# The Bakers Dozen



## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Have any of your read the Thanksgiving issue of Gourmet Magazine yet? They had a interesting article called 'baking lessons'.

It sounds so incredible....a group of pastry chefs has formed a group to 'pool experiences. "Baking professionally can be isolating" explains one of the group founders (hum, I couldn't agree more). It started as 40 people and they've grown to 350 members. They don't have a news letter, but they meet to talk recipes, experiment and share results. There's a couple heavy weights in the group like Flo Braker and Marion Cunningham yet it's open to any serious bakers. Thier mission is to learn and pass on their knowledge to others.....very very cool!

They are publishing a book this month and it's definately looking like a must have! Some of their editors include: Alice Medrich, Peter Reinhart and Lindsey Shere...

They published a sample list of tips from this group.....wow, this could be the baking book of the year (I have my fingers crossed).....


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Oops, I forgot to mention the name of the book is going to be "The Baker's Dozen Cookbook" since that's the name of their group.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The original Baker's Dozen started in California. There is now an east coast branch as well. In conjunction with the book they are doing an East Coast tour this month. Sunday Nov. 18th from 1:00-4:00, Peter Reinhart, Flo Braker, Fran Gage, David Leibowitz ans Carolyn Weil will be doing a demo @Sur La Table in Manhasset, NY (Long Island). Monday Nov. 19th at 6:30 our very own m brown will be teaching a Restaurant Desserts class @Sur La Table! The Baker's Dozen will be meeting that same evening @The Institute of Culinary Education (Formerly Peter Kump's) in NYC. I weaseled an invite


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thanks for sharing, Wendy and Kyle!


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I'm sure it will be worth buying.

Kyle, when did PK's change its name?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

About 6 weeks ago. I think it was to help build up the career program.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I've been watching this book, bookstores in town haven't received it yet. Reading about it online, I had the impression it was a pretty basic book, has anyone seen it?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hey you guys, not fair...I want to go!

MBrown your too modest! I saw you mention doing that demo but you didn't link the whole thing into this event, way way way auesome! What are you making????? How much time do you have, how many people/seats, are they tasting too? You must give us poor people who can't attend some details and maybe a photo (hint, hint).

Someone needs to ask them how we can get more satilite groups happening. AND make them break down and ship out a news letter to me, please!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Isa you might not get it totally, it's about breaking the science and techinque down into exact detail. To qoute them "In some cases the difference between a chocolate cake and a brownie is just a matter of how you mix the ingredients". If your read my posts you'll know that I'm a total detail NUT, cause I've learned that it's everything, with baking.

How about the photo of everyone holding their angel food cake? I LOVE IT! Try to have a conversation with some chefs about baking and they don't get it (baking), they think were nuts, can't understand why she can make this and he can't with the same recipe, duh! It's all in the details. What exactly makes the perfect angel food cake, more than a recipe and skill.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

That sounds like a great book Wendy. Just goes to proove you can not judge a book by it's cover. It's on my wishlist now, and it is your fault.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I bought the book yesterday. I'm reading every word, no skimming or peeking ahead. I read up to about page 35 and have been pleased to read a couple things that I agree (and I have been doing for years with-out any written work to back my thoughts) with that seem to buck the known. One being that some cakes taste better with ap. flour then cake flour. The other being where I place cakes in the oven.

Also, I was pleased to read Alice Medrichs details on chocolate. I've always gotten stuck on the difference between fine chocolate and couveture. I really didn't think there was one. According to this there is a difference in refining/processing. Even though they may have the same amount of chocolate liquer couveture is more refined, having less grain. They also named a couple different well known brands and I learned a bit from that too.

Alot of the info. appears to be the same old, like info. on pans and ingredients. BUT finally there's somethings written that make sense with what I've experienced. Like I've had problems with some super non-stick bundt pans. They tell you to dial down 25 degrees with those. I will definately try that in the future. 

