# What will an expensive knife give me, that a cheap one won't?



## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Hi all,

Currently I own a trio of cheap Japanese knives, specifically a Tojiro DP Gyuto, a Tojiro F-699 Nakiri and a Sakai Genkichi Funayuki.  From what I've read they're all made from first class steel (VG10, Shirogami #2 and Aogami #2 respectively) and even with my no doubt mediocre sharpening technique they get frighteningly sharp and perform extremely well - I think.  The thing is, I've never had the opportunity to try an expensive knife since the only Japanese knives to be found in local shops are the all-steel Globals (which I absolutely detest the look of) and no-one I know uses anything other than your run of the mill German-made chef knives.

While all my current knives are cheap (~$40) that's not because I'm adverse to spending more, but simply because I am adverse to spending "serious" money without knowing what it'll give me over and above what I already own.  The many articles I've read pretty much all stress that the steel quality is the most important and my cheapo blades already have that covered.

So what *more* do I get if I decide to spend, say, $150-250 on a knife?  Is it only a matter of fancy Damascus patterning, a hammered finish, exotic wood in the handles and bragging rights derived from the brand name and price (which I've no use for, since I know of no-one who might care), or are there tangible benefits to be had in terms of practicality and/or performance too?

Please enlighten me!

- Bel

PS - I'm very much an amateur home cook, so please bear that firmly in mind.


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## luis de vence (Jun 5, 2015)

I also own a Tojiro knife. A tojiro shirogami wa-gyuto. Its made from shirogami #2 as well.

It seems to me that it comes from more work done to the blade and expensive ingredients used on the handle like rare wood and precious metals. The craftmanship.

I saw one japanese blade go for over a thousand dollars on chefknivestogo. It was the most beautiful blade i've ever seen. It was clean and shiny and the handle was a whimsical mix of woods and metals of varying colors.

Although, the tojiro knife I bought came with a kuruochi and a kasumi finish on the blade and it still only cost 50 dollars online.





  








konosuke-f-white-1-kurouchi-santoku-no-handle-100.




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luis de vence


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Jun 14, 2016











  








konosuke-honyaki-wa-gyuto-240mm-40.png




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luis de vence


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Jun 14, 2016








Both images are from the CKTG catalog.

So what you might get for 1000 dollars is a really good looking blade and a comfortable and well crafted handle.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks Louis. The thing is, fancy isn't really my thing, whether we're talking knives or most other things. I generally reside very much in the "less is more" camp, although I'll admit to wanting something other than black micarta or Ho wood for handles. However, to me a kitchen knife is a working tool and I'd prefer it to look like one. The first picture in particular is entirely too "pimped up" and blingy for me, while the second one is a very nice knife. In contrast this is my most recent knife (photo taken from eBay), which I really love the look of:





  








s-l1600.jpg




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belfaborac


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Jun 14, 2016








So the question remains: is "better" looks and a better fit & finish all I can expect, or is there anything else to be had that I'm unaware of?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The grind


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Too cryptic by far my good man, I'll need you to elaborate.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

In terms of tangible performance, that is hotly debated. Some quest for the epitome of technical quality characteristics. Does it make a practical difference: it depends on who you ask. 

In addition to the incentives you already mentioned, add ego. Not necessarily in the negative implication of the word, but the quest to stand out as unique and an expert in the finer things in life and the finer details of knowledge. Some like to take knives beyond he practical and thats okay... For them.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks a lot Brian.  What I take from that, I think, is that for me there's likely very little or maybe even nothing to be gained from spending much more on kitchen knives.  After all I am not on any other quest than making sure I'm not missing out on some aspect of performance of which I'm not aware and I have no ego where these knives are concerned, other than wanting knives which appeal to my personal sense of aesthetics.

However, if you, MillionsKnives or someone else could elaborate on "the grind" I'd be grateful.  Are we talking about the angle(s) at which the edge is ground, or the profile of the entire blade?

