# European Knives VS Japanese Knives in a Professional Setting



## colonelsandburg (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm looking to get a new Chef knife. I have been reading reviews and trying coworkers knives and I keep changing my mind about whether to buy German or Japanese. 

I'm a sous chef at a fine dining place. I need a knife that can rock out some mirepoix when the prep cook is buried, cut larger vegetables like a whole cabbage, brunoise root vegetables, and maintain an edge for at least a week with honing on an Idahone ceramic rod. I use the whetstones once a week on my current global g16.

I do not like the global knife and I would not recommend them to anyone. The main reason is that they perform best with a convex edge. They are shipped with a convex edge and it is hard to sharpen on whetstones and maintain the convex edge. Most people use a belt sander with some slack in the belt to get a convex edge. My global has a flat beveled edge at 15 degrees on each side from regular whetstone sharpening. It gets sharp enough to shave hair but loses the edge after two twelve hour days, even with honing. My rosewood Victorinox actually stays sharp longer.

I know a higher end Japanese knife would keep that razor edge longer than the global. Japanese knives I'm considering include the Richmond Artifex SAB, Fujiwaraa FKM, Kohetsu BluE #2 gyuto, and Tojiro DP. While these knives are all cheaper than a global g16, they are made of superior steel and hardened to a higher level. They are also more likely to chip when knocked off a counter, twisted on a cutting board, used to cut something that isn't quite thawed 100%, or hitting a bone on accident when de boning a porterhouse during service. These thing happen once in a while. 

The European knives I'm considering are Victorinox and Mercer. These might be considered low end knives but they both hold their own with Wusthoff in my experience. The Victorinox rosewood and Mercer Renaissance in ten inch are under 70 dollars. I've used and sharpened Victorinox and mercer knives and they get sharp enough to shave hair and hold an edge better than the global I have. 

In my experience German and Swiss knives are better than globals for what I do, and possibly as good or better than Japanese knives under 100 dollars.

A few questions,

Do any Chefs here use Victorinox or Mercer in a professional setting? What are the pros and cons?

Do you prefer a European or Japanese knife for your main workhorse?

What are your favorite chef knives under 110


Have you ever chipped a knife?


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## cm-chef (Oct 21, 2014)

I am also not a fan of global or shun knives for that matter. The pro's and cons and questions too ask yourself (as I see them) with your decision is: 1) what is you kitchen environment and how likel are you to move? The resion for this question is that in most kitchens you stand a good chance at haveing your knife damaged or stolen, the more expensive the knife the more likely (at least for a matter of prospective). If this is a concern for you I'd stay with a less expensive knife like the victornox or the DP.
2) how important is your " kitchen image"
Without being sarcastic in any way and because there is nothing wrong with it if you feel a less common/" better " knife will make you feel more professional, or is everyone else is useing higher end knives and you just want to fit in then I would say cheaper German knives are out. 

J-knives vs European has more to do with geometry and preference then anything else. J-knives are great but not inherently better, I feel like this is a common misconception. IMO custom American knives are the best made in the world but that doesn't cheage the fact that "it's not the knife but how you use it" that is most important. The best knife in the world won't give you any better knife skills then you already have. Furthermore if you are not working in a japanease environment then all ther "specialty" knives are not needed or that useful.

Haveing worked in many of NYC most "prestigious" kitchen as well as currently being the executive chef of one I can tell you that is your working in a fine dining kitchen then a good 9-11" (taking the metric convention into consideration) chef knife and a 6" petty knife, complimented by an inexpensive thin "disposable" paring knife and an off set serrated bread knife are the only knifes you will need.


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## linecook854 (Feb 13, 2013)

ColonelSandburg said:


> I'm looking to get a new Chef knife. I have been reading reviews and trying coworkers knives and I keep changing my mind about whether to buy German or Japanese.
> 
> I'm a sous chef at a fine dining place. I need a knife that can rock out some mirepoix when the prep cook is buried, cut larger vegetables like a whole cabbage, brunoise root vegetables, and maintain an edge for at least a week with honing on an Idahone ceramic rod. I use the whetstones once a week on my current global g16.
> 
> ...


