# Career path crossroads.



## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi guys! I'm at a bit of a crossroads of my life right now. I just graduated college with a psych degree. I decided that I love cooking my junior year of college when I stopped getting meal plans and moved into a dorm with a kitchen. I tried working at a corporate restaurant as a pantry cook for two months before moving on to a full time job. The restaurant job was meant as a segue until I found "real work".

Despite the food that I prepared being lame, I loved the work. I never looked at the clock through out my shift, waiting for it to end (unless it was closing/cleaning time). Now I'm doing clerical office work, and it totally sucks. I think about food all the time. The only two major factors holding me back from a culinary career is the low pay and the hours. I don't have any loans/interests to pay because my parents payed for my college out of pocket, but I still need to pay them back. Also, i love having my weekends and nights free. There is so much to experience out there and most of it happens during that time frame. I fear being a 40 year old guy and realized that he missed out on life in general. Do any of you guys feel that way? I'm just trying to decide if it's worth it or not. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter. Sorry for the long post.


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

Basilskite said:


> Also, i love having my weekends and nights free. There is so much to experience out there and most of it happens during that time frame.


What? how does most of what life has to experience occur during nights and weekends? besides going out and partying with all the the other folks who enjoy nightlife, I couldn't disagree more.

Plenty to experience in life outside of nights and weekend, and I think anyone who works in the industry will agree, because generally the only time we can "experience life" is the exact opposite of nights and weekends.

If you don't like working nights and weekends, i'd probably consider a different industry, because you won't find many places that will work around your social life, just my .02


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Why SquirrelRJ, my goodness, you just stated that an employee has the right of free speech, so s/he could just speak up about the hours, right?


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Why SquirrelRJ, my goodness, you just stated that an employee has the right of free speech, so s/he could just speak up about the hours, right?


Sure, speak up on all those points if you so choose, and like I said in my post, good luck on getting any restaurant to work around your social life.


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## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

Concerts, roadtrips, to mention that all my friends do the 9-5 gig. I don't drink (alcohol allergy) and I don't do clubs. I would love cooking as a career and am willing to sacrifice a bit of my social life for it. I just don't know if i'll go crazy a few years into the business. Also, the low pay is a huge problem at the moment.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

> I just don't know if i'll go crazy a few years into the business.


My experience was completely the opposite. I was crazy for a years, then I went into the business!


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## josh1110 (Sep 24, 2010)

The payment is enough to get through life and make a savings. If your the type of person who needs a giant house, nice car and stuff a culinary payroll will not make you happy.

Also you can have similar 9-5 jobs..for example in the resturaunt I work I start at 7am-4pm which is pretty much a standard 9-5 job.

0.2 here


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

From what I can tell, you can definitely get a cooking position that will allow you to live like a normal human being (working 8 hour shifts, making above minimum wage with benefits, etc). Generally, these positions come in the form of hotels, retirement homes, etc...

Generally, I'm pretty sure the major deterrent from taking a position like this is a lower quality of food, and a lack of prestige, and less of an opportunity to learn. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions to the rule, of course, but yeah...


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## jmueller (Sep 30, 2011)

It might sound a little straight forward, but my advice is to go ahead and start a culinary career. Hours are indeed long and there are few jobs that can be as tough as being a line cook, but if you are having fun while doing it, it will be very rewarding. I myself missed the window to switch career paths and I regret it almost every day. I think, there is nothing more horrible than doing a job every day that you don't really want to do. You will never be very good at it and you'll hate it so much that you'll feel mentally "exhausted" (can't really describe it in a different way) when you come home - which isn't really the best mood to go party in anyway.


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

Guts said:


> From what I can tell, you can definitely get a cooking position that will allow you to live like a normal human being (working 8 hour shifts, making above minimum wage with benefits, etc). Generally, these positions come in the form of hotels, retirement homes, etc...


A lot of truth here, lots of learning to be had by the chefs in these types of "restaurants" as well.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

In this business youan't have your cake and eat it to  unless your lucky and fall into something. It's weekends, nights, holiday etc. Thats the nature of the beast. If you did not want to work at these times and everyone felt the same. Then who would cook,  feed  or serve you when you went out at these times???


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## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

Guts said:


> From what I can tell, you can definitely get a cooking position that will allow you to live like a normal human being (working 8 hour shifts, making above minimum wage with benefits, etc). Generally, these positions come in the form of hotels, retirement homes, etc...Generally, I'm pretty sure the major deterrent from taking a position like this is a lower quality of food, and a lack of prestige, and less of an opportunity to learn. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions to the rule, of course, but yeah...


