# Why do some of you knock going to culinary school?



## savorychef (Dec 28, 2011)

Hello, I am new to this forum and it is very interesting. Please, I hope noone is upset by my opening question. Since I have been lurking here I have noticed a topic that has come up or discussed, that is the topic of going to culinary school. Please, if I may, let me give a little background of myself. I have always loved to cook, at the age of seven my mom worked nights(single parent) and I would cook for my brothers, yes me 7yrs old in a kitchen. After high school(17yrs old), I thought about going to culinary school but didn't because everyone said that "chefs don't make any money" so I went to school and became an aircraft mechanic......fast forward to now, I am 39yrs old....and guess what I am not making any money as an aircraft mechanic.....to make matters worse I don't have a passion for it. Yes I still have a passion for cooking....I do it now everyday....well just about....I am raising 5 boys(6,11,13,16 & 17yrs) and with a lovely wife that loves to eat to boot and I enjoy it....for me it is very very theraputic. At this point I don't care if I make $10hr as long as I get do something that gives me joy and that I have a passion for. I will be attending J&W in 2012 and I can't wait. I KNOW that the schooling will bring out so much more of my creativity. Yes I know it will be expensive, but I am going to be more than a sponge, there is so much I want to know and learn about foods and cooking, I think the teachers are going to run the other way when they see me coming....just kidding!! Well I am really sorry if I ranted on, but I just had to get this out of my system. Thanks.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

_I don't knock them > If thats what you want fine. However as a former instructor in a culinary school. I can tell you that in my mind I can't justify any young person spending up to 44000.00 to go to school that when they come out they will be lucky to get a position for more then 14.00 per hour. You start your life owing money that you borrowed to go to school._

_Get a job in any decent full service rest. hotel, or catering facility and you will learn more in a year then you would in school in 2 years plus you are getting paid. Remember CULINARY SCHOOLS ARE FOR PROFIT FIRST . They are a business like any other business.many of them paint visions of sugarplums in students heads. It will take you at least 8 years or more of quality learning to become a Sous Chef and another 5 to Chef. You must put in your time.. Good Luck_


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I do not "knock" culinary schools, they exist to train students in the basics of a vocational trade.

I *do* question whether spending $20,000 to $60,000 to learn the fundamentals of a trade where, for the first several years of employment, one will be lucky to earn $20,000 to $30,000 per year *gross*, especially when one can earn the same amount simply by getting a job in

a restaurant or food service facility and learning the same skills while getting paid.

Do the math, $40,000 @ 7.0% for 7 years is $233.33 *per month* or $2,800.00 per year, about 10%-15% of the expected gross income, closer to 15%-20% of the net take home pay.

Which would you rather do?

Go to work now for $20k gross, or
Pay $40k now (or borrow it) and go to work in two years for $17k


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I have several reasons.

Culinary school does NOT make you a Chef or a cook. It makes you a culinary school graduate

Graduates with no previous experience will graduate with no working experience. It is the working experience that employers are looking for.

We've been through the issue that the industry pays peanuts. Passion only goes so far. When you bring home sub $2,000 monthly paycheques with dick-all benefits and no job security, your Spouse will start to question your decision.

_The only time passion outranks money is when you are self employed. _ Remember this.

There are no standards-no benchmarks-no recognized qualifications-- for what constitutes a cook, and what constitutes a Chef: what they should know, what they should be capable of. Because of this, there are no pay scales to base a salary on.

Please, please, pretty please, work in a restaurant for a couple of months before you write that cheque for the Culinary school


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

So as you can see , none of us really knock culinary institutions, We just question them. Its strictly your decision and your life.


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## savorychef (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks to all that responded. I have worked in a restaurant, I was a bartender for one year, it was cantonese. It was the best(fun)  job I ever had. I went in around 1pm and got out usually at 2am....later if it was around a holiday. I worked closely with the kitchen as a matter of fact, I had to go thru the kitchen to get to my station. Again for me it really isn't about the money. I will however take into consideration the cost of culinary school....so far I have gotten a pell grant for 5k and will be applying for every scholarship I can find....I don't plan on finishing school and being in tons of debt. My ultimate goal is eventually to be self employed. Thanks again.


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## garrow (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm actually planning on attending the CIA campus down in San Antonio come next fall. By that time, I'll have 2 years experience in kitchens in the town I'm living in currently. The good thing about this school, is that El Sueno offers a scholarship that covers the majority of tuition costs, plus I've got the GI Bill backing the rest. With the school not costing me anything in student debt and having had real world experience before attending, would getting a degree from the CIA be well worth the time invested? I plan to continue working in restaurants while going to school as well, mind you.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. Here is what I said in another thread on this same topic:


> I am a CIA guy too. I probably would not go there again today. It's really very expensive. Today there are all kinds of fantastic Community Colleges / Jr. Colleges / Trade Schools available. You should do yourself and whoever else will be helping you pay, a big service and check these out.


Now after reading the last two(2) posts, I would say that if you've got the money ... knock your socs off. Go for it. I too went with _GI Bill_ $$$. The best good stuff I've gotten from the CIA is all in my head, stuff I know, that which makes me do what I do as a chef. Yes, I said _CHEF_. It's only a vocabulary word, no different than _COOK_, as long you don't have any linguistic or semantic difficulties. I learned technical skills at school, but I really had to _learn_ them out on the job, or practicing on my own. The CIA is a cool place. I'm glad I went. If I was paying with out of my own pocket money though, I'd look at a different venue.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

savorychef said:


> ...My ultimate goal is eventually to be self employed. ..


One of the *major* purposes of a degree/certificate/diploma is to convince *others* that you have the knowledge to do what they need done.

If your goal is self-employment, then you have little reason to convince others of anything! So the need for a degree/certificate/diploma is significantly reduced, /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gifBill Gates and Steve Jobs come to mind quickly/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

If your goal is self-employment, knowledge of:

business law
economics
finance
accounting
personnel management
is *far* more important than attaining journeyman or master trade skills.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

savorychef said:


> Thanks to all that responded. I have worked in a restaurant, I was a bartender for one year, it was cantonese.


Bartending and cooking have very little in common, even if you did walk through the kitchen.

No, I really mean working in a kitchen: Veg prep, cleaning out fryers, helping out at the dishpit, plating up banquet plates, freezing your hiney off in the walk-in freezer with the Chef with a clipboard in your hands doing inventory after work.

School is only one half of the equation, experience is the other. You wouldn't take a car with only a speedometer and no gas guage on a long road trip, would you?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Sorry my friend, but this is stuff any adult can learn in one(1) shift. 


