# cleaver believer



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

While I am rehandling my gyutos and vintage carbon chefs knives ( a slow process for lack of free time), I've been using a $10, no name, carbon steel chinese cleaver just about exclusively for two weeks.

I'd say I can accomplish 99% of kitchen tasks with a cleaver and itinomonn wa butcher. I might even be 20%+ more efficient with the cleaver. So why do I have thousands of dollars in knives...

Anyway I think I'm becoming a cleaver person. I have a CCK 1303 coming tomorrow and a thai brand, Aranyik, also on the way.

I'll post reviews when they get here

Here's a pic of the thai one...





  








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May 20, 2015


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

So the CCK arrived. It's as thin as they say. Spine and choil are rounded out of the box. Great for veg but unfortunately the lightweight makes it useless for mincing meat with double cleaver technique.





  








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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I would never have guessed the CCK was so nicely thinned.  If I did a lot of rough-cutting of veggies I'd probably think a cleaver neat also.

So when's the for-sale list going up?

Rick


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I have used Chinese cleavers for years. Not only do they cut  great but hey can be used to make pallards from chicken breast and  also used for pounding veal cutlets .It can also be used as a spatula in a pinch. Just make sure you get one of the proper weight


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Basically I like this CCK 1303 as a "laser" more than my Konosuke 210mm white steel gyuto that I paid 3x more for.

Seems to be less reactive too.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I have a cheapo Forschner cleaver I really enjoy. Also very thin, but not that thin. Has a pointy corner I need to file down a bit.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Rick Alan said:


> If I did a lot of rough-cutting of veggies I'd probably think a cleaver neat also.


It's for so much more than rough cutting:






In fact for precision cuts that need to be repeated, it's a lot easier. Try doing this stuff with a chefs knife. It's the same reason that for totally uniform soba noodles, they use a menkiri.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Wow. Fascinating. I didn't want it to end!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I have done those <1mm horizontal cuts in large onions with a [relatively speaking] dull suji, but not with consistent uniformity of thickness like that. But even speaking apples to apples as far as edge goes, I can see how having a cleaver you can grab mid-spine and push straight through with would be an advantage in some applications requiring finesse. But for fine slicing the like of celery and shallot I prefer a suji over anything taller.

Rick


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

BrianShaw said:


> Wow. Fascinating. I didn't want it to end!


Me either - MK what model CCK did you get?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

KF1303. I got it for $50 new, which is a good deal these days; CKTG has it at $70. Im going to get the 1301 (longer) and give this one to my mom.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Today I met a fellow cleaver enthusiast. My friend knows the sous chef here.





  








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Im on the left..


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Very cool. I never would have guessed that was you. Ha

I spent an afternoon with Martin Yan a few years ago. Another cleaver master.


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## zossolifer (Apr 19, 2015)

I've been rocking one for a couple weeks now. Great on veggies and pretty much everything I'm required to do at my work. Awesome to see there are people who actually prefer a cleaver


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

BrianShaw said:


> Very cool. I never would have guessed that was you. Ha


Nor I, always thought Millions was an old white guy like myself after having mentioned a while ago about having to cut back on BBQ per the doctor's orders. Or am I getting you mixed up with someone else? Old white guys do that.

Rick


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## knifeforhire (Jun 16, 2015)

I have that same Thai cleaver I bought back in March off a guy peddling knives out of the back of his pickup bed in a little village south of Chiang Mai, Thailand. It has become my favorite slicer/dicer blade for Thai cooking. I tend to match my cleaver to the country the dish is from so I have several dozen knives I've picked up in China and if I'm doing Sichuan its going to be a different chopper in my hand.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It's a big thick heavy meat cleaver. So far it has excelled at mincing meat.


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## knifeforhire (Jun 16, 2015)

Mine is fairly thin but I know they make that pattern in all sorts of blade thicknesses. I brought back a couple of smaller ones with thick spines I've been using on chicken bones when making broth.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I use a 4 pound hammer in breaking up bones for stock, and it's the only accessible way I have of reducing cow bones.

I used to use a heavy cheap chefs sharpened to 60deg inclusive, but it made a mess of the poly board so I then got the brilliant idea of putting the hammer to use.  Added benefit is that the chicken bones don't go flying as much as with the knife.  For the cow bones I have a nice piece of granite ledging outside to beat on.

As with the knife I wear goggles, best to be safe when things are flying around.

Rick


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## knifeforhire (Jun 16, 2015)

poly boards and bone chopping certainly don't go well together. I have a 4-inch thick round Boos Asian style chopping block I use when I've have big jobs to do. Cattle bones are little out of my league but I spend most of my time on Thai, Chinese and Viet dishes.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Hacksaws are quite affordable and works pretty good for big bones.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The next level of cleaver education... See this book on garnishes. I just wrote a review on it

http://www.cheftalk.com/products/ch...atillos-wei-chuan-cookbook-seris/reviews/4388


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Years ago (I can't remember the forum and username), somebody talked about "the moral superiority" of cleavers. It's a funny saying but there's a hint of truth in it.

