# Need a sharpening stone. Recommendations?



## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I have a chef's choice electric sharpener and I've done all I can do with it.  However, the second stage is still very coarse (visible grinding marks).  I'm looking for a bench stone that will take the edge that the CC can put on it and make it better.  I'm not sure if I'm in soft Arkansas or hard Arkansas territory or even what grit level for silicon stones.  If you have specific companies you recommend, link to them too.  I'm shopping for good pricing too.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

What kind of knives are you sharpening?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I'll take Chris's question for a $1000, Alex. 

Some other questions:

What's your price range?

How old is your CC?  Visible grinding marks often mean the stones are worn, dirty, and/or loaded with swarf.  Whatever else you decide to do, you should probably service it.

FYI.  Between bench stones and a CC, not many people follow up a CC with stones.  At least as part of a single sharpening "session," it's one or the other.  If you're going to go the trouble of even breaking out one stones, the CC is fair to partly pointless for shaping or fine polishing.  It's okay for a quick "touch up" if you can't spare the time to deal with stones, but the edge won't be as good.

BDL


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

My CC is new.  I have the "two-stage" model, which the second stage can get my other chefs knives (cheap stuff, but shouldn't any knife be able to at least get sharp?) to a point just short of how sharp my Forschner was out of the box.  I can get them to shaving some hair off my arm, but my Forschner could leave a bald streak with one swipe.  Remember, I'm a closet *******, we test sharpness in odd ways.

Here's my methodology to how I got "here" from "there".  Stones work in grits (okay, not Arkansas stones, but work with me).  I've seen you and others say that a coarse stone is NOT where you start if you're just starting with stones.  I believe it's medium and fine, but leave shaping to someone with experience.  Okay, so I'm using my CC for the shaping.  I feel like stage 2 is more of a "medium" grit than a fine grit.  I'm wanting to take it to the next level of sharpness.  I guess I'm trying to polish the edge I have.  The idea was to fill in what I don't already have before I backfill to replace the CC. 

Budget, up to $50, but really would prefer to stay in the $20-30 range.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It would be nice to be able to see the grind marks on one of your knives after it came out of the CC. Any chance of a couple of close up pictures? Assuming everything is just dandy with it, let's move along.

Your best knives are Forschner?

Two stage CCs make a double bevel. That means in order to chase it with a stone you're going to have to "click in" on a fairly small and fairly obtuse final bevel. It's not ideal, but cerainly doable.

Since money's an object, the first thing to try is stropping on clean mdf, cardboard, newspaper or leather glued to a board. It costs nothing and may give you the results you're looking for. Arm hair is an easy test to pass.

If you need to learn how to strop a kichen knife -- not the same thing as stropping a razor -- no problemo.

Your best bet would probably be a hard Arkansas or black Arkansas. If you're only going to use the stone for the Forschners, the black might be better. For a knife made with a "lesser" alloy, a black is wasted.

Don't get anything smaller than an 8 x 2" bench stone.

If you're buying a black, _only_ buy from Hall's Pro Edge ($53). If you're buying a hard, you might as well buy from Hall's ($36). Order by phone and say "hello" to Dick Hall for me. Hall's makes soft/hard Arkansas ($34) and Norton makes a fine India/translucent Arkansas ($75ish, hard to find) combination stones which are worth a look. I don't like combi Arks as they separate too easily. Babying a rock is too ridiculous.

More generally, a CC is not the best edge for someone willing to go through all the BS necessary to use a stone. If you both have the skill to use stones _and_ can tolerate their high PITA quotient, you can do a much better job. I'd really think about getting a basic four stone set as soon as you can afford it and reserving the CC for your lesser knives and emergencies.

Here's what it might look like: Norton Combinaton India Stone (either IB-8 or IC-8); Hall's soft Arkansas; and Hall's hard Arkansas. Throw in a Norton IM-50 "sharpening station," a honing rod and a wine-cork for deburring, and it's the same oil stone set I use as the first choice for stainless, European and American made knives. It can all be yours my friend for less than $150.

It's pretty good, but not ideal, for European, American, and a great many Japanese made "carbon steel" knives. Unfortunately, it makes a slow and painful job of nearly all of the stainless alloys (a great deal of it is Swedish) used by Japanese manufacturers.

You could use an affordable medium or medium-fine finish water stone like a King, or even a Suehiro Rika. But (a) it's really not as good for your current knife kit; and (b) water stones are a whole 'nother thing -- an even bigger PITA, and more expensive to boot.

BDL


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

I do hope you moved your glasses down to the end of your nose and looked down at me while typing that . Yes, my BEST KNIFE is a Forschner. I've never worked in a kitchen where I didn't use the knives provided.

I didn't realize that the CCs made a double bevel. I assumed they were the same bevel with a different "grit". The manual says stage two is "honing", FWIW (yeah, I know, it's not honing).



boar_d_laze said:


> Your best knives are Forschner?
> Two stage CCs make a double bevel. That means in order to chase it with a stone you're going to have to "click in" on a fairly small and fairly obtuse final bevel. It's not ideal, but cerainly doable.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you know the CC model number?  I'll check it out.  I'd forgot that Edgecraft (the CC company name) uses floppy wheels which won't lay on a secondary bevel for some of their "honing" stages. 

As a practical matter, it won't change how you have to go about doing what you want to do.  You're still going to have to "click in" to get the right sharpening angle when you put the knife on the stone; and you're still going to have to rub the knife on the rock. 

Oil stones?  Yes.  Oil?  No.  

A Forschner?!  Not many Forschners?  Dude!  Get out there and spend!

The chef's knives are wonderful bargains, and the rest of the Forschner Rosewood and Fibrox lines are so very, very good. You just can't beat their meat cutting knives.

BDL


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Chef's Choice 300 is the model.  I would buy MANY Forschners, except some cranky old knife guy gave them 2 1/2 stars.  I believe his exact quote was "not made in Japan, made by a mass producer, and the steel used doesn't have enough letters and numbers in it, but good enough for a n00b like gobblygook" .

I'm looking for a 10" next.  I just have to grow a pair and order it.  Besides, you're in a different life stage than I am.  I'm married (and I think you're not at present).  The difference is... a girlfriend doesn't care what you spend your money on, while a wife cares a LOT about what you spend HER money on .


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Oh, and while I'm insulting you, I thought I'd ask about Globe knives.  I saw one on a video recently and liked the way the end is way more rounded than the Forschner.  I'll have to go do some research, but I have a feeling I'm going to hear "NOOOOOOO"  .

Ah, scratch that. It's a Global and a trip on Amazon shows it's a santoku knife, not a normal "chef" knife.  If an 8" is too short, a 7" ain't gonna be any longer (I passed the thurd grade and all).


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## chefbee (Aug 11, 2010)

We have tried every thing to sharpen our knives.Water stones. Oil stones, tri stones diamond stones and yes a rock once. Some with better results than others. We now use a low speed sharpener from grizzly. It is a wet stone that spins at a low speed. It has a water bath that holds a magnet (supplied) that collects the metal shavings. With the accessories you can sharpen a number of cutting devices including kitchen knives. Look them up on line. This has given us the best results of all that we have tried. Well worth the money


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Now just hold on there Bobbalouie,

I gave a Forschner chef 2-1/2 stars as a reaction to the super-high ratings, not because they're lousy knives. As I said in the review, if a Forschner chef's is a 4-1/2 or 5 star knife, how many stars does a knife that gets sharper, stays sharper, is more comfortable, is better finished, and you-name-it-better get? My point with the star rating was more a comment on the star system than on the knives themselves, or even on the other reviews.

