# Commercial ranges in home kitchen?



## motty

Hi All,
I'm currently in the process of redesigning my kitchen and decided to invest in a high quality range. I cam across the Garland brand which is a commercial range. I didn't find any reference of any commercial oven being used in a home kitchen. Has anyone had any experience with a commercial range in a home?
From the little info I gathered the upside is price and the downside is space from combastibles (6" on each side). Any other drawbacks?

Thanks for any advise,
Motty


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## drac

Check to make sure that there isn't any city or county ordinance against the btu rating you're looking at. Some areas won't allow the sort of btu's professional model put out & some areas that do allow it require special boarding around it.

Jim


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## motty

Thanks Jim. I wasn't aware of the BTU limitation, I'll check my town's building code.


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## foodpump

While your at it, check your home owner's insurance to see if you can actually install a commercial range in a household, and if, in the event of fire or smoke damage if you' re covered. Then check the clearance for the commercial range, chances are you'll need at least 6" from the wall and 6" on either side. Then back to City hall and check what kind of fire rating you need for the walls around the said range. Then check to see what kind of ventilation system you'll need, cause if if the range puts out over 100,000 BTU's you'll need an "advanced" ventilation system, and what goes out must come in, so you'll need some kind make-up or return air system, and then.......


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## jock

I agree with the other posters - it's probably better you don't go that route. Way more trouble and expense than it's worth. Commercial ranges are not insulated like residential and that can be dangerous - especially if there are children in the house.

Jock


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## dg0113

also there is a plot light always lite on them so that can be a big fire danger there


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## deltadoc

If you're really serious, you can check eBay for an older model Residential Wolf Range. Years ago, before Wolf Residential was bought from Wolf by SubZero, hey took their commercial range and added insulation all around inside the outer metal part so you could bump it up right against your wall and kitchen cabinets. I still hate myself for not going for it, but at the time, from a Restaurant Supply house the Wolf commerical range with the raised griddle and broiler underneath, was about $1200 and the insulated Residential version of the same Range was about $3300. I couldn't justify the differential in price, so I went with a Thermador Professional Gas Cooktop instead. Sadly, the 15K BTU grill doesn't cut it, and the 15K BTU griddle is only passing fair if you don't load it up too much: it is only 12" wide. However, the 15K BTU burners are ok. I've got too set low (you can pull of the knob and stick a little screwdriver in and turn down the flame a bit from Maximum) for simmering stock pots.


doc


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## tombrooklyn

Some of those commercial ranges have a lot of pilot lights.


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## mattwright

BlueStar is the name of the residential line of Garland ranges. Prizer Painter made the orginial Garland ranges for both home and commercial use. Garland decided to drop the home line a while back, but gave PP the rights to use their star shaped burner in the line that PP now calls BlueStar.

I have been doing a lot of range research the last couple of months (kitchen reno about to happen), and have settled on a BlueStar. The BTUs are awesome (22k), infrared broiler, large oven for a 30" range. To top it off, it is really the only commercial range available in a residential setting - without buying a true commercial range, and worrying about screwing with building codes, and burning down your house.

Some notes about the bluestar:

Little electronics to go wrong (yay)
Really powerfull burners
Great open burner design
Star shaped burner gives even heat under pan
Build quality is very much "commerical" A really solid range, but lacks the refinement of a Wolf or Viking. 

I would pick one of thes over a Wolf or Viking any day. It is cheaper, more powerfull, easier to clean, and less complicated. It is a cooking TOOL, rather than something to show off to friends with.

I took a few photos during a visit to a local showroom, that had one live - take a look, MSG me if you want the photos.

(and no, I dont sell ranges!!! I had just been looking for something like this for ages, and get rather passionate about kitchen stuff )

The other line you can check out is FiveStar - these are decent, a lower price point, lower BTUs and no infrared. But they aren't bad - BlueStar are better though.


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## cheflayne

I have a commercial range at home and my only observation would be that I have to keep a good eye on flame height compared to pan size otherwise the outside of my pans get blackened because of the size of the burners and the BTU output and the fact that at home I am generally using a smaller size pan than in a professional situation.


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## lana

What about the Jenn Air Pro Line of Appliances?
or Maytag Gas 30 in. Double-Oven Free Standing Range 

I would go with one of these. They are just as striking in their look....if not more so....definately an attention getter! Also, they are rated for home use, so you won't have to jump thru all of the building code hoops.


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## ercillor

Hi,

After reading these posts I feel like a kid with a BB gun who has just wandered onto Aberdeen Proving Ground and is looking at all the monster weaponry they've got there... Just a bit overwhelmed by it all and a bit timid about being out of my class, but...

What do you all think about the GE Cafe gas stove? My wife -- I'll blame her -- picked it on looks and I can certainly see why.

Does anyone know about this self standing stove?

How about the GE Cafe microwave?

Certainly would appreciate some professional opinions.

Thanks.


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## mattwright

All I know is that it is a pretty new stove - out in the last 6 months. My opinion is that I would rather go with something that has been roadtested a little more to be honest, especially if is one that has a bunch of electronics on it.

I have just had a kitchen remodel done, and we got a BlueStar RNB 30" put in. I do a ton of cooking, and absolutely love this stove. It is really powerful, yet extremely controlable. Very well made, commercial grade (about the only home range that you could call commerical grade - forget viking or wolf home stoves).

