# Robert Irvine versus Gordon Ramsay



## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

Has anyone seen the commercial for the new show Kitchen Nightmares?

Robert Irvine is awesome. I met him for the first time on Dinner Impossible.
He earned my respect as a great leader and chef.

Gordon Ramsay on the other hand, is a jerk. I met him on Helll's Kitchen.
Do not watch this show, it is absolute garbage, in my opinion.

Anyway, I saw the Kitchen Nightmares commercial for the first time about 30 minutes ago, and at the end there is a scene with Robert Irvine in a rage _charging after_ Gordon Ramsay! Wow! As much as I hate Gordon, I want to see that episode! Chef Irvine is a _BIG_ guy!

Has anyone seen this commercial? What do you think?


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Haven't seen the commercial. But I know how I feel about the two of them.

Irvine does by doing.
Ramsay does by running his mouth about how great he is. 

I like one of them, and have no use for the other. Care to guess which is which. :lol:


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I don't know the American chef, so can't make a judgement - but have eaten at a number of Ramsay's restaurants in the UK and have never had a disappointing meal.

Frankly, as an ex-Glasgow Rangers football player - he's not someone who will be frightened of a fight


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

As a matter of fact, Ishbel, he isn't an American chef. Robert Irvine is as British as HRH (whom he has cooked for, btw, along with several other crowned heads). 

We all know, by now, your feelings about his majesty Gordon The Loud. But, frankly, when it comes to creativity and sheer kitchen talent, Irvine makes Ramsay look like a kid in a home-ec class.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I've never heard of Robert Irvine. Shoot me.

Let's be honest, you've PMd me about how wrong my views on Ramsay really ARE and how right yours are.... I said we should agree to differ. 
Obviously rudeness is allowed when differing opinions are expressed?:look:


----------



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

I watched a portion of a ****'s Kitchen marathon last week. Ramsey came across as a real jerk. I know it's only a TV show, but based on how he chose to present himself, I've little use for Ramsey. As for his cooking talents and his restaurants, I can't speak to those as I've never eaten his food nor been in one of his establishments. But, if I were to have a choice of sitting down to a meal, or having a drink with one or the other, based on what I've seen, I'd rather spend time with Irvine.

Shel


----------



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

It looks like this software won't allow me to write "H3ll's Kitchen" That's pretty silly <LOL>

Shel


----------



## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

I admit I didn't much like Robert Irvine at first, but I was glad to see him give instruction to inexperienced people and to show some respect for non-chefs he finds in the kitchens. When he catered the private school's graduation dinner he managed to compliment the "kitchen ladies" and recognize they didn't have formal training- but did have years of experience he needed to acknowledge. I think he was most frustrated with the culinary students at the CIA who didn't seem to be very self-directed when given tasks to do.

As for the shouting, isn't that normal when you're the chef trying to keep track of multiple stations? I'd think so.


----------



## craig.723 (May 9, 2007)

I'm a fan of both of the chefs!! I think those two chefs have a lot of talent and great leadership skills. But, I feel that many people have the impression that Gordon Ramsey has bad leadership and cooking skills because he makes people looks like a**es. My opinion is that order to become a great cook or chef there has to be humility! I've learned that it makes you stronger follow a great chef's high standards. If anyone wants to witness his cooking abilities there is a television network called BBC. Where there is original Kitchen Nightmares, The F Word, and etc. I think Robert Irvine is a good chef and a great leader. But, Gordon Ramsey is the better chef.


----------



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Have you eaten food prepared by both chefs?

Shel


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

"I've never heard of Robert Irvine. Shoot me."

Just so we understand fully. You're saying that you're so wired-in to the British culinary scene that if you haven't heard of a particular chef he or she just automatically has to be an American? Can't be British, or Ishbel would certainly know who he was, right?

And when it comes to rudeness......Revealing the contents of a private message is rude. Putting a spin on those contents, to make one party look better or worse goes far beyond rude.


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

FOOD FIGHT!!!!

[]

(sorry, just couldn't resist...)


----------



## tjlight (Aug 17, 2007)

I've watched Hll's Kitchen, Kitchen Nightmares, and Dinner Impossible. Ramsay and Irvine are apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. Neither is better, they're just different. Ramsay's restaurants have Michelin stars, Irvine's got CEC status.

Hll's Kitchen is supposed to make Ramsay look the way he does. If you watch Kitchen Nightmares (BBC America), he still drops the F bomb a lot, but he's not nearly the beast he's portrayed to be on HK. 

Irvine's quick thinking and ability to motivate people he doesn't know impress me. He is a CEC, so it's not like he's a slouch by any means.

When it all comes down to it, it's television. The way shows are edited these days, I find it impossible to make character judgements based on a television show.

Cheers! :beer:


----------



## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Excellent observation, IMHO! All theatre is a type of manipulation, and this is more or less innocuous.... right? :look:


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Just so WE understand one another. No, I'm not saying that because I haven't heard of someone they have to be AUTOMATICALLY an American chef... but it IS an American programme, I assume - and as I haven't heard of the gent, it would be a fair assumption to make in the circs. I have no great 'insight' into the British culinary scene. I have never claimed such. I have, however, unlike yourself, eaten at various Ramsay restaurants. I base my judgement on HIS food (not Mr Irvine's because, as I said, I do not know him).

You thought you could put me down in a PM. I did not 'reveal' what was in that PM here or anywhere else - so gie's a brek. 

You are a bully and it appears that you are able to get away with it on this forum.


----------



## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

Mezz I agree. Was reading thru this thread and was surprised to see that no-one had made such a comment yet. Yelling and impatience can and always will be a part of the trade - I've only a small experience of it but am convinced it goes hand in hand unless you're in a very exceptional situation.

