# Parmentier



## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

Does anyone recognize this as a knife cut? I've always thought Parmentier referred to a potatoes in a dish.

The competition I'm preparing for includes a knife skills exam. Looking at last year's competencies, participants were asked to demonstrate about 8 different cuts...all of which I recognize except Parmentier. I've looked high and low and can't find this. The chefs at school confess to being stumped as well...

anybody have any idea?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Hi Ziggy,

I may be wrong here, but I have to agree with you about parmentier being dishes prepared with potatoes,
I mean, it was Antione Parmentier whom wrote many things about food (not the least potatoes) in France, and made potatoes popular in France, so these dishes carry his name.

In my years in classic french kitchens, parmentier was always associated with a particular dish containing potatoes, and not a knife cut.

I don't know if this helps, or confuses you more 
If this cut is included in your practicum, please share with us what it is
cc


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

Yes, cape chef, you're thinking just like we've been....which is why we're all completely stumped. None of my chefs have heard of this in any kitchen or training they've been in or had - here or in Europe. 

For sure, if I figure this out, I"ll let you know...

In the meantime maybe someone out there knows this seemingly obscure tidbit?? :crazy:


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

I have to agree with CC. Parmentier from what I gather is a dish made or garnished with potatoes.

I went through my list of basic knife cuts and the only cut that starts with a "P" is Paysanne. Ive never heard of a knife cut named Parmentier. Maybe they were kidding?? 

Jodi


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Dear Shawntycat,

It seems that to agree with me made you sad.
This gives me pause,

Regardless, perhapes the teachers have quoted the wrong knife skill


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

I'm shaking my head over here.

Im not sad to agree with you CC.  Im sad that I couldn't offer more help to Ziggy about this. I think it might be a typo or a mistake on the part of whomever is giving the knife skills exam. 

Jodi


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

hmmm....well....what i'm looking at is last year's exam. This competition is national with each state sending an entrant....i suppose it's possible there was an error but that would have come out at some point last year i think during the competition itself and the scoring....(paysanne was also called for so i don't think there was confusion with that)

i dunno....hopefully there's nothing this obscure this year....


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Could it possibly be the cut of potato that is used in the dish? Is there anything special about how the potatoes are cut/prepared for a parmentier?


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

:bounce: LOOKIE, LOOKIE!!!

http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/...ot_recipe.html

Tried to copy the picture, but it didn't work - the cut looks like a cube; there's a page with all of the potato cuts on it. Neat website.

GOOD LUCK!!!!


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

TOO COOL! Marmalady, You're AWESOME!:bounce: 

Thanks for finding that(where ever did you find it??) If one of those other more obscure cuts shows up on this year's competencies I'll be so grateful to you! Haven't heard of most of them on that page...

So whad'ya think looking at hthat pic? Parmentier is medium dice?? 

Thanks again, SO MUCH!


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, I guess you learn something new everyday! Thank you Marm & Ziggy!  :bounce:

Jodi


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Dear Marmalady,

This is a very interesting site you found on the internet, but it can be a bit decieving. I will try to explain without being to confusing or anal 

Take for example these potatoes they highlight.

Pont-neuf
Fondant
Chateau
Boiled.

These are not "cuts" They are methods of preparation, the cut is borrowed from "tourne"

Rissole, Maxim, parmentier again, are not classic cuts, Example "Rissole" potatoes really refere to potatoes that have been fried, and parmentier is used with many potato dishes because of Antione-augustine-parmentier.

These cuts on the web site are variations on dices and bruinoise.

Also the Mignonette cut on the page has nothing to do with what a mignonette is, it is a type of Medallion from beef, veal what have you. and cocotte of course is a casserole.

These cuts on this site you may see associated with particular potato dishes, but they are not true classic cuts.

even Paysanne, which was mentioned before me by shawnycat in not a true cut (although almost always a dice) is really "peasant style" and usaully has bacon, carrots and potatoes.

I'm not trying to delate anyone here at all, I just think it is very important if you are not sure of something to totally trust an internet site. 

I really enjoyed reading the Tallyrand page, but it could be a touch misleading.
So know, have I totally confused you?
cc


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Thanks for the clear up, CC - I didn't think it was a classical cut, but knowing what sly little devils examiners can be, started thinking along the lines of, okay, it's a potato dish - can it be a certain way the potatoes are prepared for this dish? So I just did a search, first on 'Parmentier', and got a lot of people with that name, then narrowed the search to "parmentier potatoes" and the site opened right up. 

