# Please critique My Restaurant Idea, Menu, Example Recipes



## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

This is what I want to open one day. I currently work as a line cook and working on this controls my obsessiveness.

I do not want to provide details of menu items on the menu, I expect my serves to know exactly what is in each dish and provide details upon request.

Daily I will offer two specials. A seafood dish Fresh!, and a individual casserole.

Examples are Halibut topped with super lump crabmeat with a brown butter sauce. Sell the fish!

Also, a Lobster Mac and cheese casserole or a shepard's pie.

Check out the menu and a appetizer and entree recipe and let me know what you think.

Eventually I'll write a lunch menu,...




  








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Bruschetta:

Tomato, Large4.00eaBasil1.00buOlive Oil, Extra Virgin6.00flozGarlic Cloves5.00eaVinegar, Balsamic1.00ptShallots2.00eaSalt, Kosher1.00TBaguette, French1.00eaButter, Salted0.25CPecorino Cheese3.00T


Reduce balsamic vinegar to light nappe
De core and Small Dice ( ¼ in) tomatoes
Blend ½ basil with ½ evoo and bring to boil
Chiffanade remaining basil
Roast garlic with remaining evoo and blend
Brunoise shallots
Slice baguette (1/3 in)
Melt butter
Toast baguette slices with melted butter brushed
Combine diced tomatoes, ciffanade basil, evoo with garlic and basil, brunioise shallots, and salt

Service:
Broil to hot French baguette, lay out on hot plate, top with tomato mix, glaze with lines of balsamic glaze, grate pecorino cheese: sell

Pork Chop

French Cut Pork Chop12.00eaApples, Gala12.00eaBleu Cheese Crumbles1.00ptBlackberries1.00ptSugar0.50CBlended Oil6.00flozSalt, Kosher3.00flozPepper, Black1.00flozRice, Medium Grain4.00cSazon Pork2.00pkChicken Boullion2.00pkHerbs de Provence2.00THaricot Verts3.00#Butter0.50#

Peel, Medium Dice Apples, Saute on high heat in Melted Butter until golden brown, Take off heat and add in bleu cheese crumbles, toss and let cool.
Season pork chops with oil, s+p. Grill burn marks into both sides of pork chop, not cooking through. Let cool
Butterfly pork chops and fill with apple cheese mixture
Boil 2 parts rice to one part water, sazon, boullion, and herbs de provence for 16 min. hold for service
Blend blackberries with 2oz water, strain through chinois, add sugar, bring to a simmer, hold for service
Steam Haricot verts to al dente and let cool
Service: Put pork chop in convection oven at 385 for 15 minutes, sauté haricot verts in butter.
Plating. 4 oz ramakin of rice turned at 10 o clock, 4 oz serving of haricot verts diaganol at 2 o clock
Pork chop laid on top bone out, sauce over bottom half of pork chop.
Sell              
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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

What is the reasoning behind not providing full details of the dish?

Menu looks fine, could be a hit depending on where you are and who you are cooking for, what your prices are, etc. 

I would leave off the balsamic glaze though, shit was over like 10+ years ago.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I wouldn't be attracted in either a bar or restaurant. Too much "mix and match" within each category and too much confusion with the "fluff" words. I'm not drawn into the menu in a good way. If better focused with better descriptions, maybe. But I got stuck on the cheesesteak spring rolls and balsamic drizzle - gag. And totally distracted by the Mexico City Ceaser salad. I believe Ceaser Salad is from Tijuana. Good luck with your project!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh, and it intending to be too critical, but are you sure about the 2 parts rice to 1 part water ratio for medium grain rice?


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey Chefslug, I'm thinking your in upper state NY, New England or over the boarder in Canada. There's nothing bad about the menu but I do see ideas of the past. I remember when everyone had Shrimp cocktail on the menu. I haven't seen Veal Marsala on the menu in years, I had it on mine in the 80's. I see you also have pirogues on the menu that would show a polish oriented area. I also see "Maple" as the name meaning that maple syrup may be big in that area. If Maple is big in that area then maybe a Maple glazed double cut pork chop or a maple glazed cedar plank salmon. Chefs have a way of wanting to always make it their own ideas of what goes on menus. We need to think we know it all and are the best judge of what our customers like. I really don't have any problem with taking any and all of someone else's ideas and methods of cooking and making it my own. Look on Yelp at Mustards cafe in Napa Valley they have a pork chop that is second to none. Free range is also another item on everyones menu. Grass fed is the old Pasture raised that lets you throw a few more bucks on the item and makes everyone feel like their saving the world. Give each item on your menu a lot of thought on how the dish, when served to the customer, will make them say "WOW"!!!!! .......Like I said there's nothing wrong with your menu, you know your area best. I commend you for putting the menu out there to poke at it. A good chef will take constructive comments so as to make their restaurant the best..........ChefBill


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Would you yourself be drawn in by this menu if you saw it on the restaurant website?

Does it reflect the style of the restaurant?  Is it a bar, fine dining, bistro?  I can't tell.

