# Need advice on purchasing a new japanese chef nife



## ex navycook (Jan 29, 2011)

Hello all, I am looking to buy a new chef knife. I was using an 8" Kikuichi knife that I loved for over three years. Unfortunately last week at my internship another intern used my knife without my knowledge used m beloved knife while I was out weeding the garden and some how broke it. I know that suckes so bad but i can't turn back time and she paid me what I bought it for. Again unfortunately i bought it for $80. that's not going to buy me another Kikuichi but that's life. So i was thinking if any one has used other Japanese knives like Masahiro etc not Shun, Mac or Global ( I don't really like those knives for several reasons) i would greatly appreciate advice on them. I use a soft pinch grip normally, sharpen my own knives ( have been doing so with great pride for about 8 years). I am thinking about getting another Kikiuchi but I thought this might be a good time to try some other knives around the same cost. Any help will be greatly appreciated


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

KG-6

Gyuto 210mm

Total Length: 330mm Blade Thickness: 2.2mm Total Weight: 169g

Special Price $90.00



JCK Original 輝 KAGAYAKI Basic (ES) Series

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKI.html

OK. So I don't have all the experience of the real geeks here, but I think this fits your plan. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'. And only because you're NAVY.


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## ex navycook (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks IceMan this is a good recommendation from what i read about it and very affardable. Thank you


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It'a all good my friend. Just wait until the _regular standard _knife geeks chime in. You'll have pages of good information in no time.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Fujiwara FKM or Tojiro DP are among the very best entry level, stainless, western-style, chef's knives. One of those is probably your best choice.

The Misono Moly is excellent, better than either, but not as good a bargain as it once was. If you can afford the extra few bucks... as good a student knife as you can get. That said, it's now selling for roughly the same price as a MAC Pro which is an altogether better knife. Anyway, they're both probably out of your price range, so moving on...

Sorry, but I can't recommend the Kagayaki Basic ES.

The next series up from the Kagayaki Basic ES, the Kagayaki VG-10 ES, is better made, and an excellent value if you can live with VG-10's sometime chippiness; and as VG-10 goes the Kagayaki is not very chippy. FWIW, "Kagayaki" is not a manufacturer, it's JCK's house brand. The knives are made and put together "by committee" as the saying goes.

If you're already a very good sharpener -- or know someone else who's very good with Japanese knives -- the Kagayaki CarboNext is a lot of value. The sharpening caveat is for real. The knives need more than edge, they need complete, take it from jump street profiling. Don't buy the "extra sharpness" service JCK is selling, ieveryone who has tried it for the Carbo-Next (and posted) has been disappointed. Angry in fact.

Korin's house brand, Togiharu isn't the deal it used to be either, and they're only okay, not nearly as good as the Fujiwaras -- so no recommendation.

_Get a 24cm or 27cm, not 21cm. Get some decent stones and learn to sharpen really well._

BDL

PS. Curious as to what you don't like about MACs. Does it include MAC Pro? Please share.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

My own CarboNext might be atypical in a couple of regards.  With apologies in advance for redundancy -- the negative: there's a mild overgrind, which is probably not an issue but might be.  We'll see when I sharpen into the "dished" area a bit more. The positive: my knife didn't need a full-on reprofiling.  The edge was bad, even with the $12.00 extra "Extra Sharp" option.  The bevel was not even -- I don't mean asymmetrical, I mean it was not a consistent bevel on either side of the blade, individually.  BUT... it sharpened easily, it got "pretty" easily.  The knife is much easier to sharpen than it my stainless (Yoshihiro) gyuto.  This doesn't mean I like it more, because I don't... but I think it's a good steel to work on, even for a beginner -- or relative beginner -- for sharpening.  The knife is very thin without being laser-thin. 

I might have had a less needy particular knife than most others, though -- I don't know. I'm not reporting a major-reprofile need, but I'm the only purchaser I've seen report an overgrind, so perhaps more problematic than others in that regard.

