# Masamoto HC



## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Damned... I did it again! Just bought a knife that I don't need !.

I just ordered a 21 Cm. Masamoto HC. I was going to order the 24 but I already have a Mac professional and the Konosuke HD (Along some Germans of the same lenght that now just lay in the drawer) 24 is a lenght that fits me very well, but I couldn't justify the expense and I doubt that something can replace the "Kono" for prep, and for the harsher cutting I already have the MAC.

I tried to find some kind of excuse and I got the perfect one... I don't have a good Petty... So an HC Petty is a good choice, right?... Not found!, seems like you can't get a Masamoto HC Petty.

Ok, a 21 Cms Gyuto is kinda too long to be a petty... But what the heck!!!... Instead of thinking that I'm a consumist that wastes his hard earned money in something that I don't need...I convinced myself that I really need a good petty and that a 21 Cms. Knife is not an small gyuto...It's a long petty!... And I don't have a petty...Right??...Ok, There you have my pathetic, lame and less than perfect excuse... But maybe it wasn't that bad...It convinced me, and that was the point after all !

Whatever... I just did it. I'm sure that I'm going to enjoy it.

I ordered a few days ago a Gesshin 8000 stone, and after placing the order... I tought... The only knife "worthy" of that kind of high polishing is the Konosuke, why not getting something else?. So, I just did it.

The knife has intrigued me since long time ago and I think that the only way to satisfy such curiosity is to experiment it personally.

I'll keep you posted as soon as I get it, I'll give you all an honest point of view and all my impressions on the "mythical" asimetric bevel Yo gyuto.

Best regards.

Luis


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## dreamwrx (Oct 30, 2012)

I feel your pain... yet congratulations..


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Great knife. 

BDL


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

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Ok guys, here it is... I'm in a rush, still out of my town but I had to kep you all posted.

On a quick note, Mark's service was great, neatly packed, it arrived on time and the knife looks great, it has a little "crack" on the handle, wich for me is no biggie at all, so far I can't review it, but the handle feels a bit thiner than my 21 Cm. Mac, but not bad either. We'll see once it hits the cutting board.

Regards to everybody!

Luis


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

First experience with the knife: Today the knife saw action by the first time. I got extremely busy because I'm returning from a one week vacation and as you can imagine, I had a ton of issues to solve, kitchen related but not cooking related, wich was frustrating because I wanted to try the knife,and by the time that I had the chance of doing some prep, the whole mise en place was ready, but when I saw some bell peppers on the grill to make the "grilled ratatouille" that we serve as a side dish, I told everybody that I was going to do the dicing, and I did it.

And I couldn't resist the temptation of slicing a tomato too, wich was OK... Nothing remarkable but not bad.

My first impressions...

*Fit...* Perfect, handle felt very nice and the profile of the knife felt very good too (remember, it was something easy to cut, and not that much quantity, so, don't take my words as gospel, it's a just a very quick note).

*Sharpness OOTB:* Average, not bad for a new knife but very far from what a sharpening aficionado wants and needs.

*Reactiveness:* High. After only 20 minutes of dicing and despite of having being washed with an sponge INMEDIATELY after finishing the dicing, it got stained, but this time instead of freaking out I just washed it rinsed it and enjoyed the ride, I'm going to let this knife take his own patina for a period of time, maybe it will age gracefully and develop a "personality" of it's own, I'm not into patinas but I'll not be anal about it and let's see how the knife evolves, if I don't like it or just can't stand it, I'll get some baking soda and I'll do some hard scrubbing, but time will tell. I'll try to enjoy the knife's own nature.

*Sharpening:* After the initial cutting, it went to the stones and it took a wicked edge, it went to the bester 1200 (I didn't want to use the beston 500), the Suehiro Rika 5000 and finally the Gesshin 8000 (More on my new stone later, now just a clue: EXCELLENT) and it got SHARP.

