# So, You're Thinking of Culinary School



## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

I have been in and out of the catering and restaurant business for 45 years. I have done well, both in the kitchen and in the accountant's office. I've been retired for seven years and only on the rarest occasion will I step back into the kitchen. I have trained hundreds of cooks/chefs during the past four+ decades. Many came to me from highly rated culinary schools; many from community vo-techs. It made no difference!! Once, in the commercial kitchen, they became novices...often novices that had acquired useless skills and pseudo-talents at their schools of choice. 

Remember this one fact from this post: With rare exception, every culinary school exists only to make a profit. You will pass your classes and get your pats on the back as long as your tuition is paid. PERIOD! Yes, if you are a total novice in the kitchen, you learn some of the rudiments...but, if you are that novice, you have absolutely no business attending a culinary school of any kind, private or public.

Commercial cooking (call it being a chef, if it makes you happy) is hard labor melded to both art and science. Great chefs, like all great artists, are born to it. They hone their art, but they are born with the mental and physical instruments. If you are of the age to consider a culinary career, and you're not already an outstanding cook, reconsider your career of choice. A culinary school will not make you an artist. Boys and girls, I'm sorry...it simply ain't gonna happen.

I've been reading posts at cheftalk from some prospective students that are so poorly written that I question whether the individual is sufficiently literate to read and follow a recipe accurately, let alone function as anything more than a prep cook. Before you consider a culinary career, be absolutely sure that your academics are in order. Every great chef I've known has been incredibly well read and a student of the world. Their food is an expression of their life experience.

Okay, here's the abbreviated version: Before you spend 5 cents at any culinary school; before you listen to their "admissions counselor's" sales pitch, get a job in a restaurant doing anything. Work a minimum of 50 hours a week during the restaurant's busiest hours. Volunteer to assist in all areas of the restaurant. Do this for two solid years. If you've moved up to line cook by this time, ask yourself how you can best advance yourself. If the answer is culinary school, then explore options.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

I agree with you, anyone looking to become a "chef" needs to have that inner passion for the labor of it. 

The thurst for knowledge needed is never quenched and the day you think you know it all, is the day you know the least.

Culinary Schools do work on a profit basis as do all schools, so choose wisely and don't expect to have the ability giving to you on a platter.

When I was working in NYC the year between freshman and shophmore year I had the honor of working with Michel Keller, he asked me what my hobbies, intrests were and I said "Pastry!" 
It was at that point, by the look in his eyes, I realized there is so much more to life and I had better find out what it was if I were to stay in the business.

People, read, write, ski, dance, travel, eat, build doll houses if you must, but live outside the kitchen to succeed within it.

And, for the love of pete, take english, history, math, science, spanish, business and an education class as well. Trust me, they will enrich your life and help you in your craft.:bounce:

thanks!


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## newbiechef (Dec 12, 2006)

ok, you guys have got me a bit worried now... i have been currently tossing the idea around of becoming a professional chef and opening a restaurant (or go somewhere in the wide world of food, i will figure that out at some point) now my current plans were to go get a bachelors in something... and an associates degree in either baking and pastry, or culinary... maybe even both! now before i get too much in the way of interrogations from everybody, i DO have a love for food and cooking and baking, i think i am a pretty good cook (not a chef without training right?), i can definitely cook better and have developed many skills that i think most people my age have never even heard of. i also have a need to understand how cooking and baking work, like why carmalized things taste better, or how yeast works... and so on, also i got much more interests besides cooking, and im a great multi-tasker!

ok, so my real questions, i am considering transferring to Johnson & wales to get an associates degree in cooking or baking, and a 4 year degree in something else... is an associates degree enough to get a job at a reputable restaurant? or even open one up possibly? and does the school reputation make a difference? i am also attempting to get work at some food related place and am going to take summer cooking or baking classes


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

J&W has the resources to give you a great education, culinary, business.... If you have the talent and passion, you can do really well. 
Take full advantage of everything the school has to offer.
PM me if you have any questions.:smiles:


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

Did you really read my post? I thought it was pretty clear. Not to dip into the political woes of the U.S., but go into the kitchen of any major restaurant in any metropolitan American city and listen to the languages spoken. Do you need an associate's degree??? No...you do not need an associates degree. You need talent and the desire to work and learn. Before you even think about training as a chef, spend at least a year in a commercial kitchen. To open a restaurant you need no formal education, training, or talent. You do need money, lots of it, and the willful understanding that most new restaurants fail, even if they are well financed and run by experienced people with great desire and skill. You need to plan for the next 30 days. Think about opening a restaurant when you have the financing, management skills, and understanding of how every aspect of a restaurant business runs.

