# Forgiving, easy care, mid to high price Japanese knife



## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Hi eveyone,

Completely stuck with Sakai, Gesshin, Kanetsugu, ,Kanetsune, Fujiwara Karefusa FKM series, Misono, etc etc etc
Please, share your thoughts on which knife would best suit:
-for beginner and low intermediate user, that is the knife should be forgiving mistakes;
-easy to care (user has experience with stones on low medium level);
-does not cause any smell when cutting food, etc,
-is rust-prone;
-is sharp out of the box 
-is durable
-is comfortable and appealing in looks
-is in mid to high price range (we are going to but 3 knives - chef's and sort of 2 parings - 1 longer, 1 shorter - plus stone, rod and rest, and it should be below 500$ preferably);
-is not known to cause some problems..

Thank you much in advance!)


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

"Completely stuck with Sakai, Gesshin, Kanetsugu, ,Kanetsune, Fujiwara Karefusa FKM series, Misono, etc etc etc"
What went wrong?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> "Completely stuck with Sakai, Gesshin, Kanetsugu, ,Kanetsune, Fujiwara Karefusa FKM series, Misono, etc etc etc"
> What went wrong?


Nothing, I just cannot choose between them or any others because most have controversal reviews...


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You’ll never find a knife brand that does not have some degree of “controversial reviews”. Knife nuts/reviewers are passionate… and their passion isn’t necessarily gospel. Most of the time these folks are just self-proclaiming their knowledge and expertise anyway. Do your homework to the best of your ability and make a choice. Look for the trends and not for a single optimal answer. There are usually several choices that are “right enough”.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

And ask. Most are very well known here. Realise you're not looking for a brand but for one or two knives, not necessarily from the same brand or series. Properties and value may change a lot between different series.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Ive studied many available sources, still I am lost yo choose the vest. Any advice on the abovementioned or other brands particular products - chef's, petty, paring, utility? The person wants knives from same series, or at least from same brand, so that they look moreorless identical.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

For example, what can you say about Tojiro Pro, Kanetsugu sauin and Fujiwara Karefusa FKM compared to Mac Professional?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

When speaking about easy maintenance: VG-10, the steel used in the Tojiro PRO as well in the DP series isn't the easiest to sharpen. When the user is a novice, expect serious difficulties in deburring VG-10. By the way, forget any other form of daily maintenance, especially with this steel type. No polished steel rod or ceramic one, as the⁹ steel is supposed to be maintained on stones, used in a progression of three ones. I do like the DP series, not just for their value: but I do like sharpening, but using three stones may be deterring to some. By the way, I don't see the advantage of a steel handle over a composite one.
The MAC Professional series are far too expensive for what they offer. Decent knives, a bit on the heavy side, apparently meant for a public used to the big Germans. Otherwise I would call it common. At that price level you may get so much better.
Have a look at japanesechefsknife.com and get an idea what is available at this price point.
The Kanetsugu you're referring to has a core of VG-10 as well, and a convexed edge. Not sure how a new sharpener is going to maintain it, as a stone sharpening does normally establish a straight edge. No big deal to an experienced sharpener, whether he keeps the convexity or not, but a brean-teaser to anyone else. Apart from the edge, it comes with a Damascus pattern that doesn't contribute in any way to its performance, but makes maintenance problematic. Good sharpening involves thinning, as the edge comes in a slightly thicker part of the blade. There's a taper: a spine is 2-3mm thick, just behind the edge it's about 0.2mm. At 5mm from there thickness is 0.5mm. It's therefore good practice to start by thinning, or after a year or so the knife performs like an axe. This thinning will scratch the area right behind the bevel, and perhaps a bit further, due to stone slurry. No big deal with other knives, as you may very well polish it out. Not so with a Damascus. To restore its original appearance, you have to work on the entire blade with different grits of sandpaper in order to get an even result. After that, an aggressive corrosive substance is being applied to recover the contrast between the different steel types which makes the pattern. A huge task for a simple sharpening. Most Damascus blades look therefore horrible after half a year of use.

The Fujiwara Kanefusa FKM represent excellent value and may give an idea of what a lighter and thinner blade is capable of. If the first blade has to be stainless it is a rather good choice, with easy sharpening. Get two stones with it, one in the 800-1200 range, and one around 3k.
Perhaps the Misono 440 series could interest you. Easy sharpening, and a very nice Fit&Finish. 
An excellent performing light-weight is the Sabatier 200 series. https://www.sabatier-k.com/cuisine-25-cm-serie-200-manche-en-g10.html
Forget all you know about the bents, warps and overgrinds we are used to with traditional French knives. This one is on par with the Misonos, if not better. Steel is 14C28N, say AEB-L on steroids, with a composite (G10) handle. One of the rare knives to come with a decent factory edge. Price is, including a leather saya, lower than your MAC. If you buy in Europe, you don't pay the VAT.

You should be aware that knives we are speaking about rarely come out of the box with a good edge. If you have the opportunity to buy with the American korin.com, they offer a free 'initial stone sharpening'. Very interesting to a beginner in sharpening, as you it gives an edge you may follow when further maintaining.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> When speaking about easy maintenance: VG-10, the steel used in the Tojiro PRO as well in the DP series isn't the easiest to sharpen. When the user is a novice, expect serious difficulties in deburring VG-10. By the way, forget any other form of daily maintenance, especially with this steel type. No polished steel rod or ceramic one, as the⁹ steel is supposed to be maintained on stones, used in a progression of three ones. I do like the DP series, not just for their value: but I do like sharpening, but using three stones may be deterring to some. By the way, I don't see the advantage of a steel handle over a composite one.
> The MAC Professional series are far too expensive for what they offer. Decent knives, a bit on the heavy side, apparently meant for a public used to the big Germans. Otherwise I would call it common. At that price level you may get so much better.
> Have a look at japanesechefsknife.com and get an idea what is available at this price point.
> The Kanetsugu you're referring to has a core of VG-10 as well, and a convexed edge. Not sure how a new sharpener is going to maintain it, as a stone sharpening does normally establish a straight edge. No big deal to an experienced sharpener, whether he keeps the convexity or not, but a brean-teaser to anyone else. Apart from the edge, it comes with a Damascus pattern that doesn't contribute in any way to its performance, but makes maintenance problematic. Good sharpening involves thinning, as the edge comes in a slightly thicker part of the blade. There's a taper: a spine is 2-3mm thick, just behind the edge it's about 0.2mm. At 5mm from there thickness is 0.5mm. It's therefore good practice to start by thinning, or after a year or so the knife performs like an axe. This thinning will scratch the area right behind the bevel, and perhaps a bit further, due to stone slurry. No big deal with other knives, as you may very well polish it out. Not so with a Damascus. To restore its original appearance, you have to work on the entire blade with different grits of sandpaper in order to get an even result. After that, an aggressive corrosive substance is being applied to recover the contrast between the different steel types which makes the pattern. A huge task for a simple sharpening. Most Damascus blades look therefore horrible after half a year of use.
> ...


 Wow! Just wow! Thank you so much for enlightening so much valuable info!!!

Now, let me check my understanding. I got you say the Damasc is no go.

I got that VG-10 is difficult to sharpen and that every alloy requires different technique, instruments and expertise, so it is not that simple like take a stone they send you in email and youll be fine.

I have searched through JCK thourouhly, I see options of the Mac price level, but the problem is I dont know which of them are in line with Mac quality too. When I search for reviews, it is all very controversal...That is why I basically created this post. Becausr I am lost in the brands in JCK and other websites..

So now I will have a look at Fujiwara FKM, Misono 440 and Sabatier.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Is there an official website of Fujiwara Kanefusa? Cant find it. Want to check with them for the dealers here, in Russia.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Ah, and one more thing. If I look at a chefs, say petty and utility, for ex, all three would be about the same price whether it is Mac, Kanefusa or Sabatier..