What kind of pricing are we talking about here?  Does it say cheap, medium, very expensive?  (see point above)

What is the style of the food?  Am I intrigued with the whole thing or are there just one or two things which pop out and the others just blah?


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## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

ok balsamic glaze is off the bruschetta

no descriptions on the items was intended to create a back in forth between server and customer

cheesesteak spring rolls are a staple of upscale dining in philadelphia nj shore region

brian shaw thanks for pointing out the type it's two parts water one part rice

switching over the pecan salmon from honey coated to maple syrup coated, and maple dijon dressing

upscale casual restaurant experience focus on customers and quality medium to medium high price point

won't know til i fill out the costing sheets though.

kuan i decided to add descriptions based on views on a website, they will want to know ingredients before entering


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Having no descriptions on the menu might lead to a lot of problems. You are depending on your guests to ask questions. It's all well and good to want to try and facilitate dialogue between servers and customers, but you are assuming that the guests will ask the appropriate questions. You'll also have allergies, "allergies," food preferences, etc to deal with. Again, all dependent upon guests asking questions. 

There are other ways to have dialogue with customers while still giving them the info they need/want to order food. 

You are taking a concept reserved for captain/backwaiter/michelin restaurant and forcing into a style of dining that doesn't need nor warrant that type of stuff. Eleven Madison Park does it because they are using exotic ingredients, and also the server explains each course as it is presented, making the need for over description null. 

I'm also presuming that you won't be using ingredients that most customers haven't heard of (I mean, if you are putting crosnes or bottarga on your philly cheesesteak egg rolls, I stand corrected). But I'm assuming that 99% of the things you are using are ubiquitous and probably standard, so again, why the secret?

There is a difference between being minimalist for artistic sake (again, like at EMP or Per Se) and being pretentious and trying to force some ideal into a format where it doesn't belong. 

______

Glad you are going to take the balsamic glaze off. Good decision. 

If everyone already does Philly Cheesesteak Rolls, why are you? What can you do to be different? Better?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

ChefSlug said:


> no descriptions on the items was intended to create a back in forth between server and customer


I know I'm not alone ... as a customer I don't want to have to ask too many questions, nor am I comfortable having to have too much discussion with the server. Too many times I feel like I'm getting a telemarketer-style sales pitch when most of the menu/price information is blabber from a server. I want to understand a menu by reading it, save a few questions about preference/allergies, and I certainly don't want a server to be intruding too much on my dining time, which is how I feel when I spend more time talking to a server trying to order than talking to my wife. I HATE trying to have a discussion about weird menu items or outrageous prices with a server being the third wheel in the conversation. Too much intrusion and too much pressure. Menus that leave too much to the imagination are at the type of restaurants that I glance a menu and move on to another place, and in one situation just apologized and left after being seated.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Not to mention slow service if the waiter has to spend 10 minutes at a table answering questions and describing everything while taking the order....


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

... and if I can make one more comment. Please don't think of me as a jerk. But one of my dislikes of the menu is the pretention and errors. Most folks knows what a Waldorf Salad is (and it was originally from the Waldorf Hotel, not Waldorf Astoria... which didn't exist back in those days() but why "blue" instead of "blue cheese"?  Similar with Caesar Salad - technically it is originally from Tijuana but what does that matter? If I see company or places of origin, I'd rather they be related to the food product I'm about to eat, not the origin of the recipe.


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## onlinealterego (Apr 18, 2015)

You might want to think about offering one soup always on the menu, and have the second soup be soup of the day or seasonal. It would be a way of making the menu more seasonal. People always like asparagus soup in spring, butternut squash in the fall, French onion in winter. Or you could open with the two soups you list and see which is the better seller, and replace the one that sells less well with a seasonal or soup of the day option. Personally, I was drawn to the seafood bisque as one of the menu options that most interested me. 

I like your idea of a daily seafood special and daily casserole. 

I tend to agree with the others about having more info on the menu. Also I think I'd just say "garden salad." Garden spring salad in October would seem a bit odd. 

If it's veal marsala you're intending, there's a typo (missing r). Reading "masala" I assumed it was an Indian fusion treatment which sounded interesting but puzzling with (a) veal and (b) egg noodles. 

The menu strikes me as a bit light on vegetarian options (and nothing vegan, as far as I can tell, not even the bruschetta) which may not be a problem depending on your location and intended market. You're going to need killer tomatoes for the bruschetta, otherwise they're just sad. Also, I think I'd leave off "baguette". People know what crostini are and baguette just confuses the issue. Are we in France or Italy? 

The vegetarian entree you do have is an interesting choice and much more appealing than the usual default pasta primavera! Braised red cabbage would be a good accompaniment and add color. BTW, I've usually seen it spelled pirogi, but that may just be a regional thing, although "pirogue" seems to be a kind of boat (at least according to google!) 

Best of luck with your venture!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Dated or not man, I like balsamic glaze on my bruschetta!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif


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## laurenlulu (Sep 9, 2012)

Or instead of bruschetta do a take on it like melted cheese in crostini and top with shredded buffalo chicken or bacon, shredded lettuce and small diced tomato


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## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

Updated the Menu with a few additions and changes, next revision i'll include descriptions...




