# Need help deciding between Hattori HD and Konosuke HD Gyuto Xmas purcahase



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Well its been over a year since I found this forum (my absolute favorite cooking/Knife forum BTW) and I have had enough time with my choices from last year to have an idea on what I really want to add to my collection this holiday season.

I was originally going to try to add to my "set" and was looking at a slicer (suji) or a longer petty (180-210 etc) but after thinking long and hard about this for a while now I have decided that since my current Fujiwara FKM 240 Gyuto see the most use by far it may be better or will be better to purchase a higher end Gyuto to allow me to compare low end to high end etc and then be able to make a more experienced decision for future purchases.

I have settled down to two knives as they both seem to be excellent quality, and have great reviews from most everyone who has written one.

The choices are a Hattori HD  v/s  Konosuke HD  both in 240mm Gyuto.

Have to admit two things so you know before you share your thoughts (and please do so quickly as I am running out of time lol) one is that I do seriously like the looks of the damascus blade on the Hattori (really Maruyoshi) but am so intrigued by the benefits of the semi carbon or semi stainless steels that it has the logical or analytical side of my brain on fire.

So which do you believe to be the better choice, and why?

Oh and don't be shy let it fly!!!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I really thought with all the talk about the Konosuke lately (here and around the net etc) that someone here would have a really good opinion on why I am nuts for even comparing these two knives.

I also thought it would be interesting to see a comparison of what is perceived to be a good VG10 Gyuto to a great semi stainless one.

Could it be that even though so totally different the results are more similar than I thought?

Am I just letting the "cool" factor of the Damascus pattern and my inexperience get the better of me, or is it that the experience I do have with VG10 has been good and it is a safe feeling or purchase?

Also since I really had a $200 budget for this and both are just above that would a 270MM be worth going even more over budget?

One important thing I forget for the original post is if there is a real difference between the WA and YO handle versions? I see on CKTG that there is plenty of room for improvement in listing specs and descriptions but also that they show a big diff in weight and also spine thickness. Should this be of any concern as well?

Now c'mon guys and girls lets hear your thoughts.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

The Hattori HD is a clad knife, no?  (I'm not sure of this).

I haven't ever used one.  They look pretty damn great.  BDL talks about clad knives having a "damped" feeling on the board.  Or kc (on foodieforums) talks about using them being like wearing a condom.

I've never worn a condom during food prep, either, so have no experience with which to confirm or deny ;-)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wag you seem to be on a roll lately, and thanks for keeping me laughing 

Though I may have a decision made for my purchase solely due to what is left in stock now (damn I got to stop procrastinating lmao) I honestly am not sure if it is better to have made a decision based on appearance and performance plus value, or appearance alone of even just performance alone.

In reference to your point on the san mai and dead or muted feeling on the Hattori that really seems to be the only real negative I have seen (most others I did find were not issues for me etc) and even this seems to a personal thing.

Another thing for "most" to keep in mind is that there is a point where things become the splitting of hairs so to speak and also have to keep in mind when reading comparisons or reviews that what the writer is comparing to is as important if not more so than what is being reviewed.

It all comes down to what skills and experiences each individual may have, and therefore what their expectations may be.

I am fully sure that I would be happy with either of these knives, and there is no real question there as both are superior to what I am using now (and what I am using now is so far superior to what I have used in the past it is not funny) but still wanted to be able to compare these very nice but very different knives.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I almost bought a Konosuke a few weeks ago but ended up getting a once-in-a-lifetime deal on a 240mm Nubatama (normally a bit over $800!).  But the Kono is probably my next major knife purchase.  I can't comment on it from experience but everyone I know that's used one loved it.  I have had some Hattori HDs, though.  While they're certainly well made I found them underwhelming.  I'm so "over" VG-10, will probably never get another kitchen knife in that steel unless it's some specialty shape.  The suminigashi finish looks okay but it scratches very easily.  I consider them entry level knives.  For the money there's knives I'd much rather have, including the Kagayaki CarboNext.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

I have a Hattori HD 6" petty and I've had a bit of an evolution of my opinion of this knife over time.  When I first got it, I was not impressed really.  I thought the aesthetics were "nice" but not great.  It probably didn't help that the carved kanji didn't stand out all that much, it kind of blended in with the rest of the damascus type pattern.  I also felt it was insanely light, now remind you, we're talking about a petty here not a gyuto.  And therein lies my evolution... while I wasn't thrilled with it at the beginning (I felt it was almost too light or fragile to be good for much), I now think it'll pair nicely with my MAC Pro 9.5" gyuto, because the MAC is really pretty stiff (wayyyy stiffer than the Carbonext).  So for jobs where I want more finesse (like the mango steak salad I made this weekend), it's a great compliment to my gyuto.  I'm not sure how relevant that is to your gyuto choice though... but...

