# Chef's and ego's?



## masalaguy (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi All--

I've found this great resource and look forwarded to doing my best sponge impersonation and learning as much as I can from this incredible resource.

I have never worked near nor known any chef's etc.  But I am fascinated by food/cuisine and one of my guilty pleasures is watching any number of the reality shows on television centered around chefs (Top Chef etc.).  I fully realize that these shows are for entertainment value and give a "dramatic" twist on things but even then it seems to me there are a higher proportion of huge egos in the culinary world then in the other industry's i'm exposed to.

Am I correct or seeing a hugely skewed (or skewered) view of the industry?

Thanks!


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

For ego, I think doctors trump chefs every time.


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## the-boy-nurse (Aug 9, 2010)

Don't know a whole lot of chef's but doctors, for the most part I find they're just people. Well except orthopaedists and cardio-thoracic surgeons, I think they're some other life form altogether. And not entirely interested in human life except as it demonstrates their aptitude for cutting it open and putting it back together better than they found it. One thing is for certain if TV chefs are to real chefs as TV doctors are to real doctors... well let's just say very well educated, well behaved, polite people don't sell commercial time slots.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

To be a Chef, one has to have a certain amount of ego or more appropriately an unwavering confidence in ones ability to lead while simultaneously being creative. This can sometimes be mistaken for Ego. Although....like most fields..... we have those that can be full of themselves more than others and that is almost a majority. Hehehe Unfortunately, there are way to many points to hit on regarding this subject for this post so I won't even be able to scratch the surface. But like anything, where an actual talent and or art is involved, discretion should be used..... but that is not always the case. Ego is like vanity. Yet...... We all have our moments. Some more than others and more publicly as well. Personally I don't get how some gain in stature the way they do but there's always someone with way more money and influence than sense so that is probably a major point. There's just a fine line between eccentricity and idiocy and the biggest egos seem to follow the idiocy.

Bottom line is enjoy the shows that are out there for what they really are..........make-believe situations and controlled and edited reality. Chef's are also learning how to be good actors and are not what they appear to be on the boob tube. Then again...........Wow! Not everything that happens is meant to educate you and the true reality is that the business is very repetitive, and extremely taxing on every aspect of your life while at the same time is probably the most rewarding profession I've ever experienced. It is the epitome of an oxymoron.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I've given many talks (generally aimed at farmers) on how to work with chefs.....it starts out with:

these are people that work long hours in very hot environments with sharp knives.....get to the point quickly.  

Respect their business and don't show up during service, respect their time and have information readily available, if you want their business accomidate their communication patterns (email, phone, fax, text)......

Through the years I've worked with Tall white hat country club master chefs, independant chef/owners, caterers, pastry chefs, national media chefs, cookbook writer/chefs, top tier guys, etc...

hundreds of newbies too....there have only been a handful that were total pricks, cocky only thinking of themselves etc...

Most surprising sweetheart of a guy was Tony Bourdain....


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## pipelinegypsy (Aug 28, 2010)

I would say that seems to be the general consensus of the people I have talked to. I went to a local "bistro" a couple of months ago and noticed there was no salt or pepper on any of the tables. I asked the waitress about it and she leaned over and whispered, "The chef would be insulted if anyone used it." I would say that's presumptuous and egotistical. Certainly not all are like that though.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Taking umbrage at "pass the salt" has to be the acme of ego fragility. 

BDL


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## chefboyarg (Oct 28, 2008)

I find the whole salt and pepper thing crap. Everyone does not have the same palate and so maybe some people need more salt and pepper on their food. When the cook seasons a dish it is being seasoned according to how his/her palate feels the food should balance.


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## cookinmt (Aug 3, 2010)

Better to aim low and let people "adjust" their own seasoning, than offend someone with a lower tolerance for sodium. At least that's the American Diner method, which seems reasonable enough to me. Still, it seems awfully presumptuous when someone at the dinner table begins dumping salt on a meal _before_ tasting it.


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## islandcheferic (Aug 24, 2010)

I rarely use any salt in the kitchen...I do salt and pepper the tomatoes on a BLT..which I'm told is very odd. There is S&P on the tables.  And yes, I have a HUGE ego.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

There's a story about salt and "The French Laundry" In Napa:

Waiter comes into the kitchen and is visibly shaken and distraught. Expeditor asks what's up. The waiter whispers in his ear. "One of my guests just asked for salt."

The expeditor gently asks which table, then asks which course the table is on.