Yeah, if I was to dive full force into this, I'd want to learn as much as possible.


JMueller said:


> It might sound a little straight forward, but my advice is to go ahead and start a culinary career. Hours are indeed long and there are few jobs that can be as tough as being a line cook, but if you are having fun while doing it, it will be very rewarding. I myself missed the window to switch career paths and I regret it almost every day. I think, there is nothing more horrible than doing a job every day that you don't really want to do. You will never be very good at it and you'll hate it so much that you'll feel mentally "exhausted" (can't really describe it in a different way) when you come home - which isn't really the best mood to go party in anyway.


I don't mind the long hours or the tough work. It's the time of day those hours are spent that's deterring me. I'm sorry you missed your window JMueller. I think I'm starting to see what you're saying. I'm realizing that there is nothing out there besides cooking that I can put my heart into and actually be good at it.


chefedb said:


> In this business youan't have your cake and eat it to unless your lucky and fall into something. It's weekends, nights, holiday etc. Thats the nature of the beast. If you did not want to work at these times and everyone felt the same. Then who would cook, feed or serve you when you went out at these times???


What, so I'm obligated to sacrifice my nights and holidays to serve the greater good? Ha.


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## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks for the response guys. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that if I don't do this, I'll be a miserable dude for possibly the rest of my life. I'll get used to forgoing a social life as I gradually lose touch with my friends /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crying.gif


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

Basilskite said:


> What, so I'm obligated to sacrifice my nights and holidays to serve the greater good? Ha.


Yes. If you love this industry as much as some of us, you give up those little things in life to do what you really love, that's my opinion and outlook on being a chef.


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

Basilskite said:


> What, so I'm obligated to sacrifice my nights and holidays to serve the greater good? Ha.


No, you're obligated to sacrifice your nights and holidays because that's the job description and no job is perfect. Whether you love it or not, work is work and you'll never have a job that has all the positives with none of the negatives.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Sorry but thsts the nature of the business. Suggestion  Stay out of it, and follow up on your degree become a psych.


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Basilskite, sounds like you want to start at the top. you need to pay your "dues" first, and that means the long hours, lousy shifts, lousy pay, and so on. All of us had to do it, and some continue to do so. That's fine when you're young and unattached. Hey, you'll always find work, anywhere in the world, if you're good at it. That's one of the advantages of being a cook. But as you grow older (trust me on this one) your priorities change. Family, life style, other interests. You'll want to settle into a more regulated work schedule, and yes, to have your evenings and week ends off is really nice, especially if you have kids. So, once you know the trade, and you have the experience to go with it, you can opt for a chef's job at a hotel, a corporate chef's position, teaching, research, whatever... These are highly coveted positions, however, and you have to earn them. They don't hand them out to greenhorns...

Good luck on your quest.


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)




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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Steelbanger said:


> Basilskite, sounds like you want to start at the top. you need to pay your "dues" first, and that means the long hours, lousy shifts, lousy pay, and so on. All of us had to do it, and some continue to do so. That's fine when you're young and unattached. Hey, you'll always find work, anywhere in the world, if you're good at it. That's one of the advantages of being a cook. But as you grow older (trust me on this one) your priorities change. Family, life style, other interests. You'll want to settle into a more regulated work schedule, and yes, to have your evenings and week ends off is really nice, especially if you have kids. So, once you know the trade, and you have the experience to go with it, you can opt for a chef's job at a hotel, a corporate chef's position, teaching, research, whatever... These are highly coveted positions, however, and you have to earn them. They don't hand them out to greenhorns...
> 
> Good luck on your quest.


I have always had issues with this type of thinking.

It boils down to ego and the fact that many Chefs feel they have a right of ascension to the title after having "paid their dues"

I find this type of attitude more among the older Chefs who got their education from the "school of hard knocks."

It's rubbish and stinks of elitism.

Many young people go to culinary school, graduate and get a job working on a line in a restaurant.

Many of them as well go on to other food service venues, such as school cafeteria work, or other institutional feeding.

YES......the students who graduate must get their experience somehow.

YES...the young people who start out right out of college don't know everything.

But...it is THEIR life and THEIR experiences to learn from.

If their schooling and experiences qualify them for a position that is better than "entry level" than all the better.

There are quite a few of the old guard here on these threads that feel this way. You can sense it in the way they answer questions put to them. It's sad really.

I don't believe that one can group all school graduates into this category.


