# Calling all culinary school students and chefs! Biggest complaint?



## theculinarykid (Mar 21, 2014)

What is your biggest complaint as a culinary student, or as a Chef instructor? Shhh..its a safe place..I wont tell your students..

My biggest complaint is when I had zero help finding a internship.


----------



## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

my biggest complaint I kept to myself when I was in school were the people in the class. It is amazing how many people called themselves a savory or pastry cook/chef when none of them have ever stepped into a professional kitchen. Even more amazing is how none of them have ever even eaten in an upscale restaurant that was focused on the food. Despite all of that they all still found it their right to carry a chip on their shoulders. Self entitlement is my complaint; if you want to have an ego that's fine to an extent but back it up.


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

As a student, my biggest source of confusion were those students who found it surprising that there were students who did not know how to cook. They would make disparaging comments because someone did not know how to make hollandaise or bone a leg of lamb or make an omelet. They seemed to forget that we were in school to learn how to cook, not show everyone how well we could cook.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

As a Chef who has a lot of contact with C.C.'s and private culinary schools; and as an employer as well, my biggest complaint is course requirements for the student.

By this I mean many schools will accept anyone who has the money.  About 30% of the students have no idea what a professional kitchen is like to work in, or what typical salary expectations should be.   

I personally feel that schools should only take on students who have at least 6 mths work experience in a professional kitchen.  Ideally, this work experience should be as a dishwasher or salad/prep person. 

It really isn't fair for the student to fork out huge sums of money (and incur debt as well) only to find out a few months later that they don't like the lifestyle, or can't find a way to pay of student loans and live with the pay this industry typically has.


----------



## stevenvhayden (Aug 25, 2015)

foodpump said:


> As a Chef who has a lot of contact with C.C.'s and private culinary schools; and as an employer as well, my biggest complaint is course requirements for the student.
> 
> By this I mean many schools will accept anyone who has the money. About 30% of the students have no idea what a professional kitchen is like to work in, or what typical salary expectations should be.
> 
> ...


I hear that a lot from chefs and employers so I have no doubt that it is a common issue that people need to consider more before going to school. However, at least in my experience the people in my school were going for the experience and had goals outside of cooking in a restaurant. With the food trends growing I think there has opened a lot more doors within the food world. However, I agree that the courses could be better focused. In my school I felt like it was an overall experience instead of focusing on the basic cooking techniques that would give someone a good foundation to step into a kitchen.

a lot of people in my graduating class weren't clear on what a properly seared chicken breast should even look like let alone be able to do it consistently. At least most could break down a chicken or make an aioli though. People stress that a culinary graduate should know how to work in a kitchen but I would expect them to know basic cooking techniques. learning to work can only be done in the work place. culinary school should be learning to cook and nothing more.


----------



## grande (May 14, 2014)

My complaint would be the lack of breadth in the program- depending on menus running, you might not ever do a buerre blanc, hollaindaise, work with roux... it was a community college program and it got biggrr/better after i left, and was overall a positive experience, but that was my complaint


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

?... learning to work can only be done in work the work place....
[/quote]

Exactly my point. Here you have some one who has never worked in a kitchen, yet knows how to cook.

What does an employer do with them?

With no previous work experience, it's prep work or salads. How does the culinary grad pay for school and living expenses?


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

I went to culinary school, then 2 colleges and that was  35+ years ago.

I was saying the same things that have been brought up here on this thread.

I do realize that within the semester, the teacher has so many things to go over, that it's nearly impossible to focus on certain culinary processes within the given timeline.

To that end I feel that the student should have a job during the school year to go hand in hand with their studies. It should be part of the curriculum.

It would be beneficial to have a job that correlates with the students studies.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I think the Culinary education has followed other types of education. It is all money driven. Most of the specialties have become diluted to form a general knowledge.

The culinary specialties are gone. The Saucier,confiseur,grillardian,tournant,potager,etc. Like the medical field, the kitchen has become a general food outlet.

When you go to a multidisciplinary clinic because you know the name on the marquise is the best in the his or her field, ( The Executive Chef), you could very well be seen

by a Nurse Practitioner ( Sous Chef). and so one. The result is the top 4-5% of the population get the best medical treatment and best food.

I stopped by to see a Chef Friend the other day, he wasn't in. On the way out is saw the Sous boning out a leg of lamb. I guess I could use the term butchering. It was a complete mess. I

could have prepared 2 meals with what was left on the bone and board.

I agree with @foodpump, there  should be some type of experience before enrolling in school. Hell, half the schools have dining rooms. Let a newbie start there for 6 months as a plongeur

and instead of pay, give them a credit on tuition if they make it through.


----------



## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Panini 

You are so right. When I taught in the Private school sector all they were worried about is food cost and labor cost and most of all PROFIT. They could not care about anything else.  Public school was different  as they did not care about cost, because the taxpayer footed  the bill. But if I ordered something  80%of the time I would not get it.  How do I  teach them how to make macaroni and cheese when I did  not  get the cheese? There answer  Improvise. ??????? 

     They are all lacking.   I worked with so called chef instructors who knew nothing about butchering, everything came in already cut.. I used to laugh. Thank God I had the experience that I had and learned from the old school chefs. I was fortunate to learn fom the Chefs Garde"Manger, Potage, Saucier, Rottissier, Today the graduates of these schools do not even know what these terms mean. Everything is motivated by the almighty dollar.    When McDonalds  is used as an echelon for a restaurant we are all in trouble.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. ... Help me out here a little bit please.

_"saucier, confiseur, grillardian, tournant, potager" ..._ What restaurant do these people work at? What do they get paid?

