# French bread a bit too heavy



## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

My problem concerns making French bread at home. No matter how much I read about French bread or how many recipes I try my bread is always too heavy.  I must have tried dozens of different recipes. The recipe I am currently working is:
3 1/2 C. bread flour
! 1/4 C warm water (105 F)
1 3/4 tsp salt
1 tsp sugar
2 tsp instant yeast
I combine, sugar, water and yeast in the bowl of a stand mixer. Add 2 c. flour and mix for 3 min. Cover and let stand 10 min. Add enough flour so that the dough combines and cleans the side of the bowl. Add the salt and knead on medium for about 5 min. Dough is now slapping the side of the bowl. Turn out on a counter lightly dusted with flour. Cover and rest 10 min. Knead by hand until dough is silky smooth and developes small blisters. Lightly oil a bowl and put dough into bowl turning over to coat. Cover and rise until double. When doudled the dough now has many blisters the size of walnuts. Punch down, cover and let rest 20 min. Using a sharp knife cut dough in half. Pull edges of dough down and around to the bottom. Cover and rest 10 min. Gently shape into oblongs. Cover and rest. Using hands begin to roll out into longer and longer loaves. Place loaves in a French bread pan cover until doubled. Meanwhile preheat oven to 425  F. Put heavy fry pan on bottom of oven. When loaves are doubled slash with a sharp razor. Pour one cup of boiling water into fry pan. Bake at 425 F for 10 min. reduce heat to 375 and bake for about 20-25 min more or until a golden brown.
 Internal temp of loaves is now 205 F. Remove to a wire rack and cool for I hr until eating.  
No matter what I do  I end up with loaves that are too heavy and while they look right and taste good they are no at all the loaves that I remember from New Orleans with a thin brittle crust and a soft interior filled with large holes. What in the world am I doing wrong? Please help.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

your recipe seems ok-I use grams but did a rough conversion and it seems all right.

I have made baguettes for many years and I think the problem lies with your method.

Base temperature is important i.e. - temp of room + temp flour + temp water = 56 celcius. If you have a thermometer, take the temperature of the room and the flour, add these together and take away from 56 (celcius). The answer you get will be the temperature that your water should be at.

try this method:
  
  with a dough hook, mix all ingredients in a mixer for 5 minutes on low speed (you can hold back about 50g of water-if you think you will need it, add it)

  after 5 minutes, increase to 2nd speed/ medium speed for an additional 7 minutes.
   
remove dough from bowl and place on floured lightly surface, dust top of dough with flour and cover lighlty with plastic sheet.
 
after 45 minutes or so. weigh and cut your dough.  

leave rest 15 minutes before  shaping
  
shape and leave in tray/tapis, lighlty cover with flour, cover with plastic sheet and leave to rise 
  
Have pan of water in the oven in advance so that when you place your bread  inside, it is already steaming.  The steam helps develop a beautiful crust.
 
slash bread just before putting in oven. (your oven temps seem ok) 

for dough of 350g,  20 to 25 minutes  should be enough time.  Your bread should 'sing' when you take it out of the oven. (you will hear a crackle noise)
  
good luck


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

More water is needed, around 1/2C for 3 1/2C flour.


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Thank you for the reply. I tried lowering  the water temp and it did yield a better taste but the loaves are still too heavy. I'm beginning to think that the problem is in my handling  of the dough after it has risen the first time. When punching down do I want to pop all of the big bubbles? They sure are hard to work with when forming into loaves. Some recipes say to NOT pop the big bubbles. Some say thats ok.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

But did you try changing your method?

There is a lot of starting and stopping involved in your method and it could be contributing to the problem.

when you are shaping the dough, you flatten the dough with the heel or your hand- flattening out any bubbles, this, among other things, gives the bread its uniform shape, you don't want big blisters deforming the appearance of your bread.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Peter,

By and large your first post reads like "How to Bake Bread the Right Way," and I've been scratching my head ever since you put it up.

Based on your recipe, it seems to me that your dough is properly hydrated -- if a bit on the high side -- for a baguette.

When using a machine as a mixer, its power can put together a dough that wouldn't come together easily by hand. It cuts you off from your first two metrics -- "touch" and time. That said, obviously you can use a machine -- but you want to have a pretty good idea of where you're going.

