# New to Japanese Knives, Looking for Help (Long).



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

First time poster here looking for some help with kitchen knife care and suggestions for some new Japanese western pattern knives. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I wanted to provide as much information as I could to anyone who's willing to make some recommendations. Hopefully, no one will doze off before making it to the end.

 My wife does almost all the cooking in our home and I do most of the cutting (and cleaning up). My cooking skills are minimal but I'm working on them. As I suspect is true of most people, neither of us has any training in proper knife use or sharpening. I recently decided that I want to improve my knife skills so I hit the Internet looking for information and ended up here. It's a great place with a lot of good information. After a lot of reading I've decided that, in addition to improving my knife skills, I want to upgrade our knives. Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous (expensive, actually) thing.

 We currently have a block set of Henckels Pro S knives that were a gift many years ago. I never really liked them, but they were supposed to be high quality knives so I figured it was just me. The set has an 8" chef's knife, 8" slicer, 8" bread knife, 6" utility knife, 5 1/2" boning knife, 4" paring knife and a steel. Other than the boning knife our set matches up well against BDL's home kitchen knife set recommendation.

 We don't do any fancy food prep with our knives, just basic home cooking. I use the chef's and paring knives for almost everything, with the chef's knife getting the most use. The bread knife gets only occasional use, usually on sourdough bakery loaves. I'm not sure if we've ever used the boning knife. The slicer is only used occasionally for carving turkey or a roast, although from what I've read perhaps I should be using it more often. The utility knife is used mostly when the paring knife is too small for the job. My general rule is to use the smallest appropriate knife possible. Having exposed blade edge beyond whatever is being cut seems to only increase the odds of something getting cut that shouldn't.

 I see the upgrade process as having three steps:

Learn the right way to use what I already have, and
Learn how to sharpen them properly.
Then, and only then, upgrade to better knives.
 OK, there's actually a fourth step, and that's saving for the purchase, but that's not something that anyone here can help me with.

 So for the first step, I'd like to find some good instruction on knife skills. Any suggestions? I'm assuming that, other than classroom instruction, I'll be watching Internet video or a DVD.

 Now for sharpening:

We currently have a Henckels TWINSHARP and a Spyderco Sharpmaker. The Sharpmaker was highly recommended but it really frustrates me. I can't seem to get a good edge with it. From what BDL says it takes more time than the instructions I've been following indicate. Maybe it would also work better if I started with reasonably sharp knives instead of the fairly dull ones we have. The TWINSHARP produces a marginally serviceable edge but I'm guessing that it's not really great for the blades.
I had our knives professionally sharpened but I wasn't impressed with the results so I want to learn how to do it myself.
I'm a bit lacking in fine motor skills so I'm looking for a "Knife Sharpening for the Complete Klutz" solution. I don't think freehand sharpening is my best choice. From what I've read here the decent alternatives are an Edge Pro system or a Chef's Choice electric sharpener.  Since we'll have knives with multiple bevel angles it looks like the Chef's Choice wouldn't be a good choice. After eliminating freehand and the Chef's Choice the winner by default seems to be the Edge Pro Apex.
 I have a few questions about the Edge Pro:

How long does it really take to sharpen a knife using the Edge Pro?
How long will the Edge Pro stones last?
The Apex comes in multiple versions with different stones, including the Chosera set at CKtG. If I buy the Apex which version should I get? Will it depend on which knives I choose?
Other than the actual sharpener kit, what other sharpening accessories should I get? It looks like at the minimum I should get a "steel" like the Idahone.
 Here's my current thinking on knives. Comments and corrections are welcomed and appreciated.

I don't _need_ new knives but I would _like_ to have knives that I enjoy using. The knives I end up with will probably be more knife than I _need_, as I suspect is the case with most people here.
I want knives that I can grow into and will last a long time.
The knives will be used only in our home kitchen.
My wife and I are both left-handed.
I want stainless knives.
I don't want to pay extra for faux-Damascus.
We'll keep our current knives. The chef's knife will probably see the most use as a beater knife. I also want them for visiting family members who don't know how to use the good knives properly.
My experience is that experts can get good results with just about any tools, albeit with difficulty, but a novice like me needs all the help quality tools can provide. On the other hand, I don't need, nor will I likely be able to afford, absolutely top-of-the-line knives. I doubt that I would ever be able to either tell the difference or be able to take advantage of it.
I'm leaning toward wa handles. I've never been a fan of yo handles. The ones I've used are all too squared off and uncomfortable. Although it's not nearly my top concern I also prefer the look of the wa handles. I could end up with yo handles if everything else is right, though.
From what I've read here about the pinch grip, the handle shape may not be so big an issue. Perhaps the biggest advantage of Japanese style handles is the lighter knife weight.
I have no plans to get a new boning knife since we never use the one we have.
I want a 240mm gyuto as our main knife. I'd like a bit more working edge than I get with our current 8" knife. I'll definitely need to get a bigger cutting board, though.
Speaking of cutting boards, what would be a good size to get? How about be the minimum size I should consider? End grain maple boards by Boardsmith and Boos seem to get the most recommendations. Any others I should consider?
Given our current pattern of usage I'm not sure it makes much sense to upgrade the bread knife or the slicer, although it would be nice to have a bit more length and a more comfortable handle.
If I do upgrade the bread knife I might go with the Forschner 10 1/4", or maybe I'll go crazy and get the Richmond Artifex. It has better steel and, being left-handed, a serrated bread knife with a 50/50 bevel is intriguing.
I'd like to get a nice wa-sujihiki to complement the gyuto aesthetically, but, given how little I use a slicer, getting a cheaper-but-adequate Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM, or Richmond Artifex 270mm suji might be a smart move and would save some money.
If I do end up getting a wa-sujihiki should I stay away from thinner knives like the Richmond Laser Sujihiki?
As far as a budget is concerned, I don't have a set number. I really want to focus on defining a decent quality kit that will stand the test of time and to also get some suggestions for higher quality knives, including what makes them better. Then I can make an informed price/quality trade-off. I don't have to buy everything (or anything) right now. Acquiring a new kit will take as long as it takes to save money and buy the right pieces. Of course, all other things being equal, cheaper is better.
The first knife I plan on getting is a 240mm gyuto. I will use it the most so I really want to get it right. Looking at 240mm, stainless, non-faux-Damascus wa-gyutos at CKtG I found (in order of ascending price and excluding Shun, Miyabi, etc.):

Tojiro DP ($100). VG-10 steel. Decent reviews as an entry-level gyuto.

