# Cant keep my wusthofs sharp for longer than a day



## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi,

I have a set of wusthof Ikons that i have been using for a while now.

I sharpen them using 3000 then 8000 grit whetstones. I never use my diamond steel or 1000 grit unless i really have to.

My problem is after about 3-4 hours of heavy prepping in the kitchen, today for example , (4 kilo of tomato con case, onions, mushrooms, 5 kilo calamari ect ect)

my knife is never as sharp as it is when i first sharpened it, 

i understand rockwell ratings and such but from such an expensive knife i expected it to retain sharp for longer,

Before service my knife would go through a ripe tomato like butter, at the end of service it slowly struggles and i would have to use more of a sawing motion with a bit more force.

My definition of sharp maybe different to everyone else, as soon as it doesnt go through a ripe tomato with pure ease i feel like it needs sharpening, however it can still but through paper cleanly

I just want to know if this is normal for the sharpness to deteriorate at this rate? 

Thanks


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## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)

I dont understand, i was always taught that the less micro serrations there are along the blade the longer the blade will stay sharp?

hence why you should use high grits and strops.

So wouldnt using a lower grit stone make it dull faster?

Ive researched a few ways to deburr, such as running a knife lightly along cork and the edge of cardboard, and very very lightly along a steel rod?

Also is it true that acidic fruits/veg will dull your knife even faster?


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

See if you can lay hands on some Arkansas stones and try those on the Wusthof. German steels don't retain that super refined edge from high grit waterstones.

A black Arkansas is as fine as you want to go.

Jim


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## allanm (Jan 20, 2011)

It really sounds like you are getting a wire edge and not deburring it properly.  I would suggest investing in a leather strop and some honing compound.

Also with high carbon I have had a knife rust after chopping lemons in the time it took me to put the lemons in pot before I got to wiping the blade.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

Jason -

the "high polish" is generally used by Japanese = thinner, lighter, harder steels.
although it is frequently touted as the ultimate in sharpening, based on my 30+yr use of Wuesthof Classics, I agree with Benuser - not likely the best thing for stainless.  quite in contrast, there are "respected opinions" that microserrations are a benefit to "the beingness of sharp"

I use the EdgePro system - using max 1000 grit stone.  keep in mind, comparing "grit numbers" can be tricky - there's no universal agreement on how one maker compares to another maker based solely on 'grit'

from you post I gather you are reluctant to steel the knives.  coupled with your typical usage - vegetable prep, lots of edge contact with wood(?) / plastic boards, I'd suggest much more frequent use of the smooth or lightly grooved steel.  I have the Wuesthof steel; it's rare that any of my knives don't get a quick swipe on the steel before every use.

the cutting/chopping board contact causes the edge to roll over some - a steel straightens the edge - and the blade is magically "sharper"  there are folks who feel plastic is worse than wood in this regard, in a commerical setting you may not have the option.

if you "compare" the amount of board contact when cutting up meat vs. vegetables,,,, may explain the perception that veggies are 'harder' on the edge.

in my case, just a home kitchen, a quick swipe on the steel and slicing up 2-3 tomatoes goes without issue.  but - similar as you have experienced - in the fall when I'm quartering tomatoes by the basketful in prep for canning/freezing - it's not unusual to steel the knife in mid-process.


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## anton kudris (Aug 7, 2013)

Hm… while German steel is softer then Japanese it still should hold much longer then just a few hours. I have a dirty cheap Ikea knife that's made from similar steel and it hold it's edge for weeks even despite some heavy abuse including frozen products, opening boxes, some light woodworking.

What I would do on your place is take 1000 stone and raise your angle (if you sharpened around 20 degrees before, then raise it to 25 or so). Maybe you are just using too acute angles, not suitable with softer steels. Or it may be a problem with improper deburring.

Just for a quick test, you can sharpen one of the knife with 25 degrees angle on 1000 and 3000 (using 3000 more for stropping) and see if it hold edge longer then your other knives. Try playing with different angles.


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## notswedishchef (Oct 24, 2013)

You can do 8k on a wusthof but why? Sounds like a few issues: 1. 3k as a starting stone is tough. You need to use a coarse stone to quickly raise your burr than deburr with cork/ felt, another stone, etc. I would use your 1k way more often and even look at picking up a 400-600 grit for reprofiling, etc.

