# Shun Vs. Global Santoku



## chunghan

I'm recently in the market for a santoku, and I've basically narrowed it down to 2 choices. Either the 7" by Global or the 7" Scalloped by Shun. I know a lot about knife choice comes down to personal feel, but I was wondering if anyone had an opinion about which would be better? Thanks for your help.


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## cape chef

A lot of it depends on how you will use your knife and it's overall comfort.

Both the Global and Shuns have narrow handles which can fatigue your hand if your doing heavy prep. The pakka wood handle of the Shun gives it more weight. I like the Damascus approach to the blade with the Shun.

There both excellent knives, and like you said, it's about personal preference.


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## artameates

i learned of The Beauty today. Shun is remarkable. I held the 8, 10 inch chef knives and the santoku (it caught my eye as the clerk was about to mention it). They have a smoothness, like water. Compared to every other major brand, shun is my choice. I was giddy. Im tempted to drive 80 km to the knife store again so i can hold the others, too. Premiumknives.com has pictures as well as descriptions on the whole line(?). ahhh melt.


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## anneke

Just curious: has anyone looked at the Wusthof santokus? The hollow edge 7" is offered at a serious discount on Amazon ($92). If they shipped here I'd order one...

I'm also in the market for a good santoku. I haven't picked one yet but I'll keep an eye out for Shun.


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## bullyinny

I would look into Kasumi knives - they have a beautiful 7 inch santoku.
IMO stay away from the Wuesthof santoku.
www.japanese-knife.com is a great site for all types of asian knives. They even carry Masamoto and other high end manufacturers, be prepared to throw your sharpening skills out the window though...they are tough to maintain by German blade standards.


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## markovitch

Ksdumid are great but i must suggest looking at the furi santoku as wel as the shun and global. I like furis, they are a lot like globals but they don't hurt my hand as much and they hold an edge longer (harder metal i think)


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## azrael

the Wüsthof Santoku is good knife as knives go but it's little more than a Western knife shaped like a Santoku.

Likewise, the Henckels.


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## anneke

I agree AzRael. Is that a bad thing though? Can you explain why real japanese santoku is better? (I've never had one...)


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## bullyinny

I just got a Furi east west (santoku) and i think its great.


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## orangebang

you guys should check out the kitchen forum in knifeforums.com

there are two or three guys there that know more about Japanese knives than anyone I've ever met. 

It helps that one guy owns his own shop. The other two...well, they have no other excuse than being downright obsessed.

 

FWIW, the Kasumi and the Shun knife are almost identical. They are not however, made in the same factory. I don't think you could go wrong buying either one.

I personally LOVE the way the shuns feel and look. I'm not too sure about the fatigue of the Shun though...the handle isn't THAT small...and it is a perfectly balanced blade. I couldn't recommend it more highly.

Depending on how much you want to spend, there are always other brands.

Japanesechefsknife.com or the knifeoutlet.com are great places to get good blades for decent prices. The previous site has high end knives that will have any chef/aspiring chef DROOL with envy.

It really puts western steel to shame, as you can imagine the men making the knives come from a long heritage of samurai sword makers.


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## hipjoint

kasumi and shun classic are very similar but the shun has a steel endcap
and the kasumi does not. just the thing for smashing a garlic clove.

and i don't know what the problem is with maintainance of the japanese
blades vs. german blades. if you look at the typical german blade, the blade
tapers down to the edge then the last 1/16" is the actual edge.if you hold
the edge up to the light, you can see the rapid cut to the edge, at mebbe
a 45 degree angle?? on many japanese knives the sides go right into the edge, giving a 25 - 30 degree angle on the edge. no wonder they are so sharp.

the japanese have no qualms about sharpening (and i mean on a stone!!)
every day after work. they realize it is a part of life. and if the knife wears away?? why worry about passing it on to your kids?? let them buy their
own knives!!


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## artameates

i just got alton browns paring knife by shun, its so great


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## mikeb

I've used the Kasumi Santoku, Global Santoku, Wusthof Santoku but not the Shun. Personally I don't like the Santoku shape at all, but out of those I'd recommend the Kasumi. I have their 8" chef knife, and it's great. If you sharpen it properly and often it's very sharp.


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## hipjoint

shuns are very close to the kasumis, hard to tell the difference. why don't 
you like the santoku shape? as an experiment, i had a 10" forschner fibrox,
a 10' dexter-russell, and a 10" boker arbolito chef's knives all turned into
a santoku shape by cutting and rounding off the last 2" off the tips. i have
had about a dozen different cooks use these blades and there was universal
approval of them, even among the few that didn't like santokus. apparently,
what they missed most in a santoku was the extra length found in their
chef's knives. what they DID like about the bobbed blades was the precision the tips exhibited compared to a same length chef's knife.
also, a few passes on a #2000 grit ceramic rod is enough to keep them
sharp. regular steels don't work as well.


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## darkfae

I recently bought my first Shun, an 8" stainless steel chef's knife. When I saw it on display, I stared, and then kept wandering back to it while my friends were browsing other cookware items. Once I actually held it, and felt its weight and balance, I knew I would have to buy it. I have since scraped and saved and have a 4" paring knife, 7" boning and 9" slicer coming my way.

For me, the handle is perfect, but my hands are on the small/thin side. So uh, yeah. I'm a little biased towards the Shun, heh.


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## hipjoint

===== for my brother-in-law's 50th b-day, i bought him the 10' shun
chef's knife, and i bought this over the kasumi because the shun has that
nice steel "end cap" that i had engraved with his initials and "big 5 - 0".
before that he had the usual chicago cutlery hardware store stuff with some
forschner wood handled knives and some other odds and ends. he loves
to cook but never thot much about getting better knives. now he kinda
cusses me cuz he can never go to those knives any more. the shun was so
sharp and sliced so precisely and felt so good in his hands he has now gone
over to japanese knives completely. he travels lots with his job and in tokyo
there are some small hand forged knife shops just above the tsujiki fish market
and he has brought back genuine hand forged japanese steel that you can't
find in the u.s. cuz production is too low for export. holy cow, how 
beautifully made and sharp these blades are!! i have written in other threads,
anyone who has actually used these kinds of blades can NEVER say that 
their german blades are razor sharp ever again. sure, the german blades can
be sharp, but never to the degree these japanese blades are!!


