# Combi oven for home use



## Ben Feng

Hey guys.
Looking to get a quality combi oven for home.
We do a fair bit of cooking, especially a variety of meats, seafood, deserts etc and love trying new foods and cooking methods.
We cook for friends and family about once week (10-30 people).
Happy to spend say $10K on a decent combi, but question is what would you recommend?

Love the Rational SCC XS or the next larger model, which there's a couple options available of ex-demo or 2nd hand models for $7-10K. Massive fan of maximum control of variables and automation that it offers.

Comments on 2nd hand or ex-demo Rationals? 
Any recommendations in general for this application?
Many thanks for your help!!


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## Pat Pat

The Rational XS seems to be the most awesome choice but you may need to cook in batches to feed 30 people.

I personally wouldn't go with the secondhand. I bought the larger units first hand and already I don't find them to be perfectly functional. I can't imagine what state the secondhand would be in.


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## Ben Feng

Thanks Pat Pat
Wondering about the 61 model for better size.
What do you (or anyone else out there) find fails in older Rational models?


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## Gastrophysics

These things are costly to repair. If the 2nd hand or ex-demo doesn't come with a warranty, you may end up in trouble. Once working after transport & installation, I understand it most likely will work forever if used in a home/light setting.

My XS for home use is scheduled to arrive in two weeks, i might have more info later. We cook for 8-10 people max.


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## Pat Pat

Ben Feng said:


> What do you (or anyone else out there) find fails in older Rational models?


Nothing that the newer models fix. There're little annoying things that have been there since 2004.

Performance-wise, new or old, they're all great.


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## Ben Feng

Thanks guys.
Another question for you: do you think a 61 model Rational combi (electric) requires a rangehood/extraction in a home kitchen? Kitchen is fairly open and spacious, with 2.7m ceiling. Trying to work out best extraction options without it looking ridiculously ugly!


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## Pat Pat

You totally need the hood, unless your kitchen is open open like it has no walls or has a door that can open to the outside of the house.

The sale rep told me I didn't need any hood when I bought mine and just during the installation testing, my whole kitchen was filled with so much steam that the visibility dropped to like 3 feet max.

Since I couldn't install a proper hood due to some restrictions, I ended up having to connect a pipe to the steam vent and vent that through the wall instead.

Now I still have problems with excessive smoke when making high-temp roasts, but I don't do those often so I can live with it for now.

In conclusion, to be able to use your oven to its fullest potential, you need a hood. But if you're just going to baking cakes and cookies all day, then the hood is not required.


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## Gastrophysics

So, how did you decide? We got our XS last week and its pretty big for a home kitchen. And yes, we got an Ultravent hood to go with it 
The 61 must be huge! Also, the 61 requires a 11kW power feed...


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## Ben Feng

Still haven't decided, but after doing some mockups last week on photoshop of what the kitchen would look like with a 61 installed, we decided it was a bit ridiculous! With an Ultravent, it's one massive in-your-face contraption that looks somewhat out of proportion to other stuff around it...

Sooo... we're now thinking the XS would be better. Problem is that I can get a 12 month old 61 model for cheaper than an XS demo, so I'm just trying to persuade myself it's worth paying the extra for a smaller oven. XS will be 5 Senses model and a lot newer obviously (and a lot less install hassle - no holes in walls required) 

Other consideration is the hood for the XS - tossing up getting either the XS Ultravent or making my own. I was hoping to be able to do some light smoking in there, which I don't believe you can do with the Ultravent as it doesn't have a connection to outside?

Can you send pics of your installation?


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## Pat Pat

Gastrophysics said:


> We got our XS last week and its pretty big for a home kitchen. And yes, we got an Ultravent hood to go with it


Does the UltraVent work well? I always want to know that.



Ben Feng said:


> I was hoping to be able to do some light smoking in there, which I don't believe you can do with the Ultravent as it doesn't have a connection to outside?


There's also an 'UltraVent Plus' for both steam and smoke.



Ben Feng said:


> XS will be 5 Senses model and a lot newer obviously


You should know that the XS model is categorized into the latest generation of their ovens. The software support will be better. You will get more updates than the old 61 model; and it's these updates that make the Rational ovens so awesome.


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## Pat Pat

I've been meaning to tell you this since the beginning but I kept forgetting. There's another brand of equally good combi oven you might want to look into if you're not set on the Rational.

Their signature oven is comparable to Rational but they also have a more home friendly model you might be interested in.
http://www.lainox.it/en/prodotti/icon/


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## Gastrophysics

Pat Pat said:


> Does the UltraVent work well? I always want to know that.


