# Culinary School Grad



## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

I just hired a young person who graduated from a 2 year culinary program at a well known culinary school. Her focus was baking and her portfolio looked great. 

Her first task was to frost a 6 inch 4 layer cake which would later be decorated with fresh flowers. She did a great job. The next day, she was to frost another cake which she did very poorly- dragging the crumbs through the frosting and making a huge mess. I had to scrape it all off and start over. Today she was supposed to make a blueberry pie by cooking the berries with cornstarch for a few minutes. She was totally lost although she read the recipe. She had never used cornstarch as a thickener before and had to be directed throughout the process. She can't multiply a recipe and had no earthly idea what approx 4 ounces of butter would look like.

My question to you is this: what should I expect a graduate of culinary school to know? I suspect that if I asked her to make puff pastry from scratch, she'd do fine, but the simple stuff is lost on her. What's up with this? Any thoughts?


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

This is something that burns my biscuits. 
I teach in a little known community college culinary department, it kills me to see people spend $$$ for an education that they have no base for. -does that make sense?
First off, you need to teach EVERYTHING not just the sexy sugar work or artisan breads.
I love that I get to show and tell every day. We teach TECHNIQUE, the technique will set you free. 
From using an oven, washing the floors, what flour to use for what reason, how to crack an egg, peel a carrot, use a scale~digital, bakers beam,~ measure liquids. 
I know, it's not cutting edge but most students coming into culinary school have never cooked outside the home.


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## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

She talks about having to iron her aprons, iron pleats in her chef's jacket, and how they wanted the apron tied. Seems like a waste of $$ to me when they could have told her that 4 cups = a quart.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

while uniform is important, and i do hold students accountable, it's not the only thing. 
following direction, working within a group as leader or follower, problem solving, curiosity....


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

I feel for you and for her....it must suck interviewing a confident student who seemed qualified only to have her not meet your needs. But believe me, she is falling hard right now realizing everything that she doesn't know. 

All cooking schools are great for giving controlled exposure to techniques and kitchen equipment. This builds confidence.

But I learned that there are a LOT of drawbacks to cooking school too.

1) schools do not allow for repetition, and the one chance you get at making something is usually ideal circumstances. You make a hollandaise once, and that's it! You don't learn how to do it over different types of heat sources....you don't learn what to do when it breaks....you don't learn to do it at kitchen speed...you don't learn the simple way of doing it (i.e. you learn a method that is fancy and more complex than most restaurants would use)...you don't learn many (if any) of the signs to look for to make sure you are on the right track. I could make hollandaise at home, no problem....but for the life of me, I could not make it consistently on a french top in a prof. kitchen with no double boiler. 

She probably did the first cake just fine because for whatever reason, it was the perfect set of circumstances for her....but the next cake with the crumb problem, maybe the cake was drier, or the icing thicker...and she probably never had the chance to learn how to "see" these issues nor how to compensate for them, nor how to prevent them. She probably didn't even realize that she was doing it wrong until it as pointed out to her. 

2) Students really are at the mercy of the teachers they get. My basic cookery teacher couldn't make a hollandaise herself....she tried and it failed. So she had us watch a demo by another chef and then never gave us the chance to make it ourselves......since I "knew" how to make it at home, I felt fine in bypassing the sauce. But WOW did this lack of knowledge show through once I was on the line. 

And for that...I wonder if your new hire even ever received exposure to thickening using corn starch. To you, it is the simplest thing in the world to do, but I would not be surprised if her instructor taught them "If you need to thicken something....do it THIS way! THIS way is the best way....if you do it like me, you won't need to know any other way." (I have seen this before too.) And, she probably only thickened fruit a few times in total....each time she probably did it the exact same way as the instructor had taught them.

3) As for multiplying the recipes....wow....that is really bad unless, of course, they received all their recipes pre-multiplied for them. That was the one thing we DID receive repetition on! We were to type up recipes cards each week and adjust the recipes for the number of servings needed (actually, I think I did this on my own because I wanted to learn how to do it.) Either way, I am certain that she should have at least learned that much. So don't know what to tell you there.

I know the chef I externed under for a short time had a controlled-contempt for cooking schools for these reasons above (and more.) 

But from the student point of view "How do I get into a kitchen without experience?" Cooking schools make you think you have experience....and let's be a little honest here....would you have hired her if she came to you with no experience but said she really wanted to learn how to bake?

Sadly, I do think that both sides get the short end of the stick on this one. She's led to believe she is ready for the big time....you know she is just starting out, but you didn't realize that YOU would be responsible for re-training her from square-one. 

