# Chef.... why? its not worth it!



## gastronaut (Jun 7, 2000)

What ticks you off about being a chef? These days wages are getting lower... hours are increasing... Stress levels increasing... BUT profits are getting higher! All at the expense of a Chefs health. The industry has been in the shadows for too long. We need a global union and start taking strike action!!! Imagine... a Global strike on new years eve? If you are going to become a Chef.. I say .. DONT


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

What would we all do?


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

It is what we do and anyone should know that before they get into the business. It has been like this for years, not just now so I don't think this is some big suprise.


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## pooh (Mar 13, 2001)

The "Celeb" trend around chefs (T.V., etc.) distorts the reality of "normal" chefs working in "normal" environments, does it not?


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

I consider myself lucky to get paid at all to do something I love. It's not about being rich. It's not about getting away with working the least hours possible. It's about creativity and making people happy.

Viva la chef!

~~Shimmer~~


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Is it true that in France, chefs are treated like American football stars? Teachers there are highly respected, too.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

No it is not about getting rich but the pay is pathetic. I don"t think going to cul school and killing yourself for years on end for 13 or 14 dollars an hour is anywhere near getting rich.


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## markdchef (Jan 26, 2001)

I thoroughly enjoy being a personal chef. Make my own hours ( 4 hour days ), choose my clients, create dishes, get real feedback,
make a real living, work in several different kitchens, network with other personal chefs. If anyone wants to find out how to become a successful personal chef then email me: [email protected]

The long hours in the restaurant and the relatively low pay does not appeal to me.
My hats off to all of you restaurant chefs, because I know you work hard!


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## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

kokopuffs: It must be nice to be a teacher in France if what you say is true!


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## davewarne (Feb 4, 2001)

The real test........

All you chefs out there with a lifetime of experience.........

Would you do it all again?

I think I would. But I'd be a little reluctant to advise a young person that it's a wonderful life.

David


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

In my opinion, being a chef *is* a wonderful life! It just depends on whether or not it's the life for you. We see the whole spectrum of humanity in the people we work with, from the dregs to the very best. We can run through the entire gamut of human emotion in a single shift. We can, by merely cooking a simple preparation, make someones night. And the next day, we go to work and everything is different. It's like living a brand new life every time you wake up. Of course, it's not always going to be good, but then whose job is? As far as the pay is concerned, as long as I have enough money to get by, I'm satisfied. I decided to make this my career because it's what makes me happy; I'd have stayed on track to be a lawyer (my first career choice) if I money was my priority.


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## palmier (Oct 17, 2000)

Why wait till New Years.....lets strike on Mothers Day!


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Thanks alot Palmier....Mom's are special people that deserve the best you have in you....

If money is an issue where you are at, or time, or conditions...there are many other venues you can pursue.

[ April 22, 2001: Message edited by: shroomgirl ]


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I don't think anyone here is trying to discourage you, Afra, only to discuss differing individual viewpoints about compensation for the job. I was in foodservice for 25 years, 16 of them as either executive chef or a comparable level, before switching venues. Some jobs paid what, at face value, looked like a good salary with benefits. However, the number of days per week and hours per day I was required to work averaged out to be BELOW minimum wage. 
There is also quite a bit of sexual discrimination in foodservice regarding pay. An example-I was hired as one of 2 assistant executive pastry chefs for a 5 diamond hotel (which will remain namless). We served 5 restaurants, a night club, banquets facilities for 2,500 guests and 750 rooms. At that point, I had 12 years of experience in fine dining and hotel food service. I second in command of 14 pastry cooks and bakers over 3 daily 8 hour shifts. Within 2 months of hiring me, they hired the 2nd asst. PC, straight form the CIA, with no working experience other than a 3 month internship for $4,000 more per year than me. If the 3rd shift baker did not show up, it was me that got the call to come in at 1AM, not the new kid, because everyone knew he couldn't organize himself out of a paper bag. 
The reality of food service is: 1-expect to work long hours every day of every week. 2-all of those hours are spent on your feet and often lifting and carrying heavy or awkward loads. 3-if your are female, expect $.68 for every $1 your male collegues receive. 4-benefits packages come only with larger chains and hotels; most smaller, fine dining operations do not offer any insurance benefits. 5-Culinary school graduates can expect $12.10 an hour at the finest restaurants in NYC-but expect to work at least a 60 hour week, more often 80-90, cutting that pay roughly in half. That's salaried pay, meaning you do NOT receive time-and-a-half for overtime. If you work 80 hours per week at $12.10/hour there is absolutely no way to live in Manhattan where studio (read one room) apt. rentals start at $2,500 per month (usually in poor neighborhoods). 

That being said, if I had it to do over again, I think I would take a different track. However, I am proud of my work experience and knowledge that serves me well in my current vocation. Just be very careful (meaning do your research) about what you want-you just might get it.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Afra, unfortunately, passion and earning potential do not always go hand in hand unless your passion is corporate finance or plastic surgery. I don't think any of us is in it for the money, which doesn't mean that you can't EVENTUALLY earn a half decent living. I don't think that it is responsible for anyone, especially your teachers to tell you that you'll be making much money because that's just not the reality. I think a very small percentage of those who enter the culinary world can make the big bucks if they have a good business sense, strong work ethics and the right contacts. Work hard and you'll get there too!


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Foodnfoto: that was a great post. Thanks for that information, it was very useful. It reinforces my own belief that restaurant experience is crucial to one's training but should be used as a stepping stone for a more lucrative career. At least, that's what my objective is, hence my interest in catering.


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## gastronaut (Jun 7, 2000)

Ive been out of my apprenticeship for 17 years or so. I have loved the industry esp during the 80's where everyone was dining out courtesy of the businesses. Head Chefs in that time were earning twice what i am now. This may not be global. Here in Australia it seems to be that the staff are descreasing and profits expand. Dont get me wrong i love the food industry.
Kitchenhands can earn more than a qualified chef here.... Is there any Aussies here that agree with this? 
Cooking has been with my family for generations with my great grand father, grandfather, grandmother, father and 2 brothers, one sister and 2 cousins chefs. The younger generation of chefs seem to agree with me on the low pay stuff. My parents and grand parents made great livings out of the industry.


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

Foodnfoto-

By saying you would take a different track, do you mean a different career or a different direction within this field? Which direction would have been better for you?

... 

I'm still deciding if all of this is for me. I sure like to cook, I really do. But I've been doing it full-time for a week and it is TOUGH. I'm learning a lot, but what Greg said about going through every single emotion every single day is true. Sometimes when I get home I am so tired and have felt so many things- frustration, anger, "woops!", happiness, laughter, worn-out, exhilarated, etc, etc, that I just sit and cry for a few minutes and let it all out. Especially since the last thing I do every night before going home is clean the flat-top grill, and burn at least two fingers....

So I don't have answers if its worth it or not. I think that is a decision we all have to make, and I'm still deciding.

~~Shimmer~~


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Shimmer, if I could send you an electronic hug, I would! Don't despair! THings will get easier very quickly. I was in your shoes just 2 months ago and believe me, I don't feel the exhaustion that I felt then. 

What I can tell you is that it's sometimes hard to reconcile your passion for food with the gruelling and somewhat repetitive work of a professional kitchen. But at this stage, do it for learning. I sometimes get depressed at work because I forget that this (garde manger) is not what I'll be doing for the rest of my life. I have to remind myself that I'm here to learn, to pick up some skills that I will apply someday to my own business. You should try to focus on that too. If your passion is food, then let your passion lead the way; it doesn't have to be the restaurant kitchen, it might take you to the bake shop, to food writing, to catering. There are so many other venues that I don't even know about! Explore them and follow your heart!


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

I've been in this biz in one way or another for over 20 years, and I can't imagine doing anything else, beleive me I tried a couple of times. If food is in your blood, you've got no choice but to pursue this industry. 
As far as unions go, they scare me. I've seen what they've done to other industries, and I really don't want to see that happen to us. There is enough battling between FOH and BOH, between BOH and admin, without a union rep stirring it up for kicks and giggles. I would much rather negotiate my own package, and put a few bucks away than give those bucks to a union.
When it comes to pay, it's all relative. I've worked everywhere from big city places to some Mom & Pop kind of joints and it comes down to quality of life. To get that quality, I think you have to get out of the city. That $12.00 an hour goes an awfully long way in SW Michigan, and the job market around here is so good, you can probably get a lot more. But it still comes down to the passion. If you're in this biz to be the next Emeril, get out. If the food is in your soul, you can't.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Shimmer...It's ok to cry.

This buisness is about emotion.
I think the most creative people wear there emotions on there sleeve.It can make you vunarable,but thats ok to.
Anneke gives you very sound advice. Remember your learning and growing. try to stay focused on your goals.Like said before by Anneke,there are so many avenues you can take in the biz. Explore,experence and enjoy.

my best wishes for a clear head and a steady hand
cc


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## friedparsley (Apr 17, 2001)

I'm not in it for the money. Having said that, I make pretty good money being a chef. The best thing about being a chef is that sometimes I don't feel like I'm working, I'm just cooking. For example, I came into the restaurant a couple hours early and made my soups for the weekend.(shrimp bisque and carrot-ginger) I had the whole kitchen to myself and I just felt great. I truly enjoyed being there in the kitchen making soup, not one time today did I think of myself as being at work, instead I was just doing what I do. Then the other cooks arrived, next, the waitresses, and then the customers. This is my other favorite part of being a Chef. I love the challenge of getting the food out as quickly and as perfectly as I can. When your in the middle of a rush and all of your cooks are working together as a team, there isn't a better feeling in the world. Just thinking about it makes me want to go cook something.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I've been in this business for many, many years. I understand the passion, the creativity and love we all must have for it to remain actively cooking in this industry. 

If you read many of your comments it sounds as if many of you think it's a sin to want good money because you get a job you love in return. I find that sad and shocking!

Being a talented chef requires intelligence and physical endurance! We are not dumb thugs that couldn't acheive happiness and success in other fields. 

Yes, many kitchens are MUCH better then they used to be years ago. But why shouldn't we strive for better working schedules, pay and benifits. Unions are either loved or hated... . (Regardless of what you call your organization) unless the majority of people all strive for common life improving goals the owners will never be forced to respect their talent with pay and benifits appropreiate to the skill involved. 

The T.V. chefs have done ALOT to raise the awareness and knowledge of our customers. I think organizing is a good thing, I think we do that each time we actively partake in comunicating at professional cooking web site. We all reach out to each other for help and advice to better our situations why not work in unity to make working in a kitchen a better paid and respected field?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Lets talk money.....I make around $40,000. I've been looking alot lately at the jobs posted on the internet. It's very rare to see a pastry chef job list higher than $32,000. a year. Footnote makes a great point, you have to really look at how many hours you work. Many people are making below min. wage when the add up their hours. 

I'm a salaried employee, when I work over time they must by our state law pay me something for my time. When I'm on OT making that wedding cake or sweet table I'm getting paided less than $7.00 hr. I get to look across the room and watch everyone else in the whole building getting paid more money. I think to myself what if I got sick at that moment, who has the skill to step in and finish making this wedding cake? No one, yet at this moment I'm worth less then anyone else.


I live in a far out suburb of Chicago (1* hr. drive from the city). The further out you live the less expensive the houses are. The least expensive houses in the suburbs start at $150,000.. That will get you a small 3 bedroom ranch with one car garage that needs work! $40,000. dollars a year is not enough to pay the mortgage on a $150,000. house plus live... and god forbid have a family. 

Their are sites on the net that do wage comparisions. Where do our kitchen jobs rank?

Do bus drivers make more money???? In Chicago they sure do!

As you grow older what kind of job security do you have? I have none. I hope my body holds out and that my skills remain greater than the new kid entering the field. I don't mean I want a union forcing someone to keep me employeed but I don't want to be thrown out because I can't carry my 50 lb. bag of flour anymore either.

I can contribute to my own 401K and can purchase insurance thru my job. I have no other benifits. I think someone else definately could have negotiated a better deal for me! I think if wages were out in the open we'd all get better pay. 

