# Buying Cookware



## mudbug

Many of you pros already have your favorite pieces. This is for anyone who may be in the market for cookware.

Consider the amount you are wanting to invest. If you're on a budget, you may just want to invest in one or two quality pieces. It really depends on how much money you want to spend and how much it matters to you.

Investing in high quality pots and pans that will last you the rest of your life would be the best investment in the long run. Look for those with lifetime warranties and consider what professional chefs use (All-Clad).










There are a handful of high quality cookware lines (All-Clad, Berndes, Le Creuset) available and hundreds of others that aren't so good. All-Clad & Le Creuset would be the top of the line cookware and heat the fastest.


















If you don't want to spend the money on All-Clad, consider "Berndes" made in Germany. Awarded a BEST BUY by Consumers Digest for a Second Time.










Here are several articles which should give you a good idea of what to look for and what to avoid.

*The Ins and Outs of Pots and Pans

Get a Handle on Pots and Pans

What a Cook Wants: Pots and Pans

So you'd like to... be a real man in the kitchen

Choosing the Right Saucepan
*

What kinds of cookware do you use and prefer over others and why?

What are your "most used" pieces?


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## roon

Well I couldn't really pick just one of the choices listed, because what I use depends on what I'm cooking...I have a stainless steel stock-pot. I love cast iron for pan-frying and dutch-oven style cooking. For most everything else, I have anodized aluminum cookware- with non-stick surfaces. I like them because they're non-stick, for one, but my pots, pans, and lids are also oven safe to 350F. A lifetime guarantee also helps.


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## kokopuffs

All Clad pots and pans including their Copper Chef line are on sale right now at OUTLETS ONLINE!

I still want to get a couple of pieces by Mauviel, however.

Here's the url:

https://www.outletsonline.com/cgi-bi...301+1013729282


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## kylew

I have a couple of pieces of All-Clad; my raosting pan and a new paella pan. Most of my cookware is Cuisinart Everyday Stainless. It heats pretty quickly and evenly and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to buy. I agree that buying sets is probably not the way to go. Buy good stuff a piece or two at a time. Oh, buy the way, I also own a few cast iron skillets. Nothing like 'em


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## crane

I have to say that I voted for All-Clad, because that is what my family used, and it is what I mostly have right now. However, the absolute best pan I have every used and is my 11" Demeyere Sirroco fry pan. Go to the website and you'll see the quality that goes into these pans.


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## peachcreek

Shop around. The longer the better. Decide what you want and wait till you find that piece or set for a decent price. I have different types of pots and pans for work and home, but got a decent price for just about everything. My last large pan purchase was for home. A department store in the area went out of business and had everything in their kitchenware section at really good prices. I got a 14 piece set of Farberware Millenium cookware for $98.00, probably about their cost. I also look for used stuff through restaurant supply places. I got a heavy Vollrath 3-ply stainless 20 qt stockpot for $50.00 in very good shape,with lid. For saute pans, uncoated or non-stick, restaurant supply places are the way to go if beauty isn't an issue. A Wearever, or Torowear or Vollrath saute pan is practically home-cook proof. I also collect cookware from second hand places. I have gotten several pieces of Le Creuset in perfect shape-no chips, no rust, no cracks and paid maybe $1.00 each. My favorite fondue pot is a 1qt Le Creuset. I have a pretty good collection of my prize cookware-my copper pots, pans and bowls. And yes, I use them.


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## jock

I'm like roon, depends on what I'm cooking. However, about 15 years ago my mother in law gave us a set of Magnalite as a house warming gift. I don't think anything heats faster than that. A couple of years ago I won a set of All Clad stainless in a drawing. I thought all my birthdays had come at once. It is fantastic. I have an assortment of Wearever and other pieces that I will continue to add to. You can never have too many. 
:bounce: :bounce:   :chef: 

Jock


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## panini

In the bakery we use the restaurant issue wearever for most utility, dbl boiler,sauces,choux paste etc. for sugar we use copper and for creams we use straight stainless.
I can't remember how many yrs. I have had my all clad at home. They are used every day, they look like the day they were bought. 36" gas and I love them for what I do. even heating etc.
I just picked up a couple of used 2qt 1qt on ebay


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## bouland

I still favor French copper over other all the fancy American brands. As I wrote over a year ago, besides working great and lasting a long time, they also can be had for less money. please read before you spend more money on lesser quality pots.


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## shroomgirl

I have a set of Scan Pans...they are pretty good, got a life time warantee and I have returned pots....
The huge skillet is indispensible.
Cast Iron!!! What can replace that for frying chicken?
Then the assortment of odds and ends...
One of my least favs is enamel coated pans.
I've recently cooked on an induction stove and for some stupid reason my rice continually sticks to the pan.....stupid stove.


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## pete

I voted for All-clad because that is my everyday cookware for the most part and I love it. But as others have mentioned, I could never do away with my cast iron skillet. It is the best. It belonged to my grandmother, then my mom and now me. It is truly a great piece. I would also love to own a couple of Le Cruset pieces but they are so expensive. Someday, maybe.


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## mudbug

Pete,

About 7 years ago I could have had the exact set pictured above (lovingly pre-owned) for all of $35.00 at a garage sale in Pittsburg, KS of all places. Yes, you read that correctly. Now I wouldn't be able to buy half a lid for that price. 

This was before I was interested in cooking or let alone had any knowledge of it's quality. I also missed out on a brand new 7 piece All-Clad set for $100 still in the box.

NEVER again.


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## isa

Pete,


At the local Costco you can find le Creuset at a very good price. I seem to recall 100$ for three pans.


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## pete

WOW! That is a great price, but are you sure that it was Le Cruset. I know of a couple of knock offs that are pretty cheap, but not nearly the quality. The porcelin coating on these is very weak and cracks and chips very easily.

I would also hate to think of all the great deals, at garage sales, that I have passed up, years ago, not knowing what I know now!!

Actually the only pieces of Le Cruset that I really, really, want are one of their terrines (the long rectangular one), one of their "dutch ovens", and their paella pan with lid. But, if anyone were to buy me any of it (hint, hint )I certainly won't mind. LOL!!!


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## catciao

Although I voted All-Clad since most of my pieces are that brand, I use different pans for specific cooking methods. As mentioned by others, I wouldn't dream of using anything but my Le Creuset dutch oven for stews and soups or my Calphelon NS Dutch Oven for roasting. I waited close to three years before buying my first All Clad and even then it was on Ebay at a reasonable price.


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## suzanne

Most of my Le Creuset is over 30 years old -- a little chipped, a little cracked, not much enamel left on the bottom of the dutch oven, but they all still work fine. (My husband will ONLY use the 2Q casserole for his excellent oatmeal!)

The All-clad is a lot newer, mostly bought on sale at Broadway Panhandler's "Yard Sale" where they unload stuff even cheaper than usual. Between these two brands, I'm set for the next 30 years, I should live so long. Besides fabulous heating properties, they clean up so easily -- just soak if anything sticks, and it comes right off. And cleaning up is almost as important to me as cooking. Certainly as necessary!

BTW: my Magnalite covered 10" frying pan (originally "non-stick") is still going strong after 34+1/2 years -- no warping, even! Too bad the plastic handle means it can't go in the oven. Then again, maybe that's one reason it's lasted this long.


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## isa

Yes I am sure it's Le Creuset. If you're ever in town, I'll take you shopping!  The Costco package had a dutch oven, a pan and something else I can't recall. I am sure there was no terrine or paella dish. But with the exchange, you might be able to get a good deal elsewhere.


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## lotuscakestudio

I'm with KyleW. When my husband and I shopped around for cookware, we got a set of Cuisinart Everyday Stainless with the copper sandwich layer thing. The price was right, and we even use all the pieces it came with. There were similar sets that had strange sizes we would never use and I think that is just plain weird to me (or sets that have two saucepans that are almost the same size, etc.)


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## lotuscakestudio

P.S. If my husband could vote, he would vote for the wok. Almost anything he makes is in a wok.


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## suzanne

One of my All-clads is pretty much like a flat-bottomed wok, with a domed cover. Yeah, I use it A LOT. All the advantages of both, for heat retention up the sides, and easy clean-up after. In fact, I think this may have been the first AC I ever bought.


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## chiffonade

Remember, the right piece for the right job. This means that if a person wants to make real cornbread, you need a well-seasoned black cast iron pan but if you want to quickly saute something, stainless steel rises to the top as the cookware of choice. Stainless will give you "goodies" on the bottom of the pan (for a pan sauce), unlike non-stick.

For someone who needs to set up a new kitchen or make a bulk purchase, keep in mind:

* Stainless Steel is about the easiest to care for.

* Beware of "sets" because they have some useless pieces.

* Look for cookware that will last. Riveted handles are a must. Hefty, sandwiched bottom construction will afford good heat distribution. Look for cookware with tightly fitting lids and edges that will pour.

* Name brands are great but make sure they meet your criteria.


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## risa

I actually learned about this from Nicko. There are Le Creuset outlets. Here are their locations: Le Creuste Outlet Stores

I've never been, so I don't know what prices are like, but maybe those who are interested can ask Nicko.


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## kylew

I was in a Le Creuset outlet store yesterday. The prices were OK. Something that I paid $80 + Shipping for at cooking.com was $72 at the outlet.


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## brook

Periodically at bettycrocker.com, I have seen selected Le Creuset pots for very good prices. Also, Le Creuset outlet stores have bi-annual (I think) sales and are willing to ship items. Though the items often are seconds, I couldn't find the flaw in the pot I bought.

I have a variety of brands of pots (no all-clad pieces yet), but am most fond of the Sitram "catering line". From the way they look all-clad and Sitram appear to be similar.


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## kimmie

is quite difficult. I voted for Cooper but I also love All-Clad! and I enjoy some LeCreuset as well!


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## lwunderlich

I have a polyglot of pans, aluminum with non-stick (the set is Wearever with the exhaust lids), cast iron, stainless that has either a copper or aluminum core, etc., etc. and if I could find my 10 inch cast iron skillet it would be one of my favorites again (I moved). I just bought an 8 qt. stainless steel stock pot that I know will become one of my favorites. Made up a large batch of minestrone yesterday, and it was a joy to cook in that pan. I really have a hard time not buying more pans even though I DO NOT have a place to store them. The stock pot is in my bedroom. There is not one inch of space, even on the counters, in my dinky kitchen in which to store another cooking utensil. But, will that stop me, I doubt it.


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## catciao

lwunderlich

I have a small kitchen with little storage but that doesn't' stop me from buying new pieces. I have found two spots to hang my All-Clad pans that get them out of the way but always ready to be used- Thank God for tall ceilings - one is above a window and the other is high over the range. I used simple rods and hooks from IKEA instead of expensive pot racks. My stock pots and heavy Le Creuset are in the cabinets. I love the look and get many compliments on the style. Maybe it will work for you?


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## kylew

I think we should have a small kitchen contest!


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## kimmie

I just love it!


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## catciao

Kyle - you definately have a small kitchen. What's the biggest meal you've ever cooked in it?


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## kylew

Dinner for 2! It's the baking that kills me. I tend to bake for the 12th Mountain Division


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## alexia

Yes, it's small. But I see room for LOTS more equipment.


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## kylew

You did notice that half of my kitchen was in my living room, didn't you Alexia?


