# Christmas Present Time!



## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

So, its that time of the year. The time where I can justify getting a new knife.

I'm looking for a 240mm, or 270mm gyuto. Yo/Wa handle isnt an issue to me, only the fact that Wa handles are usually more expensive keeps me from trying one.

I currently have a 210mm Carbonext that I like, but I find it too short for a workhorse, and too expensive for a line knife (Forschner bread knife anyone?) I also have a 10 inch Sabatier carbon that I really like.

I'm much more concerned with a knifes ability to get really sharp than how I feel about edge retention. As long as I can happily use it for a 10-12 hour shift, without noticing a great deal of dulling I don't mind touching it on stones every day.

I pinch grip. Not as soft as it would be, but not a death grip by any means. I'm working on getting it looser, honestly 

I'm tending towards a push/glide cut since I started seriously using my Sab. I rarely rock anymore.

I do hone the knives I have, as I can do. It would be a plus if I could keep up with this.

I'm also left handed. I don't think I want a laser. My budget may be prohibitive, at 200$. I can go higher for considerable advancements in quality. Bang for your buck is important, but I don't mean that in a way to keep costs down. I don't mind paying 250$ for something that will match up to a 400$ knife, in the same way that I'd pay 100$ for something to match a 250$ knife. I'm in the UK.

I've been looking around and am considering a Shaun Fernandez custom from CKtG, a Goko white #1, a Masazumi 240mm, Masamoto HC..


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

Anyone have some input?


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

So you want something longer than your CN, and cheaper so you don't get heart broken when you lose it on the line, edge retention isn't an issue but you want it to last a 12 hour shift.

Then again, a lawyer you can trust says "a masamoto is a masamoto"


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

Wubu said:


> So you want something longer than your CN, and cheaper so you don't get heart broken when you lose it on the line, edge retention isn't an issue but you want it to last a 12 hour shift.
> Then again, a lawyer you can trust says "a masamoto is a masamoto"


Actually I didnt mention but I won't be using this knife on the line. By edge retention I meant that with the M390s and stuff people are saying they don't have to even touch up their blades for 5-7 weeks, but I'm not too bothered about that.

Which range of Masamoto is best?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

kingofkings said:


> Actually I didnt mention but I won't be using this knife on the line. By edge retention I meant that with the M390s and stuff people are saying they don't have to even touch up their blades for 5-7 weeks, but I'm not too bothered about that.
> 
> Which range of Masamoto is best?


There is nothing out there in M390 that's even remotely in your budget. Someday people will learn to avoid the project knives that get overly fluffed on select forums. Putting that in perspective you'd have well over $400 invested in a $250 knife just to get started and even then you'd still be left with a cra**y knife made with good steel. There's very few insane knife knutz out there that would even bother taking on a project like that. This is where people get totally hood winked with minutia. Good steel alone does not make a great knife. Setting all of that aside I'm baffled by the selections listed when your uncomfortable taking a knife like a CN that's a fraction of the price to work. The solution is to spend more $?

I'm not sure who said A Masamoto is a Masamoto but either some one was pulling your leg or another post is likely being taken out of context. A Masamoto HC is not even remotely the same as a KS and that can continue to some degree through out their entire line. Even a Masamoto HC is more $$$ than a CN although it may attract a bit less attention from those unfamiliar with the brand (not very likely in a professional setting).

Unless you are buying used you are probably not going to get a knife for $100 that will "match" the performance of knife that's $250. The only place that usually exists is in marketing hype no matter what brand you select or who you buy it from.

Dave


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

Lets see...the masamoto quote was separately used about the VG, CT and the KS too, but I also like this quote: "I hate knife/car metaphors, but a Masamoto is pretty much a Porsche, and KS is their Turbo. Tad would be more like Lotus." 

But yes, I'm guilty of pasting without context... >.>


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I course stone my knives weekly and fin stone almost daily. Using steel as I work.


