# Genoise recipe.



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

After researching numerous genoise recipes, I notice that there are some differences among them. Although all recipes were for the same end result, the amount needed for each of the ingredients was never the same. 

1. 4 eggs

1/2 sugar

3/4 cup cake flour

7 TB butter

2. 4 eggs

   2/3 cup sugar

   1 1/2 cups flour

3. 4 eggs

    1 cup cake flour

    1/2 cup sugar

4.6 Eggs

   1 Cup sugar

   1 1/3 Flour

     There are others but you get the idea. 

As baking is supposed to be an exact art, I am curious as to why the recipes would not be more similar. For only one cake, the different amounts would have a greater impact, I would think. I'll be making as many different recipes as I can and taking notes but was wondering if you have any thoughts.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

I see right off the bat that 2 of your recipes call for cake flour as opposed to all purpose.

Recipe 1 has butter while the other three do not.

It looks like the dry to moist ratio is a result of the different flours perhaps.

Also, the recipe doesn't say what size eggs....that too, makes a difference.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

When the size egg is not specified use large as almost all recipes are written for that size.

About the differences in ingredients and amts the flour does have a lot to do with it.

There is a pretty good article about the different flours in post #5 of this link....
[thread="73266"]Flour [/thread]
Another explaination is the amount of bakers who like to futz around to make a product (cake, pastry whatever) their own.

Not unlike the tweaking of savory dishes some bakers want to have their "signature" products stand apart from the crowd.

Probably in order to author a cookbook down the line.

@chefwriter you will discover during your journey there are a lot of badly written recipes out there.

After all the trial and error it will be easier to know which to avoid as you go along.

mimi


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

An even better one http://www.life123.com/food/baking/baking-tips/a-quick-guide-to-using-different-types-of-flour.shtml

mimi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefwriter,

Hey chef, from what I know about genoise, it's sort of a blanket name for sponge that uses air to get the suspension. I have numerous formulations for traditional genoise. Of coarse the Italians take credit for it, from Genoa. Even the methods are different for bringing it up.

We still ribbon the eggs and sugar before folding for some and others not. The different procedures develop different crumbs.

I guess what I'm saying is that you have to find one that works for you. Then the exact science falls in in trying to achieve the same cake again and again. It's early, please excuse me if this does not make sense or it's been said before.


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

As I remember, a Génoise is a cake that has no leavening agents other than the air incorporated into eggs as per Panini and this reference:

http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/glossary/g/Genoise.htm

(adding butter is optional)

there is an interesting difference between the Wiki entries in French and English whereas in English a genoise is described as a sponge like cake but in French they refer it as a dry light airy biscuit (cookie/wafer) used to make layer cakes. In French they say that the eggs and sugar are beaten over a bain marie into a sabayon (french word) then flour is added to make a génoise. A bain marie or heating the eggs is no longer required with modern kitchen appliances but it would have been helpful in the XVIIIth century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoise

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Génoise_(cuisine)

although I did not find a reference that explains this in particular, I remember reading that the Génoise (a french word) was named because it resembles layered tile eavesdrops, an Italian architectural technique imported by Italian masons from Genoa to French Provence. I suspect this would be the origin of the word since most culinary technique names are originally French.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Génoise_(architecture)

very interesting question and it was fun researching this.

Luc H.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Thank you for all the replies. 

I'll begin experimenting. My end goal is to be able to whip up a cake on short notice now that the holidays are coming and genoise seems to be the answer. I'm happy to find I was correct in my belief that the differences are mostly preference in end product. As suggested, I will have my own preference when I'm finished. 

I'll quit now before my internet dies yet again. Time to call the company. 

Thanks. I'll try and post the results.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

chefwriter said:


> Thank you for all the replies.
> 
> I'll begin experimenting. My end goal is to be able to whip up a cake on short notice now that the holidays are coming and genoise seems to be the answer. I'm happy to find I was correct in my belief that the differences are mostly preference in end product. As suggested, I will have my own preference when I'm finished.
> 
> ...


Always nice to have a recipe or two to pull out of your hip pocket at the drop of a hat.

The fisherman is taking me on a leaf peeping/Civil War monument and graveyard gawking road trip.

We leave in a few days so I am trying to use up all the perishables hanging around in the fridge.

Took an inventory this AM and now have a carrot cake in the oven.

Sure smells good in here lol.

Time to whip up a simple cream cheese icing.

mimi


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Chefwriter,

I use this recipe, I'm sure alot do but thought I would just add a few words about the technique.

250g sugar

8 medium eggs

250g plain flour

50g butter

Place the eggs and sugar in a heatproof bowl (or your Kitchen Aid bowl / Stand Mixer)

Use a whisk and incorporate the two gently together till homogenized

Sit it over simmering water , continue whisking until temperature of mixture reaches 55 degrees,  remove and place on Stand Mixer and mix on high speed until it is cooled down, by that time the mixture will have gone from yellow to almost white and will have tripled in volume.

Melt butter till it turns golden (beurre noisette) and drizzle into the mixture while  machine is still running.

Remove the metal dish at this point and gently sieve , small increments of flour into the bowl. Do not over mix as this will prevent the cake from rising. 