Richmond Addict 2 ($170). CPM154 steel. Quite good reviews. Tall blade.
Richmond Ultimatum ($190). 19C27 steel. I've read complaints that it's too thick.
Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef(f) ($190). AEB-L steel. Softest steel of all those listed.
Richmond Laser ($220). AEB-L steel. Too thin for my (lack of) skill level?
Konosuke HH ($238). Exact steel unknown. Too thin?
Konosuke HH Funayuki ($255). Exact steel unknown. Too thin? What's the difference between this and the previous Kono, other than the price?
Are there any others I should consider? What do I gain as I step up the price scale?

I'm really confused about the various steels. I've read that CPM154 isn't really stainless and will rust. AEB-L and 13C26 are supposedly essentially the same and very similar to 19C27 but AEB-L is described as stainless and the CKtG Richmond Ultimatum page describes 19C27 as semi-stainless. The Konosuke HD series is also described as semi-stainless. What is semi-stainless and how does it compare to stainless? Are there different degrees of semi-stainless? My standard for stainless is our Henckels. Is the steel of any of these gyutos equivalent to that? Help!!!!

Before buying any knives I'm planning on getting the sharpener (and learn how to use it well) and a good cutting board. I'd like to get a gyuto at the same time but that's not absolutely necessary. Any other knives will be purchased after the gyuto.

Thanks for reading this far. I hope it all makes sense. I appreciate any and all suggestions.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Those are a lot of well thought out questions which go to the heart of what so many people want and need to know about moving up to really good knives.  I'm not sure if I can give your post the attention it deserves today, tomorrow (Christmas) or the day after; but... maybe.   If not, see you Thurday!

BDL


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> Those are a lot of well thought out questions which go to the heart of what so many people want and need to know about moving up to really good knives. I'm not sure if I can give your post the attention it deserves today, tomorrow (Christmas) or the day after; but... maybe. If not, see you Thurday!
> 
> BDL


BDL,

Thanks for the reply. Please have a Merry Christmas. That's much more important.


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

First, I want to make it clear that I absolutely, positively know how to spell Thurzday.  Unfortunately the road to hell is paved with good intentions, Thrusday turned into Friday, and Friday into today; "Tomorrow and tomorrow creeps ever on its petty pace."  Not to mention Turksdey. 

More later,

BDL


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

Ha! I didn't even notice the spelling (and I usually do). No worries. Holidays are like that. I'm still working on stuff that should have been done before Thanksgiving. Sheesh!
 

BTW, nice line from Macbeth. I had to look it up.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

You ask some very good questions, and I'm glad to see you offered enough info to allow for some really good advice.  I'll take a stab at a few of them.

First, the Edge Pro would serve you very well.  It generally takes between 30 minutes and an hour to do a good Japanese knife but I'm rarely in a hurry.  I can do a Wusthof where I'll use maybe 2 or 3 stones in ten or fifteen minutes.  There's a little learning curve but it's not severe.  Stones will last you a very long time if you just sharpen knives at home.  Think years.  The Sharpmaker is okay for touchups but isn't ideal for "heavy lifting" by any means.  With a bit of practice (say, maybe doing ten or twelve knives) you'll easily be able to get better-than-factory edges on anything.

Stones...that issue is at once complicated and simple!  The stock OEM stones from Edge Pro Inc. (and available from CKtG) are adequate for the purpose but not ideal.  The lowest grit OEM stones are quite poor IMOHO.  You will be lucky to do ten very dull knives before the 120 grit stone is completely gone, and it will take forever to sharpen a super dull knife like a Shun in VG-10.  The OEM 320 is pretty decent, probably the best of the lot.  One thing that is confusing to new users (heck, even old timers) is that the stones that are OEM'd for the machine are rated using a different grit scale.  Converting to the Japanese scale often referred to by water stone users, the OEM/EP 320 grit stone is roughly 1k.  The finest stone available in an OEM from EP is a 1200, roughly 5k-ish.  The stock/OEM stones are sourced from Boride.

I strongly recommend buying upgraded stones.  The most common ones are the Chocera stones from Naniwa and the Shapton stones which come in two types, the Professional series and the GlassStones.  Each of them have strengths, and each is ideal for certain steels.  I could probably write a 20,000 word dissertation on stones (I have probably 55 different synthetics and 13 Japanese natural stones, plus 9 diamond plates and more belts and strops than I can list here).  But I'll give you the Cliff Notes version:

Chocera:  These stones softer than any of the Shaptons.  You'll have to decide with experience what style you like, but I prefer soft.  This type of stone is more forgiving of minor errors in sharpening as the stone's mud and slight "give" will conform to the edge if your angle is a little off.  The Chocera stones are very fast at every grit and wear very well.  The 400 is a bit hard but the 1k is "creamy" feeling in use; it's the sharpening equivalent of cream soda!  The 1k Chocera is one of my 2 favorite synthetic stones.  The other is the 10k Chocera.  It has magical powers!  The 10k seems to have artificial intelligence; it seems to know, on it's own, just what a knife needs.  It leaves an edge that's at once slick yet grabby.  It's the closest that a synthetic stones comes to the effect you get from J-nats, IMOHO.  The Chocera stones do everything well, and some things extraordinarily well.  They have few weakness aside from price.  Some have said they're not ideal for the new breeds of "uber steel" like CPM-M4 & M390.  They work on everything I've tried but of course my experience isn't exhaustive.  Overall I consider the Choceras to the best synthetic stones.  They shine on carbon.