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

DuckFat said:


> There is nothing out there in M390 that's even remotely in your budget. Someday people will learn to avoid the project knives that get overly fluffed on select forums. Putting that in perspective you'd have well over $400 invested in a $250 knife just to get started and even then you'd still be left with a cra**y knife made with good steel. There's very few insane knife knutz out there that would even bother taking on a project like that. This is where people get totally hood winked with minutia. Good steel alone does not make a great knife. Setting all of that aside I'm baffled by the selections listed when your uncomfortable taking a knife like a CN that's a fraction of the price to work. The solution is to spend more $?
> 
> I'm not sure who said A Masamoto is a Masamoto but either some one was pulling your leg or another post is likely being taken out of context. A Masamoto HC is not even remotely the same as a KS and that can continue to some degree through out their entire line. Even a Masamoto HC is more $$$ than a CN although it may attract a bit less attention from those unfamiliar with the brand (not very likely in a professional setting).
> 
> ...


The Artifex is only $119.95, the Ultimatum is $250, both in M390. Just for future knowledge.

I'm not insecure about taking my CN to work at all, on the contrary I take it every day. Only about using it on the line due to the 'thin' tip (in relation to a Forschner, which personally I consider better for the abuse it gets during service).

When you say 'project knives', could you explain what you mean? What do you think I should look at getting?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

WOW those cost that much? I recently posted a link on another thread that had detail photos. No matter what those cost it's going to take a lot of work (or a lot of $$) to turn them into decent knives. Now if you can do all of the work yourself (The project) then that may be another story. It still won't be cheap or easy and the only reason to take that on is if your determined to have M390.

As far as what you should get I think it depends. Clearly you do not want a laser if your not into thin tips. If you want carbon then the Masamoto HC is a very good choice. The Sakai Yusuke from BluewayJapan (fleabay) is pretty much right at your price point and comes in both SS and carbon versions. If you're into the Dragon there's always the Misono which is running $190 so pretty much right at your budget as well. Since you've bought from Koki in the past you may like the standard WA Kagayki he sells.

Dave

http://korin.com/Misono-Swedish-Carbon-Steel-Gyutou?sc=27&category=280077


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

also might be worth checking out the new masazumi knives on cktg, it's in AEB-L and definitely better heat treat than some other knives of the same price in the same steel.

=D


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

Cktg carries a few Sakai Yusuke now too btw...
And I think this is the thread Dave is talking about? http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9294-Any-Ultimatum-m390-reports


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

yes i think so.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Wubu said:


> Cktg carries a few Sakai Yusuke now too btw...


They do not carry the SS version and no upgraded handle option but if you want carbon that's a very good option and a lot less $$ than a KS.

Dave


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

i really like the carbon sakai yusuke from reading about it. not too thin for a laser and not too expensive.

=D


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

DuckFat said:


> WOW those cost that much? I recently posted a link on another thread that had detail photos. No matter what those cost it's going to take a lot of work (or a lot of $$) to turn them into decent knives. Now if you can do all of the work yourself (The project) then that may be another story. It still won't be cheap or easy and the only reason to take that on is if your determined to have M390.
> 
> As far as what you should get I think it depends. Clearly you do not want a laser if your not into thin tips. If you want carbon then the Masamoto HC is a very good choice. The Sakai Yusuke from BluewayJapan (fleabay) is pretty much right at your price point and comes in both SS and carbon versions. If you're into the Dragon there's always the Misono which is running $190 so pretty much right at your budget as well. Since you've bought from Koki in the past you may like the standard WA Kagayki he sells.
> 
> ...


I didn't realise the problems with the Richmonds. I'll be keeping away from them.

I'm leaning towards the Masamoto HC at the moment, but I'm not really in a rush to buy because I don't want to make the same mistake as I did with my CN.

I appreciate your advice, whats your opinion on the MAC pro gyuto? Do you have any idea what the Masazumis are like from CKTG?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I have never seen a Masazumi let alone handle one. Based on the price point I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope. IMO the Masamoto HC is simply a great working knife as is the CT. The Mac is just not my favorite knife but the fact is that it's a solid working knife at a fair price. I'd never pick one over the Masamoto but I make no bones about having a strong afinity for Masamoto and Suisin.

Either way I don't see you making a poor choice with either one. You may also want to ask BDL about Sabatier if that's something that appeals to you but I know nothing about them.