If Mac is nice quality but overpriced, and these have about same price, does it mean they are actually of better quality than Mac?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Nothing wrong with the MAC.
But for same amount of money you can get better knives. I'd be prepared to pay about the half of its price for the MAC. 
For that money I would buy https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/search-results-page?q=deep+impact
There are a lot of small factories making excellent knives, but without well-known names. They hardly care about marketing. And a brand doesn't necessarily mean there's a factory with that name on its front. Sometimes it's A who makes the handle, B makes the blade, C assembling, D grinding, E selling it under the name of F. 
MAC does exist as a brand and as a factory in brick and mortar. So does Misono. But MAC also has its own distribution network in the world, does work with some retailers and not with others and fixes their retail prices. It can do so because it was one of the first Japanese names to go for export, especially amongst professional users, requiring simple to maintain, relatively soft blades, but originally thinner and lighter than they were used to, and sharper out of the box than the big German names. Easily recognisable.
Since, some 50 years ago, they haven't changed much. No introduction of other steels, involving a different organisation of the Heat Treatment. The name MAC had become well-known, no reason to change anything as long as they may ask what they want.
If your ex wants a MAC, no problem with that. I wouldn't even discuss it. He probably wouldn't even recognise technically far better ones. Get him his MAC.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

No, he is easy either way. He liked the FKM too. Its on me to help him choose. Would you please compare the FKM and JCK deep impact?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

With Mac I tend to agree with you judging from their reaction to the complaint on rude manner of russian exclusive dealers of their. No reaction was to this.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> No, he is easy either way. He liked the FKM too. Its on me to help him choose. Would you please compare the FKM and JCK deep impact?


Different leagues. The FKM are decent, entry level basic knives. The steel is chosen for being easy sharpening and forgiving.
The Deep Impact have a core in Aogami Super, a high-grade carbon steel, brought to a high hardness, but with no trace of brittleness. The thinneth behind the edge allows a conservative edge without the loss of performance. The result is an exceptional edge retention, even under harsh circumstances, as poor poly boards. With the stainless cladding you don't have to worry about rust or food discolouration as with monosteel carbons. Only a small part of the core is exposed, and it gets stable within a few days of use, when a patina has installed and it turns black. From then on, it's inert as stainless. Just wipe it off after use. Don't leave it dirty overnight. Exactly as you shouldn't do with stainless either. The grinding is subtle, allowing a good food release with a fatter section from the heel, tending to flatten towards the tip. The micarta handle is inert to influences as hygrometry changes.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Different leagues. The FKM are decent, entry level basic knives. The steel is chosen for being easy sharpening and forgiving.
> The Deep Impact have a core in Aogami Super, a high-grade carbon steel, brought to a high hardness, but with no trace of brittleness. The thinneth behind the edge allows a conservative edge without the loss of performance. The result is an exceptional edge retention, even under harsh circumstances, as poor poly boards. With the stainless cladding you don't have to worry about rust or food discolouration as with monosteel carbons. Only a small part of the core is exposed, and it gets stable within a few days of use, when a patina has installed and it turns black. From then on, it's inert as stainless. Just wipe it off after use. Don't leave it dirty overnight. Exactly as you shouldn't do with stainless either. The grinding is subtle, allowing a good food release with a fatter section from the heel, tending to flatten towards the tip. The micarta handle is inert to influences as hygrometry changes.


Thank you! Forgive me my dullness, which one would you opt for? Seems they have individual characteristics. Lets say, the most important in my case is forgiveness, resistance to abuse, like with the boards, and easy maintenance. BTW, does FKM have any problems with handle smell?
And which board would you recom? Thanks again for much valuable info!!!


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Different leagues. The FKM are decent, entry level basic knives. The steel is chosen for being easy sharpening and forgiving.
> The Deep Impact have a core in Aogami Super, a high-grade carbon steel, brought to a high hardness, but with no trace of brittleness. The thinneth behind the edge allows a conservative edge without the loss of performance. The result is an exceptional edge retention, even under harsh circumstances, as poor poly boards. With the stainless cladding you don't have to worry about rust or food discolouration as with monosteel carbons. Only a small part of the core is exposed, and it gets stable within a few days of use, when a patina has installed and it turns black. From then on, it's inert as stainless. Just wipe it off after use. Don't leave it dirty overnight. Exactly as you shouldn't do with stainless either. The grinding is subtle, allowing a good food release with a fatter section from the heel, tending to flatten towards the tip. The micarta handle is inert to influences as hygrometry changes.


And which rod do I choose for FKM? As far as I got it, you said no ceramics for stainless steel, is that correct?

No, sorry, seems it concerned VG-10


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> And which rod do I choose for FKM? As far as I got it, you said no ceramics for stainless steel, is that correct?


A rod is especially problematic with VG-10 because of its tendency to create a wire edge - forget this technical point.
If you're very careful, you may use a steel rod like the Dickoron Micro or Polish with any other steel, provided it isn't too hard. But it requires a very light touch. The same with a ceramic rod, that really removes a bit of fatigued steel. I would suggest the Sieger LongLife.
Better use your finest stone for 'daily' (=weekly) maintenance, though. Less likely to do harm.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Thank you much! Im looking forward to your reply to the previous message😉


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Thank you! Forgive me my dullness, which one would you opt for? Seems they have individual characteristics. Lets say, the most important in my case is forgiveness, resistance to abuse, like with the boards, and easy maintenance. BTW, does FKM have any problems with handle smell?
> And which board would you recom? Thanks again for much valuable info!!!


Just to make sure: I should have asked whether your ex is right-handed. It's an important point as Japanese knives are optimised for use by right-handers. Left-handers are in the best case splendidly ignored.
As for your question: I would go for the Deep Impact 240 gyuto, as it will require much less maintenance. Forget different rods, a few strokes on your finest stone will do for weeks of home use. 
About a board: have an edge grain one, no end grain. No bamboo. European birch is nice to the blade's edge. Wood species have different properties depending on their origin. I you buy an European made birch you're pretty sure local wood has been used. Expect it to cost €80-100.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Just to make sure: I should have asked whether your ex is right-handed. It's an important point as Japanese knives are optimised for use by right-handers. Left-handers are in the best case splendidly ignored.
> As for your question: I would go for the Deep Impact 240 gyuto, as it will require much less maintenance. Forget different rods, a few strokes on your finest stone will do for weeks of home use.
> About a board: have an edge grain one, no end grain. No bamboo. European birch is nice to the blade's edge. Wood species have different properties depending on their origin. I you buy an European made birch you're pretty sure local wood has been used. Expect it to cost €80-100.


Those gyutos are gone. Please, correct me if Im wrong. I get that both fkm and di require just a few strokes weekly and no rods basically, is that correct?

Thanks about board, highly appreciated, just like every info piece you provide!

He is right-handed, but I have to check with his family...


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Those gyutos are gone. Please, correct me if Im wrong. I get that both fkm and di require just a few strokes weekly and no rods basically, is that correct?
> 
> Thanks about board, highly appreciated, just like every info piece you provide!
> 
> He is right-handed, but I have to check with his family...


For careful home users that should do. A first full stone sharpening is needed, though. And keep it out of the hands of 'professional sharpeners', as they tend to use powered equipment that's likely to destroy the blade's heat treatment.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> For careful home users that should do. A first full stone sharpening is needed, though. And keep it out of the hands of 'professional sharpeners', as they tend to use powered equipment that's likely to destroy the blade's heat treatment.


Oh my, how will I do this full sharpening?...Is there ways I can do it - maybe take several stones, etc? What is a full sharpening?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Factory edges are poor and weak in the range we are speaking about.
A few strokes on a grinding wheel, some buffering, done. Often overheating. Done by the youngest apprentice who got the job because he is the boss' nephew, as a senior member here put it.
Traditionally Japanese knives left the factory unsharpened. The end-user put his own edge on it, or it was done for him by the retailer, at his costs.
With the export this is no longer acceptable. So, there is an edge. That's all you can say about it. The average consumer will hardly care, and if he does, he sharpens himself. No incentive for the maker to spend much time and money on it.
A full sharpening means getting rid of the factory edge, building a new one, after a bit of thinning behind the edge. It involves a coarse, a medium and a fine stone. 
That's why I referred to Korin's 'initial stone sharpening' as an interesting option.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Factory edges are poor and weak in the range we are speaking about.
> A few strokes on a grinding wheel, some buffering, done. Often overheating. Done by the youngest apprentice who got the job because he is the boss' nephew, as a senior member here put it.
> Traditionally Japanese knives left the factory unsharpened. The end-user put his own edge on it, or it was done for him by the retailer, at his costs.
> With the export this is no longer acceptable. So, there is an edge. That's all you can say about it. The average consumer will hardly care, and if he does, he sharpens himself. No incentive for the maker to spend much time and money on it.
> ...


