# Help with Re-model cooktop(?) burners.



## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm doing a complete kitchen demo re-do soon.  The choices for ranges and cook top leaves me wanting...they seem pathetic.

All the burners jammed in too close together.....cook top going to look terrible when used and dirty.......

Is there any intelligent thought to designing a cooktops/or/ranges that make them functional and usable for the few of us that really cook and use equipment intensely?

I need maybe 4 to 5 burners...gas with one induction spaced far apart.  Counter top will be 30" deep or more. One burner needs to be 20K BTU+ and the others need a real actual simmer setting.  I would choose cast iron as much as possible so it already look kind of dirty and dull and I don't have to clean a stupid glossy surface or pamper stained stainless.

Any ideas...maybe buy all separate units???


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

You're not going to get a 20K gas burner without some extra work. You'll need a larger capacity  gas line to deliver that much fuel. This is not always possible. Also, you'll have to meet extra levels of construction, fire proofing, and maybe fire suppression to have that strong of a burner via gas. Venting is also something that is given extra requirements with high output gas that you'll have to meet. For what you want, you'd probably be better served with separate units, but this poses it's own hurdles. Personally, I'm happy to go pure induction. Simpler, better response and control.


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

phatch said:


> You're not going to get a 20K gas burner without some extra work. You'll need a larger capacity gas line to deliver that much fuel. This is not always possible. Also, you'll have to meet extra levels of construction, fire proofing, and maybe fire suppression to have that strong of a burner via gas. Venting is also something that is given extra requirements with high output gas that you'll have to meet. For what you want, you'd probably be better served with separate units, but this poses it's own hurdles. Personally, I'm happy to go pure induction. Simpler, better response and control.


such heresy! no gas/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif

I can and will do what I need to do venting wise. What are the hurdles of separates?

Hard to believe you are contentment with all induction but it is food for thought.

I have a portable induction burner and it is very cool but I really dislike the cycling......and it seems it sometimes shuts its self off.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Separates you have to deal with the extra space requirements which is a big hurdle for most home kitchens,  the extra cost of power/fuel, doubling up on venting and combining ducting  or going with a custom single construction for the vent 

With the sort of venting you're likely to need there's an extra range of hassles. You'll be putting a lot CFM out of the house that has to be replaced. If it's done incorrectly, you can poison yourself with carbon monoxide from your furnace. You're also venting conditioned air you paid to heat/cool, so you'll probably benefit from a heat exchange system to pre-heat/cool the replacement air with what you're venting. 

If you're in a condo or HOA situation, there could be other restrictions. 

As to induction vs gas: Gas stoves are about 33% efficient. So your hard to find 20K BTU burner is only putting 6600 BTUs into the pot. Induction is about 85% efficient. An easily found 3300 Watt burner on an induction cooktop is about 9500 BTUs into the pot.  You get a lot more heat into the pot with the same instant response as gas with induction and a much simpler surface to clean. Simmer is easliy set on induction, even the most powerful burner without regard to pot or content size. Few gas burners do simmer well with all sizes of pots and volumes of water. An  induction cooktop costs a lot more though. 

It's worth talking to a number of different professional kitchen remodel people. Have them come out and give a bid, and check some of their design ideas for your space. It can be quite apparent who really knows what they're doing. I had about 4 or 5 different ones come out. Only one checked joists, power, water and gas lines and where they ran. The rest all said, sure we can do whatever you want, but it was clear to me that only one really understood the issues. And even still, I ended up with three extra beams and supports to do it right structurally. There's always some surprises once you start disassembling a structure.  He  cost more than the others, but his expertise was worth it.


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## sandsquid (Dec 23, 2013)

When the house was built I had a dedicated 220 Volt / 50 Amp electric circuit and a larger volume gas line to the stove area, for the eventual rebuild... 10 years later  we are deep in the throws a a complete gut to the bare walls and rebuild of our home kitchen.  After using a portable single induction countertop unit at school,  and then much research and deep contemplation I ended up going for an induction cooktop. It has been in for about 2 months now and I we both love it.  Once I stopped burning things from cranking it up too high, a bad habit from 10 years of cooking on an electric range, the induction is everything I ever hoped and dreamed.  I can bring 4 quarts of tap water to a rolling boil in under 4 minutes, or simmer a stock all day long.

