# Wusthof Ikon



## chefofthefuture

Does anyone know if Wusthof plans on releasing more knives in their Classic Ikon line? I bought a few of those knives and I absolutely love them, they have a great feel in my hand, and they are surprisingly sharp for a German knife.

Specifically does anyone know if they plan on releasing more Chef knives? I bought the 8" as part of a set and it's a little underwhelming, I would like to see a 10" or 10" wide chefs knife to come out. As well, I'm looking to buy a quality offset bread knife, but I don't want to buy the classic if they are going to come out with the Ikon version soon. 

Anyone have any insight?


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## dillbert

my crystal ball sez they already exist in 16 & 20 & 23 cm

item 4996
WÜSTHOF - Knife collections


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## adamm

they used to have listed on there website that they had a 26 cm(which i belive is 10 in) knife but i have never seen it at a store or on any online stores. Havent been onthere web site for a couple months so i dont know if the still have it listed. maybe try an email them, they can probaly leave you know if there going to make one, they were friendly and pretty quick the last time i emailed there customer service.


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## boar_d_laze

Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu 10-in. Cook's Knife - Wusthof Chef's Knives

60% off a Le Cordon Bleu -- same blade, same cut-down bolster, different (Classic) handle. If you really want the blade this is the one. If you're trying to complete the set and need matching handles -- I don't think they have it and doesn't look like they're likely to have it. I think Ikon sales have been tilted to the demographics which prefer the shorter lengths.

FWIW, the LCB line got blown away by the Ikon line, but other than the handles they're exactly the same knives.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

Yeah, the Le Cordon Bleu is nice, but being a Johnson & Wales student, I just can't bring myself to buy one. Aside the point I already own a few Ikon knives, and I'm sold on them.


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## boar_d_laze

Good one.

Honestly, the only difference is the handle and the twist of the tang. In every other respect, type of steel (X50CrMo), shape of blade (slightly modified German profile, spear point), edge geometry (single face, 17 degree 50/50 symmetric bevel) weight, balance, etc., they are the same.

The Ikon was designed to combine the Japanese influenced blade and feel of the LCB with the ergonomic shape of the Culinair (itself strongly influenced by Global) and the ever popular POM scale material of the Classic and LCB. And how can you pass up that price?

If you use a standard pinch grip on your chef's knife, have a more or less normal sized hand, and don't suffer from hand problems, the handle shape shouldn't be much of an issue. Same handle as a Wusthof Classic -- one of the great handles ever. I've handled a lot of knives over the years and find most traditional handles comfortable as long as they're reasonably well finished. You may be less amenable to the style though.

You may also care about keeping all your knives within the same manufacturer and line. It's not very professional, but I'm in no position to criticize. My own knives have morphed from a set into a themed collection. Glass houses, stones, you know the deal.

If the cosmetics are the deal breaker, and you need a longer knife than the 8" you've outgrown, presumably you know that there are 9" Ikons available. That's the 23cm which Dillbert mentioned. Check out Cutlery and More. Wusthof Classic Ikon - Wusthof Ikon Knife, Wusthof Ikon Knives, Wusthof Ikon Classic Cutlery, Wusthof Icon Knife, Wusthof Icon Knives

Honestly, I wouldn't. You get a lot more work out of a 10" edge than a 9" And I don't think the Ikon's worth the $150 discount price, let alone $200 retail. Ikons have a nice feel, if a little hefty, they're very well made and attractive. It's a crying shame Wusthof is still using bunk steel. I wish the Euros and Americans would start making knives that really compete with the Japanese -- especially since so much of the good material comes from Sweden. But it's not my opinion that counts is it?

Here's hoping you find what you're looking for,
BDL


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## chefofthefuture

Half the reason I like the Ikons is that when I picked it up it fit in my hand. I'm a fairly big person and I have huge mitts, so the big handle just felt natural. As well the edge is very sharp, and is easy to resharpen. For work its amazing, its a clear winner with other knives because I can spend 8 hours prepping things with this knife without having to hone it or sharpen it, and I walk away from work without any hand pains.

You may not like the Ikon line, but for me it was a great fit.

As well, I don't have just 1 knife manufacturer or line in my knife kit. Some knives are good for somethings and others aren't. I use the Ikon 8" as my chef knife, a 7" shun classic santoku, and a Victorinox Fibrox offset serrated knife, amung others. 

For me though, as I feel with everyone... it comes down to what your comfortable with, and what you can handle. Someone asks me what knife I recommend, I let the try out some of mine and see how they like it.

I'm waiting for Wusthof to come out with a 10" wide chef's knife, I've used the Wusthof Classic 10" wide, and loved it. I would have bought one if it wasn't for that **** bolster...


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## boar_d_laze

I do like the Ikons, just not as much as some other knives. I like everything about them except their weight and the quality of the steel they use. I've got big paws too.

Good.

Nearly all of my knives are antique carbon Sabatiers -- everyone worries too much about the care issues to recommend them -- but they work great for me. They can be made very sharp, and the edge lasts a long time with a good steeling regimen. I've got a lot of Forschner Rosewood specialty knives as well -- _garde manger_, filleting, that sort of stuff. And some Henckels Four Star that I used for awhile when I was still catering, and just HAD to have when it first came out in the mid-seventies; and some this and that, too.

I was teaching a few cooking classes in the nineties and early zeroes which ended up being a lot of knife skill stuff. Most of the students were other lawyers and so I had a chance to play with some very expensive knives from all over. Amazing how few people can sharpen a #*&ing knife, isn't it? Anyway, I still get calls to come over and "see my new knife," which usually means they want it profiled and sharpened.

We had a few really nice Japanese knives go through here (Hiromoto AS) but they were requisitioned by my son or my wife didn't like them or ... If I didn't have so much complicated personal and emotional history invested in my _collection_, I'd probably choose mostly Masamoto HCs. Again with the carbon.

Don't hold your breath. From what I was told, most Ikon purchasers are women and the trend is toward shorter knives, rather than longer. As adamm said, they apparently had a 26cm (10") but they discontinued it. The Ikons are just different handles on LCB blades -- and the blades were an overt attempt to copy Japanese shapes, which themselves are mostly copied from the French. So, unless Wusthof decides to work away from it's own Ikon design philosophy, you probably won't see that deep, curved belly either.

I don't get what you don't like about the (now discontinued) Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu line. It seems to be exactly what you're asking for -- a Classic without the finger-guard. (Ikon's have a bolster but no finger-guard) -- but maybe the blade doesn't have enough arc? Whatever. You want big belly, no finger-guard, big hand friendly? Do I have a knife for you! F Dick 1905 Chef's Knife 10"

Good luck on the hunt
BDL


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## adamm

if you like the 10 in classic(just not the bolster) just get a file and go at it. youll have it worked out to where youll like it. Or get a non bolstered knife, aka japanese, i have a misono sweedish carbon series and love you nice fit in the had good balance. you mentioned you have a shun so you have a clue what japanse steel can do. Its far suppier in edge restention. the biggest down fall is you cant try and feel them in your hands first but i dont think youll be disapointed. Trust me take the plung its worth it.


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## chefofthefuture

The only problem with that, is I have never held a Misono or used one for an extended period of time. I bought the knives I own based on actual use, and opinion, not on someone else's opinion. However Misono has quite the reputation and I have looked at them before, I've just felt a bit apprehensive towards buying one because I've never actually used one.

Right now, I'm content with my knives. If Wusthof comes out with an Ikon 10" I'll probably buy it, but if they don't I'll probably take a look at that F.Dick or the Misono.


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## boar_d_laze

adam,

I don't want to steal your thunder. Tell him about the dragon.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

What's this dragon you speak of?