Alright, I'm not a knife snob but I'm going to critique a few things here. Shuns, Globals etc. are not truly Japanese, they are made in Japan not utilizing traditional knife making techniques and are made for mass-marketing. Traditional Japanese knives are constructed of only carbon steels and have a single edge chisel bevel amongst other factors. Also, there is no reason to believe that a "Japanese" knife will hold an edge longer than a German knife, this is largely dependent on the type of steel, how the knife is sharpened and more importantly what tasks the knife is being used for. My Wusthof chef's knife routinely holds it's edge better than my Misono Swedish steel Gyuoto for example. Japanese steels can't be considered "superior" because they simply may have a higher rockwell hardness, it just gives them different characteristics.

As far as your needs go I strongly recommend staying away from Japanese knives, all carbon steel for that matter. I do recommend hefty constructed stainless steels since your tasks include hacking through mirepoix, root veg. prep etc, these typically include German knives. You seem to need a workhorse and using a Japanese knife to beast through western style cuisine in a fast paced kitchen is not using these knives the way they're intended thus compromising performance.

A Chinese vegetable cleaver might serve you well in your knife arsenal if you need a beastly knife. I wouldn't write off Victorinox or other soft "house" style knives, they're immensely easy to use and maintain and a huge value, these types of knives are sometimes the most rewarding to own in a professional environment.


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## cxrxexaxm (Mar 19, 2015)

There are plenty of Japanese made stainless options that will work great for you. One of my most affordable knives is a Tojiro DP and it is one of my favorites. I have a mercer that was given to me that I use at home and it doesn't compare to any of my Japanese blades used daily at work.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ive been using Victorinox in commercial kitckens for close to 35 years now. In my opinion its the best bang for your dollar, this is the knife to use for prep work.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Same here.


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## frankie007 (Jan 17, 2015)

There is a lot of knife snobbery nowadays. Personally I used European knives last 20 years and they have done the job, Wusthof, Henkel, Sabatier, Arcos, Victorinox they are all decent knives and day to day I really need a workhorse a 10" chef's knife that does most of the jobs. I was given a Japanese knife  recently and it was beautiful, first day I brought it to work I dropped it and bent the tip. Although I latter fixed it it was never the same...Now I keep it and use it at home. Get something strong and something that will not drive you to suicide if it gets lost/stolen. In the end it is the cook not the knife.....I worked with the guy recently who bought shitty set of replicas that were nightmare to sharpen, It  used to infuriate me to watching him trying to sharpen them every day but he did not want to get rid of them. The thing is he was a great cook, who cares.....I have my fevorite knives, some are quality some are from 30 years ago, relics with wooden handles that are beautiful to me, I guess what I am trying to say each to they own....


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## humble chef (Mar 8, 2015)

I use Henkels and more Henkels ! I do however have a work horse cheap knife that I bought from superior ( the company that sharpens our knives) I use it more then any other knife. If I need finesse I grab one of my many Henkels


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## chefwh (Aug 21, 2015)

Well explained. German steel is the hardest, with Japanese coming in a close second. The proposition of maintaining a convex edge is absurd. With a hard carbon steel, 13 degrees is the minimum edge that may be put on a knife without the blade becoming too brittle for use. This however, is far finer than the 22 degrees which is best for carbon steel and most knives. 22 degrees is also the easiest to maintain with a steel knife. With regular professional use, ( daily pounding out you'r stuff,) all that is needed is a quick inpection of the blade edge and honing for 5 to 10 seconds to keep it incredibly sharp. For steel knives, I recommend Messermeister, or Wusthoff. The more expensive ones will not dissapoint. There is also a company named Clauss who makes titanium blades with antimicrobial handles. I have noticed very small chips in the titanium blades from fruit seeds and bone pieces. Titanium can usually be sharpened to a lesser angle: (10-12 degrees) but after 10 seconds of honing with a steel honer they are gone. So if you are chipping blades, adjust your angle to be greater. Also, instead of putting a new edge on your knife every week, maintain your 22 degrees by honing for 20 seconds every day.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

ChefWH said:


> Well explained. German steel is the hardest, with Japanese coming in a close second. The proposition of maintaining a convex edge is absurd. With a hard carbon steel, 13 degrees is the minimum edge that may be put on a knife without the blade becoming too brittle for use. This however, is far finer than the 22 degrees which is best for carbon steel and most knives. 22 degrees is also the easiest to maintain with a steel knife. With regular professional use, ( daily pounding out you'r stuff,) all that is needed is a quick inpection of the blade edge and honing for 5 to 10 seconds to keep it incredibly sharp. For steel knives, I recommend Messermeister, or Wusthoff. The more expensive ones will not dissapoint. There is also a company named Clauss who makes titanium blades with antimicrobial handles. I have noticed very small chips in the titanium blades from fruit seeds and bone pieces. Titanium can usually be sharpened to a lesser angle: (10-12 degrees) but after 10 seconds of honing with a steel honer they are gone. So if you are chipping blades, adjust your angle to be greater. Also, instead of putting a new edge on your knife every week, maintain your 22 degrees by honing for 20 seconds every day.


Wow! For starters, just _no_. Even entry level Japanese knives are much harder than any common German knife you'll find. A Wusthof might be around 57-58 RC but even a Shun is 60 RC or higher. Bear in mind that the Rockwell scale is logarithmic so that 2 point difference is a vast difference in hardness. Certainly I wouldn't go below 15[sup]o[/sup] per side with a German blade but 13[sup]o[/sup] per side is fine for most Japanese knives. I don't personally like convex edges but they're extremely easy to maintain.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

my I recommend Tojiro DP if you want a very good quality but inexpensive knife
All of the other Japanese knives you mentioned are great values too!

VG10 core will take a much sharper edge and keep it longer than x50crmov15
I personally use the Senkuo line (67 layers with vg10 core) as my every day knives and I know dozens of guys on the line using DP. It was good enough for Heston Blumenthal and it was good enough for the Second place team at the Bocuse this year.
VG10 is NOT high end, but it's probably the best value for the dollar of all the current knife steels and the minimum bar for a professional. It's not too much money, essay to care for, takes a good edge and keeps it, yet is still easy to resharpen. No fuss no muss. Easy peasy. I've got lots of pletny of carbon, a couple of handfuls of superA, blue2 and white2, and am now trying out powdered steel, but my tojiro senkuos with their VG10 are still my everyday knives.

I know a quite a few guys still using their mercers from school. I STILL keep mine and those are the ones I travel with. (of course I'm from the era back when "Wusthof classic" was the school knife, but I had gradually sold those off and got a mercer roll a while back.)
I think a lot of us pretend we are too cool for our "school knives", when they were chosen as being reliable and a great value. in the first place. I like them a lot!
 I'd rather have any of the other Japanese knives you mentioned than a genesis or renaissance but I would choose a genesis or a renaissance any day over a victorinox. And they have a new M3 series that's pretty darn good and has a great price.

I personally don't like global either. I think most people use them just because they look cool, not because they work well.

And you cannot compare VG10 shirogami or aogami to german steel. It literally is night and day.


I literally do not know of one single line cook, much less a chef that uses a victoronix in real life. I don't even know any prep cooks that have them. I have never , ever seen one serious cook use one unless they forgot their roll and were using the "house knives". Yes, many places still have "dexter sani-safes" and "fiberox" on the wall although they are rapidly being replaced by "dexter icut pros" or "Wusthof Pros". It's decent and it's cheap. We use them because if a washer steals one or if it gets thrown in the trash, we don't care about losing them.
 If you used one in my town, you'd probably be laughed out of the kitchen, and you'd definately get ZERO respect from your staff (you said you're a sous). It would be a shame for your part time prep cook had better knives than you did.


 But if you want an "el cheapo" knife, the "Wusthof Pro" line is head and shoulders above the victorinox line and you do not need to use a dremel on it like you do the fiberox. Victorinox are now primarly for home cooks that watch too much TV.  I'd use wusthof pro any day over victorinox. Try one at your restaurant supply store side by side with a victorinox. Almost the same cookie cutter blade, but  much better ergonomics, better grippy and forgiving handle instead of hard plastic that needs to be dremmeled.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

as pheadras noted, ChefWH is wrong. Japanese knives are far harder than german knives.

