# Home Chef needs advice on Knives



## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Recently I decided to upgrade the knives we use at home to something that should work well and last. We have neen using a wolfgang puck set that though it looks good has not been a great performer even from day one. I was told someone we know who loves to cook loves her "cutco" knifes (turned out to be Chicago Cultery they owned). Anyways having a local Cutco store we stopped in and got the usual demonstration and left with table knife set and one Santoku 5" knife that the household chef (my GF) liked best. The table kinves are their so Double D edge whereas the Santoku is a straight edge.

So far we like the warranty, the feel in hand of the handle, the idea we can have them sharpened by the factory and possibly the local store (factory is 2 1/2 hours away driving). On the other hand I'm not too happy with the cost which seems high, the handles are kind of blah looking, the idea there maybe much better knives at the same or lower cost.

I decided to start doing some research and now my head is spinning with all the information. The things I found to be said over and over again are that Cutco is sold door to door and that for the cost of Cutco knives there are better products and some of them cost less. That's where I'm hoping everyone here can help me figure out if Cutco is the product for us or if there is something else we should think of instead. 

I know this forum is more towards the professional side of things but if anyone can help two amateur household chefs pick the right product that well perform well, last a long time without high maintenance demands that would be appreciated.

EDIT - Forgot to add she really likes the Santoku style knife in the petite size range and we are looking for a really good bread knife too.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

One of the most important set of criteria for anyone choosing a new knife or new knives is how they're going to integrate the knives into their sharpening regimen. It's a sad fact of life that all culinary knives need regular sharpening -- some more than others. Factory sharpening is not a great solution for most people because of the turn around time.

Cutco knives have some strong supportes; but if you want to use an actually sharp knife (as opposed to something more like a saw) they aren't very good; especially not for their price. 

Their biggest problem is the steel alloy used to make the blades. It's 440A, which was never very good, hasn't got any better, and over the years has been superceded by many superior alloys. The best things you can stay about 440A is that it's very stain resistant and it isn't as bad as some other alloys -- 420J2, for instance. 

At any rate, 440A doesn't take a great edge under the best of circumstances, and loses it easily.

As you know Cutco makes knives with two different edge geometries. One is a "never needs sharpening" serrated they call "Double D." The other is a regular smooth edge. 

The Double D edges will function for a long time before needing sharpening -- but never very well. You can't get really clean cuts with it, and it's difficult to cut fine as well. The regular smooth edges, like the one on our GF's santoku, dull very quickly compared to those on knives made from better blade alloys. 

Forschner's Rosewood and Fibrox lines represent a big step up in quality compared to Cutco; and I believe they're less expensive to boot. There are much better knives than the Forschners, but they're considerably more expensive.

If you want to discuss the Forschners, or options in a different price range; or have any other questions let us know. There are several very knowledgeable people on CT.

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the quick response.

To answer your questions to the best of my ability

Price - As you know we already purchased Cutco knives which from what I have seen at Amazon are around the same price as some leading European and Asian products. Would I like to spend less, sure but if spending more means I get a great performing product that will last a very long time I'm willing to do it.

Sharpening - I haven't done this and would need guidance in where to start and what equipment is best. I have read enough to know that this depends on what type of knife is being sharpened. I would hope I wouldn't have to sharpen more than once/twice a year.

The table knives I haven't even tested yet but they seem like nice products but if there is something that cuts as well/better and will last a long time I'd be interested.

Style/Type of kitchen knives - The main chef really likes the feel/design of the Santoku knives and being a petite person likes the knife in the petite size of 5-6 1/2 range. Also we would really like a top quality bread knife.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Here's a "quality test" for you to take:

Take a regular potato, a large-ish one, and take your knife and cut in half lengthwise.

Did the knife wriggle or squirm (bend or flex) when cutting the potato?

If it did, it didn't pass the "Quality test"


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I have some *utco's that were a gift. My wife likes them. About all I can say for them is that they are good about replacing them when they die. They cost 5-7x more than they should as they are lower in quality than forschner, Sani-safe etc. The biggest reason I can see for an average home owner to buy them is free sharpening. Shun does that as well and you can buy a much higher quality Shun for the same price. I'm not a big Shun fan either but even their base lines are vastly better than *utco.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you cook at home four or more times a week, in order to maintain your go to chef's knife (or santoku, or gyuto) as very sharp or better, it's going to need about six actual sharpenings (as opposed to "touch ups) a year -- and to be "profiled," about once a year. 

If you can settle for barely sharp, you can cut that down to about four sharpenings. Most people never used a knife sharper than barely sharp. Twice a year by a professional sharpener and "touch-ups" on a steel, or a "V" stick system like a Sharpmaker or a "Crockstick," means your knives will be fairly dull about half the year. You mentioned suiting the sharpening method to the knife, and there's a lot of truth to that. Many very expensive knives -- especially those manufactured in Japan -- won't do their best unless taken to a moderately high degree of polish. And polishing is something very few budget "systems" do. 

By and large, Japanese manufactured western style knives (the shapes you're used to -- including santoku, btw), can be made much sharper and stay sharper longer with a better sharpener but less other maintenance than similarly priced European knives. The Euros (and Americans) take maintenance -- usually in the form of steeling.

There are a few Japanese stainless lines I usually recommend in the Cutco price range (fairly expensive, by the way). Chief among them are MAC Pro; and, if you can live with a little bit of flex, Masamoto VG. 

It's easy to overemphasize the practical superiority of a good Japanese knife compared to a good German -- like Wusthof, F. Dick, Messermeister, or Henckels; or a German type like Lamson Sharp (made in America). While most of the nuances fall in favor of the Japanese, you can get a lifetime of great performance from a German knife; and in addition the Germans are manufactured to very high standards of fit and finish, and almost all of them have very good to excellent handles to boot. Their biggest weaknesses are that they're relatively heavy, the "go to" chef's knives have a relatively clumsty profile; and they're all made from less-than-stellar alloys -- either X50CrMoV, or something very much like it. 

Additionally, there are some relatively value-priced knives that bring plenty of performance along with them; these include Forschner Rosewood and Fibrox and the better Dexters to name three. FWIW, the Forschners are X50CrMoV as well.

There's no one best knife brand, and I don't know of anyone who can point to any one in particular and say "this is the one your wife should use," at least not anyone who knows much about knives and has her best interests at heart. Also, there's no good reason to go to a lot of trouble or expense choosing the very finest knife of some profile you'll only seldom use. The Santoku/ Chef's/ Gyuto is a knife worth investing in. If you're buying a petty instead of a parer, so is that. And, if you use a slicer a lot, that is too. You can buy good parers and bread knives relatively inexpensively. 

At this stage, my thoughts about the "go to" knife are:

1. You can get away with using a fairly inexpensive and easy sharpening system and still get a lot out of Forschners, so that would be one recommendation. I prefer the Rosewood handles to the Fibrox.