> Veg prep, cleaning out fryers, helping out at the dishpit, plating up banquet plates, freezing your hiney off in the walk-in freezer with the Chef with a clipboard in your hands doing inventory after work.


Whether you're aware or not, bar-tenders do all kinds of _"prep"_, much like veg prep before their shifts. How much different is bar fruit than veggies? It shouldn't take more than one(1) shift to learn. Cleaning out the fryers is something you watch once, and you're an expert. Helping out at the dishpit is something your mother should have taught you. I always have the instructions pasted up in plain sight if you didn't; in English and Spanish. Plating up banquet plates is something for trained monkeys. You watch what the others do, you ask a few questions, you listen to what you're told, you get the job done. Inventory is inventory; steaks, potatoes, beer, wine, whiskey. You either do it in the bar or the walk-in. If it's cold, put on a jacket.

This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens. The stuff I got from the CIA is stuff very few people I've worked with know. I give that to the people I'm working for or with. That's what makes me the chef I am.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

This is a set-up,right?

How much different is slicing up some citrus fruit than dicing an onion? 

Slicing a half a sack of onions for Fr. Onion Soup?  Dicing up tomatoes for salsa?  Carrots for stir fry? Peeling and quartering melons? How to cut spuds for hashbrowns without half going in the garbage?  Someone who never held a sharp knife in his hand before and now with an hour's worth of instruction can get veg prep ready for sunday brunch?  Really?

Cleaning out a fryer?  How to screw on the drain pipe? How to boil it out?  What happens if the china-cap is too small to sit on the rim of the draining pot?  How to dispose of old oil properly? What happens when there is just a teensy bit of water in the kettle before you dump the hot oil back in?  Why you shouldn't use a pot with a loose handle, or a pail with a wobbly bail to drain the fryer into?  Meh, show the dude once and watch him french fry his feet,  and you get to fill out the worker's comp. forms, eh?

Dishpit. Evey one of my new hires gets at least an hour worth of instruction.  How to pre rinse plates, how not to hose down dirty sheetpans and rosting pans full of congealed grease down the drain, but to scrape it off with box tops and toss it in the garbage, how to make sure the wash water is clean, how to make sure the wash and rinse arms are clean and the orifices are not plugged up, how to wash cutlery properly  so the server doesn't grab it by the "business end" . Where to put the 1/9th inserts, keep all of the parts of the robot-coupe together,  not to throw out the steam table separator bars in the garbage, not to leave water in the hollow handles of the frying pans, not to hang up wet ladles over the fryer...

Basically a dishmachine is not magic, what goes in dirty will come out dirty, albeit sanitized dirty.

All this instruction in a few minutes? Or is it just assumed?

O.P.'s got three growing kids plus a spouse to look after.  Grant or no grant, he'd better work in a kitchen for a few months before he signs on the dotted line.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

ICEMAN 

Dont know how long you hae been in the game or what you have been exposed to, but You work with me in the war zones for 3 monthes, and it's the equiv. of CIA for 2 years. Not only will you learn how to do it ,but the theory behind it. As you said, if you had to pay for it with your own money ,you might have pursued other options. $$44000.00 is way to much to pay. You are mot going to medical =school and upon completion wont be able to earn $$125-200,00 per year . You will be lucky if you get $15.00 per hour. Where is the logic here. Also I knew plenty of guys out of culinary schools with DIPLOMAS and CERTIFICATES who cant hack it in a pro kitchen  and went into other vocations. In fact when I taught schoolin NY 8 out of 100 grads 10 years later were still in trade. Many went into food sales but then you do not have to pay 44000. to do that either. I have been at this game for more then 50 years and it has not changed that much re. staff other then Osha and some labor laws. Kitchen people are the lowest rung on the ladder, and in most cases treated as such.


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## steelybob (Dec 4, 2009)

A couple things not mentioned as well:

- Schooling in culinary is really no different than many other vocations. For example the design industry (architecture, graphics, fashion, interior, etc) faces the exact same dynamics: expensive school that doesn't predetermine success and is far outwieghed by industry experience.

- One of the most important benefits of school (and some would argue the *only* benefit) is the networking, not the education. Ask any graduate of any major MBA school (eg, Harvard Business School) and they'll tell you.

- Chefs don't want to see more chefs. Chefs don't need chefs, they need cooks. They are surrounded by bad cooks and other food workers. And the last thing culinary school teaches you is how to be a good cook. Most chefs see other chefs as competition and the last thing this world needs more of - especially in an already way too populated marketplace. When all chefs see coming out of school are people who leave the industry immediately (50%+), bad cooks (let's say 30%) or competition (let's say 5%), what attitudes are likely to develop? And are those attitudes unjustified?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Look _*foodpump*_, your reply only supported what I previously said. Slicing onions, dicing up tomatoes, carrots for stir fry, peeling and quartering melons and/or cutting potatoes for hash browns is all day-care summer-camp skills. I think there is a Boy Scout Merit Badge for that. You've gotta know that stuff to get into a good school. Bar-tenders can usually pick that stuff up in an hour or two. Are they as clean and fast as pro-chefs? NO, probably not. But they get the job done acceptably well. The two(2) long paragraphs you typed on fryer cleaning and dish-pit work is another perfect point. In the _"REAL WORLD"_ it's no big deal. I show you how to do it, the directions are on the wall. The fryer and/or dish-pit are the same. I'll show you once, and the directions are on the wall. If you screw it up, everyone else involved will let you know about it. Kitchen people are not stupid. They learn things. _DUH._ Yes, all of this instruction is in one(1) shift. I wouldn't hire someone that stupid who couldn't learn. All of this stuff here is trained monkey work. This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens.

_*EdB ~*_ I've _"been in the game"_ for over thirty(30) years, I actually started cooking in 1966, but I was only 4-yo at the time, so that doesn't really count. Working for you may just be one of the greatest experiences of life. You are not however, the big-name professional geniuses that go through the CIA at any given time to do guest-instructing. I got to learn from and study under 50-plus famous world-renowned chefs. I kinda think that just might be a little different than working for you for 3 months, maybe. I don't now, or have ever in the past, challenge anything else you said. It's a lot of $$$ for a $10-$12/hr job. No argument there. A _"CIA"_ tag won't keep your job longer than a week or so, maybe even less. I do know that with the recommendations that came with it got me in a lot of doors. Of course it didn't hurt at all that I don't suck.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

What I don't understand is all you folks who insist on thinking culinary school is different than any other trade or career path.