It may get you one week's pay, then your attitude and skill will determine everything.


Attempting? In my world, that smacks of filling out an application or two. If you want to work in food service...restaurant, catering, institutional, etc., just do it!


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## newbiechef (Dec 12, 2006)

rsteve, i did in fact read your post and it was rather helpful... very truthful. when i asked if an associates degree was enough, i meant in reputation... but your point on education has been fairly clear. as for who is working in professional kitchens? i hope i am not alone in thinking that it is nto right for most of those people to be working in a professional kitchen... it seems to me that they just pulled these people from out back hovering around the garbage, threw a coat on them and handed them a spatula... that does not seem "gourmet" in the least. what ever happened to the days of food being prepared by a trained individual, not some rift raft that calls themselves a chef?


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I think you need to get a job in a kitchen, along with an attitude adjustment, a humility check, and a dose of reality. 
I notice that you call yourself newbiechef. What qualifies you to call yourself chef as opposed to the "rift raft" that currently works in most professional kitchens? 
"that does not seem "gourmet" in the least" What constitutes gourmet to you? Gourmet is achieved through hard work, not by a by a pedigree or the idle rich.
As to the days of food being prepared by trained individuals, the "rift raft" get real life training every day of their working lives. The level of training being dependant upon the expertise of their chef.
Give me hard working riffraff anyday. They recognize work for what it is.


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## kraftymomkai (Apr 21, 2007)

well....whether or not it's worth it...i'm enjoying it. I'm at the top of my class right now, and still don't know if I can make it. Yes it is hard work, and if I weren't willing, and able, to do it, I wouldn't be there. I am learning alot. I have never worked in a commercial kitchen....but it can't be any harder than dealing with 4 kids and a mentally ill husband full time. If I can do that for 20 years...I can work in a kitchen. LOL....anyway...I'm sorry that you feel that culinary school is a waist. It's good for me at the moment. And even if it only gets me in the door in a resturant...that's all I want. I will do the rest. Have a nice day. Kristen


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

But are you focusing on career training or enjoyment? "whether or not it's worth it."

Pay your tuition and you may stay there. If you *don't know* if you can make it, what the heck are you doing there.

Wait a minute!!! Cooking school is hard work, HUH? kraftymom. it's isn't the work world. The owner isn't going to rush into the kitchen screaming for you to get the he** out his restaurant 'cause you prepared a lousy meal for a good customer.

Before you made your first tuition payment or sat in your first class, you should have spent at least one year in a commercial kitchen...period. What do you do after spending $40K on "chef" school and discover that a commercial kitchen is simply too hot and you can't physically bear the heat rash?

Apples and oranges. I'm quite certain that your family situation was a challenge, but dealing with it successfully, does in no way prepare you for any specific career. It means you handled a very specific situation; that's it. Both of my parents died before I was out of my teens. Should that have prepared me to be a brain surgeon? Of course not.

Did I write that? I wrote that before you commit to spending a bundle of money; often borrowed money on any culinary training, you spend at least a year in a commercial kitchen to really see what goes on. The food industry has been grossly romanticized by PBS, Food Network, and the Travel Channel. It's hard physical labor and exhausting hours. You need to be an artist, scientist, tactician, psychologist, and perpetual student to ever become a chef with a following. And Kristen...I don't think it's a waste of time or energy or effort for the right person at the right time in their career.

As in what? Recreation, therapy, diversion.......?

Kristen, you can get in the door by walking in, talking to the owner, telling him you'll wash dishes, swamp the floor, do the most mundane prep and work for peanuts, 'cause you view the experience as OJT. You know what....that's what you'll probably be doing after you finish your training.

Two phrases that I never permitted in any establishment I ran/owned:
"Have a nice day." Is there a more trite, insincere expression in the English language. I asked staff to be sincere and show real appreciation, "I hope you enjoyed your meal. Please come again." or "Thank you."

If any waitstaff brought a meal to a customer, then smiled and said, "Enjoy," they may as well have walked right out the back door. How about, "I hope you enjoy what we've prepared. If there's anything else I can get you, I'm happy to do so.

Kristen, I truly appreciate your taking the time to respond. Thank you.


