# Help a perfectionist choose the right knife for the kitchen



## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

I know the forum probably gets a lot of these, but I have done a lot of reading and still could use a bit of help so here goes. I would describe myself as a cooking hobbyist who enjoys a scientific approach (I've learned how to cook through Good Eats, Serious Eats and ATK), especially when choosing new equipment. I'm realizing that knives are much more complicated and could use some advice from some who know the market. I am wedding registering for my first quality knives and have done about as much research and handling as I can manage. I had decided on a Shun Classic chef knife, which I know is generally regarded as overpriced and overmarketed and, to be honest, I probably wouldn't buy for myself under normal circumstances. However, I was able to handle it due to the wide availability and really liked the ergonomics when using a pinch grip, especially compared to the mostly german alternatives that were also available (I'm mostly limited to big-box stores). I also might make use of the free sharpening and it certainly looks pretty on the rack. My main concern and one that I've read from experts is the big-bellied profile and I wasn't able to do any board work with it. If someone spends this much on a knife I certainly don't want to end up with accordion cuts. I saw that Shun does make an "Asian Chef knife" which has a more triangular, flat-heeled shape, but it's only 7 inches which I'm not sure about either.

I've seen a lot of recommendations for Tojiro, Mac and Misono, all of which I could register for on Amazon, but I really preferred the D-handle when comparing in the stores and I also prefer it aesthetically. I was able to handle a Wusthoff Ikon and Miyabi Kaizen which are probably comparable to the Shun and didn't like the feel quite as much. I also feel like the Ikon is just as, if not more over-priced and I'd be concerned about chipping the Miyabi.

Basically the perfect knife for me would be D-handle, comfortable/forged collar, lack of full bolster French/Sabatier profile, at least 8 inches, quality Japanese steel, available via Amazon.

I'm also interested in a nakiri, but am probably not as concerned with the handle ergonomics on that one. I handled a Calphalon Katana in store and actually liked the unique feel, but it is much heavier than a Nakiri is probably supposed to be and I could likely get a decent budget Japanese one for the same price rather than one made by a cookware company. I'm considering these:
[product="27702"]Mac Knife Japanese Series Vegetable Cleaver 6 1 2 Inch [/product][product="27703"]Tojiro Black Finished Shiro Ko Kasumi Nakiri 6 4 16 5cm [/product]
I appreciate the time!


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

[product="27704"]Yoshihiro Vg 10 Hammered Damascus Nsw Japanese Chefs Knife Wa Gyuto Style 210mm 8 3 [/product]
This may be what I'm looking for


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You should probably be able to find at least part of Yoshihiro's selection of knives on Amazon, then cross reference their website for more comparisons and details


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

[product="27704"]Yoshihiro Vg 10 Hammered Damascus Nsw Japanese Chefs Knife Wa Gyuto Style 210mm 8 3 [/product]
This may be what I'm looking for. Kind of top of the budget though.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You hadn't listed a budget  or maintenance equipment, for that matter. At any rate I'd advise against the 7 inch 'Asian chef's' as your primary knife without a longer backup knife, unless you are severely space constrained


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Here you go:
[product="27705"]Yoshihiro Powdered Daisu Steel Stainless Gyuto Japanese Chefs Knife 9 5 Inch [/product]
Though powdered steel like SG2, this steel is tougher and is even used in boning knives. Yoshihiro is known for nice thin grinds, and even though I've never owned one I've never heard bad about them and would recommend over Shun any day.

But unless you will be sharpening by hand then I'd recommend nothing but cheap knives as I don't think you will notice a significant difference using a pull-thru or power sharpener, and with the latter especially they will wear out too fast.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

As Foody518 mentioned, you haven't mentioned a budget or knife maintenance. For that matter, you haven't mentioned what kind of cutting surface you will be using as well.

Frankly put, sharpening gear is as important as the knife itself. Without maintaining the edge, what you will invariably end up with is a dull knife. And sending it off to be sharpened by some Neanderthal with a screaming grinding wheel is often the quickest way to destroy the metalurgical quality of the steel immediately at the edge.

You are also going to need a good quality cutting board, preferably at least 12” x 18” (300mm x 450mm). End grain hard northern maple is the usual standard against which other cutting boards are compared. Get something cheaper and either it will dull the edge very quickly (such as glass) or develop grooves which trap food waste and often can lead to subsequent food poisoning (such as plastic, nylon or poly boards).

You also haven't mentioned how you are gripping your knife. Are you using a full fisted clamping of the handle (such as seen when gripping a baseball bat or a tennis racquet)? Or, are you using a pinch grip? Racquet gripping results in the hand being sensitive to the shape of the handle. Personally I find pinch gripping makes the profile of the handle almost irrelevant.

Rick brought up using a powdered metalurgy core knife. Wonderful steel for blades – that is, if you can properly maintain the edge. But, while they can be thinned behind the edge to present a very thin profile, the immediate edge needs a microbevel of at least 16 degrees to prevent chipping. Whether the “professional” sharpener with the power tool mania can deliver such a precise angle is so iffy that I would hide the blade before letting such a “professional” anywhere near it.

Your first post shows two nakiri blades. These are knives used in Japanese households where almost the only food being cut up is vegetables. Very good for their purpose – but not a knife for all-around European or American style cooking.

That all-around knife would probably be the gyuto, which is the Japanese adaptation of the French Sabatier profile chef's knife. There's just a small amount of curvature and the point is also usable A length of 210 mm (8-1/4 inch) is probably the minimum length, but a 240 mm (9-3/8 inch) length is more practical.

I agree with you about not wanting a bolster down the length of the back of the blade. As for a bolster on the tang behind the blade, I find with the pinch grip that it's irrelevant.

On the steel used in the blade, I would probably stay away from VG-10. It can be brought to an extremely sharp edge by proper hand sharpening on waterstones. The problem is that any bead you raise during sharpening needs to be properly abraded down, rather than just snapped off.

I would suggest that your first knife should be a knife you try out and get used to in not just cutting, but also in sharpening. My recommendation would be for a MAC HB-85, which is part of the Chef Series, MAC's basic commercial line. It's a light and thin blade (4-1/2 oz and 2mm thick). It uses the same steel as most of the MAC “Pro” Series gyuto's. True, it doesn't have a metal bolster in front of the handle scales, but that can allow you to more easily custom shape the front of the handle scales to make the scales more individually comfortable for a pinch grip. And, at $70 on discount (from some eBay retailer, or from ChefKnivesToGo), you will also have money for sharpening gear.

If you want something bigger, then a MAC BK-100 should easily do the job. The BK-100 is the same thickness (2.5mm) as the MAC Pro-Series MBK-95 gyuto, the same stiffness (I have quite a few MAC's, including all of the knives I mention here), slightly longer than the MBK-95 (255mm vs 225mm) and at $110 on discount, $75 less expensive than the MBK-95 (which on discount is $185).

MAC's are about hRc 60 in hardness. An Idahone honing rod (get the 12 inch model - $30 – you won't regret the extra length) is excellent for those quick honing jobs for edge alignment between sharpening sessions.

For a first sharpening stone, get a waterstone of about 800 to 1200 grit, with a minimum surface area of 200mm (8 inches) x 50mm (2 inches). And that's a MINIMUM!! Extra length or width is always better. And NEVER use oil as your lubricant – only water.

Hope that helps

Galley Swiller


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

I would say max budget is 150 but preferably less, especially if I'm also asking for a Nakiri. I realize that I probably won't develop perfect Japanese technique but I often reached for a small Santoku from my previous knife block if I was just chopping something small and prefer the Nakiri style. 

I am also getting an end grain maple board and water stones, but will be learning via YouTube. There are also a few local sharpeners that seem very reputable. 

Galley Swiller are you saying avoid vg10 until I have more practice sharpening and choose something of lesser hardness?

I do use a pinch grip and found the shun very comfortable, but your right, the blade sharpness is certainly more important.

I will definitely look at the Mac. Thanks


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

As I posted above, VG-10 is a good steel *when properly sharpened*. But if you have not yet developed sharpening skills, then my recommendation is to avoid it for a first Japanese knife.

I am recommending the MAC HB-85 because it's a basic Japanese gyuto which is low enough priced so that you won't freak out as much about damaging something expensive when you are getting used to practicing sharpening. If you are wanting to perfect your kitchen, then developing skills (especially sharpening skills) is much more critical than gear.

As for local sharpeners, the one question I would ask is how do they sharpen? Are they using motorized grinders or are they doing it entirely by hand? If they are using motors, then walk away and don't let them even see your knives. It's as simple as that.

