# Best way to sharpen my knives



## idahokosher (Mar 19, 2013)

I recently bought a set of Victorinox Forschner knives. I have some meat, dairy, and pareve (neutral) knives due to keeping a kosher kitchen. I think that I probably need three separate knife sharpeners for the three kinds of knife, which sharply limits the amount of money I can spend. Ultimately I am looking for something practical. In the long run (1-2 years) I may be looking at more expensive Japanese stainless or European carbon steel knives, but for the short term I am just trying to keep these knives sharp. I don't know how to sharpen anything but I am willing to learn whatever is going to be the best system for the long term. What is the best value for money for sharpening these not particularly expensive knives, keeping in mind I am going to have to pay for three systems? Note that I have only one small dairy knife and one large meat knife which are used infrequently and a couple pareve knives that are used a lot, so I may be willing to consider a somewhat more expensive system for the pareve knives. The knives are unlikely to always be used in the ideal fashion; my flatmate has been a bit slow to grasp how I want the kitchenware treated (not leaving wood soaking in water, not always cleaning and drying knives when he's done cooking, not to mention that I haven't seen how he cuts things). They may also occasionally be used by people who are helping me cook for Hillel, although it's probably more efficient for me to chop the vegetables anyway in most cases. (I also need a honing steel, but I don't need to start a forum post to ask which one to get).


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

On all of my 'european' knives and depending on where I begin (bevel or touch-up), I use oil stones ranging from coase silicone carbide to a very very fine surgical black.

Conduct a search on sharpening in this forum for further information on sharpening.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

I don't profess to know much about the Kosher rules but I read how utensils can be koshered by boiling.

Oilstones either the India or Arkansas can be boiled and as long as you have no thermal shock, let them heat and cool slowly, there will be unharmed.

I have a Norton IB8 I found boiling right now to clean the gunk out.

Steve Bottorff had a bit on Kosher sharpening.

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/kosher.htm

Jim


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

The first thing here is for you to keep kosher. And for that, this goy is definitely going to advise you to seek out your rabbi for advice, and, if you are not orthodox, to ask your rabbi about whether the two of you should also consult one of the kosher certification organizations (especially if you have orthodox relatives or if you are going to be serving orthodox guests). It would probably be a good idea if you also wrote down all the considerations for keeping kosher, laminated the notes and kept them handy in your kitchen. As someone who grew up in a community with a strong Jewish presence, I've learned enough to realize that I'm definitely not a person to advise you how to keep kosher, but I figure your rabbi should know the essential Laws or be able to seek them out and properly advise you.

Whether you need to duplicate your equipment is definitely a consideration you should discuss with your rabbi. If so, you might talk with the rabbi and some other members of your congregation (and maybe with members of other congregations) about working out a congregation-wide or intercongregation sharpening service or process. That would definitely be a mitzvah, especially for those who don't think about keeping knives sharp as a safety factor.

I am also going to give you what's turning out to be my stock, standard first-time knife and knife sharpening advice. Go to your local library and look for and read a particular book - An Edge In The Kitchen by Chad Ward. If your local library does not have it, then they very likely will be able to order it up through an inter-library loan system. Chad Ward will walk you through the process and the tricks of the trade on how to sharpen your knives, whether by stones or by guided systems (such as the Edge Pro Apex). The book was published in 2008, so the prices now seem quaint, but the advice is still rock-solid and sound. Otherwise, the book is still available through Amazon, and also available through such web sites as Alibris and/or Abebooks. Prices run from about $20 through about $25.

The first bit of equipment, even before any other sharpening stones or systems, should be a good ceramic hone. Save yourself future aggravation and buy a 12" Idahone ceramic hone (or maybe 3?). The price is $30 each at Chef Knives To Go. A hone doesn't sharpen your knives - to do that, you need to remove metal = but instead instead re-aligns the microscopic edge of your knife, straightening out where the edge has been pushed over and significantly increases the amount of time between sharpenings. I specifically called out the 12 inch size, since you will probably find yourself wanting longer and longer knives (sigh - we've all gone down that path), so getting the longest hone right off will save you aggravation in the long run. And I am advising to get a smooth ceramic rod - with a coarse, steel honing rod, you can do a tremendous amount of damage to your knives' edges before you realize what's happened.

Since you purchased Victorinox/Forschners and you certainly sounded concerned about cost, I'll start with a simple basic stone which has served restaurants the world over, but probably gets less respect than it deserves as a basic stone - The Norton India Combination Stone, 2" x 8", with both coarse and fine sides. The cost is under $30. The abrasive used is aluminum oxide. Save yourself the cost of keeping it oiled (I realize Kokopuffs uses oil - and buys mineral oil by the gallon), but soaking the stone in plain old water for 30 minutes before using it will also work, and will save you the cost of buying oil. Then, after you have consulted with your rabbi about whether you need duplication, you have read Chad Ward about sharpening, and you have watched Jon Broida's videos about sharpening at the Japanese Knife Importing web site, have at it and try your hand at sharpening.

