# Richmond Ultimatum



## doubleojon (Jul 25, 2011)

Looks pretty dern sweet. Your thoughts?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riulst25gy.html


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Looks kinda like advertising...

I'm sure the knife is nice, but that being said, the things I enjoy most about this forum are the experienced reviews by real users...pluses and minuses laid out with practical reasoning.  I do look forward to hearing all about these (American made) knives once people have a chance to put them to the test...

...off my rant...

Peace,

Chinacats


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_OK. Now I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin ..._

_Mark Richmond _knives of *CKTG* are high quality, really good bang for the buck knives. All videos are some sort of advertising. I don't think this knife needs anything to help it. I just want to watch videos for their coolness.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I plan to wait for the batch in M390! Right now the _Ultimatum_ is at the top of my list. My only reason for pause is that he offers essentially the same knife made by Moritaka in Aogami for $70 less. I'm sure it's worth the $250 to get that "Uber Steel" but saving money and getting it sooner...


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## doubleojon (Jul 25, 2011)

Not sure why he thought it was advertising... I just wanted to know people's opinions on this steel. The profile is pretty highly touted on these forums, so I was interested to see the reactions. I'm seriously considering one of these, however, I stumbled upon a page from their site through Google listing this same knife in Damascus Steel. It's going to be $400 though :-(


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

This knife appears to have more belly and is not as thin as the Masamoto, especially at the tip. I have to wonder what they were thinking when they were making those clips. They should title that video how NOT to cut an onion and that poor Orange...LOL. I'm sure they were just trying to show the knife is sharp but it falls a bit flat when you could get the same result with a cleaver.

In either event the real test for this knife will be when we see hands on feedback. A knife is far more than just the grade of steel.

If these are indeed made in the USA with US steel then I will also be watching closely.

FWIW I nearly responded to this thread yesterday but stopped short because I thought it was just advertising as well.  There is a lot of shilling going on with knives today. Free knives for reviews etc.

Just sayin.

Dave


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

You surprise me, talking about shilling and Mark Richmond in the same post. You don't know the products you speak of. The onion video was just fine. I'll be willing to guess that the onion was cut cleaner and faster in the video than could be done by >98.6% of the posters here. Maybe you could post up some videos of your skills and abilities, along with the reviews of knives you've made.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm not sure that many knives are given away in exchange for reviews.  To clarify a statement I made that could be construed that way:  Mark did give me a prototype in exchange for my feedback as a culinary pro on what, if anything, needed to be changed.  This was in no small part to the fact that I'd already bought perhaps a dozen knives from him as well as sharpened a number of blades for him before sale.  I was never required nor instructed to publish a review in exchange for free products.

I'm sure Mark has no need to "buy" reviews in this manner anyway, nor would it be the most cost effective way to advertise!  He has legions of customers as it is, and no need to pay them for reviews.  His service is so superb that he was many happy customers that love the chance to offer their feedback.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Dave,

How about some specifics regarding the who and what of those reviews you purport to be bought? 

BDL


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## spikedog (Feb 21, 2011)

duckfat, i am sure you are one of those guys that see's a nice knife in action and says to your self, "i can do that with a 10 dollar kiwi or some other piece of junk,mark is making some great knives and i have bought a few of his plus many others,so just let it go,


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I've watched a lot of knife videos. I've never bought any anything because of a video. I like watching the videos because of the action. In one particular video I even don't agree with how the guy is cutting, but still his action is beautiful. Also, before I forget, I like some videos because of the music. Among other things, I'm a professional chef. One of the best jobs I've worked was in a butcher shoppe that had a deal with a commercial knife service. We always had very sharp knives. Nobody could care or even knew what the brands were, but they were always sharp. My own personal knives are either _Chicago Cutlery_ or _Victorinox Forschner_. Any could be replaced for <$20. My dishes don't get sent back. Nobody has ever told me that anything I've ever served would taste or look better if I was using a $600 knife. Sharp is sharp; quality is quality; skills are skills. One of the most valuable knives I've ever bought was a $10 _Ginsu_ _(I actually got 2/$10)_ one(1) is in my auto tool box. It's the best thing going for exhaust parts, hoses and pain-in-the-butt belts. The other is in my tackle box. You can buy a quality knife, you can buy _(or do)_ quality sharpening. You just aint'e gonna buy no skills, you gotta learn them.

_Nice knife, beautiful skills/action, *fantastic music*:_

*Tojiro White #2 Nakiri*


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Phaedrus said:


> Mark did give me a prototype in exchange for my feedback


 I had no idea you were working for Mark but I was surprised to see your comment in an earlier thread where you said you wanted to come off as a "shill". Facetious or not you were obviously paid by CKTG for a review. Having said that what I posted upthread was in no way directed at you, or about you.

In either event one give away, or several give aways in exchange for a review really amounts to the same thing in the end. The person Mark has posting uTube videos that never discloses his relationship with CKTG is a prime example. 

 Mark has offered give aways in the past to any one posting feedback for items he sells on his site. That is certainly "buying" feedback and reviews. There's just no way around it. While no positive reviews were "required" I'm certain no one expected to win or receive any thing for posting a negative review. 

CKTG has gone down this path on other forums so there's little reason not to suspect it here. That's probably why the majority of sites have banned threads that start like this or have taken even more stringent measures. Then there was the deal where Mark offered discounts/drawings etc to any one including a link to his web site in their post or on their profile. Loaners for review can fall in the same category. The reviews are being solicited from people that wouldn't ordinarily review the product and advertising in the form of "reviews" on various sites is expected in return. I'm sure most of us would have a very different view of any thing we get for free. There are those who are open and offer unbiased reviews with the good and the bad but there are others who are simply biased and try to sell product. 

I've bought from Mark in the past and that's something that I've mentioned here many times. I have suggested him as a vendor myself but that really doesn't change the nature of the advertising tactics they have employed. 

I'll remain interested in seeing unbiased and unsolicited reviews of this knife in the future from those who purchase it. 

