# Shun v wusthof v others



## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

little background about myself so you can get a full understanding of what usage my knives would get. im 26 and looking into getting a set of GOOD knives that can last me forever. (i would prefer a full set of knives so i have the uniformity in the knife block) and i would prefer to not go over $500 initial investment and be able to slowly add to the set as i go

I LOVE to cook, was wanting to go into culinary school. however i had an injury that prevented me form being able to stand for long periods of time so i was forced to change to computers but i have never lost my love of cooking and frequently cook for other people such as my mom and her new boyfriend.

I currently use a Victorinox 8in chef knife and walmart special (crofton) - fillet, paring, and santoku. i have a nice big bamboo cutting board (20in x 15in) I would say i am using a knife anywhere from 3-9 times per week cutting things up for various things that i am cooking. i tend to do a lot more tap chopping than rock chopping, and tend to do a lot of various herbs, carrots, onions, and chicken, and sometimes (3-4 times per month) filleting of fish. I have limited "true" knife sharpening skills, i can sharpen my pocket knife, but not good enough at it to want to sharped a GOOD knife myself (i am learning, but its slow process, can only dull a knife so fast)

The knives im looking at getting pros and cons

Wusthof classic- the set i was looing at was a 16 piece set with block. Price is nice on these compared to shun, but the back end of the 8in felt extremely heavy in a pinch grip, the balance didn't feel tight to me. the 10 inch version fixed the weight balance, but I have always used 8in chef knives and it felt unwieldy. the paring knife however felt amazing and the santoku-ish (wonder prep i think was its name) was good as well. This may sound kinda cheap and petty, but the black handle with 3 rivets on it i can get cheap steak knives to go with the set. I believe if any steak is cook correctly you dont need a high quality knife to cut through it.


Shun classic- Due to the price dependency i was only looking at a 6 piece set. Firstly, I HAVE NEVER HELD A SHUN. There are no stores in my area that have them in stock to actually hold one to test for balance and feel. I can however buy one from bed bath and beyond try it and then return it (if they ever get them in stock again, go rural Texas). I have read almost everywhere that the Japanese steel in blades are better then the German steel in almost every way, making me lean towards Shun even at the higher price. Finally,

the lifetime sharpening is a big plus for me here, as i have previously stated im not exactly comfortable sharpening a good high quality knife, now do i have anything really suitable for a high end knife, i have a basic sharpening stone and a honing steel that is all. (its also why i love the victorinox, never need to sharpen that dam thing)


Now if i haven't bored you to death yet, are there any other companies/series that would be in this same range of knives. The more i look into both knife sets the more i dislike both of them. the German is to thick and the balance is wrong, and the shun is to fragile to cut through joins of a chicken and my mom would mess up the blade. (she swears she knows how to use knives, then using them to get lids the can opener dropped into the cans -shudders-) Please assist a clueless young man!

Thanks,

Xantok


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

What a good number of forum contributors here feel is that there really isn't that much value gained in owning a set of matching knives all from the same line. You pretty much are being forced to mold your selection to what the set is offering. Essential knives tend to be shorter than desired or useful, and they aren't as bang for buck as they seem. As an example, the vast majority of my cutting is done with a chefs knife (gyuto) or a Chinese cleaver, and if I sunk 300-350 into that one knife (instead of a many piece set) I could get something really really prestige and be very happy indeed. Then get a good paring /petty knife and bread knife for under 150$ together and that covers what I generally use in a week. Take some time to think about whether you would really put some quality usage into a 6-8 piece set, or whether your cutting needs are realistically covered by something like 3 or so knives or maybe plus a specialty knife that is better to pick out exactly for your needs anyways.

If it helps about not having things to try locally, I think the only shop I know of in Texas that has Japanese knives past Shun is Metier Cooks Supply in Austin, which is a couple of hours from me. All my good knives I've purchased from e-tailers.