I checked korin, theu dont have either jck or fujiwara...what would you offer? Buy three stones then? Around 1000, around 3000 and? Or these two must do for a regular user?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Korin offers all the Misono series, IIRC. 
For a first stone sharpening you should start with a coarse stone you haven't much use for afterwards, I'm afraid. I would start with a 320. That's the coarsest stone you may use before the 1k one. With an even coarser one you will need an intermediate stone before you can go to the medium one. 
The next stones, the 1 and 3k, are ones that you use for normal maintenance.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Korin offers all the Misono series, IIRC.
> For a first stone sharpening you should start with a coarse stone you haven't much use for afterwards, I'm afraid. I would start with a 320. That's the coarsest stone you may use before the 1k one. With an even coarser one you will need an intermediate stone before you can go to the medium one.
> The next stones, the 1 and 3k, are ones that you use for normal maintenance.


So, around 300, then 1k and then 3k or anything else in between, I do not quite get it?

And for weekly maintenance just the 3k or 1k and then 3k?
I will ask tomorrow which stones the guy already has..


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

For a first sharpening, I would suggest a progression of 320, 1k and 3k. By far the most work will be with the coarsest one.
For weekly maintenance, a few strokes on the 3k will do.
After some time, or if any damage has occurred, you won't get a smooth edge again with only a few strokes on the 3k. It's time for a full sharpening starting with the 1k.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> For a first sharpening, I would suggest a progression of 320, 1k and 3k. By far the most work will be with the coarsest one.
> For weekly maintenance, a few strokes on the 3k will do.
> After some time, or if any damage has occurred, you won't get a smooth edge again with only a few strokes on the 3k. It's time for a full sharpening starting with the 1k.


Benuser, thank you so much! I will try to obtain the photos of the stones we have . Other than that, I see that JCK has 400/1200, 1000/6000, 6000/10000, just 2000, just 6000 and just 8000.

Do I take 400/1200 +6000, 400/1200+2000 or 400/1200+1000/6000?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

I only mentioned the stones I would use. The figures aren't written in stone — pun intended. I don't know JCK's stones, but 400/1200 and 2k seem to cover your needs.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> I only mentioned the stones I would use. The figures aren't written in stone - pun intended. I don't know JCK's stones, but 400/1200 and 2k seem to cover your needs.


You are my main expert so far, so I trust your recommendations🙂

Thank you much! What about finer grits? Like 6000? Is it gonna be too much work with them?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

No need for such fine grits with double‐bevelled knives as used in Western cuisine. They can be useful or fun with carbon steel, though. With a lot of stainless they are even counterproductive.
And essential with single bevels.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Thank you much, you seem to be a professional indeed. Is your work connected with knives?

Now the question to anyone out there. We in Russia have customs limitations for knives with mire than 11 cm blade kength. JCK ships to Russia. Im afraid the parcel will be returned by customs or I will get some troubles myself. Has anyone tried to deliver to a country with such limitations? Did your parceks arrive? So far I saw someone from South Africa who managed to get the parcel inspite it is not easy for his country.

Also, is there any contact of JCK to ask to include the documents, etc? I saw here somebody said they dont have a mailbox for questions...


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

The owner of JCK, Mr Koki Iwahara, is very helpful and highly competent. 
Ask him. koki at kencrest.us


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> The owner of JCK, Mr Koki Iwahara, is very helpful and highly competent.


BENUSER, Thank you so much!!! Is there anything you dont know about the knives?)


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> BENUSER, Thank you so much!!! Is there anything you dont know about the knives?)


A lot. Don't ask me about traditional Japanese knives. Another section.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> A lot. Don't ask me about traditional Japanese knives. Another sec





benuser said:


> When speaking about easy maintenance: VG-10, the steel used in the Tojiro PRO as well in the DP series isn't the easiest to sharpen. When the user is a novice, expect serious difficulties in deburring VG-10. By the way, forget any other form of daily maintenance, especially with this steel type. No polished steel rod or ceramic one, as the⁹ steel is supposed to be maintained on stones, used in a progression of three ones. I do like the DP series, not just for their value: but I do like sharpening, but using three stones may be deterring to some. By the way, I don't see the advantage of a steel handle over a composite one.
> The MAC Professional series are far too expensive for what they offer. Decent knives, a bit on the heavy side, apparently meant for a public used to the big Germans. Otherwise I would call it common. At that price level you may get so much better.
> Have a look at japanesechefsknife.com and get an idea what is available at this price point.
> The Kanetsugu you're referring to has a core of VG-10 as well, and a convexed edge. Not sure how a new sharpener is going to maintain it, as a stone sharpening does normally establish a straight edge. No big deal to an experienced sharpener, whether he keeps the convexity or not, but a brean-teaser to anyone else. Apart from the edge, it comes with a Damascus pattern that doesn't contribute in any way to its performance, but makes maintenance problematic. Good sharpening involves thinning, as the edge comes in a slightly thicker part of the blade. There's a taper: a spine is 2-3mm thick, just behind the edge it's about 0.2mm. At 5mm from there thickness is 0.5mm. It's therefore good practice to start by thinning, or after a year or so the knife performs like an axe. This thinning will scratch the area right behind the bevel, and perhaps a bit further, due to stone slurry. No big deal with other knives, as you may very well polish it out. Not so with a Damascus. To restore its original appearance, you have to work on the entire blade with different grits of sandpaper in order to get an even result. After that, an aggressive corrosive substance is being applied to recover the contrast between the different steel types which makes the pattern. A huge task for a simple sharpening. Most Damascus blades look therefore horrible after half a year of use.
> ...





benuser said:


> A rod is especially problematic with VG-10 because of its tendency to create a wire edge - forget this technical point.
> If you're very careful, you may use a steel rod like the Dickoron Micro or Polish with any other steel, provided it isn't too hard. But it requires a very light touch. The same with a ceramic rod, that really removes a bit of fatigued steel. I would suggest the Sieger LongLife.
> Better use your finest stone for 'daily' (=weekly) maintenance, though. Less likely to do harm.





benuser said:


> Just to make sure: I should have asked whether your ex is right-handed. It's an important point as Japanese knives are optimised for use by right-handers. Left-handers are in the best case splendidly ignored.
> As for your question: I would go for the Deep Impact 240 gyuto, as it will require much less maintenance. Forget different rods, a few strokes on your finest stone will do for weeks of home use.
> About a board: have an edge grain one, no end grain. No bamboo. European birch is nice to the blade's edge. Wood species have different properties depending on their origin. I you buy an European made birch you're pretty sure local wood has been used. Expect it to cost €80-100.





benuser said:


> For careful home users that should do. A first full stone sharpening is needed, though. And keep it out of the hands of 'professional sharpeners', as they tend to use powered equipment that's likely to destroy the blade's heat treatment.





benuser said:


> Factory edges are poor and weak in the range we are speaking about.
> A few strokes on a grinding wheel, some buffering, done. Often overheating. Done by the youngest apprentice who got the job because he is the boss' nephew, as a senior member here put it.
> Traditionally Japanese knives left the factory unsharpened. The end-user put his own edge on it, or it was done for him by the retailer, at his costs.
> With the export this is no longer acceptable. So, there is an edge. That's all you can say about it. The average consumer will hardly care, and if he does, he sharpens himself. No incentive for the maker to spend much time and money on it.
> ...





benuser said:


> I only mentioned the stones I would use. The figures aren't written in stone - pun intended. I don't know JCK's stones, but 400/1200 and 2k seem to cover your needs.





benuser said:


> No need for such fine grits with double‐bevelled knives as used in Western cuisine. They can be useful or fun with carbon steel, though. With a lot of stainless they are even counterproductive.
> And essential with single bevels.





benuser said:


> The owner of JCK, Mr Koki Iwahara, is very helpful and highly competent.
> Ask him. koki at kencrest.us


Thank you soooooo much! Mr Iwahara san helped me with eveything! It seems our knives will travel by ship for up to 5 months)))) But we are not in a hurry, so plan to order.
Benuser, will you be able to understand from photo which approximate grit the stone has? I am going to force the man yo send me photo if his stones, he just keeps saying they are very usual)))

Sorry, so many quotes🤔


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

You're most welcome, Julia, my pleasure!
From pictures it's only possible if one actually knows the stone. There are only a few makers but tens of brands with even so much different series. Some are completely unknown in Europe and most familiar among Americans, and vice versa. Even when feeling with your nail it's hazardous. Looking at the scratch pattern it delivers gives an indication. Most stones have a grit number on their side. Different makers apply different grit systems, though, and don't strictly follow the Japanese Industrial Standard JIS, far from that. But let's give it a try. A stone may be familiar to other users.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

By the way, wondering a bit about someone telling these are very common stones without being able to inform you any further about brand, type or grit...