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## adamm

heres a picture of mine

Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives

you can buy them at korin, btw there carbon steel and will react with just about everything but the patina is cool once it sets in. Theres lots of knives out there beyond the world of german knives, I was all in to german knive and bought a bunch of knive about a year ago and now have 4 japanse knives that cover the basics right now and looking to get more. I still use the german knives but not as much as japanse. the shapness and edge retention on japnse knives will blow you away, but keep in mind they will be sharp out of the box but not to there fullest potential.


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## chefofthefuture

And here I am thinking that Misono only made the UX10 series, which from what I hear is still pretty sweet. I do like Japanese knives, and slowly but surely they've been finding their way in my knife kit replacing German knives. I just find it hard to find a Japanese knife with the qualities I like in a knife. 

In a nut shell my perfect knife would have some sort of contoured handle much like the Ikon because it is comfortable to me, it wouldn't have a bolster, it would be big - something like 9-10" long and 3-4" wide, and it would have to be durable. Sharpness is big on there, but I'd much rather have a blade that stays sharp longer, than one that can have a sharper edge but loses it after an hour of heavy use. 

That dragon knife you showed me, how is that like in comparison with the UX10?


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## boar_d_laze

A number, if not most, of the better Japanese knives will hold an edge much longer than any Wusthof.

There are a few ergo handles, but very few. You might be interested in a traditional Japanese "wa" handled knife -- but the balance is very blade forward if you care about that. Also, forgive me, but you don't seem like a real experimental kind of guy.

UX-10 is Misono's top of the line stainless. Misono Swedish is their top of the line carbon. Like most of the big Japanese manufacturers -- but not all, and not the small ones either -- the stainless is the top of the top. So, the UX-10 has, as a whole, better fit and finish. It's a little complicated because a great many of the Sweden series don't have any F&F issues at all. So we're talking about things like better rounding on the heel, and absence of grind marks on the tang -- that sort of thing. 

The Sweden blade is a very good one. Light, sharp, good shape. The balance is very good. Edge taking and holding are much better than your Wusthofs. Rockwell Hardness is around 60, IIRC. 

The Misono Sweden has some serious competitors in the Kikuichi Elite Carbon and the Hiromoto Tenmi Juryaku AS which is an exotic carbon steel core surrounded by a stainless -- so the only exposed carbon is the edge. AS (aogami super) is one of the best Japanese steels.

Masamoto makes two carbon knives, the CT and the HC series both of which are excellent. Masamoto makes very comfortable knives well finished knives -- true across all of their lines. The HC is probably one of the best western style knives made. Great steel. They also make two stainless series. The least expensive is the VG-10 (same steel as the core of your Shun Classic), which is a knife you'd probably like a lot. Reasonably priced too.

The closest thing to the Ikon handle are the Nenox western G and S-1 series. It's a long story, but the Ikon handles evolved from the Culinair, which was (and is) Wusthof's attempt to copy Globals. The S-1 series are probably far more than you want to spend on a work knife. The Gs are nice knives

I know of some heavy gyutos, and some yo-debas for that matter, but I don't know of any Japanese knife with the deep, curved belly you're describing. 

Do you have a reason for wanting such a deep belly with so much arc? Are you looking for a lobster cracker?

If you can put up with carbon -- another idea you're probably not going to like -- is one of the antique Sabatiers that were made for the Canadian market in the first half of the 20th Century. There are some deep blades in the Elephant and K-Sab collections, which look to me as though they were made at the same place at the same time but the companies have wildly different stories. The bolsters on these knives were formed in the martinet's mold at the same time the knife was forged. They look like narrow finger-guards -- a lot less prominent than the German finger guards you seem to dislike so much. Other than that the knives don't have any bolsters at all. If you're interested, I'll give you some urls so you can at least look at the pictures. 

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

I live in New England, so to an extent I need a lobster cracker... But the real reason I like big knives is thats what I'm accustomed to. You've probably worked in kitchens that has big knives. Someone told me a while ago that consumer knives are made usually around 2" wide so that they can fit into a block - makes sense. But in the industry most of the stuff I've used has been gigantic, not saying I want gigantic, but I do like larger knives. It's what I know how to use best, and what I feel comfortable with.

As for my selections with knives, I said in an earlier post that I bought stuff I've used. When I was trying to research different knives on the internet it was very hard to find an unbiased opinion.

Although, the Misono stuff has interested me for a while... I haven't bought one yet because I've never actually seen one in person let alone used it. I went the safe route and got a Wusthof, which I'm completely happy with. However, I do want to buy a larger knife because my Ikon is only 8", so I might splurge on the UX-10 9.5".


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## boar_d_laze

Yes. It's childish, elitist, snobby, stupid, and pompous, but there's that idiot part of me which thinks anything less than a 10" chef's knife is lacking. 

Don't know about the block thing. Could be. You'd think blocks would be made to fit knives rather than vice versa, but things happen for the silliest reasons then stay that way because that's just how they are.

Length is one thing, big belly another. I want some power in a lobster cracker -- so I see the need for weight there. And for that matter understand why some people like a lot of arc. I don't like it, but I get it. 

Yes it is. Ridiculous in fact. I don't mind a little bias if the reviewer at least tells me where he's coming form, so I can discount it. The biggest problem seems to be people who need you to validate the choice the made for themselves by making the same choice. That's the main reason I don't recommend the knives I use -- at least not without a lot of encouragement. 

I'm sure someone in New England must carry Misono. Stupid advice: Check Japanese restaurant supply stores. Ask at your favorite sushi place. There are a bunch of places in NYC, if you get the time. 

UX-10 is Misono's top of the line. If you can live with that stylized bolster and total lack of "heft," you can't go wrong. Personally I prefer a 27cm to a 24cm. If you're comfortable with a German 10" cook's, you'll be comfortable with a 27cm Japanese gyuto. Because of their lighter weight and flatter bellies they point more easily. Of course you need a big board, too.

Last consideration I always try to jam into knife chat: I don't know how you're sharpening -- my India stones were fine used dry with UX-10 steel, the soft Arkansas was slow, and the black Arkansas was just okay as to speed. My HA borosilicate "steel" worked very well, and so did my old Henckels fine groove -- although the UX-10s don't need much steeling.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

For sharpening I use a norton tri-stone. At school thats what they showed me to use, so I bought one. It's easy enough and does the job quite well, but I figure for Japanese steel I should by a higher grit stone but I haven't really addressed that issue yet.


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## boar_d_laze

Higher grit and harder surface, too. Presumably you have a crystolon and two Indias, or two crystolons and an India. These will do for your coarse repair and profile; and your first sharpening surface. A soft Arkansas if you have one is problematic. A Hall's will work slowly. I don't think a Dan's or a Norton will work at all. A black Arkansas will actually work okay for a polishing stone given enough patience, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

The whole waterstone subject gets very complicated and somewhat expensive when you start considering time and money spent not only on the stones -- but on maintaining them.

I like Shapton stones, particularly the GS (glass stone) series for hard Japanese steel. You'll probably want a 1000# as your basic sharpening stone and depending on how much fish you cut, either a 4000# or 6000# to finish -- or if you become a Japanese knife nut as so many do, an 8000# to finish. There are some other options in the higher grits like lapping film on glass which you might find more attractive. It's all very complicated.

I got some Japanese knives and a pretty expensive sharpening kit last year, but my somehow they went home with my son when he went back to school. So, I was sharpening my wife's Hiromoto AS on my Indias and Arkansas stones. It was doable but time consuming. I'm not sure how AS stacks up against Misono UX-10 steel. It's nominally quite a bit harder, (HRc 63 vs. HRc 59), but carbon is a lot easier to sharpen than stainless. So ... kind of a knowledge dearth.