Shapton Pro:  These stones are a bit harder than the Choceras but also very fast.  The 320 Pro is an amazing good coarse stone and relatively soft.  The 1k is fast yet dishes slowly.  Around 5k they start to get hard enough that I don't enjoy using them but they make stones up to 30k.  And I will say the 30k is an awe-inspiring polisher, polishing up into the range you'd normally consider appropriate for optics.  Because they're hard they require a bit more precision and are less forgiving of error but they're still user friendly stones up to at least 8k.

Shapton GlassStone:  These are pretty hard and also wear well.  They are pretty easy to chip thru rough handling, though.  I've been told the GS line was designed for harder steels, and I can confirm that they work well on some of the new uber steels.  I've sharpened a couple of knives in M390 and they cut that steel with relative ease.  All in all I'm starting to really like the GS line and probably prefer it the Pro line.  I still prefer the Choceras for most work but as I get used to the GS I will keep an open mind.

The most economical way to go is probably to get a set, but if you're patient you can mix and match.  All of them play well with each other.  My picks can be broken down thusly:

Arato (coarse stone):  The Chocera 400 is a great stone, but I think I actually use the 320 Shap Pro a little more.  The 400 C wears better but the 320 SP cuts faster.  It's about a wash.  The 150 GS is very aggressive but I don't think it's available in an EP size.  For pure speed and cutting power, the undisputed king of the hill is the Atoma 140.  I don't think I'd want to sharpen without it.

Nakato (middle stone):  To me the 1k Chocera is the best synthetic out there.  The 2k Chocera is also great, and I prefer it to the 3k.  The 1k Shap Pro is excellent, and the 1k GS is even better if you're doing harder SS knives.

Shiageto (fine/polish stone):  You can probably group anything at or above 5k as a polisher.  Many people prefer to finish kitchen knives at 5k and no higher.  Me, I prefer to go higher but that's personal preference.  If you like a softer stone the 5k Chocera is about as good as it gets.  For pure cutting performance, this would be my choice.  If you want shine and appearance, the Shaptons will suite you better, but they're harder.  IMO, the single finest polishing stone (at least synthetic one) is the 10k Chocera.

There are some new stones out now at JCK that probably have a lot of potential.  You can now get Nubatama stones for EP.  I haven't tried them but everything Ken has suggested to me has been spot-on.  I'll be trying some out down the road.

For routine maintenance between full-on sharpenings I like an Idahone ceramic in conjunction with a HA Borosilicate Glass hone.  I generally use the glass to bring the knife back to shaving sharpeness; once that's insufficient I switch to the ceramic.  When that's not enough I re-sharpen.

I don't know what the word count limit is per post so I'll address knives in another post...


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

Phaedrus,

Thanks for the reply. I'm really glad you only gave the Cliff Notes version. It's going to take me a while to fully grok just that much and come up with followup questions. The one question that comes to mind immediately concerns the right stones for our Henckels. Are the standard and upgrade Edge Pro stones suitable for Henckels or should I get Edge Pro versions of India and Arkansas stones? CKtG has EP Arkansas stones but I can't find EP India stones.

I'm looking forward to your post about knives.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

With all due respect to the long tradition of Arkansas & India stones, their day has passed.  At least I would say neither is a good fit for the EP.  To do German knives the stock stones are fine, with the caveat still standing that the stock Arato sucks.  But if you want a two stone solution that will do a stellar job on German knives, just buy a 320 grit Shapton Pro stone and a 2k Naniwa "Green Brick."  That will do a great job on Henckels, Wusthof, Forschner, etc.  IMOHO there's no reason to go any higher than 2k on a knife under 59 RC or so.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I will say right off that I'm a Japanese knife nut.  Virtually all of my knives are Japanese save a few "legacy" blades and junkers that I have laying around.  The knife case I take to work every day contains 10 J-knives.  Overall Japanese knives based loosely on Western styles, like the gyuto, sujihiki and santoku (as well as American knives made in the style of Japanese ones, such as the Richmond lines) are much thinner, lighter and sharper than their European counterparts.  The trade off is that they are perhaps not quite as robust as a German blade, although the difference is often overstated.

Let me first say that the term "stainless" is a misnomer.  All steels can rust.  Typically we call a steel "stainless" if it contains 13% or higher Chromium.  Typical low end steels include 440C & AUS8.  Although the blends are proprietary, nearly all the major German brands are building some some steel that's functionally the same as 440C.  The baseline for mass market Japanese knives like Shun is VG-10 from Takefu Special Steels.  Both are pretty stain resistant, but if you toss them in a bucket of strong bleach solution for a day or two you'll get rust.  A coworker of mine lent his Tojiro DP to his uncle at Xmas as got it back 2 days later with some fine surface rust.  VG-10 is very stainless (maybe 20% Cr?) so I was surprised.  It almost had to have been from bleach.

One step removed from stainless is semi-stainless tool steels.  The HD line from Konosuke and the Kagayaki CarboNext both use excellent tool steel. IIRC so does the fabled Aritsuga A-type.  Tool steels vary from maker to maker but as a rule they don't rust easily.  They will generally patina but not terribly so.

