# Hello and a few questions about knives and sharpening



## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Hi there.  This forum came up on Google searches about knives, and since you guys seem very knowledgeable, I would like to ask a few questions.

First, background:  I'm not a professional.  Just an enthusiastic home cook who is slightly OCD about my tools.  I grew up cooking for the family because, growing up with my brother, whoever helped to cook did not have to do the dishes, and I HATED doing dishes.  I grew to like cooking and, well, here I am.

Anyhoo I grew up cooking with a curved butcher knife about 90% of the time, the last 10% going mostly to a cleaver.  The butcher knife was carbon -- I don't know what make, because it was ancient by the time I got to use it, all I remember is that it was a two rivet wood handle, was heavily patinaed to a dark gray, and apparently built to survive the apocalypse.  I also remember that it got a pretty decent edge even from a few swipes on one of those cheap sharpeners with two rows of steel washers, and got a WICKED edge when I took the time to sharpen it by hand, which I did sometimes because sharpening on a water stone is an activity that I find it oddly relaxing.  The cleaver was a generic wood handled thing that was replaced a couple of times when the handle broke, nothing special.

When I moved out, I decided to spend a little money on knives and got an 8" chef and a chopper from Henckels.  They did okay because this was back in the day when Henckels still made everything in Germany.  Then I also bought a Wustof Grand Prix II 10" for the holiday cooking because I always end up doing the big turkeys and hams (the butcher knife sadly was somehow lost during a move).

A few years later, being a working man by then, thought to expand my collection.  I happened to read Kitchen Confidential right about that time so I got a Global.  It instantly became my favorite -- lighter, thinner, and sharper than the Henckels, and no annoying bolster that I have to grind back when I've worn the edge down from sharpening.

Up to this time I was still working with just the cheap doublesided generic stone I bought at an army/navy surplus place back in college.  It's about 8"x1.75"x.75", rough on one side and medium on the other, or so I thought.  I have no idea what grit it is (might have been on the box but even if it had been, I have long since forgotten) but it feels like about 150/300, or maybe 250/500.

Even with this stone I can get my knives to the point where they can shave my forearm, though not cleanly.

Eventually I learned how to sharpen for real from the Global website, and I bought a King 1000 grit stone.  It works great but seems to wear down really fast.  Then I started reading about stones and knives more, got curious, and bought a natural Aoto stone, which I hear runs from 2000-6000 depending on the stone.  It also does a great job but wears down really fast, especially given that it is very hard and seems to take forever to sharpen.

So my questions are:

1. Do all Japanese waterstones wear down like this?  The cheap stone I got in college is still going strong after more than a decade, while the King and Aoto stones are both starting to dish after less than a dozen sharpenings.  Even though they are both very thick in comparison, it would still suck to have to buy another one every two or three years, especially the Aoto stone (should have stuck with the synthetics...) which came with a couple of seams in the stone so I can only use about three quarters of it to begin with.

2. Do kitchen knives benefit from any sharpening past 2000 grit or so?  As it is my knives can now shave my forearm cleanly (except for the cleaver, which I intentionally left with a dull convex edge to deal with large bones), though I would not dare to put them to my face.  I read all this stuff about the 3000, 5000, 6000...  all the way up to the 20,000 diamond stones from Shapton and the leather strops with the diamond paste.  Seriously -- does all that really benefit the knife?  Wouldn't an edge that fine curl the second it hit a bone?

3. After reading all this stuff, I realized that all of my knives are still relatively soft steel -- Rockwell 56-58.  I was thinking of moving to a more serious knife, and was wondering if the Rockwell hardness makes much of a difference in real practical usage.  I can imagine it would hold the edge better, but I would also be worried about chipping.  So...  Is it worth it to get a Rockwell 60-62 VG-10 knife?  Or even the Rockwell 66 Henckels Cermax or Miyabi 7000 MC?

Thanks a bunch in advance.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Wow -- wonderful questions, and the knowhow to back it up. Welcome!

1. Yes, Japanese stones dish WAY faster than so-called oilstones. Synthetics generally dish faster than naturals, too. The aoto you were using may well have been synthetic, incidentally, although many natural aotos also dish fast. There are stones that dish very slowly indeed, but on the whole they're very expensive and not ideally suited to kitchen knives anyway (they're better for things like woodworking tools). The thing is, that dishing is due to mud, and the mud is what makes sharpening on waterstones so beautifully effective. If you've been rinsing that away, stop it right now -- sharpen in the mud. Let us know if you need advice on how to flatten a waterstone, by the way.

2. Sharpening past 2k -- depends on the knife, really. First of all, it's got to be pretty hard. Second, it's got to be pretty even-grained. Third, it's got to be something that actually wants to be hideously smooth. It's not a question of whether it hits bone or not: you can sharpen a butcher's cleaver to 10k without that really changing its effectiveness. But if you're going to shave sashimi slices so that the surface is like glass, the knife has to sort of slide between the molecules without any sawing, if you see what I mean. No knife you own, if I read your list correctly, will gain much of anything from it: not hard enough, not even-grained enough (which is one advantage of less hardness -- you don't need the finer and more expensive steels), and not designed for that kind of use anyway. The Global would take a bit more than 2k, I think, but I doubt you'd gain enough to make it worthwhile. And 5k+ stones can be remarkably expensive (and yes, they dish).

3. Buying a harder knife... that's, um, harder. It really depends more on the knife than just hardness alone. I mean, an idiot knife-maker could harden something to h*ll, but it'd just shatter when you used it much. That's not the point. Granted very fine-grained steel and excellent design, high hardness is an advantage, but that advantage does come at something of a price jump. And if you are considering such a jump, I would not go with the kind of knives you're contemplating here.

From where I stand, high hardness gains the cook a few things, and the very first is weight. You simply do not need to have so much metal holding up the edge when it's very hard. So for example, I still have a Wusthof 6" chef's knife, and I also have a 270mm (but actually measures 282mm) Masamoto chef's knife. The latter is thus closing in on double the length of the former. However, the Wusthof actually weighs more. Why? Fat blade. By Masamoto standards, a Global is kind of porky, and a Wusthof is frankly obese. And there are knives that are well into starvation-diet territory by comparison to the Masamoto.

Second, high hardness combined with good steel allows weird and creepy levels of sharpness. But if you're already regularly sharpening your knives to near-razor sharpness, it's just an improvement -- a big one, to be sure -- on very good, not some kind of quantum leap (by contrast to most folks who clunk along with dull knives and never know what remotely sharp is). The big thing is that you can sharpen the things much more acutely: if you've been doing, let's say, 20 degrees on a side, these things can easily take 13 or 14 degrees per side, which is a dramatic leap (40 total to 27 total).

Third, high hardness allows certain kinds of knife designs that are totally unsustainable without it, such as single-beveled knives, or grinding patterns like gross asymmetries. These things basically allow you to decrease your total angle even further: an usuba, to take the most extreme example I know, is normally built to have a total angle around 12 degrees, i.e. 12 degrees one side, 0 on the other. If you tried that with a Wusthof, it'd crumple like tinfoil.

Now do you want this kind of thing, honestly? It really depends how you cut, how much you want to spend, and so on. For most folks, this is a jump into the world of sharpness in the first place, but it isn't for you. So it's a different question.