Sorry for the delay, I dont know yet... Our building project is a bit late. The XS and its Ultravent have been hanging on the wall for weeks. Transporting and installing the U-shaped 5 meters+ long steel bench proved to be a challenge ;-) We are finally connecting the oven electrically tomorrow or the day after. I fear it make take a couple of weeks before we can do real cooking with it. I am a little nervous, the agent thinks we might the first family in Sweden to install a Rational XS at home.

Will keep you all posted.


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## Pat Pat

Gastrophysics said:


> I fear it make take a couple of weeks before we can do real cooking with it.


It will be worth the wait for sure.

Are you sure that's your home kitchen? It looks pretty professional especially with the pre-rinse spray thingy.


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## Gastrophysics

Pat Pat said:


> Are you sure that's your home kitchen? It looks pretty professional especially with the pre-rinse spray thingy.


We'll have green cabinet doors, wooden shelves and all kinds of cuddly things. And the rinse contraption may have to go, its a bit too big unfortunately. So it will look like any normal home kitchen (but with a combi oven, three sinks, double dishwashers, boiling water tap, siphons, sous vide stuff, chamber vacuum sealer etc to spice it up a bit  ).


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## Ben Feng

Great work!
FYI, we pulled the trigger on an XS a couple of months ago.
Best thing we ever did: absolutely love it - truly a magic machine.


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## halb

> And the rinse contraption may have to go, its a bit too big unfortunately.


Yes it is considering that tiny sink. Parts for most brands are mix and match and they do make much shorter hoses that you could just replace that one with that would make it a better fit. Hose length and spout length are parts that you may have to change to match your sink, it's done all the time.

I actually like having a pre-rinse like that as opposed to a consumer sprayer that breaks or leaks all the time.

Edit: I'm assuming that this is a commercial faucet and pre-rinse. After looking at your picture I can't be sure, especially since you are in Sweden. There are consumer faucet manufacturers that make products that mimic the looks of commercial which if that's what you have it's what you get. Period.


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## Gastrophysics

halb said:


> ... There are consumer faucet manufacturers that make products that mimic the looks of commercial which if that's what you have it's what you get. Period.


Absolutely, and sometimes the pro-looking consumer stuff is pricier! This is a pro pre-rinse, we will just try to shorten the stand and hose. (The sink is bigger than it looks, still partly covered with plastic.)

We have no ambition to make the kitchen look professional, we only focus on the practical side of things. At least, that's what I tell myself


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## Pero6

Gastrophysics, how did the instalation finish? are you satisfied? I read your previous thread also, about things and advices on what you might have missed.
I ask because my wife and I are building a new kitchen, and are also going to buy a comercial combi oven. Our pick was from Rational SCC XS and UNOX ChefTop Compact (https://www.unox.com/en/5-gn-2-3-plus). We decided on unox since it can use a normal eletrical outlet (not 3-phase), and is cheaper that rational.

Do you have any drawbacks, electricity consumption, water inlet, outlet, smoke? we planned for water inlet and outlets at the positions of the oven, but the representative said that we don't need the hood (and wo have the large stovetop hood just 50 cm from the oven).

We have also planned a smaller Breville smart oven right next to it, so i dont have to fire up the big one for melting cheese, etc.

I would really appreciate any info you might have.

Thanks in advance


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## Gastrophysics

Pero6 said:


> Gastrophysics, how did the instalation finish? are you satisfied? I read your previous thread also, about things and advices on what you might have missed.
> I ask because my wife and I are building a new kitchen, and are also going to buy a comercial combi oven. Our pick was from Rational SCC XS and UNOX ChefTop Compact (https://www.unox.com/en/5-gn-2-3-plus). We decided on unox since it can use a normal eletrical outlet (not 3-phase), and is cheaper that rational.
> 
> Do you have any drawbacks, electricity consumption, water inlet, outlet, smoke? we planned for water inlet and outlets at the positions of the oven, but the representative said that we don't need the hood (and wo have the large stovetop hood just 50 cm from the oven).
> 
> We have also planned a smaller Breville smart oven right next to it, so i dont have to fire up the big one for melting cheese, etc.
> 
> I would really appreciate any info you might have.
> 
> Thanks in advance


We are very satisfied so far but it's a bit early for a full review. The oven is large and more noisy than a consumer oven, but this is so far the only drawback. I can only compare with Miele and to some extent with Electrolux and I find the user interface more logical on the Rational and the quality and robustness is completely different.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a good source of information on how to think around the many features in practical cooking situations, a general "rational" cookbook. So far, we have mostly used the "vanilla" functions to prepare fish, meats, vegetables and we have also done some baking. Great results so far. But more googling is required...
Anyhow, its a great match with a vacuum sealer, as for instance yesterdays white asparagus  I am glad we selected a chamber model so we can use wet ingredients in the pouches.