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## darkfae

I have to concur, I am sold on the Japanese blades. I would certainly not mind a hand-forged one... I have family in Japan, perhaps I could ask for a favour!

And the engraving is a neat idea. I may need to pinch that and do it to my knives.


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## artameates

yea its more like scalpel sharp


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## cookingqueen

I would highly recommend the kasumi titanium santoku knife, I have yet to sharpen mine and have had it for 9 months and it is just as sharp as it was the first day i got it. It is a truly AMAZING knife and the handle is alittle more form fitting than my shun knives. I have several different knives wushtof, henkels, fibrox, global and shun. The only brand comparable to the kasumi is the shun but I have to say that I will be buying the entire kasumi knife kit because it is hands down my favorite. I just wish they had a 10in chefs knife in that collection. Hope this helps!!


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## jubal

If this is a concern, global may work out better for you as they are much lighter than the shuns, and will weight contributes a lot to fatigue.

Myself, I like having both on hand. Generally I like my Globals better, but I LOVE the thumb/index finger bevel that the shuns have.


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## bob13bob

don't go santoku. Not good knife. get 7-8" chef or the japanese version of it (forgot what it's called)


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## chrislehrer

Just a few points.

1. Don't go looking on the various hard-core knife forums. If you like a santoku, you will get nothing out of them, because they pretty much all hate that knife. I won't go into why: you want it, you like it, 'nuff said.

2. Shun vs. Global: pick what feels better to you. Some say that Global is harder to sharpen, and others say this is nonsense. The arguments rage. Both are reliable, mid-grade knives. IMO they are priced well over their quality, but that's my opinion.

3. If you want a santoku, you have the right length: 7". Don't buy one longer than that, and don't buy under 5.5". The knife has its good points, and they all happen in that length. For a longer knife, you don't want a santoku, I assure you.

4. Sharpness out of the box means nothing. You will have to sharpen this knife, albeit the sharper it arrives, the longer you can wait on this, but it's not going to be forever. If you are not an experienced sharpener, you may want to look into the sharpeners sold by these two lines, which are essentially interchangeable as far as I have heard (I have used neither). I advise you not to use the standard system for Western knives at home (and often in the pro kitchen), i.e. to steel them, then have them sharpened annually by a pro -- these knives will not respond well to this treatment, and the pro sharpener is likely to put a bad edge on these knives, because they are made somewhat differently than is usual for Western knives.


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## bob13bob

I think expert opinions are more valuable than my own, or someone elses who knows less. they don't like santaku for a reason.

from what I hear, santoku is bad period.


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## phaedrus

It's not so much that a santoku is bad...it's more just that anything you can do with one can be done just as well or better by a gyuto. The reverse isn't true.


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## chrislehrer

I didn't want to get into this, but let me give a quick overview.

A santoku is a Japanese invention dating to sometime around the turn of the 20th century. It is not clear, apparently, just who invented it or under what circumstances. Certainly by the teens and twenties it seems to have been advertised to housewives as a modern, up-to-date, thrifty, "does-it-all" knife. In that time and place, many of these notions were commonly linked, among young urbanites and urban-wannabes, with the West, and indeed, the knife appears to have arisen under strong Western influence. This is most noticeable not in the double-beveled edge (other such knives predate the santoku) but in the notion of a single knife that could be used for both flesh and vegetables.

This knife came, over the next 40-60 years, give or take, to supersede the old-fashioned nakiri (vegetable-cutter), which these days appears in popular graphic media (TV, magazines, etc.) in the background of all kinds of shots in order to indicate rusticity, old-fashioned ways, grandma, and so on. It's a rustic knife; the santoku isn't.

What the santoku is, however, is a housewife's knife. That's not a criticism: a great many Japanese women take real pride in the term _shufu_. There are certain advantages, when these knives are compared with their professional counterparts: the santoku is easier to use, easier to maintain, smaller (an important point if your kitchen is 4' deep including countertops, and you have small children in the house), and cheaper.

A gyuto is a very odd beast, since only in the last 15 years or so has it turned up in mainstream Japanese professional kitchens at all. It's a western (French-profiled) chef's knife, made by Japanese knife-makers according to their notions of appropriate hardness and so forth. It has largely superseded the older usuba, because the latter is much harder to learn and less all-around useful if your trade involves a significant amount of meat.

So which is the better knife? Depends what you want. If you want a 6"-7" knife, you want a santoku. A chef's knife that size doesn't work well at all. A reasonable comparison would be with a utility knife: which is better, utility or santoku? Frankly, probably the santoku, _provided of course that you are not using a chef's knife in addition_.

However, if you are paying a lot for your santoku, you're getting ripped off, in my considered opinion. You've just lost out on the #1 most valuable thing about this knife, which is that it's cheap. When I lived in Kyoto (untile last month), I could pick up a high quality stainless or carbon steel santoku for about $40 any day of the week, and as you may know Japan is not famous for being a cheap country to buy things. If I wanted one from a high-end fancy place that marks its lovely wares up because of the name, I could have one from Aritsugu Kyoto for about $75, and they'd sharpen and engrave it for me with a smile. When I hear that someone has paid $150 or something for a santoku, I can only laugh: why would you want to drop that kind of change on a knife like that? It's like spending $150 on a paring knife -- only collectors and lunatics need apply.

