# An Open Letter to Gordon Ramsay



## cheftalk.com (Mar 11, 2007)

An open letter to Chef Ramsay from another chef.

Read the full article here...

*These articles are brought to you each month from ChefTalk.com.


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## shipscook (Jan 14, 2007)

thank you,

Nan


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

The young chefs and wannabees have copied Emeril; now I'm not surprised some are following GR's hateful path. Lord help us!


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

I finally watched ****'s Kitchen a week or two ago. Well, I watched part of it. Now I remember why I hardly ever watch television. What pathetically lame "entertainment"

mjb.


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## renhoek (Jun 24, 2008)

Has anyone here worked in a Ramsay-like kitchen?

The way Ramsay and Marco Pierre White talk about professional kitchens, it's like they are SAS training camps full of degenerates who need to be kicked into shape (sometimes literally)....and the only way a chef can ensure a good team is to push everyone past breaking point and see if they can take the heat.


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

I really don't know why they make us watch such drivel!! and here in UK we have to pay through our noses for the privelige!! Such thugs and Hooligans lIke GR and MPW should be IGNORED instead of being encouraged to make c****p shows like that. Shows like that tell youngsters that it is OK to behave like complete B*****s - when it clearly is NOT!!!


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

It's "entertainment" and it gets ratings.....that is ALL FOX cares about, FOX and ****'s Kitchen aren't in the business of educating people on being a chef, they are in the business of making money, and driving ratings(you can trust me on this one :smoking .....I wouldn't give it another thought really.....as none of us really think it's in any shape or form "reality" 

Also, it's not just like this for Chefs, it's like this across ANY industry where a television show has been made. For instance, one of my other hobbies, is custom motorcycles, and American Chopper, contrary to the shows popularity, is looked at just as you guys are looking at ****'s Kitchen by the custom motorcycle enthusiast. I have friends that are world renowned tattoo artists, that have the same gripes with the tattoo shows out there. (One, ironically, is even working for the tattoo shop in one of those shows now) But....the public who isn't a chef, bike builder, or tattoo artist, doesn't care about what is "real" and what is not....they just want to be entertained. If you look on the bright side, a lot of people are at least "introduced" to cooking, bike building, and tattooing through these shows, but after a quick investigation learn what it is REALLY about,and get even more into it....thus introducing pretty good talent to the pool. I don't think we are breeding chefs simply from watching ****'s Kitchen, or who think that is the way it is....ok, you may find an exception, but 99.9% not. 

I see Gordon Ramsay as fitting into the same "entertainment" mold as The Tuetels, Jesse James.....and you can trust me on THIS one, for these guys TV and 'real life' are COMPLETELY different.....

I guess what I'm trying to say is I bet many of you watch American Chopper or Monster Garage and think that is what bike building is about, but could care less, because you're just watching for entertainment purposes......well the folks who don't want to be chefs, just watch HK for the same reason.....but for ALL those shows, the folks really interested in the trade, know what's up...so no worries. 

I have this female friend who absolutely LOVES HK, but hates top chef.....said she gets turned on by an angry brit..............haha.


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Also, FOX is DEFINITELY not in the business of making "Quality" shows....if it happens it, happens, but FOX is definitely in the business of making ones that make money, same goes with movies, FOX movies are pretty horrible, but they make money, they know they are horrible, but they know they will make money. Some of them turn out "ok" and every 20 years they get a "titanic"...but in general, fox isn't looking at quality. 

If you look at any business Rupert runs, you will see, they all know how to make money, but many are questionable as far as quality/integrity/etc. goes.....New York Post? FOX News? 

and yes, I'm bitter as **** that they will most likely ruin The Day the Earth Stood Still and Marley and Me.....


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## johnnybones (Jun 24, 2008)

I think you all hit on valid points What it really comes down to is "****'s Kitchen" and "Kitchen Nightmares" bring in ratings. I watch those shows purely for the entertainment value. I'm new to the industry (6 years) and I don't see that kind of behaivor in any kitchen that I've been in. I work in a steakhouse with an open kitchen where guest are free to come up and talk to the cooks. At least once a night I hear comarisons being made between "****'s Kitchen" and my kitchen. It's kind of embarassing even though I truely respect Gordon Ramsay and his accomplishments.

By the way, this was my first post. Hello everyone


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## lola35 (May 20, 2007)

It is a TV SHOW!!!
These so called chefs( none of which is worth being a line cook let alone a sous chef in Gordon's place) deserve to be yelled at. Working the line is hard for anyone with any experience. They are messing up basic stuff. They went into the show KNOWING they would get yelled at..ITS FRIGGING Gordon Ramsey for Pete's sake...not their mummy!!!

When i went to school at the CIA in the early 90's , we got yelled at...ALOT. For no reasons sometimes. But we also were taught by some of the best CMC in the world. One takes that into account and you can stand a bit of yelling. These chefs had and have more experience than any of us there. Some chefs didn't yell but would give you a look that felt like you were getting yelled at and it would have been better to have gotten yelled at.

That is just the way of this business. Some chefs are yellers. So what?
Gordon Ramsey has obtain more respect from his peers and employees( a reported 85% retention rate among his staff...) What do i care if he makes a fool out of himself by yelling at incompetent ppl. Thats his shtick...not mine.