This is the basic sponge/genoise. Some like to add vanilla or other flavors/syrups to the cake, all depending what the final product is.

ps. I really enjoyed reading your article of the Johnson and Wales University last night.

Petals.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Petals. 

Thanks for the recipe. I'll be printing that out for the experiments. Glad you enjoyed the article. 

One more question. 

Why is salt never called for in a genoise? Seems a standard baking ingredient.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Very good question. 

I was researching the science of genoise the other night and did not find a definitive answer . 

What I do find fascinating about a genoise is that aeration is used instead of baking powders . 

I've read posts that complain of the egg taste. In the recipe I posted I guess this could be true to an extent, not entirely. What many forget is that the purpose of a genoise was to introduce flavours after the fact. 

I now see a lot of recipes adding vanilla , including salt. Is this such a bad thing ? My recipe uses 8 eggs but I often thought of using 5 whole eggs and 3 egg whites. I look forward to your findings. 

Luc had some insightful info and is a pro at baking, I wonder what his thoughts are on the salt issue ?


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

petalsandcoco said:


> Luc had some insightful info and is a pro at baking, I wonder what his thoughts are on the salt issue ?


Hi Petals,

No I'm not a pro baker just a food science guy that enjoys all facets of food making, tasting and eating (oh and history).

As for the salt issue, I believe that salt is a modern ingredient which was seldom used as frivolously in XVIIIth century. Why it is not included now in recipes? probably because of tradition since recipes tend to be handed down like oral history. I also believe it is not necessary to add because, as already mentioned, génoise are like a new canvas i.e. it is a building block that is often flavoured using infused syrups and incorporated in a larger confectionery masterpiece.

Great discussion!

Luc H.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

chefwriter said:


> After researching numerous genoise recipes, I notice that there are some differences among them. Although all recipes were for the same end result, the amount needed for each of the ingredients was never the same.
> 
> 1. 4 eggs
> 
> ...


@chefwriter Hope you are having fun at your experiments!

I do find myself having to add to the voices here as a lot of people generally mix up genoise with the Victoria sponge that has butter (an extra fat added)

So in your OP you had asked what is the difference between the recipes posted:

1.) This is a recipe for a Victoria sponge (which often gets lumped in with genoise but is completely different)

2, 3 & 4.) These are genoise recipes

To understand why recipes are the way they are is to understand the science behind each ingredient in a recipe and why they are there.

*EGGS:* While we can spend a great deal of time studying to understand all of the properties that eggs have we will just stick with the recipes at hand.

*Aerator*: Eggs have the capacity to trap air through foaming which will have a leavening effect on your baked goods. As this mainly applies to egg whites, egg yolks can be foamed as well to a lesser degree.

They are an integral part of the structure of baked goods as structure happens when the egg proteins coagulate in the batter or dough after coming in contact with heat. As eggs carry a distinctive flavour depending on preparation (i.e.: scrambled egg vs. egg inside brioche). If brioche did not have egg in it, besides its appearance being off, the flavour would be noticeably different. Eggs have a direct effect on binding the ingredients in a batter or dough, which effect not only texture but flavour as well.....it is especially important to have proper emulsion. Eggs add colour not just as an egg wash but in the dough or batter itself which browns while baking (called Maillard browning - it is the caramelization of sugar in the presence of protein). Also....eggs add a nutritional value.

Typical weight of an unshelled egg for most recipes is 50 grams each whole, so for a 4 egg recipe this would be 200 grams or 7 ounces.

*FLOUR:* The main purpose of flour is to provide the structure or body (along with eggs) in a dough or batter. Gluten (a protein) is mostly responsible for the structure of a dough or batter, but the flour in itself does not contain gluten. It contains gluten and gliadin (both proteins), which together will produce gluten when they come into contact with water and during the mixing process. The longer a dough mixes, the more gluten will develop in a given dough or batter. So while it is desired in certain doughs, like brioche, it is not needed in the above batters. Different varieties of flour have different percentages of protein. It also contributes to flavour and in conjunction with sugar, produces colour through the Maillard browning mentioned above. It also absorbs liquids which helps bind all the ingredients together in a dough or batter as well as adds some nutritional value.

The best type of flour used in these recipes above would be Cake Flour. It has 7 to 8 percent protein and is good for all types of sponge cakes. Pastry flour is 8 to 9 percent protein and is good for muffins. All-purpose flour is 9 to 10.5 percent protein and can be used for all other batters and dough. Bread flour is 11 to 13.5 percent protein and only good for most viennoiserie or lean dough breads. White whole wheat flour is 13 to 14 percent protein and best used in sourdough bread. This gives you an idea as to why we use the proper flour for the proper application (recipe).

*SUGAR:* Is mainly used to sweeten but has other contributions to baked goods. In yeasted doughs, it promotes or speeds up fermentation, since sugar is the food yeast uses to ferment. It also acts as a tenderizer since, like butter, it interferes but doesn't prevent gluten strand formation by delaying the formation of structure. The more sugar in a batter or dough the more tender it will be. However, too much sugar will over tenderize the dough, making it a spongy, soft mess, as well, if the dough contains yeast it will grow too quickly. Sugar contributes to colour by browning easily in conjunction with the flour proteins (Maillard browning).