To have a comparison, I went to my mum's house and asked her to lend me her 21 Cms. Mac professional (My gift to her long ago). To my surprise, the Masamoto had some kind of "hardness" feeling similar to the stainless steel of the Mac, not as soft and easy to "burr" as the Konosuke (Maybe the thinness of the kono helps) or the Tojiros ITK, but not bad.

The asymmetric bevel was no problem since I sharpen my Mac that way, exactly the same, and to my surprise, the edge of the Masamoto OOTB looked pretty much as the edge of my old Mac (wich was not originally asymmetric, but based on the advice and comments from this forum, I changed the profile to give it a different bevel...Wich BTW works awesome).

*Edge retention:* No idea, I'll let you know in some weeks.

So far very happy with the new toy, I feel like I got myself a very nice piece that is going to give me lots of satisfactions.

Here are the pics of the knife after his first use, you can see the patina:





  








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Best regards.

Luis


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

great review. looking forward to reading about the edge retention.


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## t-bj (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes, really looking forward, to hear from you.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The Masamoto HC is as good as a mass-produced, western handled, carbon chef's knife gets.  The only drawback is that it's so good it can get a little boring.  Felicidades.  Mazel Tov.  Whatever. 

There are perhaps a couple of knives in the HC's (admittedly narrow) category which compare equally; but I'd rate the Misono Sweden and Sabatier Nogent at a heartbeat less; and the Masamoto CT, and K-Sab and T-I au carbones at another half step behind. 

The real action in the mass produced, western handled chef's knives is in stainless and semi stainless -- especially with yo-lasers.  It seems though, that nearly all of the exciting chef's knives currently on the market are yo-gyuto.  

BDL


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## t-bj (Nov 13, 2012)

Some knives, seem to have little or no personality, so i can
only agree to much on that perspective. I am a great
fan of the carbon sabs, the only argument i have on
those, is that the spine tend to be a little to wide, which
can create some trouble, when cutting big onions, never-
theless, they are exellent when cutting meat. I think it
has something to do, with the perfect "v" shape of The
blade, did i mention, that i have a couple of carbon sabs
myself. Nevertheless i think that japaneese knives, tend
to be more convex from the spine to the edge, and that
could make them more suitable for cutting vegetables,and not
sticking that much to it. So i guess that all perfect knife
just might not exist, we all know that, but the nogents 
might come close. Thanks to BDL for his tecnical know-
how and his willingness to share.
TBJ


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Update after almost a couple of weeks of use...

As I mentioned earlier in this post, the knife left a lot to be desired on the OOTB edge... Wich I solved right away "retouching it" with my bester 1200, suehiro rika 5000 and finally the Gesshin 8000. I worked on it thinking on respecting the original edge, and I rised a small burr, I didn't want to change anything on the knife profile.

On my first cut, I felt the magic... Cool knife, sharp and very reactive, I cutted those grilled peppers and the first impression was good.

The next time I had the chance of doing something more substantial... I took some tomatoes that needed to be sliced, and everything went fine...With the first tomato, with the second I started getting the feeling of a dull knife... Sad thing...I honed it a little with the Idahone 1200 rod and it worked fine again...For a couple of tomatoes more...WTF???/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

Is this the mythical Masamoto HC?... I can't believe it... There must be something wrong, this can't be happening, was my first tought.

Was the 8000 stone too much for the knife?...Was I getting an "slippery" edge?...To me it felt dull, but I wanted to think that there must be something that I was doing wrong.

The next day I paid a visit to my mum's house and asked for her 21 Cm Mac to get a fair comparison. I sharpened both at the same time, same progression starting from 1200, same angles (I gave to my mac and to my mum's mac an asimetrical edge that looks pretty much like the one that the Masamoto has originally) and checked them with my 20x magnification glass to see if I was doing something wrong, but nothing, everything looked fine.

