# Patrons Do Ramsey



## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

if you have been following along in the professional sections, and others, there's quite a documented trail of vebal, emotional, managerial abuse heaped on the kitchen help.

although not "completely accepted at face value" there is an undercurrent of "it's a high stress, fast paced" environment where it takes a foul mouthed insulting degrading demeaning kitchen dictator to make anything happen "right"

personally, if I were sitting in a Gordon Ramsey established and heard / saw any of his antics, I'd tell him to "Pack his knives and leave" in a heartbeat.
I've been in quite a few "high end" places - Mesa Grill for example - open kitchen - there is NONE of Gordon's tactics visible. so his behavior is not a required element.

since us non-professionals post outside the professional sections, seemed like an idea to open up the topic for patrons of the menu.....

it occurred to me that us non-professional chef/kitchen types might also have a few "high stress" jobs to deal with.
any body know a heart surgeon that reduces his OR staff to tears ala Gordon? 
would you like to be on Gordon's table?

or how about the trauma teams? 
at least Gordon has the advantage of a menu - trauma teams do not have the option to say:
"Pick one injury from Column A and one injury from Column B - we're not prepared to service any other injuries."
that's no "stress"?

I have worked for large companies, small companies, independent, consulting....
I have never encountered an experience (other than boot camp) where such abuse of employees is tolerated.

Would you patronize an establishment where the kitchen staff are having their heads beat in for your dining pleasure?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Construction perhaps? But still I don't think it happens even there. One of the benefits of an open kitchen is the kitchen staff know there's no room for obscenities. I'd inform the manager and walk out if I heard any of that @%^* going on.


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## lollarossa (Feb 22, 2006)

1) It's all for TV in his American shows. Ramsay is well documented as being a great mentor and coach as well some what of a teddy bear when it comes to his staff. He has many people that have worked for him for years, some have been with him from the start.

2) Construction. I did a little stint is construction for extra pay and was degraded more on the work site than I EVER was in a kitchen.

3) Military? Say that is no comparison? Military brigade, kitchen brigade. I also like to think one has to attack the prep and attack the dupes. If ya don't you're losing the battle.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

.....some what of a teddy bear

wow. I would never have thought of promoting my reputation by publicly portraying myself as a world class <uhmm, non-complimentary label>

based on his tv personae in at least two separate shows, I would not go near any of his establishments; reported with good food or otherwise.

if the tv Gordon is so unhappy with his staff, he should send them packing. it _is_ a competitive field and I'm certain someone would be happy to demonstrate their more better competence.

military boot camp is a right of passage with limited duration.
there's ample evidence here that the abusive screaming drill sgt of the kitchen is an everyday all day event. hence I excluded boot camp.
tv is tv; folks here are not on tv, they're on "real life" and the situation described is not an "unknown"

in my military career, in a progress of tens to hundreds of subordinates, had I ever publicly treated them as Mr. Gordon does I'd be making little rocks out of big rocks in Leavenworth. and that is not to say I never dragged a subordinate into a private discussion (see: walk in) and read them the riot act.

that was then. the military has changes and perhaps those lumpy chested sailors are way more tougher than the flat chested sailors I dealt with - but I don't think so.

note to staff - please correct the thread spelling. if I'm gonna lump Gordon I reckon I owe him the courtesy of spelling his name correctly.....


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I've eaten at most of Gordon Ramsay's restaurants in London, including the restaurants run by many of his proteges, including marcus Wareing and Angela hartnett.

Those chefs wouldn't have stayed with him as long as they did (both are now opening their own London dining venues) if he was such an ar sehole.

I have NEVER had a poor meal in a Ramsay restaurant, which is more than I can say for other Michelin star places in the UK.


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## longfellow (Jun 11, 2008)

Dude its a TV show. who would watch a tv show of cooks just cooking food
in a calm subdued enviroment. Ramsey knows how to play in front of the cameras. If he acted like that to his real staff ,especially the good ones, they would pack their knife in a london min.


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

As I said before in a post where we all gathered round to arm chair analyze the in your face chef: 
Where else do you see this sort of behavior? College and professional sports coaches. I'm married to a former coach and you can bet your bottom dollar that the players (both professional and college) and subordinate coaches take it, or they leave it. Remember, GR played professional soccer at one time so I'm thinking he picked it up there.

