# Genoise or Chiffon?



## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

Black forest cakes are on the rise again. 
(A coffee shop must) 
So...
The type of cake is the question in my mind. 

Should I use a genoise chocolate or a chiffon chocolate cake for it? Both have their benefits and detractors. A genoise is more durable if soaked enough but a chiffon is already moist so you have to be careful with how much syrup you use (of course you have to increase the spirit content you use) 

Trying to make a call and stick with it...but my indecision is driving me nuts on this one. 

Either way I go the cake is liked more if it's NSFW. Everyone is working out of office these days so "booze breath" is not as important anymore. (Except for the Baptist Preachers)

Any thoughts?


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

JohnDB said:


> Black forest cakes are on the rise again.
> (A coffee shop must)
> So...
> The type of cake is the question in my mind.
> ...


I think you should just make each cake and assemble them into your version of a black forest and do a taste test. That's the only way to really know. Everything we could offer here would just be a matter of personal opinion. As an example, I would lean toward chiffon, because for me, chiffon is a lot less fussy and tastes better overall (to me). I've made plenty of genoise but have never been too impressed by it knowing that it isn't that great without a soak. So that could mean you might actually prefer a genoise because you plan to liquor it up liberally anyway. You can do that with chiffon too of course. You also have to factor in food cost and labor time into that equation as well (not to mention skill level of employees to pull off a consistent product). All that criteria taken together will give you your final answer.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

chefpeon said:


> I think you should just make each cake and assemble them into your version of a black forest and do a taste test. That's the only way to really know. Everything we could offer here would just be a matter of personal opinion. As an example, I would lean toward chiffon, because for me, chiffon is a lot less fussy and tastes better overall (to me). I've made plenty of genoise but have never been too impressed by it knowing that it isn't that great without a soak. So that could mean you might actually prefer a genoise because you plan to liquor it up liberally anyway. You can do that with chiffon too of course. You also have to factor in food cost and labor time into that equation as well (not to mention skill level of employees to pull off a consistent product). All that criteria taken together will give you your final answer.


Yeah....the reproduction is always a concern. 
As time goes by I figured I would develop methods for ensuring precise results. The big boys do it by standardized equipment, procedures, smallwares and ingredients.

I'm very focused on repeatable results. I'm getting too long in tooth to be doing it all anymore. Used to be able to do the work of three to four....now I'm down to about two and a half. Gonna have to be able to get others to repeat the results.

But I also am focused on customer acceptance and desirability as well. Starbucks centralized bakery and coffee roasting has standardized themselves into becoming a joke of acceptable quality.

I don't know of many professionals that cannot do better than they can.

And I am just trying to fill my time by playing before construction starts or stalls during negotiations of buying an existing bakery.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

For me, the heavier and denser the sponge, the better for Black Forest. I used to do a buttermilk double chocolate cake which absorbed well, held up the sour cherry filling and the whipped cream well, and froze( plain, unsliced) well.

For me, the hardest part was getting decent sour cherries—canned or frozen, and getting Kirsch. We have some really weird booze laws here, and what’s commonly available from suppliers is salted ( unacceptable, period) or gelled, resembling Dutch mountain dwarf snot, and very hard to turn into soaking syrup.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

I designed a chiffon (easier to reproduce) and assembled the cake. 

Right on the money. Might could use a bit more mopping with syrup next time but it was fairly unnoticeable. 

So method was simple enough. 

The one thing I couldn't leave alone was the stabilized whipped cream. Had to test out an idea. So I tried to stabilize it with xanthan gum instead of cooked cornstarch in the cream or gelatin. 

And it actually worked nicely. 
I tempered it in with the sugar and whipped it up. It has held solidly with no texture issues or taste issues. 

½tsp per 2¼ cups of 40% cream. 

The stuff is supposed to be magic...and at this point I'm tending to agree. It was fast and easy. Just mix it with the sugar to keep it from clumping because it thickens the second it hits moisture. The cream isn't separating or weeping or doing anything but being exactly what I piped. I even added melted chocolate to some stabilized cream and it's held well too without going off. 

