# What do you think?



## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I have a several questions all on the same theme: I'm considering doing my own thing as a cake decorator and I really want to know other peoples opinions.

1. I've spent sometime lately looking at bakeries in my Chicagoland area. I've come up extremely dissapointed with the quality I've seen. First, in the City at least 70% of all the bakeries are Spanish (not that that's bad) but why are their so few American or European shops? I printed out a list of bakeries to visit thru digital city.com and MANY businesses were no longer in business. 

2. I'm rather shocked at the market price for pastries. I think their low, too low. The pricing is what squeeze's most bakeries out of business or do you think it's a quality issue? Unless you have alot of dollars to complete, the big bakeries that dominate the market do so because no little baker can afford to offer such a big product line at prices that would be so close to cost for the little guy. Wrong or right?

3. I talked to several country club managers inquiring about their pastry needs. The consensis is, they need good product and have a hard time finding it. Then they tell me their ceiling is $22. for their high end items. While out of their other cheek they brag at how ellite their clientele is. I'm wondering what all you chefs out there (who buy in) pay for your pastry items???? Someone shot me the figure that he charges his members 3x his cost on purchased desserts. In the retail business 2x is standard mark up. 3x only makes sense to me when your incurring labor making the item, I don't get the profit structure there?

4. Why are all the big name cake designers in NYC? I can't find a "name" in Chicago for who's good. Are the rich people not spending it on dessert? I think Ben Isreal is in CA but don't any other large cities have the demand?

5. All of the clubs make the client find their own wedding cakes (even clubs with pastry staffs don't do wedding cakes). Another thing I don't understand is: Why don't they have a network of designers and at least make the intro.s for the members. Instead of loosing money for a dessert, why don't they make a profit on it? It's another hassle, yes but all they have to do is provide an intro and sell through them, no? 

6. Why are people willing to spend small fortunes on floral centerpieces at their parties and not care about quality in their desserts? Neither last and both can be dazzling? I tend to believe no man remembers the flowers but they all remember the dessert. Yet the women party planners don't sell to men, why not? Or, is no one doing any dazzling desserts?


This isn't a grip list, I really want to know what other people think? This will help me understand what I'm facing if choose to open a business again. It's like a dessert waste land in my area. I'm trying to figure out why. Has the price not matched quality? Have we driven away our clients? What do you think?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Hi Wendy,
Your post is confusing to me, because you start out by saying that you'd like to start a cake decorating business, but by the looks of it, you'd like that to encompass pastries and buffet desserts as well? 

I think that there is definitely a market for 'artisan' style pastry, and there must be people willing to pay more than commercial bakery prices for an exceptional product. However, if there are no bakeries doing that in your area, this can be a trail for you to blaze. This is still a fairly new trend, and Chicagoland could be a little slow catching up. But with all the money in your area, there HAVE to be people who appreciate--and seek out--quality. If you want to sell to clubs and caterers, I would make out a price list, with pictures or descriptions, and give out freebies. This is how people will truly get to know your product, and know that you are different than the huge bakery downtown.

You said that the club owners have a ceiling of $22. I'm don't understand what that's for. Since I don't have much experience in buying pastry wholesale, I can't reply to that part, but I thought it needed clarifying. I didn't know what they want for that $22.

Cake decorating on its own as a business, I think is easier to market, and requires much less production space or staff, and thus offers a higher profit margin, but doesn't offer as wide a variety for you as a baker, which I know you know. If a club is going to recommend you as one of their wedding cake people, (a)-they have to know you and what you do, and (b)- they'll want a cut of the profit. I do cakes for a couple of caterers, and I know they jack up the prices. But, because they give me a lot of repeat business, I offer a slightly lower price than I'd ask of a private client.

Bottom line, whether you're doing pastries or wedding cakes, nobody will want to pay more for a product they haven't tried. But if yours are leaps and bounds better than what is normally served in your area, then there has to be someone who'll be willing to try it. Have you spoken to establishments other than country clubs? Maybe caterers, hotels, or restaurants? You can also put together little gift baskets with pictures and samples of your work, and send it out to party planners. I think they are always looking for what's stylish and trendy, and can help lead you in the right direction.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm scared to re-read my original post, just look at the time when I posted it (that should explain a little).

Anyway I am evaluting several things (trying to figure out what I should learn from my exploration) so my mind is scattered and trying to sort out a couple things.

I'd love to own my own bakery. BUT I don't personally believe it's a wise business to open in MY area. WHY? I'm not totally sure I have my facts right (that's why I'm asking for HELP), but as I see it, the reason there are so FEW bakeries is a combination of several things.

A. You must sell in volume to compete with the prices already established by wholesale and (the surviving) retail bakeries. You'd need a good sized staff and kitchen to complete with the big guys. As reference look at one our biggest Chicagoland bakeries www.deerfieldbakery.com , I couldn't possible sell anything that cheaply (granted, their not quality).

B. Using rough numbers (from my experience selling retail) I figure 1/2 of my price is profit and 1/2 of my price is cost. (For example) If people will only pay 12 dollars for a pie and a restaurant or club will insist they have a 3x mark up that means the pie maker has to sell it for (something like) 3.25 per pie. Spilting that in half means I have to produce (my costs should be at) that pie for 1.62 and my other half leaves me a profit of $1.62. That's not worth the effort, UNLESS you sell big dollar items and in volume. Using that mark up across the my whole (imaginary line of products) I couldn't afford to sell wholesale, they'd eat my whole profit.

Then I turn my attention to retail sales, and this is what I see there.

C. If there is a market for Upscale pastry items....how come I can only find 6 or so bakeries in the whole area that provide that?

D. Possible people just DON'T go to classic bakeries anymore? Case inpoint in my area Riche Melman (is our most successful multi. restaurteur) has opened a chain of stores called www.TheCornerBakery.com . The supprising thing is, it's not a bakery, 70% of the space is a sandwhich shop with 1/2 of 1 case selling a couple danish, scones and small pastires (no cakes, no tortes). I'm thinking even he realized baked good alone won't pay the rent. I just don't get it?

E. The average cost of a retail location in the suburbs is somewhere around $1,500. for the smallest available space 1,000 sq. feet or so (and it's very very hard to find buildings leasing small retail spots, forgetting location for now).