Dave


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## spikedog (Feb 21, 2011)

no doubt mark and Phaedrus are very close, but mark is a stand up guy and stands behind all his products, i bet if you asked him to borrow a Ultimatum for a review he would have no problem with it for a small deposit maybe


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> Dave,
> 
> How about some specifics regarding the who and what of those reviews you purport to be bought?
> 
> BDL


BDL,

I surely have ultimate respect for what you have to say regarding knives and interestingly many other subjects as well. As to this subject, I have seen you look to others on these forums for professional advice when purchasing new knives so you understand the consumer end of things. That being said, I have seen on multiple occasions recently where you said as a disclaimer that you were doing some paid writing for Mark...I feel that this does qualify for the discussion at hand, do you disagree? I still have respect for what you say and wouldn't question the integrity of your reviews, but let's at least call a spade a spade--or advertising advertising.

Peace,

Chinacats


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Since I obviously have ruffled some feathers here, let me at least restate my viewpoint which is just that...a viewpoint.

Let me begin by saying that I like to view myself as a fairly well informed consumer, sorting through the BS is what most often gets you to the point of knowledgeable decision making.

1) I have bought multiple Japanese knives from Mark and have spoken to him on the phone quite a few times--in my opinion he has been very helpful and honest.
2) His service is exceptional as are Koki and Jon's by way of reputation.
3) If I hadn't read multiple message boards I would not have bought from CKTG--meaning that when first visiting his site there are so many blow sunshine up your a#% reviews that I automatically call BS...as I do on any other site with almost perfect reviews where everyone names the owner by name. Again, this is not directed at Mark though I would feel more comfortable if his reviews weren't blaring out on every page...again almost all are positive (with only few random exceptions). Why not eliminate them completely...most are nothing but fairly honest attempts by folks to make themselves feel good about their last $200 knife purchase...almost none have any useful product descriptions unless you count people talking about oob sharpness which is a freaking joke--as at least most everyone here is aware. Again, this is Mark's business and he can and should run it as he sees best fit, I just feel as if most of this type information is insulting to the average consumer. Soliciting positive reviews on forums is sketchy business and the reputation that could follow is something that would likely tarnish (not patina) your business for some time to come--again not accusing, just stating appearance/perception.
4) I am not a professional cook though I have spent considerable time in professional kitchens--I understand a chef/cook taking advantage of a fair offer, but at least be up front about the background.
5) I treasure the reviews and information that I can glean from this and other forums. This means that I come here for unbiased (or at least as much as possible) information by technically qualified users. I can usually weed out what I need just from searching through older threads, finding too much information is usually the problem.
6) When people are talking highly about a product they have not tried I get suspicious. When people scream in defense, I get more suspicious...I'm just saying...
7) I am in no way questioning anyone's integrity and hope there is no real reason to do this.
8) The OP asked for your thoughts--I obliged--only with my honest opinion.

All this being said, I do hope that Mark can help to regenerate interest in American made knives--whatever god you may or may not believe in would know that more products made in this country are a good thing. I sure can't afford _most_ of the good quality knives made in the states, at least his knives are affordable for the masses (though more expensive than the Sab he is supposedly copying), and with some good R&D (including feedback from you chefs) he may have a shot. I just want to see it done the right way so I can feel good about potentially trying one myself and then possibly recommending his knives to others.

One final note, I do think that from the picture of the knife, the profile looks to be more rounded than my Sab's but that could just be the dynamics of photography.

Let's all go have a beer,

Cheers,

Chinacats


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## spikedog (Feb 21, 2011)

well said, o.k. i"m buying!


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Nice handle.  Somewhat thick and sturdy with a significant distal taper to a long, pointy, thin tip.  A workhorse type knife.  I'd like to see a little better finish on the blade grind for $200.  Overall a nice knife and made in the U.S.A. is kinda cool and somewhat rare these days.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

DuckFat said:


> I had no idea you were working for Mark but I was surprised to see your comment in an earlier thread where you said you wanted to come off as a "shill". Facetious or not you were obviously paid by CKTG for a review. Having said that what I posted upthread was in no way directed at you, or about you.


That was actually a typo- I meant to say I _*didn't *_want to come off a shill but I noticed it too late to change it. I take no offense, but for information my review does not appear at all at the CKtG site since I only tried the prototype, not the production blade. The "review" was feedback for him, and it was more "rewards program" for a "frequent flyer" than a bribe.

I don't work for CKtG in any conventional sense. If anything I am an independent contractor. I have done finish sharpening for a couple handfuls of knives, but beyond that I have no affiliation except as a long standing (and happy) customer.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

BTW, I don't think it's a "joke" to discuss OOtB sharpness.  I could personally care less if it's sharp OOtB- I almost always sharpen a new knife before I use it no matter how sharp it is.  So far I've only ever found one that I doubt I could improve upon, and technically it was finish sharpened before the sale but after the maker was done with it.  But lots of people do care.  For non-enthusiasts, the sharpest the knife will ever be is when it's new.  So if it's not very sharp new they're in for disappointment.

I also disagree that allowing users to post reviews damages their worth.  Amazon.com is a great example of reviews that are very useful.  While it's true that there are few bad reviews @ CKtG, just peruse the products- Mark doesn't sell much "junk".  If you don't like the knife it's probably because it didn't suit your particular style or you got a defective piece. 

Lastly, I probably shouldn't even have mentioned that I occasionally sharpen knives for Mark.  I get no discount at all when I purchase from him, nor do I get any kind of "kickback" for posting a review.  For all I know he doesn't even read them.  If you read any of my reviews I think you'll find they're pretty much "warts and all."

I will almost certainly buy an Ultimatum when the M390 models come in, and I will certainly share my opinions here and elsewhere.  Take them with a grain of salt if you will but I pull no punches.  A disappointing product will be described as such.  So far CKtG has a pretty strong track record.  The only issue I'm aware of is a batch of Addict 2s that had some noticeable overgrind on the last 2 mm near the right heel.  Those of use who sharpened them for Mark put a couple hours per knife into fixing the issue, so anyone who bought one finish sharpened never would have noticed.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Phaedrus,

I do not call into question your integrity.  That being said, "If anything I am an independent contractor.  I have done finish sharpening for a couple handfuls of knives, but beyond that I have no affiliation..." or "The "review" was feedback for him, and it was more "rewards program" for a "frequent flyer" than a bribe," this to me is an affiliation...again not saying you can't be unbiased, but as an independent contractor it is not wise to step on the hand that may be writing you a check...or giving you a discount on knives.  It is more than obvious that most people are extremely happy purchasing from Mark (again, include me here), though this is not my point...I just want to know when that affiliation exists, because then I have the ability to take it with a grain of salt.  As BDL has stated numerous times lately, he is being paid to do some writing for Mark...fine and I will take that too with a grain of salt--especially when he recommends a Richmond knife--not because of any lack of integrity (or any issue with the knife itself), but because sometimes these things influence our words/ideas, intentionally or not.

