# Cheftalk is a treasure trove of info on fish and chips, but why doesn't anybody address what Parts o



## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Introduction:  I am a relatively young restaurant owner, basically, i am open minded and have a friend who is a red seal chef, who has gone out of his way to teach me almost everything from how to blanch fries to what knives to use and how to steel them and with what and what to watch out for.

I learned most of my recipes from my mom (not afraid to admit it) and i have put them to good use in my restaurant

I will be introducing a new menu in my restaurant, (mall-food court) and i want to do fish and chips.  I upgraded my fryers to the biggest electric fryers available, but throughout RFPs from different food wholesalers i keep running into the same problem.

What are the best parts of a fish to use?  The loin?  The fillet?  FLT Cut (don't even know what this means?) Sq. Cut (Same with this abbreviation?)

What i have deduced is that a quality F&P does not come out of the package battered, thats on the chef/preparer w/e, but it saves a lot of headache and trial and error, and time.

Thank you for any info you have to offer


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Welcome to Chef talk.  What white fish is available in your area?  Cod is used in a lot of places but many white fishes are used around the world.  When you don't understand the terms your purveyor is using ask the sales rep to explain what a product is and where it comes from.  If they won't or don't know, get another purveyor.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Here in New England Fish is a big thing, obviously. We use mostly Cod and Haddock for Fish and Chips. Some Chefs like to try to get away with Pollock but I'm not one of them. All the terminology can be looked up. The Filet is the boneless side of flesh running the entire length of the fish from the tail to the Gills. If you cut that filet in half the front thicker part world be the loin or Captains cut and the tail piece is obviously the tail piece. The loin is usual used for the Baked cod or Haddock, specials and such and the tail is usually used for frying as it's thinner and will cook through faster. 

Now, what r u going to coat the fish with for frying. A dry batter like seasoned clam fry of fritter mix or a wetter coating like a traditional english beer batter fry? Final word to the wise. Use fresh fish not frozen and keep it washed and iced down always!


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

So is a FLT. cut a fillet cut?  then what is a sq. cut?

I am looking to use Atlantic IQF cod loin, which i will thaw and make the batter for.

I am in North Central Canada, so the availability of fresh fish is few and far between.

What is the difference between frozen fish and fresh fish (yes, stupid question i know).

Second, question, how can i put a mediterranean twist on it?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> So is a FLT. cut a fillet cut? then what is a sq. cut?
> 
> I am looking to use Atlantic IQF cod loin, which i will thaw and make the batter for.
> 
> ...


The FLT and sq. are probably something that has to do with code-ing from your vender. The biggest thing you need to watch out for when it comes to frozen fish is that it sogs out big time when you fry it. it also has tendency to get rubbery. The difference between fresh and frozen will be obvious to you when you look and feel them side by side. Also the difference between the 2 is about 4 dollars a pound...lol

As far as a Mediterranean twist to fried cod?.....you could add some Tuscan, Baharat or Advieh herbs or sweet wine to the batter, possibly serve it with some sort of Med herb tarter sauce or yogurt sauce on the side....play around with different things. Create a signature dish unique to you..if all fails...google it!


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Where about in north central Canada??


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> The FLT and sq. are probably something that has to do with code-ing from your vender. The biggest thing you need to watch out for when it comes to frozen fish is that it sogs out big time when you fry it. it also has tendency to get rubbery. The difference between fresh and frozen will be obvious to you when you look and feel them side by side. Also the difference between the 2 is about 4 dollars a pound...lol
> 
> As far as a Mediterranean twist to fried cod?.....you could add some Tuscan, Baharat or Advieh herbs or sweet wine to the batter, possibly serve it with some sort of Med herb tarter sauce or yogurt sauce on the side....play around with different things. Create a signature dish unique to you..if all fails...google it!


is their a workaround to ensure it doesn't get rubbery? and when you say sogs out, you mean a lot of water is released during the frying? and again, can that be helped or am i SOL?


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> . Also the difference between the 2 is about 4 dollars a pound...lol


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> is their a workaround to ensure it doesn't get rubbery? and when you say sogs out, you mean a lot of water is released during the frying? and again, can that be helped or am i SOL?


All my experience with IQF is that if you overcook it it gets Rubbery undercook it...it soaks right through your batter. To me it's Cafeteria food. Mabe try a fish native to your area your local fish monger might have at a reasonable price. Arctic Char, Grayling, maybe some Pacific Cod out of Alaska or even Walleye!. It fries up nice. Why the Mediterranean twist?


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Fablesable said:


> Where about in north central Canada??


Northern Ontario


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

I agree, don't use frozen fish unless you have to. Surely there must be someone who delivers fresh fish?

I would try and stay away from cod, also. It is a delicious fish, but horribly, horribly, horribly overfished and there are alternatives out there you should use, IMO. Haddock is good, and there is a fish called cusk out there that would probably work well, though I haven't used it for fish and chips before. Pollack is OK but probably not the best. But I think fresh pollack would be better than frozen cod or frozen haddock. There is also buzz about a fish called "dogfish" which is actually a shark, but it is supposed to be great for fish and chips. My purveyor sells it but I've never used it. 

Mediterranean twist, lets see. You could sub your fries for panisse, which is basically chickpea flour cooked like polenta, spread onto a sheet pan to cool, then cut into shapes (or fries for you) and then fried. They are delicious, and can be flavored any sort of way you choose. 

You could make a z'atar spice blend to spread on your fries. Some sort of romanesco-ish style tartare sauce might work. Beet/carrot/yogurt slaw, instead of cabbage. You could experiment with chickpea flour in the batter, you could offer tabbouleh instead of cole slaw. Paprika/espelette pepper for a seasoning on the fries (maybe play on patatas bravas).


