# S.O.P. for "tasting Spoons" on the line



## dolce restauran

I recently hired a TOP chef who trained at aThomas Keller property, plus two years in Italy at a two star Michelin property,etc.

 We see eye to eye on everything but one:

He was trained/ enculturated  in these "top" restaurants to use a "bain marie" for  tasting spoons on the line. The term , in this context is inaccurate for starters.

His "system" ? A crock of water, which  holds  stirring/tasting spoons that he re submerges in the same water, tasting, stirring, repeatedly , without cleaning or sanitizing at ALL. His defense: He "changes the water frequently, and refills it with hot water!"

I don't want to throw my weight around, because this kid is the real deal, swear to God, talented AND easy to work with. BUT how am I going to convince him how archaic and unsanitary this practice is? Trying to avoid a heavy handed authoritarian approach....

Quoting food code isn't going to get the job done, I can tell you that!

Any advice out there?

GS


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## twyst

It is kind of gross, but I have seen it almost everywhere I have worked as well.

Perhaps put a bain of plastic disposable spoons out on the line.   If they are available, people tend to use them, although they are an added expense.


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## chefross

.....or a drop of bleach or other sanitizer in that water.


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## chefwriter

I'd get ready to throw some weight around. You are the owner and at risk for any food contamination. What he is doing is not right. 

However, you do need to provide an alternative. No one (including yourself) wants to hear about a problem without a solution. 

Sit your chef down and explain the situation in a calm, pleasant professional way. 

I'll bet any amount of money that he did not learn from Thomas Keller or anyone else by doing whatever he wanted or ignoring health department regulations. I seriously doubt this practice is condoned by Keller. 

 You can tell him that you will allow him to continue if the situation is explained and shown to and approved by the health department. 

The bottom line ( and your chef should already know this) is that you are the owner. He answers to you and if you do not approve of something, it does not happen. You should not have to raise your voice to get any point across. When you speak, he listens. If he cannot accept this, he is not the chef you give him credit for  being.


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## flipflopgirl

Some good hard plastic spoons gets my vote, altho you are eventually gonna come across a problem that will have no easy solution. My 2 cents? Go ahead and take the bull by the horns and correct his behavior now, before it spirals out of control. We all know that the age of tasting with the same spoon or God forbid our fingers is long past. I suspect he is testing you, like any other child genius.

mimi


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## petemccracken

The Kitchen Rules:

Do what the Chef says to do in all cases
When in doubt, see rule 1!


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## ed buchanan

I my opinion both wrong. Better houses have DISPOSABLE small plastic tasting spoons. .Use for tasting once and throw away this way no steamtable, no clorox, no boiling water etc.

PS    YOU sign his paycheck , he doesn't sign yours. S who is the boss?


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## kuan

You could go to the thrift store and buy all the teaspoons.  Throw them in a bus tub after he uses them and send them through the dishwasher when you have a big pile. 

First try and ask about the plastic spoons though and then have the above ready as a compromise.


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## meezenplaz

First did you hire his specific habits or did you hire a chef whose experienced and

adaptable to being trained YOUR way?

I would just tell him it's his system, but it's your place,  so its up to him to use it with

proper sanitation procedure. If that means sanitizing the water often, then he can keep

some test paper strips near the Marie and maintain sani-levels. It's HIS system.

But even then you always have to ask yourself, "What if county health walked in right now?"

If your answer is "Meep! I may be sc-ew-"....then change it.

Regarding the disposable plastic tasters, I used em for a while....

but even those add up, theyre like $23.00 for a gross. And with

the "taste-n-toss"  method in a busy kitchen they go fast, believe it.


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## chefross

flipflopgirl said:


> Some good hard plastic spoons gets my vote, altho you are eventually gonna come across a problem that will have no easy solution. My 2 cents? Go ahead and take the bull by the horns and correct his behavior now, before it spirals out of control. We all know that the age of tasting with the same spoon or God forbid our fingers is long past. I suspect he is testing you, like any other child genius.
> mimi


I wouldn't say that the age of tasting with fingers or the same spoon is long past. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the cook probably watched as Thomas Keller did it himself.

What are you guys thinking..............really?

You put this guy on a pedestal and think he is the GOD of food........................please.


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## ed buchanan

You overpaid,  I pay $16.00 per 1000


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## twyst

Chefross said:


> I wouldn't say that the age of tasting with fingers or the same spoon is long past. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the cook probably watched as Thomas Keller did it himself.
> 
> What are you guys thinking..............really?
> 
> You put this guy on a pedestal and think he is the GOD of food........................please.


Agreed. I have seen the spoons in a baine thing at Michelin starred places. Its a very common practice in fine dining. I think its gross, but to say its not happening all over any more is a little misguided.


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## cheflayne

I admire Thomas Keller greatly. My experience with people that have worked for him, is that in their eyes they had already been to the mountain top and it wasn't me sitting there, so I had little that they cared to hear.

I gave up on trying logic, reason, explanations. I resorted to "It is not Thomas Keller's restaurant nor his name on the paycheck. This is the way we do things here. If you can't get on board with that you know where the door is." It was always said without anger, pride, or ego. A simple statement of facts.


