# Chef shortages ???



## vann (Jul 29, 2015)

Im currently finishing my honors degree in culinary arts and as part of that degree am doing a research paper on the chef shortage affecting the industry as a whole.

I was just wondering if any chefs out there would like to give any of their opinions on what they believe are contributing factors within the industry.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Most places today don't want to hire a Chef they feel they can do it by producing food in a factory setting and assembling it at the specific location.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

I don't know if this is much of  a problem in England. Personally if it is though I think it may due to TV making working in a kitchen look like horrible job where you are surrounded by egotistical nutters.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Crap conditions, crap pay, long hours, not-fun schedules(early mornings, nights, weekends, holidays), cheap, REALLY cheap owners, heat, cuts, burns, stress(someone told me kitchen work is in the top five professions for PTSD; don't know if that's true), and the fact that the person working next to you might be awesome & might be a borderline unemployable. The question we should be asking is why would people WANT to do this? Four years ago I was paying a baker the same wage he was making as a line cook when he moved to Seattle..
In 1992.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

I take it you don't give  motivational speeches at work lol


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## chezpopp (Aug 8, 2015)

Food is in the spotlight quite a bit now. People are more and more concerned and intrigued by food these days. Because of this more and more restaurants are opening. There is an interest in food and fine dining more so than ever. The demand for cooks is at an all time high. Especially skilled cooks. Then you get these green culinary grads who have no experience and think they should be on food network. When they get into a real kitchen and see what is really expected of them they cry in the corner and never come back. A culinary degree does not make you a chef. It doesnt even make you a cook. It makes you in debt. Experience and skill makes you a chef. So my opinion is a high demand for cooks but a lack of skilled people. It has to do with time demands, physical stress of the kitchen and mental stress of the kitchen. These soft newbies from the everybody gets a trophy generation are not prepared or tough enough and dont last. Just my opinion. The only thing i really have to back it up is the obscene number of culinary grads tell me that helping bust dishes or mopping floors is not their job they are a chef. Really what they are is unemployed and unemployable until they fix their attitude and toughen up.


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

For anybody in San Francisco right now they would tell you that right now it is a shortage of cooks and not chefs. There are sooo many restaurants opening and the cost of living is so high that there are more chefs than cooks. it amazes me how many restaurants are opening right now with this being such a major problem.

A little story of a stage we had last week at my restaurant. This guy came in with really just pantry experience and he came in saying he didn't want to work in a busy environment, wanted input on the menu, and didn't want to work the hot line only pantry. Told all of this casually to the executive chef while in the walk in.

he didn't get the job 

also a lot of people who come in and say they are want and can do the job but either never show up or prove that they cant keep up/do the job.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

I paid around $800 a month in 1980 for a one bedroom shit hole in the mission @ 24th behind the Bart station, can't imagine how anyone making line cook wages can afford to live on their own in the city these days.


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

chefbuba said:


> I paid around $800 a month in 1980 for a one bedroom shit hole in the mission @ 24th behind the Bart station, can't imagine how anyone making line cook wages can afford to live on their own in the city these days.


It would be interesting to see what that spot costs now. My friend in the last year moved in to a studio apartment that is on the very edge of the city bordering Daly city and she pays just over two thousand for it and she is in a place with terrible transportation options. I feel very fortunate to have moved in with a friend who has had his place on lock down for the last six or seven years now. As much as I love the food scene in this city I could not stay here long term due to the issue of well not being able to live on my own lol.

Chefs are desperate to keep good people in their kitchen; though it doesn't seem to translate into offering a higher wage in the more respectable kitchens granted since I am not looking for a job I don't feel the need to make myself feel bad by proving to myself that less skilled people are getting paid more for doing less.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

People are in a rush. They hardly go out to a restaurant for an experience. They go out to eat a meal. Really doesn't matter what is is. There are no more family meals. It's grab and go.

