# white-white wedding cake



## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

I know this has probably been discussed here before but...

What is your favorite recipe for icing on a wedding cake that must be white-white? 

I have a few but wonder if there isn't something better.

thanx in advance,
eeyore


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Bright white icing has to have shortening in it, all butter is always ivory once it sits. I'd go 50/50, butter/shortening many places go 100% shortening (100% shortening is what most people complain about with bakery frostings).

Other way to get a bright white, use rolling fondant over your butter cream. Wilton sells a white food color to whiten frosting. If your making more of a simple frosting using clear vanilla extract instead of reg. which can darken your white.


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

Thanks, those are the basic ideas I had. I have found that even a 50/50 ratio will turn off-white. But I just cant stand the thought of Crisco icing.

I have used the stuff called "white-white" It takes so much to really make a difference, Im wondering if I do an entire wedding cake with the stuff it will effect the taste. Is that possible? 

Isn't there some margarines that aren't yellow? Would they at least be better than straight shortening?

ugh
eeyore


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I'll probably be burned alive for this, but oh well-

Use lard (non-hydrogenized), not shortening. It's the same consistency, is pure white, and isn't trans-fatty junk. I also think (and it may just be my imagination!) that it tastes better, in icing, or anything that calls for shortening. I haven't bought shortening for ages now.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

I used a white chocolate/cream cheese icing on a wedding cake in July last year - It held up really well in the hot weather once it was chilled.


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

hmmmmm....interesting. Recipes?


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I've always used the Wilton Buttercream Icing recipe, and just substituted lard for the shortening. The lard should be soft, room temperature. It's shelf-stable, so refrigeration isn't necessary as long as you wrap it up each time you're done with it. If you buy lard in buckets, of course, just put the lid back on each time you're done with it.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Used to use Fleischman's corn oil margarine in a buttercream at a place. Wasn't totally white, but it's a lot less yellow than butter. I think a teeny bit of blue will make the white whiter. We used to warm 18 eggs with 4 cups of sugar and then beat it till fluffy, then beat in 11 lbs margarine. The advantage of a buttercream made this way, or with an Italian meringue, is that you don't get that gritty confectioner's sugar feeling on the roof of the mouth. I would not under any circumstances use lard on a cake unless you wanted it to taste a little meaty. Disgusting..sorry.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Meaty, indeed. Plus, forget eating any if you're a vegetarian.

TBH, do you mean eggs or egg whites?


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I've never noticed any kind of "meaty" taste when using lard- but it could just be me!


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Re recipe - 

Hey, Eyeore - I used the recipe from Rose Levy Berenbaum's "Cake Bible" book - got it from teh library, but don't have the whole recipe. Sorry. I do remember that there was a tip from Shirley Corriger, who said she used much less butter for a wedding cake in the hot Atlanta summer, and it worked fine. Sorry I couldn't get the whole recipe for you.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Whole eggs is what we used. Warm them up real good and them beat till thick. Course, this was 20 years ago before there was a lot of concern about eggs not being cooked to 145 or whatever. But it does make a nice buttercream.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Ok, just to make sure I was not nuts-

I just went and did a little taste test. Tiny bit of lard. Tiny bit of shortening. Tasted each separately. They taste exactly the same to me. No meaty flavor in the lard. Nor the shortening (which was created to be a substitute for lard, I believe- so they made the taste mimic lard as closely as possible!) Just in case you want to try it.

However, good point about the vegetarians not wanting to eat it! Didn't think of that.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Vegetarian or not, it doesn't sound very appetising...


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Lard is deodorized in the manufacturing process, but I still think it has a funny taste. Every year I want to make a plum pudding, but the bit about the suet increases my pucker factor too much. I broked down and made a pie crust with it this year, but I really can't handle the idea of the stuff.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I agree; it's really gross to handle.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

French butter cream is always the best tasting, but it's limiting. Unforunately shortening is used and has to be used for the color and handling and temp. . 

