# lets talk business



## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

We have had many really good points brought up in other posts talking business, could we bring the issues here?

I have a rather strong opinion about Suzy homemakers doing wedding cakes. I don't care! I don't feel like it advances me personally to worry about them or waste my time dwelling on them. Yes, they exist, yes they take business away from legit businesses.....but yet they've existed for a long time and will continue forever. I can only control myself.

What about deposits and cake supports? I hate the game of getting supports back. It's always a hassle. You talk to the bride....she forgets....you get parts back (not all of them) you get frustrated, she's confused....! I've noticed a couple decorators that charge for seperators as apart of the cost, no returns, no refunds, no hassle.

I prefer to take this route. I figure I'll just charge my actual costs plus a small fee. If someone has a big stink over this I'll refund them their money if they return the whole set promptly. 

But what about your base, decorative cake stands? That's different then internal supports. Everywhere a bride looks there is rental fees. I feel for her, but real wear and tear happens and I don't think cake decorators are really any different then other businesses. I think a straight rental fee should be charged for cake stands and it should be a daily fee like any other rental. If they break the item/stand then what? I'm not sure how to handle that.....

I'd really love to invest in some nice silver plated cake stands. Martha uses them alot. I have used them at the club, they really dress up the cake tremendously! I've had brides shop all over town looking for them, they want this look! How I'm going to do this remains a problems. Everything nice is several hundred dollars. Right now I'm thinking a flat users fee to go toward replacement plus a rental fee. It's always a brides option to not use them. But if she wants this look she'll have to understand it's expensive.

What about the acrylic stands? Their not cheap and their fragile to boot. Or the iron stands etc....they have to get broken and twisted along the way. How do you handle this? Eat the costs?


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Hi, W.
As you know I had a wedding cake business similar to yours for about 3 years. Here's what I did about cake stands, seperators and the lot:

For any of the Wilton style (white, clear or off-white plastic) seperators, columns and base plates, I charged full price plus about 10% mark up and added the cost to the total bill for the cake. If these items were returned to me (IN TOTAL-NO MISSING PIECES!) within 1 week of the reception, I refunded the cost. If anything was missing, they paid for the entire set up. I suggested to the bride that if she wanted the refund she make absolutely clear to her caterer that they were responsible for gathering all the pieces and getting them to me. I also included with the receipt a copy of an inventory of cake stand pieces used for the caterer or family member to check against. If she or the caterer wanted me to pick them up after the reception, I charged an additional delivery fee. 

For fancy silverplate cake stands and the like, I charged a deposit equal to the cost of replacing the pieces and a daily rental fee of $20. The rental fee was calculated with the reception day being day 1, then each day until return was paid for. When the piece was returned, I refunded the deposit. Again, if I had to pick them up, I charged another delivery fee.

I got around a lot of the objection to these fees by developing relationships with rental companies and caterers. Many rental companies carry the cake stands and such and often these items became a part of the bride's rental bill for plates, stemware and such. This way, when I found out who was catering and supplying rentals to the bride, I'd just call them up and add the items I needed to the bride's acount.

Worked great, but I got burned on my supplies for a good six months until I figured out a plan. Give the bride options, but stand by and protect your bottom line. You are in this to make a living. Right?


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

I charge a deposit to hold the day and cover the cost of the equiptment. It is usually a set amount UNLESS they need a special stand. Then it is more and I rent those. They get there deposit back when it is returned complete and in good condition. I charge the same as fnf stated if they don't or are late. I make the bases on my cakes nice enough that the brides don't generally opt for a stand.


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Rentals: Silver Cake Plateaus,Silver Trays, Cake Stands, etc....
There is a rental fee as well as a refundable deposit on any equipment used for the set-up of the cake. The client is responsible for the safe and timely return of these items within 2 days(48 hrs.) At this time the deposit check is returned. If any item is damaged the amount will be deducted from the deposit check. If the equipment is not returned in 2 days, a late fee of $5.00 per day will be charged. If the equipment is not returned within 1 week the deposit check will not be refunded. Separate deposit check is required for rentals.

