# bread does not rise in oven



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Well I am new to the site but here goes with a couple of questions. Hope I am in correct forum group and problems not to basic.

When I have a well rised dough, formed as I want double size after knock down and shaping, two issues.

1 if I slash dough it immediately sinks like a pricked ballon and when placed in oven with steam tray does not get a final rise, this was using a french bread dough.

2. Using a multigrain formed as a round, again the slashing did a little falling, when baked was a good loaf but yet again no rise in oven.

I have an old aga and check temp with hanging thermometer.
The whole grain was baked with tray on floor of oven, produced a great under crust and I sprayed loaf with water before bake and sprayed sides of oven for some steam. Just did not get any oven rise on loaf.

The french bread I placed in middle of oven with tray under neath. Just before closing door I poured boiling water in tray and got great steam. The bread was great crust, fallen from my slashes and did not rise. Flavour was great as was crust. I did a cold ferment on dough for 20 hours before warm rise and shaping.

Well there you have it. Probably trying to do things running before I can walk and a can of worms opened....

All comments good and bad fully welcome.....john


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi John,

I'm wondering if you are maybe overproofing your dough. Your yeast feeds on the flour initially and multiplies. As it multiplies it continues to feed on the flour and creates bubbles of carbon dioxide that raise the bread. As the food source depletes, the yeast grows less active. If you leave it too long then there will not be enough food there for the yeast to regrow after knocking it back or slashing.

Another problem could be with the hydration level of your dough. I'd imagine that your french dough is on the wetter side. This takes much more careful handling as the dough is heavier and so is much more prone to having the air knocked out of it.

Use a very sharp knife to slash - you are trying to open up so the bread has room to expand, but not to knock the air below out. Also, go very gently with your dough, particularly wet doughs. CAREFULLY lay it down, and don't slam it in the oven or slam the door etc. Just treat it nicely. 

If you want to post the recipe you used and your methods/times etc. I'd be glad to take a look.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There are a lot of possible flaws in your technique which alone or in combination could cause the lack of oven spring.     

I can't really tell you what you're doing wrong, until I know what you're doing.  It's a lot, but please describe your entire process, with particular attention to how you mix, knead, proof, rest, "punch down," and form your loaves.  You don't have to include recipes if you don't want as the problem is almost certainly with technique; but if it's not too much trouble, go ahead. 

BDL


----------



## colin (Sep 12, 2011)

Ditto the replies above.  It would be good to have the full recipe, and a word on temperatures at different stages.

I get this problem when I overproof in the final rise, and/or when I do the final rise at too high a temperature.  Doing the final rise cold might give you more control.

I usually bake when the loaf meets the poke-it-and-it-stays-poked test, which is generally before a full doubling, especially if I've taken care not to deflate too much during shaping.

I'd suggest getting the oven spring working first, and then working on slashing, which is a harder art.  I've pretty much given up slashing wetter doughs because I can't get consistent results.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Thank you for your replies.

I can see some of my problems already I think.

The first french bread was a Mark Bittman recipe which is...

3 1/2 cups (546 grams) bread flour 2 tsp. salt 1 tsp. instant yeast 1 1/2 cups water (or more)

1. Process flour, salt, and yeast for a few seconds in food processor, using the metal blade. With the machine running, pour most of the water through the feed tube. Process about 30 seconds, or until dough becomes a sticky, shaggy ball. If it doesn't feel sticky, add more water.

2. Turn dough into large bowl, and cover with plastic wrap. Let rise for two to three hours at room temperature.

3. Sprinkle a little flour on the counter, and cut dough into three equal pieces. Shape each into long roll, and place in a lightly floured baguette pan. Cover with a towel, and let rise for another one to two hours. (On a cold day, you'll need the full rising time).

4. About a half-hour before baking, put baking stone in oven, and skillet or pan on lowest shelf. Preheat oven to 450 degrees. When ready to bake, slash loaves with sharp knife and sprinkle lightly with flour. Put about 1/2 cup of ice cubes on pan on lowest shelf of the oven, and quickly put baguette pan on top of baking stone.