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## brasciole (Oct 4, 2011)

My suggestion is to try it. You'll never know for sure unless you do. I worked in restaurants for 15 years when I had some major life changes, divorce, moved across the country. I had the opportunity to take a job, working for my uncle (big mistake btw) as a warehouse manager of a few furniture stores. 9-5 weekends off, great $$ it sounded like a dream come true. Guess what, it was a nightmare. I learned that I belong in the kitchen, that is what I love to do. The long hours, late nights and always working weekends and holidays gets tough. But life is too short to be unhappy, follow your dreams you will know if it's not for you. Don't forget, there are places that are open for breakfast and lunch too. Good luck.


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## brennansullivan (Apr 28, 2011)

i think everyone who wants to cook needs to be prepared to dedicate your life to work if you ever want to suceed. cooks defiantly do not live like everyone else but i guarentee life in the kitchen is 10 times more exciting and fulfilling than working a 9-5 in an office with boring people. plus being able to party basically any night of the week and still get decent sleep is nice (if you work the evening service as a line cook, which is the most exciting imo and how you will be living until you can move up) and don't go to culinary school... considering you already have experiance, that will be all you need


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Chefross,

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that someone new to the profession is fair game for abuse or unfair treatment, but you do have to agree that there is a ladder you have to climb to get to the top. That is the case in all professions, especially the trades where practical experience is so important. Yes, it's all about experience and skill, but that comes only from actually working in the field. No culinary degree or any time spent studying or looking in from the outside will prepare you for the real world. The reason for the "hard knocks" is so you can stand up to your charges (ie the cooks and sous-chefs who work under you) and get their respect. If you can't walk the walk, they'll soon figure out that you are a "paper tiger" and they won't respect you. You may not agree, but that's the way it is, whether you're a cook or a plumber or an electrician.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Steelbanger said:


> Chefross,
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that someone new to the profession is fair game for abuse or unfair treatment, but you do have to agree that there is a ladder you have to climb to get to the top. That is the case in all professions, especially the trades where practical experience is so important. Yes, it's all about experience and skill, but that comes only from actually working in the field. No culinary degree or any time spent studying or looking in from the outside will prepare you for the real world. The reason for the "hard knocks" is so you can stand up to your charges (ie the cooks and sous-chefs who work under you) and get their respect. If you can't walk the walk, they'll soon figure out that you are a "paper tiger" and they won't respect you. You may not agree, but that's the way it is, whether you're a cook or a plumber or an electrician.


You are correct but that is not the issue I speak of. I am referring to the way some Chefs always feel they have to put down a cook in order to make themselves feel better. Case in point: On another thread we were asked if we'd seen a program on TV that followed a N.Y. Chef as he was canned from one place only to open another. A filmed scene was shown where this Chef was telling two young cooks that he'd "knock their heads together" if they got it wrong. Someone posted to the thread that there would be some bad consequences if the Chef tried to do that to him.

Some of the older Chefs here have gone through somethings just like that in their careers, only the fists DID fly and the Chef had some real anger management problems that he could not control. I myself had such a situation many years ago with a flying saute pan.

Now is this type of behavior going to make me a better Chef?

Is this what is referred to a "School of hard knocks?"

I realize that these types of places still exist. School is not going to prepare you for this.


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Chefross I have not seen the program, but I agree with you. Abusive behavior is never acceptable. I work in a large corporate environment and we have oodles of people running around whose job it is to make sure we are all behaving professionally all the time. I myself have never had need to "knock" anyone's head together, and if you saw me (I' m six-foot-something and was a martial arts champ in my younger days) you'd understand why  I never had anyone threaten me, either. Beside the point, though. if you, as a chef or supervisor of any sort can't get your team to work as a team, then there is something wrong in how you manage your staff. Bad apples need to be managed out, yes, but that does not have to involve fists or abusive behavior. Everyone, no matter how badly they screw up, deserves to be treated with basic human respect (I'm talking strictly in an employer / employee relationship). Yes, some chefs forget that and think their stature as a chef gives them license. After the first time I saw Gordon Ramsey on TV I was close to writing a letter of protest to the British chef's association  to have him disbarred- if there is such a thing. I opted to stop watching tv instead...


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Sorry, basilskite, looks like we're hijacking your post into a different direction. Okay, here's my suggestion: do what your heart tells you to do, but keep a cool head about it. Try to evaluate where you want to be in two, five, ten years from now. Do you love to cook and want to be the best ever cook out there? Do you like running a kitchen, have staff to manage, create menus and such? Are you an operator or an administrator. Do you just like the hands-on aspect of cooking (could you find the same satisfaction being a furniture maker or land scaper?), or is it all about the food? (do you see a rabbit and go "how cute", or do you go "Yum!"). No kidding - those are important questions on how you relate to food and cooking, because just "liking" it, and doing this for a living are not the same thing.