I have a cabinet maker make my cake bases. Or just cut them for me. 5/8 thick solid. I finish the edges w/ a glued on edge tape and glue on double faced satin ribbon, and I cover the base with a really nice wall paper(grease resistance). Then I glue on some wooden things to the bottom to slightly raise the board. Looks expensive and helps with getting your fingers out from under when delivering. I've done huge ones, where I gold leafed the entire board. And I charge them for it $$, it's included in the price. It's theirs to keep, no returns. OR, if it's a small cake, I use a masonite type board and cover it with fondant, depends on the design. 

Construction: I do not use cake separators, or pillars. Sorry no plastic look. I use straws or dowels and foam core. Cost is included. I've invested in "stress-free supports" did not get a chance to use them yet. Bought them just in case of real difficult designs. Those have to be returned, and a deposit.$$ Cost me.




:bounce:


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

See I wondered about bases because as far as I know, no one is using silver regularly (or at least advertising that fact). Although you see them alot in the magazines. Either a flat tray or a traditional cake stand which usually rises about 3"to 4". For a very small reception I love the look of a footed glass stand (I haven't had the chance to do this though).

To consider: yes I'm familar with what you describe Spoons, looks clean and professional (I do like this look!)....yet it takes time and effort. Where as a purchased item (like a silver cake stand) just costs money. If you have a damage statement where they don't get their deposit back if the item is damaged....this seems like a wiser move....opinions? If time is money.....

Inside my cakes as my support system I use wilton plates that came with the clear twist legs (never straws). But I then I use wooden dowels cut to height inserted in my cake so their not visable. I haven't done anything with visable pillars in along time, but when the occasion arises I plan on using my reg. wilton set and covering the thin legs with gum paste. I've seen this done by several people, it can really look great.

Oh, another question/point....about using foam core....Are you buying this cut into rounds (if so where)? Because I don't find this very easy to cut in round shapes!

Not sure I know what your describing Spoons as "stress free supports" could you explain?

Anyone sell or talk to your brides about decorating the cake tables? Or are they on their own?


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Spoons (I am still trying to figure out who you are on the other board)- Let me know how you like the stress free supports. Earlene loves them but they are a somewhat big investment for a small business.

W- you can find info on the stress free supports at www.earlenescakes.com As far as foam core goes- it does not come in rounds, you have to cut them yourself. An exacto knife works well for me.

If you are looking for easier bases I have a friend that might have some ideas that you might like. YOu can see her work at www.weddingcakes-cleveland.com, she uses painted wooden table tops, custom made box stands, and glass table tops that she elevates with sturdy candle holders.

Have you ever tried the straws? They are a lot easier to use and the physics of it all is kind of amazing. Because of the way regular pillars displace cake the straws work better structurally. Rose Levy Bernbaum has a complete scientific description of how this works in the Cake Bible.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

OOOPS- it is www.weddingcakes-cleveland.com


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I just don't feel good enough about the straws (I do know what you mean and know they are popular). If the weight shifts they move and on an angle they provide 0 support, they buckel. A wooden dowel can't buckel even if the weight shifts. 

I deal with the displaced cake by inserting those hallow tubes (from wilton) into my cake. Pull out the tubes so I have a clean view to the bottom of the base of my cake layer. Then insert my doweled legs. A dowel set into a cake where it's weight just mushes the cake down doesn't always sit perfectly level since it's on mushed cake. Too dangerous. That's a part of the reason I pull the cake out and clear the bottom.

Then when it comes to serving, it's very easy for the cutter to take mine apart because no cake will be stuck to the supports and they don't have to fish for them with their fingers.

I don't think I loose any more servings then a straw system. Basicly I ruin 4 pieces for each dowel leg. But then I always give huge portions to cover my back side.


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

Wendy, in response to your PM here are my thoughts on silver cake trays although they are very nice I rarely see them used I think because of the cost. I called a couple of area bakers and this is what they said; They charge a deposit in the amount to replace the item and charge about 25% of that cost as a rental plus a 18% service charge. As a caterer, I find the mother of the bride or other designated person as soon as the thing is clean and we load it in their car. I then make them sign a reciept that they have received it to cover myself.
As far as what you can do to get your foot in the door with me; You really only get one chance to make an impression and that is with your samples. If they are as good or better than what we are currently using then you will get your chance. Small and not quite as important at first but something to work up to. If you continue to do well, then you get moved up the list. The last thing we or our brides want to worry about is the cake. Also earlier, someone spoke about adding fresh flowers to the cake, while I don't know if there is a separate cost or not, all our bakers do it.
I know my staff doesn't touch it until it's time to cut the cake. and the florest is long gone. Hope this helps. Good luck