When I make my frosting I always do 50/50 butter and shortening. THEN I take that frosting and cut it 50/50 with either white chocolate butter cream or french butter cream to cut the xxxsugar taste and add flavor. I think what people object to, it's not the fat....both butter and shortening coat your palate. For me it's the xxxsugar that freaks my tongue and nose out. I hate walking into a bakery that's a cloud of xxxdust.

I prefer to use nutex as my shortening.

Frostings have fat in them, "only butter" is an mental attitute, in my opinion. All butter can be just as gross as all shortening. Cold french buttercream is horrible, warm french butter cream can be like eating a stick of butter. Both decorating frosting and classic butter cream have their advantages and disvantages. That's why I like to mix these two types of frostings as my all around frosting...cuts them both.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I have to disagree with you here, W...

Butter doesn't coat the palate the same way shortening does. It dissolves in the mouth much faster (lower melting point). It also has an irresistible flavor that simply doesn't exist in shortening. XXX sugar and shortening together is disgusting, but it's the shortening that really grosses me out. In the summer I use 20% shortening in buttercreams, but in the winter, it's 100% butter. I find an Italian buttercream to be the king. 

I really don't think it's just attitude at work when people prefer butter.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

thebighat,
do you have that recipe for buttercream with whole eggs?
BTW French Buttercream, we bring the whites and sugar to blood temp. If you go over, your melt point will be much lower in the finished product.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Have to put in my vote with Memoreg on the butter vs. shortening issue. Shortening just sits there on your tongue. I am an IMBC fan for decorating cakes. I think the versions with the powdered sugar are gritty and way to sweet. I did find a recipe though for a marshmallow buttercream that was a good compromise for people who liked something sweeter (marshmallow cream, butter, and pwd sugar). 

I have to say I have such an aversion to the shortening that I could never be adventurous to try the lard.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

o.k. feeling rather slow here....straight Italian butter cream.... and you guys can handle it the same as decorators frosting with xxxsugar & shortening? I can't, I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing something big here, like a decent recipe. I can't re-work classic butter creams the same, it smooths differently and pipes differently then decorators frosting. 

S.O.S.! Can either of you post your recipe? I'm wondering what's wrong with me?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Cook to 240F:
6# sugar
1 qt. water
1 pt. corn syrup

Pour syrup into:
1.5 qt. whites, whipped stiff(add about 8 oz. sugar toward end of whip)

Add:
10 lb. softened butter (or 8# butter with 2# shortening mixed in).
Vanilla extract

Finish with paddle to remove air bubbles if you need it the same day.

I find that letting it sit out for a day settles out a lot of the air. Or you can freeze it, and the tahwing has the same effect.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

2 1/2 cups sugar
and 3/4 c. water

Boil until 248*-250*. While it is boiling:

Whip 1 1/2 c. large eggwhites (about 12) with 
1 1/2t. cream of tartar till soft peaks.

Add syrup. Whip on high for 2 minutes, turn to low and let beat til room temp. Add 5 cups of butter in small amounts until incorporated. If it starts to look curdled just keep beating- it will eventually turn out wonderful. You can add an optional 1 c. of Liqueur or 1 T. vanilla extract. 

For smoothest consistency, use a paddle on low while you are busy doing something else for about 10 minutes.


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

OK, me again. 

Re: shortening. I definately can tell by taste when a "buttercream" is all shortening. There is quite a difference. However I haven't compared shorten. to lard.

Re: sweetness. I am in the deep south. We like our desserts and our tea SWEET. I have heard people complain about desserts being too sweet...but RARELY.

Re: Italian butter cream. This was formerly my icing of choice...but it just isn't as reliable and stable. And still, back to the original ques.: NOT white.

Re: French buttercream. Even less white. And I like it cool--room temp. There is a french bakery nearby (only the owner speaks English--barely) that does meringue layered with hazelnut buttercream and cut in squares..YUM and sweet.

My buttercream recipe:

4# fat (3# butter--1#shorten. preferable)
6# 10X
12oz. COLD water
2t extract
8oz nonfat dry milk powder
1/4 - 1/2t salt.