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## newbiechef (Dec 12, 2006)

first of all, i am sorry if my last post was somewhat offensive. it was not my intention to insult chefs. i do not doubt the majority of chefs are very hard working, or very skilled. to me, it seems that some chefs are doing the job they do merely because it pays the bills, not because of food, and i dont know if i am right, but i think to be great, it needs to be about the food, not the money. and is getting a job in the kitchen really as simple as picking up a whisk and walking in the door? because i was taught that employers care more about what you look like on paper rather than your actual skill, i dont know about the cooking world, but theyve said that about everything else. oh, before i go, nothing qualifies me to call myself "newbiechef" its just a name... i modified it from another name on another forum, newbiesailor... and it sounds better than newbiecook... false advertisement i guess... oh, and kraftymomkai, thankyou for your insight about culinary school, it makes me think again that it may actually be a good idea.


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

Well,it's going to have to be about the food,because the money isn't always there.Don't fool yourself that you'll waltz into a sweet paying gig as soon as you graduate.It takes years to work up to a level where you are capable of holding the title of Chef.You'll work many years as an hourly employee and mostly for under $12.Insurance and overtime aren't always there;business slows at certain times of year and the hours just aren't there.

And when it comes to cooking,your skills are what will get you the job FIRST,because you can embellish all you want on a resume,but you have to SHOW what you can do.Your GPA from culinary school means nothing to a chef;they know that school isn't "real world" experience.
An interveiw in this industry is a mystery basket: chef gives you a protein,some veggies and you have an hour or so to make a meal to impress.Or you work a few shifts for free to prove you can do it [a stage].


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

Who is this "they" you're writing about? In the culinary world all that really counts is your ability to produce quality and often innovative menu items that cause the cash register to ring repeatedly. What you look like on paper is absolutely meaningless after your first day on the job and often before that, as well. 

It's pretty clear your mind is made up about what you want to do, because you're only listening to yourself. 

My advice: Get a four year degree before you even think about culinary school. Work part time and summers in a food service facility. And, please, take some classes in English composition.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

Gotta pour a little water on this flame war...

As a former culinary student, I can agree with what has been said about working so many years under $12/hr for experience. It is the current stage that I'm at, I could take a $15+/hr job at a chain restaurant, but I really want to work under a knowledgeable chef learning new things.

The interesting thing about cooking is that you really dont need any type of degree to succeed, just a great passion and a dedication of equal amount. It's nice to have an AAS and some basic skills to go with it, but not necessary. Some of the best chefs have worked their way from the dishwasher up to the EC, without any formal culinary school training.

The schools will overhype their importance, and may even state a random salary of $40,000 (which I dont know where they got that from) when you graduate. Too many kids (and I stress the word "kids") have an interest (but not a passion) for this industry, so they are lured into culinary school. If they survive the externship, they have a glimpse now that cooking is not as glorified or as lucrative as they originally thought, so they either quit or get off doing the bare minimal, which makes us, as a whole, look bad. If I work my ***** off to put out quality dishes on my shifts, then on my off days I hear that the other cook is making an inferior quality product, it really annoys me. The guests should get great food all the time, not just on certain days of the week.

Thats just how I see it...


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## newbiechef (Dec 12, 2006)

RAS1187, for some reason, i dont know... but what you said has made the most sense to me. thankyou. couple questions though, do you think your cooking degree helped you get a job, or will basic skills and some eagerness and determination be enough? also, what were your skills like before and after you went to school? thanks.


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

newbiechef,

Not to horn in on RAS,but just another person's opinion:
chefs can go 50/50 on school.I went after 18 years in a kitchen because I wanted a degree in what I did best.Yes,I knew most of the curriculum,but I did learn things [pastry and baking,for example] that in my normal day-to-day routines that I would have never been exposed to.

School gives you the basic building blocks of a culinary education [and psychology,Spanish, French,Culinary Math, business courses,all of which are very important in this industry].If you have no previous experience,it is a faster way to learn what it may take years of working under people to learn.Best way I can describe it is that you will learn 50 more things for every one you learn in school simply by being on the job.

But what it boils down to is do you have the drive and "gift" to do this? Yes,things can be learned,but do you have a natural affinity to do it? A lot of chefs have posted that we are born to do this..like some people are great at math.

I know the B.S. "Honor's Students" with 100% on all tests,but cooking-wise,they had no business in a professional kitchen.They had no "kitchen sense".It's easy to memorize and regurgiate information,but can you PERFORM.

Just keep in mind the statistic of less than 10% of grads will still be in the industry 5 years after graduation...it's a HARD way to make a living,but we do it because we can't see ourselves doing anything but.
Everyone has a different experience and there is not set formula for success and everyone has a different idea of "success".This is a VERY competitive business based on performance...sometimes you get rewarded or are in the right place at the right time,and a lot of times you can bust your butt and not get any recognition or reward for your efforts.
It's just the way it goes.

Will a degree make a difference in getting a job? As stated,it just shows you know the BASICS.Yes,it may open a door,but only a crack in some cases.A degree with little or no experience will still get you a basic pantry/prep cook position where you will work your way up.