All Forschners Rosewoods and Fibrox are excellent values, but value is only aspect of "overall." The other qualities have to count for something, don't they?

Forschners are wonderful knives. They get sharper than most stainless, western made knives and stay sharper longer. Well let me quality that. They're made from one of the most popular stainless alloys used by western makers, hardened to the same level, but they act sharper because they're thinner. For most meat cutting knives and small parers, Forschners are at the top of my list.

The chef's knives are limited by their German profile -- which I find limiting. And since I value sharpness so much their sharpness and sharpening limitations are also... well... limiting.

Yesterday, I sharpened five Sabatiers from three makers -- two Sabatier chef's knives, a slicer, a "petty" (really a 6" slicer), and a 4" parer; and two Forschners -- a "wide filleting knife" (we use as a sort of everything knife), and a Forschner "sheep's foot" parer -- all as part of a review I'm working on about stropping with HandAmerican stropping products.

I took those knives as far as I and my equipment could take them, which is as far as they can be taken, or darn near. The Forschners were (and are) certainly sharp enough for shaving.

One of the nice things about Forschners is that they sharpen so easily, ridiculously more easily than a Wusthof Classic or Henckels Pro S; but not any easier than the Sabs. And the Sabs get soooooo much sharper. On top of that, the Sabs take a great deal more polish (makes the edges slippery). Furthermore, based on similar experience, I expect them to hold that extra sharpness (and polish) a great deal longer than the Forschners.

That doesn't make the Forschners bad knives, nor even "bad in comparison..." Just not as good, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

A 10" chef's is a great choice for a "go-to gyuto." It's so versatile. *Global* chef's have their good points -- including, I might add, a French profile -- but for most people, there are better knives for similar money. The handles can be problematic, especially over time. That isn't to say everyone has problems, but quite a few people do. They aren't what you'd call thin. And to tell the truth, they don't take the world's best edge or hold it very well either. A little better than your Forschner, but not much.

A 10" Global runs around $150, but and there are a glut of other very nice stainless knives in the $125 - $180 range.

There are also a few incredibly good carbon knives in the same range, for instance the Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, Masamoto CT, and several of the Sabatiers. If you can put up with carbon's "right now" neediness, you get significantly more for your money.

Something else to consider before you get too deeply invested into upgrading your knife is what kind of sharpening kit and skills are required to maintain it. Many Japanese made knives in the price range don't do particlularly well on oil stones. Others do well enough, thank you very much.

While it's still being sold, the *Chef's Choice Model 300* isn't current production. If I'm not mistaken the "honing" stage is the same floppy wheel as the used in the current Model 320's combined honing/stropping stage; and that the primary difference between the two machines is the way the knife is guided in the slot. The CC stropping wheel doesn't create a double bevel, but does convex the edge to some extent. You'll have to try and see if you can click in on a stone after stropping. Maybe, maybe not.

BDL

PS. I'm married and have to account for my expenses just like you. Knife related stuff probably rates different priority levels in our respective hobby allowances; also I probably get stuff cheaper than you do.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

[Deleted]


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Ah, I've seen you mention your wife by name, which usually indicates "single". Most people just say "wife" or DH (which I humorously thought was "designated hitter"  ). So far, I haven't been able to find the Forschner 10" in blue fibrox. Why do I care what color? Well, I dunno. My 8" is blue, and well, I like blue -- reminds me of when I sold cars... the COLOR was a deciding factor. Forget warranty, HP, ratings, etc... gotta have cup holders and be the perfect shade of <whatever>. I guess as I get older, I get more stuck on things. I did find it in a fibrox handle, so I'll probably order it anyway.

Now, help me out with the oil stones... you say use them, but not with oil. Do I soak them in water like a water stone or just use them dry?

I probably wouldn't mind the 8" so much, but I got 15x20 cutting boards, so the knife looks a bit small on them. So far, I've only opened one cutting board. They're extremely hard to wash in a sink that they won't fit in .

Now, let's say I haven't put my Forschner through the CC yet. Can I buy a stone and just work with the factory edge, just getting it sharper? If so, what should I get?

I wish there were a good fine/extra fine combo stone, but all of the combos seem to be coarse/fine. My understanding is that coarse is not something I should attempt to use yet.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Gobbly,

Plenty of medium/fine combos.  Or perhaps more properly medium-coarse/medium-fine. 

Norton 1000/4000, King 800/6000, and Suehiro 1000/6000 to name a few.  Suehiro is the combi-stone de jour, Everybody and his aunt learned on the King -- which is he cheapest.  I prefer the Norton.  They're all "clay binders."  Better still would be a couple or three 10mm Naniwa SS -- excellent resin binder stones, decent prices.

As soon as you get the hang of using anything as fine or finer than 2000#, you'll want a coarse to properly profile your knife -- which can be another way of saying fixing your 1000# screw ups.  You do want to at least learn to hold a steady angle before you do though, because errors made on a coarse stone take more work to clean up. 

BDL


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

This will get a lot of laughs from purists:

I have been using sharpening stones made out of slate tiles.

I cut a slate tile using a diamond tile cutter, ground the surfaces flat with carbide sand paper, and I got myself many nice size stones. For sure, they are not as good as japanese stones costing hundreds of dollars; they do give me razor sharp edges on my knives.

I don't know what grit a slate tile is, using a microscope, the grind marks on the edges seems finer than a surgical blade that I have, but not as fine as a shaving razor blade.

OK, go laugh. 

dcarch


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

dcarch,

Enjoying, but not laughing -- or at least not at you.  As a matter of fact, I always appreciate and enjoy your insights.

Don't know if I should say this or not, because (a) I don't want to rain on your parade; (b) don't want to invalidate your experience; and (c) certainly don't know everything, but...

Slate is too soft to do much in terms of abrading much old metal off the blade.  I think what you're doing is truing, buffing, and getting the same sorts of benefits you'd get from using a "naked" strop (with no abrasive compound).  You can probably get as much, if not more benefit, from stropping on newsprint or a manilla folder board pasted onto something flat and reasonably hard.  Try it, if you like and see for yourself.  I'd certainly love to give one of your slate bench stones a whirl.

Sharpening in the sense of creating a fine, fresh-metal edge requires hard abrasives.  Same story , and polishing in the sense of eliminating the scratches from the edge bevels and the micro-serrations left on the edge from sharpening, as opposed to smoothing by bending the scratches' peaks into the valleys.  In the materials sense, the abrasives need to be hard enough to overcome the knife alloy's toughness and scratch hardness.  They also need to be friable and break in such a way as to have their own sharp edges -- sharp enough to cut the knife alloy.  As a materials guy yourself, you already know enough to recognize that this is so.

There's no magic to sharpening.  Nobody, as engineers like to say, has repealed the laws of physics.  Physicists never say that, but that's a different can of worms.  

When it comes to edge quality, "sharp," "good," and "acceptable" are relative terms.  Your standards determine what you seek to accomplish.  I have no doubt you could make your knives much sharper using mundane sharpening stones than with slate, but you might not think the difference is important. I expect a knife to effortlessly "fall through" an onion or tomato for at least 6 weeks of home kitchen time -- the equivalent of a couple of restaurant shifts -- using nothing but a fine honing rod for maintenance between sharpenings. 

While that may seem like a high standard, it's easy to get used to.  If my wife is any expample, it takes about 8 weeks to become completely spoilt.

BDL


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

BDL,

There are many different kinds of slate tiles, as you know. Actually, this particular one is too hard. I think a softer one may work better. 



Again, I don't know what grit it is equivalent to. It puts a very shiny kind of polish on the edge, which is razor sharp. I dipped a magnet in the slurry and it picked up a good amount of iron filing, which means the stone is cutting well. 