In terms of the former, I'm not sure it would matter much to me beyond the initial period prior to the first sharpening.  I always use a sharpening guide (the kind of clip you put on the back of the knife in order to provide a consistent angle), so regardless of the angle of the edge when purchased, the knife will very soon end up with whatever angle the guide provides.  While I'm sure a true master could make it significantly sharper, even my amateurish efforts make short work of my hardest opponents, the odd overripe tomato.

If "the grind" refers to something else then once again I'd be very grateful for some elaboration.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Benuser said:


> To give an idea of what a more elaborate grind can be: more convex at the base, flatter towards the tip. Great in combination with a strong distal taper. Or S-like geometries: very thin behind the edge and still allowing a good food separation. And above all: consistency, no excessive high and low spots, absence of overgrinds.


Thanks Benuser, much appreciated. I should have refreshed the page before submitting the previous post....

I'm slightly unclear on whether what you're describing concerns the edge or the blade itself though? Or both? Mainly the blade it sounds like, but in that case how would I know if I can't see the blade in person? I can't recall having seen these things detailed on shop pages, nor, for that sake , ever having read anything on the benefits/drawbacks of various geometries. Would you have any links I can plough through?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I mean how thick or thin it is at the edge and above the edge and overall. This has a large impact on cutting performance and food release, and maintainability


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks, the penny dropped while I was writing, hence the edit...


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The Sakai Genkichi Funayuki you have looks to rather on the thick side. You would have a very noticeable performance increase from some of the thinner or at least thinner behind the edge gyutos in the $150-250 range (goes back to the grind, aspects of the knife you're kind of stuck with unless you want to do a lottt of work to your knife, and even still after that).
Tojiro DP isn't particularly thin behind the edge either (mine I would rate as not thick but not thin). I did a light thinning and got noticeably easier cutting performance of pounds and pounds of baked chicken breast. But it's still not much like knives that are ground better and prioritize thinness behind the edge.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Your knives are just fine. If they're sharp ... they are fine and sharp.  A $6000 dull knife is of no value other than looking nice.  If it's sharp ... it's a $6000 nice looking sharp knife.  Any knife you use, as long as it's sharp, is gonna do the same job putting out the same food.  Skills trump $$$.  There is nothing wrong with your knives ... as long as they're sharp.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

In response to the original question,  a lighter wallet, that's all.

Like Iceman says, skills trump everything else


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## berndy (Sep 18, 2010)

I was going to say  " a bigger hole in your wallet "


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

An expensive knife might not give you anything a cheap one won't. But there are some that can give you more, and also require more from you in sharpening and proper usage. Lots of variables, the user being the biggest.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks a lot folks, I really appreciate the input!

I think the conclusion, for me, is that I can safely stop considering buying more expensive knives.  Like I stated in the original post I'm very much just an amateur home cook and no doubt at best mediocre at sharpening.  I relatively rarely cook for anyone but myself and never process large amounts of produce, so the benefit of particular grinds and other "advanced" aspects would be slim to none and completely wasted on me.  Instead I'll continue to do as I have done, first making sure that both steel and brand/maker is decent and then letting the size, aesthetic appeal and practical need be the clinchers.  The best possible outcome really.

Thanks again folks!

- Bel


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

With a 400 grit stone you can easily do a lot to improve an inexpensive knife's grind. It's fun stuff, doesn't cost much, and really makes the knife your own. I did extensive work on cheap hand-me-downs before I ever actually spent money on a knife, and I actually had difficulty retiring them when I did, and continue to use a couple of them . One remains as my 6" utility/petty, the other I grab whenever I have a soft loaf of bread to slice.



Rick


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## pirendeus (Apr 1, 2016)

The heat treatment of the steal will also vary drastically between chrap to expensive knives, which will affect many characteristics, too.