About the best knife sharpening videos that I am aware of are done by Jon Broida of Japanese Knife Imports. The entry YouTube site is: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

If you want a written description on how to sharpen, then Chad Ward's posting here is very good: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

Before you go for a nakiri, I would suggest that you first use a gyuto for awhile as your go-to blade. The blade profile for a nakiri is just plain flat. Even a santoku uses a tiny bit more curvature. A gyuto does have more curvature than a santoku, but it's less curvature than the Sabatier profile and is nowhere as curved as a German patterned chef's knife, which has belly, belly and MORE belly. FWIW, I almost never use a nakiri (though I have a few).

You will find that an 8-1/4 inch blade length (210mm) gyuto is just a tad longer than a regular santoku (which is 180mm, or about 7 inches long). It also has a practical tip, which is problematic with santokus and non-existent with nakiris.

Hope that helps

Galley Swiller


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

I did some browsing on chefknivestogo and cross-referenced with Amazon to see what was available and feel that these may be appropriate choices:

Misono Moly Gyuto


Tetsuhiro V Gold Gyuto


They seem to have very similar designs. Any knowledge about the how the steels compare to each other?

Also Galley Sweller thank you very much for the information. I understand what you're saying about not worrying about ruining a cheaper knife. Is there any reason you recommend the Mac over something like a Tojiro DP which does have VG10, but is roughly the same price?


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## zefir68 (Feb 6, 2012)

Re. sharpening. I think the one motorized sharpening machine that works very well for sharpening is a Tormek. If a service uses that and are competent, it's good. Most other machines might damage the knife because they heat up the steel in the process of sharpening, the Tormek does not.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-...ZLm08Vf3bsZRhPvukXMGcYfPir_hOLrV83BoCxAbw_wcB

I was actually looking at grizzly cause it's much cheaper. Even so I can't justify a grinder unless I do a lot more sharpening for $.

For the two dozen or so knives I sharpen a year, normal stones are okay


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

While a water-cooled grinder is less likely to overheat the edge, it is still highly dependent on the familiarity and skill of the sharpener in creating a proper edge.

One major problem with any sharpening system is that visits for sharpening tend to become few and far between. When that pattern develops, the user ends up with a blade which starts out sharp or somewhat sharp immediately after being sharpened, but gets progressively duller until taken back. To really be useful, the edge should be maintained, and the user needs to develop the feel of when an edge is becoming duller.

It is much, *MUCH BETTER* for a user to do his or her own sharpening. That way, the knife can be kept sharp and there will be no delay or excuse for letting it get dull.

Working with stones is the time-honored and practical method for keeping cutlery sharp.

After all, a sharp edge is essential for more than just ease in cutting. A sharp edge also means the knife wielder has much better control over where the edge goes, and control is key to safety.

Get a good ceramic honing rod for between sharpenings, and several grits of stones for sharpening.

GS


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It is certainly overkill for a home user sharpening 3 knives a year.   Aside from overheating there is chance to remove a lot of metal if you don't know what you're doing.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Also, sharpening isn't just about grinding away metal.  It's also about smoothing the ridgeline of the edge, so that the edge presents a smooth line along the length of the edge.  This is why polishing of the edge is so important to getting a really sharp edge.

Grinders, such as the Grizzly linked by MillionsKnives, generally only come with a single grinding wheel.  In the case of the Grizzly, that's a 220 grit wheel.  Pretty good for grinding away excess metal.  But not good for polishing the edge.  With something that coarse, you're going to get an extremely toothy edge.  And the bigger teeth will have much more pressure put on them (greater surface area per tooth per cutting point) and then have a tendency to get knocked out much quicker than a smoothed edge.  The result is faster dulling.

That's why stones (which can come in grits as fine as 10,000 or more) are essential for really good edges.

GS


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## full sack (Oct 19, 2014)

The knife I recommend the most, and I would keep, if I could only keep one of my knives, would be the Masamoto 240mm chefs knife. I'm a little ODC about taking care of my knives, so I would go with the carbon steel version. For the less finicky, the stainless would be a good choice. 
Many, on this site, have had good experiences with Chef Knives To Go. It's a good place to buy a Masamoto..

The Tojoro was a poor choice for me. As with others on this site, I experienced a lot of chipping on the edge.


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## kamila london (Nov 17, 2016)

I agree with the above gentlemen, it really depends on your budget and purpose of use. While I can't give an opinion about western type knives, I know a lot about Japanese ones. Within them, you can get a decent kitchen knife within the range of $150-$200. Myself and my partners Anna and Kuba-San specialise in Japanese style knives (for obvious reasons) and our clients who are professional chefs tend to choose R2/SG2 steel knives, Sakai Takayuki and Yu Kurosaki are their favourite blacksmiths.





  








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We've made a guide to choosing the steel. There is really no "better" steel over another one. Each has a different composition and it's really a trade-off between lasting sharpness vs. difficulty in maintenance. Just because a blade is made from the premium or high-end steels listed above does not automatically mean it's "better" than the lesser steels. The heat treatment techniques used by the blademaker as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance. That's what Japanese craftsmen excel in.

Also, once you get your knife, you need not to forget that it is equally important to take care of your knife properly (not putting the knife in a dishwasher is I hope an obvious advice!).

Let me know if you need any help in choosing.

Best,


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

One of the things that originally attracted me to Shun was the Wa handle felt less obtrusive in a pinch grip and more attractive in my eyes, but I'm having a difficult time finding reputable Wa-handled stainless Gyutos under $150 on Amazon. It's certainly not a deal-breaker, but I was wondering if anyone has any in mind.

I also just noticed that the Shun Classic Kiritsuke is going on sale at most retailers. Traditional Kiritsuke have more of a slicer profile, but this one actually looks to have a better french profile than the Shun chef knife and 40 dollars less to boot. Only problems are that I've read that the tip can chip if dropped or jammed into a cutting board and that VG10 can be difficult to sharpen.

I also may consider getting a cheap Tojiro DP and Tojiro Shirogami. I can practice sharpening on the Shirogami until the DP edge wears out and then hopefully be able to manage that one when the time comes. And if I stain the Shirogami I can go back to the DP as my primary.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

A shame that you have the retailer/vendor stipulations. This would be a quality practice knife for carbon care and sharpening https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s/zakuri-165mm-blue-1-kurouchi-tosagata-bocho

The tip fragility on kiritsuke style knives is just going to be a given on thinner knives with such a low tip

I don't think VG10 is an insurmountable hurdle to manage for beginner sharpening (you should try to have at least a medium and a fine stone though, to work off the burr). Provided you're okay with practicing also on another knife - either an old knife or something like that. VG10 was the first good steel I sharpened, and only crap stainless before that, and it went fine. I'm sure a better sharpener does way better with it, but a beginner can still fix edge wear and get from a dull knife to a sharper knife. Dunno the variability on this, but my Tojiro DP actually came with a pretty workable primary bevel to model off of when I got the guts to sharpen the thing


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Though it's been a while since I have posted anything here I saw your post here Kevin, and thought I may be able to help save you some possible pain in making a decision. 

First let me say all the knives mentioned already will cut as needed, and even the worst and best value can do the job so you need to remove all your existing thoughts about knives and ask yourself some questions about your real needs, abilities, and just be honest and you will find your way. 

From what you have said earlier I can not emphasize strongly enough the need to forget about what finishes, looks, and styles you think you prefer (you will likely be stunned by these thoughts later after your have spent some time learning and using etc.) And though you may have a desire to work a registry it would benefit you greatly to eliminate this as you are seriously limiting yourself with big box store or that mega online retailer, and in the end you will come up short because of it. 

I strongly recommend reading the beginner thread in my signature as it outlines how to pick out what is important, and how to adjust your short list to match real needs rather than marketing BS and fluff that seems to be confusing you. 

Also trust in the opinions and suggestions of the senior members here as they are truly helping you avoid a mistake, and though you may not get it just yet there are real reasons they are pushing back on your specific requests, and this is based on years of experience so help yourself and listen to the reasoning etc. 

As an example I agree that a Nakiri would not be a good choice for a first Japanese knife, and like many I do have one that I seldom use as it is just not as effective or as good a choice for most jobs that would be better served by a gyuto or petty etc.

If you look around here you will find plenty of info addressing that the three main knives for 95% of jobs are a gyuto, petty, and bread knife, and I would strongly suggest that your first be one of these and specifically recommend a 240-270mm gyuto that is easy to maintain, has a good profile and blade, and fits your budget.

And seriously forget about the different finishes for now as they don't do anything for performance, and try to leave beauty or looks for helping with making a decision from your short list. Otherwise your working it backwards, and may find you got the wrong knife. 

Please include the following in your next post, how long using pinch grip, what are your expectations and experience with sharpening on water stones, what is your level of willingness to learn or improve sharpening skills, do you prefer to get two knives that fit existing budget over investing budget to get an improved or better quality single one, 

Remember we have all felt your pain at one time, and know it is difficult to pull the trigger on a large purchase of something you have never held or even seen in person, and much as we all got to where we are via different routes we are mostly all happy with the trip and I know I'm not the only one who was stressed because the methods of learning and comparing what to buy could not be accountable in any normal way. 