The thing I'm noticing about knives with the more I own, is that they're all a little different and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses.  To me, the knives I've owned, the differences stand out more than I would expect.  So you have to really know what you want.  The problem is, for us that haven't been in the kitchen knife game for 10 years+, it's not until you use a knife for a while that you get the appreciation for the differences.  So do you want a knife that is different feeling than your Fujiwara or do you want something similar, but higher end?  Do you want an every day workhorse that you'll use for 90% of your daily duties or do you want a unique, special knife.  For example, I wonder if the konosuke is a good daily workhorse, or if it's a bit thin for that?  I dunno, I've never used one.  But I suspect the hattori hd is pretty substantially thicker and stiffer.  That may or may not be what you'd want.  Do you care about stainless or semi-stainless?  I ended up not liking the semi-stainless finish on my carbonext (I have no idea how the konosuke compares to the carbonext in the finish department).  To me, it seemed as if the CN was constantly spotty, like a window with water spots on it.  So I'd scrub on it and... it wouldn't really come off.  I think it was like a very faint patina, which... many people want on that type of knife.  To me it was distracting, it looked like it needed to be cleaned (but man was that CN a good cutter).  That said... I'd love to have one of those really rustic takeda's... there just so expensive.

Anyways, do you want a workhorse?  Do you want something different than your fujiwara?  If so, different how (lighter, stiffer, thinner, taller, flatter profile or more belly, etc...).  Do you want a japanese or western handle?  Stainless or semi-stainless? 

P.S.  On my knives that are damascus, I get no feeling of "damped".  Not saying that it's a fake claim, matter of fact I don't doubt that people can feel it.  But I get no condem type feeling from a damascus or san-mai blade.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Phaedrus

I think your going to have to let us know what you think of that Nubatama since you now have the curiosity part of my brain working overtime lol,

Maybe because I am far from over VG10 at this time (will that change with using the Konosuke? I wouldnt mind if it did) and am still a bit impressed with the steels performance over the "moly" knives I own or have owned or possibly just due to appearance alone I still find myself attracted to the Hattori HD.

Even though I did go with the Konosuke already (can not wait to get my hands on it BTW) it was more about the analytical part of my brain taking over and all the countless reviews and comments so strongly praising it's feel, quality, and performance.

I understand your "entry level knives" comment, but being all my current knives are truly entry level that comment really gets me thinking, but also it implies there are other choices that are superior and this is where I had been having a problem trying to understand or get a feel for what difference is really all about. I mean if my current Tojiro and Fujiwara are considered entry level (very affordable, and very pleased with them especially when you consider their cost etc) and most consider the Hattori to be at a higher level, and those like yourself who have had the opportunity to experience other knives that make the Hattori seem entry level etc is just a whole lot to try to understand when I am still very impressed with just how insanely superior my current entry level knives are compared to my previous Pro S.

Just what is to be expected? Where does it end? how much better can it get etc, etc, etc.

Racine

I hear you on the not so bold Kanji etc, and honestly am a little unhappy that even the Konosuke HD uses a similar print or screen as my inexpensive knives   and really wish it was stamped or something more permanent. But this all is mostly appearance based etc and I am trying to pay less attention or give less value to that part of things. I guess if looks manage to push higher on the scale of things I could always polish the steel to a mirror etc but that is a real PITA.

I think you comment on learning the strengths and weakness of various brands and knowing what you want is a good one as it is part of my issue.

As an example I can fully understand and compare the differences between the various knives I own and have owned etc, and can also have an idea of what I would like different as well, BUT knowing what you may want from your knife and knowing which one you actually want is not exactly the same, and also where I get myself into too much thought too lol.

It is similar to how I do like how Tojiro DP takes and holds it's edge, and am happy with the performance as well (I mostly use the petty which due to being my thinnest knife seems to get the sharpest) but also prefer the feel of the Fujiwara FKM (comparing it to other Tojiro gyuto I have used, and even the santoku I own) and much as I want to improve on the steel and performance of the FKM I am just not sure how to put that into just which knife would do that etc. So I guess  would most likely prefer a slightly thinner, and flatter profile that will hold a sharper edge longer. Doesn't need to be a complete workhorse as I don't need to put it through 12hr shifts or anything, but it can't be no willy nilly sissy either 

Now Wag had some comments on another thread about the Konosuke that though I teased him a bit did hit on some good points relating to technique and profile. I think this plays into things here also because I have found that part of the reason my results and speed have improved since moving into J knives in general is partly due to the knives themselves a similar or even larger part of it is from changes or improvements in technique.