I like both Irvine and Ramsay, for differing reasons. I dislike probably more things about Ramsay than Irvine, but both shows have different bents - no doubt influenced by producers/financiers, and exageration of the individual situation/basis of the show comes into it.

My 2 cents worth.....


----------



## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Ummmm....I mean, I suppose that Ramsey can come off as a complete jerk on TV, but remember that he has some of the most loyal staff at his restaurants, (you can't run multiple units in multiple countries without loyal staff), and has worked in some of the best restaurants in England and France, and for some of the most respected chefs in the biz. 

Don't know too much about Irvine, though I have seen the show a couple times. Seems OK. A good task manager and motivator, good at pumping volume. His food seems good, not great. Of course, I know I'm not seeing him at his best with unlimited ingredients, time, etc. 

But, I mean, Ramsey is one of the top chefs in the world, no real argument.


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

A lawsuit filed in New York last month charged Gordon Ramsey, star of the upcoming reality show "Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares," with faking scenes, including hiring actors to pose as customers. The parties were ordered to go to arbitration by a Manhattan judge.


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

KY and I have battled before...
Remember that you have thick skin (as any kitchen requires), get over it and move on

Cat Man


----------



## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

Ok I just had to Google Robert Irvine coz I'd never heard of him either! Seems he is a top pedigree chef started out in the Royal Navy at 15 yrs old and was swiftly recognised as a culinary talent. Promoted to Royal yacht Brittania he travelled all over the world cooking for anyone Royal, posh and important, lucky man! As for Ramsey, don't pay attention to all that effing and blinding, its just TV. Gordon Ramsey is one of the greatest chefs ever and you'd better believe it. You don't get all those michelin stars for nothing.


----------



## bluezebra (May 19, 2007)

I want to bring another perspective to this party. I like what I see of both on t.v. but that means nothing as Mezza aptly pointed out. 

But I work in advertising and marketing. One of the key rules of publicity and specifically free water-cooler-discussion-worthy word of mouth buzz which is what everyone yearns for is that you must do something worthy of discussing. I call it "controlled outrageousness". And it means sometimes you stage things. It makes for absolutely through the roof notariety but isn't so smashing for the unsuspecting audience who feel like they have been duped at times if it gets out.

Gordon Ramsay is pretty awesome at getting and brainstorming these types of situations. I honestly think he's pretty darn smart about it. He's obviously successful with a lot of it. Sometimes he will get bitten on the arse so to speak by it. But again in my opinion, if more restauranteurs were more savvy about this and about advertising/marketing there would be fewer restaurants going under. 

The old addage of "if you build it they will come" is pure non-sense. You have to tell or show people why they need or MUST come to your establishment. Then once you have them there you must be brilliantly consistent and deliver the "experience". 

So I think Gordon does that. Robert Irvine looks similarly brilliant from a chef perspective and leadership perspective but I don't know if he is as masterful in publicity as Ramsay.

Don't know if this opinion or view helps or not...but d-r-a-m-a sells!


----------



## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Almost anyone can get good publicity if they want it. Maybe Irvine doesn't want, or need, it for what he's doing. Is he running a bunch of restaurants that can benefit from such publicity?

Shel


----------



## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

This adds nothing to the discussion....but there's a Dinner Impossible marathon here on the idiot box today - so am sitting down to watch it to form an opinion. I do think Robert Irvine is a great organiser and lateral thinker. He's managed some really impossible situations.


----------



## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

More about Chef Irvine.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks for the info, OahuAC. 

According to that article and his qualifications and awards, it seems that Mr Irvine has spent much of his career in the USA... and, as I do not move in the same social circles as the British Royal Family, no wonder I'd never heard of him!!:lips:


----------



## coregonus (Aug 10, 2007)

Here is an update I picked from yesterday's news. I hope it helps.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Tom Colicchio of "Top Chef" fame lost a Michelin star at his New York restaurant Craft, while British celebrity chef Gordon Ramsay gained a rare two stars for his first U.S. venture. 

Ramsay's year-old restaurant, Gordon Ramsay at The London, won praise for "consistency in cuisine and service," Michelin Guide director Jean-Luc Naret told Reuters on Monday.
"Gordon Ramsay deserved two stars, not because of his name and TV fame, but because of the consistency of the multiple visits by inspectors throughout the year," Naret said.


----------



## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

Uh, is it illegal to have actors on a TV show? It seems expected that some of the scence are at least somewhat scripted.


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

A similar lawsuit was filed against him in the British version... he won that one.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

That's interesting news, Coregonus, thank you.... :bounce:


----------



## shakeandbake (Feb 24, 2007)

I usually hate shows that have been repurposed for American television from hit BBC shows. Kitchen Nightmares is the exception (and The Office).

The producers have done a great job a keeping with the original feel of the BBC series. The biggest difference is that the US version has more money to kick in when they renovate and make improvements to the failing business. 

Ramsey's style is no-bull management, like it or leave it. He gets results and based on what I can see, he is usually spot on when he is calling someone out on their bullshat. 

As far as staging/recruiting patrons or using actors for a show, it is pretty much a given. Do you really think that a previously failing restaurant fills up on the opening night, after a quick paint job and a menu change...heck no. I'm sure local patrons are used and actors/background are brought in to fill the place up as needed. That's showbiz, grammys, MTV Music awards, Oscars...even concerts are "papered" to make the venue appear almost sold out. It doesn't change the outcome of the show, so no harm, no foul.

Oh, and I like Dinner Impossible as well.


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

Kitchen Nightmares is both American and British. The American version began somewhat after and is based upon the British version. (Ramsay, right?)

Dinner Impossible is and American show. (Irvine?)