Just clear your thoughts to remove all the crap from marketing, and follow these guys like some sort of Zen etc. And got will find your way.


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## chefsdreams (Nov 30, 2016)

Hello. and good morning. this is my first post here. i can't help noticing that this is a rather sophisticated group... a bit intimidating. so i hope you won't mind if i just watch for a while before jumping in to share.


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

Thank you again for all of the responses.

I've done a lot more research and think I have a clearer picture of what's out there, but still having trouble deciding due to all of the differences of opinion. Hopefully I can be more specific in my questions now.

I'm definitely nixing the Shun due to profile and had been thinking Tojiro DP due to the consistent recommendations, great price on Amazon and honestly it's probably what I would buy for myself as I'm pretty value conscious and may not have the skills to need anything more. On the other hand I do want something that I can care for and enjoy for a long time and I am concerned that some refer to it as a project knife that may or may not be comfortable and is difficult to sharpen. I do have large hands so the "boxy" handle may not be a big deal.

The most consistent "step up" recommendations I've seen are Mac pro, various Masamoto and Misono, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff and Suisin Inox. The latter two are the only ones that are really in my price range as I'd like to stay at or below the Shun/Wusthof classic price point as that's what people would be expecting on a registry. It seems that the Grand Cheff may be a better option from my reading with better steel and I've also read that it is easy to sharpen for stainless. It is also priced really well on amazon at $120. My only concerns are whether it's worth 2x the price of the Tojiro and that it's pretty industrial looking.

One big box type that I am still considering is the Miyabi Fusion which I could get for $80 with coupon and seems to have a pretty good profile. My main concern about that one is that the americanized Japanese knives like Miyabi and Shun seem to be unnecessarily thick and heavy considering the steel used. Not compared to a german, but I was actually able to handle some Kikuichi knives at a local store and found them amazingly light compared to these two. Honestly I think I would prefer something more in-between these in terms of weight which I would think most of the "step up" group above would fall into. I'm also debating 210 vs 240 and the deal on the Fusion is only for the 8 inch.

Others that I saw on Amazon that I could find a little about are Masahiro MV and Togiharu Inox. And finally lower-end models from known makers include Misono Moly and Tetsuhiro V Gold 10. Any experience with these, especially compared to the Tojiro?

Finally, to answer Lenny's questions (and some others)

- I have been using a pinch grip for years (with crappy knives)

- I would like to learn stone sharpening and I'm starting to realize that something that is easier to sharpen, but still takes a great edge should probably be more of a priority than really long edge retention, because I'm not going to be processing huge volumes

- The budget is only for the Gyuto. I'm just looking at cheaper Nakiri's to play around with (...ha, that sounds dangerous...)

- I definitely want to stick with stainless, maybe stainless clad

- I primarily drop and glide, but may experiment (slowly and safely) with up/down chopping

- I'm now actually leaning more towards a Yo handle and really liked the slim Yo on the Kikuichis that I tried so even though I have large hands hearing "blocky" is kind of off-putting (I am still interested in a Wa Nakiri)

- Probably a long 210 or short 240

- I found a Michigan Maple 15x15 end-grain board that is very well priced, but am wondering if I should look for something bigger after seeing more boards in stores, especially if I get a 240. It just seems like the bigger end-grains would be really heavy

- I'm not sure that a powdered steel like the one above is best/necessary for me, but I haven't found much about whether it is easier/more difficult to sharpen than VG10. Any knowledge?

Basically what I'm looking for now is to get my money's worth in terms of steel and build quality while also being relatively easy to sharpen for stainless.

Thank you again for the information

BTW, here are my other choices:

F Dick 8144709 Premier Paring Knife 3-1/2" blade stainless steel

Victorinox 10-1/4-Inch Wavy Edge Bread Knife, Rosewood Handle

Wusthof Pro 10 Inch Hollow Edge Wide Slicing Knife

Winco Heavy Duty Cleaver with Wooden Handle

...I may also get this to practice sharpening and using a Nakiri: Kanetsune Nakiri 165mm "Nashiji" finished KC-438


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Remember we have all felt your pain at one time, and know it is difficult to pull the trigger on a large purchase of something you have never held or even seen in person, and much as we all got to where we are via different routes we are mostly all happy with the trip and I know I'm not the only one who was stressed because the methods of learning and comparing what to buy could not be accountable in any normal way.


Ahahahaha, yes. I was pathologically indecisive after my first disastrous foray outside of handmedowns.

Masahiro is another inexpensive carbon to consider

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Masahiro-Ro...764734?hash=item1a215b0c3e:g:vKYAAOSwnHZYR2Fo

The Grand Chef is AEB-L razor steel, it will take a very sharp edge easily, much like carbon, and even though edge retention is not great it touches up very easily with a few stropping strokes on a fine stone.

The Yoshihiro PM steel should be easy enough to sharpen, there is little burr formation to deal with on these steels, but carbon and AEB-L easier still of course.

The WP chefs has the big belly profile most here don't care for, but the steel has better heat treat than the Vic so one of their slicers would be a good pick, maybe even their bread knives.

This for a cleaver http://www.ebay.com/itm/THAI-KITCHE...140128?hash=item210b37ffe0:g:-RcAAOSwmmxW4CQq


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@Kevin1 a few things to help indecision
-tojiro is a good house/guest knife if you upgrade later
-you can resell any knife
-its not the last knife of your life
-korin has a 15% december sale that makes suisin inox western and togiharu quite reasonably priced


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"I'm definitely nixing the Shun due to profile and had been thinking Tojiro DP due to the consistent recommendations, great price on Amazon and honestly it's probably what I would buy for myself as I'm pretty value conscious and may not have the skills to need anything more. On the other hand I do want something that I can care for and enjoy for a long time and I am concerned that some refer to it as a project knife that may or may not be comfortable and is difficult to sharpen. I do have large hands so the "boxy" handle may not be a big deal."

That's solid thinking, and so is the above about this not being your last knife, and how a Tojiro would be a good guest or house knife when your collecting accelerates 

If giving more clout to the value vs ease of sharpening and adding value to your learning experience with sharpening etc. I know you won't go wrong with a good molly steel, and a good VG10 and both in different knives at once are really telling of the differences everyone is discussing in sharpening and edge retention. 

As I found from sharpening the Tojiro VG10 and Fujiwara Moly steels of my first two knives there is an extreme difference in how these sharpen, and no matter what one may prefer the learning of this difference and how the makers way of hardening the steel and the way they sharpen so differently was what was most valuable going forward to my next higher end purchase. 

We often see multiple low cost j knives compared that are vg10 or moly steel, and though each have their differences they are mostly all good choices (remember this is the first in what may likely be multiple purchases) that will give you seriously increased performance over ordinary western knives, but more importantly allow you to have a better idea what everyone is talking about when comparing knives etc. 

In my case the ability to compare the Tojiro DP to the Fujiwara FKM (and also compare my Spydrco VG10 pocket) showed me how different the steels are, but also how different the makers talent and hardening make the downer in sharpening and edge retention. 

Consider the FKM sharpens the easiest, fastest, and with the 70/30 edge can get stupid sharp, and though retention isn't as long as the DP it freshens up quick and easy.

The DP is not nearly as hard to sharpen as some make it sound either, but you need to develop the skills to know what's going on, but you want those skills too as they are valuable when looking at next purchases etc as VG10 is popular with mid range as well. 

And when you get on to stones it is also a good idea to keep with this way of allowing a comparison add there are as many differences there as well.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

http://stores.ebay.com/227wood/ I like the rectangular form factor better for cutting boards (length > width). This guy's got pretty decent prices on the walnut sap pattern boards, especially considering the quality of what you get. The coating/finish he puts on the boards mean they need a whole lot less initial oiling (vs the MMB) to be water and stain resistant and good to use. Yes, end grain boards are heavy, and also really satisfying to cut on 

Some other nakiri options http://stores.ebay.com/Japanese-too...21050014&_sid=119345294&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

I think you can create a public eBay wishlist, would that help with your buying options (w.r.t registry)?

My impression of the Tojiro DP vs some of the knives you mentioned as like the Suisin Western Inox is that the Tojiro is going to be somewhat thicker behind the edge. Still fine to use, but mine was more pleasant to use after just a slight thinning. Note the Suisin Western Inox has a two-toned brown & black handle, just so you're aware.

225-240mm > 210mm 

Note that yes you can practice sharpening on the nakiri, but as it is fairly flat, sharpening the gyuto you will still have to get used to sharpening curvature and around the tip (which nakiri doesn't particularly have)


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

Just saw this package for $140 in Aus-8. I know it's not the best steel, but would probably be fine for me. I would imagine they would perform similarly to entry-level Fujiwara, which I've read plenty about. Seems like a pretty good deal.