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## leonking (Jun 17, 2016)

I never put a whole lot of money into my private set of knives, never more than 50 bucks for one knife. It all comes down to personal preference, but I don't think expensive knives necessarily are better than their cheaper counterparts


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

As @phatch said - the more expensive the knife the more upkeep it demands and also the more limitations it might have in terms of tolerance of abuse. The difference say between a a Ford F-250 Super Duty and a Ferrari. Also $150 - $200 is not expensive for a good J-knife, but a really good knife can run you two, three times that and a great knife well now you're talking real money. You'd be surprised at how many high end knives I see for sale listed as hardly used, or drawer queen, or eye candy.


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## pirendeus (Apr 1, 2016)

leonking said:


> I never put a whole lot of money into my private set of knives, never more than 50 bucks for one knife. It all comes down to personal preference, but I don't think expensive knives necessarily are better than their cheaper counterparts


If you don't think that longer edge retention, smaller acute angles, ease of sharpening, thinner blades, and better fit and finish make a more expensive knife "better," then I guess you're right. Some cheap knives are acceptable, but that doesn't equate to being on par with their pricier counterparts. You may place higher value on your money than knife performance, but that doesn't alter the fact that better knives are better.


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## luis de vence (Jun 5, 2015)

To get back on this thread.

I have to admit the handle on the 50 dollar tojiro wa-gyuto is horrible. It's incredible rough and the octagonal shape is too sharp. If it were easier to get japanese knives down here, I would totally buy a better knife.

Or send my knife to one of those instagram knife makers that do custom handles for knives. That would be a great option too.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Sandpaper works


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

It's that way for a reason - you still get a good grip with your hands are damp.  It's a fairly soft wood just smooth it out a little, ease the edges, apply a little oil to it and you're good to go.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Perfect simple cheap answers.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Pirendeus said:


> If you don't think that longer edge retention, smaller acute angles, ease of sharpening, thinner blades, and better fit and finish make a more expensive knife "better," then I guess you're right. Some cheap knives are acceptable, but that doesn't equate to being on par with their pricier counterparts. You may place higher value on your money than knife performance, but that doesn't alter the fact that better knives are better.


Ummmm. two schools of thought on this. I'm in the "other" school, the inexpensive knife school.

See, for the last, oh, 35 years I use knives to help me pay the rent. I'm stuck on "Victorinox" knives, and use them almost exclusively. Inexpensive, but not cheap. They are easily honed with a steel, multiple times a day, bevel angles can be altered easily on water stones but are generally around 20-22. The knives get used--heavily, chicken bones, a sack or two of onions for Fr. onion soup, hard chocolate, tough fibrous root vegetables, they get dropped, banged around, I lend them out for the sole purpose of getting work done, they get a visit to the stones, and the whole process starts all over again.

Fit, finish and good looks are really not part of the equation for a working knife. That they fit the hand and not blister or chafe, yes. That I spend a minimum of fuss getting them sharp, yes. Edge retention doesn't mean diddly-squat if I need half an hour on diamond stones once a week, if the alternative is 5 minutes on water stones twice a week. Thinner blades and more acute angles mean more chipping, and That means more work getting those chips out, which also means more time on the stones, a shrinking knife, and a shrinking water stone.

The knife is pretty much like a gun. Just a useless hunk of steel by itself. As an employer, I will choose the employee with the cheap knife who can get a sack of onions peeled faster than the guy who has the expensive one and gets all "tingly in the bathing suit area" about the knife, its pedigree, and it's maintainence.es


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

foodpump said:


> The knife is pretty much like a gun. Just a useless hunk of steel by itself.


Um. No. Sorry. A knife is not like a gun. But you knew I was gonna say something. So did Mimi. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Carry on with the knife discussion. . .


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Well I guess you're both wrong. Both knives and guns are tools. They do their jobs only when they're picked up and used. Sometimes they're used better than other times. As long as they're properly prepared, as in _sharp_ for knives, they do those jobs just as well as any other type or brand of that tool.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Size matters. Switching from an 8.5 to 10" Tojiro did help me; I get theough the bag of onions that much quicker. 