High Carbon is a catch all for steels that have low or no Chromium or other additives to prevent corrosion.  In point of fact few "high carbon" contain more than around 1.7% carbon by weight; this is half of the carbon level present in ZDP-189, a very high end SS from Hitachi.

Steel is another things that deserves a book, not a short post, and I am neither a chemist nor a metallurgist.  In a nutshell (and greatly oversimplifying things), Cr doesn't do anything to make a knife sharper, it mainly prevents corrosion (again, an oversimplification).  As a general rule, high carbon/non-SS steels will have a finer grain structure and take a better edge.  A very good carbon like Aogami (from Hitachi) will get much much sharper than, say, 440C and hold that edge a lot longer.  Now, all carbons aren't created equal nor are all SS.  For example, ZDP-189 will get almost as sharp as White #1 or Ao-Ko.  But as a rule of thumb, you can generally say carbon will get sharper and is easier to sharpen that most SS.

Tool steels and PM steels muddy the waters somewhat.  They can offer most of the advantages of carbon & SS while without the downsides of either.  Ultimately, the heat treat is perhaps more important than the type of steel.  And the steel isn't necessarily the most important factor in choosing a knife.

"Faux-Damascus" really doesn't bring anything to the table.  Suminigashi, or "ink" (the fake dammie stuff) is just for appearance.  There is some "real" Damascus out there but it's expensive and not relevant here.  I agree that there's no reason to pay extra for it unless it's necessary to satisfy your SO.  If a knife that I want happens to be clad in faux dammie that's not a reason to disqualify it though, either.  For instance, I'd gladly take a Tanaka R2 in Ironwood. 

There are two main reasons to clad a knife.  The first is to cover a very reactive high carbon steel with stainless steel to prevent rust.  Super Aogami is often clad for this reason.  A knife so constructed will only have the HC exposed right at the very cutting edge.  The second major reason (aside from appearance) is that the "Super Steels" used for the hagane (cutting core) are often very expensive.  Cladding them cuts down on the cost.  It can also support a more brittle steel and add some flexibility.

Years ago you needed to get HC if you wanted serious performance but this is no longer the case.  There are lots of great SS knives nowadays.  I would suggest though that you could cast your net wider.  The tool steels, while only semi-SS, are generally pretty easy to maintain.  None of mine have had any issues with red rust and patina only mildly.  Also, there are some really good clad-carbon knives that are nearly as easy to maintain as full on SS.

But if you want SS, and it must be SS, then AEB-L is an excellent choice.  All the numbers and nomenclature can be confusing, but it's a good steel.  IIRC Sandvik makes families of similar SS steels that are great choices.  While the exact steel isn't the biggest factor, overall I would avoid VG-10.  It's ubiquitous and a decent steel, but can be chippy if not expertly heat treated.  Hattori is regarded as a master of HT'ing VG-10, but few of the knives bearing the name are actually HT'd by Hattori.  The HD line is produced by Ryu-sen and finished by Hattori.  Actually, a helluva lot of big Japanese brands are OEM'd by lesser known Japanese companies, but that's at least a couple chapters if not a book unto itself.

Bottom line:  Don't get hung up on what exact steel is being used and whether or not it's nominally stainless.  All steel that contains iron can be made to rust, and the difficulty in preventing rust is greatly exaggerated.

In the next post I'll address handles, types of knives and some actual brands.


----------



## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

> White #1 or Ao-Ko.


tiny correction, ao means blue. so i think you meant shiro-ko =D


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

No, I meant white or blue. I didn't mean to imply that I was saying the same thing twice./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> You ask some very good questions, and I'm glad to see you offered enough info to allow for some really good advice. I'll take a stab at a few of them.
> 
> First, the Edge Pro would serve you very well. It generally takes between 30 minutes and an hour to do a good Japanese knife but I'm rarely in a hurry. I can do a Wusthof where I'll use maybe 2 or 3 stones in ten or fifteen minutes.  There's a little learning curve but it's not severe. Stones will last you a very long time if you just sharpen knives at home. Think years. The Sharpmaker is okay for touchups but isn't ideal for "heavy lifting" by any means. With a bit of practice (say, maybe doing ten or twelve knives) you'll easily be able to get better-than-factory edges on anything.
> 
> ...


I stayed up way too late last night researching stones for the EP. Everything you say here actually makes sense now. As I said previously, thanks for the short version, although I'd love to see the dissertation some time in the future.

It sounds like the EP is a good long-term investment without a lot of ongoing expenses. That's good. I think that once I get the EP I'll retire the Sharpmaker to touch-ups on pocket knives, at most.

I definitely want to upgrade to better stones as you recommend in your followup post. Your comments on the stones square with my research. Of course, that's partly because you've made a lot of posts about sharpening stones. ;^)

I'm leaning toward the Choceras. It looks like there are two reasonable acquisition paths. One is to just get the EP Apex Chocera set and have everything ready to go as I add knives and get better at sharpening. The other is to get the EP Apex 1 with the 220 and 400 stones for use with the Henckels. Then I'd add the Choceras when I get better knives.

The Chocera set includes the 400, 1k, 3K, 5K, and 10K. The cost to buy them all of them later is a bit under $50 more than buying them in the EP Chocera set. If I didn't get the 10K stone then it would be pretty much a wash. Dropping the 3K stone would make it about $25 cheaper. Would just the 400, 1K, and 5K stones be sufficient? $25 isn't really enough to worry about, but the advantage would be spreading out the cost over time.

Regarding the honing rod, I'll probably get just the Idahone for now. It'll probably be a bit tough to convince my wife to spend over $100 on the HA, but if I can show her serious improvements with better knives and good sharpening she might go for it. She wants sharper knives as much as I do.