The large vendors have ruined the industry by monopolizing the purchasing power of restaurants. Which in turn developed this trend to acclimate diners to a mediocre product.

At one time there used to be a Pastry kitchen in every hotel in this city. Then companies like shitsco comes in and requires 90-95% of the chefs purchases or else they won't fund the bonus program.

So goodbye to Pastry Chefs, Garde Manger, Saucier, purchasers, and Sales Representative, and hello prepackaged mediocre food, order takers with computers. Requirements to work in a pastry shop now, a big box knife.

Don't even talk Chefs. Glorified bean counters. In a matter of 15 yrs. we have somehow let the industry take over the food and completely cut the customer out of the equation.

Yea, Yea, Yea, I know, there are a lot of great restaurants!!! I will bet a weeks pay if I climb up the ladder to the wallet, they are bleeding money like a stuck pig.

Oh, I'm done.

and Vann, these are just my worthless opinions of the contributing factors./img/vbsmilies/smilies/talker.gif


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

I am sure there are a lot of areas in this country where that is a very true statement. Makes me very glad to be in a major food city where restaurants can find success doing it right.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I can't fathom how line cooks survive in NYC, San Fran, etc.  Cooks want to work in those places for the experience but even rock star line cooks don't earn shit.  I think you have to get the experience you're after and move up quickly or move on quickly.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

@ChrisBristol i do actually. Maybe the reason its frustrating is that I like what I do & would like to see more people find a reason to do it. As a manager, I can't afford to be a romantic


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## kingfarvito (May 7, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> I can't fathom how line cooks survive in NYC, San Fran, etc. Cooks want to work in those places for the experience but even rock star line cooks don't earn shit. I think you have to get the experience you're after and move up quickly or move on quickly.


NYC honestly isn't bad as a line cook, at least so far. With the hours I'm making about 43k a year. And realistically living with a roommate that's plenty of money, and living without a roommate would be possible if I looked hard enough.


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## dreampunx (Aug 31, 2015)

stevenvhayden said:


> It would be interesting to see what that spot costs now. My friend in the last year moved in to a studio apartment that is on the very edge of the city bordering Daly city and she pays just over two thousand for it and she is in a place with terrible transportation options. I feel very fortunate to have moved in with a friend who has had his place on lock down for the last six or seven years now. As much as I love the food scene in this city I could not stay here long term due to the issue of well not being able to live on my own lol.
> 
> Chefs are desperate to keep good people in their kitchen; though it doesn't seem to translate into offering a higher wage in the more respectable kitchens granted since I am not looking for a job I don't feel the need to make myself feel bad by proving to myself that less skilled people are getting paid more for doing less.


Work in the city as well but commute from San Jose. Worst idea ever but living in SF doesn't appeal to me 


stevenvhayden said:


> For anybody in San Francisco right now they would tell you that right now it is a shortage of cooks and not chefs. There are sooo many restaurants opening and the cost of living is so high that there are more chefs than cooks. it amazes me how many restaurants are opening right now with this being such a major problem.
> 
> A little story of a stage we had last week at my restaurant. This guy came in with really just pantry experience and he came in saying he didn't want to work in a busy environment, wanted input on the menu, and didn't want to work the hot line only pantry. Told all of this casually to the executive chef while in the walk in.
> 
> ...


My chef mentions the influx of new restaurants in SF but the decline of cooks all the time. I can't wrap my head around it either. More than likely these new spots may or may not be around much more longer since so many spots shutter within there first year. At this point, I have no desire to live in the city and rather take my 600 dollar room in Santa Clara and take the long commute everyday to work in SOMA.

I doubt it'll get better.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

kingfarvito said:


> NYC honestly isn't bad as a line cook, at least so far. With the hours I'm making about 43k a year. And realistically living with a roommate that's plenty of money, and living without a roommate would be possible if I looked hard enough.


Sounds like you may be one of the lucky ones.

