# Which carbon steel for kitchen knife?



## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

I want to purchase a carbon steel kitchen knife but I am not sure which alloy to chose. From what i read Aogami Blue Super (AS) seems to be best of its kind. Also CPM M4 seems to be highly valued but I am not sure if there are any Kitchen knives made out of it, especially Japanese ones.

Also I am considering ZDP-189, but form what I understand it's not a Carbon steel per se, but very close.

The reason I want to purchase a Carbon steel knife, is because I do not have one, and I would like to try *very good* carbon knife

Which one would you recommend guys, any other contenders?


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

Best is a tough term... Aogami super will have the best edge retention an corrosion resistance of the Japanese carbon steels, but it won't get as sharp as others, will be more difficult to sharpen, and will be more brittle.

Zdp189 is most assuredly a stainless steel.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I really like my old Sabatiers from the 70's and 80's.


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

kokopuffs said:


> I really like my old Sabatiers from the 70's and 80's.


I do not think this is an option for me 


JBroida said:


> Best is a tough term... Aogami super will have the best edge retention an corrosion resistance of the Japanese carbon steels, but it won't get as sharp as others, will be more difficult to sharpen, and will be more brittle.
> 
> Zdp189 is most assuredly a stainless steel.


Which Carbon steel do you recommend then? I've read that AS can get quite sharp, similar to other Aogami (Blues and whites).


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

it depends on what you are looking for... if you want edge retention, i like blue #1, if you want ease of sharpening, i say white #2, and if you want ease of sharpening and awesome edge taking ability with decent edge retention i say white #1, but it can also be a bit more brittle depending on how it was heat treated.  Personally, i'm not a bit fan of blue super in kitchens.... i prefer other steels.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There's "carbon steel" and there's "carbon steel." By definition steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. So, in one sense, all steel is "carbon steel." Some steels are "high carbon." "High carbon" is a term of art which means that the alloy in question has at least 0.50% carbon by weight -- except in the EU where anything above 0.45% is "high carbon."

Any steel alloy which contains at least 13% chromium is referred to as stainless. Knives with between 5% and 12% chromium are referred to as semi-stainless or stain-resistant. Materials and knife guys call any alloy made up of 4% or less chromium "carbon."

So far, the other guys responding to your questions have all been talking about carbon (i.e., not stainless) knives, because they think that's what you're asking about.

Unless you're an _extremely good_ sharpener, almost all of the high quality high carbons and tool steels, and a few of the better stainless alloys work about equally well. Edge quality tends to be far more dependent on edge geometry, maintenance routines, use, and sharpening skills than on the identity of any particular alloy.

ZDP-189 is a metallurgical powder (aka PM), with 3% carbon and 20% chromium. Because of its chromium content, it's not only extremely stainless but is not referred to as a "carbon" alloy. It's not referred to as "stainless" either, because PM conveys so much more information.

As a class, the metallurgical powders (aka PMs) are something of an exception to the practical rules of "most good steels tend to be very much alike." Compared to other knife alloys, the powders tend to be extremely strong (another materials term) and are almost always hardened to a very high degree. That means that sharpening is usually somewhat awkward, but that edge holding is usually extremely good (they can also be very chippy).

People new to high-performance knife universe are often very attracted to PMs because they associated with very hardness. But what the noob doesn't know is that hardness numbers can be more distraction than vital knowledge. As a property, very high hardness is almost always double edged in practice for the reasons already mentioned: good wear resistance; difficult and unpleasant to sharpen; stay in true, difficult to true when they do ding; chippy; etc.

Several of the best metallurgical powders are extremely expensive, including ZDP-189 and Cowry X; however the current high-performance PM darling, Bohler 390, is more reasonable. CPM-154 is another high-performance, high-vale powder. SG-2 is well priced, but you want to be careful as SG-2 knives are often prone to chipping.

If you're looking for a knife made from ZDP-189, you're looking to spend _a lot_ of money to replace occasional sharpening with very occasional sharpening. To my mind, not a good tradeoff -- but opinions differ.

