# Started My Starter



## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Well the organic whole wheat flour, diastatic barley malt, honey and raisin water have been mixed according to Peter Reinhart's instructions in Crust and Crumb. My fingers are now securely crossed 

Tomorrow night I am going to start a second starter according to Nancy Silverton. My electric bill may never be the same as I fear AC is the only way to regulate the temp in my NYC shoebox.

Film @11!


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Good for you!I'm sure it will be a success. Stay cool


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## monpetitchoux (Apr 24, 2001)

Kyle: the energy situation is one more reason on my list of why I should move back to NY. Enjoy your ac while it's relatively cheap. I'm sweatin' it out here in California. It's so hot, I start my yeast from cold tap water so the proofing doesn't go berserk even if I bring it downstairs to the garage.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I'm glad to see you're starting both of them. If you look at The Bread Builders by Daniel Wing, he kind of takes a shot at Silverton's method. I started construction of my backyard brick oven yesterday. Also found a throwaway camera at work so I've been taking pix of stuff that I'll share when I get it developed, if I don't lose it.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Looking forward to results and pix.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

One day down, four to go! so far things look and smell good. I am keeping a journal on my web site (complete with pics Kimmie )
http://pages.zdnet.com/kwarendorf/pl...food/id11.html

 with apologies to Svad The Impaler


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

KyleW,

Just been on your website. Wow, this is so much fun. Will you keep it up, every day?

P.S.: Raisin water


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I'm going to give it my best shot! Raisin water is a cup of raisins soaked in 2 cups of warm water for 15 minutes. Then strain off 1 cup.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

A Question...

Both at the end of the first 24 hours and now, after adding th Day 2 ingredients, the starter seems to have separated into almost "curds and whey". Is this normal or do I need to go back to Square One?

Thanx


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Just keep going. If you start freaking out and throwing it away and starting over, you ain't never gonna eat that bread. BTW, I'm telling Peter Reinhart, if I can fiqure out Outlook Express.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

You help me with my starter and I'll help you with Outlook Express, that's what I do for a living 

As long as you say don't sweat the separation, I won't!

Thanx


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

It will keep separating for about 10 days, and then you'll see it bubble up, especially after it's had its longer (overnight) rest.

I took pictures of my starter, but I don't know if I can attach them here. Anybody know if that's possible?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I tried to cut and paste an image here but coulldn't pull it off. I also tried to insert an image link to a pic on my home page but that didn't work either. I'll figure it out.

Reinhart's recipe is for the starter to be ready after 5 days. I'm trying to put this into momoreg's 10 scenario. 

PS I just read the FAQ section. Seems like attaching files is a no-no. It presents a security risk. I could have sworn that the copy/paste trick used to work.

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Momoreg,

With respect to your starter, keep on going. At a certain point, it will look and smell absolutely disgusting, especially the Silverton one. I understand you are doing the grape in cheesecloth method?

[ July 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

http://pub33.bravenet.com/photocente...num=2824016638

Yes, tomorrow it's on to cheesecloth and grapes!

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]

[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Is that a whole wheat starter? Looks like it.

You CAN use a starter after 5 days, but you won't get the same amazing results, as if you waited 2 weeks. And there is a visible difference between a 5-day-old and a 10-day-old.

On the other hand, the method I use begins with grapes in cheesecloth. I have never done it as you describe, beginning w/ raisin water.

Just curious; have you begun your daily feedings? I find that is what really transforms it into a living, breathing creature. Before that, it's just a "bucket of stink", as the sous as work eloquently refers to it.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The Crust & Crumb starter begins with a cup of whole wheat flour. After that it is fed with unbleached bread flourn for 5 days and is then ready for use. 

The grapes and cheese cloth approach is described in Nancy Silverton's book Breads From the La Brea Bakery. It is a 14 day process as she describes it. I have her book, grapes and cheese cloth on my counter 

To The Big Hat: You weren't kidding about telling Peter Reinhart, were you


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

No, I wasn't. I just got mail from him and he's said he's gonna be watching you. He really is a nice guy. I wouldn't settle for that loaf of bread on your web page. You apparently didn't make, so I feel safe saying that. The first time I baked a sourdough from his book, it came out very much like the one on the cover. Follow his method and you'll get the same results. I took pictures all week at work, going out now to get them developed if Walgreens is open. Otherwise tomorrow. I made incredible looking and tasting stuff today, on a deadline no less. I had to push the baguettes a little to have them ready, but they came out beautiful.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I am looking for a better pic. It seems that Peter and I may become PenPals. How great is this place? Where else am I going to get hooked up with the Chef whose book I'm playing with?

