# Thinking about Shun knives but curious about other possibilities



## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

I've found this forum recently and there's a wealth of information that has been very enlightening. Basically I'm about to move on my own and start my own kitchen. Part that kitchen will be a nice set of knives. I cook almost every day so I've been itching to get knives with a good blades. By the way I apologize that this will be a bit long of a post, but I figure I my as well lay out all my thoughts to try and answer any questions people may have.

My brother has a Shun 6" chef knife which so far has been the best knife I've tried. I've tried Wustof, but I liked the Shun more. As I'm sure many people were, I was turned onto Shun by Alton Brown. So I've basically been sold on the idea of getting Japanese knives. One attractive feature of the Shun brand to me is their lifetime sharpening.

Anyways, after reading through this forum a bit it sounds like there are many other alternatives to Shun which may be nicer for the same price or not much more. Here is where I could use some guidance. I already know the style of knives I'd like, but I'm not very familier with the differences in steel and quality of the various brands. The Hattori FH series looks pretty interesting from what I've read and am looking to that series as a possibility.

Here are the knives I'm looking to buy along with a few notes....

Essential knives I'd like to get

- 8in chef knife (Maybe a 10in, but I've been using an 8 and I don't see much reason to go larger for now)

- bread knife 

- paring knife (I don't use these often, but they're nice to have around when the chef's knife is too large)

Less essential knives I'd like to get

- serrated utility (For tomatoes, but if the chef is sharp enough maybe I don't need this)

- santoku (I like slicing a lot, but this isn't a good for mincing and a chef knife slices fine for the most part)

- slicing (for fish mainly, sashimi or removing skin)

As another note, I'm left handed. Now, I've read several lefties on here that don't have problems with right handed knives, but when I tried a left handed knife it was a glorious experience so I'd like to get left-handed knives.

So the big question. What am I willing to spend. Currently, my budget is around $1000 for get all the knives I mentioned above from Shun. Not necessarily all at once, but my intention is to probably get all of those styles at some point. However, if a different brand which may be more expensive but higher quality I'm definitely interested. 

Thanks for reading all of this, I realize this post was rather long, but I figure the more research I can do that happier I'll be in the end!

Thanks for any advice!

Best,

Blair


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

Welcome Blair - I started out with Shun classic 8" chef, santoku and paring.  I gave the santoku to my wife, sold the chef and kept the paring knife.  There are much better performing knives out there for less money and they will not give you the headaches that Shuns can especially with the VG10 - core.  They seem to over harden them and they are prone to chipping and can be a biotch to sharpen. 

Now for the question part -

Carbon, or stainless?

If you're going Japanese I'd get at least a 240mm knife.

Western handle or traditional Wa handle?

What kind of cutting board do you use?

How will you be touching up and sharpening your knives?

How will you be storing your knives?

There are lots of makers to choose from and I have knives from half dozen different ones + some good old USA carbon I've converted.


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks for the reply! I'll answer your questions the best I can.

Carbon, or stainless?

- Currently I'm thinking stainless, because it sounds like they're easier to maintain. On the other hand, based on what I've read on this forum the carbon knives are sharper but require more maintenance. Honestly I could go either way. I don't think the extra care would be a problem for me and I'm already very thorough in how I clean and maintain what I own.

If you're going Japanese I'd get at least a 240mm knife.

- Also a common suggestion I've been reading. I guess I've just never used a knife that large, so honestly I'm a bit nervous haha. It seems like the larger knife may making mincing more difficult, but I've never tried one so that may not be true.

Western handle or traditional Wa handle?

- Western. Maybe I'll get a traditional Wa handled knife in the future, but not now.

What kind of cutting board do you use?

- I will be purchasing a hardwood end grain board in the near future. I'm looking at the Proteak 20x14x2.5 end grain board currently, but am open to suggestions.

How will you be touching up and sharpening your knives?

- I haven't done much knife sharpening in the past, which was one reason I was thinking about the Shuns with their free life-time sharpening service. If I don't get Shuns I'll get some wet stones. Regardless, I'll get a honing steel.

How will you be storing your knives?

- Currently I'd like to get an in-drawer knife storage tray. I think blocks take up a lot of counter space and the in-drawer tray would be easier to clean if I ever need to.


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## himself (Jan 7, 2013)

brconner said:


> What kind of cutting board do you use?
> 
> - I will be purchasing a hardwood end grain board in the near future. I'm looking at the Proteak 20x14x2.5 end grain board currently, but am open to suggestions.


Maple, cherry or birch would be better choices.


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

I'll look into them. Any particular cutting board suggestions? or knife ones for that matter?

Also, the more I think about it I'd like stainless knives unless I'm shown a convincing reason to go carbon. The more I read about the carbon ones the more work it looks like and while I could do that, I'd rather not have to spend too much time on it if its not worth the additional function since I'm only cooking at home.


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## agfromdc (Feb 12, 2013)

Hey. I'm fairly new here as well. I can tell you that if you want to look into getting nice knives and are ok with spending Shun money, you should check out Korin. They can sharpen knives for the left-handed though it may be a bit extra. They have great choices, all of them easliy on par with Shun. They sell some of the finest pro knives available. Mark at Chef Knives to Go is really helpful too and has nice prices for a large selection for sure. He has his own line of knives that I'm told are outstanding. The guys at Japanese Chef Knives are cool too and have brands that you might not see elsewhere. I'm in the process of upgrading my kit, so I can't be of much help when it comes to specifically having clear recommendations for chef and paring knives, but I do know that my Tojiro ITK bread knife is the outright favorite bread knife of just about every cook in a kitchen filled with about 30 cooks, most of them knowing a good knife when they use one. Nothing but raves on that one...Good luck with the rest...


