# Which stones or "system" for beginner to sharpen Hattori HD and Kagayaki VG-10?



## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks to those who chimed in on my Katana handle thread.

As noted in there, I've ordered the Hattori HD 240mm Gyuto and Kagayaki VG-10 150mm Petty. In terms of keeping them sharp, to put it bluntly (hardy har!),  I don't want to screw them up. I'm an absolute and complete neophyte in this field - I've never sharpened anything. Cooking is basically the extent of "working with my hands" for me. I'm no hobbyist, "toolie", or even all that handy. I'm a self-employed lawyer who loves to cook who wants good quality sharp knives and who doesn't want to screw up a relatively expensive new purchase.

So, that being said, I'd like to try very hard to take care of these lovely new blades. I do have some older knives that I can work on first to learn the basic skills.

My sources for stones/systems in Vancouver will probably be e-tailer order or locally at "House of Knives" where they would recommend the Shun 1000/6000 combo stone for $125 CAD...or $80 on Amazon. Elsewhere brick and mortar wise? No idea...Paul's Finest has a collection of Naniwa SS and Chosera stones, as well as Wusthof and the Edge Pro system.

Cost-wise, it appears that the Edge Pro Apex #3 and #4 come in at between $230 - $260 CAD (jives pretty close to CKTG pricing). The stone grits are up to 1000, which Paul says is about equivalent to 3000 in the Japanese stones and then the #4 comes with additional higher grit "polish tapes" that attach to an aluminum plate, so I assume they're limited in the number of times they can be used.

Paul also sells the Naniwa SS in a 3 pack on sale for $175 (400, 1000, 5000 with a free guide) or the Chosera in the same grits for $256 (and they also come with the guide and Nagura 600grit mud/slurry/cleaning stones...whatever those are).

Aside from having more "control" and being more of a "purist" - is there any advantage to spending almost the same amount of money on the Naniwa stones?

Am I less likely to ruin the Damascus look of my HD if I use the Apex? (I've read a number of comments from freehanders about scratching the Damascus, which is something that I'm a bit scared of...from an aesthetic standpoint - it's like scratching your new BMW and saying "eh, it still drives the same"). If I do use the Apex, will I be able to achieve a similar level of success with getting truly sharp blades?

Alternatively, is it more reasonable to open it up to ordering a different (i.e. more value oriented i.e. cheaper) set of stones from CKTG or another e-tailer and going the freehand route that way? If so, based on these knives, what would you recommend?

Note that I also intend on getting an Idahone ceramic rod (not sure which one, but I assume it should be the "fine" one) for regular maintenance.

Finally, for perspective, I really don't mind learning how to freehand sharpen but I also don't feel like it's a driving force or something that I "need" to do as I really only have so much free time (and that's not much, if that helps put it into perspective). But I am completely willing.

Okay, I think I gave all of the relevant information. Given the above, I'd really appreciate any thoughts anyone might have. Thanks!


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Okay, I've just ordered an additional Tojiro DP Damascus Santoku (165mm), Forschner 10" bread + 4 paring knives, and the Idahone rod.

Given the above purchase (basically having spent nearly $500 on knives in two days), I'm leaning further towards freehanding with stones to save more than a few bucks. I'd still do the Apex if that was going to be better for me, but it is a pretty pricey route. That being said, I don't want to eff up my lovely new knives and, if that's likely, I'd rather spend the extra cash on the Apex.

I guess it just depends on what you guys recommend for stones for my situation and the knives mentioned.

Thanks in advance!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you aren't already a good freehand sharpener, an EP Apex will be much quicker and somewhat less stressful to learn. In your case, for your knives, it's at least as good for your knives. No need to worry about scratching either. Less risk with an EP than with freehand. I can't tell you what to choose, but from what you've written about yourself I think you'd be happier with an EP than going for months and months obsessing over learning about stones, and whether or not you made the right purchase.

The Idahone, a 12" fine (aka "1200") was a great choice. None better.

If you're really worried about scratching the patterns on the faces of your knives, return the knives and get something you don't care as much about. Knives are tools, and you should be comfortable about using them that way; and the soft stainless used to make san-mai patterns scratches. Even if you don't scratch them in use or sharpening, someone will eventually scour them. Or something. It's always something.