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## alexia

Why the half measure? Do you really need a living room?


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## azrael

my Skillet is Cast Iron (lodge)
my frying pan is aluminum with teflon (Tefal)

the majority of my pots and saucepans are stainless steel with an aluminum disk on the bottom (WMF)

My deepfryer is anodized aluminum (IKEA)

My pressure cooker is stainless steel (T-fal)


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## pete

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that I wouldn't mind if someone bought me a Le Cruset pot or 2. Well, it is months later, and I still haven't seen a package arrive at my door. Don't you people get a hint when one is dropped!!!!  :bounce:


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## miele

I will never complain about the size of my kitchen again! 

I'm not going to vote, because as a gift I got a set of Calphalon Commercial. I like it a lot, but haven't used/tried anything else except Revere Ware.


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## kylew

My Ex GF did just that for my last birthday  An 8 3/4 Qt. Round monster! It's very cool!


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## bullyinny

HACKMAN!

From Finland...

Not your everyday cookware and definitely more geared towards the design loving enthusiast, they make a great product.
For everyday use I think ALL-Clad does the trick - it just doesn't look beautiful.

Boy did I just expose myself as a wannabe or what?


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## bryangx

I have a pretty complete collection of the high-end Calphalon lines: Commercial Nonstick or Hard Anodized. Good stuff. I also have a few All-Clad Stainless pots and frypans, and they're also very nice. 

But the nonstick coating on the Calphalon makes clean-up so easy.


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## eatpaella

We are a new company offering paella cookware and accessories to UK Customers.

http://www.eatpaella.co.uk


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## deltadoc

I bought the all-clad 7-pc set some years ago, 8 qt. stock pot with cover, 1 & 2 qt sauce pans with cover, and a frying pan with curved edges.

Then Dayton's had a sale, and we got the 20-qt stock pot with cover...usually something like $450, and we got it for $300.

At Williams-Sonoma, we have on order a 6-qt Saute pan with cover. Been wanting that for a long time.

Also have 3 cast iron skillets (little tiny one, a bigger one, and BIG one!) that I inherited from Mom who inherited them from her Mom. Mom didn't keep them up well, and the mid size one is a bit pitted, but still usable.

Also got a 20 or 22 qt stainless steel one (don't remember the brand) from Superior Products. Was about $99, but I only do stocks in it, as it has a tendency to scorch on the bottom with anything like sauces.

I wish I could get a bigger All-clad stock pot than the 20-Qt one. 

Almost forgot, we got some sort of ceramic dish set with heavy glass covers, maybe 25 years ago, and we use them sometimes for baking, although I think I remember they can be used on the stovetop too.

And an old Farberware cheap set that has disintegrated for the most part over the last 35 years, which we use only for boiling canning lids in!
deltadoc


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## cheflayne

I have a full line of cast iron pans, most older than me, some cast by my Dad in college. Functional and sentimental. I also have a full line of stainless aluminum core bonded pans made by Atlas Spinning of South San Francisco. Feel good in my hand, quick even heat, durable, easy to clean.


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## ambrosiafood

I agree. There is nothing better than copper, although I do like Le Creuset and All Clad for some purposes. I I also like Vollrath stainless steel aluminum clad stockpots, and their stainless steel bowls, colanders, etc.


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## mikelm

My REALLY favorites are several Magnalite Professional Stainless pans I picked up over time at an outlet store. They're the equivalent of All-Clad, except the inner core is copper, not aluminum.

They quit making them...

Most of the rest are All-Clad. I've got a Bodum cast-iron wok with non-stick interior that's pretty cool. Flat bottom, use it on a ceramic-top electric stove. It's about $90 at Williams-Sonoma, but I rummaged around on the Internet and found it for about $52.

I've got several Calphalon anodized pots- can't understand what people see in them- hard to clean, non-dishwasher safe, acids take the coating off. (They were gifts.)

Hang 'em up for decoration.

Mike


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## stephan.mueller

Hi everybody

look at staub.fr . Here you find cookware similar to Le Creuset. I like it a lot

Greetings Stephan


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## de_franza

Forgive a noob....

How's THIS cookware? http://www.macys.com/catalog/product...Type=EverGreen

It's stainless steel, so it won't be reactive, with an aluminum core in the bottom "for even heat distribuion"

Thanks in advance!


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## chefcookie

I have a 9 piece All Clad stainless set, a Le Cruset dutch oven, two cast iron skillets, and two Ceramiguard professional non-stick pans. I also have an assortment of large stainless/aluminum bottom stock pots. I strongly reccomend staying away from aluminum as much as possible, it taints your flavor, turns garlic and onions blue, and some studies show it may contribute to long term illnesses such as alsheimers. I also believe in using non-stick pans ONLY WHEN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!!! I have a couple and use them only for things like omelettes and frittatas. I have also found that no matter how nice you are to them and how much you pay for them, they simply won't be around that long (as soon as the non-stick coating surface is compromised its all over!). I love knowing that someday my great, great, great, great gandchildren will be able to use my All Clad stuff and even possibly the Le Cruset as well (the good old cast iron I own is allready a big hand-me-down). If you're on a budget and you don't have anything good old Revereware is always good, stainless with a copper bottom, but it's awfully thin! Be careful, especially if you work on electric ranges at home, YUK!


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## pinot

I had a few Le Creuset pans , but sold them on Ebay . I use hackman saucepans , but my favourite pans are the raw heavy steel ones that I bought from the commercial Chef supplies shop in Sydney. They are French. Work great , but I have had a bit of trouble getting them well seasoned (but from reading this thread I maybe cleaning them too harshly). More often than not in our climate I just use them on the BBQ !
I have one non-stick pan (analon)for cooking odd stuff for th kids in a hurry.

I must also admit to liking my Pyrex baking dish which I bake whole chickens in, ect. It seems totally indestructable ! I also have a non stick baking dish that all peeled after about the 4th use. I hit it with sand paper and now have it well seasoned and it works ok.

Other than that I use a steel wok , which imroves with every use . Again mostly used on the BBQ.


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## pinot

Actually , just to be clear , should steel fry pans be seasoned and cleaned exactly the same way as cast iron ?


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## coffee4you2

Dear Cooking Enthusiasts

Let me introduce myself : I'm Patrick from Belgium, where the FALK Copper Cookware is produced.

I'm offering at an exceptional price a set of 9 pieces, see details below.

Why? I was storing this and other items in a warehousing service in San Francisco but the owner changed and the new one made a mess of it.
So now he cancelled my service.

I have one set left there and would like to offer it at a very special price to empty my remaining inventory.

Have a look at it in my eBayStore :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=4311137885

There is an auction going on for an extra discount coupon of 150.00 USD :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=4353309137

This set would cost more than 1100.00 USD if bought through the FALK.COM website.

You will read lots of very usefull info about copper cookware in the store listing.

I hope someone of you will be very happy to read about this!
..
Patrick
www.coffee4you.com


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## hipjoint

i don't know where all of you find all clad in a commercial kitchen, but i find very few such pieces in the restaurants i go to (the ones where you can take a date and the two of you can eat and split some wine for less than $100). in these restaurants i find lots of "blue handles", the commercial aluminum cookware mostly from lincoln/wearever with the excalibur lining or maybe natural aluminum. for the cost of one all clad, you can get 4 or 5 of the commercial wearevers. restaurants are all about getting the results you want for the least amount of money spent, so low price with some measure of durability is important. i bought several pieces of the blue handles with the excalibur lining (i think they call it dura-coat) and they are now my everyday pans.


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## michalik

Does anyone know where to find in the US the heavy steel cookware Pinot is mentioning?They are used in France by the pros & have pretty much the properties of the wok.I cannot find enything on the internet.


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## cooky

Mudbug,
wonderful post with all the pics!!!
Personally I prefer to use wooden pieces whenever possible. I don´t like aluminium too much. Nowadays we are having here a tendency towards using WOK. I have not jumped on that tendency yet but I might. The products seem to be fine and the recipes one can do with them seem to be easy and healthy. I do like a lot using pans - not for frying, though, but for "cooking" and heating vegetables in water. It appears to be good when it´s ready.

Cheers


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## metrakay

I used to have Le Cruset and I loved it, but when I put my kitchen in for licensing, the health department told me I couldn't used "enamelled cookware" in a licensed kitchen because it could chip and harbor bacteria. They said it was a nationwide law, and made me get rid of it. Anybody got any facts to counter that for me to show the inspector? I'd love to collect it all back from my relatives. I emailed Le Cruset about it, but they never got back with me.


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## beefcheeks

I love my All Clad set. I hope to get some All Clad saute pans soon. I'm using the commercial quality saute pans I bought from Sam's. It seems to do the trick.


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## pgram

I used to cook with a 30 year old set of Faberware before I knew that there were better choices on the market. I have some individual pieces of Cuisinart which are a huge improvement! I had the opportunity to cook with an All-Clad pan that I gave to my mom as a present and I prefer that over my Cuisinart, but alas, I can't afford to upgrade at this time.

The same holds true for my knives. I didn't know what a good knife was until I bought myself a Hinckle. However, I recently got my hands on some R.H. Forschners. Half the price and twice the knife! It's amazing how much of a difference good equipment can make a job easier!!!


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## cooky

Oh, really?!
Haven t tried these yet. Thank you for the tipp. It s kind of funny one might have to go to a forum for learning about which knives to use or not to use but it s very helpful to find these resources of knowledge here. 
Thanks a lot!

"Each moment spent searching is also a moment spent finding."
The Alchemist, http://www.warriorofthelight.com


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## redace1960

a word about garage-sale finds:

starting with le creuset. i bought a used casserole and two saucepans...during a moment of exuberance in a very small kitchen i splashed some icewater onto a hot saucepan and a dime-sized chip spalled off that was sharp as a razor! i think there must have been an imperceptable hairline crack already in it that was filled with old grease or something that helped the process along. still, with a crawling baby around i got rid of the stuff in case it happened again and i wasn't able to find the shard.

same goes for used pyrex bakeware (although i dont see anyone mentioning pyrex..your dirty little secret, perhaps?? although i suspect the following might be why nobody uses it). it may have been dropped at some time and caused a 'faultline' that you can't see-but tap it just right and it will split-or get it hot enough, or let one corner touch the side of the oven and it fails catastrophically. it's happened to me!

test heavy steel ware by setting it on a flat surface. if its tippy at all, or makes a 'clack' sound instead of a 'ding' sound when you tap it, pass it up. 'clack' means that the bottom of the pan is no longer perfectly flat, and nothing is worse than a hot spot in a steel pan.

kylew-dang, granny! you've got me beat. the smallest kitchen i ever had was the one i mentioned in the first paragraph...i could , by standing at the sink, reach out the window over to the left and pick flowers off the neibors honeysuckle- reach over with the right and flip a pancake at the stove; turn 90 degrees and take a beer out of the fridge. but i did have one drawer, one cabinet and one cupboard. now you envy me, huh. :smoking:


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## nolanfelix

Check out www.lifeware.us for all the technical info. I'm not here to talk about all the health benefits of Lifeware, just the way the food cooks and tastes. I recently purchased a 6 piece set directly from the website and used it for the first time today 12/30/05. I used the large pan to cook chicken breasts and they were absolutely, without question, the best chicken breasts that I've ever cooked/eaten. There was little if any shrinkage of the chicken and without being marinated, they were they juiciest chicken breasts I've ever eaten. I've tried, through local tastings, bacon, zuccinni, carrots and french fries cooked with the enhanced cookware. I wouldn't believe it would be such a drastic difference, if I hadn't seen and tasted it myself. Do yourself a favor and check out the above website. This cookware is going to make everything currently on the market obsolete. It is the best looking, most durable looking cookware I've ever seen


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## castironchef

Looks like SPAM to me. Three posts, all for the same product and website, not to mention the dubious health claims.

