# Walking off a job with no notice .... your thoughts?



## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Have you ever done it?

Would you admit to having done this if asked in an interview (or lie about it and say you've never done it)?

Do you think it was ok to leave without giving/working a 2 week notice or were you trying to hurt the restaurant/boss/co-workers? (I'm not talking about you give 2 weeks and they tell you to leave immediately.) 

Would you do it again? 

Have you ever ghosted an interview or stage? 

What is it about food service that makes this kind of behavior acceptable?


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Boy, that brings back memories. I did that on one of my first jobs as dishwasher at a university. Chef was an old school, overbearing, grumpy, angry old man. Lasted for some months under his obnoxious, pointless rude behavior before finally quitting. When I informed the F&B Director he just gave me a wry smile and said, "I don't blame you". 
Would I admit it in an interview? Absolutely. He was an a...ole and a thief and had I been older I probably would have punched him in the nose instead of just quitting. 
It isn't specific to food service. It happens in every profession.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

If you work at a job that doesn't work out you should leave under good conditions. I've always done my part and have always left the restaurant better for me being there. 

Knowing what I know now, I would lie through my butt to get everything I want. I also realize I would have to back up anything I said in order to get the position. In my case it was a matter of not having proof I could do something. It was just that I knew I could do it if given the chance. 

Most of the lies are on the business side. Most owners have short memories about what was promised in an interview. I guess they figure they have you so why bother filling through. 

As for giving proper notice. I don't let a businesses lack of integrity make me jeopardize mine.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

Nothing says that you have to "give notice". If you are employed in an "at will" state your boss can walk over to you and say you're fired without any explanation. Likewise you can leave at any time also.

So giving notice is something of a courtesy accorded to an employer who you feel deserves it, to give them time so they can perhaps hire a replacement. But if you feel like you can't take another minute of a toxic environment or you feel threatened, bullied or abused it's best just to not show up because if you agree to stay for another two weeks the situation will likely only escalate.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yup, did it about 4 mths ago. 
I was working almost 2 years with the exec.
Chef of a 200 rm hotel, chronic alcoholic, hands shaking like a paint mixer every morning when he walked in. Started every sentence off with an excuse, and was never to be found during the day. Anyway, he like to call up his staff after work on their phones when he was sh*tfaced. First time I let it slide, second time I played my phone for the H.R., third time I by-passed the H.R. and went straight to the G.M.

Well folks, I guess you know by now that there was a 4th time, but I did give 8 hrs notice, cleared out my locker the same day.

Does this count, jcakes?


Chef billyb, I have to disagree about mostly only employers/owners lying. Reading through applicant’s resumes I can pinpoint B.S. regarding length of stay, position, and salary. Watching new hires holding a tip on the outside of a piping bag and making a mess while claiming they worked as Cake decorators uh...”induced” me to call their bluff.

‘Course many owners lie through their teeth about salary and “after the probation period”, no denying that. But just as many employees lie outright about the things I mentioned in the above paragraph. And statistically, there are many more employees than employers.


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## linecookliz (Jun 8, 2017)

I have walked off of a job in the middle of my shift. Why? They were late with everyone's paycheck and screwed me on my overtime. They suspended the chef and I was the one she left in charge. Was working 14-16 hour days, got no recognition from the owners for it. Wasn't worth my mental energy nor time.
I have no showed on a stage because I was no longer interested in the position. I have also had it happen to me when I was a hiring manager. It is annoying but doesn't matter in the long run.
In my opinion it happens more in restaurants that are only out for the profit, treat their employees like crap and pay shit wages. Toxic environments aren't worth the money. 
When I do give my 2 weeks notice the employer cuts my hours and I have had my pay illegally cut. Then I had to threaten with lawsuits because I know my rights.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Have you ever done it? No, I can put up anybody for two weeks, I have to put with myself for the rest of my life.

Would you admit to having done this if asked in an interview (or lie about it and say you've never done it)? Yes, I have to live with myself for the rest of my life.

Have you ever ghosted an interview or stage? No, I have been ghosted, didn't like it, so won't do that to anybody else.

What is it about food service that makes this kind of behavior acceptable? It's not food service, it's people.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

linecookliz said:


> ...
> When I do give my 2 weeks notice the employer cuts my hours and I have had my pay illegally cut. Then I had to threaten with lawsuits because I know my rights.


I don't understand this. You want to quit, fine. If the employer cuts your hours, you work less at a place you don't want to work at in the first place, I'd consider that a bonus. If you don't work, you don't get paid, and there's no contract that said you will earn X $ per pay period.


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## linecookliz (Jun 8, 2017)

foodpump said:


> I don't understand this. You want to quit, fine. If the employer cuts your hours, you work less at a place you don't want to work at in the first place, I'd consider that a bonus. If you don't work, you don't get paid, and there's no contract that said you will earn X $ per pay period.


I do see your point. My mentality is a little different and that is fine. As a worker, I depend on my hours and pay. When I have given my 2 weeks the hours and pay I rely on are no longer there. I work FT so a 2 week transition can really fk with one's finances. I have come to learn to find a new job, quit the old and move on. It is what works best for me and my life. Cooks are always around to fill spots where I live so it is not too big of an issue for the owners. At the same time I've also been in management positions where people do not give a 2 weeks, and I am working twice as many hours now, exhausted, etc. I understand both sides of the equation.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I have quit without notice for only one job. I was being worked to death and being expected to produce for a catering company under ridiculous circumstances and found out that the owner was intentionally screwing my pay. After I found out I was basically not going to be compensated for all my extra time there was really no logical reason to stay and work two weeks just to not be paid for it. (Although I did come back for two days unpaid to finish a wedding catering because in the end it was not the staff or the clients fault for such a shitty employer.)