If you do decide to go with stones, I suggest learning to sharpen according to something I call the "burr method." There's lots of sharpening information about a variety of different, and equally good techniques, but the burr method is the easiest for the beginner to see and feel the "metrics" of progress. The best place to start learning is probably Chad Ward's FAQ on e-Gullet or his book, _An Edge in the Kitchen_.

I keep threatening to write a pamphlet, and it looks that will actually happen sometime in the very near future.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks BDL. Your thoughts are appreciated, as you've heard before. 

Do you have a recommendation as to which Apex kit (or beginner stones) based on these knives?

And yes, I do realize tools get scratched - I just don't want to hurry it along.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You're a Deputy DA?  I used to be one.

Kit 3 is good enough.  If you can work out how to get it across the border without exercising too much interest from Canadian Customs, you might be interested in the EP/Chosera kit from CKtG.

Speaking of CKtG... In the interests of disclosure, CKtG and I are discussing a commercial relationship.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Ah, I appreciate your "full disclosure." I've also developed a commercial relationship with CKTG in that I ordered all of those most recent knives from them, in the interests of commerce. 

The Chosera kit is currently sold out but I think I might just start with Kit 3 and add a variety of stones later as things progress. I will check with CKTG to see about future stock of that kit (as I believe it may just be one stone missing).

Thanks again, very very much - your knowledge in this area is phenomenal (assuming you're not just completely full of shit and judging by the various threads here, you'd have been soundly discredited by now if that were the case). I, for one, greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise on a variety of topics on these forums. The patience that you must painfully (on occasion at least) exert in order to answer the same questions that all of us without any knowledge or real understanding of the subject demand is amazing. I know from many years on many forums that "newbie" questions can be painfully repetitive; however, we all believe that our circumstances are somehow unique and deserve individual attention. The fact that you give that attention freely is straight class. I do, partially, blame you, though. Given that your posts often request specific information in order to give specific guidance (naturally, this is required), we all feel special! In all seriousness, the time you take to devote to individual inquiries is very much appreciated. 

I'm definitely not a Deputy DA (technically, we don't have DAs up here, but "Crown Counsel" - and I'm not one of those, either). It's a nickname from a trip t o Europe back in '03 where my tour guide kept calling me Deputy because I was always the go-to guy for an answer to questions that he didn't know. This was the net result of most of the tour participants being in the 18-23 year old range and I was of the grand age of 25 with a degree, work experience, and more than half a brain compared to the youthful and mind-numbing experience of the constantly drunk Australian teenagers that populated the majority of the bus.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Well, I manned up and ordered the Chosera three pack from Paul's Finest. $300 after tax and shipping takes me up to...oi...$870 on knives/related in a week. Long term investment, so I'm happy.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Deputy said:


> Well, I manned up and ordered the Chosera three pack from Paul's Finest. $300 after tax and shipping takes me up to...oi...$870 on knives/related in a week. Long term investment, so I'm happy.


I am at a loss for words lmfao.

Welcome to the wonderful word of Japanese cutlery 

Seriously you made some great choices that you should really enjoy.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Hah, yeah, I'm a bit nuts, Lenny. Trying VERY hard to resist buying the Moritaka 270 Suji from Paul. He highly recommends it as a top notch suji for the price.

http://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritaka...fe-270mm-10.6-Aogami-Blue-2-Carbon-Steel.html

Not sure I want to deal with carbon (I know it's common sense and if I had it I'd probably just do it because I had to, but I'm not sure I want to).

Why, oh why, am I cursed with this addictive personality?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I have not seen anyone post it lately but this can be a bit addictive and a dangerous hobby for those who tend to be a bit compulsive lol.

I tried my best to resist buying anything expensive for a while, and talked myself out of that Hattori and the FH as well only to end up with a even more expensive Konosuke during a moment of weakness lmao

Still been able to resist higher priced stones so far, but the curiosity of them may end up pushing me over the edge eventually.

Guess you could justify the Moritaka based on how deep you in already, or wait a little so you can create a better opinion on what you like from spending some time with your current ones etc. I like and went this route and am glad I did since it lead me to the konosuke.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeah, I'm not in a rush, I don't use my slicer enough these days to warrant it just yet. I'd also be hard pressed to pick the Moritaka over the Hattori FH-13C (270 with cocobolo handle) from JCK because they're over the top gorgeous and a nice thin blade that I think I'd enjoy in a slicer. Regardless,no hurry!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Deputy said:


> Yeah, I'm not in a rush, I don't use my slicer enough these days to warrant it just yet. I'd also be hard pressed to pick the Moritaka over the Hattori FH-13C (270 with cocobolo handle) from JCK because they're over the top gorgeous and a nice thin blade that I think I'd enjoy in a slicer. Regardless,no hurry!