I think it was around the end of last winter where I had put in a serious effort to be more aware of my cuts and methods and started employing more glide and guillotine in some sort of natural change that I found worked so well with the Fuji it was obvious. Not that I do not chop or use other styles (how to mince without a lil rock n roll etc) but smooth like push cuts have completely taken over much of the others, and it seems to work really well.

So to answer the question about what am I looking for or to do. Yes I am looking to improve on the Fujiwara, and yes something different, but not so much different as improvement. I would like to improve on the steel, the feel, and performance. Not that there is anything "wrong" with it, but just that with all the talk I have heard and even seen in various vids about all this and that superior this and that and seeing products costing 3, 4, 5 and even 50 times as much I am drawn to finding out just what all that difference really is.

It is sort of like when you see every newbie directed to the same 4 or 5 knives as the popular recommendations, but if you are the newbie just how to put a value on all these different products when you do not have the experience with the products to even understand what your comparing?

I remember when I first get started with this all last year, how nearly mystical it all sounded, and how overwhelming all the information was. In hind sight I am glad I was working with a small budget as it allowed to get my feet wet before jumping in. Now that I have a base to compare with and some very different low cost knives that I am still very impressed with it is just time to move up to the next step in the progression so I can experience the difference and be able to compare if the next step is as large an improvement as the previous one (really hope so, but can not think things can continue to progress like moving from Henckels to Tojiro etc).

I know this is getting a bit long, and hope I did not lose everyone already, but another part of this is about experimenting with carbon or semi stainless. The only non stainless I have is a old hunting knife (puma white hunter) and though an odd shape the steel is a pleasure to sharpen, and even with what seems like a totally blunt angle the thing gets silly sharp. So I really wanted to get a feel for non stainless, but really do not think I wanted a full carbon for what may become my main knife. So the Konosuke seems that it may fit what I am looking to do, and much as I do prefer the look of the Hattori (and may end up with a longer petty or slicer of some sorts from them in the future) I decided to go with the Konosuke, and only hope I made the right choice.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Racine, if you lust for a Takeda but don't want to spend the cash, try a Moritaka.  They're pretty similar, and several guys that have both have told me that while they like the Takeda a little better they're not enough better to justify the extra money.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

To the extent that there is any real difference between high-performance knives, the difference between the Konosuke carbons and semi-stainless knives and the Hattori
Damascus is light years.  The Hattori is a suminagashi, home-kitchen queen, a Konosuke is a laser, and there's not much real comparison.

However, you really need to decide on what type of knife you want rather than willy-nilly picking a particular line from a particular manufacturer.  If looks are a real priority, that's fine.  When it comes down to it you can cut onions just about as well with a really good looking knife as with one which is less visually appealing.  Once you've got your priorities straight, you can narrow down the field to a few lines which make the most sense for you.  

If you're looking for a yo or wa laser, the Konosuke has plenty of competition, but not with the Hattori.  If you're looking for a suminagashi yo-gyuto with a VG-10 core, Hattori seems to be one of very few manufacturers who got the VG-10 part right; but again, there are others in the general field.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Takeda/Moritaka type knife -- too flat, too san-mai, too kurouchi -- but that's me.

If the goal is lifting some of the onus from prep, and/or having fun with knives, my general sense is that most people would do "best" with a thin but not quite laser, single-steel, high quality, non-VG10.  But, at the end of the day, "best" isn't that much better than "extremely good" and the difference between them isn't nearly as important as how well you sharpen. 

Everything depends on sharpening.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

BDL appreciate the no nonsense response as always.

Really does help to put things in perspective etc.

The more I think about this the more confident I am with my decision as everything I had wanted performance wise is addressed by the konosuke and the the potential alternates were either imitating it like the carbonext or full on carbons (aogami or white or blue etc) and also much more expensive and out of budget. Have to remember that though a bit higher than last years most of my budget is gone on one knife where last year it was enough for several etc.

I know I will experiment with other types in the future bit really am expecting the laser aspect and better or different steel to help me bring my sharpening to a new level. That's the plan at least lol.

Will know more next week as officially it is a x mas present.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

First I have to be honest that it seems I am posting some info here and also a bit in the first impression thread so sorry for any confusion etc.

I managed to get some measurements so here they are.

Thk at heel 2.3mm at 1" fr heel 2.30mm at mid of blade 2.20mm. At 1" fr tip 1.30mm at 1/4" fr tip 0.39mm 
Blade height. at heel49mm at mid 42mm at1/4" fr tip 21mm
Thick half way from edge to spine. Heel1.31mm. 1" towards tip1.22mm. Mid 1.98mm 1"fr tip.80mm tip 0.38mm

The measurements are not 100% exact but taken with a dial caliper and converted to mm.

