# What do quality pizzerias do to their sauce that home cooks don't?



## tiemu (Jul 24, 2014)

I've tried a few different tomato sauce recipes from pizza books aimed at home cooks and they're okay, but never as special as a good pizzeria.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Some places just use good canned tomatoes and fresh herbs.  

In a lot cases tomato sauces require a lot of salt.  I'm sorry to have been the one to break it to you.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Ive worked for many an italian who used a laundry list of ingredients including sugar, all "nonas recipe." There is alot of superstition. Canned san marzanos are probably going to be your best option for tomatos. Little finely minced proscuitto is a great way to start the pot.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

NYC pizza makes me think of sugar, they taste very sweet to me and very overcooked like marinara. They also have lots of dried oregano in them, can't forget that. 

It doesn't have to be complicated. Good tomatoes, fresh garlic, and fresh herbs. I put a little onion in mine and good olive oil.


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## genemachine (Sep 26, 2012)

I always use sugar, to taste, to balance the acidity of the tomatoes. Amount strongly depends on your batch of tomatoes, though.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Koukouvagia said:


> NYC pizza makes me think of sugar, they taste very sweet to me and very overcooked like marinara. They also have lots of dried oregano in them, can't forget that.
> 
> It doesn't have to be complicated. Good tomatoes, fresh garlic, and fresh herbs. I put a little onion in mine and good olive oil.


marinara being a quick sauce with no sugar added... :s mariners sauce.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

MSG in many.

dcarch


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## genemachine (Sep 26, 2012)

dcarch said:


> MSG in many.


Tomatoes carry umami, the cheese on the pizza carries umami. People seriously add MSG there? To mask crappy tomatoes or what?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

How does msg equate to crappy in your mind... think dcarch was making a joke about canned sauce?


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## genemachine (Sep 26, 2012)

SpoiledBroth said:


> How does msg equate to crappy in your mind... think dcarch was making a joke about canned sauce?


No, I am just wondering why one would add MSG to something that is already laden with glutamate and GMP/IMP. I don't see the point there.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

All fast foods, and many others add MSG.

Check their ingredients and you will see.

http://www.msgtruth.org/avoid.htm

dcarch


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## genemachine (Sep 26, 2012)

dcarch said:


> All fast foods, and many others add MSG.
> 
> Check their ingredients and you will see.
> 
> ...


Yeah, no doubt about that. The thread was about "quality" pizzerias, though. Depending what the OP qualifies as "good", of course. Is my palate so out of tune with general taste that I don't see the point in it here?


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

GeneMachine said:


> Yeah, no doubt about that. The thread was about "quality" pizzerias, though. Depending what the OP qualifies as "good", of course. Is my palate so out of tune with general taste that I don't see the point in it here?


"I've tried a few different tomato sauce recipes from pizza books aimed at home cooks and they're okay, *but never as special as a good pizzeria.*"

And good pizzerias use MSG also.

The next time you have a spectacularly delicious meal in a fancy restaurant, you can be enjoying MSG also. And I don't mean in a Chinese restaurant. MSG is everywhere.

dcarch


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## raisin (Sep 7, 2014)

I can't speak for other regions or styles, but the great NY style pizzas use an un-cooked sauce, usually just some crushed tomatoes mixed with a few herbs. The big solution over at pizzamaking.com is the Escalon 6/1 canned tomatoes, and i can't argue with it at all. The crust with a little rim of caramelized sweet tomato and maybe a hint of garlic is one of lives simplest pleasures.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

If you start with fresh tomatoes crush them then let them stand for awhile. Clear liquid will rise to the top as the tomato solids settle out and you can drain it off to thicken the sauce if you want an uncooked tomato sauce.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

dcarch said:


> All fast foods, and many others add MSG.
> 
> Check their ingredients and you will see.
> 
> ...


the also contain lots of salt... lets stop cooking with salt also. To my knowledge there very few peer reviewed studies to support claims that msg has any negative effect. Chinese food syndrome.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Somewhat OTT but here's a good one:


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

Worth checking:

http://www.pizzamaking.com

mjb.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

I made pizzas for years - no msg, no cooking the sauce, I added a little sugar, or honey, oregano, basil, parsley, salt, pepper.  That was made with fresh bulk/canned tomato sauce - #10 cans.  Pizza sauce is the only tomato thing I use oregano in - it tastes like pizza to me.  To make the spaghetti sauce we took that and added some paste and cooked that down a little till it tasted "right".


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

I never use the same tomato sauce on a pizza twice. Unless I have to. 

Raw with some oregano, garlic, salt and olive oil and stick blender it. 

Leftover pasta sauce, whatever is around and seems to pair with whatever toppings I'm using. 