Mind you - the Norton India stone is pretty basic - and pretty rough, compared to the finer stones you will be hearing about from others. And I would want some better stones before I allowed anything better than a Forschner near to it (Heaven forbid that I use a Japanese knife on a Norton India stone).

This is all introductory. As you develop your skills, you will find yourself appreciating better stones, or gravitating to a guided sharpening system, such as the Edge Pro Apex, or the Wicked Edge systems. But all of that should be in the future.

Galley Swiller


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

IMHO the best supplier of arkansas and fine black surgical stones is HALL'S PRO EDGE.

For Nortons,  carbide and indias, it would be SHARPENING SUPPLIES dot com.

And for honing oil you can pick up a gallon of mineral oil for less than $15 at a tack and feed store.  It's no different than 'honing' oil afaik sold by the knife companies.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Galley Swiller*
> 
> I'll start with a simple basic stone which has served restaurants the world over, but probably gets less respect than it deserves as a basic stone - The Norton India Combination Stone, 2" x 8", with both coarse and fine sides. The cost is under $30. The abrasive used is aluminum oxide.
> 
> ...


The IB8 combo you refer to does get respect from oilstone users. It fits the niche of coarse/very coarse and is used prior to Arkansas stones, but you know that.

With many folks going with J knives waterstones are all the rage but oils are cheaper, last for damn near forever, nearly no fuss, and produce as good a durable edge as possible on non J knives. They are slower though.

A Norton IB8 is my desert island stone.

Jim


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

If you're gonna' get a stone for sharpening chef's knives, make sure it's 11 inches in length like these ones or *this setup*. The stone's longer length allows for a nicer stroke to sharpen correctly. Do yourself a favor: treat yourself! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rollsmile.gif


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## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

Just wanted to point out that edge pro stones are quite inexpensive...therefore if you intend to have three sets of each grit stone, the overall price starts to become more attractive.  Just know that you can't effectively thin you knives behind the edge with an edge pro...


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

It's not simply that the stones are not all that expensive - it's whether Kosher laws as interpreted through the Talmudic tradition require separation to be extended to the point of 3 separate Edge Pro Apex systems.

The primary cost in the Edge Pro systems is in the stand and controls, not in the stones. That makes a triple stand setup very, very expensive - at $165 minimum per system, that would be an initial cost of at least $495!!

Galley Swiller


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Does anyone have any feedback concerning the Norton waterstones that I just noticed for the first time at *this advertisement*?


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## idahokosher (Mar 19, 2013)

Wow, thank you for all your replies! I haven't asked a rabbi about the specifics but I'm pretty sure I can use the same stand with different stones if I want something like the edge pro. As far as kashrut goes taste is considered to be transferred when something is hot and wet. I'd be somewhat concerned that the friction of the knife against the stone might generate some highly localized heat, which is why you might (or might not, I still need to ask) need different stones for meat and dairy, but I assume nothing else is going to get hot, although I'll definitely call up the Star-K and ask before buying my stones in triplicate. If the kashrut concern exists at all I doubt the stones can be kashered but it might be possible. So if it is possible that I could get a system like the edge pro with different stones it could be interesting. I need to do more reading as I really don't know what these different stones are.

A few questions:

If I buy oilstones now will that be a substantially different technique than if I get Japanese knives in the future and use waterstones? And what kind of differences might there be between them for the knives I'm using now? What are the pros and cons of just buying bench stones versus buying a system like the edge pro? And what kind of grits do I need for sharpening the steel these knives are made of?

Kartman35: When you say you can't effectively thin the knives behind the edge with edge pro, what does that mean for me practically? I don't know about sharpening knives so I don't know why I would want to do that or what would happen if I can't.

Thanks so much, again!


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

IdahoKosher said:


> A few questions:
> 
> If I buy oilstones now will that be a substantially different technique than if I get Japanese knives in the future and use waterstones? And what kind of differences might there be between them for the knives I'm using now? What are the pros and cons of just buying bench stones versus buying a system like the edge pro? And what kind of grits do I need for sharpening the steel these knives are made of?


Forschners are fine with Arkansas and India stones. They don't really have grits but people will refer to the edge result and compare to the edge from certain grit waterstones. India stones are rated coarse to fine and Arkansas are soft, hard, black, and translucent going coarser to finer.

Waterstones can be used on any knife but are needed for J knives. Oils suffice for westerns and are not harmed by using waterstones but going over 3K is pretty pointless on a western knife. Oils are far cheaper than waterstones.