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Dogfish is terrible......like chewing on shoe leather. As far as cod Goes...it's making a huge comeback as far as the fisheries go. There have been strict fishing restrictions over the last 10 years and we're actually starting the catch them off the shoreline in the winter again. Pacific cod...all 30 species of them have become more popular on the west coast...But like I said...try some of you local fish especially walleye out of the great lakes....


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

"I disagree with your opinion of frozen fish, though. For those not near coastlines, FAS fish actually is higher quality than so-called fresh---which is often four or five days old before your fishmonger even sees it. FAS fish is caught, cleaned, packaged, and flash frozen within two hours.

More often than not, when there's a loss of quality with FAS fish it's because it was defrosted improperly."

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/59777/nam...y-used-in-real-english-fish-chips#post_304833

So who is right and who is wrong? or is it six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I will talk to some people, but i can almost guarantee everything is frozen or horribly past its expiry date if it is fresh


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

I guess I don't understand your point, because 4-5 day old fish isn't fresh fish. If your choice is between 4-5 day old fish and FAS fish, then I agree that FAS would be a better choice.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

If you go with IQF then talk to your vendors about 'dry pack' stuff that's not pumped with solution.  I dunno what your distributors carry but Harbor Banks packs most of their fish & shellfish with no added solution.  The difference between their stuff and the crap that's "pumped" is night and day.  If you slack them both out side on by side on two sheet pans the Harbor Banks pan will have just a little bit of water in the bottom but the pumped stuff will swimming in a puddle.  High quality frozen thawed as needed beats "fresh" fish that is nearly a week old by the time you get it.  Cod is kind of the 'gold standard' for fish and chips but Hake is really good too, and a bit cheaper.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

The novice said:


> So is a FLT. cut a fillet cut? then what is a sq. cut?
> 
> I am looking to use Atlantic IQF cod loin, which i will thaw and make the batter for.
> 
> ...


FLT.....Fillet SQ........Square cut

I buy IQF Alaskan Cod for Baja Fish Tacos that are basically trim pieces. They are 2-3 oz portions, very good quality and the price is reasonable, around $3.50lb.

Not what I would buy if I was running a chip shop, but ok for a special from time to time or tacos.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

chefbuba said:


> FLT.....Fillet SQ........Square cut


WTH would someone need or want a square cut? Fillet i get, loin i get, but....you know what...../img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Basically, their is no correct procedure to thaw out frozen fish so it isn't shit?


Phaedrus said:


> If you go with IQF then talk to your vendors about 'dry pack' stuff that's not pumped with solution. I dunno what your distributors carry but Harbor Banks packs most of their fish & shellfish with no added solution. The difference between their stuff and the crap that's "pumped" is night and day. If you slack them both out side on by side on two sheet pans the Harbor Banks pan will have just a little bit of water in the bottom but the pumped stuff will swimming in a puddle. High quality frozen thawed as needed beats "fresh" fish that is nearly a week old by the time you get it. Cod is kind of the 'gold standard' for fish and chips but Hake is really good too, and a bit cheaper.


I looked at my vendor spreadsheet, nothing with Harbor Banks.......

So either its frozen and pumped with god knows what, or its fresh and expensive as ****, or its not fresh but i still pay up the *** because they call it fresh.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Are there people that sell fresh lake fish nearby? If you are in Northern Canada there must be hundreds of lakes.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Someday said:


> Are there people that sell fresh lake fish nearby? If you are in Northern Canada there must be hundreds of lakes.


the lakes around here carry usually bass, pickerel, all the wrong types of fish


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> "I disagree with your opinion of frozen fish, though. For those not near coastlines, FAS fish actually is higher quality than so-called fresh---which is often four or five days old before your fishmonger even sees it. FAS fish is caught, cleaned, packaged, and flash frozen within two hours.
> 
> More often than not, when there's a loss of quality with FAS fish it's because it was defrosted improperly."
> 
> ...


I'm thinking FAS is the modern day IQF.......The captains of the boats i've been on pack the catch on so much ice..it's just as good as being frozen....nevertheless..you'e still gonna pay out the ass for it. you're a victim of your location and need...lol


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

DId i mention i really appreciate your help guys


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> I'm thinking FAS is the modern day IQF.......The captains of the boats i've been on pack the catch on so much ice..it's just as good as being frozen....nevertheless..you'e still gonna pay out the ass for it. you're a victim of your location and need...lol


You know you say things like that and they are funny yet so very very sad /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crying.gif


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> You know you say things like that and they are funny yet so very very sad /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crying.gif


I'm a consultant..I shoot from the hip at times...saying all the things a client wants to here, doesn't solve problems it creates them and an air of mistrust...lol...You can ask one question in this forum and get 20 different answers and all of them very good. Could get confusing. We have talked back and forth and the evaluation that I made is REALITY....I suggested local fish like Arctic Char, Grayling and Walleye. I were to bet if you researched Walleye Filet, you might get it at a decent price because it's coming out of the great lakes. It's a white sweet fish that fries up nice. I've had it many times when I was up your way. When all is said and done, you'll figure it all out and it'll work out just fine. I have faith in you!


