# EVOO vs. Butter



## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

Instead of butter, will Olive Oil work as a substitute when making sauces or roux, flavor aside?


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

The Traditional French way to make a roux is with butter, but all it really is are equal parts fat and flour, so yes it would work. But it is worth it to use butter, for me at least.


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## steve a (Mar 13, 2006)

If you're going to do that, 86 the EVOO and go with regular oil. Using extra virgin would be a waste of flavor and it'd be lost in the process.

Ciao,


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## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

It will? Like making a roux for French Onion soup and with sauce recipes as well? That's great. I plan to flavor the EVOO with garlic and seasoning salt. That combination works great with toasted or grilled bread instead of butter and the flavor is in the neighborhood, anyway.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Butter there for flavor your oil is there because it lessens the chances of your butter burning. I agree with SteveA 86 the EVOO and use regular oil.

Rgds Rook


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

I agree... I just personally like butter, but I have used EVOO and regular oil and they have worked just fine... When I worked in Boston (YEARS AGO!!!) for very delicate dishes we used a gee.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

If you want... Cut the butter with oil... That way u can have the butter flavor and the smoking point will increase.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Harold McGee says:
http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15769

Phil


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## mikeb (Jun 29, 2004)

Why even use roux to make a sauce anyway? (theres a reason restaurants no longer do this) If you need a thickener just use a little starch slurry (corn, potato, arrowroot, etc...) to finish. You can also make a vegetable purée and add it to your sauce to finish - thickens as well as adds flavour.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Roux is the traditional way to do it and that is the way some people do it... I often use rouxs, but I also use cornstarch and arrowroot alot... It depends on what I am doing.

As for Harold McGee, I am not going to start an arguement, but it is my belief that olive oil will burn slower than butter becuase of the milk solids, it is impossible for them to burn at the same exact time, if it were a gee or clarified butter, it would be a different story.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Here's a different perspective. Heat olive oil to 400F. Add butter. The butter will burn.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Whoa! Wait a minute fellas I did not say it would not burn I just said lessens the chances and Phatch your reference to Harold Mcgees book is a good one going to have to read up on what he says thanks.

Rgds Rook


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Butter solids burn at a certain temp. Once that temp is reached, it will burn. If you heat 1c butter in a pan it will burn at a certain temp. If you put 1T of butter in 1c of EVOO that butter will burn when that same temp is reached.

Everything burns at a certain temp unless dissolved in water.


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Im sorry, my mistake, totally my fault and I apologize... I thought that you were saying butter burns at the same temperature as evoo, not that the butter will burn no matter if it is in oil or not... my apologies again.


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## diane (Mar 24, 2006)

I am inclined to butter only, longer, slower perhaps, but what a happy outcome. Evoo has its place, obviously, but butter wins, pat down.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Anyway, what sauces are you talking about? Really, the only time in the last 10 years I've ever used roux is for gravy and soups, not sauce.


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## bigwheel (May 26, 2006)

Now whut is this flavor aside stuff? I think you need to get the sheep skin from kindergarten afore you graduate up to axing silly complicated questions to exspurts. Whut part o yankeeland is you from my boy?

bigwheel


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

I guess you are right, more soups and gravy's, but just yesterday I did a gig for 80 people and made a very large amount of Marsala sauce , which I thinkened with a roux.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

As everybody else seems to understand, he is asking what difference using extra-virgin olive oil in place of butter will make when making roux, other than the obvious difference in flavor. Seeing as everyone else understood this, this begs the question of just exactly who is in need of their sheepskin.

Two sayings apply here: 1. There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, and 2. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

On the topic, if you were making a dark roux, you might want to use an oil with a high smoke point to avoid any burnt flavor in your roux. Olive oil doesn't have as high a smoke point as other oils. Also, as mentioned before, cooking destroys the flavor of the extra-virgin olive oil. A cheaper, neutral-flavored oil with a higher smoke point is your best bet.


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## bigwheel (May 26, 2006)

Well the way I interpreted the narrative was the boy claims to want to make a roux but he dont care whut it tastes like (flavor aside)...which begs the question if a person is gonna make a roux and dont care whether or not it tastes like caca..Whut be the point of trying to make roux to start with? Or at the very least why would it matter if he used butter..olive oil..schmaltz or Mobil 1? In this particular scenario I did not feel the inquiry rated a doctoral disertation in the black art/science of roux cookery at least until the seeker provided more info on his goals. I just love pedantic lectures on morality and compooter nettiquite. Thanks so much. 

bigwheel


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

For a Blond Roux, Butter is your best bet, for if you are looking for a dark roux for dark gravys perhaps, use cheaper oils.