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## dolce restauran

Okay. These responses have been very helpful everyone.
New Years resolution: My way or the Highway! I also may take the idea of asking the health inspector in and have the chef try to defend this practice


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## vic cardenas

If he's doing everything else right and you're only asking him to change_ *one*_ of his bad habits, that's not much to ask. Most every chef has to adapt to any new restaurant a few of their habits. No restaurant is exactly like the next one and most chefs realize this and can change a few of their habits, good or bad. If he can't, he's not the god you make him out to be.


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## foodpump

I 'd say a compromise

Wunderkind can keep his "Bain marie", just not in the steam table...

I'm with Kuan on this one, buy some old s/s teaspoons or some cheapos from Ikea or such, dirty ones go into "bain marie" at the dishpit., clean ones in 1/9th isert on the line.

If the  health inspector ever "picks up" on the dirty bai marie, wunderkind gets to pay the fine..............


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## meezenplaz

Actually I think it WAS 25.00 for 1000 Chef BUCHANAN, but I still paid more,

and they still seemed to go awfully fast.

A Siegfried quote comes to mind here:

"Shtarker....zees ees KA-OS--vee dont DO zat here!"


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## rdm magic

Even at 16$ per 1000, you'd easily use 5k per week in a busy restaurant. 80 bucks a week, around 4000 bucks a year.. Thats quite an expenditure for one guys bad habits.

Dolce, what was the solution before this guy came?


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## michaelga

teach the chef some 'good' habits for tasting... that don't involve throwing away plastic spoons unless he's bringing that extra money with him.

you don't also have to buy him 'special' chef tasting spoons but you could to inflate his ego even more and get him to immediately ask for a raise and to follow less rules!

any chef that can't get a dish washer or waitress to drop a few dozen spoons for him to use and throw back into the dish pit when done isn't a real chef ...

... this guy sounds like a prima-going-ta-make-a-headache...

The nonsense about high-end places doing it is pure nonsense... complete BS.... it makes my blood boil... do you think that they aren't inspected?  They get special rules?

...just the HAACP from the sous-vide brings the inspectors around 2 times a month... 

BS from people who either did things wrong there (or more likely never worked there)

No Double Dipping or Sharing unless related by blood or marriage!


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## cheflayne

I use stainless steel demitasse spoons. Cost is about $1.00 a dozen. For $20.00 you get 240. When you hit a 120 one time uses, send them to the dishwasher and while they are being washed you still have another 120 ready to use.


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## meezenplaz

I like the reusability of the metal ones,eventually paying for themselves,

slightly larger than the plastic tasters, and the cheapo demi's wouldnt get

mixed up with any other serviceware.

Not a bad idea, depending on the kitchen.


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## chrisli

What is the proper way sanitise spoons on the line in a busy kitchen?


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## petemccracken

ChrisLi said:


> What is the proper way sanitise spoons on the line in a busy kitchen?


For me, you don't. The line is not equipped to clean or sanitize.

Container of clean, sanitized spoons and a container for dirty, contaminated spoons. Before the first gets empty, fill it and before the second gets full, empty it.


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## emiliomtf

Are you currently using disposable spoons in order to taste the dishes ?

How many spoons ?


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## cheflayne

one spoon per tasting


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## emiliomtf

Thank you. Have you already known/used the "two spoon tasting method" ?


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## cheflayne

No I have never used that method. Not sure that I follow the logic of it.


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## emiliomtf

Here what I learnt :

"Remove a sample of a product from the container with one spoon.

Transfer the product sample onto a second spoon, away from the original food container or preparation area.

Sample the product by tasting "


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## cheflayne

Yes I am familiar with the process, but I fail to see what it accomplishes as far as safety and sanitation.


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## kuan

Throwaways.


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## dantesdishes

Emiliomtf said:


> Here what I learnt :
> 
> "Remove a sample of a product from the container with one spoon.
> 
> Transfer the product sample onto a second spoon, away from the original food container or preparation area.
> 
> Sample the product by tasting "





cheflayne said:


> Yes I am familiar with the process, but I fail to see what it accomplishes as far as safety and sanitation.


The point that was under-presented here is that spoon 1 and spoon 2 do not touch, ever. Spoon 1 is used to move sample from the source and *drop* it on to spoon 2. With this method, it's highly recommended that the chef have his or her own small bowl; this allows them to give food time to cool, or to cut into sizable pieces as well as test for done-ness. (I use a tiny round baking dish about 2.5" in diameter and .5" deep)

It cuts down on the amount of spoons you need (only one per food, as you can use the same spoon multiple times for the same food type). However, if you have the resources, your best bet is to compromise with a large set of tasting spoons as described earlier (bin for clean and bin for dirty, clean and replenish clean bin before it is empty)

Good luck!