School is expensive, no matter what your choosen field. And starting pays are comparatively low in most fields as well. But I don't hear anyone saying don't go to school if you want to be a reporter, or a school teacher, or a businessman. And the idea that culinary arts people are the only ones who graduate with unrealistic expectations is just silly. When I graduated from journalism school, for instance, many of my classmates suffered from the idea that just because they had a J degree the New York Times was anxious to hire them. That's comparable to graduating culinary school and expecting to be named sous chef at a Michelin starred restaurant.

Culinary arts are one of the few jobs in which viable careers are possible strictly with on-the-job training. But the question is, how much easier is it to get hired, for an entry level job, if you have a degree but no experience? I guarantee that, if nothing else, it's a tie breaker.

I wonder, too, how many top chefs do not have formal education in the field? If it wasn't important, why are those who are "self taught" pointed out with a sense of awe? When celebrity chefs are introduced, it's rare that anyone says, "he graduated from CIA, or Cordon Blue, or The French Institute." But if he or she didn't go to culinary school, a point of it is always made. The fact is, we do see lack of formal training as special.

And let's get real about the relationship between entry-level pay and tuition costs. When my son graduated with an MBA, despite scholarships that helped tremendously, he was $160,000 in debt. His first job's salary was 35 grand.

So, yeah, if you want to compare starting at 35 grand to starting at 15, then culinary grads are underpaid. But what if you compare debt-to-income, a more realistic way of comparing? Let's see: putting aside the scholarships (which would add another 50-60K to his actually costs), $160,000 is roughly 4.5 times $35,000. On the other hand, $44,000 is only 3 times $15,000. So, proportionately, the culinary arts grad is actually in better financial shape. And that's looking just at the highest tuition schools. There are a lot of them out there where tuition is a fraction of that.

Now let's look at all the other benefits of getting a degree. There's the opportunity to train under great chefs, either visitors or staff. There's the networking that results from knowing others in the field. There's the greater possibility of getting hired, in the first place, and moving up because you already have certain basic skills. Etc.

There is only one problem unique to culinary school versus other crafts and trades. Until recently, ads and recruiters did more than infer, they actually promised you would graduate as a chef. But the schools have been moving away from that position, lately, because of legal and other considerations.

There is one aspect about the culinary arts that is different, however. Thanks primarily to TV, far too many people have the idea that cooking professionally is much more glamourous than it actually is. While that's certainly not the fault of the schools, it's a reality that has to be considered. For that reason, my philosophy is that anyone considering culinary school should work in the field first; not so much for the skills to be learned, but to help them understand what a culinary career really is all about. If, after a year or two working in a restaurant or other food-service establishment, they still want to make a career of it, then it's time to think about culinary school.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

If culinary school were free (grants, rich Uncle, etc.) I'd be all over it.

In the early nineties a buddy and I looked into attending Western Culinary Institute in Portland, OR, before it made ties and changed to Le Cordon Bleu College of Culinary Arts.

We both were married with kids and had worked in the industry for a few years, starting as dishwashers and progressing to line cooks.

At that time the tuition was a mere 15k (hard to believe what kids are being charged nowadays for what can't be that much better of a program).

He qualified for 11k in grants and 4k in loans, I qualified for 11k in loans, no grants.

His decision was a no brainer, 4k in loans for a culinary education.

Mine was harder, 4k up front and then the rest of the 15k in debt.

He went, did well and ultimately moved his family there, where he worked in many great restaurants and now has a place of his own.

Me, I've pursued the hard knocks path and I admit that there may be holes in my knowledge, but I don't feel I'm far behind a culinary grad in knowledge, and definitely not in skill.

My friend still says he'd rather work with me than the local culinary grads (same school and another, newer one), and I know he's not blowing smoke.

There are some great people that both did and didn't follow the path of formal education, as there are culinary educated people that can/can't hack it in this field.

I see many of them here on these boards and I've worked with many, though in the latter case it is far more of those who aren't suited than those who are great.

In my opinion, there_ *is* _value in a culinary education, but it's not equal to what you're paying for it.

It's an even worse deal for those who end up not using it in their careers, and sad that they don't know it until they get out there and try it (which is a good argument for working in the industry before school).

For the few who come out of culinary school and do very well in this field, my belief is that they would've gotten there without school as well, though they would have to be somewhat intelligent in who they decide to work for. In the field as in school, you get out of it what you put in.

So, if school were free, I'd still go, and I'm an old fart. Any extra knowledge is good knowledge, and free knowledge is best.

But as it isn't free for most, and pays off as an investment for few, I find it hard to recommend it to but a select few.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. Just for fun ...................


Grant Achatz
David Adjey
Wilo Benet
John Besh
Richard Blais
Anthony Bourdain
David Burke
Anne Burrell
Andrew Carmellini
Michael Chiarello
Mike Colameco
Cat Cora
Dan Coudreaut
Marcel Desaulniers
Harold Dieterle

Rocco DiSpirito
Todd English
Steve Ells
Susan Feniger
Amanda Freitag
Duff Goldman
Ilan Hall
Hung Huynh
Vikas Khanna
Maciej Kuroń
Matthew Levin
Christina Machamer
Michael Mina

Rick Moonen
Sara Moulton
Hari Nayak
Ralph Pagano
Charlie Palmer
Michael Paré
Walter Scheib
Michael Smith
Kerry Simon
Michael Symon
Marcel Vigneron
Bryan Voltaggio
Heather West
Jake White
Roy Yamaguchi

_................... *ALL* CIA graduates. _

_Remember now ... this is only a fun fact. _


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

OK, for frame of reference, what is the total number of CIA graduates?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I've got no _"frame of reference"_. I checked out the CIA on the ever-famous _"Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"_, and these chefs were listed as _"Notable alumni"_. Does it make any difference?

The Culinary Institute of America - Wikipedia


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

deleted


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

While many (perhaps most) analogies are poor, Pete, this one doesn't hold water at all. If PHS was a school that specialized in basketball training, and had a long list of grads who made it playing professional ball, then you could compare the two, sort of. But it goes even deeper. How many professional basketball players, let alone stars, got there without first playing on a college team? and, before that, how many college players were recruited other than from high-school teams.

Professional sports is more akin to the European apprenticeship system than to the way we do it in the U.S.

_....what is the total number of CIA graduates?_

That's really a falacious argument. May as well ask: How many MBAs become CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, and use that as a recomendation against attending business school. How many nurses become chief of service? How many teachers become principles or district supervisors. How many journalists become editors of major metropolitan dailies.

The reality is, there is only so much room at the top. Those with talent and drive get there. And, proportionately, because of the sheer number of restaurants and other food service establishments, there's actually more opportunities to reach the top than in many other fields.

