# The use of the title Chef



## chefhow

I was having a conversation with a vendor of mine the other day and the use of the term/title Chef came up. I had mentioned that I felt in the US we give any and every person who graduates from culinary school the term without putting in the time. I also said that I felt I was just an over glorified cook since that is what I really love to do and that a true chef, someone who REALLY KNOW'S THEIR STUFF, in my eyes, is someone who could pass the Master Chef exam thru the ACF, which I know I couldnt at this time. I have worked for/with a few of the Chef's who have both passed and failed and its not something that I really aspire to do at this point in my career.

What are everyones thoughts on this? What do you consider to be a Chef?

I think that all of us know what and where the term Chef comes from, what I want to know is if you think it should be a title that is given to those who have TRULY earned it or just a description of what we do?


----------



## just jim

If you have the ability and the responsibility, you should be able to call yourself whatever you want, whether it be Chef or Grand Wizard Of All Things Culinary.
I always say I'm a cook by trade, a chef by responsiblity.
You can call me %$#@! as long as you do it respectfully.
Likewise, calling me chef while spitting venom does nothing for me.
I do see the difference between a chef and a certified chef, and I see how we've blurred the lines.
A high percentage of culinary graduates call themselves chefs.
I've even had an applicant with no culinary experience say they "chef at home", so the term is definitely losing some of it's original meaning.
Bottom line: the chef is the chief.
If you're the chief of your kitchen, you are the chef.

Just my 2 cents.
Spend it as you wish.


----------



## rivver

If you have the ability to run a restaurant, create menus, price, teach staff, run succesful events and most importantly have a loyal customer base then I feel you can call yourself a chef.

If you have someone else create menus, price and rely on 50% or more premade food but still run the operation, then I would say that person would be a kitchen manager. Im surrounded by those type of places,sadly. 

I know a guy that calls himself a "chef" He worked at a seafood place and he would always brag about how busy and good his food is. I stopped by to see him and check out his operation..... First thing I saw was him cutting open a bag of white funk and dumping it into a big pot. I asked what the **** that was, he replied "New England Clam Chowder" Yuck! Then I looked around and saw cans of premades every where, from marinara, peanut sauce, to even tomato basil soup! WTF I said to myself. Im sorry but if a "chef" cant make a tomato basil soup within 30 minutes from scratch then our industry has major issues. Frozen fish, shrimp already in marnades, stuffed fish, crab cakes everything was made in a factory and bought in. And what blows me away is he did almost 250 covers that night!


----------



## foodpump

This has been debated in countless forums. Here's my ake:

A Chef is the Boss, the manager of the kitchen. Period.

Forget about Chefs and cooks for a minute, lets talk about hockey. Wayne Gretzky was a good NHL player. Now he's a coach. His job is to hire, fire, train, supervise, encourage, discipline, guide, and mentor his team. He could not do this, nor win the respect of his team, had he not been an NHL player.

The Chef is the one who hires, fires, trains, coaches, disciplines, encourages, frequently cooks, does the paperwork, guides and mentors his team, er... brigade. S/he can not do this if they have not been a cook-- a good cook, can't instruct if they haven't done it a million times themselves, can't earn respect of their brigade if they can't instruct or supervise.

If you can mnore or less accept what I have written, then culinary schools do NOT produce Chefs, they produce culinary school graduates.

In Europe, things are different., It is no shame to call yourself a cook. Indeed, after a 3 year apprenticeship, you are proud to call yourself an apprenticed cook--not a "Chef", but a Cook. And if your head swells too much, you look at your certificate, it states "Cook", not "Chef"

The word Chef has been so abused by the media and culinary schools, that it is an embarassment. It's also a verb now too, "Cheffing". "I Chef at the Dine-o-might", "Do you wear your Chef's whites when you're Cheffing?"

O.K. off my soap box, time to go back to work.....


----------



## chrisandcindy

I have spent many years running kitchens and cooking and I agree the term "chef" is used loosely today. In my book a chef is in charge of the kitchen or a part of the kitchen and has the final say in how foods are prepared and purchased. They also have to have the business sense to operate the kitchen within a budget. Being able to cook is only part of the job a true chef does.


----------



## phaedrus

I consider "chef" to mean "head of the kitchen." But we do throw the term around too liberally. If you run the kitchen at a Denny's and just open bags and boxes, should you be called the Chef? I dunno...technically you're still head of the kitchen. Ideally you should have some culinary credentials and be an expert in all relevant skills to deserve the title.


----------



## ras1187

We were doing a new menu tasting for the RVP, GM, VP of F&B, and other various big heads within the company.

The big heads brought in their key chef, a pretty well-known guy in the downtown area from one of our related hotels. He helped oversee the tasting to make sure everything went ok. He definitely knew his stuff about food. All his dishes were spot on.

BUTTT... the problem was that he was a mess. He made hummus on one prep table, splattered roasted pepper and chickpea puree all over the station, then moved to another one tocut vegetables. He left all the vegetable scraps scattered along the cutting board and prep area before moving to another areq to make tempura batter. Batter and flour all over my station that again he walked away from without even making an attempt to clean.

Now yes hes well known and everyone is all *bows down* to him when he walks around, but I don't know if I can consider anyone that works that messy to be a chef. I consider myself to be pretty sloppy also, so when someone's sloppiness outdoes me, especially a supposed chef of this calibur, I really feel disappointed.

Sorry if this wasnt particularly related to the thread, but just needed to rant a little bit. History/Definition of the word = Chief of the kitchen from what I understand. Unless you actulaly have a kitchen that you are chief of, you are not a chef.


----------



## bughut

I've graduated college with"chefs" i wouln't allow to feed my dog (even they were amazed they got through)

I've worked with un-qualified genius's (genii?)

I went on an ego trip when i qualified for a while, just cos i had done it. Ithought it was my right to be called chef.

I considered myself a chef even before my late-in -life qualifying. (big head)


Its a touchy subject. We see Celebrity "chefs" on tv. Most arnt qualified, and rely on Charismato blag their hyped up salaries.

Then there's joe bloggs down the road who's run a brigade for 25 years. (We all know a place like it) Not a qualification between them. and thats where you want to eat. He may not get "yes chef" yelled at him every 2 minutes. but he jolly well has it in the hat. He and everyone else knows whos chef.

I could go on and on (and often do iknow) but surely its a respect thing. Your own and that of you peers, subordinates and the public that class a good chef


----------



## rolls4eggrolls

The term "chef" should be valued. I don't care if you paid 60k to learn how to make pate's and know the difference between olive and peanut oil. It takes EXPERIENCE. Students coming out of culinary schools these days have their head up their @$$ thinking they can work for anyone and get paid $$$. Too much ego...not enough talent or heart.


----------



## foodpump

That's because the word "Chef" is a "replacement" for cook. Everyone wants to be a chief, not an Indian.


----------



## left4bread

THESE ARE MY OPINIONS. DON'T TAKE THEM TO HEART. I'VE BEEN DRINKING.

I agree that the word is thrown around too casually, 
and I feel that the term should take into consideration the caliber of food being prepared. 
Most of my duties would be the duties that a chef would perform, but the food being served is, honestly, glorified pub fare. 
We're really busy and keep getting busier so the menu keeps getting dumbed down. People like it, but it's not a menu that I would walk into a job interview with. I would, however walk into a job interview and explain how I leveled out FC and helped make the place more fluid and productive.

For this forum, I chose "restaurant manager" and I think the title fits better than "chef".

So, *to me*, a chef would be someone who: 
sacrifices their social life and marries their job,
works ungodly hours, 
can plan tomorrow's unexpected 5 course dinner for 30 people in their head while cleaning out the **** grease trap, 
is always pushing the envelope with specials and menus, 
drinks too much, 
is aware of and implements culinary trends (except for that foam fad, yuck) into their menus,
7-10 years holding "chef" position,
Also, you should have spent at least a years working in a dish pit.
And I like the idea of a chef being a working chef. Otherwise you're just administration (like me ). I do the ordering and food costing and a myriad of other things that take up my whole day, but I rarely... RARELY pick up a knife. All my knives are at home collecting dust.

It really bugs me when friends call me a chef. "Learned cook" or "somewhat knowledgeable cook" would be more accurate.

Hey, I'm no chef. Just a restaurant manager who has been in the biz for 20+ years.
Worked Foh and BoH. I don't expect to be agreed with. I've still got a lot to learn. But *to me*, this is what a chef is.
Hope I don't sound like an idiot.


----------



## schuster

Even when I was the exec at my previous job, I never considered myself a chef. To me, a chef is the guy who always has the answer to everything and knows how to make anything and make it well. I still feel slightly uneasy when servers at my current job refer to me as a chef (I'm not the exec there). I'd guess that I will never willingly call myself a chef, no matter how much I learn, because there is always something I don't know, and by my own criteria, I'll still just be a cook.

That said, I have met exactly two people in my life who I would willingly call "chef". The exec before me at my previous job, and the exec at my current job. I will not even refer to the sous at my current job as "chef". Respect for tradition is one thing, earning respect through a very high degree of ability is another. The sous is very good, but I still know quite a few things that he hasn't grasped yet. If I know something that you don't, you don't deserve to be called "chef" in my eyes.


----------



## nick.shu

Tis an interesting question. With regards to capabilities, it would be down to how one faced challenges. Ive seen people fold and people thrive under pressure situations.

I havent been an Exec nor a Exec Sous. Thats not to say that I couldnt be, just that i couldnt be bothered to this stage. My main focus is going in and helping people out, regardless of cooking styles or function. 

The way I look at it, the more I gain experience, the better I can be. After passing through 150 kitchens in 5 years, I think that I can pass as a Chef.

After all, if people who own establishments feel fit to fly me around Australia to cook at in their kitchens, then there must be some value attached to my services.


----------



## peachcreek

My focus has always been to know my craft and trade: To that end I've attained the title of "Kitchen Putz". I'll even answer to "Culinary Goof"...Or, "Hey! You in the Kitchen!!" Or best yet, just call me Tom.


----------



## just jim

That's a hard line to hold.
Considering that there is always something to learn, and that there is always someone who knows something that someone else doesn't (especially when you factor in regional cuisines), no one would ever be called Chef, by your standards.


----------



## ed buchanan

Jim! agree !
I have been in this business for over 45 years , have worked in the worst and the best , for the worst and the best The US and Abroad. I still learn something new every day. The day I don't then I won't do it anymore or I'll be deceased.:lol:


----------



## foodpump

Me too.....

I remember watching Vancouver's Rob Feenie win the "Iron Chef" in Japan a few years back. Watched him put raw Kiwis in with gelatin, knew it wouldn't gel. Knew this from exprience, the hard way, same enzyme in fresh Kiwis, figs, pineapple, and papaya that stops the gelatin from gelling.

Knowledge is NOT finite, there's somethng new every day to learn. 

The day I can say I know everything pertaining to food or cooking in general, is the day the doctors strip my body of usable parts, and stuff what's left of me into a coffin.....


----------



## chefa1a

an old boss years back told me:

it takes all your life to learn how to cook

and 15 minutes to become a chef (basically a job interview)

*anyone can hold the title ,*

whether they are slinging buffalo wings in their small make shift kitchen in a pub, pureeing soup and entrees for people in a nursing home or commanding the brigade in a Michelin restaurant

but having the skills to perform your job well and command respect is what makes a good chef

there is definitely a blurred line now everyone thinks they are a chef

and anyone armed with a few squeeze bottles and the latest Art Culinaire
is a dangerous combination with out some solid training

now more than ever it comes down to can you balance your food and labor costs

with operating expenses higher than ever , it is crucial to run a tight ship

I tell young guys getting in the business expect alot of hard work before you become a chef


----------



## r hill

Hold on Buddy,
 I'm a retried chef of forty-five years of dedicated service with a very strict respect for tradition that is hardly known today, I have worked 15 years of my younger life in France to learn the old ways and have fought my way all my life. I have been cooking most likely before you were born and It's pretty sad you think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I love what I have done and I support all the new and upcoming chefs.

R Hill
Oceanside,Ca


----------



## schuster

Wow I started up a bit of fireworks with this one. Fitting for the holiday I suppose? I was coming off a rough day and didn't really think about what I was saying....

What I meant was "If I personally know something that you don't at this point in my career, you don't deserve to be called "chef" in my eyes."

I'm a good line cook and ok cook otherwise, but I don't think I'm at all the best thing since sliced bread. Pretty far from it. At this point in my career, I consider myself a growing novice. I know a lot, but I have at least 100 times more to learn. If a chef doesn't know something simple that should be common knowledge to a "chef" such as temperatures of proteins, the difference between various common herbs, basic flavor pairings, stuff like that... then they don't deserve to be called chef, even if their position says they are.

Does that clear the air a bit?


----------



## ed buchanan

What I meant was "If I personally know something that you don't at this point in my career, you don't deserve to be called "chef" in my eyes." Schuster'

Making a blanket statement like this on this site could possibly get you into trouble. Some people on this sight could possibly ask you questions that you may not even have heard of, never mind answering. Ego is both bad and good. No one knows everything.