  








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## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Your food cost is very high.  These days we do more with less.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

My head spins looking at these menus you are all over the place, am I at TGI McFunsters or at some time warp wannabe maybe fine dining????? I don't want to have to spend ten minutes with a server explaining the menu to me. I'm more of a visual guy, you know like with playboy, I want to see the descriptions not hear about them.

This looks like something that I had to do as a practical in school. Create a fictional restaurant along with menu and food costs. When you have a fictional restaurant, you only need fictional money and customers, there is nothing to loose. If you are serious about opening something one day you seriously need to do some homework or you will flush everything that was put into it within the first year.

It's ok to dream, Sharpen your pencil, learn what's really going on in food today, read menus, eat out, take a good hard look at what it is that you actually want, is it pizza, hoagie place, fine dining, bar & grill, Italian?

You proposed the same question to the group a few years ago, does not look like you have progressed much since then.

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/77251/menu-feedback I could get most of this at any corporate happy hour or chain.

Please do not copy any menus created here for professional gain without contacting posters. I got a laugh out of this!


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Not to sound overly critical, as I see a few items on your menu that I find interesting, but for the most part, this menu reads like it came from 25-30 years ago.  If you are going to go old-school then it needs to be old school all the way or go more contemporary with just a bit of old school splash.  Right now the menu is all over the place.  As a chef I read this menu, and my immediate thought is this is the menu of a chef that has had the same menu for years and years, and now, because of dwindling clientele is trying to do some updates to the menu but is in over his head. The look of the menu itself, with its font and colors, screams out dated (read old and tired).

I do see some really good flavor combinations in the menu, but I just think that they need to be presented slightly differently to appeal to modern tastes.  Update the wording and streamline some of the items.  Take for example your Santa Fe Grilled Chicken Breast.  It sounds like something I'd find on a menu at Holiday Inn.  Update it to:

Southwestern Chicken Breast

Marinated with Three Chiles then Grilled and served with Pico de Gallo and Black Beans and Rice


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Its better than the first one you posted, and I like that you added descriptions. 

I think it is WAY to big though, especially for a 60 seater. Your kitchen won't be very big, and your cooks (what, 2? 3? Including you, or not?) will be hard pressed to keep up. I think you could easily trim it down about 40%, if not more. With a menu that big, you are gonna be buying a LOT of food. Not to mention prepping and storing it too. 

Also, be wary of saying things like "Tijuana" Caesar Salad. Does this imply that you are going to be beholden to the original Caesar, prepared tableside sans anchovies, etc? Or are you doing the ubiquitous modern version. Just something to think about, but it might be adding un-needed expectations. 

Maybe say "pastured" instead of free range on the beef. Free range sounds odd to me, not even sure why. At least in the context of beef.

It is very old school. Not anything wrong with that, per se, but you might have trouble attracting a younger clientele. Who knows.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

With respect and not to bust your bubble....As a consultant, you lost me at "I'm a line cook and want to open a restuarant" Do you have any other culinary skills other than being a line cook putting dishes you have cooked in the past on a piece of paper? Do you have any management skills? Do you understand what it takes just to open a restaurant? You could have the most awesome, unique menu in the world, but if you don't understand what it takes to have the restaurant to showcase that menu..well I think you know where I'm going with this. 

I ask a lot of people if they know what a resume is. Of course I get the professional definitions 5 miles long blah blah blah....It's simple, A resume is "Screwing up at someone elses expense!!" LOL. Move beyond the line cook, get into a Jr. Sous chef position and try your menu out as someone else's expense. Take a few business course and understand how you'll keep that dream of yours up an running.

As far as critiquing your menu....from the perspective of a chef consultant, I'd tear it apart on so many levels. but if you want an honest opinion, I'd be happy to tell you in Private. It's a dream of yours, I commend you for having that dream, but you need to deal with the reality of the world. This business has a bazillion critics and Foodies who are heartless when it comes to peoples dreams. You need someone to set you on the right course, not a bunch of folks making you feel good telling you all the things you want to hear. Just sayin'


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

As to descriptions, descriptions sell food, whether they are printed or spoken, they are the most important sales tool any chef has, and printed descriptions can share a lot more information, more consistently than servers. 

Great servers will guide guests where you want them to go, and add a lot of value to the experience, but if they are stuck at each table explaining every item on the menu, they aren't selling drinks, greeting new guests, clearing plates, filling waters, picking up orders when they're ready, or helping out other servers. 

All that means you need more servers to serve less people and you have to pay them more to do it. It also means the ordering process will be greatly slowed and you'll turn tables slower which limits sales and requires higher prices to overcome, making you less competitive.

Menu descriptions are very important.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

There was a period of time, in the late 90's and beyond where it was trendy for some places to not give any descriptions at all. Thus menus read:

Tuna _Wasabi_

Ribeye _Pommes Frites_

Swordfish _White Beans_

As a guest I hated that trend. I want to know what I am getting on my plate. I don't need every item put in the description but I want a good idea of what I am going to get. As a server I hated it even more as I had to spend way too much time at the table describing the items and answering questions. It took way too long and slowed down my service.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Pretty soon they will get rid of servers and have iPads at every table that will give you a visual and audio description of everything and you'll order right from the iPad. There will be a bunch of runners running around and they will be dubbed Gophers...lol........


