# Tweak this pasta sauce recipe?



## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Hello all, I'm new to this forum and could use help tweaking the below recipe. A few specific questions/notes:

-I am very concerned about calories, so I don't use an oil or fatty meats.
-I love red wine in pasta sauce, should I be using cabernet or chianti or anotheR?
-Should I use fresh herbs or dried? Should I add oregano? how much?
-should I use tomato sauce and or paste in addition to and or in lue of the diced tomatoes?


1.25 lbs ground turkey breast, cooked
2 medium onions, chopped
5 cloves garlic, crushed and minced
2 28oz cans diced tomatoes
 3/4 cup dry red wine
10 oz shredded carrots
1/4 cup chopped fresh parsley
1/3 cup chopped fresh basil
1 teaspoon sugar
1 teaspoon salt
3 zucchinis, chopped
1 cup sliced fresh mushrooms
*Preparation:*

Cook onion until tender. Stir in garlic, tomatoes, wine, carrots, parsley, basil, sugar, and salt. Bring sauce to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer, uncovered, for 1 hour, stirring frequently. Add sliced zucchini, mushrooms, and turkery; cook until sauce is thick, about 20 minutes longer.

Makes 5 servings.

Thank you!


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Looks like a good basic sauce. I like that it has all those vegs. I once worked on a cookbook that said, "To get children to eat more vegetables, hide them in spaghetti sauce." Hide what -- the children? :lol:

It's okay to use a little oil to cook the turkey, onion, and garlic right in the pot -- even just a teaspoon or two will help them brown and bring out more flavor, and hardly add any fat to the finished sauce. Olive is best, but any will work. (Changed to account for the turkey; you may as well cook it in the sauce pot, because that way you'll keep the juices. If you use lean turkey, it won't add much fat anyway.)

Use whatever red wine you have around, as long as it's drinkable. :beer:

If you use the fresh herbs, don't add them until the very end; all that long cooking will reduce the bright flavor you get from them. But if you want to add dried basil, use a little less than 2 tablespoons and add it when the recipe says. If you like oregano, sure, add some, too: add dried early, fresh at the end (the amount is up to you; the rule of thumb is three times as much fresh as dried, so you could add 1 teaspoon dried or 1 tablespoon fresh, for example). As for the parsley: don't use dried, it has no flavor. Just use fresh, and add it at the end.

Only add the sugar at the end if the sauce tastes too tart to you. Decent tomatoes don't need sugar, and the carrots will add sweetness. And use the best canned tomatoes you can. You could use whole tomatoes instead, just chop them up a bit before you add them. (You can squish them with your hands, lots of fun! :lol

Don't use tomato sauce instead, but if you want to add a small can of tomato paste, thin it with a little water to make it easier to mix in. It will make for a thicker, more tomato-y sauce. But it also has a tendency to burn, so keep the sauce on a low flame and stir it often.

Hope this helps!


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Yeah, pretty much what Suzanne said. Except that if adding tomato sauce I would drop the tomatoes down to one can. I also think that between the tomatoes and the wine there's enough liquid so you don't have to thin-down the sauce. 

I'm not big on the idea of cooking onions in a dry pan. Even a thin film of oil will help, and won't add much in the way of calories. Consider using spray olive oil to just moisten the pan. 

Just as an aside: While I applaud your desire to eat healthy it's easy to get carried away with the concept. Your body actually needs some fats and oils. The secret is to just not go overboard. With nutrition, as with most things, the secret is balance and moderation.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks, a lot of great advice!

I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to herbs (and cooking). It strikes as a bit odd to simmer a sauce for an hour, then wait till the last couple of minutes to add herbs. It seems like the herbs would be "raw" and that their "flavors wouldn't be thoroughly integrated with the sauce", or something like that. 

Generally, do sauces turn out "better" (more flavorful?) if I simmer for hours with dried herbs or add fresh herbs at the end? Also, is it an option to do both? To cook with dried herbs AND to add some fresh at the end?