5. Spray sides of oven after five minutes and again after ten minutes.

6. Bake 25 to 35 minutes, until crust is golden brown. Cool on a wire rack.

I followed it pretty well on quantities and dough was wet. When first rise I had the covered bowl on top of the aga slow hood and it doubled after 1.5 hours. I don't have the tray so simply formed my baguttes on a flat tray instead. I have a curved lahm and haven't got the technique at all so guess I should steer clear of slashing for awhile!

Sounds like I handled it too much too.

The second attempt was basically the same recipe but I let it do part of its first rise in fridge. Bringing it out after 20 hours and letting it sit on the aga to get going. This time I made two larger baguttes as three longer ones failed miserably. Again did all my rising on the aga. Slashed the final results, floped and again did not rise in oven.

It is winter here and I live in the hills out of Melbourne and its pretty cold. Hence thinking the warmth of the aga a good spot. Maybe too hot?

A basic white and a wholemeal loaf worked well white in tin and the other a hand formed round. All again did not rise in oven.

I have oven at 230c in the middle. Of course I can't turn the temp down quickly just put everything lower in position.

I thought I was killing of the yeast in too high an oven temp.....maybe I am killing it in too high a rise temp too quickly..

Well that rambled on a bit but you did ask for info  

John


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Oh and the flour is good quality bread flour....


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

john g said:


> ...
> 
> 3 1/2 cups (546 grams) bread flour 2 tsp. salt 1 tsp. instant yeast 1 1/2 cups water (or more)
> 
> ...



1.5 C water per 3.5 C flour, that's a really highly hydrated dough.

Shouldn't need to add more water.
Rising requires more than one to two hours.
I prewarm my baking stone for at least an hour prior to inserting the dough into the oven. And my oven is preheated to 500F.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks for that.

Am thinking I am rising too fast in too hot a space. 

The finger poke test would not work as after second rise there is a good crust already formed. Is this right? Or should the surface still be 'doughy'?


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

When dough "doubles" which is a misunderstood term imho, it doubles in volume and not length/width/height or even diameter.  For example when making a boule (assume a perfectly spherical shape), for it to double in volume, it's final radius (or diameter) will measure approx 1.2X the original radius (or diameter).

(EDIT)  1.26 (cubed) = the cubed root of 2.  (EDIT)   And what's the volume of a perfect sphere.....

Depending on hydration the finally proofed dough can be either sticky or dry (EDIT) when it's placed into the oven.  At 50% hydration the surface of my dough is dry thus giving a very sharp ear.  At 60% hydration the ear, once fully baked, blends in with the surface of the loaf more or less:  smooth.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks for that info...its 11.45 pm here now will do a bake tomorrow and take in your feedback.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My previous post has been edited.

Think about making a poolish the night before, around 2100 hrs.  Then the next morning, around 0900 hrs, mix the remaining ingredients into the poolish and within three hours you'll have bread bursting out of the oven.  No need to wait all day long like you're doing for the rise; during the night deep into darkness, when the fairies and elves are totally awake and intermingling,  the poolish that develops will allow the yeast to multiply and the enzymes to produce more sugars thus giving a faster activity during the next morning.  ...And a much better flavor thanks to the extra sugars that developed during the night.

-Winkin', Blinkin' and Nod..................


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

kokopuffs said:


> 1.5 C water per 3.5 C flour, that's a really highly hydrated dough.
> 
> Shouldn't need to add more water.
> Rising requires more than one to two hours.
> I prewarm my baking stone for at least an hour prior to inserting the dough into the oven. And my oven is preheated to 500F.


Sorry to disagree, but 42% is not a highly hydrated dough. In fact it's EXTREMELY low, French doughs are usually in the 60%+ mark. Are you certain that's the correct recipe, it must be awfully difficult to work with. Also, rising may require more than one to two hours in some circumstances, but it will depend on the temperature at which it is kept. I put mine in the window in the sun (yes - we have sun in Scotland!) and it usually takes no more than an hour to rise.

