# One man pastry shop?



## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

Hi

I was wondering if it possible to do a one-man pastry shop and have someone to be the cashier


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Depends.

If you are so busy that you need a dedicated FOH/cashier you will most likely need help in the back as well.

Does this cashier do any washing or sweeping?

Scaling ingredients and prep?

mimi


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

Sure, it can be done. But you won't last long.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Any successful pastry shop or bakery will tell you that bread and butter come from wholesale accounts. The front cash register doesn't make money, or iif it does, it just barely covers costs.

So, in answer to your question, yes you can have a cashier. But who will supervise the cashier? If this person is your partner--either business or personal, or better yet, both business and personal partner, yes. It will work. If this person is someone you pay $14/hr and plead to work straight 8hr 5day weeks, no it won't work.

Hope this explains things,


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

flipflopgirl said:


> Depends.
> 
> If you are so busy that you need a dedicated FOH/cashier you will most likely need help in the back as well.
> 
> ...


I can probably make the FOH/cashier to do some washing and sweeping on downtime


chefpeon said:


> Sure, it can be done. But you won't last long.




what if it a niche type of product? a shortbread cookie business for example with different flavours


foodpump said:


> Any successful pastry shop or bakery will tell you that bread and butter come from wholesale accounts. The front cash register doesn't make money, or iif it does, it just barely covers costs.
> 
> So, in answer to your question, yes you can have a cashier. But who will supervise the cashier? If this person is your partner--either business or personal, or better yet, both business and personal partner, yes. It will work. If this person is someone you pay $14/hr and plead to work straight 8hr 5day weeks, no it won't work.
> 
> Hope this explains things,


really...

I didn't know pastry shops can make most of their money wholesale accounts. I understand bakeries because of breads and other related products.

So you think it better to do wholesale accounts entirely and instead of cashier, get someone to work in the kitchen

it possible I could get my mom as a partner handling the management because she is a finance account manager and planning to retire next year


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

While I agree with everyone else. I will add a big, fat, Don't do it. Don't even try it. You are creating unrealistic expectations for yourself and developing a perfect recipe for disaster. 

    No one does any small business by themselves. While computers can  do an amazing job of helping you keep track of expenses, receipts and the rest, they are no substitute for getting done all the jobs that need doing. 

     Sit down and think hard about what it will take to run the business you envision. Consider all the various tasks involved, including those already mentioned, bookkeeping, sweeping, cash register, making delivery, actually baking the food, accepting delivery, answering the phone. putting the delivery away, general cleaning and maintenance, customer relations and on and on.  Do you realistically see yourself doing all the baking, washing all the pots and pans, cleaning the floor, as well as everything else all by your self? 

You will also need a good accountant. I have no doubt your mom is a fine woman and good at her job. You still need a good accountant. 

     Based on what ever product or products you wish to produce, create a realistic scenario for making a successful business with no artificial limitations. Having an idea of the number of people you will need will help you plan out your labor costs realistically so you are not caught short financially when the time comes to hire them. If you start by yourself, when the time comes to seek help, you won't have the time to worry about it.  Worry about it now.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I have been keeping up with you (thru your posts so don't get all creeped out lol) Tosh.

You were always on this slow but determined path to independence while working for the "dessert Nazi" who wouldn't buy you any tart rings and was really restrictive with the ingredients.

Are you still there or have you moved on?

A successful business (no matter what industry) starts with a bit of deep thinking and research  (this part may change so don't feel like you are tied to your first product(s).

Look around and figure out who needs what and then figure out how to go about making it happen.

Get a spiral notebook (old school yeah...but it won't crash and burn with all of your notes flying into cyber space lol) and start writing.

Doesn't matter if you think it is silly or won't ever work in a zillion years...

Eventually things will start to fall into place.

Good luck!

mimi


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Yes you can, in a small town, where rent is very low.

Electric ovens.

One triple sink.

Wake up at 2am.  Work, close at 11am.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Taking into consideration what you are wanting to bake which is shortbread, I would recommend you find a local farmers market and start from there. That way you can experiment with the reception from your local customers as to whether your idea is a good one or not. This will also allow you to be a one man show and let you get a feel for what it is like trying to balance all jobs without massive overhead responsibility. Just a thought amounst many. 
Listen to those above and research and write a business plan. Without one you will most definitely fail!!


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

kuan said:


> Yes you can, in a small town, where rent is very low.
> 
> Electric ovens.
> 
> ...


Doughnut shop!

I love donuts.

mimi


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

flipflopgirl said:


> Doughnut shop!
> 
> I love donuts.
> 
> mimi


Donut shop would be around 5am though.  It's a bit simpler.