_*TIA for the education*_.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@IceMan ,

These were brigade positions in older kitchen set ups. The still exist in places. The Confiseur usually was the Chef responsible for making the Mignardises and Friandise which were small candies and treats usually served on a platter after the meal to go with coffee. The Patisserie was responsible for the dessert while the Boulanger did the bread service. The saucier was responsible for the sautee station and was pretty much high up in the Brigade. The Potager was the Chef who manned the stock pots and prepared the soup. The Chef Tournant was the Chef that filled in each position. I always felt that this position was the best position to have. I never understood why this position did not get as much respect as others like the Saucier and the Chef de Partie. I loved this position before I switched to Pastries.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank You, my friend, for your reply. I am however, well aware of the positions. My question/comment was sarcastic rhetoric in that who hires people for these jobs? A candy maker in a restaurant?!? Are you serious? Are you gonna PAY someone good regular pay to make candy in your kitchen? NO real regular restaurant needs a saucier. How many real regular restaurants have their own garden? It's a completely over-the-top wonderful idea ... but not at all real. MY garden is the produce store 3-miles away; great selection, fresh every day.

_I think maybe that a lot of people need to come back to Earth. _​


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@IceMan,

I guess I'm so old, I fall for most sarcasm. I got excited about the question because I actually had the privilege of being a part of a kitchen brigade developed

by Escoffier.

That type of hierarchy in the kitchen brought great respect not only from the Chefs but also the customers. Today the hierarchy has changed dramatically.

More so in restaurants than nice hotels. It's truly a shame and I'm sure it's the reason that becoming a Chef isn't a profession anymore, it's a job.

It was great feeling walking into a kitchen and watching the respect for one another.

The hierarchy from the Executive down was like an orchestra.

Today the hierarchy starts with the money down.

Most stations blended into one.

Not much respect for one and others positions.

and the worst thing is that the customers have settled for mediocracy.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

panini said:


> @IceMan,
> 
> I guess I'm so old, I fall for most sarcasm. I got excited about the question because I actually had the privilege of being a part of a kitchen brigade developed
> 
> ...


A lot of what you say is true panini. I believe the food corporations and fast food are to blame for this.

Why would a restaurant need a butcher these days, when all steaks can be readily purchased, grill or oven ready and at the exact weight one could desire?

Same goes for the baker, when fresh or partially baked products are available, or the garde manger, when everything cold comes for a pre-packaged, pre seasoned, table ready item?

The brigade positions here in America have coalesced into one or two cooks.

Everything from _Rôtisseur,Grillardin, Friturier*, *Poissonnier, and Entremetier, to Garde manger*, and *Pâtissier_ 

*c*an be managed by 2-3 cooks these days

About the only position (s) we could still maintain in a kitchen these days would be "Plongeur" ,"Marmiton" or dishwasher.


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Chefross said:


> panini said:
> 
> 
> > @IceMan,
> ...


Reading these opinions made me wonder how much can be due to the sheer number of restaurants vs the number of diners available to fill the seats any given night?

@panini ... you once posted that dining out has by and large become eating out and I have been pondering your statement ever since.

I remember back in the day when dining out meant getting dressed up and occupying a linen covered table (with the candles and greenery) for 4-5 sometimes 6 hours.

First was a few round of cocktails then the full dinner (soup to nuts ;-) .....

Lingering over coffee and little sweets then to someone's home or a nightclub (no DJ's blasting music) to enjoy a few nice brandies as well as more conversation and laughs.

Granted it was a treat then as it is now ... just harder to find a place that encourages the destination not the chef.

The busy (re popular) places want to turn those tables 2-4 times and frown on those customers that outstay their welcome.

The number of staff in the BOH has been compressed in order to squeeze a few more bucks out before the "in crowd" moves on to the next new thing.

mimi

As for the FOH....when is the last time you have had more than 3 waitstaff during a meal?

Hostess, waiter, table runner.

Where is my Captain???


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I agree with all of you. Unfortunately, based on all those factors, work experience before or after school is not always a great indicator of how well anyone can cook. So many products are available pre-prepared and are used by so many restaurants that quite often people can legitimately claim to have cooked for years but still lack understanding of how to cook or the depth and breadth of what actual from scratch food preparation means. I have encountered too many cooks who don't even understand what it is they don't know or why they should learn it. 

     This all seems to be becoming a self determining loop. Restaurants rely on the prepared product so have no need for cooks with deep knowledge, cooks end up focusing on the labor saving of the products, schools find it more profitable to minimize the curriculum for the same tuition, the manufacturers keep finding a bigger market for more prepared products and customers are so used to the affordable prepared products available in the grocery store and used in so many restaurants they don't understand the higher prices for high quality, from scratch foods.  

     And then there's food TV. The Julia Childs and Jacque Pepins are being replaced with Guy Fieri and Rachel Ray, not to mention the various "cooking" competitions who seem to be propagating the belief that you can put out three star cuisine in twenty minutes. So now customers sit in restaurants and wonder "How can it be taking so long to cook my dinner?" instead of enjoying the convivial social atmosphere dining out should be. 

    Okay, enough complaining for now. Time for a coffee refill.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

chefwriter said:


> I agree with all of you. Unfortunately, based on all those factors, work experience before or after school is not always a great indicator of how well anyone can cook. So many products are available pre-prepared and are used by so many restaurants that quite often people can legitimately claim to have cooked for years but still lack understanding of how to cook or the depth and breadth of what actual from scratch food preparation means. I have encountered too many cooks who don't even understand what it is they don't know or why they should learn it.


 I place a lot of the blame on Al Gore and the internet /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif So many people are too busy amassing all this readily available wealth of information that is so easily accessible these days and making them instant experts that they don't have the time to understand the processes and foundations that the information is built upon.

A few years back, I was working a catering gig one time as an extra pair of hired hands. The entree had bearnaise as a sauce. At plating time, the sauce started to break and I watched the chef and sous furiously trying to bring it back by doing everything text book wrong. Finally the sous looked at me and said "Layne, you know how to fix this right. Then do it"...Funny thing is both the chef and the chef had graduated from culinary school probably 10 years prior /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif Go figure!