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## agfromdc (Feb 12, 2013)

PS.: I can say that I used Shun knives exclusively at my overnight gig and I was never really that impressed. Definitley don't like how fragile they seem to be. You can surely find something more durable than that in the same price range, but if you like Shuns, you like Shuns and they will get the job done in style....


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks AGfromDC! I'll definitely check out that bread knife you suggested. I figure if I get the Shuns I'll be happy with them since they're significantly better than what I have currently, but if I can spend less for the same quality or spend the same for higher quality I certainly wouldn't mind!


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

You're mostly asking brand questions, not fundamental ones, so I don't have all that much to say. Unlike some folks here, I haven't handled a huge number of knives enough that I could compare knowledgeably. But a few underlying questions arise.

In no particular order:

1. 8" is good, but if using a knife as light as any of these Japanese ones are, I would encourage a 10" if countertop real estate is not drastically threatened. If you expect to be working at a code-standard US countertop in anything but a teeny unrefurbished galley kitchen in an old urban apartment, I'd say go 10": you will never look back.

2. If you are seriously interested in Shun's lifetime sharpening, I take it you don't care much for the idea of learning to do it yourself. That's a pity, because it dramatically limits your options. Still, if that's what works for you, I would say avoid a yanagiba or any single-beveled knife, as these need regular maintenance. For slicing, a long sujibiki or slicer is your best bet. 300mm is ideal, but as a home user you could get away with 270.

3. If your chef's knife is not sharp enough to slice an overripe tomato cleanly, it is dull. Don't buy a serrated tomato knife. I also wouldn't waste money on an expensive paring knife, as these are much of a muchness.

4. I am very much of the opinion that the santoku has no place in a kitchen that already has a chef's knife. The santoku does nothing as well. If you have trouble mincing with your chef's knife, you need practice, not another knife. Watch Jacques Pepin mince garlic and practice.

5. Carbon and stainless are no longer straightforward propositions. It depends which steel, how tempered, in which knife. Stainless is easer to care for and harder to sharpen. In a middle price range or upwards, probably you get a hair more bang for your buck with carbon.

6. Shuns sometimes get slammed out of snobbishness, sometimes for better reasons. In essence, for the price, you can get unquestionably better Japanese knives. Should that matter to you? I'd say no, not if you aren't planning to do your own sharpening. And don't let anyone tell you that's not OK, either: Shuns are good knives, and they continue to do good business because their knives do compare favorably against most of the international big-name brands. And off the top of my head, I can't think of someone better with that sharpening guarantee.


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks Chris! Here are my responses to your statements. Lots of good stuff to think about. I'll just number my responses according to yours.

1. I don't think my countertop real estate will be drastically threatened so 10" is an option. Honestly I hadn't thought about Japanese knives being less weight which is a good argument to get a larger knife to keep a little more weight. That's basically convinced me to the 10" so thank you for bringing that up.

2. I don't have a problem with learning how to sharpen. It's more so that since I haven't done it before I'm afraid that if I get a knife that I need to do my own sharpening and I happen to suck at that well I'm kind of screwed haha. It sounds like there are some good DVDs on sharpening kitchen knives, so I feel pretty confident that I could learn it with some practice. I'm just nervous about ruining an expensive knife really.

3. I've been slowly convinced to this thought as well on the serrated tomato knife and am no longer looking for one. As for the paring knife, I don't use them very often but they are handy.

4. I don't have any problems mincing with a chef knife. What I find attractive about the santoku knives if the flatter cutting edge. I suppose if I get the 10" chef knife though I would already have that quality in the chef and still be able to rock back and forth pretty easily. You're really selling the idea of a 10" chef knife to me!

5. That's interesting that I would get more bang for my buck with carbon. I guess for me to decide carbon or stainless it really depends how much more maintenance is required. If it is really just making sure I dry the knife quickly and don't let it stay wet I wouldn't mind that, but I imagine there's more than that. Maybe someone could give me an overview of the maintenance required for carbon steel knives?

6. That's whats really attractive about the Shun's too me. Lets say there's a worst case scenario (within reason) and I get a big chip or break off the tip of the knife, how difficult is that to fix or how expensive to repair? 

Thank you again for the replies! This is really helpful.


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## chrisclemens10 (Jan 10, 2013)

My favourite is my MAC 8" French knife. Perfect balance and comfortable to use.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

brconner said:


> Thanks Chris! Here are my responses to your statements. Lots of good stuff to think about. I'll just number my responses according to yours.
> 
> 1. I don't think my countertop real estate will be drastically threatened so 10" is an option. Honestly I hadn't thought about Japanese knives being less weight which is a good argument to get a larger knife to keep a little more weight. That's basically convinced me to the 10" so thank you for bringing that up.
> 
> ...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

+1 to everything Chris said, plus a little clarification and a little food for thought on the way to getting specific about recommendations.