There's a forum pretty much devoted to Japanese knives Fred's Cutlery Forum - Foodie Forums and I think it would be a lot of fun for you to hang there for awhile. Those guys are nuts! You'll learn a lot. Almost everyone there knows 100 times more than I do about Japanese knives. Unfortunately, few know as much as I do about sharpening on "oil stones," so ... quien sabe?

(BTW, I put oil stones in quotes because I use mine dry; and fwiw, used to use water -- both of which work better than oil.)

You might also want to check out Knife Forums, Main Index - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB Tons of information on kitchen knives and sharpening.

Both of those forums have more people and a little less white noise -- if you know what I mean.

Last but not least, if you can get your hands on a copy of Chad Ward's "An Edge in the Kitchen," you should definitely take a look at it.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

So, I just bought a Misono UX-10 chef's knife, now the question is how to keep it sharp? I haven't encountered a biased knife such as this before, I don't want to sharpen, or hone it for that matter, in the wrong way and kill its beautiful edge. How would you recommend sharpening it?

Common sense dictates that I just simply sharpen it more towards its right side, but I do not want to ruin its edge by attacking it with an aggressive sharpening.

Any advice?


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## boar_d_laze

The bias is 70/30. That means the edge itself is not directly under the center of the spine (50/50) but about 1/3 of the way towards one side, and 2/3 of the way (duh) towards the other. This means the outside (right side if you hold the knife in your right hand) bevel will be about twice as long as the inside. 

Sharpen in the regular way, by raising a burr (or wire), refining it, sharpening the burr off, then polishing. You might find it helpful to mark the edges with magic marker before sharpening to keep track of the bevel lengths and to make sure the bevel shoulders track the edge smoothly. 

BTW, you can re-profile the knife to make it left handed or ambidextrous relatively easily with an extra coarse stone.

If you keep the 70/30 asymmetry the knife won't do all that well with a steel. That means you'll be correcting rolls and bends by "touching up" on a very fine or polishing stone. In the case of waterstones, that means you'll be putting a fair amount of wear on the stone you use for the purpose. If you want to steel as an easy way to maintain, you'll have to move the edge towards the center which isn't that big a deal. I would, but I'm left handed anyway. 

The UX-10 is a good enough and hard enough knife that you'll notice the difference between good and mediocre stones. You're not absolutely stuck with waterstones, but ... yeah, pretty much. The best for you -- and for most American sharpeners -- are probably Shapton GS. There are cheaper ways to go, though. Norton waterstones are decent.

Do you prefer a four stone or three stone approach?

Do you want a coarse stone for repairing and reprofiling?

Do you want to put a high level of polish on the knife? 

What's your budget?

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

Right now I just have a Norton Tristone, which is an oilstone, but I might switch over to those block whetstones. The one I have wasn't that expensive, but it works fairly well... with the school knives anyways.

Since I've been dropping some decent money on knives in the first place, I don't think it's unreasonable to get a good whetstone. Aside the point, I know a few guys with a local grinding company who will sharpen my knives professionally and give me a deal. 

I'd imagine I'd need a good whetstone for the misono's or for the shun's I own. I haven't figured out which to buy just yet, but I figure I'd go to a four stone system, and use the varying grits if the knife needs it. As for price I'm shooting for something around $200 or less for the whole package.

P.S. I looked at the shapton glass stones, and they seem to be very popular. The only noticeable flaw people have talked about is that eventually the stones have to be flattened. What would be the best way to do this? Shapton sells a lapping plate... but its roughly $279. At some point I would consider buying that, but it's a bit ridiculous considering its more expensive than the knife I'm using it for.


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## adamm

you dont need the lapping plate to flatten the stones. i have glass stones and flatten them with a dmt xxc wich is 120 grit. you can get the xc(i think) which is a 325 not as coarse and you wont need a stone between it and a 1000 and will work just as weel for a flattner. it will work as a stone flaterner plus a coarse stone. then i would go with a 1000 then 4000. youll pretty much see the max shapness off of the 4000 grit stone. if you want to get all crazy about it you can get a 8000 grit and put a mirror polish. you can get all the stones from japanese knife shapening. com he post of foodie forums and knife forums. If you get into japanse knive and im guessing you will i would check those sites out. never met him but always seems helfull with his post. plus everyone says how he putts some hair splint edges on knives if you cant get a knife sharp. and if you want to spend some dough you can get a stropping system through him and put an even finer edge on the knives.


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## chefofthefuture

I probably will get into japanese knives, I mean I already own a few and my Misono UX10 chef knife just came in so I'm going to have a lot of fun with it. The only complaint I have with the Misono is that **** biased edge, I'll probably just have the knife sent out to be ground equally on both sides. The only question is what angle I should put on the Misono, because I'm not quite sure what it can handle, let alone what _I should _do.

I checked out that Japanese knife sharpening site, and its brilliant. I might send out my Misono's to them to get the edge reground. However, I'll probably use it for a while and when it needs to be sharpened, then send it out.

As far as it goes with using stones, I'm a novice. However I am going to purchase some nice stones soon, but I would most likely go to walmart or target and buy a cheap chef knife, and practice putting an edge on it.


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## boar_d_laze

The best stones for you are Shapton GS series. They're a little expensive though, and might be something to aspire to, more than something to purchase -- for the time being. Norton makes very good waterstones. It might not be a bad idea to purchase a set, and as they wear out to replace them with others. Sharpening Supplies sells a two combi-stone, four surface set (220, 1000, 4000, 8000 ) for around $120 -- including a flattener. You'll also need a "prep" stone for the higher grits. Water Stone Kit

If you can sharpen a knife with any confidence at all on the tri-stone, you can reprofile the UX-10 and sharpen it to a fine edge indeed on any adequate waterstones.

Also, depending on the condition of the stones in the tri-stone and their grits -- you can probably reprofile the UX-10 on it just as well. A polished edge is another story. Norton's finest man made stone, the fine India, is actually pretty coarse; and their finer and polishing stones are Arkansas -- which is marginal on steel as hard as a UX-10. It will do the job, but it's very slow.

The best waterstone grit for profiling a UX-10 is around 200#, such as a Norton, King or Shapton 220#, but you can go coarser or finer (good idea if you don't trust yourself). I wouldn't want to use anything finer than a 500# Shapton GS, which is very fast considering how fine it is.

The coarsest stone, on your tri-stone, probably a coarse or medium Crystolon or a coarse India will do the profiling as well as a waterstone, providing it's not clogged or glazed.

Two other good choices are the DMT XXCoarse and XCoarse diamond stones. If you go DMT, remember to use very gentle pressure all the way through. These stones cut very fast.

Here's the technique for reprofiling: Start by marking the entire edge bevels, on both sides from front to back with magic marker -- in fact, to black (or red or blue) the first 1/2" of the blade. Then lay the knife on your coarsest stone (at approximately a 15deg angle), and feel for the manufacturer's bevel, by moving the knife in little circles, or Ws with very little pressure. When you can feel the bevel, hold the knife at that angle, and slowly and gently try to grind the magic marker off the edge. Do this on both sides until both bevel edges are cleaned.

Now compare the bevels. One is much longer than the other. If you hold the knife by the handle, the side to the right of your hand will be longer, and to your left will be (duh) shorter.

The bevel angles are the same -- in the case of the Misono, that's around a 15deg edge angle.

Start grinding the short side on the stone using circles or Ws -- and moderate pressure. Every few passes check to make sure that one area of the knife isn't moving much faster than another. Also, compare the bevels as you lengthen the short side. Don't hurry, you'll be at this for awhile.

