# Difference between a Burger and a Sandwich??



## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I have been in a long running discussion with some fellow Chefs and Food Scientists about the difference between a Hamburger and a Sandwich. I was wondering if any of you wanted to throw your hat in the mix and offer a definition between the two and clearly label the differences.

It is my opinion that they are different, a sandwich is served on sliced bread, a burger on a sliced bun. If you look on any restaurant menu they are listed in seperate sections and labeled differently. 

Now your turn.....


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I'd have to disagree. If we accept your definition, then _any _sandwich-like meal would be excluded. Tuna salad on a roll; cold cuts on a hogie bun; mufalatta (sp?), filled gougere, pulled pork & cole slaw on a bun, etc. None of these would be sandwiches.

To me, a sandwich is anything that's served as a filling between two pieces of breadstuff, no matter what form the bread takes.

As to hamburgers being listed separately: That's because hamburgers are treated as the Great American sandwich, and restaurants have a menu of them. If there was only one hamburger served in a particular place, instead of a selection of them, there's no doubt in my mind that it would be listed with the other sandwiches.


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## gregquinn (Nov 27, 2008)

I agree, in todays terms a sandwich comes on a slice of bread, and a burger comes with a bun. 

But if you look at the origins of the word 'hamburger' it comes from Hamburg steak, which originated in the German city of Hamburg. Contrary to what folk etymology might lead one to believe, there is no actual 'ham' in a hamburger.

The word sandwich may have come from one who was in a sandwich for time and wanted something quick to eat so he asked for some meat to be brought between two slices of bread.

So yes, they both have different meanings, but in today's understanding the bun and the slice of bread are all the difference.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

But KYHeirloomer, would you then call a Tuna salad on a roll a Tuna Burger or would it be a Tuna Salad Sandwich? In the opposite would you call ground beef grilled served on two pieces of sliced white bread a ground beef or hamburger sandwich? COld cuts on a hoagie depending upon where you are may be a grinder, a hoagie or a sub. A Muffaletta is a specific type of sandwich that is served on a specific type of bread and any deviation from that is no longer a Mufalleta.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The burger is a sandwich. I See it listed with sandwiches on menus frequently. Dictionaries define hamburger as a particular form of sandwich. 

Many classic sandwiches are served on rolls or buns rather than just "bread". Consider the entire class of submarine sandwiches and the buns used rather than just bread. 

Go into a grocery store. Stroll down the bread aisle. You'll find sandwich buns labeled as such. 

While meat between bread has ancient origins, the term sandwich originates with the Earl of Sandwich who was a devout gambler and hated interrupting his games for meals.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

But it is still a sandwich.


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

Based on the definition you have given a Porpoise is then a fish and not a mammal since it lives in the ocean with "fish".


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## lance folicle (Nov 1, 2008)

A hamburger is the meat between the bun or the bread. As phatch said, it's often described as a hamburger sandwich.

I've seen hamburgers served between slices of rye bread, on baguettes, white bread, challah rolls, and many other types of bread.

Some restaurants here serve a _"hamburger steak"_ or platter. It's a large amount of meat - 1/2-lb, served on a plate, not between slices of bread, along with vegetables, salad, etc. But it's still a hamburger.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The perils of analogy. 

The discussion here is conflating a couple of different things and treating them as one thing. Language and food are not the same things. 

It is useful to use language to describe and define food but they both exist separate of each other and so there are times when one is poorly served by the other. 

Outside of English, this discussion would be rather different as sandwich is distinctly English. Rather other difficulties would arise. 

Returning to the porpoise and fish, let us consider it this way:

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

Porpoise and trout are in the same kingdom, probably the same phylum, but I think they separate in Class (my Biology class was a long time ago). 

Anyway, to bring this analogy to food, Sandwich is a fairly high level category and hamburger is way down in that category probably at the genus level with the variations at the species level. Muffeleta is a completely different genus and species while all being sandwiches.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I like patty melts. 

Nobody calls them hamburgers anymore. Now they're called burgers.

I think from now on I will refer to them as hamburgerwiches.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>Based on the definition you have given a Porpoise is then a fish and not a mammal since it lives in the ocean with "fish". <

All analogies are falacious, Chefhow. But that one is a particularly long stretch.