Imagine an inverted V which is your 50/50 bevel knife edge. once it gets damaged a new V must be formed. Keeping it real simple that act doesn't change much regardless of abrasive used. Using oil vs waterstones vs machine vs sandpaper vs loose grit are all different methods and have their quirks but what you look for to know it is time to stop isn't different.

Pretty simplified but that is the basics.

Jim


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## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

Jon explains thinning behind the edge better than I ever could so watch this






and this






The reason an edge pro won't work is that you can't get as low of an angle as would be required to thin knives.

Hope that helps

Also, japanese water stones are kept wet enough to not get hot while sharpening....not sure if that's relevevant, just saying.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

While the overall knife blade and stone will not heat up (think conductivity), it's highly probable that the you would be generating at least some (highly localized at the microscopic level) heat when you are sharpening the edges (or thinning the blades, whatever the case) using stones, whether bench stones, such as the Nortons, or mounted polishing stones, such as the Edge Pro's. But if it's okay by your rabbi or the Star-K rabbi to switch stones on the stand and use the same stand (keeping track of which stones are for meat knives, which are for dairy knives, which are for pareve knives), that will cut your costs tremendously by not requiring two extra complete Edge Pro Apex systems.

It also just occurred to me that you might want to bring up with either your rabbi or the Star-K people a query about general household (non-kitchen) knives. Should they be sharpened with pareve knives, or should they have their own sharpening stones?

If you go the Edge Pro route, you will find the stones (1/8" to 1/4" thickness x 1" width x 6" length) are mounted by glue on aluminum blanks. You might want to check with Star-K to ensure they are also within Kosher laws. The stones are artificial materials (the coarser grit stones are silicon carbide and the higher grit, finer stones are aluminum oxide), the aluminum blanks are just cut from extruded 1" x 1/8" aluminum bar stock and the mounting glue is 3M "Scotch" brand Super 77 spray adhesive.

Also, if you go the Edge Pro route, you should have a way to easily identify which type of knives can be used with that stone. Many first time Apex users just use a marking pen, thinking that will work. Sorry, but marking pen ink (even "permanent" ink) comes off aluminum bar stock all too easily. I would suggest you buy an electric engraving pen and, before using a mounted stone for the first time on a knife edge, engrave which type of knives can be used with that stone. I would also engrave what grit the stone is. Since the engraver should be used on the stone mountings before they ever get used on the edge of any knife, I suspect that you probably only need one engraving pen if you restrict the engraving pen to "virgin" mounted stones that have never touched a knife's edge (but you might want to check with Star-K beforehand).

The rest of this is boilerplate knife-sharpening advice.

As far as the difference between waterstones and oilstones - there's no difference in the way you hold the knife relative to a stone, or on the Edge Pro. The differences have to do with how they are lubricated. Think of it as a three-way-system.

There are oilstones which you have initially oiled. And once (just once is enough) a stone is oiled, it will be extremely difficult to use with anything other than oil. From that point on, you will be committed to using oil on that stone. To use the stone as a waterstone means that you will have to go through a royal PITA, with no guarantee that the stone can be ridded of its residual oil. So, the general process goes, once oiled, always afterwards oiled.

Then there are stones labelled as "oilstones" which have never been oiled, but have used water as their lubricant. As long as water continues to be their only lubricant, it's fine to consider them as "waterstones". What treatment they need prior to being used is simple - put them into water and leave them to soak (30 minutes to an hour) before you start using them. If you want to switch later to using them as oil lubricant stones, let them dry out full first (simple enough - just leave them out for a few days to fully air-dry.

dry out)

Stones which are labelled as "waterstones" should never, NEVER, NEVER, *NEVER*_* BE USED WITH OIL!!!!*_ The oil will dissolve the binding used to hold the stone together. Japanese waterstones are to be used with water ONLY.

Stones which are labelled as "waterstones" have different types of application of water prior to use. Some stones need to be soaked. Some stones just need a "splash" of water. It's really dependent on the particular stone.

ALL waterstones need water as a lubricant (including oil-dry oilstones used as waterstones). And ALL waterstones should be stored dry or to dry out between sharpening sessions.

There is vigorous debate amongst freehand sharpening enthusiasts about the alleged virtues and faults of the various stones, but the above is the principal difference in how to treat your stones. And there is no difference whatsoever in how you hold your knife or how you run the stroke of your knife when you are sharpening.