YOSHIHIRO INOX Gyuto & Petty Japanese Chef Knife SET Gyuto 9.5" (240mm) & Petty 4.7" (120mm)


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

How about a mix? The AUS-10 for the gyuto and AUS-8 for the petty. The gyuto should see more use and board contact, treat yourself to a step-up.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@foody518 how do you like the suisin inox western? I was going to give one as a gift to not very knife savvy friends


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

@MillionsKnives I've only used the sujihiki from that line (a knife I gifted), which was noticeably right biased. Have seen the gyuto on display in shops, IIRC it runs asymmetrical there too, but I can't remember too much about the overall thickness of the gyutos besides thinking most all the Korin western handled offerings looked fine in that respect. The two-toned handle looks good and is finished well. Spine and choil are not eased. I think it's alright at taking abuse in that it's a bit tougher and has that tendency to bend/ding at the edge just a bit versus microchip like my Tojiro does

Good sale prices on it right now


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The pictures I've seen the gyutos are pretty thin.   I don't think they will notice the spine.  It's not like they are cutting hours at a time at home.  It's between this, togiharu, and gesshin stainless which is out of stock.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

In that case I think it'll turn out fine. I only noticed the spine because I was cutting daikon, lotus root, and kabocha with a suji no less. The initial sharpening offered is good for those types of users. It's going to need some touch-ups if used in a more abusive way, but I suppose the same goes for comparable options


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Since we have progressed a bit into sharpening and edge retention I thought this could be helpful. 

A lot of how we perceive sharpness, and therefore edge retention is specific to our individual experience, and what we believe is acceptable. 

I have found this varies more than you or at least I would have thought. 

As an example I have gifted Tojiro DP series to multiple people, and they were all estatic about them, and much as I expected that originally as they were accustomed to lower quality knives they are also still very happy with their sharpest knife ever. 

The thing is that though they are used as home knives etc. two of them have been sharpened on an almost annual basis, and one has never been touched after more than 2 years use by a fairly active home cook, and they are all very happy. 

What's even more interesting is that the the gyuto and petty that I have sharpened for the owner have not been all that bad (I expect to see them again during the holiday for a touch up) and have shown little to no chipping thus far. 

I found this interesting since like all other jknive noobs I was fearful of chipped edges from what I read online, and they do not even own a proper end grain board and use mostly all plastic or horrible hard surface cutting boards. 

Now I also have figured out how they got this bad rap for chipping easily since I had purchased a used older DP Sujihiki that is made from the old style core steel that I believe is a Swedish steel, and though it was obviously abused in the past (I'm still working on getting the edge and thinking behind it to my liking as it was a chipped up need of an edge) I have found it to be chip prone in the few times I have used/tested it. 

This is what I mean when I discuss experience, and much as we all try to be helpful in our suggestions etc. there is no substitute for actually doing something yourself. When I read about the old DP knives it not only confused what I thought about the newer version I was thinking to purchase, but also caused me to find a totally different opinion once I actually owned one. 

It was also informative to compare the difference been the two very similar knives with very different core steel,

The thing that I believe to be important is that most every single knife discussed in this thread (barf on personal experience and what I have learned from others) is a good choice, will perform better than the popular name brand western knives on the top end (wustie, henkel etc) will be light years ahead of the newer Chinese "junk" we see under countless name brands, and they all will allow thinner, sharper, longer lasting edges. 

So go ahead and pull the trigger and try to get more than one brand or steel so that you may start comparing and learning, but ultimately get the experience and info to help you find what will be your favorite later on.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I will say that with regards to my experiences gifting J-knives to friends + family, that by and large, they are treating the knife with more care in use than probably what they were doing before with their previous knives. I also gave each person a lecture upon receiving the knife (do's and don'ts) 

My personal experience with Tojiro DP (presumably newer version, purchased 2015) - it certainly has a tendency to chip at the edge rather than bend or ding, which is probably a jarring change to what users tend to expect of the toughness of their knives. I've clipped the tip of my Tojiro on something hard and it flat out chipped (no metal there anymore), then seen a Gesshin Uraku with a slightly damaged tip (both


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

My experience is most people will figure out how to use stainless western knives without wrecking them.  Carbon there's like a 50% they will rust out a lot because of poor habits.

Also people don't sharpen their knives nearly enough


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"Also people don't sharpen their knives nearly enough"

It seems either that or too often. 

Far as the chipping mentioned in the post above by foody518 I have not had that same experience, but have read the experiences of others who have so there must be something happening. 

I may be lucky, but the two I sharpen for others have not been chip prone either, and I know they do not care for them as well as I do etc. 

Even my DP petty which I have used often to remove meat from the bone and other things that have put it in contact with bones and other harder surfaces had not presented a problem from chips. 

Not saying they are perfect or best as far as steel or even hardening, just that I have not had chipping problems. 

When you think about what causes the steel at the edge to chip it would seem a combination of multiple things from hardness of the steel, strength of the steel, thickness of the edge, and many more. 

The one you have is most likely the same steel as the ones I have been discussing except for the older one which is the original design that used a different steel than the newer VG10 ones, and I believe it hardened to a higher point (hrc 62-63 or close) iirc.

Still I wouldn't be surprised if the edge did chip from hitting something hard, and I would say I would expect it to chip before the FKM or other softer molybdenum steels which Iwould expect to give more or bend. 

A side thought is that I can almost live with some chipping in these lower cost entry knives, but would be a little freaked if it was my Konosuke HD or any other higher cost knife.


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

I know I keep going back and forth, but after looking around CKTG and JCK I'm leaning more toward these:

Takamura VG-10 Nashiji Gyuto 210mm

- Honestly my initial interest was due to aesthetics, but CKTG says it's a good performer and it's currently on sale. I also looked at the R2, but it's a bit out of the price range, even on sale. I know there are concerns about learning to sharpen on VG10 and I do worry that it may be too light and thin for a first/do-it-all Gyuto. I was able to handle some Kikuichi at a local store which have similar dimensions and while they felt great I remember thinking I might like something with a little more weight than it, but less than a Shun, for example.

and

Fujiwara FKV Nakiri 165mm

- Ideally I'd like to go cheaper on the Nakiri, but I've read a lot of complaints about plastic ferrules and the Fujiwara is the cheapest Wa stainless with Buffalo ferrule that I could find with a good reputation and it looks really nice. Does anyone agree/disagree with this? I don't have a problem with plastic when it's functional, but I want it to last if I take care of it and feel like a quality product.

For Gyutos I was also looking at the two Kanehides (TK and PS60)

- I figure all 3 of the Gyutos I mentioned would have similar performance and I like the looks of the Takamura and getting it on sale. It seems like a well-respected brand.

For Nakiris I was looking at Dojo Hayashi, Kiyotsuna Josaku, Yasunori VG5 Damascus, Mac Pro, Suien Damascus and JCK Blue Moon-4

- It seems like a slim, lightweight handle that allows forward balance would be best for a Nakiri, i.e. a traditional Wa. The Dojo, Yasunori and Suien look great otherwise and the Mac looks like more of a hybrid, but it seems that if there's any knife to try a traditional Wa, it's a Nakiri.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

5.8 ounces on that 210 is going to qualify that as fairly thin, especially taking into account the weight that's there b/c of the western handle. Looks a little short (blade height, at least for my prefs), and would suggest 240mm > 210mm

Don't know anything about the Fujiwara FKV. Part of me wants to be bad and point out that the step up to $116 (incl. shipping) gets you closer to the Gesshin Uraku Nakiri at $145 that has a nice octagonal handle w/ horn ferrule and a nice grind, and looks to be thinner at the spine as well. Stainless clad semi-stainless. Saya included. https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/nakiri/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-nakiri

No much knowledge on the other names

"but it seems that if there's any knife to try a traditional Wa, it's a Nakiri." Curious as to your thoughts?


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

I figure since a Nakiri is more suited to up/down chopping than glide or rock chopping you would want the blade to do all of the work and don't really need to push through a bolster. Just my assumption though since I don't have much practice with them. Otherwise, I like the practicality of a metal bolster for cleaning.

I also just saw that CKTG added some Richmond SRS-15 way on sale. I had never considered it due to price, but a brief look seems that it is a good all-arounder. Hard steel, but thinker at the heel to compensate with a nice looking profile.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Probably not getting the right mental image for 'push through a bolster'. You pinch grip both styles of handle effectively the same way for the same cutting tasks. Seems like 1-1.5-2 ounces of weight difference can usually be attributed to the differences (full tang, metal bolster, denser material, etc.), so that certainly affects balance point and can be a strength or a weakness depending on if a light knife is beneficial for a given task.

And your (clean!) fingers should be pretty much covering the possibility of food getting stuck in the bolster/tang area because of your normal grip while prepping foods. Just wash and wipe the blade, no need to totally soak the handle. Also, I notice with my personal tendencies that I don't tend to cut foods with the very back of the blade to run up into my thumb and index fingers and therefore close to the bolster (not unless for some reason it's unavoidable, but then I just get a longer knife ).