Man, I don't know if I really added anything to this discussion other than to say I am sorry for what you are going through. Good luck to you both!


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

lentil;276858 said:


> I just hired a young person who graduated from a 2 year culinary program at a well known culinary school. Her focus was baking and her portfolio looked great.
> 
> Her first task was to frost a 6 inch 4 layer cake which would later be decorated with fresh flowers. She did a great job. The next day, she was to frost another cake which she did very poorly- dragging the crumbs through the frosting and making a huge mess. I had to scrape it all off and start over. Today she was supposed to make a blueberry pie by cooking the berries with cornstarch for a few minutes. She was totally lost although she read the recipe. She had never used cornstarch as a thickener before and had to be directed throughout the process. She can't multiply a recipe and had no earthly idea what approx 4 ounces of butter would look like.
> 
> ...


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## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

Thanks, all of you. I guess I did expect a lot more than I got from her, but I shouldn't have assumed a thing when I hired her. I was really excited to hire someone who could decorate a cake and make professional looking baked goods I could sell to other restaurants. That's not going to happen with this one, I'm afraid. I just don't have the time to get her there. It must be the nature of the curriculum in culinary school to have to touch on something and move along.

We had a discussion this morning after she ruined a half sheet chocolate cake...forgot the baking soda... I told her that every time she starts a recipe, I want to see all the ingredients on one side of the table. As she uses each one, I want to see it on the other side. The kitchen is full of distractions and it's easy for anyone to forget where they are in a recipe. We also talked about just how much she (or anyone coming out of any school) doesn't know. It takes real world experience to round out the education and after she makes that damned chocolate cake about 500 times, she'll be able to do it in her sleep. In all honesty, the baker I've had for 2 years still screws up. It's so frustrating to see $$ go out the window though.

We're a busy little cafe and everyone has to jump in where needed. Ideally, the baker is on her own, but sometimes distractions can't be helped.


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## mikeb (Jun 29, 2004)

Odds are she'd screw up the puff pastry as well... You really can't expect anything out of a culinary school grad. 

Last pastry job I had I had to supervise several pastry school grads - they were so clueless I'd give them busywork just so they didn't have time to screw anything up. Every once in awhile I'd walk them through something, or maybe let them do a few things with supervision. The fact of the matter is, culinary school is more or less a scam to separate people from their money - if you want to learn, go work for a Michelin starred chef for awhile (or a good, professional pastry chef)... 

I've actually known a few chefs who absolutely refused to hire a culinary school grad - if job-seekers listed a culinary school on their CV it was promptly thrown away... 

Not to mention, doing pastries simply isn't for everyone. You need to be very organized, borderline obsessive about details, understand food chemistry, have basic math skills (surprising how many cooks fail here) and be able to multitask...


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

Love the responses....I ditto what everyone said. Every culinary school grad I have hired or worked with was a miserable failure, sorry to say. I was surprised and disappointed when I came to figure out that I couldn't count on them like I thought I would be able to. 

When I came out of culinary school, my chefs made it very plain that school was just a way to get your foot in the door. The REAL education started once you got a job. My attitude was when I got in the work world that I would be licking dishes for a while, and I did. I still had to work myself up the ladder, and I was driven to learn, even when school ended. I watched my bosses closely and did what I was told. I learned that "yes, Chef" were the only words they wanted to hear. I guess that's how I survived it all. As a culinary school grad myself, it's hard for me to believe how pathetic most of the grads are now these days. It's like they have a sense of entitlement, false confidence, and no drive to learn or WORK hard once they're in your kitchen.:crazy:


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

This is a great thread. I am going to take this info and make good use of it.


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## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

*from chefpeon-it's hard for me to believe how pathetic most of the grads are now these days. It's like they have a sense of entitlement, false confidence, and no drive to learn or WORK hard once they're in your kitchen.*

I don't think this goes just for culinary grads. Just look at our own children....well, not mine, but.... Many of them have a sense of entitlement and the false confidence that comes from parents telling them what a wonderful job they've done every time they poop. Just the other day, one of my staff was complaining that her kid's school finally has an advanced math class for the higher achievers, and some dope of a mom fought to have her daughter included "because she wanted to" even though the poor girl is going to be so out of her league. For what purpose? Just so the stupid mom can say that her little princess is in the _advanced math class?

My friend teaches poli sci at the university. She has parents call her to tell her that she didn't give their kid the grade they deserved. She has had the little charmers tell her that "my dad PAID for my education and if you don't give me a good grade, he is going to have your job". Really? That little sh*t would be out of my class so fast- daddy or no daddy.