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> By the way, wondering a bit about someone telling these are very common stones without being able to inform you any further about brand, type or grit...


He doesnt know. I get it the stones are quite old and there no labels or anything like that. He is not a professional in this sphere. Not even an amateur.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

I they are prior to the nineties I guess they are SiC stones who are used for all kind of tools but wouldn't be appropriate for fine hard edges. In those days Japanese waterstones were unknown in Eastern Europe. Another possibility were natural stones for razors. Everywhere in the world you may find local ones, and until the half of the 20th century sharpening your own razor was perfectly common. Not very practical for sharpening kitchen knives either. Very slow, and meant to offer a smooth shave. Far too polished for cutting food, and unlikely to hold with board contact. But let us have a look at the pictures. Do you know where he uses the stones for?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> I they are prior to the nineties I guess they are SiC stones who are used for all kind of tools but wouldn't be appropriate for fine hard edges. In those days Japanese waterstones were unknown in Eastern Europe. Another possibility were natural stones for razors. Everywhere in the world you may find local ones, and until the half of the 20th century sharpening your own razor was perfectly common. Not very practical for sharpening kitchen knives either. Very slow, and meant to offer a smooth shave. Far too polished for cutting food, and unlikely to hold with board contact. But let us have a look at the pictures. Do you know where he uses the stones for?


No, but Im already very interested.) Obviously he used them for sharpening good but regular kitchen knives...Are you a knife historian?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> I they are prior to the nineties I guess they are SiC stones who are used for all kind of tools but wouldn't be appropriate for fine hard edges. In those days Japanese waterstones were unknown in Eastern Europe. Another possibility were natural stones for razors. Everywhere in the world you may find local ones, and until the half of the 20th century sharpening your own razor was perfectly common. Not very practical for sharpening kitchen knives either. Very slow, and meant to offer a smooth shave. Far too polished for cutting food, and unlikely to hold with board contact. But let us have a look at the pictures. Do you know where he uses the stones for?


What is SiC?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Sicium carbide, carborundum, the first synthetic sharpening stone. The material is the same as used in sandpaper. Stones are sometimes used for very coarse grits when the purpose is more to remove a lot of steel than delivering an even scratch pattern. Its use requires heavy pressure. Japanese waterstones have the advantage of freeing constantly fresh particles of the same size, and are available in much finer grits. They allow working with great precision. I sometimes use a SiC stone for removing a few millimetres from a fingerguard on a vintage blade and don't want to damage a waterstone. I will certainly not use it when the edge is involved.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> No, but Im already very interested.) Obviously he used them for sharpening good but regular kitchen knives...Are you a knife historian?


No, just old...
And like vintage knives.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Lets give a try))


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Sicium carbide, carborundum, the first synthetic sharpening stone. The material is the same as used in sandpaper. Stones are sometimes used for very coarse grits when the purpose is more to remove a lot of steel than delivering an even scratch pattern. Its use requires heavy pressure. Japanese waterstones have the advantage of freeing constantly fresh particles of the same size, and are available in much finer grits. They allow working with great precision. I sometimes use a SiC stone for removing a few millimetres from a fingerguard on a vintage blade and don't want to damage a waterstone. I will certainly not use it when the edge is involved.


How do they free particles?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> How do they free particles?


By abrasion, that's why huge pressure is required, at least with the ones I've tried.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Lets give a try))


Can't say much. Except for the object on the left. Seems to me the kind of gadget that's supposed to remove steel equally from both sides. It imposes one kind of symmetric edge, irrespective of the knife or the state it is in. It eats steel, leaving two ragged bevels behind. Keep good knives far away from it.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> No, just old...
> And like vintage knives.





benuser said:


> Can't say much. Except for the object on the left. Seems to me the kind of gadget that's supposed to remove steel equally from both sides. It imposes one kind of symmetric edge, irrespective of the knife or the state it is in. It eats steel, leaving two ragged bevels behind. Keep good knives far away from it.


So you wouldnt touch the knife with any of these?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

No, I wouldn't.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> No, I wouldn't.


So, almost there. Will be ordering today)))
Beuser, would you be so kind to share info about different wood for cutting boards? Yesterday I searched and found no birch..mostly oak, maple, gum tree, beech, etc.
Also interesting how the board can harm the blade)


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

My fault, Julia, I meant beech. Confounding German and English. 
Make sure it's European made, so it's most likely to be made of local wood. Species aren't exactly the same around the world. American ook for example is much harder than so called English oak, which is the same everywhere in Europe. 
Remember to look for end grain. It's made from small vertical pieces. Cuts into it tend to close over time, especially when the board is well-saturated with oil or wax. Cutting on an end grain will apply much less pressure on the blade's edge than with a cheaper edge grain. With the end grain, the woods fibers stand vertical. You don't cross them but cut in between. Imagine you were cutting through a toothbrush. With a horizontal cut, you encounter all fibers. With a vertical one hardly one.
End grain requires good craftsmanship. That's what you're paying for.

Now, why all this fuss?
Hard boards do dull edges. Some, as bamboo, contain silica, which is simply sand, and work as an abrasive. Imagine you were cutting on a piece of sandpaper. The end of the cutting edge has a thickness that's a tenth of a sheet of tin foil. It will soon get abraded.
Now, hardness. Some people use glass to cut on. Edges of soft steel will immediately roll. Not so with harder steel types, they don't roll, but chip. In either case, the won't cut any longer. 
In daily life, as a home user, the difference between a hard board and a reasonably soft one is in the need of touching-up the edge. Is it after one meal, or after a week. Very hard steel types may require even softer boards: not your case.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> My fault, Julia, I meant beech. Confounding German and English.
> Make sure it's European made, so it's most likely to be made of local wood. Species aren't exactly the same around the world. American ook for example is much harder than so called English oak, which is the same everywhere in Europe.
> Remember to look for end grain. It's made from small vertical pieces. Cuts into it tend to close over time, especially when the board is well-saturated with oil or wax. Cutting on an end grain will apply much less pressure on the blade's edge than with a cheaper edge grain. With the end grain, the woods fibers stand vertical. You don't cross them but cut in between. Imagine you were cutting through a toothbrush. With a horizontal cut, you encounter all fibers. With a vertical one hardly one.
> End grain requires good craftsmanship. That's what you're paying for.
> ...


Eeeehh, are you sure that end grain needed, not edge? In previous message you said edge grain...what you describe in this message still seems like an edge)

God, I said to the guy European birch with edge grain)))))) Will correct that


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Do.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Do.


?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Do.


So edge or end? Edge is with longitudal, end is with lateral


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> So edge or end? Edge is with longitudal, end is with lateral





JuliaG said:


> So edge or end? Edge is with longitudal, end is with lateral


No. End grain is with vertical fibers, edge grain with horizontal ones. Better have the first one, remember the toothbrush analogy.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

benuser said:


> No. End grain is with vertical fibers, edge grain with horizontal ones. Better have the first one, remember the toothbrush analogy.


End grain.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> End grain.


I cannot understand. On the photo its end on the upper part and edge on the side.

