# friend got Botchlaism from a weding cater



## damack (Feb 21, 2007)

im just posting this as a heads up, i have a friend that went to a wedding last weekend and went to the hospital a few days later, at first they didn’t think there was anything wrong but now she has Botchlaism she will be in ICU for 3 month and in the hospital and this is how they found out she is pregnant, she is paralyzed all over her whole body except she can still move her eyes and blink

im not writing this because i want pity for my friend, but if i knew that cater they would probly be out of a job, well i am mad at who did this but also i don’t want this to happen to any one else

but im writing this because i want to make sure that our craft and art stay right, know who you are doing business with, check your food and if it doesn’t look good, DONT SERVE IT, don’t use it, you can be out of a job or in a court room paying off medical debts.

make sure you know what your doing if its to big of a job or if they are not paying enough and u choose to use less quality product DONT DO THIS.


this is what i go buy at work, if it doesn’t look good enough for you to eat then throw it away.


----------



## shipscook (Jan 14, 2007)

botulism bacteria can not be seen, smelled, or tasted.
I can not post a link here, but if you do a search, you will find a lot of information on the three types of botulism.
A big cause is the improper home canning of low acid foods. Also found in meat products.
It is also very important to try and keep any of the suspect food for lab work.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

My sympathies to your friend about her condition. Botulism is not something to take lightly. Hopefully the board of health will be able to track down the source of the botulism and remove the threat. If it originated with the caterer, I am sure that others that attended the same function will also exhibit symptoms. The sad thing about food borne illnesses is that the transmission of them is usually not detectable through any of our five senses. So while the rule "if it doesn't look right, throw it out" is certainly a good one, it is not comprehensive enough to prevent the transmission of food borne illnesses. The best solution for that is education. The average worker in our industry is woefully ignorant on the subject of food borne illnesses and the amount of mis-information out there is truly staggering. We owe it to ourselves, to make sure that we are educated on the subject, so that hopefully, we can become contributing factors to raising the general awareness of food borne illness and it's prevention in our industry.


----------



## bluezebra (May 19, 2007)

Wow!!! So very sorry to hear this!!! *shudders*


----------



## lentil (Sep 8, 2003)

So sorry to hear about your friend. I hope she has a full recovery!

I question whether she really got it from the wedding food, though. It would seem that she wouldn't be the only one to get it since there were many people eating the same food.


----------



## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

wow, guess they may not have been paying attention is food handling class.


----------



## damack (Feb 21, 2007)

well thats what i was thinking at first too but with her being pregnant her imune system is not at top notch and it could be something that, any one eles could fight off but due to this she was the one that didnt fight it off. 

just make sure you guys dont do this to any one eles this is a horable way to have the end of a wedding weekend, CYA


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

"A big cause is the improper home canning of low acid foods."

Bzzt! Wrong! Thanks for playing.

Most food-borne boutulism events are traced to restaurants and other commercial establishments (including small, custom canning operations), not to home canning.

Although conventional wisdom has it that improperly home-canned foods are a major cause of boutulism, the facts do not bear this out. 

For the last year I checked, there were only 23 food borne boutulism events in all of North America. Of those, 5 cases (one event) could be traced to home-canned foods.

And, as it turns out, the canning process wasn't at fault. The foodstuff was used in a mayo-based salad, which was set out on a picnic table, and sat there for several hours. 

I am not belittling the need for following safe canning practices. But I'm getting a little tired of these unsupported scare stories too. 

One of the problems is understanding the published information. USDA, for instance, says you must hold food at 240 F for X time to kill boutulism bacteria. Then you read CDC reports, and they say 175F. 

The difference is significant. Old timers used to believe that they could can low-acid foods safely by increasing the boiling time. CDC would seem to support this, because you do not need a pressure canner to maintain 175F (for you foreigners, water boils at 212F), but you do need one to maintain 240F.

Turns out, as you read deeper, that CDC is talking about what it takes to destroy the toxins; which is not the same as destroying the bacteria. 

There is often contradictory information from the same agency, too, which certainly doesn't help. For instance, the Extension Service's Homemakers organization still recommends boiling suspect food for ten minutes. But the Master Preserver program holds this practice in disrepute.

Is a definate puzzlement.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Could you please elaborate because mayo sitting out for a few hours sounds more like a case for salmonella than botulism, since botulism is anaerobic.


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

Shipscook
Since C Bot is anaerobic (does not multiply when exposed to air), how is it found in meat products, other than cross contamination (which would mean all food products)?