My son once told me (he's now 17) that he knows when he's done a good job and when he hasn't and thought adults were either stupid or dishonest when they gave him false praise.

BTW, after my post yesterday about the grad, she tried another cake AND FORGOT TO DOUBLE THE COCOA when she had doubled everything else. I told her to clean up and go home.

I don't know if I'd said that her second screw up was the FOURTH time the cake was made wrong. 2 by her and 2 by my usual baker who didn't put the right amount of batter in the 12x18 cake pans- you'd think she'd never done this before or that maybe 1/2 inch layers would be especially attractive because a 2 layer birthday cake that's 2 inches tall is always a good thing. :crazy:Oddly enough, I had the least experienced girl make it with my help, and it is wonderful! Now I have to go in on my day off to frost the hated cake to take to my friend's 50th b'day party. If I was starving, I wouldn't have a piece of that damned cake! I will, however, have a big margarita.:beer:_


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Get rid of the other 2 and make the girl with little experience the assistant baker under your tutolage. Give her praise and maybe a raise, you will be better off. Just because a kid spends $20,000.00 a year to go to CIA, does not mean zilch.


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

I have to HIGHLY AGREE with chefpeon's comment.....schooling was a way to get your foot in the door.

Prior to taking classes, I received absolutely zero interviews. AFTER taking some classes, I finally started getting call backs (even though I really hadn't gained any dramatically new knowledge.) I hadn't even finished a full year yet. But it was just enough actual knowledge to make my resume look readable, I guess.

But it was the brief externship where I learned just what was needed in the kitchen, and learned more accurately where my speed and skills were. Because of that experience, I have also been able to turn down a few jobs because I knew that I would be out of my league and slowing the line down. Can I make paninis and crepes? Yes! Can I make hundreds of them for a high volume bistro serving a large to-go clientele in a business district of a large city? Not yet!

It was a little sad though, because I would have loved to receive training for it, but they were not in a position to offer training--yet, they kept trying to get me to accept the position....weird. Anyways, I knew that I would not be a good fit for the job or their needs. If I have interviewed straight out of my culinary classes, I would have thought, "Sure....I can soooooo do this job, no problem! Panini press? Yeah I have used one before....Turn out 12 ingredient paninis every 30-45 seconds? Not a problem." 

Even with just a little real world experience, I feel like I have learned a ton about myself and real world duties. And sadly, I wouldn't have gotten that much without some classes on my resume. The double-bind, right?

Continued luck with your bakery!


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## rat (Mar 2, 2006)

The last CIA grad I had was a big disappointment, the end of the week on a late Saturday service it was time to clean the station and pack it up for the night. I got done scrubbing the floor and asked her to mop up the rest. Keep in mind I am the pastry chef and I am scrubbing the floor myself, the yucky part. All I asked was for her to grab a mop and get the rest of the water up. She looked at me and said she did not spend x amount of dollars to mop floor, she was a chef not a dishwasher. I fired her the next day after consulting with the exec chef, he was just as floored. It is the sense of entitlement that gets me, no one wants to put in the time anymore.
She could make pretty pulled sugar flowers though.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

Wow. I mean just, wow.


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## novi (Aug 31, 2009)

I am a current culinary student and I am absolutly floored to hear some of the comments about Culinary Grad students. I think that these students just kind of fell through the crakes. The person that couldn't make hollandaise sauce is amazing. My first quarter you couldn't pass unless you could make it, without breaking it, with in a small time frame. In the kitchen we mop everyday and are reminded constantly that this will be a part of the rest of our lives. I do however agree that this has alot to do with the schools them selves. All students are required to take a mandatory basic pastry class and it was very hard to deal with the people that were just there to get through and haveing to work with them was almost impossible, since Pastry is my field of study. It is very hard for people like me that work very hard and truely love this profession when there are so many others out there that just don't care. I see alot of 18 year olds comeing into the school because their parents say they have to go to college, so they figure culinary is an easy degree. It makes it hard for anyone with a true passion.


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## reh-pastrychef (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm one of the lucky ones. My Dad and Mom Bought there first bakery when I was 3( 41 years ago). They are from Switzerland and I can say I learned from the best, and still learning. Dad at 80 loves the pastry. My point is that what they learn in school is nothing like the work place. I've be disappointed with almost everyone that's applied straight from come out of a culinary school. It's a tough call


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## benrias (May 2, 2003)

Wow Novi....I hope you weren't referring to my comment re not being able to make the sauce "for the life of me." That was more of a tongue in cheek comment regarding the relative ease of making something using school methods (or in my case home methods) versus doing it the way the chef wants it done. But the reality is, there is the school way and cook book way of doing things....then there is the way your chef wants it. If a right handed pitcher has an ERA of 1.00, there is no way in kelp that he will have an ERA of 1.00 if he switches to left handed pitching. Oh he can get to a 1.00 eventually, but it won't count until he is up against live batters.  

