# Why my linguine with clam sauce tastes a bit dull?



## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

I used can baby whole clams and followed the usual instructions:
1. olive oil and butter
2. garlic
3. 1/2 cup of white wine
4. then after awhile, added the clam sauce from the can clam
5. add chopped parsley
6. a pinch of oregano
7. a touch of dry basil
8. some salt of course
9. then a couple of squeezes of lemon

then I tasted the linguine but it tastes sort of dull, and lifeless. I added a bit more lemon juices it helped to brighten up the taste a bit but still pretty dull. I then added some sugar and it helped a little but the same, but I don't want to add too much sugar because I don't want it to taste too sweet.

My guess it probably I used the sauce from the can. Would it help if I used dedicated clam source from bottle? Maybe I have to use fresh clams? Maybe I should add a lot of chopped parsley? I didn't want to use too much parsley because I didn't want it to overwhelm the clam.

Anyway any help is appreciated. Thanks.


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Some possibilities.

Maybe you forgot to salt your pasta cooking water? Maybe your wine was not good?

But most likely it's because you didn't add any chili, and you didn't let the pasta and the sauce simmer together long enough to meld the flavours.

By the way, lemon juice is not usually added in this dish.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Were your parsley and oregano also dried? If so, then I think that would be the culprit. This dish doesn't cook long enough to gain what dried herbs can offer.

The canned clams don't help but aren't an automatic point of failure.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

A splash of nam pla would bring umami to the party and heighten the flavors.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Your best bet would be to use fresh clams. Much, much better flavor. And make sure you season with salt. Both the pasta water and the pasta (not too much, clams can be salty on their own).


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestions.
Hm... there are too many possibilities ... I didn't know cooking can be this complicated.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Hi John and welcome to ChefTalk.

About your bland dish. There is nothing wrong with using canned clams. Judging from your description and recipe I can see a couple things to try next time. Realize that recipes are guidelines that don't always describe the cooking process.
Linguine with clams and white wine is all about flavor. You're in command of the flavor, not the recipe. Saute that garlic in butter and olive oil until fragrant, but don't brown the garlic. Now add the herbs. Dry herbs should be added before so they have time to disseminate their flavor. Add the white wine and bring it to a simmer. Your "after a while" comment comes to light here. Allow that white wine to continue to simmer and evaporate, until you've cooked off almost half of the wine. This is where the flavor comes in. Add in the canned clams with their juice. Season with salt and pepper. You should see a remarkable difference.
I also agree with the comment about the lemon juice. The old idea that lemon juice pairs well with seafood has been shown to be not as good as was once thought. Try the recipe again....and remember that recipes are guidelines.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

What kind of white wine did you use? There are a few white wines that I don't like to cook with as I feel they are too light bodied and light flavored, the main one being Pinot Grigio. I just find it lacking in so much flavor that unless I really, really reduce it, it doesn't provide much flavor.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't think your alone in not getting your Clam sauce recipe full of flavor. I think one problem is sauce to pasta ratio. With the pasta coming right out of the pasta water it really sucks up the sauce. You want this, but you also want to make sure the sauce has a lot of flavor and it's still a bit soupy. I would get some bottled clam juice, use fresh garlic and make sure it's enough to flavor that sauce. Canned clams IMHO aren't real great. Just think of what flavors you want to taste in the sauce and increase the amount. Just because this is a Clam sauce recipe doesn't mean it's the right amounts or even good. I never have a problem if my pasta dish has to much sauce. I do have a problem if I don't have enough........Good Luck........ChefBillyB


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Chefross you get the prize, "Season with salt and pepper." I would use white pepper.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

pete said:


> What kind of white wine did you use? There are a few white wines that I don't like to cook with as I feel they are too light bodied and light flavored, the main one being Pinot Grigio. I just find it lacking in so much flavor that unless I really, really reduce it, it doesn't provide much flavor.


I actually used Pinot Grigio. Which white wine would you recommend?
Thanks.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

chefross said:


> Hi John and welcome to ChefTalk.
> 
> About your bland dish. There is nothing wrong with using canned clams. Judging from your description and recipe I can see a couple things to try next time. Realize that recipes are guidelines that don't always describe the cooking process.
> Linguine with clams and white wine is all about flavor. You're in command of the flavor, not the recipe. Saute that garlic in butter and olive oil until fragrant, but don't brown the garlic. Now add the herbs. Dry herbs should be added before so they have time to disseminate their flavor. Add the white wine and bring it to a simmer. Your "after a while" comment comes to light here. Allow that white wine to continue to simmer and evaporate, until you've cooked off almost half of the wine. This is where the flavor comes in. Add in the canned clams with their juice. Season with salt and pepper. You should see a remarkable difference.
> I also agree with the comment about the lemon juice. The old idea that lemon juice pairs well with seafood has been shown to be not as good as was once thought. Try the recipe again....and remember that recipes are guidelines.


