# Surprise! I am hoping for help choosing new knives :)



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

HI all 

Newbie/lurker here, with the usual request for help choosing some new knives. I have tried to do a fair bit of reading here and on other sites, so I am now that most dangerous of individuals - I have some understanding and knowledge but probably not enough. I will try to provide details on what I want, how I am and what I am thinking so far. Please help guide me as I expand my culinary skills.

So I am a home/hobby cook, not a professional and not likely to become a professional. I'm fairly certain I shouldn't use the word chef to describe myself. I have taken some cooking classes and will likely take more for my own enjoyment. In particular, I plan to take a knife skills course to better use these new knives we're discussing. I cook a wide variety of items - vegetables, meats, no limits on what I will try really. My wife and I like to eat multiple ethnic foods (I do the vast majority of the cooking). I also bake (mostly cookies, squares, cakes etc, accounting for my physique). I rarely would do anything involving cutting through joints or bone. The only times I can think of, off hand, would be Christmas/Thanksgiving with turkey.

I currently have a set of relatively inexpensive Sabatier knives (a set that came with a pairing knife, 6 steak knives, a 8 inch Chef, a 6 inch utility knife, a bread knife, and a 10 inch slicer). They are supposed to be about the quality level of 1 or 2 man Henckels - I can't remember exactly, we've had them for almost 20 years. I recently bought a 8 inch santoku and 6 inch santoku by Kuhn Rikon to see how I felt about the shape (I like the shape fine). I mostly use the utility knife, chef's knife and the steak knives (don't hate me - I use them like a pairing or utility knife when my utility is dirty and I don't like my pairing knife).

Maintenance and sharpening - um, ooops? Ok, we didn't know about no dishwasher, so they have all been constantly in there. Probably explains the lack of sharpness, particularly since I have never sharpened them. I promise to hand wash and dry my new knives. I do use the steel to hone the blades, more and more recently. I honestly thought that was sharpening before embarking on the research to find new knives. And while we're being honest, I will say I don't mind honing, and -might- use a machine to sharpen but I am not likely to get into hand sharpening. So blades that stay sharp longer are probably important. As well, I would probably be unhappy with rust, so I think I'm looking for stainless.

Alright. So what am I thinking? I would like to try Japanese knives. After my reading, I was leaning towards getting a Tojiro DP 2- or 3-peice set from Chef Knives To Go. It is a 6" utility knife and 8" gyuto plus or minus a 3" pairing knife. However, I will admit to an aesthetic bias. I was hoping to get "cool" looking knives, maybe with funky handles and a hammered damascus blade. My reading so far suggested the Tojiro's would be amongst the best function for money. I have an engineer's function before form core so hence the above. I was also thinking I might get a German Chef's knife as well to deal with gourds, other hard vegetables and the rare times I might need to cut joints/around bone.

Money is not really a limiting factor, but I want to pay for good knives and not simply to have a name brand (for instance, a friend who went to WS and bought Shuns because they looked cool and had a recognizable name), I guess in the money area, the best phrasing is that I would like a good value.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice. Oh, and thanks to boar_d_laze and others for all the information here. I particularly liked the post sequence "Best knives???".


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/hammered-damascus-series to satisfy your bling
I use my J-knives or a cleaver on gourds. A conservative edge on a petty/utility can work fine if you don't work around joints and bones often

IMO any knife that we're going to be talking about, the performance, and therefore your satisfaction, is going to be heavily dependent on what kind of sharpening it gets. You buy a new knife and whatever it edge it comes with (even ignoring that some of us will resharpen that immediately) lasts maybe 1,2,3 months or something in that range. Then you resharpen it. That nice steel is going to respond to what it gets, and by and large the machines aren't getting close to maxing out the potential of the knife+its steel. You want to buy a 50 or 100+ dollar knife for its lifetime, not the first few months, so the sharpening ought to match. I don't recommend anything pricier than a Victorinox to friends if I know it won't be sharpened right, and am only gifting J-knives to people who will take their knife back to me every few months so they see some time on the stones. That's my personal experience
You could think about getting a loaded strop for home maintenance but if you can strop, you've done like half the work to learning how to use stones (consistent angle holding, the stroke/motion)