I still find myself checking out various sujihiki and even comparing to a couple yanagiba etc as I think some kind of thin and short slicer may be in my future, but still a bit far enough that I will have time to figure it out (suji makes more sense but something about the chisel edge that just intrigues me).

Got to love the FH line, and the 240 FH and also the HD you have and the 270 suji your considering were all on my wish list (only the suji remains for now) not too long ago. I still may find my way to a FH suji someday as those are very nice looking, and seemingly well regarded performers by their owners.

Also if you like the FH series you have to take a look at the KH as they are thought to be works of art by many, but be forewarned they will literally eat your pocket as they are far from being affordable. Then again I have seen much more expensive stuff out there too so maybe they are a bargain to some 

Since were on the Hattori subject I almost became the owner of a nice set of five (sm and lg petty, gyuto, suji, and santoku) that were on eBay last year but someone out bid me by a hair in the end. Was too bad though as the whole lot was just a little less than the gyuto and suji from JCK. Was complaining about that one for a week lol.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

That's a tough loss...damn snipers.

Do you mean the Hattori KD? I haven't seen a KH. JCK's website isn't exactly...nicely organized...so I might have missed it.

I'm definitely digging my HD, though...it's a beauty to operate in the kitchen, so far. I can't wait until it's REALLY sharp.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Deputy said:


> That's a tough loss...damn snipers.
> 
> Do you mean the Hattori KD? I haven't seen a KH. JCK's website isn't exactly...nicely organized...so I might have missed it.
> 
> I'm definitely digging my HD, though...it's a beauty to operate in the kitchen, so far. I can't wait until it's REALLY sharp.


My bad on the KH as it is really FH oops 

KD is just different to me as it seems to combine a more high tech core blade material with a more unusual damascus pattern and can be found here http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't think Hattori makes the KD anymore, nor that anyone's still using CowryX.  If Hattori does, they're probably still filling orders from four or five years ago.  And if anyone's still using CowrX, the alloy is VERY expensive and even more chip probe and otherwise problematic; stay away.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

No worries there. I have financial priorities over $1400 knifes! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> I don't think Hattori makes the KD anymore, nor that anyone's still using CowryX. If Hattori does, they're probably still filling orders from four or five years ago. And if anyone's still using CowrX, the alloy is VERY expensive and even more chip probe and otherwise problematic; stay away.
> 
> BDL


Apologies in advance to any too thin skinned etc. But your description reminded me of a high maintenance woman lol. Still beautiful even if a "little chippy " 

Seriously though I think its a shame if they dropped them if they actually did as it looked to be a very unusual, well made, and elegant product.

Do you have any idea of there are plans to update with a more appropriate core steel?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

"High maintenance but worth it," might not be inapt.

As far as I know the real issue is that what made them special was that each knife was hand made by Hattori-san himself -- or at least had a significant amount of his hand labor; and that for reasons of health and age he doesn't do that kind of work anymore -- or at least darn little of it.  Also "hand made by Hattori-san" doesn't mean he did the pattern welding.  I believe Hattori bought the pattern welded jigane ready made. 

I know three people who had KDs and all of them had issues with chipping, all loved their KDs and all moved them on regretfully to finance other knife projects.  To my mind the fact that they all three sold his is compelling.  That aside, the knives were certainly beautiful and excellent cutters.  Whether any knife is worth what a KD would cost now, as a tool, is arguable.  You can buy other knives as uber-zoot and just as beautiful as a KD if you have the desire and the credit.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I understand your points, and all make good sense.

What I really think made them just that little bit more special than some of the many other "knives as uber-zoot and just as beautiful as a KD"   was just like you said "each knife was hand made by Hattori-san himself".

Plus there is no way of knowing just how long that will even be possible though I wish for him to continue for a long time etc.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

What a great day! Naniwa Chosera stones (400, 1000, 5000) all showed up today. Have to get working on some old knives (as soon as I finish marking these stupid exams....) to see how things can go.

