# Are Shun knives really worth the price



## johnny p

I'm not prepared to spend almost $500. for a French Knife. Great looking cutlery, but can anyone tell me if they are really worth the price?


----------



## boar_d_laze

Johnny P said:


> I'm not prepared to spend almost $500. for a French Knife. Great looking cutlery, but can anyone tell me if they are really worth the price?


As a general rule, Shun chef's knives aren't very good for the price. That doesn't mean that a given Shun isn't the perfect choice for someone; so the accurate answer to your question and many others like it is, "it depends."

Tell me which model you're interested in, and we can start breaking it down.

If you're considering buying a chef's knife sometime in the near future, why not tell me about what you want from it and how much you are willing to spend?

BDL


----------



## luis j

Hi Johnny...

Almost a year ago I made a very similar question, but I was almost convinced that shuns were the best knives around, and based on the great advice by BDL, Chris Lehrer, Lenny D and some other veteran members, I ended with a knife that I was not very sure if I was going to like, but since all these fine gentlemen always explained me in detail why there were better choices than my original one, I decided to follow their advice and I can't be happier with the results. I have now the best knife that I've ever used, and let me tell you...I don't regret at all, and there are many more to come.

BDL already answered you, tell him what you want and need and you'll get the best answer, and the most important... It will be based on personal experience.

Best regards!

BTW... My "shun" is a "Mac" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


----------



## phaedrus

Shun knives are decent but there are better knives for the price. Mostly Shuns just aren't any FUN! They've gotten so mainstream and so common that there's no novelty to them now. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I enjoy searching out the Next Big Thing./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## johnny p

Thank you all for the input. I've had a set of 4 star henkles for the past 10 years and they have treated me well. I was looking to upgrade, but based on the replies, I'm probably going to stick with Henkles. Been soley a Henkle man for over 20 years now. Thanks again. John


----------



## wagstaff

It's great to stay with what you've liked for 20 years; but why was Shun the only upgrade possibility?


----------



## boar_d_laze

Again, it depends what you're looking for. If you're looking for something which will get and stay appreciably sharper than a traditional Henckels, doesn't require nearly as much steeling, and handles MUCH better, there are scores of possibilities. 

This is not to say high-end German (and American and Swiss) knives don't do a lot of things well and don't represent a lot of value -- because they most certainly do. But when it comes to what many of us consider to be the most important aspects of cooking knives they lag behind the Japanese. FWIW, my own journey included a stop at Henckels Four Star Pro when I decided to put away my carbon Sabs and get something stainless and more modern at the same time I evolved from "line ape" to catering in the late seventies. After a couple of years, I went back to the Sabs because they were so much sharper, lighter, more agile, and a bunch of other things which made prep hugely less exhausting and burdensome. 

On the other hand, the bayonet fork was great. Still love mine after nearly forty years.

One thing about traditional German style chef's knives, they work better dull than almost anything else. But why work with a dull knife? 

You don't have to spend $500 on a "French knife" (aka cook's knife; chef's knife; or gyuto) to get a good Japanese knife. Where did you get the idea they were so expensive? The price range for a western-handled, stainless, 10" knife is already high enough, thank you. It runs from around $80 for good entry-level (Fujiwara FKM, for instance.) to around $250 for ultimate performance (Tadatsuna Inox, by way of example). For a working pro looking for a high-end professional knife, the knives I most recommend are priced in the neighborhood of $150. 

When we say don't buy Shun, we're not saying don't buy a Japanese made western style knife. On the contrary, we're saying buy a GOOD Japanese made western style knife.

Don't just walk away... Stick around and learn something.

What do you most want from a "French knife?" 

BDL


----------



## racineboxer

Is a Le Creuset cast iron dutch oven worth the price?  Is All-Clad worth the price?

It is if you want a Le Creuset cast iron dutch oven, or some All-Clad pots/pans.

The Shun's are fantastic knives.  Some of them get really expensive, really fast, which I find ridiculous.  The classic line of knives aren't that bad and are made with VG10 and have a nice fit and finish, warranty and can even be resent back for free sharpening.  There certainly are cheaper VG10 knives out there.  Do you care about the name on the side of it?


----------



## boar_d_laze

There are some nice things to be said about Shun, but at the risk of disagreeing with the previous poster, they aren't good for the price. 

Unless you like an exaggerated German with a very high tip, most of their chef's knives profiles are ridiculously bad.  They are wide at the heel, compared to other knives in the same price range.  San-mai knives feel "damped" and "numb" to a large minority of users.  On the "Classics," the VG-10 edge is chippy, the suminagashi pattern doesn't hold up well, the "D" handle isn't ambidextrous...  I could go on.

Their F&F is excellent, as good as anything coming out of Japan.  The warranty and customer service is also excellent.  (Both things already said).  They're sold by some pretty darn good cooking equipment retailers -- but usually not good knife retailers -- who will also hand-hold. 

They will take and hold a better edge than a late eighties Wusthof -- but so can a great many other knives.  As a modern, Japanese made knife, their edge qualities are run of the mill.  The question with Shuns -- as with so many other things -- is "compared to what?"  Every Shun line I can think of is closer to the bottom of the page than the top, when compared to similarly priced lines from other Japanese manufacturers.

That is by no means a way of saying they're bad.  We're talking about placement in a range of good, and the differences can be subtle and individual taste plays a role as well.  A lot of good cooks love their Shuns. 

If you're interested in moving up to a really good knife, let's talk.

BDL


----------



## Iceman

Any knife that anyone buys, for whatever price they pay, and likes it, is absolutely worth the money .......... _*IF THEY CAN USE IT PROPERLY, PRODUCING HIGH-QUALITY DISHES*_. My goodness. Never once in my entire career as a chef has anyone complimented me on the food I've served asking what knives I've used. If you can't cook, it doesn't matter if you use a $6,000 knife. Conversely, if your cooking gets you 3 Michelin stars, nobody will care if your knives are the plastic jobs swiped from a _Wendy's_. Learn to cook first, then worry about $500 knives.


----------



## wagstaff

IceMan said:


> Any knife that anyone buys, for whatever price they pay, and likes it, is absolutely worth the money .......... _*IF THEY CAN USE IT PROPERLY, PRODUCING HIGH-QUALITY DISHES*_. My goodness. Never once in my entire career as a chef has anyone complimented me on the food I've served asking what knives I've used. If you can't cook, it doesn't matter if you use a $6,000 knife. Conversely, if your cooking gets you 3 Michelin stars, nobody will care if your knives are the plastic jobs swiped from a _Wendy's_. Learn to cook first, then worry about $500 knives.


I'm not sure though, IceMan, if your point is that this sub-forum just shouldn't exist? "Why talk about what options there are for knives to use and purchase knives?"

I think it helps to learn about tools, try to figure out where the diminishing returns set in with budgeting (and then stay well below that if you can't afford to get there, or go well above that if you're an enthusiast with lots of disposable income, and so on). And to find out what differences there are between things near a given price point (hence the "worth it" questions).

Your point is well-taken that no one else cares, and that priorities might get confused. But if the person cooking cares, that's enough; and... well... priorities, hmm. I was interested in knives before I was interested in cooking. Which seems all kinds of dumb-backwards. Now that I'm interested in cooking, the love of the tools make it more fun. Maybe not the ideal path, but one some of us are on.

Am I thinking about this all wrong?


----------



## hett

I have pieced together a "set" of Shun knives over the past 5 or so years.  I have the 8 inch chef's, 4 inch paring, utility knife, fillet knife and boning knife.  I also have an older Kai cleaver which is a lighter duty piece.  I have nothing but praise for these knives, but I only use them for precision work.  By that I mean I use some heavier knives when I am fabricating any meat.  The Shun knives are great for prep, and hold a nice edge, but I also have a Henckel's "twin" chef's knife to break down chickens and anything else that calls for a knife with some more heft to it.


----------



## Iceman

_*LOL*_. My point is very simple:

Buy whatever you want. I'm happy for you. Ask, in any post, whatever you like. I'm happy for you once again. However, all said and done, _"SEARCH" is your friend_.

Look up any _"SHUN Knife"_ thread that you want. People ask almost every time the same thing, _"Are they worth it?"_. _*BDL*_, being the knife Guru that he is, replies almost the very same thing every time. Without looking I can almost quote him from memory. It seams to me that the OPs want a SHUN knife and they only ask looking for justification.

http://www.cheftalk.com/search.php?search=shun+knives

For reasons not at all important here I just decided to say what I feel today. Say and post whatever makes you happy, After all, we are not Communists. Realize too though, without going out-of-bounds, that I will also say and post what I think. I don't think my post was at all out-of-bounds.

I hope the OP learns as much as possible, and buys the knife that makes him the happiest. I want to read many future posts of his. I hope he enjoys the forum and reads my posts along with others.


----------



## wagstaff

I don't think your post was out of bounds, either -- please don't misconstrue anything I said as implying you shouldn't post whatever you want. Not only are we not communists, I'm not a commissar.  So have at it!  And I agree that the search function could be a very good friend.  (I used it a lot before I ever posted here, myself).

I just took your post as implying you should "buy what you want" without guidance, which would obviate the need for a forum like this altogether. If you're venting a certain set of frustrations, no problem here.  And if you're trying to help re-set priorities toward the goal of cooking well, that's probably some wisdom.  I need to hear it from time to time, at least.


----------



## racineboxer

Quote:


Hett said:


> I have pieced together a "set" of Shun knives over the past 5 or so years. I have the 8 inch chef's, 4 inch paring, utility knife, fillet knife and boning knife. I also have an older Kai cleaver which is a lighter duty piece. I have nothing but praise for these knives, but I only use them for precision work. By that I mean I use some heavier knives when I am fabricating any meat. The Shun knives are great for prep, and hold a nice edge, but I also have a Henckel's "twin" chef's knife to break down chickens and anything else that calls for a knife with some more heft to it.


I have nothing but praise for the 2 I own either. I splurged and bought a Hattori based on reading knife forums like this one. It's a cool knife in my opinion (6" petty) but there isn't anything about it that makes me feel like it's better than the Shun's I own. Actually the fit and finish is significantly worse and that alone makes me feel it's a lesser quality, lesser value knife. Compared to the many Wusthof's & Henckels that I've owned, borrowed, used... I think the Shun's are a huge step up. But there is also something nice about a big heavy Wusthof though... you feel like you could cut through anything with one of those and not damage the blade. BDL hates the san-mai, suminagashi, D handle and profile... I like all those things. It's personal preference in my opinion.

.


----------



## phaedrus

I went thru a Shun phase, like most people do, when I first moving from Germans to Japanese.  But I've long since got rid of the last one.  I will say, though, that I also have the Hattori HD petty in the 6"-ish length and used to own the 6" Shun.  I didn't need both and basically flipped a coin and kept the Hattori and got rid of the Shun.  The Shun really was pretty much equal to the Hattori.  Were I to do it again I wouldn't have purchased either one.  For that matter I don't anticipate ever buying anything in VG-10 again unless something exceptional comes out (at least with regards to kitchen knives).  Hattori does a good heat treat on their KF/FH line and I wouldn't mind getting a 240mm gyuto to replace the one I sold.


----------



## boar_d_laze

_Ab definito_, what I like is universal, objective truth, but what you like is personal taste. For heaven's sake can't we keep this straight?

The biggest negative issues with Shuns are the chef's knife profile and thick heels.

One's preferred profile is a matter of taste, but the fact that Shun uses an exaggerated German with a high tip is not. The trend among better technicians is away from German and towards French with a mid-line or lower tip because the profile is more agile; because the extra power you get with German profile isn't necessary with a very sharp knife; and because you don't need to get the handle up as high to get the tip on the board (as for "draw" cuts, scoring shallots, and other tip work). Those are inherent properties of the profiles, not opinions; but you're certainly entitled to prefer a German profile.