As to oob sharpness, I agree that many will enjoy this particular quality...worthless as it is to anyone with decent sharpening skills.  Most of the same people that will enjoy this will also be swayed by the 'sucker reviews' on the site as well.  Sucks to be them.

Peace,

Chinacats


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

My agreement with Mark includes his agreement that I approach any reviews and equipment recommendations with complete independence.  While I think I have a "duty to disclose," I don't think the agreement has created bias on my part.  If anyone thinks my integrity is compromised, they should approach the matter directly.

I listen to everyone -- not just "pros."  

BDL


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

LOL. With all this _"taking w/ a grain of salt"_, it just goes to show that so many of you don't want "reviews". No, no, no ... what you want is for someone to agree with what you think, thus justifying whatever you want. I've never read a _"*Phaedrus* Review"_, but given who he is, I'd have faith in it whatever the product. I've never read a "Richmond-made" knife review from _*BDL*_. My guess would be that he was a MAC or K-Sab reviewer. Do I need any salt?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

This seems to be an age-old dilemma for any enthusiast market. Reviewers can't afford to buy all the product that wants reviewing and does donating product bias the reviewer?

I think the net gain to the consumer is positive with donated product as otherwise, there wouldn't be enough comparative reviews to work from.

As you read a reviewer, you learn what that reviewer likes. It's not so much that you need to agree with the reviewers conclusions as to learn how to work from the reviewers known preferences to how they match yours.

For example. most movie critics dislike science-fiction movies. As I'm a fan of sci-fi, I've learned that reviews by certain critics merit 2 stars more for my preferences if the movie is science fiction. So even negative reviews can work favorably for your preferences once you learn the quirks of the reviewer. Did it matter that the critic got to see the movie for free and was compensated for his time writing the review? Nope, the information is still useful and valid, but I have to learn to read the reviewer.

There are problems with on-line reviews. Amazon's reviews and ratings are actually less useful than you'd think once you do the analysis. 



 reveals a lot of the myth behind the J-curves of Amazon's reviews. It's long, but very enlightening.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

BDL, if I have in any way questioned your integrity on this issue then I certainly misspoke. I refer to you because you are the only person here willing to at least state openly that you have some type of working relationship with CKTG. I would still prefer to take you with a gos (albeit a superfine grain of fleur de sel) simply because having any relationship has potential to 'put on the blinders,' so to speak...I really feel that it takes super extra effort to avoid these pitfalls and no doubt that if anyone can, it would be you. As to your reviews, you have a way of detailing profiles, edge performance, etc. that makes sense to those of us who are slightly (at best) less informed. Being able to interpret why what works for you may or may not work for someone else with the same knife is a truly valuable skill that you seem generous enough to be willing to take on many times a day...it truly is appreciated (same goes for a few others here as well).

Iceman, I think you have missed my point so will only try to clarify simply that I *do *want reviews by people who know what they are talking about (you, BDL, and others)...this is why I peruse these boards. I truly believe that the information available to users on these sites is tremendous, although I wouldn't feel comfortable citing any of it as a reliable source in any type of reference work:>) I want these views/reviews as unbiased as possible and herein lies my problem...I have the feeling/impression that many here are unduly influenced by Mark for whatever reason that is. You of all people jump up and down in defense when I mention a possible conflict of interest perplexes to say the least. I understand you to only use Forschner and Chicago Cutlery (old school that is), while Mark's site is anything but this. As to taking you with a grain of salt--yes a very large chunk (and maybe some garlic, cumin, turmeric, asafetida, mustard seeds, Trinidad 7-pot...). Please realize that your constant reminders as to the usefulness of skills are not to be neglected, but I do think you tend to be the race car driver that prefers driving his '62 Ford pickup (read Forschner) that runs like a top (first class edge) to work while the guy next door putts to work in his 2012 Porsche (Masamoto)...and yes your neighbor can't drive worth a crap...that being said you both take great pleasure in the drive...remember many here are not chefs and have no desire to be able to bust out the slick knife skills you or some of the others are capable of...just fyi, I too take great pleasure in peeling apples/potatoes with my carbon Suji, though likely not as fast as you could...and while I know that it is plain wrong, I only do it because I can:>)

I promise this is my last post on the subject,

Cheers,

Chinacats


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_*LOL*_. OK _*Chinacats*_. I guess I've got to explain too. I'm influenced by Mark in a very simple way. He has given to me freely his time and knowledge whenever I've called and talked his ear off. I haven't got any special deals, certainly nothing product-wise for free. All I've gotten was quality professional friendly personal customer service, for free. After that, _*LOL* again_, I'm not the old-time dinosaur I may come off as. I use the knives I do because I'm generally broke. Let me tell you, _CC_ and _VF_ knives aren't the end all, just what I have. There are all kinds of cool new/different products that I'd like. I am very much old-school though. All that part about _"the constant reminders as to the usefulness of skills"_ is maybe just my answer to so many non-professional _"home cooks"_ talking about specs that don't much ever come up professionally. I'm not saying that that is bad, just the view from _my_ side.

**** _By-the-way ... I don't have any special knife skills. I just don't work in any way that I have to do anything over again. _


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Oh, well...not much more to say, I guess. There are guys who only trust _Consumer Reports_ because they don't take advertising; supposedly _Car & Driver_ won't be honest about a Chevy because GM might not spend any money on print ads there if they don't say nice things. I get that and I imagine to some degree it may happen. But to me it's a little bit "tinfoil hat" to think we're all dancing on CKtG's strings./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif He's never once asked me to write something nice, nor have I ever felt compelled to do so just to make him happy. Same goes for Amazon reviews- I'm pretty blunt. So far I've never bought anything from CKtG that I wasn't happy with. Of course, partly that's because I'm a pretty educated kitchen consumer.

That said, I'm not offended in the slightest if you discount all of my reviews. All a review could possibly be would be a data point, hopefully one of many that a prospective buyer would weigh before making a purchase. My opinion might be very valuable if you knew me and my likes and dislikes very well. Say you and I had 10 knives that were the same. If I gave a detailed opinion on each of them you'd pretty quickly be able to tell how our tendencies compare. Then, by what I've said in the past you might be able to glean a lot of info even from my review of a knife I hated.