Here's an example. There are 7,000 restaurants in New York City. That means there are 7,000 chefs. There are only three metropolitan dailies, so that's three editor jobs. Maybe 20 hospitals, which means only a score of chiefs of nursing service. I have no idea how many high schools in the big apple. But, compared to the number of teachers, only a few principles---one for each of those schools.

I think the value of IceMan's posted list is that if we look at it, and comparable lists for Le Cordon Blue, the Arts Institutes, Johnson & Wales, etc., it turns out that the vast majority of name chefs in this country did, indeed, attend culinary school.

This does not mean that just because you attend you will become a great chef. But graduating from culinary school is part of almost every great chef's background.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

On second thought, deleted.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

IceMan said:


> Look _*foodpump*_, your reply only supported what I previously said. Slicing onions, dicing up tomatoes, carrots for stir fry, peeling and quartering melons and/or cutting potatoes for hash browns is all day-care summer-camp skills. I think there is a Boy Scout Merit Badge for that. You've gotta know that stuff to get into a good school. Bar-tenders can usually pick that stuff up in an hour or two. Are they as clean and fast as pro-chefs? NO, probably not. But they get the job done acceptably well. The two(2) long paragraphs you typed on fryer cleaning and dish-pit work is another perfect point. In the _"REAL WORLD"_ it's no big deal. I show you how to do it, the directions are on the wall. The fryer and/or dish-pit are the same. I'll show you once, and the directions are on the wall. If you screw it up, everyone else involved will let you know about it. Kitchen people are not stupid. They learn things. _DUH._ Yes, all of this instruction is in one(1) shift. I wouldn't hire someone that stupid who couldn't learn. All of this stuff here is trained monkey work. This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens.


Yeah yeah,whatever. Someone who has never held a Chef's knife properly before, can do veg prep in an hour. Uh-huh. Hey if you say so, then it is.

I will tell you one thing about your take on fryers, I have filled out Worker's comp forms. I was "found guilty" of not properly instructing employees on fryer safety, guy who fried his feet was doing it properly for 8 mths, then he screwed up. I got dinged with higher permiums. Hey some one has to be responsible...

People are stupid, period. Show me something idiot-proof, and they will invent a better idiot.

Train up your staff properly, get him/her to sign a statement that acknowledges that they understand the training, and at lest your butt is covered. Paperwork, just like working in a union shop, eh?

Someday, you too will learn this..

I hope......j


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW *KYH*. That is some serious consideration of my post. But just between you and me ...................... _I really didn't think that deep into it myself._ I just kinda thought that it was sorta cool that a bunch of famous-enough name chefs went there. Your explanation sure sounds a lot better than mine though. My name however, is nowhere to be found, being that I am not at all _"Notable"_ and far from _"Famous"_ _(notorious maybe, but that doesn't count)_.

OK. On another topic ... _Now I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'._ I've worked in some pretty big kitchens, with some pretty serious turnover of product every night, but I've never ... *ever* ... been stupid enough ... or that far off the reservation, to ever tell someone, or even allow someone to clean out a hot fryer. So _NO_, I've got no historical experience filling out Workers-Comp forms. Maybe I'm not familiar with the fryers you all use way up north, I'll give you that. But I am familiar enough to not be that stupid. _"Not getting people hurt"_ is a standard in every union I've ever been part of. I guess I'm lucky like that. Also ... you just might be really surprised someday when you hire real bar-tenders that know how to hold a chef's knife. Funny thing though, it really isn't all that tough.

_*This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens.*_


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah, well being this far up north (2 hrs from Seattle) the oil gets all congealed when cold and doesn't filter well, hence the hot oil straining.

Wishing everyone all the best for 2012


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree, everyone thinks its show business.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

CIA requires that you work in the industry prior to attending.  smart, oh so smart...

I've had the pleasure to work with 5 chefs off that list and numerous others not on the list but CIA alum.....and more from other institutions....and numerous amazing chefs/culinarians who went to the school of hard knocks. Schooling gives you a jump start, hopefully instills good habits.  But, on the flip side for many it's recipe that restrains their creativeness.....if it's taught as gospel one way then they don't question it.    

Way cool how chefs at the top of their game take the time out to hand write thank you notes.  

PS. I went to school for dietetics dropped it after a semister when I figured out it wasn't about food......went on into Early Childhood Ed/working at a classical French restaurant/marketing firm.....has served me well in and out of the kitchen.


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## thomas rhee (May 26, 2011)

For every great chef that came out of a cooking school, there are many who never attended.  Some of the world's top chefs never went to cooking school but trained and apprenticed at great restaurants.

Some examples?

- Mario Batali (attended but dropped out)

- Ferran Adria

- Joel Robuchon

- Thomas Keller

- David Waltuck (attended but dropped out)

- David Bouley

- Michael Romano

- Michael Chiarello

- Wolfgang Puck

- Alice Waters

- Charlie Trotter

- Tom Colicchio

- Daniel Boulud

- Gordon Ramsay

- Laurent Tourondel

The list goes on.  Even though I went to culinary school, if I had to do it all over again, I would've just started working and skipped school.  Why?  Even though, culinary school gave me basic insights, I learned more in my first 3 months of working than what school had taught me.  Also, each chef has their own distinctive styles of doing something as basic as making chicken stock.  For instance, when I used to work for Chef Waltuck at Chanterelle, his chicken stock excluded celery and substituted garlic instead, since he felt that garlic sweetens the longer you cook versus celery which becomes bitter the longer you cook.  However, Chef Tourondel sticks with a basic mirepoix with his chicken stock and is more traditional.

Having said that, I think culinary school is an option that should be considered as people are different and for some aspiring chefs, it may be important while for others it may be a waste of time.  My personal opinion is that if you already have a basic skill set and basic knowledge of cooking, it's best to skip school and enter into a great kitchen/chef.  I think experience matters more but those first 5-10 or so years should be spent under the tutelage of a renowned chef and where your skills can be honed from working at 110% instead of entering into a position where things are more lax.  Once you've done that, your options become much more open.

Lastly, I've worked with many chefs and aspiring chefs who have come out of CIA or J&W and for what it's worth, the range of skill and demeanor is quite vast.  It's really the individual that matters and not the school itself.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Well stated chef ,

As I have been telling young people for   years "It's not the school it's you" and in many cases you have to have it in the hands and head. I have had young aspiring chefs from all of these schools some are good, some are exceptional some just wasted their time and dads money or their own.Most of the ones that were good worked in the trade prior to school.