H3 Kitchen is an American show. (Ramsay)


----------



## smylietron (Oct 15, 2007)

I've dug Ramsay ever since he advocated eating horse meat. The guy's brutally honest, a **** good chef, and I'm embarrassed to admit I enjoy the machismo.

Irvine I know next to nothing about, but I'm learning more thanks to this thread.


----------



## carlaird (Jan 16, 2007)

Robert Irvine Is Just Hot!!!!!!!!
So He Wins Everything!


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Eh, I dunno, Irvine's too bulky up top... he looks like a WWF "wrestler" who took too many steroids.


----------



## younggun (Jun 10, 2007)

I think that what's been forgotten is that chefs are artists, and every artist has a different way of expressing themselves. Perhaps Irvine's quiet, no PR style of "real" cooking is how he's most comfotable. To compare him to Gordon Ramsay's balls-to-the-wall, flashy style is like comparing apples and oranges. Can you compare Picasso to van Gogh? Of course, but you would never come to a consensus because their art was individually fantastic. Ramsay has strength enough to run several restaurants worldwide, produce and star in television shows, and clearly stays fit and mentally sane. He's an amazing Chef, clearly. Michelin stars aren't given out like candy to anyone who's popular (Ahem, Bobby Flay), just like Academy Awards are never given out for popular films like Mission: Impossible. Irvine has come up in a very unique way and, judging from his show, is equally able to motivate and lead by different means.


----------



## jayme (Sep 5, 2006)

I also am not familiar w/ Irvine... but I have to admit, I'd love to have the opportunity to cook w/ Ramsey. Perhaps I'm a bit warped, but I love the challenge.... LOL the first time I ever saw H#ll's Kitchen, I said "I'd like to be in his kitchen- I bet I could learn alot!" I have heard from people that have said he does have a foul mouth and he is arrogant (who of us isn't at times?), but much of what you see on the tv show is theatrics. Did you catch the Bon Appetite mag issue about 3 months ago that did an "at home w/ Ramsey"? photos and interviews with his 4 young children (they have sheep in their backyard) and his beautiful wife..... he has obviously has got a talent that goes beyond the kitchen (4 tv shows now???), whether you like him or not, you have to respect his business sense.


----------



## andyg (Aug 27, 2007)

Better get your own style going tho, or you'll just be another "whoizzat"


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Jayme - a couple of years ago, Ramsay raised small pigs in his back garden, and named them after Trinny and Susannah, two 'style' gurus. He sent them to market with great relish!

Previously he'd kept turkeys - and named them after prominent UK chefs... ditto the relish!


----------



## smylietron (Oct 15, 2007)

That made me laugh out loud when I read about it.  But in truth I'm quite impressed--few if any of the most dedicated foodies raise their own meat, and I'd imagine Ramsay is quite keenly connected to his food.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

He is.... just try eating at his restaurants (but whisper that in here, there are those that haven't eaten at any of his places, but are contemptuous about the man and his skills!)


----------



## phoenix 12 (Oct 13, 2007)

It is made for TV. Now, Irvine, anyone that makes Mac&Cheese in a wheel barrow has to get some votes  Ramsey I do like him, but if I worked for him, he would be on his A**. He does seem like a decent guy though. I'm just a I don't care who you are your NOT screaming at me type of person.:smiles:

Mike


----------



## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

I've not eaten food personally prepared by Gordon Ramsay nor Robert Irvine. I have eaten in a Gordon Ramsay owned restaurant and spoken at length with Ramsay. He is an extraordinary individual. Ramsay was cordial and very open. I cannot believe the criticism he's taken in this thread from people who have never met the man and have formed impressions based soley on what they've seen on an edited TV program.


----------



## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

I reread my first post and am a bit embarrassed. You put things into a perspective I hadn't focused on. :blush:



How fast was that calf running....


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

Edited tv or not... it just says there may be two sides to the man, a nice and a nasty. I prefer people with just a nice side. There have been enough Ramsay insults and there has been enough footage of him screaming to make quite a few episodes of edited tv that show just his nasty side.


----------



## smylietron (Oct 15, 2007)

True, he has a nasty side, but isn't that how professional kitchens work? Experienced chefs I've talked with have said the head chef must at times be a monster in order to keep things running properly. You don't create a restaurant empire by coddling your staff. I think it's telling that he has so many loyal workers.


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

Not in the professional kitchen where I worked. Humiliating one's staff is not good leadership. If you have to be a monster to your employees, you're doing something dreadfully wrong. Does Ramsay have so many loyal workers? Or are they like the quintessential abused wife, with such low self-esteem that they fear nobody else would want them?


----------



## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

I like his philosophy, hey if you don't screw up you won't get bitched out right? He's not yelling at them to be mean or because he doesn't like them, it to provide a good experience for the customer and so the restaurant makes money.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Freerider - just look at the chefs who CHOOSE to run Ramsay kitchens here in the UK, including Marcus Wareing (ace, by the way!) at Petrus. He also promotes women... Always a plus in my book  - eg Angela Hartnett at the Connaught Gordon Ramsay's kitchen queen: Meet Angela Hartnett | Food monthly | The Observer


----------



## chefsean (Oct 18, 2007)

You can tell a lot about a person by doing some reading. Both Chef Ramsay and Chef Irvine have published books about themselves and their cooking.

The OP mentioned Chef Irvine in Kitchen Nightmares. Chef Irvine is not in any episode of that show. In that episode, Chef Ramsay was at an Italian restaurant in Long Island, NY named "Peter's". The big, beefy guy who was yelling and cursing was the manager and brother of the owner of "Peter's". His name is Peter Pelligrino, and I suppose he might look a bit like Chef Irvine on quick glance.