I wonder how sharp I can make a Farberware 5" santoku...


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

LOL My wife refuses to let me throw out the last of our wedding-gifted Farberware knives (a small apring knife)! It could be the dullest knife ever, but she insists it's "fine." I still use the cheap block that used to house the set, but it, too, will be history with the arrival of my first (real) Japanese knife in a couple of weeks. While any good block nowadays has horizontal slots (as opposed to the vertical ones in cheap sets' blocks), I have my eyes on the Wüsthof under-cabinet block.

BOT: Nice stones, Deputy!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

SameGuy said:


> LOL My wife refuses to let me throw out the last of our wedding-gifted Farberware knives (a small apring knife)! It could be the dullest knife ever, but she insists it's "fine." I still use the cheap block that used to house the set, but it, too, will be history with the arrival of my first (real) Japanese knife in a couple of weeks. While any good block nowadays has horizontal slots (as opposed to the vertical ones in cheap sets' blocks), I have my eyes on the Wüsthof under-cabinet block.
> 
> BOT: Nice stones, Deputy!


It is sort of funny that I never really got into knife blocks, and the only one or style that really ever caught my attention was the magnetic ones with the wood exterior. Too bad I do not have a place for these as they look like a very practical and handy way to store your knives.

Also the block that I have on the counter (which none of the better knives go in) was under $5 and does have the horizontal slots. It was a steal since it was like new (maybe even never used) and I picked it up at one of the odd shops I seem to be dragged into by the wife.

Not sure where the in drawer one came from as I have had it a long time, but it has been a great way to keep the better cutlery separated from the stuff you do not really care about. Still wish I had a good spot for one of the magnetic types.

Curious if anyone else has thoughts on or even does keep their different knives separated from each other, and if so what is the thinking behind it?

My thinking is to protect the knives as well as those who may use them.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

SG - That under-cab block looks pretty rad if you've got a good place for it (I don't, or it would have been a nice option). As to the Farberware, I bought her that little knife five years ago when I was just getting into cooking more in-depth and she loved it but it's SO dull now, it's not even funny. It'll be the first one I work on sharpening, I think. We'll see how it goes...it'll probably need the 400 grit...

Lenny - those magnetic/wooden blocks do look nice (you mean, this, right



You're right though, the drawer block is where it's at. It just keeps the "good stuff" nicely out of sight, prevents exposure to nastiness (grease from the stove, etc), keeps my wife away from stuff she won't care for as carefully (she's not a big one for cooking and doesn't really think something is practical if it requires an over-strict care regime). I think it's like anything - you might have a crappy TV in the kid's playroom (if you were inclined to contribute to overpopulation) and a nice one in the living room. Keep the good stuff in good condition and the rest, let the work use 'em.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The drawer blocks are okay, but rest the knives on their edges.. which isn't ideal.  Just try and be careful when you put a knife in or take it out, not to push or draw it over the wood with any force. We use a drawer block for most of our knives; but keep the really good ones in sayas in a separate drawer.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks BDL - I'll be gentle and may even get sayas for the good knives...just to be safe. And because they look cool...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

As you can probably guess I wasn't a big fan of the Hattori KDs. I always considered them overpriced, but that's personal aesthetic more than anything else. Anyway, when it comes to celebrity knife makers, Hattori-san isn't the only one; there's Doi and Shigefusa to name just two of many others. On top of that, several of the top line, semi-custom makers' highest-end knives are every bit as much masterpieces as anything Hattori made; Tadatsuna's Best "Honyaki" is a good example.

I'm not much of a guide on this subject. Jon knows more, and can help you with this stuff a billion times better than me; if you're interested you should call him. Phaedrus knows a lot more about it too; PM him.

Some people love the ultimate, Japanese-craftsman thing, and others -- like me -- are less impressed by it. More, even if I could afford it without blinking I'd never pay that kind of money for a kitchen knife. I like my tools to be tools -- nice tools, yes; but objects which exist to change the forms of other objects and not as objects to revere. Please don't take that opinion as a judgment on people who feel differently, it isn't.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

I dunno BDL, I think I want something a bit more exclusive than those knives you posted...they look a little too "common man" for my tastes... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Seriously though, I don't see myself every buying a knife like that unless I win a really big jackpot. And even then...why would you?? That's just to show off and I don't care that much about that. I like my stuff (including my tools) to look decent, but I can be just as happy with something inexpensive, as long as it does a good job. It's similar to how I don't understand silliness like expensive women's designer handbags. Is it really doing a better job of carrying your money? In fact, I'd argue it's doing a worse job as it's ensuring that you have no money to carry!