Beware.


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## gonefishin

I could really use some help on this subject...


More and more...I'm loving my cast iron skillet (well well well seasoned). Everything I throw in there just cooks so well. Corn bread has a nice crust...it sears any food like no other pan can...and it just cooks so well without burning food.


I do intend to pick up a Le Creuset dutch oven for the benefits of cast iron. But I am concerned about the enamel coating cracking. If this is the case...wouldn't I be best off with a really well seasoned cast iron dutch oven? 

For my main set of pans I use the older Calphalon commercial. I've tried a few of their newer pans (proffesional series stick and non-stick and ONE non-stick series) but thought they both were far under achievers. I'll keep my old Calphalon...but will be looking else where in the future. 
On the same note...it looks like a lot of manufacturers are jumping on the growing popularity of cooking with pans that are aimed with marketing rather than cooking in mind. Could this be a new trend? I hope not

I only use non-stick pans for eggs and other foods that require non-stick surfaces. But recently I've been SO impressed with some Aubecq non-stick pans (Karat series) that I bought three more to have as back-up should the current one not hold up. I bought them for a great price at a Target owned HOME GOODS store. They've also got Le Creuset pans at times at good prices (enamel coated steel, enamel coated cast iron and "raw" cast iron).

still confused on my next purchase??? Maybe an enameled cast iron dutch oven or a "raw" dutch oven. Not sure.

thanks guys and gals,

dan


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## mannlicher

Most of my cookware is copper clad, either AllClad, CopperChef, or Mauviel. I do have a few pots and pans of other brands and materials. I really like Calphelon, and I use a fair amount of LaCruset. I still use my collection of antique ( or at least, very old) Pyrex Flameware. A favorite for everyday cooking is the Cuisanart line. Still, its hard to beat an old Griswold skillet or pot. I went back to the kitchen to count my stuff. It looks like over 60 pcs, in various materials and brands. Hmmmm, time to go shopping :crazy:


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## anny

Well!!! M planning to buy Cookware Set and came across Cuisinart Chef's Classic Stainless 10-Piece…..at amazon.com price is $33.99 I also tried searching for some reviews and this sitehttp://www.inods.com is giving some good info …….just check and help me out!!! Thankz

*:look: *


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## mikelm

Can't make Kyle's link work.

Bet my kitchen is smaller, though... 8' x 13'. But, we had a completely custom job put in when we we remodeled the condo and it's a heckof a nice kitchen. I made a lot of the cabinets myself, working in the custom cabinet shop my younger son was running at the time. Maple Shaker-style cabinets, roll-out pantry cabinet, granite counter-tops, tile floor and backsplashes. Nice appliances. big sink, Grohe faucets, lots of lights. 

Lot of fun to work in.

But, not very large.

Mike


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## pgram

Anny,

That price is too good to be true! Are you sure the price isn't $129.99. That's about the lowest price I can find for the 10-piece set. Even at that price, it's a great deal. I love my Cuisinart!

Pam


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## texasflute

My cookware is a hodge-podge of most everything. I buy the pot for the task. I have mostly cast-iron, some old, some not. I have a lot of LeCrueset, too. My (non-cast iron) frypans are mostly Calphalon non-stick or Berndes. My saucepans are old (20+ years) cuisinart, which are much heavier than today's cuisinart in addition to some all-clad, anolon, bodum, berndes and circulon. My big stock pots are Calphalon and a Robert Welch design Stainless Steel pot from the U.K. The Robert Welch pot is very tall-it is a great pot for making jams and jellies (I did that today).

Most of my LeCrueset has been picked up in odd places. I got the 7qt. oval pot w/lid for $12 at a flea market in Nashville, TN. :roll: It was like new. I've gotten some at outlets and some at antiques stores. I'm always on the lookout for a new piece at a good price.


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## mumu

HI,

tHIS MIGHT SEEM LIKE A DUMB QUESTION,but i would like to know why some companys sell pot sets meaning pots and pans ,and other places call and sell them as pan sets meaning pots and pans in set? The question comes to me because i always thought a pot was deep and had two handles on sides,and a pan not deep with one long handle,not meaning the above. So my theory was in a pan set only pans and a pot set pots. What am i not understanding? Also some receipes after a certain mention of item to use have pot/pan , like dutch oven pot/pan? Meaning?


thanks for any help!
mumu


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## dmt

We purchased a set, and some open stock of Calphalon Tri-Ply to replace our 30+ year old Farberware cookware.

The primary reason for this change was that we replaced our old POS electric coil top range with a nice new Kenmore smooth top, and after so many years of being subjected to the uneveness of those old coils, the Farberware had become distinctly "un-flat". In otherwords, the flat top cooking surface wouldn't evenly heat the pots or pans.

The change was necessary, we asked for suggestions, made our less than scientific assessment, and have been absolutely thrilled with the perfromance of the Calphalon. A new stove, and un-abused cookware work pretty well together, so this might be more a function of all the pieces working correctly, as opposed to a bunch of little things being not right causing a poor experience (the old stove and pans).

It cooks well, cleans up relatively easily, and the glass lids make monitoring your food as it cooks quite easy. (sometimes the old adage "Out of sight, out of mind" creates a stinky mess...)

It wasn't cheap, but we should be pretty much through buying cookware forever.

We also have a large collection of cast iron, but don't dare use it on the glass top, for fear of scratching the top. I've been thinking about taking it all to a machine shop for a bottom surfacing (super smooth), but could use some comments from others on that approach.

Otherwise, I'll save it for use out on the grill...


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## thefrapp

I have the heavy dark pots and pans with the silver lids from 25 years ago. They have/are serving me very well. I'm wondering about seasoning them every few years. Any suggestions? I've heard oil them and put them in a 225 oven for 8 hours?


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## palomalou

Still fond of my Calphalon stuff.


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## shel

Yesterday I discovered Demeyere. They suree seem to be of good quality, and compare very well with All Clad. Seems that for some uses All Clad may be a better choice, and for other situations Demeyere may be better. 

I like the Le Creuset that I have, and the inexpensive Wearever skillets found at restaurant supply houses have often served very well.

Shel


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## boblovescooking

I have used all sorts of cookware, and out of them all, I have to say that my Fissler brand cookware has served me the best! Fissler is a German company, and it's not widely known in the US though it is a high-end brand. I have a stainless cookware set which I use everyday from Fissler, as well as two pressure cookers from the same company. All of them come with this encapsulated base that Fissler calls the CookStar all-stove base, and it's wonderful. My food never scorches, even under high flame, and there are no hotspots, even at the edge of the pot. Also, the stay-cool handles are a lot more comfortable than some cast handles that come with most high-end cookware, and they're fastened using high-strength welds instead of rivets, so the interior of the pots are much easier to keep completely clean. For those of you willing to try something out of the mainstream (allclad and others), Fissler is a great choice that I highly recommend from personal experience!


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## jannie

My favorite is Mauviel copper/stainless cookware, I've got 6 saucepans, 11 3/4" skillet and 8" crepe pan. I use an electric range and these have worked out wonderfully for me; I started with my first one about 6-7 years ago and slowly acquired more. I've also used All Clad MC2 and had a whole set of Cuisinart stainless but wasn't that excited about either. 

But recently I've been wanting a large saute pan, my only copper one is 1.9qt and I still have a stainless Cuisinart 3.5 qt and don't care for it much to the point where I'll use my large skillet instead if I can. But the Mauviel is sooo expensive for the saute pans, the 5 qt especially so I haven't taken the plunge. 

At Costco the other day I took a chance and bought a Traqmontina 5qt deep saute pan for only $29.95 and it's amazing, stainless, it cooks completely evenly on my larger electric burner, even with so much of the pan hanging beyond the edge. I've been testing it with pancakes and eggs just to see how evenly it cooks and it's absolutely amazing. I did find it takes about 5 minutes to preheat the pan at medium heat compared to about 3 1/2 minutes with my copper skillet but wow it is worth it. 

That Cooks Illustrated magazine had rated the Tranmontina 8qt stock pot almost up there with the All Clad at a quarter of the cost to I took a second look at this saute pan when I saw it at the store. 

Would I still use it if I also had a copper one of the same size, I might say yes, because when they get this big, they get really heavy. I'm still pining for the Mauviel 3.5qt saute though, I just can't help it, they're wonderful products. 

I think a lot of workling with anything is how well you know it, how much you use it and understand your conditions. I have many, many friends who are far better cooks than I and each has a 12" cast iron skillet on their stovetop all the time; they cook almost everything in it that is appropriate and will use no other skillet or saute pan. To the person they will all brag about these pans, some of which they've inherited from their moms and more than 30 years old...and so well seasoned to rival even the best non-stick pans out there.

I had a set of them at one point and gave them to a friend when I got into the copper...all he uses is the 12", a stock pot, and two saucepans on top of the stove. He is an excellent cook, as in fabulous so I really think there are a lot of pretty good choices out there...and yeah, I'll probably get another cast iron skillet myself and this time pay more attention.

Jannie...Newbee:roll:


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## phatch

I've got some Tramontina and have been very impressed for the price.


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## jannie

Hey I just looked at the Lodgemfg website and they've got some new products coming out next week. They're cast iron skillets, well they call them skillets but they look more like straight sided saute pans and they have very nice stainless handles. They don't post the prices but just say they will be available April 1st.

And as for what is used in commercial kitchens, as part of my work as a photographer over a period of three decades, I did a lot of filming in kitchens, commercial, test, display and teaching and do not believe I ever saw anything but the metal handled (blue) pans in commercial kitchens. 

At places like Whole Foods where they have a teaching kitchen and in special places like a cabin you can rent up on the mountain at Vail Colorado where a chef shows up in the morning to cook everyone breakfast, then you're more likely to see the more expensive stuff like All Clad. But my own experience is that if the cooking's done where it's not on display to the public, then its the cheaper commercial grade stuff that gets used.

But I still love my Mauviel, debating whether to get the 10" skillet (2.5mm) or the 3.2 qt saute next; don't want to buy the saute with a lid though, don't like the little handles and they cost so much, I also don't see the purpose for having copper lids, much prefer stainless lids and have found several from Cuisinart and All Clad which fit my larger copper pots/pans just fine.
Jannie


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## jbone

Okay so I'll chime in on this thread that looks to have been going for YEARS now. Too cool.

About 2 years ago after much reasearch I settled on getting myself an All Clad set. The best set I could find was for the 15 piece offered by William Sonoma for $999. Part of my search was asking friends and family to get ideas and they would FREAK when I told them how much I was looking to spend but for me I didn't think it was that bad. I mean seriously, we don't even think twice about spening $1500 on a computer that will last 5-7 years tops or even $2000 and up for a cool new plasma TV (ooohhhh ahhhhh) which have a shelf life as well. But spending $1000 on something that 1. will last forever 2. has a lifetime warranty 3. is constantly rated as the #1 cookware and 4. will be used everyday for the rest of your life; to me, personally, I think that is a deal. 

