# Tiramisu



## Aldente (Apr 26, 2012)

I have been wanting to make this for years but to be honest, I have been scared. I was told it is a difficult desert to prepare.

I would like to attempt it, however I cannot use liquor. Is there a non-alcoholic substitute for the Marsala?

Here is what I have found as an ingredient list:

1 cup sugar
1/2 cup sweet Marsala wine
6 egg yolks
1 pound Mascarpone cheese, room temperature
1-1/2 cups hot water
5 teaspoons instant coffee powder
1/2 cup coffee-flavored liqueur
Approximately 12 ounces ladyfingers (Savoiardi)
Unsweetened cocoa for dusting cake
1 ounce semi-sweet chocolate, grated (optional)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You can use fruit juice or sweetened coffee (perhaps flavored with an extract such as almond) instead of wine.

More generally, it's not a particularly difficult dessert to make as much as it's complicated.  That is, there are a lot of steps -- none of them difficult -- and a lot of assembly. Take your time, clean up and put away between steps so your counter doesn't get too crowded, and you'll be just fine. 

For what it's worth, the "clean as you go" thing is one of the keys to good cooking.  Most good cooks keep their station clean and organized.   If working from mise en place in a well-organized space isn't already part of your routine, you'll be surprised at what a difference it makes in your timing, the quality of the final output and how much it "de-stresses" the cooking process, and how much fun you have cooking. 

BDL


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## Aldente (Apr 26, 2012)

Hey thanks BDL

That gives me some encouragement for attempting this dessert.

Oh absolutely I am in complete agreement with you on "clean as you go".

Thanks for the alternatives to the liquor!


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

You can flambée on advance the Marsala and the liquor until the alcohol evaporates.

Of course, you know that instant coffee is not the same as espresso or filtered coffee.


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## Aldente (Apr 26, 2012)

Ah.. thank you for pointing out the instant coffee.  I would not probably use that.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I've almost never had tiramisu with alcohol  here in Rome, and that's surprising because almost all cakes have some liqueur. 

They dunk the lady fingers into plain espresso coffee (no don't use instant, it doesn't taste as good at all) and line the dish.    Most people use pavesini, a thin ladyfinger kind of commercial cookie, but some use lady fingers. But they;re wet through with coffee.  You can water down the espresso a little if you want. 

Eggs and sugar are beaten together and mixed with the mascarpone. 

A layer of lady fingers (completely soaked in espresso)

a layer of mascarpone, a good inch thick

another of lady fingers

anotehr of mascarpone

and eithyer plain unsweetened cocoa sifted on top or grated dark semisweet chocolate on top

I'm not sure what region of Italy tiramisu originated from - this is how it's made in Rome.  No liqueur.  Nothing else. Maybe other regions have marsala or something.  One of the easiest dishes to make. 

Personally i prefer to make an italian meringue with egg whites and boiling sugar syrup and mix that with the mascarpone.  It comes out much softer.


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## Aldente (Apr 26, 2012)

Siduri

This sounds Awesome!  I am now inspired again to go make this!


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

Siduri, your posts are always incredibly inspiring. I thought I knew how to make Tiramisu before I read this thread. Thank you!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## indygal (Dec 7, 2010)

Thank you for that, BDL.  My brother laughs at me for cleaning up as I go.   He also gets peeved with me because as soon as I can, I transfer leftovers to smaller containers, giving me more space in the fridge.   Now when HE cooks, he has a gofer, ME.  So he never really feels the "pinch" of a small kitchen.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Many good cooks clean up as they go.  One, at least doesn't.

I actually usually have stuff piled up around me wherever I'm working, whether on a paper for a conference, or a piece of calligraphy, or cooking...  or anything.  It's not intentional. It just is. 

I usually have three things going on at once.  The only time i couldn't do that was during menopause - then, like my husband or most men i know, i could only do one thing at a time, and would burn the sauce because i was answering the phone!