2. Everyone who tries MAC Pro loves it. In addition, they have a great US presence and an excellent warranty. If you're willing to invest the money and/or time in a good sharpener I have no doubt you will too. 

3. A good, German type knife could be perfect for you. 

4. If your wife does 97% of the cooking and she likes her santoku, figure out a way to keep it sharp without sending it out of the house 3 weeks a year and be happy. Kinves are nice, but a happy wife trumps. 

Anything you can do to narrow down your selections would help me help you. 

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm not really for/against Cutco but once I started checking out what else is out there it seemed like I might of spent differently. Last night stopped at a Bed Bath and Beyond to check out the German products. Liked some of the Henckels and Wusthof. Overall both seemed nice though we did not like the Grand Prix handle in the Wusthof. Wish they would of had the Ikon line to try out also since it seems it would be preferable.

Main Knife - we want a good knife for veggies and meat. The Cutco santoku seems to fit this bill and she really likes the feel/shape of the santoku style.

Bread Knife - Currently what we have for bread/pastry is about as good as a butter knife just bigger.

From reading I take it a smaller knife is also desirable. 

Table/Steak knives - The cutco look better than the run of the mill cheaper knives but willing to take suggestions.

I don't really care if the main kitchen knives match or not since what really matters is how well they perform. I do want knives that if someone doesn't get to them right away still will clean up and look good. Also I don't mind sharpening manually but if there is an easier way that might be nice.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Henckels and Wusthof regular "classic" handles are very good for almost everyone. Ikon is nice, but expensive. Ikon uses the same steel as Wusthof's other forged lines, but ground to a 15* angle, and, in the case of some shapes, profiled to French/Japanese shapes.

You can get all the Ikon advances, but with a "Classic" handle in the (discontinued) Le Cordon Bleu line. You can still find some NOS LCB.

At or anywhere near the Cutco price thare are knives made of much better steel.

The pick of the litter in bread knives is the MAC 10.5" Superior Bread/Roast. But it's expensive; right around $100. For bread/pastry a $25 Forschner is awfully good.

Not only desirable, but safer for a lot of tasks. You definitely want something in the 3" - 6" range. A knife called a "petty" is a very hot trend with pros right now. It's really just a long, regular style (_couteau office_) paring knife -- or you might think of it as a "utility" knife with a smooth edge. Whether or not you want one instead of a parer, a parer or both depends on your own style. There's no right or wrong.

Cutcos are fine steak knives; but they're very, very expensive compared to other attractive serrated knives.

Good thought.

Stainless for you then.

"Manual" can mean a lot of things. One is freehand sharpening on whetstones. You can get three (coarse -- 400, medium -- 1000, fine -- 3000) Naniwa SS for around $100.

It will take you about 20 - 40 kinves to learn to use them well. Personally, I've sharpened thousands and am still learning new things and still improving. After you start getting the hang of it, you might want to add an ultra-fine polishing stone like a 10000# if you've got really good knives.

Still manual, an Apex Edge Pro kits run from a little less than $150 to more than $250 depending on the kit. Better knives call for a higher polish and a better kit. Outside of the price, the Edge Pro is a bit of a pain to take down and store.

2 stage Chef's Choice machines cost under $100, while 3 stages will set you back more than $100. These are the easiest to learn and the most convenient to use. They have their limitations, but if you're intimidated in any way by the other systems -- they're the way to go. FWIW, they make different models for "Asian" and "European" knives. If you choose Chef's Choice, you'll need to get the right model for kit.

I've been freehanding for more than 45 years; and have used many if not most of the other major systems during that time -- sometimes as the primary sharpening method. I'm starting to think it doesn't make much sense for a beginner to learn to freehand if (s)he can afford the Edge Pro -- partly based on the availability of newer, and better abrasives over the past year or so. I used a Chef's Choice for almost a year when my stones were "lost," and still think they're great.

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok I believe I found the MAC superior bread knife in the $70.00 dollar range a few places, which I don't mind spending if it's going to perform and last.

As to the steak/table Knives - Would like to see some recomendations serrated and straight blade.

Santoku style knife, I read the Mac knives are good but not sure about Pro/Superior. Anything else I should look at?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"Cutcos are fine steak knives; but they're very, very expensive compared to other attractive serrated knives"

I have these and they are DD edge which means there is no way to sharpen them other than sending them in. They aren't half bad but the hanldles are cheap plastic. They run $112 for four. The Viking or Cusinart sets in places like Bed Bath & beyond are far better and about 1/4 the price.


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## theunknowncook (Dec 17, 2009)

Briant73:
I do not recommend *Cutco* cutlery. They are owned by *Alcas Corp*. They are overrated and overpriced! Their sister-company, Ka-Bar, sells the *Union Cut.Co.* and *Dog's Head* sets, which resemble the *MAC Professional Series*. Neither do I recommend *Chicago Cutlery*, as the company became defunct in the 1990s, and the brand-name is now owned by *World Kitchen*, and production has been outsourced to China ever since.
I personally own the *LamsonSharp PRO* cutlery line. However, you might want to consider their *Stamped* cutlery line, since it would be less expensive, and lighter than forged cutlery. Nonetheless, they do offer a FREE *Sharp For Life* *Program* for their *Forged* knives. They have a *Factory Outlet Store*. The lowest prices that I have found online, is at: *Cookware*.
I know that it seems to be a daunting task, to be shopping for kitchen cutlery, as there are a myriad of brands to choose from, but nevermind the brands which others tell you to buy. Buy what you can afford, and like to use, on a daily basis.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Just curious, but I'm wondering in which ways you think the Ka-Bars "resemble" MAC Pro. To my mind, if only because the alloys and ergonomics are so different, they're not similar enough for a meaningful comparsion. Not seeking to quarrel, just trying to find out what you're thinking.

BDL


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## behindtheknife (Dec 30, 2009)

For advice on sharpening, we just did a whole video series on Japanese vs. German knives and how to sharpen them both. 

Go to behindtheknife.com and view the posts from December 15th through the 18th. Lots of good info.

Lisa Rogak


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the link to the sharpening page.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

So here is what we currently have 
Wolfgang puck knive set (won't even bother saying much other than it does look nice)
Cutco 5" Santoku Knife Santoku Knives by CUTCO Cutlery
Cutco 8 knife table knife set 8-Pc. Table Knife Set In Gift Box by CUTCO Cutlery

Here are the knives I have been looking at through recomendations from people on the internet and this forum
Wusthof Classic Ikon Wuesthof - CLASSIC IKON
Wusthof Classic Wuesthof - CLASSIC 
I actually found the classic Ikon cheaper some places than the regular Classic line by about 30 bucks or more.

Mac Knife pro Santoku MAC Knife Inc. USA
Mac Knife superior bread MAC Knife Inc. USA


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I forgot to add in my last post some questions about my choices.