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

cheflayne said:


> chefwriter said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with all of you. Unfortunately, based on all those factors, work experience before or after school is not always a great indicator of how well anyone can cook. So many products are available pre-prepared and are used by so many restaurants that quite often people can legitimately claim to have cooked for years but still lack understanding of how to cook or the depth and breadth of what actual from scratch food preparation means. I have encountered too many cooks who don't even understand what it is they don't know or why they should learn it.
> ...


That has to be the best feeling in the world lol!

mimi


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

chefwriter said:


> I agree with all of you. Unfortunately, based on all those factors, work experience before or after school is not always a great indicator of how well anyone can cook. So many products are available pre-prepared and are used by so many restaurants that quite often people can legitimately claim to have cooked for years but still lack understanding of how to cook or the depth and breadth of what actual from scratch food preparation means. I have encountered too many cooks who don't even understand what it is they don't know or why they should learn it.
> 
> This all seems to be becoming a self determining loop. Restaurants rely on the prepared product so have no need for cooks with deep knowledge, cooks end up focusing on the labor saving of the products, schools find it more profitable to minimize the curriculum for the same tuition, the manufacturers keep finding a bigger market for more prepared products and customers are so used to the affordable prepared products available in the grocery store and used in so many restaurants they don't understand the higher prices for high quality, from scratch foods.
> 
> ...


You have hit the nail on the head right here

.

I can't even count how many cooks,

how many applicants, and

how many "chefs" I have remembered as being unable to cook without convenience products.

"What? Make a demi-glace without Swiss-Knorr products?"

or

"Huh? Make French Fries from scratch?"

and the best one......

"You mean you guys chop your own vegetables here?"

Yes, so to say that a person has restaurant experience is very very ambiguous.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Awright you guys.....

By "restaurant experience" I mean the following:

-Ability to comprehend that cooking on the line is a team effort, communication and timing are key, and that there is no room or tolerance for prima-donna crap.

-Ability to understand that when prepping for a 250 pax bqt, that 240 plates won't do, and that if you have 250 exact, you'd better have at least 10% backup kicking around

-Ability to understand that Joe or Frank, who have been cooking for 10+ years got their current job because they are good at what they do, and just because you went to culinary school does not give you the right to question their jobs or to take over their jobs.

-Ability to multi task.  Don't care if it's slitting open salad bags and heating up pre made sauces, you gotta be able to multi task.

-Ability to follow instructions:  If shown a particular way, you DO NOT say: "We learned a different way at school.  I'm not doing it your way, and I don't care if the customer  had it a zillion times your way".

You know, stuff they don't teach at school........................


----------



## chef frazer (Oct 27, 2015)

Well, I just entered this web site and after reading through these threads, I would tend to agree with all of you at one point or another.  I have been in the business for far too many years and have seen the changes and the loss of technique and respect for what we stand and represent.  This is not to say that there are not those of us out there who still employ the staff who still understand who and why we do what we do.  As a recruiter for my company and my hotel, I visit various culinary establishments around the country every year and I see first hand what is and what is not being taught to the future chefs. Not only is the concept of cooking evolved into a lesser product but I find that general good business practices are not being taught, down to proper food costing, menu building, inventorying, and meeting your bottom line for labor and ultimately, your profit margin.  I see good restaurants and high end establishments go under within a year or two because these people do not have the basics to survive.  It's a catch 22 in my book.  Hard to find great chefs that can run a great business. 

I run a BOH staff of about 64 people and I demand that my kitchen still runs the "old school way".  My 4 Sous are required to bring to the table all of the "brigade" positions and what they don't know they are taught either by my myself or my veteran Sous Chefs.  Yes, it has evolved to where chefs need to know more than one thing.  My hope is to do my best to train these eager chefs, especially interns, and then when they leave, they will have a better base to work with.  This day in age, I think it is up to those of us that have been in the field forever to do our best to keep traditions alive. Cross train all your staff, including dishwashers, and your team will be strong.  I challenge owners/chefs to run a transparent kitchen/office and take the time to teach and enrich those around them. Foodpump....I couldn't agree more with your comments. Weed out the divas and cook on!


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Chef Frazer said:


> Well, I just entered this web site and after reading through these threads, I would tend to agree with all of you at one point or another. I have been in the business for far too many years and have seen the changes and the loss of technique and respect for what we stand and represent. This is not to say that there are not those of us out there who still employ the staff who still understand who and why we do what we do. As a recruiter for my company and my hotel, I visit various culinary establishments around the country every year and I see first hand what is and what is not being taught to the future chefs. Not only is the concept of cooking evolved into a lesser product but I find that general good business practices are not being taught, down to proper food costing, menu building, inventorying, and meeting your bottom line for labor and ultimately, your profit margin. I see good restaurants and high end establishments go under within a year or two because these people do not have the basics to survive. It's a catch 22 in my book. Hard to find great chefs that can run a great business.
> 
> I run a BOH staff of about 64 people and I demand that my kitchen still runs the "old school way". My 4 Sous are required to bring to the table all of the "brigade" positions and what they don't know they are taught either by my myself or my veteran Sous Chefs. Yes, it has evolved to where chefs need to know more than one thing. My hope is to do my best to train these eager chefs, especially interns, and then when they leave, they will have a better base to work with. This day in age, I think it is up to those of us that have been in the field forever to do our best to keep traditions alive. Cross train all your staff, including dishwashers, and your team will be strong. I challenge owners/chefs to run a transparent kitchen/office and take the time to teach and enrich those around them. Foodpump....I couldn't agree more with your comments. Weed out the divas and cook on!


First off....welcome to ChefTalk Chef.

I believe that the culinary schools are gearing their curriculum towards the restaurants of today and relegating the "old school" ways to the trash bin of history.

So many places utilize convenience products, that it is inevitable to teach their usage. Very few places have a brigade anymore. Fast food and casual food have taken the kitchen and changed it, so that the bottom line is more about the numbers than the food and its' proper preparation.