I didn't set out to make a slate tile into a sharpening stone. I was laying down a slate tile path and decided to give a scrap piece a try.

dcarch


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

dcarch,

A typical slate is ~47 on the Shores Scleroscope scale which equates to a Rockwell C hardness of about 35 -- much softer than the softest modern knife steels -- which are typically (the softest mind you) in the high forties or low fifties. Hard, conventional steels go into the low 60s RCH, and more exotic PMs like Cowry X and ZDP189 can be hardend well into the mid sixties,

The screen size of slate particles isn't very important one way or the other. Because the knife is so much harder it will do more to the slate than the slate will do to the knife. Whether the slate particles are large or small -- the action of the knife on them will break them down to very small anyway. That's just how nature works. And yes, sure they'll act on the knife as well -- that's still how nature works. But compared to the options, slate isn't very efficient compared to a clay, resin, ceramic, metallic or magnesia substrate packed or coated with lots of hard abrasive silicon carbide, aluminum oxide, quartz, novaculite, boron carbide, garnet, chromium dioxide, sapphire, or diamond, to name some of the options.

Some slate has a fair bit of quartz, and that may be doing the work for you -- but no slate has enough to be a really efficient sharpener.

Men have carried and used sharpened steel blades for more than a 1500 years in Europe, and twice that long in India. Do you think slate as a sharpening material somehow just got overlooked for the last 15 or 30 centuries?

Because you can strop a blade on your jeans, a piece of leather, or a piece of newsprint and seriously improve an edge doesn't mean denim, cowhide, or yesterday's Washington Post are the _best_ sharpening stone materials.

There's also the problem with slate flaking. How do you deal with that?

BDL


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Well, my 10" Forschner came today.  I also got a 1000/6000 grit Woodstock water stone. 

Now I have to go watch some videos on how to sharpen...


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Hey now! I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the choices in stones and a newbie at that so please forgive me if my terminology is off. Im getting some Masahiro MV-H knives (any objections or suggestions welcomed; I read BDL disparaging their geometry, please expound) and would be extremely grateful for some advice on sharpening stone suggestions. My main confusion lies in the types. Some require a 15 minute soaking (natural & synthetic, but not ceramic?), and some only need a bit of water (ceramic?).

From what I understand I'm looking for a medium 1000 or 1200, and a fine 6000 or 8000. I'm leaning toward the Japanese water stones.  The stones that caught my eye were the Naniwa Chosera (15 min soaker I believe), Naniwa Superstone (ceramic no soaking?), Minosharp, Masahiro, King.

What do you reccommend? Again the knives are Masahiro MV-H knives. I generally like to buy the best within reason, though I will likely use the stone infrequently enough that it would last me 2 lifetimes. My budget is $50-$100. You knife gurus have great knowledge so thank you in advance for your advice!


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Hi Captain Hits -

I'll leave the explication of Masahiro geometry and its possible problems to someone who knows.  I know I've looked at pictures of those knives! (And seem them recommended with some frequency on other forums -- I don't even remember what they look like in pictures, though).

On stones - I've got experience with a few things, and I'm no expert but I'm an ok parrot. That said: Ceramic is one way synthetic stones are made, yes. They tend to be splash-and-go stones, to my understanding, however. In addition to ceramic, there are clay bonding, resinoid bonding, magnesia.... there are other materials. 

Lots of variables go into how a stone will feel and whether it's a "soaker" or a "splash and go" stone.  In my (limited) experience with splash-and-go stones, they should be soaked for a couple/few minutes, too.  It's not necessary, but they behave better.  Soaker stones generally take something like 30-45 minutes.  I've seen people recommend 15 minute soaks for some, but I haven't used one that didn't do better with longer than that. I don't know about the particular stones you're pointing out that say 15-minutes.

Besides how its bound, the kind of abrasive and its density, the method of hardening (heat or chemical reaction) and if heated in a kiln at what temperature, whether there are other additives beyond the abrasive...  all are parts of what make a particular stone so.... particular.

Different stones respond to pressure differently, and leave different finishes (cloudy or mirror-polished, f'rinstance) on particular kinds of steel, too.

I think what you see recommended for beginners tend to be soakers, which can be soft enough to give good feedback (gouging is bad, mmm'kay?) but not so soft as to wear out and dish too easily.  Softer stones tend to work up more "mud" I believe (though harder stones might too with a nagura or some lapping with a diamond plate).

Again, in my limited experience, I prefer a soaker to scrape metal against.  I like the convenience of the splash-and-go stones, and they dry out more readily for storage. But based on pricing and the haphazard way I originally purchased, I have a small mix of soakers and splash-and-go.  (Actually only my coarse stone is a real soaker; this will change as budget allows).

Anyway, I'm being SUPER incomplete, maybe very marginally inaccurate.  I think these things really don't matter so much at this point in your thinking, it's just good to be aware.  There are several threads that recommend stones to beginners for freehand sharpening -- some very recent.  Let us know if you need links or pointers -- I'm typing on a tight schedule at the moment so won't just go looking just now.  But I have recently, and I know there are recommendations out there.  I'd find an explanation of BDL's way of thinking of "four stages" (vs. "three stones") of sharpening.  You can get a set or you can build it piecemeal.  The first stone you'll be using is something in the 1,000 - 2,000 grit range because that cuts fast enough that you can see what effect you're having but not so fast as to make metal disappear on your knife faster than your learning to hold a steady angle will be good for.

You need something to flatten stones and you might want something to de-burr.  There are posts here, and there's Chad Ward's e-gullet site which has a chapter from his book, which explain raising and chasing a burr and deburring.  (Personally I haven't invested in strops and such yet; I might strop on newspaper, but my main deburring device is a wine cork, or a Chimay ale cork, after chasing burrs fairly tenaciously across stones).

Hope this is a start.  You've got the knack for reviving threads! (I have no expertise or even adopted prejudices to help with the fillet knife question you asked in another bit of necromantic thread wizardry; sorry... I just noticed you asking for help. I haven't cooked fish in a decade).

And the shortest answer is: get yourself a Beston 1200 water stone if you don't absolutely need to have a splash-and-go, and decide on a stone-flattening method.  (That's WAY too short an answer... especially if you can deal with getting a set to start with, or if you can afford something still more highfalutin'.  OR... if you're ok with something cheaper just to get started because getting started is the name of the game.  Before I complexify more, let's see what you're thinking; or let me let someone else point you to more of the "usual suspects".  But a quick perusal of recent threads will give lots of info on particular stone recommendations as well as how to think about a "system").


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't like different angles on different sides.  It's a gimmick which does nothing positive (I'm not actually sure if Masahiro still does that).  I'm also not a fan of the 80/20 (4:1) asymmetry which is too steep to steel; too steep for durability, given the knife's medium hardness; but not sufficiently asymmetric to really make a difference in perceived sharpness compared to a more moderate, more easily maintained 2:1. 

The spine's edges should have been better eased -- an F&F issue.

The edge geometry is easily improved.  Similarly, easing the spine isn't difficult.  Otherwise, excellent handle, good F&F for the price, good alloy (very similar to VG-1), mediocre profile.  I don't think it's one of the standouts in the price range in the same way the MAC Pro or the Masamoto VG (both VG-1), or even the Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff (AEB-L).  We can go into my reasons if you like.

Bottom line:  It's a solid player in a very tough league.  If you can sharpen, I wouldn't say "stay away."

Choseras are excellent but very expensive.  Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive, in my opinion.