And i find it IMMENSELY irritating when some well-meaning person starts washing things as i cook.  If i finished chopping the onions it doesn;t mean i don;t want to use the knife to smash the garlic.  I want to find it right where i left it!  It saves time, and it saves washing.    And at the end, it's faster to clean up once than to have to keep cleaning up all through the cooking process. 

I guess the difference is also between the person who gets home from work late with some bags of shopping, rips them open and starts cooking with the shopping still on the kitchen chairs and gets a (pretty amazing) dinner on the table in half an hour (albeit with a kitchen that looks like a cyclone struck it) and someone who has lots of time to prepare things and go at an even pace.  But i do it that way even when i do have time. 

We all have our own style of working, i guess.  I don;t say it would be good in a professional kitchen - but i luckily don;t have to care about that.


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## margcata (Sep 18, 2011)

Good Afternoon,

Tiramisù translates to: Pick Me Up or Energize.

The Marsala wine Mascarpone cream spiked with Espresso dessert originated in Milan, Lombardia.

Have nice Sunday.

Margcata.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Don't most people already know the English translation for tiramisu?


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I make almost same way only I add some Kahlua. or coffee  liquor and a touch of Marsala. I have worked in many places that mix a little cream cheese ino mascapone so it freezes better and does not water out when thawed.The commercial cream cheese has bult in stabilyzers.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

margcata said:


> Good Afternoon,
> 
> Tiramisù translates to: Pick Me Up or Energize.
> 
> ...


No it did not originate in Milan. It was invented in El Touga, Treviso.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks for the info, Kuan.

Sometimes, I think we would all be led astray by info posted by others here...


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## margcata (Sep 18, 2011)

Good Evening,

According to www.kitchenproject.com Tiramisù derived during 1723, in Siena as the dessert to be served to Cosimo III and the French King. Another point this website mentions is that because Lady Fingers do not contain yeast, they were very popular for Orthodox Jewish People at Passover celebrations.

Now, www.wikipedia.com states there are two views; one is Siena and another Savoiardi, Savoy, France ! It is related to the Zuppa di Inglese.

Thus, we can state that it is very popular in Milan, Lombardia as there are uncountable cafés dedicated to its preparation; as well as Treviso and Venecia, in Veneto.

Perhaps, the next time I am in Milan, or Veneto, I shall go over to the Government´s Agricultural Board, and see what they say.

Have nice Sunday.

Margcata.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

A quick google search in italian led to several hypotheses, in the 1500s or 1600s in Siena, in Tuscany (generically) and 1960 in the restaurant "El Toula"

Treviso in 1960 is the conclusion given in the the wikipedia article in italian. This gives an apparently scholarly story of its history - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiramisù - replete with footnotes. (This doesn't mean it's true of course, but it is quite convincing). But it says that there is no evidence for any recipe of this desert before 1960 (of course, there could be one and it's not been found) and that while mascarpone,its principle ingredient, is from Lombardy originally and Treviso is in Veneto, by the 60s mascarpone was shipped everywhere. The author says that the original had no alcohol, just coffee, eggs, sugar, ladyfingers (savoiardi) and mascarpone.

Alcohol, being a depressant, unlike coffee, a stimulant, would make it a "buttamigiu'"

But of course, you should make it however you like it best.


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## margcata (Sep 18, 2011)

Of course, according to Giuseppe Maffioli, of the Italian Academy, the " origini " dates back to Duke Cosimo de Medici in Siena, and he had made a trip to Treviso and in his honor,

Ristorante Le Beccherie ( Treviso ) prepared it for him.

However, this does not confirm that he had tried this dessert before, with his own Chef / Cooks.

This was documented on website: www.lifeinitaly.com ( in both Italian and English ).

So, there are several viewspoints, and none are completely clear.

Have nice Sunday.

Margcata.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I will disagree with all those "websites" you cite.  Those internet sources are just a bunch wannabes who think they know it all.

