# italian buttercream



## jennadabombed (Apr 9, 2006)

Hey guys,


I could really use some help on my buttercream. I've been using an Italian buttercream recipe which has been getting rave reviews by my clients. It comes out very white and very easy to use. I use 1# sugar, 4 oz water, 8 oz egg whites, and 1# butter. The problem is that my consistancy isn't always the same. I know I can do it, because I have turned out some beautiful batches. But most of the time they don't get so beautiful. I heat the sugar to 243 F, beat my egg whites and then slowly pour in the sugar mixture. lately, and it is extremely frustrating, it has been getting these small gummy chunks in it. I can use cheese cloth to remove them, but I would rather fix the problem more efficently. I use a heavy bottom pot to heat the sugar, brush down the sides to keep from crystalizing. I have no idea. Like I said i've made very successful batches... lately not so successful. 


Also, does anyone have any suggestions for a good buttercream for the icing of the cake, or is the Italian buttercream a good choice?

Thanks, Jenna


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## erik (Jan 23, 2006)

I am a big fan of italian buttercream myself - and I think I know what your problem may be. When you add your sugar, are you making sure to drizzle it down the side of the bowl? If not, it can get fling around when it hits the wisk and form little chunks throughout the mixture.

I also don't like to get my sugar over 238*, but that's just how I was trained.


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## jennadabombed (Apr 9, 2006)

Erik,

Thanks for your response. I may be getting impatient and trying to get out all the melted sugar. It starts off on the side of the bowl, but may not keep going that way because I am using a huge heavy bottomed pot and that gets tricky. I'm going to have to break down and buy a smaller pot and that might help me out in the long run. I'll pay more attention to the stream of sugar. I will also try your new temp. of heating the sugar.

J


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Are those chunks sugar or scrambled whites? It sounds like they're sugar, but if you suspect the bits are pieces of cooked egg white, pour the sugar in more slowly. I had used Italian for years until I realized how much easier Swiss is to make. It'a bit bit strage to use, after years of working with a stiffer icing, but the taste is the same, and the results are comparable. You might like to give it a try. Let me know if you need a recipe.


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## erik (Jan 23, 2006)

As an alternative to going out and buying a new pot, just get a scaling pitcher. Most of the commercial ones have no problem handling this amount of heat, and it is much, much easier on your arms!


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## aprilb (Feb 4, 2006)

Then it has to be how you prepare individual batches. 

So the blobby bits are prior to adding butter?

I know that the head baker at my resort was having all kinds of trouble with French Buttercream. It would curdle with the addition of the fat. I found that the main problem when doing something you've done for ages is patience. 

I've made tons of French Buttercream or Italian Merangue. Same principle. Yeah, sometimes you have a bad run. It's the culinary universe keeping us humble. 

I'm guessing that it's too thick a stream of syrup (too much heat), possibly hitting the beater or side of the bowl. It is kind of tough when you have your whisk only about an inch from the sidewall. (We need a little attachment to your Hobart that holds a funnel the right distance between the beater and the side) 

Have you checked beater speed? Some recipes call for adding ingredients on low then raising the speed or vise verse.

I agree that the temp seems a tad high, and it does sound like blobs of cooked egg whites. 

I've never used the brush down method when heating sugar syrup for buttercream or merangue because I'm not making caramel or anything that would be a problem with crystalization. I just make certain that the sugar is disolved before I bring it to temp. Leave it alone and wait for that little magic thermometer to tell me it's at the temp I want. I also don't scrape the sides when pouring, just leave the stuff stuck on the sides there. 

What I would do (and have done) is go over the recipe and pretend I'm making it for the first time. Re-read everything I already know, make it step by step (do an anal compulsive thing) and see if I've been missing something. 

Hope this helps. 

April
:roll:


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## auzzi (Dec 13, 2004)

We were discussing failed "tried and reliable" recipes when this point came up with regard to heating sugar from beet.