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## savorychef (Dec 28, 2011)

WOW! Did not know that this thread would get so many responses. Thanks to all who took the time to post, I really appreciate it. I have thought about J&W and yes I know they are mucho expensivo but they are a good school. Now after reading every last one of your posts.....several times I might add, and also doing my own research and coming to my common sense, I have decided to go to a junior college. At 100 bucks per cred and 64 creds for an AS in Culinary Arts Management, I think it's a good deal. Like I mentioned in my OP. I already have a pell grant that should cover everything.....yes everything....even books, knives, whites....whatever.Oh and they are ACF accredited, if it means anything. Once again muchisimas gracias.....ahh I mean thanks.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Good choice. Bechamel is bechamel they all teach the same.and ratios and procedures for prep are the same. Good Luck to you! ejb


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## mrmexico25 (Jan 7, 2012)

This post brings about another question in my mind, on that someone may have dabbled on earlier but I dont remember who and dont care enough to go back and quote them.  Anyways, whether to go or not to go to a cullinary school was the question, BUT does it make you a chef?  If not, what does? 

I've never been to culinary school, but I've helped design a menu, and been a lead cook for over 5 years (all one restaurant I've worked at for 9 years and I'm 23 years old) and don't yet consider my self a chef.  What must be done to make the leap?  If I have to goto a $60,000 culinary school just for the title of "chef" I say go f**k your self.  I'll stick to do what I love, getting paid for it, and still be called a cook.  Fine by me


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

For me, "Chef" is simply the title of the one in charge of the kitchen, /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gifhopefully they can cook as well as manage /img/vbsmilies/smilies/talker.gif

Besides cooking skills, one needs to know:

Personnel management
Business management
Business accounting
Business finance
Marketing
Business law
to be an effective "Chef".

For me, formal culinary training is the least of the credentials needed, TBS, HR may have a different viewpoint


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

You earn it by gathering experience from many different places over the years. Pete has the traits listed but I will add one and its organization. You must keep track of what is going on at all times. 

I work part time with a Great Young American Chef >He has worked in some  really upscale multi award winning restaurants He has all kinds of awards, but lacks experience in multi outlet Volume non restaurant  operations. He will absorb that over time, same way we all did, by jumping in and just doing it.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

mrmexico25 said:


> If I have to goto a $60,000 culinary school just for the title of "chef"


Anyone promising you "no fees" is full of crap, anyone promising you "This gasoline powered car will never need an oil change" is full of crap, and any culinary school promising you that upon graduation of a course will make you a "Chef" is full of crap.

There is no standard for cooks, there is no standard for "Chefs", the culinary schools do whatever they want to do with no guidlines to follow. They (Culinary schools) will continue do this, and sucker in people until standards are put in place. Europe has such standards, and has had them for hundreds of years, Canada is starting to impliment them.

I doubt if that will ever happen in the U.S..


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## mrmexico25 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification, all of you.  You all seemed much more experienced then myself, but I'm well on my way.  If what you told me holds true, then I'll never be a "chef", but I certainly will be a damn good cook!  And wont be ashamed to say so.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*LOL.*_ NO, *MrMexico25*, you _CAN_ be a chef anytime you like. _"Chef"_ and _"Cook"_ are both *V O C A B U L A R Y Words*. There are no real rules or standards for using vocabulary words. However, be aware if you talk the talk, you better be good and able to walk the walk. What I am saying is that if you do your job to the highest quality and standards involved with the job, the title is not so much important. Everyone defines what their standards are very differently. I have my credentials, they can't be taken away. The way I determine if I'm a chef or a cook is based on the job I'm doing at the time. _That is how I define the words._ Live by how _YOU_ define things, _NOT how SOMEONE ELSE_ tells you how they define those things.

_Be All That You Can Be ... _


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## linny29 (Oct 9, 2010)

I have worked with culinary school graduates several times and some were good and some did not know a damn thing! I think the first half of the school is waste for someone like yourself who cooks everyday and does not need to be taught how to hold a knife and cut onions. Maybe they should have a culinary finishing school!!


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## gumbo (Jan 5, 2012)

Being a grad of a well know school will help open doors, at least it did for me. That said I went to a school that required entrants to have at least a year of work in a commercial kitchen.
Fast food shouldn't count.

I hope the bigger schools continue that requirement.

When I used to teach at a small culinary school the the admissions "sales team" would sometimes fill a class with folks happened to see our commercial while watching Jerry Springer. Many worked in fast food, occasionally a few had solid skills from OJT at a decent place. Many had zero experience and were career changers (I liked them the most) who were motivated and paying their own way, not wasting dads money or on some loan program. 

I keep in touch with a few of my students from years back and all have done well, a few now head chefs at high end places, one owns a place. However, another one of my faves - a motivated student sadly later became victim of reality and went back to his higher paying job delivering home heating oil.

Go in knowing you get out what you put in. If you get stuck in a class of jackasses make them switch you.

Be the sponge you mention for 3-5 years after school and consider it part of your education. Then go for money....

My stepdad always loved to cook. He got laid off from a job as an engineer after 15-20 years. At age 50+ he took a free culinary course offered by his town and interned at a "real" Hilton, finished the program and stayed on for a while. Next thing you know he's moving to Key West and landed sous at Pepes. 
Later became chef... I went down and it was a really nice white tablecloth place that had been there for like 100 years! 

You can be him..,

HTH - good luck.

*reason for edit = skipped English class too often*


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Uh-huh.....

My sister has never been to culinary school,but has cooked for years.  Grips the knife all white-knuckled like it was a 2x4, every time I come over I sharpen her knives,and she is consistantly amazed on how well a sharp knife can cut, has no idea how to pit and slice a peach, how to skin a tomato--or why, or how to dice an onion.  I never watch TV at all, she can tell me about every cooking show she has seen.   She also has no idea that "poach" means below the boiling point, and that "sauteing" has to have some kind of oil involved or it isn't sauteing.

9 times out of 10 what you learn on the job isn't the right way of doing things anyway.  You need some kind of school,,and you need to cover all the basics in school just to make sure that they are done right.


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## steelybob (Dec 4, 2009)

I think we've resolved one solid thing in this post: culinary school doesn't teach nor have much concern for the English language or language skills in general.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Uh-huh... You need some kind of school,,and you need to cover all the basics in school just to make sure that they are done right.


If you change "school" to "training", I think I agree with you. The "training" may be formal, i.e. school, informal, i.e. apprenticeship, or OJT/self learned, but I agree, there should be some standards involved.