I hate store pizza sauce. It's always too sweet - at least in NYC - but have noticed MSG. Even the peruvian rotisserie chicken place uses it (I asked).


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

ordo,

This recipe looks complicated and expensive to make when Little Caesar's sells a pizza for $5.00.  Is it worth the time, money, and effort to do it yourself?  Have you made it yourself and find it is worth your time?  If yes, I might try it when I can (on a diet now).

Lily


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Lilygardener: yes i did it and many variations over the years. But the fact is that i like just a little sauce on pizzas -what i love about pizza is principally the bread- and may be the best ones were done with very simple "sauces" even with simple fresh or confit tomatoes.

With sauce:





  








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With confit cherries:





  








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With fresh tomatoes:





  








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ordo


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Jan 21, 2015


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## le plongeur (Jan 6, 2015)

The common mistake that most home cooks make when cooking with tomatoes in any sauce is being impatient. With tomatoes, the longer and slower you cook them for, the better the results.

In ragus, pizza sauces, chillis etc, cooking out the raw fresh tomato taste adds natural sweetness, earthiness and body. By extension, there's really no need to add sugar if you cook a tomato sauce for 6-8 hours as tomatoes naturally contain a huge amount of fructose - it just needs coaxing out.

So to answer your question, the biggest reason why most home cooked pizza sauces don't taste as good as a pizzerias is because pizzerias, through experience and knowledge, cook their sauces slower and longer.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Lilygardener said:


> ordo,
> 
> This recipe looks complicated and expensive to make when Little Caesar's sells a pizza for $5.00. Is it worth the time, money, and effort to do it yourself? Have you made it yourself and find it is worth your time? If yes, I might try it when I can (on a diet now).
> 
> Lily


Scratch made sauce vs Little Caesar's???? Really?? That has to be the worst excuse for pizza there is on the market.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't know any pizzeria that makes a sauce like this using these ingredients.

  I do not consider Little Caesar's  even pizza its tomato bread. You pay $5.00 and you get $5.00.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Le Plongeur said:


> The common mistake that most home cooks make when cooking with tomatoes in any sauce is being impatient. With tomatoes, the longer and slower you cook them for, the better the results.
> 
> In ragus, pizza sauces, chillis etc, cooking out the raw fresh tomato taste adds natural sweetness, earthiness and body. By extension, there's really no need to add sugar if you cook a tomato sauce for 6-8 hours as tomatoes naturally contain a huge amount of fructose - it just needs coaxing out.
> 
> So to answer your question, the biggest reason why most home cooked pizza sauces don't taste as good as a pizzerias is because pizzerias, through experience and knowledge, cook their sauces slower and longer.


For most pizzas, the sauce is the biggest flavor component. And it's a more common mistake to over-sauce a pizza than to under sauce it. Long cooked tomatoes don't taste particularly like tomatoes any more. They've lost their acid impact as well. In a pizza, the primary place you have to cut through the fat and dairy and other toppings is in the sauce. You need to preserve the acidity of the tomato and the most tomato flavor.

10 or so years ago, Kuan posted a link about this where the least cooked but canned tomatoes made the best pizza sauce. I can't find that original post nor the link though. Since that time, Cook's illustrated has taken the same course and espouses canned crushed tomatoes as the basis for the sauce and no cooking. And I've come to agree.

Add some fresh minced garlic, salt, pepper, oregano. That's it, no cooking. I save the olive oil for the crust, brushing the formed dough with olive oil before saucing. This keeps the sauce from wetting the dough and lets the dough bake properly.

The thinner your crust, the less of everything you put on it. And with pizza, less is usually more anyway.

Less cooking of the sauce, keep the sauce SIMPLE. Less sauce on the pizza. Light with the cheese and toppings, keeps everything in the right balance.


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## le plongeur (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree with you, Phatch. Slow cooking of tomatoes is probably much more suited to chilli/ragu/curries than pizza sauce. I was too focused on OP's main question of the differences and that one sprung to mind more than anything.

I've had some great pizza with "sauce" that's made of virtually raw tomatoes. Napolitano style pizzas are cooked hotter and quicker than usual and the sauce on those can often just been seasoned hand-crushed raw San Marzanos.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Excuse my ignorance please; I have never had scratch made pizza sauce unless someone slipped it to me in a restaurant. I went to a local high-priced pizza place that opened up near us recently and did not find anything better about it than Little Caesar's (not that I think Little Caesar's is that great), it is simply cheap and convenient.

 Every time I have spent lots of time and money making a recipe I find on the internet, I have been disappointed.  I do trust you chefs and cooks more than the commercial sites, I just don't want to be stung again.

I like your comment about the crust, ordo.  I might try a simple sauce that is not cooked first and then move on to other things.