Yes, these knives are more prone to chipping, but they're not delicate flowers or anything. If you're getting lots of chipping, either you're using the knife seriously wrong or you've got a mediocre knife. (I know: I have a very mediocre J-knife, and it's a nightmare.) I've never succeeded in chipping my Masamoto, and I sharpen it steep and very asymmetrical. Now that I use a very good usuba instead of the cheap POS I used to use, what chipping I get -- and it's not much -- is attributable 100% to my mediocre knife skills, and has been getting less and less common as I get better and better with the knife. So what does this mean for you?

Nobody can really answer that for you, of course. But I'd say that if you like to use knives with a fair bit of force, something that comes naturally with the sort of knives you've been using, you'd have to plan on a significant period of self-retraining. For example, if you use that fan-mince move that French chefs love, where you rock the knife rapidly back and forth around its tip while the heel moves side to side like a fan, mincing herbs or whatever, you're going to have to be very careful: you're going to need to use very little force downward on the tip end, or the blade will lodge slightly in the board and you'll get chipping from the sideways force of the rotation. If you're good with the knives you've got, and you like the style of cutting you do, and you're not looking forward to a bunch of retraining, then these knives may not be for you. You might want to think about going for a truly great example of the kind of knife you've already got, like for example some of the Sabatier _au carbone_ lines, which would basically be like that indestructible thing you used to have only ludicrously wonderful.

If on the other hand you're not happy with your knives and cutting, you're ready to try something new, and you've got a little money to invest, you will probably love modern Japanese knives. Don't go halfsies: get the real thing. We can give all kinds of recommendations if you want to do this -- I won't jump the gun on that.

But it's really about where you stand now and where you want to go.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Okay...  I would have to think about that, because at this point I have three chef's knives, and getting another one would pretty much take me into the collector category.  Similarly, sharpening my knives past what they are now, or getting deeper into sharpening, would be more of a hobby than of any real additional usefulness to someone who only cooks for friends and family -- neither speed nor presentation are big issues.

Still, I enjoy the sharpening itself, and I do enjoy the sharpening itself...  Hmm...

Reg. Stones:

I think you're right about the Japanese stones...  The cheap stone I have from back in the day (which feels pretty much like a wood file after using the 1000 grit and the Aoto) hardly ever raised any mud, and only ever showed a tiny little bit of black dust now and again, which is probably steel particles from the knife and very little if anything from the stone.  After all these years and countless sharpenings, I barely see a hint of a curve on it.

This would also explain why I keep having to grind back the bolster on the old Henckels 8" chef.  It's now more of an 7.75" chef with a thinner blade.  At this rate, in another twenty or thirty years, I will have made my own pettite out of it. 

I read up on the Global site about the mud helping, and the Aoto -- natural from Japan Woodworker for $75 -- does raise some mud, but not as much as I thought it would.  And it dished much faster than I thought it would considering how little mud it raised.

Right now I leave the mud on the stone while sharpening, but rinse it off the blade periodically during the session to examine the edge, making sure I have the bevel right.  It bothers me slightly that I don't understand how the mud helps (I dislike doing things just because someone said so, without understanding why), so if anyone knows please enlighten me.

For the flattening, I thought I might do this:  get another of the same stone, and soak and rub them against each other before I even start each time.  Seems to me that this would generate some amount of mud and flatten at the same time (I didn't come up with this myself entirely...  I saw a Youtube video of some Japanese guy flattening his stone with another stone once.  My only input is to use the same stone so any wear from the flattening can be used in the sharpening, which makes me feel slightly less bad about losing a layer of a $75 stone to the flattening).  I think if I did this before every other sharpening, switching between the two stones in the meanwhile, it should keep the stone(s) flat and speed up generating the mud.

Reg. Knives:

I don't get a lot of chipping -- I switch to the cleaver with the convex edge when I cut anything harder than chicken backs (all of my knives, even the Global, zip through those without ill effects, and I only use the heavier Henckels or Wustoff on splitting thigh and breast).  I did chip about 1/8" off of the tip on my Global once (I know that makes you guys wince...  But it only ever that once, in like 20 years, and was really the result of my leaving the knife on the board while rummaging through the cupboards above my counter, and something falling out of there and knocking the knife off of the board on to the tile kitchen floor).  I ground it down with the rough stone and the point is fine.

The accidents I have are typically the blade coming into contact with something else, a bowl or measuring glass or another tool, while I am busy cooking (scrambling to deglaze a pan or change the temperature on a burner or flip stuff while making a more complicated meal) and so have a number of tools, measuring cups, etc. out on the counter.  When this happens, I can see just a sliver of reflection from the edge when I hold it up to the light, and I haven't run across anything I couldn't fix with a little bit of time and elbow grease on the stones, but it makes me wonder what would happen if the same happened to a 66 Rockwell knife -- even if I could fix it, it would take forever. 

I sharpen my Globals to 15-20 degrees on each side according to the Global website -- placing a penny on the stone to check the angle before I start (though I find this a little weird -- wouldn't this lead to blades with different widths ending up with different angles?).  The Global should at least take a 6K since Global sells a Global-branded 6K stone, but I still wonder if it actually improves the cutting ability of the edge.

Reg. knife skills:

I have no real formal training, and what little I know I learned from my stepdad, who put himself through college as a short order cook and a couple of friends who went to chef school (but who, for whatever reason, seem to only ever take short term stints as cooks between stretched of other jobs), and I learn little things here and there from cooking shows and books.  But to be honest my knife techniques are probably just a collection of bad habits accumulated over time.  I don't mind retraining since I won't be under time pressure.

I toyed with the idea of going to chef school just as a hobby, but could not justify the expense if it was not going to be a job thing.  Considering that I find myself scrambling when cooking eight to ten dishes, I doubt I can survive in a kitchen cooking hundreds a night anyway.

So...

I think I would like to learn a few new things as a hobby cook, and I can spare a few hundred bucks here and there to support the hobby (chef school, at 30K, is right out).  I enjoy all kinds of food, so it might be fun to also learn how to make sushi etc.  I think I will dip my toe in the water here.

Right now my list is:
 

Henckels 7.75" chef 
Henckels cleaver
Global 7 7/8" chef (lost a little bit to the chipped tip I ground out)
Wustoff Grand Prix II 9" chef
...and a couple of crappy paring knives, which I should just throw away.

For now, I'm thinking:

1. Get a high hardness utility/paring to get a feel for the way these things cut and sharpen;
 

2. Get a 1000/6000 combo stone; the 1000 I can use to flatten the 1000 King, the 6000 I will play with a little bit to see if I like the effects of the more advanced sharpening;
 

3. Experiment with more demanding knife skills with different knives for a while.

...and go from there.

As for *which* utility/paring  knife to get -- I am 6'1" with relatively long arms and large hands even for my height.  From what I read here on this forum, it seems that the Tojiro DP line might be a good entry point -- people say their handles are too large and blocky, but I have large hands and some experience working wood, so I can always file and sand the handle to customize it.  If it's not my thing, well, it seems to be the most reasonably priced high hardness knife I can get for the money at the moment.

The Sabatier au carbon sounds good, but too similar to what I already have.

So, any advice, thoughts...

Oh yeah I also have a couple of questions -- do you really find that the asymmetrical thing helps?  What does it really do?  Why is 15 on one side and 0 on the other any different than 8 or so on each side?