I will say though that your risks are pretty low when dealing with CKtG. They're good guys, and they want happy customers. They'll treat you right.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Where are the reviews of the Ultimatum?  I haven't seen any yet.  In the link at the beginning of this thread there was just a video and there are videos for darn near everything on CKTG.  I'd love to read a review where someone is blowing smoke up the rear end of this knife talking about how great it is.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

racineboxer said:


> Where are the reviews of the Ultimatum? I haven't seen any yet. In the link at the beginning of this thread there was just a video and there are videos for darn near everything on CKTG. I'd love to read a review where someone is blowing smoke up the rear end of this knife talking about how great it is.


OK, I lied about no more on this thread...you guys are great...please see post 17...I think you already did that...AAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHH!

Chinacats


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

phatch said:


> I think the net gain to the consumer is positive with donated product as otherwise, there wouldn't be enough comparative reviews to work from.
> 
> As you read a reviewer, you learn what that reviewer likes. It's not so much that you need to agree with the reviewers conclusions as to learn how to work from the reviewers known preferences to how they match yours.
> 
> Did it matter that the critic got to see the movie for free and was compensated for his time writing the review? Nope, the information is still useful and valid, but I have to learn to read the reviewer.


With all due respect I really disagree with this. When any of us read a Movie review I think we all know we are reading the words of a professional writer. Some one who is paid to watch movies and write reviews.

However that's not a very good analogy to CT and knives for a number of reasons.

When people come to CT (until recently) there hasn't been any indication that they were talking to some one who was paid to write reviews by a vendor or given a knife in exchange for a review. The notion that no one is swayed in any way after being employed, or receiving freebies simply defies human nature. The comments in this thread alone clearly show that and a few read like an on going advertisement. Clearly there is not only bias but strong bias. That's not even touching on the suggestion of just flat out being paid to write reviews.

As far as getting "to know" a reviewer I've been coming here on/off for years and had no idea some of this was going on. In retrospect it's seems as though this has been going on for some time. I recall a bit of discourse when I ordered directly from Ikkanshi-Tafatsuna and the suggestion was put forth that no one should order directly from Japan but rather from CKTG. So there has indeed been a push by some members here towards a single vendor for some time.

That certainly has an impact on any forum.

The main reason I posted in this fiasco was what I viewed as a personal attack on a member that had a difference of opinion at the top of the thread. The offending post does seem to have had some judicious editing (for the better) so it doesn't read quite the same now. I have seen other forums with paid vendor reps participating get dominated by "cliques". Any one that disagrees or has a difference of opinion gets railed and piled on. That limits participation and fair consumer evaluation of the products we talk about. I'm making the assumption that's why CT has an explicit rule against posting reviews of products from those you are, or have been have been employed by in the past. I didn't care much for cliques in high school and still don't.

In either event If I didn't make it clear upthread I was not referring to any one here at CT in regards to "shilling" but it is quite clear CKTG does pay for reviews and use free product as incentive to write reviews. At least this is openly being discussed and is hopefully a step in the right direction.

Dave


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Dave,

I have great respect for you, but disagree strongly.

If you read a bunch of reviews here on CT, what you'll find is that very few people know diddly about knives but that they LOVE the knives they bought and think they're all 5/5. To my mind that's a bigger waste of bandwidth than reviews written by people who know something and are able to make meaningful comments, comparisons and create a meaningful context -- whether or not the knives were comped.

I've received a couple of knives in exchange for reviews -- but none from CKtG. One of those reviews is here on CT, it's for the Forschner 10" Cimeter. I like the knife, use it frequently, think its very good for what it is, but only gave it 3 out of 5 stars. Read the review and find the bias. Heck, just find disagreement. I dare you.

As it happens I get quite a few things at discount not because I promise reviews (I don't do many), but because I ASK for them. If you choose to pay [gag] retail without at least investigating the price, that's between you and your conscience. Furthermore, comping or discounting equipment to reviewers is standard practice. If you watch E-Bay you'll see scores of knives sold by professional and influential amateur reviewers.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to recommend CKtG for the service and selection, applaud Mark for keeping his ear to the ground, and judge every one of their offerings I try on its own merits. In the same way, I'll continue to recommend JKI for its service and well chosen selection, applaud Jon for his knowledge, discernment, and the way he aggressively approaches his own and his customers' educations, and judge every one of their offerings I try on its own merits -- despite the fact that not only do I not get a discount but Jon owes me a beer.

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have great respect for you, but disagree strongly.
> 
> ...


That's mutual BDL. Just because every one here doesn't always see eye to eye on every topic it doesn't imply there's any loss of respect.

Having said that it is my personal belief that those who get paid for reviews, receive discounts, loaners or any other form of compensation should simply refrain from commenting on those products or suggesting those vendors in other threads.

If they can not or will not, I think that says far more than I could ever put in to words.

If all those folks who are happy with their knives or other purchases stop participating or posting reviews on CT simply because a paid reviewer doesn't think they know "diddly" then I'd venture a guess that participation here will only slip further.

At least that's my .02 (adjusted for inflation)

Dave


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't think they should refrain, just disclose.  I'd rather have the opportunity to determine for myself how much credence to afford their review.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

DuckFat said:


> I recall a bit of discourse when I ordered directly from Ikkanshi-Tafatsuna and the suggestion was put forth that no one should order directly from Japan but rather from CKTG.
> 
> Dave


How's your Japanese? Better than mine, I hope!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif I don't think that's a conspiracy to build up CKtG so much as a reflection of the difficulties of dealing direct with a company half the world away while conducting business in another language. A friend of mine conducts business with his Japanese agents every day, and even with a skilled interpreter it's fraught with risks and frustrations.

Sorry, not trying to snipe or cherry pick lines to rebut, just pointing out that it's nice to let someone else worry about the language barrier, allowing me to just get my danged knife!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I never had any language issues and don't speak a word of Japanese. It's very common for Japanese companies to have an English speaking Rep. Most of them put US re-sellers to shame when it comes to customer service. That's simply a part of their culture. I've ordered from and spoken directly to Koki at JCK, Hidekei at Ikkanshi and Suisin (via Dreamworks) many times and never had any issues. I've no idea if it's fear or some thing more nefarious that promotes the idea that it's overly complicated ordering direct but that has not been my experience. Shipping was easy and cost effective. I would expect your "friend" with the interpreter is having issues with customs due to importing products to re-sell. A retail customer never has to deal with that. Kitchen knives ship direct to your home from Japan. I've received items just as fast as I have from WI and I'm only a few states away. All this will of course depend on which company you buy from and of course there are numerous free language converters now.