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> I'm a consultant..I shoot from the hip at times...saying all the things a client wants to here, doesn't solve problems it creates them and an air of mistrust...lol...You can ask one question in this forum and get 20 different answers and all of them very good. Could get confusing. We have talked back and forth and the evaluation that I made is REALITY....I suggested local fish like Arctic Char, Grayling and Walleye. I were to bet if you researched Walleye Filet, you might get it at a decent price because it's coming out of the great lakes. It's a white sweet fish that fries up nice. I've had it many times when I was up your way. When all is said and done, you'll figure it all out and it'll work out just fine. I have faith in you!


ty


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

WHAT???!!! There are hundreds of lakes and bays that have tons of different types of fish where you are from that you can get fresh from Purveyors. Have you got a hold of Agri-canada as they have the names and addresses of sone of the fish purveyors. There are a ton of rainbow trout/steelhead farms in northern ontario as well. You also have perch, pike, walleye, bass, lake whitefish, catfish, and chinook, coho, atlantic and pink salmon........and your saying you cannot find one fish purveyor?? Something smells fishy or someone has not done their homework and outreach in the community methinks. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Fablesable said:


> WHAT???!!! There are hundreds of lakes and bays that have tons of different types of fish where you are from that you can get fresh from Purveyors. Have you got a hold of Agri-canada as they have the names and addresses of sone of the fish purveyors. There are a ton of rainbow trout/steelhead farms in northern ontario as well. You also have perch, pike, walleye, bass, lake whitefish, catfish, and chinook, coho, atlantic and pink salmon........and your saying you cannot find one fish purveyor?? Something smells fishy or someone has not done their homework and outreach in the community methinks. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


a little bit of the former with a whole lot of the latter


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

just out of curiousity, is batter fish specific?  Like what might work for cod, might not work for Haddock etc.?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Well when you do there are tons of different types of wonderful fish for you to play with and really get to know out your way. You are in a VERY rich spot for fish so don't waste too much time on those frozen peeps that couldn't tell you about the lake the fish came from let alone the species they are selling you. Get out there and explore your area.......you will be a better chef from the experience of it. I hope you do decide to explore your region /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> just out of curiousity, is batter fish specific? Like what might work for cod, might not work for Haddock etc.?


ya..oily fish like Salmon. tuna.....Bluefish are better in a dry dredge... fish like cod haddock the whitefish...you can do either way. Here in New England, like I mentioned before, we use Cod and Haddock tails for frying fish for fish and chips. The New England version is with a seasoned clam fry mix, making it lighter than a batter mix that we would use for an old style English fish and chips. With the batters, you can play around with the liquids you put into them. Lager beer, wine, I put Jack Daniels into my batter as well....you could try Yukon Jack...just play around with them and see what tastes best to you....you mentioned Mediterranean...like I said, play around with different spices in a dry dredge, you might like the lighter crust better and you don't have to hold the fish in the fryer for a sec like you usually do with batters.....


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

The novice said:


> is their a workaround to ensure it doesn't get rubbery? and when you say sogs out, you mean a lot of water is released during the frying? and again, can that be helped or am i SOL?


I live in Minnesota, the home of the Friday night fish fry. We all use frozen cod. I personally have no problem using frozen cod as that's all that's available around here. I have also used pollock with good results. It depends on the quality of the pollack. I worked at a place that was wildly popular for it's fish fry. When I first started there, they used cod. Then it went on the endangered list, and the owner switched to pollock. This was in the early 80s. We always called both whitefish, so no one questioned or even noticed the change. To this day I see some of the kids that used to work there and they talk about that good "cod" even though I have told them repeatedly that we never used cod when they worked there. I try to buy once frozen cod, but it's almost impossible to get now because virtually all cod is processed in China, so it's frozen at least twice before you ever get it. Ask for samples from your suppliers. When they come, thaw the fillets. Then run run your fingers over the piece of fish. Now rub your thumb across your fingers. You will feel grit. The grittier the feeling, the more times the fish has been frozen and the mushier it will be. Keep your fish in a perforated pan so it can drain and not sit in it's own juice. You want to keep it as dry as possible without letting it dry out. 3oz pieces are to me the best size for the fryer. Bigger pieces take too long to cook. I don't know why you want to put a Mediterranean spin on a classic, but to each their own. You could think about doing that by having a kabob with zucchini, eggplant and mushrooms. Have everything on a skewer, dip the whole show in the batter and drop in the fryer. It could be an option instead of fries. I have used Fry Crisp batter mix for years with very good results. It's easy to use, equal parts mix and liquid, so you don't have to fool around with a recipe when you're busy. If you want to put your own stamp on it, you can do that by the type of beer you use if you're making beer batter. We used all kinds because we would buy discounted out dated beer from our liquor supplier. I am glad you bought electric fryers. They recover and maintain heat better than gas, so you can do higher volume faster than you can with a gas fryer. You can try pollock and see what you think. I actually prefer it to cod myself because of the poor quality of cod that is produced today. They used to process it right on the boats, but now they freeze it and ship it to China where they process it and freeze it again. I was forever switching companies because I would find a brand that was good, and then the quality would go down. I bought Trident brand pollock and it worked well for batter fried fish. I might suggest you make a good cole slaw to go with your fish. People like that combination a lot. Good luck!


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

It's good to be in New England and get the cod off the boat. It's sacrilegious to use frozen fish in a restaurant here...lol but you gotta do what you gotta do when you're in the middle of no mans land...lol


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Justa Chef said:


> It's good to be in New England and get the cod off the boat. It's sacrilegious to use frozen fish in a restaurant here...lol but you gotta do what you gotta do when you're in the middle of no mans land...lol


Fresh off the boat is sometimes a misnomer.

The price of fuel coupled with the amt needed to 1. get to the fishing grounds and 2. the amt needed to troll however many different spots required to fill the hull ( anywhere from a few days up to a week) equals the need to bury the catch under a mountain of crushed ice which will freeze the flesh as efficiently as your home freezer.

I do a bit of fishing myself and agree there is a huge difference between fresh and frozen but unless I want to throw a party every time we land a limit ( there are usually 3 of us 3-5 times a week for 2 months every summer) we keep the catch ice cold until we get back in and then clean, portion and vac and pac for the freezer.

My point is... wouldn't you rather have a product you know has been flash frozen than one you think was caught that day but has been buried in ice for a week?