If you go thinner, harder knives, keep the victorinox around for any usage with some chance of hitting bone.

If you are willing to improve your sharpening skills and maybe pick up another stone or two, I would absolutely trust your own sharpening more than a lifetime service down the line. You are the person in the world who will care the most about the proper quality and result of a sharpening job you get for your knives. And there is no waiting for a couple weeks turnaround where I believe you pay the shipping anyways where you don't have your nice knives to use. After a couple of weeks to months of semi-regular practice, it ceases to seem like so much of a big deal to sharpen high end knives, and you get some absolutely delightful knife edges.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Also, if you're looking to expand your shopping choices, look up previous threads in this forum to get some more ideas on what else is out there (a lot, and there is some really cool stuff out there).


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

the issue with going multiple knives with different people is a shoddy looking knife block. i like knife blocks they give me access to whatever knife i need without going into a drawer looking for them, it also protects the blades better then a knife drawer will. However if that is what people recommend that is what i will look into. Yall are the informed parties im the clueless grad student

i plan on heading to a professional knife shop in Dallas here in about 2 weeks to hold and feel the knives i am looking into. i am NOT putting more then 100 bucks into any knife i cant hold and feel before purchase.

on the sharpening scene i picked up some junk chef knife that was duller then dull at a yard sale and i have been thinking about starting to work on learning how to do it, unfortunately the only stone i have is some crappy one i picked up from a sporting goods store when i was 16, ive been looking into various stones online but until i can at least keep my angle consistent no point in really investing into a good one, dont need to ruin a good stone and knife learning.

my Victorinox isnt going anywhere, its what i give to my mom when she wants to help, you can run that thing over with a tank and it would laugh it off.

i have been digging around the forums alot and have found some other alternatives, im defiantly seeing a trend with Japanese knifes taking preference over the western knife companies. so i am leaning more towards going with a Japanese company over the wusthof. ill keep this post updated as people respond and yall will most liekly be cursed with a more indepth one in the future asking more direct and detailed questions. Unfortunately living in the void where i do there isnt anyone i can sit down and talk face to face about with knives.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I recommend wusthof for you. It doesn't cut great and it's not fun to sharpen.  On the other hand it can take a lot of abuse.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Going to Dallas to try out a few is a great idea. Bring a couple of carrots, spuds, etc just in case the shop doesn't have any. Bring band aids just in case too. Test until you are satisfied and buy what your heart and experience dictates. Enjoy and let us know your decision

I'd tell you my suggestion but don't want to influence your experience too much!


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

no please give me other knives to look into, i am not gonna buy a knife because you say "omg its the best thing ever" my uncle swears by wusthof, but i disliked the weight balance. any and all suggestions are welcomed it might give me more insight into other knife brands and series to investigate more

as for the ruggedness of the wusthof i agree they may amazing for beating the crap out of, but i had to cut up about 5 lbs of potaotes and carrots for Christmas and came out sore and blistered. thats what started my investigation into a good knife. i am looking for a knife i can use to cut vegetables mostly, anything with bones ill still bust out the good ol Victorinox (and when mom visits) i was looking for something sharper and better suited for "soft" cutting for larger meals.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The more you learn of Japanese knives the less you will be satisfied with Shun Classic or Germans.

Your want of a knife block is easy enough satisfied though.

There are other storage options for knives like mag strips and others you can see most easily on Amazon, and knife blocks are for the most part ugly things, but here is one of the exceptions, I have this one, it is the only option my SO would allow me (she controls the decor absolutely).


Now you have a block to be proud of, if you want to go that route, it will look good regardless of how eclectic the knives it holds, and just $40 into your budget, and of course there are other options in the price range that offer more spaces, just take care that they fit the length of whatever knives you wind up with.