_Just to clarify:_

Nearly all Shun chef's knives have German profiles; and in the case of the Onion/Kershaw designs (includes the Classic, the Onion, and quite a few more) the profile leans towards the extreme because the point is high. Typically, a higher point means more belly and Shuns are no exception.

There are three basic types of chopping actions. The two you hear about most often are "rock chopping," and "push cutting." The third is the classic, silent, and oh so very French, which doesn't have an official name, but I call the "_guillotine and glide_," and is more commonly called "gliding action." German profile knives are especially suited to rock chopping; very flat traditional Japanese shapes like the usuba are especially suited to push cutting; while the French does the guillotine and glide like nobody's business. Also, the French profile is a little more adaptable to both rock chopping and push cutting than German or very flat profiles.

It's tempting to make too much of this, so bear in mind that it's one of those "on the one hand... but on the other hand" types of things. On the one hand, any given type of knife can perform any of the actions well as long as the user has the skills and the desire. On the other hand, certain profiles do tend to promote certain actions and its as natural to find yourself adapting your style to the knife as it is to force the knife into your style.

Rock chopping a German profile is a way of transferring a lot of power through the food and onto the board. That sounds like a good thing, but really isn't -- or at least isn't very important -- as long as you keep your knife sharp. So, as long as you keep your knife sharp (sensing a theme?), there's no real advantage to a German profile, but there are some draw backs, "handle pumping" for routine chopping, awkward hand positions for point work, and comparatively lousy agility.

At the end of the day, there's no superior profile. It's entirely a matter of style and 'druthers. But if someone who doesn't have an established style and wants to develop good knife skills asks for a recommendation, I almost always recommend away from German (including Shun) or Asian and towards French.

_Food for Thought:_

It's easy for me to just throw out a few brand names without providing much more information, but if you're into this stuff at all it's going to be of greater benefit if you learn enough about knives so that you can make your own, informed choices.

BDL


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks BDL! I hadn't heard of the "guillotine and glide" technique before. After reading you post, it sounds like that technique is easier on the knife, the food, and whoever is using the knife so I think I'd like to get a knife with a French profile and begin using that technique. While I still think a 10" knife is large, if that length is the optimal size for the French profile I'd like to go with that. 

It looks like my knife list is as follows...

- The Tojiro ITK Bread Knife (from what I've seen this thing get's rave reviews and its an excellent price. Thanks AGfromDC for the suggestions! Any other suggestions are welcome though.)

- Looking for 10" chef knife with French profile (I believe the Japanese version is called a gyuto?)

- Looking for a paring knife (chef knife has a significant priority over this though)

So I guess the main advice I need now is if the knife should be carbon or stainless. If the maintenance for carbon is as simple as Chris said, then I'm still interested in carbon as a possibility.

What are the advantages of carbon steel? From what I've gathered, they can be sharper than stainless because they're harder. Does that mean the carbon knives need to be sharpened more or less often? I think I read that they're easier to sharpen than stainless, but correct me if I'm wrong.

While I don't want to be lazy, I would rather have a knife that doesn't need to be sharpened as often. I don't have a problem honing a knife whenever I use it, but if I really need to sharpen the knife every week that's too much for me. 

Getting a very durable knife is my goal. My intuition tells me that stainless in the long run is more durable than the carbons, but since the carbons are harder maybe that isn't true. I would rather sharpen a knife less often even if it takes a little longer than sharpen a knife more often in less time. 

Thanks again for the help everyone!


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Notes from the peanut gallery:

1. I was apparently wrong about the Shun profiles. I am sure BDL is right about this: he's right about most things, but also he has actually compared scads of knives head to head, which I haven't. If the Shun is a German profile, I for one am against it. I agree with BDL: a really sharp knife wins over a rocked one any day.

2. The extremely straight edge of the usuba, which is the Japanese traditional professional's vegetable knife, is not "difficult" to rock -- if you do it, you'll chip the corners. Bad bad bad, as the thing is a b&*$h to fix.

3. Carbon is not "sharper" or "harder" than stainless. On the whole, carbon takes an edge more easily and finely at a given price point. That is to say, $300 in carbon buys something you can do terrifying things with very easily using decent stones, where the same in stainless is a little trickier to bring to that level of shock and awe. Since you don't already have stones, this doesn't make all that much difference, because you can choose stones appropriate to the steel, and there are folks here like Phaedrus and BDL who can help you do that with stainless. At the outset, it's not realistic to think you're going to take any steel to that level anyway, and you may want to think twice about investing in that kind of quality initially.

Case in point. Suppose, like me, you decide to get a Masamoto KS 270 wa-gyuto. A thing of beauty and a joy forever. Carbon. Takes one of the most disturbing edges I have ever encountered, and I know others who agree. If you like carbon, Masamoto KS is glorious. Cost? About $350, I believe, plus shipping. Stones? Another $100 for basics, but you'll quickly want another $100 worth to bring it to perfection. Total outlay: $550. In 3-6 months, all things being equal, you will be confused by almost everything you used to think "sharp," because it now seems so horrendously dull.

Suppose instead you buy a MAC Pro 9.5" chef's knife. Stainless. Cost? About $185, give or take -- if you search you can probably get it for less. Stones? Again, about $100 for basics, and you'll end up spending more in the end. Total cost is going to be roughly $200 less than the Masamoto. Is MAC as good? Weeeelllll, it depends. Probably not quite, no, but we're really up in the nosebleed seats here, you know? I mean, nobody _needs_ any better than the MAC Pro. Would I take it over the Masamoto? Heck no, but can I honestly say that the $200 differential is worth it? Umm. Don't tell my wife, OK?