The deciding factor to go with All Clad was that not only did I want something that was quality but I wanted it to look nice as well. Like they say, we eat with our eyes but we cook with our eyes too. If something is cooked in a nice looking shiny skillet our visual senses tell us that the food will be good too. 

A lot of people say not to get a set and buy individualy but in my case the set was perfect. I have used every piece at one point or another and LOVE the dutch oven. Plus the domed lid for the dutch oven fits my skillet which is great for making Braciole.

Anyways those are just some thoughts I felt like sharing. And no I'm not an "All Clad only" type of guy. I have a good mix of cast iron and a couple of non stick but at the end of the day the All Clad set is what gets me excited about cooking. Isn't that what it's all about? Enjoy.

Jason


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## jannie

Jason, did you get the stainless set, and did you get stainless or non-stick skillets. I was looking at one of the 14 piece sets and frankly it looks pretty fantastic to me as well. Not for me though, I'm well into my copper stuff but I really like the sizes and shapes of the All-Clad cookware. If I were to get individual pieces for my daughter, I think I'd get the All-Clad MC2 (she lives in an apartment with housemates, so getting them as utilitarian as possible would be best) I'd probably get her the 1 1/2qt saucepan, 2 1/2qt saucepan, (I love those sizes) 6qt stock pot, a 3qt saute and 10" skillet. Now that adds up to a lot of money but I think it's a pretty good balance. Either that or go really inexpensive and get the SurLaTable brand stainless set which is on sale for $150.00.
Jannie


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## ninja_59

You can have your Le Creuset resurfaced 

I'm soo mad, I threw mine away, I did not know then


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## ninja_59

For all the rest its all clad


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## grantmasterflas

Are you referring to the Saute with the handles on both sides in place of the one long skillet style handle? If so buy the one with the two handles that comes with the lid, yes it costs more but it's much easier to move around. I have both and since you already have Mauviel you know how heavy they are. Now imagine the saute pan full of something and without two handles it's not going anywhere. I've only found the one with two handle one up to 9.5 inches though so any larger I have to go with the one handle model without the lid. 

Grant


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## grantmasterflas

They're not really the same thing... There's stick, non-stick and then there's reactive and non-reactive. The enameled surface is non-reactive so you don't have to worry about acidity in tomatoes etc.. There's a place for both. My comals are seasoned cast iron and I have to seasoned tall skillets as well as two enameled dutch ovens (one oval, one round). As far as the enamel goes treat this as you would a non-stick coated pan. I only use wood spoons in mine. The chips won't come from cooking though but rather storing them. Usually around the rip from putting the lid on harsh or around the bottom from bumping into other stuff.


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## boar_d_laze

Looking at this, and a few other threads as well, it seems as if, every so often, someone chimes in as the "voice of reason." The time has come again.

It's very easy to overrate the distinctions between various brands of cookware as well as the importance of materials and construction. From a practical standpoint you don't need Le Creuset, you don't need Mauviel, you don't need All Clad. What sets these and similar brands apart from the herd is not performance but appearance. Indeed from most performance perspectives these are poor values. In addition, most of these high-end name pots and pans are much heavier than they need to be. Most of the reason you don't see these types of pots and pans in restaurant kitchens is not their expense (at least not taken alone), but the lack of rationale to spend the money. 

In some ways the high quality of the high-end lines hurts them. They are heavy. Weight is more important with pans you'll use for sauteing and/or browning than pots. You want something light enough to lift so you can toss, shake and slide the food by hand. Thats partly why plain ol' mid-weight, cheap, commercial aluminum and carbon steel pans one sees in most restaurant kitchens are superior -- not just cheaper. 

When it comes to pots -- all the high-tech even heat distribution stuff doesn't matter much. And again, mid-weight aluminum does as good a job as anything else. Of course, you want to avoid long exposure to high-acid foods to prevent discoloring the product. So it's nice to have at least a few decent, stainless pieces.

Cast iron is another thing altogether. Holds the heat like nobody's business. Nice for fried chicken, corn-bread, and whatever else you cook by overloading a hot skillet. Otherwise, it's just heavy. Enamel over cast iron loses the heat retention value of ridiculous mass and exchanges it for an absolute superiority as braising material. But c'mon! Braising is really no big deal, you don't need golden vessels. Besides, the stuff is expensive and fragile. Also, there are less expensive approaches than Le Creuset. 

None of the above is to say you shouldn't buy and love what you like. It's beautiful, no doubt about it. And it works well, if you can deal with the expense, weight and maintenance. But you don't NEED it. And when it comes to pure performance, you can do better for a lot less money. 

Just my dos centavos,
BDL 

Ex-sous chef
Ex-caterer
Now-working on a book


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## grantmasterflas

Spoken like a true American cook! We seem to think that since we don't really have a cuisine of our own that all food is cooked in an alluminum fry pan or stainless pot. We have the Chevy attitude toward cookware, if a small block v8 works in a truck then by god we'll use it everywhere! Look at the Mexicans and their use of cast iron. I've tried to do the same thing with a stainless or aluminum fry pan followed up with a stock pot and it just doesn't work the same. After I moved away from my aluminum core pots to Mauviel copper sauce pans I can't imagine going back. Yes, they're heavy but I can tell you that risotto is now possible without making it that wet mush you buy in Italian-American restaurants. 

If you've only worked in traditional American restaurants you will only see cheap commercial aluminum fry pans and stainless stock pots. You said "most" restaurants which makes me think of all those people who generalize everything, it's rarely because they have data to back it up (and I'm generalizing..). Go work in a Thai restaurant and you'll see high carbon steel woks, Mexican restaurant and it's heavy cast iron, French and it's copper. Are all of these people nuts or do they know something you don't? Why don't they just buy some cheap aluminum pans?

To say that a heavy cast iron dutch oven will lose it's ability to retain heat because it has an enamel coating is really silly. 

Also you say the high tech heat retention is bologna for pots. Apparently you only boil water in your pots. Again you're talking about a very small slice of cuisine. Caramelize onions at high heat in your stock pot and then pour in a sauce that has any sugar in it and watch it burn right at bottom radius of the pot. It won't burn on the bottom, just around the lower edges and burn it does. 

As far as aluminum discoloring food - you said that you should avoid long exposures? How about 10 minutes. Do you ever simmer tomato sauce for more than 10 minutes? Might want to start thinking about a non-reactive coating...

What I do agree with is you don't have to spring for the name brands of everything every time. I don't own any Le Cruiset any more. I have off brand dutch ovens and I swear they're every bit as good as Le Cruiset but they're still enameled cast iron and I'd swear by them for the specific food I use them for. I think I paid $50 ea for them whereas the Le Cruiset equivalent would have been $200. If it's cast iron, it's enameled, it's the right size and the lid fits (important if you're getting it from marshals or TJ-Maxx) then you're good.

I have a couple of All-clad pans and stock pots but I really think the handles on Al-clad are insane and I'll probably never buy a fry pan from them larger than 8 inches because I'd probably drop something when trying to pick up the pan. I do respect their workmanship and the way they cook is good but who's idea was it to make a handle that focuses all of the pan and it's contents weight on two small ridges of handle no wider than a knife blade?

Grant


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## boar_d_laze

grantmasterflas,

You misinterpreted much of what I wrote -- innocently, I presume. Your inferences regarding my cooking background were wrong. 

BDL


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## grantmasterflas

You said "most" restaurants so I assumed you actually meant most restaurants. But since I know that's not true I again assumed you were referring to most American restaurants which is true. Most of the American restaurants I know (and all I've worked in) use commercial aluminum fry pans and stainless steel pots. I was attempting to make your statements more true. 

Although I've not cooked around the world I've spent time in 30 countries eating like a pig and talking to chefs and I don't believe most restaurants globally use the type of cookware you mentioned. Maybe that's what you meant and I just read into it wrong.

Grant


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## rouxtheday

I don't want to get into the middle of a quarrel between two people who clearly know of what they speak, but I do have _dos centavos _of my own...

All Clad does not necessarily mean heavy. All Clad *Copper Core* is exceptionally heavy. On the other hand, the All Clad *Stainless *line is of reasonable weight. This coming from a 5'3"-ish woman, 40-something, delicate build (i.e., small bones, no weight-lifter).

My copper-core pans (not necessarily All Clad) are a definite liability, and I think ahead before deciding whether to use them. Not a good thing to be in the position of emptying my 5qt saute when it's full nearly to the brim. I just don't have the upper body strength, helper handle or no! Generally, I end up recruiting hubby or one of the more fully grown sons in the house to help me!

I do have a huge aluminum stock pot (like 16 qts or some such), which I love, but I seldom use it. Not due to size -- even completely full, I can generally manage to move it from point A to point B on my own -- but because it's so reactive. As it is, it's got plenty of black stains!

Two things I really do love about my SS cookware vs. my aluminum stuff (especially non-stick), are the ability to clean it with Bar Keepers Friend, and to put it in the dishwasher without a second thought.

BTW... the idea that enameled CI does not need to be Le Creuset... well, I really do have to agree with that one, 100%.:smoking:


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## grantmasterflas

I thought when I was in Dehileran in Paris looking at Mauviel that the stuff was completely impractical because of it's weight and how it looked 5 minutes after you cooked something with it. However, I bought a few pieces of copper anyway to try based on reviews that I'd seen and research that I'd done. I absolutely love copper for certain types of pans and I have to say that I don't really notice the weight now because I've been cooking with it for quite a while although I've got enough beef to lift it..

My daughter (who's headed to Corden Bleu soon) loves how it cooks but struggles with the weight. Williams Sonoma sells some copper cookware made by Mauviel with their name on it but it's .5 to 1 mm thinner, I presume because of the weight. Most home cooks that I know just aren't going to pack a pan like that around. Anyway I realize that there are pans for purposes and the Copper is awesome as a fry pan and great as a sauce pan. I have a copper sautee pan that sits in the cupboard gathering dust because I use Aluminum sautee pans. Different strokes for different folks... I'd have to say that my thick Mauviel pans are worth the effort but I'd probably go alluminum instead of the thinner copper.

Grant


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## boar_d_laze

Roux,

Sounds about right. 

All three of my stock pots are stainless. One of them is one of those heavyish stainless pots that comes with a steamer insert and a spaghetti strainer. You know the kind. 

Maybe I expressed myself poorly, but I'm not opposed to All-Clad. It's great stuff but heavy. As you pointed out the stainless core isn't as heavy. But you're still paying a premium for a conductive layer which extends all the way up the sides of the pan. Nice but usually not necessary. For most pot tasks a thickish aluminum bottom is all it takes. Personally I like stainless pots a lot -- even if most of mine are old fashioned anodic Calphalon. FWIW, most of my pans are also Calphalon, and they're getting near replacement age. I'll mostly replace the slope sides with commercial French blue steel. Ugly, but it works. Cheap too. I've already replaced my large straight side pan with commercial aluminum. Again: ugly, productive and cheap. 

