# Another way to grill meats. Want to reduce customer wait times without compromising texture or quali



## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

What is the best method to precook the meat (at approx. 80%) in the day time with our prep, so that when a customer orders later on, it is just tossed on the grill and ready within 5 minutes, without losing texture or flavor?

I'm the operator and line cook for a Mediterranean grill. We are opening a new location in a business district and it is crucial we reduce customer wait times. Especially for menu items such as pita wraps and souvlaki platters.

Many of our customers order chicken/beef/lamb/pork pitas and platters. It takes approximately 15 minutes to grill these items. This is causing our walk-in business to suffer. Customers want to drop by, order, receive their food within 5 minutes. When it takes us 15 minutes to cook their food, it doesn't make it feasible for someone to walk in on their lunch break and order from us.

Our food quality is not something we want to sacrifice, and at the same time, we want to enhance our customer experience by reducing wait times.


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## eloki (Apr 3, 2006)

Do you have any experience with sous-vide? If not, you could look into it.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Encourage call in orders...

Blitz the area with mini menus with 5 or so dishes....reward those callers with a cookie or drink (or $ off but IMO value added is better than a discount for your bottom line).

mimi


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Some ideas without seeing your menu. 

     I don't know the terms so bear with me. Gyros are sliced off of the cone of meat so that should be quick. No grilling required, right?  

Other meats could be cut in smaller or thinner pieces that will cook faster on a grill. 

Buy an Alto Sham cook and hold unit or holding cabinet. They aren't cheap but would help in your situation. You can have enough meats precooked an hour before service, held in the unit and grilled per order without losing quality. I don't know how you would do it without the Alto Sham without losing a lot of quality. 

     Once you have made all the adjustments you can to the preparation of ingredients, offer only those items in your business location that can be done quickly. If there is a menu item that will take 15 minutes no matter what, put a disclaimer next to it on the menu or don't offer it at all. 

   The term "platter" is making me concerned. How many items are on the platter and why does everyone order that for lunch? Are they really eating a platter of food for a quick business lunch or are they interested in the meats and the sides that would be included? Are they eating in house or getting it to go? The sides could be pre-portioned, ready for service so some of the 15 minutes is not spent getting the platter ready. 

It's tough to answer all this without seeing your operation.


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## johnpc (Jun 1, 2015)

eloki said:


> Do you have any experience with sous-vide? If not, you could look into it.


I agree with eloki but while I'm a proponent of SV and a seller of accessories for it I would think it would depend on what 80% cooked is? Maybe someone with more experience can help out here but if you're par-cooking meat below the pasteurization temperature (low 130's) is there a danger of pathogen development that post-grilling would not deal with? If it isn't a worry or if your pre-cook temperatures are 130F (55C) or above I would consider SV. If cost and/or capacity is an issue you could go with a circulator and 5.5 gal polycarb pan for <$280 USD. Still would have the bother of vacuum packing but well worth the cook time savings I would think.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

What kind of numbers are you talking about? Can you see a consistent pattern to walk in business, such as volume and times of day?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

You throw it on the grill the minute you see them walking in.  That's all.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

We already offer incentives for call in orders. In this day and age its all go go go. Customers expect to be able to place an order, pay, and receive their order with their change. Obviously within reason. I mean we're not a McDonalds, but if we can't serve some of our staple menu items on the fly, we'd lose that business to someone else who can. Probably not to McDonalds /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. I certainly hope not.

There is an array of businesses that offer decent to good food on the go. Most pizza franchises offer slices on the go. You have chipotle who is doing a very good job. Subway, etc..

Our skewers take about 15 minutes to cook. I know we can decrease that significantly without sacrificing any food quality.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

We already offer incentives for call in orders. In this day and age its all go go go. Customers expect to be able to place an order, pay, and receive their order with their change. Obviously within reason. I mean we're not a McDonalds, but if we can't serve some of our staple menu items on the fly, we'd lose that business to someone else who can. Probably not to McDonalds







. I certainly hope not.

There is an array of businesses that offer decent to good food on the go. Most pizza franchises offer slices on the go. You have chipotle who is doing a very good job. Subway, etc..

Our skewers take about 15 minutes to cook. I know we can decrease that significantly without sacrificing any food quality.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

chefwriter said:


> The term "platter" is making me concerned. How many items are on the platter and why does everyone order that for lunch? Are they really eating a platter of food for a quick business lunch or are they interested in the meats and the sides that would be included? Are they eating in house or getting it to go? The sides could be pre-portioned, ready for service so some of the 15 minutes is not spent getting the platter ready.
> 
> It's tough to answer all this without seeing your operation.