My work history is usually measured in long spans of time at a business so no one ever really asks me about leaving jobs.

I always go to interviews or stages even if I have already found something because the experience is good and you never know if something will come out of it.

I don't think it is limited to food service as I have seen people in other professions struggle with this. I think it may have more to do with pay and education levels rather than industry.


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## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

*Great topic! I have thoughts so it's good thing I'm on a message board : )*

Have you ever done it? *No, but I'm not above it either. I live in a "at will" state where giving notice is a courtesy not a requirement. Companies can cut me with out even blinking an eye (its happened) but companies don't get another job in my profession, people do, so I don't burn bridges.

I have been in some toxic and poor work environments but have always stuck it out. With that said, I've never been in a really bad situation either, crappy yes, but so bad as to have to have it out of my life ASAP. *

Would you admit to having done this if asked in an interview (or lie about it and say you've never done it)? *I don't have any of those crappy companies on my resume. Where there is a gap I've just put in my resume that "I took time off for an educational opportunity" and leave it at that. The two times it has happened to me I found out with in the first month and quit before it became to much to bear.. 
*
Do you think it was ok to leave without giving/working a 2 week notice or were you trying to hurt the restaurant/boss/co-workers? (I'm not talking about you give 2 weeks and they tell you to leave immediately.) *The only reason I give or not give a two week notice is based on how it will benefit or hurt me. Making decisions with hurting someone is dysfunctional thinking and puts me out of balance with the universe*

Would you do it again? *In regards to the two times in my life I've had to make the decision, yes, I would do it again.*

Have you ever ghosted an interview or stage? *No, this is immature behavior.. *

What is it about food service that makes this kind of behavior acceptable? *This happens in every industry, not just food service. In my humble opinion it's more prevalent in the food service industry because of the low bar to getting into the field. There are a lot of people who kick around food service that have a hard time working out their issues in a positive and healthy manner.. In my experience.. *


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

this whole thread falls back on money and the lack of a certification requirement to enter this industry. It is the biggest industry in the world. There major money behind this industry to brainwash entry level employees. It's ok to work 80 hours a week because you have the passion. Passion and hourly abuse can't be in the same sentence.
As far as giving notice when leaving employment. It's call ethics. Course here in the states younger people lack any ethics. I give them a pass. Look at the numbers. The countries high school graduates that go on to further education has dropped 41%.in the last 10 yrs.
You do the math.
Walking out from an egregious event is absolutely proper. But it's also your duty to make formal reports so it doesnt happen to those that follow.
never "live to work, work to live" thats life. work to receive compensation as to enjoy your time away from work.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

panini said:


> As far as giving notice when leaving employment. It's call ethics. Course here in the states younger people lack any ethics. I give them a pass. Look at the numbers. The countries high school graduates that go on to further education has dropped 41%.in the last 10 yrs.
> You do the math.


I'm confused as to what your point is here. And to paint "younger" people with such a broad brush is bad form, IMO. What do ethics and lack of further education have to do with each other?

The reduction in post high school education pursuit has to do with eroding opportunities for young people (i.e. less likely to see a ROI from a college degree, especially a masters) as well as the abhorrent cost of further education in the US. Doesn't make sense to commit to $50-100k in debt for a job that pays $15 an hour. It doesn't have anything to do with "ethics" or whatever nonsense.

If you want to tout ethics you should go after the companies that export jobs, stagnate wages, treat employees like disposable cattle, eliminated unions, eliminated healthcare, retirement savings, pensions, etc.

Companies won't take care of their employees yet you are quick to disparage "young" people for lack of ethics? Where do the ethics of businesses come into play? If companies want loyalty out of an employee then they have to be willing to invest in the things that keep employees loyal. But treating workers like garbage and somehow not expecting a revolving door of new hires and disposable workers is myopic.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

I agree. Don't equate lack of ethics in the younger generation with disillusionment and disgust.


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## PoorlyChef (May 30, 2019)

*someday, you are spot on. *

I have zero loyalty to any company anymore, only to people. I've had employers get mad at me when I've put in my notice. Really? They never cared one bit about me, they were only upset because it's a lot of work and costs them money to hire and train a new person.

One employer yelled at me and told me I was ruining his Hawaiian vacation. He was also the same person that sat across the table a month prior and said he couldn't give me much of a raise (even though I was exceeding expectations, his words not mine) because the government makes him pay employee taxes. He then proceeded to show me how much I cost him to work for his business.

At another company, I got laid off and made to work out a stated period of time (training a worker that my job was being outsourced to) to collect a severance. After that, I stopped giving a two week notice unless my immediate boss was a just and fair person that I respected. Otherwise, F*** them.. Loyalty goes both ways..