Many of the people in this professionl are very young. Many leave in their twentys seeking out jobs that pay more and work less. How many people over 50 work in your kitchen? Have you really ever stopped to think about why they leave? Do you really see yourself growing old in a kitchen? 


You all think you'll grow old in your own kitchen. Do you know that the stats are like 3 out of 4 new businesses don't make it. Did you learn business management in the kitchen?
How much money will you have saved to open this business from your job that barely pays the rent now?

How can you all believe that this industry doesn't need improvement? How can you believe that you'll be the one who'll make the decent money?


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

Youch! Everywhere I've worked the highest paid people per hour were the servers. Next came the line cooks, then the hostesses, then the chefs. I always got a pretty good salary, but I have always tried to live far away from the cities. I also remeber what my first chef boss told me and it has always held true; "When you start counting how many hours a week you work, it's time to get another job." I have always held to that, and when I start counting hours, I have to take a real hard look at what I'm doing and where I'm at. I've moved a couple of times because of it. I find it a little tougher now to move because I have three kids, and I don't want to make them switch schools again. But if it gets bad enough, I will.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Camp Chef-I think your first chef-boss's advice is bogus. You do have to count number of hours you work when on salary. You should also, if bieing paid a salary, determine what percentage of your work is production and what % is administrative. The US dept of Labor is cracking down on businesses that exploit production workers by paying salaries without OT. Somehow, the foodservice industry excapes hard scrutiny, but I have been involved in a few cases that were investigated. Management was fined severely and back wages paid to these workers for overtime. I am wishing now that I knew these rules back when I worked those Hotel jobs where I adveraged 109 hours/week of solid production. I believe that Labor Dept. rules require salaried workers to spend at least 75% of their time doing administrative work. In addition, the admin./production ratio has to be constistent throughout the management of the organization. Once again, I beleive food service workers get little protection under these regs.


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## pastachef (Nov 19, 1999)

I make good money considering that I'm only a cook. I have a lot of responsibilities and have to provide a nutritious menu as well as an interesting one. I'm constantly looking for something new or better. I do a lot of dirty work too, but I feel so blessed in having a job that I love so much. So often on pay day I have forgotten that I have a check coming. I was just having fun


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

We don"t expect 40 hours a week at top dollar we prefer 75 hours a week at top dollar salary is a sham to not only not pay ot but to not even pay a livable hourly wage nobody should average 7 or 8 dollars an hour on salary that is pathetic.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I actually recieve a large check from a former employeer several months after I quit. I was salaried and never recieved any compensation for OT. Someone called me at home and asked me several questions about my former job and then a pay check showed up in the mail.

It took me along time to figure-out what it was about because I didn't understand the law. I do know it burned the bridge between me and them, somehow they thought I was the one who blew the whisle. Oh, well.


I can't believe how so many intelligent people can keep quite for sooo long. This guilt that "but I love my job" isn't a good reason to settle for poor wages and obscene hours. United we stand, divided we fall!


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

Here we are falling once again into the "we vs. they" mentality. What do I do if I'm the owner? Do I then ahve to pay myself extra $$ for "overtime"? Almost every job I've had has had in the job description hours will be as needed and will average 50-60 hours a week and may exceed that. None of us is so naive to come into a job in this industry and be shocked at the hours. I'm not against negotiating for the best pay you are worth, but to cry because your not making what someone in another industry is making is just whining. I'll say it again, if you're not getting paid what you're worth, go somewhere else. In our area, any half decent chef can get a job in less that a day, and the pay is pretty good. But if you don't like what you're doing, you will be obsessed with the number of hours and the "Woe is me" attitude and you will never be happy in your position. I'm ranting a bit, but I've been on both sides of this issue, as an owner and an employee, and I've found that money and hours are not usually the root of the problem. It's self respect, self confidence and a passion for the job.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

You know I really take offense to being called a whiner it is exactly that attitude that ruins this industry why do you think their is a shortage of help in this profession because of that attitude. One day you will see that nobody will wanna cook for a living move out of the dark ages.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

My problem with the restaurant industry is that it seems to be exempt from the kind of acceptable labor standands that are applied to every other production-based business in the US. Would you say to garment workers that get paid a $200 weekly salary for an 80 hour work week in dangerous and unsafe conditions "Thats the nature of the industry. If you don't like it find something else"? People are outraged at factory owners that exploit their workers that way. Well, what's the difference between garment production and food production? I don't see any. There are plenty of people who are passionate about sewing but labor laws don't allow them to be exploited (although lack of enforcement allows exploitation to happen, anyway.) Why should food service be exempt from such scrutiny? If you are a business owner, pay people a living wage for appropriate work and responsibility, then calculate your costs and affix retail price according to your costs. 
It's not quantum physics, my friends.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm with you footnfoto 100%! 

Once upon a time it used to be normal for the head chef to be a screaming, ranting even dangerous person. Now if the guys a screaming idiot no one stays and puts up with it.

As more of our workers are school taught instead of "from the school of hard knocks" I think they'll be changes. Hopefully we'll see ourselfs as professionals and expect to be treated as such.

I was an owner too, you should be paying yourself first. The cheapest price doesn't get the most business unless the food is good. The better your food the more you can ask for it.

P.S. Shoes now average around $100. a pair, Wake-up!


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## pastachef (Nov 19, 1999)

Wonderful posts. It definitely can be a dangerous job too. I have bruises all over from various things I have to do, as well as burn scars. I didn't realize that wages was a problem in this industry. I've been in the same job for ten years.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

This is a great topic,

I agree with you foodnfoto on your analogy of factory workers. I also agree with W.dbord on the statement about more educated chefs coming into the work field will slowly raise the bridge. As more and more people enter our industry with degrees and the like. I think it will be a benifit to us all, I also strongly believe there is no substitute for on the job experence.I find many people taking advantage of the abundent choices now availible in our industry,and less people coming to the kitchen to make careers.One of the most problematic issues is the fact that so many establishments do not offer benifites to there staff,thid can be a powerful deterent to someone considering a career in the private sector of our industry.You can graduate collage at 20 something and land a job in finaince,wall street,Tech,computors etc and be paid a fine salary with benifites with weekend and holidays off,with vacation pay,sick days and the like. You can graduate from culinary school and land a job with a fair salary,no benifites,vacation pay,sick days and you work almost every weekend and holiday.So whats the attraction to what we do? I think it all starts with "Passion" I sence of well being by performing a job (art form or craft)
That these people on the "other side" can't even begine to understand. I've been in the industry for over 20 years now and I have to say it is better then it once was. I to worked for a number of chefs who's idea of motivating there staff was to bully them around,It still happins today,but much less then before.I've been a salaried employee for most of my career and I get sick sometimes if I break down my salary into hours worked,But I am a trained proffessinal Chef. I know no other proffesion that I could change into that is outside of the food biz. I think my saving grace is that I have a wife with a heart of gold and I have met the most incredible people in this biz.

As foodnfoto said in her post...pay your employees a solid wage,get them benifits (split the cost) and then bury the cost into your bottom line. Just like every single other industry does

cc


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## cwk (Nov 24, 2000)

Afra,While it may be true about more money in larger cities the cost of living is in proportion to said areas.That being said I
would rather be happy just getting by than be well paid and misrable.Sometimes I just don't realize how lucky I am out here in the sticks.We do have well schooled chefs here (three of our own went to CIA) but the bottom line isn't money.I guess it's a matter of perspective.Bill


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Gosh Darn It, why in the world do we all keep saying the issue isn't money!!!!!!!? Of course it is, benifits are money, money buys time, money buys health now days too! 

We loose tons of great people who have bills and dreams for a family into other professions everyday. Yes, respect and loving your job is important but FIRST, FIRST comes pay (for so many reasons). 

Pay symbolizes your value both literally and figurately speaking to everyone in society.

Do you think we are the only group of people in a profession that happen to love their jobs? Don't you think tons of people love their jobs and get paid well for it too?! I'm not talking about getting rich type of figures, I'm talking about a decent average wage. The 22 year old driver who delivers linens to our club makes more money then I do at 40 (with years of experience).

Recently my spouse and I were considering a move to Denver from Chicago. Suprise Afra, housing in Denver is WAY, WAY more expensive in Denver then in Chicago! A small 3 bedroom, 1 bath home, run down and in desperate need of repairs in the suburbs of Denver START around $170,000.. They aren't in a reasonable liveable condition until you pay over $200,000. 

Everyone wants to talk about how they love their job....how come no one wants to talk about their real income and housing costs? 

Tell Afra and every other young person entering this field what they can expect to earn after 20 years in this field?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Although I'm not a chef, I live in Denver. Here, the cost of living is so high I that I plan to relocate. You don't get much for your money in this city. Go to any mexican restaurant and the portion of beans and rice is so tiny you'd think that those two items are worth their weight in gold. Tiny servings. You're lucky to get more than 6 small pieces of beef in chili verde.

There are cheaper, more worthwhile places to live than Denver. I've never experienced road rage to the extent that I have seen in this city. And, I've driven around Los Angeles for years; nothing compares to Denver. I'd opt for some other area to live, either another midwestern state or the deep south. Denver is just too yuppie and ill mannered for me. Not enough down home folk

  

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I've posted salary before guess it's not a big secret.....
personal cheffing $175 a day for 5 meals and 3 baked goods...(creme caramel, icebox cookies, strawbery shortcake....etc...)
Cost is salary. I get several weeks a year off when they are on vacation. 
Classes...depends but usually $300 for 2 1/2 including food...(usually about $70)
Consulting ($50 an hour)
The market is my brain child baby and I started it as a public service....when it became year round and a "full time job" I started taking a salary...still consider it a public service cus it does not equate to minimum wage...
Catering... a party for ten runs about $450 I clear about $325 for 10 hours.
Party for 250 I clear $2000 for 15-18 hours
Mushroom group is discounted cus I'm a member
so I'll cook for nominal amounts.
Rent in suburbia is $1200 a month for a townhome in St Louis
Food is fairly inexspensive
Schools are OK for public schools... not the best, but a whole lot better than Louisiana schools. 
I do better than most cus I spend my vacations/travel always on business. I have alot of exspenses that can be written off as afood business owner. I have three children that as head of the house I get great deductions from. I don't drive fancy cars...
So I could not make as much as I do and have a flexible schedule, creative control and
just do what I wanna do.
PS when I left Baton Rouge my choices were Berkley California, Madison Wisconsin or St. Louis....Berkley is too exspensive, Madison is too cold, and St. Louis just felt like home. 

No secret, just kinda weird telling the world what you make.


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## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

Afra,

I know you love to cook and learn about different foods which has lead you to question whether you would like a career in the food industry. Before you move, pay a hefty fee to another culinary ed program, I have to ask -- have you ever really worked in the industry? Have you spent all week on your feet running forward full tilt? If yes, and you still want to go through with it, then do so and enjoy. If not, I strngly urge you to go out and find a job where you will experience the adrenaline rush of being on the line during the dinner slam, and experience the monotony of peeling a mountain of shrimp.

Regarding financial concerns, there are many ways to be active within the food industry without being in the kitchen, check into those if you are concerened about hours worked to salary.

Most of us work because we love it -- not because we expect to become the next Emeril or Bobby Flay.

But most of all Afra, you have to follow your own heart strings and see where they may lead. You can ask questions and evaluate the responses given (remembering that sometimes this is a place where people vent when they are tired and frustrated). But the ultimate decision has to be yours.

I wish you the best of luck in whichever career path you may follow, I know it's hard to make that kind of commitment without knowing what is really in store. Whether you become a computer programmer with a rabid passion for cooking or if you can flame in the kitchen, dabble with computers and of course, chat with all your online friends here at cheftalk it is up to you -- you can achieve your dream!