Here is an article to read: and three quotes to consider:

ARTICLE: 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...31/FD91867.DTL

" Sugar is processed from either sugar cane or sugar beets. For most baking recipes, there is no difference in quality or performance between cane or beet sugar. However, if a recipe involves melting or caramelizing sugar, cane sugar seems to melt more readily than beet sugar." [Pillsbury]

Cane sugar contains trace minerals that are different from those in beet sugar, and it's these minerals that many experts say make cane sugar preferable to use. As professional bakers have long noticed, cane sugar has a low melting-point, absorbs fewer extraneous and undesirable odors, blends easily and is less likely to foam up. And that can be very important when you're caramelizing a syrup, making a delicate glaze, baking a delicious meringue, or simmering your family's favorite jam recipe. [Cane Sugar Industry]

"_Is there a difference between sugar produced from sugar beets and sugar produced from sugar cane? _
I am not sure I agree entirely with The Sugar Associations answer to the question. There is antedoctal information that indicates that cane sugar is important for making of frostings and jellies. During a photoshoot and discussion with a local donut shop owner, he discussed the problems a supplier caused with his donut frostings -- it suddenly changed in spreadability and customers were complaining that it tasted worse. He traced it down to a change of cane sugar into beet sugar. I had students in a class look at its ability to interfer with the swelling of starch granules. There was some indication; however, not enough for me to state it definitive. Actually, in the summer of 2001, I hope to try some preliminary unfunded research to explore this. I have found it interesting. A number of questions to the Food Resource have said problems with jelly making and also frostings. These types of inquiries is why I still continue to try and answer questions. The questions is not settled!!
I will try and get the scanning electron micrographs placed on the web yet. Since Summer of 2001 I took some of the two sugars and found that the cane sugar was a nice clean looking crystal and the beet sugar looked like it had garbage "stuff" on the surface. There appears to be an actual difference. More to come. " http://food.oregonstate.edu/faq/sugar/sugar2.html]


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

There is also the fact that the sugar is produced in two different sections of the plants. Beet sugar where the sugar is stored in the roots and cane sugar where the sugar is stored in the leaves. That may explain the garbage stuff you saw on the beet sugar crystals. But thats interesting stuff let us know how your research goes I like where you are going with it.

Best Regards Cakerookie...


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## rocco90046 (Mar 28, 2008)

Hi Jenna, 

Stick with Italian buttercream if you want some sort of stability in your frosting. For example if your cake is going to be out-side on a humid day or night. If you are in the East and Southeast where it can get very humid, you might try to put a very small amount of shortening (about 1/4 cup will do) to add more stability. Some bakeries in the south use only shortening for only this reason. If it were up to me I would just not make any cakes in the summer if I lived in the south. lol 

Here are two things you might try on your method of making the buttercream. If you are pouring the sugar into the eggwhites make sure you have the speed on your mixer set at its lowest point as you pour your syrup, and let the syrup roll down the side of the mixing bowl. This will eliminate any threading or clumping from sugar coming in contact with the spinning paddle. After all the syrup has been poured then you can mix at a higher speed. Also I noticed that you are waiting too long to remove you sugar from the heat. You should be removing your syrup from the fire as it reached 240 deg f. Remember there is always cook over time so always go directly from the fire to the mixer or the sugar will continue to rise in temp. So no detours while your doing this. The temperature of 243deg F which you are using is very close to Firm ball stage which is at 245 deg f. One of these factors might be causing your problem with the lumps. Let me know if this helps and send pics of your finished product. 

Rocco


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Swiss method is the way to go.


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## rrcos (Apr 2, 2007)

I need to try this italian buttercream.. I've always made the tradional buttercream and never cared to try the italian recipe because italian cream cake always came to mind and I don't like it too much.. 

I'll give it a try the next time I make a cake..


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## rrcos (Apr 2, 2007)

Hello Jenna and all..

I tried my hand at making this buttercream, from your formula.. but was not able to use it as a frosting.. I think everyhting was fine until I added the butter to the cooled sugar and egg whites base.

The mixture was fluffy and full of volume (I had cooled it for about 30 minutes while whipping at high speed). It was when I added the butter that the mixture went flat and became too thinned to use as a frosting. I covered it and refrigerated the frosting overnight. When I went back to the mixture it was nice and firm but I was only able to use as a filling for a cake (It tasted perfect).. 