Anyone that believes that chefs behave like Gordon or any of the top chef chefs..in real life are idiots. Chefs ARE hotheaded...but it is how we handle the stress that sets us apart. Some ppl need to be yelled at during a rush so that they snap out of their weeds they have built. While during the prep or down town a firm guided hand is better. Different situations call for different techniques. None of us is perfect as a chef.



Each chef has a style..Gordon is the PT Barium of the culinary world.


btw..Marco Pierre White is a far Superior chef than his protégé GR. His version of ****'s Kitchen..which aired this past fall was amazing. While he was still stern and VERY VERY vocal, you got the sense he loved what he did and loved "taking ppl by the hand" and teaching him which i have heard is his style. Marco's reputation was his love of tossing ppl out of the resturants...which he did several times:lol:. And you have to respect a man who gives back his Michelin stars because he is no longer working in his 
restaurants. Marco is also the reason I love Mario Batali...those two rocked it out in London!!!!(there is more to it than that...:crazy::blush


But anyway...I still don't understand why ppl even go on that show. They know they will be yelled at. I think we as a nation(USA) have some sort of sick obsession with watching ppl get humilated..why else would the ratings be threw the roof. We tune into to see Gordon go ape ****..even if he is a brilliant chef.


Though i rather be working for Gordon than Bobby or Rocco....ewwww


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes and No.

Ramsay used to be a much bigger SOB in reality than he is now. In fact, for a number of reasons, including being outed as a right [email protected]$tard by a bunch of English media, he's gone positively all warm and fuzzy. Even at his most abusive he was always incredibly loyal and managed to inspire the same with most of his staff.

He's clearly got a few problems and just as clearly is working hard to overcome them. At least partially. At least outside of HK. You can see how much he's mellowed in the more recent Kitchen Nightmares. On the other hand (there's always one of those isn't there?), the big pric% image is publicity and that's what ****'s Kitchen is based on the publicity and Ramsay's image. 

Recognize that the image is marketable, that Ramsay is an entrepreneur. In addition to being a chef and restaurateur he is also a television personality. He's all about the money and will not pass up an opportunity even if it means caricaturing himself and his flaws.

Ramsay is particularly objectionable on his HK show -- no question about it. But I've worked with people almost as bad in real employment settings and nothing was ever said about the "basic-training" type of abuse. BTW, if you've ever been through Basic you know what he's doing. Having been through the real thing and several "lite" versions connected with jobs, I would never subject myself to it again. And in any situation other than the service -- if anyone laid hands on me once, they wouldn't do it a second time without a physical response. Before law school anyway. I'm hardly unique, there are a lot of guys like that; perhaps most of us. I'd guess the HK contestants are given all sorts of warnings and sign all sorts of agreements and waivers. 

The author of the letter questions the way Ramsay misleads the general public about what life is like in today's real kitchens. But we have to question the audience's enjoyment of the sadism. Personally, I have more problems with the audience than with Ramsay. I object to the image that Fox portrays of Americans as people who will accept any level of abuse for money. 

I agree that few ****'s Kitchen contestants are worth a darn. Many, I wouldn't let touch my food. There are a few that are okay though -- if not worth the prize which is supposedly offered. The worst ones are quickly segregated. Of the few that have discipline and/or talent, they hold up to the pressure and abuse. Which is the point. If you can handle Ramsay at his worst, you can handle anything. If you watch the show closely you'll see that there are a number of hidden tests besides the pressure and the express contests. For instance, if you're selected to choose who goes on the block, will you give an honest answer or try to advance yourself by putting a competitor on the bubble instead of the weakest team member. 

BDL


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## joe george (Oct 24, 2007)

Hello Everyone,

My name is Joe George and I am the author of the article. I just wanted to say how pleased I am that there have been so many spirited comments…thanks for posting them.

The article reflects my personal opinions on not just the show, Hells Kitchen, but our industry in general…and Nicko was kind enough to allow me to post them on his site. 

My main points are these:
I really do feel that no one should treat another person the way Gordon Ramsay treats people on his show, whether it is acting, real-life, a TV show or whatever.

I do not feel that it is necessary to treat people like this to train them, develop a strong staff, or run an efficient kitchen.

I realize that this is a TV show and that most realize it is just fantasy, but I also think that this type of show and Ramsay's actions will perpetuate the myth of a hot headed chef.
(This comment is directed to a particular commenter on this site, lola35: How very inappropriate of you to discuss such a personal matter in such a public forum. Your views are not only presumptuous but highly inaccurate. We CHOSE to close the restaurant for highly personal reasons which shall not be disclosed here. If you have the burning desire to know the truth, feel free to contact me via telephone, or go to the author's page and send me an email directly.)

Thanks again everyone, I'm enjoying the comments. All of these comments demonstrates our love of our profession and how serious we are about it.

Peace,

Joe


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## renhoek (Jun 24, 2008)

Has anyone else noticed that the kitchen staff in Ramsay's real-life restaurants are all quite SMALL? In shows like Ramsay's Boiling Point, I don't think I saw one cook who was bigger than 150lbs. 