----------



## jimmyb.

A few responders to this thread have touched on the "definition" of _Chef. _I'm a culinary school grad, also with an advanced degree in hospitality management; have 15 years on the line and in the kitchen. Do I call myself a chef? It depends on the job description. The word Chef is French for Chief, or person in charge. Nothing more, nothing less. So, the person in charge of a particular kitchen is the chef of that kitchen; likewise, the person in charge of a station is the chef of that station. Therefore, if using proper grammar, one should ask: Are you *THE* chef vs. *A* chef? One may be the chef of their restaurant or kitchen, but once they step into someone else's kitchen, they are no _longer "the chef_". When I meet people for the first time, and we get to "What do you do?", I am often asked: "So, are you a chef?" If I try to go through my little explanation, I usually lose them. So, I'll sometimes just say "Ya", and save the stress. To answer the question that I posed at the top of the paragraph: "Do I call myself a chef?" Currently the answer is no. I'm now in F&B Management for a resort and therefore not currently active in the kitchen. Even though the entire kitchen staff is under my direction, I don't use the term. Because of my years in the kitchen, some staff refer to me as chef. I try to correct them; sometimes with success, sometimes without. We have a chef de cuisine running our kitchen...we call her "Chef".

_For those who dance: Sissonne Greetings._


----------



## chefraz

this has been discussed countless times on this forum, and with nothing new being added. So I won't be adding my 2 cents. But Just want to say hi everybody.


----------



## foodpump

Shuster, we're going around in circles here.

Look, I'll ask a quick question and I need a knee-jerk answer, ok.?

What's the capitol of California?

Knee-jerk answer: Sacremento

No one's asking if Sacremento *should * be the capitol, or why L.A. or Sanfrancisco isn't.

A Chef is the boss, the manger, period.

In highschool I had some good teachers and some really lousy ones. Ones who couldn't control a class and would hunker down in their desk, afraid to move or talk; ones who had the entire semester of physics on 4 rolls of overhead projector film and would mumble infront of the screen with the lights off--a 15/30/30 record. That is to say, within 15 minutes the teacher had the entire class of 30 students asleep. Yet, I still refer to these teachers as teachers--incompetant as they were. They were hired as teachers, paid as teachers, and expected to teach the curriculum.

A Chef is the boss, the manager, period. Whether they are good or not doesn't affect their title--thier length of employement, sure, but not the title.

Am I making any sense?


----------



## olliensam

OK - there is the chef - generally titiled the Executive Chef. Then there is/are the Sous chefs. Would you call them 'chef' as well??? In many cases the Sous Chef shares responsibilities with the Executive Chef so how can you justify calling one Chef and the other by, say, their first name? Just curious.


----------



## ed buchanan

Under the Brigade system in the classic French kitchen , the sous chef is in charge when the exec. or chef d cuisine is not there. He is always second in command at all times . He also assist the chef d partie(station chefs) or in some cases he is also the chef d partie depending on size of kitchen. n the classic french kitchen every one in charge of a station is called chef, example. Chef Garde Manger, Chef Potage, Chef Saucier , Chef Poissenierre and on and on, as each one is a recognized specialist in what they do. Each one has assistants depending on volume of kitchen. Hope this helps..


----------



## foodpump

In virtually all the places I worked at in Europe--some of them 5 star with the Exec. Chef highly decorated, it was expected for the entire Brigade to address the Exec. as "Herr Gothuey", the Sous, Herr Lichtenberger", etc. In other words, "Mr." no title.

Even after 14 years back in N.America, it still is strange for me to address the Chef as "Chef", Or "Chef Smith". In such cases I usually adress them as "sir", but that's just me.


----------



## bazza

Don't call me Chef, I work for a living


----------



## electricputa

I work in a small town family dinner. We make almost everything from scratch and do some pretty aggressive specials (for our restaurant type) . I have just been promoted and put in charge of the kitchen. IM NOT A CHEF! I'm not debating the definition, i'm just saying i'm not one.


----------



## larsson7

chef translated from most european languages means chief     ergo anyone who cooks is a cook unless you have the ultimate responsabillity then you are chef.


----------



## swati123

thanks


----------



## gypsy2727

ChefRAZ said:


> this has been discussed countless times on this forum, and with nothing new being added. So I won't be adding my 2 cents. But Just want to say hi everybody.


Hi ChefRaz ...and thank-you ( finally someone said it!)....how many more times are we going to beat this dead horse?

Have a great day....

Gypsy


----------



## leeniek

foodpump said:


> In virtually all the places I worked at in Europe--some of them 5 star with the Exec. Chef highly decorated, it was expected for the entire Brigade to address the Exec. as "Herr Gothuey", the Sous, Herr Lichtenberger", etc. In other words, "Mr." no title.
> 
> Even after 14 years back in N.America, it still is strange for me to address the Chef as "Chef", Or "Chef Smith". In such cases I usually adress them as "sir", but that's just me.


If the guys started calling me Mrs in the kitchen it would make me feel so OLD! As it is I'm not the oldest one but I'm pretty close!


----------



## chefbillyb

The Chef is like an artist, He teaches his trade, picks the colors for the paintings, and is responsible for their work. If people like their work, they have a successful gallery. A painter becomes a artist when everyone excepts their work as something they would like to be around, visit offend, and enjoy with friends................................ChefBill


----------



## chefray

foodpump said:


> This has been debated in countless forums. Here's my ake:
> 
> A Chef is the Boss, the manager of the kitchen. Period.
> 
> Forget about Chefs and cooks for a minute, lets talk about hockey. Wayne Gretzky was a good NHL player. Now he's a coach. His job is to hire, fire, train, supervise, encourage, discipline, guide, and mentor his team. He could not do this, nor win the respect of his team, had he not been an NHL player.
> 
> The Chef is the one who hires, fires, trains, coaches, disciplines, encourages, frequently cooks, does the paperwork, guides and mentors his team, er... brigade. S/he can not do this if they have not been a cook-- a good cook, can't instruct if they haven't done it a million times themselves, can't earn respect of their brigade if they can't instruct or supervise.
> 
> If you can mnore or less accept what I have written, then culinary schools do NOT produce Chefs, they produce culinary school graduates.
> 
> In Europe, things are different., It is no shame to call yourself a cook. Indeed, after a 3 year apprenticeship, you are proud to call yourself an apprenticed cook--not a "Chef", but a Cook. And if your head swells too much, you look at your certificate, it states "Cook", not "Chef"
> 
> O.K. off my soap box, time to go back to work.....


First off, I like the hockey analogy. Taking the discussion to another point of reference takes some of the emotion out of it and focuses on the logic behind the point being made.

I also must agree that culinary schools create Chefs no more than accounting schools create CFOs. You have to put in the work to get the title, respect, and pay grade.


----------



## carbonclouds

This is a truth that I am slowly beginning to learn.
I imagine it is a lesson that comes with age and experience 
(service after service the veil slowly begins to lift)
CHEF: is a title that no matter how interpreted
demands respect in whatever manifestation it is used.
But also can be blasphemy when abused.


/2 cents in the well.


----------



## charron

Eep! A poet among us!

And just when I was going to point out, with tongue firmly planted in cheek, that a popular facebook game (Restaurant City) can make anyone a Chef with just a click of the mouse.

That said, and with a military background, I consider the Chef to be the one in charge of the project at hand (namely cooking) whether by appointment or by merit of achievement... more significantly the latter. I am the chief cook in my kitchen, but I do not feel _I _am a chef.

I'll still cook for you if you want me to. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif I'll chuck in a loonie for this one...


----------



## kuan

Let me make this crystal clear.

Chefs wash their hands after going to the bathroom.

Cooks wash their hands BEFORE going to the bathroom.


----------



## leeniek

kuan said:


> Let me make this crystal clear.
> 
> Chefs wash their hands after going to the bathroom.
> 
> Cooks wash their hands BEFORE going to the bathroom.


 EWWW /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

Actually you've reminded me of something my husband observed at his office building. He was astounded at the number of what appeared to be high power businessmen who did not wash their hands after using the bathroom. These are the guys who shake hands with clients in meetings... bring on the hand sanitizer!


----------



## leeniek

One of the guys was really upset when he came in today and it turns out that one of his friends was riding him about his choice of employment and that he was wasting his time at our place because neither the KM or I have our red seals.  I shared with him alot of what I have learned here regarding the red seal and assured him that he is not wasting his time.. he will have to challenge it if he stays with us seeing as neither the KM or I have it.  I told him too that just because he has that piece of paper it will not make him a head chef.. he is going to have to get to that point through hard work and there are many head chefs out there who have not set food in culinary school and who are not red seals but who are damn good at their craft and that is how they got to be where they are.   I suggested he join this site too.. he will learn alot here and get alot of support!  I hope he takes my advice...


----------



## chefray

leeniek said:


> One of the guys was really upset when he came in today and it turns out that one of his friends was riding him about his choice of employment and that he was wasting his time at our place because neither the KM or I have our red seals. I shared with him alot of what I have learned here regarding the red seal and assured him that he is not wasting his time.. he will have to challenge it if he stays with us seeing as neither the KM or I have it. I told him too that just because he has that piece of paper it will not make him a head chef.. he is going to have to get to that point through hard work and there are many head chefs out there who have not set food in culinary school and who are not red seals but who are damn good at their craft and that is how they got to be where they are. I suggested he join this site too.. he will learn alot here and get alot of support! I hope he takes my advice...


Red Seal be darned(working on my bad case of kitchen mouth.) Some of the best Chefs I've ever worked with never even thought of taking the ACF exams. This is, after all, a hands on business.


----------



## leeniek

Ray you are right this business is hands on.  I'm sure a fancy piece of paper goes far to impress but when it comes down to it the individual's ability to perform and the quality of the food they send out is much more important.


----------



## chefboyarg

There are a ton of chefs out there that have never attended culinary school. Some of the heavier hitters just to name a couple include Mario Batali and the original badboy of fine dining himself, Thomas Keller (not really a  "badboy" per se...no pun intended). In my humble opinion, so long as you have acquired the base knowledge and skills required in a kitchen you're golden. No paper required.


----------



## cascadecatering

this is an interesting question.  I've been trained in Australia, but have worked in Europe.  Here, in Aus the technicality seems that anyone trained, is a chef.  Talented people who can cook, but are otherwise untrained, are cooks.

I disagree with this, as I also disagree with the title 'chef' being applied only to the head dude.  

I think that the title chef  should be applied to anyone capable of doing the job, qualified or not.

Cooking is a desperately unregulated industry, and while this is so, then I believe that the ancient applications of titles can be applied.  

If a dude could make horseshoes, knives and swords, he was a blacksmith.  There wasn't a college to go to, or a wall to hang a certificate on, much less a printer to print the certificate, or anyone literate to read the damned thing.


----------



## halmstad

foodpump-not to take away from food and chefs, but GRETZKY was the greatest NHL player not a NHL player


----------



## halmstad

the title chef is overused and overrated these days. anyone with a culinary degree considers themselves chef without ever having to work and bust their balls in a real kitchen. i always have and always will consider myself a cook no matter what position i hold in the almighty kitchen because what i do is cook. if you are the the chef and don't cook, you're a douche. get back to basics and earn the respect of your staff.


----------



## halmstad

cascadecatering-i agree with you 100%


----------



## kyheirloomer

_If a dude could make horseshoes, knives and swords, he was a blacksmith....._

If you're going to use silly analogies you ought to compare apples and apples.

First off, you're making a comparison between how things are done now, compared to how they were done in past centuries. Back then we had an apprentice system. Today we have schools that serve that function. Is one better than the other? Depondent sayeth not.

More to the point, given the guild system, a dude could make horshoes, knives, etc. would, indeed, by a blacksmith (well, actually, not, but that's a digression). But he would not be a Master Smith, which, within that guild, would be comparable to the generic term Chef.

Merely being able to use the tools of the trade does not qualify one to be the top dog. If that were so, there are an awful lot of home cooks who could take over as chefs in major restaurants.

_.....to anyone capable of doing the job, qualified or not._

Uh, ummm, you want to explain this. Isn't somebody capable of doing the job qualified by definition?


----------



## chefedb

Chef defined is Chief, not best cook or anything else. I define it as the orchestra leader who writes the music, publishes it, and has the rest of the orchestra copy and produce it to the audience. Orchestra leader need not know how to play the clarinet does't matter. He is responsible for how the clarinet is played as part of  the total sound.


----------



## kuan

cascadecatering said:


> If a dude could make horseshoes, knives and swords, he was a blacksmith. There wasn't a college to go to, or a wall to hang a certificate on, much less a printer to print the certificate, or anyone literate to read the damned thing.


Actually yes there was, and it was much worse than going to chef school. You had to be an apprentice for years before you were considered a blacksmith, and in the old days, anyone who was still in business was a blacksmith, else they'd be out of business.


----------



## kyheirloomer

And even then you'd only be a journeyman smith, the next step after apprentice. Then, after many years, and after being judged by a jury of your peers, you could become a master.

The word "masterpiece" comes from the object produced by a potential master as his finest work, used to achieve his master's status.

While we tend to use the word "blacksmith" to describe anyone who forged metal, such was not the case. There were numerous subdivisions within that catch-all phrase, many of which has their own guilds. For instance, those involved with making and shaping horseshoes were (and are) farriers, not blacksmiths. And those making knives and swords were, generically, bladesmiths, with swordsmiths a subdivision of that.