Dave


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think you pretty much covered the short list!  Sure, the bigger companies have some reps conversant in English.  But that's not at all true of most of the companies.  In Tokyo English is pretty common.  But according to everyone I know that's spent time in Japan, English is pretty rare in Kyoto.  And Kyoto has a much better claim to being the knife capital of Japan than Tokyo!

You're right about Koki, though.  JCK is a great place to shop if they have the item you want.  I'm always amazed at how fast EMS gets stuff from Japan to my doorstep!  They're another company that sources some hard-to-find items that I love.  The best example for me is the Kagayaki CarboNext.  Initially this was pretty much a rebranded Kikuichi TKC.  Over the last year or two the lines have diverged a bit but the CarboNext remains one of my favorite knives.  In fact, I'm having my 240 rehandled as soon as I can get it to the UPS store.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Many of the major makers have English speaking reps but certainly we can find some that would be more difficult. I haven't dealt with Aritsugu but I'd venture a guess they'd be on the list of being more difficult to deal with as well as many of the smaller makers. However there are a number of sites set up for direct ordering. I can think of examples where it would work to a buyers benefit either way. I find it a lot more fun getting a package from Japan but I do agree that won't always work. Perhaps we should start a list of those we can order direct from or even better yet ask for a sticky thread and create a complete list of knife makers, custom makers, language converters and retailers so we can get back to talking about knives and not dealers. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

http://www.suisin.co.jp/English/

http://www.kikuichimonji.com/

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/index.htm

http://kikuichi.net/

http://www.mizunotanrenjo.jp/index_e.html#

http://www.shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools

Ikkanshi which is sadly closed. No idea if it's a result of the Japanese disaster or just temporary;

http://www.itkitchenknife.com/e_index.shtml


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Watanabe has the funniest site, for sure.  I remember his "busy-ness" chart from a couple years ago.  Yeah, some of the makers are easy to deal with, many are hard to work with if you don't speak Japanese.


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## chefknivestogo (Mar 24, 2012)

Dave,

I don't pay for reviews on our site. Period. When a customer places an order for a knife they are given an automated email after 20 days that asks for a review and sends them to the form. That's how they get into the site. There are somthing like 2,000 reviews on the stie and all of them were given to us by actual users. Most of my customers enjoy them.

With respect to the videos, some of them are in fact paid or done with trades. Some pictures are paid for as well but many of both are given to me for free. Videos take work to do and they're for entertainment mostly to exibit the knife in action. I think they add something to the site. The sharpening videos on the site that I mostly did myself are the most popular pages on the website.

As for the knife in question they've been on sale for about 2 weeks so there are not that many out there yet. If you have any other questions on the Ultimatum or any other knife I have planned I would be happy to aswer them. 

One other thing. BDL gave me an article to publish in my newsletter for free which was something that he wrote and published months ago on his blog. We talked about doing some newsletter articles if the future for money but none of that has happened yet. He's a damn good writer and very knowledgable so I'm looking forward to working with him in the fuure. If I do ask him to write about a particular knife in the future you can be sure that I'll send him the knife in questions (unless he has one all ready) so he can try it. If he likes it or not that's up to him. I just sent a Grand Chef to writer at Cooking Light when they called and said they wanted to write and review it. Usually they send it back when they're done with it. I didn't ask them what they were going to say and the same goes with BDL.

Thanks all you folks for paying attention to my knives. I appreciate you even considering them against some of the other great knives out in the world.

Mark


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I had some problem with editing and duplicate posts etc but the post below should be what I meant to post etc.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I have to admit I was expecting something like this (the real subject of most replies in this thread) was going to happen, and honestly believe open discussion will be beneficial to everyone. 

The questions and concerns need to be discussed openly and without any bias towards the poster who may share an opinion that is not popular or may not be flattering to a well respected member. We need to be open in this, if response feels otherwise it may seem like the poster is being attacked for his reply or opinion, or even worse etc.


I think Mark does a fine job as a knife retailer or etailer or whatever you prefer to call it and I also think CT is one of the best sites to find good honest and usable information on many Knives including those from Japan, but I also know from first hand experience that when a site or some of its members get too close with a vendor it can create a real problem, and in some cases really degrade the value and "cheapen things" to a point that some may find uncomfortable. 

I have to be honest that this is not an easy post for me as I do want to be respectful to those who have helped me in the past (members and vendors alike) but still be clear that even when it may be with the best intentions it is not healthy when a vendor fully penetrates into the membership to a point where these relationships affect the tone, direction, feel, or integrity of opinion etc. 
It is just a bad direction for things to go and even the most unbiased sites with the most experienced members can end up being a tool for a vendor, and ultimately lose much of it's true value to its readers.

We have to remember that a enthusiasts based forum is different than a business even though it may be a profitable business itself, and that any businesses main objective is to make money and grow profits etc, but also know this is part of the issue that is creating the problem or the replies questioning the relationship.


I also know some have been trying to walk a thin line where they remain both unbiased and maintain a relationship with the vendor etc. and I also know I believe the intent once again is good.

Can this be done? Is there a point where it can not, or just a point where it changes the flavor of everything.?

I really hope you all can find a comfortable level of vendor involvement in the site so that it can remain as powerful and helpful to others in the future as it been to me in the past, and just not cheapen things to the point that everything becomes a worthless add.

I do have some other thoughts that should be helpful, but they will have to wait


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## doubleojon (Jul 25, 2011)

Holy crap, this thread caused quite a stir. 

When I originally posted, I was looking for opinions on it (mainly from people who had used knives that the profile was modeled after, and hoping someone may have even used one), and somehow it got turned into a huge ordeal over advertising.

I only order knives from CKTG, as they seem to have the best prices, and the customer service is top notch. Mark has always been very helpful when I've had questions regarding knives, and even helped me pick out one (which I love).