I'm certain anyone who bakes professionally will enjoy the read! They do try to address both professional and non professional baking issues. Plus I like the fact that they state their preferences. For instance some books saturate you with info. on flours (really about gluten), I thought they cut nicely through the over abundance of facts and dirrectly make the difference in need to know info. between cake bakers and bread bakers.

Oh by the way, there were a couple other nice new books out. Don't ask me their titles (it's too late at night for me to think), but one was on plated desserts. By a NYC pastry chef, it was nice because he bridges traditional and contempory tastes in his flavors and yet had great contempory plating (along the lines of the Chocolatier books). Plus I found a little book on wedding cakes...in the bake of the book she gives sources for the 'top' cake decorators around the country. (I took notes in the book store) Now I have a ton of new web sites to check out.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I'll definitely look for the Baker's Dozen book. Sounds like a good one.

Do you recall the title of the wedding cake book?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Kimmie and Isa seemed less than impressed with The Baker's Dozen book. I'm going to find a Barnes & Noble this weekend and have a look.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

W.Debord,

Thanks for sharing with us all some details, I think I know what to buy my pastry chef for the holidays.

Has anyone read "The making of a pastry chef" by andrew Maclauclan? he's the pastry chef at the coyate Cafe.
It's a blend of top pastry chefs talking "shop" with oneanother in a very frank manner and it's intertwined with fantastic recipes.
Some of the contributers are
nancy silverton
Hannah glasse
Lindsey shere
Sherry Yard
Jim Graham
Dan Budd
Emily Luchetti
Francois Payard
Richard leach
Michele Gayer
Claudia flemming
Wayne Brachman
Nick malgeri
and many more,

I really enjoyed this read because it took me into the world of the Pastry Chef,and I think all Chefs should have a solid understanding of this art.

It's a John Wiley and sons publication.

I think you folks might enjoy it
cc


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I'll have to put that one on the list too.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I have it cape chef. I haven't given it much attention actually. When I read it it's too close to me, like it's my personal notes on the industry. I didn't feel like I was learning anything from it, but it is nice to have others confirm your thoughts, so from that perpective I enjoyed it.

I never thought about it before but having chefs reading it would be VERY nice. I wish all head chefs would read it. 

As far as buying 'The Bakers Dozen' for your pastry chef, I don't know....there's alot of baking books out there that would tear me up in excitement if my chef bought it for me as a gift. The pro books are hard to buy (Expensive) if your not finacially 'on your feet' like a younger chef an expensive book like Herme's is mind blowing.

Momoreg the cake book is small and it does show some clean nice cakes but you probably wouldn't want to buy it..... Are you interested for the same reasons I was, the names of decorators? I only wrote down the ones that had web sites about 50% of them. If you want any of them I can post them to help you.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Thanks for the info Wendy,

My pastry chef michael gave me that book a couple of years ago and it helped me tune in better to his world,But then I ate to much chocolate 

Every year I buy my kichen staff a cook book,but always buy my pastry chef something different and special.

Last year I got my staff "becoming a Chef" by Dorenburg and page and I got my pastry chef " a mondernest view of plated desserts".
This year I'm getting my sous chefs a subscription to art culinaire and my cooks " in madelienes kitchen" but I'm still not sure what to get for Micheal.

Any ideas ???
cc


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

CC,

Check out In The Sweet Kitchen or Claudia Fleming's The Last Course.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry Isa but i totally disagree with your choice of 'In the Sweet Kitchen', it's not a pro-pastry persons kind of book (ask Angry, Momoreg and MBrown, maybe I'm all wet, but.... I don't think so). Claudia Flemmings book is nice but look thru it first, because she takes desserts where I can't (can't sell them is what I mean).

Anything by Joel Bellouet or Herme are amazing and inspiring and building blocks for all pastry work. The last flier issued from JB Prince had at least 5 books that looked wonderful.