I also have some questions about natural stones and stones in general...  But maybe that should be a different thread altogether...


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I would like to hear BDL s comments on your question. He is very Knowlegable re this topic/


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Capsaicin said:


> Okay... I would have to think about that, because at this point I have three chef's knives, and getting another one would pretty much take me into the collector category.


Man, I won't even mention how many I have then!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hi,


> It bothers me slightly that I don't understand how the mud helps (I dislike doing things just because someone said so, without understanding why), so if anyone knows please enlighten me.


Roughly speaking, it makes the stone active rather than passive, so it does more of the work for you. But there is some discussion lately, which I confess I do not at this point fully understand, about how hard stones are better for things like woodworking tools and soft stones for kitchen knives. I don't really see why this should be, but the people who are trying in their way to explain it lately do know what they're talking about. Maybe BDL or Phaedrus knows?


> For the flattening, I thought I might do this: get another of the same stone, and soak and rub them against each other before I even start each time. Seems to me that this would generate some amount of mud and flatten at the same time (I didn't come up with this myself entirely... I saw a Youtube video of some Japanese guy flattening his stone with another stone once. My only input is to use the same stone so any wear from the flattening can be used in the sharpening, which makes me feel slightly less bad about losing a layer of a $75 stone to the flattening). I think if I did this before every other sharpening, switching between the two stones in the meanwhile, it should keep the stone(s) flat and speed up generating the mud.


Well, that works, but it's not super-effective. You need to start with your stones already basically flat. It does generate both mud and flattening, but on the whole it is an inefficient method: you will wear your stones away faster than need be by this method. However, it is quick -- assuming the stones are already close to flat -- and very convenient. On the whole, I would prefer you think of this method as "dressing" the stone rather than flattening it: if you've got a 1k stone and a 6k stone soaking, you use the 1k to dress the 6k after you've finished 1k grinding; this does a little flattening and gets the mud going on the 6k. But if either stone is significantly dished you won't get very far this way.


> Reg. Knives:
> I don't get a lot of chipping


This worries me, actually. The angles on that Global are thick indeed -- that knife could take thinner -- and when you move to both thinner angles and harder steels I worry that you will start to get chipping. You can certainly fix it with elbow grease, but it's irritating. I suppose what I'm saying is that you need to plan on getting some "microchipping," which is teeny-tiny little chips taken out right down at the edge, sometimes not even visible unless you're looking for them. That's easy enough to fix, but it does mean that for a few months, until you get used to the new knife or knives, you're going to be doing quite a lot of sharpening.


> Get a 1000/6000 combo stone; the 1000 I can use to flatten the 1000 King, the 6000 I will play with a little bit to see if I like the effects of the more advanced sharpening


I always used to recommend that combo stone, but I don't any more because someone pointed out to me just how expensive it is. And since you've already got a 1k, what's the point? A King 1k is a wonderful stone for you at this stage of the game, if you ask me, because if you do run out and buy some J-knives, you're going to be doing a bunch of sharpening, and that's a reasonably quick stone, easy to use and flatten, and it's cheap and reliable. For 6k, I much prefer a muddier stone, like an Arashiyama or Takenoko, but I believe they're somewhat on the expensive side these days (I bought all my stuff in Japan, so I don't always have a clear sense what things cost elsewhere). As noted above, the 1k isn't really going to flatten the 6k, but it will do a decent job of dressing it to raise mud -- and that's important with soft, fine stones.

I hadn't really focused on the fact that you've been using a King 1k. I'm surprised that you find it dishes so rapidly. How often are you sharpening? And how much force are you putting into it? Having started on American-style "oil stones," you may have gotten into the habit of really bearing down. You don't need to do that with a halfway decent water stone. Admittedly things like Henckels and even Global are a b*tch to sharpen sometimes, but certainly if you buy a reasonably sharpen-able new knife you need to stop doing that -- and then your stones will wear slower, as well.


> Get a high hardness utility/paring to get a feel for the way these things cut and sharpen


Good idea as far as the sharpening goes, but "the way these things cut" isn't all that generalizable. The main thing is that you can take such a knife to scary levels of sharpness, and they'll stay that way remarkably long. Still, a petty knife is a great place to start. Someone with more experience of a range of knives than I will have to give comments about the Tojiro and such.


> do you really find that the asymmetrical thing helps? What does it really do? Why is 15 on one side and 0 on the other any different than 8 or so on each side?


Urgh, that's a long story. Some people hate it, some people love it. Here's the short version, as far as I know it -- and let's please not start a big debate about this unless someone wants to start a new thread.

The short version is that there isn't much difference, if any, between 15/0 and 7.5/7.5. The thing is, you can't actually grind a knife 7.5/7.5 -- it will crumble. If the steel is very fine and hard, an asymmetrical grind allows you to reduce your total angle; if the steel is coarse and/or soft, this really won't work. Basically what you're doing is trading crosswise stability for up-and-down stability, if that makes sense to you. To take an extreme example, a serious professional usuba is usually going to be ground at about 10-12 degrees on one side... and 0 on the other (though it is hollow-backed, which has other implications). If you had to make a knife that would hold up to cutting a carrot on a cutting board and was going to be ground 6/6, you would need some kind of ultra-super-duper NASA steel or something, and it'd cost a fortune; instead, you grind in this tricky way so that you get a lot of metal in line behind the edge and you never, ever apply crosswise force when cutting --- and a decent usuba isn't cheap, either.

So as I currently think about it, the question you're asking is in a sense precisely the wrong one. The question isn't the difference between 15/0 and 7.5/7.5, but the difference between 15/5 and 15/15, and the answer is fairly obvious. But watch out: serious asymmetry does make for a fragile edge and you have to behave yourself with it.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I love reading this board. You guys are awesome. Welcome to the forum, Cap!


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Thank you Chris for the information.  And thank you Trooper for the welcome.

I guess I have not been entirely fair with the King 1000 and the Aoto.  I should have given it some slack because of the way I was using them.

The information that I should have mentioned is that, before I learned how to sharpen on the Global website (and from a bunch of Youtube videos since), my knives were at much duller angles than the 15 or so that the penny method has them at now.  I learned how to use waterstones, how to check the angle, and the typical Japanese waterstone sharpening techniques all at about the same time that I got the King 1000, and of course once I did one knife like that and felt the difference, I HAD to go and do it on all of them.  So, the sharpening sessions I put that King 1000 through were not just sharpening sessions -- they were really reprofiling sessions, considerably longer and more rigorous than the touching up that a knife already generally at the desired angles would have warranted.

And once I got my new toy, the Aoto, of course I HAD to run all my knives through that right away too.   So both stones got a lot of hard usage right off the bat compared to my cheap stone.

Of course, this still really, really surprised me after the way the cheap stone has lasted, especially since I thought that the huge price difference meant that the more expensive stones would last better.  I guess this is not that common for people moving from regular stones to Japanese styled stones.

Anyway, since you mentioned cost, I also have a huge gripe about how much all this stuff costs now: when I went Googling for Japanese knives and stones, I keep finding all these awesome deals; except they are all from three years ago when the Yen was 120 to the dollar.  Now everything is 50-100% more expensive because the Yen is 82 to the dollar.  I feel as if I had arrived at the party just after the open bar closed!