Any one agree or disagree with the above points? Does this make sense? Would you draw the same conclusions from your experiences?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

For some reason, I can't conect to that 2nd link, but anyway...
Having never bought or sold pastries wholesale, the prices that you're telling me people want pies for is not realistic. I wonder if you're just not finding the ones who truly look for quality, or maybe they are just too few and far between in your area. How are the higher end bakers surviving these days? Whom do they sell to? What are their prices? I wouldn't even bother comparing your idea with Melman's enterprise. It sounds like an entirely different concept, in spite of its name. 

Do you have artisan bread bakers in your area? The reason I ask is that these types of bakeries typically sell a much more expensive product, but the quality is notably better. Maybe those shop owners can help give you info on how to best sell your product. You wouldn't be a threat to them, because you're not doing bread, but you might have the same market.

Just an idea...


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Creme de la Creme has a small high end in Lincoln Park....pastries and candies. They do alot of creative shtuff.

there is a new bakery here, gold leaf, layered scratch desserts, they moved into a neighborhood that is coming alive again, next to a restaurant but with a kitchen that can crank out pastries....last time I was in they were making 2100 bites for a high end hotel that has a pastry chef for their restaurant but needed volume for the catering end. 
One of the creative bakers in town started in a church kitchen bought his own place now serves lunch and dinner, within the last year has been doing more offsite catering. He makes cakes from scratch but does not do fancy decorating, alot of fresh flowers.
Helen Fletcher (wrote a pastry cookbook years ago) does desserts that freeze....
Axucarte is very high end, sells to caterers and does loads of wedding cakes, Julie has gone from small space to her home to now her own bakery in a funky neighborhood.
Sugaree is in a small offshoot neighborhood, they do not have retail only sell direct and wholesale...they are expanding.
So these guys are all growing and doing great....
I got a e-mail this am from someone who wanted me to make Regan Daley's Cazula Pie, I e-mailed back that since I had not marketed it, the cost would be both prohibitive to her and me to make one.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Maybe Breadster knows of someone, but I haven't found any artisan bread bakeries yet. D Amato's in Chicago used to have a great sour dough but....as far as I know I go to Iowa for a GREAT loaf of bread.

As far as I've learned to date:

Each country club (BUT I'm sure this must apply to restaurants too? I WISH SOME OF THE CHEFS HERE COULD HELP...) chooses it's own route as far as how they handle dessert products. For instance if they have a headchef who can make some desserts, then they ONLY want to sell desserts that they can profit from. Otherwise desserts from another source is a lose of profit for them. Example:Instead of profiting $25. person off an event they profit only $20. .So if they bring in a dessert they want it to be something where they'll make more then their usual profit off dessert (to make it worth while to them). So if they want to make up for a loss of $5.00 they want to first charge more than $5.oo (for their incentive) and only pay 1/3 perjected profit, so a $6.00 retail price per person (what they'll charge the client) they'll only pay $2.00 to buy (X3 method) it.


Some places have pastry staffs but they have to do alot of dessert volume to cover that expense or they have to be able to charge enough (which means expensive desserts) to cover their costs. It's obviously a hassle or there would be WAY more pastry chef positions.


Other places have their hands tied with chefs that can't do dessert at all. In those cases they aren't losing money by bring in items. In fact it helps them providing by providing something they don't have to invest in with labor. So they don't care if the member brings in their own desserts, they don't loose a penny. They gain a happy client because they couldn't provide a total product.

That's why country clubs let people bring in their own wedding cakes. They can't make them. It doesn't take money out of their pocket. 

But what I don't understand is why they don't actively search for cake decorators, so they could be the 'retailer' of the cake. They could put a 100% mark up on wedding cakes and make money there also. But for some reason they are avoiding doing that....? So then, either it's a great idea for me to market myself to them or it's a bad idea because they don't want anything to do with wedding cakes. 

So which is it? Why am I asking, so I don't waste too much effort going down a dead end street...
I'll keep asking managers and people I'd sell to (I'd love to hear from chefs here too), but I also want to know from other pastry people if their views are similar to mine (am I on track?)


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow, Schroomgirl are the places your naming all in Chicago (I couldn't find them) or are they by you down south?

I know someone is opening a upscale bakery/chocolate shop on Michigan Ave. Chicago, but I don't know if it's open yet?


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi W.Debord 

Here's some cake people in your area.

Alicia Boada- Edible Work of Art, Long Grove

Margaret Lastick- Royale Icing, Oak Park royaleicing.com

Azucarte.com, She is in St. Louis.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Nope only Creme de la Creme is in Chicago....Steven the maitre d at the ritz reeled off a few names of pastry places when I visited chicago last April....sorry to have forgotten them.

The rest are here in STL and thriving....


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

So I guess I could be a little more clear.....these guys all started out small in CHEAP places, some in their homes. They sell to upscale caterers that need a beautiful product and will make monies elsewhere. They also do alot of direct sells. Some do sell to restaurants, again high end and regular. I don't know the wholesale pricing but it works for these guys.....Price your food so you make a profit, let them add the frou frou and you both make money....many high end restaurants would love to not deal with desserts in their kitchens.
So the businesses I named have been around for 4+ years. I started out the same time as Azucarte. The others have morphed through the time I've lived here 7 years.


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy....
this is why i've asked you to come visit me (traffic is a fact of life- deal with it!!! ) so don't do it every day- just come visit! 

i am faced with these issues every day- i think most bakeries are- that's why we (the upscale bakeries here in Chicago, do both retail and wholesale)we'd all love to do just retail- and get top dollar for it- but it's very hard to make it with just retail

location is so important- but good ones cost so much$$$$- and frankly coming up with a $3500-$4500 nut each month just for rent is not something that would allow me to sleep at night

so wholesale becomes a consistent rent-paying, bottom-line feeding necessity- it also increases visibility and customer awareness and can be a form of advertising-

i think Creme de la Creme does some of the nicest work in the city of fine pastries and was shocked to see them selling at one of the Whole Foods markets- but then not so shocked because there is no way they could make it retail where they are

Red Hen Bread - does artisan breads - in Chicago - has a thriving retail store and recently bought a huge space to take care of their growing wholesale business

Our business is 70% wholesale but we wholesale only part of our product line 

we have high- end pastries, tortes, etc in our store - and i will not wholesale them- i've had many restauranteurs come in and want to buy them and ive said sure- but you buy them at the counter price- some do- most of our customers who buy our products at stores dont even realize we make all these other items- unless they come to the store which we try to get them to do via various means- but we have built a whole new following for our cakes and tortes now

the rest of our business is mail order- which i really enjoy-
we have customers who order from all over year after year - you get to know them, their families, friends etc. it builds.....

so you see, it's a bit of give and take- we make our margins on the retail and mail order and do what we want- and we get the volume through wholesale

but ****, it's still all a *****!