All of which brings me back to my original point. If you're looking for a santoku, and there are reasons to do so (for example, you've used one, like them, and want one), stay away from the high-end Japanese knife forums. They will simply tell you it's a bad knife, it's no good, a "true gyuto" is infinitely superior, and all that. All of this is in a sense true, under certain circumstances, for a certain value of "true." But if you already know more or less what you want, such advice is unlikely to be of much value.


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## phaedrus

Sadly, I _live _on the high end knife forums!:lol: And while I mostly agree with you, Chris, I have a powerful yet inexplicable lust for those Ironwood handled R2 Tanakas...the gyuto of course but the santoku as well. But I will readily admit to being one of those "lunatics"!:crazy:

Oddly I do know one kid that loves the santoku like Dave Martell loves Racheal Ray- he's a recent culinary school grad and only 19. In his case it's mostly a case of not being experienced and simply not having used many knives.

As a knife geek I keep a few santokus around but I have to invent reasons to pull one out. Mostly I like to play with my blades.


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## the tourist

So have most of my clients.

In fact, this market has changed so much that I am now solely an ipso facto japanese knife distributor. My wife uses nothing else.


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## akilae

Not to actively revive old and buried threads, but I had to register just to ask... Chris, could you point me to these places in Kyoto, especially for a stainless steel santoku? I was in Kyoto last month and visited Aritsugu to see about picking up a gyuto or a santoku, but left much disappointed by their rather overinflated prices.


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## mabel ang

Santoku means three (3) virtues, the santoku is utilized in aisan cooking, primarily for fish, meat and vegetables.  The price is dependant on the range/quality of the knife.  Upmarket santoku cuts through hard vegetables like carrots as if you are slicing through butter.


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## chrislehrer

Akilae,

You won't find stainless in Aritsugu, though they have stainless cladded. The prices were always high, but with the collapse of the exchange rate they are presumably beyond belief now.

If you want a perfectly serviceable, inexpensive santoku in Kyoto, go to a hardware store. Some hardware stores also specialize in blades and sharpening equipment -- "specialize" here meaning that they have rather more of this kind of thing than you might expect in the average hardware store, not "specialize" in the sense that this is the majority of their stock. A place like this is probably ideal, but you'd have to do some web-surfing and probably some wandering around to find one.


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## chrislehrer

Mabel Ang said:


> Santoku means three (3) virtues, the santoku is utilized in aisan cooking, primarily for fish, meat and vegetables. The price is dependant on the range/quality of the knife. Upmarket santoku cuts through hard vegetables like carrots as if you are slicing through butter.


Much of what you say here is true in a rather limited sense. Let's be precise:

1) _Santoku_ certainly means "3 virtues," but it is not clear which set of three virtues is intended; you will find at least four lists presented as gospel truth if you search hard enough. One set is a classical formulation of three Buddhist virtues. One set is a kind of modernist re-statement of those same virtues, such that thrift enters into it. One set is a list of foods (usually, but not always, fish, meat, and vegetables). One set is a list of things a knife does (chop, slice, mince is, I think, the usual set, but that's from memory). Since nobody that I am aware of has ever successfully tracked down the original advertisements that named this knife "santoku," it's all pretty much a guess at this point. Bear in mind that the same knife is equally commonly called _bunka-bochou_, which appears to be at least as old a name and has nothing whatever to do with three virtues.

2) By "Asian cooking" one presumably means Japanese, since it's not extensively present outside Japan.

3) Price is partly dependent on quality. With this knife more than most, outside Japan at least, price is also very largely dependent on advertising. A lot of folks have this general impression that Asian or Japanese knives are supposed to be better, and then the santoku gets pushed at them as the best thing ever. Since the market will in this case bear a lot of high prices, the prices are often grossly inflated.

4) A really sharp knife of almost any kind should go through a carrot easily. A santoku has no special virtues here over other knives appropriate for cutting carrots.


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## lennyd

Mable and Chris I believe you both give a good if slightly different explanation of the use and beyond of the santoku.

What I really have trouble understanding is why so many either dislike or discount this knife.

I think it is very good for a few different things including the seemingly older more popular being a housewives knife. Please don't that as sexist but only to be about seeming to be a good fit for the many claiming to want a smaller knife that is not as intimidating as say a 270mm gyuto etc.

Personally I have had a odd relationship with this style knife. Before finding my way to Japanese knives while I was still primarily using either Henckels Pro S or Mundial the Pro S santoku was the sharpest in use due to the thinner blade, and therefore saw more use than ever expected. I still used the chefs and slicers, but the santoku did see some of the jobs normally seen by the others.

Even now that I had previously sold off the Henckels and have built on my original entry level J knives, and even have moved up the quality and price scale with the addition of a Konosuke HD gyuto (which is great btw) I still use the Tojiro DP santoku often. 

I find it great for a few different things and especially when working cramped or on a small board or even just for a small job. I do some small dishes often and if you just need to cut up a couple potatoes for a side to eggs over like this morning, slice some lemons or limes for drinks like the other night etc and really have no need to be using and then cleaning your large board etc just grab a small bar size board and be done with it.

I have found I prefer one for some of the jobs like cutting lemons etc over the smaller petty (sorry not sure why lol) and even when I have had larger jobs to cover like over the holidays it gets used as the extra chefs because it is so much better than the Mundial I keep for guests etc.

Will it replace my gyuto? Of course not, but that is how I was trained years ago and am comfortable, but I am sure if for some reason it was all i had available it would do just fine except the odds times you really need something longer.

Still I agree completely that this is not where someone should be spending crazy money, but I tend to seek out value or maybe call it frugal lol.


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## chrislehrer

Lenny, I for one do not discount or dismiss the santoku. I think it has its place. My sole objection is to the strong push some companies make to get western wannabe gourmet home chef types to buy these knives at very inflated prices on the ground that they are "traditional Japanese" whatever.