Now on to your steels post...


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

My comments in *bold*.


Phaedrus said:


> I will say right off that I'm a Japanese knife nut. Virtually all of my knives are Japanese save a few "legacy" blades and junkers that I have laying around. The knife case I take to work every day contains 10 J-knives. Overall Japanese knives based loosely on Western styles, like the gyuto, sujihiki and santoku (as well as American knives made in the style of Japanese ones, such as the Richmond lines) are much thinner, lighter and sharper than their European counterparts. The trade off is that they are perhaps not quite as robust as a German blade, although the difference is often overstated.
> 
> Let me first say that the term "stainless" is a misnomer. All steels can rust. Typically we call a steel "stainless" if it contains 13% or higher Chromium. Typical low end steels include 440C & AUS8. Although the blends are proprietary, nearly all the major German brands are building some some steel that's functionally the same as 440C. The baseline for mass market Japanese knives like Shun is VG-10 from Takefu Special Steels. Both are pretty stain resistant, but if you toss them in a bucket of strong bleach solution for a day or two you'll get rust. A coworker of mine lent his Tojiro DP to his uncle at Xmas as got it back 2 days later with some fine surface rust. VG-10 is very stainless (maybe 20% Cr?) so I was surprised. It almost had to have been from bleach.
> 
> ...


----------



## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

about vg10, i think that it's chippy only because of crappy heat treat. i've seen knives in vg10 aren't chippy at all. it's just the vast majority of people who have handled vg10 have handled shuns. and shuns are notoriously chippy. i have a tojiro dp that says otherwise. i've read on other forums that the hattori FH line which is in vg10 is a fantastic line of knives. i think the kind of steel is a factor, but one has to factor in the maker of the knives themselves. if they actually know how to make the most out of their materials.

when it comes to semi stainless, from what i've seen.... they WILL stain, but will not stain as bad or rust as bad. they WILL rust, IF you don't take care of them. from all my readings online on any kind of steels be it stainless or semi stainless, one should always treat and care for them the same as carbons. semi stainless will form a patina, uglier than that of carbons. they get different shades of grey instead of getting blues, yellows, purples and other such colors that carbon lovers seem to love.

=D


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, the DPs aren't at all chippy.  It really does depend on the HT.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

eboldt said:


> The Chocera set includes the 400, 1k, 3K, 5K, and 10K. The cost to buy them all of them later is a bit under $50 more than buying them in the EP Chocera set. If I didn't get the 10K stone then it would be pretty much a wash. Dropping the 3K stone would make it about $25 cheaper. Would just the 400, 1K, and 5K stones be sufficient? $25 isn't really enough to worry about, but the advantage would be spreading out the cost over time.
> 
> Regarding the honing rod, I'll probably get just the Idahone for now. It'll probably be a bit tough to convince my wife to spend over $100 on the HA, but if I can show her serious improvements with better knives and good sharpening she might go for it. She wants sharper knives as much as I do.
> 
> Now on to your steels post...


Sure, the 400, 1k and 5k will do a great job. My personal preference is to keep jumps to no more than 2X (eg if you use a 1k you follow with a 2k, the 2k followed by the 4k or 5k) but this isn't really necessary. The higher you go the less critical it is. Again, this is purely my style, not something relevant to you. I have jumped right from 1k to 6k and it works very well...it just leaves me with that feeling like left the house and left the water running.

The Idahone is really great. There's no real need for the glass, except that it exists.

I just got back from a NYE @ss beating at work so I'm gonna jump in the shower, will post about knives later tonite or tomorrow.


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

So it sounds like I could manage with just the 400, 1K, and 5K, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a more complete progression of stones. The full EP Chocera kit it is, then.

I know I said that I wanted a "Sharpening Solution for the Complete Klutz", but there's part of me that wants to try freehand sharpening before fully eliminating it as a possibility. What would be a minimal (and cheap) set of stones to use on our current Henckels as a trial of freehand sharpening?


----------



## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

400 and 1k for just a henckels.

=D

400 for bevel setting (if and when needed)

1k for the sharpening.


----------



## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi.  With the Edgepro, how do you know when you've done enough sharpening on each stone?  How easy is it to over-sharpen by mistake?  Thanks.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

You can certainly just work one side until you can feel a burr running the entire length of the blade on the side opposite the side you're working on (that is, looking down at the knife, you're working on the side facing you and the burr will appear on the other side).  That's really a bit wasteful, though.  You don't need a big honkin' burr to know it's time to switch sides.  Initially you'll probably rely on the burr but eventually you'll learn to anticipate it and switch just before you create it.  That will probably take a lot of practice to attain. 

I will very often set a bevel with the coarsest stone (typically an Atoma 140) then deburr on a belt grinder with a leather belt doped with green 0.5 mic chromium oxide paste, then move on to the next stone.


----------



## wobelix (Feb 18, 2013)

Thank you all very much for all this info !

It's a great help.

I only joined Chef's Talk today, being a wine taster and an occasional caterer. Being self taught, I am holding my knives in a rather silly way, it seems, since it doesn't stop to amaze my colleagues.

With Sabatiers (25 years) and Globals (8 years) life was okay, but before the crisis blows all the wind out of me, I want to get me some Japanese knives.

Which will mean finally learn to hold a knife properly (I lay my pointy finger over the top of the blade...)

AND

learn how to use sharpening stones.

I always start any job with putting the knife to the honing steel. Always. Works fine. Send out my knives only once ever to a professional sharpener in all those years, and wasn't too pleased when they got back.

But the honing steel will be out of the question now...