----------



## uniquecole (Nov 2, 2015)

The best student in the class taught and helped the students more than the chefs did. The chefs complained or stayed talking to each other than showing students what to do, and just said read recipe. That really irritated me the most.


----------



## jonathan norris (Nov 6, 2015)

My biggest complaint was most of the instructor's attitudes.  On one hand you had the know-it-all's who thought they were the best thing that ever happened to a kitchen.  Asking them for help usually resulted in being talked down to and/or ignored.  And on the flip side there were the chef's who were just there for a paycheck, and it showed.  

I honestly feel like I learned more from Youtube than my culinary school.


----------



## cronker (Mar 3, 2016)

When I began in the 5 star hotel chains (late 80's, the end of the gravy days in Australia) I was in banquets and conferences department.
We had:

Full time Houseman. His job was to place tables in the right configuration for the function, collect and place client collateral in the room, hang/erect banners, put stages in place and stock the bars.

Part time kitchen steward who's job was to polish the cutlery.

In the kitchen department there was a full time:
Butcher
Baker 
Pattisierre
Chocolatier 
Head chef in every department 

I don't think I ever saw the Executive Chef actually cook anything.
At the time, business lunches and entertaining was tax deductible, so it was not uncommon for a bunch of corporate fat cats to have five course meals drowned down with vintage French Beaujolais and Dom Perignon, followed by Cuban cigars and single malt whiskey.

Our economy went into recession and the tax deductions disappeared overnight. The screws turned, people stopped dining out and the food industry moved more toward cheap and cheerful.

Most of the jobs I mentioned above disappeared, being absorbed by others.
Shame really, those were great days!


----------



## norgebishop (Feb 2, 2014)

Unrealistic expectations of what a cooks life is, entitlement and laziness. I understand that you have come to school to learn how to cook so you might not have that much knowledge yet, but you better be busting your ass everyday to learn as much as you can. Otherwise you are wasting thousands of dollars. This is partially the schools fault for not showing the students what a cooks life truly is. Instead they fill their heads with these false ideas and beliefs about how once you graduate you will be a chef of your own kitchen and will be making 20 dollars an hour.


----------



## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

Biggest complaint is that culinary school doesn't teach real life experience.

They should devote a week for "Oh $h!+" moments.

Come in and one of your ovens doesn't work, half of your prep from the day before is missing, you have less people than required to pull off that days menu, etc.

Teaching someone how to do something when they have everything they need, whether it be product, time, staff, is great, but they should teach them what to do when things go wrong.

Do they even teach/practice how to fix a broken hollandaise?

I know they don't teach that a waffle iron needs to be sprayed or buttered.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Just Jim said:


> Biggest complaint is that culinary school doesn't teach real life experience.
> 
> They should devote a week for "Oh $h!+" moments.
> 
> ...


I honestly understand your point here but the examples you've used would be unrealistic in a learning environment.

The evolution of teaching cooking has changed a lot from when i went to college in the 70's.

After a few introductory classes I was put to work right away in the schools grills, cafeterias, and fine dining rooms all through my semesters.

Mornings and early afternoon were actual hands on cooking that the public would eat.

You learned your knife skills, how to prepare cold food and slowly worked your way up to hot food and quantity food production.

Last semester as a senior you cooked for the fine dining restaurant.

Do they even do this now?

You must teach the basics in a really short amount of time. Unless you are a 4 year college, it's simply impossible to include all possible malfunctions of a kitchen.

I would agree to touch bases on such things you describe like if a student is making the Hollandaise and it breaks, then that would be a great opportunity to bring the entire class over to this cook and show how to bring it back, it time permitted that is. My $.02


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

Along with the lack of teaching what a real kitchen is really like (i.e. Speed, pressure, & the fact that you can't take 10 mins to julienne an onion) , I feel as though the focus on old school techniques should be changed. The restaurants that still tourne potatoes & the like are few & far between. Classes such as fish butchery, new world techniques (sous vide), & local sourcing needs to be implemented


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

ChefNickNack said:


> The restaurants that still tourne potatoes & the like are few & far between.


Tourne potatoes may be old school, but they are not just about seven sided potatoes. They are also about knife skills. Knife skills are still relevant. Knife skills are important to things such as fish butchering.


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> Tourne potatoes may be old school, but they are not just about seven sided potatoes. They are also about knife skills. Knife skills are still relevant. Knife skills are important to things such as fish butchering.


I completely agree. I just feel as though, being a recent JWU grad, there was a large emphasis on tourne & such. I saw fellow students tourne a potato pretty well, but when the chef asked them to julienne an onion or deglaze a pan they were completely lost.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

ChefNickNack said:


> I saw fellow students tourne a potato pretty well, but when the chef asked them to julienne an onion or deglaze a pan they were completely lost.


This would seem to indicate that the problem is not necessarily one of the curriculum being old school as opposed to new world techniques, but something else all together...how would you change this? (not being snarky, asking genuinely)


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Chefross said:


> I honestly understand your point here but the examples you've used would be unrealistic in a learning environment.
> 
> The evolution of teaching cooking has changed a lot from when i went to college in the 70's.
> 
> ...


How about teaching in an environment that mimics the actual workplace? I'm not talking about state-of-art kitchens and equipment like so many schools have, but the stuff a regular kitchen has. Baking muffins in a plain-jane Garland type gas oven-under the burners is pretty standard for many places, many places have the ubiquitous p.o.s. convention oven with the floppy doors and everything gets darker on the r.h. side of the oven, 'cause that's the direction the fan turns.