As far as the caterer liability, this particular case should not put them out of business, but might hurt the reputation. Botulism doesn't appear overnight either. Chances are a supplier ingredient is at fault, so the money will follow it back to production. Unless of course, it was a friends home made canned ceaser dressing. That would be really bad and illegal.

Cat Man


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

KY

Did you just say that 5 of the 23 cases were home canning origin?
22-23% of the US cases and you consider that insignificant?

I must disagree. It is significant and more dangerous since the likelyhood of a higher degree of consumption of the contaminated product.

Regarding C Bot toxins, my understanding is once the toxins are present, no amount of cooking or acid introduction will kill toxins.

Cat Man


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Catman, you need to read what I write a little closer. And learn the terminolgy if you want to discuss these things. 

For the year quoted, there are several aspects you are reading incorrectly. 

First, I said "all of North America," not "United States." What this demonstrates, among other things, is that food borne botulism---from any cause---is rather rare. Considering all the noise that's made about it, I find this rather strange.

Second, go back and see where I say "event" and where I say "case." Those are distinctly different things. 

An event, as reported by health officials, refers to causation. Let's say you are on a cruise ship and there's an outbreak of some disease. That is an event. A case is a specific infection. Using that same example, if 300 people on the ship come down with the disease (or symptoms of the disease) then you have one event and 300 cases. 

There are numbers of cases that define when an "event" becomes a "pandemic," and when a "pandemic" becomes an "epidemic." 

So, just to be clear, for the year cited, there were 23 food-borne situations (events) that caused people (I don't have total numbers, cuz I wasn't interested in them at the time) to exhibit symptoms of boutulism. Of those, only one event, for a total of 5 people (cases) could be traced to home-canned food. And in that case, as mentioned, it was not the processing but later misuse. 

Given those figures, if you want to figure percentages, you would first have to determine how many thousands of jars of food are home-canned in North America. And then figure what percentage of that number is represented by one jar. So, it might turn out that your 22-23 figure is correct; except there are a whole lot of zeros between the decimal point and that first 2. 

But even if all 23 events resulted from home-canned food, you are still doing the math wrong. The question being discussed is whether or not improperly home-canned food is a big cause of boutulism. To determine that, the population is every jar of home-canned food, laid against the number of them that caused the problem. So it would be X-thousands against 23.

If you were more concerned with reading correctly, and understanding these things, instead of tying to prove me wrong all the time, this wouldn't be a problem.

"Regarding C Bot toxins, my understanding is once the toxins are present, no amount of cooking or acid introduction will kill toxins."

Your understanding may be correct, based on the references you consulted. The basic problem, as I clearly indicated, is that different agencies, and different departments within the same agency, have different research parameters and have established different protocols. 

Personally, having first-hand knowledge of how they work, if there's a conflict between USDA and CDC, I'll go with CDC every time. But that's a different issue. 

No matter whose protocols you choose, however, the fundamental fact is that home-canned food is not a significant cause of food-borne boutulism, and is not considered to be so among food safety officials. 

"more like a case for salmonella than botulism, since botulism is anaerobic."

That would have been my assumption, too, Cheflayne. So, obviously, there was more involved. But I can only go with what was reported. And it was awhile ago that I checked, and do not have that report anymore.

I can make a guess about what happened. But won't, Catman would then go on the attack again, overlooking the fact that I was speculating. 

However, for anyone who's really interested, you can easily search out all this information, and find the latest annual figures---and explanations for them---because they are all published on the net.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

from CDC website, if you go to USDA website and type in botulism, you get sent to exact same CDC page

How common is botulism? 
In the United States an average of 110 cases of botulism are reported each year. Of these, approximately 25% are foodborne, 72% are infant botulism, and the rest are wound botulism. Outbreaks of foodborne botulism involving two or more persons occur most years and usually caused by eating contaminated home-canned foods. The number of cases of foodborne and infant botulism has changed little in recent years, but wound botulism has increased because of the use of black-tar heroin, especially in California.

How can botulism be prevented? 
Botulism can be prevented. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn. However, outbreaks of botulism from more unusual sources such as chopped garlic in oil, chile peppers, tomatoes, improperly handled baked potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil, and home-canned or fermented fish. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Instructions on safe home canning can be obtained from county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Because honey can contain spores of Clostridium botulinum and this has been a source of infection for infants, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs.


----------



## shipscook (Jan 14, 2007)

Cat Man;180081 said:


> Shipscook
> Since C Bot is anaerobic (does not multiply when exposed to air), how is it found in meat products, other than cross contamination (which would mean all food products)?
> 
> From what I understand from a link from:cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html--the bacteria is in soil and water and when ingested by a fish, bird or other animal it can be in smoked or cured meats that have not been brought up to temp. Several cases in Alaska and the Orient have been from dried or fermented fish.
> ...