Regular artisanal loaf French bread is usually hydrated to around 65%, while baguettes are made slacker, usually in the 70 - 75% range. The way to get a rough calculus is to assume each cup of flour weighs 4.5 oz and each ounce of water weighs (you'll never guess) an ounce. The weight of flour is defined as 100%, and the weight of the other ingredients are calculated comparatively.

3-1/2 cups of flour = 13.5 ounces. 1-1/4 cups water =10 oz. 10 / 13.5 = 74%.

It's possible that with this recipe in particular the amount of hydration may be holding you back, but since you say that you've tried a bunch of recipes and always have the density problem it doesn't seem likely that's number one on hit parade.

Also, in your description of kneading you haven't described sticking as a problem -- so I think you've got a handle on working a fairly slack dough.

Also, props to Cakeface who is no doubt twice the baker I am, but as long as you're gettng appropriate volume of rise within a reasonable time your proofing temperatures or the little stops and starts in your technique probably aren't at issue. Commercial baking is a different proposition which demands a lot of loaf to loaf consistency throughout the process. But home baking is more about consistent excellence. It doesn't matter if one batch took longer or tastes slightly different, as long as they're good.

_Okay. So much for what's (probably) not going on._

You brought up handling in general and your punch down technique in particular. That's the first thing with which to muck about.

What you want to do with deflation -- whether at punch down or formatin -- is to collapse all the bubbles, and expel all of the carbon dioxide. Just as important is what you don't want to do, and that's crush the bubbles. You want as many as possible so that when the dough is baked into bread, they'll swell as the hot air expands, creating an open texture.

The trend is to deflate using a technique called "French fold," (a variation of "letter folding") between proofs.

After the rise(s) remove your dough from the bowl, hold it by an edge a few inches over the board, and let the dough's weight stretch it. Shuffle your hands along the edge so the dough is stretched evenly. Lay it on the board and stretch it into a square.

Next, fold it like a letter as follows: Fold one side over at the 1/3 point, so 2/3 of the dough is covered. Fold the remaining 1/3 over. Then turn the long narrow rectangle of dough 90* (this is the French part), and do the same thing. That is, 1/3 over to cover the middle 1/3, then the remaining 1/3 over that. You end up with a (roughly) cube shape hunk of dough. Then, back in the bowl and proof.

Notice the feel of weight to the dough as you work it. If you fold properly, the dough will continue to feel light and airy as you work it. If it starts to feel heavy, that's a sign that you may be working it too much.

You've described the "pull down" technique as your first step in formation. It may not be the only good way to go about it, but it's a good way and my way too. Again, you want to be careful that you don't crush the dough. And again, you want to retain a "light" feeling as you handle the dough.

With pull down you want to get a lot of "surface tension" on the skin of the dough. That's what helps the loaf hold its shape as it bakes and rise up rather than flatten out. If you're not getting a tight skin, that's part of your problem. Learning to get a tight skin is one of the hardest things for most people to learn.

Your formation technique -- pat into oblongs -- is very gentle. There are more efficient ways to do it, but as long as you maintain the tight skin throughout formation you're jake. If the skin of your loaves if flaccid, that's at least part of your problem.

After your loaves are formed you don't want to proof to a full doubling. You want to go about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way in order to encourage "oven spring."

Sorry to be so prolix but it's a lot of ground to cover, Lots to think about. Let me know if any of this resonates.

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Allow the dough to rise for about an hour.  Then, DON'T PUNCH DOWN AND DESTROY BUBBLES.  Nope, just do what's called a french fold followed by resting period of about 30-40 minutes at room temp.  Repeat the combined f.f. and rest period two or three more times before final proofing.


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Wow! Thanks for all the great tips. I can't wait to try all the new ideas. Cakeface, your discussion of "base temps" has got me thinking in a whole new direction. Is this a new concept? In the literally dozens of baking books I've read  no author has mentioned "base temps". In my first try, I obtained a noticibly better taste. Loaves still a bit too heavy though. In order to fit within your max total temp  of 56 C.I chill the flour in the ref as the room temp is 27 C (tropical island climate).  Because of the great tips, I feel that I am now on the right track again. What a wonderful journey (though at times frustrating) in my quest for the perfect french bread.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

27C  ! - My God, its like being in a proofing cabinet!  

Base temperature is not a new concept, it is really important, especially in commercial kitchens where, as BDL said, consistency is of the upmost importance.