A thicker heel is harder to sharpen and prone to wedging. D heels are not ambidextrous. Shun suminagashi cladding is soft and scratches easily. Those things aren't matters of individual taste, they just are.

With the coming of a few excellent US retailers and the availability of lots of (better) options, Shun and Global are no longer the force they were a few years ago in high end kitchens.

Are there good reasons for that? I think so. I'm not saying don't buy a Shun, or you were a fool if you did. Rather I think you should develop an understanding, make a short list of knives which are bound to work for you, and choose one according to whatever criteria you have left. Other than friendship and support, I don't have much to offer after the understanding and a few suggestions for that list. If you're happy with your Shun, I'm happy for you.

I don't believe all knives are created equal or that the difference are only matters of individual preference. My thoughts were shaped working in professional kitchens and teaching cooking and knife skills classes. They were strengthened by staying in touch with skilled technicians who run professional kitchens and end up teaching lots of employees, and by keeping a close eye on cooking and knife forums.

My knife dialogues tend to start more or less the same way, because most people come in to CT asking the same sorts of knife questions, and because I like to get a feel for their general knowledge level before starting with too much advice. Most people don't know knife basics, so I go through those pretty often. It's worth doing it as an individual question and answer, because people learn differently and it's reflected in their questions; but, sure, it can get repetitive if you follow every thread. There are only so many basics. The most important thing I have to say is hammering the importance of sharpening and sharpness. Boring once you've read it a few (hundred) times, but it comes as news to most people asking for "first good" knife advice at CT. They're not stupid, they just didn't realize. They're worth the respect, time and extra typing to get the news fresh and "just for them."

If someone's really interested in a knife or a type of knife I don't like and/or don't know much about, I'll say so and drop out of the conversation. For instance, there's a currently ongoing thread about a guy who wants to buy a pattern welded, san-mai gyuto as a gift.

Most of my knife recommendations aren't for the knives I own, because they aren't the best choice for most people who do ask. I think the ideal knife is one which takes the drudgery out of prep, is comfortable, doesn't overtax the budget, and doesn't demand too much maintenance or a too high level of knife skills, sharpening skills or sharpening kit. Fun is the beau ideal.

I enjoy knives in general, my knives in particular, and like sharing the pleasure. But, I'm more about the creativity and art of cooking than the technicality of knives. The "knife guru" thing came about as unintentional niche filling.

BDL


----------



## phaedrus

The main strength of Kershaw Shun isn't knife making, it's marketing. They're a slightly better cutlery version of Bose. Kershaw does seem to have great technical and manufacturing abilities and I'd never count them out. As the market matures and people's tastes become more sophisticated it seems that Kershaw Kai has begun to modify their product line. They have a newish line that doesn't say Kramer on them but they've retained the basic Kramer "schooner" shape. The new Premier line seems superior in every respect to the Classic that it seems destined to replace. I have no doubt that if they wanted to produce a very French patterned, waifishly thin gyuto they could. But right now that's not their demographic. And as BDL alludes to, that gyuto might be great for him or I but it would probably be a lousy choice for Joe Sixpack or Jane Homemaker. Most Shuns straddle the line between performance and practicality. If a Wusthof is a Ford F-150 and a Konosuke KD is a _Koenigsegg_ CXX, then a Shun is a V-6 Mustang. Sporty enough to impress your buddies but not likely to get you into much trouble (compared to the CXX, at least...).

I quite liked the construction of the Shun Elite line. The gyuto shared the same failings as their other ones, ie too much belly, so I never bought one. But the other patterns in the Elite line were okay.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Phaedrus did an excellent job of peering into the Shun mystique.  I disagree with none, but quibble -- just a little -- with one.  He was on the money when he talked about Shun and marketing, but not as right when he talked about Shun straddling the line between performance and practicality.  Almost all of their knives are overhyped on the basis of imaginary benefits; way too much about appearance; and from a practicality/performance standpoint they're somewhat -- but not obscenely -- overpriced.  That's not to say there aren't a lot of good things to say about them, but those good things like F&F, customer support, etc., fall in different areas.  Shun plus Williams-Sonoma, and Shun plus Sur La Table are very good fits.  

Mustang V-6?  Not bad, not bad at all.  A "chick car" is a good comparison.  Where many other Japanese knives are sports cars of one sort or degree, Shuns are more "sporty."

Phaedrus was smart to talk about Shun's variety of lines.  

BDL


----------



## phaedrus

I do find a Shun to be vastly superior to a Wusthof, performance wise.  It will easily take and hold a 10k edge.  It's not as good as a Konsuke but a quantum leap up from your mass market German, IMO.


----------



## racineboxer

Phaedrus said:


> The main strength of Kershaw Shun isn't knife making, it's marketing. They're a slightly better cutlery version of Bose.


Hey, did you steal that Bose analogy from me?! This came up between us probably a year ago. I still think a comparison between Shun and not just Bose but also Polk and Klipsch is fair. Walking into a Williams-Sonoma and buying a Shun is similar to walking into a Best Buy and buying Polk/Klipsch. In both cases you get salespeople who know the product at an elementary level at best, who know just enough to be dangerous (and often wrong) with what they say. The companies are very good marketers. The product is sold from a brick and mortar store so there is the cost of employee salaries and overhead that gets factored into the price. This is very similar to the "big box store" vs. "internet direct" speaker arguments. There are some economic benefits to being the small guy.

I also think comparing a Shun to an ipod would be fair. There are certainly other mp3 players out there with more memory that function well and can be bought cheaper.

It all depends on how much you dislike a company with how you choose to compare them.


----------



## phaedrus

Maybe! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gifIf I did it wasn't conscious or deliberate. I've got $14,000 sunk into my audio rig and am a moderator at two high profile audio websites, so the Bose/Blose analogy is always close at hand./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif Just as Bose is a step above most (but not all) boom-box/all-in-one rigs, Shun is a step above the German and German-knock-off knives. I really hate Bose because they devote more energy to lawsuits than designing decent products; Shun I hate not at all. I will probably never own another Shun but they're a rite of passage into the world of J-knives.


----------



## Iceman

OK. I could just be too old for this, but the Polk and Klipsch I'm familiar with don't belong in any comparison discussion with Shun knives. Have things changed that much over the years?


----------



## racineboxer

IceMan said:


> OK. I could just be too old for this, but the Polk and Klipsch I'm familiar with don't belong in any comparison discussion with Shun knives. Have things changed that much over the years?


Honestly, I don't know which way you are even looking at it. Do you think that Polk & Klipsch are good products with OK value or do you think they are cheap crap?


----------



## racineboxer

Phaedrus said:


> Maybe! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gifIf I did it wasn't conscious or deliberate. I've got $14,000 sunk into my audio rig and am a moderator at two high profile audio websites, so the Bose/Blose analogy is always close at hand./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif Just as Bose is a step above most (but not all) boom-box/all-in-one rigs, Shun is a step above the German and German-knock-off knives. I really hate Bose because they devote more energy to lawsuits than designing decent products; Shun I hate not at all. I will probably never own another Shun but they're a rite of passage into the world of J-knives.


Yeah, and I'm one of the Wisconsin gang from AVS. I've hung out with nuance, warpdrv and a few of the other guys multiple times.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Even when it was new, Dr. Bose made a much bigger deal out of his direct/reflected "science" than it was; and the company's "new" technology is way less than they advertise.  The degree of over-hype is amazingly severe in my (over educated) opinion.  And still, I can't convince my wife not to want a Bose clock or mini-theater setup.  The hunger for the promise is so strong.  At least she doesn't want Shun.

Shun doesn't bring the competitive, high end performance or value as  Vandersteen 2Ce speakers or a basic Corvette coupe, but several manufacturers make knives which do.  Chick cars, chick speakers... their comparisons to Shun are even more apt than you think, I think.  Their knives are more accessories than tools. Shun is all about two things:  The promise and the pretty. 

BDL

PS.  Klipsch still makes some good speakers which provide some good value and performance matched with low powered tube amps. 

PPS. Do you remember "tunable audio cable" (and other stuff) from a manufacturer called Pure Logic?  Pure Logic -- for my sins -- was me.


----------



## Iceman

OK. Maybe this will help. I've had early generation Heresys, Cornwalls and LaScalas, and I loved the bageebies out of them. I've also had vintage 78-79 Polk varieties. I loved them too.



racineboxer said:


> Honestly, I don't know which way you are even looking at it.


----------



## racineboxer

IceMan said:


> OK. Maybe this will help. I've had early generation Heresys, Cornwalls and LaScalas, and I loved the bageebies out of them. I've also had vintage 78-79 Polk varieties. I loved them too.


Sorry... it doesn't help me much, I'm _only_ 35 - LOL! But a quick google search shows me what you are talking about...

Lots of folks buy Polk and Klipsch every day and love their products. And the same can be said about Shun...

But I can drive my butt over to a Frys store and walk and see these Polk sitting there for about $800: http://www.frys.com/product/3586944?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG. Or Crutchfield sells these Klipsch's for about $900 (note the price shown is for each speaker): http://www.crutchfield.com/s_714RB81IIC/Klipsch-Reference-RB-81-II-Cherry.html?tp=186

If I had a dollar I'd bet that Phaedrus would agree, this is better speaker. Much better. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html

Where the debate comes in (for me anyways) is when we get into the criticisms about the product and just how bad of value they are.

One guy might take the approach of saying that you got some nice speakers, he probably wouldn't have paid that much for them but they'll likely serve you well for a decade or more if you take care of them and you'll probably have an awesome time cranking up your favorite tunes or hooking them up as part of a 5.1 or 7.1 system and having a kick ass home theater. Enjoy them, rock on!

Guy #2 might tell you that you just bought a pile of crap that is made of cheap parts and if you do any critical listening for more than 20 minutes your ears will bleed and you'll probably have a migraine for 2 days. If you use these speakers for home theater the dialogue will be poor and you probably won't even understand the plot of the movie because you missed so much. You essentially bought a Dodge Neon with a big muffler on it and now you think you have a sports car. You fell to a marketing gimmick and bought a polished up turd.

In case you can't tell, I'm guy 1.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Polk makes low and mid-level speakers now.  They still make some expensive models; and if you want to waste it, they're ready to take your money.

Klipsch speakers of one type or another inhabit all of the price ranges, and some of their speakers are still high-end in the right system.  That includes slightly modernized versions of the old models you loved.  Those match well with modern, low-powered, tube driven amps.  In addition to their efficiency across the frequency spectrum, they thrive on even-order distortion.

Paul Klipsch was a great acoustics scientist and engineer.  He was also a very nice man.  Sid Harman introduced me to Paul in the mid eighties, and we spent a little time here and there during the next decade at various audio shows and functions.  Klipsch was incredibly smart, open-minded and a great judge of equipment.  He was also very nice to me. 

Not that he invented horn-loading, but he was a leader and huge force on the modern application and improvement of the design.  You see a fair amount of horn-loading in speakers from other manufacturers designed to fit in the same, low-power niche.  Klipsch's corner/base-reinforcement designs have held up well even though though they haven't been as influential.

In speaking about Paul, I don't mean to minimize Amar Bose's contributions, but contrary to Bose Corp. propaganda he did not invent the ear.

BDL


----------



## Iceman

My Klipsch speakers came in the day that I think they only made 6 models; Klipschorns at one end of the spectrum, Heresys at the other. I think at the same time, Polk made 3 Monitors and 1 RTA model. From there I moved to a cool speaker, the Dahlquist DQ-10. I went through a series of Speakerlab stuff; that was a lot of fun, seriously. It's an easy life when Mommy still pays for you to live. LOL. Anyway, I had a lot of different speakers. As it is now, I listen to a sweet little pair of Advent Mini/Baby speakers hooked to a matching Advent s/w. For an old man, they sound OK.


