# Perfect Apple Pie



## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

I need techniques here, not so much recipes... Specifically, how do you prevent a soggy bottom? Also, how do you get a nice *soft*apple filling?

I experimented this weekend with Mutsu (sp?) apples. I sautéed them first with some ginger, vanilla bean and a very strong New-Zeland thyme honey. THe result is the tastiest pie I've ever had. However, I had the two aforementioned problems. I guess I should have sautéed them longer, but most apple pies don't call for sautéing them at all... What's the deal?


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## hubuk (Oct 8, 2001)

I suppose the best way to avoid a soggy bottom is to watch where you are sitting!

Sorry about that but I couldn't resist being childish.

To be serious. I was sent the recipe for Tarte Tatin yesterday which was for publication on my website. I plan having a go tomorrow as it sounds easy (I know ....) but the point is it might be worth you having a go as it is cooked upside down.

First you caramelise your apples in a frying pan and then you put the pastry on top and finish in the oven. There is a bit more to it than that but it does sound a great idea (not a new idea by any means though).

If you want the address for the recipe let me know.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Anneke I wish my wife was home because she makes the best Apple pie in the world!!! 

As to your apples "matsu" Are good,But better eaten out of hand. Being a New Englander I would highly recommend Cortland apples. Tart,sweet,firm and a good starch content. I don't think you need to saute your apples beforehand,Just peel,slice,season,add butter and pack them into a par backed crust,top with more crust and make a slit for the air to excape.

If you find that a little corn starch or flour is needed to help hold things together add alittle,But if you can find cortlands you should be fine. I do like a soft apple in my finished pie,But I also like a little texture as well.
cc


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Hi David,
I've made Tatin before and LOVE it. But I was aiming for the more traditional double crusted version here...
Good luck with your Tatin!
Oh, and I'll watch where I'm sitting from now on... 

CC, I like texture too but I find that they always come out to firm/dry. Even sautéed. Same with granny Smiths. I'll try with Cortlands next time. How long do you pre-bake your crust?

[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anneke ]


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Anneke, I pre bake the crust to a very soft golden brown,Really just to set the crust up.cc


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Wanna talk about two totally different techniques for apple pie? I never pre bake my crust for a double crusted pie, because the top never adheres well to the bottom that way, and I can't make the fluted edges uniform if only one of the crusts are soft.

I use granny smiths because they hold their shape well after sauteeing (mind you, I do watch them so that they are still al dente when they are cool).

Here is my secret for preventing soggy bottoms: When I slice the apples, I place them in a colander, and toss them in 10x sugar. Then let them drain for about 10 minutes. I cook them with a touch of butter, some brown and granulated sugar, cinnamon and cornstarch. A thick slurry really works better than dry coating the apples.

Cool the apples before filling the crust. 

Some ovens have lower bottom heat, which prevents the bottom crust from baking completely. If that's the case, I'd pre-bake the cust, then give the pie a crumb topping instead of a top crust.

I like this topic. There are so many ways to make the same thing.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Momoreg,
Do your apples give off enough liquid during the sautéeing process? I've often found that the harder apples didn't have enough liquid, other than that from the lemon juice... You didn't mention lemon; do you use any?

Also, is a glass dish better or worse for getting a properly baked bottom?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

When my wife came home and read my post about pre baking the crust she almost feel off her wagon LOL,Momoreg and my Jillybean are on the money,Anneke..Please excuse my "Incorrect Imformation"on pre baking the dough.Also as Momoreg states..she uses a wet slurry,I have never used a wet slurry when baking an apple pie...But I have learned something here today  I still say Cortlands are best   
cc


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

..Forgiven.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I made an apple pie this morning. The pie weighted about 9 pounds before baking. It’s one of those deep dish apple pie a present for my father, his birthday is tomorrow. 

I always use Cortland apples sugar and spices. The dough is from Baking With Julia. I never have trouble with soggy bottom even with normal size apple pie. I never pre bake the crust or cook the apples first. I bake at 425°F for 15 minutes then lower the temperature to 350°F. 

