# Best knives???



## zdawgnight

I am sure this has been asked tons of times but I am new to the site and couldnt find it listed. What is the best cutlery set out there? I dont have a price limit but I want a set that will last me. From looking around the Shun Kaji knives look nice but my experience is from messing around in the kitchen so I dont have to many hours working with great quality knives.


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## boar_d_laze

Hi zdawg,

Yes, it gets asked a lot. Unfortunately it's a question based on a false premise. There is no such thing as "the best set out there." Once you get into really good knives, they don't come in block sets. By and large, big, "complete" sets of knives is an idea whose time has passed. Most people don't know how to use all the knives in those sets, and good cutters neither want nor need them.

Don't take this as a slap. It's just a step in learning, and one everyone has to make. In not too long, you'll start thinking of knives in a different way -- one that will save you some money, make your prep easier, your cooking more fun and actually help it improve.

*Sharp Knives Mean Sharpening:*

It seems obvious that good knives in the house would start with good knives in the store, but that's only part of the story. _Sharpening is crucial. _No matter how good, how beautiful, how expensive a knife started, when it's dull it's only a dull knife. All knives get dull. Even knives with exceptional edge holding properties stay sharp only a little longer than knives with good edge properties.

Consequently, how well and how often you're going to sharpen plays a big part in what kinds of knives make sense for you. For that matter, so does a good cutting board (or two or three).

_*Shun Kaji, You Asked:*_

Shun Kaji are among the most expensive knives Williams-Sonoma has to offer. For a cook with good knife skills they are not good value nor are they particularly good performers. Unfortunately, W-S does not have a good selection of good knives, does not sell what knives they have at a good price, and their employees are not knowledgeable about knives. Think of Kaji from W-S as sort of a perfect storm.

_*Let's Talk About You:*_

Before we start figuring out what makes the most sense for you, why don't you talk about yourself a little.

Do you sharpen? If you don't already know how, are you interested in learning to freehand? How much money are you willing to invest in a sharpening kit?

What's the sharpest knife in your house now? How do you keep it sharp? Is it the knife you use to cut onions?

Are you comfortable with a 10" chef's? A 12" slicer? Do you pinch grip? Do you claw? Do you know what "cut and retreat" is? Can you make the "classic" cuts? Do you have any interest in doing so?

Suppose for now that the basic set is a chef's, a slicer, a "petty" or parer, and a bread knife. Do you do enough specialty cutting to need specialty knives, a cimiter for instance? Is there something you might not need but particularly want, like a yanagiba for sashimi?

What's your budget?

_*And At Last, The Good News:*_

If you were serious about a set of Shun Kaji, you won't have any problem putting together a great kit.

Let's talk some more,

BDL


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## zdawgnight

> I Do not sharpen my knives to be honest with you I have have never been taught so I have always been afraid to damage my knives.  I would love to learn to sharpen knives and from what it sounds like a sharpening kit seems important and would be willing to spend whatever amount is appropriate to keep a high quality knife set in good working order.

> I use a santoku henkel twin select most often. I haven't done anything to sharpen it.

> I am comfortable with 10"chefs and 12" slicers. I am comfortable in a claw grip. I don't really know what the technical terms are but I think I am capable with a knife. I am not the fastest but I am interested in doing anything and everything.

>I don't see a need in a cimiter but I do make sushi fairly often and a sashimi or yanagiba knife would definitely help.

It is funny, I thought I knew a lot about cooking and cutting but apparently I am just a beginner. Where would you suggest purchasing great quality knives? Do you have any suggestions on ways to find more information?  Apparently I need all the help I can get thanks for all your time.


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## boar_d_laze

_Knife in the Kitchen_ by Chad Ward is probably the single best book.

Of the major knife forums on the internet, Fred's Cutlery Forum (part of Foodie Forums) is the best; the Knife Forum is a not-that-close second best -- not because there isn't as much good information as at Fred's, but because there's so much more bad information.

Of the cooking sites which also have good knife advice, this one, Chef Talk, is the best. Take a look at the knife articles on _Cook Food Good_, my blog. The knife section is hardly complete, but it may give you some ideas. At risk of immodesty, I'm as good a resource for someone in your position as any.

There are a number of good knife stores, the best ones will be those which combine the knives you want with good prices and good service. Until we know what sort of knives you're looking for, it's hard to get definite. Here are a few good stores (in alphabetical order) I like Chef Knives To Go, Epicurean Edge, Japanese Knife Imports, Japanese Chef's Knives, MadCow Cutlery.

Most of the best knife retailers are on the internet, but many have a few good brick and mortar presence, and there are some other good knife stores scattered through the country. Depending on where you live, one may be close enough to visit. That's a good thing if you want to at least hold a knife before you buy it. Whether or not that's really important or not, depends on a lot of factors.

If your perspective is performance and bang for the buck as opposed to owning "the best," "collecting," and so on, it makes sense to address your knives starting with knife and sharpening skills. However, most people combine the two viewpoints to one extent or another. If you want knives that are better than your knife-handling and sharpening with the idea that you will (or at least can) grow into them -- that's fine.

As to sharpening -- There are two really good ways to go; and a couple of others which are good enough to make pursuing knives with high performance alloys (i.e., knives made in Japan) worthwhile. The first of the good ways is freehanding on bench stones, and the second is buying an _EdgePro Apex_ kit.

If you're handy and enjoy working with tools, freehanding is probably the best choice. But there is a distinct learning curve. It takes a while to learn to reliably sharpen a knife; and somewhat longer to get good at it. An EdgePro is a significant initial outlay, but is very easy to learn; and for almost every practical purpose will allow you to sharpen as well as a very skilled sharpener with only a few blades worth or practice.

A distant third is one of the Chef's Choice electric machines. They are incredibly convenient and capable of producing adequate results by following very simple instructions. That is not to say they aren't without issues.

Some of the pull throughs and "V" ceramic stick systems are okay for relatively inexpensive knives; but since they can't produce the sort of fine, polished edge a really nice knife is capable of taking, it's sort of one or the other.

The hardest knife to choose is the chef's. We should probably start there. You're going to have to decide whether you want a "German" or "French" (which is also a Japanese) profile. _This may help_. I much prefer the French profile and by and large prefer Japanese made knives to those made elsewhere. However, if you're not going to do much in the way of sharpening, a German knife will suit you better.

Unfortunately, there's no good way to shortcut good knife skills. You'll have to ask questions, get advice, perhaps buy a book, pursue videos on you-tube and practice. Reading between the lines, it seems you're starting pretty much from scratch. Not a bad thing, by the way. The first place to start is with the grip. Along with most western style cutters, I favor the "pinch grip" for the chef's knife -- and in my case, that's a very "soft" pinch grip. Try reading through _this post_ and see what you make of it.

If you're interested in going "soup to nuts," just to give you an idea of what you're probably looking at in terms of equipment and expense:

Japanese made (e.g., MAC Pro), western-handled, 24cm (9-1/2"), chef's knife, $160;
Japanese made, western-handled, 27cm (10-1/2"), slicer, $150;
Forschner or MAC bread knife, 10-1/2", $35 or $85;
Japanese, western handled, 6" "petty," $75;
Forschner 3-1/2" paring knife, $10;

End grain "chopping block of adequate size " $75 - $200;
Knife Block, $50'

EdgePro Apex, $200;
Idahone fine ceramic "1200" rod-hone (knife steel), $35; plus

Whatever has so far gone unremarked.
Hope this helps,

BDL


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## bellybones

I received a semi-planned gift for my birthday in June, and think this may be a good place to talk about them.

My husband bought me a set of high carbon steel kitchen knives. Somehow he found this guy in Oregon who hand made them,

and sent along with easy care instructions. They're from Wildfire Cutlery. Apparently

he sells thru Dean and DeLuca in NYC only, and online.

They talked on the phone, I think it was three times, and Michael helped my husband to plan a custom set. I am 4 foot 11, and wanted knives with smaller

handles and now I have them. I got a boning knife, a paring knife, a knife that I believe is 1 1/2" x 7 , along with a 6 inch kitchen knife that does all i need. It is around

2 1/2 " wide and is my main tool now. I have some experience with carbon steel, and with the care instructions, we now can easily take care of the surface  with bonami,

and the edge. He told us that the edge, if properly honed, will never need to be resharpened or rebeveled, as he called it . I always wonder when someone says never, but it all did make sense. Now we simply use our sharpening stick a few strokes, and that good edge is back. I am never using stainless again.
Overall I am quite pleased with my set.

Oh yes, the wood on the handles is rosewood ( ?? ) , which is dark brown . We could have gotten murtle wood but ...

It took a week for Michael to complete the work and ship. Highly recommended.


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## chrislehrer

Bellybones,

They sound lovely. Just one thing: there is no such animal as a knife that never needs to be resharpened, with or without honing. It's an impossibility, for somewhat the same reasons as a perpetual-motion machine is impossible. The only knife that doesn't need to be resharpened periodically is the knife that never gets used.


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## phaedrus

Yes, "never" is a long time.  All knives will dull eventually if they're being used.  The blade is much harder than, say, a chicken breast, but over time it adds up.  The Grand Canyon was carved by running water- the same thing will happen to your knives


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## boar_d_laze

[Deleted]


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## zdawgnight

After many an hour looking around at knives and sharpeners, I feel like I am even further lost! I can honestly say now that the want for a "complete set" seems incredibly dumb... unfortunately I have found out how little I really know about knives and cooking in general. I did look at the chefs knives to go and wow do I have a lot of options....hmmmmm I can say this much I like the looks of the Glestain Chef knife I think what I would want is a brusier type of chef knife (not sure if the Glestain counts) and something else for more delicate cuts  ( sushi/sashimi knife??). I couldnt find much in the slicer department. The petty and parring seem easy enough.. Now for the sharpeners I looked at the EdgePro Apex and I did like it. I also looked at the sharpening stones whichh also looked great. My new dilemna is which to go with? The EdgePro looks easy and not so much preparation. For the stones there is something majestic about it that inrigues me. I am sure this sounds nieve but I watched a video and it didnt look to difficult. I also have a couple old knives that would perfect to test on. My question with the stones is which grits are neccessary (1000, 5000) and at what point would it be worth it to go stones over EdgePro?... How often should I be sharpening my knives or is it just a feel thing?  On a side note if I am sharpening knives that have scalloping would there be things I'd need to worry about or would I do sharpen them the same?

Thanks BellyBones for sharing the Wildfire Cutlery, I wasn't even aware that I could purchase custom knives. I was a huge fan of the California buckeye handles they are gorgeous.

I kind of have a feel of what may help in steering towards the correct knives for me. I am lefthanded (not sure if that is important), I do a lot of chopping (onions, green peppers, garlic....) the usual suspects. I tend to lean towards a rustic style of cooking but now and again I like making sushi and sashimi. I guess what I am looking for is a group of knives that can allow me to hit both ends of the cutting spectrum.

Alright I think that is all the questions I can think of for now... Thanks for all your help and unput!