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Boy, I have far too many questions before I can offer much in the way of a constructive critique. A few thoughts though, I would probably add a textural note such as walnuts to the stuffing for the pork chop.

While I am on the subject of walnuts, they would probably work better than pecans on the salmon. Maple syrup is sweet and so are pecans. Walnuts (while sweet as well) are able to provide an astringent counterpoint to the maple syrup due to the tannins present in them. As to the sauce, including maple syrup in it, after using it to coat the salmon, seems like a bit of overkill on the flavor and sweetness factor. A madiera whole grain mustard sauce would work well. I suggest whole grain as opposed to the dijon because of the textural aspect. Nothing wrong with garlic mashed potatoes, but sweet potatoes would take the dish up a notch in flavor pairing

On the veal dish, masala is an East Indian spice mix, I assume you mean marsala wine. Also along these lines, there is no i in mignon, not trying to be a wise guy, but small things matter when writing a menu.

Portobello mushrooms have a real earthy and meaty flavor profile and to my mind would overwhelm the crab.

The Santa Fe chicken has an abundance of starch...refried beans, black beans, corn, and rice are all starchy in content.

That is about all of my input for now, I could possibly give more with more menu descriptions.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

> On the veal dish, masala is an East Indian spice mix, I assume you mean marsala wine. Also along these lines, there is no i in mignon, not trying to be a wise guy, but small things matter when writing a menu.


Good catch! I totally missed that!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Justa Chef said:


> Pretty soon they will get rid of servers and have iPads at every table that will give you a visual and audio description of everything and you'll order right from the iPad. There will be a bunch of runners running around and they will be dubbed Gophers...lol........


@Justa Chef I have to agree and chuckle at your statement. I think the Gophers will also have back Gophers called Tenders who will parade the animals. tanks, and a cubicle gardens down the isle, past you for your viewing pleasure. Not to see what piece of each you might be getting. No that's time consuming, but to see what the ingredients of your' meal shake' or 'meal pill ' are made out of. Society is becoming so fast and furious, convenience is the answer. Instead of slowing down and having someone suprise you with a good meal, it more convenient to go fast food, junk, pizza, shakes, bars, etc. food delivered to your home, portioned with directions, pre-made meals delivered, etc.

I'm hanging in the old fashioned way, but never 100% satisfied when I dine out. I only pray the Millennials will bring this industry back to it's senses./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

You should center justify.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

lol...soon the old fashioned love we have will only be served at Baseball games at that pace if you understand where I'm coming from...LOL


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Garam Masala... and just like with Advieh, Baharat, Tuscan, Creole or any spice mix, they all differ as to how a region or family put them together....


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

I see a lack of cohesiveness in the menu. There are a lot of old school dishes on there, and there's nothing wrong with that, depending on your clientele and location. For instance, people tend to pick on shrimp cocktail as being out of date. But the fact is, people like them. Applying the "old school" logic, we could say hamburgers are out dated and should be dumped. The lack of direction on the menu troubles me as I see it as indecisiveness on what you want your restaurant to be. You need to decide what you want it to be, and then be it the best you can. If you want old school classic, fine. If you want cutting edge fusion, fine, but you can't be all things to all people or you wind up being nothing to anybody. Why do you want to call it Maple? The reason you chose that name should give your direction for how your menu should reflect the name. I haven't seen Waldorf salad on a menu in years. Now it's getting popular again/ Younger people don't remember it, but they like it and it's new to them. Older people like it because it's something they remember. Kind of like classic rock, it crosses the generations. There has been good advice given by a lot of people here. My two cents is to firm idea in your head of what you want the restaurant to be. If you don't, you'll end up fumbling around with menu changes and confused customers.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Is your rib eye boneless, lip on lip off?  A 14 ounce steak is rather large out side a steak house.  A petite portion could be beneficial. A nine ounce filet is also very large with a large food cost.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Totally agree and greyeagle is just touching upon the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, it seems like you just put a bunch of entrees you've cooked in the past, on a piece of paper....


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## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

Because it was asked...

My qualifications are as follows. AAS Culinary Arts from Culinary Institute of America

Currently in my last semester of BA Business Administration Rutgers

2 years waiting tables

1 year bakers assistant

6 years line cook

1 year sous chef

currently studying fine dining as a line cook

but sincerely... thank you very much for telling me to go work under joe buck at his 60 seater restaurant managing some high school kid

as for the menu. Yes you pointed out I missed a R in Marsala thanks

The restaurant is called Maple..... Maple Salmon is the signature dish, do expect me to take critique on it.

If you've never heard of a Portobella stuffed with Crab, put a for sale sign on your rock and move into a city.

Desserts I don't mess with, separate menu done by a pastry chef.

America is the land of fusion. French bread, american twist on bruschetta, phenomenal toast a baguette crustini and toast a Italian loaf crustini close your eyes and tell me which is Italian.