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

chefwriter said:


> While I agree with everyone else. I will add a big, fat, Don't do it. Don't even try it. You are creating unrealistic expectations for yourself and developing a perfect recipe for disaster.
> 
> No one does any small business by themselves. While computers can do an amazing job of helping you keep track of expenses, receipts and the rest, they are no substitute for getting done all the jobs that need doing.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on all points... I was hoping that someone would say it possible lol ... just want to confirm my doubts


flipflopgirl said:


> I have been keeping up with you (thru your posts so don't get all creeped out lol) Tosh.
> 
> You were always on this slow but determined path to independence while working for the "dessert Nazi" who wouldn't buy you any tart rings and was really restrictive with the ingredients.
> 
> ...


that so cool... I never got a stalker before lol .. no worries

Yeah unfortunately I'm still working for the dessert nazi lol... I have been trying to find another job because it tough because I'm hearing impaired and employers are ignorant

Also the reason I thought of opening a pastry shop because working for someone is not going to make enough money for me to live on my own. I currently make 16/hour which is probably around 30k for the year. So far I saved up around 100k for the business.

either I open a pastry shop (huge start up and a lot of work managing), go back to school for a new career (*crying* I don't wanna lol), find an entry job in another industry and work my way up


kuan said:


> Yes you can, in a small town, where rent is very low.
> 
> Electric ovens.
> 
> ...


I live in Oakville, Ontario, Canada which is a part of the GTA and it one of the most expensive places to live in Ontario. Oakville population alone is 200k and will increase to 250k by 2031. GTA popular is 6.8 million and will increase to 8.5 million in 2031... don't think it a small town lol


Fablesable said:


> Taking into consideration what you are wanting to bake which is shortbread, I would recommend you find a local farmers market and start from there. That way you can experiment with the reception from your local customers as to whether your idea is a good one or not. This will also allow you to be a one man show and let you get a feel for what it is like trying to balance all jobs without massive overhead responsibility. Just a thought amounst many.
> Listen to those above and research and write a business plan. Without one you will most definitely fail!!


Shortbread cookie is just an example but I agree with what you are saying

But how can I sell them at a local farmers market? because don't I have to bake in a legal kitchen since I'm not allow to bake at home and sell them to the public


flipflopgirl said:


> Doughnut shop!
> 
> I love donuts.
> 
> mimi


I really do like doughnuts lol ... oakville surprisingly doesn't have a doughnut shop.. we have two independent small mom and pop bakeries, a cupcake shop, a cookie shop, a big bakery but mass produce stuffs and bringing things in from other companies and a few grocery store bakeries,


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

OK seriously here.  You can do production yourself but you have to be very efficient.  I worked in a pastry shop once under an extremely proficient pastry chef.  Production for about 15 hours of work per day was more or less...

50 baguettes in two batches

4 cheesecake

4 truffle mousse cakes

20 focaccia

12 servings strudel or some other pastry

20 creme brulee or chocolate mousse

If you work yourself for 5 hours you might achieve one batch baguettes plus 2-4 other items depending how good you are.  You are not going to do well doing just shortbread.  Believe me.  It's good one time and that's it.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

In Ontario you are allowed to bake from home doing only low-risk type foods such as bread, cookies, fruit pies, doughnuts, etc. As long as they do not have any potentially hazardous food items such as quiches, or meat pies say. Also, those items baked from home may only be sold at a farmers market......no where else. This is a good thing however, as you can experiment as to what you would like to bake and what the reception will be to that baked good in your area. It can help you with connection to your community you will be selling to as well as get your name out there for when you do open a brick and mortar place. As you go along you can expand on your baked goods menu according to the response towards those baked goods. Easy!


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

kuan said:


> OK seriously here. You can do production yourself but you have to be very efficient. I worked in a pastry shop once under an extremely proficient pastry chef. Production for about 15 hours of work per day was more or less...
> 
> 50 baguettes in two batches
> 
> ...


interesting


Fablesable said:


> In Ontario you are allowed to bake from home doing only low-risk type foods such as bread, cookies, fruit pies, doughnuts, etc. As long as they do not have any potentially hazardous food items such as quiches, or meat pies say. Also, those items baked from home may only be sold at a farmers market......no where else. This is a good thing however, as you can experiment as to what you would like to bake and what the reception will be to that baked good in your area. It can help you with connection to your community you will be selling to as well as get your name out there for when you do open a brick and mortar place. As you go along you can expand on your baked goods menu according to the response towards those baked goods. Easy!