I'd still recommend the Kagayaki CarboNext to anyone who has plans to sharpen their own knives, based on my experience.  It's got a very good, easily-sharpened steel for an entry-level knife, anyway, and once sharpened it's a good cutter.  I only wish I got a 270mm instead of 240mm.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

My recommendation was based completely on not being a knife geek like the rest of you guys. I was having conversation. That knife fit what was asked for, in my view. Would you admit though, that it _"doesn't suck"?_  A while ago I asked about _"affordable to me"_ laser knives. That was one suggested to me. _*TY*_ Trooper.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

IceMan said:


> My recommendation was based completely on not being a knife geek like the rest of you guys. I was having conversation. That knife fit what was asked for, in my view. Would you admit though, that it _"doesn't suck"_? A while ago I asked about _"affordable to me"_ laser knives. That was one suggested to me. _*TY*_ Trooper.


Does the Kagayaki Basic suck? Depends what you're comparing it to. It's not as good as either the Fujiwara or the Tojiro, largely because the quality control isn't as good. Kagayakis run "iffy." In a horse race of entry level Japanese stainless knives it doesn't totally suck, but it's not among the best of breed either.

Nor, by any stretch of the imagination, is it a laser. Whoever told you so was poorly informed himself and did you a disservice.

I believe the request was for _best_ knife near a certain price point, and the Kagayaki Basic isn't among them -- in my opinion, of course -- for reasons given in my earlier post, and here as well.

BDL


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*LOL*_. I qualified everything I said. _"I'm not a geek"_ and _"I was just having conversation"_. It's $90. Do you, from what you know about me, think I'll ever buy a $90 knife? Outside of that one(1) exception time when I just had to buy something, I don't think that will happen soon. I'm not all that happy I bought what I did, or spend the kinda money I did either but sometimes though, a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

You qualified just fine, IceMan, and got the discussion rolling, and brought out a knowledgeable opinion from someone who is familiar with the brand and the particular steel.  Altogether a success, nothing to apologize for.


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who has posted their suggestions, advice, and experience with professional knives on this excellent thread. I wish I would have come across this site BEFORE I dropped a healthy chunk of change for my MacPro knife. sigh.

Boar, you seem to like the MacPro knife, and so I'd like to ask you why you think it is a better knife than others? The reason I ask is that I purchased the MacPro Chef's knife about 3 or 4 years ago, however, I feel as though it lost it's edge and became dull too quickly...after only about 6 to 8 months of mostly daily home use only. Is that the norm?

Because it was the first good knife I've ever owned, I've babied that knife and always wash it by hand, dry it, and put it back into it's original box. I don't cut bones or anything even remotely that dense, and yet, it doesn't seem to keep it's edge very long. Because of the investment, and my naivete, I am scared to death of sharpening it myself for fear of ruining the knife's edge, and so I take it to a local guy who sharpens knives, scissors, etc. I only chop on a wooden cutting board or an antibacterial white polypropylene cutting board. To my knowledge, I've done everything right to take care of my knife. Is it possible that I purchased a defective knife? Or, that the person who is sharpening it doesn't know what he's doing?

I've considered purchasing a high quality whetstone and learning how to sharpen it myself. Is it terribly difficult to do so? And, if I choose to go that route, is it too easy to screw up my knife for good? Also, is there a particular method or brand which you recommend?

I'm sorry about all the dumb questions, however, I'm only an at-home cook (wannabe chef) with no professional training.

Any advice you can offer me is greatly appreciated.

P.S. Your screen name and avatar are brilliant, imho. :- )

Quote:


boar_d_laze said:


> ...That said, it's now selling for roughly the same price as a MAC Pro which is an altogether better knife. ...
> PS. Curious as to what you don't like about MACs. Does it include MAC Pro? Please share.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Shoot. I'm a professional. I use $10 knives. My 5-knife roll can be replaced for <$100. Don't apologize for your questions. We all like or dislike whatever, for whatever the reasons are. Asking questions means you're not dumb at all. I say goofy stuff all the time. I'm still here. Sharpening is just a learned skill. It's not rocket surgery. _"6-8 months of daily use"_ is a lot of use I believe. Knives need to be sharpened much more regularly than that. Maybe the guy you're using is not so good, I don't know, but I've seen that before. 