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

hey, i didnt say******* what's a ******?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the leads Schroomgirl. I found Alicia Boada (she REALLY is a talented Lady) last night sorting thru a file. She was in Pastry Art & Design when they featured mini wedding cakes. Anyway in her profile she says her annual volume is 900 to 1100 cakes, with 8 people peak and 3 off season on staff. She is in a GREAT area (it's actually where my Mother had her bakery so long ago), now it's so wealthy with new money...... PLUS she started a whole sale pastry shop in Chicago??? I'm not sure that makes sense to me, but then this is what this tread is about.

I realize everyone always wants everything on the same day but I would have thought 1100 cakes a year would make her rather jolly. How she comutes between 2 businesses....? Obviously she is VERY TALENTED, I have seen her work on local tv, but hum....

I've been trying to look up www.royaleicing.com since I heard them on the radio 2 weeks ago, but their site isn't working.

Is anyone familar with www.discoverambrosia.com? It's local for me. Owned by Richard Rivera, he was published in "Great Chefs, Great Chocolate" a while back. I've stopped in there many times, I always wonder what he's up to because there is never anyone in there or activity in the kitchen??? His work tastes great (expected normal pastry work) but I think he scares people with his pricing? He doesn't put any prices in his cases.... ( $1.65 for one petite 1" (mouse decorated) eclair), I'm extremely familar with his market and inspight of it being wealthy they are extremely frugel and rarely in town clients. So basicly I'm wondering what he's doing to pay the rent?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Back to the business aspect....starting out with-out over head is a given fact.

breadster is saying there just isn't the retail buyers out there to make the ends meet.... that's what I'm thinking too.

Unlike entrees alot of caterers, clubs, restaurants don't want anything to do with dessert and you can bring your own cake almost everywhere. So why isn't everyone adverstising to the general public? I don't get the wealthy magazines often, but I haven't seen any bakeries advertising (caterers and party planners only). In the big wedding magazines the only places I've really noticed showing wedding cakes in their ads are the top line hotels.

Do you or have you advertised before breadster? I'm sure you must have given your background....did it work?

As a side note what do you think of this company, www.cookiebouquet.com and they also are www.cookiebydesign.com ? It's a franchised business gone national. Think they'll make it? Good or bad concept?


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Wendy: there will be a segment later today on the radio show "Marketplace" about why this is a good time to start a business. Try to listen if you can. It's on Public Radio -- try WBEZ FM, 91.5 -- and also has a website: Marketplace


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the lead Suzanne, I'll check it out.


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

ah so much to say- so little energy!

WenDB- i'm not saying that there are not the retail buyers out there- there are plenty of reknown businesses (eateries) where people travel miles to go to them- but they are few ( and i'm sure still do some wholesale)

my dream has been to open a shop on Michigan Avenue or Oak St.- not only are they the highest per capita shopping streets in the city, but the business would come from the well- heeled local residents as well as tourists- and i really believe I could do great there- but the rents would be around $7-12,000 a month!

yikes!!! cakes and cookies are not Giorgio Armani suits- thats alot of pastry to make and sell!

bakery businesses can often be seasonal- we really slow down in the summer - when peoples eating habits change and picks up Sept 1 like a back- to- school bell - that really gets harry where cash flow is concerned

there is a woman - the cake lady- who rents space from a caterer next door to me- ive seen her menu and her work- its beautiful-
she seems quite busy- i've referred people to her- i'm sure the caterer does as well
- maybe you'd like to speak with her?

the key- is to keep your overhead down- when you are starting out- thats why i started the whole thread about renting space to a pastry chef-

i rented space for a few years from a pizza parlor ( in the middle of the night) and then a caterer before i got my own place

word of mouth is a big part - you have to build the business

if funds are no object - then go for it

re advertising- i believe in it wholeheartedly- again it's so darn expensive- one ad isnt going to do much- it really does take repeated ad inserts to make a dent in peoples consciousness- so that you are the one they think of the one time they need something special- even one new customer - is a new customer

even better though not a substitute is PR- most food editors are always looking for the newest, best, unique subject or person to write about - and it comes across to the public as an endorsement- 

ok thats all for now- my puppy is snoring and i have to hug her.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I think I understand many of the basic problems of bakeries, but do I?

I'd like to mention some ideas of what I 'think' I'd do business wise to get over some of those hurdles. Any feed back would be welcome, ie. how nieve am I?

If summers are slow in bakeries they certainly aren't at country clubs. Although I'm not going to outline a plan, I'm certain since they have a need that somehow something could be worked out to fill their needs, at least the ones in driving range.

Summer is also the time for weddings and wedding sweet tables. I would market my business to party consultants, caterers (although I'm discovering more of them have pastry dept. then ever) banquet halls and major bridal shops, bridal expo.'s, florists and others working with brides. 

As far as advertising I would target local papers thru out the Metro area (although I don't yet know the costs, maybe I wouldn't be able to afford them?). I know I couldn't possible afford magazine ad's. I think I would also do some dirrect mailings in affluent areas, certainly target pervious catering business that would be familar with me and areas near my last job, where I have a reputation.

I see January thru April as horribly slow in the biz. I see that as time to reload, re-design, re-group. Who's buying from you during that period breadster?

P.S. My Mother thought location was important when she choose to open her bakery in Long Grove (which is a little tourist shopping town). From what I saw and think I understood from it I don't see the advantage to most retail locations (with the exception of Michigan Ave.). Even in an Oak Street location....is a mistake in my opinion.

My reasons why (Please tell me if I'm all wet?): The 'well to do' don't eat pastries as a treat, they go jogging as a treat, buy a starbucks or have a coctail. When people walk to your location weather plays to big of role in detouring people. Winter months are horrible in less your in a mall situation (which I why I think many baking franchises (Like Mrs. Fields, Cinnabon) that don't do fullservice or wholesale business locate in malls, convience to the customer and the average person is the spontanious pastry buyer not the upper class) Plus in busy areas people can't find a parking spot and if they don't get out of the car, they don't buy anything. 

Plus, the bakeries I see in wealthy comunities aren't doing any foot traffic to speak of (when I walk into their stores their empty). I think the weathly customer isn't a walk-in customer. The people who walked into our shop and bought, actually apeared to be the lower-end client, for whatever reasons (perhaps a $2.00 eclair was all they could afford? vs. a nicknack that cost $20.00?)

