# Should i buy it?



## Pirvan Lucian (Mar 19, 2019)

Hello everyone,this is my first post around but i've been following ChefTalk for some time.
Have some questions about a knife acquisition.This month Zwilling made a sell on a Professional S 8" Chef knife,50% off.It's a bit under 60$.I really want to buy it.What do you think?Is it worth the price.How is the blade on Pro S?I want to buy a Whetstone Sharpening kit of some sort.Some recommandations lead me to a Sharp Pebble 1000/6000 kit for a begginer in Sharpening Knives.Is it a good match with the knife?


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

What country are you in? Cutlery availability is significantly affected by national location, and we have inquiries from many areas around the world. I will admit that I'm not a fan of Zwilling, and so before I (or anyone else) can seriously comment on alternatives (or about sharpening stones), we need to figure out what is available in your area.

Also, if you're a professional, then I would not recommend anything as short as 8 inches (a little less than 20cm). I think you would be much better served using a blade in the 240mm to 270mm length.

GS


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

The Zwilling Pro S has a full bolster, including a fat fingerguard. It hinders proper sharpening and hides the heel, which is otherwise very useful. If it has to be that kind of Zwilling, the Pro comes without the fingerguard reaching up to the edge.
Now about Zwillings in general: fat, heavy and soft. Fool proof. The only reason this soft steel has been chosen. 
The profile is fine for very tall people rock chopping on far to low a board. Otherwise, the high tip can't be used without elevating your elbow above your shoulder.
8" is a bit short. No fun with cabbage or celeriac.
If it has to be a soft stainless German, consider one specific Wüsthof, the 4581, from the former Cordon Bleu series, perhaps as a 23cm. Lighter, with a lower tip and no fingerguard. Same Krupp 4116 as the Zwilling.
But any reason why it should be stainless, soft stainless, have a German profile? Those 50% off are just a fraud. Nobody sells this knife at US$120. 
About sharpening: this type of steel can be polished, but it will weaken it considerably. If you want to enjoy at least some edge retention sharpen at 400 and strop and deburr very lightly at 800 or so. Keep it rough and it may serve you somewhat.


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## Pirvan Lucian (Mar 19, 2019)

galley swiller said:


> What country are you in? Cutlery availability is significantly affected by national location, and we have inquiries from many areas around the world. I will admit that I'm not a fan of Zwilling, and so before I (or anyone else) can seriously comment on alternatives (or about sharpening stones), we need to figure out what is available in your area.
> 
> Also, if you're a professional, then I would not recommend anything as short as 8 inches (a little less than 20cm). I think you would be much better served using a blade in the 240mm to 270mm length.
> 
> GS


I'm from Romania.This knife will be a replacement for my IKEA CHEF KNIFE.It's a decent *X50CrMoV15 for 20$ but want an upgrade*.Been reaching other forums.In the future i might be buying a Japanease one. My eyes right now are on a Tojiro DP 210mm.Found an importer and the price is 80$.So the upgrade from IKEA to Zwilling will be worth it especially with 50% off.
And on the Sharpening Amazon UK is my place.I've been looking at Burrfection for a long time and that Sharp Pebble is a good entry level stone,but *WILL IT BE ON MATCH WITH THE ZWILLING PRO S?*


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## Pirvan Lucian (Mar 19, 2019)

benuser said:


> The Zwilling Pro S has a full bolster, including a fat fingerguard. It hinders proper sharpening and hides the heel, which is otherwise very useful. If it has to be that kind of Zwilling, the Pro comes without the fingerguard reaching up to the edge.
> Now about Zwillings in general: fat, heavy and soft. Fool proof. The only reason this soft steel has been chosen.
> The profile is fine for very tall people rock chopping on far to low a board. Otherwise, the high tip can't be used without elevating your elbow above your shoulder.
> 8" is a bit short. No fun with cabbage or celeriac.
> ...