By and large, guys who make a big deal about alloys are knife collectors and not cooks. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're all about the cutting consider -- as long as the knife is made from any one of many good alloys -- other things should be higher priorities.

Unless you're throwing a LOT of money at the "what knife?" problem, there are going to be some trade-offs. And even then, not only is there no single best knife for everyone, there's probably no single best knife for you. The thing to do is to figure out what things you want most, and using those bases limit the range of possibilities to a group in which the only choices are good ones. After that, throw darts.

If you prefer "single steel" to san-mai, your choices become limited. Without cladding, many of the prestige alloys fail too often during the heat treatment, raising keep costs too high for their use as single-steel knives.

There are many excellent knives made with Aogami Super. But, like Jon, I don't like them. In my case it has more to do with other things than with AS itself.

The big Sabatier makers importing into the US -- K-Sab, Mexeur et Cie, and Thiers-Issard -- use the same carbon steel now that they did in the "seventies and eighties." If you want a knife of the sort that kokopuffs loves (I love them as well), they're easy to buy. Older Sabatier production is also readily available NOS, and has its own, slightly different charms (love those too).

One of the two chef's knives I use the most is a 51200 (high performance carbon) wa-gyuto (Japanese handled chef knife) with a Sabatier profile. The other one is a "laser" (extremely light and thin" wa-gyuto made from some type of semi-stainless. They are very different from one another; but the distinctions in their characters are not based in their respective alloys.

BDL


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

JBroida said:


> it depends on what you are looking for... if you want edge retention, i like blue #1, if you want ease of sharpening, i say white #2, and if you want ease of sharpening and awesome edge taking ability with decent edge retention i say white #1, but it can also be a bit more brittle depending on how it was heat treated. Personally, i'm not a bit fan of blue super in kitchens.... i prefer other steels.


Are you telling that blue #1 has better edge retention then super blue?


> There's "carbon steel" and there's "carbon steel." By definition steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. So, in one sense, all steel is "carbon steel." Some steels are "high carbon." "High carbon" is a term of art which means that the alloy in question has at least 0.50% carbon by weight -- except in the EU where anything above 0.45% is "high carbon."
> 
> Any steel alloy which contains at least 13% chromium is referred to as stainless. Knives with between 5% and 12% chromium are referred to as semi-stainless or stain-resistant. Materials and knife guys call any alloy made up of 4% or less chromium "carbon."
> 
> So far, the other guys responding to your questions have all been talking about carbon (i.e., not stainless) knives, because they think that's what you're asking about.


That's exactlly what I am looking for. Carbon steel, the one that rusts with ease 


> ZDP-189 is a metallurgical powder (aka PM), with 3% carbon and 20% chromium. Because of its chromium content, it's not only extremely stainless but is not referred to as a "carbon" alloy. It's not referred to as "stainless" either, because PM conveys so much more information.


Good explanation, thanks fro that. I guess then ZDP is out of question at this moment in time. May be for the New Years holidays or something 


> By and large, guys who make a big deal about alloys are knife collectors and not cooks. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're all about the cutting consider -- as long as the knife is made from any one of many good alloys -- other things should be higher priorities.


Well that's a tricky one; I am a bit of both and none of each  I like to cook and I like knifes but none of them is my life. I just got that Japanese knife bug lately and I already got semi-stainless and stainless knifes. So the next one should be Carbon Steel, hence a question which alloy should I get because most likely I will stop there for a while.
Being in that situation I want the best deal for the buck.


> If you prefer "single steel" to san-mai, your choices become limited. Without cladding, many of the prestige alloys fail too often during the heat treatment, raising keep costs too high for their use as single-steel knives.


As all my other knifes are "single steel" I would not mind san-mai for a change so I have different experience.


> One of the two chef's knives I use the most is a 51200 (high performance carbon) wa-gyuto (Japanese handled chef knife) with a Sabatier profile.


Which one is that, may I ask?


