# Another Chef's knife question :)



## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Hey,

I've read alot of information during the last week, and i love this forum, its great !
My girlfriend is about to buy her first Chef's knife, and she just cant decide, then i came to help  We are from Israel and we saw few knifes down here, but we cant choose.

We saw :
1. Zwilling 4 Star 20cm
2. F. Dick Premier Plus 21cm (81448210K or 81448210)
3. Wusthof Classic 20cm Cook's knife.

Now i think that Zwilling is not good as the others, it just very Adverstised here, so people think its good.
I like both 2+3, but i cant choose, and also i can choose from Global, Shou, anything.

Can some1 guide me for the right knife ? what do you think between the Wusthof and the dick knife ?
And most important, the Premier Plus of Dick, is good enough ? cuz most of the recommendation here was on the 1905 series.

Thanks for you help :chef:


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The double quote mark usually means inches. In the way you've used it, I think you mean centimeters. 

The ones you mention are certainly workable knives. Others will be along to tell you to buy Japanese blades at about the same or slightly higher price points. Those suggestions have some merit. It may be harder in your case where you'd need international shipping and many vendors don't want the hassle. 

I don't own any of those.

Phil


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks, I've fixed the length 

Any one can recommened about the 3 knifes i've wrote ? or some other even ?

I Prefer not to order from Abroad since it will be hard to use the Warrenty.
But i'de love to hear about any other Knife you recommend.


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## cheftimoto (Apr 8, 2007)

I don't have any experience with Zwilling, I've heard mostly good things about Wustof and I own some F. Dick knives but I find them very hard to sharpen. It's a very hard steel; but the premiers might be a better steel to work with.

Hopefully that helps a little.

Tim


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes Thanks.
I'm not that heavy user, we just cook as hobby at free time.
So how is that F. Dick premier series ?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chura,

For the benefit of others who may be reading this thread, let me clarify a little bit of terminology. I.e., Most of us call "Zwilling," "Henckels."

You've mentioned three different chef's knives, in a particular line of three particular German manufacturers. You also mentioned the Dick 1905 series. With the exception of the handle design, it's exactly the same as the Premier Plus.

All four lines are top lines from top German manufacturers. They're functionally the same knives, with minor differences in surface hardening and cosmetics; and very slight differences in handle design. The knife lines you mentioned by Henckels, F. Dick, and Wusthof Classic all use the same stainless steel from the same manufacturer. All of their chef's knives are designed according to the same "German profile," which includes a deep and highly curved belly, and a streamlined bolster, and a full finger guard. Fit and finish, cosmetics, and handle design are all excellent. Typical with 8" chef's knives, balance is neutral.

All of these knives represent a good choice for home cooks. If you were to buy one, I've no doubt you'd be happy with it for many years. However, they are by no means among the best choices.

You also mentioned Shun (you called it Shou) and Global. These are certainly different from the Germans and also from one another.

Shun Classic is an interesting knife. It's what's called _san mai_, which means the blade is a three-layer laminate with a harder steel core surrounded by a soft steel exterior. Shun uses a steel called VG-10 for the core, and a damascus-look pattern for the exterior. The advantages of _san mai_ construction don't really apply to VG-10; consequently it appears that Shun used it for cosmetic purposes only. Shun cosmetics are excellent as is their fit and finish. They can be purchased only with either a right or left-handed "D" handle. The knives are substantially lighter than the Germans, have an unusual top line, which means a lot of radius at the tip to get the edge up to the point; otherwise like most Japanese chef's knives, Shuns have the flatter edge typical of a French profile. Shun is a blend of traditional Japanese and European design, and doesn't use a bolster or finger guard. Balance in the 8" blade is a tiny bit blade-forward, but still neutral.

Global is another interesting knife. Their striking appearance is the accidental result of industrial and ergonomic considerations. Global makes their knives from a proprietary stainless called Cromova 18, which is better than what Germans use, but not quite as good as VG-10. Still, plenty good for your purposes. Again great fit and finish and cosmetics. The Global chef's knives are designed along the classic French profile with no unusual geometry at all, except for the way the handle flows into the blade. There is no bolster or finger guard. As with all Global knives, balance is exactly neutral. Globals are extremely light weight.

