# Ciopinno



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I noticed that a new member was interested in "perfecting" there Cioppino recipe. What do you say we help him out.
I will post mine later if i have time. Anyone else?
cc


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

So this is what I do:
For fish:
Fresh finfish.I use salmon or halibut because its usually the freshest I can get.
Fresh shucked oysters
Fresh scallops
Frozen Shrimp I usually get Mexican marks.
In-shell clams
In-shell mussels
Sadly, my availability for good really fresh fish is limited, even though I have wholesalers. THEIR idea of fresh and MY idea of fresh are very different......
I make a base of onions, tomatoes, white wine, fresh garlic, basil,a pinch of Herb de' Provence, saffron, let that cook for an hour or two. 
For the fish, I start a saute pan with olive oil, then put in my fin fish, and in-shells. I sear the fin fish, add my shelled crustateans and mollusks, a ladle of base, a little clam juice and put on a tight fitting lid till the shells pop open. I serve it in shallow wide bowls so that the fish is nicely presented. Sometimes fresh Oregon bayshrimp are available and I throw those in at the last moment, so they just get hot. Top with chopped fresh parsley and scallions. I serve this as a lunch special frequently.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I am very much intersted in this recipe Cape Chef, especially with ingredients from the east coast 

I would add to Peachcreek's recipe clams.
But I haven't understood what makes a fish soup ciopinno. 

The herbs maybe ??


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

When I was taught to make Ciopinno I was taught that it included fennel. I have seen many chefs on the East Coast do this also, but recently, I have come across "traditional" recipes on food history websites, that do not include fennel. Does anyone know which way is correct?


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## eyespy3017 (Jan 9, 2002)

Thanks for the help in trying to perfect my Ciopinno, but I have talked with several different people and everyone makes it different!! Some people use fennel and Saffron, wouldn't that be more of a bouillabaisse? They use white wine or red wine, I use both at different stages. Some use can diced tomatoes, I make a concasse( much better) I would love to use fresh in shells, can't always do it though. Availability hinders that. I would have to drive 45 mins to get fresh items. I usually can get vac-packed Tuna, surprisingly very,very nice. I can always get fresh Salmon, and the local yocal supermarket actually had some nice Tiger Shrimp. I always sear the fish first, I did not do it the very first time I made and there is a huge difference:lips:


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I'm curious, is there really any difference between boullabaise and cioppino other than the name? Can one just be French and the other Italian? And What about Pot-au-Feu? Isn't that made the same way too?
Fresh Fennel!!! Always Fennel when I make it. I think it really makes the seafood flavors sing!


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## ruth (Oct 16, 2001)

a good tomato sauce there are no onions.or anything else present in the actual sauce at the end you may need to push thru a sieve. fennel is the flavor that shoud be present and plenty of it,,,,,,,,now for the fish usually clam mussel shrimp squid if you have other fish left over by all means use it. there is no saffron in it . no olives and no rice i recently had a very bad chippino in which all those things were there and it was awful.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Here is Nicko's recipe for cioppino from chef talk recipe archive

Cioppino ( Nicko's recipe)

And from Chef talk archives this is the recipe for mediterranean fish soup with fennel and saffron

Mediterranean Fish Soup With Fennel And Saffron Sauce ( Chef Talk Archives


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

....The Italian regional name "Ciuppin"?
Here in the Italian Riviera this name indicates a fish soup which is completely different from the other Italian fish soups since it's creamy (as a matter of fact it's a sort of bisque). It's obviously made of Mediterranean fish and seafood and traditionally served with small croutons and a garlic sauce. Since it's typical of the western part of Liguria it could be related to a similar Cote D'Azur recipe. According to the posts I read here, Ciopinno doesn't seem the same thing.
Any input?

Pongi


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Ciuppin is in fact from "Liquira" Not fron San Francisco.

There are similarities between the two, But Ciuppin is cooked quite a bit longer to break down the fish (This is were you get the creamyness you descibe,Not from cream) also, Like Bouilibase it have rustic bread slices in the bowl as you add your Zuppa
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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

As far as I know, according to the Italian recipe fish isn't cooked so long, but minced after cooking with a food processor or, better, sieved (don't know if this is the correct word for the Italian "passare al setaccio" ). There is no cream in it, since cream is not used in the true Ligurian recipes...

