# Controversial Question...



## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Why does it seem like more and more people are asking us to do their homework? I can condone consulting a bunch of chefs/cooking enthusiasts for assistance with a really tough question *that a student has tried to work out for him/herself but became stumped over.* However, I don't see this practice being any better than college students downloading papers from the net and claiming to have authored them.

Any thoughts?


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Heck Chiff, we've all wondered the same thing. I've just taken to pretending some of the posts aren't there. :blush: Bad of me I know. But I believe in exhausting all avenues before posting anything. And usually after I post Im STILL scouring trying to find the answer! If someone here just gives me a definition its not guaranteed that I will understand the ACTUAL process...so what's the point!?

I'm not gonna give someone advice and say something stupid like "I know a great book called Webster's Dictionary". Id get in trouble here just for being THAT cranky. If Im cranky I just avoid the posts....if Im in a happy happy mood I may just answer one. It doesn't seem fair for ME to be the one beating myself over the head trying to solve someone else's problem. Especially if they aren't gonna lift a finger and just watch me complete their assignment. I don't even do that for my little sister and she'll be in college by September. 

Jodi


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Thank you Chiffonade, great thread! You have just expressed my private thoughts. I concur with everything said so far! There's a fine line between doing their homework and acting as a guiding light...


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

hmmmm.....well....since i believe this comment is directed at me i guess i should respond.

The questions I recently posted were the result of preparations I"m doing for a COMPETITION...not any sort of actual exam nor really having anything directly related to my studies at school. Since the representative from our state last year also attended my school she passed along the package of information she had(and was not required to return), which included what she was required to do so that I might have an idea of the types of things I should be practicing and preparing for.

I have been most fortunate that the chefs at school have spent a great deal of time with me outside of class preparing for this. I average about 10 hours per week with them working on things that I might be expected to do. I've been trying to pick every piece of information from that their brains that I'm able to. 

There were two issues with which the chefs could not come to a conclusive answer:

1) what a "parmentier cut" might be. Like Cape Chef and others here they had never heard of such a think in classical cuisine and were at a complete loss. My attempts to find the information came up with nothing, though apparently I was looking in the wrong place

2) what in the world the people who designed last year's competencies were thinking asking for the types of things they wanted prepared from only one chicken. There isn't any right or wrong answer to this question - at least that was the conclusion I came to after discussing the matter for a couple hours with two of the head chefs at my school...and being impressed frequently with the knowledge oof the folsk on this site I was curious what others might think of the conundrum.

So if I have overstepped the bounds of this forum I apologize. It was never my intention to have anyone do any of my work for me(though I am still quite grateful for marmalady for the help on the parmentier issue, as well as to everyone who took part in that discussion...i found it quite interesting and informative). 

I'm not a young person and have always taken my responsibilities to heart. I certainlyhave never in my life set out to do anything unethical such as stealing exams...if the impression is otherwise i apologize.

i will return to lurking and refrain from posting as I have had learned a great deal on this site and for that am grateful.


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## fodigger (Jul 2, 2001)

I must have missed the thread you spoke of so I revisited it to see what all the talk was about. I too pulled out my skills book from j & W and there they were. If I remember correctly CC didn't you also so graduate from J & W about the same time as me I think. Don't tell me you either forgot or didn't have to take that God Aweful skills class???? Cutting the same cut over and over just to have the chef instructor pull out his ruler to find that you were a 16th of an inch off? I still laugh about it with my employees when they think I'm being to picky.
Although the posts seemed to be about Ziggys post for me it was the flood of posts we had a couple of weeks ago in which I felt they were basically asking us to do their homework I did'nt feel that was the case w/ Ziggys post. Just my humble opinion.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Had nothing to do with Ziggy! I don't even know WHAT exam Ziggy is talking about!  Has more to do with the slew of questions we have been getting from people DEMANDING answers.  Here's our question....ANSWER it! 

Shutting up now!

Jodi


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Dear Ziggy.

