# The new "Normal" for us all....



## chefross

So it would seem that the media has taken upon itself to describe what life will be like for Chefs and restaurants in the future after Covid-19.
Chefs will no longer: 
Be able to cook without a mask.
Be able to have a large staff
Be able to serve food buffet style
Be able to share work tools
Waitstaff are not immune either
No more condiments (mustard, ketchup, etc) on the tables
No more napkin dispensers
All staff must wear gloves when serving

These things may or may not come to fruition but they make sense......Scary stuff


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## halb

chefross said:


> All staff must wear gloves when serving


I would expect that from the stupid media that has no idea what the purpose of gloves is. Are they going to change gloves each time they go to a different table? Or is it that they figure we have to be protected from the cooties that servers carry? 

Every night on my local cable news I'm subjected to this twit, standing in the middle of nowhere giving a report, wearing a mask and blue gloves.


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## chefbillyb

Anything and everything a Chef and FOH have to do to make the customer safe and comfortable eating at their restaurant. When you say no sharing knives, just think of multiple cooks on the front line touching ladles, pans, knives, spatulas and so on. Everyone needs to just use common sense.


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## halb

chefbillyb said:


> Anything and everything a Chef and FOH have to do to make the customer safe and comfortable eating at their restaurant.


Unfortunately public perception is media driven. The proper way is for servers to wash their hands frequently instead of wearing the same gloves for their entire shift just to make the customers think they are being protected.


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## chefross

Yeah, the gloves thing is unfortunately here to stay. I am witness to their abuse daily at work in the grocery store.
Media driven everything makes the public either, indifferent or scared, depending on the day.


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## chefbillyb

halb said:


> Unfortunately public perception is media driven. The proper way is for servers to wash their hands frequently instead of wearing the same gloves for their entire shift just to make the customers think they are being protected.


You could stand at the door and tell people that you feel the waitstaff washing their hands is a better idea than wearing gloves. The perception by your customers will be wearing gloves look safer. Thats all they hear on the news, were gloves and masks. You're not going to change that. It doesn't matter what is better, it matters what they think is better........I would hav the waitstaff take the order and deliver the food. I would have busboys pickup plates. I would have one person setting up tables and presetting whatever....


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## halb

chefross said:


> Media driven everything makes the public either, indifferent or scared


Or spreads false information that the pubic doesn't know any better to refute.


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## halb

chefbillyb said:


> Thats all they hear on the news, were gloves and masks.


Well, until there is a way for people to eat with masks and gloves on, I don't think we'll be having to worry about this for awhile.


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## phatch

The spanish flu led to the rise of closets (architecture) over wardrobes (furniture). Normal is always evolving.


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## halb

Interesting, never heard of that. Do you think it was to keep contaminated clothing out of the living areas?


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## phatch

It was perceived as controlling dust better which was thought to be a flu vector.

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/subway-tile-design-in-epidemics


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## meezenplaz

"Every night on my local cable news I'm subjected to this twit, standing in the middle of nowhere giving a report, wearing a mask and blue gloves."

There is a word for that within the television news media industry....
DRAMA!

The restaurant i was working in was already sanitising menus and keeping condiments off the table before the closures. IMO, the crisis just greatly increased conscientious diligence. Which is basically a good thing I think. But how much of it is actually reducing the virus risk Im rather doubtful on. Im in agreement with some that a lot of these measures that will be insisted upon are basically psychological warfare. War against a panicy, uniformed public. With the end objective being of course to make the public (falsely) comfortable so theyll still come in and keep our doors open.


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## halb

I found this in my inbox today-


> Now some cities have taken the next step, throwing tables and chairs on roadways. Vilnius has become a big open-air cafe, with well-spaced places to eat in the city's public square. In a two-week experiment in Tampa, Florida, businesses in some neighborhoods are allowed to put tables at 6-foot intervals and operate in what were once street parking spaces, even without a permit. It's gaining support in San Francisco, which already has a program doling out parking spaces for small street-side cafés.


Full article here- https://www.wired.com/story/cities-reopen-outdoor-dining-lifeline/


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## sgsvirgil

My brother is a doctor with more than 35 years in practice. For the first 26 of those years, he was a surgeon. This is what he has to say about the "protocols" involved with Covid 19.

He describes social distancing as a means to control the virus as a person who stays in the shallow end of a pool in an effort to not get wet. This virus spreads by contact. Touch something or someone who has been infected and chances are very, very good you will become infected. That's how it works. Being 6 feet away from someone is not going to do a thing to prevent the spread of the virus.

When it comes to masks that are not designed to protect against viral contagions, he calls them "bacteria bags." Masks and gloves are single use, short term PPE only. Neither are designed to protect the user from viral contaminates. Most people wear these masks for hours at a time, constantly touching them, adjusting them, taking them off and putting them back on again. Every time they touch their masks they contaminate their hands with their funk and then contaminate everything they touch, gloves or not. He says, and I quote, "they may as well lick their hands and go around touching everything."

He believes the only people who should be wearing masks of any sort are those who are sick and those who believe they may be infected. That's all. The masks will help reduce the risk of those who are infected from spreading the virus and through potentially infected body fluids such as saliva and mucus throughout their environment, but, that's about all.

He's a firm believer in the science that our immune systems are the best defense we have against things like Covid. I tend to agree with him. We both grew up in an age where vaccines and antibiotics were not dispensed like Pez Candy. Doctors let their patients be sick in order to develop their immune systems. As a result, the general public had a better tolerance for these things.

There's a lot of rumor and myth out there that's being taken as fact for the simple reason that its been repeated enough times. Even the government has bought stock in much of this anti-information. These are indeed very strange and very volatile times.

Be well, all.


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## nicko

@sgsvirgil I really liked what you said. In regards to our health and immune system I have been following Dr. Furhman for a while now and find that just eating well exercising goes a long long long way in avoiding the norms like heart disease, diabetes high blood pressure and keeps your immune system at its top.


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## dectra

halb said:


> Unfortunately public perception is media driven. The proper way is for servers to wash their hands frequently instead of wearing the same gloves for their entire shift just to make the customers think they are being protected.


I'd point out it's Not "just to make the customer THINK they are being protected".

It is doing something to ACTUALLY help protect the folks who eat the food...and spend their money to keep places open.


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## dectra

halb said:


> Or spreads false information that the pubic doesn't know any better to refute.


So, you presume that Americans can't look things up, and make an informed choice?


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## halb

dectra said:


> I'd point out it's Not "just to make the customer THINK they are being protected".
> 
> It is doing something to ACTUALLY help protect the folks who eat the food...and spend their money to keep places open.


We all know that washing hands frequently instead of wearing gloves WILL actually protect the customers. But it's what customers are led to THINK that will bring them in, and what they THINK is going to harm them.



dectra said:


> So, you presume that Americans can't look things up, and make an informed choice?


With all the garbage from the media and on the internet it has always been a problem for people to make an informed choice. It's just too easy for anybody with an agenda, bias, opinion or just a nut case to put stuff out there for all to see. So it just boils down to "make it sound believable and people will believe it".

But now with this pandemic, even the so called experts don't know. So do you really think that the average person is going to be able to figure out what is best from everything they are bombarded with every day? This is a very emotional issue for many people, and when emotions take over rational thinking, people will not always do what the they should.


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## dectra

> But now with this pandemic, even the so called experts don't know. So do you really think that the average person is going to be able to figure out what is best from everything they are bombarded with every day?


That is a difference between you and I. Experts DO know of what they speak. That is WHY they are Experts. Would you permit some guy to walk in off the street and tell your staff he can do the job you do as well as you? No, you wouldn't, you are better than the average person at what you do.

There is no need to denigrate a person's expertise in their field any more than someone would come into your area and do the same. Professional respect cuts across such an idea.

Some seem to equate "people" as the same as Individuals. But Individuals are *not* ignorant sheep; Individuals can and do look to ascertain the facts....and not blindly follow what is "told" to them.


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## halb

dectra said:


> That is a difference between you and I. Experts DO know of what they speak. That is WHY they are Experts. Would you permit some guy to walk in off the street and tell your staff he can do the job you do as well as you? No, you wouldn't, you are better than the average person at what you do.
> 
> There is no need to denigrate a person's expertise in their field any more than someone would come into your area and do the same. Professional respect cuts across such an idea.
> 
> Some seem to equate "people" as the same as Individuals. But Individuals are *not* ignorant sheep; Individuals can and do look to ascertain the facts....and not blindly follow what is "told" to them.


If the experts knew what they were talking about or at least agreed with each other we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are. Unfortunately some people are incapable of understanding that we have never encountered anything like this virus before, so nobody really knows. Medical professionals are divided on how best to handle and treat this. An example of this is the ten million respirators that were said to be needed. Not only did we not need nearly as many, but they were actually killing patients because the experts did not understand this disease.

Then when you consider the politics that controls a lot of this as well as the social engineering (media hype and drama to scare the public into compliance with what the experts say) I'll just use my own intelligence and training to do what I think is best for me and my family.

How easily led do you think people are when politicians go nuts thinking everybody will drink bleach and Lysol because Trump stupidly mentioned it jokingly. Sure sound like Ignorant sheep to me.


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## Flour

I've gotten used to the mask, have three, change them out if they feel too moist, about every hour and an half, yay (yes, have and made washable masks since the beginning)! In my situation, I prepare a meal and use gloves just as I was taught in food safety manager class, this will not change for me, but it will be hard for wait staff and others to understand the proper ways and tasks to use them for-class by health department would only take an hour or two for a simple food handler class, and could be given to each restaurant. I mean I like our local gal, guessing y'all all got your own. So since I am having to do what we are supposed to do for the past 2 months in the triage kitchen, I am constantly explaining how and why the masks and gloves are being used, and that they -are not- for the same purpose (one mostly protecting wearer, one mostly protecting the client). I think a visual path with that fluorescing powder they use to show kids the spread of germs, use that in the server prep classes. But I am not part of a restaurant staff so I have no idea how they are working that education out.