If you are leaving it in a warm place then I seriously suspect that you're over-proofing it and that the yeast has 'eaten' virtually all its food by the time that you put it in the oven. Also, to stop your dough getting a crust, oil it lightly and cover it with OILED cling film (I don't know whether that's called something different where you are, but it's the clear plastic cooking wrap that sticks using (I think) electrostatic). Make sure you oil it or it WILL stick when the dough comes into contact and you'll lose some of the rise when you pull it back off.

Finally (for now!), I doubt you're handling it too much. You don't seem to have any real kneading process there. The kneading process is pretty well essential unless you are leaving it to prove for a VERY long time, think 24 - 48 hours. When you knead the bread you encourage the gluten molecules to form chains which will give the bread structure and elasticity. This will happen naturally given long enough (such as with sourdough breads - a sourdough loaf takes me 2 - 3 days to prove, but bear in mind that the sourdough yeasts are much weaker than cultivated shop-bought yeasts and my house is generally cool), but if you are only waiting 2 - 4 hours you may find that you are not giving it enough time to develop the structure. You can see evidence of this when you knead for 5 - 10 minutes - your dough will start off quite wet and sticky and will cover your hand in sticky dough (I knead with 1 hand at first so I don't get too messy), but as you continue you'll find it 'comes together' and will form a firm, non-sticky dough - until you stop kneading.

Try a very basic recipe as below to start with (I'll work in grams because that's what I'm familiar with, and I'm sure you have scales ):

500g strong bread flour

300g lukewarm water

8g salt

15g fresh yeast

10g veg oil (optional)

Stir the salt into the water (to help it dissipate through the flour more evenly). Put the yeast in a bowl, then add the flour and oil if using. Add the water and stir to combine, but don't worry too much. Tip out and knead until it forms a firm dough, no less than 5 mins, probably closer to 10. Lightly oil the bread and tip into a very large proving bowl (preferably the one you used to mix the ingredients originally, just to save on mess!) and cover with cling film. Leave in a warm place to rise for around an hour, you'll see it considerably increase in size, that's what you're looking for.

Tip it out gently onto a floured surface and form a loaf shape by gently pulling the corners in and folding it until it has something that looks a bit like a belly button, but don't mess around for ages with it. Put that into your loaf tin (I always butter mine, even non-stick ones) with the belly button on the bottom, the top should be smooth and seamless. Alternatively put it on a baking tray if you're going for a bloomer type bread, but it's important that the seam is on the bottom.

Leave (covered in oiled cling film) for about an hour in a warm place to rise again (this is when you would put oven on to preheat if you were using one). Put it carefully in the oven and bake until brown and light. Don't forget to leave it for a while (at least half an hour) on a wire rack to finish cooking and dry out after you take it out.

Have a crack at that, it's a good starting point to build on. Bread-baking is such a nice thing, you'll really enjoy getting into it.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

StuartScholes said:


> Sorry to disagree, but 42% is not a highly hydrated dough. In fact it's EXTREMELY low, French doughs are usually in the 60%+ mark. Are you certain that's the correct recipe, it must be awfully difficult to work with. Also, rising may require more than one to two hours in some circumstances, but it will depend on the temperature at which it is kept. I put mine in the window in the sun (yes - we have sun in Scotland!) and it usually takes no more than an hour to rise.
> ....


post deleted and sorry.


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

From the OP

546g flour
340g water (1 1/2 cups x 8floz/cup x 28.3495g/oz)
340g/546g x100 = 62.4% hydration
From StuartScholes:

500g flour
300g water
300g/500g x 100 = 60% hydration
Hydration, to me, does not seems to be the problem here.

The OP's measurement of flour raises a minor question: 546g for 3 1/2 cup equates to 156g/cup or 5.5oz. Seems a little on the high side for weight/cup, but then again...that has no impact on the hydration calculation because the OP included the *weight* of flour.


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

EDIT: Pete, how does the cup system work then? Is a cup of water different to a cup of flour?


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

A cup of water is always 8 fluid ounces (volume) or 236.588mL(volume) or 8 ounces (weight) or 236.588g (weight)

Flour, on the other hand, does NOT have a direct volume to weight ratio, it not only depends on the way the flour was ground, but also the way it is handled to measure the volume, i.e. scoop and strike, sifted, spooned, etc., as well as the relative humidity and storage conditions.