From reading MAC knives seem highly recommended. Wusthof is a decent knife with a good warranty but with pricing the same would you go for MAC?

I see seperate lines of MAC knives, superior and pro seem to be the usual recomended. Would you recomend the PRO over the Superior for Santoku? 

How does MAC steel/handle hold up as far as appearance/handle considering they will be hand washed but may sit before cleaning? Will they withstand someone leaving them in a sink filled with water on occasion? I wish I could say the knives would be taken care of meticulousy and usually they would but sometimes they may not be.

Look forward to any recomendations people can give!


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## pensacola tiger (Sep 27, 2009)

From a purely safety standpoint, knives should *never* be left in a sink full of water. You may be able to get away with this with a dull knife, but you are inviting a trip to the emergency room if you do this with a sharp knife, whether it is a MAC, Wusthof or any other brand.


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

I have a MAC Pro chefs knife and cannot recommend it enough. It is far and away better than any German (Henkels or Wusthof) knife that I have used.

That being said, you really do need to maintain it, but this goes for any knife. You should not put your knife in the sink, whether or not it is filled with water. Sinks are made of hard metal and will easily mess up the edge on your knife. It would be probably be better to leave the knife on the board uncleaned for a little rather than leave it in a sink of water.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Whoops that should of said left in a sink with other dishes/cultery not full of water. I should of said left in the sink waiting to be washed. Personally I rather they sat on the counter till their turn came up. I don't do the dishwashing usually and was just thinking of extremes that may happen.


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

Would it survive? Yes. Would it probably have been dulled or even chipped? Yes, but that goes for all cutlery. Would you be risking slicing deep into your finger when you reached into the sink? Yes.

I'd keep all knives out of the sink.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The MAC will hold up to that sort of treatment about as well as any other good knife. Not very well. 

If it happens once in a while, okay. But it's not something you want to do often and will make it so the blade scratches and force you to sharpen more frequently. The pakka wood handles are very stable, almost but not quite as stable as POM (the kind of plastic on Wusthof Classic, Togiharu and a number of other knives). 

MAC doesn't say which knife steel they use, but judging from their statements about the alloys used in their various lines, which are very similar to statements made by the Takefu Steel company -- especially regarding relative amounts of molybdenum and tungsten. It appears they're all variants of Takefu V-Gold stainless. An educated guess based on those statements and on experience with other knives made from various Takefu steels would have the Superiors as VG-2, the Pros as probably VG-5, and the Ultimates as probably VG-8. 

As you may remember, the Wusthofs are made with X50CrMoV15. As high carbons go, it's a very low carbon; and it simply cannot compare with the ultimate sharpness and edge holding qualities of any of the V-Golds -- especially VG-5 (Pro) and VG-8 (Ultimate), or whatever the heck MAC uses. 

MAC Pros are much stiffer than MAC Superiors, and easier to sharpen as well. 

If you're looking for a very light knife, the Superiors are nice -- and they'll simplify your sharpening life quite a bit because the sharpen pretty well on the inexpensive and easy to use MAC Rollsharp. If Pete McCracken is reading, he can testify. Otherwise you might PM him.

In addition, the Superior line has a few ultra high-performance profiles, like the 10.5" bread/roast, and the "boning" knives. Those two are as good as any knife of their type at or anywhere near their price. 

The Pros are better knives all around, and worth the extra price. They are a bit heavier than the Supreriors, but no heavier than other Japanese knives with western handles and bolsters -- and are a lot lighter than German knives. 

If you want to know pretty much everything you need to know about how good a MAC Pro is, you can feel pazzo's enthusiasm pulsing through the screen.

Persnally, I don't care for santouks at all, haven't used a MAC santoku in either line, and so can't comment on them specifically. But, if it were my choice, I'd certainly go with a MAC Pro over a MAC Superior or a Wusthof of any flavor.

There are other, similarly priced, Japanese knives which compete pretty evenly with the MAC Pro for performance and F&F, but none of them have the kind of warranty or US support MAC does. 

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

In response to BDL's comment, I use MACs exclusively in my kitchen and maintain them with a Fisker Roll-Sharp (I know, HORRORS!).

My original knife was purchased in 2000 and still "shaves", even when making "carrot butterflies", "tomato roses", etc.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I want to thank everyone here on this board for their comments. 

I think I'm going to take the plunge on the MAC knives. I now would like futher recomendations but here is what I am thinking

MAC Santoku PRO MSK-65
MAC Superior bread knife SB-105
Not sure what for a third knife to go with these, any ideas?

Now I'm thinking about buying some type of easy to use sharpener. I see their are roll-sharps and electric sharpeners like the Chefs Choice but not sure what model I should go for (315, 316 1520 vx15?)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Might as well go whole hog on MAC Pro, and go with either the 3.25" paring or 5" utility -- whichever your wife thinks would be best for peeling. Considering she's getting a santoku, short enough to be a "utility" in itself, the parer (PKF-30) would probably be a better partner.

Of the Chef's Choice options, the Model 15 (XV) is definitely the best choice. 

BDL


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

I was going to suggest the same thing, but BDL beat me to it. Since you're going with a short santoku and it's likely that your wife won't want anything larger, you would probably want to go with a paring knife. The MAC Pro paring knife would do fantastically or you could look into something cheaper if you want to save some money there.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I took the plunge and ordered the Mac Pro Santuko and 3 1/4 Pair knives along with the Superior bread knife.

I am actually thinking of keeping the cutco table knives since they were a special promotion price that doesn't seem too far out of line with other sets I have looked over.

As to the sharpening device I will check out the vx15 chef's choice and whatever else anyone recommends.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The Edge Pro Apex kit 2 is more expensive than a Chef's Choice, light years less convenient, and it will be "the boy's" job; but you're knives will be much sharper if you can discipline yourself to use it regularly. It's got a learning curve, but it's very shallow. There's also a little bit of maintenance associated with it. You'll be good at it in no time.

The third good alternative is to learn freehand sharpening on waterstones. That's got a relatively steep learning cure. It will take you about 20 knives before you start developing any sort of real competence, before that it's kind of hit or miss. You can start fairly inexpensively, and build your kit as you learn; jump in and start with a good, complete set; or kind of split the differences.

The other alternatives, "V" sticks, slot pull-throughs, Chantrys, Warthogs, etc., for one reason or another aren't nearly as appropriate for your knives and just plain not as good. 

I'm a freehand sharpener; have been one forever; am good at it; own two complete sets of stones; like to post, blog and write about freehanding; and so on. But given the advances in the sharpening stones which have become available for the Edge Pro I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it for anyone who isn't a hobbyist to learn to freehand. If my son or daughter asked, I'd tell him or her to get an Edge Pro. In your case, Kit 2 would do you proud for awhile -- and if you like you can add a 10K polishing stone later. 

