# pricing for party slices vs wedding slices



## mbcakes (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm opening my cake shop soon and trying to set up my price list. Working out of the house, I could charge by the cake or whether or not I wanted to do the cake but now I'm trying to set a standard price scheduale. Do you charge more for wedding cake slices or party cake slices? I've always thought to charge more for a wedding cake slice but my boyfriend brought up the arguement that if two people order a cake for 100, with the same design, why should the bride pay more if the party cake would require a larger cake.  Good arguement, **** him! So I'd like your feedback on this one. Which should cost more and by how much? Also, those of you that make vegan or special diet cakes(organic, etc) do you charge more than a standard cake?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

My opinion....I think the ONLY way you can really set your prices is to really know what the prices are in your area. Clients will compare your prices to others. 
Then you have to know where your product fits in. Are you one of the best around, do you have a reputation? Lots of things go into your pricing in addition to your costs. 

I disagree with your boyfriend about pricing on wedding cakes vs. party cakes. Wedding cakes involve internal support systems, sheet cakes don't. They require abit more skill then what the average grocery store bakery


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

sorry, my key board froze up.

Anyway wedding cakes aren't something a client picks up at your store like a sheet cake. They rarely are as simple as party cakes....I just don't think your boyfreind is comparing apples to apples.

Then there's always the "market factor"...meaning if the rest of the bakerys in the world are charging more money for wedding cakes then party cakes you'd be silly not to do the same. UNLESS you had solid other reasons why you wanted and could afford to under bid everyone else.
Then don't forget to factor in who your then selling to, do you want to be the cheapest place in town? There will be people who won't even consider buying from the cheapest because they think that means less quality....

I think vegan cakes cost more mainly because they're a speciality. You can't get them every where.

What's your goals...quality vs. quantity? What's your market like? If your in a poor side of town, will you survive selling high end cakes? What's your over head like, what's your break even point?

My best advice is to compare prices locally, deside on your prices then do some homework at: http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/index

They had a profound influence on my pricing and business plan.


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## mbcakes (Apr 5, 2002)

Hey your computer sucks like mine huh? I rarely do sheetcakes but when I do they are torted and filled just like a regular cake. I've done tiered cakes for parties but since no overhead I just charged whatever I wanted. Now that I have to commit, to some degree, to a price list I'm in a dilemma as to whether or not to charge more per slice for a tiered party cake that has larger size slices that a tiered wedding cake. I'm starting to think I should use the same slice size no matter the occasion but a 1" x 2" x 4" wedding slice seems a bit stingy for a party. Maybe I should stop being lazy and develop my own pan/slice chart instead of using wilton's. It's just a daunting task I'd rather leave to others, truth be told.


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## lotuscakestudio (Jun 28, 2001)

I had a chart for servings I got from school that my chef made and that is what I use. It's pretty accurate, but I've tweaked it out a bit. Anyhow, according to that chart, a party dessert serving is 5 square inches. I think (for me), 4 square inches is good for a "party" slice. When I think "dessert" portion, I think of the cake being the full dessert. When I think "party", I think there is other dessert- scoop of ice cream, or what have you, and that 4 square inches (twice the size of a wedding portion) is enough, especially if your cakes are the same height as a wedding cake tier.

Wendy, I think what mbcakes meant by charging the same for birthday and wedding cakes is that if there both cakes are exactly the same, both tiered and intricately decorated, why should one cost more than the other just because one is for a wedding. (Am I right mb?) I charge the same amount as a wedding cake and tell the customer the servings are based on wedding servings and if they need bigger servings, then they need to order more cake. But in this situations, if they are getting a tiered cake and paying a lot of money, they are having more of an "event" than a backyard barbeque or informal get together at Great Aunt Mary's house. So there are other desserts as well (petit fours, minis, etc.) and all they need are wedding portions anyway.