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Well, I skipped out on marking exams and hit the stones today with three knives...the old Farberware 5" santoku, my old "CHEF" brand 7" santoku, and my old 9" Charles Meniere chef's knife (in that order).

Some preliminary thoughts:

- keeping an angle, 85% of the time, isn't the hard part - I used the magic marker on the third knife and I seemed to have done a good job of removing it fairly quickly

- forming a burr on these particular knives seems to be difficult...either my technique/angles are worse than I think, or the steel stinks or I don't really know what I'm feeling as there was something there, but not much, and not always

- sharpening is messy'ish work - I can see why people like things like the sink bridges

They're all sharper than they were but none of them are very sharp. I didn't use the 400 with the 9" but did use it on the other two and I think it helped as they were both PRETTY dull. 

I have to do some sharpening reading but will get it figured out, I'm sure.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Deputy said:


> SG - That under-cab block looks pretty rad if you've got a good place for it (I don't, or it would have been a nice option). As to the Farberware, I bought her that little knife five years ago when I was just getting into cooking more in-depth and she loved it but it's SO dull now, it's not even funny. It'll be the first one I work on sharpening, I think. We'll see how it goes...it'll probably need the 400 grit...
> 
> Lenny - those magnetic/wooden blocks do look nice (you mean, this, right
> 
> ...


Actually I am kind of liking that design though it is the first I have seen it.

The one I was talking about is approx 2" x 12" strip that attaches to the wall or side of a cabinet etc.

Also I had a good laugh from "doesn't really think something is practical if it requires an over-strict care regime" as I do feel your pain 

Not sure we want to get into my thoughts on TV's or even enough of them and various other electronic equipment to start a retail store lol. But I do agree with your logic unless of course there is a desire to spend another few thousand on additional bunch of imported third word junk 

Judging by some friends, family, and associates there is just no limit to how many 40"+ flat screens one can have, but most also rate their success in life by the head count, and how much they waste every month on a lease payment for a vehicle they could otherwise never have afforded. Oh well enough on that for now lol.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> The drawer blocks are okay, but rest the knives on their edges.. which isn't ideal. Just try and be careful when you put a knife in or take it out, not to push or draw it over the wood with any force. We use a drawer block for most of our knives; but keep the really good ones in sayas in a separate drawer.
> 
> BDL


I had actually though about adding a saya for my Konosuke, but decided against it based on extra cost that adds nothing to the performance of the knife, and also that I really never take them from the kitchen. I would most likely have said yes to the idea if I had traveled with my knives, but than also would have considered edge guards and roll too.

Please let me know if I am missing something in the following, but I am thinking that placing or even sliding your knife carefully into a drawer block that is made of a softer material (wood) than any cutting board I have ever used including my current edge grain board just is not a concern at all. If anything what I have noticed to be a down side is that when putting a thicker blade into a thinner slot etc the oils of the wood or stain used on it can transfer to the side of the blade causing a light stain. It is really not an issue for real since it is just an oil etc, but except for taking up space in a drawer (which can be more an issue to those with limited cabinet space etc) I really do not see any down side.

Actually a friend had pointed out an interesting observation about how, but though unlikely but possible just how dangerous a block full of knives could become during a home invasion. Never really thought about that before, but it is interesting to consider that in the odd chance you were to return home to find some addict or ? had broken in and is now six feet away from you, nervous to flee etc, and next to your knife block, well it could get ugly.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Some people love the ultimate, Japanese-craftsman thing, and others -- like me -- are less impressed by it. More, even if I could afford it without blinking I'd never pay that kind of money for a kitchen knife. I like my tools to be tools -- nice tools, yes; but objects which exist to change the forms of other objects and not as objects to revere. Please don't take that opinion as a judgment on people who feel differently, it isn't.


I think this is part of why I (and likely many others as well) have found your posts and comments helpful.

It is really just a practical approach, and though I know appearance has a place in everyone's decision process for most it seems it is not topping the needs list.