Anywho, Mark, the blade looks like it would be stiff, is it? I've come to the conclusion that blade flex is not for me.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

doubleojon said:


> Holy crap, this thread caused quite a stir.
> 
> When I originally posted, I was looking for opinions on it (mainly from people who had used knives that the profile was modeled after, and hoping someone may have even used one), and somehow it got turned into a huge ordeal over advertising.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm so you prefer it stiff huh.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

LennyD said:


> Hmmmm so you prefer it stiff huh. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


Thanks for keeping it classy. That really added to the dialog.


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## chefknivestogo (Mar 24, 2012)

doubleojon said:


> Holy crap, this thread caused quite a stir.
> 
> When I originally posted, I was looking for opinions on it (mainly from people who had used knives that the profile was modeled after, and hoping someone may have even used one), and somehow it got turned into a huge ordeal over advertising.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks! 

Yes the knife is stiff. I'll be making some thin sujis down the road that will have a little flex to them but I usually feel like gyutos should be stiff since they are used for so many different tasks.

Mark


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## doubleojon (Jul 25, 2011)

ORDERED! I'll be sure to let everyone know how it performs.


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## spikedog (Feb 21, 2011)

you the man mark,! thanks for every thing you do!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Ooops, missed the smiley! Just giving you some crap, LennyD!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

That's OK Phaedrus at least you refrained from joining the "RAH RAH RAH GO GO GO TEAM" club and spared us any extra juvenile cheers for the team lmao 

Now can we get back to discussing cooking Knives


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It looks like this is winding down but I have a humorous anecdote. For awhile I've been discussing knives with someone looking to get one very nice one. After many conversations he found something he liked at JCK. After a couple more discussions I suggested he e-mail Koki; he's well known to hand pick out something specifically suited to your needs. Well, after an email chat and a phone call he cheerfully offered a version that was the exact opposite of what was asked for!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif And Koki is one of the best ones. It just goes to show that communications is tricky in any language, especially a foreign one.

BTW, I think that after a few more communiques the both got on the same page. I'll probably get a chance to check out the knife next week sometime.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

a humorous anecdote...or perhaps just one more stab at the competition...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Um, I don't have any competition, buddy./img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif Is it not sinking in yet? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Oh that's right, you only work* for* Mark...and yes it has sunk like the mighty Titanic...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's become something of an article of faith that there are people paid -- or at least bribed -- to tank for CKtG who will do anything to steer business to Mark.  It's completely untrue, which makes it very distressing.  Mark is as ethical and honest as anyone in the business. 

Re. JCK:  Koki is a great guy, who will try to go the extra mile towards setting you up with a suitable knife; and JCK has an interesting selection.  Sadly, I've heard from a couple of guys who have been very unhappy with warranty and quality  issues which have gone through JCK's San Diego office.  

When it comes to matching customer to blade, you've got to give kudos to Mark and Jon too.  IMO they each do a better job than Koki of matching knife to customer.  Maybe that's because they're available by phone.  JKI's selection is extremely well edited, while CKtG's is much broader.   All three are better than Korin -- Korin can give out some strange "information."

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Please lets just try to keep all options open so that the site can best benefit it's members, and make it appear that there is some kind of steering to any merchant, and an added bonus would be the absence of people calling anyone here a paid for anything. 

I guess we may need to compare to how politicians deny any to do with favoritism towards donators etc. It may be true, and often is, but just looks bad and the many who may be on the up and up bear the brunt of those who have not been as much were.

Then again maybe just like in politics things would seem less open to problems if there were not any questionable relationships to begin with.
I mean I like CKTG and will buy from them in the future but that also applies to Japanese knife imports, cutlery and more, and others as well.

I believe where this problem stems from is how recently all the talk and reviews have been arond o.e vendor and the concurrent various relationships while the mention of others has simultaneously fallen off.

Coincidence or not this seems to be what is behind the questions and suspicions


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

chinacats said:


> Oh that's right, you only work* for* Mark...and yes it has sunk like the mighty Titanic...


Man, you're quite a piece of work! I sharpened a handful of knives sometime early last year, now you've got me on the payroll! I better see if I get full bennies! You know, 401k, vision./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

It that's how it works on your planet it must be tough to turn a profit. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

If you doubt the anecdote, email Koki. It was this week so I'm sure he'll remember the guy.


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm a relative newbie to both this forum and high-quality knives.

While I think it is helpful to know about any type of business relationship between a reviewer (or poster here) and the various companies, it seems a gross oversimplification to relegate an informed review to be so heavily biased to be absolutely untrustworthy because there is "some" kind of relationship.  I (along with many others, I suspect) have spent hours and hours poring over the various posts and viewpoints here, and find them incredibly helpful.  Particularly some of the more frequent posters that have a long history and experience with a wide range of knives.  I'm glad they're here, and sharing their knowledge, and even if there is some type of relationship between them and companies and they get some marginal benefit from the company, a longstanding interest in cooking knives, and an obvious interest in sharing that knowledge and experience with this community makes me think that they are doing this much more to be helpful to a lot of us here, rather than so they can get free products or business.  I also factor in the hundreds or thousands of posts people have made, and all the time spent reading and responding to various people here.  The "business relationships" noted here seem quite insignificant in comparison.

This is a relatively small community, and we, the knife-obsessed, and the companies that serve us (CKTG, JKI, JCK, etc.) need each other.  In making decisions, I consulted with both Mark and Jon, and found both to be very helpful and expedient in their replies to multiple questions.  They are different from other companies in their interest in educating and serving the community, which is also good business for them, whether it's in the short- or long-term.  I love Amazon for a lot of things, but don't expect that kind of service from them.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Personal ethics and fanboyism aside I do find it intriguing that such an ambiguous off hand comment at the start of this thread made a few jump so high.

There have been occasions where I felt that if the "steering" to a given vendor was any more obtuse it could leave the reader with blunt force trauma.

Dredging this thread back up after it was left for dead probably falls in that category as well even with the "anecdotal" story.

Dave

Edited for brevity


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey _*Duck Fat Dave*_ ... I'm curious if you have made it known that you yourself are a knife-maker and vendor? I'm also curious if anyone here has done any business with you, and what are their opinions? I'd bet that they would have good interesting reviews. I'm sure you should get some quality references from some of the *CT* members. Could you please give us a link where we could see some of your personal products please. _*TIA*_ for a heads-up here.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

IceMan said:


> Hey _*Duck Fat Dave*_ ... I'm curious if you have made it known that you yourself are a knife-maker and vendor? I'm also curious if anyone here has done any business with you, and what are their opinions? I'd bet that they would have good interesting reviews. I'm sure you should get some quality references from some of the *CT* members. Could you please give us a link where we could see some of your personal products please. _*TIA*_ for a heads-up here.