I took both knives to my kitchen in the restaurant, I told my prep guy to help me with some other tasks and I took his position, I divided the scallions, the tomatoes, the onions, the cilantro, the serrano peppers, the bell peppers, and the shallots in two equal parts. I was going to give an equal test to both knives...Long story short...The Mac was the winner by far on the edge retention department...Something had to be wrong, maybe I got a lemon...Who knows? I was puzzled and disappointed.

I finished the prep with the Mac and I called it a day on testing knives. Later in the service, my salad cook ran short on diced tomatoes and I grabbed the knife again, I tought that it was the Mac, but I took the Masamoto in the rush, I diced the tomato with the dull knife and just by the feeling of a knife squeezing and torturing the veggie I got upset...That was the straw that broke the camel's back!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/mad.gif

When the service finished I took the knife and went back home to give it some badass sharpening...No more caressing or "retouching", my patience plumetted down to zero and that crappy piece was going to get some love from my Beston 500.

I prepared the stones, took care of having all of them absolutely flattened and propperly soaked and then the harsh treatment started, I went for a HUGE burr on the 500 stone, I didn't want to leave a single square micron of the old edge, it was going to be an absolute new beginning.

Once I got the edge to my satisfaction with the 500, I went for the bester 1200, after that for the suehiro rika 5000, then the Takenoko 6000 and finally for the gesshin 8000, believe me, this time I was very anal about the whole process and I was looking for the best that I could do with my not so huge experience, but I was going to use all my resources.

When I finished, I tested the edge, and it was scary sharp (just like on other ocasions just coming from the stone)... I sliced a tomato and it went fine, I passed the knife on my arm and it gave me a clean shave, and finally I did the paper test and it went fine. But I wasn't at ease yet, edge was never a problem...Edge RETENTION was.

I went back to the restaurant ready to slice a case of tomatoes, even if we didn't need them. I checked the staff menu for the next day and to my surprise it was "Ceviche" wich means serious dicing...I got the tomatoes, the onions, the serrano chilies, the cilantro and even the limes and I did all the prep in advance.

First tomato...Perfect...Second tomato...Perfect...Third tomato and still perfect!! Way to go! Very cool, there was light at the end of the tunnel! I finished the 5 pounds of tomato and the knife was just perfect, I continued with all the veggies and paying a lot of attention on the feedback of the knife...Everything went perfect!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Damned! I was happy...But still to early to call it a victory.

Next day... A big bunch of cilantro, several scallions bunches, diced shallots, and a couple of tomatoes at the end, just to see if the edge was still there. No problem, second session went with flying colors!

And so on...Until today, the knife retains a great edge , I haven't used the rod at all and has been almost a week. The knife is not getting a very heavy duty but it's getting his share of work and I'm paying a lot of attention to it's performance. At this point, the edge has been there much longer than the mac...This is exactly what I was expecting from a knife with such high credentials.

Too early for celebration, but so far, very very satisfied, the edge retention is there, the very sharp edge too, and the fit of the knife overpassed my expectations...I can't explain very well but I don't get fatigued hands at all, it's just a very comfortable knife to work with.

The patina?... Pics will come soon, but I think that this is what a patina must look like, it doesn't look dirty or ugly... Actually, I think that I'm going to let it age with grace and to get used to like it for his very own nature. Time will tell, but the look of the blade doesn't bother me at all.

It reacted very fast and drastically on the first use, but from that day, the evolution has been slow and smooth, I think that after the initial use, it starts to settle down. I still rinse it and dry it right inmediately after use, and BTW...I'm cutting a lot of limes with it and the reaction is still very reasonable.

In a few words...I'm a happy happy man and after the hard sharpening session it became exactly what I was expecting from such knife ! I'll keep you updated.

Any toughts or input will be more than welcome, I don't understand what was going on at first and if there are ideas to clarify it will be very enriching.

Best regards from México.

Luis


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

from what i've learned on forums like this is that with carbons, acids really literally eat up the edge. looks like your knife is finally settling from it's original condition. hopefully it'll keep getting better as it "ages" and gets used properly. patina needed to settle in i guess.

