# Your work chefs knife, a discussion.



## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

If for nothing else but the fruits of discussion I'd like to hear what you guys use, or would use, should you be say an average prep/line cook pumping out volume, for your chefs knife. What attributes do you consider ideal for a knife in this atmosphere, and why?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Loving cooking the tactile sensations of cooking, and respecting the role of the knife in providing them, it's a question to which I've given much thought over the years.

Sharpness: The "absolute" sharpness of the knife at any given moment; it's ability to take a truly sharp edge; the lack of difficulty required to put that edge one; and the knife's ability to hold the edge over time with only simple maintenance between full sharpenings.

Geometry and Ergonomics: Is the handle comfortable? Is the blade long enough? Light enough? Too much belly? Not enough? Thin enough to satisfy the sharpness criteria?

Robustness: Can it handle the jobs I see frequently? A cook who splits rib tips and chops gourds needs a stiffer and tougher (in the metallurgical sense) than one doing fish and _mirepoix_.

If I were going back on the line tomorrow, there are three knives I'd consider first: 1) An Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, white steel (Shirogami 2); 270mm wa-gyuto if I could get away with something that thin; 2a and 2b) the Masamoto KS 270mm wa-gyuto, or Masamoto HC 270mm yo-gyuto if I couldn't; and just maybe... 3) After all the decades I still like my 10" K-Sabatier _au carbone_ quite a bit.

The Sabatier doesn't get as sharp as either Japanese knife, but sharpens far more easily; wears at a geological rate; world's best geometry; needs frequent steeling, but almost never needs more; and is hard to hurt by merely abusing the $#*! out of it. A few other knives have tempted me enough to buy, but I keep coming back to the Sabs.

If you've never used a super-thin knife made from a quality alloy like a Tadatsuna wa-gyuto, you have no idea of how sharp a knife can be and don't know what you're missing.

The Masamoto KS wa-gyuto and Masamoto HC western style gyuto split the differences very nicely -- and with Masamoto geometry. The most outstanding thing about either Masamoto (and a few other lines as well), is not the things they do super well (which are manifold), but that they do everything very well and nothing poorly.

Finally, don't underestimate the importance of a good sharpening kit and the skills to use it; nor the importance of good knife skills either. Those three things, the knife, the way it's sharpened, and the skill with which it's used form a picture that would be incoherent with any one of them were missing.

BDL


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Sharp, clean, comfortable, and.... that's it.

Anything over $100 a knife and I get nervous. Theft/ loss is common and the fallout from something like that can effect a kitchen for days, if not weeks.

If the knife is over $100, that usually means it's too expensive to get sharpened by a "regular" sharpener. THAT means that either A) the guy knows how to properly sharpen, which is quite rare, maybe about 25% of most cooks can competantly sharpen, or B) that the guy messes up "sharpening" his knife and shows up for work with a cheap (dull) "backup" knife.

When you start to really navel gaze, you'll come to udnerstand that a knife is just a hunk of steel with a sharp edge, the magic is in the user's hands....


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, those are the types of considerations I like seeing BDL. I've been through plenty of discussions of peoples 'ideal' knives, but a lot of us don't talk strictly about 'work' knives much.


Certainly some valid points FP, and nothing that can really be argued with too much. I would certainly not wish to bring an all star cast of knives to a place of work I couldn't trust too much, but I don't feel too much worry in bringing perhaps just a nice quality chefs knife, or whatever other main particular knife I'd be using most should I feel the quality makes adequate difference to purchase in the first place.

However, what Would you bring to work as your chef de chef, and what attributes seal the deal for you, for a Work knife, as opposed to just a general 'ideal' knife.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

You're luckier than me. In my experience almost no cooks can competently sharpen. In 20 years in the kitchen I can count 'em all on one hand.

What I look for in a duty knife:

1) It must be able to take a screaming edge. No point in talking about how long it stays sharp if it doesn't get sharp to start with.

2) Edge retention. Once sharpened it should hold an edge well; not for months- that's not realistic in a knife that gets heavy use- but certainly for a good length of time.

3) Ergonomics. It has to have good balance and geometry.