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks, I do use the olive oil spray (I'm aware this is just oil, but its easier to use less when using spray). Also, I'm aware of the need for dietary fats and get plenty of it from good sources like nuts and raw oils, but cooked olive oil is actually a poor source of dietary fat and a good way to unintentionally add calories (and flavor) to a meal.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I'd say, use a little oil for the onion.
Fry the garlic with the onion to release flavor. 
Turkey is really weird in tomato sauce, and if you don;t want to use beef or pork why do you need meat at all? If yuou have good tomatoes, the sauce will be good. 
If you like herbs, be VERY subtle, and generally, i would choose one. 
I donl;t like basil cooked, it changes flavor - it;s nice added fresh on top of the pasta once you've mixed the sauce into it. 
I like to put the parmigiano directly on the hot, drained pasta, and then add the sauce and mix. It makes it melt and i think it;s tastier. .
If you use herbs, go very light, esp origano, which is not so used in italy as everyone thinks. 
Tomato paste is used by the teaspoon, with water, when you have no tomatoes. Don;t use it, and certainly not by the can. 
No need for tomato sauce if you have good tomatoes. 
Just my two cents, of course, you should follow your taste, and make it the way you like it.


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## bluedogz (Oct 11, 2006)

I have to ask, isn't this splitting the hair a little bit? How many calories can a tablespoon or two of olive oil add? (I know, Blue, go read the bottle, but I'm at work now.)

If the diner is on such a calorie-restricted diet that this makes a difference, is pasta the best meal choice?


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Of course this is true. And I certainly didn't make this post to flaunt my overly restricted diet. But, two tablespoons of olive oil = 240 cals / 5 servings = 48 cals a serving. Which isn't a lot, but it does matter when trying to keep meals under 400 calories.

Also, I use Carba-Nada Fettucine, a low cal, high fiber, high protein, pasta alternative.


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## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

Firstly...Turkey? It has a "taste" in a tomato sauce I and others find odd. Why not use free range chicken. Doesnt have to be breast meat...In a decent bird the thighs are tastier and far cheaper.
Secondly ...I agree with Siduri and saute the garlic with the onions...It needs it

Then, I'm thinking why are you simmering for hours? 25 mins is plenty. Dried oregano is one of the dried goodies. IMPO dried basil is a definite no-no. Add fresh along with chopped parsley or chervil towards the end.

Unless you are using free range turkey you can pretty much cancel out the health benefits of using turkey. Mass produced, like chickens, they are sickly creatures that do you no good.

If using tinned tomatoes, instead of adding sugar i use a splash of sweet chilli sauce for background kick.

Ps. As Suzanne says, use a drinkable wine, but add it to the onions and garlic and reduce to a tbsp.

PPs. welcome to the forum BTW


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks! lots of good advice. 

Yes, I do saute the garlic with onions, I forgot to put that in the recipe.

I do use organic, free range ground turkey. I agree, the taste isn't ideal. Maybe ground chicken breast would be better?

I simmered for an hour because I didn't think the wine/sauce had thickened enough after 25 mins, but I might be wrong about that. I like the idea of dried oregano at the beginning and fresh basil/parsley at the end. 2 questions: how much oregano should I use? and how long should the sauce simmer after adding the fresh herbs?

I'm not familiar with sweet chili sauce. Any particular brand or product that I should look for? about how much is a "splash"?

So I reduce the wine prior to adding the tomatoes? I assume this is why simmering should take 25 mins, instead of an hour?


Thanks!


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I don't like carrots in this kind of sauce - I feel it adds too much sweetness. I also think that any Italian sauce with tomatoes cries out for olive oil. 

I also add a splosh of Worcester sauce - but Bughut's sweet chili is an interesting idea I may have to try!

I agree that minced turkey isn't really a favourite - in fact, I've only tried it a couple of times because I didn't like the taste. Even minced chicken isn't that great.

A main meal of 400 calories seems a little mean to me - and believe me, I watch everything I eat!


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## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

Hey Ishbel,
I _always_ add Worcestershire sauce too and plenty of it. ie. If you think you've added enough, add a wee bit more.
I add carrots to bolognese just for the bite and the texture. I aso add baby spinach sometimes, once ive turned the heat off.

InAwe, Add the fresh herbs once you turn the heat off. As you're gathering plates and heating them, thats plenty of time for them to do their work. BTW Parsley stalks added early will give great flavour. Just mind and take them out.