I think the wealthy clients spend more money at independant (non francise) businesses. Where taste is important but looks are just as important because they want to impress their guests. These people place custom orders, they don't come by and pick up pastries off the shelf.

I think everyone targets the wealthy client. I wonder about targeting the less wealthy, if that's not a bigger market? Coffee shops in strip malls on major routes to highways??? Drive thru starbucks....
A little competition with the local grocery store for the average guy who wants somthing better? Sometimes those people spend more money then the rich....

Non-pastry people, anyone agree or disgree?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Wow,

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

I have always worked for someone else,never been out on my own.Geez theres just so much that needs to be takin into account it's mind boggling. Would it be smart to start small,in a lower rent area and go wholesale at first.Go to every hotel,restuarant country club,deli ETC with samples and menus and see if you can get your foot in some doors. because of seasonality you would have to really be ontop of whos busy when.

I would like to put more thought to this topic...But I do not have the type of expereance you are talking about to really help.

But,I'll be selfish because I am really learning something here
cc


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Ah, but see I'm am only guessing. I can't see if my view is on target. 

I've called some businesses and gotten some feed back but alas I haven't knocked on enough doors to know for certain what's happening. There are many branches that need pastries many reasons why somethings and some businesses aren't a viable avenue. Many things to evaluate, has no one found the answer and is there an answer? Or is the answer... there isn't an answer, better minds have thought longer on this than I could and I'm way over my head. 

The only thing I can figure out is to call different perspective businesses randomly (like a poll). Can I make real judgements from that?

I've been describing a business concept I have and asking if they think it's something they would buy. Unforunately it's going to take me more time to stop being nervous and rushing thru my conversation. Especially since the concept is 50% or more visual and I can't seem to verbalize a picture.

So I keep coming back here, looking for more knowledgable insights than my own.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

W., I think where you need to gain more knowledge are in 2 areas: demographics (which you can get info on at the library , or town hall), and what things cost to make in quantity, as well as what the going rate is for various items, both retail and wholesale.

Also, call the publications you'd want to advertise in, and find out ad prices. You can do all of that fairly easily, and I think you'll feel more confident in some of your ideas.

Do your best to find peers in your area (like breadster)who will be able to tell you who their market is, when the season fluctuates, and what they do at slow times.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Momoreg, I would love to talk to others in my area. I can't get over feeling shy about calling some decorators and or bakeries. I keep thinking they'll see me only as competition and they'll brush me off quickly. Do you have any insights or ideas of how I could approach these people with-out offending or pretending I'm either seeking employement or a prospective customer?


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

this is getting to be quite a juicy thread, isnt it?

i only have a few minutes right now but

1) the wealthy customers do eat pastries as a treat! 
we are down the street from a fancy schmancy health club- and many members come to our shop after their workouts- munching away on the samples we always have out 

2) understand- i do think there is a place for what you are describing- good taste and willingness to pay for it are not just a provenance of the wealthy - 

3) one of the most important concepts i learned in my former life- NOBODY ASPIRES TO MEDIOCRITY

so you continue to do your high end fare but make it available to everyone in some form- $20.00 nicknack but maybe a miniature version for $3.00 - 

our best selling torte is one of our most expensive ones- the small at $20.00 sells very well, but the miniatures at $6.00 fly out of the case

it becomes a very special treat -we box it up really nicely, and at $6.00 its easy for someone to be a hero - 


especially in these times- people may hesitate to buy the second car or computer but will treat themselves and family with a special food treat

ok gotta go


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## compassrose (Jun 1, 2001)

Think it depends what you mean by "wealthy," too. One of the fanciest pastry places in Toronto, Dufflet's (www.dufflet.com) is on Queen West, where all the uber-trendy go to shop... cutting-edge fashion and sleek home decor stores, fancy bath-and-body boutiques, and lots and lots of restaurants. No, the old money doesn't hang there, but the young-ish overpaid professional is all over the place. IMHO, they're the ones with money to burn, AND they're the ones that really want to make a splash when they spend.

And I've never been into Dufflet's and not found it jammed, both with in-store customers and people buying things by the boxload to take home.

Dufflet also sells outside of town; I can buy her cakes and things (swoon) at the local yuppie Italian grocer here in K-W, about an hour away.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I understand what you are saying, Wendy. What I mean by peers is not necessarily people with the same type of product, but people in the industry selling to the same market.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I had many conversations with our (at my last job) Edward Don supplier (although he isn't a food guy he has some insights) and owner the of Justice Foods, Inc. who's one of the bigger wholesale dessert suppliers in the Chicago club scene. Justice doesn't make any items, they are distributors. 

They weren't at all enouraging. They really thought the wholesale market is soooo tight neither thought it would be a wise move. Chris our Don guy just thought I was NUTS! 

Perhaps those aren't the kind of people you were refering to? Sometimes it's so hard to know what the truth is. Our Edward Don guy used to always moan about how sales are down everywhere, his sales are down, he only makes pennies on every order....it's always the good old days when we made money, etc...

E. Justice was always more quite and helpful (a very very nice man). He tried to give me some job leads and advice, but he thought wholesale pastries is way to hard of a way to go for a wanttobe.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I have a friend with a much more active catering biz than I and he buys Sweet Street wholesale bars for less $ then adds fancier local treats when the job needs it....you cannot compete with 15cents a bar. no way no how, who would want to. 

This is a weird comment, but Michael Roman gives alot of courses and has written text books on catering and says most successful guys are mediocre...sad, but think about it....

PR can eat you alive!!! It takes consistant advertising.....there are alot of ways to trade or do promotions that render PR for less $$ out of pocket. Check into your James Beard Group, I went to a dinner at Fancy Food Show put on by the Beard group....that is great PR....our group supliments our out of pocket so I have nominal exspenses with the Picnic I cook for. UMMMM....classes pulled in alot of clients for me, Check out the high end rags and see if the back ads cost the same...our local one has $20 ads that are in the back I've gotten good responses from that....
Neiman has a bridal fair, offer to have a wedding cake or sweet table as a trade in exchange for being apart of the day....
Brochure is imparitive.....they can be costly so watch how randomly they are given out. Portfolio, really works, and I know it and havn't done it for myself.
Take baskets of treats to radio stations and they will talk about them on the air, with your PR release of course.