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## Seoul Food

A lot of good points floating around here. Hopefully common sense will prevail and we can all look back at this as a learning experience, even if we end up feeling a little foolish in the end. As far as the "new normal" being floated around, I see no reason that after this is all done with the "new normal" can't just be the old normal with increased attention to sanitation. Like everything else we do it's always one extreme or another, never any middle ground. I don't understand all these new mandates being touted as laws trying to be effective when they have no data on how they will work or be implemented.


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## Seoul Food

nicko said:


> @sgsvirgil I really liked what you said. In regards to our health and immune system I have been following Dr. Furhman for a while now and find that just eating well exercising goes a long long long way in avoiding the norms like heart disease, diabetes high blood pressure and keeps your immune system at its top.


Exactly, our food source is so contaminated with chemicals and by products now it is a massive health issue. It was highlighted for me as I had to buy a lot of shelf stable products I may not have ever considered before in the past to have food on hand in case of an emergency.


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## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> So, you presume that Americans can't look things up, and make an informed choice?


Yes, critical thinking and independent verification are more uncommon than common now a days. People are lazy and would rather get their news from Facebook than take the time to research anything themselves. Part of the problem is everything is so political now that people will naturally gravitate towards information that supports their views rather than have open discourse on subjects that they encounter opposition on.


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## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> Yeah, the gloves thing is unfortunately here to stay. I am witness to their abuse daily at work in the grocery store.
> Media driven everything makes the public either, indifferent or scared, depending on the day.


I know my grocery stores are doing everything they can but I have to chuckle as they take an extra five minutes to wipe everything down between customers and in turn make the lines and wait times longer. They want everyone to stay one cart away from the person in front of you but it's okay if they stand right next to you in a line for the adjacent checkout. Again we are all learning as we go with this stuff but sometimes you have to scratch your head at some of the solutions.


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## sgsvirgil

dectra said:


> That is a difference between you and I. Experts DO know of what they speak. That is WHY they are Experts. Would you permit some guy to walk in off the street and tell your staff he can do the job you do as well as you? No, you wouldn't, you are better than the average person at what you do.
> 
> There is no need to denigrate a person's expertise in their field any more than someone would come into your area and do the same. Professional respect cuts across such an idea.
> 
> Some seem to equate "people" as the same as Individuals. But Individuals are *not* ignorant sheep; Individuals can and do look to ascertain the facts....and not blindly follow what is "told" to them.


Sometimes the experts get it wrong. How many times have the experts gotten it wrong? The definition of expert does not include the phrase "always right" or the word "omnipotent." Experts are a resource valued for the opinions they derive from facts. Like everyone else, they can too can get it wrong.


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## Seoul Food

sgsvirgil said:


> How many times have the experts gotten it wrong? The definition of expert does not include the phrase "always right" or the word "omnipotent." Experts are a resource valued for the opinions they derive from facts. Like everyone else, they can too can get it wrong.


Exactly, there are always going to be varying levels of opinions on subjects in any profession. Just because someone in a chosen field is an "expert" doesn't mean you have to take what they say at 100% face value and disregard your own thoughts. I never understood how we are suppose to believe the experts have all the answers as what is best for us with this and at the same time have everyone saying this is a new thing and we know nothing about it.


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## ShelteredBugg1

chefross said:


> So it would seem that the media has taken upon itself to describe what life will be like for Chefs and restaurants in the future after Covid-19.
> Chefs will no longer:
> Be able to cook without a mask.
> Be able to have a large staff
> Be able to serve food buffet style
> Be able to share work tools
> Waitstaff are not immune either
> No more condiments (mustard, ketchup, etc) on the tables
> No more napkin dispensers
> All staff must wear gloves when serving
> 
> These things may or may not come to fruition but they make sense......Scary stuff


Id prefer that anyway.


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## fatcook

I had to laugh last week at costco when I had to wait after the customer before me so the cashier assistant could spray and wipe down the plexi shield that has gone up. There is no reason to touch it, and I'm not going to lick it... (inwardly, it wasn't the person doing it, but whoever higher up came up with the idea)

I really really hate seeing all of the glove wearing out in public (and the following littering of used gloves). Gloves are not magic, they are going to pick up and transfer anything your hands will.


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## halb

fatcook said:


> I had to laugh last week at costco when I had to wait after the customer before me so the cashier assistant could spray and wipe down the plexi shield that has gone up. There is no reason to touch it, and I'm not going to lick it... (inwardly, it wasn't the person doing it, but whoever higher up came up with the idea)
> 
> I really really hate seeing all of the glove wearing out in public (and the following littering of used gloves). Gloves are not magic, they are going to pick up and transfer anything your hands will.


It's really just a "show" to make the customers think that they really keep the place clean so they won't be reluctant to come back... until they look at the parking lot and all the used gloves all over.


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## chefross

sgsvirgil said:


> My brother is a doctor with more than 35 years in practice. For the first 26 of those years, he was a surgeon. This is what he has to say about the "protocols" involved with Covid 19.
> 
> He describes social distancing as a means to control the virus as a person who stays in the shallow end of a pool in an effort to not get wet. This virus spreads by contact. Touch something or someone who has been infected and chances are very, very good you will become infected. That's how it works. Being 6 feet away from someone is not going to do a thing to prevent the spread of the virus.
> 
> When it comes to masks that are not designed to protect against viral contagions, he calls them "bacteria bags." Masks and gloves are single use, short term PPE only. Neither are designed to protect the user from viral contaminates. Most people wear these masks for hours at a time, constantly touching them, adjusting them, taking them off and putting them back on again. Every time they touch their masks they contaminate their hands with their funk and then contaminate everything they touch, gloves or not. He says, and I quote, "they may as well lick their hands and go around touching everything."
> 
> He believes the only people who should be wearing masks of any sort are those who are sick and those who believe they may be infected. That's all. The masks will help reduce the risk of those who are infected from spreading the virus and through potentially infected body fluids such as saliva and mucus throughout their environment, but, that's about all.
> 
> He's a firm believer in the science that our immune systems are the best defense we have against things like Covid. I tend to agree with him. We both grew up in an age where vaccines and antibiotics were not dispensed like Pez Candy. Doctors let their patients be sick in order to develop their immune systems. As a result, the general public had a better tolerance for these things.
> 
> There's a lot of rumor and myth out there that's being taken as fact for the simple reason that its been repeated enough times. Even the government has bought stock in much of this anti-information. These are indeed very strange and very volatile times.
> 
> Be well, all.


I mentioned what you wrote to my niece in Seattle and got back an earful. 
She accused me of passing along disinformation.
Basically doctors are NOT scientists.


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## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> I mentioned what you wrote to my niece in Seattle and got back an earful.
> She accused me of passing along disinformation.
> Basically doctors are NOT scientists.


This is where the confusion comes from. Is a doctor not an "expert" in their profession? In this scenario do you listen to the medical professional treating you or the scientific professional running data modules? Unless you are telling everyone you are curing COVID-19 with apple cider vinegar I'm not sure how people can just shut anything down as disinformation. We are constantly being bombarded with conflicting information from the government, CDC, WHO, ect. so at this point who is really to say what is what anymore.


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## Seoul Food

halb said:


> It's really just a "show" to make the customers think that they really keep the place clean so they won't be reluctant to come back... until they look at the parking lot and all the used gloves all over.


I vaguely remember an article somewhere about how Walmart and such were closing early and opening late to "clean" and the employees were calling them on in because no such thing was happening. Again I think it was for public perception like you said.


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## sgsvirgil

chefross said:


> I mentioned what you wrote to my niece in Seattle and got back an earful.
> She accused me of passing along disinformation.
> Basically doctors are NOT scientists.


lol....I'll let him know. Maybe he'll want to give back his half dozen diplomas and handful of fellowships since he's "not a scientist" and all. He was always a bit of an over achiever. :lol::lol:


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## sgsvirgil

Seoul Food said:


> This is where the confusion comes from. Is a doctor not an "expert" in their profession? In this scenario do you listen to the medical professional treating you or the scientific professional running data modules? Unless you are telling everyone you are curing COVID-19 with apple cider vinegar I'm not sure how people can just shut anything down as disinformation. We are constantly being bombarded with conflicting information from the government, CDC, WHO, ect. so at this point who is really to say what is what anymore.


You have to understand the psychology of it all. If something is repeated often enough and by enough people, it takes on the illusion of truth no matter how outlandish or improbable it may be. In fact, the more controversial something is, the more likely people are to believe it.

The problem begins when people are confronted with facts and information that directly refute that which they have accepted as fact. They become defensive and often sacrifice their logic and reason to avoid either being the "odd man out" who doesn't share in the popular consensus or the embarrassment of being that person who actually believed something that was false......or both. The need to be accepted and the need to protect one's ego form a synergistic, self reinforcing circle. It is the very fabric from which mass delusion is made.

Remember those guys that said cigarette smoking doesn't cause cancer. Two decades and several billion dollars later, they were finally cured of their delusion. But, not before it killed tens of millions of people who believed them because they were "experts." The poor souls that died set aside their logic and reason that was screaming that taking smoke into their lungs was not a good idea because the "experts" said it was safe.

Hospital masks are considered PPE when they are used properly. However, they are not being used properly by the majority of the public. 90% of those who are improperly wearing masks either in public or in private are actually part of the problem.