Depending on where you live (this is a big conditional) you might have a sharpener in the area who does the job right and can send your knives there once in a while. The more knives you have and use, the more that money adds up though


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks for the reply. I just looked at the Gonbei Hammered Damascus Wa-Gyuto and it does have the blade aesthetic I liked. I need to get my hands on some of the handles to ensure they are comfortable for me. Along those lines, I forgot to mention that use what I think people call a baseball grip, likely because I have never been shown pinch grip. After I take a skills class, perhaps I will change.

I realize hand sharpening with stones is the best, I am just slightly suspicious of my diligence given my history of "hmm, yeah, I should mow the lawn...but I don't feel like it today so maybe next weekend." A machine seemed like something I would actually do at appropriate intervals. While looking at the Tojiro DP's again yesterday (and noticing they have a Damascus DP line that I had somehow missed), I saw "Tojiro Pro Roll Sharpener" (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/to.html) and was going to ask about it. In terms of stroping, is that preferred over honing? I had planned to buy a ceramic hone.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I didn't notice your location before. Check out the selections at Paulsfinest and Knifewear

Pinch grip can be worked on without a knife skills class.

Wish there was a way to demonstrate the different results you get via different methods (stone, machine, rod, etc). IMO it's going to come down to your standards for sharpness and edge retention.

Oh, I think Knifewear now has a Vancouver shop. Depending on the rates they charge for knife sharpening you could probably get away with doing that...and have a chance to look at and hold some of these types of knives in person!

http://knifewear.com/


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks again! I didn't know about those places and will appreciate being able to physically see and touch the knives. I also found out today that Japanese Knife Imports (the place you mentioned earlier) is in LA. I will be visiting the area later this year so I may be able to drop by their store.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

So I managed to stop by KnifeWear today.  Interestingly, I found the handles of the Tojiro DP to be a bit thin (I have fairly large hands).  I think that it would be fine if I were pinch grip, but currently it wasn't the most comfortable.  I think I would adjust to it, though, if I bought them.  

I really enjoyed the feel of the oval Wa handles, particularly Masakage Kiri and Haruyuki SRS15 they had.  I got to try the blades a little and, OMG, what a difference in terms of sharpness to what I have now.  I am definitely looking forward to actually owning better knives. Anyway, I had mostly heard of VG10 for stainless steel.  Does anyone have an opinion regarding SRS15 in comparison? And any thoughts on the quality of the aforementioned knives? The guy at the store suggested getting the Masakage petty and the Haruyuki gyuto or santuko. 

On to maintenance: they had some strops there, but discussed a ceramic honing rod with me (could have been my fault - I mentioned the rod first and my toddler was getting antsy, resulting in my need to end the visit before I could bring up sharpening or stroping.  My understanding is that stroping would be in place of honing, but I would still need to have them sharpened or sharpen them myself every few months? Also, I have plastic and wood cutting boards (not end grain, as far as I know).  Is replacing them an important task?

Thanks.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

SRS15 is made to be a fine grained Powdered Metallurgy steel, capable of having higher edge retention than VG-10 and I think in your particular examples, is taken up to a little higher hardness than the Kiri's VG10. I believe @Rick Alan here has a knife made from SRS15 or something similar and hopefully he'll shed some more insight on this. I've only read good things and was recently pretty close to getting that Haruyuki 240mm but took a shot getting something a bit less known :3

I would go gyuto over santoku and a 120-150mm petty. Have a little mineral oil/board oil for the Kiri's handle to apply initially and when needed afterwards.