In foamed sponge cakes, it will assist in stabilizing the egg foam by slowing down the unfolding of the egg proteins, which will prevent the over whipping of egg foams, especially egg white foam. It also stabilizes the foam because as the sugar comes into contact with the moisture found in eggs, it will dissolve and this liquid sugar will help trap and support air bubbles.

Now....butter and salt, as you can see, added in will produce a different type of outcome and product. Hence not a genoise but a different sponge altogether.

*BUTTER:* Will provide flakiness, flavour, moisture and volume, and it acts as a tenderizer in baked goods. It 'softens' a baked product by interfering with the structure formation achieved by the flour and eggs. Butter fat will coat the gluten strands, reducing gluten development since glutenin and gliadin will not be able to come into contact with the water (liquid). Remember the water needed for gluten development. So instead of having longer strands of gluten, the dough will have shorter strands which means the product is tenderized.

As all butter is NOT the same, please choose an unsalted creamery or country churned butter that has a very light whiter colour to it than a regular "butter" that is very yellow and has salt in it. I could go into the science of this as well but it would make you really fall asleep reading it all.....lol

*SALT:* The main function of salt is flavour enhancement. Of course used in dough with yeast it becomes a way to help control and slow down fermentation. Other functions of salt include increased colour of crust and strengthening gluten bonds, which makes dough more uniform.

Get into the habit of weighing every ingredient, have every ingredient at its right temperature before mixing (i.e.: eggs at room temp, etc.) and paying attention to heat temperatures in oven, as this produces the exact outcome every bake.

Please remember....baking is a science not an art so it DOES count as to knowing why you are using and what for. As for the rest....delicious mistakes are sometimes the best inventions and knowing where the mistake was made makes for a new recipe to share!

So that my friends is the science behind the madness that is our baking/pastry world. If you would like more specific info on anything else don't hesitate to ask. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefwriter


petalsandcoco said:


> I've read posts that complain of the egg taste. In the recipe I posted I guess this could be true to an extent, not entirely. What many forget is that the purpose of a genoise was to introduce flavours after the fact.


I have found this also. We use two formulas. One traditional, ribboning the eggs over heat to an increased volume. Then whipping. Which has less of an egg taste.

And one that I think was bastardized overtime by US chefs for speed. Just adding eggs sugar and maybe using a warm rag under the bowl and whip to volume. This method does not seem to get as homogenous as the ribboned one. It will also have more of an egg taste which we use for custard fillings and things like Boston Cream Pie.

I have used butter in most all Genoise formulas. I've used melted and sometimes softened butter and temper it with mixture to fold. Just sayin


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

@ Fablesable

if Sugar contributes to colour by browning easily in conjunction with the flour proteins (Maillard browning).

if Eggs add colour not just as an egg wash but in the dough or batter itself which browns while baking (called Maillard browning - it is the caramelization of sugar in the presence of protein).

and if It (gluten) also contributes to flavour and in conjunction with sugar, produces colour through the Maillard browning mentioned above.

why does the cake not get evenly brown through and through?

is melting and caramelizing sugar as for a crème brûlée also a Maillard reaction?

how about a beurre noisette?

also typo alert here:

Gluten (a protein) is mostly responsible for the structure of a dough or batter, but the flour in itself does not contain gluten. It contains *gluten* and gliadin (both proteins)...

I think you meant *glutenin*. It didn't sound right because -in is the suffix for protein names.

fascinating thread!!

Luc H.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

wow. i had no idea i would start such a discussion. home internet is down. first genoise done. success. egg flavor. by hand means sore arms. more later when internet comes back .


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@Luc_H Thank you for that correction to the gluten to glutenin as my computer in trying to help me with spelling at sometimes hinders it.....very much appreciated /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

In regards to your other questions...which are great questions btw....

Browning - This is the term used to describe colour changes in foods. This affects their appearance. There are four causes of browning:

Non-enzymic browning (maillard browning) -

Simple sugars (carbohydrates) react with the protein in the food. This acts to brown the product when cooked in a dry heat. An example of this is when meat which is dry is cooked (for example, in an oven) it turns a golden brown.

Enzymic browning -

This occurs when some fruit and vegetables are cut or sliced and exposed to the air. The enzymes present in the food react with the oxygen in the air and turn the cut surface brown. Adding an acid to the cut surface, such as lemon juice (an antioxidant), can prevent this.

Caramelization -

This is the heating of a sugar to a temperature above its melting point. The sugar thickens and turns brown, producing a toffee like flavour and consistency. For example, when set, caramelized sugar will form toffee around an apple. Caramelization is also often used in sugar spinning or to form a caramel topping on crème brulee. Its crunchy texture and sweet taste is very appealing.

Dextrinisation -

This occurs when, in a dry heat, starch is turned into dextrin (a simple sugar) that caramelizes and turns brown. Examples include toasting or grilling bread.

