# Choosing a Commercial Range



## tallbox (Aug 3, 2015)

I am writing a piece on commercial ranges both for restaurant use, and for home use.

What subjects are important to have in this article?

Anything goes here, simply what is important to you on this subject?


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## tallbox (Aug 3, 2015)

Also please state what setting you use commercial ranges in, restaurant, food stand, catering, home use etc.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Just want to add

*1. Residential* can go in* Commercial*. *2. Commercial* usually can't go in *Residential*

*1.* This will usually result in premature death. Sometime needs and energy adaptation.

*2*. Usually will need a different energy source. Gas and Electric. Major heat concern, they emit a lot of heat . They are not insulated like ...residential.


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## tallbox (Aug 3, 2015)

When you say residential can go in commercial. Do you mean you can use a residential range in a commercial setting? Meaning it is possible, but am I guessing it is more un-reliable? When you say you can not use a  commercial range in a residential setting, that is because of the heat released, and possibly insulation issues on the side? Thanks!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

May I suggest looking at a few commercial range sites (Vulcan, Garland, Southbend, US range,  etc) to seejust exactly what a commercial range is all about?

Let's take a typical commercial range, a 4 eye (4 burner) with an oven underneath.

Each burner puts out  a minimum of 28,000 btu's, with some models as high as 35,000.  I know of no residential range that goes above 22,000 btus.

Then the oven has an additional 30,000 btu burner.

So, theoretically, a 4-eye range can consume 150,000 btus per hour.  This means a larger gas line--usually what's called a "one pound (lb) line" for commerical applications.  Most residential applications only have a "one inch" gas line, which is not sufficient to feed a commercial range.  In addition, if one were to hook up a commercial unit to residential gas line, you might affect gas delivery to many other homes in the immediate area.

Assuming you had a commerical unit in a home, you would need a lot of air to feed that much firepower, and of course, assuming that you ran all four burners, you would put out a LOT of heat into your kitchen, not to mention grease/oil mist from frying pans, or water vapor (steam).  Most residential kitchen ventilation is a pathetic farce that couldn't handle a drunkard's beer fart.

In addition, commercial units have lousy insulation compared to residential units, and most commercial factory spec's require at least 6" away from any walls.

But here's the kicker:

Check out the pricing on a plain-Jane 4-eye commercial range, and it will be under $2,800.  Most halfway decent residential units that don't have burners made from recycled beer cans start at well over $3,500 and go up, up, up, dramatically.

Does this help?


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## tallbox (Aug 3, 2015)

Wow. There is some data in there I could not find anywhere. What size gas line comes in on a commercial range setup? And you are saying, not surprisingly, that residential range manufacturers, and distributors, sell the same thing for a much higher cost, correct?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

No, no. The gas line is what you supply---it's part of the infrastructure of you house, or business.

Look, the most important part of a range is the burners. Commercial ones are heavy cast iron, and a large surface area. The grates (what you rest your pot on) are also heavy cast iron. Solid. Bomb proof. Meant to be taken apart, doused with oven cleaner, scoured, and put back to heavy use again. The oven can accept a standard 18 x 26 inch sheet pan.

Now, trot down to Sears and kick some tires. There are only two categories of gas ovens, those under $2,000.00 and those over. The cheap ones have piddly mousefart burners of under 12,000 btus, made of stamped steel and have a flame spead of under 8"? The grates are porcelainized steel, which are weak, and the porcelain will crack and craze within weeks, same for the drip pan.

Now the ones over two grand will always have a stainless steel skin--big deal, its only cosmetic. The burners will be cast iron, but thinner and weaker than commercial quality. The grates should be cast iron, but again, thinner and weaker than commercial, and will crack or break if you drop them when you clean. Usually the residential ranges will have a convection oven, but this is a pretty lousy convection oven. For serious dollars you can get all kinds of upgrades, check out Wolf or Subzero brands. Rember this one piece of advice: any electronics or computers or ovens or stoves will usually fail within two years, and repairs are expensive. The best ovens and ranges have manual controls.

Now trott down to restaurant equipment store--you're writing a piece, right? Don't take some guy from some chat forum's word. Check out the restaurant supply stores, and take a peek for yourself. Verify the prices, and specs for dead space around walls and btu output.

Hope this helps


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

I have a Southbend range - six burners, two ovens, griddle and salamander.  Commercial hood too with a restaurant fan in the basement piped outside.  It's tucked into a wall that is tile over cement board on steel studs with fireproof insulating bats and a tile floor.  I have a 1/2" LP line feeding it and it works great.  You get more BTUs from LP than natural gas.  It's probably 30 years old and works like a champ.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

Another problem is that even if you did construct your residential kitchen like a commercial kitchen (with the proper hood, ventilation, make-up air, floor and wall materials, etc) so you could use a commercial range most codes would not allow it and you would be hard pressed to find an insurance company to insure your house. Probably the only way around that is to be in an area zoned for retail/commercial and start some kind of business where you could justify that kitchen. 