Chili sauce can be a very personal thing. We use Linghams. It's Malaysian. I use garlic and chili favour, OH prefers the basic recipe. Dont know if you get it in the US. Sweet chilli suace is readily available in the supermarket. just go with the one you prefer

Correct with the wine reduction


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

It's funny how a simple recipe like tomato sauce can be interpreted in so many ways. Some people cook for hours, some only a few minutes. Some swear by fresh herbs, while others use dried. Some add carrots, others scoff at the idea. And some crazies even add worchestershire sauce!!!  :lol::lol: Personally, like my sauces many ways, depending on my mood and the weather. During summer I tend to make short cooked sauces using fresh herbs. These sauces are bright and full of fresh flavors of tomatoes and herbs, but in winter I like the hearty depth of a long simmered sauce. Sure the bright, fresh flavor of the tomatoes is lost, but it is replaced by a wonderful depth that short cooked sauces can't achieve.

As for the ground turkey, why do you add it? Is it for the the texture? If so then consider grinding or finely mincing mushrooms, especially portobello mushrooms and adding it when you cook your onions. It provides a great texture and much better flavor than the ground turkey.


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## kirstens (Jul 3, 2009)

I would add a little bit of fresh grated nutmeg. Also instead of the sugar, try brown sugar. 
Fresh oregano is a lot stronger than dried. I use dried oregano and bay leaves. Then at the end, add fresh basil.
I've heard of carrots in a sauce. I personally like onion and celery, minus the carrot.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thank you for all the replies! Lots of very helpful information,

My specific dietary goals are such that I eat 5 400ish calorie meals a day, all of which must be significant sources of protein. I might cave and substitute 97/3 ground beef for turkey. 

I've never used bay leaves. How many should I use and should I add them at the beginning or end of simmering? Also, any reason I can't use onion, celery, and carrots? If not, how much celery? Also, should I saute the celery with the onions prior to doing the red wine reduction?

Thanks again!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I personally don't see much way of making a tomato sauce without some olive oil but hey whatever floats your boat. Speaking from experience it's a surefire way to scorch your veggies and carbon is not part of my healthy diet. You may consider using a little vegetable broth to sautee your veggies in. They'll come out kind of braised but it's better than scorched.

If you must use a protein and it must be turkey I would suggest browning and cooking through the meat first. Season with salt/pepper and set aside to add to the sauce later. Taste and texture wise I'd leave it out and replace it with eggplant. 

Then begin sweating out your veggies. All veggies are welcome, celery included. I sautee the veggies adding them in this order:

Onions & carrots
Garlic and celery
Zucchini
Mushrooms

Then deglaze with the wine. Add the tomatoes and you're off to making a sauce.

If you want to add even more depth of flavor you could try roasting your diced tomatoes before you add them to the sauce. You can add some canned tomatoes but be careful of the ingredients, they are often loaded with High fructose corn syrup. I don't care for carrots in my sauce but if you use them be aware that they will add lots of sweetness which means sugar will not be necessary.

Sometimes I have added a small can of low sodium V8 to my sauces just to be different. 

Fresh herbs are delicate. Their leaves contain essential oils that are released with heat. If they stay in the sauce for a long period of time their flavor will diminish drastically and may start to become bitter. Cooks like to add fresh herbs at the end of cooking because that's when they will be most fragrant and retain their beautiful color. It's also nice to have flavors that are both complex from long cooking times and exude fragrant freshness.

Bay leaves are dry, and dry aromatics are put in at the beginning of cooking time - it takes a long time to draw out their flavors as opposed to fresh herbs which release them at the slightest hint of heat. Put it in when you put in the tomatoes and remove the bay leaf before you serve the sauce - they are not edible.

Depending on your tomatoes the sauce could take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour. Taste as you're cooking. Don't overcook the tomatoes if it's not necessary as with longer cooking you gradually lose their nutritional benefits.

Take the sauce off the heat and let it sit for at least 1/2 hour before you serve it. I've never heard of recipes calling for cooling a sauce but in my experience the longer it cools the more the flavors develop. Remember to make enough to freeze for later use - might as well since you'll be putting in all that work.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thank you for the detailed advice.

-I find that if I use medium-low heat, and a bit of olive oil spray, the veggies don't scorch. But I like the idea of vegetable broth instead of the spray.

-Should I be concerned about thoroughly cooking the veggies prior to simmering in the sauce? Will they get overly "mushy"?


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## jibaro (Aug 26, 2009)

sambal oolek belongs in every kitchen- it is chili paste, but not sweet- ground chiles, vinegar, and salt

a half teaspoon will brighten up every dish and enhance the flavor of the ingredients instead of masking it, like herbs tend to


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

InAwe, to discover just how quickly fresh herbs give up their goodness, take a sprig of any fresh herb. Smell it. Then rub a few leaves between your palms and smell again.

