# Why So Few Women Are Great Chefs?



## ldts60 (Feb 9, 2005)

Fernand Point stated "only men have the technique,dicipline,and passion that makes cooking consistently an art".
Honest thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated . :chef:


----------



## chinds85 (Apr 15, 2005)

From what I know of the culinary career track, sweating in a hot kitchen in a male-dominated workplace would not sound appealing to most women. But I'm a guy, so what would I know about women?

I am guessing it has something to do with the work environment. That, and most women I'm pretty sure work in bakeries and not in kitchens. The environments are very different.


----------



## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Anyone who grew up in a large family, on the farm or otherwise, will tell you how great their mother or grandmother was at getting breakfast/lunch/dinner on the table for six hungry boys. Forget technique.


----------



## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

This business is still very male dominated, but women are making inroads into this field. There are many great women out there, and not just in pastry land, though those women need to be given their due also. Women such as Susan Goin, Susan Spicer, Traci des Jardins, Gale Gand, Claudia Fleming, come to mind right away, without even given it any thought. Sure this business is not for every female, just like it's not for every male. It's a hot, stressful environment, often very testosteron driven, at times. I have worked with many women, in the kitchen and I have no problems working beside women as long as they can handle (I feel the same way about men also). I treat all the women in my kitchens the same as the men in my kitchen. I don't work them any harder then the men, but I also won't work them any less hard either. Anyone, male or female, that can handle my kitchens and can cook is welcome, and anyone, male or female, that can't hack it can just keep on walking. All I care about is their skills as a cook. I don't care if they are male, female, black, hispanic, white. ****, they can be from Mars for all I care, as long as they can cook and have the right attitude.


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Let's not forget Sandra Lee  Okay foul...I know  as much as I admire Fernand Points' talent and cuisine, that is a typically French, masculine attitude certainly more so back in the 40's, 50's and 60's and is slowly drifting away. In other words I totally disagree. Let's not forget if it wasn't for the women cooking at home, none of them would exist. We all had to have a first food role model and who else would it be, but the women. So to me women have equal footing in the kitchen as in most anyplace else.


----------



## ozarkrose (Apr 4, 2005)

Speaking from experience ...
The dedication required to be the top in any field precludes "other" life, and for a women that means, (if we're honest and accept that it is a biological fact for most women), family. In other realms, high positions are AT LEAST well paid so a person could afford to hire the "village" it takes to raise kids. I think cuisine is too much of an "art", or a "love", to pay all that well so a choice must be made.
Although many women would choose not to put themselves in a daily work situation that pushes physical stamina to the limits, I firmly believe that anyone who believes a women is at less that par for the mental strain is from Mars! I mean come on ... the meanest, down-dirtiest, cut to the quick people I know are women!
(P.S: I just took 10 years off to raise a son and am looking for an apprenticeship outside of my area to get back in the swing of things, HA!)