Shut up! I can?! the whole time I thought I can't do it because I need a separate kitchen


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

I know riiiiight!! Look into it more and ask your local farmers markets what is needed. It's a way you can also work on your labelling, branding and marketing to get it right.

http://farmfreshmarkets.ca/oakville-farmers-market/

http://www.halton.ca/cms/One.aspx?pageId=19091

http://www.oakvillecivitan.ca/market.html

http://www.farmersmarketsontario.com/Markets.cfm?uSortOrder=ZoneName

Cookies are the easiest to make and transport as well as store and package so I would recommend starting with them and working in some other stuff from there. Be different and unique by offering both savoury and sweet cookies. Pay attention to your labelling, brand and social media awareness. Put a plan of action together and then get out there and DO IT!! Cheapest way to experiment with different approaches and baked goods until you know for certain what you want to offer and have a sort of cult following to your products. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

Fablesable said:


> I know riiiiight!! Look into it more and ask your local farmers markets what is needed. It's a way you can also work on your labelling, branding and marketing to get it right.
> 
> http://farmfreshmarkets.ca/oakville-farmers-market/
> 
> ...


thank you the suggestions and links

Do you know why it ok for farmers market to allow people to sell things that are made at home? they don't ask questions or something?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

The cottage law in Texas only allows you to sell from home and last I checked you can't even deliver,pick up only (which I am sure the HOA's have fits over ;-)

The farmers markets were totally verboten as well.

I love the Canuks!

mimi

edit...I still vote for the donuts.

Can drag the still asleep Grand to work and send her off to school with a big bag of good grades!

mimi

Good luck Tosh!

m.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

It is only ok for LOW RISK foods. So certain baked goods are in that category. As Mimi has said above, DONUTS, cookies, muffins, cupcakes, etc are on that list however, certain additions are not on that list like when you add cheese or meat into the equation then it falls into the category of moderate risk foods and that must be made in a commercial kitchen. All is not lost however because you can rent a commercial kitchen by just asking around local restaurants that are only open in the evenings are great places to rent the kitchen from 6am-2pm. Lots of places if approached with this in mind will be happy to make a little extra money from you using their kitchen. There is always ways around anything if one thinks outside the box while staying FOOD SAFE.

I would suggest starting with the cookies or doughnut category first and go from there. I know 4 cookie companies here in Edmonton that are rocking and rolling JUST DOING COOKIES and all of them started at the farmers markets. They are actually still at the farmers markets yet some now

own a brick and mortar shop as well. Check them out for inspiration:

http://www.confettisweets.ca

http://www.cookielove.ca

http://www.bloomcookieco.ca

http://milkandcookiesbakeshop.ca

https://sugaredandspiced.ca

http://www.moonshinedoughnuts.ca

Start small in your own kitchen and go big when you need to expand. These guys all started in their own kitchens and then expanded into a commercial kitchen. Here are some great commercial kitchens to rent for your experimental pleasure in your area:

http://alimentaryinitiatives.com/hot-kitchens-to-rent/

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-ind...nt/1211121762?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

http://www.thekitchencollective.ca/index.php/about

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/industry/bdb-start/firststeps.htm

Hope some of this inspires and helps you figure your own way /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

flipflopgirl said:


> The cottage law in Texas only allows you to sell from home and last I checked you can't even deliver,pick up only (which I am sure the HOA's have fits over ;-)
> 
> The farmers markets were totally verboten as well.
> 
> ...


probably cake type donuts only work well because yeast doughnuts don't last long comparing to cake type since I can't make constantly to keep them fresh.


Fablesable said:


> It is only ok for LOW RISK foods. So certain baked goods are in that category. As Mimi has said above, DONUTS, cookies, muffins, cupcakes, etc are on that list however, certain additions are not on that list like when you add cheese or meat into the equation then it falls into the category of moderate risk foods and that must be made in a commercial kitchen. All is not lost however because you can rent a commercial kitchen by just asking around local restaurants that are only open in the evenings are great places to rent the kitchen from 6am-2pm. Lots of places if approached with this in mind will be happy to make a little extra money from you using their kitchen. There is always ways around anything if one thinks outside the box while staying FOOD SAFE.
> 
> I would suggest starting with the cookies or doughnut category first and go from there. I know 4 cookie companies here in Edmonton that are rocking and rolling JUST DOING COOKIES and all of them started at the farmers markets. They are actually still at the farmers markets yet some now
> 
> ...


awesome links! this definitely inspired me greatly

trying to decide either do cookies, doughnuts or cupcakes based on popularity and quality control while being at the farmer markets ... Is it possible to do shortbread cookie only and have different flavours or have to be different kind of cookies like chocolate chip, shortbread, snickerdoodle etc?

I e-mail a speciality leasing person at a mall nearby for their cart, kiosk and temporary leasing opportunities to see if that another avenue to do instead of the farmer market since the mall is year round and farmer markets aren't. I just hope the rent/cost is not crazy high lol


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

If you rent a kiosk then you will HAVE to do all your baking in a health inspected commercial kitchen. ONLY the farmers market is where you can sell your low risk food items from your home. I know this seems weird but it is the way it is. Hope that clarifies. Other than that GO FOR IT!!! I can't wait to hear about what you ahem decided. Don't be afraid to experiment with your cookies whatever base you are using whether that be shortbread with different additions or a regular chocolate chip based cookie base. Fill your boots and have fun while doing it.