So you mean the surface should be end?

P.s. sorry for long answering. Thought my reply had been posted(


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

The photo was meant to show the vertical or standing wood fibers, and illustrate the toothbrush analogy.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)




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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> The photo was meant to show the vertical or standing wood fibers, and illustrate the toothbrush analogy.


Yes, this I understand and saw this picture. So, do I get it right that the board (the cutting surface) should be END grain? Like the upper part of the toothbrush?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Yes, this I understand and saw this picture. So, do I get it right that the board (the cutting surface) should be END grain? Like the upper part of the toothbrush?


Exactly.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Exactly.


Thank you much! 
Iwahara san cancelled the order today as all postal services are completely blocked now(((( even the ships...we will be waiting for them to start operating again. The story goes on...


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

You're most welcome, Julia. 
That's quite worrying, about cancelled post services. 
If the order were to revive, you might ask Mr Iwahara if he can organise a first stone sharpening of the knives. That would make further maintenance much simpler, and avoid you that first stage that isn't that simple.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Meanwhile, Chad Ward's An Edge in the Kitchen is still a great introduction.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> You're most welcome, Julia.
> That's quite worrying, about cancelled post services.
> If the order were to revive, you might ask Mr Iwahara if he can organise a first stone sharpening of the knives. That would make further maintenance much simpler, and avoid you that first stage that isn't that simple.


Brilliant idea, benuser!! I asked already, waiting for reply. But I will anyway need those three stones, right?

Thank for the book reference too! I will tell the man that if something I can look it up in the book.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> You're most welcome, Julia.
> That's quite worrying, about cancelled post services.
> If the order were to revive, you might ask Mr Iwahara if he can organise a first stone sharpening of the knives. That would make further maintenance much simpler, and avoid you that first stage that isn't that simple.


Too bad. The postal has been blocked for last 18 months....
Now the only way for us is to try and send directly from us or europe. Do you know any trusted shop over there? Delivery is not an issue, we will use forwarder services. Do you know anything about hocho-knife?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Or here?
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmse.html


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

I would first try to find out what exactly is the problem with getting stuff from Japan to Russia that made JCK cancel the order.
So you may know whether that is likely to happen with other retailers as well.
Mr Iwahara is well-known for helping his customers to avoid local taxation and is extremely inventive in finding new goat trails. So, if anyone is capable of getting stuff in any place, it's him. 
Get to know it before spending time with other retailers, and to find out eventually they can't deliver in Russia. 
My guess were it has to do with the impossibility to get the sending insured these days, due to the political tensions.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

CKTG doesn't send any longer to Europe. Shipping costs from the US have raised too much. They can't compete with direct sending from Japan.
hocho-knife.com is serious. Isn't as helpful and creative as JCK in avoiding local taxes. For us in Europe: import tax, local VAT, handling costs. I haven't checked if they send to Russia.
I just verified a few retailers in Europe, and they don't.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Too bad. The postal has been blocked for last 18 months....
> Now the only way for us is to try and send directly from us or europe. Do you know any trusted shop over there? Delivery is not an issue, we will use forwarder services. Do you know anything about hocho-knife?


Not sure I do understand. How do work delivery services? I know PayPal to require the delivery address to be the same as someone's home address. Same for credit card payments IIRC.


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Just thinking:
If they don't send to Russia, but forwarding is not a problem....
Then check where they send to in Europe and use an address there if you can


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Just checked their website and it is only Russia they don't ship to.
So any address outside Russia should do


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> I would first try to find out what exactly is the problem with getting stuff from Japan to Russia that made JCK cancel the order.
> So you may know whether that is likely to happen with other retailers as well.
> Mr Iwahara is well-known for helping his customers to avoid local taxation and is extremely inventive in finding new goat trails. So, if anyone is capable of getting stuff in any place, it's him.
> Get to know it before spending time with other retailers, and to find out eventually they can't deliver in Russia.
> My guess were it has to do with the impossibility to get the sending insured these days, due to the political tensions.


No its due to covid. At least he says so.

Whether others deliver to Russia or not is not important because I will use forwarder service which once already made agreement with the customs to transfer mac knives which we planned originally. So likely they would be able to do it for other knives as well. This forwarder can take the parcel from internet-shop on many warehouses across Europe and Us.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

But


benuser said:


> CKTG doesn't send any longer to Europe. Shipping costs from the US have raised too much. They can't compete with direct sending from Japan.
> hocho-knife.com is serious. Isn't as helpful and creative as JCK in avoiding local taxes. For us in Europe: import tax, local VAT, handling costs. I haven't checked if they send to Russia.
> I just verified a few retailers in Europe, and they don't.


Is GKTG also good? Shipping is not a problem because it will be on forwarder and quite reasonable. Also taxes no problem. The sum we are talking about is not tax applicable. Anyway its not gonna be much. I wonder if I can trust the fujiwara knives from CKTG.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Not sure I do understand. How do work delivery services? I know PayPal to require the delivery address to be the same as someone's home address. Same for credit card payments





butzy said:


> Just thinking:
> If they don't send to Russia, but forwarding is not a problem....
> Then check where they send to in Europe and use an address there if you can


The address in europe or us is given to you by the forwarder. Billing and shipping is same. From my real details there is only the CC and so far I only yesterday had first problem with what you are talking about for several years. The comany managed to withdraw the sum only removing the address, still they did. And I never use paypal, just CC


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

butzy said:


> Just checked their website and it is only Russia they don't ship to.
> So any address outside Russia should do


Whose? Jck??


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

JuliaG said:


> Whose? Jck??


They said to me they cannot send to Europe too, as far as I understand, but I will check.
By the way, the prices of CKTG are really good and they have these FKM. Can I be sure its original product? Also need to do smth with sharpening..how probable is it that the knives come blunt? Or does it mostly matter for professionals and not casual?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

So far the best option for me seems CKTG, send to the US and then by forwarder here. They have really good prices now. I wonder if they akways have discounts or only these days??


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> So far the best option for me seems CKTG, send to the US and then by forwarder here. They have really good prices now. I wonder if they akways have discounts or only these days??


From what I understand from other members of kitchenknifeforums.com their prices are sharp, their return policy poor. In case of troubles they use to refer to the maker, which would be unacceptable from an European legal point of view.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> They said to me they cannot send to Europe too, as far as I understand, but I will check.
> By the way, the prices of CKTG are really good and they have these FKM. Can I be sure its original product? Also need to do smth with sharpening..how probable is it that the knives come blunt? Or does it mostly matter for professionals and not casual?


Surprise. My last order with JCK was December 8th. I got it the 11th. I live in the Netherlands. 
No, they certainly don't come blunt, but in this price range you should expect the factory edge to be weak. Best thing to do is to give it a first stone sharpening before use.
Quite sure CKTG do offer a - paid -stone sharpening before sending. They don't send to Europe IIRC. By the way, sending from the US to Europe is very expensive, and on arrival in Europe import tax, local VAT and handling costs will be charged.
JCK manages to keep these costs when sending from Japan to Europe very, very low.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> From what I understand from other members of kitchenknifeforums.com their prices are sharp, their return policy poor. In case of troubles they use to refer to the maker, which would be unacceptable from an European legal point of view.





benuser said:


> Surprise. My last order with JCK was December 8th. I got it the 11th. I live in the Netherlands.
> No, they certainly don't come blunt, but in this price range you should expect the factory edge to be weak. Best thing to do is to give it a first stone sharpening before use.
> Quite sure CKTG do offer a - paid -stone sharpening before sending. They don't send to Europe IIRC. By the way, sending from the US to Europe is very expensive, and on arrival in Europe import tax, local VAT and handling costs will be charged.
> JCK manages to keep these costs when sending from Japan to Europe very, very low.


