# Seeking a college degree in cooking



## Daxocyt (11 mo ago)

Hi all! My biggest hobby is cooking, and I think of entering a college to improve my cooking skills and ensure a better future. As I know, I'll be required to submit an admission essay to be enrolled, but I'm not a good writer. How to make admissions board notice me? Can I convince them through writing?


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

Well, 
As a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park NY 30 years ago...

While going to school we had a nickname that CIA stood for "Cash In Advance "

But basically the schools gave us a foundation in Culinary arts...it taught us the basics...after that it was up to us individually to learn more on our own. 

I graduated with others who were still catching their apron strings on fire from the stoves. 
But that doesn't mean that the needed information isn't there to be accessed. 

It's what you make of it. 
Also natural talent for cooking and tasting food that others will enjoy doesn't hurt. 

But most is learned AFTER you graduate...building on the foundation you learned in school...if you are willing to continue to learn.

Express those sentiments...of wanting to continue to learn.


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## Daxocyt (11 mo ago)

FoodFighter said:


> Hi, how much would a four year degree in cooking cost?


The average price of a degree is usually higher than $30,000. I found an institution awarding a certificate, and it'll cost me $19,200 in a year.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

The yearly cost depends on the school so the price will vary. Most culinary programs are two years with an optional additional two years for management studies. Schools like the CIA and Johnson and Wales will be more expensive than the local community college program. 
What is also important to understand is the curriculum they offer and how the curriculums differ from school to school. There are many approaches and many topics that can be taught and not all schools teach all of them. Not all approaches may be to your liking.
Keep in mind that culinary school is just an important foundation for you to build on. There is not time in two or four years to teach you everything you can and will learn in your career. The best a school can do is provide exposure to the many aspects of the culinary arts and hopefully instill a professional attitude in you. After graduation you should continue to be open to learning and make the effort to continually self educate.


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## Daxocyt (11 mo ago)

FoodFighter said:


> Are there any apprenticeships?


Why do you ask?


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## Daxocyt (11 mo ago)

My key problem is not the tuition fee or the choice of school, my problem is the absence of a strong recommendation letter. I seem to finish my personal statement and it looks good enough, but I don't know where to get a good recommendation letter.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I suggest, no, actually I insist, on you working in a commercial kitchen for AT LEAST 6 mths before entering any culinary school. The reasons for doing so are as follows:

A) The pace, physical and mental stresses are, um, “ unique” to the hospitality industry and you really need to experience this before plunking your money down
.B) The working hours are unique as well, weekends and public holidays are the norm. If you currently have an active social life you will have to modify it.
C) Money. Cooking pays crap. If you have zero working experience prior to culinary school, you have zero working experience upon graduating. Employers know this and will be offering minimum wage or slightly better. If you have money and can pay for culinary school without loans your financial situation might be doable.
D) To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. is the only industrialized nation that doesn’t have national gov’t recognized qualifications for cooking. This is one of the reasons the curriculums differ so greatly between schools, it is also the main reason why pay for cooks sucks so badly
E) Employers don’t care what school you graduated from probably related to the above reason.
F) with working experience you will be able to extract much, much more from culinary school compared to the newbie student who doesn’t know what 1/6 th pans are, or what “ sear it on the flattop” means.
G) culinary schools tend to pick students with prior experience over newbies, some schools insist on it, the others should to.

What you need to do is discuss all the reasons I have listed with your partner/ family member/ close friend and really think about the industry you want to enter. The entrance fee is free, it even pays- minimum wage at best, but you NEED to work in the industry before plunking down money for culinary school.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

Like @foodpump said above...Culinary school is for those going into management...not just getting a job as a line slime, pantry bitch, or catering kook position. (OLD slang for various positions)

And that's something that you need to figure out before you go. Are you a leader? Can you inspire an entire kitchen brigade to perform? Anybody can be a boss...and petty tyrants make great fodder for viral videos as the villain.

Who are you?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

No I did not say that culinary school is only for those going into management. Culinary school should teach you the concepts and principles of the various cooking methods, ingredient knowledge, and most importantly, hygiene basics. These are all things that we expect of any employee in the kitchen to understand, and sadly that many kitchens are incapable of teaching.

Daxocyt: you are stumped with the letter of recommendation required by the school. Look at item (g) in my previous post— most culinary schools WANT some kind prior working experience.

There are three major “ forces” within a culinary school: sales, management, and instructors. Sales insist on admitting anyone who has the money into the school, instructors insist on teaching those who have some experience, and management are concerned with the percentage of students who find work upon graduating. ( see item (c) in my previous post) Throw these three forces into a meeting room and lock the door, and eventually a compromise will emerge: A recommendation letter. 
Who writes this letter? An employer of course. This is better than stating on the school admissions form that all applicants need prior working experience. 