 I have also never made a pizza crust from scratch (I can hear your hisses and boo's now).  If I say I like the dough they sell at Publix, will I be kicked off ChefTalk? 

Lily


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

I often use canned tomato sauce as a base if I am out of home canned.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

phatch said:


> The thinner your crust, the less of everything you put on it. And with pizza, less is usually more anyway.


I also concur. Back a few decades I loved soggy, overloaded pizzas with 435 or so different toppings. Now I favor thinner crusts with just a few toppings. But I do on occasion go for a more bread like crust, such as this pie I made a while back.





  








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Canned tomato sauce with fresh garden herbs, cheese, mushrooms and browned sausage.

mjb.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Lilygardener said:


> ordo,
> 
> This recipe looks complicated and expensive to make when Little Caesar's sells a pizza for $5.00. Is it worth the time, money, and effort to do it yourself? Have you made it yourself and find it is worth your time? If yes, I might try it when I can (on a diet now).
> 
> Lily


In my opinion yes, it is worth the time, money and effort. But you ask a question that people ask of themselves daily, is it worth it to me to spend my time cooking when I can so easily order take out? The common answer to that question is what has been plaguing the American health and fueling the obesity crisis in our country... in every country. We are overworked, under paid and seriously lacking in time to do the things that are good for our health such as rest, exercise, cook and eat nutritious food, and spend time with friends and loved ones. Any investment we make towards these pursuits is well worth it in the end, for these are the things that make us live a healthy happy long life.


Lilygardener said:


> Excuse my ignorance please; I have never had scratch made pizza sauce unless someone slipped it to me in a restaurant. I went to a local high-priced pizza place that opened up near us recently and did not find anything better about it than Little Caesar's (not that I think Little Caesar's is that great), it is simply cheap and convenient.
> 
> Every time I have spent lots of time and money making a recipe I find on the internet, I have been disappointed. I do trust you chefs and cooks more than the commercial sites, I just don't want to be stung again.
> 
> ...


Don't apologize, you have much to learn but we all have had a lot to learn when it comes to this topic. I know I felt the same way back when I was in college and now I'm nearing my 40's and I have a young child I need to raise and teach about good health and nutrition - it took me a long time to learn how to cook and learn healthy habits!

So about this high priced pizza place - tell us more about it. What was the pizza like? What did you like about it, what did you not like about it? Why is it high priced? What made you think that Little Caesar's was a better choice?

I know it's frustrating to make a recipe and have it not turn out the way you expected but a recipe doesn't tell the whole story of what you need to do. There is a range of technique you need to build in order to make a recipe come to life and most of the time recipes don't spell out that technique. Stick around here and we're all happy to help from one recipe to another.

My home made pizza costs a lot more than pizza delivery! Same thing with my home made fried chicken, burgers, tacos, typically all "take out food" is more expensive done at home. The reason for this is that fast food places buy very cheap ingredients in bulk and use a lot of processed foods to keep their costs down. I on the other hand want to use fresh ingredients, many of them organic, and no processed foods if I can help it. For my crust I use unbleached organic flour by King Arthur, fresh baker's yeast, real olive oil, a pinch of my organic sugar and salt. I knead it by hand and then let it rise for a few hours or over night. That only takes about 15min. Then for my pizza sauce I use a couple of cloves of fresh garlic, one can of organic whole tomatoes, a little olive oil, salt/pepper, and a good amount of oregano. I only cook it for about 10minutes and then after it cools down a little I stir in a big handful of fresh basil.

My toppings are simple, fresh mozzarella (as opposed to the blend of "melting cheese" that take out pizzerias use, yuck), freshly grated parmesan, freshly cut mushrooms (pizzerias use canned), some bell pepper and ham or pepperoni if needed. Yes this is costly, but whatever ingredients I don't use up for the pizza can be used in other dishes like omelettes, stews, etc so nothing goes to waste. Any left over dough can be frozen and used to make calzones, or dessert pizzas or even garlic knots.

Is it the best pizza in the world? Certainly not, I don't have a wood fired oven that goes up to 1000F, and I'm no expert at making great dough. I've eaten fantastic pizza at local nyc pizzerias and in Italy. But my pizza is fresh, it's not full of msg or oversalted and oversugared, and it's very wholesome nutritious food. I hate to say it but if my only choice of take out pizza was little Caesars I just wouldn't eat any pizza ever.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Mike9 said:


> ... Pizza sauce is the only tomato thing I use oregano in - it tastes like pizza to me. ...