Maybe I should get a diamond plate for the reprofiling and save the stones for actual sharpening?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

If it's any consolation, my friends who actually study things Japanese for a living are pretty certain that the exchange will eventually re-balance --- but it will probably take a couple-three years.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I use a bastard file for flattening my oilstones. It works well and I don't use the file for anything else. You can also reprofile your stone with your fingers, like I did today - LOL . . .


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Ow. Reminds me of when I was first starting sharpening, and I was trying to hold this perfect angle, and without realizing it I had a finger actually holding the angle by resting on the stone with the flat of the knife on top, sort of like one of those little gimmick things people sometimes clip to the spine of a knife, you know. Grind, back and forth, hello cleanly-polished finger! (It didn't help that the water I was using was seriously cold, and when my finger warmed up OWWWWW!)


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Look on the bright side...  Now no matter what you did, CSI will never identify you by fingerprints. 

I have a slightly different problem -- sometimes in moving the blade back and forth, I catch my finger between the knife and the stone.  So far I've only pinched off little bits of skin without real injury...  Hopefully my luck holds out until my technique gets better.

I'll try the asymmetrical sharpening thing on one of my knives and see if it works for me.  In the meanwhile, I'll see about maybe flattening my King 1000 with some sandpaper on my marble counter.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

The old bastard file in the garage works great for my stones - at least until you can get the actual correct tool.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

HI Cap

Being still sort of a newbie myself I wanted to chime in as some of the things your going through I just did as well, and maybe I can help save you some frustration or confusion etc.

I have never used a Global so I can not compare or comment etc, but I did have similar Henckels and my recently purchased J knives include a Tojiro petty so I will stick with comparing on these.

First thing I learned real fast was that J knives sharpen very differently than Henckels, and also are obviously sharper OOTB. So much so that I can not even comment on how Henckels sharpen on whetstones because soon as I was able to handle and do a quick test on the first Tojiro I received I sold all my Henckels before the whetstones arrived. Sort wished I waited so I would have had the experience, but did get more than expected for my old ones due to the Christmas rush.

I can save you some time as I did not have too much luck going asymmetric with my 8" Henckels chef. It did improve it by making it a bit sharper (but that could have been due to more acute angle etc) and it would hold the edge slightly longer, but after spending some time with the Tojiro's and Fujiwara I have now all that was well sort of a joke in relation. Sure it would shave forearm hair, but not really any better than the Tojiro did OOTB and it would not hold the edge nearly as long.

I should note that before selling the Henckels I sharpened them one last time, but also reduced them to a more blunt angle so that the next owner would not be going crazy or cursing me because they would have to be constantly steeling them or worse.

I had used the Tojiro petty as somewhat of a test knife for sharpening (mostly so that I was not chancing messing up one of the larger more expensive ones, and it is shorter and a little easier to do) so I can say that it did not like my oil stone (I used only the softer washita side, but it was slow) but was a lot better on the 2K glass stone and 6k Arashiyama, and since being thinned a bit and sharpened a few times it is at a level of sharpness that my previous knives could only dream of. I know that is a pretty bold statement, but I believe it 100% and it is true.

A couple things to remember on the Tojiro petty is that the handle is not as large and bulky as what you have read as those comments are on the gyuto and the petty uses a smaller handle. I actually like it as it is still a bit boxy which gives a good grip (remember you only need a light grip due to the sharpness anyhow) and it is very comfortable for me, but also we have very different hands as mine are more boxy than long etc.

Since the price point on them is so low right now (under 30 if I remember right) and below what I paid for my previous ones on clearance I think you got a great idea to just pick one up and experiment. Just don't be surprised if you end up thinking if this is the low end of the J knife world WTF is the high end like, and that is exactly what I did myself. Either way you will be able to get a feel for what your getting into without a large outlay of cash and the fact that you have that 1k stone already is a big plus as well.

Oh and get those stones flat (I am guilty of not doing this on my oil stones for years, but it seems even more important on wetstones) as it seems when you get to sharpening at more acute angles the dish can mess with you as it does change the angle your sharpening at during the beginning mid and end of the stone and that makes it really hard to be holding a constant angle. This did not seem as obvious on the softer german steel at less acute angles but was real obvious when bringing them to be more acute.

Also I have found that even though this is an entry level knife I really am very happy with it, and have become a fan of VG10 real quick.

Good luck in whatever you decide!


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I think that's pretty much what I plan to do...  Start with the 120mm Tojiro and see how it feels.  I found it for $39.99 with free shipping and just pulled the trigger on the order.

I was also wondering -- what does everyone think of the folded steel versions of these same knives?  I know that the pros here probably laugh at such cosmetic adornments, and it probably make it a real pain in the ass to sharpen, having to be careful not to scrape up the pretty patterns, but they do look cool...

I don't think I'll get rid of my Henckels chef... I already use it as my light bone knife, for chickens etc., and rely mostly on my Global for most of my actual cooking.  If I end up being converted, I'll probably replace the 9" Wusthof with a 300mm gyuto instead, because I got that one to deal with big meat dishes in the first place.

So...  I'll try the asymmetrical thing on the Wustof for now and see if I get anywhere.

How do I post photos on this board?


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Cap, look at the toolbar above where you type the message ^^^^^^ There us a "film strip" and just to the left is a little "insert image" icon. That is your photo loader - click on it and you'll know what to do.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks Trooper...  I'm going to try and put a 30/70 on my Wusthoff.  Will post photos once I'm done.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Errr... I don't think that's a great idea, Cap. Soft steel. Asymmetrical works because of hard steel.

Do you know much about architecture and stuff like that? If you build a triangle, it turns out that you have to figure out which part of the triangle is most subject to stress. If it's on the narrow point (supposing something other than an equilateral), the best thing is to have the longest side in-line with the stress. With knives, this is remarkably difficult to achieve, so what you do is to make the second-longest side sustain maximal stress. But that depends on being able to ignore the cross-wise stress. That requires hard steel. A soft steel, e.g. a Wusthof, is basically made to collapse with cross-stress, and you bring it back into line with a honing rod. Asymmetrical grinding means that almost everything is just a hair crosswise at a peculiar angle (think of it like a chisel going down 5 degrees off straight and you'll see what I mean). Hard steels can ignore this; soft steels can't.

So in short, I suspect that if you grind your Wusthof that way, you'll just get the worst of all possible worlds -- a soft, collapsing edge that won't do the work.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

ChrisLehrer said:


> Errr... I don't think that's a great idea, Cap. Soft steel. Asymmetrical works because of hard steel.
> 
> Do you know much about architecture and stuff like that? If you build a triangle, it turns out that you have to figure out which part of the triangle is most subject to stress. If it's on the narrow point (supposing something other than an equilateral), the best thing is to have the longest side in-line with the stress. With knives, this is remarkably difficult to achieve, so what you do is to make the second-longest side sustain maximal stress. But that depends on being able to ignore the cross-wise stress. That requires hard steel. A soft steel, e.g. a Wusthof, is basically made to collapse with cross-stress, and you bring it back into line with a honing rod. Asymmetrical grinding means that almost everything is just a hair crosswise at a peculiar angle (think of it like a chisel going down 5 degrees off straight and you'll see what I mean). Hard steels can ignore this; soft steels can't.
> 
> So in short, I suspect that if you grind your Wusthof that way, you'll just get the worst of all possible worlds -- a soft, collapsing edge that won't do the work.