Hope this provides some thoughtful outcomes...


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

foodpump said:


> No I did not say that culinary school is only for those going into management. Culinary school should teach you the concepts and principles of the various cooking methods, ingredient knowledge, and most importantly, hygiene basics. These are all things that we expect of any employee in the kitchen to understand, and sadly that many kitchens are incapable of teaching.
> 
> Daxocyt: you are stumped with the letter of recommendation required by the school. Look at item (g) in my previous post- most culinary schools WANT some kind prior working experience.
> 
> ...


You might not have said that only management goes to formal education but it is something that you alluded to as a matter of prudence. 
The cost of an education is high...and largely unused if just getting a regular job in foodservice. The ONLY time it becomes a true investment that pays off is if you are in management making an above average salary in foodservice.

Of course a person needs experience before getting an education in foodservice. It's not a pleasant experience for anyone if someone goes into Culinary school without even the most basic knowledge and experience in a foodservice environment.

There's a million ways to make people sick with the food you serve. Many which aren't obvious. But there's a lot of sanitation courses freely available. Some cities require these certifications...(I've only heard of and not personally experienced this requirement)

But then as you stated...I had a stack of recommendation letters from previous employers before I went to school. All covering years of experience before I sent off my application for admission. 
Plus I had a business degree I completed before I applied. (Which didn't hurt) 
Because management was my end goal. 
But I worked in foodservice while getting my business degree...

CIA has both internships and externship. You work in their production kitchens and public restaurants and then have a stint you work in an approved restaurant. I did mine in a high end hotel. I could have gone to the Waldorf Astoria but was warned off against it. So I went to the Halcyon in the Rhiga Royal.

It's a lot of work...you get access to a lot of other high end kitchens too...crazy, insane hours when young enough to do such things. Now I'm a grumpy old man and unwilling and unable to pull off such foolishness.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

JohnDB said:


> JohnDB said:
> 
> 
> > You might not have said that only management goes to formal education but it is something that you alluded to as a matter of prudence.
> > The cost of an education is high...and largely unused if just getting a regular job in foodservice. The ONLY time it becomes a true investment that pays off is if you are in management making an above average salary in foodservice.


I don't understand the first sentence, but you bring up many points that need to be discussed, particularly since this was thread was started by someone wanting to go to culinary school.

Based on my 35ish years in this industry, I can pretty much guarantee that a newbie WONT learn what they need to in kitchens, primarily because the kitchens function is to make a profit and not to educate employees. On the other hand,a culinary schools reputation rests on the knowledge their students have.(or should have)

A lot of people dream of being a Chef and have no clue how to achieve this goal, and the Industry needs these people as this industry is constant flux. The hotels, chains, and clubs-- basically those that have an HR Dept. want to see some kind of credentials when they hire cooks and Chefs, yet the hospitality industry doesn't have such an item. So the HR Boys have to to go to the next closest thing, culinary school certificates. Catch-22, since there is no standard credential for what a cook should know or be capable of, every ( deleted) culinary school has a different curriculum and certificate.

The next thing I need to know is what your definition of " management" is in the hospitality industry.
 For me, the Chef who supervises 10 staff, is responsible for food and labour costs, responsible for the upkeep of the kitchen and hygiene, IS management. I ve worked under many GMs, residential managers, and owners who have very little culinary knowledge and are successful and stable in their positions, and culinary school didn't do much for them-- if they 
attended culinary school, which many didn't.

I have met very few line cooks over the age of 40 and my logic for this is that cooking is transitional--it is a stepping stone for management or ownership. Culinary school needn't be CIA or J&W where the tuition is simply not congruent to what a cook would earn. There are many community colleges that do a very good job and are more affordable. The Europeans have relied on apprenticeships for centuries and having completed one myself, find it the most economical and practical solution. This will never happen in N. America though, at least not in my lifetime.

This industry needs young cooks, it just doesn't have a(deleted) clue on how to achieve this, or even the foresight to consider it a problem.....


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## Moscoffier (Jun 16, 2021)

Daxocyt said:


> Hi all! My biggest hobby is cooking, and I think of entering a college to improve my cooking skills and ensure a better future. As I know, I'll be required to submit an admission essay to be enrolled, but I'm not a good writer. How to make admissions board notice me? Can I convince them through writing?


Hi Daxocyt

Three part answer:

1) Most top Chefs I have met almost cannot spell their name. They often left school at 14 because it wasn't for them. So application forms are a compulsory song and dance but they are hugely overrated as a passing test.

2) I agree with the comments below. a stint on as a dogsbody or even as a dishwasher will tell you a lot about restaurant ambiance and is a good test of your desire for the career.