A formal training *may* have some advantages, i.e. a standardized curriculum, standardized performance measurements, and industry recognition. However, that is based on an assumption that there is a common body of knowledge applicable to all culinary occupations, similar to standards for electricians, plumbers, and other trades. Unfortunately, skills important for a short order cook may be very different than those necessary for a corporate casual dining cook, or even an upscale cook, and then there are the different set of skills for the catering and institutional food service areas not to mention food processing.

With regards to training and/or licensing having any measurable impact on wages paid, I have a difficult time rectifying how a demand driven industry can accommodate pay scales established by vocational training standards unless there is some impetus to coerce customers to utilize those services.

Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, HVAC technicians, and a host of other trades have governmental standards that must be met and customers have no choice but to pay the going rate to meet those standards. As far as I know, there is no governmental requirement that anyone *must* eat in a restaurant and that a great majority of people can survive quite adequately cooking or preparing their own meals at home. Of course, you can do your own wiring, plumbing, construction, or HVAC work *as long as you conform to the corresponding building code*, which I do not believe exists for food preparation activities, beyond food safety standards.

Perhaps, when the government decides to mandate eating at a restaurant a certain number of meals per week the situation will change.

It comes down to, at least for the present time, that cafes/coffee shops/short order houses/restaurants/hotels/caterers will pay employees from to pool of money provided by the customers and a great majority of time that will be after the rent/mortgage/loan payment(s), utility payments, taxes, licenses, food purchases, and mandated government payments have been made, as long as there is some money left /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Culinary Student!!! No one here ever said they were great at spelling or english, but perhaps you would want to have a cooking contest with one of them??? Plus there are a few writers and reviewers  on here that could teach you a thing or to about english language .


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

And if you pay attention, SteelyBob, you'll notice that those of us who make our livings with words do not take cheap shots at how others use the language.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes, Ky, training might be a better word, probably is.

My take on ojt and learning by yourself is this:

A restaurant's primary goal is to make money, to pay the bills. If you don't have, say omelette pans, you teach your staff to make omelettes on the flat top.  If you don't have the time or manpower to cut your own vegetables for soup, you bring them in pre-diced, or get someone one to fudge around with the meat slicer and then cross-chop them.  If you don't have the time or manpower to make even simple desserts you get them brought in.

A school, well yes, their primary goal is to make money too. But where a restaurant's reputation rests on it's food and service, the school's reputation rests on it's students.  Therefor it is in the school's best interest to ensure it's students know the basics.

If a cook's goal is to become a Chef, then schooling is a must.  There are countless positions in between prep cook and Chef of a 90 seat restaurant, and many of these positions don't require the formal training a Chef needs.  As with many of the trades you listed, there are increasing degrees of qualifications, ie. Gas fitter I, II,III.  Many stop at I or II and are comfortable, and I see no reason why cooks or bakers can't do this as well.  I don't promote a "Red seal Chef" qualification for everyone who works in a kitchen-- flipping burgers or pan searing ahi tuna (Although red seal is a must for many of "Wendy's" franchises here in CDN) 

Everyone here can tell you the hospitality industry is one of the lowest paying indsutrues around.  Why?

Mainly, becasue of competition.  Competition drives the prices down, the public loooooves buying cheap.  Nobody wants to pay for a scratch-made chicken cordon bleu or a slice of chocolate cake for a Thursday lunch with work collegues.. Competition demands an "addiction" to convienciece foods, conviencience foods in turn demand an addiction to buyers who can't figure out it is cheaper and more benificial to make from scratch, and the general public are addicted on advertising and cheap prices..  It's a really nasty cycle, and for the most part, cooks just stand in the middle and open packages.

In order to survive and flourish in this nasty cycle, there are two options, two extremes. The first is the  MC'd's way:  Total reliance on convienience products, total reliance on opening boxes and answering buzzers on fryers and flat-tops.  

The other extreme is everything made in house.  This method requires skilled manpower and creative purchasing methods.  However, since something unique is offered, no price war can take place. Apples vs oranges.

If we rely only on one method, we are finished. 

But anyway you look at things, we need properly trained manpower, and for this, we need properly trained trainers to train the traineees.

Suggestions?


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> ...But anyway you look at things, we need properly trained manpower, and for this, we need properly trained trainers to train the traineees.
> Suggestions?


Before we can identify "properly trained trainers", someone has to define "properly trained" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif and therein lies the conundrum. Someone needs to identify the "common body of knowledge" for each specified skill level as well as defining the skill levels themselves. Unfortunately, there is little in common among fast-food, bistro/cafe, independent casual, corporate casual, fine dining, hotel, catering, and institutional establishments beyond rudimentary, fundamental skills and knowledge that can be taught in a relatively short period of time.

In the USA, the ACF has defined the upper levels fairly well, however, as far as I can determine, no one has defined a generally accepted skill set and responsibilities (aside from some governmental entities such as military) for:

Dish Washer
Kitchen Helper
Raw food preparer
Cook (however defined, I, II, II, ???)
There are job descriptions that attempt to do so, but there is little coordination or similarity from one organization to another and none backed by any enforcement authority.

What is the solution? There is not one but a multitude of alternative approaches with two major categories, private sector (police yourselves, probably something like ACF) and public sector (government/union rule making restricting access to those meeting standards by fiat). Which do you prefer?

BTW, meeting either private or public sector standards does *not *insure competence, only that the standards have been met. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Cogitation can be a dangerous endeavor!

I left out some occupational categories that may address the differences in food production operations (restated)

Dish Washer
Kitchen Helper
Raw food preparer (vegetable washing, trimming, peeling, etc.), aka "Prep cook", prepares food products (mise en place) for others.
Processed food product handler, opens pre-processed food products
Food assembler (mainly fast-food and corporate casual)
Food re-thermalizers (heat previously cooked foods for service)
Food equipment operator ( I, II, III, ???), i.e. deep fry operator, oven handler, stand mixer operator, tomato slicer operator, fry cutter, etc.
Cook (however defined, I, II, II, ???), one who transforms raw food by application of heat following specific recipe guidelines.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

And again.

As part of the "common body of knowledge", vocabulary becomes paramount during training, not just classic terminology but contemporary as well.

An example, the following mean very specific things to me

Poach
Simmer
Boil
Braise
and they are distinct and separate.

In a concomitant discussion, the terms _ballotine, galantine, roulade, _and, IIRC, _roti_ came up with some emphasizing the similarities and others positing the differences. If there is to be a "common body of knowledge", it starts with a common vocabulary that minimizes ambiguities and reduces to potential for misunderstandings.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW.


