# Those annoying culinary school graduates



## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

I am just wondering if anyone else shares my feelings on this. 

I work in a restaurant kitchen where there are four major cooks. Our chef, the day cook guy, and the saute and grill guys at night. Our chef never went to culinary school, but educated himself through catering and just reading and tasting. Our day guy never went to culinary school, but I find his creativity and consistency to be very excellent. The saute guy has worked in restaurants since he was 16, and learned that way. He reads a lot, but tries a lot out. Also never went to culinary school.

Which brings me to the grill guy. Four years at J+W. Two years of experience cooking in restaurants. Yet it took him 36 eggs to admit he didn't know how to poach them (what a waste!) and food is constantly being sent back because it is cooked wrong. A well done sirloin, black on the outside and bloody in the inside. A piece of pork loin, still raw inside. Etc, etc, etc.

He insists that because of his training, he knows what he is doing. It is obvious that he doesn't.

I don't really have a question, I guess, i just need to express my frustration. It seems that the people who have come into the restaurant business slowly, and learned by asking questions humbly assuming they DIDN'T know the answers are much more thorough and are more willing to admit their mistakes. Is he a typical culinary school grad? If he is, I refuse to go, and will continue my education through work experience.

I have met chefs who have been in restaurants over 20 years who still ask questions and are very willing to admit there is more to learn. Why then, does a culinary school graduate assume he has nothing more to learn?

~~Shimmer~~


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## coolj (Dec 12, 2000)

It's sad that some people who attend culinary school wind up being cocky and thinking that they know all there is to know. I myself have taken a one year culinary course and a three year apprentinceship, and I know that I'll never learn everything that there is to know about cooking or food alone for that matter, because trends are constantly changing.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

One wonders what they actually learn in culinary school. I've experienced this quite a few times. As a plain cook, I've had to work with "know it all" culinary grads. It was not fun at all. Despite how much I thought I knew, I managed to hire a few of these as well. I don't know if there is a solution to this. They normally get handed a dose of reality when they're given their walking papers.

Kuan


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## dlee (Sep 22, 2000)

I have come across many / a lot of culinary grads. that will take 45 mins. to chop 2 bch of parsley. 2 hrs to make 5 pass trays. only able to cook one thing at a time. BUT, I have also come across a few interns that will give an effort to try to keep up with me. 

I think that it is all in the attitude of the individual. I am more than willing to give it my all, when a new person comes up and ask a lot of questions and make a good effort. These are the type of people who will make it. I always give the same speech to all the new people... work hard, ask any question, try other/new ways.... 

I also will ask questions, Where are you from, then try to make them give me a recipe from their region or try to learn something new from them.

Shimmer, if you go to school and get that piece of paper. Will you think you know everything or will you constantly ask questions also. 

For me I always try to learn something everyday. 

J&W Grad, 
D.Lee


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I feel exactly the same way as D.lee.

I am so blessed that the chefs early in my career took me under there wings.

J&W Grad 1980
cc


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## bakingpw (Jun 30, 2001)

Shimmer, I'm presently near the end of my culinary training in the best school there is and I'd like to give my 2 cents on your view. In no way is a culinary school education complete in and of itself. There is only so much "theory" and even practice that can be experienced/learned in a 2-4 yr. program. Most of the time, a particular subject is taught and one might actually produce that product one time - if that! What we students do know is theory - what we NEED is practice!!!!!!! I can not imagine myself or anyone from my school graduating with an "I know it all" attitude based on our experiences at school - yet, I know they do. How sad :-( There is so much more to be learned, expereinced and practiced. Sadly, people like yourself will assume we are all the same and not give those of us who want to learn a chance.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

The one thing they really can't teach in the classroom, and the thing that is key to the working professional doing the hiring, is how to be productive in a commercial situation. I hired someone in another class to make muffins and quick breads and she was a straight A student, but every morning it was a race to get her muffin stuff out of the way before the avalanche of bread coming at us. It was a relief when she quit. I think the first couple of Saturday nights on the line goes a long way to curing some people of the know-it-all attitude. Right now we have a J&W student and a CIA student in the kitchen and they are both good workers.


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## lotuscakestudio (Jun 28, 2001)

Shimmer, I totally know what you're talking about. I'm a culinary school graduate and even I can't stand some of us. I worked in pastry for 18 months before I went to school and I know that is what helped me not fall into the know-it-all trap. 