4) Geometry. To expand on the above, it has to be thin behind the edge yet have enough metal behind it to be sturdy. A delicate balance to be sure.

5) Toughness. It should be fairly durable. When properly sharpened it shouldn't be overly prone to chipping or rolling of the edge.

6) Attractive. Assuming you work with a trustworthy bunch, it never hurts if it inspires a little envy.

My current favorite gyuto is an Akifusa 240mm. It's very thin, very light and very sharp. It seems to hold an edge forever, too. And it passes the 'envy test.'


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Pumping out volume I am familiar with. Most chefs and cooks I worked with in the hotel casino biz used the Forschner fibrox and Rosewood stamped blades.
Why? Easy to sharpen and maintain as well as the local supply house gave a discount for them to casino employees. Once a year there was even a 1/2 off sale so why not.
Also when a knife roll gets pinched by a friendly co-worker it just does not hurt as bad. Greatest knife NO. Good yes and a work horse. I love my old Hi Carbon knives and also rotate them frequently but I watch them a little closer also:thumb:


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

All our house knives are Forschner Fibrox. They're solid knives for the price but I'm not impressed by their edge retention. Then again, they're definitely not being babied, either.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

My knife roll certainly has a cheap chefs knife tossed in for grunt work (at the moment honestly a henkles international), however the next logical question for you guys is when do you rotate in your nicer knife over your workhorse, and vice versa? When do you decide to use your 'premium' knife, aside from jobs that may damage the blade? For those of you who choose a premium knife over something like the fibrox, what is it that makes the decision for you? Increased sharpness? Other attributes?


Thanks for the input thus far all.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Edge retention is an issue:look: Most knives in your operation sound like they are used hard. For a pro fast volume I would go cheap { Like mine ] :smoking:

Learn how to maintain the edge! Be it machine or store bought Pull through
{Yikes}.BTW, Impressions are that. Reality just slides through :lol:


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

I love it! Just a hunk of steel. So true..................


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

At the moment that falls under the heading of "not my problem.":lol: A couple years ago I took a step back from being a full time chef in order to become a full time student. Now I work the line to pay the bills. I do a lot of sharpening for coworkers and my boss but I'm not really ready to take on the task of maintaining the house knives, although I've considered it. I have a belt grinder and a lot of belts that are nice for knives, just not a good place to leave it set up just now. And there's the time issue.

A working kitchen is a tough environment for house knives. For every person with good habits (wash them, use a cutting board, use them for cutting food as opposed to opening cans, etc) there's at least on clueless guy that tries to send 'em back to the dish room. :laser:


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## chefray (Sep 29, 2009)

I once had a dishwasher trained to bring all of the knives up and hand them to the Chef or myself(I was Sous at the time). We knew who had what in their personal kits and the house knives got hand washed and hung for the night. It kept some idiot from sending a good knife through the washer and messing up someone else's edges.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Or worse yet, it keeps some poor bastard in the dish pit from losing a finger. Nothing is more inconsiderate, reckless and just plain dangerous than throwing a sharp knife in a bus tub full of silver, and yes I have seen it done! How's that for a surprise, reaching into a your water and hitting a razor sharp chef's knife?


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## chefray (Sep 29, 2009)

I've never run into that, but it would be horrible.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Ouch  Yes you have a reason to be upset! I try to give all my new cooks a
demo on how to use and treat a knife and I pay extensive attention to the part about you clean and maintain the knife you use as well as no dropping in the pot and pan sink and walking off! The results of course are human and there will still be those who lazily or perhaps from prior training want to send the knives to the dishwasher. In the casinos in Reno where I worked they had a good solution as they did not provide tools such as knives, whips, spatulas, tongs, ect. If you were hired you provided your own tools and upkeep! Just like a mechanics tools are normally not shop bought. I even had cooks who used there own egg and omelet pans ( these were company bought ) but would stash them away so no one could mess them up and wash them: Professionalism is the key to success but the larger and busier the operation the harder it is to maintain this level especially at the pay rate we offer our help. Maybe thats why I just maintain my cheap knives and am saving the more expensive for a good home kitchen when I get one (yes even the wife and brats are into knife abuse), although my old hi carbons are far from cheap knives in my world:thumb:


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I have a grunt knife in the roll as well. I don't use it unless my primary knife has a major malfunction or walks away. To date, I have had the malfunction happen but no theft (thank God).