Over the years, I've managed to discolor food by cooking acidic product in aluminum -- but can't recall doing it in as short a time as ten minutes. I've stained a few pots too. But who cares about aluminum? 

Back to the weight thing -- moving food in the pan by moving the pan is one of the most important sub-techniques in the techniques of sauteing and browning. Let me explain: "Saute," means "jump," and you should toss the food to keep it jumping. Stirring is not as good. Two reasons. You can use higher heat, and you get different texture. 

The key to sear-browining is the "release." When meats go into a hot, more or less dry pan (ALWAYS lightly oil) they sweat proteins which turn brown as a result of the "Mailard reaction" (like carmelization). Similarly, vegetables sweat starches (which convert to sugars), and actual sugars which (simply) carmelize. During the process, the food will stick to the pan. If you move the food too soon, the process is interrupted and can never successfully be restarted. If you move it too late, the food over browns -- the worst aspects of which are bitterness and toughness. But when the food is browned, it will spontaneously release from the surface of the pan. How can you determine the perfect moment? Shake the pan. If the food moves, it's ready to turn. No move, no turn. Think of this as "Scallops 101," the first day of seafood at chef school. So what happens if the pan is too hard to toss around? The food suffers.

Let me modify these technique lessons with the observation that there are few absolutes in the kitchen. You do what you can with what you have to make it work. (For instance if the pan is too heavy or you're using a grill -- gently tap the product on the side with your tongs. If it moves sideways, eh la!) Of course that's true with equipment choice as well. If you like the way copper looks, you can afford it, you can care for it and you can handle it -- buy it. Similarly, I like the ex-pug homeliness of my workhorse pans. That doesn't mean you should like it or own it. I'm all for people buying what they want. I just wanted to add a little information. 

BDL


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## grantmasterflas

I almost corrected you about the Maillard reaction not being carmalization but after re-reading your post I think that's what you meant anyway (you said "like carmalization").  You are correct in saying you learn new ways of doing things. I know that I don't throw my copper around like I would an aluminum pan because of it's weight but I also know that I have no problem grabbing the handle of my tossing something in my 11 frypan but it takes a good heft to do it. So I don't "toss" food that much but I do shake the pans all the time but only laterally like how we used to make popcorn on the stove in a pan as a kid. It works just fine to release food. If I'm doing a stir-fry and need to toss the veggies then I'm using a non-stick aluminum pan anyway.

I don't however consider All-clad remotely heavy. The copper core yes (and the core is of little improvement anyway according to ATK) but the alluminum core pans weigh about the same as an all alluminum pan. I really doubt a .5mm lining of stainless weighs that much. Like I said my biggest problem is the handles on those beasts. Some of my All-Clad is galvanized on the outside and has the stainless lining and some have the lining in and out. I don't see a weight problem with either.

I don't really have a problem with the way alluminum cooks either but I have a few requirements. 1. it has to be lined. I just makes sense that if your food is discoloring that there are also foreign flavors ending up in it. Maybe for some heavy spiced curry you're ok but for something more delicate not. 2. Everything that I've had made of pure alluminum 11" or larger warps at some point. My Calphalon saute pan doesn't touch the burner in the middle anymore. I have an Analon alluminum saute that's never warped because it's thicker but doesn't cook that nice either. My copper stuff never warp and cook great. 

My two complaints with the copper is that it's heavy and that the handles are Cast Iron. Why does Mauviel do that? Cast Iron transfers heat fairly well - right into your hand. Seems they should have gone stainless because it's absolutely horrible at transferring heat. Stainless would make a great handle. 

I hear people say that copper is pretty so they want some - yeah, when it comes out of the box. Mine looks like these old things that someone dug out of the attic. I refuse to pollish my pots every day just so they look nice. My intention is to create food! I had a friend ask me if I was going to cook in them... That's a lot of money to just have something sitting in the pantry because it looks pretty. They haven't been pretty since a week after I bought them.

There's one note that I'd like to make that I think BDL has been touching on from the beginning. There is the stuff that real chefs use and there is the stuff that "designer home cooks" buy into. Anything that comes in a set is probably not the best. I don't know how many people buy their All-Clad copper core set of pans and Their JA-Henkels set of knives and then spend most of their time talking them up because of the brand recognition. Each of my knives I bought separate for the task as I did my pans. The closest I come to a pan set is probably three pans! There's no real reason to use the same type of pan construction for every type of pan. Sometimes we have to just swallow the pride and use the best tool for the job and not get caught up with what the Jones's are doing. When people see my enameled cast iron and I tell them it isn't Le Creuset I see their heart sink. My knives are a mixture, my pans are all different. They probably think I went dumpster diving or couldn't afford a proper set. 

Grant


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## boar_d_laze

Grant, I think we've always been pretty close to the same page, but might have got off on the wrong foot, feet, foot.

If you want to straighten the warp out of Calphalon pan, get yourself a 2X4 a little longer than the width of the pan and a nice, heavy hammer. Heat the pan nice and hot. Working quickly, lay it on its rim on something that allows the rim to sit flat and the handle to hang off the edge -- a workbench or a concrete step, for instance. Put the 2X4 on the bottom of the hot pan and start whacking away all over the board. Rotate the board so you beat the board over the entire surface of the pan two or three times. Reheat and rehit a few times to get the bottom really flat, the warming-cooling cycle is part of the process. Works on carbon steel too. Less well on stainless. It's a good fix, but a temporary one. Warpage will return more quickly than it first came in. But, of course, it can be beaten out nearly _ad infinitum_.

Cast iron handles are traditional on French (and Belgian) cooking vessels. They're supposedly "cooler." Go figure. FWIW, copper cleans pretty well with oven cleaner. The kind of industrial strength you get from restaurant supply places works better than regular Easy Off which works better than "Fume-Free," which works better than whatever comes next. After you get it clean you can hit it with some super shine stuff like Brasso or whatnot if you want to, but I get the feeling you like a few battle scars. Take it for what it's worth, but it's a good idea to clean copper now and then, and not let it get too far gone. It'll cook better for you.

When it comes to pans, I'm not a fan of stainless linings because of its propensity to stick -- especially after taking on a few scratches. Also it doesn't sear or brown as well as carbon steel, tinned copper, anodic aluminum, and regular aluminum. But that's me. It's got a lot of virtues too, and I certainly recognize its attractions to the home cook (of which I have been one for many years). Not that there aren't limits. I draw the line at flaking Teflon.

Speaking of overpriced... have you tried the kinda-sorta non-stick Sitram developed on the French government's dime? I'd like to hear from someone with experience. No matter how good it is, I'll probably go with carbon steel when I replace the Calphalon. You can't beat it for so many things, especially once you get a good season on it. I like carbon steel a lot a lot. You don't see it around much though even though it comes from France and its cheap as can be. Maybe there's a reason other than it's ugly as all ****, rusts, dents and warps. What could it be?

BDL


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## grantmasterflas

Copper cleans up well with lemon juice and salt too. Maybe stuff that I don't use a lot I'll clean so it looks nice but my pans look a lot like ones you see in old Julia Child photos - very patinad (if that's a word). 

Most of my non-stick is titanium and they've held up really well but still non-stick is non-stick for a reason - it's covered with plastic of some sort.

The stainless lining in the copper works really well and currently doesn't stick very much considering they're "stick pans". I think it's because the stainless is very very smooth. Once I've gotten it all scoured up the stuff will probably stick more. I had a choice of tin or stainless but I couldn't tell the difference between them cooking although scientifically the tin is supposed to be better. The tin however will not stand up to any abuse so I went stainless. 

Williams Sonoma pans by Mauviel have brass handles but again I think they're thinking more about looks and weight than thermal properties. Maybe a brass handle wouldn't hold up a 2.5 mm copper pan though and cast iron would.

I like high carbon steel for knives. Dehillerin has a wall full of them and nothing else. They're not pretty but they work better than anything. I'm not quite sold on carbon steel for other things though outside of woks and crepe pans which I don't use anyway because I have a Krampouz crepe cooker from Brittany. 

I haven't yet been impressed with anything Sitram has done. Even the French can become diluted if given enough pressure. Look what's happening to Le Cruiset now. Make some stainless piece of nothing in Thailand and slap your name on it and sell it for a huge profit.

I really don't cook with non-stick pans that much, just for eggs and veggies. Most of my Mexican cooking is done on cast iron comals which have a very nice layer of seasoning now so they're sort of non-stick...

Grant


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## jason

I too have got some Tramontina phatch, but i only have the 8 qt pot atm. But it has every thing i need to steam veggies and cook pasta at the same time on some things i cook. Then i use the pot it's self for stew and such things, i am happy with it. But i do have a question for you phatch (or anyone else who feels like an answer) I am looking to get some stainless steel pans and i am thiking of getting Tramontina. For the price they are not bad, i don;t have a lot of money to spend. I am wondering if they are worth it for just all round the house cooking?


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## boar_d_laze

Jason,

One thing to remember when buying cookware is that pots are not pans, and the cooking demands are very different. A _good_ stainless pot will diffuse heat evenly across the bottom, but cooks seldom ask for much performance from the walls. So, a mid-weight solid stainless pot with well-attached handles and a reasonably thick, aluminum, heat diffusion disk on the bottom, and an adequate top is more than good enough. After that, you're buying appearance and "feel," more than performance.

From a price/performance standpoint, mid-level pots such as house brands, Wolfgang Puck, Emerilware, whatever's on sale at HSN, etc., are as good as anything else. Cuisinart pots are very high value -- especially if you can find them on sale. However -- and this is a big however -- you should be honest about the actual importance of appearance, fit, finish and feel to you. These things mean a lot to most home cooks, and should not be under-valued. The best advice I can give is to always buy what you want. You'll regret spending more only until the next paycheck. You'll regret settling for something you didn't really want for as long as you own it.

Pan performance is something else. In no particular order, the best performing materials for general use are carbon steel, tinned copper, and aluminum. Each of these materials has convenience or reactive issues which stainless does not. In order to get around them, sometimes a stainless liner is placed inside a copper or aluminum shell. Sometimes a stainless pan is attached to an aluminum diffusion disc. However, stainless has performance issues -- especially a tendency to stick which gets progressively worse as the stainless develops small scratches. Stainless functions best when it's surgically clean. And, no matter what you do, you can't "cure" it.

If you like the appearance and convenience aspects of stainless, you'd probably be best served by buying a few pans fairly well up the quality ladder for their heat distribution and construction qualities, then rounding out your collection with special purpose pans as you require them. That having been said, you want to watch the weight. You want your slope and round sided pans to be light enough for you to use the toss-turn technique you see the TV pros use.

IMO, for most purposes, simple carbon steel French pans are best (good selection on Amazon). The fact that they're not easily available is an indication that the market place disagrees -- take it for what it's worth. I'd rate commercial aluminum a close second, but because aluminum is so reactive, a cook should round out the set with at least a couple of stainless pans. Cast iron is also a useful addition for those things where you want to keep a steady heat in a crowded pan. Think fried chicken.

Non-stick coatings are another subject altogether. Almost any pan surface -- with the exception of stainless can be made very slick one way or another. To the extent pros lack the time and attention, and home-cooks the techniques they have a legitimate place.

