# Best handles for a paring knife? Help!



## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Help me design a handle for a paring knife!

This is a longtime pet project of mine, as I'd like to learn the decorative knife skills that made my dead grandfather famous (Fujian style, he was scouted to Japan). 

I've tried to learn for years, but been stuck with $1 crap from Safeway (what mom had). I couldn't justify a $140 powdered steel Artisan paring knife from Japan woodworker, but couldn't find another that "feels" right.

I'm at the point where I'm ready to just make my own "perfect" paring knife. I have prewar molybdenum paring blades from the F Herder (couteau d'office, exceedingly thin blades). I have desert ironwood, ebony, walnut, and Brazilian rosewood (I dabble with building guitars). 

However, I've never had a decent paring knife.

Is there any one that you'd recommend?
Alternatively, is there a cheap one with a great handle that you like?

I'm aiming for the best "feel" for one with French technique.

I'd especially love BDL's thoughts.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

What about some picks of the blades? That could help.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I'll send it tonight.

Thanks!


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Here are my favorite paring knives (I'm working on a vintage Sabatier carbon paring)

Left to right - the first three are by Delbert Ealy, the Wharncliffe is by HHH, next is a Shun Classic "D" shaped handle and last is my turning knife - a Tojiro bird's beak I made a custom handle for. Gives you an idea.





  








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mike9


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May 7, 2014


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Sorry for the delay.





  








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matt lau


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May 8, 2014








A messy pic from my smartphone.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Well the handle aside, what really makes a pairing knife is the thinness of the blade behind the edge.  I ground mine down to .005"/0.12mm.  I tell you that whether you're carving, sectioning or just digging a dark-spot out of a potato you can really feel the difference.

Rick


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

The rat tail tang is very, very thin. I'd say it's less than .12 mm--but my Mitotuyo caliber just died.

The stamped blade is thicker--too thick at .2 mm.

Aarg! It's tough to get .01 mm accuracy by eyeballing! I can round to .1 mm due to work.

Both blades are very springy, very live feeling.
The rat tang is superior IMO.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

The Nogent rat-tail handle idea is also good for me. It fits pretty well the retro look of the blade, looks comfortable enough and it seems not so much difficult for a first re-handle project.





  








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ordo


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May 9, 2014


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> Please be aware that the original Nogent ebony handles were quite delicate. The tang ended with a little screwed bullet, allowing to fasten the handle. The ebony was bored down with a large diameter, leaving just a fine layer of wood. As Bernard Levine wrote: they look solid, but they're not.


Rough the tang with 220 sand paper cleaning with alcohol before and after, drill only as big as you need, fill with epoxy. With 1 hour laminating epoxy you can let it soak into the wood for 30min then assemble. That will not likely every behave _fragile_ regardless of use, at least not in your lifetime. Epoxy and Teflon fortified lube are the solution to half the world's problems, duck tape of course takes care of the rest. ;-)~

Rick


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Epoxy and Teflon fortified lube are the solution to half the world's problems, duck tape of course takes care of the rest. ;-)~
> 
> Rick


Well said indeed 

Shall we get into the specifics of which epoxy, Teflon, and duct tape? Lol.

Maybe because I'm near the ocean and there is plenty of salt in the air etc but I have to add rust converter, cold galvanized aero, and SS particulate paint, and these combined with the earlier 3 items cover 90% of everything lol.

On the handle topic I liked the HHH and somehow the Tojiro even though the finger hold looks like it could be either a blessing or a curse


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Well said indeed /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
> 
> Shall we get into the specifics of which epoxy, Teflon, and duct tape? Lol.


Actually, in all seriousness, years ago this would have been an issue, but:

As epoxy goes even the crap you get in syringes at the local hardware store nowadays works pretty good in my experience, though it is too thick for filling slim cracks. MGS is arguably the best laminating resin you can get, at least without a minimum order. Ebay has a few LE's that are inexpensive and come in small sizes. Feel free to PM me if any of you have doubts.

All Teflon lubes are about the same. They all use the same DuPont or ICI Teflon submicron powder, along with a mineral or synthetic base oil/grease, though some do add a bit of ceramic powder to improve mechanical adhesion and high-load performance.