I am still a little confused or well maybe curious is a better word by the similar profile and even some of the measurements compared to the Fujiwara FKM.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)




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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Racine
> 
> I hear you on the not so bold Kanji etc, and honestly am a little unhappy that even the Konosuke HD uses a similar print or screen as my inexpensive knives  and really wish it was stamped or something more permanent. But this all is mostly appearance based etc and I am trying to pay less attention or give less value to that part of things. I guess if looks manage to push higher on the scale of things I could always polish the steel to a mirror etc but that is a real PITA.


A correction is in order as I was somehow mislead to believe the Kanji was printed or screened etc, and that is absolutely not he case with the HD I had received.

It is stamped and very well done at that.

The whole idea of polishing remains another subject /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Does anyone have any input on the dimensions or comparisons with the wa handle version?


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

LennyD said:


> Does anyone have any input on the dimensions or comparisons with the wa handle version?


 Compare yours to these measurements: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohdwa24.html


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

racineboxer said:


> Compare yours to these measurements: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohdwa24.html


I did compare with the info on the CKTG site and was really looking to get more info (say like blade height further down the blade or thickness halfway between the spine and edge etc)

There is an obvious small difference in thickness, and I am assuming the profile is mostly the same.

I guess my question is since the thickness of the HD is really close to that of the FKM and where it really starts to thin out is further down the blade towards the edge etc just how different is the WA handled version that is obviously thinner at the top of the spine down the entire blade?

Is it even thinner than the yo version in the rest of the blade as well, or is it just that the yo gets thicker at the top.

Also if the wa is thinner in all areas how to compare the flex of the knife? The yo is not nearly as "flippy" as I was expecting from various reviews and not all that much more than the Fujiwara FKM is either. Then again it is also not all that thinner than the FKM.

I am confident just by initial inspection and without even cutting or sharpening this blade that I will most likely be very happy with it's performance (I can not wait to get to the point of making that distinction) but I want to be sure that I am not "missing the boat" by getting the thicker yo handled one, and that I may find it too comparable to the much less expensive Fujiwara.

Remember a big part of this upgrade for me was to be able to compare the entry level knives I purchased last year to the the higher end performers. I think I picked the right one, and really just need to get moving on making a final decision if I am going to stick with the yo, or return it for a wa, and if so weather to go with the std or ebony handle.

Any help is very appreciated as I really want to get into using this thing lol.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Well thanks to all for your input etc.

I had decided to just go with the original choice I had made before things started selling out of stock etc. and there should be a 240 wa here next week if all goes well.


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

It'll be interesting to hear if you think the wa and yo handled knives are in fact the same knife, just with different handles. 

I'm eyeballing a new knife purchase and a wa gyuto, perhaps one like the konosuke, is near the top of my list.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

racineboxer said:


> It'll be interesting to hear if you think the wa and yo handled knives are in fact the same knife, just with different handles.
> 
> I'm eyeballing a new knife purchase and a wa gyuto, perhaps one like the konosuke, is near the top of my list.


From everything I have seen I am expecting they are not, but since I have all the measurements on the YO version I will certainly measure the WA and post up my findings.

Also for the administrator here can you look into the problem with the site working with mobile devices running Symbian OS? It just doesnt seem to be compatible, and is weird since it works so good on android.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

They can't be exactly the same, since the yo has a machi, while the wa has a full tang.  However, Jon Broida said -- or at least implied -- that they're very, very similar otherwise.

I don't think I'd go so far to say as a "laser is a laser is a laser," but lasers have far more in common with one another than with other, merely thin knives.  My guess is that the Konosuke wa and yo gyuto profiles are much the same.  Again, it would be nice to get some input from Jon.  

FWIW, don't expect two knives as "handmade" as a Konosuke to ever be exactly the same.  

BDL


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## racineboxer (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeah, they're obviously not the same as far as the heel/machi/choil end but if there are notable differences in the middle, tip, behind the cutting edge, etc... I would find that interesting. 


LennyD said:


> From everything I have seen I am expecting they are not, but since I have all the measurements on the YO version I will certainly measure the WA and post up my findings.
> 
> Also for the administrator here can you look into the problem with the site working with mobile devices running Symbian OS? It just doesnt seem to be compatible, and is weird since it works so good on android.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Why speculate?  Why not just call Mark or Jon and ask?

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> Why speculate? Why not just call Mark or Jon and ask?
> 
> BDL


Now that would seem to make sense wouldn't it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif

But honestly I am sort of looking forward a couple of things with this knife, and comparing the dimensions to the western handled one is one of those things though far from the most important. I am really looking forward to seeing how the HD performs, and am very curious to see how I find sharpening it (I mean after hearing so many great things about this one it should be a great positive, but also I have seemed to have developed some high expectations as well.)