But those choices aren't $50. and under. If your need to stay under $50. 'The Bakers Dozen' would be one of my picks as would all the Chocolatier books, 'Baking With Julia", Martha's dessert book and tons more. The new book I saw yesterday had some very nice plated work.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I never read "In the Sweet Kitchen", so it's hard to say whether I'd enjoy it from a professioal point of view, but Martha and Chocolatier are also geared to home cooks!

As far as wedding cakes, I just love looking at pictures of other people's work. If the book isn't that great, I guess I'll settle for some good websites, if you find any (hint, hint). 

I have bought some of those very big Australian magazines with wedding cake ideas (mostly geared towards the consumer), and they are usually filled with gorgeous cakes!


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Thanks for the plug Kyle!
I will be demoing Mile High Key Lime Pie, Gran Suman Chocolate cake, S'mores Tart. Added attractions will be fruit coulis, lolly popped orange, bee hive chocolate, espresso caramel and chocolate pepper tuiles.
I will be sure to pick up a copy of the book while I am at Sur la Table!:bounce: 

I will also be demoing Wedding cake in January and will demo at William-Sanoma Dec.7.

Busy mommy.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Break a leg. Please let us know how it goes.

What's Gran Suman choc. cake?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Here's a few:

www.sweetlisas.com
www.anapazcakes.com
www.rivierabakehouse.com
www.konditormeister.com
www.weddingcakeonline.com
www.fourbakers.com
www.scrumptions.com
www.sonomaweddingcakes.com
www.justfabulouspastries.com
www.cakework.com
www.fourbakers.com


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

M Brown,

Best of luck, How exciting!!!

Three children and a great career! How do you do it? 
cc


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

W., thanks for the links. The first one on the list is Sweet Lisa's. She's my main competition here in CT, and there are very few other talented cake designers in the area. She is the pastry chef who preceded me at my most recent job (the one I left in August).


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Gran Suman is a single estate Chocolate from El Rey Brand. Super intence.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Cape Chef, as a pro. pastry chef and home cook ---I really enjoyed Cookwise and continually thumb the pages when I get stumped scientifically. 
Though Chocolatier magazine is geared towards home cooks, I do love it and get great ideas. Their recipes are better than Martha's(though she does have good ideas). I have not had the chance to glance thru "In the Sweet Kitchen" nor C. Fleming's book. 
If your pastry chef is interested in breads, a good one is "Artisan Baking across America". Love it.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

That's a wild conciedence Momoreg, my list has many more names I just picked random names off my list.... Have you ever talked with her? ....The pastry chef who preceded me at my last job came back after I left, (seems crazy since I heard some strange stories about his time there) but actually if I knew how to contact him, I would. We'd have some great laughs.

I should have looked closer at 'who published' that wedding cake book. I wonder how they compiled this list of decorators? Next time I'm near that book store I double check and post the name, incase you want to look it up. It was geared to the bride to be, it's subject was, how to chose a wedding cake. Although I found it in the baking section it could be sold in the section with bridal books too.

Have you peeked at www.justfabulouspastries.com yet? They have been my favorite site so far. Truely impressive all the way thru their site. I really really admire their work!

Also I'm really lost at the wide range of prices I've seen. Starting at $2. and up to $9.00 per person. Granted the only one charging $9. (so far) is the one I just mentioned (J.F.P.) but it's great to see someone getting paid for their art.
(Colettes Cakes, Ron Isreal and Sylivia W. don't post $, but I'd love to know what they get.)