2. Geometry. Have you ever thinned the knife? 

3. Get. a steel. Idahone 12" ceramic....... German knives benefit the best from steeling. 

I'd say without watching u sharpen/ cut...... Thin the cutting edge slightly, go 1k than 3k, deburr, and use a non diamond steel..... You can easily get through service.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

KnifeSavers said:


> See if you can lay hands on some Arkansas stones and try those on the Wusthof. German steels don't retain that super refined edge from high grit waterstones.
> 
> A black Arkansas is as fine as you want to go.
> 
> Jim


I highly recommend Hall's Pro Edge for Arkansas stones. That's where I got mine including the ultra fine black surgical bench stone measuring 11" x 3".


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## anton kudris (Aug 7, 2013)

Guys why are you recommending Arkansas stones when OP clearly wrote that he already own 1k, 3k and 8k stones? Do you really think another stone is what he needs here?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Anton Kudris said:


> Guys why are you recommending Arkansas stones when OP clearly wrote that he already own 1k, 3k and 8k stones? Do you really think another stone is what he needs here?


Do arkansas act like waterstones?


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## anton kudris (Aug 7, 2013)

kokopuffs said:


> Do arkansas act like waterstones?


Never used them, but I was thinking that yes, they do pretty much the same - they remove metal. What am I missing here?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Anton Kudris said:


> Never used them, but I was thinking that yes, they do pretty much the same - they remove metal. What am I missing here?


Not ever having used waterstones, I was thinking that perhaps they leave a different profile at the bevel.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

Anton Kudris said:


> Guys why are you recommending Arkansas stones when OP clearly wrote that he already own 1k, 3k and 8k stones? Do you really think another stone is what he needs here?


Possibly. German blades tend to hold the edge from Arkansas better than the super fine edge off high grit waterstones. I said he should find someone with Arkies and do his knife on them and see how it performs.

BDL on of the resident sharpening gurus has said he does western knives using a Norton IB-8 oilstone followed by a Soft Arkansas and Black Arkansas.

They hold the edge from that better than a waterstone edge.

NotSwedishChef covered the other possible factors. The main one is to try a fine conventional steel and ditch the diamond steel. IMO they are far too aggressive and remove far too much metal so rather than realigning the edge, diamond hones rip it off.

Jim


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## anton kudris (Aug 7, 2013)

KnifeSavers said:


> BDL on of the resident sharpening gurus has said he does western knives using a Norton IB-8 oilstone followed by a Soft Arkansas and Black Arkansas.
> 
> They hold the edge from that better than a waterstone edge.
> 
> ...


Can you maybe direct me somewhere to read details? Cause right now I can't really understand how it works.

Here's my way of thinking: the basic idea of sharpening is scratching blade over some surface (usually stone) and thus removing blade steel. Different surfaces (i.e. different stones) would leave different scratch surfaces (with more or less teeth). But that would mostly affect how good or bad edge bites, not the edge retention. 
I think edge retention would depend more on the shape of edge (i.e. depend on the sharpening angle) and on proper deburring. :-\

Would be very grateful if you point me where am I missing.

I can see a lot of room for personal preferences here… BDL has his preferences, but that doesn't means they would be the best for other people.

BTW what happened to BDL? Haven't seen him here for months


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## simar (Oct 17, 2013)

If your blade isn't retaining its edge from a days worth of work, maybe you should look into changing the shape of the edge.  A slightly fatter edge (while not as sharp) will stay sharper for longer.  Also, how refined you make the edge will have some effect on the life, however, depending on the steel used there are practical limitations of how far you can take it.  If you are going to look at a heavy use cutter, you might want to look at the steel as well as ergonomics next time.  I am a fan of VG10 (for ease of sharpening and its keen edge) in stainless and blue super in carbon (for its hardness and keen edge).


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## gybognarjr (Dec 18, 2013)

I fully agree with Dilbert.  The steel used of Wüsthof knives isn't as hard as Japanese blade steel, so frequent use of the smooth steel (I use smooth or lightly grooved steel) is beneficial.  I use the after about a half hour constant work with the knife, as I am too cheap to buy a very expensive cutting board.  (I use wood boards but net the expensive kind.)