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

KY
Thanks for the beating.
I was a little feisty yesterday and probably provoked you unreasonably.
Apologies for that.

It seems there is a lot of conflicting information available.
Even though the CDC, USDA and FDA finally began working closer together (for the first time, the 3 collaborated on the 1999 Food Code, and each one since), it appears there are still conflicts of data and reporting amongst the three agencies.

Obviously, foodborne C Bot is a major concern for all, mainly because the health impact is so significant a risk even for perfectly healthy people. (As opposed to Salmonella and E Coli o157h7 which are easily overcome by the general population, except, of course, young, elderly and sick).

Regardless, any case of C Bot poisoning is unfortunate and I feel for anyone unfortunate enough to experience it.

Cat Man


----------



## tigerwoman (Jul 18, 2002)

QUOTE=damack;180034]im just posting this as a heads up, i have a friend that went to a wedding last weekend and went to the hospital a few days later, at first they didn’t think there was anything wrong but now she has Botchlaism she will be in ICU for 3 month and in the hospital and this is how they found out she is pregnant, she is paralyzed all over her whole body except she can still move her eyes and blink

im not writing this because i want pity for my friend, but if i knew that cater they would probly be out of a job, well i am mad at who did this but also i don’t want this to happen to any one else

but im writing this because i want to make sure that our craft and art stay right, know who you are doing business with, check your food and if it doesn’t look good, DONT SERVE IT, don’t use it, you can be out of a job or in a court room paying off medical debts.

First of all what a horrible experience for your friend - let's keep her in our thoughts and prayers for a speedy and complete recovery. It also goes to show you to pay attention to your body and err on the side of caution in going to the doctor and hospitial when something is just not right.

Having been a professional food safe food handler for many years, I can still hear the voice of the NYC dept of health food safety instructor in my head and man do I take his wise advise seriously. As Ship cooks mentioned and my instructer (and I took this course for the first time almost 17 years ago and by the way got 100% on the final) pointed out dangerous bacteria is not always visible or detectable with the naked eye or human nose. 

This is why using a trained, experieced, licensed and insured caterer is key for customers. Not to say that the insurance and license makes things 100% safe of course. Really in my book it is a combination of experience and common sense along with a true caring. and if nothing else, care about your business and the repecutions of getting someone sick. 

Recently on another forum, a catering buddy of mine posted that she was looking for decorative but food safe chinese to go containers and that many caterers were using ones that are not deemed safe for food service.
here's what she wrote to me in a private email
" had to refuse to serve their food in anything rather than the generic takeout containers due to issues of food safety and FDA approval. I really cannot believe that XYZ and others don't care that
they are serving in food in dangerous containers. Doesn't matter to me that it's a one time deal.
You never know who might be in such fragile health that that could tip them over. I would find
it terribly hard to forgive myself."

now that's a responsible caterer. The other caterers she was referring to are also legal caterers, and maybe it never occured to them but education and caution works wonders - preventitive medicine so to speak. Customers are really hiring our expertise.






Have a delicious and safe day!!


----------



## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Bravo!!! thank you for elaborating Chef Tigerwoman.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>From what I understand from a link from:cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html--the bacteria is in soil and water and when ingested by a fish, bird or other animal it can be in smoked or cured meats that have not been brought up to temp. <

This can be true. The question becomes, what level of bacteria, under what conditions, is dangerous? Let's not forget that botulism bacteria (albeit a different strain) are what many women are injecting into their lips.

Answering that question, however, is what becomes nebulous. What has to be kept in mind, too, is the question: who is establishing protocols, and on what basis?

In the United States, for instance, we tend to err on the side of safety; perhaps going overboard---many food scientists worldwide think so.

Putting aside private agendas (which are a lot more common than most of us think), one of the concerns is that our protocols are often based on the fact that our ability to measure nothing is constantly improving. Back in the day, when I first became editor of Package Engineering, parts per million were the normal measurement of these things. Two years later, parts per billion were becoming common. Now we blythly talk in terms of parts per trillion.

Question: If X parts per million were safe 30 years ago, why are they not safe today? Is it because new experimental evidence has indicated a change? Or is it _merely _because we can now measure parts per trillion, and, therefore, will use that measurement.

Too often, as anyone who has worked with them knows, the later is the reason many US agencies use those measurements. There has been no experimental evidence indicating whether or not the protocol reflects more safety than previous ones.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

"and probably provoked you unreasonably."