I own three Chinese cleavers which I abuse as no one here could even imagine. I mean, I cut branches, small trees and all kind of woods for barbecues, with almost no harm to the edges. Geometry is a no brainer, just a piece of almost rectangular steel that duplicates as a scraper. They are cheap, strong and reliable and one cleaver will last generations in a home cook environment. 

I have some respectable Japanese knives, but would never stop using cleavers on a daily basis.


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

So why are good cleavers so cheap?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

There are bad cheap cleavers too!  I think my CCKs are just entry level. What is cheap compared to gyutos, is expensive to someone used to stainless junk from block sets.

$70-100 for a cleaver with this level of performance is a deal to me.

IMO it's cheaper because

1- steel they use is cheap (don't expect white steel, blue steel, etc here.  these are just simple carbon steels)

2-fit and finish is just okay

3- handle is cheap but usable

4- I think cleavers are easy to make.  I don't think you have to worry so much about fancy convex grinds, the profile, etc.  Start with a rectangle, take up the ends a little bit, hammer it as thin as you want, and grind near the edge even thinner.  The end!

5- scaling up  - Just the pure # of cleavers they are producing is so much higher than any fancy Japanese artisan.  Scaling up anything lets you sell it cheaper.

On that note...  I got my KF1103 today, I'll post pictures later.  Gonna regift the smaller KF1303 and maybe get some more cleaver converts! 

Some day I'll get into more expensive ones.  A Sugimoto for my birthday would be nice


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

All of that and maybe more.  It also may also have something to do with the customer base - folks who buy Japanese knives are more likely to spend more money on them.


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## knifeforhire (Jun 16, 2015)

The potential market in China for cleavers is probably bigger than the rest of the world combined but many there still have a very low income. That means everything needs to be inexpensive by our western standards. Then there is the labor factor. More than once over there I've asked someone how they were going to possibly accomplish a project only to be told I didn't understand how much cheap labor there was available to do it. I might also add that I've had it pointed out to me (by Chinese in China) that the average Chinese consumer is something of a miser when buying things like this. "Why would anyone spend $400 on a Japanese cleaver when you can buy a Chinese made one for $3.00 in the market?"


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I paid $70 for my new KF1103, and I'd do it again. This thing is sweet!

I go so much faster with a cleaver because I'm not scared of cutting myself. I know exactly where the knife is all the time.





  








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Jul 27, 2015


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Care to take a pic showing the thickness?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@Atatax here you go

It's marginally thicker than the CCK 1303 pictured above, but still very thin. I already sold the 1303 cheap to a friend trying to win a cleaver convert or I'd take a side by side picture.

Here is the CCK 1103 next to a 210mm Konosuke. Up to the height of the konosuke, it is THINNER. I'd hold it up side by side, but I only have two hands that I need to focus this picture!





  








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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

So is grip much different with a chinese cleaver compared to a gyuto?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Yes or you'll get fatigued; it can get heavy in the normal pinch grip. The default grip is like this, a pinch grip with 2 fingers down the side. Much less fatigue and more control. You have to let the weight of the cleaver do the work!





  








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HOWEVER. If you're using the very tip for detail work, I go back to a normal pinch grip more but with my thumb a bit higher than normal. If you use the flat to smash garlic or ginger, the grip changes again. I don't really think about any of this, I'm just an intuitive cook. Never had any training on this, I watch, I do.

First few posts here are worth a read:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...course-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

You could do two fingers down the side not all the way flat. I think this is more classic chinese. Or you can do just index finger down the side. Just do whatever is comfortable, but the point is you need something closer to the edge for better control and to handle the weight.





  








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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

You try the 1103 on meat yet? Is it like a nakiri where it's inapropriate or is it comparably as competent as a gyuto?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I haven't but I used the smaller 1303 on meat no problem.  It's meant for veg and boneless protein.  In my cleaver garnishing book, they arrange a lot of platters of roast meat using the cleaver.  Slice all the meats nice and even, use the broad side of the cleaver to fan it out,  and then use it as a spatula to move the meat to a platter. 

You can use it for deboning chicken even if you have enough skills, but it's not the nimblest knife, I'd still stick to a nice narrow boning knife.


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

One more question  are you using the oob edge?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Can't comment on the OOTB edge. I got it used so the last owner sharpened it once already.  I just touched it up on a shapton pro 2k stone.


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Mine arrived today. Definately not the fit and finish im used to. Looks lik3 the handle is spot welded on two points. The junction between the wood and metal parts of the handle is sloppy and the blade leans towards the right at the tip.

The thinness of the blade is quite nice. The ootb edge is quite bade, sharpened it a little today after work, eager to test it out tomorrow.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

This type of handle has the tang run all the way through the handle then they just fold over the soft end. I was looking into rehandling which involves cutting the end off. The bolster I believe is just hammered , not welded.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Talking about handles, do not buy this kind of cleaver:





  








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ordo


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Not only because the metal handle is slippery, but also because the tang is small and cheap and may be someone in the house could hammer the spine to cut who knows what:





  








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ordo


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Causing this:





  








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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Reminds me of globals!