I am going to take some courses, for how ever long it will take, to learn to use stones, and maybe learn how to properly hold a knife, too...

I have ordered this Nakiri:

Sakai Takayuki Sugihara Damascus Nakiri - 6.3"

It will come to Amsterdam shortly. I do hope it is not a faux-Damascus...

(Sounds so silly to waist your time on that as a knife maker.)

Besides that, I am keen to get me the Yoshikane Damascus SLD Sujihiki AND Gyuto.

One by one that is, have to go slow somewhat.

Thanks for all the great input !

Eric


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, it's "faux Damascus," but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a snide term -- which I plead guilty to propagating but not originating -- for describing a particular kind of construction and ornamentation. That is,_ san mai_ (three layer laminate) with a stainless _hagane_ and stainless/stainless pattern welded _jigane_. Faux Damascus stands in opposition to traditional Damascus blades where steels with different levels of strength/toughness are folded and pattern welded together so that the blade marries the best properties of each of the steels; another name for the technique is _wootz_.

Yoshikane SLDs are the same Damascus construction as your Takayuki nakiri.

Your new knife uses two traditional Japanese patterns. The hammered effect is called _tsuchime. _The wavy lines running parallel to the edge are called something in Japanese which translates as "wood grain." As you can probably guess, I've forgotten the Japanese term and am too lazy to look it up. It's not _suminagashi_, which a lot of western knife guys use to as a generic term to describe Japanese pattern welded knife patters. _Suminagashi_ translates as "ink on water," and has at least some whorl effect -- as you'd expect from the name.

Some people -- knife merchants, mostly -- will tell you that the tsuchime pattern has non-stick properties. If that's true, they're extremely subtle, as in too subtle to make a difference. There are other myths extolling the virtues of pattern welding, but in this type of knife it might as well be a plain sheet of stainless and doesn't serve any purpose other than decoration.

At a nominal Rockwell C hardness of 60, you should be able to steel it as long as your steel isn't too coarse and as long as you don't use too much pressure. You may want to take a look at _Steeling Away_ for some tips on steeling.

I have no hands-on experience whatsoever with the Sakai Takayuki series you bought, don't even know it by reputation, and can't tell you whether or not it's a good knife or not. I don't like san-mai, I don't like heavily ornamented knives, I don't like nakiris, and my views of each of those things are so jaundiced I probably couldn't give an objective opinion anyway. What I can say is that, while it looks beautiful, it seems _incredibly_ expensive for 17 layer VG-10; and that I am left wondering what it does better than -- say -- a $150 Hattori HD nakiri.





  








Img82.jpg




__
boar_d_laze


__
Feb 18, 2013








Or, cosmetics aside, a $69 Tojiro DP.

Regarding your grip, you may want to read _Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch_.

BDL


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Wobelix said:


> Thank you all very much for all this info !
> 
> It's a great help.
> 
> ...


I hope you didn't pay U$D 400 (USA dollars) for such knife.


----------



## diegoschmerber (Feb 12, 2013)

I just clicked the link for BDL's steeling primer: a good read.  Hoping to see some of this good advice in action I searched videos for "how to steel a knife."  The first one that popped up was Gordon Ramsey taking a stab at it.  My face hurts from cringing the whole time.  Should have been called "how to aggressively strop with a steel."  Where does this 45 degree myth come from anyway?


----------



## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

ordo said:


> I hope you didn't pay U$D 400 (USA dollars) for such knife.


+ 1. I was thinking the same thing. I just got the Sakai Takayuki nakiri that is almost exactly the same, for christmas. Here it is...http://www.chuboknives.com/products/sakai-takayuki-17-layer-damascus-nakiri-160mm-6-3#.USLswx11_Jo . Only, I bought it at CKtG for $111 shipped! http://www.chefknivestogo.com/satahadana16.html

It's been a great knife. It's become my "line knife" when things get busy at work. It holds an edge like crazy too. But, sorry to say... As far as I can tell, the differences between the Sugihara version and the regular 3 rivet knife is... it's handmade (by a guy named sugihara), _slightly_ thinner, the handle is made with desert ironwood instead of mahogany (I think my mahogany handle is perfect as-is, f-ing beautiful!), and the unique rivet job. That's it! I can't see paying almost 4 times as much for the Sugihara version over the 3 rivet version... Sorry to you and Sugihara-san!


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Ooops, I kind of lost track of this thread! I meant to reply with a bit more; that will have to wait a bit longer. Tonite I have a Miyabi MC 210mm to repair and sharpen for a new coworker./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


----------



## wobelix (Feb 18, 2013)

Thank you very much for the information !

Very helpful.

I have bookmarked Cook Food Good and relish all the help.

Thanks a million !

About the knife:

yes... it is expensive, but beautiful.

It has not yet arrived in Amsterdam...

A trades woman of kitchen utensils who I am in contact with, met the high executive and the master sharpener of Global at a Fair in Frankfurt.

She asked them for me if the electric sharpeners of Global are alright for Sakai Takayuki's.

Of course it is not, but they were very outspoken about the knives: one of the most impressive Japanese knife makers, according to them.

So, I guess I simply wait another week and then am going to be very happy with the knife.

Since I have to learn to use a knife all over again any way, I am at the verge of buying me a Takeda Kiritsuke, too.

Might as well learn to hold Japanese knives properly, too...

The American seller gave me the advice to get two Shapton Glass stones with that, since they seem to work very well with the Takeda.

A 1k and a 4k.

Beside that I would like to get me at least three other stones and a strop.

Any suggestions which three stones to get first ?

I am going to get a course in stone sharpening and then practise like crazy.

First of all on my old and loyal Sabatiers, and then hopefully a lot on the knives of my neighbours and my colleagues, /img/vbsmilies/smilies/talker.gif.