Kartman35 is mostly correct about using the Edge Pro for thinning a blade behind the edge, but for a different reason than he used.. You can use a shim on the stand to effectively lower the angle of the blade. The real reason that the Edge Pro is not as effective as a bench stone system in thinning is that the Edge Pro uses comparatively much smaller stones. Compare the sizes of the Edge Pro stones (6" x 1" x 1/4") to the Norton Combination India stone (8" x 2" x 1"). The Norton has a surface area 2-2/3rds times larger than the Edge Pro and the comparable volume for each grit of the Norton is 5-1/3rd times larger per grit than the Edge Pro. It's one thing to sharpen the edge of a knife - you are removing a microscopic amount of metal. Thinning a blade removes a comparatively huge amount of metal, since you are removing a major part of the entire thickness of the blade. You can thin a blade using an Edge Pro - but the much more effective tool is to use is a much larger stone. Personally, I would use a very coarse bench stone for the bulk removal of stock from the surface plane of the blade. Then I would use the Edge Pro with successively finer grits to smooth the surface of the blade.

However, if you use a honing rod effectively between sharpening, and you don't over-use your sharpening stones (some people compulsively sharpen their knives!), there will be almost microscopic wear on your knife and there will not need to be any thinning of the blade for decades. Mind you - that doesn't necessarily apply either to knives which have sharpening abuse or to knifes used for hours per day (and a subsequently higher sharpening frequency) by a pro cook or chef.

Galley Swiller


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## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)




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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Our resident knife expert seems to be busy finishing his book, but I'll try to glean some from that wisdom:

You don't need an Edge Pro
A rather unfortunate design flaw, that would have been easy to correct in the original protoype,limits it to angles greater than 12deg. That dosen't matter to you really, but you don't need this contraption for what you have going on.

I think we've established that one set of stones will do, at least if they are water stones.

You have sets of knives to sharpen, that will be somewhat abused by non-pro volunteer help, who will not be able to take much advantage of a highly refined edge.

Given the above, you only need a 2-stone system - a course for minor repairs and thinning; and a 2k stone for finishing would be very adequate (many pros do not go finer than this).

You can easily justify the price of high-end stones, that cut much faster and tend to last longer - many, many, many times longer than the stones that come with the EP in prticular. So here I would recomend the Geshin 400k and 2000k, from Japanese Knife imports. There are others but this is what I would pick in the price range which will be under $200 shipped.

Instead of the EP, cut an 18-20deg angle out of cardboard or 1/32 plywood and use this for your guide by sticking it under the knife to get a good visual of the angle you will be holding. 18-20deg, give or take a couple, will work fine for your needs so, again, you don't need an EP, just review some sharpening videos and info already mentioned, lots of info already posted on this site.

I think you already know, a 12" Idahone fine to touch up between sharpenings.
I feel this is a fine and very tenable and easily duplicated system for your needs, hope this helps.

Rick


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

Rick Alan said:


> I think we've established that one set of stones will do, at least if they are water stones.
> Rick


One set may not cut it due to the fact she is trying to keep everything kosher.

There are very stringent rules with regard to keeping dairy, neutral, and meat utensils separate.

Weather this carries over to the stones used to sharpen knives is the big question and she may need 3 rigs.

Granted the Gesshin 400/2K would rock for the main vegetable knife sharpening but for the meat and dairy I'd go with knives that could be done on cheaper oilstones.

Jim


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

KnifeSavers said:


> One set may not cut it due to the fact she is trying to keep everything kosher.
> 
> There are very stringent rules with regard to keeping dairy, neutral, and meat utensils separate.
> 
> ...


India and carbide stones are sure cheap enough if other sets were needed, and the Latte 400 and Beston 500 stones from CKG are a good bit less than the Geshin 400 ... and, of course I meant 400 and 2K, not 400k and 2000k, dohh!

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

I have to emphatically agree with KnifeSavers on the issue of whether the OP can get by on one set of stones or needs duplication.

The OP first and foremost needs to keep Kosher and within Kashrut (the Jewish dietary laws).  Whether that means that one sharpening set is sufficient or more are needed is something that we gentiles should be leaving up to either the OP or to the OP's chosen Jewish advisers, be it a Rabbi or the OP's stated chosen advisory board, the Star-K organization.  The most we can do is try to frame our answers so as to give the OP and the OP's Kosher advisers the most accurate information within our knowledge as to what happens when a knife is sharpened.  We gentiles ("*****") definitely have no place in deciding what Jewish dietary laws are.  We must leave that to the OP, a Rabbi or the Star-K organization.

Whether heat is produced seems to be a major part of the issue here.  The question might hinge on whether it requires the ability to be noticed by a human hand, or whether or not any specific heat created momentarily at microscopic sites which rises above the specified temperature would be sufficient, regardless of conductivity of the knife's steel and the adjoining lubricating liquid.  

