# I can't brown in my oven.



## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

Ok, I searched 'artisan bread' recipe in the net. I have tried to do so far but aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalways, I can't seem to brown my bread. Twice this had happened. Also on pizza doughs, they all look pale. I tried cooking em longer but the bottom crust just burns even if I put them in the middle rack. I want to make some good bread for my mom but I cant seem tog et it


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

It's hard to say, without knowing your procedure and recipe. But at a guess, I'd say you're probably working at too low a temperature.

Browning is actually a caramelization process. Natural sugars in the dough rise to the surface, and the heat caramelizes them.

You can also promote browning by brushing the dough with various ingredients: milk, olive oil, egg wash, etc. Each of them brings a different depth of color and tone to the crust, so it pays to experiment.

Anyway, if you let us know exactly what you're doing we might be in a better position to help.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Whats the total volume of your oven chamber.  When my oven at 5500 cubic inch capacity was swapped out with one having 8500 cubic inch capacity, foods never browned as well and I needed to increase the bread baking temperature from 450F to 550F (for part of the bake time) in order to get things to brown properly.  This assumes an electric oven.

Methinks that with a smaller oven capacity, browing improves.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Did you stop and wonder if in fact your thermostat is not off or broken???


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

It's not a bad idea to check your oven temperatures. Easy and cheap to perform; get yourself an oventhermometer and check.

Don't use a meat thermometer like I did... yeah, I did.


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

I agree on the oven temp check. Our oven was giving us problems and we adjusted the temp.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Either the oven is not heating enough (thermostat broken) or possibly you aren't pre-heating enough.  you need to preheat enough to get the oven to the temperature you need for the recipe. 

One way to get a nice crust, in any case, is to use the cast iron pot that you heat up in the oven an hour before baking - put the bread in it and cover, and it makes a wonderful crackly crust.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Put some sugar on a piece of aluminum foil, put in oven at 400*  see if it carmelizes or burns in 7 minutes.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I've read at TheFreshLoaf.com that there as some home bakers who bake their loaves in a Romertoff (sp?), sort of a ceramic dutch oven and it gives a very delightful crust.


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

This is the only example I have. I have another one but the picture is very dark.



Those are actually cream puffs. I didn't brush them with anything. The bread I made was paler than this. The recipe I used for the bread I was talking about was 300g flour, 3/4 cups water yeast and salt. Baked until brown in 220c but... it didn't brown. The flour dusting on top of the bread did not brown at all but the ones on the pan DID brown and almost burned.

The size of our oven is 90cm. There's no digital thermostat, just a knob that indicates the temp. I'm actually eying on buying an in-oven thermometer but so far, all of my baked goods turns out fine, except for browned breads.

If someone can give me a recipe for a good bread (just a small yielding recipe please) then please go ahead. I will try it ASAP and post here the results.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

How to check oven (or refrigerator) temperature:

Get a few identical glass or metal containers and fill them up with equal amounts of oil. Place them in different locations inside your oven.

Set the temperature. Wait about 30 minutes and check the temperature with a thermometer of each of the containers. You will find out how accurate and how even your oven temperature is.

Or get a remote read IR thermometer ( some are about $35.00). You can read surface temperature from a distance.

dcarch


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## Apprentichef (Oct 21, 2010)

Those look tasty. It could just be a case of not cooking them long enough, or as mentioned above, not preheating enough. You will always want to heat your oven for at least 20 minutes before dropping in your bread/pizza/whatever. I normally go 40+ minutes. Always use a seperate internal oven thermometer because ovens will lie to you.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

reyesryanmjaube said:


> This is the only example I have. I have another one but the picture is very dark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I pade pate a choux (cream puff dough) that were baked in a gas oven, the puffs turned out much yellower/browner than yours.

Also which kind of flour did you use:

high in starch/low in protein? (like cake/pastry flour and also Swan's Down?)
low in starch/high in protein? (like AP or bread flour)?
Dough/s browning can depend on starch content. And low protein flours are usually high in starch, like cake and pastry flour. Here in America you can get either one including a high starch flour that's called Swan's Down.

