# Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM for home cook (+sharpening stones)



## alexane

Hi

I have seen this discussed before but please bare with me.

I'm considering the 210mm Gyuto and both models ( Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM ) seem very similar in handle and profile (I usually push cut so the flatter edge suits me) and both seem fairly thin which I like.
Both are in the same price which is about $80 US so no difference from that point of view.
I'm a home cook and both knives will be a major upgrade from anything I have used before (like Masterclass or Berghoff







).

Now the Tojiro uses a "sandwich" of metals having a hard metal in the middle and a softer one at the sides while Fujiwara is a one piece steel.
I've read that the Tojiro edge is kind of brittle if misused (which I don't intend to but..) or even when using a steel rod which is not ultra fine (I have used the steel a lot with my previous knives) so my question is if the one piece Fujiwara which is slightly softer (HRC rating 58-59 vs 61) has any advantage in being less brittle and more "tolerant".
By the way I use a bamboo board and take great care of my knives and avoid hard surfaces.

What about sharpening, is the single piece better in any way compared to the DP "sandwich"?
Is steel rod a no go for both these knives or they are different in any way?

My sharpening skills are fairly good but I don't use water stones apart from one I have for polishing (edited: it is actually a Belgian blue whetstone, about 5000), I have a couple of DMT diamond "stones" (Dia-Sharp) 325/600/1200 grit which I use and I like the guaranteed flatness they have.

Will I be able to use these diamond stones or the Japanese waterstones are a must?
I might even buy a ceramic DMT at some point , (2200 and 8000) , would that work with these knives?

Thank you
Alex

Updated: here is an image of my steel rod (Masterclass brand), it has microgrooves on it





  








IMG_3880.jpg




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alexane


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Feb 26, 2013








Are these garbage rods that damage the knifes?

I have seen similar ones from brands like J.A. Henckels


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## davezatyowa

I have no direct experience with Tojiro, but the idea that Tojiro knives may be brittle probably stems from its use of VG-10 steel. VG-10's reputation for 'chippiness' seems to come mostly from Shun knives which have experienced some problems. Whether this is a _real_ problem with Shun's heat-treat of VG-10, or is simply the result of inexperience/misuse in Shun's large user base, who can say for sure? I have about 12 knives that use VG-10 steel; only one has shown any chippiness. It's not a Shun but _is_ a Kai-fabricated blade... Kai being the Shun parent company. The other VG-10 knives, including some other Kai blades, have had no problems, and have been excellent performers.

Re. use of bamboo board: the consensus is that end-grain oriented hardwood boards are best. Bamboo is suspected of dulling blades more than the better boards, but I don't know if there's any real science on this. I suspect it matters more that you use sharp knives that require little force, with good cutting technique; that should get you decent edge retention on a bamboo board. It's mostly board contact that dulls kitchen blades; if your technique is light and smooth your edges are likely to benefit.

The Fujiwara and esp. Tojiro knives are hard enough to be getting into the grey area, steeling-wise. Hard steels may suffer more harm than good from grooved honing steels. You may want to consider using either a polished (completely smooth) steel or a good ceramic/borosilicate rod instead.

[I'll leave further sharpening comments to those with greater expertise re. waterstones]


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## franzb69

fujiwara fkm (the stainless line) would probably respond better to steeling as they are 58 RC, a tad softer than tojiro DP that's at 60RC. but i wouldn't use a steel if at all. I always true my knives now on my finer stones like my 5k and 8k stones.


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## boar_d_laze

Unless you have a very specific reason for preferring a 210mm knife, get a 240.  We can discuss this if you have an open mind.

As san-mai VG-10 knives go, the Tojiro DP is neither particularly chippy nor is it particularly chip resistant.  For some reason most chips with these sorts of knives seem to happen when the knife is new and before the owner has sharpened it a few times.  So, if you choose a DP, be extra careful when it's new.

The DP has -- by any standards -- a large, wide and boxy handle (not quite as boxy or as poorly finished as it used to be, though).  The FKM's handle is pretty typical for a Japanese knife, which is perhaps a little narrow by European standards.  The FKM's handle certainly doesn't get the amount of complaints that the DP does. 

Neither knife is notorious for really good or really bad fit and finish, but -- given that there's some variation from knife to knife -- the FKM is likely to be slightly better than the DP in that respect.

It's likely but not certain that the FKM will come sharper out of the box. 

I feel that the FKM's profile more agile, but that the DP is stiffer.  Despite its stiffness, I don't like the DP's feel, because like all san-mai knives, it feels muted to me.  That's not a majority view of san-mai, but it's not exactly unusual either.  Both knives are reasonably light. 

The FKM is a mono-steel knife made from an alloy called AUS-8.  The DP (as already said) is san-mai with soft stainless surrounding a VG-10 core.  As others have pointed out, the FKM is hardened to 58 RCH, the DP to 61; but don't make too much out of the hardening.  The big takeaway is that both alloys are hardened to respectively appropriate numbers. 

The DP will take a very slightly better edge than the FKM; but you're probably not a good enough sharpener to make it happen. 

You're overlooking a third knife in this price/value/quality class and that's the Richmond Artifex which is more comfortable and made from a better alloy than either of the other two, but doesn't have the same level of visual finish.  As far as my own preferences go, I'd rate the three knives in the following order:  1) Artifex; 2) FKM; and 3) DP, where "1" is best.  That said, they're all very good knives, all a lot of quality for the money, but none of them world-beaters. 

All three can be profitably steeled as long as you use an appropriate steel and steel with a soft, light touch.  I don't know your steel, but since good rods are so cheap I suggest replacing it with a really good rod like a HandAmerican "fine." 

All three knives sharpen easily and are undemanding when it comes to sharpening equipment.  I don't know how well a Belgian Blue would work with any of the three knives.  I knew someone who used a Blue with a FKM and really liked it, but I'm not sure how much respect his opinion should be accorded.  In my opinion, it's worth a try as a medium or medium/fine stone in a kit which also includes a coarse and a medium/coarse. 

DMT diamond stones are NOT good choices for knives of this sort.  A decent set of water stones would be much better. 

Bamboo is not wood, it's grass.  There are a few problems with bamboo boards, related to the bamboo itself and how much of the board surface will be glue instead of bamboo.  A good wood board, whether long grain or end grain is significantly easier on your knives than bamboo, or anything else for that matter.  However, besides "wood," the other operative word is "good."  Rubber (i.e., "Sani-Tuff"), bamboo, and even composition are no worse than junk wood boards.

BDL


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## alexane

> Originally Posted by *DaveZatYoWa*
> 
> Re. use of bamboo board: the consensus is that end-grain oriented hardwood boards are best. Bamboo is suspected of dulling blades more than the better boards, but I don't know if there's any real science on this. I suspect it matters more that you use sharp knives that require little force, with good cutting technique; that should get you decent edge retention on a bamboo board. It's mostly board contact that dulls kitchen blades; if your technique is light and smooth your edges are likely to benefit.


