# Knives help. :)



## yori96 (Oct 22, 2016)

Hey guys and gals, just at a trade show and getting an itch for a a good set of knives for my house, it's one of the few things I haven't managed to get yet for my house and I want one now. I'm at a trade show and there is a booth here with Rhineland Cutlery as well as another booth with keramikos and I'm wondering the actual difference ect. Obviously they'll attempt to sell me on anything but I want experienced responses please.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Just ignore them.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Try them both and learn something for yourself. Ask and they'll let you try them. Listening to other folks opinion is good but first-hand experience help discern between useful information and rumor (or truth versus malarkey).


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

lol

You might learn how slick marketers and sales folk operate in general, but nothing much else here as you have no experience to gauge knife performance by.

Read through some recent posts, maybe even do a search for "knife sets." That way you will actually learn something, even if it's just:

"I don't care about knife performance, I just want those slick looking (and terrible) ergo handles sticking up like candles on a big birthday cake!"






Every horse has a rider.


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## yori96 (Oct 22, 2016)

I have tried the knives, they work better than knives I have but why would I waste money, I'm looking for help lol the kamiko ones even cut bread nice. And they all do tomatoes nice.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

What knives do you have?
What price range are these ones at the trade show?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

yori96 said:


> I have tried the knives, they work better than knives I have but why would I waste money, I'm looking for help lol the kamiko ones even cut bread nice. And they all do tomatoes nice.


Well then.. You need to know your real goal and requirements. Do you just want to beat your current knives or are you looking forward to being a knife geek with the best knives? There are a zillion options in between.

A little more info on your needs and wants will be useful. But in general I agree... Keep walking and consider other options. But if these are what suits you, get a bargain price if possible a cook some yummy food.

Every rider has a horse! [emoji]128516[/emoji]


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

How are you maintaining your knives? You can make


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## yori96 (Oct 22, 2016)

I can get the keramikos 5 piece plus two piece plus cleaver for 399 or the full set in the video that Rick posted for 1050.

I don't know what I want out of a knife set. I enjoy cooking, I don't like struggling with chopping or peeling. 

I also don't know the first thing about sharpening kNives.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

There is nothing about not struggling with chopping or peeling that costs $1000 bucks. In a few weeks to months to a year of use, dull knives are going to be dull no matter what you spent
Clearly establish your needs first


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## yori96 (Oct 22, 2016)

foody518 said:


> There is nothing about not struggling with chopping or peeling that costs $1000 bucks. In a few weeks to months to a year of use, dull knives are going to be dull no matter what you spent
> Clearly establish your needs first


I would like a good quality knife(s) that are easy to sharpen and maintain that will stay well if taken care of and can do fruit vegetables meat and everything else really well.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You really only need a few knives: chef, utility and paring. Plus maybe a bread knife. It sounds like you want sharp without the fuss. Can't blame you; a lot of folks want just that.

The Keramikos are ceramic, aren't they? If so, a couple of those might meet your needs. Ceramic blades stay sharp for long time. Only risk is breakage if dropped. Sharpening is almost never needed. 

My child uses ceramic knives (different brand) and gets along just fine. When I use them I get along just fine too. 

But don't spend $1000... That's just not necessary.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Get $30-100 worth of stones for your steel knives...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Aahchuuwah - cough, cough, hchchch-ech.  Excuse me.

So Yori, I assume here that you would like to know if you should make one of these 2 outlays of what can only be considered here as serious cash (though of course we would be delighted to help you spend this and more). My vote is a no. Having been around here for a while and seen some folk make similar choices I tell you  it can lead to a pathelogical level of doublethink (concurrently holding to completely contradictory opinons), a disregard for facts in general, and a sense of insecurity that demands the same irrational be adopted by others.  It isn't pretty, and recent examples can be cited.  Serious stuff.

But back to the choices.  For about $250 you can get similar type and number of ceramic knives on Amazon.  And unless that study of a multi-tiered candle studded birthday cake is something you just can't resist, for considerably less than the $1K+ you could have some outstanding examples of cutting wonderfulness, and maintenance accessories, instead of what are in actuality just very unexceptional German stainless.