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## bellybones

View this vid before reading this






*Sorry about not getting back sooner. I hope I understand the flow here but ...*

*I will clarify 'never', as this one got me also when I first heard it. Michael clarified for my husband and he told me - 
and I am paraphrasing here. *

*He said well heat treated knives should hold a noticeably good edge, and then should be easy to 'brighten ' up when dull . *

*He said brighten up means give it a honing and it cuts again. A honing is not in any way a sharpening. Hone means working on the very edge, not the bevel. *

*Some people hone after sharpening whiloe others such a as a barber hone their razors solely. Michael said his edges are so*

*fine and the bevel is so small that it is easy to maintain it with slight care.*

*Personally, after dulling my knives, just do a few strokes with a steel and the edge is back. These days I usually just hone before starting if the edge*

*fails my thumb pluck test. *

*It may be sharper after a full on sharpening rather than a honing, but the honed edge is sharp sharp and works for me.
They always cuts really well. I think the point ( at least the way I interpreted it and am doing it now ) is that if I*

*hone with the correct bevel, then I can do this system forever ( hence no sharpening ) . Dull, hone, dull hone ...
Personally, I do not obsess over the angle. All I know it that the edge is there after I take 20 seconds to hone, and I am delighted at this. it works for me. *

*It did not work for my Globals ( $%$#@!!!) . I could have sawed all day before they were re-honed.
If one did not hone with the correct angle, one could then roll the edge or literally sharpen any edge right off and ruin the bevel.
One can get an idiot proof honer anywhere or contact the knife guy. He was sooo nic to my husband. *

*Lastly, my hub is left handed, and he uses my knives just fine. Both sides of the knife are the same !! ope this helps. I asked my husband to*

*write something which he flatly refuses, so I would refer you to my knife maker for any questions. *


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## boar_d_laze

Sounds like you're thinking has evolved a great deal.


> _I can honestly say now that the want for a "complete set" seems incredibly dumb... unfortunately I have found out how little I really know about knives and cooking in general._


You still want a set, but you're not so hot to buy all from the same line or to rely on the manufacturer to make you choices. Good.

_*Chef's:*_

Glestains:

They were very popular during the first move to Japanese knives, but that's waned quite a bit. They're made from Acuto 440, an alloy which, like the knife, seems to have passed its prime. Edge taking is decent, and so is edge holding -- better than you'd find in a German knife but at the bottom of the middle for Japanese manufacturers. Not good at all, considering the price.

The blade itself is on the thick side, especially at the heel.

The blade profile is okay, but nothing to write home about.

Their dimpled pattern, which is a sort of marriage between kullenschiffen and _tsuchime_, actually works about as well as anything to keep wet food from sticking. (Knives made by the actual Granton Knife Company are their only real competitioon in that respect.) Some people find the handle jams their hand uncomfortably into the back of the blade.

Is it a "bruiser knife?" I don't know. What's a bruiser knife? It's not a chef de chef, a "lobster cracker," or a "western deba." It won't take as much abuse as a Wusthof Classic or Henckels Pro S, either. If you do a lot of heavy duty tasks, you're best off with need a separate, heavy duty knife.

In my opinion, the knife is overweight, overpriced, and there are a great many better choices. If you want a heavy, western-handled chef's (yo-gyuto) tsuchime style knife, Yoshikanes and the dimpled Takayukis are both better. At least with the Yoshikane you get an incredibly durable edge.

For someone looking for their first, good, stainless, western-handled, Japanese knife, I usually recommend MAC Pro or Masamoto VG. Whether or not they should be on your short list, depends on you.

Rather than taking a scatter shot approach where the other guys and I analyze every knife you see, or we all push our favorites on you, it would be helpful if you could identify a few characteristics which are at the very top of your list for what you want. For instance, a profile that will help you learn good skills, blade stiffness, ease of sharpening, handle comfort, "heft," appearance (plain, tsuchime, "Damascus," kurouchi), something you can use to split chickens, and so on.

_*Yanagibi, Probably Not:*_


> _I think what I would want is ... something else for more delicate cuts ( sushi/sashimi knife??). _


At this stage you certainly don't want a traditional, chisel-edged, "sushi/sashimi" knife. Sujibiki (aka suji) is the Japanese name for a slicer, and is plenty good enough for doing fish work as well as all of the usual portioning and trimming tasks.

What do you mean by "more delicate cuts?" An ultra fine edge for glass smooth cuts in fish? If so, you can get a little more performances out of a chisel-edged yanagiba than a suji -- but it's such a huge can of worms I don't want to go there unless you're planning on eating lots of raw fish.

_*The Black Hole We Call Sharpening:*_


> _Now for the sharpeners I looked at the EdgePro Apex and I did like it. I also looked at the sharpening stones whichh also looked great. My new dilemna is which to go with? The EdgePro looks easy and not so much preparation. For the stones there is something majestic about it that inrigues me. I am sure this sounds nieve but I watched a video and it didnt look to difficult._


Sharpening freehand on bench stones is ultimately more versatile than using an EP. It's also more satisfying at some level. It's not actually that difficult either, all it requires is practice to develop basic competency. It's less expensive starting out too, since you can go relatively piecemeal while the EP is pretty much an _all at once_ proposition.

At its most basic, freehanding is just rubbing a knife against a rock. Not much of a conceptual challenge.

However, it takes most people a few months to get to the point where they're consistently sharpening their knives sharper than they were when they started a given sharpening sessions; and a LOT of practice -- at least a year -- to get very good with stones, i.e., where you're consistently sharpening as well or better than you would be with an EP after half a dozen knives. Unless you're going to buy chisel edged, or otherwise unusual knives, you don't kneed the extra versatility.

Also, you'll probably end up spending more on stones and other sharpening stuff as you would on an EP. For instance, the "new, replacement value" of my oilstone set, waterstone set, stropping set, and two rod hones, is around $800.

Guiding most people toward the right pick is usually pretty easy. It's really more about personality than results. But you're a tough read, and at this stage I can't say which would work better for you in the long run. Either way, you'll get your knife sharp. It does sound as if you're leaning towards bench stones, but as there's no hurry on pulling the trigger yet, you can ask more questions while the subject percolates.

BDL


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## zdawgnight

Rather than taking a scatter shot approach where the other guys and I analyze every knife you see, or we all push our favorites on you, it would be helpful if you could identify a few characteristics which are at the very top of your list for what you want.  For instance, a profile that will help you learn good skills, blade stiffness, ease of sharpening, handle comfort, "heft," appearance (plain, tsuchime, "Damascus," kurouchi), something you can use to split chickens, and so on. 

This is much tougher than I thought. 

BDL from your list of characteristics to consider let me try and set where I stand.

Profile that will help learn good skills...... I do not really understand this. How do I look for a knife that would help my cutting skills?

Blade stiffness..................................... What are the advantages in very stiff blade vs. a not so stiff blade?

ease of sharpening............................... I do plan on sharpening my own knives so I this could potentially be important

handle comfort..................................... I have relatively thick hands and do rank this as one of the more important traits (I like western style)

heft......................................................hmmmm I think I would prefer a heavier knife

Appearance.......................................... I like the tsuchime and the Damascus look. I am not a huge fan of the kurouchi. Is there advantage to one?

Most of my cutting is of vegetables. I might do a little bit of bone cutting but not much.

For someone looking for their first, good, stainless, western-handled, Japanese knife, I usually recommend MAC Pro or Masamoto VG.  Whether or not they should be on your short list, depends on you.

          I have looked at the MAC Pro and Masamoto VG both looked like good choices. What is the difference between say the MAC Pro and the MAC ultimate other than about $30? or the Masamoto VG and Masamoto white steel honyaki other than $1000?  Im sure you all have realized I am not a master chef. Would I be able to tell the difference in these types of knives? I would be willing to spend 30 but 1000 seems a bit over board for one of my skill level...... the way I have been shopping around so far is from suggestions or from appearance so far.

Hiromoto Tenmi-Jyuraku 210mm Gyuto I found this knife. I am not sure if it is a good quality but it caught my eye. Past looks I dont know what makes a good knife. I am partial to the Damascus look but it isnt that important to me.

I also like the Yoshikane's you posted

If a good quality slicer would take care of my sushi making hobby than definately there is not need for a special knife. I was thinking Kikuichi Elite Carbon Sujihiki 270mm.

For a sharpener I am definately leaning towards the stones. wat would I need to get started? My concern is would I be able to tell the difference between a good stone sharpening and the EdgePro.  If not than I will prob. go with the EdgePro. I can always grow into stones.

On a side note this has been a lot of fun looking at all the types of knives, sharpening kits and other accessories. I feel like a kid in a candy store.

Again Thanks for all the advice.


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## boar_d_laze

zdawg,

I've been taking my time trying to figure out how best to answer you. I think the way I've been asking you to break things down hasn't done you much of a service -- instead only made the whole thing more confusing.

If you want knives with "heft," you're probably better staying with western made knives than going with Japanese. On the other hand, if -- like me -- you believe that sharpness trumps weight for almost every task, you'll choose the Asian made knives. My preference isn't the issue, and you want it all without enough background to pick between them.

For most people "heft" only feels good for the first minute or so, but loses its charm quickly. Balance is similar but not quite the same. The more skilled you are, and the lighter the knife, the less important the position of the actual balance point becomes.

Of course you want good skills. My preference is for a "French" profile (which is also a Japanese profile, by the way) chef's knife because it promotes a certain kind of chopping action. But plenty of people like a German profile and use it beautifully; some, many even, with much better skills than mine.

You seem to like knives with tsuchime (hammered) and suminagashi ("Damascus") patterns. I don't. For that matter I don't like san-mai construction, which is something all (as a practical matter) of the patterened knives share. It's very unlikely you'd even notice the issue with san-mai, and the patterning is simply taste. I can't really handicap the knives for you because I don't know many of them well.

My original thought was to go ahead with a list of different chef's knives which might be good choices for you, including a short analysis of each; but I might as well stop with the one obvious, best choice.

_Yoshikane_: A Japanese made yo-gyuto with san-mai (three layer) construction, and a tsuchime finish.

The middle, edge layer ("hagane") is made from a "high speed tool steel" (aka HSS) called SKD-11, itself a variant of D2. The steel is quite tough, and Yoshikane hardens it about as far as it should be reasonably taken. It manages to combine most of the best aspects of the alloys German and Japanese makers use in one knife.

The edge is quite long-lasting. So much so as to border on amazing.

A Yoshikane edge will resist going out of true, but when it does is somewhat amenable to steeling. You'll need an appropriate steel (fortunately not too expensive), and if you really push the edge over, you'll need to treat the "roll" in the same way as a chip and sharpen it out. Also, it resists chipping mightily.

SKD-11 It can be sharpened very sharp, and sharpens fairly easily on waterstones; oilstones are more difficult, especially in the higher grits. It can take and hold a higher degree of polish than you'll ever put on it.

As yo-gyutos go, the knife is fairly heavy. It's also well suited for moderately heavy-duty tasks. There's no need to be avoid anything you'd try with a Wusthof Classic. If you do manage to chip the edge, the chip won't go under the jigane (outer layers), and repair will be neither extensive nor difficult.

F&F is good but not great. It's not a Henckels, that's just how it is.

Handle is better than average as most Japanese knives go -- it's not the world's greatest -- doesn't compare with MAC, Masamoto, Sabatier or any of the German "classics," but it's not too narrow as many Japanese western handles are. By the way, an uncomfortable handle is the reason we're not talking about the Takayuki tsuchime as well.

The blade profile (it's "French") is more than usable; very good, if not quite among the best Japanese efforts.

Where the knife reall falls down is in blade cross section and edge profle. It's thick especially at the heel, and tends to wedge. Again -- a good knife, but not exactly a joy to use.

The _"wa" Japanese handled version_ (also,_ look here for an octagonal handled version _good for righties and lefties) is much better in terms of thickness which makes them a much better knife overall. Many people consider them as one of the best wa-gyutos. Even with the caveat that wa-gyutos balance forward compared to western-handled knives, and considering everything you seem to want, both Yoshikanes should probably be top two on your short list with a nod to the wa-gyuto over the yo-gyuto.