As for smaller birthday cakes, using a 9" cake as an example, mine start at $55. (I don't do plain cakes; all of them have gp flowers or some kind of doo dad on them). One cake I recently sold at $55 had 3 smallish-medium gp roses on them, a quilted pattern going around the side (using a press, very fast), and a tiny gp flower at each "X" using an ejector (also very fast). Looking back, I should have charge a little more, but oh well, next time I'll get it right. Anyhow, I was thinking at the time, "Geez, this could easily be a tier in a wedding cake. And I would get $95 out of that!" I started to feel like I let myself get ripped off, but then I realized that even though the cakes are the same, there is a lot LESS effort that goes into a 9" cake and a 9" cake that is a part of a tier. For me, a 9" cake means a phone call from the customer wanting a cake, a 5 minute conversation, usually ending with, "Just make it pretty" or "do it however you think it will look best", and me making the cake, and the customer picking it up. A 9" cake that is a part of a tier means it's either a wedding or some other big important event or function. It means meeting with her for about 2 hours. It means letting her taste samples. It means me running around looking for the tools or whatever it takes to make her dream cake a reality. It means waiting for her to sign a contract and me really trying to sell myself. It means a mental bride who needs to call and email me several times or a million times. Basically, it means TIME and time is money. So keeping all this in mind, suddenly the $55 bucks I was making seemed like a lot more since it didn't require much time.

Mike (Mike's Amazing Cakes) has a "base" price for his birthday cakes then has additional art charges. I thought about using this method, but I am not a bakery and I don't want to offer plain cakes simply b/c no money is made from making them unless they're done in a high enough volume (you know, "Happy Birthday" with buttercream roses). So I was thinking that if there is any hint at all to a "base" price for a "plain" cake, people will see that and think, "Oh, she does plain cakes for $35! I'll just get a plain one and save money!" Anyhow, Mike has some pricing info on his site you may want to check out: Mike's Amazing Cakes.


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## mbcakes (Apr 5, 2002)

Hey Lotus, 

You got it right about what I was asking. I'm not going to be a bakery either. I want to gear my cake shop toward wedding cakes and special occasion cakes. I'm trying to stay away from sheetcakes and simple cakes because they're a dime a dozen here with all the local bakeries and supermarkets. I don't want to compete with 1.00 slice cakes or $15 b-day cakes. I'm thinking that I'll use the wedding slice size for both party and weddings and if someone wants extra cake then they can order extra slices. I'm curious...what does 4 square inches of cake work out to? It sound like its about the size of a wedding cake slice. I thinking a base price for sculpted cakes is a good idea and also setting a higher price for tiered cakes is a must since I can't be bothered with collecting rental fees for pillars and plates. I never seem to get those things back. One bride brought back the wooden dowels from the cake instead of the plastic pillars and plates...now that's scary. The cake you charged $55 for, was it buttercream or fondant? According to the wilton chart that's $2.50 slice, 22 party slices. Less than $2 for 32 wedding slices. Plus you using gum paste. Maybe you're justified in raising those prices afterall? I know, it depends on the market and where you like. Sorry, I can't help but think like a NYer!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok, so then you answered your own question about pricing mb...you said it takes more effort to tier them, plus you have money in equpiment that doesn't come back...

I understand and appreciate your points for your intial question. When you can compare apples to apples then the price should be the same. But the comparision has to include TIME or effort involved not just what the end product looks like. 

I do like how Mikes seperates out his art charge. It makes wonderful sense if your doing alot of b-day cakes. Cause b-day cakes is where almost all decorators give away money. The clock starts ticking (the pay roll begins) the second your brain (or your employees brain) has to focus on what to make and how to do it. B-day cakes are more custom usually then wedding cakes picked out by photos, if you think about it. So if you figure out what you want and need to make per hour then you could work-up aprox. time tables to guesstmate what to charge per "art object" placed on you b-day cakes. Using a chart based on cake size could kill a business if you don't charge enough to recoupe your actual costs in labor. 