I know the quote was not exactly to me, but the idea of seeing for yourself holds a bit of weight as well.

Then again if no one else makes the inquiry I may just call them both (may be a little weird with Jon though as i did not buy it from him, but hey why not right).


> FWIW, don't expect two knives as "handmade" as a Konosuke to ever be exactly the same.


Since you mention this I have two thoughts or maybe questions really as to just how "handmade" are they, and if there is any info on just how different one can expect them to be?

Even though I may have made a bit of an error in my original decision on the Corian handle (was under the gun for time, and remaining stock was an issue too) but with the conditions I thought it might have been different enough etc, but the combination of the extra weight (it was a whole lot more heavier on the handle end than even my current Fujiwara FKM) and my really wanting to try or add a wa handled knife to my "set" plus the thicker measurements I found really made my decision to swap it out pretty easy. Even though I do not have the same issues with weight that someone who is putting in 14hr shifts may it just seemed the right decision.

Anyhow I was expecting the dimensions to be different at least in the blade thickness at the spine. This is based on what I have read, but also on the spec's on the product page at CKTG. I hope your not saying that I may actually be able to receive one that is not as thin as listed, and maybe even thicker than the one I returned as that would somehow be a let down lol/


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

The replacement is ln it's way but it isn't exactly what I was expecting.

Since the HD 240 WA gyuto ebony handle was out of stock Mark recommended the new flatter profile one that was in stock.

Any thoughts on this? Better, worse or just different etc?

I have to be honest I am not sure on this as my style has been evolving and is very different since finding my way to j knives than before. By that I mean much less rock and roll and been finding the glide and guillotine more and more comfortable. Sure there is still time I chop or make use of what belly there is in my Fujiwara gyuto but I understand there is still enough belly to do this just not as much.

Appreciate any thoughts on this and if I should expect to be changing anything to match or work better with this profile.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

The profile issue is interesting.  We have lots of talk about "ideal" profiles, good-but-not-great, etc.  Which comes down to what you have learned and what you prefer to do. To some extent I've adopted prejudices from BDL's posts, which fit my already-had-a-Sab *wanting* that profile to be close to ideal.... that said, I'd prefer the "old" Kono profile.  But I do think the "funayuki" profile looks really good, aesthetically. And my skill level isn't so grand, or habits established, that I'd be afraid of adjusting to it. But that's if it were a gift, or I otherwise didn't have much choice.

I'd take more time and get the old one -- i.e., wait for it to get re-stocked, or order it.  But that isn't at all necessarily what you should do.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wagstaff said:


> The profile issue is interesting. We have lots of talk about "ideal" profiles, good-but-not-great, etc. Which comes down to what you have learned and what you prefer to do. To some extent I've adopted prejudices from BDL's posts, which fit my already-had-a-Sab *wanting* that profile to be close to ideal.... that said, I'd prefer the "old" Kono profile. But I do think the "funayuki" profile looks really good, aesthetically. And my skill level isn't so grand, or habits established, that I'd be afraid of adjusting to it. But that's if it were a gift, or I otherwise didn't have much choice.
> 
> I'd take more time and get the old one -- i.e., wait for it to get re-stocked, or order it. But that isn't at all necessarily what you should do.


Wag I am not sure I am the right one to get into the "best profile" discussion too much and most of my posts in those have been questions etc.

Judging by the pic online it looks to still have enough curve or belly to be useful to rock and also not so flat that it should feel like a santoku or nakiri etc but hey its a pic and won't know what I think till I get it.

I hope I did not make a mistake as I really don't want to do the swap out thing again almost as much as not wanting to be stuck with an expensive knife I do not like.

One last thought on profile is that I figure just like I am very used to and happy with the Fujiwara FKM over the different Henckels and Wustofs I had used previously for years I could like the even flatter profile but since it will likely be the flatest chefs I have used i just hope its not too flat.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Well, that is the question -- but I'll tell you that whether it is supposed to be a copy of the Masamoto KS (which one person here said) or the Murray Carter funayuki (which I think, based in part on CKTG's naming of knives).... those are lots and lots of people's ideas of "perfect" profiles, at least.  I doubt you'll be disappointed.

I also understand not being the "right person" to get into the idea of "perfect profiles". I've largely adopted prejudices from others, or from my own Sab predating any awareness of Japanese knives.  But maybe I need to re-read your penultimate (so far) post, because isn't the question of which profile is better, at least, the whole point?