It's very true: the more humble you are, the more you'll learn. It also prevents you from looking like a complete *** when you do something wrong.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I think part of it is the industry the schools pump these kids up I have talked to a lot of the schools and they will basically tell and promise you anything to get your money. Another is the old boy network Chefs who only hire from CIA or JW cause they went there a lot of self taught Chefs are treated like total hacks its pretty amazing for an industry that begs for good help. I have been to jobs where I wouldnt even be considered because of my lack of a degree even though I have 13 years I have been Chef and Sous and have done just about everything and put out some really nice food it is really disheartining to see 22 year old kids as Execs. or Sous straight outta school. Nobody but nobody is a Chef at 22 I don"t care what school you went to. As long as the biz is filled with gullible owners who after a bank loan think they are restauranteurs who are impreesed by the hype of a piece of paper on their wat to bankruptcy. To me the bottom line is you either have the talent or you don"t period if you don"t have it you can spend 10 years at CIA and and still be a hack.


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

my two cents

right now i am a student at the cia and i am on my intership at the hotel dupont in delaware. (just a little background info)

to me, school is very important. it teaches you the importance of mise en place, the importance about safety in the kitchen, a good knowledge of theory, and teaches you the basics of cooling: braising, sauting, grilling, ect. 

they seem to only touch on the basics but at least you have a foundation of the cooking basics. 

i dont not think you know evetything after you get out of school.... not even close. BUT you will have some knowledge of the basics. 

the area where most new grads go wrong is coming out of school thinking they know it all. you SHOULD be coming out of school with the intentions of working hard, honing in on your basic techniques, and the will to learn and the ability to ask questions. 

so, is school worth it? i think so. you get a interduction onto the kitchen, you learn theory, and you get a basic foundation of the cooking techniques. 

the draw back is that it is really not reality. 

a little story: before i left for the cia, i was working two jobs and going to another local culinary school. one of the jobs was at a nice up scale restaraunt the the other job was working at a college cafateria. i learned a lot. i leared on of the most important things of all: HOW TO MULTI TASK. then i decided to go to NY and go to the cia. i leanred a lot but i lost the knowledge on how to multi task. trust me, 18 people taking two hours to pick and chop parsely was alomost an everyday thing. then when i left to go on my internship, it took me a good week to get back the knowledge on how to multi task. i used to just want to cook one thing at a time. now, i cook tons of food at the same time. i know what takes the longest and what i can do while i am cooking, ect. 

so, i ask again... is school worth it? my answer remains yes. but i think that the knowledge you can get in the field is far superior. 

staying humble for a new grad is very hard. 

so there is my two cents


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Welcome to cheftalk bakingpw,

You expressed yourself very well for your first post.I think you will really enjoy cheftalk,it is a great forum to share ideas and help one another. I have trained many culinary students in my time and like said before me,everyone is different,everyone also has different levels of aptatude to learn.I hired a lead pm cook about 5 months ago to assist my pm sous with day to day operations,This individual just graduated from a local collage with a degree in hotel/motel managment,a degree in restaurant managment and a certificate in culinary arts.You would think this individual might consider himself fully trained and compitent to over see an operation...But this is one of the most opened minded, eager and energetic cooks I have had the pleasure to train.Yes he wants to move up in his career but he also understands what it takes to move up the ladder.I have worked with graduates from the CIA who at first had a little chip on there shoulder,but after working 70 hours a week for a couple months and reliezing that it's not all about how cool you look in a chefs uniform,but rather how important it is to pull your weight and learn how to be a team player.Some got it and some did not.One manages a bagel shop and another moved on the assist mark potvain in opening le cirque in las vageses bellagio hotel.To shimmers post about going through the school of hard knocks,I respect how cooks and chefs feel when a student comes in there kitchen and thinks there poop doesn't stink.That would turn me off to wanting to help this person,but also there are students that truely have talents to offer but do not have the practical expereience needed to excel,I'm a good judge of charector and I will always try my best to support a intern or graduate, If they give me 100% I will give it in return,if they don't well it's there lose.For every student with a chip on there shoulder there is a dozen who will do there best for you.
cc


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

When I attended J&W (Charleston '95), the chef-instructors there were very adamant about telling the students that they would not know it all nor would they be chefs when they graduated. They would say that all they were doing was giving us the tools to become a chef; the rest was up to time and our own efforts. Unfortunately, while all the students listen to this, not all of them hear it and internalize it. These are the students and grads Shimmer is speaking of. Also unfortunately, there's nothing to be done about this type of culinary grad. I'm just glad you have a place like this to vent, Shimmer; believe me, I feel your pain!