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

AtlTournant: Very well spoken comments, obviously made with significant experience. Thank-you. Steve


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

I appreciate the compliment!

Have a great holiday weekend.


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## newbiechef (Dec 12, 2006)

well, thanks a bunch for all the expertise information and sharing the experiences you all have had. i think i have decided to wait AT LEAST a semester and work in a real kitchen or a bakery... even if it is only a position like dishwashing or some other task i may not wish to be doing. i will wait at least a semester before deciding on culinary school. thanks again everyone.


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

Newbie, you are making a very wise decision! Let your employer know that you really want to learn and, hopefully, you'll get a real taste of the career. You may decide that this is to be your life's work, or that it's a ladder with a climb you're not prepared to make. But, you'll get to see the culinary world from the inside.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Ditto what RSteve said! Even if you get a job washing dishes, as long as you show an interest in learning, dishes will not be the only thing you do. Show aptitude and your stay in the dishroom will be a short one, plus you will be getting a taste of the day to day life of those in professional kitchens. A semester, or two, a year, or two, culinary school will still be there if that is what you want to do. I started in the dishroom as a break from college until I figured out what I wanted to change my major to, ten years later and working as a sous chef it dawned on me that I had found my life's work and decided to go to culinary school. Good luck and let us know how it works out.


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## viktorvaughn (May 30, 2007)

I have always wanted to work within restaurants. Washing disshes is always the easiest in and the hardest (perhaps tedious) way of getting a foot in the door. I never made it behind the line because frankly it doesn't pay s#it. But as a server I have done a lot of prep and been held to the whim of the kitchen when we were all in the weeds. I don't think that any of the chefs I have worked for were formally educated in the culinary arts, and they are all at the top of their craft. I guess my point is kitchen work is some of the hardest work with the least rewards that there is. I suggest rreading down and out in Paris and London by George Orwell and Kitchen confidential by Anthony Bourdain. Chef Bourdain will be the first to acknowledge that 85% of kitchen workers ( those that are willing to do the work required for the peanuts offered) are the "riff raff" previously mentioned in this thread. It is no cake walk in the restaurant industry and I think the individuals chance of achieving greatness are better if they would try to write a best selling novel. That said, if it is your passion, don't waste any time and find a chef who can tolerate you for your first 3-5 years of kitchen ineptitude. 
Just my opinions on my observations.
Best of luck,
Viktor


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## chefa (May 15, 2007)

Hello there:
I am concidering enrolling in a cooking school after i spent i month in a commercial kitchen and i moved up a from prep cook to a line cook in a find dining restaurant. I do have skills and passion for this industry.

Now, i am extremly confused because i cant decide which cooking school i should go to. I just moved to Chicago and i am thinking between CHIC (cooking and hospitality institute of chicago) and between Kendall College.

I actually made a choice and went with CHIC as they are offering the LCB program (Le Cordon Bleu) but i was not happy with the quality of the students i saw over there. Horrible. Only 5% of my class are intellegent students and the rest are so **** confused. Also we have 35 students in our first class and i think that is too many per 1 teacher.

I am ready to switch to Kendall, do you recommend it over CHIC? i need any possible details you can provide me with and i greatly apreciate it.

PS: please know that i have a bachelor degree in management information systems and almost done with my master in hospitality management.

many thanks


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

*edited* I gave you my perspective in the other thread you started, please refer there.

Pretty much, there are always going to be slackers in this industry, not much can be done about that.


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## chefa (May 15, 2007)

Thank you for your reply. 

I already have my BA in MIS and almost done with my master. My question is , if you are in my position which way you go.... CHIC or Kendall... taking in concideration that i am working as a line cook now for 40 hours a week... my ultimate goal is to become an executive chef in a great hotel or restaurant... would CHIC on my resume gets me that position (ofcourse with some years of experience) or am i better off with Kendall ? i have heard some bad news about CHIC so far but i also met with some brilliant students there.... it is sooooooo confusing.... please help with any idea...

Thank


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I honestly think that the school wont really give you much leverage, either way.

I have not had a chance to evaluate Kendall's culinary program, but from just quick spectating I would have to say it appears to be more solidly built then CHIC.


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## chefa (May 15, 2007)

thank you for the advise. when i visited Kendall, i saw some more serious students for sure and that encouraged me.... i have to think seriously about it and see if i have to make the switch...

Many thanks again


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

linecookA [don't abuse the "chef" title],

Like RAS said,a school is a school;they are going to follow the same basic curriculum.I know people who went to CIA and French Culinary Institue and you'd think they went to a community college.