To top it off, the whole thing is really simple. No expensive electronics to go wrong - it does one thing, and one thing really well - cooks food. To top it off, in my area it rocked in cheaper than almost all competitors - far less cash than a Viking, Wolf etc, and IMHO far better quality.

The only thing is that because it is so powerful, you need to look a decent vent hood. Forget having a small hood, or even a microwave hood over it - that isn't going to cut it.

Anyhow, I would try and find a store that can give you a "live" demo of any stove you are looking at - try before you buy. I would also do a ton of research, and get peoples early opinions on the GE Cafe.


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## ercillor

Thanks Matt.

My wife and I will have to vote on this; It's a democratic arrangement -- she gets to break any 'ties' -- so we may wind up with the GE Cafe units even though your advice is extremely sound and I would be inclined to follow it myself.

If we do take the "road untravelled" (GE Cafe) I will let you know by starting a new thread under that heading.

Eric
[Heck, somebody has got to go first].


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## mattwright

Before I found BlueStar one appliance guy was telling me to wait for the GE Cafe series - apparently (according to him, who stocked GE stuff) it was going to be a decent quality unit, that looked good, and was priced right.

18k BTUs sounds perfectly powerfull enough for most stuff. I would go for the dual fuel range. There aren't a lot of full gas ranges that I would buy (BlueStar is one of them..).

Also before you buy, find out information on repair costs. The Cafe has a quite an electronic panel on the front, and those can burn out pretty easily - especially if you use the oven self-clean option because of the high heat involved. I have heard of repair bills up to $1000 for those costly electronics.


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## jssilver

There's an extensive discussion about the GE Cafe on The Garden Web appliances forum. Search for "GE Cafe appliance opinions?". Sorry, this forum isn't allowing me to post URLs.


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## tripk

Hi all,

Some really good information here. Thanks. 

I'm heading out this weekend to look at ranges for our new build. I'm an avid amatur cook and right now have it narrowed down (I think) to either the Blue Star 30" RNB or Capital Precision (30") with the center wok burner. 

I would love feedback on either of these ranges. Capital seems like it might offer the best of all worlds--powerful burners with some (but not too much) domestic refinement, plus a few wiz bang features. Blue Star looks like it "does what it says on the tin" i.e. cook well. 

Thanks,
Trip


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## meralee

I manage a restaurant supply store. We often get individuals in looking at our commercial ranges for their homes. While the price appears to be huge savings, it is quite misleading.

You must have more clearance as you mentioned, but even with the clearance, you should have stainless steel facing the unit on your cabinets and back wall. You will also need a much heavier duty vent hood than standard residential units.

Beyone those aspects, there's the factor of higher insurance premiums (or risking voiding insurance). As someone else mentioned, they are not insulated like residential units and are very hot to the touch (very bad idea with kids or pets).

I'd recommend going with residential quality units made for residential applications. There are several companies out there who make both the commercial and residential units.


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## damian

anyone know how much the double bluestar ranges go for? the 48" thermadors are like 12k. Not sure that's worth it.

i'm hoping to find a pseudo commercial range option that's home safe but not dramatically more expensive than a vulcan 60" restaurant range, which is about 3K.


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## damian

well apparently bluestars are like 11k too.


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## phatch

The homestyle commercial look ranges are way overpriced for the actual performance they offer. 

You'll get more performance out of a real commercial range, but they're actually pretty ugly. They usually require some extra pipe rigging for the proper gas flow plus some expensive fire code construction for the walls, a fire supppresion system (more plumbing) and a high volume exterior venting hood. 

Which all puts the price back up there with the commercial looking home ranges.

Member Boar_d_laze here often recommends buying two standard home ranges which gives you more actual burners at the same output and depending on design, more ovens. He makes a good point and you'll probably save money.


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## damian

yeah, i looked into commercial ranges, which are very attractive for their 3k price range. but in the end, i decided i didn't want to worry about all that other crap, especially since i anticipate kids wandering in from time to time and those ovens get pretty hot. 

I almost wonder if it's not more economical to just buy two separate 30" ranges.


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## phatch

I must have been editing my reply to add that comment about two ranges as your were typing. Because it can be a better option.


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## damian

yeah, i may be leaning in that direction now. while the vikings and wolves look great, i'm not sure i can justify that much money for it. I especially like the idea of buying one range up front and leaving a space and wiring/gas lines for a second one that i buy several months down the road.


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## hotchpotch

JUST FYI about "real commercial ranges in homes, It is illegal to put them into most US homes:

2006 IRC 2447.2 (623.2) Prohibited location. 
Cooking appliances designed, tested, listed and labeled for use in commercial occupancies shall not be installed within dwelling units or within any area where domestic cooking operations occur."

The same statement is also found in the International Fuel and Gas Code section 623.2
http://www2.rigov.org/pdf/inspections...

This is not a new code addition but has been on the books for many years.

The IRC is The International Residential Code (IRC) is a comprehensive, stand-alone residential code that creates minimum regulations for one- and two-family dwellings of three stories or less. It brings together all building, plumbing, mechanical, fuel gas, energy and electrical provisions for one- and two-family residences. 