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Certain steels require a rougher edge as opposed to polished.


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## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)

NotSwedishChef said:


> You can do 8k on a wusthof but why? Sounds like a few issues: 1. 3k as a starting stone is tough. You need to use a coarse stone to quickly raise your burr than deburr with cork/ felt, another stone, etc. I would use your 1k way more often and even look at picking up a 400-600 grit for reprofiling, etc.


Explain? why wouldnt i use an 8k to finish? isnt that what you do when sharpening? i thought the basics were to start with a low grit ( depending on how dull your knife actually is ) then work towards mirror polish?

My knife gets dull but never to a point where i have to use a 1k stone, 3k is sufficient.


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## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)

kokopuffs said:


> Certain steels require a rougher edge as opposed to polished.


I didnt know this, can you explain further to why this is?

I was told that "big" micro serrations on a blade are more likely to break off/ dull quicker, rather than a blade that has a mirror edge finish


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

What angle are you using when sharpening?


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## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> What angle are you using when sharpening?


 I would say somwhere between 20-15 degree


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

As far as I know, for wusthof ikons, you should be sharpening at 14 degrees.

From the prep you described, I would expect my knife to keep it's edge for about 4 days with occasionally steeling.

When sharpening, 2-3 degrees may not seem like much, but it does make a difference especially in terms of edge retention. Pay attention and really try to hit the 14 degree next time you are sharpening and see if it makes a difference.

Either way, i would appreciate you letting me know because it helps me to learn.


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## mhpr262 (Dec 6, 2013)

First check for a burr after sharpening by holding the knife under a lamp and looking at the knife "edge on", if there is anything that reflects light you have a burr or a rolled edge. Or you didn't grind far enough down to remove all the worn parts of the old blunt edge.

If you see nothing then drag a woollen string or thread over the edge, with the edge "trailing" so to speak, and this along the whole lenght of the edge. This will show you the slightest burr.

also, you aren't using the edge of the knife to scrape stuff off the cutting board are you ... that will wear out your edge real quick.


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## notswedishchef (Oct 24, 2013)

8k is a great polish but as soon as you cut something coarse or fibrous, or use a steel, you're basically blowing your polish.......your go-to guyuto finished between 3-5k is more than adequate.  I take my slicer/ yanagi's higher (10Kish) but my workhorse guyuto is between 3-5k.  Having a slightly "toothy" edge ....read 3k-ish is a good choice for producing a durable/ solid cutting tool.  As others have said, German steel doesn't really benefit from a high level of polish...it'll look pretty.....but the edge is going to need fairly frequent steeling with either a ceramic steel or polish (f dick, glass, etc). to maintain the edge......so again, why polish to 8k when you're going to be using a 1-2k ceramic to scuff the edge? 

I'm sure that if you added the use of a high qaulity steel (not diamond) to your day-to-day maintenance..you'll be able to prolong your time away from the stones thereby increasing the knifes life and keeping $$ in your pocket.

I use a lot of japanese knives but I have a few vintage sabs......my idahone and polished dick are always in play with them and they routinely surprise people with the level of sharpness.....I'm not sharpening them everday either.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

long story, shaggy bits follow....
I bought my first Wuesthofs in 1985. 
up until July 2011 I free-handed them on non-descript oil stones.
I got unhappy with how sharp they were not, so I got the EdgePro system - which gives one a pretty dang close 'accuracy' as to

"exact" angle but more importantly a consistency over the length.

so then I went looking for "and what angle should they be sharpened to?"
oops.
a lot of conflicting information, including from the 7th Generation Head-of-the-Stuff

see:
http://knives.cooking.com/guide/q-a-with-harald-wusthof/#.UrXiF-IU9X8
http://www.wusthof.com/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-23/52_view-167/categories-167/country-usa/wlang-2/
http://leadingedgeknives.com/petec.html

I went looking for the "factory angle" - I dimly recall finding a blanket type 25 degree recommendation on the Wuesthof site, way

back when ... and I was seriously disappointed . . .

just compare "cited" angles . . . not a pretty batch of recommendations.

basically seems to be it boils down to "go forth and multiple your experience, then go with what works for you"

so here's mine:
I have found taking my 6-8-10 inch Wuesthof chefs knives anything past 20 degress is a losing proposition.
they cannot "hold" those acute angles.
the 8 inch sees the heaviest use.

my slicers and utility knives get much lighter usage and those I have had good luck sharpening down to 14-15 degrees.

the 7 inch santuko gets the heaviest use of anything in the block; it's a recent addition so perhaps the basic steel is a bit

harder than the 1985 vintage stuff - dunno - but that I keep as less than 15 degrees - which seems to hold up - with regular

steeling - 6-9 months.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Had a similar problem with my past Germans and ultimately it wasn't what I was sharpening with (not wet stones but oil at the time) but the combination of angle and steel. 