With the encomium for the EP behind us, I do like the Chef's Choice quite a bit for people who, for one reason or another, won't freehand or use an EP. It's really more about you than anything else. If your lazy get a CC. If you want your wife to be able to do it, get a CC. If you're picky and want to do it yourself, get an EP.

You can do better on steak knives than Cutco -- even on sale. We have two sets of steak knives, one of them actually Cutco which I bought from my nephew when he repped for them in college. There's nothing at all wrong with them, they cut steak and stay sharp for quite awhile. They're overpriced compared to what else is available -- but we're not that picky about our steak knives.

BDL


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## adaml (Sep 23, 2009)

Cannot second this enough. A few weeks ago I lent my utility knife to the dishwasher so that he could help with prep. He knows not to run any knives through the machine, but he put the knife in the sink so he could clean it. Forgot about it, walked away. 



Long story short: 30 minutes later, we found him pale and green bleeding like a pig into the staff bathroom sink, 13 stitches on the back of his hand.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I think when the knives come in I'll make sure to give a few tips on the best way to keep them and also take care of them to avoid any accidents.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Again thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_Sharpeners_:

Between the EP and the CC, the EP will get your knives sharper and is a more flexible system.

Between the CC Model 15 XV and Model 1520, the 15 is a three slot system for 15* knives like your new MACs. The 1520 is an effort by Edgepro (they make CC) to cobble together, a two slot 15* with a two slot 20* sharpener. If all you're doing is 15* degree knives, the Model 15 is significantly better.

If you're doing mostly 15* knives, and once-in-awhile the odd 20* blade, I'd suggest getting a Model 15 and something decent but cheap for the 20* or even an inexpensive two slot 20* CC.

Why? Because the 15 shapes, sharpens and polish/hones at more appropriate grits.

_Steak Knives_:

In a couple of weeks you'll be laughing about the steak knives. You're currently in the grips of an obsession where you want to get it all RIGHT. Relax. No biggie. Unless you're a beyond-redemption knife collector, your steak knives won't matter that much.

In a universe where you lived by yourself, it would be an economic decision that was made along the lines of how much trouble and expense it would be to replace the Cutcos. But in this universe, if your wife is happy with the Cutcos, be happy too. If she want's something else, replace them.

Something else to consider is the old Yiddish proverb: _Where there's a sharp knife, a tough steak is sure to follow_.

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

As for the Steak/Table Knives she is happy with the cutco so far and I think they'll work out fine but since it's the holidays we haven't been eating much of anything at home that requires a table knife. 

I am going to think about the sharpening system to get but I agree that it does make sense to get the 15vx (vx15?) if our knives are mainly 15degree and I see that it can take a regular 20degree knife and make it 15 if desired. Right now going to sit back and wait until I get the knives and try them out before buying anything else.

Again very appreciative of everyone's advice and suggestions, little did I know how many variables other than shape/size are in selecting a good kitchen knive set.


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

Not all knives can hold a 15* edge and I'm also not certain how well a CC would do with reprofiling an edge from 20* to 15*.

I have actually used Cutco steak knives and found them perfectly fine. Unless you're looking for a non-serrated steak knife, I can't imagine bothering to look for new ones.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Just remember you can not sharpen the Cutco DD steak knives. You have to send them in for sharpening and they get dull fairly quick. If you can return them you can buy a nicer set for a fraction of the price that you can maintain at home.
If not then they work fine. Mine were a gift 12(?) years ago. The biggest down side is that you hit a bone or the plate the blades will chip very easy. Cutco is good about replacing them but you need to watch for that especially towards the tip. I can't see getting a good set of knives not paying attention to your steak knives. Give it some thought as you will have them for a lot of years especially at this price point. One other tip. When you send them back (and you will) make sure you wrap them well or save the cardboard blade protectors that they come with. The PO recognizes the Cutco name so don't be surprised if they question you about it.
Having said all of that my wife likes the Cutcos.  :lol:


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

Oh, I agree. If you can return them without much cost to you, I'd do it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Right about the 15* angle. Some knives just collapse. Depending on what (s)he has and wants to keep, a prospective CC purchaser with mostly 15* knives, might want a second sharepening system, or even a second CC for those 20* knives. For that purchaser IMO (obviously), there's enough reason to prefer the Model 15 for the 15* knives over the 1520 to make a second sharpener worthwhile. Usually the 20* knives are reserved for rough work, and so nothing too fine (or expensive) is necessary.

All this adaptability stuff, if it's needed, argues for highly adapatable systems. Freehanding on stones is the most adaptable of all; and the EP is darn near as good.

CCs are diamond sharpeners. The coarse slot on most of them can reprofile darn near anything. Edgecraft has a chart on their website so prospective purchasers can preview which model performs which functions. http://www.chefschoice.com/docfiles/qrfasian.pdf.

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm open to recomendation of steak/table knives.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

While not an absolute this past year America's Test Kitchen (Cooks illustrated) tested steak knives. The #1 pick was for the wood handled forschners which are about the same price as the Cutco. These are straight edge so you can sharpen them and they come in round or pointed tip versions. I'll leave a link.
Their second choice was for cuisinart which you can find at bed bath & beyond for around $40 - 45 for a set of four. I've seen these at Lowes as well. Here I get a BB&B coupon in the mail weekly. You may also want to look at the Messermeister if you are shopping on line or at CKTG.
The Shuns are also worth looking at but a bit more $. The standard line can be had for around $60 each off Amazon. The nice thing about the Shun is that you can sharpen it your self or send it in for free sharpening so you really have the best of both worlds but they are pricey.
All of these are far nicer than the Cutco. I'm not a big Shun fan but I really do like their steak knives. Another bonus with Shun is that you should be able to see them at a local store before you order if you want to depending on where you live.

Amazon.com: Victorinox 4-3/4-Inch Straight-Edge Pointed-Tip Steak Knife, Set of 6, Rosewood Handles: Home & Garden


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I got the three knives today (fast shipping!) and have to say so far the results are mixed.

The Santoku side handles are so misaligned that both sides top and bottom the metal in the middle bites/scrapes the hand and fingers when just holding it.

The Bread knife is slightly misaligned with the metal piece that it's noticeable but no where as bad as the santoku.

The pairing knife handle is a-ok.

I emailed the vendor since to me the Santoku in it's current condition is unacceptable, the bread knife I'm debating. I am hoping the vendor can help without too much inconvenience to us. (Update I went straight to Mac US and they are wanting to make things right).

Update -
I went over the knives again and the pairing knife seems just fine, the handle fits without any alignment issues.

The Mac pro Santoku on one side it's easy to feel the rivets sticking out, the metal on both sides top/bottom is easily felt. 

The Mac superior bread knife one side the handle seems to be too short but it feels better than the santoku.