It is up to each state to adopt these codes but almost all do, so you would have to check the state that you live in.


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## hotchpotch

Damian,

I read some comments about ranges by other posters on other forums here and I would have to disagree with them on quite a number of issues. However, let us all keep in mind:

"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." Oscar Wilde

Two 30" stoves is economical, but visually not very appealing.
Also what stove are you going to buy, most high-end home models have some serious drawbacks. Only 1 burner is high and only 1 burner is a simmer burner, etc.

Here are my takes on things

The nonsense about not needing high heat to sauté properly is silly. The extra heat is designed to keep the pan HOT after you place in the product, if you don't keep it hot you will begin to steam rather than sauté. I would want all of my burners to be able to produce 15K BTU minimum and all of them to be able to simmer.

Dual fuel is a waste of money and a marketing gimmick, the only people who might want it are precision bakers who need very low humidity ovens.

Sealed burners and self-cleaning ovens - more gimmicks. 

For reliability issues I must disagree again - 4 years ago when I purchased my second commercial style residential stove I spent many hours researching, even to the point of taking a wolf and Viking apart in a show room. I also spoke to quite a few service managers and service technicians from two very high volume Los Angeles area stores and the highest volume dealer in Seattle.

Remember things change - this was 4 years ago and this is how they rated the appliances

Wolf - unanimously they all picked this as number 1 for reliability - am very surprised to have read otherwise here (I have owned 2 for a grand total of 15 years with ZERO problems. My current 48" wolf gets a major workout weekly.)

American Range - 2nd

Imperial and Viking - 3rd, but all mentioned a higher than normal repair rate, would not recommend and Imperial as mentioned before is weird looking.

Dacor, DCS, 4 star - all bad

Currently it appears to me that SubZero, who bought Wolf (residential) have begun to tweak them, they did have some recall issues a year or two ago so this may be the decline of them.

BlueStar the other name you hear being tossed about a lot was relatively unknown on the West coast but they are a company to look into.

I choose the wolf for several reasons, reliability of my first one and the unanimous praise that service managers and technicians still had for it. Beefier construction internally than the Viking, plus I noticed that SubZero was still using the same parts on the 2004/5 stove as it did on my Wolf manufactured one. And probably the best feature of it was the infrared ceramic Char-grill was top notch. It is nothing like the Viking or BlueStar marking grill that simply has a gas tube pouring out heat, this is a true high end ceramic unit that can truly sear a steak, not just mark it. With the addition of a smoker box and some wood chips and you have 24/7 wood fired grill that 99.9% of the people will swear I cooked the steaks outside over the real wood grill by my pool. Of course you will need a hood, to do this.

Now that I've muddled the pot here are some suggestions for you, in today's current turbulent marketplace, buy used.

A 3 year old 60" Viking was sold in an estate sale by me for a little over 3K. Ebay has some values, check craigslist, ($4100 for a 48" wolf with charbroiler in Phoenix) and call your local appliance stores, many of them buy back these stoves on estate sales for customers who want them.


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## duckfat

It really depends on how you set them up and the options you choose. Typically BS is more expensive than either Viking or Wolf. In the past they were less but for the most part those days are long gone in regards to ranges.
I agree with the comment made upthread about commercial style ranges not being the best option for many. However my Viking has served me well and I've also owned a BS.
I have zero experience with them but every one I have spoken to that has a GE cafe is thrilled with it. BS has the same electronics as all the other commercial brands. The primary culprit with all of them is the ignition module. BS has had more than their share of problems with that. If you are interested in that brand I suggest you spend some time on the appliance forums over at Garden Web. Several members over there have had some luck modifying their BS ranges to use Thermadore ignition modules.
If you can install a true commercial range Garland is a far better choice than BS. You can get a 36" Garland for 2k. 
I would not want two 30" ranges for a number of reasons. Two decent ranges will still set you back 5-6K and you will not have the high BTU burners which in most cases is the primary reason for wanting a commercial style range. The only exception I can think of here would be some one that actually needs 8 burners and is on a limited budget.
I don't know why people get wrapped up in this but there are only a few companies that still make true commercial ranges and commercial style products for the Home. Both Wolf and Garland sold off their home range division. Neither of those products are what they used to be. The company that used to make Wolf commercial is now producing Challanger equipment. Garland sold to BS several years ago and is not affiliated in any way with that product. In fact Garland is now owned by Manitowoc.
Viking just started a commercial line this year.
There are a few others but they are not nearly as popular if that matters.
As always before you invest in a product like this make sure there is factory authorized service near you. 
It all depends on what you want in the end. I would not want DF or sealed burners. 
OTOH a self cleaning oven is a must have at home for me.
Once you narrow down your list of wants and decide on a price range you can make a much better list of comparable products.


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## damian

thanks. i looked into my city's code but couldn't find anything specific, but decided against a pure commercial oven because of all the potential headaches.


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## damian

how are FiveStar ranges?