Dave


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

I already have a Nogent, based of BDLs recommendation. I really like it, but I can't help but want to try something else out.

I'll wait on the Masazumis until they become a little more popular and see some reviews. I asked Mark about them, but he didnt tell me much. I suppose that is a sign in itself.

The reason I'm considering a MAC, where I wasn't before is because I was talking to someone and they mentioned they are selling theirs, which has barely been used, for 150$, whereas once accounting in for postage, the Masamoto is going to cost just shy of 250$


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

A few things:

_1. Richmond Ultimatum_

A significant majority of reviews of the Ultimatum have been positive. If you don't count the reviews on the "Kitchen Knife Forum" it changes from a "significant majority" to a "vast majority." This is unsurprising for a few reasons which don't have much to do with the particular knife. 

New products tend to be polarizing;
Nearly everyone LOVES what they just bought; and
The KKF represents a large number of people who don't like Mark Richmond, Richmond knives or CKtG.
I have yet to use an Ultimatum, but bought one (in 52100, it should be here this coming week) on the basis of what I've read and heard.

The first thing you should consider is whether or not you want a "mighty gyuto," because -- at around 200gm and around 3mm thick above the chin -- that's what the Ultimatum is. Which is to say it's about as thick as a Sabatier au carbone, and about as heavy as an au carbone would be if it was a wa-gyuto. I bought mine partly with the idea of exploring the similarities.

From all accounts the finish on the Ultimatum is very good, and so is the standard, OOTB Shaun Fernandez edge. The idea that the Ultimatum is a "project knife" only makes sense for someone who bought one expecting it to be a complete clone of the Masamoto KS. In fact, it only clones the KS's Sabatier-like profile -- but not its thinness, flex at the tip, or many other outstanding qualities. On the other hand, I wouldn't cut the back out of a chicken with a KS.

The moral of the story is that weight and thickness determine destiny, and if you're not interested in a "mighty gyuto" or at least something damn close, don't bother with an Ultimatum. By way of adding a little nuance to the moral, I ordered the Ultimatum with the proviso that if I didn't like it I could turn it around and exchange it for the ever desirable KS. The think about the KS is that my Konosuke HD occupies a too similar niche.

2. _Richmond Artifex_

The Artifex is a good, inexpensive knife, without any pretense to cosmetics, and which punches well about its price. It's hallmark is value. Period. If you want to see what a decent knife but otherwise unspectacular knife is like in Bohler 390, you won't be able to do it any cheaper; but Bohler 390 won't turn an Artifex into a Masamoto KS -- or, for that matter, a Gesshin Ginga, Misono Sweden, Konosuke HH, Sakai Yusuke, etc., etc., etc.

Again, the key is knowing what to expect. If what you really want to do is spend the least amount of money on a decent, right-sized knife born to work the line AND fool around with the alloy, it's a good choice. If you want something else, you want something else. Easy peasy.

3. _Masamoto HC: _

The HC is Masamoto's best western handled, mass produced, carbon gyuto. It's quite probably also the best western handled, mass produced carbon gyuto period. There are other western handled, carbon gyuto which might be as good or even a little better, but they're less mass produced than (a) "semi-custom," and (b) also well out of your price range.

The HC is not a western handled version of the Masamoto KS. They share a similar profile but the HC is thicker and heavier. The KS is made from Shirogami #2, while the HC is made from another, very high end and very pure alloy -- perhaps Takefu VS2. Although they share the same Sabatier type profile, if you really want a KS you won't be happy with an HC.

As with all Masamoto western handled knives, you should ask the retailer to make sure that there are no gaps or cracks on the handle of the knife they ship you. Otherwise F&F and QC are typically Masamoto.

I really, really like the HC, and think they're just that tiny bit better than Masamoto Sweden or the better Sabatier carbons. If I didn't already have so many Sabs at the time I got interested in Japanese knives, I'd have a set of HCs.