You are dead right: a santoku is very good in a confined space. If you have ever seen the kitchen layout of the average Tokyo housewife, you know she's working in a teeny space. I presume there are standards for countertop depths and stuff, but so far as I can tell those standards must be shockingly shallow. If you've only got 14" to work in, and a wall or lip at the back, a long knife with a sharp point is not your friend. Furthermore, if your kitchen habits are like most people's, and you leave stuff lying around, a long knife on a shallow, low counter is not a good thing where children and pets might be involved.

To top it off, I am of the opinion that a French chef's knife (gyuto, whatever) shouldn't be under 7" at the bare minimum. I just don't think they work right. I'd be a lot happier about 8" minimum. So if you need a workhorse around 6.5" long, I'm going to push a santoku.

The thing is, most Americans at least do not need a knife that size, because of countertop standards. And I am very skeptical that you could ever convince me that a $150+ santoku would ever be a sane purchase for anyone but some kind of collector or hobbyist. Yet I have no trouble applauding the lunatic (like myself) who drops twice that much on an 11" Masamoto gyuto. I think there's a sort of upper limit on the santoku, is one way to put it.

But mostly my point in the previous long post was to clarify some historical confusions about this knife. (A few of those confusions arise from and are perpetuated by deliberate fabrication, too, though this is certainly not the case in the post to which I replied here.)


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## drosales

I'd choose the Kasumi Damascus knives over Shun any day. Testing done by America's Test Kitchen, Consumer Report, and NSF all found that the Kasumi has a harder blade with an edge which stays sharper longer than the Shun classic. The Kasumi also sports a more solid, thicker bolster & tang than Shun, Its handles are also securely held in place by rivets AND glue. Shun handles, on the other hand, are glued to the knife without any riveting. This makes them susceptible to breakage if dropped. I am speaking from experience as a former Shun owner whose knife broke after an accidental fall off a 2nd story balcony. Whenever a company like Shun uses enclosed handles on their knives, it's most likely because they're trying to hide an inferior tang. Having a metal end cap just so that you can engrave a name, or crush garlic really isn't much of a criteria to use when shopping for a high end knife. Quality always beats quantity. Simply put, Kasumi is a better constructed knife in every way. Advantage: KASUMI


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## johnnyf

Would you please provide links to the testing performed by America's Test Kitchen, Consumer Report, and NSF on Shun Vs Kasumi? Does Kasumi warrant its knives for 2 story drops?  Just curious...


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## bdd8

Since some believe the narrow handles on some Japanese knives (e.g. Global, Shun) might be fatiguing...what about knives with "western handles" like MAC, Zwilling JA Henckles, Wusthof....etc. 

Some one on this thread didn't like Wusthof...can you tell us why?

And yes...I do realize it will come down to how the knives feel in my averaged sized hands. Just looking for some opinions from those who have used or handled the above mentioned knives. I've been using "throw away brand" knives (e.g. get dull...toss...not worth paying to get them honed/sharpened). 

Thanks.


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## boar_d_laze

> Since some believe the narrow handles on some Japanese knives (e.g. Global, Shun) might be fatiguing...what about knives with "western handles" like MAC, Zwilling JA Henckles, Wusthof....etc.


Global and Shun have very different handles. Globals are western shaped, While Shuns tend to have something "sort of Japanese," or -- with a couple of lines -- "ergonomic." In addition, Shun has many types of handles, not many of them are particularly narrow. Quite a few people use too much force with their grips, and that's where fatigue comes in.

Many people find Globals to be slippery, and squeeze too tight to compensate. However, most "overgripping," seems to come from a combination of poor skills and dull knives.

Typically, the better your grip (and the rest of your skills), the less important you'll find handle designs. That doesn't mean though that some will be more comfortable others. While I mostly use octagonal, Japanese handles, I find all your referenced knives very good.



> Some one on this thread didn't like Wusthof...can you tell us why?


Don't know whom you're talking about, but most Wusthofs are heavy and the chef's knives are designed with the clumsy (too much belly) German profile. In addition, like most other German made knives, they dull very quickly. Heavy and dull does not describe a good knife.



> And yes...I do realize it will come down to how the knives feel in my averaged sized hands. Just looking for some opinions from those who have used or handled the above mentioned knives. I've been using "throw away brand" knives (e.g. get dull...toss...not worth paying to get them honed/sharpened).


Throw away knives aren't much fun.

Allow me to say though that for the vast majority of cooks, learning to do one's own sharpening is by far a better option than sending one's knives out.

BDL


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## bdd8

Thanks for your input BDL. 

Does make sense. Perhaps people owning certain Japanese knives for the first time see the narrow handles (e.g. some Shuns, Kasumi) and assume they need to grip tighter. So from their experience they generalize. Narrow handle = fatigue. 

As I said I definitely plan to handle some knives before i buy. Of the Japanese knives I'm guessing I'll end up leaning towards the MAC's. Japanese blade German handles. Like to see how heavy Wusthof's are. 

You mentioned you use Japanese knives with octagonal handles. Any particular reason why? Just feels best to you? What is the brand?

And regarding sharpening...while using stones and working on one's sharpening skills is good (maybe the best). I don't think we're all that devoted to knife care. I'm planning to buy a sharpener with stone wheels...which you use water with...supposed to do a decent job as long as you keep your blade vertical. 

The knife shop in my city usually pairs stones or sharpeners with the knives they sell. Depending on whether the blade is German or Japanese. 

Any opinions on K-Sabatier knives? Any one?


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## chinacats

BDD8 said:


> And regarding sharpening...while using stones and working on one's sharpening skills is good (maybe the best). I don't think we're all that devoted to knife care. I'm planning to buy a sharpener with stone wheels...which you use water with...supposed to do a decent job as long as you keep your blade vertical.
> 
> Any opinions on K-Sabatier knives? Any one?


One opinion on any carbon Sabatier is that if you plan on sharpening the way you are speaking of and don't want to involve yourself in knife care, then avoid them or any nice Japanese blade...stick with dull, heavy German stainless knives that it won't matter how you treat the steel.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

As to K-Sab, they are very nice knives as are ****/Elephant Sab's.