----------



## frizbee (Sep 27, 2003)

I am a Woman of course, and I have had serious blockages in the kitchen. I commented to a female manager I had once (who was also formally a Chef) about how irritated I got on the line at a new job...
The assumption seems to be shock/joy if a woman comes on line and holds her own (outside of pantry). There is also the assumption that women need more help.
The same assumption applies to men but on a reciprocal level...meaning, the crew is shocked if a man come onto the line and cannot hack it. It is expected that a man can do almost anything.
A woman is a stand out of she pulls a coworker out of the weeds but if a man helps a woman out, somehow it is expected at some point...that she couldn't handle the job...eventually we would see that.
I as well am enlightened and observant enough to know that women are a distraction in the kitchen, especially if they are attractive....
I am considered attractive... (I am not being conceited here), however I play my attractiveness down dramatically when at work. I wear men's boxer briefs (they are soo **** comfortable) so that if I am bent over cleaning something...there is no difference than catching a glimpse of guys waistband. I of course wear no makeup and try my best not to ask anyone for anything...EVER. They are shocked if I come in for dinner and on several occasions didn’t recognize me at all.
It’s a shame because I would love to feel like there is no gender bias, and we are all equal. But they speak to me differently... (Seem to be a bit more aggressive, like they can intimidate me), and when I speak back in kind, the comment is man what a bit**, Oh she's difficult, moody, or hard to get along with; you can’t tell a woman anything. But when I keep my mouth shut and choose the battles I want to fight...then they feel they can walk all over me because I just try and do the job with little conflict. What they don’t understand is that I really don’t give a crap what they say/do/think…I fight the battles I can win. And if I catch a mistake or challenge them on an issue….oh forget it. I don’t get credit for knowing, or seeing. If I bring light to the mistake….and that it was in fact me who caught it…oh she’s just looking for recognition, and glory.
Tonight on the line, and I am not kidding here….The f’ing supervisor was asking me for something…I told him I was busy and couldn’t right then, could he get it himself please. I had 5 plates to plate, and he could have gotten what he was asking for himself (he was right beside me on the line and could have done whatever it was very simply)….he told me (and I am not even kidding here) that this was not a democracy…it was a monarchy….and if he asked me for something I must comply. I swear to you…in the middle of a 350 dinner rush, I actually stopped what I was doing, looked at him and laughed in his face….continued what I was doing, and eventually he got for himself what he needed. Will I hear about it tomorrow from the Chef, about how difficult I am…sure I will. Our Chef also came over and complemented a new sauté guy (whom I trained) on his seafood fett pasta. Told him that his looked better than the supervisors when we is on sauté. I was just waiting for him to say, thanks…marina told me to do it this way (because the supervisor was screwing it up. So I trained him to do it the right way) did he? Of course not, and I didn’t want to step on his complement. So I kept quite.
This is a very sore subject for me because I deal with it everyday, and I don't know if it will ever change. I am sorry for venting, tonight was a bad one. I take great pride in knowing there are those out there like Michele Bernstein, and Alice Waters to blaze the trails for up and comers like me.....


----------



## 100folds (Apr 9, 2005)

holy ****!
I am a chef d' partie of entremetier, have been an executive chef and I am a woman. I can understand what you are saying but I believe you are putting too much emphasim on being a woman in a male dominate industry. My suggestion to you is too allow yourself to be femine but also be good at your job. Allow the passion to rule your life, meaning research, read, study, practice and become not just better in the practical sense but in knowledge as well.
We will never be put in the same catagory as men when it comes to what we do. You have to accept that it is a boys club. Yes, stand up for yourself and what you believe in. Be strong at all times. But do not sacrifice yourself for a battle that does not even really exist. 
It took me a long time to accept that I was a woman long before I was a cook. Now Im both and the balance is amazing.
Good luck and I hope to god that you find an environment that is nurturing and respectful, not aggressive and possesive like the one your in.


----------



## lukeygina (Mar 28, 2005)

I am a male just coming out of high school and a career change (military didn't work out) so I'm just beginning to find my way in this industry... In the military it is very similiar... you are not aloud to comment on something like sex discrimination but it's there. Males look at women with respect but it's not the same in all cases... Our head boss of our shop personally didn't like women and it was so obvious it killed me and I'm a male... It's wrong and the GM should not alow it to go on... but I guess it's hard...

I give you both the upmost in respect for taking the discrimination and holding your head high... it must be really hard!!! I'm sorry my fellow males can't be educated enough to see that a woman can do anything a male can do and often better than males... without being stereotypical, most females have alot more patience than alot of males...


----------



## ldts60 (Feb 9, 2005)

Your opinions are great! And It's nice hearing from open minded males.
BUT ......... I want to hear from men that really have an issue with women 
in the kitchen and the reasons why?
Come on guy's I know your out there and if cooking is your art and with art comes conviction ,So be brave and give this forum some fire :chef:


----------



## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

I'm curious as to what the point would be in taking this discussion in that direction. Airing discriminatory and inflammatory opinions behind the anonymity of a computer screen takes no particular amount of courage and we discourage that type of fire.


----------



## frizbee (Sep 27, 2003)

_Airing discriminatory and inflammatory opinions behind the anonymity of a computer screen takes no particular amount of courage and we discourage that type of fire.

BUT ......... I want to hear from men that really have an issue with women 
in the kitchen and the reasons why?_

I didn't interpret it as an invitation to female bash… but I think that the comfort of anonymity would allow open discussion of why some men do have issues with women in the kitchen.
I am all for the conversation…as long as it doesn't degenerate. I think it could be actually insightful.
Frizbee


----------



## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

What do you expect to hear? It will all boil down to this:

1) Women are no good in the kitchen because __________

2) But not all women of course, I know a female who ___________


----------



## ldts60 (Feb 9, 2005)

I'm doing some research for a culinary history paper ,yes times are changing but I know that there are some old school types out there and I need to present arguments on pro's and con's .