Thank you, benuser, very valuable info as always. Then id better try to figure out with jck. Maybe in dec it was not so strict with covid here, otherwise I do not understand why they keep telling they are not sending to Europe either. If my understanding is correct. Will clarify that. Especially taking into acc they agreed to sharpen with Fujiwara. Though I did mention that its gonna be at my own cost.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Surprise. My last order with JCK was December 8th. I got it the 11th. I live in the Netherlands.
> No, they certainly don't come blunt, but in this price range you should expect the factory edge to be weak. Best thing to do is to give it a first stone sharpening before use.
> Quite sure CKTG do offer a - paid -stone sharpening before sending. They don't send to Europe IIRC. By the way, sending from the US to Europe is very expensive, and on arrival in Europe import tax, local VAT and handling costs will be charged.
> JCK manages to keep these costs when sending from Japan to Europe very, very low.


Cool! They confirmed they can ship to Europe!!! Thank you so much!! Obviously he meant that covid is spreading in Europe and in all bunch of phrased I thought they couldnt send there either. So last thing seems to get approval from the forwarder for knives transfer. Meanwhile Im trying to organise that sharpening.

By the way, if we chose CKTG, we wouldnt need send from us to Europe: the forwarder has offices in us as well. So from there they would go directly here.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Are you saying it took your jck order three days only????


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Are you saying it took your jck order three days only????


Just verified. I ordered December 8th, 06.37 CET, my local time, and have confirmed reception on Saturday 11th at 14.08. FedEx. Not bad, isn't it?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Just verified. I ordered December 8th, 06.37 CET, my local time, and have confirmed reception on Saturday 11th at 14.08. FedEx. Not bad, isn't it?


Wow!!


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Yes
Here, scroll down to text in red and orange
https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/shipping


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

butzy said:


> Yes
> Here, scroll down to text in red and orange
> http://[URL]https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/shipping


😂😂😂 I didnt realize benuser and you are two different people)))


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Hi guys, this is the short update! Finally I got the forwarder agree with their customs staff on knives importing! Now Iwahara san will send them off to Fujiwara Kanefusa for sharoening which will be 10% from the price. Then he will give us free delivery to Europe. Getting there, gentlemen!😉


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

P.S. will send for sharpening knives, not forwarder staff😂😂


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Where do I send :
Japan - US - Russia
Or

Japan-EU-Russia?


In terms of taxes


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

See, the problem is that I have to provide the forwarder with links to the products on jck website, I have to put values, etc. Normally i buy either in Europe, and through office of our Russian forwarder in Europe transfer it here, or in US and from the office of our Russian forwarder in US, thansfer it here. I never tried to go from other countries then bring to the firwarder office either in EU or US and then here. I cant figure out which taxes will apply...Forwarder is over loaded and is very slow to answer these days..


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Americans will be able to tell you whether they have to deal with any taxes when importing from Japan. 
In Europe, we do. Local VAT, varying from one country to another but around 20%, 8.5% import tax on the value and shipping, and handling costs.
Some retailers may declare a low, sometimes very low value, and customs' officers may believe them or not. If not, they will ignore the declared value and ask the recipient for the proof of payment and block meanwhile the entry.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Will be waiting for americans then.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Hi guys,

A quick update. Finally we seem to have settled down everything, we will ship the knives through LA)))) 

Now the question. The knives are on their way to Honba-duke sharpening. I read in the internet people say they ordered such thing from JCK and the knives arrived sharp but completely scratched and even some kazumi pattern (not sure about the spelling) was destroyed. And it happened not once... What do youvthink? Im really worried. Plus I asked them to make the knives really sharp because the person for whom they are intended us not experienced in this and will be disappointed to get blunt knives out of the box...


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

You have ordered them already so I wouldn't worry.
Just wait till you get them 
The majority of people do not write reviews....


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

butzy said:


> You have ordered them already so I wouldn't worry.
> Just wait till you get them
> The majority of people do not write reviews....





butzy said:


> You have ordered them already so I wouldn't worry.
> Just wait till you get them
> The majority of people do not write reviews....


They are being prepared for sharpening. I asked JCK to control this...


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Don't worry. JCK are very serious. Some clients are not. It is absolutely impossible to afford a good sharpening and leave the knife totally pristine. But here it sounds more that a client was looking for some undue compensation.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> A quick update. Finally we seem to have settled down everything, we will ship the knives through LA))))
> 
> Now the question. The knives are on their way to Honba-duke sharpening. I read in the internet people say they ordered such thing from JCK and the knives arrived sharp but completely scratched and even some kazumi pattern (not sure about the spelling) was destroyed. And it happened not once... What do youvthink? Im really worried. Plus I asked them to make the knives really sharp because the person for whom they are intended us not experienced in this and will be disappointed to get blunt knives out of the box...


Well, that was exactly why you have been asking for a first stone sharpening. Most clients will hardly care how the blade comes out of the box, as the first thing they do is to sharpen it themselves.
Not in this case. No chance the blade will come blunt out of the stone sharpening!


----------



## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Don't worry. JCK are very serious. Some clients are not. It is absolutely impossible to afford a good sharpening and leave the knife totally pristine. But here it sounds more that a client was looking for some undue compensation.


Hi, glad to see you. All right. But the blade wont be scratched, will it?


----------



## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

JuliaG said:


> Hi, glad to see you. All right. But the blade wont be scratched, will it?


I mean not to the extent where the customer will get disappointed with the looks.


----------



## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> I mean not to the extent where the customer will get disappointed with the looks.


Couldn't agree more. I have no detailed photos of any brand new knife right out of the box and ones of the same after a first full sharpening. But JCK does have a series of knives that are standard delivered with a first stone sharpening. Here their photos, and they are absolutely realistic - I know these knives and have seen them right out of the box.The stone's mudd creates some haze behind the bevel.














Don't ask how such detailed photos look after sharpening by an average home user, on only use for a few days in a home kitchen.


----------



## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Couldn't agree more. I have no detailed photos of any brand new knife right out of the box and ones of the same after a first full sharpening. But JCK does have a series of knives that are standard delivered with a first stone sharpening. Here their photos, and they are absolutely realistic - I know these knives and have seen them right out of the box.The stone's mudd creates some haze behind the bevel.
> View attachment 71528
> View attachment 71529
> Don't ask how such detailed photos look after sharpening by an average home user, on only use for a few days in a home kitchen.


Thank you much. In my opinion, they look brilliant. That haze that comes from the mud, is it real mud that has to be washed off? I mean should we expect this..


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Couldn't agree more. I have no detailed photos of any brand new knife right out of the box and ones of the same after a first full sharpening. But JCK does have a series of knives that are standard delivered with a first stone sharpening. Here their photos, and they are absolutely realistic - I know these knives and have seen them right out of the box.The stone's mudd creates some haze behind the bevel.
> View attachment 71528
> View attachment 71529
> Don't ask how such detailed photos look after sharpening by an average home user, on only use for a few days in a home kitchen.


These look like Fujiwara knives, btw, are they?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Thank you much. In my opinion, they look brilliant. That haze that comes from the mud, is it real mud that has to be washed off? I mean should we expect this..


The mud from the stone creates a haze of fine scratches. You cannot avoid it when sharpening at a low angle. There is no direct contact with the stone, only a light one with the mud laying on the stone. After washing off the mud the haze remains. Sometimes, for others I polish it away. The risk is to create a new haze higher on the blade, with a lot of contrast with the polished part.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> These look like Fujiwara knives, btw, are they?


No. JCK Kagayaki Blue#2. Not my favourites. Too thick behind the edge, and problems with the Heat Treatment: coarse grain and high brittleness.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

Thanks much!🙂


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

By the way, which knife rest would you recommend for this type of knives?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> No. JCK Kagayaki Blue#2. Not my favourites. Too thick behind the edge, and problems with the Heat Treatment: coarse grain and high brittleness.


Also, where do you buy your cutting boards? That one, with end grain, made of european beech😉 Do I buy one treated with mineral oil or treat it myself?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> By the way, which knife rest would you recommend for this type of knives?


Sorry Julia, what do you mean by knife rest?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Also, where do you buy your cutting boards? That one, with end grain, made of european beech😉 Do I buy one treated with mineral oil or treat it myself?


The ones I bought were already fully saturated - as they should be. Bought with German and French Amazon.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> The ones I bought were already fully saturated - as they should be. Bought with German and French Amazon.


Which brands?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Sorry Julia, what do you mean by knife rest?