> I'm sorry about all the dumb questions, however, I'm only an at-home cook (wannabe chef) with no professional training.


Until _*BDL*_ comes back to give you more help _*(he's good for that)*_, go watch the videos this guy gives. Entertain and educate yourself a little.



http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sharpening-tutorials.html


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

6 months between sharpening seems like it's holding an edge for a long time, actually!

Learning whetstones is not hard, but you don't do a great job until you put in some hours.  That or... there's another thread here which talks about the (and which) Chef's Choice machine, or using a pull-through and ceramic honing rod... each of which is less good than the preceding suggestion as far as getting a refined edge, but each of which has advantages in terms of ease/time and expense.

The usual advice with Japanese waterstones is to start with the medium grit (1000-2000), because it's probably what you most need anyway and it's much more forgiving of mistakes than something rougher (i.e. lower grit) -- that is, the coarse stone removes more metal in fewer strokes, so you can hurt your knife if you haven't developed the ability to hold a more steady angle on the knife.  Coarses grit stones are for reprofiling the blade or faster thinning behind the edge, which you won't want to do right away.  Eventually, yeah.  And you'll want something higher.

You might want to get the three-stone set (as a way of saving expense in the longer term) from CKTG. You'll want to figure out something about flattening, too.  There are some very current threads here that deal with all that, so I'll stop rather than repeat someone else's experience.  I'm a n00b sharpener and don't have the experience with a very wide variety of options for stones and methods... I like my set up just fine, but it's not what I'd recommend to someone else beginning.  Not the price-point decisions someone else should make.  IceMan is right -- it's not "rocket surgery" (which is a bizarrely useful phrase, from now on).

But there are plenty of reasons to do something else, too.  Like find someone else who you're sure is a good sharpener, or buy a machine, or a jig set up, or.... etc.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I've used MACs exclusively for the past ten (10) years and I hone *every* time I use them and (BDL, close your eyes now) touch them up on the RollSharp once a day, maybe 5-10 strokes and they're as sharp or sharper than out of the box (OK, BDL, open your eyes now).

I am not aware of any knife that can be used for six days, let alone six months without some form of maintenance for the cutting edge!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Gastorgasmic1

It sounds like your just needing to touch up your edge more often, and that there is likely nothing wrong with the knife.

I do not own a Mac, but the ones I do own with similar steel do go a while between sharpening, but not nearly 6 months.

Plus the more you use them (and that poly board can speed up the process too) the more often they will need to be redone if you want to maintain a just sharpened edge. That just done edge is what I believe drives so many to just learn to maintain or sharpen themselves as it allows you to be able to do it as often and when you want.

Actually I could not imagine going 6 months, and after about a month or two of light use there is a difference you can feel (still sharper than anything I have owned before at this point though) and it is back to the stones, but seldom do I wait that long.

Thats just me, and I can be a little OCD at times, and honestly just really love how the knife feels when the edge is in top sharpness.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Sorry I missed your post and didn't get back to you sooner.

It's obviously time for me to start posting to my blog again and direct people there for this sort of basic question. I get it a lot.

With nearly every knife, regular sharpening is a fact of life. An important... no... critical fact of life. I try to make that crystal clear several times in every "which chef's knife should I buy" question to which I respond. High end knives -- expressly including MAC Pro -- are not immune to the need. If anything, they exhibit the difference between sharp and dull more clearly than their less-good brethren.

That brings us back to you. Yes, you need to sharpen your knife a lot more often. If you're a home user who cooks nearly every night and strongly relies on his chef knife for prep, your sharpening schedule should be in the neighborhood of every 8 weeks, and no less than every 12.