I'd add that blade geometry is far more important than the handle and any other considerations of feel. For the remaining $460 of your budget you could have a nice entry level Japanese 240 gyuto and suji,150 petty, bread knife ceramic steel and a combi stone.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

i have also seen alot of people referring to the 240 mm gyuto on various other threads. that is about a 9.5 inch knife, are there any major benefits to stepping up to that length blade rather then sticking to the 8" blade im used to.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Regardless of whatever storage route you go, it's helpful to have or make a couple of really cheap blade guards or sheaths. They can be as simple as cardboard and a strong tape. My storage of most commonly used knives includes sayas and now a fridge mounted mag rack.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

foody518 said:


> Regardless of whatever storage route you go, it's helpful to have or make a couple of really cheap blade guards or sheaths. They can be as simple as cardboard and a strong tape. My storage of most commonly used knives includes sayas and now a fridge mounted mag rack.


ROFL.. my current storage rack is a piece of plywood with slots drilled into it with a piece of foam from my PC case glued to


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I mentioned that as an option to mitigate cutting yourself incidentally. Good knives get terrifyingly sharp with the right treatment. 

I'm guessing you're closest to Dallas? If you were anywhere close to Houston you could probably try some of my knives 

240mm - blade is long enough to halve most large watermelons without having to saw the back end then pull back to saw the close end. That's something I'll be looking for when they're next in-season. It's really not an awkward jump from 8 inches either. I pretty much picked up my first 240mm blade after it came in and was like "oh this is so much better".


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

yea i live up by oklahoma, thanks for the offer though. ill look into the 240 range of blades they seem to be more common then the 210s i was looking at.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Shun's QC is much better than it used to be, and their Fuji line are good examples of what Japanese knives should be, but the price is still out of proportion.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

i think the focus of the quest is incorrect. Why bother with upgrading knives if there isn't a solid plan for keeping either the current or future knives sharp.

If 5lbs of spuds and carrots resulted in pain then there are fundamentals to address before getting caught up in the Internet knife hype.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

i am planning on learnign to sharpen. i am most likely still atleast a month out of purchasing anything. i am kinda obcessive when it coes to buying anything that i plan on keeping a long time

i have a crappy stone and a bad knife i got from yard sale for a dollar im gonna to be practicing on. im gonna sharpen it till it can cut paper then dremel the edge off and sharpen again. so i will be learning to sharpen its on my todo list. i really dont want to get a good quality stone and mess it up by sharpening in one spot to much or damage a 150 dollar knife with bad practices.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I can save you some time there. What you will learn is that cheap stainless is no fun to sharpen and wont hold an edge anyway.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

so it wont teach me the basics of holding hte angle and sharpening methods?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You can learn something from that kind of exercise but I think his point is that it may be very frustrating. Cheap knives may be a good way to point out basic sharpening technique flaws but the knife may never get blazingly sharp or stay sharp. So it may be frustrating. It might be a better option to invest in decent stones or even a decent sharpening machine and bring your Vic into better working condition... And keep it in good sharpness. Chefs for many years have cooked very effectively with that kind of knife and had no need for a trendy Jknife.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

i would perfer being frustrated with a cheap knife then be irrate because i messed up my expensive knife.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Contrarily I feel cheap stainless is a good thing to practice on, you'll certainly learn to tackle the worst that burr-removal has to offer. And when you can polish it sharp enough to whittle hair then you know you've mastered the basics.

But cheap stainless and rotten stones = near futile experience. All you'll learn is how to hold an angle, maybe, because feedback between the edge and the stone will likely be poor or completely non-existent, especially with a thick edge.

Get this stone http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Combin...173698?hash=item2c9f2e50c2:g:mQwAAOSwT6pVvAeX

It's cheap and you will be able to handle your cheap stainless with it, both thinning and putting on a serviceable, if not hair-whittling, edge. Just don't try to draw a burr with the 250 grit side, not unless you need to remove significant dings.