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## breadster** (Aug 21, 2001)

so another question you need to ask yourself -

can you or do you want to work with other people or solito?

if you want to open a place- there is no way you can do it alone- i take it back- it's very hard to do it alone without some help whether its answering phones, taking care of customers, all the pastry work....

if you rent space from someone, you cut your overhead, answer only to yourself (and clients) take on what you can handle and learn as you grow your business -what works and what doesnt


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I 'think' I learned about profits when I was back catering. We certainly didn't aspire to mediocrity!! No, instead we burned out the other way, literally. Profits come from repetition (that's etched into my brain, finally)! 

I don't aspire to mediocrity now, but I do understanding why their are so many 'average' businesses and I really respect them, where as I didn't years ago. Unforunatly I'm not willing to find the money to compete with the big guys and gain the average customer. I do have a plan that includes pricing teirs to include 2 or 3 price ranges. At some point I realize I'll have to let the 'gods' see who my customer will be, who (if anyone) will buy this product and then build it up, then once I get established go back and broaden my market?... I don't want to be everything to everyone, I will say no to the time wasters.


Along the road I need to figure out if I have the 'stuff' to compete as the 'top dog' cake lady. Unforunately my photos are limited to the work available while on my last job. Where decorating was a luxury not the primary focus. I need to increase my wedding cake portfolio....but that's not a big deal, just time.

I have no intention of spend big dollars on a brocure. I can do a satisfactory job myself (considering I've done it a few times professionally). I'd rather work with-in my computors printing abilities and update my brocure frequently, if not seasonally. (Once upon a time I bought the min. number of borcures for my limited edition print business, they were out dated the day I printed them) I also might be able to help alittle schroomgirl if you ever want to talk about brocures in more detail.

I would only consider renting from someone else. I wouldn't dream of setting up my own place right now. A store front isn't necessary for what I have in mind.

All along I've always wanted a partner. I understand to turn out a really great product my attention would be to divided almost 70/30 between marketing and doing. I want to get my ideas down because I understand (finally) that I'll need to be a sales person more than an artist for a long time. As of yet I haven't met the right person to pair up with....but I dream about it.

I do wonder if theirs another pastry chef/decorator out there who already has something started but needs help, like me. But I don't know how to find that? I think I have more to offer than an employee?


Great ideas Schroomgirl, no doubt your a great pr person!


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

with alittle help from my friends!!!! For the market I have 8 week schedules that have information on what the market is "we sell it, we raise it", what attractions there are and then the chef schedule on the back, this year I'm cutting back to one chef a week and printing musicians on the schedule. But this is printed on 1/2 sheet of card stock/colored of course...to fit on a fridge.

weekly market news....what's growing, what I'm up to, what the farmers are up to....

Amazing Grace Dinner Schedules...again on card stock

T-shirts and caps...organic cotton with the market logo

I have different events to promote shtuff throughout the season.

Heirloom tomato fest...Nicko helped judge that one....8/4

Photo contest....ametuers take pics of the market, win a prize from the photo shop on the street and then the photo is exhibited at a new cooking school with a party reception of course and then the photos are used and potentially auctioned off. That's one of my better ones.

Cookbook authors signing their books and I bring in local chefs to cook from their books.....I like this one a lot....so do the guys.
newspaper photos are then taken at the market....if I knew how to link you I'd give you dates for the Home chefs and Danny Meyer pics.

Radio....I have a few family and friend connections that garner some air time for projects in the works.

Saucecafe is our website, they do a wonderful job, I feed them info and they do the magic.



***Where I have fallen short is newsletters and info on what all I'm doing to the chefs and locals.....I keep verbal contact with several supportive chefs, just show in the kitchen and talk....that way I know the info is recieved. But keeping everyone updated on the systemic changes I working toward is difficult. NOONE does meetings....except when they are soooo ticked off they don't have a proactive agenda.

Now my catering is another animal. I don't have a set menu, pretty stupid. I wanna do individual things for each event. Give me a budget, tell me the theme, venue, guest type and I devise a menu.....works alot of the time....I still need to come upwith a set menu type for a variety of parties. And the portfolio!!!! That is pretty important.

***Now what has really been beneficial to me is being apart of professional organizations....I've been active with a local food group for 5 years...met many movers and shakers in the community that way. I also volunteered to organize mushroom events for a couple of years...jobs have come from that venue.
James Beard Picnic brings in business also....so if you get a sense of what food groups are in your community I'd say join at least one that has networking possibilities for you....cuts out alot of time by being able to pick up the phone and KNOW who you are talking to....rather than cold calls.

The whole point to this is to tell you I spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on PR....coming up with events that the press will write about.


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

WdB- 
one thing - very important -lest i be misunderstood

- one i spoke about "aspire to mediocrity" it wasnt aimed at the chef or baker- rather the consumer- that whether one has limited or unlimited funds they would still like to be able to purchase "the best"- 

and that would still work for you in your 3 tier set up

someone with less to spend could still use you, but perhaps their options and choices are limited- but theyre still getting the best

re brochures- the computer has been a godsend- i agree with you

it was sickening to see how many outdated brochures weve thrown away- cost me $100s of $$$ each printing

now we print up menus as we need them, change them for an item change or introduction print some of our own labels

some might argue that the paper and printer ink and labor costs more in the long run, but not when you are sitting on unused and obsolete 'paper'

granted , my assistant does most of it, and teaches me the easy stuff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

P.S. Suzanne, I couldn't find the article you mentioned on the radio. Did you hear it, was it informative?

On to: Renting space from an existing business. This will be my next bigger challange to educate myself about. 


What are the issues? Refrideration space, freezers, how to store away ingred. ...has anyone looked into the details?


How do you protect yourself? Do you sign a contract between the existing business and yourself? What happens if their equipment breaks down on your time? 


How do you assure the existing business that you'll do no harm to them either? This will be their biggest concern and probably stop most business owners from a 'sub-use' situation. So before I approach a business what issues will I need to cover for their peace of mind?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Momoreg you mentioned Sweet Lisa's is your main competition....I guess I was wondering what your up to? I know your pregnant (and that must influence your professional desires right now), but are you going solo too? Have you sought out any business?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Thanks for asking...

I have been doing cakes for my former employer, and she's got quite a bit lined up for the next 2 weeks as well (mostly croquembouches and marzipan nutcrackers). It has been very rewarding. 