=D

i feel the same for the tojiro dp's, no character at all. boring. lol. but it does the job, which is what counts.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Welcome to tough alloys. The factory edge was not only obtuse, but had fatigued steel behind it. Knives get dull quickly when they get out of true, and when you sharpened it gently, you weren't so much sharpening it as truing it -- then it went out of true. When you sharpened it "hard," you chased the factory burr to the point where it fell off and you finally thinned the knife AND got a fresh, metal edge.

A fresh metal edge is always the goal. What you'll find with the HC over time is that its edge is very durable, and the knife will maintain longer and better with a steel, requiring even _less_ sharpening than your MAC.

BDL


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

boar_d_laze said:


> Welcome to tough alloys. The factory edge was not only obtuse, but had fatigued steel behind it. Knives get dull quickly when they get out of true, and when you sharpened it gently, you weren't so much sharpening it as truing it -- then it went out of true. When you sharpened it "hard," you chased the factory burr to the point where it fell off and you finally thinned the knife AND got a fresh, metal edge.
> 
> A fresh metal edge is always the goal. What you'll find with the HC over time is that its edge is very durable, and the knife will maintain longer and better with a steel, requiring even _less_ sharpening than your MAC.
> 
> BDL


Got it! Makes perfect sense BDL. Thanks for the reply, but now I'm curious... Why an obtuse and fatigued steel on a brand new knife? Is that normal for this kind of alloys? Is it just a result of mass production and not so good quality control on the sharpening department?, is that the standart for some brands?

BTW...One more day with a good deal of prepping and the knife still performs like a champ.

Regards.

Luis


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Luis,

A really horrible factory edge is typical of a lot of Japanese makers.  They get it sharp as quickly and cheaply as possible, with a good enough edge to play with -- but not good enough to keep.  They figure you're going to profile and sharpen the knife as soon as you get it, or (as is very common in Japan) have the store where you bought the knife sharpen it. 

If it's any comfort, K-Sab and Thiers-Issard are just as bad with their carbons. 

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Getting a knife with a cracked handle is certainly a disappointment...no matter how you slice it. Not my idea of great or even very good service if the knife wasn't inspected before it shipped or was damaged in freight. That's not the first complaint we've seen here about similar issues from that vendor. This seems to be a bigger issue for over seas customers.

The old adage the cheapest price is not always the best deal can ring very true if foreign freight is involved.

There's nothing unusual about needing to true up an edge on a new knife. However if you had to start with a 500 to get a workable edge this was a lot more than a bit more than a little edge truing. A great edge OOB is a nice bonus but it's rare on production knives IME.

 There are those here who would likely have a field day with this if it shipped from the competition. The Carbonext comes to mind. However the simple truth is your knife is no different than those received with "issues" from Koki (Sans the cracked handle on your knife). I'm sure many would find that a far more egregious combination and send it right back if they could accept the freight cost.

There are knives that suffer from poor quality control and they can present serious issues down the road like the Moritaka and some of the Richmonds with over grinding etc. Some production errors on a knife are going to degrade the quality to a point that no amount of time on the stones will fix it or the frustration level would just exceed the satisfaction level.

You can tell your slipping down the Rabbit hole when your no longer happy with OOB sharpness. Consider that for the vast majority their knives will be the sharpest they ever see them OOB.

Hopefully the handle doesn't present problems down the road. Other than that Masamoto makes a great knife and I hope you enjoy the new blade.

It should be a nice compliment to the Kono.

Dave


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

Maybe the fault in the handle means he'll just have to try put a cool, custom handle on it


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

boar_d_laze said:


> Luis,
> 
> A really horrible factory edge is typical of a lot of Japanese makers. They get it sharp as quickly and cheaply as possible, with a good enough edge to play with -- but not good enough to keep. They figure you're going to profile and sharpen the knife as soon as you get it, or (as is very common in Japan) have the store where you bought the knife sharpen it.
> 
> ...