Sorry to disappoint. I'm not a knife maker or a vendor of any product. I don't get paid for reviews nor do I receive any special discounts from any vendor.

Dave


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

toddnmd said:


> I'm a relative newbie to both this forum and high-quality knives.
> 
> While I think it is helpful to know about any type of business relationship between a reviewer (or poster here) and the various companies, it seems a gross oversimplification to relegate an informed review to be so heavily biased to be absolutely untrustworthy because there is "some" kind of relationship. I (along with many others, I suspect) have spent hours and hours poring over the various posts and viewpoints here, and find them incredibly helpful. Particularly some of the more frequent posters that have a long history and experience with a wide range of knives. I'm glad they're here, and sharing their knowledge, and even if there is some type of relationship between them and companies and they get some marginal benefit from the company, a longstanding interest in cooking knives, and an obvious interest in sharing that knowledge and experience with this community makes me think that they are doing this much more to be helpful to a lot of us here, rather than so they can get free products or business. I also factor in the hundreds or thousands of posts people have made, and all the time spent reading and responding to various people here. The "business relationships" noted here seem quite insignificant in comparison.
> 
> This is a relatively small community, and we, the knife-obsessed, and the companies that serve us (CKTG, JKI, JCK, etc.) need each other. In making decisions, I consulted with both Mark and Jon, and found both to be very helpful and expedient in their replies to multiple questions. They are different from other companies in their interest in educating and serving the community, which is also good business for them, whether it's in the short- or long-term. I love Amazon for a lot of things, but don't expect that kind of service from them.


Very well said!

I believe many feel like you describe etc. and pretty much agree myself as well, but also prefer this stays that way, and honestly am not sure that any future increase in the amount of or depth of these "relationships " will benefit things remaining as we all have come to enjoy them.

That said this is still in my opinion the best site around for finding better help with decisions on quality cutlery from a very strong cooking or use standpoint and also with out at due ware near the level of fanfare and fanatical thinking that seems to drive popular thinking and opinion at some other sites.

And personally I like Chefs Talk the way it has been, and completely prefer it over the more commercially driven sites. I hope most would agree, and that these comments are welcomed


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey look, my apology. I guess I just got confused with two(2) guys named _"Dave"_. I thought you were _"Dave Martell"_. My mistake. Sorry.

*https://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/*


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## jrgordon13 (Feb 23, 2012)

Enough of the ridiculous conversation. I'd just like to know how the Ultimatum is.

James


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> That was actually a typo- I meant to say I _*didn't *_want to come off a shill but I noticed it too late to change it. I take no offense, but for information my review does not appear at all at the CKtG site since I only tried the prototype, not the production blade. The "review" was feedback for him, and it was more "rewards program" for a "frequent flyer" than a bribe.
> 
> I don't work for CKtG in any conventional sense. If anything I am an independent contractor. I have done finish sharpening for a couple handfuls of knives, but beyond that I have no affiliation except as a long standing (and happy) customer.


Since it is true that an independent contractor is _not_ a paid employee, you are right...I am wrong...but you are still associated by way of something more than simply proprietor and customer.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think Martell mostly hangs out on his own forum nowadays.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

chinacats said:


> Since it is true that an independent contractor is _not_ a paid employee, you are right...I am wrong...but you are still associated by way of something more than simply proprietor and customer.


Well, now that everyone knows each person can decide for himself/herself if that makes a difference.


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## jrgordon13 (Feb 23, 2012)

Anyone get their hands on either of the new Ultimatums yet? I'm looking to buy a new knife in the next few months, and I'm wondering if it would be good for me. I really like the Masamoto KS profile, but the actual Masamoto is a little out of my price range. I'm also interested in the Konesuke HD, but I'm worried about getting a laser for my primary knife in the kitchen. From what I've read, it seems like the Ultimatum has a bit more heft than a laser, the Masamoto KS profile, great steel, and a reasonable price. However, I'd like to get some more opinions before I move forward.

Would a Mac Pro or a Masamoto VG be a better bet for the money?

James


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## kitchen beast (Apr 12, 2011)

jrgordon13 said:


> Enough of the ridiculous conversation. I'd just like to know how the Ultimatum is.
> James


seriously. Somebody discuss the topic or change the title of this post.

craig


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## kitchen beast (Apr 12, 2011)

jrgordon13 said:


> Enough of the ridiculous conversation. I'd just like to know how the Ultimatum is.
> James


seriously. Lets get on topic or the title of this topic should be changed.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

jrgordon13 said:


> Anyone get their hands on either of the new Ultimatums yet? I'm looking to buy a new knife in the next few months, and I'm wondering if it would be good for me. I really like the Masamoto KS profile, but the actual Masamoto is a little out of my price range. I'm also interested in the Konesuke HD, but I'm worried about getting a laser for my primary knife in the kitchen. From what I've read, it seems like the Ultimatum has a bit more heft than a laser, the Masamoto KS profile, great steel, and a reasonable price. However, I'd like to get some more opinions before I move forward.
> 
> Would a Mac Pro or a Masamoto VG be a better bet for the money?
> 
> James


James I think you have some work to do, and some of it may be a little tougher than most being the Ulti is pretty new and there are less people who can offer first hand info etc.

I know your just commenting on the profile, but yes the KS looks to be very nice.

It really comes down to what you are truly looking for in your next knife (and from what I have found that may actually be very different than what you might think you want lol) and I also would not discount the Konosuke HD as first it really is not so thin you will be afraid to use it sure its a laser but this is proving more of a positive than anything else, second if your a typical home cook you will have ample time to learn to use it properly and also keep it clean etc (not under the gun for production like a pro cook is at most times etc), and lastly I have to admit the more I use my HD the more I like it, and double that feeling for the more I sharpen it too 

Sorry I can not offer any comparison to the Ulti as like I said not too many have one and I am one of them etc, but like anything else just take in all the information that is available and evaluate which you believe would better suit you etc. and ask as many questions as you can.

Maybe this will help you to get started. What is it that you like about the Ulti? how about the HD? any dislikes, or concerns?

Also have you already created a short list that includes just these two? Or are you open to others that may share some of the main characteristics of these two knives? If so which do you believe is more important to you?