For those of you keeping score at home, the Day 2 results are posted at:
http://pages.zdnet.com/kwarendorf/wi...ari/index.html

Thanks again TBH!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Talk about duuuuhhh. I just went to walgreen's and decided not to have the film done now because there are 9 frames left on the roll which I don't want to waste. And I'm sweating on what to do, develop and print and then scan on the nifty kodak thingie there, or have a cd made, except that the images are huge, and all the time there's a schtoopid logitech camera hitched to this dumb puter! I've never used it with good lighting.BTW, I make a double batch of Reinhart's poolish on page 32 of the book almost every day and that separation happens every time. If you notice, a lot of his pizza and focaccia formulas don't use the whole 50 oz. I scaled them up so they do, and then I double that. It gives me either a full sized sheet pan of focaccia, or 10 loaves of bread, which I shape like a ciabatta.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I'd go to Photoworks If I were you. They can do pretty much anything you want with film and image files.
http://www.photoworks.com/main.asp

If you do decide what to do with your filmm maybe I can use your bread on my site 

I can't wait for the weekend when I will be able to use the barm! It will be a litlle longer before the Silverton Starter is ready, she says 14 days. In the meantime I am starting a bread course @Peter Kump's on Monday. In for a penny...


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Well KyleW, your starter looks ugly, just the way it's supposed to and you're own your way to having a pretty mean loaf of bread here. Better than the one on your pic. Sorry I didn't want to tell you but since thebighat brought it up









All kidding aside, you're doing great, I mean it.

Don't panic with Silverton's starter: it's going to look much worse than your first starter. I think the 4th and 5th day are the worst (smell and sight). The first time, when I saw the mold floating, I threw the whole thing out in disgust! I finally got more reasonable after 3 or 4 trials 

I look forward to day 3... and Silverton's Day 2.

[ July 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

Remember in a previous thread, the question came up about feeding a starter three times a day (either you or someone else mentioned that it was impossible for him or her to keep that schedule).

So here's the answer, excerpted from Breads from La Brea Bakery, p. 58

_Making your own bread schedule_

Ideally, for instance, a starter should get three meals a day. But most home bakers with jobs and busy lives will want a more practical solution, and the truth is, like many of us, a starter can survive on one meal a day. But you must give it the equivalent of three meals at once.

_THE FORMULA_

If you've got 9 ounces or about 1 cup of starter, that means you feed it 1 pound 3 ounces or about 4 cups flour plus 5 tablespoons of flour and 1 3/4 pounds or 3 1/2 cups of water at once.

And you should try to feed it at the same time each day. The important thing is to be consistent.

I think this information is quite timely, in the event you haven't read this chapter before.

Hope that helps!










[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

It will become very useful when I begin to feed here starter. It's curious to me that she and Peter Reinhart have such radically different approaches. BTW I have improved, IMHO, the pic on the website 

My Site


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Looks much more appetizing!









...and Steve Sullivan's approach is different too. Another interesting baker is Joe Ortiz. Check his approach in Baking with Julia. He adds cumin in his starter!

It makes breadmaking a non-stop learning experience!

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I don't know Ms. Silverton, and I took her book back to the library without baking anything out of it, and I am sorry to say that even knowing that contempt before investigation will keep me ignorant, I can't bear to even think about her sourdough method. If one feeds a one cup starter once a day with one lb or more of flour, one will quickly have a swimming pool full of starter. Even Reinhart's gets to a point where you split it in half. Feeding it three times a day for two weeks borders, for me, on obsessive compulsive anal retentive behavior that would have me climbing the walls in a nervous frenzy. Once established, these cultures can stand lots of neglect and abuse. Please, someone go read The Bread Builders by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott. He talks generically about starter cultures, without numbers and measurements and takes something that I think people overcerebrate about and simplifies it. Then read and follow Reinhart's formula and you'll get a loaf of bread that you won't believe you made. This is just me, I'm right now an overtired motile mass of irritability. I've had it. I'm going to walgreens.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

You sure are grumpy today, thebighat!!