Portion size. I honestly think if your going to set up shop and be a pro. then you need to know exactly what your portions look like (ON A PLATE) so you can both defend your size and sell your size when ever questioned. Eventually someone WILL question you on this issue.
The ladies at the other site have posted soooo many sources for portion size it will be easy to have reference material. Bake a 9" round and cut it into the size your selling. I personally think a 9" cake serves 18/19 slices, in a size that I'm proud of (it's only 16 slices for a mid-western dessert portion). If I'm going to ask top dollar for my work, then I never want to be called out and told my portions were cheap or hear anyone ran out. The costs for the cake ingredients (wedding) is cheap in comparision to the good or bad it can do to your reputation. After you make the 9" round and see what size you want to sell it's easy to take that measurement (cut it out in paper) then place it on drawn out diagrams using your larger cake pans. It's terribly simple to do. Then you'll never worry about your portions again.


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## lotuscakestudio (Jun 28, 2001)

mb,
What I meant by X amount of square inches was the surface area (like how a wedding portion is generally 2" x 1" and however high your cake is. Five square inch "dessert" portions is getting 12 servings from a 9" and this is what was used for plated desserts at a restaurant I externed at. A slice that big on a decorated plate, (you know, simple pool of raspbery sauce with creme anglaise squiggles and berries tossed here and there), went for $5.50, but that was 4 years ago. I'm sure that's close to $7 now.

The $55 cake I did was with buttercream. I based that cake on 16 servings (anything smaller than that at a birthday party and I complain... at least inwardly) so it breaks down to $3.43/party (and $1.71/wedding). Which would have been worth it if I left off the 3 gp roses. Which now thinking it over, the original $10 I had wanted to add to that should be more like $20 now. So $75 for a party cake and $95 for a wedding cake. For me, that is starting to sound a bit more normal. (As you can see, I am still working out my pricing and portions too). 

I am doing a 1/4 sheet cake for this Saturday for $65. It's for a kid's b-day party and I was given creative leeway b/c the father was afraid to request anything (even the color) in fear the price would go up. Cheapskate. I'm just doing a sea life theme- blue icing with using push out molds to make a few fondant animals to go on top and around the sides. I'm not going to concentrate on making the water look real or detailing the animals. This one is just pocket change. Also for kid cakes, which are always sheet cakes for some reason, I do only 2 layers (3.5 - 4" total height). They don't care. I do 3 layers for the grown ups and charge more. 

<--- going to make changes to my price list RIGHT NOW.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Everybody had good points but here is my 2 cents:

Anything tiered is priced with "wedding cake prices". In addition to the tiers, you have to consider delivery, samples (if you offer them), design time and consultation. If you are not going for production work then you are spending a lot of time on design. 

I consider all my cakes with wedding size slices in mind. If this is a special occasion, this is how most people serve them. However, my customers are aware of that when they order. If they want dessert size slices as in a restaurant they are still going to get charged the same as those wedding cake sized slices. I have a basic price on my "party" cakes and that includes minimal decorating. Any gumpaste, fondant, anything is an extra charge. A buttercream logo or custom stencil is also extra. Please note that the majority of my business is wedding cakes. The people who order party cakes want something extra special or just love my cake. If they want something that just says happy birthday, then they usually go elsewhere. 

If you are running a custom shop, make sure you are charging custom prices. You can crank out more cakes when you've done the same one over 1000 times, but when you are customizing each one, it slows things down. Don't sell yourself short.


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## mbcakes (Apr 5, 2002)

Hey Anna W. You said that it a customer wants dessert slices that you don't charge extra but what if they want dessert slices for their wedding cake? Would you then charge extra? 

I am gearing toward custom party and wedding cakes. I try not to do the same cake more than 2x. I haven't had complaints from people about the size of their slices or not enough cake but then again I offered larger slices for party cakes. After thinking on responses here and on other sites(professional and non) I'm thinking using a 1 x 2 x 4 slice for all cakes is easier. I'd planned on having a fake cake slice in the 1x2x4 wedding and the 2x2x4 party sizes....OK here's a scenario for you.... on my fake party slice I have a price tag for $3 and on my fake wedding slice I have a tag for $4. A bride comes in for a consult, looks around and sees demo cakes of custom party and custom wedding cakes. Then she sees the size of my fake slices. Now she decides that she wants a custom wedding cake but with party slices and at the cheaper price. Now I've backed myself into a hole. I think that choosing either to use exclusively the party size or the wedding size slice is the best way to handle my pricing. Of couse the additional labor and art is added in. The per slice cost covers basic icings and flavors, a minimum of decorations, etc. Anything beyond (bouquet sugar flowers, gum paste figures or sculptures) would be additional. I think a 1x2x4 is a nice size slice of cake but I do realize some want more than this so I now have to decide if it's more worthwhile to use a larger cake slice for all cakes or just tell customers to order extra cake if they want larger slices. Boy this topic stirs up alot of trouble huh? I appreciate the feedback from everyone because it helps me to make a decision(and answer my own questions