I admit I had problems with making the sauce directly on a french top....when would I ever have had the previous opportunity to make the sauce on one? Never....who has a french top at home? But I worked my butt off to reproduce the sauce as my chef wanted it--school version be darned! And I am proud of rectifying my lack of skills. 

School methods are great if you are lucky enough to find a chef who does things the exact way you were taught and your circumstances are ideal. But chances are that there are none out there. I still remember getting looked at by my sous as if I had lobsters coming out of my ears when, upon being asked to chop parsley, I asked "Squeeze the juice out or no?" Yup....great story. But my basic cookery chef taught us to ALWAYS squeeze the juice out of parsley. Yeah.....my sous just stopped, thought, and respectfully said, "Uh, no." And yet, OF COURSE I had to ask.....I wanted to do things their way. I just never thought that my innocent question would be SO FOREIGN in a live kitchen. School screws with your head and methods. 

But again...I stand by my comments....without school, I would not have gotten my foot in the door. And yes, I was one of those serious ones like you.


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## novi (Aug 31, 2009)

Wow Novi....I hope you weren't referring to my comment re not being able to make the sauce "for the life of me." That was more of a tongue in cheek comment 


Oh I in no way ment it that way. I just used it as a reference concidering the many things being said about the students. I completely agree with everything you said. Even by just seeing many of these same circumstances in the class room. I see so many people slip through the system with out even the basic knowledge needed in the indusrty. I feel that a big part of that is the student themselves. If they don't care you can't make them and the Chef's can only do so much. I do believe that there should be stricker rules to being excepted into culinary schools, money should not be the only guidline. The classrooms are filling so fast and so many people are able to slide through undetected.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I still chuckle about the culinary grad we hired that scaled every ingredient perfectly down to the exact 1 tbsp of salt.

I am led to believe that in the past, alot of schools required prior experience before enrolling. All it took me to get accepted was an answer to one question. "Are you sure that you want to cook? I mean youre not like ummm gonna wanna be a doctor or lawyer or something once I let you in?"

Also, I was disappointed in the lack of enforcement of rules. One student actually painted his house while wearing check pants. He showed up the next day with a big patch of blue behind his leg, the chef commented and asked him to wear a clean pair tomorrow. He didn't, and was never called out or disciplined. The blue patch became his "style" and he wore them to pretty much every class with no trouble.

When learning how to make something, we only touched over it once. I am a fan of learning by repitition. On the day for learning hollandaise, I kept breaking mine, got a C for the day, and we moved on. I never saw hollaindaise again until I got a job and had to make it pretty much for every shift.

Theres alot of inherent flaws that I feel are part of the "get their money, get them in, get them out" mentality of schools. They will say anything just to get that 45k


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

That's exactly it. Usually there are no previous courses or experience you must have to get into culinary school. You just have to have the money. Or not have the money and get sucked into a loan that's nearly impossible to pay back on a cook's wages!


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Again as I have said many times, "It is not the school. it's the person who is attending it"'

They all teach how to do it about the same way.(Basics) and same ingredients. Its how YOU pay attention and absorb the info, how YOU apply it, and how much further YOU want to go with it.


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## mikeb (Jun 29, 2004)

For every decent cook that went to culinary school, there's a decent cook that didn't. You're right, it is the person. However culinary school doesn't seem to matter *at all*. A good cook will succeed with or without school.


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

A not-so-brilliant culinary student chiming in.

I kinda agreed; culinary school isn't -the- only one gate towards culinary success, ****, it probably isn't a good one, judged from most of people experiences' here -and- mine.

But aren't them the same as almost every other job? Every other job would be the same, I believe, saying that learning straight to the workplace is the better part of learning. Once you'll get into the field, your previously-gained knowledge will soon be disproved, warnings broken and boundaries passed. And vice versa. 

But I wonder if culinary school is a waste of money altogether... I mean, it's a good place to -learn-. What matters is the will to learn, of course. What matters is each cook's personal goal and determination, yes, but aren't school giving that place to learn?

And OTOH, a huge gap but, would the workplace itself accept people who only has passion and eagerness to learn on their side?


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Take a look at: 6 Things Culinary School Won't Teach You - Chef's Blade, it might "open some eyes"!