The safe way to discuss bread baking hydration, and the basis of bakers percentages, is weight, not volume.

As I showed above, the OP listed the *weight* of flour and also the approximate volume. IMHO, NEVER trust a volume calculation for flour!

Depending on the type of flour, the way it is measured, and the humidity, a cup of flour (volume) may weigh as little as 4 ounces (115g) to as much as 7 1/2 ounces (216g).

So, it is readily apparent that volume measurements are very unreliable for flour.

Safest way? Weigh everything!


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

I also third the overproofing.

when you have too much gas developing and the prod test does not come out like when prodding, it stays then its overly gassy and will deflate.

also when you have got a highly moist dough you have to handle carefully.

have you ever considered doing the second (after final shaping) in a basket/ banneton , then proof about half way, put in fridge to retard, bake the next day.

the dough will firm up, you can then turn it out onto a hot baking sheet/ baking stone and bake.

will be easier to slash the dough too and will have more oven spring.

just a thought.

but a 90% dough is high water content...more like the italian ciabattas instead of french which is supposed to be lower moisture....as mentioned above. 

(ten years experience in baking bread and specialized in sourdoughs...)


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Psst, the dough was NOT 90% hydration, closer to 60-65%, look at the OP's recipe.


Soesje said:


> ...
> but a 90% dough is high water content...more like the italian ciabattas instead of french which is supposed to be lower moisture....as mentioned above.
> 
> (ten years experience in baking bread and specialized in sourdoughs...)


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

ah thanks  just came out of busy service  good excuse, innit?


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Yawns, opens eyes and reaches for a coffee...good morning to you all..

I am inspired by your comments and suggestions and have learnt more in this thread about bread than I expected....many thanks.

Now to brass tacks....it seems evident to me that I have been killing off my yeast before it actually hits the oven. Sun in Scotland? I used to work on South Uist so know you must be close to Hadrian's wall  yet I appreciate the lesson on temperature enough to get a rise. 

The suggested recipes WILL be taken up , I'll do one today and report back tonight. I'll try your guide Stuart today and go back to my french on Monday with a poolish.

Sleep well those that are dozing but again many thanks

Later.........


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for your reply Pete, I wasn't aware of that. As I said before, I weigh everything (in grams). I find that the most reliable way for me.

Hope it helps John. I'm a good bit north of Hadrian's Wall, but I know the Uists, one of these days I'll get over there for a visit. Looking forward to seeing your results.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> ...Hydration, to me, does not seems to be the problem here.
> The OP's measurement of flour raises a minor question: 546g for 3 1/2 cup equates to 156g/cup or 5.5oz. Seems a little on the high side for weight/cup, but then again...that has no impact on the hydration calculation because the OP included the *weight* of flour.


Does he 'fluff and scoop' or simply compress the flour into the measuring cup???


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

I have flour in plastic storage bin, 5kg capacity, large spoon and scoop from bin onto scales.

Have dough on first rise now and will post results in a few hours with photo....


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

kokopuffs said:


> Does he 'fluff and scoop' or simply compress the flour into the measuring cup???


That is very unclear!

For me, 3 1/2 cups of bread flour would weigh closer to 447g rather than 546g.

To me, this, measuring flour volumetrically, is probably a very common bread making error for home bakers, at least as common as misunderstanding _doubling in volume_ during the rise.

As I've stated before, flour varies in weight per cup by:

type of flour
humidity (water content of flour)
the way it is measured (fluff & scoop, scoop and strike, sift into measure, sift then measure by scooping, and a host of other techniques)
It is important when discussing hydration percentage to recognize that it is always a weight ratio, not a volume ratio, for precisely the variability of the volume measurement of flour.

If done volumetrically, based on the OP's recipe, the (incorrect) hydration would calculate to around 42%


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Thought of another area of confusion, the OP may be referencing an International cup (250mL) instead of a U.S. Customary cup (236mL). That's almost a 6-7% difference in volume! And where water is concerned, weight as well!

*If* the OP is using 1 1/2 International cups (250mL), the weight of water is 375g, not 340g, therefore, the hydration percentage is actually 375g/546g x 100 = 68.7%, say 69%.