Great story I heard at some sort of Sport Banquet where coaches from all over were given honors (don't ask me what it was, I've been to too many):
The coach being honored harkened back to a story about when he was a young man playing football. (I think it was at UGA but I honestly don't recall) It was just after the end of WWII and it was the first year that young college boys like him were asked to play with Veterans returning home from the war.
He cracked funny that he thought the other team had been scary before, now he had to go up against guys who had left fingers on Iwo Jima.
The coach, apparently legendary for his level of getting in the faces of his players, began his shtick with one of these veterans. The young man, who had seen some real hairy stuff in the war, promptly decked the coach and walked off the practice field. The coach jumped up, ran after the player begging him to come back. Announcing, loudly, to everyone that that was just the kind of player he was looking for.

Would I walk out of an establishment if I overheard that kind of situation, probably not. 

I've been in a place where the owner/manager went ballistic in the kitchen. His staff had spent the previous day frying every piece of chicken he had, for no apparent reason. Then instead of putting it away properly, they left it in warmers which they turned off before they left for the night. The straw that broke his back was their inability to turn out baked potatoes that weren't raw inside. Potatoes went flying along with a few choice words. Given the amount of money they had managed to take out of his children's mouths I can't say that I blame him.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Ahh, back in the day, when the odd pot or pan would fly by and the jokes were tres salty. The chef put you in your place with a verbal barrage that would make a salor blush. Those days are gone. 
Showing my age, and love of the craft. 
Ramsey's restaurants are stellar and his kitchens well above board. 
The show is a hoot and just silly.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

How about all of us?


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Gordon sets himself up to be hated by American viewers. Actually, people love to hate him and there's a difference in that. 

The thing that you obviously do not know is that Gordon elevates the dining experience to a degree you would not believe if you didn't see it for yourself. It is a complete dining experience without one aspect lacking - service, atmosphere, and of course the food. It would be better if you experienced it first hand BEFORE putting him down.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

/q
The thing that you obviously do not know is that Gordon elevates the dining experience to a degree you would not believe if you didn't see it for yourself. It is a complete dining experience without one aspect lacking - service, atmosphere, and of course the food. It would be better if you experienced it first hand BEFORE putting him down.
/uq

a primary concern - to me - when contemplating the "where we goin?" is "and where is the good eatin' places?"

I do not claim to be the world's ultimate food dining service and taste expert. it's just me and whether I found the experience exceeds, meets, or fails my expectations.

I've had happy and unhappy experiences at 200 USD/head as well at 35 USD/head. it is what it is and RealTV was not present.

example: Mesa Grill - the pepper sauces are superb. the rest of the food is good, almost. when I mentioned - on prompting - of "how was that?" to our server that the oyster Rockefeller were over cooked & tough, I was invited to send Bobby an email. that sorta' completely totally washes out any theory of "customer." 

if you don't want to know, stop asking.

.......By the way, I would rather eat my cigarette ashes rolled up in a tortilla than revisit the Mesa Grill again. 
I can go with that; got a light?

I've dined extensively over multiple continents and styles. and frankly my dear, I rather have something dished up by a happy crowd than some of Gordon's (portrayed) lot.

true, untrue, don't care. tv, not tv, even less important. 
I do not subscribe to the theory that one can inspire the best efforts of a staff via the most brutal verbal/emotional/physical beatings on record.

if it's a "tv rating thing" okay, no problem. 
if anyone thinks his tv person / method / approach will inspire me to visit any of his establishments anywhere in the world.... well, not gonna' happen - ergo for me there will be no "try it before you put it down." 

Gordon needs to read up on "leadership" - he ain't portraying any of that. He has only demonstrated on tv that any Limey can be a perfect a**. humpf, and they said Ami's had the lock on that . . .


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Like I said, Gordon sets himself up to be hated so it's your right to do so. His American shows are disappointing to me because he obviously hams it up for ratings. His UK shows on the other hand (Gordon's F word, and Kitchen Nightmares) are really insightful as to what kind of chef he is. I especially like the recipes he shows on youtube as well. Completely different guy. In these shows you might see someone who curses a lot, never backs down from his instinct, pushes people, and is upfront with what he thinks no matter if it is "nice" or not. 

A lot like you I would say.

He seems insensitive but in the end I think he's someone who cares enough about the business to expect the best, always gets the most out of the staff, and is not afraid to dish out the compliments when a level of professionalism is reached. He may act like a lion but in truth he's just a teddy bear that revels in the success of others. It's just tough love.

At the end of my day I've never tasted a Gordon dish I did not like.:smiles:


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Well said, Mapiva. I totally agree! 

Now that he and Marcus Wareing have fallen out, I'm interested to see whether Wareing stays true to Ramsay's style and standards. He is a GREAT chef - and I'm going to give his place another try when next in London and able to book a table.