Interesting topic and timely too. Just read a* Nations Restaurant News* article about this very topic.

Basically people can't make a living on the line cooks job.

Cooks who work in NYC have to find a place to live else where and commute because the rents are so high in the city and burbs.

Kinda ironic in that it is the cooks that create the Chef's visions but are paid so little by the owners.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Ah, I just feel like an old fart this week.

Line cooks and servers. New name for peons. I can remember when restaurants were a place to go to forget and have a nice experience. Like an old movie.

I remember getting in early  and standing out back putting that last little spit shine on our shoes before entering." The so called called Servers and line cooks"

were The Maitre D,, waiters (front and back), bus persons and the kitchen cooks. and that smiling support staff ( the plongeurs )who would do anything for you and go where no man has gone before and got some compensation from all the staff.

It might not have been the posh place with the Brigade de cuisine, but we sure acted and respected each other like it was. You could get a halfway decent place to crash. Just grease the landlady with some food and some scraps for the dog.

Then somehow this profession went backwards and became more primitive then before. There is nobody to blame but ourselves for letting it happen. We got so wrapped up in titles,

quasi fame, notoriety, and yearning for the least little bit of respect from anybody, we let it all slip away. Hell. most of us can't even afford to eat in the places we work.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Pan,

I agree that there is a certain "toxic" quality  within the workforce itself but I think management culture is equally (if not more so to blame for many of the staffing quality issues.  There certainly are driven, talented, and serious cooks out there.  These are the folks who really want this to be their career.  And you also get a bunch of the workforce who think that they want it but learn after a time it is not the life for them.  Can't blame a person for changing course in life (heck I did that to get into this industry).  

But, at least from what I have seen, there are many folks in the industry who are only here out of desperation or happenstance.  Not to say that means they are bad workers necessarily but they are motivated to get a cheque and would just as soon work as a telemarketer or parking lot attendant to do so.  They might be in the industry, but they are not of the industry.   They do not see it as a long term vocation so they are not motivated to make the vocation better.  "Its just till I get my Sh** sorted out," sort of thing.  

The hospitality industry gets a rep for using "unskilled labour" but truth be told the industry itself has bent over backwards to make sure it doesn't need a skilled work force.  Reliance on preportioned convenience products, "idiot proof" spec manuals, the way many kitchens are structured are based around interchangeable minimum waged nameless staff that are treated as a necessary evil.  

If there is a skills shortage I suspect its largely has been because the business has tried at every turn to make real skill surplus to the business of running a restaurant.  Well, it worked!  Congrats!

The catch is, of course, the artificially low prices we are accustomed to for food are starting to catch up with us.  Fair value for food has been so long kept at arms length that with increased global demand, the calamities in the beef and poultry sectors, etc we know need skilled, experienced, and creative people who can make the food cost stretch a little farther.


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## vann (Jul 29, 2015)

ya i see your point,

There is a skill shortage happening all over really ,but do you reckon the low wages and overall working conditions could be playing a part in the issue?


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Vann,

I think the low wages and working conditions are a result of the over reliance on temporary/transitory workers with no intention of making hospitality their career.  If even 80% of these guys and gals were committed to making this field their career priority things would change.  But if you are working a line to get you through college, nothing more, then you aren't really going to be concerned about the over all state of working life.  

Skill, experience, these things cost money.  Margins are so tight that the industry writ large has done an end run around this expense with the self-fulfilled prophecy of unskilled labour.