I know these handles are wood but they have been inside in 68-70 degree rooms since noon today (it's now 6:30pm eastern) so doubt they are going to expand overnight but who knows. I read somewhere I should soak them but rather not since they are brand new.

Edit 2 - I don't think I am best describing this but the wood on either side of the metal is not aligned with the metal part in the middle which causes almost a scraping on the skin where you can feel the metal on bare skin on either side both top and bottom with the Santoku and somewhat on the Bread knife. Also on them the rivets are sticking out somewhat from the wood to where it scrapes also.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Very sorry to hear that two out of three knives had handle issues. That shouldn't happen at all; and certainly not with two out of three blades. 

Call MAC USA before doing anything else. It may not help, but it's certainly not going to make it any worse. 

Regarding the vendor, you shouldn't have to pay a "restock" fee for defective merchandise. And on that basis, most vendors take responsibility for at least half the postage. Afterall, you paid the postage for a good knife and never got it. They still owe you.

BDL


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the encouraging words. I will let MAC USA know about my issues and see what they say.

I took out the bit about the vendor since I went straight to MAC so they never enterred the picture. They did ship the product fast and the packaging was fine.

Update - I called Mac Knife and they are sending me replacements and agree what I described is not right. I will email my vendor and tell them I have taken care of the issue and thankfully don't have to involve them. Very friendly customer service and helpful. I always like it when a company admits it's product may not be perfect and are willing to make it right.

So thanks BDL for the suggestions. Hopefully by next week we have some great knives added to our kitchen.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I presume MAC USA is NOT the vendor, correct?

Harold Arimoto (sp) is VERY consciencious and I would be totally surprised if he shipped knive(s) that were not in first class condition.

I've been a MAC distrbutor since, oh, 2001-2002 and never have had such problems.

If you need it, here is the contact info:

MAC Knife Inc. USA MAC Knife, Inc.

9624 Kiefer Blvd. #1
Sacramento, CA 95827-3822
U.S.A.
phone: MAC-Knife (888-622-5643)
fax: 916-854-9974

email: [email protected]
MAC Knife Inc. USA


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## pazzo (Sep 10, 2009)

Wow, that's a bummer. I sure hope they will fix their mistakes and send you new knives to replace your poorly constructed ones.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Speaking to MAC support was actually pleasant considering the reason I had to call them for. They listened as I explained the issues with the handles, agreed that wasn't right and asked for the opportunity to make things right. Hopefully by next week I'll be able to report that all my MAC knives are just great. I also sent the vendor a follow up email to let them know what I decided to do. Though I'm disappointed two knives had issues I was happy with the prompt delivery of the products.

While I was on the phone with MAC customer service I explained how I'm a novice to sharpening and am unsure if I should go with stone/rod, edge pro, or the chef's choice electric sharpener for my new knives. He felt the MAC sharpening product was the best way to go for my needs and skill level. Also using the MAC sharpener on their knives will make warranty claims easier if I ever have an issue in the future. I want to stress that it was never even alluded to that a warranty issue could be made void if a different sharpening system is used just that using the MAC system should assure that the there are no issues with the claim. Saying all that I could see where someone new to stones or with an electric sharpener does serious damage to their knives if they aren't careful.

Doing my research I read how MAC knives performed very well, felt good to use, help up, and have good customer support. For all those reasons I made my decision to purchase them and have to say the customer support was very good though I rather not have had to use it so soon.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You got that right. "Good customer support," is like a boxer being told, "good beard." On the one hand, it's not really what you're hoping to hear; but on the other, it's a heckuva lot better than, "glass jaw."

Got my fingers crossed for you,
BDL


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hope all goes well!

dan


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I have heard glass jaw before but never the "good beard". 

I decided to keep the small pkf-30 which I tested out tonight on some potato slices. I liked the way it worked but accidentally touched blade to finger in my excitement. No cut resulted which shocked me considering the blade touched directly to my finger (though not a lot of force). I was very relieved no cut happened but also surprised considering how sharp these knives are supposed to be. Since I rather not repeat that again can anyone tell me a safe way to check that the knife is as sharp as it should be? This is the 3 1/4 paring knife.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You could test it by cutting some paper. Or, you could try the "bic" test -- but I doubt that would be very revealing.

Generally, Japanese knives do not come extremely sharp OOTB, and often come barely sharpened at all. MAC is a bit of an exception in that they do come competently profiled, if not extremely sharp. MAC may even do it on purpose as a safety measure for people who are first removing the knife from the box.

It's not uncommon for MACs and knives like them, that is made from a "tough" alloy, to take more than one sharpening before they really start putting out their best. Sometimes you have to get rid of all the "old" steel; and with any knife there's always the possibility of getting a carbide crystal in the edge at an awkward angle. 

Fortunately, the Pro series is easy to sharpen.

You'll eventually get them sharper; and perhaps much sharper. Sharpening can be a very rewarding journey in itself. I seldom either mind or enjoy the task itself, but certainly like having sharp knives. 

BDL


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## tillster (Jan 22, 2007)

@ Briant

Your story sounds a little familiar

I had the same problem last year, and had some help from this forum 

I initially contacted Harald @ Mac who advised me (see above thread) to soak them in water. He was very helpful and friendly but it neither solvevd the issue of the fit, nor my feeling that it wasn't 'right' for a knife of that cost to require a soak.

Anyway, I bought the knives in London. The vendor was less than happy that they were returned but replaced them anyway. (and now refuses my custom as I am apparently a troublemaker)

I'm happy to hear that you are having the knives replaced and look forward to hearing how you get on. Certainly, you won't be dissapointed when they arrive (when hopefully the handles are spot-on.)


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the comments and I hope everything is right when it comes, MAC support over the phone has been great to deal with, you can tell they believe in their product and want to make things right. I actually read your thread when doing research on MAC knives, didn't you also have another issue with chipping or was that someone else?


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## tillster (Jan 22, 2007)

Yeah, that was also me with the chipping, but had little to do with the knife, and plenty to do with me being a klutz

ATB, Craig


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## palp (Jan 7, 2010)

BDL, with respect to the CC 15 XV, would one still need to use a steel or does the sharpener actually take care of that stage as well?

Thx for all the info you are providing in these threads.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

According to Edgecraft, the people who make Chef's Choice, you don't need a steel with the 15. It profiles, sharpens, hones and polishes. 

Personally, I'd still use a steel. 

But, be aware that it requires a little bit of skill to use one. If you slam the knife against it as fast as possible -- like Ramsay for instance -- you're likely to do far more harm than good.

Also, it's worth repeating the Chef's Choice recommendation is not my way of saying a Chef's Choice is the best way to sharpen a kitchen knife. 