I've also been trying to find out what the average floral centerpiece price is and what they charge for cake tops, etc... So far I haven't found leading (hot designers or at least contempory) florists sites with posted prices, does anyone know of a lead?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Last night I attended The Baker's Dozen Cookbook event @The Institute of Culinary Education. Quite the guest list; Peter Reinhart, Fran Gage, Carolyn Weil, Flo Braker, David Leibovitz and Robert Morocco represented the authors. The audience included Nick Malgieri, Claudia Flemming, Amy Scherber, Lauren Groveman and Rose Levy Beranbaum. Quite the group! The rest of the group was composed of 50% professional bakers and 50% weekend warriors. They demoed a couple of things (the flat bread/crackers and lemon chiffon cream puffs from the book) and then answered questions. I asked a question about why the crust on my sourdough softens as the bread cools. I can't imagine anything cooler than getting feed back from Peter Reinhart, Fran Gage, Amy Scherber and Lauren Groveman all at the same time! What I continue to be impressed by is the approachability of the the professionals in the culinary world. You folks make pursuing this "addiction" exciting


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

and what was the answer to your question, KyleW?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Steam Kills! I need to allow for the steam to escape the crumb while the bread is still in the oven. If I don't it will escape as the bread cools. This is what softens the crust. I am going to try not spritzing, just using the pan under the stone. I am also going to try and gradually decrease the temperature of the oven as the bread bakes, ending up by turning the oven off and leaving the bread in for 10 minutes.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Sounds great KyleW. Thanks.  

It must have been an awesome evening. Got Claudia's authograph by any wonderful chance?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Now THAT sounds like fun. Are these events open to the public?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I think so, as long as you are willing to pay dues  There is a Baker's Dozen East. I will see if I can find out how to join/contact them.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Way too cool of an experience! I don't know if you read through their book before the event, but, during the question period did you hear any further interesting tips you could pass on to us? 

I really really hope this club spreads across the country!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I think I was too star struck to remember anything other than the sourdough crust thing


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Now that's really funny Kyle. :lol: :lol:


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Momoreg the wedding cake book I refered to is titled, "The Perfect Wedding Cake" by Kate Manchester. It's for brides to guide them thru buying their wedding cake. Nice lists of references thru out the country (where I found sweetlisas.com).

The pastry book I refered to earilier is "Sweet Seasons" by Richard Leach from Park Ave. Cafe, NYC.
It's all plated desserts, I thought it looked very nice, contempory yet grounded. 

I saw these at Barnes N Noble....


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Kylie this is what I do BUT I use an electrical oven and NOT gas.
Our ovens are more dry that the gas ones and they let the steam off

Have you ever baked in an electrical oven? I wonder how I am gonna get used to baking with gas in NY...


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Fear not Athenaeus! New York is a city rife with electric ovens, my EasyBake oven included


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Thanks, Wendy.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

To blazes with adding ice cubes or a steam atomizer. Increasing baking temperature has been the solution for obtaining crunchy crusts. Formerly I baked bread at 425-450 F. The crust was tough and semi soft. My electric oven which contains a baking stone is preheated to 475 for one hour preceding loaf insertion. The bread bakes at 475 for 10-15 minutes after which the heat is reduced to 450. Total baking time is 1 hour. The crust turns out veeeerrrrry crunchy. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Sorry for sounding narrow minded by I have always to answer to the question if the defendant is quilty or not... 

So, judging from Kylie's and Kokopuff's posts, electric ovens are the best for baking bread...

Let me drop a line to Santa...


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Well, Athenaeus, let me recommend my Suzy Homemaker oven that uses a 75 watt lightbulb as a heating element!


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Thanks Kokopuffs. 

I think that it would be very fun if you could come and see a traditional way to bake bread in our traditional ovens.
If you ever visit Greece ask to see one of those. 
But the fireplace can do just fine also 
And the bread is ALWAYS crusty


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

I think that this forum is something like the Baker's Dozen, only more organized and much more active. My teacher in school is a member, but she said that they rarely met nor had events. But when they did, they do have interesting discussions much like the ones we have. It's the reason why I like it here so much. The only thing we don't have (or maybe we do and I don't know it) are the more well-known pastry artists and bakers who make groups like the Baker's Dozen famous. Perhaps we could get a more well-known member of the Baker's Dozen to be the guest of one of our live chats. Or we can all agree to try making one identical recipe and share the results on line. We can be more scientific about our observations and come to some conclusions. What I wish of The Baker's Dozen is that they would play more of an advocacy role in setting standards. But judging from the personality of the group, that'll be highly unlikely.