I know I have had very different objectives with my knife purchases. Value and price to performance has been at the top of the list, and later so has performance, quality, steel, and price fell further down the list, and therefore have purchased very different knives depending on what I was after.

Actually I somehow thought it would be a lot easier as time went on and though my first purchase was the most difficult by far there still is a process that can not seem to be avoided if you want to be comfortable with your purchase. Also the fact that subsequent purchases seem to only increase in cost as we try to improve on the knives we have etc seems to only make things more stressful as there is a big difference between making a $50 mistake, and a $200 or $400 mistake lol.


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

LennyD said:


> ...the fact that subsequent purchases seem to only increase in cost as we try to improve on the knives we have etc seems to only make things more stressful as there is a big difference between making a $50 mistake, and a $200 or $400 mistake lol.


LOL. Thanks for concisely writing what I'm already thinking, still brand-new to good knives.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

SameGuy said:


> LOL. Thanks for concisely writing what I'm already thinking, still brand-new to good knives.


Maybe then it could or would be better to take a step back and start from the beginning.

I am sure that most who have offered all kinds of good advice would not mind going through the paces to help you out, but you may consider a different title more in line with need help choosing my first Japanese style knife etc instead of just picking between two Knives etc.

When I first found my way here I thought I knew what I wanted from reading various threads on many sites, but found out there is a lot more to this than I had thought, and ultimately after some time with the knives I did decide on that I also will end up with very different knives than I had ever anticipated (and also more expensive too) but still think the learning curve was a big part of it that also made the more expensive purchases more comfortable and better suited to my particular needs.

Make sense?


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## jrgordon13 (Feb 23, 2012)

Lenny,

Thanks for the response. You are right, the "newness factor" of the Richmond Ultimatum makes it difficult fully to evaluate. I certainly am not worried about having to spend extra time caring for my knife. I tend to baby the knives I have now, so that's not a factor (i.e., carbon is fine with me).

The others on my list besides the Ultimatum and the Konesuke HD were the Mac Pro and the Masamoto VG.

I'm not entirely sure whether I want to go with a Japanese- or a Western-style handle, however. As I mentioned before, I really like the Masamoto KS profile, though I imagine that the Konesuke HD profile wouldn't be difficult to adjust to.

I'm leaning pretty heavily toward the Konesuke HD, but I keep having the Ultimatum pop up in my mind before I seal the deal (mostly whether it's better bang-for-buck and whether I'll be more happy in the long run with the profile). I'm not in a terrible rush, so I might just hold out until more reviews of the Ultimatum hit the interwebs.

James


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The Konosuke HD wa-gyuto is in an entirely different class than the MAC Pro and Masamoto VG.  The biggest differences are weight, and their respective potentials for absolute sharpness.  While Masamotos have something of a magic profile, it's not that much better than either the MAC or the Konosuke, and unless you've narrowed down the differences between the other knives to the point where profile is determinative I wouldn't make the choice on that basis.  

In my own case, if I were buying a stainless, mass-produced, yo-gyuto I'd put the Masamoto over the MAC for just that reason; but I feel the MAC has enough advantages favoring the the first good knife purchaser so that it should be the usual choice -- at least between those two.  

The primary benefit to wa over yo is weight, otherwise one handle style isn't really superior to the other.  And if you have a reasonably good grip, there isn't much to prefer between the two or much difficulty in switching from one to the other.  One thing about them, if you're seriously interested in a wa knife, get the "next size up" compared to a yo.  The primary difference is in how their measured, but you'll also find the wa just that tiny bit more nimble.  The same is true when it comes to a well-made laser compared to a knife of ordinary (even Japanese ordinary) thickness.  And also true when comparing knives made Japanese thin (not always made in Japan now) to Euros.

I haven't got my hands on an Ultimatum.-- at least not yet -- so I'll refrain from commenting.  But when it comes to the Konosuke HD, I'm happy recommending it as a GREAT knife and the performance equal of anything else out there.  Same-same for the Masamoto KS which does have the magic profile, but also carbon's drawbacks.  I also like the Tadatsuna gyutos a great deal -- whether "Inox" (G3) or Shirogami (Shiro #2) -- and the Gesshin Gingas too.  

The MAC is the stiffest and most robust knife of the bunch, but it's still Japanese thin and Japanese hard.  That means you'll want at least one "heavy-duty" backup knife that allows you to cut through heavy gourds, through rib tips and other tough gristle, through fishbones, up against animal bones, etc.

The "maybe not for a beginner" caveat with lasers doesn't really apply to home cooks as much as to guys in a pro kitchen, either starting out or who just never developed good skills.  The blades bend very easily if they're not held square or allowed to pronate during the cut, and tend to flex too much.  On the other hand, if you're not up against a lot of time pressure, it's no big deal.  Just keep the knife straight and you'll be fine.

If you're really looking to up to your game in the kitchen, buying a high end knife is one part of the equation, the others are working on your knife and sharpening skills.  A good sharp knife and the skills to use it makes prep a lot more fun. 

BDL


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## jrgordon13 (Feb 23, 2012)

Anyone get their hands on a Richmond Ultimatum yet? Especially interested in the M390 steel.


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## mano (Dec 16, 2010)

A line cook bought an Ultimatum and is not pleased with its edge retention.  Don't know about his sharpening abilities but he's big on the  19C27 steel used in Suisen so he expected a lot more.  It's a completely different knife than my Konosuke HD; quite convex, thicker spine and it has more belly as the profile is derived from a Sabatier.  I haven't tried cutting with it yet, nor has he tried the HD.

You're interested in the M390, so the above point re: sharpening may be moot.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Which Ultimatum?  Counting the soon-to-be-released M930 version it's available in three different steels.


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## jrgordon13 (Feb 23, 2012)

Any of them.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

jrgordon13 said:


> Any of them.


 I've seen four different members post on the other knife forum that they've sent them back for a refund. Every one seems to be very tight lipped about it but there seems to be some QC issue. In either event you can search it on KKF and look for those members and contact them via PM for more detailed info. IIR the M390 was supposed to be out months ago.

Dave


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The M390 batch is running late.  I guess Lamson blew out the motor on the grinder trying to grind them.  Apparently the stuff is extraordinary tough/hard to machine and grind.

I haven't tried any of them yet but I'm eagerly awaiting the first batch in M390 to be finished.


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