Pete gives me a hard time about using a Rollsharp as though I disapprove, which I don't. MAC also recommends it. I'm certainly not against them. They're effective without too much effort, and not actually harmful which puts them among the best single-stage pull throughs. They're also set at an Asian angle. But I don't think it -- or any single stage pull through -- will get most of the goodness out of a MAC Pro.

I'll be more than happy to discuss which of several sharpening methods will work best for you if you want.

Knife edges go out of true -- largely from impact. Impact is another fact of knife life; even for instance, from chopping on a good board. The way to correct this is on a rod hone, aka a "steel." I'm a big believer in frequently using a honing rod for almost every knife which isn't (a) too hard; or (b) too asymmetric. Your MAC is one of the great majority of knives which should be honed regularly. An Idahone fine ceramic hone (which CKTG sells the "fine" as the "1200") is the best choice for nearly everyone looking for a single hone. 12" is the right size for any knife kit which has a knife longer than 8". The 12" Idahone is around $30 with a wooden handle.

Rods are something else we can discuss if you like, but we'll almost certainly come back to the Idahone when we get to brass tacks. If you're interested, start by reading Steeling Away. It will also teach you how to use one.

There's a reason I'm separating sharpening from truing as concepts. It's always a bad idea to use any hone aggressive enough to sharpen on any decent, fine edged knife like your MAC Pro. If you like, read this as well.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Thank you, IceMan, for making me feel welcome and not too dumb. lol.  Actually, I know that one doesn't have to drop a bundle of cash in order to buy good knives.  I recently picked up a set of like 4 or 5 Ceramic knives from Costco for $30.00, and they slice tomatoes more thinly than my Mac Chef knife has.  I now wish I had purchased two packs of these because my son chipped the Ceramic Chef knife by dropping it into the sink. 

I am most definitely going to go watch the videos you suggested as soon as I log off from here.

Wishing you a wonderful week ahead,

~Yvonne


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks Wagstaff...for the excellent information and education.  From what I've gathered, the majority of you here like ordering from CKTG, so that in itself is very valuable information.

Happy Chefing!

~Yvonne


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm such a Noob, I didn't even know _how long_ a good knife should hold its edge. Thanks all, for learnin' me the errors of my ways.

And here I've been hatin' on my Mac's and didn't even know how long they were supposed to remain sharp. Shame on me. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Quote:


PeteMcCracken said:


> I've used MACs exclusively for the past ten (10) years and I hone *every* time I use them and (BDL, close your eyes now) touch them up on the RollSharp once a day, maybe 5-10 strokes and they're as sharp or sharper than out of the box (OK, BDL, open your eyes now).
> 
> I am not aware of any knife that can be used for six days, let alone six months without some form of maintenance for the cutting edge!


Oh, wow, Pete, I was not aware that good knives needed sharpening that often. Thank you for opening my eyes to this fact, and to the fact that what my knives are missing is some good ole fashioned tender-lovin' care. lol.

Oh, and I think you're safe...it doesn't appear that BDL got wind of your RollSharp. :- )


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Quote:


LennyD said:


> Plus the more you use them (and that poly board can speed up the process too) the more often they will need to be redone if you want to maintain a just sharpened edge. That just done edge is what I believe drives so many to just learn to maintain or sharpen themselves as it allows you to be able to do it as often and when you want.
> 
> Actually I could not imagine going 6 months, and after about a month or two of light use there is a difference you can feel (still sharper than anything I have owned before at this point though) and it is back to the stones, but seldom do I wait that long.
> 
> Thats just me, and I can be a little OCD at times, and honestly just really love how the knife feels when the edge is in top sharpness.