Depending on the answers you find for yourself (say, yes you REALLY want to be a cook), then I would recommend a combination of schooling at a reputable culinary institution, and apprenticing for a good, and hopefully benevolent chef. If lifestyle and pay are more important, you may opt to apply at a hospital, a school cafeteria or corporate dining facility where you can work week days, daytime hours and, if unionized, make better than average wages. Chances are you will not learn a helluvalot, and the culinary environment certainly won't be very challenging. I hate to say that it's not likely that you can find a combination of both scenarios. Good luck to you in either case.


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## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

To be clear, I don't think I should be owed anything. I understand the necessity to start at the bottom and the painstaking climb towards the top. I'm just trying to decide if it's worth starting with such low pay in this economy and the existence of my college debt to my parents. But they are supportive of me and I know that as of right now, I don't want to do anything else. I have always liked building things with my hands, but I've never been into anything like I am with cooking. I think a trade type job that involves creativity is perfect for me.

I'm looking around for work right now. Besides craigslist, is there any other site dedicated to restaurants looking for workers? Also, is going to the restaurant to speak to the chef about work between 2pm-4pm on weekends a good idea? Or are they typically too busy with prep? I don't have any other choice with my current 9-5 job.


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

Chefross said:


> . A filmed scene was shown where this Chef was telling two young cooks that he'd "knock their heads together" if they got it wrong. Someone posted to the thread that there would be some bad consequences if the Chef tried to do that to him.


That was me, and it was more along the lines of " If you send me another F'ing piece of meat like that, i'll put both your heads through that F'ing wall"

That's a threat, clear as day, and shouldn't be tolerated in any workplace.


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## chef kdsimpson (Sep 21, 2011)

I've been in and out of the industry myself. I had a office job for a little while there working as a data analyst and applications tester (being paid very well for it) but the hospitality industry has always called me back. It seems a shame to not use your Phsyc Degree but I'm sure everything you learnt will set you up for the hospitality industry and better set you up for dealing with lots of different personality types.

Reality Check: If you're worried about turning 40 and feeling like you have missed out on something then I'm sure that you're going feel that way regardless of what path you take. You just need to make a firm decision and stick with it. I can almost guarantee that the people you meet in hospitality can be just as close friends as any other business, perhaps even more.

There _is_ so much to experience out there and you'd be surprised at how much more can be opened up when your hours are more flexible.

At the end of the day, depending on how hard you're willing to work, you can move to any position and get all the things you want, weekends and night off and a decent pay rate. But you need to know what you want and have the balls to ask for it. Remember: You don't get if you don't ask.

Anyway I hope that helps.

KDSimpson


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

> That's a threat, clear as day, and shouldn't be tolerated in any workplace.


Hate to take the thread off topic again, but I'd just like to point out that I don't think that what was said was legitimate threat. I mean, clearly he wasn't/isn't actually going to put their heads "through the wall". I've worked with Chefs that make similar "threats". They're just conveying that they're not pleased and that they take what they do seriously. Not saying I agree with this method, or that it works - just saying that it isn't really a threat so much as the purpose is to make a point.


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## squirrelrj (Feb 18, 2011)

Guts said:


> Hate to take the thread off topic again, but I'd just like to point out that I don't think that what was said was legitimate threat. I mean, clearly he wasn't/isn't actually going to put their heads "through the wall". I've worked with Chefs that make similar "threats". They're just conveying that they're not pleased and that they take what they do seriously. Not saying I agree with this method, or that it works - just saying that it isn't really a threat so much as the purpose is to make a point.


That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinions!

IMO, that point can be conveyed without using such a method, much better ways to motivate... they didn't make the movie because the guy was a even keeled chef who is a great leader.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

SquirrelRJ said:


> That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinions!
> 
> IMO, that point can be conveyed without using such a method, much better ways to motivate... they didn't make the movie because the guy was a even keeled chef who is a great leader.


I'm in agreement, instead: "Do that once more and you will be terminated for insubordination!"