Here in the deep south, southeast Georgia, I get a flour that's really high in starch and low in protein: White Lily Flour, the light baking flour. It's protein content is 2g/serving whereas all-purpose flour usually clocks in at 4g/serving. The former being higher in starch than the latter and the former seems to brown better.


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

I think it doesn't have to do anything to do with the flour I'm using cause it happens almost every time. But yeah, I used plain bread flour


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Trust me It's not the flour.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I vote with Ed on this. It's not the flour.
[*]Reyesryanmjaube, tell us more about the pate choux. Was it cooked through, light, and airy? Only the color being off? [*] [*]Pate choux is typically baked at high heat, both to affect the puffiness and to create a beautiful golden-brown color. A typical baking procedure would be to start at 425F, then, after a period of time, lower the temp to 375F. If your oven isn't reaching, and maintaining those temps, lack of color could easily be a result. [*] [*]Brushing the puffs with milk before baking will help the color develop. But, at base, I really think you need to check your oven temperatures. In home ovens the actual temperature vs. what the knob says can often vary by as much as 25 degrees. Add another 25 degrees for the cycling range, and you could be significantly off. [*] [*]Ideally, you'll get a couple of oven thermometers (they're only a couple of bucks each) and measure the temperature in several places, as there often are hot and/or cold spots as well. [*]


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I partly disagree.  IT COULD BE THE FLOUR.  Why do you think that white bread toasts faster therefore easier that whole wheat flour/bagel flour when placed in the toaster??????

And yes, it could be the baking temperatures as well.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Does it really, Kokopuffs? It's not something I ever paid much attention to. I imagine if there is a difference, though, it's just a matter of seconds??

I have a bagels setting on my toaster, which automatically effects the strength and direction of the heat, so that wouldn't count in making a comparison. One of these days I'll have to put a slice each of white and wheat in mine to see if there's a difference.

However, assuming your point is valid (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), we aren't comparing various finished breads. The expressed problem is that no bread browns in that particular oven. And the OP is using standard bread flour each time. Being as all other things are effectively equal, there are only three ways to increase the crust color: 1. Brush on a coating (milk, egg wash, oil, etc.); 2. increase the heat; or, 3. increase the length of baking time.

Numbers 1 and 3 can have other effects on the finished product, beyond merely darkening the surface. And, from what I gather, proven recipes are being used each time. If that's true, the breads should brown with no problem. Which is why my best guess is that the oven temperature is not what the OP thinks it is.

Choice of flour can certainly affect the finished product. For instance, we wouldn't want to use bread flour for making biscuits. And all-purpose usually is a better choice for pate choux. But those have other effects. The final products should still have a browned surface. For instance, using bread flour to make biscuits would result in a beautiful, golden-brown hockey puck.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

> ...at base, I really think you need to check your oven temperatures. In home ovens the actual temperature vs. what the knob says can often vary by as much as 25 degrees. Add another 25 degrees for the cycling range, and you could be significantly off..


I respectfully disagree with the temperature variation. In my experience as a personal chef, residential oven can vary as much as 150°F from the thermostat setting, whether gas or electric, 25°F is optimistic at best!

Part of my initial assessment for a new client is creating a calibration chart for their oven(s) and it is a RARE situation that the thermostat and actual oven temperature are close, let alone spot on.

Before attempting any changes to recipes, ingredients, or techniques, spend a few $$$ and get an oven thermometer, generally they cost around $3 to $5 at the outside.

Once you have an oven thermometer, make a calibration chart so you can quickly determine what setting will result in the desired temperature


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

150 degrees, Pete? I'd suggest that if an oven was that far off there's more than calibration involved. Either the thermostat is broke, or something else is out of whack.