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## mano (Dec 16, 2010)

I didn't read all the prior posts, but it so happens that I own and use both the Hattori HD and Kono HD.  As indicated above one is a laser and the other isn't; that's why I have them.  The Kono is my go-to gyuto and the Hattori (which I bought for a song, essentially brand new) is my back-up and is used if I need something more stalwart.  

Both take and hold a very good edge (I've read about VG10 being a PITA in this regard but the Hattori is easy to sharpen) and I like that both profiles have the right amount of belly, for me at least.  

The OP probably bought their gyuto already, but IMO, the Carbonext, which I owned for a year and gifted away, is the best of both worlds.  It's truly a great knife, and a bargain to boot.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wagstaff said:


> Well, that is the question -- but I'll tell you that whether it is supposed to be a copy of the Masamoto KS (which one person here said) or the Murray Carter funayuki (which I think, based in part on CKTG's naming of knives).... those are lots and lots of people's ideas of "perfect" profiles, at least. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
> 
> I also understand not being the "right person" to get into the idea of "perfect profiles". I've largely adopted prejudices from others, or from my own Sab predating any awareness of Japanese knives. But maybe I need to re-read your penultimate (so far) post, because isn't the question of which profile is better, at least, the whole point?


Guess I could just answer a simple "yes" to all of that, especially about the new twist being the profiles between the two HD's

I really hope not to be disappointed (do not expect to etc) and since making the decision to go with the new design have been thinking about how it could be better, and also allow comparison to the std (which the profile was close to the Fujiwara) and also will most likely be another step in my evolution in J knives.

Unlike you I had not had any experience with anything beyond the standard western designs before finding my way to all of this (j knives etc) and it was thankfully a change that seemed more natural and I did forget about the old designs and warmed up to the French/Japanese profile quickly. Since I now do prefer this design I can only expect that streamlining it or reducing the belly even more should work out well, but I still do hold onto a few old habits (mostly using a little pump action for mincing etc) and do not want a santoku like profile either.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

mano said:


> I didn't read all the prior posts, but it so happens that I own and use both the Hattori HD and Kono HD. As indicated above one is a laser and the other isn't; that's why I have them. The Kono is my go-to gyuto and the Hattori (which I bought for a song, essentially brand new) is my back-up and is used if I need something more stalwart.
> 
> Both take and hold a very good edge (I've read about VG10 being a PITA in this regard but the Hattori is easy to sharpen) and I like that both profiles have the right amount of belly, for me at least.
> 
> The OP probably bought their gyuto already, but IMO, the Carbonext, which I owned for a year and gifted away, is the best of both worlds. It's truly a great knife, and a bargain to boot.


I almost "bit" at the CN due to cost, but from what I have read comparing it with the HD I am confident I make a solid decision.

Lets hope I still feel that way in another few months after getting some time in with it, and on the stones etc.

Far as sharpening VG10 goes I never really did find the problems others report, and my VG10 blades are Tojiro DP and from everything I have read not comparable to the Hattori HD. Maybe it is because I spent so much time in the past fighting my Henckels as I was trying to take them to the max in respect to angle sharpened to etc, and was chasing burrs around like a game of hide and go seek.

Actually was pretty impressed with the steel, and all the reports on how far superior the Konosuke HD steel is to the VG10 has my brain doing back flips in anticipation /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Well it has arrived and though I will follow up with more info and measurements soon I have to say from initial thoughts its a keeper 

Have not had a chance to use it yet but the profile seems excellent and the weight or lack there of is amazing.

This is my first wa handled and also laser so I had pretty high expectations, and I think this one will fill those expectations better than the Corian handled one could have.

We won't be able to know know the difference in measurements until I find time to take some,but this one feels thinner and more like I expected a laser too,

Will follow up up soon as I have some more feedback.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

In follow up I have to add that this knife really does grow on you.

The more I use it the more I finding I enjoy using it.

I did a fast sharpening on it up to 6K and that really helped to improve ease of cutting, but I did rush it, and there is still room for improvement. Also can anyone advise if this one would benefit from going beyond 6K, or if this should be sufficient for the most part?

I can not find my measurements so will still have to get them posted (actually thought i did already, but must have been in a diff thread) but for the most part the thickness was very similar to the yo handle, and the two areas that I found the most change was the length (about 7/16 shorter) and the thickness behind the edge was slightly thinner. Most all the others were within .001-.003 so no real change.

The ever so slightly flatter profile has not proven to be a problem, and I am really starting to like it. Also along with the serious reduction in weight the change in profile is also helping to distinguish it from the much less expensive Fujiwara FKM that I have (and really like also).

On that note I am considering changing the edge to be more asymmetrical as it has proved to work well with the Fujiwara, and with the tougher steel of the Konosuke I was thinking the thinning would be less of an issue, but then again was also thinking it may be better to just reduce my sharpening angle some and let the "laser" shine based on it being so thin. Any thoughts on this?????