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

ummm,
To much to consider. 1st, Wendy, you will eventually have to give some consideration to the suzy's. When one is set up right next to you at a bridal show and telling customers that they are 1/2 the price because they don't have the overhead that you do.
Deposits: great idea, but when you grow you will find a few hurdles not to mention a bookeeping nightmare.
Fodigger,
I am so disappointed we did not meet. Which store did you visit, the little one with the rolling pins or the production bakery?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the input Fodigger. You'd be supprised how much some of those plastic cakes stands cost, plated silver is in the same price range as some. Anything we use for our bases costs us money, if I have a deposit to cover damage or loss and charge a fee I feel like I'm coming out ahead of the other route which would be making my own bases. It's not a money making thing but when you make your own boards your losing money on your labor and you can't get a fee out of it.

Couple other quick questions (if you don't mind). Do you need me to call first if I'm just dropping off a brocure and a sample? It rarely appeared to me (from what I saw) that sales people called first. If the door was unlocked they just walked in. Is that wrong? Do you take offence to that approach? (With some exceptions: I wouldn't show up during meals, I'd call any big prospects first)


Do you want a verbal pitch or are you sick to death of them (like you said it comes down to taste) and if you like it you'll call? I don't think any sales pitch works it the product doesn't sell it's self. I respect the fact that your busy and smart enough to call if you want my product. If you (the business owner or manager) engage me in conversation then I'll follow your lead. Otherwise a 1 minute intro. is how I want sale people to approach me, is that what you want or would that be too weird?


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Wendy,
stress-free supports. http://www.earlenescakes.com/newringsupportset.htm

Anna, haven't had a chance to try them. I hate the fact of having to get back anything(supports,etc) But, I purchased them just in case I have a huge difficult cake.

Anna, I don't post on a regular basis. I just check it out once in a while. Pick up some tips. Not to sound snobby, having a culinary background,I can't relate to some of them. Someone would ask for a mousse recipe and I'll post one. A real one. Others would post mousse made with jello pudding and cool whip. Not too fond of the crisco buttercream either. No offense anyone. Just personal preference.I know you preach IMBC. Because it's the best. And it is. I use it. Was someone serious about using lard?

Well I love all these threads, Wendy you started some interesting ones. I'll try to keep up. And contribute. How do you find the time to come on the computer. I see you everywhere? I don't have time.

My cake bases take time and effort, but, I charge the client. And they don't look cheap.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Huh, with-out working a 60 hour a week job I'm lost. I also wake pretty earily and don't have children so I have far more free time then most people.

ANYWAY, boy I feel stupid when you posted stress free supports Anna, I was thinking for your arm, HA. Well I finally looked, that looks great! How much are they? I also looked at your friends web site, she does fabulous work!

Time is flying and I still can't decide if I want to do one of those bridal shows. I sure don't like their fees!


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Spoons- the other board is good for decorating tips- I have found a couple of people to bounce ideas off of and it has been helpful. I am definitely an IMBC person and most of them are not. Most do it because it is less expensive and they claim it is easier. However, after making some "practice buttercream" (just shortening and powdered sugar)for my kids to play with I don't see it saving you any time because the clean up takes 10 times longer. Regarding the stress free supports I have the same feelings as you- they would come in handy for those huge pyramid type cakes but who wants to worry about getting them back?

Wendy- the only stress free support system I have for my arms is hubby- but if they made another kind I would probably buy it . My husband actually helps deliver all the cakes, does marketing for me, and on occasion has been known to be "cleaning *****". He seems to be a good investment! 

Did you know that some of those fees for the bridal shows are negotiable? Can't hurt to ask, all they can do is say no. I don't know what they are asking for but the prices here would be covered in one or two average cakes. That is not a bad deal in my opinion. As far as what show to do- What neighborhood is it in? Where is it being held? How many people do they expect? How many other cake people will be there? If all those questions are answered to your satisfaction then it would probably be worth it. I am doing one in February that is at a prestigious location with only one other cake person and 600-800 brides expected. That could definitely fill my calendar.

Have you decided when and how you are going to take the plunge?