But even if you take my figures as a "best case" scenario, a typical oven can still be way off. Let's say it's running 25 degrees cool. That means at the bottom of its cycle it will be 50 degrees low. Quite ironic when you hear people arguing whether 325 vs 350 is the best temperature for a particular dish.

The important point that we're both making, however, is that any resemblence to the theromstat setting and the actual temperature is purely coincidental. Using thermometers that measure the real temperature should be the first thing a baker does. And, as I noted above, because most ovens have hot- and cold-spots, several thermometers make sense.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

KYH, the 150°F oven had both a calibration error AND a goofy knob! It was off 150°F if you turned it up, but only 70°F if you turned it down /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif, and it was an older, analog, gas oven to boot!

I've seen numerous older ovens off calibration by 50-75°F and, with the exception of some of the newer digital ovens, a 15-30°F error is not unusual, in my experience.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Pete:_ had both a calibration error AND a goofy knob! It was off 150°F if you turned it up, but only 70°F if you turned it down _

KYH:_ I'd suggest that if an oven was that far off there's more than calibration involved._

Proving, once again, that even a blind pig finds an acorn now and again. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif

You'd think than anyone who could afford the services of a private chef could afford to replace a poorly operating oven. But, what do I know?

As to the other, I don't doubt any of your figures. Perhaps I should have said "on average" instead of "as much as?" The basic point being, of course: Don't trust the thermostat!


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Oven thermostats are typically bi-metal or capillary type of mechanical devices. They are not made to have very good resolution (+- 15 degrees). Adding to that, thermal mass of the oven material, and contains of food being cooked, it is not to be expected that you have accurate temperature control in the best of circumstances. 

Theoretically, a well designed convection oven is much better. A sous vide cooker, using PID thermocouple and digital controls can achieve 0.01 degree of cooking accuracy.

dcarch


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

I made ciabatta a few days ago. The ciabatta I'm used to is pretty pale, not as brown as a baguette and it has a crunch outside. The recipe calls for 220c (425f) for 20 mins. I baked mine at MAX setting for 40 mins and it's still pretty pale. No, very pale. I assumed that the max setting is around 280 - 300c


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

reyesryanmjaube said:


> ... I assumed that the max setting is around 280 - 300c


That's my point! Every time I have assumed something, it has made an ass/u/me!

Get at least one oven thermometer NOW! Assume nothing! You may have:

A bad thermostat
A miss-calibrated thermostat
A plugged gas line (if it is a gas stove), either in the stove or between the stove and the gas main.
An "open-circuit" (if it is an electric oven) (in the USA, most electric ovens operate on 2 separate 120 volt legs, effectively 240 volts
For less than $10, probably closer to $5, and an hour or so, you will KNOW what your oven is, or is not, doing! Then you can worry about something else, just after you fixed whatever is wrong with your oven, *BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY PROBABLE THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR OVEN!!!*


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Yes do a calibration testing of your oven temperature but let me return to one of my original comments:  what is the actual volume of your oven?  Please list the measurements in terms of length, width and height with all measurements made on the interior.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

kokopuffs said:


> I partly disagree. IT COULD BE THE FLOUR. Why do you think that white bread toasts faster therefore easier that whole wheat flour/bagel flour when placed in the toaster??????
> 
> And yes, it could be the baking temperatures as well.


As I said I dont think flour is the problem ! Comparing white bread to any other is not the answer. White bread in most cases contains a higher % of sugar which causes it to brown quicker. The original breast post gave a formula that contained no sugar in the mix. Plus Pate Choux contains no sugar. Fast food places even have by spec. high amounts of sugar added to their hamburger rolls , so they brown quicker. I agree with KY and Pete its the oven, something mechanical is amiss. Also I learned a new one Bagel Flour??? what is it, I learn every day.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

chefedb said:


> ... I agree with KY and Pete its the oven, something mechanical is amiss. Also I learned a new one Bagel Flour??? what is it, I learn every day.


It might just be that the baking chamber as alluded to in my previous post is way too large or the heating element might be way too underrated for that size baking chamber.