Sharpening a knife against a stone involves rubbing of steel against stone particles.  This wear can and does involve some heat (witness the creation of and chasing the edge bead).  However, in modern forms of sharpening with all stones, whether natural or artificial, lubricants are used to keep the stone clean and to aid the sharpening process.  The combined lubricating liquid and the microscopic removed bits of steel and stone are referred to as "swarf"  The result is that conductivity kicks in here and, almost as soon as any heat is created, it is conducted away from the knife edge by both the swarf and by the blade's steel (this is a simplification to most sharpeners, and pretty elementary, but I think it is necessary to describe here, so that the OP or a Rabbi or the Star-K organization will have enough information to make a good faith judgement on what is involved from this posting).

Are temperatures raised above 120 degrees?  Probably - after all, steel is being run along abrasive materials and it is enough to form a bead, which would imply at least some melting of the steel.

Is it enough to be noticeable to the human hand?  Not necessarily - the bead formation concentrates and takes some of the energy, the steel blade conducts some of the energy from the micro area of the edge to the much larger steel blade and the liquified swarf also conducts heat to a larger volume and surface area.

I may be belaboring the point, but the decision needs to go to those who are knowledgeable about Kashrut.  I'm not expert - and if only to find an answer that we can refer others to, I hope we do have a reply.

Galley Swiller


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Alright lets look at things from the perspective of the hard sciences, which tell us that in fact there is no such thing as "Kosher Clean." In a Kitchen especially absolutely everything is contaminated by airborne particles and actual hand contact. No amount of cleanliness that can be instituted will change this.

So right here and now let's establish the fact that we cannot achieve the "Letter of the Law" but, as a fellow Levi and historical figure once put it in so many words, The Spirit of the Law above the letter of the law" (lower case intended). It is the Spirit that lives and rings True, and obviously not its temporal letter representation. In this case that means doing the best that is humanly possible, ie, a "ritual" use of separate knives and a conscientious "ritual" washing.

Now as to the issue of temperature, and keeping in mind the Spirit of the Law, we have room and water temp of about 70deg, plus the constant evaporation of water contributing a relatively great deal of refrigeration. So, without some seriously athletic (read insanity-level) sharpening going on, the knives will never see a measurable temp of 120degF (though accidentally dropping a knife on an unavoidably contaminated hard surface will definitely excite some surface molecules to 120+, and there again goes your Kosher by LL standards). Given the statement cited in the authoritative article, I will argue this with any Rabbi, even if he be from the tribe of Cohen.

It is the Spirit only that lives, not the letter.

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Peace, Rick

As a gentile, my concerns are to try to follow the words and spirit expressed in the very first part of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm....".

The history of the relationship between the Jewish faithful and the vast bulk of the rest of humanity is a painful one for the minority.  The horrors of this past century are especially felt and have hit close to home.  Many of the friends I grew up with lost relatives to the Holocaust.

Ignorance by the gentile majority about Judaism is appalling.  And it is often accompanied by an incomprehension of even a basic knowledge of history.

So when advice is sought by someone (the OP) who is trying to stay within Kashrut, then it is necessary to both acknowledge gentile ignorance and to try to steer discussion towards doing several things.  First, the discussions on these boards are free and open - and can serve as an educational tool to at least try to acclimatize the viewers to issues involved.  And, second, there is a need to acknowledge our (gentile) limitations on the interpretations of Jewish laws - which is why I have been so insistent on the potential bringing in of Rabbinical advice to the OP.

It is the OP who will need to be comfortable with the consequences.  All I can do is to try to provide what limited information I have and to try to put it into such perspective as to "...do no harm...".

Galley Swiller


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## kartman35 (Jan 12, 2013)

Another thing to consider is what would happen to Victorinox knives if they were to be immersed in boiling water.  According to the Star-K website metal cooking utensils can be washed, rested for 24 hours and then boiled in water for 15 seconds then rinsed in cold water to render them kosher.  If our OPs Rabbi agrees with this, than any stone could certainly be used so long as the knives are treated as above.

Anyone know what happens to X50CrMoV15 steel when boiled?  Is the heat treat affected by 212 degrees F?  Will the handles hold up?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Galley Swiller said:


> Peace, Rick
> 
> As a gentile, my concerns are to try to follow the words and spirit expressed in the very first part of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm....".
> 
> ...


You have to speak for yourself here GS as I am not a gentile, as my allusion to being of the Tribe of Levi clearly indicated. I don't feel any feathers have been ruffled, nor was that the intention, which was simply to elucidate the Spirit of the Law.

As for boiling temperatures Kartman, Rosewood can do without too much of that but the nsf handle Vics can be had with will take it. Some alloys will loose a slight bit of temper at boiling temps, though not so much as to need getting overly worked up about in a Kosher kitchen, I don't think X50 is one of those alloys anyway.