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

To clarify what I said....If Some one wants a 9" cake, my chart shows that this will provide 25 slices of the 1x2x4 size. I will charge $45 for this cake. If someone only wants to cut it into 16 slices, the charge is still $45. I have found that unless they are having a fancy dinner party- most want the smaller(1x2x4) slices. Any time I suggest bigger slices, I get a "Who is really going to eat that much cake?" reaction. This has even happened in regards to 6" centerpiece cakes being cut into 6 or 8 slices. I don't know if they are cheap, or want you to think they don't indulge in sweets or what. I have had only one woman who didn't think it was big enough and decided she didn't want to pay for extra cake but plated it with sorbet and berries (she said it saved her money- not sure- she did have a pretty elaborate cake).

Another point about the wedding cake vs. party cake scenario. My party cakes have two layers of cake, one layer of filling. My wedding cakes have 4 layers of cake, 3 layers of filling. Same amount of cake but more filling and filling is more expensive than cake.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I've never heard anyone say that Anna, "who's really going to eat that much cake?". Hum, I've heard just the opposite and people requesting I make extra because they want left-overs. And that's from very thin wealthy people....Funny how different one place is from another. 

At clubs they always plate cake with berries, sauces or sorbets....cake is never served alone. 

I always make 3 layers of cake, 2 of filling, regardless of event. 
I don't know...to me I think it gets too confusing in the kitchen to torte differently for different parties and to cut different sized portions based on party type.

Annas' charging the same amount for the same size cake works nicely too. Then you're adding for decorations, design time, delivery and tiering (plus equpiment costs and rental fees) consultations?. 

I've never been one to get thrilled making b-day cakes. Theres so much custom work going on there compared to wedding cake work. I actually spent alot of time looking at b-day cake designs. I've printed out tons of images and thought if I did ever go into them I would have a couple of designs per event (if that makes sense). Keep my research time down (have a photo book of designs) and production level up. Not too much different then the grocery store but a night and day difference in quality. Then customize with small add ons. If they wanted a totally custom cake then the price would have to go way up.

You can feel the costs when your using a mix for your cake. But scratch cakes are for the most part cheap. I've always thought it's easier to be generous with my portions then my time (unless your talking wedding cake). What's your thoughts?


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

W- I don't think I will ever make a good teacher- can't get across my point in the first sentence . I figure the serving sizes the same as wedding cakes. However, wedding cakes are more per serving because of all those reasons you listed. 

I don't like birthday cakes because, it seems to take up so much time for just a little cake, for so little money. To me, for a little more time, I can make a lot more money. It might be different if I did production work because then I could do a bunch assembly line style. People give you a little more room with creativity in wedding cakes, too, which satisfies my creative juices. I am not a big fan of writing on cakes, either. I am hoping to one day be so busy that I can no longer accept small cakes at all.