I am not suggesting you yourself are buying a lesser quality product nor are you being duped by your fave captain from your fave boat... more of a point of discussion.

mimi


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

flipflopgirl said:


> Fresh off the boat is sometimes a misnomer.
> 
> The price of fuel coupled with the amt needed to 1. get to the fishing grounds and 2. the amt needed to troll however many different spots required to fill the hull ( anywhere from a few days up to a week) equals the need to bury the catch under a mountain of crushed ice which will freeze the flesh as efficiently as your home freezer.
> 
> ...


I really like and appreciate input like this, talking about real experiences fishing and how its done.


greyeaglem said:


> I am glad you bought electric fryers. They recover and maintain heat better than gas, so you can do higher volume faster than you can with a gas fryer.


I thought it was the opposite, where, electric was inferior to gas

https://www.globeequipment.com/electric-countertop-fryer-16-lb.html x 2


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

flipflopgirl said:


> Fresh off the boat is sometimes a misnomer.
> 
> The price of fuel coupled with the amt needed to 1. get to the fishing grounds and 2. the amt needed to troll however many different spots required to fill the hull ( anywhere from a few days up to a week) equals the need to bury the catch under a mountain of crushed ice which will freeze the flesh as efficiently as your home freezer.
> 
> ...


I can't disagree with you on any points. Unfortuatly us old-timers have been conditioned over the years that "Fresh Fish" off the boat has never been frozen. Over the last few years new "Norms" have been set. "Fresh Fish" is really 5 days old therefore Flash Frozen fish is considered better, yet still frozen. Honestly, it seems it's one or one half dozen of the other Between FAS and Fresh especially here in NE where they are only out for 2 or 3 days at a time now and the catch is at market within 4 days...


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

I use these guys...there are awesome. They do really great things with stock management and only partner with sustainable fishermen. The pack and overnight all fish so it is delivered the next day. http://www.sea2table.com/

I don't think they deliver to Canada, unfortunately, but there might be something similar in that country. You should look into it. And again, please don't use Atlantic Cod. There are good alternatives out there and cod has been decimated.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Someday said:


> I use these guys...there are awesome. They do really great things with stock management and only partner with sustainable fishermen. The pack and overnight all fish so it is delivered the next day. http://www.sea2table.com/
> 
> I don't think they deliver to Canada, unfortunately, but there might be something similar in that country. You should look into it. And again, please don't use Atlantic Cod. There are good alternatives out there and cod has been decimated.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/study-...ong-comeback-after-years-of-decline-1.2629904

Still no?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Minnesota folks love their Walleye, too.  I can't imagine it would be hard to get Walleye in Canada!


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> I really like and appreciate input like this, talking about real experiences fishing and how its done.
> 
> I thought it was the opposite, where, electric was inferior to gas
> 
> https://www.globeequipment.com/electric-countertop-fryer-16-lb.html x 2


Personally, I think the recovery time with gas is a bit quicker than electric....State codes also might dictate what you use. If I use any gas unit, anything with an open flame it had to be under a hood and have an Ansul supply situated above it. whereas if I use electric for anything..oven, fryer, stove.... it does not have too be under a hood nor do you need anything but a BC fire extinguisher. So Technically speaking, I could design an all electric kitchen and just put exhaust fans in the walls to cool the kitchen instead of an entire hood and ansul system to the roof.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

The novice said:


> http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/study-...ong-comeback-after-years-of-decline-1.2629904
> 
> Still no?


No, lol. I'll quote the article.

"Despite signals that the cod stock is rebounding from years of overfishing, mismanagement and ecological changes, Rose says it will likely be another decade before any kind of commercial fishery could resume.

Federal Fisheries researchers say a minimum spawning biomass of about 650,000 tonnes is what is needed to sustain any extensive commercial fishery."

Also, this only references the "Northern," or Canadian stocks. My understanding is that the US Stocks are still quite bad.

I mean, you can decide for yourself. I just think using an obscenely overfished fish is in bad taste. Ocean health is paramount to not only our well being as chefs but our well being as a species. The Atlantic, in general, has been horribly decimated by overfishing. If you are inclined you should do some research on it. I'm not trying to get preachy but it is just something I'm passionate about.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The novice said:


> http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/study-...ong-comeback-after-years-of-decline-1.2629904
> 
> Still no?


I really appreciate the Sea to Table program from Sysco. Shipping is free if you purchase a minimum amount from each port.

The product comes packed in ice in styrofoam and ships in 24 hours right to my door.

Only downside I have with this program is the product listings come out on Monday but if the fishermen don't catch before the deadline to ship, you're SOL.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Someday said:


> No, lol. I'll quote the article.
> 
> "Despite signals that the cod stock is rebounding from years of overfishing, mismanagement and ecological changes, Rose says it will likely be another decade before any kind of commercial fishery could resume.
> 
> ...


We aren't really hearing anything about not using Cod caught off our coast here in New England. All the reports I read is that the stocks are on the rise since the very strict regulations implemented in 2006. We have lost over 60% of our fishing fleets as fisherman both in Gloucester and New Bedford chose to be bought out by the Federal Govt and pick new professions. Cod has made such a comeback that we are now actually catching them off the shoreline come winter time. Our biggest problem is Canadian fisherman who enter US Waters and don't obey our regulations, The Coast Guard has beefed up patrols of this form of illegal poaching and they are now keeping north or out boarders. as far as using a product in bad taste...there is more controversy about using Veal than using cod and then is the od group of idiots who protest restaurants for cruel and abusive ways restaurants kill lobsters.......Sigh


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

FAS - frozen at sea?  IQF - individually quick frozen.  The frozen vs fresh debate has been around since C. Birdseye.  With today's technology a high quality IQF fish, properly thawed and cooked is as good or better than fresh that is days old.  In many markets it is also less expensive.  Depending on the operation it is also very consistent.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Did a bit of a google search on the overfishing of cod (to the point of near extinction in the early 1990's).