Actually right here these are the prices during the year.It's not that I'm more into Zwilling.My only previous experience was a Twin Pollux at the place I worked and I liked it.I was in my first steps on knives though.This one,the Zwilling Pro S I want to buy will be in my home kitchen that's why I didn't went up to a 9" or more.My IKEA will be the one that handles large root vegetables or so.
*It's just that this is the only one on sale this month,the Pro S otherwise I would've got a Pro for the modern look.Other options in German range will be a Wüsthof iKON or something but it's over 120$ *


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## Pirvan Lucian (Mar 19, 2019)

So....Should i go with the Pro S at 57 USD 50% OFF or invest more in other one? I really wish knives would be more reachable here or at least Amazon being able to send to Romania(knives are currently not being sent to here).Don't know if i mentioned that it'll be a knife used at home.
Sharpening wise what benuser said messed me up a bit 


benuser said:


> If you want to enjoy at least some edge retention sharpen at 400 and strop and deburr very lightly at 800 or so


Is the Friodur better to be sharpened at that 400-800 range and not worth taking it higher into like 4000-6000 grit?


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Have a look at knivesandtools.com
They send everywhere in the Union, and beyond. 
Krupp's 4116 contains large carbides in a soft matrix. Fine stones leave the hard carbides as they are, but weaken the soft matrix even more. This leads to poor edge stability.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

I agree with benuser about the 4116 steel (which is the same as "X50CrMoV15"). There isn't much difference between Zwilling's "proprietary" steel and 4116 steel. That steel is mostly chosen by manufacturers because it's a very tough steel and resists chipping. That means there won't be so much need for sellers/dealers to deal with broken and chipped edges. The downside is that it's also a somewhat soft steel that will resist abrasion (meaning it's difficult to sharpen) and it's not going to hold a good polish on the edge you do manage to finish sharpening it with.

Bottom line in comparing your present IKEA blade with the Zwilling: After sharpening, I don't think there will be that much difference (if any) in the cutting performance between the two knives.

For a better alternative in the 210mm length (if you absolutely must use that length), then try a MAC HB-85 gyuto. European prices can be found at around 75 euros.

But for a 255mm length (much more practical), I would suggest a MAC BK-100 gyuto, with a price range around 119 euros.

Of course, I can't speak about taxes and shipping costs - you will have to independently research that.

GS


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

That Fibrox is at the top of inexpensive restaurant knives, nice profile and thin grind. The Wusttof Pro is in the same category but more German in profile, though I've heard it has harder steel .


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

rick alan said:


> That Fibrox is at the top of inexpensive restaurant knives, nice profile and thin grind. The Wusttof Pro is in the same category but more German in profile, though I've heard it has harder steel .


Both are made of that same Krupp's 4116. About the Victorinox Fibrox: I wouldn't call it thin where it matters: right behind the edge.
Have a look at what Victorinox says about it:

With good knives, figures are 0.2mm above the edge, 0.5mm at 5mm. Here that 0.5mm thickness is already reached at 2.5mm. 
First thing I do with new ones is flattening the shoulder: that's where bevel and face meet.
The MAC BK-100 is an excellent suggestion.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

My 10" vic chefs (same blade as the fibrox) was just 0.3-.35 at the edge. For a cheap 10" chefs I personally haven't found anything I'd prefer over it. The Article essentially only says and edge should be allowed to get no thicker than 0.6. 0.4 is likely the top range that Vic/Fibrox ship knives. I had an easy time bringing it to .25, as thin as you should go with the steel's temper of around 56RC. BTW, I believe the Vic/Fibrox use the same steel as the Swiss Army knives, which is 1.4110/4110.

Anyway, what sub $50 chef knives are going to be thinner than 0.6 at the edge? The only one I've found is the Vic, and the iHomeer I recently spoke of, which ran .25-.028. All Wusty and Henkles are all typically over 0.6, yes? And the Cordon Bleu is very expensive in comparison. The 9" chefs is $165 on Amazon US!

The Vic/Fibrox has the height, edge profile and thinness (in my experience) though the handles are too bulbous at the front choil/front end, but that is easily fixed to your liking with a little electric hand grinder.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Your experience with 0.35 at the edge coincides very well with where the 0.5mm are reached: at 2.5mm towards the spine according to Victorinox, at 5mm with thin knives.
For thin and unexpensive, go carbon. Robert Herder.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

That being said, I do like the Vics for their value and no-nonsense approach. Easily replaced if someone was stupid. No drama. 
But for having them work properly , first remove the shoulders. No big deal.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

The Vics are 4116 I believe, and a bit coarser than forged Zwilling or Wüsthof. Much more abrasion resistant than the SAKs.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

“All Wusty and Henkles are all typically over 0.6, yes?”