I am including a pic below to show her off  (sorry for the grainy pic but I can not seem to find my camera and had to use my droid, but that should do better too so who knows).


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Looks good, Lenny. Enjoy that beauty!


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## tarn (Mar 3, 2012)

Lenny,

Now that you've had the Konosuke HD wa-gyuto 240mm "new shape" for a while, any more impressions?

I ask because I'm trying to decide between the standard and the "new" shape for that 240mm gyuto and would really like to hear feedback from actual users.

Mostly, is it too flat to rock for cutting? Is the tip so low that you can't really rock it much without catching the tip?

For comparison, I have a 240mm Yoshikane wa-gyuto which I really like, but it is quite thick for a Japanese knife - 3.2mm close to the base. The shape works pretty well for me, though. It's got a very long almost (but not quite) flat section, then flares up to a somewhat low tip. I use it for both push cutting and rocking. Its point is maybe a hair lower than I would really like. Here's a link so you can see the picture of it: http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85676

I would not want a flatter knife, or a knife with a lower point than that Yoshikane. Same (or slightly less) flat, and a slightly higher point would be perfect.

Could you tell me how the shape of your "new shape" Konosuke gyuto compare to the Yoshikane and how it's been working for you?

Thanks!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tarn thanks for reminding me I wanted to follow up on the thread. Been busy lately and just have not found my way here.

To address your question I believe the STD profile may be better suited to what you describe being most important (rocking etc) but also want to be clear the "new" or flatter profile can rock cut also, but I do not believe as efficiently as the STD, and if that is your main interest or need I think the STDunder is the way to go.

I have to be honest that the difference in profile between the two I have had was not nearly as much as the difference between the weight and feel of the yo corian to the wa. Sure you can notice there is a different profile and it is definitely flatter, but it achieves the flatter with a thinner approach to the tip than what was in your link (that one looked to have a profile that was closer to a santoku than the HD "new" etc)

Also note that one of the reasons I have not added any new comments is that I am seriously trying to get more comparison time under my belt. Now I do not have the STD around to compare etc, but I have been trying to cut the same things with both the HD and the FKM and just have not had the opportunity to have enough work at once to do it fairly.

This will kind of allow a comparison of the profiles as the FKM is not much different in profile at the edge than the STD, but I am also trying to gain enough time and knowledge in the comparison to judge a $90 knife against a $270 one. 

Still I can not ignore the difference that is very real in how they rock. I actually found myself using a very quick chopping cut to mince onion last week with the HD. It was actually very comfortable and though not how I had learned to mince as that was all rock and roll etc lol.

Like I said earlier I need more time etc, but from your info I am not seeing any reason to spend a good amount more for the flatter profile, and with rock cutting being of major importance it seems even less a value.

Remember I went this route with the flatter profile based more on stock than preference, and though I must offer kind words to Mark for helping to close the gap in price a little since I was really looking for the less expensive STD one I am also understanding that there really is not anything special about one over the other that would cause a higher cost to manufacture and the added cost is more about marketing, and being exclusive or special etc.

Guess I could have condensed it to just why spend more if you don't need too lol.

Let me know if you have any other questions as I expect it will be a few weeks at least before I am ready to do a follow up, comparison or review etc.


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## tarn (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks for the info.  I've ordered their standard profile and will see how it goes.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Be sure to let us know your thoughts once you get it!

Hope you like the HD as much as I do.


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## tarn (Mar 3, 2012)

Got the Konosuke HD Gyuto 240mm (regular shape, not new shape) Saturday.

I was assuming I would need to run through a sharpening session with it before use (as I had to with the petty) but it was quite sharp out of the box. Had some long marks along the blade, so perhaps it was hand sharpened along the way somewhere. I'm not one who cares about marks on the blade, and these won't be noticeable once I use it a bit anyway. Don't know what the actual cutting bevel is.

Just a few initial thoughts. I'll try to post a more full opinion once I've used it for a month or so.

The shape / geometry seems just about right for my combination of rocking and push cutting. It's got a little more belly to it then my pretty flat Yoshikane, but I don't think I'd want it flatter -- the shape seems very good for all purpose work.

Handle has a nice length, is slightly narrow but seems to work fine for my grip. Ho wood handle is a larger diameter than the Konosuke petty ebony handle. The ferrule and wood aren't exactly flush, but I wasn't expecting them to be. 

I LOVE the weight of it! My abused wrists appreciate it. A little blade heavy, as expected, but not much with this blade! I kind of wish it had the heavier ebony handle for a slightly more balanced feel, but in use it hasn't seemed to matter. The thin blade does make me a little nervous about what not to cut with it -- I guess that will be learned with experience (and swearing).