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

Wendy, here is how I like it done. Call first but be prepared know my name first. I might be the one answering the phone. If you ask for the owner or manager strike one against you( mind you these are just my opinions) It shows you're not prepared.Hello, Mr. Smith I realize you're very busy but, I had some of my awesome cake samples to drop off for you it will only take a minute or so of your time and I wanted to know what would be a better time 2:30 or 3 pm this afternoon? I know you will really enjoy my cakes. 2:30 ok that would be great I'll see you at 2:30

You go to see him at 2:30 sharp. Mr Smith? Hello my name is Wendy. Thankyou for taking time again out of your busy schedule. I've put 4 mini samples of the cakes that I do and a brochure for my company.Thank you again. Good-bye

That day mail a nice note again thanking him for his time. This most likely will get to him the next day. If you have any questions or if I can be of service I would love the opportunity to discuss them with you. I can be reached at 555-1212. Again, Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sincerely,

Wendy
Wedding Cakes Galore

Or something along those lines. Hope that helped.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna,
I never did find out, are you legal in the sence I described? I'm wondering because of the negetive coments from your competetors. If you have all the same overhead and expenseses as they do I'm against that.
I have to admit something though, I had a wonderful conversation with a women and husband working out of their home illegally. She unconsciously targeted me because she is in the same area. I waited till I had heard something from three of our clients about how she was trying to undersell us. We had actually lost a 2600. cake to her two weeks ago.
I called her and told her I needed to set up a time to come talk to her and her husband. Being very defensive of the little empire she had built over the last year, I explained that I really felt that I was being completely fair talking with them vs calling the authorities. A few cups of coffee and a few hours later I had come to find out that these were very nice people but just plain ignorant to the legalities and responsibilities of running a business for profit. I came prepared with paperwork to show them that it takes a small location like ours 90,000. in revenue to break even doing it the right way. Needless to say, they are working on becoming legal.
Jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Unless they growum different down there in Texas Panini, I find it real hard to believe your illegal freinds plea of ignorance. You learn what you want to learn.

Thanks for the imput Fodigger! I'll do that as much as possible. I have names and stats for country clubs but I don't know where to find sources for hotels, banquet halls and restaurants. Any ideas? Otherwise I'll have to do my call ahead "what your owners name?" lengthening my process. Can I get names from the NRA?

Between my friends and family they choose my name,the cake artist . Hopefully it will be an easy name for my clients.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Yea, you might be right. As long as they are not directly affecting me anymore and not jeopardizing people's health I can't waste anymore time on them.
Have you gotten your legal ducks in a row. Liability ins. will be something you might come up against with the hotels and halls.
It is the norm here, thank god. You can get some good coverage for min. dollars. Also, make sure the hall or site has plenty of liability ins!! If they don't, anything can come back on the vendors.
A pecan shell in November is costing my ins. company approx. 9500.00. less my 250. deduct.
Jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

My ducks in a row, HA! Not even close. I'm not certified (never was neccesary until now), classes start next month. Still have to find a place to sub-lease from....tons to do, never enough hours in the day. Just plugging away.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hey, I just re-read your post. Any leads for me on that inexpensive insurance???????


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I'd check with trade marks and copyrights, W. but I think the name "The Cake Artist" is protected. You wouldn't want to have everyone get to know you by one name, only to have to change it. You can find this info in the reference section of your library.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Panini-

The laws here are very relaxed for home bakers. I am allowed to sell to the end user only- no wholesale. I have liability insurance, etc. No, I do not need to meet the exact same standards as a "shop". What I find interesting is that I am almost never less expensive than the shops. I also don't target specific people's business and I never undercut to get a job. My time is too valuable- I'd rather have the weekend off than sell a cake for less than it's worth. I am a very small business (I only do one wedding cake per weekend) which is what I want right now. At the most, due to space, I could only double my business. After that, I would need to rent space and become a "shop". I have the luxury of conducting myself this way because I am only looking for a small income. 

The biggest advantage I see that I have over my competitors is not price but service and professionalism (I went into a "competitors" place one time to get info and they gave me a binder with 10 pictures, prices listed, and said "pick one"). I can be more flexible with people as far as time goes and give them more one on one attention. Other than that, I have only one other person in the area, that I have found, that is doing the same kind of work- IMBC, Fondant, gumpaste, cast sugar, etc. Some do one or two but not all. Most are still doing only Wilton type decorating. In fact, a lot of brides come to me after everyone else has told them they can't do it.