Sounds logic, actually sharpening an OOTB knife makes sense once that you know that a poor edge is expected, but since Macs and the Konosuke came with a good edge when brand new I wasn't expecting that... Not a bad thing once you know that it's the standard procedure, so... Word of advice for newbies buying this knives...You better get ready to sharpen the new knife, or ask Mark from chefknivestogo.com for his special service of sharpening before shipping.

Update...It's been two more days of hard work with the knife in a professional kitchen and it got his first honing session, it went perfect, the feeling is very different from the Mac, the Konosuke and the Tojiros ITK. It gives you a "hard" feeling, but the results were good.

The knife was still reasonably sharp but I wanted to have it performing at his peak.

BTW...I rinsed it but I didn't wipe it dry on pourpose to see how it reacted... Well...It reacted and got stained/rusty. Nothing than a green 3M sponge and a bit of hard scrubbing couldn't repair.

Pics coming in a couple of days.


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

DuckFat said:


> Getting a knife with a cracked handle is certainly a disappointment...no matter how you slice it. Not my idea of great or even very good service if the knife wasn't inspected before it shipped or was damaged in freight. That's not the first complaint we've seen here about similar issues from that vendor. This seems to be a bigger issue for over seas customers.
> 
> The old adage the cheapest price is not always the best deal can ring very true if foreign freight is involved.
> 
> ...


Hi Dave...

The chipping on the handle is not like a big "crack" or a dent, is pretty much like an small chipping, more like a piece of wood that has an splinter coming out (I don't know if I'm being clear on the subject...As you know english is not my first language and maybe I'm not explaining myself very well). Believe me, is the kind of flaws that you really need to look for paying huge attention, is the kind of issues that you see when inspecting on a meticulous way, but can't see on a day to day use. Let's say that the handle was at his 99%...No biggie. And I know that if I asked for another knife to Mark he would have done it gladly, trust me, the guy has been a very stand up vendor with me.

I'll try to take pictures from the handle, but since my camera lens has no macro capabilities, I'm not sure if the flaw can be seen in the pic. Let's see.

So far (After the sharpening from 500 to 8000) the knife has performed to my expectations, would I recomend it to a friend?... Absolutely yes, but with a fair warning on getting it professionally sharpened before shipping if he is not serious about free hand sharpening.

It won't be the knife that I would recommend for my average home cook friend or to my coleagues that see the knives just like simple tools of the trade, but for those commited with his knives and passionate about sharpening, this will be a recomended piece.

But is too soon to endorse the knife in a 100%...I think that I need to work with it for at least a couple of months more to get a real sense. Hopefully it won't let me down.

I'll keep you all posted.

Best regards.

Luis


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Luis J said:


> Believe me, is the kind of flaws that you really need to look for paying huge attention, is the kind of issues that you see when inspecting on a meticulous way, but can't see on a day to day use.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Luis


Luis,

I'm glad to hear that. There's nothing worse than a chip, crack or imperfection in the handle that your can feel in your hand. These really aren't the knives I'd want to re-handle but I'm not into custom handles with the exception of some WA knives and even then only if I had to. That gets expensive quickly. FWIW this series does have a history of inconsistent handle quality but for whatever reason they seem to be better from some dealers than others. I can only surmise that's the result of hand selection which could be impractical for some vendors.

The Masamoto's HC is a great working knife and it certainly won't draw the unwanted attention of a KS which IMO is a very good thing in many professional kitchens.

Dave


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi guys...

Here are some updates on the Patina and I also took a pic of the "chipping" on the handle. I played a bit with a photo edition software to amplify the effects, the contrast is hard to get and some times is not easy to appreciate things very well on an image but I think that the pictures are very clear on that.

The chipping on the handle came a bit too dramatic on the picture, but is something that you can't feel at all.

BTW... Yesterday, the knive got his first re-sharpening session, going from 1200 to 8000. Results were great. I decided to sharpen it again since I was requiring some honing after each bunch of scallions. The session was absolutely necessary, and the results were perfect. Seems like after that first real sharpening the knife got better.