One thing I haven't talked about is "agility." With knives, that means how easy it is to place the knife -- especially the tip. It's also a function of weight. Compared to Global all of the others are clumsy.

The Shun could be good, but it's compromised by its long, straight topline which makes it comparatively difficult to place the point for common tasks like dicing an onion. It's also falls victim to its cosmetics in terms of wear resistance. That beautiful _suminigashi _pattern (Damascus look) scratches very easily and fades with wear.

Normal, ordinary, innocent people hear a lot about how "hard" the knife steel is as a selling point. Actually, Rockwell hardness isn't really that informative except as a metaphor for "toughness," a property it tracks pretty closely. The four important qualites are strength, toughness, edge taking and edge holding. Actually, for knife users (as opposed to makers), you might as well reduce it to edge taking and holding. In these respects the Shun is slightly better than the Global. And both Japanese knives are far better than any of the Germans.

So far, that would seem to leave the Global in the lead. Unfortunately, everyone I know who has used a Global as their primary chef's knife has suffered hand pain within a few months to a year. Personally, I like the Global chef's knives a lot for their agility and find them extremely comfortable; but have never used one as my primary knife.

I can't really recommend any of the knives you listed. If you really want a German knife, I suggest buying a Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu. The LCB series is a slight upgrade from the Classic in terms of blade steel, blade profile, but with the same handle. The series was discontinued in favor of the Ikon, but some of the knives are still floating around at close out prices.

If you'd prefer a Japanese knife the best stainless knives within what seems to be your price range are probably the Togiharu Inox (available at Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives) and the MAC Professional. Both lines are superior in every respect but cosmetics to Shun; and in every respect but agility to Global; and in every respect except fit and finish to the Germans (although the MAC is their equal).

Most cooks find the MAC exceptionally comfortable and natural in their hand -- which is no accident. MAC spends a lot of time, money and effort on ergonomics. Togiharu is simply a lot of knife for the money. Both of these knives get much sharper than the Germans, and will hold their edges much better.

At the next respective price levels down, MAC Superior is an extremely good knife, if a little homely and a tiny bit flexible. Togiharu Moly is ridiculously good considering the money. Both of these are excellent choices for a cooking school or _commis'_ knife.

You'll probably get recommendations for Tojiro DP. They have good blades, but a lot of people don't care for their handle designs. Women especially find them too "square" to be comfortable. Also, they have very bad quality control and, as a result, fit and finish can be bad. Even though they're a good price for the blade I recommend against. It's an excellent choice for someone who wants to experiment with Japanese knives. But it's really not a very good knife -- especially for a woman.

I should mention that as nicely as the Japanese knives sharpen and hold their edge, they're not magic. They get dull eventually and need occasional sharpening. It's a good idea to start with that in mind and make sure you have an adequate strategy for sharpening and maintenance at the same time you buy your new knife. Remember, all dull knives are equal.

In your shoes, I'd choose a MAC Pro.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Hey,

I must say this is a question i couldnt ask for more 
However i have some problems :

1. Shun are very costy here, and its double from the list i mantioned before.
2. Looks like you prefer Jap over ther Germans, and i respect it.
but following what i've read so far many people prefer the German.
3. Global are option, since i can afford the model "gf 33", but i'm not sure i like its handle, i'll hold it tomorrow.
4. I've also tried to find MAC Pro after many nice and positive reviews, but i cant find it in Israel unfortunately.
5. In case i'll have to choose from F. Dick to Wusthof, which will be better ?

N.B, Zwilling are Henckels actually ?

And again, thanks for the VERY Infomative answer !:talk:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't realize you were buying in Eretz. I thought US. My mistake.