Honestly? As someone who last year was new to any kind of sharpening or maintenance and got a rod and stones and strops at all around the same time, I did not feel that it was significantly easier to learn how to use a honing rod well. Only 1 hand for angle control and stability vs an edge trailing motion on the stones or strop you have 2 hands. And as a home cook there's not a particular time or space pressure that would force me to use a rod. I know Knifewear has some high grit ceramic rods that they sell but IMO if you have a fine grit stone you can learn to touch up on that about as easily (or a loaded strop).

If your wood board's in good condition and you like it then don't worry about it for now. Keep the thing oiled as needed though.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks 

Given that I didn't like the feel of the handles of the Tojiro, are the ones they recommended a reasonable alternative? Are they good "bang for your buck?" Or are there others I should look at as well/instead? I will be in LA next month, so I can swing by Japanese Knife Imports as well.  I am hoping to make a decision/purchase around that time, mostly so that if I buy in the US, I can use my exemption (no Canadian tax/duties).

Could you or someone please expand on "loaded strop?" I have found some examples of strops online, and they had one in-store at Knifewear, but most places I read talk about putting compound or such to load them. And are honing and stropping essentially the same thing?

I suspect I am going to buy a Chef's Choice for sharpening.  Perhaps down the road I will look at learning hand sharpening, but I currently don't have inclination nor time.

Cheers.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes SRS15 is wonderous wonderful steel. The only steel I would pick over it for all around performance is HAP40, except I don't know of any knives in it that I really like.  The Mugen HAP40 looks like a very expensive project knife, looking way too thick at the edge for that price range, like you might at well get a Kohetsu,

SRS15 a very easy to sharpen, takes a very nice edge for stainless, and just holds it for weeks.  The Masakage looks like a rebrand of a knife sold under several names like Ikea, Akifusa and Geshin Kagero.  I would take the Kagero over the rest because it is made to Jon's exacting specs. It has a very nice profile, lots of flat on the edge.

For inexplicable reasons the knife is particularly good at slicing onions and hard salami.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thank you.  I am also still considering the Gonbei gyuto suggested in the second post.  How would this compare to the Haryuki and Masakage Kiri/Geshin Kagero? Other suggestions are also welcome  I am currently leaning towards the Haryuki because of having felt it in my hands, positive review/words, and I think there is some value to buying locally in term of being able to go back and get help if needed.  I am still unclear regarding a "loaded strop," and stroping versus honing and would appreciate it if anyone can help me with that as well.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm taking a quick break from the dinner stuff so I can get in that compared to the Kagero the Gonbei looks a bit thicker at the spine but thinner at the edge (the Kagero is nicely thin though), its steel is very good but does not compare to SRS15 for edge taking or holding, the Swedish stainless (19C27 I'm guessing) is a little more rugged though but that's probably not a deciding factor here.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

A quick note of clarification- it's the Haruyuki that's said to be the Akifusa/Ikeda rebrand. The blacksmiths who make knives for the Masakage brand seem like they do their own thing with those lines.
I might look at how many sharpenings at Knifewear (I assume the Vancouver location is planning to offer sharpening service like the other locations) you can get out of the cost of a CC. But that's not even a fair comparison in a way because the quality of results are not equal. Can't help but feel like you don't get closer to maxing out what this price and quality range of knives has to offer with a CC


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Let's put it this way, I don't think any one of us even knows of anyone who took A CC to the kinds of knives you are contemplating here.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Noooo...the only people around me who have J-knives (I'm pretty new to this, all things considered) all have them because of me. So they get sharpened on my stones. And the only other J-knife people I've ever talked to in-person are Jon Broida and the guys at Metier Cooks Supply :3


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Chefs choice will damage your knife and not even touch a fraction of the potential of how sharp it should be.   I would suggest talk one of your two local knife vendors and see if they have in house knife sharpening service.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thank you for the advice. 

If I were to try and sharpen with stones, what kind of time commitment would this be and how often would you suspect I need to sharpen? While I enjoy cooking, I probably only make big meals a couple times per week due to work/life time crunch. 