Yes, I have read that about bamboo so I may change it at some point but in general I don't hit the edge to the board , I rather slice things using a cutting motion.


FranzB69 said:


> fujiwara fkm (the stainless line) would probably respond better to steeling as they are 58 RC, a tad softer than tojiro DP that's at 60RC. but i wouldn't use a steel if at all. I always true my knives now on my finer stones like my 5k and 8k stones.


ok, that shouldn't be a problem, I can avoid using the steel rod for the Japan knife or get a ceramic rod so I guess we can get this out of the equation.

[h1]I'm kind of confused about this brittle mentioned in other threads but I'm not sure why I read it for Tojiro DP and not for Fujiwara FKM.
I think that the harder a material the more it can break instead of bend and if this is a case why a 59 metal is not brittle and a 61 is, the difference isn't that big.
This is why I wonder if the sandwich construction is what causes this problem and maybe it is better to get the single metal knife.
Because of that I also read some recommendation for 20 to 30 degree edge so that the edge lasts more because the 11 or 15 degree don't last much, unless of course this is true for both knives.

I also read that Tojiro DP uses a 50/50 edge while the Fujiwara FKM a 70/30 , I'm not sure what are the advantages of each one (for a right handed person).[/h1]
Also that because of the sandwich construction of Tojiro the uneven edges don't work very well.

Normally I would expect the harder knife to hold a better edge longer but at the same time this seems be a problem because the knife is more brittle.

Alex


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## alexane

> The DP has -- by any standards -- a large, wide and boxy handle (not quite as boxy or as poorly finished as it used to be, though). The FKM's handle is pretty typical for a Japanese knife, which is perhaps a little narrow by European standards. The FKM's handle certainly doesn't get the amount of complaints that the DP does.


My hands are not very big but on the other hand I have used different knives and never had a problem , I adjust pretty well to different handles.


> You're overlooking a third knife in this price/value/quality class and that's the Richmond Artifex


I've read about it in another thread with recommendations but I don't have a source where I can buy from at a good price (when shipping cost is added, I'm located in Greece).


> DMT diamond stones are NOT good choices for knives of this sort. A decent set of water stones would be much better.


That is very unfortunate, what makes the use of diamond problematic with Japan knives?
I mean if I do the job with the 1200 mesh diamond and then polish with a water stone will these give good results or I have to use waterstones all the way?


> I don't know your steel, but since good rods are so cheap I suggest replacing it with a really good rod like a HandAmerican "fine."


As in general , is the microgroove steel rod likely to damage steel knives and should be avoided completely or is this just the case when used with the Japan knives?
The image I have attached in the first post if from my rod and I have to say zoomed in it seems to be quite aggressive and I wonder if I should throw it away because it may be damaging even my cheap knives which have a good edge after sharpening but don't retain it for long (I'm sure that the knife metal is part of that too of course).
I"m sure it is down to the knife metal but the steel rod may be a part of it



> As san-mai VG-10 knives go, the Tojiro DP is neither particularly chippy nor is it particularly chip resistant. For some reason most chips with these sorts of knives seem to happen when the knife is new and before the owner has sharpened it a few times. So, if you choose a DP, be extra careful when it's new.


I assume this is not related to a change of angle for the edge but comparing an edge with the same angle.

If what I read is correct it is about 11 degree so if at the resharpening it becomes 20 degree it will hold more.


> The DP will take a very slightly better edge than the FKM; but you're probably not a good enough sharpener to make it happen.


Probably not...yet.

Thank you all for your help

Alex

P.S. my posts are moderated so they take a while to appear ans maybe the order will be messed up.


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## alexane

> Unless you have a very specific reason for preferring a 210mm knife, get a 240. We can discuss this if you have an open mind.


I'm torn about this, I have only owned 8" knives and the length is enough for what I cut at home, I'm not sure if I want my first good knife to be a longer one that may limit it's use.


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## alexane

was a duplicate of the previous post


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## davezatyowa

alexane said:


> I'm torn about this, I have only owned 8" knives and the length is enough for what I cut at home, I'm not sure if I want my first good knife to be a longer one that may limit it's use.


Yes, it can be hard to make the first jump to a longer blade with a good Japanese knife. I was able to first try a longer blade on a cheaper (but still decent) knife that wasn't too costly. For example, 10" (approx 254mm) Victorinox/Forschner Fibrox knives are widely used in professional kitchens; they cost about $30, are serviceable and can get quite sharp, and are one way to get a feel for a longer lighter-weight blade. They can usually be found (here, anyway) at most restaurant supply shops. If you end up getting a better Japanese blade, the Fibrox knife will still be good to have as a backup or loaner.

I like the longer knives because they have a longer straight-ish section on back portion of the blade, providing a longer slice for larger items. If you do any tip-down cutting they act a bit like a longer lever; because they're longer they don't require quite as much vertical lift/motion to get the same effect. Although I still enjoy using an 210mm knife on occasion (they feel very light and nimble), a 240mm Japanese blade is my current preference for most things. On a lightweight Japanese knife, the 240mm blade still feels pretty nimble.


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## mike9

From 210mm to 240mm we're talking a little over an inch in length.  I like 270mm for home use - it's closest to the 10" carbon chef knives I'm used to - forgecraft, lamson, dexter, ect.  Decide if you want to devote the few extra movements to carbon.  If you do you will be well rewarded.  I've been trying stainless clad and mono-steel lately and am very impressed, but they are spendy.  If you commit to learning sharpening then AEB-L with a good heat treat can be a great blade.  Artifex comes to mind - affordable, USA made and a good sharpening primer for under $100 delivered.

Hey - you want a nice Forgecraft 10" Wa-conversion let me know - I have a couple I'm ready to part with.


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## betowess

I have a fairly small counter/kitchen space, so I really like using my 8 inch chef knives just fine. FWIW, I use my six inch chef knife a lot too!

When I have a larger kitchen, I'll probably start using my 10 inch more often. But currently, I don't use my 10 inch as much as my various 8 inch knives which I have four of. If it was me,  I would maybe borrow a friends and try each size to see what works best.

Regards steels, I know some abroad buy from Chefknivestogo.com.  I imagine there are a lot of choices in Greece for steels and what not too. I like my inexpensive ten inch (smooth) round polished steel by F. Dick. Its called F Dick "Packing House" steel. After reading others did this, I sanded my down with 125 grit sandpaper, progressing down to 400 grit, the wet/dry stuff. Some go all the way to 1200 grit, but I'm not sure why...  They are cheap steels, costing around $22 to $25 USD here in the USA. I saw one on amazon the other day for $22 plus shipping. Mine works absolutely great on my Sabatier carbons.

So I think you would be smart to find a smooth polished one without the course grooves. Although I am no expert, it is my understanding that the ceramic hones actually abrade the edge a bit whereas the smooth steel will just re-align the edge... so you won't have to sharpen as often. Good luck in your decisions!