I am a fan of each of the chefs. Each has a cooking and leadership style that are at the same time delightful and insightful.

Chef Irvine is a master event planner and cook. Anyone who can cook gourmet foods at the incredible level of precision that Irvine does, all while cooking in conditions that are truly less than ideal, is a master. His "kitchen" conditions, per the show's theme, is what makes Chef Irvine shine. He has had a tremendous success in his career cooking for the royal family, US presidents, special events, etc. D:I is an excellent display of his prowess to "make it work". He and Chef Ramsay are totally different. I don't believe Chef Ramsay cooks for massive crowds, served all at once, buffet style using huge commercial pots and pans. Chef Irvine's cooking is "large scale" while Chef Ramsay is individual servings made to order.


Chef Ramsay has numerous Michelin stars spread across his restaurants. I believe his only failure was the Glasgow, Scotland restaurant that didn't meet the tastes of the clientèle location. His staff are loyal - his restaurants are run by chefs who have worked for Chef Ramsay for years. His trust is in them for one reason alone - they consistently meet his high standards. Call him a callous prig if you must, but don't believe for a second that he does not know his food, restaurants, and staff. Yes, he yells a lot on HK but those cooks don't meet his standards and that is the demand of them in that show. (Plus the drama!)

I'd work for either chef at any moment's notice and learn absolutely everything I could.

(Side note: HK is a British show. Chef Ramsay was the man at the pass during season one. I believe Chef Marco Pierre White is at the helm now. The US version is a cousin to the UK version. As is Kitchen Nightmares.)


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I ate at Ramsay's Glasgow restaurant. It wasn't a good meal.... probably the only one I've eaten at a Ramsay place that wasn't.


----------



## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

You should have called him to your table and told him, lol.


----------



## salliem (Nov 3, 2006)

I would work for Chef Ramsay in a heartbeat..as someone said on this thread, the knowledge to be gleaned would be amazing.


----------



## andyg (Aug 27, 2007)

There are those who kiss *** and there are those who find their own way. Who is brilliant? An imitator? Find your own way to excel or you are just a would-have-been


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Perhaps we should go to all the great chefs and home cooks and ask which one of them learned to cook well without watching someone else (i.e. their mothers) cook... I think you'll be surprised at the replies .


----------



## chefraz (May 10, 2007)

I really want to get into it here, but I don't have time yet . So I'll save it for later. but I will say this pms(Private Messages ) are suppose to be (private) when you reveal them. It makes your age seem younger. like 5 or 6 years old,talk to you later. ta ta for now.


----------



## salliem (Nov 3, 2006)

Kiss ***? Never have, never will...have been in this business for 29 years, learned the basics from a really good chef and have added my own spin..I am what I want to be. I happen to like Gordon Ramsay, just MY opinion.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Errrm, I did not repeat what was said in the PMs. I merely reported that there was a difference of opinion between me and the person I was addressing about how good or not a certain chef was.... 

I seem younger? 5-6 years old? No, that would be you, judging by this post.

So, I'll go and stand in the naughty corner until you get back to take me to task then....


----------



## bubbamom (Jan 30, 2002)

These are two successful chefs who happen to be on TV. How boring and ho-hum their quickly cancelled programs would be without putting some personnality and dramatics into it. Personally, I enjoy both programs, could do without some of the beeped out cussing, and would really like to taste their cooking. And as purely a sexist aside, wouldn't mind cooking with either of them. :crazy:


----------



## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

Oops!:blush: I guess that kinda defeats the purpose of this thread then! Oh well, it's been good conversation anyway.


----------



## smalltruck (Sep 27, 2007)

Interesting topic. Anthony Bourdain in his book "A Cooks Tour" talks about Ramsay very highly. IIRC he said Ramsay's attention to detail and the loyalty from his staff was amazing. 
George


----------



## smylietron (Oct 15, 2007)

Nothing! It's all been for nothiiiiiiiing! 

..but yeah, I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on Ramsay. And before the thread, I had no idea who Irvine was, so I'm glad for the misunderstanding!


----------



## chefsean (Oct 18, 2007)

We learn in so many ways. I could read a book on how to cook a meal. I could watch the television. I could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with a cook who knows the meal. I could throw ingredients in a pan and use my own know-how. Which is brilliant?

Any one of the techniques. Why? Because each will be a learning experience. None of us knows how to cook without first learning _something_. Imagine if painters didn't imitate Michelangelo or Monet or the caveman paintings - where would art be? The same could be said of cooking.

Why would I work for a chef like Ramsay or Irvine? Because they can _teach_. If I can cook a beautiful lobster with a fine cognac sauce for a diner that's great, but Chef Ramsay can teach me (and ride my bollocks) if I make "a pig's ear of it" when my cooking goes "pear shaped". Three Michelin stars comes with absolute perfection and precision something most of us do not have and which Chef Ramsay has in spades.

If I can't learn from my mentor(s), what chance do I have of reaching perfection? In my home kitchen? Never happen.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

A heartfelt post there!

As someone who has eaten the products of Ramsay's kitchens.... all I can say is: the food is great, the 'fingerprint' of the master is obvious in all the dishes.

Some like to pick holes in Gordon, based on his screen persona. All I've said, all along, is..... judge him by the loyalty of the staff he has trained and who STILL choose to work for him (even after gaining their own Michelin stars). 

Until you've eaten his food.... you have no basis on which to write an opinion!


----------



## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

KYHeirloomer, why do you dislike Chef Ramsay so much?


----------



## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

It appears that all that glitters is not gold.


----------



## andyg (Aug 27, 2007)

I didn't make my point very well . . . 