And so it goes.

In essence, if you are starting out on this, and don't want something exotic, and are willing to listen to experts like BDL about stones and stuff, you won't get out for less than $300... but you will be happy with it. (This isn't including a slicer, obviously.) And you can spend more if you want, and, if you're careful about it, you will get more for the money. But more of what?

With Masamoto KS, you get about the most fun-to-sharpen carbon steel you'll likely encounter, and a freakishly sharp edge which can take more than you can give. Is that honestly worth it to you? If so, why? The difference between what a MAC can take, edge-wise, and anything you have ever experienced is like night and day.

Advice: decide on your price point, figure $100 for stones, and then figure out what's the very best you can get for the remainder. Carbon vs. stainless isn't the way to decide: they have ups and downs. Decide what you care about, and ignore the rest.

One last example: Some people get hot to trot about what the blade looks like, in various ways, or handles, or whatever. I'm not talking about silliness. Some people love the look of this or that knife, and that matters to them a lot. So, given that two knives are about the same functionally, and one looks better, they go for that. Me, I don't care at all. Masamoto knives aren't especially pretty, they just look like plain-Jane Japanese knives. I doubt anyone has said they patina beautifully. What's nice about them is exclusively function. Since I don't care about looks, that's how I gravitate, and I can scrape up the cash to make it happen. But you must decide what you like, because whatever you buy, you're likely to live with it for a long while.

So. Long-winded, but I generally am.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

One more thing, as Columbo used to say.

Durability and hardness aren't at all the same thing. Unfortunately, there is no absolute measure on durability: you have to go largely by anecdotal data, and even then it's going to depend on how you sharpen.

Since you do plan to hone often, and don't want to sharpen constantly, just be sure you sharpen your knife pretty much symmetrically. That is, grind it at the same angle on both sides. Most instructions in English on sharpening double-bevel knives encourage you to do this anyway, so that's no trouble. As an edge becomes increasingly asymmetrical, honing becomes less and less effective, and more and more likely to produce micro-chipping.

I am not aware of any decent Japanese chef's knife that, if sharpened symmetrically or close to it, would require weekly sharpening if you are not a total lunatic about freakish sharpness and don't use it constantly in a professional, high-production setting. I could be wrong about this, but if so, I wouldn't buy a knife that fit this description. To reference my previous examples, both the expensive carbon Masamoto KS and the mid-priced MAC stainless should behave impeccably in your situation.

So, once again, I have to tell you that this is unfortunately not a way to winnow down the choices. Sorry!


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Chris, your advice has been great and I don't mind how long winded it is either! I have plenty of time to research and discuss my options before actually buying the knife. I won't be purchasing a knife for at least two weeks and I may even wait up to a month so time isn't an issue for me right now. I'd rather be thorough now than regret my decision later.

For the chef knife I'm willing to go up to $300 as an absolute maximum. I'd prefer to spend between $150 and $250 though if possible for just the knife.

In general, I prefer the look of the western handle. So far from a looks perspective, my favorite is the Hattori FH series with the cocobolo handle. They have a very clean and elegant look which I really like. I love figured woods and cocobolo happens to be one of my favorites in general.

As for the traditional handles, I don't like how the handle doesn't flow into the blade like the western ones do usually. It seems like many of them have a "step" in the steel before it enters the handle. This isn'y always true though. For example (I'm just looking through the JCK site to find what I'm talking about) the JCK Kagayaki Aogami Super Series handles look great to me even though its not a western handle. The blade looks great as well, but I don't need a damascus pattern by any means. Its cool and I wouldn't mind if my knives had that, but it won't be a major part of the decision. The JCK Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan White Steel No. 1 Series handles I do no like. It has the "step" I mentioned in the steel before the handle. 

Honestly, while I like the western handle more than the traditional ones, if I can get a better knife with the traditional handle I'd still consider it. 

EDIT: After looking the JCK website a bit I've decided I'm absolutely open to the idea of a traditional style handle. I just prefer that the handles have a more finished look to them though. I could even get over the "step" thing I mentioned earlier if the quality if that much better. Honestly I have opinions about looks, but function is more important to me and eventually I'd get used to how a knife looks regardless of its style.


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## wobelix (Feb 18, 2013)

brconner said:


> As for the traditional handles, I don't like how the handle doesn't flow into the blade like the western ones do usually. It seems like many of them have a "step" in the steel before it enters the handle. This isn'y always true though. For example (I'm just looking through the JCK site to find what I'm talking about) the JCK Kagayaki Aogami Super Series handles look great to me even though its not a western handle. The blade looks great as well, but I don't need a damascus pattern by any means. Its cool and I wouldn't mind if my knives had that, but it won't be a major part of the decision. The JCK Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan White Steel No. 1 Series handles I do no like. It has the "step" I mentioned in the steel before the handle.


I noticed the same thing and do not like it either.

It's plain ugly.

Is there a reason for such a step ?

it looks like sloppiness, to be honest, but I'm sure that cannot be the case...

Is it the same philosophy as the 'finger rest' cut out of the blade ?