> Unless you're an _extremely good_ sharpener, almost all of the high quality high carbons and tool steels, and a few of the better stainless alloys work about equally well. Edge quality tends to be far more dependent on edge geometry, maintenance routines, use, and sharpening skills than on the identity of any particular alloy.


I am not a good sharpener. Hence I think edge retention will be the priority #1, is not it?

At this point I am looking into Moritaka Kiritsuke or some Takeda in AS (Moritaka being a leader mostlly because of price). But again I am open for the suggestions I did not decide yet as my

experience with carbon steel is null.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> Which one is that, may I ask?


Richmond 51200 Ultimatum.


> I am not a good sharpener. Hence I think edge retention will be the priority #1, is not it?


No. Learning to sharpen better is priority #1. Just in terms of knife properties, for someone working on their sharpening skills, "edge taking" properties are more important than edge retention. 


> At this point I am looking into Moritaka Kiritsuke or some Takeda in AS (Moritaka being a leader mostlly because of price).


Both knives are fairly easy to sharpen. Takedas are better made. I don't like san-mai, kurouchi, or flat profiles, so I'm not the right guy to talk to about these knives except in the most general terms.

I'm not sure if there's anyone who posts at CT who has much experience with both -- although there are certainly a few who've had some with one or the other. You might want to go to the CKtG forum, the Kitchen Knife Forum (KKF), and give Mark Richmond at CKtG a call (CKtG sells both). You should also call Jon Broida (of JKI), who feels somewhat constrained about talking about specific brands online.

BDL


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

> No. Learning to sharpen better is priority #1. Just in terms of knife properties, for someone working on their sharpening skills, "edge taking" properties are more important than edge retention.


In progress 

From what I get from this thread is that it does not really matter which alloy to chose. I guess the wallet and looks will decide.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

i'm not saying that blue #1 has better edge retention than blue super, but it has very good edge retention and is much less chipping usually... edge retention doesnt mean much if your edge microchips all of the time


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

I was giving some thought about not going with AS steel necessarily  and so far I narrowed my choice to the three knifes

All of them are available local (no duties or overpriced shipments), and roughly in $200 range

1. Nakiri 165mm Masakage Mizu - San-mai in Blue #2 + Re-handle as the stock handle does no fit me

http://www.knifewear.com/knife-detail.asp?knife=19nakiri165&family=19

2. Nakiri 165mm Masakage Shimo - San-mai in White #2

http://www.knifewear.com/knife-detail.asp?knife=17nakiri165&family=17

3. Nakiri 165mm Moritaka Supreme - San-mai in AS

http://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritaka-Supreme-Nakiri-165mm-6.5-Aogami-Blue-Super-Carbon-Steel.html

Which one do you think is a better choice?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_Never mind. _


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

You are correct IceMan I did not tell I wanted a nakiri. The reason is simple, I was not sure what profile I was looking for as the main purpose was and is - is to buy a good quality carbon steel knife. Technically i had 4 options, nakiri, santoko, kiritsuke or small petty under 100mm. I still want the knife to be usable in my applications.
Hence couple days ago I decided that Nakiri will be the best fit and price wise they are looking not too bad.

As for your recommendation, it is very good priced, but I would prefer not to buy a Tojiro. For the price/buck purposes I have CCK store not to far away that I am planning to visit next time I visit my sister. For now I would prefer something of more quality/novelty


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_Whatever. _


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

> It now sounds like you just really want to buy a knife, and don't really have much of a clue about anything.


Pretty much, I do not have any practical knowledge on the issue.

I really appreciate your suggestion, I really do. I might consider it, but I do not think I will stick to it  Any opinions about the 3 knifes I've selected.....


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Knives are nice.


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

> K. _Again ... Kid ..._ I'm no kinda expert like _*Jon*_ or _*BDL*_. But I'm sure all three(3) are good enough knives.


May be they are may be not. I would like to have an insight of somebody who might know more abt them. That's why I am asking on the forum.