----------



## racineboxer

I have a friend who's looking to spend between $700 and $1200 to buy Shun Edo knives from WS (just got married 3 weeks ago, money & returns are burning a hole in his pocket).  I'm unsure to what degree I should encourage him to not do it and consider other options.  I know his wife just LOVES those Edo knives... but I also know he could get a similar set of MAC pro's for about 60%.

For you guys that recommend against Shun, do you feel the conversation is different, or easier, on the internet vs. in person?  How much effort do you put in to educate folks about knives and try to get them to look at other options before they buy?  A litte or a lot?


----------



## wagstaff

Like anything... do their eyes glaze over? Do they ask more better questions?


----------



## boar_d_laze

What Wagstaff said... +1. 

If they come back a second time, they're usually over the Shun hump. 

But as I said Shun's aren't really bad, just less good in some more or less important ways.

By far the most important thing about knives is sharpening.  After that skills.  Opening your mind to the idea that the knife itself is somewhat down the list is enough of a wrench that the possibility of other knives is more acceptable.  

If I have one important thing to say, it's about the importance of sharpening. 

So much about a German profile, san-mai, "faux Damascus," overpriced knife is illogical, that once logic enters, Shun lust usually wanes quickly.   But if you're trying to please your wife... 

BDL


----------



## adam c norwig

I own three Shuns. A 10 in. Classic chefs, a 10 1/2 yanagi, and a 6 1/2 in deba. I like the weight, the handles and the easy to maintain steel. I use these exclusively for more delicate work in my capacity as a sushi chef.  They hold their edge very well and I recommend them for their price range. It seems pretty close to some other brands in that price range I've experienced and owned. The Global line which is a bit less expensive( I have the standard vegetable knife) and the Masamoto which is a bit more( I have a 8 in gyoto). I spent an average of 160 on most of these and for the difference in price range we're talking 20-40 dollars give or take. I use German steel for heavier duty work ( I have the Messmeister Elite) plus some specific knives for specific jobs i.e. a cheap Chinese cleaver, a VG 10 boning knife I found in a thrift shop for 10 bucks, a Wusthof Grand Prix paring knife, an ugly plastic handled Mundial bread knife). I'm religious about their maintenance and try to only use a stone on the better steel and I'm territorial about any one one other than myself using those knives.I utilize a Stanley tool box with a lock for my kit online! I have some better carbon Japanese steel that I break out on occasion and have lust for that amazing Korin catalog of knives,too. That being said... I've seen some no name off the street prep chef use some crappy Target knife or even some wierd application like a serrated bread knife for everything they do and put chefs to shame with their speed and accuracy. Use what makes you happy and efficient.


----------



## adam c norwig

And I definately agree with boar_d_laze. Learn to sharpen your knife, please. Invest in a water stone and a truing stone. Understand the limitations of a sharpening steel. Buy covers for your knives. Learn from someone who knows or get online for training. Establish a valid technique for your specific knife and know and respect your instrument. This will automatically put you above the crowd.


----------



## kssolomon

Bdl

I am looking for a western style 8" chief knive. I was considering a Shun. What brand would you recommend.

Thanks
Kevin


----------



## himself

...


----------



## rick alan

Ks take a look at just the most recent "new knife" posts to get an idea what criteria you would need to provide us here as well as recommendations.

Rick


----------



## raibeaux

Hey, BDL, etc.  I remember.  I just  sold a Macintosh MC-30 to a guy that went nuts when I agreed.  Don't blame him, he had one and now he's got them with his two horns.

Mr. Klipsch once said that what the world needs is a clean 5-Watt Amp, and with the horns, he was right.

By the way, you ever hear of a Burwen TNE transient noise eliminator?  I still have mine and it still works fine.  Only click and pop remover ever to actually work.

One knife question.  I hear all this stuff about VG-10.  Wouldn't you say that a lot depends on the heat treat?  I have a RyuSen Damascus I really like, no problems at all.  Looks good, too.


----------



## randomhero91

I'm looking to buy my first chefs knife or santuko I've been researching and I've used henks before and Nella but I started a new job at a resort where cooks supply there own knives and I don't want to buy a crappy knife that only lasts a few years I want a quality knife iv been looking at the reviews and YouTube videos and shun seems to be very popular if some one can help that would be awesome thanks


----------



## dave kinogie

Shun's are nice enough but quite overpriced, especially in relation to what else is out there for equal or lesser money. The Classic series have a sick belly as well.


----------



## rick alan

BDL put the Shun question in perfect perspective in his statement above. Hattori is the way to go if you really want VG10. Right now it seems HAP40 is the steel to go for, just in terms of steel, but little is available. For a 240 you can get this: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rihakn.html .

You're a pro, I'm sure you can tell us what you are really looking for in a knife even if you never gave it much conscious thought before..

Rick


----------



## alexb

IceMan said:


> [justify]My Klipsch speakers came in the day that I think they only made 6 models; Klipschorns at one end of the spectrum, Heresys at the other. I think at the same time, Polk made 3 Monitors and 1 RTA model. From there I moved to a cool speaker, the Dahlquist DQ-10. I went through a series of Speakerlab stuff; that was a lot of fun, seriously. It's an easy life when Mommy still pays for you to live. LOL. Anyway, I had a lot of different speakers. As it is now, I listen to a sweet little pair of Advent Mini/Baby speakers hooked to a matching Advent s/w. For an old man, they sound OK. [/justify]
> 
> 
> what an enjoyable thread to read. starting with the knives, and I have much to learn about them, and then into some of my favorite speaker equipment. you guys have wonderful taste. Not much for American cars though, except Chrysler. I'm a Chrysler nut. the 300s and imperials.Had a 1952 windsor deluxe 7 years ago. I still have my Dalquist DQ tens. there the only speakers I have, except for some radio's one being a 1975 grundig concert boy.
> 
> Anyway back to knives.
> 
> "Boar_d_laze" your posts are very interesting . Loving Japanese knives as much as you do, do you still love those old carbon Sabatiers all most as much ?
> 
> Alex . p.s. I would love those speakers how are they for classical music ?
> 
> I recall reading that they were very good.


----------



## rick alan

BDL is "on leave" from the group, and hopeful completing a draft of his cookbook that will please him as all of us have been happy with whatever he writes.

It's been about 40 years since I heard Klipsch, they were the big boxes, I believe they were primarily bought by classical enthusiasts back then.  The only negative I recall is they were very directional.  Can't recall if there were any particular spacial requirements for best sound.

Speaking of minis, I'm happy with the Bose boombox+satallites setups.  Self-powered, hide easily amongst the wife's nicknacks and are very non-directional.  Absolutely can't be beat for the office or typical computer desk arrangement.

Rick


----------



## harrisonh

Shuns are not bad knives. But if it's a matter of MAC vs Shun. I'd take a MAC ANY day. There are many other great brands that I'd choose above shun any day, too.

As far as the klipsh discussion, back in the day, amongst other systems, I've had, I used to have signed "stacked heresies".
2 heresies per channel in series but 180 degrees out of phase (top one upside down) with upgraded wiring and with better cabinet and spider damping.


----------



## Iceman

I had these: 




  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Sep 15, 2014







The *La Scala*

The *Heresy* ...




  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Sep 15, 2014







... was the first, and only for a long time, KLIPSCH speaker to use a regular woofer instead of a horn.

As far as "classical music" ... the Klipsch were, and always have been, killer for whatever they played. Extremely clean, and I would guess more efficient than anything else. The Advent Mini's that I use now are just fine. Particularly being that I live in a very small house. Also very clean, they put out nice solid sound that fills up my living room.


----------



## Iceman

In regards to knives ... Shun being the point of interest ... I don't think there is anything wrong with them. However ... I think you can get a lot more knife for less money if you look. I've never seen any in a pro kitchen, outside of Alton Brown's on TV. They're a well made quality product, they look very nice and do a good enough job for a home cook.


----------



## ordo

I dislike the german profile of Shun Gyutos. Depending on your style of cutting, a preffered profile is an important issue at the time of choosing a chef's knife.


----------



## brianshaw

IceMan said:


> ... I've never seen any [Shun] in a pro kitchen, outside of Alton Brown's on TV. ...


Seriously?? Maybe somebody needs to get out a bit more.


----------



## Iceman

*LOL.*

Seriously?? Maybe somebody needs to leave the wisecracks at home.


----------



## phaedrus

I've seen a few Shuns in the working kitchens I've been in but only in the hands of knife nOObs.  Typically they're the first knife a guy gets when he wants something better than a Wusthof.  A Shun or a Global, they're often the gateway drug that gets you into real J-knives.


----------



## brianshaw

BrianShaw said:


> Seriously?? Maybe somebody needs to get out a bit more.


It has been called to my attention that I "called someone out" in this message. I apologize if it was taken that way.

Let me expand and be more clear. My experience does not support the implication that Shun knives are not used in professional kitchens. While others may not have ever seen one in use; I have... that was my intended message but it was not very well stated. Whether they are common or a rarity I can't say, but I can say that I've seen them used by very experienced chefs and cooks in professional kitchens.

Shun kives, also, are often seen on the various TV cooking shows being used by professionals of all calibers. Is Jacque Pepin a knife-noob or is he a Shun huckster (slang for salesman)... IDK, but I'd hesitate to think that he is either. Sure, that is not a working restaurant kitchen... I know that. There are many others who can be named who come from a restaurant kitchen to teach, demonstrate, or compete on those shows and use Shun knives. Are they all knife-noobs... IDK that either. But I see Shun as often as I see "real J-knives".

This is just my experience and that's all I'm sharing. Feel free to agree or disagree; I welcome either option.

And I do agree that they are sometimes a gateway to OTHER J-knives. Peace to all!


----------



## robertoo

racineboxer said:


> I have a friend who's looking to spend between $700 and $1200 to buy Shun Edo knives from WS (just got married 3 weeks ago, money & returns are burning a hole in his pocket). I'm unsure to what degree I should encourage him to not do it and consider other options. I know his wife just LOVES those Edo knives... but I also know he could get a similar set of MAC pro's for about 60%.
> 
> For you guys that recommend against Shun, do you feel the conversation is different, or easier, on the internet vs. in person? How much effort do you put in to educate folks about knives and try to get them to look at other options before they buy? A litte or a lot?


if his wife love it he must buy it ,a happy wife is more important than a very good knife.Shun is not a bad knife just too expensive.


----------



## brianshaw

Truer words have never been written/spoken, Robertoo!

And not to beat a dead horse (because he's not dead, just feeling a bit ill)...

I saw this guy using Shun knives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bartolotta Not the kind of guy I'd consider a "home cook" or a knife nOOb.


----------



## michael moser

Kai knife after an incident with a muscat pumpkin:





  








_MG_9403_zps94db331b.jpg




__
michael moser


__
Dec 7, 2014












  








_MG_9406_zps9a0d20cc.jpg




__
michael moser


__
Dec 7, 2014








answer from http://kai-europe.com: "this is a fine knife don't use it on rough things"
=8-((

Michael


----------



## brianshaw

Very dramatic pictures.  I'm sorry for your loss.

For a squash like that you must have really been working hard.  A much larger and stouter knife (like a 10 inch German chef knife) would have been a much better option for breaking down a winter squash.

I dropped a Shun from 5 feet onto a ceramic tile floor with much less damage than your encountered.  Again, sorry for your loss.


----------



## michael moser

not working hard, simply cutting along …

Michael


----------



## michael moser

The blade is seven years old, was rehoned with home-whetstones on a regular basis. I will accept any time that a blade bends if you abuse it to eg tighten a screw.

Happens to my cheap victorinox paring knives all the time …
;-))

breaking though is a different thing altogether …

=8-((

Michael


----------



## rick alan

Is the steel VG10 or SG2?  SG2 from Kai (the actual makers of Shun) is especially prone to chipping, and coincidentally there was similar damage reported here from cutting a squash.  All Kai knives have their blades stamped from sheet.  Those in SG2/R2 by makers like Tanaka and Itou that are forged to shape are a bit tougher, but still not made for much hard treatment, especially on plastic boards, and where knife skills are not adequate to eliminate twisting motions.