As you have seen, your room temperature is high, so base temperature would be an important factor when making bread in those conditions.

There are alot of baking books out there but few will mention base temperatures.  In my opinion most of these books are geared towards instant results-the methods and recipes are over simplified and rushed.  And I must admit, in my previous answer to you-I over simplified matters by giving you standard proof times, but these too depend on temperature. (but the above times should be ok for your conditions-give or take)  

But so much of bread making comes from experience - the look and feel of the dough-it can be difficult to describe in words-or even pictures, so it can be tempting to give a simplified method.

I was wondering if your flour is contributing to the heavy results.  I was showing a friend in Spain how to make bread- he had already decanted the flour into a drum, but he assured me i was strong flour- I don't know if i truly was but the results were as you describe-good but with a heavy texture-totally different from how it should have been. Maybe play aound with other strong flours on the market- (in commercial kitchens we use T65  or T55- this is a French classification)

(By the way-just to make things more complicated-base temperatures are different for different breads)


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## gerdosh (Feb 4, 2010)

This is a great help, particularly cakeface's description; I had similar problems with French breads and next time I am going to follow your method to the dot. My French breads are very good but not French breads: not really heavy but not light and chewy enough.
George (Author of What Recipes Don't Tell You)


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## gerdosh (Feb 4, 2010)

56 deg C seems awfully warm. Please reconfirm this number, Cakeface.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

hi Gerdosh.  

56 seems high because the it is the addition of the three temperatures-this does not mean that when you put your ingredients together that the finall dough temperature will be 56C-it is just a means of working out the ideal water temperature.  Different doughs have different base temperature- rye for example is 65C.

After mixing, you will probably find that your dough temperature is in the range of between  25-27C (this is called dough temperature) .

very glad you found my previous post useful, if you have any other questions, let me know


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Hello boar-dlaze, cakeface and kokopuffs, 

Well, a lot to digest and discuss. First, yes the kitchen is quite warm as I now live in the Philippines. I try to do my baking after sunset but many nights are still sweltering. Anyway, I tried using the French fold and I Iike it. I can stretch the dough out to at least a 20"  circle and get a giant "window-pane. Does that sound right? I am, however, unclear on how long the folded "cube" must rest/proof or how many times I must do the French fold process. If I did this complete process 3 or 4  times, that woud add several hours to my bread-making. Can that be right? Also, I tried this french fold last night but my loaf forming tehnique must be wrong because I ended up with a poorly formed loaf that was full of huge blisters. The finished loaf tasted delicious but , my God, it was an ugly looking loaf. HaHaHa. BOAR-D-LAZE, could you please expand on what you mentioned as "more efficient ways to form a loaf".  Last night I thought that eveything was going fine up through the french fold, the cutting in half, and the pull down technique with a very taut skin. BUT, when I went to form the loaves that's when the trouble began. BUBBLES GALORE ( sounds like a Las Vegas dancer). Not knowing what to do with all those bubbles I ended up being rather rough with the dough and finally got two raggedly looking loaves into the french bread pan. As I said tasted great but looked ugly.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Peter, visit a website called The Fresh Loaf. The ff involved stretching the dough slightly into a rectangle and folding it in thirds both ways. In my eyes my 6C loaf requires 1 hour of work spread out over 5 or 6 hours total. And that amount of time includes 3 or 4 french folds with appropriate rest periods in between. One shouldn't rush bread making and baking.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi Bubbles Galore,

I think you are still using your original method - this is a more complicated method than the 'direct method' that I gave in my post. Your method is more usually seen when using a 'natural starter' - rather than all yeast. It can require several folds / knock backs / punching down instead of one or none.

folding gives the bread 'strength' and rejuvenates the dough, (you don't want to over do it either-it can make the dough hard to handle)

*B*ecause with this method very little yeast is required, you may have too much yeast in your recipe and this may be producing the excess 'bubbles'. But as you seem to be almost on your way to conquering this method, I would suggest first trying the following before adjusting the recipe:

Giving the bread one fold-making sure you left no air pockets. The standard is to now leave the dough for half the time of the first rising (since your room temp is so hot- you will have to gauge this yourself).

Now you can cut and scale the bread. Gently give a fold to each of the individual pieces of bread. Cover with plastic sheet.

