# Glad I don't...



## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

One of the best things I did was put a TV in the B&B kitchen--atleast I get to see the news that way.

While prepping I watched, horrified as yet another high school was hit by tragedy. I am so glad that I don't have children in schools right now! Seeing the panic on the parents faces as they wandered through a parking lot of close to 2000 kids, searching for their baby--and having no idea where to find them! I can only imagine the pain, horror and helplessness that they felt and I know that it is something I for one never want to have to live through!

I feel for anyone out there touched by this horrible event. I send you my prayers and best wishes.

lynne


----------



## lorib (Jan 3, 2001)

It's amazing how I get the news on Chef Talk now! So sad to hear this, it's one of the reasons that I am homeschooling my son.......
I'll go catch the news : (


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear Friends:

I am suddened too by the this violent crime. It seems that we have not learned anything from our past mistakes. The human race keeps failing its children. I can't even begin to imagine the pain that these parents must feel for the loss of their children.

I will never forget the lady that my wife and I met in Ukraine a few years ago. She was a teacher forced in prostitution by the need for extra money to purchase drugs for her children who suffered by thiroid cancer caused by the Chernobyl accident. What a tragedy. We tried to help her as much as we could. I will never forget the love and passion for her children that I saw in her eyes. I cannot help it but every time that I hear of children suffering, I think of her.


----------



## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

At 43 my sister decided to do an abrupt career change and become a school teacher in Calif. I've been keeping up with all she's doing to accomplish this, and yesterday she had mentioned while substituting (she's at an elementary school), they had to do "lockdown" training. I don't have kids but maybe this training is the norm in school these days. I said lockdown in elementary? Then today yet another shooting.


----------



## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

You know, one of the super scary things is that this kid talked. He tried to recruit amongst his friends (thank God they all turned him down!). One of the boys mentioned it to his father(not the shooter's father). The father asked the shooter what the deal was and the boy convinced him that it was all a joke.

NO ONE EVER NOTIFIED THE SHOOTER'S FATHER (who he lives with), SCHOOL AUTHORITIES OR LAW ENFORCEMENT!!! 

The other father (not the suspect's) says he'll never forgive himself for not acting. He for once had the chance to do something to prevent another parent's kids for loosing their life and he did nothing! He says he will live with that guilt for the rest of his life. 

I think we need to learn a lesson here. Nurture our kids, give them the attention they crave, know what is going on their lives, be observant and listen. Don't be afraid to act!


----------



## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

My wife is an 8th grade science teacher and every time I hear news like this spreading around the office my stomach drops. 

The De Anza Jr College "almost massacre" that happened a few weeks back is about 1 mile from my job. It's quite an eerie feeling when it's in your backyard.

logan


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Many of my friends would like to move to the US for work but many say they wouldn't want to raise a family there because of the frequency of this type of occurance. I usually respond by saying that the US is not worse off than we are, we just have a 10th of the US' population and therefore proportionally less crime in schools. Americans, what do you think? Am I right? We Canadians are exposed to the same culture, TV, movies, authors, etc as you are. I'll get in trouble for saying this but the differences between us are not that large. Yet we don't seem to experience the same juvenile crime rate as you do south of the border. Are my initial instincts correct? Or are things really worse in the States and if so, why?


----------



## m brown (May 29, 1999)

The difference is we have guns Anneke. 
The NRA thinks this is good. But we do not need a malita to protect ourselves anymore that is why we have an army. No person has the right to bear arms when we are not in a state of civil war. I wish the government would wake the **** up and make guns illegal. period. they are disasters waiting to happen, every few seconds. it is really sick. 
I can't believe I have to ask a parent if there are guns in their house before my kids can go over to play. 

Pay attention to your children, they don't go on auto-pilot after grade school.


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I am troubled, I am concerned,I am moved,I am scared,I love my family. Be true to your children..tell them they are special,be as strong as you can be....don't let them down,be there parent not there best friend.

A moment of silence for these children..
Plant a tree. I planted a colombine spruce in my back yard after the tradigy in colorado and me,my wife and two children lite a candel and said prayers.
It seems the colorodo spruce will have a new nieghber, a weeping willow 
Be kind,
cc


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

We have guns here too, most are properly registered and stored, as they should be.