Maybe. I just measured three 1980’s era Henckles 4-star, two 8-inch and a 10-inch, that have been sharpened over the years but not intentionally thinned. They measured just under .6 mm immediately behind the edge at midblade.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

With a Cordon Bleu I found 0.35mm and could reduce it under the 0.3 be easing the shoulders. 
So at least you won't crack but cut your carrots. 
That’s why I start sharpening behind the bevel, thinning a bit every time. 
In the eighties the Wüsthof came with a convexed edge. Today it's a straight one with very pronounced shoulders, and a very edge the steel doesn't take or hold. Cheaper production and a lot of marketing.
Once the shoulders are taken off and the very edge is slightly rounded they become usable again.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

brianshaw said:


> "All Wusty and Henkles are all typically over 0.6, yes?"
> 
> Maybe. I just measured three 1980's era Henckles 4-star, two 8-inch and a 10-inch, that have been sharpened over the years but not intentionally thinned. They measured just under .6 mm immediately behind the edge at midblade.


No. 0.6mm is way too fat. If you reduce it, with a convex bevel in line with the blade's face, to say 0.4mm you will see a huge improvement.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

benuser said:


> No. 0.6mm is way too fat. If you reduce it, with a convex bevel in line with the blade's face, to say 0.4mm you will see a huge improvement.


No doubt.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Which brings me to the OP's question. 
For about €40 you may get a carbon steel 22cm chef's, made of the simplest steel in the world, C60, hardened at its max, 60Rc. Carbon steel sharpens very easily, is finely grained and is superior in sharpness to _any_ other. First weeks of use in a home environment, or first days in a pro, you should make sure to clean it immediately after use, by rinsing with the hottest water, wipe it off and let it air dry before putting away. 
This one isn't the thinnest, but clearly convexed. Almost no bevel. Excellent performer, blowing away any soft stainless. The Pallarès Solsona from Spain. Basic, but very well made.


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## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

Here's an interesting video from America's Test Kitchen;


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Pure BS. The factory edge is meaningless, a proper sharp edge only exists if you put one on, and most factory edges are poor. And there is no way a Vic compares favorably to most any carbon steel, let alone the high-end steel of the Zwillings Kramer. They're always shilling for Vic. Non of ATK's knife videos tell it like it is, but this one is perhaps their most ridiculous.


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## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

rick alan said:


> Pure BS. The factory edge is meaningless, a proper sharp edge only exists if you put one on, and most factory edges are poor. And there is no way a Vic compares favorably to most any carbon steel, let alone the high-end steel of the Zwillings Kramer. They're always shilling for Vic. Non of ATK's knife videos tell it like it is, but this one is perhaps their most ridiculous.


Seems to me you've missed the entire point of ATK's review;

1. Their 'favorite carbon-steel knife" (of the eight carbon-steel knives they tested) was the Kramer.
2. Regarding the Vic comparison; they found that the performance difference, after all was taken into consideration (extra cost, extra care required in use , ease of sharpening,etc) was not worth the cost difference of the Kramer. $40. vs $300.

Why would you say that ATK is "always shilling for Vic???? They simply like that knife, and whether you and I agree or disagree with them, is irrelevent. It's their prerogative, and I'm reasonably certain that they use those knives a helluva lot more than the average home cook.

My personal knife collection consists of roughly 15 knives,,,Shun,Miyabi,MAC,Wusthof Classic & Ikon, Zwilling Pro & Pro S, as well as a couple of Victorinox. My 6" Victorinox Rosewwod utility knife probably sees more duty that any other knife in my collection, and it's doing a stellar job in my opinion,,,,certainly MUCH better than I originally expected when I first bought it. I bought that knife about 6 months ago, and I have yet to sharpen it, despite using the knife at least 4-6 times a day. So far, all it's needed has been a quick touch-up with a steel, or, my Idahone ceramic honing rod, and I can slice ripe tomatoes so thin you can read a newspaper through them.

Not everything requires "extremes",,, you certainly don't need a scalpel to slice a tomato.