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=88980&photo=2&size=b

Which of course is a step further then the 'step'...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The "step" is called the_ machi. _It's a small, visible segue between the _emoto_ (neck of the blade) and _kakumaki_ (handle ferrule) as the blade transitions from neck to tang. It gives you some space and helps prevent you from cutting yourself on the heel or back* of the knife. It shows the maker (or whoever installs the handle) that the only the tang is going into the handle. It also helps the handle last longer by not carrying as much moisture from a wet blade into the handle as might happen otherwise, and by reducing the effects of the differential in expansion and contraction between handle and blade.

All of the high quality, wa-handled, western blade knives I can think of have a machi. That means that if it really bothers you, you're stuck with western, yo-handles... which would be a shame. Fortunately there are plenty of beautiful, yo-knives.

I'm not sure what that little cut out does on the Terayusu Fujiwara Denka No Hoto, other than force the user to either pinch the knife close to the spine or well forward of the kakumaki. While it might act sort of like a choil* in placing the hand, I don't see any practical value in it myself. By the way, this maker, Terayusu Fujiwara is not the same Fujiwara which makes the entry-level FKM, FKS, and FKH series.

*Note: Many people, including just about all kitchen knife hobbyists, erroneously refer to the back of a Japanese kitchen knife as the _choil _-- including Gator at the excellent zknives.com -- but that's incorrect. A choil is an indentation which helps make for a more secure grip. It can be stretched to mean the part of the back of the blade just in front of the finger guard (if there is a finger guard) because the outer swell of the finger guard makes the blade itself feel narrow. However, at some point, the meaning of words is determined more by usage than tradition and it seems likely that the term choil will come to mean the back of the blade, whether there's an indentation or not.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## brconner (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks BDL! I figured there was probably a reason for it since most of the high end knives have that feature. I can't argue with the logic behind it either.

After reading all of this extraordinary advice and some of my own research, here's what I'm looking at now. I just put it in alphabetical order, since I'm making a table in excel (I like to stay organized haha).

Requirements for other suggestions:

- Less than $300

- 50/50 bevel

- Is a gyuto 240mm

What I'd like to know about the following knives:

- Edge retention

- Chipping

- Sharpening/maintenance

- "Nimbleness"

My current list of contenders:

Brand Price SteelHardnessTojiro DP $99.95VG-1061-62Ryusen Tsuchime Damascus Series $218.00VG-10-Ryusen Blazen Series $291.00SG-262-63JCK Original KAGAYAKI CarboNext Series $128.00Honko Carbon59-61JCK Original KAGAYAKI Aogami Super Custom Damascus Series $288.00Aogami Super62-63JCK Original Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan Series $230.00White Steel #163JCK INAZUMA Damascus Series $139.00Sweden Steel60JCK Gekko Damascus Series $135.00VG-1060-61Hattori HD Series $213.00VG-1060-61Hattori Forums FH Series $255.00VG-10-


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## betowess (Feb 14, 2013)

I've enjoyed reading your thread...I know very little about Japanese knives, but there is a little hybrid chef-gyuto / santoku that I am seriously considering buying even though I don't really need it... Its not VG10 - which seems unpopular on this forum, and has a bit of the french curve. Best, its stainless (something it sounds like you prefer), its lightweight and not at all expensive, which is good for my budget.

Its the Fujiwara FKM Santoku which has a little over 7" blade (180mm) and 11.8 inches in over all length (300mm). It only costs $70 and has black Pakka wooden handles, with a nice bolster. I just like the looks of this knife and I think I want to steer clear of "clad' knives like the Tojiro DPs. I don't know why that is, but I have a feeling a clad knife is a bit more trouble to sharpen... But this is all guessing on my part and after a bunch of reading forum opinions. CktGo has it, not sure of the other places.  BTW, I think I read steer clear of the Fujiwara carbons - that might have been something BDL said, but not sure where I read that?

Almost forgot to add this, I recently ordered a nice little mahogany cutting board end grain from theboardsmith.com. I haven't received it yet, but they look nice and the price is right..

Lastly, I love my French K-Sabatier carbons, but Amazon is now sold out of them. They do have some of the K-Sabatier Stainless still. I imagine they are great stainless knives and the price is great (on Amazon from a reputable retailer named China Fair). But if interested in them, beware, there are knock off Sabatiers on line, the name Sabatier isn't  trademarked ... Good luck in your hunt.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_50/50 Bevel:_

Don't worry too much about this. As long as the knife has a "V" shaped edge, sharpened on both sides, you can change the symmetry to whatever you like. You can make the change gradually or all at once. You can also ask any number of knife stores to make the change to left handed or whatever symmetry you like. Most -- with the exception of Korin -- will have their sharpener(s) do whatever you like.

_Knives:_

For a lot of really good reasons, I'm not going to handicap every one of the knives on your list. Most of the knives on your list are san-mai. I dislike san-mai knives because they feel somewhat numb to me. However, that's a minority response -- you may or might not notice it, and more probably than not won't. FWIW, I'm not virgin when it comes to san-mai knives. In addition to using tons of knives owned by other people, I bought some Hiromoto AS (which I sold very quickly), and still have an 8" Ryusen Blazen which was given to me as a gift recently which I still have but haven't had much chance to use.