Before you return to lurking as you said, because of a comment it was made, always look who made the comment.It matters who made the comment.


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

No, you would be wrong. Collecting information for a competition is different from asking for answers on a test. I'm referring to those posters who preface a question with, "I have an exam on...and need an answer."

I was trying to avoid this but here's an example: "What is the acid in waffles." Crack open a book read the ingredients and _figure out_ what the acid is! Don't ask someone to _give_ you the answers. (I was foolish enough to suggest an answer before figuring out I was doing someone's homework.)

Make no mistake about it...on tough catering assignments and for input, I've visited discussion boards many times! However, *the preparation that resulted was ultimately performed by my hands.* This is also true in your case...You can collect all the advice and input in the world, but your performance will be the final act by which you are judged. In the case of a student asking for an answer, that student will be credited with something put on paper that a teacher assumes came from the student's work. Not true.

I don't consider clicking on a discussion board "research." Furthermore, what good will it do a student who has collected "answers" from people when it comes time to apply this information in a practical situation...They'd be sunk. I hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding that this was directed at you.


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

And by this you mean........?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Having been an instructor at the community college level, I have one real issue toward modern day students and it's a gross generalization: many don't seem motivated to pursue their questions by going to the library or engaging in group discussions. Our society is turning very ALLITERATE. Don't people read like they used to?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Fodigger,

Yes you are correct about J&W, Motor skills was my very first class at school 

Ziggy,

A couple things, first, I was not at a lose for parmentier, I made it quite clear of how it is applied in classic cuisine.

We must really think why we log into cheftalk in the first place, to exchange ideas, be innovative and support our collueges and friends.
The fact that last month we were hammered by both French and Austraian students sent a ripple through the whole site, and it was discussed in the moderators forum.

The idea of doing someones homework was very clear to us that this would not be at all benifical to us, nor the student.

I have learned a great deal from this site, and because of this site I have really enjoyed hitting the books and doing research.

I will always stand for helping and teaching those in need of help (short of doing thier work)this site is much more then just recipes, it encompasses a much broader stroke of our industry. For this reason alone, we owe it to our friends and colleuges to assist them with there concerns or if they are not quite sure about something. It is important to "mark" your words when replying to a post, Ziggys post on Parmetier did one thing (of many) it opened a great discussion about classic cuts and preparations and how they have changed and how they are being taught in school. This to me was another great oppurtunity to learn and to share.

If someone asked us in the recipe forum if we can share a great salsa recipe with them because they feel theres is not up to snuff, shouldn't we help them out?

There are and where students on this site that posted excellent questions throughout there tenure in school, it was our pleasure to be invovled with there culinary evalution.

I am not here to "give away" answers to students exams, but, I am always willing to read a post and make a personal judgement call.If the post is fair, I will help...


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've ranted directly to students in other forums.

Two things. First, a rule could be added to the joining agreement concerning students. Put it up at the top of the list so people have a chance to see it, even if they don't read the agreement.

And a possible boilerplate answer to such questions.

It could use some refining. 

Phil


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

:bounce: Leave it to Phil! 

Glad to hear so many of you agree about the "quickie" way students are trying to meet the requirements of their courses. Giving away the answers to a 20-something culinary student will do them just as much good as it did the something-teen math student in high school. Not a good idea, then or now.

Again, I hope we can count on one another to collect and share ideas and techniques to be applied either professionally or at-home. Most importantly, through this broadening of our horizons, and by practical application, we learn.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Please help me. 
I am doing my thesis for school on dehydrated water. Where can I find a recipe that calls for dehydrated water and what is the ratio I should use? Also what should I do with the newly hydrated water?


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Only you Chrose! :lol: :lol: Only You! :lol:


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## ziggy (May 14, 2001)

chiffonade - for whatever its worth when i read your original post i didn't believe it was actually directed at me and did understand why it had been posted. It was Funny Tummy's comment that prompted me to respond. I do remember the flood of questions not long ago( i post very infrequently but have read this board daily for nearly two years now)....I do not however remember any of them mentioning having materials from previous years. I do know that I specifically mentioned I was had been studying last year's compentencies while preparing...