You'll immediately note the difference.

Heat does the same thing. So by adding fresh herbs at the end (often when you've actually finished cooking) the residual heat of the dish is all it takes to release the flavors.

Long cooking, as others have noted, can actually turn them bitter.

So, the rule of them is that you add spices and dried herbs early, and fresh herbs at the end. 

Generally speaking, dried herbs are stonger tasting than fresh. So you use them on a 1:3 basis. That is, 1 teaspoon of dried equals 3 teaspoons (1 tablespoon) of fresh. However, not all herbs dry well, from a culinary standpoint. Dried parsley, for instance, add nothing to a dish. And dried basil has a completely different flavor (some say objectional, in fact) then fresh. 

As to amounts, it's really a matter of experimenting to discover how much of a particular herb appeals to your tastebuds. There are no hard and fast rules for this.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

So, I'm going to try summarize all the great advice into a new recipe:

I'm still not sure what to do about meat. I'm concerned about the fattyness of chicken thighs, I'll probably go with shredded chicken breast.

Also, should I season the vegetables with salt and pepper?

1.25 lbs chicken breast, cooked and shredded
10 oz shredded carrots
2 medium onions, chopped
3 stalks celery, diced (is this enough?)
3 zucchinis, chopped
1 cup sliced fresh mushrooms
5 cloves garlic, crushed and minced
2 28oz cans diced tomatoes
3/4 cup dry red wine
2 tablespoons oregano (arbitrary amount)
3 Bay leafs (arbitrary amount)
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon chili paste (sambal oolek, if i can find it)
1/4 cup chopped fresh parsley
1/3 cup chopped fresh basil

Steps:

-Heat a bit of vegetable broth in a pan. 
-Add onions and carrots, saute about 5 minutes.
-Add garlic and celery, saute about 3 minutes.
-Add zucchini, saute about 2 minutes.
-Add mushrooms, saute about 2 minutes.
-Add wine, reduce to about 1 tablespoon
-Add chicken, tomatoes, chili paste, salt, bay leafs, and oregano. Bring to a boil.
-Reduce heat and simmer for about 30 minutes
-Add parsley and basil after done simmering.

Makes 5 servings.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

With all of the additions, it will serve more than 5 now. And you'll lneed to adjust seasonings again to account for the added bulk of food.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

any suggestions on seasoning adjustments?


I think the only subtraction is sugar. 
The only additions are chili paste, celery, oregano, and bay leaves.
And the other changes are the substitution of shredded chicken for turkey, the use of vegetable broth in sauteing, and the moving of the fresh herbs to the end of the cooking.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

You've got 3 quarts of ingredients there. Even with reduction in simmering, that will feed more people as a pasta sauce than just 5. That's about 3 cups of sauce per person as written.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

yeah, i'll add up calories to determine number of servings. based on the updated recipe, do you think it will be reasonably seasoned?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

You're talking 2 tbls of _dry _oregano?

That might be a bit much, as dry oregano can be pretty intrusive stuff. I'd cut it at least in half, the first time you actually make the sauce. Then you can make any adjustments later on.

A little salt & pepper never hurts. But overall you've got plenty of aromatics between the carrots, onions, celery and garlic, plus the herbs and chili sauce. So I don't think you'll be lacking in flavor.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks, will do.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I probably "missed something", but I'm curious as to how you "sauté" something in vegetable broth?

You might be able to "steam" something or even "boil" something but as long as you're using a "water based liquid", the temperature will NEVER exceed 212°F (100°C) and that is definitely not hot enough to "sauté" anything!

Even if you used, oh, 3 Tablespoons of oil for sautéing and the recipe yields 3 quarts, you'd end up with, at most, 3/4 teaspoon of oil per cup of sauce or right at 2% fat and, IMHO, a far better tasting sauce. If you drained the sautéed vegetables, you could cut it to less than 1%, well below the RDA for fat.

Personally, I thing you will be unhappy with the turkey breast unless you're simply looking to add "protein" without regards to taste or texture. You might be better off using TVP, but that's just me


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

You're right it's technically impossible to sautee anything in a broth, but many people I know who are on extreme diets do this. The key is to only have enough broth to barely cover the bottom so that it evaporates quickly and acts as a shield so that the ingredients don't scorch on the bottom. Hopefully you will take our advice and add at least a spritz of olive oil.