Where did I go wrong..?


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## erik (Jan 23, 2006)

RRcos-

My buttercream does this almost everytime. The trick (if yours is doing what mine does) is to_ keep mixing it_!
Just give it more time on the mixer after you add the butter (and it deflates) and it will correct itself. Also, I often use smallish pieces of cold butter and do not worry about letting the meringue cool.

Erik


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## rrcos (Apr 2, 2007)

Thank you Erik.. I will try again..


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## tastygourmet (Apr 19, 2008)

After years of only making french buttercream I learned of Italian bc in culinary school,...I like it much better,
flavor and lighter texturewise, it is less greasey... i mean it needs less butter to comes together to spreading consistency. i feel the trick is that when it deflates it just needs alittle more butter and it comes together like a dream, always make sure it is beaten to the point it is cool before adding butter, If you need to put a bowl of ice water under bowl to expediate cooling.


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## chefraz (May 10, 2007)

just to add my two coins in: It might be where your located (s in elevation)but,I have my bakers scale the whites and put them in the cooler till the sugar reaches 116 degrees, then quickly take it out start whipping the eggs and sugar into Meringue. when the eggs are finished your sugar should be at 126 degrees this is when it comes off the stove it goes into the Meringue.the last stage is letting the mixture cool off while mixing(it takes awhile)plus we mix the butter in a separate bowl for 10 minutes to make it fluffy. and get the lumps out.


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## tessa (Sep 9, 2007)

me being a pain in the butt here , but what does these temps convert down to in to celcius


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## phoenix 12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Don't add the butter to the merengue. Add the merengue to the whipped butter. To the OP I would bet cooked egg whites. When trying to cool off the bowl be very careful on how you cool it. Condensation can build up on the inside of the bowl then you will have a mess. I like to use towels soaked on cool water, and then wrap them around the bowl for a few secs.

Mike


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

--should be around 118-9 Celcius.


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Adding butter to the eggs shouldn't be a problem if your meringue has cooled to around 30-32 degrees celsius.


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## phoenix 12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm just saying if you add the merengue to the butter you won't have the problem of it turning to soup.

Mike


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## tessa (Sep 9, 2007)

thanks guys your fabulous


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## rrcos (Apr 2, 2007)

Thank you all..

I will let you know how it went..


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## jason t (Aug 16, 2008)

I am not sure if you have solved this or not but I have had the same problem. When I was in class we were making cakes and using this style frosting and getting the same results. Our pastry chef said that it could be caused by the hot sugar hitting the sides of the bowl as you were adding it to egg whites. It has been a few years but I believe he said that it caused a rapid cooling which would cause the sugar to gum up forming little sugar balls. His solution was to make sure the sugar poured directly into the egg whites with no bowl contact. I hope that helps!


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## kazeya (Jan 11, 2009)

LOL! i had the same problem with my buttercream becoming soupy!! ! i dunno how to solve this problem  do we actually have to let the italian meringue cooool all the way down to room temperature then only add in the butter? we don need to cream the butter first or something rite?


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## econerly (May 3, 2009)

Can I revive this post with a question on the temperature of the syrup?

I am new to buttercream, and all of my italian bc recipes call for firm ball stage (248 F). I tried one and it worked great, but now I'm wondering if I should change it...

Any thoughts on the reason for the different temps, and what impact they have on the finished product?


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## cool_name_here (Apr 30, 2009)

248 is a little high, iwould say take it off the stove at 238 so carryover cooking will take it up to about 240. a higher temp will give you a harder sugar. making it harder or impossible to incorporate into the whites. 


and for the OP how much did you whip the whites prior to adding the sugar. whites whipped too much will give you lumps.


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Agreed, the italian meringue recipes I know recommend heating the sugar to soft ball (around 240 F/115 C) stage.