Actually, I prefer antique French carbon -- but you're not the right type. The Germans, Swiss and Americans, make very good knives out of a certain type of steel and in a certain profile. The Japanese use much better steel -- that's objective, not opinion. The German profile makes for a heavier knife. Some people like the shape, most people who've worked with good French and German profile knives prefer the French. But it's a matter of taste.

If you "pinch grip," or have small hands you'll probably find the handle comfortable. I think something about the design causes people to squeeze the handle during use which ultimately causes hand problems. Beautiful, agile knife. 

Nu?

Nothing to choose between. Buy by looks, handle and shekels.

Emmis. Chaver, would I lie?

Shalom shalom,
BDL


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Nice hebrew 
Ur Israeli ?

Anyway, i wasnt saying u lie, just had to be sure 

I'll try the Global tomorrow. I hope that mybe that shop will have MAC, if they wont i'll choose one of the german. i can always upgrade.

I can always buy MAC online and ship it, but i think its better to feel the knife and be sure its fit my hand.

Thanks!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Born in the USA. Learned Hebrew in cheder, and I've been to Israel a few times. 

Most people feel the same way about "try before you buy." 

BDL


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## crimsonmist308 (Jan 27, 2008)

OK, i agree with almost everything boar_d_laze sez about knives,
having owned a lot of knives (over 200).

i enjoy the f.dick knives very much, moreso than the wusthofs,
of which i sold all of mine except for a six inch chef's which my 
brother bought for me when i first got married thirty years ago.

i agree with the evaluation of the tojiro knives ... very nice knives
but sometimes fit and finish of handle is off. actually, japanese 
knife makers traditionally didn't worry about the handles as much as for
the blades themselves. just look at the traditional knives, they
all have essentially the same ho wood handle from the cheapest
$10 knife all the way to $600+ knives. only "recently" have they
(recent in their centuries old tradition of making knives) started making
"western style" handles, and frankly, they could care less about the
handles ... they only make concession to western standards.

if i had to choose ONE knife for MOST of my work, it would be the 
MAC Sushi Master ... a teflon coated chef's knife that is light, quick,
relatively inexpensive, with a thin, wickedly sharp blade.

with the thin blade, there is very little "wedging" effect (like the thick
german blades) so the blade goes through things effortlessly.
maybe not important for home cooking, but try prepping sacks of
potatoes or cleaning up 120 lbs. of tritip roasts at a time and the
lightness, quickness, and sharpness of this MAC shines!


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

Well,

Yesterday i got a new Global GF-33 knife 21cm (2008 Edition).
I was at the store, and i saw F.Dick, the feeling was of cheap knife. for example the logo on the handles was just a sticker ?! i'm sure its gone after the first wash.

also the Global was just looking better. they both felt just fine in my hand.

What do u think about this global model ?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's a good knife. Better steel (Chromova 18) than the F. Dick (X45CrMoV). Easy to sharpen. Holds an edge well. Very agile. Great balance. Hard to believe the styling was purely functional -- great looking knife.

I find them very comfortable, but haven't used one as a primary knife. They used to be very popular in US professional kitchens, but you don't see them anymore. The primary complaints seem to be "slippery," and "hand pain." The "slippery" probably results from a bad grip, from trying to squeeze the knife too tightly; but the pain is harder to dismiss since the complaint is universal. Everyone I know personally or online who's used a Global chef's as their primary knife for any length of time has had problems. However, the knives are hugely popular in the UK and Australia. 

Let us know how it works out for you, 
BDL


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## chura (Oct 1, 2008)