I also don't like heavily ornamented knives, especially (what I call) faux Damascus; again this is a personal reaction on my part and I don't expect you or anyone to share it. Because of my dislikes I can't give an unbiased analysis of those knives.

Of the san-mai knives on your, most have a VG-10 core. San-mai, VG-10 knives are more like another than not. All of them are somewhat chip prone. Of those, the Tojiro DP is the value leader. It's a pretty good knife but a lot of people don't like the handle, finding it too large, too boxy or both. In that entry-level price range, I think the Fujiwara FKM and Richmond Artifex are both better knives.

_You Listed Two "Single Steel" Knives:_

The _Kagayaki CarboNext_ is actually semi-stainless and not "carbon," at least as not as we generally use the term. It's another high-value knife. It has an adequate profile, reasonable F&F, a decent handle, and great edge properties. Unfortunately, you can't count on the knife coming with a good factory edge, and JCK's extra-cost sharpening has been extremely disappointing. If you aren't a good sharpener already, or know someone who can lay on an edge from jump street, I'd be careful of this knife. If you can sharpen, it's damn near unbeatable at the price. The Kikuichi TKC is very similar to the CarboNext, but costs a lot more, is better finished, and comes properly sharpened. It's made by Kikuichi and sold by CKtG, both of whom will provide better US support than JCK if there's a problem. If the extra hundred bucks doesn't mean that much to you, the TKC might be a better choice for you.

The _Hattori FH_ is an excellent knife in every respect, and the best VG-10 yo-gyuto on the market. Everyone I know who's had one really liked it. But everyone I know who had one sold it and moved on to something(s) more exotic and not VG-10. A few, but not all, expressed regret at not keeping the FH, but none have expressed regret for their new knives.

_Knife Stores:_

You seem to be choosing from JCK's stock exclusively. JCK is an excellent retailer but has some issues with after-sales support.

If you live in the US, you might want to consider buying from (in alphabetical order) Chef Knives To Go or Japanese Knife Imports. When it comes to customer service, including post-sales support, they are as good as it gets. CKtG has a very wide selection, JKI has a very well chosen selection.

From what I've heard A-Frames Tokyo and Epicurean Edge operate at the same level of excellence -- but I don't like their selections quite as much as I do CKtG's or JKI's, have never done business with either, and am opining on the basis of others' opinions.

Korin is another good retailer, but not quite as good as the four I mentioned in the previous two paragraphs. There are some other good places, but they're more in the way of sources for particular knives which aren't otherwise available.

_Knives In General:_

While it's important to enjoy how your knife looks, there are more important considerations in choosing a gyuto. The first steps in narrowing the choices down so that you can make a rational decision start by deciding how thin and light a knife you want, and what sort of profile you want. If that's not a better place than any to start handicapping the field, it's as good a place as any to begin a serious discussion about choosing your knife. You might want to start by asking questions.

_A Few Specific Starting Recommendations Just for Giggles: _

If you're looking for a quality, stainless 240mm wa-gyuto priced below $300, I'll recommend the _Gesshin Ginga_ (JKI); _Gesshin Uraku_ (JKI); _Konosuke HH_ (CKtG); and _Richmond Addict 2_ (CKtG). The Ginga and Konosuke are ultra thin and light "lasers," and are pretty much equivalent. The Uraku and Addict 2 are still thin and light, but not quite as thin and light; they're also practically equivalent, but the Gesshin has better finished blade faces. For the very little it's worth, I have a 270mm Konosuke HD (semi-stainless) gyuto and love it.

_Fujiwara FKM Santoku:_

No.

BDL


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## dreamwrx (Oct 30, 2012)

Just to make matters a little worse... I'm going to have to add another option that is pretty darn good in the 240mm Stainless Steel under $300 selection... Saikai Yusuke you can buy from ebay through bluewayjapan I personally have a Konosuke HH and I love as well as the Sakai Yusuke. The Sakai Yusuke is just as good as the Konosuke in fit & finish, profile, ootb sharpness.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

I'd say any one who is thinking JCK has any issues with after purchase support probably has never purchased from Koki. I've bought from Koki and give him very high marks. Any dealer can have an issue but of all of the dealers listed in this thread it's mighty rare.

JKI, Korin and JCK all offer service and support that should keep any one happy.

As far as cutting boards I'd avoid Birch. It's not "bad" compared to plastic, glass or bamboo etc but it's not nearly as nice as Maple, Walnut or Cherry. Buy one good board from Boardsmith or Michigan Maple Block, care for it and it will last a lifetime. Not a fan of Mahogany either which has nothing to do with any board maker but rather the current timber industry, unless of course your getting plantation grown Mahogany.

Like Chris I'm a fan of the Masamoto KS. If I had to live with one Gyuto I could stop right there and be a happy camper. The Sakai Yusuke from BluewayJapan is an excellent option as well. The JCK Kagayaki knives are just an excellent value. I have a WA Kagayaki in VG10 that still amazes me every time I use it. For $130 there's very little not to like. Same for the Carbonext.

However from my perspective deciding between SS and Carbon is a key factor. At least every bit as important as price. Carbon knives come with caveats that every buyer should understand before going that route. I rarely think Carbon is a great choice for some one starting out unless you are certain you want carbon. SS is just far easier to maintain for the average home cook.