Since I had decreased the total edge angle because I wasn't fully happy with stock angle performance going backwards wasn't an option, and I ended up going Japanese where the steel would handle the steeper angles, accept a much higher polish (and see improved performance from it) and as a additional plus ended up holding the edge much longer. 

Now I did sell all my old Germans to help cover my change, but I kept a set of Mundial which are a bit softer steel for guest use etc and actually found they work better with a slightly higher angle than original. There isn't any comparison with my J knives, but they still cut and get the job done. Plus I don't hardly ever need to sharpen them though that could be from reduced expectations and the fact I rarely use them.

I think the OP is as I was expecting too much from his Western knives, and has pushed them beyond their limit. 

The real decision now is weather to take them back to where they were happy and accept them et or move on to a steel that will accept the additional efforts and reward you with increased performance. 

And you don't have to go to Japanese to get improved steel, and there are many options


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## jasonjjj (Jun 5, 2013)




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## weige knives (Apr 16, 2014)

I love this thread and hope I can help. I have sharpened many Wusthof knives for many chefs and I've never had one come across my bench that wasn't bent somewhere along the blade. The problem with keeping this knife sharp is the inferior steel being used. On most of these knives you will the formula: X50CrMoV15. This stands for 0.5% carbon, which is very low. The carbon content is what helps retain the edge. The other part of that imprint is 15% chromium and unspecified but smaller amounts of molybdenum and vanadium which is keeping your knife shiny.

I have used every type of stone mentioned on this thread including leather strops and hones. The tool is not as important as the method used. I wouldn't get too pent up or spend hours going through different stones when the issue is the steel.

Also, I am not a fan of a fatter edge. Factory knives come with an edge of somewhere between 20-30 degrees. Any time I get my hands on a Wusthof or a Henckel knife I re-edge the knife to 10-15 degrees and recommend the chef use a simple hone when the edge begins to dull. I've never had a complaint.

I hope this helps.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

In reference to the two above posts (in order)

The difference between home and constant pro use is thousands of contacts with the board, and most chopping or rocking techniques would seem to be causing your edge (or burr or wire) to roll over. Plus at home we normally have more time and are less hurried and don't put our knives through the same abuse etc etc. 

I'm still on the fence if this comment was serious or sarcasm "and I didn't expect them to blunt a bit" as all knives dull, but I also know my expectations were well above the ability of my previous Henkel knives. 

"Also, I am not a fan of a fatter edge. "Factory knives come with an edge of somewhere between 20-30 degrees. Any time I get my hands on a Wusthof or a Henckel knife I re-edge the knife to 10-15 degrees and recommend the chef use a simple hone when the edge begins to dull. I've never had a complaint."

I guess that's good if you like sharpening etc but it was after I purchased a Pro-S Santuko and started going lower on the angles and then adapting this to the chefs and others that I found just how poorly the steel holds up under 22 deg.

It was getting sick of touching them up almost daily and sharpening weekly for home use that got me looking for J knives in the first place. 

I know we all have different experiences, but that was mine.


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## yes chef (Jun 24, 2015)

i own the same knives and let me say you are not the only one with this problem. i tried whetstones, tri stones, i have around $900 in sharpening instruments. so what works well its so obvious everyone is overlooking the answer.

PEtech sharpener from chef choice, a strop, and yes get a ceramic steel you will not regret it for service. you will be able to slice bread with no crumbs and a ripe tomato will be effort less. 

This is what works for me. i can cook all day and at the end the day the knife is sharp as i started.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I never chimed in on this somewhat old post but will reaffirm that Arks leave a more durable edge on soft stainless than waterstones.  If you use a translucent Ark you will probably have to roughen its surface because they are so fine and slow sharpening otherwise. 