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: lynne ]


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## cwk (Nov 24, 2000)

Afra,
It seems as though you have a plan that sounds good on paper.Chef and Computer specialist.Part time at each, keeping a back door open just incase...The problem I see is the classic "You can't serve two masters".I tried a long time ago and got more burn-out than I bargined for.If you wish,Cook,Cook,Cook.Save your money (if you can)and when you are in a position to get a day or two free (remember, you DO have a boyfriend) then look at a class in the information management area.I have noticed in my years that no matter what the economy does we will allways have a job as a cook.This can be a stepping stone to something more rewarding (I don't know what).
If it takes working at a low wage - so be it!
If it takes living in a crappy flat - so what!You only know where your heart want's to go.Good luck and keep on keeping on.
I wish you the best! Bill


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

Re: education and wages. Most agree that the trend toward hiring educated chefs is good for the industry. However I dont see it raising wages much. What happens when the cost of education is so that it is almost impossible for some to cover it when they are going to be making bubkis for years. After all even with the degree you need alot of practical experience.

In most professions you plan on the degree helping you get more pay so you can pay off the school loans.

Re: Cost of living and large vs. small cities--I am so glad to be in B'ham. It is the best kept secret in the US. We have most all the benefits of large cities( B'ham has 1 million people) with few of the downsides. No wonder it is constantly ranked in the top five cities to live in in the US--spending several years at #1.

If anyone is wanting to relocate and spare the expense and hassle of a mega-city but still want plenty of job oportunity and culture and fun, this is the place. 

There are also 2 culinary schools here.

However we are lacking one thing, Afra, your boyfriend.  

eeyore


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Hey, I was on the line for almost 18 years and a restaurant chef a good part of that time, working in a major hotel. I suggested having a compensation system for the line like the % system waiters work on. The idea got poo pooed. I was quickly approching burnout.

I took the California State test and went to work in an institutional kitchen for the State government. Right off the bat my probation pay was higher than 10yrs. with the last hotel I was at. Of course the medium is different but my Wustoff still feels great in my hand, and at higher wages,and 1/8 the stress plus normal hours? Hey, great alternative when you start to get older. I could feasibly do this job well into retirement years. I'm glad I did gourmet all those years, but hey, chefs out there, if you are approaching burnout- no need to get completely out of the kitchen, there is always an alternative medium.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

This is such a great input, chefjeanpaul!

You moved me with your quote:


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## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

DeBord,
Sometimes it really isn't about the money. I am a "part-time" chef. I only put in about 30 hours a week cooking. Big deal, right? The thing is, I do this AFTER working in a factory for 40-50 hours a week. I also am a husband and a daddy to two little girls. For my cooking efforts, I make 8.50 an hour. Not too bad for part time, but not great. The thing is, the money is like the icing on the cake. I have complete autonomy in the kitchen. If I ask for something, I get it. I set my own schedule, I help write new menus, I get to work with and teach young people who revere me as some farout kitchen God. (I'm not.) I cook. Not for the money...not for the owner....not for the notoriety....****, not even for the customer. I cook...for me. Just don't ask me to do it on Mother's Day.  
p.s Would I cook for free? Of course! I often have and will do so in the future.


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## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

Afra,
I noticed that you are going to get a job cooking soon. I wish you good luck. I hope one of two things happens: 1. You are absolutely horrified at how difficult an 8 hour full- tilt line jam can be and never think about being a chef ever again. OR!!!!! 2. The whole experience is so exhilerating for you that you will allow NOTHING to stand in your way of fulfilling your dreams. Let us know what happens. Chris


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## papa (Oct 5, 2001)

Dear Friends:

I have read your postings on this issue and I decided to add another point of view.

When I was growing up in Greece and after Chef Ypatia had died, my family always went to the same restaurant for lunch every Sunday and for dinner every Wednesday. Chef Apostolos, who was also the proprietor, and his staff were like extended family to us. Our table was always waiting for us although we never made a formal reservation. If we did not show up on one of our regular days, they knew that something bad had happened and the Chef took time to sit with us and ask us about what was going on in our lives. When I became a teenager, Apostolo's Restaurant was the place where I took my dates for dinner and the place where my college friends and I will share meals, experiences, poetry and argue over politics, love and life in general. In many ways, this restaurant was the place where wine and good food opened hearts and minds, and big part of who I am today was formed.

When my Mother was sick and visiting his restaurant was not an option for my parents anymore, the kind Chef would cook meals for my parents and have them delivered by a member of his staff at no additional cost.

I remember my first date with my wife in California. It was at Carno's, a restaurant in Newport Beach. We were so taken with our conversation and with each other that we spent four hours with a glass of wine before we finally ordered something to eat. I do not think that they made any money from us that evening. The waiter kept coming back with the same warm smile every forty five minutes or so asking us if we were ready to order only to get a request to come back later. By the time we ordered, it was so late that we only had a salad and a pasta dish each. I left that waiter a bigger tip than the whole bill was worth but most of all I never forgot that wonderful experience. Whenever my wife and I are in Southern California, we always eat at Carno's.

There is no such thing as an easy job. Few jobs or professions will give you the opportunity to influence people lives and give them some of their best lives memories the way yours does. In answering your question, I would like to say that YES it is worth it! You affect people's lives every day and in so many ways that you would not even imagine.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Papa.....

Leave it to you to express you opinions through passion.

for the reasons you just mentioned are the reasons I am a chef.
thanks for sharing that romantic and touching story
cc


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## devotay (May 14, 2001)

I once worked for a chef who said "I got into this business for the great money and the great hours. Boy did I get screwed." A grain of truth, I suppose, but I'm in it because I'm passionate about food, and I believe more what Charlie Palmer said: "I'm a chef. It's a simple, direct profession. I put the food on the plate, send it out to the guest, I see the results right away. On a busy Saturday night, when the juices are really flowing, I get to score a touchdown a minute. I know of no other profession that is so rewarding and so convivial."


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I feel to reach the top of any profession there is sacrifice, so after a point one would have to consider, 'what is the cost of where I would like to go?' I have seen executive chefs of large hotels sacrifice their families for their work. All of us have certain obligations in life and there needs to be a balance reached to fulfill all of these.

Let's face it if you have a family to care for(physically, emotionally,and spiritually) and other responsibilites that demand your attention chances are you won't be a Thomas Keller, or a Daniel Boulud, there just is not enough time in the day and the stress level would drop you before you're 50, if you try to cover all these bases.

I think it is important for an individual to do their very best at what they do, be it a chef, mechanic,ect... and not just for the paycheck, look if you don't enjoy what you do then life becomes very monotonous, but also for the love of the work. But, also one needs to work within the structure of their other responsibilities without sacrificing the true needs of others that they are responsible for. If that means adjusting ones career to accomodate other responsibilities that are necessary, be it monetary, more time with family, spiritual pursuits, ect... then a person should make that descision responsibly. There is more to life than just being a chef.

Bon Appetit'


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## pastachef (Nov 19, 1999)

I believe that cooking for a living, whether you are a professional chef or a mere cook in love with cooking, is a calling of sorts. I've read that a writer can't 'not write.' It's something they just can't stop doing and comes from the inner core of their being. The same goes for 'cheffin' . It definitely comes with many problems, hard work and tears, but we do what has to be done. By the way - Thanks to all of the new ideas and recipes I've learned from this site I got a second sizeable raise at work. THANKS FRIENDS!


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I agree Pastachef, there is a natural afinity for visualizing and imagining tastes and textures and being able to convert them into a finished product/work of art. My wife has that ability and she does not cook for a living, it's just a part of her as well as myself, and I do cook for a living and love every minute of my work. But in response to the issues involved, if one can't make ends meet, or the stress is too much, or they are sacrificing things they shouldn't be sacrificing then it is time to re-evaluate. That does not mean one would have to stop cooking even if one chooses to make some changes.


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## pastachef (Nov 19, 1999)

You are right, ChefJohnPaul. I'm sure that we all have to stop and re-evaluate and establish priorities in our lives over and over. I once met a young chef who gave up his profession because the hours that his job demanded was destroying his marriage. He went into food service as a purveyor.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

That's a good example of a lateral move. Use the knowledge that one has in a way to better fit their circumstances.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

> Originally posted by chefjohnpaul:
> [QB]
> Let's face it if you have a family to care for(physically, emotionally,and spiritually) and other responsibilites that demand your attention chances are you won't be a Thomas Keller, or a Daniel Boulud, there just is not enough time in the day and the stress level would drop you before you're 50, if you try to cover all these bases.
> 
> ...


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Balance is essential. Thanks Cape Chef. I feel though as, you mentioned, that it is important if you take on the responsibility of other peoples lives (wife, husband, children)that it would be selfish to give a career 100% to the neglect of those that you've committed yourself to care for and that are counting on you.

Looks like your family is happy with your priorities CapeChef, success to you.

(If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!)


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## chef david simpson (Sep 25, 2000)

Very well said my friends. Very well!!!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I agree with everything posted before me. So much more wisdom written then I will ever obtain.


I'm not sure why I'm so basic and hard core. I certainly love my profession but I also love my spouse and respect my-self. I fight for what's right...or at least what I believe to be right or best for all. I don't want to be taken advantage of, or be greedy either and take advantage of others. average, average would be nice.

Yes, I can understand your perspectives and I also dedicate my life to cooking because I love it etc.... that's why I'm still here and not driving a bus for more pay.

I just can't find the logic behind so much of the craziness that runs rampent through our business? I can't seem to understand why this profession has to be so different (I don't mean that in regards to the time of day we work)? I can think of improvements that could make our industry so much better for all of us the new and the old timers. 

Things must stay as they are? I don't understand why we don't strive to make things better for ourselfs and the next generation? There are some good jobs out there working for some great people but surely I can't be the only one who hasen't found that, are you all that happy with your situations? It seems as if we just chose to look out for our own welfare (I'm not preaching comunisism), neagociate your own deal. This is our burden to bear..........?

It leaves me sad. This is a profession I dearly love, but I see it as having so many problems that I can't recommend to young hopefuls to follow my path, I think I owe them a more responsible answer. I feel bad for not making it any better when leave then when I entered. come with a heart leave with a heart but don't touch anything........


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I agree Chef DeBord. I mean what other industry does the education have to be so high where the compensation is so low for the cook? I can not work more than a 40-50 hour set schedule week because of other obligations, so in this industry I really can't make decent money in the private sector, so I chose to go work for the State.

I was chef de cuisine in a major hotel fine dining establishment, I worked up the menus, put together the recipe packets for the cooks, went on TV to promote the establishment, spent hours at home developing the information, worked the saucier position on the line, forwent breaks,and got certified in the process. I was not on salary because I needed a set schedule, but worked my tail off in every other way for 10 years and when I left I was making $14.50 an hour. Tell me another line of work that demands so much with so little monetary compensation. I'm not bitter, I received a tremendous education and loved satisfying people with the product of my two hands and that of the crew. I really started to feel though that cooks are exploited, and that is what leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth, look, a journeyman carpenter makes $30 per hour in this market, the cook should be making at least $18 - $20. That is what the State pays, with 1/8 the stress, normal hours, and plenty of time to cook for friends or do a little something on the side. So I try to be realistic, I tell young culinarians that would also like to have some normalcy in their lives to get as good of a culinary education as they can, either working, school or both, then check their food related options. Go in with your eyes open , know what you're in for, make responsible decisions, and if you don't like your situation do something about it.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

W.debord

That was a heart felt post.
Very honest.I wish I had the answers to why we are paid the way we are,But knowing there are people like you and others that truley give a **** ,is just one more reason for me to keep at it and try to raise the bar for our next generation.Like you said,come in with a heart and leave with a heart but touch nothing!!That is the only part I disagree with...I say touch all you can!!!
cc


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Teachers and social workers deserve more too.

Athletes and actors deserve way less.(IMHO)


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I love sports but atheletes deserve ALOT LESS! They should make good money but goodness they're salaries are ridiculous.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

It's good to read someone finally understanding my points/issues. I know in Chicagoland it's been unions that have held strong, that force decent wages and hours. At the same time I understand how bad unions can be for both the members and the employeers. Yet I tend to think that's what makes the Chicago area more balanced econonicly over the ups and downs of the markets over the years. I don't want unions! Yet I wish we magicly held together as a group and stood up to all the owners making huge profits from our work and said "we count, we have skills, we have schooling, we have talent, we are worth a decent rate! We deserve to have a life outside of work to be a balanced person too!". Why can't they have more staff, why must we work 60 plus hours a week? 