Price is important to you, and me too. If you do a cost-benefit analysis, you'll find Tramontina a little past the point where the Law of Diminishing Returns kicked in. If you're looking for pure performance, try a couple of French black or blue carbon steel pans. They're inexpensive enough to make a mistake.

Some thoughts,
BDL


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## jason

Well boar . . . . well is all i can say on your reply. That is a lesson in it's self, and now i know a bit more about the do's and don't. I guess i was thinking stainless for the look but then after you mentioned them sticking that was something i never gave much thought too. And cast iron pans are wonderful in the kitchen, and if better in my option if you can get your mother or grndmothers hand me downs. I have a three set of what i like to call "wal-mart specials" non-stick pans, they do the job for now. But taking all that you have said in your post to heart i really do think that i will go for the carbon steel or tinned copper. I do like the look of tinned copper, and as you have said they would very useful. One thing i have found though should i buy sets or just a pan at a time? All the sets i see only have sauce pans, which are the pans that have the 90 degree sides unless i am wrong. So i would think but a set and then get my saute pans one at a time right?


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## jason

Sorry about my spelling i tend to miss letters when I type fast


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## boar_d_laze

Jason,

Forgive me for taking so long to reply to your post. It hasn't all been time wasted though, I've been using some of that time to think about how to answer your question.

Tinned copper pans? Maybe in New York. Maybe in the fifties. Not in Montana in this century. Too expensive, too hard to get retinned -- which they need every couple of years if they get use. Also, most users find copper pans impractical because the require so much effort to keep clean and shined. This wasn't a big deal in the days when middle-class families had live in help -- but those days are long gone. It's also not a big deal for people like Grant who like their copper pans to look a bit grungy.

Different materials do different things well, at varying degrees of economy, practicality and beauty. Let's talk about the two basics:

_1. Pots and pans which will be usually used filled with liquid_ a k a Sauce Pans:

For most cooks, the best material for these pots and pans is stainless -- at least for the vessel itself. Stainless is non-reactive, easy to clean and inexpensive. However, it's a poor heat conductor -- not so much in the sense that it's slow, but in the sense that it heats unevenly and develops hot spots. Also, in the gauges normally used for cooking it's subject to dinging. Heavier gauges are prohibitively heavy.

The modern, common fix for these faults is to attach an aluminum disc, either by sintering or pressure bonding to the bottom of the pan. Honestly, that pretty much takes care of everything crummy you might otherwise say about a stainless pan. This is not to say there aren't better choices for special purposes, there are. Or that you can't buy better performance by throwing a lot of money at it, because you can.

A very popular up-market choice is a stainless insert, totally encased in a shell made from a better (or two better!) conductors. There is some performance gain, but it's very slight compared to the expense and the weight. Also, even heating at the wall of a liquid filled pan is usually of little to no importance. All-Clad makes a few lines with insert-in-shell construction, Calphalon Tri-Ply is another example. This is good stuff, but it's expensive.

If cost matters get stainless with a disc. Look for a substantial disc, a well-attached, good handle, and good lids. There are lots of choices and lots of sources. You don't need to go to a restaurant supply store, and you don't need anything from Williams Sonoma either. A really well put together line of cookware of this type is Cuisinart Classic. Look for it on sale. Also look for department store house brands, Emerilware (a mid-market All-Clad), and other mid-lines. Wolfgang Puck isn't bad, and HSN and Big O aren't bad sources.

You mentioned you'd never seen a slope-sided sauce pan. Something you never see in a set, but is important for almost anyone with pretensions to good cooking is a "Windsor Pan." The little suckers are invaluable for saucing. Also good for mashed spuds, because you can get tools in there so easily without rapping your own knuckles.

_2. Fry pans, skillets, etc.

_We talked about specialty pans above. Well the world of these low-sided pans has quite a few.

These pans are generally used dry or nearly dry. Consequently, it's important to avoid sticky surfaces. Drat! Stainless is sticky. Well it might not start sticky when it's all polished and new, but get a few scratches in it and it sticks. This is why you don't see a lot of stainless pans in commercial kitchens.

What you do see is aluminum and carbon steel. Mostly aluminum. The problem with aluminum is that it's reactive. It discolors acid foods. Aluminum also dings easily. Commercial kitchens don't care, but you probably will.

The best overall choice is carbon steel if you can stand ugly. This comes in three flavors: Black, blue and white. The black and blue steels are treated against corrosion. The white steel is raw. Don't confuse carbon steel with enamel-over-steel. You might see someone talk about "white specks" in black steel or "non-stick" steel pans -- if you do, run away.

Speaking of "non-stick," carbon steel seasons in exactly the same way as cast-iron. If you treat your pans right, they'll be slicker than goose fat. But when seasoned they don't lose their ability to sear or brown. Cheap too. For most things, they're the ideal pan.

Talk more later,
BDL


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## jason

You know boar . . . . i am starting to think you are a well of knowledge! You have really helped me at all of the questions i have about what kind of pans to get, i want to say thank you! I am pretty sure that a little store here in town has some Emerilware, i will have to take a look on my next days off. And the "Windsor Pan" you were talking about, i have never even heard of one of those. But the the thought of not roasting my knuckles sounds quite nice to me. And about the carbon steel pans, for what you have just told me i think i can handle ungly since it sounds as though it will out last me. 

"Don't confuse carbon steel with enamel-over-steel." You said this here, but is there a sure fir way for me to know the difference? When it comes to knowing cookware i am as green as a granny smith apple. And you said that the black and blue carbon steel is treated againest corrosion how do mean? Like a non-stick or just something they have done to the pans?

Thanks again for everything you being a great help!


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## boar_d_laze

Jason,

Just google the terms carbon + steel + pans and you'll get a lot of hits. You'll find that most of the pans are made in France -- which is a good thing. You'll also find a lot of net-tailers you trust, which is also good. The pans on Amazon from World-something are good pans. 

Some of the pans have steel handles, a few have cast iron. Generally, but not always, cast iron is a sign of "quality." 

You'll know they are regular carbon steel and not non-stick or "salt-enamel" because they won't say they're non-stick or enamel. Those are misnomers you get from advice givers. By the way the speckled enamel stuff you take camping that's blue with white dots, or red with white dots... you know what I mean? That's the stuff that some people confuse with professional carbon steel. You won't. The differences are obvious. That having been said, I love salt steel because it's so attractive. Cooks like crap though. Great for service.

Carbon steel should be treated like cast iron. Season it well. Season it again, before using. Afterwards, just rinse it and wipe it if you can get away with it. Use soap only if you have to, and then with a nylon brush. If you have to scour, you'll probably have to re-season. But it's no big deal. These aren't grandma's pans and don't have to be treated with reverence. They can even go in the dishwasher, but you'll have to oil them immediately after they come out to keep them from rusting. Carbon steel should never go to bed wet. 

The exception to "it's OK to abuse your steel" is an 8" pan you set aside for omelettes and a special low sided pan for crepes -- if you're serious about these things. Revere those two. Treat them like gold. Buy them chocolate if they insist. You can replace the pan easily enough, but the perfectly seasoned surface that comes from use -- not so much. It ain't the dime, it's the time. $20 and six months. 

Carbon steel kind of hits the golden mean between copper and cast iron. It's inexpensive, not too heavy to lift, and very responsive to temperature changes. It sears, browns, caramelizes and sautes better than anything else. On the downside, it's not "modern" cookware, and there's nothing well-researched or ergonomic about it. The bad news, besides all the seasoning and rusting B.S., is the handles suck. This means keeping a towel on you when you're in the kitchen at all times. Those handles get hot. You can always tell someone who learned to cook with steel pans -- they keep a towel on their shoulder or in their belt. 

Regarding black, blue and white steel: At the steel mill, they take big bars of steel, and roll them between enormous rollers to make the sheets of steel from which the pan pieces will later be cut. The enormous stresses the rollers place on the steel is part of the process by which the steel acquires its character. Sometimes the steel mill adds various powders to the surface of the steel, which become part of it during the rolling the process. This is how "black" and "blue" carbon steels are made. It's not a coating, but an actual part of the steel. It's purpose is to delay corrosion, not to create a non-stick surface. It can scratch, but not easily, and if it does scratch, it's no big deal. Just season the pan again. In my experiences with black, blue and white -- mostly with blue -- the blue seasons easiest. Come to think of it, that's more what I was told than my own experience. But my experience hasn't disturbed the thought. 

Blue steel is particularly associated with the Lyon area in France. Black with somewhere in the north of France, I forget where exactly. The French love black steel for baking because it's good with crust. I don't know if it's got the same rep for pans or not. They used to use blue steel pans with incredibly long handles at the omelette place at Mt. St. Michelle. 

Start with one or two pans and see what you think. Don't design your kitchen around them 'til you see if you like them. Yes, they're good performers. Yes, they're high bang for the buck. But they need care. And they're also an aesthetic. Personally, I like a lot of black steel, and battered aluminum, and old scuffed up Calphalon on my pot rack. Not everyone does. 

Remember, there's only so much a pan can do to help or hurt you. 90% is knowing what goes in it, 7% is knowing how to shake it.

Don't forget to buy lids. You'll have to find them separately. Don't obsess, they're lids. Go cheap young man.

BDL


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## phatch

So what do you mean by stainless steel is sticky? I've used the same stainless pans for years. They have scratches. They don't stick any more now than they did new.

Carbon steel has all the same problems of cast iron and aluminum. It's reactive and acidic pan sauces will discolor and have an off taste. They have their place and I like them, but for most people, stainless steel is just fine and easier to deal with.

Stainless steel can be seasoned. It doesn't take on a patina like carbon steel or cast iron though. There have been a number of threads on this forum about seasoning stainless steel. The most recent I know of occurs in this thread, http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/profe...-egg-tips.html

Even teflon pans benefit from a seasoning with oil and many such pans come with instructions to do so.

Phil


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## grantmasterflas

I have to jump in here again too. BDL *has* to be talking about a very limited cooking scenario because non-stick pans are worthless outside of cooking a few things. To tell someone they shouldn't go with stainless or stainless lined fry pans is just misleading to the nth degree. If your pan doesn't stick, you won't sear properly and you can't make a pan sauce worth beans.

In the past I've accused (maybe wrongly) BDL of not having a lot of cooking breadth and I'm going to do it again here. There's just no other explanation. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying but if I'm not then Jason isn't either.

You do NOT use the same fry pan for everything. Choose the pan depending on what you're doing. The idea of doing Chicken Marsala in a non-stick (I'm not talking teflon here, any non-stick) pan is preposterous. It will not turn out. The sauce won't have any depth and the chicken won't have any flavor at all.

I'm going to add my own advice to the list for Jason's questions. Don't buy a pan set unless you have an allergic reaction to money and just need to get rid of it. Decide what you want to cook and buy a pan for it. As you want to cook more things buy the correct pan for those things. You need a "stick" fry pan and a non-stick fry pan. It doesn't matter if the stick fry pan is stainless/aluminum, stainless/copper or whatever but it needs to stick. Your non-stick can be carbon steel, cast iron or some sort of titanium/TFL if your into that. My stick pans get used 10/1 over the non-stick. Keep in mind that my use for a frypan is european (Italian/French) in nature. When I cook Indian/Persian I use enameled dutch ovens.. Non-stick is good for egs and veggies.

