# Drinking in the kitchen



## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

We got dinged by the health inspector because she caught some of the guys on the line with waterbottles. So now we got a memo forbidding waterbottles at your station.

Commence rage!!!

This is utter bull. Kitchens are hot sweaty places, and we shouldn't be forced to waste our breaktime or production time going to the break area just to rehydrate. I think I'd fricking die without my waterbottle chillin in the lowboy.

Our old policy allowed the use of sports top bottles to minimize cross contamination and spillage issues, but that still wasn't good enough.

What's the policy where you work? I've been at places that allowed free soda, free soda, but limitations on the number of cups you could use, water only, places that would set out pitchers of ice water on the line during service.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

HD here requires disposable cup with a lid and straw.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hot line?  Sports type water bottles would make the most sense.  Cups get broken or spilled, disposable ones get tipped over--irregardless of lids and straws, pitchers get tupped over, I think sports bottles make the ost sense.

You must have some kind of radar when the H. inspector comes in.  When he/she does, all bottles go into the staff room/corner and the halos appear.  Usually you get a minute or two of notice.

My time it was garbage can lids, all garbages had to be covered.  Made as much sense as politics, as you had to lift up the lid to dump stuff in, lids invariably got stuffed under tables until the H. inspector walked in.  Once I tried to be clever and cut an 8" round hole in the lid, got shi* from the Chef and the H. Inspector

Then it was sanitizer. Some wanted it in a little red bucket, others in a spray bottle.  Spray bottle made the most sense--never got tipped over, never got contaminated.  So,--you guessed it, when we got our two minutes warning, the spray bottles dissapeared and the little red buckets appeared,

Think of it as this way:
Your 16, you went through a yellow light.  Cops stops you.  You could be a smarta**, and tell him it was yellow and it was legal to do so, or you could war a halo and "yessir/nosir" until he let you off with a warning.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Yeah...thats bull****. You absolutely should be allowed to drink water during service...I know in the kitchen where I work it's a requirement. I stand right in front of a salamander, Jade planchas, and a cranked oven. I sweat...a lot...every day for 9-12 hours. There is no way I'm not drinking ice water constantly. 

Do you work in a corporate place? That kind of memo sounds like it was written by someone who doesn't cook on the line and has no idea what they are talking about. 

I mean, I'm all for sanitation of course, but done with closed top water bottles I don't see the problem...


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Tulare County, California

Water (beverages) may be in food area ONLY if in a single use, disposable container with a lid and straw, accessible ONLY by leaning over and placing mouth on straw.

Container must be placed away from food prep/cooking area and NO manual contact is permitted.

I think if the HD had their way, we'd have to have IR nipples to such on!


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## left4bread (May 8, 2009)

Wow.  You got dinged for that?

I'm sorry, thought I had a brutal HD.

Got dinged for open containers once, was told to get closed containers.

I would think that if your place was big enough for it to be a health concern,

you'd be dealing with CDC and not the Dept of health.  Well, both actually, but you know what I mean.

Wow.

Currently, plastic cups with lids and straws.  More of an owner's rule than a HD rule.

Not sure of the rule locally.  They seem to make the rules up on the fly anyways.

Last place, anything goes/went.  No beer in coffee cups, please. 

People looked at me like I was an @sshole when I told them they couldn't eat their meal while prepping food.

"Like, hey man, I'm multi-tasking..."

I could go on a rant here...  I've got stories... 

but the bottom line is: you have to bend over.

"Thank you, sir.  May I have another?"


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

We are allowed single use cups.

although we were told to keep sani buckets on the floor.

There is a million interpretations of the FDA guidelines. sometimes within our own dept.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

The outside of most Sani Buckets are dirty yet they permit them on table. Should not be, what if one tips and falls into food or splashed/. Health Dept. rules with forked tongeu, every inspector has different take on things. You have to wear a hat so hair does not fall in food. I had one guy totally bald and inspector  wrote us up for no hat. You figure it.??


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

That's the first I've heard of not someone saying that you can't have a waterbottle in the kitchen.  No matter where I've worked I've always been allowed to drink on the line.  It's just common sense to do that especially when you're sweating buckets for 8+ hours a day!