I would be careful with the "you dont need the hood" statement. If the UNOX in anything like the Rational, it produces huge amounts of steam, without a hood, you may end up in trouble with humidity.

Otherwise, we had no problems at all installing in an ordinary home kitchen. Go for it!


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## Pat Pat

Gastrophysics said:


> But more googling is required...


Use the help function (? symbol) of the oven itself will give you more information about advanced cooking techniques than you'll ever find on the internet.

It sucks that you have to stand in front of the oven reading it though. I don't know why they don't have it in prints.


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## Gastrophysics

Pat Pat said:


> Use the help function (? symbol) of the oven itself will give you more information about advanced cooking techniques than you'll ever find on the internet.
> 
> It sucks that you have to stand in front of the oven reading it though. I don't know why they don't have it in prints.


Thanks, an amazing amount of info in there! I thought it just was the user manual but there is a great deal about cooking as well...


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## vanyaZ

Gastrophysics said:


> We are very satisfied so far but it's a bit early for a full review.


Hello!
Have you finished your kitchen already?
Can you upload a new photo?
I will be very grateful because I'm currently trying to fit a Rathional XS into a home kitchen. From what I have read so far I must also take Ultra vent.


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## Gastrophysics

vanyaZ said:


> Hello!
> Have you finished your kitchen already?
> Can you upload a new photo?
> I will be very grateful because I'm currently trying to fit a Rathional XS into a home kitchen. From what I have read so far I must also take Ultra vent.


Here is a photo from yesterday morning, just started to prepare a number of small veggie dishes:








Asparagus in the oven, artichokes and glazed onions on the stove, fennel in the sous-vide bath 

We had to struggle a little to fit everything in, placing the combi oven next to the fridge isn't optimal but works. At least we got the height rigth - it sits 120cm above the floor so the lowest grid is 141cm and the highest 164cm which works fine for adults. The general plan is (from left to right): Cupboard for recycling and packging materials. 75cm fridge/freezer (we a larger freezer i another room as well). Combi oven (yes, you need the hood). A micro and above it some lighter stuff like dehydrator and sallad spinner. The Pacojet (sadly stowed away in the corner, we haven't decided where to place it yet). By the window a double sink with a Quooker boiling water tap (great for a lot of stuff, from making tea to blanching vegetables). Under the work area right of the sinks are two small (45cm) dishwashers. That as worked out very well, despite the fact that a narrow dishwasher is a bit less efficient than a regular one. Almost everything in the kitchen except knifes and cutting boards is dishwasher proof so we run everything else there n the express programme. Then there is an induction stove and finally a third sink which (as the narrower of the two sinks by the window is adapted to hold GN trays and perforated containers for the oven).
I hoped to have some space in the far corner to fit a chiller for GN 2/3 trays but that just wasn't doable. Also, the floor tiling is a bit too dark and we are moving the kitchen island back and forth to find the right place.

Good luck with your kitchen endeavor!


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## vanyaZ

Gastrophysics said:


> Here is a photo from yesterday morning, just started to prepare a number of small veggie dishes


Thank you very much! It looks great !!!!
Unfortunately, for some reason, I can only see the picture in very small size. I do not know what the problem is, but when I click on it, a new window and message opense:
*"ChefTalk - Error *
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action." 
I'm new here and I do not know what the reason is


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## Gastrophysics

vanyaZ said:


> Thank you very much! It looks great !!!!
> Unfortunately, for some reason, I can only see the picture in very small size. I do not know what the problem is, but when I click on it, a new window and message opense:
> *"ChefTalk - Error *
> You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action."
> I'm new here and I do not know what the reason is


No idea - what happens if you are logged in to Cheftalk and click the link https://cheftalk.com/attachments/kitchen_small-jpg.65006/ ?


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## Pat Pat

Wow, your kitchen looks pretty hardcore! Very well equipped indeed.

I always thought I was the only one crazy enough to spend money on all the fancy stuff.

Now I know I'm not alone. LOL.


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## vanyaZ

Gastrophysics said:


> No idea - what happens if you are logged in to Cheftalk and click the link https://cheftalk.com/attachments/kitchen_small-jpg.65006/ ?


the same happens 
If it is not a problem can you send me the picture on [email protected] !
This will be easier. Thanks in advance!