I'm not sure that making guns illegal will have an impact on crime as it doesn't change a criminal's mind set. THe only real consequence is the development of a sophisticated black market. Keep in mind most crimes are not committed with the perpetrator's own gun. There are lots of stolen guns out there and if they don't come from dad's closet, they'll come from across the border somewhere where another mafia will make money.

I hear and respect what you are saying M Brown, but I think something is going on in kids' minds that we need to figure out in hurry. That's where parents should start looking first.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Amen Cape Chef.


----------



## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

CC,You brought tears to my eyes...

mbrown, anneke -- we have to teach people how to become families again.


----------



## m brown (May 29, 1999)

sad but true. 
my mom used to go through our stuff when we were kids. she says you have to, to save your children from making deadly mistakes. she was referring to drugs and such, now we have to look for bombs, guns and hate literature.
planting something in memory of tragedy is a wonderful way to teach your children compassion and empathy. thanks cc.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

My mom knew she wouldn't find drugs; she was after my love letters! She made sport of it though and now we don't talk much. But I turned out ok. SHe might have been a tyrant but at least she took an interest. It's up to parents to raise their kids, not teachers or the system or TV. There are such wonderful examples of great parents out there who do nothing extraordinary but are there for their kids and spend enough time with them to understand how to read them. They are true heros today. Bless you.


----------



## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Where did he get the gun? 

When was the last time you heard of an incident like this in, say France, where private gun ownership is rare? Do they have fewer rights than we do? I think not, and I'd love to have many European countries' education and child care systems. 

The key to this horrible story is that the adults did not do what adults are supposed to do.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Funny, I'm 47 and grew up in the California desert. We all owned firearms and did lots of hunting and plinking. If there were differences to settle, we always discussed things that occasionally led to fisticuffs. The idea of using firearms to settle differences never entered OUR heads.

The problem these days is parental neglect, much of it arising from single parent families.


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear Crudeau:

Eloquently stated.


----------



## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

Can't blame it all on the media---many things have changed as well. 

So many kids are left unsupervised by their parents after school. I guess I was lucky because someone always seemed to be home for me after school. I can't imagine what it's like for these kids to come home every day to an empty house, left up to their own devices, and their tired folks come in after a hard day's work at 6pm, 7pm, or later. 

If thelogg is reading, De Anza is where I went to junior college!


----------



## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

Crudeau: It's true, hard to live on one income these days. Within my circle of friends here in WA and in CA..a few (6) have left their jobs over the last few years, given up a lot (careerwise) with LOTS of cutting back on the homefront, to be with their kids-and help them through some difficult issues with school/depression/learning disabilities. 

Of course they're not single, so they do have the other income to rely on. Having many friends (and family members) who are single and struggling financially, I know this would be impossible.


----------



## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

Hopefully there are 2 things that can help foster the family time spent or less time for kids spent alone, and maybe people need to learn not to overextend themselves financially and that a good life doesn't necessarily mean bigger and better.

I have a friend that took a position with a school system (chef manager--definitely not a glamour job!) -- but, she's at work while her son is in school and gets home 1/2 hour after he does. She dedicates that extra time to being the best mother (and father) to her son that she can be! She's got excellent benefits; but a nowhere job. The acrifice she made so she can help with homework, go to ball games, cub scouts, etc. Maybe once he's older; she may go back to the freestanding restaurant work she loves so much, but in the meantime, she feels she has a duty.

Hopefully, with technology being more widespread and telecommunications being available to everyone, there may be more people who will spend time eith their kids--the key is to use the home office wisely and not hide away in it. Maybe work off hours or flex time so those important afterschool hours are covered. Share time with your neighbors--the kids life you could be saving could be yours-or theirs. 

I too am so thankful Mom was always home when I got there. She was my sounding board -- maybe I vented because I was picked on or teased, got it out of my system and relaxed. Life went on. For kids that never see their parents, who do they get to discuss their feelings and hurts with? You see too many parents come home and disappear into a bedroom to play on the computer or settle in to watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" without ever really paying attention to our future, our kids.

Sorry for the soap box, but I've vented now and I, too, feel better for it!