----------



## chef john (Mar 3, 2005)

Three of the women Chefs that have been previously mentioned as role models and as ones who have opened doors, I have personally either worked with or been acquainted with them professionally starting many years ago before they were "name " chefs. Do you know why they became successful as chefs? 
Because they acted like chefs. 
You know what? They wore eyeliner, just a trace amount, they had a whiff of perfume on there chef's jackets and had purple scrunchies to hold back their hair. Yes, they didn't deny they were female, because being a woman had nothing to do with their vision of themselves. Only people who aren't secure chefs worry about it. They were above it. 
They cooked tough. 
When the line was busy, they held there own. When prep was needed they got it done. When a FOH manager needed to know "what he needed to know", they told him. They were tough on staff and tougher on themselves. 
But they cooked tough. And over time, like anyone who is successful, they developed their own vision of their cuisine and pursued it. 
Do a lot of women make it in this profession? No, not really, but I think that has to do with unreal expectations and the Food Network. Not their gender. But, anyone who is successful in this culinary endeavor generally shares the same traints with others who are successful, regardless of sex. 
Thanks for letting me put my two cents in, I hope I wasn't too long winded. 
Bye, now.


----------



## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

From a historical perspective, you can ask why are there so few women ___________?

The answer is almost always the same, in one form or another.

Nobody except for an outright chauvinist will even attempt to answer that question. It's not even old school thinking, it's ancient, primitive, Neanderthal, cro-magnon, Australopithecus Afarensis.


----------



## 100folds (Apr 9, 2005)

I completley agree with you. I have seen women sacrifice their feminity because they feel they need to. They think they have to erase their gender in order to be seen but they dont understand that it takes the passion or maybe the obsession in this industry in order to become successful. It took me a while to learn this myself and I wish I could have been told it instead of learning it on my own but I believe that it is a lesson best learned on one's own.


----------



## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

It's not that there are so few great female chefs, but BECAUSE it's a male-dominated field, men receive most of the limelight. 

Of course, there are lots of great chefs--male, female, black, white, etc... Just because you don't read about them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't think it's necessary to try to bring on a heated discussion.


----------



## 100folds (Apr 9, 2005)

This is not a heated discussion. This is people expressing their ideas and I believe most of us agree. I don't uderstand what problems you might have with this.


----------



## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I didn't say this is a heated discussion, but with statements like the one above, or the mere title of the thread, it surely can go in that direction. 

Now do you understand?


----------



## beefcheeks (Apr 3, 2005)

In my years of cooking, I've found women cooks to be some of the most resourceful, and articulate of all the cooks I've worked with. They are well schooled, passionate and highly imaginative in their craft. Therefore, I cannot agree with Mr. Point. His reference of man's dominance in this field is highly sexist at best. Absolutely untrue in todays world.

The reason there are fewer women chefs than men, is because fewer turn out for the job. I'd say male chefs outnumber women 10 to 1. Why, you ask? Well, aside form the physical demands this job requires, and the burns, cuts, and broken nails that you will surely encounter, men in general are better leaders. This is true. Some women possess this quality, but they are the exception. Good leadership skills are an important aspect of being a chef. A trait more inherently male. You see, in the kitchen, we "dance". In a dance, it is customary for a man to lead.

Then again, it really depends on how you are defining "Chef". The number of female pastry _chefs_ , line or partie _chefs_ , or even sous _chefs_ , are growing every year. The esteemed chef/owner moniker can now serve the likes of a Traci Des Jardin or a Nancy Oakes. But it suffices to say why a culinary icon like Alice Waters, or even the late, great Julia Childs never considered themselves to be chefs. These women found a place to contribute their talent, and passions for food in areas like teaching and writing. Not necessarily running a kitchen even if they owned one.

Being a chef is very hard work, both physically and mentally, requiring the tenacity and guile of a skilled quaterback. Posies, growing in the field, gets tramppled on to score a much needed touchdown with time running out. Some women, on the other hand, will pluck the tiny blossoms, don them in their hair, and flash a smile at the cute quarterback. 

So sorry.....my .02 just turned into .04.


