# How to prevent cheese from breaking.



## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Heard recently that if corn starch is added to shredded cheese before adding it to a mac and cheese recipe, it stabilizes the cheese and helps prevent it from breaking.  Does anyone know if this is true?

Made some crock pot mac and cheese according to a friends directions (I actually ate hers and it was not broken and was delicious): mine was a broken mess.

Lily


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

That technique is more for fondue. For Mac and Cheese the flour in the roux should do the job. If you want to add a lot of cheese, you need a thicker roux. There are also egg liaison versions that can take a lot of cheese without breaking


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Here's one of the egg based varieties. It's worth trying. You can add even more cheese than he does, I've seen recipes very much like this go up to 12 or more oz of cheese.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/stove-top-mac-n-cheese-recipe.html


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

One more thing. You mention this as a slow cooker mac and cheese. Corn starch, flour, egg will all fail at some point in extended cooking. how long were you cooking this in your slow cooker? 

Another twist is that slow cookers are hotter now than they used to be for food safety reasons. If she's using an old slow cooker, mine's over 20 years old, and you're using a new one, you could have problems with it getting hotter than the recipe was written for.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

phatch,

The recipe calls for the mac and cheese to be cooked on low for 3 1/2 - 4 hours. There is an enormous amount of cheese in it though. I think it will be OK to copy and paste some of the ingredients in the sauce even though it is not my personal recipe. These are ingredients similar to Alton Brown's ingredients. There are some ingredients in the recipe I was given that I did not include, so I am not giving the whole recipe just some of the ingredients. 
The ingredients are similar, but in different amounts, to Alton Brown's ingredients for stove top mac and cheese for which you provided the link.



*Sauce *

2 eggs

1 - 16 oz. can evaporated milk

1 ½ cups sweet milk

3 cups sharp cheese, bought in a block & grated at

home

2 cups medium cheese, bought in a block & grated at

home

Regarding the crock pots. I had three; a small very old one, maybe 2 1/2 - 3 quarts, that I gave to a homeless woman when she got an apartment. It was more than likely one that was not revved up to meet new safety standards. The medium one went to my daughter when she moved to her own apartment in November. That one was not too old, but by no means new, I think it probably met the old standards. I am left with a large new one that I feel sure is the new hotter variety. I am accustomed to cooking on high and have noticed that the last few times I've done a pot roast, using the crock that is much larger than needed to cook for two people, it has dried out. Now I know I need to switch to the low setting. Thanks for the information on the change in manufacturing.

The name of the recipe I used is called "Sarah's famous crock pot mac and cheese". Sarah said that she did not have trouble with the cheese. I thought I followed the recipe just as she provided it, so the problem may have been with the crock pot. With all the ingredients called for, I probably used the medium sized pot that I no longer have. It has a low and high setting. I probably followed the instructions to cook it on low.

Lily


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## iluvtoeat (Feb 6, 2015)

Another interesting way to keep the cheese creamy without adding any starch is the "Modernist Cuisine" way. Add a small amount of Sodium Citrate.

http://modernistcuisine.com/recipes/silky-smooth-macaroni-and-cheese/

I've tried it, and it really does make a very creamy sauce that tastes only of cheese.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Citric acid will help it stabilize but at extremely high temps for so long nothing will help . The better grade cheese you use the more separation of oil you will have. Phatch is correct the hotter the pot the faster the breakdown and that goes for most everything.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

iluvtoeat and chefedb,

I am going to cook on the low setting of my crock pot from now on.  It is a new one and doubtless cooks hotter than either of my other two which I always used on high. I will try the sodium citrate when I find it.  Maybe they will have it at Whole Foods?

It is a little distressing that the better the quality of cheese the more likely it is to separate.  Any suggestions for good quality cheeses that tend to be stable?

Lily


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## iluvtoeat (Feb 6, 2015)

Lily ... you can find the sodium citrate on Amazon. I have had good luck buying ingredients made by Modernist Pantry. They have a 50g supply for $9.99 or 400g for $14.99.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't understand cooking mac & cheese in a crock pot for four hrs.