I used to think Naniwa SS were great beginner's stones, because of their feedback, but have re-evaluated; they're very soft, easy to gouge, and a bit of a nightmare to maintain.  On the other hand, you can buy the thin, 10mm stones at a very advantageous price, they are fast, easy to flatten, and do provide excellent feedback.  Unless you're on a very tight budget, Kings are stones of the past.

I don't know the Minos bench stones very well, but think they're pretty expensive unless they're really special.  Masahiros are re-branded, marked-up, and not worth their money.

At a fairly reasonable price, the standout ~1000 is the Bester 1200, and the standout at ~6000 is the Takenoko.  I also like the Suehiro Rika 5000 quite a bit, especially for newer sharpeners and also as a lead in to an 8000 polishing stone (if you're interested in that much polish).  It's faster than the Takenoko and has better feedback, but doesn't polish nearly as well; in use it's really more 3000 than a 5000, but 3000 ain't bad at all for a chef's knife.  CKTG sells a three stone kit including the Beston 400, Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika for $130ish.  Sweet deal.

BDL


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Great info gentlemen. Funny, I found a thread from this forum in a goole search http://www.cheftalk.com/t/13110/sharpening-japanese-knives and they say that ceramic will eat up the thinner japanese edges too quickly and the "soakers" are the way to go. I was looking at the Bester but I read it's a ceramic; I may be incorrect but I'm leaning toward the clay based soakers due to them being more forgiving while I learn (so as not to screw up the knife) Any suggestions in a clay based (like the Chosera but maybe a bit less expensive)? For finishing I think I will go with the Takenoko/Arashiyama. Can I go from a 1200 directly to the '6000/8000' Takenoko Arashiyama?

BTW what do you think of these Masahiro's http://japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html for about $30?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

On that first thread you linked, it seems the distinction they're making is between "ceramic stones" vs. "water stones".  So I'm not sure what they're up to, since ceramic stones can be water stones.  I think it's a vocabulary issue. Anway, splash-and-go stones are used on super thin Japanese knives all the time, there's not a rule that says they cut too fast. They may cut faster or slower than a soaker, stone-to-stone.  But you're looking at soakers for other very good reasons anyway.

1,200 to 8,000 *sounds* like a big jump to me, but I'm not familiar with the Takenoko. Particular stones may be ok with bigger jumps.  [You didn't ask, but: my current highest-grit stone is a 5,000 which I'm told is more "like a 5,000 - 6,000".  I'll grab an 8,000 eventually, but I'm not sure I can even use the polish so much as am just curious/desirous, and at this point I'm not sure I'm consistently steady enough to make very good use of it. Hopefully I'll practice some this weekend and maybe learn something.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Don't get hung up on "ceramic" v. "water stones."  Either Anneke didn't know what she was talking about, or expressed herself incorrectly.  Most synthetic water stones are one type of ceramic or another. The distinction is meaningless.  If you make anything out of it at all, that's way too much.

A Bester 1200 isn't perfect, but the problems are that it's hard and takes a long soak to get ready -- which aren't much in the way of problems.  Otherwise, it's very fast -- so fast that it can do small repairs -- and cuts very fine. It will give most 2000s a run for their money.  It won't hurt your knife, honest.  I use a Bester 1200 in my water stone kit as the first true sharpening stone, and am very happy with it.  There's some competition, but the other stones are either very expensive or difficult to get in the US.

The Takenoko is actually and in fact 6000.  It is not 8000. Some retailers advertise it as 8,000 because it polishes so well, but it's actually 6000, and no mistake.  It's an extremely fast 6000, but still leaves as fine a polish as most of the old 8000s like King and Norton.  It's an excellent stone. 

The Arashiyama is the same, exact stone as the Takenoko only wider. 

The jump from Bester 1200 to Takenoko 6000 is large but not too large; it's a well proven combination.  If you want a Takenoko finish, you don't really need an intermediate stone.  To give it some context, 5:1 is a very common combi-stone jump from one side to another.  Nothing to be afraid of, especially considering how the 1200's fine scratch and the Takenoko's speed.  

If you want to go finer than a Takenoko, you probably do want something between your 1200 and whatever your polishing stone will be.  I use a Chosera 3000 in front of my (soon to be replaced) Naniwa SS 8000, but got the Chosera at a huge discount.  If paying real prices, I'd buy a Suehiro Rika.

Stone choices at JCK are just OK, and their prices are not the best.  CKtG does much, much better.   There are some other retailers to look at if you want specific stones, but it's hard to beat CKtG for competitively priced enthusiasts' favorites. 

BDL


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Thanks. Would a softer stone be more forgiving in terms of cutting speed to accomodate a learning curve and possible improper technique? If so what are some recommendations in a slightly softer 1200?

Although I'm not looking to splurge on a $300 natural stone I'm a perfectionist and if I don't get the right stones/ grit jumps to start I will end up getting them. Id like to avoid buying something that I will not be totally satisfied with.

BTW if I decided to add a third stone for the mirror finish would I add a 3000 or so between the 1200 and 6000? Or would I want something like 1200 - 3000 -8000?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Soft stones are "velvety" and feel great, but they're easy to gouge.  Some would say that teaches you technique in the "harden the F*CK UP!" school of thought.  I dunno, it's horses for coarses.  It's like recommending a Chinese meal to someone who's never tasted Chinese food before.  Hard to know what you'll like, quality aside.


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Ok I cant be satisfied without the best; or as close as I can come. I have good knives now and I have no plans to stop cutting food so I'm assuming I will have these for the rest of my life. I've decided on the chosera 1000 and the arashiyama 6000. With the seemingly iconic status and  flawless reputation of the chosera on every level, for the extra $35 over the Bester I just can't see passing it up. Thanks a million for your suggestions.

BTW, would you suggest the 1000 or 2000 chosera as my medium (to go with the 6000 arashiyama)? Masahiro MVH knives that will be used lightly.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Look into the Gesshin 2000 too.  Phaedrus is right about "it's like Chinese food"... without the chance of trying various stones it's going to be tough.  But you've moved from budget considerations to "best of the best" considerations, and I think the Gesshin 2000 (and the 4000 ... and eventually 8000 for polish and the 400 for coarse) should be considered.

The 2000 cuts fast, no worries about that in place of the 1200 Bester.  (And I don't have all of these because of budgetary considerations, but I've used them.  The 1000 and 5000 are great splash-and-go stones; the others soakers.  Perhaps better, definitely more spendy.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

$80 for your ~1,000 stone is way too much.  Unless you're a hobbyist sharpener and/or knife collector, you just won't get the difference.  The Chosera is a more convenient stone than the Bester or Sigma Power but no better. 

The Gesshin is a different beast, and unless pulling that first wire quickly is not a high priority, not a great choice to occupy the "first sharpening stone" niche.  By and large if you want to make a fast 2000 cut anywhere near as fast as a fast 1000, you need to (a) apply a lot of pressure, and (b) understand "mud" and how its breakdown effects speed and polish.  I've seen this scenario play out with other "flavor of the month" 2000s, and I think it's a good idea to start a little more standard.

If you're going to stop polishing at the medium/fine border -- it's hard to beat the Takenoko.  Your ultimate kit might be:  Beston 400, Bester 1200, Takenoko 6000. 

If you're just looking for an efficient, "fine enough" edge -- you can stop at the Suehiro Rika (a really easy to use, versatile, stone).  Your kit would be:  400, 1200, Suehiro Rika 5000.  CKtG sells this kit, Beston, Bester, Suehrio, for $135; and that's a really good way to go.

If you want to polish higher, say to 8000 or 10000, it goes faster and easier to have an intermediate between the ~1000 and the final stone.  My kit is Beston 400, Bester 1200, Chosera 3000, and Naniwa SS 8000. 