For this reason I responded here - to me it seemed my integrity was in question. As this has never been an issue for me personally or professionally I felt the need to speak my peace on the issue. As I mentioned I have never intentionally done anything that might be construed as unethical and it saddens me to think I might have been perceived in such a way.

cape chef- my apologies, i chose my words poorly. your wealth of knowledge of course brought a lot to the discussion in question. I did not mean to imply you were clueless on the issue.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Chrose you are too funny! 



I did homeworks for too many years and I am not encline to do someone else's homework.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

We are here to share by asking and answering. Ziggy, my take was that your inquiry fell into that category.  

It's the "Please answer ten questions about why you became a chef"- the full-blown interviews- that irk me, and the fundamental questions from culinary students. I forgive a curious amateur who's not working in a kitchen, being an amateur myself!

I am a 27-year professional teacher, and those posts were most likely sprung from pure laziness. My motto is, "Don't do for someone what s/he can do for him/herself." (Apologies for the awkward syntax...  ) My students groan, but they do the work and learn from their own efforts. I NEVER do their work for them!


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

ROFLMAO!! :lol:


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

You know chrose, I am very disappointed in you. Someone with your knowledge and ability should really know how to rehydrate water!!! Again I can't express my disappointment. I really am in shock.   

Talking about rehydrating water, my staff seems quite good at making water reductions! They put a pot of water on, salt it, leave it to reduce until it is about 2/3's gone, then blanch their vegetables. You would be amazed at the difference in flavor when you do that!!!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Dehydrated dihydrogen oxide should be handled with the utmost care due to unforseen effects. It's been known to sustain life, a cancer upon our delicate planet.

Astrocruiser over and out...


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

You know I'm really not that dumb. I was making a joke. Everyone with half a brain knows that it's a 1:1 ratio! Jeez.... 
Of course if you do a 1:2 ratio you get most rivers!


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Try de-oxygenated water. You could have a blast!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Chrose,

You should hold a summit meeting with _Martha_ as I heard she *makes* water!


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

What are the three degrees of performance reviews, from worst to best?

Can't pass water
Makes water
Walks on water[/list=1]

Uh, oh, we're getting a little gross.  :bounce:


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

What was the question again?


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

I now know for sure that ALL of you guys are NUTS! :lol: My kinda people! :lol: :lol: 

Maybe my pop should hang out with Martha! He's the only human I know who can actually BURN water!


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

One would have thought after reading this thread that there might be an end to it. alas I give you....http://www.cheftalkcafe.com/forums/s...&threadid=7253 
She starts off sounding sincere but ends with this...I about dropped my rehydrated water 
Lastly I ask you..if you live in France, of all places, should'nt the answers to the questions she asked be all around her?
Sheesh.....


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## alexia (Mar 3, 2002)

Wouldn't it be useful to transfer this thread to the Culinary Students board?  Or as she probably only reads the bits that answers her questions, you might post on the chocolate water thread.


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

I'm all for presenting a united front here. I will refuse from now on, to answer questions that appear to be short-cuts to homeword or tests!

1. These students will *never* be able to do their own research if the answers are handed to them on a silver platter.

2. They will not develop deductive reasoning *as it pertains to cooking.*

3. They will be getting credit for work they simply did not do.

Again, when pros or avid home cooks request assistance from their peers, it's different. The work you will be credited with is work you have done with your own hands. If we don't discourage this kind of cheating, it will never go away.


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

I know that I have been an "enabler" to some of those guys -- and I'll try not to, any more. And maybe there's an unhealthy dose of ego in answering the "Why did you become a chef?" questions that are clearly destined for a graded essay. (As if I were sooooooooo unique.) :blush: 

BUT: sometimes the technical questions really piqued my curiosity so I _wanted_ to do some research and find the answer for my own edification.