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

all wonderful responses. I don't disagree or agree. The name companies is a broad stroke to me.
I speak from the other side as an owner of 37 yrs. Simple fact is, there does not exist a skilled labor pool. I understand I may have knocked the younger culinarians but it was my point that they don't have the former opportunities to learn and receive mentoring. Those opportunities lie in the small business sector which is so volatile.
I get you your point. I'll sign off and not respond. Please note, I've had 17 interns that I consider my success over anything financial.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

BTW, I never post to argue or create confrontation. Been here for decades.
I apologize if I have offended anyone.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

No offense taken here panini, but if I may please?
What I take from your comment in that "ethics" meaning, *r**espect for ones' self* and this may be hard to come by these days with the younger generation.
Ethics, religion, personal integrity, all mold a person. It is taught, not natural.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

chefross said:


> No offense taken here panini, but if I may please?
> What I take from your comment in that "ethics" meaning, *r**espect for ones' self* and this may be hard to come by these days with the younger generation.
> Ethics, religion, personal integrity, all mold a person. It is taught, not natural.


That is a crock of BS.

I honestly started typing a lengthy takedown of this absolutely dumb line of thinking and stopped myself and erased it all. Probably not worth it, and unlikely to change your mind anyways.

I'll just say, I love how old people are responsible for the degradation of our society (I'm not saying you're right, but you talk about "teaching ethics" in your post...if you think that is true then doesn't that mean your generation failed to teach the next one ethics properly?) and then get mad when society starts to suck.

I've known just as many, if not more, morally corrupt, lazy, entitled old people than I have people of my age or younger. You live in a bubble...time to pop it.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Your right you won't change my mind. Let me ask you where you personal responsibility and ethics evolved from?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

chefross, you know the respect I've will always have for you.
*respect for ones' self, I'm not so sure I'm on board. I view it*
*as a moral philosophy, just for me that included all those around you.
I have no problem walking of a job, but before I make that move I make sure I'm not putting an undo burden on other innocent people.
just my 2 cents
Someday, come on. Thats a knee jerk response. ethics is absorbed from your environment. I'm old, I have a 30 yr old who is my moral compass
Please reconsider, no one is blaming the younger generation. Their the product of this environment. Technology has moved so fast, family life has become so hectic. the aspect of family is becoming lost. Ethics, 
edicate, things of that nature in my generation was mostly confirmed around the dinner table.*
just sayin, certainly not arguing


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

someday said:


> I've known just as many, if not more, morally corrupt, lazy, entitled old people than I have people of my age or younger.


Absolutely, but unfortunately many of them are also quite successful because of those ethics. Consequently there are some of the younger generation that would emulate those ethics to get ahead.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

someday said:


> I've known just as many, if not more, morally corrupt, lazy, entitled old people than I have people of my age or younger. You live in a bubble...time to pop it.


A-yup, this is true, and I work for some of them.

Thing is, if us oldies have issues the it's only fair that young people have issues.

Now, take for example phones in the kitchen. No one over the age of 40 would dream of whipping out a phone while on the meat slicer or in the walk in to chat with their friends or check on their status on social media. No one over the age of 40 would plug in earphones while working in a hot busy kitchen-therefore completely ignorant of communication around them, or getting a hot sheet pan jammed in their backs, or a broom or mop up their orifice because they didn't hear the command," behind you, you f#$&*-ing deaf eejit".*

So yeah us old people have issues, Im the first to admit it. Can you, would you, care to admit young people have issues too? Or is one party totally evil and corrupt and the other so picture perfect that they pee lemonade and fart rainbows?

* both of these incidents happened last week with employees under the age of 25. It took all of my self control not to yank the ( deleted) phone out of their hands and toss it in the deep fryer... Alas, I am a crusty old fart...who doesn't want to drive an eejit dripping blood all over my car to the Emerg...


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Mostly I was wondering why people walk out on jobs - and if employers ever ask if they have and why. Or how often ghosting happens. If there's no accountability, it will keep happening (for a multitude of reasons.) I'm interviewing staff at the moment and this is a tight job market but people are still ghosting on interviews, stages... I've started to wish for a forum to warn people about candidates who've ghosted or employees who've walked out because if you aren't interested in pursuing the position, say so. Don't waste my time setting up an interview or a stage and then don't show. And if you walk out and leave your co-workers high and dry, as an employer, I'd want to know that - and why.


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

what foodpump said.

I let someone go because she picked up her phone to answer a text while we were discussing production. She was on her phone constantly; and not just for the calculator or timer; I'm paying you to work, not to work out on social media on my dime. That's what a break is for. Catch up with your friends on YOUR time, not my dime.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

jcakes said:


> If there's no accountability, it will keep happening


What kind of accountability would you suggest?



jcakes said:


> ... employees who've walked out because if you aren't interested in pursuing the position, say so.


You need to keep in mind that an interview and trial period is as much for the employee as it is for the employer. A prospective employee should be interviewing you at the same time to decide if what you are telling them is what they want to hear. After that, if they are hired there is no way to know the actual working conditions until they have been there for awhile.

I will say though that if a candidate decides to not keep an appointment for an interview, courtesy would dictate a phone call stating such. Likewise, if a new employee decides after a period of time that the job is not a good fit for them, the courteous thing to do would be to give notice.



jcakes said:


> And if you walk out and leave your co-workers high and dry, as an employer, I'd want to know that - and why.