I have found that cupcakes is past its prime. Doughnuts are a good thing still but be creative as heck with the flavours (see Moonshine Doughnuts link above in my last post). Cookies are good as well as long as you are thinking FLAVOUR!! If you are doing doughnuts or cookies think about using local ingredients as well as higher quality ingredients so you can advertise as such. Like a chocolate chip cookie with three different kinds of chocolates and maybe using a Valrhona dark chocolate and callebaut milk and white chocolate. Use local butter like Stirling and local flour like 1847 Stone Milling. you can charge quite a bit more by being focused on quality and flavour therefore creating a good following and profit margin.

Check out the indoor farmers markets in Toronto as they are still close to you with a wider audience to cater to.

https://www.evergreen.ca/farmers-market/vendor-signup

https://www.facebook.com/yorkumarket/

http://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2013/12/winter_farmers_markets_in_toronto/

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

Fablesable said:


> If you rent a kiosk then you will HAVE to do all your baking in a health inspected commercial kitchen. ONLY the farmers market is where you can sell your low risk food items from your home. I know this seems weird but it is the way it is. Hope that clarifies. Other than that GO FOR IT!!! I can't wait to hear about what you ahem decided. Don't be afraid to experiment with your cookies whatever base you are using whether that be shortbread with different additions or a regular chocolate chip based cookie base. Fill your boots and have fun while doing it.
> 
> I have found that cupcakes is past its prime. Doughnuts are a good thing still but be creative as heck with the flavours (see Moonshine Doughnuts link above in my last post). Cookies are good as well as long as you are thinking FLAVOUR!! If you are doing doughnuts or cookies think about using local ingredients as well as higher quality ingredients so you can advertise as such. Like a chocolate chip cookie with three different kinds of chocolates and maybe using a Valrhona dark chocolate and callebaut milk and white chocolate. Use local butter like Stirling and local flour like 1847 Stone Milling. you can charge quite a bit more by being focused on quality and flavour therefore creating a good following and profit margin.
> 
> ...


ahhh thats the difference... doing the kiosk will cut into my profit because of renting a commercial kitchen ... forget that lol

really? on "cupcakes is past its prime" .. I thought people like cake, even though it in a cupcake form, it still cake

I never made cake style doughnut and will definitely have to experiment different flavours for the donuts and cookies.... innovative flavours that are not typical "tim hortons" flavours lol

I have actually heard of stirling butter, a bit pricey comparing to like gay lea that we see in grocery stores. I checked out 1847 stone milling, I'm a bit shocked at the prices $15 for 2.5kg of all purpose and I can get robin hood 2.5kg for probably like $3

I'm going to try to find winter farmer market in oakville, burlington or mississauga... toronto is a bit far in a way especially when actually winter come


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Yea the cupcake thing has been overdone. kind of like the macaron thing as well. People always like the next thing made new and improved lol!!

I think we are definitely a "doughnut" nation so I am sure you could potentially hit gold with some good cake doughnut flavour combos. Timmy Ho's got nothing on your creativeness!!

I was only giving an example of how to do something different and highly marketable when I was talking Stirling butter and the 1847 Flour. It is a way for people to connect with their local farmers through you so to speak. There are, of course, other ways of marketing your amazing baked goods through your unique style, brand, presentation and flavour profiles. Many different things you can do!! I know you will figure out what is perfect for you and rock it!!

Just make sure to write a small business plan and financial spreadsheet so you know what you want and where you want to go. There are still going to be expenditures to get started at the farmers market for your kit setup that includes signs, displays, business cards or brochures, food safe gloves or tongs for handling samples, labels, etc. A few things to look at that help a small venture like this is your social media presence via Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and even Snapchat. A small low fee website you can make yourself quite easily through www.wix.com, no need to be a computer wiz as it is literally a point and click site with all instructions clearly laid out. A great name for your business. Labels and such from www.evermine.com. Banners, posters and signs from www.vistaprint.com. Remember to take lots of pictures not just of your finished stuff but of your journey as well so that people can connect with you via social media when you post them on Instagram and such. You will need lots of organizational skills and logistical savvy however if you do not have these straight off the bat it will come to you as you go so no worries. Ask your friends and family to help or volunteer as much as possible. Get liability insurance straight away before anything, don't even attempt any sort of baking for the public consumption until you have this as if ONE PERSON gets ill or complains you are liable and will potentially have to pay a fortune if they sue so get this first. It doesn't cost very much and it saves your bacon!