I do know someone at work who is friends with Flo Braker. Maybe I can find out through her whether Ms. Braker might be interested in checking out this bulletin board every once in a while.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Monpetitchoux,

With the use of pseudonyms like we do on Cheftalk, you never know who you're talking to...


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

How do you mean, "play more of an advocacy role in setting standards"?

I wish your idea of us testing recipes here would work, but I think the most important thing that's shared physically in a room together is taste then sight. We can't compare because we need to be able to taste and see each others work. Plus the other point is procedure, which they've re-stated just how important that is in their angel food cake bake-off. You have to really be scientic in taking notes as you work to find the proceedural differences'.

Unforunately I can't see how we could dig much deeper on line then we do now. One thing that would be nice is more feed back when a recipe is offered by the people who asked for the recipe, 'was it good'? ..."did you ever make that"...etc...

I do favor trying/baking posted recipes when two or more people have weighed in their opinion on a specific recipe!


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

Hi Wendy,

What I am after is a standardized weighing and measuring system. Since weighing will yield more consistent results over measuring in cups, I would like to have it standardized in weights. For example, I have come to equate 1 cup of sugar to weigh 5 ounces. But some people will say it is less, some will say it is more. Also, tablespoons of different shapes will hold different amounts. It's supposed to be 15 ml, but it isn't always so. I suppose the government is the only entity that can set standards and hold companies producing measuring equipment to them, but until that happens, it would simply be easier if we can all agree professionally what one cup of flour weighs. Since there are very well-respected pastry chefs and bakers in the group, I think they have the power to persuade the rest of us to a standard or measurement in weights. I know that I am very anal retentive about this, but it drives me nuts! The other thing is that I wish books published in the US would also list ingredients in metrics. As there are many cookbook authors also in the group, I know they can persuade the publishers to do this. In most cases, it's just simple arithmetic and can't cost that much more in priting costs. So unfortunately, my cooking school teacher said that this topic came up for discussion once at a baker's Dozen meeting and the members present couldn't agree. I'm not sure whether members even want what I want, but that's what I want.

Also, don't you think it would be fun if we really could get together in the same room and all make one recipe and look and taste? I don't know where we could find a place with so many ovens or even be able to organize such an event, but hey, we've succeeded in some get togethers.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Well of course that would be very fun Monpetitechoux. I have my fingers crossed that one day I'll hear about a Chicago chapter of the bakers dozen....

P.S. You forgot to add in the factor that all ovens don't bake the same.


I don't mind the decrepancys in standardized weights....thats the point that seperates the novice from the experienced baker. You just know when to go which way. After all, you have to remember that weather plays a roll in you weights and some flours weight more than others...you can't account for humidity.

Converting recipes does waste time. But I can get a chuckle out of that....I'll spend my time doing that for a good recipe. Many of my peers won't, that's great by me...their missing out of some great homemaker recipes. 

I noticed you can buy small silpats everywhere now (their not cheap either) I wonder why the gadget companies aren't pushing using weights?


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

You are a true artist, Wendy, and one day, I hope to be able to see you in person. The reason I say that is because once you've mastered the science of cooking, it is only then that you can truly become an artist in the kitchen, in my humble opinion. Just knowing when and how to adjust for humidity in the air is a simplest of artistic touches.

Ever noticed how intimate we become with our ovens? We take care to find out their every intricacy and hidden secret. And, then, like a hopeless lover, we manipulate our products in the the parameters set by the oven to get what we want. Yesterday, I tried to explain to a guy on the line why he couldn't go into the top oven and had to use the lower oven. In the end, I simply said, "the madeleines like to be on top and that's that." At least he understood.