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

In my years in the kitchen I have had both the pleasure and disgust to work w/ many grads from both J & W and CIA. It all boils done to the student themselves. The last bad apple so to speak that I had I sent to the dishroom to work w/ my head steward. After working w/ him for awhile she saw just how much she didn't know. She has become a real asset to our organization.
J & W class of 83'


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## friedparsley (Apr 17, 2001)

I feel that some people are jerks whether they graduated from culinary school or not. I got the impression from your post that this is just a scared kid. Anyone with only six years of experience in the kitchen thinks they know a whole lot more than they do. When I graduated from culinary school I thought I knew a lot more than I did. It took a couple of really humbling experiences to put me in my place. I feel that everyone kind of goes through that, culinary grad or not. 
However, I've got to admit it wasn't all my fault. I've experienced a lot of resentment and hostility from co-workers who did not go to culinary school. Often times I felt like they expected me to know everything because I went to school, and then took great pleasure in ridiculing me when I didn't.
You know what? I just tried to work harder than those people every day.
If you are torn between going to school or not, you should go. Obviously, you won't learn everything, but what you do learn will be the right way to do it. If you go in there and try to learn as much as you can, then you are going get something out of it.
Lastly, what were you doing while he was wasting 36 eggs? Do you know what he was doing wrong? If so, then why didn't you help him? Where's the teamwork? I hope you weren't just looking on with disgust at how little the culinary grad knew.


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## layjo (Oct 12, 1999)

That is a good point to analyze! Some graduates have the feeling that they know alot to set the tone of things, and then again there also other
people around analyzing their every move and expecting that they should "know it all" because they graduated from a culinary school. And this causes some negative attacks (knowledge and ability wise) sometimes towrds each other! I remember once when training a lead cook at a certain station. We went over the duties that were required for the station as we worked. Then when cleaning time came, I told him to clean the flatop griddle. I assumed he knew how to do it since he was in a leadcook's position, but he said in the kitchens he had worked in they never were required to clean the equipment. So I said "ok after tonight you will know how to clean one." "Because we are on the same team, we are here to help each other and work together as a team!" From then on we built a good, effective working relationship.
 Everything was cool!


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## chadwic (Jun 14, 2001)

LoL... i find this very funny. I just recently graduated from a small culinary school in NH. What did i learn?? a couple of things. A culinary school is a culinary school. It doesnt matter if you pay 5,000 a year or 20,000 a year at the end you get the same thing, a piece of paper and a rude awakining!  I amone of those people who think Ya CIA great name great rep but now it is all the same, take people in spit people out. Same with the school i went to, the person who graduated on the top of the class couldnt make a buer blanc if her life depended on it.....i also have to ask the chef that are complaining about culinary grads why dont the take them in the kitchen for a dinner service and see what the can do before you hire them?? while i was in california the restaurant i worked at did it i know the laundry does it and many other restaurants in San fran..and if you say well i need people to staff my kitchen and it is hard to find help. Stop complaining, be happy that you have that body to pick herbs, set up the line, or peel garlic. I am not trying to sound like an A*% i know i have a lot to learn before i am even going to consider myself good; i have see some of the people that come out of the school! i wonder myself, i just ask you to be open minded and not judge all culinary grads due to a couple or a lot of bad apples. not everyone can be Thomas Kellers, Gordon Ramsays or Eric riperts and learn under great chefs. thats my 2 cents


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## chadwic (Jun 14, 2001)

Oh i forgot one more thing. Holydriver do you know Galen Zamarra, bouley baker?? i belive he is no older than 25 26. and he is in my book a chef! check out his menu menu


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

Wow, so that's how you get so many culinary school grads to come out of the woodwork. Nice to hear from you all.

Friedparsley- Actually, no, I don't know how to poach eggs. But he kept insisting he knew how, and was actually 'teaching' me how to do it. I am at the bottom of the scale, being called "Salad Girl" more frequently than anything else. My whole attitude has been to "Question, question, question," not even caring if I sound stupid or uninformed. Sometimes they laugh, but I learn.

I'm truly glad to know that not every culinary school grad thinks they know all. I'm glad also that some of you thought you did but learned otherwise. 

Here's to the day when working in a restaurant becomes about teamwork instead of competition, workmanship instead of 'oneupmanship.' 