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Any tips for sharpening? Can't refer3nc3 the same spine distance from the stone as other knives because the extreme height would mean a far sharper angle.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Go to the Dollar Store and get a protractor and cheap superglue.  Cut a wedge(s) out of poster board to the angle(s) you want.  Harden it with the sg.  Now you will be able to see high the spine should be.

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Yeah I just eyeball it.  You're already aware that it is taller so the height has to change to keep the same angle, just adjust accordingly.


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Definately a f7n knife to use, a little awkward with taller items, probably just ne3d to get used to it more.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

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Hopefully I will be a cleaver believer soon. The plan is to make this first one my Yang version. I plan on being skilled enough to make my Yin version using SS.

I understand this one is ugly. I was leaving my friends shop and she offered me a blank from one of her large squares. She was heading for the door and going for the lights.

It's L6, so I jumped. I grabbed the plasma and just got after it.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Very clever.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

panini said:


> Hopefully I will be a cleaver believer soon. The plan is to make this first one my Yang version. I plan on being skilled enough to make my Yin version using SS.
> 
> I understand this one is ugly. I was leaving my friends shop and she offered me a blank from one of her large squares. She was heading for the door and going for the lights.
> 
> It's L6, so I jumped. I grabbed the plasma and just got after it.


L6 will provide bone-crunching toughness, not sure what other edge properties to suspect.

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=4ad9842a94674606a42e22985585d9e1

Rich


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Rick Alan said:


> L6 will provide bone-crunching toughness, not sure what other edge properties to suspect.
> 
> http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=4ad9842a94674606a42e22985585d9e1
> 
> Rich


I was kind of thinking just that. It hopefully will become my hog equalizer. It's really the only animal we do on a consistent basis. I'm going to keep as much weight as possible.

The hogs are crazy this year. They have destroyed soo much property out by our country property. I'm mean acres and acres. Put out some traps friday when we get there.

All will be full and crowded by morning.

They're getting so bad they are making there way into populated cities.

*CITY OF DALLAS **SPECIFICATIONS*

*for **Request for Proposals (RFP)**BLZ1324*

*FERAL HOG CONTROL & ABATEMENT PROGRAM*

I guess there is not enough money up on the hill to promote their consumption. I just don't understand. I've never heard a negative comment on the flavor.

Far more tastier than the bland pork available to most.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The network at work blocked me from a lot of sites, here's a couple more interesting links:






http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16551

Whose going to HT this for you, your friend who supplied it?

Rick


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

I made this with a used saw blade, because the slight angle works for me.

dcarh




  








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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting, you bent that yourself I take it.



Rick


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Interesting, you bent that yourself I take it.
> 
> Rick


I meant the angle of the handle, relative to the cutting edge.

Normal cleaver the angle is parallel. Mine has a slight angle.

dcarch


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Garden hose ferrule


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Aha, it's an illusion, second photo from the top looks like you bent it the length about an inch down from the spine.

Nice engraving and space utilization also.


Rick


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Aha, it's an illusion, second photo from the top looks like you bent it the length about an inch down from the spine.
> 
> Nice engraving and space utilization also.
> 
> Rick


Thanks!

One of the best tools I have in the kitchen is actually made from that little leftover bottom curved steel from the saw.

After hardening, I sharpened it into a wood worker's scraper. It does a wonderful job to keep my wood cutting board surface clean and level. Highly recommended.

dcarch


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2015)

I was thinking the CCK was a little rough and F&F wasn't that good for $100 knife. Seems overpriced in the american market, but everybody swears by them. What about a Japanese made Chinese cleaver for the same price or $20 bucks more, is it going to be better than the CCK KF 1103?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Better steel, better fit and finish maybe. Better grind and performance? Not likely at $120. Next step up is suien vc around $170; better steel but fatter than cck.

Prices are outdated now, but reviews are great

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/771029/


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Well, came across the first veggie job, cleaver felt inadequate for, seeding tomatoes.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Just proceed with a tomato 1/2 as you would  a clove of garlic.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Hmm I met this Kenji fellow from Serious Eats blog. I was already a fan and he recently commented on KKF about the Misen kickstarter.. I didn't know he would be at the restaurant when I made reservations.

He seems to know about my cleavers and hand chopped burger preferences. I always knew celebrity chefs followed me on social media!





  








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It's a great book. I wrote a review here:

http://www.cheftalk.com/products/the-food-lab-better-home-cooking-through-science/reviews/4403


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes things got a little intense on that KKF post.  What restaurant did you meet him at, is he local?

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

This was at Kirkland Tap and Trotter.   I walked in and on the menu was his book and his famous fried chicken as specials.  You had the option to buy the book and Kenji was making rounds and signing them. The best thing I ate was actually from the normal menu - mussels, squid ink orichete, turkish peppers and miso sauce

Kenji graduated from MIT. Before he became a full time food writer, he used to work at a few restaurants mostly in Cambridge.  He lives somewhere in CA now but is in town occasionally.


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