Thanks. I figure the step order and having the right amount each ingredient could making a world of difference but from my experience finding the right balance of flavor can be pretty difficult. For a newbie, it can take sometimes and lots of cooking so I guess there is no other ways. I also think the clam sauce coming from the can is probably not the most flavorful either. Maybe I should get a few bottles of clam sauce which hopefully should make things a bit easy as far as adding flavor.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

You are finishing your pasta in the sauce as well, I hope? The pasta needs to absorb the sauce in order to flavor the noodles...that is what that whole dish is about. If you are just pouring your sauce over the cooked noodles, you are doing it 100% wrong. 

And yes, there is nothing "wrong" with using canned clams, but you'll get much, much better flavor with fresh.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

someday said:


> You are finishing your pasta in the sauce as well, I hope? The pasta needs to absorb the sauce in order to flavor the noodles...that is what that whole dish is about. If you are just pouring your sauce over the cooked noodles, you are doing it 100% wrong.
> 
> And yes, there is nothing "wrong" with using canned clams, but you'll get much, much better flavor with fresh.


Actually I am not sure about pouring the pasta the sauce at the end vs. pouring the sauce to the pasta. I think there is pros and cons to both approach. I actually favor pouring the sauce to the pasta.

After the pasta finished cooking, there is a bit too much moisture in the pasta that can dilute the flavor of the sauce. Therefore I would prefer to keep them separated.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

John Swift said:


> Actually I am not sure about pouring the pasta the sauce at the end vs. pouring the sauce to the pasta. I think there is pros and cons to both approach. I actually favor pouring the sauce to the pasta.
> 
> After the pasta finished cooking, there is a bit too much moisture in the pasta that can dilute the flavor of the sauce. Therefore I would prefer to keep them separated.


Well, then you are 100% wrong and that is a big reason why your pasta was no good.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

someday said:


> Well, then you are 100% wrong and that is a big reason why your pasta was no good.


Spot on...learn to cook the pasta to al dente and use a set of tongs to move it to the pan holding simmering sauce.
The pasta, being slightly firm, has room to absorb the sauce and pick up extra flavor.

mimi


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

You can vary the recipe any way you want (less oil, less/more garlic, no tomatoes, etc) but the basic technique is described and demonstrated here by Mario Batali. I would recommend something very similar to what he does here.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

someday said:


> You can vary the recipe any way you want (less oil, less/more garlic, no tomatoes, etc) but the basic technique is described and demonstrated here by Mario Batali. I would recommend something very similar to what he does here.
> 
> Someday, I didn't see you drop the mic and walk off stage. Thats the fun part when your 100% right.......


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I saw the mic drop at post 13, and again at post 15.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

brianshaw said:


> I saw the mic drop at post 13, and again at post 15.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

John Swift said:


> I actually used Pinot Grigio. Which white wine would you recommend?
> Thanks.


I like drinking pinot grigio, rarely use it for cooking. Usually I go with dry vermouth or a sauvignon blanc.

mjb.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Chardonnay, 100%. No question.


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

Noilly Prat or Martini (vermouth) is actually great for this dish.

Or just use "white". I find that the wine blend called "white" is usually pretty awesome for cooking. Seems to give the right balance of flavours every time.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

When it comes to wine and cooking I usually prefer to use a chardonnay-most often a non-oaked chardonnay like Chablis- or a really dry Riesling. Vermouth is another great suggestion although it does change the flavor profile of the dish somewhat, but not in a bad way. They both have a good amount of acidity and a bolder flavor that really comes through.

As to the issue of tossing your pasta with the sauce or just putting the sauce over the pasta, all the other posters are correct, finishing your pasta in the sauce will help bring more flavor to the dish. And don't worry about that bit of added moisture as the pasta will re-absorb some of that and the starch on the outside will also add just a hint of thickening. The other question, if you are serving pasta and sauce separately, is, are you rinsing your pasta between cooking and serving? If so, that is a big no-no as it washes both flavor and starch away.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Ah linguini alla vongole, one of my favorite dishes to cook. It’s one of those dishes that more ingredients is not the best route to more flavor. Simple dishes like this rely entirely on good ingredients and great technique to pull off. 

There are many good recipes and they’re all good because they’re all the same. Olive oil, butter, garlic, chili flakes, wine (I prefer vermouth), parsley and salt/pepper. There is no place for dried herbs here, they muddy the flavors. But one very important ingredient always left off the list but just as important as all the others is pasta water. It’s everyting. It takes the dish to another level. 