My cool and nifty 240mm UX-10 is used for prep, and depending on where I am at service, and in what kitchen.

If I'm crammed into a line that only has a deli-prep-size work area, I'll use a shorter knife. I haven't found the perfect "Petty" or utility knife yet - but any slicer-looking knife that's 6-8" works fine.

The uber-complete knife roll is usually left in the car. I stick everything I use in my bain, and if I need a baller or a slicer or whatever, then I'll just bring the whole case in at that point.

"Backup Knife" (or the one in my roll at the moment I guess) is a Wusthof Cordon Bleu 8" Chef. It's thin, fast and sharp. I have had to use it a few times - and have let another cook borrow it once.

For my own personal preference, and the kind of cooking I do - the UX-10 at about 9 1/2" just worked well. It isn't the greatest knife in the world and not the worse either. It just works for me.


Algavinn said:


> My knife roll certainly has a cheap chefs knife tossed in for grunt work (at the moment honestly a henkles international), however the next logical question for you guys is when do you rotate in your nicer knife over your workhorse, and vice versa? When do you decide to use your 'premium' knife, aside from jobs that may damage the blade? For those of you who choose a premium knife over something like the fibrox, what is it that makes the decision for you? Increased sharpness? Other attributes?
> 
> Thanks for the input thus far all.


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## dr owl (Jan 19, 2011)

trooper said:


> ... the UX-10 at about 9 1/2" ... isn't the greatest knife in the world and not the worse either. It just works for me.


Just out of curiosity, Trooper, but why do you say this? Is there some knife you see as being your ideal ... though possibly too valuable to take into a busy kitchen? Or is it just a recognition that an expensive specialist knife is better at its task than a general-purpose gyuto?

The reason I ask is that the Misono UX10 seems to be a strong candidate for being the best mass-produced stainless yo-gyuto in the world

(along with Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, Hattori FH, and probably others).

Later,

John


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I have to think now, to answer your question, Dr. Owl. . .



Dr Owl said:


> trooper said:
> 
> 
> > ... the UX-10 at about 9 1/2" ... isn't the greatest knife in the world and not the worse either. It just works for me.
> ...


I concur with the fact: A knife designed for a specific task is always better than any knife that is not - no matter the cost.

The first time I walked into a commercial kitchen I had my full compliment of tools, cutlery, everything.

(And yes, I laugh when I see a stage or new cook do the same thing now.)

I made some minor adjustments to my UX-10 for practical reasons:

- It sports a 15/15 bi-lateral edge

- I sanded/polished the spine ahead of the bolster somewhat so it is more comfortable.

The perfect knife (for me) would look very much like a UX-10 but:

1. My above mods would come stock.

2. The rear angle from bolster to heel would be another couple degrees forward - so the heel would land maybe 3mm ahead of where it lands as-is.

- In the image I have the tip of my Sharpie pointing at where it should start, and the black line at where the heel should land.

3. The belly would be just slightly flatter before the radius comes off the board - Give me another couple centimeters of full contact on the board.

4. It would be more like a full 10" instead of 9.5", but no longer than 10.25"

5. The knife as a whole would be forged with the bolster, or at least make the bolster the same material as the blade.

6. The whole of the knife would be better finished - like the grinds you see at the handle radius (I'll post a pic)

7. The handle is perfect in every way for me - length, geometry, diameter, everything - but I would make the pommel (back) of the handle solid - much like the bolster.

- The solid pommel (just a couple centimeters at the rear of the handle) would help with some of the beating the wood handle takes through normal use.

If I found a knife that did all that, and had the same thickness and flex as the UX-10 - I would buy one and probably two.

And I would never deny a working knife the right to be dropped, chipped abused and banged around in a commercial kitchen.

No matter how much a knife costs, if you can't use it to earn money, it is worthless.


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## dr owl (Jan 19, 2011)

Goodness, Troop! You have thought about your ideal knife in detail. Thank you.

And thank you for the photographs: they make your dreams very clear.

