# Oven Help



## Jennifer Backus (Jun 9, 2019)

I'm new here and have been looking through a lot of different threads for help with my oven situation.

I've owned a coffee shop for 22 years and we have baked, and consistently expanded our bakery over the last 15 years. All of this time we have only been using regular home based ovens and stovetops and they have worked just perfect for us. No the Health Inspector has informed us that we are required to have all commercial equipment with no exceptions by June of 2020!

Other than the financial burden this poses I am flummoxed about what type of ovens to get as we do a little bit of everything including: muffins, cupcakes, sugar cookies, cheesecakes, cakes and bars. I'm looking for some help and direction if anyone has the time to offer some advice!

Thank you so much for taking the time to read!

Jennifer


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Just wanted to let you know to give members a few days to respond as this site covers all time zones so appropriate responses from professional bakers may take some time. 
I have no professional baking experience with oven brands so I don't know how each brand would would affect your baking needs. Any of the commercial ovens will handle all you do. As with any new oven, some adjustment in baking times for each item may be needed. 
The only advice I can provide is what I assume to be obvious. You would be looking at Convection ovens and/or standard ovens under a stove top. Check in to local restaurant suppliers to see what info and styles they can provide. Used may be a good option.
And of course, check measurements to make sure you have the space to accommodate a commercial range/oven. They are typically larger than home ones so your current work arrangement may need some adjustment. 
Your insurance, fire and otherwise may also be affected. 
You may also have to upgrade your gas lines or electric service depending on which oven you get. 
I am curious as to why the HD requires commercial ovens, especially after 22 years all of a sudden. I don't see how that affects food safety in any way and they haven't required you to get them in 22 years but now they do??? If they haven't told you, June 2020 gives you some time to find out. I'm quite curious.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Likely they will be looking for an NSF listing.


----------



## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

Go to your local restaurant supply house (NOT restaurant depot!) and talk to them; they will tell you which brands require frequent service (or they will give you the names of local service companies and you can ask them) so you know to stay away from them. 

If you've been using consumer level appliances all these years, have you not installed ventilation and fire suppression systems? Because.....

If you buy electric ovens, you may not have to have ventilation in place; electric is more expensive to run over the long term but short term you save on not having to install hoods. Check that your electrical system can handle the additional load; otherwise you are going to have to upgrade that (likely at your expense, not the landlord's responsiblity).

If you buy gas appliances, you need ventilation. Even if you aren't ever going to saute anything on a gas range, you have to have fire suppression because you have the potential to saute something and that's the key, you have to have a means to put out a gas fire.

How much volume are you doing? You might only need one convection oven; I have a Blodgett and it's been great. I don't know that I would ever buy anything else, but I recall Doyon ovens as having the ability to manage the fan speed better (convection isn't the perfect oven for baking cakes) which helps. 

Good luck!


----------



## Jennifer Backus (Jun 9, 2019)

jcakes said:


> Go to your local restaurant supply house (NOT restaurant depot!) and talk to them; they will tell you which brands require frequent service (or they will give you the names of local service companies and you can ask them) so you know to stay away from them.
> We don't have a restaurant supplier in my town but I'll do some research to see what's close by.
> 
> We do have what is apparently the "cadillac of hoods" which we were required to install when we expanded out kitchen space three years ago so thankfully I don't need to worry about that!
> ...


----------



## Jennifer Backus (Jun 9, 2019)

Yep super frustrating.
My local inspector who is pretty difficult even tried to help me see if I could file a variance. She looked into it and every business that has attempted has been told NO! I asked if I could slowly replace them? Nope, they all need to be replaced by inspection next June!


----------



## Transglutaminase (Jan 9, 2019)

Not sure where you live/local bylaws.
But, if you've been doing this for 22 years, there may be a legal/grandfather clause.
If they're d*cks about it, call the local media/news team & squawk about the fact that X employees will now be unemployed and the shop will now be shut down after 22 years of local business.. due to this new bylaw? ( might get some attention)
G'luck!


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Transglutaminase said:


> Not sure where you live/local bylaws.
> But, if you've been doing this for 22 years, there may be a legal/grandfather clause.
> If they're d*cks about it, call the local media/news team & squawk about the fact that X employees will now be unemployed and the shop will now be shut down after 22 years of local business.. due to this new bylaw? ( might get some attention)
> G'luck!


Might not be a good idea. Health boys might state a few facts when interviewed by the media, like household appliances are not rated for continuous/commercial use and probability of a fire is far higher than with commercial eqpt. Or the fact that buying household eqpt like toasters, mini fridges, and microwaves every year instead of commercial eqpt. every fifteen years is expensive and contributes to landfill


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Gas or electric? I don't know anything about where you are and the space you occupy or your operation but usually it's the building/fire inspector, your insurance company as well as your land lord who are going to have issues with what you are doing. But I guess your HD inspector has that authority. 