I don't want to make a big oregano controversy again but I have to say it - don't pigeonhole oregano, it is such a great herb! Ok we Greeks overuse it on everything, I admit. But have you ever tried it on fish? Amazing! Take a tuna steak, rub it with olive oil, salt pepper and dried oregano and then pan sear it. It is SPECIAL! I put it on steak too, I put it on everything unfortunately. But try it on something else, I use it just as you would use thyme.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

koukouvagia,

I like your philosophy about fresh ingredients and effort in keeping the family healthy.  I admit that I have on 10 or more occasions chosen to stop on my way home and pick up a Caesar's pizza ($5 for either large cheese or pepperoni in our area, which is a suburb of Atlanta).

Convenience and expense are certainly considerations to me, a retired person.  However, just to redeem myself a little, I spent at least a half hour this morning peeling asparagus. I then tied the spears together and plunged them into boiling water for around 8 minutes, and ate them for breakfast with a little salt and freshly squeezed lemon juice only (approximately 51 calories of pure veggie power).  I don't mind spending time and money on healthy food, I think my issue with the time and money on the pizza is that pizza is fattening, and not the best thing to spend a lot of money on.  I do agree that the way you make it, it is a lot healthier than Caesar's.

New York pizzerias, wow!  We were in NY around 2009, saw three Broadway shows, and stayed at a hotel on Times Square.  One night I ordered pizza in one of the hotel's restaurants or it may have been a piano bar.  It was served on a long wooden plank, had a hand shaped crust, was prepared with a white sauce and topped with mushrooms.  It was delicious.  We love NY.

Anyway, back to food.  I am so excited to be a part of this site now, and I look forward to reading past articles and posts, and being part of future ones.  I am ready to learn the things about cooking I have always wanted to know but simply did not have a substantial or sustained amount of time to which to devote.

I don't know if you have Publix supermarkets in your area, but here in Atlanta they sell pizza dough in a plastic bag that has risen and can be rolled or pressed out, and topped with whatever sauce and other ingredients are chosen.  I have in recent months discovered fresh mozzarella and use it on those "fresh" pizzas I have made using Publix' dough. I do use packaged, sliced pepperoni however.

Several respondents on this post have recommended making a simple sauce like the one you make from organic tomatoes, and I think I am going to do that the next time I make pizza.  Thanks for the time and effort you have taken to respond.  Look forward to hearing your comments in the future.

Lily


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

koukouvgia,

The high priced pizza was from a shop called Peace. Love, Pizza. I think they are a local company with just a few shops. A 14" pizza with a few meats is $21.00, a 10" is $13.99.

They have a website you can checkout. http://plp4.peaceloveandpizza.com. I did not taste anything different about the pizza we got, which was on a opening day special sale, but still cost more than other local pizzas. I will never go there again, it just is not worth the money.

Now that NY pizza with mushrooms, I do not remember it being particularly expensive, but we were on vacation and there is a different mind set during those times. I would pay more for that pizza.

Lily


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Koukouvagia said:


> I don't want to make a big oregano controversy again but I have to say it - don't pigeonhole oregano, it is such a great herb! Ok we Greeks overuse it on everything, I admit. But have you ever tried it on fish? Amazing! Take a tuna steak, rub it with olive oil, salt pepper and dried oregano and then pan sear it. It is SPECIAL! I put it on steak too, I put it on everything unfortunately. But try it on something else, I use it just as you would use thyme.


Believe me I use Oregano - just not in spaghetti sauce. Many things get the herb and of course pizza sauce.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Good to hear. I don't put it in spaghetti sauce either


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Haven't seen it mentioned above, so here goes... a lot of pizza places will not cook their sauces. Rather, the sauce is assembled 'raw' and the pizza oven cooks the sauce. Why? The aromatics are released under the high temp of the pizza oven, captured in the crust and cheese. Good, quality canned tomatoes (Alta Cucina, 7/11, Stanislaus) are often blended (a la immersion blender) with herbs, oil, sugar, etc. and then stored for usage. Seen it several times across multiple operations from neighborhood places to pizza 'boutiques.' Hope this helps!


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## woodoveneats (Feb 17, 2015)

Grüß Gott:  Do you prefer to use fresh tomatoes or a high quality canned tomato?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Good canned tomatoes


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## woodoveneats (Feb 17, 2015)

What brand of canned tomatoes would be suggested?


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## tiemu (Jul 24, 2014)

The best Neapolitan pizza sauces I've eaten have a wonderfully tangy flavour, but I can't put my finger on what it is. I wonder if it's also because the heat of the oven.

I usually blend raw tomatoes with garlic, oil, salt and oregano (sometimes sugar, sometimes not). But it's always bland and insipid. The best sauce I've made at home isn't authentic at all but at least has a powerful taste: just tomato paste.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Using raw tomatoes is a problem IMHO. They have too much weakly flavored juice. Best thing for using fresh tomatoes in pizza is a variant of PIzza  Margherita unsauced. wtih the tomatoes roasted on top of the cheese on the pizza, then topped with chiffonade of basil out of the oven.