Phil didn't say the buns made a sandwich because they lived with the bread. He said they were called sandwich buns, right on the package. And so they are. Hamburger buns are identified that way because they are a sandwich bun whose dough type is most often used to make hamburger sandwiches. In other words, "hamburger bun" is a subset of the general population "sandwich bun."

Now then, if you want to get technical, the hamburger is just the meat component of the sandwich. But because the burger is most usually served on a bun, instead of with other types of bread, we often use culinary shorthand and order the hamburger sandwich by just saying, "burger." But it's a sandwich nontheless.

No, I would not call a tuna salad sandwich a tuna burger. But, in current usage, anything shaped into a patty and cooked like a hamburger carries the "burger" name: tuna burgers, vegetable burgers, etc. Are you saying they are not sandwiches?

>A Muffaletta is a specific type of sandwich that is served on a specific type of bread and any deviation from that is no longer a Mufalleta. <

You prove my point. A Muffaletta isn't served on a specific type of bread. It's served on a specific type of roll. And, according to you, that would make it different from a sandwhich, because your definition says it has to be sliced bread.

Somebody mentioned patty melts. A great addition to the discussion. Patty melts are hamburgers and other stuff between two slices of bread. So where does that leave you? I'ts no longer a hamburger, because it isn't served on a bun. But it isn't a sandwhich, either, cuz it's usually listed in the separate menu section devoted to burgers.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

A Hamburger is a ground meat patty usually beef served between two pieces of bread, or a roll with assorted condiments on side


A Sandwich is usually any cheese or coldcut or filling served between 2 pieces of bread or roll. 

It is said sandwiches were invented so that the card players could keep playing cards and holding them while still eating ., but then again this could apply to a lot of other uses of eating with 1 hand.. Lord Montaign in the middle ages liked this method so therefore it was named sandwich. He did not invent it.

Any opinion or answer that anyone has stated could be deemed correct, as none of us were there.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

a tuna melt, in my experience, is typically served open face. there goes the whole "between the bread" theory.

"burger" aka "hamburger" as I see it refers to the meat thingie. ground meat shaped into a flat roundish "thing"

turkey burger, tofu burger (is that ground?), bison burger, ostrich burger . . .
chicken - perhaps except for McD - gets done as a chunk of non-ground breast meat - and gosh, it's usually labelled a 'sandwich' - not a 'burger'

fish anyone? again except for the fast food 'uniformity' issues, typically not a ground up reconstituted 'chunk of fish' - a fillet on a roll - and labeled "Fish Burger" - not.

when you say "Honey I'm going to grill the burgers now!" does that mean you're putting the bread - whatever shape or form - on the grill?

grinders, anyone?

the hamburger coming from Hamburg, Germany, is akin to the hotdog aka frankfurter coming from Frankfurt, Germany (am Main, anyone? there's more than one Frankfurt in Germany . . .)

so then there's the Earl of Sandwich and the Earl of Salibury - steak what?
another can of Worms - but that drags in Freedom Fries.......


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I'm with Phatch....
a hamburger, patty melt, burger are sandwiches.
not all sandwiches are burgers.

open face and finger are still types of sandwiches.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Count me with 'shroom, KY, Phatch, Ed and Kouki.

Another unnecessary example: A barbecued (pulled) pork sandwich is properly served on a "hamburger" roll with slaw and a mustard-vinegar sauce. (Okay, some poor souls prefer a red, vinegar sauce). Setting aside for the nonce the apostasy of red sauce, the bun doesn't make it a hamburger or keep it from being a sandwich.

BDL

_Tres Sophisticated_ MID-CAROLINAS 'Q SAUCE

_Ingredients_:
3/4 cup dijon mustard
3/4 cup mayonnaise
1 cup cider vinegar
1/2 cup Chinese white rice vinegar
1/4 cup real maple syrup, or more to taste
2 tbs Louisiana or chipotle hot sauce, or more to taste
2 tbs Worcestershire sauce

_Technique_:
Mix.