Thanks Lenny. You bring up another excellent point...that being that the poly cutting board most likely hastens the knife losing its sharpness. That said, what exactly is the best, or rather kindest to one's knives, type of cutting board? And, this question is up for anyone with knowledge and expertise of this matter. I've got a rather gorgeous, but hard, butcher-block cutting board, and I feel it is just too hard on the knife's edge. I also use various poly/nylon type boards which I believe to be softer on the blade, however, from what I've been reading lately, aren't that biologically safe to use in the kitchen due to the sharp knife cuts and organisms going deep into the plastic.

And, now that I think about it, it probably wasn't 6 months...woe is my memory. I probably went about three to four months from the time I first purchased my knives, to the time they first needed to be sharpened. But, still, I'm reading here...that is still too long to go beween sharpenings.

~Yvonne


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Thank you, again, BDL, for your very informative and educational insights and website.

I wish to send you sincerest condolensces on the passing of your father. I'm very sorry to have read about his passing. There's nothing in life that can prepare us fully for the passing of our beloved parents, though a highly competent counselor can help us through the grieving process/stages. I do wish that with time the memories of your father will become even happier, and his voice ever present. May he rest in peace. 

Sincerely,

Yvonne


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Quote:


boar_d_laze said:


> Sorry I missed your post and didn't get back to you sooner.
> 
> It's obviously time for me to start posting to my blog again and direct people there for this sort of basic question. I get it a lot.
> 
> ...


No problem, BDL. I've skipped on over to your site and taken a gander at it. It's a very nice site, and very pleasant to the eye. Thank you for directing me to it, and for sharing all of your experience, knowledge, and wisdom with all of us. With each and every post I read on here, and your discussions with other chefs, as well, I am able to glean a bit more insight than the time before. Watching Mark Richman's videos on knife-sharpening, coupled with several folks' words of encouragement here, make me realize that knife sharpening is nothing I need be afraid of. In fact, he makes it appear much easier than it probably is. That said, I am ready to plunge in headfirst. :- )

At this early stage in my knife sharpening, do you believe I should begin on something as aggressive as a 'steel,' or should I first cut my teeth on a waterstone?

Ok, so I'm off to bed with your articles on "Steeling Away," and "Dulling Thoughts." And, wow, I just came across your recipe for Fra Diavolo. I think I'm really in trouble now, wondering just how many hours I'll get "lost" while on your site. I just hope I don't get DVT from sitting for so long. lol.

Again, I thank you BDL, and all the wonderful folks at this site.

I send you all wishes for a wonderful week ahead.

~Yvonne


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OMG. This is starting to look like another case where a _"group-hug"_ could be just around the corner. I think I'm gonna puke.

    

Grilled Oysters with Fra Diavolo Sauce

Potato Salad Fra Diavolo

Fra Diavolo Jambalaya

Porterhouse Steak with Fra Diavolo BBQ Sauce and Cherry Peppers in Vinaigrette

Shrimp Fra Diavolo


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> [...] At this early stage in my knife sharpening, do you believe I should begin on something as aggressive as a 'steel,' or should I first cut my teeth on a water stone. [...]


The right steel, used the right way is not a sharpener. It's a quick and easy way of truing (straightening) an edge which has gotten a little wavy from impact (usually on the board). The best steel for almost everyone is an Idahone fine ceramic. On the CKTG site, Mark (the owner) calls the Idahone fine's "1200." It is decidedly not aggressive, and used as described in "Steeling Away" (i.e., a couple of quick, gentle strokes on each side), won't hurt anything.

Steeling is one of those maintenance things which saves you from doing a lot of other maintenance. You won't sharpen as often, but you'll still sharpen plenty. If you've decided to freehand, you'll need bench stones, and if you choose to use water stones, you'll need someway to flatten as well. Before making stone recommendations -- or even recommending stones at all for you -- lets drill down on your knives.

CKTG is a great place to buy from. I recommend it highly. There are several other very good retailers who carry knives and equipment CKTG does not.

Mark has a number of good stones, and is a very good place to establish a beginner's water stone set.