In Cookwise it is said to put some crumbs on top of a filling before putting the meringue. The same idea could be apply to apple pie. After all if yo add flour or tapioca to a filling why not cake or cookie crumbs. 

Sherry Corriher does say to bake the bottom crust, top crust and filling, she use Golden Delicious apples, and assembling just before serving gives crisp non soggy crust. 

In The Pie And Pastry Bible it is said to combine the apples with lemon juice, sugars, spice and salt. Toss to mix. Allow the apples to macerate at room temperature for a minimum of 30 minutes and a maximum of three hours. You then transfer the apples and their juices to a colander suspended over a bowl to capture the liquid. The mixture will release at least 1/2 cup of liquid. You then add cornstarch to the apples and add the liquid that you have heated to reduce to 1/3 cup.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

I think my oven was too low... maybe that's the ticket. I don't look at books when I bake pies. I guess I should have.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Brushing the inside of the crust with eggwash might help. There are as many opinions about apple pie as there are recipes for matzoh brei! Don't forget the vanilla ice cream!

Kuan


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Glass dishes are ideal, because you can see when the bottom crust is done. 

Draining off some of the liquid before sauteeing creates a tighter mixture, which slices more cleanly, and has less moisture to sog the crust. But if you like a goopier filling, then omit that step. That's just a personal preference. Lemon juice--yes, of course. That will heighten the flavors and keep the color bright.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

My 2 cents.... making a pie with "juicey" apples requires sauteing ahead of time!Because it's very hard to get your flour (thickener) correct, and if you don't put in enough flour you'll have apple soup en-croute and a bottom crust that will never crisp. I also saute a dry apples to give them moisture. By adding more butter and sugar to a dry apple you can get more binder/moisture. Or if I have really dry bad apples I add apple juice and thickened it in addition to the natural juices that should have been there.


Sauteing first gives me more control. I cut them thicker then when baking straight. Use butter to saute, add 50% white sugar and 50% brown sugar (to taste), cinnamon, nutmeg and a dash of allspice then off heat when their 'just' al dente (or less) I give it a small splash of vanilla. I set my apples into a strainer, where I drain off my juices and thicken them (in a pan) to my desired consistancy (with flour) and return that to the cooked apples. SO it is a slurry just like Momoreg. Let cool completely, before filling pie crust!

NO LEMON JUICE (I've never found a reason for it!)!!! You should be using tart baking apples.

As for my crust, I use egg wash to bind top crust to bottom. Place the pie on my turn table and trim with sissors and flute.A Slash on top crust is a must to release steam. Then I brush the top crust with my egg wash and sprinkle it with sugar (this gives a nice look to the finished crust). I put my assembled pie into my refrigerator for about 1/2 to 1 hour to completely chill the crust after rolling and filling. A warm crust droops when baked. 

Also when using pre-sauteed apples you can put more apples into your filling, since the shrinkage has already taken place. There will be less of an air pocket between your top crust and your filling too.

I prefer clear glass pie plates or those cheap thin foil pans. They cook your crust the best! 

I bake at 425 for 30 min. or so then turn down to 375 to finish the bake. Often I have to cover the top with foil for the last 10 min of baking. 

Big mistake people make is over baking.....(that's partly due to too juicey of apples that won't let your crust set, saute in advance so you can correct the moisture and sweetness).


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I had apple pie on my mind after seeing your post Anneke, so I made one today with my home grown apples.

Angry really likes this book, Professional baking By Wayne Glissen so I bought it based on her recommendation. Well, I made his pie dough today to experiment. I have to say, "My husband loved it". I have always made my dough with a combo of butter and shortening, his is all shortening...plus he has great info on the whys and problems with making apple pies (a good read for a baker).

His cure for a soggy crust is changing your dough to a "mealy" pie crust instead of a flakie one. It's not a big adjustment, just a little less moisture. He also talks about thickeners....well I'm done using flour, his recipe using cornstarch just retired my recipe.

I was rather supprised that he pre-cooks his apple filling too. I had never read that in a book before. He also sites thickening volume loss as 2 main reasons to pre-cook.