I have a friend who is the exec. chef at a private school near here, and he runs a catering business out of that kitchen. I have been getting work from them also. Last week they hosted a party for faculty and parents, and I donated 3 cakes for 200 guests. The response was very good, and lots of people took my business card. I hope to see a return on that during the next month. The F&B guy there asked me if I'd be interested in doing buche de noel for 800 (a lot of roulade!!) sometime this season, and I said yes, so as you can see, there is a lot going on.

On top of that, I interviewed for a pastry chef position at a very nice restaurant that's due to open in December. The interview went very well, and the chef seemed not to mind that I'm due to have a baby in May. In fact, he called me a few days ago to tell me that he enjoyed meeting me (it was mutual), and plans to get back to me after Thansgiving. I would like to work until my 8th month, but I have no way of knowing whether I'll be able (or willing) to handle restaurant hours with a newborn. I guess that all remains to be seen. It would be an enriching experience, I think. And hopefully, we'll be able to work something out for post-maternity.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

So your keeping your options open.......either way. That's cool that you got things worked out with your former employeer!

Do you mind if I ask you what your doing about insurance? I'm not sure yet what if any differences there are between a cake business and a restaurant (price wise), but it sems like it should be alot less? Just incase you might be interested...I stumbled into a interesting find on the net looking for resources. Pehaps your familar with it already, Modern Baking magazine lead me to RBA (retailer bakery association), www.RBANET.com there's tons and tons of info and sources there! You also can buy insurance thru them. I couldn't find any rough pricing on it, but I plan on looking into it more. Then I discovered Chicago has a bakery association too (although none of our top decorators were members....) but I never thought about these resources before.

All those times when I couldn't find something....I have Modern Baking's "buyers handbook' right on my shelf! It an amazing resource, I can't imagine anything that could be more informative for resources.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

W.deBord-

WOW! Thanks for sending me to this board- it's great. Now that I have seen what specific lines you are talking about, I can give you some specifics.

You live in a large city- you have a good geographical location to work with (yes, you will have traffic to deal with). You will find the clientele you are looking for once you put yourself out there. 

As far as advertising- if you are looking to specialize in wedding cakes and specialty pastries, I don't think that local papers is a good idea. I would find a local bridal magazine that is willing to hand over thier mailing list as part of the deal. I advertise with The Wedding Pages (Cleveland), they hand over their mailing list monthly, I send a postcard to those in the area I am targeting and I get a great response. These are people who you know are already looking for what you offer. The ad and the mailings cost about $1000 year- it pays for itself in one or two wedding cakes. As far as attracting caterers, look for high end catering who will refer people to you, not buy your product. Most caterers do have a low ceiling on desserts. Most around here, even the high end ones will buy from a distributor like Sysco (my husband is a Sysco salesman and gets the inside scoop for me). In my experience if you offer custom work-especially in design- that is what initially will attract them. As far as getting them to recommend you- it is a grassroots campaign- bring them abundant samples, always send a thank you note and a yearly gift (more samples- only bigger)once you hook them.

My other advice that I gave you in your e-mail is personalized service. People with money love attention and that "elite" feeling. It is hard to find good service.

If you are looking for additional ways to supplement the cake and decorating- I know of one decorator on the east coast who has a stand at the local market on Saturdays to sell smaller pastries. We also have several like that at the market I go to- it is a lot of traffic and the yuppies have no problem bringing home a treat for the families.

As far as space- am I correct in remembering that you did not want a retail store front? If you don't then location is less important.

Does that answer your questions more specifically?

Thanks again- this is a great board.


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Welcome Anna W.
From a fellow cake designer.
I always admired your input at another forum.
Yes, this is a great board.
Enjoy!


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Spoons- what is your alias on the other board?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

To advertise I was thinking the right paper to use is one that we recieve free monthly (in the Chciago burbs). I don't know if other cities have this (other towns around Chicago do)? It's called 'Lifestyles' (it might be called something different in each town) and it's not bad looking, it's printed on white stock and it's a bit over sized too, comes in the mail (not on the driveway). 

Anyway it's the place where organizations advertise their events (they get covered for free), like the ladies clubs advertise their house walks and the Jaycee's talk abou their last formal ball. Then local business buy ad space and get a paraghraph or two by their ad to write a story about their business (like a column). It's really the society pages of the area. The ladies get to see their photos handing over donations to different charities. It lists different art and library events or when comunity events take place, etc.... 

Do any of you have recieve these mailers?

I like the idea of buying the mailing list but I have a couple questions? Like won't those names be dated, many of the people could already be married before you do your mailing? For that high of a cost I wonder if a bulk mailing (in the right areas) wouldn't be cheaper? Would you mind sharing aprox. numbers....like on a mailing to 200 people off your targeted purchased list, how many responses do you get on average?

Thanks.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Regarding the mailing list: The way the Wedding Pages works is that the bride signs up for a free magazine. You get a monthly list of the people who signed up that month complete with address and wedding date. I cross out the dates I already have booked and the addresses that are not desireable. I send post cards to the rest. It averages 75-100 that get sent out a month. You can not do bulk mailing unless you have thousands of things to mail and they all have to be sorted by zip code. 

This other paper you are talking about sounds reasonable if it is wealthy people looking to see what the other wealthy people are doing.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Still trying to figure all this out.....I desided to go and see who the "big shots" are in my area. My husband (the good sport) drove with me to visit www.royaleicing.com on his birthday (5 hours driving there and back). I promised him some good samples....but guess what? Her charming little store isn't anything like her charming little web site.

It's in a BAD neighborhood. It's not open to the public like the web site appears. And the windows are all covered from the inside with paper. Their photo at her web site is REALLY WELL DONE for that property. Although it did look like they are in business.

I also looked up the young women from chocolatier magazine (Alica B.) who said she does 900 cakes a year. Her cake business is GONE! I found her in a new location (downtown) with an answering machine as your only contact. The message says their a wholesale bakery.....

So my head keeps asking "whats wrong here?". This is a BIG town! WHERE ARE ALL THE BAKERIES? It's either the most abandoned market and ripe for the picking OR it's a dead end street and I shouldn't linger too long on this thought. Eeks, kind of seems dreadful!

So I got the lastest Chicago brides magazine yesterday. Noticed who is advertising wedding cakes, only 8 or 9 shops. Some appear not to be shops/bakeries, just solo women.

Anyway, I haven't run away yet (I must be crazy). But I need help finding sources.... How do you find out who sponsors those bridal shows (I've heard them advertised) that are usually held in hotels in the earily spring? 
I kind of think there's a network there. How would I find them? And specificly how would I find the Wedding Pages (you mentioned Anna) in my area?