As for duct tape, 3M of course.

Lenny you'll have to excuse me for generalizing in not making adjustments for environmental-specific considerations, and such.
For a pairing knife handle, despite my huge mitts, I prefer just a slender coffin-shape. Easy to flip between cutting towards and away. The old Deluxe Personna is a good example, but even slimmer is good. The DP added a metal cap so you'd always have a handy garlic smasher, though I would be more likely to use it driving a loose nail, if I used it at all.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> Any idea how an almost solid ebony handle will affect the balance?


Personally, I want all the weight to be in the handle of a pairing knife, just so it stays in my hand.

Rick


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I was going to split the wood down the middle, and inlet the handle for as close a perfect fit as possible.

For epoxy, I'll be using Marine grade epoxy (bought for a bamboo bike project).

For wood--ebony? Ironwood? Sounds like heavy, dense and stable?


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Btw, I just got a Canadian Massif Sabatier from eBay--10" chef knife.

Is the handle similar to the nogent?

-Matt

Ps. On a side note, it feels quite limiting compared to my Chinese chef knives---better than the Henckels though!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

*Best* handles, IMHO are Unicorn antler scales fastened with unobtainium rivets.

A paring knife, for me is a workhorse. I've lost many in piles of vegetable peelings, dropped many down floor grates, managed to leave a few on baking trays and "baked" them long enough to royally screw the knife up. I use them to slash open boxes, cut, trim, bone out quail, and a zillion other duties.

As a Chef and employer, I buy them by the dozen and ensure my staff have one. After giving two or three to the same staff, I end up selling them for the same price or cheaper than what I paid for them.

For me, a deluxe paring knife kind of compares to a $500 gold fountain pen with a hoity-toity nib pen--Why bother? You'll just lose the thing if you have on your person every day. You can lock it up and only use it for special occasions, but then 99% of the time you'll be using a cheap one to do all the stuff you normally need to do with it, so again: Why bother?


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I just checked the Sabatier Canadian Massif with my mom.

She thought the handle was a bit thin and small (for a chef knife).

Bear in mind that we're both used to Chinese cooking (think Martin Yan).

Has anyone tried the OXO professional paring knives?

Ironically, it's easier to buy a really great knife than to make a perfect one.

However, I've customized my tools in the past--I'd rather have one perfect knife than mediocre ones.

If this project turns out good, I may get some better blades and rehandle them.

Any thoughts on the dojo paring knives?  

They seen like sharp blades with crappy f&f and uncomfortable handles.

Alternatively, I'm thinking of commissioning O1 steel blades from Jim Wester of NorthBay Forge.

In any case, I plan to visit Bernal Cutlery on Tuesday to check out NOS nogent paring knives.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

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matt lau


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May 10, 2014


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

FWIW, I'm totally an amateur.

I don't need to worry about my knives walking off.

I won't worry about abuse, dishwashers, etc.

My blades are sharp.  Nobody dares to handle them without respect for the blade.

This is more a labor of love---a completely impractical waste of time and money.

However, it'll be a knife that I'll use a lot...not a drawer queen.

In my kitchen, I use 2 knives exclusively: Carbon Chinese chef knife and a sheepsfoot herder with a crude walnut handle.

I also have a Lee Valley Peasant Chef knife which is pretty nice, but limited compared to my Chinese chef knife.

I'm the minority here, but I vastly prefer the Chinese style knife over the Sabatier.

As for paring knives, I think the Europeans and Japanese are way better.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I'm planning on returning it to the seller as the 1 5/8" of blade is very bent. The F&F are also lacking as part of the handle is melted?!It very much probably isn't a Canadian or Massif Sabatier, but probably is a TI (**** elephant on handle).Anyways, I'm probably seriously over complicating things. A $7 Vic or $10 Opinel may work perfectly fine. Meh.I guess that I'm just an obsessive perfectionist.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Matt there is something to be said for an item you've put some hours of your time into, either designing or creating.  Even a thoroughly unexceptional stamped-stainless blade becomes a thing of adoration when you've made it all it can be for you.  It can even replace for you what would have cost hundreds more.  For a while anyway, ahahaha!