The marriage of high heat, amino acids, and sugar is responsible for the Maillard reaction. Whereas, Caramelization is the browning of sugar, seen commonly in roasted marshmallows, crème brûlée, and, of course, caramel. Caramelization is a considerably simpler reaction than the Maillard reaction, since it involves just heat and sugar. Although caramelization occurs at different temperatures depending on the type of sugar, it generally happens at around 338˚F. So Caramelization, like the Maillard reaction, is a non-enzymatic browning process, however the maillard browning must have the heat, protein and sugar where the caramelization is heating sugar to its melting point.

Hopefully I answered your questions? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

You did not answer all of my questions directly per se i.e. what is the process of browning in beurre noisette and why the cake is not evenly brown when it contains proteins and sugar throughout but that's fine. I know the answers to these.

I was checking your science background and interpretation thereof since it feels that you're cutting and pasting from web references or textbooks with minor edits without understanding the background.  If you do/did, please, it's a good idea to include your references.  I've learn the lesson that long scientific posts are often ignored or misinterpreted.  Trying to blind people with science is a trick I have often seen here and in the real world.  You may be perceived as a charlatan.

By the way, the sugar-amine (Maillard) reaction is mostly responsible for the browning of marshmallows since they are mostly of protein (gelatine) and sugar, in fact the best kind of sugar for browning, monosaccharide reducing sugars, since they are made with glucose or corn syrup.

Apart from taste, by far the largest function of sugar in baking (and in cooking in general) is as a humectant.  Baking is often a result of correct water management and sugar serves to hold specific amounts of water (moisture) at specific temperatures to create the desired mouthfeel (crumb, crunch, gooey, etc...). 

Respectfully,

Luc H.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Luc_H said:


> You did not answer all of my questions directly per se i.e. what is the process of browning in beurre noisette and why the cake is not evenly brown when it contains proteins and sugar throughout but that's fine. I know the answers to these.
> 
> I was checking your science background and interpretation thereof since it feels that you're cutting and pasting from web references or textbooks with minor edits without understanding the background. If you do/did, please, it's a good idea to include your references. I've learn the lesson that long scientific posts are often ignored or misinterpreted. Trying to blind people with science is a trick I have often seen here and in the real world. You may be perceived as a charlatan.
> 
> ...


Thank you Luc H. for your feedback although some incorrect it is always appreciated that people care.

To answer fully to your post I will say that my notes throughout the years have had a lot of science in them as my father is a scientist and fortunately passed that on to his beloved children so I indeed like to inform people and allow them to do some research of their own or not.....it is up to the reader. I have enjoyed my diverse learning process over the years as to the science behind the product and am a large advocate of people reading things and then going out and researching and experimenting themselves. I left my post for you to draw your own conclusions as I assumed if you like science then you would be able to understand what was said however that being said.........

Beurre Noisette is a non-enzymic browning (Maillard browning) as it has an protein (amino acid) and sugar (disaccharides)

Marshmallows is also a non-enzymic browning (Maillard browning) as you have already pointed out. Also baking a cake, cookies, bread or roasting a roast, etc. The Maillard browning is responsible for a whole heck of a lot more than just marshmallow browning BECAUSE of the protein (amino acid) and sugar (mono-saccharides hexoses and/ or disaccharides) and its exposure to a dry heat. As not ALL sugars are reducing sugars which are the ones that impact the colour achieved in the Maillard browning....the ones that are: fructose, glucose, maltose, galactose and lactose. Hence, fruits, honey, corn syrup, beet and cane sugars, molasses, maple syrup, milk and milk products, and malt products.

As for the function of sugar in baking as a humectant.....you are mistaken that it is the MAIN purpose in baking as it is not due to the addition of flour, milk fats (butter, buttermilk, etc.) and eggs. As is the only reason things brown is the result of you adding sugar to the recipe as that is not the only way to achieve browning in a finished product....see above.


> Baking is often a result of correct water management and sugar serves to hold specific amounts of water (moisture) at specific temperatures to create the desired mouthfeel (crumb, crunch, gooey, etc...).


This quote.....I am not sure as it is a generalization of water and sugar (as in their own ingredients) in a baking product as these two ingredients have an impact on baking as much as any ingredient in the recipe. However if you were meaning the ratio of total sugars and moisture then I am with you there.

As for the cutting and pasting...I hear you there however I am an experienced person with her own load of notes and science oriented to boot so if I need to 'cut and paste' you will definately know the resource.

If I may be so bold.....you say "trying to blind people with science is a trick I have often seen here and in the real world...you may perceived as a charlatan" ....is that not the pot calling the kettle black so to speak? And if you have had those experiences in your life is it not a reflection upon yourself of the negative reception rather than on the others that are trying to impart their wisdom learned over the years? I have never had negative reactions to my information and teachings. It is all in the perception and reception of others. It has no bearing on myself who loves to learn and teach in order to grow. Take what I have to say or don't....it is all a state of mind and opinion and I respect everyone for theirs.

I will always look forward to a wonderfully open and thoughtful mindset,

Fable


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

@Fablesable

I (the pot) did call the kettle black by saying ''I've learn the lesson that long scientific posts are often ignored or misinterpreted''. That was my olive branch.