Perhaps Ramsay doesn't feel comfortable hiring anyone with physical size? Typical bully...it's much easier to push around and intimidate the little guy


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## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

You haven't seen any Japanese gameshows have you?!

The fact is, many americans will accept any level of abuse for money....and the rest of us (majority) enjoy watching. The ratings prove that. 

Believe you me, I hate Rupert Murdoch more than ANYONE on this board....(THAT I can guarantee).....but you can't argue with his success of turning crap into dollars.


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## mslynnie (Mar 23, 2008)

If you find yourself not being a chef anymore.............Please consider writing!!! Amazing and very well written...... It was a meaninful letter that I hope Chef Ramsey does see. Thank you!!


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## abefroman (Mar 12, 2005)

He||'s Kitchen may suck, but I think Kitchen Nightmares is better, especially the business aspect of it if you are planning to open a restaurant.

And if you haven't watch any of the He||'s Kitchen's next week will be good, they last 2 design their own menus and also decorate their side of the restaurant.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

A new TV programme is being trailered at the moment - due to air soon - it's MCP finding the Best of British produce and killing it, cooking it and eataing it! 

I can't remember the name, but I'll definitely be looking out for it.


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I guess I'm part of the minority that really doesn't get too bothered over HK. Its entertainment, people watch it knowing what it is. If you don't like it change the channel.

When you sign up to do that show, you know very well what you are getting into. If you can't take it don't sign up.


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

Bottom line is that GR and MPW are THUGS! forget their talent and their accomplishments - they are down and out BULLIES and THUGS - they should be ignored and booted off our TV screens. GR's book is nothing but self-praise and 'I AM'. Our society has become so degraded that people call this kind of drivel 'entertainment' - I do not find it mildly entertaining!

I strongly agree with everything in the letter and also Joe's comments above. Each of us leaves a lasting impression on the people we interact with and yes I do remember people's unkindnesses towards me and how they made me feel.


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## eatwell (Jun 27, 2008)

Just saw GR on the Graham Norton show (BBC America)...blah. Gotta say I can get sucked into Kitchen Nightmares every once in a while, but after working (way back when) for people like him I can only take so much.

Ran into this guy in Australia, though he lives here in the states now. He's the anti-GR:

the whole 9 .com blogs getforked

Hello!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Have you ever eaten in Gordon's restaurants? I urge you to and THEN make a judgement on him. Anyone that can inspire their staff to cook dishes that are that delicious and create immaculate service can't be all that scary. It's just a show and I'm pretty sure your television has an off button.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Good points.

BDL


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

You're still not getting it...it's not about the show...it's not about how good his food is...it's not about if it's "real or not"...it's about the message he gives to the public...and yes, my television does have an off button and a remote...I find that I use it a lot when I see GR on the screen.


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## tessa (Sep 9, 2007)

i know somebody who worked for GR holdings in england and he was just the same in real life , i dont think he has the best manners in the world but boy oh boy hes an absolute master at what he does with food. He is so passionate about cooking and food and doesnt suffer fools gladly. TV programs always edit the **** out of everything , so you never ever see any of the good stuff that might actually happen you only get to see what the tv producers want to show you. I have seen him in interviews on tv over here and he comes across as a real pussycat. Anybody that works underneath him gets trained really well and has a good work ethic


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

No I haven't eaten at any of his restaurants and I am not going to . As I said before - TV show or not, our young people of today take everything on TV as 'real' - so they are being led to believe that behaving like GR and MPW is perfectly acceptable in society - well it is NOT! - thugs and bullies should be ignored not encouraged!

And yes I too have an off button but I merely use my channel changer to watch something similar - done in a light hearted manner and absolutely hilarious - 'CHEF' - they are showing repeats again to everybody's delight!


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

GR is an extremely talented businessman, he has marketed himself as... "The bad tempered foul mouthed Chef" or whatever. This has been far more successful than any restaurant he has ever owned and made him more money than he could ever have dreamed of. Can you blame him for milking it?

I agree, young people are impressed by our TV screens but shouldn't parents be guiding them a little and explaining that these are not real kitchen situations, or even real people, they are just shows and actors. 

Have you ever seen GR interviewed by Johnathan Ross? Ramsay is shy, modest and very funny, not what we are used to seeing from this over marketed monster.


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, I blame him...money and fame is not everything...especially when he's sending such a bad message.

And the kid's parents are most likely watching the show with them.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

If it's not about the show, or how good his food is, or if it's real or not, then I don't see your point.

What's the bad message that he gives to the public? That you have to work smart, prepare good local ingredients simply, and put effort into what you do? I do not disagree with this image. There are more important things to worry about in life than tv bullies. There are bigger problems that call for our attention than the "misconception of chefs." If you're not willing to go see for yourself how immaculately Gordon's restaurants run and how delicious the food is then your view is a little.... small and irrelevant.


