# Sour Starters



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Hi to all:
Now that my breadmaking technique is established - at least for a simple loaf of bread - I'm thinking about starters.

What is the difference in starter making as described in ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA as opposed to CRUST AND CRUMB, BREADS FROM LA BREA BAKERY and THE BREAD BUILDERS.

I haven't read the last three books. It's information overload but perhaps someone could briefly describe the differences.

TIA


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I don't have that book (yet), I just bought The Bread Builders, but I have read LaBrea and Crust&Crumb. The LaBrea starter takes 14 days to build. The Crust&Crumb starter takes 5. The C&C starter produces a very active starter and terrific bread. School's still out on LaBrea as I have a week to go before it's ready. My suggestion would be to pick one or two and jump in with both feet  this stuff is really cool!

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Seems to me that the purpose of LaBrea's 14-day starter is to develop taste and character. I think she spent quite a lot of time perfecting her technique.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I would agree. I will know more next week when I get my first results from her starter.


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## pooh (Mar 13, 2001)

Ditto here.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I've only used the technique described in La Brea. So I want to try the shorter techniques, to see if there's a big difference.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

The Bread Builders doesn't give any formulas, but talks in generalities about sourdoughs and gives a lot of tips and timetables. I watched the video of Nancy Silverton and it looked like she was taking her soupy starter culture and adding it directly to a dough. This is different from Reinhart and Wing, because they use an intermediate build called a sponge, which is incorporated into a dough. So they are getting a more active, mature wad of sourdough going into the dough. 
A key paragraph for me in the Bread Builders is the one that asks Why is Silverton feeding so much flour to microbes which can basically be seen only with a microscope? All these differing techniques are after the same goal--to culture the resident wild yeasts and lactic and acetic acid producing bacteria which live on organic materials, such as grapes, raisins, wheat berries. 
Reinhart has you rinse organic raisins in water and then use that water to make your starter with organic whole wheat flour. 
Silverton bathes the grapes in the slurry for days. Why? Reinhart gets the yeasts and bacteria in a quick rinse.
The whole point of feeding these starter hinges on a growth curve, which is dependent on temperature. The Bread Builders has a couple of graphs that show that relationship.
By manipulating the temp, you can plan the feedings. Life doesn't have to revolve around feeding the beast. You can make it work for you. 
Silverton has some comments about starters I've seen contradicted. She says they can get contaminated by commercial yeast. Daniel Wing says not so. He also says that a lot of the bacteria will come from you. And that the only place lactobacillus sanfranciso has been cultured from is dental plaque. Silverton says your kitchen will fill with wild yeasts the more you bake. I don't buy that at all. The yeasts are on the materials used to start the starter. I saw one book or something recently that said to put the starter freshly mixed in your kitchen where you think there might be wild yeasts. I guess in my kitchen that would be near the kitty litter box next to the back door. Keep reading folks.


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## compassrose (Jun 1, 2001)

This being, I expect, information you don't plan on sharing with the eventual consumers of the bread?

I wouldn't eat anything that had been even remotely near MY kitty litter boxes... however, certain of my cats have exceptionally foul bowels and, shall we say, somewhat _sloppy_ habits.



[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: CompassRose ]


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

i am on my intership at a hotel and i have ebbn working closely with the bread chef. he had his training from the guy that owns Bread Alone in NY. he got his training from the best bakers in europe. i was so ready to learn.

he and i sat down together and talked about starts, or shall i say pre ferments. he said not to listen to any of the b.s. other books say about starters. he said they are confused and will only confuse you, the reader. so we made a pre ferment together.

we took 1 part flour to 1 part water and mixed it in a bucket. we covered it and let it set out for 8-10 hours then we put it in the refer. the second day, we added one part water to one part flour, mixed it and refered it. same the third day. on the 4rth day, we took a little part of the starter (called the seed) and put it in a new bucket and added 1 part water and 3/4 part flour. left it out for 8-10 hours, then refered it.


it was just awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i recomend reading a book called "Bread Alone"


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Last night I started my first sour starter: 3/4 cup pumpernickel flour plus 1/2 cup of water. It's the standard sourdough starter as described in ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA.

It's been about 15 hours since I first mixed the starter and I see no activity. The first feeding occurs tomorrow evening.

Presently, does the starter look like a dud? Am I being premature in judging it?



[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I am not sure which starter you have started. I do know what I was recently counseled in this very forum.

For the first day or so of the Reinhart starter nothing much was going on. For the Silverton Starter it was almost a week before I saw anything.

Patience is a virtue!

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The recipe for the sourdough starter is the standard one described in ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA. 

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Good 'nuf!