With that I will bow out of this discussion.

I leave you the last word if you wish.

great subject!

Luc H.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Madame Fable and Monsieur Luc, there is way too much information to be learned for you to bow out of this. As far as the science of Baking, this topic has been one of the most fascinating and stimulating topics I have read this week besides the transparency thread. 

We can disagree to agree and that is a diplomatic way of addressing topics. 

I have a small question to ask if I may ? And I will. 

In the recipe I posted, if we were to leave out the butter, would not this recipe return to the original recipe for a Genoise ? 

By introducing fat , was this to prolong shelf life ? 

Petals.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Luc_H, @Fablesable

The last few posts sadden me. You both have so much to offer. Why don't you guys leave it up to us, to do our due diligence.

I am lacking in the scientific side of baking and am fascinated by this type of thread.

I mentioned that I have only used butter in Genoise. That is from my practical experience. I try to only post to what I have done.

I worked and apprenticed in Europe 40 yrs. ago with famous chefs, Lenotre etc. I would really like to know about the history of

Genoise.

I don't care about sources, I'd just like all to offer what they want to put forth.

Thanks

Jeff


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

@petalsandcoco and @panini

(m-u-s-t r-e-s-i-s-t) I am humbled by your pleas (m-u-s-t r-e-s-i-s-t) but I CAN'T RESIST not answering a question directed to me. In the spirit of, to each their own opinion, and, for the benefit to the ones that actually read my Food Sci-rambling, here goes:

@petalsandcoco For what I can gather an acceptable Génoise can be be done with or without butter as long as you do not use any other leavening agent than the foaming eggs (A Victorian sponge requires an additional leavening agent). One would think that a Génoise (without butter) would be low fat but the egg yolk is a very (good/healthy) fatty ingredient which contains naturally occurring emulsifiers, lecithin mainly, that will easily emulsify some additional fat (butter).

So Luc, when to use butter or not you may ask? My instinct tells me that it depends on the flavouring you will use because often a light syrup or liqueur is brushed to soak in the Génoise in many recipes. If a water based flavouring like eau de rose, orange blossom water or flavoured simple syrup, a no butter génoise is suitable but when using a spirit or alcohol base flavouring (like a liqueur), I would go with a butter Génoise because the alcohol will partially melt, dissolve and blend into the butter to make a more heavenly lingering flavour impact.... BE AWARE this is my opinion, no reference! (wink to Panini)

@panini Chefs are the boss here. I respect that. I am in awe of your culinary experience. I have food experience from a different perspective which is not always appreciated here but my goal is always to inform as best I can. Other than what I mention here and above, I am all out of Génoise trivia I think.

Merci à tous!

Luc H.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Lol....I love a good debate as much as another so I really do not wish you to be sad @panini I GREATLY appreciate what Luc H. has to say and in no way am taking offence but replying in good form.

This kettle loves a good steam now and again.....hehe

@petalsandcoco I agree with Luc H. on his last post. If you leave out the butter on your recipe then yes it would turn into an original genoise recipe. As genoise without the butter does have a significantly short shelf life I usually use it for my molded or layered cakes that have very moist additions to them. Although like Luc H. has said, I do use clarified butter (ghee) or buerre noisette in my genoise recipe if I am using a heavy or alcohol based syrup or coating. If you do use butter in the recipe it does extend the shelf life to approximately five days however the flavour profile would be compromised a bit. Also, if I am to freeze a genoise I add butter to the recipe as this helps keep the moisture in the cake when thawed. I have found that the original genoise, with no butter, unless used immediately....is not very good for freezing or anything else.

@panini

I have found this site to be an excellent read and reference guide for the historical information on cakes.....well...pretty much any type of food really www.foodtimeline.org

@Luc_H Your knowledge from your food experience from being a biochemist and food scientist and a person who eats food, will never be frowned upon! Learning why our food is what it is and does what it does makes us (the chefs) better for it. It might not always be appreciated from some who think they are THE BOSS but from those of us on this food journey to the end we cannot be more appreciative. Calling it how you see it, to me, makes you a person with principle and integrity.........and your best is, as they say, good enough! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Fablesable,

I enjoyed the website and bookmarked it.

I haven't really delved into the Genoise, but I found this interesting.

"Genoese Sponge, genoise. A light sponge cake that takes its name from the city of Genoa. Genoise sponge is made of eggs and sugar whisked over heat until thick, then cooled and combined with flour and melted butter. It can be enriched with ground almonds or crystallized (candied) fruits and flavoured with liqueur, the rind (zest) of citrus fruits or vanilla. Genoese sponge...differs from ordinary sponge cake in that the eggs are beaten whole, whereas in the latter the yolks and whites are usually beaten separately. Genoise sponge is the basis of many filled cakes. Cut into two or more layers, thich may be covered with jam, cream, or fruit puree. It is coated, iced (frosted) and decorated as required."
---_Larousse Gastronomique_, completely revised and updated [Clarkston Potter:New York] 2001 (p. 55)

I enjoyed the website and bookmarked it.