Have to admit I did read that more than once as it is a bit involved, but I know it is true because I did have problems with the Henckels I did grind to asymmetrical etc.

I did use my least expensive knife at the time so that I would not worry much if I totally messed it up etc, but even though it did get sharper and oddly in opposition of what you describe above the edge oddly did not collapse as quickly as when it was 50/50 at the same angles. Keep in mind I did grind to angles that it would not support with either edge shape, and did add a second or micro bevel before selling it to calm things down a bit for the next owner too.

Maybe the best idea and what will be of most value to cap is about using a less expensive least liked knife to experiment with, and that the Wustof he has may be better to keep more inline with the oem profile or close to it as this knife sounds like it may very well end up being his heavy duty bone breaker etc.

I think you guys have figured out by my questions in other threads I am far from the authority on this stuff, but I am pretty confident in the idea of messing with your knives you have the least interest in before changing the ones you like.

Also I am glad I did mess around with different angles and asymmetry as it was a good learning experience and believe it would be the same for cap as well (or anyone else looking to improve their skills and knowledge).


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Oh well... I already did it.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

There is some unevenness along the edge -- my technique is still not great with feeling the edge.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Basically what I did was to keep the factory edge, whatever it is at, on the right side, and do the penny thing on the left side. I think that's how it works, right? The side towards you takes the sharper angle?

Since my technique is not that gret yet, te bevel is not completely straight, and I'm still getting a little bit of a convex edge. That might help with the Wusthoff not being the type of knives intended for asymmetrical sharpening.

The Aoto put a way shinier surface on the bevel than I expected.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

The post with the other side of the blade is being held for moderation for some reason...  The server thinks Wusthof looks like porn? 

Anyway since already I went and did it last night, there's not much left but for me to use this thing for a week or two and see what happens.  If it starts falling apart I'll grind it back to a less ambitious angle.  I'll test it by cutting up some chicken thighs and backs.

The Wusthof Grand Prix is not an expensive knife, so I don't worry about it...  The reason why I didn't do this with the venerable Henckels is that I had already lost so much metal on that one over the years, that it would have been way more work -- I am already maybe 3/16" into the blade, and the metal is thicker, so changing the angles on it would have involved removing much more metal, and so way more time and effort than on the much newer Wusthoff.  But I bought it on sale at a home goods place for $50 so if I messed it up a little it wouldn't be the end of the world...  At the worst, I lose a year's useful life on it, which I consider cheap tuitions for all the stuff I am learning.

Just to summarize what I've learned though -- the asymmetrical thing only works on very hard steels because it relies on the steel not bending from side to side?  So this wouldn't work for my Globals either?


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Quote:


Capsaicin said:


> Just to summarize what I've learned though -- the asymmetrical thing only works on very hard steels because it relies on the steel not bending from side to side? So this wouldn't work for my Globals either?


Looks good - you kept the grind pretty even along the edge - Yah, not really going to gain much by doing it on a german knife, but nobody will take your birthday away for doing it. Fun is Fun 

The asym profile really only works on thin - and - hard blades. the Wusthof is thick and soft and also curved. Your Wusthof is really designed to put heavy-duty amount of steel behind a bi-lateral edge, for even cutting under pressure. With an asym angle, you may find the knife wants to twist toward the acute-edge side when bearing down on some carrots or something, because of the width of the blade behind the edge. This isn't as much of an issue with a very thin 70/30 edge because there is no large back-bevel/wedge of steel forcing its way into the product after the initial cut is made.

If yoi were really motivated, and this has become a test/play knife anyway - you could try thinning the whole of the blade - take a half-millimeter off of each side of that beast, at least along the spine-side. Then you will have more of a flat blade instead of a huge wedge-shaped blade.

The cool thing about old knives, especially German chef's knifes, is that you can always continue to widdle it down to a utility knife, a cheese knife, an oyster knife, lol... have fun with it.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I'll think about that, but if I'm going to remove that much more metal, I will have to somehow get access to a grinding wheel or belt.  Thinning the whole blade by hand is just going to take forever.

Besides, if the knife is too soft for this anyway, there isn't much point, right?

One thing I should mention is that each of the bevels is a little bit (maybe 1/16" or so) wider than it looks on the photos because of the imperfections in my technique: since I am not able to keep the bevel completely at one uniform angle, I unintentionally put a slight convex curve on my bevels, and each bevel that you see in the photos are actually just the widest part of it, with a tiny little bit on either side that is not really visible on the photo because they don't reflect light the same way.  I tried to show this by taking the photo of the knive with the edge facing the camera, but I don't think I can really show it on photos unless I buy one of those microscopes with a USB digital camera attached.

At least that shot shows how shiny the Aoto got my knife though...  I suspect that the individual stone I received might be way finer than 2000 grit.

I used to do this (convex edge) intentionally on my pocket knives because I used those things like axes half the time, cutting tent stakes etc.  I also did it intentionally to my cleaver.  The knives I try to sharpen at a completely flat razorlike bevel, but I just can't seem to manage it yet.  Maybe with a little more practice...

From what I can see on Google searches, Henckels and Wusthof are at about 55-57, Global are at 56-58, and Tojiros are at 60-61.  Do you think it might be worth it to attempt an asymmetrical edge on the Global?


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I've used this 8" Wusthof for years with a 15/15 bevel and it works fine. German steel is "soft" but the J-knife crowd makes it sound like the steel is made from butter and bacon fat. The edge on an 8" Wusthof will hold up just fine with this angle, because there is so much steel backing the edge.... I wouldn't try anything less than 15 degrees but it will do just fine at that angle - in a commercial environment or at home...


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

The question is of course, if 15/15 (30 total) works just fine, would it take 12/12 (24 total)?  And if that works, would it take 10/10 (20 total)?

I think I will play around by using the knife normally, and pushing it a tiny little bit each time it actually gets dull and I actually do a full resharpening, until I start running into problems.  If I notice a significant change in the time period between required resharpening or an actual collapse in the blade, I'll just grind he whole thing back to the previous angle.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Cap, it has more to do with how damn wide the knife is . . . If it goes to such a tiny point from a huge wedge - It will "split" things in half, not really cut them in half.

I would say a Wusthof knife could take a 10-degree angle IF it was only used on and never left the comfort of your butcher block. The edge would ravel on the first peppercorn or bone you hit however.

It will be fun to play with, sure, I just used 15/15 because that is what I have on ALL of my double-bevel knives. (I have a Global paring knife that's a 10/10 however)

And the 15/15 angle, for the width of the blade, all works together and makes sense, and is durable.

It is the fact I also keep a 15/15 on my J-knives that would be more of a reason to banish me from the knife forums... for a German knife - hell, do-it-up, man... : )



Capsaicin said:


> The question is of course, if 15/15 (30 total) works just fine, would it take 12/12 (24 total)? And if that works, would it take 10/10 (20 total)?
> 
> I think I will play around by using the knife normally, and pushing it a tiny little bit each time it actually gets dull and I actually do a full resharpening, until I start running into problems. If I notice a significant change in the time period between required resharpening or an actual collapse in the blade, I'll just grind he whole thing back to the previous angle.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Most German knives won't go much more acute than a 20* angle without the edge collapsing. That is, it bends out of true and requires steeling to straighten it. In my experience, 15* is far more trouble than it's worth. This is a function of the interaction of the materials properties, "strength" and "toughness." We sort of shortcut the discussion by using Rockwell "C" hardness as a metaphor -- but remember that although hardness is helpful it's only a metaphor and is inexact; and that furthermore "C" hardness (indentation hardness) is the least relevant type. The collapse will occur cutting onions and parsley on the board -- you don't need any special abuse. In fact, that's almost definitional in the idea of "too acute," as any edge will roll or chip when it's abused.