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

only 15 hours eh? thats not a long time at all. come back and tell us how it turns out in three days, for sure, you will smell the diffence. also taste it to. grab a little piece and put it on the tip of your toung, you will notice a big diff. 

just be patient.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BUBBLES! All kinds of bubbles!!! Yesterday I left my starter outside in the shade (temp approx 75-80 degrees). The starter has a slight scent.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

How long will it take to full maturity? Do you intend to give it a name?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kimmie:

It'll take about 5-7 days, according to ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA. The jury is still out as to its future name.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Hey Iza:









Last night I made a slack dough. I shortened the proof time to 18 minutes and got a great oven spring, a good, tall loaf. So if your dough is overrisen, greatly shorten the proofing time to about half.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Thanks Koko. I'm hoping to make a loaf this afternoon. I'll let you know. 


I guess I'm just worried about the bread having a strong yeast smell. Last loaf I did was like that and I could not figure out what caused it. Guess I'm just scared it will happen again.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Go for it Iza and tell us more once it's out of the oven!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Iza:

How much yeast, water and flour are you using?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I used the white loaves recipe from Baking With Julia. I did half the recipe which mean I had:

1 1/4 cups water
1/2 tablespoon active dry yeast
1/2 tablespoon sugar
3 1/2 cups flour
1/4 cup butter

Everything was at room temperature, except the water which was at 101°F. The temperature in the kitchen was 77°F. I followed the instructions to the letter. I even measure the high of the dough in the bowl to make sure I would stop exactly when it had double. Used a timer for the kneading time, I did it all in the KitchenAid. Was very careful shaping the loaf. Checked out the second rising carefully, did the finger test to make sure it had risen enough. Put it in a 375°F preheat oven, baked for about 37 minutes. Turned it at half time. Took it out of the oven once nicely golden and sounding hollow when tapped. Let it cool down for 90 minutes. Cut out a slice, the crumb is white, thigh, soft and moist just like it should look and the crust is crunchy.

Why do I smell a yeasty odour from the bread ? I didn’t smell yeast before cutting a slice but eating it I can taste yeast. What am I doing wrong?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Koko,

In one of my book there are instruction for an apple starter aka the Normandy starter. t takes 8 to 10 days. Leet me know if you want the instructions.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Iza,

What brand of yeast are you using? I wonder if that could make a difference...


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Iza:
This is my preference. I would omit the butter and sugar from the recipe. Instead, I'd work with just flour, water, salt and yeast. I think perhaps that the butter (fat) may interfering with yeast development. BigHat might be able to offer some info on the yeastiness.

Otherwise, your technique looks fine.

Maybe the oven temp could be increased? 

Which brand of yeast is used? I use SAF Red Instant yeast. No problems there with yeastiness. 

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My sour starter received its first feeding last night. Today it's full of bubbles. It smells beery.

His name is Hans, reflecting the use of pumpernickel flour in the mixture and his beery aroma.

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

sorry 

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

oops again 

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

As a matter of note, the sugar in the recipe is to feed the yeast. As to the butter, it gives such golden toasts it would be a shame to do without.

I get such wonderful results without tampering with this recipe; that's why I asked Iza what brand of yeast she was using.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Okay, I agree perhaps with the fat. However, no sugar is needed since flour supplies all the nutrients that yeast requires. My bread rises no faster with sugar as an ingredient.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

All right, it's a compromise. I still think it's the brand of yeast she's using. Been doing that specific recipe ever since 1997.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I, like Kimmie, have had great success with the recipe as printed in the book. I certainly ain't in no position to rewrite the recipes of master bakers.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Yes to all. It looks like a very simple recipe. I, too, think it's the brand of yeast causing the odor.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I used Fleischmann yeast, the package I used was good until September 27 2001. I stored it in the fridge. It’s the only brand of yeast I am able to find here. Could that be my problem? Should order some SAF yeast?

I used the bread for toasts this morning. The yeast after taste was still noticeable otherwise it was great. 

I had some fresh yeast last winter and used it to make Belgian waffles. They were great with no yeast aftertaste. I’ll order more fresh yeast from the bakery and will try the Classic French Bread. Meanwhile I’ll purchase a new package of yeast and will try something else like naan or focaccia and see what happens.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Iza,

I usually purchase my active dry yeast at Les Douceurs. Funny thing, I bought some two weeks ago and poured it into a Mason jar so I can't tell you the brand. The package is a cryovac white background with blue stripes <I think>.

There is also the following:

Fermipan Instant Yeast, produced in Montreal by a division of Lallemand, Inc., 
1620 Préfontaine St., Montreal
Sales Dept. 522-2131
Administration Dept. 522-2133
also at 5494 Notre-Dame east 255-4887

They also have a 
website

SAF would be a good choice too, if you find it!


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

What you have Kimmie is Fleischmann instant yeast. I decided to pass on it since I never used it before. Will try Fermipan next week. 