A number of thoughts ran through my mind as a read your post.

I shouldnt be surprised that a professional has a much clearer picture of his or her ideal knife than an amateur like me.
In my limited experience, and substantial reading, I've never seen anything exactly like your ideal. I suspect it would have to be custom made.
The Workshop Style of many of the smaller Japanese smiths means that they might not understand some of your wishes. The quality of the blade is everything: the fit of the handle is much less important, and the finish of the blade hardly matters at all. Of course the customer will have his or her views on the initial profile and on a rounded spine, but he or she (or the shop) will implement those when preparing the knife for use. (I've even had a couple of Global knives arrive unsharpened.) On the plus side this does mean that Workshop Style knives are very good value for money compared with western-made Wedding Present knives.
Some of your wishes would be met by French-made knives. Looking at an elderly carbon Sabatier chef's knife, the edge remains straight for about 70% of its length. And of course a length of 25cm would be no problem. But it would be ruined for you by the heavy vertical finger-guard at the heel of the knife.
You could always, I suppose, start with a 27cm UX10, reprofile the blade, round the spine, grind a forward angle on the heel ... and then grind the spine down in a gentle curve to meet the edge 26cm along. But that's easy for me to say: I wouldn't have to spend two day's sweating over a coarse whetstone!
Later,

John


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

1. I think people who use knives every day fall into one of three buckets:

a. They don't care and are more likely to use the house knives if there are any, or whatever they got in culinary or along the way is just fine.

b. They will use any knife, but expect it to be sharp. They will use their own knife - but may or may not sharpen it themselves.

c. The have a clear picture of that they want, and care about and for their cutlery, but will use any knife on hand if that's all they have. (I'm in this bucket)

d. They spend more time and money buying and sharpening their knife than they actually spend cooking with it or investing in other key items the job demands quality from.

On 1.d - a perfect example is a cook that wears ratty whites, ratty shoes and always needs a peeler, a microplane, a silicon spatula, whatever - But they have a $400 knife on their board.

2. Maybe Minsono or JCK will read this post and make a Chef trooper, special edition knife? That would be awesome! 

3. I think the workmanship of any effort would consider those other elements. I'd bed the steel is made in one factory and the fitting is done in another in most cases.

The Shun Elite is a perfect example of quality steel and no thought in design. The handle on those knives may work for Hulk Hogan, but not most cooks I know.

4. That is exactly why a lot of experienced cooks like their old K-Sabs - The geometry. If they could take a 10" K-Sab profile and use a Minsono blade, that would be a very cool knife.

5. Wouldn't it be cool if you had to build your own knife as a requirement to be called a cook? Like your unique Jedi weapon, LoL. I built my own M1911's - same concept.



Dr Owl said:


> Goodness, Troop! You have thought about your ideal knife in detail. Thank you.
> 
> And thank you for the photographs: they make your dreams very clear.
> 
> ...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The UX-10 is a very nice knife; although now that there are a lot more really good Japanese made knives available, it can't be considered the world-beater it once was -- either in terms of bang for the bu. I like nearly everything about it, but feel it's a bit on the narrow side -- not only something of a knuckle buster but skimpy on the steel if you're a frequent sharpener.

If you're actually looking for something which may be a better fit:

A Masamoto VG might be just right for you - it has a profile very Sabatier-like profile and the quality of the alloy is similar to Misono. You're not going to beat the UX-10 handle with any Japanese manu, factured knife except for a MAC Pro or Ultimate. The Masamoto handle has very good ergonomics -- just maybe a quarter step behind the Misono and MAC. Blade geometry is unbeatable though.

If you want something stiffer than the UX-10, look at the MAC. I prefer the MAC's geometry to the Misono's but like the Masamoto more than either.

Those three are all excellent knives -- but to some extent they are also knives whose time has past. That is, they're all made (whether forged or blocked) from alloys which are no longer flavor of the month. The UX-10 in particular is widely acknowledged to be somewhat difficult to sharpen. I've sharpened several and while the Swedish sourced alloy is "tough," that's not anything I've noticed. Maybe it depends on your kit or your standards or something else. Who knows?