Its a place where you put your knives when they are not in use. By the way, are those magnolia covers or any blade covers are of any use?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Those Japanese, sayas, are fine for transport, not much otherwise, as they don't stabilise humidity fluctuations. I would avoid above all knife guards with a felt lining: once it gets moist — and that will somehow happen — it will keep it and cause rust. Better make you own one with card board and duct tape.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Which brands?


The European Oak one was more saturated, the beech has a finer structure but requires more soaking in food safe mineral oil. With the knives you're going to use the first one is no problem at all.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Those Japanese, sayas, are fine for transport, not much otherwise, as they don't stabilise humidity fluctuations. I would avoid above all knife guards with a felt lining: once it gets moist - and that will somehow happen - it will keep it and cause rust. Better make you own one with card board and duct tape.


I see. What about the knife rest then? It can be magnetic or with holes for knives to be inserted in.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> The European Oak one was more saturated, the beech has a finer structure but requires more soaking in food safe mineral oil. With the knives you're going to use the first one is no problem at all.
> View attachment 71533
> View attachment 71534


So the oak is fine too?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

JuliaG said:


> So the oak is fine too?


Do you buy the oil for home treatment to the board too?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

See, the price difference is huge. What is the difference between the boards?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

European oak is fine when your blades aren't extremely hard, which isn't your case. No risk of chipping. American oak is much harder. A lot of boards are from Asia — Indonesia, especially — and you won't be sure about the used species.
With end grain the quality of the handwork will be essential. Good soaking will cost as well. I've no idea what the second board is like. No way a decent end grain can be produced in Europe at that price.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> European oak is fine when your blades aren't extremely hard, which isn't your case. No risk of chipping. American oak is much harder. A lot of boards are from Asia - Indonesia, especially - and you won't be sure about the used species.
> With end grain the quality of the handwork will be essential. Good soaking will cost as well. I've no idea what the second board is like. No way a decent end grain can be produced in Europe at that price.


I see. Why are you ignoring the knives rest question?)))


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> I see. Why are you ignoring the knives rest question?)))


Post in thread 'Forgiving, easy care, mid to high price Japanese knife' https://cheftalk.com/threads/forgiving-easy-care-mid-to-high-price-japanese-knife.112472/post-624450


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

benuser said:


> Those Japanese, sayas, are fine for transport, not much otherwise, as they don't stabilise humidity fluctuations. I would avoid above all knife guards with a felt lining: once it gets moist - and that will somehow happen - it will keep it and cause rust. Better make you own one with card board and duct tape.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

😂😂😂 I think we are talking about different things. Where and how do you store your knives in the kitchen?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

In a drawer, packed in a card board saya.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> In a drawer, packed in a card board saya.


Ah, I see...


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

All you want is to protect the edge. Card board stabilises humidity in the air.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> All you want is to protect the edge. Card board stabilises humidity in the air.
> View attachment 71567


Cool craft!))
What do you think of magnetic knife stands, by the way. And alao by the way, when sharpening with japanese stones, do I need water?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Cool craft!))
> What do you think of magnetic knife stands, by the way. And alao by the way, when sharpening with japanese stones, do I need water?


Magnetic stands are only to be considered if there's no direct contact between the blade and the magnet, or corrosion will certainly occur. It requires very good craftsmanship. The magnet has to be very strong to hold say a cleaver. Now, imagine you taking a light weight blade with the force that requires. You're likely to break the handle at the bolster or virole if any. I know it looks great but there are no stands who fit for all your knives. I wouldn't know how to find out whether one holds my 430g Suien cleaver, 270mm 282g Masamoto HC gyuto and isn't too strong for my 20g little Herder, or a vintage Nogent petty, whose handles won't make any chance to survive.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Cool craft!))
> What do you think of magnetic knife stands, by the way. And alao by the way, when sharpening with japanese stones, do I need water?


Yes, Japanese whetstones do require water. With some other stones use of oil is an option, not so with the Japanese ones. The water frees fresh particles and hinders to some extend clogging, i.e. the filling of the stone by steel particles by which the abrasion stops.
Depending on the type of stone, they require soaking before use, or can be used immediately after application of a bit of water, the so-called Splash&Go.
The last ones get damaged if soaked.
During the sharpening, you add fresh water to have the process going on. At the end, you rinse the stone to clean it from the mix of stone mud and steel particles and let it quietly dry in a place away from heating or draught.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Magnetic stands are only to be considered if there's no direct contact between the blade and the magnet, or corrosion will certainly occur. It requires very good craftsmanship. The magnet has to be very strong to hold say a cleaver. Now, imagine you taking a light weight blade with the force that requires. You're likely to break the handle at the bolster or virole if any. I know it looks great but there are no stands who fit for all your knives. I wouldn't know how to find out whether one holds my 430g Suien cleaver, 270mm 282g Masamoto HC gyuto and isn't too strong for my 20g little Herder, or a vintage Nogent petty, whose handles won't make any chance to survive.





benuser said:


> Yes, Japanese whetstones do require water. With some other stones use of oil is an option, not so with the Japanese ones. The water frees fresh particles and hinders to some extend clogging, i.e. the filling of the stone by steel particles by which the abrasion stops.
> Depending on the type of stone, they require soaking before use, or can be used immediately after application of a bit of water, the so-called Splash&Go.
> The last ones get damaged if soaked.
> During the sharpening, you add fresh water to have the process going on. At the end, you rinse the stone to clean it from the mix of stone mud and steel particles and let it quietly dry in a place away from heating or draught.


Benuser! If this website had a possibility for adding three "likes", I would do it! It is a complete and ready university lection! Fantastic knowledge and expertise! Thanks you soooo much!!

The magnetic stand part made me laugh really much because I can imagine the one trying to take off small knives as you described😆😆😆 Definitely not smth we want after all this mess with knives buying😆. Now I wonder why the japanese knives shops use these magnets, I see them often on many photos..

Do you know about JCK stones - whether they require soaking or splash? What is the waterstone is used with no water at all?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Thank you for your kind words, but it's all common knowledge with a few prejudices as a personal touch. 
Those magnetic stands may make sense for a collector with 15 gyutos for example. Have seen them in some pro-kitchens where everybody puts his own, most used knives — say, a chef's and a slicer, or two chef's — on it. Otherwise, perhaps to impress the neighbours?
Have no experience or knowledge about the JCK stones. In Japan there are only a few makers, selling all numerous series under different brands. I wouldn't worry when buying with Mr Iwahara. Some JCK stones are soakers, some are Splash&Go. The 1000/4000 is a Splash&Go, the 2000 a soaker. It shouldn't determine your choice. It's only important not to soak a Splash&Go. 
For you, the first question were whether you are going to use them with other, likely neglected and thickened knives or only with the new ones. In the last case you may consider a one and only 2000, because your knives already come with a first sharpening, and this stainless doesn't win that much with high grits. If you're prepared not to wait until the knife is really blunt and act in time a single 2000 would be a good option with these knives. A 1000/4000 combination is a bit tricky. Most novices find it hard to work with a 4000. It requires a really light touch, as there's already an edge, which is likely to get crushed if you apply the same pressure as you're likely to do with the first stone — which is perfectly fine as a bit of steel has to get removed. Not so with the next stone. A very common complaint by new sharpeners is that after the first stone the edge was sharp, after the second one is was blunt again. The edge was simply crushed.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

The discussion of magnetic holders was humorous but perhaps too harsh. They are actually very convenient and easy to use. Fragging the knife on the mount could lead to scratches. Rolling the knife toward its spine releases the knife easily. I mount many of my knives "upside down" to resist any unconscious urge to just grab and slide. Corrosion… never experienced that but might be a concern with carbon blades not properly dried. Or maybe in high-humidity climates.

And, yes… great for impressing neighbors and guests. Only problem I ever experienced was when the housekeeper once used a chef knife to pry open a bottle, bending a knife tip.