i also bought Global 2 wheel Sharpener


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## eddy (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi 
These sorts of discussions always polarize chefs, regardless of whether they are professionals or just keen amateurs. So you probably won't get a definitive answer. Personally I like Global knives. They are a single piece knife. I think this is a bonus, as its makes them pretty robust. The stainless steel is very hard & therefore can be sharpened to a sharp edge & they retain the edge well. 
Global knife prices are OK for premium knives (in line with Henkels & Wustofs). If you are just buying one knife, a 20 cm Chefs knife is a pretty good start and was my first purchase. I am based in the UK & found one through www.global-knives-online.co.uk. The site has some price comparisons. I found a 20cm Chefs knife for something like 46 quid which I think is Ok (RRP is something like £75). Was delivered 2 days later, so no issues. 
Like I was saying - you will get all sorts of opinions. But in reality the key is just to go for a well known brand through an authorised merchant (so you don't get stuck with a fake- which there are lots fake global's). See the brief article on common traps/scams around fakes and how not to fall for them www.global-knives-online.co.uk/counterfeits/. Once you have a good quality knife, just make sure you keep it sharp- with a decent whetstone. If you don't know how to use one- just buy one & teach yourself from some of the videos on Youtube.com.
Let me know if you have any other questions
All the best

Eddy


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## home cook (Jan 29, 2014)

I have been a butcher for 17 years. I also love to cook. Hamburger helper is not food.  F dick knives are as good as or better than W or H. My advice is pick your knives well considering the application.  Start with a chefs knife you will never turn back.  I have also replaced my Forschners for F Dicks for meat applications.  Simply the best!


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## mhpr262 (Dec 6, 2013)

Dude he bought his knife almost six years ago ...


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

mhpr262 said:


> Dude he bought his knife almost six years ago ...


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif yeah there's been a rash of thread archeology lately.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

Many forums have the two factions:

Man, why are you bringing up such an old thread?!

                                      and

You know, this has been covered before, look up past threads.

You can't win


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## original (Oct 20, 2016)

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original


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Oct 25, 2016







I'm not sure how to open a new thread, my executive chef told me his favorite knife is Swedish steel made in Japan all we know is the embossment says "Sakai kanesige" can anyone lead me to more of these knives? Internet searches have all failed


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Hi @Original, a quick google search brings up some hits for Kaneshige Cutlery Co. but I am not finding any for Swedish steel (am finding knives using the Hitachi paper steels as well as Takefu's VG10). 
Do you have a specific knife request or are you looking more general at good buys?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@foody518 swedish stainless could be 19c27. Swedish steel could also mean carbon though as in the Misono swedish. Then there's whatever spicy steel is...


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> @foody518
> swedish stainless could be 19c27. Swedish steel could also mean carbon though as in the Misono swedish. Then there's whatever spicy steel is...


Yes, very much so. What I meant was that during my (admittedly) brief search is that I was finding for example Kaneshige Blue #2 and Kaneshige VG10 knives, not any steel indicator that would hearken to the Swedish steel producers. If there is a line that is using like 19C27 or AEB-L then I stand corrected

As an aside, I recently talked to chef who is convinced that the Misono Swedish carbon steel is 1095 or something that acts very much like it. I looked up steel compositions to see that Bohler-Uddelholm and Sandvik both make a '20C' roughly equivalent in composition to 1095.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/1095.shtml


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## original (Oct 20, 2016)

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original


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Oct 25, 2016


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## original (Oct 20, 2016)

This is the makers mark I'm searching for to no avail


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

This thread says Kaneshige is the parent company of Konosuke.  http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/17107-Kaneshige?p=285131&viewfull=1#post285131


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

That really looks like a vintage knife, long out of production given the absence of internet info.

Don't fret though Original, as was said much better steels and knives can be had.


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## original (Oct 20, 2016)

Thus brings me to my next question of what to buy next. My collection is simple right now. I use my 10" greban, 8" cascade chef, and my paring 3 1/2". I want a petty, Nakiri, and lastly a slicer. Space is limited In my kitchen cutting boards aren't deep. I use an over the bolster pinch grip predominately. I'm interested in carbon clad but not a necessity, my range for the jap steel is around 250$ per piece and I just want recommendations from other chefs who have already trailed and erroered.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

We really don't know yet what you prefer in a knife, so I'll just say that the Geshin Kajero my be attractive to you for it's relatively flat profile, nicely thin at the edge, fully stainless and steel that takes a very good edge and holds it forever.  Or for something well within the price range and especially thin at the edge, great cutter, the Itonomon Millions turned us onto.


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