----------



## palmier (Oct 17, 2000)

I was walking by a TV yesterday, when I heard about the shootings. The newscaster was interviewing a friend of the culperate. The camera kept panning the parents who were standing behind a police line, waiting to pick-up their children. I just had to put down my head and pray.
I've got two great kids of my own. I make sure to tell them every day that I love them.We dont always see eye to eye. My daughter (who is almost twelve) often wonders why I ask so many questions, when she wants to hang with her friends.Who's house, what time, are the parents home, etc etc. "It's not fair" she says..."other parents dont treat their kids like this".......
Yesterday, when I got home, my 8 year old son came tearing around the corner to jump at me to hug me, just like he always does. I then went to find my daughter. When I found her in her room, she asked me what the problem was. "Nothing" I said..."I just wanted a hug". I think she knows now why I ask so many questions.
If you have children...go tell them you love them. That's a start.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Crudeau, that's so underrated, isn't it? I've been saying that for years. How can a kid respect him mom if his dad can't? And vice-versa too! Parents are all about showing a good example. Lynne I really liked you piece too. Some parents have to realise that you can't always 'have it all'. If your kids are going to be a secondary priority, you should probably think twice about having them, or be prepared for a major shift in lifestyle.

I want to back track for a moment and express my concern over something that was said about films and the general media. My problem with the movies is not that they are getting increasingly violent (Shakespeare was more gruesome than any of them, by the way), it's that Hollywood feels obligated to keep the politically correct crowd happy by misrepresenting the true consequences of violence. Case in point: Terminator II: Arnold shoots til the cows come home but never actually kills anyone. Any action flick you see out there is like that: you see flashes and hear the clashing noises from gunfire, bombs etc, but film directors refuse to show just how much damage these actions would realistically cause. Everyone always escapes scotfree. And I won't even discuss Road Runner! If you are going to shoot a violent scene, at least be responsible enough to show the true consequences: they are ugly and tragic and real.

THe other thing that really pisses me off are all those pieces about jails in America. Joan Lunden did one recently. She toured a max security jail for women and interviewed the poor jail birds as if they were the victims. Not onece did she talk about their crime or about their true victims. THis is showing me that if you do a crime and get caught you have America's sympathy. It was infuriating! It's no wonder that it's considered cool to have a criminal record in some parts...


----------



## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

I see this thread spiraling around good parenting as a preventative to this awful outcome. As a 26-year educator, I couldn't agree more. Here's a little story (all names changed, of course): One day a couple of years ago, I observed John on the playground, kicking the daylights out of Joe's leg. John was grinning, ear to ear. I intervened, isolated the two, then walked John to the office. He was disciplined by the A.P., but I also imposed a lunch detention on him (isolated, with teacher supervision during lunch), and had to call his mom to let her know what he'd done. As I told her, she sighed loudly and said, "Not _again_!" I thought she was tired of hearing about her kid being in trouble, but I wasn't even close. Instead, she said, "Can't you people just let him be a kid?" 

That's an example of the kind of parenting I've seen from parents of kids who get in trouble. They make excuses for their kids' acts of violence, harassment and disruption in school- as well as academic underperformance. 9/10ths of the kids are normal, pleasant kids who would do just fine if this sort of c*** could be stopped. Instead, teachers have to spend 9/10ths of the time they spend disciplning on kids whose parents will ream you out for doing what any responsible parent ought to be doing.

Sorry I vented so long on a periferral issue, but this seems to be a thread and a time for venting!

[ March 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mezzaluna ]


----------



## seattledeb (Nov 5, 2000)

Mezz..how frustrating! That woman sounds like she falls under the "let the government/school/anyone else but me" school of parenting. Doesn't it also come down to personal responsibility or lack thereof these days?


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear Friends:

Lets not miss the point.

We live in a violent culture that fosters violence. Look at the box office hits. Which movies are the most popular? Look at the electronic games sales figures. Which games are the most popular? Violence has become the biggest part of our entertainment. We enjoy watching it and we pay billions every year to satisfy this craving. Is there something wrong with this? You bet there is!  

To say that taking guns away will solve the problem is at least funny. We need laws and regulations about responsible gun ownership. I got my first hunting license in Greece, my second in France and my third in California. In both European countries I had to pass several tests and I had to get a paper from the Justice Department that I did not have any criminal record. In France, the study book to pass the ttest was 500 pages. In Greece I had to pass both a written and an oral test. In both countries I was able to purchase a gun ONLY after I had obtained my license. In California I was asked by the gun store clerk to show him my DRIVER'S LICENSE!!!! I was able to buy a gun by just showing that I was licensed to DRIVE!!! What does that have to do with owning a gun responsibly, I have no idea! We need more gun regulation but the problem does not end there. The way our culture is developing, people will find other means to harm others.