I use but don't recommend the Chosera 3000, and you can take that as a judgment on Choseras in general.  They're very good, but don't do a better job than stones which cost less.  I don't want to minimize their excellence, but think they're sort of a trap for people who want and are willing to pay for "the best."  There is no best.  If the extra $35 buys you some peace of minde, it's worth it; but it won't buy you a better stone.

When we talk about very soft stones, we're often talking about Naniwa SS.  I've owned and used all of them at one time or another, and like them quite a bit.  I used to recommend them as great beginner's stones because of their excellent feedback and bargain basement price for the 10mm versions.  But have re-evaluated because part of the feedback includes a tendency to gouge with angle wobbling; they require very careful drying out, and micro-fracture anyway, which means flattening EVERY time.   If you play golf, you might think "game improvement", offset hosel, cavity-backs vs blades -- for beginners.

There are other soft stones with excellent feedback which aren't as cranky as the SS.  Kings, Nortons, and Suehiros for instance.  A few of the Suehiros are very good, but the time for Nortons and Kings, for all their feedback has passed.  With a few exceptions, stones in this class are comparatively both too slow, and cut too coarse.    

Getting back to the Beston/Bester stones -- they're chief drawback is inconvenience.  If you notice your knife is dull in the middle of prep, you can't simply pull out your Bester, then splash and go.  They take at least 30 minutes of soak time, and two hours is better.  A lot of people leave theirs in the bucket overnight and sharpen early.  People who do a lot of sharpening often leave them in the bucket full time.  (You can't do that with most stones, btw.)  But the need to sharpen is predictable, I don't regard that as much of a problem.  True, they are both "hard," and without being unpleasant aren't quite as pleasant to use as some other stones; but again -- that's not much of a drawback.   

Maybe we should get back to basics before warming up the credit card.

How do you sharpen? Do you use the "burr method"  (pull the burr; chase the burr; deburr if necessary; and repeat for each stone)?  Count strokes?  Something else?

How do you deburr?

Do you use a steel?  How often?  How fine?

Do you think you'll ultimately want a four stone kit (fine polish), or a three stone kit (working finish)? 

Do you have a lot of special purpose knives?  For instance, butchering knives?  Do you do a lot of meat work?  Fish work?

BDL


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I think the Gesshin 2000 is about as fast as the Bester 1200, apart from in general. At least on the Yoshihiro stainless it is -- which takes a lot longer to pull a wire than on my carbons. Have you used it, BDL? It's not nearly as fast as the 400, obviously, but it's really not a "take forever" stone.

That said, rather the reverse of your take on the Choseras... I don't have one.  It wasn't an immediate need and they're not cheap.

And your recommendation of the Bester 1200 is probably better, yes.  But when someone starts talking about wanting the "best" and not wanting to save so much, it should be considered (obviously "IMO" and so on, and the "my" in question is not the most experienced across a wider variety of stones or just time sharpening. But sometimes beginners can give helpful opinions to other beginners after early experiences).


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Gesshin 2000, Chosera 1000, Bester 1200 -- we have to guard against our male tendency to pick flyspecks out of pepper.  That's why, in a class of very goods, I gravitate towards the cheapest.

Gesshin 2000 yes.  Tried it, liked it a lot.  Not as fast as the Bester 1200, at least not in my hands; and think the Bester is the better stone for the slot in most kits. 

Technique probably has at least as much to do with it as the steel.  That said, our techniques probably aren't that different.  KC got me to use more speed and pressure, and Jon's (still) heavily influenced by KC as well.

For the little it's worth, I'm backsliding towards less speed (still comparatively fast, used to be medium) and pressure (from firm to moderate, used to be light), but don't know where the process will end.  Broida's also doing a lot of evolution, probably more than me. 

FWIW, both of those guys like to dissolve the burr on the stone, but take a more definite approach.  That's got a lot do whether most of your knives are sharpened on one side or both.  To me, deburring is the ultimate act of sharpening and polishing is something else. 

Over the years, I've found that those things don't matter much as long as you're consistent with "tests," can interpret their results, and know how to act on them.  A fresh-metal, true, non-wire, sharp edge is a fresh-metal, sharp, true, non-wire, sharp edge.  Doesn't matter how you get there.

Jon says he has something to replace the SS 8000 in my kit.  KC actually bought it new, and sold it to me when it was about half used up and he was bored.  KC doesn't take great care of his stones, and with my use and maintenance has reached the stage where it's very iffy -- thin and crumbly (from KC's over-soaking).  Jon's stone could be the Gesshin or something not up on the JKI page.  I'll buy whatever it is, but don't get to the west side much anymore, so haven't picked it up yet.   

I've now got four different types of sharpening kits; oil stone, water stone, EP (Chosera) and strop.  Well, three and a half, allowing for the fact that my strop compounds start at 2u and go finer.  Or, you could say 3-1/2 + 1/2 if you count the two different rod hones.  Silly, neh?

BDL


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I agree there's no "the best".  Those stones just happen to be to Jon Broida's particular tastes for synthetic stones.  I don't have enough experience to either buy in or distinguish my own personal tastes.  But they're among the cost-no-issue "bests" I would think, and... well, until I learn to know different, like most of us I usually adopt prejudices from teachers. (And indirectly, BDL, you "sent" me to Jon -- writing to someone else, you recommended "find someone who knows what 'sharp' is and learn from them").

We (Jon and I) measured my own pressure -- somewhere between 3-4 lbs of pressure is "light" -- way lighter than was instinctive for me -- but much more than that, and for me a whole lot of wobble was introduced.  I have a bit of nerve damage where my left hand, which is the pressure hand, is slightly wobbly anyway. Fortunately the "job" of my right hand is to hold the angle even, and my right hand is less affected.

Anyway, Broida's encouragement was toward lighter pressure and less speed, at least for me.  Less than his probably, or less ability to know when and why to bear down, certainly.  So my lighter pressure might have little to do with what he's doing at any given time.  I wish I had  him get more articulate about "dissolving the burr" -- because yeah, I think that's the right way to put it, though he didn't use that phrase; he does de-burr on cork, but not between stones.  And showed me stropping on newspaper, said he'd be happy to show me on "real strops" but he thinks too often stropping is used -- by beginners -- as a cover-up for doing an inadequate job on the stones. And I haven't invested in any HandAmerican products.  Jon's not a big fan of steeling, either; but then, he's generally using enough asymmetry and hard steels. All real interesting.

I didn't buy the Gesshin 2000, but I want it.  I thought it "felt better" and gave more feedback, both auditory and tactile, for my angle-holding.  Then again, I'm still very attached to the magic marker trick and checking super frequently. And will probably sooner get the Bester, myself, because I don't "need' the more expensive item.  And my finishing stone is a Gesshin.  (Eventually I'll probably end on the 8000 anyway, so that finish will be that finish.  Not now).

Which brings to mind... could you (BDL in particular, but anyone) give some disquisition on levels of polish vs. toothiness as being more appropriate to what?  I know it depends what you want to cut, and have seen recent talk on lower levels for pork (?) I think on Fred's; some mention that kc is stopping at 1,000 for sharpening on the job -- though I don't know if that's true, I didn't see him write it.  And we talk about higher levels.  Jon thought I'd never have ANY reason to go above the 8000, and probably would be happy stopping short of that anyway if I wanted.

I'm trying to sort out reasons for doing things.  I've met some guys who polish stupid-high, on stones meant for straight razors, and heard Jon make fun of them to their faces.  And they were ribbing themselves about it.  I take it that's just hobbyist obsession; I'm trying to decide whether something like 8000 is approaching that, in a practical sense, too.