If anyone else had advice on what not to cut with this (after I take it to my planned 10* relief bevel, 13* cutting bevel) I would love to hear it.


So, actual use (coming from a home cook, so feel free to laugh):

Dicing potatoes made me giggle. Blade just glides right through.

Cutting apple wedges was easy. Cuts were even easier than with the Konosuke petty. Probably a weight or blade stiffness difference since it couldn't be my perfect (not!) sharpening job. Heh.

Onion diced easily, but not spectacularly. The cuts near the end of the blade were a little more work (but still easy). Need to cut more onions to see if this is typical. Probably the end of the blade just needs some sharpening work, or I'm wiggling in the cut.

Jicama into medium dice worked pretty well. Cutting the initial planks had some wedging (as expected with a big jicama) but worked fine without cracking it, and everything after that was very smooth. My Wustoff cracked the other jicama I cut up.

Lemons, Limes, Oranges, celery all easy to work with.

Carrots cut into rounds easily. I did some quick quartering and juliene of one to test and it was better than any of my other knives. Haven't tried any really large diameter carrots though.

I admit I did NOT try the new knife on the Kabocha squash that got roasted and made into a nice soup. Back to the big $15 cleaver for that.


So far I'm pretty impressed. Once I take the time to do my own sharpening and get some more use of this under my belt I'll post about it. Again, if anybody (BDL? Lenny?) has recommendations on what not to cut with this blade, I'd love to hear them rather than learn the hard way.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The factory bevel is usually convex and not terribly acute; at least my Konosukes came that way.

After fooling around with a bunch of angles, symmetries and finishes, I've come to the conclusion that unless you go very extreme and compromise durability a great deal, that somewhere in the 12* to 15* range is fine; 3:2 asymmetry works well; and a double bevel (such as your proposed 13/10) is redundant; and whenever truing is necessary, stropping on paper rather than steeling will allow you to hold a higher polish longer.

Also, I think 13/10 is a very difficult angle to sharpen -- probably impossible without using a very accurate gag, such as an EP with an angle finder and collet stop -- and the angles are too close to make much difference. Besides the grind angles on a laser are so acute, you really don't need to thin.

You can cut just about anything -- including all but the very toughest squash -- other than bone. The trick is keeping the blade angle to square to the cut. If you're under a lot of time pressure and don't have really good knife skills (for instance a line cook without a lot of knife training), that's going to make trouble. On the other hand, if you're a home cook who doesn't get a lot of "hurry up" screaming, you can take your time. If the knife binds, just start over and focus on keeping the blade straight along all three axes.

Remember that a very soft grip is your best friend.

BDL


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## tarn (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks for the info!

I do have the EdgePro, so can get the 10* relief bevel and 13* primary bevel (keeping it symmetric) but you're saying it wouldn't give much benefit.

My primary reason for doing the different relief and primary bevels was to keep the primary bevel very small so I can resharpen quickly (with the jig) when needed.  This is what I do with most of my woodworking tools (usually freehand).  Maybe something more like 10*/15*  or 12*/15* if the 10* relief would make the edge too weak?

Really glad to hear it on the cutting just about anything!  I'm pretty careful not to force the tool.  I do get the yelling, but it's my kids with "we're hunger - when's dinner!" instead of the boss.

I was planning on avoiding bones but it's good that most squash will work.  (Not that kabocha though -- took a cleaver and a mallet.)  Have you used yours on pineapple?  That's a common one for me here.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes to pineapple.  It's asking a lot from your technique and from the knife itself, so it's not my first choice.  That would be my 10" Forschner Cimiter. 

A double bevel on my Konosuke wa-gyuto didn't do anything positive for me, but it's easy enough to test for yourself.  Also, if you're bevel angles are less than 5* apart from one another, don't bother.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Just a bit of reinforcement to the above as I have to agree that the 5° difference.for dbl bevel makes sense and also that I saw no reason to put one on the Konosuke as the thin blade just doesn't seem to need it.

I did experiment with a slightly higher angle (approx 15-17°) but did not like how that felt and went a bit lower and it seemed better (approx 12-13°), but may have to adjust this as last sharpening I made the edge asymmetric to around 70/30. Have only used it once this way but it felt much sharper and better matched to a lighter grip, but will have to see how well it holds up.

Have to admit the more I sharpen this knife and change the edge the more I am enjoying it 

I have to see how much of this can be contributed to the angle, changes from additional sharpening, and from the more asymmetric edge, but so far in my very undemanding use ( no real rush normally ) it seems to be all about the combination.


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## tarn (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks for the info.  Please let us all know how it goes with the 12-13° bevels.


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