Even though this is a quick dish to make, it does take some time to develop the flavors in the beginning. Here are some tips that work for me.

I like to slice the garlic, and cook it very slowly in the oil. Put good olive oil in a cold pan and add the sliced garlic and chili flakes. Put it on very low heat for about 10 minutes turning the garlic slices occasionally. Do not let them burn. If they burn it’s over. Now remove the garlic and set it aside. It will be crisp like like chips. 

Now add the clams. Yes, real clams are preferable but if all you have is canned then add them and their juice. I would just warm them through and scoop those out as well because they’re already cooked and if you cook them more they become chewy. Now add the wine to the sauce and continue to reduce by almost half. Don’t let it be watery. 

Cook the noodles in hard boiling salty water. I like to cook it in only a little water so that it gets starchy. 

Meanwhile add a knob of butter to the sauce and some fresh parsley. That’s it. Now take the tongues and add the noodles directly from their bath into the sauce along with a ladle full of pasta water. Let the noodles cook in the sauce and stir the clams back in. Serve immediately and garnish with the garlic chips, freshly ground black pepper, and a drizzle of fresh extra virgin olive oil. My mouth is watering as we speak.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

I appreciate all the feedbacks and will try a few more variations this weekend. But as far as finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated, I personally prefer keeping the clam sauce and pasta separate ... I guess it's just my own preference.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

There are some fantastic suggestions in this thread and in my humble opinion, they are all 100% spot on.

However, judging from the OP's response to some of the suggestions, particularly the one about finishing the pasta in the sauce, I am getting the impression he may not understand what it means to finish the pasta in the claim sauce.

@flipflopgirl hit the nail on the head, IMO. Cook the pasta until just under al dente, drain it and then toss it into the pan that has the sauce over low to medium heat. Toss the pasta in the sauce until al dente. Clam sauce made with white wine or other liquids does not need any pasta water to coat the pasta or finish cooking it. That's too much salt, IMO.

Here are some other tips.

- Use fresh herbs whenever possible. Their flavors and aromas are far superior to dried herbs.

- Forget using lemon.

- Make sure your pasta water is as salty as the ocean. My guess is this the heart of the problem.

- Chardonnay (unoaked), Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Gris or just about any white wine with a low alcohol content (no higher than 13%) and high acidity are excellent choices to use when making sauces for seafood. Acidity is your best friend when making these types of sauces. White wines with higher alcohol content tend to have lower acidity levels, not to mention it will take longer to cook off the alcohol and that extra cooking time could negatively impact your final product.

- **do not use anything labeled cooking wine** If you do, you can't drink a glass or two of it while you cook. You can, but, you won't like it.  Seriously, tho, cooking wines tend to add salt and when they reduce, they tend to make the dish too salty.

- Reserve a handful or two of your fresh herbs and add them when you add the pasta to the sauce. The fresh herbs will help mop up the sauce and really kick your dish into orbit.

- Try experimenting with different herbs such as cilantro, thyme, dill etc. Try different wines as well.

Other than that, keep playing around with your recipe. The journey is half the fun.

Cheers!


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## Pat Pat (Sep 26, 2017)

John Swift said:


> ...as far as finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated, I personally prefer keeping the clam sauce and pasta separate ... I guess it's just my own preference.


I know many chefs that like to dictate how something should be eaten to optimize your experience and enjoyment of that dish.

Personally, I don't usually care how people eat their food or in which order they do. I believe that a good dish is good no matter how you eat it.

However, it is not the case of personal preferences here.

It is okay for some recipes to top your pasta with the sauce just before eating (e.g. Bolognese, Alfredo, etc.). It is even possible with something like Carbonara and Pesto.

But you really cannot do that with clam pasta. It would be like making a French toast by frying plain bread and then pour the egg custard over it on your plate. It's never going to taste the way it should.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

The discussion on this subject pointed out something to me - it has been a LONG time since I made it! I will have to remedy that. Maybe the March challenge will be pasta, or shellfish, or Italy...

mjb.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

John Swift said:


> I appreciate all the feedbacks and will try a few more variations this weekend. But as far as finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated, I personally prefer keeping the clam sauce and pasta separate ... I guess it's just my own preference.


Never go to Italy. You will hate it there. I'm curious as to why you reject the universal practice of marrying the pasta with the sauce. If there is a good reason I'd like to know it.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

koukouvagia said:


> Never go to Italy. You will hate it there. I'm curious as to why you reject the universal practice of marrying the pasta with the sauce. If there is a good reason I'd like to know it.