That is probably more than you wanted to know and I try not to get defensive but even though my business is small, I take it as seriously as if I had a big one.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Your posts about the folks doing illegal catering out of home reminded me of the lady I worked for, who absolutely knew she was flying under the radar! AND - get this - she didn't even charge for her cakes!!!! Included them in the price of her 'per person' charge!!!!! And they weren't even that good!!! Just one of the reasons I'm not working with her anymore; the only reason I stayed as long as I did - a whole six months! - was that it was an incredible learning curve for me, as I did EVERYTHING while she worked on her cakes; she didn't care if I made up new sauces, etc.; I put new twists on main courses, and even developed menus for some of her parties. It got really hairy when we were on site with oh, about 10 aps, and she was still putting finishing touches on the cake, so couldn't give me a hand with things. It was fun while it lasted!


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Anna, there is no need to be defensive if you know you are legal and following the rules. My best friend's mother has been decorating for over twenty years now and is amazing. The laws where she lives are really strange- if she works for a bakery, she can make her cakes at home (but of course the bakery gets part of the profit from the sale) but if she just wants to foot it herself, she has to build a separate kitchen onto her house that would be used only for the business- no home baking. She only does about two cakes a month, so that's just not financially feasable for her (especially since they are thinking of selling their house!)

She recently did a cake for a horticulturalists wedding- fondant over the cakes and gumpaste orchids and peaches!!  It was really amazing, and quite an expensive cake too. Beautiful. 

Nothing wrong if you're doing what you're supposed to. But I agree about the whole "Suzy-homemakers" who are just trying to slip in there without bearing the financial burdens that professional cake-decorators do. It's not fair or right.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

You should check if that name is used by someone in your area. A quick search for the cake artist on the net brought back a surprising number of results.


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## roon (Jan 9, 2002)

Actually, when you go to get your business license, they will ask you to put down the name of your business. Then, if someone in the area already has a business with that name, in a related field, they'll let you know that you have to pick a different name. For example, two people in the area could have a business named "SuperDuper"- as long as they specialized in different businesses (ie- one is a plumber and the other is a hair salon). But two plumbers wanting the name "SuperDuper" won't fly. The first one, gets the name. 

At least, that's how it is in my area. Could be different where you are!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna,
There is no reason to be defensive. You are doing things the proper way. You don't have to be pumping out cakes to be good. No one will have any less respect for you if only doing one cake a weekend. We do the same thing. We are limited to the number of cakes we can do because of delivery time frame. The fact is, if we expand we will loose quality, control, increase payroll and our net would probably be the same. 
There is not one single thing between our business, except that there are probably more times when I don't realize any monies from the business.
Wendy,
when you go down to the court house to register your business they will have some sort of way to look to see if anyone else is operating under that name. You probably know you don't trademark your name, you trademark your logo. It is very inexpensive to register a business name, so if you plan to do or expand into anything else I would register all the names. I have Panini Bakery, Panini Cakes,sandwiches etc.
I would also look into incorperating. Always protect youself and your families belongings. But that will probably come up later.
Calling local ins. guys or gals who handle business will be able to give you quotes. It is usually cheaper to roll the bakery, liability and car to one. I would factor about 1-200. monthly. I have so much to tell you! If you are using credit card to purchase items, don't use personal ones. Get one for your business.
Jeff


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

when you go to get your business license, it is not their responsibility to see if you have the same name as anyone else- that is your responsibility- you need to do your homework

far better to change your name now - than b4 you get started with it you really only need to worry about it on a statewide level unless you are planning interstate commerce-

i've been involved in a lawsuit regarding a business name- the other company did not "do their homework" and had to change their name

i normally contact my trademark lawyer to do a search for me before i name any of my products- it's quite expensive

i since have found a website that seems to do the same thing- i'll try to find it for you


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## breadster (Feb 23, 2001)

the site i was looking for is www.marksonline.com- i tried to search it and didnt find anything- but it has other FAQs that provide information that might be pertinent

if you go to google.com and type in "the cake artist" you'll see several uses there- but 1. those were in another state 2. may be different usage

the whole trademark issue gets very complicated- you dont have to trademark your name- however, if someone else has (trademarked the same name) you will have to change it

i know - just another issue to make things more difficult

as i mentioned to you in our discussion- liability insurance and incorporation to protect yourself- and make sure whoever you rent space from has it too