Leave the bread rest 15-20 minutes.

Now you can shape your dough (try shape one first-if it is hard to shape, leave the dough another 10 minutes or so)

This technique should help minimise the problem with the bubbles. Each method produces a different look and feel. The very nature of this method is to produce a more flavoursome, rustic loaf.

These are just suggestions, and if they don't work -we can try adapt them.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm afraid you're getting a lot of information that's coming so fast it's confusing and somewhat contradictory. You may want to listen to one of us at a time.

For an overview of a more efficient way to form a loaf, read this. The piece is written about batards rather than baguettes going into a French pan, but the process is similar.

Remember, you want a very tight skin (lots of "surface tension") on the formed loaf. In your case, you want to form your loaves in one step rather than breaking it into two with a 10 minute rest in between. (A good thing my friend, as your technique is already broken up into too many steps with too many rests.) If you end up with a seam, just pinch it shut the best you can -- eventually it will end up on the bottom.

With his multiple French folds, kokopuffs is referring to a technique called "autolysis." As a practical matter, "autolysis" means allowing the dough to resting the dough after mixing so it hydrates evenly. Autolysis comes before kneading, and if done in multiples as kokopuffs suggests, is usually used to make very slack doughs feel stiffer and easier to knead. In your case, since you don't seem to have any trouble kneading, the 10 minute rest between mixing and kneading may be all the autolysis you need.

Sometimes multiple autolysis periods with French folds in between is done instead of kneading. I believe that's kokopuff's preferred technique, but it is not one I favor because kneading adds to "chew."

Just to be clear, I recommended the French fold instead of a "punch down" after the first proof (following kneading), as a way of preserving the bubble structure in the dough so it eventually bakes light and airy.

Unlike cakeface, I recommend three rises. The first comes after kneading, followed by a second before formation, and a third after formation. Ideally, the third should be "retarded" -- that is done over night in the refrigerator -- but that's not absolutely necessary. The multiple rise technique develops better flavor, a retarded third rise does even more.

You've mentioned "blisters." If you mean you're getting a substantial hole directly under the top crust -- it's a condition commonly called "flying crust." It comes about as a result of the top of the loaf rising differently than the bottom during proofing -- which is then exacerbated during the bake. The best solution for baguettes is to set the loaf upside down for most of the proofing period between formation and baking, then turn it over, and let it proof for 10 minutes more so before it goes into the oven. If you do have a seam as a result of formation, that means starting the proof seam side up, and finishing seam down.

BDL


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Hi Boar-d-laze,
You sure are right! I'm getting a bit confused by all the new concepts. (New to me) An update: 1st, I recalibrated my hydration %. I now use  3.25 C. flour and 1.25 C. water (3.35 C x 4.5 oz/ C = 14.62 oz; 1.25 C water = 10 oz )  10/14.62 = 68% hydration, which, as you pointed out falls between a french bread at 65% and a baguette at 72%.  2nd, baking a batch every day is giving me  a greater "feel" for all of the steps. I believe that my mixing and kneading technique is spot on now. My rational for saying this is that after I finish off by hand kneading the dough is as soft and smooth a a babys skin, it passes the window-pane test and when I poke two floured fingers into the dough the dough pops right back ( actually about 90% back) and after the 1st proof I have HUGE blisters on the dough and if I had not developed glutten properly I would not have blisters. Does that ring true to you?  3rd. when I spoke about having a problem with blisters I was refering to the "FORMING STAGE"  This, I truly believe, is my great failing and the cause of my too heavy bread. I just completed a new batch an hour ago and everything was going fine. I had developed a nice tight skin in the rounding stage and I covered them with plastic wrap for 20 min. As soon as I touched the rounded dough I could see many blisters and feel them deep within the dough. When I tried to form the dough the blisters just moved around inside. The dough is extremely elastic and quite resistant to forming. This forced me to be more agressive with the dough and oops there goes my nice tight skin. Also, the light airyness/puffiness is now gone. Some say that it is ok to press down with a fist and deflate all those bubbles/blisters but I have never had any luck with that method. In spite of my failures I remain confident that I am very close to my goal.  Thank you for all your detailed advice.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

boar_d_laze said:


> ...With his multiple French folds, kokopuffs is referring to a technique called "autolysis." As a practical matter, "autolysis" means allowing the dough to resting the dough after mixing so it hydrates evenly. Autolysis comes before kneading, and if done in multiples as kokopuffs suggests, is usually used to make very slack doughs feel stiffer and easier to knead. In your case, since you don't seem to have any trouble kneading, the 10 minute rest between mixing and kneading may be all the autolysis you need.
> ...BDL


My goal for the 3 ff's is to 'tighten' the dough (think: surface tension) and not to achieve some sort of 'chewy' quality. On the contrary I'd like getting a loaf more tender than what I'm currently achieving.