Dishwashers too, seem to be a mystery for many culinary students who have never worked in a kitchen either. Some think it to be a piece of magic: Bar glass ware, rubber floor mats, and bacon fat encrusted sheet pans go in, and are expected to come out clean as well, must be the little green men inside with scrub brushes on stick, right? The way I've always explained it is:

"I trust you've jumped through a garden sprinkler as kid right? Think back now, it got you wet, but did it get you clean? This machine is no different. Those spray arms just fling water about in the hopes of getting the item clean. Items have to be fairly clean when it goes in, or it will never get clean when they come out. Oh, and if the tank water is dirty, skanky, and greasy, do you actually expect your stuff to be squeaky clean when it comes out?"

So my question to those who design culinary curriculae is: If the intention is to prepare the student for the workplace, and you can not anticipate the demands of the workplace, what's the point?


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Well said Foodpump. I couldn't agree more. The learning emphasis unfortunately is always on the positives.

I remember way back long ago I had an introductory course to hotels and restaurants.

During that semester the instructor did all he could to make us want to leave the industry before we even started.

His technique was to tell us all the negatives that can happen to us in the kitchen or FOH

Trays falling, cooler walk-in goes down, cooks call in sick, etc.....

The multi-scenario scene when all things break loose all at once type of stuff.

High divorce rates, alcohol and drug abuse, theft, larceny, you name it he talked about it.

It seems to work though, as by semester's end the class was nearly cut by 1/2.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well...there's always that, but my thoughts are a bit more......uh, different.

Employers, employees (a.k.a. culinary students) and culinary schools have a weird relationship. After studying this for years, here's how I see the dynamics of this relationship:

-Employers and employees can't exist without each other

-Culinary schools can't exist without either employers or employees. (although some think they can exist without employers)

and,

-Employers and employees CAN exist without the culinary schools.

This website and many like it are full of posts from culinary students who find out they are ill-prepared for the workplace, as well as being near bankrupt. Employers aren't thrilled with many of the culinary schools either

_Yet the N.American culinary schools either refuse to acknowledge or refuse to address the fact if a culinary student goes into their program with "0" work experience, they graduate with "0" work experience._ A grad with no previous experience will start at the very low end, earning minimum wage, ones with several years previous experience will start off on the line or higher.

What makes me want to punch a brick wall and scream, is that most of Continental Europe adressed this problem years (centuries, actually) ago, and places like my province (B.C.) have addressed it a few years ago.

The European way is to take a kid with "0" work experience, and get a job under contract for 3 years. The kid starts low, works his/her/ heiny off for 4 days, and goes to school for one day every week. School--classroom, well experienced teacher, no "labs", no school caf. Assuming the kid passes after 3 years, they get their state recognized qualifications and continue with their career.

The way here in B.C. is you take a block of schooling that teaches the bare basics, get a job and work your heiny off for the required amount of hours, take another block of schooling, work your heiny off for the required amount of hours, then take the final block of schooling and write your exams. Then you get your Gov't recognized qualifications. Blocks are flexible and can be taken consecutively for a month or two, or on certain days per week. The cost is very low.

With both of these examples, the school does what it does best: Provides classroom teaching and tests. The workplace provides work experience and the daily sh*t that always happens.

So, private N.American schools will only change if one of three things happens:

-Money (students) dries up

-Intervention like litigation or legislation happens

-someone intelligent has the foresight to be proactive and change

One of my favorite quotes is from a S. African golf pro, around the time that Apartheid was being dismantled and the country was in turmoil. He was quoted as saying :

"Change is the price of survival"

I dunno, maybe the Chef's ass'n can actually pull some weight and "talk" to the private schools. Hasn't happened yet though.......


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> This would seem to indicate that the problem is not necessarily one of the curriculum being old school as opposed to new world techniques, but something else all together...how would you change this? (not being snarky, asking genuinely)


In all honesty, I feel as though culinary school should be based in a working, public restaurant. You take academic/core classes in the morning, & work in the restaurant for dinner service. Freshmen start as dishwashers, prep, & bussers. If they excel, promote to garde manger so that they have something to work towards . Sophomores get stations, expo, serving, & bar tending . Menu rotates weekly so that every student gets exposure to the basics (knife cuts, mother sauces, proteins, etc.) And for bachelors degree students, they perform FOH manager tasks, create new menu items, costing, advertising, management .

I graduated from culinary school, but I only did it because it was a requirement to get my food science bachelors degree. I personally don't feel as though culinary school helps students. Rather it puts students in major debt to go to a entry level job that pays $12/hour, with some basic skills that may or may not be useful.

College is an investment in your career. If going to college will allow you to make more money than if you didn't go, it's worth it. But if you'll make relatively the same amount, regardless of schooling, than the debt is not worth it


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Well thought out. Solid post. Now, how to bring it about?


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

There is a real shortage of qualified "cooks" in America at present.

Now why is that?

Could it be that unlike most 9-5 40 hour a week jobs restaurant work is much more stressful?

Or perhaps the quality of education given to the culinary student is not relevant to the needs of the industry at present.

Or, and I theorize, that the public is only now realizing that the hospitality world doesn't pay well, doesn't offer much in the way of a home life, and that this is not going to change any time soon.

Perhaps the television's idea's of restaurant life IS having an effect on hopeful would be culinarians.


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

ChefNickNack said:


> cheflayne said:
> 
> 
> > This would seem to indicate that the problem is not necessarily one of the curriculum being old school as opposed to new world techniques, but something else all together...how would you change this? (not being snarky, asking genuinely)
> ...


I agree.

This is how all the medical arts are taught and trained.

Until hospitality in the US is taken seriously the end result will remain mediocre.

This will never happen tho....very few would be able to afford the expense of dining out.

IMO.

mimi


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

I love to cook. If the pay was livable, benefits were offered, I could work a 8-10 hour shift, and have some weekends/holidays/vacation time, I think a lot more people would be willing to do it. The stress and pressure are not unlike many other industries, but the added pressures of working 55+ hour weeks and not making enough money to live make it extremely hard.