I made some couple days ago, took all of ten minutes to get into the oven.

Butter & flour into a sauce pot, make a roux, add whole milk & 1/2 & 1/2, cook to desired consistency, add cheese(s), season, mix with cooked mac, dust with parm & panko, into the oven until golden brown.





  








mac.jpg




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chefbuba


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Feb 6, 2015








Do you pre cook your pasta or add it dry to this mix that goes in the crock?


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks iluvtoeat: just ordered from the small pack from Amazon.  I have Prime and got it with my rewards points.  Luv free stuff!  My husband loves mac and cheese, and almost anything else with a cheese sauce; he needs to gain weight, so it won't hurt him.

Chefbuba,

Pasta is cooked and drained before adding to the sauce in Sarah's recipe.

Your recipe looks and sounds delicious.  The reason I tried Sarah's was that it too was delicious.  Following a hospital stay she brought a crock pot full for our family. I suppose it was the special memory of her thoughtfulness that has a good association for me.

I am going to make some today. It is basically the same process to prepare the crock pot version as to make your version: white sauce, cheese, heat.  Your Parm and Panko sound good though.  I may just make it in the oven. Now I can't wait to get to the store to get the ingredients.  I may try your recipe before I get the sodium citrate, to test and see if it breaks for me.  I see that you did not mention adding any eggs, corn starch, etc. .  I may add them to help stabilize the cheese(s).  Sarah's recipe calls for 5 cups of cheeses (around 18 oz.) may be why it broke- too much cheese. Alton Brown's recipe called for 10 oz. of cheese and the same number of eggs (2).  I hope what I make is as creamy and delicious as I remember Sarah's to be.  

Lily


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

No eggs, no corn starch, no sodium citrate. Very basic sauce, bechamel sauce, the roux (flour) is what keeps the sauce from splitting. Corn starch will not hold at high temps. Also, your recipe has way too much cheese.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks,

I will hold to 10 oz. of cheese and will do a basic bechamel.

Lily


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

I did it. Simple bechamel with 3 Tb. flour, 3 Tb. butter, 1 1/2 cups skim milk (what I had on hand) and 1 1/2 cups heavy cream (to make up for the skim milk).  5 oz. freshly grated sharp cheddar, and 5 oz. freshly grated Gruyere and 1/2 pound of cooked and drained elbow macaroni.  Topped with Parmesan and Panko.  Gruyere was probably not the best choice; it was milder than I like but my husband liked it better than boxed. Next time I'll experiment with different cheeses.  The cheeses did not separate.  This was a lot more expensive than boxed.  The cheeses alone cost over $13.00.

Lily


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Lilygardener said:


> I did it. Simple bechamel with 3 Tb. flour, 3 Tb. butter, 1 1/2 cups skim milk (what I had on hand) and 1 1/2 cups heavy cream (to make up for the skim milk). 5 oz. freshly grated sharp cheddar, and 5 oz. freshly grated Gruyere and 1/2 pound of cooked and drained elbow macaroni. Topped with Parmesan and Panko. Gruyere was probably not the best choice; it was milder than I like but my husband liked it better than boxed. Next time I'll experiment with different cheeses. The cheeses did not separate. This was a lot more expensive than boxed. The cheeses alone cost over $13.00.
> 
> Lily


There are cases where eating at home can be more expensive than eating out and this is one of those instances! Good cheese is costly and restaurants get the benefit of buying ingredients at wholesale. It costs me way more money to make a pizza or fried chicken or burgers than to order them, simply because I buy quality ingredients. C'est la vie.

What didn't you like about the gruyere? The combination we've settled on as our favorite in this house is equal parts cheddar, colby and jack. The mildness needs a little something to kick it up a little doesn't it? I like to finely grate a half onion and sweat it in the butter before adding the flour for the roux. I also add dried thyme, a little paprika and a good bit of dried mustard which is what gives the cheese a little zing. I also add a tiny bit of grated of nutmeg. Sometimes I add bacon!