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## cheflayne

sgsvirgil said:


> The problem begins when people are confronted with facts and information that directly refute that which they have accepted as fact. They become defensive and often sacrifice their logic and reason to avoid either being the "odd man out" who doesn't share in the popular consensus or the embarrassment of being that person who actually believed something that was false......or both. The need to be accepted and the need to protect one's ego form a synergistic, self reinforcing circle. It is the very fabric that mass delusion is made from.


Oh yeah! The less knowledge that people have, the more stubbornly they cling to the "knowledge" they do have.


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## dectra

chefross said:


> I mentioned what you wrote to my niece in Seattle and got back an earful.
> She accused me of passing along disinformation.
> Basically doctors are NOT scientists.


 The definition of "*scientist*" includes someone learned in science, and so a physician absolutely is a *scientist*. Traditionally trained physicians learn physics and chemistry, biology, biochemistry and molecular biology, and later, anatomy and physiology basics.

So, YES, Doctors ARE scientist.


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## chefbillyb

Everything thats done in a restaurant is about the customers perception. When you set up you menu and costing its always perception of value. When you give your waitstaff uniforms it's perception of uniformity and neatness in the dining room. This goes on and on throughout everything we do in this business. When I wear my Chef coat and hat while carving, it's how I want to be perceived by my customers. If I'm wearing a mask and gloves, I'm perceived as trying to keep my customers safe in my restaurant.....


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## Seoul Food

sgsvirgil said:


> Hospital masks are considered PPE when they are used properly. However, they are not being used properly by the majority of the public. 90% of those who are improperly wearing masks either in public or in private are actually part of the problem.


Besides wearing them wrong we're also reusing single use items over and over. Not sure how much that dollar store paper mask is going to protect you after using it for a week.


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## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> Besides wearing them wrong we're also reusing single use items over and over. Not sure how much that dollar store paper mask is going to protect you after using it for a week.


So, now you (wrongly) claim that the masks and gloves are being used over and over in Restaurants?

Yes, some hospitals, in the crush of the influx of patients *did* have to do so. That issue is beginning to subside; one can find masks more readily than before.

In the end, it comes down to this: Do you do what is Prudent & Necissary to keep your patrions safe, or do you just throw up your hands and parrot the foolishness that passes for "knowlege" by those who demand that we all "just go back to work" and consequences be damned?


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## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> So, now you (wrongly) claim that the masks and gloves are being used over and over in Restaurants?
> 
> Yes, some hospitals, in the crush of the influx of patients *did* have to do so. That issue is beginning to subside; one can find masks more readily than before.
> 
> In the end, it comes down to this: Do you do what is Prudent & Necissary to keep your patrions safe, or do you just throw up your hands and parrot the foolishness that passes for "knowlege" by those who demand that we all "just go back to work" and consequences be damned?


I'm talking more about the general public but I guess I would assume that restaurants are experiencing some of the same practices.

It may be a wrong claim for restaurants but I work in a elder care facility in NY and I can tell you for a fact that we, and other facilities like us are reusing single use PPE for extended periods. You cannot order anything and the state distributes PPE to facilities as they see fit. Our first shipment came in in March and we just got our second one last week. We had people using the same N95 masks for over a month due to shortages.

The foolishness is thinking that everyone in society has to hide in their houses and live under the will of our governments because people will die. People die everyday and it is a sad and horrible thing but at this point it makes more sense to start opening things and placing more responsibility on the individual to practice good measures and have only those will medical conditions or those who choose to stay at home to do so. The shutdown was never intended to make sure no one ever dies from COVID-19 ever again, it was to help our unprepared medical facilities not crash. We are past that point as the data will shown and we need to understand that of course you are going to have more positive cases as we expose more people to germs and statistically people will die from that. Positive cases do not equal that same amount of people in an ICU on ventilators. Society will have to decide where the line is between financial ruin for the country or the lives of primarily people who immune compromised to begin with.

Too much longer and a lot of business owners won't have to worry about doing what is "necessary and prudent" to keep their customers safe because their businesses will no longer exist.


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## halb

dectra said:


> The definition of "*scientist*" includes someone learned in science, and so a physician absolutely is a *scientist*. Traditionally trained physicians learn physics and chemistry, biology, biochemistry and molecular biology, and later, anatomy and physiology basics.
> 
> So, YES, Doctors ARE scientist.


Maybe according to Webster. The true definition depends on what their discipline is. A scientist's work revolves around research and development of new drugs, cures, etc. and sits in a lab or office all day. A physician sees and treats patients using generally recognized methods and procedures used in their specialty. Though all may be doctors (MDs), I wouldn't expect my GP to come up with a cure for cancer.


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## halb

Seoul Food said:


> Too much longer and a lot of business owners won't have to worry about doing what is "necessary and prudent" to keep their customers safe because their businesses will no longer exist.


Already we had one restaurant here on the news the other night throwing in the towel. :emoji_fearful:


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## Seoul Food

halb said:


> Already we had one restaurant here on the news the other night throwing in the towel. :emoji_fearful:


I've never seen so many for lease or closed signs in my town in my life. Places I went to when I was younger simply do not exist now.


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## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> I'm talking more about the general public but I guess I would assume that restaurants are experiencing some of the same practices.
> 
> The foolishness is thinking that everyone in society has to hide in their houses and live under the will of our governments because people will die. People die everyday and it is a sad and horrible thing but at this point it makes more sense to start opening things


Dear God....you state you work in a nursing home. You KNOW this virus kills the very people you work with.

No one is "hiding in their houses". People are maintaining a safe, socially acceptable distance to AVOID spreading the virus. One week after a Kentucky protest, where protesters Demanded things "just open up" the state experienced its largest spike in coronavirus cases. The foolish want to "reopen" things...so that very same virus will spread....and KILL MORE PEOPLE.

Yea, let's reopen....folks can "go back to work"....and serve people a heaping serving of Death.


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## dectra

halb said:


> Maybe according to Webster. The true definition depends on what their discipline is....


Just stop.

You are not a Scientist.

For you to claim "gosh, I guess that what you posted IS the literal definition of a scientist, but MY definition is some whacked out nonsensical version of reality"

That somehow is supposed to be better than the ACTUAL FACTS?


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## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> Dear God....you state you work in a nursing home. You KNOW this virus kills the very people you serve. And yet you want to "reopen" things...so that very same virus will spread....and KILL MORE PEOPLE.
> 
> Yea, let's reopen....folks can "go back to work"....and serve people a heaping serving of Death.


I'm not sure what you expect the end game to be here? Just keep everything shut down forever? I am blessed to still have an income during this but I am not going to blindly disregard the people out there who have no income, and have possibly gone through all of their savings in the past two months of this. We have been open obviously through this whole ordeal so I'm not sure why you think letting some businesses reopen their doors is suddenly going to kill everyone. We have been practicing safe and responsible behavior as much as we can and that is not going to change if a small retail business suddenly gets to open their doors. I'm not sure why you would be so opposed to the economy opening back up unless you either can work completely from home or receive compensation for being home at the moment. If I was not in the position I was and at this point with the data had to choose a side of opening and having some more immune compromised people dying or letting my family starve and be homeless I would choose my family over strangers.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> . One week after a Kentucky protest, where protesters Demanded things "just open up" the state experienced its largest spike in coronavirus cases. The foolish want to "reopen" things...so that very same virus will spread....and KILL MORE PEOPLE.


I don't understand this thought process. Even the "experts" admit that a large percentage of people who get this will be asymptomatic, and of those that do get symptoms a large percentage will have cold or flu like symptoms and nothing more. It's not like everyone that gets a positive covid-19 result is then going to drop dead in the street the next day.


----------



## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> I'm not sure what you expect the end game to be here? Just keep everything shut down forever?
> 
> We have been open obviously through this whole ordeal so I'm not sure why you think letting some businesses reopen their doors is suddenly going to kill everyone.
> 
> We have been practicing safe and responsible behavior as much as we can and that is not going to change if a small retail business suddenly gets to open their doors.


First take a deep breath.

I have NEVER posted I know what the "end game is here".

Reopening business IS possible, if it is done in a _responsible_, _intelligent_ way.

Those "small retail businesses" that choose to reopen without maintaining safe and *proven* methods to reduce the spread of Covid19 are simply going to prolong this for all of us.

You seem all too willing to parrot the lie that "gosh, so what if you get it, you won't die" point of view. That's your right to do so.

It's also incumbent on others to point out by your ignoring the actual facts, you effectively become a source of misinformation that is likely to spread the disease to others....a disease that is killing 1,300 of Americans EACH DAY.

For a nation that constantly boast how wonderful, strong and resourceful as we do, it is astounding how following responsible safety measures is an anathema to so many Americans.


----------



## halb

Seoul Food said:


> I'm not sure what you expect the end game to be here? Just keep everything shut down forever?


I agree. Apparently the "scientists" aren't going to come up with a vaccine or cure anytime soon. So what would you have us do, continue to hide under our beds for the next couple of years until they do? At some point we are going to have to say enough. And yes, new cases are going to rise again and people will die when we start to open up. There is no other way. Hopefully people have learned enough by now about how to protect themselves and mitigate the damage.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> First take a deep breath.
> 
> I have NEVER posted I know what the "end game is here".
> 
> Reopening business IS possible, if it is done in a _responsible_, _intelligent_ way.
> 
> Those "small retail businesses" that choose to reopen without maintaining safe and *proven* methods to reduce the spread of Covid19 are simply going to prolong this for all of us.
> 
> For a nation that constantly boast how wonderful, strong and resourceful as we do, it is astounding how following responsible safety measures is an anathema to so many Americans.