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## jonah523 (May 29, 2008)

We can argue till the cows come home about the moral uprightedness of the people who advertise and run these types of shows. The bottom line is that Gordon Ramsay is completely within his rights to act the way he does and run his show however he darn well pleases. While I personally think it's important to consider the impact ones actions have on another human being, it certainly is not my place, or anybody elses for that matter, to impose such a philosophy on anybody else. That said, 
I do think that shows like ****'s Kitchen, and "reality" TV in general are some of the lowest forms of entertainment. They often exploit people's fascination with train wrecks, and an interest in watching others get torn down... It's sad, and I think it reflects a disturbing aspect of our society as a whole, but certainly not a new one... We have not come very far from Gladiators and Bear-Baiting... 
If kids watch this show, it's not the job of Gordon Ramsay to include a disclaimer saying "now kids, it's really not nice to treat people like this in real life, so please take everything here with a grain of salt". It's the job of the parents and the job of his or her teachers. I think it's folly to rely or expect TV to educate people. It rarely happens.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Do you think that _Top Chef_ and _The Next Food Network Star_ fall into this catagory?

scb


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## jonah523 (May 29, 2008)

Top Chef, i think, is a good reality TV show... By that I mean that it seems, from what of it I've seen, that it's pretty even handed, and the judges criticisms, though straight to the point and sometimes harsh, are constructive. They're not just a bunch of expletives strung together, coupled with finger pointing. Long story short, I appreciate the civility. 
I haven't really watched The Next Food Network Star, so I won't comment on that one.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

With few exceptions, the contestants on the Next FoodNetwork Star are so hapless they make me feel sorry for them. What makes the show surreal is that man of the actual "Stars" who evaluate the contestants are just as hapless. 

Top Chef has a lot of strong cooks. Each season seems to get stronger. The three finalists this year were all very good.

BDL


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

What's your take on the potty-mouthed contestants? There are an awful lot of expletives deleted ...

scb


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

There is no question in my mind that Ramsay knows his onions. However having taught in a culinary school I can tell you that his approach would surely break down the morale of the student. You must give them confidence and a can do attitude. Alas if he pulled some of his nonsense off in a commercial kitchen he would be in front of the labor board on all kinds of charges of harassment, as would his employer, or would be stabbed buy another employee.


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## jonah523 (May 29, 2008)

I'll give a little more slack to the contestants, but not much. When part of the contest is showing that you can be both an efficient leader as well as a good team player (sorry, I can't think of a less cliche way of putting that), I think it's important to show that you can express yourself in a way that befits an adult in a professional environment.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but most _pinche_ cooks in most _pinche_ restaurant kitchens use a LOT of _pinche_ profanity.

BDL


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## jonah523 (May 29, 2008)

point taken


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I agree with you 100%. In fact in my opinion the 2 that are capable of running any commercial kitchen are Mario and Emeril. The rest of them do well as actors and actresses and entertainers.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not quite sure I know how to break this to you, but Ramsay worked his way up the brigade system and probably got his "gunnery sergeant" attitude from Marco Pierre White. He got two Michelin stars in his first head chef job at Aubergine, and three Michelin stars in his subsquent job, the eponymous (wait for it) Gordon Ramsay. When I say chef, I mean "chef" as in actually in the kitchen full time just like you. Also, FWIW, his personnel are by and large fanatically loyal. Not that there aren't some notable exceptions.

I enjoy a lot of what you have to offer in your posts, especially when you write about event and other large-group cooking. You're really well grounded in the basics and have a huge collection of great tricks to go with them. But I wonder where you get the "in front of the labor board on all kinds of charges of harassment, as would his employer," stuff. In what jurisdiction do you believe this would happen. Under what statutes? No offense, but the quasi-legal stuff that you bring up -- usually in the context of tort liability -- is consistently and wildly off the mark. 

OTOH, "stabbed by an employee" makes perfect sense. 

BDL


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

We can hit this ball back and forth all day long, but what it seems to boil down to is preference: some of us think it's OK for a chef to scream and rant and treat people like crap, while others don't...I happen to fall into the latter category. We like to think of our selves as professionals, but how professional are we when we stamp our feet like little babies (and what kind of example are we setting). I don't care how good of a cook a person is, if he/she screams all the time they've lost my vote. I'm referring to the type that do this consistently, like GR, because I know this is the real world and our jobs are difficult and everyone loses their temper every now and then. But I really can't believe that a person that has these tantrums all the time is having any fun at all. I cook for a living because I love it...I don't want to be pissed off at work all the time.


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## renhoek (Jun 24, 2008)

I can't speak for other countries, but in Australia Ed's comments would be spot on because there is legislation that addresses workplace bullying. Ramsay's behaviour would, in theory, see him done many times over.

The key word is "in theory", because it is up to the person/s involved to lodge a complaint. Imagine what might happen to your life at work if you called out your bullying boss


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ahh, but I can speak for the US of A -- where we don't have "labor boards" in the sense that Ed seems to have meant. 

I can also speak for the UK to the extent that the real Gordon Ramsay ran his real restaurants, and whatever trouble his @$$holiness got him into, he seems to have got out of it without undue bother. In fact, he's been involved in two rather famous legal actions which have nothing to do with his treatment of employees. In the first, an English newspaper, the Evening Standard, reported that Ramsay faked bad conditions at one restaurant featured in Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares. Ramsay sued in the UK for Libel and won. In the second, he was sued in the US for Defamation by a restaurant which appeared in the American version of the same show and the case was tossed for lack of merit. If there were Labor Board Complaints or any other Causes of Action which stuck, they don't seem to be publicized. 