Perhaps the OP can clarify the meaning of the 3 1/2 cups of flour in the recipe as well as the size of the cups used to measure the water?

We sometimes forget that this forum has worldwide members and we do not all use precisely the same volumetric measurements.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

sHello again.
Interesting aspect to volume weight you raise Pete. The recipe is as found on a web search, the cup vs weight was simply noted as given.
I use the weight not the no of cups, I was using the equivalent weight as given without even thinking to check. When measuring the water I weigh it on my scales as well.
Through the discussion thus far it has become very clear to me to appreciate exactly what I am doing rather than maybe mix volume againt weight. Seems to me that weighing is the sensible way to go.
The cup measures I have btw are from England where I originally come from.
I will now go and take today's bread out...a'la Stuarts suggested weights/method..


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Stuart and all who have joined the discussion.
I used the recipe you provided Stuart let the first rise happen away from the top of aga. Quite a different resulting dough than I have been getting before. Obviously I was indeed rush the rise too much. I moulded in a round using your 'belly button' method and let rise again. I have a feeling my second rise was too short as the resulting crumb is very spongy...please tell me your thoughts. 
The oven rise was thrilling for me to see.....
The resulting bread is pictured below....

I am pleased with the result but its only the first...time will improve one hopes

Please provide your thoughts.

I baked for 25 mins turning at 10.
Oven was 240 C and I placed the tray right on the bottom of the oven, giving the best I can get to a stone. The aga of course is one lump of iron 'hot'

I will make up a cold ferment of the original french bread recipe that started this thread tomorrow and use all the offered suggestion in method and technique you have given.

I would like to properly appreciate the weight/volume issues properly as well as hydration.

Sorry but my camera skills are no so good either, just pointed my tablet and clicked.





  








IMG_20130804_175502.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 4, 2013











  








IMG_20130804_171824.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 4, 2013


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

IMG_20130804_174818.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 4, 2013


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

I was hoping the image would be bigger so the cumb could be seen better. Not sure what I've done wrong...oh well


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

One last update for today...the eating is much like slightly sweet cake. I let the first rise take 2 hours in a warmish place. The second rise was 1 hour. I guess I need to get dough rising better. I felt the last rise was insufficient but did not want to over do the yeast again......


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

That looks pretty good from the photo's. When you say that it's spongy, do you mean that it's dense or that it's wet? This is just a REALLY basic recipe to get you started, now you can build on it. You can mess around with hydration levels, proofing times and temperatures, extra ingredients, the list goes on. I tend to make my longer prove as the second one, so I'd give it an hour first and then a generous hour after shaping. That's just my experience though, and I'm sure others would swear by their own particular methods.

To let you know about hydration levels (I wasn't sure if you understood them from your above post):

The water content of a dough vs the flour content (by weight) is the hydration level. So 250g flour and 250g water would be 100% hydration, 250g flour and 125g water would be 50% hydration and so on. A lot of breads are in the 50 - 60% hydration level. I myself haven't had any real success working above 80%. At this wet consistency you cannot knead the bread, you have to allow the glutens to develop naturally and the fold the bread on itself until it comes together. The downside is that you usually need to use flour to stop your stodge from sticking to things, thus lowering the level of hydration. A wet dough will be fragile with lots of large holes in the crumb, as opposed to a robust, drier dough which will be much more uniform.

The main thing to remember with bread is that, although recipes are specific, they are not chemistry. If you have an extra 5g of flour in a 500g loaf, it will not stop it becoming bread. You actually have a lot of leeway if you remember that:

1) salt kills yeast, so don't oversalt or add the salt directly to the yeast

2) yeast needs time to work its magic - it goes like this: first stage - just starting, the yeast is yawning and stretching, ready for a day at work. Second stage - the yeast gets up, gets its breakfast together (spreading through the dough) and sits down to eat. Third stage (blue smartie and coke stage) - the yeast goes mental at how much food it has and balloons. Fourth stage - the yeast is full, there's only dregs left on the table. It lays down, nibbling at a few morsels. You want to bake just before the fourth stage, when the yeast is just getting to the expanding-pants stage! (Hope my little anecdote is amusing and useful!).