If your still posting about it needing descriptions you need a scroll mouse. Read the entire thread.

Appreciate the thought of a children menu, will take that into consideration deeply


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Those cudentials and you're a line cook? Everything everyone says here are great observations and a lot of great advice. I learned a long time ago, to be humble and say thank you. I could tear your menu apart on so many levels based on my 40 years in the business. At my age, I have learned that culinary school is nothing but a crash course in what to expect in the real world and if you can't preform out here in the real world you can wipe you ass with your degree.

    Personally, I'd expect a lot more out of a menu from someone with a CIA degree and I'd bet if there was a CIA instructor on this board he'd back me up.....BTW is it Crustini or Crostini? Is paying attention to detail a strong point of yours? Oh and unless you're in an operation that can support a 60k a year pastry chef...well let's just say there is a lot of great product out there you can bring in at a fraction of the cost of the salary of the Pastry chef. Incidentally, what are u using for crabmeat in you Stuffed Portabella Mushrooms? Just askin'


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

"well let's just say there is a lot of great product out there you can bring in at a fraction of the cost of the salary of the Pastry chef"

Justa Chef

Are you thinking frozen brownies off the Sysco truck, maybe with some cool whip?  I thought we were talking fine dining on this thread. In most parts of the country 60K for a pastry chef is a fantasy.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

ChefSlug said:


> Because it was asked...
> 
> My qualifications are as follows. AAS Culinary Arts from Culinary Institute of America
> 
> ...


Don't feel like you have to justify your credentials to anyone on this board. You seem like you have a solid foundation, and I'm impressed that you seem to have taken a step back to jump into fine dining and learn the ropes there. It's a different animal than a typical turn and burn place, so kudos.

Use whatever bread you want, no one really cares. They are just going to care if it tastes good.

I would rethink your pastry policy though. Pastry chefs are expensive, especially for a small restaurant, so you might want to consider some options there.

It's good to put yourself out there by posting this...I would probably never post one of my menus here. Everyone on the internet has a strong opinion.

Getting some early criticism can help drive focus for what you want to achieve. Better to hear it here then on Yelp or TripAdvisor someday.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> "well let's just say there is a lot of great product out there you can bring in at a fraction of the cost of the salary of the Pastry chef"
> 
> Justa Chef
> 
> Are you thinking frozen brownies off the Sysco truck, maybe with some cool whip? I thought we were talking fine dining on this thread. In most parts of the country 60K for a pastry chef is a fantasy.


I thought we were talking "Critiquing a menu"....I certainly don't see a "Fine Dining" menu here......No..you can make brownies just fine...as far as Sysco goes...have you seen the Dessert product line they have...just a little bit more than frozen brownies. Here in The Northeast...pastry chefs make upwards of 75k in the bigger hotels and functions halls. I don't know what the going rate is elsewhere in the US, all's I know is that smaller operations have pretty much done away with Pastry Chefs and pay their line cook better


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

ChefSlug said:


> If you've never heard of a Portobella stuffed with Crab, put a for sale sign on your rock and move into a city.


You asked for opinions then get aggro when people post them. I have heard of it. I have heard of a lot of things I don't agree with. portobella stuffed with crab is one of them, for the reasons that I stated.


> The restaurant is called Maple..... Maple Salmon is the signature dish, do expect me to take critique on it.


Yes because you posted it in a thread asking for critiques. Do you think customers will critique it?


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> Everything everyone says here are great observations and a lot of great advice. I learned a long time ago, to be humble and say thank you. I could tear your menu apart on so many levels based on my 40 years in the business.


Strongly agree, with this. I cretainly don't have the creds that chefslug has (I am a professional mech. engineer) but if a consulting chef with a shit ton of experience wants to help, you, STHU be humble and be grateful he/she isn't charging you an armcand a leg to improve your restaurant and save you *money,* time, and headaches

my 2 cents


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Your menu does not require a pastry chef.  It requires a good saucier and a good setup on the garde side.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Justa Chef said:


> I thought we were talking "Critiquing a menu"....I certainly don't see a "Fine Dining" menu here......No..you can make brownies just fine...as far as Sysco goes...have you seen the Dessert product line they have...just a little bit more than frozen brownies. Here in The Northeast...pastry chefs make upwards of 75k in the bigger hotels and functions halls. I don't know what the going rate is elsewhere in the US, all's I know is that smaller operations have pretty much done away with Pastry Chefs and pay their line cook better


I have seen Sysco's desserts however you want to classify them they are still factory produced and off the back of a purveyors truck. Check the ingredients list on that frozen package. Why would a small operator pay the same as a large hotel? What do you think of local and fresh?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

As i mentioned, there are so many great products out there that the average patron can't tell the difference. I spend a lot of time at food shows checking things out. As I also mentioned, small operations can't afford a pastry chef and are dependent on purveyors for there product and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure you get a lot of product of the back of a truck that isn't exactly fresh....flour for instance....I don't suppose you mill your own flour. This is one of those Different strokes for different folks scenarios. If you do your research and your taste testings, and I haven't met a salesman out of Sysco yet they would send over a sample or set up a meeting with the Sweet Street rep, you'll find some really great Desserts out there.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

FWIW I use a mixture of desserts made in house and premade ones.  Oddly cheesecake is the one that goes better premade.  Our homemade was far better but when we opened we had a frozen one that was extraordinarily tall and people are nuts for it.  We switched to making it but so many people asked for the first one again that I gave up and started buying it.