Ok I think I have mentioned most things but if I remember more i shall post it. You can do this and it is such fun to experiment when you don't have a ton of overhead to have to pay for if you owned your own shop. You might find it hard to find an indoor winter farmers market that is not in Toronto but I really hope you do. I think there might be one in Mississauga? I hear you about the winter driving lol. Here we have no choice but to get in a car to drive as the prairies is pretty spread out. It takes a minimum 25-30mins to get to most markets here and that is with no traffic on a clear day. In winter we have the -30-40*C weather and snow to have to deal with so I know your pain and hope there is a closer venue to you for over the winter /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

I wish you all the best and please keep letting us know how you are getting on /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

Fablesable said:


> Yea the cupcake thing has been overdone. kind of like the macaron thing as well. People always like the next thing made new and improved lol!!
> 
> I think we are definitely a "doughnut" nation so I am sure you could potentially hit gold with some good cake doughnut flavour combos. Timmy Ho's got nothing on your creativeness!!
> 
> ...


Yeah I guess cupcakes are dying... I think macarons died before it even got started lol

I will experiment both cake doughnut and shortbread cookies and see what work, pros and cons for each one and how accessible for each one in the long run because I can't cut them off once I have a storefront and my customers are expecting the same products they got from the farmers market.

times got traditional flavours, been around for a long time and they aren't going to change their flavours to be more modern. So I thought to think of interesting flavour combos to set apartment from the corporate donut cafe/shops like coconut lime. Yeah I got to think something unique or stand out for packaging.

I will definitely do a business/financial plan. I know social media is going to be a big part and I'm not big on social media because it such a big upkeep with them lol. I don't use social media much for my personal life, but it will provide exposure and awareness of the business.

for the name... I thought of using my name like pierre herme did and have a subtitle like shortbread co. or donut below it. If I do shortbread, I can do mini shortbread as well and call them shorties/shorty lol.. do like a multiple flavours in a seal bag... I don't know if that a corny name or not lol

I will check on the website, labels, signs and etc... especially the insurance policy

I got information from a mall about the cost to rent a cart/kiosk (10'x10') and it cost $525 daily or $1025 for Thursday - sunday which is crazy high. I have to add the cost of the rental kitchen on top of that... bye bye profit. Also someone mentioned a winter market in milton but their deadline for an application has already passed like a month ago, but their price is like $360 for the full season which is mid jan to march every saturday which is a better deal but too late. So I will probably just focus on the plan, experimenting products and be ready for next year farmers market in Oakville.

Thank you for the great tips...please! if you got any more ideas or thoughts... bring it


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

How about TOSH....

It is a play on your name (like the Kardashians named their clothing boutique DASH) so there is name recognition plus it is easy to remember and not many letters so your signage and business cards will be cheaper lol.

You will need still ID it (something like  TOSH...a bakery) so your peeps get the idea.

Have you created a signature product yet?

Something you love to make...is pretty in the case...and tastes great.

Look around on Pinterest for some ideas.

The actual recipes are not always great but there are a ton of unique ideas.

I am excited for you!

mimi

edit... check your PM's.

m.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

The holidays are almost here and that means a crapload of business!

The treats that are popular will mostly all fly under your cottage laws (pie fillings may be iffy).

So beat feet and get some orders!

Not so much to get rich .... just to see who likes what in your area.... make some friends... network.

This is the only time of year I even THINK about working anymore.

mimi


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

flipflopgirl said:


> How about TOSH....
> 
> It is a play on your name (like the Kardashians named their clothing boutique DASH) so there is name recognition plus it is easy to remember and not many letters so your signage and business cards will be cheaper lol.
> 
> ...


I will send you a pm of my real name ... don't want to say it here in case by freak accident my employer found out

weirdly enough .. my best sellable product is my red velvet cupcakes 

I'm good with shortbread cookies, I have a vanilla bean and chai tea flavours... I never experimented it further with other flavours for the shortbread. I never made cake donuts, so I will be learning a bit on that, experiment and see how well they are

i will check out pinterest for ideas .. thanks for the tip


flipflopgirl said:


> The holidays are almost here and that means a crapload of business!
> 
> The treats that are popular will mostly all fly under your cottage laws (pie fillings may be iffy).
> 
> ...


shortbread cookies are probably more suitable for the holidays


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

foodpump said:


> Any successful pastry shop or bakery will tell you that bread and butter come from wholesale accounts. The front cash register doesn't make money, or iif it does, it just barely covers costs.
> 
> So, in answer to your question, yes you can have a cashier. But who will supervise the cashier? If this person is your partner--either business or personal, or better yet, both business and personal partner, yes. It will work. If this person is someone you pay $14/hr and plead to work straight 8hr 5day weeks, no it won't work.
> 
> Hope this explains things,


Please regard this post as law. It comes from a long time business owner. As a long time bakery owner I absolutely agree. It usually takes one failure to truly understand a (wholesale start) or a constant source of income is the path to success. At least in my opinion.