If you want to try his crust recipes I can post it.?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

A 'mealy' crust? I'm not sure I understand what that means...
I always make an all-butter crust because I prefer the flavour. If I were producing commercially, I probably wouldn't. For this last pie I made, I completely forgot to use a thickener, but ultimately it didn't matter because there was virtually no liquid to speak of. I polished off the last piece last night.
.....MMMmmmmmmmmmm Love that ginger-vanilla combo... I nuked it for a minute and it softened the apples right up.

I've never heard of anyone pre-cooking their apples until this year. I thought I was a bit kooky for thinking of doing it that way, but now it seems everybody's doing it. Have apples been getting harder over the years? What's going on?!?!


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Good point Wendy. pre cooking the apple to reduce the volume loss is a great idea. It will proove specially useful when making a deep dish apple pie.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Being a pastry chef you should know how to bake something as simple as a apple pie. But I have to admit I've had more failures over the years with this item then the most complicated desserts you can think of! One year my apples in my Thanksgiving pies turned out to have so much moisture in them that my thickener couldn't keep-up, I was so embarrassed I could have died! It was too late to fix the problem when I discovered it that year. But since that bad day I've made it my mission to never let that happen to me again.

So I've read and tried many recipes over the years to master this item (although it's always a work in progess). Just recently I bought Wayne Glissens book and he gives more detail then any other source I've found on this topic. 

So here's what I've learned from his book:

There are two type of pie doughs. Flaky, where you hardly rub your fat into your flour. Mealy where you blend in the fat until it's like course cornmeal. This makes a VERY SHORT crust, "the baked dough is less likely to absorb moisture from the filling and become soggy". Adding butter or not to your crust, is another topic (I've just change my mind after using his crust). He gives slightly different formulas for each.

What he writes about "The soggy bottom"...

1. Use mealy dough for bottom crusts and flaky for the top.
2. Use high heat, at least at the beginning of baking to set the crust. He uses 425 thru out the bake (I confirm keeping that temp. with my last pie was really successful).
3. Do not add hot fillings to unbaked crusts.
4. You can layer the bottom of the pie shell with cake crumbs.
5. Use dark metal pie tins which absorb more heat.

Here's what he says about the "old-Fashioned method" for apple pie fillings (which is using raw apples in your pie). "This method is commonly used for homemade apple pies and peach pies. However, it is not often used in food service operations because of it's disadvantages. First, the thickening of the juices is more difficult to control. Second, because raw fruit shrinks as it cooks, it is necessary to pile the fruit high in the shell. The fruit then shrinks, often leaving a large air space between the crust and the fruit, and the top crust becomes misshappen. The juices given off are more likely to boil over than when the filling is cooked and the juice thickened before filling the pie.
For these reasons, the cooked fruit method usually gives better results than the old fashioned method." (He also has some other interesting facts/notes but I've already talked too much about this topic....)

I'm so happy I finally read a source that confirms what I kept noticing. I haven't found any other published source that talks about the whys like this.


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## elsie (Feb 17, 2001)

W., That is the book we are using in Fundamentals of Baking (first semester baking class), and I have made that exact pie you are talking about (the old-fashioned method). It turned out well, both at home and at school, with the liquid nice and thick.
The biggest thing I learned was that our teacher told us that when the pie is ready, you should be able to hold the pie and gently tip it to the side -- if any juice comes out, it's not ready. The liquid was nice and thick, and the apples held their shape (Granny Smiths). We also did it with a streusel topping rather than a top crust. 

Anyway, it's good to know that a real, working professional has faith in the books I'm using in school! 

I have to make that crust tomorrow for mid-term practicals. 

Elsie


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I may have seen it mentioned in OTHER not-so-confusing bulletin board (I'm sure I'll get used to this new look) but the Pie and Pastry Bible by Rose Levy B. has a neat way of thickening the apple juices. she lets the apples sit with the sugar and collects the juices and then boils them down. I've tried it and it works well. The main thing it does is help reduce the amount of starch of whatever kind you're using.
The thing with the mealy crust is that you have to make two batches of dough, or remove half from the bowl while the fat is still in large pieces to save for the flaky crust, and rub the fat in further to get the mealy crust in the other half. Then you'd have to either weigh the two, or guess at the water. 
I use a hot oven, lots of bottom heat, and pyrex pans. I can see when the bottom crust is done. I also use half shortening and half butter and get good flakiness and flavor.