I use the opportunity to thank you for the detailed description! Really very well equipped kitchen. I learned new things


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## rick alan

What a setup! I'll just add that my Brother uses 2 Rational Ovens with ventless hoods for his business operations, they cost $100K each, and he says worth more than double that to him. He had problems with them at first, then found out that there is only one outfit in the Boston area that has properly trained repair technicians. They repaired the errors made by other service companies.

He typically runs a combination of cooking functions concurrently in each oven, runs them 24/7 on automatic, and in the several years since finding his current service company he said he has not had any significant problems, maintenance is $5,000/year for the two, most of that for the Hood filters (the ovens are big after all, and running all the time).


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## rick alan

Just out of curiosity Gastrophysics, given the high-end appliances, what kind of knives are you using? I hope you are not going to say they are all plastic-handled NSF, but if so I recommend you post something to the Knives forum, we will help you spend some more money.


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## Gastrophysics

rick alan said:


> Just out of curiosity Gastrophysics, given the high-end appliances, what kind of knives are you using? I hope you are not going to say they are all plastic-handled NSF, but if so I recommend you post something to the Knives forum, we will help you spend some more money.


I use pretty simple mid-range stuff. As many others, I have quite a few Globals even if knife aficionados often hate them. Easy to sharpen, many different designs (i like the boning knife and the long flexible salmon knife) and feel nice if you grip down on the blade with thumb and index finger. Then an old carbon steel Sabatier and a bunch of very small plastic handle Victorinox pairing knives. The only "advanced" knife is a 30cm Yanagiba from a small Japanese maker. Love it!


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## rick alan

OK, I see no sales here, at least for the moment. ;-)~


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## rick alan

. message deleted, already noted.


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## vanyaZ

Can I ask for a little update from the owners of Rational XS? _Gastrophysics_ and _Ben Feng_ I guess....
After the time you passed, are you still satisfied?
Concerning Ultra Vent Plus does it do well with steam and smoke,
(When available) or having to run additional aspiration in the room? 
Rational sellers in my country continue to confuse me by giving me contradictory recommendations. For example, Ultra Vent must be plugged into a chimney or extra aspiration, or.... I do not need it at all.


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## vanyaZ

...just to add that, thanks to _Gastrophysic_ I already know that the Ultra vent works independently, and it is not designed to be connected to ventilation or a chimney.
Thanks again, _Gastrophysic! _


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## morning glory

Gastrophysics said:


> Here is a photo from yesterday morning, just started to prepare a number of small veggie dishes:
> View attachment 65006
> 
> Asparagus in the oven, artichokes and glazed onions on the stove, fennel in the sous-vide bath
> 
> We had to struggle a little to fit everything in, placing the combi oven next to the fridge isn't optimal but works. At least we got the height rigth - it sits 120cm above the floor so the lowest grid is 141cm and the highest 164cm which works fine for adults. The general plan is (from left to right): Cupboard for recycling and packging materials. 75cm fridge/freezer (we a larger freezer i another room as well). Combi oven (yes, you need the hood). A micro and above it some lighter stuff like dehydrator and sallad spinner. The Pacojet (sadly stowed away in the corner, we haven't decided where to place it yet). By the window a double sink with a Quooker boiling water tap (great for a lot of stuff, from making tea to blanching vegetables). Under the work area right of the sinks are two small (45cm) dishwashers. That as worked out very well, despite the fact that a narrow dishwasher is a bit less efficient than a regular one. Almost everything in the kitchen except knifes and cutting boards is dishwasher proof so we run everything else there n the express programme. Then there is an induction stove and finally a third sink which (as the narrower of the two sinks by the window is adapted to hold GN trays and perforated containers for the oven).
> I hoped to have some space in the far corner to fit a chiller for GN 2/3 trays but that just wasn't doable. Also, the floor tiling is a bit too dark and we are moving the kitchen island back and forth to find the right place.
> 
> Good luck with your kitchen endeavor!


I love your kitchen - I'm functioning in a small galley style space. Jealous!


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## Ben Feng

@vanyaZ Absolutely love it. We're building a new house next year, and intending to get a 2nd. We use it most days, for a wide range of food that we would never of dreamt of pursuing previously, although we've hardly scratched the surface of its potential. It can cook almost everything better than alternative methods. The only things it can't do is one-sided grilling (e.g. big tray of burger buns) and rapid short sear (e.g. korean bulgogi or preseared steaks for icebath). The absolute control you get is a totally unfair advantage. I used to be a massive bbq fan - I've hardly touched the thing since: why run the risk of screwing it up (especially larger qtys) when you can get it perfect every time in the Rational? Mind you, it does take a bit of trial and error to get the settings right.