Lent it to a new cook and she has 7 stitches though


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## chefshanes (Jun 19, 2016)

lucky it was a knife and not a gun that you loaned out chefboy, otherwise she could have shot her own hand off in the excitement


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## pirendeus (Apr 1, 2016)

foodpump said:


> I'm stuck on "Victorinox" knives, and use them almost exclusively. Inexpensive, but not cheap. They are easily honed with a steel, multiple times a day, bevel angles can be altered easily on water stones but are generally around 20-22. The knives get used--heavily, chicken bones, a sack or two of onions for Fr. onion soup, hard chocolate, tough fibrous root vegetables, they get dropped, banged around, I lend them out for the sole purpose of getting work done, they get a visit to the stones, and the whole process starts all over again.
> 
> Fit, finish and good looks are really not part of the equation for a working knife. That they fit the hand and not blister or chafe, yes. That I spend a minimum of fuss getting them sharp, yes. Edge retention doesn't mean diddly-squat if I need half an hour on diamond stones once a week, if the alternative is 5 minutes on water stones twice a week. Thinner blades and more acute angles mean more chipping, and That means more work getting those chips out, which also means more time on the stones, a shrinking knife, and a shrinking water stone.
> As an employer, I will choose the employee with the cheap knife who can get a sack of onions peeled faster than the guy who has the expensive one and gets all "tingly in the bathing suit area" about the knife, its pedigree, and it's maintainence.es


So what i hear you saying is


 Your employees dont know how to maintain their tools and dont take pride in them
 Your environment isnt conducive to certain aspects of some better knives
 You dont necessarily need/want better knives

And thats all fine. But, at the end of the day, that doesnt change the fact that better knives are better. They can be made softer, they can be made with ss cladding, they can be made thicker, etc.
I dont know your experience with good knives...but you seem to think the choice is between an F350 or a 911 turbo. However, perhaps the real choice is between an el camino and a Cayenne? I know that it is an imperfect analogy, but also realize that better knives arent monolithic. Benefits include more options in knife design to get a knife that more fully matches the task. All I'm suggesting is that you consider and explore all the choices.
Also, remember that the OP said hes an at-home cook, so most of your limiatations may not fit perfectly in this situation.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Pirendeus said:


> Benefits include more options in knife design to get a knife that more fully matches the task. .


I can filet a whole salmon, brunoise ripe tomatoes, slice bread, chiffonade a 50# bag of onions, etc with any sharp 12" chef knife given to me, no matter what the price tag of the knife, with equal aplomb.


Pirendeus said:


> Yall _did_ see the OP mention that hes an at-home cook and he specifically wants responses to match that scenario, right? Not everyone wants to just get by with a beater knife.


Is my answer more specifically to the scenario?


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## pirendeus (Apr 1, 2016)

cheflayne said:


> I can filet a whole salmon, brunoise ripe tomatoes, slice bread, chiffonade a 50# bag of onions, etc with any sharp 12" chef knife given to me, no matter what the price tag of the knife, with equal aplomb.
> 
> Is my answer more specifically to the scenario?


You seem to be accustomed to using your trusty knife for everything, and you've developed skills that might overcome flaws with lesser knives. Does the OP share your abilities? Or could those tasks be performed even better with a better knife? I don't know your skill, and I can only surmise about the OP's---all I know is what I've seen of better, more expensive knives.



IceMan said:


> Well then you _DO_ realize and understand that _Victorinox Forschner_ knives are not at all, as you put it, _"beater"_ knives.
> 
> Oh ... I'm sorry ... you're just an ordinary _"Cook At Home"_ who really doesn't understand those intricacies.


