# Asorbic Acid



## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Yesterday I used asorbic acid (aka vitamin C) for the first time. I found it in powdered form at a local vitamin store. I used it in a french bread from The Taste of Bread. The results were very good. The crumb was moist with lots of large irregular holes. I'm not sure if it was the result of the asorbic acid, Calvel's attention to mixing method detail....

I knead to do some research on the effect of asorbic acid in bread so I thought I would start here. Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? What kinds of bread does it help? How does it help? What potency? Anyone? Beuller?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kyle, I'll checkout any references to VIT C in ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA, just in case you don't have that book. I'd also like to hear more observations about it's use.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I bought some at a wine making supply place, but haven't tried using it yet. There's some concern about how to measure it. What did Calvel do, a gram in a liter and then a ml was so many milligrams or something?
I had a wacky experience yesterday. The earthy crunch grocery store had me go to another store about 45 miles away to "train" making cupcakes and whoopie pies. Scooped 186 dozen altogether. I can do without that kind of training. But they had a complete bread thing going there, complete with a machine that made levain. It was about the size of two washing machines stacked up,. with a hatch on the top and a spigot on the bottom. It was temperature controlled and the Rasta Baker just opened the spigot and measured it out. This went into a big batch of sourdough, and I was a little disappointed to see him make several different flavors of bread out of it. He scaled it into loaves for it's bulk fermentation and then seemed to start shaping it right away, using another machine. That gives the baked loaves a telltale look. His bannetons were all full of blue mold, nobody was using gloves when they handled rte food, it was a little disappointing. Busy place though. The store I work at does nothing like that kind of business. I've got a biga for Reinhart's Italian bread rising right now. I'll be sliding that out of the oven around dinnertime.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Maybe the blue mold was a secret flavor ingredient!

Calvel's formula was for 20 KG of flour and I think it called for 400MG of asorbic acid. I'll check when I get home. I use less than 1/8 tsp in 13.5 oz. of flour.


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## risa (May 11, 2001)

I seem to recall something about vitamin c in bread in Corriher's Cookwise. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Just an fyi on VIT C: it stimulates collagen production, the most ubiquitous tissue in the body. Women pay fortunes for collagen injections into their lips to achieve that thick, soft, sexy pout that men highly desire.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I have her book. I'll give it a read when I get home. Thanks Risa.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I am waiting to see how the discussion about this topic will develop.
Apart from experimenting ,I see no other reason to put such things in bread.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

A:

I've read that VIT C stimulates yeast activity. I may well give a better rise and more prominent crown in the shape of the loaf.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Don't Meg Ryan's lips look like she's had collagen injections? Lately they've had this full pouty look. I'll bet she's had the needle.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I'm too lazy to waddle around the house and find Calvel, but I'll bet the ascorbic acid is added on a percentage basis. I'm almost ready to make a dough. May have to drag out the grain scale and calculator.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm kind of the same way, Athenaeus. I usually have an attitude of, if I can't grow it or raise it, I don't like to use it (more than absolutely necessary). Not that I think there's anything _wrong_ with stuff I can't grow/raise, but I tend to think in a self-sufficient mindframe. I think- what if something happened and I dind't have access to this item? What do I use to substitute? (One of the reasons I'm so interested in starter cultures- I don't want to have to be dependent on storebought yeast!)

I wonder if there are some other ways to add vitamin C to the bread without using asorbic acid?

Oh, and a little note- no matter how much you add to the bread, the amount of vitamin C you would get back after you bake it is highly questionable. Vitamin C is heat sensitive and heat destroys it fairly easily.

I also did a google search and came up with these-
Vitamin C

more on vitamin c (you need adobe acrobat to read this)


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I just wonder if we just make our life more difficult.
If VIT C was that helpfull our grandmothers would use orange juice or lemon juice etc in their breads for years now.

TBH, waddle the house to find a book? I like those houses


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I hadn't considered that...