Loves you some 'q.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Me thinks this is sort of a "a splitting of hairs" and since I have nothing that even closely resembles a hair on my head.......... I've got nothing to split.:crazy:
I would add that a looooooong time a go in a land far, far away.....I had this discussion with several other culinarians and there was a very good reason or explanation made by a couple of us on why a burger was not or should not be classified as a sandwich. But since it was soooooo long ago my memory fails me on exactly why. Yet I do remember we finally had to agree to disagree.:bounce:

By the way....We have something here called a Baloney Burger. No....I don't mean being full of it but a real burger made out of a rather thick slice (almost an inch) of all beef Bologna on a grilled sesame seed bun with the works. Have yet to try one.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Sort of like a pastrami burger. Is it a pastrami sandwich with a burger added or a burger with a pastrami sandwich added. 

Neither of course.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

What's a panini?

mjb.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Probably right there with the cuban as a pressed sandwich.


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## chefallen (Jan 4, 2009)

laymens terms: a squished, grilled sandwich. A panini press, grills and squishes at the same time. Now this is what I understand a panini to be.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Speaking as somebody who is a comic book fan, this is the dorkiest thread ever. I mean that in a good way. The culinary equivalent of "who would win in a fight, The Hulk or The Mighty Thor."

--Al


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Where do you draw the sandwich line?

Pita? For me, no it's still used in sandwiches.

tortilla? I'm split on this one. Flour tortilla I lean toward including as a sandwich but not the corn tortilla. Sort of hypocritical there aren't I. I'm not sold on this one way or the other for sure though. I couldn't call enchiladas a sandwich casserole in they way I've seen Reuben Casseroles. But whither the corn tortilla taco? That too is very sandwichy.

Is a Chinese filled bun a sandwich? bao? 

Is peking duck in mandarin pancakes then a sandwich? Taxonomically, I want to say no, but it does have all the characteristics of a sandwich I would use for calling a flour tortilla wrap a sandwich. 

This may be like the word salad that labels things but is difficult to rigorously and consistently define. 

Phil


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## chefallen (Jan 4, 2009)

This whole thing between the hamburger and sandwich is kind of like the chicken and the egg thing. right? Well as I understand it, a sandwich is anything that is between two pieces of bread with a sauce and a garnish. Now there are different categories labeled under sandwiches such as hot sandwiches and cold sandwiches. To me a hamburger would fall under a hot sandwich classification, whereas a tuna salad sandwich might fall under a cold sandwich classification. I am not saying you can not make a hot tuna sandwich, which I have done that making a type of tuna patty with cream cheese in it and served that on a potato bread roll with fresh arugula and tomato. Now within those two classification one could even break that down further into several groups, such as subs, grinders, gyros and roll type sandwiches.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

I do know what a panini is, I eat at least half a dozen a month for lunch from the Mediterranean deli near the shop. That's the place on 39th South and State Street in case you're wondering, P. Hatch.

Basically I was just poking fun at the useless frivolity of this whole thread. Indigenous starch encasing indigienous protein has no doubt been a culinary mainstay most everywhere on the planet since, well, like forever, no matter what you call it.

I was thinking this thread was pretty useless, why on earth would anyone care that much about minor details? Then I read another post which reminded me how annoyed I get when folks confuse the verb marinate with the noun marinade. Sheesh.

One of the best lunches I've had in my life was in Hamburg. It didn't involve ground beef.

mjb.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Old cookbooks from the 40s and 50s contain recipes for Hamburger Sandwiches. These recipes are for patties with ingredieants that resemble meat loaf, but are fried instead of baked. Don't know when this changed to the pure meat patty we use now. Fun to read these old books and see how they reflect the times they were written in. After WW II, the trendy thing was the macaroni ring for a main dish. This was cooked macaroni pressed into a ring mold and then unmolded on the serving plate and the center filled with some type of vegetable and meat mixture. Sort of a deconstructed hot dish I guess.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>which I have done that making a type of tuna patty with cream cheese in it and served that on a potato bread roll with fresh arugula and tomato. <

Don't care if you call it a sandwich or not, ChefAllen, that sounds good.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I feel as long as you enjoy it and it's good what is the difference. Everyone here is assumed correct in their definitions.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Escoffier had it easy. He got to name everything officially first without anyone to argue with him.

Phil


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

gutteral laugh......bet anything CHEF Escoffier had many long conversations with contemporaries or sous staff or foodies or editors about defining shtuff....but then that was when omnipotence was channeled with the word chef.

dorkiness, well yeah.....but isn't it fun to think out your philosophy on sandwiches, what defines a sandwich in your mind (and others) what fits the definition but for a mydrid of reasons is an exception.....it's an exercise that is fun, nothing less.