A platter consists of a half pound skewer of chicken,lamb,pork, or beef. It is served with rice, potatoes, bread, and a side of salad. Rice is precooked in the morning and placed in a steamer. Potatoes are also cooked 80% and need only two minutes. Salad is part of morning prep.

Basically, we can have the whole platter ready in 2 minutes. The meat is the bottleneck.


chefwriter said:


> Other meats could be cut in smaller or thinner pieces that will cook faster on a grill.
> 
> Buy an Alto Sham cook and hold unit or holding cabinet. They aren't cheap but would help in your situation. You can have enough meats precooked an hour before service, held in the unit and grilled per order without losing quality. I don't know how you would do it without the Alto Sham without losing a lot of quality.


The way the cuts are made and subsequently skewered, we can't significantly change the size without changing the food.

Our meats are always cooked and served fresh. A holding cabinet will hold it for an hour or so without sacrificing quality, but beyond that, consider a drop in quality, or an increase in food cost via waste. Especially given the unpredictable nature of orders and rushes. We can afford this for rice and potatoes, but meat costs are on a different scale.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> What kind of numbers are you talking about? Can you see a consistent pattern to walk in business, such as volume and times of day?


The first number is average customer wait time. Even if we don't factor in walk-ins, if we can do this without sacrificing quality or safety, we'd be getting rid of potentially our biggest bottle neck. Also, most of our walk-ins are pickups preordered. We have a lot of that, but we're also located on a busy street, and what we don't have is a piece of that business; customers and students on the go who just want to pick something up in time to eat and enjoy the rest of their break. I get embarrassed when a customer walks in, orders a $10 pita wrap, and has to wait 15 minutes for it to be ready. Why would they when they can get a subway or shawarma in under 2 minutes?


kuan said:


> You throw it on the grill the minute you see them walking in. That's all.


Can't predict what will be ordered. Even if we could, the time it takes for them to walk in is not more than a minute, i'm looking to shave 10.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

JohnPC said:


> I agree with eloki but while I'm a proponent of SV and a seller of accessories for it I would think it would depend on what 80% cooked is? Maybe someone with more experience can help out here but if you're par-cooking meat below the pasteurization temperature (low 130's) is there a danger of pathogen development that post-grilling would not deal with? If it isn't a worry or if your pre-cook temperatures are 130F (55C) or above I would consider SV. If cost and/or capacity is an issue you could go with a circulator and 5.5 gal polycarb pan for <$280 USD. Still would have the bother of vacuum packing but well worth the cook time savings I would think.


Cost is not an issue (within reason of course). We have more of an issue with space.

80% is just a guesstimate. The point is I don't want a skewer to take 15 minutes to prepare. It will encourage more walk-in, and at the same time increase output efficiency, especially during rushes.

We cut, marinate, skewer the meat, then put it in the fridge. We've made our kitchen open so customers can see. Customers like to see their food being grilled.

Ideally, i'd like to cook it to a certain point then refrigerate it. When a customer places their order, we'd throw the skewer on the grill to complete cooking and to grill mark.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)




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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

Sandbagging will only do so much. And it's not feasible outside a rush.

I'd really like to cut the cooking times . what would be the best method?

Does anyone have a tried and tested methodology?

I think what I'll do is cook at low temperature to retain moisture. Once it's 80% cooked, I would let it sit at room temperature until it cools, slap on a bit of butter, and store it in an air tight container, ready to be grill marked and fully cooked when ordered.

What should I watch out for? Which step should I improve? What about SV, would it be better if I chose that route?

Thank you all for the quick responses and advice.


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## nate (Aug 2, 2014)

On the topic of using a Shaam, i ran a test on a FWE moisture holding cabinet to stage stakes. we could hold NY Strip for a couple of hours no problem. I would assume if you can get the right setting in most moisture holding cabinets you could at least cut down times on one specific protein, or proteins that can stay held at a similar internal temperature.

Loaded raw steaks and let the holding cabinet bring up and hold at 130F. Seared to order.





  








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nate


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Jul 23, 2015


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

greekexpress said:


> Sandbagging will only do so much. And it's not feasible outside a rush.
> 
> I'd really like to cut the cooking times . what would be the best method?
> 
> ...


Frankly you can so tell when you're slowing down. Adjust accordingly. SV and other methods are basically doing the same thing except you don't have instant control over how much you do. You have to do cook a lot of it and hope you don't run out since you can't do SV on the fly, and then you have to chill your extra product and then reheat it back the next day if you want to use it again. Safe but not exactly tops on quality.