Just out of curiousity, Catman, what would constitute reasonable provocation?


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

not wishing to stir anything up, but from point of expanding education, excerpts from an article about botulism by Peter P Taillac, MD, Associate Professor of Surgery, Division of Emergency Medicine, University of Utah Health Sciences Center

"Most cases in the continental US are associated with home-canned vegetable products such as asparagus, green beans, and peppers. Of the average 30-40 food-borne US cases per year, 60% are type A, 18% type B, and 22% type E. Alaska, California, Michigan, Washington, New Mexico, Illinois, Oregon, and Colorado have the highest incidences of food-borne botulism.

The toxin type most often responsible for food-borne illness corresponds well with the geographic distribution of the toxigenic species. Type A is most common west of the Mississippi, type B east of the Mississippi, and type E in Alaska. Toxin type A produces a more severe illness than type B, which in turn is more severe than type E.

By far, home-processed foods are responsible for most (94%) outbreaks of food-borne botulism in the continental US. In fact, of the 6% of outbreaks caused by mass-produced commercial foods, most cases were attributed to consumer mishandling of commercial products. "


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Just proves what we've been saying: that everybody involved seems to have different figures, different information, different points of view.

According to CDC (see your own post below), for instance, there are an average of 27 food-borne cases annually. That's a long way from 40. We're talking a 48% difference between his figures and CDC's.

Indeed, the statement "of the average 30-40" represents one heck of a spread. We're talking a 33% difference on the "average." In short, from a statistical viewpoint, that's a meaningless statement. 

I would also like to see his source material for the statment that 94% of food-borne outbreaks come from home-canned foods. True, I haven't looked at figures for the past few years. But that flies in the face of all previous years I've looked at. And, again according to CDC, the figures have not changed significantly in many years. 

I'd also like to know his definition of "outbreak." Is that one event? One case? 

Now, before anyone jumps salty, I am not attacking this guy. What I'm doing is just demonstrating why there is so much confusion on this subject.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

stats from a study by CDC on botulism in years 1950-1996
sources of outbreaks: home 65%/ commercial 7%/unknown 28%

trivia time: 
Which state usually has highest incidences of food borne botulism? Where does the name botulism derive from?


----------



## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

(empty)


----------



## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

(empty)


----------



## shipscook (Jan 14, 2007)

Amen, and thank you Luc H


----------



## frayedknot (Dec 17, 2006)

*Please nobody take offense here but I hope this incident has nothing to do with recent disasters in catering we have been hearing here.*

Quite frankly, you and others have made this post quite interesting.

In my past life developed retail shopping centers for a living (quite a good living too) One of my mentors gave me some sage advice that I continue to adhere to and find oddly applicable to this thread: "be very careful how you work the numbers, after all you can make the numbers work to achieve whatever outcome you wish, success can only be achieved by being truthful to oneself" 
Thanks to all for the discussion, I too will keep the lady and her child in my daily thoughts, and can only hope for a full recovery.


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

KY
Botulism in fish is why all finfish sold for commercial consumption must be properly gutted before being taken to market. Some chefs prefer to gut their own fish, but this is basically illegal.

As for the CFU levels (colony forming units, sometimes known as plate counts), every individual has his/her very own tolerance level.
Generally, a minimum impact potential level is used as a baseline, thus hopefully protecting the less protected masses (young, old, ill etc).
Much the same for food allergens actually.

Your post was interesting as it brings in to perspective how relatively recent much of this science is. Remember Jack in the Box and ecoli? A lot of people don't know that this episode led to the discovery of the o157h7 strain. It was only what, 15 years ago, or so?
Before that, who knows how many older people died from ecoli infections, yet were probably just thought of as old and sick.

I thought it was groundbreaking news when the CDC/FDA announced the results of their food poisoning study estimating 76 million foodborne illnesses in the US annually, with over 5000 deaths. Nobody realized how big food safety is.

That was a wakeup call for many in the food industry. Same with the time/temp coorealation for kill steps.

The BSE outbreak in the UK coincidentaly (or perhaps not) happended right after UK authorities allowed the rendered meat and bonemeal to be pasteurized at 170 degrees, rather than the previous temp of (202 I believe). They still don't know how to get rid of the killer prions, other than to avoid consumng bovine brain and spine.

Cat Man


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

FrayedNot
What horror stories related to Catering have you been hearing in SC?

Cat Man


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

LOL
You'll know it when you feel it.