4. _MAC Pro:_

The MAC Pro is an excellent western handled, mass-produced, stainless gyuto. It's in the same league as the Masamoto VG; each knife having slightly different strengths and weaknesses, both made from the same (or a very similar) alloy which is either VG2 or something a helluva lot like it. The VG is thinner, narrower, and very agile. The MAC is a bit thicker, but much stiffer. Both have better handles than your CN, your more likely to get good F&F, and I'd argue that both have better profiles as well. On the other hand, a CN is less expensive and has considerably better edge taking and edge holding characteristics.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

BDL will you be posting a review of the Ultimatum?

Out of a MAC pro, HC and Sab Nogent, which would you choose for working in a kitchen, for normal veg prep (dicing carrots, onions etc, no squashes/no breaking down proteins)?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> A few things:
> 
> _ Richmond Ultimatum_
> 
> ...


While I agree with the vast majority of what you've wrote I think this is a misrepresentation. This is one of those times where I have to wonder if your business relationship with Mark interferes with a more realistic view (or review) of a product.

The Richmonds have received a lot of very unfavorable reviews on several forums that spans the entire series.

The assertion that any negative press is because some one doesn't like Mark or CKTG defies all logic. Who buys products from some one they don't like?

KKF is by far the largest kitchen knife forum. If there were THAT many people that didn't like Richmonds, Mark or CKTG it would be very revealing because there is a lot of very skilled knife users there. If that many people don't like the brand or the dealer then there's a valid reason for it.

Lets not forget Ck2G still sells and promotes Moritaka. A brand with a lot of problems of their own. I don't think any ones dislikes the dealer or owner for selling the brand but aside from a select few who have a profit motive fluffing up the brand there's not a lot of positive things to say about it.

While most skilled knife users would not expect a knife in this price range to perform like a KS etc that's pretty much they way they were touted......

Richmonds seem to be a good example of mark-eting run amuck.

Good steel alone will not make a great knife but it can suck many inexperienced buyers into a poor purchase.

The bottom line is that there's enough solid options from every dealer, at every price point that there's really no need to consider problematic brands.

Dave


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

Hey guys - I wasn't even considering a Richmond knife, I was just countering what Dave said about all M390s being out of my price range. I don't want something in such a hard steel because I actually enjoy sharpening my knives.

FWIW, my current 'shortlist' is a MAC, a Masamoto HC, and a Hiromoto AS. As I said though, let me know of any suggestions so I can look at them please


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

kingofkings said:


> The reason I'm considering a MAC, where I wasn't before is because I was talking to someone and they mentioned they are selling theirs, which has barely been used, for 150$, whereas once accounting in for postage, the Masamoto is going to cost just shy of 250$


Are you not in the US? The Masamoto here is running about $50 less than that on sale until the end of the year. However if you can get the MAC for $100 less and it's the right size and series you want I'd be all over that like a Duck on a June bug!

Dave


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

Nope, I'm in the UK.

The MAC is the MBK-95, or the Professional 240mm. I'll probably leave it a few days, looking at this thread then get the MAC if nothing else arises from it


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> BDL will you be posting a review of the Ultimatum?


Yes. It's here, but I haven't had a chance to use it beyond butchering a watermelon. It seems quite nice, but more later. 


> While I agree with the vast majority of what you've wrote I think this is a misrepresentation. This is one of those times where I have to wonder if your business relationship with Mark interferes with a more realistic view (or review) of a product.
> 
> The Richmonds have received a lot of very unfavorable reviews on several forums that spans the entire series.
> 
> ...


Dave -- we share a fundamental agreement, one which makes us a bit unusual in mondo-high-end-Japanese-knives. That is, we're more interested in cooking than knife collecting; more prep and less possession.

However, I disagree with just about everything in the quoted part of your post.

I don't have a business relationship with Mark, and never had. We came very close, but never sealed the deal. I dropped out for personal reasons which had nothing to do with Mark or CKtG. I consider Mark a friend, but don't feel any pressure to shade my comments about anything he sells or says. FWIW, I feel the same about Jon Broida. While I don't know Dave Martell well enough to have a personal relationship with him, I harbor similar respect for him.

I went back and searched the KKF, the KF and Fred's -- the reaction at KF and Fred's to Richmonds in general and the Ultimatum in general is almost universally positive. The reaction at the KKF is mixed. There haven't been many actual buyers, but the term about "over grind" has been tossed around quite a bit, but without being specific about where the grind problem occurred or what harm it did.