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## wunderbier

BDD8 said:


> ...
> 
> Any opinions on K-Sabatier knives? Any one?


I have a K-Sab. Just one 10" carbon chef's knife I bought last year and I'm pretty new to all of this still, but there you go. In terms of my knife right now, it's pretty great but it requires a good deal of honing and it's been a labor of love. I had an issue with the blade coming to me bent, sent it back, they straightened it and sent it back. It still wasn't perfect IMHO, but that's life. The OOTB sharpness and profile was pretty terrible for me. I've thinned behind the edge quite a lot so far and obviously redone the primary (cutting) bevel completely. I've also slowly worked away at the finger guard and it's now a little behind the edge and doesn't clip the stone during sharpening. There is also one seam where the scale doesn't quite touch the tang. It's a decently heavy knife at 261 g, though not as weighty as a similarly long German knife with a full finger guard. The profile is great. The steel was quite reactive at first, but even when I remove the patina and start over now it seems less reactive. Even when I switch over to Japanese for my main knife it'll still be quite handy when a sturdier knife is called for (i.e. winter squash and the like).


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## boar_d_laze

I'm not sure how many French carbon knives I've got, but it's enough to be a collection, so let's say "beaucoup." I've got a few carbon K-Sabs, including au carbones and Canadians. The last au carbones I bought were around Christmas from the regular online store (not the outlet), for my wife. But I've got more than a few which are quite a bit older. While I've never experienced the quality control issues described by wunderbier, his post isn't the first time I've heard about them. It's probably fair to say that QC there is less than perfect. How bad? I can't say. 

My experience with really bad sharpening and edge profiling is limited to T-I. All of the knives I've had from K-Sab have been at least pretty good. It sounds like wunderbier may have got a "Friday afternoon" knife. It happens. No excuse, but it happens. If I received a bent knife with visible gaps around the handle I'd sent it back for a replacement -- including appropriate sharpening -- if possible, as repairs to the bend aren't good enough. A new knife should be straight, period. The handle should fit. And the knife should have enough of an edge that it doesn't need immediate profiling.

Personally I don't care much about factory edges -- I usually get rid of the same day I get the knife (couple of days at most), and re-profile and re-sharpen with an edge more to my liking. However, I'm not the typical buyer and you should insist on an adequate factory edge. Fortunately French carbons are VERY easy to sharpen as long as you use appropriate tools. French carbons are relatively soft, typically around 55-56ish RCH, and they will need fairly frequent truing. I profile mine to roughly 15* with a bit of asymmetry, very similar to how I profile my Forschners, find they need about the same amount of steeling, but that the Sabatiers take a better edge. 

I've sharpened my Sabs on oil stones, water stones, loaded strops and with an EP equipped with a set of Choseras. You can get a great edge with any of those; but I find the longest lasting edges come from my oil stone set of India stones and Arkansas stones. If you're going to stick to knives made with soft, tough alloy you might want to consider a set like that. On the other hand, if you're planning on moving on to the sorts of strong, hard alloys Japanese knife makers use, and you're not going to keep multiple sharpening kits, you'd do better with decent water stones.

The best all around "steel" (aka rod hone) on the market at any price is the Idahone Fine (aka "1200"). At under $40, it's not very expensive which makes it double good. For the little it's worth I use two steels, a fine Henckels made much finer by years of use, and an HA borosilicate. The glass rod is really something special, but it's not much of an all-arounder. Steeling technique counts for a lot when it comes to maintaining the sorts of alloys used in carbon Sabs. Too many strokes or too much pressure is counter-productive and leads to ever more frequent steeling and sharpening. 

As a sort of overall conclusion, French carbons are excellent working knives as long as you understand how to keep them sharp. 

BDL


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## bdd8

Thanks again BDL. I was just curious about K-Sabs. I'm assuming the K-Sab's the local shop do sell will be true. As they have a good repuation as a knife shop as they do the quality of meats at their butcher shop.

If I go with MAC's (like how they feel in my hand) I might still just buy a quality sharpener to start with (that can hone and sharpen). Not sure I'll spend the time to "hone" my knife sharpening skills on wet stones. Though, my specialty knife shop (also owns one of the top butcher shops in the city) also happens to hold knife sharpening classes with wet stones. So who knows.

The name of the shop I will likely buy from is called Slice & Sear (www.sliceandsear.com). Good selection. Professional people.

Also, does any one have experience with Shun's "Reserve" line of knives? They have German handles. Bit more expensive. Or any of the other Shun lines. I think their Premier line has a bump in the handle to help keep your hand in place...plus the handle is tear shaped. Do all Shun's have tear shaped handles?

In the end, I'll decide when I handle some Japanese knives with both types of handles (Japanese or German). See which feel the most balanced to me and not heavy (e.g. Wusthof...wonder if the Zwilling JA Henkels are also as heavy...Pro or Pro-S series)..


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## chinacats

BDD8 said:


> The name of the shop I will likely buy from is called Slice & Sear (www.sliceandsear.com). Good selection. Professional people.


Not sure what knives these are, but they are not K-Sabatier...the stamping is completely different...they may be Sabatier, but that says nothing...seems these people are selling k-sabs without the "K"?

This link is for the real K-Sab au-carbone knives...

http://www.sabatier.us/kitchen-knives_15_au-carbone-vintage_.html


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## wagstaff

I'll bet they're just bad with uploading updated photos. Those knives also say Stainless on them. I'd be shocked if they're sending those out to people who order au carbone. A call or email would provide assurances.


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## boar_d_laze

The knives with diamonds on the marque aren't K-Sabatier but Sabatier Diamant. I assume someone at the website got things garbled. I'd certainly call before you buy to make sure you're getting what you expect.

I was under the impression that K-Sabatier didn't sell to the US through any outlets but their own; but I wouldn't be shocked to find that impression wrong.