If a long time employee just doesn't show up one day, you probably haven't been doing your job as an employer if you don't know why.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Well, I may have taken a beating for my comment about personal responsibility, and I am not immune, as I did it twice in my career. I've had a long journey, both as an employee ,and as an employer. I genuinely see both sides. I've worked in some pretty badly managed places, as well as some really great ones.
For me....to end this, I'll just say that in order for someone to walk off a job they thought they loved, it has to be agonizing and frustrating to make that decision.
It stinks, and it's unfair, and everything else that goes along with it.
That being said, the restaurant industry, while it is vast, has along with it, a enduring theme that goes like this..."Don't burn your bridges at both ends."


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## Smffycult (Jul 7, 2019)

Just my two cents...

I recently returned to a kitchen I left in a bit of a hurry. I think back in May I decided that enough was enough but instead of walking I pulled the manager into the kitchen and told him that if he does not get someone to come and replace me then service is going to go down the sh*tter.

He did and I packed my bags and left. 

Then I applied for other jobs. One of which got back in touch right away, being eager I replied in less than thirty minutes with the dates I could go for trial, a few days later they got back in touch apologising for lack of response and new dates were agreed and then sure enough, a few days later I finally get confirmation that the dates were good but ultimately the position has been filled. Nearly two weeks of being messed about by a potential employer and being the vocal guy that I am, I made sure to tell them when they eventually got back in touch that no, I don't wish for my details to remain on file as they have shown themselves to be a company I no longer want to work for. 

Long story short, the next place I went to (a hotel) wasn't the best and I lasted less than week as a prep chef before telling the head chef that it wasn't for me, it simply wasn't busy enough nor was I enjoying the laid back atmosphere. 8am-2pm then back for 6pm til 9.30pm Monday to Friday. It was chushy but not for me. I like to be on the go all the time. I texted former boss of the place I left and asked if a position opens up to be considered, a few hours later I had been rehired.

Sure it was poor form to leave so suddenly but my attitude and work ethic up until that point had been spot on throughout and allowed me the opportunity to return. Just as when I left I ensured I was right and true with my review of the place, I didn't bad mouth the business, instead I defended it and suggested things I would have done differently if given the chance when speaking to other employers. 

Basically, it's a two way thing in my mind but walking off without a word or without giving a heads up isn't right. If I had to do it again I think I would have asked to finish for the day and just allow myself to calm down before jacking it in completely. Or at least get through the end of service and sleep on it.


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## harpua (May 4, 2005)

foodpump said:


> Yup, did it about 4 mths ago.
> I was working almost 2 years with the exec.
> Chef of a 200 rm hotel, chronic alcoholic, hands shaking like a paint mixer every morning when he walked in. Started every sentence off with an excuse, and was never to be found during the day. Anyway, he like to call up his staff after work on their phones when he was sh*tfaced. First time I let it slide, second time I played my phone for the H.R., third time I by-passed the H.R. and went straight to the G.M.


Hey I think we had the same chef! He used to bring me personal documents in which he needed to sign, and have me to it for him because his hands were shaking so bad. It was his "blood sugar." Felt bad for the guy, you could tell he means well, but he had his demons. Had a seizure on the line on Thanksgiving Day.


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## bessiebeardsley (Apr 14, 2020)

I also changed the job where I worked for 12 years and I am in depression now and I left with no notice.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I remember thinking over the years about being in a position when someone said to me, Come on, no one will know. I always thought to myself, I'll know. We all have to live with our decisions. We should also learn by them, hopefully before we get too far out of wack. I never walked out of a job because I knew how it felt to be walked out on. This business is hard enough on a good day. I have given my notice and then told to leave early. There isn't much loyalty in this business. In many cases you here stories about Chefs working many years in a kitchen only to be replaced by someone else. This is a business we need to be at the top of our game everyday. No one cares what we did yesterday. I remember thinking I was a bit depressed about ending my career. After a few weeks and over 30 years in this business I thought that it was better to leave on a high note. We all give so much to this profession. Make sure you leave it with the high moral standards that you have made you successful over the years........ChefBillyB


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## ShelteredBugg1 (May 1, 2019)

jcakes said:


> Mostly I was wondering why people walk out on jobs - and if employers ever ask if they have and why. Or how often ghosting happens. If there's no accountability, it will keep happening (for a multitude of reasons.) I'm interviewing staff at the moment and this is a tight job market but people are still ghosting on interviews, stages... I've started to wish for a forum to warn people about candidates who've ghosted or employees who've walked out because if you aren't interested in pursuing the position, say so. Don't waste my time setting up an interview or a stage and then don't show. And if you walk out and leave your co-workers high and dry, as an employer, I'd want to know that - and why.


I like to believe that things like that happen because of the lack of passion of the actual craft most people use kitchen work as means of pay no passion an integrity is put into it. Alot of people don't see cooking as an art


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

Smffycult said:


> Just my two cents...
> 
> I recently returned to a kitchen I left in a bit of a hurry. I think back in May I decided that enough was enough but instead of walking I pulled the manager into the kitchen and told him that if he does not get someone to come and replace me then service is going to go down the sh*tter.
> 
> ...