I enjoy quality, obscurity, and uniqueness, and even nostalgia as well, and have enjoyed the many examples I have seen on the various forums etc, but I expect there to be no better chance of seeing a $6000 knife in my kitchen than an original Picasso on the wall in my living room 

Beautiful yes, but practical?


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

It is sufficient to say that I suck at sharpening. I think my HD is duller.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Be patient. Use the "burr method" described by Chad Ward in the e-Gullet FAQ. For your first few outings use the Magic Marker Trick.

If you're using new stones, they need to be lapped and beveled using. Quite a few new stones won't work at all without a preliminary lapping to loosen the surface. Beveling is also very important -- but for a different reason. Many stones are very weak at the edges and corners and will tend to break, crumble or gouge easily without preliminary beveling.

FWIW, beveling should be an every-time part of your flattening.

I forget if you're the one using DMT diamond stones or not. Be aware that they wear out quickly, and your new knife might have arrived one sharpening too late. The DMTs with the holes are much better for shorter blades than for kitchen knives; and other than for flattening other stones, and for fast, coarse work, diamond stones aren't the best choice for most sharpeners anyway.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes, I have to review An Edge in the Kitchen and the EG FAQ again.

I'm doing well with the marker, every time I use it, the mark disappears very quickly, so I feel like the angle is good. Maybe I'm just not going long enough to get the burr. 

Stones are in good shape - Choseras 400, 1000, 5000 (not DMT) - and are beveled. 

Just need to practice, I'm pretty sure of it.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Deputy said:


> Yes, I have to review An Edge in the Kitchen and the EG FAQ again.
> 
> I'm doing well with the marker, every time I use it, the mark disappears very quickly, so I feel like the angle is good. Maybe I'm just not going long enough to get the burr.
> 
> ...


I do not remember my first attempts at sharpening too clearly as it was just too long ago, but I do know that I had my share of problems, reducing sharpness, and just not getting the results I had expected.

Then after getting my first couple waterstones it sort of was new all over again as they are very different than any of the old norton combo stones or wet dry sand paper I had used in the past.

Trust me on this, your not alone with finding a little frustration 

Few questions, and thoughts.

Which stones are you using now?

I ask because you really want to be using the 1000 at first because the 400 is just too aggressive for what your doing, and the 5000 is just an open opportunity to mess up what you did on the 1000 until you really get your skills set etc. I am one of those who would have to mess with that 5000, and have messed up a good edge trying to polish it in the past lol. It is a learning curve etc.

Chasing the burr is a fine way to get to your desired result, but you have to be able to feel the burr properly, and across the entire length of the blade. I have to admit it was a lot easier finding the burr on my old knives as opposed to my J knives as it was larger and more obvious. So take your time, double check, check again, and oh be careful because a fine burr or wire can be extremely sharp too.

Are you sectioning the blade (sharpening one small part at a time that is similar in width to the stone) or sharpening the whole length at once in a sweeping motion? I believe sectioning is a better choice for new sharpeners as it allows one to have more control over the angle and like most things it also allows to make things a bit less complicated by breaking it down into small steps. I know both ways have their advantages, and I do use both myself too but sectioning just seems to make things easier at first.

A thought on that magic marker is to understand the idea is to show you what the relationship between the knifes edge angle and the one your holding when sharpening. If you are able to hold the same angle most all of the time then the amount of strokes before you check for what has been removed is not such a big deal, but if your not sure or are not holding it steady etc then try to make one forward and one reverse or draw stroke and then check it. This should give you a more accurate reading on just where and at what angle your removing the metal.

Also try to view some of the vids again as it should help to reinforce what you learned previously while also making more sense the more you learn etc.

And do not worry you will get the hang of it


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I'll re-emphasize Lenny's point that you must check what you're doing really often. At the beginning REALLY often, magic marker or no. But know what you're looking for. You can remove all the magic marker with really inconsistent angles and lots of wobble if you just don't bother checking till it's gone!


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Wagstaff said:


> You can remove all the magic marker with really inconsistent angles and lots of wobble if you just don't bother checking till it's gone!


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif

That might have been an issue. I should give it another try this weekend.