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## bigwheel (May 26, 2006)

Well see just as I suspected the original poster to this non sense has done flew the coop so glad to have not expended a bunch of energy on it. Now any right minded cajun know not to use butter to make roux cuz it burns too easy. Try some cheap oleo margarine or regular old hawg lard..or if you want the best use Cottonseed oil. Now this be cajun food roux of course. If a person is making something called a roux which is a raw sissified mixture of flour and butter that Emeril uses to thicken up tater soup etc. this do not apply. It hard to discuss stuff when nobody knows whut we supposed to be talking about huh? 

bigwheel


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

As I Said... for a blond roux, butter is best... Becuase you are not getting it to a burning stage... you are just melting and adding the flour... so butter is fine...


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

A simple explanation allows everyone reading this thread of all backgrounds to be on the same page. A forum is for discussion. Not everyone will interpret a question or answer in the same way, this is the beauty of a forum.

This is an assumption, not everyone has time to live online and I see a healthy discussion addressing different scenarios. There are forums I many not revisit for days, weeks, or even months. A question was posed, and a topic introduced. Threads are not only for the original poster, but for everyone else who wishes to discuss the topic and even more who only read.

Butter is not "better" or "worse", it is the fat of choice for certain types of roux depending on the cuisine. And the quality of ingredients do matter. Butter over margarine, unsalted butter over salted butter, homemade butter over storebought butter. 

Now, butter or oil? "Flavor aside", how do different fats react in different rouxs? Is it possible to substitute one for the other? Obviously the answer is yes, it is possible but not only flavor is changed. Is it recommended to use one or the other? If someone requires oil over butter for health or other reasons, then there are ways to make it work. Deciding which fat to use depends on which roux is being referred to and we can address them all in this thread.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Bigwheel: I'm going to start editing your posts if you can't edit them yourselves.


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## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks. Would I be right in assuming that, in finishing off a sauce - especially those where the fat is usually added for body and 'glaziness', that EVOO would be fine since it incorporates quickly in the sauce and heat is not that big of a factor?

Those are precisely the ideas I had in mind, thanks. I realize there are not always simple answers. Health is a factor that is here to stay, like it or not. And many recipes are far too complex and expensive to risk botching them.

And there are many other complex recipes that use butter as a base, first to saute, then a sauce builds from there as the recipe develops.

Thanks again, everyone, it's a big help already. I can't use butter but I don't want to give up the recipes. I still want to figure out a way to make my favorite dish, traditional Lobster Thermidor, for an extreme example, and to use either the Louis P. DeGouy or the Daniel Rogov recipe.

:chef:


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

*IveyLeaguer*,

Could you be more specific as to why you can not use butter, there may be alternatives other than normal oils if you can provide more info.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Of course, if this is a health issue, there are other ways to thicken sauces beyond roux, as someone mentioned earlier. From using cornstarch to reducing the liquid, there are many ways to thicken a sauce, each one producing a slightly different result.


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## z~bestus (Dec 13, 2005)

MIKEB:
Good Morning. Your proposal to use a starch to use as a thickner is used in low-priced food eateries. It is used there because of the less cost involved. This technique has a name it is referred to as "A WHITE WASH". In a few words this concoction lacks flavor, that is another reason why it is not used.
As Chef Torrie said the roux is the accepted thickner in medium & upscale restaurants. Good luck & have a nice day.
~Z~BESTUS.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

There's a hobby forum I belong to out there and this topic is strangely reminiscent of a couple topics on it. One of them being "Track Power or Battery". This topic can conjure up some of the most interesting views I've ever seen. I guess the same coule be said here.

Personally I have always used butter when making a roux. At time and in differnt moods it has been whole or clarified. There have been also times I have cut this butter with canola, peanut or EVOO. If I used canola or peanut oil it was when I was making a black roux for my gumbo or ettouffee sauce. Slurries(sp?) have no real place in my professionl kitchen. At home well due to rising grocery bills and shrinking pay (or so it would seem) rouxs are more for food prepared during the Holidays. Although this is not to say that out of sheer need and necessity I haven't on a couple occasions tried to bring a sauce back from the grave with a slurry.