Rick


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## sarah-b (Oct 3, 2013)

Sharpening is different from honing, which I think you know as you alluded to honing at the end of your post.  Honing is something that would be carried out at every use of the knife - before and after use, but particularly after.  Then depending on the amount of use your knives get, sharpening only needs to be done once or twice a year.

If you were to buy a honing steel made of ceramic or diamond coated then they would sharpen the knife unlike the standard sharpening steels (why do they even call them sharpening?!) that only hone.

- all Wusthof - but can obviously be used with any knife brand.

I hadn't thought of the issue of Kosher kitchens before, what have you decided to do?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Sarah-B said:


> Sharpening is different from honing, which I think you know as you alluded to honing at the end of your post. Honing is something that would be carried out at every use of the knife - before and after use, but particularly after. Then depending on the amount of use your knives get, sharpening only needs to be done once or twice a year.
> 
> If you were to buy a honing steel made of ceramic or diamond coated then they would sharpen the knife unlike the standard sharpening steels (why do they even call them sharpening?!) that only hone.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering what the OP has decided myself.

Given the use and abuse those knives will see the OP will be sharpening more than once or twice a year. BTW, diamond hones are not good for your knife, stick to fine ceramic.

Rick


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## dhmcardoso (Apr 29, 2013)

Kartman35 said:


> Another thing to consider is what would happen to Victorinox knives if they were to be immersed in boiling water. According to the Star-K website metal cooking utensils can be washed, rested for 24 hours and then boiled in water for 15 seconds then rinsed in cold water to render them kosher. If our OPs Rabbi agrees with this, than any stone could certainly be used so long as the knives are treated as above.
> 
> Anyone know what happens to X50CrMoV15 steel when boiled? Is the heat treat affected by 212 degrees F? Will the handles hold up?


Kartman. No problem at all. Just try not to reach 1400ºF or to let it rest over 400ºF

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Daniel is right.  Metalurgically, putting X50CrMoV15 steel in boiling water won't affect the knife metal in any significant way.  The boiling action limits the temperature of the liquid water to no higher temperature than the boiling point.

In order to affect the steel, it has to be raised above the tempering point (which is probably above 400 degrees F) and held there for at least 30 minutes to an hour or more.  On a knife which had already gone through heat treatment, that would normally only be done if a bladesmith was straightening a bent or twisted blade.  1400 degrees F refers to the annealing temperature point, which is the point where the metalic grain structure breaks down.

Galley Swiller


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## dhmcardoso (Apr 29, 2013)

Another Engineer in the room? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

don't know if Galley Swiller is an engineer or other - but his facts are straight.

metals do certain things at certain temperatures.  boiling water (aka 212'F / 100'C) is not one of those temperatures.

"heat treating" a metal involves bringing it to a high temperature and then cooling the metal at a controlled rate.  depending on the metal/alloy/inclusions/pure state/etc/etc/and things way over most peoples' head.... the cooling phases affects how the metal "crystallizes" and how various atoms within the "metal" react.  there is zilch comma zero question that "heat treatment" drastically how a metal will perform, and in this case, "as a knife"

should you encounter some company espousing the superior degrees of metallic "....ites" (various apply) - RUN - they're so full of BS you'll never get to anything of "truth"

"tempering" a metal involves bringing the metal to a high enough heat that it "relaxes" and allows any internal built up "stresses" to dissipate.   there are a lot of "words" that get associated with "tempering" - annealing / lehring / etc.  "engineers" recognize that these are all pseudo-terms for the same physical process / thing.

marketeers otoh depend on the general public being w-o-w-e-d by big words / terminology - basically "if I can't baffle you with brilliance, let me at least befuddle you with bullsh*t."

a "knife" has to be hard enough to take and keep a good edge, and "soft" / "flexible" enough to not snap in half when you use it.

discounting the "BUT WAIT!  THERE'S MORE!" 2-3 AM tv hucksters, all those pesky "top name" companies have figured this stuff out.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

We're running far afield of the OP but just for the sake of accuracy I'll correct myself.  I thought I had heard that boiling temperatures could ruin the benefit of crygenic heat treatment but this is not true.  CT is used to break down any austenite formations left after quenching, it breaks the austenites down to the desired martensite structures.  Once done it would take high heat to change things.

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Daniel - sorry to disappoint you - but I can't claim to be an engineer - I'm just a (retired) former title examiner.  My former job did require me to look up esoteric information, and required me to be able to write up a summary which could be followed by others.  It also required a significant level of accuracy, with dire consequences if I failed at it.  I did work with civil engineers on an extremely frequent basis - so mebbe that's how things rubbed off onto me.  And that's all I will want to claim.