Some examples of where the Rational really shines:
- Crackled pork - think perfectly evenly crackled skin all the way round a rolled pork loin (no chewy uncrackled bits), with juicy, succulent meat inside
- Ribs/pulled pork/brisket (you can smoke in it)
- Crumbed chicken and fish - perfectly crispy all round (no soggy bits), juicy inside
- Egg desserts: does perfect creme brulees with its eyes shut
- Pastries, particularly puff
- Meringues/pavs
- Pizza (300C, 2-3 mins)
- and on

With the hood - I decided that the UltraVent was too expensive and way too bulky, so i got a low-profile stainless hood made up (80mm high perhaps) that sits over the top of the oven and protrudes roughly 100mm past the front of the oven when the door is open. Extraction pipe up the back of the overhead cupboards above the oven, with a 1000m3/hr inline fan in the ceiling cavity, extracting through the roof. Is virtually silent, and works perfectly. And yes, you definitely need one - when i forget to turn it on: you get clouds of steam or smoke come out the front.
If you were to use the Ultravent without ventilation to outside, its no wonder it needs to be so bulky to pickup all the steam & smoke - seems daft to me if you can ventilate outside and have a much smaller hood (for a fifth the price).


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## halb

vanyaZ said:


> ...just to add that, thanks to _Gastrophysic_ I already know that the Ultra vent works independently, and it is not designed to be connected to ventilation or a chimney.
> Thanks again, _Gastrophysic! _





Ben Feng said:


> With the hood - I decided that the UltraVent was too expensive and way too bulky, so i got a low-profile stainless hood made up (80mm high perhaps) that sits over the top of the oven and protrudes roughly 100mm past the front of the oven when the door is open. Extraction pipe up the back of the overhead cupboards above the oven, with a 1000m3/hr inline fan in the ceiling cavity, extracting through the roof. Is virtually silent, and works perfectly. And yes, you definitely need one - when i forget to turn it on: you get clouds of steam or smoke come out the front.
> If you were to use the Ultravent without ventilation to outside, its no wonder it needs to be so bulky to pickup all the steam & smoke - seems daft to me if you can ventilate outside and have a much smaller hood (for a fifth the price).


Don't believe everything a manufacturer tells you. They may be able to condense the steam and send it to a drain but there is no way they can get rid of grease and odors without venting to the outdoors. A proper ventilation hood vented to the outdoors is essential for any kind of cooking and this goes for those pathetic combination microwave/range hoods that should be taken off the market. Matter of fact, if you cook with natural gas or propane it should be against the law to not have a suitably sized hood vented to the outdoors. You are required to have a certain sized ventilation fan in your bathroom but apparently nobody cares if you are asphyxiated by carbon monoxide from your range and oven.


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## Gastrophysics

Agree with Ben Feng. After almost a year of use, the oven performs great! Easy to use, great results and easy to maintain and keep clean. For a large household and for a few special tasks, one might want to get a conventional convection oven as well. 

Before buying a Rational XS one should note a couple of things:
- Its noisier than your regular kitchen stuff, in particular when working with in pair with the Ultravent.
- The cleaning programs are noisy - you wouldn't want to have a bedroom next to the kitchen and run overnight cleaning.
- Documentation isn't ideal. A lot of useful stuff is available only at the control panel. I would love to be able to read everything online on a laptop or pad.

The Rational XS is serious foodie stuff. For the regular home kitchen i would guess a Gaggenau or Miele is a safer bet.


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## vanyaZ

Ben Feng said:


> With the hood - I decided that the UltraVent was too expensive and way too bulky, so i got a low-profile stainless hood made up (80mm high perhaps) that sits over the top of the oven and protrudes roughly 100mm past the front of the oven when the door is open. Extraction pipe up the back of the overhead cupboards above the oven, with a 1000m3/hr inline fan in the ceiling cavity, extracting through the roof. Is virtually silent, and works perfectly. And yes, you definitely need one - when i forget to turn it on: you get clouds of steam or smoke come out the front.
> If you were to use the Ultravent without ventilation to outside, its no wonder it needs to be so bulky to pickup all the steam & smoke - seems daft to me if you can ventilate outside and have a much smaller hood (for a fifth the price).


Thanks! Is it possible to show us a picture of your kitchen with Rational XS and the hood!


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## Chojinchef

Planning on doing something similar in March. All the pieces are assembled and currently taking space in my garage. 