I'd love to read Oz's statutory scheme barring workplace bullying. Would you be so kind as to link me to a site? 

As one attorney to another, I find it hard to believe that if Oz has the anti-bullying legislation it doesn't have legislation to protect the employee from retribution (including dismissal) for seeking the law's protection. Even in the US, we do that much. While I can't speak for every US jurisdiction, it's pretty much universal in Labor statutes as well as civil law that an employer can't punish an employee for her efforts to enforce her rights. As a practical matter this usually means the employee receives significant compensation, including back pay, after employment is terminated. 

BDL


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

I think I remember hearing about something called osha and also something called a union.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

OSHA is "Occupational Safety and Health Administration" and has nothing to do with nasty bosses. They're the people who want you to put up the little _piso mojado_ signs.

Unions are somewhat limited in terms of what they can do, too. Moreover, only a small percentage of American kitchens are union; and in Florida (Chef Buchannan writes from Florida) -- a right to work state -- fewer still.

BDL


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## renhoek (Jun 24, 2008)

Sure, who wouldn't!  It depends what state you are in as to the piece(s) of legislation and also on the nature of the bullying as to whether a federal Act applies. Ramsay is looking at opening a restaurant in Melbourne, so I'll use Victoria as an example. 

The piece of state legislation that would cover Ramsay-esque behavior is the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2004 (a section deals with protecting the mental health of employees). Depending on the type of bullying, an employee may also have recourse under the Equal Opportunity Act 1995 (state law, even something as basic as repeatedly abusing a cook by calling him a "fat lazy bastard" could trigger this Act) and the Workplace Relations Act 1996 (federal law, unfair dismissal as a result of bullying). 

Grabbing a 120lb commis chefs by his neck and hurling him across the kitchen would also be actionable under criminal law (made for great viewing on Boiling Point, though ). 

Complaints would be heard by a commission ("labour board") or Magistrate's Court, depending on their nature.


Employees are protected from *unlawful* types of retribution. Workplace bullying is a pretty touchy area and there's alot of issues in play, such as:

1. Bullying claims that don't involve physical abuse are difficult to investigate;

2. The employer can still engage in legal forms of retribution ("So you think I bully you? Alright...the walk-in needs cleaning and the 130lb bags of flour need moving from here to there..."). 

3. Australian culture. Anyone who couldn't handle Ramsay's behaviour would be seen as soft....and you don't ever, ever "tell on people". Only sooks and women would cry to the law about how chef called them a nasty name


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## bombayben (Aug 23, 2007)

Amen to that!


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Here in Florida I have both read about and worked in places thet were sued by employees for all kinds of nonsense. Including but not limited to sexual harrassment, foul language, sueing the employer because he or she was hit by another employee you name it. In fact in one large country club they brought in a specialist speaker to address all of staff after they were sued and lost. Yes here in Florida they are fast to sue maybe because wages are low and the work place is dictated by employer , as it is a "right to work state". This means employer can tell you at the end of any given day after working for 20 years that your finished, no reason no explanation.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

So what you're saying is that you've heard that several employers were sued in civil court for sexual harassment, intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligent failure to supervise. At one of your workplaces, as a consequence of a lost suit, a speaker explained to the employees either (a) the employees had some rights and should feel free to make complaints if those rights were violated; and/or (b) that employees should not to engage in practices so offensive to other employees that they would result in liability to the employer. Notice, there's nothing in there about "the labor board." Labor board actions are limited to administrative law infractions, statutory breaches, and payroll disputes. 

What I was complaining about was not that there are never consequences for employer misconduct, but that your description was so inexact as to be meaningless. Imagine if you asked me for the recipe for "Hungarian Goulash," and I said, "First, you steal a chicken," and just left it at that. Well, actually that's slightly different because all true middle-European recipes begin poultry theft. Oh the heck with it, I was just cranky.

As to the last statement: Yes. "Right to work" means the employer has almost all the rights. The good thing though is that the employee doesn't have to give $1500 a year to a union so he can earn $5,000 more, have some job security and get another $3000 in benefits. At one time or another I've been a member of the Teamsters (Coca-Cola truck, piano mover); Automotive Machinist and Aerospace Engineers (think tank); SAG, EQUITY (bad actor); IATSE, NABET (other film and TV things, mostly gripping); and the ABA (lawyer) -- and never regretted any of them. 

You know, if I learned one thing important enough to pass on from all of the various jobs and careers I've had it's this: Pianos are heavy. 

BDL


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

Hey Bordelaise [sic],

You've mentioned all the various teamsters you've belonged to and made reference to being an attorney...do you or have you ever cooked for a living? Just wondering...it's a lot different than you see on TV.


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## cuisinier (Jun 28, 2008)

Oldschool1982,

Thanks for correcting me and knocking me down a few rungs...I deserve it. As I said earlier I was just wondering...and BDL, I apologize about the "different than TV" crack...didn't really mean anything by it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Old -- Thanks.

