# Spelling mistakes



## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

I know that, as a member of a people that notoriously speaks awfully any foreign language (as you can see from my posts  ) I shouldn't ask this question, but it has always intrigued me. 
Why it's so difficult for you Americans to spell correctly foreign words? I noticed this the first time I went in US, just looking at the Italian restaurant menus. Apparently, finding a menu free from mistakes wan't possible...that's rather amazing, considering that looking for the correct spelling on a book or something like that should be a piece of cake.
More, I thought that a professional chef should KNOW the real name of what he's cooking!
Finally, I realized that you just DON'T CARE about spelling, even when you write in your own language - that's something unbelievable for we Italians.

Recently I read the theory of an Italian writer about this issue. He argues that English spelling is so irregular that it's practically impossible to avoid mistakes, so you don't care about them. On the contrary, Italian spelling is very easy and any mistake is severely censured when we are at school (we're supposed to spell correctly any word after our 8th year of life!), so we grow believing that spelling mistakes are very serious ones and try to avoid them also when writing a foreign language (this is, generally, the only thing we do correctly when we speak another language )

So, hoping that nobody has been hurted by my considerations, what's your opinion?

Pongi


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

There are several factors that come to mind which might play a role:

Is Italian a finite language as French is?
English is not. It is forever incorporating slang and coined words keeping the English Dictionary people on their toes writing new editions.

In my opinion, it is almost easier to write in a European language if you know the rules, phonetics and pronunciations are much more defined then they are here.

There is a huge difference in educational systems between countries. Here, the importance of spelling is dependent on which teacher you get, some are stricter than others and from year to year, and itÕs easy for many students to slip thru the cracks.

I don't believe it's that the menu writer's "don't care". I'm going to guess they are just ignorant and not taking the extra effort to have someone knowledgeable proofread the finished product, also, the actual chef may not write the menu.

To answer your question, perhaps Americans take for granted that most other countries learn English as a second language - to a level that most average Americans will never learn any other secondary language because they don't need to. Yes, it's arrogant, I know... but there are also those Americans who can write in other languages just as well as if they'd been born in that country, though they may be few and far between.


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## miahoyhoy (Jul 23, 2002)

Can you throw us some examples of these mistakes?

Are you referring to things like us writing Almondine when technically it's Amandine
and say, Veal Parmesan instead of Veal Parmigiana
or perhaps, Veal Zurich Schnitzelette for Gescnetzeltes

Many of these classic dishes are written thusly because of translation.
Almond is Amande
Parmesan is Parmigiana
Nobody outside of Switzerland can pronounce Gescnetzeltes properly.  

Personally as and American I do care about my spelling which is why I would not accidentaly spell the word "wasn't" as "wan't"

My balogna has a first name it's...

Jon


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## nancya (Apr 30, 2001)

Spelling and grammar errors are especially bad in translations. I'd think that one would have someone who actually spoke the language proofread, but that clearly isn't always the case.

It is not limited to English, however. I'm pretty sure I originally got the link to Engrish.com here at ChefTalk. I've been privileged to find many examples of poor translations across the net, however.

And as for my own speeling...I now use iespell whenever I remember to do so. It doesn't catch my grammar errors of course. Oh well.

Let's see, some more fine examples...

(Stolen from dribbleglass.com which seems currently unavailable)

In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable.

In a Belgrade elevator: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is then going alphabetically by national order.

In a Yugoslavian hotel: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid.

In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from a Russian orthodox Monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetary where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists, and writers are buried daily except Thursday.

In an Austrian hotel for skiers: Not to perambulate the corridors in the hours of repose in the boots of ascension.

On a menu in a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave you nothing to hope for.

On a menu of a Polish hotel: Salad a firm's own make; limpid red beer soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion.

In a Hong Kong supermarket: For your convenience we recommend coourteous, effecient self-service.

In a Hong Kong dress shop: Order your summers suit. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation.

In Germany's Black Forest: It is strickly forbidden on our Black Forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men & women, live together in one tent unless they are married for that purpose.

Swiss mountain inn: Special today--no ice cream.

Tokyo bar: Special cocktail for the ladies with nuts.

Norwegian cocktail lounge: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar.

Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty.

Acapulco hotel: The manager has personally passed all the water served here.

Car rental brochure in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage then tootle him with vigor.

Two signs from a Majorcan shop entrance: English well talking; Here speeching American.

A Finnish hotel's instructions in case of fire: If you are unable to leave your room, expose yourself in the window.

A notice in a Japanese hotel: Please not to steal towels. If you are not person to do such, please not to read notice.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The main thing to consider is that you're considering a menu in America, not Italy. See? I can't even spell the name of your country correctly from the Italian perspective. But it is correct English.

Consider, Cobnhavn becomes Copenhagen and so on and so on.
How the heck do we get Germany out of Deutschland?

It's not just a translation. It's often a transliteration.

Phil


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

phatch,

I couldn't resist, LOL!:

Names of Nations (Germany/Deutschland)


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

So now I don't care.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

I saw this howler in a shop window in Central London today,
"Closeing down next week". I wonder why??? 
How about this one,someone put a notice on a goods lift that stated the lift was,out of ordor. I think someone was having a bad day.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

Hukt oN FoNiX! It WerKT fER mE!


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Oh,I was not speaking of grammar errors! From this view we Italians are unrivalled. In example, since this is a food site you should like to know how to use a neapolitan coffee maker.
So, this is the original "english" translation of the

"INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE USE OF THE NEAPOLITAN COFFEE-POT "A. PASSEGGIO" 

1)To fill before the inside part of the coffee-pot of coffee-powder.
2)To screw in the filter on the inside-part of the coffee-pot.
3)To fill of water the superior-body till the little hole.
4)Introduce the inside-part of the coffee-pot in the superior-body (already filled of water before)
5)Put the coffee-pot with the spout on the superior-body and put it finally on the fire.
6)As soon as the water goes in ebullition, you will see the water coming out from the coffee-pot, just from the said little hole. Now, keep out the coffee-pot from the fire, upset it and remain it for some minutes in rest; in the meantime, the water will filter and will transform it in a very exquisite coffee, and you can serve it too."

Apart from that, sticking to the "spelling" topic I agree with mudbug. Although Italian changes with time like any other modern language, its phonetic rules remain very strict - one sound, one letter, with few exceptions. So, a correct spelling is mandatory, or you'll get another word. This doesn't happen with English.
But I'm not speaking about translations ... "Parmesan" instead of "Parmigiano" is OK. On the other side, if you write "Fettucini" or "Scallopini" or "Proscuitto" or "Spagetti Bolognaise" this isn't translation, it's misspelled Italian, so why not using the correct word?
As for transliteration, I can't agree. If I opened in Italy a KFC place and wrote on my menus "CHENTACHI FRAID CICHEN" you'd laugh loud, and I'd be totally wrong!

BTW...the correct Danish spelling for Copenhagen isn't Cobnhavn, but Kobenhavn (with the character for the Scandinavian throat "o" sound that I haven't on my keyboard) 

Pongi


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

As someone who teaches writing as well as literature (in English) I agree with the others here who have noted that English spelling is notoriously difficult. Sometimes words are spelled the way they sound and many other times they are not. :crazy: 
But many Americans seem to want to spell words that are from another language the way we would spell them if they were English and the way we would spell them if they were pronounced the way we mispronounce them. It reminds me of the way that many Brits I've been around while traveling in France speak French. They have the grammar and the vocabulary, but they insist on pronouncing French as though it were English: not a pretty sound, I can assure you. 

As for misspellings on menus, maybe restaurant owners fear that Americans wouldn't know what the dish was unless it was spelled the way we mispronounce it. 

And I LOVE the literal translations Pongi, Nancy and Leo. If you haven't read David Sedaris's "Jesus Shaves" from his book _Me Talk Pretty One Day_ or, better yet, heard him read it on NPR, I recommend it. He describes an international group of adult students trying to learn French in a class in France. And he gives a literal translation of what they say as they try to explain Easter to a Moroccan student in beginner's French. Here is an example:

"He call his self Jesus and then he die one day on two . . . morsels of . . . lumber . . . ."
"He die one day and then he go above of my head to live with your father. . . ."
"He make the good things, and on the Easter we be sad because somebody makes him dead today. . . ."
"Easter is a party for to eat of the lamb . . . One too may eat of the chocolate."