Rick.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Rick,

You're right.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that I've just enlisted a really good blacksmith to forge me some blades in W1 steel!

If this little project goes through as planned, I may buy a Nogent NOS paring knife and replicate it with better materials--better blade at 12 degrees; better handle; and hopefully better fit and finish (that's up to me!)

Any idea about ideal length?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Matt Lau said:


> Rick,
> 
> Any idea about ideal length?


Goodness Matt but for a doer it seems your distrust of your own judgment goes a little too far. Just do let us see it when your done.

Rick


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Sounds good.

This will be v1.0

If I fall in love with a Nogent Sabatier tomorrow, expect v2.0 in 2015.

A part of me hopes to just fall in love with a wa- petty instead. It'll be far cheaper for me to just buy a Konosuke HD2 than one of the v2 knives I have planned.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

My thing would be for mostly non-board work.

For board work (including skinning vegetables), I use my trusty Chinese chef knife.

What would be considered a good price range?


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Matt Lau said:


> ... I have prewar molybdenum paring blades from the F Herder (couteau d'office, exceedingly thin blades)....







  








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May 13, 2014








There is no better pairing knife that an original Robert Herder from Solingen. Mind you, Robert Herder, not F. Herder or whatever, they are far from the same!! I'm talking about the original knife known in Europe as the "windmüllenmesser" referring to the windmill on their blades. Incredibly thin knives famous as such; the unique "dunschliff" as the Germans call it. They are now available in "rostfrei" too (stainless), but the original carbon like shown here is still unbeatable. I'm 64, but my grandmother swore by her Herder knife and I know that most of our homecooks and professionals still prefer a Robert Herder. Price; 10 €.

Even if the Herder knifes are far superior in cutting ability, I like nicely designed knives. Here's my favorite too, a Saiun with an excellent micarta handle. VG10 it is. From JCK.

A combination of the Herder blade shape with the Saiun handle would be a killer knife!


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Beautiful knives!

I had a Robert Herder Windmüller paring knife, but I have it to a friend after putting a handle on a Freidrich Herder blade of the same shape. The knife was ugly as sin, but very comfortable. I'm embarrassed to post a pic. 

I believe that F. Herder was a main branch of cutlery from which R Herder branched off recently. F Herder ceased to exist after the Allies bombed them out of existence during WW2.

I won't pretend to be an expert with cutlery, but I have an affinity with sharp things.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Sorry: windmüllenmesser.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I just stopped by Bernal cutlery and spent an hour handling knives and petties.

For some reason the Ashi Hamono Ginga 100 mm felt sublime. The nogent parer was a bit blocky and crude. The nogent chef knife--much more comfy.

I also found that I really like wa handles.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Do you know puukko knives? Here're some original handles that could fit your F. H. blade:

PUUKKO

This is a variation i like:





  








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ordo


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May 14, 2014


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

The Nogent is so comfortable its unreal. I think you are going to like it for sure! Mine is well my baby!


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

@Matt Lau If you're planning to make your own pairer, it might help to nose around on the following webpage about a Belgian artist who made a lot of art pieces. I'm sure you'll be blown away with pictures like these;





  








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chrisbelgium


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May 14, 2014







I'm showing this one just for fun.





  








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chrisbelgium


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May 14, 2014







Talk about handles!





  








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chrisbelgium


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May 14, 2014







This one was made for Peter Goosens, a 3 Michelin star chef (restaurant 't Hof van Cleve)

There are plenty more to sharpen your appetite here; http://www.knifeforging.com/patattenschellersBlog.php

The name "patattenschellers" is flemish dialect and means potato peelers. Enjoy!

@ordo There's a website that has some of those for sale. Look under "knives" https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

These guys also have a lot of material for making your own knives.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Pretty fancy!

I've found that I like the profile of the old Nogent parers, but not the handle (at least of the 2 3/4" parer). It felt square, cheap, and light (in a bad way).

I may have just handled a bad nogent parer, but I found the ginga handle to be perfect (and ended up spending 3x more for it).

Regarding the puuko tradition--I'm definitely thinking of doing one if my mentor ever shows any interest. He's very Norwegian dentist, and rarely asks for anything. It'll be dressed in Arctic birch.