Here in the U.S., where the guild system never took hold, a blacksmith was a jack of all trades. But the fact is, virtually every farm and ranch had a forge, and much of that work was done by the owner or a farmhand.


----------



## Guest

i know lowly prep cooks and culinary students who label themselves as "Chef"

usually when people call me "Chef", I say I'm just a cook. i call my Chef-Instructors by "Chef.." and that is a sign of respect first and foremost. its more easily defined here as they are my superiors and i am learning from them, but i don't know if they ever were head of a kitchen or if they can even cook me a meal that i'd enjoy.

even if you consider "Chef" to be head of a kitchen... where do you draw the line? if i open a restaurant and run the kitchen, that makes me "Chef", right? the problem is I did not get there based on my skills, but because I had money or could get a loan. say the restaurant goes bankrupt because I am so incompetent... and I never do anything food related again. Is it ok for me to have "Chef Huy" on my tombstone when I die?

there is no real answer. to get the cool title of doctor... you go to school, do internship, and pass a test to get certified... well we can get certified too through ACF. thankfully it is not required to work because it is a major hassle, but no one can dispute your use of the title "Chef" at that point. should we do a poll to see how many "Chef's" here are certified through ACF? lol.

i'm fine without it as long as i can cook. call me "Chef" if you like, but i am just a cook.


----------



## culinuthiast

_something i wrote on the subject recently elsewhere, nothing profound, just a riff or two from a culinary student..._

My teachers in lab classes are called Chef. When addressing them in class, my sous chef (which changes almost daily depending on the class) is called Chef. Whoever is running the show in any kitchen I step into is called Chef.

In my fundamentals class I was taught that you aren't a chef until another chef or someone who actually knows better, calls you Chef. I would define the qualification as anyone capable of successfully running a real kitchen. Does this mean the caterer who never ran a kitchen but serves 300 people fantastic food every night isn't a chef? Nope. Not to me anyway.

As an outsider, I always admired the term and somewhat militaristic use of the word Chef in the commercial kitchen. It suggests some sense of order, something I find comforting in the world of Liberal Arts majors who are simultaneously educated to be the modern Thomas Jefferson of our times - prepared for any possibility and with the hopes of contributing to any given discipline they turn a hand to - and yet totally bleeping useless when it comes to anything that requires a little effort, let alone a little common sense. I saw this kind of thing back in my youth when I spent well over a decade learning music in a similarly militaristic fashion that - while filled with all manner of problems - was extremely effective and provided the student with the opportunity to learn, practice and master while also providing inspiration for _wanting_ to do so, and in great measure. It's like the word seargent, or sifu, or master. It speaks of a quiet resolve and the mastery that comes with it. It isn't bandied about loosely. It can be inspiring to those chef is responsible for.

And like the gourmand... the people who speak it and understand it's meaning are just as much a part of its understanding, while many of them might aspire and yet never reach that goal themselves.

Moving along, on the issue of gender in the kitchen, I think I speak for many when I say that the word Chef is thankfully gender neutral and really helps males and females cohabitate the kitchen peacefully, especially where women who came through the industry in its most chauvinistic form (see: we're close to finally changing that, but "not quite there") and thus have a massive chip on their shoulder, especially for that one guy that wanders up and calls her ma'am.

One of my classmates ran into this recently when he casually referred to Chef as "ma'am" in class while fumbling for paper to write on, not realizing at that moment that he might as well have stood up and pointed to Chef saying, "Female! I have a question…" He had meant to be respectful, he just wasn't thinking about it before the words came out of his mouth and sure enough Chef dressed him down in front of the whole class almost before he finished saying the first syllable of sorry, "Chef… you will call me Chef." And power to her, while my colleague certainly never intended any offense, the reality is if that was any of our male chefs standing there teaching our purchasing lecture class, he would have said Chef, not sir. I get it, and I think everyone else in class that day did too - foremost among us being my friend who made the error.

One of the running themes among Chefs here in school is that as a culinary student, you do not go out and print business cards that say Chef on them. People do, or they get [email protected] email addresses, or have some kind of license plate holder on their car that suggests they are a professional chef. But they're not supposed to, and if you present yourself as a chef when you haven't even worked in a professional kitchen, then you are just begging not to get hired - while it may delight your family and friends.

A fellow student here recently told me a story of how his Chef (he works part time at a top Golf Resort in the area) will start off new hires in his kitchen by asking them what title they want in the kitchen - when they've made it and gotten all they can out of working in his kitchen, what title do they want when it's all said and done? The correct answer is none. At least that was the upshot of what the chef was really looking for: do you spend ridiculous hours earning next to nothing just so you can have a title? Not in Chef's opinion. And that makes a lot of sense to me. Back in the heady days of the apex of my design career, I remember how my business partners fought it out about what title went to whom, while I personally didn't give a crap - I was going to determine what the graphics department did or did not do in my company and that was all that mattered to me. Not being called Creative Director, which is one of those end-game titles a lot of young designers ultimately would aim for. The point being: when you finally don't really care anymore about titles and are instead only caring about the overall function of something like a kitchen, or like a graphic design firm: only then have you probably become one.

It's very Zen, and very intuitive to me at my age, but it's clearly still a mystery to many of my 18 year old class mates.


----------



## Guest

interesting idea about being a chef once someone who knows better calls you a chef... but how do you know they aren't just trying to be nice? i had a guy who worked years in fine dining restaurants call me "chef" after he found out i was going to culinary school... i said thanks, but i'm just a cook. my chef-instructors also have called me "chef" and again i don't feel it was proper, but you don't correct the chef. granted i'm a great cook and am almost as old as my chef-instructors, but i'm new to this career...


----------



## leeniek

I'm fairly new to this business as well and one thing that I learned very early on is that cooking in a restaurant is very different than cooking at home and while someone may be an accomplished home cook, there are times when that does not transition well into the professional kitchen.  The speed and focus has to be there and some people just don't have it.  I had someone quit today who is a good home cook but just could not keep up on the line and everyone on the line could see that this person was not going to be staying with us.


----------



## chefseanvincent

leeniek said:


> Ray you are right this business is hands on. I'm sure a fancy piece of paper goes far to impress but when it comes down to it the individual's ability to perform and the quality of the food they send out is much more important.


Agreed!! to some degree. Chef is in my humble opinion first and foremost a cook. This is just a small portion of chefdom.

Okay so the "responsibilities" section of your resume include.... staffing, training, scheduling, menu development/implementation, food cost prediction/ analysis, labor cost prediction/analysis, maintenance and control of predefined food and labor percentages, daily supervision...... yada yada yada etc etc etc seriously for pages of what chefdom is.

If you do not learn each and every day you tie that apron around your waist you are not chef.

If you can't cook you are not chef.

If you can cook like a god and can not train someone to reproduce the exact product hundreds of times over without you glaring over their shoulder you are not chef.

If you can not control, supervise, cajole, befriend, command a group of degenerate, money hungry, workaholic, alcoholic/drug abusing individuals you are not chef.

If you are not an Ahole you are not chef.

If your staff doesn't love/trust/call you for bail/ ask you to lie to their wives/ cry to you when their wives leave them then you are not chef

If your staff can not decide whether they LOVE or HATE or FEAR you then you are not chef.

*If you are not a problem solver you are not chef.* seriously today my first day back after a long weekend off(1.5 days the first time off in 27 days) and I have 8 lunch cooks jumping down my damn throat before I can even make an effen espresso "Chef this, Chef that, Chef my check, chef my schedule, chef the salad guy, chef the night crew, chef the dishwasher is broken, chef the fish isn't here yet, chef..." I swear it is never ending...but *WAIT *that is not all now the F&B DIR hits you with "Chef we need to talk numbers, you're on budget but I think you can lower it....but don't go too low corporate will hold us to it, lets talk new menu ideas, lets talk, about happy hour specials, lets talk introducing this and that, and ohhh by the way the *CEO* is in town tomorrow he will expect to spend a day with you. But *WAIT* you walk out of the office and the restaurant GM askes "chef do you have today's specials ready?"

AND now it is 10 am.. if you are not sitting in your office smiling drinking espresso thinking I have a crazy a$$ day ahead me thinking

*I love what i do*

*Then you are not chef! *

"Chef" is earned, it is power and control of a lot of money that belongs to someone else (unless you are an owner/chef then I commend you because it takes serious huevous to drop your own cash into this business).

That is a rant this is a rave but that is the honest truth. You wanted it... effen embrace it


----------



## greyeaglem

I like Left4breads response, but I'm really getting a kick out of ChefSeanVincent's. What a hoot! I have a running joke with some of my suppliers about the term chef as they have told me about accounts where the person they deal with insists on being called Chef So-and-so. Why would a supplier call you Chef? You're not their boss. So they make a big deal out of doing it to me because they know it annoys me. I have a strong kitchen crew, so on weekends they cook and I float around doing whatever needs to be done whether it's clearing tables, helping the bartender, hauling ice, pitching dishes or plating. Sometimes people ask me if I'm the hostess.When asked, I refer to myself as executive chef. It's pretentious, but it impresses people that I'm actually out there talking with them. They feel special. (I know, dumb.) I am the general manager but I still work on the line and run the kitchen. We had some quality issues when I first took over management of the place, and using the term "chef" helped elevate us in the public's eye. We are once again considered one of the top restaurants in our area. The "chef" buzz helped bring back customers we had lost. Also, we learned the hard way that using the term "manager" can open you up to law suits. We had an employee file a basically fictitious harrassment suit. They claimed they had reported an incident to a manager and that it wasn't addressed. If I'm an executive chef instead of a manager, there's technically no one they can point the finger at. There was another thread somewhat like this where someone asked what we thought defined a chef. My answer then, and I still stand by it, is a chef is the person who takes as much care with a grilled cheese sandwich as they do fois gras with shaved truffles. Both are equally important to the person eating it and deserve the same amount of attention. I have known "chefs" that people raved about who wouldn't even make a grilled cheese because they felt it was beneath them. That's the kind of person I don't consider a chef. It doesn't matter what they know because they don't get it anyway.


----------



## foodpump

ChefSeanVincent said:


> Agreed!! to some degree. Chef is in my humble opinion first and foremost a cook. This is just a small portion of chefdom.
> 
> Okay so the "responsibilities" section of your resume include.... staffing, training, scheduling, menu development/implementation, food cost prediction/ analysis, labor cost prediction/analysis, maintenance and control of predefined food and labor percentages, daily supervision...... yada yada yada etc etc etc seriously for pages of what chefdom is.
> 
> If you do not learn each and every day you tie that apron around your waist you are not chef.
> 
> If you can't cook you are not chef.
> 
> If you can cook like a god and can not train someone to reproduce the exact product hundreds of times over without you glaring over their shoulder you are not chef.
> 
> If you can not control, supervise, cajole, befriend, command a group of degenerate, money hungry, workaholic, alcoholic/drug abusing individuals you are not chef.
> 
> If you are not an Ahole you are not chef.
> 
> If your staff doesn't love/trust/call you for bail/ ask you to lie to their wives/ cry to you when their wives leave them then you are not chef
> 
> If your staff can not decide whether they LOVE or HATE or FEAR you then you are not chef.
> 
> *If you are not a problem solver you are not chef.* seriously today my first day back after a long weekend off(1.5 days the first time off in 27 days) and I have 8 lunch cooks jumping down my damn throat before I can even make an effen espresso "Chef this, Chef that, Chef my check, chef my schedule, chef the salad guy, chef the night crew, chef the dishwasher is broken, chef the fish isn't here yet, chef..." I swear it is never ending...but *WAIT *that is not all now the F&B DIR hits you with "Chef we need to talk numbers, you're on budget but I think you can lower it....but don't go too low corporate will hold us to it, lets talk new menu ideas, lets talk, about happy hour specials, lets talk introducing this and that, and ohhh by the way the *CEO* is in town tomorrow he will expect to spend a day with you. But *WAIT* you walk out of the office and the restaurant GM askes "chef do you have today's specials ready?"
> 
> AND now it is 10 am.. if you are not sitting in your office smiling drinking espresso thinking I have a crazy a$$ day ahead me thinking........
> 
> Hang on a sec! Don't sip that espresso just yet...
> 
> Right about now the d/washer should come running into your office, arms a-flailing, yelling: "Chef! You come quick! Come NOw! Is raining in dry-store room!...."


----------



## prairiechef

Cooks cook.

Chefs are cooks that manage cooks.

That said, the modern corporate "kitchen manager" is not a Chef.

The term is used way too freely, and I personally blame the Food Network.

edit: I have to tale offense to this;

"_If you are not an Ahole you are not chef_."

Absolutely untrue. I'm sick of ***holes that think that they have carte blanche to act the way they do. There is no need to be an ***hole to manage cooks, it's a tired, cliched stereotype.


----------



## foodpump

Weeeelll... I dunno about that.

I prefer to think of myself as a "passive a-hole". That is, I'm generally a mild-mannered guy until provoked.