So? What knives do you have now? Are you going to buy some new ones? Have any idea what you find interesting? How about, how much you'll spend?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

As I am reading all the replies etc and seeing how it is leading to "which stones" I was thinking that there is something this site is missing.

That is a sticky or two where threads that really answered most questions well could be made to stay at the top of the list.

I mean I do not think anyone could have more questions on sharpening than I had, and much as I truly do enjoy paying everyone's previous help forward (heck who doesn't like to share all their newly learned information as if they were born with it etc lol) in new threads etc wouldn't be easier for all newcomers to just read a couple threads full of the information they are looking for so that they can then start off with all the really good questions


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Quote:


IceMan said:


> OMG. This is starting to look like another case where a _"group-hug"_ could be just around the corner. I think I'm gonna puke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're too funny, IceMan. We don't mind you puking, man, just turn AWAY from the Fra Diavolo. ;-)


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## gastrorgasmic1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Quote:


boar_d_laze said:


> The right steel, used the right way is not a sharpener. It's a quick and easy way of truing (straightening) an edge which has gotten a little wavy from impact (usually on the board). The best steel for almost everyone is an Idahone fine ceramic. On the CKTG site, Mark (the owner) calls the Idahone fine's "1200." It is decidedly not aggressive, and used as described in "Steeling Away" (i.e., a couple of quick, gentle strokes on each side), won't hurt anything.
> 
> Steeling is one of those maintenance things which saves you from doing a lot of other maintenance. You won't sharpen as often, but you'll still sharpen plenty. If you've decided to freehand, you'll need bench stones, and if you choose to use water stones, you'll need someway to flatten as well. Before making stone recommendations -- or even recommending stones at all for you -- lets drill down on your knives.
> 
> ...


Hi again, BDL. Thanks...I now understand the different uses of a stone versus a steel, however, since my knives are all still practically new, is "flattening" something I need to do right now, or as the knives wear? Below is my response, which I left at the other thread by mistake:

BDL,

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your kind offer of help, and then to hold my hand through it, too...what else could a woman wish for. <bats her eyes at BDL>

So, to the first order of business...my knives. The best knives I currently own are as follows:

Mac PKF-30 Paring knife

Mac "Mighty" MTH-80 Chef Knife

Mac BS Serrated Bread Knife made of molybdenum steel

The serrated bread knife has been the best one, out of all three, to retain its sharpness and ability to slice tomatoes thinly. Am I correct to think that a serrated knife is never sharpened?

The old knives I plan to practice on are the newer Chicago Cutlery. I had wondered if my mind was playing tricks on me, as I too remember Chicago Cutlery making excellent knives long ago. Thanks to y'all here, I now know that the quality of their knives have, in fact, deteriorated.

With regard to which new knives I'm planning on purchasing...I'd love your, and others' here, suggestions. I purchased the three above-mentioned knives figuring that they would cover the majority of a home cook's needs, however, when the Mac Chef knife didn't hold it's edge very long, I was immediately disappointed and so have lost 'the love,' if you will, for my Mac's. Perhaps with your help I'll regain that love once again, but if you feel there is a superior knife to the Mac I most definitely want to hear about it and why you like it so.

What I hope to achieve with my knives. Well, after reading your post that you could cut your arm hairs with your knives...I definitely like that idea, not that I have arm hair to cut, mind you. lol.

I very much enjoy cooking up a storm in my kitchen, however, I like to have tools which are in prime working condition. And, obviously, my Mac's are not there right now. I like being able to cut a tomato very thinly, though to be honest, I don't think I could do that even when my Mac's were brand new. sigh. THAT is what I truly seek and desire to be able to do with my knives.

I'm willing to invest as much time as necessary learning how to sharpen my knives properly. Being old school, I know that anything worth having is worth waiting for, and as such am not looking for the "quick fix." With regard to how much I'm willing to spend....I'd like to spend a reasonable amount, though not break the bank, to achieve the results worthy of a good set of knives to begin with. In other words, I wouldn't take my Ferrari to Jiffy Lube for an oil change.