BDL.


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## lennyd

BDD8 said:


> Thanks again BDL. I was just curious about K-Sabs. I'm assuming the K-Sab's the local shop do sell will be true. As they have a good repuation as a knife shop as they do the quality of meats at their butcher shop.
> 
> If I go with MAC's (like how they feel in my hand) I might still just buy a quality sharpener to start with (that can hone and sharpen). Not sure I'll spend the time to "hone" my knife sharpening skills on wet stones. Though, my specialty knife shop (also owns one of the top butcher shops in the city) also happens to hold knife sharpening classes with wet stones. So who knows.
> 
> The name of the shop I will likely buy from is called Slice & Sear (www.sliceandsear.com). Good selection. Professional people.
> 
> Also, does any one have experience with Shun's "Reserve" line of knives? They have German handles. Bit more expensive. Or any of the other Shun lines. I think their Premier line has a bump in the handle to help keep your hand in place...plus the handle is tear shaped. Do all Shun's have tear shaped handles?
> 
> In the end, I'll decide when I handle some Japanese knives with both types of handles (Japanese or German). See which feel the most balanced to me and not heavy (e.g. Wusthof...wonder if the Zwilling JA Henkels are also as heavy...Pro or Pro-S series)..





BDD8 said:


> Thanks again BDL. I was just curious about K-Sabs. I'm assuming the K-Sab's the local shop do sell will be true. As they have a good repuation as a knife shop as they do the quality of meats at their butcher shop.
> 
> If I go with MAC's (like how they feel in my hand) I might still just buy a quality sharpener to start with (that can hone and sharpen). Not sure I'll spend the time to "hone" my knife sharpening skills on wet stones. Though, my specialty knife shop (also owns one of the top butcher shops in the city) also happens to hold knife sharpening classes with wet stones. So who knows.
> 
> The name of the shop I will likely buy from is called Slice & Sear (www.sliceandsear.com). Good selection. Professional people.
> 
> Also, does any one have experience with Shun's "Reserve" line of knives? They have German handles. Bit more expensive. Or any of the other Shun lines. I think their Premier line has a bump in the handle to help keep your hand in place...plus the handle is tear shaped. Do all Shun's have tear shaped handles?
> 
> In the end, I'll decide when I handle some Japanese knives with both types of handles (Japanese or German). See which feel the most balanced to me and not heavy (e.g. Wusthof...wonder if the Zwilling JA Henkels are also as heavy...Pro or Pro-S series)..


If your fortunate enough to have a local source for learning to sharpen properly I saw at least give it a shot as IMHO there is no better way than sharpening and maintaining your own knives, and having someone to point out your errors and show you the correct way is a major advantage.

That applies no matter which knives you decide on.

I also had wished I would have been able to handle and just check out the Knives I was considering deviously as well, but also have learned that a lot of the importance is beyond what you will find from a quick handling (steel, actual use etc) and now know I may have actually made decisions that would not have been as good as I did "blind" due to having very different opinions and knowledge from owning the knives I originally purchased


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## bdd8

chinacats said:


> Not sure what knives these are, but they are not K-Sabatier...the stamping is completely different...they may be Sabatier, but that says nothing...seems these people are selling k-sabs without the "K"?
> 
> This link is for the real K-Sab au-carbone knives...
> 
> http://www.sabatier.us/kitchen-knives_15_au-carbone-vintage_.html


Sorry. Didn't notice BDL's link (different color lettering) at the time. S&S (my local store) is selling only the high carbon steel knives. And as was pointed out they used photos of Sabatier Diamant knives instead for certain knives (got it right for other knives). Not sure why.

But, before I head to the shop I'll make sure to tell them to have the high carbon versions for me to handle (along with some MAC's and Shun Premiers).

As I said. This is a fairly respectable shop in Toronto. Honest mistake with their website photos.


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## wagstaff

Don't know why you don't see the icon. Your Toronto shop is showing pictures of the Sabatier Diamant classic series. Those are stainless knives. Sabatier Diamant doesn't make carbon steel blades at all. So the picture doesn't match the description. I don't think taking anyone for a ride is at issue. They just have a confused and confusing online catalogue. I'll bet the words are more trustworthy than the pictures, but you should definitely check with them.
Edit - you should see the diamonds on the knives from the link BDL provided. That's the Sab Diamant site. The link DuckFat provided is to the K-Sabs, which have no diamond logo. Or icon. Or marque. That's the whole issue. Description on the Toronto shop's site says K-Sab carbon. Picture is Diamant Sab, stainless.


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## chinacats

BDD8 said:


> But, before I head to the shop I'll make sure to tell them to have the high carbon versions for me to handle (along with some MAC's and Shun Premiers).
> 
> As I said. This is a fairly respectable shop in Toronto. Honest mistake with their website photos.


Just to clarify...high carbon can be stainless...when people here refer to carbon knives they are speaking of knives that are not stainless (they will rust/patina). Most knife companies use the term high-carbon to refer to 'high' quality knives...this may be what is misleading as these knives are usually stainless--and often not of the highest quality...kinda confusing myself now:>)

I think there is a thread around here that explains what percent carbon is required to be called "high carbon," but that is often less than half of the amount found in most 'carbon knives.' What I do remember is that the percentage of carbon is usually less than 2% in most knives...my old Henckels are around a 1/2 percent and I think most of my carbon knives are around 1 to just a little more.


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## bdd8

Hi chinacats,

I don't think carbon knives can be stainless. I think they just mean that these "carbon" knives have enough chromium to stop them from rusting. The percentage ratio of carbon to chromium. I was reading about this recently and watching a few YouTube videos from credible chefs and retailers. Now I have to go back and make sure which brands/series won't rust. I think K-Sab's "Vintage" line will rust (patina) but not their Elegance line. 

The Shun Premier line uses their VG10 steel with "stainless Damascus" on the sides. So these knives shouldn't patina. 