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## whitelove88 (Feb 17, 2015)

Lilygardener said:


> koukouvagia,
> 
> I like your philosophy about fresh ingredients and effort in keeping the family healthy. I admit that I have on 10 or more occasions chosen to stop on my way home and pick up a Caesar's pizza ($5 for either large cheese or pepperoni in our area, which is a suburb of Atlanta).
> 
> ...


I guess you must be a healthy cook. Also pizza is my favorite food in the United States./img/vbsmilies/smilies/licklips.gif


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Honestly whitelove88,

Healthy to me is natural.  The most delicious and healthy foods are a fresh cucumber, radish  or tomato sliced, sprinkled with a bit of salt, and eaten as is.  

Second best to me is masterfully cooked food.  It is the poorly prepared food that comes between that I want to avoid in the future.  If I spend some of the time I have left cooking, I want it to taste really good.

I see you are a new subscriber.  Welcome from someone recently new herself.

Lily


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

This may be a long poorly organized post. I have a lot to say on this topic.

Simple easy and fresh should be your guide.  Most Italian ingredients and dishes are peasant food.  Nothing too complex or with many steps.  The people that invented the cuisine mostly just pulled stuff from the garden and slapped it together, maybe let it simmer for awhile until it came together just right.  Use less but better and fresher ingredients.  Decent canned tomatoes are fine though.  San Marzanos are the best, very few people would dispute that.  But, you can make a good sauce without them.  Just don't get preflavored stuff, stuff with garlic, basil or tons of salt if you can help it, it is n't as good as fresh and you aren't in control.  And don't overcook it.  Some would say onion, shallots, garlic, parsley, basil, mint, oregano, marjoram, and they're all good suggestions.  A lot of salt is not a horrible suggestion, but that is somewhere around half true.  Our palettes have been over-salted by commercial and standard Americanized pizza.  Think about it.  like 75% of all the pizza out there doesn't taste that different from each other.  There is often tons of salt in the pseudo mozzarella as well.  A lot of good commercial pizza follows this, but you don't have to.  Some in my area have better sauces without tons of salt or sugar.

A good friend of mine worked at an old Italian deli/bakery that did stuff pretty OG.  I have had the good fortune to have a really cool and mostly old cookbook collection.  I also worked in pizza off and on over the years.  And for not being in NYC, Rochester has some really good pizza, mostly from the heavy NYC influence as those guys came/come here.  This place used onion in their sauce, and it was my only complaint.

I'd say pick just a few flavors YOU really like and experiment.  Two herbs and garlic and/or onion.  I've even used oven roasted red peppers but keep it simple as you are figuring it out for yourself.  You don't want a busy sauce, so don't load it up with lots of different herbs etc.  If you like herbs, use some as toppings, but don't put it all in the sauce.  Mint and basil leaves make good toppings btw.  If anything, if you forego toppings and want more flavor, add herbs to the pie, but not the sauce recipe for a flavor boost. 

Keep in mind, canned tomatoes are already cooked, so if something has to be added to it that needs to get cooked, try to do that separately so you are only mixing flavors for like 10 or 15 minutes when you bring it all together on a stove. People make heavy acidic sauces by simmering forever, but that really is only ideal with FRESH tomatoes.  Trust me on this.  OG sauce is a lot of fresh tomatoes, and you cannot use high heat because it can burn, destroy the flavors and so a pot of tomatoes on a stove for 10 hours is really like 6 hours of these things getting up to temp, a few hours fo them breaking down on their own, and resting. 

You cannot go wrong with only fresh basil, oven roasted garlic and quality oregano with good tomatoes.  Chiffonade the basil, and add that to the pot with the roasted garlic and oregano with the whole canned tomatoes.  Do not do anything else to the basil.  Chiffonade only.  Sharp knife.  Don't bruise or hack it.  Cook for like 10 or 15 minutes once at a very low simmer, do not completely destroy the tasty volatile compounds from the herbs.  It continues to cook after you turn the heat off until it is cooled, so you don't need much time on the stove.  Use a lid but keep the simmer very low.  Salt and pepper to taste as you go.  Use freshly ground pepper, and less is more.  Good canned tomatoes will already be sweet enough (wrecked by overcooking) and the salt is merely to balance that and stop it from being flat.  Oh, and use an immersion blender or blender to puree after a cool and rest.  Reduce or add water if you want, but I've found the juices from the can are the right amount of water to go with the tomato after it cools.  That should make a good sauce without sugar etc etc.  Most of the salt in a good pizza's flavor profile should actually come from the cured meats or anchovies, not much else.  If anything, add more salt to the dough as well, not the sauce.  It will help a sauce that isn't briney stand out more. 