Gas is definitely going to require a hood and a fire suppression system. It may also require an upgrade to your gas service. However it may also be that you won't need as much equipment as you have now (what do you have?) because commercial ovens can handle a lot more than you are going to get in a residential oven. Just guessing, but what are we talking about here, maybe a 4 burner cooktop and a Blodgett oven? 

I wouldn't complain too much because I think they let you skate for 22 years. You should have known better back then that you don't use residential appliances in a commercial setting, or at least you could have upgraded over the years little by little instead of having a year to do it all.


----------



## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

For what it's worth, it could be a blessing in disguise. You already have the ventilation so that's less of an expense to face. You can go check out convection ovens and see if you can get away with a double stack to replace at least two of the ovens; use this opportunity to decide if you have room for a double stack convection and then a 4 or 6 burner range/oven combination. You are in a decent position in terms of timing; you have a year to do this instead of them saying you have to come into compliance in a shorter timeframe. In my area, a change in ownership triggers the "come up to code" where a business that may have operated for 10+ years now has to become current with the most recently accepted code. So the fact that you are already in compliance makes it easier if you ever decided you wanted to sell.....


----------



## jcakes (Feb 18, 2007)

PS, in my experience it's better to buy local and not online. If you buy online, they send a freight company to your door and drop stuff off outside. End of Story. You have to bring it in, get it placed, installed, etc. It's worth the additional expense of buying from a local restaurant supply house, having them deliver it, set it up and get it working properly. You buy online, you have to fight the vendor if there are problems. When I bought my ovens, I was sorely tempted to buy the same thing from an online vendor (it might have been BigTray at the time, this was 10 years ago) or even from the used equipment dealer; but I chose to buy new, from a local place and they took care of everything. All I had to do was show up and watch. The used place would have done the same thing but I didn't like the ovens they had. You didn't ask so my apologies for this suggestion - but always buy refrigeration new. You don't need someone else's headache when it comes to refrigeration. And used refrigeration is ALWAYS a headache.


----------



## Transglutaminase (Jan 9, 2019)

Lots of other of forum views on this, ie
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.co...appliances-used-in-commercial-buildings.5963/

It seems most bylaw/codes are more concerned with ventilation, esp. with burners, but could differ if one only uses the oven..

Might want to see a copy of the actual building (*and health code*) in your jurisdiction, ie:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/appeals/index.cfm?action=entry&appeal_id=15014

https://lakecountry.civicweb.net/document/74651

Seems some health inspectors want NSF, others not.
Locally, they seem more interested in food & waste storage, dishwashing and that the appliances get to the required temp.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Oh geez....

Look, NSF (and UL in Canada) are recognized by.... (drum roll please)...

Insurance companies!
The motto/mantra of all insurance companies is: Pay as little as late as possible.

What that means in real life is that IF a fire is started in a commercial kitchen and the Fire dept “ determines” the fire was started by a non-NSF/UL approved appliance, the insurance co. won’t pay. It also means other insurance co.s can’t sue your insurance co to pay for damage caused to adjoining properties/suites. Which makes you very unpopular with the landlord and neighbors.

Health dept might not be looking for NSF approved cooking appliances, but they are definitely looking for NSF approved sinks, prewash and landing tables, dishwashers, tables, counters, and shelving.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

NSF is and abbreviation for the National Sanitary Foundation. They make sure that the manufacturers of commercial food service equipment is made so that through cleaning and sanitizing of the item or equipment can be done. Further, they won't allow nooks and crevices where food, grease or other foreign matter can accumulate, decay and contaminate the food. So NSF approval is something the HD would be looking for and possibly the insurance company looking to avoid claims from customers over food borne illness or tainted food.

UL is a testing organization that makes sure items are safe for use in there intended application. In this case you will not see a consumer range approved for use in a commercial establishment. Consumer ranges are not designed to stand up to the use a commercial kitchen requires and can cause safety issues when things start to fail. Using equipment that does not have the required UL listing for it's use/location will certainly cause your insurance company to deny claims or cancel coverage.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

arzoochaudhary said:


> What's the problem with the ovens that you have been using since you started?
> It's their duty but you should question them on your behalf first.


It's quite clear that she should never have been using them in the first place. Now it finally caught up with her.


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Halb. It's not clear to me at all. Everyone but the original poster has an explanation. Given the vagaries I've experienced with my local health department I'd like to know why they "let it slide" for 22 years and now it's suddenly an issue. 
Either it's okay or it's not. The HD will cite you for numerous things like food stored in the danger zone, evidence of pests, etc. every time they observe those things. No one gets a pass for 22 years for a 55 degree walk in. 
If an answer is to be had, I'd like to hear one from the original posters' health department.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

chefwriter said:


> If an answer is to be had, I'd like to hear one from the original posters' health department.