FiveStar Five Star Dual Fuel 60"convectionRange viking - eBay (item 230389942621 end time Oct-25-09 18:01:44 PDT)


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## duckfat

They are pretty nice. Rick Bayless is their front man. IIR one of thir main distributors went bankrupt so they may be hard to find out side of Chicago. They are not in the same league as Wolf, Viking or BS etc. but they are a step up from a standard home owner range. I have never heard of any repair issues with them but they suffer from the same problem as BS in their small dealer/service network. You may want to consider them if you are looking for the middle ground. IIR they are all sealed burners. I wouldn't buy a used range off eBay unless you can inspect it and see it function before you buy.


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## hotchpotch

Whoops my bad I put 4 star in my post, but 4-5 years ago they were major repair nightmares.

I don't know if they have changed - but good job looking at other venues.


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## damian

yeah, craigslist seems to be a viable option. 

now i'm leaning toward a 48" commericial/residential since the biggest reason for going for two ovens is to simply have room for a second dish that needs a different temp. i think a 48" with the mini side oven could do the trick.

then again i've changed my mind 4000 times in about 3 days, so who knows.


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## boar_d_laze

Damian,

It's such an exciting project, it's almost impossible not to fantasize oneself into your situation. 

You said something about 200 sq ft., but not about the actual dimensions. 25' x 8'? 16' x 16'? What. Those are very different kitchens.

Have you set your design yet? If so, what is it?

FWIW, the trend in kitchen designs for multiple sinks is so that each cook gets his (or her) own "station." 

Multiple stove tops, ranges, wall ovens, etc., can be for the same thing; or to get the second stove top (and/or oven) somewhere it uses less valuable real estate than the goddam middle of the counter. After all, most meals are cooked on one or two burners, and one oven -- at most; and when you want more burners and an extra oven, you generally don't need them to have all of the high-zoot features. Counter space, though is always at a premium. 

It used to be a way to save money, but stove pricing has changed. Multiple refrigerators and/or freezers are sometimes worthwhile as well. 

BDL


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## damian

The actual space is about 16 x 13. I definitely want more input. I will try to remember to bring my drawings into work tomorrow so I can scan them and post them here.

It's a lot of room to work with, but it's challenging because it's in the basement and there are an egress window, electrical box, and a couple poles to contend with.


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## damian

here you go. going to put it in my other thread about kitchens, too.


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## damian

i used some crappy software so not everything is 100% correct. the upper left corner is actually a closet where the sump pump is. to the right of it is a planned butler's pantry.

all the way on the right wall past the big dining table is the stairway. the room to the bottom right is the utility room, so that can't go anywhere.

on the left wall, the long skinny rectangle is a tv, with a couch in front of it. that is going to be a sofa bed, and it's the only place a tv makes sense, so that is pretty much going to stay.

everything in the kitchen area is just my imagination at this point. the two tiny boxes represent basement support poles. the window on the left wall in the bottom left corner is an egress window. the other window on the bottom wall is a crappy basement window that gets no light anyway because the deck is over it, so it can be covered. the electrical box is just to the left of it, so i'm thinking of putting a pantry here to cover both of them up. the box in the middle is probably a cart, not an island.

the box just to the right of the bottom window is the refrigerator, and obviously that's the range next to it (probably going to be a 48"). the sink is a corner sink opposite the range, near the bar stools, so whoever is at the sink can face the entertaining area. the sink is pretty much limited to the right wall of the kitchen because that is where the plumbing is. just to the left of the corner will be the dishwasher.

also, the width of the kitchen is 17' 6". From the bottom wall to the support poles is 12'.


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## boar_d_laze

Damian,

A few preliminary questions.

How high are the ceilings?

What's your budget like? I.e, is it luxury, medium, or very tight?

Can you afford one or two special features? Some examples are a wok burner, a pizza oven, an indoor grill, and so on.

How often do you entertain?

How many cooks in your kitchen when you do?

Are you wine, and/or beer, and/or cocktail drinkers when it's just the immediate family? When you entertain?

Do you want a desk as part of your kitchen?

Presumably the empty room in your drawing is a bathroom, since the common wall holds the drain. Is it impossible (impossibility includes way "too expensive") to run a drain to any other wall?

There doesn't seem to be any provision for getting ingredients down to the kitchen from the car, or snacks, drinks, etc., up to the house from the basement. Is a dumb waiter a possibility?

May I be blunt without risking hurt feelings?

Here are a few (fairly blunt) thoughts right off the bat:

Considering you're working with 17-1/2 x 12, the most efficient and overall best shape is going to be a modified galley with a "U" at one end. Your "L" won't work well for the "entertainment kitchen" in a "great room."
Your "breakfast table" is a waste of space. Instead, integrate a 16" of extra width for a bar, on to a 10' counter at the "top" coming off the left wall on the top of the kitchen.
If at all possible, put your main (or only) sink in this counter, with the stove opposite it on the bottom wall. Alternatively, put your main hot area (whether a stove top or a range) in the bar. Either way, you'll not only improve your sight lines, but you can make better use of architectural features like your range hood(s), pot shelves, pot rack, or even cabinets with glass doors on both sides.
 Despite what DC said, your "triangle" sucks; both in terms of efficiency and in terms of working with sight-lines to the rest of the room.
Given the amount of floor, counter, and wall space you have, it's to your benefit to think in terms of a "square" (pantry, refrigerator, sink(s), stove(s), rather than the old fashioned triangle.
There are a great many good reasons to have two sinks -- the best being accomodating two cooks at the same time. There are even more good reasons for two hot areas.
Whether you can run a drain or not, you're going to have to run electricity all over the place. Reconcile yourself to it.
Baking area: You need one.
Hope this inspires a few thoughts,
BDL


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## damian

"How high are the ceilings?"