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## alexane

Thank you all for your suggestions.

After some thought I have decided to go for the Fujiwara FKM 210mm (already placed the order) for some reason I think I will be happier with the one piece steel rather than the VG10 "sandwich".
About the size suggestion, although the difference of the 240mm is just about an inch I never felt that my old 8" knives were short for what I do so I'll stay in that size for now.


> After reading others did this, I sanded my down with 125 grit sandpaper, progressing down to 400 grit, the wet/dry stuff.


I haven't thought of that , it is a great idea to smooth any aggressive bumps of the rod although I intend to buy a ceramic version when I can locate one that I like.

Can someone please explain what are the advantages or disadvantaged of a 70/30 edge vs a 50/50 edge? (the knife I ordered says "*Double Bevel Edge 70/30*")

Also please suggest the recommended angle I should use for sharpening , if the original angle is 11 degree do I work at that angle or go for 15 or 20 degree.
I have read some threads where the suggested sharpening was with the spine just a coin higher that the stone, but that is extremely low like 3-4 degree, for a 44mm height of the blade the 11 degree is about 11mm distance for the spine.

I have also started considering a waterstone (a budget two sided one for now), what do you think about http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wh...761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3376f593e1
I know it is not too big and I read some things against two sided stones but it should be a definite upgrade from the DMT diamond I have.

It is a Suehiro1000/3000 , would I be able to sharpen the knife with it to get good results or the results will be mediocre ?

Thank you

Alex


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## alexane

5 hours and still waiting for my moderated post to appear in the thread /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


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## alexane

> Originally Posted by *alexane*
> 
> I have also started considering a waterstone (a budget two sided one for now), what do you think about http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wh...761?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3376f593e1
> 
> I know it is not too big and I read some things against two sided stones but it should be a definite upgrade from the DMT diamond I have.
> 
> It is a Suehiro1000/3000 , would I be able to sharpen the knife with it to get good results or the results will be mediocre ?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Alex


Can you please advice me on this.

I have searched the forum and found the stones mentioned in a couple of posts, I think they are not considered high quality stones and the grid is overrated but on the other hand I'm at the point where I don't want to spend $150 to buy expensive ones.

The above 1000/3000 stone will cost about $32 , for a similar amount I can get other stones with a single grade (I have searched for 1000 grit unless you suggest something different) which I suppose are of better quality (and usually bigger size too).

The question is if a single grid stone like
[h1]*Japanese waterstone King K-45 #1000 toishi ICE BEAR*[/h1][h1]*{Magic Stone}Sharpening Sharpener Waterstone Whetstone #1000 Japan With Stand*[/h1]
[h4]*{NIKKEN}Sunstone Sharpening Sharpener Waterstone Whetstone #1000 Made in Japan*[/h4]

would give better results than the Suehiro combination stone and is so which one of the three.

I'm not looking for perfection, just something that will make my knife purchase (Fujiwara FKM) worthwhile keeping it sharp enough to enjoy it.

Thank you

Alex


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## betowess

I'll give it a crack. I think those two (double sided 1000/3000) will be OK, as the Fujiwara should be fairly sharp out of the box. My Edge Pro essential basic set up came with three shapton glass stones which were said to be the most popular... a 500 grit, a 1000 grit, and a polishing 4000 grit. That 1000 of yours should give you some tooth, which should be good for kitchen cutting. All these different stones have different ratings, but my 500 is suppose to be about 30 microns (kind of a lightly course, medium/fine) the 1000 is 14.7 microns (a fine grit), and the 4000 about 3.7 microns which is an extra extra fine (polishing). I know I can cut paper easy with the 500 grit stone...Caveat, I'm a newbie researching all this so I'm no expert.

Hope this helps...


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## alexane

I found another double stone which is in a good price , *Japanese waterstone whetstone sharpening stone Naniwa #400/1200* and the size is bigger 178mm L x 50mm W x 30mm H (7" L x 2" W x 1.2" H) so this is an option too.

But I don't know how usable the 400 grid is for casual sharpening , I mean maybe it is too aggressive and only useful to change an angle or something.

Alex


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## franzb69

get a king 1k/6k (or somewhere in that range) and you'll be fine with that.


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## betowess

FWIW, my brand new Fujiwara was really sharp out of the box, so you won't need to do any profiling. I think starting at a 1K and another polish, like the last poster said, will do you fine. Unless you want to work on some of your current knives. But my FKM seems like it had a 70/30 right hand, and its nice and sharp. Hope this helps...


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## betowess

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif Sorry dbl post.


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## alexane

Well, I don't intent to start messing with the knife is soon as I receive it but since the DMT diamond sharpeners are not a good match for the Fujiwara knife I want to get a water stone and start getting the feel for it (with my old knives) before I need to use it for the new knife.

The king 1000/6000 is a very good stone but costs about $52 to buy it including shipping so it is kind of high for now.

I'm currently between the
Suehiro1000/3000 $31 130mm x 40mm x 27mm)
 and the
King 1000  $28  (176mm x 52mm x 15mm)

and I lean towards the king 1000 which should be a better "quality" stone (and bigger) and polish the knife (if needed) using my Belgian Blue stone (it is not a big size but will do) which is about 5000 until I buy a proper polishing stone King 6000.

The other option that I was seriously thinking was the Naniwa #400/1200 $38 but I strongly doubt that the brand that the seller mentions is correct because I don't see the Naniwa logo (lobster with a V ) anywhere on the package or stone and I see a "water area" brand, in addition there is no 400/1200 combination model according to the Naniwa website.

Alex


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## franzb69

3k finish is quite a good level finish for most home use. heck, even 1k is pretty good for many.

but when you hit that wall and you know that your knife can get sharper, you'll wanna get that 5-6k.


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## betowess

alexane said:


> I'm currently between the
> Suehiro1000/3000 $31 130mm x 40mm x 27mm)
> and the
> King 1000 $28 (176mm x 52mm x 15mm)
> 
> and I lean towards the king 1000 which should be a better "quality" stone (and bigger) and polish the knife (if needed) using my Belgian Blue stone (it is not a big size but will do) which is about 5000 until I buy a proper polishing stone King 6000.
> 
> Alex


Maybe just get the 1000 grit larger stone for now, and keep using your DMT to polish until you can afford the 4-6K stone. There is no problem with using a DMT, other than they don't last as long as advertised I believe, after reading a quote from the inventor of the Edge Pro, Ben Dale on a knife forum. His reason being that a knife's steel pulls some of the diamond crystals off each swipe, and the Edge Pro inventor's issue was that for pro sharpeners doing many knifes a day, a DMT wouldn't "last through lunch". And that is worse with the course grit DMTs, so the fine/polishing one will be fine for a while. Just food for thought here...