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Oh boy now you're exposing my true novice. I have to be forthright and say that my current knive set and the best I've owned is chicago cutlery. (I'm going to use them to practice on) The Masahiros are on their way. I have used stones as a young kid prob 14 years old to sharpen pocket knives but nothing since. I do have a very steady hand though, aquire technique quickly, and am adept in doing things with precision. I'm using the videos at CKTG as a learning guide and to try and keep up with all your terminology.

So to answer your questions, I _will _be using the burr method, counting strokes (I believe thats the method CKTG shows and you all prefer).

To debur I was going to buy a felt cube from CKTG with my stones.

My steel is a MAC black ceramic honing rod SRB-84. I read a couple of your posts about rods. They say this is a 2000 grit. It's very handsome and looks and feels way nicer than the pictures.

I believe I will ultimately want a 3 stone kit, but a 3 stone fine polish like 1000-2000, 6000, 8000 (starting with the 1-2 and 6. Would that be reasonable?)

The MVH knives I have coming are basics: 8" chef, 5" utility, 3.5" pairing.

Considering I only want to make this purchase once (save for adding an 8000+) I don't mind spending $80 on a medium grit because I'm the type of person who can appreciate the super small details that most people would never even notice. With that said if you think the chosera 1000 or 2000 (not sure which one would suit my needs better) would have that slight edge in terms of 'luxury sharpening' with superb feedback than I like the idea of the medium chosera with the 6000 takenoko. Of course your expert opinion will weigh on my decision.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

so for you the Gesshin is just silly -- it's a $130 stone!  I'll leave to BDL to point you between the Chosera and others given your latest input, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet what h recommends is still the Bester 1200.  And without your having developed very particular tastes yet to point in another direction, I would think there's no point in spending more.  (I haven't used the Choseras at all, so am leaving that alone -- it's just the thread so far I think has already answered that question!)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes.  I recommend the Bester over the Chosera.  Price aside, "net-net," I think they're about equal, with the Chosera friendlier, but the Bester a bit more high performance.  But if price is any kind of factor at all, there's no contest.  No matter how much money I have, I can't see spending $215 on a three stone kit that won't work any better than one costing $135. 

If you're buying peace of mind by buying the Chosera -- it's probably worth it.  But there's nothing enough better about the stone to make it worth the extra dough other than its enormous popularity last year.

If you're eventual target grit range is 8000 - 10000, the Suehiro Rika will serve you better as an intermediate stone than the Takenoko.  There are some major nuances when it comes to fine polishing, but this thread isn't the right place for it.  

Captain, when you say you can sharpen I believe you.  But I also know that if most of your experience has come from sharpening modern Chicago Cutlery you've got some surprises in store. 

Also, the "burr method" is not the same as the "counting strokes" method.  You can absolutely trust me on this since they're not common usage names, but mine.   The burr method has you feeling and looking for the burr; while counting strokes asks you to enough repetition to make sure you've done enough.  The first requires understanding, but will make you a better sharpener, faster.  The second is more "paint by the numbers," and is limited; you may do everything right and still not end up with a very sharp knife.

A MAC hone is fine. 

Why an 8" chef's?  Why not a 10"?

BDL


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

The 8" is just what Ive been using and I wasn't aware of any info that recommended a 10 vs 8. Do you? I don't do alot of cooking that requires a chefs knife (maybe once a week).

I really don''t have any experience sharpening to speak of. Like I say the last time was probably 20 years ago on pocket knives. I haven't even practiced on the chicago except fot the honing steel. I just have good precision skills so I think I should be able to pick it up. But so I don't screw up my Masahiros trying to sharpen for the first time I was going to use the chicago's to try and get a bit of technique down.

So your saying the only stone you'd consider in the medium range is the chosera? (I kid . I'm debating between bester but at least I have it narrowed down to 2.

I was reading about the Suehiro and the impression im getting is that with the 5k Suehiro I am going to want an 8-10k afterwards because it leaves a finish more like a 3k stone. However if I go with the Takenoko I could stop there and be satisfied, or I could go onto an 8-10k if I wanted to.

BTW with the light use that I will be giving them do you think I'd be safe to start with a 2000 instead of a 1000?  (ie 2000 - 6000)


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

Personally I would not bother with the Choseras.  Just not worth the money unless you are so rich that $200 one way or the other really doesn't make any difference whatsoever in your life.

The Naniwa synthetic Aoto is a very good and reasonable 2K+ stone (the grit is effectively higher if you spend some time on it).  It is roughly the same price as most other 2K-3K stones, but is twice as thick, making it an exceptional value.

The Takenoko is a very good stone that works very well and is very easy to learn on.  However, the Naniwa synthetic aoto (affectionately known as the "green brick" by those familiar with it) is reputed to leave a ~4K+-like edge if you spend a lot of time on it, so the 6K Takenoko that finishes at about 7K or so might be too close an upgrade if you go that route.

My personal recommendation for a budget conscious but still very high performance set would be:

1. Bester 1200

2. Naniwa synthetic aoto

3. Imanishi 10K white stone.

This set should get you a wicked edge.  For most knives you can stop at the green brick and already have a shaving edge.  For premium knives, the Imanishi 10K will leave a highly polished edge that will slip through things you might not even have intended to cut.

You might also add a coarser stone for repairs or initial rebeveling.  For this you might consider a $12 "Peacock" brand stone flattener from Korin.  Don't be fooled by what they sell it as -- it's really just a 120 grit stone.  It even comes with instructions on how to sharpen knives on the box.  The advantage here is of course that the rebeveling stone doubles as a flattener for the other stones.  At a measly $12, you might as well buy two, because if you use it to repair and rebevel, you'll have to flatten the Peacock stone itself eventually as well.

A step up would be the DMT extra-extra coarse diamond plate, which would also double as a stone flattener.  But this thing would run you somewhere between $70-$90.  Good news is that there would be no need to ever flatten a DMT place.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

you might be very satisfied with a 3k finish -- especially for a while.  But again, reading back through the course of this discussion, I think BDL had recommended the Takenoko (which is a "true" 6000) both as befits his own preference for a finishing stone and so you don't have to buy yet another. You'll want to get good with the 1200 for a while before you're really looking higher grit anyway.


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## capsaicin (Jan 16, 2011)

btw if Jon Broida thinks it's dumb to polish knives above 8K, why does he sell a 15K stone (and have demo videos of it online)?

I do agree most knives do not benefit much from polishing even above 3-4K.  But the very best knives can be polished all the way up to whatever you want to.  I don't see why anyone would because functionally it makes no difference in their food, but in my opinion, if someone wants to spend thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on natural Japanese stones, bidding against sword makers, just to use it on a kitchen knife that they use at home (the case is easier to make for, say, a famous sushi chef), it's not really anyone else's business.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I didn't exactly say he thought it was dumb...

It's just easy to make fun of extreme hobbyists -- especially if they're friends.  I think that was in the realm of good-natured ribbing.  And for my benefit as the n00b in the room.  Some of his customers are real sharpening nuts.  And  it is helpful to know certain theoretical limits even if you back off from them for practical purposes.  15k or 20k also for razors, for paper knives, etc.  But you'll notice he specifically doesn't have those stones listed on the website.  There's a video of the 15k Gesshin, but you "have to know".


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You have to know sharpening and the sharpening community to understand what and who (Ken Schwartz) he's talking about, to understand Jon 's comments as Wag reported them. 