SAF is not available here, I emailed them a while back. I'm sure I could an online source.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thanks Iza. I never purchased that one before and it's the cryovac packaging that attracted me to it!

You said you store your "active dry yeast" in the fridge? Do you think the cold could have damaged your yeast?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I’ve been asking myself that question Kimmie. I know the yeast used to be stored in the fridge section of the supermarket. That’s where I got the habit. It’s funny you mentioned it, I’ve been wondering about it too, specially after what happened today. 

Today I opened a new bag of flour and a new unrefrigerated package of yeast and made osasis naan from Baking With Julia and they turned out perfectly. And not a trace of yeast smell. Could the problem really be the yeast I kept in the fridge? When I made the white loaf, I did remove the yeast from the fridge a few hours before so everything would be at room temperature. I am baffled by this. Guess the only thing left is for me to try again.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Could it really be that simple? I usually don’t bring the yeast to room temperature before using it. Specially since most often the yeast in dissolve it in water. What difference would it made. Could it be a shock for the cold yeast to be hit with 80° F to 100°F water ? I can’t think of anything else. 

As for keeping the yeast in the fridge for years it was Fleischmann's policy. Maybe I should ask them.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

From Fleischmann's website

*How should I store yeast?*
Store unopened yeast in a cool, dry place, such as a pantry (or refrigerator). Exposure to oxygen, heat or humidity decreases the activity of the yeast. After opening, store in an airtight container in the back of the refrigerator, away from drafts. Use within 3 to 4 months; freezing not recommended.

*Problem:* Strong yeast odour
*Solution:*Avoid over-fermentation Be sure dough is doubled in size (use finger-top test)

*Testing*
With Active Dry Yeast keep dough covered until it doubles in size, anywhere from1-2 hours. With RapidRise Yeast, let the dough rest for 10 minutes. It is not required to double in size.

*To determine if your dough passes the 'doubled in size' stage:* Press the tips of two fingers lightly and quickly about 1/2 inch into the dough. If the impression you made stays, the dough is doubled.

Not related to my problem but useful to know:

*How do I substitute dry yeast for Fresh Active Yeast?*
First determine the amount of dry yeast you will need. One .6 ounce cake is equivalent to 1 envelope of dry yeast. One 2-ounce cake is equivalent to three envelopes of dry yeast. Follow the directions on the package recommended for the type of yeast you substitute.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Hi Iza- 

I,too,think that the refrigeration of a foil instant yeast package may be the culprit here.

My significant other logged me in, and happened to read the thread. He knows nothing about yeast, or for that matter, cooking (I think he would be happy with hot dogs and fries every day if I weren't around) but he is logical, and since the refrigeration of the yeast seemed to be the only variable here, he immediately suggested that perhaps you should NOT have refrigerated the instant yeast...the foil is obviously air-tight, and he wondered if possibly that same foil would keep moisture in the package.

It is possible that the cooled foil,he says, presumably metal and a good conductor, would cause the moisture in the moist summer air to condense onto the inside of the package, in the same way that moisture condenses on a chilled glass, immediately after it is removed from the freezer. Perhaps the yeast was activated the second it was removed from the fridge...either you might try using the yeast the second you remove it from the fridge, or don't refridgerate it at all.

Any thoughts on this, Iza...anyone?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The yeast that you were using may have aged prematurely, imparting off-flavors to the finished product. Get some new yeast.

SAF instant yeast as well as Fermipan yeast can be ordered from King Arthur Flour.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Good point Kokopuffs.

Iza,

As a complement to all this information, here's a quote from "In the Sweet Kitchen":

Seems to me you should have poured your yeast in a small bowl to avoid condensation.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Iza,

Here's what Nancy Silverton has to say about DRY YEAST vs. FRESH YEAST

Dry yeast is more concentrated than fresh yeast because it contains no moisture. When converting a recipe from dry to fresh yeast, remember to weigh twice as much fresh yeast as you would dry yeast and to do the same when you measure by tablespoons.

Hope this helps.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I store my SAF instant yeast inside a tightly closed jar in the freezer. I notice no difference in performance after two months of freezing.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

One source said one thing and another one something completely different. Who can you trust?

In any case, I will try again, with unrefrigerated fresh yeast. I hope this will solve the problem. Will keep you posted.

Meanwhile I'm reading Cookwise and I'll read In The Sweet Kitchen again. I can't believe I didn’t check this book for information on yeast since I read it from cover to cover when I first got it and it covers just about everything. 

For those of you who are not familiar with this book, it is a fantastic book, among the best in my opinion. It's over 600 pages. About 350 pages are a discussion on ingredients and there role in baking. She touches everything from fruits to yeast, sugar, nuts. Regan Daley won the IACP cookbook of the year award and the IACP award for best Bread, Other Baking and Sweets Category.


Thanks for all your help!


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