Could it be one of those obscure references, where the meaning of the word has changed to become the cut of the potato rather than the dish? I do seem to remember a French banquet chef I worked for, who used that word to describe the cut he wanted.

Zig, I haven't a clue as to how big the cuts are - I am most definitely going to defer to CC here!!!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Argh! This had been puzzling me all day and thanks for solving this, Marm! Here's the pic you wanted to display:










Although they sure look like a homefry cut to me, it certainly isn't the name of a "knife cut" !


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Thought I'd add to the confusion here. I just looked up potato and vegetable cuts in my Johnson & Wales textbook (1992 edition); I found parmentier listed there as it appears on the web page marmalady provided. One caveat: even the chef-instructors at J&W will tell you there are mistakes in the textbook. So, if CC didn't confuse everyone enough, hopefully I've finished the job and further un-clarified the matter


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

thanks for all the input everyone! for what it's worth...i certainly don't disagree with any of you that this isn't a classical cut. But if they ask me to show any of these well...then it's good information to have classical cut or not, right? :lol: I figure these are things that a lot of people may not know, so being a bit competetive (  ) the more info i have to pull from the better....

Again, many thanks for all the efforts from all of you!!!!!!!


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

According to the CIA's _New Professional Chef_, paysanne IS a basic cut: kind of a skinny dice, 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

No need not to say your sorry to me "ever"

The imformation here is wonderful and genuine.
Being trained in classical French cuisine, my stance is a little differnt then perhaps the CIAs or other books and sourses.

You see to me Paysanne, will always apply to the way the vegetables are cooked and served in the style of the peasant.

The cut you refere to is most assoiciated with paysanne, as is the cut with parmentier, but I guess my quandry (sp) is that the true meaning of these words are being changed and diluted to fit a schools sylibis for study.
To me they are all Pomme du terres anyway, with there unigue applications.
I think Ziggy, if you follow the info here in regards to you question on Parmentier you will do fabulous 

May I suggest though Ziggy, when you have some free time, try to find some older classic French cook/reference books and study these things, you will find an incredible wealth of imformation and documented history behind these things we are discussion.

Please let us know how things evolve for you!
cc


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Suzanne, sorry, but I have to agree with Cape Chef. Paysanne is a method of preparation, not a cut, at least according to classic French cuisine. One of the downfalls (or joys, depending on how you look at it) in American cuisine is that we are not really tied to traditional definitions. Look at the word confit and how it is used. We have had numerous discussions on this subject here. Americans tend to bastardize words to create new meanings, only remotely resembling the original.

Paysanne (according to LaRousse, 1960 English translation 1977)
-method of preparing butcher's meat and poultry, usually braised and accompanied by a garnish of carrots, turnips, onions and celery sliced and lightly cooked in butter, pieces of scalded and fried lean bacon, and potatoes cut down to a uniform small size.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

CC & Pete, and Ziggy, and Suzanne, and everyone - 

Okay - two different issues here; 

1) The term parmentier as it is defined in classic French cuisine, in the ways that CC and Pete have presented it. 

2) The term parmentier as it seems to be defined by Ziggy's examiners for the competition, and as the term has apparently 'evolved' in French/American cuisine. 

Zig, I think if you go to the competition knowing in your little heart of hearts what it TRULY is, but then ace your exam with doing the cut the examiners want to see, you will have learned not one, but two new bits of culinary wisdom!!!!

Don't want to start the 'evolution of food terms' here again, and you guys are absolutely correct in the historical definition of the word; but - 'fess up now - how many of you have put juuuust a touch of something like, oh, say soy sauce, in a gravy - or a vinaigrette - or even a meat loaf. Historically correct application of soy sauce no! Delicious - yes!


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Dear Marmalady,

I agree with you on every point but your last one, I think your reference to soy ETC, is more about fusion cooking than it is about the foundation of this particular discussion 

If I make a Panko fried softshell crab over mizuna, with a ginger, clemitine, soy "vinaigrette"I would consider the vinaigrette "fusion"

And yes, of course I prepare foods with a combination of different ethnic componets. That's when I want to "play" so to speak

If I prepare a Roasted pheasant, paysanne style in the fall, you will get the classic.