So if someone else wants to know...that's yet another way to easily and effectively stabilize whipped cream.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

And yes, it made me want a cup of coffee to go with.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

JohnDB said:


> I designed a chiffon (easier to reproduce) and assembled the cake.
> 
> Right on the money. Might could use a bit more mopping with syrup next time but it was fairly unnoticeable.
> 
> ...


I've got a ton of Xanthan Gum and I'm kicking myself for not thinking about its use in stabilizing whipped cream since I've always defaulted to gelatin out of habit. I'm gonna switch, like, right now. And thanks for the ratios!


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

chefpeon said:


> I've got a ton of Xanthan Gum and I'm kicking myself for not thinking about its use in stabilizing whipped cream since I've always defaulted to gelatin out of habit. I'm gonna switch, like, right now. And thanks for the ratios!


I know that feeling so well....the obvious staring at me every day and I absolutely miss it on an ongoing basis.


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## retiredbaker (Dec 29, 2019)

I'd use genoise or devil food cake and cheapo cherry brandy by DeKuyper.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

Cake for my wife's birthday....
Just checking the picture uploads out....


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

The Black forest I made....went with a pseudo genoise that was an almost chiffon cake. (So it would hold the syrup. 

I went too tall with 4 layers instead of three. 
And it looks a bit wonky but I'll get more practiced when I do 3 cakes at a time. 

But for an isolated cake it was fairly decent.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

JohnDB said:


> View attachment 116114
> 
> 
> The Black forest I made....went with a pseudo genoise that was an almost chiffon cake. (So it would hold the syrup.
> ...


Nice! I hope you plan on a little more garnish with some shaved chocolate or some cherries on top. It needs something else.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

chefpeon said:


> Nice! I hope you plan on a little more garnish with some shaved chocolate or some cherries on top. It needs something else.


Actually I did plan on exactly that....however the grocery was out of cherries and I did good to find a chocolate bar. (Thought I was going to have to make my own from the callets I got)

So I got pissy about it all started cussing out our current politicians and ranting and raving while my wife got really hungry. 
She didn't care about the shavings and extra cherries. While I was ranting at no one, she just whacked off a slice and then brewed up a pot of coffee and suggested that I join her. 

So I took a taste of hers and....then I wanted a slice and a cup of coffee too. 

Then I took the remaining half of a cake (notice how little was left?) to my business partner who never had a decent Black Forest cake before and his family demolished it with cuppaccino....
(He's working on his latte artwork)

So the chocolate bar is still in the fridge and the store finally got cherries back in stock. But the cake is gone and then I started working on whole wheat bread ratios and test batches....

Finished painting the rondo dough sheeter and picked up the bread slicer that came with a surprise 4-strap Pullman loaf pan with lid. 

Was going to try to fill it and bake off four test loaves of whole wheat pain de mie and found out in the nick of time that it's ½ inch too big for my household oven. Uggghhhh....

Meanwhile my truck's radiator took a dump so it's in the shop and all I got is my wife's car she never drives. 

So....I completely agree that it needs help with the garnishes. And otherwise I did the due diligence of tracking and costing the endeavor. (Of course prices of materials are now all crap)

But I live in hope....
You know....hope....it floats....
Like a turd on the Sea of Despair.


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

JohnDB said:


> Actually I did plan on exactly that....however the grocery was out of cherries and I did good to find a chocolate bar. (Thought I was going to have to make my own from the callets I got)
> 
> So I got pissy about it all started cussing out our current politicians and ranting and raving while my wife got really hungry.
> She didn't care about the shavings and extra cherries. While I was ranting at no one, she just whacked off a slice and then brewed up a pot of coffee and suggested that I join her.
> ...


Well you got the really important part covered......how it tastes! Garnish is the easy part. Over in my neck of the woods, would you believe my local grocery was completely out of buttermilk and heavy cream? Random shortages of items is really stressing me out these days.