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## knifesavers

Benuser said:


> IIRC, Suehiro used to sell them in a somewhat different form, as Cerax, in Europe a few years ago. The 1k was pretty soft, chalky and slow, the 3k creamy, not the easiest, both with a great feed back. I prefer harder stones, but these were not bad at all. Small stones are very easy to keep flat, and the relative softness helps in acquiring a good technique.


I don't think the linked Suehiro is the same as the Cerax. Suehiro makes lots of stuff. I have a 1K/3K of theirs and although soft and dish pretty hard they are a fine choice at that price point. Let that 3K get real muddy and that should suffice for home use.

The 3K leaves a finish along the lines of my Belgian blue.

Jim


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## alexane

Betowess said:


> Maybe just get the 1000 grit larger stone for now, and keep using your DMT to polish until you can afford the 4-6K stone. There is no problem with using a DMT, other than they don't last as long as advertised I believe, after reading a quote from the inventor of the Edge Pro, Ben Dale on a knife forum. His reason being that a knife's steel pulls some of the diamond crystals off each swipe, and the Edge Pro inventor's issue was that for pro sharpeners doing many knifes a day, a DMT wouldn't "last through lunch". And that is worse with the course grit DMTs, so the fine/polishing one will be fine for a while. Just food for thought here...


My DMT will not do for polishing because the ones I have are

[h4]BLUE (C) Diamond - Coarse[/h4]
Quickly sharpen a neglected edge (325 mesh, 45 micron)
[h4]RED (F) Diamond - Fine[/h4]
Put a keen edge on a maintained tool (600 mesh, 25 micron)
[h4]GREEN (E) Diamond - Extra Fine[/h4]
Sharpen to a razor edge (1200 mesh, 9 micron)
I'm using them for the home knives so wear will not probably not be a problem because they are used infrequently (maybe every two months ).

The one I mentioned for sharpening is a Belgian blue stone which is a water stone of some kind and has a grit of 4000-6000.

If the king 1000 is similar to my DMT1200 then it will be fine even as a final stone with no further polish.

Usually too much polish makes the edge loose the grip which I like when cutting things like tomatoes.

Alex


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## betowess

I agree, the 1000 probably will do you well. However, I my shapton 1000 grit stone is around 15 microns, and a  DMT green is a bit finer at 9 micron. But whatever cuts well, especially for foods like tomatoes. Like I said, I can cut paper pretty easily with a 500 grit.


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## alexane

KnifeSavers said:


> I don't think the linked Suehiro is the same as the Cerax. Suehiro makes lots of stuff. I have a 1K/3K of theirs and although soft and dish pretty hard they are a fine choice at that price point. Let that 3K get real muddy and that should suffice for home use.
> 
> Jim


I've seen the Cerax 1K/3K , they were sold at a much higher price than the ones I mention (and were bigger size I think).

So the 1K/3K you have is the Cerax and not the pictured Suehiro (link is post #12 , I don't repost it to avoid any moderation) ?

Alex


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## knifesavers

I bought a kit at Japanese Knife Imports and I believe it is the Suehiro SKG-34 and I don't think it is the Cerax. Jon would know if they were.

I like it and may add a Cerax 6K to the rockpile but while Suehiro makes lots of things there are only twos and fews available without ordering from Japan. Tools From Japan has a large selection of Suehiros.

Jim


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## boar_d_laze

Not all grit numbering systems are the same.  So tossing around numbers like 400 without identifying the system is more or less meaningless. 

Japanese water stones are numbered according to the JIS system.  In that system, 400# is a very coarse grit, should only be used to profile and/or repair, and not for ordinary maintenance. 

All combination water stones have at least some drawbacks; but their nature they're something of a compromise compared to regular, non-combination stones.  That's not to say that there aren't plenty of good combination stones out there, and that they don't represent a lot of value. 

The best combination stones for beginners have a medium/coarse side (around 1000# JIS) to begin the process of ordinary sharpening, and a medium or medium-fine side (3000# or higher) to finish it. 

There is no ideal grit for a kitchen knife.  1000 JIS is good for some things and not so good for others.  A 1000 finish is fairly coarse, which gives it a lot of bite, and some people find that useful for some tasks.  However, bite also translates as micro-serration; and the tiny teeth break very easily with impact (and steeling), so a 1000# will require lots of frequent sharpening. 

I think the 3000 - 6000 range is probably right for most chef's knives, but a lot depends on the knife's "scratch hardness."  I polish those of my knives which are hard enough to hold it to 8K JIS on bench stones, or to 1/2u CBN when stropping.  I finish my softer knives (carbon Sabatiers, Forschners, etc.) with a "Surgical Black" Arkansas which would translate to around 4000JIS if there were a valid translation -- but there isn't.  

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## alexane

I read Corin section for the water stones and it say that for the King stones  only the low/medium grids like 1000 or lower should be soaked in water but not the 4000 or 6000 etc (I assumes this is true for others fine grade stones too).

Assuming that this is the case buying a combination king stone 1000/6000 means that I save to soak only half the stone in water and I find it inconvenient so I have decided to buy separate stones.

I'm definitely buying the King K-45 #1000 and as a second stone I think the #6000 will be too refined so I'm towards the KING STONE S-45 Finish grained #4000.
Depending on the combined shipping deal I can get I will either buy the #1000 now and the #4000 later or place an order for both at the same time.

Alex


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## knifesavers

alexane said:


> I read Corin section for the water stones and it say that for the King stones only the low/medium grids like 1000 or lower should be soaked in water but not the 4000 or 6000 etc (I assumes this is true for others fine grade stones too).
> 
> Assuming that this is the case buying a combination king stone 1000/6000 means that I save to soak only half the stone in water and I find it inconvenient so I have decided to buy separate stones.
> 
> Alex


Depends on the maker but I toss a King 6K into water on Friday, along with my Gesshin 220, 400, 2K, 4K and Suehiro 1K/3K combo and use them until Sunday with no issues.

Generally high grit polishing stones are usually not soakers. My current quest is for an 8X3" 6-8K stone that can soak. The King is fine but a very narrow stone compared to the others.

Jim


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## alexane

KnifeSavers said:


> Depends on the maker but I toss a King 6K into water on Friday, along with my Gesshin 220, 400, 2K, 4K and Suehiro 1K/3K combo and use them until Sunday with no issues.
> 
> Jim


This is a quote of what I read in Korin


> Preparation Wet all King fine stones before use.
> 
> Caution
> 
> Please do not soak finishing stones (#3000 and above). Soaking a finishing stone will result in the stone cracking and breaking.
> Returning a stone into a box while still wet or damp will result in molding and decreasing quality.
> For double sided stone, please only soak the medium stone side (#1000). Failure to do so will result in the stone splitting and or breaking.


I haven't seen this mentioned before in any of the sharpening videos in youtube except from one video of the sharpener person of Korin shop which also does the same suggestion).

Alex


----------



## kitchenriddles

Being a professional Sharpener, in my opinion the only way to go is Japanese Whetstones. They do require some maintenance, but I feel that is part of the relationship one has with the tools they use.