I haven't really delved into the Genoise, but I found this interesting.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Ah yes....I love the Larousse Gastronomique! Although I do not have revised edition.....such a great resource.....thank you for the reminder to go pull it out and read it again /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Also what I found interesting on the food timeline website:

*Genoise*
Genoise is one of several types of sponge cake. According to the food historians, this cake was *invented* in the early 19th century. About sponge cake. There are also other confections known by this geographic appelation. Genoa Cake, for one. These are somewhat similar in ingredients.

*The Genoa connection*
Presumably, these recipes are connected with the Italian city of the same name. This busy trading port served as one of several crossroads for importing/exporting foods from Arab countries throughout Europe. These included ingredients generally found in geneoise: almonds, currants, raisins, citrus and spices.

"Genoa's position in the Mediterranean in summed up in the medieval proverb genuensis ergo mercator, a Genoese therefore a trader. In the eleventh century, the Arabs began losing their position to the Normans in Sicily. The decline of Arab supremacy meant the rise of the other powers like Genoa. But by the late fourteenth cetnury, Genoa was in danger of falling to foreign domination and decadence. The enterprising Genoese avoided this fate by exploring new ways to assure a prosperous future. Commerica interests from northern Europe, with their expertise in building mountain roads, found Genoa suitable for their entry into the profitable shipping trade, and by the fifteenth century Genoa was the leading financial city of the world. Genoa played an early role as an intermediary between Seville and the New World and forged an alliance with Spain in 1528...The Ariadne's thread throughout Genoa's history is the concern for a reliable food supply...The Genoises were their own principal customers of food, and the luxuries of the East--which made them rich--were reexported at high profit. Genoa traded with whomever could provide food."
---_A Mediterranean Feast_, Clifford A. Wright [William Morrow:New York] 1999 (p. 348)

Kinda cool /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you so much for your thoughts on the "issue" of butter. I absolutely agree that this type of cake is solely enhanced by what is added on it/in it. It is interesting to note that there are other types of sponge cakes.

I often spray my cakes with flavoured simple syrups/liqueurs as they add the needed flavor profile.  Candy oils are integrated when making the syrups as they really enhance the flavor, depending of course on what I'm trying to achieve, not all are done this way. Fruit puree works wonderful in a Victoria sponge or Genoise.

Jeff has been terrific, in all his years of posting here , I have gained a great deal of knowledge because of him. As far as the science goes, Luc and Fable, you both have given us all a science lesson that I am extremely grateful for.

The science of it all is just eye opening. I am presently reading (over the span of a month now  when I have time) Paula Figoni- How Baking Works  Exploring the Fundamentals of Baking Science Second Edition. 

I wanted to add a snippet from the Book : A History of Food - Maguelonne Toussaint- Samat, under the heading , The History of Bread and Cakes, pp 219-220 

"Gastronomy flourished in the nineteenth century, when the Genoese sponge cake was first invented. Known as pain des Genes in France, it should not be confused with the Genoise which is a kind of almond topping . It's name celebrates the siege of city of Genoa by Massena in 1800. A rather grisly detail is that the cake is flavoured with almonds because all the besieged citizens had to eat before they surrendered was 50 tones of almonds. Madeleine's , made with a basic batter of the pound-cake type, are thought to have come from Commercy, and to have been invented by a cook called Madeleine Paumier, not, as is sometimes claimed, by Talleyrand's chef Avice. Fauvel, a chef working for the famous pastrycook Chiboust , invented the Genoese sponge and also had a hand in the creation of the gateau saint-honore , so called in honour of the patron saint of pastrycooks. It is garnished with choir pastry puffs, and choux pastry".....etc. (French accents not included ).

Does anyone have this book ? It is an interesting read.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@petalsandcoco,

OK, Now I'm a little confused. I'm so interested in this. Now, I know what Genoa cake is, nothing like sponge. Now, I know Genoese sponge (use it for roulades and Bouche).

I'm still not clear, it was invented by Italians, or French who gave credit to Genoa by calling it Genoise? I'm not so sure Genoese sponge is as old as Genoa cake and Genoise.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Lol. I'm just as baffled but I tend to agree with you, puzzling ? 

Italians or French ?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Lol...I am just as confused. Although might I put forth a plan for all of us to meet in Italy and then off to France to find the truth to this puzzling question......and have some great meals along the way....hehe


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Fablesable, well I have family in one country and gracious in laws in another. Might be a good excuse to go as soon as air fares come down. I know Petals will probably be in.

I'm trying to track down one of my mentors. He's running around France right now. He's probably 75 by now, but still active. He will be able to answer this question for sure. I don't usually throw around names, but you might have heard of him. Ives Thuries. Hope I have an answer soon.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@panini Yes.....I have definitely heard of Yves Thuries!! lol Can't work in this field for as long as we have and not heard of him. That is very cool that you had him for a mentor!! Such a wonderful man....I had the honour to meet and gab with him for a bit when I was living over there. I am definitely sure he would know a thing or two about what we are talking about! So rare to have a master craftsman such as Monsieur Thuries as your mentor......that is an amazing part of your journey. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif

Sorry for the delay as I just arrived home from the shop /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

Ok I found the actual inventor of the Génoise, and yes he's Italian and made the cake for the Spanish Court.