It's the best for people way for people who, for one reason or another, won't use something better like a good freehand kit, or an EdgePro (or other tool and jig, rod-guide system). A CC gets knives somewhere between sharp and very sharp -- but not extremely sharp; and it's convenient (fun even) to keep them that way without any effort to speak of. The two slot CCs are very good, and the three slot CCs (like the 15) are even better. But good as the 15 is, it's not $350 worth of stones and accessories ($700 for Choseras (?!)), another $150 worth of rod-hones, and the mad skilz to use them. 

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

There is no reason a couple of stones, even Choseras and a flattener should set any one back more than a few hundred dollars. Two stones can carry even a professional cook a long ways. 
Before any one makes a decision to buy a grinder research it well and consider the other (better) options.
Sharpening a knife on a stone is nothing to shy away from. It's not a skill that is overly difficult to learn. 
A grinder is better than no sharpening plan at all but that's about it.
I hope Mac gets those knives replaced quickly. While Mac is a good knife it gets touted a bit too much on this forum. It's not the best by any means in the fit and finish department especially at the price point. Any manufacturer that tells a customer to soak their knives in water so the wood handles will expand knows they have quality control issues.
I sincerely hope it works out in the end.
While Chad Ward is a VERY opinionated guy that I don't always agree with here's a little sharpening primer by him that may help.

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening - eG Forums


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Duck,

At the end of the day, we're going to end up agreeing to disagree on both the Chef's Choice and MAC, but I thought I'd expand on the sharpening aspects some.

I don't recommend a Chef's Choice electric (which, by the way, isn't a "grinder" except in the way that all sharpening could be termed "grinding") because it sharpens better than a good sharpener using good stones or a good tool and jig system could or would; or, because it's less expensive.

I'm recommending it because it's effective AND so easy to learn and use, it gets used as often as it should. 

Not everyone wants to master the skill of freehanding, or wants the PITA of an Edge Pro Kit 3. The great thing about Chef's Choice machines is that they get used. The bad thing about stones and Edge Pros is that not everyone wants to deal with the extra mishegas to get a knife that's a little bit sharper. 

You do. I do. But not everyone does.

As to the cost, it is what it is. A model 15 goes for around $150, including shipping, for instance at Pleasant Hill and Cutlery and More.

You can certainly buy three decent suraces of waterstone, which, in skilled hands, will take an edge sharper than a Chef's Choice for less than $50. While an excellent, and complete set of 10mm Naniwa SS (400, 1000, 3000, 8000) is around $165 at Sharpening Supplies. Or, you culd spend about $150 for a set of two combi Norton waterstones including a flattener, also at Sharpening Supplies. 

Naniwa Chosera series are another matter. A minimal three stone -- 400#, 1000# and 5000# -- is well over $300 at retail for the stones alone. Throw in a cheap holder for $30, and a DMT 8XC (not even an XXC) to flatten, and you're looking at pretty close to $400 retail, well over $300 street (Chefs Knives to Go). 

Choseras are great stones no doubt, combining convenience (even though they're not splash and go) with tons of speed and an excellent level of polish at a given grit. They have terriffic feel, too. 

But in this man's opinion aren't worth the ridiculous premium for what they do better. 

One could certainly put together a set which, "feel" aside, performs as well or better at every grit level for substantially less. E.g., Beston 500, Bester 1200, Naniwa SS 3000, Naniwa Super Polish 8000 (great stone!) runs under $300 retail, while the equivalent Chosera set of 400, 1000, 3000, 10000 goes for around $600 retail -- not including the $80 DMT 8XXC which seems essential to most people for flattening Choseras (See CK2Go, again).

2 (more) cents,
BDL


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

BDL,

Is the Model 15 the one you recommend for MACs?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Pete,

Sure, if you can afford it. It's Edgecraft's only three slot, all 15*, and it combines all four functions: profile/repair; sharpen; hone (sharpen and hone are the same slot); and strop. The strop function is a VGT, it's got the finest finish -- closest to what a MAC can handle -- although MACs can actually handle more. 

And as you know (but for the benefit of other readers), the finer the finish the more the knife tends to glide in the cut.

Basically, it's a model 130 but at 15*. 

That's the generic. I'm not sure how it would work for you in a restaurant kitchen. That might be too much much, as they stones do wear out after what would be several years in a home kitchen, but might be irritatingly short in a pro. It's not the easiest thing in the world to clean either. Not a big deal if it only needs cleaning every eighteen months; but more of an issue if it's every six week.

You'd have to ask them.

BDL


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for the rapid response.

Now, since 2000, I've ONLY used a RollSharp ( I know, I KNOW) and my Pro and Superior knives still seem to "shave" when I need them to, especially for tomato roses, carrot "butterflies", "zucchini cups", "apple birds, etc.".

Will a Chef's Choice 15 give me a better experience than the RollSharp?

If knives are clean "before" sharpening, what is your expectation on cleaning requirements?

I'm not "dissatisfied" with the RollSharp, just wondering whether the Chef's Choice will give me an improved edge?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

*"Naniwa Chosera series are another matter. A minimal three stone -- 400#, 1000# and 5000# -- is well over $300 at retail for the stones alone. Throw in a cheap holder for $30, and a DMT 8XC (not even an XXC) to flatten, and you're looking at pretty close to $400 retail, well over $300 street (Chefs Knives to Go).* "

That's a long ways from $700. :thumb: A 1k and a 3-5k stone will take most users a long ways and will out perform a grinder like the CC even in average hands by a fair margin. You sure don't need a stone holder. A peacock flattener works just ducky and runs $20. Add that to a 1k and a 5k Chosera less the shuck n jive and your out the door with freight at $200 (CKTG). Replace the 5k Chosera with a 5k SS and it drops to $150. However,
there is a big difference in quality between a Chosera and a SS that extends a lot further than feel. You won't clog a Chosera like a SS which can be a RPITA. The SS's edges also crumble easy and they are not of the same construction as the Chosera. While a Chosera is not a "splash and go" (is that REALLY an issue?) it's also not a thirsty stone. When we get to stones over 5k I'm in total agreement with you. The Choseras are expensive and probably not worth the extra expense for most casual users.
My point is that choosing a grinder based on cost alone over stones is not a solid reason. Top quality stones are only a few dollars more and as you noted we could easily set a noob up for less and have better performance than a grinder. Knife sharpening is not difficult and there's no reason to make it that way. IMO there's just no point in discussing stones over 5k in a thread like this because they are beyond the scope of the conversation in both cost and performance. Certainly way beyond the performance of a grinder that starts off with a diamond grinder and in the second stage applies micro-serrations that are not going to be polished out. IMO that's a quick way to ruin a blade on a high end knife. Not to mention ultimately grinders like this
re-profile the blade. The same thing that makes a grinder like this fast is what can damage a knife ...fast. Most of us cringe at the thought of a diamond hone. Look at the top of the CC web site again and see what the company calls their machine......A diamond hone. 
I'm not knocking any home owner for using a CC grinder (or suggesting one). Every one has to go with what works for them.
At the end of the day most of this is subjective. A sharpening system should be matched to the skill of the user AND the knife. Spending top dollar on a knife like a Mac pro etc. and running it through one of the CC grinders will work but you will not have better edge performance from the Mac than you would achieve with a Forschner at 1/5 the price.
A good example of what I mean by subjective is a recent post made about the Hiromoto AS. There are other knife forums where numerous members would be taking serious umbrage to a recent description of that knife. It is just as highly thought of in many circles as the Mac is here....With good reason. 
In the end that's what makes it all interesting.