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

koukouvia,

I like all your suggestions of additional ingredients for the mac and cheeses. I've added your suggestions to my Basic Recipe and filed it for next time. I wanted to keep it simple this time to see if I could keep the cheeses from breaking and find a good basic recipe. If I had added the aromatic onions and herbs you used, the Gruyere may not have made the dish seem bland. I did use chefbuba's topping of Parmesan and Panko, and enjoyed that.

I may have to cut the recipe in half next time. A half pound of dry pasta is a lot for the two of us to eat in a couple of days (after a maximum of two days, my husband gets bored with leftovers and I have to throw them out)..

The one extra I did put in the dish and did not mention is nutmeg; I always add it to a Bechamel. It is subtle but makes a difference in the richness, or rather the depth, of the sauce to me. Being from New Orleans, I've been slathering lots of veggies in Bechamel since I was a very young cook. Oddly enough, I have rarely added cheese.

I'll let you know what ingredients I try next time I make Mac & Cheese. Sounds like you make it frequently; I may reserve it for a once every month or once every other month treat; it's not just the cost, but the calories. I do have that daughter getting married, maybe in August, if she and her fiancee ever find the venue they want and can set the date for sure. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif

Lily


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I put nutmeg too, I love the aroma it adds to the bechamel. I don't make it often but when I do it's a real treat comfort food for me because Hubby doesn't like creamy sauces much. Once your have your basic cheese sauce down then adding other ingredients becomes fun and experimental. Personally I like to eat it straight from the stove top but for company I always bake it with breadcrumbs or Panko and parm. And a little paprika on top too.


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## laurenlulu (Sep 9, 2012)

I also add a little nutmeg when making a bechemel for cheese sauce and I'm also fro the New Orleans area.. Could that be a regional thing? I rennet reading that cornstarch is added by manufacturers to shredded cheese to keep the shreds separated. I reaffirm that excess heat will break a cheese sauce.

As an aside I also add a little almond extract to cream cheese frosting which I think is also a regional thing. I made it this way in New England and they were perplexed.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Lulu,

Don't know if nutmeg in Bechamel (what we home cooks in N.O. called white sauce) is regional or not; I think Julia Child uses it and that may be where my habit of adding it started, but it is so long ago that I do not remember how or why I picked up the habit. 

I do know this; I learned to cook basic dishes after I moved away from home by my phoning my mother's cook (I've said in another post that back in the 1950s and 1960s every middle class family had servants), but she was not trained in French cooking and we never had a white sauce on anything. She was a good cook but cooked what she had learned at her mother's knees.

I know now that my Grandmother and Great Aunt, in whose home I  spent my first 6 years,used such sauces, but they did not teach me to cook, so I did not learn it there. My origins of using nutmeg in Bechamel will probably always remain a mystery.

Lily


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

koukpuvagia,

I think I will still have to improve my basic cheese sauce.  I noticed that on the second day in the refrigerator the sauce exuded some grease (?).  I think that was because I used a good quality Gruyere but Kraft sharp Cheddar.  Next time I will purchase both from the deli case and specify Boars Head. The Gruyere was Boars Head but they only had smoked in the Deli case, the were out of the regular and I was afraid to mess up the dish with smoked (an unknown). I use the shrink wrapped Gruyere.  Next time both fresh from the Deli case or some other kinds of cheeses.

Lily


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

When reheated the next day creamy sauces will split, especially if you nuke it. It's not your fault. I actually don't know how to reheat a Mac n cheese without splitting the sauce, maybe someone else can help us out on that. 

The better the cheese the better the flavor of course. If you can find Cabot cheddar i think it's the best of the low end cheddars. 