No offense but your first manager must have been desperate, I would have never hired you back.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

jcakes said:


> Mostly I was wondering why people walk out on jobs - and if employers ever ask if they have and why. Or how often ghosting happens. If there's no accountability, it will keep happening (for a multitude of reasons.) I'm interviewing staff at the moment and this is a tight job market but people are still ghosting on interviews, stages... I've started to wish for a forum to warn people about candidates who've ghosted or employees who've walked out because if you aren't interested in pursuing the position, say so. Don't waste my time setting up an interview or a stage and then don't show. And if you walk out and leave your co-workers high and dry, as an employer, I'd want to know that - and why.


Yeah I always do phone interview and lay out all the basics of the job and compensation ahead of time so there are no surprises. If they agree to the terms I will bring them into an interview and I still get ghosted. I feel a lot of these people don't actually want jobs, just to be able to show the unemployment office they are applying to places. The food scene here has always been close knit and chefs will hear about people acting this way and it will unofficially blacklist people. So while your job may be horrible, I don't really see why people can't give notice, you may luck out and your boss will tell you to leave right then. People claim to be professionals and want to be treated like such but they need to act like it first.


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## mystickrewe (Apr 27, 2015)

someday said:


> I've known just as many, if not more, morally corrupt, lazy, entitled old people than I have people of my age or younger.


I think it has nothing to do with age. It's all about *empathy*. Some employers have it and some don't. Some know what it's like to go through the ring of fire and show more respect to up and comers, and others were born into privilege and never had to work their asses off just to have a place to sleep.

In my younger days I got shit on all the time by sociopathic bosses who used me like a commodity. I thought that was just how it goes. I also had bosses that were hard on me, but they also cared about me. It took me a long time to realize there's a big difference between the two.

Now that I'm older, I definitely meter my return consideration significantly based on the context. I don't know if that's wanting to inflict karma on people, or it's a function of having more freedom to do so? But ultimately I think you get what you give. And you give what you get. I'm less inclined to cut slack to somebody who wouldn't show me the same favor.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

mystickrewe said:


> I think it has nothing to do with age. It's all about *empathy*. Some employers have it and some don't. Some know what it's like to go through the ring of fire and show more respect to up and comers, and others were born into privilege and never had to work their asses off just to have a place to sleep.
> 
> In my younger days I got shit on all the time by sociopathic bosses who used me like a commodity. I thought that was just how it goes. I also had bosses that were hard on me, but they also cared about me. It took me a long time to realize there's a big difference between the two.
> 
> Now that I'm older, I definitely meter my return consideration significantly based on the context. I don't know if that's wanting to inflict karma on people, or it's a function of having more freedom to do so? But ultimately I think you get what you give. And you give what you get. I'm less inclined to cut slack to somebody who wouldn't show me the same favor.


I'm not sure why you quoted me. My post was in direct response to someone who said something like "young people have no ethics" as if that blanket, absurd statement has any real meaning beyond an old man shaking his fist at a world that has passed him by.

I was pointing out that any perceived "lack of ethics," or whatever you want to call it, is a human thing, not an age thing.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

someday said:


> I'm not sure why you quoted me. My post was in direct response to someone who said something like "young people have no ethics" as if that blanket, absurd statement has any real meaning beyond an old man shaking his fist at a world that has passed him by.
> 
> I was pointing out that any perceived "lack of ethics," or whatever you want to call it, is a human thing, not an age thing.


While I agree that it is more of a "human thing" rather than specific to any group, I will say as employing a wide range or staff of varying ages, races and economic backgrounds the younger workers (school aged to early twenties) seem to be the laziest and least principled of the bunch. Obviously that is only going off of my own experience but since I a basically keeping a constant in the kitchen with my expectations and treatment of employees evenly regardless of any of these items it is only logical to equate some of those negative issues with what they all have in common. I'm not saying that anyone over a certain age can never be a bad lazy employee and vice versa under a certain age, just that I never have to ask my older workers to get off their phone and go do something or reprimand them for cutting corners with something.


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## mystickrewe (Apr 27, 2015)

I agree with both you guys. I do think it's not necessarily an age thing, but age does have a factor in how empathetic people can be. Younger people are probably on average more self-absorbed, often bundles of raging hormones that are more reactive than proactive. So I guess it can go either way.

As far as walking off on a job, I think it depends on the context. It can be responsible or irresponsible IMO. If you're being abused, I see no reason to give 2 weeks notice you're willing to be more abused.


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## Mischief (Dec 13, 2018)

I think what often gets lost in the mix is that phone's are much more of a tool that can be used in the kitchen and other ways in life. The younger generation often gets labeled lazy for "playing on their phones" when they are actually working. Not to say that some of them aren't playing on their phones, just that people might be surprised how often that tool can be used for good. The pure size of my venue dictates that I need to be on my phone throughout my day to coordinate events on separate floors, caterings off site, corporate emails, multiple vendors, being in communication with our marketing team and maintenance crew, etc. There's not enough time in my day to do all these things and run the kitchen without my phone. Now, my venue is atypical and I wouldn't need my phone hardly ever at my previous position.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Of course! But mngmt and sales are different from production, which is what most cooks are. 

Not saying that “devices” aren’t useful in the kitchen, for looking up recipies, videos or pics of techniques or processes, or calculating.

My issue is one of addiction, because I seem to recognize that many younger employees can’t go 20 minutes without checking up on social media, and this has nothing to do with work. Once again I stress that what you do on your break time is your business, but if you have to check on social media every 20 mins, or have “alerts” every ten mins, while doing production work you have an addiction problem.