I'm not a fan of Santokus but no ones opinion, including mine should stop you from getting one if that's what you like. Numerous professional Chef's are using them so you can be sure a Santoku will serve you well at home.

Dave


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"Food for Thought:It's easy for me to just throw out a few brand names without providing much more information, but if you're into this stuff at all it's going to be of greater benefit if you learn enough about knives so that you can make your own, informed choices. "

Great advice!


Seriously anyone looking at purchasing their first quality Japanese knife please read the above again! 

There are just too many options and price ranges etc to expect to find success in purchasing the best J knife for you based purely on recommendations alone. I mean one that you will be happy with long term etc.

Keep asking questions, and reading as much as you can until it all starts to make sense. Trust me when I tell you I feel your pain as its only a few short years since I was in a similar situation, and I vividly remember all the confusion created by the laundry list of prospects and suggestions. everyone wants to help but finding the time to review and get information on so many different knives that you initially can not understand the important differences of can be exhausting lol.

As an example I am now comfortable with saying that there is not a knife on your list that would be a disaster purchase, most all would be a big step up in performance over what many have used previous (Henckels Wusties etc) one used properly, and even the price leader Tojiro comes so sharp out of the box that many are awed etc. 

Not everyone here likes every choice etc, but I know many of the knives I ha e considered in the past are on the list, and some are still in consideration for the future. 

All this considered the best way IMHO to figure this out is to compare your skills, style, experience, needs, willingness to change, experience or expectations on sharpening, aesthetics, and budget to the various styles, materials, and options available. Then after you have this info or reduced list of knives (short list) you can start picking apart all the little things that make on e or another better suited to you.

I may have had it a little easier due to budget restraints and a preference in making a $100 mistake over $300 one, but honestly am still happy with my original purchase, and still have all the originals (Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM) except a santoku which I ended up using less and less) even after upgrading to superior and more expensive knives. 

An example is that much as the Konosuke HD Gyuto I now have is both superior to the original Fujiwara FKM and a total pleasure to use and even sharpen etc the FKM remains as an alternate since it is still a great cutter in its own rite etc and just too good a value to part with.

Also just to reinforce what's been said already. I had made western yo handles a part of my initial needs list, and now after using wa style I found I prefer the lighter overall weight and feel of the wa. Unless it is an add on for specific use or reason I would not go with anything less than 240mm on a gyuto, ane even question if I should have gone with 270mm.

Sharpening is also a big part of the equation, and though not as difficult as some make it sound it is a learning curve and a subject in and of itself, but also should have a bearing on your decision if you are 100% for against it. 

And lasting the Hattori FH was one of my initial favs as well and the HD too.


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## pirate-chef (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you all so much for this thread. i just have a few bits to imput i didnt see if they have been covered yet but its possible. As far as shun. the first knife i bought when i started culinary school was a 10 inch shun, i got very comfortable and thought it was perfect. about 2 years down the road i inherited a shun 8 inch and needless to say this was a few years ago and the 10 inch sits at home out of fear of catching someone with it and the extra size really has proven  to be too big in nearly every application. the edge has been wonderful until it starts to go then it is hell to get back compared to my globals or others. as i saw mentioned before the hardness is a bit too high so chipping etc can be a problem and i have seen this a number of times. after this being said i have found a good knife sharpener and still use my 8 inch for day to day prep, and switch o a global kind of usuba chef knife hubrid for service ( if there is no tip you cant break it off when it gets dropped... yes when not if i work around too many students) those are my thoughts on the knives although i can say my two favorites are my global flexible fish knife, and surprisingly a shun ken onion bread knife. the rolled edges instead of jagged typical bread knife style make it amazingly nice to cut nearly anything with you would be really surprised and since the utility knife seems to be a little brother i think it would be great to have. Also with shun they no longer sharpen for free as far as i know, and when they did i think it took forever.


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## betowess (Feb 14, 2013)

FWIW, I received my new Fujiwara FKM stainless Santoku that I recently ordered. Its only a 180mm blade (~ 7 inches) and weighs in at 5.9 oz which has enough heft for my liking. Pretty darn sharp out of the box. The fit and finish was excellent (not perfect)...  I did a little extra rounding of the edges on the butt of the Pakka wood handles with some 400 grit wet dry sandpaper as the edges were a bit sharp there, where one's hand never goes. The blade looks like it has a 70/30 edge, right handed. I'm very pleased and was pleasantly surprised when I compared the edge profile to my 8" Sabatier carbon -as far as I can see they are pretty much identical.

The company where I bought them said its a hybrid of a chef's knife / vegetable cleaver... I would say that description is SPOT ON. For $70 bucks, a well made knife that will do it all and I'm fairly certain this will be my "go to knife". I don't hear many compliments about santoku knives on this forum, but these modern hybrids might as well be a chef's knife, at least by my amateur's observation...


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## romanticf16 (Dec 25, 2006)

I have five different Shun knives and my wife and I love then. I buy them only when they are on sale at Williams Sonoma or Sur La Table. If you look at the website of HappyChef, you will find they sell a set of 3 Damascus knives; Parring, 4" Santuku and 8" Chefs for $150 in a wooden Presentation Box. The quality appears to be about par with the Shun products in finish, sharpness  and feel. This set is a great bargain IMHO.I also have this set. I also have an old 10" carbon steel Case Chef's Knife that I use when bone splitting may be required, and a Wusdorf Serrated 10" Carving knife. My knives are mounted on two magnetic racks  on the side of one of our upper cabinets along side of our sink, where they can be easily reached, and also washed, dried and stored.