Thank you both for your thoughts - I'll definitely review and practice a bit more. I'm going to do some angle measuring as well - fairly simple with a protractor on hand. Just to make sure.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Which stones are you using now?
> 
> I ask because you really want to be using the 1000 at first because the 400 is just too aggressive for what your doing, and the 5000 is just an open opportunity to mess up what you did on the 1000 until you really get your skills set etc. I am one of those who would have to mess with that 5000, and have messed up a good edge trying to polish it in the past lol. It is a learning curve etc.
> 
> Are you sectioning the blade (sharpening one small part at a time that is similar in width to the stone) or sharpening the whole length at once in a sweeping motion? I believe sectioning is a better choice for new sharpeners as it allows one to have more control over the angle and like most things it also allows to make things a bit less complicated by breaking it down into small steps. I know both ways have their advantages, and I do use both myself too but sectioning just seems to make things easier at first.


I've used all of the stones on my junker knives (figured if I'm trying to get something sharp, might as well use the 400 and learn to use it there as they were pretty dull and surely needed some grinding) and only used the 1k/5k on the HD. No need for the 400 there yet, I don't think. I didn't think the 5000 would mess anything up but maybe I'm missing something...?

I've tried some sectional (on the HD for example) and some more "holistic" sharpening. I think I'm liking this method, though: 



 (if a bit overzealous for a home cook).


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

I've just realized that there's a Lee Valley about 5 minutes from my house. I checked the catalogue and they sell the DMT stones for what appears to be a very reasonable price (~$45). I might look at that in order to get a flattening stone (although, if I follow Murray Carter's advice, it's not as necessary as most seem to think...odd, a bit).

Looks like they also have a version of the Angle Cube (the Tilt Box II). Nice.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you're going to use a DMT dla-sharp flattening Stone, don't bother with anything other than than the 120#, 8X3 XXC which Lee Valley sells for $74. If you're thinking of a less aggressive plate, or something smaller, you might as well stick with drywall screen.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Saw that a bit later. Drywall it is.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Well, I'm giving up on stones. I just don't have enough time to practice regularly to be "good" enough at it so I'm going with the Apex. 

Anyone want to buy some Choseras used only 3 times? 

I knew I should have gone with the gadget in the first place...


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## gavination (Nov 25, 2012)

Sorry to hear you had problems with sharpening.  I'm just starting off myself, and I'm hoping I have time as well.  Which stones do you have?  Also, I may be wrong or you may be getting a different kit, but don't you still need the stones for the EP Pro kits?


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

hey deputy, shoot me a pm. =D

and if you can show me pictures of the stones that would be great.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

gavination - honestly, sharpening's not "hard" and I believe that if I had time to do it more frequently, I could be good at it. I'm both extremely lazy and extremely busy so it's a bad combination for developing a skill. The EP, from what I understand, takes away a large part of that learning curve (which is helpful, as I'm also very impatient). It's definitely not rocket science and I'm sure you'll be able to do it. I just don't have time to do a crap job. I need to do the sharpening and have the blades come out better than I started. 

I have the Chosera 400, 1000, and 5000. The stones that I have are the full stones so wouldn't fit in the EP kit.


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## gavination (Nov 25, 2012)

That's good to hear!  Thanks for the encouragement!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Just a quick point on practice.

No doubt practice is an important part of becoming better at anything, BUT you need to be practicing proper techniques or actions etc. 

Otherwise your only training your muscles, body and mind to do something that creates results you don't want.

It would be a whole lot easier to become s good or even decent sharpener if we had someone to show us the right way, and also give feedback on what may be going wrong.

If you can find someone local that could help im sure you would improve quickly.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

It was good fortune that you asked here before getting the Shun combi stone.  That one nearly killed waterstones for me.  Fortunately I have since found out that there are waterstones that don't gouge or wear like they were packed loam.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> It was good fortune that you asked here before getting the Shun combi stone. That one nearly killed waterstones for me. Fortunately I have since found out that there are waterstones that don't gouge or wear like they were packed loam.


If gouging is a problem then I can not think of a better stone than the Shapton glass stones.

Pretty much "gouge proof" 

That may save the stone, but if you want to get best results sharpening your still going to have learn and practice etc until your not gouging the stones anyway because most times if you are your also not holding a constant angle and not sharpening the complete edge.

I find what that happens it is mostly if not only the very end portion of the edge that is hitting the stone, and also is at a much more blunt angle than you want.