I think if you want to include protein in this dish the best way would be to grill a chicken breast and then serve it sliced on top of the sauce on your plate. Chicken breast can get very tough if you cook it twice so you may not want to throw it into the sauce later.

All in all you'll enjoy your sauce if you go about it sensibly. Most often it's the process that builds flavors, not the ingredients.

The salt is low - I don't measure my salt but I do season between most steps. Everytime you add an ingredient you must adjust the salt. The only way to do this accurately is to taste the sauce frequently.

You'll have plenty of left overs for your freezer.


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## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

Onion, celery and carrots (+garlic if you want it, say 1 clove minced) all in together. Typical mix, for a good reason. It tastes good  If you are cooking for 4, say 1 bay leaf, after you have lightly sauteed the first vegetables.

Then the dried oregano - for 4 - half a teaspoon (I aslo add smoked paprika, just a shake or 3). Let it cook a little. Also some S&P.
Now, your turkey mince, just brown it. Mash it all down.
Next, your red wine (I prefer a shiraz), let it cook and bubble away for a bit. Tsp of sugar also.

Tomatoes in their juices - diced & tinned is really handy. Stir - add some water if it seems too dry. Cover.

Cook down for half an hour...if its still too wet, simmer a while with lid off, once to your favorite consistency, heat off, then add any fresh cut herbs, serve and enjoy.


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## jibaro (Aug 26, 2009)

as far as the oregano, even cut in half that is a huge amount

a pinch is more like it


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

>but I'm curious as to how you "sauté" something in vegetable broth?<

You've touched on one of my pet peeves, Pete, one I've harped on before.

The healthy cooking proponents, particularly the low-fat ones, started this years ago. "Saute in a little stock---or wine---or water...." they say, so as to avoid oils. 

Well, the fact is, when you cook in liquid other than oil you are, variously, steaming, poaching, boiling, braising, simmering, etc. But you most assuredly are not sauteing. 

This is just part of the continual dumbing down of culinary terms, and pretty soon none of us will be communicating at all.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

This sounds like cleaning out the fridge type concoction(great for the kids). Mushrooms at the end without saute? Not for paying customers sorry.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Looking back I see I was pretty looped by my migraine last night. Please ignore my earlier postings.:crazy:


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

after counting nutritional facts, I've decided to add 1.5T olive oil:


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

i'm with you, and would tend not to use it at all. 

To add protein, you can add grated cheese on top,. and that completes the protein of the pasta, making it more or less like a meat dish. 
Chicken or turkey, I don;t know, it just seems weird in a pasta sauce.

If you like a very herby taste, and some extra protein, then you could do a sauce "agli odori di bosco" (with the scents of the woods or with the herbs of the woods - the words are interchangeable) - sautee a couple of onions slowly in a little oil with salt and lots of black pepper, then add a sprig of rosemary, one of thyme and a bay leaf. Sautee just briefly with the herbs. 
Add wine if you like, and boil down till syrupy. 
Then add the tomatoes. 
When cooked (at most half hour but if they;re good tomatoes, don;t ruin them, let them cook only ten min) mix with the pasta, and add some ricotta with the parmigiano. It turns a little pink, and the ricotta rounds out or smooths out the herby taste. 
But origano, really, too too strong. Save it for dishes that have more bite, like eggplants stuffed with wet bread, garlic, parsley, anchovies and black gaeta or greek type olives.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

If the recipe truely makes 3 quarts (12 cups) and you are serving 5, that's 2.4 cups (almost 20 ounces) of sauce per person, or about 4-6 times the normal serving.

If you double the pasta and the number of servings, the per serving figures become:

276 3.7 26.3 36.8/11


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

I have no idea the final volume of the sauce, nor is it really a factor, for me. My serving size is based on each serving being approximately 400 calories and having approximately 40 grams of protein. Serving volume is inconsequential, nutritionally.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Hm, not sure I grasp that, especially when calculating the nutritional content by dividing the recipe by the number of servings.

I understand your "target" of 400 calories per serving and thus you're looking for a recipe that has around 2,000 calories total but I'm fairly certain that the "volume" has some impact.

For example, I have a recipe for Minestrone Soup that totals 2,200 calories, so if I divide by 5 that's 440 calories per serving, however, that would make each serving a quart (4 cups) of soup!