Cuisinier -- It was a valid question even if you asked it in a crummy way at first. About that, everyone screws up -- it's how you handle it that counts. Nice catch.

Yes, I've had some pro experience. Starting in the early seventies, while pursuing my graduate degree (first in math, but switched to philosophy), I cooked for two years at the Blue Fox in San Francisco, less than two years at Chez Panisse in Berkeley, cooked for a caterer who owned a Barbecue/Soul-Food place in Oakland called Willie Walker's, and started a small catering outfit in Los Angeles called Predominantly French. 

During my Bay Area years I also worked in the hospitality industry as a fill-in bartender at The Anchor Inn, and a full-time bouncer at The Anchor Inn, Jerry's Stop Sign, and Mandrake's. 

Since then, from time to time I've taught cooking classes. Mostly just for the heck of it or to satisfy so called "friends" who wouldn't stop nagging. Nag, nag, nag. 

To fill in a little: The Blue Fox was a very old fashioned brigade system. I started there as a commis and was promoted to saute.

Not long after I moved to Los Angeles I got a job as a "Studio Grip." However, work was irregular and sort of seasonal at first, so I started Predominantly French. I closed PF down after a few years because I was making so much more money as a grip, had started a family, etc., etc. 
In those days, Predominantly French was "catering." Now, you'd probably call it "personal cheffing." 

I'm semi-retired from law now and am currently working on a technique oriented cook-book. 

What's your experience? 

Old BDL


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## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

I wasn't trying to take ya down any rungs there cuisiner. Just speaking what little mind i have left. :beer:

We definitely all have feathers here and they do get ruffled from time to time but that wasn't the gist. 

Welcome to the forums and I look forward to talking to and hearing from you in the future


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## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Boar d laze, you sound like my husband. He's a PhD with all of his degrees in philosophy and is now in academics. Yet the list of things he's done over the years for extra income is kinda crazy. Besides the odd jobs like working the overnight shift in a ketchup factory, running a drive in movie projector and harvesting asparagus, he has wrestled alligators, rode the rodeo and ran a resort in the Everglades.

My favorite story is when he was at LaSalle University in the mid 1960's he answered an add in the paper for a job that paid $50 for a day's work, a significant sum for the time. Turns out an up and coming boxer was looking for a sparring partner. My husband was a big strong college football player so he figured it wouldn't be a problem. The boxer? A guy named Joe Frazier. He laughs now when he describes the experience. He says it is the only time he has ever earned $50 in thirty seconds and his last thought before losing consciousness was "I didn't think a wall of bricks could move that fast."

But what he has done for the vast majority of his adult life actually might shed a little light on the current discussion on Chef Ramsey's "management strategies" . While my dear husband's career as an athlete didn't work out thanks to some pretty yucky injuries , he has always been in athletics, in administration and coaching on the collegiate level. He's worked off and on with the Bowden family almost as long as I've been alive. We met when he was an Assistant Athletic Director at Auburn University. War Eagle!
His current position is in the field of Sports Academics and his institution works closely with the US and International Olympic committees as well as the NFL and other professional sports organizations. 

I bounced my theories on Ramsey off of my dear one and in his professional opinion he agreed. We all know that Ramsey is a great chef and business man, but do we forget that this career path was second to playing professional soccer? 
The man, for how ever brief a time, played where the air is rare for athletes. Now we in the US don't get all hot and bothered over soccer but the rest of the world does. When Ramsey rants, I see pure coach. That is how the majority of big time coaches whip their teams into line. I'm sure that the other notorious chef taught him a few things as well, but I'm thinking he picked up the habits on a football (what the rest of the world calls soccer) field.
He is such a typical example of a coach that anything with Gordon Ramsey is the only cooking show my husband is willing to watch with me. My dh has even taken to pointing out how some of what Ramsey is doing is classic and proven coaching techniques. So its no wonder the man inspires loyalty. That is what coaches do.


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## bazza (Apr 2, 2007)

Jonah, you have absolutely nailed it there. 

The problem with 'reality TV' is that it contains no...er, well 'reality' really. :lol:


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Chef Ramsey is one of those public figures that seems to inspire the amateur psychologist in us all. Bully, failed jock bitter at how that turned out and angry at the world, passionate perfectionist, dedicated father and husband, electra complex with MPW subbing for Daddy, and on and on. You'll never get the measure of a man from from controlled, edited and, yes, scripted television. Its a mug's game to try. 

As for the potty mouth thing, well, I have one too. Not proud, not ashamed, its the vernacular. Most people don't find this upsetting or offensive because they understand that I might as well be saying "Boy Howdy" or "Great Ceasar's Ghost" (actually, I've got to make a point of using that more) for all the weight behind those words.

As for H's Kitchen vs. Top Chef:

TC certainly seems to have an air of respectability about it, mainly due to the caliber of the contestants. That said I find a few things really grating about the show. Firstly the shear amount of product placement is mind boggling. Its the TV (or film) equivalent of rim garnishing with parsley (curly). Crash, cheap, ugly and pandering.

The tone of the program also seems so...middle management. Its very cold and aloof. Some call it respectful. I guess so, but only in the way that getting fired from a job by a nameless HR official who you've just met is.