My other chef knife suggestions for you are the Hattori HD, Kikuichi TKC, MAC Pro, and Masamoto VG-10. They are all western handled knives, lighter, less abuse resistant, better handling, and with thinner blades than the Yoshikane yo-gyuto. Also, all are available through Chef Knives To Go, which is a good thing. The Hattori is a very well done suminagashi; the TKC is a typical, well made, "mono-steel" wa-gyuto but the alloy is an HSS. The MAC and Masamoto are both extremely well excecuted versions of the same yo-gyuto idea with similar but not identical virtues. I most often recommend MAC.

Let's nail down the chef's before we go farther.

What do you think so far?

BDL


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## tylerm713

BDL is absolutely the best source of knife information. Whatever knife he guides you toward will be wonderful.

I would like to give my two cents, however. First, if you are buying your first serious chef's knife, I would encourage you to spend a little less and get proficient with it before making a large investment. Basically any knife you pick up will be the best knife you have ever used. You won't realize that there are better knives out there. Not until you become more technically capable will you be able to get everything out of a higher end blade. I learned all this by experience. I was convinced that I wanted a heavy German profile knife and was ready to spend frankly too much money on a knife. Instead, I bought a 8" Global from Bed Bath & Beyond with a 20% off coupon, which brought the cost down to less than $80. It's extremely light and nimble. It was very sharp out of the box. I know there are knives made of better steel, but with the skills I have, it doesn't matter.


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## zdawgnight

I thought about knives a lot this past weekend. I do my best research on something else while I am supposed to be studying (2 exams this week). I . I think the right knife for me is the MAC PRO or the Hattori HD. I like the look of the Hattori HD but the handle and price of the MAC PRO. If they are equally as good knives than the MAC PRO.

BDL you are good. Hopefully your not giving up on me yet!

tylerm713 -- I agree with you to some degree. I know I dont neccessarily have the skills to tell a great knife from a mediocre knife but my philosphy has always been get the best and in the long run you will save money. In this case I might not need the best because there is a very good level that I am willing to spend at. I would be happy to spend $200 for a knife that I would have no regrets owning.


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## tylerm713

zdawgnight said:


> my philosphy has always been get the best and in the long run you will save money. In this case I might not need the best because there is a very good level that I am willing to spend at. I would be happy to spend $200 for a knife that I would have no regrets owning.


Hard to argue there.


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## richard2010

Wow brilliant thread.

Been looking to buy knifes for a long time and since I'm a complete neophyte I didn't even know what to look for.

Better now!


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## zdawgnight

I know it has been a while, but I figured it is time for an update. I just put an order to chefknivestogo.com for my 1st step towards my knife set. I purchased the apex pro knife sharpening kit and a mac pro 5" paring. I wanted to get the mac pro chef's knife but my fiance wouldn't allow me purchase it as she wants the knives to part of our gift registry for our eventual wedding (im getting used to things being done on her time already). At least I was allowed to get a start on my set... and now I can sharpen my old fellas. I'll put more updates as I go.


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## chrislehrer

Warn your fiancee that the knives you're interested in probably aren't available via a registry. But on the other hand, if they are available that way -- things change rapidly in this sort of area -- register for the best and cross your fingers.

Incidentally, congrats!


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## zdawgnight

Thank you very much chris. I actually asked her to marry me this past weekend so I have been riding her happy mood as much as possible (which is why I was able to get the sharpener and a the 1st piece to my knife kit the petty). She was talking about some website where you can register for things that aren't available through real gift registries. So I am hoping right now... I might try to grab the mac bread knife before any wedding gifts materialize. I dont really have even a decent one so far. So that means I'll probably wait on a chef's knife and a slicer. I still haven't figured out which route to go with the slicer but I am quite excited to be finally making some moves forward in kitchen happiness.


----------



## zdawgnight

I have had the opportunity to try out my new sharpening system (apex pro). I sharpened an old henkels santoku and a nice relic the mighty oak by imperial chef's knife. Im pretty sure the mighty oak is about 10 years older then I am (im 24) so it needed a lot of work. I am quite happy with my 1st attempt to sharpen the blades and now that my fiance are looking toward registering for our wedding I am hoping you all can help me out yet again.

I have so far I enjoy the MAC pro 5" paring knife and I like the handle on it so the MAC pro mighty 9.5" will be my Chef's knife.

My new challenge is what do I do about a slicer? As boar_d_laze suggested a Sujihikis seems like a nice way to go but other than that I'm shooting in the dark.

For those looking for guidance through my ignorance in knife shopping, my biggest suggestion would be once you think you have decided, sit back and think it over a while. I was so sure I wanted to get into sharpening stones, after I sat down and thought about it, I knew I wasn't going to put the effort deserved to become a skilled sharpener... so the apex pro was the smarter desicion for me at this time. As for the chef's knife I have yet to get it but I am looking forward to utilizing boar_d_laze's advice.

Thanks


----------



## phaedrus

The Edge Pro Apex is a fine tool and will serve you well.  It will get a knife extremely sharp if you do your part.  It's a bit like chess, too- the basics are easily learned but you can spend years mastering it.  No, it won't take years to get good but as your sharpening knowledge increases, the EP will grow with you.

I find a sujihiki very useful, both in a pro kitchen and at home.  Not sure what to recommend that might be on a gift registry, though.


----------



## zdawgnight

I dont neccesarily need it for the registry, I just want to have the things that I need known (and bought) so that we can go forward from there, If that makes sense.. Like  a cutting board, knife block etc... Plus knives are one of the few things I'll have control over so I want what good not whats easiest to get and I am fine buying my own.


----------



## lasvegaschef1

I have been a professional chef for over 25 years.  I trained in France at LCB.  We were taught there that the knife is an extension of your hand.  Only 4 or 5 knives are really necessary for the home cook.  A chef's knive is the place to start followed by a paring knife.  A bread knife with a serrated edge is the third knife needed.  Depending upon the type of cooking you do; a boning or filet knife, a Santuko or a utility knife might complete your needs. 

I own dozens of knives from Global to Shun to Glestian to Nenox.  Recently, I ate at a friends restaurant in Vegas, where I now make my home.  I ordered a ribeye and was given a beautiful steak knife to use.  This knife cut through the steak better than any other steak knife I have ever used.  It was made my New West Knifeworks.  I went into the kitchen and spoke with my friend and he showed me his 9" chefs knife and 7" santuko also from New West.  The knives felt great in my hand and really worked great on the board with vegetables, 

I came home and ordered a knife from Newwestkinfeworks.com to try out for myself.  They have 2 lines of knives.  I bought the one with the Damascus blade.  I have since bought 2 others from New West and they are the main knives I use in my kitchen for my daily work. 

They are an American company based in Wyoming and the give a lifetime guarantee on their knives.  I can also send my knife back for a free tune up anytime I want.  Besides looking great- I got knives with a HOT "red" handle the perform better than any other knives in my drawer.

I hope this info is useful.


----------



## zdawgnight

Yeah that definitely helps lasvegaschef1, I have yet to buy my set full of knives so the more input and suggestions I get, the more successful I will be at making a decision I will be happy with (although at this point it looks like there are many that would make me happy). Those knives are gorgeous and have become a contender for some spots in my kitchen. Thanks


----------



## chutney

Wow, you have my knife. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif I have the red handled "9". It is a great all round knife, but the knife I use more is the mini-paring knife(flamingo handle). I do salads and cold prep. The mini-parer is always in my pocket. I am thinking of adding the Bread knife. I don't want to sound like an ad, but I have been happy with the "9" and thinking of selling my 8" Shun, although I like the feel of the Shun. How many knives do I need anyway? Wait I'm asking the wrong people. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


----------



## lasvegaschef1

Please let me know if you get that bread knife- I really would like to know how it works out for you.  I have had my Glestian chefs knife for more years than I can count and will always love it; the 9" from NewWest is simply amazing.  They have some new knife sets with COCOBOLO handles & blocks that look amazing.  I hope to meet up with them at a trade show so I can demo the entire line.  LAS VEGAS CHEF1 - OUT


----------



## theslowcooker

[quote name="Phaedrus" url="/forum/thread/62387/best-knives#post_343190"]
The Edge Pro Apex is a fine tool and will serve you well. It will get a knife extremely sharp if you do your part. It's a bit like chess, too- the basics are easily learned but you can spend years mastering it. No, it won't take years to get good but as your sharpening knowledge increases, the EP will grow with you.

I find a sujihiki very useful, both in a pro kitchen and at home. Not sure what to recommend that might be on a gift registry, though.
[/quote]

I 2nd that. The EdgePro is the best thing ever. I would suggest buying this before you even get a knife set


----------



## anoop

boar_d_laze said:


> _*Shun Kaji, You Asked:*_
> 
> Shun Kaji are among the most expensive knives Williams-Sonoma has to offer. For a cook with good knife skills they are not good value nor are they particularly good performers. Unfortunately, W-S does not have a good selection of good knives, does not sell what knives they have at a good price, and their employees are not knowledgeable about knives. Think of Kaji from W-S as sort of a perfect storm.


What do you mean when you say "perfect storm"? I ask because I'm kind of in the same boat. I can afford to pay a lot but I don't know anything about knives. I really liked the Shun Kaji at W-S (mainly because they were super-light compared to everything else) but thought I should do more research before spending so much money. I only cut fruits (oranges, avocado, etc.) and vegetables. I only have 2 knives now and they are the cheap grocery store kind and which are now very dull. I've also looked at the Wustof and some of the other knives at W-S and Sur La Table but none of those appealed to me.

I never used to cook and only started about 6-8 months ago mainly because I now have a very restricted diet and have trouble finding good food in restaurants.

If not the Shun Kaji, what would you recommend? I'm looking for the Honda Civic of knives. (I'm sure the Shun Kaji is probably more like a BMW, but a Civic would probably be enough).

Also since I'm just getting started with cooking I have very little knifing skills. Where would be a good place to learn those? I get scared of I'll have a knife accident...especially with these big, sharp knives.


----------



## petemccracken

I like MAC knives, and this MAC starter set is an inexpensive way to try them out


----------



## capsaicin

I'm pretty sure Fujiwara FKM and the Tojiro DP series would be fairly described as the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla of J-knives.


----------



## zdawgnight

anoop-I wouldnt say I am fantastic or even good but I can hold my own when it regards knife skills. I learned the real basics from watching my parents and food network but also check out youtube there are some pretty solid videos on there. Also read in detail parts of this thread above and you'll prob. not want to get what you originally were after. There is a lot more out there for much cheaper. I am obviously no expert but this website is amazing for information. I'd also like to share that my 1st quality knife I bought was a MAC petty and wow it is a dream to work with.

On a side note If anyone could suggest a good japanese slicer I would be much obliged. I have been looking for a while now with no sure sign....I was looking at a carbon steel one for a while but Im not sure if it would be worth the effort for me.?


----------



## anoop

zdawgnight said:


> [..] I am obviously no expert but this website is amazing for information. I'd also like to share that my 1st quality knife I bought was a MAC petty and wow it is a dream to work with.


Indeed I found this website very useful when I was researching cooking pots. I eventually settled on Fissler and only bought 2 pots of which I only use one regularly.

Thanks for sharing the info about the MAC. So far, I think I like looks of the Tojiro DP (suggested in a reply to this thread) better. Call me shallow, but I kind of prefer things look aesthetic. 

At this point, it almost feels like I can get away with a couple of utility knives for what I'm looking to do.


----------



## capsaicin

I have a Misono Swedish steel 300mm sujihiki and absolutely love it.  First thing I used it for when I got it was corned beef, which put a nice purple patina on it.  Care is not too bad -- wash and wipe dry, and place in saya after each use.