----------



## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

This isn't even worth talking about. There are a million other vocations where women are the minority. We all know why. It's not that women aren't capable, it's a male hangup, get over it.


----------



## ozarkrose (Apr 4, 2005)

Thanks chef John! An easily mis-interpreted quote is "Attitude is Everything" and this applies to any career.
But now I have to question why this question is being directed for men to answer? Seems like our questioner has in fact put a gender bias facet on our lens ... interesting...


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I have avoided this thread for a few days for a number of reason, least of which is a flame war.The topic of this thread can and has invoked some rather telling replies of some members that concern me.Also, some replies are right on and just. For those members that feel the need to challenge a womans ability to lead and be a very positive force in our industry are near sited and naive.Testosterone must be held in check, and managed to promote our industry. And to the starter of this thread, I question your intentions, and hope you are truly being honest with yourself because you will encounter many challenges in your career and maturity will be your Alli


----------



## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

I have to agree that there were some insightful views offered. However, I, too, must question the intent of which this thread was proliferated. Merely referring to men as better leaders because they are, well, men is not really a valid point. Nor is it an arguable point. It is just prejudice, in plain English. The insight I have garnered from this thread is that as far as we have gone in our evolutionary quest for balance, there are still some folks that tip the scales with an overindulgent sense of stupidity.
So the question really can be, "why aren't there that many male elementary school teachers?" or "why aren't there many female construction workers?" or "why are some people allowed to reproduce rather than having their gene pool thinned out with a bit more chlorine?"
Well, I suppose, "just because" will have to suffice.
Good night.


----------



## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

I would be interested in hearing from the thread starter as well about the intentions of this thread? Is this purely for research or is there another motive. 

In my humble opinion I have never really thought there are were very few female chefs so I can't quite understand where your coming from. I suppose maybe in the 70's back in the days of Bocuse that may have been true, but today there are just thousands of female chefs nowdays (and very excellent ones I might add). When I was in culinary school, yes there were more men, but there were a lot of women. Also, I recently taught a class at a Culinary school in Chicago and the number of men and women was 50/50.


----------



## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Finally, a string of intellugent answers. Maybe we're onto something!

To the person who started this thread: Perhaps you're confusing greatness for fame. They're two very different things.


----------



## chef mike (Apr 11, 2005)

Good time to lighten up a little, huh? Try these on for size:

Behind every successful man is a surprised woman. -Maryon Pearson

I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to combine marriage and a career.-Gloria Steinem

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt
Whatever women must do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily, this is not difficult. -Charlotte Whitton

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. A woman must do what he can't.-Rhonda Hansome

Debate is good; you're not supposed to get mad about it. Is that how you react when someone doesn't like your cooking, too?

As to the intention of starting this thread- hey, we're having fun here, killing time; did anyone ever imagine there would be a right answer?


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I don't buy that statement.


----------



## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Debate is good, I agree. This is a debate with an insult attached.


----------



## beefcheeks (Apr 3, 2005)

This must be meant for me. I now realize how this statement could be interpreted to cause insult. I showed it to my girlfriend and she gave me a slap...OUCH!!  I sincerely apologize to those who took offense to this statement. It was not my intention to demean our female colleagues by referring them incapable to lead. I am simply stating an opinion based on my work related experiences with women. I know the're women out there who are just as capable, or even better than men to lead, I've just never seen them ...at least not in a kitchen that employs 60 or so cooks. In my 10 years here, we've gone through roughly 6-8 ECs. All of them men. 

On the other hand, is it a pejudice remark if I say women are better homemakers than men? Or boys are better at climbing trees than girls? How about Japanese are better sushi chefs than Americans? Do you know that a woman cannot be a sushi chef in Japan because of her body temperature? Is this prejudice? Or an opinion based on actual observable experience? This is the angle I was going for. No malice intended.

With that, I will refrain from posting more on this thread due to the sensitivities it provokes and the percieved ugliness it seems to bring out in some of us. Once again, I hope you can accept my apology, I meant no harm... and yes ldts60, it's all your fault (j/k)  

Well, I better close out now. I see my girlfriend coming and shes making a fist.