Mind you, I do feel all most all of these issues eventually wind their way back to the public's addiction for unnaturally cheap food.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Allan, Thank you very much for putting my thoughts to words. I wholeheartedly agree. Believe it or not that is almost what I had in my mind but as usual it never makes

          to my fingers on the keyboard. I'm assuming that things won't change in my lifetime. The hospitality industry is the largest employer in the world. So not everyone

 has the (I hate this word), passion for the profession.  There are many talented cooks coming up. Unfortunately a lot of management just hung on and finally got to a point

where it was no longer possible to change careers due to responsibilities. I think one real problem is that the Chefs who wanted and had a good career somehow encountered

so many of these transient jobbers they don't want to waste time mentoring. I felt like that for a while. I now kinda of specialize working with those through SCORE and MicroMentor

who have the entrepreneurial mindset and a plan. I did get snagged a couple of times investing time in a person that had no intention to stay in the field.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

Possibly part of the problem also is that people leave school work in kitchens  and then leave. I know there are a lot of old school chefs on here but the fact is that catering is way behind other jobs in terms or rights, work place bullying and work conditions.

In my opinion work placed bullying is almost encouraged in some kitchens which shouldn't happen.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Love the question, hate the answer. 

     Sadly I think everyone is right. Too low pay, too many naive culinary grads, high stress, long hours, little work/life balance, reliance on prepackaged/portioned foods, public's expectation of cheap food, and whatever other comment i left out, all issues of the big picture that can be discussed at length.  I think it's ironic that despite the media glorification of the industry, the essential problems of the industry remain. The emphasis on the "showmanship" aspect is ever present but the harsh realities are never addressed.Of all the cooking competition shows Guy Fieri's Grocery Games or whatever it's called is for me the best example of the medias' misrepresentation of true cooking. 

    As far as too many restaurants' opening, I'll add that in addition to culinary experience, some sort of educational requirement be created and required for anyone thinking of opening a restaurant. Too many get the idea that it would be great fun to have their own place and then do so but with no real understanding of the challenges involved. And perhaps parenthetically, a trend I've noticed is that many of these restaurants are opened by the younger generation who follow the hip trends without understanding many of the traditions and practices of good cooking. Case in point is a local place that just opened as an upscale burger joint with farm to table, local products focus but serving frozen french fries. 

     Perhaps 60 Minutes could do a show on how kitchens should actually work and the day to day realities of running a foodservice operation.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

I don't know if there are too many restaurants opening, per se, or if there are just too many basically interchangeable restaurant concepts being churned out.  I get this feeling that people have this weird idea of wanting "maximum choice" while maintaining "total consistency."


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

AllanMcPherson said:


> Pan,
> 
> I agree that there is a certain "toxic" quality within the workforce itself but I think management culture is equally (if not more so to blame for many of the staffing quality issues. There certainly are driven, talented, and serious cooks out there. These are the folks who really want this to be their career. And you also get a bunch of the workforce who think that they want it but learn after a time it is not the life for them. Can't blame a person for changing course in life (heck I did that to get into this industry).
> 
> ...


pretty on point with that one. I agree, that restaurant management has indeed tried to simplify the process in an attempt to accommodate less skilled staff, lower labor costs, consistency, shorter ticket times, and volume. In most of my experiences even at a three star restaurant in San Francisco the line is simplified to the point that the line cook just needs to know how to manage his station and communicate. all the skill comes from elsewhere; granted managing a busy station and line is a skill on its own but it is but one of many skills required. I have at times had to fight my management in order to get a chance to learn something new. It is hard to move around to different stations in a kitchen when you fill a position that they have a hard time filling.

I think at least in my little part of this industry world that once the influx of restaurants that are opening in SF start to face closer due to lack of a quality staff they will be forced to face the fact that like a quality product they will have to work into their budget a better wage for a better cook. As bad as it is now, I don't think it is that distant of a future; however, for that to become a country wide truth that future may be pretty far into the distance.

After reading that I realized how every restaurant has to accommodate less skilled staff as someone cannot develop the skills required otherwise and I would think that most management would rather take someone they can mold to their needs and not someone that they have to correct or change. tough job, Respect to any real hard working chef/manager within this industry.