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Breadster, I'm not trying to be argueementitive at all, but the laws are different all over. I too have had a legal battle with someone using my name and won.
You cannot trade mark something that is used normally like the word bread, pan, oven,roof etc..panini means little bread, therefore it cannot be trade marked. You can trade mark your logo with the word panini in it. You are right when you say it is your responsibility to see if someone else is using the name, but there are easy tools available in your local records department to find this out. Most have all names on computer ot micro film.
Most companies that seem to have problems are those who inc. through their state and forget to search locally.
I will also tell you if you have a name registered and someone opens with the same name you have to respond within a certain period of time or they will be granted the use. 3 yrs. here.

Wendy,
Don't get bogged down with this, just go to your records department and do a search when you register you name. I wouldn't worry about trade marking now, it's probably not in your budget now anyway.

always the flip side:bounce:


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hum, I had no idea I picked such a common/popular name....Many great points you all have made, a couple things I wasen't aware of. I've been in business before so I figured everything would be pretty much the same. But I used my name before so we didn't have to do any deep name checks.
On the name thing, my family all thought I should use my personal name in my business like dear ole Martha. But, I thought I heard or read somewhere that Wendys' old fashioned hamburgers sues anyone using the name wendy in any business name/title. Has anyone else heard that? And my last name seems out too, I think it's too hard for many people to pronouce.

THANKS for the web site lead! I'll spend sometime there checking things out. 

Complications (in my little head) arose, our local bakery is for sale. I did alittle checking. Their dreaming if anyone will come up even 1/2 way to what they want! If I'd have guessed at their annual income I'd have said under 60,000. for sure, their fact sheet looked pretty shocking actually. It's the deadest store, and no one I've ever known likes them or buys from them (retail or wholesale, that I know of). 

BUT< BUT I've got my fingers crossed they might sell off some of their equipment cheaply. My complication is I'm not ready to purchase anything.....but a good sale would be nice.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Illegal businesses are like prositutes! I understand your frustrations Panini, it isn't a level playing ground. But that's also something we all learn thru life...isn't there a book about good guys finish last?

The only thing I can see to do to avoid the uneven playing ground with the big guys and the illegals and to not compete. That's why I'm only focusing on detail work, aim for what they don't want or can't do, plus that's what I'm best at. Granted I'll never make a fortune this way, I'd be happy to make what I earned employeed by someone else.

I think your right on Anna! Being happy working how often you like and not lowering your standards is a quality of life I seek.

P.S. I made 2 of the cakes that everyone at the decorators site use (BOY, were they BAD! a straight mix IS better), if that's what your average home decorator is using I wouldn't think twice about your competition Panini. Although I'm not willing to hand out a recipe I'm absoluted delighted to say I've found the perfect white cake and yellow cake recipes from scratch (no mixes or puddings etc...). YEAH!!!! FINALLY!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

never once did I say these wh---- are competition. 

Wendy, I'm hearing you want just to do detail work. Pick and choose. Increase quality of life. C'mon. you know what business is like. Being sucessful is not part time income to make ends meet.
You have the passion to be out on your own. You are thinking way to small, I know you better! You'll be much happier with a place that has a staff, where you will pass on your knowledge. That staff can be just 1 or 15 people. You can find a club that will have you come in once a week to do a cake or two, why take on all the extra baggage.
Whats a fact sheet? Have you talked to these people? What is their asking price? Whats the leasing situation? Investigate everything. 30,000. is a equal to a car note. Find out the landlord. Approach them to see if there might be a bad situation there. Who knows, this place might be 8 months behind. The landlord will sometimes change the locks if he knows someone else is interested. Equipment usually has a lean buy the bank. There are all sorts of creative ways to get yourself into a place. There might even be an out of state investor


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Gosh. I just reread my last post. What a jerk I am. Wendy you can absolutely reply and tell me to KMA! although I kind of meant everything.
jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Actually that bakery owns the building, I shouldn't have mentioned because I really have no serious interest, it's a little day dream (I'd only be interested in buying their equipment CHEAP). 