Yes, I understand the plight of the small restaurant owners. But if the cost of dinning went up at big profitable places then they could also to cover the cost of paying people reasonable wages.

The pay structure in our society seems so out of balance. I don't see why we differ from those atheletes. We have god given talent too, why isn't it worth much? We entertain people too. People need to eat more then they need to watch someone else play a sport. 

I think we get what we ask for. And we've gotten it. 

Meaning we haven't asked for anything. I wish I could say "we haven't asked for anything YET".


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Cape chef I'm trying to touch, to help, to make things better. It's the words that others type and the behavior I see in my co-workers that give me the impresion I shouldn't touch...just leave things alone, they never change they don't even believe things can change...........this is our burden to bear, I should be happy I have a career I love and not want any more from it.....re-read the words posted by many.

if the kitchens too hot then get out...why not install air conditioning? office workers deserve it.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Toque's off, to Momoreg! Atheletes and actors IMHO are poor role models for today's kids. The role models should be teachers and chefs!


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

The answer that I kept getting when pushing for higher wages is that there is only so much people will pay for food. Well, I said why not add 50 cents on to each plate, if people will pay $14.25 for something surely they will pay $14.75 for something, and send that extra 50 cents perplate back to the kitchen. Simple enough, eh? 

Well, you should have seen how fast that got skirted and then some execs basically said if you're not happy, leave. It's going to take a lot to turn this foodservice ship, a whole lot. And we're losing talent to other professions because of the nature of how things are.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I agree with chefjohnpaul and w.deboard I am looking at leaving cooking in 2 years it is simply outrageous the treatment we get. I can make way better money and benefits and have a life doing something else I love cooking dearly but it is never goung to change because it is pure and simple greed by owners. They think that all the star eyed kids coming out of culinary school are going to put up with the nonsense that we older guys have I think they are sadly mistaken. Things are very different in this day and age kids know they can go make out like a bandit doing other things they are very money driven how long do you think they will stay making 8 or ten dollars an hour 1 or 2 years? The National Restaurant Association has been warning people for a few years what is going to happen with shortage of labor nobody wanted to listen I think there will come a time in the near future when the house of cards is going to fall down.Another thing is everybody I have ever worked for has become very wealthy owning restaurants I think if you can afford to own 4 or 7 or 10 restaurants 4 cars a huge house and go on safari"s to africa every year you can afford to pay your employees a good salary I'm am really tired of hearing the poverty cry in this industry cause it is a bunch of BS plain and simple.


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## daveb (May 1, 2001)

I'm an It consultant, but I love to cook. I am seriously amazed at the pay rates quoted here. Considering that a mediocre IT consultant can bill $60 - $75 an hour here in New York, I can't see how anyone could consider food service as a career.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

For many of us,this is all we know!!!
It is not easy in any respect of the buisness.

One of the reasons so many of us get involved in the hospitality industry is because of our creativity and passion. I can see why people would say Hey I'll get a job in a factory and make more than a cook.Tell me,What kind of passion and feedback do you get in a factoty?Or selling retail,or nooking a burger at MC D? Not much! With the unemployment rate as low as it is i believe cooks and chefs have a Better chance to land a good job.I ask you,,Why are so many people so interested in our buisness,TV Chefs,culinary mags,cook books even this board.People come hear to learn and network and brainstorm. If it wasn't for us "Chefs"
What would you all do.I am not a sinic I am a optimist. The glass is half full for me not the other way around. I feel that confidence and high self esteem is needed in this biz.There is always a solution to a problem. Communication is the first and most important step in getting your managers/owners to listen.Write things down,practice a meeting in your head,always come across positve,put the ball in there court.If you *honestly*Feel you are doing your best and you have the best interest of your work place and yourself in mind then you may be suprised. If you feel that it is a hopeless case,then get out.Just make sure not to burn any bridges.I jave such a sence of pride and love for what I do I could not imagine doing anything else.For me..The good far outways the bad.With that said this buisness is not for everybody,But what buisness is.
cc


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Unfortunately, in America the thrust is toward the research for technical innovation and not artistic/culinary advancement. Money just isn't in the arts; and, Americans wonder why they're considered heathens by Europeans.

That sentiment was echoed by Oscar Wilde upon his visit to America near the turn of the century.

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Another thing to be considered is what the establishment is trying to accomplish and what level you are working at. If you are working at level 9 out of 10 and the establishment feels they can turn a profit and be satisfied at level 6 or 7, then they might pay somebody less who may not be working at as high a level. One day except in the finest of establishments or in chef/owner type of establishments they will have everything prepacked and have Reeses monkeys behind the line, it's scary. Thank you TGI FRIDAYS!


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I would like to add one more thing in reply to cape chefs thought. I agree with the passion and artistry, ect... But if one is forced to work in the type of an establishment, for economic reasons, that stifles the creativity, or exploits the talent, then what satisfaction is there in this? I believe one becomes another starving frustrated artist, if you are fortunate enough to pay your dues and land a great gig then excellent, but it does not always work out that way legistically. Sometimes you have to move on to keep the passion from burning out completely.

I worked with a fine pastry chef, who was Gary Danko's pastry chef for some time, who got completely out before she started to hate it. I think everybody has a different make up and set of circumstances, and if you have to move on so as not to let the love of the art turn into a drudgery or becoming bitter, then move on. You cna still love it regardless if you do it for a living or not.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Welp, guess it's time to throw in my 2 cents....you can learn cost control and how to use inventory forms etc. at chain restaurants. You can play with food and have creative fun in other "daily menu changing restaurants".....There is a growing demand for chefs and small farmers (aka clean organic foods)...I've been asked to be on the govenor's ag advisory council because the farmer/chef connection I've fostered and nurtured is one of the only ways our small family farmers can make a living and stay in business. Technology sure, they've had years and loads of $$ to invest in tradeshows, conventions, lobbiests....what it comes down to it that there are folks willing to put $$ in purchasing foods that have flavor, texture, varieties other than the standards in the average grocery stores.
The wave is coming through I see it more and more.....
Back to the subject of money in the industry. If your creative and trust yourself
there is good money to be made in the food industry....actually cooking, I've posted before and will not bore you.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Shroom, do you think market has anything to do with it? And would you have to get out of the large corporate hotel/restaurant loop to find it? And I think the earlier question was, would you have to give up 'your life' to make the good money? In this market the only chefs I know making good money basically live at work. Can a chef make good money working a normal schedule (40-50 hour week)? I have not seen it here out side of where I am now - Institutional kitchens.

The average line cook, at least in this town, who puts his/her heart into the job, is highly skilled, and as trust worthy as can be makes crumbs. The only way to make the decent money is to give up a set schedule with a normal hour week. I think that is the problem, cooks are not making their weight of wages in comparison to their skills and to make better money their just seems to be too much to sacrifice, why shouldn't a cook be able to support their family with out having to work two or three grueling jobs?


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

OK I'll bore you, $25-50 an hour with no overhead....and you can deduct costs from your income tax. working during day hours.
Self-employed, sure so there are no "corporate perks" but I have flexible schedule, creative control, work at my own speed....play in great kitchens with beautiful views and top notch equipment.
When I teach, I make more like $75+ an hour.
Catering could be several hundred an hour...
Soooooo....that is sufficient for my needs.
If I choose to slow down I do, if I want more business I can drum it up fairly quickly....
I've cooked for $ for 6 years. Now that does not tell you my experience with cooking or food. But it does tell you if you want to cook and make a living it is possible to do it and not work 50-60 hours a week.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Why does everyone think that to make a good living by cooking, you have to work in a restaurant or hotel? There are a whole lot of careers out there that foster the creative cook and pay them well. I didn't start making any real money until I left the restaurant race. There is a great book, *Careers for Gourmets and Others Who Love Food* by Mary Donovan, which goes into detail about recipe developers, food marketing experts, food writers and editors, photographers, stylists, etc. etc.

The problem most chefs have in making the transition, from what I've seen, is that they are creative in their thinking about the food itself, but not creative in a marketing sense. It's hard for them to think about food outside the parameters of the restaurant. They need to think within the context of the consumer's needs and limitations---time, money, skill, experience, market availability, nutritional requirements, just to name a few.

I believe that the resturant industry is polarizing itself in the same way US socio-economics is. There is a concentration of high-end establishments with celebrity chefs, "food as art" and high ticket prices that cater to the richest 1% of the population. Then there is the bulk of TGI Fridays, McD, Sizzlers etc. that cater to the greater hoard. What's dying is the good quality, fresh food, chef-owner, slow-food type dining that is the middle class of food service. This nuts and bolts driver of the industry is being replaced by HMR (home meal replacement) business in grocery stores and Boston Market.

As long as the motivation of young chefs is to be the next Bobby Flay (don't you just want to make him to earn that last name?) this polarization will continue.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Unforunately many creative people are not business people. Although I've personally had other working experiences outside of the kitchen running a business I know that I can not personally run a business and be the creative force with-in the business at the same time....there's alot of hats to be worn and not enough time in the day to be skilled at many tasks. Entering self-employement isn't a good move for most people, few have the knowledge and skills necessary. If it was easy then the percent of businesses that fail before one year of business wouldn't be as staggeringly high as it is.


We all can't be private chefs either....some people need to be the "worker ants" so to speak. So a mass exitus isn't a good idea. Also the market is only so big in some areas of our field like food writers, stylists etc... .


The glass is half full Cape Chef but at the same time their's no denieing the glass is half empty too. I'd love to fix whatever could be fixed! Let's work on it here?

As a side note: I have talked to managers through out my career. I've yet to meet one that didn't look trapped and scared for their own jobs, people not strong enough to pretect them-selfs yet alone their staff. Many are sad, drug and or alchol dependent people.

NO, I'm not going to throw in the towel. Because we talk about what's wrong doesn't mean we should leave because we're unhappy. It's like counceling, you talk, share, learn etc...to become better people. What about becoming a better industry? Can't we apply any of the same principals?


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Kudos to you shroom girl! Great to know that someone is making it pay off without killing themselves. I didn't want to seem like a whiner, I love my work and love to cook, but, just really got burned out and disappointed with the hotel industry. Like I mentioned before and it has been said over and over by a lot of you chefs, there are many avenues to explore in foodservice.

Boy this has turned into quite a topic!

Does anyone think Philly can pull off the series?


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## isaac (Jun 9, 2001)

three things ruin a chef:
1- drinking
2- drugs
3 stress

first, one shouldnt get into this buinsess for the money. the attitude counts. you must always understand that YOU are effecting someones likfe when you put that dish in the window for the serves to take out. when you are spending those crucial hours on your mise en place, you effect how it will taste. you need not to put out food just to get it out, it needs to go out with love. i amagine me being the customer. that changes everything.

the stress level is the most important thing. it will lead to drinking and drugs. i think though, if you have a possative outlet for the stress, you can combat the want and need to drink or do drugs. for me, the stress is wonderful. it drives me to go faster and harder. it makes we want to research for new ideas. it drives me so much.

i think, next to being a surgion, this is one of the most demanding jobs. we never get holidays off, your kids dont understand, and your wife has no clue most of the time about the stress. you have to deal with co workers problems and yoru constantly looking over your shoulder to make sure your mise en place will be done by servise time. your fighting the clock all the time. it seems that your feet are moving faster then your brain, your sweating in a 150 degree heat, with all the burners, ovens, ect on. your chef is yelling out you while the wait staff is bickering.

its wonderful and i wouldnt give it up for anything in the world!


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Isaac, how long have you been on the line?
It's the long term stress that can get to you if you don't have enough down time, recoup time. I was on the line for 17 years with not enough down time, you start to hate the rush after a while if you're juggling other things- after a while my feeling was-"give me a sixty cover night any time". It helps if your establishment is willing to provide you with enough help and not always cutting back and bare boning it. I had to exist with too many skeleton crew nights, everybody including the guest suffers.