Recipes heavy in salt are balancing lots of sugar that is counteracting lots of low quality bitter herbs, which are all masking mediocre tomatoes.  The only dried herb you should use is oregano.  Avoid dried thyme or rosemary unless you want to make a dense acidic heavy sauce that they can't fix anyways.  If you use (only fresh!) parsley, you're way better off putting it on the pizza, either before the cheese, or after cooking, not in the sauce, it will get lost in the mix, unlike mints or basil will (oregano is related to mint).  Dried thyme and rosemary would work if from scratch with fresh tomatoes.  I myself, have never cared for using fresh thyme or rosemary in a pizza sauce.  They're winter herbs, and don't work as well as say basil or mint with a summer crop IMO.

I myself, would also avoid onions in the sauce.  They can take away from the tomato flavor, and overpower it or the other herbs.  Whereas garlic complements and is on a different wavelength, the onion kind of competes with the tomato a bit.  Shallots are not anything special for this.  People overuse shallots anyways.  They're like bacon and cheese for wannabe haute cuisine.  If anything, you're wasting money.  Skip the shallots, but buy the San Marzanos.  A sauce must taste good on its own, but also as a good part of the whole pizza.  Don't make a sauce that has everything in one shot.  It doesn't need it.  Like how Asian dishes are layered and complex, but every flavor comes it a different moment, pizza is the same.  A sauce just needs to complement other ingredients well, and simpler does that.  Some people rave that the new Dominoes sauce is great.  Honestly, it doesn't tie their pie together, which is what a good sauce does.  It is more like their pie is a vehicle to deliver the sauce.  It is a dense tomato taste and they use a lot of it.  The sauce tastes good, it would be a better dip, but a good pizza needs something more subtle and fresh.

The other reason many bad sauces are so heavy on salt, sugar and bad herbs, is the sauce is resisting being crowded out against really salty cheese.  If you use fresh mozz, you will see a simpler sauce works great, but will get drowned out by cheap and salty mozz. 

San Marzano, fresh basil, good (purple) garlic, (quality) oregano, salt and fresh ground pepper will make a great sauce. You don't even need olive oil either. Skip it.  It is not the only good one, but trust me when I say simple, easy fresh. 

I would avoid lemon.  You don't need more acid and the basil adds a bright note to the profile on its own.  If you want more of that, use fresh mint instead.  That will also complement the richness of good mozz, salty meats and spicy toppings well.  Mint also complements the richness of the mozz too.  I would not cook the fresh mint.  Add it right before pureeing.  Less is more here as well.  Like just 5 leaves at the most for 1 28oz can of tomatoes.

Why not use tomato puree you may ask? Good question.  Would they use the same tomatoes for the puree as the whole?  Probably not.  I could be wrong, but my experience with the interaction between capitalism and food, is that every grade of food has a role to play.  It may be purely mental, but my experiments with puree vs whole and pureeing myself fun that the puree did not taste as good.  Who knows how that is really made.  It could be tomato version of McDonald's hamburger meat. 

Lastly, I have worked for many pizzerias.  The store brands the specifically list puree as the ingredient, were the worst.  Mark's pizzeria has pretty weak sauce, and that is puree, corn oil and anything else that should be barred from making sauce.  Why not crushed tomatoes?  I don't know yet. I will admit some of the better canned store sauces use this though, but that's not a high bar to reach for ither.  Diced are fine, they're just like the whole, but I've always gotten the whole cheaper, so why bother if using this method.

Good luck.


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

That is a good pie btw.  I have done that with good results.  But, most people do not realize that they are to squeeze out the tomatoes innards and make sauce with just the flesh.  That is flavor country, in a good breed of tomato of course.  People worry more about the skins, but the skins are nothing.  That slime is what ruins a fresh from-scratch sauce.  Squeeze it all out!


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

That is very true.  Most people don't know these pizza secrets.  Those alta cusinas are good stuff.  I've used them a lot.  But, I did say to cook the sauce just to bring the flavors together and infuse the whole body, but I also caution to NOT overcook it.  Ten minutes helps and keeps it still fresh for the oven to work its magic.  I do agree with your general theory too though.  That's how I learned.  I only add the cooking though because I found the raw basil and freshly ground black pepper doesn't perform as well with the oven like a good quick infusion with a little cooking and then pureeing.  That's just me though.  Cheers!


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

tiemu said:


> The best Neapolitan pizza sauces I've eaten have a wonderfully tangy flavour, but I can't put my finger on what it is. I wonder if it's also because the heat of the oven.
> 
> I usually blend raw tomatoes with garlic, oil, salt and oregano (sometimes sugar, sometimes not). But it's always bland and insipid. The best sauce I've made at home isn't authentic at all but at least has a powerful taste: just tomato paste.