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Roon:

Sources of VIT C include all citrus fruits. Just squeeze a lemon into your primordial dough and allow it to rise up to its full glory! Report back to us soon.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Going back to my "sufficiency" mindset here-

Other than citrus fruits, what are good sources of vitamin C? Things that would work well in bread, of course. Liver, although high in vitamin C, probably wouldn't be the first choice of many people, plus I'm not sure how well it would work. If I live in the North and I'm growing my own stuff, citrus trees won't be high on my list, simply because of the climate.

Aren't berries high in vit. C? Off to check...


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Do you use it kokopuffs? Lemon in your dough?


I just liked this style! No quote!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

No, I don't use it yet but may include some in my recipe in the near future.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Found some! Now it's just wondering how the juices of each fruit would translate into taste in the bread... man, I will be a busy bee trying stuff out! This will be fun! 

Fruit vitamin C sources

Berries


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Well roon I don't want to be a ...Kassandra but... I don't think that they will taste well.

Waiting for the results of your experiments Dr. Roon


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Personally, I think you're right, A.  But, since no one ever believed Cassandra's prophecies (though she was always right!) I think I'll try anyway. After all, it's like my motto- if you don't ask, you'll never know. And, if you don't try, you'll never know. 

(Dr. Roon, huh? I don't think so! Not by a long shot! I just like to try different stuff.)


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

According to Calvel, ascorbic acid "reinforces the physical properties of the dough and hastens its maturation. Furthermore, it increases the forming and handling tolerance of the unbaked dough pieces and promotes the production of larger volume loaves since it allows them to be baked at a higher proof level. "
He goes on to point out that it is destroyed by heat, no trace of it remains, has no influence on the development of flavor and since it accelerates maturation, it's presence can indirectly limit the formation of organic acids which contribute to the development of the taste of bread. So, don't go nuts with it.
If you've ever stood in front of a table with 40 or 60 rolled-up logs of French bread which absolutely resist being shaped into baguettes without tearing, then you would appreciate more "handling tolerance." 
Check my math...I wanted 40mg ascorbic acid per kilogram of flour. I only have a grain scale to weigh small amounts. 7000 grains per lb equals 15 or so grains per gram. The dough I made had 45 oz of flour, which is 1.27 times a kilo, so I multiplied 1.27 times 40, which is almost 51, and since a stock solution of 1 gm to 1 liter of water gave me 1 mg per ml, I used 50 ml, or about 1.75 oz, and deducted that from my formula water.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Thank you THB

The science has spoken, Roon, no room for prophecies!

But I would appreciate some feedback of home bakers


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

And the answer is... I just baked off three of Bread Baker's Apprentice Italian bread, with the ascorbic acid added, and I think there is a discernible difference as far as loaf size goes. They took a lot of proofing, I mean they withstood a lot. The first two loafs kind of split a little, but the third one, which had to wait that extra half hour to bake, came out perfectly symmetrical. I proofed them in bannetons and I make four slashes on top. Nice breads. Two are gone already.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

According to:

Shirley Corriher "...it helps in gluten development and produces lighter breads."

Bernard Clayton "French flour gets no chemical treatment whatsoever except for minute additions of asorbic acid, which strengthens the dough and gives the loaf more volume."

Joe Ortiz "...is used by French bakers to give their dough a property called "tolerance". ("How much rising time can a dough tolerate before it collapses?") ...Vitamin C gives tenacity to a limp weak bread dough-- providing the strength th permit full development of the loaf."

Beth Hensberger "Vitamin C strengthens weak flours and yeast loves it."

Raymond Calvel "Asorbic acid reinforces the physical properties of dough and hastens its maturation. Furthermore, it increases the forming an handling tolerance of the unbaked dough pieces and promotes the production of larger volume loaves since it allows them to be baked at a higher proof level."


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Compare the crumb in the two French breads. Guess which one had Vitamin C added?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

From Cookwise:

*On Additives:*

Many of my recipes contain one or more unusual ingredients. I see no reason not to add natural healthful ingredients that improove bread volume or taste. My additives are ingredients that are readily available in most locations at grocery stores, drugstores, or health food stores.