The 2 thing I do not like about it is that the black ceramic shows every single water/oil/smudge spot, and it drives me batty.  

My wife likes it because I actually clean the top to a perfect gleaming streak and spot free after every use (For now, I'm sure that will change eventually.)  If I'm frying or doing any other really messy cooking, I actually put a large sheet of parchment or even newspaper down on the stove under the pan.  Yeah, it's a pretty neat trick and really impresses the neighbors, and makes for almost instant clean-up
 The other thing is, if you remove your pan, say to stir the ingredients or add some more, if the pan is not placed within 30 seconds, the zone will switch itself off.  But other than that, I'm really happy with it, and I honestly thought I would never be happy with anything other than a gas cooktop.


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Awesome thoughts phatch and SS... i'm currently in a house where I had a dedicated hi-volume propane line put in when we replaced our furnace.

Thinking a ton about it all now. 

Might be better to get an out-door single station propane burner for the party wok ~ 100K btu's and go for regular induction inside.

Seems way more practical than upgrading and improving all the exhaust, make-up air, fire walls, auto-extinguishers, floor re-inforcing, separate lines and all.

Another year before I do anything so I hope that the free standing ranges come down in price, at least for the good ones!


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## sandsquid (Dec 23, 2013)

I did learn that having an architect at least do a consult and a basic set of drawings can be highly beneficial and a cost (and sanity) saver in the long run.  My guy was able to divert a serious potential design flaw, and find me some more storage space and counter space that was otherwise being wasted.  My only regret is I wish I had him on board before the first hammer flew.  We could have eliminated another sore spot easily, and more cost effectively, than work around it.

I have a Blichmann Engineering stainless steel propane burner I use for home-brewing, turkey frying and stir-frying. Those fundtions are all relegated to out-doors.  It is only 72,000 BTU/Hr. but is plenty hot enough.  When I get around to re-designing and rebuilding the "nest" for my big green egg, it will be incorporated into the design.


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

phatch said:


> ...............As to induction vs gas: Gas stoves are about 33% efficient. So your hard to find 20K BTU burner is only putting 6600 BTUs into the pot. Induction is about 85% efficient. An easily found 3300 Watt burner on an induction cooktop is about 9500 BTUs into the pot. You get a lot more heat into the pot with the same instant response as gas with induction and a much simpler surface to clean. Simmer is easliy set on induction, even the most powerful burner without regard to pot or content size. Few gas burners do simmer well with all sizes of pots and volumes of water. An induction cooktop costs a lot more though.
> 
> *Yes I'm aware of this. Its just hard wrap my head around not having gas....but if you are happy with it I will seriously consider it.*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input...keep it coming. Can you tell me what induction set-up you have....size, brand, # of units, built-in?....


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

I have these....~ $40 and ~$75. They work very well generally but IMO the simmer sucks and it seem like sometimes they shut themselves off in the middle of a furious cook and I have to re-cycle the on/off switch.

These are cheapies so do the higher end ones work better? Other then all my copper cook ware I love to dump the gas.





  








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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

We did our own kitchen. I made a thread.

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/78413/old-kitchen-new-kitchen

We had to tear down the wall and soffit above the stove in order to get the ducting correct for the hood. We also needed to add 2x4's for bracing. It just takes time to patch, tape, mud,dry, sand, mud, sand, prime, paint. So figure three days for the patch job.

18,000 btu gas is fine for my needs. I would say it is fine for most. I still cook like I'm working the saute line so I had it set up for my style of cooking. Lots of pans and the grates make it easy to slide the pans around, and when I slide pans I generally don't like to be careful.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Those single induction burners are great for pastry side.  But remember if you have an induction stove there are tiny tricks you won't be able to do like roast peppers, warm the bottom of pans to release pastry, use a stove top grill, stuff like that.


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

This looks pretty cool-





  








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This single says 22,000BTU.... any idea on gas line size? or venting?





  








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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

kuan said:


> Those single induction burners are great for pastry side. But remember if you have an induction stove there are tiny tricks you won't be able to do like roast peppers, warm the bottom of pans to release pastry, use a stove top grill, stuff like that.