Here's my procedure:
Make poolish
After 6-9 hours, mix in remaining ingredients
Optional Autolyse for 30-40 minutes
Knead half a dozen times by lifting and flipping/rolling the dough over and onto itself
Initial rise: allow to rise for 1 hour
FF and rest period for 30-40 minutes
Repeat step 6 two or three more times
Roll into a boule (using the forearms) and allow to rest 10-20 minutes
Final shape and final rise (for 20-50 minutes)
Oven bake


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

In the past, I have tried: sponges, biga's, and poolishes. While thay absolutely contribute to final flavor, they do not seem to have any impact on the lightness of a loaf (at least in my experiance).  For that reason and to avoid unnecessary complications, in what is already a very complicated topic, I have avoided mentioning any of the pre-ferments. Speaking of final flavor, retarding the dough, at any point, but especially during the 1st rise, yields a dramatically more flavorful loaf.
By way of clarification, when I said that my French bread is a bit too heavy I did NOT mean that it is like a brick. Far from it. Most people find my loaves to be quite enjoyable. But I am going for a unique loaf; a special loaf. I want a loaf that is light and airy, filled with air pockets of different sizes ,has an open crumb, has an ever so slight moist interior, and has a crust which is thin and brittle that "shatters" when cut or bitten into. Those of you who have traveled to New Orleans and had their French bread or eaten a guine New Orleans Po' Boy sandwich know exactly what I am going for. One last note on flavor. I also want that "honest" bread with BIG FLAVOR that used to be common 40 or 50 years ago. But for now I am concentrating on lightness. Once that is obtained I believe that I know how to get super flavor.
One final note for today. Having read dozens of cookbooks on baking I have noticed a wide variation in baking temps and time, from a high of 525 degrees F. to a low of 375 F. James Beard actually called for placing the loaves into a COLD OVEN and then turning the heat on. Times vary from 16 min to as long as 50 minutes. Naturally, the longer time are for the lower temps. But it sure seems strange that there is such a varience and still be called French bread.
I will pick up this thread again when I come back from vacation. Thanks all.
.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

A lighter loaf is easily achieved using all purpose flour that's lower in protein than 'bread' flour.  AP = 11.7% protein give or take whereas Bread Flour = 12.5% - 12.7% protein.


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## gerdosh (Feb 4, 2010)

Thanks! That clarifies it. At 56 degrees dough temp the yeast cells are ready perish.
George


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

gerdosh said:


> Thanks! That clarifies it. At 56 degrees dough temp the yeast cells are ready perish.
> George


My dought rises at room temperature that ranges from 65 to 72F.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Koko,

This is getting confusing. you wrote: 


> My dought rises at room temperature that ranges from 65 to 72F.


The 56 thing wasn't 56F but 56C, and not room temp but water temp (to facilitate the rise).

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Let me clarify.  Water temp = 101-105F with ambient temperatures as previously posted.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

kokopuffs said:


> My dought rises at room temperature that ranges from 65 to 72F.





boar_d_laze said:


> Koko,
> 
> This is getting confusing. you wrote:
> 
> ...





kokopuffs said:


> Let me clarify. Water temp = 101-105F with ambient temperatures as previously posted.


This is getting confusing! What I was suggesting was, to find out the ideal temperature of the water using 'base temperature' calculations. For this dough, I suggested a base tempterature of 56 Celcius/Centigrade.

that is-

 room temperature + flour temperature + water temperature =56
if for examle room temperature is 24 and flour temperature is 20

then 24 + 20 + water temperature = 56
then water temperature = 56 - 44
then water temperature = 12 Celcius

As I was saying, this does not mean the actual dough is at this temperature-it is just a means of calculating the ideal temperature of the water so that any temperature variations can be controlled to ensure consistancy. After mixing the actual dough temperature for this type of bread would usually be at about 25 Celcius.