A highly accomplished person has a lot to teach us. In my trade I certainly would take the opportunity to learn from masters. I just meant that _you_ have to be a part of what you do if you're going to be a master, or even if you're not. That's my opinion. I also am of the opinion that when it comes to culinary arts, "perfection" is subjective.


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Heh, I suspected that it'd turn up when there was a new thread in the post. Well, now we'll wait until we find out GR never worked for Marco Pierre White and he simply stalked him after hours begging him to work for them.


----------



## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

There you go then...Ramsey rules!


----------



## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

Wow! wow!


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Hmmm - and there was me, being taken to task on this thread for never having heard about the man who had cooked for royalty and worked with the greats in London and all over the world.... A charlatan! :roll:

A friend sent me the link to the Florida article - interesting reading. Not only has his lies about cooking for some of the great and good been exposed, but so has his claims that he had a BSc from Leeds Uni - who have never heard of the man.

Doesn't mean he isn't a good cook - but why LIE?

It also means...

RAMSAY ROOLZ!:lol:


----------



## embroz (Mar 1, 2009)

Robert Irvine has NEVER been on Kitchen Nightmares


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Wow, the start of this thread is hillarious considering what we now know about Irvine.


----------



## embroz (Mar 1, 2009)

Gordon Ramsay is just amazing, it takes amazing skill to keep an eye on every single thing, and just keep everyone in line on ****'s kitchen. Also he has about 20 restaurants, and most of which are 5 star


----------



## docsmith (Aug 4, 2008)

I have to defend Ramsay as a person.

Don't forget TV is about entertainment and drama entertains. You can tell from his early shows he really DOES care, but saying the diplomatic thing doesn't get your show renewed. 

If you watch his shows you will see the people working with him at the start are still working with him today. You don't have long term retention like that if you are a jerk. 

The problem is the jerk is whats marketed and what sells.


----------



## embroz (Mar 1, 2009)

It's really not about ratings at all, chefs can really be like that. I have seem some crazy stuff happening in kitchens, and those people on ****'s kitchen really deserve what they get. It seems like people are so terrible at what they do that he needs to scream his head off to get through to them. In school, I have seen my chef yell, call people names, and take a failed batch of something, and just slam it on the ground. Ever hear of Jacques Torres? I hear he is comparable to a **** sometimes, he apparently is a total insane french chef that yells all the time. 

Also I would love it for someone to explain to me the episode of kitchen nightmares, that shows Robert Irvine "charging" Ramsay.


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Ever watch Ramsay's first appearance on TV? The segment on Boiling Point where he first opens his restaurant on Hospital Road? Like it or not, that is him at work.

I can understand a person of that sort of passion, somebody who feels that nothing is going right and his only recourse is to be a bloody ***.


----------



## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Everybody knocks Irvine for his embelished resume. Has anyone given thought to why Marco Pierre White does not talk to his student Ramsey anymore?
I think in their individual settings they are both good. Haveing always been in the high volume banquet business, I would wrather have Irvine working along side of me then Ramsey. If I were in A La Carte upscale I would prefer Ramsey
 ""Everyone to their own""


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Just a note, Wareing and Ramsay recently parted ways and he is no longer part of the Gordon Ramsay brand name... it is interesting to analyze these much-publicized break-ups, I know the staff of Aubergine walked out with him (including Wareing), but it's also interesting to see how some of those friendships and partnerships disintegrated.


----------



## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Have you read Devil in the Kitchen, pretty much explains their falling out. (Good book BTW)


----------



## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I am waiting for my local library to call me. I requested it to be put on hold.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

The reality seems to be that Marcus Wareing grew tired of being under the constraints of working for someone else - even if that 'some else' is/was a good friend. 
His restaurant is presently still a GR restaurant, but they do not intend to renew his (GRs) contract and Marcus W jumped at the chance!
Here's something from the Daily Telegraph - and I read the full article in the Waitrose magazine a while back.

Gordon Ramsay savaged by fellow chef Marcus Wareing - Telegraph

I love Wareing's style of cooking, too - and let's face it, he's worked for GR since 1993... a lifetime in restaurant terms, surely?


----------



## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

But he could've broken off from Ramsay under more amicable circumstances, and gotten a blessing from his ex-friend... just the way in which he did it... I don't know if it speaks to Wareing's personality, Ramsay's or a bit of both.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The partner, "Jeffrey," is Jeffrey Chodorow who owns a few restaurants through his company, China Grill Management: china grill management // eat. drink. celebrate.

After getting DiSpirito kicked out, he reopened the restaurant as something completely different, a Brazilian steakhous, with another "celebrity chef," Claude Troisgoros. Troisgoros and Chodorow are partners in another restaurant, "The Blue Door," located in a Schrager Hotel, like most of Chodorow's places. The Brazil connection came through Troisgoros' wife who is (wait for it) Brazilian. The restaurant, Braserios something didn't last long either. Perhaps something to do with the location. Chodorow's major claim to fame is that he's a convicted felon. In fact, unlike some felons, Chodorow is a thief, liar and major scumbag who got off much easier than he should have.

BDL


----------



## docsmith (Aug 4, 2008)

After reading that article I think the Telegraph must be using a different definition of 'savaged' then I do.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, Doc, the Telegraph (or Torygraph as it is commonly known) is a VERY genteel newspaper..... :lol:


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you prefer the term, "turked?"