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## steelybob (Dec 4, 2009)

just trying to bring some levity and awareness to the conversation, not trying for cheap shots =p (my English skills suck too, despite living there for 5ish years).

however, i do see a fascinating conversation here about job experience vs. general/holistic business awareness and how schooling plays into that mix that i find intensely important, because i think that if there's any hubris in the culinary field (yes, there's tons... almost as much in my post here), it is too often an attitude that the purity of the art somehow negates any business sense. go watch 50+ hours of "kitchen nightmares" for some reference on that point of disaster (and the subsequent pain of which these forums too often record).

i think the most successful artisans in this business understand that this is a business and put that first. and the artistry at the end of the day comes from mastering that business sense of how to put the value of their artistry out there as their primary unabashed product in a way that no potential customer can fail to understand.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

This is a really good thread that I am sharing with several high school students. While some arguments are more eloquent than others, I think the point of contention is the same. Entering this field can start by opening one of many doors. There is no 'one size fits all' answer and, quite honestly, there shouldn't be. What works best for one individual may not work for another. Hence, we all have choices to make. We do the best we can to make the right decision based on research, asking questions and, yes, gut instinct. I think you will agree that it is nice to have more than once path to follow.


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## chefjpauley (Jan 18, 2012)

IceMan said:


> Sorry my friend, but this is stuff any adult can learn in one(1) shift.
> 
> Whether you're aware or not, bar-tenders do all kinds of _"prep"_, much like veg prep before their shifts. How much different is bar fruit than veggies? It shouldn't take more than one(1) shift to learn. Cleaning out the fryers is something you watch once, and you're an expert. Helping out at the dishpit is something your mother should have taught you. I always have the instructions pasted up in plain sight if you didn't; in English and Spanish. Plating up banquet plates is something for trained monkeys. You watch what the others do, you ask a few questions, you listen to what you're told, you get the job done. Inventory is inventory; steaks, potatoes, beer, wine, whiskey. You either do it in the bar or the walk-in. If it's cold, put on a jacket.
> 
> This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens. The stuff I got from the CIA is stuff very few people I've worked with know. I give that to the people I'm working for or with. That's what makes me the chef I am.


Yeah any adult can learn it in one shift but can you do it 6-7 days a week 12-16 hours a day for several years before your a chef


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*LOL. *_You just really crack me up.

_*"CHEF"*_ is still only a _*vocabulary word*_. I do the job, I do it very well, I get paid. Call me a _"plumber"_ if you wish, just make sure you pay me on time.. All that is important is people eating what is served, and coming back again for more.

I don't know anything at all about _your staff_. I _do know_ that if I teach _my staff_ something on Monday, they don't forget it on Tuesday. I hire people much smarter than that. Everything in my post that you quoted is still general kitchen work.

_*This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens.*_

Get back to me when you figure out this very simple concept.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Let's keep this discussion in the realm of education and in the spirit of the initial inquiry. And STOP the one on one attacks. NOW!


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## paul alfred (Nov 18, 2011)

This has been quite an enlightening thread to read.  Not that I didn't have an opinion before, and not that it has changed...but it is enlightening to see how the culinary field feels about this in general.

Personally, I am ambivalent towards culinary school.  My chef that taught me went to LCB, enjoyed every minute of it, and is doing quite well for himself now.  It did open a few doors for him via connections he made there, but the fact that he went to LCB really hasn't affected anything else for him one way or the other.  If anything, it set his employer's expectations of him rather high, but because of his natural talent and just the type of person he is, he easily met those expectations.  

I however did not go to culinary school.  I apprenticed under my chef for three years.  I loved every minute of it, and wouldn't trade that type of experience and education for the world.  Maybe I liked it better because I was homeschooled and seem to enjoy a less formal style of education, or maybe it was because I thought it was awesome that I wasn't paying big bucks to get an amazing education.  Either way, I learned the same things he learned at LCB and paid a lot of money to learn, and I didn't pay a cent.  Am I as good a chef as he is...not yet, but that is due to a difference in experience, and not in talent or training.

As another example, my uncle went to culinary school (CIA if I'm not mistaken...although I'll have to ask him to confirm that).  He did well in school, and enjoyed it.  He had retired from the US Army, and used his GI Bill money to learn a new trade after leaving the military.  He has done quite well since then, and provides sufficiently well for his family.  On the other hand, my younger brother took the school of hard knocks route (like I did) and took an apprenticeship.  He started working in a professional kitchen at 16, and was noticed by the executive chef fairly quickly.  He worked under her instruction for a number of  years before moving on, and has been able to work at a number of fine dining restaurants as he worked his way up the kitchen "food chain".  He has done well enough that his chef asked him to come back and be her sous chef.  She herself went through the school of hard knocks and has been a chef for over 25 years now.  She has just accepted a job at a very high-end fine-dining restaurant in the area (which I will not name until she decides to make it common knowledge) so I guess an apprenticeship worked for her too.  

Like I said, I am ambivalent towards culinary school.  I know very successful chefs who have gone both routes.  There are many successful chefs on this forum that have gone both routes.  In the end, what matters is that is is something you want (whether it be formal or informal schooling) and that it is a wise decision based on your current situation.  It is a decision you must make, and one that hopefully you will stick with and see through to the end.  I'm not that saying asking for advice on the topic is a bad idea...it is a great idea, in my opinion.  But ultimately the decision should be based on what your desires and goals are, and what you feel is the wisest decision at the time you are making it.


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## snippy (Jan 20, 2012)

I've been thinking, cooking is not to everybodies liking but look at it this way every one gotto eat So maybe people are just jealous of some people natural talents, I cant sing to save my life but I'm a whiz in the kitchen but I get that from my dad as soon as I could walk I was at the counter made some sort of concoction but my brothers cant even boil an egg. But I also know what your aiming at my parents worked their fingers to the bone for me and my bros & Siss to have a education in something other than chefing but I'm a black sheep of the family and nose dived in to the life of a professional chef. I'm just hoping they forgive me for it... one  day soon.


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## steelybob (Dec 4, 2009)

so who won here? i missed it, sorry...


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

No winners, no losers. To each his own or diffrent strokes for different folks.


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## automne (Apr 9, 2011)

KYHeirloomer said:


> What I don't understand is all you folks who insist on thinking culinary school is different than any other trade or career path.
> 
> School is expensive, no matter what your choosen field. And starting pays are comparatively low in most fields as well. But I don't hear anyone saying don't go to school if you want to be a reporter, or a school teacher, or a businessman. And the idea that culinary arts people are the only ones who graduate with unrealistic expectations is just silly. When I graduated from journalism school, for instance, many of my classmates suffered from the idea that just because they had a J degree the New York Times was anxious to hire them. That's comparable to graduating culinary school and expecting to be named sous chef at a Michelin starred restaurant.
> 
> And let's get real about the relationship between entry-level pay and tuition costs. When my son graduated with an MBA, despite scholarships that helped tremendously, he was $160,000 in debt. His first job's salary was 35 grand.