Also, while the menu is the fun part the bank won't give a shit about it at all. They'll want to see your business plan.  You'd be better off working on that first.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Phaedrus said:


> We switched to making it but so many people asked for the first one again that I gave up and started buying it.


you're making my point! I once had a German Chocolate layer cake out of Sysco, then switched to a freshly made one from a local bakery. Regulars were pissed to the point I brought the Sweet Street layer cake back and it was once again a hit. I'm telling' ya....the desserts out there are tremendous....


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Justa Chef said:


> you're making my point! I once had a German Chocolate layer cake out of Sysco, then switched to a freshly made one from a local bakery. Regulars were pissed to the point I brought the Sweet Street layer cake back and it was once again a hit. I'm telling' ya....the desserts out there are tremendous....


I'm certainly not arguing with you. I've seen again and again that some people really like certain premade products. Unless you have a good pastry chef it can be hard to match the consistency of the stuff you buy from the better companies. And it can be pretty expensive to keep a pastry chef in a world where margins are getting squeezed and competition is fierce for diner's dollars. Sadly, I think that a generation of people that grew up on processed foods have come to actually _prefer it_. I once worked in a very nice restaurant that used a bagged bisque as the house soup. The first thing I did when I took over the kitchen was to start making it from scratch with fresh ingredients. You wouldn't believe the firestorm of criticism! I fought with FOH over it for a month then threw in the towel and went back to bagged frozen stuff the customers were used to. Granted not all the premade stuff is bad and this stuff was okay, but not as good as scratch made stuff made every morning!

But you have to have a balance. One of the owners that had a big influence on me in my formative years always liked to tell me that anyone can open a can or a box, that's not what people go out to eat for. He's right...or at least it was that way back in the day.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

ya........"back in the day" a lot of stuff was different. Once upon a time kitchens were "Chef driven, now they are numbers driven and there isn't quite the balance many of us want to see. Fact of the matter is that the more premade product you bring in the less high paid labor you need. Sad but so. Lot's of scratch kitchens out there but less the manpower to run them. I see it all the time. As a consultant I've bumped heads with many an owner that wants their cake and wanna eat it to!!   But it no longer works like that. The example is the pastry chef in the smaller operations. 20k a year in pre made baking products or the 65k pastry chef. If Chefs want a balance, they do it by themselves along with their sous and still it takes up valuable manpower hours because they are running shorthanded to begin with. It's a catch 22


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Justa Chef said:


> you're making my point! I once had a German Chocolate layer cake out of Sysco, then switched to a freshly made one from a local bakery. Regulars were pissed to the point I brought the Sweet Street layer cake back and it was once again a hit. I'm telling' ya....the desserts out there are tremendous....


I used Sweet Street when I was catering, They have some good stuff.

https://www.sweetstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Full-Line-Brochure-Jan-2015.pdf


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

I went to the Sweet Street website.  Their food looks good but to me artificial.  I am a dinosaur and frequent places that make their own food.  They don't have to be fancy but I like an establishment that is unique.  There are many unique places out there if you look.   "This is one of those Different strokes for different folks scenarios" in this we agree.  For real bad but popular food I can go to McDonald's, Golden Coral, any of the Road houses, and many more to eat.  But now they don't have Chefs, they have shift managers and general managers.  They are all number driven places not food driven.  I am going out for a good BBQ for lunch.  They don't have a "Chef" but they have some real good scratch cooks.  It all works it's own way.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

chefbuba said:


> I used Sweet Street when I was catering, They have some good stuff.
> 
> https://www.sweetstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Full-Line-Brochure-Jan-2015.pdf


Well you pay a good price for a quality product, they send a rep out with samples if you want. You still need to pick and choose what you wanna bring in and what you're gonna make yourself. For instance, Bread puddings, grapenut pudding, cobblers and certain pies I do myself. The fancier things like snicker pies, molten lava, 7 layer cakes even some tarts, I'll bring in.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Guys, this conversation has veered seriously off course and I'd like to see it get back to the OP.  But, more importantly, I think there is a really good conversation here regarding pastry chefs, house made desserts and prepackaged pastry and I think that it deserves its very own thread, and not buried in another thread were many people aren't likely to find it.  I would love it if someone started a thread about this and we took the conversation there.  That way I think we could get more people to join in this discussion.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

I think it started going down hill around post 35 or so..lol.......we were asked to critique a menu and the thread starter got sorta belligerent and the thread took on a life of it's own. I think this is about over concluding with it's a different strokes for different folks scenario....Carry on


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## chefslug (Aug 21, 2013)

Ok so I'll probably end up buying premade desserts, just saying.

As for the crab jumbo lump and claw meat.