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

ooh, it's an interesting article and yes, a good reality check xD

I've seen similar article, about what Celebrity chef didn't / wouldn't tell you. I think it must already been posted here, somewhere... 10 Things Celebrity Chefs Won't Tell You

@Edit : but I digress.

Concerning the initial thread, I'm pretty sure it's just another useful lesson for the hopeful pastry chef and I'm glad the TC had been spared from losses. >_>;


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Thing is, cooking is a very hands on job and one that is also very intuitive... as are many of the other arts/crafts. You can start work at a restaurant knowing nothing and peel some carrots, but to step straight into an engineering firm or a software development studio is a much different matter.


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## trifoilum (Sep 2, 2009)

I agreed with you completely. It still sounds pretty risky and somewhat scarier though, the way I imagine it : say, someone with eagerness to learn and -did- learn but didn't have the backing up of a basic cookery skill.

I imagined an angry Gordon Ramsay. >_>;

Of course, it's not the case most of the time, and there are various sources...
hmm. In the end the fault is at the person themselves and their unwillingness to learn from workplace, the way I see it.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes and No.....

Look, it is the school's mandate to teach, and it is the workplace's mandate to make money. Never foreget that.

There are restaurants that, say... will roast a prime rib rare, and then slice portions off, toss them in a pie plate with a little jus, and fire it off to the desired doneness. Not exactly by the book, but it is profitable, and it works. (sorta) Or instructing staff that "sauteing" actually means to toss watery aenemic pasta in tinned pasta sauce in a saute pan, or making "omelettes" on the flat-top, or.....

A school might teach about cooking, but forget to teach about planning ahead, economy of movement, or such mundane, everyday things such as cleaning a flat top--safely, cleaning out a fryer, or how exactly to operate a dishpit.

If you rely on one variety (school or the workplace) too much, you never get the proper balance. Each is important. 

Hope this helps


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## jessiquina (Nov 4, 2005)

i just have to get this out. one of my assistants drives me nuts. the worst thing that happened was when she was using a machine to grate carrots for carrot cake. the head chef saw her somehow get metal shavings in the cake and told her to start over.... of course i was confident that she could make carrot cake, so i wasnt babysitting her. when the chef told me, and when i found out that she DIDNT remake the cake, and the metal shavings were in the cake baking... i knew there was no future for her in this industry. 
and she has the nerve to talk bad about me on her facebook page, where anyone can read it. these fresh culinarians think they are masters at their craft, and its really sad when they dont even know how to rewarm some buttercream so its suitable to frost a cake. :crazy:


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

One of my short lived assistants who graduated from Cordon Bleu, used to sip tea and watch her cream whip. She had no idea that perhaps she could be doing other things while her cream was whipping. I find that many grads have no idea about pacing when it comes to the real world of baking.


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## pchefjo (Apr 5, 2009)

A couple of years ago I was working in a small custom cake shop. A woman called in early Dec. looking for a job in the field since she was going to enroll in culinary school for the Jan semester, she wants to be a pastry chef. I didn't have an opening but had a few minutes to talk with her about the prospect of going to school and what she wanted to do.

I asked her to tell me a little bit about herself, the conversation went something like this.

Me - "why do you want to go to culinary school for pastry?"

Her - "to increase my earning potential, I have been divorced for 6 months and have 3 children under the age of 10"

Me - "what do you do/earn now"

Her - "I'm a paralegal for JC Penney. (stammering about if she should tell me her salary)"

Me - "I don't really care what you make, I don't know you, I just want an idea - are you in the 30's?"

Her - "yes. The admin office also said they have job placement when I graduate."

Me - "unless you are top in you class and extremely good you'll earn about 8-10$ an hour to start. You will most likely work in a hotel, club or restaurant. Most likely you will work nights and absolutely on weekends and of course holidays. Corporate positions are few and far between."

Her - "really?"

Me - "yes. But I don't want you to believe me! Before you sign on the dotted line and be committed to 45K for culinary school, I think you should call come chefs in the area who are NOT working for the school. Ask them for 5-10 minutes of their time to speak with them about your situation. The school wants you to enroll and get your 45K, they can't get a job for you if one doesn't exist."

Her - "thank you for your time"


I never heard from her again and often wondered what she ended up doing. I couldn't imagine going back to school full time with 3 children and divorced!! Especially into this industry where it could take a while to "increase my earning potential"

I don't know for sure, but it seems like the admin office tells them they could earn 50-75k a year as a chef and not tell them how long and rugged the road to get there is.