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## chezpopp (Aug 8, 2015)

Great discussion happening here. I would like to preface this by saying that when i use the term restaurant i am talking about that locally owned and operated dining establishment where real food and real cooking happens. I am not talking about the interchangeable applebees 99 tgi unos. The culinary school where i teach has an advisory board made up of i dustry chefs and owners. The lack of talented cooks is real and plagues them. The response from them is that most cooks view prep and cleaning as beneath them and wont do it. You cant keep that kind of person around. Bad for staff morale. I am not talking about the ding ding cuisine button pushers. I am talking about the saute cook who can churn out 200 dishes one pan at a time. Building sauces in pans and cooking vegetables a la minute. Maybe the term chef in the title of the post is the wrong term. There are possibly to many "chefs" or at least people that think they are. Before one becomes a chef there is usually a certain progression where you move up through the ranks gaining experience and knowledge. Each successful move up the chain gets you closer to the title. Not enough people out there are willing to put in the time and effort. To me a large part has to do with less than quality for profit trade technical schools. They take your money and dont give nearly the education they should and crank out these graduates with no real degree or even a clue. The lack of experienced cooks the dependable consistent creative line cooks a quality locally owned restaurant needs is definately real. Partly due to the nature of the beast partly due to the everybody is a winner entitled generation of u employable hacks and partly due to the overabundance of cheap crap chain restaurants doing 10 dollar entrees being served out of the microwave. I am hoping that the trend for quality food and ingredients continues as people become more focused on food and fine dining. Again lota of really great view points from all areas of the industry. I look forward to other peoples comments on this and will be watchi g this thread.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Why aren't we talking about chain restaurants? They are having the same problem. They can't even get people to show up and push buttons. And if we don't talk about them, we ignore one of the realities of our business: that applebees, etc., is where a great number of people choose to go spend money when they are hungry. Fundamentally, we do the same thing: feed people. If you're charging less than $30 a plate, they're your direct competition.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Chains are even worse about pay.

Explains why they are suffering as well.


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## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

The orignal topic is about chefs; also i can only speak of my experiences to which i have none in the fast food environment. I have strong opinions about chain restaurants but its way off topic and iam interested in the views of someone who works in that enviroment


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The original post, by Vann, was quite short, and it deserves a short answer:

"Chefs" have moved on to greener pastures.  Basically, a pasture that provides decent working hours and wages to support rent and living costs

But here's a longer answer:

Two years before I moved to Switzerland, the Swiss hospitality industry was in a bind.  They knew they weren't attracting any apprentices, and the Swiss hospitality relies heavily on apprentices for their future cooks, Chefs, pastry and baking, and servers.  A study was done and it revealed that the current 6 day work week was to blame.  Stodgy Swiss denial at first, but in the end they gave in and implemented a 5 day week, albeit split shifts,(as is the norm in Europe) but a 5 day week. 

Ironically enough, when I left Singapore in the mid 90's it was the same question, and the same answer: A six day week.  The solution there was to ignore that all the other trades were bringing in a 5 day week , and to import hospitality staff from neighboring Malaysia, Indonasia, and China. 

So, for the U.S., the blame for lack of cooks can be 75% for the hospitality industry, and 25% for the cooking schools (which, ironically are part of the hospt. industry, even though they don't acknowledge it).

Basically, you have no criteria--no benchmark or standards for what constitutes a cook--what body of knowledge they should know, what skills they should posses. (The title of this thread is another red flag, the author confuses cooks with Chefs)  Because of this, you can't "hang" a pay scale on to this trade, because of this, no cooking school can design a curriculum to meet the standards because there isn't any.  This is the center point in the whole issue. 

So who should design a standard or benchmark for what a Cook should know?  Any one brave or stupid enough for the Fed. Gov't to step in?  NO? How about the industry itself?  Should they actually give a sh*t about long term strategies?  I mean, they (US hospt. ind.) have enough clout to go and remove the minimum wage for servers, that must have took some doing and lobbying, right?  So they don't have the power to design a benchmark?  Or they just don't give a sh*t?