I prefer going to France over Italy or Germany ... Finishing the pasta in the sauce is more tricky as you have to get the timing right and the pasta portion right. Too much pasta in the clam sauce would ruin it. Besides my problem is trying to figure out how to make the sauce flavor to taste good. Once I am able to get it right, I think the rest is easy whether finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

John Swift said:


> I prefer going to France over Italy or Germany ... Finishing the pasta in the sauce is more tricky as you have to get the timing right and the pasta portion right. Too much pasta in the clam sauce would ruin it. Besides my problem is trying to figure out how to make the sauce flavor to taste good. Once I am able to get it right, I think the rest is easy whether finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated.


Sigh. Okay.

The clam sauce has nothing in it to thicken it and help make it stick. Some olive oil, maybe some butter (I personally wouldn't use butter here, but no big deal) will help thicken slightly, but mostly you have a thin, watery style sauce. If you simply pour the sauce over the noddles in the bowl, the sauce will pool in the bottom and essentially run through the noodles.

If you cook them together for a couple minutes, some starch will release from the pasta, as well as the pasta water that comes with it, and help thicken the sauce slightly. This allows the sauce to "cling" to the pasta to coat it more evenly. The pasta will also absorb some of the sauce, so the pasta takes on the flavor. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON NOT TO DO IT.

I urge you to watch that video I linked to above (or any of the thousands more on youtube). I really disagree with Pat Pat above who said that some pastas are OK not cooked with the sauce. I can't think of any pasta dish that isn't 1000x better when finished together. They need time to become 1 dish. They harmonize with each other and become more than the sum of their parts.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

someday said:


> I urge you to watch that video I linked to above (or any of the thousands more on youtube). I really disagree with Pat Pat above who said that some pastas are OK not cooked with the sauce. I can't think of any pasta dish that isn't 1000x better when finished together. They need time to become 1 dish. They harmonize with each other and become more than the sum of their parts.


While I understand your philosophy, I would like to keep them separated. But as I said, my problem is how to make the clam sauce tasty. The pasta is kind of a red herring. Whether finishing in the sauce or separated is not my beef.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

someday said:


> Sigh. Okay.
> .


« slaps forehead «


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

I am really having a hard time understanding why the OP refuses to see how such a basic fundamental, such as finishing the pasta in its sauce, is one of the reasons why his dish is so bland?? Did he not come here for some professional advice? Unless I am reading this thread incorrectly, every single pro that has commented has unanimously agreed that finishing the pasta in the sauce was part of the solution to making the dish better. Yet, the OP refuses to accept that painfully simple advice.

With that said, why, then, John Swift, did you come here asking for advice if you refuse to take it? The pasta is not a "red herring." Marrying the pasta with the sauce is one of the basic fundamentals to improving the overall flavor of the dish. Is that not what you asked for??

You said: "*Finishing the pasta in the sauce is more tricky as you have to get the timing right....." 
*
This is not true at all. Finishing pasta in the sauce is fundamentally one of the most simple cooking procedures in the kitchen. I think boiling water is the only thing that's easier. Just add the pasta to the sauce and swish it around until the pasta is done to your liking.

You said: _*"and the pasta portion right."*_

For long pasta, you want 4oz per person. A box of long pasta is 16oz. The math is straight forward. If you know how many people you are cooking for, then, you know how much pasta to make. If you know how much pasta to make, then, you should know how much sauce to make. If you do not know this, then, improving your clam sauce before learning this is putting the cart before the horse.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Well nobody coming here for advice should feel forced to take that advice. We’re not curing cancer and taste levels can vary from person to person. I once also believed that this small detail didn’t matter until I tried it. But I spent a lifetime eating my mom’s pasta in which the sauce was a topping to sticky noodles. You live you learn and you grow. Cooking just happens to be something I’m passionate about but not everyone cares so much about it. It’s good the OP wants to make a tasty sauce and there are some good tips. I’m sure his sauce will be much better because of it but yes, it will not be as good as you or I would expect it to be. If he’s ok with it we should be ok with it. I’m just glad people are out there cooking.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

sgsvirgil said:


> I am really having a hard time understanding why the OP refuses to see how such a basic fundamental, such as finishing the pasta in its sauce, is one of the reasons why his dish is so bland?? Did he not come here for some professional advice? Unless I am reading this thread incorrectly, every single pro that has commented has unanimously agreed that finishing the pasta in the sauce was part of the solution to making the dish better. Yet, the OP refuses to accept that painfully simple advice.
> 
> With that said, why, then, John Swift, did you come here asking for advice if you refuse going to take it? The pasta is not a "red herring." Marrying the pasta with the sauce is one of the basic fundamentals to improving the overall flavor of the dish. Is that not what you asked for??
> 
> ...