----------



## v lou tay

Dont get to caught up in all the knife nonsense. Tojiros and Fujiwaras are fine knives and in the hands of someone with good knife skills fine everyday professional tools.I've seen more young cooks walk in to my kitchen with beautiful J knives that all have lousy edges than I care to admit. My advice would be to by something like a fujiwara/tojiro and spend the time and energy learning how to get the most out of them.

Cheap and sharp beats expensive and dull any day. Understand it's perspective, most professional kitchens at one time or another have had some sort of knife service, heavily ground, cheap steel knives. They probley are the backbone of the industry here in the Midwest. Now take a cook whose experience has been these knives and give him a sharp Forschner. It's typically a big jump in quality, easily recognizable by most everyone who uses it. Give that same person a entry level J knife and the Revelation is even more pronounced.

My point is that many of the contributors in this forum want to bash the Honda's and Toyota's of the knife world which is foolhardy to say the least.Now don't get me wrong, many of the regular contributors are well informed and sensible( BDL, phadeus, Mark from CKTG come to mind ) very learned and with a solid professional prospective but many are just shooting their mouth of with no real understanding.

For most of us it doesn't stop at one knife, just begins there. Go to a reputable website, buy something reasonable and live with it for a while. Chances are you'll form your own opinion, figure out what you really like in a knife and before you know it you'll be driving your Honda to the knife store for some more knives.


----------



## anoop

Are there any "brick and mortar" stores that carry Tojiros and Fujiwaras?  Or would I pretty much have to order them over the 'net.  I kind of like to see before I buy, even if it's a few dollars more.  Would like to see how it feels in the hand.


----------



## capsaicin

They have them in various stores in New York Chinatown, because those stores also supply the sushi places owned and operated by Chinese immigrants.  Chances are quite good that the same would be true of Chinatowns in whatever major city you live closest to.

You can price out what you want, go to one of these, ask to handle the thing, and decide then where to buy it.  In Chinatown stores, you also typically have the option to offer to pay cash for a small discount (maybe $5 or $10 off depending on the sale amount).  Just know that that means that as far as the store is concerned, the sale never happened, so there would be no taking it back if you do that.

If the prices are as good or better online and you decide you like them, by all means handle them at the store and then go home and order them.  Chinatown stores are not known for having return policies.


----------



## sarahg

Well, I love my knives.  I have several different makes and kinds, but I find myself using my 10inch Mercer, standard Le Cordon Bleu issue, accept for the length of course, and I really like it a lot.  It keeps a fairly decent edge, so long as you hone it and take care of it...  It also has pretty good balance and is very maneuverable; it feels good in the hand.  She's my pet lol...


----------



## anoop

How did I get this weird cupcake avatar?  I don't remember setting it.


----------



## anoop

Capsaicin said:


> I'm pretty sure Fujiwara FKM and the Tojiro DP series would be fairly described as the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla of J-knives.


Which would you pick between those two and where would you recommend ordering them from online? I don't think I'm going to be able to get to a Chinatown any time soon.


----------



## capsaicin

Each has its good points.

Tojiro has a harder edge (60-61) in VG10 which is pretty much stainless, while the Fujiwara FKM stainless line is a little softer (58-59).  Fujiwara carbons are about 60 but you'll need to take care of it.

Tojiro has handles that some people find uncomfortable.  I'm okay with them.  It's also clad construction while the Fujiwaras are monosteel.  Don't know if that makes a difference to you.

If you want stainless I'd go Tojiro.  If you are willing to take care of non-stainless steel, then it's pretty much even in my opinion.


----------



## anoop

Capsaicin said:


> Each has its good points.
> 
> Tojiro has a harder edge (60-61) in VG10 which is pretty much stainless, while the Fujiwara FKM stainless line is a little softer (58-59). Fujiwara carbons are about 60 but you'll need to take care of it.
> 
> Tojiro has handles that some people find uncomfortable. I'm okay with them. It's also clad construction while the Fujiwaras are monosteel. Don't know if that makes a difference to you.
> 
> If you want stainless I'd go Tojiro. If you are willing to take care of non-stainless steel, then it's pretty much even in my opinion.


Thanks.

What sort of care needs to be taken for the Fujiwara? I would definitely prefer something that doesn't require a lot of careful handling, I tend to leave my knives along with other utensils rinsed in the sink until I get down to actually washing them at the end of the day.


----------



## capsaicin

Fujiwara makes both stainless (FKM line) and high carbon non-stainless (FKH line).

Carbons need to be cleaned and dried basically as soon as you can.  Leaving one in a sink wet for hours invites rust.


----------



## v lou tay

Anoop

Care for carbon steel isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. You need to be careful to avoid prolonged exposure to acidic enviroments and not let them remain wet for to long as this invites rust. I would however caution against leaving your knives in a sink. It's a bad practice at best, never know when someone puts there hand in there looking for something and isn't careful. I've seen bad cuts happen that way. In fact in my kitchen, it's a fast way to get fired or even worse your fellow cooks/dishwashers pissed at you.

If your not going to take care of your tools just buy some Forchners and save your money


----------



## capsaicin

If you're going to go cheap, might as well go cheap all the way with the $12 Miu stamped.

Most Japanese knives, including the Tojiros and Fujiwaras, have a very different geometry than what most people are used to -- much flatter edge.  While the Forschner is a perfectly respectable option in either home or pro kitchens, it still has a lot of belly.  So it depends on what the guy is looking for.


----------



## anoop

Capsaicin said:


> Fujiwara makes both stainless (FKM line) and high carbon non-stainless (FKH line).
> 
> Carbons need to be cleaned and dried basically as soon as you can. Leaving one in a sink wet for hours invites rust.


I guess I was looking at the FKM...since they are both stainless, I guess

the FKM might be better because of the handles?

Anyway, I think I will order a petty knife and see how that feels before buying

anything else. These guys seem to have it for $35.00 which is cheaper

than the Tojiro and other websites that sell the Fujiwara.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html


----------



## anoop

V lou tay said:


> Anoop
> 
> Care for carbon steel isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. You need to be careful to avoid prolonged exposure to acidic enviroments and not let them remain wet for to long as this invites rust. I would however caution against leaving your knives in a sink. It's a bad practice at best, never know when someone puts there hand in there looking for something and isn't careful. I've seen bad cuts happen that way. In fact in my kitchen, it's a fast way to get fired or even worse your fellow cooks/dishwashers pissed at you.
> 
> If your not going to take care of your tools just buy some Forchners and save your money


What about washing immediately, but then letting it air-dry as opposed to wiping it? Would that be acceptable for stainless steel, or does even doing that affect the edge? Right now I always wash my dishes by hand and leave them to air dry.


----------



## capsaicin

If you air dry carbon right after you wash it without wiping, there will always be droplets on the blade, which tend to form rust spots or rings during air drying.  It gets a little better as it patinas over time, but still...

Just run the flats lightly against a paper towel or kitchen towel after you wash it and you should be fine.  I have some carbon knives and am okay with them.  But they are not for everyone.

For stainless -- I air dry my VG10 knives, and all other stainless knives, exactly as you described, and have never had a problem with them.

The handle is a personal thing.  You might be fine with them.  I am.  And since it's just pakkawood you can always sand them down to a different shape if you really wanted to.

I have big hands though so that might be a factor.  People complain about the Tojiro handles being "blocky."  I find them no less comfortable than other Western style knives I have used.


----------



## anoop

I don't believe in sanding and other mods...prefer to have something feel approximately right from the get go.  I don't really do too much cutting, so unless the handle is unusually bad, I probably won't have a problem with it.  I' think I'll order the FKM petty and see how that goes.  I looked up the MIU and don't like the way it looks...I think the Fujiwara/Tojiro are really the place I want to be...they look like the beginning of the "high end knives".  I just wish they were available locally, but looks like I'll have to go to the Internet.

Thanks for all the advice/inputs.


----------



## v lou tay

I'm sure you'll like it. I've got a couple Fujiwaras in my knife kit that I use most everyday. Good bang for your buck


----------



## anoop

Just placed the order for the Fujiwara FKM 120 mm Petty.  Unfortunately they are closed till Tuesday, so I probably won't see it till the end of next week.


----------



## capsaicin

They are both very good lines and excellent values, and I'm sure you will enjoy it and subsequent J-knives enormously.

Eventually you will need to sharpen them.  Feel free to ask the board for advice on that when you come to it.

Welcome to the world of Japanese knives and a happy Fourth!


----------



## anoop

I got my Fujiwara Petty Knife a few weeks ago.  It came directly from Japan

and was packaged quite nicely.  Looks and finish are pretty good.

I find the handle a little small, but it's not a big deal since I don't do

a lot of chopping.  I am a bit underwhelmed by the sharpness.  It is

definitely not as sharp as the Wustof/Shun chef knife testers I used

at the stores.  It definitely takes some effort getting through things like

carrots and sweet potatoes.

Maybe I'll take it some place to get it sharpened.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Too bad your knife didn't come sharp OOTB (out of the box). For several reasons, many Japanese made knives don't -- which a lot of westerners find disappointing. However Fujiwaras have the rep of arriving fairly sharp. Whatever. That train's already left the station and left with tear stained cheeks and a dull knife.

So, yes. Get it _properly sharpened _and it will put a Wusthof factory edge to shame, because the knife is thinner AND sharpened to a more acute angle. For the same reasons, plus its additional hardness, it will stay sharper through considerably more work.

Because every knife gets dull eventually, you can't get the benefit out of a quality blade unless you learn to sharpen yourself, or have someone very good do it for you on a regular basis. Until you learn, look for someone who has experience with Japanese made knives besides Shun and Global. You want someone with a picky clientele; ideally someone who sharpens by hand.

Enjoy your new knife and use it in good health,

BDL


----------



## lennyd

anoop said:


> I got my Fujiwara Petty Knife a few weeks ago. It came directly from Japan
> 
> and was packaged quite nicely. Looks and finish are pretty good.
> 
> I find the handle a little small, but it's not a big deal since I don't do
> 
> a lot of chopping. I am a bit underwhelmed by the sharpness. It is
> 
> definitely not as sharp as the Wustof/Shun chef knife testers I used
> 
> at the stores. It definitely takes some effort getting through things like
> 
> carrots and sweet potatoes.
> 
> Maybe I'll take it some place to get it sharpened.


Seems odd since the Fujiwara FKM Gyuto I got the end of last year was pretty sharp OOTB, or at least much sharper than the Henckels/Wustofs I have experienced in the past.

Still with a little time and effort sharpening it is razor sharp, and a pleasure to use.

I do not have a Fujiwara petty, but the handle on the Tojiro DP petty I do seems a bit small, but does grow on you, and is very comfortable for it's intended use.

Remember these are more of a entry level J Knife, and much as they are a great step up (actually not even comparable in my opinion) from the Germans I had in the past they are still not top of the line either.

If you follow BDL's suggestion to find someone who is good with sharpening J knives I think you will be very pleased.


----------



## lennyd

Capsaicin said:


> Each has its good points.
> 
> Tojiro has a harder edge (60-61) in VG10 which is pretty much stainless, while the Fujiwara FKM stainless line is a little softer (58-59). Fujiwara carbons are about 60 but you'll need to take care of it.
> 
> Tojiro has handles that some people find uncomfortable. I'm okay with them. It's also clad construction while the Fujiwaras are monosteel. Don't know if that makes a difference to you.
> 
> If you want stainless I'd go Tojiro. If you are willing to take care of non-stainless steel, then it's pretty much even in my opinion.