----------



## frizbee (Sep 27, 2003)

Can I say that in this day and age we are entirely too PC. I think we shouldn’t be afraid to broach any conversation, as long as it remains sensible. Sex discrimination is something I feel we, as enlightened adults should be able to discuss intelligently. Sticking our heads in the sand and stating that we shouldn’t even discuss it I think is absurd. And how can we move through this or any issue and make changes one position/person at a time, if we can’t even discuss it? As a woman I don’t feel that I have read anything that I feel has been of a flaming nature. 
The statement Beefcheeks made about men being better leaders, which he quickly retracted, I think is a matter of difference. Women are a different type of leader, not better or worse, just different. I learned in a leadership class, that men usually implement authoritative leadership styles, whereas women utilize more charismatic leadership, evoking greater communication, and emotional skills. Not better or worse, just different.
So the poster originally asked…why so few women are great chefs. I chimed in on my personal experiences and told the ways I try and assimilate into this society of cooks. I downplay my gender, because ultimately I understand that I am fighting an uphill battle. To me assimilation is the key, trying to win by leveling the field as much as I can. 
Someone brought up that there are also few female construction workers. Well many years ago, I was a certified asbestos removal worker. I worked on a small crew and initially my gender alone was a distraction. Well I jumped in and worked alongside of the men, and in a couple of weeks I was accepted, and respected for working just as hard as I possibly could. They respected my work ethic. 
I have been working in the kitchen much longer than I worked construction. I have personally found this is an alpha-attitude industry, more so than with construction workers or even other industries I have worked in. I find this alpha attitude is what separates us from the masses. Therein for me lies the difference. It is because of my alpha female attitude that I find a home in this industry. 
Fear is instilled in a man when someone he deems as a threat moves in to his territory. The sting is amplified when that threat is a woman. The thing that makes me laugh the loudest is that the men I have worked for or with that have been the most encouraging, were able to be so because I wasn’t a threat to them, or their position. It is only those who fear they have something to loose to me or any other woman for that matter that become combative or aggressive. It’s natural, and perfectly biological.

The saying goes…we’ve come along way baby….but we have much further to go.
Frizbee


----------



## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Great post Frizbee. For the record, we're not trying to discourage discussion, here. Jim would have locked down the thread if that were the case. As moderators, it's our job to encourage discussion, actually. We're just trying to make sure the discussion stays constructive.


----------



## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Well said Frizbee. I too believe that our society has become too PC. It's getting to the point that we can't discuss the differences between anyone for fear of offending. I stand firmly by my first post, in this discussion, basically stating I could care less about age, gender, race, nationality when it comes to people in my kitchen. My only criteria is their ability to cook, their attitude, and their willingness to follow my lead. That said, I do think there are major differences between men and women. It's scientific fact that men and women approach things differently, that their minds work in slightly different ways, that they view the world slightly differently due to sexual differences. In no way does this imply that one is better than the other, just slightly different. It is possible to extole our differences without resorting to the "whose better" argument.


----------



## chefjeannine (Apr 23, 2005)

well, I'm a woman chef. I have clawed my way up through the ranks over the years. I am now the exec at an upscale inn and have been running kitchens for 8 years. In my current position, I have won awards, make appearances in the local media and write a food column for a local paper. 

I run my kitchen with the expectation that everyone just needs to do their job and not have an ego involved. I want it to be a partnership not a test of wills or skills. I want to teach my young sous chefs as they get out of school the whys and wherefores and the shortcuts that I have learned over the years, the stuff they dont teach in cooking school. I want to put out great food and let the plates speak volumes. 


I worked with my share of male chefs who screamed, threw things and degraded me. I knew I never wanted to be that kind of chef. I also never let people walk all over me and always spoke up if I felt that I was being disrespected. I never lost a job for doing this. And I can hold my own against any man or woman in the kitchen. We are all people after all! 

I think if women get into this business and expect to be humiliated , then it will happen. If they stand up for themselves from the beginning, after a little testing by the boys, it will stop. It always did for me.


----------



## devotay (May 14, 2001)

No male chef has had a greater impact on American cuisine than Alice Waters.

I also find it a little disappointing that we've made it trough 34 posts before anyone mentioned James Beard Award nominee Lucia Watson or James beard Award Winner Odessa Piper.

I agree with those who have said here that women in the industry will take great strides forward when they stop trying to be great woman chefs and simply try to be great chefs.

By the way, my sous chef is a woman, and a great sous chef (neither because or in spite of being a woman)


----------