Dillbert, I share your skepticism about marketeering - but I think it's more important to be able to recognize and point out the BS and move around it, rather than run screaming from it.  Clarifications, corrections and mutually educating each other is what these forums should be about.  If we do it right, we can at least counter some of the BS.

As for heat treatment, that is a critical point of difference between the various manufacturers and bladesmiths.  But it shouldn't be much of a mystery as to the general process, either.  It's just 3 parts: annealing, quenching and tempering.  And since each manufacturer/bladesmith does it differently ("trade secrets"), that's one of the comparative points which keeps forums like this alive with people like us constantly comparing and criticizing the end products.

...nuff said

Galley Swiller


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

I am an engineer.  in fact, a civil engineer - but spent the majority of my career in "process control"

secondary metal processing.  cutting/turning tube / forged blanks to shape; heat treating, annealing, grind, polish and finish.

I'd wager there's not more than 2 members on this board, if that, who can define the difference between austinite, martensite, and googlesite.

that's why when one encounters the huckster vendor telling the crowd that: ". . . and everyone knows higher martensite makes a better knife" it's time to run - liar liar tent on fire.  nothing but a high-commission parrot on display.....no idea/clue what he's talking about, just gets the crowd nodding "yes, yes" and an able assistant to collect credit card info.

fwiw, the various steels used in knife making require different approaches to heat treat...and following process.  and even if using the identical steel - rare in the knife business - can be "treated" with more than one single set of "time&temperature" parameters and achieve, in the end, an "equal" result - even if a scanning electron microscope (required) finds steel X with more dddd...ite than steel Y.  and, making life even more interesting, I have never ever seen any published engineering standard that establishes X-ite this or Y-ite that or X% vs Y% is needed for "the best (which is undefinable, anyway) knife"

life does not fit into a 140 character Tweet.  bit more to it than that.

bottom line:  99.999% of the huckster's techie stuff your never heard of are absolute BS - knives and "waterless cookware" being the most popular topics.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Dillbert said:


> fwiw, the various steels used in knife making require different approaches to heat treat...and following process. and even if using the identical steel - rare in the knife business - can be "treated" with more than one single set of "time&temperature" parameters and achieve, in the end, an "equal" result - even if a scanning electron microscope (required) finds steel X with more dddd...ite than steel Y. and, making life even more interesting, I have never ever seen any published engineering standard that establishes X-ite this or Y-ite that or X% vs Y% is needed for "the best (which is undefinable, anyway) knife"
> 
> life does not fit into a 140 character Tweet. bit more to it than that.
> 
> bottom line:  99.999% of the huckster's techie stuff your never heard of are absolute BS - knives and "waterless cookware" being the most popular topics.


Ahaha, you must have heard some of Bob Cramer's hype in particular. My field is engineering machine design, obviously not that familiar with heat treatment though. Not meaning to go OT again, but there are areas where specific heat treatment is critical, it took decades for other companies to duplicate Johannson's stress releiving procedure in the making of precision gauge blocks.

As a creative designer I have learned not to discount any possibilities untill having done adequate research, even purely faith-based beliefs can have validity.

Rick


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>Bob Cramer . . .

not really - I'm not "into" knives except to keep mine sharp.  my own experience with heat treat was on an industrial scale - thousands of pcs at a clip - much thicker section than a knife.  furnaces the size of small houses.....annealing ovens 300 ft long.... the assignment was to develop and document - then 'control' all the 'details' of how that equipment was operated so every piece from first to last had "identical" structure - a slightly different world than custom knife making.

I recall a TV (PBS?) show about "master craftsmen" - and if I remember right it was Bob Cramer.  I rather suspect every custom knife maker has their own preferences -

making knives one at a time like that certainly involves a lot of experience to avoid producing a boo-boo. 

my job was to get the process so well under control that producing a 'perfect' batch every time was merely ". . . and then push the green button."


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I've found that a lot of these knife discussions especially concerning the asian stuff are totally overwhelming and choose not to read them much. They come across like an infomercial. Hmmmm. And I'll go elsewhere to split hairs. Still, though, I love my Sabatiers! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

idaho kosher,
here is a quick and easy way to keep your knives sharp. the investment is low. you use silicon carbide sandpaper and a mouse pad or piece of sorta soft foam rubber. here is a better explanation of how to do it: http://zknives.com/knives/articles/sandpapermousepad.shtml
the ideal here is what touches your knife blade is thrown away when you are done, so you should not have any issues with Kosher Law. you should be able to get a basic kit together for $25 or so.
the sandpaper is available in grits to 2000, more than fine enough for any knife. you can find it on ebay or any industrial or auto body supply site.(the finer grits are used between coats of paint or varnish).
hope this is helpful,
the old sailor


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Scott Livesey said:


> idaho kosher,
> here is a quick and easy way to keep your knives sharp. the investment is low. you use silicon carbide sandpaper and a mouse pad or piece of sorta soft foam rubber. here is a better explanation of how to do it: http://zknives.com/knives/articles/sandpapermousepad.shtml
> the ideal here is what touches your knife blade is thrown away when you are done, so you should not have any issues with Kosher Law. you should be able to get a basic kit together for $25 or so.
> the sandpaper is available in grits to 2000, more than fine enough for any knife. you can find it on ebay or any industrial or auto body supply site.(the finer grits are used between coats of paint or varnish).
> ...