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## Karen Nicholson

What about two bins one with Vodka (to sanitize) and the other a water rinse after Vodka (to remove any Vodka taste)? Used spoons could then go back into the pure Vodka bin. I would be interested to know if this would pass health department standards for killing off germs, bacteria etc. I thought a hot plate with a pan of boiling water but spoons would have to be cooled off so as not to be too hot to the mouth so that’s not practical. The solution should be easy and quick. Cheap Vodka seems like a possible cleaner alternative & certainly a little better option than just plain water and better than a bleach water which seems too strong smelling / tasting in my opinion. Added flavors and smells which don’t dissipate quickly would defeat the purpose of getting the pure taste of what is being tasted. If Vodka not a health code passable standard, then plenty of one-time use clean spoons and a used bin is the only other choice. Safety is #1 & always should be. I am not a fan of plastic waste spoons for the obvious waste reasons.


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## foodpump

You can't possibly be serious? A quart of vodka per service to sanitize tasting spoons?!!

Trot off to Ikea, or even Value village and buy as many soup spoons as you can for $10.00, anything as long as it doesn't match the pattern of your guest's cutlery. Put these in a 1/9 insert on the line, and have a matching 1/9 insert at the dish pit. Use the spoons one time, toss 'em in the dish pit, and re-use, re-cycle all over again. No need to buy vodka or plastic spoons!


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## Karen Nicholson

I don’t disagree with the spoon concept at all (it is better than plastic). That being said, who suggested it would take a quart of vodka? ... as long as the alcohol is there, no need to replace it each time. Cover & save for the next day with a new set of spoons? It is only an idea / suggestion ...


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## foodpump

Soaking a spoon in vodka isn't going to clean it. Say you taste a cream sauce, the soaking in vodka won't remove the residual sauce clinging on to the spoon, and like it or not, there will be food debris at the bottom of the container, albeit sanitized food debris at the end of the shift. I guess you could strain the vodka through a chinoise, but it would make a whole lot more sense to have dedicated metal tasting spoons that you could run through the d/washer any time you needed it.


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## foodpump

Soaking a spoon in vodka isn't going to clean it. Say you taste a cream sauce, the soaking in vodka won't remove the residual sauce clinging on to the spoon, and like it or not, there will be food debris at the bottom of the container, albeit sanitized food debris at the end of the shift. I guess you could strain the vodka through a chinoise, but it would make a whole lot more sense to have dedicated metal tasting spoons that you could run through the d/washer any time you needed it.


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## foodpump

Soaking a spoon in vodka isn't going to clean it. Say you taste a cream sauce, the soaking in vodka won't remove the residual sauce clinging on to the spoon, and like it or not, there will be food debris at the bottom of the container, albeit sanitized food debris at the end of the shift. I guess you could strain the vodka through a chinoise, but it would make a whole lot more sense to have dedicated metal tasting spoons that you could run through the d/washer any time you needed it.


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## flipflopgirl

Karen Nicholson said:


> I don't disagree with the spoon concept at all (it is better than plastic). That being said, who suggested it would take a quart of vodka? ... as long as the alcohol is there, no need to replace it each time. Cover & save for the next day with a new set of spoons? It is only an idea / suggestion ...


This is just plain silly.
Not too long ago CT had a SOP stating the pro threads were exclusive to those members with experience in the biz.
Seems it fell by the wayside after the big site update.
...just say'in...

mimi

edit to ask...what the heck is supposed to happen on November 25, 2058?


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## chefross

It's not about the spoons foodpump.....Chuckle, smile, snort......


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## meezenplaz

"Cant find the spoon, that we once had....
The sugar cubes, will melt no more!" 

I have to side with FP here, making a "spoon bath" out of vodka, even cheap wodka, 
seems a bit silly. Sure plastic tasters are easy to use, disposable, but even though 
you buy them in bulk, its an expense--its amazing how fast you go thru say, 500 of those
things, and with one taste, then dump, that expense adds up. Small metal spoons set aside
for that purpose--after the taste it just becomes another dirty dish, off to the sanitation 
engineers for refurbishing.


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## nicolas Aithaddi

chefwriter said:


> I'll bet any amount of money that he did not learn from Thomas Keller or anyone else by doing whatever he wanted or ignoring health department regulations. I seriously doubt this practice is condoned by Keller.


Actually in the series Masterclass Thomas Keller mention using that bain marie techniques. I still thinks it's a weird system of stirring saliva in a bain marie throughout the service.
https://www.masterclass.com/classes/thomas-keller-teaches-cooking-techniques


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## patblue

100% on board with foodpump on this - that is the way I have learned it as well
You have clean tasting spoons and a tray for the used ones (1 time use).
The used tray is checked in certain intervals - depending on the severity of service - and was, during my time, one of the job responsibilities of the sous-chef.

We never had any problem with this method - trays were colored coded to indicate clean and dirty (green and red color) and I'm not sure, but I would reckon we had about 300 spoons in circulation (120 covers)

Plastic was frowned upon by the owners (very early adapters to the green movement) and I'm pretty sure if you'd used the "Keller method" Chef would have kicked you out in an instance (old school German Exec. Chef we had).


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## jimmer

I had a cook who would drop a bit on her hand and lick it off. Weird, but sanitary. More or less ;?)


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## chefross

I've been reading all the threads and wonder why places just don't have a small Baine Marie insert on the line with plastic one use throw away spoons?


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