Wow, dude, chill a bit. What do you consider to be a "beater?" I mean a cheap knife that can be abused, and if it breaks can be disposed of with no loss. How does that not apply to a Forschner? Or would I not understand, since i'm just an ordinary _"Cook At Home"_ who really doesn't understand those intricacies? Wait a sec, let me change my profile title to Professional Chef so I can sit at the cool kids' table, too. I forgot that post count and and a job title choice from a drop down box on an online forum mean that I can't understand knives, steels, and usage. Maybe I should change my profile name to Thomas Flippin' Keller and then you'd have a civil discourse with me?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Edit for snarkyness (is that a word?)

mimi


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

I've have been known to employ the K.I.S.S method, but only when appropriate.

Nothing like the gross oversimplification of reality to make it easier to process. It's like comparing eighth grade math to calculus or the algorithms used for modern day life. It's a false equivalency. Subtlety and nuance is difficult and complex. Not all tools are the same. Dumbing things down makes them easier to understand. And then there is ideology.

See my pm, mimi. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

jake t buds said:


> I've have been known to employ the K.I.S.S method, but only when appropriate.
> 
> Nothing like the gross oversimplification of reality to make it easier to process. It's like comparing eight grade math to calculus or the algorithms used for modern day life. It's a false equivalency. Subtlety and nuance is difficult and complex. Dumbing things down makes them easier to understand. And then there is ideology.
> 
> See my pm, mimi.


I did.
:level: :beer:

m.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

@Pirendeus I've been known to go to bat for vickies, too. There's NOTHING wrong with those knives - unless you don't like the handle. But I would never spend more than $100 on a knife I was going to take to work anyhow. It's too much risk. I've seen/heard too many horror stories. The OP seems of a like mind - if you have a good knife, know how to use it, know how to maintain it, you don't "need" a *better knife.

Know, I don't "need" a better guitar, either, but I'd sure love to have one...


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

> Also, remember that the OP said hes an at-home cook, so most of your limiatations may not fit perfectly in this situation.


I think it's safe to say that this discussion has moved well beyond the boundaries my original post. Don't mind me though, I'm happy to hang back and watch the fun. 
That's pretty much where I'm at, I guess. My current knives do their jobs well, possibly because they're never called on to do anything very advanced, and given the comparatively simple tasks they're put to I have my doubts that there's much more to be gained in my particular case.


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

Grande said:


> @Pirendeus I've been known to go to bat for vickies, too. There's NOTHING wrong with those knives - unless you don't like the handle. But I would never spend more than $100 on a knife I was going to take to work anyhow. It's too much risk. I've seen/heard too many horror stories. The OP seems of a like mind - if you have a good knife, know how to use it, know how to maintain it, you don't "need" a *better knife.
> 
> Know, I don't "need" a better guitar, either, but I'd sure love to have one...


I used to play a sh*tty guitar on purpose. It makes your technique better. It forces you to get the most out of what you have. Besides, it's a motivator. "I don't deserve a better guitar. When my technique improves and am a better player, then the guitar gods will bestow a better one upon me." /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I used an Ikea knife for a while. This home cook also brought his crappy sharp knives to the restaurant during a stage.

@Belfaborac This forum has its fair share of bladeheads. Discussions over knives can get a bit. . . testy.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

No need to apologise on my account, I've picked up some good info and now I'm just enjoying the show.


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## chefshanes (Jun 19, 2016)

@ Pirendeus

I think the point that others are trying to make to you is that one should choose the knife that suits based on a number of factors:

* the size and shape of the chefs hand matching to handle comfort

* the physique of the chef wanting a heavier or lighter feeling knife

* handling skills, techniques, intended purposes requiring specific blade shape, size, edge curvature, bevel

* intended environment such as for showmanship may choose Damascus, or maintain the blackened finish to prove handforged

* aaaand... just because anyone who loves working with fire and sharp objects is definitely a little crazy, no?