Even at the original LCB in France,they have worthless students [I've worked with a few French cooks/chefs in my time],so it all depends on the individual,not the school.

Look at it this way: Yale is a school with an incredible reputation...and our President [who is the biggest f***ing idiot on display in our country] went to Yale.

And just for clairification,do you work in fine dining [and what is your definition of "fine dining".It's not just a white tablecloth and napkins] or with a catering company? Your post from 5/15 stated you just started at a "good catering company" and in 15 days you switched jobs,were prep cook and then line cook in fine dining? Uh,it doesn't sound right to me.......


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## chefa (May 15, 2007)

Thank you for your reply. as i mentioned i started working with a management company that runs a catering oporation, and a fine dining restaurant. So i started in the catering kitchen doing prep work cuting and all that, now i moved to their fine dining restaurant as a linecook... hope that is clearer.

I thank you for the advise and you are right about schools , however there must be a reason why we have good schools and not so good schools (in my opinion), otherwise no one would have pursued yale or harvared... right? i am leaning more toward Kendall now and i think i should make the move.

Many thanks again.


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

Okay,that makes some sense.

Just keep in mind that when you say "fine dining" it means something very specific in this industry and is highly specialized.Even in big cities,the number of restaurants that qualify as "fine dining" are a handful out of thousands and have no less than 4 stars.

Here in Atlanta,for example,we have Joel Antunes.When he was running The Dining Room at the Buckhead Ritz [Alain Ducasse reccomended him for the position],the restaurant was the ONLY one in the entire SouthEast that got both the Mobil 5 Star Award and AAA 5 Diamond Award simultaneously...not to mention his own Michelin star in London.

_That_ is _fine dining._

Not many can afford a multiple-course meal/wine pairings for two and walk out paying $200 to $300 for the night.

I grew up in Chicago so I am very familiar with the area and when you say "fine dining",I think Charlie Trotter's place,The Dining Room at Ritz-Carlton,Ambassador East and West hotels,The Pump Room,etc...all of which would have had you on a prep station for a good while before moving you anywhere [especially with no previous experience], if they hired you at all,so don't be offended if I question the validity of your statement.


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## chefa (May 15, 2007)

thank you for the explanation, you are right about the meaning of fine dining. The one i work at will be concidered a very good restaurant but maybe not fine dining if that is the case.

Thank you again and i welcome any advice you have for me. I met with the people at Kendall and i will be transfering there soon.

Regards;


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

As long as you're getting your feet wet [and hands dirty!] and you feel comfortable,keep doing what you're doing!

Chicago is a great eating town...well,a great town overall.I miss it sometimes because Atlanta is tiny by comparison...but has better BBQ than Chicago:lol:

Thank god Giordano's does FedEx Next Day delivery of a true pan pizza;I get one every year to remind me what REAL pizza tastes like:lips:

Last bit of advice in my coffee-fueled state: don't feel badly if you move around a bit,meaning if you don't spend a year or two years at one place.As you get further into your career,you'll find that you may have learned all you can from one place [or you see you're not moving up] and it's time to move on.

My personal rule was as soon as I was on auto-pilot and not being challenged,I was already scheduling a stage at another place and ready to leave.
But if you get into a hotel,by all means,stay at least a full year.It can be crazy,annoying,maddening,exhausting...but you will learn a lot!


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## ashleyluvscake (Jul 10, 2007)

People keep saying that school is a waste and to just go in and get a job, but wouldnt I be wasting their time if I didn't know how to carmalize an onion and they have to stop everything to teach me. 

I saw culinary school as a base. Just like law school is a base for a lawyer. Of couse he is going to learn so much more after working in the field for a year but school got him prepared for the next step in learning. 

I havent started school yet and I was very excited until I came to this board and found everyone saying I am ignorant and wasting my time and money.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

Culinary school is a good way to start a career in the kitchen, and chances are you will be adequately prepared for a position in a decent restaurant upon graduation, but school is not the only way.

Some of the best chefs started off as a dishwasher with no previous culinary experience. Somebody saw it as a worthwhile time investment to pull the dishwasher aside, show him how to slice and caramalize onions, and work from there.

Some of the best people I have had the pleasure of working with are the dishwashers. We crosstrain the dishwashers that are really interested in learning on basic banquet prep. Teach them how to plate salads and desserts for 250 people, teach them something new the next time.

With all that being said, you are going to come across ALOT of negative people in this industry. People are always going to complain, people are always going to try to bring you down. Some of them just dont like the idea of brushing down the grill at 12 am and then sweeping and mopping. There is alot of hard work and dedication that goes into maintaining a successful career in this industry, some just aren't willing to put in the work. Ignore the negativity, do not get distracted.