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## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

I would like to see the recipe!


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

The recipes for the crust or the filling Sandy?

Good points TheBighat. Momoreg said she uses that method (from the cake bible) for her apples. It's basicly the same thing as precooking, drain out your liquids and thickening them seperately (I'll have to try that next time!). The mealy dough vs flaky won't be a problem in a comercial kitchen. Just keep both in the freezer, pull out what you need....
Does Rose Levy use cornstarch to thicken? Glissen recommended a modified starch (I think) over using cornstarch but says its not something realily available, then use cornstarch.

Elsie I kind of disagree with your instructor or maybe something got lost in the conversation. As far as when to pull it out of the oven.... You pretty much have to let the crust call the play. When the bottom is done...because the top and the apples are done at about the same time. You'll have to over bake it for there not to be any liquid bubbling up when it's done or over thicken it.

If you tip your pie and you see no filling I personally think you've thickened your filling too much. It should move when tipped. Once the pie cools totally the filling sets and there isn't any loose juice. Maybe you should double check with your instuctor if you'll be tested on this??


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## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

:bounce: Both! I'm a complete idiot in the pie department. My mother-in-law gave me a recipe for a cold water crust, but I have not had a chance to try it. I'm just learning all this neat stuff.


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## elsie (Feb 17, 2001)

W., No, I'm certain that is what he said. He was very clear about it and demonstrated it to myself and some other classmates. The pie liquid when done was very thick and non-juicy (almost a store-bought consistency?), but I'm glad you made the point about the crust, though. Maybe he just meant that aside from the crust, if the juice is too runny, it's not done?? I know I have a tendency to definitely under-cook my crusts, and this pie could probably have been more done on the bottom. 

Elsie


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I have a recipe for *Apple Tourtière* that I learned to do at the ITHQ. Puff pastry and Cortland apples, cut into medium-sized cubes, are used in this dish. The apples are sautéed in unsalted butter with extra fine sugar and a vanilla pod until translucent.

Not in the original recipe, I add Calvados and flambée. Yum!

I let the apples cool down before making the pie.

For this particular recipe, I don't use a pie pan. I just lay down parchment paper on a baking sheet and form my tourtière in the middle.

The top of the tourtière is composed of three layers of dough. The recipe is in French and I'm a really bad translator. Would someone volunteer to translate through Private Messaging?

It's really :lips: !


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## hubuk (Oct 8, 2001)

I have been cooking most of my life but until this week had never attempted to make an apple dessert with pastry.

I was so pleased and impressed with the results I achieved that I made a second which we finished tonight (made them Tuesday and Thursday)!

It was so simple and the result looked so good - and the taste! WOW.

If you have ever struggled with this sort of dessert just try making this: Tarte Tatin.

I got the recipe last weekend from Chef Jos Wellman (alias Tallyrand on Hub-UK) and having met the great French chef Michel Roux this time last year whose signature dish it is, I was inspired to have a go.

I will surely do another one either tomorrow or Sunday.

If you want Jos' recipe it is at http://www.hub-uk.com/tallyrecip02/recipe0051.htm


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I just asked for leaf lard from the pig being used on Monday's Farmer/chef dinner....I really like the butter/fat combo for flavor and flakiness.
Leaf lard does not have a pork flavor to it at all.....amazingly a couple of the chefs I know that do alot of their own charcuterie scoff when I mention putting lard in pies.......
Anyone else do this? not the scoffing part but the lard/butter combo.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Boy Shroomgirl you always know about things I've never heard of....so then is this leaf lard unprocessed fat? Or does it look and use like crisco shortening? It must be processed for bakers to use it....what about impurities? Some people use the words lard and shortening interchangably, to the best of my knowledge it's two different fats....no?