If you really do not believe you can gauge the ebb and flow of your lunch service then the solution would be to par cook it on the grill or even fully cook it, and then put it back on the grill. You will still have to bring it back to temp.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

kuan said:


> Frankly you can so tell when you're slowing down. Adjust accordingly. SV and other methods are basically doing the same thing except you don't have instant control over how much you do. You have to do cook a lot of it and hope you don't run out since you can't do SV on the fly, and then you have to chill your extra product and then reheat it back the next day if you want to use it again. Safe but not exactly tops on quality.
> 
> If you really do not believe you can gauge the ebb and flow of your lunch service then the solution would be to par cook it on the grill or even fully cook it, and then put it back on the grill. You will still have to bring it back to temp.


Rush time afternoons are exponentially more valuable than mornings. A proper technique for par cooking and storing the meats in the morning will remove our biggest bottle neck during rushes and allow us improve our walkins.

You can't do SV on the fly, but we'd be doing what we're currently doing in the mornings with meat prep. The only difference would be the addition of a few steps to relieve some of the pressure in the afternoons.

Usually mornings we'd prepare between 40-100 lbs, so even if we were to do SV, we'd prepare enough that we wouldn't worry about running out.

I want to cook at 80% so the meat would only take 4 minutes to cook. Its also crucial to avoid or minimize as much as possible loss in humidity, texture, or taste.

From what i'm seeing thus far SV may be the best option, but i haven't been able to confirm that yet.

cook in oven, store, then refrigerate or SV, store, then refrigerate? Where do i experience the least/no loss in quality? is there an alternative

I'm also wondering what type of equipment i would need to SV 100 lbs. of meat. at a time.


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## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

I thinks Nate's suggestion is the most feasible one. Just load up a Shaam with raw skewers and keep it at 130(FYI only useful if you know your volume pretty well, as you will need to cook or trow out any leftovers after the rush).

SV is awesome but not ideal with high volume.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Is there any "law" that says the grilled item HAS to be 3/4" thick? I
If you pound the meat items thinner, they will obviously cook faster, and can be griiled to order. 


Just a thought.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

mgm0 said:


> I thinks Nate's suggestion is the most feasible one. Just load up a Shaam with raw skewers and keep it at 130(FYI only useful if you know your volume pretty well, as you will need to cook or trow out any leftovers after the rush).
> 
> SV is awesome but not ideal with high volume.


volume is predictable within a certain range based on the day or event, but underestimate and wait time suffers, overestimate and increase food cost.

I'm going to try with chicken first. I'll cook it until it reaches about 130 degrees in the oven. I'll let it cool to room temp, then store in the fridge.

Later i'll grill it for about 4 minutes (or until it reaches 165)

i'll be looking for change in texture, humidity, or taste. I'll play around with the numbers and timing until i get it right.

Let me know if anyone has any suggestions or tips


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## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

Cooking in an oven and holding it in a box\oven are way different.

The idea of putting it in the box while you are on a rush is that the internal temp is high without being cooked, as to improve your cooking times without sacrificing quality. If you heat it up first and let it cool down, there will be no point as the meat will still be cold inside at the time of re-cooking. 

Beware that 130f or 55c is not really cooking, just warming something up. Cook it fully or throw it away, don't keep it (specially for chicken).

Thing is you'll have to kill all the bacteria that developed in the time it took for it to reach that temp. Surface bacteria and to a lesser extent the internal bacteria. You can only bring it to these kinds of temps if you are going to cook the meat in the extremely near future.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I think you are a bit hung up on 80%.  In this type of situation, fast paced quick serve limited service it will be extremely difficult to comply with sous vide procedures.  The other side of sous vide is the HAACP procedures you have to follow to ensure sterility of the product while it is sealed in the bag.  You do not want anything incubating for hours while you wait for it to cook.  There will be different cook times and temps as well for different items as you very well know.  A medium for beef is for all intents and purposes is raw for chicken.

I still believe that you can feel the ebb and flow of the clientele after a couple weeks and adjust accordingly.  Extra hands on the hot side during lunch, two registers open, one damn good expo in the window, and make that window huge.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I'm not familiar with your business or clientele. I'm hearing the wrench is when your foot traffic comes in. Can you identify some of your top sellers for that foot traffic and develop a 'grab and go' menu.