Jon and I agree about a lot of things, and we're very close on appropriate grit levels.  If you like "authority" you can throw Dave Martell and probably Murray Carter in there as well.  The right range for a given knife depends on the work you'll put it to, whether and how you use a steel, the polishing stone(s), and the knife itself -- especially its scratch hardness.  From a practical, cook's standpoint, it's a waste of time to put an ultra-polish on a knife which will lose it in a few minutes of work. 

Cooks who sharpen to "normal levels" (4000 and less) learn that finer edges hold up better than coarse edges.  But at some point -- say 5000 -- that's no longer true.  Also, at 3000 - 5000, steeling becomes very iffy if you want to preserve the polish -- even with an ultra-fine or polished steel and the softest, most minimal technique. 

Without delving too deeply into specific grits/stones for specific purposes, let me say there are nuances.  For instance, an 0.25u diamond strop can leave a more efficient edge than a Naniwa SS 8000, even though 0.25u is significantly smaller than the SS 8000's abrasive.  Similarly, a Kitayama 8000 finish goes on, looks and acts very different from the Naniwa's.  But put one over the other -- either way -- and you're approaching an ultimate edge.  Worth the time and money?  Not to me.

Just for Captainhits -- If you're thinking of 3000 as the Suehiro Rika's true level, you're getting that from me.  Once you get enough expertise to go beyond the basics, working the knife on the stone, creating "mud," then breaking it down with more work, it will polish at the 5000 level.  Aotos -- another recommendation from someone else -- work the same way, although not as fine. 

BDL


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

So BDL, If you were in my shoes in terms of noob with confidence in learning quickly, Masahiro MVH's ( MBS-26 stainless steel, 80/20, 58-60), very light usage, money not being a concern (within the $100 each range), starting with 2 stones and adding a third in time, for fine polish; would you go with a 1200 Bester/5000 Suehiro, 1200 Bester/6000 Takenoko, 1000 Chosera/5000 Suehiro, 1000 Chosera/6000 Takenoko, 2000 Chosera/6000 Takenoko? Please circle one (or 2). Whew alot of combinations there


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I can't speak for BDL but if we're spending your money it's gonna be the Choceras./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif But I can probably say that since I've bought them all for myself. Mine are cut for the EP but I also freehand smaller blades on them. I have every Chocera in the line except the 600, and it's on my to-do list. The Shapton Professional 1k is also a terrific stone. I've never used the Suehiro Rika so I can't comment on that one.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Phaedrus wins.  I've only got five Choseras (four cut for the EP).  Across the line, with only a couple of exceptions (on the coarse end), Choseras are excellent stones, very convenient and very consistent.  If you don't care about getting a good deal, they're an excellent choice.   I don't recommend the 400#, though. 

Speaking of which, you might as well buy a coarse stone now, even though you shouldn't mess with it until you've developed some skills.

If you absolutely, positively, must have "the best" and most expensive, you probably want to go all Gesshin (from Japanese Knife Imports).  Gesshin is the current trendy everything. 

In fact, if you haven't purchased your chef's knife yet, you might think about a Gesshin.  FWIW, Gesshin is JKI's house brand; and so far everything sold under the Gesshin name is excellent.  I'd also consider the Richmond Addict 2 (wa-handle and all).  Nothing wrong with a Masahiro, but you can do better.

Gonna disagree a little with Phaedrus.  I can't recommend any Shapton Pro for a beginner.  The SPs were revolutionary when hit the market, but quite a few great stones have entered it since -- most of which are faster, cheaper and less idiosyncratic.  For a couple of years, three of the four stones in my four stone water stone set, were SPs.  Although not at issue here, the SP 5000 is particularly bizarre.  I loved mine, but very few others felt the same. 

The CKtG "package deal" of Beston 400, Bester 1200, and Suehiro Rika is a very good set.  It's $135.  I like each stone better than their equivalent Choseras -- especially the 400 -- but there are trade offs at ~1000 and 3000 - 5000.  An all Chosera kit would cost $285 - $300, depending on whether you topped out at 3000 or 5000.  An all Gesshin kit, 400, 1000, 4000, would be faster/better and cost $285.  Whether or not you, as a relative beginner, would see the Gesshin benefit anytime soon is questionable.  But their quality is something you don't have to worry about and comfort level is worth A LOT. 

In your position -- which includes a fortunate ability to lay out cash -- I'd very strongly consider the Edge Pro Apex/Chosera kit sold by CKtG.  That will run you around $285 as well.  Phaedrus and I are both freehand sharpeners who also use and like EP/Chosera kits.  The biggest benefits are measured in time.  The learning curve is so much flatter than freehanding, it's particularly good for beginners seeking good results with hours -- instead of weeks or months -- of practice.  Also, you can sharpen a lot of knives PDQ with an EP.  QED.

If you've already purchased or otherwise wedded to the bran, strongly consider re-profiling the Masahiros to less asymmetry ASAP so they can be effectively trued on a rod hone; otherwise you're going to be doing a helluva lot of sharpening just to keep their edges true.  A little out of true might not be the same thing as actually dull, but it sure cuts that way.

BDL


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

Holy S BDL you use an EP? Im surprised but I guess that speaks for the product. I watched a couple of their videos and it looks very nice. Now you got me really considering that. What do you think about the wicked edge? Pros/cons of either?

If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?

The Masahiros are from bedbathandbeyond so they have a lifetime no question return policy. So I do have the option If I decide on something different, or a 10" chef vs 8".

Are you saying reprofile because when Im honing if there is 80% on one side it will be difficult to hone the 20% side to keep it true? And sorry to sound stupid but the asymmetry has nothing to do with the angle degree the knifes are sharpened at correct? It's just a larger bevel on one side? I was looking at this page which describes each edge http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifeedgetypes.shtml are the Masahiro's asymetrical flat? "The edge tapers on the straight line from both sides, but the angles are uneven. Used for more durable edges, sacrifices sharpness." What edge do you recommend?

BTW if you want a good magnetic knife bar recommendation I'm the toughist critic and bought this one and love it Cant scratch the knife, super strong magnets (no odd spots that force the knife crooked), minimalist sleek design, and slides off for cleaning.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Regardless of ones general opinions of the Shapton Pro stones, the SP 1k is exceptional.  A very good stone!  Fast cutting, slow dishing with a very nice finish.  Even a rank amatuer can get good results from the 1k.  The 5k...that one, not so much.  Of course, on the EP all your assumptions about which stones are good may be turned on their ear.  When you have near perfect control and every stroke clears the same plane, you really begin to experience a stone in a new way- you're able to distill the essence of what it's able to do.  If you ever get in to the higher level Shaps I think you'll be dumbfounded by what they're able to do on the EP.

The Chocera 400 is one of the most exceptional aratos I've ever used.  The Shap 320 is in the same general league.  If you're considering the EP then the Chocera kit is almost mandatory.  While I certainly haven't tried every stone out there, nothing I've seen can compare overall to the Choceras.  Now this depends on the type of knives you sharpen and the feel you like.  I prefer a softer, muddier stone and that's the Chocera line (with some exceptions).  You may like something else.  There are individual grits where the Chocera might not be the best choice of all the stones out there, but IMO it gets an 85% or better on everthing.  There's nothing it doesn't do at least pretty well, and many things it does superbly.  I don't know of any synthetic that can match the awe-inspiring Chocera 10k.  The EP is a tremendous tool.  If your knives are double bevel, even if asymmetric, this tool will do a great job.