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## mpeirson (Jan 10, 2008)

I dislike how that kind of behavior is "acceptable" now, ratings or not. I know somewhere that behavior has always been there, but maybe that's what's wrong with so much nowadays. I am sure that is too broad of a statement to make, but it "feels" like everything is so negative and nasty now. I do not watch any reality shows whatsoever due to the humiliation and nastiness that consumes them. If you want to feel bad, just watch the news. Just thinking too much....:blush:


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## willie24 (Aug 13, 2008)

I must say that I haven't watched much of Ramsay's show - once, about twenty minutes worth. I realize that this not his true personality - if it was he'd have a hard time keeping help. What I don't understand why watching people being humiliated is entertaining. If it's all for show what's the point? Like most reality shows once the camera light goes on reality goes out the window and it becomes just another tv show. 


As talented and successful as Mr. Ramsay it is lost on me - I find him and his show a waste of time. If he is as good a mentor and as caring on his shows across the pond as several of you have said then let's see that -not the borish act he's brought to the states.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

Mapiva -

I don't "hate" Gordon Ramsay - never met the man. 

based on what he has chosen to publicly portray I would not be seeking out any of his places to eat. 
very simple, that's it, that's all.
here's the original question:
Would you patronize an establishment where the kitchen staff are having their heads beat in for your dining pleasure?

I've seen here non-first hand reports that he is really a schugar-sheffie and cuddles his staff every night.
so........... why the difference? for tv? 

in contrast, Jamie Oliver has produced several "series" - and I've seen him exhibit some colorful behavior - but not on his students / staff.
when was the last time you saw Thomas Keller verbally abusing his dishwasher?


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## jbd (Mar 17, 2008)

From what I understand DeBakey was no particularly pleasant person to be trained by. He was apparently quite capable of ripping someone a new one. I believe Christian Bernard was also similar in his abilities. I never worked with these guys but have worked with some people who trained under them. I have seen several surgeons reduce a staff member to tears. I was on the receiving end of such treatment on a few occasions early on although it didn't have the desired effect on me.


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## geimhreadh (Sep 7, 2008)

You really need to watch the British versions of Ramsay's shows. They're much more calm, educational, and he even speaks in a softer voice. But americans are forced to resort to that shock value, uninformative entertainment to get ratings.

I actually have an aunt who's been in and out of the restaurant business for a while now, who worships at the altar of Ramsay (or rather, his drooling, faux-psychotic American counterpart), and believes that his antics are not only acceptable, but imperative to running a successful kitchen. Suffice to say, the woman is a fraud and a perpetual failure.

<edited for content>


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

......... watch the British versions of Ramsay's shows.

no gottum' PAL tv; sorry.

......resort to that shock value, uninformative entertainment to get ratings.
now that I can readily understand.

the original question was:
<omitted citation in lieu of boredom....>

I choose not to spend my dollars in establishments that have a public, intentional, no oversight possible (hear yea here yea: "video edit") propensity to abuse their kitchen staff.

if Gordon isn't "real" per his tv image, he da*n site well needs to think about what he's doing - turns me off. 
spelled o-f-f 
as in not never gonna' even think about going there.


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## willie24 (Aug 13, 2008)

Mapiva - I am altering my opinion of Gorden Ramsay. Last night I watched two episodes of Kitchen Nightmares on BBCA and was pleasantly surprised and entertained. He truly is a different person than he portrays on his US show. I'm still put off by his profanity - I'm no prude by any stretch of the imagination, but I found it distracting to the flow of the show and disrepectful to the people who were in his company at the time. I can understand it in the kitchen - been there, done that - but when you're sitting down with local townspeople of mixed gender and spouting out the F word I don't get it.

We don't all hate Ramsay, we just haven't seen his actual personality in most cases.


Openmindedly,
Willie


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Dillbert;231618
Would you patronize an establishment where the kitchen staff are having their heads beat in for your dining pleasure?[/quote said:


> I'm not sure how much of that is real, and how much is done for 'show'... but to answer the above question:
> 
> No, I would not patronize such a place, and I would tell the management/owner the reason.
> 
> I've waitressed in quite a number of places from 1962 to 1996, from an exclusive country club...all silver service...to small family owned restaurants. Only once did I witness anything close to Ramsay's typical performances. I was called in to sub in a place I had never worked before on Easter Sunday because they expected to be very busy, and one of the regulars had called in at the last minute. It was fairly easy, all buffet, so even being unfamiliar with the place, I caught on fast. About half way through the day one of the little bus girls dropped a cup and saucer and they shattered. The owner/chef came out of the kitchen and right there in the dining room filled with patrons, he ranted at this poor girl until she was in tears, telling her how stupid and clumsy she was, and that it would be taken out of her pay. Then went back into the kitchen, and continued as if nothing had happened. At the end of the shift, he complimented my work, paid me and asked if I wanted a steady job. I said I didn't like the way he treated his help, and I didn't think I would ever need a job badly enough to work for him. And furthermore I would never eat in his restaurant for the same reason. And I never did.