That said, the OP asked about a Zwilling Pro S at $50,,, and in my opinion, he'd have a very good knife in his hands, at a very reasonable cost. Does he need to spend hundreds more for a supposedly "better" knife?,,,,, I suspect not. I bought my first 10" Zwilling Pro S's over 40 years ago, and they're still like new. Are there "better knives" out there? Of course,,,, there's always "something better",,, but better at what precisely? The OP simply has to honestly assess his personal needs, and after all is considered, walk away with the knife that best suits those needs, and part of that includes cost vs performance ratio. To suggest that he might be walking away with an "inferior" knife, would be the most ridiculous view of all.

One more point; sharpening a knife with a full bolster is NOT a problem as Benuser stated,,, you simply rub the bottom of the bolster on your stone BEFORE touching the blade. The only time a full bolster presents a problem, is with elecric or pull-through sharpeners.

see the 7:00 mark in this video;


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

About the fingerguard: is a real problem if fat and stainless. Lifting it is a lot of work with some Zwilling and Wüsthof. No fun if you have to do it by hand. That Krupp 4116 is very abrasion resistant.
Not a real problem with traditional carbon Sabs and Herder 1922 series: a few minutes on an Atoma 140 and you're done for years. With those, I wouldn't favour a more radical approach as it is an essential part of the original design. 
Anyway, leave the first 1/2" unsharpened. And don't try any thinning near of it.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Bobby, the first apparent flaw in your reasoning, in your very long comment, was questioning why I should respond to a comment/vid made within this post, especially since it was your own. 

That aside, I suggest you listen to the video again, and other ATK knife vids, then study a little more about kitchen knives, using this forum, to expand beyond the mass-marketer knives, include sharpening, then listen to the ATK video(s) again. Because you are definitely not hearing or understanding what I am hearing and understanding.

Using factory-edges for comparison. 5000 whacks on the board and a soft stainless knife is "still" cutting toe to toe with a carbon Zwillings Kramer, as if it would even start out that way. Yes, BS.


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## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

benuser said:


> About the fingerguard: is a real problem if fat and stainless. Lifting it is a lot of work with some Zwilling and Wüsthof. No fun if you have to do it by hand. That Krupp 4116 is very abrasion resistant.
> Not a real problem with traditional carbon Sabs and Herder 1922 series: a few minutes on an Atoma 140 and you're done for years. With those, I wouldn't favour a more radical approach as it is an essential part of the original design.
> Anyway, leave the first 1/2" unsharpened. And don't try any thinning near of it.


Basically, it's very easy to see if and when the bolster needs to be shortened. Simply lay the flat of the blade apex on a flat surface, and shine a light behind the blade. If light can be seen under the blade,,, then the bolster needs trimming until the flat of the blade comes into full contact with the flat surface, and no longer allows light to pass through. If you start sharpening forward of the bolster, especially with a diamond or ceramic rod,,,over time you'll develop re-curve,,, and the blade will no longer come into full contact with a flat surface, leaving you with an incomplete cut, and crushing rather than cutting of your produce. A few rubs of the bottom of the bolster on a whetstone, or, silicon carbide sandpaper, and you're good to go.


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## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

rick alan said:


> Bobby, the first apparent flaw in your reasoning, in your very long comment, was questioning why I should respond to a comment/vid made within this post, especially since it was your own.
> 
> That aside, I suggest you listen to the video again, and other ATK knife vids, then study a little more about kitchen knives, using this forum, to expand beyond the mass-marketer knives, include sharpening, then listen to the ATK video(s) again. Because you are definitely not hearing or understanding what I am hearing and understanding.
> 
> Using factory-edges for comparison. 5000 whacks on the board and a soft stainless knife is "still" cutting toe to toe with a carbon Zwillings Kramer, as if it would even start out that way. Yes, BS.


I guess there's little point in whipping a dead horse. Your mind is completely made up, and you're focusing on knife extremisms, rather than considering the intended purpose of the knife, and whose hands it's in.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

No, I'm focusing on the quality/accuracy/honesty of the information. Vics, and similar knives, have been recommended a lot around here, but never misrepresenting what they are as ATK has done.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Bobby2shots said:


> Basically, it's very easy to see if and when the bolster needs to be shortened. Simply lay the flat of the blade apex on a flat surface, and shine a light behind the blade. If light can be seen under the blade,,, then the bolster needs trimming until the flat of the blade comes into full contact with the flat surface, and no longer allows light to pass through. If you start sharpening forward of the bolster, especially with a diamond or ceramic rod,,,over time you'll develop re-curve,,, and the blade will no longer come into full contact with a flat surface, leaving you with an incomplete cut, and crushing rather than cutting of your produce. A few rubs of the bottom of the bolster on a whetstone, or, silicon carbide sandpaper, and you're good to go.