Sandwiches:
bbq, burger, panini, open face, baked with goo (hot brown) po boy, grinder, sub, meatball, gyro....

Not Sandwiches: 
bao,empanadas,turnovers,dang name is not coming to me but the folded over pizza, tacos, peking duck

On the fence: quesadilla....though I'd probably vote "not"

1" of fried bologna? ugh. 1/4" possibly 1/2" but an 1"......:crazy:

Cajuns have a bizarre french fry po boy with gravy and cheese....heart attack in a napkin.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Calzone.


Error message said my reply was too short so this was added.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

CALZONE AND STROMBLLI How could you forget this gourmet fare??:smiles:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Never saw that. Are you sure you're not conflating _poutine_ with a debris po boy? I might have seen some folks eating debris wit cheese, but dey definitely not ****@ss -- tourists fo sho. Better de oysters wit remoulade, cherie.

BDL


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## grlcbrkmyginsu (Apr 24, 2008)

Does anyone else get the feeling that this thread has shied away from the main topic? 

I would define a burger as patty of ground and then cooked food. Salmon, turkey, tofu, soy, beef, tuna. Grind (or shred I suppose) and mash into a patty and cook it, it's a burger. Place said patty onto a bun, it is now not only a burger but a sandwich. Said burger, on its own, is not a sandwich, but once the bun is introduced to the party, we have ourselves a sandwich... Which can be called a burger or a sandwich, usually a burger. It makes sense... kinda...


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

digress? us? never....

If you go deep into Cajun or dare I say ****@ss country and stop at a po-boy/gas station/store.....you may find an old cousine of poutine, remember the Acadians are from Canada...they brought some of the bizarre food wid dem. Mon cher, I'm all about debris and Mother's on Tchopitoulis has killer Ferdis and debris wit grits....soft shell crab poboy or oyster poboy sure sounds good right about now........ me jonsing for N. O.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I've got a burger cookbook here somewhere from the great burger contest in NAPA, a couple of years ago I worked with the coordinating chef....are we still defining burger, if so I'll go find the book if not, not wasting my energy.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Oy. Stop with the energy. Already I'm exhausted. All those stuffed burgers that are really meatloaf like a tzimmes. 

BDL


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

tzimmies? chopped meat wrapped around goo? Mid-Eastern or possibly Polish extraction?...seen it but not familiar with.....but does it come on a bun or between slices of bread?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

No. It's slang for a complicated mess, my last comment was a joke. But since all jokes work better if they include a long explantaion, I'll tell you that a tzimmes is a dish made with a lot of chopped vegetables, mostly carrots that can be cooked overnight in a slow oven (good for Shabbas) until it's completely fubarred (not a yiddish word). It's middle/Eastern European, so the Poland thing was close enough for full marks. 

Why I thought you knew from Jewish humor, I forget.

BDL


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Come on where is the cholent or chunt isnt that a castoulet?


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

blah blah blah. The quintessential chicken or the egg question. On that basis, to me, the defining factor would be what preceeded the following. If the sandwich was first, then the burger is then a variation of the theme.

However, it is also possible that a hamburger is a stand alone menu item that might of merged into a type of sandwich, or through coincidence, developed parallel to the sandwich.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

long time nick shu......where you been? I miss the animal within the animal bawdy thread.......hope you are well.

OY Boys, it's been several years since I've been in the heart of a kosher kitchen for any length of time....though cholent is more than familiar...


So, catagorizing sandwiches in a Linnean (sp?) taxonomy method, what would it look like?

Sandwiches over encompassing
Burgers a subset
turnovers/pies/calazones/empanadas ?
tacos/quesadillas/peking duck?
dumplings?
finger/open faced are sandwiches but seem like they need alittle offshoot
Pate Choux with goo?
taquitos

if any of the resident dorks are feeling super dorky, it'd be fun to see a chart and talk where shtuff would go.....


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

Hiya Shroomgirl, it has been a while. In a nutshell, i have been quite busy over the last 4 years, working for a labour agency. It has been good, from saving small family businesses from themselves to doing sit down dinners for 5000+. However, i think this going to be an interesting year to say the least.