I thought I replied to this months ago, but guess I goofed something up lol

Since these are two brands I have been using for the last 7 months I have learned that they are both very good knives that will get seriously sharp with a little effort.

There are some differences as you mention, and I would add that they sharpen a little differently as the Tojiro takes a little longer, but rewards with an edge that lasts a little longer as well. It also seems that the Fuji feels a little lighte when comparing my Gyuto to the Tojiro Santoku.

I also am finding that both are great for the price, and just feel better for different uses. I know I have very different knives (cant really compare a petty to a gyuto etc) but also have had the opportunity to compare with a 180mm Tojiro gyuto. Have to admit I do like them both, and the 180 still is on it's OOTB sharpening so it is not as sharp as it should be or could be etc.

The main difference I find when trying to compare is that the Tojiro does not feel as nimble, but at the same time feels more robust or HD etc.

If you have not read my postings in my thread where this was all discussed previously I will add that I have both fallen for the VG10 blades on the Tojiro as well as gained a lot of respect for the slightly lower hardened steel in the Fujiwara. I wish all my blades performed this well, and can not wait until I get an opportunity to compare these with different higher end J knives in the future because if this is entry level I believe I am in for a real learning experience!


----------



## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> Too bad your knife didn't come sharp OOTB (out of the box). For several reasons, many Japanese made knives don't -- which a lot of westerners find disappointing. However Fujiwaras have the rep of arriving fairly sharp. Whatever. That train's already left the station and left with tear stained cheeks and a dull knife.
> 
> So, yes. Get it _properly sharpened _and it will put a Wusthof factory edge to shame, because the knife is thinner AND sharpened to a more acute angle. For the same reasons, plus its additional hardness, it will stay sharper through considerably more work.
> 
> Because every knife gets dull eventually, you can't get the benefit out of a quality blade unless you learn to sharpen yourself, or have someone very good do it for you on a regular basis. Until you learn, look for someone who has experience with Japanese made knives besides Shun and Global. You want someone with a picky clientele; ideally someone who sharpens by hand.
> 
> Enjoy your new knife and use it in good health,
> 
> BDL


Off topic, but good to see you around and posting again.

Just was not the same here without your "special" posting style


----------



## anoop

> Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*
> 
> ...
> 
> Until you learn, look for someone who has experience with Japanese made knives besides Shun and Global. You want someone with a picky clientele; ideally someone who sharpens by hand.


How do I find someone that will sharpen my knife for me?


----------



## Iceman

Well ... do you have a good Asian restaurant or sushi place in or by your location? I suggest you go in there at an off time, with one of your knives. Ask if anyone in the kitchen uses knives like yours and do they sharpen them themselves or do they use a service.



anoop said:


> How do find someone that will sharpen these for me?


----------



## boar_d_laze

Where are you located?

BDL

PS.  Thanks LennyD.


----------



## Iceman

I live in Chicagoland. It says it right there in my statistics. I thought you knew? I'm sure I've claimed Chicagoland as my home in some posts before.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Ice,

Sorry to be unclear.  I was asking anoop for his location on the off-chance that I might be able to recommend someone local to him.

BDL


----------



## anoop

boar_d_laze said:


> Sorry to be unclear. I was asking anoop for his location on the off-chance that I might be able to recommend someone local to him.


I'm located in Rocklin, CA which is near Sacramento.


----------



## Iceman

_*I was making a joke.*_


----------



## boar_d_laze

What means this joke word?

BDL


----------



## kieron19

@ cullinery college i started with a cheap set of these

http://www.russums-shop.co.uk/knives-c44/giesser-knives-c58/giesser-knives-c59

and they have lasted me a good 4 years.

im now moving onto these

http://www.russums-shop.co.uk/knives-c44/victorinox-knives-c89/rosewood-handles-c91

a chef lecturer at my college has had a set of these for about 20 years and are stil going great.

Personally i have a 10" and 12" cooks knife, a 3" paring, fish filleting knife, a boning knife, a carving knife, a potato peeler (speed) a steel for sharpening and a sharpening stone. a salmon knife and a butter curler. and thats all i need. i could probably get rid of the fish filleting knife and use a cooks knife and have same effect. i like the giesser knives im just looking for an upgrade. so getting some rosewood victrinox.

Sorry about the british site. but i am british


----------



## lennyd

[quote name="anoop" url="/forum/thread/62387/best-knives/60#post_359267"]

I'm located in Rocklin, CA which is near Sacramento.
[/quote]

I am on the east coast so I do not know anyone near you etc. But I have seen lots of talk about various peope who offer sharpening in Cali on some of the other sites.

I believe BDL is out your way as well so maybe he will be able to help.

I would also suggest that you take a little time and research learning to sharpen yourself. It is not as hard as it may seem, allows you to touch up your edges at any time, and also allows an odd feeling of accomplishment.

Just be cautioned it can become addictive, and many seem to become spokes people for OCD awareness lol.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Don't know anyone in Sacramento; but can probably dig up someone in the Bay Area. 

I know of quite a few good sharpeners who do on-line by mail... they tend to run pricey though.  CKTG has a big list... if you decide to go the CKTG route, PM me first as there's someone whom you should avoid.

Speaking of (very, very) good, but pricey online... Japanese Knife Sharpening.  Dave Martell is simply the best.

Don't be intimidated.  You can do it.

Watch the videos on CKTG.  Read the Bottorf site.  Read the E-Gullet (Chard Ward) faq.  Borrow the Juranitch book.  Buy Ward's book (you should at least borrow it before buying your knife).  Poke through my blog -- I'll be adding some sharpening content over August and September.  Join Fred's Cutlery Forum and/or the Knife Forum and ask lots of questions.

BDL


----------



## anoop

Is there any reason not to go to a store like, e.g., Sur La Table, to get it sharpened?  They claim to offer knife sharpening.


----------



## boar_d_laze

SLT sharpening is a Chef's Choice electric.

A CC's edges are barely adequate if the machine is used every once in a while, and a little better than that if it's kept on the counter and used whenever the need is felt. It's not the end of the world either way. Just check to make sure they're using a machine with an "Asian" edge angle for your Japanese knives and Forschners, and the regular, "western," bevel for your Wusties, etc.

Although not without flaws, I think CCs are a good choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen by hand. And fwiw, they're cheaper than a _good_ set of stones.

A lot of knife stores and sharpening services just run your knife through a machine, as well. That's why if you're going to pay top dollar for an expert sharpener you should actually get the services of an expert sharpener. Whether or not your local SLT's service is worth the money depends entirely on how much they charge.

BDL


----------



## lennyd

Just want to share a recent discussion I had with a local professional sharpener. This was a real nice guy who seemed genuine etc who I had met at a barbers, and is the guy who does all their scissors. Since he is the only professional in his field that I have met I am sure I amused him with my questions lol

The result of my inquiry is that the only sharpening he does free hand is his personal stuff, and also that is rare. He did have an interesting group of customer types from hair cutters, restaurant, and other food prep etc, but also some industrial people as well. Since I spent some time in the print and paper industries in the past I guess I should have thought of that etc.

What is interesting is that the prices we discussed were not seeming to be either "cheap" or expensive, but since all the work is done by machine (mostly different types of grinding wheel machines) it gets done pretty quickly.

I guess having someone around to restore your hollow ground german knife can be a benefit, but as I discussed with him I do not see me letting him near my J knives /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

A thought that came to mind while talking with this guy was that though he is less $$ than anyone I have seen quote a price for sharpening by hand it really was obvious that even at as high as $20 for a single 240mm done by hand is a bargain when you compare the difference in time it takes compared to a couple passes on a couple different machines or stones etc. I know some charge a bit less or a bit more than that, but the point is the same.

What I think would be a great benefit would be to have someone withing a reasonable driving distance that would not only offer a hand sharpening service, but also some type of class to introduce newbies to how to do it correctly. I know there are some out there already, and it was interesting to see the vids Wes Carter has on his classes to actually learn to make your own knife, but it seems these are too few, too expensive, and far too remote for many.

Anyhow maybe before anyone new to this gets started in sharpening a good search on youtube, or even watching the handful of sharpening vids Mark at CKTG has on his site would be helpful.


----------



## anoop

My local SLT said they charge a dollar an inch.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Originally Posted by *anoop* 


> My local SLT said they charge a dollar an inch.


And an "Asian" CC -- which is what they'd use -- is $80.

BDL


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## lennyd

woild have to think that 80 would be a good investment long term if your not going to learn free hand.


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## petemccracken

Is this the Chef's Choice you are referring to?



boar_d_laze said:


> Originally Posted by *anoop*
> 
> And an "Asian" CC -- which is what they'd use -- is $80.
> 
> BDL


----------



## brewbuzz

I own and regularly use 5 Kaji Fusion knives......they're wonderful. The design is outstanding, and the performance speaks for itself with each and every cut. I also own a couple MAC utility knives are outstanding in their own right (my wife likes their feel). I've read on numerous occasions about the obligtory bashing the Shun knives take as a result of the WS connection. No doubt they're pricey blades, and WS worked every dollar they could out of them. I'll agree the price made them a prohibitive purchase. Now you can get them at a better price more often than not, and I'd encourage folks to take a "test drive" if they can. No knife is perfect and I'd be the last person to crow that the Shun Kaji line is the best, but these blades are terrific and there are lotsa folks who'd agree with my positive assessment.


----------



## anoop

After several months with the Fujiwara, I'd say it's OK.  I got the blade sharpened once, but it is already starting to dull again.  Maybe it's because I don't really give it the care that it deserves, in the sense that I don't clean it immediately after use.  It is also starting show a slight rust around the handle area...I thought it was supposed to be stainless, but maybe it's not.


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## lennyd

anoop said:


> After several months with the Fujiwara, I'd say it's OK. I got the blade sharpened once, but it is already starting to dull again. Maybe it's because I don't really give it the care that it deserves, in the sense that I don't clean it immediately after use. It is also starting show a slight rust around the handle area...I thought it was supposed to be stainless, but maybe it's not.


Just an FYI but I learned long ago from my experience with marine and industrial products and machinery that stainless is just a description generalizing metals with a certain amount of chromium etc and has nothing to do with weather they will corrode or stain or not.

You have to remember that this knife is a piece of steel and even though that steel may be better suited to accept and keep a keen edge for longer than a similar or higher priced Henckels or Wusthoff etc it still is not going to do as well as a higher end Massmoto or other more expensive Japanese knife. Still any and all of these will require maintenance and that includes occasional truing on a rod or strop and also resharpening the edge, yes all of them!!

To be fair I do know my Fujiwara does require more frequency of "attention" than the similarly well priced Tojiro that I have, but like everything else in life there are trade offs and the main one in this excellent entry level comparison is that you get to decide between the better edge holding ability of the Tojiro's VG10 blade or the better ergo's and feel of the Fujiwara.

Honestly unless you want to spend around twice as much both issues are easy to work around.

That said I have decided on my next knife, and against my original thoughts of adding a slicer or longer petty I going to try another higher end Gyuto namely either a Konosuke HD or Hattori HD.

Not that I am not happy with what I have now, but after careful consideration and research I have decided that this is my most used knife type by far and I want to be able to compare accurately so I can then plan out my future purchases to complete my "set" which I really hope is perpetual


----------



## curious mac

boar_d_laze said:


> What means this joke word?
> 
> BDL


That's the Swedish name for the yellow part of an egg./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


----------



## phaedrus

I hate to make sweeping pronouncements based on just a month of use, but my initial impressions are that my new Nubatama is head and shoulders better than anything I've ever used before.  I'm not sure I'd recommend it at the current price of $835 but it's a beauty.