This is something I've been trying to get through to my mother. I wanted to go to culinary school out of high school, but she vetoed and said I had to go to a four-year university. So fine, I did and received my B.A. in Psychology. I graduated in 2007. Hey, guess what happened the year before? Yes, the worldwide economic collapse. So now nearly five years and goodness knows how many job applications later, I received ONE interview and was turned down because I was OVER-qualified. I can't even get an entry-level position with a bachelor's. Mother keeps harping on the low starting wages in the culinary career track in relation to the tuition costs of NECI, but she doesn't consider the fact that I would be spending a comparable amount of money on graduate school (IF I even got in. Keep in mind that I graduated college with a 2.816 GPA and I have nothing on my résumé that will make up for that) to get a master's in something I'm lukewarm about at best and only get entry-level positions that pay $30K/year IF I even got a job. The other choice is what I'm currently doing: working 6-day OT weeks at a retail job I hate and barely make over $20K/year and unable to afford to move out (live in a way too expensive area where rent for a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood is more than my monthly paycheck).

To further illustrate: my sister went to law school, is $250K in debt, and the only job offerings she's qualified for pay at most $14/hr. And this is a person who has a federal government job as well as other impressive features on her résumé. She has yet to even score an interview.

If I'm going to spend money on school and make $30K/year in a job with long workweeks, odd hours, weekends and holidays, it might as well be in a field that I truly enjoy. And honestly, my mother is the kind of person who will never be happy and accept what her daughters do in life. Her (rather passive-aggressive) objections do not come from a place of concern for my future career prospects.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Do what you love.  Have an open mind, know that even in fast food or poorly run place, you can learn what works and what doesn't.  There are many many different avenues to go in when working in the food industry.

Writing

Photography

Catering (onsite and offsite)

Farmers markets

baking

selling

marketing

food styling

working with booze/wine

teaching

event planning

corporate

personal chef

private chef

personal buyer

R&D

food scientist

broker

farmer

forager

RD

rural sociologist

on and on and on and on......many opportunities.

*I've done at least 50% of the list.


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## costco77 (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm new to this forum and I'm currently a college student but living in a food city really made me realize that my true passion is in food and cooking, so I'm looking to make the move into the culinary field ASAP. The problem is that I have zero experience in cooking in a restaurant, I'm just a home cook. I've applied to several restaurants around town for at least a prep cook job and they're all looking for at least two years of experience, so it's hard to get experience when everybody is looking for experience, it's hard to know where to start...dishwasher?? I really don't want to waste my time washing dishes when I could be learning and gaining experience in the kitchen. I would think going to culinary school is my only option....right?

if not go to culinary school how would you start?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Costco77 said:


> it's hard to know where to start...dishwasher?? I really don't want to waste my time washing dishes when I could be learning and gaining experience in the kitchen. I would think going to culinary school is my only option....right?
> 
> if not go to culinary school how would you start?


Most of us started washing dishes, and it's not a waste of time. You don't think you wash dishes all the time, do you? If the cooks like your attitude, they will ask you to do food prep tasks, if the Chef likes your attitude, he will ask you to move up to salads.

I don't know how to make my opinions clear on cooking in a professional kitchen, but I will try:

Say you need a cataract surgery, you have a choice of two surgeons. First guy graduated 1st out of a class of 200, aced the surgery on computer simulation and on dead animals, but never really did it on a human before. The other guy has done about 500 surgeries, no complications. Who're gonna choose?

Yeah, yeah, a restaurant isn't surgery. It's the owner's life though, his finances and risk, his overhead and salary cost. It's the employee's livelyhood too.

Work at lest 9 mths in a restaurant before plopping your money down for school. It's (cooking professionaly) not for everyone.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

foodpump said:


> ...Work at lest 9 mths in a restaurant before plopping your money down for school. It's (cooking professionaly) not for everyone.


Notice that FoodPump did *not* say cook in a restaurant, he said *work.*

As FoodPump pointed out, a dishwasher does not only wash dishes, there are no dishes to wash unless food is being cooked and served.

Besides, one of the most critical, IMHO, jobs in a kitchen is the dishwasher, remember, no plates, no tableware, no pots, pans, skillets, no money into the till!


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## steelybob (Dec 4, 2009)

i remain very proud that in my school's dining lab it was generally agreed that we would rename our DMO pit positions from "DMO1" and "DMO2" to "Bob1" and "Bob2". I had that bidness down and running like sunshine and smelling of roses come service.

While the rest of the restaurant or front of house were being cleaned (sanitized/swept/mopped), dishes were done well in advance and never second guessed, largely because there was no need. They were sparkling and wonderful - as was the commentary from our hot line in how our pit made damned sure they had what they needed in ample time and at the critical moment... not that servers were neglected but their needs did come second to our line.

in my final restaurant plan our prep cooks and dishwashers made essentially (much) more or even with our line cooks.

just sayin...


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## richmcguire (Mar 18, 2012)

Thomas Rhee said:


> For every great chef that came out of a cooking school, there are many who never attended. Some of the world's top chefs never went to cooking school but trained and apprenticed at great restaurants.
> 
> Some examples?
> 
> ...


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

"waste my time washing dishes".

I'd rethink my attitude in whole, or you'll find yourself "wasting time making salads", "wasting time plating desserts", etc.


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## rmullins (Jan 13, 2012)

To be fair, Anthony Bourdain DID get a degree, but if you read his material he is very 'down' on the idea.


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## left4bread (May 8, 2009)

rmullins said:


> To be fair, Anthony Bourdain DID get a degree, but if you read his material he is very 'down' on the idea.


He writes fiction; poorly.

One can't take his writings as truth.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Most in this industry get a "degree" in order to ah... "appease" the H.R. dept or in order to get a decent salary


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

foodpump said:


> Most in this industry get a "degree" in order to ah... "appease" the H.R. dept or in order to get a decent salary


Not that there's any thing wrong with that.

Dave


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## rawredonion (Mar 13, 2012)

I wouldn't knock dishwashing. I did a year and a half in the dish pit, it made me a more humble cook after that point. And it serves as to a novice/apprentice as an oppertunity to observe the kitchen around you while doing a rather mindles task. Take a dish job and observe the flow of things and just do some time in the low rank and work up. It's simple and perfectly respectable for where you are and what you want to do.


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