One last crazy notion:

I have noticed, and a few of my colleagues confirmed it, that a steel does a better job when it gets older. But that is of course because it gets a smoother surface, so we should have gotten ourselves finer steels to begin with ?

Again, thank you very much for the great help !

Many greetings from Amsterdam,

Eric


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_*Sakai Takayuki:*_

As an economic activity, Japanese knife making is very complicated.

Sakai Takayuki isn't a knife maker, exactly. It's a wholesaler who buys, re-brands, and sells knives by OEM makers. Some of the knives are made exclusively for Sakai Takayuki, some are not. Some are sold with the maker's name included with Sakai Takayuki, some are not.

In the case of your Sakai Takayuki Sugihara, I'm not sure how much of the knife was actually made at the Sugihara shop; how much was made by other makers (the beautiful handle, for instance); whether or not Sugihara Keido had any hands on contact with your particular knife; etc. It's quite likely that the pattern welding and san-mai lamination was done by the Takefu Steel Co., at their foundry. I don't know that for sure, but nearly all VG-10, pattern welded san-mai is made by
Takefu and delivered as blanks or in sheets. If nothing else, you might be getting some sense of how complicated the relationships are.

Some Sakai Takayuki knives are very value oriented, yours has a lot of aesthetic and "famous maker" cachet and is priced accordingly.

_*Shapton Glass Stones and Other Water Stones:*_

If you live in a climate with large variations in temperature and humidity, AND sharpen in an unheated shed, Shapton GS (glass stones) might be the stone of choice, but otherwise they're just okay as modern stones go. They were "flavor of the month" a few years ago and still carry some of that popularity; but are far from perfect. I wouldn't rate them as the best for value (bang for the buck, explosiveness for the Euro), or the best in absolute terms.

If you're buying form the US, want the best, and can afford it, I think a three stone set made up of the Gesshin 400, 2K and 8K is as good and complete a set as money can buy. If you want to buy from Europe, I think a three or four stone set made up of Chosera stones is probably tops; possibly starting with the 1K, 3K and 10K, but there are all sorts of possible permutations and what's best for you depends on what you want to do.

FWIW, my own waterstone kit is: Beston 500; Bester 1200; Chosera 3K and Gesshin 8K; and I highly recommend all of those stones. The Chosera and Gesshin are expensive, but otherwise "no compromise." The Beston and Bester both require long soaking before they really start to work (so no spur of the moment sharpening), and both are hard enough as to interfere with feedback.

Again, we're getting into some complicated areas with lots of considerations and you may want to take the time to ask a lot of questions before firing up your credit card. You might want to talk to to whomever you chose as your sharpening teacher before purchasing.

_*Sharpening Steels:*_

Yes. You're completely right. FWIW, I almost always recommend ceramic rods for people who are looking for an appropriate hone -- but (a) you're not asking; (b) probably don't need a new hone; and (c) I use an old worn-down Henckels plus a HandAmerican borosilicate glass rod myself.

_*Sabatiers:*_

I love carbon Sabs too, and have quite a few.

BDL


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Personally I think the GlassStones are really good for the newer breeds of modern "super steel".  That's about all I use them for.  Nearly all Shapton stones are on the harder end of the spectrum, and I very much prefer softer stones.  You may lose a tiny bit of precision vs. using the harder stones but the extra feel and feedback make up for it IMOHO.


----------



## eboldt (Dec 11, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> Ooops, I kind of lost track of this thread! I meant to reply with a bit more; that will have to wait a bit longer. Tonite I have a Miyabi MC 210mm to repair and sharpen for a new coworker./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


You're not the only one. Soon after my last post I got swamped with work and I'm just coming up for air now. I'd still really like to see your (and anyone else's) further thoughts on my original and followup questions. I'm headed back to the salt mines for a while more, but I'll try to make some time to check in more frequently. Heigh-Ho, etc.!


----------



## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It seemed to me from the beginning that you're very interested in what makes one knife different and possibly better than another, and that the best way for you to move forward with your knife choices was to learn something more about knives in general, and the respective knife skills and sharpening skills learning curves so you could make an informed decision -- as opposed to me or anyone else throwing a bunch of brands and knife styles at you -- no matter how good those brands and models are.

For a fairly complete set you need a minimum of four knives: Chef's/gyuto; slicer/suji; petty; and bread. You can always have more knives, and without serious overlap either. For instance, the petty is a knife which combines the functions of a paring knife, a mid-length utility knife, and a stiff boning knife. And, you don't have to buy everything at one because you can hold off on the suji/slicer for awhile if you don't do a lot of your own portioning.

The knife you'll probably use most often is the chef's/gyuto. Among other things, that implies that you should spend a higher portion of whatever budget you have just for knives (as opposed for a total budget which includes a board and sharpening gear) than either the bread knife or the petty. But, on the other hand, just as with gyutos, if you do use a suji, a very good suji is very much better than a merely good suji.

Japanese knife makers started (or maybe just renewed) a trend in the west towards thinner, lighter, more agile and sharper knifes. The difference that makes is most apparent with the chef's. While sharpness almost always trumps weight and power there's a practical limit (for most people) to how far you can push a very thin knife into performing heavy duty tasks. So, an extremely important consideration is when you (as in "you, specifically") want to make the transition from your anorexic but agile chef's knives to something heavier.

Adding a little nuance, let's say that the transition is going to fall somewhere short of splitting chickens even for _relatively_ stout chef's knives. While there are knives which can handle that kind of abuse (chef de chefs, lobster crackers, etc.) they're too heavy to be comfortable for most people for ordinary prepping.