Chosera Stones, Naniwa Chosera Stones, Chosera Sharpening Stones, Chosera Water Stones


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Pete -- I think a 15 would give you a substantially better edge than a rollsharp -- thinner, truer, better polished -- at least for awhile. Whether a 15 would hold up in your work environment is another question; and one which I don't know enough about to offer an opinion.

Duck -- We're talking apples and oranges on a lot of this; and to the extent we disagree, we disagree. Probably better if we continue this by PM than use up CT's bandwidth. So.. you've got mail.

BDL


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## bleugirl (Jan 9, 2010)

Hello boar d laze,

I am new to this sight and have much left to explore, but in the few days that I have been a part of it, I must say that your insight and advice on knives is very detailed and impressive. The detail and obvious thought that go into your responses is very much appreciated, especially for at home cooks that are truly passionate, but are rather lack the knowledge of knives. I did research for weeks before deciding upon my first high end knife and I confess that the more I learned, the more I felt as though it would take years to master a relatively erudite knowledge of knives, their maintenance and care. Just wanted to let you know that your advice and knowledge are really appreciated.

bleugirl


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Bluegirl,

Thank you. That was soooooo nice. 

You made my morning,
BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

*" We're talking apples and oranges on a lot of this"*

Perhaps, however I think it may well be benificial to those who do understand what the net result of using a grinder like this is on a knife edge Vs other sharpening methods. To that end I think it's a worthy discussion and that's what the forums are here for unless it's just another marketing tool.
The short sweet take for me is that buying a high end knife like a Mac, misono etc and putting it on a grinder is a total waste of $. OTOH for those who do not want to attempt other sharpening methods and want the fastest easiest way to get a knife with a reasonable working edge this is one option. Not the best by any means but certainly an option.
Spending $100+ on a knife that is going to be maintained on a grinder like this won't accomplish much as each knife will only get as sharp as the grinder allows. There is no gain to be had by putting a Mac or other fine knife on one of these grinders Vs a Forschner or sani-safe etc. All will be equally "sharp". The biggest issue I have with these grinders is the way they re-profile the edge. You can see close ups of that on the CC web site. While they advertise this as a plus (it may be for some) for those who want a truely sharp knife and are willing to buy a quality knife to get there this is the wrong direction to go for a sharpening plan. The only thing making a knife seem sharp that is run through a grinder like the CC is the micro-serrations that get ground in to the edge.
While we agree as much as we disagree there's nothing wrong with that and it's to be expected. If that were not the case forums like this, Fred's or In the Kitchen would not exist. 
The only thing I really disagree with here is the notion of using a CC grinder in a professional kitchen where simply put they have no place at all.


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## bleugirl (Jan 9, 2010)

Afternoon, boar d laze,

Thank you for sharing and was happy to hear that it made your morning.

bleugirl


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## bleugirl (Jan 9, 2010)

Hello DuckFat,

Rest assured, I had no intentions of putting the Misono to the grinder. I knew prior to purchasing it that I would send it out to be professionally sharpened properly. 

Thank you for the info.

bleugirl


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Question for "those in the know", are Chef's Choice powered sharpeners really "grinders" or are they more along the lines of "powered rocks"?

IOW, are they equipped with "grinding wheels" or "sharpening ceramics/stones" set at specific angles?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

They're "powered rocks ... set at specific angles." No grinding wheels.

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Semantics. It's a grinder no matter how you slice it. (pun intended)
Those "powdered rocks" are diamond abrasives according to the company that makes them. The exact surface that most here warn every one to keep their edges away from.... with good reason.
Any one suggesting the abrasives in these units is not a disc or wheel has clearly never used one. If it wasn't a grinder with wheels there would be no need to plug the thing in. The fact that these grinders remove enough metal from an edge that the manufacturer recommends taking the thing apart once a year to clean out the metal says a lot more about it being a grinder than we could here. They also leave a lot of wear marks and marring the side of knives that get run through them.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Have you received your replacements yet?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Duck, 

You wrote, It was probably just a typo, but in case it wasn't, the word was "powered," not "powdered." 

Yes, Chef's Choice Sharpeners do use diamond abrasives. Diamond has its purposes. It's not my favorite, but it does a pretty good job for Chef's Choice, not to mention Atoma, DMT, EZ Lap, etc. And for what it's worth, Chef's Choice Diamond sharpening stone is an excellent stone. As good as DMT.

The two things I like least about almost all diamond stones is that they're expensive and they wear out too quickly; but not because they're harmful. Diamond "sharpening steels" on the other hand, are anathema.

Also, It doesn't have wheels. You can take a look at the descpription and pictures of the design at Patent Storm (free to register), the patent no. for the basic sharpening design is US Patent 5,005,319. 

More, Jeeze Duck! I clean and flatten my waterstones after nearly every sharpening; and not only scrub my oilstones with a brass brush after every sharpening session, but run them through the dishwasher almost that often. Don't you? How often do you clean your stones? 

Frankly, I'd clean a home Chef's Choice at least every six months to prevent the stones from clogging. Heck, I clean my honing steel with Comet every few months, too. 

Edgecraft (Chef's Choice's real name) also makes "commerecial sharpeners" with removable sharpening modules for ease of cleaning and maintenance. IIRC, they recommend cleaning those every couple of weeks. 

And, Yes, they will put some scratch on the face just above the edge on knives that get pushed too hard through the slots. They're pretty easy otherwise. And that's another, "Jeeze Duck!" You're telling me you can sharpen a knife on a coarse India or Crystolon without running scratches up the side? Maybe you can, but not many others. 

Finally, in answer to the question of whether a Model 15 would be a good choice for Pete's professional kitchen; I don't know enough to guess out loud. 

It's probably getting boring to read this yet again from me, but to be really darn clear: They aren't the best sharpeners in the world. You can do a better job freehanding with decent skills and an appropriate stone kit, and with an Edge Pro. What they are is fast and easy. The three stage hones with a strop (Model 15, e.g.) actually do a decent amount of polish. No one's going to confuse it with a Naniwa SS 10K or a Kitayama, but it compares favorably with a Norton 4K or hard Arkansas. In other words, very usable. 