Pongi


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Italian?
I have heard that it's Portuguese...
I think that the answer to the question of what makes a soup cioppino will be stay a secret like Atlantis... 

Ok this is neurotic, I know, but what makes a fish soup boullabesse is the sea water...Legends say that is made by sea water


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I learned to make bouillabaisse from a crazy chef from marseilles.

This is my favorite of the mediterranean fish stews, Even more then kakavia from greece or suquet from Spain,

The earliest recipe I could find in one of my books was from 1790 and written by jourdin le cointe in his book La Cuisine de sante 
This recipe talked about the fisherman wives boiling the catch of the day in a large couldren, At this time it was called "Matellotte du Poisson, many of the ingredients from the 20th century were used for flavor,But Olive oil was an option.

The Name "bouillibase as used to describe what we now know as bouilibasse was first written in 1830 in the book Le Cuisinier Durand This recipe called for mare expensive items like spiny lobster and sea bream
Anyway, Thanks my quick lesson for today
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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I'm reading "West Coast cook book" by Helen Brown.....low and behold there is a recipe for Cioppino.....but my two cents, fennel and orange with tomato and white wine....that's what I remember differentiates it from others.

OK Helen's version: fish, shrimp, crab, clams, garlic onions, green onions, green pepper, tomatoes, red wine, parsley, oregano and basil.....note; "One story says that SF fishermen did not introduce cioppiono to Cal., but that an Italian named Bazzuro, who ran a restaurant on a boat anchored off Fisherman's Wharf, is responible. What's more, it was supposed to have been an old recipe, well known n Italy. This back in the 1850's. I refuse to believe it!"

So there's Helen's Cioppino.....for those that are unfamiliar with her, she was a great friend and collaborator with James Beard and wrote about the West Coast.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Shroom,
I understand your point.
But, Cioppino did start in italy and was adopted by italian fisherman of San Fran. Then like anything else,it was groomed to suit the region.
cc


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Actually Ciuppin is an old, traditional Italian recipe and there's no doubt that it must have been well known in Liguria before 1850! More, the name Bazzurro (not Bazzuro) is a typical Ligurian family name and the Helen's story, if not true, seem at least likely.
I'm collecting all the Italian Ciuppin recipes I got...a (short) overview is coming!

Pongi


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## flash (Dec 7, 2001)

Cioppino is DEFINATELY from San Francisco. I do not doubt for a second its italian, Ligurian heritage any more than you can doubt North Beach, SF is a thriving Italian-American community--hmmm, and not too far from the wharf either.

It is important to give proper creedence to cioppino as San Franciscan, and more importantly as American for at least a couple of reasons:

1. America is a fairly new country, cuisine takes a long time to evolve, the sooner we realize what is American cuisine, the sooner we will have our cuisine and can honor those that helped shape it (in this case most certainly Italians).

2. We must be ever critical, even vigilant about falling prey to such logical fallacies as 'fallacy of origin'. for example:

"Ciuppin is a fish stew of Italy, frequently cooked in the region of Liguria. Therefore, cioppino, an American fish stew originating in North Beah SF MUST BE from Italy." As a matter of fact, it WAS Italians who cooked the first cioppino, though it did not originate in Italy, but San Francisco, USA.

For the record: Cioppino is a San Franciscan fish stew.



flash


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Flash, I appreciate your passion to all things American.

What I said is that "Cioppino" Which took it's name from "Ciuppin"
was from Italy....I also said when it reached the shores of san Fran It became it's own dish, using seafoods and herbs and spices indiginece to the weat coast waters. For the record Flash, I want to make this very very clear. I am an American, I cook American..But, I respect where my fundimentil skilles in cooking came from. Most of my technique can be traced to the cooks and chefs of europe,as I would guess your's are as well. I am not at all concerened with feeling like I am a trator or something.
have a nice day
cc


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Ok as all the famous recipes it seems that there is not a single version of the recipe.
And how can this possible for a sea soup? I mean you can not be certain on what you are going to bring out of the sea...

I think the diference is in the cooking procedure but I am not going to argue about that with chefs.
IF I observed well in cioppino recipes you braise the fish first something that you do not do in boullabaise or in kakavia .

In Mani we make a Red fish soup also and we call it RED FISH SOUP . We don't call it kakavia or anything else.Although we are the only ones that braise the fish. Of course we do!!! What else are we going to do with the tones of olive oil????!!!