I have some "ideas" so to speak up my sleive for my business. But it might be something worth a copy right....I'm trying to figure out how I can keep a good idea to myself without a bigger fish copying me and stealing my whole concept. When I get it all worked out I'll have to spend money with a good lawyer and see if I can protect my concept. In addition to that I'd like to do wedding cakes. The first idea involves volume and personally I'm rather worried I could be way over my head in knowledge and ability to control the situation.....

No, I'm not entering a business to do it part time....somewhere back there is a comment that it's really not a bad concept being small in reference to Anna's business. Lots of businesses aren't really more profitable because their larger....


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Well, thanks everybody for not taking my head off. You'd be surprised at what people have the nerve to say to me. The worst was a woman who lived so far away she couldn't even consider me competition. For right now, I like my little business- lets me take great care of my family while bringing a little income into a budget. My 8 year old is talking about me getting a shop when she is old enough to help (and inherit) build the business. Let's see if she keeps the interest...

Wendy- please keep us updated on your progress and what your final plans are. Let me know when you are ready to share that white cake recipe, I've tried dozens and am still looking for the perfect one (although, why would you have white when you can have chocolate...?).


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna,
I have a very handsome 10 yr. old who knows how to run the register, bake cookies, mop floors, clean glass etc. Very smart, 1 of40 out of hundreds accepted to a local prepatory school.
What do ya think?:blush:  
Only problem he is never allowed to enter this business.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Panini- your son seems to be just what we are looking for (none of our friends have sons-estrogen as far as the eye can see). Not to one up you but my daughter is in a public school system where she is in a gifted program and is in the top 15 out of 500 students (brag, brag, brag, ok- I am trying to one up you) . Why can't your son being in this business? My daughter has started her own portfolio- Wants to make enough money by the time she goes to college so that she can be any thing she wants and doesn't have to worry about the cash...told you she was smart !


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Anna,
My son would be in public school but unfortunately we reside in a older part of a small city that is growing and the newer sections have all the good schools. We're a little old fashioned and chose to also incorporate theology into the mix untill he is old enough to make that choice. He attends a Cistersian school where they still stand when a teacher or monk enters the room.
The hours and the lack of respect for the profession have put me in a mind set, not to let him in the business. It a great opportunity for him and his friends to earn cash in the summer, but I'm hoping he heads into a less grueling field. A self starter and a self sufficient girl friend would be ideal for him. He has got all his schooling $. So he will have some disposable $ for dinners and movies.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Spoons, how did your Fluid Flex trials come out?

Wendy, I'm glad you finally arrived at the cake recipes you were looking for. I prefer a yellow sponge over a white one any day. It should be soft and moist, even when chilled. I've tried really horrible white cakes from mixes and bakeries. 

Hey Panini, my older brother was a Cistercian monk for 5 years before he decided the cloister just wasn't meant to be. I used to drop off apple strudel when our family came to visit him ---and all the monks would be so happy because they had a sweet tooth.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Angrychef,
Yes we have becime very popular amongst the monks, they certainly have a sweet tooth. It seems very hard to me, thats why I have so much respect for them. They are so focused on teaching all the young men, its incredible. Nick's forum master is in his 60's and will have this group till they graduate in 2009. Thsi will be the 3rd group of boys for him.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Can someone clue me in on what fluid flex is? 

Spoons- I like the Wooley recipe for hazelnut. I have hot hands also but have not ruled out buttercream. Not many people around here using the IMBC and the icing alone brings me customers.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Fluid Flex is liquid shortening. Cakes made with it tend to be more stable, with a longer shelf life. But it's shortening, and doesn't have any flavor.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

As far as cakes go, thru my experimenting I realized that the mix cakes have less flex structure/body to them then any scratch cakes. It's weird because I always thought they were so moist, and more flexable. I don't think that anymore. P.S. I learned that whole eggs don't add moisture to white cakes, they change the texture into a more corse open grain.

After this experinece I'm not going to play with fluid flex. The real butter flavor is just too good to loose. If I want shortening, oil works better.

Have any of you tried the white cake mix version where you add the extra cup each of flour and sugar....? I hated that one! It looked promising at first, but then it cooled off to be dry with a rather open big crumb (not fine at all). The added extract made it so fake and gross, yuk! I also tried the cake doctors white cake that uses whole eggs instead of just whites and melted butter. It looked more home made using whole eggs and butter, but was too dry with a weird crumb. 