As you work, inevitably you'll find that some parts of the knife grind slower than others. Correct that by "sectioning" the knife. That means grinding back and forth using straight up-and-down strokes so you only sharpen one section at a time. When you've got it even, go back to using your grind strokes that move the knife across the stone as well as up and down it.

Eventually you'll have the bevel you're working on will match the factory bevel. The knife is profiled 50/50. All there is to it.

The UX-10 is not a difficult knife to sharpen at all. Sharpen it in the regular way. I'd suggest polishing it to between 4000# and 6000# with Shapton, or 8000# with Norton, If you want a "bright mirror" polish, you're better off using compound on lapping film or a strop, than a stone. Stones get ridiculously expensive and don't do a much better job.

Although it's on the expensive side, I'd suggest looking at one of the EdgePro Apex kits. If you're obsessive enough to set it up every time you want to sharpen a few knives -- it's a good system with a relatively shallow learning curve.

Your idea to practice on an el-cheapo or an old beater is, of course, a good one. Some practice in holding the angle is very helpful. More than anything it's developing the confidence. Freehand sharpening isn't difficult. Not even doing it well.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

That EdgePro system looks pretty sweet, its almost idiot-proof. For $200 it isn't all that bad considering my current knife roll is worth something like $1600, and the Shapton stones I was going to buy anyways seemed to be around the same price all in all.

I suppose the real question I have is, will the EdgePro reprofile misono's any good? As well, is it good with other knives such as Wusthof, and Shun?

My only fear is that I have a perfectly good knife that I ruin through my own incompetence with sharpening it. So the EdgePro seems like the way to go until I get the hang of it, and buy a few Shapton stones.

I figure I'd buy this one Apex Kit 3 - Edge Pro Inc. unless you see a reason why I shouldn't.

Also, this is the stone I already own, except I bought it at my school's store for $80 so boo-yah. http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/No...em-P48C18.aspx


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## boar_d_laze

The Apex is a good system, and really the best of its type. You can use it to reprofile. Reprofiling and repairing are just the same as sharpening -- only with coarser stones and more patience. It takes an evening, or sometimes two to reprofile a knife by hand. Use the magic marker method I explained, and you'll see the blade take shape as you work.

A good professional sharpener can do it on a belt or wheel in about 5 minutes. Oh well. 

Yes it will work for all your knives. The weaknesses of the system are that it's a bit awkward around the tip, awkward around knives with a lot of curve (not kitchen knives, usually), and doesn't provide for a real high polish. 

It sets up easily as rod guides go, is very good on angles, and is a pretty easy system to learn. 

I hear your lack of confidence. Has freehand sharpening been less than satisfactory for you? Or, is there something else you don't like? 

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

In a nut shell, I've worked in kitchens since I was 14. I am now 23, it wasn't until I was 21 before I was introduced to my first set of quality kitchen knives. Albeit they were the standard issue Johnson & Wales kit, provided by the good folks at F.Dick.

Needless to say, they are mediocre at best.

I describe those knives as professional grade, but entry level at that. So since then I've bought my own personal knives for use. Now being I haven't had much exposure to fine cutlery or proper care for said cutlery I have been trying to give myself a crash course in knives.

I use stones, but I don't use them often. For most of my culinary experiences your standard NSF Sysco knives were the knives I used. Sharpening stones only really entered my realm of existence once I went to school.

Now that I have invested a lot of money into my own knives I feel that I need to know how to properly maintain and sharpen them. Sharpening stones are something that I will learn to use, but until then I don't want to ruin my knives in the process.

I might wind up buying that book you recommended or buy a DVD to actually show me the ins and outs of sharpening.

I don't think its that hard to learn how to sharpen properly, and with advice from these forums I think I have been pointed in the right direction.

I was also advised against re-profiling because it introduces certain problems to the knives such as skewing, and it throws off the entire knife because it the blade as a whole is engineered and ground a certain way, by grinding the edge 50/50 all it does is allow you to sharpen it with the same angle. 

Is it even worth re-profiling a Misono?


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## phatch

Unless you're sharpening on a jig to hold a precise angle, you'll gradually reprofile and convex any knife you sharpen freehand. Just the nature of freehand sharpening. And there is nothing wrong with that.

With the common crock stick type sharpener you'll also create some variance in the edge. Not enough to be a problem for most people. While you can also vary the angles with the crock sticks with a few tricks, that pre-set angle often doesn't match the factory angle either.

Phil


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## boar_d_laze

Phil, 

Some disagreements here.
A good freehand sharpener creates and maintains the profile (s)he wants. I'm good but not great, and can move the edge anywhere I want it. All it takes is a stone hard and coarse enough to move the metal -- and the (learned) ability to hold the angles and create the shapes.

To determine the proportional lengths between bevel lengths on an asymmetric bevel, like the UX-10's 15*, 70/30 edge; the ratio itself, "70/30," e.g., states the proportional relationship. The length of the bevel (hypotenuse) is a function of the sin of the given angle 75* (compliment of 15*) and the proportionality of the adjacent sides (70/30) is given. QED. Math isn't hard, it's just a foreign language. 

And, as I wrote earlier, the technique to see the edge lengths is as easy as using a magic marker. 

Flat bevels and convex bevels each have their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. unwanted convexing, at least to the degree where it diminishes the advantages of a flat bevel aren't inevitable they result from bad technique -- usually as the knife is lifted from the stone at the end of the stroke. This can be largely prevented by the simple expedience of doing it right. 

To take this a little further, I create a convex bevel, or a micro-convex secondary bevel by using different techniques than I use to profile, sharpen or maintain a flat bevel. Two ways to convex are to use the "mousepad trick," or a "strop stroke." If you strop stroke (lead with the spine and trail the edge) you will "automatically" convex the blade when it leaves the stone. Maybe that's what you meant.

More generally, nothing's perfect, especially when free handing; but there are degrees. And as long as I'm having such a good time of punning (sorry, can't help myself) on the word, "degree," is the primary area of imperfection with freehanding. Even the steadiest hand will create some variance along the length of the knife; and even the most practiced eye will miss the desired edge and respective included angles by at least a couple of degrees unless using some sort of tool and/or jig is used. You can even this out a little by referring to an ideal angle, sectioning, etc., but there are limits. That said, you don't have to be that close to make the knife work. Whether you sharpen at 15* or 12*, the acute angle will outperform an obtuse 22.5* by quite a bit.

Same as freehanding and for the same reason. The big difference is that people are more comfortable with the idea of holding a knife "perpendicular" to within a close tolerance, than they are at holding it "horizontally" on a stone laid flat on the table. 

The hardest part of good sharpening, in my opinion, is getting comfortable enough with the idea that you can do it without screwing up your knife. 

As it happens, the "crock-stick" under consideration, the Spyderco Sharpmaker, is set for 12.5*, 15* and 20* edge angles. The knife under consideration, the Misono UX-10 is factory set at 15*, which makes the Sharpmaker a pretty good choice. 

The probelms with the Sharpmaker are that it doesn't get a knife really sharp (edge < 1/2000",) it takes a lot of strokes to get a dull knife there, and its finest stick won't polish much. The limitations on sharpness are a function of deburring and common to all crock stick systems. Other ceramic crock sticks just as slow or slower. No one includes truly fine grit rods because the demand for polish isn't there with crock stick users. Diamond sticks are faster, but they scare the heck out of me because a mistake has consequences, and they're expensive but wear quickly. 

BDL


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## phatch

No freehand sharpener will maintain the same angle session to session, and there's even some variation stroke to stroke. It's just the nature of the technique and humans. Some can hold it very closely, but they still vary. Over time, that edge will become convex through this technique. IMHO, people stress out too much over holding a precise angle. Close (within a few degrees) is good enough and produces a quality working edge. The convexity isn't anything to worry about. 