----------



## alexane

kitchenriddles said:


> Being a professional Sharpener, in my opinion the only way to go is Japanese Whetstones. They do require some maintenance, but I feel that is part of the relationship one has with the tools they use.


Considering the 1000 grid as a standard in a two stone configuration which polishing grid would you recommend a 4000 or a 6000?

Alex


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## boar_d_laze

Alex,

I know you're trying to make sense of things, unfortunately many things which seem meaningful -- especially because they're expressed in numbers -- actually aren't.

In the greater scheme of things there _probably_ won't be much difference between 4K and a 6K finishes. Your best choice of combination stones is more about size, speed, "feel," maintenance issues, and overall quality of the stone than it is about a particular finishing grit.

Manufacturers' nominal grit numbers usually don't mean enough to confidently predict whether there will an actual difference between one maker's 4K and another's 6K, much less what the difference will be. If there were a discernible difference which accorded to higher grit numbers meaning finer polish, I'd say get the 6K if you intend that to be the finest stone in your series, and get the 4K if you plan to use an ultra fine polishing stone such as an 8K for your final stage. But -- not to beat a dead horse -- there probably won't be much difference.

Bear in mind that Korin's advice is based on rules which aren't what you'd call universally recognized. Some things they say are golden, but you can't trust everything.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## boar_d_laze

Leaving a high-grit King in the bucket might be working for you, but it's not recommended.  Most people find that the clay binder gets too soft, won't dry properly, and eventually starts to crumble.

If you want to leave an  ultra-fine stone soaking indefinitely your best bet is probably one of the Shapton GS (glass stones).  I know you think they're too expensive for your purposes, but it's my understanding they hold up to nearly indefinite soaking.  You might want to shoot Shapton US an email and ask.  I don't care for them myself, but you're not me and you do.  You might as well buy what you want now, because you'll be unhappy until you do. 

From other communications it's clear that an ultra-fine which won't take indefinite soaking is bugging the heck out of you, and I hope you find a solution which suits.  On the other hand you might be making more of it than it is.  Why make an issue of transporting all of your stones in the bucket? Why not just carry an ultra-fine separately and use it as the "splash and go" it was intended to be?

In my four stone progression, the Beston 500 and Bester 1200 both require extensive soaking, while the Chosera 3000 benefits from 5 - 10 minutes, and Gesshin 8000 is strictly splash and go.  Handling the respective stones in whatever way is best for each one is not confusing, time consuming, or difficult; and a lot less onerous than flattening. 

BDL


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## knifesavers

I know it is not recommended and have a crumbled polishing stone as expensive proof that too much water can destroy them.

I was told a King 6K could endure soaking and so far it has. Probably a stone that does embody the traits I want doesn't exist but if one does, I want it

I do have a Shapton GS and I don't really like it for knives

Jon has a 1K/6K combo that he says can stored in water and next trip to JKI I'll give it a whirl.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...ium-stones/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone.html

Jim


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## betowess

Well that's two on this thread that don't care for Shapton glass stones. Just curious, why you guys prefer others. Are they too hard to feel the progress, or what? thx


----------



## boar_d_laze

For a long time, my water stone kit was mostly Shapton Pro (up to the 5K). While I've moved on to bigger and better things, I still have some affection for the Pros despite all their idiosyncracies.

A few years ago the GS hit the knife world like a bomb and became the stones du jour. At the time, I was between waterstone kits and had a friend who was a sharpening fool and used to buy every stone which came out and since he had hundreds, would let me borrow whatever, which allowed me to try (what was then) the entire GS series. Sadly, I never cared for them -- at least not compared to a few other stones. My next kit was all Naniwa SS, excepting a Kitayama for finishing/polishing.

What I don't like about Shapton GS:

Don't care for the tactile feedback, it's too hard and too rough especially on stainless;
Too fragile, they break very easily and expensively if (or in my case, "when") dropped;
Difficult to flatten. Forget about drywall screen or an inexpensive ceramic flattener -- they take forever unless you use a diamond plate or something like the ridiculously expensive Shapton flattening system;
I can get better edges with less trouble using other stones;
From 1K all the way up to the 16K and 30K stones, Shapton GS edges are "more shine than sharp;"

The 30K stone is too fine to be practical; and
The ultra-fine 16K and 30K polishing stones are both overpriced relative to other stones which give better finish, Naniwa Pure White and Kitayama by way of a couple of examples.
However, let's not lose all perspective. Obviously this is just my opinion. It's not a judgement on anyone who likes GS, it just means I don't care for GS compared to other stones. Clearly, they belong in the class of "very good" stones, and are -- up to the very fine grits -- competitively priced with stones of similar quality. My responses here are limited to what I don't like about them, because that was the question. There are some things which the GS does extremely well. For instance, they're fast, very consistent, have reasonable "reach" (at least compared to old-fashioned clay binders like Kings), and leave a very nice shine.

Finally, _mutatis mutandi_; I've moved on from the Naniwa SS.

BDL


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## alexane

I have received the Fujiwara today.

This is my first encounter with a quality knife even if it is considered a budget one and I'm quite amazed by how light and thin the blade is and of course the sharpness!

I thought that my previous knifes were sharp but obviously I had no idea of what sharp means, yes my knives could slice a paper and they could shave arm hair but there is sharp and there is *SHARP*.

Now I will need some advice about the proper sharpening of the knife (I don't intend to do it right now but need to learn about it)

The blade is 70/30 asymmetric and I tried to search the proper sharpening method for it but I'm kind of confused.
I can see the blade having a V shape tip with a small length in the 30 side and a longer one in the 70 side , also according to the angle that the edge bites when I try to slide it over a paper the 30 side seems to be in a higher angle than the 70 side.

According to a video I saw sharpening should start at the 30 side first with a higher angle and then continue to the 70 side with a lower angle, is that correct?
Also I read that the 3/7 ratio should be maintained in the number of strokes too (for each 3 strokes in the 30 side I should stroke 7 times the 70 side), is this correct?

The different angle makes kind of sense due to the asymmetry but the 3/7 stroke ratio is kind of confusing.

What I describe basically refers to this video 




By the way is there a benefit of the 70/30 compared to 50/50 of it is just a matter of style ?

Alex


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## boar_d_laze

*IGNORE* the Korin sharpening videos. Compared to simple visual observation (especially using The Magic Marker Trick) stroke counting is not only inherently inaccurate but it's much more so for a beginning sharpener who gets lots of high and low spots, and uses wide variations in pressure. Also, _The Coin Trick_ is an extremely poor method for establishing angles. If you have any feeling for geometry you can probably puzzle this out for yourself. If not, ask.

*READ* _this thread_ with extra attention to posts 4, 7, 10 and 14. *READ* _this thread_ extra with attention to posts 4, 6, 8 and 15. Regarding the second thread (the one with "reprofiling" in its title) let me be clear that I'm recommending it to help you understand some of the sharpening possibilities and am not suggesting that you change the profile of your new knife or you use a multi bevel of any sort.