It is always a hit. The last wedding I did I had two people say that they usually don't like wedding cake but they loved this one. (They probably usually get the Winn Dixie variety--shortening only)

I am now leaning toward using 1/2 margerine (Light in color) 1/2 short. And adding "White/White" And pray that the bride thinks that it is white enough. (Maybe I should put it on a ecru table cloth.LOL

eeyore


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Have you tried looking for a brand of butter that's less yellow? I believe sometimes the color is actually from dye, but I seem to remember reading that more often it's the time of the year and the cow's diet that affects the color. I've seen butter anywhere from the palest, palest yellow to almost a dayglow yellow!

(I realize I know way more about chiles than I do about frosting wedding cakes - I just thought I'd throw this out into the mix!)


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I use Land O Lakes butter (sweet cream, salted) and it is a pretty pale yellow. Much less yellow than any brand of margarine I've ever seen.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Roon, you use salted butter in buttercream??


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Whoops! Little brain cramp there. I don't use salted butter in buttercream icing!  I was just thinking of general applications (toast, etc.)  I prefer it to unsalted butter, but when the occasion calls for it, I do buy unsalted.

Sorry about that!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the posts, I'll have to try them and compare.

Doesn't matter which brand of butter, once it sits at room temp. for 3 hours it's off white. 

Eeyore, honestly before you try margarine (which adds 0 to your flavor) combine the two recipes and see what I mean. 1/2 decorators frosting and 1/2 real butter cream or white chocolate butter cream. Just 25% shortening makes it real stable and white.

I finally made white chocolate cream cheese frosting, boy...I'm not sure about it. Alone I'd rather eat straight cream cheese frosting but when it's on cake it's far better tasting then traditional cream cheese frosting. Weird results....I used my reg. cream cheese frosting and then just folded in melted chocolate for my white. Adding the white chocolate really cut the xxxsugar sweetness, it's actually less rich/sickening sweet. 

I've been working on my white cake again....I played with a doctored cake mix, mixed 50/50 with butter cake. I find I have to have part mix, wether it's instant pudding, dream whip or a cake mix in with my scratch cake to get the right texture. 


Also working out of the Bakers Dozen cookbook with mixed results. Although all of theirs work and are good, their not the best I've come across.

Question: I understand the concept of a white colored cake for a wedding. BUT who ever called it white cake? I can't find any old recipes that ever called any cake 'white'. It seems like it was invented when they began selling cake mixes and homemakers began making their own wedding cakes. Any thoughts? 

(being such a nut that I am) I worry about having the BEST white cake possible for my tastings (cause that will close doors if I don't) but still I haven't eaten anyones 'white cake' that didn't have a mix base. Which classic scratch cake are decorators baking and calling 'white'? Butter, sponge, pound, genoise.....?


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I found a several white cake recipes (non-mix based) at www.allrecipes.com. Type "white cake" in the search box and it bring the recipes right up! Most called for 1/2 cup shortening in the recipe, but some called for butter instead- you could probably experiment with substitutes.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Here's another thought for the white-white icing. Now bear in mind I haven't tried this yet, so I don't know how it would work (however, I'm going to experiment).

Instead of shortening or lard try coconut oil. It's high in saturated fat (90% or so) which keeps it liquid at tropical temperatures, but in a temperate clime, it is supposed to be about the consistency of butter. 

I don't know about taste, but I don't imagine it would taste like coconut. And it would be good for vegetarians without being icky shortening. Some people might object to the saturated fat content, but coconut oil is high in lauric acid (good for you) and I believe it's healthier than the hydrogenated shortening stuff.

But like I said, I haven't actually tried this (yet) so take it all with a grain (or several) of salt. I will post back when I've tried it (within the next month or so- I'm going to make a cake for my mother's birthday in Feb).


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Wendy, for a side by side comparison with xxx buttercream icing and Italian meringue buttercream here is the differences I've found:
1. Italian b/c. is not as stable in hot weather unless you replace about 30-40% of butter with Sweetex. It is possible to make an all-white Italian b/c., just use all Sweetex. It is refered to as decorator's buttercream because it is so easy to pipe flowers with. It still is all shortening so it tastes gross.