7' 6"

"What's your budget like? I.e, is it luxury, medium, or very tight?"

medium. i will splurge on things that will make a difference, like the range.

"Can you afford one or two special features? Some examples are a wok burner, a pizza oven, an indoor grill, and so on."

not interested in any of these. it's in a basement so the added costs of safety and venilation considerations are prohibitive.

"How often do you entertain?"

about once a month

"How many cooks in your kitchen when you do?"

1-2

"Are you wine, and/or beer, and/or cocktail drinkers when it's just the immediate family? When you entertain? "

wine. there will be a wine cellar under the stairs, and i have about 1000 wine racks all over the house.

"Do you want a desk as part of your kitchen?"

no

"Presumably the empty room in your drawing is a bathroom, since the common wall holds the drain. Is it impossible (impossibility includes way "too expensive") to run a drain to any other wall?"

the empty room is furnace, water heater, and laundry. the further from that wall the sink is, the crappier the drain will work, so i am going to keep it close.

"There doesn't seem to be any provision for getting ingredients down to the kitchen from the car, or snacks, drinks, etc., up to the house from the basement. Is a dumb waiter a possibility?"

yeah, i'm the dumb waiter. this is not an everyday kitchen, so it's not a concern.


Considering you're working with 17-1/2 x 12, the most efficient and overall best shape is going to be a modified galley with a "U" at one end. Your "L" won't work well for the "entertainment kitchen" in a "great room."
unfortunately, the electrical box and the egress window on the left wall prevent anything of substance from being put there.
Your "breakfast table" is a waste of space. Instead, integrate a 16" of extra width for a bar, on to a 10' counter at the "top" coming off the left wall on the top of the kitchen.
If at all possible, put your main (or only) sink in this counter, with the stove opposite it on the bottom wall. Alternatively, put your main hot area (whether a stove top or a range) in the bar. Either way, you'll not only improve your sight lines, but you can make better use of architectural features like your range hood(s), pot shelves, pot rack, or even cabinets with glass doors on both sides.
as noted above, plumbing considerations make this difficult. also, the indicated tv will not be moved, so it makes any counter on that side difficult.
Despite what DC said, your "triangle" sucks; both in terms of efficiency and in terms of working with sight-lines to the rest of the room.
Given the amount of floor, counter, and wall space you have, it's to your benefit to think in terms of a "square" (pantry, refrigerator, sink(s), stove(s), rather than the old fashioned triangle.
There are a great many good reasons to have two sinks -- the best being accomodating two cooks at the same time. There are even more good reasons for two hot areas.
Whether you can run a drain or not, you're going to have to run electricity all over the place. Reconcile yourself to it.
Baking area: You need one.
noted, thanks


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## boar_d_laze

I wasn't sure whether your plan was for an only or a second kitchen; and just went ahead and looked at it as the primary -- oops. I still think the "breakfast table" is a space waster, unless it's not a breakfast table but a card table -- in which case, maybe that's the best place for a card table. Similarly, my comments regarding the overall shape of the kitchen -- galley is better than "L" -- true for a general purpose kitchen, but I don't have enough of a feel (or expertise) for what you want to give really comprehensive advice.

I've designed and built a few kitches -- one for myself and a few more for real-estate flyers, so I've got a little experience and have given the subject some thought -- but you're into uncharted waters (at least for me). 

BDL


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## damian

i agree that the table (which isn't necessarily breakfast, but also general use) takes up a lot of space that could be utilized for kitchen stuff. however, the window on that wall (the egress window) faces east and is going to be pretty huge. believe it or not, it's the only east facing window in the entire house (our upstairs kitching/dining area has north facing windows/doorwall only). so in addition to adding extra seating for larger gatherings, i did think it would be nice to be able to have breakfast down there in actual sunlight in the summer. another plan put the refrigerator on that left wall (instead of the table) for a larger triangle, and a horizontal island and/or longer peninsula for more seating. i'm still bouncing all of these suggestions around since not much is final yet, other than working around basement inconveniences like ductwork.


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## cookwithtom

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm doing a small kitchen remodel (countertops/appliances). I've been eyeing a 36" Wolf for a while, but now I'm rethinking my aspirations. 22k BTU.... that should put on a nice sear!


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## peterflemg80

You must also contain some ice machine in your kitchen,which add some glory to your kitchen.


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## castironcook2

"To top it off, the whole thing is really simple. No expensive electronics to go wrong - it does one thing, and one thing really well - cooks food." Mattwright, you are SO right! We put in a BlueStar 30" slide-in rangetop, and like you, absolutely LOVE it. It is a cooking TOOL, a serious stove for serious cooks. Finally, we're enjoying our kitchen experience!