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## ShelteredBugg1 (May 1, 2019)

foodpump said:


> Of course! But mngmt and sales are different from production, which is what most cooks are.
> 
> Not saying that "devices" aren't useful in the kitchen, for looking up recipies, videos or pics of techniques or processes, or calculating.
> 
> My issue is one of addiction, because I seem to recognize that many younger employees can't go 20 minutes without checking up on social media, and this has nothing to do with work. Once again I stress that what you do on your break time is your business, but if you have to check on social media every 20 mins, or have "alerts" every ten mins, while doing production work you have an addiction problem.


You just work with lazy asses don't let those people paint the picture of the working class for this Gen. .


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah, I know. Problem is, every place I work at it’s the same problem, with a maybe 10% exception rate. I love working with the 10% ers though.

Then again, I still haven’t deleted my dash-cam footage of this ( deleted) eejit who was texting while skateboarding. For the sake of anyone in any generation I Hope said ejit is the exception...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Taken as a whole no generation alive today has less to gain from their hard work than the youth of today. If there ever was any loyalty from employers [spoiler alert- there wasn't] then it's completely gone today. As the industry consolidates behind big chains and private equity funds the worker's share of the productivity gains will fall even further than it already has. When burger flipping robots get cheap enough- and they already are for some businesses- then the cook is out on her ass. CEOs are making a killing while the inflation-adjusted wages of workers hasn't increased since I was born over 50 years ago. If you cook in the USA, count on no pension, no benefits, no paid sick leave and little to room for advancement. Yeah, one in 50 of those young cooks will pour their life's blood into it and work their way up to making an upper-lower class living after ten or fifteen years of sacrificing everything and putting in 70 hour weeks.

Right now the industry has been skating by surviving on the Protestant work ethic, using people up and tossing them aside, wringing out what they can before the kids realize they're getting virtually nothing in exchange for their work. It's going to be a hard sell as people begin to figure it out. As we move further down the path of the "Bullshit Job Economy" it's going to tough to convince a kid to work 12 hours on his feet in 100 degree heat to make $5/hr less than they'd make in a call center.

If we want to get some passion and commitment out of Gen Z we will probably have to earn it for a change.


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## ShelteredBugg1 (May 1, 2019)

foodpump said:


> Yeah, I know. Problem is, every place I work at it's the same problem, with a maybe 10% exception rate. I love working with the 10% ers though.
> 
> Then again, I still haven't deleted my dash-cam footage of this ( deleted) eejit who was texting while skateboarding. For the sake of anyone in any generation I Hope said ejit is the exception...


You need to post that!! Did he fall!? Yes most these kids have had everything handed to them i see it with my siblings they are little pieces of shite. Our problem as the younger youth we expect to be at the top without putting the hard work and learning all the ins and outs of the industry we are participating in. #ENTITLED


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Phaedrus,

That was one heckuva post, and I agree with a large portion of it.
However, the people I work with—those in between 18 and 40 are not lazy, they do work hard, it’s just that many can’t work 2 hours without checking on social media. I don’t get upset when they whip out and stare at their phones while waiting for an elevator at work, but I do get upset when I find them perched on a mayo bucket in the walk in, texting.

The industry in n.america is crap because there are no standards for the industry to adhere to. wages are crap because their are no standards or qualifications for cooks—or for servers. Nothing will change until standards are introduced. In some of the first world countries I’ve worked in the above standards are the prerogative of gov’ts and trade unions. Then again I still can’t comprehend how many States can a have a minimum wage, and yet still have a “tipping wage” far, far, far below that standard minimum wage.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think things are probably a bit better for workers overall where you live, foodpump. The majority of the unwashed masses in the USA live hand-to-mouth, paycheck-to-paycheck with virtually no security. Our system kind of requires it- we have the carrot of potential wealth no matter how unlikely and the stick of becoming homeless and destitute if we take our foot off the gas pedal for even a moment.

But the phone thing...yeah, I see that too. People are conditioned to feel like they're drowning if they don't check their social media every fifteen minutes. Of course those platforms were designed that way to maximize ad revenue and profits for Facebook, TikTok, Instagram and probably a dozen other platforms I'm too old and uncool to be able to name. :rofl:

Standards and qualifications would perhaps help but the bigger issue is that over 50% of all the wealth of the US in concentrated in the hands of a couple dozen people. Interestingly while millions of food service workers lost their jobs during the pandemic, eight billionaires in the US saw their combined net worth increase by _half a trillion dollars_! It's fast becoming a zero sum game in the US.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

phaedrus said:


> Taken as a whole no generation alive today has less to gain from their hard work than the youth of today. If there ever was any loyalty from employers [spoiler alert- there wasn't] then it's completely gone today. As the industry consolidates behind big chains and private equity funds the worker's share of the productivity gains will fall even further than it already has. When burger flipping robots get cheap enough- and they already are for some businesses- then the cook is out on her ass. CEOs are making a killing while the inflation-adjusted wages of workers hasn't increased since I was born over 50 years ago. If you cook in the USA, count on no pension, no benefits, no paid sick leave and little to room for advancement. Yeah, one in 50 of those young cooks will pour their life's blood into it and work their way up to making an upper-lower class living after ten or fifteen years of sacrificing everything and putting in 70 hour weeks.
> 
> Right now the industry has been skating by surviving on the Protestant work ethic, using people up and tossing them aside, wringing out what they can before the kids realize they're getting virtually nothing in exchange for their work. It's going to be a hard sell as people begin to figure it out. As we move further down the path of the "Bullshit Job Economy" it's going to tough to convince a kid to work 12 hours on his feet in 100 degree heat to make $5/hr less than they'd make in a call center.
> 
> If we want to get some passion and commitment out of Gen Z we will probably have to earn it for a change.