Take for instance the other day:

New sales rep with a pastry purveyor I don't usually deal with comes a knocking at my door and offers me decent prices on couverture. Claims the prices are stable for the next few months. So I order 100 kg in, two weeks later I order in another 10 cases, just about to sign off on the invoice when I notice the prices have changed, to the tune of almost 15%. I call the guy up and ask him what's going on.

"uhhh,.... well Head office in Europe has set new prices"

"Know why I'm telling you B.S. to your face with that statement?"

"Hey, I can't set prices if Headoff..."

"Because the production date and expiry date of last week's shipment and this shipment match"

"So?"

"So it's the same efffen inventory, both deliveries came off of the same effen skid in your warehouse, screw Head office. You give me the same price as last delivery or I'll send the whole thing back.

He didn't, and I did. Passive a-hole.

Last year I had this prep cook, things going well until one day the guy just doesn't show up. One of the waitresses remarks that she met the guy couple of nights ago at a party and he claimed to have found a new job at a place down the street. I call the owner of the place up and confirm that my ex-prep guy is working there. I ask the owner to tell my ex-prep that it is common courtesy to, A) quit at your old job_ first_ before starting a new one, and B), not to come around for his cheque, I'll mail it. I've also been known to mail invoices to no-show new cooks, charge 'em $50 for wasting my time and another $50 for lying to my face. Of course none of them have paid up, but that's not the point, I'm just a passive a-hole, I guess.

But the one guy who will swear in court that I'm a bone-fide a-hole is my ex- landlord. That was about 10 years ago, and I was one year away from my lease expiring on a 2,000 sq ft cafe. Landlord insisted that he had to raise rent by 40%, but there was two things he didn't know. The first was that every year my catering and wholesale sales grew, to the point where they now far exceeded my cafe sales, and the second was that in my lease all fixtures and chattels belonged to me. So I decided to sell the place.

Landlord would not agree to any of the 4 prospective owners I brought him, then he shoves a envelope over, tells me it's the deal of the century, and he'll buy the place from me--just one condition: If I got a lawyer to read the deal, it was off.

Them's fighting words...

So I found a new place and then proceeded to strip down the old place. Fixtures and chattels, that meant the walk-in, the sinks, all equipment, the fire wall, the fire supression system, hood, roof mounted exhaust fans and make-up air system, heck, even the grease trap. When I left it, it could have been an insurance office.

As luck would have it, hand-over date was April 1st, and I got a nasty phone call from him on that fateful day, threatening all kinds of legal action, sheriffs, and bailbondsmen. But that was ten years ago and I still haven't recieved any legal action from him yet.

I'm just a passive a-hole, I guess......


----------



## gypsy2727

foodpump said:


> That's because the word "Chef" is a "replacement" for cook. Everyone wants to be a chief, not an Indian.


The Chief of a Tribe is also an Indian

A good Chief has Braves that don't desert the Tribe

just sayin


----------



## larsson7

good point!


----------



## chefseanvincent

Foodpump what do you think, we start a new thread.  Chefs the passive Aholes, acceptable or unacceptable?


----------



## foodpump

Neither.  Passive a-hole by neccesity.......


----------



## ktanasy

I agree with foodpump regarding the fact that you shouldn't label yourself as a chef unless you have the ability and experience of working all areas of a commercial kitchen, perhaps not the pastry chef position, although you should possess some baking abilities in order to manage this area of the kitchen. Developing great leadership skills is the other side of the issue. I agree that the term is sometimes used loosely and that's fine, as Just Jim mentioned, however in the professional world the term chef holds much more meaning and is most often credited with some type of certification. I can call my next door neighbor a great burger chef because he makes delicious burgers, apart from that I don't the guy can cook an omelet.

On the other hand I don't believe you need to qualify as a master chef to obtain the title of chef.

Besides what is a master chef? To my understanding this would be someone who is perhaps a food writer or a food critic besides having excellent cooking skills. I don't believe in my 32 years I've ever worked under a master chef and if I did it certainly didn't have any major significance.


----------



## kyheirloomer

I'm sorry. What does writing ability have to do with being a chef at all, let alone a master chef?

To put a point on it, I have excellent cooking skills, am an award-winning writer, and have worked in commercial kitchens. That doesn't make me a chef. What it makes me is somebody with first-hand experience who writes about culinary matters. 

On the other hand, if I had actually run a kitchen, that would be something else.


----------



## gunnar

KYHeirloomer said:


> On the other hand, if I had actually run a kitchen, that would be something else.


 I've run a couple of kitchens, doesn't make me a chef. I was just in charge in between Chef's, people called me Chef I just quit correcting them cause it was easier. Even told the the new hires, I am in charge, I am not your Chef I am just the only guy here that knows the menu right now. Placed food orders and helped the owner fire a guy and such but never scheduled hours (didn't really need to) or changed the menu (without a Chef). Can we just say that if are one you know it? and if you have to ask, you aren't?


----------



## greyeaglem

Regarding the a-hole thing, You don't actually have to _be _one. It just means that because you have to make unpopular decisions and keep your staff in line, they will regard you as one. If you're staff doesn't consider you somewhat of an a-hole, then more than likely they're running the place instead of you. Doesn't have anything to do with your basic personality or how you treat anyone.


----------



## ktanasy

I’m sorry,

I must have misunderstood

I thought this forum was for professional chefs.

I'm new to this forum

I apologize


----------



## chefedb

The Barefoot Contessa a chef. or Giada, or Sandra Lee or Big Daddy?????? Give me a break, and blame the food channel.


----------



## foodpump

greyeaglem said:


> Regarding the a-hole thing, You don't actually have to _be _one. It just means that because you have to make unpopular decisions and keep your staff in line, they will regard you as one. If you're staff doesn't consider you somewhat of an a-hole, then more than likely they're running the place instead of you. Doesn't have anything to do with your basic personality or how you treat anyone.


Well put.

Most of my staff get along with me just fine. The ones I've fired for stealing, gold bricking, and showing up drunk/stoned, for some reason still think I'm an a-hole......


----------



## gypsy2727

If your having problems with your staff it is your fault!

edited for language for sensitive viewers

just sayin/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


----------



## foodpump

gypsy2727 said:


> If your having problems with your staff it is your fault!
> 
> edited for language for sensitive viewers
> 
> just sayin/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Hey... you moonlighting for Labour board, or for the W.C.B?


----------



## greyeaglem

Thanks Pump. I think some people here are misunderstanding what I mean. I get along with my staff too. However, sometimes I have to tell them things like they can't all be off the same weekend to go to the local rock fest together (they somehow have the idea that this is possible) and that someone has to work. That someone is them as they were last to ask off. That's when they tell me they already bought their tickets and stomp off mumbling what I know is the a-word. Doesn't have anything to do with me other than I'm the one who has to tell them that. Or I tell them to take their tongue ring or lip ring out as they know I don't allow it. Then they start in about how so-and-so has an eyebrow ring and I have double standards. I explain it's not a double standard as they can have an eyebrow ring too if they want, but not a lip or tongue ring. They stomp off mumbling the a-word and "picking on me", etc. If they didn't have that opinion of me at least occasionally, they'd have rings hanging everywhere, wear what they wanted to work and on rock fest weekend I'd be working the place by myself.


----------



## greyeaglem

I don't want to start a food fight here, but I feel there is a subtle question in an earlier post regarding KYHeirloomer's  right to post on this forum. He has been doing so for longer than I have been a member of Cheftalk and has been a valuable contributor IMHO. While maybe not a professional chef, he is a food service industry professional as opposed to a home  cook. Check out his website.  Maybe the forum criteria should be changed to include all industry pros instead of only chefs.


----------



## chefboyarg

ChefSeanVincent -- loved the post.


----------



## greg

greyeaglem said:


> I don't want to start a food fight here, but I feel there is a subtle question in an earlier post regarding KYHeirloomer's right to post on this forum. He has been doing so for longer than I have been a member of Cheftalk and has been a valuable contributor IMHO. While maybe not a professional chef, he is a food service industry professional as opposed to a home cook. Check out his website. Maybe the forum criteria should be changed to include all industry pros instead of only chefs.


The criteria hasn't changed. The message on the old board used to say something to the effect of food service industry professional. Regardless of that, KYH has worked in kitchens in the past, just not as an actual chef. I'll try to come up with a different message for the forum header to reflect the actual policy.


----------



## leeniek

As for being a-holes we have to do it sometimes..it comes with the territory.  I'm sure staff have walked away thinking a-hole or b*tch (or both) after I've had to do things like tell them they can't have a specific day off as they were last to ask or many of the other things I have to do that are unpopular with the staff.  I get along well with all of them but I'm responsible for the kitchen in the KM's absence and they need to be fully aware of that fact.


----------



## gypsy2727

foodpump said:


> Hey... you moonlighting for Labour board, or for the W.C.B?


Nope.....just know how to make peace with my decisions


----------



## gunnar

Greg said:


> The criteria hasn't changed. The message on the old board used to say something to the effect of food service industry professional. Regardless of that, KYH has worked in kitchens in the past, just not as an actual chef. I'll try to come up with a different message for the forum header to reflect the actual policy.


OMG!! KYH is a food writer!! Like a Foodie Blogger!!! BANNINNATE HIM!!....is banninnate a word?


----------



## greg

Gunnar said:


> is banninnate a word?


It should be.


----------



## kyheirloomer

_banninate: v. To be mocked by a hippie, biker, sort of zen cook. _

_banninatee: n. The object of such mockery. _

Ahhh, the shame of it! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


----------



## gunnar

KYHeirloomer said:


> _banninate: v. To be mocked by a hippie, biker, sort of zen cook. _
> 
> _banninatee: n. The object of such mockery. _
> 
> Ahhh, the shame of it! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## kwilkinson

The term "chef" is used very loosely nowadays.  When I graduated culinary school, I was told that "Now you're all CHEFS!!!"  As if someone completing a 12 month cooking program and a 3 month externship actually earned me a title.  Sorry, that's not the case.  Yes, I'm a cook.  And Yes, I'm an arrogant a**hole.  And Yes, I would love to be called Chef someday.  But I am not a Chef.  The Chef is the head of a kitchen, the boss.  The main man.  But it also refers to a term of respect.  For example, since I do not work for him, there is no real reason for me to call Grant Achatz or Thomas Keller a Chef.  But since I respect the hell out of both of them, everytime I meet them I will refer to both as Chef. 

Anyway, I don't think it is necessarily a good thing that my culinary school was trying to use the word Chef as basically a selling tool to make people more interested in paying the outrageous fees to go to school there.  I didn't go to school to become a chef.  I went to school to learn the basics of cooking in a way that I would have a strong foundation that would allow me to learn quickly and easily once I got into a professional kitchen.  That is it.  Do not call me a chef just because I went to school.  Do not even call me a cook because I went to school.  I am only a cook if I get paid to do so, and I am only a Chef if I am in charge of a kitchen.


----------



## llauralight

Wow! It appears that people are really identifying with polarity of definition concerning the term chef. I had never thought of the title "chef" in such terms before...Chief of the kitchen, certified graduate culinary school alumni....kitchen manager...whew!

A different take on it: Maybe it could be defined as something one does for money versus something one does because that is who they are.

My grandmother was an AMAZING cook, everything from scratch, fresh bread three meals a day, possibly a psychic connection with food or maybe it was the chemicals in her hands.....She fed a working farm in middle Tennessee for much of her life. She even owned and made the "secret" Krispy Kreme donut recipe....She also happened to have put herself through college during the Depression and taught at an exclusive boys' boarding school (Battleground Academy in Franklin, for Civil War buffs). College degree? yes. Culinary school? no. Cook for money? only for bake sales. Was she a chef? Not by that definition. Was she a more memorable cook than any most people will ever experience? yes.

My husband calls me a chef, but I am just a really good cook. Although I have baked for money in the past, I am NOT a chef by this financial definition. I make a living as a nurse practitioner contracted in rural East Tennessee ERs (which turned out to be handy when I have had to sew up my own hand after cutting myself with the Wusthoff bread knife I was using to cut an onion horizontally..oops). I think that food that I make is delicious, memorable, even dream worthy...but it is personal, not professional. I am not a chef, but I can still make my own mayonnaise. Smiles!


----------



## llauralight

And by the way, I did not realize this forum was only for professional chefs, but if so I guess I will not be here anymore. Good luck deciding who will!


----------



## petemccracken

Reiterating: All "chefs" can probably cook, but not all "cooks" can handle the role as a "chef".

Money has little, if anything at all, to do with defining a "chef".

Running a kitchen or other "food production facility" has everything to do with defining a "chef".

What is a "professional"? In my mind, it is one who plies a trade or profession as a major source of making a living.

This particular forum is titled "Professional Chefs Forum" though sometimes I am confused as to the actual definition of "Professional Chefs" and I feel that it might be more appropriate to use the term "Professional Culinarian" so as to not exclude the rest of the professionals in production kitchens.


----------



## caterchef

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifNot all "so called chefs"can cook, I have seen Culinary grads that couldn't make a soup or sauce without a recipe. In th '60's when the Kennedys hired a French Chef everyone wanted a French Chef. I was training Frenchmen straight off the boat how to cook, as long as their name was Pierre or Jacque they got the Chef's job and they didn't even know what Larrouse Gastronomique was because they were accountants or dog catchers etc. That was also about the time Le Cordon Bleu let Julia Child enroll and really screw things up. Then the term "chef" became a four letter word and lost all the respect Escoffier had build up in the profession./img/vbsmilies/smilies/mad.gif


----------



## foodpump

Eh......No.