While there was a complete Canadian moratorium on fishing commercially the American fisheries stayed open (Bering Sea for example) with a strict limit on what could be harvested.

Both the N Pacific as well as the N Atlantic populations have rebounded nicely.

That said even tho cod is the traditional species used in fish and chips there is absolutely no reason that we need to fall back into that bad habit.

Lots of different fish were mentioned as great substitutes and IMO that is what we (the royal we of course lol ;-) should choose to do to prevent this near extinction event happening to another species.

So how about a bit of mixing and matching of your local fish and run blackboard specials using cod?

mimi

Have never had Walleye but have heard good things about the great taste and texture.

m.


Someday said:


> Pacific cod is a different animal, though the pacific fishing is in a much better state generally then the atlantic.
> 
> I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about overfishing. God knows I've got a lot to say about it.
> 
> And I'm not buying the "cod is back in business" stuff. Just no.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Justa Chef said:


> We aren't really hearing anything about not using Cod caught off our coast here in New England. All the reports I read is that the stocks are on the rise since the very strict regulations implemented in 2006. We have lost over 60% of our fishing fleets as fisherman both in Gloucester and New Bedford chose to be bought out by the Federal Govt and pick new professions. Cod has made such a comeback that we are now actually catching them off the shoreline come winter time. Our biggest problem is Canadian fisherman who enter US Waters and don't obey our regulations, The Coast Guard has beefed up patrols of this form of illegal poaching and they are now keeping north or out boarders. as far as using a product in bad taste...there is more controversy about using Veal than using cod and then is the od group of idiots who protest restaurants for cruel and abusive ways restaurants kill lobsters.......Sigh


Well, maybe YOU aren't hearing anything. I'm still hearing Cod, and the Atlantic fishery in general, is in dire straits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/30/s...e-traced-to-warming-gulf-of-maine-waters.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/where-have-all-the-cod-gone.html

Anyways, I don't want to hijack the thread any more than we have, but those are two recent articles from verified sources. A quick google search.

I feel I've answered the OP's question to the best of my ability. 


Chefross said:


> I really appreciate the Sea to Table program from Sysco. Shipping is free if you purchase a minimum amount from each port.
> 
> The product comes packed in ice in styrofoam and ships in 24 hours right to my door.
> 
> Only downside I have with this program is the product listings come out on Monday but if the fishermen don't catch before the deadline to ship, you're SOL.


I don't know what program that is, but the one I referenced earlier certainly doesn't partner with Sysco. I'm not sure if you meant that, but the names appear similar and I just wanted to clarify.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The Pacific Northwest is all about Cod and Halibut. If I were to open a Fish and Chip place I would use a large flake fish with a light tempura batter. This will give you a crisp outside leaving nice size chunk of tender white fish on the inside. I can't believe how many fish and chip places screw this up. Whatever fish you use make sure it is served hot and crispy right from the fryer. Make sure your tartar sauce is second to none. Serve fresh cut, fresh fried French fries right from the fryer.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I cannot cite the articles I read (I didn't keep track) but the cod population in the Northern Banks fishery (Atlantic fishing grounds) is back in business.

The same article also noted that it is not just man depleting the stocks.

Sea otters? seals? are huge fans of this fish as well.

It was noted that the population of this preditor has risen along with the cod population.

mimi

I am sorry @Someday but I just don't buy this "warming" theory.

How did they determine that it was that and not just pirates and poachers as well as animal preditors?

Are they finding huge numbers of cod washing up on shore asking to be placed in an air conditioned salt water tank?

Fish, like every other creature (and plants as well) will learn to adapt to changing conditions.

m.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Pacific cod is a different animal, though the pacific fishing is in a much better state generally then the atlantic. 

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about overfishing. God knows I've got a lot to say about it. 

And I'm not buying the "cod is back in business" stuff. Just no.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Quess it's a regional thing...Massachusetts i the biggest liberal weenie state in the USA and if they aren't raising red flags and protesting it...it must be ok..lol...Put it like this...the less you purchase leaves more for us to purchase. If the federal Govt is allowing it...I'm buying' it......But meanwhile...it's not going to make it to Northern Onterio unless you want to pay big money for it......Walleye is the way to go...it's a white fish and it's actually inexpensive....have you ever thought of going out and fishing it for yourself....can't get any fresher than that  and theres a higher profit margin...lol


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Someday said:


> Pacific cod is a different animal, though the pacific fishing is in a much better state generally then the atlantic.
> 
> I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about overfishing. God knows I've got a lot to say about it.
> 
> And I'm not buying the "cod is back in business" stuff. Just no.


Fair enuf ... back in business with strict limits as to how many pounds each boat can take during the season.

Don't want to get into my cod can beat up your cod but if they were so different why have they both been overfished?

I don't think you could tell the difference in a blind taste test.....

mimi


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Hah, I meant "different animal" in its idiom form, like "driving at night is a different animal." I didn't even think of the implications. And I agree, you'd have to really know what you are looking for to tell the difference.

And don't tell me "its a regional thing" because I live in New England too. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Someday said:


> Hah, I meant "different animal" in its idiom form, like "driving at night is a different animal." I didn't even think of the implications. And I agree, you'd have to really know what you are looking for to tell the difference.
> 
> And don't tell me "its a regional thing" because I live in New England too. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


whatever........you do your thing, I'll do my thing and it's my impression that it's ok to use Cod...


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> FAS - frozen at sea? IQF - individually quick frozen. The frozen vs fresh debate has been around since C. Birdseye. With today's technology a high quality IQF fish,* properly thawed* and cooked is as good or better than fresh that is days old. In many markets it is also less expensive. Depending on the operation it is also very consistent.