In the meantime, you might hear me venting again. 

 

~~Shimmer~~


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## unichef (Aug 14, 2000)

I graduated from the Hobart Cooking School. Mommy and Daddy didn't pay for my toque. 

It's all in the attitude. I remember sitting up until the sun came up reading Escoffier and James Beard and I couldn't wait to go to work the next day.

There are a lot of great school graduates out there. I think if you walk into any kitchen you cannot just pick out the grads from the rest., but what you will see is who has a passion for what they do and who doesn't- that's apparent.


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

within a cook/chef/whatever, certain things stand out. 

Potential - regardless of education or lack thereof, anyone with potential has the ability to rise to a certain level if notmore

Humility - doesnt matter if you have been paid the most to be taught by the best, because eventually, you will come up against someone who knows something that you dont, and one should have the grace to accept such a circumstance.

Realism - im **** proud of my school (ryde tafe) and ever thankful for the level of professional teaching and passing on of skills from chefs IMHO are amongst the best that i have seen. However sometimes in the working world, practicality drives the car and adaptability yells the obscenities.

Dedication - need i say more.

My point is that everyone has these attributes in differing mixes and that you will find both brilliance and crappiness in virtually all workers.

You just need to enhance the strengths and strategically stifle the weaknesses as best you can.


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Hey,

Lot of good comments here, haven't read all of them, but I will drop a few words from my experiences.

First I think all of us can agree that school is a good way to get a quick start in the business but it only provides a base or a foundation if you will. From there it is up to you to build on it. Also it has been my experience that just going to school doesn't cut it. I have found this to be true both in the culinary field and the computer field. What I mean by that is if you just go to class, just do your work, just take your test, you will *JUST GET A DEGREE*. If... you go to class, go to school, study for your exams, compete in competitions, do extra work, work part time for someone, then you will have a far more richer experience.

A couple of suggestions for culinary students. Work anywhere you can while you are in school and get all the experience you can. Volunteer to help chefs with competitions, work for free at a top restaurant in the city, go on field trips, do anything that will take your experience beyond what you paid for.

My other bit of advice... Don't tell anyone you went to culinary school for awhile ...


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## mesquite27 (Jul 18, 2001)

hey there, Years ago I was in the same boat, working for a chef( graduated 2 yrs. prior) who didn't know a thing but could not admit it. He was soon fired for not being able to hold his job as chef and now is working on Wall St. It jhust goes to show, you get out what you put in. No school is better than the other, it's how hard you want it and how hard you work that scores.


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## mesquite27 (Jul 18, 2001)

hey there, Years ago I was in the same boat, working for a chef( graduated 2 yrs. prior) who didn't know a thing but could not admit it. He was soon fired for not being able to hold his job as chef and now is working on Wall St. It jhust goes to show, you get out what you put in. No school is better than the other, it's how hard you want it and how hard you work that scores.


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## mesquite27 (Jul 18, 2001)

hey there, Years ago I was in the same boat, working for a chef( graduated 2 yrs. prior) who didn't know a thing but could not admit it. He was soon fired for not being able to hold his job as chef and now is working on Wall St. It jhust goes to show, you get out what you put in. No school is better than the other, it's how hard you want it and how hard you work that scores.


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## youla (Jun 4, 1999)

HEY shimmer/ you'll shake that salad girl tag... years ago I moved to a hotel as a saucier...they only liked females in garde manger...and I had the salad tag for a while till it totally [email protected]@$ed me off, I spoke to the chef who said he hired me for garde manger and I said I had not even applied for that position...but in the end I made it the best garde manger section youd seen...I did vegetable carvings,terrines,big displays...and made it work for me then a new chef started and I said I MISS SAUCE!! NOT A PROBLEM ...I HAD TWO weeks on sauce, two weeks on garde manger...which I had come to love...the thing I tell apprentices who do garde manger is to make the most of it, dont 
see it as the black hole, make a mark on it so people will remember your work...and practise at home!!! read lots and practise at home lots...if your short of cash get allyour friends to chip in you make whatever you are 
trying out...then come to work and impress,impress!!people see garde manger as a lost opportunity but look at it closely,,,you learn...garnishing, presentation, cooking skills, flavour skills, cutting and chopping techniques, bizarre salads...well!?..how to make terrines,pates,mousses,canapes...and once you know how to make them learn how to make them better and a bit more exotic! and allthese asian salads in vogue, garde manger is much more than potato salad and cold cuts...at least I HOPE SO!...SORRY i AM RAMBLING ITS A SUBJECT i love...