----------



## capsaicin

A lot of times when the edge dulls quickly it's actually because of the way it's used.  For example, some people use cutting boards made of hard materials (glass is the worst), or hit bone a lot, or do a lot of peeling which puts lateral stress on the edge.  No knife can stay sharp under harsh use.  For uses during which you expect such wear and tear, it's better to stick with cheap knives you don't care about.  The pros here can tell you about "beaters" to which such jobs are usually left.

Corrosion is sometimes a factor in dulling, but very rarely so for knives marketed as stainless.  Though no steel is ever truly corrosion proof, any knife that is sold as stainless would be sufficiently resistant to corrosion from anything that would come out of normal food preparation as long as you clean it it after each use.

Those things being said, Fujiwaras actually have a good reputation for toughness.  Maybe if you tell the folks here how you are using that knife and for what, people can give you some suggestions.  For my part, if you find that it's staining, then wash it after each use.  Even Globals -- which are some of the most stain resistant of kitchen knives -- will stain and pit if you stuck it into a holder dirty and wet.


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## anoop

Where do ceramic knives fit into all of this?  They seem quite a bit more expensive than even the high-end steel knives, but they come with a promise of no sharpening needed, plus no issues with rust or anything.


----------



## petemccracken

Yeah, the only issue I have a BIG problem with is...they shatter when dropped!



anoop said:


> Where do ceramic knives fit into all of this? They seem quite a bit more expensive than even the high-end steel knives, but they come with a promise of no sharpening needed, plus no issues with rust or anything.


----------



## anoop

PeteMcCracken said:


> Yeah, the only issue I have a BIG problem with is...they shatter when dropped!


This FAQ doesn't seem to think the probability of breakage is any worse than a steel knife.

http://kyoceraadvancedceramics.com/ceramic/faqs.html#q3


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## Iceman

I don't know. I've got a bunch of ceramics. They get dropped all the time. I've never had any breaks or chips. That being said, I won't ever get any more. I paid more for my first, a *Kyocera* _Nakiri_, than anything I own _(OK, so it's still peanuts compared to stuff here, but LOTS for me)_. All the rest I've just sorta "collected" _(NO, that doesn't mean "stolen")_. Anyway, they _DO NOT_ stay sharp forever. I'm sure someone has broken or chipped them too. The love affair lasted maybe a week to 10-days for me. All-in-all, they're kinda cool, I'm just over that. If you've _just got to have one_, seriously, look at this deal. I'm serious, and _NO_, I don't work for them. This price is cheap enough to just have fun.

This is my _"review" _of the_ Kyocera_, not the knives I'm suggesting that you can have fun with.

Kyocera Revolution Series 6 Inch Nakiri Vegetable Cleaver, White Blade

_*This is the one:*_

* Yoshi Ceramic Knife *

For $20, you get two(2) knives and two(2) peelers. I've never hit the link that I didn't get another $5 off per order. I'm not telling anyone to jump up and buy this deal. I'm just saying that for the money, at the very least you get two(2) good peelers. I am saying though, that before you go drop serious coin on ceramics, play with them first. Kyocera makes and sells a sharpener, for around $80.


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## capsaicin

Iceman - have you ever tried to sharpen any of these on diamond?

Just curious.


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## Iceman

No.   I will send the Kyocera back to them to sharpen when I feel the need. For what I use it for, and for how much I use it, it's still OK I guess.


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## rmullins

As with every discussion that I have seen on knives this is starting to turn into an evaluation of gimmicky crap.  Ceramic blades are sharp, but they cannot be re-sharpened and eventually will be dull.  You will throw them away.  Ceramic cutting tools were pioneered in industrial cutting applications of petroleum made products such as plastic, poly, etc, etc.  (see Kyocera).

The real problem with ceramic blades is that they simply don't have the weight for serious food-prep.  Sure, if you only putter around the kitchen and you use a ceramic paring knife to peel an apple for your five year old, ceramics are fine but for quick food prep they are for the most part worthless.

My question for boar_d_laze is;

I looked over your blog and saw the knives you are using.  

They look pretty well made, are they the 'MAC'?  I currently own a "Henkels" chef knife and a 'Old Hickory' paring knife.  I use them both for everything, and for the last ten years they have been great, however the 'Henkels; is just about shot, (the blade edge is almost un-hone-able and I don't want to re-grind).

Additionally:

I would like to add a knife or two however because I have started doing my own slaughter.  I started raising hogs and lamb for my own uses  and I need a real knife for slaughter, butcher, and boning.  What would you suggest?

On a personal note, I like the French/Japanese edges (this is also called a scandi grind with no secondary bevel I believe.) and I HONE all the time and rarely if ever sharpen.  Occasionally I will use an Arkansas Black Oilstone for a quick hone, and 600 grit sandpaper to re-edge somewhat.

I use a combination of grips, but have been favoring the 'pinch' grip as if a knife is properly sharpened it takes almost no effort to go through a pile of onions.


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## Iceman

My one(1) main-line ceramic knife is a Nakiri. I use it for vegetables and some specific cuts of meat. Just exactly how much "heavy" do you need to dispatch vegetables, or cut a psmo into steaks? I don't plan to throw it or any of the others I have away. From what I've been told, the electric sharpener that Kyocera makes works pretty well for what it is.


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## rmullins

I don't think the issue is 'how much heavy' particularly, however I do know that ceramic blades are considerably lighter than a standard steel one.  

That being said, from a physics point of view what happens during an actual 'cut' is that sharpness and inertia play the pivotal role.

Now to be clear, while you may have a 8-pound sledge hammer (lots of inertia when being released as entropy is converted into usable energy) dropped at three feet, you are not going to cut your vegetables you are going to ghallegher(sp?) them.  However, if you put a razors edge on that 8-pound sledge, you will effortlessly slice right through an elephant, viscera and all.  This means a great deal of reduced hand-fatigue.  A very sharp ceramic blade dropped from twice as high will not even come close to attaining the kind of inertia will would require to cut into the elephant the thickness of the knife itself, let alone slicing a carrot.

Even though a ceramic blade has a crazy sharp blade, your muscles will have to do the additional labor of 'pushing' the blade through the material rather than inertia doing the work for you.  Hence being able to use a nice 'soft-pinch' grip to process a laundry basket full of onions, or carrots or whatever.

Now, one could argue that while the steel blade may be superior on the downward motion of the cut, your muscles will have to make up for that energy by picking the blade up yet again to put energy back into entropy or stored energy status, thereby making the steel blade much less efficient than the ceramic blade on the 'upswing' however; due to the way our muscles work in our arms, wrists, and hands it is easier to pick something 'up' rather than push something down.  When one pushes down in a cutting motion he/she is pushing through the resistance of the item itself along with the 'sharpness' of the knife ( a dull knife will make you use more pressure) and the effort it takes to keep your hands, wrists and arm aligned properly to make the most efficient 'cut'.   When picking up, one only works against gravity.

I guess however, even after all that, the decision could quite possibly still be one of preference.


----------



## capsaicin

Every joule of energy that a heavy knife saves you when you cut will have to be made up for when you lift the blade.  And in every maneuver of the knife.  You're not saving effort.

A Henckels' wedging effect compared to a nice thin-bladed Japanese gyuto or a Chinese chopper will take much more force to overcome than any difference in weight.

Heaviness is not the main determining factor in choosing knives...  At least, not in chef knives.


----------



## Iceman

Sharp is sharp. All things being equal, sharp things will cut other things nicely. I've seen veteran laborers, construction guys with leather hands, still get _"paper cuts"_ on their fingers. You don't need Herculean strength to slice vegetables. Being able to hold a very light knife, just maybe there is less muscle stress since you don't have to hold up a big heavy blade? I don't know, maybe things are different in your part of the world, but I've never had any arguments from vegetables. They just always seem to go along with the program. If you just use equipment for the proper given application, there shouldn't be any problem.

I'm curious too here just a bit. Are you speaking from any experience using ceramic knives, or are you just, you know, talking about them? It's OK either way. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.


----------



## rmullins

> Every joule of energy that a heavy knife saves you when you cut will have to be made up for when you lift the blade. And in every maneuver of the knife. You're not saving effort.


That is just a statement, not a proof. I am not talking about just any heavy knife evaluated on it's own. I am merely comparing the two (ceramic to steel) from a scientific observation and from what I know about the way knives work, being a knife-maker myself. I don't make chef's knives, however I do understand the principles behind edges and why you would pick one over the other. I make my own tools for woodworking as well as my being (in my youth) a chef during the time when ceramic blades first made their appearance and were prohibitively expensive.

As the technology became less expensive and ceramic blades and knives were made available, our restaurant bought one. It wasn't horrific, however it wasn't favored either. My personal experience in processing mounds and mounds of root vegetables is that it lacked the 'oomph' needed to really muscle through things, and all of us (I believe there were four of us who tried it out) had extremely sore wrists and fore-arms. I asked a knifemaker friend of mine why this was and helped me understand using the explanation I gave above. I confirmed this with a physics professor at my local college, just for giggles.

Now, I am not saying that this discounts completely the value of a ceramic blade. I am sure they have their place in the home as well as in the kitchen. As I said before I can definitely understand their value as a 'paring' knife. It's nice, and light and there are completely different movements and muscles being used in 'paring' activities.

However, it's as Iceman said, 'sharp is sharp'. I was only offering an opinion based on some scientific observation. I will however (because of the scientific proof) have to disagree with the 'fiery' one. A person does indeed save effort using the proper ratio of sharp to weight when using a Chef's knife. The laws of Newtonian physics prove it.


----------



## rmullins

I would still like to know what knife boar_d_laze uses for butchery, primal cuts, etc, etc as I would like to start rebuilding my collection.  Or if anyone else does any charcuterie and uses a certain knife variety for this activity.  I find my chef's knife is kind of weird when processing huge slabs of meat.


----------



## boar_d_laze

For big meat with any bones:  10" Forschner Cimeter; 12" K-Sabatier au carbone chef's; or, Chicago Cutlery carbon (from the mid-sixties) cleaver. 

Heavy duty poultry, portioning ribs, etc:  Same knives.

For big meat with no bones:  10" Forschner Cimeter; 12" Konosuke HD suji; 10" K-Sabatier au carbone slicer.

For boning and breaking:  150mm Konosuke SS petty; or 6" TI Sabatier "Nogent" slicer.  I'm thinking of adding a Forschner 7" or 8" breaker, but I've already got so many knives and don't need more.

For trimming:  Any of the slicers or petties -- depending on the size of meat and whether the surfaces are are straight or irregularly shaped.   

For breaking fish:  7" TI Sabatier "Nogent" Chef's + either of the Sabatier slicers; or the 12" K-Sab chef's plus the 12" Konosuke suji.  The choices aren't whimsical, they depend on the size and type of fish.  My fish work is pretty much Japanese style, and I use the chef's knives as a Japanese cook would use a deba; the slicers/suji as he would use a yanagiba. 

I really like the little chef's knife, but there aren't a lot of things for which it's the best or even one of the best tasks; so I invent reasons to use it.

For the little it's worth, I seldom prep any meal with more than two knives because too much junk either makes for a messy and confusing work area or a lot of running around getting things out and putting them away.  The two knife limit frequently means not using the "right" knife for every task.  But as long as it's sharp, right?