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## jamesford (Jul 18, 2007)

I have enjoyed reading all the debates and such on this thread. I can say that wokring in a kitchen is a very interesting experiance, and way differant that TV or other forms of media could ever describe it. In the time I have worked in resturaunts, I have leaned that most great cooks and chefs work very hard, and keep difficult hours. Doesn't seem that there are too many industries that would require someone to be cleaning a kitchen at 10:30 at night, when they have to be back at 5 to open it back up. Since I have been working at the Lodge (about 2 and a half months) I have become addicted to caffeine, haha.

I work for the State, so I am sure my jobs look at prestige and experiance is much differant than in the "real world". Oddly enough, getting a good job for the state has nothing to do with WHAT you know, just with WHO you know. We had a head chef who worked his way up from being a bus boy, and became the best chef in Kentucky, who later was forced into retirement because he crossed the wrong people's paths (he has a tendancy of cussing out people in very high positions). His son has been working there for 10 years, and is a cook. He knows just as much/more about cooking than anyone I have ever met, but, because of who's son he is, may never advance to being a chef (although, if he were anyone else's son, he would be the head chef of a state park now).

On the flip side of that example, our current Assistant Chef, who has assumed the duties of the head chef for quite some time while the state was looking for someone qualified enough, worked all his life for commercial resturaunts and has a 4 year degree in Geology (yes, rocks!). He is not a very great cook. In fact, when he started less than a year ago, he did not even know how to make a rue! (Butter+flour... Difficult?) However, since he knows the right people, he got right in as the asst. chef.

Just remember though, ambition and hard work seem to be the most important factors in culinary from what I can tell, especially if you are working from a low position. I was once told "You can teach anyone to cook, but you can't teach them to work".


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## atltournant (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes,school is a base and yes,it is up to YOU to decide where you go from there.Just keep in mind the dismal statistics that only 10% of grads will still be in the profession 5 years after graduation.They will tell you that in school and it's true.

Look,as other posters have said in one way or another,there is no set formula for success..and it also depends on your definition of success.It can be a simple matter of being in the right place at the right time,who you know,who you've worked with or years of busting your butt and not getting any reward...it's just the way it goes.

I have seen people who are ACF Certified and who were some of the worst cooks/managers I have ever seen;they just happened to pay their fee and pass the test..and then there are people who have no formal training,but could run circles around everyone in the kitchen because of their natural affinity for the profession.Not everyone is cut out to do this;I've been in it 18 years and trust me,I've seen them come and go.

I read in another post of yours that you are going to LCB;I went to the one here in ATL and here's an interesting tidbit for you: there was an ad in the paper a couple of weeks ago that they were hiring administation positions [the folks who get you to sign on the dotted line] and the starting pay was $35,000 plus incentives [commission for each new student].They will make just under $10,000 more than the tution they are charging students.

It's scary to think that some person in an office is going to make MORE money [by a few thousand dollars!] than a sous chef at Ritz-Carlton just by convincing future students to sign up.It's a business.

But I also noticed that they are being slightly more truthful in their tv commercials [no tv ads when I went there,and it sickened me to see the ads after I graduated] where after they say "Do you want to be a chef,pastry chef or professional caterer?" that they put on the screen in small letters "Some positions may require more training and experience" because people walk in there thinking you graduate with "Chef" on the diploma...you don't,because you aren't.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

How very true. And....There is no such thing as immediate success. Many of the folks that you see out there in the spotlight have been at it for years. It really sickens me the way most feel that because they have invested a short amount of time at something they "deserve" a life's long effort in rewards. Not very many see it over-night and I question those that do. It's kinda like watching someone taste something. Even before they have the friggen fork out of their mouth they exclaim how friggen wonderful the dish is. Taste at the speed of light! Phhtttt!!!! I don't know about most but my taste buds must have a slower reaction time than those. So then some "who's who wanna be" exclaims that this day/week/month/year "so in so at such and such" is the greatest and a "Flash in the pan " is born. So...... Where are they now? I know this sounds jaded, vague and more like a borderline malcontent but..... You can't enter this thing called cooking with expectations for the stars when you haven't yet "earned" the ability to reach the sky. That is why the statistic is only 10%. Personally I believe it takes allot of commitment, honesty, commitment, consistency, commitment, determination, commitment, patience, commitment, integrity, commitment, perseverance and commitment. By the way did I say COMMITMENT! 