Sorry to hear that your UX-10 has F&F issues. Misono is generally good about that, especially with the top of the line UX-10. They're usually head and shoulders above run of the mill of the Japanese made kitchen knives.

If you can live with the price tag, you might want to take a look at the Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (western) Inox. Here's a link. They run thinner than the UX-10 with a slightly wider blade and edge geometry a little more like what you're describing than the Misono gives you. The Tad is as good as a wa-handled, stainless knife gets.

The Kikuichi TKC is also very nice, but semi-stainless and cheaper than the Tad.

As a working pro, you really shouldn't have any trouble adapting to a 27cm knife. The difference between 24cm and 27cm feels far less significant than the differences between 21cm anbd 24cm, and between 27cm and 30cm. Just trust me.

Have you considered a Japanese handled knife? There are a lot more options.

As always though, everything depends on sharpening. If you're serious about something different -- that's probably the best place to start.

BDL


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Between BDL and Dr. Owl, I should just send each of them 500 bucks and see what they come up with -

You both each know a lot more about the brands, options, technical attributes and use cases for what I'm looking for than I do.

I'm looking at both of your lists of suggestions - among (Quote copy: Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, Hattori FH /   Masamoto VG Masamoto VGMasamoto VG Masamoto VG ; MAC Pro or Ultimate ; Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (western) Inox ;   Kikuichi TKC)

I like the standard Western handle on a full-size knife. Not to say I would pass-over something with a perfect working design if it didn't have one - I just don't know how I would feel about splitting an acorn squash with a slippery hand and a smooth, round-handle knife. I know I could/would do it safely, but probably a half-second slower.

The the 9 1/2" minimum to 10 1/4" maximum length range isn't for any other reason than that's just the sweet spot for a working knife. I have some 12" and 14" scimitar and butcher knives if I ever feel the need to hack a side of beef or go on a killing spree. I'd make a terrible killer however, because I'd be worried about nicking my blade on a rib cage or something, lol....

Not really looking to replace my UX10 at the moment, but anything that is better (in a working, functional, practical sense) than what you have is always worth considering.

I'll let you guys know if I come up with anything. Thanks for the guidance!


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## dr owl (Jan 19, 2011)

That's very gracious of you, Troop -- thank you -- but I must deny being an expert.  I'm a retired mathematician, and a wine buff, who came here to how to sharpen better.  It's the Pussycat who is the cook in our household ... the knives are only mine when they need sharpening.

BDL -- who IS an expert -- implies, very gently, that my assessments are somewhat out of date.  Fair enough.  It would be interesting to know what are the current candidates for "the best mass-produced stainless yo-gyuto" ... but that would be the subject for another thread.

John


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Based on the few professional Western kitchens I have observed, and on the notion that in some hypothetical alternate universe I would ever be mad enough to be working a prep line in one of them, I would go with the Masamoto KS-27. In those kitchens, at least, theft is not a significant issue, you're responsible for your own tools in your own way so long as it's up to chef's standards, and nobody gives a d**m what you use if you get great results. I'd sharpen it 50/50 or close, steel it if necessary, and I am confident that it would demonstrate everything I love it for now.

EEEVIL sharpness, lack of flash, perfect shape and balance, weird sharpness retention, odd sense of "readiness."

I don't know quite how to explain what I mean, but I'll try.

KC Ma, who shows up around here sometimes and is a pal of BDL's (and mine, electronically), and is into really bonkers sharpening things, swears that he's never seen a gyuto that gets as sharp as this thing. My experience is that nothing is so easy to make frighteningly sharp as this. So that's one down.

The thing automatically and instantly patina's down to a dull grey blah, which I like. It's sort of like, "hey, screw this whole 'art knife collector's item thing, can we get to work please?'" I like that kind of thing.

As to shape and balance, you'd swear it weighs half as much as it does, and it doesn't weigh much. Point the tip somewhere, blind, and it's exactly where you expect it to be. Perfection.

Then abuse it. Do some things you shouldn't and promise yourself you'll really hit the stones tomorrow. When you do, you'll really struggle to figure out where you did the wrong thing, because it didn't change the knife a whit. I don't know why, but it's true.