BDL


----------



## rmullins

FANTASTIC, exactly what I needed to know.  Thanks.  (got a question on your blog,enjoying it immensely!  disregard the questions now.   )


----------



## Iceman

WOW. I guess I'm just lucky then. Anyway, I'm not buying into the physics part, I'm just going with, you know, real professional experience and such, that guides me to just believe in sharp knives and good skills. To restate my original thoughts/feelings from the original ceramic question, I think they're kinda cool; I'm not getting any more; an electric sharpener is on the market; I recommend that $20 deal just to to see; I think the _"physics"_ argument is silly.


----------



## phatch

And yet, the trend is to lighter and thinner blades. Inertia is actually a negative when you want fine control of the cut. Lifting a heavy blade is more tiring for most cooks than the effort used in controlling the cut of a sharp knife.

Those cuts where inertia is more help are where cleavers tend to be used.



rmullins said:


> I don't think the issue is 'how much heavy' particularly, however I do know that ceramic blades are considerably lighter than a standard steel one.
> 
> That being said, from a physics point of view what happens during an actual 'cut' is that sharpness and inertia play the pivotal role.
> 
> Now to be clear, while you may have a 8-pound sledge hammer (lots of inertia when being released as entropy is converted into usable energy) dropped at three feet, you are not going to cut your vegetables you are going to ghallegher(sp?) them. However, if you put a razors edge on that 8-pound sledge, you will effortlessly slice right through an elephant, viscera and all. This means a great deal of reduced hand-fatigue. A very sharp ceramic blade dropped from twice as high will not even come close to attaining the kind of inertia will would require to cut into the elephant the thickness of the knife itself, let alone slicing a carrot.
> 
> Even though a ceramic blade has a crazy sharp blade, your muscles will have to do the additional labor of 'pushing' the blade through the material rather than inertia doing the work for you. Hence being able to use a nice 'soft-pinch' grip to process a laundry basket full of onions, or carrots or whatever.
> 
> Now, one could argue that while the steel blade may be superior on the downward motion of the cut, your muscles will have to make up for that energy by picking the blade up yet again to put energy back into entropy or stored energy status, thereby making the steel blade much less efficient than the ceramic blade on the 'upswing' however; due to the way our muscles work in our arms, wrists, and hands it is easier to pick something 'up' rather than push something down. When one pushes down in a cutting motion he/she is pushing through the resistance of the item itself along with the 'sharpness' of the knife ( a dull knife will make you use more pressure) and the effort it takes to keep your hands, wrists and arm aligned properly to make the most efficient 'cut'. When picking up, one only works against gravity.
> 
> I guess however, even after all that, the decision could quite possibly still be one of preference.


----------



## lennyd

phatch said:


> And yet, the trend is to lighter and thinner blades. Inertia is actually a negative when you want fine control of the cut. Lifting a heavy blade is more tiring for most cooks than the effort used in controlling the cut of a sharp knife.
> 
> Those cuts where inertia is more help are where cleavers tend to be used.


Was thinking pretty much the same thing.

Have to admit that all the ceramic talk has gotten me a bit curious but no way will my budget allow anything new for a while unless its really inexpensive.

Maybe will try the really low cost ones I have been seeing at one of the discount clearance stores near here. I think they were $10 but could be more or less and I have no idea on the brand.

I k ow kyrocera will have an opinion but do you all think there is a large difference between the different brands?


----------



## Iceman




----------



## lennyd

Love doing that cup "trick" when visiting friends and family.

Had to talk my way out of doing an entire "el cheapo" block set after helping out and putting an edge on a slicer that was so dull it wouldn't cut your finger over the holidays.

Seem to have had a lot more steel come off the blade that in the video though, but guess that one was not as bad


----------



## capsaicin

Observation is observation.  Calling an observation "scientific" does not make it so.  Perhaps you meant "empiric"?

And citing unnamed physics professors and just throwing the word "Newtonian physics" doesn't really prove anything.  It takes a certain amount of physical energy to move a certain amount of weight a certain distance, and when you lift something you store up potential energy in it that is released when the force which is holding the thing up is released and the object drops.  More weight means more energy released when the thing is dropped, but also more weight when you pull it back up each time.  There is simply no way to use less energy by using a heavier object.  Heavier object = more energy used per motion.  THAT is what Newtonian physics dictates.

If your wrists and forearms were sore, there are alternative explanations.  One, the thicker blade may have been actually cracking the vegetable or exerting some force to push the vegetable apart as it was being pushed through the vegetable, neither of which is strictly speaking cutting.  Two, the surface textures may have been different, and the ceramic may have been creating more drag when pulled through whatever was being cut.  Three, it may have been that people were using the 5" ceramic 4 ounce santoku very differently than the 8-10", one pound chef they were used to, using less leverage and more moscle power and/or using more forearm muscles than the larger chest/shoulder/upper arm muscles, which don't tire as easily.

Or it may be some combination of these factors, but I think it was mostly the third -- people were handling this tiny little ceramic thing differently and weren't using it the same way, perhaps being ginger with it because it was also very expensive, and found its thin spine uncomfortable to push down on compared to a German ax.


----------



## anoop

Now after I think a couple of years with the Fujiwara FKM petty and after several sharpenings, I'm ready for another knife.

The one thing that I'm finding hard to live with in the FKM is the way the blade is shaped at the base of the handle. It is way too pointed and it always ruins my sponges when cleaning it. 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html

The Tojiro DP doesn't seem much different; i.e. looks like it would still be sharp. The logo looks a lot better than it did when this thread was previously active...did they change it or is it just my perception?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todppe12.html

On the other hand, knives such as the Miyabi Evolution or the Shun Kaji seem to be much smoother at the edge.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-1251180/Miyabi+Evolution+Chefs+Knives

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/shun-kaji-chefs-knife/?pkey=e|shun+kaji|22|best|0|1|24||10

Will these be expected to hold their edge any better than the FKM? If so the premium may be worth it.

Are there any cheaper knives where the base is better finished than with the FKM? If that edge is slightly rounded, would that roundedness hold across knife sharpenings?

Thanks.


----------



## knifesavers

anoop said:


> The one thing that I'm finding hard to live with in the FKM is the way the blade is shaped at the base of the handle. It is way too pointed and it always ruins my sponges when cleaning it.


You mean the handle/blade junction or the pointy end of the cutting edge at the heel?

That 90 degree point at the heel is easy enough to round off but if the areas around the handle and grip ar ethe issue that can be harder to do.

If the heel point, draw a draw a line with a Sharpie as to how you want it rounded and get a metal file and coarse stone to reshape it to fit you better.

Around the handle you need wet dry sandpaper and a lot of elbow grease to customize it

Jim


----------



## anoop

Walked into my local Williams Sonoma today and the Shun Kaji 6" hollow ground chef knife was being offered at a deal that seemed too good to pass up.

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...ODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules

It seems like it's also available online at the same deal.

The normal price is $149.99 but they were on sale for $79.99.

They didn't have them in stock, so they ordered one for me with free shipping. They said the sale ends today. That's why I figured I'd get one...I can always return it if I change my mind within 30 days.

What do you guys think of this knife? I really like the handle and the light weight. I expect to use this for cutting larger vegetables like sweet potatoes that my Fujiwara has trouble with.


----------



## phatch

Too short, too curved, and a hollow grind is a poor choice for the kitchen imho.


----------



## galley swiller

anoop said:


> Walked into my local Williams Sonoma today and the Shun Kaji 6" hollow ground chef knife was being offered at a deal that seemed too good to pass up.
> 
> http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...ODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules
> 
> It seems like it's also available online at the same deal.
> 
> The normal price is $149.99 but they were on sale for $79.99.
> 
> They didn't have them in stock, so they ordered one for me with free shipping. They said the sale ends today. That's why I figured I'd get one...I can always return it if I change my mind within 30 days.
> 
> What do you guys think of this knife? I really like the handle and the light weight. I expect to use this for cutting larger vegetables like sweet potatoes that my Fujiwara has trouble with.


It's a 6 inch (150mm) blade (for general practical work, a minimum 8 inches - 200mm - is the usual standard for a chef's knife - 240 mm is usually what I look for).

The amount of belly on that is very, very big (the reverse of what a french pattern chef's knife would use).

The "dimples" (more accurately referred to as kullenschliff) are a waste of effort and have not been shown to actually reduce friction.

65 layers for the "damascus" effect - non-functional, but will invariably get all scratched up and will be difficult to restore (it takes special etching to restore).

The core steel is SG-2. Several people on another thread say they have had problems with getting Shun SG-2 blades sharp.

But then, it's "only" $79.95 on sale.

Galley Swiller


----------



## anoop

phatch said:


> Too short, too curved, and a hollow grind is a poor choice for the kitchen imho.


Why is the hollow grind a bad choice?

Also, given that I get scared of very big knives (my only knife is the Fujiwara FKM 120 mm petty), what else would you recommend?


----------



## anoop

Galley Swiller said:


> It's a 6 inch (150mm) blade (for general practical work, a minimum 8 inches - 200mm - is the usual standard for a chef's knife - 240 mm is usually what I look for).
> 
> The amount of belly on that is very, very big (the reverse of what a french pattern chef's knife would use).
> 
> The "dimples" (more accurately referred to as kullenschliff) are a waste of effort and have not been shown to actually reduce friction.
> 
> 65 layers for the "damascus" effect - non-functional, but will invariably get all scratched up and will be difficult to restore (it takes special etching to restore).
> 
> The core steel is SG-2. Several people on another thread say they have had problems with getting Shun SG-2 blades sharp.
> 
> But then, it's "only" $79.95 on sale.


If it's going to have trouble keeping an edge, then that's a problem for me. Appreciate the feedback.


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## galley swiller

anoop said:


> If it's going to have trouble keeping an edge, then that's a problem for me. Appreciate the feedback.


The comment I saw was that bringing the knife to full sharpness was hard, and that it quickly backed down to about 80% sharpness and then holds it there.

That process of a knife taking an initial sharpness, then backing down to a sustained but lower sharpness level is a common description for a number of knives with Japanese steels (most notably commented on per VG-10).

GS


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## phatch

The hollow grind is very thin behind the edge which is very good for shallow delicate cuts. But it gets thick very fast at the top of the hollow grind. This creates a lot of wedging in the cut compared to other grinds as a generalization. 

A hollow grind is the cheapest way to grind a knife. Least work, least tooling. Now, there are shallow grind heights and high grind height that can affect how it cuts to some degree. And rarer still is a hollow grind on a large wheel, say 14" or more so that it's more like a flat grind in many ways. 

The shadow line on this particular shun leads me to think it's not that high of  grind, topping out into the kullens maybe. I'm not sure as the usual shadowing of a hollow grind is usually more distinct.  If so, they've done some smoothing on the transition from hollow grind to the flat of the blade.


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## rick alan

I find Shuns to be a bit thick behind the edge, don't like their heavily curved belly, their SG2 is on the chippy side compared to other makers, and I don't know what you mean by "bigger" vegetables, this is just a 6" knife after all.  But SG2 is a very nice alloy in terms of being very fine grained and good on edge retention, and so long as you use this knife gently, get a fine ceramic steel to touch it up with, I'd say you'd get your $80 worth out of it.

Rick


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## spoiledbroth

lol hey anyone got anything bad to say about the messermeister asian precision line? They're supposed to be made in Seki, but the messermeister site has poo poo specifications for their products (some of the knife wraps dont even show an interior photo, what is that...). I'm not interested in anything other than the gyuto really, but comments on any of the knives would be appreciated.


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## rick alan

Yeh well so we do hear that some people have trouble getting their Shuns sharp as GS said, I know that first hand and I also know that it is due to poor quality control in both the heat treat and sharpening process (burning the edge by being too aggressive with the power abrasives).  I didn't go into that because I just decided to be positive about Shuns for a change.  But Shun does guaranty their products so you can do something about those lemons.