I _very strongly recommend_ that you *READ* the articles and *WATCH* the videos I recommended in the first thread (the one with "Sabatiers" in its title). They are far more helpful to understanding the sharpening process and contain much better and more usable sharpening advice than the Korin series. Nothing against Korin, mind you.

Since the FKM ships sharp, there's no hurry to get it on the stones and start sharpening. This is especially true since its likely your first efforts will be more counter-productive than not.

Just in the way of basic sharpening education, it's important that you understand that when it comes to expressed ratios of asymmetry (like 70/30), they are -- each and every one -- IMPRECISE. What those numbers mean as a practical matter is that the right side bevel is about twice as wide as the left side bevel. The reality of sharpening and maintaining asymmetry is that "about twice as wide" is as close as you're going to get and no amount of stroke counting will make 70/30 or 60/40 more accurate than ~2:1.

Similarly when we're talking about freehand sharpening, and talk about specific angles -- like 15* for instance -- our actual sharpening is far less precise than our angle holding. The only way to get truly precise angles is to use fairly sophisticated tools; which, expressly does not refer to simple devices like angle guides or angle clamps, while it specifically includes but is not limited to the combination of an Edge Pro, a stop collet, and an angle finding cube.

When you do need to sharpen your new knife, the best profile to start sharpening (unless you're left handed) is the one with which it shipped. That is _15* on both sides, with ~2:1 (60/40 - 70/30) right handed asymmetry_.

BDL


----------



## alexane

Thank you for the fast reply, I'll read the posts you refer to and come back if I have questions.

I don't intent to touch the new knife until there is a need to do so (which will take a while) but the stones I bought will arrive soon and I have to start practicing on them with my other knifes which are are 50/50 or so but maybe I will mess with one of them and try to make it a 60/40 or 70/30 (with a coarse DMT) just to have a base for exercise (I am right handed).

So basically I have to get used to water stones as well as asymmetric edges.

Alex


----------



## pushcut

Mike9 said:


> Hey - you want a nice Forgecraft 10" Wa-conversion let me know - I have a couple I'm ready to part with.


Mike9,

I am curious about these knives. Could you post or pm pictures and prices?


----------



## betowess

Hey Alex, I don't know if these two knives have the same asymmetric ratio, as I believe you got your new Fujiwara FKM 210mm Gyuto and I got the similar 180mm FKM Santoku, but I read somewhere else that the assymetric bevel of the FKM  is more like a 80/20 righthand. And that looks/sounds about right, if not even an 85/15 or more on my FKM Santoku, with such a very tiny bevel on the left side. Mine is also quite sharp, though I know I can get it even more. I may eventually grind the ratio closer to a 60/40 or so, so I can steel it with my F Dick polished steel, or possibly hone it with a new ceramic rod I bought.

Or I may just keep it with the hard right hand ratio with which it  arrived. I'm not in a hurry, since I am not using it professionally and it gets light use at home, with lots of other knives sharing the duty...

Perhaps if you know these knives bevel ratios BDL, you could pipe in (or anyone else). I asked Mark at CKTG about the angle ratio, but he just said "yes it was asymmetric and 15* sounded about right", which I already could tell - not that its a big deal. I was just curious if it was 80/20 or what it was...


----------



## alexane

> Hey Alex, I don't know if these two knives have the same asymmetric ratio, as I believe you got your new Fujiwara FKM 210mm Gyuto and I got the similar 180mm FKM Santoku, but I read somewhere else that the assymetric bevel of the FKM is more like a 80/20 righthand


Maybe it is, the "30 " side is very narrow and the "70" quite wide and I don't think the relation is close to 3/7 either.

I will try to post a closeup couple of pictures tomorrow.

When I did a quick test trying to see the angle that the edge bites on a flat piece of A4 paper I got a height of about 5 and 7 cent coins at the spine which according to the table http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63443/bevels-double-bevels-angles-im-confused#post_334526 is about 13 and 15 degree for the "70" and "30" sides.

I think this ratio will change anyway when we try to sharpen the knife , it is more about the edge than the specific ratio so I'm sure that as soon as the proper edge is achieved we 'll stop sharpening even if the ratio seems changed.

Alex


----------



## boar_d_laze

Fujiwara's ratios of asymmetry are relatively inconsistent as a result of how they actually sharpen. They use a slack belt, sharpen until they draw a burr on the right side, turn the knife over, sharpen the burr away, and that's pretty much how the knives are profiled. Don't make too much of 85/15, 80/20, 70/30, or 60/40. It comes out the way it comes out.

You get to exercise a little more control though. Start sharpening the knife on the face you favor; turn the knife over when you get a burr; continue sharpening and turning the knife every time you make the burr flip until you can make the burr flip with a single soft stroke of the knife on the stone; deburr and move on to the next finer stone. If you always start with the same face, you'll end up with an asymmetry of around 2:1, which will give you most of the benefits of asymmetry without impacting maintenance too much.

The _Coin Trick_ only works if you place the coins at some point where the width of the blade from spine to edge is the same from time to time and from knife to knife. Since that's largely impractical, so is the_ Coin Trick_. I strongly urge you to find a better way.

BDL


----------



## rick alan

On soft knives I used a 1K diamond stone followed by an Arkansas for many years and it worked fine.  Diamond cuts fast and  in "typical" home use a 6" stone will last you the rest of your life ad then some.  In your place I'd put all the money into the 8K Geshin BDL raves about.  I would personally would never buy a "soft" waterstone again, at any price, but I find the one I have more tolerable if only soaked 5 minutes.

Rick


----------



## alexane

I have compared the Fujiwara FKM (bottom in the pic) to a cheap knife I own (top side in the pic) that was sharpened on a DMT extra fine (1200).

My noname was polished using alternating passes of "slicing the stone in an arc motion" from toe to tip , I personally find this the most convenient way to finish in each grid and getting rid of the burr and wire edge (I mean this kind of motion 



 ).

In general I use a mix or five o clock knife holding angle with up/down strokes to sharpen individual sections of the edge and/or slicing motion but in both cases up the point where I raise a burr to proceed to the other side rather than just counting.

The Fujiwara (70 side shown) seems quite scratchy compared to the DMT 1200 grit (maybe the edge angle plays a part too in the way it looks) so it would probably benefit (for whoever feels the need to mess with his knife) from a polishing water stone.





  








Fujiwara_vs_noname1.jpg




__
alexane


__
Mar 6, 2013








click the original image at the lower right side in order to few the high resolution pic or open in a new tab

Alex

P.S. the scratches you see in the side of the noname is from when I thought that the knife should be laid flat on the stone.