I think most chefs would tend to follow that a particular knife being expensive does not make it the best knife for everyone, or anyone for that matter.

lets take my knives for example, I still use the same chefs knife for 30 years, I'm so used to it I can actually use it with my eyes closed and have proven in demonstration.... theres a special bond I have with that knife, its my baby. and while I'm sooo keen to "adopt" a Japanese hand forged knife I wont love my original chef knife any less, but reaching middle age I'm just looking for something exciting on the side, to keep the passion so to speak.

so in finishing, its not about the price-tag on the knife, but what is your budget, ability, and intended use, and personal comfort and feel, and buy the best knife you can that falls within those constraints.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Only a Gibson is good enough.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Pirendeus said:


> Yall _did_ see the OP mention that hes an at-home cook and he specifically wants responses to match that scenario, right? Not everyone wants to just get by with a beater knife.


Exactly.

The $600 J-knife with the acute angle and all that is a "best" or "better" knife for the guy who buys $500 worth of Tuna, and converts it to a couple of grand worth of Sushi and Sashimi on a daily basis. The initial cost, high maintainence, and severe limitations of the knife are really nothing when you consider that that knife is being used day in and day out to pay the rent.

Same knife for an at-home cook? Honestly, it will sit in its presentation box most of the time. It won't be the knife he grabs to cut a sandwich in half, won't be the knife he uses to cut vegetables, and to slice up one lonely chicken breast means un-boxing the thing, then cleaning and sanitizing after the one cut, not really worth the effort.

A knife is a tool, and the "Best" tools are the ones that are useful. Nothing to do with cost, pedigree, fit and finish, or the background of the maker. Hats off to any home cook who can use a $600 knife for all the daily mundane tasks a regular 10" Chefs knife is used for.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Pirendeus said:


> You seem to be accustomed to using your trusty knife for everything, and you've developed skills that might overcome flaws with lesser knives. Does the OP share your abilities? Or could those tasks be performed even better with a better knife?


I didn't say with my "trusty knife", what I said was


> with any sharp 12" chef knife given to me.


The point I was trying to get across was that for the vast majority of kitchen work, it doesn't matter so much about the pedigree of the knife being used. Today at work one of my tasks was thinly slicing a 10# case of crimini mushrooms. It took me 20 minutes to accomplish. For the first 10 minutes I used my personal knife. For the second 10 minutes I used one of the house knives. My knife probably costs 5 times as much as the house knives. Cutting to the chase, the price of the knife didn't matter, the job was done equally well by both knives used.

Bottom line is for the most part, knife work is about the user and not the tool.

I have an Epiphone Les Paul guitar. A decent guitar, not a world beater by any means, but decent. I can say with absolute confidence that Ry Cooder could play world beater versions of bottleneck blues, country, vintage jazz, Hawaiian slack-key guitar, Bahamian folk music and countless other styles on my guitar without even batting an eye.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Epiphone is made to Gibson specs. Good enough.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

MillionsKnives said:


> The grind





Benuser said:


> The grind is how a blade evolves from spine to edge (from a few mm to perhaps 0.2mm above the edge) and from choil to tip.





Benuser said:


> I didn't speak about the edge, but a good edge should be in conformity with the grind.





Rick Alan said:


> With a 400 grit stone you can easily do a lot to improve an inexpensive knife's grind. It's fun stuff, doesn't cost much, and really makes the knife your own. I did extensive work on cheap hand-me-downs before I ever actually spent money on a knife, and I actually had difficulty retiring them when I did, and continue to use a couple of them . One remains as my 6" utility/petty, the other I grab whenever I have a soft loaf of bread to slice.
> 
> Rick





Benuser said:


> A good sharpening starting behind the edge will improve any blade. Most knives, cheap and more expensive, come with a poor edge.





Rick Alan said:


> Sandpaper works





Mike9 said:


> It's that way for a reason - you still get a good grip with your hands are damp. It's a fairly soft wood just smooth it out a little, ease the edges, apply a little oil to it and you're good to go.


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

The whole, "an inexpensive knife is all you need" is oversimplified, IMO.  A more expensive knife will be "better" in a number of ways, some objective, some subjective.  But it's ultimately users who decide if the increased performance is worth the additional price.