And even when the knives do patina I guess it shouldn't be anything to be concerned about. As in the case of K-Sab Vintage Au Carbone knives.

Now, LennyD mentions that K-Sab has "carbon" and "high carbon" knives. I briefly looked on the K-Sab website and thought I only saw SS or high carbon. Looking forwards to the photos LennyD. Which product lines are "only" "carbon"?


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## lennyd

I had wanted to post a pic or two of a brochure I have picked up from the K Sabatier distributor in SC, but the site wants a link so I will try to upload the pics some place I can link to later.

In the brochure they show carbon steel, and high carbon steel.

If I am reading it correctly the high carbon is referring to the SS knives.

Too bad this is a santoku thread as there is a building amount of info on the French knives


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## chinacats

BDD8 said:


> Hi chinacats,
> 
> I don't think carbon knives can be stainless. I think they just mean that these "carbon" knives have enough chromium to stop them from rusting. The percentage ratio of carbon to chromium. I was reading about this recently and watching a few YouTube videos from credible chefs and retailers. Now I have to go back and make sure which brands/series won't rust. I think K-Sab's "Vintage" line will rust (patina) but not their Elegance line.
> 
> The Shun Premier line uses their VG10 steel with "stainless Damascus" on the sides. So these knives shouldn't patina.
> 
> And when they say a knife will rust some say it's actually a good thing. Gives the knife character. Would that not make the knife not usable? As rust flakes or particles would be constantly coming off the knife. No?
> 
> Also, why "chinacats"?  Are you Chinese? Or do you like Chinese cats?


steel = iron + carbon (plus an assortment of other goodies)

chromium makes steel stainless

all steel knives have carbon

rust does not = patina

rust = bad

patina = good

chinacats == yes, i like chinese cats (krazy ones w/ eyes peeking through lace bandana like a 1 eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack :>))


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## duckfat

Wagstaff said:


> The link DuckFat provided is to the K-Sabs, which have no diamond logo.


Ooopsie. I wouldn't mind seeing that link. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Dave


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## wunderbier

chinacats said:


> steel = iron + carbon (plus an assortment of other goodies)
> 
> chromium makes steel stainless
> 
> all steel knives have carbon
> 
> rust does not = patina
> 
> rust = bad
> 
> patina = good
> 
> chinacats == yes, i like chinese cats (krazy ones w/ eyes peeking through lace bandana like a 1 eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack :>))


Indeed. Maybe BDD8 would find this steel guide illuminating.


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## bdd8

Thanks for the link Wunderbier. Good primer.


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## boar_d_laze

Steel by definition is iron + carbon. So, all steel has carbon in it. By definition, "high carbon" steel is any steel with greater than 0.50% (by weight) carbon; although some people -- including those who write the ads for German knives -- set the bar at 0.45%, particularly to define X45CrMo15 as "high carbon." This is the alloy you most often find in inexpensive Asian or South American knives advertised as made with "German, high-carbon steel." 

"Stainless steel," by definition, is any steel which has a chromium component equal or greater than 13%. For instance, the "15" in X45CrMo15 stands for 15% chromium.
Stainless steel may be high carbon or not. Some steels with some but less than 13% chromium are referred to as "rust free," "rust resistant" or "semi-stainless." 

We knife guys often use the term "carbon steel" to differentiate it from steels which have a large amount of chromium. 

Steel makers formulate steels with various elements in order to maximize certain characteristics and minimize others. The more carbon in a steel, usually the "stronger" it will be; but there are limits to how much carbon is practical. Until fairly recently, using enough chromium to make a real difference in stain and rust prevention meant knives that were difficult to harden and sharpen, etc. Very modern stainless is much better than stainless formulated even twenty years ago. 

My semi-stainless Konosuke HDs (about 9% chromium, I think) have excellent toughness, are hardened to 61RCH, have great sharpening and edge holding characteristics, are very pleasant to sharpen, etc. I could maybe squeeze out a little extra sharpness from a really good carbon like Shirogami #2 or 52100, but it would be at the expense of a lot of maintenance. On the other hand, French carbons will take a vastly better edge than almost any Euro stainless knife. That's partly the blade alloy and partly a bunch of other things. 

When we're discussing how the materials properties of knife alloys affect performance, we also have to acknowledge the importance of other factors, especially hardening. 

Different alloys, designs, and techniques do different things. The pleasure I take in using Sabatier carbons is not a criticism of Wusthof, Henckels or even Sabatier stainless any more than my affection for Parker fountain pens is a criticism of disposable ball points. 

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## wunderbier

@ BDL. What do you figure (any) Sabatier's current carbon steel is? I was guessing the other day that it might be something straightforward in the 10XX series, but I have no reference points to back that up. It was just conjecture based on the knives being relatively inexpensive and not marketing the type of carbon steel. Thoughts?


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## boar_d_laze

I don't know the right number for Sabatier carbon offhand -- whether classic or modern. Most estimates put it right around 0.5%. 10xx series steels tend to run towards more carbon, and in most respects other than hardness and hardening the Sabatiers -- or at least those with which I'm familiar -- act a lot like other 10xx knives I've used. 

A couple of things making them attractive are edge taking, and the way their softness makes for easy maintenance. In other words, they're neither overly tough nor strong (using those terms in their strict, "materials" sense), but balance the two quite sweetly. 

When you throw in the incredibly good chef's knives profile and their well proportioned handles, you end up with something very special. 

BDL


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## bdd8

Thanks for your help guys (BDL). Which knives I end up getting I have no idea yet. But will be either French (K-Sabatier Vintage Au Carbone) or some Japanese knives (e.g. Shun Premier, Masamoto, MAC...etc.). Will depend on my quick handling of the knives. Too bad you can't borrow them for a test run at home for a few weeks first.  I'm in LA now and won't be back home till the end of the year.