I am not disagreeing or refusing to take some useful advice here. My whole purpose is to understand how to make the clam sauce tasty. Once I know how to do that, then finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated is a matter of course. I mean I am sure there will be day when I may finding finishing the pasta in the sauce as something I would like to try just as there will be other occasions where I will keep them separated. But as I have made my point above, my problem is to learn adding flavor to the clam source. Finishing the dish with the pasta is a bit trivial at least that's how I think.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like a hard head. I enjoy this forum and cooking to me is really fun even if it could be quite a costly hobby. I find that my grocery bill is like three times as much when I need to put together something fancy vs. just regular cooking.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

koukouvagia said:


> I once also believed that this small detail didn't matter until I tried it. But I spent a lifetime eating my mom's pasta in which the sauce was a topping to sticky noodles.


If your mom was serving you the sauce over sticky noodles, at least she wasn't rinsing the noodles, which is what my mom always did, yielding a dish where the sauce was pretty much guaranteed to slide right off of the pasta!!!!!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

pete said:


> If your mom was serving you the sauce over sticky noodles, at least she wasn't rinsing the noodles, which is what my mom always did, yielding a dish where the sauce was pretty much guaranteed to slide right off of the pasta!!!!!


Mine too. Mine even broke the spaghetti in half. All of that seem to have been typical back in the dark ages.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

John Swift said:


> I am not disagreeing or refusing to take some useful advice here. My whole purpose is to understand how to make the clam sauce tasty. Once I know how to do that, then finishing the pasta in the sauce or keeping them separated is a matter of course. I mean I am sure there will be day when I may finding finishing the pasta in the sauce as something I would like to try just as there will be other occasions where I will keep them separated. But as I have made my point above, my problem is to learn adding flavor to the clam source. Finishing the dish with the pasta is a bit trivial at least that's how I think.


The point that we are trying to make is that it is not as trivial as you think. Look at it this way; have you ever had a steak that wasn't seasoned before it was cooked? If you have then you know that, even if you season it after, it is never quite as flavorful, and to achieve anything close to being as flavorful you have to use way more seasoning than if you seasoned it beforehand. It's the same deal between finishing your pasta in your sauce and just spooning it over the pasta. If you want it to taste better then ultimately you will need to add a bit more of everything and reduce it further to bump up the flavor of the sauce to compensate for the bland noodles. But by doing this you will sacrifice that brightness of flavor for a more cooked flavor. Ultimately, it is your decision. You have made your intentions known and those offering advice will just have to deal with it, but you will only be able to take your dish so far if you only follow half of the advice given here. It will be acceptable, but it will never be great.


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## John Swift (Feb 26, 2018)

pete said:


> It will be acceptable, but it will never be great.


Sometimes two great's can make a wrong. (I understand if you delete this post).


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

John Swift said:


> Sometimes two great's can make a wrong. (I understand if you delete this post).


Seriously? The best advise I can offer at this point is for you to try the various techniques suggested and come back with an assessment of what worked and didn't work. Take the open-minded analytical approach! Capitalize on the senior-level advise you've received.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

This guy has been offered a couple centuries worth of combined professional chefs experience and decades of home cooks that mostly agree and won't take it. Let him go back to his tasteless watery pasta.


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

koukouvagia said:


> Well nobody coming here for advice should feel forced to take that advice. We're not curing cancer and taste levels can vary from person to person. I once also believed that this small detail didn't matter until I tried it. But I spent a lifetime eating my mom's pasta in which the sauce was a topping to sticky noodles. You live you learn and you grow. Cooking just happens to be something I'm passionate about but not everyone cares so much about it. It's good the OP wants to make a tasty sauce and there are some good tips. I'm sure his sauce will be much better because of it but yes, it will not be as good as you or I would expect it to be. If he's ok with it we should be ok with it. I'm just glad people are out there cooking.


Indeed. But, my point is he should not be debating the validity of the advice. That's all.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

chefbuba said:


> This guy has been offered a couple centuries worth of combined professional chefs experience and decades of home cooks that mostly agree and won't take it. Let him go back to his tasteless watery pasta.


I was just like that at 31. It's something many of us got over once we got over.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

sgsvirgil said:


> Indeed. But, my point is he should not be debating the validity of the advice. That's all.


I don't think he did. It's just not important to him and that's ok. Know in your heart of hearts that any chef would agree with you.


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## drirene (Dec 30, 2015)

Add a squirt of lemon juice. Then do everything else suggested.
My 2 cents.


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