# finger on back of knife??



## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

here is a question i have posed on other threads but no one has answered (maybe because it was a side item to the main thread??)

what is wrong with putting your index finger on the back of a knife?

the "pro" method of holding a knife is via the "pinch grip" and i have seen
an alton brown show where knife skills were discussed and he said not to put the finger on the back of the blade but didn't go on to explain why not.
on several other threads sandra lee was poo-pooed as an amateur for putting her finger on the back of the blade, but watch emeril and especially "iron chef" and you will see that finger poised on the back of the blade A LOT!! especially with iron chef, both the iron chefs and the challengers will put their fingers on the back of the blade (just watch!! they do!!) and i will put iron chef sakai's bladework up against ANYONE. (he's really good!!)

so i repeat the question ... 
WHAT IS WRONG WITH PUTTING YOUR FINGER ON THE BACK OF A KNIFE??


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

Putting your index finger on the spine of the knife, as opposed to curling it around the side of the blade nearest the handle, will reduce the amount of control and stability you have over the knife.

By placing your thumb (for right-handed folks), on the left side of the blade nearest the handle, and curling your index finger around the right side, you "choke up" on the blade. BOTH digits are in contact with a wider surface area of the blade and hence, greater control. You can perform a variety of slicing tasks with greater speed and accuracy than the finger on top grip.

Mark


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## kerryclan (Mar 13, 2005)

In addition to what MarkV said, it also depends on what you are doing. When chopping, slicing, dicing, where more the center to almost the length of the blade is being used you should not have the finger extended along the back of the blade. For fine chiffonade or otherwise delicate work where the leading edge of the knife is dominant, the finger is okay if you feel you have more control.

Lee extends the finger along the blade for just about everything. More of a concern is the position of her left hand fingers. I cringe.


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

Awwwww, she could put those fingers of her left hand in mine any day. :blush:


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## kerryclan (Mar 13, 2005)

MarkV - you be Baaaaad!


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

I know her cooking techniques are laughable but I still think she's adorable.


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## redace1960 (Apr 1, 2005)

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. 
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW.

eGullet.com has one of the best discussions of this topic i've seen. (knife technique, not puddin' cups. eeeeeeeeeeeeew.)

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=25958
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=25957


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

Redrace:

She's thin. She's blonde. And she has a cute face.

It can't get much better than that.

Mark


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## kerryclan (Mar 13, 2005)

...sure it can get and is better, you forgot rich & brainless!


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## redace1960 (Apr 1, 2005)

markv-
re kerryclans:

".....Lee extends the finger along the blade for just about everything. More of a concern is the position of her left hand fingers." 

...when you say you want those rosy digits cradled in yours, you mean you want them attached to a palm, right? 

or maybe, just maybe, now, we have discovered the identity of the mystery donor behind the recent spate of 'woops! now wheres my finger?" lawsuits. sheer conjecture, of course............


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

Ok, now you're getting macabre.

Yes, I would like the fingers attached to a palm.

Mark


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## redace1960 (Apr 1, 2005)

the one who makes me break out in a cold sweat waiting for the fateful blow is that thirty minute gourmet girl. i can't look when she gets to hacking.

i don't see that the finger on the back of the blade really affords all that much more superior control. i cant use it any more; i have granules in the right index knuckle joint and i suspect thats why, so i had to switch grips a few years back. its a good idea to learn and practice the 'approved grips'. you learn a variety of methods that might work for you- that repetoire is what i fell back on and i'm glad i learned it in the beginning...but after all, what matters is the end product; beautiful cuts and no missing fingers. 

anyone remember that commercial for kitchen faucets or something with the guy chopping veggies and flicking them about like cirque de soliel? theres the guy whos hand ID hold. only not when he was, you know, chopping things up.


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

I've never used the finger on top of the blade method but I would think that it would cause a lot of fatigue if you are doing a lot of prep. I think it also depends on the knife you are using. I couldn't see me using this method on my 10" chef knife but maybe on a 6" utility knife.

Jock


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

======= i noticed you didn't mention the massive [email protected]@ters


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

===== well ... tonight on iron chef america, a repeat of morimoto vs. puck,
we see morimoto again and again slicing VERY quickly and VERY precisely
with his finger on the spine of his yanagi, his deba, and back to his yanagi.
so the question goes begging ... is the finger on the spine REALLY any less
quick or accurate than the pinch grip?? or should we just quit passing around this kitchen myth??