I have a big problem with the price difference and quality between commercial ranges that start at around $1500 and residential ranges that start at $3500. I realize that a residential model has to be zero clearance (better insulated) and meet consumer safety requirements. But that should not double the price or more. I think the problem is that these "commercial style" residential ranges are promoted as high end or luxury and marketed to the affluent crowd where money is often no object. I would really like to see a manufacturer like Viking, Wolfe,etc take one of their commercial range lines, minimally modify it to meet consumer safety standards (suitable insulation, push to turn knobs, smaller burners, no standing pilots) and price it to sell starting at around $2,500 or less. Absolutely NO electronics, not even glass in the oven door.


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## freddie2 (Jul 26, 2009)

I own an old South Bend six burner with griddle, so 60 inches, and two ovens which I've operated in a loft, albeit very large space, for years. I love it. I did a firewall to code and a quilted stainless wall behind and a commercial hood so it's just like a commercial kitchen. Once 10 years ago had to have a guy come out and replace one oven thermostat, but no problem but it does give off heat. Due,to,the,pilots, but we also have a lava rock grill and a commercial wok, so it's fine. The gas line is the commercial size from the street which we put in when we were designing, and we're on the top floor so the hood can go to the roof. Lots of exhaust and leave the kitchen not too well I nsulated with a draft (through the freight elevator) and you've got a great kitchen!


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## freddie2 (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh btw, I put in ss tabco tables on either side so there is no clearance problems with the poor insulation.


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## cgriffin (Sep 30, 2016)

I am researching installing a commercial Southbend range in a home I am building currently and can tell you what I have learned from the dealer and the city as well as the insurance company.

City, Cedar Park Texas --- There is no requirement other than to meet all manufacturers instillation requirements and have a class 1 hood installed with active fire suppression.

Insurance company, USAA --- Same as above with no other requirements except one. If it is to be used for a commercial business in a home it requires carrying policy suited to a commercial operation (B&B, rental kitchen, popup restaurant) rather than a residential one. This policy also dictates inspection cycles on the hood, stove and fire suppression and yearly certification.

Dealer, Southbend --- If it is to be installed in a residence without a commercial operation or intent the warranty will likely be voided. This would necessitate any part and labor be paid for by you though the official Southbend repair technician would still repair it. It requires a larger gas line, usually 3/4", if installed with less than 6" of clearance must be lined with nonflammable surface like tile or fire-board.

My opinions

Cost --- Its far cheaper than the equivalent residential with some features you just cannot get on any residential. The cost of a residential in the size I want is a full 2X the cost of a commercial range, even when I special order several common residential features and buy the higher model commercial unit. The higher end "Ultimate" line has better insulation than standard commercial S series and can be ordered with electric spark ignition eliminating standing pilot hand lighting issues.

Features that cannot be had otherwise --- Full commercial depth allowing 2 large pots to sit front to back on the range and full size sheet pans. No electronic gizmos to break and no silly features I'm not going to use. Very heavy and heavy duty from burners to oven doors, they are sledgehammer tough. The range I'm looking at is several hundred lbs.

Warranty --- I don't really much care about the warranty since there are very very few things that can break compared to a residential line. If they do break I can pay for alot of thermostats and ignitors before ever touching the cost of a residential 60" Thermador

I am building the home currently and can take all these into consideration at build time meaning my cost to install is minimal compared to someone who has to retrofit. The cabinetry will be extra depth to match the oven and its in a stone surround shared with a brick oven. This allows me to install the ugly fire suppression stuff either behind the oven wall on the utility room wall or even inside the wood storage cabinet under the brick oven.

https://www.google.com/search?q=4606AD-2RR&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hum,

 6-7 K for the Southbend, 2K hood, 2K fire suppression, 2k installation w/plumbing.

I'm in Texas, in my jurisdiction if there is a requirement for fire suppression system, commercial or residential, they will require inspection and rotation + on site documentation of grease cleaning.

Now with the approved Home Cottage Kitchens a 3/4" tap is considered a commercial need. A commercial tap usually requires separate ins. coverage for receiving area. This also needs to be disclosed to homeowners ins. provider which usually results in doubled + rates. If not disclosed, recent rulings for fire usually releases any liability on the homeowners insurance. Of course you can elect to have an event investigated, but those cost usually exceed ones losses.

  No electric gizmos, that means pilot lights. Wasted energy. Produces unusable heat. Ovens will be 180+ while dormant. I know this because we use them to melt chocolate. One or two pilots up top will elevate room temp a few degrees constantly. Pretty sure the vent will require two motors. One for make up air if there is a suppression installed. Southbend, no insulation at all, gaskets are usually far less efficient because they usually endure abuse and are changed frequently.

  I'm also pretty sure the 3'4 tap will require a commercial permit which means the contractor will sub out the tap to a commercial plumber who will require running his own line for permit inspection.