Anyways, I just need to find time to get these done.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

True. Adaptability is a human virtue.

I'm just going off my intuition of what feels right. I'm sure trained hands would be different.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Actually, in all seriousness, years ago this would have been an issue, but:
> 
> 
> As epoxy goes even the crap you get in syringes at the local hardware store nowadays works pretty good in my experience, though it is too thick for filling slim cracks. MGS is arguably the best laminating resin you can get, at least without a minimum order. Ebay has a few LE's that are inexpensive and come in small sizes. Feel free to PM me if any of you have doubts.
> ...


rick I agree, and only thing I would add is that it's the amount PTFE powder and what is used for the base and additive lubricant that makes the difference.

And yes the epoxies have come a long way, and some of the consumer products today are as good as the commercial ones of the past. Still a PITA to get the good stuff in small quantities as you note.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Benuser said:


> Square, cheap, light...
> In knives, don't trust your first impression. It says more about what you're used to than what you're actually handling. That blocky light ebony is extremely comfortable after getting used to it.


Well said


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Btw, the 3.5" blank I got off ebay impressed me a lot.

The profile is excellent!

OTOH, at another forum (the Neanderthal section of Sawmill creek)--I've been advised to stick with Japanese steels for best results.

Regarding handles, I still stand by my subjective assessment. Perhaps some Nogents are incredibly comfy (like the chef knife). The *one* nogent 2.25" parer wasn't comfy.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

Sorry--not clear--I only got to try one nogent parer.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser said:


> Square, cheap, light...
> In knives, don't trust your first impression. It says more about what you're used to than what you're actually handling. That blocky light ebony is extremely comfortable after getting used to it.


Yes, it is basically a coffin-shape, with the great addition of a nice slim round ferrule, I would just lose the hook at the end. Does it do anything but get in the way here?

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes for a chef knife or slicer, but a tiny handle-heavy parer?   It seems to me the coffin shape offers overkill stability already, well at least I could do without it.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting stuff on Robert Herder, with videos:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?6,23797

Apparently their parer is silly-thin at the edge, and their knives in general compare favorably in geometry to some of the better Japanese. Very interesting old blade profile shaper with a very manuverable adjustable rocking bed. But I was aghast when, after seeing all that low-temp hand grinding on leather wheels and water drenched wheels, a guy finish sharpened their spreader knife on a high-speed dry grinding wheel throwing sparks! They did do some decent sharpening with belts elsewhere in the factory. Amazing they can still turn a profit doing everything by hand, low facilities overhead I guess.

Rick


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Benuser said:


>


I will shamelessly steal your idea! However, as a peeler, this odd little thing seems to sharpen itself when using it mainly for peeling potatoes. Maybe the sand sticking to the potato skin does that?


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

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matt lau


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May 28, 2014







Nice!

Here's mine--pardon the ugly scales, my first attempt at re handling last year. It's still not truly sharpened, but cuts about as easy as the $125 petty I just bought!

On a side note, has anyone tried the R Herder K2?
My mom really liked my Lee Valley peasant chef knife because of it's lightness and nimbleness (compared to her mass produced Chinese chef knife).
At 1.6 oz, it looks like a truly nice knife for a lady.

-Matt

Ps. I won a Nogent Sab from eBay. My gripe with the NOS nogent was the sharp unbeveled corners of the handles. Ever a 1 mm bevel would immensely make things nicer!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

For a hardy chuckle take a look at what some folks are asking for RH knives on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrobert+herder+paring+knife&_nkw=robert+herder+paring+knife&_sacat=0&_from=R40


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

You should see the Amazon Japan prices.


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I got the Sab in the mail.

Man it's comfy! Too bad that the tip is so bent that it's unsharpenable, and possibly unusable. The handle seems to be POM.

Part of me wants to return it, and buy a NOS nogent.

It has the most comfy handle of any parer I've tried including the Ashi Hamono. It feels "right."

A aargh! I wish it was usable without risking snapping the blade!


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

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matt lau


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May 31, 2014


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

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matt lau


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May 31, 2014


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## matt lau (May 7, 2014)

I'll send it back Monday morning.

Before that, I'll make a silicone mold of the handle.


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