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## mbcakes (Apr 5, 2002)

Don't despairs Anna, I don't remember many of my teachers getting their point across in the first 20 minutes let alone the first sentance. I've figured my prices and slices, thanks for all the help. Nothing like a good debate to get the brain juices going.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I'm just gonna throw in our wedding and occassion cakes are completely serarate both in pricing ,literature and consultations. otherwise you WILL get caught. portioning and pricing the rounds as they go larger is done quite easily by multiplying by pi. If you need more on that my 11 yr old will be glad to help(he did mine). Our party portions are 2X's greater then our wedding portion. We price all our wedding cakes by size and not portions(our portions are a little larger the the printed numbers. 14-10-6...120-150pp competitors. ours 14-10-6...100pp We use this as a tool to close(theirs 150ppX3=450.) (ours 100x3=300).
mbcakes, this may sound crazy, but make an association with someone else who does the same type of work in your area. Once you start to do some volume your customer will greatly appreciate a good referal if your busy. Our first couple of years we never knew the names of our biggest competitor,Now we have developed a referal system that has actually increased both our incidential business as well as our wedding. not to mention being able to take some time off when needed.
jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hey Jeff, I never thought of it that way before. 150 x $3.00=$450....small servings for more money, that's a great sales point. Da__ I'm glad your here!

But if your party cakes are twice the portion size then your wedding cakes what's to stop your customer from noticing? Surely there has to be overlap? You can't hide these facts among loyal customers.

And I'm still not sure I believe in smaller portions for weddings. What about, that's just not fair? It's not like the guests aren't going to eat a bigger piece or the brides family wouldn't want left overs or that the help wants a taste too (its good to be nice to the help, they pass on the word about who's good and who stinks through-out the industry). If the profit is there for a bigger portion in dessert cakes then we certainly know it's there in a wedding cake.

But I'm also in the camp that the top cake should be cut, not saved.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Hmmmm....now I may have to rethink everything I 
do!!!!!!!!! Good points!

Wendy- the top tier thing is a pet peeve of mine! What could possibly taste good frozen for over a year? Most brides these days seem to agree with me but thier mothers.......they say "but it's tradition" to which I reply, it's a fairly new tradition because they didn't even invent a freezer until the 1940's and most people didn't even have one until the 1950's. It's not like it is a tradition that dates back centuries. In most cases only thier mothers did this, not thier grandmothers. I can usually sway a bride by saying that I'll make her an anniversary cake ON her anniversary.


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## alexia (Mar 3, 2002)

Anna & Wendy, the custom of saving part of the wedding cake is probably a very old one coming from a time when wedding cakes were fruitcakes. I'm not up on all the details and some of what I say may be somewhat "off," and I'll gladly be corrected by someone who is better informed on the history of wedding cakes.

Firstly, it is only recently that any but the wealthiest had catered wedding feasts. Mostly wedding celebrations were prepared by the families. (Or in the case of the wealthy, by the servents in their home). The cakes until relatively recently included dark fruitcakes called Groom's cakes. The light Bride's Cake sometimes also had spices, candied peel, and almond/orange extract/rosewater, etc. In the US, from colonial times (I believe), a bride's cake and a groom's cake were prepared, the bride's cake was the one cut first at the wedding. I believe sometimes both were served, sometimes, the groom's cake was saved. Such a cake, wrapped in fondant would keep for quite awhile.

As late as the 60/70's (& perhaps still), little slices were individually iced with almond paste and/or fondant, wrapped in individual gift boxes for the guests to take as favors. When visiting a friend at Spitfire Lake (NY) many years ago, they took us to see friends of theirs who had recently had a wedding and we were given some of the many little gift boxes of cake.

My MIL's very tattered copies of Boston Ckg Sch. Ckbk and Settlement each give as Wedding cakes ONLY fruitcakes. (date back to early 20th century, but title page is missing). I have in my files a couple recipes for Groom's Cake (below) as I love fruitcakes. At the time I added them, I neglected to note the source, but I believe it was Gourmet Mag. I can't find any titled Bride's cake in my file, but there is one in the 2 Vol Gourmet Ckbk.


GROOM'S CAKE
2 sticks butter softened
2 1/4 cup confectioners' sugar
5 large eggs
1 1/2 cup all-purpose flour combined with 2 tsp cinnamon,
1 tsp ground allspice
1 tsp freshly grated nutmeg
1/2 tsp ground cloves
1/4 cup fresh lemon juice combined with 1/2 cup unsweetened bottled grape juice
1 Tbs grated lemon rind
1 1/2 cup raisins
1 1/2 cup finely chopped glaceed citron
1 1/2 cup coarsely chopped blanched almonds
1/3 cup sieved apricot jam

8" round straight sided baking dish with 3" deep sides lined with buttered wax paper.