All that said, I believe Lenny mentioned something about the hardness of the blade steel with regard to the size of the burr. Honestly, I have no idea how hard the blade steel is on any of my knives. How do I go about figuring that out?

I think that covers all of the preliminary questions you had for me, BDL.

Please know that I truly appreciate your help, and look forward to learning more from you and all the very nice folks here at this site.

~Yvonne


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Honestly, I have no idea how hard the blade steel is on any of my knives. How do I go about figuring that out?


Lookie here 

http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=261&cat=MAC+Professional+Series&catidex1=72


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

MAC doesn't publish hardness numbers or alloy types for any of its lines, and the 57-61 HRC range published at EE doesn't help much. There's quite a difference between 57 and 61 -- which is also a critical range. You can expect almost any knife softer than 56 will require a lot of steeling, while any knife harder than about 62 is probably too hard and brittle to steel,

A well informed speculation is that MAC Pros are most probably hardened to an honest 59-60 HRC, and most probably made from VG-1. Your SB 105 (bread knife from the Superior Line) is the same material with the same hardness.

Rockwell "C" hardness numbers are unreliable because the test itself isn't what you'd call exact. It's an "indentation test" consisting of screwing a hardened, pointed rod into the side of the knife, and counting the number of turns from contact to permanent deformation. There are a lot of variables the test doesn't control, data is difficult to interpret, and as with most product testing of mass-produced items, the tests must be "statistically valid" (large enough number of samples, testing from different product runs, etc.) and the results presented as a matter of statistical analysis (for instance, a "1000 hour light bulb" means relentless testing, and a better than 1000 hour mean failure rate, plus or minus very little and within one standard deviation). None of which happens with knives.

Because "C" hardness is an indentation test, the results are at best a metaphor unless your prep routine consists of pounding pointy things into your knife. Other aspects of hardness such as scratch and impact are more meaningful. But if knives are actually tested, the results aren't available.

As if that weren't confusing enough, manufacturer supplied hardness data tends to run [ahem] optimistic.

While you can predict some performance qualities based on Rockwell numbers -- they aren't necessarily what you'd expect. For one thing, the general belief that harder is always or at least usually better, isn't true. "Better" depends on a lot of things, and harder may or may not be one of them -- in fact higher C hardness may be "worser."

Finally, you can learn a lot more from using and sharpening a knife than you can from "C" numbers.

It's a good question, though. Why do you ask?

BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

This is probably too late to address the potential purchaser, but I don't know of anything as good as the Kagayaki CarboNext for the same money.  It's very similar to the Kikouichi line (they were once OEM'ed by the same company).  I have an Ichimonji TKC and a CarboNext of the same size and despite being just over 2/3 the price, the CN actually exhibits better F'n'F.  Both seem to take and hold an edge equally well and the (well founded) rumor is they're the same steel & the same blade with slightly different finish (different brands use a different bolster, for example).

The CN really does behave like carbon steel on the stones.  It takes a screaming edge and sharpens up very easily.  It can be made to patina but I've never seen any rust so far.  This is just one guys experience but all the CN's I've seen were pretty well ground.  I personally have two of them, a 240mm gyuto and a 300mm suji.  Both were pretty much perfect.  A friend from another forum also purchased three of them (120mm petty, 210mm gyuto & 300mm suji) and had them shipped directly to me to sharpen and send to him.  They too were perfect.

One word, though- they have a pretty poor factory edge.  Only one of the five was acceptably sharp to me.  That's really not a big deal since I almost always wind up sharpening a new knife before I use it but it might be to you.  And the folks I've spoken to that bought the "Extra Sharpness" option said they were very disappointed.

But once you get it sharp it's all to good.  Great edge retention and a screaming edge off the stones.  And if it matters to you they go with Japanese natural stones like PB goes with J.


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