ANd what is the best methodology for thawing, how is the process of properly thawing out fish gone about?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> ANd what is the best methodology for thawing, how is the process of properly thawing out fish gone about?


overnight, in the fridge in a perforated pan...covered


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> overnight, in the fridge in a perforated pan...covered


should the pan be made of any particular material and covered with plastic wrap (stupid questions but i am learning)


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

a standard 2" perforated hotel pan inserted into a 4" standard hotel pan so the liquid drips down..plastic wrap is fine. Lot's of common sense things..ya know? A lot of your questions can be answered on google, youtube etc.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

Justa Chef said:


> overnight, in the fridge in a perforated pan...covered


Justa Chef,

Don't forget to properly label the product and where to store it in the refrigerator below ready to eat foods.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> Justa Chef,
> 
> Don't forget to properly label the product and where to store it in the refrigerator below ready to eat foods.


I'm thinking the question was more about "Thawing" procedures rather than proper Storage procedures. However, you are correct in the storage procedures. TY


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> I'm thinking the question was more about "Thawing" procedures rather than proper Storage procedures. However, you are correct in the storage procedures. TY


Actually, the question was more about thawing and making sure to get the shit they pumped into it OUT before i flour and batter it


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

probable want to put another hotel pan with a weight of some sort on top of it like when you squeeze tofu. I honestly never thought of taking the water out of it because The product I always got was dry, just the fish IQF'ed...lol


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

The trouble with that is there is a season on walleye. They fish it from the middle of May until the middle of June, so the four or five week season is the only time you can get it fresh. After that it's all frozen because the season is done. If you are in an area where people like walleye (my area) and you tell them they can only have it in May and June because you won't buy frozen, they will lynch you. I ran a restaurant that was around 70-80 seats, open 5-6 hrs. per day and I used to go through at least 60# of walleye per week. I used to have people come in and tell me they had grown up on one coast or the other and that our seafood was as fresh tasting as any they had ever had. Everything I had came in frozen. However, I bought the best quality I could get. I remember watching an episode of Hell's Kitchen where they were catering a wedding. The team doing the appetizer was using salmon. The store had Coho salmon frozen, but they insisted on fresh and bought a lesser grade. The guests were not happy. They were saying "Well, it was fresh. It was a no-brainer." At that point I was thinking they'd buy a dog turd over the Coho just because it was fresh. And the people would be served dog turd. People in the mid west are used to eating frozen fish. They like cod too, and that's the only way they can get it. They buy it frozen in the grocery store.Walleye can be bony, which some people don't like, and it can have a "fishy" taste that cod doesn't have. Quite frankly, it's all they've ever had, they're used to it and they really don't care. I wouldn't stress too much over it. If you can find dry pack without what they call STP (aids in the IQF process) that would be your best quality upgrade that you can feasibly do. If you get too high hat over it, your prices will go way up and you won't sell it.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Talking to my chef friend, and he was telling me its stupid to fry really good fish.  the taste is is in the batter, the fish only contributes texture, is that true?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

it's a 50/50 thing..yes the taste of the batter is important just as much as the taste of the fish is important. if you fry up a piece of rancid fish, it won't make a difference how good the batter is...lol


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

So i will be using a IQF Pollock

so from reading F&C posts on here, here are the things i learned.

1.  Make sure the fish is completely thawed

2.  You wan't a thin coating of flour THEN throw it in your batter

3.  Important ingredients in your batter include oil (makes the crust rich and tight) and corn starch (retards oil being absorbed) and sugar&paprika&turmeric (colour), baking powder to blow up and make it seem bigger, garlic for taste

4.  keep the batter cold

5.  Make sure that your batter is more thinner as opposed to thicker, ice cubes are a good idea

6.  375*C oil
7.  Swim the battered fish (10 sec)

Not sure about eggs and malt vinegar?


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

The novice said:


> So i will be using a IQF Pollock
> 
> so from reading F&C posts on here, here are the things i learned.
> 
> ...


if you weren't in the middle of nowhere, i'd be frowning on the Pollock choice. It's a bit of a darker fish a bit on the light grey side. But it is what it is. Tell me how the batter works out, interesting combo. I've really never used garlic in a fish batter, nor sugar. I've always depended on the frying process for "Color" never the spices you're considering. What kind of liquid are you going to be using? Water, beer, milk? Ever thought of using that as a dry mix and not in a batter?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

The baking soda is not there to make the product appear larger.

At least I would hope that is not the case.

Rather to lighten what could end up being an otherwise heavy crust.

mimi


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Justa Chef said:


> if you weren't in the middle of nowhere, i'd be frowning on the Pollock choice. It's a bit of a darker fish a bit on the light grey side. But it is what it is.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif I know......


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

The novice said:


> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif I know......


Pollack should be OK. Its not the BEST choice, but given your options it will have to do. Pollack tends to have much smaller flakes and the texture can be mushier. I'd be worried the texture might get worse if you have to use frozen. The best thing you can do is to nail down your batter and technique so that, despite your "fresh fish" limitations, they are mitigated by perfectly crisp and seasoned fish.

Haddock would work better, if you can get that (bigger flakes, a bit firmer). I would also explore lake fish in your area (there must be some) even if you can only use if for a short while. I don't know if anyone has brought up Hake yet? You might look into that too...might be a middle ground between pollack and haddock.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

The novice said:


> Justa Chef said:
> 
> 
> > if you weren't in the middle of nowhere, i'd be frowning on the Pollock choice. It's a bit of a darker fish a bit on the light grey side. But it is what it is.
> ...


When you are undertaking a simple dish with only a few components everything you use must be spot on and that includes visual appeal.

This is just IMO but if I took a bite and saw gray flesh this would put me off no matter how good the batter is.

How about @Someday 's suggestion of Haddock?