Yes, I think all professionals agree with using butter and shortening both in their crusts. Sometimes all shortening is how you need to go though.... 
After trying this recipe I'd use the mealy bottom as written w/out butter and use my reg. flaky top thats close to 50/50 butter, shortening. I actually haven't ever used a all butter pie crust, it's moisture will your flakiness (I've never had the low liquid professional butters, I've always shared dairy with the hot side) and probably be too rich.

P.S. I'll post the recipes for you Sandy when I get a chance...my father had a bad fall and I won't have time for a day or two.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Wendy, leaf lard, also called _la panne_, is a sheet of fat covering the loin and enveloping the kidneys. According to Jane Grigson (The Art of Making Sausages, Pates and Other Charcuterie) leaf lard is prepared by having any blood vessels removed, then cut into small cubes or ground (if used for sausages or some pates). Shroomgirl, do you render it anyway for use in pastry? Lard is a product I have no first-hand experience using.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Yep~ render it and use it like Crisco. Amazing stuff!!!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Sometimes, I use a combo lard/butter. Never used the leaf lard though and it looks interesting. I don't use Crisco though, we have something here under the brand Tenderleaf. It's lard as opposed to the vegetable stuff, i.e. Crisco.

I always add a little bit of white vinegar or lemon juice which ensures tenderness and flakiness.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

O.k. I still don't follow exactly...."To render" means to me... to slowly cook off (sorry I don't have a cooking dictionary)/ to render off fat I would cook off the fat? Like bacon, just cook it and it melts into softer fat, then store in the cooler? Isn't veg. fat healthier than animal fat???

But when I use rendered fat it really tastes like the animal it comes from...? Not so clear/clean of a flavor.


Sandy here's the recipe for the mealy crust:

This make 4 crusts if you only want 1, divide the recipe by 4 and that will give you the right quanities of 1.

20 oz. flour
13 oz. shortening
5 oz. ice cold h2o
2 tsp. salt
1 oz. sugar

Rub shortening into flour and salt until fat pieces are like cornmeal in texture. Dissolve salt and sugar in h2o and just gently mix until water is absorbed. Refridgerate apox. 4 hours till well chilled before making your pie. 

Use that crust for your bottom crust, then use your own pie dough recipe for your top . Preferable one that's about 1/2 butter 1/2 shortening.


Apple filling: makes 1 pie

2 lbs. apples peeled and sliced (I needed more for a full 9" pie)
1 oz. butter
3 oz. sugar

saute until apples just barely start turning soft. Then mix together and add:

2 oz. cold h2o
1 oz. cornstarch

Boil this with your apples for a breif moment. Then add:

3.5 oz. sugar
1/3 tsp. salt
1 tsp. cinnamon
1/4 tsp. nutmeg
2 tsp. lemon juice (I omit this when my apples are very tart)
2 tsp. butter

Stir gentle until butter melts and sugar is disolved. Spread apple filling out on a sheet pan to cool and place in the refridgerator to cool down the quickly.

Assemble as usual using mealy dough for your bottom crust. Bake at 425 apro. 40 minutes (or until the dough on the bottom is set). Cool quickly by placing pie on cake rack (not on a solid surface).


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

Yep~ over a low heat cook or simmer the leaf lard until you have"cracklins" and liquid fat. It solidifies like veg shortening. Leaf lard does not have an overt animal flavor and is an old time favorite for deep fried chicken or pies. Healthy aspects.....I've read shtuff recently that says coconut oil is good for you....animal fats better than hydrogenated veg.....who knows what to believe....moderation is probably the best response.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Just for the heck of it I made a pie recently using Morrell Lard. It tasted piggy and meaty. I didn't notice that it was any flakier than my usual delicious pie crust. I typically rub in the cold butter first, leaving it huge, then the shortening, then just toss it with the ice water.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Hi Wendy,

1. Take the fat and dice it roughly. Try not to include any scraps of meat. The fat around the kidneys is considered choicest. 
2. Put the diced fat, which you have weighed, into a large kettle with a couple tablespoons of water. 
3. Heat it over moderate heat until completely rendered and clear and the water has evaporated off. You should have clear, unbrowned fat, with some brown bits in the bottom. 
4. Now, according to my Gram, comes the "secret" part. For each 10 pounds of lard that you started with, add 1 pound of best quality unsalted butter and let it stand in the fat til melted. Mix gently and ladle off the lard into crocks or however you plan to store it in a cool place. _Be sure to get only the clear stuff._ 
5. Drain the brown bits and top a green salad with them.