On the patina department, you can see that the knife didn't got much worst than from the first day, patina is still forming but at an steady and slow pass. There are some ugly stains but those are due my little "experiment" of leaving the knife wet overnight...I wanted to know what was going to happen, and now I know exactly what happens and I'll never do it again. I can live with the patina, but for sure in a couple of weeks I'll polish it and maybe I'll force a patina with some pattern that I like more than the shady and cloudy stains that forms naturally.

In a few words... Still happy with the knife.

Here are some pics, let me know your toughts and ideas on it.

Luis





  








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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Nice blue patina! That handle is cracked all the way to the rivet. If your sure you could exchange that one I wouldn't hesitate to do just that. If that's no longer an option maybe there's a way to stabilize it with injectible epoxy? Total bummer either way. ;(

Dave


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi guys...

_I got a PM from a fellow member of this forum asking me about this particular knife, and since now I have more than 3 months of experience with it, I can be much more objective and share my deal of (bad) experience with such piece._

_Here's the text for that guy, but I consider it a responsability to share such info with the rest of you:_

Good question buddy... I haven't been posting often in the forum, but I want to do an update on the post that I wrote on the Masamoto HC, now I have more than 3 months with the knife and I have more experience with it to write about , and if I want to describe the whole experience in just one word, the term will be: Dissapointing /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

As you can see in this thread, the last post was optimistic, but once that the sharp was gone, I resharpened it from the bester 1200 (like I do with my Mac, Tojiros, global and Konosuke) but the edge was not retaining the sharpness for long time.

If I want to make the edge to last, I have to make a major sharpening session from the Beston 500, get a HUGE burr and work hard removing a lot of metal and then proceed with my usual progression 1200-5000-6000-8000.

That's the only way to get a good edge on the HC, wich doesn't happen with my other knives. As you see in the post I used a 21 Cm. Mac professional for comparison, and the Masamoto outperformed it on the edge retention, but something to consider is that I get almost the same result with both knives, as long as I sharpen the HC from 500, and with the Mac, I can start from 1200 w/out needing to remove a lot of metal and the result will be the same edge...Again...The HC outperforms the Mac in the retention department, but the difference is not enough to justify the effort and specially the amount of metal that I have to remove from the HC every time I need a fresh edge. For me a 500 grit is too coarse and maybe an stone that you use only a couple of times a year or to repair any chipping or dent on your edge, and not the stone that you have to use two or three times per month.

I kinda gave up on the HC, and I think that in a couple of weeks I'll get the knife professionally thinned or totally reprofiled with a belt sharpening machine.

Once I do that I'll upload the pics and the whole story... But Don't take my words as gospel, maybe I got a lemon and the rest of the HCs are great pieces, I consider it almost impossible that a knife with such high credentials has a so mediocre performance. I want to think that I got a bad piece.

The good part... Great fit, and the metal is less reactive than at first. I allowed it to develop it's natural patina for almost six weeks and then I polished using BDL baking soda/sponge treatment and I got a shiny knife. Now it doesn't get stained so fast and removing the patina is very easy and quick.

But with this few months of experience with the HC under my belt, I think that my judgment can be more real. I had a lot of faith on this particular knife...But it's gone.

Sometimes I blame myself, but if that were the case...Why my other knives, that I sharpen with the same technique, same stones, and that I use to cut the same ingredients on the same cutting surfaces perform better? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif

I don't know!

Best regards.

P.S. I'll post this (minus your name) in the original thread.

Any input or ideas guys?


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi Ben...

I have experience with other much more affordable carbons like the Tojiros ITK, wich are very affordable and maybe low end...Those are carbon steel and I don't need to remove that much metal to get a good edge. The part that bothers me with the HC is that to get a long lasting edge (10-15 days) I have to go back to 500 grit, wich is something that I don't have to do with the Mac, the Tojiros, the Konosuke or even my old global.