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## youla (Jun 4, 1999)

I dont believe anyone knows much coming out of school..be it culinary [I dont know if you have an equivalent to our apprentice cookery school system a 4 year term] but we have just received one of your culinary graduates,....few brief words to describe him...no urgency...no mise en place..no prep...no back up...goes for a smoko assuring me everything is fine...wrong...gets pissed off cos I show him how to do things...I say LISTEN you may be from the states...been cooking for a little while...but what youre serving up is not acceptable so I am going to show you what it should look like....and he gives me some smart [email protected]@ed answer...has such a 
relaxed time about the kitchen while every one else is sweating for him..he gets pissed off when he gets an order...what the **** is he there for?


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## youla (Jun 4, 1999)

HEY shimmer/ you'll shake that salad girl tag... years ago I moved to a hotel as a saucier...they only liked females in garde manger...and I had the salad tag for a while till it totally [email protected]@$ed me off, I spoke to the chef who said he hired me for garde manger and I said I had not even applied for that position...but in the end I made it the best garde manger section youd seen...I did vegetable carvings,terrines,big displays...and made it work for me then a new chef started and I said I MISS SAUCE!! NOT A PROBLEM ...I HAD TWO weeks on sauce, two weeks on garde manger...which I had come to love...the thing I tell apprentices who do garde manger is to make the most of it, dont 
see it as the black hole, make a mark on it so people will remember your work...and practise at home!!! read lots and practise at home lots...if your short of cash get allyour friends to chip in you make whatever you are 
trying out...then come to work and impress,impress!!people see garde manger as a lost opportunity but look at it closely,,,you learn...garnishing, presentation, cooking skills, flavour skills, cutting and chopping techniques, bizarre salads...well!?..how to make terrines,pates,mousses,canapes...and once you know how to make them learn how to make them better and a bit more exotic! and allthese asian salads in vogue, garde manger is much more than potato salad and cold cuts...at least I HOPE SO!...SORRY i AM RAMBLING ITS A SUBJECT i love...


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## youla (Jun 4, 1999)

HEY shimmer/ you'll shake that salad girl tag... years ago I moved to a hotel as a saucier...they only liked females in garde manger...and I had the salad tag for a while till it totally [email protected]@$ed me off, I spoke to the chef who said he hired me for garde manger and I said I had not even applied for that position...but in the end I made it the best garde manger section youd seen...I did vegetable carvings,terrines,big displays...and made it work for me then a new chef started and I said I MISS SAUCE!! NOT A PROBLEM ...I HAD TWO weeks on sauce, two weeks on garde manger...which I had come to love...the thing I tell apprentices who do garde manger is to make the most of it, dont 
see it as the black hole, make a mark on it so people will remember your work...and practise at home!!! read lots and practise at home lots...if your short of cash get allyour friends to chip in you make whatever you are 
trying out...then come to work and impress,impress!!people see garde manger as a lost opportunity but look at it closely,,,you learn...garnishing, presentation, cooking skills, flavour skills, cutting and chopping techniques, bizarre salads...well!?..how to make terrines,pates,mousses,canapes...and once you know how to make them learn how to make them better and a bit more exotic! and allthese asian salads in vogue, garde manger is much more than potato salad and cold cuts...at least I HOPE SO!...SORRY i AM RAMBLING ITS A SUBJECT i love...


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Garde Manger is a skill forgotten don't you think? After all, how many establishments take cold food seriously? "Salad girl" blah we should stop saying that.

Kuan


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Ditto those thoughts Youla and Kuan. I'm a pastry chef and all the guys from the hot side would be envious of what I could do with pastries artisticly. They really didn't get it at all! I did my best to encourage their interests in garde but no one would even look at it seriously. It's every bit as interesting as pastry if you take it seriously and open a book! 

I think most head chefs blow over it because they don't have the skills themselfs to teach it or lead the area. Once upon a time every head chef knew ice carving, now no one knows how to....


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Sorry I just went back and re-read this thread from the begining. I suppose I'm just beating a dead dog into the ground but unless your a women in this field you might not notice this. I'm sure your not interested in my mentioning this but I think it's important and I'm not going to let it slip...