Bagel flour is very high in gluten which gives it its chewyness and therefore quite a good aerobic workout for the jaw muscles. Although uncertain, I think that bagel flour is described and can be ordered at the King Arthur website.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Since many of my Brooklyn Buddies own  or owned bagel shops I asked them .a few told me that they would try and source the cheapest place to buy breadf flour and thats all. They dont care about brand or type, just flour at a cheap price.They all added dough enhancers and mold retardants anyway so any flour was ok.      ON OVEN  Burners could be clogged which happens frequently If gas,check color of flame if possible. If electric 1/2 burner could be burned out where as other half will work.


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## littlebo (Oct 28, 2009)

Your oven isn't working properly. Get it fixed or buy a new one.

I prefer convection heat for browning things so look for that.

I've cooked decent bread in a frying pan over an open fire. (Bannock at least)

You need more heat, not necessary high heat either.

If your oven is working properly then maybe one of us can help with your recipe.

Cheers

Bob


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

So what I'm gonna do is buy an in-oven thermometer and if it's not in sync with the knob temp then I'll call the shop where I bought it since we just bought it last december? Is that a good idea?

Anyway, out oven is 90cm. And if I'm not mistaken, the whole capacity is 68 liters  Here's a pic.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Its ony 3 monthes old ,so for heavens sake lets stop beating a dead horse and get oven checked then fixed while you still have warrantee.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

reyesryanmjaube said:


> ...Anyway, out oven is 90cm. And if I'm not mistaken, the whole capacity is 68 liters


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm gonna do the oil and meat thermometer now since I cant go out yet and but a oven thermometer


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

reyesryanmjaube said:


> I'm gonna do the oil and meat thermometer now since I cant go out yet and but a oven thermometer


Cuidado amigo!

A meat thermometer has a much lower measuring capacity than a simple oven thermometer!

You need at least to be able to check between 180°C up to 220°C, most used settings in baking stuff.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Listen to Chris, Reyesryanmjaube. The right tool for the job is what you want, and a meat thermometer won't do it. Not only because the scale isn't high enough. They're not designed to be accurate in air.

Even a candy thermometer only goes up to about 350F, which is, generally, the starting point for baking.

You've waited this long. Another day or two isn't crucial.


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

Ok! I was about to use the meat thermometer and oil method but I suddenly realized (as you said) that the temp is too low. So I immediately called my mom, since she was out, to buy an In-Oven thermometer, and she bought one.



I tested it immediately and found out that my oven was 10c off. But as I said, I used the max temp in my oven (I tested it and got 500f in the oven thermometer) and I still got a pale bread.

Here's the bread.



So what may be the problem?

PS: I baked the bread before I used the thermometer but I used the max setting.


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

I should declare myself out when it comes to bread baking, but I know a lot of bakers pull out the same kind of bread when they don't use steam when baking. There's nothing wrong with your bread. Adding some hot water on a hot baking plate in your oven, beneath the bread, will produce steam and a glossy crispy bread...

I'll leave the rest to the experts around here, but many breadmakers will certainly enjoy this link in english, probably translated from dutch;

http://www.classofoods.com/ukindex.html

Click on topic "2.3 Baking" for explanation what happens when you bake bread...


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

That is some really anemic looking bread.  Did you steam it, I maen by pouring 1 C of boiling water into the floor of the oven like I do?  Really anemic, really...


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

kokopuffs said:


> That is some really anemic looking bread. Did you steam it, I maen by pouring 1 C of boiling water into the floor of the oven like I do? Really anemic, really...


No but I did put a pan with tap water beside the bread while baking


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

your bread is not hydrated enough to caramelize. add 10% more water at the start of your mix and make sure you ferment and proof long enough.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Again what's your hydration and it looks to me like a temperature issue more than anything else.  What's your hydration?