We're a country that was built on working, not living. We've grown a lot, having 40 hour work weeks and benefits be the norm. But the restaurant industry has not changed. We're expected to perform at a high level, have very little time off, & get paid peanuts for what? To say we work at a Michelin starred place? I'm sorry but a social life, family, and the ability to travel the world and have hobbies is more important to me.


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

ChefNickNack said:


> I love to cook. If the pay was livable, benefits were offered, I could work a 8-10 hour shift, and have some weekends/holidays/vacation time, I think a lot more people would be willing to do it. The stress and pressure are not unlike many other industries, but the added pressures of working 55+ hour weeks and not making enough money to live make it extremely hard.
> 
> We're a country that was built on working, not living. We've grown a lot, having 40 hour work weeks and benefits be the norm. But the restaurant industry has not changed. We're expected to perform at a high level, have very little time off, & get paid peanuts for what? To say we work at a Michelin starred place? I'm sorry but a social life, family, and the ability to travel the world and have hobbies is more important to me.


This....is why I never had less than 2 jobs at once.

Scheduled enuf hours at ( hospital, clinic or insurance company name here) to qualify for health insurance (ok the paychecks were nothing to sneeze at lol) and spent the rest of my "work life" at high volume bars...catering companies owned by friends...creating huge cakes for lavish weddings and other events.... on and on.

My only regrets as I pass into the autumn of my life?

Well to start with my family long ago stopped letting me know about get togethers (my sister does reach out a couple of times a week...during her drive time home from work) and I have to search for phone numbers/FB pages when I wanna talk to a friend who was never in the biz.

I am much more comfy ordering take out and binge watching tv series in my jammies than getting "dressed" in order to go dancing or catch a band on Saturday nite.

TBH?

Unless I am working and getting off on the adrenaline, I am just not interested (almost uncomfortable) being in a crowd anymore.

mimi


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

insightful insider take on culinary school

http://firstwefeast.com/eat/evan-fu...+3+2016&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

That is a pretty cool story. ... As long as you realize that it's got nothing to do with knowing how to cook food but ... _"business savvy"_. Now for me ... being what a nut-job that I am, going to culinary school was not at all to learn anything about "business savvy" but to learn ... ready for this ... how to cook food. Any decent JuCo/ComCol can teach you about business savvy. AND IT'S CHEAP. I was not about to spend CIA-type $$$ to learn any business savvy.

Maybe ... now just maybe ... the problem today might be stupid students. They see a TV show and BLAMMO!!! They want to be _FoodTV_ chefs. For the love of Jebus ... nobody just wants to work any more. The big corporate joints set the standards for garbage-can lids full of stuff for $8. And big hot-shot names are plating 22 courses of matchbox dishes for $385. What-the-hey ... this ain'te no easy game. But at the same time ... it ain'te rocket surgery either. Skills are skills. If you got 'em ... you'll get work. I learned some pretty good freakin' skills at the CIA. They were "brain skills". _Basically ..._ how to cook really good stuff.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Cheflayne that was a great read.

I could surely relate.

With 45 years under my belt, and having worked for owner/Chefs, I can tell you without reservation that it's always about the money.

I did at one time want to open a Kosher bakery. I did a lot of research, and it became a nightmare.


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Cheflayne,

That was a good read.  Many chefs that are successful in business have partners who are business smart.  A four year culinary school usually requires a minor in business.  Even that does not qualify a person to open and be a success. Experience, training, or just blind luck are also necessary.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

IceMan said:


> Skills are skills. If you got 'em ... you'll get work.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

For MY culinary school $$$ they can show me how to do manual skill stuff ... ONCE ... then I'll go master that _"no brain needed" - "any absolute clown can do it" - "why am I spending money learning a muscle-memory task"_ skill on my own. For MY $$$ I want to learn different ways and styles to cook things ... why you cook things certain ways to get specific results ... how herb/seasoning "A" goes with specific ingredient "B" and why it works. _(I could go on here ... but maybe you get it.)_ I don't want top instructors teaching me how to julienne 400-lbs of potatoes in 13-minutes. I don't want anyone teaching me about mother-freakin'-sauces. I want to learn how and why to make my own sauces, what they would be good for and how to match herbs, seasonings and ingredients.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Iceman, don"t you think one needs to learn the basics first before learning how to put the knowledge to work being creative?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

IceMan said:


> For MY culinary school $$$ they can show me how to do manual skill stuff ... ONCE ... then I'll go master that _"no brain needed" - "any absolute clown can do it" - "why am I spending money learning a muscle-memory task"_ skill on my own. For MY $$$ I want to learn different ways and styles to cook things ... why you cook things certain ways to get specific results ... how herb/seasoning "A" goes with specific ingredient "B" and why it works. _(I could go on here ... but maybe you get it.)_ I don't want top instructors teaching me how to julienne 400-lbs of potatoes in 13-minutes. I don't want anyone teaching me about mother-freakin'-sauces. I want to learn how and why to make my own sauces, what they would be good for and how to match herbs, seasonings and ingredients.


You don't want top culinary instructors teaching you how to julienne 400 lbs of spuds, eh? But your employers want that skill.

You might not want to believe me, Iceman, but we are both on the same page--all your wants in your above post are exactly what I described in my previous post. Repetition is for the work place, theory and knowledge is learned in the classroom. I gave two examples in my previous post about how to achieve your wants, and they both work--very well. It's just that no American institution has adopted them.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I can learn _"the basics"_ at Joe's Diner. I teach homeless guys the basics when I'm cooking at shelters. In all actuality ... they get pretty good. Are they Japanese knife demo guys?!? NO. But for the $$$ they would earn in any basic eats place, they're good enough. I'm not spending CIA $$$ on learning the basics. Are you aware of the CIA ... it's the place I went ... the last thing I wanted to learn there was _"the basics"_ of anything. You can't even get in there without knowing a lot more than the basics. You also gotta have, I think, two(2) years of real experience. Again I'm gonna say ... Maybe today's student is just stupid.

Sorry.