> I love nakiris, but they are limited-use knives. They do not get near the use of a gyuto or chef's knife unless you are relegated to vegetables, salads or cutting sammies in half. You can use either of those 2 to do those jobs too.


I already have a 240 semi stainless gyuto that I find quite comfortable and practical for everything I do.


> Wanting a new knife for wanting a new knife sake is absolutely jake with me, all good. I just can't afford it.


Yep, I love new toys, unfortunatelly I cant afford all toys I want either 


> Also ... _in my most humble and modest opinion_ ... a petty 100mm or smaller is a waste of money.


I tend to think the same way. The small paring knife I have barely have any use, hence I bought 150mm one - works for me.

Never the less, I feel some resentment coming from you man. I might be wrong, but well, I hope I did not offend you somehow :-/ Sorry if so.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_There you go. _


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

Dude, honestly, read the damn thread. You can go all over how cool you are using the knife as a tool etc etc, I am not looking for that. I opened this thread with a purpose, my own purpose. Your help, seriously, was Null. I tried to be polite but god damit you are annoying as a little bee. Thanks for nothing, well for spending some time on this I guess.

Also what's up with the bringing up JBorida and BDL name in every post of yours? I know they are knowledgeable, so I listened to their opinions and I will go with Shirogami #2 knife instead of AS, for now . Not to mention that I watched mostly all Joh's videos and dozen of others and it does not make me an expert in sharpening, so I keep my mouth shut in this area. You should follow that example, seriously.

Anyways have fun and smile.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW. DUDE. LOL. 

OK. For you, I wiped out every one of my posts. You don't have any clue, just money to spend. Buy whatever knife you want. It makes no difference at all. You won't understand any difference anyway.


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

I thought I am done with this, but I think I gonna post one more time.


> OK. For you, I wiped out every one of my posts.


No need for that, but whatever makes you happy.


> You don't have any clue, just money to spend. Buy whatever knife you want. It makes no difference at all. You won't understand any difference anyway.


It looks like it bothers you somehow. I hope not all chefs are so bitter.

P.S. I think I am done talking to you in this thread at least.

|

|

|

\/

Again, talking without knowing. I've spend countless hours (5+ hours a day) searching, reading, understanding, watching videos for last 30+ days. I know that it's not much compared to the "knife geeks" but believe me I've read more about knifes, alloys, profiles, uses, brands, differences, handles, constructions, sharpening etc, that I would ever thought I do in my life and the next one. I never thought I gonna be a better cook with a better knife, neither I want to. I just want a good knife in a carbon steel that I like and that can be useful at times! Deal with it. I believe it's hard for you to understand it for some reason, so you use the cheap rant about how clueless and oblivious am I. It's not like I am spending you money or something..... Sometimes it's easier to ask, hence I registered on this forum. Unfortunately, users with attitude of yours does not make me want to stay here.

\/


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There are far worse ways to spend money than on kitchen knives.  When I talk to people about buying "better" knives, one of the first things I do is try to separate considerations which are entirely practical from knife collecting; and then let the other guy tell me about how he wants to blend them.

The trick is recognizing that there's no particular ratio which will be right for everyone, and probably not a particular ratio for any given person which will go beyond a single knife.  I know I choose my knives for all sorts of screwy reasons, which has led to some disappointing purchases and to some surprisingly good results as well.    

Sounds like you've got quite a few interesting knives in your future, and good for you.  

BDL


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

Just to complete the thread I will post my buy 

I ended up buying Masakage Shimo 165mm Nakiri. It's san-mai with Shirogami #2 core and clad in Carbon. I really like the "damascus" pattern on the knife it looks pretty. Overall finish is very nice as well. Never the less I dislike that the spine, "machi" and the heel are not rounded. This might create some discomfort. The overall construction feels good though.

The blade is very thin by the primary bevel. I am not expert on the grinds, but it does not look like convex, but I might be mistaken.