"being called "salad girl" more frequently then anything else....sometimes they laugh, but I learn"

"hey shimmer/ you'll shake that salad girl tag"

"they only like girls in garde manger"

"Here's to the day when working in a restaurant becomes about teamwork instead of competition, workmenship instead of 'oneupmanship'"

You forgot to ad "Here's to the day when working in a restaurant becomes about teamwork instead of competition, workmenship instead of 'oneupmanship',*skill instead of *** *"...I didn't use the word "gender".


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

It's true about ice carvings,I used to do them for our Sunday brunches years ago,and for special functions.I do feel however that except for large hotels and some catering halls,ice carving has become passe.I feel the use of natural..unmanipulated center peices are more invain these days.This translates right down to plate garnishing and butlered Hdo platters,I am in favor of fresh flowers or herbs,not carved vegetables for garnish.I also feel the level of skill requiered by garde manger in our time is very important.The art goes much deeper then chilled tenderlion with horseradish sauce or simple salads.Pates,terrines and charcrutier are being done less and less in the states.
instead I am seeing and supporting less processed foods,Sliced lacured breast of squab,Chilled venison medallions with red,black and black eyed pea chili served with a tomotilla-tomato salsa,Chilled seabass with artichokes hearts filled with oven roast tomato relish,pheasant legs stuffed with wild rice and dried fruits and the like.

It is a trained person to be able to produce such cold items,

as for pastry arts, I think the reason many line people do not participate in the pastry kitchen is because they are intimidated,The world of pastry arts is one grounded in true study and patience.There are more factors to consider when preparing pastrys then need to be considered by the savoury side.I feel lucky that I grew up in my Grandfathers bakery so I have a desent foundation in the pastry world,But I'm always learning.
I would feel somewhat stupid if I was trying to work with my pastry chef on any aspect of his developement if I was clueless to the detailed training and expertise thet goes into pastry arts.
cc


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

That's the problem....it isn't passe at all! It just hasen't been brought into the modern world. I really can't look at a swan carved out of ice anymore but I've seen some beautiful clean lined scultures/trays that blow away everything else. I also laugh at tomato roses (which I still see) but the medium is wide open. It's a lost art that should be dismissed. 

Country Clubs are still doing terrines, grand buffets all the old stuff, too. There's alot yet to be done to update garne...perhaps all the young ladies entering the kitchens who get pigeon holed doing salads will wake up this art...get the boys over to the salads and then move on to the line, ha!

P.S. Herbs....defineately boring! Over used, over kill, over done! It's like putting a pink carnation on your tray for garnish.


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## pastry--chef (Aug 13, 2001)

Hey Youla 
Just letting you know I agree 100% with you on what you said about being in a position and making the most of it and pushing yourself to make the best of any situation you are in. This is one of the things that comes with the experience of actually working in the kitchen rather than only being taught at school, I remember when I first started my apprentiship in a bakery scraping the trays as fast as possible so that someone would show me something different so i could learn more. Perhaps it shouldnt be, have you been to school or learnt on the job, but more like what was the attitude that you had when you approached the situation you are in.Ps the combined work and school combination of the Australian apprentiship I think is the best way to train some one up (I found very few egotistical (sp) apprentices, but they all seemed to have a broad knowledge both practical and theory) but im biased after working there for 2 years.
cheers Pastry Chef.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

W.Debord,

I understand what you are saying...But the use of herbs on plates is not like "placing a pink carnation" for your garnish.

A well presented plate need only to display it's components.color,texture,aroma and taste will do the rest.
cc


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## youla (Jun 4, 1999)

hey Cape Chef now they are the kind of garde manger items I am talking about...they sound great...you can really let you imagination go wild,,,another thing I do is go to all the garde competitions...just to see whats happening...lot of old stuff...but some pretty good stuff to get ideas from....and by vegetable carvings...I dont mean your mundane tomato and carrot roses...I used to make whole scenes..and for a big buffet allthe other garnishes would follow from this scene..thanks for your words pastry chef as well.I just wish I could make the young kids here see it and see what they can get out of it...makes me feel so frustrated to see them missing out but I guess it is their choice to discover what is out there and what is actually under their own noses.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Even country clubs these days are demanding profitablity from their food departments. They definitely don't want some dork back there carving vegetables and making hacking up a piece of ice when there's an oven to be cleaned  Most people don't understand what a Garde Manger does and definitely do not want to spend the $$$ on a good Chef. What they see when they spot someone whittling away at a daikon is their $$$ flying out the window. The attitude is "You don't get paid to do that."