It won't be as convex as a stropped edge or someone who intentionally puts on a convex edge. It's fairly well accepted principle on the knife forums such as bladeforums.com and knifeforums.com, even rec.knives on usenet.

The sharpmaker also includes slots for use as a benchstone for freehand sharpening. Spyderco sells ultra-fine rods. I have two sharpmakers I used early in my sharpening career. I got mine wholesale so they were about half of the standard retail price. They're fairly idiot-proof, but not real fast as you point out. When CI reviewed sharpeners, they were really down on the Sharpmaker and preferred the motorized Chef's Choice. To me it was clear they didn't understand sharpening well enough to get what the Sharpmaker can provide as fast as it can provide it. It's slower than some techniques but not that slow. I wouldn't let any of my knives near one of those motorized pre-set angle nightmares. 

As with free hand, the sharpener must adjust the orientation of the blade to the sharpmaker as the blade curves to keep the edge perpendicular to the sharpening stroke. This is tricky in a knife with a lot of curve towards the tip (or a recurved blade). Because of this, there is a great propensity to round off the tip with the Sharpmaker and the usual trick is to start the stroke at the tip rather than at the tang end of the blade. 

Sharpmakers won't put on a waterstone polish, but that's not necessary in the kitchen. You can, however, create a pretty amazing edge with one with practice and increasinlgy light strokes. Sal Glesser talks about this a number of times on the above mentioned forums and on the spyderco forum at Spyderco.com It's my opinion that as the swarf builds on the stones during a sharpening session, they effectively become finer and finer grit.

Most of the knife knuts at the forums deviate from the included instructions to handle the burr issue. Rather than alternating each stroke, they'll work one side to develop the burr, then the other to remove it, same as for a stone. In the chisel grind instructions, Spyderco again touches on removing the burr with a slightly angled very light stroke on the flat side. A similar technique is often employed with standard V-grind blades. 

Many people use the sharpmaker to take off the shoulder on worn knives, a form of reprofiling. They usually lay a diamond stone on the rod. The rod sets the angle and the diamond stone does the cutting. 

To me, the great weakness of the various crock stick styles for sharpening kitchen knives is that they're not long enough to use easily on long knives. 8 and 10 inch blades are much easier to sharpen on longer stones than the Sharpmaker or even than many freehand stones are. 

While I convex all my pocket knives and hard use knives, I actually do most of my sharpening of kitchen knives on a fine diamond stone free hand. It doesn't produce an edge as sharp as I can get with other techniques, but the kitchen doesn't require them. The sharpmaker does the serrations on my bread knife--which would be easier on longer stones....

Phil


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## chefofthefuture

Ok, so what does that mean in English? I think what you were trying to say to me is that one side of the edge is a 75 degree angle, and the other is a 15 degree, which is offset to one side (70/30) rather than in the middle (50/50).

If I was to re-profile the edge to a 50/50 edge, what angle should I use? I figured 15 degree angles on both sides wold work quite nicely.

All in all I can see why Misono's are known for their sharpness and edge retention, and offset edge will take more abuse that a straight edge, yet it can still achieve a high enough angle to be considered "sharp".


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## boar_d_laze

Actually, that message wasn't to you; it was to Phil who speaks trig and (hopefully) wasn't confused. The way you understood it wasn't what I meant, the knife is shipped with both edge angles set at 15*.

First: You're right that 15* on both sides is good.

Second: Even though the stock symmetry is 70/30, the stock edge angle already is 15* on both sides. The 70/30 asymmetry means the edge isn't exactly centered but pushed over to the right -- and has nothing to do with the angles.

Another thing Misonos are known for is shipping knives that are not completely sharpened. This is common in Japan, where knife shops put the final edge on for the customer. You're lucky Misono sends its knives out about 80% sharp instead of plain dull. If you're handling a knife that feels a little disappointing, that's why. The bevels are shaped, and polished, but no one's ever pulled a wire and sharpened it off yet.

You're right that with 15* on each side the knife will "feel" plenty "sharp" -- that is, as long as you keep it actually sharp. I'm really glad you put "sharp" in quotes. There's an objective definition for "sharp" related to how narrow the edge is. For a culinary knife, 3/1000" is sharp; 1/1000" is VERY sharp.

Let me give you an example. I have a 12" K-Sab carbon that I use for heavy duty stuff, like breaking chickens, slabs of ribs and son on. The knife is sharpened with a double bevel of about 20* edge angle on the primary bevel and 25* on the secondary. So, with 25* on each side, the edge doing the cutting has a 50* included angle. I was using the freshly sharpened knife to break a chicken when someone called me. So I rested the knife edge on one of the wing tips, and looked up for a second from what I was doing, I must have pulled the knife a little, because when I looked down the tip was sliced off half way between joint and end. The knife cut through the tip without any more pressure than the weight of the knife. Sharp? You tell me.

Some edge geometries make a sharp knife feel sharper, some make a knife easier to sharpen, some perform better at certain tasks, etc. A 50/50, 15*, flat-bevel edge geometry is ideal for chopping which is something you do a lot of; it's also ideal for maintaining with a steel; and has some other strengths as well.

An asymmetric edge has less of a tendency to "wedge," when you're doing thin slicing chop-stick size pieces of soft proteins, and/or you need glass smooth surfaces. For most cooks who prepare western style food, 50/50 is the ideal edge angle. If this was a dedicated sashimi knife, or even if you were the fish _chef de partie_ at a big deal _haute cuisine_, it would be a different story -- although under those circumstances you'd probably use a _yanigaba_ instead of a _gyuto_. Your UX-10 is thinner, and made with steel as fine-grained as my old carbons, most of which I sharpen to 15*, 50/50, and I don't have any trouble at all making smooth cuts on fish, 2mm slices of pork, and anything else for that matter.

Anyway 50/50 is something you'll feel confident about maintaining; and sharpening your knife after the edge has worn, and keeping your knife sharp after a few hours of whacking it on the board does more than any exotic geometry.

BDL


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## buzzard767

Hiromoto AS knives are hardend to Rockwell C Scale 60-62. Aogami Blue Super can easily be hardened in the 65 range but to do so increases the likelihood of chipping. The tougher steel at the lower hardness also makes it easier to sharpen.


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## boar_d_laze

Buzz,

Ever tried the UX-10 on Arkansas? Doable? I'd guess, as a practical matter, not.

BDL


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## buzzard767

I have not. The UX-10 has such a good reputation that I'm surprised I've never owned one. I trashed my Arkansas stones a few years ago after I started using water stones.

Buzz


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## chefofthefuture

All in all it's amazing that this thread was started on a question I had on my newly purchased Wusthof Ikon... and now its talked about all sorts of stuff, and the current debate is on sharpening.

Although I will say that this thread convinced me to buy a UX-10, and since then I haven't looked back. The knife is simply awesome, I'd prefer if it had an angled handle like the Ikon, but all in all I don't really care cause its a flawless knife.


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## buzzard767

Threads of any medium seldom produce a straight line. You have chosen a fine knife. Enjoy.


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## chefofthefuture

As a matter of fact I enjoy it so much that upon receiving my next paycheck I'll probably purchase the 10.5" slicer and the 6" petty.

I was looking for a good straight edge slicer anyways, and before I met Misono I was probably going to get this Kershaw Shun Shun Classic 12-in. Hollow Edge Slicing Knife - Kershaw Shun Carving Knives & Forks.