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## wrobelan (Feb 23, 2015)

Have you looked at the shun blue line? I've had the 8 inch kiritsuke for over a year now and love it. The issues with chipping and heat treatment do not seem to be a factor with this line. Also it is constantly available for $170.00.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

i have, however i am also finding what seems to be better knives for the same price of the shun. it seems like your paying for the stamp on the balde not just the knife itsself


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## wrobelan (Feb 23, 2015)

Xantok said:


> i have, however i am also finding what seems to be better knives for the same price of the shun. it seems like your paying for the stamp on the balde not just the knife itsself


I don't know that it is as simple as that, but if your search has yielded something you think is better then go ahead with your gut.

As for your preoccupation with having different brands/styles, I think it is nice to have a varied selection on handles and styles. If you are constantly doing whole chickens you might also want to investigate a honesuki. I could not live without mine.

Best of luck with your set.


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## markinlondon (Jan 21, 2016)

I went through the exact process you have have gone through, started young with a set of high-end german knives and then later picking up a half dozen Shun Classics. I do not regret my decisions or progressions at all. But If I had to give sage advice (which of course is questionable at times), I would suggest that you get the Shun Classic chef knife and paring knife. Hold off on the others. You'll find that you can do everything with just those. Whist there are any number of people who have experience with blade problems, I'd like to say that my experience with the Shun VG10 has been excellent. They arrive sharp and stay sharp for a very long time. They are fine knives. 

As for maintenance, I would suggest that you pick up a leather strop and paste it with something some smaller than 2 microns. Strop it whenever you feel like and the Shuns will stay sharp for years without ever needing a whetstone.

What's important to know is that your opinions will develop as you use these two knives. You may find that you want another blade shape or a different steel, or a particular whetstone. That's normal. My humble suggestion is that you use the knives and develop the experience that affords you more informed decisions later on. Then you can can start down the brutal role of semi-custom high carbon Japanese knives and reasonably exotic whetstones.

I've got, and use in my home kitchen a 5" Sakai petty, a Masakage Koishi Santoku and an 8" Shun chef knives. I've certainly got a few others in my block, like a Victorinox santoku and paring, as well as a couple of other Shuns, but the petty, santoku and chef get used the most. I strop regularly, often for no particular reason, and when I do use a stone, a Naniwa 1000 SS and Coticule is all I ever touch. The stack of other hones is reserved for other knives (camping and straight razors).

I hope that helps.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Deep scratch marks on the edge.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

well,. looks liek im in the market for a stone... i was using mine i stood up and bumped the table it hit the floor and shattered.... something tells me i didnt have much hope with a stone that fragile.

the shun blue seems to be a better series then the normal shuns.. ill look more into it. but im leaning towards a 240mm gyuto i found on japeneseknifeimports, and they actually have that knife in the knife store ill be visiting in the future. its a gheshen or something similar to that. im not at my house to get its exact name, but it seem to have a similar method of forging to the shuns


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## markinlondon (Jan 21, 2016)

Xantok said:


> well,. looks liek im in the market for a stone... i was using mine i stood up and bumped the table it hit the floor and shattered.... something tells me i didnt have much hope with a stone that fragile.
> 
> the shun blue seems to be a better series then the normal shuns.. ill look more into it. but im leaning towards a 240mm gyuto i found on japeneseknifeimports, and they actually have that knife in the knife store ill be visiting in the future. its a gheshen or something similar to that. im not at my house to get its exact name, but it seem to have a similar method of forging to the shuns


A new stone? Only one word is required: Coticule! But I may be biased as I have several  In all seriousness though, you can do all the sharpening you ever need with one Coticule by simply varying your technique.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You really can't go wrong with a Gesshin knife.

The Belgian coticules are either the blue that's estimated around 4k or the yellow around 8k grit right? How do you ever thin your knife with such fine stones? 