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## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Geimhreadh;238932 said:


> ._ But considering that _
> 
> *<95% of americans are certifiably retarded, > ??*
> 
> ...


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Well I would understand if you did not want to patronize this establishment. This man was just throwing his weight around and yelling nonsense at something that was not preventable or even worth getting mad over. I cannot claim to know Gordon Ramsay personally but I can vouch for this - Gordon would never fly off the handle over something like that. When he does fly off in a range you will notice it is usually for one reason only: The person does not care about their job and is not putting their best effort forth.


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## canadatogo (Mar 3, 2007)

Just my two cents:

I moved from Canada to Ireland a year ago. In Canada I only ever saw Ramsey yelling at people on ****'s Kitchen and Kitchen Nightmares. When I was in Ireland though, they had another programme on (I don't think it was the F Word, but not sure) where he was in his own restaurant. I was a bit shocked at the difference; he wasn't yelling at anyone, he didn't throw anything, and he was actually being really nice to people. And now (I'm in Scotland now) I get to watch the F Word sometimes, and I can't believe how different this Ramsey is from the one that we see in Canada.

I guess it's a bit like profesional wrestling (but without the steroids) in that they created this persona for him to attract viewers and to give them someone to hate. I don't think they would have as many viewers in Canada and America if he wasn't protrayed in that way.


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## irish foodie (Sep 16, 2008)

i have such a love/hate thing with gordon.

in earlier years i agreed with his attack on the fellow he shoved onto a stove. having cooked in a hot kitchen i totally understood where he was coming from with his aggression. 

then i watched the programmes and loved them mostly. and i love the way he makes failing restaurants better and mostly i agree with his changes. and i love the way he wants to clean the kitchens and get rid of the dirt and dirty habits some of them have. and his modernisation of the restaurants is mostly great.

what turned me off him a bit (and this is SO trite) is his friendship with the beckhams. somehow it tore away all his macho skin and made him just a sad wannabe. i know that is ridiculous, but for me he went way, way down.

and before this i had said i would queue to enter one of his restaurants if i were in the uk and now we have a gr restaurant here in ireland and wild horses would not drag me to that place. mostly i have to say because he is never there - and i know that is stupid because obviously he is not present in everyone of the 20 odd restaurants he runs, but for me, if i were gonna pay that money i would expect gr to be there.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Geimhreadh has edited out his comments about 95% of Americans. Thank you Geimhreadh.

I'm moving this to the Late Night Cafe.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Maybe his friendship with the Beckhams might have something to do with his footballing career. I don't think he was ever in the major leagues but he was definitely a pro soccer player in his past life.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Mapiva
As a Scot, I can assure you that he WAS in a major league, he played for Glasgow Rangers until he was injured and then turned to food.

Rangers are one of Glasgow's two teams 

(PS I hurts me to say anything kind about Rangers - I'm a Hibs fan!)


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

See then? It's settled. He's friends with the Beckhams not because he's a wannabe but because he's a footballer!

(PS - you didn't say anything kind about the Rangers, just that it's one of the 2 teams so no worries for you).

Nowadays it's so common for chefs to become celebrities. All the celebrities have their favorite pet chefs don't they? Gwyneth has Mario, Madonna has Jamie, Posh and Becks have Gordon, oh and who else is out there...?


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## chefhow (Oct 16, 2008)

I realize this is old and a little beat to death but ppl who havent or dont work in the industry dont have a true understanding for what its like to crank out plates for hours on end at 100f ++ temps with knives flying and sautee pans whipping around and fire buring all around you with orders being called out and having to hear everything so that the food comes up togehter and still focused enought not to lose your $h!+!!. Its dangerous, stressful and emotional, that's why we do it. Kitchen ppl are a certain breed and a VERY thick skinned one by nature, if your not you wont survive. 

As for Gordon Ramsey, I have met him, and find him to be very knowledgable, a great teacher, INSANELY PASSIONATE, and more than willing to take your head off if need be. Part of the way he acted was age and part was passion. When I was an apprentice I was my chefs whipping post DAILY whether I deserved it or not didnt matter. I have plates thrown at me, pots and pans tossed at me, was burnt on purpose and on several occasions almost cut on purpose. I stayed because it was one of 2 5star resorts in the state of FL at the time and he was one of the most respected and talked about chefs at the time. He made me who I am and taught me about 75% of what I know. I also learned how not to treat ppl as I grew up and became an owner and chef in my own right. Its about learning ppl, pushing them 1 step past the limit, recognizing that line and taking 1 step back so you are standing on it.


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