Anyway, the Germans tend to be relatively soft and you're better off sharpening relatively obtuse, durable and abuse resistant angle. And if durability and abuse resistance aren't that isn't the greatest part of their charm, I don't know what is.

If you want to max the performance on a Wustie, Henckels, or Lamson, you can thin the blade to 15* and sharpen a 20* double bevel on top of that. It's not easy to do freehand -- but that doesn't mean it isn't doable. It's somewhat easier if you just "micro-bevel" the primary. Since you're going to be using a steel relatively frequently, it doesn't pay to put too much polish on the knife. Even the finest steel will create some scuff.

No matter how sharp or acute you get a German, you'll never get it to perform at the same "fall though" level you can with a Japanese made knife or a French carbon. As Trooper said, the German style, stainless blades are just too thick. But... Let's get one thing straight. There's nothing wrong with a 20* edge. It's plenty sharp to cut brunoise and portion fish. Billions of great meals have been prepared with them so hold on to your sense of perspective and remember where the real bottom line lies.

Finally: *You can NOT sharpen more acutely bit by bit*. It's all or nothing. On the other hand, you can go the other way incrementally. If you need me to explain the geometry for you, I'll be happy to do so; but I'm betting you can think it through relatively easily yourself and that doing so will help the way you think about sharpening geometries in general far better than others' explanations.

BDL


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Well, my unintentional convex edge might help a little with the bending, but I also suspect that it is preventing me from achieving that perfect razor edge.  Maybe it just can't be done with a knife this thick...  I will try it with the Global.

The Wusthoff should now be 15 on one side and 20 or so on the other.  So far no problems with that, but apparently 15/15 works too, so maybe I was not as aggressive as I thought I was being.

The thing is I don't actually know what angle the thing is at, precisely...  I wish I remembered enough high school geometry to calculate it from the width of the bevel.

Oh btw all this talk got me thinking and Googling my old butcher knife -- from photos and descriptions on vintage pieces on ebay and elsewhere, I believe it was a Forgecraft -- the shape was very unique, with a scimitar curve just on the last couple of inches, no bulge at the end but a nice graceful curve.  From all indication they've been out of business for decades.  I read all kinds of stuff about people who have been using their knives since the fifties or before, through generations.  That is really cool.  I really wish there were more companies like that still around making things that good old fashioned way.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You're laboring with some very basic misunderstandings about sharpening. I'm not saying you can't sharpen a perfectly good edge without being able to conceptualize the geometries and the process, but some degree of understanding is a big help to most people.

Get yourself some graph paper and/or a protractor and draw yourself some huge angles. Do multiple pictures and set them around your sharpening area so your eyes help but light on one. You can use those to compare your knife angles -- close enough. As a bonus, your wife will think you're nuts.

With a "V" edge -- which is the type of edge you're sharpening -- it's almost always to sharpen both sides to the same angle(s). If for no other reason than it makes steeling and re-sharpening easier. But it also makes for a stronger edge. Sharpening to equal angles is true for all but the most asymmetric of edges.

The sharpness of your edge has very little to do with the angles. You can sharpen a very, very sharp edge to very obtuse angles. By way of example, shaving with an axe or a cleaver is a trick a lot of sharpeners use to showcase their skills. My "chef de chef" (a 12" carbon Sab) is sharpened to a 20* over 25* double bevel and when it's fresh off the stones will cut through chicken wings _by accident -- _that is, just resting the knife on the bird and answering the phone. That's not only pretty darn sharp, I daresay it's sharper than any knife you've ever used. The point being not only are there other aspects besides angles, but that the angles themselves aren't even that important. My feeling is that you're overemphasizing them.

You want your edge angles to be as acute as your knife will hold -- but no more acute than that. Err on the side of obtuseness or you'll be using your steel every time you use your knife. In other words, too often. When you're trying to sharpen the "best" edge, there's always some tension between absolute sharpness and durability. Try not to tip too far over to one side. Your Globals do fine at 15*, your Germans at 20* and that's just hunky-dory. Don't try to turn a Henckels into a Tadatsuna. They aren't built to be the same and you can't make it so on the stones. For that matter, you can't make a Global act like a Tadatsuna. Although Globals are made and designed and Japan, as a result of their width and alloy they act as much like German made knives as Japanese. If you're want a knife that performs like one of the Japanese "lasers," I'm afraid you'll need to buy one.

As I wrote earlier if you want to optimize the performance you can try a double bevel -- but for most knives that represents a lot of work for a smallish improvement. But as long as you're not too aggressive about thinning, you're not going to hurt anything by trying. Also, at the risk of setting the cart before the horse, you can make the double bevel process more efficient by "micro-beveling" the primary (cutting) edge angle. If you were doing 20/15 for instance, that would mean sharpening the edge to 15* going all the way through your stone set, then using your fine stones only for a few strokes to sharpen and polish the 20*. It's not quite as durable as a true double bevel, but will stand up quite a bit longer than using an edge that's otherwise too acute.

I have the feeling that you still don't get that you can't sharpen a 15* angle over a 20* angle without completely re-profiling the knife. If you try you'll only sharpen the top of the bevel without the cutting edge ever touching the stone. You might need to try the "Magic Maker trick" just to get some idea of how angles work. If you haven't already tried it, now is a great time to start.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Thank you for the suggestion.  I'll try that with the graph paper to figure out exactly what angles these are.  But with the slight imperfections in my technique, the bevel is not completely flat, and it may not be all that precise.

I DO understand that I need to grind a bevel all the way to the edge to change the angle and reprofile the knife.  I already did it on all of my knives.  I THINK I have a 15/20 now on the Wusthof, but am not exactly sure -- the factory edge has a bevel that still showed individual grit lines, so I smoothed it out, at about the same angle, with the 1000 grit stone.  When I ground the other side down to approximately double the bevel width, I smoothed both sides out on the 2000+.  I am waiting on the Takenoko that I just ordered to go the next step.

Also, if the angles themselves do not tell the whole story, how do I make my knives sharper?  I am moderately skilled (though far from perfect) with freehanding, which I quite enjoy, but now I think I'm in a whole new level of sharpness here -- I just got my Tojiro petty in the mail, and HOLY CRAP IT IS SHARP.  It looked so sharp I tried a trick I saw on a Youtube video once that someone did with a razor -- hold a strand of hair to the edge.  In the Youtube video, the hair fell into two pieces just being pushed against the edge.  The Tojiro didn't quite do that -- the hair stayed in one piece when I just touched it to the edge -- but when I blew on the hair, it fell into two pieces.  It just needed a little bit of encouragement.

Now I really want a proper laser -- 12 inches of what this thing has.  But I also want to know how to put the edge on myself.  I would also buy a Sabatier if I can find a real one that was made in France.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You make your knives sharper by sharpening flat, even bevels, "chasing the burr" to a fare-thee-well, thoroughly deburring, and sharpening (and maintaining) a well trued edge.  In addition, you can enhance performance and convenience by polishing to appropriate levels, profiling to appropriate angles and using an appropriate steel as necessary. 