When we had a full crew, and you were not trying to cover other peoples mis en place and you had somebody to help with the dish out then getting hit was a rush. When we got corporation orders to cut back on the labor it started to be a real drag.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Bah!

It can be such a drag sometimes. That's why I've decided to never get back into the business as management of any kind. There's nothing more satisfying than sitting in staff while you are told time and time again that your food cost is 0.1% over.  Don't blame me blame sales! They're the one who sold a darn luncheon for 600 at $3.95 per head! All this is going on and they expect you to watch labor AND make sure the New Year's Eve midnight buffet goes off well... so, reduce overtime please!  

I'm sure many of you have had the same experience. Talk about pressure, Macaroni Grill has a running PNL! At any given time of the day or night you can pull up your PNL off MICROS and see where you are. If you're running a little high on one thing or another, you better be making "adjustments" to your staff. THAT'S pressure!

Kuan (very cynical right now)


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

ChefJohnpaul....

I do understand very well were you are coming from in regards to your reply to my post.Ecomomics plays the major roll in most of our decisions in regards to work.I have has some of the worst days in my life working in restaurants and hotels,and I have thought a number of times that I got to get the heck out of this mess.I also no that there is a tremendouse amount of talent out there that is stuck in the system and craves more freedom and creativity, I say to them to move on and try to follow your path you set for yourself,but with that said,to many people that is just not a option.Like I said before I am a optimist and believe in trying to work towards a better work envirement for chefs and cooks. hey, I will be the first to admit that this industry can be the most brutel,stressful,demanding and demening proffesion out there.I went into it for a couple reasons. 1 I grew up in my grandfathers bakery and 2 I was no honor student and I did all the things a teenager probably was not supposed to do,I had it laid on the table to me by my parents!!What the **** are you going to do with your life?
Well,25 years later I'm still here doing what "I" love to do
cc


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## mofo1 (Oct 15, 2000)

I've written about my past in other posts so I won't go into it again, but it is relevant to this post. After getting my "stuff" together, I've decided, at long last, to re-enter the world as a full-time chef. My cooking has never been better, I'm emotionally stable , and most importantly, I am mentally prepared. For thirteen years, I've dulled my senses working in a factory and coasting through life. In that time, I've grown up, gotten married, had two beautiful daughters, have a nice home, etc., etc. The American dream right? Wrong!!! I love my family, but could never really "find my way" until I went back to cooking part-time. The first time a stepped up to that big Vulcan and slapped down a pan and lit the burner..... Oh man, I almost cried. I had almost forgotten how much I love it. Quite simply, it is who I am. I cook. For me. 1.5 yrs later, I am cooking like a mad-man 3-5 nights a week AFTER working at the factory all day and I love it more everyday. Recently, the owner of my place asked me to give him a list of my "demands" to be the full time chef. Although it scares me to death, I'm going to do it!! I'll keep you all posted.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Mofo, you've made my day! Glad to have you back. It's stories like yours and talking to my chef friends that are 100%, joyfully committed to what we do that keep me fired up. Ever hear the song "Millworker" by James Taylor? Listen to it after you leave the factory and you'll *really* know how lucky you (and we) are!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

It's very fortunate that today's society allows one to explore different professions. Glad to see that you "found yourself".


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

Okay, we've all laid our frustrations down. Pay is low. Respect is low. Expectations and demands are high.

Now lets start solving the problem. Getting out certainly doesn't promote change, it only allows what has always been to continue.

What can we do? More specifically, what can the people who have been in the profession longer do? What can new cooks do? How can we prepare ourselves, to demand more money/respect/humanity?

Like several have said, there is too much love of this area for people to walk away. But I agree that doesn't mean we should all be martyrs. So let's work toward a solution.

~~Shimmer~~


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The simple solution is to start one's own restaurant.


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I agree with Shimmer but it wont really change without a union hate to say it but the ownerships have had it their way for far too long.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Everyone can't own their own restaurant...don't you see that? We need to be a united group of people working toward bettering our lifes and our profession and when we have some stability that will make us better employees too for our owners.

Call it what you will, I'm for a union. Maybe living in a small town some of you don't see how it would effect your job. I live in Chicago where unions have GREATLY increased the quality of life for it's workers. Union workers here make as much as professionals in white collar careers. Granted there are abuses, silly petty rules, greedy union workers too....but maybe, maybe we could do it better then some, learning from their mistakes?

All I do know is we've all been individuals for too long, only carrying about myself today....not thinking about tommarrow. We aren't all brilliant, some of us are only average in neogociating our jobs instead we focus on the real work of the kitchen. But we never get anywhere alone fighting the "system" of the bottom line. Stength only comes in numbers.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I think everybody should be happy at their work and it should fit their lifestyle also, like a chef told me one time it's OK to complain, but then do something about it. It's sad if your stuck in a job and complaing for 20 years.

I made a move and am cooking in a private dining facility with hours, pay, and benefits that meet my needs and that of my family, my last hotel job did not provide me with what I needed, so it was a burden to bare instead of a joy. So I made a move and am happy and so is my family.

Shroom has a great thing going, so is happy.
Others needed to get back to the stress of the line because they thrived there. The point is a complaint should come with some feasible plan of action to eventually remedy the situation, so one is happy.

I would not be happy unless I had semi-daily access to my Wustof, so I found a kitchen job that fit my needs and allows me to hold some culinary classes, ect... on the side. I'm able to comfortably meet my other obligations, so I'm happy. Others feel the need to get out to be happy. It's not like they are traitors, I mean even if you are terrific at something but feel a real need for change for whatever the reason , one should modify their situation to maintain their sanity.


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

Well, after 16+ years as a chef and/or restaurant owner, I'm making the change. It seems this forum shows the reasons for the change and the reasons why I'm going where I'm going. I'm joining the foodsevice management team at a large (1200 residents)private retirement community. I'll be doing the 8-5 M-F thing for the first time in my life. So what do normal folks do on Saturdays anyway? 
I'm changing because I love food, and will continue to be in the biz, I get to work "normal hours", and I'm getting paid a lot with every benefit under the sun. I will however, be opening a catering business on the side so I can make some extra money for the kids' college fund, and to keep my skills up (and to show off, who am I kidding). But it's the quality of life that makes the move so appealing. I've spent many years in this industry, and now it's beginning to pay off.
So once again, I'll make the plea for all you frustrated cooks and chefs to get out of the big city, come to the small cities and make some real money.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

CampChef, you will quickly get used to having Saturday and Sundays off believe me, and you'll still be involved in food to boot.
Have fun! (You'll also get evenings off to go and dine, woohoo!)


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

Wow, going out to eat at someone else's place, I hadn't even thought of that! I'll have to look up a few ChefTalk folks and try out their places! I can't wait, thanks johnpaul.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I find it quite daunting that a restaurant owner or manager would't know anything about food let alone dictacting professional chefs what to do with it!

It's so sad!


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

David,I'm happy you got out of your cage for a couple days...Their are many hear at cheftalk that can relate to your position.

You bring up some good points, It is true that in our industry that thier really isn't much middle ground. Not one of my line cooks works only one job, You can't support a family on $10-$15 and hour.Also,like you said,your revenues have tripled because of your dedication and hours spent in your restaurant...How to balance? That's the question.I do not work 12-14 hours everyday,but I always work at least 10 and many times more. A 55 hour work week in our industry is just fine with me. I also have two wonderful daughters,although I am married and not a single parent like yourself,so I have less to think about when it comes to who will take care of my children when I am at work all day and night.

Do you commit or walk away? I can't answer that for you,unlike so many other industrys,when the clock strikes 5:00 we can not leave to go home to our love ones.

I also want to add though...That thier are many other avenues one can pursue to try and find balance. Chefjohnpaul comes to mind.

anyway,nice to have you with us and good luck
cc


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## lynne (Oct 6, 2001)

Wow -- haven't been on the board for a while -- a lot of reading to catch up on! While I agree that the profession as a whole needs major restructuring in the ways of wages/salaries and benefits -- there are other balances and decisions that we need to decide what is important- I had an employee making $18/hour, always broke -- kept telling me that I didn't understand how much it did to live (yes I did--I saw the checks - I know he brought home $50 less (hourly-union) biweekly than I did (salary-managemnt and many more hours on the job). But I could pay my rent because I wan't buying a new pair of $150 tennis shoes everytime I turned around.

Students -- need to have a realistic knowledge of the $$$ going into education and what the realistic wage for a job fresh out of culinary school is. They have seen the glamour reps of the industry and don't realize how few get that far. THey also need to know what other career options are out there where your finger can still be in the pie. They also need to evaluate if this is what I am spending and "x" will be loan payment -- what exactly can I accept as wages to live and do what I want. I think too many people have problems with that concept.

I felt like I "defaulted" by going and working for a Food Service Company because I was not going to be able to live, make school payments, etc, on what was the going rate when I graduated. Now that I am running my own business, I can appreciate the PNLs, Food Costing, etc I did there. For once, I am getting to see the whole picture -- and now it makes sense! And I'm glad I have that experience.

For a while I ended up on a much more managerial end -- hated it -- numbers, union, etc -- I only got to cook on days when someone called out sick - which was usually inventory or numbers day--so cooking under the gun because you know there were many other things not getting done. Got to the point that I hated cooking, even at home -- I knew then that something had to change. I would either give up my passion for dollars or keep my passion and take it to another direction. (there- the sortof one reason I fell into the B&B biz--I have always loved the notion of it and am a hostess at heart!)>

I've spent enough time out there doing what I wanted and creating my own menus specials, etc, that I was never going to be happy where I didn't have some kind of creative control.

Here - I design menus, create decadent breakfasts that end to bowl people over (cocktail parties, desserts, romantic surprises). I'm in control of the money and the staffing -- I have chosen not to give myself and well deserved and needed raise so I can have housekeeeping help and the laundry is sent out -- *null**but I now actually have a few minutes to call my own. *I find myself grabbing cookbooks off the shelf, spending way to much time in the gourmet markets, but, I love food again - it relaxes me (my own form of therapy (pounding cutlets is afterall a wonderful way to work off aggression!), I get instant gratification for my efforts, and once more I have my passion back! My glass is half full -- sometimes overflowing!

So you have to look for alternatives, learn to compromise -- and to set your priorities until the population at large realizes that there needs to be a middle ground between the boil in a bag chains and the artsy/stacked to the max restaurants that make the general "middle-class" population so nervous.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Reading Chef Chenelle's post made me recall my old Exec in that he had real problems with his oldest boy because he was never there for him. No job should work against the family, monetary is just part of the nurturing so kids need that attention. Hang in there Chef Chanelle, I'm sure the decision you make will benefit your family for the long run.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

That's it ChefJohnPaul our hard work and devotion to our industry does come at a price. Our sous chefs son was murdered last year, he fell into the gang life. My head chefs two oldest daughters have pulled run away stints for weeks, where they called the police in looking for them. 

Who here doesn't know an acholic, a drug dependent co-worker or a *** addict running around work?

Yes bad things happen in good peoples lives. But isn't there a more pronounced pattern of problems in families where the parents work excessive hours regardless of education or background? 

As I understand the United States has the longest work week of any of the industrialize nations in the world. I don't view that as something to be proud of. I think that means were scraficing other things in life for our jobs. Compromise is a good word.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I appreciate what you're saying. I was on TV on a monthly basis, wrote the menus and developed the recipes plus worked the line in the fine dining restaurant in the premier hotel in Sacramento, ect...
When I left the company I was making less than 30K per year. I'm glad I did all that because it was a passion thing and still is, and it helped me grow, but now I have more time for family and other vital obligations. It is clearer now as I look back at it. A very close friend told me once,'sometimes you have to slow down to speed up.' Everything comes with a price the question is, is that price one we can afford? Everybody's circumstance is different so each one must reflect differently.