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Few tips:

Make sure you don't over handle the dough

don't over flour the work surface

bake at 400 F

finished when the internal temperature of the bread is 200 - 206 F

If you want more color, wash surface of dough with egg wash before baking


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

kokopuffs said:


> Again what's your hydration and it looks to me like a temperature issue more than anything else. What's your hydration?


What you're looking at sir is a failed ciabatta bread. I've been working on it for 3 days but it seems that poolish wont work properly for me. I dont really know the hydration of this bread but it's pretty wet since it's a ciabatta. But then again, its a failure. I am now fermenting a 'no knead' ciabatta dough and I'm gonna bake it 8 hours from now and I'm gonna post the results here.


m brown said:


> Few tips:
> 
> Make sure you don't over handle the dough
> 
> ...


If I add egg wash, wont the color be like... glossy and closer to a diner roll type of color rather than an artisan bread like color? I'm actually thinking of brushing the surface with water and oil and dusting it a bit before baking and see if it's gonna work for me. But really, I dont see most bread recipes calling to brush the surface with other liquids before baking. I'm really lost here


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I say, don;t use egg!  the color on bread is from the dough itself.  It would indeed make it shiny and yellow. 

You might try preheating a very long time (an hour) and

using a baking stone or cast iron pan that heats up inside the oven while you preheat and

spray the loaf with water before baking

Professional bread ovens force steam into them to brown the bread - or use wood-burning oven made of brick. 

But to me it looks mainly like the oven wasn;t hot enough.  Maybe you used the max setting but maybe you didn;t preheat enough, and maybe when you later tested the oven you put the thermometer where the bread didn't go, but lower or higher or closer to the edge.


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## fletcherous (Jun 20, 2010)

Convection?


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Fletcherous - are you saying convections don't brown well?


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

Convection ovens has a fan inside right? Mine dont have so I guess it's not convection.

I'm proofing my ciabatta dough and I'm gonna bake it an hour and a half from now. I'm gonna pre heat the oven at 450 for an hour and let's see the difference. I'm also gonna brush the surface with water and dust it with flour before baking it. Anyway, what,s better as a final brush. Water or oil?


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

FINALLY!! I was able to get it to brown! All it needed was the steam and yeah, I brushed water on it with a paper towel before I baked it. Maybe that's just what I needed. Thanks to all who helped me in this thread  This forum never fails





time to bake more bread!!


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

RRMJ, yesterday I was watching one of our top pâtissiers making pâte à choux. He brushed the top of the choux very slightly with beaten egg! They came out nicely browned on top and quite pale on the sides. Furthermore, he covered them with chocolate glaze; he melted some chocolate, poured on maybe 20% in volume still hot boiled cream and stirred into the chocolate. He mentioned that the glaze should become all shiny when mixing these two components together and that the topping wouldn't harden but stay somewhat soft, just like it should be. Indeed, when the chocolate was cooled, his choux looked like heaven with a nice glossy chocolate glaze on top! (The choux were filled with crème pätissière).


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## reyesryanmjaube (Nov 20, 2010)

ChrisBelgium said:


> RRMJ, yesterday I was watching one of our top pâtissiers making pâte à choux. He brushed the top of the choux very slightly with beaten egg! They came out nicely browned on top and quite pale on the sides. Furthermore, he covered them with chocolate glaze; he melted some chocolate, poured on maybe 20% in volume still hot boiled cream and stirred into the chocolate. He mentioned that the glaze should become all shiny when mixing these two components together and that the topping wouldn't harden but stay somewhat soft, just like it should be. Indeed, when the chocolate was cooled, his choux looked like heaven with a nice glossy chocolate glaze on top! (The choux were filled with crème pätissière).


Thanks for that tip! I'm gonna do that next time I make Cream Puffs


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

reyesryanmjaube said:


> FINALLY!! I was able to get it to brown! All it needed was the steam and yeah, I brushed water on it with a paper towel before I baked it. Maybe that's just what I needed. Thanks to all who helped me in this thread  This forum never fails


YAY!


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