Giovanni Battista Cabona

This french reference talks about many variations of génoise:

http://www.undejeunerdesoleil.com/2013/04/reussir-la-genoise-pan-di-spagna.html

Génoise (beaten eggs, sugar and flour only) no cooking also called pan di Spagna (bread of Spain?!)

Biscuit Génoise: using a bain marie to heat the eggs and add butter

Pain de gêne: beaten eggs and almond paste

English reference naming Giovanni Battista Cabona

http://tiramisustory.com/en/sponge-...lar-dessert-base-and-other-interesting-facts/

There are plenty of Italian website that talk about Giovanni but my Italian is quite rusty (wink!). For all know he could be a ballet danser...

This said, I retract my French connection bit (for lack of references). I still hesitate only because if the name génoise is used in French and in English, I suspect it's French origin otherwise it would be called Genoa sponge or a more Italian name in English but my reasoning may be flawed...

Luc H.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Luc_H,

My French is as rusty as your Italian. I did browse quite a few French sites referring to this. Thanks for you site. I'm going to enlist my darling

wife to go over a few of these site with me. not to disagree with you but feel comfortable with my answer. I know it's a small point but my OCD always kicks in.


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

Like I always say to each their rust and OCD... (wink)

Luc H.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Siduri might be reading this and having a good laugh ! 

It has been a terrific thread .


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Experiment results so far. 

Recipe used limited to 

4 eggs 

1/2 cup sugar

1 Cup Cake Flour

tsp of Vanilla

 Second batch I added

Pinch of salt. 

Until I get technique down, I'll keep it simple with these ingredients. I discovered I need a new thermometer for egg temperature. 

Getting them to the right heat level is important for maintaining air loft. Continued whipping doesn't help if the eggs aren't hot enough. Back and forth over the water bath until the eggs maintain the ribbon effect. 

     To keep the bowl off the water while whipping, a splatter screen placed over the water bath is very helpful to rest my arm while whipping the eggs.  

Egg aroma while baking, lessens as the cake cools. 

      Setting up miss en place takes the longest. Have the pan buttered and floured before you begin making the batter. Once everything is ready, the process is pretty quick. The cake bakes in about ten minutes. 

I have a set of three cake pans 8, 10 and 12 inch. First cake baked in 10 inch. Second in 8 inch. First was fine but spread the batter a bit thin for slicing into layers. More bulk in the 8 inch. 

     Next batch I'll be separating the eggs and whipping separately to see how that works. 

Maybe a little butter as well. 

     Working on a coconut frosting for when they cool. Just because I have a lot of coconut sitting around. 

Watching the process has been fascinating. Have to find others to help eat all the cakes though. 

     Oh, and I'm glad to see everyone enjoying the thread. It's been fascinating reading all your contributions. 

I think genoise is now my favorite kind of cake.

More when I have it.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefwriter,

I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

panini said:


> @chefwriter
> ,
> I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road.


Being on a road trip at this time I can definitely verify that sometimes taking a left can be disastorious indeed.
But then again you never know.
You may find that perfect jewel of a B and B or maybe a gorgeous mountain overlook not marked on any maps.
But of course a flat tire is not out of the question either lol.

mimi


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

panini said:


> @chefwriter,
> 
> I tyhink separating the eggs and whipping separately will be taking a left of the road./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


agree!

Luc H.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

The idea to separate the eggs came from a book I own called Four Star Desserts by Emily Luchetti. 

6 eggs, separated. 

1 1/2 cup granulated sugar

1/2 tsp salt

1 tsp vanilla 

1/4 cup hot water

4 TB unsalted butter, melted

1 cup all purpose flour. 

Mix yolks, 1 cup sugar, salt and vanilla.

whisk on high till thick, on medium speed add hot water, scrape sides, return to high speed, 

whip till thick. Fold in flour then butter. 

Whip egg whites on medium till frothy, Increase to high 

add remaining 1/2 cup sugar. whip till stiff.

Fold into batter. 

I paraphrased a bit for brevity but that's essentially it. 

 a 11 by 17 by 1 inch pan is called for but I don't see why I can't use a different pan. . 

The recipe is called Vanilla Genoise. 

Separating the eggs and folding in the whites separately would only seem to enable more air to be incorporated, making a lighter, fluffier end product, but it would still be a genoise, no?


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## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

chefwriter said:


> Separating the eggs and folding in the whites separately would only seem to enable more air to be incorporated, making a lighter, fluffier end product, but it would still be a genoise, no?


You're right on the more air bit but a génoise uses whole egg (historically speaking).

Separating the eggs will give more volume but also larger alveoles. The cake will be too airy (sponge cake like)

If the eggs are whipped whole into ribbons (and cooked to retain the air) then the crumb is tighter yet still light. The difference is subtle but the resulting génoise is more flavourful with each bite and the tight air weave help soak up syrups without becoming soggy . In French, they refer to the génoise as more wafer/cookie like than sponge cake like.

(That is my interpretation of my research).