The handle is Ho wood with Pakkawood bolster in octagonal shape. Surprisingly I liked the finish on the Ho wood. My previous Ho wood handle left a little bitter taste compared to Yew. Pakka wood bolster looks quite nice and sturdy. I have nothing bad to say about it; looks wise I like it as much as the water buffalo horn. As for the material, horn is still more appealing to me.

I did not have much time on my hands to go through extensive vegetable cutting, but I can tell that the knife is very reactive. After cutting an onion and 2 slices of lemon, first signs of patina arose.

Also it comes very very sharp out of the box. I did not sharpen it yet, and I do not think I will have to in a while, so nothing to say here. Overall I am content with the buy. Now, money saving begins for the next one 

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## harlock0083 (Feb 11, 2013)

Its san-mai and clad in carbon? I didn't know there were knives like that. Anyway, she's pretty! 

edit: Just check on cktg, I don't think its san-mai (atleast the description doesn't say it is.)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's san-mai. 

BDL


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

harlock0083 said:


> Its san-mai and clad in carbon? I didn't know there were knives like that. Anyway, she's pretty!
> 
> edit: Just check on cktg, I don't think its san-mai (atleast the description doesn't say it is.)


Yea, I know, it does not say it in the description but it is. I asked the seller and he confirmed. Also he said that most if not all of the carbon san-mai with Damascus patern are clad in carbon steel.

And thanks


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Cool knife, dude! I was just going to add that hard steel is really a pain to sharpen. Friends of mine have a Shun set (VG-10 steel edge if I remember). They are typical married homeowner couple: Lovely marble cutting board for lovely knives that go into lovely dish washer... It took me by surprise how dull the knives were, but really took me by surprise how much more time it took to sharpen them vs. a host of other quality knives/steel types. VG-10 may not be the hardest steel, but my experience was that it is as hard as I will probably ever want in a knife. So, yes, steels make a huge difference - but at what Rockwell hardness level is 'too soft' to cut an onion?


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## northcack (Jan 21, 2013)

Great pictures. I have a Masakage Yuki 240mm Gyuto and it's my baby. I haven't had much of an issue re: reactiveness, I've cut cambros worth of onions for soup and no real sign of patina. Super well balanced, very sharp out of the box, and an absolute joy to sharpen. Takes a sick edge real quick. My only concern is edge retention, but that's from a professional stand point & really just splitting hairs. Awesome knives.

Edit: I will say that I keep mine far away from lemons, but that's just me..


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Is that a real coin on your new toy?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

mostadonte2 said:


> Also it comes very very sharp out of the box. I did not sharpen it yet, and I do not think I will have to in a while, so nothing to say here. Overall I am content with the buy. Now, money saving begins for the next one


Congradulations on pulling the trigger, but I believe what you need to be saving for now is an idahone and some sharpening stones.

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

re Trooper: "Is that a real coin on your new toy?"....

Looks like it to me.

There are a number of cultures where sending a knife without accompaniment to someone would be considered as "cutting off relations".  By enclosing a coin with the knife, it signifies that the sender is only sending the knife in friendship.  I can well accept that a seller wanting to signify that the knife was sent in friendship, especially if the seller would appreciate future business from the purchaser.

On the other hand, some cultures do it differently.  In Thailand, the recipient is expected to return a token coin.

Galley Swiller


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

Rick Alan said:


> Congradulations on pulling the trigger, but I believe what you need to be saving for now is an idahone and some sharpening stones.
> 
> Rick


Thanks man. I currently have IB8 (Combo India Coarse and Fine), 1.2K King, 5K Naniwa SS and 8K Imanishi. And I strop on cardboard and felt instead ot "steeling". I am in process of making my first leather strop; just bought some piece of leather today 

Also I am thinking of getting Sigma 240x to learn how to re-profile the edge and how to thin a knife.

This forum was a great help to get familiar with all the "paraphernalia", now it's time to practice and get better.


Galley Swiller said:


> re Trooper: "Is that a real coin on your new toy?"....
> 
> Looks like it to me.
> 
> ...


Quite interesting info, thanks for sharing, I like the idea!


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