Not referring to anyone in particular or pointing any fingers, but that ol' debbil term "over grind" is getting so much use and there are so many tales of people who "fixed it themselves" that I'd suggest putting on your high boots. The BS quotient is rising alarmingly.

Moritaka Shmoritaka. If someone asked my advice about whether or not to get a Moritaka, I'd tell them about the QC problems -- including the dreaded over grind -- and recommend "no." But it's not a crime to sell problematic knives. The only "big" knife store which doesn't sell crap knives as a regular part of its stock is JKI (I can't really be sure about JKI because I don't know every knife Jon sells, but he's all about "selectivity"). And yes, the list of sites selling bunk bochos includes EE, JCK, and Korin as well as some others. IMO, (in alphabetical offer) CKtG, EE and JKI are the best of a very good bunch.

Just in general, it's probably a better idea to be happy that you can find a store that sells knives you like than angry about stores which sell knives you don't like. Take BB&B, WS, and SLT -- please.

I haven't seen any fluff from Mark saying the Ultimatum is the same thing as a Masamoto KS; perhaps you can provide specific examples. Most of the comparisons I've seen have been in terms of their profiles, which are, in fact extremely similar. Also, a lot of the comparisons may have come from me. If I've created any confusion, I apologize. For the record, the profile is not the totality of the knife; and if what you really want is a KS or a knife very much like one, the Ultimatum is not the place to look. The Ultimatum is much thicker, heavier, and stiffer than the KS; and has much different geometry on the faces.

On the other hand, based on a quick impression -- if you want a knife a lot like a Sabatier but with a wa handle and a few other semi-custom refinements, the Ultimatum may well be your blade.

You need to take another look at the KKF in terms of its antipathy to Richmond Knives and Mark Richmond personally. A great many people there -- most, I think -- won't even use his name; and that sort of childishness doesn't breed much confidence with me. Further, my impression is that _most_ of the antipathy to Richmond Knives is from people who haven't used them.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> FWIW, my current 'shortlist' is a MAC, a Masamoto HC, and a Hiromoto AS. As I said though, let me know of any suggestions so I can look at them please


Before listing scores of knives, it would be helpful to limit the field somewhat. I gather you're not considering ordering from the US because of the additional costs. Which retailers are you considering?

_Re the Hiromoto:_

If you look online at the blogs and forums you'll find a lot of love for the Hiromoto AS. In my opinion the line is good but overrated. Before getting specific about what I don't like let me be very clear that my opinion is just an opinion and not the last word.

First, even though it's a prestige alloy, Aogami Super, isn't all that super. Don't get me wrong, it's a good alloy to have as the hagane in a san-mai sandwich, but it's not better than any of the other high-end jiganes. For a lot of reasons, the knife won't sharpen easier, take a better edge, or hold it longer than knives made with other jigane choices, including the VG-10 in a Tojiro DP. It also won't do any of that stuff enough better than the MAC or Masamoto (for instance) to bother putting up with the Hiromotos' other shortcomings.

Second, the gyuto ergonomics are mediocre at best. The profiles aren't particularly good. I had two AS gyuto (240mm and 270) and wasn't in love with their agility at either length; the belly's geometry had me lifting the knife -- especially the point -- too high to suit my bog-standard French style action. Hiromoto handles border on "suck;" they're too narrow and too short. Then there's the issue of san-mai numbness (which may or may not bother you). Some other stuff too, but it's been so long...

Third, Hiromoto QC and F&F is variable.
BDL


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

If you decide on the Masamoto HC and you are ordering from a US dealer order soon. Masamoto is on sale here right now. When Korin does their fall 15% off sale other dealers usually just match those prices and that ends 12-31. Check Korin for freight price comparison. They do a much better job hand selecting their inventory so your less likely to end up with a damaged handle. If Koki is the same price @ JCK I'd suggest that route over any US store. He ships EMS which is much faster and all the times I've shippped direct from Japan via EMS I've never had an issue.

$100 is a nice savings on the Mac. Almost enough to buy another knife.

Dave


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

Don't Korin only stock the VG and VC range? 