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Phoebe,i know some American people call U.K. citizens "Brits" but do you have to use this irritating term?I would rather be called a "Limey" than a "Brit".
Meanwhile back at the ranch:Spelling mistakes.
1)There are an incredible number of people in Britain who have a serious literacy problem.U.K. government figures put it at 7 million!!
2)I`ve met some of these people myself.I once had a Christmas card addressed to Leo(chefe). This was from another member of staff!!
3)Some more howlers,these are genuine i`m not making these up.This one from a takeaway in West Londonitza instead of pizza.How about this little gem from a pub just outside London:spegetti instead of spaghetti

There are quite a few people in colleges in Britain whose spelling is less than perfect.Please remember folks that English language is not a pure language but a mixture.It stops people getting bored.


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

Sorry Leo. I didn't mean to offend. But, in my own defence, I picked up the term after hearing it used by several different friends over the years to describe themselves as well as fellow citizens of Great Britain. I just have come to think of it as a term of affection.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Phoebe,i`m not offended at all by your terminology.I`m absolutely certain that you are a sincere person.Your friends are leading you astray. 
p.s.the "p" of the "pitza" seems to have vanished.I may have joined that 7 million,oh dear! I`ll have to wait until someone comes up with the old line:Can`t read or write,then fill out this form.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

We ate out recently and read that the special of the evening was Chicken DeJohn. We were left to wonder...

1. Is it a corruption of "de Jonge""? If so, chicken baked in butter, herbs and crumbs wouldn't be bad.

2. Is it "dijon"? If so, the mustard would taste nice with the poultry.

3. Is it related to the American colloquialism for toilet? 

We had the steak.


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

OH DEAR! You don't mean to say that even the distinguished, elderly man with the (old style) BBC accent was putting me on?!! Vous dites des horreurs!   Who can one trust? 

And I just thought the "itza" was for "Itza Pitza!"


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

One younger person with whom I've worked (in Information Technology) blames his inability to spell on SPELLCHECKS afforded my computer software.

When I started my college education in '71 one of the first books I purchased was a new dictionary. Do people still buy them? How old is yours, everyone? Try reading at least one page per day from the dictionary; it's a real learning experience. :lips:


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

I own a dictionary that is about 16 years old and it has seen better days.It`s like an old pair of training shoes,something i seem to be reluctant to part with.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Leo, then I suggest that you get a new edition of your old friend. New vocabulary will have been included in the new edition.


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

However, if you are someone who gets grumpy about language additions and evolutions (someone not unlike me  ) you really don't want to see words like "lifestyle" standardized (I REALLY hate that term. Students often use it in place of "life." And I ask them if Jane Eyre had a "lifestyle" or if homeless people have a "lifestyle."  But I digress). And if you are also someone who doesn't always appreciate the way popular culture turns nouns into verbs, you might not like reading a dictionary entry that lists interface and impact as verbs. 

But not everyone is grumpy (and not everyone is me . . . I?  )


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Jane Eyre had not only a lifestyle but also a life. The latter serves as the whole premise of the novel! Just face it. I'm an old fashioned letterati and stick to the 3 R's.

I pray that within the next few weeks I can land a teaching job since I hate I.T.. It's such a soul - less profession. I'd really prefer elevating a field of cabbageheads to a level of spiritual enlightenment. You know, have you ever looked upon a classroom of pupils on the first day of class: eyes wide open thirsty for knowledge? It's that expression that really grabs me. Chalk, chalk and more chalk.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Kokopuffs,i must be a old stick in the mud!I agree with you and Phoebe that languages change.The way people speak English over here has changed a great deal from my childhood.I come from a large family,so i hear of lots of new slang terms from my 2nd cousins.
Btw,here`s some fresh spelling mistakes:
1)Corriander(two r`s?) 
2)biscit instead of biscuit.Oh dear!
Where will it all end?
:crazy:


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Leo, consider these points:

Over the last 30 years which astronautical terms have been included the dictionaries?

Over the last 10 or 15 years what kind of computer terms have also been included?