Would it be okay if we were to suggest information sources where they could look? If the general concensus is: _not unless they can demonstrate they've already looked_ -- I'll abide by that.

In any case, my guess is that we won't hear from those kids for another few months -- until close to the end of the next school term.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

~HIYA~ Everyone!!

I think this thread has opened some intersting issues, and alot of thought has gone into the posts.

We have had the oppurtunity to express our thoughts and concerns about helping (or not) students.

Perhapes it's time to re focus ourselves back into the world of culinary arts and what it represents.

Everyone has a differnt take on there definition of helping others,and there is no clear cut rule defining this.

I say to all the proffessinals out there, to step back, re-access & get back into food.

Not that these things are not very important, because they are, but I guess i'm more interested in your challenges or what you prepared and how it was recieved by your guests

How do you see this summer developing it's trends, and how can we as "Chefs" best service the needs of our custermers and still make a buck or two

PEACE 
Brad


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

What we are discussing here happens to be extremely pertinent. Cheating by students requesting information that will be presented as their own research should be discouraged at all costs. This is as important in culinary school as it is in med school. It's simply wrong.

As for "steering" conversation, it's best to let nature do that. This happens to be a discussion people are enjoying - and seem to concur with. Every so often this board starts to feel like a disciplinarian parent who shows up to slap the hand of a child. We're mostly adults here. This is the "Late Night Cafe" where so called "non-food" discussion is supposed to take place. We don't need shooing away from the water cooler by a hall monitor.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Hall monitor????


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Let me say I did not mean to offend Cape Chef. Over moderating alarms me and I have seen moderators driven to intervene on this board where it's really not necessary.

Any participant can make a decision as to whether or not to feed answers to a student - my personal opinion is that it's morally wrong and detrimental to the student. I sincerely hope some of the students who have been requesting answers *read this thread* and learn something from it..like the need to do their own work.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Ok,

I could ignore the questions posted on the board or answer them if I wanted. MY CHOICE! 

PMs I can delete.....no matter how annoying that was.

But when people start EMAILING ME! I think that is taking it a little TOO FAR. 

Am I the only one they are doing this too? I don't even know if my email addy is required to be on ChefTalk. 

Arrrgggh! This just make me so darn mad! I don't like being harrassed. If I don't answer a question here they have no right to email me at home.

Jodi


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Clearly I spoke too soon. Anybody care to have a look at the Welcome board?!?!?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Jodi,


When you are required to put in an email address on a form, you can always make one up.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

I tried that once on another message board and they checked it out. I had to register with my real one....thought that was how ChefTalk operated too.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Jodi,

I got lots of PM's.

You can "block" your e-mail address. Just click on User CP on top and Edit Options. Then, click on the YES option of the following question: *Hide Email Address?
Clicking yes hides your email address in your public profile, so that it is not accessible by other users.*


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Ok, Have hidden my email addy. I shall be email free. Ah ha ha ha ha ha.....  Now if I can just get into the Star Wars Episode II. Darn these swollen ankles.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

My two cents, for whatever it's worth, as a latecomer to this topic. 

1. The whole idea of Cheftalk is to help each other out questions, quandries, ideas.
2. As others have said on this topic, we ARE free to not participate in the seemingly mindless questions of students that were occurring often.

I do admit that I was getting a little annoyed at having to page down through a sea of 'what is this' and 'what is that' questions, from people who had no interest in the community other than getting their questions answered. 

I proposed to Nicko some sort of 'question/answer' forum, which would separate the questions from students from the rest of the forums. That way, if any member wanted to respond to a question, there would be a separate forum for it, and the questions wouldn't be interspersed with the other forum topics. It would solve the hassle of the 'litter' on the forums, and provide a place where - maybe - we wouldn't even have the repetitive questions that seem to occur so often! 

Just MHO.


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Your suggestion actually helped me come up with an analogy that will *clearly* demonstrate what assistance I (personally) would be willing to give, vs. what annoys me...