Fantastic post, thank you.



foodpump said:


> However, the people I work with-those in between 18 and 40 are not lazy, they do work hard, it's just that many can't work 2 hours without checking on social media. I don't get upset when they whip out and stare at their phones while waiting for an elevator at work, but I do get upset when I find them perched on a mayo bucket in the walk in, texting.


How do you feel about smokers and smoke breaks? A lot of older people I've worked with feel entitled to take a 10-15 minute smoke break every couple of hours while working. How is popping a squat on a bucket in the walk in fundamentally different than popping a squat outside on a milk crate and having a smoke?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

For me, whatever you do on your break is your business. If you want to have a smoke, do it on your break and don’t leave your butts behind. 

This has been policy in virtually any place I work, and the only ones who don’t follow it are the ones in upper management. The ones that do abuse it and who aren’t in management were invariably disciplined


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## mystickrewe (Apr 27, 2015)

foodpump said:


> The industry in n.america is crap because there are no standards for the industry to adhere to. wages are crap because their are no standards or qualifications for cooks-or for servers. Nothing will change until standards are introduced. In some of the first world countries I've worked in the above standards are the prerogative of gov'ts and trade unions. Then again I still can't comprehend how many States can a have a minimum wage, and yet still have a "tipping wage" far, far, far below that standard minimum wage.


Welcome to 21st century capitalism! Where (in America) a massage therapist who squirts some baby oil on someone's leg and rubs it, is more heavily, more ethically regulated, than an I.T. guy who is in charge of a billion patients' very personal health and financial information.

Industries that came of age after the dergulation boom of the 80s don't have the same kind of limitations put on themselves that older fields do. A bad lawyer can lose their license. But a bad computer guy or chef, can simply move on to the next client, wreaking havoc.

Unfortunately, I don't see this changing any time soon. Those with the money have the political power, and the ability to scream, "This will cost jerbs!" at the thought of more humane pay, ethics and competence standards for employees


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, yeah, but cooking since the ‘80’s? Cooking is the um, cough, second oldest profession in the world.

The time will come...

I remember working in Switzerland in the early ‘80’s. Employers ( Swiss hotels, mainly) were screaming for staff. Why didn’t people flock to their employees entrances like they did for the last 100 years? So they actually paid money to find out. The answer hurt, and they refused to acknowledge it at first, but gradually the big fat hotel owners were forced to acknowledge that every other industry in Switzerland worked a 5 day week, the hospitality industry didn’t. So it was that in 1982 the hospitality industry introduced a 5 day week,

Of course, in most parts of Asia hospitality workers still work a 6 day week in 2020...


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

Let me think about this... Yes. Twice. 

One was a breakfast house where I was a potwasher/dishwasher, the owner was offensive, abusive, liked to curse out his employees... the bottom line was when he screamed at me (in the middle of breakfast service) "I pay you w€****k$ to take my abuse (mind you, none of us were hispanic), now shut your (deleted) pie hole up and get the (deleted) to work, you lazy (deleted), or leave". I left. 

The other I worked as a line cook for an upscale breakfast/lunch place. I had been there less than a week, and went to set up the cold table for crepes / omlets - the reach in seemed not cold, and when I pulled covers off the 6th pans was left with maggot infested ham, rotten veggies, moldy cheese, etc. I checked the temp of the reach in, and when it went over 60 degrees (!!!) told the chef/owner we were in serious trouble, and needed to cancel brunch - he told me no way in (deleted), and I WAS going to use the condiments and serve this to the customers. 

That was probably the only time I called the health department's emergency line on an employer. And I would do it again. Needless to say, his business lasted about 3 months, and was closed (with health dept warnings on the door) most of that.


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## Zobor (Nov 12, 2020)

foodpump said:


> Of course, in most parts of Asia hospitality workers still work a 6 day week in 2020.


It's true, In south-east Asia, they work 6 days a week. And very fewer wages compared to western and Europe countries.


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

I PRAYED for 6 day weeks... That said "you made it"... When I got a 5 day Sched (Tues to Sat Evenings in the seafood dinnerhouse) I was exstatic. THAT is what you hope for - not only to show Chef what you're made of, but the customers out there that YOU can make THEM happy campers!!! And the boss or owner recognizes YOU are a valued part of their team.

When I realized I was good enough to ask for 5 day weeks and got it I knew I had kinda sorta made it. When you're that good, you're that good. When I went to PT (Because I had a job that gave me benefits and a retirement package) and Chef said "Are you committed"... I asked him "Do you have a retirement package with health care?"... He thought about it, and said "OK, I understand".

Do I wish Foods gave me that option? Absolutely I do. But I also (thanks to an exec who brought me to reality) realized I needed to look out for me, and where I was was GREAT, but it wasn't gonna pay the bills when I was 70. So (at his advice) I got a career Civil Service job, got my retirement, and now I want to go back and rock some restaruant like it's standing still.