Uses:
Pie crust 
Tamale dough

P.S.: "In Julia's Kitchen" you will find hard facts about lard. My books are in storage right now. Can someone find and post Julia's findings for me? and yes Shroom, moderation is probably the best response.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Sorry Kimmie I don't have In Julia's Kitchen. 


There are a few lard pie crust recipes in The Pie And Pastry Bible.


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## nancya (Apr 30, 2001)

Shirley O. Corriher has an extensive [really extensive] discussion of fats and flours in pie crust in _Cookwise_ . Now that Iza has me started making pies again...I want to experiment with some of Shirley's recipes and see whether lard does make the flakiest crust and whether low protein flour makes a more tender crust.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

adding things like lard (high melting point and low moisture), milk powder(colour) and acid (lemon juice or vinegar to relax the proteins) help to create the flakiest of crusties. 

the best thing ever for a picture perfect pie, but you would not want to eat it, is puff paste-a combination of tallow and hard hydroginated fat. The melting point is so high, when you eat it, it coats your mouth, awful! but very pretty.


Next question, a la mode or chedder?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

My husband loved apple pie with cheese (any cheese) long before he ever found out that this is commonly done. What a great palate! I don't like a la mode because I tend to be a slow eater and the ice cream usually melts and makes goo out of the crust before I'm done. So, cheddar it is for me too I guess. (although I think I still prefer raw apples with my cheese).


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I have never tried it with cheese, one day I will. In my family the pie is the accompaniment to the ice cream not the other way around.

For ala carte (when cheese is requested) do you prefer to put your pie slice with cheese (one slice or two?) in the oven to melt or the broiler? Cheddar or american?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I love apple pie, when it’s really home made. I never but grocery store apple pie. The apple never taste like apple and they’re often floating in sometime of goo. The crust isn’t much better, often tasting just like cardboard.



Anneke have you ever thought of adding the grated cheese to the dough before baking your apple pie?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

No I haven't Isa, that sounds BRILLIANT though...
I like the idea of adding flavours to the dough: when I make lemon tarts I like using grated lemon zest in the crust.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Cheddar please. No «à la mode» for me, thank you.

Great idea, Isa. Would you use an older Cheddar (30 months)?


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

I don't think you'd really taste anything younger than that Kimmie...


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I agree, it’s nice to add flavour to the dough. I like to add spices or herbs to the dough using it to enhance the flavour of the filling. Spices will gives the crust a nice colour. Herbs are great, you can play with it, chopping it really fine or leaving it whole.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thanks girls!


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Kimmie: Tous les gouts sont dans la nature....


If 30 months old cheddar in your pie makes you happy, go for it! Me? I'll pass.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Isa, what would you use?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

In my apple pie? Nothing except apple and spices: cinnamon, a pinch of ginger, a touch of nutmeg and asmidgen of all spice. Serve with an ice cold glass of milk.


Lately I've been craving cinnamon ice cream, no idea why I've never even tasted cinnamon ice cream. Who knows if I had some maybe I'd have some with the aple pie....


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Isa, there's this really great ice cream place here called Greg's Ice Cream, especially known for their ultimate super-dreamy roasted marshmallow ice cream. (Yuuuummmmmmmm..Campfire in a cone...)
They make cinnamon ice cream once in a while. Frankly, I'm not sure I like it all that much. It has a bit of a grainy feel to it, and because both cinnamon and ice are known for numbing your taste buds, in the end you onkly get texture and very little flavour.
I think cinnamon really works best on something warm...