*Annoying question...* 

"What does _brunoise_ mean? Thanks..I have a test on Monday."

*Legitimate question...* :chef:

"I've been trying to make "X" for a week now. No matter what I do, *it curdles.* I've tried it on high heat and I can't for the life of me get the $*#& recipe to work. What am I doing wrong?"

Second student has actually *attempted* to do whatever the assignment is and is stumped and looking for guidance from those who have been there. No different than asking a professor for a bit of "steering in the right direction." First student is a lazy lump who's looking for the easy way out.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I never got any. You folks must be "popular." 

Kuan


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Chif - Exactly!


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

First thing I think when I get a pm is that some moderator wants to nuke me .


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

I am going to share my experience only because it has to do with adults.

I am a lecturer in Criminal Law in Athens University. I do not teach because I am young but I am responsible for the "Court Simulation"

We take BIG cases, we change names and everything and we play the court as actors do in theatre, I am sure you know the procedure that it's common in every Law school on the globe.

We train students to pose the correct questions.

In my "classes" , I have seen many cases.
I have met the lazy student who wants his/her job done by someone else.
I have met the cunning one, who wants to impress the professor, takes an innocent face and PRETENDS that doesn't know the answer but he/she wants to show off her character and interest.

Of course they will never make it in real life but I do not tell them anything , I leave them to discover this "nice surprise" by themselves... Pity I won't be there to see them ridiculing themselves in the court room, because I hate those people.

I have met the really hard working that stare at you in the eyes to see how they are doing and it's obvious that they are trying!

Posing the RIGHT question is the half in every science and art.

Remember the tales about the famous inventions! 

All of them begun by narrating how the scientist found the solution when he posed the RIGHT QUESTION

This is part of the learning procedure.

Those students where annoying indeed. I won't mention what I have done to help them and help the forum. I will mention that Pete( who is being threw a lot of changes in his life) spend his precious free time to trace their teacher to let him know of what his students were doing.He sent many e-mails to try to control things and REALLY help them and not just getting rid of them!

In this forum, all of us, having me first in row, we have been serious, funny and yes, ridiculous. 

We have narrated stories of our personal lives ( how many times have we been married, what tattoos we have, how we met our mates)

So I think that is fair that the least we can do with the newbies is to be TOLERANT and give a hand to Mezzaluna.

Thanks for listening

Vivian


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

You know ~A~, I met the Queen Mother a few times when I was little (long story) and you remind me of her. Not in a negative way, so don't take it as such. She had such poise, control and tact. Miss the old gal. Sigh!

Anyway, you are right about being tolerant. Someone has to tolerate US after all. Right?  Did Pete really do all that?  What a guy!  THANKS PETE! You're a reall sweetie. :bounce:

Jodi

Just reread you post. Finally I know your name and don't have to refer to you as a generic letter of the alphabet. Much better. Thanks Viv!


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Thanks Jodi 

It's nice to know that I reminded you of Queen Mother and not of a tramp that plays the lady


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## the saucy cajun (Apr 1, 2002)

Now wait a miniute! Shawtycat gets pm, email, AND has met the Queen Mother? I'm jealous!!!!! That's just too popular! Shawtycat, can I have your autograph? LOL
Shari, The Saucy Cajun


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

:lol: Funny SC!

All the above is true. My little island is part of the British Commonwealth and the royal family visits every couple of years. The Queen Mother loved to tour our schools and meet the children. I met her when I was 4 or 5 and then again when I was graduating from Primary School. She was kinda like a normal grandma....though she always smelled like powder  But she was a really nice lady and everyone down there is very sad that she's gone. 101 years old..we thought the old gal would live forever.  Im not unusual. Lots of kids in the West Indies have met one or another of the royal family.


Did you know that Roberta Flack lives in Barbados? Ive met her a few times at music lessons and didn't even know she was famous until I moved to this country. The astronaut, Buzz, who went up with Neil Armstrong lives there too.

Jodi


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