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## jtobin625 (Dec 16, 2008)

In working for culinary schools in admissions for about 5 years, I can tell you that SOME schools will absolutely omit the actual "earning potential" of a chef. They typically leave out the "Expect to make $8-12 as a cook or pastry ***'t and you need to work anywhere from 3-10 years after graduating to move into any type of mgmt position"

Dishonor before death.


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## culinarydiva (Jul 26, 2010)

ugh


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## culinarydiva (Jul 26, 2010)

ugh


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

I was toying with the idea of going to culinary school and I still may but what turned me off of one school was the assertion by the  dean of the school that if I spend 6K on his course he could get me a job in any kitchen in Canada as a line cook.  Uhm... I had zero culinary training when I started out.. I was a self taught home cook and made the transition into the pro world... so why do I need his course to get the job I currently held??  It was a private career college so I was already wary of their program and when I went to that info session the dean presented himself to be more of a salesman than an educator.  When I do decide to take classes I would like to work under an educator rather than a salesman. 

The advertising lines are decieving... the local private school says in their tag line "become a qualified chef in less than three months"....yeah right... another reason why I will not take classes there....


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## rat (Mar 2, 2006)

I have another one coming in wed. She looks promising, we'll see. Despite the some what crazy look in her eye. I find the slightly psycho people do the best production.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2010)

OK, I completely agree with ED BUCHANAN... its the person, not the school. My school prepared me to work in a crazy kitchen, so my first job in a real kitchen was just another day for me... just slower. However, there are many who came from my school and are completely lost. So, good school or not, it is up to the individual to get all they can out of it.

Culinary students have more experience than someone who has never cooked in a professional kitchen before, but their personal skill level will vary. Some you have to walk by the hand and others you can toss into the fire. Some should find a new career. Just don't discount someone because they only have Culinary School experience... you don't know how hard it was for me to get my foot in the door.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

FWIW, see: http://www.mcf-usa.com/chefs/#usa


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## rat (Mar 2, 2006)

Well two interveiws and tryouts this week, one was a machine and blazed through her tests a J&W grad. Her only problem was one of her tests was to make 6 portions of any kind of dessert, something seasonal and appropriate for our menu, kind of like Iron chef, I was somewhat disappointed in her product but that part of the trail was a suprise. She has great potential, too bad she only wants part time. The second one today took 1.5 hours to make a run of cake batter and a run of icing, we never got to the make anything part of the interview. It was like being stuck behind a person going 45 in a 55 zone and not being able to pass. We might bring her into the bread production but it does not look likely. 2 different culinary school grads 2 totally different results. go figure.


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## iplaywithfire (Jul 5, 2010)

rat said:


> Well two interveiws and tryouts this week, one was a machine and blazed through her tests a J&W grad. Her only problem was one of her tests was to make 6 portions of any kind of dessert, something seasonal and appropriate for our menu, kind of like Iron chef, I was somewhat disappointed in her product but that part of the trail was a suprise. She has great potential, too bad she only wants part time. The second one today took 1.5 hours to make a run of cake batter and a run of icing, we never got to the make anything part of the interview. It was like being stuck behind a person going 45 in a 55 zone and not being able to pass. We might bring her into the bread production but it does not look likely. 2 different culinary school grads 2 totally different results. go figure.


I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir by replying directly to your comment, but I thought you struck on something that I haven't seen talked about much in these threads, so here goes.

Schooling only offers the opportunities to learn. The higher quality the program (staff, hands-on exp, theory, et al), the better the opportunity to learn. Not every student who graduates from a program (even if it's one of the best programs) will have been able to take full advantage of every opportunity the student had while attending. Whether it be a simple matter of "chemistry", clicking in with the set-up, or a matter of retention/application, individual results may vary /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif A diploma from a certain program looks great on a resume, and can open more doors, but ultimately it comes down to the performance, passion, and will of the individual, and not their schooling. I'm glad you're using stages, and I'm sure you are too.

P.S. Couldn't agree more with your previous comment about nut cases. Only those who are willing to give it their all do very well in professional kitchens, and giving it all usually means ones sanity is the first thing to go. Besides, you can only argue with the confit so many times before it gets the best of you.


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

> FWIW, see: http://www.mcf-usa.com/chefs/#usa


Yes, PeteMcCracken, I think that's the only way. These chefs take educating the next generation _*very*_ seriously, they know they are the keepers of a way. It is a shame that this "program" does not have more purchase in America; fine dining would be more affordable and there would be more good cooks. Why pay thousands to a school when it is possible to get payed to work and live in a M.O.F's brigade? Sigh... There are many other reasons why this is the way but I can't find the words.