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## markinarizona

The up end of the BlueStar line is great. And they cook beautifully. There are some with 21k btu burners (that's hot!) and they're almost as fast as a big real commercial range. We've got one in our new kitchen and love it. But the other thing I put in that we fought over was a two burner induction unit. I got one of the commercial ones (mine is made by Cook-Tek) and it's got 2 3KW burners and it was pricey. But for boiling water, pasta, oatmeal, soups, etc., the induction is MUCH faster than the gas range. Also, it doesn't heat up the kitchen like the big gas stove will. We're in Arizona and it can be 115 degrees outside in the summer. So NOT putting any more stress on our AC units is always a good thing! The induction engine puts the heat in the pan, and all the energy you pay for goes into the pan, not into the kitchen. Induction is as controllable as Gas, and no, I didn't believe it could be at first, either. But it really is. If I had it to do again, I'd have put in a pair of the high output induction units and then added a smaller gas range top (maybe four burners?) or even one of the nicer residential small gas cook tops. Or two of the Wolf or Miele single burner "Wok" burners (18000 btu's) along with the induction cooktop. 

This time round the induction was an "after thought" and I tucked the burners in an island we have. The stove is opposite the island on a wall. Because the induction burners are flat glass with no raised edge, I use it as counter space when I'm not cooking on them. We're in the city of Scottsdale and the building codes here did force me to both sprinklers and a high output vent hood. That added about $3000 to the cost of the stove installation. Going with the four induction and two gas burners as outlined above would have been cheaper AND would have save the $3k on the sprinklers and H/O Vent-a-Hood unit. As for ovens, we almost never use the oven in the stove. We have a pair of Miele ovens - one regular convection and the other is their speed oven which works great for most things (it's small like a microwave and offers regular heat, convection, microwave and any combo of those things together.) If I were living alone, I could easily get by with that one unit as my only oven in the place (note for your condo dwellers where space is tight but you do like the gadgets - this is one gadget that is well worth paying for.) But come to think of it, I've never had a Miele appliance that wasn't the best of the best. I can rave about my new Miele La Perla Dishwashers for twenty minutes. Suffice it to say the dishes look like they've been polished when the cycle is done! Amazing machine that La Perla. Cost like **** and was worth every penny! In fact it was so good I decided to forego a compactor in the kitchen and gained the room for a 2nd Dishwasher and bought another one to match the first one! Back to topic: go try a good induction cooktop either as your main cooking appliance or a secondary. You may be surprised to find you use it more than a big high output ultra-hot gas cooktop. We certainly we shocked to find that the induction is as good as it is! And we use the induction far more than the gas cooktop most of the year round now!


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## mikemac

hey matt thanks for the info. i would like to see some pics if you still have them and thanks again.


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## brill333

My wife (the main cook in the family) came across an incredible deal on a Garland Electric Range and wants to bring it into our home kitchen. Would all of the concerns I have seen expressed here apply? Are there any other concerns we should have beyond clearance space? I am in a quandry.


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## motty

From what I gathered, you also need to deal with the heat dissepation which is substantial. In a professional kitchen they have blowers to take the heat out, but in a home it can be a problem. You also need to keep in mind that most things in a home kitchen don't react too well to high tempratures. Way back when I was shopping around this was my dillema as well (I had a great priced Garland), but I opet for the Blue Star and I'm really happy with it.

-- Cheers, Motty


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## sarahg

Hi Cheflayne,

Although your message was posted many years ago, I would like to ask you what sort of commercial range you have and if you have had any of the boogieman problems one hears over and over again, such as gas-line insufficiency, heating danger, or even the additionally incurred gar expense from running this type of range?

The reason I ask is I just picked a really beautiful 6 burner garland, double oven, raised griddle model--an amazing piece of culinary machinery--and am interested in hearing the experiences of those with such stoves in their own kitchens.

Thanks.

Sarah


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## cheflayne

I have a Jade 24" 4 burner similar to the one in this picture, I say similar because my stove is now over 25 years old. Also the one in the picture has a convection oven and mine has a standard oven, so the oven in mine is a little larger.










Last night I used the oven at a temp of 475. House and stove both still standing so no boogieman problem here.

_disclaimer: _individuals may experience different opinions and results, poster assumes no responsibility for any other than his own :~)


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## sarahg

Hi Cheflayne,

Thank you for for responding to my message. I appreciate that a lot. 

Sarah


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## cheflayne

Hi backatcha @sarahg, it was my pleasure. Never had any issues in 25 years (such as gas-line insufficiency, heating danger, or even the additionally incurred gar expense from running this type of range).

FWIW, mine is jetted for and uses propane, but I can't imagine that really making much of difference. I know that people say "propane doesn't burn as hot as natural gas", but that is the reason that the jets are different. 475 is 475 in my book.

Your new setup sounds like the bomb...way cool. I would have loved to have gotten a six burner, but the price was right and I didn't really need a six burner (small house, just me and the wife) so logic prevailed instead of my inner chef child who was screaming "I want, I want, I want". Enjoy your amazing piece of culinary machinery!

Oh before I forget, the jets are easy to switch out, if you need to, by anyone with a modicum of mechanical know how, like how to use a wrench. It's easy peasy.


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## halb

No problems with your homeowner's insurance or the building inspector like others have said? A natural gas range would usually require a larger service which would involve the gas supplier and a plumber along with permits and inspections.  So now you are on the radar.