If I want to make it work properly I have to raise a huge burr (Man...I can almost cling from it) on the 500 stone. And with the other knives I can start with the Bester 1200, but if I do so with the HC, it feels as if it were just retouched and the edge last for a very short period of time.

It feels like whenever I get a good and fresh edge, it last for a good period but then it gets too fatigued and I have to start again from zero (name that "zero" 500 grit). Something that makes me think that the metal gets too fatigued is the fact that when it starts feeling dull, I give it a few lights passes on the rod and the knife gets back to life amazingly...But a very short while later (meaning one bunch of scallions later) the knife needs some honing rod love again, and this can last for long time.

And on your original question *Are you impressed by the black slurry on your stone? *I have to answer yes, but my concern is that those amounts of slurry come from a very coarse stone that cuts a lot, I get a good deal of slurry with any of my knives while polishing with the Gesshin 8000 and that one doesn't bother me at all, I know that I'm not removing that much metal with such stone.

On the handle issue, I'll post another pic soon, the one that I posted was edited with "Lightroom" (I played with the "shadow control" ) so that you all could notice it. But next one I post (Now is dark and the light will not help the cause) without enhancing it, you'll see that it's not that bad.

But if you go back to my first posts you will see that I'm kind of newby on this sharpening/knife-aficionado stuff, but getting so great results with my same stones on other knives and not being able to figure out the HC sweet spot is what puzzles me. But maybe is just my lack of experience. I'll keep working on it, maybe before sending it to the belt sharpener, I'll thin it by myself with my stones.

Best regards and inputs are still and always appreciated!


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

i actually bought a used masamoto HC myself on another knife forum and i haven't had to actually sharpen it yet. only touched it up and thinned the shoulder on the tip a bit. that's it so far. i am liking it very much. can't really comment on the sharpening bit yet. will let you know. only been using it a couple weeks so far.

worked it out with a couple kilos of onions a week ago. not much else other than home cooking so far.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hmm. This is rather depressing to me, as I generally adore all things Masamoto. I don't have these issues with KS steel, and I'm sorry to hear that HC isn't performing up to that (frightening) level.

Two notes:

1. Masamoto does not ship its own knives sharpened, unless they've changed their policies in the last couple of years. If you bought from a retailer, which I assume is the case, it would be the retailer's job -- or yours -- to put an edge on the knife. What you started with probably wasn't an OOTB edge the way people usually talk about it, but rather a set-up knife prepared for its first proper sharpening. That explains the first round of problems, but not the rest.

2. As to excitement and personality, I have long had the opinion that the Masamoto's personality lies precisely in being rather low-key and yet scary. No flash, no gee-whiz bells and whistles. But put that screaming edge on and holy s^&* Batman! Which is why I find your experience so upsetting: if a Masamoto won't retain that edge decently, it doesn't have much going for it -- considering the price, I mean.

Anyone else have issues like this with HC steel? I've got two different KS knives, and they're just plain magic.


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Benuser said:


> Hi Luis, just to make sure: have you been using a grooved steel?
> I'm wondering about that fatigued steel. It's not uncommon to find it on brand new blades - has perhaps to do with the buffing procedure - but then it should have gone by now.


Hi Benuser... No grooved steel. Only a fine Idahone ceramic rod that I use with soft and light passes and that works like a magic wand for any knife...Including the HC.


FranzB69 said:


> i actually bought a used masamoto HC myself on another knife forum and i haven't had to actually sharpen it yet. only touched it up and thinned the shoulder on the tip a bit. that's it so far. i am liking it very much. can't really comment on the sharpening bit yet. will let you know. only been using it a couple weeks so far.
> 
> worked it out with a couple kilos of onions a week ago. not much else other than home cooking so far.


Hi Franz... If you're liking the original edge, wait until you sharpen it with good stones and you'll see the magic.


ChrisLehrer said:


> Hmm. This is rather depressing to me, as I generally adore all things Masamoto. I don't have these issues with KS steel, and I'm sorry to hear that HC isn't performing up to that (frightening) level.
> 
> Two notes:
> 
> ...