Assuming you're using an appropriate steel, I find it helps to use a steel as part of the deburring process.  Not only does it help get the burr off and create a fine, new metal edge, but it trues as well.  However, you don't want to use the steel once you've started polishing the edge because even the finest rod hone will do some scuffing and -- if over used -- increase the likelihood of chipping.

The Tojiro factory edge, is pretty good (especially as Japanese knives go) but you can do better.  In your case it's most likely a question of holding your angles steady.  It takes a lot of practice before your wrist develops an appropriate muscle memory -- even longer if you're sharpening several different angles.

You're much better off sharpening both sides to the same angle.  Different angles weaken the edge, making it more prone to rolling and chipping.  Also, it's incredibly annoying to have to change angles with every stroke on your rod hone.

Using the same angles doesn't mean the symmetry is going to be equal.  For instance, you can have the edge angles the same, but one bevel twice as wide as the other.  If you did, your symmetry ratio would be 66/34 -- which most knife guys would shorthand as 70/30 or 60/40.  If you're going to use a steel as part of your maintenance regimen, it's better to not go much beyond 60/40.  In other words, twice as wide but err on the side of caution.

Appropriate asymmetry makes a knife act sharper.  Whether or not it actually is sharper is more a question of language than use.  Much like acuity, the more asymmetric the edge the less durable it will be -- for the same reasons different angles weaken the edge.  There are also issues with "steering" which tend to come up if there are two users of different "handedness," if the knife is highly asymmetric, or if the user has a tight or overhand grip.

Consequently, you have to determine what degree of asymmetry is appropriate for you rather than just pushing it to some magic number.  Still, most users seem to find 60/40 represents a pretty good balance.  For the little a personal example is worth, I sharpen the knives my wife (right-handed) and I (southpaw) share to a 60/40 right handed edge. 

The reason asymmetry with equal angles is better than differing angles, is that there's some practical advantage to asymmetry.

A lot of Sabatiers are made in France.  I don't think you get much value from one of the stainless knives, but the carbons are wonderful.  K-Sabatier and Thiers-Issard are two makers whose knives are easy to get in the U.S., and when you're ready to buy we can get specific.

If you're interested in a "laser," you might want to read my review of the Konosuke HD to get some idea of what's involved.  While I think choosing a knife by Rockwell hardness is usually not the smartest thing to do, you don't really want to get into a knife that thin unless it's made from something harder than 60 RCH (because you'll be sharpening to such a high degree of asymmetry in order to enhance the already unbelievable sharpness) you won't be maintaining on a rod.  Consequently, the universe of lasers -- never that large -- further restricted.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm sure that the Konosuke would be awesome, but I don't know that I want to mess with the high end stuff just yet.  I think I will practice on the Tojiro I have for a while and get my sharpening technique up to par before I move up the ladder -- no sense spending $300 on a knife that *can* be a laser if I can't sharpen it to that point.

Hopefully the Yen-Dollar rate will have calmed down and the knives will be cheaper by then.

Is there already a thread on waterstone sharpening technique for Japanese knives?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's a topic that's been covered many times.  The current state of advice is to watch the videos on Chef Knives To Go, they're pretty good if not excellent.  Bear in mind that there are a lot of good ways to sharpen knives -- including a lot of good ways to sharpen them on water stones. I keep threatening to write a pamphlet, but haven't got around to it.  I'm a pretty good sharpener and pretty good at communicating sharpening technique, but I'm by no means the only good source nor are my methods particularly powerful.  In other words, becoming good is going to involve a certain amount of picking, choosing, mixing, matching, sorting through conflicting advice (all of which may be very good) and finding your own way... so be tolerant of the learning curve. 

You want to start by prepping your stones properly.  That means lapping them in the same way you would if you were flattening, and chamfering or nosing over all eight edges and corners.

I suggest learning the processes of raising a burr and deburring as the easiest and most efficient way not only to sharpen but to learn to sharpen.  Start with a medium coarse stone -- about 1K grit level (according to the Japanese standard), then when you can consistently raise a burr and chase it, move up to a medium fine -- about 3 - 6K or so.  When you can consistently get the knife sharper on the medium fine, you're ready to add a coarse stone for occasional profiling and repair, and an ultra fine stone (if you want one)  for polishing.  There's no need to jump into buying a lot of stones until you can use the heart of the kit.

Ask lots of questions.

BDL


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Maybe it would be better to just tell you what I already know.

I started freehanding at 11 with my boy scout knife, in exact accordance with the Boy Scout Manual(C).  The instructions were to run the blade along the stone at ~30 degrees, blade first, in single strokes (one direction only), being sure to give the same strokes to each side.

I found the edge that this technique gave the boy scout knife inferior to the one that a crappy hand sharpening thingie gave our carbon butcher knife and experimented quite a bit, ultimately settling on single strokes away from the edge at about 22-25 degrees being the most that that thing would hold.  It was a first lesson in how different metals take and hold edges differently (boy scout knives are full of chromium, I later learned).  I also got used to sharpening with a slight convex because I found that I could get the metal to sustain a sharper edge than it otherwise would given its softness.

I tried the same technique with the carbon butcher at a better angle and got it so sharp my mom was a little scared of it.  Unfortunately, every time it cut a lemon or something acidic, or was left in the sink unwashed, or was otherwise abused, the edge would deteriorate.  Another lesson in metal behavior.

Later, when I bought better knives and a real sharpening stone, I used the same technique.  I didn't know what a burr was but was able to develop it each time and feel it with my thumb -- I thought it was a result of some defect in  my technique -- and it led me to use progressively lighter pressure and fewer strokes as I sharpened to try to get rid of it, until I got it small enough to polish off with old newspaper or cardboard.

But my technique remained the singe stroke, back of the knife first method, which I found very effective.  It sharpened quickly enough, allowed me to run the whole length of the blade along the stone in each stroke regardless of the size as long as I angled it, and also allowed me to easily put a smooth convex edge on the blade if I wanted to.  The resulting edge is a better than factory edge for my Henckels chef knife but inferior to the Global factory edge.  And the edge is all scraped up because I only used a cheap twosided rough/very rough stone, that got wet only because I was rinsing off the metal particles that came off the blade as I used it.

It was also part of the reason that I never flattened my stone before (in addition to the fact that the cheap stone is really, really durable).  If you only ever do the back-first stroke, the dish didn't matter much.

And this was the same technique I used for many years, until just a month or so ago, when I saw the Global videos on how to sharpen.  Until that time I was unhappy that I could not get my Global to the factory edge with my technique.  Now, using much more acute angles, the two stroke technique (back and forth), working with the slurry on a 1000 grit King and an Aoto natural I currently put a better edge on my Henckels chef than factory, and comparable on the Global factory edge.  But then I got the Tojiro and realized that there is a whole other level of sharpness, maybe more, that I want to try for.

So...  Here is my question:  why is the two stroke technique preferred with water stones?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Your question is based on a false premise.  In law we'd say "Objection.  Assumes facts not in evidence." 