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

chefpeon said:


> Well you got the really important part covered......how it tastes! Garnish is the easy part. Over in my neck of the woods, would you believe my local grocery was completely out of buttermilk and heavy cream? Random shortages of items is really stressing me out these days.


No kidding....I'm used to having a few dinner parties a month with my various friends. I do all kinds of prep and show up and finish cooking off a gourmet dinner in their kitchen. Completely informal type deal just to socialize. Tiramisu or tart tatin or whatever for dessert....good stuff. 
Their kids get to play and "help". 

I've been terrified at trying because of the supply chain issues. Sure I got saffron and rice but shellfish? Maybe they are out of garlic or onions....maybe chicken....it's insane what I might need and they run out of lately.

Now it's COVID-19 time again and many of my friends are sick. 
Like I said....hope floats....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

[QUOTE="JohnDB, Meanwhile my truck's radiator took a dump so it's in the shop and all I got is my wife's car she never drives.[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, driving the wife’s car... 
(She) “What are you doing!”
“Going to the closest gas station” (pointing at the dashboard)
“Oh, that stupid little oil light? It’s been on for weeks, the car runs just fine”
Me, my palm firmly smacking my forehead......


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

foodpump said:


> [QUOTE="JohnDB, Meanwhile my truck's radiator took a dump so it's in the shop and all I got is my wife's car she never drives.


Ah yes, driving the wife’s car...
(She) “What are you doing!”
“Going to the closest gas station” (pointing at the dashboard)
“Oh, that stupid little oil light? It’s been on for weeks, the car runs just fine”
Me, my palm firmly smacking my forehead......
[/QUOTE]
Yeah....
I know that story so well....

It's an axiom that keeps repeating itself. 

Like when the kids grow up and finally leave home the only things they seem to remember is every mistake I ever made (real or imagined) and the Netflix password.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Don’t really want to hijack the thread, but I probably am...

I always told my kids they were welcome to stay with us as long as they were either working or going to school. What I forgot to include was to help out a bit with groceries. We starved our youngest out of the house when he was 20. It wasn’t intentional, but several events “ just happened” and we kinda/sorta starved him out...

The first event was when my wife went on one of her 3 month long vegan diets, this never really bothered me as I ate at work and got home too late for any kind of meals.
So, he started to complain about “ nothing to eat”. He was working and earning a decent salary, but was spending money on the typical stuff 20-somethings buy. He caught me in a snarky mood with that complaint and I told him, “ Fine . Lets go shopping. Bring your wallet.” Didn’t go over to well.
The second event was when a neighbor was having a garage sale and practically begged me to take a mini- bar fridge off of his hands for a toonie( Cdn $2.00 coin). The thing was so ugly I had to put it in the garage behind the table saw. I plugged it in and it worked. That was when I started to put all of my “ beverages” in that fridge which was almost completely camouflaged by paint cans and scrap lumber. Totally unintentional, I swear.

And then I “forgot” to replace the el-cheapo $99.00 microwave that he destroyed in the now unforgettable “ burrito incident”. I even offered to drive down to Mal*Wart to get a replacement, but it seems it was never really a priority.

And then, as if by magic, he and a couple of buddies decided to rent a crappy ( really crappy) basement suite for the summer. Which morphed into almost two years, until his girlfriend finally convinced him to rent something, well, something a little “ nicer” ( I really liked that girl!).

Sorry to digress, back to dark chocolate and cherries.....


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## JohnDB (10 mo ago)

foodpump said:


> Don’t really want to hijack the thread, but I probably am...
> 
> I always told my kids they were welcome to stay with us as long as they were either working or going to school. What I forgot to include was to help out a bit with groceries. We starved our youngest out of the house when he was 20. It wasn’t intentional, but several events “ just happened” and we kinda/sorta starved him out...
> 
> ...


No worries...
That line of 
_I work to live
Vs
I live to work_ 
Gets a bit blurry at times. We live with and for our families. They are our test subjects for our "great" creations as well as our reality check for when our heads get too big for our hats. For all the places we work and people that we work with our families are always the underlying reason we do what we do.


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