If you remember those two rules then you should be fairly set for developing your own bread in the way you like by experimenting.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There reason you're getting that tight, cake-like crumb is that you're collapsing the open structure created during the rise by the way you handle the raw dough. 

90% of your problem is formation.  You lack "touch," don't know how to form a loaf of bread by hand yet, and you're killing the bread's final texture when you try.  In essence, you're trying to run before you've learned how to walk. 

If you want early success, start by baking in pans or at least using some sort of form -- like a banneton -- to shape your loaves.  If you want to try, I'll help you.  If you want to try something even easier and more idiot-proof, go "no-knead," and bake in a covered vessel.  There are people here who will help you with it.  

Yes, there are many other problems with your technique, but they're to be expected.  Lets get some success before delving into the fine points. 

BDL


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Earlier I cited 420 grams of flour.  Sorry for the mistake and I contacted StuartScholes personally.


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

All those darn inconsistencies in cup sizes eh?! Lol.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

By law here in the U.S., the size of a one cup measure can vary as much as 10 or 15% and for that reason alone is why weight is the preferred measurement of bakers.


----------



## colin (Sep 12, 2011)

Hydration aside, I want to second Stuart's remarks on kneading.

You're imposing a huge constraint on your ability to make good bread by avoiding kneading entirely, especially if the only mixing is with a food processor.

I would start either here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/lessons or with one of Peter Reinhart's books. Even though I've been making bread for decades, I've learned a lot in the last year by doing exactly what Reinhart told me to do, step by step.

I understand the attraction of the Mark Bittman recipe, because it holds out the prospect of getting good results with almost no work, but I think to make it successfully, picking up on B de L's point, you already have to know a lot about handling and texture.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Morning to you all

First the bread was indeed very firm rather than a real cake crumb

I take on board all comments made Stuart and I appreciate the recipe was a starting point from you. I fully think my rise times were out of kilta.

Colin, I will put the processor to one side. I don't want to go no knead as that seems to defeat the point of baking to me. I used the processor thinking it would reduce the kneading and it was a recipe for processing.

Koko, whatever the cup size I have learnt from this thread, and your input with others, to weigh Everything.

Thanks BDL for your comments also and yes I would appreciate guidance.

I do have a small banneton but stayed clear of it till I got a few loaves under belt. I know running before walking. Talking of which.....

I did make up a poolish last night.
I have a recipe needing one.
Flour 100%
H2o 65%
Salt 2%
Yeast o.5 %

Poolish was a 30%

Flour 150 g
H2o. 150g
Scant pinch of instat dried yeast

This moring nice smell and surface bubbles

I mixed salt 10g into rest of water 175g broke up poolish.
Mixed in rest of flour 350g with one tsp of instant dried yeast.

Hand mixed and kneaded for 10 mins. Lovely silky dough.
Put in oiled metal. Bowl and covered with cling film.

Currently rising.

This I calculated a bread with 65% hydration.

I also intend to repeat your recipe Stuart.

My wife thinks I'm mad but I know I am....

Oh by the way have ordered books from library too B d'L included.

.......................


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

See, you're getting into the idea now.  Thefreshloaf is a valuable source of information, I too learned a LOT from there (their stuff on sourdoughs is particularly interesting - to me).

Just to note, I don't think (I may be wrong) that any of the other ingredients are generally expressed as percentages. I always work (in my head) with the water quantity as a percentage and the rest as grams. I say this to save you having to calculate out salt and yeast levels etc. Also, when working with yeast the amount to add is not linear - you don't add 30 grams of yeast to a kilo of flour just because you add 15 grams to 500 grams. Confusing I know, but it's because of the way the yeast grows, but you'll come across that in more depth later I'm sure.

Regarding your hydration, you're starting to get the hang of it I think, but unless I misunderstood your recipe I think you may have miscalculated a little. Let me run you through how I understand it:

*Poolish:*

150g flour and water (100% hydration)

*Main dough:*

350g flour and 228g water (65% hydration)

175g poolish (which at 100% hydration means 88g flour and water)

Total in loaf (not taking into account any flour absorbed through the kneading process if you kneaded on flour): 437g flour and 315g water (something like 72% hydration).