  








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foody518


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Feb 16, 2016








Says handle scales have shrunk. That thickness difference between the scales and the tang and bolster, as well as the visible gap...can't help thinking that you're going to feel that bump/scrape/ridge, and it's not going to get better over time. I have a western handle knife with just the slightest touch of bolster marginally wider than the scales (and I wish it weren't there)...not even visible in pictures like they are showing. The guy in the video claims minimal sticking while every ingredient sticks to the blade? For $20 more there's the Takamura R2 210mm that is a teensy bit taller at the heel and shouldn't already have issues with handle scales

Does this mean your vendor choices are not registry limited anymore?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

on picking a knife: edge angle and blade thickness combined with handle ergonomics are as important as steel type. my main concern about mail order knives is you don't know how they will fit, feel and cut until you receive them.

on sharpening: buy a basic medium/fine oilstone like a Norton IB6 or JB6 then a knife to practice with https://hydestore.com/hyde-tools-50400-regular-square-point-knife-4-flat-side-wood-handle.html. some may snicker till they see you have 4"x 7/8" x 1/16" knife made of decent steel (80CrV2), reasonable heat treat (Rc59-60 in the samples I tested), full flat grind with micro-bevel. here are some how-tos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVcAjH36czQ5ODnql6MmfIUja4FcZRlc2 or https://www.youtube.com/user/CliffStamp/videos. for about $30, you have a decent stone and a knife to practice with. once you are comfortable sharpening, then you can add more stones and work on more expensive knives.

scott


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

Well I found out that someone bought the shun classic as a Christmas present, probably for about 110 with coupon so I think we're going to return for something else (there won't be hard feelings). I'd like to keep the price close. 

As far as the fit issues of the Richmond. I've read that the tang can sometimes be sanded down. Although that seems odd if we are talking extremely hard steel and I wouldn't want to ruin any finish on the handle.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If you go for those CKTG closeouts with the shrunken scales you will have to sand everything smooth and then fill the voids with epoxy.  It was nice of Mark to mark these down, usually he just tries to get full price, and if you want to return anything there is  $15 stocking charge that he will rarely wave.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

On top of return shipping costs


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Fwiw i just bought suisin inox western for a wedding gift. 15% off at korin puts it in your price range


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

As Rick is saying above, in addition to sanding you'll need to fill some gaps as well, as in the photos there is at least one visible gap between the scales and the bolster. That's a potential hygiene concern. The problem isn't just with the tang being not flush with the scales; the scale to bolster thickness difference is likely to be uncomfortable. Also, think multiple grits and sheets of sandpaper for this. Wouldn't wish it on you for a good first knife...not to mention my personal Richmond house brand experiences are more miss than hit


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Kevin1 said:


> As far as the fit issues of the Richmond. I've read that the tang can sometimes be sanded down. Although that seems odd if we are talking extremely hard steel and I wouldn't want to ruin any finish on the handle.


"extremely hard steel" is relative. for me, using rockwell measurements, Rc63-65 Rc64 is about 825 using the Knoop(Hk) scale. silicon carbide abrasive is about Hk2500 while aluminum oxide(AO) abrasive is about Hk1800 to Hk2000. If there are gaps and voids in the handle, you are going to rework or replace the handle, reshape the tang, then finish the result. given the curing times of good epoxy and top coats, plan on a week, most of that being drying and curing. a dremel tool and a small finishing sander would make the job easier.

scott


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## full sack (Oct 19, 2014)

The chipping issue, with the Tojiro, may have to do with how they are sharpened. I sharpen all of my knives to an acute angle, (thinned primary and secondary edges), but only the Tojiros chip. Not only do the Tojiros chip, the primary edge begins to fold over after some use.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Full Sack said:


> The chipping issue, with the Tojiro, may have to do with how they are sharpened. I sharpen all of my knives to an acute angle, (thinned primary and secondary edges), but only the Tojiros chip. Not only do the Tojiros chip, the primary edge begins to fold over after some use.


VG-10 is a finicky steel to HT, and the mass production techniques Tojiro employs, along with some other big producers, I would say lead to inconsistencies/chipping here.

But the edge folding you experience I'd say here is something peculiar to VG-10, ie, very thick and tenacious burr formation, another culprit of less than ideal HT. Try sharpening acute, like 10deg/side, deburr best you can, and then microbevel to 20/side. It may eliminate the folding, certainly helps with microchipping.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> VG-10 is a finicky steel to HT, and the mass production techniques Tojiro employs, along with some other big producers, I would say lead to inconsistencies/chipping here.
> 
> But the edge folding you experience I'd say here is something peculiar to VG-10, ie, very thick and tenacious burr formation, another culprit of less than ideal HT. Try sharpening acute, like 10deg/side, deburr best you can, and then microbevel to 20/side. It may eliminate the folding, certainly helps with microchipping.


The problems I've experienced I've kind of put under the label of 'understandable' or 'lacks toughness', but not faulty. Some microchipping that came out the next routine sharpening when used pretty harshly on peeling kabocha. The chipped tip from hitting it against something. I have a Ryusen/Hattori/Maruyoshi HD (the damascus VG10 one) which I'm guessing is more small batch than Tojiro, but would be surprised if it was significantly tougher than my Tojiro DP (understandably, I'm going to try and make sure there's not an occasion to accidentally mess up the tip of that much prettier and pricier knife).

Rick - Similar approach to what you're saying above: Have had noticeably better edge retention (fewer microchips per X amount of usage) by raising the angle of the primary bevel to something closer to 20 dps and paired that with slight thinning behind the edge, as opposed to before where I just kept more acute primary bevel angles


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"I'm going to try and make sure there's not an occasion to accidentally mess up the tip of that much prettier and pricier knife"

That does make sense, and I was actually considering that, though I find the way those using the Tojiro knives I had gifted them a bit harsh judging by the cutting boards they use etc. they are also very likely doing their best to treat them well since these are the nicest knives they own. Can this make all the difference? 

While sharpening these Tojiro as well as the one Petty I have held onto (I did eventually sell off all my others except this and the older Suji I bought used and am still working on) there was not any chips, but I do see the difference between sharpening these and Fujiwara and also more so in comparison to the Kosuke HD, but do not really have any problems with sharpening the Tojiro VG10, but I could see where some could find them troublesome ad they do take a bit more work. 

That said I am asking (myself included) what do you want for a sub $100 or less knife that is offering a harder steel than most options in this price range? We can only expect so much at this price point. 

Obviously it is more mass produced than other higher end and cost options, and this is going to have an effect as well. 

Still for the money I can't rule them out for recommendations for first timers, and especially those on a budget as they do offer a value in entering the world of J knives. 

Now I also sharpened my Fujiwara molly Gyuto, and this one still impresses me to the point I have no thoughts of selling, and I like they way it compliments my Konosuke HD as it is a good alternate for stuff I don't want to do with the Lazer etc. 

I'm thinking it's a combo of the grind and 60/40 bias it been sharpened to that make it cut like it does, and may cause it to feel sharper etc. but this is also a sub $100 knife. 

It's not comparable to the Konosuke, but is less than a third of the price (maybe even larger gap now as they prob increased more in price ) is made from a more forgiving steel that should bend before chipping, and except for a slightly sharp area on top that catches my finger just right I really have no complaints. 

Maybe my collection will change as I have decided to try a couple carbons this year, and I'm sure I might replace it if I find a carbon one I like better, but for the price I have nothing but nice things to say about it. 

But now the fun begins again since there is so many options out there for good quality well liked carbon knives, and with so many different steels this may be like starting all over again. 

One good thing is that I do have an improved budget to work with so I won't have to work through the entry level mass produced stuff. 

Maybe will post a thread for suggestions on steels and brands etc.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Putting a conservative primary bevel (15+ dps) on the Tojiro knives certainly helps the edge stand up better to hard poly boards, at least in my experience

@LennyD I think you'll enjoy diving into carbons. I certainly am doing so 

And having the budget to not go for one of the cheapie soft iron clad carbons is nice. The cladding on some of those rusts so readily...

I'd be curious about what you think of the Misono Swedish Carbon (dragon knife!) knives.


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## balshamboy (Dec 23, 2016)

As the owner of a knife shop, I was fascinated to read all of the suggestions.  I was also disappointed to see that Western knives are really don't get a fair shake.  I sell Japanese, European, and American made knives.  While the Japanese make many great knives, so do the Europeans.  Sure, not the department store brands, but there are small specialty knife makers in Europe that are superb without being overly priced.  For example, at the price point being discussed, Fischer Bargoin and Goyen Chazeau knives, both from France, are a great value.  The Zen line by Fischer Bargoin is hardened to Rockwell 61, a comparable range to many Japanese knives, but is far less prone to chipping than low end Japanese knives using VG10.  At a higher price point, Perceval knives are as good as any of the best Japanese knives that we sell, yet are easier to sharpen and less prone to chipping.  The special high nitrogen steel in Perceval knives give them edge retention qualities that are only found in Japanese knives that are much harder, and consequently brittle.