I don't think anyone here is advocating for businesses to reopen in a way other than responsible and intelligent. I think the issues was coming down to governments mandating certain things that have no quantifiable way of measuring success. Is is safer for the minimum wage employee to wear the same gloves all day or to wash their hands several times throughout the day without gloves? Best laid plans are often just that, plans, and usually have much harder real world logistics to work out. No one has a black and white answer for all of this but it takes away from creative solutions if any mention of opening the economy is always met with that we are somehow murderers.


----------



## dectra

halb said:


> I agree. Apparently the "scientists" aren't going to come up with a vaccine or cure anytime soon.


And you *know this* how? Huge strides have been made in a very short time; countless thousands of people are working around the clock to solve this...

I don't expect folks to "cower under their beds". For you to try to put those words in my mouth shows that you are not open to having an honest discussion.


----------



## halb

dectra said:


> For a nation that constantly boast how wonderful, strong and resourceful as we do, it is astounding how following responsible safety measures is an anathema to so many Americans.


It all goes back to the intelligence of the average American who get their information from Facebook and social media.


----------



## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> I don't think anyone here is advocating for businesses to reopen in a way other than responsible and intelligent. I think the issues was coming down to governments mandating certain things that have no quantifiable way of measuring success.
> 
> No one has a black and white answer for all of this but it takes away from creative solutions if any mention of opening the economy is always met with that we are somehow murderers.


Surely you jest, sir.

Turn on fox news; read any of the political "rage tweets" that are blasted out each and every single day DEMANDING we reopen.

No one. And I mean NO ONE here has called anyone a "murderer".

For you to conflate an honest discussion where we have different points of view with unfounded hyperbolic statements tells the average person that you don't want to consider any point of view except ones that agree with you.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> Surely you jest, sir.
> 
> Turn on fox news; read any of the political "rage tweets" that are blasted out each and every single day DEMANDING we reopen.
> 
> No one. And I mean NO ONE here has called anyone a "murderer".
> 
> For you to conflate an honest discussion where we have different points of view with unfounded hyperbolic statements tells the average person that you don't want to consider any point of view except ones that agree with you.


Obviously I am not speaking for the entire country, I was referring to the people on this thread. I'm open to considering all points of view but your view point so far has been that we should not open because more people will die.



dectra said:


> The foolish want to "reopen" things...so that very same virus will spread....and KILL MORE PEOPLE.
> 
> Yea, let's reopen....folks can "go back to work"....and serve people a heaping serving of Death.


I'm pretty sure associating people going back to work and opening businesses with the direct result of another's death is calling them murders, or manslaughter's at the least.


----------



## halb

dectra said:


> Turn on fox news...


That's the reason I don't watch Fox, CNN or even the local news. I don't want to see stats of the latest cases and deaths like they were the election results. I don't want to hear some air head with a mask and gloves talking about someone dying.

With this sensationalism is it any wonder people are scared to death?


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> That's the reason I don't watch Fox, CNN or even the local news. I don't want to see stats of the latest cases and deaths like they were the election results. I don't want to hear some air head with a mask and gloves talking about someone dying.
> 
> With this sensationalism is it any wonder people are scared to death?


Yeah it's just bad news all day every day. Stress is a huge negative factor for your health and I don't think enough people consider this when absorbing all this media.


----------



## Seoul Food

On a lighter note it's national eat what you want day. So everyone indulge themselves and wait for the rapture to release us from coronavirus.

https://nationaltoday.com/national-eat-what-you-want-day/


----------



## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> I'm open to considering all points of view but *your view point so far has been that we should not open because more people will die.*
> 
> I'm pretty sure associating people going back to work and opening businesses with the direct result of another's death *is calling them murders*, or manslaughter's at the least.


At NO TIME have I EVER said we should not reopen. *Not Once*.

Review everything I have posted. Show me where I _said _unequivocally we should not reopen.

My view, since it must be spelled out is this:

If and when businesses reopen, and they willingly choose to not do so with the safety and health of their customers in mind shows they do not, in any way, truly care about those customers.

That is in NO WAY calling them "murderers".

You seem comfortable in twisting the words of others, so that it supports your views.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> At NO TIME have I EVER said we should not reopen. *Not Once*.
> 
> Review everything I have posted. Show me where I _said _unequivocally we should not reopen.





dectra said:


> The foolish want to "reopen" things...so that very same virus will spread....and KILL MORE PEOPLE.
> 
> Yea, let's reopen....folks can "go back to work"....and serve people a heaping serving of Death.


So when you say that you really mean you want to reopen? I'm confused here, reading that makes it seem like you don't want to reopen.



dectra said:


> You seem all too willing to parrot the lie that "gosh, so what if you get it, you won't die" point of view. That's your right to do so.


I don't really see how it is a lie when the data clearly shows that statistically, you have a good chance of not dying from this, much less develop severe symptoms unless you have severe underlying health problems.



dectra said:


> It's also incumbent on others to point out by your ignoring the actual facts, you effectively become a source of misinformation that is likely to spread the disease to others....a disease that is killing 1,300 of Americans EACH DAY.


If you want to talk about "ignoring facts" you should also include with your number that approximately 7500 people die each day in the US and 250,000 people die world wide a day from various sources but we don't plaster it in everyone's faces all day everyday.


----------



## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> So when you say that you really mean you want to reopen? I'm confused here, reading that makes it seem like you don't want to reopen.
> 
> I don't really see how it is a lie when the data clearly shows that statistically, you have a good chance of not dying from this, much less develop severe symptoms unless you have severe underlying health problems.
> 
> If you want to talk about "ignoring facts" you should also include with your number that approximately 7500 people die each day in the US and 250,000 people die world wide a day from various sources but we don't plaster it in everyone's faces all day everyday.


Wow.

You choose, willingly, to ignore what we were discussing. Just to remind you, it is about Your Customers. But gosh, you certainly can play the "What about ...this, or that Game" can't you?

You choose to bury your head in the sand, pretending that the chances of spreading this deadly disease are somehow "statistically" irrelevant. 12 % of Americans say they know someone who has died from the new coronavirus. 

26% percent of respondents said they know someone who has tested positive for the coronavirus,

15 %said they know someone who *tried to get tested but was turned away.*

In the end, you choose to take an irresponsible view of having your business reopen, and the health and well being of your customers and staff take a back seat to your wallet.

You don't get it. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

It is about your customers. Your staff. Your _foods purveyor_s

Every single solitary one of them is at a level of risk; a risk you *choose* to ignore.


----------



## halb

Listen to yourself! Get a grip! Stop watching the crap on TV. The reality is that until they come up with a vaccine we are all at risk. And there are two risks. The other risk, which is just as deadly is "hiding under the bed" waiting for this to end. Not only is it ruining businesses and the economy, it's ruining the health of people both psychologically and physically. 

What good will it do if we keep this up until they come up with a remedy and the economy is in shambles, everybody is broke or committed suicide and there are no jobs? Might as well have died of the virus to begin with. 

The fortunate thing is that we can control one of the two risks right now. We can't do anything about the virus but we can mitigate it's effect on the population by getting back to normal as soon as possible. And from what I see, the only thing holding that up is the politicians worrying about overloading the healthcare system, not saving lives.


----------



## dectra

halb said:


> Listen to yourself! Get a grip!....the economy is in shambles, everybody is broke or* committed suicide* and there are no jobs? Might as well have died of the virus to begin with.........but we can mitigate it's effect on the population by *getting back to normal as soon as possible*. And from what I see, the only thing holding that up is the politicians worrying about overloading the healthcare system, not saving lives.


Dear God.

Halb, the essence of your point of view is that gosh, it's a shambles, let's commit suicide and blame the politicians....

Tell us, sir: How many of your patrons are currently banging on your doors, begging you to reopen?

How many lives will be lost when you choose WILLINGLY to ignore the obvious health risks by reopening?

It's clear the pursuit of money is more important to you than the health and safety of your customers or staff.


----------



## halb

I'm not even talking about restaurants, but all businesses in general.



dectra said:


> It's clear the pursuit of money is more important to you than the health and safety of your customers or staff.


It's clear to me that if we lapse into a depression more lives will be lost or ruined than from the virus.


----------



## dectra

halb said:


> I'm not even talking about restaurants, but all businesses in general.
> 
> It's clear to me that if we lapse into a depression more lives will be lost or ruined than from the virus.


Tell that to the 80,000 dead...or to the friends I've lost to this disease. Of course, you'll have to go down to the _morgue_ or the Cemetery to explain it to them....


----------



## halb

Being born is a death sentence. Get over it.


----------



## redbeerd cantu

Regardless of the confusion at this time, the fact is that as long as the customer believes that they are being protected, they'll spend their money. How many of us are familiar with the actuality if how kitchens operate? All of us. Hands have never been clean enough. The dishes have never been washed enough. Hell, there's people working in our kitchens who don't bathe more than four times a week.

The customer doesn't know this. They aren't in BOH with us. The open kitchen joints have managers ensuring that we all look the part, but some don't care that some people come in smelling like orifice and goat yard. The closed kitchens tend to have staffs that aren't disciplined enough to even give the appearance of basic hygiene knowledge.

There aren't enough gloves in the world to accommodate the necessary, proper use of them. There isn't enough time on the line to properly wash our hands each and every time we need to. I've been admonished for using too many gloves, too many times, to not be aware of this. Step away from the line, after every steak, while I'm working the grill, in a steakhouse, in a Saturday night, in Texas, to wash my hands? How?

In the end, as long as the customer THINKS, everything is hunky-dory, it will be.

No?


----------



## halb

Thing is the "new normal" means that we have a duty to at least try and ensure that our customers will be as safe as possible. Not that we only make them think so.