Rick


----------



## brianshaw

VG10


----------



## rick alan

If Kai has the same warranty as Shun you should be able to get it replaced.  I pumpkin shouldn't be able to do that here.

Rick


----------



## rick alan

Agreed, you can see from the photo that is a relatively thick edge and shouldn't produce a chip anything like that.  If you look at the chip and the half-moon breakout you'll likely see some uncharacteristically large shinny carbides in there, where ideally you would not be able to see any sparklies at all, or hardly notice any, because they would be too small.

Rick


----------



## ziggyb

Here's what I think of Shun Knives:





  








shun_hole.jpg




__
ziggyb


__
Dec 10, 2014








A chip in the making.
I've sharpened hundred's of chipped Shuns.
For the money, the heat treatment should be better than the inner metal filled with air pockets.

They cut great, but are made to chip.
This knife was badly chipped, I usually take off the chips, reprofile the edge.
Common to expose the air pockets.

Usually, when done, a new "round" chip is on the edge somewhere the majority of the time.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## brianshaw

Very interesting picture Ziggy.  I'd give you 4 cents for that if I could; Thanks.

I've seem several pics of chipped edges and often wondered if it was really a result of metallurgy or heavy use/abuse.


----------



## ziggyb

BrianShaw said:


> Very interesting picture Ziggy. I'd give you 4 cents for that if I could; Thanks.
> 
> I've seem several pics of chipped edges and often wondered if it was really a result of metallurgy or heavy use/abuse.


Anytime.

Check out post #56?, the 2nd pic of Michaels knife.
Enlarge it and look at the heel, I see that all the time, a combo of wear exposing the pockets and chips.
About normal for a Chef, household use much less.

Once you take the edge off and reprofile the angle, its a crap shoot what you expose.
Big downside is the Damascus outer layer. In several years, you start to reach it.

That little hole is much larger, like the tip of an iceberg.
You can take a thin pin and rattle it around, you're only seeing top of the pocket.

I strongly suspect Micheal's large chip may be a result of a pocket.
Would be interesting if Michael had the chip in hand if it came out in one piece, see if it is concave on the inside as there's some meat to it.

I run into them rarely with Globals.
German steel, never. And I've taken off pounds of German steel over the years 
Even on breaks, deep into the knife, like loosing 2" off the tip, always solid.

This is not just a VG-10 issue.
The other Shun interior metals have the same problem.

They slice like all hell though, you can make them razors. Danger sharp.
They have their place in the arsenal, just not as work horses IMHO.

Edit: Oh, that was 1 of about 5 in that knife alone exposed.


----------



## rick alan

I am not aware that this can occur during the HT.  It's like Kai must be using mill seconds for the price break.  I've seen voids great in number, creases also, in some really cheap stainless knives, and I'm fairly certain that is how they come from the mill.

Rick


----------



## ziggyb

Benuser said:


> What makes air pockets to occur?


Not sure myself, not up on it.

From discussions with Knife Makers over this they say its the heat treatment ... how and why .. don't know.

They do say several manufacturers have it down, and have produced with no pockets.
Mainly non cooking companies like Spyderco, Fallkniven ... survival type blades made for extreme elements and abuse.


----------



## lao0

I have a few shun knives and I love them. Honestly buy A great knife that fits your style !


----------



## sumit

Hi Chefs,

I have been using ,shun ,misono and kasumi. I did not had any problem with it . But i came across SUGIMOTO knifes ( One of my japanese mate use it). Its great knife but very expensive. I think its come down to how do you take care of your knives. for sure i would not spend $500 for french knives , i rather go for japanese knives.

warmly

sumit


----------



## alaminute

Sugimotos are great knives, and they aren't really too expensive all things considering. Generally cheaper than misonos, and I feel they blow them out of the water with edges they take/hold. A shun premier 8" chef's knife was my first 'good knife' but after moving upwards and onwards it seems just about every japo knife beats it and with prices and quality that manufacturers like tojiro and hiromoto put out, and how much it microchips (no matter how far you take it down, that 'air bubble' theory is a real eye opener why all my other knives get smooth when I sharpen them and my shun gets toothy) there's really no justifying getting one.


----------



## chrisscratch

After using carbon sani-safe knives for 18 years my shun chef knife is a breath of fresh air. For one food never sticks to the blade. Holds the edge beautifully. Was it worth the price? Yes for me it was.


----------



## negeurra

Hi BDL,

Really appreciate your understanding and patience in your repetitive elucidations to beginners like myself. My partner is a chef and she has mentioned before that she’s wanted a Japanese knife called Shun. Not knowing anything about chef knives (or anything about culinary world), I ventured out to buy her a Shun knife for her birthday. Now my question is what should I be getting her? She is petite and has small Asian hands (right-handed). I believe she sharpens her knives once every 4 months. I'm not sure if these information are useful b your advice is much appreciated.

Negeurra


----------



## brianshaw

I regret to inform you but BDL is long gone from this forum. 

As a Shun user I'd recommend an 8 inch chef knife, either classic or premiere, for someone who expressed that desire and has smaller hands.


----------



## ziggyb

negeurra said:


> Hi BDL,
> 
> Really appreciate your understanding and patience in your repetitive elucidations to beginners like myself. My partner is a chef and she has mentioned before that she's wanted a Japanese knife called Shun. Not knowing anything about chef knives (or anything about culinary world), I ventured out to buy her a Shun knife for her birthday. Now my question is what should I be getting her? She is petite and has small Asian hands (right-handed). I believe she sharpens her knives once every 4 months. I'm not sure if these information are useful b your advice is much appreciated.
> 
> Negeurra


If she has small hands, I know she wants a Shun, but don't rule out Globals.
Great for petite hands and lightweight.


----------



## rick alan

I'm no fan of Shun but I definitely wouldn't swap it for a global, especially as a present for she who is the giver of pleasure and pain.

Rick


----------



## bluewolf

I am not an expert but I am starting to pick up a few things. At this point I feel good  that I made it through the "These shuns must be good I want one phase" and have moved on to other Japanese brands. There is a whole world of other Japanese options that IMO are a superior product to the Shuns and offer a better value. Shuns are mass produced and seem to be a bit overpriced for what they are. I really don't care for the look of most the Shun lines either. Many have a overdone flashy damascus  appearance..

You didn't say what type of knife you we're thinking of getting your partner or what size? handle type? There are some knifes out there that are better suited for women, but can be a little harder to track down. She may have to handle the knife in person to see what is going to work for her. Problem is unless you are close to a specialty cutlery shop, the selection at retailers is going to be limited to a few major Japanese brands. I think Mac Pro may be a better call than a Shun, if we're talking bigger brands.


----------



## dagnasty

No, they aren't. Not when you can get masakage, fujiwara, and takeda knives for equal or less than shun.


----------



## wrobelan

You can generally get a Shun 6 inch chef knife for under $100. Just check every week, if you have time, for deals in the chains and online. I paid $75 for a new Kaji 6 inch western and now its $200. The prices fluctuate greatly, so its best to be patient. There is more information on this forum that can help you and on many of the other kitchen knife forums out there.

Best of luck.


----------



## galley swiller

6 inches (150 mm) is extremely small for a chef's knife.  A petty, maybe, though I would want to see the blade profile.  If it's squat, then no, thank you, I'll pass it up..

8 inches (200 mm) is the practical minimum for an all-around-use chef's knife.  It's difficult to cut larger items (such as a roast) with a short knife.

GS


----------



## wrobelan

Galley Swiller said:


> 6 inches (150 mm) is extremely small for a chef's knife. A petty, maybe, though I would want to see the blade profile. If it's squat, then no, thank you, I'll pass it up..
> 
> 8 inches (200 mm) is the practical minimum for an all-around-use chef's knife. It's difficult to cut larger items (such as a roast) with a short knife.
> 
> GS


Yes, I agree that 6 inches for a chefs is short, but going from the information provided, she may like a smaller knife. Also, Shun knives tend to have a bigger belly, which makes them poor slicers.

I myself use the 8inch kiritsuke I have the most, but that's my own preference. If I were buying a knife for someone else, I would purchase several and let the recipient pick.


----------



## markop

Wanting the next big thing is not a criteria to use when purchasing a knife. I've used and have 12 shun knives 7 given to me as gifts and they're excellent. I get them sharpened at the proper angle by an expert japanese knife sharpener trained in Japan. There are many better knives. What's better? I'm happy the vegetables and meats are happy, my clients and friends are happy. I prefer the Japanese blade to European sharpened blades, but a sharp blade curs, knife skills are the intangibles here
Marko


----------



## msbirdchat

[Am 72 yrs old, have cooked a lot all my life. Have used many different brands of knives and find Shun the best. They hold their sharp edge longer, much longer, than any others that I have had. I have never had a chip on any edge. 
My opinion is to use each knife (no matter what brand), for its' intended use.
Use a 6" chef for slicing and dicing vegs, shrimp, etc. Use an 8" for slicing larger foods.
Use an actual slicer for slicing cooked meats. Use a cleaver to cut bones, and etc.
Kitchen shears are also extremely useful for many jobs.

By using any knife for the job it was intended, any knife will last longer, hold its edge and won't chip.

My very first set of knives was Chicago Cutlery. After almost 50 years they are still good as new, hold a very sharp edge and not a one has a chip. I still have several Wusthofs, but they are my least favorite, as their edges do chip and I have to get them sharpened often.

I do buy my Shuns when they are on sale, and I keep an eye out for the sales because they are expensive.

I love kitchen knives. It is such a pleasure to chop with a great knife. I am going to look up some of the other brands that others on this forum have mentioned. Maybe Santa will bring me a new knife for Christmas!


----------



## hashbrownclown

Hi, I am new here. My name is J.c. a.k.a TheHashbrownClown.

Are shun knives worth the price? They are worth the price if youre willing to pay it. But you have to have the know how of what makes the knives a worthy knife.

The theory of whats quote unquote "the best" I have to say it is the Culinaire behind the steel! Now with that being said. There is a fine line. It is not exceptional to have to sharpen a knife dish after dish. Honestly, I have dropped several thousands of dollars on quality knives to have them walk away. In my commercial kitchen life I found a way to combat (80%ish successful) that issue. I have come across line cooks in my lifetime that have used the worst knives known to the profession, that have produced some of the most beautiful dishes that one can imagine. On the other hand I have worked with lets say name brand chefs that couldnt cut a small dice consistantly let alone a brunoise. 

High end knives have a place and that is at home or locked in a vault. Or both for that fact. lol

I love the speaker anology, thats sum funny stuff right there! I dont care who you are. Larry the cable guy quote

Respectfully,

TheHashbrownClown


----------



## galley swiller

I have only one Shun - a lowly Shun Sora santoku with kullens.

I'm not impressed.

Most Shuns have much more belly than I like.

Kai's heat treatment of VG-10 leaves a lot to be desired.

Simply put, for the price of a Shun, if it's a VG-10 edge you want, you can purchase a comparable length and type of Tojiro DP (without Damascus), and have enough money left over for some sharpening gear.  The Tojiro's blade profile is flatter and has a lower tip (much more useful).  And Tojiro's heat treatment is generally less chippy.

Or, you can invest a little bit more in a MAC Chef series BK model (BK-80 - 8 inch; BK-100 - 10 inch) and get a knife with a significantly easier to sharpen edge.

GS


----------



## millionsknives

Quote:


hashbrownclown said:


> High end knives have a place and that is at home or locked in a vault. Or both for that fact. lol


No! Knives are tools and if you don't use them, they will be sad. I know pros using $600 Shigs and Katos regularly at work. It is all about the kitchen culture, and that starts from the top.

The most expensive knife I use is like $300. At this price range, I can use it, sharpen, thin, ugly it and not really worry that much. That has nothing to do with theft.


