# Where Does The War Leave Us



## culinarian247 (Jan 21, 2002)

I'm very interested in how you all feel this war will leave us. What do you feel will be the overall perception of te United States after the conflict?


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

So my wife and I are driving to pick up our son from daycare, we had just gotten off our respective jobs, I am on the cellphone talking to her mom while she was driving, when a cop pulls us over. We weren't speeding, I don't let her talk on the phone and drive, we both had our seatbelts on. The officer asked why he pulled us over and my wife did'nt know why, but the officer said that we had crossed over the median and gave us a warning. It should have ended right there. Then he asked if I would step out of the car. I step out and the officer tells me that he is certain that I am on drugs and that he wants to search me. So I let him and he finds nothing. So then he asks to search the car. My wife(who is 7.5 months pregnant) asks if he is arresting her and he tells her that she now has to submit to a field sobriety test! She asks to talk to her lawyer and the officer tells her that she is obstructing justice and arrests her cuffs her and throws her in the back of the squadcar. Then they come and handcuff me. By now there are three other cars, five other narcotics officers and a drug dog on the scene. The drug dog jumps in my car, sniffs around and jumps out and takes a pee! I thought it was hilarious, the cops did'nt find it as funny. They search me, her, go through the contents of our persons and car and find nothing. They were vacuuming up my car mats and testing the samples and found nothing. Then they uncuffed me and told me I could go. As soon as I touched the doorhandle of my car another officer came up and told me now that I had to have another field sobriety test, and even if I chose to not drive that it would be considered refusing to take a test, even though I wasn't driving! So I took it and passed. Then they let ME drive off. My wife was ticketed for DUI because she refused a field sobriety test, even though she was never booked. Hmm. The officer who originally pulled us over was a young guy. I could easily be his dads' age. But the guy was so freaked out and tense that I swear he was ready to get somebody, anybody, and it just happened to be me. I am sure that under circumstances much different that he was an OK guy. But the police and everyone else is so keyed up that stuff like this happens. And I used to think this was a friendly town.....


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I remember hearing a story of an Idaho cop pulling someone over for speeding. The speeder radioed his friends for help. A short while later they appeared at the site and to intimidate the cop they all surrounded him.

Sorry, it takes all kinds and I'm all for public safety although the cop you encountered seems overzealous.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Peachcreek, what a funny/awful story. At least you have a sense of humor about it.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

Yes well Peachcreek with the Patriot act and the patriot act 2 coming it will get much worst than that...


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## mike (Jan 24, 2003)

id have wet my pants...were lucky here in that very few cops carry guns..that must be really intimidating...our police system is now so politically correct they wouldnt hassle you for nothing.
reminds me of two stories
1; A buddy of mine was pulled over about 15 years ago & made to strip in the street (drugs search)they found nothing & my chum remembered their badge numbers.He then went home & told his dad who was chief of police...ooops!!!
2; I was in Paris on my 16th birthday & had lost my way to our coach rendevous.I asked an old lady in pidgeon French where my rendevous was located,,,she ducked into a doorway & started screaming..I was so freked out I started laughing, next thing a cop is running towards me with a gun .That was scary.
guess a uniform does something to a man.

chow


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

One constant thing in my life has been that I am here for the experiences of life. To be open to whatever lies ahead of me. Nothing, not a thing I can think of could prepare me to have my wife and I be handcuffed by the sheriff deputies, her being led away,seven months pregnant. For doing nothing. Just for being there, driving to do an everyday errand.
I would expect this to happen in a foreign country with a corrupt police force, but not here in the good ol' USA. I was interrogated. There by the side of the road, in handcuffs, after they have searched through everything several times and found nothing, they interrogated me until they had me confess to something- that sometime, years ago I might have been at a party where pot was smoked. That is when they all kind of smiled and told me I was free to go. I never felt like I was "innocent till proven guilty". They just kept searching harder and harder trying to find ANYTHING after they could'nt find drugs or anything else. I guess I am lucky that I did'nt have my chefs' knives in the back seat! They also told me they were looking for weapons and if I had anything like a pocketknife, and I don't even carry a nail clipper.... And the scary thing is we don't do anything! And we weren't doing anything when we were pulled over. Not even for a traffic infraction. We were pulled over specifically to be searched. They were expecting to find something. They thought we were guilty of something and with enough interrogating and searching that SOMETHING would come up. But it did'nt. They picked up the wrong people. But the other scary thing is that to the officers it didn't seem to matter whether we were innocent or not. And when I got even the littlest upset about the fact they were detaining me they told me I was being "aggressive". They were going to arrest somebody. I have never been afraid of the police or sheriff until now. I have never been arrested or investigated. I have only 2 traffic tickets my entire life! I don't even have any unpaid parking tickets! 




Later,when we were home and I had calmed down and had a beer I told my wife we need to re-rent "Brazil", because she might appreciate it more......


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Welcome to the U.S.A.: The United States of Ashcroft.