I will call it from now on Peachcreek's soup that originates from Atlantis and mind the one who dares to observe that you do not use Peaches in a fish soup...


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

CC not my quote but Helen's......are we all saying the same thing?


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

We, in America, seemed fixated on where a food comes from, what its origins are, as if it either reinforces the idea that we are a melting pot or that Americans have no cuisine to call their own. Sure our cuisine is young, just as our country is young. We do not have the traditions of many other companies that are hundreds of years older than we are. But, and this is a big but, their cuisines started out just like ours. No cuisine spontaneously formed in any country. As people migrate, they bring their cuisines with them, and over years it gets worked into the local cuisine. This happens in any country. Take Italy for example: where would their cuisine be with out the discoveries of Marco Polo or of Columbus. It certainly wouldn't be the Italian cuisine that we know today, even the cuisine that we know as authentic italian cuisine vs. Americanized Italian cuisine.
Now, I am not saying that we should dismiss the origins of a food. I think that it is important. But, it is also important that their cuisines went through major changes throughout the years due to immigrants and discoveries, just as ours is doing now? So it really becomes a convoluted issue to say where something like cioppino comes from: sure it may have it's basis as an italian tomato and fish soup, but that dish would have never been created in Italy, without tomatoes, which were discovered in America.
So I guess what I'm saying is that don't get too caught up in food origins (no not totally dismiss them either), because food really has no origins, it is something that evolves constantly, taking on new shapes and forms as it moves from one part of the world to another, each area adding it's own special stamp to it.


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## flash (Dec 7, 2001)

Dear Cape Chef,

I totally understand what you are saying, Dude!:lol: 

but I disagree with your statement that...

It's really a trivial matter of semantics, and I'd really rather not argue about this--if that's cool with you. Besides, I think we are in agreement that Cioppino, wherever it comes from, if cooked with love tastes great.:bounce: :bounce:

I do have a question though: Is Cioppino spicy?

My sources say yes, and I have always added a bit of spice (jalepeno or serrano pepper--which reflect the mexican heritage of California and no doubt were present at the time of its conception. Or a bit of chili flakes--the 'evolved' american version). In my opinion, this is the biggest difference between boulliabasse and cioppino--aside from its viscosity (boulliabasse being on the soupier side, until one adds the rouille).





I am sorry cape chef, I cannot standby while you belittle yourself like this:lol:  :lol:

I am an American too, and also cook American, and I too respect where my fundamental skills in cooking came from: AMERICA.
This alone will make for an interesting thread. Why are American chefs not celebrated for being American chefs but only when they return form Europe are they considered learned--when most likely all they did there was peel mushrooms. I hope to god my cooking techniques cannot be traced back to europe, for I have only been there once (when very young) and learned everything I know (and don't know) right here in America. and you are correct, you should not be concerned with feeling like a traitor, nor should you feel that you owe your techniques to european roots--unless of course your life was so lucky as to have been spent in part in the area's of europe. Have RESPECT for all those who practice cooking, yes, I know you do.


really, I am not trying to pick a fight here....

This has nothing to do with pro-american sentiments. To assuage hunger through the pursuit of food is my only goal. I have no allegience to ANY country, and would cook with the same veracity in Bin Ladens Cave as I would in the Presidents Kitchen-One.



thank you,
flash


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Dear Flash,

Thank you for setting everything straight and showing your concern for my "belittling" of myself.

Good luck in your endevoures
cc


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

I mean I don't want to claim the italian origin of Cioppino or maintain that our Ciuppin is better or more "original" than SF Cioppino! BTW, I agree with Athenaeus when he, or she, says that those recipes were not codified, but varied depending on the fish coming from the day's catch and the vegetables the housewives had at home.
More, there's no doubt that Ciuppin and Cioppino are different recipes, for the simple reason that Ciuppin is a fish cream and doesn't contain any recognizable piece of fish, while Cioppino, if I have understood well, contains fish pieces in a tomato sauce, being much more similar to another Ligurian fish soup called "Buridda". I like more considering all these recipes as daughters of the same, old mother, that's not Ligurian or Italian, but generally Mediterranean...and please don't tell me that any dish containing tomato must be considered American! We have had tomato for 500 years and this sounds to me like a nonsense 

Well...coming back to fish soup recipes, I checked all my Ligurian cookbooks and found many Ciuppin (NOT Cioppino!) recipes. They're all almost the same, except for some points:

1) The kind of fish used (see above!). Someone simply says "soup fish", that here means a mix of mullets, scorpion fish and other varieties whose English names I don't know. The most sophisticated recipes use loup de mer, daurades, prawns and shrimps. One recipe also contains octopus.