If you use raw, they have to be flavorful to begin with, which is in the flesh. Squeeze the juices out. Skip the tomato paste. Some people would debate me but I think that stuff is useless for most good cooking. You have to cut the tomatoes in half and squeeze the liquid out. Use better herbs. Use really good oregano, not standard grocery store stuff. Try an ethnic market. Use really good garlic (should have a tinge of purple and be juicy when crushed), and I suggest fresh basil. I also didn't see black pepper. Use freshly ground. Use a medium grind, and less is more. Roast the garlic too.


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

Quote:


Koukouvagia said:


> I don't want to make a big oregano controversy again but I have to say it - don't pigeonhole oregano, it is such a great herb! Ok we Greeks overuse it on everything, I admit. But have you ever tried it on fish? Amazing! Take a tuna steak, rub it with olive oil, salt pepper and dried oregano and then pan sear it. It is SPECIAL! I put it on steak too, I put it on everything unfortunately. But try it on something else, I use it just as you would use thyme.


You cannot overuse oregano unless you trying to season oregano with food. Oregano is a workhorse. Most people don't use quality oregano though, so they don't understand. Just butter, oregano, salt, pepper and lemon makes any fish AMAZING. It fixes any bland white fish. It is so key for a good vinaigrette.

Little do people realize, it is key for not just Mediterranean cooking, but Mexican. All the Mexican joints in my city except for one have bland food if it isn't spiced up with sauces. Oregano is awesome for stewing meats and making soups. The one good Mexican place, you can tell they use oregano, which is good for balancing garlic and cumin. It's like the best arts of sage and thyme without their limitations. It's bright and savory.

My ex-boss brought back some stuff from his last trip to Greece, and he had real Greek oregano picked near his dad's village, and it was incredible! He gave me like 2 TBSP and that stuff was so good. I almost didn't want to use it.


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## yeller (Mar 9, 2013)

Most pizza joints use canned pizza sauce either from Escalon or Stanislaus. It's rare to find somebody who starts with 6-1 crushed or ground and uses Marjoram


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Every one of the pizza places I've worked in, along with the one I owned, used individual products, such as 6-1, never pre-made sauce. NO decent pizza place would use a pre-made sauce. However ... if I was gonna recommend a canned sauce ... it would be _"Pastorelli's"_. In my simple opinion, it's the only pre-made sauce anyone should ever use. I think it's better than a lot of stuff I've had that home-chefs make from scratch.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Valuable stuff for working with tomatoes in general.  Just curious, is there anything the discarded tomato innards are good for?

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Valuable stuff for working with tomatoes in general. Just curious, is there anything the discarded tomato innards are good for?
> 
> Rick


Tomato water.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

mckallidon said:


> Quote:
> 
> You cannot overuse oregano unless you trying to season oregano with food. Oregano is a workhorse. Most people don't use quality oregano though, so they don't understand. Just butter, oregano, salt, pepper and lemon makes any fish AMAZING. It fixes any bland white fish. It is so key for a good vinaigrette.
> 
> ...


And as we all know mexican oregano (hot) is nothing like the mediterranean oregano (lemony) that I've gotten from Penzeys. 8)


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

kokopuffs said:


> And as we all know mexican oregano (hot) is nothing like the mediterranean oregano (lemony) that I've gotten from Penzeys. 8)


As I recall Mexican oregano is not really oregano, but a relative of, uh, sage, I think. Remind me, how do you spell 'google' ?


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

teamfat said:


> Remind me, how do you spell 'google' ?


I looked it up on google and the answer is google.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'm ecstatic to have both of the two previous posters to set me straight!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Gloogle says that mexican oregano is related to lemon verbana and has a citrus flavor.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Koukouvagia said:


> Gloogle says that mexican oregano is related to lemon verbana and has a citrus flavor.


The greek/mediterranean oregano that I've purchased from Penzeys tastes lemony, with a citrus flavor.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Leave it out at room temp all day????


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## dagger (Feb 4, 2005)

I found store bought boxed pizza improves when you pour some olive oil over it before cooking, seams they leave that out even costco. Question is spaghetti or pizza sauce what's the difference? I used to make spaghetti sauce using a can of hunts tomato sauce, 6 gallon cost $2.95 at costco then added my own touch like olive oil, onion, garlic, herbs, canned diced tomatoes and cheese. Put a block of chop meat in and let simmer for few hours. I would remove the chop meat then fill six 32 oz. Glade containers for the freezer. Rember when a bottle of sauce was 2 lbs.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Pizza sauce is fresh whereas spaghetti sauce is cooked.  Pizza sauce tends to have sugar in it some places.


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike9 said:


> Pizza sauce is fresh whereas spaghetti sauce is cooked. Pizza sauce tends to have sugar in it some places.