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Hello all,
Since I started this thread I have baked a new batch each and every day. I have tried everyone's suggestions and each has something to offer. My loaves are progessively getting better with each try. My goodness, there sure are a lot of methods and differences of opioion. Because I believe that my biggest area of difficulity begins just after the 1 st rise I wanted to ask for clarification, advice etc. Here is what James Peterson says in his book "Baking"  P. 293 
           "Dough for fine crumb breads should be thoroughly punched down, BUT dough for rustic breads with large hole should be handled 
            very gently --- with no real pressing at all --- to keep from deflating the holes."  
AFTER the 1st rise he moves directly to cutting, scaling and rounding WITH NO PUNCH DOWN AT ALL. He then benches the rounded dough for 20 min. Ok, fine. I can understand that. BUT here is where I get confused.  Listen to what he says on page 296;
          "PRESS ALONG THE DOUGH WITH YOUR FIST TO STRETCH IT. FOLD THE DOUGH ALONG ONE SIDE INTO THE 
          CENTER AND PRESS IT INTO THE LOAF WITH YOUR FINGERS. REPEAT ALONG THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DOUGH.
          CONTINUE PRESSING AND FOLDING UNTIL THE BAGUETTE IS THE LENGTH YOU WANT IT. ROLL THE BAGUETTE TO
          EVEN IT'.
There are beautiful color plates to demonstrate this technique. You see my confusion? He goes from "no real pressing at all"  then he says, "Press along the dough with your fist". The photos clearly show him pressing the dough and flattening it. ??????  HELP!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I think that it's a version of the french fold followed by rolling the dough into a baguette sized loaf.


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

PeterCook said:


> AFTER the 1st rise he moves directly to cutting, scaling and rounding WITH NO PUNCH DOWN AT ALL. He then benches the rounded dough for 20 min. Ok, fine. I can understand that. BUT here is where I get confused. Listen to what he says on page 296;
> "PRESS ALONG THE DOUGH WITH YOUR FIST TO STRETCH IT. FOLD THE DOUGH ALONG ONE SIDE INTO THE
> CENTER AND PRESS IT INTO THE LOAF WITH YOUR FINGERS. REPEAT ALONG THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DOUGH.
> CONTINUE PRESSING AND FOLDING UNTIL THE BAGUETTE IS THE LENGTH YOU WANT IT. ROLL THE BAGUETTE TO
> ...


Peter, the method you describe is essentially the same method I described in post 2 of this thread- personally I think it works best for your type of recipe.

what he is describing in the quote above is the shaping of the dough in to a baguette form-these steps should not be confused with the folding/punch down/knockback.

Shaping is essential to get a smooth, even baguette- and a little bit of pressure is required

if you would like I can take and then upload some pictures of the steps involved in shaping a baguette,and send them to you - if you think it would help

edit-had to edit this-terrible spelling and grammar.


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Hello Cakeface, Yes, I would love to see photos of the process especially as I am by nature a visual person. 
2 questions: During the FINAL shaping of the French bread what do I do with the large blisters (air pockets/bubbles) which are often the size of lg grapes? Just smash them? Poke them? Yes I have reduced the yeast to a tiny fraction of what it was.
2nd question. Kokopuffs said that I could obtain a lighter losf by using A.P. flour. Please correct me I you think I'm wrong but I thought that the whole purpose of all that kneading and rising was to develop gluten---- especially in rustic breads. Since A.P. flour has less gluten than hard wheat, bread flour then the finished loaf should have more and stronger air pockets and hence rise higher and be lighter. Yes?


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

right so, took some pictures today going to  try send them to you now, let me know if you get them


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Peter, I sent you a pm.  Please let me know.


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## petercook (Apr 4, 2010)

Hi Kokopuffs and Cakeface, 
I had a wonderful time in Hong Kong and now I'm looking forward to picking up where we left off. I did not recieve the PM or the photos. Maybe I don't know how to find them. I looked on my e-mail but nothing there. Hmmm?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Peter, I re-sent the PM thru Cheftalk and so you should see it at this website/your profile.   Lemme' know, please.