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## bekazu (Sep 22, 2009)

I have a pastry certificate from le Cordon Bleu.  I went to school with 10 years experience in savory because I was unable to find someone willing to give me a chance at baking.  I happily pay my loan payments every month since it was a great stepping stone to my current job.

I love this thread!  It details my struggles the past 2 years entirely too well.

I had an experienced non-grad professional who was amazing to work with & I don't think I appreciated him enough.  When he passed away I hired 2 girls within weeks of each other, one a le cordon bleu grad the other with 6 yrs industry experience, both complete flops.  

The grad had that sense of entitlement that I don't understand since 3 of our 5 instructors were the same.  She is a pantry cook now. 

The girl whom past employers spoke glowingly of can't tell when cakes are cooked, refuses to leave anything in the oven long enough for it to turn even a little golden brown and bursts into tears when things heat up a little.  Plus when things go wrong she runs to the exec chef and tells him that her training is lacking and I've "never said a word about....."   He is frustrated, I'm frustrated and the twit thinks she needs a raise.  I kept track one month and I trashed more than $170 worth of product.  When I explained that so long as half her work was going into the trash she would get no raise she cried.  There is no place for tears in the professional kitchen >:-{   I started documenting that very day.

Whew, enough ranting! 

My philosophy from my days on the hot line remains with me.  Shut up and let your work do the talking.  I finally found someone else who lives it, the new girl is amazing, self taught and can crank out prep faster than any non-meth addict should be able to.


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## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

It's been a year and my culinary school grad moved on to a manager's position in a big hotel.  She's doing well, and I can honestly say that I am happy for her. 

Someone way up in the posts suggested that I get rid of both of the pastry people and use the young girl who steps in and does a great job. Well since last summer, this girl is the second baker, and I often rely on her when I need something different since asking the primary baker to change her routine makes for a stressful day....for both of us.  The young girl did a 6 inch decorated cutting cake and 100 cupcakes for a wedding we had on Saturday.  While she was setting up the cake table, a guest asked if she had done the cake.  You have never seen a more proud young woman!  It was as if the guest had given her million dollars!

I am giving her a raise tomorrow.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Lentil, I'm glad to see your second baker is doing so well.  She is the right person for the job and your former employee has found something that better suits her.

I have to agree with something that's been mentioned all through this thread and it's the sense of entitlement that most young people seem to have today.  I'm not sure where that comes from but I think it's the parents.  They're afraid (or can't be bothered, don't have the time, etc) to stand up to their kids and teach them to respect others and to work for what they have.  I can tell you that my kids know the value of a dollar and know that they have to work for everything in this world.  They're both getting close to college age now and they know that they are going to have to fund their education.  We will help them in that they can live at home rent free as long as they are in school and we'll feed them etc.. but the cost of school itself is their responsibility.  I'm sure I sound like a hard a** but I want them to think about the choices they make and not waste their time and money doing something they have no interest in.


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## rat (Mar 2, 2006)

I save the tears in a little jar. They have qualities similar to the "tears of gypsies".



bekazu said:


> I have a pastry certificate from le Cordon Bleu. I went to school with 10 years experience in savory because I was unable to find someone willing to give me a chance at baking. I happily pay my loan payments every month since it was a great stepping stone to my current job.
> 
> I love this thread! It details my struggles the past 2 years entirely too well.
> 
> ...


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## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

leeniek said:


> Lentil, I'm glad to see your second baker is doing so well. She is the right person for the job and your former employee has found something that better suits her.
> 
> I have to agree with something that's been mentioned all through this thread and it's the sense of entitlement that most young people seem to have today. I'm not sure where that comes from but I think it's the parents. They're afraid (or can't be bothered, don't have the time, etc) to stand up to their kids and teach them to respect others and to work for what they have. I can tell you that my kids know the value of a dollar and know that they have to work for everything in this world. They're both getting close to college age now and they know that they are going to have to fund their education. We will help them in that they can live at home rent free as long as they are in school and we'll feed them etc.. but the cost of school itself is their responsibility. I'm sure I sound like a hard a** but I want them to think about the choices they make and not waste their time and money doing something they have no interest in.


Sounds like we're on the same page! I agree 100% with the entitlement being the parents' fault. I have a friend who owns a restaruant and he was telling me that he sent a kid home one day for not doing his job- not fired him, but sent him home for the day. That afternoon the mother came in and gave my friend h*ll for being hard on her little darling. My friend is such a softie! When I worked for him, I used to tell the kids when he was mad because he never raised his voice.

My kids also are responsible for much of their education. I have one who's been out of nursing school for 4 years and has taken full responsibility for her student loans and a sophomore in college who has worked 50+ hours a week since school got out in May. He's a hard worker and has contributed a considerable amount to his tuition. We wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want to be paying off student loans when I'm in my 60's!