All the Sous Chefs descend on the Chef who sent out that course, tasting all the ingredients at his station. Sous Chef turns to Thomas Keller (The Chef) and says there's nothing wrong with the food and that everything is seasoned correctly.

Keller has 3 little Limoge salt cellars sitting on the counter "just in case"

He allows the waiter to fill one with Sea Salt before going out to the table.

The Chef at the station in question is, of course, sh___g bullets at this point, when Keller turns to him and says......."You're fine don't worry......"


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Why don't we add catsup or mustard in the kitchen?  Same reason we put s&p on table. Everyone has own taste,likes and dislikes. If a chef does not like this and it upsets his ego,let him make an appointment with a shrink.!


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Very seldom does the expectation of the customer exceed a higher level than a Chef expects of themselves. Don't confuse a high level of confidence, pride and passion as ego............................ChefBillyB


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

ChefBillyB said:


> Very seldom does the expectation of the customer exceed a higher level than a Chef expects of themselves. Don't confuse a high level of confidence, pride and passion as ego............................ChefBillyB


Confidence is one thing, but how can one person have confidence _that he knows the tastes of another_? How, in fact, can anyone expect that everyone has the same need, desire, or taste for something like salt???

If chefs knew what was Right or Perfect, then there should be no menu, no accounting for taste preferences and everyone would enjoy the exact same thing as everyone else (and of course the chef). Why bother to put choices on the menu, Someone (no doubt far superior to other mortals) knows best.

The pretension that all people's taste is the same and that someone knows what that universal taste is, is a perfect example of egocentrism (and i'm being kind).

I doubt, BillyB, that you think you know how much salt I, or anyone else, likes.

High level of confidence, pride and passion are great qualities. They are qualities that are within the person. People with these qualities tend to be quiet about them, because only the insecure have to brag all the time about how great they are or impose their superior knowledge on others.


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

ChefBillyB said:


> Very seldom does the expectation of the customer exceed a higher level than a Chef expects of themselves. Don't confuse a high level of confidence, pride and passion as ego............................ChefBillyB


Well said ChefBilly. I do think though some chefs are completely arrogant and should temper their passion with humility. Especially given how so many are examples of how to carry yourself in the kitchen to younger chefs.

As for how skewered the tv shows are? I think they are spot on, sadly there are no shortage of idiots and ego maniacs in the business.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

siduri said:


> Confidence is one thing, but how can one person have confidence _that he knows the tastes of another_? How, in fact, can anyone expect that everyone has the same need, desire, or taste for something like salt???
> 
> If chefs knew what was Right or Perfect, then there should be no menu, no accounting for taste preferences and everyone would enjoy the exact same thing as everyone else (and of course the chef). Why bother to put choices on the menu, Someone (no doubt far superior to other mortals) knows best.
> 
> ...


The amount of salt that you like or anyone likes has nothing to do with it, its the amount of salt the Chef feels it takes to bring the meal together to a point of taste and balance he desires. That's why they put salt and pepper on the table and have more than one restaurant in town. ................ChefBillyB............( Its must be raining in Rome )


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Yeah, exactly.  But the thread was about egocentric chefs freaking out if someone wanted more salt.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Nicko said:


> Well said ChefBilly. I do think though some chefs are completely arrogant and should temper their passion with humility. Especially given how so many are examples of how to carry yourself in the kitchen to younger chefs.
> 
> As for how skewered the tv shows are? I think they are spot on, sadly there are no shortage of idiots and ego maniacs in the business.


Nicko, very true. I always walked my dining room, one day my hostess asked me, do I walk the dinning room so I can get all the compliments, I told her no, I make sure there are no complaints. I can't correct a problem, unless my customer knows I am out for their best interests and approachable to correct their concerns.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

siduri said:


> Yeah, exactly. But the thread was about egocentric chefs freaking out if someone wanted more salt.


Go back and read the OP, and have a glass of wine, I'm buying............./img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


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## web monkey (Jan 18, 2007)

ChefBillyB said:


> The amount of salt that you like or anyone likes has nothing to do with it, its the amount of salt the Chef feels it takes to bring the meal together to a point of taste and balance he desires. That's why they put salt and pepper on the table and have more than one restaurant in town. ................ChefBillyB............( Its must be raining in Rome )





ChefBoyarG said:


> I find the whole salt and pepper thing crap. Everyone does not have the same palate and so maybe some people need more salt and pepper on their food. When the cook seasons a dish it is being seasoned according to how his/her palate feels the food should balance.