It's irking to me that some of the Japanese knives we talk about are considered exotic or some extra level of hassle or snobbishness because our brick and mortar shops have a homogeneous and limited selection. I would love to be a knife obsessed ordinary person in Tokyo who can go into the knife shops there and browse through walls and walls of great knives.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't know about doing anything with a coticule, but I think they are really meant for softer carbon steels as the abrasive is not very hard or otherwise agressive.


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## xantok (Jan 29, 2016)

this is what im eyeballing, going with traditional handle as it allws both right and left cutting being ambidextrous thats a huge plus. i had my mom record me cooking and i was flipping that knife hand to hand depending on what i was doing. apparently the bulk of my cutting is done with my left hand, however i use my right hand for more precise cutting. Dont know why i do, but apparently thats my habit. (im thinking so i can use right hand to mix/stir thing on the stove, not really sure)

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...oducts/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto

i looked at the shun blue series, they seems like bad ass knives but i dont think i wanna get into a $400 knife off the bat. if i was doign this professionally i would be more inclined to spend that money, but as i am not making anything off cooking and its for fun i dont think i need a product of that value just yet.

after looking around and thinking what knives i use i use basicaly 3 knives (4 if you wanna be technical) for EVERYTHING i do.

chef knife/santoku - i use these two interchangeably, a i do alot of tap chopping, but i liek the chef knife's point tip for certian situations... most of the time this is the only one i ever use. many many times per week

paring knife - general paring knife things. peeling, deseeding, ect. i would say 4-5 times per week

and fillet knife - once a week maybe, doing what they do best getting my fish ready to be cooked.

whit this information i am looking at spending more on a chef, that way i have a good version of what i use most.

I have a new sharpening stone on the way to me its am old Japanese composite stone my uncle is sending me to use till i get one for myself. it has a fixer stone with it as well. so i will be focusing on sharpening to a competent level, untill the end of the month when i take my trip to dallas


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> I don't know about doing anything with a coticule, but I think they are really meant for softer carbon steels as the abrasive is not very hard or otherwise agressive.


I've heard them mentioned often with regard to straight razor sharpening. Seem preferred by many for that application.


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## markinlondon (Jan 21, 2016)

> I don't know about doing anything with a coticule, but I think they are really meant for softer carbon steels as the abrasive is not very hard or otherwise agressive.


It has to do with the Moh's hardness scale. The garnets in the Coticule will cut steel as high as 74 Rockwell, far higher than the steel used in kitchen knives. Cuticles will sharpen anything that we use.

The beauty of Coticule use is how the slurry is used. A thick slurry will fully suspend the garnets and allow the Coticule to behave with the performance of a 1000 grit synthetic stone. As the slurry is diluted to clear water, it will behave as 10k synthetic stone. It's a very versatile rock that has honed knives and tools for hundreds of years.

Despite owning DMTs, various Arkansas rocks, a Naniwa 1k, a Dragon's Tongue, a few Belgian Blues, a Charnley Forest, and a couple of Ayrstones, I typically grab one of a half-dozen Cuticles for my sharpening needs. My Coticules maintain a wide variety of knives, in a wide variety of knife steels, from O1, Silver Steel, VG10, 440C, Blue Supersteel, and whatever Victorinox and Opinel uses. I also hone my razors, which run the gamut from 19th century Sheffield blades, to Spanish, German and French razor steel. The Coticule does it all.

In all fairness, using a Coticule is not for everyone. Being a natural stone, they are all a bit different, with some being faster or slower than others, and it's important to learn how your Coti behaves before you get perfect edges. It may sound completely odd, but eventually you develop a relationship with your Coti and know exactly how it sounds and feels. That's how you know how and when to dilute the slurry.

A good Coticule will cost around £100 depending on size, but a 200mm x 60mm Belgian Blue behaves similarly to the yellow Coticule and will cost about half as much. The Blue is also used with slurry and will also put a shaving sharp edge on your knife. I wouldn't hesitate to use one on my chefs knives if I had one large enough, but I have a large Coticule and use it for everything. It's truly a do-everything rock once you get used to it.


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