My point is: your sauce recipe, excluding the pasta totals

1357 28 143 128/50

IF the sauce recipe does make 3 quarts (12 cups) (that's 2 cups 3 ounces if it is 5 serving) AND a reasonable serving of sauce is, what, 1 cup (personally, I would tend to say 1/2 cup), then the nutrition PER SERVING is"

116 2 11 10/4

And the nutrition per serving of pasta at 5 servings per 10 ounces is

140 1 12 24/6

then the combined nutrition per serving is:
256 3 23 34/10

Serving size is NOT irrelevent when calculating the nutrition per serving from the total nutrition of a recipe.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Most people wouldn't eat two cups of sauce. So yes, volume matters.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. 

I'm stating that a meal must be 400 calories and 40 grams of protein. I don't care how "large" or "small" it is, as long as it has proper quantity of calories and proteins. Therefore,"volume" or "size" are irrelevant, the only important factor is actual nutritional content.

*I should probably clarify that I'm cooking this for myself or for friends, not for any paying or overly discerning people


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

An Adult stomach has a small relaxed volume, less than an ounce. It can expand to hold comfortably a bit more than a quart (32 oz). It still has the capacity to hold more but that's the average. The healthy rule of thumb is that you should eat about as much volume as your fist a few times a day-- the 4-6 grazing meals often talked about.

These physical realities is why we're commenting about the volume of your serving. For a normal main course serving of pasta, the amount of sauce you want to serve turns it into a fairly large serving of essentially tomato noodle soup and is more than people will eat. So they won't be getting the nutrition you're looking to put in them.

There is a rather successful dieting plan based on large servings of high water-content meals called Volumetrics.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

This is entertaining.


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

I would like to clarify that I greatly appreciate all the advice I was given in this thread and am very impressed by the users of this forum. I am not trying to argue with anyone, just simply trying to justify my point. And my point is this:

My meal sizes are determined solely by nutritional content. If its possible to make a 400 calorie meal so massive that its hard to finish, thats spectacular. The goal is not to minimize calories, its to eat a very specific number of them. So, just because I could feel satisfied from a 260 calorie meal, doesn't mean thats what I should eat. 

I'm familiar with volumetrics. The low caloric density of foods like onions, celery, and carrots are what allows a typical high calorie meat like pasta and meat sauce to feel massive at only 400 calories.

Also, I'm not concerned about it being "soupy". It might be a bit low on pasta, but all the veggies and meat should keep it from being too high on liquid.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

So, if your "serving size" is so large that one can only eat 60% of the serving (240 calories versus 400 calories), that is a "good thing"?

I'm still confused, why would you intentionally create a serving that no one could comfortably consume? Would you not be defeating your goal of consuming 400 calories if all you could physically consume was 240 calories (60%) of the serving?


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## inaweofchefs (Aug 26, 2009)

well, I'm not sure if an unconsumable 400 calorie meal is a realistic possibility. a 400 calorie meal is generally fairly small. So, it is a good thing if I manage to make a thoroughly satisfying 400 calorie meal. obviously, it wouldn't be great to define a meal as 400 calories of oil and 2 gallons of water, this would be an example of an unconsumable 400 calorie meal. but that certainly isn't the case for the given recipe.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I can't see the point of getting an exact calorie count for a meal, but to each his own. I'm glad I don't make food under those kinds of restraints, but then again I might be missing something.


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

First: I see that I skipped a whole bunch of posts before starting this -- mostly the ones arguing about calorie counts and portion size and such. I'm glad I did, because that's not what IAOC was asking about. And *[moderator hat on]* please stop arguing about those issues. What works for one person does not necessary work for another, and each may be perfectly satisfied as thing are. So no attacks on each other's taste, please. [moderator hat off]

Now, to pick up where I meant to: I wouldn't add any bay leaves, but that's just because I don't much like the flavor. But if you like the flavor of bay leaf, go ahead and add one near the beginning (one might be enough; they're pretty strong), and don't forget to remove it before you serve the sauce -- it can be dangerous to eat because it doesn't break down in cooking and can stab your insides.

Celery? Sure, if you like it. Just sauté it with the onion, before you add the garlic. Again, I'm a big fan of lots of veg in spag sauce. And re the mushrooms: EdB put it a bit roughly. They will add much more flavor if you sauté them first, even with just a small spray of oil. Why? Same reason as sautéing the onion, garlic, and meat before you add them: browning (caramelization for the veg, Maillard reaction for the meat) adds flavor. And if you're not eating much at a time, you want as much flavor as you can pack into each meal.