_We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery._​


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK ... I'm not sayin' ... I'm just sayin'. Anyone that can't learn _"the basics"_ of most applications, outside of really fast knife work, through o-t-j training, just doesn't want to work or doesn't need a job. O-t-j training needs to be through in less than a week's worth of shifts too. You gotta know that kinda stuff walking in ... or you should go to _Micky D's_ and just call it a day on the career idea. On the other hand ... and I'm not calling you out here FoodPump on the boss side of the game, but bosses need to screen incoming hires better so they don't get stuck with clowns that can't do the job. I get pushed around sometimes by snotty jerk punks that can work like machines putting out dishes faster than me. I walked out of a Michelin*** place once because of that. The bosses drag me back in however because I've got the skills/ability to do things at the _"right now"_ speed when situations or specials come up.


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Iceman:  

If

"We work in kitchens, it ain't rocket surgery"

.....then why the heck can't we find good employees who WANT to work?

I realize your intentions are good but sometimes not realistic.

You've heard the term location, location, location?

Well that term can also be used when looking for quality help.

Geography has a lot to do with what comes in the back door looking for a job.

If you can teach and mentor the homeless, and or convicts how to cook, it shouldn't be that difficult to train a young aspiring person.

But the difference here is that the homeless person and the convict have enough humility to understand how grateful they are for even being where they are.

The young have as yet to discover this.

Back to another thought, and that being knife skills.

Yes they are an important skill to posses, and you are to be commended for teaching that skill to others, but as you well know, that skill along with the others are stepping stones to learning more about working in the kitchen.

I agree that basic skills can be taught on the job and probably with a better success rate than in a school kitchen atmosphere, simply because of repetition.

But for some people, the actual structured education of culinary is better for them over working for education.

I admire the fact that CIA requires experience before school.


----------



## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

The purpose for going to school is to get an exposure to your field of study.  After a student graduates they improve their skills and talents over time.  Would you like to cross a bridge designed by a new graduate from an engineering school?  Culinary school is the same thing.  My complaint was students that thought they had great knife skills they knew more than the professor.   Ice Man did you go to any school past high school?  I seems that you have a chip on your shoulder about education.


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

#1 CIA requires 1 year of kitchen experience, and it is the only school I know of that requires this.

#2 culinary school teaches basic skills (mother sauces, knife cuts) & then hands you a recipe & says make this. They don't teach you very much of the WHY of things, maybe the malliard reaction . The don't teach you why flavored go together, just that tomatoes & basil taste good together. Culinary school teaches you the basics , enough so that most students don't look completely stupid in industry.

Sorry for bashing culinary school, but experience & a few businesses courses will put you in the same spot. Even in a food science program you are not taught about why flavored go together, that is something gained through experience


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

*Chefross* ... You can't find good employees who _WANT_ to work because ... they're too stupid to understand any kinda work ethic for the scale of pay offered. The United States is the _"Land of Entitlement"_. Far far too many people think that they are just supposed to get stuff because it's the way it is. You answered your own "?" with why I can teach homeless people how to cook. _"WORK ETHIC"_ ... very simple.

*Jimyra* ... Education is my main field of work. I have been an elementary/high school teacher since 1987. My educational credentials now place me out of the preferred pay-range for those getting hired today. I have NO chip. I just have NO respect for new students that lack a work ethic. I'm also very economical ... which you should have figured out, but seem to have not ... in that I don't think that culinary school, for the price, is the place to learn manual labor skills.

*ChefNickNack* ... Culinary school taught me _EXACTLY_ the _"WHY"_ of things. It taught me _EXACTLY_ what and why flavors go together. That is why I went there. That is the basis of why I am so good at what I do. I'm very sorry that whatever school _YOU_ went to did not teach you those things. Maybe you should ask for your $$$ back.


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

IceMan said:


> *Chefross* ... You can't find good employees who _WANT_ to work because ... they're too stupid to understand any kinda work ethic for the scale of pay offered. The United States is the _"Land of Entitlement"_. Far far too many people think that they are just supposed to get stuff because it's the way it is. You answered your own "?" with why I can teach homeless people how to cook. _"WORK ETHIC"_ ... very simple.
> 
> *Jimyra* ... Education is my main field of work. I have been an elementary/high school teacher since 1987. My educational credentials now place me out of the preferred pay-range for those getting hired today. I have NO chip. I just have NO respect for new students that lack a work ethic. I'm also very economical ... which you should have figured out, but seem to have not ... in that I don't think that culinary school, for the price, is the place to learn manual labor skills.
> 
> *ChefNickNack* ... Culinary school taught me _EXACTLY_ the _"WHY"_ of things. It taught me _EXACTLY_ what and why flavors go together. That is why I went there. That is the basis of why I am so good at what I do. I'm very sorry that whatever school _YOU_ went to did not teach you those things. Maybe you should ask for your $$$ back.


I went to JWU Providence, which is actually considered to be the best culinary school along with the CIA. I commend you for having got all that out of culinary school, as it is great & is what SHOULD be taught. But the point that I think you're missing is the fact that 98% of culinary students DONT learn that. They learn the manual labor skills because you need to before you even begin everything else.

You can't tell me that you'd hire someone that can vividly explain to you the reasons behind the amount of spices in a curry, but can't julienne an onion properly, for a line cook position.

The fact of the matter is, highly prestigious culinary schools cost $50-75k. Upon graduating, a line cook or prep position pays on average $10-14/hr . After a few years experience, where a good portion of culinary students leave the industry, you might get the chance to be a sous or maybe an exec. These positions, an average, pay 50-60k on the high end, not taking into account the shear hours you put in.