Things that can be almost fully or premade and just put together and wrap. You can use an add-on for incentive. piece of baklava or mini salad. Just a thought


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## johnpc (Jun 1, 2015)

greekexpress said:


> I'm also wondering what type of equipment i would need to SV 100 lbs. of meat. at a time.


Would you need to do 100 lbs at a time? That would be a very big pan considering you need separation between pouches for good temperature distribution and even circulation. During operating hours you could do first in / first out with the pouches or do the same with multiple racks and "process" 100 lbs. without needing to have all 100 lbs. in the pan at one time. Just guessing but you probably will not get more than 40 lbs. of cutlets in a 8" deep full size pan . Always can go to a bigger pan though .


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

mgm0 said:


> Cooking in an oven and holding it in a box\oven are way different.
> 
> The idea of putting it in the box while you are on a rush is that the internal temp is high without being cooked, as to improve your cooking times without sacrificing quality. If you heat it up first and let it cool down, there will be no point as the meat will still be cold inside at the time of re-cooking.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to avoid a holding cabinet for three reasons. 1) Space; We're looking to add more equipment to our kitchen. Add that to what we already have, and any equipment has to provide very good value to be included. 2) When it is steady, it will not be feasible at all to use it 3) when it is busy, we will increase food cost via added waste.

I went to visit one of our competitors. I was waiting in line, ordered, and received my order within several minutes. I know he precooks the meats in the morning, but i don't know exactly what he's doing. This is why i'm so insistent on doing it this way as opposed to using a holding cabinet. It took him several minutes to prepare what we prepare in at least 15. The food did taste good and you can not tell it was precooked and heated.

How do you think our competitor is doing this?


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

kuan said:


> I think you are a bit hung up on 80%. In this type of situation, fast paced quick serve limited service it will be extremely difficult to comply with sous vide procedures. The other side of sous vide is the HAACP procedures you have to follow to ensure sterility of the product while it is sealed in the bag. You do not want anything incubating for hours while you wait for it to cook. There will be different cook times and temps as well for different items as you very well know. A medium for beef is for all intents and purposes is raw for chicken.
> 
> I still believe that you can feel the ebb and flow of the clientele after a couple weeks and adjust accordingly. Extra hands on the hot side during lunch, two registers open, one damn good expo in the window, and make that window huge.


I'm seeing that SV is not the route we want to take right now. Just with the volume of meats we cook and equipment footprint required makes it not worth it right now.

I'm not sticking to 80%. What I'm trying to do is par cook the meat to a point that it only needs 4 minutes of grilling for it to be ready. I calculated par cooking chicken until it reaches 125-150 and then cooling it would be sufficient.

Our competitor is doing something succesfully, so I know its doable. We're trying to do it the safest, most efficient way, and without losing quality.

Right now I'm not thinking about beef, lamb, or pork. I want to successfully do it with chicken, and then worry about the other meats. They all require different cooking times and it makes sense to do one at a time.

I want the chicken to cook on the grill for four minutes and be ready to serve to customers. What do i have to do before hand to achieve this?


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

JohnPC said:


> Would you need to do 100 lbs at a time? That would be a very big pan considering you need separation between pouches for good temperature distribution and even circulation. During operating hours you could do first in / first out with the pouches or do the same with multiple racks and "process" 100 lbs. without needing to have all 100 lbs. in the pan at one time. Just guessing but you probably will not get more than 40 lbs. of cutlets in a 8" deep full size pan . Always can go to a bigger pan though .


I would need to do about 100lbs of chicken at a time. That can be divided, but considering I also have other meats, and considering the time it takes for SV, it seems like the solution is more daunting than the problem.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

1)  Brine the chicken.

2)  Fully cook it and use a blast chiller.

I would not take a chance on partially cooked chicken.

Either that or use a double deck infra red broiler.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

panini said:


> I'm not familiar with your business or clientele. I'm hearing the wrench is when your foot traffic comes in. Can you identify some of your top sellers for that foot traffic and develop a 'grab and go' menu.
> 
> Things that can be almost fully or premade and just put together and wrap. You can use an add-on for incentive. piece of baklava or mini salad. Just a thought


Top sellers are grilled meats. ie. Souvlaki skewer platters and pita wraps. Everything is prepared in advance (potatoes, rice, salad)

Everything in our menu can be prepared within minutes, minus the pizza and the meat.

The pizza we can do conveyor ovens to speed up, but we're probably not going to considering what we have to sacrifice in order to do so.

That leaves us with the meats.

We don't have much foot traffic, but we want to change that. The biggest reason being our best sellers take too long to prepare for a customer to sit there and wait for it. We have a small dine in area, but our business is almost entirely take out and delivery.