In the back of house, you only need to wear gloves when preparing and plating RTE foods. Washing your hands is encouraged as often as possible but if you are a grill man that's not necessary for every steak. If you are handling raw chicken then steak then absolutely wash your hands before handling each one.

IMO servers shouldn't wear gloves. The concern is cross contamination from the customers at one table to another. That would require changing gloves each time a server went to and from a table. Wearing the same gloves for any length of time while serving multiple customers can spread the virus to all those customers as well as the kitchen. Long story short, WASH YOUR HANDS or at least use hand sanitizer each time you take things from a table.

Unfortunately what the customer has been made to believe is that the server needs to wear gloves because they may be carrying the virus. They need to know that it's actually the gloves that may be contaminated by other people in the restaurant.


----------



## dectra

halb said:


> Being born is a death sentence. Get over it.


Wow. That took a dark turn.

Life is not, and never has been a "death sentence", regardless of what some say.

Life is a challenging, wonderful, stressful thing....and I choose to live every moment of every day with as much grace and fortitude as I can.

I understand your stress; my brother's restaurant is hanging on by a thread even as we go back and forth with our commentary. I and others in my family have done what we can to help him, and we pray it can, in the end, work out, not only for him but for other friends I have in the industry. Please know that includes you and yours.


----------



## halb

Thank you!


----------



## ShelteredBugg1

redbeerd cantu said:


> Regardless of the confusion at this time, the fact is that as long as the customer believes that they are being protected, they'll spend their money. How many of us are familiar with the actuality if how kitchens operate? All of us. Hands have never been clean enough. The dishes have never been washed enough. Hell, there's people working in our kitchens who don't bathe more than four times a week.
> 
> The customer doesn't know this. They aren't in BOH with us. The open kitchen joints have managers ensuring that we all look the part, but some don't care that some people come in smelling like orifice and goat yard. The closed kitchens tend to have staffs that aren't disciplined enough to even give the appearance of basic hygiene knowledge.
> 
> There aren't enough gloves in the world to accommodate the necessary, proper use of them. There isn't enough time on the line to properly wash our hands each and every time we need to. I've been admonished for using too many gloves, too many times, to not be aware of this. Step away from the line, after every steak, while I'm working the grill, in a steakhouse, in a Saturday night, in Texas, to wash my hands? How?
> 
> In the end, as long as the customer THINKS, everything is hunky-dory, it will be.
> 
> No?


How are you doing


----------



## redbeerd cantu

ShelteredBugg1 said:


> How are you doing


All good. Yourself?


----------



## ShelteredBugg1

Pretty well i recall reading that you had started a food truck or something of that sort how is that going ?


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> Thing is the "new normal" means that we have a duty to at least try and ensure that our customers will be as safe as possible. Not that we only make them think so.
> 
> In the back of house, you only need to wear gloves when preparing and plating RTE foods. Washing your hands is encouraged as often as possible but if you are a grill man that's not necessary for every steak. If you are handling raw chicken then steak then absolutely wash your hands before handling each one.
> 
> IMO servers shouldn't wear gloves. The concern is cross contamination from the customers at one table to another. That would require changing gloves each time a server went to and from a table. Wearing the same gloves for any length of time while serving multiple customers can spread the virus to all those customers as well as the kitchen. Long story short, WASH YOUR HANDS or at least use hand sanitizer each time you take things from a table.
> 
> Unfortunately what the customer has been made to believe is that the server needs to wear gloves because they may be carrying the virus. They need to know that it's actually the gloves that may be contaminated by other people in the restaurant.


This point exactly goes back to some of the original content. I believe people would be quicker to wash their hands if they were soiled without gloves as opposed to with. And if you are not going to change your PPE multiple times throughout the day (Which is hard for a lot of people due to the real quantity issues we have in this country) then it is only for show at the end of the day. It's the same line of logic that has health departments telling us not to have gloves or aprons on when smoking or traveling to the restroom. The ability to do more harm than good is high in those type of situations when people aren't actively thinking about the PPE.


----------



## cheflayne

Seoul Food said:


> It's the same line of logic that has health departments telling us not to have gloves or aprons on when smoking or traveling to the restroom.


You lost me, are you saying this is not good logic?


----------



## Seoul Food

cheflayne said:


> You lost me, are you saying this is not good logic?


No, sorry if that came out that way. I meant the same logic should be applied. People should not be wearing PPE/aprons/gloves all day because of examples of times when contamination can occur. If someone can't even remember to be sanitary and change things without being told during these times what makes people think they will change suddenly and just do it proactively throughout the day when not engaging in obvious activities. The same line of logic should be applied and not expect that having staff wear them all day when serving customers or preparing food will be a good thing.


----------



## cheflayne

I figured that was what you meant. I am a big proponent of education/enlightenment as opposed to dumbing things down to regulations in order to protect us from ourselves. Unfortunately that requires that people participate and people seem to resist extending the effort to be educated.

I have nothing against people..._some of my best friends are people!!! _However my dog is also one of my best friends and she seems more receptive to training/education/enlightenment. :~)


----------



## halb

Unfortunately "just do it because I said so" is the only thing some people care to understand.


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> Unfortunately "just do it because I said so" is the only thing some people care to understand.


This mentality is what I am afraid of going forward. We already give so many people and groups control over various aspects of our life, once we open the flood gates all the way there is no going back.


----------



## chefross

At present local government is requiring me to wear gloves and a mask while at work (in the grocery store) I find myself changing my gloves at least 15 times during my shift. We require customers to wear them while shopping and only allow 3 people in to the store at a time.
This virus is sickening and killing people. I don't understand why some people don't seem to be alarmed or concerned about this.


----------



## sgsvirgil

chefross said:


> At present local government is requiring me to wear gloves and a mask while at work (in the grocery store) I find myself changing my gloves at least 15 times during my shift. We require customers to wear them while shopping and only allow 3 people in to the store at a time.
> This virus is sickening and killing people. I don't understand why some people don't seem to be alarmed or concerned about this.


People are alarmed and concerned about the number of deaths associated with this virus. However, the problem flows from the fact that the death rate of this virus was exaggerated and consequently, so was the reaction of just about every government in the Western Hemisphere.

Let me put this into context.

There are 330 million people in the US. Of that population, 1.45 million people are reportedly infected with the virus. However, that data is changing by leaps and bounds on a daily basis as testing becomes more and more prevalent. Because of the increasingly widespread testing, no less than 26 studies have been performed in the US by local and state governments in conjunction with multiple universities and medical institutions that prove millions more people were actually infected with the virus than the 1.45 that have been confirmed. That means the death rate is literally a fraction of what it was said to be. Estimates place that death rate at around one half of one percent; which is about on par with some strains of influenza.

In 2017-18, the flu virus, which is a close kin to Covid 19, infected more than 34 million people and resulted between 41,000 and 79,000 deaths. It generated more than 17 million doctor visits and just under 1 million hospitalizations. By Covid standards, that's a pandemic and a basis for lock downs and social distancing. But, no such orders have ever been issued.

Right now, the Covid 19 death count in the US about 84,000. The problem is that at least 60% of those who are counted as Covid related deaths were never tested. Now that testing has become more widespread, we are not only learning that far more were infected than previously thought at around 14% of the population, we are also finding that nearly half of all suspected Covid cases that are tested come back negative. So, if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000, probably less. 14% of the US population is around 46 million. Even if the death count remains at 84,000, that a death rate than is a fraction of 1%.

Next, we have to factor in the number of Covid related deaths that really had nothing to do with Covid. We will never know that true figure. Just a short while ago, Pennsylvania was reported to have removed quite a few deaths that were reported as Covid related. In Philly, for example, what triggered the investigation was a car accident victim that died from massive head trauma (he was literally decapitated) and was counted as a Covid related death. Officials discovered that people who died of strokes, heart attacks or who were listed as terminal for any one of a variety of reasons were being counted among the Covid related deaths for no other reason than they showed some of the symptoms of Covid. Never mind the fact that conditions such as pneumonia are often a consequence of many serious or otherwise terminal conditions, especially cancer, COPD, emphysema, diabetes and so on. Even people who died of strokes and heart attacks were reportedly counted among the Covid related deaths. This is what they found in just one city in one state. What would be the results if every city, especially New York City, were to undergo the same audit?

What strikes me as particularly strange is the fact that every year between October and May, every country in the Western Hemisphere deals with an influenza outbreak. Some worse than others. In the US, we call it "flu season." Tens of thousands die every year from flu and complications directly related to it (mostly the same high risk demographics as Covid). Tens of millions are infected. Millions are hospitalized and yet, we have never experienced such a reaction as we have in the last 2 to 3 months in relation to Covid.

There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?

We are all properly trained professionals when it comes to the practice of safe food handling, especially when it comes to sanitation and bacteria control. What is happening and what we are being told and how to deal with it simply doesn't pass the smell test for a variety of reasons yet, few people are raising their hands and asking the right questions.

My first question is "Cui Bono?"

Stay well, everyone.


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> We require customers to wear them while shopping and only allow 3 people in to the store at a time.


Wow I haven't heard about any customer limits so extreme. How big is the place you work and your active cases/per population? I'm in NY and they don't have restrictions like that at the grocery stores.


----------



## Seoul Food

sgsvirgil said:


> There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?


At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theory nut, I believe it comes down to politics, power and money. The people at the top want to see what they can get away with with the people at the bottom and fear is a powerful motivator. Not to mention the fact that this will make certain people a whole lot of money in the end. Just like everything else related to government and politics in the end the it'll be the average joe that is left holding the check and wondering how they got screwed so badly.