Using a Convotherm 6.10 easy touch oven and a 42 inch condensate hood with 4 CFM settings that vents external to my home. My oven is converted from natural gas to be propane fired, as a 3 phase power supply is not available in my area (too far in woods) and the idea of a phase converter is not viable. The Convotherm is a ‘closed system’ which means the constant steam that the Rational is always pumping out the top vent is minimized; thereby lessening the steam impact to my kitchen (until the door is opened). A unit that makes steam in the cavity versus within a ‘boiler’ will also lessen the moisture impact on your kitchen. The Convotherm is UL certified ventless, but has kitchen size parameter requirements for that certification that I do not have at home. 

Also installing drop in Garland induction units; four ‘burners’ and an induction griddle.

One thing to note for anyone contemplating this type of install - many insurance companies will immediately cut you off if they find out you are installing commercial equipment in a residence. Even though the pieces are likely all UL or CE approved, it is not the residential standards for unit construction. Check with your agent before dropping the cash. Heaven forbid anything happens, and your insurance company uses the commercial equipment findings as a loophole to not pay out the claim.


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## halb

Chojinchef said:


> My oven is converted from natural gas to be propane fired, as a 3 phase power supply is not available in my area (too far in woods) and the idea of a phase converter is not viable.


How does changing from NG to propane affect the power requirements?? I think you better check that again. And it's almost impossible to get a 3 phase service to a residence even if it's only a few feet away on the street. Power companies won't do it.

EDIT: Or are you saying that you chose a NG fired oven over electric because the electric requires 3 phase, gas requires single phase?


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## Chojinchef

The latter. Guess I was not writing clearly enough, apologies. 
Chose the gas option over electric due to that 3 phase power requirement. My municipality suggested the power phase converter as that is what my neighbor uses to power his machine shop equipment, but that’s an income producing venture rather than a culinary toy.


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## halb

Chojinchef said:


> My municipality suggested the power phase converter as that is what my neighbor uses to power his machine shop equipment,


Any phase converter that you could afford produces psudo-3 phase. You can get away with one (really as a last resort) to power 3 phase motors when all you have is single phase power and the alternative of replacing the motor is not practical or possible. But for heating loads controlled by electronics like your rather expensive oven it would not be something I would want to try, especially when an alternative was available.


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## tony brewin

halb said:


> Any phase converter that you could afford produces psudo-3 phase. You can get away with one (really as a last resort) to power 3 phase motors when all you have is single phase power and the alternative of replacing the motor is not practical or possible. But for heating loads controlled by electronics like your rather expensive oven it would not be something I would want to try, especially when an alternative was available.


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## tony brewin

We are also having our home kitchen re built. I also wanted, indeed have placed order for a Rational SCC XS. That said, it looks and is commercial for a domestic kitchen. Regardless of how “hard core chef” one is, it is home. Anyhow, I have placed order for a SINGLE PHASE Rational XS with the ultra vent plus hood. But, rather than it be in the new kitchen, I’m having it fitted in another small room we have adjacent to main kitchen. Also controllable and moniterable from mobile phone as it will be connected via a LAN port to home WI FI and my mobile phone. We have additional oven built in “The new kitchen” Our old kitchen is taken out next week and new build starts straight away. So, yes I’ve bought the Rational XS. With the hood for it but, I don’t think the “look is right for home” hence I’m having it fitted in a near by room. Also have the Rational stand to put it on.


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## Dave_Bolder

I have been using combi ovens during my whole career, I used all the brands you could ever think of, but the only brand that I used and was reliable like nothing else in the market was "Rational Combi Ovens" its German made and one of the best brands in the market today, and they come in many different sizes, in LGP/Natrural Gas or electric, I think the smallest size they do is *6 Tray combi *which I think will be ideal for you as it mostly used in small cafes, so it would be just perfect for your home.

It has self cleaning feature that makes the whole experience better for you, I have used this brand for years and I can't recommend any other brand to be honest.

I hope my answer helps. Let me know if you have any questions please.