You ain't seen nothing yet. There's no doubt we need to be vigilant and proactive, but in this, Pogo was right: "We have met the enemy, as he is us." And he didn't mean homegrown terrorists; he meant a government gone MAD.

I'm no Libertarian (I'm several miles on the other side of the political spectrum). They think the government is intrusive by levying taxes. But I wonder what they think of the experience Peachcreek describes above? You can't even go to the library without a librarian being forced to render up your check-out list and computer usage report if the feds come knocking.


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

Gentlepersons.....

I enjoy your examples, however, even for me, I think you are mislead, and may the power of FOOD help you


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I was never pull over by cops in my country. However when I crossed the Russian border en route to, what was know then as, Leningrad, I was held not at gun point but machine gun point because I refused to let the Russian soldier to take my passport off the bus and into the border building. Let's just say that I quickly changed my mind.


A year or so later in Tangier the ferry operators were in strike and the only way out of Morocco was by plane. We bought tickets to Madrid and race to the airport where a big guy with mirrored sunglass decided that we would go through a search. After finding nothing on us, we were then separated and I was send into a little room with a woman who decided I need to be stripped search. I called that "The Midnight Express" search. I'll spare you the details and will only add that the only place they didn't search was in my shoes...


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## smokinman (Jan 28, 2003)

Not to make light of your situation, but don't feel too bad. They could have torn your car apart looking for "contraband" and you'd have to pay for the damages. I mean cutting into your upholstry (spellings off, you know what I mean) and such. You really didn't get it too bad.
A few brief stories:
-A friend of mine was ticketed for speeding...on a bicycle!
-I was "pulled over" on foot! I was told I seemed suspicious for being out so late. This was at midnight or so.
-Another friend of mine was hit on his bike by a pickup running a stop sign. The driver admitted fault to the police officer on site. My friend was arrested for DUI (he had a beer or two at a party). The driver was told no charges would be filed/ticket issued because the biker was DUI. My friend had a broken leg and got a suspended license...for riding a bike over the legal limit! Which here in Indiana is 1 drink/2hrs or so.


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## pinarello (May 3, 2002)

Isn`t that homeland security?
Are you not happy about the heightened security of the working class?
And then what happens if you oppose it?

Its scarry.

And I think it takes so little in the case of peachcreek, for the police to plant something in your car. I mean they where already convinced of you being guilty of something.


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## pinarello (May 3, 2002)

Here is a story of mine that happened about two years before 9/11.

We where going on holiday and changing planes in Philly. On going through security at a big international airport I commented to my wife how the tons of airport security really looked like they all had no idea what was going on. It seemed that it was the exact same person who just finished their shift at the food court and picked up some extra hours at the international security check.
Allthough we are married and share the same last name we where unable to go through the passport check together, because our passports are not from the same country. 
My wife speaks very good english although she didnt know the word beltbuckel and walking through security she beeped and the guard asked if she had a beltbuckle, she didn't understand and took maybe 30 seconds to think about the question, but the highly trained expert in international diplomacy started yelling BELTBUCKEL, BELTBUCKEL not even giving her 30 seconds to think about what he wanted. She was so shaken up after she finally figured it out.

I thought it really was a joke, the security I mean.

And this was at a major airport in America where 1000s of people change planes every day.


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

:chef: 

Not to diminish anyones experience, and they all have very valid points, but it seems to me that these are relatively normal American experiences.....

Aren't we always hearing stories of the sort? especially with state police, and hasn't airport security always been a joke???

What country offers more freedom of speech, movement, and creed than ours???

I fully remember going through the Rome and Heathrow
airports, long before 9/11, and wondering of the VERY young men with submachineguns throughout.....of being harassed by customs, of being eyeballed by the police....

In the heartland, traveling through, I have certainly experienced what can only be classified as bigotry and prejudice and unecessary suspiscion LONG before 9/11.

I personally don't subscribe to the belief that our rights as citizens are being vilolated anymore than they ever have been. I.E., don't blame it on the war!

I DO have a friend from Yemen, who is a business owner, who has been, and is currently undergoing a significant amount of harassment over things like visas and resident status...THAT I would blame on the war, although, given the circumstances, how can you blame our government, and WHICH government, exactly, is more tolerant than our own???

Support your country and your countrymen; and all people of peace:chef:


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## smokinman (Jan 28, 2003)

I don't think anyone will argue that airport security in the US needed to be beefed up, but there are some really strange things occurring. I heard a report recently that a foriegn classical music group had to cancel all US dates due the a problem with the visa of one of the members. He was denied entrance due to his "suspicious criminal past." He had shoplifted a pair of fingernail clippers ten years ago. Doesn't that seem a bit silly?


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

I would probably respond by saying that a man who is being persecuted for a fingernail clipper violation from 10 years ago is false and/or misinformed 
Honestly, I have been detained for a similar violation, but I didn't take it personally...:chef: :chef:


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## pinarello (May 3, 2002)

There is a canadian author who stopped his book tour of the US because the way he was humiliated time after time at the airports. His ancestors are from India.


