# what is a japonaise? and other questions...



## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Have a question, have an answer? 
What is the weiredest thing a customer/boss asked you for?

japonaise=meringue layers made with ground toasted almonds. great with ganach and butter cream. (light and heavy, yin and yang)


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

M Brown,

"japonaise" is actually a item,usually meat that is garnished with Chinese or japonese artichokes. I have not been able to find japonaise as it refers to meringue. Funny though, My pastry chef was also stumped when he heard what I told him it meant. Because he also refers to this almond meringue as you do. I have also heard this type of meringue called Jocoba (sp)But what you refer to I understand as being Fond de succes
Can you enlighten me on where you found that term used for meringue....You've peaked my interest TIA.
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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I'm sorry!!Back to the question.

I make this App called seafood martini. In which I place In a martini glass a little chiffinade of lettuce a couple of 16/20 shrimp a little Maryland crab meat and lobster medallions. I plop a little vodka and lemon sorbet in the middle and a little grated horseradish remoularde sauce.....well one time a customer asked one of the servers to ask the Chef if he could take out the vodka from the sorbet because she didn't drink..Guess what the scary part was? The server actually asked me to do it. I looked at him like I was from outer space,slowly smiled....and said just get a life
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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

This was the first pastry paper i had to write for RJ Coppage, the great bread and baking instructor at J&W (now at cia). I had no idea where to find it so I asked a sophmore and got the answer, "Look it up!" I must have found it in the Larousse as that was my only source back then. or it was in the avi baking manuals.

but it is almond meringue layers. I have the paper to prove it!!!


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

M brown.You never have to prove anything to me! I have a great deal of respect for you.
It is however not in Larousse as a Almond Meringue...it is in Larousse as I stated above. I will keep "looking it up though"
Hey I also went to J&W







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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Nanna, thank you for your research. I have not seen it done that way..but it sounds very tasty....Those little caramel candies look awfully good








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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Ohmygod! I won the Renshaw Cup a million years ago and part of the prize was a trip to England and weeks seminars at the company headquarters in Mitchum Surry!
Thank you Nanna for posting that site!! I wrote and thanked them!
Wow,


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Japonaise is the almond meringue, as I know it. I never knew about the meat and artichoke one. 

I also went to J&W, and Japonaise referred, not only to the meringue, but also the classical torte made with that meringue. Where is my J&W book? I have to find it. Why do I think it had coffee buttercream? Yeah, and it was garnished with a disk of pink marzipan, and ground almonds up the sides? Does this ring a bell for you, mbrown?

By the way, I'm so jealous of anyone who had chef Coppedge. I had Opotzner. 

On a sidenote, my assistant (who is 21), garduated from the Connecticut Culinary Institute, and guess who her bread instructor was? Opotzner! That man has a lot of chutzpah! He must be over 80 by now.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Now how cool is that!!!!!I love the way this whole internet thing works sometimes
M Brown That's quite a presteges award.
I'm not worthy
between you and momoreg, you could rule the world














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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Ok Ok Ok I get it
Look it up in Larousse! You will see the Asian one I am talking about.....
I truly appreciate your help. You guys are the best....I will leave this thread alone (maybe)Or you guys will ring my Cloche!!
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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

My calculation, Chef Opotzner is 103! He was a dear man and my first bread instructor, I made knot rolls until the cows came home! Coppage was the advanced bread man, he is probibly the sharpest tack I ever encountered when it came to the art of baking bread. 
The Japonise torte you refer to is, by my memory correct. For the hallway I worked with Constance Brown the photographer recording each cake ( I visited this past fall and they are still there!). My first food styling gig. good times........................


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

In retrospect, did we really have to do that many knot rolls? I think it was maybe a bit of overkill. But he was a sweet, albeit crotchety man. I don't know of Constance Brown. How long did you stay in food styling? I did it for a couple of weeks, for Chocolatier. It was a lot of fun.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

There is a recipe for Japonais in the Time-Life book Patisserie. It is a almond meringue, of oval shape. The two disk of meringue are sandwich with a buttercream. The sides are aslso brush with buttercream and rolled in almond pralin. You can also have Japonais rolled in white pralin. 

There is no reference of this pastry in the Larousse Gastronomique

A ice cream bomb made of iced green tea and peach ice cream is called Japonaise.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Sorry M Brown, by the time I got down the page I forgot you had posted the definition of the Japonais...


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Nice to meet you, LoriB. Welcome to cheftalk.


Since we have so many alumni here, when did you all attend? I went from '84-'86.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

78/80 but please don't tell anyone!!!!







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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

LoriB, Please excuse me for not saying hi!!
So Hi!!!!!!!!
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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I won't tell anyone. So that makes you...29?


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Lenotre too....1st book.


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

perhaps its just me.

The cake japonaise usually refers to the above reference, i.e. two meringues, sandwiched with butter cream and masked with toasted almonds with praline (very tasty).