Finally, the stunt challenge thing. H's Kitchen will have amateurs trying to do something basic like breaking down chickens (badly). Top Chef features accomplished cooks using product from vending machines. As an intellectual exercise, fine. But really its like watching an olympic track team have to run in clown shoes. In the dark.

At any rate I'll retreat to the "this sort of conversation is healthy and helps to raise issues to the public that blah, blah, blah" type of post-script. If Ramsey is to have a lasting negative impact on the food world I fear it might be this: the Fried Egg garnish. I mean, in a couple of years are quail eggs going to be the new foam?

--Al


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

I believe Ramsay's had fried quail eggs on his scallops every since the first season, along with Wellingtons, fish, scallops, risotto, and some sort of lobster spaghetti dish. If anybody is to copy they should've done it long ago .


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## ras1187 (Oct 3, 2006)

I don't think he should change the menu until he has a crew capable of doing it right


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm not just talking about the show's menu with quail egg thing. Check out his cookbooks and various demos I've seen. 

--Al


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## bundens (Jul 5, 2008)

agree, hands down

I have a feeling it is more to do with ratings...
What people fail to realize, whether they aspire to be him or are just watching that lame show is that trying to run a kitchen successfully like that is just not feasible. When under pressure the job can be stressful enough and the last thing a cook wants is some "satan" spawn yelling at the top of their lungs telling them how inadequate they are performing.

sadly, i have heard of some cooks working under GR type conditions. 
and hats off to anybody who does.


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## blythe (Jul 5, 2008)

Let me begin by saying....I am not a professional chef. However, I did work in a restaurant kitchen (expediting,serving) to put myself through college. One time, a sous chef held a knife to my neck because I relayed a request from a customer who wanted something special that was not on the menu. Nothing was ever done about this incident. Another time, a cook who drained a bottle of scotch each day at work ,threatened to kill me when I did not provide him an answer fast enough. These incidents, as well as many others, convinced me that the world of professional cooking was not for me. I suspect that Gordon Ramsay (who, lets face it, is rather rarefied in his talents and accomplishments) is showing the viewing audience that working in a prof. kitchen is not for wimps but instead, is only for those with exceptionally thick skins and stamina for enduring criticism, abuse, lack of appreciation, sociopathic co-workers, long hours and slave labor. While some of his antics are undoubtedly exaggerated for the benefits of viewers, I'm sure he did not reach his level of accomplishment by timidly abiding by Miss Manner's dictates. This being said, I have met mild mannered, soft spoken chefs... who ran very successful kitchens without resorting to screaming and yelling. But the stereotype of the temperamental chef does have its roots in reality; they do exist. And I have rarely seen a work environment more conducive to abuse by bullying than a hot , understaffed, isolated kitchen. Maybe things have changed (this was over ten years ago) ......


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## girlcook (Jul 10, 2015)

Gordon Ramsay haters- C'MON he has never kicked anyone's ass that never deserved it. He was and presently is one of the best Chefs in the world. He is humble enough to learn from any source he can. Yeah hes not a softy all the time but some people are just morons! Im a retired LAPD officer who pretty much talked my way into the kitchen a few years ago. I dont care how they talk to me I just want to learn. Im a female over 50 and not thin skinned. But thats just me. I dont have an ego ..and thats the only way you will progress by watching and asking questions...I learned that from GR,,ok im done venting


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Lol, who are you venting to, this thread is 8 years old. 

Gordon is a great chef though.


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## girlcook (Jul 10, 2015)

lol   I didnt check the date ..I do feel better though haha


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## tomnyc (Mar 9, 2012)

I couldn't read the letter because the link wasn't working; but I could read the discussion thread.

Most of the responders are so touchy-feely it warms my heart.   Not. 

I don't know how old everyone in this discussion is, but I suspect most are young.   Young people nowadays expect to be coddled and protected from all sorts of discomfort.  And they have been encouraged and supported in that regard by overprotective parenting and government. 

When I came up in the restaurant business, chefs were tough and demanded things to be done their way.

Gordon Ramsey in Hell's Kitchen is over the top of course, but that's show business.     I watched very little TV, but I considered Hell's Kitchen one of the best shows.     I think that's because I worked in kitchens,  and it's also a function of my personality.    I can understand civilians not getting it.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I just wish he was more consistent. I've heard and seen him crucify people over the use of truffle oil. Then on HK he tells one of the cooks to put more truffle oil on the fries. And in Kitchen Knightmares he crucified folks for not serving real chips with fish & chips... But at GR Pub in Laa Vegas he serves fries with his own fish & chips. And not to mention the bland mash on the shepards pie. GR Steak and BurGR are much more true to his standards. He's a great chef and a great businessman who has a great reputation and empire but...


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

BrianShaw said:


> I just wish he was more consistent. I've heard and seen him crucify people over the use of truffle oil. Then on HK he tells one of the cooks to put more truffle oil on the fries. And in Kitchen Knightmares he crucified folks for not serving real chips with fish & chips... But at GR Pub in Laa Vegas he serves fries with his own fish & chips. And not to mention the bland mash on the shepards pie. GR Steak and BurGR are much more true to his standards. He's a great chef and a great businessman who has a great reputation and empire but...