What you're calling the two stroke is working better for you at the moment, but it isn't inherently superior.  Why it's seems to work so much better for you than other styles is an open question.  Some of the advantages are:  It promotes sectioning; allows (relatively) easy pressure control; pulling a wire (aka "draws a burr") quickly, and works up a good slurry fairly quickly. 

I almost always use it on my coarser stones -- whether water or oil -- when first pulling the wire, but move on to length of blade strokes for chasing the wire.  Also, I usually use length of the blade strokes (and a very light touch) for polishing -- when I'm not trying to draw a burr at all.

Most likely your success and limitations as a sharpener are based on some combination of the quality of your burr creation and deburring; and the quality of your bevels. 

You want that burr very fine and flopping from side to side before you deburr.  You want to deburr completely -- leaving a very fine (no chips) edge.

You want the bevel shoulders to be an equal width down the length of the knife from heel to tip (although you can allow them to widen a bit close to the point).  That means your bevel angle is constant and without any high or low spots.  High and low spots are a very bad thing. 

You can test for them -- and see them easily -- using the Magic Marker Test. 

It might help you to conceptualize the ideal cross section of a knife edge as a "V," and the ideal cross section of a knife edge with a burr as a "Y," or better still, a "y."  You want to bend the burr back and forth so that it breaks very cleanly and evenly where the legs of the "V" (should) meet.  The thinner you get the burr and the more often you fold it back and forth across the same crease, the cleaner it will come off.  That makes for a very sharp edge.  You're probably not doing that as well as it can be done.

Uneven bevels -- resulting from imperfect angle holding more often than not -- also rob the edge of its potential.  The more perfect your bevels the sharper and more durable the edge.  These two things -- a fine edge, and even bevels along the length of the knife -- are about the only areas where absolute sharpness and durability go together.

To help you out:  Unless you're very good at seeing the bevel shoulders, use the Magic Marker test.  I know it seems very "beginner," but it's nice to go back once in a while and get a good look at what you're doing.  The "Bic test" is also very revealing, especially in terms of micro-chipping -- which takes us back to how well you deburr.  At some level of experience you tend to abandon most of the "objective" tests in favor of thumb dragging and glint testing -- but getting back to basics is never a bad idea. 

Again -- the Tojiro factory edge might seem like a revelation now, but you can do better. 

BDL


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

Sorry for butting in, but

I know idea of using the magic marker, but what's the "bic" test?


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I think you misunderstood my question, BDL.  Let me state it more clearly:  I understand that there are probably pros and cons to each technique, and am trying to figure out the pluses of the two stroke method.  I have found some good points and problems with it already, but am looking to learn more -- there must be significant reasons why it is almost universally preferred by Japanese craftsmen.

Also, if you will lookat my question more closely, you'll see that what I asked was not why it is is "superior" but why it is "preferred."

I suspect that the slurry is a part of the answer.  I still end the sessions on each individual stone with a few single-direction backwards strokes, but these just wipe the slurry off the stone almost completely, like a squeegee.  If I only did that throughout, I would hardly have any slurry on the stone through the session.

As for which is superior on the whole, it's hard to tell because I switched to the double stroke method at the same time that I got the finer stone and also started to attempt more acute angles.  I should have isolated the variables to observe the differences each made.  I just thought that that was the "correct" way to use waterstones.  I do find that it works faster and keeps the slurry on the stone, but I also find that every now and again I would end up with a little mismatch between sections which I never used to get with the one stroke, diagonal method.  This happens more often at the tip where the blade curves.

Some other disadvantages I have found are that it concentrates the wear more on the stone -- with the single stroke, more of the stone is used, and the stone gets worn more evenly.  WIth the double stroke, the center of the stone gets used a lot, more heavily on the side facing away from you.  This requires that one rotate the stone periodically.  The last half inch to an inch is hardly ever used at all and just gets taken off in flattening.  It also seems to make the stone more prone to gouging by the tip, which was never a problem for me before.

But I figure that the people more experienced with them must know more pros and cons -- and how to take advantage of or avoid them -- than these.  So, that is the full question: what are the advantages of the two stoke method over the one stroke?  And what are the disadvantages?  And what can I do to maximize my performance with the two stroke method?  My main problems at this time are that I 1) am not always able to maintain an absolutely consistent angle for a razor-type, completely straight bevel with no convex at all, and  2) also sometimes end up with spots with more or less wear on the blade -- if you look at the photos I posted, there are places, especially where the sections sharpened overlap, that seem to wear more than the rest.  I am experimenting with avoiding this by using a progressive movement (lines representing the movement of the knife):

|\|\|\|\|\

...and moving the knife steadily from heel to tip, instead of the straight back and forth and then move the knife movement:

||||  (move the knife)  |||| (move the knife) ||||

...but so far it has proven ineffective because it makes it even harder to maintain a consistent, convex-free angle.

I am beginning to think that I might want to build a wooden rack, like the Japanese sword polishers use -- the one that is raised on an inclined surface so that the level at which the blade meets the stone is visible at all times -- so I can eyeball the angle against the stone at all times, instead of relying only on muscle memory.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Cap, are you a lefty? It looks to me as though the left bevel is now quite a bit wider than the right, which is how you sharpen a knife asymmetrically for a lefty. I'm just checking.

As to the "two-stroke" method, as you call it, yes, it's about mud. The mud is what makes Japanese-style waterstones work so wonderfully, and you need to go back and forth to keep from just pushing (or pulling) all the mud off as you go. As you say, one big disadvantage is that you work the stone unevenly and make it dish, which is partly the method and partly the fact that the mud is coming from the stone, wearing it away. If you want to invest a lot of money, there are various natural stones that wear very, very slowly, but they cost a mint.

I would advise against the angle-switching technique you're proposing. I think you'll end up with inconsistent sharpening angles. You will certainly end up with irregular scratching, but that's pretty minor all things considered.

Note that you can gain some advantages, insofar as wear and evenness and such are concerned, by using a Japanese-style sharpening box, which looks sort of like a shoe-shine box backwards. You put it over a sink, and the stone is angled away from you, with the far side lower than the near. I forget the angle -- I could look it up if you want, but I think it's about 10 degrees or so. When you sharpen this way, the push-stroke doesn't dig in so much, and the pull-stroke digs in more, and that sort of evens things out. I have never used one of these things, but it would be easy enough to build if you want to give it a whirl.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

I am right handed...  I think I might have sharpened it wrong for asym. profiling...  Since I use it for the heavier work, I haven't noticed much of a difference in drift though.

I will lean on the other side in future sharpenings and it will eventually come back to an even split.  Or maybe I'll just redo the whole thing next time I sharpen.  Trooper has his at 15/15 and he uses his for work, so mine should be fine at that angle.  So far it's held up at 15/20 (by my best estimate -- I tried to follow the factory edge on one side and I read that the Germans come at 20...  SO if I followed it right, that's what it is).

The sharpening box sounds like what I ws talking about, but the angle is different.  From what I can remember, the combination of the incline and height is enough so that sharpener can look at where the blade meets the stone -- the space between the spine of the knife and the stone -- very easily, so that the angle can be controlled and monitored both through sight and touch -- one of the frustrating things about sharpening on the flat waterstone is that I lose the visual cues I used to have when I held the stone in one hand and ran the knife up with the other. 

For now I think I will experiment with just using a board placed in my sink on an incline.  Hard to do with the heaviest stones though.


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