It's time to get specific. Thanks in advance!


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

To advertise in wedding pages- they are also known as the knot. Go to www.theknot.com , click on advertising (very bottom of page), and then on local advertising.

As far as bridal shows- if you can remember anyone who sponsors them you can give them a call. If you do end up advertising you will get plenty of people asking you to be in a show.

A good idea might be to call those other advertised cake people and ask questions as if you were a bride. Then you will know what people are up to and you can compare apples to apples. How long have you been making wedding cakes? What do your prices start at? What flavors do you offer? What type of icing do you use? Is delivery included? Do you do fondant, gumpaste, or any other special technique? Do you offer a free consultation? How much of a deposit do you need to hold a day for me? If I bring in a photo can you duplicate it?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Wendy,
I have sworn off posting, but I just had to jump on and see where you are with you plans.
I just have to tell you, not to over plan your plans. I understand you must check all things out, I do the same, but sometimes you just have to jump.
I like the idea of renting space. Set back a couple of months rent,
expenses and such.
You can develope the best business plan to make pastries for clubs, but if the first 30 people that come to you want wedding cakes, well, your in the wedding cake business. The customer usually dictates which direction you will go.
I personally don't like to advertize. I have never felt it as good as word of mouth. If you have two wedding cakes for 500 people each. your direct advertizing to 1000 people and getting paid.
Clubs are a good source of income, but you must find the ones that are not managed by contracts that bind them to the Sysco's of the world.
Join the chefs association in your area, join the wedding planers in your area, NACE, these people all go to networking meetings and lunches. Probably more business then you can handle.I did not do professional networking when I started and I regret it now.
anyway, your always welcome to email. Just Do It!! 

Just my 2 cents, no partners!!! No personal guarentees!!! no long term leases to start!!! no barter for rent, pay your rent and have the flex. to do what you want!!! 
Hope this year will be prosperous for you,ps Sophie has quit her job and has joined me in the business. Visit if you like.
jeff


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Jeff, Why have you sworn off posting?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, its all me. I've taken to just reading. Sometimes you get so deep into the forest you can't see the trees. I love to talk food and business. This is a great site and the people here are very insightful, they take great care in researching answers.
For me, I'm just plain and simple, I only post from my own experiences and mistakes. I forget that there is so much more.
I really need a site that has a specific thread for baking for dollars.
My wife has just given up her career in advertising to join me in my quest to bring back the small family businesses. Sometimes I feel like I'm in the middle of the lake drowning, franchises popping up all aroud me. Mediocre products and service will be common place if we let it happen. It has taken a long time to build the little places we have, I probably have made all the mistakes and learned all the lessons, I just like to pass that knowledge to those starting out to make their bid, a little less painful.
PS We don't have the best product out there, but it's quality, and you will always have a sympathetic ear and a warm smile when you walk throught the door.
Momo,Wendy and all that I post to, I hope this year will be a healthy and prosperous one.
jsn


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Thank you, Jeff. I wish you the same. You have taught me a lot about business ownership, etc., and I know I speak for a lot of others here as well, so I hope to see you keep posting here, and not just reading!!

Happy New Year


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

This might not help at all, but you might know that I work at a high-end grocery store here in Carmel, Indiana (and yes, there is such a thing). I have had so many people lately, obviously with money to burn, mourn the lack of pastry chefs in the area. They talk about how all they can find are cake decorators, and that those people aren't interested in doing upscale desserts for private purchases.

So, maybe you need to move here? I'd work for you! I would mop, do dishes, whatever you needed!!! :bounce: 

Really, though, is your heart in the cake decorating, or would you rather do more of a pastry/bakery thing? It just seems that once you had a name in cakes you might have so much business it would be difficult to branch out. I obviously know nothing about it, but that's how it seems to me. 

But anyway, in the Indianapolis area, ever since the Rosalyns bakery closed, people roam the streets in search for anything resembling her chocolate eclairs, etc. I hear stories weekly. Also people searching for Pierre's cakes, a roving pastry chef who was employed at my store briefly and found such a following that people would go anywhere to get a cake by him, if they only knew where he was. So here is a (relatively) big city with a huge need.... and we're only 2 and a half hours from Chicago.....

~~Shimmer~~


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Shimmer,
You are right, its funny, the younger generation ask me why my eclairs are in a cold case. " The ones at the grocery store are right out on the self" I tell them because they have real cream in them, they just cock their heads like puppies.
We have people drive from different counties for our cakes, and in Texas you know a block is 7 miles long!!
I promissed myself to attend the Indy this year, is it anywhere near you? I actually have a restored pace car from the '66 Indy, thinking about driving it, would you have a place to park it? 
panini


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Ah, but the question you should be asking is "why did your Rosalyans bakery close?". If it was sucessful they would have sold it to many on lookers and made a nice profit. But if they didn't and closed their doors then the answer is their business was dead. 

Jeez, I could only pray to have a "name in cakes" where it would be difficult to branch out. When you have nothing, anything that actually makes money keeping you doing what you love is a good thing. 

It's not as simple as "there's a need" otherwise there would be bakeries in each strip mall instead of nail salons.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

W. DeBord- at the risk of sounding corny and repeating a previous reply- you ask the questions, you make your decisions wisely, and then you just jump (or, in this case, bake), believing that if you bake it they will come and eat. I am not a business maven by any means but have run three modest ones up to this point, all profitably. I have not yet reached millionaire status but have proved you can get what you need without a boss or a "regular" paycheck. There is just a point were you have to for it.


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

Panini- of course I'm close to the 'Indy'- all roads lead to it, in a way. But close might need definition. I drive over an hour to get to work, so close is relative.

Wendy (I think that is your name, W. DeBord)- Rosalyn's closed because the owners died, passed it to their son (it had been passed down for generations!) and he decided he didn't want to be burdened with the responsibility (he was 23 or something) and closed it despite the uproar it created in the community. He selfishly refused to sell it to anyone else either. So it wasn't that the clientele went down, or that profits were bad. It was an entirely selfishly motivated reason. 

You seem disheartened already. But don't get that way until you've tried! All of these problems you're finding are simply hoops you have to find the best way through. You have so many years of experience and skill, and you're gifted! That means more than bare statistics any day.

~~Shimmer~~


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm abit embarrassed, I do sound rather whiney..and a few other unpleasant adjectives.....

I appreciate the kind words Shimmer (and others). I do need to work on being more positive. My best excuse (if you'll buy it) is I'm a perfectionist (and a quirky artist)....I always want to figure things out (if possible) ahead of time. 