An added plus is that the glass stone has proven to be about the most "multi purpose " stone I own, and has sharpened everything from tools to pocket knives to Jknives etc.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Lenny it wasn't so much gouging as sticking and skipping.  It was only a problem when trying to sharpen an 8" Randall Bowie knife, they're pretty awkward to sharpen.  Truth be told I was using a 6k grit for roughing because I didn't want to put deep scratches in the $600 Randall.  Those Shun stones are very soft though, I was able to flatten a .02 trough out in relatively few minutes using just the unpolished underside of countertop granite, they make a mess with all the mud they produce with just normal sharpening.  At the moment I am thinking of a 2K Shapton combined with the 8K Geshin BDL recomends, and maybe stick with my ao stone for roughing or get the Bestor/Beston 500K.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

OK I think I know what your saying.

Still the glass stone continues to impress me for it's ability to work with various steels etc.

Mine is a 2K and though at times I have second guessed my choice it has proven to be my most used stone even if not exactly my favorite to use (I have found the 6K Arashiyama to just be a pleasure to use, and maybe it is also about the finer grit and being my finishing stone etc but it just seems to agree with me lol).

Also I look at hunting knives as a totally different animal, and even for those with improved steels it is just different for me at least.

I do not even put any hunting or util type blades on the 6K as I do not think it needed to go over the 2K and many 1K, but that's solely opinion and I can see where some would want to go even higher than 6K etc.

And come to think of it the few times I have managed to take a fine slice off the top of my 6K it has been completely user error due to being distracted in some way, and that's in no way the fault of anything else.

It doesn't flatten at the speed you describe but it is simple enough not to give much worry to either, and I think in a way it is the somewhat softer and finer surface of the stone that causes me to like it as it produces very nice feedback of what your doing, and on thinner blades will actually "sing" to you in a sort of odd way of telling it is happy with your efforts


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Alright, once I figured out the Apex Edge Pro, things went swimmingly. At first I just kept concentrating on one side of the knife, waiting for a burr, but it wasn't working. Finally, I reviewed the manual again and noticed that you just keep switching sides until a burr shows...that made things go MUCH more quickly. 

Took me a long time (an hour?) to do my Moritaka but that was mostly due to my own lack of understanding of what I was doing. Once I got going, it flew and is now as sharp as it's ever been. Fun!

I'm going to start another thread about how the heck I'm supposed to figure out which stones to use.


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## beardedcrow (Oct 1, 2012)

In my experience I have seen sushi chefs tape up the Damascus before sharpening so that don't scratch anything they don't have to.

I use saya's with all my knives, whether wood or plastic. It's not about performance it's about protecting the edge. 

That magnetic knife block looks awesome! Only I never touch magnets with my knives as the marks from wood/magnet contact bugs me.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I like the Idea of taping up the blade.

I don't scratch things up as much as I may have but it is like insurance just in case.


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## chefchadnyc (Jan 20, 2013)

Shapton Glass Stones:

500/2000/16000


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Chepchadnyc

How do you. ike the 12k glass stone?


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## chefchadnyc (Jan 20, 2013)

I used the 12k for a while but I have added on the 16k as my go to finisher.

I don't see a real difference (practical difference), for anyone other than a sushi chef, though.

A set of 500/2000/12k would work for most.

Anyway, I love these stones and suggest them to everyone at every skill level.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Is your 16k also a glass stone? 

Do you notice any difference between them all besides the grit?

I ask because as much as I like my 2k glass stone due to its ease of use from not needing to soak etc it just doesn't feel smooth or even like my others do. 

I'm going to be looking for a couple more stones soon and am really considering a glass stone for the lower grit (I really need something coarser for thinning and repairs than the 1k Arashiyama) but much as I want something faster etc I would prefer it to feel smoother and even too.

I'm not sure if I want to go the same direction on the higher grit, but my 2k had been so easy I would want to at least put one in the short list.


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## chefchadnyc (Jan 20, 2013)

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-GlassStone-16000-Grit-P221C84.aspx

I think you can find it online for $10 less or so ($120)

I find that the shaptons work best when you use all of them together - as opposed to starting with a standard wetstone to start.

Just note that the larger the gap in grit (like a jump from 2000 - 16000) will typically mean more time on the higher grit - but in general anything I put on them gets laser sharp in 15-20 strokes (per side per centimeter)


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