I agree. Even if I understood that I had to make the changes the very first question would have been why are you telling me this now?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Meh... the mysterious ways of the health dept.... 
before 2014 I used to clear out my own grease trap. That year the h.d. told me on my annual inspection that I had to show proof of having the trap cleaned every 4 mths by a licensed co. No explanation given—and I never asked why. Last place I worked, the inspector insisted we couldn’t store food in plastic pickle/mayo buckets, we had to buy dedicated food storage containers. The two other hotels on the same block that were obviously in the same inspectors area had no problems with using pickle/mayo buckets— but I think this had something to do with our brave & fearless Chef royally p*ssing the inspector off.

In my neck of the woods the inspectors are rotated every 2 years to a new territory, I guess that has something to do with Rolling Stones and moss ( auto type capitilized Rolling Stones 5 times before I gave up...). Maybe that’s the reason why....


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

That sounds like the most likely explanation. New inspector, new supervisor, new policies- nothing is going to stay the same over 22 years.


----------



## Jennifer Backus (Jun 9, 2019)

Health dept might not be looking for NSF approved cooking appliances, but they are definitely looking for NSF approved sinks, prewash and landing tables, dishwashers, tables, counters, and shelving.[/QUOTE]

They are definitely looking for NSF cooking appliances. Absolutely no exceptions! I've tried to speak with my local inspector so many different times about it and there's just no give. 
I do understand the fire and insurance backdoor stuff and it's frustrating. 
We're headed to a test kitchen today to try out some ovens, just need to find some money!


----------



## Jennifer Backus (Jun 9, 2019)

chefwriter said:


> Halb. It's not clear to me at all. Everyone but the original poster has an explanation. Given the vagaries I've experienced with my local health department I'd like to know why they "let it slide" for 22 years and now it's suddenly an issue.
> Either it's okay or it's not. The HD will cite you for numerous things like food stored in the danger zone, evidence of pests, etc. every time they observe those things. No one gets a pass for 22 years for a 55 degree walk in.
> If an answer is to be had, I'd like to hear one from the original posters' health department.


I've gotten no answer other than unsafe cooking temperatures as in products could be in the temperature danger zone for more than 4 hours. Which is interesting as nothing I bake is in the oven more than 90 minutes and almost everything is 30 minutes or less.
The inspector informed me of the changes in 2018, gave me a reminder in 2019 and said that if we still had the ovens in 2020 we would be shut down. Just new rules she had to enforce


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Good luck!


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

My experience in trying to get plausible answers to questions from the health department was an exercise in futility. I either never got answers after being told numerous times they would get back to me after checking with their supervisors or got answers that were the equivalent of "just because". Because I am stubborn, I spent way too much time and effort over too many different episodes before I realized my best bet was the equivalent of "yes dear". Finally learned to pick my battles instead of having them pick me.


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Okay, I have two responses.
1. Unsafe temps in an oven? That makes no sense. So you have the right to a hearing and the right to see the official regulation in writing. The inspector either doesn't know the regulation, isn't interpreting it correctly or is making it up. 
If the individual inspector can't or won't answer the question, you can speak to whoever is in charge of the office and whoever is above them until you get a responsible, actual answer. 
Essentially you always have the right to question and the right to a solid answer. The health department and its employees do not get to make up regulations. They have to follow the law and no one should feel intimidated by them at any time.
Most public documents/information/procedures are easily accessible on line these days. That should include the relevant regulations in this case. If you can't find your local health codes on line, visit the local office and ask for a copy of them. 

2. Supposing the regulation is real and correctly interpreted by the inspector, you are being given three years to correct the situation. That's pretty generous. I'd start shopping for new ovens.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

chefwriter said:


> If the individual inspector can't or won't answer the question, you can speak to whoever is in charge of the office and whoever is above them until you get a responsible, actual answer.
> Essentially you always have the right to question and the right to a solid answer.


Totally agree with this 100%, however many times it is not easily actualized. For me it came down to three options:
1.) spend my time and energies running my restaurant
2.) spend my time being Don Quixote tilting at the windmill of the health department
3.) learn to coexist with the health department

The third option was the easier softer way for me, but this didn't mean blindly bowing to the aegis of the health department inspectors.

Instead, I came back at them with the regulations in printed form and my pointed logical questions in a calm and understanding manner expressing my desire to learn. Quite frankly I think I scared them with this approach of knowledge and cooperation. Knowledge is power, have more than the person standing in front of you. They became like deer in the headlights of a fast approaching diesel truck. They usually acquiesced and said they would check with their supervisors and get back to me.

They never did. However, being stubborn I did get back to them in my same calm and understanding manner still expressing my desire to learn. They were always still researching my questions and hadn't found any concrete answers yet.

Most of the time, I finally come up with a solution that was a win/win scenario for them and me. They could save face and feel good about themselves and I could get back to running my restaurant.

Learning to coexist worked for me. I was never threatened, shut down, slapped with any violations, or received any unsatisfactory evaluations and could spend my time and energies running my restaurant.


----------