Also, could someone please explain a "loaded strop" to me? When I search, I always find "strop" and "load with compound." Is there something I buy to keep near my knives and use regularly without the need to apply a compound on?


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It depends how dull you want your knives.   The average person that I know will gleefully say that they have never sharpened their knives which came in a block.  They are no good at cooking either.

I would guess you need to do real sharpening 2-4 times a year (20 minutes or so), and you can strop on a finishing stone (30 seconds at most of work) every few weeks.  By strop I mean an edge trailing stroke.  How often you need to sharpen depends on a lot of variables, whether you microbevel, how good your sharpening is, how hard you hit the board when you cut, what foods you cut, etc.

Strop as a noun is a piece of leather that barbers use with their razors.  I don't bother with any of that stuff for knives.  Strops, compounds, any of it.  The edge you'd get doesn't last very long with food.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Agreed about using loaded strops.  I've only consider them for the knives I use to fine slice in-hand.  Even here they will loose their super-keen surprisingly fast.  Sushi chefs don't really take their knives to the board, some of them anyway, yet they touch up before each service.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I initially suggested the loaded strop as a preferable option to use for maintenance vs a honing rod. If you weren't going to be sharpening your knives yourself, that is. But also felt some weirdness suggesting this because in my estimation learning how to do consistent edge trailing strokes is maybe almost half the battle to sharpening using the stones. It would take up about the same space on a counter as a waterstone would

It's hard to list a duration between sharpenings because it varies depending on so many factors. Do you want to stop and touch up whenever your knife whenever you can't fine dice tomatoes anymore? This is a very different amount to time vs 'edge failure'. As a home cook and hobbyist with the leisure to pretty much touch up whenever, I'm not sure if I will ever let any knives to get to edge failure or 'dull' again, for what that's worth.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thank you, these responses have been helpful


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

While reading the thread Nakiri vs Kiritsuke, I saw @foody518's picture of the stainless clad Ikazuchi. I had avoided considering carbon knives, in large part because I was not interested in a patina appearance. I plan to wash and dry my knives after use, so I don't think that part would be an issue. Are there other concerns with stainless clad knives? From Foody's description, I think I would rather like the appearance when the carbon turns grey. For instance, https://knifewear.com/collections/shape-gyuto/products/fujimoto-nashiji-gyuto-210mm caught my eye.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

And as I continue to overwhelm my brain with all the knives out there, are there brands I should avoid?


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Kaganos said:


> While reading the thread Nakiri vs Kiritsuke, I saw @foody518's picture of the stainless clad Ikazuchi. I had avoided considering carbon knives, in large part because I was not interested in a patina appearance. I plan to wash and dry my knives after use, so I don't think that part would be an issue. Are there other concerns with stainless clad knives? From Foody's description, I think I would rather like the appearance when the carbon turns grey. For instance, https://knifewear.com/collections/shape-gyuto/products/fujimoto-nashiji-gyuto-210mm caught my eye.


No personal experience with the Fujimoto. Note by just sheer design of the knife you won't have that Ikazuchi look of polished v cloudy contrast between the blade face and the core steel (you will just have various grays which is fine).

Maintenance is fine if you keep up with it and are attentive to wipe/rinse and dry promptly. Let air dry before storage so you're not trapping moisture on the blade anywhere. And a rust eraser/some type of light abrasive or polish on hand in case rust happens is always a good idea.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Sa...Gyuto-Knife-Nashiji-240mm-Ichii-/381390191813 This is quite a similar thing but with a better handle (not a plastic ferrule)


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Also had this thought recently for more polished face stainless clad carbon- Mostly joking, but if money is really not a limiting factor, there are Murray Carter's knives  https://www.cartercutlery.com/7-26-sun-high-grade-series-freestyle-gyuto-ironwood-193-grams/ but definitely stone sharpening for these


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

While money is not a true limiting factor (holy cow, I saw lots of knives over $1k each - that's not happening), it is my first foray into Japanese knives (or good knives of any kind for that matter). Bang for buck or reasonable intro knives seems like the best approach. 