It still comes to around the same as from JCK, and when I emailed him about the price difference he offered me a free magnolia wood saya with the HC. 

And you're right, getting the MAC would allow me to get a petty if I want too, for the same price as just for a gyuto. But, if the Masamoto would be a higher quality gyuto that I'm less likely to want to replace in 12 months, i'd rather just get that. 

What do you guys think, which is the 'better' knife?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

rdm magic said:


> It still comes to around the same as from JCK, and when I emailed him about the price difference he offered me a free magnolia wood saya with the HC.


NICE! It always pays to shoot an email and ask. As far as the MAC being $100 less I was referring KingofKings post about grabbing a MAC for $100 less used. I got the two of you confused. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif

Dave


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> I don't have a business relationship with Mark, and never had.





> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*
> 
> Disclosure: I have a commercial relationship with CKtG, writing for their newsletter and doing some equipment testing/reviewing.


 I'm glad we cleared that up because I can certainly pull several other quotes from your posts where you very specifically said you have a working relationship and/or business relationship with Ck2g. Your words compadre.

Either way I think it's a major streeeeeeetch and just a little knuckin futty to suggest an entire forum is biased against a single vendor. That certainly hasn't been my experience on KKF but again if it were true that's pretty revealing because it's by far the biggest kitchen knife forum going by traffic. That's a lot of angry people!

Antipathy from lack of experience is bound to exist but that blade cuts both ways. I recall seeing a stunning proclamation in the last week or so about how great Richmonds are only to be followed up with a disclaimer about never having used one. Go figure.

Either way I agree, There's a lot of good choices from all dealers and some truly great ones from most dealers. IMO that means there's no need to focus on the float-some and jet-some that belongs in the project bin. You will just have to forgive me for being amused by your consistent postings about "odd advice" from Korin while you promote another that still suggests Moritaka with all it's problems. To me that seems VERY odd advice to some one asking about what knife to buy. I'm sure we both know not many are fixing overground edges themselves, if it can be done at all. 

Hey I'm just a simple cook and I subscribe to a simple theory...If it walks like a Duck, Flies like a Duck, Then it's probably a.....


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## wubu (Oct 11, 2012)

Nice, a quote from February...
Anyway, Korin does have the HC range


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Wubu said:


> Nice, a quote from February...


I'm thinkin Feb falls well within the range of "never"....

Either way it would be prudent to price freight from each vendor but given the saya offer I'd expect Koki to be the best deal if the used MAC wasn't an option.

Dave


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

rdm magic said:


> Don't Korin only stock the VG and VC range?
> 
> It still comes to around the same as from JCK, and when I emailed him about the price difference he offered me a free magnolia wood saya with the HC.
> 
> ...


 Korin sells both the VG (stainless) and HC Masamotos. Korin calls the HCs "Virgin Carbon." I don't know why but am sure it makes sense to them.

I like the Sabatier like profile and relative thinness of the Masamotos compared to the MAC -- which doesn't feel quite as agile to me. I also prefer carbon to the alloy used in both the MAC and Masamoto VG -- but that's me. I think that the MAC pro handle is somewhat better than the Masamoto handle, and the MAC is certainly stiffer. MAC has a really good factory warranty, as well as incredibly good factory support here in the US -- which is important if you're buying from a dealer in another country or from one who isn't known for great or quick response.

I'm not sure what MAC support is like in the UK or Europe. I know a guy from here who lives in Denmark, bought a MAC, had some problems with handle fit and chipping and ended up dealing with MAC USA -- but I'm not sure if that was because there's no support in Europe or he just couldn't find it.

The MAC Pro is an excellent "first good knife," but -- if you can live with carbon -- the Masamoto HC is better.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Benuser said:


> Not only Korin calls the HC "Virgin Carbon", JCK and CKTG do the same. Just in the case of CKTG the mention has been lost in the CT page but is still there.
> http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mactca.html


The CT and HC are both "virgin," steels in the sense that the iron contribution is entirely from mines and not from recycling. The difference between the alloys is that HC's is purer than CT's.

JCK calls HC "Highest Virgin Steel," which can be a little confusing, but refers to the series as "HC" which is the same way Masamoto has it in its catalog.