"Cook" became a four lettered word, and "Chef" was the newspeak double-plus-good word for "Chef".  Heck, even your ACF, (or is it the AFC?) won't even refer to cooks as cooks, instead they are called "Culinarians"......

If you really want to navel gaze, it is us who are to blame for this mess.  No one is implementing any standrds for what a cook is, or what a Chef is, no one is taking the media or cooking schools to task, they do what they want to do, they goez where they wants to goez.

But the bigest joker in the deck is us ourselves------Too much competition.  Everyone spinning nickels and looking for corners to cut.  Too much convienience food and uneducated/trained staff.  And the public?  They love it, keep asking for more.

"Chef" designed submrine sandwich anyone?........


----------



## boar_d_laze

Hmmm.
Interesting. You must have been an early adopter. The _Gastronomique_ wasn't even translated into English until 1961. Besides, I thought you didn't cook from recipes.


> _That was also about the time Le Cordon Bleu let Julia Child enroll and really screw things up. _


First, allow me to correct your anachronism. Julia Child graduated from LCB in 1950.

But I'm just dying to hear your theory of how Julia Child _really screw[ed] things up_.

BDL


----------



## gypsy2727

foodpump said:


> Eh......No.
> 
> "Cook" became a four lettered word, and "Chef" was the newspeak double-plus-good word for "Chef". Heck, even your ACF, (or is it the AFC?) won't even refer to cooks as cooks, instead they are called "Culinarians"......
> 
> If you really want to navel gaze, it is us who are to blame for this mess. No one is implementing any standrds for what a cook is, or what a Chef is, no one is taking the media or cooking schools to task, they do what they want to do, they goez where they wants to goez.
> 
> But the bigest joker in the deck is us ourselves------Too much competition. Everyone spinning nickels and looking for corners to cut. Too much convienience food and uneducated/trained staff. And the public? They love it, keep asking for more.
> 
> "Chef" designed submrine sandwich anyone?........


Are you speaking from personal experience? ....that's too bad


----------



## kyheirloomer

_"Chef" designed submrine sandwich anyone?........_

And why not? We've got all those chef designed "gourmet" hamburgers.

Hamburgers, for God's sake. You know, a patty of chopped meat on a bun.


----------



## prairiechef

Well, a chef will afford that "chopped meat on a bun" the respect it deserves. He will know the proper fat content, the proper cooking temperature, the proper seasoning, quality garnish and bread. Your contempt for a decent burger speaks volumes.

No difference between Mickey D's 1/4 pounder with cheese on Wonderbread and a handmade, freshly ground sirloin burger with aged white cheddar, boar bacon and caramelized shallot on a freshly baked handmade kaiser?

So a steak... just grilled meat slapped on a plate?

Roasted chicken... just a dead bird in an oven?

Why do any of us bother then? Is it all supposed to be asparagus foam and essence of snobbery with a side of holier-than-thou?

The proof is in the knowledge, skill and respect given to the dish and the ingredients used, _and the ability to teach those skills to your employees _so that they become an extension of your own skill.


----------



## caterchef

boar_d_laze said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Interesting. You must have been an early adopter. The _Gastronomique_ wasn't even translated into English until 1961. Besides, I thought you didn't cook from recipes.
> 
> First, allow me to correct your anachronism. Julia Child graduated from LCB in 1950.
> 
> But I'm just dying to hear your theory of how Julia Child _really screw[ed] things up_.
> 
> BDL


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif First of all, Larrousse Gastronomique is more of an encyclopedia of french cooking than a book of recipes and second of all, any " true chef " should be able to look at a list of ingredients and make any menu item without looking for the amounts listed in any book and thirdly it has nice pictures and illustrations. I also have copies of Esoffier and Louis p. De Gouy of the Waldorf for the same reasons. Along with over $2K in other culinary references.

And I sure LCB taught Julia how to flip an omelette and even though, sometimes she would miss the pan on camera, being that she never managed a commercial kitchen in her life, I sure it was just from the lack of experience. There are a lot of cooking books on the market by people who never have managed a kitchen and that doesn't make them a "Chef" either.

How they ever convinced Jacque Pepin to pair up with her, I will never understand./img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


----------



## gypsy2727

PrairieChef said:


> Well, a chef will afford that "chopped meat on a bun" the respect it deserves. He will know the proper fat content, the proper cooking temperature, the proper seasoning, quality garnish and bread. Your contempt for a decent burger speaks volumes.
> 
> No difference between Mickey D's 1/4 pounder with cheese on Wonderbread and a handmade, freshly ground sirloin burger with aged white cheddar, boar bacon and caramelized shallot on a freshly baked handmade kaiser?
> 
> So a steak... just grilled meat slapped on a plate?
> 
> Roasted chicken... just a dead bird in an oven?
> 
> Why do any of us bother then? Is it all supposed to be asparagus foam and essence of snobbery with a side of holier-than-thou?
> 
> The proof is in the knowledge, skill and respect given to the dish and the ingredients used, _and the ability to teach those skills to your employees _so that they become an extension of your own skill.


Well put Prairie Chef

Gypsy


----------



## kyheirloomer

_Your contempt for a decent burger speaks volumes._

No, Prairie Chef, not contemp for the burger. In my years as a short-order cook I've probably prepared more of them, in more variations, than you've seen. And I know the proper relationship of fat to lean, and how to season and flavor the specific meat being used, and how to match garnishes to the particular burger, and the right breadstuff to use for a particular set of flavor profiles. I'll stack my burger-making skills against anyone in the world.

That does not make me a chef, by any means. Nor are those who make them at McDonald's chefs.

Although maybe if I usurped that unearned title I, too, could charge 25 bucks for what is, when all is said and done, a rustic sandwich.


----------



## greg

caterchef said:


> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif First of all, Larrousse Gastronomique is more of an encyclopedia or french cooking than a book of recipes and second of all, any " true chef " should be able to look at a list of ingredients and make any menu item without looking for the amounts listed in any book and thirdly it has nice pictures and illustrations. I also have copies of Esoffier and Louis p. De Gouy of the Waldorf for the same reasons. Along with over $2K in other culinary references.
> 
> And I sure LCB taught Julia how to flip an omelette and even that, sometimes she would miss the pan on camera, being that she never managed a commercial kitchen in her life, I sure it was just from the lack of experience. There are a lot of cooking books on the market by people who never have managed a kitchen and that doesn't make them a "Chef" either.
> 
> How they ever convinced Jacque Pepin to pair up with her, I will never understand./img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


First you say not all chefs can cook, now you bash Julia Child's skill as a cook for not having run a commercial kitchen? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## caterchef

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif My Quote was from reply # 89:

Not all "so called chefs"can cook, I have seen Culinary grads that couldn't make a soup or sauce without a recipe.

I never stated Julia was a cook or a Chef, personally I would not have hired her for a potwasher.

She was the most sloppy person I ever saw in a kitchen on TV or otherwise. Back then PBS would give a Spot to just about anybody talented or not.


----------



## kwilkinson

caterchef said:


> I never stated Julia was a cook or a Chef, personally I would not have hired her for a potwasher.
> 
> She was the most sloppy person I ever saw in a kitchen on TV or otherwise. Back then PBS would give a Spot to just about anybody talented or not.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


----------



## petemccracken

PrairieChef said:


> Well, a chef will afford that "chopped meat on a bun" the respect it deserves. He will know the proper fat content, the proper cooking temperature, the proper seasoning, quality garnish and bread. ...


Hm, I would have thought any self-respecting COOK would do that.

In my book, a "chef" would know

what meat, seasonings, garnishes, and bread to buy and in what quantities, and
what price to pay for those items to turn profit, and
when to order more or less as conditions dictate, and
which "cook" to assign to which stations, not only the "hot line" but also the "prep line", and
what to do when the "cook of choice" is not available, and
how to train a replacement when necessary, and
how to store all of the purchased products, and
when to "throw out" or otherwise dispose of "out of date" inventory, and
what to do when the dishwasher quits, whether human or mechanical, and
how to convince the banker/owner/investor that it is being done correctly, and
the list goes on
IMHO


----------



## petemccracken

caterchef said:


> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif My Quote was from reply # 89:
> 
> Not all "so called chefs"can cook, I have seen Culinary grads that couldn't make a soup or sauce without a recipe....


Hm, are you equating "Culinary grads" to "chefs"??? I do not believe that is what you meant.


----------



## kwilkinson

PeteMcCracken said:


> Hm, are you equating "Culinary grads" to "chefs"??? I do not believe that is what you meant.


I think it _is _what he meant tongue-in-cheek. That culinary grads are "so called chefs" like I pointed out in my post about culinary schools using the word chef as some sort of a selling point.


----------



## titomike

Personally I think this thread has done more to exacerbate the situation than clarify it!

Is the concept of _a _Chef and _the _Chef that difficult to comprehend?

ChefSeanVincent amusingly described what's waiting for those aspiring to be _the _Chef and there's never any mistaking that guy!

Everyone else who is qualified (and that's not carved in stone) is just _a _Chef, commis... demi... ...de partie ...sous etc.

Title? All I require from you when I call is an answer...

Your respect? I'll earn that, thanks...


----------



## bazza

And the point of this thread is???

After 103 posts we still haven't managed to figure out who the big guy is (yawn). This subject comes up often on cheftalk and it always causes a huge debate, even the forum cannot make up its mind what a chef is. I am almost afraid to use the word chef.

In England almost everyone in the kitchen is called a chef, there is no stigma attached to it and it is defined by the title that precedes it. When you walk into a kitchen you know who is the boss and he or she usually prefers to be called by thier own name. That said, hospitals and schools usually have cooks rather than chefs but there are no hard and fast rules about job titles and if you get it wrong its no big deal.


----------



## jadecook

Well if you think of the rank of a kitchen there is usually a chef and the then a sous chef which implies that everyone else in the kitchen would be cooks. So in my opinion a chef is an accomplished cook that is the head of the line and runs the kitchen. I plan on going to culinary school and I first thought that after I graduated I would become a chef but I really know deep down that a 'Chef' is a title of honor and leadership and that practically no one fresh out of school will have the experience or expertise to be a chef.


----------



## petemccracken

JadeCook,

There IS hope for you!


----------



## jadecook

Ok, after going back and reading some of the fighting going on in this post I feel I have to say this. I really do believe that the difference between and chef and a cook is the experience and knowledge they have. I chef to me would be able to make a great meal out of everything and also have the training that a culinary school would afford them. However a person with no culinary school can rise up to be a chef as well if the work long and hard. A true chef would normally bear the responsibility of running the kitchen. (I only add the culinary schooling because a cook at home could probably be considered a chef on that basis alone but I consider have formal training or at least lots of experience in a commercial kitchen a must for a chef). Now here is where the confusion lies for most people. There are people who have the experience and the expertise enough to become a chef but are considered cooks (wether that is what their job calls them or due to having a lower position in the kitchen). This posting is supposed to give insight into what you believe makes a chef a chef and a cook a cook not about trying to force other people to believe that your definition is the correct one. Nowadays 'Chef' is a title that can be given to anyone while in the old days it usually means a person who has mastered the art of cooking professionally.  However in my opinion regardless of what title a person is called a 'Chef' to me is a person who carries themselves with professionalism and who has learned how to cook appealing food that is pleasing to both the palete and the eye. To them it is more than a job but more like a calling. There are many people who are already chefs even though they have not mastered a lot of things, they are not professional chefs yet but because of the way they conduct themselves and their station or section they are to me afforded the title of chef and all the honor that comes with it. However I do believe that there is a class of chefs who have mastered their art and they are usually the ones running the kitchens and called chefs. These are the head chefs for whom the most respect is afforded.

I hope some of this makes sense, I'm kinda sleepy right now.


----------



## jadecook

lol, thanks.


----------



## caterchef

PeteMcCracken said:


> Hm, are you equating "Culinary grads" to "chefs"??? I do not believe that is what you meant.


 My Quote was from reply # 89:

Not all "so called chefs"can cook, I have seen Culinary grads that couldn't make a soup or sauce without a recipe....

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifNot even close, there was two statements in one sentence seperated by a comma ie. ,

The culinary grads assume they are chefs because the schools promise for $20K&up they will be. The same as LCB promised Julia Child./img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


----------



## greyeaglem

What's wrong with using recipes or formulas? I haven't made every dish on the face of the earth, and even ones I have done I need to look up if I haven't done it for a few years or not often. Or if a customer wants me to make something I never heard of for some special occasion, what else am I supposed to do? I have to look up a recipe. Doesn't mean I'll follow it to the letter, but still. Besides, I subscribe to the Einstein theory of never wasting time memorizing something I can look up. Also, when I come up with  new things if I don't write down what I put in it I'll a lot of times forget to put ingredients in the next time I make it because I forgot what I did the last time. I have a crab dip on the menu that I don't think I made the same way twice for the first 20 or so times I made it. Until I wrote it down. Usually it's home cooks who ask me if I ever use recipes, and when I say sometimes, they'll get a smug look and say "Oh, I never do." My first thought is "liar" and my second is I bet their families get fed some interesting stuff. A lot of times when they ask what I do and I tell them, they'll say "Oh, I make the best (insert food item, usually involving a crock pot). I'm always happy to talk to people about anything food related, but sometimes I can't help thinking "Do I come into your service station and tell you about how great I can rebuild a carbeurator?" Sheesh.