I hope you don't suggest rod sharpening as a proper form of maintenance. I see a rod as an emergency tool.
When only sharpening the edge without performing at least some thinning, thickening of the area right behind it will rapidly occur.


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## Bobby2shots (Apr 22, 2019)

benuser said:


> I hope you don't suggest rod sharpening as a proper form of maintenance.
> 
> You bet I do,,,, but probably not in the way you're thinking.
> 
> ...


Let's be clear here,,,, I rarely use a rod to actually remove metal,,, I'm using it primarily to dress the edge,,, with an ultra-light touch. I don't wait until the edge gets seriously rolled over, and in six months of use, I've not had to sharpen my 6" Victorinox utility knife on my whetstones. That lil' Vic keeps on chugging along and slices tomatoes like a hot knife through butter.

I think there's an art to using steels,,, and they need not be the coarse brute that many see them as. Example; I often use my Idahone ceramic rod as a quasi "feeler-finger". What does that mean?///,,, Well, I hold the knife in one hand, and the rod in the other,,, then I drag the rod very slowly along the cutting edge, and with zero pressure,,, just the weight of the rod. I'm also seriously choking up on the handle when I grip the rod,,, and I actually hold the rod itself between my thumb and index and middle finger. The ceramic rod provides amazing feedback to the hand that's holding it, and lets you know precisely where along the blade roll-over is occuring (if at all). That in turn tells me whether I need to change a particular cutting method or alter and refine my cutting technique with certain foods, which in itself reduces the number of times I have to hone,,burnish,,, or sharpen,,,etc..

I've had the Victorinox for 6 months now, and it's telling me it may need a touch-up on a strop fairly soon,,, but I'm not quite "there" yet.

FWIW, I just received two new utility knives today,,,a 5.5" Zwilling Pro, and a 5.25" Miyabi Kaizen II. I haven't tried them yet, but my first impression tells me that my Vic feels as sharp as both of those, fresh out of the box.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

I've sharpened quite a few Victorinox and my impression was — although the steel is the same — it is a bit more coarsely grained than the Zwilling and Wüsthof I see.
With Victorinox, first thing I do is removing the shoulder and convexing the bevels with a Chosera 400. Deburring with the green, coarse side of a Scotch Brite sponge.
Any refinement is counterproductive. The big carbides will break out of the soft matrix. 
Holds quite well its edge even on poly boards.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If Pirvan is still lurking around, I just recalled that the French made Fischer Bargoin Zen line should be a good buy for you, made of high-quality Swedish stainless (14c28) known for it's ability to take a razor edge.


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## benuser (Nov 18, 2010)

Have you used it? I am a little sceptical about a handle with a metal butt. See no advantage in moving the balance point to the handle.
Sandvik's 14C28N is indeed a fantastic steel. I know it from the K-Sabatier 200 series.
https://www.sabatier-k.com/cuisine-25-cm-serie-200-manche-en-g10.html
Highly recommended.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Naw, https://www.thebestthings.com/knives/fischer_bargoin_zen_knives.htm carry them, and while they still had the 10" chefs available, at $109, I was tempted to buy it to replace my Vic just because it was so cheap. The 8" chefs is still $85, but if they restock prices will likely be higher. been that way for several years now, but the owner tell me these are introductory prices. Still...
https://www.gourmet-web.com/Fischer-Bargoin-Cooking-knives-Zen
not a wallet-breaker.

The butt cap is probably hollow, so they might not be heavy at all. The Sab in your link is certainly sweet.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

I am noticing that thebestthings.com is soon shutting down, since the owner is retiring. It's been a reliable source, but in anticipation of the retirement, the owner is selling off existing stock, and no new stock is likely to be added. Already, there is significant levels of "out-of-stock" status on what was previously available, and it's unlikely to get any better.

GS


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I kinda wish I'd bought the 240 or 270 Tanaka ironwood for short money when he had them in stock. They typically sold for near double elsewhere.


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