Question is, do you really want to bother?  I personally would not by one even for $80.

Rick


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## anoop

Rick Alan said:


> Yeh well so we do hear that some people have trouble getting their Shuns sharp as GS said, I know that first hand and I also know that it is due to poor quality control in both the heat treat and sharpening process (burning the edge by being too aggressive with the power abrasives). I didn't go into that because I just decided to be positive about Shuns for a change. But Shun does guaranty their products so you can do something about those lemons.
> 
> Question is, do you really want to bother? I personally would not by one even for $80.


What would you recommend instead?


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## rick alan

I really don't want to steer you away, lots of pros buy Shun and like them.  But as GS said a 240 is the usual knife to get when you say you want something bigger.  What size/type is your Fujiwara?  How much you wanna spend?

Rick


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## anoop

Rick Alan said:


> I really don't want to steer you away, lots of pros buy Shun and like them. But as GS said a 240 is the usual knife to get when you say you want something bigger. What size/type is your Fujiwara? How much you wanna spend?


The Fujiwara is an FKM 120 mm petty.

I don't have a strict budget with which I'm working, but I don't want to buy something that is not considered a good value.

I guess I could just get a 150 mm petty or gyuto.


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## anoop

Benuser said:


> Be aware you can do a lot with a petty -- *as long as it lives, which is quite short. These blades have a short contact area with the board, will get some abuse, dull quickly and get sharpened more frequently. They wear out in no time when used as a one and only.* Get a decent 240mm chef's knife, e.g. a stainless Hiromoto G3 with japanesechefsknife.com
> It will last forever.


This is definitely consistent with my experience. It seems to need sharpening every 2-3 months. It is my only knife.

In the Japanese knife world, what is the equivalent of the western chef knife? Is it the Gyuto, the Western Deba, or something else?


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## lennyd

I'm not avoiding the question but if you get bored and have extra time there are countless "good" threads here on the topic of lower cost j knives, and many including the one in my signature that address some of the differences and how to help one determine how to find what's best for them. 

That said a lot to do with making a good suggestion or even decision has to do with your technique, experience, and personal preference. 

If you don't like or feel comfortable with a 240mm then a 180 or 210mm may be a better choice. 

Remember that many j knives will sell in 2 yrs used about what they were new, and most of the ones I have had, seen or used were more than acceptable and well above the popular Western brands so much as I worried in the past it's hard to make a really poor decision if you go with most of the brands with good reviews here.


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## kartman35

> Originally Posted by *phatch*





> The hollow grind is very thin behind the edge which is very good for shallow delicate cuts. But it gets thick very fast at the top of the hollow grind. This creates a lot of wedging in the cut compared to other grinds as a generalization.
> 
> A hollow grind is the cheapest way to grind a knife. Least work, least tooling. Now, there are shallow grind heights and high grind height that can affect how it cuts to some degree. And rarer still is a hollow grind on a large wheel, say 14" or more so that it's more like a flat grind in many ways.
> 
> The shadow line on this particular shun leads me to think it's not that high of grind, topping out into the kullens maybe. I'm not sure as the usual shadowing of a hollow grind is usually more distinct. If so, they've done some smoothing on the transition from hollow grind to the flat of the blade.


In this case I think the question was meant to be about the "Hollow edge" or "Cullens" or "kullenschliff" or whatever that the Shun Kaji has. The above above is certainly all true with respect to hollow grinds, but the discussion is actually about what Shun likes to call a "hollow edge". To my knowledge Shun chef's knives are not hollow ground...

Just wanted to clear that up for Anoop. The dimples on your blade do no harm, just know that they don't really help unstick food as the manufacturers claim.

from the WS website:

Hollow-ground indentations on the blade reduce friction and minimize sticking for exceptional release of everything from summer tomatoes to hard cheeses.


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## galley swiller

I agree with Benuser.

I only have one knife with kullens - a MAC MTH-80 Pro series 8 inch gyuto "with dimples".  I bought it to compare with other knives, including other MAC's.  I was decidedly not impressed.  

On that blade, the kullens on each face of the blade are offset, so that each kullen does not align with a kullen on the opposite face of the blade.  That way, there is much less chance of unnecessary weakening of the integrity of the blade at any single point.  Even so, the blade had to be thickened to compensate for the grinding away of the kullens.

On the pictured Shun Kaji on WS's site, the width of the individual kullens and the distance between kullens appears to be almost the same - which suggests that there is potentially minimal material between the individual kullens on opposite sides of the blade - or that the knife had to be thickened to compensate for the thinness between kullen areas on each side of the blade.  Either situation is just plain bad.  Either the knife is thicker than it really needs to be (with wedging and future thinning problems) or it is weaker than it should be.

No thank you for kullens.

Galley Swiller


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## cm-chef

Hello every one
I'm a new guy here but found this thread very interesting and containing a lot of great information.
For what my 2¢ is worth:
I have been a pro chef for about 30 years, I can remember more "knife fads" then I can count I also have more knives then I can count. That being sad I find the old saying to be true, it's not the knife but the chef that uses it. Most chefs have horrible knives and most have no idea how to maintain them, it's sad but true. I will admit that the younger guys (and gals) coming in thes days do seem to have a bit more respect for the tools of the trade then those back in the days when I was 1st starting out (IMHO).
Now as for shuns, when they 1st came out I jumped right on board, I loved them! At the time I had no clue how to sharpen a knife nore at the time did I care to learn. So what I dis was I got two identical sets (10" chef, 6" petty, and one of there single beveled yanagi's) and I used there "free sharpaning service". When my "every day set" got to dull I mailed them away to get sharpened and had the "back up set" to use when they were away, I did this for over 10 years. So with that in mind there are worse ways you could go then a shun. Note I no longer own any and consider them more trouble then they are worth.
2nd about 8-10 years back I stumbled onto a websight were the guys were talking about sharpaning on a belt sander (specifically the one made by Delta and the cheap one sold by Harbor freight). The most useful thing I got from reading all of that was that for under $100 you can keep your knives razor sharp with little to no skill. With a $35 belt sander from H.F. A "specialty" leather belt that fits it ( sold by a lot of stores online) and some green or diamond " polishing" or "honeing" compound you essentially have a "power strop". I run my knives a few times across the belt every day (probably the equivalent to once a month for a home cook) and find myself only haveing to sharpen my knives about 2x a year (probably about the equivalent of 10 years of home use). Note: I'm not talking about sharpaning on a belt sander, which can be done with great results. However that requires a decent amount of skill and practice. But "power stroping" on a leather belt requires no more skill than using an electric knife sharpaner (may be less)...and the little H.F. Sander is very light (maybe 20lb?) and no biger then a vita-prep (well maybe a little bigger)
That's my 2¢ for now, great sight guys.


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## lennyd

Benuser said:


> Are you so sure you'll be able to sell them in two years for the same price? That supposes a further appreciation of the JPY against the USD. If that were the case replacement won't be easy.


Though just like the wall street guru's disclaimer that past experience is no guarantee of the future my expectations are that there will not be any major changes in currency exchange, but either way I would not expect to see the typical yearly increases in prices (everyone in business looks forward to those lol) go away anytime soon.

In my personal knife rack the age ranges from 2-5 except one much older odd ball, and I see them all selling higher used now than I paid new.

I'm sure there will be exceptions, but even using the 79.00 shun that was mentioned previous I wouldn't be surprised if it sold above on an eBay auction etc.

I guess the main point was that there was not 100% exposure if one is not able to return.


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## cm-chef

The only knives I have (or had) that increase in value are the ones I got before they became collectible. I was one of those chefs that everyone though was nuts for buying a $500.00 Kramer back when cook's illustrated first wrote him up. Then even crazier when I payed $800 for a Damascus knife made by him. That knife proved to be better than any stock I've ever invested in LOL.


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## rick alan

I can't say that the kullens on my Ikon slicer do anything good, in fact I think they create drag when I use it to carve a chicken. Well actually I think in some instances they do contribute to food release.

But I do admire the precision with which they were applied. This knife has a pretty thin profile so they are of course staggered from one side to the other, and I have a min of 2 mm from the edge to where they begin, so even if eventually I did reach that far back I would still have a usable edge with the thinning that would be needed anyway, especially if I did a little concaving which would be interesting. And I am so used to seeing them that at this time I would miss them if they were gone.


CM-Chef said:


> The only knives I have (or had) that increase in value are the ones I got before they became collectible. I was one of those chefs that everyone though was nuts for buying a $500.00 Kramer back when cook's illustrated first wrote him up. Then even crazier when I payed $800 for a Damascus knife made by him. That knife proved to be better than any stock I've ever invested in LOL.


I've wanted to read that article. Am I right when I say they were comparing his fully forged and carefully sharpened blades to the likes of outofthebox wusties, henckles and sabs?

Rick


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## spoiledbroth

Rick Alan said:


> I can't say that the kullens on my Ikon slicer do anything good, in fact I think they create drag when I use it to carve a chicken. Well actually I think in some instances they do contribute to food release.
> 
> But I do admire the precision with which they were applied. This knife has a pretty thin profile so they are of course staggered from one side to the other, and I have a min of 2 mm from the edge to where they begin, so even if eventually I did reach that far back I would still have a usable edge with the thinning that would be needed anyway, especially if I did a little concaving which would be interesting. And I am so used to seeing them that at this time I would miss them if they were gone.
> 
> I've wanted to read that article. Am I right when I say they were comparing his fully forged and carefully sharpened blades to the likes of outofthebox wusties, henckles and sabs?
> 
> Rick


If they were comparing to a TI carbon I think that's a fair comparison sort of. They're handcrafted IIRC


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## cm-chef

Rick Alan said:


> I can't say that the kullens on my Ikon slicer do anything good, in fact I think they create drag when I use it to carve a chicken. Well actually I think in some instances they do contribute to food release.
> 
> But I do admire the precision with which they were applied. This knife has a pretty thin profile so they are of course staggered from one side to the other, and I have a min of 2 mm from the edge to where they begin, so even if eventually I did reach that far back I would still have a usable edge with the thinning that would be needed anyway, especially if I did a little concaving which would be interesting. And I am so used to seeing them that at this time I would miss them if they were gone.
> 
> I've wanted to read that article. Am I right when I say they were comparing his fully forged and carefully sharpened blades to the likes of outofthebox wusties, henckles and sabs?
> 
> Rick


Worse he was beat out by forschner victorinox LoL. He didn't even rank, he only got honorable mention. They admitted his knife was superior to the rest but that it's unreasonable price tag priced it out of the competition. Cooks illustrated is funny about letting people read their articles they make you have some sort of subscription in order to see back issues?? But Bob used to have a copy of it on his site, don't know if it's still there?


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## rick alan

CI gives no such options on their site, at least to non-members, and I never saw the link on Bob's site, doesn't sound like it would impress folks nowadays.  Bob is  definitely a fine craftsman, but much like other knife makers he both welcomes and actively contributes to the tall tales.  And even working in 1095 any decent bladesmith at the time would have turned out a knife quite noticeably better than an au Carbone.  I remember back in the 80's I had a chance to buy a Bill Bagwell 10" Damascus Bowie right from Bagwell for $800, and that thing could take quite an edge and hold it well.  I don't think he was yet calling it a Hell's Bell.  An acquaintance had one made to his own specs (which I believe eventually evolved into the HB) and asked Bill to make him a cheap replica he could use for practicing throwing, to which Bagwell only had to say, "All of my knives are meant to be used, period!"  I believe that now they are selling in the range of Kramer Knives.

Rick


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## cm-chef

The article that started it all


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