As for the utility knife, even though some people think they are useless... I don't. When your working in cramped spaces, e.g. on the line, you need something relatively compact that can slice through just about anything and be easily stowed out of the way. I find most of my big blades are cumbersome when stashed on station and quite frankly can cause injuries to someone who doesn't see it. Usually I hide mine underneath a cutting board, which seems to avoid most accidents, but needless to say I work with some cooks who are less than intelligent... and it doesn't surprise me to see someone still manage to cut themselves all the while screaming at me like its my fault... but thats another story.

All in all building a knife kit was something I wanted to do over the summer, because I'm making money hand over fist... something that won't keep up in the winter once school eats up the majority of my schedule. So with a decent amount of disposable income coming my way, investing in a quality set of knives and stones is something that with proper care will last me most of my life; an easy decision.

On a side note, does anyone know a decent flexible fillet knife? One of the cooks I work with, has a snazzy Global set he won from our corporation. In that set it had this Global 8-in. Flexible Swedish Fillet Knife - Global Boning & Fillet Knives which is a nice knife, I just thought I'd ask for some other opinions.


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## buzzard767

There you go. First hand experience in pushing a forum thread off topic. :smoking:


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## boar_d_laze

Chef of the Future:

If the flow at your station is like mine were when I worked saucier/saute you need a chef's, a slicer (for portioning, if for no other reason, a bread, and a petty. You don't have to justify the petty to me. Some people like having a small knife with an easy to control point and a high enough heel for chopping such as a santoku, small gyuto, or usuba. I agree with this for a home block, but unless you have a very spacious station that's getting to be a lot of knives.

When it comes to the Swedish style, you're venturing away from most Japanese manufacturers. Of those there are Global, Shun and MAC. The MAC is wonderful and cheap. Some people don't like Globals for working with raw meat because they feel the handle gets slippery. This isn't my experience, but may have something to do with the way I hold a knife and my particular hand size. Some people love Shuns. Not me, for a lot of reasons.

The shape is used by sportsmen a lot, so some of the sporting knife manufacturers make really good ones. Knives of Alaska might be the best. Rapala are very good and very cheap. The problem with the Rapapla and most other fishing knives for restaurant work is that they're made with steel which has a lot of chrome to resist salt water corrosion, but that effects performance in other areas. The Alaskas use better steel and don't have this problem. 

The Warther is a great knife. Quirky, cute, great steel. Can you live with not-quite stainless?  Everyone should have one Warther.

Forschner fibrox/rosewood is good, but not as good as a MAC. Cheaper though. 

.Then come all the German usual suspects. IMO you do a mistake to dismiss these out of hand for specialty knives -- They're very good knives and you're talking about a shape that's not going to get the use of a gyuto. Plus all of the top lines will take and hold a 15* angle.

Speaking of shapes, I use a French profile for filleting. A French profile is the same as a slicer or a utility, but is very flexible. Compared to the Swedish shape, it doesn't gut quite as well, fillets slightly better, skins A LOT better, and portions A LOT better too (both because you can run the edge on the board). I use my 10" K-Sab, which is a medium flex, for large fish. And also use an 8" "Nogent" handled fillet sold by Thiers Issard Sabatier at The Best Things. It's an excellent knife -- but carbon. I sharpen to 15*

For pure stainless function, I very highly recommend the Forschner utility shape fillet knife in the Fibrox/Rosewood line. I've had a couple of these over the years which I've used for cheese and other table uses, as well as fish. Extremely easy knife to sharpen. Sharpen to 15* 

If I were buying a Swedish style, I'd buy a Warther, an Alaska or a MAC. If I were buying a real knife, I'd buy one I already have -- Sabatier carbon or Forschner Rosewood.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

Forschner seems to be the way to go with Fillet knives. I almost completely over-looked them too. I bought a Fibrox offset serrated knife a while ago, and completely loved, so it was an easy sell to buy a fillet knife from them.

I noticed that they have a "Forged Professional" series which is described as "Made in Solingen, Germany and then polished, finished and sharpened in Switzerland. Made of high carbon stainless steel - Molybdenum/Vanadium (X50CrMo V15 steel), providing maximum sharpness and edge retention. Ice tempered to create a hardened blade that will sustain its sharpness longer and give desired effect when re-sharpened. Traditional hot-drop forging creates a superior steel product with increased elasticity and maximum internal strength." To me all that sounds eerily similar to the more well known Wusthof lines. I haven't used any Forged Professionals yet, but I figured they would be pretty darn close to Wusthof's. What do you think?


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## boar_d_laze

The Forschner Forged are no better or worse than any of the good "Germans" (which aren't actually all German). Knives in the top lines made by F. Dick, Henckels, Lamson, Messermeister, Wusthof, Victorinox and Viking are distinguishable only by handle. They sharpen the same, work the same, balance about the same, have very similar blade profiles, edge profiles, and are immaculately finished. Choose one over the other by cosmetics, your affection for a given handle, and sale price -- those are the only real differences.

There are only two types of steel popular with these jokers, X45CrMoV, and X50CrMoV. The X50 is a tiny bit stronger, but a tiny bit less tough. All the manufacturers use proprietary hardening processes, but they all net out about the same 55-57 HRc. Wusthof has the big name in the US, largely because Henckels had some quality control problems in the eighties, and lost their lead as a result. The other companies, for one reason or another, never got the market penetration and the favorable reviews. Henckels solved its problems long ago. But just trust me. 

Use a Lamson 10" chef's in a commercial kitchen for a week, then a Wusthof, then an F. Dick. You'll sharpen the same number of times with the same results. Your arm and wrist will feel the same. Your cuts will look alike. Your no. 1 pan of mirepoix times will be equal. As the friendly lady once said, "No mattah. Alla time same same." 

In my opinion, these are all excellent knives. Not my choice, no. I think these knives are clumsy and heavy. But some people like the heft, the radius, the belly. Certainly valid choices for a lot of people -- home and pro. 

BDL

PS, You mentioned you'd like the UX-10 handle offset. Are your knuckles too close to the board? I suspect a grip problem that can be rectified with a little practice. Could you describe where your thumb and forefinger go when you hold the knife?. How tight you hold your little finger when you're chopping? How much room there is for your little finger on the handle?


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## chefofthefuture

It just took some getting used to, thats all. I use the pinch grip, and I had to "choke up" on it a little before I was able to use it efficiently. The only thing I had to get used to was where to rest my fingers along the bolster, because the UX-10 has a unique bolster that likes to stick out against the natural position of my hand. Now after learning how it likes to be handled, its comfortable. In comparison to my Wusthof Ikon, I'd take a better steel then a better handle any day. It's a shame Wusthof hasn't at least attempted to counter Henckels Twin Cermax line. It'd be interesting to see them produce an Ikon like knife with Jap steel.

In all honesty, every knife needs some "getting used to". For instance one of my sous chefs doesn't like the UX-10, because he says its "too light"... he prefers his sysco knifes... a typical professional answer if you ask me. All too often I find chefs looking to get things done as cheap as possible. To each his own.


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## adamm

the closest alot of chefs come to touching there knives on stones is a diamond steel. when i first got my hiromoto gyuto the sous chef ask how i would keep it sharpened when it dulled, my response was on my sharpening stones just how i keep my wusthofs sharp. alot of chefs never will sharpen there knives or learn to sharpen.


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## chefofthefuture

So very true. In my knife kit, I have this Wusthof Hand-Held Knife Sharpener - Wusthof Knife Sharpeners I got it free one with a knife order over $99 or something like that; I actually have three of these. I gave one to my Sous chef because he didn't know how to sharpen his knife, despite his refusals saying "but you need this." When I explained to him that sharpening a knife on a stone is the only way to maintain a knife, he looked at me dumbfounded... hence my gift to him.


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## boar_d_laze

It's not just the shape of the handle and the bolster, but the blade shape too. You're about 80% there with the choke up. The rest of it, which you may already have (or not) is to relax your little finger. Your hand can arch a little more over the blade when you do.