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

leeniek said:


> That's the first I've heard of not someone saying that you can't have a waterbottle in the kitchen. No matter where I've worked I've always been allowed to drink on the line. It's just common sense to do that especially when you're sweating buckets for 8+ hours a day!


It is not that you cannot drink on the line, it is *how* you are allowed to drink on the line.

From the explanation I received, as long as you *do not touch the drink container with anything besides your lips* and the container cannot spill, it is ok. The problem, at least here, seems to be _hands are dirty and touching a drink container may be a source of cross-contamination. _That is why single use cups, i.e. fill, drink, dispose, are also permissible.

Though it might make sense in theory, the practical application sucks!


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Sweat is ok, but a water bottle is not....Some day we will be required to wear a biological suit.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I predict that within 5 years everyone dispensing food of any kind will be required to wear a mask of some kind.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Ed, it wouldn't surprise me if that came to be.


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## left4bread (May 8, 2009)

panini said:


> ... we were told to keep sani buckets on the floor.


Drives me up the wall... You want me to clean my deck with a rag soaked in bleach water and garbage flung from my prep board?!

We had 'motion sensor' paper towel dispenser mounted everywhere. HD wanted them to be set so that there was always

a leaf of paper towel hanging from the dispenser. I would always set them to only dispense when the motion detector was triggered.

Waited for them to show up so I could spit on the hanging dispensed towel to prove my point.

Never got the chance.

The politics are...

maddening.


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## Chef W.G (Nov 8, 2001)

It is all up to interpretation of the following rule, from the 410 (FDA Food Code)

_410-IAC 7-24-136_

_Sec 136. (a) Except as specified in subsection b, an employee shall chew gum, eat and drink food, or use any form of tobacco only in designated areas where the contamination of:_

_1. exposed food_

_2. clean equipment, utensils, and linen;_

_3. unwrapped single-service and single-use articles; or_

_4. other items needing protection;_

_cannon result._

_(b) A food employee may drink from a closed beverage container if the container is handled in a manner that prevents contamination of the following:_

_1. The employees hands._

_2. The container._

_3. Exposed food._

_4. Clean equipment, utensils, and linens_

_5. Unwrapped single-service and single-use articles._

_(c) For purposes of this section, a violation of subsection (a) or (b) is a critical item._

This is what the Feds dictate and it is up too each local HD to interpret it. In my kitchen we just stuck a little shelf next to the hand sink for employee beverages, so after you take a drink you can wash your hands, and if there is a spill it doe not contaminate anything.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I know!!!!!

Camelbacks.

Those drinking bladders that cyclists use that look like a little back-pack and have a drinking tube snaking through your shirt and clipped on your lapel. 

Look Ma! No Hands!

Seriously though, th shelf above the handsink is a good idea--If you can get staff to use it when the HD comes in......


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## thetincook (Jun 14, 2002)

LMAO, camelbacks!!!!!!!!

I just don't get the reasoning of the Health dept sometimes. They want you to touch filthy garbage can lids routinely during the day, but if you lay a finger on a water bottle or a drink cup, it's 'shut er down' time.

I worked with a guy once. He was wearing a hair net for his head hear, another one around his mouth for his mustache and goatee. He was busy folding cake batter or something with his hand, and the batter was clinging to his hirsute forearm. Yargh

At my place, it looks like we'll wait until the Management goes lax and stops caring, like it normally does, and then back to business as usual. Just gotta pay more attention to when the HI shows up.

Any of you guys remember when they made a big crack down on using milk crates for storing stuff or turned upside down as a poor man's dunnage rack?


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Well, i guess i'll pipe up on this one, too. personally, i don't like anyone consuming ANYTHING while on the job. Don't care if they're prepping, or working the line. That's a pet-peeve of mine. I don't care how hungry or thirsty you are, if you can't step off the line long enough to make due, there's something wrong with how you work. I used to guzzle anything I could when i was young and working the line. Only made me sweat more. Cut back on the water, and you sweat less. take a 30 second break every half hour and get a small drink to rehydrate - maybe half a cup. That's all it takes to stay hydrated. I once put a thermometer on the line and it registered 40 degrees Celsius (100F?) between me, the steamer and the salamander at the height of summer. Yes, it was HOT, but we made due. Once i stopped drinking so much (it was really just a habit) I was less exhausted, less drenched, and looking so much more forward to a cold beer after service! 

