# Looking for new work horse chef knife



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

I want a 9-9.5 inch chef knife that is pretty thin and has a hollow grind, a little flex to it, that I'm not going to have to baby. Probably like 59-61 HRC. Stainless or Semi. With either a european handle or a D handle. And obviously a bolster that doesn't extend to the edge of the blade. The Misono UX10 with dimples is kind of what I'm looking for, but I think the cheapest i can get the 240mm version is $400; which seems a little steep. I'd like to not spend more than $300. 

The Zwilling Euroline Essential is one knife I was looking at, although it only comes in 8 inch and 10 inch and I don't know what kind of grind is on that. Mac also has a 9.5 inch damascus chef knife, but I don't know what kind of grind is on that either. Would really love some suggestions.


----------



## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Kanehide PS60 240mm is a great knife. https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kapsgy24.html

Also comes in Wa versiosn. https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kapswahagy24.html


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The dimples do almost nothing for you. What country you in?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I don’t understand why you want a hollow grind. Can’t think of any reason for it on a kitchen knife other than it’s a very cheap and nasty way of thinning the blade


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

@foodpump , I believe he is referring to the Granton-like little dimples, rather than a fully concave edge like on straight-razors and the cheap knives you refer to.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

rick alan said:


> The dimples do almost nothing for you. What country you in?


The US and Ok, I cave on the hollow grind. So I guess the question becomes how hard can I go before i start losing out on versatility for the sake of keeping the edge longer? If I go 61 HRC am i going to have to switch blades when working around bones? Also If i go mac, thoughts on Professional vs Ultimate vs Damascus lines?


----------



## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

If you are worried about bones then don't get a Japanese knife. Stick with the German stuff, or get a bone saw, or heavy duty cleaver.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

mike9 said:


> If you are worried about bones then don't get a Japanese knife. Stick with the German stuff, or get a bone saw, or heavy duty cleaver.


If you want a light chef knife that in a pinch can work with bones, what would you choose? All german chef knives are so bulky. So then you get what, like a Misono Molybdenum is 57-58 which is the same as many German knives. Is it in any more danger of chipping?


----------



## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Are you chopping bones, or just in contact? If contact then the PS60 should serve you well. It takes and holds a very keen edge and with a micro bevel will take quite a bit of punishment before it needs a fresh trip to the stones.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

mike9 said:


> Are you chopping bones, or just in contact? If contact then the PS60 should serve you well. It takes and holds a very keen edge and with a micro bevel will take quite a bit of punishment before it needs a fresh trip to the stones.


just in contact.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

atatax said:


> If i go mac, thoughts on Professional vs Ultimate vs Damascus lines?


I have the professional line chef knife, 10 3/4" MBK-110. I used a Henckels for 20 or so years years before switching to the MAC about 20 years ago. Absolutely love it!!!

I don't care as much for the ultimate line. Definitely heavier and more German in style.

I don't know anything about the damascus line.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Granton edges or dimples were originally used on slicing knives—for ham, roast beef, and especially smoked salmon. Does anyone still know how to slice a side of smoked salmon?

Anyhow, the thought process behind the Granton edge is that as you draw the knife through moist sticky foods, the little pockets of air in the Granton edge prevent the slices of meat from glueing themselves onto the blade. And it does work pretty well for this application. But for a workhorse knife?


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Granton edges or dimples were originally used on slicing knives-for ham, roast beef, and especially smoked salmon. Does anyone still know how to slice a side of smoked salmon?
> 
> Anyhow, the thought process behind the Granton edge is that as you draw the knife through moist sticky foods, the little pockets of air in the Granton edge prevent the slices of meat from glueing themselves onto the blade. And it does work pretty well for this application. But for a workhorse knife?


So like, you're going to have a separate knife for sticky foods? It seems like it might also make it less likely for most foods to stick if you're doing like a fine dice. If I can julienne without the veg sticking to the blade, then i'm going to be able to dice it a lot faster. The purpose of a chef knife is to be versatile. Why wouldn't I want to make it more versatile?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

‘Cause the Granton edge is prone to chipping very easy, as a good part of the edge is substantially thinner than the rest of the edge.

They are also harder to hone, and don’t keep their edge as long as a regular grind bevel.

Julienne of, say pepper or celery root doesn’t stick tenaciously to the blade like smoked salmon or cheese. Completely different texture, cell structure, and moisture content.