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## mangilao30 (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't know if it is an Asian thing or not, I have always sliced with my index finger gracing the top of my knife (from watching my parents) while my husband, a Italian says that what I do is dangerous and inaccurate.

We both slice paper thin fennel, tomatoes, potaotes and carpaccio. Go figure, as long as you have control and can achieve your purpose, I say there's no right or wrong when it comes to finger grips.


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

I didn't say that the finger on the spine of the knife causes you have to have no control. Nor did I say that such a grip would limit your control to a level sub par for culinary accuracy.

What I said was that choking up on the blade will afford you _better_ control and accuracy.

It's not like one technique is worthless and the other is far superior. We're splitting hairs here.

But from a biomechanic point of view, choking up on the blade produces a more stable grip.

Obviously a seasoned pro like Morimoto, who has years of practice under his belt, can become highly skilled with a finger-on-the-spine grip.

But I'd be willing to bet that if you had 2 Morimotos with the exact same skill level, but each had used a different grip from day one, that the choking-up-on-the-blade Morimoto would have a slight edge, (pardon the pun).

Mark


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

it may be true that we are splitting hairs on this issue, but heck, why not??

using the finger pinch grip you are choking up, that's for sure, but if you
watch iron chef et. al. and see the chefs with their finger on the spine, they
are choking up as well. of course, what is silly is holding the rear half
of the knife handle and placing the finger on the spine.

the original idea of this thread was to explore the myth of the finger
on the spine and why it should NOT be done. in so many articles on knife skills it is condemned as a proper grip on a knife i had to wonder why not,
especially when i see so many really good chefs using this grip and having
all their fingers.

and since i haven't read anything substantial about it actually being dangerous, (and just SAYING it is dangerous doesn't make it so!!), 
shouldn't the myth be laid to rest?

(by the way .... i have friends who work in the ER and they haven't noticed
any significant number of patients coming in because of the finger on the spine grip.)


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## keeperofthegood (Oct 5, 2001)

Leaver and Pivot. A knife is a very simple tool. The Lever. The hand is the pivot point. Proper placement of the pivot is how you achieve speed, accuracy, and ease of use as you are applying the physics of motion and force to complete a job.

Wind out the monkeys but of course I bet a physist would say I was at least partially right 

http://teacher.scholastic.com/dirtrep/simple/lever.htm

(although, reading through university sites, a knife is more properly a wedge...)


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

The reason you pinch the side of a chef's knife is so the knife has a decreased chance of slippage. If you're a master chef with wicked knife skills, then well... do what you want. Do you trust yourself that much? The pinch grip is there to correct for user error. Using the pinch grip, your badly angled knife motion can be easily corrected for. Placing your index finger at the back of the blade, the blade can slip to the side and embed itself in your fingers. (and regarding your hospital anecdotal evidence... all I can say is that in all my experience, I've found that cooks who stray from traditional technique are more prone to hurt themselves at work.)

It's also not really a good idea to gague practical, safe kitchen technique on Iron Chef. Working in a normal restaurant environment where you regularly find yourself doing mundane tasks like slicing 35 pounds of cremini mushrooms, it is best to use the safest, most secure grip possible. Around pound fifteen it is very easy to lose focus, and do some serious damage to yourself.

Cooking at home or on television it seems less relevant to me. But when you need 2 quarts of brunoised shallots like, five minutes ago, I feel it is best to play it safe.


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

LogghiB:

I couldn't agree with you more even if tortured to do so.

Yes, there is less chance of slippage when pinching the knife than putting your finger on the spine. Not a perfect analogy but it's like the difference in stability between ice skates and roller skates. 

And I can totally relate to the increased chance of knife errors with extended cutting tasks. In one French place I worked, I had to make finely brunoised vegetables by the quart. It definitely took extra mental effort as the task went along. It's easy to lose concentration and cut yourself.

Mark


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## beefcheeks (Apr 3, 2005)

I found myself using the finger on spine technique after purchasing an 6" Forschner of all brands. It's serrated and I bought it to be used as a tomato/utility knife, but it works beautifully chopping and dicing onions among other things. My hands are big, so I bang knuckles on a knife this small. But when I went finger on spine style, I was chopping onions faster than a teppanyaki chef on crack.  For now, this is the only knife I use for chopping onions...and tomatoes too.