And then there's the "readiness" thing. I cannot convey this to someone who hasn't used this thing, but I have used a variety of pretty hard-core Japanese knives. I have, and use constantly, some reasonably high-end single-bevels, sharpened well. But when I take out the Masamoto I always get this same feeling: "okay, now it's time to get serious, no messing around any more." Somehow, the usuba, the yanagiba's, they feel just a hair prissy and special-interest. The deba's, it seems like maybe they're just for special butchering things or something. But the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto? I don't know, it just slides into the hand and says, "let's play."

I know, car analogies are overdone, but this is the real deal: the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto is a Ferrari, minus the constant repair shop stuff.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I pulled the trigger on this about 5 minutes ago: http://www.echefknife.com/hagane-yo-gyutou-chef-knife-10.5-270mm.html


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## dr owl (Jan 19, 2011)

Congratulations, Troop.  I hope you will be very happy together.


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm goung to modify the knife when it comes... I'll post before and after pics. Here is the knife I ordered, from the vendor site image (I actually ordered mine off of amazon)

Simple Mods:

1. Radius the Chole(sp?) - Flat heel of the knife will be radiused somewhat.

2. 2000-grit wet/dry sand/polish of sides.

3. "Soften" the baclstrap and bolster to get rid of sharp right-angles.

4. Sharpen the edge a bit - not sure what angle, but about 1000-grit

5. Force a uniform blood-patina before pressing into service.

Should be here in the next 7-12 days. I need to look at stones now. I have a set of IDK-WTF-they-are-model combi-stones that have worked fine for me since the dawn of time.

Now you guys are talking about 1k, 3k, 5k, 10k-grit stones..... BDL, just post links to what I really need and I will blindly purchase on your reccomendation.

This is what I use currently:


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey -- I have some old Carborundum brand stones somewhere. I forgot about those. Brings back memories.

Honestly, I'm mostly bumping this, to be sure somebody can give you really good advice about waterstones -- and you do need them for this knife, if you're going to love it. But that progression you listed is totally unnecessary. Setting aside coarse, you want something like 1k, 3-5k, 10k or 2k, 5-6k, 10k. And the 10k is mostly for fun anyway: you mostly get benefit of that kind of super-high polishing with a dedicated slicer. But it is fun.

Let me ask one question before somebody else does: what's your budget for the stones, grand total?


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Would $1k cover needed stones, resurface plates, mounts/bases and whatever else is in a good kit?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Yikes! Yes, it certainly would. I'll wait to see what the experts say about this, though -- my recommendations are worth very little in this area.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The sky would be the limit for $1,000.  You could easily get a complete set of Naniwa Chocera stones for that with money left over for a J-nat or two.  Heck, maybe even a 42" Kalamazoo grinder.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

$1K is far more than you need -- I think -- for what you're trying to do.

It depends what you're trying to do, of course. If you're going to be sharpening a lot of yanagiba for all the sashimi you do, you might (might, mind you) have a legitimate need to polish the blade roads and edges past the equivalent of 8,000K JIS. But otherwise, no.

Round out your oilstones with a pair of Arkansas, and buy a good four oilstone kit, plus a DMT XXC (to be used as a diamond flattening plate) and you're still looking at less than $500.

You could, I suppose, spend more money by buying Chosera series stones -- but there's no reason to do so. Choseras are only among the best, they do not stand alone there. Other, less expensive, stones are just as good. I have a couple of Choseras, use them, like them, but don't recommend them because they're overpriced. For instance, the no name 10K magnesia stones are just as good as the 10K Chosera and less than half the price.

Getting back to spending (your) money: Perhaps add in a Hand American stropping set and a Hand American borosilicate glass honing rod -- both of which I have -- but at some point you've left the world of sharpening for effect and entered the universe of puttering around and hobbyism. If that's what you want, fine; but know that's what you're going after. Then, of course, you'll have to admit that your life is unmanageable because of it.

Trust me. I don't always use my finest stone, a Naniwa SS 8K, and then only for a few strokes. But I'm thinking of replacing it with a Naniwa Pure White or a Kitayama or [gulp] both. Bottom line: I like fooling around with this stuff, I can afford it, so why not? But, I'm not kidding myself that my knives will be significantly sharper. The edge quality might be more slippery; I won't have to flatten as often; and I won't have to guard as vigilantly against gouging; but those improvements are very much around the margins.