----------



## chefross

Seoul Food said:


> Wow I haven't heard about any customer limits so extreme. How big is the place you work and your active cases/per population? I'm in NY and they don't have restrictions like that at the grocery stores.


We are a small family owned grocery store on an island with population of about 1000. It's the tourists that are causing us to take such extreme measures, to protect us workers. People are supposed to take everything they need with them before they come here. and once here, are supposed to quarantine themselves for 14 days and then proceed with the social distancing regulations.

sgsvirgil, I couldn't agree with you more but still have to do what I'm told......


----------



## dectra

sgsvirgil said:


> People are alarmed and concerned about the number of deaths associated with this virus. However, the problem flows from the fact that the death rate of this virus was exaggerated and consequently, so was the reaction of just about every government in the Western Hemisphere.
> 
> Let me put this into context.
> 
> There are 330 million people in the US. Of that population, 1.45 million people are reportedly infected with the virus. However, that data is changing by leaps and bounds on a daily basis as testing becomes more and more prevalent. Because of the increasingly widespread testing, no less than 26 studies have been performed in the US by local and state governments in conjunction with multiple universities and medical institutions that prove millions more people were actually infected with the virus than the 1.45 that have been confirmed. That means the death rate is literally a fraction of what it was said to be. Estimates place that death rate at around one half of one percent; which is about on par with some strains of influenza.
> 
> In 2017-18, the flu virus, which is a close kin to Covid 19, infected more than 34 million people and resulted between 41,000 and 79,000 deaths. It generated more than 17 million doctor visits and just under 1 million hospitalizations. By Covid standards, that's a pandemic and a basis for lock downs and social distancing. But, no such orders have ever been issued.
> 
> Right now, the Covid 19 death count in the US about 84,000. The problem is that at least 60% of those who are counted as Covid related deaths were never tested. Now that testing has become more widespread, we are not only learning that far more were infected than previously thought at around 14% of the population, we are also finding that nearly half of all suspected Covid cases that are tested come back negative. So, if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000, probably less. 14% of the US population is around 46 million. Even if the death count remains at 84,000, that a death rate than is a fraction of 1%.
> 
> Next, we have to factor in the number of Covid related deaths that really had nothing to do with Covid. We will never know that true figure. Just a short while ago, Pennsylvania was reported to have removed quite a few deaths that were reported as Covid related. In Philly, for example, what triggered the investigation was a car accident victim that died from massive head trauma (he was literally decapitated) and was counted as a Covid related death. Officials discovered that people who died of strokes, heart attacks or who were listed as terminal for any one of a variety of reasons were being counted among the Covid related deaths for no other reason than they showed some of the symptoms of Covid. Never mind the fact that conditions such as pneumonia are often a consequence of many serious or otherwise terminal conditions, especially cancer, COPD, emphysema, diabetes and so on. Even people who died of strokes and heart attacks were reportedly counted among the Covid related deaths. This is what they found in just one city in one state. What would be the results if every city, especially New York City, were to undergo the same audit?
> 
> What strikes me as particularly strange is the fact that every year between October and May, every country in the Western Hemisphere deals with an influenza outbreak. Some worse than others. In the US, we call it "flu season." Tens of thousands die every year from flu and complications directly related to it (mostly the same high risk demographics as Covid). Tens of millions are infected. Millions are hospitalized and yet, we have never experienced such a reaction as we have in the last 2 to 3 months in relation to Covid.
> 
> There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?
> 
> We are all properly trained professionals when it comes to the practice of safe food handling, especially when it comes to sanitation and bacteria control. What is happening and what we are being told and how to deal with it simply doesn't pass the smell test for a variety of reasons yet, few people are raising their hands and asking the right questions.
> 
> My first question is "Cui Bono?"
> 
> Stay well, everyone.


Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%.

Your supposition that "if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000..." is NOT backed up by facts; unless of course, your choice of where you get your info from is a right leaning "news" organization.

A simple google search proves this.
https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html

Another factor that is widely overlooked is the contagious nature of Covid. Those 86,000 deaths (not 84,000) that you'd somehow 'cut in half' have occurred in the space of a little over 4 months. Show us where the "flu" has killed that many in four months....

I get it. We ALL hate this. But to misstate the facts, in an attempt to reopen too soon or to have folks congrigate before it is actually safe is just inviting more death. And last time I looked, dead people don't spend money in restaurants.....


----------



## halb

dectra said:


> A simple google search proves this.


How does that prove anything?? You can do 10 Google searches and get as many opinions that masquerade as fact.

-Hal


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> We are a small family owned grocery store on an island with population of about 1000. It's the tourists that are causing us to take such extreme measures, to protect us workers. People are supposed to take everything they need with them before they come here. and once here, are supposed to quarantine themselves for 14 days and then proceed with the social distancing regulations.
> 
> sgsvirgil, I couldn't agree with you more but still have to do what I'm told......


Kind of a double edged sword. I would guess that a large portion of your local economy is tourist based but at the same time it's making things harder too. How hard is it to get deliveries where you are?


----------



## chefross

Seoul Food said:


> Kind of a double edged sword. I would guess that a large portion of your local economy is tourist based but at the same time it's making things harder too. How hard is it to get deliveries where you are?


FedEx, UPS, USPS, and vendors are not the problem. Sysco even comes here. It's the availability of product. Big box stores, (Walmart, Meijers) get first dibs on product....leaving the scraps for the little guys.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%


I'm glad you acknowledge that the true mortality rate will take time to understand and know, but it really does no good to keep talking about the current percentage rate. The rate we have now means absolutely nothing and does nothing more than scare people who will compare it to the flu rate. Until we know how many people total were infected, than calculating mortality rate based on current number is meaningless.



dectra said:


> Your supposition that "if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000..." is NOT backed up by facts; unless of course, your choice of where you get your info from is a right leaning "news" organization.


I believe he was using simple math for easy numbers. While obviously there is no way to currently prove how many cases there really are, there is plenty of evidence out there showing how cases are being miss labeled. Even the CDC and the White house gave very lenient guidelines on how COVID-19 deaths are to be written on death certificates. Where I am, when they release new death counts they always add that x% were confirmed cases and y% were probable cases. The issue a lot of people have is with the probable cases being counted towards the whole which messes with the numbers. Why would the CDC want so much possibility of bad data coming from something this "new"? Maybe because they realized unless they start showing how this is worse than the flu a lot of people are going to look pretty silly and a lot of people are going to be pretty mad. As far as a argument of a "right leaning "news" organization, that statement only really shows your own bias and unwillingness to think rationally. To automatically assume someone's political affiliations solely based on this opinions on one situation is short sighted and frankly offensive.



dectra said:


> A simple google search proves this.
> https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html
> 
> Another factor that is widely overlooked is the contagious nature of Covid. Those 86,000 deaths (not 84,000) that you'd somehow 'cut in half' have occurred in the space of a little over 4 months. Show us where the "flu" has killed that many in four months....


The R value of invluenza is already a known factor due to all the data we have on it. The R factor on COVID-19 is only estimates based on current data. That is also not counting that we have a vaccine already for the flu. Add in the fact that a lot of influenza or pneumonia cases are now being labeled as COVID-19 and the numbers are skewed. You can't compare the two for total deaths to infections currently because the end data is unknown.



dectra said:


> I get it. We ALL hate this. But to misstate the facts, in an attempt to reopen too soon or to have folks congrigate before it is actually safe is just inviting more death. And last time I looked, dead people don't spend money in restaurants.....


I don't know that you actually do get it. Not everyone who wants to reopen is somehow misstating the facts. The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> FedEx, UPS, USPS, and vendors are not the problem. Sysco even comes here. It's the availability of product. Big box stores, (Walmart, Meijers) get first dibs on product....leaving the scraps for the little guys.


Yeah those places are making a killing right now. I know some states made it so they couldn't sell "non-essential" items but here its a free for all.


----------



## dectra

Seoul Food said:


> I'm glad you acknowledge that the true mortality rate will take time to understand and know, but it really does no good to keep talking about the current percentage rate. The rate we have now means absolutely nothing and does nothing more than scare people who will compare it to the flu rate. Until we know how many people total were infected, than calculating mortality rate based on current number is meaningless.
> 
> I believe he was using simple math for easy numbers. While obviously there is no way to currently prove how many cases there really are, there is plenty of evidence out there showing how cases are being miss labeled. Even the CDC and the White house gave very lenient guidelines on how COVID-19 deaths are to be written on death certificates. Where I am, when they release new death counts they always add that x% were confirmed cases and y% were probable cases. The issue a lot of people have is with the probable cases being counted towards the whole which messes with the numbers. Why would the CDC want so much possibility of bad data coming from something this "new"? Maybe because they realized unless they start showing how this is worse than the flu a lot of people are going to look pretty silly and a lot of people are going to be pretty mad. As far as a argument of a "right leaning "news" organization, that statement only really shows your own bias and unwillingness to think rationally. To automatically assume someone's political affiliations solely based on this opinions on one situation is short sighted and frankly offensive.
> 
> The R value of invluenza is already a known factor due to all the data we have on it. The R factor on COVID-19 is only estimates based on current data. That is also not counting that we have a vaccine already for the flu. Add in the fact that a lot of influenza or pneumonia cases are now being labeled as COVID-19 and the numbers are skewed. You can't compare the two for total deaths to infections currently because the end data is unknown.
> 
> I don't know that you actually do get it. Not everyone who wants to reopen is somehow misstating the facts. The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.


The only thing I do *not* get is the fact you have no ability to respect the work of Actual Doctors and Scientists, and choose instead to traffic in hyperbole and debunked talking points.