When it came to mixes I still think you have to add a pudding, that one factor changed the whole texture (none of the other changes did). But I couldn't ever get away from the artifical taste. Using butter or sour cream....nothing helped the texture more then the pudding.

When it came to scratch cakes, chiffons were really my favorite all around cakes, then butter cakes. I came to appreciate that the scratch cakes improved over a couple days in flavor actually. I thought I hadn't given them enough chance previously.....and discovered I shouldn't refridgerate what doesn't need to be. They aged nicely out of the cooler.

I used my husband as my guinnea pig, taste tester. With-out telling him my choices he picked all the same frostings and cakes as I with one exception, the white cake. He picked a doctored white mix over my scratch white. So I still have to taste test this further with other people. His said was he was used to the cake mix flavor, and thought he might be matching which cake tasted closest to that. Instead of being completely unprejudiced.

I know that sounds strange but I wonder how many brides will be similar? Mixes are just so accepted and widely used, is that the flavor we know as 'cake'?

He also didn't like any frostings that didn't contain xxxsugar. Again, I better taste test this with others.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I've found that if using a liquid shortening, the recipe should be high in eggs and use real vanilla extract so it tastes good. Another good choice would be to use a combination of butter and oil for taste and softness.


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## anna w. (Nov 27, 2001)

Wendy-

try those recipes out on several people. My husband is not a good taste tester...his favorite icing is canned chocolate Betty Crocker! I find that if I need taste testers almost no one says no to me. 

Unfortunately, white is still the reigning flavor in the bridal world. I am not a white cake fan to begin with but a lot of people judge you on how moist and flavorful a white cake is. And people are so used to box cakes that most would never have a clue. In our town we used to have a large bakery and people raved about thier white cake. I hated it- it was dry and mealy. Anybody who now tastes anything remotely moister can't believe how good it tastes. So go figure.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I agree 

We wash all our cakes
pan


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Bummer, Anna your words of advice were right. But so was he. My taste testers didn't agree with me, they liked the modified mix best too (like my hubby). Only me and one person out of 10 of us went for my scratch white. SOOOOO sad, I really liked it much better then the mix. 

Man, now I have to go back to the kitchen again. Along the way my Mom mentioned a cake in Mailbox news (from years ago) that talked about how great the '7up cake' is. Have you heard of this? I found it in her books and a couple others I'll now try again.

Also tried the buttercream frostings you and Momoreg offered. They are good, no doubt (maybe it takes a more educated palate for them?)...but maybe it's a midwest thing cause they picked the xxxsugar frosting over the Italian. Some remarked on both choices yum sweet....maybe in my area people like things pretty sweet. I've noticed that when I buy items like ketchup or soda out of state they don't seem as sweet as what I'm used to at home....?


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

I can't answer about midwesterners liking things sweet, but oh, those southerners! I have recipes I've collected when I lived in Charleston, S.C., and also from my mother in law - I've got a 7-up cake, a 'coca-cola' cake, a Milky Way cake, and my favorite, hummingbird cake! If anyone's interested, let me know!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Marmalady I found the 7up recipe but before I make it can you tell me if it's white, light and moist like a GOOD white cake? Thanks


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Yes!!!!


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi Angrychef,
Sorry for not getting back. Busy bee.
Yeah, no new trials on the fluid flex department.
Haven't had time. still wanna practice, since I got that huge tub.
Now, we were never taught to use fluid flex or any liquid type shortening in culinary school. In fact, all butter cakes,genoise,chiffons. So, my dumb question is...Can you sub it in a recipe calling for solid shortening?


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I don't see why not. But, Spoons, I only use Fluid Flex for the "genoise"-like sponge cake we make at work which is split and layered for cakes. My chiffons and butter cakes are done with oil and butter respectively.


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

Angry,
Okay word confusion. 
Let me clarify.. I hope.
I am not familiar with bakery products.
I thought using fluid flex is only for high-ratio type cakes. Because it is in a liquid form. I automatically assumed it would have a butter type consistency cake, but yet less dense.
So, a fluid flex cake will produce a genoise type cake? I thought it would be more a butter/dense cake but less dense. 
Am I making any sense?


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Spoons, you are right in saying "hi ratio cake". Sorry for the confusion! The recipe I use is similar to momoreg's where the egg % is really high as compared to a regular hi-ratio cake(150% as opposed to 70-80%), so the cake resembles a more sponge cake like crumb .


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