BDL

PS. IMO, this topic has been done to death in this thread.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Trying to suggest there is a difference between a grinder wheel and a grinding disc is just silly to the tenth power. The only practical difference is that a disc is thinner. Which simply means it wears out quicker. 
Twice as absurd if your stance is that all sharpening stones are in essence grinders.
A CC is just an electric grinder, nothing more, nothing less.
There are a LOT of products that get labeled "commercial" or "professional" etc and they never see the inside of a true professional or commercial kitchen. 
Instead of commenting further I'll leave a link to a video. Others can see the grinding wheels (discs). Pay close attention to the knife at the beginning and then look how marked up it is about 3/4 of the way through a single sharpening.
I have knives that I have been running on stones for 15 years that aren't that marked up. I'd wager you do as well.
Hey don't get the impression I'm CC grinder "hater"! :lol:
These units have their place and work well for many home cooks.
I just think if this is the sharpening plan you sure don't need (or even want) to spend the big bucks on a knife like a Mac etc. when a Forschner, Dexter, Sani-Safe etc will perform every bit as well and be just as "sharp". 

Using the Chef's Choice Electric Knife Sharpener Video

BTW This conversation of grinders reminds me of how I used to sharpen my knives as a kid. There was an old abandoned hunting camp behind my dads house with a grinding wheel about two feet in diameter mounted in a wood frame. God only knows how old that thing was. You had to peddle the wheel to make it turn while you sharpened your knife.


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## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Thanks for the conversation DuckFat and BDL. Getting opposing information can leave others with some good reading. Thanks 


Within all of this I just wanted to express how easy it's been to learn to sharpen on the EdgePro. I just recently bought my first decent kitchen knife a few months ago. When I was looking for advice I did a lot of reading and posted some questions as well. 

I ended up buying the knife and a month later I got an EdgePro Apex3 kit, as a gift from my wife (what timing  ) If I were to do it again I think I'd reverse the order buying the EdgePro first.

I am using the compliment of EdgePro stones that came with the Apex 3. So I've got a good amount of stones, no polish tapes and nothing for a fine polish. My experience with the EdgePro is that's it's so easy to use correctly, which makes it quite effective. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the EdgePro system for newbies that don't want to learn another hobby (freehand sharpening).

dan


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that the Edge pro is working so well for you! IMO for those who do not want to learn to free hand or send their knives out the Edge Pro Apex is exactly what the doctor ordered! :thumb:


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I meant to update this thread over the weekend but didn't have the chance until tonight to do it. Here it goes -

I first want to say that the reseller I bought the knives from offered to make things right but at the time I had already talked to MACknife USA so went that route instead. The advice I would give to anyone buying a MAC knife mail order is to ask if the reseller can check the handles for fit/finish prior to shipping. I think most MAC products are fine but a little extra precaution should make sure there are no issues.

Mac Knife shipped me two knives (bread and pro santoku) to replace the two with the so-so handles I had received. These knives were packed well and had tons of information on their use and they made it very easy to send my returns. They arrived late last week so quick shipping also.

The bread knife handle felt fine on the replacement and it is sharp. I sliced some rolls the other day with the Mac superior bread knife and was amazed how clean the cut was. I can say though that if anyone has any pointers as to the best way to use this knife when cutting it would be greatly appreciated.

The Santoku handle also feels just right on the replacement and it's plenty sharp also. I used it to cut up some vegetables for a tray and had to keep stopping/slowing down because it was almost effortless to keep cutting with it and I rather not lose a finger. 

The only knife I have any questions is the 3 1/4" paring knife and it's sharpness. I talked MAC support which helped me with test it and felt things were fine with this knife. I know they are there if I still feel this knife is not up to par and need help.

So if you're wondering am I happy with my purchase of MAC knives I can answer in one word: YES. Also Mac support was impressive in their handling of matters and I am glad to know such a good product has good support/warranty.

As for the Cutco I decided to take back their Santoku which though a decent product wasn't at the same level of sharpness/design as the MAC in my opinion. I had no problems returning the knife. The steak/table knives we are going to keep, they work well enough for everyday meals and I like the fact they have a strong warranty considering these knives may not always be treated as well as they should.

I want to thank everyone on here for their suggestions, advice and opinions, it helped me a lot with my purchase and I'm looking forward to future conversations on here.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok two more things I'd like to get storage and board-

Currently have a plastic cutting board which from research is ok but a true wood cutting board is better. Should I avoid bamboo and go for a maple endgrain cutting board?

Also currently either using the case the knives came in or my old wolfgang puck knife block which doesn't fit the 10.5' bread knife. Does anyone have a recomendation for a block that could take 6-8 steak knives, 6.5 santoku, 10.5 MAC bread knife, 3.25 paring knife, shears and possibly a 8-10" chef knife?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Plastic cutting board: what kind? Irritatingly, it matters. Sani-Tuff is almost as good as end-grain wood, but it's technically some kind of hard rubber. Your standard nylon cutting board is OK on knives, but not great; side-grain wood would be better. Then there are plastic cutting boards that are almost as bad as glass.

If you've been basically happy with your plastic board, I suggest that you consider retiring it for situations when you want to run your board through the dishwasher. Then buy a wooden or Sani-Tuff board for everything else.

As to the type of wood and such, the basic problem with bamboo is that although it's a good wood for the purpose and is perfectly sustainable, it is usually bonded with a hard glue that is brutal on knives. So what then?

Well, the first thing I think is to decide on a budget. Then you want a BIG cutting board -- it's hard to imagine a board being too big. (Mine is 18x24, and I love it -- can't imagine how I lived with a littler one all those years.) Then you probably want wood, and Sani-Tuff isn't so cheap. At this point you will be narrowing in on relatively few choices, and can decide based on appearance and things like that. A really big end-grain maple board will NOT be cheap -- but if you treat it at all right, it should last a lifetime.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

What I'd really like is an island/cart with four legs with lockable casters cutting/chopping block. Prices I see for one that would work are a bit more than I want to pay at this time so figure get a decent end grain maple board. Thanks for the ideas!

Any advice about knife storage blocks?


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## simonlfcgreen (Jan 18, 2010)

I need a new Chefs Knife
Has to be good and one thats under 60 quid. Please help. Its the knife we use most and mine strugles getting through Bacon also info on a decent sharpener would be good.


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## briant73 (Dec 30, 2009)

I just thought I'd update this thread with with the new additions

Mac Pro 6" paring/utility knife. So now my collection has 1 superior bread knife, 1 Pro Santoku, 1 pro 3" paring knife and the new 6" pro.

I ordered an end grain maple block.

I also put into use a new Henckels 22 knife block where the steak knives go in horizintal. I wanted to get all eight of the cutco table/steak knives in there and also wanted something that can accomdate the MAC bread knife. This block accepts the Mac 10.5" superior bread knife just fine. Only two issues, one the knives due to their size and sitting horizontal don't can move around a bit if touched and I need recomendations for other knives I should add because the new knife block looks sparse right now.


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