I was also shocked to see the Tormek being mentioned in this thread.  I am a Tormek dealer as well and I think that it is a magnificent machine, but in the hands of a beginner he will quickly ruin his new knife.  A would urge the beginner to just by a 4000/8000 combination waterstone and learn with this.  Even if you totally screw up, you can't ruin the knife with a fine stone like this.


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## drzzzz (Nov 23, 2016)

Just a few thoughts about knives:

A. Japanese knives either traditional steels or tool steel cores with Damascus sheathing are WAY easier to keep sharp that most all major brands of SS European knives 

B. You can buy directly from the Japanese producer or their co-ops. These products sometimes arrive labeled commercial samples, but I have never had one held up by US Customs.

C. Traditional Japanese knives made of White Steel #1 or #2 clad in black steel or wrought iron will rust in a few minutes left in an acidic juice or left wet. They must be oiled and cleaned carefully.

D. Modern commercial products such as those made by Gesshin Heiji are excellent. I sharpen using only a flat diamond plate 250 gr/ 600gr. A couple strokes on each side every week or so, and you can shave with that knife

drzzzz,

Just a cooking fanatic


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## drzzzz (Nov 23, 2016)

Yoshikane also makes fabulous chef's knives, They are a more modern design, not Damascus. They have a tool steel core clad in soft stainless w a hammered surface. Best large chef's knife I have ever had


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

foody518 said:


> Putting a conservative primary bevel (15+ dps) on the Tojiro knives certainly helps the edge stand up better to hard poly boards, at least in my experience
> 
> @LennyD
> I think you'll enjoy diving into carbons. I certainly am doing so
> ...


Have to agree with the idea of staying at 15 per side and would a micro secondary bevel has allowed me good results with tougher boards even if starting more acute. Still they don't cut as sharp that way either, but in a pro kitchen environment it really makes more sense that giving up a little in perceived or total sharpness for more usability is the right way to go imho at least.

Now I'm really working myself up on the carbon idea, and funny you mention the Misono as I have been eying that since I first got into j knives. The first carbon is going to be a petty or something similar (in the 150mm to 180mm range ) that could be either replace my 120mm DP or possibly compliment it if long enough.

Them once I get a better idea what I may like or dislike about the first one I would most likely look towards replacement of the DP Sujihiki (the old one with the Swedish core) with another Sujihiki or possibly a Yanagi.

I like the Yanagi and an still to use one, but from previous discussion and reading it may not be the right choice. Will have some figuring to do one get to that point.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Balshamboy said:


> As the owner of a knife shop, I was fascinated to read all of the suggestions. I was also disappointed to see that Western knives are really don't get a fair shake. I sell Japanese, European, and American made knives. While the Japanese make many great knives, so do the Europeans. Sure, not the department store brands, but there are small specialty knife makers in Europe that are superb without being overly priced. For example, at the price point being discussed, Fischer Bargoin and Goyen Chazeau knives, both from France, are a great value. The Zen line by Fischer Bargoin is hardened to Rockwell 61, a comparable range to many Japanese knives, but is far less prone to chipping than low end Japanese knives using VG10. At a higher price point, Perceval knives are as good as any of the best Japanese knives that we sell, yet are easier to sharpen and less prone to chipping. The special high nitrogen steel in Perceval knives give them edge retention qualities that are only found in Japanese knives that are much harder, and consequently brittle.
> 
> I was also shocked to see the Tormek being mentioned in this thread. I am a Tormek dealer as well and I think that it is a magnificent machine, but in the hands of a beginner he will quickly ruin his new knife. A would urge the beginner to just by a 4000/8000 combination waterstone and learn with this. Even if you totally screw up, you can't ruin the knife with a fine stone like this.


Good point on the American made knives.

I have to be honest I may not be the best one to reply to this as the only domestic made knives I have handled were all vintage ones, and besides that most were either hunting or pocket knife.

Also I'm not aware of the possible site rules issues, but since your a merchant etc. so my advance apologies if this would be a problem but it would be interesting to learn more on these as I honestly do not have a lot of information on them.

I'm sure with the way the Japanese Yen has risen over time and richer driven the cost in the US to rise for their products there has to be enough room for a quality domestic product to compete, and it would be nice to have more knowledge.

Also I agree on the higher grit for a noob, but think maybe something more coarse than 4k for a start stone as it will feel like nothing is happening and they need feedback on what they are doing.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Another thought is how it is becoming confusing to an extent as to the identity of some j knives due to the way so many small shops so through groups, and the many ones being private labeled for other brands and US sellers etc.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Balshamboy said:


> As the owner of a knife shop, I was fascinated to read all of the suggestions. I was also disappointed to see that Western knives are really don't get a fair shake. I sell Japanese, European, and American made knives. While the Japanese make many great knives, so do the Europeans. Sure, not the department store brands, but there are small specialty knife makers in Europe that are superb without being overly priced. For example, at the price point being discussed, Fischer Bargoin and Goyen Chazeau knives, both from France, are a great value. The Zen line by Fischer Bargoin is hardened to Rockwell 61, a comparable range to many Japanese knives, but is far less prone to chipping than low end Japanese knives using VG10. At a higher price point, Perceval knives are as good as any of the best Japanese knives that we sell, yet are easier to sharpen and less prone to chipping. The special high nitrogen steel in Perceval knives give them edge retention qualities that are only found in Japanese knives that are much harder, and consequently brittle.
> 
> I was also shocked to see the Tormek being mentioned in this thread. I am a Tormek dealer as well and I think that it is a magnificent machine, but in the hands of a beginner he will quickly ruin his new knife. A would urge the beginner to just by a 4000/8000 combination waterstone and learn with this. Even if you totally screw up, you can't ruin the knife with a fine stone like this.


Very interesting, the Zen line is made from Sandvick 14c28, and the 10" chefs sells for just $114. I have to say that sounds like a bargain, but I'd be interested in knowing the grind and quality of HT before recommending it.

14C28 steel falls in between the fine grain of 12C27 and 13C26, and the courser 19C27 that has better edge retention, those 3 steels are common in Japanese knives. 14C28 is not a "Wunder Steel" but is certainly very good, and surprising I haven't heard of any Japanese knives using it yet. So it t would be very interesting to see what just what the FB knife has.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, FB even make NSF knives in 12c27, and just look at the prices

http://www.couteaux-services.com/bargoin-sandvik-evolution-butchers-knives.htm


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## drzzzz (Nov 23, 2016)

Two more thoughts, esp in relation to the note about chipping in certain steels.

I would suggest that most chipping of edges, breaking of tips, etc result either from careless contact of edge/tip with unyielding surfaces of stone, or metal; or from use of the knife for a purpose for which it was never intended. e.g.- attempting to split a whole chicken backbone  with your lighter weight chef's knife is asking for injury to the knife. Get a heavy Deba or a cleaver meant for the purpose!

As previously mentioned, I also see no need for a mechanical sharpener such as the Tormek. IF you want one in the shop to sharpen chisels, etc, OK. Most of the knives under discussion can be kept far sharper than average with  a very few regular strokes on virtually any medium, fine, and extra fine flat stone or diamond flat. Paying attention to each knife every 5-10 days obviates any extensive reworking of the edges of any of your knives. I only speak from 10+ yrs of following that practice in several locations. Besides, deduct the price of the 3 sharpening flats mentioned above from the Tormek price and you can buy yourself a pretty good case of wine. Also, you have to find the counter space to mount the Tormek


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## theprimalchef (Apr 5, 2016)

Hello, for me when it comes to choosing a knife, one of the most important aspects after the quality of the blade, is the handle and how it fits and feels in your hand. One of my favorite brands is Shun by KAI. But it all comes to the anatomy of your hand and how it fits.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Re: chipping... that plus, perhaps, sharpening to such an acute angle that would only really be suitable for shaving.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Guys, the subject of sharpening angle, micro-beveling and more, as related to VG-10 in particular, was already covered earlier on in this post, time to move on.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh, sorry. I guess I failed to notice that this thread has been closed to further discussion. Merry Christmas!


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Jon at JKI made a good video talking about the relative traits and tendencies of various steels commonly used in Japanese knves


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## balshamboy (Dec 23, 2016)

A few follow-ups to my post last week, to answer some of the questions that were raised.  Fischer Bargoin, or FB as people have been abbreviating it here, is indeed primarily in the business of making professional knives for industrial setting, as the one link posted shows.  The introduction of the Zen line was there first effort at breaking into the market for fancier knives.  Because of that, they really intentionally underpriced them in order to gain some market share.  The question was asked about the grinding quality.  It is superb.  I would not have recommended it otherwise.  The Fischer Bargoin factory makes heavy use of high-end robotics (ironically Japanese robotic knife making equipment by Hitachi).  Interestingly, the other smaller company that I mentioned, Goyen Chazeau, has no robotics and does it all with good old fashioned hand skill.  In my opinion, both companies end up with a super product in the end, although they got there by very different means.