How much oregano? As before, depends on your taste and the taste of those you're feeding. Try adding a small amount and work up to what you like.

Your thought about adding both dried herbs and fresh is good -- each will give a different version of its flavor. Try different combinations. Again, according to what pleases you and yours.

The reason for adding fresh herbs at the end is that it's the volatile oils in them that provide the flavor, and heat tends to dissipate those oils rapidly. OTOH, dried herbs are more concentrated (coz they have no water, duh :lol and need to be rehydrated in the cooking (that includes cooking with oil) before they give up their flavor. Some herbs lose too much in the drying process (such as parsley, as I mentioned before; also cilantro, chives, chervil, and [to some palates] tarragon) to be of any use.

The reason I said not to use commercial tomato sauce is that the extra cooking will do it no favor -- you will just have an overcooked sauce flavor within your otherwise acceptable sauce. But if you think the almost-finished sauce is still a little thin, instead of cooking it a lot longer, stir in a little tomato paste; it acts as a thickener.

On the meat question: 1) please do cook it first, not add it raw near the end; the flavor will be so much better; 2) why not just make the sauce vegetarian, with no meat at all? Then when you get ready to serve you can cook whatever meat you want, drain off any excess fat, and add the sauce to reheat it. I tend to make "basic" versions in large quantities that I portion out and then customize as the mood strikes me when it's mealtime. (I do that with sauces like this, meat stews, etc. so that I can add whatever other vegetables or spices or meats I want, to have a different, quick change.)


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

If I have said anything discouraging, I'm sorry.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I think that the point of eating, especially for a cooking forum like this, has to do with enjoyment. If food has to become a treatment or a cure or a medicine, it would lose any interest for pretty much anyone else on the forums. If it doesn;t matter if the sauce is way too much for the pasta, that means, to my mind, that it doesn;t matter if it tastes good or bad, as long as it fits a certain dietary prescription. So why ask a chef? Why ask a cook? Why ask a person who thinks food should, first of all, taste good?

I have a friend who is severely diabetic, insulin dependent, and has to watch everything. I of course will cook for her considering her needs. She cannot eat more than a certain amount of pasta. I would never even dream of giving her a big dish of pasta sauce with a few penne or rigatoni floating in it. It would be disgusting. I would (and do) feed her a small amount of wonderfully delicious pasta, and a nice dish of well-cooked vegetables and a small amount of tasty meat. She says when she eats at my house, her sugar level is great. So i must be doing something right. 

I'm a person who eats a lot of starch. Because i love starchy food, I feel very much for my friend who can;t indulge like i can. So, because of that, I make sure the few carbohydrates she eats are TASTY because if you can;t eat many, they shouldn;t be some concoction of some chemical laboratory, but should be good quality stuff, just less of it. Being that she can';t eat much of it, I feel all the more that any carbohydrate she eats had better be really really good.


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## fl italian (Mar 2, 2009)

I've read every post here and the only other, from what I can see, Italian that made notes to this is Siduri.

Here's my thoughts and the why...

When you brown your onion, garlic, celery and carrots.. brown them in the olive oil (your small amount should work) until they get golden, especially the carrots. This becomes the base for your sauce.

Next add the red wine and let is bubble until you detect a 'sweetness' to it. That's will indicate you've gotten rid of the alcohol and the tannins in the wine.

Use good tomatoes, San Marzano imports are the best, and let the sauce simmer.. salt/pepper(red) to take and your herbs use fresh at the end... basil, parsley and a small amount of oregano.. NO BAY LEAF!! If you use Bay Leaf, then no basil or oregano and you'd add lamb instead of turkey. Bay Leaf will make the sauce very sweet.

Speaking of sweet, I do add sugars to my sauce but I do it naturally... use a small handful of raisins. And as for simmering, my sauce simmers for 5 hours or more. I let it reduce down and I love having that aroma fill the house... coupled with bread for dipping periodically to 'test it'... I know you'll be limited there.

Vegetables, as they are going to cook fast, add during the last 30 minutes. They'll soak up the flavors easily.

One other note.. I'd drop the turkey as you're making a great marinara sauce with vegetables. You really don't need it and it'll take your calorie count down.

There's an Italian boy's point of view..

Good luck..

OH... one last thing... NO WORCESTERSHIRE.... that's sacrilegious!! It's like putting pineapple on a pizza!!