If you want a really good working edge, you can do it with a good three stone kit: Beston 500, Bester 1200, and Takenoko 6000. If you want to max your Japanese knives by putting the best edge they can hold for more than a few minutes of cutting -- then we're talking a four stone kit (say Beston 500, Bester 1200, Suehiro Rika, and 10K magnesia), or stropping, or possibly both. But that's as much -- if not more -- about fooling around with knives than cutting onions.

Anyway, if you do prefer to strop your finest edges, you don't _need_ a fine polishing stone -- because you'll be doing that with the strops anyway. For instance, you might come off a 6K to a 1u boron strop and follow that with a 1/2u CrO2 strop. You're not going to get a better edge than that.

Just between you, me and the wall, you might want to start out with an inexpensive waterstone kit -- say 10mm SS or even a 1K/6K combi stone -- and [ahem] hone your skills (including flattening) before running out and spending a lot of money on a complete high-end set. Also, at this point, it might be worthwhile to start participating, or at least lurking, in a more knife oriented forum (I recommend Fred's Cutlery Forum as the sanest and least backbiting). Not that you're not getting very good advice here, but you'll see a wider spectrum and get a better feeling for what the consensuses are.

_Bottom Line:_

The recommendations you asked for -- but without the links.

You've got a lot of knives that you'll want to keep using that will sharpen best on oilstones. As a set, I really like: Norton coarse India; Norton fine India; Hall's soft Arkansas; and Hall's Surgical Black Arkansas. "India" is Norton's trade name for aluminum oxide. Crystolon is another Norton (who owns Bear) trade name for Silicon carbide. In my opinion the aluminum oxide stones are easier to control and tend to scratch less, and I use the (venerable) Norton IB-8 coarse/fine India combi stone. But if you like your synthetics, there's no need to trade them for the Indias.

Arkansas stone quality varies very much by quarry, by vein within the quarry, and even by the position in the vein. Most of the historically good quarries in the Ouashitas (where Arkansas stones come from) are pretty much played out. Hall's, though, has a good quarry and they sell really good stones. I'm particularly high on their Surgical Black and think you'll love it as a final stone for most of your Euro knives. They're also very reasonable, as these things go. You can get Hall's from Hall's Pro Edge online. Don't get anything shorter than 8" or narrower than 2". 8x2 is very convenient and well priced; but you may want to go with longer and/or wider. Bigger is faster.

You may want to bolster your oilstone set with a Norton IM-50 sharpening station. Good idea.

You need a good honing rod. For now, go with the Idahone 12" fine ceramic. Chef Knives to Go sells it, and I believe Mark calls it the 1200 or something like that. Later, you can add the Hand American glass if you're of a mind.

You'll find that waterstones work so much better on hard, strong knives and oilstones on softer, tougher knives, that it's worth owning a set of each.

I've already talked about the Bester 500, Beston 1200 and Arashiyama (aka Takenoko) 6000. I think those are all outstanding stones. You can either flatten on dry wall screen (lifetime supply for around $10) or with a DMT XXC (around $90 unless you find it on sale which sometimes happens at Amazon). I suggest bypassing the coarse ceramic sharpeners. They're not worth the money or effort.

You can get a waterstone holder if you want, but they don't really add enough height to make them significantly better than the non-skid, waffle, rubber drawer liners you already have rolls of in your garage. But to each his own.

All of the waterstones are available from Chef Knives to Go. In fact, I've tried to color pretty much within the CKTG lines to make it easier for you. Mark sells everything but the Hall's soft Ark.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

BDL, Thanks! I'm going to poke around CKTG and make some orders next week. I'll post what I came up with.

Your experience and time is of great value to this community. THANKS!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I envy you guys and your knives... the only blade I seem to care for as carefully as you is the straight razor I use to shave with.

For working knives I have two sets: home and "to go"... the working blades.

At home I have old Heckels 4-star and Shun Classic. I have a severe case of Japanese knife envy but too cheap - err, thrifty - to buy better Japanese knives. But I look at them all of the time and drool a lot.