KyleW,

Here's another book:

World Sourdoughs from Antiquity by Ed Wood.

This updated and revised edition of the successful manual for sourdough-lovers traces the history of sourdough baking from ancient Egypt to modern times.

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Other than that, how did you like her book TBH 

I suppose I am too new at this to know any better. It seemed to me that her method required the same level of attention as a child and I don't have children. That said, I do have a curious nature so I am trying both. The gory progress report is available on my site in about 30 minutes.

How did your pictures turn out TBH?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Sorry, kids. I apologize.

go here:

Reinhart's sourdough
acme baguette from Artisan Baking
flat ciabatta
this is oven bang
in case you were wondering who McSnoogle was....


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

They all look good enough to eat, except McSnoogle that is. My progress has been posted.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I have a question about the accumulation of liquid/alcohol. Is it advisable to pour it off as it accumulates? When I poured it off of the Reinhart starter tonight it almost sprang to life. It was like the liquid was weighing the bubblation situation down.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

No. Just leave it alone. It will get worse again before it gets better. The best part will come when you feed it...

Don't worry!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Hi again,

Should have added last night:

If you have mold appearing on the Silverton culture, just carefully remove it.

-and-

Read her starter pages carefully. She walks you through it:

The 10th day is first feeding day. You need to pay attention to feeding times. Set the feeding to your schedule.

Bye for now!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

TBH,

Took a look at your pics. Nice job.

How long are the Acme baguettes? I bet they don't fit in my oven!!

and McSnoogle is very cute!

P.S.: Wish you had read at least Silverton's starter chapter *in full*...oh well  
never too late to go back to the library...

She traveled and studied and experimented a great deal...


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

The baguettes are almost 25" long. It appears that most of you haven't a lot of experience with naturally leavened breads, so I have this question about these two different methods of growing a starter. Given that the wild yeasts and bacteria one wishes to culture are growing on wheat berries, grapes, raisins, rye berries and so on, what advantage is there to Silverton's laborious process when the end result is a culture more than likely containing the exact same organisms as Reinhart's? Why go to the trouble? It just seems like a long way to go for the same thing.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I couldn't agree more. I am looking at this as an educational experience. I am someone who is as interested in process as I am results. I guess that I knead to prove tp myself that the results, in this case, are the same regardless of the process. Given the laborious nature of Silverton's approach I am unlikely to do it again. That said, I just wanted to try it. 

Just playing with my food


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Day 4 - Meet Frank & Ernest as the Wild (yeast) Safari continues


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

You won't have to go through this ordeal again. My Silverton one has been alive and kicking since about 7 years!


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

That's funny, KyleW! I named my starter too.
I bring Stanley to work with me every day. I talk to him in the car, feed him, weigh him, make sure he's comfortable.... It's really pathetic!


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

today i am doing two breads one from king arthur in my machine - whole grains, malt syrup, olive oil, flax, sea salt, yeast, water.
the other is from Bread Alone, basic hand formed with a poolish fermenting for 6 to 16 hours, we will be forming that one in the am.
fun. flour, water, salt and yeast. No sugar, oil or other enricheners.
this thread is fun!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Frank (enstein) Lives!

Well I think I'm making progress. I am going to be shaping loaves at about the same time as m brown. I think I know now why I don't want to do this for a living  A question: When I took the Reinhart starter out of the Fridge this morning there was some seperation. Not nearly as much as before. I used a rubber spatula to re-blend it. Was this a good thing to do?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I only worry about liquid floating on top of the culture when it hasn't been used for a while. I pour that off. I don't know if you need to do that when the culture is still so young. Guess it wouldn't hurt. It's nothing that the culture can eat, anyway. When is your first loaf of bread going to be ready? this is stuff I made yesterday..
Craig Ponford's Beer BreadIt was ok. I mean, I was gratified that it came out, but I wasn't exactly swooning over it. Other people were. A really nice baguette turns me on, but there's something about blended flour breads that leaves me cold. Interesting technical feat, good to eat,...next.