Cat man


----------



## frayedknot (Dec 17, 2006)

Cat, I guess I am not "hearing" much about the catering horror stories per se, but quite frankly, I think it is "extremely" hard to pinpoint not only the specific "case" but even harder to pinpoint the "cause". IF the problem is even correlated to food "issues" let alone the source. Consequently, that is why I have a personal interest when you and KY and others speak from "speriance" Not to take this off track but...

*So who knows*! I live along the coast (looking out on the ocean now) Several of my friends own commercial fishing boats (stay out 10-12 days), I feel the issues START there,(as with other professionals) which ironically there is little or no education/enforcement as to preservation/care of the product. Only to fill the fish boxes.(gotta pay the fuel bill) there exists little or NO REGARD to proper handleing. UH..Shushimi Tuna laying on the floor in the fish house..personal observations... Sorry but this is the fact. I live in the "Seafood Captial of South Carolina" ...

A bit off the subject but related is a personal dilema.. and it is not good....

I work in an upscale grocery, (baker and now being cross trained..to slice deli stuff...and prepare the "Chef Case".. uh.. ok.. culinary school grad) and I think the issue relates to more of an obligation to be a consumate professional. Which as we all know rests solely on the individual. Who is pressured to acheive a bottom line number. I also work as a prep for two catering companies locally... fortunately they/we have impecable standards. (Pride showing) The grocery I must tell ya.. who I have to think serves *many* more clients, has NO FOOD SAFE HANDLEING training... READ *NONE*.. PERSONAL problem for me.. (glad I had it in school) See it every day... boss complaining about how many gloves we use.. so some co workers use *2pr *per 7-8hr shift....

I personally have "shrunk read trashed" ALOT of product,(candidly becomming a problem with management) when you show up in the am to start the shift and look in the "deli case" and product is not wrapped an laying on the non-slip rubber mats (which in 7 mos I have never seen washed) from the night before and starting to discolor .and ya know what.. I make it known, *I want nothing to do with making someone sick regardless of cost, personally I feel an obligation to the public.* I will prolly loose this job over this issue.. Boss wants me to make potatoe salad from hot (READ JUST OUT OF THE STEAMER) diced taters, mayo based, and when finished put it in a CLOSED tub, cause "it makes it creamy"..OMG. Then put it in the walk-in...no telling how long it stays in the danger zone...not to mention when she "nicked" a finger with a knife ...and put her finger in her mouth and just kept going (no gloves)!!!! When she did it I asked her if she needed some help to "take care of it" NO IT IS NOT BAD....holey crap gimme a break..

Personally, I feel herein lies much of the problem, pressures to make the bottom line, employees who do not know the difference, or frankly care, Management practicing the "dont ask dont tell" We can discuss this issue till the cows come home but until the "pressure of the bottom line, the pride (wrong word,,, obligation as professionals) is implemented in the work place and is restored we are alllll banging our head against the wall...and frankly my head hurts. *I feel that these issues are paramount..especially When I THINK OF THE LADY LYING IN THE HOSPITAL AND HER UNBORN CHILD... hmmm... *

Thanks for the "rant" and I could go on and not wanting to take this thread off track ..but as you can tell I am struggleing with some basic issues .....just to have wonderful benefits at work.....I feel as though I am compromising my integrity. I will continue to think of the lady and her unborn child.. thank goodness THAT IS NOT ON MY HEAD......


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

Frayed
heck your Private messages

Cat Man


----------



## damack (Feb 21, 2007)

well i talked to mom who drove down to see her, and my mom said that she looked like her body was dead with working eyes, her cheeks were doopy and she just lyed there,

please keep jocalyn( i think thats how u spell it) in your prayers


----------



## bluezebra (May 19, 2007)

Gosh how tragic. My heart just breaks for her and her family. This should have been a time of joy and anticipation with the new baby...


----------



## cat man (May 7, 2007)

Not to beat this horse any more dead than it already is....but

"Four people were hospitalized. The warning applies to 10-ounce cans of Castleberry's, Austex and Kroger brands of hot dog chili sauce with "best by" dates from April 30, 2009, through May 22, 2009, the [/B]:siteSearch('Food%20and%20Drug%20Administration');]*Food and Drug Administration* said. It wasn't immediately clear how widely the products were distributed.
The contamination by the toxin is extremely rare for a commercially canned product. [/B]:siteSearch('Centers%20for%20Disease%20Control%20and%20Prevention');]*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention* medical epidemiologist Dr. Michael Lynch said the last such U.S. case dates to the 1970s. The roughly 25 cases reported each year typically involved home-canned foods, Lynch said".

Cat Man


----------



## luc_h (Jun 6, 2007)

(empty)


----------