Just sayin


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## cgriffin (Sep 30, 2016)

Class 1 hood is required and it is 4k from hoodmart, this is with fire supression. The range I am looking at is 10k with delivery and installation. None of this come close to a Thermador at 16k plus their hood also 4k. 
Several commercial vendors do have electric spark ignition especially on the "green" lines, Southbend will put them on any of their ultimate series eliminating standing pilots. No pilots, no elevated heat and it has a single hard cutoff on the front when not in use regardless of the ignition type. The ultimate line does have some insulation, granted not what a standard residential does. The S line does not have any and is far cheaper. The vent requires a single 600 cfm motor and exhaust must have clearance from flammable objects. A makeup air system is required even on the Thermadore system as well so there is no real difference outside of the color corrected lighting that Thermadore features (really?, what's wrong with plain lights) There is no inspection cycle after installation unless it's being actively used in commercial applications. 

I am on propane, no natural gas is available here however tap size means nothing. You need a 3/4 tap just to run a tankless water heater and get larger based on additional appliances. 

USAA homeowners simply required that all installation required in a commercial operation be done, actually manufacturer installation requirements but they are one and the same. (not easy to retrofit but not hard to install initially). It costs nothing more unless you are using it in a commercial application. The same would be true if you were using a standard home range in a commercial application. They require insurance for the application not the equipment. Else if it passes final inspection by the city you are good to go.

I have actually spoken to each one of these entities fully explaining the situation. I have each one of the statements I outlined above in emails as well from the City, USAA and Southbend themselves. USAA explained that it isn't uncommon for a B&B with a commercial range be returned to standard residential use and this is how they are covered.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

cgriffin said:


> Class 1 hood is required and it is 4k from hoodmart, this is with fire supression. The range I am looking at is 10k with delivery and installation. None of this come close to a Thermador at 16k plus their hood also 4k.
> Several commercial vendors do have electric spark ignition especially on the "green" lines, Southbend will put them on any of their ultimate series eliminating standing pilots. No pilots, no elevated heat and it has a single hard cutoff on the front when not in use regardless of the ignition type. The ultimate line does have some insulation, granted not what a standard residential does. The S line does not have any and is far cheaper. The vent requires a single 600 cfm motor and exhaust must have clearance from flammable objects. A makeup air system is required even on the Thermadore system as well so there is no real difference outside of the color corrected lighting that Thermadore features (really?, what's wrong with plain lights) There is no inspection cycle after installation unless it's being actively used in commercial applications.
> 
> I am on propane, no natural gas is available here however tap size means nothing. You need a 3/4 tap just to run a tankless water heater and get larger based on additional appliances.
> ...


Had this discussion before Ice Man, I am glad to have you add your WOW factor.

cgriffin I think your cost estimate is low.

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This is from another thread with the same discussion. I installed a Vulcan 60" range in my house last year.

Yes it is installed. My cost including the equipment was $15,000 +-. I did much of the work myself and some of the materials including the hood were from a demolition job. There is no code department in my area. At one time in my life I worked as an engineer and a licensed contractor. My installation meets national recommended codes. If I were estimating this job for a client I would estimate $30,000 plus for new construction more for rebuild.

range 7000. hood 2500, fire suppression 2500, fans 3000, Elec 1500, ducting 5000, Gas 1500, plans and permits 3000 = 26000 plan on a budget of 30000.

Did your quote from Hoodmart include fans? Does your stove instillation include plumbing? How much will it cost to install hood, ducting, and fans? Remember the duct is a double walled. When I evaluated a quote from Hoodmart and I have nothing negative to say about them I chose another source. Good luck with your project.


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## cgriffin (Sep 30, 2016)

You are certainly correct on labor costs, they will be higher on average across the board.  They are higher and clearances are a really big deal. 


The Hoodmart unit contains a fan, and a 5 speed switch with auto temp sensor.  The makeup air will depend on the HVAC calculations, it may require a fan or it might just be an automatic louver.  The louver is accounted for, the fan is not. However it is less expensive since not a high temp exhaust fan.  We are putting a couple thousand in for potential overages with this in mind. 


This home is being built from scratch and already includes properly sized gas lines, The oven is in fact the only thing in the home to run on gas. (LP)  However there is a manifold in the attic to allow a line for an outdoor kitchen and grill setup when we are ready to install it.  


We are also installing a 50" medium dome brick oven directly next to the Southbend that already requires many of the extra costs you mention.  The exhaust from that oven already requires 18" clearances for 1200 degree gasses double walled and extra fireproofing above (about $200 per linear foot).  The HVAC guy we are using is one of our local commercial installers of this equipment as well and we will have lots of cost sharing in between.  This was the major concern for the makeup air, the room its installed in is very large but if too small and it could actually pull air down through the brick oven exhaust if makeup air isn't adequate.  Much of the cost of the hood install, while certainly more expensive than a conventional Thermador is not outrageous for new construction, the clearances change but the volumes of hood and air are the same.  Makeup air would also be required on the Thermador if it is to not impact the brick oven as well. If we hadn't had to mobilize the HVAC guy for the brick oven already we might be rethinking all of this.

 

Thank-you for your thoughts, I sincerely appreciate it..  Please if you can think of anything else that might be an issue, please let me know.


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## dogloverdr (May 23, 2016)

I don't know if you are still looking for commercial range information, but I came across a pretty good guide the other day: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/guide/547/commercial-range-buying-guide.html


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