If you're dead set on freehand sharpening and don't care about the price, then instead of popping for the Gesshin right away you might want to wait a few weeks if you can.  There's a new line coming out that's pretty interesting.  I can't really say anything about them at the moment except I wouldn't buy any synthetic until these come to market.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

such a tease, Phaedrus... ! I won't have budget for new stones for a few weeks anyway, I guess.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

captainhits said:


> Holy S BDL you use an EP? Im surprised but I guess that speaks for the product. I watched a couple of their videos and it looks very nice. Now you got me really considering that. What do you think about the wicked edge? Pros/cons of either?
> 
> If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?


I'm eager, too, to see how BDL is liking the EP. I haven't had a chance yet to try a WEPS (Wicked Edge Precision Sharpener) yet as they've been backordered for awhile. I can make some general comments based on the feedback of others, plus what admittedly is just "thought experiment" on my part.

First off, the WEPS is considerably more expensive than the EP Apex. It costs $250 vs about $155 (depending on vendor) for the Apex. At this price the WEPS doesn't come with a base, either. The cheapest base they sell is $45, with the top option being a $75 granite slab. Of course, you could fashion your own base and save a few bucks.

Next, the WEPS currently ships with diamond abrasive paddles as the standard. IMOHO this isn't the idea sharpening medium for Japanese knives. I will say that Ken will soon be (maybe already is) supplying both Shapton and Choceras cut and mounted for the WEPS. This will make it a very versatile and powerful platform. Yet I must point out that since the WEPS has two paddles, you'll need to buy two of each stone- and that can get expensive. The Chocera 10k runs around $70 each, so you're talking $140 for 2 x 10ks. $100 for 2 x 5k. $80 for 2 x 8k. So on and so forth. Of course, in theory having two paddles will get the job done twice as fast.

The main strength, or weakness, of the WEPS is the clamp system. It clamps your blade by the spine, edge up, allowing both sides of the knife to be worked simultaneously. I can see a couple possible problems with this. First, I wonder if the clamp will mar a blade? If it holds tight enough to keep if from moving it may be tight enough to scratch the spine. Probably not a big deal. The main issue is the the clamp limits the size of the blade you can do without reclamping. IIRC, Clay told me it can accomodate an 11" blade (don't take this as gospel, Clay told me quite a while ago and I may not remember correctly). That is enough for most kitchen blades, but not all. I did a 14" chef's knife for my boss on an EP. I know a guy who did a 38" martial arts sword on an EP! He had to have a helper hold up one end but it worked.

Lastly, the current design of the clamp of the WEPS limits how low the angle can go on most knives. Again, my memory is hazy but I think we're talking about 15 degrees per side. Not bad but I go quite a bit lower than than on some knives. Each side's angle is independently set, and while this will be a great boon in dealing with asymmetry, it's a real disadvantage to not be able to go lower than that. Now I understand that Clay Allison, the creator of the WEPS, is working on a fix that will allow lower angles, but I don't know when it's due out nor whether it can be retrofit to the old machine.

I do know some folks that weren't able to make the EP work that find the WEPS to be very easy to use. Also, it's a great tool for those with limited movement or disability. There's a guy at another forum I frequent that's a paraplegic; he's unable to situate himself in a position to work the EP but has found the WEPS to work for him. Certainly the ability to do both sides at once speeds things up. I've seen microscopic images of the WEPS scratch pattern with Shapton stones and the results are impressive. It will get a knife very sharp.

Now in the EP's favor: It's cheaper to buy, stones are cheaper since you only need one, and it's more versatile (lower angles and the ability to sharpen a knife regardless of length). It folds compactly and requires no base to sit one. There are more stones available for it and it can be made to accomodate larger stones, too. I personally have 7 DMT plates in the 2" x 6" size mounted to blanks for EP use. I've used Japanese natural stones, dressed and mounted myself, that are 1/2" thick and 3" x 5" (W/L). Stone blanks are pretty cheap and are reusable. 1" x 6" is a somewhat standard size of stones; Boride, the supplier of the OEM EP stones, makes a very large assortment of them. I bought a Boride recently that was 1 x 6 and a half inch thick for $8 + shipping.

Both are great tools. It just depends on what you're looking for.


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## captainhits (Oct 2, 2011)

I have decided on the EP Chosera set. I think it fit's my niche perfectly. There's so many good things I am reading about it and so much positive feedback about it. With that said...



captainhits said:


> If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?
> 
> The Masahiros are from bedbathandbeyond so they have a lifetime no question return policy. So I do have the option If I decide on something different, or a 10" chef vs 8".
> 
> Are you saying reprofile because when Im honing if there is 80% on one side it will be difficult to hone the 20% side to keep it true? And sorry to sound stupid but the asymmetry has nothing to do with the angle degree the knifes are sharpened at correct? It's just a larger bevel on one side? I was looking at this page which describes each edge http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifeedgetypes.shtml are the Masahiro's asymetrical flat? "The edge tapers on the straight line from both sides, but the angles are uneven. Used for more durable edges, sacrifices sharpness." What edge do you recommend?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

EP: I've only done a few knifes and my EP technique is still climbing the curve. Along the lines of "early days:"

It's great for me when I'm doing lots of knifes. I thought set up and take down would be more annoying than they are. Because my coarser two water stones are long soakers (preferably overnight), it takes a lot less time to get ready. Call overall convenience _vis a vis_ benchstones a push.

In terms of taking a lot of time and care to do one or two knifes, I can do better freehanding with my other kits -- especially if I add stropping on top of one of the stone kits. However, "better" here is more academic than real. An 0.25u diamond finish is only going to last so long under the best of circumstances; and with all of the deburring it's a helluva PITA to get there.

Some sort of tool and jig is the only choice if you want a very precise micro-bevel on top of a fairly precise back bevel; I'm told the EP does this well but haven't tried it yet. I mean to do it on all of the Sabatiers as soon as I'm really confident I'm making the best flat bevel the kit can do.

The Chosera stones cut for the EP are more pleasant in use than the EP made stones and tapes; and seem to cut finer/faster than their nominal EP equivalents.

Looking at the various EP Apex prices and options, I think Kit 1 and the Chosera kits are the only kits which make sense.

BDL

PS. My other kits are (1) Oil stone - Coarse and Fine Norton Indias; Soft Hall's Arkansas; and Surgical Black Arkansas. (2) Water stone - DMT XXC (flattener only); Beston 400; Bester 1200; Chosera 3000; and Naniwa SS 8000 (soon to be replaced). And (3) Strop set -- 2u on balsa; 1u boron on balsa; 0.5u CrO2 on balsa; 0.25u diamond on balsa; unloaded horsehide; and unloaded felt. In addition I also have a worn "fine" Henckels 12" rod hone; and a HandAmerican 12" borosilicate glass rod hone. Safe to say any problems aren't for lack of equipment.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

All Chosera is a very good set indeed.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

IMHO as a now ''experienced noob'' lol you, me, and most others new to all this just simply over think and complicate things way toooo much.

I am finding that it is in part from each individuals personality etc, but also a result of attempting to find the best answer to this exclusively from opinion and review on the net

Trying to compare stones, their performance, and all the little differences without ever using one is tough if not impossible, but also impracticle with nothing to compare with personally.

Trust that most everything the guys here suggest is good advice (it really is) but know you really have to jump in to know what the water is like, and until you do it is all just second hand info, and not your own experience

So pick a set out (all the stones discussed have more potential than you will likely be able to fully utilize for a while) and then get busy! After a couple times around your set you will be much better preparred to discuss any additions since you will have a base to compare with

Also I really like my 6k arashiyama/tekano sp? For all kinds of reasons you will understand soon after using any of these stones lol.

Just do it!


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## joostbaksteen (Aug 28, 2011)

If your still looking for a beautiful magnetic bar, the Mag Block might be something for you.


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