----------



## hashbrownclown

Lol that's not what I meant! Imade that statement jokingly. Thats like buying a Bently and not driving it. Common grade kitchen knives work just as good as high end! I use my high end knives, just not in my commercial kitchen. I pay my cooks very well, and I have know them for quite a few years. But there are vendors and others that lurk around the corners to pickup expensive knives.


----------



## rick alan

hashbrownclown said:


> I have come across line cooks in my lifetime that have used the worst knives known to the profession, that have produced some of the most beautiful dishes that one can imagine. On the other hand I have worked with lets say name brand chefs that couldnt cut a small dice consistantly let alone a brunoise.
> 
> High end knives have a place and that is at home or locked in a vault. Or both for that fact. lol
> 
> I love the speaker anology, thats sum funny stuff right there! I dont care who you are. Larry the cable guy quote
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> TheHashbrownClown


No offense hbc, but you are showing some apparent, though perhaps completely unintentional, pompous ignorance here. Even with my trusty vintage translucent Ark (an exceptional razor finishing stone) I hardly get my well thinned Victorinox 10" chefs sharp enough to cut a decent, let alone consitant, <1.0mm slice of anything, worse so where any board contact is involved. Oh with some unreasonable effort I'm sure I could get that gummy stainless to make a few half decent cuts anyway.

It is certainly true that very many great dishes don't require such surgical cutting, and can be made with any NSF knife. But if you should truly feel that haute cuisine can do without [non-decorative] prep items like that altogether, along with the knives that can conveniently make them, then I'm afraid you have seriously limited yourself here. Not that this was actually your intention, the limitation of less than perfectly constructed words being what they are.

Rick


----------



## hashbrownclown

What a way to welcome someone new to the site. Hi Rick, my name is J.c. it is really nice to meet you. I am sorry that you think that I am ignorant. By all means I am far from that sir. I have over 25 years of commercial kitchen life (fast casual, upscale, catering, and private). I would take the ignorance comment to heart. But I think that we are on two different levels my friend. So my fault for coming at this with my professional background in mind. I did not realize that your comment is coming from a cook from home! You show me a set of shun knives set into a fast causal affair and I will show you a set of knives that will disappear right before your eyes! That is all that I am saying, again forgive me for I do not know that I had to be so literal. I will reiterate again, a knife is as only as good as the Chef who holds it! I can show you the works of what can be achieved with sub par knives! 

I got on this site to make new aquaintances not emenies my friend. The only thing that I was saying is that Shun knives are worth their money, very well worth it. But the kitchens that most professional Chefs and line cooks reside. It is not perhaps the best tools to use because I promise you that they will walk off. I have watched (not literally) Wustof's walk off the line.

I forgive you my friend! God bless and happy holidays.


----------



## Iceman

> I have come across line cooks in my lifetime that have used the worst knives known to the profession, that have produced some of the most beautiful dishes that one can imagine. On the other hand I have worked with lets say name brand chefs that couldnt cut a small dice consistantly let alone a brunoise.


*WOW.* _I wish maybe that I might have said that._

This is really good too: 


> ... a knife is as only as good as the Chef who holds it! I can show you the works of what can be achieved with sub par knives!


Brilliant! Again ... I wish I would have said that.

It amazes me how many people with little or no _"Professional Kitchen"_ experience just don't realize that high-quality stuff can amazingly get legs/wings and migrate away from the original owner.


----------



## maritsa

I have one high end knife and I don't use it as often as I would like. My dad has had his Henkle knife for something like a million years. One thing I should never have gotten a knife with grantons or quiter release holes because unlike my dad's knife I can only sharpen it to a certain point and any further removes my bragging rights that I have owned and reshaped a beautiful knife a million years too Lol. To each their own. I'm sure some people love the Shun and think it's worth every penny. My dad things his knife is.


----------



## rick alan

Welcome to Cheftalk J.c./hbc. You would think with that moniker you'd have a lighter attitude about yourself, certainly at least that you would take no offence where none was of any necessity intended. Especially in a necro-post that just refuses to die and continues receiving life-support almost solely for its entertainment value at this time. Much around here is said in not all seriousness, and rather dryly at times. I am very sorry you seem to have taken things otherwise.

But I have to say that for all your talk of pro vs home cook, your dancing around my comments is not exactly professional of you. You might have very professionally responded with something like, "Well yes of course there is some work that demands more than a Ginsu, didn't mean to imply otherwise, you sweet silly amateur."

I once had a Ph.D. psychologist tell me in an internet forum that I was ignorant and wallowing in fantasy psychology to think that subconscious complexes affect memory (I am not a degreed psychologist, but I do have some esoteric knowledge of the subject never the less). He then told me to read his reference book on the matter of memory. I told him I found his own comments fantastical but I would take a look and report back, having much more than a sneaking suspicion this was going to be good for a real laugh. There just so happened to be a copy at my library, and right there on the dust jacket it said quite clearly that subconscious complexes are one of a number of elements that affect the accuracy of memory. This [blithering idiot] hiding behind a Ph.D. didn't even know what a subconscious complex is! And this level of idiocy is actually not so uncommon in the immature science of psychology. Yet mercifully, I guess, that subconscious of his blinded him from his own ignorance. Too bad it could not save him from me, as I only had pity for the unfortunates that cruel fate had led them to be this individual's clients.

I have great respect for the professionals here, and am very grateful for the information they so generously impart. But in a discussion please do not simply pull the pro-card out as if it in itself is justification for your position.

And BTW, I personally don't think so highly of Shun, and there knives around a $100, certainly less than $150, that can perform most all fine-cutting operations pretty well, especially as compared to a Shun.

Winding down, funny dream I had last night, as a result of this I guess, ChefBubba berated both of us for not making sufficient use of appropriate technical terminology like chiffonade, julien, katsuramuki, etc etc.

And speaking of memory,Iceman, you have said those things before, the Shadow knows!

Rick


----------



## chefbuba

How did I get involved in this?


----------



## hashbrownclown

Funny Rick. Again its all good my friend you may have some points. So let that be just that.  I am not waiving my pro card but when you insult a person by calling them as you have and have in the past. Yes in the past! It is quite disrespectful and rude. I am not the type of person to let one like you do that! Period! I am not perfect by any means and I have to admit I am not a knife snob by any means and perhaps I have put my opinion where it does not belong. I am a snob of great knife skills, if one does not have those skills I help them develop them. But I have gone down this road to be insulted by just an opionated thought. I think you have totally misunderstood some if not all of what I have said. Personally I kinda feel like you need to bully someone with your bull crap antics! Yes I am new here and I plan to stay. I like the community so far with the exception of feeling like I have to divulge into the bucket of your bull crap. So please if you do not have anything nice to say please move on and leave me alone on this subject. If you have never worked (lived) in a kitchen you would have no clue on to what extent I am talking about. 

So lets just keep this "Are Shun knives really worth the price"! 

Please leave teh rest of you rude and immoral thoughts to yourself. No one cares about your descrepancy with others expecially in fields that have no relivance to the talk at hand. 

chefbubba, I have no idea how you got thrown into it. I think he is just looking for more to gang up or more to pick on.

Rick, I am a free spirited, kind, and gentle soul. I use to be a person like you who would come into a forum and bash and try to de moralize people. Its not cool my friend not cool at all. 

My screen name represents me as such! I love hashbrowns (who dont) and I love to clown around and have fun. Again I am person you loves to have fun and not really at others expense


----------



## rick alan

HBC, I feel like I'm hearing from 2 different versions of you, so with my slow language processing at the moment I don't know what to take serious or not.  So I will just say that in the past, and likely also in the future, I dealt with others exactly how they dealt with me.

Now, please don't pick on and/or further confuse the autistic kid here anymore anyone, there are plenty of other targets hit.  ;-)~

Rick

PS  chefbuba, you where just a dream, though to others who knows judging from recent events, you may well have appeared a nightmare.


----------



## cheflayne

Are you guys finished now?


----------



## rick alan

The only thing I'll wager on here is whether or not this post is finished.  I'll put a saw-buck on No.

Rick


----------



## brianshaw

PM me your mailing address Rick... I'll send you a dollar. There is no reason to terminate the thread. Why would there be... because there are opinions that differ from yours? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## rick alan

Brian, aside from the extreme irony in it's close, coming as it does from you, I'm afraid your comment makes no sense to me.


----------



## kuan

cheflayne said:


> Are you guys finished now?


I second this.


----------



## msbirdchat

Price vs value fully depends on what the price was upon purchase. A Shun knife at full price compared to some of the brands liked by some of you, might be more attractive when offered at half price.

For a home cook, like me, the Shun knives are just fine.

I also have one Misono 8.5" chef knife. It is very sharp, and keeps very sharp for very long periods.

For a home cook, like me, it is hard to know which brands to buy online because very few brands are offered in stores like
Williams Sonoma, so Shun is easy to find and see, and they perform just fine.


----------



## ietinker

Well this old thread has gotten highly entertaining.

My favorite knife until recently was a Shun santuko that I thought was the greatest thing, such an upgrade from the old Henckles set I bought 10 years ago. Then I decided there had to be something better, came to this forum and left with a Hiramoto gyuto for $100 that trumps the Shun. I keep both sharp although the Hiramoto keeps an edge longer. The gyuto has become my everyday knife and I use it (again on advice from this bunch) for just about anything I can except sawing through bones, bread or fileting a fish.

So keep up the banter guys, us commoners get a kick out of it. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif

Michael


----------



## millionsknives

Well I could let this thread die... or I can post this Shun giveaway!

https://a.pgtb.me/nrVB2q

The price is finally right


----------



## wrobelan

Right now the Kaji 6" Kiritsuke is on sale for 79.99. It is a great knife for that price even if you are not a fan of Shun. I have the 8" blue kiritsuke and use it everyday. I think that Shuns are great if you can get them at half price or better.


----------



## galley swiller

I took a look at the Williams-Sonoma web page for the Shun Kaji Kiritsuke. http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/shun-kaji-kiritsuke-knife/

Good features: it's SG2 steel edge, 6 inch and a much flatter profile edge than the vast bulk of Shuns. AND it's only $79.99!!

Iffy feature: I don't know how good Kai's heat treatment for SG2 steel is, or what edge bevel angles Kai puts on this knife.

Bad feature: It's 65 layered Damascus. As soon as it gets scratched up, then the "collector's value" will drop big-time. To restore, the scratches need to be polished out, then the blade re-etched with etching chemicals (which then needs to be disposed of as a hazardous waste and not just dumped down the drain - unless you want to find yourself facing the risk of court action and multi-thousand dollar mitigation costs, court fines and jail time, if the court feels that you were just careless).

SG2, and other powdered metallurgy technology edges can be very good - IF they are done right. For a double bevel SG2, the primary bevel on each side needs to be not less than 15[sup]o[/sup] on each side, or 30[sup]o[/sup] combined. Otherwise, you run the risk of carbide loss and chipping, big-time.

Where SG2 and other R2 steel blades shine is in thinning behind the edge. Wedging can be dropped down significantly by thinning the blade behind the edge - and SG2 and R2 steels can hold that thinned blade very, VERY well. It makes up for the otherwise rather beefy combined primary bevel angle.

However, Damascus effect cladding can result in a thickening behind the edge. Kinda makes you wonder about why a SG2 or R2 core steel would be used with Damascus in the first place.

Galley Swiller


----------



## maritsa

I have a Calphalon carbon steel knife that also needs to be babied but honestly won't require that kind of maintaining and I've used the 8" chef's knife for 5 years now works great.


----------



## loomchick

I would buy the 6" Shun Kaji Kiritsuke in a heartbeat if it was $79.99; however, when I clicked on the link, it shows its $149.95.


----------



## maritsa

Loomchick said:


> I would buy the 6" Shun Kaji Kiritsuke in a heartbeat if it was $79.99; however, when I clicked on the link, it shows its $149.95.