Grant


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## boar_d_laze

phatch -- By "sticky," I mean (a) stuff sticks; and (b) as an assertion of relative stickiness, i.e., one material is more or less sticky than another. 

I know how to temporarily season a stainless pan, but thanks for the link. 

The discussion regarding carbon steel was limited to pans which would not be used for cooking sauces for any length of time, but for sears, sautes, etc. In a previous post, I recommended stainless for cooking utensils which would be used primarily for liquids.


Grant -- I did not recommend "non-stick" for anything, nor would I. In terms of searing, carbon steel creates a better crust, forms better fond, and releases more completely than stainless. For that matter, so do aluminum, tinned copper and cast iron. Each material has its strengths and weaknesses.

My "breadth:"

Professionally: Old line "continental" at the Blue Fox, "California cuisine" at Chez Panisse, and, Guest Starring as "The White Guy," barbecue at Willie Walker's. In addition to catering for ... I catered as "Predominantly French," my own SoCal company, which did "intimate" (i.e., around 20) dinners during the late Seventies for a mostly Show-Biz clientele. 

Non-Professional strengths: Eastern Mediterranean, Italian (but who doesn't?), German, Jewish, Indian, breads, competition grilling and barbecue.


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## phatch

Interesting. I've found bare aluminum to be very sticky compared to Stainless Steel. Anodized aluminum too. 

I'd have said Pro-kitchens used aluminum because it's cheap but performs well for the price and abuse and is no big deal to replace. 

Phil


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## grantmasterflas

This may be useful for anyone interested in what pan to use for what. Cooks illustrated tests the crap out of stuff and has no qualms in pronouncing a $40 pan a winner over a $200 pan. They also don't accept any advertising so the reviews aren't biased outside of their narrow field of cooking. They mostly focus on cooking in American kitchens so you won't find them recommending a large carbon steel wok over a frypan because most people don't have the kitchens to support it.

I tried to include the URL but apparently I can't post URLs until I've made 5 posts or more. Anyway go to google and search for this exactly

*cooks illustrated pan materials*

And click on the second link which is a pdf. Maybe someone else that can post URLs will reply and add the URL?

Note that my favorite frypan (copper) is not their favorite and they deem it not worth the cost. Interestingly if you buy your copper direct from Paris it costs about the same as the winner all-clad. Even though I disagree on occasion with cooks illustrated I think if you were to blindly follow someones advice without knowing any better you could do far worse than follow theirs. I think that this document sums things up pretty good.

Grant


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## grantmasterflas

Or search for this and you'll get it directly

JA05_Cookware.pdf

Grant


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## grantmasterflas

The other thing I'd like to say is there IS a difference between pans that may look the same. I have a Calphalon non-stick sautee that cooks wonderfully and an Analon non-stick sautee pan that doesn't. The Analon looks much nicer built but the bottom is just too think (that's my theory anyway). It heats up slow and reacts slowly. I can get any frond out of it (even considering non-sticks inability to do so) and I just don't like using it. The Calphalon has warped and probably for the same reason - it's too thin. 

I used to have some stainless with aluminum disk sauce pans and they'd burn the crap out of stuff along the sides of the bottom and there were hotspots in the actual bottom surface. If I had to guess it's because the stainless was too thick and the aluminum too thin.

Grant


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## rouxtheday

Jason, if I understand where you're at right now, in terms of expertise and outfitting a kitchen, I'd try to read through all the information posted here. Much of it is admittedly excellent, but possibly a bit too far up the experience curve for you.

My own opinions on the most essential pieces in a home kitchen, especially when you first start building a collection of good-quality cookware:

1. As a general rule, do not buy cookware sets. You'll get stuck with stuff you don't need or want, and therefore will not have really saved any money. Plus, why spend the money all at once when you can but a piece at a time over time? There are exceptions, of course -- if a smaller set contains exactly the things you are positive you'll use/need, and it's a bargain, no problem. Just make sure, whatever you buy, that it has all-metal handles (no plastic), and that they are riveted (not welded or soldered). Even the lids need to have metal handles!

2. Another general rule... do not ever buy stainless steel that does not have an aluminum or copper core. The thicker the core (disk of aluminum or copper sandwiched between stainless steel in the bottom of the pan), the better it will conduct heat and resist warping.

3. You'll never regret having at least one non-stick skillet (shallow frying pan with sloped sides) for eggs and the like. Teflon wears out, no matter what, so don't blow a lot of money. Just make sure it's very heavy-gauge aluminum with a riveted, all metal handle. A rubber handle cover is fine as long as it's removable, so you can stick the skillet in the oven for something like a frittata, etc. The heavier aluminum will conduct heat better, and is less likely to warp. If you have space and money for two, get an 8-inch and a 12-inch, or something along those lines.

4. At least one lidded sauté pan (like a skillet, but with straight sides). Stainless steel over a thick aluminum or copper core is good for a home cook. The advantage of an aluminum core instead of copper is weight and cost -- much lighter, much cheaper. If you can afford to buy a good brand, such as All-Clad, you will have made a long-term investment in something you probably will never have to replace. Make sure it has a helper handle, especially if it's a big 5 or 6 quart size!

5. Lidded 2-qt. and 3-qt. straight-sided sauce pans will get loads of general purpose use. Mine get used for simmering or steaming veggies, making rice, double-boiler, etc.; but I mostly prefer a saucier for sauces (see below). Add other sizes as you figure out your needs.

6. A lidded dutch oven, the biggest you can afford, store and lift when full. Enameled cast iron (e.g., Le Creuset) is most versatile, but regular cast iron and stainless have their places.

7. A stainless and/or aluminum stock pot. I think 12-qt is ideal, but it's sort of a matter of personal preference. I personally wouldn't get less than an 8-qt. model.

Try out a saucier, a slope-sided sauce pan. I use them for all kinds of things, but they're especially good for (most) sauces and things like short braises. Not having a "corner" helps with getting ingredients fully incorporated, and prevents scorching. I love these babies!


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## shel

Is this the one:

http://quicktips.cooksillustrated.co...5_Cookware.pdf

shel


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## rouxtheday

Here's a link to the document grant mentioned (thanks for that! I've been wanting it!):

http://quicktips.cooksillustrated.co...5_Cookware.pdf

Another good site is Consumer Search, which consolidates reviews of products from multiple sources:

Cookware Reviews; Stainless Steel Cookware Reviews


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## grantmasterflas

Thanks guys! That's exactly the one I was referencing. I agree with Rouxtheday's recommendations. 

I'm going to add that once you get the basics - stick frypan, non-stick frypan, sauce pan (maybe two sizes), cast iron skillet, stainless stock pot you can just add what you need to cook what you want. After several years of using my enameled dutch ovens extensively I've realized that I'd love to have a smaller 3.5 qt dutch oven too. I have a large oval and a large round one. Both work wonderfully but I now am finding that I'd "need" a smaller one. Note that I don't actually need it but it would be advantageous for me to have a smaller one. Obviously I've been getting by.

A few things that I've bought because I though ahead of time that I'd need them just sit in the pantry. That includes a 10.2 inch copper frypan and a 9.5 inch copper sautee pan. I don't use a "stick" surface to sautee usually and I prefer an 11" frypan to the smaller 10.2. 

The other thing I caution against is buying stuff just because it's a good deal. Make sure it's something you actually want. I'm guilty of walking through marshals or TJ-maxx and taking stuff home that I thought was an especially good deal and then not using it. Had I saved the money I could have put it toward something nicer. It's better to have 8 pieces of higher quality cookware than 15 pieces of cheap stuff you don't use. 

A lot of times there are ways of cutting corners on price, Marshalls and TJmaxx are two of them (just make sure the lids fit!). If you want copper order it directly from Paris for half the price as Williams Sonoma or Sur La Table. Buying off brands for some things (enameled dutch ovens) is a great way to go and buying the Cooks Illustrated Best Buys are good too. Sometimes the Best Buy actually wins the comparison. Forschner knives are an example of one that consistently wins the knife tests and cost substantially less than JA-Henkels or Wustoff which are usually midpack.

Grant


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## jason

Well so far i am trying to keep up with all three of you and will not take ones advise over the other, but i will check the site you gave GMF. And i think i have also discover by watched each person speck their mind that it will come down to what i want and what i like just like BDL has said. For the most part it has only been BDL to really give me input, so it is nice to see others state their thoughts as well.


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## grantmasterflas

Jason,
One thing you have to keep in mind is that cooking is very subjective. Have you ever discovered a wonderful restaurant that you just can't stop raving about only to take some friends and watch them muscle through gag reflexes just to please you? People are subjective and just like art food is a very subjective topic. 

It may seem like we're all at odds but if you look through what each one of us has said there's probably 85% similarity. BDL likes carbon steal, I like copper (for some things) and if you asked someone else they'd swear pure aluminum is the best. 

The reality is this - you need a pan that heats up and cools down fast for sensitive food (Alluminum/Copper). You need a pan that heats up fast and cools down slow for other types of food (Cast Iron). You need pans that stick so you can capitalize in the Maillard reaction and make create pan sauces ("stick" pans) and you need slippery pans for more delicate items like eggs and veggies (non-stick pans). Because we're experienced cooks we sit around and nitpick over small differences but I don't think anyone here would tell you to make a pan sauce in a Teflon coated pan or to cook eggs in a stainless frypan. 

Most of what we're saying is inline. However just as people have favorite foods they also have favorite characteristics in pans and no two people are alike. 

My advice to you is to start small and get one or two things. I don't think people in general get too wound up about stock pots so maybe you should start there. It seems that there are a lot more differences of opinion when it comes to frypans than anything. Pick up a name brand frypan and try it. If it doesn't satisfy you then come back here and tell us what it was and what it did and we'll tell you why and then resume our normal debates over which material is best!

BTW I don't think we've asked you what kind of food you plan on cooking?

Grant


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## jason

Well Grant, 

I have cooked a few different things, chinese is fun to cook but if i had a food i would like to learn as much as i could about i think it would be Italian. To be honest grant that is why i have even started asking so many questions about pans and such, is because i would love to learn more about pasta's and thier sauces. I have a set of three non-stick pans but that all i have. I just got a stock pot about a month ago and i have put it to work haha. I got it from wal-mart to my surprise, and was not sure why it had a disk on the bottom until i did some research and found out it was a alluminum disk. Sadly that was how bad i was with all the differences on pots and pans. I have learned quite a bit since then and most being from the wonderful people on this site like you and BDL. I have found that when i have a bad day at work (well it would be a night for me because i work nights) or i am stressed about something i find myself in the kitchen. There is just something about cooking that clams me down, and i find quite abit of enjoyment in it. I like to watch my family try the food i cook and am always open to why they do or don't like it.

I understand that for the most part everyone is on the same page about what they are saying like you said, and that everyone will have thier own option about likes and dislikes on pans. I learned from my mother the wonders of the cast iron pan, but everything else i have had to figure out on my own for the most part. I would love to go to cooking school but i am in the process of moving so i will have to put that dream on hold for now. But for now I am trying to take in all that can from the people that seem to know so much here.


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## grantmasterflas

Jason,
If you like pasta you should start making your own. It's great fun and you get to make huge messes. I've perfected ravioli making at home at this point. You need a bit of equipment but most of it's just method. I started making ravioli because I wanted to be creative. My favorite home made pasta is butternut squash filled ravioli (with a touch of maple and nutmeg) in a pistachio cream sauce. There's a little restaurant near the Duomo in Modena Italy that makes it to perfection. Trying to get it at home the same way was impossible.