BTW, I didn't give her a raise today, but told her I'm paying so she can take a series of cake decorating classes. She is thrilled!


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## phillipo (Jul 5, 2010)

*/img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif I can sooo relate as i insist on pace and multi tasking,yet i have a dipstick apprentice whom insists on hand whipping cream while 3 mixers remain idle cos "it takes the same time"......... oh dear,he just dont get it*

*I too had a simular application for an apprentice cook from a guy in his 30s who worked for years in computers,earning way more $ than me-who claimed he didnt care about the money cos his wife got $400. an hour as a lawyer and he just wanted to do cooking cos he liked it-like sooo many others whom recently watched the tv series of "master chef".*

*I didnt hire him as i predicted he wouldnt last when he had no idea of the low pay,the long hours,the preasure cooker enviroment etc........*

*I find too that here in Australia,the private colleges tell "porky pies" (falsehoods) about the real world to all the overseas students-just to get them enrolled and get their money.............then industry (we) have to deal with it...................*


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

phillipo said:


> *I find too that here in Australia,the private colleges tell "porky pies" (falsehoods) about the real world to all the overseas students-just to get them enrolled and get their money.............then industry (we) have to deal with it...................*


They do that here in Canada too. Most of the private culinary schools leave out alot of real world details and it isn't until after one enters the real world that it becomes apparent.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

lentil said:


> Sounds like we're on the same page! I agree 100% with the entitlement being the parents' fault. I have a friend who owns a restaruant and he was telling me that he sent a kid home one day for not doing his job- not fired him, but sent him home for the day. That afternoon the mother came in and gave my friend h*ll for being hard on her little darling. My friend is such a softie! When I worked for him, I used to tell the kids when he was mad because he never raised his voice.
> 
> My kids also are responsible for much of their education. I have one who's been out of nursing school for 4 years and has taken full responsibility for her student loans and a sophomore in college who has worked 50+ hours a week since school got out in May. He's a hard worker and has contributed a considerable amount to his tuition. We wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want to be paying off student loans when I'm in my 60's!
> 
> BTW, I didn't give her a raise today, but told her I'm paying so she can take a series of cake decorating classes. She is thrilled!


I agree, Lentil when I'm in my 60s I want to enjoy my life, not have to worry about paying off my kids loans.

I bet your baker is excited! Having the boss pay to help her improve her skills is as good as if not better than a raise in some cases. It shows that you value her and that you are willing to invest some money in her to help her improve.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Folks as a former culinary instructor The student either has it in the hands or doesn't. Tha's bottom line. You can show and teach all you want but they have to have it in them. The inborn ability, the will and desire.


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

Ed Buchanan said:


> Folks as a former culinary instructor The student either has it in the hands or doesn't. Tha's bottom line. You can show and teach all you want but they have to have it in them. The inborn ability, the will and desire.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif In the late 50's and early 60's I taught French, Italians, Polish and Greeks how to cook straight off the boat before they even learned English but, these kids today they get just enough education to make them dangerous. I would rather someone tell me they did not know than to open their mouth and prove it. With the Europeans If I handed them a 10# bag of split peas they knew what I wanted and if they didn't understand something they would wait until I explained it by showing them, these kids today think they know everything./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

About twice a year, I get pastry students  for two week "stages" from two schools, around 8 students per year.  So, in the last 3 years I have had opportunity to work with and observe "fresh" students.

Final analysis?

Everyone is different.   School is NOT a leveler of playing fields 

Some have had prior experience and know their way around the kitchen, Some look at me blankly when I give them a dozen apples, a paring knife and two lined tarts.  Some work sloooooooow but,-as a saving grace, don't screw up and are fairly clean, some manage to spread more ganache on the counter when removing ganache from the robot-coupe than they get into the piping bag.  Some I've hired during peak seasons.  One dude put in 750 grams of salt instead of 75 grams salt into a pie dough recipie--he made it twice before under my very eyes.......


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## oishii (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi! I'm currently a culinary student just focusing on pastries and I have to do an internship pretty soon. I was wondering, what should I expect? Am I going to be thrown in and just given a recipe to do? Or have someone to work with? I know each place will be different, but I just wanted to get a general idea, especially from Professionals! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

QUOTES "" OK Chef I know ,I graduated CIA,""" ''but thus is the way we did it in school"" '' I did not spend all that money there to do this""  ""But my instructor said''You can't do it that way'' Need I say more????    Now welcome to reality and the real world.


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