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## chef1x (Dec 4, 2002)

I have been detained, and some would say humiliated in the past 2 years by having security people remove my belt, checking down my pants, constantly removing my shoes, searched, prodded, my luggage rifled through......I'm American born, I speak perfect English and my appearance is somewhat ordinary ....

I'm sure we could find American authors who have been equally mistreated while touring overseas...

again, I don't take it personally, and you have to realize that there is also a learning curve on these things...the more experience security people have with this situation, the better and more efficient it will become. Myself, I feel safer that at least someone is trying. 
I don't feel like my rights are being violated, although we must allow for some margin of error and exception......

Pinarello, please understand that I am not trying to refute your claims or your gripes, because they are valid and the circumstances that you describe should not exist....I just ask that you balance what you have experienced with what normally occurs in other countries.....

the bottom line is that there is a MISperception about what is actually happening in this country. 

I wish peace and food to all the good chefs of the world:chef:


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I'd argue that the government has no role in airport security and that Homeland Security is unconstitutional also. 

But few here would be surprised at that...

Phil


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

OK, I'm intrigued. 'splain the unconstitutionality of homeland security  

Jock


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

The simplest ones are under the fourth amendment under the illegal search and seizure clause. As has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court, wiretaps require judicial review as do search warrants. 

On the premise of terrorism or homeland security, wiretaps, bugs and searches do not require judicial review. So whether you are a terrorist or not, all that is required is someone to have the whim or idea you're a terrorist and your Fourth Amendment rights are gone with no due process.

Your Library records and other such things are also open to public scrutiny. Under the argument that your use of the library is a public behavior, you have no expectation of privacy for what you read or do there. So law enforcement can get those without your permission or a subpoena. It would also be legal for anyone else to access those records just because they want to.

Phil


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Gosh, all this sounds so familiar.... could it be the reasons cited in the Declaration of Independence, given as rationale for breaking with GB? (I mean Great Britain, not George Bush.)

The benign-sounding name of the department is a real oxymoron in my mind. Who will feel more secure? Not I.

I'm a great believer in the observation that life imitates art. Have a look at Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale . More and more of it is coming true each day.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

I could relate many, many stories of abuse by police officers-being shaken down all the time as a teenager because they ''knew I had pot on me'', a couple of friends being arrested, manhandled, and held without given a reason because they slightly resembled 2 guys who supposedly tried to snatch a little girl off the street (of course it wasn't them, and the resemblance was they had long hair), having my car searched anytime I was pulled over, as a teenager, because once I had booze in my car. I could go on and on. 

It seems that many people here are relating police to homeland security. And I really don't think there is much of a connection at all. Most of the issues that homeland security brings up (and I abhorr many of them) are really issues that the Feds are dealing with, not local law enforcement. Police forces have always had a few ''bad apples'' that soil their name. This has been true long before 9/11 and will continue to be true. Don't get me wrong, I am not making light of anyone's situation, having been there many, many times. But I don't think you can translate those situations to Homeland Security.

I am definately apaulled by some of the actions of Homeland Security and some of the issues of freedom that the Patriot Acts seem to be stepping on. I am sickened that, in the US, we still have possible ''terrorist suspects'' being held under unconstitutional conditions, or that the government can arrest anyone of us based on illegal wiretaps or searches. But one thing I can't feel bad about is ''beefed up'' security at airports. For years, when I traveled abroad I was always singled out to further searches by security at international airports, just because I looked like a pot-head. Yes it was an inconvience, but I never got mad because I had been ''profiled'', I actually couldn't believe that I travelled around the US so freely, compared to in Europe and Africa. The fact that they use racial profiling to help determine who warrents extra searching, while saddening, is unfortunately necessary. But if it helps make the skies (and ground) safer for it, then it must be done. And when the US is attacked by more homegrown terrorists, such as T. McVey, then I will willing subject myself to the same profiling standards as others. Remember I have already been there based on the fact that I was a ''long-haired hippy'' who must be smuggling pot.

Doesn't mean that I don't have my ''little ways'' to ''get even''. I have been but on the computer lists already, once again, for extra security measures because a few trips ago I lost my license and had to use some alternate forms of ID. Now, everytime I travel by plane, I get pulled aside for extra checking. So the last time I flew I made sure to wear the nastiest, smelliest shoes I owned. Boy, did that security officer get a face full when he went to check my shoes!! Could almost see him gag!    Okay, so some old anti-establishment behaviors die hard.


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## jock (Dec 4, 2001)

OK, I'll buy that some homeland security measures are definately questionable. But here's a thought; If these same unconstitutional methods could have been applied to stop the 9/11 attacks, is there anyone anywhere who would object?

Pete, your story reminds me of the customs officials I used to encounter in San Juan PR. I used to be in the merchant marine and sometimes I'd sign off from a ship there. These guys seemd to take a particular dislike to me and some of my colleagues, probably for the same reasons you had trouble. 
I worked in the engine room where a cool day was when it got below 100 degrees. I'd save a weeks worth of work socks and underware and place them on top of everything in the suitcase. When the customs opened it to search .....
Pretty gross but very effective.

Jock


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