Workhorses are workhorses, they’re the ones you use to motor through a bag of onions for fr. onion soup, the ones you use to cut watermelons in slices, peel butternut squash, cut pork loin into schnitzels, and separate chicken drumsticks from thighs. Maybe chop nuts when the robot coupe is broken, and whittle away those stupid 5 kg slabs of solid chocolate.

Now, when I’m slicing and sawing through a couple hundred bucks worth of prime rib, or steamships for large buffets, I have a separate knife and matching fork for that—I don’t use it for anything else. Same goes for slicing smoked salmon/graved lax, I have a separate slicer with a Granton edge that is flexible and long and narrow. Theses two knives are not workhorses, they are thoroughbreds, bred for a specific purpose.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

foodpump said:


> 'Cause the Granton edge is prone to chipping very easy, as a good part of the edge is substantially thinner than the rest of the edge.
> 
> They are also harder to hone, and don't keep their edge as long as a regular grind bevel.
> 
> ...


I don't see how a graton makes it harder to hone or more prone to chipping when they don't reach the edge. Maybe after many years of use, you wear it down to the graton.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Then that’s not a Granton edge. A true Granton is dimpled right to the edge because that’s where the cutting action is, and that’s also where the slice is separated from the item you are cutting. 

Look, if a slice of food has to crawl 3/8”-1/2” up the blade in order to reach the “Granton” grind/hollows in order not to stick to the blade, then that food item doesn’t need a Granton edge in the first place, right?


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Then that's not a Granton edge. A true Granton is dimpled right to the edge because that's where the cutting action is, and that's also where the slice is separated from the item you are cutting.
> 
> Look, if a slice of food has to crawl 3/8"-1/2" up the blade in order to reach the "Granton" grind/hollows in order not to stick to the blade, then that food item doesn't need a Granton edge in the first place, right?


can you link me an example of a knife with a "true granton"?


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)




----------



## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

...


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The one behind is the wider Plain-Jane Victorinox, I’ve done many a steamship, ham, and too many turkeys to count with this ‘un. It’s semi flexible

The second, narrower is a “ Dreizack” or Trident from Wusthof. Both are from the late ‘80’s, and I know Victorinox and F.Dick make this type of blade. It’s very flexible and is pretty much only for Fisch, although I have used it for terrines and pates with some success.

When using these knives, you will get a sensation of “pushing air”; that is as you draw the knife forward, each dimple or “Kullenschliff” as the Germans like to call them,forces a minuscule pocket of air between the slice and the item being sliced. And, of course, because of the dimples, there is less knife blade surface area contacting the slice which also helps reduce sticking to the blade. The blade is purposely narrower, as again, less blade surface area translates to less sticking of the item to the blade.

Most N.American knife retailers don’t stock this, although if you do know what you want, you can order them from Europe.


----------



## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

foodpump said:


> The one behind is the wider Plain-Jane Victorinox, I've done many a steamship, ham, and too many turkeys to count with this 'un. It's semi flexible
> 
> The second, narrower is a " Dreizack" or Trident from Wusthof. Both are from the late '80's, and I know Victorinox and F.Dick make this type of blade. It's very flexible and is pretty much only for Fisch, although I have used it for terrines and pates with some success.
> 
> ...


It might not be what you consider a true graton, but many retailers have something similar for NA. https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-series-gyutogyuto180mm-to-gyuto300mm-5-sizes or https://www.messermeister.com/colle...cts/meridian-elite-kullenschliff-chef-s-knife for example


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I have a petty knife of 65rc+ that I will use the tip portion of to trim around bone, but a have it conservatively microbeveled there. It's not something you do with your Japanese gyuto/chefs though. So you have chefs knife, and something else for butchering.

For a first Japanese knife I often recommend the Geshin stainless line. Thin at the edge and not overly hard. For a little bling the Geshin Gonbei Hammered.

Then you will need some stones.

BTW, yes granton dimples are for slicing, as foodpump graciously elaborately. They do reduce stiction there and prevent stuff from sliding away with the knife, like when you are cubing tomatoes. Grantons at the edge are easy enough to deal with so long as you thin the blade at an adequately shallow angle, so the highs transition into the low troughs of the dimples. Most of these knives are of rather soft steel, and combined with the thin edge I know first hand cannot even deal with roasted turkey tendons without putting "bad" dimples on your edge.


----------