Once finished using my oilstones, I followed the procedure listed above using wet-or-dry (aka carbide) sandpaper and achieved about the best edge I ever got. And it was thanks to the local automobile body shop that provided me with a variety of wet-or-dry papers.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> In my experience sharpening with sandpaper is great as long as you're dealing with basic carbon steel. Expect serious burr / wire edge issues when you do this with stainless.
> With basic carbon the burr will fall off when you go to a higher grit and reduce pressure. With stainless, whenever it falls off, it leaves a damaged edge. With a lot of stainless, it will never fall off, and has to get abraded away. That requires a much more precise movement than I can perform on sandpaper, and I do need the response of the stone in feeling and noise to know how far I am.


Well that's helpful to know, which gives some justification to keeping this thread going, but as to the OP:

The need for separate sharpeners is not even a moot point, the article cited early on is very clear that separate sharpeners are not needed if they are drenched in water during use:

"Is there a kashrus issue in taking knives to be sharpened to a sharpener, knowing that the sharpener also sharpens non kosher knives? In our experience, the knife sharpeners are constantly bathed in water so they do not get hot. Therefore, as long as the sharpener is clean, it is permitted to sharpen on a sharpener that is also used for non-kosher knives. (Butchers sometimes subscribe to a knife-sharpening service. The butcher must ensure he is getting back his own knives after sharpening.)
Can one use the same knife sharpener for meat and dairy knives? If the sharpener gets hot (more than 120F) during sharpening, one should use separate sharpeners. If the sharpener does not get hot, then one can use the same one for meat and dairy. The knife should be washed in cool water before and after sharpening and the sharpener should be rinsed in cool water after use.
Copyright [emoji]169[/emoji] 2009 Star-K Kosher Certification."

I pointed this out way back and gave further evidence of why it is sound according to the certifications guidelines. Interesting we haven't heard from the OP in a while, but in all fairness it took me 2 months to follow up on my "Why isn't it Mayo" post. ;-)~

And actually to regular water stones already mentioned we can add much more expensive powered wet-grinders, and also the $70 takes-no-skill MinoSharp, which even Boar d Laze found adequate enough to buy for a not-into-hand-sharpening family member:

Rick


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Sandpaper works great on carbon steel.  When it comes to stainless, jettison that stuff.


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## simar (Oct 17, 2013)

actually on the vein of using sand paper, there is an addition to using sandpaper that works really well and involves nothing more than stropping motion.  Its a 3M product call Trizact, and it comes in 3x9 sheets.  I have used A5 and A3 after 2500 grit sand paper good success before heading to a balsa strop with CrO.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> And how do you deal with burrs? That's my problem with sandpaper, when dealing with other than very basic carbon stuff.


Actually I don't see why sandpaper should pose trouble in burr removal, unless its made of a relatively soft abrasive or perhaps the way it is glued down. Trizact is silicon carbide held in film of resin and should cut fairly aggressively. 3M also makes an aluminum oxide impregnated mylar in something like 12x12" sheets that when stuck to a hard backing, like a granite surface plate, and used wet, it can be used much like any sharpening stone, though it does wear very quickly and likely requires a little extra care to avoid cutting into it. Because of the nature of the matrix the 3K grit produces a mirror finish. Apparently much the same for the Trizact A5. Neat thing about the Trizact is that they have it in sanding belt form also. You might try sticking Trizact to a hard surface and see what it's like. Now if they would just start offering more in cubic boron nitride...

Rick


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## simar (Oct 17, 2013)

If you are comfortable with the stropping motion, on high grit sand paper I have taken off the burr using that technique.  On Trizact I have used the same stropping motion on the foam backed A3 and A5 pads and had some amazing results.  For a lot of my knives stropping to 3 micron Trizact is good enough to have a working edge and isn't time consuming and touch-ups are easy.  But it does come down to learning curve, it will take some time to learn to sharpen on SiC wet/dry paper and Trizact.  Again this is the budget minded option, all it really costs you is a granite base to use the pads on.

Simar


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## thetourist (May 23, 2013)

I'm a professional sharpener.  I use Japanese waterstones exclusively.  I threw away everything else.


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