Much clearer, no physical threat, and certainly easier to carry out. Besides, no unemployment to worry about /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Basilskite, do call the chef before you go and talk to him / her. 2pm on a saturday may be a good time, but it depends always on how busy they expect to be. Restaurants are heading into the busiest time of year, with the various holidays and Christmas approaching, so you may want to plan your visit. This also demonstrates that you are sensitive to their schedule. I used to hate it when job applicants called me during service, and I'm still sensitive to never call a chef at that time unless he or she asks me to. One option would be to target specific operations which are of interest to you, do your research as to who is who in it, and then approach them and explain to them why you want to work for them, and nobody else. Much more effective than just "looking for a job". Once you have made contact, offer to do a "working interview" where they get to try you out for a day - or evening, and you get to try them, too. This works for some operations, however some large organizations are a bit leery because of liability. I'd check into it, anyway. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


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## whiz (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm in a similar position. Graduated with a B.S in business and after a year doing accounting and administrative stuff I realize I want to get into cooking. I'm going to be doing a culinary program shortly and hope that it's something I enjoy professionally. If cooking burns me out hopefully my business background will help me get into restaurant management. I think your psych degree could help with that as well because I've worked with a lot of people in the business field that have psych degrees. It's a good general education to have for a variety of things. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

PeteMcCracken said:


> I'm in agreement, instead: "Do that once more and you will be terminated for insubordination!"
> 
> Much clearer, no physical threat, and certainly easier to carry out. Besides, no unemployment to worry about /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


I haven't seen the movie, so I can't say if this was the first time the cooks made this particular mistake or not. In any case, an HR person will tell you that as an employer you have an obligation to provide guidance and remedial opportunity before terminating an employee. Some jurisdictions have grace periods during which you can terminate an employee for no specific reason, and these vary from 30 days to six months from the start date. After that, an employee has a right not to be terminated without cause. At the very least he or she will be entitled to severance, and even then there may be grounds for a wrongful dismissal claim. Every employee has a right to be properly trained for the expectations of the particular job and it is up to the employer to prove that reasonable steps have been taken to allow the employee to perform to the expected standard. I would be hesitant to tell a cook "do this again and you're fired" if it is a first or second mistake. Documentation is everything. This, of course, does not apply to serious situations such as theft, assault, fraud, etc...


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

Don't think I've ever worked in a restaurant that tip-toed through all the legalities. No breaks, or shorter breaks than labor laws allow, lower than minimum wage pay or daily salary style paycheques, shit like that happens all the time in this industry. I don't know what magical kitchens you guys have been working in where there's severance, standard hours, standard wages, documentation, and inappropriate conduct ("threats", inappropriate jokes, etc) isn't tolerated.


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## basilskite (Sep 25, 2011)

'



Chef KDSimpson said:


> I've been in and out of the industry myself. I had a office job for a little while there working as a data analyst and applications tester (being paid very well for it) but the hospitality industry has always called me back. It seems a shame to not use your Phsyc Degree but I'm sure everything you learnt will set you up for the hospitality industry and better set you up for dealing with lots of different personality types.
> 
> _Reality Check: If you're worried about turning 40 and feeling like you have missed out on something then I'm sure that you're going feel that way regardless of what path you take._ You just need to make a firm decision and stick with it. I can almost guarantee that the people you meet in hospitality can be just as close friends as any other business, perhaps even more.
> 
> ...





Steelbanger said:


> Basilskite, do call the chef before you go and talk to him / her. 2pm on a saturday may be a good time, but it depends always on how busy they expect to be. Restaurants are heading into the busiest time of year, with the various holidays and Christmas approaching, so you may want to plan your visit. This also demonstrates that you are sensitive to their schedule. I used to hate it when job applicants called me during service, and I'm still sensitive to never call a chef at that time unless he or she asks me to. One option would be to target specific operations which are of interest to you, do your research as to who is who in it, and then approach them and explain to them why you want to work for them, and nobody else. Much more effective than just "looking for a job". Once you have made contact, offer to do a "working interview" where they get to try you out for a day - or evening, and you get to try them, too. This works for some operations, however some large organizations are a bit leery because of liability. I'd check into it, anyway. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


Ok I'll keep all that in mind. A coworker from that restaurant job I worked at got her position by coming in and asking. But I'm sure not everybody is ok with that.


Whiz said:


> I'm in a similar position. Graduated with a B.S in business and after a year doing accounting and administrative stuff I realize I want to get into cooking. I'm going to be doing a culinary program shortly and hope that it's something I enjoy professionally. If cooking burns me out hopefully my business background will help me get into restaurant management. I think your psych degree could help with that as well because I've worked with a lot of people in the business field that have psych degrees. It's a good general education to have for a variety of things.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's good to know. Good luck with your endeavor Whiz!


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