Let's promote "Slow Food", "True Food", "American Poetry Month" etc... and let's teach our children that violence is not enbtertainment. 

I feel better now!


----------



## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

Another shooting today. Penn. highschool, female student. Last I read one person shot, not a fatality.


----------



## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

Crudeau...I don't think the media is to blame here. We could be considered the media because we discuss this on a public webpage, you think? I can't believe because someone sees something on tv, they go and do the same. These kids have problems with or without watching tv. It could stem from Dad hitting Mom, kid sees the way to get even with someone you don't like is to attack them. It is my opinion that this kind of thing is going to continue to happen because of a combination of many things (bad parenting, weapon availability, video games, violent music/movies, etc) and until all these things change, our kids will not. 

Not a happy outlook from someone married to a middle school teacher.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

The media is doing its job. If this is happening, we have a right to know. How else can we prepare and prevent these events? Wearing blinders isn't going to help.


----------



## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

As a teacher, I dread hearing the news in the springtime. My husband and I are both teachers in small rural schools, and we have had our share of tragedies--suicides, wrecks, just bad stuff. Usually, when school violence is trumpeted in the media, my students panic. We get lots of lectures about warning signs and such, and the kids want to talk a lot about whatever has happened. It is very weird that they have had absolutely nothing to say about the California shooting, at least not in my classes. And they won't have heard yet about the Pennsylvania one today. School violence has been around for a long time--they just used not to report it on the evening news like they do now. And when it was reported, it was handled differently. Somehow, I think it was better that way. There is a certain mentality that may lean toward copying flamboyant actions of others. For me, March to May are tough months to get through, and I could do without all the media fanfare. Yes, I agree, the public has a right to know. I'm just not sure what effect it has on some kids.


----------



## theloggg (Sep 28, 1999)

I saw Dateline last night and I thought they did a good job covering the story. The impression I got was they were taking the angle of "this kid said he was going to do it, take ALL threats seriously and tell someone." I think they made their point that no matter how much you think someone is "just kidding", it needs to be reported.


----------



## palmier (Oct 17, 2000)

I dont think the media is to blame. If we hide the problem, the problem still exists. I did however, make certain that we didnt watch the news that evening. I got to see a little bit of coverage during the day, and I didnt like the way reporters were searching for friends of the shooter. Almost looking for the most bizzar angle to exploit. A bit too much "dirty laundry".


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear Friends:

The media is to blame to the extent that journalism has become "tabloidy" and unreliable in its effort to become more profitable. Even my favor CNN has fallen into that category lately.

The media is not, however, to blame for the violence in our society. It is like blaming the messenger for the bad news he/she brings. Many ancient Greek tragedies already addressed this issue centuries ago. The problem is that in our effort to improve our society to compete with others, we have raised individualism and competitiveness to a level that is suseptible to almost turning violent. This is the root of the problem. The rest are simply symptoms of that cultural disease. This is my opinion.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Papa,
I see your point and I agree that the quality of the news is not always what it should be. On the other hand, one cannot blame the media for feeding people what they want to hear. If the media suddently started transmitting the news responsibly, and give a true balanced and educated view of things, no one would watch. I fno one watches, they go off the air. Once again, it's a pull rather than a push phenomenon.
People want reporters to give them as much dirt as possible; when they give facts, they want to be told whether they should be happy or upset about them. I guess that's a result of being bombarded with so much info everyday. Although frankly, I'm glad that all this info is available and would never want to go backwards in that respect.


----------



## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

I would agree that you can't blame the media alone for the occurence of tragic events such as these. I do believe that they should be held accountable for the way they report events and the lengths they will go to in order to do so. Remember the death of Princess Di in a car travelling at high speeds trying to escape the media? If I were to serve someone chicken and they were to contract salmonella poisoning, I don't blame the chicken and I'm definitely not allowed the luxury of saying I was just doing my job. Why shouldn't the press be held accountable in the same way I am? Certainly, freedom of the press is a right, but everything comes with a price. The price here is professional responsibility. A little less sensationalism and melodrama would be nice. Were I a journalist and I thought the way I was reporting events was even by a slight chance part of the problem, I would say, to h**l with the ratings, people are dying, I've got a responsibility *and the buck stops here!* 
Of course, the responsibility doesn't rest on the media alone; parents, teachers, friends, etc. of children also have to take responsibility. Hillary Clinton is right about one thing, at least: it takes a village.