It is very true, as commented, that in both the tool and knife business there is a lot private branding going on.   I have personally toured all of the knife factories that we deal with in France and the US, and most of the ones in Japan, and they are really making the knives that we sell.  I know of one Japanese knife line which is very popular in Europe that is completely outsourced, so yes this is going on.

There was another remark that my suggestion of a 4000/8000 stone might be too fine.  I was wresting with that myself.  I often suggest the 1000/4000 combination.  I can go either way on this one.

One of the early posts suggested buying a wooded cutting board with end grain showing.  End grain is used for butcher blocks because it harder than using the same wood running with the grain, however end grain also absorbs much more liquid.  Unless you are chopping with a cleaver on the board, I would suggest a conventional wooden board.  I have been using the same piece of maple, an off-cut from one of my furniture projects, for 30 years now, and it shows only minimal wear.  It will certainly outlast me.

Finally somebody asked about American made knives.  I personally try to buy American whenever possible, and I never buy Chinese.  As we all know, it is getting harder and harder to buy American. 

The first line that I ever carried when I got into the knife business was the American made Balance Plus line by Gerber.  These were excellent knives for their price point.  The company was then bought out by Fiskars, and like all of these buy outs that I have seen, the quality plummeted and they ultimately closed shop.  The next American made knife line that I began to Carry was the LamsonSharp line by Lamson & Goodnow, an American firm that dates back to the early 19th Century.  These knives were made with the very same steel that Wusthof uses, and were of similar quality.  However, we sold far more Wusthof knives that we did LamsonSharp, and we were clearly not alone in this, as they went bankrupt.  I have heard that they are trying to reorganize under new ownership, but I don't know much about that.  I always found it very sad that the foreign made knife, of the same quality, and typically a bit more expensive, was much more sought after.  We are still selling off our stock of Lamson knives.  The only other American made line that I offer, or am even familiar with, are the knives of R. Murphy, which like Lamson at made in Mass.  This company is more focused on a commercial market and does not do a lot of business with consumer knives.  This is why I am pushing the French knives.  I honestly believe that they are the best knives made today, at most price points.  Even at the very high end, I would match a Perceval knife against any Japanese knife.  The French manufacturers that I represent are all small family owned businesses that I am happy to support, not big faceless corporations.  Great manufacturing of products that require traditional skills handed down through generations rarely comes from big companies.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I've found the Gerber kitchen knives darn near impossible to sharpen. My brother gave a blocked set to our mother years ago and they are not much more than kitchen decor.


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## balshamboy (Dec 23, 2016)

In their heyday you could shave with them.  You must have been using ones that were post buyout.  Not to be compared.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Actually, I think they are from the early 1980s. He was a knife and gun dealer so knew a bit about them. And has been lifelong friends with his distributor. Mofo hard steel. A b!tch to sharpen.

But maybe you're right and they are late 1980's. That was a long time ago and memories get vague. They are the Gerber Classic Walnut-handled knives.

What's your recollection?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

BrianShaw said:


> I've found the Gerber kitchen knives darn near impossible to sharpen. My brother gave a blocked set to our mother years ago and they are not much more than kitchen decor.





BrianShaw said:


> Actually, I think they are from the early 1980s. He was a knife and gun dealer so knew a bit about them. And has been lifelong friends with his distributor. Mofo hard steel. A b!tch to sharpen.
> 
> But maybe you're right and they are late 1980's. That was a long time ago and memories get vague. They are the Gerber Classic Walnut-handled knives.
> 
> What's your recollection?


That's unfortunate, the "kitchen decor" fate, they sound like decent examples of 440C surgical stainless, the prestige stainless of the time. No quality control/cut-corner issues here. Of course oil stones like Arks and Indias are not very good with the harder and more abrasion resistant steels, especially when it's stainless.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Well maybe that's my incentive to get watrstones.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

BrianShaw said:


> Well maybe that's my incentive to get watrstones.


That would seem worth it over using as decorative

I know nothing of that exact product, but from experience I am sure with a little extra work sharpening they can be sharp.

I know from experience that some of the old stainless can be a real pain, and especially so if the edge is messed up since it takes a lot of work if only using stones, but since I have had more than one 440c knife (mostly dive or hunting, but even a couple of cooking) I know they can get very sharp.

Edge retention has been a mixed bag, but that's another issue all its own.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks for the info Balshamboy, would you also just post the basic numbers for the 240/9.5" chefs, ie:

Edge thickness

Spine thickness 1cm from tip

Full or partial distill taper

Flat or convex grind?

It's important to know these things before suggesting a particular knife for someone.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Rick Alan said:


> Of course oil stones like Arks and Indias are not very good with the harder and more abrasion resistant steels, especially when it's stainless.


it is matching stone to blade and the technique the sharpener is using. as I posted in another thread, "extremely hard steel" is relative using rockwell measurements, Rc63-65 Rc64 is about 825 using the Knoop(Hk) scale. silicon carbide abrasive is about Hk2500 while aluminum oxide(AO) abrasive is about Hk1800 to Hk2000. this is part of my recommending a Norton coarse/fine all Crystolon or medium Crystolon/fine India(180/360 CAMI).

two other American makers, Hyde and CS Osborne, do not make "kitchen" knives, but their 3" to 5" "Industrial Hand Knives" work well as paring or general purpose knives.

440C is another ball bearing/turbine blade steel that makes a decent knife. It easily hardens to Rc60-61 and has enough free chromium to take beautiful mirror finish. because molybdenum is easier to source in the far east, Hitachi produces ATS34 and Takefu makes VG10. As i have noted before, Hitachi won't export ATS34 and Takefu won't export VG10


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

There is a reason why all professional sharpeners use waterstones, simply, they're faster than oilstones.  They don't clog and the medium refeshens itself while you sharpen.

You can actually get silicon carbide waterstones, but for whatever reason they don't work well.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> There is a reason why all professional sharpeners use waterstones, simply, they're faster than oilstones. They don't clog and the medium refeshens itself while you sharpen.
> 
> You can actually get silicon carbide waterstones, but for whatever reason they don't work well.


All?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

BrianShaw said:


> All?


Who knows!? There may be a sharpener of performance knives out there who has some oddball customers with custom tungsten carbide gyutos. But in that case I might advise using diamond waterstones instead.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Rick Alan said:


> There is a reason why all professional sharpeners use waterstones, simply, they're faster than oilstones. They don't clog and the medium refeshens itself while you sharpen.
> 
> You can actually get silicon carbide waterstones, but for whatever reason they don't work well.


that is kinda out of the blue. the professional sharpeners I know(myself included) use oil stones, water stones, diamond plates and bench hones, disc grinder and belt grinder to sharpen with. the type of media, how friable is the media, grit size of the media and the pressure exerted determine how fast a stone works. the media "Refreshing itself" means the stone is breaking down and after a session no longer flat and true.

oilstone/waterstone is like beer and wine. some like one hate the other. some use both. neither group is right or wrong.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I was omitting power equipment, of course, and limiting this to bench stones for putting and edge on or final shaping/thinning.

I won't argue with what fits some individuals routine, but seems to me the vast majority nowadays prefer/would prefer waterstones. Cut fast, don't clog, no messy oils [which are needed for heavy metal removal] and flatten easy. Some are very hard as well as fast cutting, and stay flat well enough. And they are readily available in grit sizes from 20 to 60K, you won't find that in oil stones.

You need to also consider the steels used in a lot of performance knives, I wouldn't want to try and sharpen something like SG2/R2, and many others would fair much better on waterstones. I haven't heard of anyone seriously dealing with Japanese knives, or the big-buck American custom makers for that matter, that uses oilstones.

They have their uses (I even have a Norton Crystalon I like using to touch up my machete) but I think the time of oilstones for kitchen knives has pretty much come and gone. Though I wouldn't blame someone with a vintage Sab for sticking with Indias and Arks.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Rick Alan said:


> I was omitting power equipment, of course, and limiting this to bench stones for putting and edge on or final shaping/thinning.


power equipment is how most Pros sharpen. a very low speed wet belt grinder is the easiest and fastest way to sharpen. When i finish on the grinder, the blade will slice newsprint and shave with pulling. I use a stone to make sure the final edge is "Repeatable", in other words that the new owner of the knife can recreate the original edge.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes Scott, Dave Martel himself, a well known sharpener of Japanese knives, has said he could produce great edges with a belt sander, and does.  But when when you say easiest that is a very relative statement, aside from the cost of equipment and space to put it, it is not any means by which most individuals could produce anything but a disaster.  Given an angle guide and a machine with a good controller that could run slow and smooth, and a very high grit belt, and with some practice on throwaway knives, yah, you could learn.  But its a whole n'other ball game.

