acknowledge that we also use dead animals to live on and to keep us warm. 

I could quote a lot of statistics, but that's beside the point. People assume sometimes that since I am a vegetarian I am a PETAhead. I've also had the assumption made that since I believe in God that I am a fanatical right-wing hide-in-my-basement and kill-abortion-doctors person, which woudl also be incorrect. 

Having a conviction is different from being a fanatic. Leave room for others around you with different beliefs and convictions, and you'll do just fine!!

 

~~Shimmer~~


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I couldn't agree more with what's been said so far and in many cases very eloquently. Makes me proud to be a member of the group, because normally, as Groucho said "I wouldn't want to be part of any group that would have me as a member"!
Well said people!


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Right On!, Shimmer. You stated your case beautifully and I agree with you.

Someone once told me they felt that groups like PETA and Greenpeace serve the very useful function of garnering public attention to relevent issues. They carve the way for other groups with more political and scientific clout and credibility (such as the Nature Conservancy) to do the quiet, but necessary work of protecting and securing our natural resources.

While I do eat some meat (necessary for me to prevent persistent anemia) and wear leather shoes, I also speak out about the brutality and ostentatiousness of wearing fur and consuming foie gras. While I believe it's a necessary evil to kill animals for food, I also believe it's unnecessary to torture them to do so.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

One doesn't need to lie to distort the truth. Many times it is all in how you say something, or facts that you chose to omit. I trust very little of what PETA has to say. They, like so many fanatics love to only believe the theories, statistics, etc. thay support what they believe, and are very quick to condemn findings that oppose their views. Thus much of what they write is very one-sided, and only based, often times, on partial fact.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

This one's for CoolJ: People Eating Tasty Animals Scary!

As for PETA fabricating evidence, I remember a case that went to court 10-12 years ago, regarding the use of monkeys for entertainment. They had fabricated evidence that steel pipes were used to beat them, which was later proven to be untrue. PETA claimed that the only way to really prove abuse was to peel back the skin of the monkies to see evidence of bruising, which the court denied them. Ironic, isn't it? They lost and the 'trust fund hippies' had to pay a few mils. I'm sure it was appealed and probably dragged on for a few years but I lost interest....

PETA, has also been known to donate funds to FBI-declared domestic terrorist group such as the Earth Liberation Front. If it's credibility they're looking for, that's just not the way to get it....


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

Okay, I managed to open the posted links to PETA and the KFC stuff. I really don't believe all this stuff about the chickens being treated inhumanely. A big thank you for bring this info to my attention.


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

I think that in the production of meat (and poultry in particular) there is undeniably some cruelty involved. We consume such massive quantities that to think otherwise is being unrealistc. I have seen battery hens crammed into tiered cages and fed a diet of chemicals to promote the production of eggs. They spend their entire productive lives in that condition. But I still eat eggs without a second thought. I love foi gras, and so on. 
The bottom line is, people are cruel to animals whether consiouslly, deliberately or not. Most of us are indifferent to it and some protest by not eating meat. Not me. I am a full, card carrying carnivor. I trust that with modern practices the meat I consume is sustanably farmed and the animal is treated humanely.
The fact of the matter is, we are at the top of the food chain. A lion or an eagle doesn't stop to ponder the ethics of eating their prey alive. They need to sustain themselves just as we do. 
I abhor wanton or gratuitous cruelty. However, it is the chicken's lot in life to provide me with sustenance. I don't question that any more than the lion or the eagle does.
As for PETA, they are out of touch with reality. 

Jock


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Confinement farms are horrific. I had the guts to ask for a tour when I was on a state dept of ag task force trip....CoolJ it is real.

Chickens are debeaked so they won't peck their neighbors...I'm not great with computers but check and see if National Geographic articles on it from a couple of years ago aren't accessable.

Hog farms....pigs are put into small stalls and they get bored and chew on their neighbors, so tails are removed. Their spaces are tiny and dark and on cement. It is a horrible exstense. Many animals are shot up with anibiotics or fed them so that they won't get a disease wiping out the lot of them. 