----------



## foodpump

Dear Jadecook,

I find your interpretation refreshing, and I also find it very common among those who are just starting in this career.  You've got all the right words in there:  Respect, honour, and all that jazz.  But-tum...ah, well..... lets see how it holds up to the acid test.

What's the acid test?

Reality.

Yeah, yeah, I know reality sucks, it doesn't have any background music, and well, it's just so..permanent, I guess.

I hold that a cook, cooks, and a Chef manages.

Lets plug in the reality I-phone app and check my theory out.

If a cook can't cook, out the door they go.  No one wants a lousy cook.

If a Chef can't run a profitable kitchen, or operate within the laws set by health, labour, and building codes, out the door they go.

Am I making any sense here?

Do you see the difference?


----------



## jadecook

I do understand what you are saying about a chef being a manager and not a cook. But like I said this is my opinion of what I think is the difference between a chef and a cook. It's not set in stone and is can be interpreted in many ways.


----------



## foodpump

Fair enough. 

May I ask you not to interpret the disclaimer at the beginning of this forum, where it asks that non-professionals (that is, those who do not earn thier living from the hospitality industry) refrain from posting?


----------



## chefross

WOW!!! I just got through reading all the threads on this subject. I too have what I believe to be a true measure of the definition of Chef:

Kinda, sorta, tongue in cheek if you will:

*"Thank you for applying….you want to be a cook huh?"*

*"No you say,….a chef?"*

*"Okay…I need to step out for a cup of coffee. Please read this, and if you're still here when I get back…then we'll talk."*

*I hand the cocky applicant a couple of 3x5 index cards on which is typed the following:*

*Ok then, here's the MINIMUM BASICS I expect you to know. Each of these skills you will be required to perform rapidly, under pressure, within a set time frame, in a team environment, with minimal supervision. You must work in a safe, organized, clean and sanitary fashion with little or no waste. These skills I expect you to perform with complete competence and understanding of proper techniques and procedure.*

*Ability to dice, slice, chop, julienne, carve, brunoise, peel, and turn standard fruits, vegetables, and proteins.*

*Knowledge of grading, butchering and cooking techniques of beef, pork, poultry, fish and shellfish.*

*Ability to bake, broil, boil, sauté, braise, blanch, grill, steam, stir-fry, and roast primary cuts of beef, fish, shellfish, pork, poultry and vegetables.*

*Know what can be baked, broiled, boiled, sautéed, braised, blanched, grilled, steamed, stir-fried or roasted…….and what can't.*

*Know when a food is cooked enough.*

*Know when a food is cooked too much.*

*Know how long a food is to be cooked.*

*Knowledge of dairy products, fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts and pastas.*

*Stocks, demi's, remi's, fumes and glace. The how's and why's.*

*The 5 mother sauces and those that aren't; purees, coulee's, jus's, essences, foams, etc…*

*Sanitation and hygiene: Safe temperature zones, holding times, cross contamination, basic food borne illnesses, receiving, and storage applications and pest control.*

*Knowledge of nutrition.*

*Full service, working experience of a la carte pantry, grill, sauté, and expedition.*

*Knowledge of salads.*

*Knowledge of salad dressings - vinaigrettes, and emulsions.*

*Ability to prepare steaks and roasts to desired doneness by internal temperature, time, and feel.*

*Service of hot food hot and cold food cold, and all that this implies.*

*Strong Garde Manger skills to include but not limited to hot and cold buffet/platter presentations, center piece art work, and hors d' oeuvres.*

*Basic baking and pastry skills*

*Write, execute, and delegate mise en place and prep lists.*

*Menu development, costing, testing, training, set up and execution.*

*Read, create, write, calculate, adjust, and tweek recipes.*

*Knowledge of basic first aid.*

*Safely operate and maintain slicers, mixers, food processors, buffalo choppers, convection and conventional ovens, tilt kettles, flat tops, and steamers.*

*Interview, hire, train, evaluate, organize, lead, discipline, and motivate a staff of your peers.*

*Understanding of food costs, inventories, scheduling, payroll, P&L statements, marketing, ordering, and receiving.*

*Understanding of labor laws to include equal opportunity employment, workman's comp, sexual harassment, and employee discipline and termination procedures.*

*"Let me ask you, did a book give you this knowledge?" "Yes…some" you say*

*"Did your 2 year associate of culinary arts degree give you this knowledge?" "Yes….some" you say.*

*"Great, please go over in detail your experience and expertise in each area I've listed that qualifies you for the chef's position………..I thought so…………."*

*So "endth" the rant!!! LOL Not to be taken too (cough) seriously.*


----------



## bazza

Ok ok I know this is dragging on but.......... I am still confused here and Im probably not the only one. From what I am reading there is only one chef to a kitchen (correct me if I am wrong) And he is the only one with the honour of being called Chef (the boss). This is the guy I would call a Head Chef. So, the restaurant hires a Sous chef, a chef de partie and a couple of commis chefs. Do they not have the right to be called chefs? or do they become sous cook, cook de partie and commis cook. The whole idea of only one chef in the kitchen does not add up to me, this is confusing guys.

I find this whole thread slightly silly and regret that I have been drawn into it but I have not been able to fathom a clear definition here. "Navel gazing" as another poster so brilliantly put it LOL


----------



## free rider

caterchef said:


> I never stated Julia was a cook or a Chef, personally I would not have hired her for a potwasher.
> 
> She was the most sloppy person I ever saw in a kitchen on TV or otherwise. Back then PBS would give a Spot to just about anybody talented or not.
> Originally Posted by *KWilkinson*
> 
> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif


My grandmother did the Le Cordon Bleu school thing in about the same time period as Julie Child. It was sort of the thing to do for women who could afford it and then they would direct their kitchen at home in the preparation of meals for little dinners with important clients or whatever. My grandmother most certainly does not refer to herself as a chef even though she directed her kitchen staff and can produce the most excellent meals even without the staff. This was not in the United States, btw.

As for Julia Child, she was doing this European fad-thing of the gentry of the time (or whatever you'd like to call it) and somebody teamed up with her to produce a cookbook for Americans. Now in the US of A, marketing can take you a long, long way. Here too, the title is about marketing. Isn't it?


----------



## titomike

Bazza

Its the same in NZ and Aus(& possibly Europe?)....The Head Chef is the boss unless the place is big enough to need an Exec. All employment websites, advertising and training facilities concur with this.

Train/Study...graduate/qualify...get a job title. Its the same for most trades/professions so what's so special about ours?

IMHO it seems to be a language issue restricted to North America so I also tried to resist getting involved.

If the underlying issue is really who is _not _a chef I suggest we stay out of it as our cultural definition seems too simple to be acceptable despite the lack of meaningful consequences.

Cheers Mike /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


----------



## foodpump

Bazza said:


> Ok ok I know this is dragging on but.......... I am still confused here and Im probably not the only one. From what I am reading there is only one chef to a kitchen (correct me if I am wrong) And he is the only one with the honour of being called Chef (the boss). This is the guy I would call a Head Chef. So, the restaurant hires a Sous chef, a chef de partie and a couple of commis chefs. Do they not have the right to be called chefs? or do they become sous cook, cook de partie and commis cook. The whole idea of only one chef in the kitchen does not add up to me, this is confusing guys.


Look, take a look at a large newspaper or a magazine. There are sports editors, news editors, all kinds of editors, and then the the big one, THE Editor.

Chef is really no different. True, you may have a Chef garde-manger, but he is only boss of the garde manger, or Entremetier or Saucier--that is, _they manage thier respective stations. _Yet they still have to answer to the big guy, get his approval on new menu items, wierd and wonderfull new ingredients, new equipment, trading off staff inbetween stations. It's the Chef's food cost, labour cost, and reputation on the line, not the Chef de partie's or the Sous.

You can only have one big Chef in a kitchen, same as you can only have one Prime Minister or President of a country--each Chef has their style of management, cooking, etc.and what they say, goes. The big guys take all responsibility and credit, when things go good, they shine, when the place looses money, or reputation, they get tossed out.


----------



## jadecook

I hope that no one is taking what I said too seriously like I said I was just trying to get across my point of view but I may have come off sounding a little like a know-it-all and for that I apologize. I probably should have kept my big mouth closed because I do not yet have any formal experience to speak of and I just randomly stumbled upon this forum (a knack I seem to have of  accidentally by-passing things and ending up places where I'm not supposed to be) and since the question has always peaked my interest I decided to post. I'm sorry if I have offended any of your professional chefs or is it cooks (or wait no its chefs right? Now I'll never know what to call you all) sensibilities I apologize for any rudeness and lack of general experience. But hey, thanks for commenting anyways, its nice to know that you care enough to respond. I hope you all have a great day!


----------



## bazza

foodpump said:


> Look, take a look at a large newspaper or a magazine. There are sports editors, news editors, all kinds of editors, and then the the big one, THE Editor.
> 
> Chef is really no different. True, you may have a Chef garde-manger, but he is only boss of the garde manger, or Entremetier or Saucier--that is, _they manage thier respective stations. _Yet they still have to answer to the big guy, get his approval on new menu items, wierd and wonderfull new ingredients, new equipment, trading off staff inbetween stations. It's the Chef's food cost, labour cost, and reputation on the line, not the Chef de partie's or the Sous.
> 
> You can only have one big Chef in a kitchen, same as you can only have one Prime Minister or President of a country--each Chef has their style of management, cooking, etc.and what they say, goes. The big guys take all responsibility and credit, when things go good, they shine, when the place looses money, or reputation, they get tossed out.


Thank you for clarifying, although my post was a little tongue in cheek, I appreciate what you are saying. It is the same system over here. We do however call everyone a chef with the exception of the KP. This debate would probably never take place in England, it would be more like;

"Im a chef"

"Oh right, where do you work?"

"I work in XYZ down the road"

"Nice place, so are you the head chef, sous, or what?"

"No, I am chef de partie"

"Oh, nice one chef, I'll come in for a meal"

A chef is a chef is a chef. So even if you have never worked any higher than a commis, you are still a chef. As I said earlier we really don't use the term "cook" very much to describe a position.


----------



## foodpump

No, a cook is a cook is a cook, and we have the exact same problem here in N.America.

"My husband is a gourmet Chef"

"Oh, where does he work?"

"Oh, he's a fireman, but he cooks the most wonderfull meals".

Continental Europe is a different story.  During "My Time" ('80's and '90's) when you picked up a telephone directory, the person's name, address AND profession would be listed.  Either you were a cook, or you were listed as "Eidgenosische Diplomierte KuechenChef", a title that takes a minimum of 3 years prepatory courses, and a failure rate of 50%.  Cooks proudly call theselves cooks, and non-professionals call themselves "Hobby Cooks".  No one dares call themselves a Chef unless they have a brigade to work under them.  Apprentices work 3 years before they get their papers, and when they get their papers, they have achieved the title of "Cook". I did mine in Switzerland, which has 4 national languages

and in each language on that document, it states that I succesfully completed my apprenticeship as "Cook".

Many of my cousins have thier own business in Europe, and thier employees refer to them as "Der Chef", and this has nothing to do with cooking, Chef simply means the Boss.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Language is like philanthropy.  It's not how much you love but how much you are loved.  Gotta love Wizard of Oz philosophy, no?

In other words, individual cooks and chefs don't get to define the term.  It's a function of common usage, not technical jargon. 

The horse is out of the barn and for good or ill the term has become democratized and/or debased to include just about anyone who fires a pan in anger.   Humpty Dumpty left the building and not all the king's horses and men can restore the highly restrictive meaning that so many long time long-time professionals seem to yearn for.

The etymology of the word is just "boss," and nothing more.  In the days before restaurants became very popular and wealthy people dined in one another's homes, they maintained large kitchen staffs.  The chef was the boss of a French kitchen staff.  In England, staffs were less kitchen-centric and the same person was called "Cook." 

Near the end of the XIXth Century, at around the same time "fine dining" out of the home became popular, Escoffier "invented" the brigade system for large hotel kitchens (which, by the way were greatly responsible for the change).  It was based on his experience in the military, and just as in the army a kitchen included cooks (culinaires) of a number of ranks -- including several degrees of "chef."  The English are naturally great Francophiles and when Escoffier Frenchified English dining, they embraced the terms.  

Like food, language changes.  Just as not a lot of people still dress poached fish in stiff Parisiennes (all the rage in 1919), the terminology has evolved too.  You don't have to like it, but at some point you're going to strike people as a little meshugge or certainly old-fogeyish when you stick your fingers in your ears every time someone uses the word in a way you don't like. 

And yes, television has done a great deal to debase the term -- just as it's done a great deal alter meany other meanings.  It should come as no surprise.  That's what the "mass" in "mass media" means.  That's democracy for you. 