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Good point Anneke. I do wonder if they use real cinnamon or cassia in their ice cream? It might make a difference in the end product.


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## anneke (Jan 5, 2001)

Aha! Also a good point!
Greg's only uses the real stuff....


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

There's several published recipes for pie crusts with cheese them. They sound interesting, but I alway thought it would ruin the crumb of the pastry....


You can add cinnamon to vanilla ice cream to make cinnamon ice cream. It's quite good. Better yet... freeze layers of cinnamon ice cream with layered vanilla ice cream. Then scoop through both layers so you get a marbled scoop, yum. Lot's you can do with that, incuding add some sugared pecans in your cin. ice cream. That would be nice with you crisp Anneke....


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## rue (Jul 12, 2001)

I don't add any kind of thickening to apple pie, depending on the pectin in the apple to create its own thickening. I dust it with sugar and cinnamon. I limit the sugar as much as possible, between 1/4 to 1/2 cup per 9 inch pie. I don't precook the apples.

This is kind of late but I had found a location on the web last week. I had asked the question of whether some apples had more pectin than others. This is the ans. I received:

"Thank you for visiting our site.

According to the text "Processed Apple Products," reported pectic constituents in apples varied during maturation, which may be due to use of different cultivars and growing conditions. While pectin is found mostly in the peel, pectin also can be linked with various sugars found in the apple flesh (e.g., arabinose, xylose)

We do not have any recent information on the pectin content of various apples, however. You may want to check with universities like Cornell that do research or organizations that deal primarily with fresh apples (www.usapple.org)."

If any one wishes to investigate further maybe this site would be of help.

Rue


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## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

W. deBord: Thanks for the pie recipe. Can't wait to try it out!


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## rue (Jul 12, 2001)

just dropped in for a few seconds and noticed the discussion of leaf lard. When butchering a hog, leaf lard is generally just under the skin and comes off in slabs of almost pure lard. It will render out almost with out cracklings. The other lard that is pulled off of the organs and meat and should not be mixed with the leaf lard but rendered separately. As was stated, the leaf will not carry the flavor of the meat. Any lard that is rendered with meat or connective tissue around the organs etc. will naturally have some of the flavoring and will inbue that to whatever it is cooked with. Lard is still the best for pie crust and fried chicken. 

Rue


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

i usually make about 60-75 10-in. pies come Thanksgiving. I finally got down with my formula and here's what works for me:

1. combination of Granny Smith and Golden Delicious apples.
2. flaky pie crust using 1/2 butter 1/2 shortening. The shortening really helps the piecrust crimping stay in shape, the butter provides wonderful flavor. I only use all shortening for parve pies.
3. I find it easier to do it the old-fashioned way(no pre-cooking the apples) because of time constraints. I make sure the apples are chopped small(more surface area, so they can be packed with less air gaps into the pie shell) and I use cornstarch. Flour is fine but I like the clear juices with cornstarch.
4. I melt the butter and mix it in with the filling instead of dotting the pie with cold butter cubes. More even distribution.
5. Bake at 400F(convection, with a sheet pan underneath) first 15 minutes then lower to 350 for 45 minutes. 
6. Sometimes instead of lemon juice I use orange juice concentrate. 

I certainly have found some useful tips in this thread and hope to try them this coming month.
Wendy, I'm glad Pro Baking(the new edition) is helpful.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm working on my recipe file and realize my best baking powder biscuits use lemon juice for tenderness. Then I came across another recipe from a southern cook who uses lemon juice in her pie crusts. So I remember someone (I think Momoreg?) here mentioned they use lemon juice also in their crust. 

So I was wondering if whom ever would share that point and how much lemon they use...also where did you learn that? I haven't seen any other reference to it in baking books with pie dough?

P.S. Tell me you don't have to roll all those crusts out by hand at the same time Angry? Yuk. 

P. S. What's everyones thoughts about storing their baked pies? With or with-out plastic on top and room temp. or the cooler? I'm not sure if I've noticed any differences over the years with how they keep. Seems they last nicely for about 2 day and then they break down regardless of method.?