Bon Appetit!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I feel the most important aspect of a salaried employee is to get full control of your situation. If you are hired to run a department, than by gosh, the employer should let you do your job. On the other hand if you don't take control and let your department run from up above you will never be happy.
The approach to your department should be one of ownership. If you treat your department like a business you will never have any production or money problems. This does require some work on your part though.
You need to know the financials of your dept. Without this information you will never be able to stand up for yourself to explain the reason you need more1232344. You need the tools. When you approach ownership 
and explain that you may require more help for the comming months, you must produce the grosses for each dept. their cogs, labor cost,etc, and if your on the low side you'll win. You will be shocked that some departments run a 28-38% labor cost and yours is 15. Someone is getting your 15% because they have done their homework. I'm to new to ramble, I could go on forever.
The reason we work is to get financial compensation to enjoy our home lives.Work to live, not live to work. This also does not mean you can't be very passionate about your work.Money is only money, if you are making 20,000. this year, set your goals to be at 60,in two years. know everything about your job, make sure everyone knows your goals,have fun and the zeros come very easy.
Jeff


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Calm down my friends..

May I say with all do respect that Puck,Emril and Julia should not be in the same catagory.Also,20 grand to 60 grand in two years? I don't think so. All three of the chefs or entertaners deserve to be respected for each of thier individual contributions to the culinary world. Mrs Childs opened the door for our female peers to enter and excell in culinary arts. Mr Puck was busy doing cutting edge cuisine in the states almost 20 years ago and Emeral has caught the attention of the American public. We don't have to agree with everything these chefs do...but they have helped in thier own way to bring attention to our field. It's up to us to decide what to do with the attention. I have learned over the years that to deflate someones ability to inflat ones own is only a cheap shot. I have my opinions of chefs and guess what,they have there opinions of me...but we are a union of people...together we can increase peoples ideas and opinions of chefs.Together we stand,devided we fall.

cc


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I agree with that, CC! I guess it's easier to say that these celebrities aren't real chefs, than to celebrate what they contribute to our trade.


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

I don't think that Tiss is belittling Julia, et al; I believe he is merely saying that they may have created an illusion in the eyes of the non-hospitality industry public of what the job of the average, everyday chef is like. Cheftalk is such a nice place because we manage to respect one another's opinions, even when we disagree. So, as I've said before, think before you type, re-read before you post and we'll all stay one big happy.  

P.S. Welcome back Tiss!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I'm with CC on this issue. It had to be said.

And let's remain a happy family, Greg!


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I agree,I think what Tiss was saying is that the disservice is not the caliber of these chefs, it's the image that the public has portrayed and which they are buying into. Pepin is my favorite, but, in the professional setting he probably isn't the calm, smiling, cater to Julia kind of chef. He probably ran his brigades with a sense of urgency and authority. I think the public is getting the wrong idea- 90% glamour, %10 hard work where as it's the other way around.

The general public thinks we make way more than most of us do. When I plopped my portfolio down in front of the director of an adult ed skill center for a teaching position, she imagined I was making twice what I was making. Her jaw dropped when she found out. The celebrity chef just adds to this mis-conception. They are very talented but now everybody thinks ALL chefs are celebrities making celebrity money.

Am I right Tiss?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Regardless on the previous posts (because I understand your point)...I don't understand the "poking" at celebrity chefs? Yes I see the humor in the unrealistic simplifications and the sometimes silly style of their entertainment. But over all no one was noticing us until the celebrity chefs brought attention to us. There were always publications listing the top restaurants but no one really cared about them but "foodies". Now I beleive their the bigger selling issues for the magazines because customers want to eat at the better places. This of course goes hand and hand with the fact more people are eating out....

But where would we be with-out them? Now it's cool to become a chef. Even though tons of young adults are being mis-lead about the realities of the kitchen (also by sooking schools), they will be the ones who really make changes in this industry. Because it's becoming a profession, in the states it's never been a profession. People looked at us as we were working at restaurants on our way to our real job. I've had customers ask me what I was working toward...what profession? as if the job I was doing was temp. 

Anyway old & wise your not talking about most kitchens, I've never seen one as progressive as you mention. The numbers are not shared, not obtainable for you to use. You must be kidding...thats management 101 "don't let people learn anything that they could use". Then you'd have to give them something in return and they'll just keep demanding more from you. Another lesson from class 101 never let them think their running their own department, that only leads to trouble. The less anyone knows, the less individualism happening the better and so it goes.......


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## holydiver (Aug 9, 2000)

I like the food channel generally and I do respect a lot of the celebrity CChefs however I do think the channel is a promotion machine. It glosses over things they are always profiling some born with a silver spooon in their mouth chef oh I went to the best schools then I took 5 years to travel the world and eat in all the best restaurants then I came back and opened up my own 300 hundred seat 5 star restaurant with gold chandeliers. Then they pan to their house it's something out of mtv cribs some palatial mansion like where do these people get all this money?.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

HOLY SMOKES!!! As I read down through some of these posts I had to remind myself I was in the US.People.People. Remember: work to live, not live to work. I know it's a cleche but boy.
Anneka,Fried Parsley, "I'm not in it for the money"??????? Just because you are passionate about what you do does not mean you should be compensated.****, we are all in it for the money, that how the bills get paid, and that's how we enjoy our life outside of work. Money has never been an issue with the group of foodies I run with.If we are low on funds we work on the side, if business is slow we generate revenue by sales blitz's.There is so muck money out there, you just have to find it.ps people will thank you for giving it to them.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Old&wise, please understand, I was on a consulting career path prior to this, both for the money and for respectability, and because I 'sort of' liked it. It's not that I don't like money (I do very much and Adam Smith is my friend) but I found that I was driven by something else much more powerful. When I say I'm not in it for money, let's just say that my earning potential will never be what it was as a consultant. I've come to terms with that. Don't misunderstand though, I plan to get every dime that I deserve and as much as I can possibly get. When I graduate, I plan to be a very valuable contributor to my job and my income had better reflect that. I'm not in it for charity and I don't think my posts ever suggested that. But if money was primarily what I wanted, I'd be doing something else...


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

When money first became a topic you and others chimmed in that it about more than money. Uh ha, your a student, that explains alot more than you realize. Even though you had a former professional life this is a cross over for your dreams. 

Your chasing a dream still....(I'm sorry I don't mean to offend you personally) After years of hard sweat and alot of cra* along the way you'll realize that even though your living your dream it doesn't make any sense that you had to scarafice so much to do it. No matter how much you love your work in time it's a job and you'll want the money and the respect you deserve for you efforts! That's so basic, it's respect and appreciation that money represents. It's grueling hard work with tons of scarafices attached that you and your family will pay. Its a very real mental and skill requiring job that in any other field this kind of work would pay double what any of us will ever make. 

In some respects I wish the people chasing their dreams would do that at home so others who are truely professionals wouldn't have to compete with people that are willing to work for less then us. This groups is like home caters taking money out of licensed works hands or illegals aliens. It drives down the pay because there people willing to work for less then it takes to live.


P.S. "I plan to get every dime I deserve" good luck no one else does, that's the point!


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Hmmm, I believe that right now I'm getting every dime I deserve, plus a little extra. I have a hard time believing I'm the only one. However, I'm sure that there are others in the industry who are not. I have no sympathy for them, however; it's their own personal choices and decisions that put them in that situation.

About management 101, the newer school of management is about communication and empowerment, not Machiavellian power games. If anybody ever finds themselves in that type of atmosphere, I suggest they get out as soon as possible.

Anneke, you've got the right attitude and pretty realistic expectations, I believe. If you go in believing that you can get paid your worth, you stand a much better chance of doing so. If you don't believe you can get paid what you're worth, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's all about karma...


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Chef Deboard makes a good point. If you are a fabulous chef that wows people with your culinary artistry, and they commend you on a fabulous meal that they are willing to pay handsomely for then the person that delivered it to their table makes twice as much an hour as you, eventually you begin to feel exploited.

Then on nights where you are cranking out the same frisee & confit salad to a hundred people then it becomes a pounding repitition
that is generating quite a bit of revenue that very little comes your way, and you don't even view it as a creative process at this point(a hundred frisee salads, a hundred cheeseburgers...).

I often spread a 5 course meal for family and friends with menus and the whole shabang and then sit eat and have a glass of wine with my guests, on an occasion like this all the compensation I need is their satisfied appetites and their warm friendship and the opportunity to share my passion with them. But when I'm on my feet busting it on the line for a business that is turning a profit, yeah, you bet I want compensation, $$$ for the caliber of work, fair hours that allows me to be with my family and have a life, and benefits that will allow me to have a certain peace of mind that my family is cared for, and it should be in conjunction with the $$$ the operation is bringing in. The bottom line is that it is a JOB, how ever much we love it, and jobs should care for our needs without sacrificing our lives.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Never!!


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## campchef (Jan 5, 2001)

I worked for a chain for seven months a few years back. The money was incredible, but the work was soul ******* . The only reason most people were woking there was to move up the ladder. No one cared about the guests, it was all "me, me, me". I'm kind of surprised I lasted seven months there, but I'm also surprised I took it in the first place. I now find a job I want, and then work on the money.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Oh, I agree Shroomgirl, I've turned down a number of things that may have been very lucrative because although they may not have been unethical but would have cut into my family and my ministry,(I believed I mentioned that I was a minister). It would be wrong to sell ones self out for $$$, how could you sleep at night?

But, one should not be exploited because they have a passion for something and would do it for 'free' so, 'let's see how little we can give em' and how much we can get out of em'!(I think the market does this in general because they can.) If one chooses to make less in order to contribute to an objective, hoorah! You are in control of that decision, it's not being forced upon you.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I agree with Chefjohnpaul....a job should take care of your needs...Nicko and I discussed income, hours, passion and the various jobs we've done and the reasoning behind the changes we've each made. I have alturistic needs that most times out weigh $$. I could make alot more than I do but it would not satisfy my need to see local market places open up for farmers....live is not static. I have at times chosen to do less satisfying work for $ but then alter the game plan and work toward other lucrative venues that meet my "mission statement" if you will. I've recently found that one of my aquaintances is earning alot of money doing a program for a group that is gouging the people we work to support....I've not talked to him directly about it, but was dismayed when I found out... there's not enough money for me to cross my conscience. How about it? Would you take an extremely lucrative fairly easy gig for a group that goes against what you've espoused?


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## gastronaut (Jun 7, 2000)

Thanks everyone for your replies.... very interesting reading )


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

as a post script, i saw an advertisement for employment with no less than: jamie oliver.

fehh - unpaid secondment working beneath a home economist who is preparing for a tv chef?

talk about glorification - hee - "here is a dish i prepared earlier".

And for what? "i worked for jamie oliver!". i'd rather be trying to showcase my own abilities and skills rather than propping someone who couldnt even name the poisson de jour and potage de jour in the establishment that they are the executive consulting chef.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

...and some clothes. Isn't he the _Naked Chef_?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Why is he call the naked chef? 

On the cover of his book he does wear clothes. Not really nice one but clothes none the less.


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## live_to_cook (Aug 23, 2000)

Before the TV masterminds worry over getting Jamie Oliver an assistant, they should get him a speech therapist.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I believe he is called the Naked Chef because his creations are bare bones, not very difficult and accessible to the average home cook. How does a guy like that get a TV show at 20 sumthin?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Great contacts!


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## msc (Dec 1, 2001)

Hi all you doubtful people out there.

I read all this about not reccomending our trade and such , but really don´t agree with any of the disconcrning things said .
I´ve been a chef nigh on 20 years and like all of you was well warned of the hours , wages and personal hardships involved .
Did it hold me back NO
As it didn´t you lot , this trade although both mentally and physically hard makes us either pessimists or optimists , it´s up to yourselves to change your daily grind for the better .
Me , i love my trade , love cooking , love the people i meet in the kitchens i´ve been in and the tight knit community being a chef opens .
I woulden´t change a thing , to be able to do something very creative everyday of my working life WOW.
Think of all those pen pushers who never get to feel the adrenelin pumping though thier viens when you´ve got a so many á la carte you think your about to go under , you survive because your a proffesional .........
Would you really give it up I DON´T THINK SO


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## slavegirl (Aug 7, 2001)

As a mostly outsider starting to see the inside, I'm just amazed that cooks don't make more.