On a personal note, because of the limits of my experience I was always extremely uncomfortable with applying the term to myself.  But since people I respect as accomplished chefs in their own right call me "chef," it's too much like false modesty to resist.  So, somewhat like a chef d'partie I accept it for limited purposes.

And the ragging on Julia Child is a lot more interesting.  What did she do?  She only changed the way we all think about food, and managed one of the most infulential kitchen of the twentieth century.  But since she couldn't make Chicken ala King from memory, once dropped a towel on the floor, and never catered for thousands at a time, she was (a) no chef; and (b) unworthy to work in certain high-end cafeterias. 

Well, Hallelujah for that.

BDL


----------



## bazza

Ha ha yes, my husband thinks he’s a chef, and when he sees you in your white jacket he will want to bore you senseless about how he makes a [email protected] tiramisu at the fire station.

Everything has evolved since the brigade system was introduced but we still hold on to parts of the tradition. I don’t know why we do, it’s just the way it is, we still have a monarchy and most of us want to get married in a church. But the fact is, very few are religious or indeed royalists.

I was surprised when I entered the industry just ten years ago that I could hold my own in a professional kitchen with no formal training. When I started applying for jobs I was very rarely asked for qualifications, I’m not saying that it didn’t happen but when it did and I had to admit that I was self taught it was not a big deal, they were more interested in my CV (or resume).

People called me chef from day one and I was also uncomfortable with it, but as long as I could wow the diners with my food and I was doing my job well, they were none the wiser. I opened a restaurant and successfully sold it on and have worked in many kitchens since. The naysayers were gobsmacked to say the least.

In the modern world it is not the title that makes the chef, it is the chef that makes the title.


----------



## caterchef

boar_d_laze said:


> Language is like philanthropy. It's not how much you love but how much you are loved. Gotta love Wizard of Oz philosophy, no?
> 
> In other words, individual cooks and chefs don't get to define the term. It's a function of common usage, not technical jargon.
> 
> The horse is out of the barn and for good or ill the term has become democratized and/or debased to include just about anyone who fires a pan in anger. Humpty Dumpty left the building and not all the king's horses and men can restore the highly restrictive meaning that so many long time long-time professionals seem to yearn for.
> 
> The etymology of the word is just "boss," and nothing more. In the days before restaurants became very popular and wealthy people dined in one another's homes, they maintained large kitchen staffs. The chef was the boss of a French kitchen staff. In England, staffs were less kitchen-centric and the same person was called "Cook."
> 
> Near the end of the XIXth Century, at around the same time "fine dining" out of the home became popular, Escoffier "invented" the brigade system for large hotel kitchens (which, by the way were greatly responsible for the change). It was based on his experience in the military, and just as in the army a kitchen included cooks (culinaires) of a number of ranks -- including several degrees of "chef." The English are naturally great Francophiles and when Escoffier Frenchified English dining, they embraced the terms.
> 
> Like food, language changes. Just as not a lot of people still dress poached fish in stiff Parisiennes (all the rage in 1919), the terminology has evolved too. You don't have to like it, but at some point you're going to strike people as a little meshugge or certainly old-fogeyish when you stick your fingers in your ears every time someone uses the word in a way you don't like.
> 
> And yes, television has done a great deal to debase the term -- just as it's done a great deal alter meany other meanings. It should come as no surprise. That's what the "mass" in "mass media" means. That's democracy for you.
> 
> On a personal note, because of the limits of my experience I was always extremely uncomfortable with applying the term to myself. But since people I respect as accomplished chefs in their own right call me "chef," it's too much like false modesty to resist. So, somewhat like a chef d'partie I accept it for limited purposes.
> 
> And the ragging on Julia Child is a lot more interesting. What did she do? She only changed the way we all think about food, and managed one of the most infulential kitchen of the twentieth century. But since she couldn't make Chicken ala King from memory, once dropped a towel on the floor, and never catered for thousands at a time, she was (a) no chef; and (b) unworthy to work in certain high-end cafeterias.
> 
> Well, Hallelujah for that.
> 
> BDL


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifThe ragging on Julia Child hapenns because it needs to be said. I was watching the new "Cooking Channel" last night (a PBS rerun) for a little while and she was on and couldn't even poach an egg properly after three attempts and even burned the home made english muffins. If PBS had made such a mockery of the medical profession they would have been sued. Chef Boyardee did a better job of making people aware of our profession, even if the pasta is overcooked by Italian standards, that's how "us kids" learned to eat pasta. and even my kids didn't like pasta al dente, they would say it isn't cooked enough. To give such a person praise for making our profession more noticeible by the public is like saying Dotor Dolittle is a heart surgeon./img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif P.S. What kitchen did she manage besides "the 'KQED'studio set"?


----------



## gypsy2727

Julia never made any false claims to fame or statements.

She did change the Art of French Cooking for women in America  She did make mistakes on live t.v. and did not have them edited later when she could. I love her honesty. That was the beauty of Julia Child.

Let her Rest in Peace

Gypsy


----------



## free rider

gypsy2727 said:


> Julia never made any false claims to fame or statements.
> 
> She did change the Art of French Cooking for women in America She did make mistakes on live t.v. and did not have them edited later when she could. I love her honesty. That was the beauty of Julia Child.
> 
> Let her Rest in Peace
> 
> Gypsy


I believe she also made mention publicly that she couldn't really cook (I remember a video clip, but can't remember the source). It was the love of food, not her cooking ability, that advanced her "career". That career was very much marketing the idea of good food and how to make it.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Originally Posted by *Free Rider* 


> I believe she also made mention publicly that she couldn't really cook (I remember a video clip, but can't remember the source). It was the love of food, not her cooking ability, that advanced her "career". That career was very much marketing the idea of good food and how to make it.


That's going to require a citation. It appears to me be false on its face.

While she never managed a hotel's night room-service kitchen, worked the turn and burn at Applebee's, or whatever qualifies for "real" experience in your eyes, she was a Grande Diplomee of LCB in Paris and a successful, professional cooking teacher for several years in Paris before collaborating on Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and could certainly cook very well indeed.

I never ate her food, but know people who did. No one seemed disappointed. I was told she knew her way around a wine list pretty well too.

She wasn't my favorite TV cooking teacher of the sixties, Graham Kerr was. But anyone who watched The French Chef (broadcast without edits) and couldn't tell that Child was an accomplished and skillful cook is, in some way, deluded or blind.

My 2 cents,

BDL


----------



## free rider

boar_d_laze said:


> That's going to require a citation. It appears to me be false on its face.
> 
> While she never managed a hotel's night room-service kitchen, worked the turn and burn at Applebee's, or whatever qualifies for "real" experience in your eyes, she was a Grande Diplomee of LCB in Paris and a successful, professional cooking teacher for several years in Paris before collaborating on Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and could certainly cook very well indeed.


Why do you choose to call me a liar? Why do you try to characterize what qualifies for experience in my eyes when I haven't even done so? Your attitude is rather defensive in its offensiveness. Perhaps it's just that, as a lawyer, you are taking "adversarial" a step too far (I vaguely remember you mentioning being a lawyer some time back, but I may be wrong. You can provide a citation one way or the other if you want).

The clip I saw was with Julia Child and, possibly, her husband. I don't own a television set, so I was somewhere in public where sets are just about unavoidable these days. It was on some show somewhat before she died and she was talking about her life. I have no idea what show it was or what year the clip came from. I remember it because I see so little television and I find food topics of interest. Feel free to look the clip up yourself if you want.

She was the following the fad of her time. It was the skill of the marketing team and not her skill at cookery that made her famous and she said as much in that clip. Even she knew it and was willing to admit it in that clip. If you'd like to prove otherwise, you can provide a few citations where she was boasting about how great her cookery skills were. Not books or other that an editor or producer was involved with, but something that she said sans marketing team.

I find most of your posts to be rude and condescending to everyone and really don't care to fulfill your "requirement" (not even request, but you decide to "require"). I have better things to do with my life and only read this post of yours as it quoted me.


----------



## just jim

I have more respect for a cook who self effaces than one who touts themselves highly.

Julia shouldn't be expected to say how great she is (was), others should.

And they have.

My 2 cents.

Spend it as you wish.


----------



## petalsandcoco

If I could do 1/10 of what she managed to do in her life, title " Chef " , yes.

*A Tribute to Julia Child (1912-2004) *

We say farewell to Julia Child, America's first celebrity chef. Julia single-handedly changed the way we think about food in this country. With a dozen cookbooks to her credit and untold hours of delightful television shows, she demonstrated her mastery of French cooking with unparalleled grace and ease. We thank her for her contributions to the culinary world, and especially for teaching us to savor life.

Julia Child was born in Pasadena, California and graduated from Smith College in 1934. After college, she worked in publicity and advertising in New York, and during World War II, she served with the Office of Strategic Services in Washington, D.C., Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), and China. After the war, at the end of 1948, her husband Paul Child was assigned to the U.S. Information Service at The American Embassy in Paris, and Julia enrolled in Le Cordon Bleu Cooking School. There she met her two French colleagues, Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle, and they subsequently opened a cooking school, "L'Ecole des Trois Gourmandes," which resulted in their joint book, Mastering the Art of French Cooking, published in 1961.

Julia and Paul eventually returned to the States, and after a television interview at WGBH-Boston, the station asked Julia to try out a series of TV cooking shows, and The French Chef was born on February 11, 1963. After some 200 programs on classical French cooking, she branched out into contemporary cuisine with the television series, Julia Child & Company, Julia Child & More Company, and Dinner at Julia's. In 1984, she completed six "The Way to Cook" teaching videocassettes.

Child was host for the PBS series "Cooking with Master Chefs" with a different well-known chef for each of the programs, and also for the series "Baking with Julia." She also participated in a technique-based series with Jacques Pépin called "Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home." The companion cookbook has been on bestseller lists throughout the U.S.

Julia Child's books include: Mastering the Art of French Cooking; The Way to Cook; The French Chef Cookbook; Baking With Julia; From Julia's Kitchen; Julia's Delicious Little Dinners; In Julia's Kitchen with Master Chefs; Julia's Casual Dinners; Julia's Menus for Special Occasions; Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home; Julia's Breakfasts, Lunches, and Suppers; and Julia's Kitchen Wisdom: Essential Techniques and Recipes from a Lifetime of Cooking.

Julia Child received honorary degrees from Boston University, Bates College, Rutgers University, Smith College, and Harvard University. She was awarded the Ordre de Merite Agricole in 1967 by the French government, and in 1967 by the French government, and in 1976 the Ordre de Mérite Nationale. She was elected a member of the Confrérie de Ceres for her work on French bread, and is a member of the American chapter of the Commandérie des Cordons Bleus de France. She was awarded two national Emmy's: in 1995 for her "Master Chefs" series and in 1997 for "Baking with Julia." In 1999, she received the Peabody Award from Public Television.

Mrs. Child was an active member of the International Association of Culinary Professionals, and a co-founder of the American Institute of Wine & Food.


----------



## foodpump

Regarding Julia Child, I have a rather unique perspective.

-I have never seen her on TV

-I have never read any of her books.

Heck, I haven't even seen Meryl Streep's imitation of her.

So I have no opinion of her at all.

Yet from what I gather, the information about her tells me she can cook, and quite well.

So, is she a Chef?

Everybody has a different definition of what constitutes a "Chef".

So, going out on a limb I offer one last perspective of this definition, the opinion of probably the most important person--the employer.  Without the employer you have no job, no kitchen, no stage to shine on.

What criteria does an employer look for in a Chef?

-The food and labour costs of the applicant's previous job

-How well the Chef manages his resources

By resources, I mean the "Three":  1) Manpower, 2) Equipment, 3)Ingredients

Cooking is not listed, it is assumed.  Just as it is assumed that anyone who walks into a library or a bookstore can read.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Free Rider,

I apologize if I left the impression I thought you were a liar.  Rather, I felt and feel that you were mistaken.  Otherwise, I look forward to reading more of your contributions.

BDL


----------



## kyheirloomer

I don't understand the Julia bashing that's been taking place the past few years. Those I know personally who have expressed disdain for her, and many of the anti-Julia comments I've read, seem to be from people bearing the title "chef," but who are either unsure of themselves, or are the types who make themselves feel taller by cutting their betters off at the knees. There are many, too, who seem to feel the title "cook" is somehow denigrating.

In my stint as a culinary professional I was a cook, and proud of it.

Was Julia a chef? Not by most definitions, including her own. But so what? It is likely that nobody has had more influence on the state of cookery in America---and that includes professionals as well as home cooks. Start making a list of the top chefs who claim they wouldn't have entered the field had it not been for her. I wonder how many of the Julia bashers can claim any sort of influence beyond their own kitchens?

Among other things, she virtually invented the modern form of TV cooking show. Her show (and, let's remember, that she didn't name it, so let's not blame her for it) was directed at home cooks, and became instantly popular because it came across as real. I reckon the professionals who bash her never make mistakes; never drop a tool or a piece of food; never misread a recipe. But she did. And home cooks, who also do that, responded to her for that reason.

Beyond the show, her books, appearances, teaching venues and organizations further influenced the field in immeasuable ways.

Most of all, she made America aware that good cooking did not involve some sort of occult arts; that it was something anyone could learn to do. And that during the process you could always eat your mistakes.