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

===== this is exactly what i was aiming at ... in several various tasks,
the finger on the spine is a very safe, fast, and accurate knife
technique. i never claimed it to be the ONLY technique, but that it
it should not be dismissed either! i am willing to bet that more injuries
occur from the pinch grip when tired/bored/lack of focus than with
the finger on spine technique.


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

I can't say that this is false, but it does not fit with my professional experience.

Cooks I've worked with who use a more traditional grip are, in my limited field of experience, less prone to injury.


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

KeeperOfTheGood said:


> Leaver and Pivot. A knife is a very simple tool. The Lever. The hand is the pivot point. Proper placement of the pivot is how you achieve speed, accuracy, and ease of use as you are applying the physics of motion and force to complete a job.
> ===== there are two basic ways to use the knife. one is as a wedge
> pushing down on the object cut, and the other is as a saw, moving back
> and forth. when used as a wedge, pushing down, there is no lever. when
> ...


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## mikeb (Jun 29, 2004)

I used to be one of those people who rediculed the idea of putting my finger on the spine of a knife, passing it off as an 'amateur' technique. Now I use it whenever I'm using a slicing motion and want delicate cuts. It locks the knife at the same angle relative to your arm, it helps me cut thing the exact same every slice, even when I'm going very quickly...

I still use the pinch grip (finger and thumb along the sides) when I need more power, or when I'm using a rocking motion to cut certain items.

BTW, I haven't cut myself in a very long time, safety-wise I can't rate each. However I do see lots of amateurs cut themselves with the finger on top of the spine, not sure if it's the technique or general lack of skill...


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## hipjoint (Jan 29, 2005)

======== and as i have been looking into this subject more and more,
i have found no less than four sushi/sashimi books written by japanese,
where the photos of how to cut/slice the fish and in ALL FOUR of the
books the japanese chefs are holding their sushi knives with their finger on
the spines of their yanagi and deba knives! are we going to say they are
amateurs and proposing unsafe bladework?? the japanese are argueably
some of the most precise cutters/slicers/filleters anywhere and the finger 
on the back of the knife is their preferred grip.

and one question ... when said amateurs are cutting themselves, which hand
are they cutting?? if it is the food holding hand, then any grip can cause that, but only if they are cutting the knife hand can the grip then be called dangerous.


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## sickmick (Aug 24, 2015)

I see how this is true.  I used to be a one knife guy but as I've learned to efficiently prepare different food, I've collected a variety of knives.  When I use a yanagiba for intricate cuts I've put my index finger on the spine.  When I use a deba type knife I do the same but alternate grips for different slices.  With a 10" Shun I use a slight pinch grip for prepping veggies and herbs since the D shaped yo handle allows only one comfortable grip.  While dicing roma tomatoes with my circa 1970's Henckels 6" knife,  I've noticed that I alternate from an index on the spine grip for the horizontal slices back to a pinch grip for the vertical slices.  When I use a French knife (usually an 8" Henckels), I use the pinch grip.  This is the one that formed a callus 20 something years ago and is always the most comfortable way for me to hold a knife during heavy prep.  As matter of fact, the same knife has put that callus there.  I think that I'd have some sort of ghost pains if I lost that knife!  I ventured here because I had a few temps working today in my kitchen.  Their knife skills were tragic and I wanted to show them safer techniques.  All 3 of them used a full handle grip and had their free hand with finger tips out.  Arrgh!  They were all interested in learning proper technique and safety after reading various threads in these forums.  Much more advice was offered to them here than a busy and cranky chef could teach them under the gun today! Thank you all for your input!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Boy I don't have time to read all the comments in this post so excuse any redundancy, but putting the i-finger on the spine I feel is in "most" cases a bad habit that simply carried over. I just naturally stopped doing it a long time ago.

If sushi chefs do it I guess they have a reason but I'll have to plead ignorance as to why.

Anyway, the real power for cutting comes from the back-end fingers leveraging against the other end of the hand and lower joint of the index, control is in the pinch.

A knife/sword fighting instructor I knew said one of his best students was a butcher, no pun intended, as he really had an innate ability in using his rear fingers for power, They're also very important to prevent choking up as happens with a full hammer-grip, and also for just hanging onto your weapon, particularly as you swing around in a follow-thru.

So give some consideration to what your rear fingers do.