As for milling my own flour, of course justa chef! I plan on house milling everything I'm going to have a donkey run 1800's mill in the basement; I'm still seeking the right ass to walk around the basement grinding wheat for me if you want to send me your resume!


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

no..wouldn't work for someone with such a charming personality as yourself. In my professional opinion, I think you'll do a fine job on your own. You definitely worn't won't need help in that Dept. Excellent showcasing of yourself here so far.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Gentlemen, may we please have a little more decorum?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> Gentlemen, may we please have a little more decorum?


Thanx for your 2 cents and all your posts in this thread...... He asks for peoples help then turns on them...classy....


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

When a Chef asks would you critique my menu they are really asking would you tell me how wonderful I am. Most all the Chefs I have know over the years have their own ideas and really never will heed advice from anyone. Most have egos bigger than their paychecks. The only real advice they ask for is directions to the 99 cent store for the going out of business sign. I used to walk my dining rooms talking with my customers. One of my hostesses asked me " why is it you ask everyone how things are, are you looking for compliments" I told her no, I'm trying to find out if there are any complaints so I can take care of things now or before they leave. A good chef listens to everyone to see the whole picture. Your menu is a reflection of your years of understanding what works in your area. My menu s/b a collection of ideas that I think my customers will like and come back for......


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

ChefBillyB said:


> When a Chef asks would you critique my menu they are really asking would you tell me how wonderful I am. Most all the Chefs I have know over the years have their own ideas and really never will heed advice from anyone. Most have egos bigger than their paychecks. The only real advice they ask for is directions to the 99 cent store for the going out of business sign. I used to walk my dining rooms talking with my customers. One of my hostesses asked me " why is it you ask everyone how things are, are you looking for compliments" I told her no, I'm trying to find out if there are any complaints so I can take care of things now or before they leave. A good chef listens to everyone to see the whole picture. Your menu is a reflection of your years of understanding what works in your area. My menu s/b a collection of ideas that I think my customers will like and come back for......


I am not a professional chef, but i do own a restaurant and make w/e needs to be made (dips, sauces, batter etc.) And i am getting a consulting chef on the cheap (FREE) than i will listen and STFU. Especially when they probably charge....I really don't want to know what they charge, but w/e it is, its ALOT


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> I am not a professional chef, but i do own a restaurant and make w/e needs to be made (dips, sauces, batter etc.) And i am getting a consulting chef on the cheap (FREE) than i will listen and STFU. Especially when they probably charge....I really don't want to know what they charge, but w/e it is, its ALOT


I charge $80 an hour under contract to consult.. It's not a matter of shutting up an listening, it's about not asking and then being a pompous ass about it when you don't hear what you want to hear. This is an excerpt off my website. It lays it on the line right from the get go...

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"Firstly and very importantly, you need to do some soul-searching before hiring a consultant. Are you willing to listen to what a consultant has to say, even if it's not good news? Are you willing to change the way you're running your business? If you're not willing to listen and seriously consider someone else's opinion or are not willing to change the way you're doing business, then hiring an outside consultant would be a waste of their time and your money.

Ego's don't work here when you're business is at stake and time is of the essence. So many times I've gone to initial consultations, listened to the information that the prospective client presents and found the prospective clients are combative and defensive rather than responsive to suggestion and forthcoming with pertinent required information. Seriously, you want to hire me to straighten things out and the first thing you do is fight me tooth and nail because you feel your right about everything? Apparently that isn't so because if it were, you wouldn't be meeting with me. It's better to humble yourself now rather than later when you're shutting your doors."

If they agree with what's said, we can move on, if not...see ya. As a chef consultant I also need to pick and choose who I take on as a client. Hey, My Rep is on the line too. I'm not going pick up on something that could fail. I sure don't want failure on my record. 
So the last hing I need is a combative client who''s not going to listen and heed the advice....just sayin'

EndFragment


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> I charge $80 an hour under contract to consult..
> 
> EndFragment


Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

No, Christ doesn't charge. His services are free to all who believe and desire. 

But 80 for a consultant isn't very much, if he's any good.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

You are correct. However it's the going rate for an independent chef consultant who focuses specifically on BOH operations. The bigger companies get upwards of $300 an hour but also have 4 or 5 specialists doing a multi tasking job. They work both BOH and FOH and at a faster pace whereas I have a specific operation to conduct. My job usually takes 4 to 5 weeks to complete at an ave of 50 hours per week. Anything beyond that another contract is negotiated. Brian..you have a lot to learn about consulting I see.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Huh? What do you think I need to learn?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

@Justa Chef you must be thinking about @The novice's post.

In any case, I would like to ask everyone to please tone it down a notch.

Thank you.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

@kuan What R U referring to in regards to "thinking about Novice's Post?" As far as toning it down.....what are you upset about in particular? Certain people find the need to be antagonistic while others are trying to give sound advice.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> You are correct. However it's the going rate for an independent chef consultant who focuses specifically on BOH operations. The bigger companies get upwards of $300 an hour but also have 4 or 5 specialists doing a multi tasking job. They work both BOH and FOH and at a faster pace whereas I have a specific operation to conduct. My job usually takes 4 to 5 weeks to complete at an ave of 50 hours per week. Anything beyond that another contract is negotiated.