Does that make any sense?

Please post pictures, I'd like to see how your bread turns out again, I love the long breads that take several hours or even days to come to fruition - I just find it exciting to keep checking in (I use cling film as I said before) and seeing how things are turning out, there's really nothing like seeing evidence of rising bread dough IMO.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Stuart

Bit confused with hydration, these were my thoughts
;
For a total flour 500g I used total water 325g

Made a 30% poolish which I took as 30% of total flour being 150g with 150g of the water.

When I mixed all together it was the poolish with 350g of flour and 175g of water

Not 175g of poolish.

That gave me 65%, got to get that straight in my mind as hydration is obviously a keystone in the whole process.

My results today......

I usually use two tsp yeast in a loaf but only used one tsp as I thought the poolish would have introduced yeast from its development.

The dough took 3 hours to start kicking in for first rise! After 4 hours I turned out and formed my loaf gently patting the dough into long rectangle,
. I then folded the ends in and over a little. Brought one long side of rectangle to middle and folded the opposite side over to the other edge. Read about this method .

The resulting loaf sat for 40 mins and I kept eye on finger test..dared myself to slash the top and in oven 240c with iron pan on floor which I poured boiling water into before I closed door.

The baked loaf has great crust. Tastes wonderfull from the poolish though is firmer than I wanted. Even so it is soft and eats quite well.

Have decided to play with this recipe for awhile rather than go from one to other each day.

I will try less salt a fraction and increase yeast to 2tsp. What do you think?

One thing to mention. I was surprised that the dough was not as sloppy as I thought it would be, another area to adjust me thinks another time.

Here are the photos

Will start a poolish tonight.

Cheers and thanks again. I am so pleased to have found this site, my thinking towards baking bread has already been hightened and so much to learn.

........





  








IMG_20130805_173043.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 5, 2013











  








IMG_20130805_172834.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 5, 2013


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

Looks pretty good. You're right about the hydration then, I misunderstood your previous recipe post. I think this is a good recipe to work on if you're happy with the taste - that's the important thing, now you can work on perfecting the texture.

Your salt level will be dictated by how salty you want the bread. If it was too salty then reduce it and vice versa. Regarding increasing the yeast, I'd usually use 15g yeast for a 500g loaf, so your method seems on the low side, maybe that's why your rise is taking longer than mine typically would. Not an issue though, you work out how you want to get your results for yourself.

If I recall, you are using an Aga, which I assume give you less control over heat (never cooked with one myself). I usually put my oven to max (around 230) for at least half an hour before putting in, placing a ceramic roasting dish in the bottom. Then I add boiling water to this a couple of minutes before putting the loaf in. After cooking for a short time, maybe as short as 5 minutes sometimes, I reduce the oven temperature to around 180 instead and continue the cooking. This stops the crust from drying too much and becoming too thick. If you find your crust is too hard, you can wrap your loaf in a damp (not wet) tea towel, bake for a few minutes and remove from the oven, leaving to stand. This should soften it a little.

Your slashes came out pretty good.  It looks nice, certainly better than my first loaves. I remember taking them out of the oven and they were HEAVY. You could nearly build a house with them! Lol.


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

As far as the aga is concerned you are right that I don't have much control over temp. I have temp in middle at 230/240c by my hang in thermometer. One thing I can do ( not tried yet ) is place the cold aga baking sheet in top slots. The sheet is full width of oven and can be used to deflect heat from top surface of oven. Aga baking is quite different than straight or fan forced.

The crust is something I am looking for as its the crusty french/italian breads I would like to get to as we love that type of bread.

At least I am now getting the oven rise I could not achieve.

I'll try some variations with recipe .....


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

That's it, you're getting the mindset now. Keep us posted. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Its only been a week since I started this thread. Thanks to you I have learnt an enormous amount. I have also put my head into many books from the library, used 6 kg of flour and driven my wife crazy.

I have however today achied a bread worth all the effort. I have taught myself the stretch and fold aswell as forming good dough balls.