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## jimyra

sarahg said:


> Hi Cheflayne,
> 
> Although your message was posted many years ago, I would like to ask you what sort of commercial range you have and if you have had any of the boogieman problems one hears over and over again, such as gas-line insufficiency, heating danger, or even the additionally incurred gar expense from running this type of range?
> 
> The reason I ask is I just picked a really beautiful 6 burner garland, double oven, raised griddle model--an amazing piece of culinary machinery--and am interested in hearing the experiences of those with such stoves in their own kitchens.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sarah


Sarah,

I have a Vulcan sixty inch range. Six burners, 24" raised griddle, broiler, and double oven. I would not even consider installing one unless you consult an engineer for proper installation. My range puts out 260,000 BTU's. I have a 4' X 8' hood with fire suppression and make up air. Even with this the home HVAC has trouble keeping up. Proper installation can cost thousands of dollars. Good luck with your project. I do love my range.


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## jimyra

"propane doesn't burn as hot as natural gas"  My range is propane.  It came from factory set up for propane.  Propane puts out more BTU's than Natural Gas.  You are correct that 475 is 475.


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## halb

Jimyra said:


> Sarah,
> 
> I have a Vulcan sixty inch range. Six burners, 24" raised griddle, broiler, and double oven. I would not even consider installing one unless you consult an engineer for proper installation. My range puts out 260,000 BTU's. I have a 4' X 8' hood with fire suppression and make up air. Even with this the home HVAC has trouble keeping up. Proper installation can cost thousands of dollars. Good luck with your project. I do love my range.


Proper build out and installation is imperative. On the plus side, if you can get around the regulatory problems the cost of a "proper" installation, if you consider it with a complete kitchen remodel, can be about the same as a "high end prosumer" installation.


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## jimyra

I have about fifteen thousand in my installation.  My hood came out of a demolition project.  I had to add fans, filters, and ansul system.


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## halb

> I have a Vulcan sixty inch range. Six burners, 24" raised griddle, broiler, and double oven.


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## Iceman

WOW. 

It amazes me how many people really need commercial products in their homes.


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## halb

I wouldn't if somebody made a "prosumer" range that had the same reliability and serviceability of a commercial range. From what I see by reading all the complaints, "prosumer" ranges never work for very long (if at all right out of the box) and service for them is not good. That and an exorbitant price tag to boot. IMO they are not made for serious use, only for looks.


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## Iceman

Please excuse my lack of vocabulary skill abilities ... Could you please define _"prosumer"_ for me please?

*TIA.*


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## halb

Prosumer- *pro*fessional con*sumer. *The term refers to any kind of professional equipment that has been redesigned (made less durable/dumbed down/idiot proofed/child proofed, made to comply with consumer protection requirements, etc) and marketed to consumers as "professional grade". While some prosumer equipment can be very good (cameras for instance) and actually bridge the gap between consumer and professional at a cost less than their professional counterpart, others are just poor imitations with a big price tag. I feel that this is where prosumer ranges fit. With so many high end kitchens being built the appliances have to have the look and glitter of the rest of the kitchen. So the market is there and the manufacturers know that if you are going to spend $75k on a kitchen, high price appliances are an easy sell. I seriously doubt that most of these kitchens get a lot of use and the manufacturers know it. So they put their money into looks, not longevity or serviceability.


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## jimyra

IceMan said:


> WOW.
> 
> It amazes me how many people really need commercial products in their homes.


It's not need - it's want.


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## Iceman

Whatever. Same thing.


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## sarahg

Hi Cheflayne,

Gee, thanks for the information. It's very informative.

Some of the more interesting things I was reading here are the myriad descriptions about extreme heat produced by these stoves, the combustion gases, and all of that . . . almost as if they were talking about the kind of food production seen in a 200 seat restaurant and not that in a home. But, I kept thinking that, in a home, no such production would be possible and so those considerations are being somewhat misapplied to a residential environment. The idea behind your point about "475 is 475 in my book" rings quite true: residential use of a commercial appliance will yield residential tolerances and output to some degree.

In other words, if you make a meal for four people on a 6 burner Garland, your commercial unit should produce relatively equivalent heat and combustion gases, etc., found in producing that same meal on a residential unit, give or take. While there certainly are some additional safety considerations one must factor into having a commercial unit in the home, I think many folks are applying a busy Friday night at the nearest 200 seat four-star scenario to a hum-drum Monday night at home fish fry environment. That is, steak for four is steak for four and not for 180 in my view.  

In any case, thanks again for all the information. 

Sarah


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## sarahg

Hi Jimyra,

So, tell me, have you installed your unit as yet? It sounds as though you have. 

How much were the installation costs? Did you involve the code department in your area?

Ok, thanks for the information.

Sarah


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## halb

> Some of the more interesting things I was reading here are the myriad descriptions about extreme heat produced by these stoves, the combustion gases, and all of that . . . almost as if they were talking about the kind of food production seen in a 200 seat restaurant and not that in a home. But, I kept thinking that, in a home, no such production would be possible and so those considerations are being somewhat misapplied to a residential environment. The idea behind your point about "475 is 475 in my book" rings quite true: residential use of a commercial appliance will yield residential tolerances and output to some degree.