And the schools, time we roast their weenies too.  How the (deleted) do you charge 60 grand for a course that requires no previous experience in the industry and then let loose the graduate on the employer, only to earn minimum wage.  Does this say "I don't give a sh*t"?

And that is where all the COOKS have gone.  On to greener pastures.

A Chef is one who is responsible for maintaining a profitable kitchen, the cooks, cook.


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## kingfarvito (May 7, 2012)

Chefross said:


> Sounds like you may be one of the lucky ones.
> 
> Interesting topic and timely too. Just read a *Nations Restaurant News* article about this very topic.
> Basically people can't make a living on the line cooks job.
> ...


I did a little more research on this out of curiosity. This is based almost entirely on the word of other cooks so take it with a grain of salt. Basically I put together the offers I got from my trails along with word from other cooks.

Dovetail NYC: Starting pay $8.5/hour 60 hour week

The breslin NYC: starting pay 12/hour 55 hour week

John dory oyster bar NYC: Starting pay 12.25/hour 55 hour week

Juni NYC: Starting pay $12.5/hour 55 hour week

Marea NYC: Starting pay $12.5/hour 55 hour week

Momofuku ko NYC: Starting pay 10/hour 55 hour week

Koi San Francisco: 15.5/hour 60 hour week

Interestingly enough, dovetail pays the least out of this group and gas had ads on Craigslist constantly since I got to the city. Most of these jobs hover at right around 40k though


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

I take it your friends are being paid for the OT they're working? Because that's been an issue I've heard of in the past.


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## kirayng (May 28, 2014)

personal rant, deleted.


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## chezpopp (Aug 8, 2015)

I should clarify an earlier response. When I said I was not considering chain restaurants as restaurants it was for the purpose of this post. Chains compete with local business so must be considered in the grand scheme of things. For the purpose of this post though I am not taking them into account for a number of reasons. Most chain cooks do not neccasarily need prior training. It is an intro level position where training can happen on the job. If I was hiring a sauté cook they need prior experience and skill. I am not contesting that a trained cook at a chain isn't better but it is far easier to train a chain cook to push buttons than to hire a green sauté cook and train him. The lack of cooks with the skills to step into a line position and be successful from the start is what I am speaking of. The culinary schools and pricing definitely have a lot to do with it as another poster pointed out. Just wanted to clarify.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

kingfarvito said:


> I did a little more research on this out of curiosity. This is based almost entirely on the word of other cooks so take it with a grain of salt. Basically I put together the offers I got from my trails along with word from other cooks.
> 
> Dovetail NYC: Starting pay $8.5/hour 60 hour week
> 
> ...


Excuse me, but who better than the people in the industry to get the best information from?

And.....You just did the same thing by citing cooks from other restaurants and their line cook wages.

The restaurants that you site are all what would be considered "finer dining" but that is not what this thread is ONLY about.

There are people who work on the lines of Red Lobsters, Olive Garden, Ruby Tuesday, Hardee's, you name it.

These are the people that have to work 2 jobs just make ends meet.

These are the people who have to live with others because they can't afford the rent alone.

There is no answer to this.

It is not a surprise to me at all that chains pay better.

It all depends on what a person wants to do with their knowledge and crafts.

It's a balance thing for some people, who choose to have a "life" over working conditions of today's restaurants.

I certainly understand.


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## kingfarvito (May 7, 2012)

Chefross said:


> Excuse me, but who better than the people in the industry to get the best information from?
> 
> And.....You just did the same thing by citing cooks from other restaurants and their line cook wages.
> 
> ...


I didnt mean anything bad, I just know that line cooks like to brag about what they're worth. I know the places I talked about are fine dining, but that happens to be in the environment I and most of my co-workers occupy.


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Plus most "fine dining" places pay the least, just because everybody knows what an opportunity it is to work there. I doubt anyone other than the sous is making much more than the same 12 or so.


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