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The firm starter is in the fridge now. Midnight will be 7 hours. I think that should = "overnight". That means I will be making the dough around midnight, shaping loaves @4AM and baking around 6PM?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

A timing question.

Are there points where you can deviate from the timetable in an effrot to live a somewhat normal life?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Can't get the stupid link to the beer bread inserted. It's at http://www.angelfire.com/country/bakershelper/index.html think.

You need a total of 8 hours between fermentation and proofing. Peter told me it's best to give it more fermentation if you need to juggle the schedule. So I give it five hours of ferment and three of proof. Usually I overnight it. I make the loaves up around noon, assuming a 7 am mix, then let them proof for two hours, into the fridge, and then I pull them out in the morning, let them get puffy and then bake. I've done it in one day, going from mixing the firm starter to mixing the dough, but the firm starter and the culture itself were really active. You don't absolutely have to retard the firm starter or the shaped loaves if you don't want. You just want the firm starter to go about 8 hours in that case, then go right to mixing the dough. If your culture is pretty active, you can feed it around noon on day 1,let it go till bedtime, then refrigerate. Day 2, mix the firm starter by noon, into the fridge at bedtime. Day 3, mix the dough early and have bread for supper, or mix, ferment, start to proof, retard, and then bake the first thing in the morning. The overnight retard I think does more for the look of the loaf than the taste.If you're loaf shaping at 4 am, you should be baking by noon. Unless you want to retard them. I don't think I'd be able to wait the first time around. Be very gentle when shaping- you don't want to hear the air squeaking out of the dough, but you do need to seal the bottom real good. I made 4 loaves today and actually cut one to have a sandwich.
Kids just went for a bike ride. Think I'll watch the rest of Glengarry Glenn Ross.

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

Did you mean 6 AM?

Anyway, I just took a look at Frank and Ernest and both are doing great. Frank is going to deliver a loaf of bread in the morning...I think it's cool. You must be







for joy!

As for Ernest, I was able to see bubbles there, confirming that he's alive and well.

As for your timing question, I try to decide when I want the bread out of the oven and then go backwards in time to make my schedule accordingly.

If you take a look at the "Sullivan schedule" in Baking with Julia, you will be somewhat inspired. Aren't there any example time schedules in the LA Brea book?

Won't you be a little tired for your classes? Did you plan to bring this loaf with you in class?










[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Hang on a second while I stop my head from spinning! Fermentation, proofing, retarding, Silverton, Sullivan, Reinhart, make it stop Mommy!

I think I have a handle on this on. If I mix the dough @ midnite, ferment the dough until five, shape the loaves and proof them until 8 and then pop them into the fridge I can take them out of the [email protected] and start baking them @5...right?

TBH, your url can't be found?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Yes, that schedule would work. But don't just assume they'll only need to proof for that hour. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. You could actually bake them at 9 am if you want to skip the retard thing. I don't know why that link won't link. The page is all frames, maybe that's why, but type it into the address bar and it should take you there.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Cutting and pasting worked for the link. Cool site, lots of good stuff. I have to be at bread class @10 tomorrow so I think I will go with the retard. This formula, as written, looks like it will produce 3-4 loaves. What happens if I leave one proofed loaf in the fridge for 24 hours? Can I let it rvrive for an hour or two and then bake as usual?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I get 2 loaves out of that, a little over 2 lb each, assuming we're using the same numbers..2 cups h20, 27 oz bread flour, 3/4oz salt, 25 or so oz of firm starter. Yes, you can hold the shaped loaf that long. Wait till you see the difference in the crust. I bake mine at home on a pizza stone at 450 and I don't bother fooling around with steam. I used to work with this big shiny double rack rotary steam injected Hobart oven and I didn't think the steam made a bit of difference. Bottom heat is what this kind of bread loves. And while you're out tomorrow, stop at Brentano's and get The Bread Builders.

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I just checked your pictures. Hang on..you're gonna have THE experience of your young bread making career. With growth like that you definitely did it right. However, you can do everything right up to the point of baking, so don't blow it now.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

There's a Barnes and Noble across the street from Peter Kump's, I promise, I'll get it 

Yes, those are the numbers in his formula. If it yields 2 loaves I figure I can just leave one in the fridge 30 mins. or so longer than the other.