I am leaning towards a brand/series that makes a few of the "essential" knives I'm planning to start with (e.g. chef's, bread, utility and slicer...plus fork). And of course steak knives. Knowing of course no one says you have to buy all of the same brand. I'm sure you ex-chef's don't do this and have a mix. Which ever brand knife does the job best for you. I would just prefer it this way. The Shun Premier is one. MAC makes the "essential" knives just no steak knives.


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## boar_d_laze

I suggest that you leave Shun Premier off your list. They feel a LOT better in the store than they will on your board. There's a lot of good in terms of fit, finish, guarantee, and so on. But the chef's knives are handicapped by a really lousy, exaggerated German profile. Just going with your list, either MAC or Masamoto will probably serve you better in use. Plus... there are a ton of other knives out there. The trick -- such as it is -- is narrowing down the world of choices to a very small group which best reflects your priorities. 

BDL


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## bdd8

I'll keep that in mind BDL. About the Shun Premiers. As I said it's a shame we (new to high quality knives) can't borrow them for a few weeks. To see how they feel over a long period of use. Are they suited to your habits of knife maintenance? Etc. But I think I will still have a look at the Shun Premiers while I'm looking at the other brands at the shop. Just to compare.

How do you feel about K-Sabatiers? Have you owned or used their Vintage Au Carbone?

Is there any particular brand (s) of steak knives you favor?

This is the knife shop I'm planning to buy from http://www.sliceandsear.com/knives/ (1st choice) or http://www.internetkitchenstore.com/store/dynamix.asp


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## mabel ang

You should try the Twin Cermax Santoku 7" by Zwilling JA Henckels, its rentention to sharpness is indeed very good and long only downside is that you need to use a Henckels whetstone to sharpen it, nothing else would do, but the plus side is that everything feels like softened butter to cut.


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## chinacats

Mabel Ang said:


> You should try the Twin Cermax Santoku 7" by Zwilling JA Henckels, its rentention to sharpness is indeed very good and long *only downside is that you need to use a Henckels whetstone to sharpen it, nothing else would do*, but the plus side is that everything feels like softened butter


?????


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## nickstacey1987

I love my Shun, and bought the one below for a friend who used it to cut through Chicken and hit the bone. They're extremely delicate since they're so thin, and retailers advise not to cut anything that is too hard. Even a Yam should be avoided. Always have a good european for those harder things.


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## boar_d_laze

Most of the responsibility for THAT particular Shun disaster probably lies more with the fact that Shuns -- like many Japanese made knives -- are somewhat brittle, rather than that thin knives chip easily (they don't). For instance, several of my antique, carbon Sabatiers are just as thin as Shuns but have no trouble with splitting a chicken; but they're made from tough (as opposed to strong alloy) and only hardened to around 55-56RCH. 

There are also often technique problems which go along with chips: For instance, if the friend in question not only hit a bone but torqued the knife when he did so.

In my experience VG-10 knives tend to be a little "chippy" anyway, and more so until it's been sharpened a few times. I've heard a lot of speculation on why that's true, but don't find any of the reasons particularly convincing. My speculation: Since a few makers (e.g., Hattori) seem better than others (Shun, in particular) it seems it's not just the alloy itself or single-steel vs san-mai construction and may have something to do with hardening. Whether I'm right or (just as likely) wrong, it seems to be a good prophylactic to sharpen a VG-10s -- especially VG-10 Shuns -- early and often, as a well-deburred, fresh-metal edge is a LOT more resistant to damage. 

For people who like ultra-thin Japanese knives (me included), the best answer to the chipping problem, is of course, to keep one or two "heavy duty" knives for heavy duty tasks. 

BDL


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## phaedrus

I'm pretty much "over" VG-10.  To the nOOb J-knife buyer it's a "Super Steel" but compared to the better alloys it just okay.  I still have maybe 4 knives in VG-10 but I don't expect the same out of them as I do my knives in Super Aogamo, Shirogami, SRS-15, etc.  And as they get traded or sold over the course of time I probably won't be buying anything else in that steel.  At least not for kitchen use- I'm still very fond of my Spyderco knives in VG-10.


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## kevin sheffield

I use both Global and Kai Shun knives.

Both are great. 

Its the old story though  - go to the shop handle both and then decide which you prefer - We are all a little different.

The pro fr the Kai Shun is it will take a much finer edge and keep it longer than a Global.

The pro for the Global is that a ceramic honing rod will put a good sharp edge on it in seconds.  The Kai Shun does not respond well to a ceramic honing rod.

Kai Shun themselves say not to use a honing rod, but to do a few quick swipes on a stone.  Sorry Kai Shun, when I am busy prepping I am not going to soak a stone and do all of that. 

So I use both.

A word on Santoku - translates as 'three virtues': This, I believe was first developed by Global, who, I believe were one of the first Japanese knife companies to enter the Western Market. They call their Santokus "Vegetable knives. However the blade of the large 20cm 'Vegetable knife' has the same curvature as their popular G2.  So one might call it a sawn off Chefs knife!  It has more weight than the G2 and its a joy to use whenever one might want a chefs knife.

I do not have the Kai Shun 18cm Santoku. I use their chefs knife in that slot against the Global 20cm Santoku. or the Global G2. Sometimes I prefer using the lighter G2 over the heavy Kai Shun. Sometimes the heavy Gobal 20cm Santoku fits my mood better... Certainly it is better for heavy work.

I use both the Global and Kai Shun Classic 14cm Santoku's... both are great for fine stuff chifonade herbs etc.


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## millionsknives

Kevin Sheffield said:


> Its the old story though - go to the shop handle both and then decide which you prefer - We are all a little different.


All you learn from this is how heavy the knife feels in your hand and the shape of the handle. If you're using a pinch grip it shouldn't matter much.

Unless the store lets you cut vegetables, you learn little from this experience. Cutting and sharpening are the only ways to really get to know a knife.


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