2)The kind of vegetables and herbs. All the recipes contain carrots, celery and persil, but onions, garlic and even tomato  seem to be optional. Many recipes contain oregano, thyme, marjoram, basil and/or saffron. One recipe contains orange peel.

3) The fish cooking time, which vary between 20 mins and 2 hours. This doesn't seem a critical point since in any case you're supposed to pass the soup through a sieve and reheat it before serving.

The recipe I have chosen is the most famous I got and comes from the restaurant "Palma" in Alassio, which is particularly renowned for its Ciuppin. I have tasted it and can confirm it's true!:lips: 
I must stop now (whew!) but coming back soon with the recipe...

Pongi, your talkative Italian friend


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Thanks Pongi!

VERY insightful and informative.


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## flash (Dec 7, 2001)

ThAnKs PoNgI, ThAt wAs GrEaT!!! Can't wait for the recipe!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: 































Pongi:
:lol: hahaha, it's not the tomato that makes a dish american, it's the CATSUP!!!:lol:



Pongi:
Wow, those are some old tomatoes!!! (they must look like tuffle sized rubies.) No wonder Italy produces some of the best sundried.

.....just having a little fun,

flash


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Pongi, you have missed my point entirely. I never said that any dish that has tomatoes in it is American. I was talking about how difficult it is to trace the origin of a food because it is an ever evolving thing. Each immigrant and explorer adds something new and different to the mix. Once you have discovered the "origin" of a food, dig a little deeper and you will see that it had it's origins in something else, or never existed until a new discovery. In no way was I making a degrading remark about Italian cuisine or trying to blow out of proportion, the discovery of the America's have had on cuisine. This the discussion at hand, that example seemed the most obvious. I could just as easily said look at foie gras, the "apex of French gastronomy" (if you believe that). Anyway everyone considers it a French thing, but it's origins are not French. The French got the idea from Jews in Italy, who in turn, got it from Germanic Jews, who in turn probably saved the knowledge of the making of foie gras for the world after the collapse of Rome, who in turn learned the art of creating foie gras from the Egyptians. So whether a cuisine is 100 years old or 500 years old, it still is not the end all. Dig deeper and you will find that it was created and influenced by someone else.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

...and a reply: Pete, I fully agree with you! I was obviously joking...probably all the discussions about the origin of any food are academic, but they're also part of the fun  

Here it is RESTAURANT PALMA'S CIUPPIN:

Ingredients (serve 6):
4 lbs fresh mixed "soup" fish
2 lbs fresh whole prawns
1 lb fresh shrimps
2 potatoes
1 carrot
1 celery stalk (don't know if it's correct, I mean just a piece, not the whole thing. If wrong, could someone tell me the right word? Thanks!)
2 fresh tomatoes
1 zucchino
Basil, Thyme, Marjoram 
Powdered Saffron 
Grated orange peel
2 glasses dry white wine
salt and olive oil (possibly Extravergine)

Clean, shell and cut in pieces all the fish and shellfish. Sautè them in oil for 5', add the wine, season with salt and cover with hot water. When boiling, add all the vegetables (diced), herbs (chopped), saffron and orange peel. Bring again to the boil, skim the surface, lower the heat and cook covered for about 2 hours. Push all the soup through a sieve, adjust salt and add more saffron if required, reheat and serve in individual bowls with bread croutons.

Only few comments more:

1) As I said, this recipe comes from a pretty sophisticated restaurant and could be considered "too subtle". Personally speaking, I'd add to the vegetables a couple of garlic cloves or scallions or small onions (which are included in all the "traditional" versions).

2)As for the aromatic herbs, you can partially substitute them, i.e. adding persil or oregano, mainly if you don't find fresh marjoram (which is widely available probably only in the mediterranean area).

3) You can also add two or three of those sun-dried 500 years old tomatoes...like the 1000 years old eggs, they are precious and expensive, but if you can afford the expense your Ciuppin will be much better!  

Thanks again for your nice replies,

Pongi


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