2. When icing smooth the sides of the cake, the Italian meringue b/c. is lighter and easier to smooth and pipe. The spatula glides and leaves less off a mark, whereas the xxxb/c. is stiffer/heavier and the spatula doesn't glide as lightly. The spatula "drags" because of all that xxx sugar, so I ususally try and thin the buttercream with more milk/liquid.

3. When I ice a wedding cake with Italian b/c., sometimes the outside icing will develop tiny hairline cracks, even if the board supporting the cake is very sturdy. I've been told I should add a bit of corn syrup or glucose to my Italian b/c. to make it a little more "flexible". This has never happen with xxx b/c. 

For my cake fillings I like to use a French b/c. made with whole eggs. For icing the cake I use xxx b/c with 50/50 butter and Sweetex, and I add some lemon and vanilla extract.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

You agree about needing shortening to 'stablize' all butter cream frosting in hot weather, Dana.

And are you saying in your last sentence that you also combine two frostings (xxxb/c & your IMBC cut 50/50 with shortening), if so that's very close to what I do except I use a white chocolate butter cream not IMBC. SOOOOOO the final result is about 25% butter? Or are you using butter in you xxx b/c, which ups your butter percent?

I agree that IMBC is very light, but I find it has too much air when I decorate...the meringue just doesn't feel right for me. Although it's fine on tortes where less decorating/handle is needed.

I need some technical interpetation, please? I looked back over my recipes and noticed I was making mostly Marcel D.'s butter cream frostings.

His method is uncooked whites whipped with sugar, then butter or any flavorings. Can you call that an Italian meringue? Since it's whites, not yolks? SOOOOO I desided I best not go the raw egg route on my insurance and I heated my whites and sugar over a water bath until HOT(no problems of course). So again, now is that Italian butter cream, or must you have a classic sugar syrup to label it Italian?

Also, I'm very fond of several butter creams I've made from Herme' that start with a pastry cream/anglaise base. What is the correct term for those? German? I prefer to use those as my fillings when I have a cake with flavored butter creams.

oh, P.S. For the first time I added corn syrup to my xxx b/c and liked the results enought to change my base xxx recipe.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

To prevent your IMBC from being too airy, you can cook it to a slightly higher temperature. Also, let it sit out for a day before using it, to give it a chance to settle.

The heated sugar and whites over a water bath is a Swiss meringue, and yes, the other one you describe is German.

If I feel that my buttercream might melt from the heat of the outdoors, I'd rather keep the cake cool as long as possible before sending it out, and maybe (as an option, during the consult)suggest that it doesn't sit out for the entire party, OR I use a dummy, and keep a backup cold (yes, that alternative is more costly to the client). I would rather avoid melting buttercream that way, than give them a not very good tasting icing. For whatever it's worth.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

My IMBC recipe is quite similar to momoreg's but it doesn't have corn syrup. I will try her recipe soon.I boil the sugar to 250F. Italian meringue is syrup added to eggwhites, Common meringue is straight granulated sugar added to whipped whites, and Swiss meringue is juat what momoreg said. 
For cake fillings, a buttercream made with yolks or whole eggs is my preference(syrup added to the eggs---called French buttercream) because it provides added richness, flavor and body when using chocolate or caramel. For fruit flavored buttercreams I usually use IMBC because the fruit flavor shows up cleaner and sharper.
No Wendy I don't combine the two types of buttercream like you described, it just seems like a lot of work. For wedding cake work I've been using xxxBC(Wilton's style) made with 50% shortening and 50% butter. After all the stability and heat problems I've encountered living in Los Angeles, it seems like my safest bet. I've been using a lot more fondant than buttercream, however.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Talking about fondant.....I ran into something yesterday that I was really amazed about. I made a rolled butter cream frosting (from Marsha Windbeckler) for the first time. It's very close to fondant but it's moister, less dense and much better in flavor.