-T


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

My browser is Internet Explorer Version 6 and I think that there's some incompatibility between it and the new formatting used at the various forums.  Your not receiving my emails relate to that incompatibility.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

deleted deleted deleted


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## ohoo (Jul 23, 2010)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif Hellow, Peter Cookie, I meant, Peter Cook, instead of asking questions see these Videos on how to knead and make French Bread.

http://www.5min.com/Video/Baking-the-French-Bread-145439316

;http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-make-french-bread#Step_3:_Knead_the_Dough

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-knead-bread-dough-by-hand-when-baking-385714/






Hey, here are better methods: no knead French Bread?:

http://americanfood.about.com/od/pizzaandbreads/r/No_Knead_Bread.htm

http://www.herbcompanion.com/cooking/herbal-butters-oils-crusty-no-knead-french-bread.aspx

http://www.cookadvice.com/recipes/noknead_french_bread-19877-recipe.htm

http://www.nokneadbread.org/2009/12...tering-the-art-of-french-cooking-success.html

good luckey,


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ohoo,

I'm not sure if you followed the entire thread -- and even if you did, you should be aware that there were a lot of PMs going back and forth that aren't reflected here.

Peter Cook, the OP, was interested in producing a very specific type of bread with a very specific type of crust -- all the while fighting Filipino weather conditions. By the time this thread ran its course you'd have to term him an advanced baker -- at least as far as _pain ordinaire_. Your suggested video recipes and techniques don't apply to what he was trying to do.

On the other hand, you've got a pretty interesting collection of resources and may want to start your own thread to better share them with those whom might best benefit. I suspect they're pretty much lost in this thread.

Welcome and good luck,

BDL


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## live2bake (Jan 13, 2013)

Thank you so much for the detailed steps! I have been on mission to create nice light crusty French bread. I am considered a pretty good cook and it has driven me nuts constantly having it come very flavorful but "heavy" I realize now I have been punching my bread to much and handling it to long. Looking forward to giving your process a try. fingers crossed.


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## frereandre (Nov 30, 2011)

Use a mix of Bread flour and All Purpose.  1 for 4.  Bread flour is too strong. Also do not "punch down". After the autolyze rest, knead lightly and let rest for 20 min. Then fold, ie: take one side and stretch and bring to middle, repeat 6-8 times going around the dough. Reshape in nice smooth ball, let rest for 20 min more and repeat folding, and one more time. then let rise 1h and divide, let rest 10 min, then shape.  And the flavour is improved if you use a pâte fermenté method.

Do the grignes before baking, (scaring).

For baking preheat to 450ºF, place the breads in, pour 1/2 glass of water at the bottom and close oven for 3 min.  Then convection 400ºF and open oven door to let steam out. Should be for 17-20 minutes more, when the breads "feel" light for their sizes.


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## frereandre (Nov 30, 2011)

And you may consider using 1tsp malted barley sirup in the warm water with the sugar and yeast.


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## shannon skinner (Feb 21, 2015)

I read through the entire thing and I am totally now completely and utterly confused....I haven't tried the original recipe on post #1 but it sounds similar to the one I used. It was a bit heavy as the recipe I used was way too much flour. As far as all the knead three times or two, temperature of flour and folding of dough. I mean really. Every place has a different temperature and pressure. For example, a recipe that works for someone in Australia may not work for someone in Mexico etc. As far as the 'professional' addition to it is concerned regarding especially the commercial end of it. Most people especially here aren't looking for that. I taught myself how to make bread and now I make many kinds. The videos that were mentioned in there are the best choice hands down. I never use temp gauges for the flour and I know what to do with my recipes when it's summer as opposed to winter.

For the steam, just have a larger pan in the front on the bottom and the bread further back and when you put the bread in, put a big chunk of ice in there, Whammo!! Instant steam ;-)  .  I find a wee bit more salt to a recipe helps with the nice crack and crunch. My mother used to have a brick in the oven and spray it with salt water. She wrecked her oven doing that unfortunately but sure made an amazing loaf of french bread. Now I just do an Italian style that has a bit of a crunch to it as I really gave up on a baguette, I finally realised that they're mostly tasteless and I just used a bit more water in a country loaf recipe and halved the recipe  . Give that a shot. Don't worry about temp unless you're really into that, just be aware of the time of year, humidity etc. If it's really hot out, put a little more water, if your dough is a little tough to knead let it rest more, or as in my case if too many people have had a shower and not turned the fan on and it's moist, use a little  more flour when dusting...


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