I see it in the frozen breaded fish freezer alongside the Cod and (shudder) Tilapia.

If it is good enuf for "The Gorton's Fisherman" ;-) I assume the cost is reasonable.

You only get one chance for a first impression...

mimi


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

again..if you can afford it go for it. The main problem is the fact that it cost an arm and a leg to get it to northern Canada. My suggestion would be to get some samples from your bender and play with them. See which would be the best fit for you. Pollock is a darker fish than cod and haddock and of course less expensive. We can go back and forth all day, it will wind up being a personal preference in the long run. You'll have to match up all the different options available to you while not breaking the bank....


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@The novice Listen, from one Canadian who has lived and worked in northern ontario to another, you are going about this the wrong way and will lose you shirt if you focus on the pennies for dollars that cheap pollock might bring in but will kill your business.

Here is why, in TRUE northern ontario, the vast MAJORITY of the population like to fish therefore they KNOW their types of fish. You use pollock, they will NEVER return.

If you are "northern ontario" (like north of the major cities ontario) then you should be using the local fish as there are a TON to chose from. If you use pollock here, they will know and be less than impressed and NOT come back. Either way, get off the pollock train okay.

Being lazy and not doing your homework will kick ya in the nuts in the end. Going on an online forum is a start however, you are talking with a lot of people that have NO CLUE as to what ontario and its people truly are like and what they prefer palate-wise. This is in no way saying they (as professionals in their field) do not know what they are talking about, they just don't know the local scene and peoples of the area that you are wanting to serve and THAT my friend is up to you to get off the computer, go out to eat at a few of your successful competitors and find out what makes them successful, fish and all.

So you want to be a successful restaurant manager?? Then get off your a$$ and start canvassing your local neighbourhood to see what is selling and what isn't. Also, if you are in a mall, you will want a good product that isn't too expensive but tastes and looks great as you will be limited to the numbers of people walking by your place. If you do it right and people love your product then you will get more walk in traffic coming to your restaurant specifically. I cannot stress how important it is to really look around you and do your homework when going into business for yourself. Success can be a two way street in this industry, yo can make enough money to pay all you bills and for some people that is enough, or you can make enough money to pay all your bills and make a profit......your choice. Please rethink the pollock decision /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Fablesable said:


> @The novice Listen, from one Canadian who has lived and worked in northern ontario to another, you are going about this the wrong way and will lose you shirt if you focus on the pennies for dollars that cheap pollock might bring in but will kill your business.
> 
> Here is why, in TRUE northern ontario, the vast MAJORITY of the population like to fish therefore they KNOW their types of fish. You use pollock, they will NEVER return.
> 
> ...


Well said! If the fish is going to be your bread and butter then it will do you justice to use a better cut. I know in most cases Cod is the preferred choice. You would not believe how many restaurants screw up fish and chips. The main thing is to have a crisp outside batter dipped large flake chunk with a tender flaky inside. I would also make sure the fish and fries are served right out of the fryer. A great tartar sauce is a must and s/b made in house.......


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Fablesable said:


> @The novice Listen, from one Canadian who has lived and worked in northern ontario to another, you are going about this the wrong way and will lose you shirt if you focus on the pennies for dollars that cheap pollock might bring in but will kill your business.
> 
> Here is why, in TRUE northern ontario, the vast MAJORITY of the population like to fish therefore they KNOW their types of fish. You use pollock, they will NEVER return.
> 
> ...


What if i lie and say it is another type of fish?
What is one step up from pollock?


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

ChefBillyB said:


> Well said! If the fish is going to be your bread and butter then it will do you justice to use a better cut. I know in most cases Cod is the preferred choice. You would not believe how many restaurants screw up fish and chips. The main thing is to have a crisp outside batter dipped large flake chunk with a tender flaky inside. I would also make sure the fish and fries are served right out of the fryer. A great tartar sauce is a must and s/b made in house.......


But fish isn't my bread and butter, no one else in the mall does it so I am just using it to pump up my menu


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The novice said:


> But fish isn't my bread and butter, no one else in the mall does it so I am just using it to pump up my menu


If it isn't a big volume menu item then it's not going to be a fresh fish approach like a Fish and Chip house. I would still stick with Cod it would make everyone happy. I would also put a fish sandwich on the menu...What are some of the other items on your menu ?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

The novice said:


> What if i lie and say it is another type of fish?
> 
> What is one step up from pollock?


You really don't want to do that. It is appalling that you even thought it out loud.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

A) Never lie to you customers as it will backfire on you every time!

B) Did you read my post where it states that people in northern ontario KNOW their fish hence why the no lying part and get a better fish like cod, halibut, pike, etc.

C) If fish is not your bread and butter then STAY AWAY from it if you cannot be quality oriented with it. If you wish to pump up your menu there are a million and one different ways to do so and if you post your menu we can help you with that......probably even cheaper ways without having to handle fish and all the food safe issues that go with.

D) You should always just stick with what you know and are comfortable with if you are not a chef and do not know anything about the product you wish to bring in. Stay with what you know and do it EXTREMELY WELL!! This way you don't have a need to "pump" up your menu as your menu and the quality of your food going out will speak for itself drawing more customers to your door.

Just a few things to keep in mind. Having a food establishment is not just about feeding people food. It is about feeding people quality food that you are proud of, getting repeat customers, good reviews, and making a profit as in the end....this is a business. Smart business decisions equals smarter returns on your dollar. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> You really don't want to do that. It is appalling that you even thought it out loud.


I would argue most restaurants lie about what is in their food.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Perhaps. But when caught in a lie there can be consequences. Ask the seafood restaurant in San Diego that lied to me about their "halibut" last summer to find out what kind of grief bad press will bring. I heartily praise good food/service... And even mediocre food/service... But lies and fraud can incite great wrath. I know I'm not alone.