BDL


----------



## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Rocco and Jeffrey deserved one another.. Jeffrey would screw his own mom and Rocco will chase anything in a skirt . Most of Jeffreys start up $ was ill gained.:crazy:


----------



## backofthehouse (Jan 27, 2011)

First, let me say I am an avid follower and fan of both Chef Ramsay and Chef Irvine. Even as Chef Irvine went through what had to be an extremely difficult time for him as discrepancies were discovered on his resume,  I felt that regardless, he was a fantastic chef with warmth and humor who has a lot to offer.  When he lost his head chef role on Dinner Impossible (albeit temporarily), I felt it was a rash decision that they would eventually regret due to a significant drop in viewer ratings. I was right. Thankfully, he eventually resumed his role on the show and continues to impress me with each challenge.

Having said that I have to say I believe comparing Chef Ramsay and Chef Irvine is like comparing apples and oranges. They are two completely different grades of chef in education, experience and success. Chef Irvine has one restaurant (Eat!) and Chef Ramsay has not only multiple successful restaurants but holds multiple Michelin Stars. Chef Ramsay trained under the best chefs (french included, hence his inclination to yell and scream)  and has proven to be one of the top culinary professionals in multiple countries.

This does not imply that Chef Irvine is not extremely talented. Just that they are on a different scale.

The shows, Kitchen Nightmares and Restaurant Impossible, are also different in many regards. They have the same basic concept but one (Kitchen Nightmares) seems to be focused on evaluating the competition in the neighborhood, eliminating any troublesome employees that refuse to adjust their way of doing things even if it means the demise of the restaurant (and oftentimes the owners last hope), and overhauling the look and feel of the restaurant, quality of the food being first and foremost.

The other (Restaurant Impossible) focuses on many of the same items but on a scaled down platform. There is certainly a benefit to this format...restauranteurs that don't have $100k+to overhaul the front and back house of their restaurant, can watch and implement some or all of the improvements on their own without relying on being chosen for a television show.  

Overall, I think both chefs have a place in broadcasting but if it came down to success based solely on culinary talent, Chef Ramsay would win hands down. Personally, I hope to see them both on the air for quite some time with their respective talents so that I can tune in to learn different things from each of them.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

A Note  As BDL and a few others know, The celebrity chef reastaurants are not in most cases owned by the chefs. They more or less franchise their name. Flay for example was backed by a former politician and his son in  ex Mayor Ed Koches office. Most of the guys neither have the money or business accumen to open a place.The backers figure that they have built in advertising and exposure.They are almost like Angels who take a chance and back Broadway plays.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I don't understand the point of that comment, Ed?

In any business partnership there are several contributions. Some bring capital to the table. Some bring talent. Some bring the marketability of their names.

To say that celebrity chefs don't own their restaurants is to say that anyone with a mortgage doesn't own their home, because the bank brought the money to the closing.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

The point is a lot of people on here think these guys actually own all of their places and built and financed them alone. And as I said I look at some of them like a franchise.!  Or its like who do you know and not what you know. And in theory you do not own your house till title is turned over and mortgage to lender or financial institution is paid in full, at least not here in Florida..


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

chefedb said:


> ... And in theory you do not own your house till title is turned over and mortgage to lender or financial institution is paid in full, at least not here in Florida..


Well, you may not "own the home", but you certainly "own the equity in the home" (yes, I know, I KNOW, in this day and age that equity may be negative!).


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Didn't mean to turn this into a discussion of real estate laws and practices (although, Ed, I suggest you check Florida's homestead act before you make categorical statements about home ownership in that state). The point was that a partner is a partner, whether you brought talent to the table or finances, or merely buy stock in a company. So long as you have an equity position you are an owner.

Anyone want to make a case that my ten shares in GM don't make me an owner?

Ownership, and partnership, doesn't mean that everybody has an equal share in the business. But whether you hold 1% or 99% you are still an owner. And come what may, that's all a restaurant is, a business whose function is delivering prepared food to customers.

More to the point, suggeting that anyone here, let alone "a lot of people on here," believes that the celebrity chef whose name is on the door put up the financing out of his own pocket, built the building, stocked the furniture, etc. is naive at best. He/She may or may not have contributed to those decisions. But they do not determine whether he/she is an owner.

Mario Batali's name is on the door because it brings in customers, whereas Joe Bastianich's name wouldn't attract dinner #1. But that doesn't make either one of them more or less an owner.

_Or its like who do you know and not what you know. _

I think not. Something can only be marketed if it's marketable. If your name is Bobby Flay, or Robert Irvine, or Mario Batali, or Gordon Ramsey, than you have something a moneyman is willing to take a chance on. If your name is Ed Buccanan, maybe not so much.

But let's say you're name had that kind of draw, and you wanted to open a turnkey restaurant. Obviously, you don't have a whole lot more money than I do. So you turn to my son, Seth, who is an investment banker. As a rule, he insists, on the companies he helps, in taking part of his fee in stock. You agree, up front, that you will retain 40% of the stock, for the value of your name. Seth with take a 10% equity position. You further agree that, while you will be in charge of menu design, recipe development, oversight, etc. you won't be running the place day to day. Here's how it breaks down:

ChefEd: Owner

Seth: Owner

Investers: Owners

Architect: Non-owner, is paid a fee.

Contractor: Non-owner, is paid a fee.

Design consultant: Non-owner, is paid a fee.

Actual chef: Non-owner, but might have a share of revenues.

What you've been arguing is that given these circumstances you are not really an owner, despite holding title to 40% of the joint. If the place is successful I doubt that your heirs and assignees will feel quite the same.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

KYH I suggest you also check the laws. re. Homestead. 

. Homestead in Florida is in this day and age strictly for saving on taxes. You can still be foreclosed on and even the marshall can come to the premise and assist in throwing you out.Trust me I already had to foreclose on someone that I sold house to.that I held paper on. Homesteading by the way was done when Florida was developing and state issued an incentive to own and purchase homes.