But harder is not necessarily better. the harder a knife is, the more possibility of it chipping, especially so when Japanese knives are sharpened at a steeper angle or are using a "single bevel". (not really single bevel, but that's what we call them). A harder knife is also harder to sharpen. Anyone can make a steel hard. And if you just want the hardest blade, zirconium carbide are the hardest commercially available. Many of us use them at home, not for service because of our HAACP plan. They can be "chippy" if not used properly.

It's the blend of ALL it's virtues that makes the choice of steel important, hard tough wear resistant, easy to care for, edge retention, ease of manufacture, cost of raw material, cost of finished product
Many people in the industry use VG 10 as their everyday knife. Again it is NOT the best steel, but it's a good compromise (between hard/ tough/inexpensive/easy to care for) especially when made by a decent knife maker.
I do agree with ChefWH that I DO like my messermeisters, my wustys and my henkels. But for the same price you can get a Tojiro, Richmond, Fujiwara, Yoshihiro, etc. Fortunately I didn't have to pay for any of mine.

Titanium is NOT a good blade material unless you're a navy seal and you are worried that a ferrous knife will detonate a mine.
He might be talking about titanioum oxide coatings on knives, but those are NOT "chippy". These knives are no harder than other knives of their respective steels. The titanium is hard anodized to the steel, just as a wrench or a socket set. The titanium is NOT on the cutting edge. It is on the FACE of the knife. It doesn't make the edge harder.
Schmidt brothers makes a very good cheap one, and I have used one for more than 20 hours or so. I think highly of them. Chroma makes an excellent one too. I've only used one for about an hour, but thought very highly of it.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

looked up the Clauss knives. As I guess, they are titanium FACED, not titanium blades. They are probably below the quality of a "dexter V-Lo knife." The Schmidt and the Chroma are FAR better.
I looked at the advertising on Amazon and it is very misleading, not the sign of a reputable company


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't care for the Mercer knives.  My niece got a her Mercers at school and I sharpened her whole roll once. Blech!  Not really much worse than Wusthoff but somehow thicker, with really crappy thick bolsters.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Jeez, that's a lot of Victorinox hate. Well, I'm a sous chef, and I use several- chef knife plus meat & fish- and they're great knives. I've had Mercers and been unimpressed with both build and design. And I've known lots of pros that use vics. And I've NEVER heard of anyone dremeling the handles- seems like a lot of work for a $40 knife.


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Second this. I prefer Asian knives, but that being said I've had plenty of sous chefs with teruyasas and kikuichis that sat in their rolls because they simply preferred -and were able to annihilate prep with- a victirinox. To each his own.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It's the archer not the arrow.  A good cook with knife skills can work with almost anything.  I simply like Japanese knives more.  Others may prefer other things.  I'm cool with that.


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## chezpopp (Aug 8, 2015)

Japanes knive are great and i have about 6 or 7 right now. That being said i just dont use them in a professional setting. I dont have the time to wipe and baby them and treat them like the lady they are. I am sure some people will disagree but i prefer not to use my j knives in a professional kitchen especially one that is fast paced. Possibly during prep when i am cleaning and portioning fish or if i am slicing something that needs to be thin like lox. Then i would. But it sounds like what you need is something easy to sharpen and can take a beating. Wusthof classic chef or classic ikon is what i use. The german steel is softer about 56 to 58 rockwell and will not hold the edge as long but it is not as reactive as some j knives. Also it is built for abuse. Most of my j knives i wouldnt use to cut butternut squash and living in bew england it is a must. I grab my wusthof. Also another brand that is a workhorse for pro kitchen is dexter russell. Incredible value. They offer plastic handles as well as a full tang fully forged line. They are made in the usa and for the price are the best kitchen knife for a fast paced restaurant whete knives get banged up and stored in the space between lowboys. Dexter is also a company that works with our students to provide nice knife kit starters and sponsor some of our school culinary events. Great great company. They do also make a very nice heritage line with beatiful handles and each one is made custom. Any way most people on this site prefer the j knives so i am sure there will be a number of peopke that disagree but for me my dexters and my wusthofs go in my work roll and for when i cater or cook at ho.e i use my j knives. The latest of which is a musashi nakiri sld steel. Really really liming it. Fit and finish was amazing. Distal taper beautiful and a nice job w the grind and on the choil. Great youngish knofe maker.