3) Rather than blow $120k you could consider entering into one of the European private programmes say, Ferandi in Paris or Le Cordon Bleu in London. They will be cheaper and will include (unpaid) internships in Michelin level restaurants. They will organise the residence permit for you and they have streams in English.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Moscoffier said:


> Hi Daxocyt
> 
> Three part answer:
> 
> ...


1). The admission essay tells the school what your expectations are, what kind of experience you have, and what your plans for the future are. All in all, it's not much different from an interview with a prospective employer. Lets face it, if admitted you would be spending a lot of time with the school and it's instructors, as well as representing the school upon graduation. While an essay format might not be ideal, the content is VERY important.

I don't understand what you mean by " most top chefs I have met almost cannot spell their own name".. Would you, as an owner or GM give such a person the responsibilities of running a profitable kitchen, purchasing, and supervision of a $20,000.00 and up payroll? That's a pretty crappy stereotype, considering that you are communicating on a website for Chefs, with Chefs, not verbally, but written. Smarten up.

3) Please check out what foreign culinary schools charge before you suggest them. Also, bear in mind finding a reasonable room to rent in London or Paris is not cheap ( or easy) and must be included with the tuition as well as the unpaid internship.


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## Moscoffier (Jun 16, 2021)

Smarten up? That's pretty arrogant.

My argument, based on both talking to top end Chefs as well as listening to multiple interviews and podcasts is that, for most of them, school was torture. It doesn't mean that they aren't smart or that they couldn't manage a budget, simply that the formal part of education is definitely not for them. What I have observed in cooking school is a veneer of pretence for academic stuff but what really counts is kitchen behaviour. Also, the norm these days is a pairing between a business manager and a Chef: each working to their own strengths.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Like I stated above, you are on a website created by chefs, for chefs, no one likes a Chef stereotype of " almost cannot spell their own name". If you like you can contact the site moderator who is a Chef, or the site owner, who also is a Chef, or perhaps gather support from the members here who also are-- you guessed it--Chefs.

I don't know what you mean by " kitchen behavior" but the cook who eventually becomes a Chef needs excellent written and oral skills, good HR skills, good accounting skills, good mansgement skills, ecellent product and equipment knowledge, and a knack of knowing how to ask for things. 

So please elaborate on what you mean by "kitchen behavior" and which culinary school you observed this in.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

Daxocyt said:


> Hi all! My biggest hobby is cooking, and I think of entering a college to improve my cooking skills and ensure a better future. As I know, I'll be required to submit an admission essay to be enrolled, but I'm not a good writer. How to make admissions board notice me? Can I convince them through writing?


don't make it too long, it should fit on the back of a sufficiently large check.


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

If you do a simple google search of "culinary schools", most of the responses will be from local community colleges... true, CIA or ICE or CB are all "big names" but what you need are the basics... and you can pay for a "professional" education at St. Helena or Hyde Park, or get a similar education for about half that at your local community college... and quite frequently it's as simple as signing up for classes... Mind you, some Communiy College food programs are so-so at best, so you have to do your homework... but some really ARE top notch and won't set you back as far as CIA or Harvard... .

Another thing to keep im mind... if you don't already have it, you'll need to have some basic education thrown in there... Reading, maths, all that. Not only because it's a degree requirement at most all colleges, but it provides a back up for when you're not working foods.... and unfortunately, a LOT of people go into food only to have their lives make a sharp left turn and end up somewhere else. 

You asked about a referrence letter - Mine (for CCA, no longer there but it was a good school before it got caught up in scandal) came from the exec chef (at a huge local resort, training camp for an NFL team, etc.) I worked for back then. Thing was, MOST schools required a reference from a chef you had worked for, so to get through the first "bar" you had to show you knew the hell you were proposing to put yourself through... add to that basic food safety and rudimentary knife skills, etc. by working in a shop somewhere. 

If I can make one recommendation, it's the one others here have said - WORK IN A KITCHEN, a GOOD one and hopefully a BUSY one. Learn the bare basics of sanitation and knife skills and which side of the sauté pan to cool on, what the difference is between a gool griddle and an overheated one, what basic foods look like when they're fresh, and when they're shot, and MOST IMPORTANTLY how to SAFELY haul ass and move constantly in a kitchen environment. From there you get the knowledge where your boss will write that letter, and you're problem (at least that part of it) is solved.

Good luck!


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

After posting his spam link to a college essay service, Daxocyt never returned. I, of course, deleted the link.


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

phatch said:


> After posting his spam link to a college essay service, Daxocyt never returned. I, of course, deleted the link.


Thank you for your service! --giggles-- Seriously, I'm glad I didn't see the spam link... tho with a user name like "Daxocyt" why should I be surprised... :rofl:


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