I personally think the high failure rate of start-up food operations, is the inability to make ends meet by relying on register income alone. Followed by the lack of business knowledge, planning, etc.

The only way to approach constant daily costs is with a constant revenue source. When a business is dealing with constant costs by relying an inconsistent retail register income, a large percentage will usually not make it through the first year.

The two most important lessons I've learned over the last 32 yrs. of ownership is first, consistency. Second, I've found that most similar businesses usually have the same offerings. What separates the good businesses from the bad is customer service and attention to detail.

It's imperative to have in-depth ongoing training of customer service associates by experienced personnel. A constant conduit of communication. Really listen to and understand the needs of the customer. Timely responses. The immediate redirection to a person who has the experience and authority to answer needs and make decisions. Any type of negative feedback needs immediate escalation to ownership. Early on, we decided to reach out to quality similar venues to establish a referral network.This has been very successful for all involved and gives us the ability to have a "NEVER SAY NO" policy in place. Huge amount of positive feedback from customers and haven't witnessed a non return of that customer.

Just my thought. Planning a one person bakery operation w/ retail translates to a small negative to me. Unless you design and plan for growth, I feel that you will be capped financially as well as all aspects of your business. For me, this is not my ideal employment.

It reminds me of a franchise structure, 'Food trucks', 'Kiosks', etc. where one pays a large amount of money to buy a job. These units usually have a daily cap on income coupled with limited 'out of the box actions'.

If your one man operation caps out at 1,000. a day and generates 200. net., then I'm not so sure it's advantageous over spending no money and get employment for the same net without the additional energies required by ownership.

I love what I've been doing but there are a couple of negative things that come along with ownership. For me, one, is the accounting approach. I chose not to job this out just to eliminate the end of month/quarter surprise.

It's a chore for me to spend numerous unproductive, uncompensated hours performing the governments work. Collecting their taxes owed by employees and customers. Calculating, storing and supplying that info along with the money amounts. Oh, and gosh forbid, their calculation doesn't exactly correspond with yours: It appears the theme is 'guilty or prove innocent or correction'. More uncompensated hours to perform this.

OMGoodness, rant! sorry


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

Everyone has had great input on this. Rock solid advice if I've ever seen it. In my 20 years plus pastry career, I have never worked at a successful pastry shop that did not have most of its product go out as wholesale through the back door. Front end stuff has always been a small percentage of income and more like PR for your storefront.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@chefpeon ,

Absolutely agree. A successful bakery concept is not Retail with Wholesale, rather, Wholesale with Retail.

Spot on about PR. Our retail stays busy but could never carry us. Retail is our advertising and communications base.:>)


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

panini said:


> Please regard this post as law. It comes from a long time business owner. As a long time bakery owner I absolutely agree. It usually takes one failure to truly understand a (wholesale start) or a constant source of income is the path to success. At least in my opinion.
> 
> I personally think the high failure rate of start-up food operations, is the inability to make ends meet by relying on register income alone. Followed by the lack of business knowledge, planning, etc.
> 
> ...


I never thought of wholesale because I never dealt from my previous jobs dealing with wholesale. I definitely like the constant source of income to handle the constant daily costs : ) ... That was one of my concerns while working at a cupcake and kind of bakery place in the past. I was thinking of my own business at the time and I was nervous with the inconsistent income like at the beginning of the years and the summer was low doing 6 hours, slow, little work and dragging the time instead 8hrs normal quick full work. The owner doesn't have a wholesale aspect, just straight cashier income. The owner used to have two locations and recently l saw

I definitely have to change my thought process on the kind of business concept involving wholesale. what are typical wholesale accounts? like restaurants, hotels, bakeries with a retail aspect, gourmet food stores?

I'm thinking of doing the farmer market idea and will expand and grow to a space to handle public and wholesale accounts.

oh god, thats one of the things I don't like about owning a business is doing the government papers, employment, accounting crap lol... I just want to make stuff and sell it, no business managing lol ... But I can't make decent money working for someone and I have a bit of an authority problem when employers or higher management telling me what to do or say no to my ideas or direction haha. 


chefpeon said:


> Everyone has had great input on this. Rock solid advice if I've ever seen it. In my 20 years plus pastry career, I have never worked at a successful pastry shop that did not have most of its product go out as wholesale through the back door. Front end stuff has always been a small percentage of income and more like PR for your storefront.


Would a shortbread cookie only company work... using different flavours like chai tea, real vanilla bean, korintje cinnamon etc and do regular and mini sizes? make enough money from selling to public and wholesale accounts?


panini said:


> @chefpeon ,
> 
> Absolutely agree. A successful bakery concept is not Retail with Wholesale, rather, Wholesale with Retail.
> 
> Spot on about PR. Our retail stays busy but could never carry us. Retail is our advertising and communications base.:>)


is your retail space in a very busy plaza with high traffic or more off the beaten road with a space that is a fraction of the high price/sqft


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

What are typical wholesale accounts? Like restaurant, hotels, gourmet food shops?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Whatever/whoever pays what you ask for.  Supermarkets, schools, fundraisers, are also clients.  Restaurants/cafes are a lousy bet. if they have a freezer and a convection oven, sooner or later they'll go to frozen.  If not, they'll bake at home and bring it to work......