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

I can probably say I am in fact a knife snob but I do believe that it is the user not the knife. With that said; the debate of Japanese verses European is funny to me. Each knife has its Pros and cons and really it is as simple as what you are comfortable with and enjoy using. A Japanese knife is used differently than a Dexter. with a 10 inch dexter i am chopping and cutting; with a 10 inch gyuto I'am not chopping but cutting in a slicing motion. I use a combination of different knives based on what I am comfortable with. 10 inch gyuto to slice through mountains of knife work, a 6 inch petty knife for accurate thin cuts, typical 10 inch bread knife for well bread, 10 inch round tip slicer for slicing my "bistro" steak fillets, and than i prefer non japanese boning and fillet knives for fabrication minus my sashimi knife.

That is my thoughts on the matter based on my experiences with my collection of tools.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

[No message]


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *harrisonh*
> 
> And it's going to be hard to command ANY respect at all if you're using a victorinox when you're prep cook is using a Tojiro DP or a Wusthof Grand Prix2.
> 
> At the same price point, Wusthof Pro is FAR superior. Same steel, but much better handles. Much better ergonomics and less slip handles with just a hint of "tackiness" to them. Just go to a restaurant supply house or knife company and compare them side by side. Dirt cheap and not bad. They will be replacing victorinox as house knives in most kitchens. dexter v-lo and mercer millennia are also superior to victorinox at the same price point, but not as nice as the wusthof pro. Wusthof has lowered their gourmet series to be competitive with victorinox and at least you won't have prep cooks laughing at you behind your back.


I was ok with your comments until you start talking about wusthof as a worthwhile knife. I would take a cheap Paula Deen knife over a wusthof. The victorinox is a decent knife but I would stick them at dexters level and in terms of handles... they have several series like any brand and so it really is just taste. you got some classy prep cooks if they are all rocking a tojiro japanese knife. The only thing that amazes me about my prep cook's knifes is how amazingly skilled they must be to make such precise cuts with such dull pieces of crap and how none of them know how to use a sharpening stone or a honing steel..

a knife is a knife and if you have a preference thats great; I have mine but their are soo many out there. The best and only advice I would give on buying a new knife is to educate yourself about the different types of steels and modern knife making techniques than take that knowledge and go to a knife shop and pick up some knives and ask the owner of the store some questions about the products he is willing to display and sell in his shop. if you dont have that option than just educate yourself and buy accordingly online.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

I've got a wusthof that's a great knife, had it for years. A multi use beast. I won't deny they turn out their share of crap. Frankly, any knife I spend more than $100 bucks on stays home. Using a better knife at the risk of it being stolen or damaged isn't worth more than just spending more time maintaining my ok knives


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## cstanford (Jul 3, 2008)

Quote:


harrisonh said:


> my I recommend Tojiro DP if you want a very good quality but inexpensive knife
> All of the other Japanese knives you mentioned are great values too!
> 
> VG10 core will take a much sharper edge and keep it longer than x50crmov15
> ...


What a humongous load of BS on so many levels it leaves me at a loss for further words. You need a career do-over in some real kitchens is all I can come up with at the moment.


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

I've cut my fingers and other stuff with a bunch of different knives, German, French, Japanese, Mongolian, .  Given the choice, I much prefer to cut myself with my 50/50 Japanese honesuki or gyuto with about a 1.5mm spine sharpened to 13 degrees, than any of my other knives.  At least you can get finished with your prep before you realize you're missing the fingertip.  Look around for it real good, 'cause they really can re-attach it (man, does it feel good when they stick it back on!).

P.S.

Nothing wrong with Victorinox, I have several, but the wood handled ones ain't a good idea in my opinion.  They get all funky and water-logged and nasty after a while.  Yep, I've got a couple at home in a closet.  Went to the plastic handled ones for the store....more sanitary.