I can't stand people who have a little snack going while they work, or a multitiude of soda, juice, and water in the fridge, or a Starbucks cup on the shelf above their station. Get a grip, man! When i used to teach, the rule was you left your water bottle or whatever your choice of beverage, on the shelf by the door. Not on your station, not under the table, not on a shelf above your work station. Poor attitude, and poor professionalism. Sorry. I have severely dinged competitors when i judged competitions for this, too. It's just not safe. If you say you can have a drink on the line under certain circumstances, you're just muddying the water. Yes you can, if it's a disposable cup, but no you can't if the cup has no lid, but yes you can if you have a straw, but no you can't if the straw is in a non-disposable cup...Rules are only enforceable if they are clear and simple: NO FOOD OR DRINK ALLOWED. Period. I'm a pretty easy going guy, but when it comes to food safety issues, i have no heart. Health Inspectors LOVE me...

Read my new thread...


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## eato (Jul 2, 2011)

Here is my opinion-F the department. Don't get me wrong they serve a good purpose,but sometimes its unrealistic. Slow the inspector down at the host stand, let the crew know to remove their bottles and get on with the day. I work in D.C. they are crazy here.


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## rgm2 (May 28, 2011)

I actually think a CamelBak is a very good idea. Our company has ex-HI employees that work for us and they come aroundand run inspections on a regular basis. Our company rules are harsher than the HD anyway so when the HI does come we are fine without the "scramble" to clean chit up. I am actually the biggest offender and am working on cleaning up my act. It is hard to break bad home cooking habits at work, but I am getting better.


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## eato (Jul 2, 2011)

cool idea-think I'll give it a try


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

I work in WI and I don't even know if they have any rules on this. For the most part, health dept. rules drive me nuts. Gloves, for instance. What can get on your hands that wouldn't get on gloves just as easily? When I first started in this business, gloves were unheard of. And there's more problems now with food contamination than there was then. I once observed an employee don gloves and start cutting up a lemon that hadn't been washed. She thought she was doing such a great thing by wearing gloves and didn't even think about how the knife was dragging any surface germs right down through the flesh. I recently read a restaurant review where the reviewer was upset because the restaurant personnel didn't wipe down the salt and pepper shakers. O.K., granted they could, but the reality is the person had to open the door to get in the place, other people touch the door handle, and no one wipes it off after each person enters. So unless this reviewer washed their hands before sitting down (which I doubt) the shakers made no difference. Bottom line is, there's germs out there, and you're not going to get away from them. Goves etc. just give a false sense of security to the public. We're required to take an 8 hour course on food safety. I can teach it in 30 seconds. Get it hot and keep it hot. Get it cold and keep it cold. Wash your hands. Wash your hands. Wash your hands.


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## rgm2 (May 28, 2011)

Greyeagle, I think you are over simplifying it a bit however i agree with your basic theory. The salt and pepper shaker thing is very much different than the door knob. Imagine that dude sitting over at the table across the way that just sucked the BBQ sauce off his fingers after finishing off one of his ribs that picks up the salt to "fix" his mashed potatoes that he never even tasted. Or that lady that just changed her baby at the table and then grabs the pepper for her salad that just showed up as she was finishing up. 

A false sense of security is still security. Also there is MUCH more to that 8 hour class than your 30 seconds, but you prolly never got is while gazing out the window. What foods go on what levels in a rack or blast chiller is a kinda big deal.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Greyeagle, yes there are health rules in Wisconsin dealing with this drinking issue.  If the beverage is in a food prep area it must be in a single use cup with lid and straw.  I regularly get dinged for this as I too feel it is BS, but I just take the ding, nod, and smile.  I'm not going to get closed down for this so I don't really worry about it, but I will admit, if I know the health inspector is coming in before he steps foot in the kitchen, I try to make sure all cups are removed.