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## jeff coates (Mar 17, 2006)

I heard that they terminated their sharpening service about 3 years ago. SUCKS for those of us who ALREADY BOUGHT SHUN with that promise in place.

As for sharpening I use 3 systems    1. The EDGE PRO - APEX,  (owned for 20 years)

                                                     2. WICKED EDGE- EDGEPRO (owned for 5 years)  and,

                                                     3. SPYDERCO - SHARPMAKER  (owned less than 1 year)

They are all great systems and will serve a novice well. As you are looking to sharpen at acute angles, I would give the nod to the EDGE PRO. It will do the most acute angles of the three systems.

My 2 cents is make the choice on the blade you want - sharpening will come to you over time.  A very important factor (for me) which has not been given much discussion in this thread is how well / comfortable the grip is in your hand. If it does not match well with your hand  it does not matter how good the steel is.  You may find you enjoy a "lesser" knife" because it feels great in your hand.

GOOD LUCK !!!


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

"Free",cost postage and patience, Shun sharpening has been back for 6 months.

From this page...

http://shun.kaiusaltd.com/warranty


> [h2]FREE Sharpening is Back![/h2]
> Yes! Effective September 4, 2012, Kai USA Ltd. is once again sharpening your Shun cutlery for free, for as long as you own it. It's as simple as that. You pay for shipping, and our expert sharpening services are FREE. If you live in the area, you may also bring your Shun knives in for free sharpening. We can sharpen up to two knives while you wait; more than two and they will be ready for you to pick up the next day.
> [h3]We Heard You[/h3]
> Sharpening is back because we listened to you, our customers. Many of you were disappointed when we discontinued sharpening here at our Oregon facility. But we've improved our processes and now we're back-and ready to sharpen your Shuns on our amazing Japanese hiramae. This is the same type of large, horizontal sharpening wheel that was used to put the original precision edge on your Shuns in Japan.


Jim


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## johnh (Jul 5, 2009)

Hi brconner,

 I am a Pro Cook, not a Chef. Chefs cook and design menu items. Sous is the chef, the man.....Executive Chef...plans, orders, food cost ect. but went thru the Brigade system of france. I know my Exec Chef has lost all speed and quality of being a True Sous.

Cooks, cook and use their knives alot, when you hold a knife correctly, you will end up with a calleous on your index finger that will not go away...after so many blisters, over and over of repetitive use.

I Use a SHUN bread knife that I love....use every day.

I HAVE a SHUN 7' Santuko I use on presentation only use.. want it to stay sharp

I have a Pro Kimachi santuko I use...and it's pink...I get a ton of comments on this knife in the Kitchen.

I have Mercer chef that gets used and used and used.....my everyday knife. rubber handle, this knife is my work horse. and it gets tossed, when I am in a hurry and such nonsense. BUT, it has lasted, fits my hand, has a good weight, feel. And I respect it.....I see people in my kitchen go thru 30 knifes in a day......I use mine, wash, sanitize, and use it over and over and over. same thing...use, wash, sanitize. I do not need my knife to go thru the dish pit and just pick up a different knife.

I was sold on Alton's reccomendation of SHUN...and I purchased one of his angled knifes......I never use it. Want to BUY it?

I know a good chef also needs a good pocket knife.....for opening stuff. not searching for a paring knife. walking around kitchen. I suggest a Kershaw Leek....one pocket, one hand opening, lightning quick, closes with one hand. I have 3 of them....non serrated. one in black, one in Damascus, and one hybrid....

Point being, after reading this whole thing is: find a knife that YOU like, feel fast, safe and like. Who cares if it is a SHUN, Wuustof, Global...or even a Bob Kramer...or a junk one you find at Kohl's

hope this helps...

John


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## stltryng (Apr 19, 2016)

I've been using an 8" Shun Chef's knife for the past three years. It is a left-handed version so the bolster is angled to accommodate sitting with your left thumb in place.  I find the knife easy to keep sharp but I hone it regularly which I'm sure cuts down on the required sharpening.  I also use a Shun paring knife.  One thing that I did do (my own mis-use) was chip a small end piece off the Chef's knife.  Haven't bothered to have it repaired yet.  I wouldn't use the knife for cutting tomatoes.  The acid is very hard on the blades.   It might be wise to purchase a mid-range serrated knife for this purpose.  I also have a few small Opinel paring knives which are very reasonably priced.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

stltryng said:


> I've been using an 8" Shun Chef's knife for the past three years. It is a left-handed version so the bolster is angled to accommodate sitting with your left thumb in place. I find the knife easy to keep sharp but I hone it regularly which I'm sure cuts down on the required sharpening. I also use a Shun paring knife. One thing that I did do (my own mis-use) was chip a small end piece off the Chef's knife. Haven't bothered to have it repaired yet. I wouldn't use the knife for cutting tomatoes. *The acid is very hard on the blades. * It might be wise to purchase a mid-range serrated knife for this purpose. I also have a few small Opinel paring knives which are very reasonably priced.


You're referring to stainless Shun knives? Do you feel that effect with other stainless knives? I'm curious, usually that type of comment is directed towards carbon steel knives.


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