You would be surprised how many students as well as others think the chef did it all. Unlike you and I that are involved in the business on a daily  basis some people don't know. Also when you purchased your 10 shares of GM you PURCHASED an equity share.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Also when you purchased your 10 shares of GM you PURCHASED an equity share._

So what? Maybe I bought them. And maybe I was gifted with them. And maybe they were issued to me in return for services rendered. Doesn't matter how I obtained title. Just legally having them makes me an owner in the company.

Same with a restaurant or any other business. If I have title to any part of it, then I can describe myself as an owner.

_some people don't know_

I'm sure some people---2 or 3 or even a dozen---don't. But that's a long way from "lots of people on here." Given the thousands of people belonging to this community, and their positions as industry professionals, passionate home cooks, and serious foodies, I doubt if there's a significant number who are unaware of how restaurants are fiscally organized.

I'd really be interested in hearing from those who, until this thread, believed that the typical chef-owner self financed his restaurant.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Then call it a matter of interpretation. yours and mine totaly differ. You are entitled to yours and I mine, thats what makes the world go around.


----------



## breadmaker man (Jan 25, 2011)

While I really don't like Ramsay as a person or as a chef, I can't stop watching his shows. Being from down under I don't imagine that episode will be on here for a while but I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

Breadmaker - hi from another Aussie   I'm the same  with Ramsay's shows.  I know he knows his stuff.  It's just that to me, as to you I think, his shows become addictive.  He is very well marketed you'll have to give him and his P.R./marketing  team a pat on the back.   They package him well for the audience.

 The shows of his I like best are the Kitchen Nightmare ones (I think that's the right name).  Followed closely by Hell's Kitchen just for the hilarity.


----------



## piratechefny (Jan 29, 2011)

So far i'm liking Ramsay's "nightmare" better than Irvine's. Has nothing to do with either of them as chef's but more with the production of the show. Maybe i'm just used to Ramsay's show and the progression each episode takes. With that said we're only two episodes in on Irvine's version so i might just warm up to it. I certainly hope they don't bring back the design duo from the first show.... that was an unmitigated disaster and I doubt their work on TV will net them any business. It was a trainwreck. 

Gordon was marketed in the United States as a beast but I believe it's more of a production and sales stand point. If you watch his UK show "boiling point" he's a far shade away from what he is portrayed as in Heil's Kitchen, which, IMO is the Jerry Springer of cooking shows but hey.... it sells and people eat it up.


----------



## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I think Restaurant Impossible tries to do it all too fast. 2 days is absurd, and a $10k budget is also not a great thing. I like Irvine's behavior better than than Ramsay's. Irvine isn't being degrading, insulting, etc. However, Ramsay doesn't set a budget and constrain the "help" provided by a specific cost. Ramsay's week-long adventure is, IMHO, much more helpful than two days. If Restaurant Impossible had the same timeline and less focus on a specific dollar amount, I think it would be a better show. 


piratechefny said:


> So far i'm liking Ramsay's "nightmare" better than Irvine's. Has nothing to do with either of them as chef's but more with the production of the show.


----------



## breadmaker man (Jan 25, 2011)

DC Sunshine said:


> Breadmaker - hi from another Aussie  I'm the same with Ramsay's shows. I know he knows his stuff. It's just that to me, as to you I think, his shows become addictive. He is very well marketed you'll have to give him and his P.R./marketing team a pat on the back. They package him well for the audience.
> 
> The shows of his I like best are the Kitchen Nightmare ones (I think that's the right name). Followed closely by Hell's Kitchen just for the hilarity.


Very true. It's like they have a stipulation that he has to go completely off-tap at someone at least once in every episode.


----------



## piratechefny (Jan 29, 2011)

it comes down to how much money the networks are willing to shell out to make it happen. Ramsay operates on a bigger budget that's for sure, and i'm sure that they get nice donations from the manufacturers when they use their equipment. that's all on Food TV though, and i know first hand that they are cheapskates. if they want a better show then they need to pony up and allow for a longer remake of the venue and open up the budget. i doubt that will happen though.... they will most likely get enough viewers to sustain the show without doing it well.

Ramsay has run into some real stubborn schmucks who need a good kick in the pants and i don't expect him to go in and baby these people. they called the show for a reason and are in serious trouble. Irvine takes a different approach but i have yet to see him deal with some of the pigheaded people Ramsay has. another part of it is that they are trying to maintain some of that beast in the kitchen attitude that made the soap opera hail's kitchen so popular. again... whatever sells; but i don't think either of his US based shows are an accurate representation of the guy. he is known to be tough (coming up in Marco's kitchen could/should do that) but not to the extreme that we see here on TV.


----------



## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm an American and I've never heard of Irvine. What network? When? I've never seen him.

I'm looking for an alternative to Ramsay. At first I saw his shouting and belittling the poor contestants on his show as a device for ratings. OK for a while, but I'm sick and tired of it now. He is probably a pretty good chef, but he certainly doesn't share that with the world. The few times I've seen him on other shows, the recipe was very simple - can't remember exactly what now, but it was like a peanut butter sandwich or something, I thought: _any 10 year old could do that._

DD


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Irvine is British, but he made his celebrity bones on the Food Network. His primary claim to fame is a show called "Dinner Impossible," in which he and his crew have less than a day to prepare a meal for some really offbeat parties. Naturally there are all sorts of twists, turns, and unlikely scenarios tossed in.

In a fit of moral high dungeon (which is really funny, considering the source), FN fired him for inconsistences (read lies) in his credentials. But his replacement was a dud. Ratings being everything, they quietly hired him back, pretending that there never was a flap over his resume.

He's appeared in a number of their special shows as well, such as Iron Chef America and The Best Thing I Ever Ate. And appeared as a guest alongside a long list of their other stars, including Paula Dean, Rachael Ray, and Guy Fieri.