It's weird but this will put control of the whole blade in your pinch. The good part is the edge stays long -- from point to heel, but the spine gets short because you're over the top. It also helps straighten your wrist. The point stays in line with your forearm. Shorter top line, straighter wrist, intuitive aiming = excellent point control. 

You'll also have even better control of the rest of the blade for chopping partly because you're using a softer grip, and partly because you have your hand in a power position over the heel.

Since you're working with the knife, it probably won't take more than a day or two to get used to it. It takes a home cook about three weeks to become second nature. 

Try it, you'll like it,
BDL


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## chefofthefuture

I think both of us are on the same page with this subject. I like big blades because I choke up a little, so I don't sacrifice the overall effectiveness of the knife but I do have control over it. With the UX-10 it was just modifying my current grip to suit that particular knife.


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## chefofthefuture

One of my friends is a huge fan of Shun knives, mostly because he thinks VG-10 is "Super Steel" which he thinks makes it the best knives on the planet.

I couldn't remember but someone was talking about _good_ VG-10 knives, I just couldn't remember what they were.

Also, I noticed Wusthof started expanding the Ikon line, they came out with a 10" Chef's knife as well as a few others.


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## boar_d_laze

It was probably me, and probably in reference to the Masamoto VG, which is, IMO, a much better line than Shun Classic. Actually, better IMO than anything Shun makes in western shapes.

The Ikons are made from X50CrMoV steel, which is used by quite a few European manufacturers. The steel itself is good, but not in the same tier as VG-10. Of course the handle (if you like it), overall feel (if you like heavy knives), and wonderful quality control of the Ikon line go a long way to make up for the blade-steel's deficiencies. It's such a matter of individual taste, isn't it?

While X50CrMoV isn't, VG-10 is an excellent all-round stainless for kitchen knives. And within the range of "excellent all-around stainless," it's one of the four best along with Hitachi's Gin3, Sandvik's 13C26 and Uddeholm. There are a number of qualities important to knife makers (and users), the four most important are toughness (resistance to chipping, tearing and breaking), strength (resistance to permanent deformatin, includes "hardness"), edge taking (how easy to sharpen, how sharp can it get), and edge holding (combination of wear resitance, and resistance to rolling and waving). You can intuitively see that there's a great deal of interrelationship. What makes the four "best," so good is the way they balance the four qualities at such high levels. None of the qualites are forced to give up much for any of the others.

A lot of people love Shuns. By critiquing them, I in no way mean to say that they aren't good knives and shouldn't be loved. Shuns are made by laminating a VG-10 between two layers of soft stainless in what's called _san mai_ construction. The outer layers are a damascus-look called _suminigashi_ in Japanese.

VG-10 doesn't need the complicated construction. It functions better as a naked _hagane_ (the cutting steel), without any cladding (_jigane_). The usual purpose of _jigane_ is to protect a brittle _hagane_ from chipping and tearing -- but VG-10 is fine without it. Another reason is that a soft _jigane_ is easier to sharpen than a hard _hagane_. Again, not an issue. Sometimes the core isn't stainless, so a stainless cladding makes the knife easier to maintain -- not an issue. And so on. In the case of the Shun Classic, the construction is either pure marketing, or a way of getting the _suminigashi_ pattern on the knife.

In that case, it's pure cosmetics. No performance advantage. While Shun claims it has non-stick properties, that's pure BS. What it is, is pattern welded steel with the pattern revealed by an acid etch. The pattern is very easily damaged and obscured by normal use, so for most of the knife's life it's barely visible.

Another problem with the Shun Classic is the long straight, topline and high point. This makes point work less easy than it should be -- and some very common tasks, like pre-scoring an onion before making dice, require weird angles. A knife should not get between a man and his _mirepoix. N'est ce pas_?

There's an ongoing discussion in another forum (Fred's Cutlery Forum in Foodie Forums) about different levels and kinds of "feel" you get form vairous knives and types of steels. I think the consensus is that compared to other knives in the same range, Shun's feel particularly numb. While I agree with the sentiment in spades, it's all very subjective and probably too subtle to take seriously. I've got a few other issues, but am getting awfully close to running down a perfectly good knife just because it isn't my favorite.

Like the Ikon, it's a beautiful knife with an idiosyncratic handle, and great F&F. Handle ergonomics aside, the VG-10 core makes it a better performing knife than any Wusthof -- unless you're particularly fond of the Wusthof's handling and weight. Choosing a knife comes down to weighing a lot of factors -- some totally subjective.

The Masamoto VG, like all western styled Masamotos is simply a knife without any issues. There may be things you like better in some knives, or some knives you like better -- but I've never heard anyone say anything bad about a Masamoto. Maybe not "perfect," and maybe not even "the best." But definitely, "not a thing wrong with it." If I had to replace all of my knives tomorrow, the heart of my new set would be Masamotos (although HC, virgin carbon; instead of VG, stainless.)

I'd also rate the Takayuki Grand Chef well above the Shun. And the Hiromoto G as slightly better. The Hiromoto AS uses a carbon core and really isn't comparable because of that.

Anyway, those are some of my knifely thoughts,
BDL


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## chefofthefuture

See for me if I had to rebuild a knife kit I would still choose Misono. Easily the finest knife I have ever used. 

It may not be the most comfortable for me, but it has every quality a good knife should have.

Also, I agree with your opinion of Shun. They seem to be the new "it" thing in regards to knives. They are what Global once was. The Shun's I own are nice knives, but compared to Misono and others all they are is eye candy. My sous chef looked at my knife roll and was complimenting me across the board... when he asked what my favorite was, I responded the Misono. To his dismay it wasn't the Wusthof, or the Shun, or the Global, or the Victorinox, but some knife he's never heard of.

I said quite simply, when you know what a good knife is... you'll own a Misono (that should be a slogan somewhere). 

Anywho in response to the Masamoto knives, they look fantanstic. In reviews they seem to be 1 step behind Misono as the best Chef knife you can buy (albiet it's up for debate, and they only reviewed stainless). All in all at this stage with my knife collection, I'm looking at specialty cutlery... non-essential items, but stuff that do a job so well they merit being bought, e.g. a 12" hollow edge slicer with the rounded tip, or a short serrated blade. Being my two default brands, I found the Wusthof Ikon 5" serrated utility, and the Shun 12" hollow slicing knife. Both seem to be nice, however lacking in overall quality... I know that theres something else better out there. Any suggestions?

P.S. - I've noticed you've come to love carbon knives, simply asked... why?


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## boar_d_laze

Why I love carbon knives... There's one big reason and a lot of little ones, as well as the way I hit port on my voyage of discovery.

But before getting down to it let me say there's some lousy carbon in this world, and that's not what I'm talking about. All of my core knives are antique, vintage or just plain old Sabatier from two of the best Sab makers -- K-Sabatier and Elephant (Thiers Issard) Sabatier.

Starting with the big reason -- carbon is more sensitive and feels better when you use it. Good carbon feels better than the best stainless in the cut. Stainless always feels as though you're an extra layer between you and the food. Even mediocre Japanese carbon like Hiromoto HC is comparable, in this respect, to very good stainless. Unless you're very involved with food preparation you probably wouldn't notice this. If you work pro, "fine dining" and prep a lot of fish, you wouldn't have to think about it -- you'd feel it without any question. Whether or not it would make the extra BS that goes with carbon worth it is a different question.