I really appreciate all you guidance TBH!

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thank you so much *thebighat* for the link. It's a wonderful source of information. I was also glad to see La Brea in the list of bakeries of note!

BTW, just eliminate the <...I> after and your link will work properly.

Stay


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

Hope your classes went well.

I found a video featuring Nancy Silverton making her sourdough starter.

To view video

Click here

then type Nancy Silverton, the series is Cooking with Masterchefs

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Well, Frank seems to be an active little sucker! I will post details later on my site, but first baked Frank bread is pretty cool. I also now own a copy of the Bread Builders.

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Can't wait


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Bread baking class was OK. I learned how to follow a recipe. I heard the word gluten once. No discussion of when things were fully proofed, what to look for, how the formed dough should react when you touch it with your finger tip etc, etc. All in all pretty disapointing.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kyle, request a refund.


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

Wow. I never knew bread could be so complicated. FEED THE BEAST. Heh heh heh.

My Mom had a simpler sweeter bread that had to stick around for a week, and then we added whatever we wanted to and baked it. I think it was called Friendship Bread, because it grows enough where you split it and give part of the starter away. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Does anyone know how to start that particular recipe?

I can't wait until I move and get settled again. I'm going to learn about bread more! It sounds like good fermented fun!!

~~Shimmer~~


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

KoKoPuffs, I would except I didn't pay for the course  My girlfriend works at the school so I get a rather healthy discount. My comments were more comment than complaint. There was a young woman in my claas who knew nothing of making bread. She now has some nice recipes and will go home and create disasters. I would hate to see someone get put off bread making because of poor instructions.

Shimmer - There is a point in Peter Reinhart's starter wher you need to get rid of half of what you have created. He suggests you give it, and the instructions, to a friend! You may be on to something. World Peace through Wild Yeast!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Sorry about your boring class KyleW. Glad you learned how to read a recipe...

As if...



[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Kimmie - see my note to KoKoPuffs above


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thanks KyleW.

I edited my note accordingly!

BTW, great answer to Shimmer! I was brewing something up but yours is purrrrrrrfect!


MEOW!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

That Friendship bread has been making the rounds in my town. I made it a couple of times, but I find the directions confusing. You're supposed to feed and knead the bag, then measure out what you want to give away and use the remainder, something 1/2 cup, in the bread. Seems backwards. I used the whole bag and made 6 loaves. I also left out the pudding mix as I didn't think it belonged in there and I still got nice stuff. As for making the starter, no clue.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The polls have closed. The final results are being tallied. Here are the results from the early precincts!

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Nice color, good oven bang, how's it taste. Good for you...


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Well the final Tally has been taken.

Why do I think I want bigger, more irregular holes in the crumb?

TBH - It tastes very good. The crust is nice and chewy and the crumb is moist and tender. Sour is mild, not overpowering.

If I leave the uncut batard out overnight will it be OK in the AM?

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Let it cool, put it in a paperbag, not plastic wrap. I lust after big irregular air pockets in bread too, and I think the secret is a wet dough. a poolish starter, bottom heat. The ciabatta in Artisan Baking will do it, so will Reinhart's focaccia when shaped as a ciabatta. I just mixed a mother lode of old dough and poolish for bread I need early Wednesday. You should be a little proud of yourself.. the bread looks just right. I'd throw away half the starter now, and feed it the 4 flour 3 water ratio, let it sit till bedtime and then put in the refrig. Or just double what you have left, which probably isn't as much as I keep on hand. Did you get the Bread Builders?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I did indeed get The Bread Builders  Should I get in the habit of refreshing my starter on a "regular" basis even if I don't intend to bake in a given week? You're right, I am going to concede the starter volume contest. Given my EasyBake fridge, I need room for things to put on my bread. 