Talking about stupid things inspectors ding you for, I recently had a visit from a third party company that does safety audits for our company.  Overall, I think they are a good thing, being in the institutional foodservice industry and dealing with both a "captive" population and a population with people that are "at risk" or are a targeted group with possibly compromised immune systems.  While overall the idea is good, some of these inspectors are a little, well let's say, they are a little anal?!  In my last inspection I got dinged for filling a cup of ice with water I got from the handsink, because a handsink is only to be used to wash hands.  Got dinged for having a spray bottle of sanitizer (at proper concentration) sitting on the prep table, because chemicals are to be stored a minimum of 1 foot away from food contact surfaces.  Doesn't matter that the sanitizer will be used on said surface.  Didn't get dinged but got coached because to cool leftovers after "line" we place them in shallow pans and put them in the freezer, stirring them regularly and monitoring the temperture until properly chilled.  Well the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) says that after placing food in shallow containers it is to be placed in the cooler.  "But the freezer is faster."-me.  "Yes, but the SOP says to put it in the cooler."-inspector.  "Do you not see how inane that statement is."-me.  "No need to get hostile sir.  I can show you what it says."-inspector.  "Believe me this isn't hostile.  This is amused and disheartened."-me.  "I'm here to help you."-inspector.  "You just don't get it, please just continue."-me.  And finally, got dinged because the hand soap dispensers, at the handsinks (to be used for handwashing only) weren't labeled, "Hand Soap" and you know that all containers containing chemicals must be properly labelled.  Sure I do, but come on....really?


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

RGM2: It happens that we wipe off our shakers when the table is cleared. But I would never have a fit about it if a place didn't.
That's as silly as expecting a place to wipe off the utensil handles on the buffet table after every person. Sure the guy could lick his fingers and then touch the shaker. He could have readjusted his underwear on the way in before grabbing the door handle too. Same with diaper changer, The point is,people can't and shouldn't expect someone to wipe off every single surface they might touch. If that's what they expect, then they should bring their own disposable gloves or live in a bubble. The world is full of germs. And you may believe all I do is gaze out the window during class, but the fact is I hold food manager's licenses in two states. Long before ServSafe was around, my culinary instructor felt we should have some sort of test for sanitation. He called our local state inspector, who lacking anything else, gave us the test he had to take to BE a health inspector. We had to pass that in order to graduate. And if you look in the front of the ServSafe book, there is a disclaimer that the material is compiled based on the best of their knowlege, that no one should use the information as a basis for procedures in setting up or operating their business (paraphrasing here) and that you should consult your lawyer. I'm sure my lawyer knows what temp my coolers and freezers should run at. They're basically saying you shouldn't rely on their information. Which makes me ask what good passing their test does? I still think most of it is a bunch of hooey. Wouldn't need most of it if people weren't so utterly lacking in common sense. I was also a strong proponent of licensing long before anyone else ever thought of it. I would see inspectors come in and check equipment for NSF stickers and never pay any attention to procedure at all. Someone could be chopping a raw chicken breast on top of a head of lettuce and they wouldn't care. They'd be checking to make sure you had a commercial toaster. (People die from eating toast from home toasters all the time you know. Same with microwaves.) They'd worry about no thermometers in the coolers, and I'd have to point out that no one but me knew what they should read anyway. Not to mention the dumb stuff they come up with. There is nothing filthier than a plexiglass cutting board. I won't have one in my own house. I prefer wood because it's cleaner. But in the restaurants for years you couldn't have wood boards, knife handles, etc. (You can again now.) Might get a splinter in the food. So what? At least it's organic as compared to the plexi chips that go in the salad. But people could cook and serve fish on a rough cedar plank. If you have a fly in your kitchen, they have a fit. But you can cook outside on a grill with flies everywhere.  Go figure. I gave up trying to make sense of it a long time ago.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Pete: We're from the government, and we're here to help you. Ha ha! I just had an inspection and got it for not having a sign at the "hand washing sink". On account of we don't have one. It's the dish sprayer because we're grandfathered for no hand sink. WI is pretty lax. Don't have to have commercial equipment, all kinds of stuff you can't get by with in Minnesota. I also got it for no labels on a couple of containers. I do that on purpose so they can ding me for something minor like that. If you don't, they'll look around until they find something expensive to get you for. I get a kick out of that sanitizer thing too. You spray the counter with it and it stays there without rinsing and the kind I use is the same as the sanitizer in the dishwasher that stays on the dishes. But yes, it has to be one foot away from the food. How do you keep the food one foot above the plate? You should have told that inspector that your freezer is an external ice paddle. That would have really confused him. Tell him to look in his book and see if it says anything about cooling with an ice paddle, and then say your freezer is an external one. Tell him to check with his boss about it. Any luck he'd get fired for being that stupid. Wonder what he'd say about a blast chiller. Probably shut you down. What a ditz!  I had a fire inspector tell me I had to put a new bulb in an exit sign that's just a flat plastic sign that says "exit". No place for a bulb.No electricity going to it. He told me to do it anyway. I said O.K. Next time he came he never even looked at it.