Back to the subject - you take EVERYTHING you can grab. And you make EVERYTHING you can out of it. KEEP LOOKING TO THE STARS, becauseif you have the love and the passion, you WILL make it - even IF you have to take a 30 year "hiatus" to make sure when you go back your butt is covered.

If you can't handle 6 day weeks, go elsewhere, because this isn't the life for you. This isn't for the money - AS ANY Chef will tell you (or any who is worth his or her salt), it's for the PASSION!!! And when you HAVE the passion, then you make the money.


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## ShelteredBugg1 (May 1, 2019)

L'uovo vulcanico said:


> Let me think about this... Yes. Twice.
> 
> One was a breakfast house where I was a potwasher/dishwasher, the owner was offensive, abusive, liked to curse out his employees... the bottom line was when he screamed at me (in the middle of breakfast service) "I pay you w€****k$ to take my abuse (mind you, none of us were hispanic), now shut your (deleted) pie hole up and get the (deleted) to work, you lazy (deleted), or leave". I left.
> 
> ...


What does being hispanic have to do with anything ?


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

ShelteredBugg1 said:


> What does being hispanic have to do with anything ?


To that guy, anyone working back of house was "hispanic" (tho he had other choice words for it) - that's why the "[email protected]" and "sp!ck" comment shouted by the owner with a front end full of customers... he thought all hispaics were lazy, selfish bums, so he decided "we" (as back of house) needed to be watched and ridden... because he decided if you worked back of house, you had to be hispanic. Plus he felt, as we were "untermenchen", he could scream profanities at us with abandon, as we well deserved it.

THAT'S what "hispanic" has to do with it. Hope you don't get to deal with a racist, mysognist and otherwise disgusting owner in your career...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi L'uovo,
The comment about 6 day weeks in most parts of Asia has to be considered with monthly salaries in mind, as hourly wages are virtually unheard of there.

My personal motto/way of thinking about cooking ( and baking) is very simple :
" what I cook is for the customer, _how_ _I cook is for me"_

Thus, if the owner/Chef works less hours than me, they don't earn my respect, if they refuse to invest in proper equipment and instead spend money on decor in the dining room, they dont earn my respect, if they insult or abuse staff, or b.s. them, they don't earn my respect, if a server gives me a bill with 4 modifiers on it and then in the course of the evening tells me how they'll buy a new iphone with the tips from that table and not even buy a pitcher of Pepsi for the kitchen, they don't earn my respect.

When this happens, I keep my head down, continue to produce quality, and in my free time look for a better job.

Maybe this pandemic will flush out all the crappy places, maybe it won't. Some CDN city Mayors have started to hassle delivery services like skip the dishes / uber eats and the like for charging a whopping 35% of the food prices for deliveries, not because they give a sh*t about the restaurants, but they know that restaurants pay 3-400 % more in property taxes , and the delivery services don't even have an office.


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## STEPHEN WOODARD (Aug 13, 2019)

At the end of the day, you serve the customer. If you have no regard for the customer, then you have no regard for yourself as a chef. When you hit management, it a must to leave an appropriate notice. I start with a month. I also would hope you are firmly seated within the organization and can help hire and train a replacement. No matter what the situation, you have to have principles. Family and health are the only things that trump it. Good luck.


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## L'uovo vulcanico (Nov 9, 2020)

I agree with you, Stephen.

If you are a laborer in a shop and your chef or his/her minions are abusive, offensive, or dangerous (to yourself or your customers) then I still say yes, you have the right to protect yourself. BUT...

IF you are in a position of management - say sous chef or better, F&B manager, Maitre d', etc.) where you ARE management, then you have an obligation to your shop to give at least a minimum notice - Even IF it's an emergency, you have to have an exit plan in place (know who can run your job until someone else is hred by the owners) because unlike "labor", the restaurant and its rep rests on your shoulders.

I watched an exec chef at a dinnerhouse announce on a Wednesday after service that the upcoming Sunday would be his last. He was starting his own shop, and had poached some of our talent to go with him (a Garde Manger, 2 lines, 2 preps, and a sous). It wasn't because the owners were stingy or assholes, they just felt no loyalty to them. We didn't know his "buddies" were leaving until the Saturday before "D-Day". It left an impression on me that stuck - his departure (and draining a huge part of our resources) really hammered our shop. He could have let the owners know "Hey, one month from today, I'm off to my own adventure". The "voyagers" could have done the same. Instead they all walked, and the rest of us were left holding the bag. Left some of us with a bad taste in our mouths... We found a so-so replacement to keep the doors open, did a lot of job shuffling and "walk-in" hires, it was shaky for a long time.

As an exec or sous or sure, even a garde, the restaurant rides on your shoulders. Just like how it was when you were running it, you owe them the same professionalism when you leave them. Otherwise - what kind of professional are you?


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## Chef Piya (Dec 13, 2020)

Dear Post Master, 
I have never done this, but honestly I would appreciate if there a candidate would tell me the truth that's matter of honest and integrity which all chefs need from their cooks. eventually we will all learn how to deal with stuffs more professional way. for me either employer deserves or not for our notice, I am still giving my notice before I left the property, It is about your professionalism and commitment that you have for your team members/co-workers because that's how you been remember and in this small world we came across and might working together again.


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