You may be good at your day job as a Chef, but you are a failure at your attempts to deny Facts.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> The only thing I do *not* get is the fact you have no ability to respect the work of Actual Doctors and Scientists, and choose instead to traffic in hyperbole and debunked talking points.
> 
> You may be good at your day job as a Chef, but you are a failure at your attempts to deny Facts.


I'm not sure what "debunked talking points" you are referring to. Unless you are stating that in fact the mortality rate will not go down if total infected cases goes up? Of that the CDC guidelines on reporting COVID-19 deaths on their website was somehow hacked into their system by a "right leaning news organization"? Or the fact that even on the website you quoted, they specifically state the R factor of H1N1 and state the PROBABLE R factor of COVID-19? And are you denying that comparing seasonal fludeaths with a vaccine against COVID-19 without a vaccine somehow is an even comparison? Pray tell me which of these facts have been "debunked"?


----------



## halb

Seoul Food said:


> The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.


Just calling this lifestyle the "New Normal" is repulsive to me. That implies that this is the way it's going to be from now on. That there is no end in sight.


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> Just calling this lifestyle the "New Normal" is repulsive to me. That implies that this is the way it's going to be from now on. That there is no end in sight.


It's a social experiment. People are so afraid because of the constant negative coverage blasted at them that some are unwilling to see the broader picture here. It should be a huge red flag that governments are bypassing laws to keep us "safe". People should be very wary about giving the government precedent of shuttering businesses, schools, travel, and recreation. They are telling people where they can shop, when and what they can buy. Who they can see, what they can wear and imposing fines and even jail time for non compliance. Governments should be afraid of the people, not the other way around. Our governor keeps extending his emergency powers, which basically give him the ability to suspend all laws, mandates and ordinances. I can't believe more people don't have a problem with a single person being able to keep extending their own power by executive order. And any attempt at a logical discussion about this is met with disdain as if we all must blindly obey our masters because they know what's best for us.


----------



## halb

Seoul Food said:


> It's a social experiment. People are so afraid because of the constant negative coverage blasted at them that some are unwilling to see the broader picture here. It should be a huge red flag that governments are bypassing laws to keep us "safe". People should be very wary about giving the government precedent of shuttering businesses, schools, travel, and recreation. They are telling people where they can shop, when and what they can buy. Who they can see, what they can wear and imposing fines and even jail time for non compliance. Governments should be afraid of the people, not the other way around. Our governor keeps extending his emergency powers, which basically give him the ability to suspend all laws, mandates and ordinances. I can't believe more people don't have a problem with a single person being able to keep extending their own power by executive order. And any attempt at a logical discussion about this is met with disdain as if we all must blindly obey our masters because they know what's best for us.


Now provide more government handouts and we will be a Socialist country.


----------



## chefross

...but when the protesters are out there with their signs and no masks, it makes the "We The People" look silly and the media gobbles it up.

How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.


----------



## halb

chefross said:


> How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.


Yeah, I guess it like the war protesters in the 60's. They felt that they had to do something and you know where that went.

But that doesn't help the fact that there are many people suffering and needing to go back to work. The Governor of this state keeps reopening dangling like a carrot on a stick. We have to meet some arbitrary numbers that they came up with before that can happen- which we are "very close to" as you can see by the death stats on the right of the screen.

On the news last night they interviewed the owners of a couple of hair salons. They talked about the changes they made to sanitize and keep customers apart when that happens. But the sad thing is, they say that if this goes on for another month or more they are going to have to go out of business. They still have rent and other bills to pay that have been backing up. And no, I heard no mention of a PPP loan but that's only good for 8 weeks. Could be what they are talking about.


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> ...but when the protesters are out there with their signs and no masks, it makes the "We The People" look silly and the media gobbles it up.
> 
> How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.


I know what you mean but it's kinda sad that that is the state of things isn't it. We should never get the the point of not even trying to enact change because the probability is low. If you don't try you will always fail.


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> Yeah, I guess it like the war protesters in the 60's. They felt that they had to do something and you know where that went.
> 
> But that doesn't help the fact that there are many people suffering and needing to go back to work. The Governor of this state keeps reopening dangling like a carrot on a stick. We have to meet some arbitrary numbers that they came up with before that can happen- which we are "very close to" as you can see by the death stats on the right of the screen.
> 
> On the news last night they interviewed the owners of a couple of hair salons. They talked about the changes they made to sanitize and keep customers apart when that happens. But the sad thing is, they say that if this goes on for another month or more they are going to have to go out of business. They still have rent and other bills to pay that have been backing up. And no, I heard no mention of a PPP loan but that's only good for 8 weeks. Could be what they are talking about.


I just don't understand how they can claim big box stores can "social distance" customers but a hair salon can't? Appointment only, limited number of customers inside at any given time, space between each chair, sanitation between customers, face mask for employees. How hard is that?


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## halb

That's the point. What makes a "Big Box" anymore essential than a hair salon? I would almost say that the decision was made by men.


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## chefross

Our governor just announced that are county will be reopening this Friday. Bars, restaurants, retail, and offices will all be able to open but to practice social distancing.
My concern is that in our small little hole in the wall, a restaurant with only 25 seats will have to juggle these in order to protect other diners. In such a small area, I feel this is absurd.


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> Our governor just announced that are county will be reopening this Friday. Bars, restaurants, retail, and offices will all be able to open but to practice social distancing.
> My concern is that in our small little hole in the wall, a restaurant with only 25 seats will have to juggle these in order to protect other diners. In such a small area, I feel this is absurd.


I think a lot will also come down to how strictly people or the government want people to practice these distancing measures. Hand washing, masks and trying to stay within a certain amount of space from one another as suggestions is a good start but I'm not sure how they can waste resources policing this. So say are supposed to practice the 6 foot suggestion in your restaurant. Does that mean just diners? What about staff? What about staff passing between diners? Is it any time someone is within 6 feet or just extended periods, and if so how long is that period? If your line is only 10 feet plus long and you need two cooks on it, how are you supposed to do that? And say you could eat maybe half of your capacity to make sure every diner is 6 feet apart, what if another customer walks in? Do you turn that business down, or take them in and hope the virtue police don't call the police in? Unfortunately I am seeing over and over that someone gets to make these rules, and leaves the sorting of the details to us to figure out with no guidance, only consequences.


----------



## phaedrus

Montana is starting to allow some things to reopen. The "R" here is well under 1 and there have only been 500 cases in the state with a pretty low death rate. Naturally this will rise as social distancing and stay-at-home orders start to expire and people go out more. I expect things will be pretty tough for restaurants for a while. A buddy of mine that was one of my Sous Chefs at a few years ago said they're allowing dine-in again on a limited basis starting this week but a lot of people will continue to stay away. It will be a while before people are confident that it's safe to do things in larger groups. For example I'm a huge film buff and in normal times I'll see a movie in the theater ever week or every other week but there's no way in hell I'm going to the theater anytime soon. Our local theater is reopening with limited seating this week but it's a hard pass from me.

The reality probably sunk in that a lot of things we used to consider normal activity or even "essential" was really just a hobby. A fair amount of people eat five or more meals of fast food a week but clearly that number could be zero and it wouldn't affect people much (except to make them healthier). The new normal will be very different for a while if not forever. If we get a vaccine, or if the pandemic burns itself out, I could see pre-COVID levels of economic engagement returning in two or three years.


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## chefross

It should be quite interesting to go out to eat, but being required to wear a mask in the dining room.


----------



## halb

If you think you only have to worry about the virus, there's another disease starting to spread. I see Disney Orlando is set to reopen and they have an implied contract that the patrons automatically agree to by entering the facility. The contract absolves Disney Orlando of any liability should the patron become infected with Covid from their presence there.

A couple of months ago I researched for my wife if a boss or the company (a non-essential business) has any liability if they require her to go to work during the lockdown. The answer was surprisingly no, she can be required to go to work and there is no way to prove that she contracted the virus from there if she did get sick.

So now apparently the lawyers have been hard at work thinking about this and now we do have to worry about liability. Liability is a good thing in the situation above, any boss like that should be locked up. But now businesses have to worry about being sued if a customer claims they got the virus from patronizing your business. Food borne illness is one thing because at least there usually is some way to show that the restaurant did something wrong. How do you defend yourself against this?


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> If you think you only have to worry about the virus, there's another disease starting to spread. I see Disney Orlando is set to reopen and they have an implied contract that the patrons automatically agree to by entering the facility. The contract absolves Disney Orlando of any liability should the patron become infected with Covid from their presence there.
> 
> A couple of months ago I researched for my wife if a boss or the company (a non-essential business) has any liability if they require her to go to work during the lockdown. The answer was surprisingly no, she can be required to go to work and there is no way to prove that she contracted the virus from there if she did get sick.
> 
> So now apparently the lawyers have been hard at work thinking about this and now we do have to worry about liability. Liability is a good thing in the situation above, any boss like that should be locked up. But now businesses have to worry about being sued if a customer claims they got the virus from patronizing your business. Food borne illness is one thing because at least there usually is some way to show that the restaurant did something wrong. How do you defend yourself against this?


I don't think it would be too hard to do honestly. The burden or proof in that situation is very hard to meet. I don't see how you could possibly pinpoint exactly from where or who you received the virus that made you sick. Say you were exposed to two people, how do you back date it, based on symptoms? One could have been asymptomatic longer. You would also have to prove that the business owners knowingly put customers in direct harm with a specific set of circumstances, not just a generalized argument that they may come into contact with a virus at some point.


----------



## halb

That's why I'm saying that the whole premise is absurd. But since the lawyers smelled that they can make money off of this, there is nothing to stop someone from dragging you into court and costing you money to say what you just said. All it takes is a few people just saying that they became infected after visiting your establishment and you're done.