If you want to start off small and make fettuccine, linguine or any stuffed pasta you can get a small hand cranked pasta roller for about $20-40, a food processor (with decent gears) and some pasta forms for stuffed pasta or pasta drying rack for stringy pasta. The hand cranked pasta roller works best if one person is cranking and the other feeding the dough through the roller. If you have a Kitchen aide Mixer you can buy the pasta roller attachment and the mixer turns the rollers and you do the feeding. 

Anyway you throw eggs and flour in the food processor run it until it's formed in a ball, kneed it for a second and let it rest for an hour. After that you can roll it out using a pasta roller into thin sheets and lay it over the forms and fill them with whatever you want. Then freeze the pasta so their firm while you're boiling water. Once the water comes to a boil cook the pasta. 

Fresh egg pasta even if it's spaghetti or fettuccine really isn't the same thing as dried pasta. It isn't even made from the same ingredients nor does it have the same flavor. 

BTW Italian is a good place to start because you'll have plenty of subjects to try it on (who doesn't like Italian) and it's really very simple to make. Italian food in Italy is simpler and more "pure" than Italian food in the states. Italian food in the states gets unnecessarily complex. Just keep it simple and focus on a few flavors with great pasta and you'll have winners on your hands.

Grant


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## jason

You know Grant it is funny for you to say that about making my own pasta, today i made some spaghetti. It was pretty good (i still have not had the chance to start trying my own pasta sauce yet though) I added some different things to it to spice it up. I like to spice things up, but i was telling mt roommate the same as you just said. I would love to make my own pasta, and am thinking about making other things as well like cinnimon rolls and such. A kitchen aid mixer is one thing i am really looking forward to getting but it will be one of the bigger pieces that i am going to wait and save for. I guess you can say that i amkinda scared of doing my own pasta and even breads, not really sure why because i know that if i don't pratice then it will never get better. BUT thank you very much for telling me about your pasta, i am going to try and get my kitchen set up soon but atm i am trying to get ready to move so that is where my time is now.


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## grantmasterflas

Jason,
Pasta is easy, bread is magic. I know people that have been cooking for years that can't make a loaf of bread! There's a lot more tactical "feel" to bread whereas pasta you just follow the directions. 

You missed a great sale on Kitchenaid this Christmas season. They had the 600 Pro ($499) on sale for $219 after rebate. I thought about buying 20 of them and selling them on ebay for $300 ea!

I also replaced my food processor with a Kitchenaid and can't believe I didn't do it sooner. The kitchenaide rips through about anything including pasta dough and doesn't even complain. 

Grant


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## grantmasterflas

Oh, red sauces for pasta are easier than you might think. Start with crushed tomatoes and fresh herbs and go from there. If you do what a lot of beginner cooks do and try to add spices to Prego you'll just be battling blandness. Starting fresh isn't any harder.

Grant


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## jason

I found a good site for Kitchenaid i believe, buykitchenaid.com i think it will be good for me and if not i can always go better later. it was a 5 quart mixer with the small utensil set the mixer bowl cover, pasta maker and a cook book for $300. I would love to get all kitchenaid for my kitchen, maybe in time. 

As for the pasta sauce that it was i have been doing is just useing ragu as a base to start, but the only way it tastes any good at all is if i quater up some roma tomatos and saute onions with portabello mushrooms. But your right i am sure that a homemade sauce would be so much better. So if i may ask you, do you use only crushed tomatos for your sauce or do you use tomato paste as well?


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## grantmasterflas

Jason, making it from scratch won't take much longer than what you're doing and will taste much better. I start with 2 cans of whole tomatoes. You might think using fresh tomatoes would be better but the quality is all over the board with fresh tomatoes. Anyway drain two cans of tomatoes but keep the juice. Heat veggie oil in a skillet until shimmering and throw in a diced onion and cook until it's translucent. Then throw in with the onion some dried oregano (1/2 tsp) and a couple cloves of minced garlic and stir for about 30 seconds. Add all the tomatoes except one from the strainer and cook stirring for about 10 minutes until the tomatoes start to brown a bit. Pour in 1/3 c of red wine and stir for about a minute until the alcohol is mostly gone. Add the tomato juice that you kept and cook for about 10 minutes. Add the remaining tomato that you kept back and blend in a food processor. I don't know what kind of equipment you have but even a cheap junky food processor from Walmart will do here. You might be able to get away with a blender but be very careful not to puree your sauce. You still want it a bit chunky when done. 

When you get it to the consistancy that you want put it back on the stove and add several tablespoons of fresh chopped basil (yes fresh!) and some olive oil, salt and pepper to taste. You may want to add a bit of sugar for sweetness depending on how it's turned out. 

I've been a bit vague on measurements because this is basically a base sauce that you can do anything you want with. If you're already adding onion and spices to Ragu you're not that far off of doing it with caned tomatoes. The only added expense would be having a bottle of red wine around and some fresh basil. This sauce tastes alive though whereas the spiced up Ragu is going to be very flat. 

I'd suggest you get some fresh basil, some garlic a bottle of Merlot and some onions and make this sauce over and over and keep track of how much of each thing you're using and fine tune it to your taste buds. You're probably looking at about $4 for a fairly large batch (64 oz) of this sauce. Not only does it not cost more but it tastes quite a lot better and once you have it memorized and you don't have to look at a recipe it goes very fast. Besides red pasta sauce is a great place to start cooking because it's hard to mess up.

If you're cooking spaghetti at the same time I'd start a large pot of water boiling about the time you're putting the tomatoes in the pan. That way your noodles and the sauce will be done at the same time.

Grant


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## grantmasterflas

Jason,
By the way, you really don't have to slave over your home made sauce for hours like people think. Start to finish this sauce is done in about an hour. It will take about half that to boil water and cook noodles. 

Grant


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## jason

Grant

Well that is a whole lot better then i would have thought, i was thinking like you see in the movies and what not of simmering the sause for hrs and then getting to eat. I am really not sure why i am so scared of cooking sauces i know i will more then likely mess up one or twice and i have to deal with that. That recipe you gave me just now sounds so simple, and your i could do almost anything with it. I actually have a bottle of red ine at home already cause i use it to cook roast in the crock pot, it tastes really nice. so really all i am missing is the freash basil. I will see where i can get some come the weekend when i don;t have to work and will give that auce a try.


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## grantmasterflas

It really is easy and flexible. You can use your imagination and modify it without needing a whole lot of cooking knowledge. If you like more garlic (I do) than add more. Add enough olive oil to give it the flavor you like, Basil etc... You really can't screw it up, it just won't have as much flavor as you'd like. The only thing you can do is leave the dry spices in the pan for longer than 30 seconds and burn them or cook the tomatoes and burn them but that's easy to avoid.

Grant


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## jason

Yeah i am pretty good about not burning things. I will try this weekend and let you know howit goes!


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## jason

OK i now have the joy of cooking 75th Anniversary cookbook. And just want i have glanced through i can tell you i already love it!


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## ed buchanan

I have Wearever heavy aluminum saucepans that I received when I graduated culinary school over 45 years ago. They cook great, clean easy can go in oven and dont warp. I would put them up against any of the pots made today


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## sheffy

I like using cast iron cookware but would not pay Le Creusets prices because I believe you are just paying for the name . You can buy the same thing much cheaper from other French firms.


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## jason

Sheffy i havesome cast iron stuff and i love how it cooks but i am using a brand named "lodge" it is the same brand my mother and grand mother use. =)


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## sheffy

Yes, you don't have to pay the earth. We use and sell Normandy and it is absolutely brilliant. You can use the casseroles on top of the hob as well as in the oven which is a bonus. The cast iron distibutes the heat easily and also keeps the food warm.


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## boar_d_laze

Sheffy and Jason -- you guys are at cross purposes. Sheffy's talking about enamel over (fairly light) cast iron, and Jason's talking about (fairly heavy) naked cast iron. While they've got a lot in common, they're different beasts.

The cast/enamel cookware is impervious to acid, and can be cleaned fairly harsh detergents. The enamel surface is reasonably slick -- compared to most stainless anyway -- but cannot be said to be non-stick. The enamel inevitably (and fairly quickly) stains, and eventually cracks. 

Plain cast iron, like Lodge, is usually made even heavier than enamel over cast. You can't cook high-acid foods, such as tomato, vinegar, or citrus based sauces in them. When seasoned, the surfaces become as non-stick as cookware gets. Seasoned cast iron should be cleaned very carefully. A rinse, some mild soap, a quick brush with a soft brush, a rinse and dry, dry, dry. Some people don't use soap at all for fear of ruining the "season." 

One of the great virtues of cast iron is its ability to hold heat, but the obverse of this is that it's not very responsive. The Lodge-type is steadier but less responsive than the Normandy type. 

Both types are useful and it's nice to have a few specimens of each -- especially plain cast skillets, and high-sided enamel over cast casseroles.

Hope this clarifies,
BDL


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## jason

You know BDL sometimes i wonder what don't you have in that head of yours? haha I have seen enamel cast iron but wasn't sure what was different but nowi know! Thanks, oh yeah you gonna get back to me on the biscuits?? =)


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## shel

Hi, I wasn't going to jump in here as one person's experience with just a few pots may not mean much, however, FWIW ...

I've a couple of Le Creuset Dutch/French ovens, both of which date back to around 1980 or so, both of which are white inside and out. Neither has any stains, and neither has cracked or shows any signs of cracking.

shel


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## sheffy

Our experience has been pretty much the same. Never heard of them cracking or anyhing detrimental at all.


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## boar_d_laze

Always good to learn something good.

BDL


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## macic

One point to bear in mind if you are thinking of cookware preferences is whether it will be for use on an induction cooktop. If so it needs a ferrous base - for more details check out induction-cooktop.com


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## sheffy

You can't get more ferrous based than cast iron. If you want to know if it is ferrous based i.e. iron then just test with a magnet. If it sticks then it is okay for induction.


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## phatch

The magnet is a good test for induction compatibility. There's a broad range of 300 series stainless steels that are non-magnetic and would not be good for an induction cooktop.

Of course, all the non-stick aluminum out there won't work either.

Phil


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## woodsboy

I too love All-Clad, it has taken me a long time to build my set but its worth it. My Mom bought me my first piece when was in my early 20s and now I have about 25 pieces of All-Clad as well as some Calphalon. I have a few All-Clad non-stick on hard anodized that I bought on sale and they are alot better than Circulon or other cheapy brands and also have worn well compared to the Calphalon non-stick. Of course I dont measure the worth of the brand by the non-stick stuff, but if you do want a piece or two of non-stick, the All-Clad seems to be the best.


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## justmestarting

Hello MudBug 
Thank you for the links to the pots and pans. Itdefinitely helps me to educate myself and be armed with information when I go to the store. I like to handle the pot or pan. I have to replace my two pots purchased years ago and your information is most helpful. Off :bounce:shopping now. :bounce:


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## Cecelia Harris

While a good pressure cooker like Kuhn Rikon Duromatic is likely to last several decades, a smart shopper will consider the quality of the company and its pledge to stand behind its products in case you missed some points.


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