I want a new knife.  I want an 'Ol Hickory butcher knife, polished, with custom desert ironwood handle,  and sharpened to 13 degrees.  I also want it to have a custom saya.

Why do I want this?  I dunno, I jes do, that's all.

About cutting myself.

Over the years I've replaced three fingertips, and cut my fingers (seems to always be the same one) too many times to count.

Know what?  Only twice in 45 years have I cut myself when alone.

NUFF SED


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

i like kiwi brand knifes ... sharp as a lazor and $4 each ... i know , i know, but freak are they sharp !

then when they get old i just give em away , everyone wants a "new" knife


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm no knife snob, I can't justify spending thousands of dollars on Japanese knives so that I look better than the prep cook. I have used Forschner knives most of my career, they are affordable and get the job done. Does having Forschner knives make me a bad cook or chef? I think not.  Do I have to have a $400 Japanese knife to be a serious cook? This would be the same as a mechanic being laughed at for buying Craftsman tools and for not having a $30,000 tool box filled with Snap On tools. They both accomplish the same result.

From Harrisonh:

I literally do not know of one single line cook, much less a chef that uses a victoronix in real life. I don't even know any prep cooks that have them. I have never , ever seen one serious cook use one unless they forgot their roll and were using the "house knives". Yes, many places still have "dexter sani-safes" and "fiberox" on the wall although they are rapidly being replaced by "dexter icut pros" or "Wusthof Pros". It's decent and it's cheap. We use them because if a washer steals one or if it gets thrown in the trash, we don't care about losing them.
 If you used one in my town, you'd probably be laughed out of the kitchen, and you'd definately get ZERO respect from your staff (you said you're a sous). It would be a shame for your part time prep cook had better knives than you did.

 But if you want an "el cheapo" knife, the "Wusthof Pro" line is head and shoulders above the victorinox line and you do not need to use a dremel on it like you do the fiberox. Victorinox are now primarly for home cooks that watch too much TV.  I'd use wusthof pro any day over victorinox. Try one at your restaurant supply store side by side with a victorinox. Almost the same cookie cutter blade, but  much better ergonomics, better grippy and forgiving handle instead of hard plastic that needs to be dremmeled.


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## lagom (Sep 5, 2012)

I have always looked at the quality of the cuts made by the cook rather than the piece of sharp steel they have in their hand. But then again, what do I know. [emoji]128526[/emoji]


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

some knives are cheaper than buying a sports car...  personally I just like a cook that can use one well.


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## harrisonh (Jan 20, 2013)

it's the fisherman, not the rod


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## bouzu-itamae (Oct 8, 2015)

Like the others have said, it really depends on what kind of environment you're working in.

At the restaurant I work at in Ginza, Tokyo, everybody uses Japanese made knives. Apprentices are only allowed to use traditional single bevel knives, both carbon steel and stainless steel (ginsan), for the first two years. This is so that we learned how to handle delicate knives even in high pressure situations. Everything from slicing tomatoes, cutting onions, preparing daikon tsuma, even peeling carrots and potatoes was done on traditional single bevel knives. Only after we were disciplined enough to handle traditional knives were we allowed to use the western style stainless steel gyutos (which were seen as the lazy chef's knife). By disciplined, I mean learning how to wipe your knife clean with a damp cloth religiously without showing down, finding the time to polish it every night to prevent rusting, cutting frozen things without chipping the edge, etc.

Even with the gyutos, nobody uses a honing rod, since we are used to spending time everyday on the whetstones. For gyutos, we use 4000 grit stones to realign the edge, and sharpen on 1000 grit stones every week with moderate use.

If a knife goes dull during prep, it's not a problem because everyone has a one or two backup knives.

Image related, my knife roll for this season's menu.

My point is that Japanese knives are made with the Japanese market in mind, so if you're used to using western knives with the steel, you're probably better off sticking to what you're used to.

And if you really want to give Japanese knives a go, you should probably start off with a molybdenum steel misono or tojiro dp, since they're easy to sharpen and reshape, which make them great for sharpening practice.





  








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bouzu-itamae


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Oct 8, 2015


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