The ceramic knives will cut unexceptionally but, perhaps for your current needs, adequately for a year or 2, perhaps even longer if you're real careful with them.  Very much preferable to that would be a few NSF knives as foody518 mentioned, along with a Chef's Choice electric sharpener.  I generally wouldn't recommend spending real money on knives that will be run through an electric, but it is your money and it certainly isn't a crime to do.  You can have at least as much fun grinding a good knife to hell on an electric as a cheap one.

When you get down to it sharpening by hand is just scraping steel on stone, different only from a typical electric in that you need to do a little more in the way of control, and get much much better results for the effort.  We could help you in that direction also, again it matters what sort of results you are looking for.


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## yori96 (Oct 22, 2016)

> Originally Posted by Rick Alan View Post
> 
> Aahchuuwah - cough, cough, hchchch-ech. Excuse me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, so you wouldn't recommend either which is good, you seem to be knowledgeable in what I'm asking, what's a NSF knife?

So the german stuff they are selling is not a good quality metal?

Yeah I'm not looking for anything insane ultra professional, just want to do the job at home.

Yes the keramikos are ceramic, the guy said dishwashers and obviously dropping them are really the only things that can super damage ceramic.

How do you sharpen ceramic?

I would just get the stones for my knifes but I don't really have anything that I would call a knife lol. Got along with basics for the entire time. Cheap steak knives and that's about it.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

One generally does not sharpen ceramic knives. There are services that can sharpen them but it is not often needed.

But sharpeners are available:

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=KCDS50


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

With a typical whetstone you can sharpen any non-serrated steel knife. Concavities can be done but not that easily. And maintaining the knife over time, keeping the geometry and profile in check, exposing fresh steel at the edge...these are the things that make it so you're getting your money's worth of more than just the initial edge that you bought the knife with.

NSF is a sanitation certification mainly having to do with particular handle materials that are good to use in prof kitchens. Some are better than others. By and large the typical NSF knives are cheap soft stainless knives, can be bought in bulk without breaking the bank. Thinned behind the edge a bit and freshly sharpened, they can be made to breeze through tomatoes and the like, at least for a little while. Just showing that you can do good things even to a cheap knife with good maintenance tools.

I don't know what developments have been made in ceramic knife production that make for a huge difference in quality of the price range of what you found vs the much cheaper ceramic knives one usually finds...but either way personally I wouldn't go that route. A recent experience with them found that they can micro-chip at the edge like steel does and they aren't even that thin behind the edge (maybe concerns with durability?), making cutting carrots a particularly unenjoyable exercise.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Well ... if you've just gotta have a ceramic knife ... get this:






You can get them for less than $20 ... and the peeler is really decent. NO ... don't cut bones and other hard things with it. It will break. I'm only showing you this if you've just gotta have a ceramic knife.

NO ... I don't sell these. It's just that it's only $20 and you get a decent peeler and that other thing, the slicer in the video.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I do have a feel for where you're coming from, but not at all sure yet exactly where it's all going to wind up.  Though to answer your 2 main knife questions:

Just about everybody has an example of German Stainless in their kitchen.  In terms of volume it is a giant in the cutlery industry.  Relatively cheap for full (15% chrome) and hardenable stainless, does not tax the limitations of mass production heat treat techniques, and so lots of mass marketers of knives naturally flocked to it, and it's been a nice little earner the Krupp folks who produce it.  But it's just a low grade knife steel, course grained and also unexceptional in edge retention.

Yet the cheapest examples of knives with this Krupp steel will get sharper than is practical to try and replicate in ceramic.  Ceramic is very brittle and cannot tolerate a steep sharpening angles.  Even with a conservative edge it will sustain greater damage if wacked against anything hard.  The only practical way to sharpen it is with a DMT extra-extra fine diamond stone, which costs less, will give a far superior edge and last about a thousand times longer (no exaggeration) than those dinky little diamond wheels in the cheap quality battery unit Brian linked to.


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