Has anyone here ever had FOH people walk up to your tray of canapes and just pop one or two in their mouth, or put a dirty finger on your spotless tray? Anyone who has spent all day making canapes knows what I'm talking about. THAT really used to piss me off. You spend all day hollowing out the tomatoes, cutting the bread, making the "glues" and fillings, the mousses, picking the herbs, cleaning the shrimp, polishing the mirrors and trays, making the swan necks, etc. and people have no appreciation for that. Same goes for pastry kitchen. They think tourne potatoes come out of a can and icing comes out of a bucket.

Heh I'm glad I don't do that anymore 

Kuan


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Schooling,the culinary education is nothing more than any other type of education. You will still need hands on experience, attorney,teachers,court reporters,doctors, I jest about the doctors and attorneys because our field, still is not recognized as a respected profession.
The dissapearence of Garde Manger and such positions is the fault of ourselves. We have stopped educating our guests based on the $$. Most of the younger diner's don't even know there food is not really presented as well as it can be. I'm not a classical garnisher per say, I feel all garnishing should be a part of the food and truly enjoyable to eat, but I rarely see anything anymore.
Don't be hard on those Culinary Graduates, for some reason some employers have fallen into the hype rap of the schools and they think schools are really graduating chefs.
just my 2 cents
Jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Since I'm between jobs and occasionally look thru the help-wanted ads it really supprised me how many ads are currently specifing "culinary school graduate" and a specific number of min. years in business required. I don't recall seeing any requirements published in the past in news paper ads, (which aren't where the real jobs are), how long has this been going on?

Whats' with the cable t.v. comercial for the French Culinary Institute? At the end, some guy says he has soooo many restaurants he'll hire all you culinary grads???? I guess I should know who he is (but I don't). It's kind of funny seeing a school sell it's self like that.


I agree with old and wise "garnishing should be apart of the food and truely enjoyable to eat", if it's a tray on a buffet then a bunch of herbs are fine. But every idiot who thinks his 4 oz. of herbs per plate passes as a garnish grosses me out (certainly you've seen what I mean?). 9 times out of 10 it's over-kill. 

I kind of think garde lost it's American following when we turned away from aspic/gelatin in the 70's and garde didn't change fast enough. Speed and $ is definately an issue, but you can't gain speed turning a veg. unless you practice. 


Funny Kuan... the pastry kitchen thinks some similar thoughts about the hot side not appreciating their efforts, ha, oh well. Actually I rather like it when the waitstaff is hovering around to taste. It doesn't upset me in the least (they know they can't sample until it headed to the garbage), it means that I'm not serving the same old **** that their sick of. My old chef used to have big fights with the waitstaff when they showed any interest in eating left-overs. Personally I thought that was a HUGE mistake! They are either on your team or off your team and a restaurant needs both working together. We'd get young interested waitstaff and they wouldn't have a clue what many items where. A simple taste sampling to the waitstaff is so incredibly important....


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

LOL W! Hey *I* appreciate the pastry kitchen's efforts even though I'm just a cook! Hey whaddayaknow, I'm one of the few who can add and subtract  Seriously though, it IS important for the waitstaff to know what they're selling. I love it when they show a passion for food. But you know, there ARE some of them who don't really care and casually pick at those petit fours like they just came out of a box.

How did this topic change anyway?? 

Kuan


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## pastry--chef (Aug 13, 2001)

Perhaps we should change the topic to those annoying front of house staff (hang on thats been done to death). I actually get on really well with my front of house staff i've learnt that slipping them a couple of petiti fours does wonders when i need a good strong coffee or if friends come for dinner at the restaurant. A little bribery and corruption go a long way... Cheers Pastry Chef (Mike).


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

Well, the subject hasn't really changed. It started off being a vent about arrogant newbies coming into the kitchen believing that they know everything there is to know when they really don't know anything. When we started talking about waiters and others who know about just as little as the newbie who walked in. At the heart of this thread seems to be our resentment of people who don't appreciate all of our hard work in producing the delicacies that we do and our achievements in getting where we are. They also don't realize or appreciate the risky emotional investment we have made in excercising our passions. And their resistance to perform hard work seems to blind them to the face of opportunity. They will never become enlightened despite the time they spend in the kitchen if they don't care about what the serious folks in the kitchen do.