This? http://www.williams-sonoma.com/m/products/shun-classic-western-chefs-knife/?cm_src=AutoRel


----------



## loomchick

Thanks.  That is the classic 6" Shun, which is my favorite knife.  I own two.  However, the comment above was for the Shun Kaji Kiritsuke, which I would love for $79.99 . . . not the $149.95 shown.


----------



## galley swiller

Loomchick and Maritsa, that shows the difference a single day can make.  Yesterday (Sunday 12/6/2015), the price was $79.99.  Today, 12/7/2015, the price is $149.95.  Almost $70 increase in just a single day.  Ahhh, the infamy of computerized price setting.

GS


----------



## loomchick

Pity.  I would really like a Shun Kaji Kiritsuke . . . especially at $79.99.


----------



## civ79

I agree with you as far as the shun's being good for prep. I use a 10" shun chefs knife and I love it. Sharp as a razor out of the box but very brittle. One of my cooks dropped it and broke off the tip and on heavier applications I have chipped the edge. I had it repaired at a shop and now the blade is great. I have not put it to the stone in over five months and this thing gets a lot of time on a board. In the beginning I was skeptical but now I'm a believer. Love it! Global is a decent choice as well I've had my 8" vegetable cleaver for 17 years and no complaints yet.


----------



## sarah001

I had a Shun knife for a while, but eventually decided it was uncomfortable in my hand. It really depends on the person, but I have been much happier with my Misono UX10 for the last 8 years, because it is lightweight and stays super sharp for a long time.


----------



## maritsa

Galley Swiller said:


> Loomchick and Maritsa, that shows the difference a single day can make. Yesterday (Sunday 12/6/2015), the price was $79.99. Today, 12/7/2015, the price is $149.95. Almost $70 increase in just a single day. Ahhh, the infamy of computerized price setting.
> 
> GS


 welcome to America


----------



## rick alan

The question of Shun's heat treat of SG2 was brought up again.  Though it is not going to compare to a Tanaka, I do understand now that Shun is currently doing a decent job there, so I will retract my statement to the contrary made on page 3 .  It does have to be kept in mind that SG2 is a relatively brittle steel and needs to be micro-bevelled for board work and used in a skillful way, no twisting or slamming into the board, no frozen stuff or contacting bone, not as anything approaching  beater knife.

Rick


----------



## mike9

I just got a used Shun paring knife in SG2 and it takes a very keen edge and so far is holding it as I put it through its paces.  I did put a micro bevel on it after establishing a good cutting edge and it's holding up fine.  A little realignment on a Mac ceramic and it's good for another round.  Very nice damascus pattern and one of the nicest laminate handles I've seen.  This is patterned after the Kramer line.


----------



## wrobelan

I think if you are patient you will find the Kaji for $79.99 again. The Classic model Kiritsuke is currently $100. They fluctuate greatly and go on sale frequently at WS. I generally buy all my products from them at a significant discount.

Best.

Andrew


----------



## ramatsu

Interesting to follow this thread; I'm squarely in the newbie range on all this, so I'm probably at that "rite of passage" stage someone mentioned. I can only hope I find enough time to cook that I will grow out of my Shuns.

I bought 5 Shun classics including a santoku, a chef's, a boning knife, their wave-edged utility, and a parer at 50% off when a local kitchen store closed. They were still spendy at half off for a casual home cook like me, and I'm sure I never would have sprung for any at full price. The edges were a revelation, and everyone I showed them to seemed to end up needing a band-aid because apparently we're all used to being able to touch a knife edge without it parting skin like a light saber. 

After a few years, I still love them but have a couple of observations. It was interesting to hear someone here say the chef's is "chippy," I got a couple of knicks in mine despite very careful handling. And because I still haven't undertaken the work to know how to do more than casual edge maintenance, I sent them all in for re-sharpening at the factory last year. They came back very nicely sharp, but I don't believe they were able to get the same edge on them they had when new. (In the case of the chef's, I hypothesized that due to the knicks, they had to grind back far enough that they weren't able to get the same bevel as new, but I don't know. The others were similarly sharp but not scary.)

A few people have cited the asymmetrical D handle as a downside. My wife and I are both right-handed, so that's not an issue for us and the handle is actually one of the things I love the most about the feel of the Shuns. That's obviously a personal feel kind of thing, so shouldn't be taken as a global endorsement of the design, and hopefully anyone shopping for knives from this price range up will have the good sense to handle them first to see how they feel to you personally. But for me, the Shun D handle feels so much better in the hand than my old Henckels and Wüsthofs did, that it is worth half the price of the upgrade.

I look forward to getting the most out of these, and really appreciate that there's a forum like this where I can come and get some non-marketing education if/when I outgrow them. And to hear knife brands compared to old high-end speaker brands. How do Shuns compare to Magnaplanars? J-knifes are comparably thin...


----------



## guxx

On a personal note, most of the cooking fun comes from buying and sharpening the knife,,,diversity, and searching for the 'perfect' knife is the best. Please think carefully before buying mass-produced 'cookie-cutter' tools.  Takeda.


----------



## foody518

ramatsu said:


> Interesting to follow this thread; I'm squarely in the newbie range on all this, so I'm probably at that "rite of passage" stage someone mentioned. I can only hope I find enough time to cook that I will grow out of my Shuns.
> 
> I bought 5 Shun classics including a santoku, a chef's, a boning knife, their wave-edged utility, and a parer at 50% off when a local kitchen store closed. They were still spendy at half off for a casual home cook like me, and I'm sure I never would have sprung for any at full price. The edges were a revelation, and everyone I showed them to seemed to end up needing a band-aid because apparently we're all used to being able to touch a knife edge without it parting skin like a light saber.
> 
> After a few years, I still love them but have a couple of observations. It was interesting to hear someone here say the chef's is "chippy," I got a couple of knicks in mine despite very careful handling. And because I still haven't undertaken the work to know how to do more than casual edge maintenance, I sent them all in for re-sharpening at the factory last year. They came back very nicely sharp, but I don't believe they were able to get the same edge on them they had when new. (In the case of the chef's, I hypothesized that due to the knicks, they had to grind back far enough that they weren't able to get the same bevel as new, but I don't know. The others were similarly sharp but not scary.)
> 
> What are you considering casual edge maintenance?
> 
> I hope you continue to make strides in your knife learnings  Most knives like these can get MUCH sharper than their new, "out of the box" edge with some TLC on the stones.
> 
> A few people have cited the asymmetrical D handle as a downside. My wife and I are both right-handed, so that's not an issue for us and the handle is actually one of the things I love the most about the feel of the Shuns. That's obviously a personal feel kind of thing, so shouldn't be taken as a global endorsement of the design, and hopefully anyone shopping for knives from this price range up will have the good sense to handle them first to see how they feel to you personally. But for me, the Shun D handle feels so much better in the hand than my old Henckels and Wüsthofs did, that it is worth half the price of the upgrade.
> 
> I look forward to getting the most out of these, and really appreciate that there's a forum like this where I can come and get some non-marketing education if/when I outgrow them. And to hear knife brands compared to old high-end speaker brands. How do Shuns compare to Magnaplanars? J-knifes are comparably thin...


Depending on where you live, you may have a cool knife shop or restaurant supply store that stocks some J-knives that aren't sold in your typical brick and mortar stores. If so, that might be a chance to explore more knives


----------



## ramatsu

Thanks foody518! By "casual edge maintenance," I guess I probably mean "neglecting my knives." I steel them before most uses, and sometimes before putting them away. I got the Shun sharpening stone/steel kit for Christmas, though after seeing all the discussions about stones here, perhaps I should have done more research before asking for it. 

I've made a halfhearted attempt to put a better edge on the santoku with that, but it's only a 6000 so I imagine that's pretty limiting from what I've read here. It didn't produce dramatic results, but then as I say, I was working without a lot of confidence about my sharpening technique.

I've done some online searching in the past for sharpening techniques, but never found anything that made me super confident, so I guess I'm waiting for an opportunity to get some hands-on training at some point. 

I avoided sharpening anything finer than a lawn mower blade most of my life, but have started to enjoy putting an edge on some of my woodworking tools in recent years, and have mostly gotten over being intimidated by the process. But I have a long way to go and will look for a pro to show me on the Shuns before I do anything drastic to them that might move me on to my next knives before I'm ready to spend the money!


----------



## foody518

Their steel is junk. I have it; it's never touched more than my Cutco when I was considering teaching myself to steel my knives instead of just stropping them on leather/balsa or a fine stone (I find angle holding for the rods much harder than running the edge along a wide flat surface). The grooves on the steel are just not fine at all. A bad pairing with the type of steel the Shun knives are made of.

The 6k stone won't really do anything to an edge that's been steeled before every use without a recent prior stone sharpening up to that 6k or so grit level of refinement (if the factory sharpening didn't send you back knives with more or less mirror finished bevels then they probably didn't get close to the 6k range).

I hope you've found the sharpening playlist on Japanese Knife Imports Youtube channel. For me, it's been some of the best video tutorials I've found.

Hands on training may cost you :3 and sometimes it's location dependent. I'm trying to get myself to one sometime in the next year or so 

One thing I've loved about the knife journey is sheer amount of craftsmanship in some of these knives that you find the longer you look around and read about stuff that isn't in your brick and mortar stores.  similar to GUXX's comment

edit: last paragraph


----------



## ramatsu

Thanks, I'll check out that YouTube series! Sad to hear the steel may not be all that. I haven't been sure it's been as effective as the old steels I inherited from my grandparents, but I thought it might be because those old ones were even coarser in the grooves. Blech.


----------



## brianshaw

Get a ceramic hone rod ASAP. You won't regret it.

Steel honing rods have a place for knives, but not the hard steel Japanese knives. 

The only steel honing rod I use for Shun is completely smooth, and it gets applied very gently. None of that knife slapping the steel like TV chefs like to do.


----------



## foody518

Alternately since you've got that 6k stone you could also learn to do strop strokes on it in place of using the honing rod. It'll be more effective after a proper sharpening though.


----------



## ietinker

I use a steel on my Shun santoku but only stones on the Hiromoto gyuto.  Sounds like I too need to pick up a honing rod.  Any brand recommendations?

MG


----------



## chefchrisr

Shun is a great company and makes a great knife. I've used them for years, and I still love them. The thing is there are so many other awesome knives out there. If you want to spend some moderate dough, check out Miyabi Knives. They are awesome, and suuuuper sharp.

If you want some different, cool knives check out http://www.buychefsknives.com. If you want to find some awesome Japanese Knives check out http://www.chefknivestogo.com.

Either way, yes, Shun is amazing, but you could get a Miyabi or Haiku Damascus for even less, and they are extrodinary.


----------



## jerry5022

Are we talking about Shun? If so it is Japanese, not French


----------



## rick alan

.


----------



## brianshaw

. .


----------



## prigreta

But I like this, I think so


----------



## kartman35

You say you got the Shun Stone/steel combo and it's only a 6000...

The only stone steel combo by Shun at W&S has a 1K/6K combo stone...are you sure you don't have a 1000 grit on the flip side?  If so you're all set.  Just study the youtube knife sharpening playlist from Japanese knife Imports mentioned earlier.  Watch every video that relates to double bevel sharpening on there and you're off to the races.  Practice on beater knives to start with.

The only thing you'll need to buy is something to flatten your stone.  On a budget there's drywall screen on a flat hard surface and the more pleasant way is with an XXC diamond plate.  And oh yeah a magic marker if you don't already have one.  Also try and save the cork from your next bottle of wine.

Any time you feel the need to reach for a steel, just do a few passes on the fine side like Foody said.  

But seriously watch those videos.  Jon is the best out there not only at sharpening, but also at explaining sharpening.  With the stuff you have you can make you knives sharper than when you got them, and keep them that way all the time.  