Adding nutmeg to bechamel is a long standing Italian tradition but I could be wrong.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Koukouvagia,

As usual you are correct:  nutmeg in Bechamel is a long standing Italian tradition according to the Internet.  Also, in Mastering the Art of French Cooking, Julia Child does not mention nutmeg in the basic Bechamel or Veloute sauces; it is not included until she give the recipe for Mornay sauce..  Where I picked up the nutmeg habit remains a mystery; no one in my family is even remotely connected to Italy. We are French, Irish, and German.  I must have picked it up when preparing Shrimp Alfredo or something similar as a young married woman. I can't think of anything Italian I have ever made except Alfredo using a Bechamel. Besides spaghetti and meatballs or meat sauce and Alfredo, I really don't cook Italian. 

When I thought back to laurenlulu's post earlier in this thread, the mystery may be solved.  Adding nutmeg is something we in New Orleans do.  Go figure. The French and Spanish influences in cooking were predominant when I was growing up. I did read that the French appropriated Bechamel from the Italians. We probably appropriated the nutmeg too.

Not that it is important, but one of my ancient college professors, from many, many years ago, did his thesis about how the same nationalities settled in both New York and New Orleans, which may explain the similar accents the two cities share.  There were five primarily national groups.  I don't know if I remember that ancient history, but besides French and Spanish were Irish, German, and (what?), maybe Italian.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I don't do it very often, practically never, as such it is not my forte; but I don't ever recall having a problem reheating a roux based cream sauce, mornay included. The caterer I presently work for has a storefront deli operation with Mac & Cheese appearing quite frequently. Many times the bechamel is made one day, the Mac & Cheese the next.

What is exactly your procedure for bechamel? Which actually, as far as I know was invented by the Italians (yes nutmeg) and borrowed by the French (nutmeg, not so much).


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

cheflayne said:


> for bechamel? Which actually, as far as I know was invented by the Italians (yes nutmeg) and borrowed by the French (nutmeg, not so much).


Just saw your post about origins of bechamel, Lilygardener. Sorry not trying to one up you or steal your thunder, it wasn't there when I started but I just type sllooowwww.

Give me an onion and I can got town town; a keyboard, not so much.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Not sure if you were asking me or koukouvagia about our procedure for bechamel.  In case it is me, I melt the butter, incorporate the flour, nutmeg, and salt, and cook slowly for a couple of minutes. I then add the milk and stir until thickened as I want it.

 The sauce I made for the mac & cheese seemed very thin to me (3 T. butter and 3 Tb. flour to 3 cups of liquid, and 10 oz. of cheese) but I think the cheese thickened it a lot.  I got the proportions from Alton Brown's recipe I believe.  I looked at a lot of them and there was a big variety of opinions.

My final product was good but a little soupy and I did not use all the sauce I made.  I probably discarded at least a half to a full cup of the sauce because it was looking too thin.  

I am just beginning to experiment with more scratch cooking.  I have been a rather busy working woman and mom and when I retired I immediately began studying a subject in which I was interest at a local university.  Now I'm ready to cook.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Lilygardener said:


> The sauce I made for the mac & cheese seemed very thin to me (3 T. butter and 3 Tb. flour to 3 cups of liquid, and 10 oz. of cheese)


The reason your sauce was a little thin was due to the roux. It was the right amount of roux for the amount of liquid and the ratio of fat to flour should be 1 to 1 as you did, but it should be done by weight not volume. 3 Tablespoons of flour weighs about half as much as 3 Tablespoons of butter. Next time try it with 3 Tablespoons of butter and 5 to 6 Tablespoons of flour. Also cook the roux on as low of a heat as you can, so that it stays blond. Cook and stir for 5 minutes to eliminate the raw flour taste, then add your milk. Bring it up to temp and it should thicken nicely.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Thank you cheflayne,

I have always calculated by volume as most instructions say to do, and cooked the raw flour and butter for @ 2 minutes, which is the standard. as far as I know, in home cookbooks. Now I will try something different.  Thank you.