If you get lucky and land a corporate or personal chef or consulting job, all of that doesn't apply. But the percentage of culinary students that end up in these positions are limited, as are the jobs themselves


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I can show anyone how to julienne an onion, give them 10-lbs a day, let them practice/learn and then get good. Whatever they screw-up ... who cares ... it goes into onion soup et al. I don't hire guys that don't know the ins-outs of seasoning, what goes with what, cooking styles, cooking procedures, "specials on the fly" and other important things I learned in school. I also don't give a rat's tail bit of difference if they can make any "mother sauces". But show me that you can make _"Your"_ sauce with what we have on hand, and it doesn't suck ... I'll be impressed. I won't have anyone trimming out big $$$ meat until I show them how I want it done. No school anywhere shows students how I want things done unless I'm teaching the class. For me ... culinary brains trump dicing tomatoes.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

My quote button isn't working, but I ned to highlight your bit about:"I won't have anyone trimming out big$$$meat untill I show them how I want it done"...What I learned, was 1st year apprentices never really went near meat. Second years would maybe bone out chickens, remove the pin bones from salmon. Then cleaning tenderloins, by third year, the Chef would trust us enough to portion out chops, schnitzels, etc. Our final exam in the third year we were given a quarter of beef or pork and had to break it down into smaller cuts, then into indv. Portions.What I'm trying to get across, is that all skills are based on mastering simple ones first, then progressing on to more complicated ones. No Chef I ever worked for, would demonstrate what he wanted in terms of breaking down high cost meat, without first watching you first break down a chicken or something simple first. The principle is the same with slicing onions or tomatoes. If you can't produce what is needed in the required amount of time, why should the Chef let you move on to more expensive-albeit vegetables-or other ingredients?


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

NO ... it's not that complicated. As an example, if _YOU_ were to work in my kitchen, I would still show you how I would want things done. You might be the bestest greatest super-terrificest butcher in the world. I still like things done the way I like things done. I've let homeless guys trim out a coupla zillion pounds of hanger steak to get the basic feel of working with sharp knives. A couple of them are good enough to break down and/or trim out different steaks.


----------



## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

Iceman , I think we're all getting away from the point of the actual thread, which is our biggest complaints about culinary school.

Through your posts, I think you've made it clear that YOU personally, being a culinary instructor, do things a certain way & that YOU personally got a lot more out of culinary school than most people.

I PERSONALLY didn't learn flavor profiles, much butchering skills, etc. because each class was a 9 day crash course in the subject. I don't know about you guys, but I need repetition to learn a new skills. If I'm shown how to filet a fish once, given 3 fish to be filleted, & then spending the next year and a half never doing that skill again, I'm going to forget it.

I worked in high volume restaurants all through my Associate's degree, at a young age to boot. I realized very quickly that the restaurant life and the sacrifices that are associated with it was not something I wanted, so I found my niche to be food science & R&D. The reason why there's a shortage of cooks currently is that young people are realizing that, despite their love & passion for food, the sacrifices in personal life & compensation associated with restaurants is not worth it. With the amount of careers out there, and the influx of technology jobs, cooking is losing it's attraction that it's held for many years.

Culinary school should teach you how to be a good prep cook, a good line cook, a good pastry associate, &, in bachelor's degree programs, how to take these skills into a management position. The details of what specifically you produce is unimportant, as regardless of where you end up working the chef is going to teach you how HE/SHE wants things done & how their dishes are produced. If culinary school could teach speed, how to handle large amount of stress & pressure, consistency, organization, & cleanliness at an extremely high level, I think they'd be viewed in a much higher regard.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

To be perfectly honest, I left the hot kitchen 9 years ago when I walked into the pastry kitchen.  That being said, I have a lot of contact with culinary students AND culinary instructors.

I have relationships with 3 culinary schools, and at least once a year all three send me at least one student for periods ranging from 2 weeks to 2 days.  By sheer coincidence, I've had no "deadbeats" in all these years, they've all showed up on time, ready for work, with no attitudes of entitlement.

One of the first things they learn is how to temper chocolate.  They've all taken the "block" or "lab" at school, and know most of theory and the techniques, it's just that they've never really done it enough.  So they temper my 70%, my milk, and my white couverturtes, usually in batches between 7 and 20 kgs every day.  At the end of 2 weeks most of them have enough repetition to master this basic technique.  To compare to the hot kitchen, making an emulsion sauce--either hot or cold-- requires a certain amount of repetition as well.

Then on to the dough sheeter.  Two schools have such a machine, but more importantly every production bakery in the world has at least one.  Thing is, most students would rather roll their dough out by hand at school instead of lining up behind 15 other students just to roll out dough for two or three lousy pies.  Thus, no skill in using a labour saving machine.  So I give them a 6 kg hunk of dough that's 5"' thick and tell them to line out 72 tarts @ 3mm thick.  Small potatoes for any production bakery.  First thing I show them to do is to butterfly the dough with a knife--just like a pork chop.  Now its 2" thick and just thin  enough to slip under the rollers on the machine.  Then how to use the machine for production stuff, even cookies, scones, anything.  Then I show them how to use it to roll out marzipan, fondant, caramel, etc for confectionery purposes.

Throughout all of my posts in the 10 odd years I've been on this site, It's always been my view that school should be a supplement to the repetition and day-to-day activities in the workplace.  

What the typical N. American culinary school offers is "Front end loading".  That is, to cram the student with theory and knowledge, and then let them loose on the employer to gain the muscle memory and motor skills required to master the technique or skills.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. ... I'm not a _"culinary instructor"._ I'm an elementary school/high school teacher that just happens to be a working chef, who doesn't earn enough to make a living at it. I work in a number of shelters, _for free_, to be able to offset my faults in life so that I can get into Heaven. I also teach _"cooking classes"_ to make whatever $$$ on the side ... and for the fame glory and women. I went to the CIA on the G.I.Bill until I ran out of $$$. I made the best of my time there learning what I could, not at all including manual labor skills, from the high-priced experts that happily took my $$$. I made them earn it. I can't at all tolerate bad kitchen help with poor work ethics.

I'd sit on this soap-box longer ... but the







are on.


----------