BrianShaw said:


> Huh? What do you think I need to learn?


"Brian..you have a lot to learn about _*consulting *_I see." Read my friend...read


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Your still not making your point (not a good trait for a consultant). Why do you persist in calling me out of my name? What exactly do you think you know about me and what exactly do you think I don't know?

Or are you trying to find out if I can divide 300 by 4 or 5? If so, yes... I know there are high priced as well as low-ball consultants in many disciplines. Just like I know there are consultants who have the credentials to support their price and others who are just hot air... And very few with the confidence to forgo a hourly fee and work under a "pay for performance " agreement.

I'll bet I know a lot more about consultants and consulting than you think I do. But the one thing I know for sure is how easy it is to be a random windbag on the Internet. Ha ha ha.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The novice said:


> I am not a professional chef, but i do own a restaurant and make w/e needs to be made (dips, sauces, batter etc.) And i am getting a consulting chef on the cheap (FREE) than i will listen and STFU. Especially when they probably charge....I really don't want to know what they charge, but w/e it is, its ALOT



The novice
 when I looked at setting up my business I made sure I put my strong points center stage. The biggest downfall of every restaurant operation is thinking they know everything. I think most chefs think everything they do is second to none, best of breed and better than most. I learned early to be open to all suggestions, this isn't easy when you have an ego. The reason why I loved this business is because I was good at it. I was able to get a lot of self satisfaction, positive feedback from customers and a feeling of accomplishment. There aren't many jobs you work at in life that you get this much immediate gratification. This could be the reason why most chefs think they know-it-all. I mean if everyone is patting you on the back how could that not go to your head. The thing to realize is we don't know it all. We can all learn something from everyone. I realize I never learned anything with my mouth open. Be like a sponge when your working with someone with more knowledge in a area that your no strong at. I remember when I started playing golf. The pro told me people will always practice with a 7 iron because it's an easier club to hit the ball with and make us look good. We all want to look good but, in order to be good we need to hit all the clubs well. This is the something in business, learn how to be great at everything so your business will run smooth and efficient.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

So true @ChefBillyB.

We need to hit well with all the clubs.

I am stealing that analogy....pretty sure it will come in handy the next time I am dressing down one of the Grands for a poorly done job.

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

mimi


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> But the one thing I know for sure is how easy it is to be a random windbag on the Internet. Ha ha ha.


Yup..you're a pro.... "Ha Ha Ha"


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Justa Chef said:


> Yup..you're a pro.... "Ha Ha Ha"


But really... you seem to be stirring a pot. What's your point? I'm really curious. Why won't you address the issue that seems to be agitating you? "What are you upset about in particular?"

If I read between the lines you act as if I assaulted your credentials (none of which I recall ever being presented) or your consulting fee. In fact, I supported your consulting fee as being "reasonable". I don't understand your point.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Honestly don't know what you're talking about. No points here just making observations. Don't know why you feel I'm stiring the pot...I have ill will towards you...you've only made 3 posts in this thread..lol.....why are you going off the deep end my friend? I'm appreciative if anything that you support what I'm saying..Thank You...my apologies if you took my pun seriously..lol...Now if you'd like to tell everyone of you consulting experience and how much your asking price and hour is, I'm more than happy to read all about it! 

I deal with owners that approach me to find out why they aren't meeting their financial goals. Asking anymore than I do would be too much of a dent in their wallets. The charges also vary depending on the project and what they ask me to do in that project. I have an a la carte menu so to speak, they only pay for what they want done


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh... okay, I get it now. You were writing using a dry New England sense of humor. Well I missed that... which is unusual because I'm a dry humored New Englander.  And I still don't understand the "pun".  Honestly, I had no idea what you were talking about and calling me out by name wasn't helping. But what does it matter what my consulting experience/rates are? Wh don't you post a real name and your credentials if you want to assess credibility?  On second thought, don't bother. Carry on...


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Are you guys done yet or do you need some assistance?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

cheflayne said:


> Are you guys done yet or do you need some assistance?


No, I'm done. But thanks very much for the offer of assistance. 

Actually... yes... I'll take you up onthat offer. What do you suppose this meant, "I have ill will towards you..." Perhaps a typo and should have meant "I have NO ill will towards you..." or is that a Freudian slip?

Now I'm done. Thank you for your offer.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

This thread is gonna is be closed/locked....


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Thank you Cheflayne..all set with this one here on my end...i'll let him have the last word.....yes....a Siggy slip.".NO ill will"..I stand corrected....I'm happy with how I present myself here thank you anyhow......


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

The novice said:


> This thread is gonna is closed/locked....


Less obnoxious comments have been deleted. Not sure why this thread is still open and comments remain.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

jake t buds said:


> Less obnoxious comments have been deleted. Not sure why this thread is still open and comments remain.


seems to me there is a lot of really good info and different chefs opinions and perspectives here......some accepted others not....


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

This thread has gone hopelessly off topic and has gone in a direction that is not constructive so I am locking it down.  Would have shut it down sooner but I haven't had a chance to get on the boards since my last post on here.


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