Hi Chris...

Yes,on the first point, I found out and was inmediately adviced by BDL on how a very basic edge from japanese knives OOTB was to be expected, the only one that I got with good edge (or maybe I didn't have the experience that I have now) were the Mac's. But after that, the Tojiros and Even the Konosuke came acceptable, but nothing compared to what you can do with a good set of stones. But Masamoto was the worst OOTB by far, but then it performed much better after the first hardcore session from 500 to 8000 grit.

And on the second pointer...I'm shocked too. I mean, I still work the knife a lot and it is my battlehorse now (Partialy because I don't care that much anymore of that knife) and since it's a short one -21 Cm- sometimes I use it even for carving and scalloping the duck in my dining room, I know, 4-6 very soft passes on the Idahone fine rod, and the thing becomes an scalpel (for a while) I'll never call it a piece of [email protected] or anything like that,it's a fine knife, is just that I was expecting much more from the knife, and what I got was something maybe *a bit* better than a Mac ( Better edge retention if worked from 500 grit).

I don't know, maybe I had too high expectations on the knife, but it's acceptably expensive, I mean if it were a USD 300+ knife I wold be VERY upset and maybe I could have asked for an exchange or even a refund. But since I didn't broke the bank and I got something a bit more expensive than MAC 21 Cm. $159.95 vs Masamoto HC $164.95 you'll see that 5 bucks are the only difference and that is not what I call a big issue.

On some issues like this, I just chill down and enjoy the ride and I take it as a learning process (Man...Now I have PERSONAL experience with another brand and I'm entitled to have an opinion on my own...Wich I find as cool as when everytime Thomas Alba Edison was failing on getting a good lightbulb and instead of calling it a fail, he just called it a new discovery on how not to make a light bulb).

Now... If some purveyor comes to my kitchen and shows up with a low quality ingredient, THAT's another story, and the kind of things that really make me upset and gets me into arguments, big fights and badmouthing, but this is not the case.

Too bad that I live in another country and that sending the knife to the U.S. is expensive and troublesome, otherwise I could handle it to you and some other guys to check it and get an opinion from people with much more experience than me, and that would help because in that case we could prove that I got a lemon, or maybe that I was too high on expectations. Who knows?

Best regards and thanks to ALL OF YOU for taking the time to write in this post!


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

yep. strop with stones. dry.

=D


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

Benuser said:


> Hey Luis,
> perhaps it's a good idea to try another approach. Don't use your rod anymore, and perform a daily touch up @3-5k, it's just about a few edge trailing strokes probably and verifying for burrs. Normal sharpening after five days. Such a routine should allow you to benefit from the much higher degree of sharpness a carbon blade can offer over a common stainless one.


Hi Ben!

Thanks for the advice, I saw a video from Jon Broida on the subject, is more a lecture than a descriptive video but the advice is great and it may be a solution. Actually, right now I'm going to do that and see how it works.

Good point and thanks for sharing your input.

Luis


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## amused (Jul 29, 2013)

How did this turn out for you? I have the same knife in 240 mm (close to 4 years old now), but haven't experienced your edge retention issue.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Luis knows how to sharpen.  His problem, if not unique, is extremely rare.  I've got some time in with HCs and never experienced it; nor have I ever heard anyone complain of anything similar.  The HC series takes great edges very easily. 

So... it's really puzzling.

What comes to mind is that his particular knife may not have been properly heat treated, because the alloy in his particular knife acts a lot tougher and a lot less strong than it should.  But I'd want to eliminate other things before raising idle speculation to poorly-informed opinion.

If you put money in my hand and a gun to my head I'd bet on it NOT being Luis, and even though Masamoto is Masamoto is Masamoto, crap happens.

I know Mark suggested Luis return it, but Luis's circumstances made that difficult for him and he didn't avail himself of the opportunity.  Seems like one of those things for which there's no good answer.

Too bad,

BDL


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