Have fun

Maybe pick up some band aids if you don't have any..


----------



## kartman35

Oh yeah and since we're plugging our favorite vendors, my vote goes to Japanese Knife Imports.  By far the best customer service I've ever had from any business of any kind I've ever dealt with, and everything I've bought from them has been fantastic.  Besides which Jon taught me how sharpen my knives with those vids.  

And he's the most interesting knife vendor in the world...


----------



## mgs3

Short answer NO!!!!   I purchased a 7" Shun Santoku knife and at first I really liked it.  Then Christmas arrived and my diminutive wife was using it to slice some Serrano ham off of the bone when the knife chipped in two places.  The chips in the knife are large.  One is scallop shaped about the size and shape of a serrated bread knife, the other is a deep hack.  None of our other knives have ever had such problems (Global, MAC, Wusthof, Henkels).  I took the knife back to the store and they refused to exchange it, saying Shun knives are only appropriate for cutting vegetables and they frequently saw problems such as ours when used around meat bones.  In my opinion kitchen knives, especially ones as expensive as these, should be capable of handling typical use in a kitchen. The other thing about the knives is they are a weird hybrid of Japanese and European knife forms.  They are big heavy knives like a European knife with the outward appearance of Japanese knives that are much thinner and lighter.


----------



## rick alan

This post should have died years ago, but the fact is the ammo keeps coming.  I had given up shun bashing but given recent events I'm taking it back up again.

Plain ignorance and odd, vague individual preferences aside, shun are very mediocre and overpriced examples of cutlery.  You simply can't get around the fact that for 1/3 the typical selling prices for both, a Tojiro DP is a superior performer in all respects.  And the Tojiro is of course an entry level Japanese knife.  And Shun is not a Japanese knife as a recent poster suggested.  It is for all practical purposes a German knife made in Japan of Japanese steel.

Well the above has been said many times before and by many different commentors, but now we come to the shun so-called "warranty."  The fact is that it in actuality does not exist, as mg3 has just intimated.

I recently sent my defective shun back and it also was refused warranty, claiming that nothing was wrong with the heat treat, oh but it gets better.

After presenting the evidence and hearing the denials I essentially told the warranty manager that he and his company where all lying scum and that he should just send my knife back.

What they did before that was a typical shun sharpening.  This involved removing 3mm of metal from the edge and providing a cutting angle of an outrageous 25deg/side.  They may have done the latter because I explained the faulty HT would not allow for a steep angle.  These folks are just donkeys and camels.

When you consider that even CKTG honors any performance related defects in what they sell, you have an idea how absolutely rotten to the core shun is, because Mark is not known as the most scrupulous of vendors, and most knife makers stand by their product.  And of course I'm sure the only exception is he would not take responsibility for anything shun he sells.  

In conclusion, shun makes knives that absolutely no one should consider spending real money on.  Well their stainless san-mai lines anyway, as the Blue#2 knives are decent, if you care for the particular design.  And if you have to buy at places like WS, SLT or CaM, go Myabi which is are typically far better in design, instead of buying from slime who populate their ranks with dumb and brain damaged beasts.


----------



## brianshaw

Yawn.


----------



## rick alan

Such a tough audience, I am just an amateur as an entertainer after all.


----------



## just jim

Are they worth it?

If you think so, then yes.

If not, then no.

It's all pretty subjective.

They are a boutique knife, more form than function.

Miyabi's are similar. Henckels jumping in on the Japanese blade trend.

I have a few different Shun's, Classic, Blue and Ken Onion.

I like them, so to me they are worth it.

I have less expensive Japanese knives that look as nice and perform better, and those are definitely worth it.

I don't use my Shun's or my nicer Asian knives for heavy work, I save bone work, or say, butternut squash for my F.Dick or other such tough German type knives.


----------



## rick alan

Just Jim said:


> They are a boutique knife, more form than function.


 Yes but they are marketed as high performance blades, primarily to a customer base that has the means of acquisition but not the understanding of the category.


----------



## brianshaw

And they're laughing their way all the way to the bank I imagine.


----------



## rick alan

Disposable income is a joy, and often a measure of how well we do in the world in general.


----------



## foody518

I'm always a fan of better information dissemination in general. We just have really awful marketing practices that don't easily allow that.


----------



## brianshaw

Well, perhaps. As a whole Kai is currently selling about $100M per year. Anyone who thinks the sell that much based on fraudulent claims and screwing people on warantee claims is perhaps just angry or jealous or dillusional.

I don't know why a few random internet dilettantes just can't live and let live.


----------



## foody518

Kai sells a lot of cheap simple stuff to the Japanese market and elsewhere as well, right? I've seen enough of their colorful ceramic knives to conclude that they are doing well 

Unfortunately in most of the US it seems you have to scour the internet to find comparable knives like the Tojiro DP for half the price of the Classic. And the fact that the Gesshin Urakus run about the same price as the Classics is crazy to me. Honestly I could think of a few people who might actually consider getting a knife like a Tojiro DP...if they knew it existed. Hence my frustration with information dissemination and the smothering nature of our marketing.

So then there is a bad rap created of being a fanatic or taking an exotic risk to be on the internet buying knives or trying to learn basic stuff when if I lived in Tokyo I could probably just drop into a brick and mortar store and get something Tojiro quality or better. What if we had that kind of situation with cars, not knowing about much better cars for some same price, or buying X quality cars for double the price they go for elsewhere in the world? And then getting criticism or weird looks about why not just getting the stuff sold in the local dealerships?

Make people aware of the multitude of options in a given price range, give information about them, and then let them decide what would work for them. I just don't like throttling the options down to the big brand names when other things exist.


----------



## rick alan

BrianShaw said:


> Well, perhaps. As a whole Kai is currently selling about $100M per year. Anyone who thinks the sell that much based on fraudulent claims and screwing people on warantee claims is perhaps just angry or jealous or dillusional.
> 
> I don't know why a few random internet dilettantes just can't live and let live.


This has been addressed Brian, Galley Swiller gave quite a professional and thorough overview on the subject of Shun's marketing strategy, and you should really consider that it is you who is actually naive here. As Adolf Hitler said, "If you are going to lie to the people, make it a really big lie, they will be less inclined to believe you would try to deceive them with such a lie." Politicians and other tyrants throughout history have done it with great success, and Shun has done it, as everyone who knows anything about knife construction is well aware of.


----------



## brianshaw

Foodie... Yes, The overall Kai product line is diverse. 

I have no problem with diversity of opinion or diversity of product. Information dissemination is difficult, especially when the company is smaller or simply doesn't do good marketing. I get frustrated too. 

But continually calling a well established company with a well established product line that sells quite well fraudulent or low quality... Or accusing anyone who's needs are met by that product as "stupid" or "ill informed" is just ridiculous. Many of the poor quality claims just don't pass the sniff test. I'm sure the problem happened... But knives don't spontaneously shatter or chip when cutting soft fruit. They just don't do that.


----------



## brianshaw

Rick Alan said:


> This has been addressed Brian, Galley Swiller gave quite a professional and thorough overview of the subject of Shun's marketing strategy, and you should really consider that it is you who is actually naive here. As Adolf Hitler said, "If you are going to lie to the people, make it a really big lie, they will be less inclined to believe you would try to deceive them with such a lie. Politicians throughout history have done it with great succes, and Shun has done it, as everyone who knows anything about knife construction is well aware of.


Rick, please don't regress to an insulting attitude. I don't deserve that from you. You don't know me well enough for that. We can have a difference of opinion without calling each other names!

I understood his comments but, although not a marketing guy, took it with a big grain of salt. I know enough about business management and engineering to do that.


----------



## Iceman

Something I find really really funny when I read all this "Shun stuff" ... is that there are still other people out there in the world completely outside of the internet forum spectrum. People that don't talk about stuff on forums. They've got absolutely no clue in the whole world of the opinions of experts here. On top of that ... there are other forums on the internet that just happen to have a section where threads about knives come up sometimes. What I'm getting at here is that some people actually LIKE their Shun knives and ... get this ... actually think they are the top of the line stuff. Now even better than that ... are you ready? ... Some people actually LOVE their "Cutco" knives. I'm serious here. I used to sell that stuff. People love Cutco. I've never been able to figure it out. Some of these people actually have lots of $$$ too. Clients of mine that enjoy $400 bottles of wine when I cook for them. Crazy rich people. Life is goofy sometimes.


----------



## grande

I've known a few chefs that loved their Shuns and used them for years, long after the pretty finishes were gone. They're fine knives that cut things - not my cup of tea for work, but I had one at home and liked it fine. I'm just glad the Global craze seems to be over, I really hate globals.


----------



## rick alan

BrianShaw said:


> Well, perhaps. As a whole Kai is currently selling about $100M per year. Anyone who thinks the sell that much based on fraudulent claims and screwing people on warantee claims is perhaps just angry or jealous or dillusional.
> 
> I don't know why a few random internet dilettantes just can't live and let live.





BrianShaw said:


> Rick, please don't regress to an insulting attitude. I don't deserve that from you. You don't know me well enough for that. We can have a difference of opinion without calling each other names!
> 
> I understood his comments but, although not a marketing guy, took it with a big grain of salt. I know enough about business management and engineering to do that.


Brian, and this is not the first time I've pointed this out to you, but the unfavorable response you feel you get from myself and others is always a direct response to your own unfavorable comments.

No one was trying to bate you here, I really am not passionate about what other people like in knives, and for myself I was just blowing off steam here after being unacceptably violated by Kai USA.

They did not honor their warranty, many have complained of this, and they did further damage to my knife which I also did not ask for, and others have complained of this same thing also, and I actually believe this is intentional on Kai's part and further evidence of their sleaze. Removing about 50 fold more metal than is necessary to sharpen a knife, aside from sharpening to a ridiculous angle and the likely nefarious intent there, oh come now.

And I do not appreciate your inference that I and others here are just angry, or jealous, or delusional internet dilettantes. So we are more than even here.

And given your comments I do question your understanding as well as knowledge of business management and engineering, the latter of which, as a professional opinion, I am quite certain you understand nothing of.

So let us regain our senses of humor and move on.


----------



## brianshaw

Ah, Rick... Dismissive again with no basis other than your arrogant "professional" opinion. Discounting other folks opinion and experience just because it differs from yours is rather short-sighted... And unprofessional, wouldn't you say?

I know you did not get satisfaction and I'm sorry for that. I don't know what else to say. I have had good experiences and not the problems a statistical minority report. And, yes, I believe it is a statistical minority based on the fact that the company is thriving and their product continues to sell. That doesn't happen when there are profound engineering, manufacturing, or customer service defects. 

But as for your opinion of me... I have regained my sense of humor; I'm laughing now. Thanks!

Vent away, Amigo. We can have a difference of experience and option, can't we?


----------



## rick alan

yawn

Brian you can't help but be dismissive of an individual who one day says shuns are great knives and the next day says they are crap compared to a vintage Forgecraft [which is no great knife in itself]. And is so arrogant in his ignorance as to state that Japanese chefs are all deluded about what sharp knives contribute to product quality.

yawn

Now enough, let's re-enact the truce we had and go on to enjoy the comments we find agreement in.


----------



## rick alan

I do not sling poop here just stating pertinent facts.   And your comments which started out badly have become over the top unacceptable so this has been brought to the moderator's attention.


----------



## brianshaw

Fair enough. I welcome a moderators comment. 

But I must say that pulling bits and pieces of past discussions and presenting them out of context is completely bewildering and a bit childish. That's the poop slinging... Not your professional assessment of knives, steel, or cutting techniques, or your personal experiences with a particular knife manufacturer.

Truce... Sure... But how about some mutual respect too!


----------



## kuan

I agree.  Please call a truce.

This thread reads as if the both of you have something against each other.  You may start another thread about Shun knives consisting and argue there but a lot of good information from a thread can be lost in all the noise.