Turkeys are so inbred that they cannot breed on their own....they also are so immune deficient humans are required to suit up before going into their barn.

*I eat eggs, I eat meat....I just buy as much as I can from farmers that raise animals humanely...let them touch the ground and have suficent space....not automatically fed antibiotics. I buy cage-free, anitbiotic hormone free eggs at the "regular grocery" and pay $2.39 a dz. So about a buck more...
Meat, I buy pork, lamb and some beef from farms I visit...people I know are treating them right. 

I've seen it with my own eyes....I've talked to alot of people that are farming many different ways. PETA is extremist, alot of us that are not members are VERY concerned about the food system. I'm sure several years of my rants are in the archives....


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Shroomgirl, I agree with you. There is a lot of cruelty in the way much of our meat is raised. I applude you for purchasing as much of your animal products from smaller farms that don't practice confinement farming, but I don't think that that is an available option for feeding the masses. I don't believe that we have the land or the resources for all of our meat and dairy products to be produced that way. It also ups the cost of such products considerably. Something I don't think the general public would stand for. Until this country (and I have to include myself in this as I am as guilty as most everyone) decide to change our consumption habits, what is a viable alternative to such farming practices? I am willing to pay more, per pound, for free-range chicken, or yard-kept pork, but I don't think many people feel the same way. The type of farming you are talking about is getting more and more expensive, yet small time farmers can't get the prices they need because of the big corporate, confinement farms, and the prices that they can sell their meat for. And once again, herein lies my big problem with PETA. They are more than happy to point out the errors of our ways, yet, not once, have I ever seen them offer up some sort of solution other than for the world to give up leather, fur, meat, eggs and dairy.


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

I'd guess that the vast majority of people who eat animal products have no earthly idea of how the animals are treated. If asked where chickens come from many would say, the meat counter at Safeway.
And for those who are aware on some level, it becomes a matter of, Out of Sight - Out of Mind.

Jock


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

These concerns do not even touch the problem of the environmental impact of such large factory farms. 
The hog waste lagoons in NC are severely polluting the rivers and estuaries that flow through the coastal areas and into the sounds and oceans. This severly harms marine habitat. All is takes is a heavy rain (remember hurricanes Fran and Floyd?) and the lagoons burst. 
Can you imagine the smell from these lagoons if your property borders one of these farms. Definately enough to put you off your food.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Pete, I think I illuded to the past raves.....our tax dollars are financing in many ways industrial farming....check out the latest farm bill....as FNF said environmental clean up, tax insentives for Japanese industrialists to put up a monstrous barn....It is so much deeper and bigger than just buying from a small local farmer. You are paying in many ways. Many are claiming antibiotics in meats are decreasing resistance and adding new strains of disease to consumers. 
So, consider the environment, our health, tax dollars,foreign countries that are shipping in cheap foods (Argentian meats),
our foods that are warpping the 3rd world.
Many of us believe that sustainable farming is a viable solution to feeding the world. Think of all the food produced, then all the waste. Shoot just check any restaurant to see what is pitched.
I'm kinda foggy tonight, been working on contracts all day and just am not all here, hope this made alittle sense.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

I am in total agreement with you shroom. My point is, that I feel for sustainable agriculture to work, there needs to be a major shift in the consumption habits of the modern, industrial world, and mostly in the US. As for the fact that we are paying in many ways, I understand that, but I wonder if the vast majority of the people do? They don't understand that they pay one way or another, all they see is the price tag at the market.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Well, yes that's true, most people don't think about where their food comes from.
SOOOO what I've done is formed the farmer's market that has "we sell it we raise it" as the motto....1000 people a week get a soft or sometimes blatant propaganda message on what is going on with the food system. Every time I teach, cook in front of people, etc....eating locally and where to access the products comes out of my mouth. In 3 weeks we're having the 5th Farmer/Chef/Seed catalog night.....restaurants connecting with farmers. It's a movement. Amazing what 1 person can start with a big mouth and creative energy. There are many people out there that would follow if they had leaders that espoused local eating. So if inclined go forth and promote fresh food.