With that said... IMHPO, Butter is better. It's proper and it's unrivaled in it's ability as a thickening technique and flavor. But then you be the judge. Make make one type of sauce thicken with the three differnt rouxs. One butter, one cut butter and one all oil. If you can't tell the difference then it really doesn't matter. Just remeber this...It's not "huile" Manié, "huile" blanc or Monté au "huile". (please excuse me since my French is atrocious)


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## cheftorrie (Jun 23, 2006)

Thanks for the Back-Up


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Lots of people around here claiming that a slurry is better or a roux is better or butter is better or oil is better. None is really "better". They all have their proper uses. I would never use a roux to thicken an Asian style sauce or stir-fry or a fruit sauce, while gravy really only tastes right and has the right consistency when made with roux. Roux is also my choice of thickener if I have to tighten a demi just a little or demi based sauces. As for the butter vs. oil. I use butter exclusively for light or blond rouxs, but never use butter for darker rouxs, I find it tends to lend a bitter, burnt taste to the finished product. To discount all other options in favor of only 1 option limits your ability to create dishes with the appropriate tastes and textures.


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

When making a roux for Espagnole sauce, I always use clarified butter and flour. It is my understanding as I follow the process for making the Espagnole sauce that the scum that I am skimming off the top of the stock mixed with the roux is the butter coming out of the sauce. So then, is not my Espagnole sauce pretty much fat free when finished? I rarely see any solidified fat in the jars that I keep in the fridge or after canning them. I thought that the butter was like a "carrier" of the starch component (flour) so that the flour would be evenly dispersed throughout the sauce thus thickening it. Is this an incorrect understanding?

When I roast a pork tenderloin in a rack in a heavy roasting pan, I always deglaze the roasting pan into a sauce pan, and just add flour to create a roux from the pork fat and flour. It seems to work pretty good, and I don't think of the resulting "sauce" as "gravy".

I cannot recall for sure, but thought that the definition of a roux was "fat and starch", so would not any combination of fat and starch make a proper roux? It would therefore seem plausible to choose which combination of fats and starch to make a roux based on the nature of the dish for which the roux is destined and the resulting taste created by the choices.

I am confident that someone will set me straight on my thinking here!

Tx,
doc


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

You'd have to incorporate the oil like you would do for a vinaigrette in order for the sauce and the oil to not separate, I imagine. Use an immersion blender or be prepared for some heavy-duty whisking. Even so, it eventually will break, just like a vinaigrette. The addition of a small amount of mustard will help keep it together if it fits with the dish. There's an emulsifying agent naturally in butter, so it's a little easier to work into a sauce, although a re-heat might break it. 

If you're doing a pan sauce for single use it might work. An alternative would be to use the EVOO as a garnish on the plated and sauced dish.


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

For what it's worth and just for the record..... The from the CIA "The New Professional Chef" 4th edition 1974 the definition of roux is :
"Roux (roo) (Fr.) Equal parts of fat and flour cooked; used to thicken sauces and gravies. Light-blonde and dark roux."

The 5th edition 1991 definition is: 
"Roux (Fr.) An appareil containing equal parts of flour and fat (usually butter) used to thicken liquids. Roux is cooked to varying degrees (white, pale/blond, or brown), depending on its intended use."
I couldn't agree more unfortunately my repertoire of Asian cuisine is very insignificant.
:bounce:  :crazy:


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Absolutely. One is not superior to another. Cuisines evolved due to what the land provided. Butter and wheat flour as known in the US and Europe are not so common in many other parts of the world and their cuisines would just not be the same if butter and wheat flour were used. We use cornstarch all the time. I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

Sure, it's for health reasons. I'm been told to limit myself to Olive Oil and Canola and I'm trying to do that.


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## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

Wow! Good stuff. Thanks, Greg.


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## iveyleaguer (Sep 24, 2003)

Most of my favorite dishes, in fact almost all of them now that I think about it, call for dark rouxs - French Onion Soup, for example. Most of those recipes call for butter but it sounds like that's not gonna be much of a problem.

I feel better already.


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## bigwheel (May 26, 2006)

Ok..editing furiously on this end. I dont like to get outside edited. Thanks. 

bigwheel


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