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

foodpump said:


> Whatever/whoever pays what you ask for. Supermarkets, schools, fundraisers, are also clients. Restaurants/cafes are a lousy bet. if they have a freezer and a convection oven, sooner or later they'll go to frozen. If not, they'll bake at home and bring it to work......


Good point on the sooner or later with restaurants/cafes.

So target clients who don't have a oven or capacity to make them like coffee company? Pair up doing like cookies and coffee/tea gift baskets or wine companies to pair wines with the cookies

I came across a shortbread cookie company called sprucewood shortbread company. They make both sweet and savoury, it all regular ingredients and they make 40k cookies a day!


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Quote:


foodpump said:


> Whatever/whoever pays what you ask for. Supermarkets, schools, fundraisers, are also clients. Restaurants/cafes are a lousy bet. if they have a freezer and a convection oven, sooner or later they'll go to frozen. If not, they'll bake at home and bring it to work......


FP is always handing out the best advice...sometimes I wonder if he is AI, living in a computer in a cave somewhere.

All things are possible with a good satellite connection ;-) right?

Altho labeling is a total PITA school fundraisers are the gift that keeps on giving so year after year after year...until someone comes along with a bigger brighter toy.

The fisherman bought 5 boxes of frozen cookie dough from the youngest Grand at $17 per unit so she could go to a snow cone party.

mimi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@toshibaaa , first of, you should pull back your shoulders, and keep your head high. Just having the trust of these people to give you any information shows they take your curiosity seriously. There are a thousand places for us to waste time. Wholesale is not the end all answer. It takes creativity and most importantly the ability to change, If you spend 3 years creating a concept for gourmet brownies, spend the money, finish-out and spend the time and have a wonderful grand opening but you run into an unforeseeable snag . 90% of your new customers are asking if you are going to serve lemon squares. You can't fight it, you are now in the lemon square business,

A large negative living out of the register is daily stales/shrink. I boldly visited surrounding catering companies and formulated a list of upscale operations that would be able to serve our case items.

I worked out a deal, where the catering chef sends by someone to pick up our boxed stales at the end of each day for cost plus, He or she runs them as chefs specials for the next days luncheons menu.Their customers love the variety . The biggest benefit for our operation is a standard daily production list. Same volume everyday. We bake fresh everyday. Until I though of this concept I never realized how nervous employees are when they think they might be walking in to a beehive. You reduce the margin for error if you are not dating and rotating stock. just some thoughts


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

I have a concern regarding to selling them to retail/wholesale customers.

What if they ask where the cookies are made from? Since they are made at home and not in commercial kitchen


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## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

toshibaaa said:


> I have a concern regarding to selling them to retail/wholesale customers.
> 
> What if they ask where the cookies are made from? Since they are made at home and not in commercial kitchen


It will likely depend on the regulations in your town (where your kitchen is located). Here in parts of the US, there is "cottage food laws" that outline what kinds of foods can be produced in a licensed residential kitchen. There are parameters that you have to maintain to get a licensed residential kitchen, and these would be listed/available on your town's Board of Health (or perhaps Agriculture) website or in the department's offices. Some retail outlets (meaning, you sell your goods to a store, a restaurant, cafe, coffee shop, etc) and they re-sell them to their customers. In that case, the retailer has to make sure you carry the appropriate insurance policy with liability coverage. The fact that you can get a permit to operate for specific foods in your town would enable you to get the proper insurance to cover yourself and your business against claims of, for example, food borne illness or damage caused by a delivery vehicle. When you get this insurance, talk to the company and make sure they cover all the angles!


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Like I have stated before......THE ONLY place you can sell your HOMEMADE cookies are at the farmers market......NO WHERE ELSE. This is why I gave you all the info about renting a commercial kitchen so that you can sell to wholesale clients and online if you chose. Please re-read what I have taken the time to type out for you so that you do not get in trouble legally or otherwise. Not trying to come across as harsh just giving you the real deal so you don't walk into a bad situation. In the States they have different laws and regulations for each state. Here in Canada, we have different laws for each province PLUS the federal laws (Food Safe) that must be adhered to.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@toshibaaa ,

I must have been lax in reading all the posts. I was confused. I thought this thread started with a shop, retail help, etc.

Working legally, whether it be Cottage law, etc. is one thing

. But for those who abuse the regulations or establish a business by flying under the radar an not legal, I have absolutely no use for.