I spent a couple hours yesterday, for fun, looking through all the pastry equipment through links I found in the spun sugar thread over in the pastry forum. I read up on how to make poured sugar, spun sugar, the colors, the molds, how you glue pieces together.

I looked at all the different kinds of chocolate, tools, techniques, temperatures, timing, and just couldn't believe that they don't make as much as so many others in the world with jobs that require skills. There is a LOT needed by cooks, be they pastry chefs or food chefs, whatever. Science, math, creativity, patience, knowledge, knowledge, knowlege. I am humbled by what the people on this board and in my restaurant can do. As some of you know, I am a full time web programmer as my day job. From there I go to the restaurant, where education and experience is my payment. I pay my own insurance in order to be there. I know a lot of things, and maybe from a standpoint of a non-programmer, I know a LOT of stuff. It's always different outside looking in. But I am simply AWED by what an experienced cook can do, and knows, and creates. The amount of effort that goes into what they do, vs. me sitting at a computer for eight hours is drastically different. Cooks use brain and body power. I just don't understand why they don't make more. What I mean is, I don't understand how the world came to be that this is not recognized and appreciated. Following your bliss is supposed to equal success. Follow your heart and the money will follow. But it doesn't. I just don't understand how this ocurred, you know?

Not a very helpful post, but I did want to state how amazing I think professionals are in this industry. It's baffling how somehow the working world is missing out on this, at the detriment of the chefs, who love it so much they just keep doing it anyway.

SlaveGirl
http://www.restaurantslave.com


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## chadwic (Jun 14, 2001)

here i have sat for about 45 minutes reading all this replies....i couldnt help but to be thankful i like many of you get paid whats seems to be poorly... right now wheni pick up the paper it seems all i read about is layoffs now if i had my choice between being laid off of getting paid $15 dollars an hour i would have to choose the 15 dollars...i know the stats but i still have to wonder...it seems many of you have years and years of experiance running restaurants for other people, so why dont you take the risk and open one up.. many of the reasons i hear are, the owner works 7 days a week he/she is always her, well its seems to me many of you do that already, second i hear i dont have enough money...well if you have been working for 10 years and put away or better yet invested $100, $75 or even $50 dollars a week you would be off to a great start..
i also dont understand these statements, "if i had to do it all over again i would choose a different path" or "my advise to young people it to getout while you still can" If it is that bad than why are you still in it?? and by saying get out while you still can, what does that do?? im sure you have all seen it. once one person in the kitchen had a negative attitude it spreads like wild fire and is almost impossible to stop!! so why say it?? 
AFRA if you enjoy cooking and kitchen life..do it..and instead of picking up a second job with computers i would suggest learning about investing and making your money work for you!!:chef:


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

SlaveGirl, following your bliss or your heart means happiness for your soul, not always your pocketbook. Unless, of course you equate how much you make in dollars with happiness. Personally, I would not trade the amount of fun we had on the line tonight for any amount of money.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

I must say I dissagree with the negative aspects of this thread .
And a global union with strikes ????? Give me a break ! We have an old saying in the culinary Biz , " IF YOU CANT TAKE THE HEAT THAN GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN " . I enjoy what I do and as far as I'm concerned if you are not happy in this Biz than you should take a hike ! Of course thats just my opinion.........................:chef: :bounce:


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## marzipan (Oct 19, 2001)

Maybe it's just my socialist tendancies and my strong belief in human rights, but I think the macho "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" attitudes are very detrimental to the profession.

Sure, we love the work. But loving what you do for a living does NOT negate your right to decent pay and safe working conditions.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Once again I will restate my opinion . . . .
There are so many forms of the food biz , small owner operated 
places , large fine dinning estabs , country clubs , hotels , catering,
private chefs , cruise ships , resorts , hospitals , schools , jails ,
and the list can go on for ever . I myself do not want to work with people in this biz who are whiners . If you do not like it then change professions and do not be detrimental to our jobs . We 
who do this for a living allready know the aspects of this work , and we have chosen to do somthing that we love . When I work with someone who is more concerned with thereselves than with the customer it just drives me nuts . This is a customer service biz so if you want a perfect world than open your own restaurant and
rule it under your ideas and philosophy . See how much money you make going Wa Wa Wa . Once again this is just my opinion................... But I realy do like what I do!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wambly (Jul 22, 2000)

"When I work with someone who is more concerned with thereselves than with the customer it just drives me nuts . "

Sounds like 99% of the owners and 50% of the managers I have worked with/for.

The hours with no pay was fine for a while. Didn't mind it at all when I was learning (not that I ever stopped) but when busboys make more per hour than the exec chef, things are just flat wrong.

Part of the problem I see is lack of immigration controls along with a lack of Federal action to inforce labor laws. The other part is greedy or just plain silly owners, may they be private or corporate.

I was asked to help get a kitchen in Wichita Kansas back on its feet. The owner had the place for 5 years and never turned a profit. First thing he cut was the cooks wages (but still spent over 10k a year on flowers and candle wax). It was impossible to get cooks for the money he offered. They could go push a broom in a factory for more money. As a side note, they were being offerd all of a dollar more an hour than I was making in 1976 as a line cook.

The last job I had in a 'regular' kitchen was as night sous responsible for two hotel outlets. First week of work I had two cooks. After that I was alone doing 50 to 75 covers a night of supposed fine dinning while the single line cook was dishing out bugers and fries to the grill. 
The stress and lack of compensation sent me packing.

I now work as a personal chef.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

A few of the reasons we do what we do.

10. Tired of waiting for that Supreme Court Appointment.
9. Get to act like a bigshot at family cookouts.
8. Babes really dig that greasy french fry smell.
7. Makes me think my life is longer than it is.
6. Everybody knows the REAL party is in the kitchen.
5. The warm, moist air around dish machine is good for asthma.
4. Don't see enough cockroaches at home.
3. Low pay and long hours make me think I'm in the Peace Corps.
2. My cats and dogs love me when I get home.
1. Like any other junkie, WE'RE HOOKED!


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

I wish you would explain what you mean by the first sentence of this statement. If you mean what I think you mean, then my initial reaction of pure rage is right. But now I've calmed down, and suggest you read the applicable parts of Tony Bourdain's books, regarding the origins and value of the people who work the line. 

As for the second sentence, amen.


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## cwk (Nov 24, 2000)

Why be a chef? I read some of the thread and I agree with most, 
But for me it's the fact that this is my life ,and while I don't have "Cheffy" days as much as we would like to I just can't seem to fit in anywhere else.I do well as I am and I don't have any worries about job security.I deal with people on a raw human level under stress and relief (If you work in this business long enough you know what I mean)and I can be myself.I have bad and good sides as do my co-workers and I feel at home in most kitchens.Why be a Chef?I really don't know but I don't mind the pay or the hours.I dont mind the fact that I'll never be a PBS wonder.I do what I do because I do.I'm currently working at a "Diner"Not an artsy-fartsy place and i love every minute of it;
that's where I grew up.I have held a lot of importiant positions 
and have learned a lot from them but for me I'm at home in a kitchen and if I hold a Chef position I take the ball and run with a smile.Crazy huh?
Bill
p.s.
I just love slammin' on the line...


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

Having spent the last 45 - 50 mins. reading all 11 pages of this thread I find it disheartening that so many people are unhappy w/ their situation yet don't seem to be doing anything about it. Not picking on anyone but a few posts really stuck out in my memories - "I only make around 40 grand a year and housing starts at about 175 grand for something decent" Try living in CA. where in my area those same fixer uppers start at 325 grand. While I agree, that alot of owners don't do as much for their employees as they could, alot of employees don't do all they can for their employers. In a business that eats up 3 out of every 4 new ones alot of these people lose everything to chase a dream that for many won't come true. 
I've been in this business for 26 yrs now and have seen alot of things. I have always given 110% to my employers because they sign my check. They give me the ability to pay my bills, to put food on my table etc. . Alot of people talk about change and what it will take to get there. I wonder though if you were making 60 grand would that be enough? In the competitive business that we are in just how high can you raise your prices? There will always be the family run business that is able to skirt the labor laws. And back to the owners don't they deserve to make as much return on their investment as they can? Why is that the owners are always the evil doers? I agree that for the most part hrs do stink, but they are alot better than they used to be. And as far as week-ends and holidays we're in the restaurant business and that is when people go out to eat. Chef JohnPaul I believe brought up a good point there are alot of other options in the food business other than being in the kitchen, take one of those positions get the heck out life is too short and money is not all that important. While I think it is Very important to share the realities of this business to anyone concedering this business I find it shameful that anyone would actually discourage someone form entering this great field. In what other job can you receive instant acknowledgement for a job well done. Where else can you bend the statis quo and challange yourself and your team to new heights and concepts.
We in the restaurant business are a different breed that even our spouses fail to understand at times. We love the heat and the pace that things come at us with. While some of us have just stayed because "It's all I know" most of us have something inside that pushes us ever forward to reach new goals and heights even if it is only in our small part of the world.
I love this business and wouldn't trade it for anything if for no other reason than the satisfaction I get for doing a job well done.


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## wambly (Jul 22, 2000)

Suzanne,

I wasn't inferring any one race, creed, color, or religion....
Mass migrations bring laborers willing to work for low wages. Illegeal immigrants will work for even less. When you scale up the pay for managment of those low wage earners, it doesn't get very high.

The labor laws part of it was refering to the same thing others have already written: the lack of compensation for overtime of salaried workers.


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## chadwic (Jun 14, 2001)

:bounce: Thank you chefboy and fodigger.....fot some reason i thought i was the only one who felt that way!!!


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Way to go folks keep this thread on the up side . Afra you go kick some butt and have fun doing it . The reality is there are so many aspects to this food biz that a person need only open there eyes and smell the options . Sometimes we see just that little picture of where we are at this moment but in the words of a great philosopher " do not look at the finger pointing to the sky or you will miss all that heavenly glory " . Remember we are the ones who can make the difference and it is up to us to establish a new age for culinary employees . Of course thats just my opinion...................:bounce: 
P.S. The philosopher was the late BRUCE LEE .


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

just my opinion:bounce:.......... 

Chefboy, your last post meant more than your previous "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" comment, that one puts us back in the stone age.

It isn't about keeping this thread on the upside or the downside. It's about exchange of ideas, it's about learning (learning where we've all been, where it needs to go TO BE BETTER). It also isn't about whining and getting people to run away from this field (I think something was mis-interpeted). If you've interpeted that, then we have MUCH more to learn about each other! You are my co-worker in this feild, we may not agree but it would be nice to at least understand each other. If we can't comunicate how can we make anything better? 

Let's not pull the wool over our eyes, after all I think we all agree on many issues.

"alot of owners don't do as much for their employees as they could, alot of employees don't do all they can for their employers". Is this the majority of employees, REALLY? I really haven't seen this at all! The vast majority of people I've worked with in the kitchen, gave everything they had to their jobs. If theirs a dead beat it's your job and responsiblity to fire them and not let those individuals drag everyone down. 


"I wonder if making 60 grand would be enough". We can be realistic workers, we aren't all gready but we have families and bills too. What would be wrong with an respectable wage? I can't think of any similar field that requires as much talent and hard work as we give, that doesn't pay QUITE abit more than the average chef/kitchen worker. Bus drivers make more, flag girls do, wait people do, factory workers do, stewarts make more..... 

"and back to the owners, don't they deserve to make as much return on their investment as they can". 
Of course they do! The difference is in other industrys they go over seas to buy cheap labor, you can't cook long distance so we get undersold by illegal works standing next to us. Honestly I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I want the owners to make tons of money that keep us in jobs. I just want to make enough to live as well as the bus driver.