I ordered some knives yesterday. I decided to try the Tojiro DP 210mm guy to and 150mm petty. I also wanted to try something else for comparison. I contemplated many and my shortlist included Haruyuki SRS15, Masakage Hikari, Sakai Takayuki and Tanaka gyutos. I ended up ordering a Takamura R2 gyuto. Thanks for all your help.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Enjoy the knives! Using them for a while will help you identify what length knife you're going to feel comfortable with. If you find the Takamura edge brittle, be sure to have a way to set a more conservative edge angle (if needed). Edge retention with both knives will probably improve a bit after the initial edge is sharpened away.


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Good choices.  You will likely find that the Takamura especially will microchip rather quickly for the first few shapennings, then suddenly stabalize and work nicely.  For working on the board I recommend sharpening to a steep or acute angle, then microbevel to 15deg plus per side.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks. I don't quite understand what you mean by:



Rick Alan said:


> Good choices. You will likely find that the Takamura especially will microchip rather quickly for the first few sharpenings, then suddenly stabilize and work nicely. For working on the board I recommend sharpening to a steep or acute angle, then microbevel to 15deg plus per side.


I purchased a 1k/6k stone, but haven't yet gone through this yet to help me learn about sharpening (I think it was from a Millions post somewhere)
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/blogs/media/63836741-knife-sharpening-playlist

Could you please clarify your comment for me? And other suggestions for learning to sharpen/strop on stones would be appreciated, including things like whether I should purchase a stone holder. Cheers


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Stone holders tend to give you 2 things - extra height off the surface (helps with knuckle clearance when sharpening) and a grippy/non-skid base for your stones. If you buy a stone mounted on a base (or like what seems to be the case with Shaptons, the plastic case doubles as a base), that definitely helps with the height concern. If it moves around, put a damp towel underneath to prevent skidding on your counter or wherever you plan to sharpen


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry for the long delay, I've been on vacation in Europe and had limited internet access.  But for all things sharpening, microbeveling, beburring, the whole 9 yards, just watch Jon Broida's/Japanese Knife Imports videos on Youtube, you really can't add much to them.

For deburring you can't beat the use of slightly edge-leading lateral strokes he demonstrates.  For microbevels, since I personally want the keenest edge possible, I add them in with just a few light stopping strokes on my finest stones.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

A folded wet dishtowel makes a good stone holder.  Other than that just watch Jon's videos and sharpen your knives when they need it.


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

IMG_2436.JPG




__
kaganos


__
Jan 6, 2017








Here are my new knives, and new end-grain cutting board. Bought them earlier but my wife said they were a Christmas present so I had to wait. It's been fun using them


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

A Takamura and a couple of Tojiros, and the cutting board, nice well thought out spread!  Thanks for showing, it's the kind of thing we're always hoping to see.

Let us know if you need any more stone help.  I'm in the process of picking out a few new ones myself, with some diamond slurry already on the way.

Oops, it's been a while so I just now see you told us about these knives and the stone (the Iminishi I'm guessing) a while back, nice to see it all anyways.  Your patience in waiting to use them is admirable I guess, I very likely would have cheated. ;-)

So let us know how your first sharpening session goes, you do have a very good stone there.

Rick


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Looks great!! Do you feel better about the Tojiro handles? I recall a comment that you'd made about them earlier in the thread


----------



## kaganos (Oct 18, 2016)

Yeah, the handles seem fine, I think I was just over-analyzing. I am primarily using the Takamura at the moment. I am still apprehensive about sharpening, but hopefully it will go well. Thanks again for all the help.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Use the sharpie trick frequently - more frequently than you think. Get the muscle memory to pick an angle and hold it through the course of a sharpening progression.


----------