Gourmet and Savuer have been REALLY pushing small farmers, farmer's markets are booming! from a few hundred to over 3000 in just a few years. I think Farm Aide was widely acknowledged...to change a system takes time;and mass media helps. Look at all the farmer's market cookbooks that are being published....all the writers that are signing their books at markets.
Slow Food is putting in gardens and making artisinal foods more widely known.


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## culinarian247 (Jan 21, 2002)

While I'm for treating animals with some manner of decency, I don't like PETA's way of coercing the masses to their side. I just think they're too extreme. 



I still think their ideas are a threat to the culinary world because they advocate vegetrianism (is that even a word?). There's nothing wrong with being vegetarian, but those people go waaaay above and beyond converts.


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

I have friends who are vegitarians. I just hate it when they get sanctimonious about it.
Just think, if enough people take up shroom's idea, it will render PETA superfluous  

Jock


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

By protesting just about everything Peta is loosing its credibility.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Funny, and bear with me. I arrived in Berkeley in '74. Everyone looked burnt out to a crisp. You do your thing and I'll do mine. F.O. was the prevalent attitude at the time. What a real disappointment after having attended the Sorbonne during the year previous. What a mistake, too, to have come to Berserkeley. Attending the university was a great experience, however. 

A lot of "Berkeley issues" lost their credibility with me in the mid 70's thru 80's. Most of the protesters who came to Berkeley were east coast transplants who mired in the generous medi cal and food stamp benefits that the state had to offer. They just wanted my $$'s.

And after having attended a Rainbow festival held deep in the Oregon woods in '78, I returned to California just after a few hours, cut my hair, then landed a job with an "establishment type" company awhile later.

Woodstock was great; but, the movement was supplanted by lazy folk and speedfreaks. I know that this is off the wall but ...

Hey man, I have long hair and give me your money cuz I don't wanna' work. Don't bring me a beer, b*tch, rather, roll me another one, dude. And it had better be fat and green. :bounce:


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

Wow, you were in Beserkley???
I wanted to go there, but opted for relocating as far away from my family as possible and ended up at the Berkely of the EC: BU.

More to the point: I went to a nutritionist recently and rattled off a bunch of obscure "meats" for her to dissect for me. When I came to "rabbit" she kind of went "eww" and that's when I knew she didn't really know what she was talking about. And no offense to any nutritionists. 
But really, we all kinda know what to do,what to use, what not to use as far as endangered species, unethical treatment of animals, etc., in our cooking. I left my last potential employer because he said something like," I have no prob killin all the chilean sea bass, another species will come along, everything eventually gets eaten."

We are in the business of cooking, killing, roasting, but that doesn't mean we have to be mean about it. My favorite thing is the Lobster Prayer. I invented it because I read so much about how lobsters scream when they are put into boiling water.

No doubt, many of you have seen The Cook, The Theif,His Wife, and The Lover, etc.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

There are ways to make systemic changes. It's pretty obvious that evanglism in a hard-core distructive way is generally detramental to your cause. There are positive ways to affect change that can be fun to do....it usually entails long term commitment from many.

So what has changed in our town within the last few years in respect to farmers/restaurants/consumers/kids/state govt....
1)several hundred children now know what a sustainable farm is and that there is great food coming out of it. < I'm not sure they would have had this experience without the grants and school/camp programs put into place>

2)12 farmer/chef dinners seating about 80 each time introduced GQ public and chefs to what 12 farmers are raising and then hearing about their growing practices.

3) for over 50 weeks about 1000 people visit a farmers only market and learn to cook locally grown foods.

4) Restaurants are buying from more farmers and advertising it on their menus

5) The farmers I've talked to are expanding their growing seasons and increasing production.

6) Many farmers are seriously considering raising more meat.

***********
Drive through Mo. there are 2 cities on either side and a WHOLE lot of farm land. The fact that the system is whacked out does not mean that it can't be fixed.....it's a process....

I get very riled when I hear about "organic food being too exspensive for the masses" BS....I'm part of a grant to put gardens in yards of habitate for humanity with chicken tractors.
I'm very aware of community gardens, in the future there will be gleaning projects and many more small farmers incorporating animals in their farming....