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## greekexpress (Jul 23, 2015)

kuan said:


> 1) Brine the chicken.
> 
> 2) Fully cook it and use a blast chiller.
> 
> ...


A double deck would give me better juicier meats, but would not necessarily reduce cook times.

We're going to be centralizing our restaurants' prep soon, so a blast chiller sounds like a good idea then.

Our competitor does not have a blast chiller. And they precook the meats in the morning. How do you think this is done without compromising food quality or safety?


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## johnpc (Jun 1, 2015)

greekexpress said:


> I would need to do about 100lbs of chicken at a time. That can be divided, but considering I also have other meats, and considering the time it takes for SV, it seems like the solution is more daunting than the problem.


Assuming you go with a 13 gal. tank and your food-to-water bath ratio is 50/50 you should be able to get around 60 lbs.or so in there. You may could get by with a single circulator but since you're pushing it you may need two.

While I'm a proponent of SV I can understand that at some point your capacity requirements (and logistics including vacuum bagging) become, as you say, more daunting than the problem. Than again a problem is just a solution waiting to be realized.


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## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

Now let's look at this from an objective standpoint.

Your problem?

Getting the internal temperature of the meat to a certain point in a limited amount of time right?

Solutions?

Precooking? Don't think it is gonna work. Why? Even though the meat will be cooked it will still take some time for it to get hot plus depending on the kind of meat(specially pork or chicken) when its internal temperature is hot enough the outside will be overcooked and dry. That is why I don't think this method will work for you. This could potentially work for chicken thighs and some of the fattier cuts of meat and pork. What kind of meat do you use? be specific. dimensions?  can it be altered? what does your competitor use?

It sounds to me like your competitor is cooking the meat, holding it and searing to order.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

greekexpress said:


> Our competitor does not have a blast chiller. And they precook the meats in the morning. How do you think this is done without compromising food quality or safety?


Heh.. well the 4 hour rule.  Maybe they bend it, twist it, a bit?


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

greekexpress said:


> I would need to do about 100lbs of chicken at a time.


How much chicken can you grill at one time? How many hours are you open?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

El Pollo Loco does it.  Takes a big grill.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I know the Pollo Loco near us has chicken on the grill from open to close. It's a great concept to reduce waste because they are able to use any and all chicken that isn't sold in whole pieces for their bowls, salads, burritos, and quesadillas. This maybe something GreekExpress can take into consideration on R&D on new items.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I was pretty much headed in the same direction as @panini & @kuan

There is a small, almost legendary, taco stand in my area that does phenomenal business with just a few minute wait for food. They have the grill going all day and fire batches throughout the day. There is a definitely a large middle ground between firing all at one time then reheating, and firing one at a time.

It takes 15 minutes to grill your meats so use this timeline against your 100# of chicken, etc. against volume of business to figure out how big of a batch to fire at one time. !5 minutes is easily workable. You are overthinking it.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

greekexpress said:


> I'm trying to avoid a holding cabinet for three reasons. 1) Space; We're looking to add more equipment to our kitchen. Add that to what we already have, and any equipment has to provide very good value to be included. 2) When it is steady, it will not be feasible at all to use it 3) when it is busy, we will increase food cost via added waste.
> 
> I went to visit one of our competitors. I was waiting in line, ordered, and received my order within several minutes. I know he precooks the meats in the morning, but i don't know exactly what he's doing. This is why i'm so insistent on doing it this way as opposed to using a holding cabinet. It took him several minutes to prepare what we prepare in at least 15. The food did taste good and you can not tell it was precooked and heated.
> 
> How do you think our competitor is doing this?


 I think you have your answer. You visited the competitor. He's precooking the meats in the morning and you observe that as a customer you can't tell it was precooked. I greatly admire and respect your desire to avoid loss in quality. I wish more restaurants would feel this way. But I think you are now over thinking the situation and overlooking the obvious. Precooking the meats doesn't necessarily mean a loss in quality. You thought it would, you now know it does not. His precise methods may not be your precise methods.

Take five or ten or fifteen or twenty orders of your meats, pre cook them, cool them, then heat and serve in what ever way works for your operation. In other words, run a test. Find the flaws if there are any. Try it again with any adjustments. Develop your own system. At some point you have to stop analyzing and start doing. Then analyze the results. This experimental process may cost you a bit in product but with your focus on quality I'm sure you won't let the customers feel the effects of your experiments.

Buying expensive equipment may simply be unnecessary.


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