In mixer cream butter til light and fluffy; add 2 cups confectioners' sugar, 1/4 cup at a time, beating and beat til smooth. Add eggs,1 x 1, beating after each addition. Add flour mixture and the juice mixture alternately a third at a time; stir in rind, fruits, almonds. Turn batter into dish; cover batter with a buttered round of wax paper; cover with double layer of foil secured with kitchen string. Set on rack in kettle with tight fitting lid; add enough simmering water to kettle to reach halfway up sides of dish; steam cake. Adjust heat as necessary to keep water at a simmer and adding more water as necessary for 2 1/2 hours to 3 hours or til cake tester inserted through foil into center of cake comes out clean.

Remove dish carefully from kettle, remove foil and wax paper. Let cake stand on rack 30 minutes. Run thin knife around inside edge of dish; invert rack over cake and invert cake onto it. Let cake cool completely. May be stored in airtight container for 1 week or frozen, wrapped tightly in plastic wrap for several weeks. Transfer to platter. Sift 1/4 cup confectioner's sugar over top and brush sides with apricot jam, heated. Yields 24 very thin slices.


GROOM'S CAKE (II)
4 cup sifted all purpose flour
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp each of ground cloves, cinnamon, mace
2 cup butter or margarine
2 1/4 cup (1 #) firmly packed brown sugar
10 eggs, well beaten
1/2 lb each candied cherries and pineapple
1 lb dates, seeded and sliced
1 lb each seedless raisins and currants
1/2 lb citron, thinly sliced
1/4 lb each of candied orange and lemon peel
2 cup chopped nuts
1 cup each honey and molasses
1/2 cup cider

Sift flour, baking powder, spices together 3 times. Cream butter. Gradually add sugar; cream til light and fluffy. Add eggs, fruits, peels, nuts, honey, molasses, and cider. Gradually add sifted dry ingredients, beating after each addition til blended. Spoon into 3 loaf pans (10 x 5 x 3" each), greased, lined with heavy paper, and greased again. Bake in preheated very slow oven (250°f) for 3 1/2 to 4 hours. Makes 80 servings.

Half cake served at reception; remainder put in gift boxes.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

WDB,
The portion really doesn't matter much for us because we price by the cake. If someone is doing a wedding consultation Sophie tells them to plan on 30 portions. 9"If someone is asking for birthday portions we will tell them it feed 12-16 people. Our dollar structure is explained as a production cost. Our wedding cake production is completely diff from our specialty pro.
We offer the bride a 8" anniversary cake in trade for pictures of their cake. This is how we build our portfolio. They don't have to be photog. Quality just any pictures. We have done this for years now and have had great sucess. We see them on their anniversary(usually will order a larger cake and credit the 8") Then the baby shower,baptism,1st birthday etc. Its the one part of the business I really enjoy, when we can watch families start and grow. Its a great way to build tradition. Last week we did our annual birthday cake for 9 yr old twins. One of our first brides.We make a big deal with the kids, let them order their own cake, and then mom will change it later.
yr old wedding cake: Sophie tells a story when a bride called after a yr and said we were wrong , her lemon cake tasted great, and even after 2 moves. She had ammaretto!


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I don't price the stuff at work, but it is based on price per cake size. Our standard 10" cakes is 16-18 portions ---which is pretty large(cake is 4" tall) and sells for $45. For both wedding and party cakes, I do 3 layers cake and 3 filling(except carrot which I do 4 layers cake and daquoise layers). I usually don't base serving portions on Wilton books and such because the portion size is too small.

Jeff, I'd actuaaly be interested in that formula for figuring out portions using pi, maybe you can ask your son to explain?


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## danno (Mar 12, 2001)

maybe there is a way in all this for some repete buisness. instead of the bride saving the top cake for a year, have her come back in a year so you can sell her a fresh 1 year anniversary cake. just a thought
Danno


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