Waterstones remain the best avenue for those coming here for advice on sharpening.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Yes Scott, Dave Martel himself, a well known sharpener of Japanese knives, has said he could produce great edges with a belt sander, and does. But when when you say easiest that is a very relative statement, aside from the cost of equipment and space to put it, it is not any means by which most individuals could produce anything but a disaster. Given an angle guide and a machine with a good controller that could run slow and smooth, and a very high grit belt, and with some practice on throwaway knives, yah, you could learn. But its a whole n'other ball game.
> 
> Waterstones remain the best avenue for those coming here for advice on sharpening.


Well said, and it does make sense to try and keep things less confusing, and especially for those new to J knives and sharpening.

One of the more helpful bits of advice I received when first finding my way here was from BDL to first research and decide on a knife or knives before looking into stones.

Though hind sight is 20/20 I can still remember very well how overwhelming it was too try and absorb all the info on both topics separately, and I can't imagine trying to do it all at once.

IMHO this changed considerably after having had a chance to handle and experiment with the new knives and stones as I had an ability to firm experience and comparisons between the different steels and stones.

I can't imagine how much more confusing this all could be for a member who may be a noob to sharpening as well as J knives, or worse as I had been able to call on previous years experience with sharpening both cooking and hunting knives on multiple types of media (oil stones, home made sand paper covered blocks, and more) and that really helped.

Though I still use all the previous old stones and techniques etc I have found I'm most comfortable with the whetstone for all the J knives, and even have used them for some of the less hard old stuff I have.

I will admit that there is a learning curve, and this does take time to work through, and this will be longer for those with less sharpening experience. Due to this the idea of purchasing a machine to eliminate the whole learning process is attractive, but now makes little sense as the easy to learn less expensive options just do not provide the best results while still not allowing the customization available to freehand, and the more desirable slow speed wet belt types discussed are much more expensive and seem to have a similar learning curve to freehand.

Now I don't want to bury any more good sharpening info inside a what knife to buy thread, but this is all great info, and it world be very helpful to add to this the differences between different whetstones and how they would benefit a noob. Think of how a glass stone and softer high end stone would be for someone learning to hold a repetitive angle vs the feedback and feel etc.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

LennyD said:


> I can't imagine how much more confusing this all could be for a member who may be a noob to sharpening as well as J knives, or worse as I had been able to call on previous years experience with sharpening both cooking and hunting knives on multiple types of media (oil stones, home made sand paper covered blocks, and more) and that really helped.
> 
> Though I still use all the previous old stones and techniques etc I have found I'm most comfortable with the whetstone for all the J knives, and even have used them for some of the less hard old stuff I have.


I recommend for any noob or newbie, buy a basic combination stone and a beater knife. an 8" Norton India coarse/fine is less than $25. A Hyde 4" square point is about $7. Mineral oil is about $2. once a person is comfortable with technique, you can move to different stones. Probably as important as sharpening is proper knife use. My knives are very hard steel, very low edge angle, very thin and need to visit the diamond hone about once a month. Always use a wood or poly cutting board. Never cut on a china plate. Knife is not a screwdriver or pry bar. use a hacksaw or the Ginzu from last Christmas to cut frozen food or bone. try different ways of cutting: pull, push, rock.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

King and other combination stones, starting at under $20, don't require mineral oil or their mess, not hard and unforgiving like oil stones, produce a better edge and do it easier:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...ation+stone&rh=i:aps,k:King+Combination+stone

The OP seems to have lost interest, and I am heading in that direction.


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## kevin1 (Nov 14, 2016)

Haven't lost interest at all, I have actually read all of the comments and thank everyone for keeping the discussion going.

After reading several forums and getting way deeper in this than any sane person would without making a purchase, I think I finally have a bit more clarity. I agree that I should get something entry level and work on sharpening. However, I am not looking for recommendations for a beater, I can certainly find one of those on my own to practice with. I'm at the point where I want something that is quality, but still appropriate for my skill set and I can always send it out for sharpening at first if I need to.

With that said, I was watching a lot of Jon Broida's videos and am thinking that something in the 58-59 HRC range would be most appropriate while I practice my knife skills. I'll probably be using it about every other day for relatively small amounts of ingredients so I don't think that edge retentions should be a big factor. I also don't really need something laser thin. My fiance will also be using it and, though she's taken some cooking classes and will have to adapt to using a sharper knife just like me, she's not exactly going to be watching videos on proper gyuto technique. 

Watching his videos also encouraged me to throw another contender into the ring, the Gesshin stainless. It is 58-59 HRC, pretty average height, weight and thickness. He does not disclose the steel, but I think I can safely assume that it would be comparable to something like Aus-8. He and others say that the Gesshin lines have top notch quality control, fit and finish and customer service relative to other entry-level japanese lines. 

Other than that I haven't been able to find out nearly as much about the entry stainless line as the Gesshin Ginga. I would imagine that it compares to things like Fujiwara FKM, Yoshihiro Aus-8, Kagayaki basic with the aforementioned advantages. In that case, it's probably a pretty good value. Does anyone have experience with enough of these to compare? It seems like the Fujiwara is more often recommended, but that may be because it is more commonly available. I don't mind paying a 30 dollar premium for similar steel if every other quality is in the Gesshin's favor.

I am still tempted by some of the deals at CKTG, but am trying not to be tempted by the wrong factors. If a Gesshin is as good or better build quality than the Takamura and Kanehide that I mentioned earlier with only less edge retention and style than I think it would be the better choice for me. I do still like that the Takamura has only a partial tang western handle to move the balance point forward.

I was also wondering if anyone knows enough about these to compare to the higher priced Gonbei Aus-10, Suien VC and Gesshin Ginga lines that he carries. I'll email him as well, but he's probably backed up after the holiday. If the only major difference is steel and thickness, I don't think it's worth the premium to me. The only other thing that I'm concerned about with the Gesshin stainless is that the pictures on JKI.com make it look like a fairly round belly throughout on the 210 model. I know people often recommend 240 anyway, but I was really leaning toward 210.

Thank you all again.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

enjoy whatever you decide on and have a happy new year


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Kevin1 said:


> Haven't lost interest at all, I have actually read all of the comments and thank everyone for keeping the discussion going.
> 
> After reading several forums and getting way deeper in this than any sane person would without making a purchase, I think I finally have a bit more clarity. I agree that I should get something entry level and work on sharpening. However, I am not looking for recommendations for a beater, I can certainly find one of those on my own to practice with. I'm at the point where I want something that is quality, but still appropriate for my skill set and I can always send it out for sharpening at first if I need to.
> 
> ...


One thing you get with JKI is free initial stone sharpening upon request. So that helps in setting an example of a workable primary bevel to follow as well as a more durable OOTB edge.

Ginga- laser. That is the one word that most encapsulates what it is, what you will be getting/what people get it for. Note that thickness, especially behind the edge, significantly affects a knife's performance.

Note that Suien VC is fully monosteel carbon, not stainless.

If you can step it up to the Gonbei AUS10 / Gesshin Uraku (western and wa-handle, respectively), absolutely encourage that you consider doing that. On F&F, I know that the Uraku line has the choil eased. They still have good toughness while having increased edge retention due to higher %C content and higher hardness as compared to the AUS-8 or equiv steel lines of knives.

The Takamura is going to be thin (think laser again) and is going to give up some of that relative toughness.

You should definitely shoot Jon an email or call up JKI 

If you are wanting a more blade forward balance point, look to wa-handle knives and longer blade length. Both factors help with that.

The more rounded belly on the 210 is true to some other lines as well. I feel the same way with my Tojiro DP. You just have less length for the knife to resolve from the curve up to the tip into a nice long-ish flat spot at the heel. And some J-knives don't really resolve into a proper flat spot at the heel regardless. In fact, that was why I was driven to look for longer knives after just 2 or so months with the Tojiro. And before that, I was using like a 6 inch chefs. Sooooo...that is why I really try to suggest keeping an open mind in stepping up to the 240mm length, would rather encourage those looking for that special purchase to buy once and deal with just a little more learning curve in usage than to be left wanting not too much afterwards.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"I don't mind paying a 30 dollar premium for similar steel if every other quality is in the Gesshin's favor."

Don't let yourself get stuck on this as the possibility of upgrades are never ending. 

It could go on for ever, and the whole idea of comparing something totally online is making the decision process more difficult because you can't actually handle the different knives, and this combined with the various different likes and experiences of the reviewers makes it really tough to understand something you have never even held in your hand. 

I probably said this earlier, but once you pull the trigger and break the ice with your decision on your new knife, and have had some time using it a lot of the confusion will go away. 

That is great for the next purchase as you will have a much better understanding, but you have to get to that point, and it looks like your there as you have a good list.


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