Thank you


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## Jojoy

I keep reading and rereading these posts about installing a Rational oven in a home kitchen. Thank you all for describing your experiences! Could you please give me some further advice?
For the past year, I have been dreaming of installing a professional oven in my home kitchen and am wondering if the Rational SCC 61 would be too big. I also always have been wishing for 2 ovens, so that I could roast meat and/or vegetables, say with onions or garlic, and bake a cake or a dessert at the same time. We are now about to completely renovate our kitchen, and this would be my chance to go for it.
I use my normal Bosch oven nearly everyday for baking, roasting, grilling, more than most home cooks. We are a family of 6, and often have visitors, and for most holidays and special events, I cook for 20-30 people, on average. My Bosch definitely does not perform like it used to, and I spend hours baking in small batches because I don't trust my oven to bake evenly when I need to use more than 1 or 2 racks, depending on what I'm baking. I also often feel that this 60 cm oven is too small, although there are also times when I only bake 1 loaf of bread, or a single tray of bread rolls.
I have been thinking of the Rational XS, but I wonder if I could roast 2 turkeys or 2 geese at a time in the XS oven? A couple of years ago, I managed 2 turkeys by using my neighbour's oven, as well as my own. But that isn't always an option for me, and we no longer live near those friends.
Considering my needs and desires, does it sound reasonable to install 2 ovens -- a Rational XS and a 90 cm domestic oven, such as an Ilve or Miele?
Or would it make more sense to have just a Rational 61? Or Rational 61 and domestic 60 cm oven?
Any thoughts or advice on these matters would be greatly appreciated!!


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## Cosmozz

Gastrophysics said:


> Here is a photo from yesterday morning, just started to prepare a number of small veggie dishes:
> View attachment 65006
> 
> Asparagus in the oven, artichokes and glazed onions on the stove, fennel in the sous-vide bath
> 
> We had to struggle a little to fit everything in, placing the combi oven next to the fridge isn't optimal but works. At least we got the height rigth - it sits 120cm above the floor so the lowest grid is 141cm and the highest 164cm which works fine for adults. The general plan is (from left to right): Cupboard for recycling and packging materials. 75cm fridge/freezer (we a larger freezer i another room as well). Combi oven (yes, you need the hood). A micro and above it some lighter stuff like dehydrator and sallad spinner. The Pacojet (sadly stowed away in the corner, we haven't decided where to place it yet). By the window a double sink with a Quooker boiling water tap (great for a lot of stuff, from making tea to blanching vegetables). Under the work area right of the sinks are two small (45cm) dishwashers. That as worked out very well, despite the fact that a narrow dishwasher is a bit less efficient than a regular one. Almost everything in the kitchen except knifes and cutting boards is dishwasher proof so we run everything else there n the express programme. Then there is an induction stove and finally a third sink which (as the narrower of the two sinks by the window is adapted to hold GN trays and perforated containers for the oven).
> I hoped to have some space in the far corner to fit a chiller for GN 2/3 trays but that just wasn't doable. Also, the floor tiling is a bit too dark and we are moving the kitchen island back and forth to find the right place.
> 
> Good luck with your kitchen endeavor!


Hello Gastrophysics,

I'm very very very interested in installing a rational xs in my kitchen but i have limited space for it. 
My local dealer doesn't have the wall mount on stock so I don't know the full depth of the oven.

Can you help me out with full depth in cm/inches from the wall to the front of the handle? 
Really trying to squeeze this into my kitchen.
I would be forever grateful


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## halb

https://www.rational-online.com/med.../en_sg_1/en_us_spec_sheets/SCC_Model_XS_E.pdf

https://www.rational-online.com/en_...?category=6721&locale=en_us&lastSelectionBox=

They don't give dimensions for it so I would give them a call and ask. Looks like maybe between an inch and two.
RATIONAL USA Inc.1701 Golf Road, Suite C-120, Commercium
Rolling Meadows, IL 60008
888-320-7274


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## Gastrophysics

Cosmozz said:


> Hello Gastrophysics,
> 
> I'm very very very interested in installing a rational xs in my kitchen but i have limited space for it.
> My local dealer doesn't have the wall mount on stock so I don't know the full depth of the oven.
> 
> Can you help me out with full depth in cm/inches from the wall to the front of the handle?
> Really trying to squeeze this into my kitchen.
> I would be forever grateful


Just checked - from the wall to the tip of the handle adds upp to 71 cm. The handle is 7 cm deep so 64 cm from the wall to the oven front.

Its a lot, the wall mount tubing is 4 cm thick and there is an additional 4.5 cm air between the mount and the oven. But all that is necessary to make room for the pipe connections. I don't think there is much flexibility in how the oven is placed on the mount.

Good luck!


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## Cosmozz

Gastrophysics said:


> Just checked - from the wall to the tip of the handle adds upp to 71 cm. The handle is 7 cm deep so 64 cm from the wall to the oven front.
> 
> Its a lot, the wall mount tubing is 4 cm thick and there is an additional 4.5 cm air between the mount and the oven. But all that is necessary to make room for the pipe connections. I don't think there is much flexibility in how the oven is placed on the mount.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you for the quick response. 
I CAN DO IT!! I have 75 cm. Thank you thank you thank you! (I have 75 cm to the outer edge of a door) 
I will arrange water connection and waste through the wall. 
Again thank you for assisting me with this.