For the working blades, I like sharp and something I won't cry over if it takes a walk without me. So I have an few older carbon steel knives: 8" Sabatier that I treat more like a paring knife, a 10 inch no-name stamped steel with wood handle and a 12 inch no-name stamped steel with wood handle.

If I keep reading the tales and exploits of this forum I might be "shamed" into buying some Japanese knives that I can use to cause envy amongst my friends and family. Who knows?


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Well - here is the new family member. . . Ordered, shipped and delivered in three days. Wow. I added my 240mm UX10 for comparison between the two...


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## trooper (Jan 21, 2011)

Brian, I like your set. I feel the same way: I didn't know I needed a "better" knife until I decided I needed a better knife. Lol.

That 8" Nogent is sweet looking. If you suddenly hate it, PM me.   : D


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

BrianShaw said:


> I envy you guys and your knives... the only blade I seem to care for as carefully as you is the straight razor I use to shave with.
> 
> For working knives I have two sets: home and "to go"... the working blades.
> 
> ...


Brian, it's not a question of envy and shame -- or shouldn't be.

Have you ever used a medium-high-end Japanese knife? I mean, honestly, you might not like them: you're clearly serious about cutlery if you use Sabatier carbon, but Japanese knives are a lot lighter. I also don't know how old (or set in your ways) you might be: you might see what the fuss is, as it were, but be uninterested in re-learning basic things you learned umpty-zillion years ago, if you see what I mean.

If not, and you want to give it a go, these knives are really not so expensive as all that. Think about it: you fill up on gas, that's $50 or so these days, and you probably do it once a week. If you decided to take a break on driving just because there's rain or whatever, generally cut down on fuel spending, you might be able to save $400 in 6 months. Or cut corners somewhere else. How much do you spend on cable, compared to that? And so on. And you know what? $400 will buy you one freaking scary Japanese knife, high-end lunacy kind of thing.

I'm not trying to sell you something -- I have no axe to grind. I want you to recognize that there are possibilities other than envy.

Here's one: search around the various knife forums, such as Fred's and KnifeForums and so on, and see if there is someone in your neck of the woods who's got one of those extensive collections of madness. Betcha there is. Go make friends, and see about borrowing something, just for home use, to try out, for one week only, with some kind of absolute promise that if something horrible happens you'll suck it up. Lots of knife people are awfully friendly, because their wives won't talk to them about their hobbies and so they want to meet more crazies. Join in. See if this is a craziness for you.

Envy isn't necessary, and neither is shame. If you get a chance to really try these things, and you hate 'em (or don't see why your great Sab is any less of a knife, which it isn't), then your problem is solved. If you love 'em, you save up, buy something, treat it like royalty initially and soon become inured to it because it's your right-hand-man, and the problem is solved.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I agree with BDL in most respects, but I disagree in one: The 10k Chocera truly does stand alone in a field of one. If you know of another _synthetic_ stone, cheap or not, please PM me. I've found no peer to the Chocera 10k. The 8k Jyunpaka (aka Snow White) is also a marvel, but not quite in the order of magnitude.

BTW, sadly I've "gone down the rabbit hole" of J-nats. I fear all is lost.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

ChrisLehrer said:


> Have you ever used a medium-high-end Japanese knife? I mean, honestly, you might not like them: you're clearly serious about cutlery if you use Sabatier carbon, but Japanese knives are a lot lighter. I also don't know how old (or set in your ways) you might be: you might see what the fuss is, as it were, but be uninterested in re-learning basic things you learned umpty-zillion years ago, if you see what I mean.


 OK, you may have done me a big favor in this post. Now I can tell my wife that although I don't need a new knife... I WANT ONE.

The only Japanese knives I've used are the Shun, but nothing higher grade than that. Those are seriously light and seriously sharp enough for me. Any thoughts I have had of higher-end Japanese knives has been more a matter of "really cool-looking appearance".

I really want one now so I can see what the fuss is about!

Lets hope the logic will work on my wife.

(It isn't really a matter of money, but I have found that the older I get the more likely I am to stop looking for something new when I find what works well -- whether it be knives, or cameras, or women, or cars.)


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