Rick


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## jroux (Aug 5, 2015)

Ok,so i dont mean to come across as arrogant...that is not my intention what so ever by stating this..but i attend the Culinary Institute of America. We were taught in traditional french culinary fundamentals that, the proper way to grasp your blade is to grip it with the index and thumb (near the end of the blade closest to the bolster of course) .. However, the only time i have been taught to grip the knife with your fingers around the handle and the fingerprint of your index finger on the spine is when you are fabricating meat. For instance, finding the "natural seams" in a Beef shoulder clod, if you wanted to peel away the "sub-primals" you would need to "Draw" your knife though the seams to have clean separate sub portions of meat opposed to just hacking blindly...by having your index finger on the top of the blade ...the blade itself is an extension of your index finger which allows you to make long smooth cuts because in this instance you are separating thin connective tissue, opposed to chopping or dicing. And by the blade acting as an extension of your index finger, you are quite literally able to point out the areas to fabricate. Hope this helps...


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## jroux (Aug 5, 2015)

MarkV said:


> Putting your index finger on the spine of the knife, as opposed to curling it around the side of the blade nearest the handle, will reduce the amount of control and stability you have over the knife.
> 
> By placing your thumb (for right-handed folks), on the left side of the blade nearest the handle, and curling your index finger around the right side, you "choke up" on the blade. BOTH digits are in contact with a wider surface area of the blade and hence, greater control. You can perform a variety of slicing tasks with greater speed and accuracy than the finger on top grip.
> 
> Mark


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## iridium12 (Feb 24, 2015)

Jroux said:


> Ok,so i dont mean to come across as arrogant...that is not my intention what so ever by stating this..but i attend the Culinary Institute of America. We were taught in traditional french culinary fundamentals that, the proper way to grasp your blade is to grip it with the index and thumb (near the end of the blade closest to the bolster of course) .. However, the only time i have been taught to grip the knife with your fingers around the handle and the fingerprint of your index finger on the spine is when you are fabricating meat. For instance, finding the "natural seams" in a Beef shoulder clod, if you wanted to peel away the "sub-primals" you would need to "Draw" your knife though the seams to have clean separate sub portions of meat opposed to just hacking blindly...by having your index finger on the top of the blade ...the blade itself is an extension of your index finger which allows you to make long smooth cuts because in this instance you are separating thin connective tissue, opposed to chopping or dicing. And by the blade acting as an extension of your index finger, you are quite literally able to point out the areas to fabricate. Hope this helps...


I will add my two cents at this stage  Have been absent for quite a while due to work, so need to make myself heard again 

You have put it very nicely - drawing with the knife as opposed to dicing, mincing, cutting, etc...

The main reason you will see many sushi chefs holding their knifes the "wrong" way is, that more important than speed is the exact cut. Not to say that our friends across the sea are slow - anything but in my experience.

In my own humble experience it is definitely worth and advised to learn the traditional grip. There is a reason this has held its place in the culinary arts all these years, and trust me, it is not because it is the easiest way to grip a knife.

Safety is a major concern - not really for those that have experience and long hours behind them, but for people starting in the culinary arts.

Quite easily put - when you place your finger on the top, you are quite likely to slip of towards the side when trying to gain speed or doing a task for a very prolonged period of time i.e. prep. When this happens the finger is automatically placed under the moving knife - result is deep cuts or worse.

Pinching the knife will fatigue your fingers less and due to less pressure on the finger a slip will not automatically bring the finger down on the cutting board. Very easily - try it.

Take your knife and place your finger on the top. Now slip off and watch your finger propel down onto the working surface very quickly (pressure or whatever medical professionals would call it now).

Do the same with the pinch grip and notice, that as the finger is curled, there is less pressure and hence the finger does not propel down towards the working surface.

Ok, now that our of the way - of course the finger on top is not "wrong". I don't think it should be seen as a novice move or a sign that someone does not belong into the kitchen, BUT, learning the traditional technique holds a lot of merit and once mastered, it can always be customised to ones own preferences - even though I have not met many people who customise their knife grip.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Good God. I'dve thought this was long dead.

Japanese draw-cutting is almost invariably done with the index finger on the spine. One effect, paradoxically, is that you put essentially no force into the cut, and let the weight of the knife and its motion do the work. This is ideal for a lot of fish work. With vegetable cutting, the question doesn't really arise, because an usuba is held in so many grips depending on the cuts and materials.

If you learned that one should never ever put the index finger on the spine, you learned wrong. If you learned that it is almost never the right way to cut in a French kitchen, you learned right.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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