The amount of salt people prefer depends on the amount of salt they've been eating: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0031-9384(86)90155-1 Even within the same person, the preferred salt level changes over time.

Same thing goes for the rest of the flavor profile. Just because someone wants sriracha or tabasco doesn't mean the chef screwed up, it might mean that the customer has a sinus problem and can can't taste anything without a little "wake up call"

FWIW, if I think my food needs something and the chef give me attitude, I'll leave. Live is too short to waste time on a-holes. I certainly don't want anybody in the kitchen beaten or fired because I wanted to add something to my food, but in the end, it's *my* food and I'll do what I want with it.

Terry


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Go back and read the OP.......... _

Like so many others, this thread took on a life of its own. But, in actuality, the use of salt can be thought of as a metaphor for the OP's original question.

The fact is, the TV shows are not skewed, in that regard. This is an industry that is top heavy with run-away egos. And why not? It's a creative business, and creativity comes from the ego, from the idea that I can do this (whatever "this" happens to be) better than anyone else.

This is typified where Chef Billy says: _The amount of salt that you like or anyone likes has nothing to do with it, its the amount of salt the Chef feels it takes to bring the meal together to a point of taste and balance he desires. _That is a statement that reflects pure ego. It's a chef saying that it doesn't matter what you like, or how you think the dish should be seasoned. What matters is that the dish taste the way *I *say it should*. *

Anybody who thinks that isn't egotistical needs to look up the definition of the word.

_Don't confuse a high level of confidence, pride and passion as ego_

Chef Billy, it is not a question of confusing those things. They are one and the same. The problem is, you (and many others) read "ego" as a bad thing. And, indeed, it's often used that way. I'm saying, however, that instead of hiding behind other words and concepts you proudly proclaim your egoism. It is, after all, what makes you special as a chef. A chef who isn't egotistical needs to get back on the line, where he can follow somebody else's vision, and make room for somebody who has a vision of his own.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _Go back and read the OP.......... _
> 
> Like so many others, this thread took on a life of its own. But, in actuality, the use of salt can be thought of as a metaphor for the OP's original question.
> 
> ...


I couldn't disagree with you more...............You guys watch to much TV


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## web monkey (Jan 18, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _Go back and read the OP.......... _
> 
> Like so many others, this thread took on a life of its own. But, in actuality, the use of salt can be thought of as a metaphor for the OP's original question.


Salt isn't a metaphor, it directly addresses the OP's point.

Whether it's called ego, hubris or any number of other things, when the chef values his own opinion more than that of the people who will be eating and paying for the food, the game is over and it's time to go home.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi all,

   I personally don't mind that much if a person has a large ego.  Many times, a person with a large ego may operate at a higher level than his peers, he's earned it.  But too often I see people with false ego acting like they somehow earned the right to be an idiot.

   I don't believe the ego of one group (such as cooks) is any different from another field (such as artists, musicians, factory workers, police workers, firefighter, doctors...on and on).  If I hear another person try to glorify their job by comparing it to organized chaos, I think I may vomit.  Know your job, do your job and perform well at it.

   Like I said above...If a person has a large ego, deservedly, I can deal with it.  But there's a lot of restaurants that throw some jarred Demi Gold on a dish and declare that they're a French Chef.  I have no problem going out to eat and enjoying a decent meal.  The food doesn't always have to be prepared to perfection...or cooked with the best ingredients...not at all.  But if you're going to try and pull off some snobby over inflated ego, you had better be good.  There's too many places that don't make their own stock, sauces...there's too many places that don't cook from scratch.  It's actually fine if a place doesn't do all of this...but I don't believe you even begin to deserve an ego if you do.

  Mexican food is a perfect example.  Mexican food can be both simple and other times quite complicated.  When prepared well, and cooked from scratch, even the most simple Mexican dish can be one of life's treats.  Cook a great steak taco (onions, cilantro) you'll have my respect...open a jar of pre-made mole, not so much.  To have an ego you had better be dang deserving!

   I just think there's way too many people walking around with false ego's.  Association in a field doesn't give you the right to another persons accomplishments.

   dan


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Back to the original subject, especially Top Chef.  I think most everyone is pretty grounded.  The contestants are there to compete -- to WIN!  The contestants have a certain level of skill to be where they are.  They are entirely correct to compare themselves to the competition.  The "guest judges" are usually pretty grounded too.  That sunken-eyed French (guessing) guy, he's a bit of a tool, IMHO.  I think the judges on Chopped are pretty good too.  I can see from the judge's chair how they would feel "I'm a well-known chef, known for serving great food. I expect to be shown some level of respect in the food you bring me." 