Culinary? For it, too, evolves.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Point taken,i`m reaching for a white flag.
I suppose eveything has to change,pluses & minuses as always.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

I`ve done it again,i missed the r in everything.Must be old age creeping in.


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh Leo, if all we lose is a little finger dexterity, I'll be thrilled.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Phoebe,i`ve worked out what it is,my thumbs get in the way!


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh darn. Aren't opposable thumbs supposed to be traits of a "higher order" of creature? Something to do with language formation and/or acquisition? Ironic. . . . . Or not. :crazy:


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Opposable thumbs are indicative of well developed frontal lobes whereas our highly evolved speech centers are located just posterior to the temporal region. Also higher functions characteristic of humanoids (save for politicians) are exemplified by a more evolved cerebral cortex, the outer "layer" of the brain (as opposed to the medulla - the core).


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Hmm...to tell the truth, we have two main language areas:

1) A "sensorial" temporal area (the one koko mentioned) for speech ideation

2) A "motor" frontal area for programming speech motor activity - VERY close to the motor areas of frontal lobe (of course, mainly to the motor area for mouth and throat muscles)

Pongi


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The anterior part of the brain, one of its principle functions is motor whereas the posterior part of the brain is primarily sensory. And within all of that scheme is "cross wiring' and interconnections. Here we're talking in generalities. And all of this is the reason that humans have the "highest foreheads". That said, politicians remain snakes.


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## lamington (May 2, 2003)

I've come to this fairly late... I have to take off my food-hat and put on my linguist-hat (my day job) for this:

Spelling: We can blame fixed spelling on Gutenberg and Caxton. Had they not invented and introduced the printing press then we would still have freeflow spelling (perhaps).

English spelling is very complex (but quite predictable, if you get all the little rules and exceptions) and this means that it presents a challenge for anyone who doesn't have a good feel for patterns, or doesn't have a really good visual memory (either skill helps). When kids read less in their school years, and hardly any well-written literature, their spelling goes out the window unless they have that underlying 'feeling' for language and spelling.

Menus and spelling: It's a case of (1) the care factor -- most of the time the spelling of a dish or ingredient could be checked really easily, but people can't be bothered; and (2) it's incredibly hard for people to remember the patterns of symbols and sounds in a foreign language unless they actually speak it (and then you're back to the issue of spelling skill as well), so it's only natural that menus will be peppered with disasters (and then we're back at the care factor).

You can rest happy in the knowledge that it's not just an English problem -- Swedish menus often massacre French and Italian names of dishes.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

This is just what I was saying...the type of errors you make speaking (or writing) a foreign language depends on the type of "linguistic mind" you have.

In example, we Italians, who regard spelling as something that must be correct, are generally pretty accurate also when spelling a foreign word. On the other side, since Italian syntax is very complex we tend to care very little about grammatical and syntax errors when speaking another language, and make huge errors 

But I also agree with Phoebe  . It's likely that some misspellings are deliberate, as many Americans wouldn't recognize the word if it was correctly spelled 
In any case, you're not the only ones! Italian commercials are full of words like "Ultrabrait", "Medinait" and things like that:lol: 

Pongi


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Good points, Lamington. What you've written agrees with everything I've learned about language acquisition, and about learning a second language at any time in life.


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## lamington (May 2, 2003)

I've just been reading the first chapter of A Cook's Tour (Bourdain) where he writes about his experiences in Portugal.

I don't know how or why, but of the handful of Portuguese words he uses, most of them are MISSPELT! Amazing. Sometimes he's written something Spanish, sometimes just added an extra vowel... This looks like a new dimension in the "care factor" we were discussing earlier.

--lamington


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I frequently find all kinds of editorial mistakes in Bourdain's books, the main reason I've stopped reading them. Not that they aren't entertaining; it's just that trying to read his butchered syntax, spelling and rambling subject matter tends to give me a rash. All he needs is a stronger editor who will stand up to his ego.
Pongi, I think you ought to ease up on Americans. My Italian landlord has lived here for over 20 years and still can barely communicate in English.
Most Americans do not speak, read or write Italian (unless they are of Italian descent)--sad to say, most any other foreign language, either. Educational budget cuts across the nation have forced the elimination of teaching foreign language in most elementary grades. The American population is made up of people descended from almost every country in the world. Thus teaching acceptable English to such a diverse population is a huge challenge.
Getting in a snit over a few spelling mistakes of foreign dishes on menus rings as kind of petty. Check your own English grammer before "calling the kettle black."