Lily


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

The original query about adding corn starch can be useful, as in this recipe which has been posted before on Cheftalk, as I recall.

http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/09/cheese-sauce-for-cheese-fries-and-nachos.html

And it is preferred to grate it yourself, store bought bags of shredded, grated, etc. may have added components to keep the cheese from clumping.

mjb.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

teamfat,

I gratedthe cheese myself.  The sharp cheddar cheese I used, Kraft, shrink-wrapped from the supermarket, may be what caused a slight oily residue in the bottom of the casserole.  Next time I will get all the cheeses I use from the Deli case and be sure it is Boars head so I can test to see if that highly touted brand makes a difference.

I also have ordered and received sodium citrate from Amazon.  My plan is to divide my recipe into three portions and make one without an amendment, one with cornstarch, and one with the sodium citrate. However, it is going to be a while before I do this very fattening recipe again.  I made an amount that included 1/2 pound of macaroni and it was way to much for two people.  As predicted, my husband lost interest in it as a leftover after the second day in the fridge.  I hate to do it, but I will probably end up throwing it out: I absolutely refuse to eat it all myself, and we have no pets.

By the way, that recipe for cheese sauce from Serious Eats looks amazing.  I now will have to prepare some decadent dish from that site, probably Barbecued Shrimp.  I have eaten Barbecued Shrimp at Manales Restaurant in New Orleans several times and have never found a recipe that equals it.  I can taste it now, there is nothing like it. I keep hoping I find the right recipe for it somewhere.

Lily.


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

*"...that recipe for cheese sauce from Serious Eats looks amazing. "*

Serious eats is, indeed, a seriously good foodie site. With CT it is my other go-to site for food and cooking.

Mike


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

Lilygardener said:


> Heard recently that if corn starch is added to shredded cheese before adding it to a mac and cheese recipe, it stabilizes the cheese and helps prevent it from breaking. Does anyone know if this is true?
> 
> Made some crock pot mac and cheese according to a friends directions (I actually ate hers and it was not broken and was delicious): mine was a broken mess.
> 
> Lily


Don't do it. I worked at a place that did that and it adds a taste and grit if you aren't careful. All it does is soak up the grease and adds a weird texture or flavor. If you stir it enough throughout cooking on a lower heat, and let it rest after a good stir (unless you want that delicious crust), you shouldn't have a problem. Also, don't rinse the macaroni. Leave the starches on there for when you mix it all up so the mac soaks up more oil.


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## lilygardener (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks mckallidon,

I actually bought some sodium citrate to use if I plan to use a lot of cheese.  But cutting the cheese to 10 ounces for 1/2 pound of macaroni worked for me last time. I will reduce the macaroni to 1/4 pound next time and 5 oz. cheese.  1/2 pound is too much macaroni for two people to eat in a reasonable amount of time. 

Lily


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Chef Layne is on the money. The other thing you should know is that most of the macaroni and cheese commercial products is made from powdered cheese and whey powder.   And I always add a pinch of Nutmeg to Béchamel Sauce> When I served my apprenticeship in Europe that's the way I was taught(over 50 years ago)


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## mckallidon (Feb 14, 2015)

Lilygardener said:


> Thanks mckallidon,
> 
> I actually bought some sodium citrate to use if I plan to use a lot of cheese. But cutting the cheese to 10 ounces for 1/2 pound of macaroni worked for me last time. I will reduce the macaroni to 1/4 pound next time and 5 oz. cheese. 1/2 pound is too much macaroni for two people to eat in a reasonable amount of time.
> 
> Lily


Okay cool. That sounds about right. I used to just eyeball it. 


chefedb said:


> Chef Layne is on the money. The other thing you should know is that most of the macaroni and cheese commercial products is made from powdered cheese and whey powder. And I always add a pinch of Nutmeg to Béchamel Sauce> When I served my apprenticeship in Europe that's the way I was taught(over 50 years ago)


Chef Layne knows his stuff. He's posted some good intel.


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