I don't quite follow your logic completely here. Yes, commercial ranges do get hot. The sides of the cabinet and oven door don't have the insulation that a residential range does but that insulation is there to protect children and adults who will file lawsuits if they get burned. Commercial ranges have clearance requirements meaning you can't put then right up against your wooden cabinets or combustible wall either.

Commercial burners can be twice as large (BTU wise) as prosumer. But make no mistake, prosumer ranges and even regular residential ranges that are gas fueled still require a vented hood and adequate makeup air otherwise you run the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. A commercial range requires a sizable hood but a prosumer range definitely requires a decent size hood also, certainly more so than the useless excuses (like those part of above the range microwaves) found in many residential kitchens.

I think the whole point here (if you are asking) is that if you are a dedicated chef or cook and you want a range that is reliable and serviceable at a decent cost the only way to get that is to go commercial.


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## Iceman

*Sorry* ... "dedicated chefs or cooks", doing regular "home" cooking, only need quality equipment that operates properly. My


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## cheflayne

IceMan said:


> Ordinary people, even including professionals working at home, don't _need_ commercial. Big heads and egos _want_ commercial. If you've got the money ... make yourself happy. Please don't try to justify it with any other reasons, please.


That is your take on the subject.

My take, not justification because neither I nor my ego need to, is that with commercial I don't have to worry about damaging the finish, I get big sturdy spiders, I get ease of cleaning, lastly it is way simple and I can fix anything that needs fixing although in 25 years that number is zero so far. As to cost, that was a whopping $25 plus some elbow grease, time, naval jelly, and stove paint.

That is my story and I'm sticking to it. Of course your take on my take is up to you. All I know is that my sleep tonight will be undisturbed. ;~)


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## Iceman

I wasn't talking to you. So nahh!


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## cheflayne

_*Oh man!!! *_There goes my sleep!


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## jimyra

sarahg said:


> Hi Jimyra,
> 
> So, tell me, have you installed your unit as yet? It sounds as though you have.
> 
> How much were the installation costs? Did you involve the code department in your area?I
> 
> Ok, thanks for the information.
> 
> Sarah


Yes it is installed. My cost including the equipment was $15,000 +-. I did much of the work myself and some of the materials including the hood were from a demolition job. There is no code department in my area. At one time in my life i worked as an engineer and a licensed contractor. My installation meets national recommended codes. If I were estimating this job for a client I would estimate $30,000 plus for new construction more for rebuild.


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## jimyra

IceMan said:


> *Sorry* ... "dedicated chefs or cooks", doing regular "home" cooking, only need quality equipment that operates properly. My < $400 Kenmore of 20+ years worked absolutely fine in my regular home kitchen for all the family meals I ever made there. It also worked absolutely fine for all the professional work I did at home. Ordinary people, even including professionals working at home, don't _need_ commercial. Big heads and egos _want_ commercial. If you've got the money ... make yourself happy. Please don't try to justify it with any other reasons, please.
> 
> Right now in my new home I've got a _GE True Temp "Spectra XL44"_ that I got for free working a remodel job. I wanted to keep the Kenmore but it was much more work to get it here. It works just fine.
> 
> I'll repeat myself to see if you're reading this entire post ... _"Buy whatever you like. It's OK."_
> 
> _"Skills trump everything else."__"We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."_​


If you want something and can afford it you don't have to justify it. Big heads and egos would apply to many on this site. Skills are nothing if you have nothing to use them with.


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## Iceman

$30,000 for a stove installation?!? Nice work if you can get it. It doesn't make you a better cook though.

_Buy what you want ... It's OK._


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## halb

IceMan said:


> $30,000 for a stove installation?!? Nice work if you can get it. It doesn't make you a better cook though


I've already pointed out that it's quite usual to see kitchens costing upwards of $75K that are just for looks and paid for by people who do takeout every night.


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## Iceman

*LOL.*

_I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU._ All I've been saying _(in this thread and most "knife" threads I've commented in)_, is that $$$ doesn't do anything for skills. You're not any better at cooking, your food doesn't taste any better, if done with more expensive tools, as long as the tools you use are proper. Now ChefLayne is an outlier. He does not fit the general standard spec of people cooking at home. Everyone else not in the 1.4% of outliers like him, don't have any real need for commercial equipment in their kitchens. If you've just _gotta have it_ because it's cool and makes you feel good ... OK ... I get it. Believe it or not, I have some things like that myself. YES, that's right, ME. I have some things that are cool and make me feel good. It's OK.


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## cheflayne

IceMan said:


> Now ChefLayne is an outlier. He does not fit the general standard spec of people cooking at home.


*LOL!!! *I don't know if I should be flattered or insulted. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## Iceman

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## jimyra

IceMan said:


> $30,000 for a stove installation?!? Nice work if you can get it. It doesn't make you a better cook though.
> 
> _Buy what you want ... It's OK._


range 7000. hood 2500, fire suppression 2500, fans 3000, Elec 1500, ducting 5000, Gas 1500, plans and permits 3000 = 26000 plan on a budget of 30000. I agree that $$$ stuff does not make a better cook of a person. It can make it easier and faster.

HalB, What about the ones that buy pre-perpared meals and heat them up in a $75,000 kitchen?


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## halb

Those would be the ones who put it in their $7K oven, wait for the guests to arrive, make sure they all watch as he takes it out, then wait for them to say what a great chef he is.


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