CKtG's CT entry is somewhat confusing because it erroneously refers to HC instead of CT -- and we know that's wrong because only the CTs have red sandalwood handles, the HC handles used to be ebony but are now black pakka. But the entry correctly calls the alloy "virgin" (i.e., no recycled iron or steel) as opposed to "Virgin" (as in a trade name), which ought to help clarify but only complicates.

In my opinion, referring to the lines as HC and CT in English is less confusing without inserting "Virgin" into the names or "virgin" into the description without defining the term. But it's such a small thing, and "a rose by any name would smell as sweet." As long as we agree on which one we're talking about at any given time, who cares?

_Paranthetically and By Way of Uncertain Speculation: _

I think, but _am not sure_, that CT is Takefu VS and HC is Takefu VS2. FWIW, VS2 is very high end, as good as Hitachi's "White #2." Whether they're Takefu steels or not, they're both good stuff and whatverthehell Masamoto uses for CT is a good alloy and whateverthell they use for HC is a very good alloy indeed. The primary distinctions are that the HC stuff is less reactive and has better edge taking properties. FWIW, the CT line is more complete with a huge selection of western profiles (JCK doesn't show them all, but I think they'll get you whatever you want; I'm not sure what Mark can or will do for you if you want something other than a 240 or 270mm gyuto; while Korin doesn't carry the CT line at all). CTs are good knives and too often overlooked, while the HCs are as good as mass produced knives get.

Hope this clarifies,

BDL


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## kingofkings (May 1, 2012)

While we're talking about the differences between lines of knives, could someone enlighten me to the difference between MAC Pros and MAC Ultimates?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Again, the difference is primarily the alloy; but in the case of the Ultimates vs the Pros, it's more the identity of the alloy than its quality. The Ultimate's has more tungsten, is slightly stronger, and is hardened just a skosh more. The Ultimate has better cosmetics as well -- or at least MAC has gone to some trouble with them. The Pro is either VG2 or something a helluva lot like it. To give it some context, it's got a very good balance of strength and toughness (excellent really), is better than AUS8, doesn't seem to be one of the prevalent 440Cs, but it's not VG10, 19C27, or any of the other super-hyped alloys. And whatever it is, it's also a hulluva lot like whateverthehell Masamoto uses in its VG series -- which is a "proprietary" VG that might as well be VG2 in the same way that Henckels "proprietary" steel might as well be X50CrMoV15.

I used to think the Ultimate was VG7, but have changed my opinion to "I don't know." [Don't you just love alloy guessing?]

MAC doesn't release Rockwell "C" hardness numbers but the Pro acts as though it were just below 60, while the Ultimate acts as if it were just above. In other words, very similar. Like other MACs they're characteristically pretty tough and both knives will tend to roll the edges rather than chip them in situations which might be problematic for some other knives (or at least so I'm told), and both knives can be profitably steeled.

I've never owned a Ultimate or used one for any length of time. The one I knew best belonged to an executive chef who was a friend of a friend which I fooled with for a few minutes, and sharpened as a favor to my friend who normally did it for his friend but was out of town. Complicated enough for you? Not to get back to the point or anything, but based on that very brief acquaintance I don't think the Ultimate is worth the extra money compared to the Pro; except maybe as a gift to someone who loves MACs and "nothing but the best" will do.

While we're on the subject of MAC alloys, the Superior's is the same as the Pro's, but the Superior doesn't have anywhere near the same feel and -- in an opinion backed by significantly more experience -- you're better off with the Pro chef's knife if you can afford it. The Superior bread (SB 105) on the other hand is as good as it gets, and the little 5" parer is an excellent deal if you want a 5" knife.

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

kingofkings said:


> While we're talking about the differences between lines of knives, could someone enlighten me to the difference between MAC Pros and MAC Ultimates?


The Pro is a nice working knife but if you are buying new it's over priced compared to what's available today in the $150-$200 range. The Superior feels like a stamped knife and while I'm not a big fan of the Pro either it is a nice step up from the superior. Neither one is made from an alloy worth talking much about, not that it will matter of it fits your price point and you like it.

Dave


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