----------



## brianshaw

Done. Thanks for your input, Kuan.


----------



## rick alan

Kuan rather than debate the merits of Brian's final assault why not just delete all the unproductive comments in the thread.


----------



## just jim

BrianShaw said:


> Get a ceramic hone rod ASAP. You won't regret it.
> 
> Steel honing rods have a place for knives, but not the hard steel Japanese knives.
> 
> The only steel honing rod I use for Shun is completely smooth, and it gets applied very gently. None of that knife slapping the steel like TV chefs like to do.


Good advice. I actually use a global ceramic hone, and store the hone in an idahone sheath in my knife roll.


----------



## ietinker

Thanks Just Jim, back on topic.

MG


----------



## guxx

Shun knives suck.


----------



## mike9

GUXX said:


> Shun knives suck.


That's pretty blanket IMO. I have two - a Shun Reserve paring knife that is like a Bob Kramer and a 4" classic paring knife. The reserve is an excellent knife and the classic is one of their best profiles for that series really the chef's knife should have that profile - very Sab like. My wife has a classic santoku and while I have to maintain it she like the feel and performance.


----------



## ncc7

Hi BLD.  I want to get my wife a nice 8" Chef knife.  She is a professional chef and her choice is usually MAC.  I am looking for a Japanese knife.  Please help, what would you recommend.  Thanks Nic


----------



## brianshaw

NCC7 said:


> Hi BLD. I want to get my wife a nice 8" Chef knife. She is a professional chef and her choice is usually MAC. I am looking for a Japanese knife. Please help, what would you recommend. Thanks Nic


BDL is no longer here, Nic. You missed him by a couple of years. Read around the numerous threads asking the same question and you will see a rather interesting diversity of opinion and experience.


----------



## foody518

Gesshin Kagero with the western handle (though I think still out of stock) is a potential stainless option, as is Hattori FH. Also last I checked on JCK the Hiromoto Gingami 270mm gyuto is still there, though perhaps a bit over the size requirement.

It would help if you put a rough budget range.


----------



## elissa

Johnny P said:


> I'm not prepared to spend almost $500. for a French Knife. Great looking cutlery, but can anyone tell me if they are really worth the price?


----------



## playero

Wow great action. Really like the enthusiasm that most discussion on some subjects generate. I have some Shuns most are limited edition and are used not that much. they seem good but have other knives that I use more. Have a 2.5-3 lb cleaver that will smack anything you want, even in the garden. I try not to use the more expensive knives near frozen foods or bones or granite tops etc. As for the having legs we had cameras in my place were we served close to 300 tables. you have to be very careful because your knives would get misplaced almost daily if you get the meaning. the workers took me to Dept of labor a couple of times since when you " shut the doors and every bag will be checked same as lockers" apparently violates something or some law. But the knife always was found. Found one in the bathroom or so they said and another in the washing station.

Back to Shun it is a fair company that is in the business. they sell a lot of knives so they will have some problems with some, mass production rule specially with heat treatment and flexibility since some of them are stamped or not treated equally.

would suggest that the person go to surlatable or ws or somewhere that the knife can be handled somewhat so to see if they like the feel or grip. when you use the knife for 3-6 hours per day is a different expierience all along.

sharpening is a different issue.

But as someone said a happy wife is a happy life.

As for myself have more than100 knives and counting between mine the ones I got from my grandfathers (owned a slaughter place for bulls, pigs etc.)  house when sold and the one got from my fathers when the house was sold. the sad thing have only two hands.

a good saying from Tony Bourdain you don't touch my ...... you don't touch my knife....


----------



## zeppo shanski

I just got one of these. It's small like a petty. It came very sharp ootb. I'll sharpen it on an electric CC sharpener until it's past usability, then I'll toss it out and get another knife of the moment for another $5.

http://www.pulsetv.com/Copper-Knife-Stays-Sharp-FOREVER/productinfo/7806/


----------



## chrislehrer

At the risk of asking an actual question about Shun knives...

Someone posted a link or two to Williams Sonoma selling the Shun 6" kiritsuke. I was confused, looked at the site. I'm still confused. In what sense is this a kiritsuke? Seems like a santoku to me.

As far as I know, the kiritsuke was invented in the early-middle 20th C as a single-bevel all-purpose knife for professionals. It's about 8"-10" long, single-beveled, with a gently curved blade and a sharp point; it is also rather heavy, as it has a somewhat thick spine to help it stand up to some abuse.

What is this Shun thing?


----------



## foody518

@ChrisLehrer some brands are selling a double beveled "kiritsuke", one of such versions has a flatter than gyuto blade profile and a narrower/less tall blade. And has a kiritsuke style pointed tip
As for a 6inch version, goodness only knows


----------



## jbroida

ChrisLehrer said:


> At the risk of asking an actual question about Shun knives...
> 
> Someone posted a link or two to Williams Sonoma selling the Shun 6" kiritsuke. I was confused, looked at the site. I'm still confused. In what sense is this a kiritsuke? Seems like a santoku to me.
> 
> As far as I know, the kiritsuke was invented in the early-middle 20th C as a single-bevel all-purpose knife for professionals. It's about 8"-10" long, single-beveled, with a gently curved blade and a sharp point; it is also rather heavy, as it has a somewhat thick spine to help it stand up to some abuse.
> 
> What is this Shun thing?


not quite all purpose... its specifically supposed to cover the functions of yanagiba and usuba


----------



## chrislehrer

JBroida said:


> not quite all purpose... its specifically supposed to cover the functions of yanagiba and usuba


True, not a deba. Good clarification.

I still think this Shun thing is weird....


----------



## jbroida

ChrisLehrer said:


> True, not a deba. Good clarification.
> 
> I still think this Shun thing is weird....


people be loving that kiritsuke shape... on one hand, i get that it looks cool, and the profile is slightly flatter, but i still just prefer a regular gyuto most of the time. Also, when it comes to kiritsuke, i still prefer a yanagiba or usuba in function for each of their respective tasks.


----------



## scott livesey

good discussion. I guess in Japan if you change the shape of the blade slightly, you can rename it. also it seems that folks in southern Japan don't like using northern Japanese knife names. For folks trying to figure out the difference between a kiritsuke or usuba or yanagiba or nakari or deba, try here http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml. find out the difference between a Ai-deba, a Miroshi deba, a Mioroshi Deba and a Hon Deba.

I have seen Shun knives once. The sale's lady at Williams/Sonoma needed two keys to open the display case, made sure the glass door was between me and the knives, then showed me blades thru the glass.


----------



## brianshaw

That's very odd , Scott, and sounds like a horrible experience. I've never experienced anything like that... Every W/S I've ever been in was either completely pushy or too casual but never rude. Once in a collectible watch shop and the clerk did something like that to me but told me that he was afraid of snatch-and-run thieves. He was (and still is) a complete odd-ball. You might want to speak to Management because that's just inhospitable treatment for a potential buyer.

Fascinating link... a lot of very specialized knife forms!


----------



## flapjack

Hello guys. IMHO Shun makes a very pretty knives. But would I kick out the dosh to have a set? No... But 1 or 2? Possibly. Depends on if I want a daily hard user or something pretty to show off and brag about. 
Let me back up a bit. I was going to buy a few Shun knives 3 years ago. I went to a friend of mine who sold them. I asked him if he might have any used for sale. He went in the back and brought out a big box of returned knives. I went through them all. And every one had multiple nicks and chips in the edge. This really put me off wanting a Shun knife. To fragile for my use. But some have said, I would work better with a battle ax than a knife.


----------



## scott livesey

morning.jpg




__
scott livesey


__
May 1, 2017








I probably looked like this and she was just protecting the store. what I was interested in seeing was this http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...fe/?pkey=cknives-shun|shun-hikari&isx=0.0.700 a $200 paring knife, 4" non-descript blade with 5" extra plain wood handle that weighs 3 1/2 oz.(My chef's knife weighs less than that) to continue the thread, is this Shun a better value than this Yoshikane that you can buy for the next 27 minutes for the incredible price of only $323.99? http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=95576


----------



## scott livesey

FlapJack said:


> Hello guys. IMHO Shun makes a very pretty knives. But would I kick out the dosh to have a set? No... But 1 or 2? Possibly. Depends on if I want a daily hard user or something pretty to show off and brag about.
> Let me back up a bit. I was going to buy a few Shun knives 3 years ago. I went to a friend of mine who sold them. I asked him if he might have any used for sale. He went in the back and brought out a big box of returned knives. I went through them all. And every one had multiple nicks and chips in the edge. This really put me off wanting a Shun knife. To fragile for my use. But some have said, I would work better with a battle ax than a knife.


It doesn't matter who makes the knife, someday you are going to hit something hard or at a bad angle with your blade. one of two things will happen to the blade. softer edges will fold and bend, needing a steel to straighten out. Harder edges will chip. . Me, I like a harder edge(Rc62-65) and try to be careful.


----------



## flapjack

Yes I agree. Never know, and it happens when you least expect it. 
I favor my Wusthofs which fill out most of my blocks. And I have a few,cheap knives when I head into unknown territory. And I have this 8" chefs I use a lot for things like that.
Here are two pics. Maybe you can ID it for me. I picked it up at a goodwill for $3.




  








image.jpeg




__
flapjack


__
May 1, 2017











  








image.jpeg




__
flapjack


__
May 1, 2017


----------



## foody518

FlapJack said:


> Yes I agree. Never know, and it happens when you least expect it.
> I favor my Wusthofs which fill out most of my blocks. And I have a few,cheap knives when I head into unknown territory. And I have this 8" chefs I use a lot for things like that.
> Here are two pics. Maybe you can ID it for me. I picked it up at a goodwill for $3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> flapjack
> 
> 
> __
> May 1, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> flapjack
> 
> 
> __
> May 1, 2017


Google search is telling me Michael Graves chefs knife


----------



## flapjack

Thanks, I couldn't figure it out.


----------



## linecookliz

My boss has a pair of Shun knives in the kitchen, which I had no clue until I looked them up one day. My shirt is too big for me and it snagged on the board causing the knife to fall on the ground and bend. Oops!

Anywho, I have been using them for a couple months. I don't like how they handle nor the nonexistent grip. The blade seems cheap for the price paid. I do like how pretty they are though.

I prefer to use the cheaper knives at work because they handle better and the blades are thicker; so it it easier for me to cut food. Plus most of them have grips. It just depends on what you like in a knife.


----------



## cambo

Gosh no! If youre going to spend over 100, buy a forged Japanese knife that isn't mass produced but comes from a highly skilled SMALL family company. Takamura, Misono, Togiharu, and Masamoto are some examples. 

French knife for $500??? sounds absurd. Is it a set?


----------



## foody518

Wouldn't recommend a Takamura without verifying if the user sharpens or knows a competent sharpener to send it to. Could be liable to see chips, not just normal wear microchipping, with simple home use

Dunno how small companies like Misono or Masamoto are, tbh


----------



## rick alan

Perceval is a French outfit making knives around the $500 range, can't say that I know whether they're worth it, most likely not.  They use a nitrogen laced steel, gives toughness and good corrosion resistance, but nothing high-tech and definitely this steel alone would not contribute to a $500 price tag.

K-Sab and Fischer Bargouin  have lines using 14C28, a first class Swedish stainless, the Fischers Zen line seem a particularly good bargain at this time.


----------



## rick alan

More of an inbetween of a Vic and Sab, and even something by Kramer thrown in I think, haha, I could dig it

http://www.thebestthings.com/knives/graphics/fischer_bargoin_chef_10_knife_lg.jpg

Might actually have a good flat spot at the rear, sometimes hard to tell from a photo. I believe that is a metal ring rather than solid but cap, so should be lighter than they look.


----------



## foody518

As well as the grind


----------



## rick alan

Especially the grind, right now all I have on that is the word of a distributor.  Of course I really should have made this point in my first comment


----------