Consistency is a real wrench for chefs isn't it? I feel sorry for chefs who change their mind on something because then they are automatically labeled inconsistent. I once saw an episode of Jamie Oliver's "Jamie at Home" which was a show about seasonal cooking and he was making a mushroom dish. He advised to avoid white button mushrooms because they lack flavor of other mushrooms. But then on an episode of 15min meals he used white button mushrooms. One show was geared towards food snobs and the other geared at people who don't cook. Who knows what his real stance on white button mushrooms are.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Yup. The issue is exaggerated when an extreme position or outrageous reaction accompanies an opinion. Truffle oil and white button mushrooms have a time and place. So do real truffles and chanterelles. If only that was how the opinion was phrased, but that wouldn't make an interesting tv show I suppose.


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

Whoa talk about a blast from the past!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

still relevant after all these years. (A phrase I'm trying to sell to Paul Simon for use as a song title)


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

TomNYC said:


> I don't know how old everyone in this discussion is, but I suspect most are young. Young people nowadays expect to be coddled and protected from all sorts of discomfort. And they have been encouraged and supported in that regard by overprotective parenting and government.


Not sure why you had to include this in your comment.

I've worked in places where everybody looks like they have a dark cloud hanging over their head. Nobody smiles, there is no real interaction. Every body is confrontational, arrogant, self important, and passive aggressive. It instigates fear. This came from the boss, who was like G Ramsay is on his stupid reality shows. It sells, but it also excuses and enables other bullies from engaging in similar behavior. People who have no right to chop everyone around them at the knees so they can appear taller.

But the fact that commercial kitchens (or any other workplace) should allow abuse simply because its the way they did it in the old days and people are wimps, just propagates bullying and a bad working environment. The result is poor performance and instigates bad attitudes in most cases. Others seem to think berating and humiliating someone in front of their peers for a simple mistake is supposed to be motivational. People who defend this behavior are usually bullies themselves, and don't have any other way to elevate themselves over everyone else. It makes them feel stronger and more important. They find it amusing. In G Ramsay's case, at least he has the chops. They say Miles Davis was an a hole, and Mingus was known to punch people for being late to rehearsal. Sure, they are giants in jazz, but it doesn't excuse abusive behavior. I don't disagree that parents can be overprotective, but the other extreme isn't any good either. I'd keep the government thing out of it, though.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

jake t buds said:


> Not sure why you had to include this in your comment.
> 
> I've worked in places where everybody looks like they have a dark cloud hanging over their head. Nobody smiles, there is no real interaction. Every body is confrontational, arrogant, self important, and passive aggressive. It instigates fear. This came from the boss, who was like G Ramsay is on his stupid reality shows. It sells, but it also excuses and enables other bullies from engaging in similar behavior. People who have no right to chop everyone around them at the knees so they can appear taller.
> 
> But the fact that commercial kitchens (or any other workplace) should allow abuse simply because its the way they did it in the old days and people are wimps, just propagates bullying and a bad working environment. The result is poor performance and instigates bad attitudes in most cases. Others seem to think berating and humiliating someone in front of their peers for a simple mistake is supposed to be motivational. People who defend this behavior are usually bullies themselves, and don't have any other way to elevate themselves over everyone else. It makes them feel stronger and more important. They find it amusing. In G Ramsay's case, at least he has the chops. They say Miles Davis was an a hole, and Mingus was known to punch people for being late to rehearsal. Sure, they are giants in jazz, but it doesn't excuse abusive behavior. I don't disagree that parents can be overprotective, but the other extreme isn't any good either. I'd keep the government thing out of it, though.


I agree completely. In this day and age, there is no excuse for bullying or harassing behavior, in any environment, period. I truly feel like that kind of behavior is one of the things that is holding this industry (as a whole) back. I've worked for chefs like that in the past--I really try my hardest to not model myself on that example. I don't want my cooks coming to work with pits in their stomach, nervous and afraid. I'd rather they were positive, motivated and willing to give effort. There is a difference between having expectations, standards and commitment and being a bully who abuses people to get what they want.

This whole notion of "how it was done back then" doesn't hold water for me either. Just because people didn't say anything "back in the day" doesn't mean that people's feeling weren't hurt, or their psyche wasn't damaged. It means they were trained to suck it down and not say anything about it, for risk of further abuse. In honesty, it is similar to child or spousal abuse in that way (don't poke the bear), and also (like spousal and child abuse) perpetuates the cycle. In my opinion, it takes even more COURAGE and fortitude to stand up to this kind of bullying and stop it in it's tracks than it does to just suck it up and go on with it. So, in a way, the "young" people are MORE courageous than the "older" people, because they have the stones to stand up to bullies and try and stop it. So there.

One comfort I take is that I really think this kind of behavior is (slowly) being phased out. Not saying it doesn't exist, not saying it won't exist in the future, but as an aggregate I think the industry is trending towards more positive, professional atmospheres.


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## hungrychef (Feb 1, 2015)

I tried to read your article but I can not have access to it, it seems to have disappeared. Would you kindly send it to me via private message. I completely agree with you and feel the same way. Thank you for your post.

Best regards


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