Now where do they get this attitude? I think its rather like the graduates of elite military institutions. Military grads immediately enter the armed forces as officers where as the folks who come straight from high school have to work their way up to that rank. I wonder what the friction is like between these two groups. The Culinary school grad might have the same pompous attitude when he enters his first kitchen, thinking he learned in school what the next guy who worked his way up from dishwasher gained by actual work. And worse, thinking that he can do as well or better than we can. Well, I say if they think they need not to learn anymore, then I need not offer them the opportunity. They can just prep the ingredients for me and clean up afterwards since they know what happens in between. When they realize that they are not learning anything, then we'll reconsider their role in the kitchen.

Hey Pastry Chef Mike, that's how I get the dishwashers to bring my stuff back to the pastry department as soon as they wash them for me. I still do most of the washing for the pastry dept. but the dish guys really deserve the desserts more. The waiters get tastes if and only of they come to the back and ask questions about the desserts including their garnishes. I always reward hard work and interest.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: monpetitchoux ]


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I think it all comes down to the pople who own the restaurants they swallowed all the hype hook line and sinker. I see not only ads for cul school grad only but only CIA or J$W how ridiculous so if you have cooked for 15 or 20 years without a degree you are treated like a shoemaker and some 22 year old kid gets hired I just do not understand.


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

you know, i have worked my way up from dishwashing. As well as that, i have done an apprenticeship as well, the 4yrs working with the accompanying studies (the australian system).

Also on top of that i have done another 2.5 years study on top of that (being optional) with another 18 months management diploma and 2 years for a BBA.

Im not even close to finishing my studies. I havent even got a degree or a diploma. Just 2 certificates in cookery. Still learning.

However, i base my worth on what i know now and what i can do. In some aspects, this can make me somewhat inflexible, but by the same token, it both works for me and i can explain the reasons to others. Others may dump this on me, but im always willing to learn, especially from others.

The main thing to remember, is that, the real learning always starts post schooling, and that, depending on the school, and how good and real the staff is, the transition will be much easier.

The chefs at my school are actually still working in the industry.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

DeBord,
The comments on requirements listed in the classified only reenforce my thoughts about backing up any culinary education with a business education, or vice versa.
The dollar has become the dominating and driving force in the field. A lot of food service directors and managers have great business style but know little about the kitchen. The only thing they have to rely on when it comes to hiring is the speel from the schools.
2cents.
O&W


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## paul kwong (Aug 17, 2001)

I think it was julia childs who said after you graduate from chef school it will take at least ten year of work to qualify to be a sous chef.My own cooking mantra is every day teach one thing and learn one thing.Back in the mid 80s i learned to take the females out of garde manger onto the line,in fact at one point our whole dinning room dinner line at the four season olympic hotel in seattle was female.Go get um girls.
luv kwong


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

you know what, im taking extra courses, not because im going to be some sort of "uber chef" (maybe possible) but more to the point, that it is very important that i keep learning at a level that iam accustomed to. Just like some ppl do PHd etc.

The unfortunate thing is that where iam at this stage, does not leave me scope to learn additional skills. However, by seeking these additional skills further away from the workplace, iam both (in attempt that is), hopefully, iam both skiling myself for the future and keeping my hopes alive, without the urgency of the need to "job-hop" in any great need.

So in a objective sense, im very much trying to update and keep my skills alive by keeping both a independantly and autonomously skill level far beyond the current job i hold now.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I'm not a professional chef nor have had any training other than out of cookbooks and the information that I've gotten from the fine folks here. My .02 worth: just put some flour, water, yeast and salt in front of a budding chef and watch what the person does with it. The observations alone should tell you something.

Off on a tangent: many graduates from chiropractic school can't run a business let alone find a job. Yet their technical chiropractic skills are fine.

The "traditional" (emphasis on traditional) purpose of a school is to educate, teach a discipline, learn a trade as opposed to run a business.

I realize that the last statement will provoke lots of arguments which I won't field. It's just a simple observation that I'm making.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Hey - I have worked with both kinds of culinary grads , the ones who know it all , and the ones who would like to learn the proper applications of there knowledge . So Much more goes into being a chef and you can never stop learning . There is the food quality ,
the food cost , the scheduling , the labor cost , sanitation , supply & equipment purchases as well as maintenence , safety in the workplace , fire supression systems , as well as crowd control at special catering events . The list goes on and on but the truely successful chef adapts and meets new challenges with positive action which comes from lots of practice solving problems . Remember to never quit learning and good luck and keep cookin .


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