"I agree for the most part the hours do stink". No one wants to quit, no one is really complaining about weekend and holidays thats basic necessity in this biz! But how about a 50 hour or UNDER work week or JUST having to pay for OT? Every other industry the people get time and 1/2 or ot, we get less then reg. pay on ot. WHY?


"Remember we are the ones who can make a difference and it's up to us to establish a new age for culinary employees", well said Chefboy. I'm not pointing a finger, I'm asking what are we doing to make a difference? 

I think I'm actively talking about issues trying to pursade my co-workers that we need to come out of the dark ages buy having more reasonable hours (so "even our spouse don't understand" mentality is erased, we need time to be with our non work familys too with-out being told "then quit if you don't like it"). The price far too many chefs pay for their job is lossing their family. 

How do we get the owners at our jobs to give the 110% you do Fodigger? Or do you think they already are? 

It isn't about whining, look at how many people do leave this field. Do you believe that it's healthy for the industry?


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

W. Debord ; now your talkin . The only people who can make a difference are us , right here and right now . Our industry has been dominated by bottom line owners & bottom line franchisers since the begginings of our industry , but we do not have to tolerate it . The first 12 years of my career were dominated by either one horse kitchens ( I was the Horse ) or european old school kitchens where the chef was GOD . I made a personal descision at the age of 30 to be true to my work but to be true to myself also . Quality of life is now # 1 for me and my employees . I live this philosophy and I teach it to all of my employees . Do you know how much teamwork this brings to the workplace ? 
My employees like to come to work and they take care of there jobs . I have raised the wages and given them a ownership in our department . I treat my staff like humans and adults and I expect the same in return . Somthing else I have recieved out of this , I am under budget , 0 theft , customer service is way up ,
employee turnover is nil & I like to go to work everyday . Also my phone never rings when I am at home . All of this by just giving people a fair income , treating them like people , and also having consistent scheduling so that people can plan and have a life . I hope that what I teach and what you all can teach catches on and changes this industry 1 kitchen at a time , of course thats just my opinion..................


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Bravo, Chefboy, Bravo!:chef:


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

I have a problem with the concept that 40 grand is not a fair wage. I believe the medium household wage in the US is about 28 grand now so that is 12 grand less. The starting wage for a bus driver in LA is 27,500. By the way what is a flag girl? 
I've also experianced that only about 20-25% of employees give 110% to their jobs , the rest are their to collect a paycheck that is not to say they are incompetant just that they don't give their all to their jobs. The 20-25% are usually interested in moving up the ladder and know that is how to get noticed.
Any owner who uses illegal workers is asking for trouble and I hope it finds them as the are fools and deserve to be caught.
If you accept a saleried position based on fifty hrs per week then that is what you work. If you work over that unless you are a supervisor at least 75% of the time then they have to pay you o/t based on the hrly wage your salery breaks down to at least here in CA. That's the law.
In as far as chefs losing their families I think they first need to look in the mirror. Far too many of them don't put the families first. They hang around work to have a beer w/ the crew they don't get out when the can not trusting their employees to properly put out those last meals themselves. Not making the days off count etc.... I think that it has far more to do w/ the indviduals management style than the industry as a whole employee management, time management etc. People chage careers all the time this is not exclusive to our industry. For alot of people this industry is a way to a means while they wait for their real vocation.
And while I think that we can all agree that we still have a way to go I can't help but borrow the slogan " We come a long way baby"


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

Good job Chefboy. Funny how things work when we show a little common sence and consideration for our employees. Good job. A you are right here is where the change starts. One place at a time.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

So what if the median wage in the US is 28k. That doesn't make 30k good, or 16k bad. FYI, the average wage as reported by the bureau of labor and statistics was $493/wk or $25,636/yr in October of 2001. 

40k doesn't buy you anything these days. Take 40k a year to your mortgage company and you might be able to buy a house in the boonies. Assuming you have a monthly debt of $100 and 5k in savings, this means you can afford a house worth $84,602. That's not much house. I used a mortgage calculator on the web to figure this. That really wouldn't be too bad if you were living in a smaller college town like Madison Wisconsin or Ames Iowa. But the cost of healthcare, for you, your spouse, your kids, (if you have any) can total upwards of $300/month. Simple liability insurance for one car at $800/yr and you're already at $1.2k/month in necessary expenses. If you buy a modest car you're looking at $150/month more. Since you take home 28,800 after taxes this leaves you with 1k/month for other expenses like gas, electric, telephone, food, groceries, daycare, diapers, sanitation, home repairs, cable TV, furniture, books, tools, auto maintenance, internet access... the list goes on. And then there's retirement.

I lived in a small college town where my wife was finishing her doctorate and there were exactly three chef positions in that town which paid 40k. Hardly any employer paid for more than half of their employees' healthcare costs and many who worked in restaurants had no benefits at all. Even subsidized plans received few takers. Half of $130 a month is still well over $600 a year.

People who work in this industry have so many familial problems because they're forced to work such long or weird hours. Whether this is for good money or no money doesn't matter. This will damage whatever relationship you have. There's nothing you can do if you have to spend all Christmas in the darn banquet kitchen firing brunch for 1000 people. You do it or your family goes hungry. Count yourself lucky if you see your extended family during the holidays and even luckier if they understand... many people don't.

I've started a personal crusade to never eat out or shop for anything on a holiday. Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year, 4th of July, and all the rest I've forgotten about because I've had to save a few pitiful labor dollars.

Kuan


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

In the Chicagoland suburbs you can not buy a condo for $84,000. unless your REALLY REALLY slumming. Kuan forgot to add child care into those monthly bills, I couldn't begin to pay for that! 

Illegal workers are the back bone of this service industry! They forge documents day in and day out. No one is being fooled when the employeer says 'they didn't know the person was illegal, they had papers', yeah right! It's sooooo wide spread it's becoming the norm. and citizens are becoming the minority. Really now, we all know what's going on......

I flag girl is the person who holds the stop and slow signs in construction sites to control the traffic. Construction flagers get paid over $20.00 per hour (yes it's seasonal (winters off and more pay then yearly workers) but they average $50,000. per year according to my construction manager husband who writes their checks). There are no road construction workers in Chicago that are paid less then $20.00 per hour and their salaries just go up from there. Because we are a Union city. Yes, unions slow somethings down (like conventions) but in the same respect it holds this town together. We are hardly hit buy recessions compared to other cities. Our housing prices just continue to climb. 

Yes, we get ot (the goverment had to step in not that many years ago and get that for us, before then NO ONE saw OT pay!), but honestly....PLEASE......can you really tell me it's fair to pay us less then our hourly rate when were pushing it way past 50 hours a week. When your really putting in the extra hours because things are busy (like during the holidays your missing), wouldn't it be nice it the owner apperciated us enough to pay us a respectable 1 1/2x pay? In IL they are required to pay a portion of reg. wages for ot not the whole amount your salary would break down into a per hour cost.

I'm sorry you see your workers giving so little fodigger. I think there must be a problem where your at. Even though I see people goof off now and then I think the majority of us really try to give everything to our job.


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

I agree with Chef DeBord. 

I got on with the State of Ca. after 17 years in hotel & restaurant fine dinning, why?

State:lead cook $18+ per hour, supervisor $20+ per hour, food manager $48k+ per year. Over time for all but food manager is double time and a half, or time and a half extra vacation that isn't taxed (you can earn an extra 3 weeks a year on top of your normal time earned) 

Most weekends off, evenings off. $6 per month co-pay on full HMO coverage for whole family, 2% per year retirement (if you put in 35 years you'll retire with 70% of your wage for the rest of your life) For every 100 meals served one cook and two food service workers are added onto the shift (i.e. 400 meals=4 cooks and 8 food service workers, banquet style preparation + cafeteria style service with lots of creative leeway) and once you pass probation it takes an act of congress to lose your job.

Where are you going to find this in private industry? Yes, there are jobs out there that pay off, in more than just financial ways, but you wish more private industry jobs would offer what State jobs do. Then again you don't have to turn a profit with the State, right?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Wow, and double wow! JP can I come work for you? While I think four cooks and eight foodservice workers might be a little excessive for only 400 people, I'd like to see our industry get a benefits package like the one provided by the state. It may be a little more expensive for employers but I think in the long run it will be good for the industry. Don't ask me how, I don't have a clue as to how this might be possible. Anyone have any ideas?

Kuan


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## katbalou (Nov 21, 2001)

i think if the commute wasn't so bad i'd apply to work with chefboy. in the northeast, where i live, i've never met a manager or owner that treated his/her employees like humans. i'm not sure if corporations or family owners were worse, they both have their quirks. the largest problem i've encountered is that they think you should have no life other than working for them.
i do believe in giving my 110% (and always have) but i would like some appreciation in return.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I know of at least one company which is like chefboy's. It's a catering kitchen where everything is made from scratch. Employees are left to their own devices and take total ownership of their party. Even if there may be more than one party calling for the same item there is no one person who preps the same item for multiple parties. Of course, if one person is willing to prep for the other then no big deal, and it works out quite well when that happens.

The pay is good, not great, but they make it up during the busy season by working 70 hours a week. There aren't many disgruntled employees. In fact, the core group of people who work there have been there at least 5 years. That's amazing for this industry. Just goes to show how much can be accomplished by treating your employees like humans.

Kuan


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## chefjohnpaul (Mar 9, 2000)

Just goes to show how much can be accomplished by treating your employees like humans.

Kuan [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that's the point. Look, it's a business but just because it is
it doesn't mean people should be exploited. Fair wages, fair time off, fair bennies..........


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Hey folks , thanks for the positive feedback on our philosophy .
Unfortunatly I do work for a major company of sorts, but you can make it happen anywhere if you want it bad enough . I was once in an interview asked by the three people who would decide my outcome what was the most important thing that was needed to being a good chef and what made a good chef ? Was it a great knowledge of cooking ? Was it secret recipes ? My response kinda blew them away but I told them that being a chef to me was like being the coach of a sporting team and sure you had to have the knowledge but you must also be able to lead by example . My resume showed I could walk the walk and this is what led me into another side of the food biz . It has to be teamwork and customer service that are our forefront . With these ingredients we can change this industry . Do not accept bad behavior and big egos . These are the things of the past .
When I go to work I want to have fun and do a good job ! I want my employees to feel the same way , why you ask ? Cause things get done better and the customer ends up happy . People realy care if you give them a chance . Of course there are bad apples everywhere but if the good outweighs the bad then its gonna have to be the right way . I do not tolerate the negetive attitudes anymore . Life is to short . Treat your employees as adults and expect the results to come back to you and your biz greatly . Treat your employees like children and guess what , they will act like children and you will have to be constantly monitoring them . I do not like Micro Managers , it just does not work ...... Of course thats just my opinion ........


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## bigbadpastry (Jun 17, 2013)

If it were easy, everyone would do it


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Um, this thread is 8-12years old


bigbadpastry said:


> If it were easy, everyone would do it


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## katbalou (Nov 21, 2001)

lol, just what I was thinking, Pete!


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## guts (Jun 22, 2011)

Old thread.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Noone is holding a gun to your head to stay in the business.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Um, one more time, until today, the most recent post on this thread was *December 13, 2001!*

I'm fairly certain that the original participants have long since moved on.


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

Well not all of us have Pete. I am pretty sure kuan is still around but then again he is a stubborn Raiders fan as I am.


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## bigbadpastry (Jun 17, 2013)

ok,ok, I'll move on/img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

chefboy2160 said:


> Well not all of us have Pete. I am pretty sure kuan is still around but then again he is a stubborn Raiders fan as I am.


Heh


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## dadodachef12 (Jun 11, 2013)

W.DeBord. You definitely have a very good argument!!!However, there must be a more diplomatic way to get our argument heard and listened to. Perhaps, submitting a petition to the authority in the industry or someone that can represent our voice. Or maybe we could have somebody to represent us in the house of representatives (just a silly idea). Another idea is going through the chefs association or WACS (World association of chefs). What do you think?

I am with you with your ideas and support your argument.


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