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> That's why I'm saying that the whole premise is absurd. But since the lawyers smelled that they can make money off of this, there is nothing to stop someone from dragging you into court and costing you money to say what you just said. All it takes is a few people just saying that they became infected after visiting your establishment and you're done.


Well in America everyone sues everyone else over nothing so I can see where you are going with this. I believe that there have been some laws or attempts at laws restricting wrongful death suits against health care facilities, so maybe this is the route a lot of companies will go?


----------



## halb

In NY they are doing tracing. They are hiring hundreds of people to sit at their computers at home connected to a data base. Their job is to contact every individual that either has the virus or tests positive for it and find out where they have been and who they have been in contact with for last two weeks. Then the people they say they were in contact with get a call for the same information. And so on and so on. 

So you can see that it would be easy to establish a pattern that can implicate a certain location or place.


----------



## toddhicks209

chefross said:


> So it would seem that the media has taken upon itself to describe what life will be like for Chefs and restaurants in the future after Covid-19.
> Chefs will no longer:
> Be able to cook without a mask.
> Be able to have a large staff
> Be able to serve food buffet style
> Be able to share work tools
> Waitstaff are not immune either
> No more condiments (mustard, ketchup, etc) on the tables
> No more napkin dispensers
> All staff must wear gloves when serving
> 
> These things may or may not come to fruition but they make sense......Scary stuff


Some of these measures are off the wall, in my opinion. If this has to be the case, we could have done this stuff from the get-go, keeping restaurants and other parts of the economy open.


----------



## Seoul Food

toddhicks209 said:


> Some of these measures are off the wall, in my opinion. If this has to be the case, we could have done this stuff from the get-go, keeping restaurants and other parts of the economy open.


Exactly. There seems to be a double standard, if we continue to allow big box stores to operate using certain measures there should have been a point where the same measures could have been used for a lot more businesses. Usually it is harder to scale things up rather than down.


----------



## chefross

Okay. so here's what's happened now that the restaurants in my town are now open. One of them created an outdoor seating area that can only be accessed from the inside. People still must wear masks when arriving and then after being seated, may remove them.
Our ice cream place will not allow lines outside for ordering. All orders (including ice cream desserts) must be phoned in first. (no cell phone coverage or internet exists.)
Another place decided it would be best to wait until June to open.
Of course, as I'm driving by the best breakfast place on the island it has 15 cars out front already. I wonder how they developed social distancing in THAT place. I only holds 50.


----------



## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> Okay. so here's what's happened now that the restaurants in my town are now open. One of them created an outdoor seating area that can only be accessed from the inside. People still must wear masks when arriving and then after being seated, may remove them.
> Our ice cream place will not allow lines outside for ordering. All orders (including ice cream desserts) must be phoned in first. (no cell phone coverage or internet exists.)
> Another place decided it would be best to wait until June to open.
> Of course, as I'm driving by the best breakfast place on the island it has 15 cars out front already. I wonder how they developed social distancing in THAT place. I only holds 50.


I wonder why you can't have lines in the ice cream place if they are far enough apart? I think people need to realize no matter what we do there will be more cases and in all probability more deaths as we open things back up. Thinking that we can get things back on track with no one ever getting COVID-19 again is a pipe dream. The reporting agencies should also give all the data about the new cases. When you just make a blanket statement that 100 new people tested positive, that doesn't mean all of them are severely sick. Perspective needs to be maintained if we are to open back up.


----------



## halb

Seoul Food said:


> The reporting agencies should also give all the data about the new cases. When you just make a blanket statement that 100 new people tested positive, that doesn't mean all of them are severely sick. Perspective needs to be maintained if we are to open back up.


That's because they want to scare people into hiding under their beds. Been that way from the beginning. You can't appeal to logic because the public has very little of that. They need the government to tell them what to do and the government is happy to oblige.


----------



## Seoul Food

halb said:


> That's because they want to scare people into hiding under their beds. Been that way from the beginning. You can't appeal to logic because the public has very little of that. They need the government to tell them what to do and the government is happy to oblige.


Unfortunately it has broken down into political camps now, and just like everything else along these lines it is being represented by the two extremes. It is absurd that a town of 100,000 or less people with a few cases and deaths would have to follow the same guidelines as NYC or a similar metropolitan area. This is a good time for local governments to shine but they are being steam rolled by the higher ups.


----------



## cheflayne

Blaming the government is an easy thing to do but a cop out at the same time. In the USA, we are the government, so who are we blaming? Where does change originate? Look in the mirror. If the person in the mirror is doing nothing to advance change other than to complain...probably not much will change.



> I like to solve problems. I know it is a skill set, but it's also an obligation. I grew up with parents who believe that you don't simply complain: you try to find solutions and fix what's in front of you.
> Stacey Abrams


----------



## halb

cheflayne said:


> Blaming the government is an easy thing to do but a cop out at the same time. In the USA, we are the government, so who are we blaming? Where does change originate? Look in the mirror. If the person in the mirror is doing nothing to advance change other than to complain...probably not much will change.


Of course, that's the hallmark of our democracy. But the sad truth is that the people in power were put there by the very same people who worship the media and social media and will believe anything if they hear it enough or sounds believable.


----------



## dectra

halb said:


> Now provide more government handouts and we will be a Socialist country.


You mean handouts like your president has done?

Trump administration gave a $12 billion bailout for farmers impacted by the response from the tariffs that Trump has repeatedly said "china will pay"....and they do not. The USDA announced another $16 billion in trade-related aid to farmers. It came on top of the previous $12 billion package, for a grand total of $28 billion in two years.

28 Billion in handouts.....courtesy of the administration.


----------



## chefbillyb

I saw a few days ago https://www.wweek.com/restaurants/2...manently-closing-all-five-of-his-restaurants/ I would worry about how to navigate this up coming opening at different stages. This Chef in Portland isn't going to be the only one.


----------



## Seoul Food

cheflayne said:


> Blaming the government is an easy thing to do but a cop out at the same time. In the USA, we are the government, so who are we blaming? Where does change originate? Look in the mirror. If the person in the mirror is doing nothing to advance change other than to complain...probably not much will change.


As much as I would love to believe that I think recent events have shown that we are in fact not the government or the power in this country anymore. Government officials at various levels are abusing their "powers" in the name of public safety but some of these measures should be looked at very carefully and not just brushed aside. Yes everyone wants to be safe but we should not be giving up certain freedoms no matter how ridiculous it may seem now, because if we continue down this path someday it will lead to something worse. And yes it's easy to just complain about things but change has to happen on a massive scale to do anything and people are generally either too lazy, uneducated or busy to devote the time and resources required to navigate all the red tape. The people in the system have purposefully made the system difficult to change.


----------



## Seoul Food

dectra said:


> You mean handouts like your president has done?
> 
> Trump administration gave a $12 billion bailout for farmers impacted by the response from the tariffs that Trump has repeatedly said "china will pay"....and they do not. The USDA announced another $16 billion in trade-related aid to farmers. It came on top of the previous $12 billion package, for a grand total of $28 billion in two years.
> 
> 28 Billion in handouts.....courtesy of the administration.


I'd rather it go to farmers producing our food than illegals and leeches clogging our health care, education and benefits systems.

When you state "your president" I am assuming you do not care for Trump that much so I am just wondering if you approved of President Obama giving bailouts to the auto industry, banks and housing markets?


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## halb

dectra said:


> You mean handouts like your president has done?
> 
> Trump administration gave a $12 billion bailout for farmers impacted by the response from the tariffs that Trump has repeatedly said "china will pay"....and they do not. The USDA announced another $16 billion in trade-related aid to farmers. It came on top of the previous $12 billion package, for a grand total of $28 billion in two years.
> 
> 28 Billion in handouts.....courtesy of the administration.


Just a question that I don't off hand know the answer to. How much aid and trade related dollars do we give to China? I don't think it even comes close to the bailouts and aid we give to our own people. Want to make them pay? Use the money at home instead of giving it to them.


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## cheflayne

Seoul Food said:


> The people in the system have purposefully made the system difficult to change.


Who puts the people in the system? Can the people in the system be changed for different people? If I have an employee that is under performing do I keep scheduling them (re-electing) them or do I fire them. If a hiring agency keeps sending me poor candidates as replacement possibilities for an under performing employee do I just say oh well, sit on my hands, complain, and accept my fate; and hire one of their candidates because that is all there is? _What can one person do, right? _*Wrong! *It has to start somewhere.


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## Seoul Food

cheflayne said:


> Who puts the people in the system? Can the people in the system be changed for different people? If I have an employee that is under performing do I keep scheduling them (re-electing) them or do I fire them. If a hiring agency keeps sending me poor candidates as replacement possibilities for an under performing employee do I just say oh well, sit on my hands, complain, and accept my fate; and hire one of their candidates because that is all there is? _What can one person do, right? _*Wrong! *It has to start somewhere.


Depends on if you are in a union or not. 
But in all seriousness I'm not saying it can't be done, just the process is rigged against us. I am active in local politics as much as I can be and have tried to vote my governor out, but the reality is half a dozen districts in and around NYC are the deciding factor for all of NY state. Also a lot of positions do not necessarily allow for easy recall votes, there are specific standards and rules regarding them. In all honesty I do not believe even if it were easy to replace people it would solve anything, there is a fundamental flaw with the system right now and until we find a way to address that it doesn't matter how many times we change the faces.


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## phaedrus

Wow, this took a turn for the absurd!:rofl:


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## cheflayne

When the going gets weird, the absurd turn pro.


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## nicko

I am thinking it i time to shut this one down guys.


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