Anyway for what its worth here are my bakers notes explaing what I did, comments greatly appreciated.

........

Poolish
150 g flour
150 g water
1/4 tsp instant dried yeast

Mix well, cover with cling film and stand on bench 12 hours

Bread
All of poolish
185 g water
350 g flour
15 g instant dried yeast
Mix and bring to form combined mass
Autolyse for 15 minutes covered in cling film

Add 8 g salt well distributed and form dough
Knead for 10 minutes with minimal flour on bench surface
Form ball and leave to rise for 40 minutes covered in lightly oiled cling film

Stretch and fold, leave to rise further 40 minutes

Repeat stretch and fold a and leave to rise for a further 50 minutes

Form dough into well formed ball

Place on baking paper on back of baking tray

Leave to double in volume, use poke test

Use lame to slash

I then spray aga oven with water and put the baking tray on the lowest rack position having sprayed the dough surface with fine water spray
After 5 minutes further spray oven
After 5 more minutes remove bread and place on pizza stone sitting on the oven floor
Bake for further 20 minutes turning to achieved even bake

Remove bread and let stand for 1 hour

The result was a well formed loaf with oven rise and great hard crust
Crumb was best achieved yet, soft, springy and good taste

Need to adjust rise times as I think I very nearly over proofed

................

That's it , here are my pictures of bread and crumb.

Thanks to all





  








IMG_20130810_111328.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 10, 2013












  








IMG_20130810_111406.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 10, 2013












  








IMG_20130810_120909.jpg




__
john g


__
Aug 10, 2013








Poolish
150 g flour
150 g water
1/4 tsp instant dried yeast

Mix well, cover with cling film and stand on bench 12 hours

Bread
All of poolish
185 g water
350 g flour
15 g instant dried yeast
Mix and bring to form combined mass
Autolyse for 15 minutes covered in cling film

Add 8 g salt well distributed and form dough
Knead for 10 minutes with minimal flour on bench surface
Form ball and leave to rise for 40 minutes covered in lightly oiled cling film

Stretch and fold, leave to rise further 40 minutes

Repeat stretch and fold a and leave to rise for a further 50 minutes

Form dough into well formed ball

Place on baking paper on back of baking tray

Leave to double in volume, use poke test

Use lame to slash

I then spray aga oven with water and put the baking tray on the lowest rack position having sprayed the dough surface with fine water spray
After 5 minutes further spray oven
After 5 more minutes remove bread and place on pizza stone sitting on the oven floor
Bake for further 20 minutes turning to achieved even bake

Remove bread and let stand for 1 hour

The result was a well formed loaf with oven rise and great hard crust
Crumb was best achieved yet, soft, springy and good taste

Need to adjust rise times as I think I very nearly over proofed


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

StuartScholes said:


> That's it, you're getting the mindset now. Keep us posted. eace:


Hi Stuart

I have posted an update for your consumption

John


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Nest time you make miche or boule, try this: 

Find a ball or tightly woven basket ("banneton"), the bottom of which is close to the eventual shape you'd like.
Mix, knead and proof the loaf as before, until you get to the stage where you form the ball;
Form the ball by using the "pull down" technique, in order to get a lot of "surface tension" on the crust, while keeping as much air in the dough as possible;
Place the ball, seam side up, in your bowl or basket;
Allow the bread to rise for about 15 - 20 minutes;
Invert the loaf unto your peel (if you'll be using one), or baking pan, so that it's seam side down. Be careful to do this as gently as possible so as not to lose the rise;
Allow the miche to finish raising, slash as before, and into the oven as before.
The combined effect of not crushing the air out of the dough during formation, and flipping the bread over, will be a more even and airier texture.

BDL


----------



## john g (Aug 2, 2013)

Thank you BDL for that feedback, have been away for past 8 days hence delay in responding.

I do have a wicker banneton but yet to use it, I will dig it out with instructions and try as you suggest

Jg


----------



## stuartscholes (Jun 17, 2013)

Sorry for the late reply, been away. Looks good, glad you're enjoying it and getting the results you're looking for.


----------