If you want something very thin and light as your "go-to gyuto," I'll give you one set of recommendations; if you want something which really can do it all -- damn near -- I'll make another; and if you want something in the middle, than still another.

Anyway, you get the idea.

BDL

PS. Since you live in SoCal, it would be in your best ineterests to make some time to drive up to Los Angeles (Venice, actually), visit Japanese Knife Imports and meet with Jon Broida. He can help you better with most of your questions than just about anyone else, and he carries several knives in your price range which should suit you well.


----------



## davezatyowa (Feb 23, 2013)

[Edit: deleted.... duplicate post.]


----------



## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

+12 for everything BDL just said.

There is such a thing as a "do-everything" knife, but it's about as good for complicated and intricate custom work as you'd expect from a good handyman. You want a true jack-of-all trades, you'll get solid but not efficient or elegant. You want perfection, you're going to have to sacrifice some areas of specialization. I don't know of any way around that, and it appears BDL doesn't either, so we're probably more or less right. (That's the theory anyway -- a theory BDL and I hold to, oddly enough! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif)

I personally think that the best bet for someone just getting interested is to focus exclusively on the anchor-knife, the one that does most of the work. That's going to be your chef's knife. When that knife isn't sufficient or precise enough for something in particular, it's time to revisit. What's missing? What's a good replacement? But these are questions for down the line. For the moment, I'd say a great chef's knife / gyuto will get you rolling. Learn to sharpen it, find good inexpensive stones to do so, and you're all set.

And we'll see you back soon, panting after esoterica. It just seems to come with the territory.

(Full disclosure: I have recently been lusting after either a big kiritsuke or a super-great usuba. I can't justify this at all, having not the slightest need by any measure, and at the moment, if I do anything about it, my wife will kill me. Still.... Maybe I can swing a great natural 2k stone? Hmmm........)


----------



## davezatyowa (Feb 23, 2013)

This has been a good thread, with some great observations and suggestions. I'm new here and don't claim any special expertise, but I have recently gone through a similar process... so take these suggestions for what they're worth:

I'd suggest going ahead and making the leap to a thin-bladed 'laser' gyuto. You already have a decent-quality heavy bladed chef knife with your Henckels. Once you get it sharp you can continue to use the Henckel on anything that might be problematic for a 'laser'.

I suggest this course after having gone through a similar transition myself during this past year... having used heavy-bladed German-style knives before. Like you, I read and researched and lurked the various knife boards. I bought some new knives... an Artifex... a Fujiwara. I loved them all, but the Henckels and Wusthofs chefs knives I had still seemed (when sharp) to be in the same _general_ ballpark as the newer knives, although there _were_ some noticeable improvements with lightness, edge retention, etc. Then I made the jump to a 'laser'... in my case, a 240mm Konosuke HH Wa Gyuto. Now _*that *_was *a truly notable improvement* in overall handling and cutting ability! I suspect you'd find the same thing. [My own decision to try a laser was influenced to a considerable extent by posts BDL had made about his experiences with laser gyutos, and Konosuke in particular (a 270mm HD I believe). Thanks BDL!] And just in case the thin blade had some drawbacks, I still had a nice 10" Wusthof to fall back on for the occasional heavy-duty task. It turns out that the Wusthof gets little use now.

It seems unlikely that any of the other knives you're thinking about, suji, petty, etc will have quite the impact that a new laser gyuto will have. Because they don't get used nearly as much, changing them won't rock your world to nearly the same degree. In fact for me, as far as smaller knives go, I'm still perfectly happy with the 3.5" Wusthof paring knife for when small cuts are called for.

[*Caveats:* I'm a newb here, with no track record and thus no real credibility. But given your interest in a change to Japanese knives, I think you might as well dive in and go for something that is_ truly different _from what you've used before... the big kahuna... a 'laser' wa gyuto. As an aside, I'm curious... have there been many cases in which someone has regretted purchasing a good laser? I don't recall reading of any... or perhaps folks just don't publicize their regrets]


----------



## wobelix (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks BDL, Chris, Dave and all the others !

Sound advice, just a tad too late for me, since not a Gyuoto but both a Nakiri and a Kiritsuke are coming to Amsterdam as my first Japanese knives.

And there will be a truck load of stones and accessories too. (Bunched the advice of BDL and Mark Richmond together, so I can feel the difference in stones and how to work with them.)

I have a seminar planned on March for stone sharpening, and will keep on looking at the films on You Tube about it.

There are 30+ knives in the house I can practise on before getting to the Japanese knives, and a bunch of friends and colleagues already promised that I am allowed to sharpen their knives as soon as my 30 knives are nicely sharpened.

Which means I got some 250+ knives to work on before ever touching my Japanese knives.

I am so looking forward to this !

The stuff should be rolling in during the coming week.

Thank you all for the great help, and I'll keep a keen eye out on all you say and write !

Many greetings from snow swepped Amsterdam,

Eric


----------



## davezatyowa (Feb 23, 2013)

I hope you'll post an update telling us how you like the Kiritsuke.  While they are considered gyutos,  the kiritsuke blade profile is not something that I have had any experience with, so I'll be curious how you like it.  It's flatter edge profile ought to work well for push cutting,  perhaps draw cuts,  and the "guillotine and glide" technique that BDL has written about.  It'll certainly be different from the traditional German-style Henckels, etc.


----------



## wobelix (Feb 18, 2013)

I will !!

Hopefully I can make some sense (as I confessed before, I am self taught so I hold my knives in a rather ridiculous way..).

After the waterstone sharpening seminar, fairly quickly I will get me one on how to hold a knife.

With purple cheeks of shame I sign of with a glass of white Alsace wine in that 'terrible' hand,

many greetings from icy Amsterdam,

Eric


----------