When you consider volunteering or teaching or doing fundraisers think of supporting "clean food" for lack of a better term. Each of us has an amount of time we donate to community projects, just make sure they espouse what is important to you. my two cents.

oh, yeah I was just asked to be apart of a curriculum change at our local community college hospitality/culinary program....
Soooo the question they want answered is what skills/knowledge should graduates possess that would be helpful for them....I'm going to have a field day answering that one.


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Not against the Humane Society - but definitely tired of the whining. These people single handedly destroyed the fur industry. Of course, this happened right around the time I got interested in a fur coat. To say a cloth or leather coat will keep you as warm as fur can only be spoken by someone who has never worn a fur coat on a frigid day.


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

:lol: 

A fur coat in Florida Chiff!? Shame on you! Where are you, in NORTH Florida?


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Dude! It was *28 degrees* here this morning when I woke up!! 

Seriously, I immediately thought of a friend of mine from cooking school who lived a while in *Buffalo, NY.* Probably one of the few US cities where you can wear a fur coat without fearing any paint-wielding nut - because they're all wearing fur coats.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I have a military issue arctic flight jacket that's rated at -20 below zero. The hood is outlined with a coyote fur ruff that prevents condensation. The temperature around Denver has fallen to -14 on occasion and that jacket really is warm. I LIKE FUR.


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

Hmm,
Well, I think this is a slightly different subject, and I'm not a big fur guy, but I'm not opposed to having the right to wear it. Ridiculous. It's nearly the same as wanting to purchase chicken that is not treated like dirt. There are good producers and bad, in just about everything. It is our responsibility to seek out and utilize the best-case scenario for all involved and I think this can apply to fur-wearers. I have no problem wearing my leather, eating my rotisserie chicken or sleeping under a down comforter. I think it involves a certain amount of hypocrisy to contend that there is a huge difference. Consume in moderation and treat with respect is a very real possibility.I personally want to learn more about all those areas, but have no problem justifying my use and consumption of them in the meantime. A PETA/Vegan world just seems false.
My opinion only


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

Chiff, that's only like 4 degrees Celsius, That's windbreaker weather, (BTW I'm just horsing around with this one)

On another thought, last night, I was out with my friends and we got to talking about the fact that KFC is hiring managers etc...., and my one friend pipes up, and tells us that someone told her that when the chickens are cooked, they're still alive before they go into the oil. That's a little extreme for a rumor, if you ask me !!


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## smokinman (Jan 28, 2003)

I think it is very important to note that to the PETA people, the only "ethical" treatment of animals is to be a vegan, not a vegetarian...as far as my limited nutritional knowledge goes, veganism really can't ever be healthy without an advanced dietetics degree and a very rigidly applied diet, if at all...these people abstain from all dairy products, honey, sugar, eggs, anything that they feel is an "animal product", whether it is cruel or not...also, for a group claiming to endorse the "ethical" treatment of animals they have no consistent stance other than veganism...an ethic is, by definition, a consistent philosophical stance/belief...i have known members who wear leather...try to figure that one out...

by the way...hi all...this is my first post


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

Hey smokinman (like that ), it's a very good point, and that's why fanaticism in any area should be considered suspicious. There is a long-winded history of the philisophical/nutritional/ethical problems with such a stance. 

Again, I believe in the value of becoming a vegan.

I believe in the value of having a balanced diet.

I believe in treating animals, even those that we eat/consume with respect and dignity.

But, I don't have a problem wearing leather shoes, fur underwear, or a feather boa.
I don't have a problem eating a properly prepared rabbit, snake or squirrel. 
I don't have a problem with vegans or anyone else as long as they don't impose their own (very debatable) moral stances upon me.
Right now wild Bison are being killed from Yellowstone Natl. Park in order to preserve them.
I mean, let's take the tree/nature people. I'm sure we can all get behind them to one degree or another, of course we must preserve nature to sustain our own lives, but at what cost? Of course we should question the govts. every step, but does that mean we have to chain ourselves to trees and in fact commit "eco-terrorism?" 
I kinda used to believe in the idea, but now that I've grown up 
, I realize there are many alternate means.
Well, whatever, I've always wanted to come up with an acceptable, responsible means of eating pigeons:chef:


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Lets take this a step further . If you go back in time to the history of the human race one of the main things that helped us to survive and grow was our ability to eat both plants and animals .
We are a species where survival has been learned through millions of years . During the ice age many human cultures were totaly dependant upon animals for survival . The plains indians of the U.S. lived or died on the Bison hunt and its ability to sustain them through the winter . Even now the Eskimos of Alaska live on a mainly high protien diet supplied by there hunting . If PETA had been around before our last ice age then there is a possibility that we would not be around now . I myself never trust the pendulam when it swings to far off center . Remember Jim Jones and his ill fated adventure in Guyana . Just my 2 cents .
P.S. I also took some classes at Beserkly back in 73 , what a time 
it was . Peace love and hippie beads , oh and dont forget that Bobby Sherman loves ya . Doug........................................


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

Good reply, chefboy, I didn't really ever think about that aspect, but you are right. The veg-heads would probably argue something along the lines of they needed the protein more than we do these days, which is true, and they utilized the entire product, and they were more spiritual about it, etc....

As chefs/cooks, I think at least a lot of us tend to be the same way. Minus the protein requirements of today's diet, I think a strong argument can be made that we adhere to the other aspects of responsible cooking. As far as protein goes, I think most American menus overdo it, but again, as responsible creative people, we can even overcome that.

And wow, another Beserkelyn.... what was THAT like?

I'm not sure who Bobby Sherman was, a teen idol? But Rock On!:chef:


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

It looks like my arrival in Berkeley was a year late, 1974. What a bunch of burnouts they were by then.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Bobby Sherman, oh man his poster was on my wall....thought it was more like 71-72....Rock???!!! well that was really not Rock and Roll it was pre-teenage angst and true bubblegum. I went to school in New Orleans but would have loved to been in Berkley during the 70's.

fur underwear and feather boas??? oh man

I have a few vegan friends that actually are chefs and one is a RD chef....there are gradations....I think they consume honey and a few eggs in things but no critters. Loads of tempeh and tofu/edamome....tons of various grains. Pretty physically active too. None of them espouse PETA or actually go to vegetarian meetings (too agressive I've been told). So there are some that don't fit the mold you've come up with.....
I've turned away vegetarian groups from the market just because they are very outspoken about eating meat....it is a choice one makes and there are ways to express yourself without being didactic...


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Shroongirl: 'twas the 60's when Boiklee was really happening, not the decade following.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Koko-
Berkeley is _always_ happening. Been there recently?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

F&F:

Allow me to vent and be really blunt.

I agree with what you're implying. From '74 to the early 80's, Berkeley was burnout central. Then things started happening around '84. Out with the hippie, in with the yuppie (in 25 words or less). Yes, I really prefered in in the late 80's in the east bay but I'm glad I moved away. The midwest holds more allure to me than ever.

Although I traveled and lived all over the world including North Africa, I always felt that in Berkeley what was considered the lowest form of life was a white male. Reverse racism reigned supreme. But as for me, I threw it right back in their face - in the face of blacks, jews, asians and whatever. I have all the comebacks. That's what living in the east bay taught me.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Hey Kokopuffs , it has not changed . The east bay attitude is nothing but stronger now . It did change for me a little though as about 5 years ago I was reading an article in people magazine which was about my old proffessor John Dobson who taught physics , astronomy and for an evening class taught telescope building . He was 82 years old in the article and he was still doing the same things that I loved him for , teaching knowledge to whoever wanted to learn . He never cared about a person except that they had a hunger for knowledge and he kept it up . 
Remember its people , not places , that make the adventure so good . Peace to all , Doug............................


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Chefboy:

Yes, the eastbay is culturally rich and I loved using the libraries at UC Berkeley, especially the music library where I could actually handle Diderot's Encyclopedia published in the 1700's. And the restaurants, especially the hole-in-the-walls, were second to none.

Also I worked at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories and often sat down the table from Glen Seaborg who added several elements to the Periodic Table.


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