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Wendy, the addition of an acid(vinegar, lemon juice, sour cream) helps tenderize the gluten strands in the pie dough. In the Pie and Pastry Bible(Rose Levy B.) she explains this. I don't add an acid to my pie dough since I use pastry flour, but I will try it sometime.
It is tiring to roll out the pie crusts, but I do it a couple of days ahead of time(with my assistant) and stack them between parchment so they don't dry out.
I cool the pies to room temp., then they go in the walk-in in cake boxes.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I'm a pie freezer. Why? Because I like them to last. To preserve my pie I cut them into pieces than put the pie and the plate in the freezer. Once the pie is frozen I individually wrap each piece individually. When I have a pie craving I just oopen my frezer and choose a nice piece.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I store mine the same way angrychef does. 

I don't use lemon juice in my crust, but I've tried vinegar in the past. The difference is subtle.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

And this girl makes great pie! :lips:


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

:blush:



And I knew this guy would come in handy...


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## cookie jim (Apr 24, 2007)

normaly when using glass with anything lower temp by 25 degrees. I read that somewhere and it works well for me. Happy cookig...cookie


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## purecream (Apr 23, 2007)

Apple Pie







2 cups flour 2 Tbs custard powder 1 pinch salt 1/2 cups caster sugar 1 egg 1/3 cups milk 1 kg apples 3 whole cloves 3/4 cups caster sugar 125 g butter 1Prep: Peel and slice the apples.2Beat the egg. Stew the apples until soft with the cloves and the 3/4 cup of sugar. Sift the flour, custard powder and salt into a bowl. Rub in the softened butter. Add the remaining sugar, the egg and milk. Mix to a firm dough. Divide in 2.3Roll out the base and press into the pie dish. Fill with apple. Roll out the top pastry and cover the pie. Decorate and sprinkle with cinnamon sugar. Bake in a moderate oven for 40 minutes. Cool in the refrigerator and then transfer to the freezer.4Defrost well before baking in a slow-moderate oven for 10-15 minutes. Serve with cream, whipped cream, ice cream or custard. Ok, cut and pasted direct from Living Cookbook, off my puter, so sorry about the 'non' image. But this is my favourite apple pie recipe. Also keep in mind, it's metric (aussie) measurements, not USA.
The pastry is a very soft one, so I rarely roll it out thin. For the base, I kinda grab a lump and push it into the pie dish. (I also have a glass deep pie dish that I use specifically for this, cos it's big!) The top pastry, I just gently roll it out until I can do a flippy lift and toss it on top! Very unprofessional, I know, but this is a "Home Bake" Apple Pie, not commercial. I have been making this one for about 20 odd years (ouch, did I say that out loud, groan) and everyone loves it.
Just my 2 cents worth.


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

Apple pie almost every ones favourite.

There is such a variety of apples that as long as you keep to what I call cooking apples all should go well. 
I peel and slice my apples, poach them with just a hint of water to stop sticking to bottom of saucepan, I add 1/2 teaspoon ascorbic acid to hold the colour, and I then add sugar to taste. I also add a table spoon of modified corn starch dissolved in a little water and stir what is needed to firm up the apple if very juicy. Leave to cool and when cool make pastry,
1 cup butter,salted
2 cups flour 
1/4 cup sugar
1 egg
2 table spoons cold water.

I always cook my pies on a dark cooky sheet this guarantees nice bottom crust. qahtan


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## chefraz (May 10, 2007)

you just need something to soak up the moisture, like thin round of cake or bread crumbs on the bottom.if you want something really interesting put almond cream on the bottom.when it cooks it will make a cake'y moisture barrier ,that tastes great with apples.
Apple Frangipane Tart Recipe & Photo - Joyofbaking.com good recipe.


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## stanalys13 (Aug 2, 2009)

i am a retired naval aviator and have never cooked a pie ** bu i know how i like them ** tasty soft apples ** not al dente ** so how do i get the apples to be soft in the finished pie ** any help would expand my novice status.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>get soft apples

easy. aviate, navigate, communicate. cook the apples, then add to the pie.


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