This is true, but there are simple solutions to most of it.

Peppers you can do under the broiler or with a torch. I agree it is less convenient.

The stove top grill, the cast iron grill /griddle or pans work well. With cast iron, you need to match the size of the pan to the burner as the poor conductivity of cast iron can make for a wildly unevenly heated pan.

For the pastry pan trick you just use the grill/griddle or large pan instead of directly on the burner.


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## sandsquid (Dec 23, 2013)

kuan said:


> http://www.cheftalk.com/t/78413/old-kitchen-new-kitchen


Looks like we have similar tastes and set-ups at least on the hot wall of the kitchen:
http://www.cheftalk.com/t/79975/as-long-as-we-are-here-we-might-as-well Though I went with John Boos, looked at Michigan Maple as well as Bally Block
I'm still waiting on the upper/wall cabinets to be made, and the base cabinet that arrived broken to be re-made.

The Induction range I went with is: Whirlpool[emoji]174[/emoji] 6.7 Total cu. ft. Double Oven Electric Range with Induction Cooktop


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The installation pdf says it needs a 3/4 inch line for natural gas for this one burner. http://www2.subzero-wolf.com/products/downloads/QRIM15.pdf It takes up a big chunk of the cabinet underneath too. You'd need multiple lines or a larger line for more burners if that's the path you want. Note also the 30" minimum above the burner for cabinet or hood mount. That's higher than you'll often see for home gear.

Rule of thumb for venting is 100 BTUs of heat generated by a cooking vessel, the blower in a hood should move 1 CFM of air. This isn't just for one burner though, consider your maximum simultaneous use of all burners.

However, you need to check to see what your local building codes require as well.


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## sandsquid (Dec 23, 2013)

phatch said:


> Peppers you can do under the broiler or with a torch. I agree it is less convenient.


I keep a Bernzomatic TS4000 - Trigger Start Torch on a propane bottle in the kitchen, for roasting peppers, and Creme Brulee, etc.
A second torch with a MAP bottle lives outside on the shelf of my grill table, great for lighting my propane burner without loosing knuckle hair, and gets my lump charcoal started in about 30 seconds.



> The stove top grill, the cast iron grill /griddle or pans work well. With cast iron, you need to match the size of the pan to the burner as the poor conductivity of cast iron can make for a wildly unevenly heated pan.


I have found my cast iron to be outstanding for use on the induction cooktop. Just made a wonderful Coq au Cidre for a potluck supper this past weekend in my largest Dutch oven, did all the normal steps and then slapped the lid on and hit the "simmer" button for 4 hours.


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

One other very serious consideration is your insurance provider.

Up here in the peoples republik of Kanada... you will find that your average home-owners insurance will not cover any 'industry', 'commercial' or 'professional' appliance no matter how it is installed. Nada...

Lots of people still do it but if you ever have a fire - they will not cover your claim, at all.

Certain companies may include a special rider, if it all meets commercial business codes but then you're paying quite a bit more each and every year.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

SandSquid said:


> Looks like we have similar tastes and set-ups at least on the hot wall of the kitchen:
> http://www.cheftalk.com/t/79975/as-long-as-we-are-here-we-might-as-well Though I went with John Boos, looked at Michigan Maple as well as Bally Block
> I'm still waiting on the upper/wall cabinets to be made, and the base cabinet that arrived broken to be re-made.
> 
> The Induction range I went with is: Whirlpool[emoji]174[/emoji] 6.7 Total cu. ft. Double Oven Electric Range with Induction Cooktop


Yeah hah. The butcher block is awesome.  I set up my kitchen to flow from prep side to plating side, and that huge sink man it makes life easy.


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

phatch said:


> ......... Personally, I'm happy to go pure induction. Simpler, better response and control.


What induction set-up do you have?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I have a commercial grade Burton single burner stand alone and a dished wok induction burner. Love them.


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## takingstock (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm thinking of a range top 30" with a dedicated area for individual induction burner(s). Its hard for me to totally get away from gas. The range top looks nicer then the cook top style and the area containing the cooking center will be very visible from the entire living are so I would like to make it a little showy.

Is it possible to put an oven under a range top? I really would not like to put the oven above counter level for esthetic reasons.





  








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