Okay, I'm starting to get more into a rant than anything else so...... Culinary School is a great "stepping stone" and should be taken advantage as such. Although it is not necessary it does provide a good base of some of the how and why as well as basic technique to build on. 
JMHRPO


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## ashleyluvscake (Jul 10, 2007)

Thank you 3 for your posts. Very insightful. I think I had been getting defensive because it seemed as everyone was saying you cant do it but I get it now that you are saying it takes A LOT of work and determination. I get that. I had actually already anticipated it.

I worked my way from the bottom to nearly the top of the field that I am in now and am used to working 12-15 hour days 6-7 days a week and because I started this career right out of high school I guess in my mind I didnt realize there was another way to do things heh.

Again I appreciate everyones advice. So far I have decided to go to school in November, right now I just finished my first day as the new intern for Sweet-gems in Huntington Beach. GREAT Chef there and so awesome for giving me an opportunity! If you would like to check her out Sweet Gems: Custom Cakes and Confections.

If I hadnt come on these boards I dont think I would have thought to get an internship BEFORE school. so thanks to everyone for that. Now I have a place to go for my externship and maybe a job after school (if I dont mess it up haha)


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## pirick (Jul 30, 2007)

I've been reading this thread with interest, and would just like opinions on my personal situation. I'm married to a sous chef, who just graduated back in Dec 06 from Conrad Hilton school of hotel and restaurant management at University of Houston. I have always been a "foodie", I love food, love to cook, collect cookbooks, always looking for new recipes and I have been struggling with finding the right career path. I've always thought it would be great to go into the culinary arts, but lacked confidence for a long time. I spent 3-4 years as a waitress, and learned to bartend on the job in New Orleans, which I took forward and became the head bartender at a private fine dining establishment. I have about 10 years experience in the food industry between waitressing and then bar tending at restaurants, mostly in the fine dining atmosphere. The catch is this: I'm 40 years old. I've only known my husband for 2 years, and we've only been married since February, and I have spent alot of time trying to do what would be commercially viable, ie working in an office which I've been doing for the past five years. I make $35,000 a year, have great benefits, and I am MISERABLE. I am a creative person and I can't stand pushing papers, sitting in front of a computer (unless it's at home for fun), I'm sick of answering phones and I want to work hours closer to my husband's. As it is, we rarely see each other. I've always wanted to cook, it's been a dream of mine, but as I say, I lacked the confidence for a long time, and didn't think I could afford to quit my job and go to school full time. My husband is making a decent salary as a sous chef actually, and he has ok benefits. He says if it's really what I want to do, then I can quit my job and start the culinary arts program at Houston community college in the spring semester, and just do something part time (preferably at a restaurant), and I really want to do this. Now that I know it's an option, I can't think of anything else. Is it too late for me? I am not looking to be famous or have unrealistic ideals about this, I just want to cook and I want to do it in fine dining. Is 40 too old to start? Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading my long letter.

Pam


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

Pam- It's not too late. That said, you sound like you still have stars in your eyes.

Get yourself a part-time restaurant job BEFORE you quit your day job. Cooking professionally is hard physically demanding work. It hits career changers especially hard. You may find that its too much for you. 


Professional cooking for the most part is not a creative job. The vast majority of us cooks are turning out the same plates night after night, producing someone else's masterpieces. Generally the only people who are allowed to be creative are managment. The rest of use just get yelled at if the micro-greens are on crooked.


Try looking into catering and personal cheffing, I think you might like them more. It's a lot more flexable then restaurant work.


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## bigsimp (Aug 4, 2007)

Ok I have read this thread almost all the way through. I agree real world experience is the best to get to know what you want. I would say you really need to work the line for a while before spending any money. It is hard and dirty. You work hours that most people never imagine. You are working while people are sleeping. You might finish cleaning at midnight and turn around and open the next day. I have seen people come from good Culinary schools and not know the differences between Apples and Oranges. I have also seen some Dishwashers become the one of the best line cooks we have. So it is determination and motovation that will get your far. You may work for years for the same Chef and have helped him do almost everything and not get a thank you. The school that people go to have the best equipment and are really clean. The real world is you have some decent equipment but better make it work. I was at this dinner that my sister gets invited too. The people cooking for us were Seniors and Washington University. They were attractive so I started talking to them. We were talking about cooking and I started talking to them about experience. Neither of them had any outside the classroom experience. So we were discussing about equipment and ideas. Well I started telling them about the real world of cooking. Well both of their eyes lit up and they were looking at me like I was crazy. Well needless to say their head chef instructor did not like this at all. He came up to me and told me he would like a word with me. He pulled me to the side and told me these student were training to be personal chefs not restaurant cooks. So he would appreciate if I not talk to them about real kitchens. I laughed and agreed. He was a head chef at a country club before becoming an instructor so I am sure he has been through some kitchens where stuff did not work all that well and you had to make it do what you wanted. I just found it funny how he was tring to hide them from real life. He had them wrapped up in how school is and this is the same stuff you will be using in day to day cooking. So I kinda feel that schools put on a front for their students. I have been talked down to, had food thrown back at me and told replate this. I have worked from 10am-12am and turn around and open back up at 10am again. It is rough and I feel that I have become a better person for doing this rather than going straight to Culinary school. I know I love it and can not see myself doing anything else. I hope that people reading this make the right desisions. This career is not for eveyone but if it is for you it can be fun and very rewarding. My chef always told me you can train monkeys to cook but you have to have talent to become a sucessfull chef.
Simp :smoking:


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## elton (Aug 4, 2007)

First, this is a great site. I'm glad I found it. I'm heading to Chicago in a few weeks, where I'll be attending the School of Culinary Arts at Kendall College.

I was enrolled at the Cooking and Hospitality Institute of Chicago before, but after talking to quite a few people in the industry, not one of them seemed to like CHIC - which I took with a grain of salt - until all of them had mentioned Kendall. Besides, Kendall had the BA program, and that meant a lot.

As far as the sentiment that culinary schools aren't worth it, I think that's entirely objective. There are definitely two lines drawn in this industry of ours, and that's those who have learned in the kitchens, trial by fire - and those of us switching careers and going to culinary school. I don't think trying to dissuade people from attending cooking school is doing anyone any good. At least, if it's truly not for them after receiving their degrees they have that, which will potentially help them if they must change careers. Academic education is important, too. Perhaps we should try to get students to work in the industry as well while in school?

I believe it comes down to this: You get out what you put in. Period.

Personally, I have very little experience cooking, and I barely do it at home - just because I really don't know how. But now I experiement. Once I decided I wanted to learn this profession - this lifestyle - I began going to the store once a week, recognizing certain things and relishing this new passion.

I've picked up and read over a dozen Kitchen/Chef books in the past three months: All of Bourdain's books, Batali, Bill Buford and Jacques Pepin's books, Becoming A Chef and Page and Dornenburg's other books, Daniel Boulud's books, and several Michael Ruhlman books, and I've purchased my first cook book: Bourdain's Les Halles Cookbook.

This is all very new to me, but somehow, almost quite supernaturally, as I told Mr. Ruhlman, this thing has found me. And I have to tell you, I haven't been this excited and passionate about something in a decade.

At first, I thought I was too old for this. I'm 29 going on forty, it feels like, and I was in a ****-job at a dealership, until I got hurt. And I'm not the most spiritual type of guy, but even that event seemed to make all this happen for me.

I start classes in September. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm currently emailing about five restaurants and bistros a day, and Italian places the next, and pizza or dog joints the next looking for a position - any position. Not having much luck yet, but that should change when I actually arrive in Chicago and can apply in person.

So I wish the rest of you culinary students all the luck in the world, I really do. You're going to succeed if you have a thick-hide and confidence in yourself and respect for everything!


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

Hope everything works out for you at kendall elton. The school really doesnt factor much into your success, it is more of what you put into it. Though if I had the choice again, I would have gone to Washburne where their AAS is in the $14 k range...

I graduated from CHIC and now am pursuing my BA in Hospitality Management at Kendall. I really cant think of a bad thing to say about the school. Maybe Ill see you around campus.


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## elton (Aug 4, 2007)

Yeah, RAS, that'd be cool. Good luck to you, too.

I was wondering if a BA in Culinary Arts was necessary in our industry to help me with what I want - which is my own restaurant someday down the line, but I'm coming to the realization that it's all about who you work for and where you work and what you learn.

So is this BA more for me? I'm starting to think so...


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I was put in that position not too long ago when I decided to pursue education past my AAS.

Both the Illinois Institute of Art and Kendall offer BA's in both Culinary and Hosp. Management, but my ultimate decision was made because I felt that a BA in management is definitely more solid then a BA in culinary, considering I already have an AAS in culinary.

Im not sure if this may interest you, but Kendall offers a 2+2 AAS & BA program. Check the details with your admissions rep, but I believe that you take 2 yrs of Culinary and 2 yrs of management to ultimately give you an AAS in Culinary and a BA in F&B Management.

Again, best of luck, check in with us and keep us updated with your status.


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## elton (Aug 4, 2007)

I think that's exactly what I'm looking for. I guess I'll figure that out in a year or so...

I will let you know how it goes. It'll be my pleasure.


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