But I am working daily toward opening my own wedding cake business. Hense forthe this thread...and a couple others.



P.S. Side note....Panini, while exploring other bakeries I bought a couple eclairs at my favorite cannoli shop. Oh my, I never knew you could make choux paste tough? It was like shoe leather, wierd! Then they filled it with Instant PUDDING. I was shocked.........at a bakery!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

back more on topic...I need help finding a site...I was wondering if anyone can guide me thru computorland? I spent over an hour yesterday just trying to find them.

There's a bakery I've been trying to check out. It's called Sweet ThAng, located in Chicago. I've been there personally...their work looks nice (it's definately high-end priced, I was quoted at 5 to 15 dollars a serving), they have some very creative wedding cakes on display. But comunicating with them is difficult, everyone has a thick accent and their purposely vague quoting wedding cake prices.

Anyway, I'd love to look at more of their work to get a better feel for what their doing (High-end, which is what I want to do). They told me their web address but I can't find it anywhere!

It's: www.sweethang.com and then they said if that I've tried works. Is there anyone who can help me find them, PLEASE? Please, please..........


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The other site that popped up on Google was www.sthang.com. It did not work either.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Wendy, I have found that there are those bakers/decorators who will share info and those that hoard. For those that hoard: Do you have anyone you know of in thier mid 20's to 30's who could go in and pose as a bride? Take in a couple of martha pics or something and get quotes? See what type of policies they have, etc? They already know who you are so you couldn't go in as a bride but you may want to consider it in the future.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna, Anna, Anna, I can't believe that you would impersonate a bride to be!!!!!
Actually, when we first started many years ago, my wife and I could get away with that. Now that we are old hags in our 40's, we can't even get away with the second marriage thing.
We are one of the bigger players here in town and we have found that most will share information, those that don't usually won't be competition. In fact we network to the point of referring
back and forth. Networking is the key . If you have a quality product you will find others of similar quality and help each other.
There is always enough wedding business to go around. The loners will never grow. We have found that customers really, really, like a good referal and will usually come back to visit. We only work within a 12 sq. mile radius and our referal bakeries loves us. In fact right now one is on 2 week vacation and we had booked all of their business.
That being said, you can best believe that I know exactly what is being done at ALL my competitors.
pan


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

I am in total agreement on the networking thing and although I have tried with other decorators in my area only one was willing to share knowledge. The rest had to be gathered ingognito. Now, these places aren't out of business yet, but have proved not to be competition. There are not that many people in this town (Cleveland) who are willing to do custom work- not even some of the big shots so I have carved my own little niche- I do all the stuff that nobody else wants to bother with, which suits me just fine because I never wanted to do production work in the first place. I network whenever I can (or get my secret weapon husband to) but occasionally you have to use stealth technology !


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna, Spoons, have great points about the florist, photo, and the custom cakes. We actually design each cake with the bride. Its a bit more labor intensive but you actually get to know your clients. 
Question, do you guys get thank you notes and thing like that? I can't take credit, for my wife does all the tastings and consultations, but we actually get to know these couples and after years its really nice to do their anniversary cakes, baby shower, baptism cakes and kid b'day cakes. We also have our couples serve the whole cake and we make them an anniversary cake the first year in trade for some pictures of their cake. This works really well for our portfolio. The pictures we take are usually naked before the florist. Buy the way, we don't touch fresh flowers nor do we refer florist. Another whole thread!
Also, you should not limit yourself to personal networking. There are great sources of professional networking. We attend networking lunches, these include party planners, catering people from hotels, caterers etc. Look into NACE, RBA, places like that in your ares.
pan


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

I do get thank you notes and the best customers always come back. I do all the consultations and tastings but hubby is in the food business, and being a salesman, he is really good at selling me!In the north here, I have noticed that the saving of the first tier is not as big a deal as it is down south, but when requested, I prefer to do as you do and give it to them on their anniversary. 

I have never checked into these networking lunches but it sounds like a good idea. 

A question for you, panini, how do you approach a caterer or hall for the first time? I have had mixed results with this and wonder what the rest of the world does. Have a rather prestigious one coming up this month and want to be prepared. Also interested in how you and your wife run your business as hubby and I have been throwing the idea around. Do you have a large shop? Who does what? Etc.- if you have the time.

Ditto on the flower thing.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Panini
great ideas! i have been thinking about a portfolio and will now contact past customers for a picture of their cake, saving me big $$$$. 
Thank you for your wisdom!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna,
Probably the most akward part of the business is the cold call. I will usually do homework on the property. The amount of weddings or business they do, have my wife ask questions of a perspective bride having her reception there. Oh yea, ask my Sysco salesman if he knows anything about them. Next I contact the event or wedding planner and see if I could drop by some information and samples. I promiss not to take any of their time, the info will be self explainatory. I usually take samples of our 4 top sellers and a cover letter stating our mission statement, bio, items, liability insurance, client base, etc. I never talk business at this time, I always state in the cover letter that we are a family business and will be very flexible in how we structure an agreement that will be beneficial to both parties.
Most people you talk to will not be able to talk $$ anyway. I follow up in three days. If it has gone a week to ten days with no responce I do the same proceedure with the general manager or owner. I get a bite from step one about 30% of the time and from step 2 20% of the time. I change the cover letter of step 2 to excuse the non responce from step one as not to step on toes, using, I'm sure they were to busy to respond. Rejection is part of the game. SORRY for being long winded.
2nd ?.
My wife has been in advertising all of her career and has just left to join me full time at the bakery. It was just to much for her to be doing both. She has gone from director of international advertising for a fortune 50 to being my boss. ha ha.She would have left sooner but for benefits, she and I are both cancer survivors. We finally got tired of waiting and said the heck with it. Our cobra now exceeds our mortgage and tuition payment together!!Can you believe that?
Anyway, I started doing cakes 7-8 years ago out of a rented kitchen. I did not take salary and elected to buy the place. I turned that location into a production kitchen. Finding the need to have a more stable income I ventured into retail. We opened one small shop in a very upscale area, and we produce from the first location for that. We now have a full crew at the production and my wife and I run the retail with some help. 50% of our business is retail and the rest is wholesale. I make myself available to you for questions if your thinking of doing something like this. There is quite a bit of hidden cost involved to do it legal and right.
Jeff
BTW Its hard,tiring,stressful etc. but we love it. especially closing at 3pm to pick up our son, a little homework and some great family time.


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