Luc H.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefwriter,

I will change my comment from taking a left, to taking a right and then on the service road to a traditional sponge./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif I also just glanced at the formula you posted. It's hard for me to scale down in my head now that I'm old, but it looks to me like a lot of sugar. If you feel like playing, I would cut the sugar by a 1/3 and use milk instead if water./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Luc_H said:


> You're right on the more air bit but a génoise uses whole egg (historically speaking).
> 
> In French, they refer to the génoise as more wafer/cookie like than sponge cake like.
> 
> ...


@ Chefwriter : That is the first time I see water being used for it.

@ Panini :I agree with you on the sugar and milk. Maybe there was an error when Chefwriter posted. If it is not, that is alot of sugar.

@ Luc: I hate using the word "authentic" but I have always believed that it was exactly that, wafer/cookie type cake. There is a fine line that should not be crossed over here. IMHO


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I am now waiting for the cake to cool off. No, there was no mistake in the recipe as posted.

I used the recipe as written. As soon as it cools off, I'll cut in in half and check the crumb. 

Okay, I couldn't wait. Softer and more tender than the first one. A bit sweeter and more cake like flavor, not as eggy. .

The alveoles are definitely bigger in places but not throughout the entire cake. This version is, as I said, more tender without the "pull" of the earlier version. I probably did not mix it as thoroughly as I should have but it baked up just fine. I managed to split it horizontally and will frost it in the morning. At least what's left.  

I can see why the first whole egg recipe would be better suited for adding syrups and liqueurs while this one would most likely not be able to hold up with the added moisture. 

I am fascinated most of all that using the same ingredients in a different way can have such a profound effect. 

I'll try a third version tomorrow.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

A lot of folks don't like the egg taste, given that this cake doesn't have it , is a good thing.

I would like to try this recipe when I have a chance. I am looking forward to your next test cake.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Latest cake was a jelly roll using the Joy of Cooking recipe for Hot-milk sponge cake. This calls for the addition

of baking powder as well as the addition of hot milk and butter added at the end.

     The first one I baked for too long, about twenty minutes, coming out too stiff for rolling. Same recipe second

time only for ten minutes, came out very rollable. I didn't get as much lift as anticipated out of the baking powder addition. When cooked,

the cake was about 1/2 inch thick, the recipe amount as written was spread out on a standard half sheet pan.

Certainly a larger batch may fill more of the pan and result in a thicker cake but I will try the next one with no baking powder to see what happens. 

     Second one had a yellow appearance with a distinct egg aroma but when filled with ganache, rolled and frosted, the egg flavor was not noticeable. 

By the way, I ended up bringing it to a party as a buche noel, or yule log on a sliver platter surrounded by meringue mushrooms. It was a big hit. I filled it with a 

Grand Marnier ganache and covered with an almond paste chocolate frosting. Once the cake is rolled and frosted, the transition to a "log" takes only a minute. Cut an end off and

rest it on top, frost it to make a "branch". Scrape with a fork to make a bark like appearance. I dusted it with coconut and powdered sugar for snow. And I forgot how easy and fun meringue mushrooms are to make. 

     One interesting resource for knowledge was "The Patissier's Art" by George Karousis, "Master Chef of the Sea Fare Inn". In the section on sponge cake 

he refers to sponge cake making as either Hot method (genoise) or Cold method (chiffon sponges). Hot meaning whipping the whole eggs and sugar over heat, then away from heat until cold, then adding flour.  Cold is to separate the eggs, whipping yolks and sugar without heat, whipping whites and sugar and folding the meringue in next, then adding flour.

Perhaps most interesting is that he calls for bread flour while virtually all other recipes have identified cake flour. It is perhaps important to add that all his recipes are in professional amounts, often by pounds, Although intended for a professional audience, the book has many beautiful color photos. 

     Research on this topic reminded me how much confusion I find with trying to follow the naming process people use.  It was more instructive for me to focus on the importance of technique and preparation involved. As noted in an earlier post, many of the variations in recipe are related to relatively small changes in the desired end product.  A half cup of this or that did not make enough of a difference to justify calling the end result something else although many recipes do. In all the cakes made thus far, the success or failure of the cake regardless of recipe depended on my ability to be adequately prepared with equipment and ingredient layout, pre heated oven, and proper performance of technique.   Separating the whites and yolks had the most noticeable effect of virtually eliminating the eggy aroma and flavor, but not enough of a difference for me to consider I had made an entirely different style of cake. 

I also learned that the term biscuit, when referencing this style of cake, is a french term not to be interpreted in the manner Americans use the word biscuit. Still a sponge or genoise, simply a different name that doesn't seem to translate well.  

     The next experiment will involve making a gluten free version for a Thanksgiving guest.


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## oli (Aug 31, 2001)

chefwriter said:


> Experiment results so far.
> 
> Recipe used limited to
> 
> ...


For me, my genoise tend not to rise enough. So far from what someone else with the same issue was told, is not to flour the pan, just grease. Something to do with the batter not having something to hold onto. With nothing to hold onto the cake does not rise as much and therefore you end up with flatter cake - not what I want.

I have not made a genoise since learning about this to confirm.


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