Yep, I'm getting pretty good at multiplying by a factor of 28.5 as well. If I were in marketing at a gadgets company, I would market scales by convincing the home baker that it's the only way to get professional results at home. That this is the way that all professional bakers do to get consistent results. Then I would of course include a volume to weights conversion chart in both metrics and the English system. Then I would wine and dine those at the Baker's Dozen for them to come up with the chart and endorse the product. Then the scales would be flying off the shelves.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Boy can I relate to your madeleine story! I've had that conversation soooo many times. My favorite was trying to explain to the guy the difference in temps settings between a convection and a standard oven (air flow etc...) ...Then factor in our specific oven, how 350 on our top oven is really baking at 425 and the bottom convection set at 350 is really baking at 400. They all look at me as if I'm from MARS. "BUT we had the ovens calabrated", they say and I try to explain why that doesn't apply to their souffle. I'm not that good with words!

After awhile I just gave up, there wasn't anyway even through demo that they'd believe me. We used to sell alot of chocolate souffles and had several parties order cheese souffles as their entree....they'd set the oven on 400 (what the recipe called for) and the out-side would be scorched and the inside runny(because the real temp the convection was baking at was 475).

Yes, it's weird how well you know your ovens when your a baker. It's your violin........


My husband is an engineer type. He cooks completely by time and temp. I've struggled with him for years over his techinque...I cook meat by temp. etc...anyway he's finally winning his point with me. It's totally embarassing to admit, but he can land his baked chicken better than me, totally!!!! Then I read an article in (I think it was gourmet magazine) about a group of chefs and scientists (almost exactly like the bakers dozen) who have been running experiments on cooking meat. They are scientically proving that searing isn't sealing in juice. That lower temp.s are actually making your meats more tender, etc... Some really 'out there' stuff that goes against everything we all learned. 

It's actually an exciting time in this field. Running tests, proving things scientically will completely change how we do things.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Oh speaking of foodtv....on the same episode 'best of' they featured Dufflets in Canada. WOW double WOW 5 million plus a year! and they haven't been around very long......... 

Totally amazing story. Thanks to whom ever mentioned them!! I did look them up on line. I was impressed with the visual quality and the selection. But seeing the whole operation on tv rounded out my whole impression. It's like watching Cinderella (I wish I was that cinderella).

P.S. I know the exchange rate is different between Canada and the States but I don't understand it really (the exact exchange amount). The prices on her cakes are sky high for us but aren't they still high for Canadains?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Have you been here Wendy? @ Gloria Green or @ Dufflet Pastries of Toronto? Also, Click here for some of their recipes.

Expensive but excellent!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks Kimmie, I spent alot of time at Dufflets....I love her choices/selections/combinations etc...


So you consider her prices rather high too? Are other bakeries charging similar prices by you?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dufflets is "high end" and without a doubt, we are willing to pay a little more for high quality product. I think all "high end" bakeries charge similar prices.

I suppose you know about _Vosges Haut Chocolat_ in Chicago. They make these scrumptious exotic truffles, Mmmm. They are pricey too but look and taste their product!

I'm worth it!!


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

Flo Braker, Carolyn Weil, Evie Lieb were holding a demonstration at Draeger's Market in San Mateo last week and I got to go for free. Carolyn Weil and Flo Braker said that they tried and tried and tried to get the publishers of their new book to list the ingredients by weight but the publishers wouldn't do it. Throughout the demo, they kept emphasizing their preference for measuring ingredients by weight. But then they didn't have a standard to follow. It gets tricky, they said, when measuring brown sugar because everyone packs it differently. So the point that I wanted to make was that it only comes into concern when we measure for existing recipes. But there is no reason not to set the weight in new recipes being written. But there is no real reason to set a standard for brown sugar anyway (for me it's 7 oz. or 200 grams per dry cup). Well, Flo Braker said that she'd mail me a flyer for their next meeting coming in January, so I'll let you know how that goes.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Interesting monpetitchoux, sounds logical to me. Except why publishers wouldn't list both weights and cups??. It's not like they couldn't do both.....Too much space? Ha. 

Hope you'll let us know what you learn in the future from this talented group....I look forward to it.


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