I wonder, if the Julia bashers listed their accomplishments and influences, how they'd stack up against hers. My guess is they'd be found wanting.


----------



## leeniek

I think that while Julia did not work in a pro kitchen she did leave her mark on how North Americans view food and cooking.   She obviously loved food and  loved to cook and she laid the groundwork for the cooking shows that followed hers.  (mind you the state of the FN today would likely repulse her as it does many of us)   She took the mystery out of making a "wow" meal and showed her readers and viewers how to do the same.  So she may have been a slob in the kitchen but let's think about it for a sec.. how many of us when we are knee deep in the weeds and the jungle is just around the corner are worried about picking up the onion bit that hit the floor or wiping the three drips of cream that are on the counter behind us?  I'd say none of us as we are too busy getting ourselves back on track at the time and we clean as soon as we can.  Does that make us any lesser people than we are?  I say not and the same goes for her.  I think though she was ahead of her time and she had to really fight to get to where she did. 

I wish my mother had been given a copy of her cookbook... my mom wasn't the best cook and trying new things was not her cup of tea but I think if she had a cookbook that explained things clearly she might have been more inventive at least as my dad would only eat beef, ham and sausages.  I hate potatoes to this day because every day growing up I had to eat mushy potatoes as that was how my dad liked them.. *bleck*


----------



## free rider

foodpump said:


> Regarding Julia Child, I have a rather unique perspective.
> 
> -I have never seen her on TV
> 
> -I have never read any of her books.
> 
> Heck, I haven't even seen Meryl Streep's imitation of her.
> 
> So I have no opinion of her at all.
> 
> Yet from what I gather, the information about her tells me she can cook, and quite well.
> 
> So, is she a Chef?
> 
> Everybody has a different definition of what constitutes a "Chef".
> 
> So, going out on a limb I offer one last perspective of this definition, the opinion of probably the most important person--the employer. Without the employer you have no job, no kitchen, no stage to shine on.
> 
> What criteria does an employer look for in a Chef?
> 
> -The food and labour costs of the applicant's previous job
> 
> -How well the Chef manages his resources
> 
> By resources, I mean the "Three": 1) Manpower, 2) Equipment, 3)Ingredients
> 
> Cooking is not listed, it is assumed. Just as it is assumed that anyone who walks into a library or a bookstore can read.


Not so unique, Foodpump. I only ever saw her on TV for that one clip that I mentioned.



KYHeirloomer said:


> Was Julia a chef? Not by most definitions, including her own. But so what? It is likely that nobody has had more influence on the state of cookery in America---and that includes professionals as well as home cooks. Start making a list of the top chefs who claim they wouldn't have entered the field had it not been for her. I wonder how many of the Julia bashers can claim any sort of influence beyond their own kitchens?
> 
> Among other things, she virtually invented the modern form of TV cooking show. Her show (and, let's remember, that she didn't name it, so let's not blame her for it) was directed at home cooks, and became instantly popular because it came across as real. I reckon the professionals who bash her never make mistakes; never drop a tool or a piece of food; never misread a recipe. But she did. And home cooks, who also do that, responded to her for that reason.
> 
> Beyond the show, her books, appearances, teaching venues and organizations further influenced the field in immeasuable ways.
> 
> Most of all, she made America aware that good cooking did not involve some sort of occult arts; that it was something anyone could learn to do. And that during the process you could always eat your mistakes.


KYHeirloomer,

I agree with a lot of what you say, but remember too that her marketing success (tv, books, etc) was all done with collaboration. People seem to forget the collaborators. It was a team effort and it's not clear that she was the driving force. Perhaps that is why there is some backlash these days.


----------



## kyheirloomer

Certainly it was a team effort, FreeRider. But then, and now, the team is rarely acknowledged by the star.

Sandra Lee, to pick an extreme case, has a staff of 23 just to make her show happen. How many of them can you name? What about her publicists? Book packagers? Manager of her fan club? Can you come up with even one name?

So I don't think the Julia bashing has much to do with that, but for deeper reasons.


----------



## free rider

Who is Sandra Lee?  (remember, I don't own a TV set).  I guess out of the 24 on the team, I could name none, including the "star".   

Edited to add:  Googled her and got a wikipedia page that calls her... a cook!


----------



## mamang6

Before these chefs became chefs, they had mothers who cooked for them and became their inspirations. So I am one of those mothers, and now I a have a daughter who became chef and a son-in-law who's also a chef.


----------



## llauralight

Boar_D_Laze and KYHeirloomer, I love your diplomacy in the face of negativity--especially regarding Julia Child-- Thank you! I first cooked Julia Child's coq au vin in 8th grade for a French class banquet, and I have never looked back. My children call it purple chicken, by the way. 

From the perspective of a now non-professional cook: Is there joy in the cooking/creating/eating? I get great joy and satisfaction from feeding others amazing food....I would hate to have that joy taken away, but I do recall the smell of chocolate becoming nauseating after 500 or so truffles on a wedding cake.....

Mamang6, Thank you for your fresh perspective.  My children are not old enough to be professional anythings, but they do enjoy a wide variety of really good food....fresh peach pie in a shortbread crust,  crisp fried okra, buttery stone crab claws and garlicky escargot are a few favorites--My son was a two year old brie eater. Perhaps he will be a chef. Maybe the people who are non-professional yet inspirational cooks should start a new thread? 

Have a beautiful and delicious day!


----------



## free rider

Julia Child failed the LCB exam the first time she took it.

Please don't forget her collaborators (not including her husband and book illustrator)  Louisette Bertholle and Simone Beck.

Personally, I don't care either way about Julia Child as she had no effect on my life, my cooking or anything,  I have never read her books, used her recipes or watched her cooking show.  I just find it curious that so many want to call her some sort of goddess of the kitchen when she is obviously just, well, normal.  Better than Rachel Ray, I'm sure, but normal.  Who knows what would have happened without her apparently forgotten and unacknowledged collaborators (is that because Americans are loathe to applaud a French person, but will put the American on a pedestal???).  Marketing to the American requires an American?

As with everything, balance.  Idolizing a person will lead to a balance in terms of negative facts being presented.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Originally Posted by *Free Rider* 


> _Personally, I don't care either way about Julia Child as she had no effect on my life, my cooking or anything, I have never read her books, used her recipes or watched her cooking show. I just find it curious that so many want to call her some sort of goddess of the kitchen when she is obviously just, well, normal. _


If you never "read her books, used her recipes or watched her cooking show" how can you judge her as "just, well normal."

Regarding your own cooking, what's your professional background?

Also, regarding your own cooking, how is it possible to cook in the modern French style without being in some way influenced by Child? It's like saying you're not influenced by Escoffier, Pellaprat, Pierre Franey, Michele Guerard, Paul Bocuse, or Alice Waters (who can't cook a lick) -- even if you don't realize it, it's almost impossible to be completely free of their respective and collective influence.

BDL


----------



## gypsy2727

Oh Julia is probably rolling in her grave laughing at all the attention she is receiving!

Julia was not an attention seeker.

Julia wanted people to be informed and not be shy to cook.

I know from actually reading and owning quite a few of her books that she was of the belief to be well informed before commenting or striking an opinion .Which she always did.


----------



## petemccracken

Free Rider said:


> Better than Rachel Ray, I'm sure, but normal. ...


Hm, interesting observation from one who states "(remember, I don't own a TV set)" in a previous post to this thread.


----------



## free rider

PeteMcCracken said:


> Hm, interesting observation from one who states "(remember, I don't own a TV set)" in a previous post to this thread.


I've read this forum and have seen what has been posted about Rachel Ray. I've also heard it from others. Would you like to come over to my house to check the veracity of my statement? One is often better informed without a TV than with one.


----------



## kyheirloomer

So, are you saying you formulate your opinions based on what others think? How sad!


----------



## free rider

KYHeirloomer said:


> So, are you saying you formulate your opinions based on what others think? How sad!


Are you saying the opinions of the chefs and cooks on this forum are worthless? How sad!


----------



## free rider

PS How about attacking Foodpump for not reading, watching and glorifying Julia Child?  How dare I say anything negative about the American Julia Child?  For goodness sake, get over yourselves.  She got over herself and that has been confirmed by even Gypsy, who states that Julia Child didn't want attention and wanted cooking to be accessible.  To make it accessible, it has to be done by someone not absolutely perfect.

Btw, KYH, does the TV tell you what to think?  Really.

I guess this site is not tolerant of non-idolizing opinions of the precious TV idols.  Unless, of course, it's what the befuddled masses are on about.  Can't be the dissenting opinion, I suppose.


----------



## cape chef

Hey folks, it's time to pull down your pants and slide on the ice "M.A.S.H." Relax.Think about the history of music. It may help put this thread into perspective.


----------



## bazza

cape chef said:


> Hey folks, it's time to pull down your pants and slide on the ice "M.A.S.H." Relax.Think about the history of music. It may help put this thread into perspective.


LMAO this is so funny. What does M.A.S.H. mean?


----------



## gypsy2727

Bazza said:


> LMAO this is so funny. What does M.A.S.H. mean?


M.A.S.H. : Mobile Army Surgical Hospital I don't think it has anything to do with this thread ( Sure does sound cool though ) ...But I do think that was Cape Chefs point /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


----------



## boar_d_laze

I wondered about the "M.A.S.H." reference in cape chef's post as well. However, my first reaction was to "it's time to pull down your pants." My thought was, _Oh no you di'int. _

BDL


----------



## chefedb

BDL I stand along side you when it comes to Julia. I believe she did more for the American housewife and food prep.  then anyone in her era. She simplified the mystique that was attached to French Cuisine. I know she was a great influence on me. Harold Mc gee is not a great chef, but he knows the how and why  of foods and cooking processes as did Ms. Child. Would James Beard be a chef? Who is to judge .All I know is what they did for the profession.and I thank them both. EJB


----------



## boar_d_laze

Ed, it never surprises me when we agree.

BDL


----------



## chefedb

BDL  Oh well I guess it's just age!!!!!!!


----------



## kvonnj

I just use "Cook," and I use it with tremendous pride. I don't need some "title" or "rank" to know what I'm about.


----------



## culinuthiast

"Awareness is the key to your upheaval from mediocrity."

- anonymous


----------



## rocktrns

Well I noticed that most people that dont work in the industry thinks that everyone that cooks is a chef. I had a chef jacket on the other day when I was going to work and some lady just assumed I was a chef,but I told here I was cook. In my eyes a chef is an executive chef or someone that is given the position of CHEF in a job such has executive chef,or sous chef. I think allot of people get the title mixed up.


----------



## Guest

my opinion is that it's all about the experience... it annoys me to the highest degree when people fresh out of culinary school call themselves a chef as the title 'Chef' is known to mean 'Head'. i myself happen to be a graduate and i HATE when people say, oh you're finished. that means you're a chef now right? ARGH it bugs me soooo much. If you so insist on seeing those 4 letters next to your name, just add on the additional words while you're at it; 'chef de partie' ; and go right back to peeling onions.

people need to work years and years to earn that title. there are so many things that are yet to be learned and it's not something you read in a textbook. how to deal with irate customers, what to do when something goes faulty in the kitchen, how to deal workers that have absolutely no concept of sanitation... the list goes on and on really.

now ask me if the over glorified racheal ray is a chef. my answer is a straight up NO


----------



## zane

From a student perspective a Chef to me is someone who either is running the kitchen (executive) or has the word Sous in front of their title. If the word "chef" is not in your title then you're not a chef. On the flip side, if you were a chef at one point and now teach or are retired I think you can still call yourself a chef.


----------



## justcookit

I believe this is one of the most widely abused terms, you always hear of the backyard person that cooks a steak on a BBQ and 

suddenly their friends are calling them a great Chef, while there are great cooks that can pull off a great backyard BBQ this doesn't

and shouldn't give them the title of Chef. To earn that title I believe you should have to go through the long shifts, even do a cooking 

competition and turn around a make a great simple sandwich. a true chef will put everything into the last meal that they serve.You are only as good as the last meal you serve.

A true Chef will run their kitchen being able to do everything that they ask of their chefs and cooks, and usually better than they can do,

I wouldn't ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't do, sometimes working over 100 hours in a week, cooking is a lifestyle.


----------



## chrisbristol

I think it depends on where you live. In england you would always be called a chef. As a beginner you would be a commis chef. In america I think you would be a line cook at this stage. A cook can actually be used as an insult in England.


----------



## halb

I was talking to a 12 year old kid yesterday who mentioned that they were talking about the culinary industry at his elementary school. He said that he knew some job titles- chef, sous chef and sanitary chef. Sanitary chef? Is that what they are calling dishwashers now to make the job more attractive???


----------



## foodpump

Drop chef

Is the person who "drops" the fryer basket....


----------



## Nvchef

I have been in the restaurant business for more than 30 years. I have worked in the front and back of the house, as well as a contract caterer for one of the best companies in San Francisco. My chefs were in charge, "what chef says goes". Today, I wouldn't be able to tell you what credentials any of them had, it didnt matter. So many in this forum have referred to the historical definition of "chef". Ask anyone who has really worked in proffessional kitchens for years, chef is the one who runs it all. End of story.


----------