My wife is a salter.  She salts food before she even tries it, which I just can't understand.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Interesting comments all.

*ChefBillyB wrote...*

* "The amount of salt that you like or anyone likes has nothing to do with it, its the amount of salt the Chef feels it takes to bring the meal together to a point of taste and balance he desires." *

I only point this out as a contrast to going to a car mechanic or an accountant, or for that matter, any other professional where an expertise is involved.

We shell out bucks for having the right person for the right job done the right way.

Is this not the same situation?

We shell out bucks when we go out in anticipation of a good meal.

Not always, but some of the time we get what we pay for in great food and service.

Why is it that we have to pay big bucks for great food and service and can get away cheaply at another place where the staff is clueless?

Then when the tables are turned, the food is properly seasoned according to its' recipe and there are no s/p shakers on the table we call that egotism?

I call it self confidence that the Chef can properly season food. His reputation for same is wide spread and he/she is famous for it. People flock to their restaurant to try the food.

This is not ego.

This is professionalism.

The fact that YOU think there should be more salt on the dish is irrelevant.

You are there to try the food. If you don't care for the food, don't return again.

Those that do like that kind of thing remain the restaurants patrons.

There is a fine line between being a professional culinarian who knows food and an egotistical shoemaker who make a lot of fuss over nothing......


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Sorry, chefross, salt is not something that is "right" in an absolute sense. People apparently have different tolerance levels for salt at the physiological level. We might say it;s a little like hearing. If i have bad hearing and can't hear the music on what might be the "right" volume for someone else, or even for the vast majority of people, I still need it turned up. And if I have super-sensitive hearing, i will want the volume down, no matter what any musical "expert" says. If I've been used to low salt levels, I will find what most people find insipid to be too salty. And if I'm used to high salt levels, I'll need more salt. So what. Does it offend your culinary expertise to have someone want to actually be able to TASTE what you cook? Because that's what it amounts to. The salt doesn;t change the subtle qualities and nuances that a good chef can create and balance, it only makes them perceptible. Like the volume on the music. I dread with every medical exam that the doctor will say i need to cut down on salt. It would take all the joy out of food. I would probably just survive on cereal.

Sorry, but _this_ is where the Ego comes in.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

On the topic of salt, I rarely use it when I cook.  It goes back to my childhood... my mom had high blood pressure and had to cut salt out of her diet so the rest of the family went salt free along with her so I've long been used to salt free food.  We're pretty much salt free at home as it's just what I am used to.  I do add salt to tomato sauce and of course I salt my french fries but that's about it... I will use it in baking as well as it's necessary.  Otherwise we are salt free.. I don't salt the water when I steam vegetables or cook pasta and I leave it out of everything.  At work I do use salt but I tend to undersalt things and I always have another cook taste my soup and tell me if it needs to be salted more as I know I'm a poor judge when it comes to salt. 

Ego... we all have one and it comes out at varying degrees depending on the person.

Right now I am laughing... I posted a while back about a head office trainer who completely made me mad when he stood there and watched me sink on fruits.  Well.. one of the locations was sold back to corporate and he is now working on the line.  The trainers are great when it comes to book knowlege but OMG are they ever useless during service.  This location is almost completely staffed by trainers and they have no clue how to work the line.  Yes my ego is showing but the guy who let me sink is now the only one doing fruits at that location and his chit times on fruits run into the 35 minute range all the time.  My worst chit time on fruits is 20 minutes and that is usually when I get hit with a bunch of intricate plates all at once with a birthday bird thrown into the mix.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

siduri said:


> Sorry, chefross, salt is not something that is "right" in an absolute sense. People apparently have different tolerance levels for salt at the physiological level. We might say it;s a little like hearing. If i have bad hearing and can't hear the music on what might be the "right" volume for someone else, or even for the vast majority of people, I still need it turned up. And if I have super-sensitive hearing, i will want the volume down, no matter what any musical "expert" says. If I've been used to low salt levels, I will find what most people find insipid to be too salty. And if I'm used to high salt levels, I'll need more salt. So what. Does it offend your culinary expertise to have someone want to actually be able to TASTE what you cook? Because that's what it amounts to. The salt doesn;t change the subtle qualities and nuances that a good chef can create and balance, it only makes them perceptible. Like the volume on the music. I dread with every medical exam that the doctor will say i need to cut down on salt. It would take all the joy out of food. I would probably just survive on cereal.
> 
> Sorry, but _this_ is where the Ego comes in.


GGGGEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZ, on my next trip to Rome I was going to invite you out to Dinner and a Concert, forget that idea..............EgoBillyB


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

Lol this thread is about Ego, or salt? We all have an Ego it just depends on how over inflated it is, mine happens to be HUGE /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif

The salt thing is another subject but a very interesting one.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)




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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There IS an objective and correct _range_ of seasoning levels (most definitely including salt) for restaurant cooking. When someone like Tom Colicchio says "properly seasoned" or "beautifully seasoned," that's what he means. He doesn't mean the cook somehow managed to read Tom's personal tastes. If you're going to cook in a high-end restaurant, you better be able to hit the proper level, and every time.

Home cooking, not so much.

The "sunken eyed" French cook judging on Top Chef is Eric Ripert. He can cook a little.

As a weird sort of side note, I find myself getting bored with my own cooking precisely because the levels are so consistent. As we all know, spariety is the vice of life.

BDL


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

ChefBillyB said:


> GGGGEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZ, on my next trip to Rome I was going to invite you out to Dinner and a Concert, forget that idea..............EgoBillyB


As some have said... ego in itself is not necessarily bad. If i didn;t have a pretty big one of my own, do you think I'd be bothering to write all these replies!?

And now i miss out on a great dinner and concert, all for that! Not fair!!!

... but don;t touch my salt!


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

boar_d_laze said:


> There IS an objective and correct _range_ of seasoning levels (most definitely including salt) for restaurant cooking. When someone like Tom Colicchio says "properly seasoned" or "beautifully seasoned," that's what he means. He doesn't mean the cook somehow managed to read Tom's personal tastes. If you're going to cook in a high-end restaurant, you better be able to hit the proper level, and every time.
> 
> Home cooking, not so much.
> 
> ...


I agree, unless you hit a certain level of seasoning the food will be bland, bland, bland. This is why when we go to restaurants the food tastes better (or at least it is should). Seasoning is one of the basic rules of cooking and one of the first things you learn as a cook. Yet when we have customers who don't want salt, butter or whatever we have to respect that, after all they are paying the bill.

To deny the customer salt at the table is a little pretentious and to think that a chef can season pefectly for everyones palette is a little misguided. Another basic rule in cooking is that you will never please everyone all of the time as much as we all try. One man's perfection is another man's flaw.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Greg said:


>


Another great thread.

Greg, after a day like today, this is just what I needed. Thank you.....ever have such a good laugh and tears start to roll down ? I checked some other clips like the "illegal cheese" (when he was looking for Stilton) and the wooden cutting board scene....too much !

Salt and pepper on the table are not put out. This is the way the "Lady of the House" wanted it from the first day and its been that way ever since . If there is a question on any dish, they ask me. I taste 3 times before it gets plated.

I always make it a point to see the clients two minutes after service to "see if everything is ok". I never viewed this an "ego trip" and since this thread has started it still does not affect my thinking on how I do things in my kitchen.

At home...........there is salt in 3 flavors offered.....guests come over , I want them to decide what they would like and what makes it nice is that saltier dish is small so it adds a bit of charm to the table.. Once its oversalted...there is no going back. To each his own, each person has a different palate to please.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Just had dinner last night at a top rated fine dining restaurant.....the chef-owner is young (early 30's).  Gratis snacky treats came out oversalted...seriously. My date took a bite of a few things and left the rest.  When the mgr asked if everything was OK he said NO.  I covered with a laugh and said he caught us in the middle of an intense conversation.  Owner came out at the end of service and talked for a while....I didn't wanna bring up negative shtuff in front of date/cooking client.  Deciding now whether to send mention it via email....or wait until Wed. farmer's market.....or just let it slide.

Tough being at the top of a pedistal, there's nowhere to go but down.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

You know better then to let it slide. Your business ,like his thrives on recommendation of others and satisfied clients. If you are not told its bad, how can you fix it. You will be doing them, a favor by telling them Nothing wrong with constructive comments..EDB


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## martha1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think the ego is connected to their feeling as an artist.
They have certain pride in their work and creations.

And they need some confidence to create new things.

And if their confidence is derrived from their cooking then you hurt their confidence when there is any negative remarks about their cooking.

So it's not real confidence but just an ego.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Ed, I'm with you.....but Martha just expressed it fairly succintly, I'm not into giving advice to people unless they want it.

The GM asked about our meal. The chef-owner did not.....but I guarantee he heard all the comments made from our table and also saw the plates come back.


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