His newest show, also on FN, is Restaurant Impossible, in which he has two days and ten grand to remake a failing restuarant. Although I'm sure the success of Kitchen Nightmares has much to do with it, there used to be a similarly formatted show on FN that it's more likely based on. I misremember who starred. And there was a similar show, aimed at home kitchens, that Cat Cora starred in.


----------



## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

KYH - that's interesting about Irvine and MI.  I had no idea that had happened.  Personally, I am not one to care much for credentials as such.  The proof is in performance.  I enjoyed that show, if for nothing but the theatre.

I guess eventually we may see Restaurant Impossible here.  If it's along the lines of Kitchen Nightmares and at least half as good, it should be watchable.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I have really never seen Ramsey get in there and do everything like Irvine. They are both good at what they do. I would sooner work side by side  with Irvine.To pull off what he does with $10,000.00 and 1 day or 2 is pretty resourceful.. His prep seems to be done with a lot of shortcuts, but you do what you have to do, As long as patrons walk out happy thats fine.He seems to be a good organizer and good with people, even though he was not Queen Elizabeth's chef.as the food channel said his resume stated.


----------



## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Mr Irvine may be British, but his fame appears to be based on his work the USA. I have never seen a programme he's 'starred' in, so I have no personal knowledge of his skills or otherwise.

However ... his lies on his CV and training - including Leeds University - were astounding. Why LIE? He seems to be a well-respected chef over there and his TV shows are obviously popular.

A chef who really DID cook for the Queen on HMS Britannia is Tony Singh, an Edinburgh-born Sikh, who owns 2 restaurants in Edinburgh, including the amazing Oloroso. http://www.oloroso.co.uk/about/index.html Now, he really WAS trained by cooking for queen and VIPs! Unlike Mr Irvine who seems to have been abstemious with the truth regarding his White House experiences!


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

What bothers me more than his exaggerations is FN's attempt to take the moral high ground over the issue.

Why did he lie? He's the only one who knows for sure. But we're talking about the entertainment industry, which is built on lies and half-truths. If the producers can do it, why not the talent?

Here's an example. Bobby Flay's Throwdown show. In each case, the ones being challenged are told they'll be part of a special FN is producing, usually  a look at X type thing. So they're all geared up for that, and spend several days cooking, and addressing the cameras, and incurring out of pocket costs, and so forth. Each participant in this special finishes up with a party to demonstrate the highlighted food item(s).

During the party, Bobby Flay shows up unannounced. Surprise! Surprise! It was all a joke. I'm here to challenge you to an X throwdown.

Now here's the $64,000 question: How is FN's format of that show and Robert Irvine's resume different? My contention is, not at all. Or, at best, there's a difference of degree, not of kind.

And ultimately FN really ate crow. After publicly berating Irvine for what he'd done, and taking this phony moral position, they went and hired him back when ratings slipped. Ya gotta love that kind of ethical position: "All is forgiven, Robert. Come home----and make us more money."

Of course, FN has always operated on a double standard when it comes to morality. I'll never forget, during one of the next food network star episodes when Suzie Fogelman---who was herself wearing a dress that demonstrated the old adage that if you give some girls an inch they've got a new bathing suit---berated one of the contestents for using her chest instead of her cooking chops, to garner support. Say what? Does Suzie ever watch her own shows? Giada, and Sandra Lee, and..... well, we all know who they are.

If Hugh Hefner started producing a cooking show called Boobs and Bourguignon he'd only be copycatting many of FNs shows. But it's immoral for a contestent to behave as the current stars do. Gimme a break.


----------



## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Thanks!  I have to confess my life got better in most ways when I dropped cable.  So I won't be seeing Irvin.   For a while I was on food network withdrawal, I used to leave the TV on all day and since I could not stand soaps, it was mainly on HGTV or FN.  But after  while I got hooked on NPR and after a year or so of watching little to no TV, I dropped cable.   Now days I only turn on the tube when I'm engaged in hobbies, thinking I'll watch when I do them.  But mostly it is on for noise, I could do radio with no loss. 

DD


----------



## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I like the difference in leadership styles between Irvine and Ramsay, and how they focus individuals.

Gordon is the old military a-type leader: Break them down and then build them back up in the image/form you want them to be.

Robert employes the new synergy-style leadership: Accept people where they are and coach them to adopt new methods where needed.

Both leadership styles have a valid application - I don't think you can just use one or the other. It has to be blended and the right tools need to be adapted to the person or the environment.

Another show that could be a case study for leadersgip is that new Gold Miners show on Discovery I believe. It is about a group of men who head to Alaska to strike it rich.

The show is littered with communication, leadership, personality, group interactions that are almost textbook leadership and management cases.

Very cool to watch, in spite of the fact I could care less about the actual gold minimg point of the show.


----------



## redzuk (Dec 7, 2010)

Emeril was the only one I cared to watch.  I'd watch Iron Chef if they would give Alton the boot.


----------



## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I can think of no one that could do the job that Alton does on ICA better than Alton does it. I'm amazed at what he does during the show. The "chairman" is a waste of time, IMHO. I am curious when they will stop with "The Next Iron Chef", because at some point, they'll have all of the talent as Iron Chefs and no one to compete against them.



redzuk said:


> Emeril was the only one I cared to watch. I'd watch Iron Chef if they would give Alton the boot.


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Ah, I can see it now.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif "Ultimate Cage Cooking!"



gobblygook said:


> ...at some point, they'll have all of the talent as Iron Chefs and no one to compete against them.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Prep a meal for 10 with a Blindfold on and Hands Tied together / . Winner is admitted into ''The Order of the Golden Toque.''


----------