Most pizza sauces are used with tomatoes that have already been through a cooking process, or are premade sauces that have also been through a cooking process.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

mckallidon said:


> Most pizza sauces are used with tomatoes that have already been through a cooking process, or are premade sauces that have also been through a cooking process.


Yes tomatoes get "cooked" to some degree during the canning process, but that's different than spaghetti sauce that has been cooked before canning. When we made pizza sauce back in the day it was *canned tomato puree, granulated garlic, onion powder, oregano, sugar and salt to taste depending on the brand of tomato puree.* We made 3-4 gallons at a time depending on what day of the week it was. We also made spaghetti sauce from almost the same recipe, but we cooked it and I think we added tomato paste as well and backed off on the sugar - this was 40 some years ago so I'm fuzzy on the exact mumbers.


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## cerise (Jul 5, 2013)

tiemu said:


> I've tried a few different* tomato sauce recipes* from pizza books *aimed at home cooks* and they're okay, but never as special as a good pizzeria.


Not sure what you mean by "*Pizzeria*." There are chains, & Mom & Pop/independent establishments throughout the US etc. I don't think it's just about the sauce - but a combo of factors, i.e. using a pizza oven, the freshest ingredients (in season tomatoes or san marrzano), fresh herbs, and a good dough recipe. I grew up & ate Pizza in NYC, and mostly it was oily/greasy -- probably from the cheese. No simple answer here. Perhaps someone who owns a Pizzaria will weigh in as to their methods


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

At home you can get the cheese and you can get the sauce and with some experience you may have the proper dough. What you don't get is the 450°C wood oven to cook a pizza in 5 minutes or less.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

As I recall there are still 2 pizza places in New York using coal fired ovens. Would love to try a slice or two there.

mjb.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

teamfat said:


> As I recall there are still 2 pizza places in New York using coal fired ovens. Would love to try a slice or two there.
> 
> mjb.


The relatively teensy town of Providence RI has 2 coal fired pizza places. I tried the ritzier one, $20 for what was actually a very skimpy large pizza good for one person, and rather bland in all respects. Nothing much coming from the crust, and there wasn't much sauce or cheese to taste.

At an upscale place they thru a commemorative for an associate of mine, now the pizza they served as h'orderve was something. I believe the sauce was made with sun-dried tomato. Try that one why don't ya.

Rick


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

Wood fired pizza has gotten really trendy and none of the places are that great. They have great restaurants, but they should serve decent food. Their pizza has been unimpressive, and not just because we have a lot of good NYC influence here. Some of them don't even use good ingredients, like preshredded mozz that is way too salty, or bland sauce.

I worked for a great coffee shop that had better pizza, cooked in a stone oven from Italy, and they did a sundried tomato pestoish sauce that was really good.

There is a place like 10 miles from my hometown that does the coal fired pizza, and I've heard great things about it. It's the only place to last more than 2 years in that spot, so I may just check it out one of these days.


ordo said:


> At home you can get the cheese and you can get the sauce and with some experience you may have the proper dough. What you don't get is the 450°C wood oven to cook a pizza in 5 minutes or less.


Get a baking stone. My oven at home goes up to only 500F, but with a really legit stone my thin pizzas cook really fast!


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## yeller (Mar 9, 2013)

We live 20 minutes from anything in the desert, naturally we make it all and cook pizza on my Blackstone it's awesome. I love it

http://www.blackstoneproducts.com/videos/pizzaoven.html


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Was it worth $400? Ever cook fish or other things in it?


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## yeller (Mar 9, 2013)

chefbuba said:


> Was it worth $400? Ever cook fish or other things in it?


I paid around $300 for mine. And it's great for pizza. I hear a number of people rave that they cook steak at high sear temps on cast iron grill and it comes out fantastic. I cook all my steaks over mesquite fire so don't know if I want to try. I use the teflon grill pads on my gas grill for fish and grilled veggies.


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## tiemu (Jul 24, 2014)

It's been a long time since my original post but this is what I've learned in that time:

- fresh tomatoes make a nice sauce when roughly blended with garlic, fresh whole basil, fresh oregano, olive oil and salt and pepper. I let the sauce rest a few hours at room temperature, which improves the intensity of flavour.

- a thin base tastes better for home cooking. I always was using a thick base until recently. Thin base bakes better and let's the sauce shine better.

- a regular rectangular pan works well. A hot oven is more important than a pizza stone.

Having researched the pizza sites recommended on this thread, I think it'll be impossible to make a Neapolitan pizza without a very hot wood fired oven and San marzano tomatoes. But a satisfactory home pizza can be made nonetheless using simple ingredients and methods.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

@tiemu I don't think I get fresh tomatoes good enough, long enough, to do pizza with. After reading this thread I'm gonna stop cooking my canned ones, though


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