Sayas, knife guards, and knife bags are great for storage and transportation but I find them inconvenient when needing a knife during prep or cooking.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> Thank you for your kind words, but it's all common knowledge with a few prejudices as a personal touch.
> Those magnetic stands may make sense for a collector with 15 gyutos for example. Have seen them in some pro-kitchens where everybody puts his own, most used knives - say, a chef's and a slicer, or two chef's - on it. Otherwise, perhaps to impress the neighbours?
> Have no experience or knowledge about the JCK stones. In Japan there are only a few makers, selling all numerous series under different brands. I wouldn't worry when buying with Mr Iwahara. Some JCK stones are soakers, some are Splash&Go. The 1000/4000 is a Splash&Go, the 2000 a soaker. It shouldn't determine your choice. It's only important not to soak a Splash&Go.
> For you, the first question were whether you are going to use them with other, likely neglected and thickened knives or only with the new ones. In the last case you may consider a one and only 2000, because your knives already come with a first sharpening, and this stainless doesn't win that much with high grits. If you're prepared not to wait until the knife is really blunt and act in time a single 2000 would be a good option with these knives. A 1000/4000 combination is a bit tricky. Most novices find it hard to work with a 4000. It requires a really light touch, as there's already an edge, which is likely to get crushed if you apply the same pressure as you're likely to do with the first stone - which is perfectly fine as a bit of steel has to get removed. Not so with the next stone. A very common complaint by new sharpeners is that after the first stone the edge was sharp, after the second one is was blunt again. The edge was simply crushed.


Not only knowledge matters but also how ready the person is to share it and explain everything in such details that you do. Plus, your knowledge is really deep which is not so often met. Whatever I ask, you have a university lecture prepared👍

About stones. I bought 400/1200 and 2000. Is the first one splash and go? Do I get it right that if a person wants to take good care for initially factory sharpened knives he is to use 2000 once a week appr? Still he may need those 400/1200 after, say, a year?


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

brianshaw said:


> The discussion of magnetic holders was humorous but perhaps too harsh. They are actually very convenient and easy to use. Fragging the knife on the mount could lead to scratches. Rolling the knife toward its spine releases the knife easily. I mount many of my knives "upside down" to resist any unconscious urge to just grab and slide. Corrosion… never experienced that but might be a concern with carbon blades not properly dried. Or maybe in high-humidity climates.
> 
> And, yes… great for impressing neighbors and guests. Only problem I ever experienced was when the housekeeper once used a chef knife to pry open a bottle, bending a knife tip.
> 
> ...


The discussion was based on Benuser 's personal, obviously very vast, experience, opinions always differ. As for us, we prefer to stay on the safe side because the guy would be very disappointed if he accidentally damages the knife. But your information is also very valuable and appreciated! I will keep in mind that if smth - the magnetics are not so dangerous if used properly. Very good looking knife stand you have! And I laughed a lot at the story with the housekeer. Its like a cleaner unplugging the devices in the intensive therapy because they need to plug in the vacuum cleaner. Good that your housekeeper didnt decide to open a metal can, say, with squids, with the gyuto knife))))))))


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> Not only knowledge matters but also how ready the person is to share it and explain everything in such details that you do. Plus, your knowledge is really deep which is not so often met. Whatever I ask, you have a university lecture prepared👍
> 
> About stones. I bought 400/1200 and 2000. Is the first one splash and go? Do I get it right that if a person wants to take good care for initially factory sharpened knives he is to use 2000 once a week appr? Still he may need those 400/1200 after, say, a year?


A combination of 400/1200 and 2000 is a rather comfortable one. The first one is a soaker. You will easily find out what fits you as a sharpening routine. 2000 alone or 1200 + 2000. What you described as the need to go from time to time to a coarser grit is true, but not of immediate concern. 
I know it from much finer grits. If I can maintain some knives with a very fine grit - say 8000 - for a very long time, at some moment I will have to get lower and even much lower. Has to do with steel fatigue.
I don't think that is that likely to occur with your type of steel when maintained at 2000.
Someday indeed your knife will require correction of profile and geometry, a bit depending on how you have performed its weekly maintenance. Or a little accident may occur. A medium-coarse like a 400 than is most welcome. But I wouldn't suggest a beginning sharpener to start with a 400.
Now, how often? 
The classic answer is: it depends. 
In some cultures rock-chopping is the standard. Pumping out of the shoulder. 
The classic French motion is forward slicing. 'Guillotine and glide' is the term used by one of the seniors on this forum.
Much less board contact. 
And some use a lot of push-cutting. A strictly vertical motion.
Edge retention greatly depends on the board contact. Another factor is the quality of the edge. A fat blade will require more force to get through the food, and result in a harder board contact. An edge that's thin behind the very edge combined with a conservative final edge still is very performant and will live much longer. Another factor: food. Sandy leaks will destroy any edge.
A home user can restore an edge with only a few strokes on his finest stone for a very long time. A full sharpening, starting with a coarse stone and thin a bit behind the edge to start with, will happen only a few times a year.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> A combination of 400/1200 and 2000 is a rather comfortable one. The first one is a soaker. You will easily find out what fits you as a sharpening routine. 2000 alone or 1200 + 2000. What you described as the need to go from time to time to a coarser grit is true, but not of immediate concern.
> I know it from much finer grits. If I can maintain some knives with a very fine grit - say 8000 - for a very long time, at some moment I will have to get lower and even much lower. Has to do with steel fatigue.
> I don't think that is that likely to occur with your type of steel when maintained at 2000.
> Someday indeed your knife will require correction of profile and geometry, a bit depending on how you have performed its weekly maintenance. Or a little accident may occur. A medium-coarse like a 400 than is most welcome. But I wouldn't suggest a beginning sharpener to start with a 400.
> ...


I see, thank you so much! Iwahara san told me I need to soak the stones until the bubbles disappear. How often should I repeat it? I mean to soak after every strike or from tine to time or just once during the sharpening?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

You soak only once before every sharpening session. During sharpening you add a bit of water when the stone is getting dryer. That's when the slurry is getting thicker.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

benuser said:


> You soak only once before every sharpening session. During sharpening you add a bit of water when the stone is getting dryer. That's when the slurry is getting thicker.


Bernard, the guy is interested in magnetic strands and got upset that its not a good option. Any additional arguments against or for?

I invite other users to express their opinions on magnetic stand as well, please, participate.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Now might be a good time to consider human behavior rather than logic. Perhaps “the guy” is growing weary of indecision and being led like a blind man by random internet experts, no matter how much they know. Perhaps “the guy” just wants his knowledge, experience, and desires to be given credibility. “The guy” sounds very frustrated.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

brianshaw said:


> Now might be a good time to consider human behavior rather than logic. Perhaps "the guy" is growing weary of indecision and being led like a blind man by random internet experts, no matter how much they know. Perhaps "the guy" just wants his knowledge, experience, and desires to be given credibility. "The guy" sounds very frustrated.


Its a good time to get rid of emotions and just make best possible decision on which way of keeping is better. The guy, whatever frustrated he is, if any, will be more than happy. He trusts me and my particularity. So Im trying to do my best.

Small addition. These three knives are going to be used everyday on the kitchen for regular food preparation. So they must be easily taken and put back.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok… I’ll bite my tongue on the topic of relationships and respect. 

So you’ve heard two different discussions on magnetic knife holders. What additional information do you need to enhance your current knowledge and facilitate your decision. No matter what you choose now you can, and most likely will, change in the future so don’t take it as a permanent decision.


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## JuliaG (Jan 7, 2022)

brianshaw said:


> Ok… I'll bite my tongue on the topic of relationships and respect.
> 
> So you've heard two different discussions on magnetic knife holders. What additional information do you need to enhance your current knowledge and facilitate your decision. No matter what you choose now you can, and most likely will, change in the future so don't take it as a permanent decision.


In order to speak about relationships and respect, you need to have full information, rather than selectively abstracting and making global conclusions from a tiny piece of information. Otherwise lets just keep technical. If you have nothing to add, then dont🙂


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

JuliaG said:


> In order to speak about relationships and respect, you need to have full information, rather than selectively abstracting and making global conclusions from a tiny piece of information. Otherwise lets just keep technical. If you have nothing to add, then dont🙂


Bye


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

JuliaG said:


> I invite other users to express their opinions on magnetic stand as well, please, participate.





JuliaG said:


> lets just keep technical.


Not sure where to go from here...


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