Then we get into some of the more mundane aspects, good carbon has a relatively tight grain structure, takes a great edge, and takes it relatively easily. Most of the better carbon steels trade a little bit of strength for toughness -- so for any given hardness, they're relatively ductile -- and this means that if they've got a symmetric European grind they can be maintained on a steel. That saves a lot of wear and tear -- plus it takes less time than truing on a stone. It also means they don't chip like some high end stainless knives. Yes, carbon requires some extra care in terms of frequent wipe downs and NEVER leaving a knife without rinsing and drying it.

Over the years, I've ended up with something of a collection. But, if I had to buy all new knives tomorrow most if not all of them would be carbons -- for the "feel."

So, here's the story. When I was cooking in restaurants in the mid seventies I ended up with three each Sabatier chef's, slicers, boners and 5" paring knives. One set I bought for my self. One set was a gift from a cousin -- when I got my first job. The last was a gift from my first head chef when I was promoted to saute. Two were K-Sab and one was "Canadian" K-Sab (same knives, different bolster and finger guard). When I moved from the Bay Area to Southern California, I bought a set of the new professional stainless that was becoming so popular -- Henckels Four Star Professional; gave away one set of Sabatier and put the other two in boxes.

I had a little catering company for a while, so it's not like the Henckels didn't see some pretty solid duty. I liked them. I liked their heft, I liked their balance. I liked the quality and comfort of the handles. I liked how easy it was to maintain them -- no polishing with baking soda and cork.

Years later, I was going through the garage looking for something and ran into those knives. I cleaned up the Canadian, sharpened it, tried it -- and my God! It was so much better than the Henckels. They were light, they went where they were pointed without thought, they were so sharp, just everything. Love.

At the time I was teaching cooking classes a couple of weekends a year, and a big part of what I had to offer was knife technique (including sharpening). That meant I was fooling around with a lot of knives, students called to ask me questions, invited me to see (and sharpen) their new knives, etc.

The difference between those old Sabs and my Henckels and all of the other knvies I was using (a lot of Wusthof Classic, let me tell you) when using them back to back was incredibly obvious. But it hadn't seemed that obvious at all, all those years before in the knife store where I bought the Henckels. (One of the reasons I'm kind of down on "trying knives at the store," I guess.)

I ended up giving the Canadians to my daughter, and keeping the K-Sabs; but I've added a few more carbons to the basic set while rotating a lot of stainless knives in and then out. Just don't like them as much. Right now I've got a 12" K-Sab chef, 10" K-Sab chef, 10" K-Sab slicer, 7" Canadian flex fillet, 7" Nogent chef (shallots and other small tasks), 6" Elephant boner, 6" petty, a 5" prototype Thiers-Issard carbon paring knife from a line they never manufactured; and a stainless Henckels bread knife that refuses to die. (I've also got a few small, special purpose Forschners on the mag bar -- along with some more carbon.)

In the meantime, I've also tried a lot of Japanese knives. A consequence of still giving the occasional cooking class -- to groups of lawyers. They (we) have a tendency to buy expensive and trendy toys. That translates as the opportunity to pick up quite a few and chop an onion or two.

The longer I've stayed with the Sabs and the more Japanese knives I try, the more I dislike the German style in comparison. Let me clarify that though. There's nothing wrong with the German style, some great knives, excellent fit and finish, I understand what people like about them, etc. It's just that lighter, more agile knives, which get and stay much sharper suit me better personally. There are some Japanese lines with such poor quality control, uncomfortable handles, or design issues that I'd much rather have an F. Dick, LamsonSharp, or Wusthof instead -- Tojiro DP, Global and Shun to name three. But to each his (or her) own. As much or as little as I know about culinary knives -- _one thing I don't know is what suits YOU_.

Along with all the Japanese stainless I've tried over the years, I've tried some newer western style Japanese carbon that I do like -- Masamoto HC and would also like to try some Japanese style knives -- but I have to order left handed knives specially and they're prohibitively expensive unless you know going in that you're going to like them. I talked to Linda about buying five or six Masamoto HC. She said, "fine," but with the proviso that "her" knives stayed on the counter. "Her" knives being my old knives with which she also fell in love.

She's got a point because we've already gone through a 24cm Hattori HD which I bought for her, and she didn't like as much as the Sabs; and three Hiromoto AS (24cm gyuto, 18cm santoku for her, 27cm gyuto for me). We liked the Hiromotos a lot -- just not quite as much as the Sabs. So, when my son asked whether they worth the money, we forced them on him. For the time being, I guess I'm stuck with knives I really dig. What a pity.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

I was wondering if the Shun Pro 2 line is any good, I was looking at the yanagiba and nakiri they have. 

I came across a lot of different brands and designs but the thing in common I saw was the price. Some of the knives I saw were over one thousand dollars.

If I am going to buy some traditional Jap knives, I'd buy stuff that gets the job done, but is noticeably cheaper. Ideally I'd go for something around the $200-$300 range, which the Shun's do fit.

The workhorse of my kit is the Misono UX-10's I own, so these knives would be there mostly for specialized tasks.


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## boar_d_laze

If you're looking at traditional Japanese designs, I'd suggest visiting Fred's Cutlery Forum and starting "Another Newbie with Questions" thread over there. http://ecsmeet2.peerx-press.org/ms_f...t_0_k1jc37.pdf They've got a lot of people who know far more about those knives than the two or three guys over here who have a clue. Amazingly few posers, for that matter. All the advice you get may not necessarily agree, but that's the nature of the beast.

My not terribly informed opinion is don't consider the Shuns for a minute. There are MUCH, MUCH better in your price range. But, definitely check in at Fred's and start asking.

BDL


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## chefofthefuture

I checked out fred's forum and for some reason I can't register to post. I'll figure it out eventually, but until then I'm still going to post here.

So BDL, I saw your post about knife sharpening advice, and it was pretty sound, I just wanted to ask how to best sharpen a Misono with its biased edge. Right now I use, a Spyderco tri-angle sharpmaker, and it works quite well... however I feel my knife can be sharper than it is.

Mostly I think its my own lack of skill with sharpening that has led to my unsatsifactory results, so I wanted to get an idea of how to correctly sharpen a biased edge.

Eventually I'll by the edgepro, but until then I'm kinda stuck with the sharpmaker.


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## boar_d_laze

I don't think there's a really good way to sharpen your Misono on an SharpMaker. You can use it as a kind of stop gap to keep it from going completely FUBAR but you'll never be able to make the knife as sharp as it should be.

Here's a link to a thread with a long post I wrote that should give you some insight into the asymmetric (biased) bevels appropriate for your Misnono... Best sharpening angle for Hiromoto AS gyuto? - Foodie Forums

The method is appropriate for rod guided systems like the Edge Pro and stones. I don't own stock in either method. Don't forget that Edge Pro is not the only rod guide -- just the best (and the most expensive).

I use and prefer stones as a more flexible system with wider application. Difficulty learning is overrated. It takes some practice, but it's no harder than learning to bone out a chicken for example. After you do it a few times you'll start getting consistent. Then fast. Then good.

That said, a rod guide system eliminates a lot of the anxiety and uncertainty in learning. Once you get the concept of "touch" down, you won't have any trouble putting an edge on, and you won't worry if the angles are right.

If you decide to go with stones, a decent set (including a flattener) which can handle all your knives, including the Misono will run you about $125. The appropriate Edge Pro system is a little more. But you can get a good Lansky kit -- not as good as an Edge Pro, but a lot better than a Sharp Maker, for a lot less.

In any case, the sooner you make up your mind, the sooner you can start enjoying that $200 knife of yours.

BDL


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## adamm

i read over on knife forums that the traditional japnese shuns are actualy double bevel were true traditional knives are single bevel. if your looking for good traditional single bevel knives the hon kasumi at epicuran edge has some good reviews about it. im going to pick some up in the next few weeks, way better than shuns but are carbon steel.


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