This is a great thread because we are helping eachother and seeing people think about the classics, the key here, like marmalady said is for Ziggy to kick arse


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Pete, I have the new Larousse Gastro. What I found interesting is that all the 'cuts' are defined as a foodstuff that happens to be cut in a certain way. It is not described as solely 'a cut', but a preparation as well.

For example: 

Julienne: Foodstuffs, esp vegetables, that are cut into thin sticks, with a knife or mandoline, (dimensions). The julienne is cooked in butter ina covered pan until quite soft and used for etc...

Brunoise: Theis French term is aplied both to a method of cutting veg into a minute dice and to the resulting diced veg. Often braised in butter, brunoise is used for garnishes etc.... )... Brunoise is usually used as soon as it is ready but can be kept briefly etc...

Paysanne: A mixture of veg (...) cut into small squares and used to make soups known as potages taillés or to garnish meat, fish or omelettes. Potatoes and carrots prepared en paysanne are first cut into small sticks (8-10 mm) which are in turn cut into thin slices. Cabbage leaves are cut into strips (8-10mm) and each strip is cut into small squares. (etc) By extension, the term à la paysanne describes various braised dishes cooked with softened veg; the veg need NOT necessarily be cut en paysanne. (etc)


Soooooo... All three have in common that they are described as cuts AND as preparation. But paysanne definitely is a cut according to larousse. I spoke to an old French chef about that once who also recognised it as a cut...

One of those mysteries of the kitchen I guess! 

PS No mention of a Parmentier cut


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Dear CC, 

Just for the sake of a lively discussion, what if the classically trained French chef one day used the description of parmentier to describe to his apprentice how he wanted the taters cut for another dish - not the pomme parmentier - just the cut, say in a gratin, or saute, whatever. The apprentice, being ever grateful that Chef has shared with him this seemingly new 'cut' of potato, goes on to his own chefdom and restaurant, where he then teaches HIS apprentices the 'parmentier' cut!! And so it begins!

With the soy sauce, I was trying to get across that a classical application of soy sauce would not be a vinaigrette; some classically trained Japanese chefs cringe at what we 'round-eyes' put soy sauce on! But we all do it, and so soy sauce has become almost a staple pantry item. 

:bounce: I LOVE THIS!!!


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Dear marmalady,

A classical trained chef would not use the term Parmentier to describe the cut he/she is looking for. He would use it to describe the "recipe and Method" bruniose, would be the cut he would ask for.

If I ask an apprentice to prepare Chateau potatoes, I will ask him/her for a medium Tourne, because Chateau potatoes is a cooking methode applyied to tourned spuds


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Dear CC, 

Oh, well I tried! It was a thought, tho, right? Right?!!! I concede!


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

I was just reading through "The Sauce Bible by David Paul Larousse" again and came to Appendix A (page 351) where I found something very interesting.

Appendix A is called The Basic Cuts and under Potatoes it says.

English - Medium Dice
French - Parmentier
Description/Dimension - 1/3 - 1/2" square

So I guess Parmentier is a basic cut (medium dice) for potatoes.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

And how would one make Potage Parmentier without putting the potatoes through a mill? I think the confusion lies in our predisposition to associate word and object without accounting for history. After all, that's they way we're taught how to read and write.

I think Parmentier refers to the method of preparation introduced by or most commonly associated with Mr. Parmentier himself, used in the same way as Rosinni (tournedos) or Bordelaise (sauce).

Kuan


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## shoesblow (May 19, 2002)

i was always taught very rigid definitions of classic knife cuts... no approximations of 1/3"-1/2"... esp for a competition/test where they just about break out the ruler on all your cuts... if youre off, youre off... end of story...

brunoisette - 1/16"^3
brunoise - 1/8"^3
macedoine - 1/4^3
parmentier - 1/2"^3
carre - 3/4"^3


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

??? Huh?? The standard judging form has only the following cuts:

Julienne, Brunoise, Batonnet, Dice, Tournee, Rondelle, Paysanne. That's it, no parmentier.

Kuan


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## b1pju89 (May 20, 2002)

hello ziggy, 30 yrs in this business and still learning,i also would be interested in the answer to that. ?


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're asking me???


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## chefguy88 (Feb 15, 2008)

Im a student at Johnson and Wales University studying culinary arts. they teach us that Parementier is a 1/2 inch dice the way to remember is baby, moma, papa Brunoise, macadoine, brunoise. 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 hope i was helpful!


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