One thing I found very surprising in this first trip down Sourdough Lane was how fogiving the timing is. You cleared up a lot of panic for me last night when you said that any combination of 8 hours (ferment/proof) does the trick. I was also very suprised at how active the dough remained in the fridge. It seems to be a lot more flexible than I originally thought. Thanks again for all your help


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

If you want you can feed it once a week. There's a little sidebar in the Bread Builders about that. I let my starter at work go 5 months without feeding from oct. to march and it wakes right up. My home starter, which I haven't been using much, I feed every couple of weeks. I watched the Silverton video recommended above, and did get her book from the library. Maybe I'll give a bread a try. She uses the starter as a starter, not a sponge as Reinhart does.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: thebighat ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I just watched the video. It looks sort of like Ernest. Her timing in the video is different than in Breads From the La Brea Bakery. In the vid she appears to be finished after 6 days but in the book she doesn't start feeding the starter until day 10.

Man I have a lot of learnin' to do


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

When my friend brought me printout of some discussion there was nothing about the now called Frank & Ernest. I ask her to bring me update about the yeast discussion but she said she didn't see it. She looks at me like I was nut when I told her about the starter. I was anxious to see the results. 

Kyle it looks great, really. I love the pictures!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear Sisi,

It's so nice to hear from you. I hope you will feel better very soon and let us enjoy your posts on a regular basis.

KyleW,

Congratulations, good job on Frank's offsprings, the photographs are really beautiful. Wish I could have a slice!!

About the video, let me explain. N.S. was one of the featured chefs in "Cooking with Masterchefs" in 1993 and her starter was at that time completed in *9* days.

*Either she didn't want to scare-off people or* she had 3 more years to ponder over it and experiment and came up with the version published in her own book, La Brea.

If you use Ernest for her Rustic Bread (p. 105/La Brea), the crumb should display a lacy look and large holes. It is due to its soft batter-type dough, just like TBH said earlier.

You must be so pleased with yourself...



P.S.: I edited my post and the changes appear in bold type.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Thank you Iza & Kimmie 

I am going to chalk a lot of this first batch up to Beginner's Luck. We'll see what happens with the next dough! I start 4 days of feeding Ernest on Thursday. I should be ready to bake early next week. I am going right after the Rustic Bread on p.109.

I think the flavor of my bread is better today than it was yesterday.


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## pooh (Mar 13, 2001)

I have been following this thread and the previous ones on the subject with great interest.

Kyle, your appetite for learning never ceases to amaze. And the photos are wonderful!

 

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: pooh ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Dear KyleW,

While you're waiting for Ernest to mature and spending time at the Farmer's Market on Union Square (investigating scapes), maybe you could go down (or up, or west or east) who knows!! for a bread stop at the Bouley Bakery in the TriBeCa neighborhood to visit head baker Kerstin Kleber and her staff of four bakers. They use more than four hundred pounds of flour to make twenty-eight different kinds of bread each day. The bakery has very quickly become a fixture for New Yorkers who love good bread-and for those who wish to learn what makes good bread so good. Maybe you will have the opportunity to visit with Kerstin and learn some of the secrets behind Bouley breads, all of which are baked in a stone oven imported from Italy.

Bouley garlic bread is baked with a whole clove of garlic in each loaf, which suffuses the bread with its flavor and aroma; when you bite into the baked clove, the flavor is sweet, and the texture is soft.

The apple-raisin bread is baked with fresh Granny Smith apples and golden raisins. A sliced apple round garnishes the top of each loaf.

The pistachio-hazelnut bread is unique: It's made with a *sourdough starter prepared with yeast produced from organic currants*.

Kerstin learned to make yeast this way while she was in France learning to bake bread at Le Nôtre. _[This is were N.S. learned as well]_

The baguettes at Bouley are made with flour imported from France; they're the only baguettes in New York City that can make that claim.

The bread known as La Miche is made with whole-wheat flour and rye flour. It's one of the bakery's most popular breads, perhaps because it has a shelf life of one week.

Bouley Bakery
120 West Broadway
New York, NY 10013
212-964-2525



[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

My office is in TriBeCa. I walk by Bouley every day. Maybe I'll pop in


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Lucky you!

I think it's time for me to pay a visit to NYC.

I







New York!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Okay you urban sophisticates, what is TriBeCa. I grew up near Death Valley, you know, and learned other things...other cultures. 

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Kokopuffs,

Take a tour of TriBeCa

What dya think?

 ?

Here's a map of Manhattan If you click on Upper West Side, chances are you will get a glance at Seinfeld's fav: Tom's Restaurant!!