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## teaparty (Aug 30, 2009)

I suggest sauteing the garlic in a little olive oil first.
Then adding the other ingredients.

i don't believe the garlic cooks properly if you don't saute it, nor does it add the proper flavor. IMHO


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## fl italian (Mar 2, 2009)

Teaparty,

Exactly... just hammering home the point.. EVOO _*IS*_ needed.

Sorry, with all the postings, I must have missed your suggestion... mea culpa:crazy:


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## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

>OH... one last thing... NO WORCESTERSHIRE.... that's sacrilegious!! It's like putting pineapple on a pizza!!  <

Bit strong don't you think? 

BTW if you like pineapple on your pizza...good call... You could fill a substantial thread with folks pizza preferences too... Its all a matter of taste...no-one's wrong!


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Exactly, Bughut. I hate adding milk to a Bolognese sauce.... people tell me it's the classic cookery ingredient. Who cares? I don't like it!


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## fl italian (Mar 2, 2009)

Ishbel...

It's not milk to bolognese... it's cream.

FYI... to Italians we follow traditions as it's the way our mother's and grandmother's made it. 

Would you make changes to the way you make haggis or kidney pie? What we do is traditional same as you. Yes, it's personal taste but I pointed out what's traditional... as I said "to an Italian"...

Boy we need to discuss this over some Guinness and a wee dram :beer:!!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

We've been over this "tradition" thing before. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's good. And just because something is not traditional doesn't mean it's bad. I don't like milk in my bolognese either - and other traditional italians have told me it is milk, not cream by the way. What people do in their own homes is their own business. The OP wasn't asking for opinions of tradition anyway. 

The only thing we have all agreed on by the way is that the recipe is begging for oil, and that turkey is a baaaaad idea. Let's not get carried away trying to agree on anything else.


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

The first time I tried out a recipe using ground turkey, the recipe included nutmeg. Since then, the few times I've cooked something with ground turkey, I've used nutmeg because it goes really well with it, to my taste.


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## jibaro (Aug 26, 2009)

when sauteing onions as well, add the garlic toward the end- it needs less time than onion, and will get quite bitter


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## jibaro (Aug 26, 2009)

i'm an irish guy from boston, and i almost always use plain olive oil for cooking

to me, EVOO is for salads- its strong taste overwhelms most food when you cook with it, IMO

there are exceptions, but if you make a slow cooked "gravy" with extra virgin instead of mid grade olive oil, it will not come out as nice


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## jibaro (Aug 26, 2009)

nutmeg is a good "secret ingredient"

so are juniper berries


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I moved a few months ago from the central Oregon desert to western Oregon. Back there I had a huge juniper tree in my back yard. I wish that I had at least picked some of those berries and put them in vinegar or dried them, and then I would have that now.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

*pummarola*
I don';t know why i didn;t think of this. It's exceptionally good.

You don;t need to fry anything for this sauce, and if (and only if) you can get really good fresh ingredients, it is amazingly good. Just add parmigiano and it will be good protein, and no added oils.

fresh really good red tomatoes
A stalk of celery 
a carrot
An onion
some garlic

Cut up the tomatoes roughly (even just in half) so the juices can run. 
Throw in a pot (heavy bottom is better, so it won;t burn as easily)
add the rest of the ingredients just cut roughly (one inch pieces are fine)
Put on the fire and let it cook till the vegetables are just soft. 
Using an immersion blender (or letting it cool a little, use a regular blender; or use a food mill with the crank) blend the sauce but not to a smooth velvet, just roughly, so there are no more big pieces of vegetable and it;s evenly ground up.

Cook pasta al dente (real pasta, i hope).
Drain and immediately add a couple of handfuls of grated parmigiano.
Mix so it starts to melt, and add the sauce. Mix well. Serve with some fresh basil strewn on top.

This is very traditional in the summer, and is the way i make sauce when the tomatoes are too good to cover up with too many seasonings. Their flavor is enhanced by the mild non-fried vegetables. 
Do0n;t add any stronger herb than the basil, and you can do without that too, because this is a delicate flavor based on fresh ingredients at the peak of the season.

For me, it is improved by a blop of butter added to the sauce at the end, after it;s finished cooking, but then, what isn;t? But it's also good without it, and the parmigiano, treated this way (directly on the hot pasta BEFORE adding the sauce) kinds of makes up for it, it gets creamy.)


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