But for pro kitchen service the only viable solution to get through a full day with a Wusthof is the Idahone already suggested.  And when full-scale sharpening make sure to raise a good burr to insure all the fatigued steel is removed.

Rick


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## chefanthonyd (Jan 15, 2015)

I must agree with the others, Wusthof doesn't like 2000...8000... grit stones. I never go over 1000. I've been using the same Wusthof Chef for 16 years now.

When I sharpen it I run it over a 1000 grit whetstone, that's it. It'll go through a tomato like a hot knife through butter.


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## chris8 (Jul 8, 2015)

Hi, what angle are you using to sharpen the Wusthof on the 1000 grit stone ? Thanks.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

chris8 said:


> Hi, what angle are you using to sharpen the Wusthof on the 1000 grit stone ? Thanks.


I never understood why folks think this. Try taking it to 6K, and do your touch ups on that 6K using stropping strokes. I don't care how soft your stainless is, it's a ridiculously huge improvement over 1K.

I have an Ikon I finish on a hard translucent Ark (about a 10K finish) and it is a significant improvement over the 6K.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I think carbide loss is more a function of how acute the angle is, but yes, a keener edge also acts like a steeper edge to some extent.

Of all my soft stainless knives the Ikon is the only one that can reasonably hold a 24deg/inclusive edge, and that with just light board contact.  It still cuts very well with a steeper micro-bevel.  Finished with the Ark, or even a few stropping strokes on the 6K, I can cut 0.5mm slices of celery, onions to 0.7, but only when I get lucky.  The edge is pretty thin of course. Wusties HT of the X50CrMo crap is really significantly better than the other German manufacturers, at the loss of some toughness, which really should be no problem at all for the relatively controlled environment of a home kitchen.

At close to 30deg/side it is remarkable how well even my softest knife holds an edge, especially with a polished finish.  I can't slice celery to 0.5mm, but oh well, it still cuts reasonably thin.  With my softest knife I could whack through more than a few chicken bones and still have an edge that could cut.

Edge thickness here needs to be .25mm minimum, or you'll put a divet in the edge if you so much as touch a bone, .35 being more reasonable for knives in the 55RC and under category.  Though for whacking through chicken bones you really need it a little thicker than that I think.

Rick


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## full sack (Oct 19, 2014)

Wusthof sells a combination sharpening stone: 1000/3000.  Assuming Wusthof tested various grit combinations, on their steel, a 3000 grit hone, after using the 1000 grit, to establish a new primary edge, might be the best way to go.  

I sharpen Wusthofs at a low angle, after a lot of thinning.  Too high of an angle, shortens the primary edge and the life of the sharpening.


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## full sack (Oct 19, 2014)

"Too high of an angle, shortens the primary edge and the life of the sharpening."  

The distance from the beginning of the primary edge to the beginning of the secondary edge is made longer by sharpening the knife with its spine closer to the sharpening stone.  The angle, of the primary edge, becomes more acute the smaller that sharpening angle.


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## mrmnms (Nov 28, 2012)

Benuser understands sharpening very well. Just don't quite understand the explanation. It sounds like your suggesting that raising the spine creates too short a bevel . Some knives perform well with a small bevel at the edge. Lots of knives are thinned at 12 to 15 degrees per side with a small micro bevel of 18 to 20 degrees.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If full sack will review his first statement I'm sure he'll understand our perplexity with it.


Rick


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## full sack (Oct 19, 2014)

Mrmnms said:


> Benuser understands sharpening very well. Just don't quite understand the explanation. It sounds like your suggesting that raising the spine creates too short a bevel . Some knives perform well with a small bevel at the edge. Lots of knives are thinned at 12 to 15 degrees per side with a small micro bevel of 18 to 20 degrees.


Yes, that was what I was suggesting, though it could have been worded better.

Continual sharpening, of the primary edge, without thinning, creates a more obtuse angle, thus decreasing cutting performance. That's been my experience with the Wusthof.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

If the edge has been de-tempered by aggressive grinding just once. All the best steel and sharpening skills are meaningless. Just throw the knife away. It is permanently ruined.

Perhaps that is what happened to OP's knife.

dcarch


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