They join my class labeled 'BOTTOM FEEDERS'.

I've run up against these people my whole career. Our industry, (one of the largest in the world) is light years behind others. This is one issue that

keeps us in the stone age. Heck, our industry is so bad, people are embarrassed to be a part of it. They hide the abuse behind the "PASSION" theme.

I don't know about y'all, but I don't know any successful people who don't have "PASSION"

I'm just going to hop over my soap box, but will say, I have less respect for someone who is in, or was in, the industry and decides to take the losers way out.

Diverting monies away from legal businesses by deception is right up there with stealing monies from a charity. sorry, just the way i feel.

Please disregard my previous posts, those were in good faith.


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## toshibaaa (Nov 8, 2012)

JCakes said:


> It will likely depend on the regulations in your town (where your kitchen is located). Here in parts of the US, there is "cottage food laws" that outline what kinds of foods can be produced in a licensed residential kitchen. There are parameters that you have to maintain to get a licensed residential kitchen, and these would be listed/available on your town's Board of Health (or perhaps Agriculture) website or in the department's offices. Some retail outlets (meaning, you sell your goods to a store, a restaurant, cafe, coffee shop, etc) and they re-sell them to their customers. In that case, the retailer has to make sure you carry the appropriate insurance policy with liability coverage. The fact that you can get a permit to operate for specific foods in your town would enable you to get the proper insurance to cover yourself and your business against claims of, for example, food borne illness or damage caused by a delivery vehicle. When you get this insurance, talk to the company and make sure they cover all the angles!


I'm going to my local town hall business centre probably next week and see what qualify in my town


Fablesable said:


> Like I have stated before......THE ONLY place you can sell your HOMEMADE cookies are at the farmers market......NO WHERE ELSE. This is why I gave you all the info about renting a commercial kitchen so that you can sell to wholesale clients and online if you chose. Please re-read what I have taken the time to type out for you so that you do not get in trouble legally or otherwise. Not trying to come across as harsh just giving you the real deal so you don't walk into a bad situation. In the States they have different laws and regulations for each state. Here in Canada, we have different laws for each province PLUS the federal laws (Food Safe) that must be adhered to.


I made a vague statement, my apologies ... I meant to say specifically if I do the farmers market and someone who is a retailer or have a business came across my products there and liked them and want to sell my products

I have to say no, right? because of legal issue since my cookies are made from home

you pretty much answer my question anyway ... thanks


panini said:


> @toshibaaa ,
> 
> I must have been lax in reading all the posts. I was confused. I thought this thread started with a shop, retail help, etc.
> 
> ...


huh?....

I never said I'm not going to do a shop

I'm just seeing what avenues out there that are possible for me to do. I'm against abusing the regulations personally

I don't have a lot of money and I don't think it enough right now to open a shop. I can't do a full blown pastry shop with a lot of equipments and construction which is a very high start up cost. I thought shortbread cookies would be a cost effective business because I don't need a lot of equipments, small space to do it and I can do different income streams from walk ins, retail/wholesale and online when I have my own storefront.

When someone mentioned the farmers market idea to build a customer base and build up some funds for the storefront. It an intriguing idea but I want to make sure it allow from my town hall business centre first.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Dhardy123 said:


> Wow as another Southern Ontarian with similar dreams, I was never aware you could sell at farmers markets using your home kitchen. Is there a list of these low risk foods for which you are allowed to sell?


First ... welcome to Chef Talk.

Second...@Fablesable (at great expense of time and energy) put together a comprehensive list of links for all the FAQ's anyone would every want to know re "cottage" business up there)

Suggest you start with those and if you still have questions use google Canada for the rest.

(not sure if there really is a specific google for all you peeps living north of the US border but I do get quite a bit of info when I start with those 2 search words ;-)

CT is a community with decades of knowledge (both professional as well as lay) given freely to anyone with a question.

Founded some 16? years ago and still going strong (and FREE!) because of this free sharing attitude.

However sometimes (esp if it is a popular question) you will need to use a search feature...either here or out on the free web.

Just the way it works.

I see you are a new member and welcome you with open arms and want you to feel part of the family so don't take my words as snarky or mean.

They are not meant to be that way and I am not a huge user of emoji's (just an old fart) so sometimes things come out that way.

Have one on me....

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lever.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif

mimi


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

kuan said:


> Donut shop would be around 5am though.  It's a bit simpler.


Been there and done that.......Worked in the basement of a huge skyscraper in downtown Chicago. Started at 2:00 and worked until 11:00.

Here I am standing over a fryer filled with very hot grease plopping cake doughnuts from a hand cranked machine. I have 2 very long chopsticks with which to turn them.

I literally am falling asleep while standing there. The job didn't last long....


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

This was an interesting read. It's been a year. Any updates on this business?


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