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## allium (Dec 8, 2010)

Steelbanger said:


> Well, i guess i'll pipe up on this one, too. personally, i don't like anyone consuming ANYTHING while on the job. Don't care if they're prepping, or working the line. That's a pet-peeve of mine. I don't care how hungry or thirsty you are, if you can't step off the line long enough to make due, there's something wrong with how you work. I used to guzzle anything I could when i was young and working the line. Only made me sweat more. Cut back on the water, and you sweat less. take a 30 second break every half hour and get a small drink to rehydrate - maybe half a cup. That's all it takes to stay hydrated. I once put a thermometer on the line and it registered 40 degrees Celsius (100F?) between me, the steamer and the salamander at the height of summer. Yes, it was HOT, but we made due. Once i stopped drinking so much (it was really just a habit) I was less exhausted, less drenched, and looking so much more forward to a cold beer after service!


Having witnessed people go down due to heat stroke, gotta say this is insane. If you have time to step off the line frequently enough to stay hydrated, there's something wrong with your restaurant--you're overstaffed and not doing enough business.


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Allium said:


> Having witnessed people go down due to heat stroke, gotta say this is insane. If you have time to step off the line frequently enough to stay hydrated, there's something wrong with your restaurant--you're overstaffed and not doing enough business.


Equally, if your kitchen is so hot people faint from heat stroke there is something wrong with your entire business. I've worked in some pretty old holes-in -the-wall which would never pass a building inspection these days. Places where the owners tinkered around with the equipment and the physical structure of the building without obtaining a permit or asking an engineer for advice. No make-up air, inadequate ventilation and so forth. There are laws about heat and ventilation, and there are laws in the Occupational Health and Safety regulations about exposure to heat and noise. I still maintain that you can stay hydrated without having to have a baby bottle to suck on while you work. No offence, but as I said, this is a pet peeve of mine...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ah, Steelbanger, ever work at Baur au Lac in Zurich?

I did a year there in the early 90's.  Kitchen had no ventilation.  None, zip, nada, had 12 meter high cielings with windows, but had no ventilation.  One loooong sucker of a stove ran down the middle of the kitchen, mut have been easily 8 or 10 meters long, the old electric  kind with the 1/3 2/3 3/3 switches.  That was hot.


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

No, not the Baur au Lac, ( although I know it - I did a short stint at the St Gotthard) but a couple of other old hotels in the Alps - one, the Bellevue in Rigi-Kaltbach was built in 1878, but by the time I got there, they'd renovated the kitchen, got new ventilation and mostly new equipment. All electric, and, yes, it was very hot - radiant heat, not convective. The kitchen was in the basement, only about 7 1/2 feet of ceiling space, but the new ventilation system actually made for a pretty good atmosphere.

My point is, that just because we are cooks, are we expected to work in sub-standard environments? yes, that's how it used to be, but does it still have to be? if a carpenter told his apprentice to climb a ladder with missing rungs, because he can't afford to buy a new one, would we accept this as standard practice? If a fireman were to be sent into a flaming inferno with a faulty exposure suit, would that be part of the job? Why do we have to breathe carcinogenous fumes all day, be exposed to extreme heat and noise, and be expected to shut up about it? I used to think that this was just a part of the job, until i got older. Now I have a family and the prospect of not living as full and long of a life as I could have if i had not been exposed to these risks bothers me. I am hard of hearing in one ear - occupational hazard, i am sure, and i have been coughing up brown phlegm for years. It only got better when i stopped cooking on a daily basis... Two of my colleagues have died of lung and throat cancer. Not that there has been any proven connection to their jobs, but I am convinced it was the cause, because neither of them smoked. They were cooks all their lives...