And think about what it says about the liars. Who wants to live like that?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

You understand what liability insurance is about right?? If you lie about what is in the food or what type of food you are serving and a person has it that has allergies or sensitivities that you didn't know about as they didn't tell you because they thought that what you say you are serving them is actually what you are serving them.....and they get sick or worse??? WHOA NELLY are you up shyte creek without a paddle!! If you have insurance and they find out you have lied about what you are serving.....guess whose bottom is not covered anymore.....yup, thats right: YOURS. 

A whole lotta crap for a simple solution of just serve what you know and stay away from what you don't.......dontchya think??


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

So I would argue that the majority of restaurants do not lie and the ones that do......they are either out of business now, getting sued and will be outta business or haven't got caught YET and will be outta business soon!


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> Perhaps. But when caught in a lie there can be consequences. Ask the seafood restaurant in San Diego that lied to me about their "halibut" last summer to find out what kind of grief bad press will bring. I heartily praise good food/service... And even mediocre food/service... But lies and fraud can incite great wrath. I know I'm not alone.
> 
> And think about what it says about the liars. Who wants to live like that?


On a more philosophical note, i would argue we are at the height of cultural mediocrity and expediency.


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Fablesable said:


> So I would argue that the majority of restaurants do not lie and the ones that do......they are either out of business now, getting sued and will be outta business or haven't got caught YET and will be outta business soon!


didn't mean to derail my own thread (lol) or insult any of you, for which i apologize.

Last word: I would argue the majority of restaurants do lie. and those that do USUALLY are more successful (read: McDonalds, BK, subway) than those that take pride in what they do and the food they serve.

It isn't "right" but it is expedient


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Lol...yea it is an all is well that ends well sorta thing I guess /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Although sad to hear such pessimism from one so young, it is understandable. Anyhow, I hope you do figure out a good add to your menu and see your numbers flourish. I love to see people succeed at what they do!


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## the novice (Apr 12, 2016)

Fablesable said:


> Lol...yea it is an all is well that ends well sorta thing I guess /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
> 
> Although sad to hear such pessimism from one so young, it is understandable. Anyhow, I hope you do figure out a good add to your menu and see your numbers flourish. I love to see people succeed at what they do!


I know you have advised me against it, but i am quite interested in doing F&C. what would be one step up from pollock?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Okay I would say a step up and in the right direction would be haddock and is what traditional British F&C are made from. Then you go to cod or halibut. 

Haddock tastes better and still will make it cost effective to do your F&C without the cost of bringing in cod or halibut. However, make sure you try out some haddock from the fish purveyor so that you know what it tastes like. It is similar in taste to the cod and to know if it is fresh or not, the haddock should be firm and hold together when handled. If it is translucent in colour as well that is a good sign, if opaque in colour that means the fish is not fresh and old.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

You need to get out from behind the computer and do some real homework. Go talk to a fish monger, search out places doing fish & chips, do your own research. Fry up different fish, test your batter recipe, see what works best. 

IMO pollack has its place, in fish sticks. 
Come back here when you have spent some time and money testing.


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## justa chef (Apr 5, 2016)

Ever had the feeling you're going in circles...round and round  in a thread?...lol.lol


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

chefbuba said:


> You need to get out from behind the computer and do some real homework. Go talk to a fish monger, search out places doing fish & chips, do your own research. Fry up different fish, test your batter recipe, see what works best.
> 
> IMO pollack has its place, in fish sticks.
> Come back here when you have spent some time and money testing.


Bang on buba!

The product research is my favorite part of putting a menu together!

mimi


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

the novice said:


> I really like and appreciate input like this, talking about real experiences fishing and how its done.
> 
> I thought it was the opposite, where, electric was inferior to gas
> 
> https://www.globeequipment.com/electric-countertop-fryer-16-lb.html x 2


It has to do with efficiency. Gas fryers have I think around 73% efficiency as opposed to around 88% for electric. These are just raw numbers. A lot depends on the brand of fryer, etc. Electric fryers went out of favor because gas got to be so much cheaper. I cut my teeth on GE Mark IV electric fryers. They were the hot rods of deep fryers. The pans were deep and wide and held 35# of oil. My record is 34 3 oz. pieces of battered cod in one fryer at the same time without any sticking together. My equipment repairman laughed at me when I said electric was faster than gas, but I pointed out that I've worked a few hundred more fish frys than he had so I didn't care what he thought. Oddly enough, the person who explained how that actually could be was a man at a food show who was selling gas fryers. He said if he owned a restaurant he would definitely have electric fryers.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

phaedrus said:


> Minnesota folks love their Walleye, too. I can't imagine it would be hard to get Walleye in Canada!


We had a good laugh when the guy from Restaurant Impossible came to a restaurant in our area. He ripped them a new one for having frozen walleye. And you're right, people here dearly love their walleye. Apparently he is unaware that walleye has a fishing season of about 6 weeks every year. People here are not going to tolerate only being able to have walleye 6 weeks out of the year. The whole fresh and local mindset is really getting out of hand for being impractical. He also told the restaurant they could get fresh salmon cheaper than frozen. I was all ears as I was running a seafood restaurant at the time. He never did get back to that, so I guess he figured out where he was= in the midwest. I used all frozen seafood and had many compliments on how fresh it tasted. Many of the people making the compliments had grown up or lived on both coasts. You have to work with what you have and I have never apologized for it. Oh, and one day one of my salesmen came in laughing his butt off because he knew I was going to get a big kick out of the fact that the same guy throwing a fit about the frozen walleye was acting as a spokesman for Sysco promoting... you guessed it... Sysco frozen seafood. They had a contest where you could win $10,000 and a visit from the guy. My boss said if we won I could have the money because it would be worth it to watch me tear him a new one about reality in the restaurant business.


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