I saw it in a video of an experienced sharpener but the difference was that I tried it in a diamond stone (it was a cheap on one too) instead of a fine water stone


----------



## betowess

boar_d_laze said:


> Fujiwara's ratios of asymmetry are relatively inconsistent as a result of how they actually sharpen. They use a slack belt, sharpen until they draw a burr on the right side, turn the knife over, sharpen the burr away, and that's pretty much how the knives are profiled. Don't make too much of 85/15, 80/20, 70/30, or 60/40. It comes out the way it comes out.
> 
> You get to exercise a little more control though. Start sharpening the knife on the face you favor; turn the knife over when you get a burr; continue sharpening and turning the knife every time you make the burr flip until you can make the burr flip with a single soft stroke of the knife on the stone; deburr and move on to the next finer stone. If you always start with the same face, you'll end up with an asymmetry of around 2:1, which will give you most of the benefits of asymmetry without impacting maintenance too much.
> 
> The _Coin Trick_ only works if you place the coins at some point where the width of the blade from spine to edge is the same from time to time and from knife to knife. Since that's largely impractical, so is the_ Coin Trick_. I strongly urge you to find a better way.
> 
> BDL


Thanks BDL. You're a trove of info for all of us.


----------



## alexane

An update on the stones I bought.

I got a Combination Stone, Sun Tiger[emoji]174[/emoji], Grit 1000/6000 (150 x 50 x 25 mm) and a Combination Stone Naniwa[emoji]174[/emoji], Grit 1000/3000 (175 x 55 x 25 mm.), the price was not high so I decided to try them both.

The Naniwa stone belongs to the economical home series (shown http://saas.startialab.com/acti_books/1045173817/7825/_SWF_Window.html?mode=1062 ) [it is the QA-124]

The King stone is much softer and cuts quite fast because it reveals new abrasive, even in the 6000 the stone seems to be removing metal fast enough and doesn't get clogged .
The Naniwa stone is slower so the 1000/3000 grits feels smoother and of a higher grit, also the 3000 seems to get clogged quite fast and needs to be rubbed with a diamond stone (the flattener I use) to get the black metal of the stone.

So far I have only used the stones with my soft knifes (Stellar James Martin,Cuisinart, Burghoff etc) so what I describe is based on that.

The 3000 seems to consistently give me better edge with these knives that the 6000 stone and I wonder if this is normal for the softer steel knives and only my Fujiwara will be able to take advantage of the 6000 stone.

The 6000 seems to be removing metal quite fast so instead of polishing the edge of the soft knives is seems to be eating them away giving them sharpness but because the 3000 stone is slower it feels much smoother and is able to achieve a better edge.

Also a microbevel (or just a couple of strokes for deburring) seems to work better in the 3000 stone because when I try the higher angle on the edge the 6000 even with a light touch I seems to give worse results than the 3000.

Has anyone tried these stones or has experience with the 6000 on a soft knife?

Alex


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## boar_d_laze

"Soft" and "tough" aren't necessarily the same things. As it happens though, your "soft" knives are made from alloys too tough for water stones to really work their magic. They'll work okay, but you won't get the best out of them. I've gone back and forth between water and oil stones over the years for my tough alloy knives, and currently prefer oil stones, partly for their ease of maintenance and partly because I like the edge quality I get from an Arkansas. But run to the store and buy what I like. Your new water stones will certainly sharpen your knives almost as well.

The black stuff on the Naniwa does not mean the stone is clogging. It's mostly a mix of swarf from your knife and "mud"and abrasive from the stone, called "slurry." The combination of working the stone with the knife edge and the water on the stone, break up the substrate and bring a fresh supply of friable abrasives. In other words, slurry is your friend. The slurry is what does and should do the work.

If there's so much swarf in the slurry that it's actually scratching the knife face above the edge-bevel, just rinse it off.

When you're done with your stones, rinse them if you can't bear to look at the discoloration. Otherwise, leave them alone. Don't flatten them with your diamond plate unless they need flattening.

Both stones make mud so easily on all four sides that the first few strokes of sharpening will get a slurry going. You don't need to use your diamond plate, a nagura, or anything else.

"Homestone" is Naniwa's bottom line, Sun Tiger is Matsunaga's. As you'd expect, their quality is low.

I don't know where you're buying your stones, but you might want to check out the sharpening page on the Dieter Schmid website. They have a reasonable choice of stones and most of their information is pretty good.

BDL


----------



## alexane

> As it happens though, your "soft" knives are made from alloys too tough for water stones to really work their magic.


My cheap knives are supposed to have softer metals than the Japan knife so I'm not sure what "alloys too tough for water stones" means, does this mean that waterstone have a hard time abrading soft metal ?

So does this mean that I'm better off using my DMT with these "soft" knifes?


> "Homestone" is Naniwa's bottom line, Sun Tiger is Matsunaga's. As you'd expect, their quality is low.


Does this mean that King are better quality than the Sun tiger ?

I thought that this was just an alternative name or something for the European market.

Actually I bought them from Germany from http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/Banksteine-3594_4934.htm?lang=en , they seem to have a big collection of stones and the shipping cost was lower (10 euro flat rate)

I got http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/pro...stein-Sun-Tiger-Koernung-10006000.htm?lang=en

and http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/pro...erfstein-Naniwa-Koernung-10003000.htm?lang=en


> The black stuff on the Naniwa does not mean the stone is clogging. It's mostly a mix of swarf from your knife and "mud"and abrasive from the stone, called "slurry."


I didn't mean the slurry, this black layer on the stone 3000 is like in the pores of the stone , it can't be washed away, it can only be removed by another stone

Alex


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## alexane

> I didn't mean the slurry, this black layer on the stone 3000 is like in the pores of the stone , it can't be washed away, it can only be removed by another stone


You can kind of see it in these image, this is from a washed stone, it doesn't go off no matter how much you rub bu hand (unlike the king 6000 which gets cleared quite easily by hand), I need to rum it with my DMT to clear.

I think these areas get clogged , the more I use the 3000 side the more I get this color and less abrasion.

This doesn't happen in the 1000 side (Naniwa) or happens in a very small degree.





  








IMG_20130317_183714.jpg




__
alexane


__
Mar 17, 2013








It is shown better in the next image against the light when it shines





  








IMG_20130317_183823.jpg




__
alexane


__
Mar 17, 2013








(sorry for the image quality, they are from my mobile)

Alex


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## boar_d_laze

That shouldn't be happening in patches where the middle of the stone is a different density than the outside.  If you hadn't already "dressed" the stones several times with your diamond plate I'd guess that there was some coating left -- but you have.  Naniwa's "Homestone" line is so cheap in all senses of the word, manufacturing defects shouldn't come as too much of a surprise -- which is not an excuse for Naniwa or the seller.  You might want to communicate with the retailer and ask them if you can get a replacement or a store credit. 

I can't tell from your pictures if you've biased the edges of your stones or not.  If not, you should. 

You also asked for about King v. Sun Tiger.  Kings come in several quality levels, some are very good, some are less so; and that makes comparison difficult.  On top of that I don't know that much about Kings or Ice Bears (another Matsunaga clay-binder series), and even less about Sun Tiger. 