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## eug99

i want to thank everyone on this thread. It gave us heaps of inspiration and knowledge that installing a rational combi oven in a residential home would be a possibility. 

That being said, it still has taken us 3 years to finally locate an installer in Southern California that is able to install , certify the installation & provide on-going support for the oven.

Once we made contact ; the entire process took approximately 45 days from site survey to finalizing an order to shipment and install.


Anecdotally - according to Rational USA , only 2 in the over 44K installs last year were in a residential setting. That being said, Rational is aware that there is increased interest to have combi ovens be installed in residential environments & they could be working on an offering.

We compared Miele , Gagganeau as an alternative to a Rational XS. Miele comes in around > USD $5-6K for the equipment and rather small 24" cavity. We did also come across a Dacor range that was > $15K but had a combi steam oven as the secondary smaller oven. All makes would would require pulling a new 240V , 50 - 70 AMP circuit ; water inlet @ a specific PSI & drainage. Given the fact the electrical , plumbing work would be relatively the same ; we chose to go with a Rational 61 for better capacity. Although the XS is a phenomenal footprint, it uses GN 2/3 pans which were quite small. No issues for portioned proteins but you would have a hard time fitting in a sizable turkey into the XS. 

We went with an UltraVent Plus (cooking proteins) , Rational icombiPro 61 (240V / Single Phase Power / 70 Amp circuit) & a Rational cart to store the various pans. The entire setup fits in a standard bottom mount refrigerator well . We had a bertazonni 36" fridge / freezer column in the space and the entire rational setup fits snugly in the cavity. 

Will update the post as we crank out a few meals with the oven. And yes the Ultravent can be a bit noisy to operate. But a small inconvenience for everything else that the oven is able to do . I strongly recommend a rational for anyone thinking about a combi steam oven. Good Luck !


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## longpvo

Does anyone know if the XS can fit half sheet pan (13x18")? I have checked all of the literatures and it seems that the newer iCombi Pro XS Datasheet says it can load 4x half sheet pans while the older SCC XS Datasheet doesn't. Even though both XS models from North America (US/CA) share the same hinging rack.










(Rational 60.74.331 7 Shelf Hinging Rack)

Hinging Rack, (7) racks, offset levels, maximum load (4) half sheet pans, (4) 1-1/2" deep 2/3 GN or (3) 2-1/2" deep 2/3 GN pans, for SCC/CMP XS (Note: this is the standard hinging rack that is included with the XS models).

All other markets use the 11 Shelf Hinging Rack instead (Rational 60.73.724)


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## eug99

Unfortunately Not. as you mentioned in the post above ; The XS will only hold GN 2/3 pans (13.75 length x 12.75 inches width) 
The Rational ovens all utilize the Hotel Pan Gastronorm Sizes as opposed to residential home standards of 1/2 size or Full sheet trays. For comparison The 2/3 pan is slightly larger than a pan that would fit into one of the countertop wolf , breville ovens. 

As the cavity of the oven have rails ; you will need to make sure the pans are accurate to fit on the rails. 

We found the 2/3 pans too small to hold full size proteins ( i.e a full turkey bird ) thus ,we opted for the Rational 61. Still the XS is still larger than the 24" Miele XXL Steam Oven. Good luck


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## longpvo

I have finally fitted an SCC XS in single phase in our residence (we have private booking dinner function).

Didn't take much work than a second person to do the lifting. Next up is a condensation hood that is connected to outdoor exhaust blower fan. This way it's significantly quieter than running the UltraVent indoor.

What I have discovered is as mentioned in previous query, the XS can fit half sheet pans (18x13 in) easily. I designed and got a local exhaust hood shop to fabricated a new hinging rack that can accomodate 6 half sheet pans. Mind you the XS cavity isn't ideal for those average dutch oven braises or bigger than 9" frying pan recipes.

































I can possibly arrange a group order for such rack support if enough interest.


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## dyungim

Gastrophysics said:


> Here is a photo from yesterday morning, just started to prepare a number of small veggie dishes:
> View attachment 65006
> 
> Asparagus in the oven, artichokes and glazed onions on the stove, fennel in the sous-vide bath
> <snip>


How has your kitchen turned out over time? Would you change anything about the layout? Where did you end up putting the island in the end?

If you ever have time someday, it would be really cool to hear how each of the spaces in your kitchen is used and how the workflow generally travels through your kitchen.


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