My source is Bo Friberg's book, The New Professional Pastry Chef.

Anyway the OP asked a specific question about leaving the liquor out of Tiramisu.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Bo Friberg was a great teacher, I had him for pastry at CCA in 1980.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Now I'm confused by the Friberg references. Do we or do we not leave the liquor out of kuan and chefbuba?

BDL


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## colombochute (May 18, 2011)

margcata said:


> Now, www.wikipedia.com states there are two views; one is Siena and another Savoiardi, Savoy, France !


Would it be the biscuit that originates from Savoie, not the dessert itself?


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Interesting Colombochute....

I have in my hand the Fourth Edition "Fundamentals of Baking and Pastry" by Bo Friberg and in his Traditional Tiramisu Presentation it calls for the following (page 694)

1 ½ recipes Ladyfingers batter (page 445)

3 cups (720ml) strong coffee

1 recipe Mascarpone Filling

Unsweetened cocao powder

@ Aldente

*"however I cannot use liquor. Is there a non-alcoholic substitute for the Marsala?"*

As Siduri kindly pointed out, if you cannot use liquor then simply omit it. Replacing it with anything else , in my opinion, will change the flavor profile.


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## farfromit (Apr 28, 2012)

Has anyone ever tried their hand at a *Tiramisu Wedding cake*? I have (or had) a great recipe, and tried all over Houston (in 2004) for someone to make it for me... But all said NO! Even though I was having a very small wedding (20 people), and it is the only cake that I really love.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

There;s a  problem with the Siena hypothesis, which I, too, had found in many websites and which is fun and interesting and all that.  Wherever i found it mentioned, there were no historical references (no footnotes, no research) - none of those i read, anyway.  But beyond that, the main problem is  that Mascarpone is from Lombardy.  Carrying it to Siena in the days of pack mules and no refrigeration would not have worked.  That was the most convincing argument.  And nobody has yet found a recipe or reference for it before 1960. 

Travel articles are written for fun.  They don't cite references, references are boring.  And even a great chef can be wrong on history, since it's not his field.  But the convincing argument would be an actual quote, with the reference material, to some historical document written in in Siena or about Siena in the 1500s or 1600s where tiramisu, or a desert with coffee and mascarpone, appears.

It doesn;t really matter, the question, as Petalsandcoco pointed out,  was if it there's a substitute for marsala, and since it's often made without it, and people still love it,  the original poster doesn't need to replace it. 

Then, you can add whatever you want.  There's a famous tiramisu place near here (Pompi), known all over Rome, that makes all kinds of tiramisu', with strawberries, with raspberries, with pistachio, etc, (none of which have liqueur) and which, on Sundays, has a line that goes out on the sidewalk.   So if you want to replace it, you can replace the coffee with strawberry juice and put strawberries on top, or in between.  You can let your imagination go wild.  My only suggestion is keep it simple.  The real treat of tiramisu' is the flavor of the mascarpone.  Enhance, but don;t cover.  I had it once just completely white with no coffee, no chocolate.  It was wonderful.


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## Aldente (Apr 26, 2012)

I had not considered this, as I was under the impression that some Marsala or rum was necessary.

Thank you.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Well, AlDente, these ingredients are flavorings, and if you don;t like the flavor, or are allergic to them, then you just leave them out.  Or put in what flavor you like.  If you don;t like coffee, you can make tiramisu without it, and you'll never miss it.  It's not like the liqueur is necessary to the structure of it, like sugar or eggs are necessary to a cake or something.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

siduri said:


> The real treat of tiramisu' is the flavor of the mascarpone. Enhance, but don;t cover.


Right. The ruin of this dessert is the excess of sugar. The delicate saltiness and acidity of the mascarpone, the bitterness of the coffee and the unsweetened chocolate powder should be preserved. Put sugar in every step of the preparation and you kill the flavour layering of the dessert.


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