Also, to my belief, french cuisine refers to certain foods by name by its aspects, i.e. cuisine japonaise would refer to foods of japanese origin or perhaps those that correspond to french beliefs of being japanese or having japanese characteristics.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Went to J&W (Charleston), 94-95. Had Berndt Gronert as my patisserie instructor. He was to busy expounding upon the superiority of German baking to enlighten us to things such as Japonaise.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

They were both in Charleston when I was there. Berndt had been in Providence the year before, Armin had been at Charleston for a while. Berndt was known as the "funny one", a very comparative assessment. My favorite Berndt quote: "What do you do when your creme Anglaise breaks? Well you could go into the corner and cry like a little girl, but that will not help your sauce". Of course, you have to say this with a German accent to be funny, or maybe you just had to be there.
Why did Berndt leave Providence? If it's not something you can post, PM me; my chef buddies love Berndt Gronert stories.


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## chef david simpson (Sep 25, 2000)

m brown, what is maize? I know it's a bread or roll. But where did it come from? What is it made with?


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

maize is the native american term for corn.
maybe you are thinking of corn bread or a term for a spacific corn bread or flat bread/


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## chef david simpson (Sep 25, 2000)

OK, I feel stupid. I was thinking of the tortilla. I've been up for 36 hours catching up on some work. So, please forgive me.

[This message has been edited by Chef David Simpson (edited 01-10-2001).]


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

dude, no biggie.
have a good nights rest.


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## chef david simpson (Sep 25, 2000)

m brown, I got some sleep. But, still want to know where torilla's come from? Some say Mexico and some say Alaska.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Alaska, really?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

In Spain tortilla means omelet, In Mexico it means a thin, flat,unraised pancake made with cornmeal,flour,salt and water...I would think because of the origin of corn and wheat that tortillas must have come from mexico or Spain.Or somewhere similar
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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I wonder which came first, the Spanish or the Mexican version.


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## chef david simpson (Sep 25, 2000)

Well the Native Americans have used the flatbread methed for thoundsands of years, so coming down from Alaska, they might have brought it w/ them.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

What an interesting thread. I was in line for lunch one day and Gronert came by and with his inimitable supercilious tone told the woman next to me was "Out of uniform" because her neckerchief slide was upside down.I also know why he doesn't teach in Providence anymore. Japonaise is hard to find in the books, butI remember it being described, and made, as a nut meringue where the whites were heated before whipping, as opposed to a dacquise, where they are not heated, and which hails from a village or region of France named Dax. But you can't put a name on japonaise the same way.


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

can anyone clarify the difference between a japonaise, a dacquoise and a jaconde?

they all seem to be almond "infused" meringues to be used as layers between buttercreams etc. 

are they used in different applications?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

breadster hi,

I believe that dacquoise doe's not contain whole eggs like a joconde also no butter in a dacquoise but there is in a jocode. so the finished texture and flavor will not be the same. I believe the japenaise has been well documented above.

momoreg,,M brown doe's this sound correct?
This is how I remember making these two items.

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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Joconde is whole eggs beaten thick with almond/sugar powder. Then flour and melted butter are folded in. It's used as the sponge backing for ribbon sponge where chocolate cigarette paste is first spread and combed on a silpat which is then frozen. The joconde is then spread on that and baked and allegedly one can then cut the stuff and line rings with it, but it's the stickiest stuff to work with, I find. Anyone know why?It can also be used as a layer in a torte.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

A joconde is nothing like japonaise or dacquoise. To verify my earlier guess, I did manage to locate my stinky old J&W notebook. The japonaise torte consisted of the almond meringue (Swiss, as you had mentioned, bighat), layered with mocha buttercream and whipped cream. The entire cake is finished with mocha buttercream and ground almonds, finished with a marzipan plaque. 

A dacquoise is any nut meringue that is layered with buttercream and/ or whipped cream. Therefore, a japonaise torte is a dacquoise. 

A joconde is a thin, flexible almond cake. It does contain whipped whites, but it also contains whole eggs, and butter, as cape and bighat have discussed. 


I have never had a problem with mine being too sticky. What is your formula, bighat? And what is the final result like?

Thanks to all for making me get my J&W book. I needed a re-education on Japonaise.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I don't remember where I got this- if it wasn't in class, then it was a Bruce Healy/Paul Bugat book. 

1 lb TPT 9 oz almonds 11/4 cup confectioners sugar
3 eggs beaten till light with 1/2 lb of the tpt
common meringe of 3 whites and 2 1/2 tb sugar
1 oz flour sifted onto yolks
then fold merinque into yolks with remaining tpt and 1 1/2 tb butter

I have a feeling I spread the stuff too thin. But if you are making little tortes or whatever in a 3" ring, you don't want the joconde to be 1/2" thick. I find the underside of the stuff is really sticky. I'd like to use it more, but I find that quality very frustrating, especially when I might need 75 plated desserts for a party.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Even though joconde has the addition of whipped whites, I find that if it is too airy, it is hard to peel off after it's baked. So don't be too gentle when folding in those whites. 

I assume that you are using silpat. That seems to work best for me. 

Make sure you are not underbaking it.

And worse comes to worse, add another ounce of flour to the mix. That might dry it out a little bit more.


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