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## lamington (May 2, 2003)

Well, I moved on to the Vietnamese section fo Bourdain's book, and the mistakes are even worse, so yes, there is a dire lack of editing in that and other regards.

Hey, foodnfoto, perhaps having a go at Pongi isn't necessary or appropriate?! After all, Pongi's basic point was valid -- menus are often misspelt. It's one thing to learn a language, quite another to get a few terms right on a menu -- the latter exercise requiring virtually no knowledge of grammar or even the meaning of individual words at times, and most terms can readily be checked in a good food reference or even some dictionaries.

Misspelling occurs all over the place, not just in the US, though maybe it is worse there (I can't comment). The thread has already established that problems occur elsewhere.

--lamington


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Foodnfoto,

as Lamington kindly pointed out , I didn't want to criticize Americans, or maintain that we Italians are better than you. If you read my posts in this thread, I remarked many times that we generally speak foreign languages very poorly, and that I'm a typical Italian!
I was just wondering why you Americans tend to care so little about spelling, and referred this to culinary terminology and menu compilation just because this is a food site :chef: 

Pongi


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Spelling, grammar and pronunciation have always been important to me. Between computer chat and rap - The English language is suffering. People are abbreviating so radically, paring down words so much that you can barely recognize them. 

As far as foreign words, the only explanation I can offer is that our rules are different from other countries. For instance, the country of Qatar....In the US, there aren't any words (to my knowledge) where a "q" isn't immediately followed by a "u" so this country's name is commonly misspelled as Quatar.

Hispanic words quantify the descriptive words as well as the nouns where US English does not quantify a descriptive word. Some European languages also sex everything as either female or male which throws a wrench in spelling and usage.

I always try to look something up if I'm not familiar with the word, especially if it is foreign. For example, I'd never "wing it" if I were trying to spell a word that was German!


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Play more Scrabble Chiff. There's a few words in Engllsh with the Q and no U. Faqir for example, also spelled fakir, but both are acceptable. There are a few more.

Here's a list for Scrabble of all Q words not followed by a U, but may have a U somewhere else.

http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/new...ures/qnou.html


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## plum (Mar 17, 2001)

I think the main problem is that one's native language defines what rules you understand with spelling. As a linguist, I've always been someone who takes note of different patterns, but that's just me. Even as a graduate in Italian, I still sometimes have to check whether a letter is doubled (e.g. pizziccato or pizzicato?). Some people without good visual memory etc, as noted above, just don't see the difference because if English is your native language those patterns don't come up. It's like you can easily miss it because you're not primed to see it. For an Italian, these things are easy because they are supported by the understanding that the sound of the word is exactly matched by the spelling. 

However that doesn't explain why people don't realise it's a foreign language and make all the more effort to check. 

I always notice when menus have a misspelled word, and makes me think that the chef equally misunderstands the essence of that style of cuisine. This is undoubtedly unfair, because cooking and spelling are different skills, but as a writer-type person that's the way I see the world.

Plum.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Letter Q seems to be an issue everywhere! In Italian, it's the only chance we have to do spelling errors as the sound "koo" can be spelled both "cu" and "qu" (Scuola or Squola? Soccuadro or Soqquadro?) We also have those "q non u" words, but most of them are transliteration of Arab words and I don't think they can be considered "italian words". 
As plum said, your native linguistic patterns influence the errors you do when speaking a foreign language. In example, one of the most common mistakes we italians do speaking English is taking simple past for present perfect and vice versa. This is due to the fact that we have no rigid rules (Northern italians tend to use only present perfect, while Southern Italians prefer simple past) and think that both can work well in any case.
For the same reason, we are often wrong when using definite articles. Since in Italian in many cases it doesn't matter if you use them or not, we believe that also in English "it's just the same". In example, in Italian you can say either "Mi piace mangiare cioccolata" or "Mi piace mangiare la cioccolata", so we can't believe that in English you CANNOT say "I love eating the chocolate"...

Pongi


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