Yep, I've got knives that are way more expensive than ones that are adequate to do the job.  But I find them to be worth the extra cost.  Not everyone will think so, nor do I think they should.  If you're sure a more expensive knife is not worth it, don't buy one.  If you're not sure, you might need to buy one (new or used) and make your own decision.  If you don't like it, you can probably sell it for a relatively small loss, and then you'll have a decision based on your own experience, rather than someone telling you what something is worth to you.  Or you might decide you want to try one from a different maker, or at a somewhat higher or lower price.  

In the end, it's a personal decision as to what any particular knife is worth.  We won't all agree, and that's fine.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Then comes up the question of knife skills. Well the average home cook does not have the means of acquiring these as a simple matter of course, not enough daily usage, no suitable mentors on hand to copy. But the means exist non the less.

For mentors to copy you have easy access to superstars like Rick Theory:






Of course the $600 Tanaka helps some here, but you could do as well with much less.

Some comparatively mundane stuff






But the real secret of great performers, from every walk of life, is their use of mental imagery, which anyone can also learn. Just google "Mental Imagery in sports." In a nutshell, "Whatever the mind's eye can clearly see, the body can do."

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

There's truth on both ends of the extremes. The reason these conversations get so heated is that there is no definition of "good enough" that we can all agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

Whatever works...


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## pirendeus (Apr 1, 2016)

BrianShaw said:


> There's truth on both ends of the extremes. The reason these conversations get so heated is that there is no definition of "good enough" that we can all agree.
> Whatever works...


Oh, i can agree that a victorinox is usually "good enough" for any given cutting task, and knife skills help, too. I thought that we were discussing the characteristics that it lacks when compared to more expensive knives, wherein a value decision must be made.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

toddnmd said:


> The whole, "an inexpensive knife is all you need" is oversimplified, IMO. A more expensive knife will be "better" in a number of ways, some objective, some subjective.


Well, go ahead, list the ways.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Pirendeus said:


> Oh, i can agree that a victorinox is usually "good enough" for any given cutting task, and knife skills help, too. I thought that we were discussing the characteristics that it lacks when compared to more expensive knives, wherein a value decision must be made.


Well, not exactly. Maybe that's what some folks are discussing but the OP asked a different question - basically what MORE will I get from a more expensive or technologically advanced knife.... so I can make a value judgment on whether it is worth it TO ME. There's a subtle but important distinction between the two questions. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Pirendeus said:


> Speaking of books, maybe its time you actually read about metalurgy and formation of different types of steel so you can form a cogent .....


From my understanding of metallurgy, everything is a trade off: Edge retention vs. ease of sharpening, Hardness vs. brittleness. True, some of the powdered metals don't force you to make such trade offs, but you haven't discussed those. So what is "best"? And how much maintainence, sharpening equipment does it need, and what are it's limitations?

History is important too. The earliest record of Europeans were forging steel to wrought iron blades goes back to the 1530's, as evidenced by the discovery of the "Mary Rose" in the late '80's (King Henry 8th's flagship), but probably goes much further back than that.


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## belfaborac (Jun 14, 2016)

I believe the earliest record of European steel forging is actually from the Roman era. Both archaeological evidence and Pliny the Elder (in his _Naturalis Historia) _tells us that the Romans did in fact industrialise mining, smelting and forging (as well as countless other things) to a level and sophistication which weren't seen again until the late middle ages after their technology were lost after the fall of the empire.

Sorry, history is kinda my thing....


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## 2chefdup (Jun 23, 2016)

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2chefdup


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Jun 23, 2016








Good book to read about knives

I personally enjoy my shun for veggies, my Mac as my chef and go to knife, I use a wusthof for bread knife and a paring, but dislike my chef knife it's to heavy and feels more like a cleaver. Also most European blades are heavier so figure what you enjoy and by appropriately. 
I also have a victorinox for boning, slicing, paring, chef, and santoku. They get used often but do get worn down quicker even though my Mac has a more acute angle.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Made some edits, deletions, locked the thread. The content is available, and the worst of the snark is deleted.


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