Anyway, i would most likely classify in the following taxonomy:

Sandwiches
Burgers (as a subset. Mcdonalds refers to burgers as sandwiches)
Finger and Open face sandwiches (subset, variation of the theme)

Separate Groupings
Baked Pastries: Empanadas, Turnovers, Pies, Calzone and Choux n goo
Steamed Pastries: Chinese Buns and Dumplings
Tortillas and Pancakes: Quesdillas, Taquitos, Soft Tacos and Peking Duck
Hard Tacos


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

All I have to add is: 

The Earl of Sandwich has a lot to answer for!


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

On the subject of burgers.......










This was in my home page funnies today. Corney yes but I got a kick outta it


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

too funny oldschool.....


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## jsp2786 (Dec 25, 2006)

A hamburger IS a sandwich. Sandwich's consists of .......whatever you like between two slices of bread. Hamburger is just another word for ground beef.....which was also called Hamburg Steak (from germany). Today anything considered ground is tagged with burger (chickenburger, Turkeyburger). But it is still considered a sandwich.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

You're all wrong. The historical stages of precedence go: Frankfurt, Hamburg, Lord Sandwich. The hamburger is a member of the class _frankfurter_, and the _sandwich_ is a further step down the taxonomic tree. All three are processed protein surrounded ("sandwiched," or more properly "franked" like postage stamps) by bread, with various condiments.

That's assuming, of course, that we want to factor in time, as in the modern revisions of the Linnaean system. We could do a straight Linnaean taxonomy, in which case we'd have to decide which _system_ of these foods is the one studied (bread, meat, processing, cooking, condiments...), or a polythetic taxonomy studying all the many factors present in a wide distribution of all these foods, leading to definitions based on statistical variation. Or of course there's always Goethe's morphological system....


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

SUPER DORK!!!! How bout them all, then there could be a discussion on the whys and hows in the differences....:bounce:

Ok Chris, you gotta be a scientist cus culinary schools just don't teach the systems you've mentioned at least not into that kind of detail. 

1976, an 80+ year old Irish nun was teaching microbiology at the college I was attending in New Orleans, our long standing joke was that she was around when there were only 13 elements. Tougher than nails, that petit woman wore a FULL to the ground (not sure if it was wool) habit with headgear, year round in the southern Louisiana heat.....it could be 100+ degrees with 100% humidity and STILL not be raining. Forget ****'s Angels, this woman was tough.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Yay, I'm a bigger dork than you are!

(Actually I'm not a scientist, but I am in part a historian of science. Nobody teaches all these systems -- never did. The old Linnaean system died before the modern version of the polythetic got developed, and Goethe's morphology died when Darwinian evolution rewrote Linnaeus' system. Isn't that interesting? No really, I've published on this, and.... Hello? Hello? Anybody?)

But I still say that properly speaking, hamburgers aren't sandwiches -- sandwiches and hamburgers are weenies. Like me. :crazy:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The amazing thing about Linnaeus in light of modern biological taxonomy which is more genetic than anything else, is how right he was about so very many things. Smart man. Goethe and Darwin, yep. Smart too. Alton Brown? Not quite in the same class.

BDL


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## chef torrie (Mar 1, 2011)

What's up with the 5 year old thread lol.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

Methinks the 5 yr old thead just became about spamburgers.


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## chef torrie (Mar 1, 2011)

Since this thread was just brought to the forefront, I decided to scroll through it. 

The hamburger as we know it today, was first created in my home state of Connecticut, at a place called Louies lunch in New Haven. A place I have been to countless times and still frequent when I am in the New Haven area. They are made the same way they have been since they were created over a hundred years ago. In an upright gas broiler grilled with the onions. Served on toasted sliced white bread, not a bun.


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## emilysmith480 (Apr 16, 2017)

Reading this post, I see people keep referring to the bread as the difference between a burger and a sandwich. But while I agree there's a difference between the two, this is most definitely not it. 

The difference is in the meat. To me, a burger is minced meat put together in pattie form between two pieces of bread. 

A sandwich is any kind of meat/ veggies/ condiments/ whatever you prefer to put between two pieces of bread. 

I like to think of it as a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. 

Therefore, a burger is a sandwich, but a sandwich is not necessarily a burger. 

Think of it this way, if I took a hot dog and put a piece of white bread around it, you wouldn't all of a sudden call it a sandwich. Same with minced, pattied meat. 

The bread doesn't matter. It's all about how the meat is prepared.


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