# Gellan gum advice



## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

[Hi there,

I am trying to work up a gellan gum set sheet, like a crepe, based on reduced veg. juice. What I have so far is coming out slimy. I am working on a two percent solution. I have not added dairy, as I would prefer to keep a more brilliant colour. Any advice is welcome,

Al
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## pirate-chef (Jan 25, 2012)

have you found any of the texturas books. the ones i have used in the past had a lot of base recipes and conversions. i will look for a link. any reason for gellan in particular? http://blog.khymos.org/recipe-collection/ this is where i found a lot of info. if you are still having problems i can ask around or look i know i have recipes somewhere we used to make a kind of transparent super thin gel sheet to drape over some of the courses


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi PC,


Yeah, the ratios I have tried were cribbed from Khymos. I was hoping for gellan because of the elastic quality of the gel, and its relative heat stability. I,think the trick will be use as little gum as possible, maybe using a little agar agar to add some strenght.

I am hoping to roll it around a filling of salt fish and wilted greens.

Any input, more than welcome,

Al


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Really need a few more details - what veg? or more importantly what level of calcium (ions) does it have?  Also what gellan are you using LA or HA?

If it's slimy you have several things to look at.  Using less gellan will help but only to a certain point, it might work for your combo though.

A few ideas to try...

- Make sure you keep the liquids above the hydration point of the gellan and liquid you are using. Improperly hydrated gellan = slime.

- Make sure that you have enough available ions (calcium) to convert the gellan; you don't need to use dairy - leafy greens, fish sauce, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium lactate or calcium gluconate.

Since you're using it to wrap fish i'd try first with the fish sauce (it is really a weak calcium additive though - but it might work) maybe the leafy greens depending on what veggie juice you're using.

- Are you hydrating the gellan in a separate step and adding to the juice? or just adding the gellan to the juice reduction?   Always try to hydrate it separately - lessens the variables.

- Is your veggie juice low in Ph or high?

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Not sure if this would work but it's how i'd start out and then 'tweak' from ...

Hydrate your gellan in distilled water @ 75 celcius - start at 0.3% solution

Ensure you have 0.04% calcium available in your juice reduction

Combine the two - vacuum to remove any air bubbles

Spread very thinly on acetate and cool.

ymmv


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Michael, 

Thanks for the tips!

I had not tried hydrating the gellan seperately, that seems very sensible.

I am using a juice of red chard stems, so we are in the leafy green territory. I will check on the available calcium. I do have some calcium lactate around, so I can try that as well.

When combining the slurry and the juice, should I have them both at 75 degrees?

I am using high acyl gum

Thanks in advance,

Al


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

OK with HA Gellan you probably don't have a problem with available ions - the HA Gellan is much less sensitive than LA.

I also looked up swiss chard (cooked) and it has a decent amount of calcium available.

With these two things in mind it's probably not what is causing your problem.

If heating your juice to 75 degrees will not harm the flavour then I'd suggest doing that to reduce 'variables'.

You should be able to add the hydrated gellan to the room temperature juice but you may experience the gellan setting before it properly disperses in the juice.

The exact temperature that it sets will depend on the amount of ions / acidity / salinity and sequestrants in the juice.

Best to just play it safe and have the juice close to 75.

An important thing to record is what temp your mixture sets at this will be very helpful when repeating the dish, as it answers many of the above questions and will allow you to shorten the process (steps).

PS - nice combo of flavours...  Salt fish with wilted greens wrapped in a chewy red chard wrapper! 

Sounds like a play on the classic summer roll if you add a few glass noodles and maybe some wilted mint with the greens.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Michael,

I ran a test last night. I bloomed the gellan and agar agar at three percent and two percent respectively in water heated to just under 85. I got the 85 from the Fat Duck Cookbook. I sheared this ina highspeed blender and chilled it in the fridge through dinner service. I heat some juice and added the gelling mixture (gel monte?) in ten gram incriments. At about 40 of gel to juice I started to get a smooth, flavourful gel. No slime in appearence or in the mouth, and remarkablely clean vegetable flavour. So even if I cant form my rolls I will have a pretty awesom looking and tasting flud gell. Or I can cut the gel into squares and go with a tian. Lots of backup plans.

Thanks for,the comments. For the record this is for a one off early spring menu. While I am known for BBQ around here, this was advertised as me doing something "molecular" so I kind of have to use a few bells and whistles. In this market there is no glut of,this sort of thing, so for most of,the customers it will be things that they have only seen on TV. Funny enough, I could,say the same thing about southern Q three years ago when we opened. Now there are three other smokehouses in town, not including our second restaurant!

Oh yeah, I think I will just use the circulator to to heat both mixture to 75 degrees before final combination

Thanks again,
Al


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## pirate-chef (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you for opening this! really nice to follow and pick up even more. i have moved away from the molecular some lately and actually really miss it. things are so nice and precise.


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Glad you found something to work with - I'm going to keep looking and when I get a 'free' day off i'll try some tests on getting a wrapper done like you originally went for.

It has piqued my interest.

The thing I love about cooking so much is the ability to change directions (as you have so aptly done) in mid-stride and take the dish off on another tangent.

Let us know what you finally decide to do and include some pictures please!

/cheers


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks again,

Its the morning of the day and I have wussed out and am going to present the gel as a fluid gel und the salt cod. While I did get a sheet that I think would have worked my tests at rolling it last night left me with a problem. Namely that in order to properly cover the filling I would need to use so much gell (in terms of thickness and of length) that it would kind of overwhelm everything else. By pouring a thiner sheet it kind of just looks like an obscure and weird tint on the fish. The redness is lost. In addition I now seen the plates that this course is going up on, this would get crowded fast.

Anyway, kill your children, as they say.


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## pirate-chef (Jan 25, 2012)

love the concept. its always good to have these things in mind  they may pop up to save a day at some point.


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Just came home from service. I dont know if it was the best meal, or service, I ever did. But it was certainly the best received. Total hit. I am so glad that I went the route the route I did rather than trying to push a concept I wasn't ready to. It do think the concept could work, it will just need more than the two days I had to work with it.

Thanks again to Pirate and Michael. This really is a great place to bounce ideas around. And thats because there are great people to bounce them off of.

Cheers,

Al


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

Great to hear it went so well, I love it when a plan comes together!

Congrats!


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