BDL


----------



## alexane

I don't think the stone is defective , as I use the stone I get the gray area all over the stone , it's just that the previous image was after some curved finishing strokes that created this visual (or maybe the flatness wasn't good too).

This is a better representation of how the stone looks with up/down strokes





  








IMG_20130318_181727.jpg




__
alexane


__
Mar 18, 2013








I did use the diamond stone a couple of times but it was until I got the gray metal off the stone rather than flattening it.

I though that they come flattened from the factory but I was probably wrong so I used a pencil to draw lines all over the stone and then used the diamond until it goes away and it showed that none of the four sides were flat (by the way that the pencil strokes faded).

It has a kind of W shape (subtle) with the long sides and center higher than the mid areas.

On the other hand all the knives I sharpened have a thick bolster and the majority of them are thicker and not sharpened much from the factory at the edge heel near the bolster so that part probably eats the stone faster (although I have tried to even that part of the blade with the diamond stones).

That being said I barely get a slurry , at least one that has the color of the stone (like the yellow creamy substance I get when I use the diamond stone on it or the one of the softer King), I basically get a gray colored water which means that there is abrasion but not that colored paste like in the king stone.

Maybe it is just the way this harder (cheap) stone works.

About the stone sides I do bias them to 45 degree and then use the diamond plate on the top.

I'll try to experiment some more and come back if I have more questions.

Thank you for your time.

Alex


----------



## knifesavers

Are you soaking them at least the time suggested on the site?

The one just may be like some Besters that need to soak a long time or it isn't a real muddy stone like a King.Which stone and grit side is that anyhow?

Jim


----------



## alexane

They say soaking for about 15 minutes but I have left them for a few hours with no difference in the described behaviour.

Basically the stones do work since I have sharpened several knives on them but especially the 3000 side seems slow cutting (much worse that the 6000 king) which is currently a good thing with the soft knives since I can get a better polish but I have no idea if they will work with the Japanese knife.


> Which stone and grit side is that anyhow?


It is a 1000/3000 , I have posted a link in post #52

According to the description they are slow cutting "The stones stay flat but offer little abrasion"

Alex


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## alexane

I got a Tojiro DP petty and I see a line about 3mm above the tip which is the area where the chrome covers the VG10.

Since the chrome stainless steel is there to prevent rust does this mean that the exposed vg10 of the tip is prone to corrosion/rust and needs special attention (apart from hand wash and drying)?





  








IMG_4002_vg10-chrome_line.jpg




__
alexane


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Apr 1, 2013








By the way , I like DIY so I used some old printer parts and made a construction similar to edge pro to use it with my older knifes to re-profile them since after a few years of experiments on them the profile is all over the place and it is not very easy to re-profile them free handed.

I'm using it with the small DMTs I have (4" x 7/8" ) which are perfect for the job.

It needs a couple of improvements but I have already re-profiled a couple of knives to 20 degree and the results were extremely good.

I polish all the knives by hand with a waterstone after using the 600 and 1200 grid DMT with the above construction, it is quite easy to keep a constant angle with a constant angle profiled knife since you get a great feedback or the proper angle while polishing and getting rid of the burr.

The knife base is 11cm long and gives 0.5 degree error in the center compared to the two sides (for me this is negligible, the base it tilted to make that error symmetric.





  








IMG_4003_diy_profiler.jpg




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alexane


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Apr 1, 2013








Alex


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## alexane

I thought the stainless steel usage was related to corrosion but apparently I has wrong.

Actually I went back and read the description and it says "DP cobalt clad series is made of the cored rust-resistant high carbon cobalt alloy sandwiched with 13 chrome stainless steel"

Thank you for clearing that issue.

Alex


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## alexane

After using the stones for a while I would say for any future readers of this thread avoid the Naniwa Combination Stone 1000 / 3000 , the stone is too hard and doest cut well, it barely creates any mud, seems to be a bad quality.

I'm quite happy with the King 1000/6000 (I got the small size 150 x 50 x 25 mm) but I did try another alternative of a bigger size which is the Suehiro new cerax 1000 / 3000 (#3000 - 186mm x 63mm x 13mm, #1000 - 186mm x 63mm x 15mm) , it has a silky quality but cuts fast and is not as soft as the king, I think it a great value and I prefer it over the king stone.

Now I'm thinking of a coarse stone and I'm between two options,

Suehiro 'New Cerax' ceramic stone, medium size. #400 grit
Suehiro 'Cerax' ceramic stone, #320 grit
The price is almost identical but the 320 offers more stone for the money (205 x 73 x 23mm for the #320 vs 183mm x 63mm x 20mm for the #400), on the other hand the #400 has a nice base.

Anyway does anyone have experience with any of there of would recommend one or the other?

Also do you consider the #320 grit too coarse compared to the 400 of they are similar? (they will be followed by a #1000 stone).

This coarse stone will be used with my older non Japanese knives (even pocket knives) that need some thinning and re-profiling since my new Japanese knives are is quite perfect condition and will be a few years probably before I need any coarse stone work on them (if any).

Also I'm thinking of buying a Suehiro 'Rika' #5000 finishing stone (206 x 73 x 23mm).

Currently I use the 6000 king so do you consider the Rika a better stone or the only benefit for me would be the bigger size of the stone?

Alex


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## boar_d_laze

The King 6000 and Suehiro Rika have a lot of similarities and a few differences. The Rika is a little more versatile in that it will act as a relatively fast 3K stone, until the mud is broken down and then will act like a 5K. The Rika produces a great deal more mud, wears quicker than the King, needs a bit more flattening, and has even more and better feedback.

The King is straightforward: It's a darn good, mud-binder 6K.

If you really want to improve performance, you'll want to investigate stones with resin or magnesia binders. But they do cost more, sometimes considerably more.

I don't know the coarse Suehiros at all.

Bottom line: I prefer the Rika, but... Unless you want that 3K/5K thing the Rika does, switching from it to the 6K King surface or _vice versa_ is more of a lateral move than an actual step up. However moving from a 150mm to a 210mm stone length is a BIG improvement. So, that's something you might want to think about.

BDL


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## alexane

boar_d_laze said:


> The King 6000 and Suehiro Rika have a lot of similarities and a few differences. The Rika is a little more versatile in that it will act as a relatively fast 3K stone, until the mud is broken down and then will act like a 5K. The Rika produces a great deal more mud, wears quicker than the King, needs a bit more flattening, and has even more and better feedback.
> 
> The King is straightforward: It's a darn good, mud-binder 6K.


I'm not sure I would like a stone that is even softer than the king and I'm more interested in the "5k operation mode" of the stone since I now have the new cerax 3000 to use between the 1000 and the finishing stone.

Maybe I should just stick for a while to the king 6000 and just buy the coarse stone for now.

Any suggestion in general between the 320 grit and 400 grit stones, do you think that a 320 grit is too coarse or it also depends on the brand of the stone?

Alex


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