I only had a dummy cake to try it over, but it can be patched easily if you get a tear. It would be tricky to handle with a large cake. BUT mixed 50/50 with purchased rolled fondant and you have a much better product then either alone!! 

I also did buy the chocopan fondants, dark chocolate and white chocolate. So far I just don't care for it.....perhaps it will grow on me in time. I forget, are you using this Anna? The taste is fake, not even close to real chocolate (even though the ingredient lists it) and it's not that easy to handle. I'm going to make Rose's chocolate rolled fondant today, to compare.

Then (lots of experiments) I made the chocolate plastic from elegant cheese cakes (the pretty cakes I posted their site earilier). NOW that's worth taking notice! I had previously made the chocolate clay I'd heard so much about. It uses those candy melts. That's o.k.. But make it with real chocolate and you have perfection! Besides you can buy real chocolate for less money then the candy melts.

I'm really having fun experimenting. I've wanted to try these recipes for a long time and never had the time. So far they REALLY have been worth the effort.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Talking about fondant got me curious. In watching my friend's mother roll out fondant and spread it over her cake (which was interesting, and looked very difficult, esp. over the lower tier of the cake which was a very large square) I was quite impressed. I've heard of poured fondant and seen it in boxes (I guess you mix it up and pour it over the cake). Which is better? I've never actually heard of anyone using the poured stuff, but I guess someone must, because they still sell it.

What is the Marsha Windbeckler frosting you mentioned? Is it a specific recipe? If so, where can I get it?

I'm just an amateur decorator (amateur in the extreme) but I enjoy it and I like to learn new things. 

And no, I do not sell my cakes. I make them for my enjoyment, and my family's. I have enough respect for the difficulty, time, and effort involved in making these cakes that I wouldn't dream of taking business away from someone legitimate. Besides, with school, kids, a husband, a dog, and my garden, I don't have time!


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

The poured fondant is generally what you see on petit fours glace. It has a satiny sheen, and is never really dry to the touch the way rolled fondant is. 

I've never used the rolled buttercream, but I've always been curious about it. Maybe I'll order some to play around with.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Ah! Thank you very much.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner Roon. The rolled butter cream is really pretty neat! Have you ever eaten rolled fondant? It's pretty similar but I've never made rolled fondant (yet) so this new rolled butter cream is interesting because it taste so much better then bought fondant. But the rolled buttercream is sort of delicate so you can mix it with fondant and use that on your cakes. It's gives cakes a perfect finish (kind of hard for me to explain).

I don't have the recipe in front of me but I'll post it later if you like. Basicly it's like the shortening style butter cream with corn syrup and more xxxsugar to make it stiff enough to roll.

I wonder if you'll like it Momoreg. I think you will when you add it to fondant (it's cool). But it is very much like the xxx frosting you don't care for taste wise....

hey I made Rose levy's rolled chocolate fondant....pretty cool.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

just wondering with the added sugar, if it will quicken the melt or sweat in the cooler?


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## marzipan (Oct 19, 2001)

Can I add a vote for "yuck" on lard in icing? 

I know some people claim they cannot taste a difference between lard and shortening, but trust me, some of us can. IMHO, it tastes meaty and almost kind of rancid.

Others cannot eat lard b/c of dietary, religious/spiritual reasons. 

Others cannot eat lard for medical reasons- I have an uncle who cannot ingest lard- it makes him very very ill.

Frankly, I'm horrified by the fact that someone might use lard in icing. I won't even cook with it.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Good point Panini, I didn't think about that. But I think mixed with reg. rolling fondant it will be fine. Check out the recipe I'll post it, there's alot of shortening to hold the sugar.

1 c. shortening (veg.)
1 c. light corn syrup
1/2 tsp. salt
1 tsp. vanilla
1/2 tsp. almond (or what ever flavoring you'd like)
2 lbs. xxx sugar

Maybe I discribed it wrong it's more shortening then normal actually???? I have to think on that.

But you can shape items with this too which might have some good applications.... 

Do you ever mix your rolled fondant with sugar paste? I'm going to try that, it was recommended on a cake decorating site.


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