Don't get me wrong. A bit of discomfort is to be expected when you cook for a living, but it shouldn't actually harm you - we have to complete what is called a "physical demands analysis" for all positions in our company, and that of a cook is still one of the most demanding, however we are bound by government standards in respect of exposure to heat, noise and noxious fumes. Our kitchens are designed by people like myself, and then verified by professional engineers to make sure we meet the standards for air movement, HVAC balancing and a host of other requirements. It used to be bad because we didn't know any better. Just like we used to send men under ground into the mines, into a certain early death from exposure to coal dust and gas. That was in the past. The industry has changed, and the miners are looked after much better now. Why are we still caught up in the 19th century when it comes to cooks?? This should not be a rite of passage, something you can brag about to the young apprentices or your kids (when I was young, it was so hot in the kitchen we'd all pass out on a regular basis...). It's your life, your health. You only have one. INSIST on decent working conditions!


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Steel,  don't understand the opposition to drinking water on the line....I can understand not eating on the line, or drinking soda, tea, coffee, etc (might mess with your palette) but water? Especially if it is in a proper, lidded cup so it can't spill or contaminate the line. What is the issue? 

I think proper hydration is essential to maintaining health...is it not? No offense, but that business about not drinking water to keep yourself from sweating is nonsense. If your body is purposefully shutting down your sweating mechanism then then that means you are dehydrated (your body is holding on to fluids for dear life). 

This sounds like...no offense, again....an outdated viewpoint. To me, not being allowed to drink water on the line would be comparable to your examples of "19th century" thinking. I can tell you, but a little cup of water every 30 minutes is not going to keep me hydrated, especially during service. There are times when I don't drink enough water (before and/or during service) and I start to feel sluggish and get a bad headache. Then I know I am getting pretty dehydrated.


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## steelbanger (May 13, 2011)

Someday, I do not take offense to anyone's opinion. This has been the subject of many discussions, in many different places: at the school where I taught it was the biggest problem because if you're not consequent in your policy the students will find ways to get around it: the water soon became "flavored" water, then it became juice, then coffee, then coffee and a snack... we had to be strict - no consuption of anything, no hand-to-mouth contact. There was a shelf by the door, and everything, including back packs, water bottles and snacks had to be left there. In the end it's the individual chef's decision. Mine is as stated. No one has ever complained, nor fainted, nor expressed any concern. I once worked in an old Caribbean resort where there was no ventilation, no air conditioning, and only hot wind to "cool" you down. I did not suffer from dehydration, but once had a severe spasm from lack of salt - drank too much water, and did not replenish my system with salt!

In the end, if each individual can be reasonable, there is no problem. It's only if the policy is abused and it gets out of hand that you have to clamp down. You know the old saying: give an inch, and they'll take a yard...

As far as rehydration goes, i do think we are overdoing it. Sorry, I think it's a bit of a fad, with people running around with water bottles all day. just my opinion.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

One of the things I hate the worst is we have Cajun blackened on our menu as a prep option. My boss will not allow me to take it off the menu, so I actually have a painter's mask that I wear when I have to blacken something. Thankfully that stupid trend seems to be going away, but I can't imagine what breathing that stuff does to you. The waitstaff wants to know why I complain about it, and I have to tell them it's like getting pepper sprayed evey time I have to do it. And we have a good ventilation system. A pox on Paul Prudhomme for coming up with that one! Cooks everywhere have been suffering for it ever since. (Hey, can you put some hot pepper and stuff on that and burn it for Me? Sure, why not. Some spicy charcoal ought to taste real good on that sushi grade tuna...)


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

No we don't.  For most places, we have the municipal authorities telling us to install tempered make-up air, washrooms within 50 ft of the work place, etc.

But many places still operate in total ignorance of these laws.

Why?

Because the customer doesn't see it.

Me?

I conduct baking and chocolate workshops in my kitchen.  I'm proud of it, and want people to see it.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ooops, something went wrong with that post!..........


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