Vitamin C
Because it helps gluten development and produces lighter breads, I frequently add a piece of a crushed vitamin C tablet. Page 11

*Oxidizing And Reducing Agents* 
Vitamin C work in conjunction with oxidizers - whether oxygen, iodates, or potassium bromate - to improove gluten development. Since tiny amounts of vitamin C can improove gluten quality and is a healtful nutrient, I frequently add it to recipes. Page 57

*Homemade Dough Improvers - A combinaison Of Effects* 
Dough developers or dough conditioners used by commercial bakers and millers may contain citamin C (absorbic acid), inorganic salts, some form of sugar, and possibly potassium bromate for better gluten cross-linking. One of the sough developers that I have seen frequently in French bakeries in the United States is from Belgium and contains dextrose, vitamin C, and other oxidizing agents.

You can simulate a professional baker's dough improovers for yeast breads in your own home baking by proofing yeast with a little sugar and adding a crushed vitamin C tablet just before kneading.

For even more comprehensive dough improvement, add vitamin C for better gluten developments; an egg yolk for antistaling and better gluten development; 1/4 teaspoon ground fenugreek, rosemary, or cinnamon for enhanced yeast activities and better keeping qualities; 1 tablespoon sugar to feed yeast; and 1 teaspoon barley malt syrup, which contains enzymes to convert flour to yeast food. Page 93


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## ddick (Jan 19, 2002)

I know you have "The Village Baker" by Joe Ortiz, but here is what he says about acid ascorbique for those who don't have it:

_Vitamin C

The same magical powder that we Americans ingest in massive doses in hope of avoiding the common cold is used by French bakers to give their dough a property called tolerance. ("how much rising time can a dough tolerate before it collapses?") A wet dough that undergoes a fermentation of between four and six hours is likely to collapse if it is not put in the oven at the precise moment it is ready. Vitamin C, acide ascorbique, gives tenacity to a limp, weak bread dough - providing the strength to permit the full development of the loaf.

Ascorbic acid is added in the most minute quantities, to a maximum of fifty milligrams per quintal of flour (one quintal is 100 kilos), or as a friend who is an oceanographer-turned baker put it, two hundred parts per million. In everyday baking terms, this works out to about 1/8 teaspon in 100 pounds of flour._


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Wow. A little sure goes a long way, eh? 

Will have to try adding vit. c to my breads....

So much to do- so little time!!!


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Ok. OK!!!

You persuaded me. They are in the oven. I made 2 loaves of French bread and I experimented with Greek "village bread"

I went down town this morning , hoping that in my "pure country" we don't sell such things !!
I got back home with specific direction on how we use asorbic acid in baking  I also brough a tiny scale that pharmacists used to use.

BTW all of you ESPECIALLY TBH and Kylie are beyond comparison!You are great bakers, I bow humbly.

I will bring a loaf to you to sign on it Kylie, kind of autograph 

When I went to your site to see your results, I realised what your signatures means


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

:lol: I suppose I should get out more!


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

I went looking for other sources of vitamin c- onions and potatoes are good. I will try experimenting with them before turning to fruits for vitamin c.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Roon:

Consult a book on the nutritional value of foods. I believe that onions and potatos contain negligible amounts of VIT C - not enough to improve the rise and strength of the crumb.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I used the asorbic acid.

My French bread was better. Of course, to be honest I must tell you that I have the suspicion that they turned out better because I took better care of them but I don't mind blaming it on the asorbic.

As for the "Village type" bread I saw no difference

 

I will try it for a couple of times though especially when I am planning bigger quantities of bread.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I wonder if you bake with asorbic on regular basis.
As I opened my kitchen cabinets today I saw it and it reminded me of the whole discussion.

I made baguettes today and I used it. I really do not see any difference maybe because I use flour of a very good quality, from a mill.

Do you still use it ir it was just a fashion?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I have my jar sitting on my bench. If I am making french or sourdough bread, and I see it, I use it  It has not become de rigeur.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Adding approx 1 tsp of lemon juice to a dough consisting of 4 1/2 cups of flour, seems to toughen the glutinous strands. Lemon juice makes for a chewier dough.


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