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## cool_name_here (Apr 30, 2009)

And soupy buttercream is a result of adding butter to the meringue when it is still too hot. My solution is to throw it in the freezer for a couple minutes whisk and all. Then throw it back on the mixer. If its still too soupy, back in the freezer for a couple more minutes.


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## rosea (Feb 2, 2010)

Temp is key! I just made a huge 12 egg white mess by heating my sugar too high. It beat up beautifully but I ended up with tiny threads of yucky scrambled egg whites. I tried working it through fine mesh but that didn't work. I have to start all over! Watch your temp! When it says softball they mean softball.


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## dillonsmimi (Dec 2, 2009)

Buy a nice shiny KA mixer. Now you are hands free to stream the molten sugar and drop the chunks of butter. If you get the scrambled egg problem corrected and the BC seems to break anyway (curdled looking) keep dropping in the butter. When everything is in, place your bowl of curdled BC in fridge and leave it alone until cold. Then put back on your machine and beat the crap out of it. It will come together.


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## bekazu (Sep 22, 2009)

Another thing to consider when you have been making Italian BC for years and it suddenly wont work is the actual butter itself.  The only batches of soupy frosting I have made were using cheap butter.


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

With the benefit of experience and an open mind I can say that a deft hand at pouring the syrup will eliminate most, if not all of the clumping problems.  In addition, a higher sugar syrup temperature should not adversely affect your final product, not even really cook it that much more.  You already beat your egg whites to a nearly stiff peak when you add the sugar so it's just a huge collection of air bubbles, heat simply doesn't travel well through this network.  A few degrees above shouldn't cause problems.  Actually, Herve This postulated about making Italian meringues with a higher sugar temperature, so the possibility is there.


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## tuscan chef (Jan 27, 2010)

Italian buttercream ? Never heard about it here!.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Tuscan Chef said:


> Italian buttercream ? Never heard about it here!.


Actually this is a shortcut term to refer to buttercream based on meringue italienne - I don't know how common that is here in italy, but in other languages they often use terms for a specific meaning - florentine means with spinach - whether or not the actual dish is typical of florence. 
Meringue italienne is "italian meringue" which is eggwhites that are beaten and a hot sugar syrup is beaten into them which stabilizes them and cooks them at the same time. Then butter is beaten into it when it's cool. The meringue (minus the butter) also makes the absolutely best ice cream - mix it with whipped cream and freeze, and you have an ice cream without any crystals, without an ice cream machine - and if you add melted chocolate to the meringue and beat it all till cooled and then add whipped cream to that, you have the absolutely best chocolate ice cream (for my taste anyway).


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2010)

While I agree with some of the method suggestions you have been given, the major flaw I see is that your egg white, sugar, butter ratio is off. Classical Italian Buttercream is a 1:2:3 ratio. Your listed ratio is a 1:2:2. You are short on butter, 1/2# short for the recipe you listed.

This style of frosting is an emulsion; 1/2 formula, 1/2 recipe; there is lots of science going on here!

Other things to consider:

Temp, temp, temp.  @ 230, start whipping, @ 240, start pouring; no more, no less.  Thin, steady stream- aim for the space between where the whip spins and the side of the bowl.

Make sure you don't go past soft peaks with your whites. 

Cream your butter, vanilla and lemon first. A light and fluffy butter mix combines into the meringue easier than chunks. Add it a spatula full at a time to help the emulsion process, starting with a small scoop and getting gradually larger with each addition. Allow each addition fully incorporate before the next addition. Just like making hollandaise or mayonnaise, you don’t just throw in your oil all at once.

Get all of your ingredients to room temp before beginning. Egg whites whip better at room temp and they will be less likely to cool off your syrup as some have suggested.

"Whip it good!"- let the meringue cool after the syrup is in...it can be just slightly warm to the touch, but give it due time in the mixer, mixing on high until it is cool. Usually no less than 15 minutes, but up to 1/2 hour. A trick- every 5 minutes or so, slowly lower the bowl while mixing to break up the top layer. The top layer acts like a layer of insulation and holds the heat in; you might even see some steam escape the first time you do this. But be careful, I don't think OSHA would recommend this process

Good luck!


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