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Home schooling, in my opinion, can only work if the parent is at least as good a teacher as the teachers in school. It takes a lot to become a teacher, much training and experience. Few parents, well meaning as they may be, are therefore qualified...


----------



## lorib (Jan 3, 2001)

Anneke, As a homeschooling Mom, I have to disagree with you. This is a whole 'nother subject, but to keep it brief, I do not do "crowd control", my day is not spent getting kids to sit in their seats, etc. etc.. I am merelly a resouce and facilitator to a very bright 12 year old who now has access a limitless range of possibilities, not just what is imposed by canned curriculums, or the limitations of my own knowledge. We are very fortunate to live near a major metro area, so we have all kinds of activities to choose from, all taught by experts - eg. there is a upcoming event at the Museum of Science on cloning - not taught by a teacher, but a scientist active in the field. Well, I won't go on, I just wanted to make a point......I am open to more discussion on this subject if anyone is interested....

Lori


----------



## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

As the Father of two young children, the world we live in scares me badly. It has also strengthend my resolve to be as good a parent as I can be. I like to consider myself a compassionate dictator. My house. My rules. But, here's the reason for the rules and a whole lotta love to go with them. The kneejerk reaction to this sort of thing is to ban guns and find blame. Video games, bad parenting, Eminem, Marilyn Manson,etc. In my day it was Alice Cooper, KISS, OZZY and violent movies. Does Eminem influence our kids? Yes, I believe so. Do these ultra-violent video games influence our kids? Yes, by taking the pain out of killing and glamorizing the killers. Do I think these types of things need to be banned? No. For better or worse, we (or most of us anyway) live in the freeist country on the earth. I and anyone else are free to pursue whatever dream I want as long as I don't violate the laws. *It is my responsiblity to teach my children what is inherently wrong with the messages being put forth by Eminem and others of his ilk. * It is also my responsiblity to teach my children the concept of empathy. A concept which is almost gone from todays society. To put yourself in the shoes of the other guy and see how your actions affect him is the first step towards making us a littler gentler, a little more tolerant and a lot safer. I have no doubt that as my kids grow up, there will be times when they "hate" me for being so invloved with their lives, but in today's society, it might be the difference between life and death. My 2 cents.

ps I'm not a gun owner and would be very happy to see them disappear. I am, however, a realist.


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

mofo1,

So well put.
There is nothing I can add to what you just said.

cc


----------



## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I listened to heavy metal and watched violent movies when I was a teen but never killed anybody. I think we all have fantasys about being a vigilante getting even with the people that did us wrong but some people can"t seperate fantasy from reality. On the gun issue I think they should be banned I'm tired of worrying some idiot kid is gonna take a shot at me if I look at him wrong. When I was a kid we settled disputes with our fists if you were the better man u won now every puny punk kid can get a gun and become an instant man. I hear the argument that we need guns to protect ourselves that is bs if somebody breaks into my house they might end up killing me but I'll take a few with me and without a gun.


----------



## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

I thought of one other thing I want to add. I believe that there are people who are just flat born evil and nothing anyone could do would change that. In the words of Kurt Vonnegut Jr., they are simply "bad machines."


----------



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Lori: I think you are one of the better teachers. 

I personally know someone who wants to home school her kids. They're not in school yet and already she cannot control them or teach them anything. She thinks school will somehow ruin them but she simply doesn't have the patience and mostly the DISCIPLINE to homeschool 2 kids. Please understand, I'm not knocking homeschooling. I just think it takes some very special parents.


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear mofo1:

I have to disagree with you on this issue. No one is born evil. Go to an orphanage and look at the children there. Can you tell the evil ones? 

Crime is not born. It is created and developed by our environment. Children are innocent. It is elsewhere that we need to search for the source of violence.


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I could not agree more Papa..
Children are born with the inert sence of love. They need our help and nurturing and love to help them grow.No one is born "evil" the thought of that is almost scary. We need to take responsibility for our children and our sociaty,only then will peace flow in the blood of children
cc


----------



## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

Gentlemen,
I highly respect both of your opinions and agree to disagree without arguing. Bottom line is: know what is going on with your kids and love them as much as you can. Peace.
Chris


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Peace


----------



## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Peace


----------