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

From Death Valley to Denver. I don't know if that's progress or not  (I used to live in Breckenridge) TriBeCa is an oh so trendy neighborhood in lower Manahttan. It is an acronym for Tri(angle) Be(low) Ca(nal). Canal is Canal Street, home ChinaTown to the south and Little Italy to the north. They modeled the acronym after SoHo(American Version. SoHo stands for So(uth) of Ho(uston)St.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Pretty cool Kimmie! That intersection, where the big glass subway station is, is 2 blocks from my office. Within those 2 blocks are TriBeCa Grill, Nobu, Montrachet and Chanterelle. 4 blocks from there is Bouley Bakery (Wanted to bring the thread back
 )

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: KyleW ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kyle:

I could only watch so many lizards cross the roads. Then it was time for me either to become a Raven by muching 'em down or become a traveller by moving on to other areas. I consider the move to Denver or any other metropolitan area as development rather than progress.

Kimmie:

The area looks as if it would accomodate lots of pedestrian traffic: small shops and wide sidewalks.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Kyle,

Thanks for the lesson. It just makes me want to go even more!! BTW, have you been to TriBeCa Grill and Nobu??

Koko,

There's more than 10 million souls in NYC and heavy concentration in Manhattan...much too hazardous for lizards crossing Canal St. (splat)










to bring us back to topic, don't forget to feed Ernest Thursday!



[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kimmie and Kyle:
I reedited my previous post. Sorry for the misunderstanding. 

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Me too, Koko, to include a map. See first post on page 3!


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I guess ignorance is bliss. What misunderstanding?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I'll never look at a loaf of bread the same way.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

My attention shifts to Ernest. Not much going on though. The feedings start tomorrow.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

(sigh) hope it wasn't crum_by_...









[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)




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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)




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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Yeah, really crummy.










[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Here Koko:


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

pls explain the process.

I clicked on the image at PLAUDER, then cut and pasted the UBB code into my post, separating "


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I think it's the space, Koko.

Try editing your post accordingly.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

TA DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Now I'm a new man!!!

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)




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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

KyleW,

Here's a great source:

The Bread Bakers Guild of America Online


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I need help, I’ve been reading, again, the bread section in Baking With Julia and now have a few questions. The optimum temperature for dough to rise is said to be around 80°F. It all sound good on paper but what should you do if your kitchen is hotter or colder, should you extend the rising period until the dough has double in volume? I don’t want the bread to have a yeasty odour or smell. 


Thanks!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Iza,

If it's colder, you extend. If it's warmer, the rising time will be shorter.

I made two loaves last night (6:00 P.M.) following Baking with Julia (White loaves). My first rise was done in 45 minutes instead of the usual hour. Second rise barely took 25 minutes. By 8:15 or so, it was ready for the oven. 45 minutes later, nice results, and beautiful toast this morning!

I make the whole wheat loaves very often as well.

Have you ever made bagels?



P.S.: I should have mentioned that the temp in my kitchen was around 88 degrees last night!!

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

You guys must be suffering in you 80 degree kitchen. Mine's only 70.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Kimmie,

I've use that recipe before, I'll try it again tomorrow. Did you use bread flour or all purpose?

It make sense to adjust the rising time, safer to judge the rise by the size of the dough. 

No I never made bagels, why do you ask?

Anyone know what would happen to a dough if it was left to rise for too long or not long enough and then bake?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Too much rise will cause collapse in the oven. Flat loaf. Best to allow too short a rise than too long. Too short may produce an underrisen loaf!!!


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Never heard of the 240 rule? Take temperature of the room, the temperature of the flour, add them together, subtract from 240 and the result is the temperature of the water to get an 80 degree dough. BTW, has anyone else noticed that we have picked over these three threads ad nauseam, and no one has still answered the question on how to schedule making a daily bread with a starter? Wonder if that guy lost interest while we all wandered. What I really hope is that it drove him to the bookstore.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

If you use the 240 rule does it allow for heat generated by kneading?

Kimmie - the white loaf from Baking With Julia is my fav. It is the best, most consistent whit bread I have ever made.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

hey gang, I am going to close this thread and suggest that you to open another for the next batch of beautiful breads!


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