# First time sharpener, can a knife be too bad to practice?



## schuster (Apr 21, 2009)

I've never used stones to sharpen my knives but I'm going to start. Obviously I want to practice first before I take my Global chef's to the stone. I've read an exhaustive amount on this forum and many other places. They all suggest practicing on a knife that you aren't too worried about damaging. My first question is, can a knife be of low enough quality steel that practicing with said knife will give me a false sense of failure? Years ago when I headed off to (non culinary) college, my parents gave me a cheap *** knife set. Probably 20 bucks for the set of 4 of them at walmart. If I run the chefs or boning knife on the stones, will I be able to get good practice? Or is the steel so cheap that I won't be able to get a good edge? I figure if I can get to the point where a cheap knife can become razor sharp, then I can take my good knives too it. If the cheapy knives aren't a good option, my girlfriend has a Calphalon santuko that I could practice on. I'd rather not screw up her knife, even though replacing it is easy enough. Suggestions?

Last question, where do you buy your stones, and what is a complete set? I use my knife at least an hour or two every day. I'm probably going to be sharpening it once a month once I get comfortable. As mentioned above, my chefs is a Global if that makes a difference in your opinion. I've read a lot about optional 5000# grits and all that stuff. I don't want to have to use seven stones. I want to use two or three, I want those two or three to be able to sharpen everything from german steel to japanese steel to french carbon steel, as I'm planning on buying a Sabatier soon. I could stretch it to four stones if absolutely necessary. I don't want to spend a fortune, and less maintenance for the stones is good. Any suggestions?


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## theautomaton (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmm. I don't know. I think you should be able to practice on the cheap knife, assuming that it's still in reasonable condition. I think it partly depends on how good you get with sharpening. I remember many years ago my mom had an abundance of cheap, horrible knives. Just horrible. And my father was able to sharpen them to the point that you could have sliced your hand off right at the wrist with no effort. Of course a week later they would be as dull and useless as ever, but he could sharpen anything. My mom however could sharpen away on those knives all day and they'd still be the same as before she started. I have to admit that I haven't practiced much with sharpening and so my little tale might be completely worthless and wrong, but that's all I got. Good luck. Practicing on the old knife certainly couldn't hurt...


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Bad Knives: Yes, speaking from experience of precisely this issue, a knife can be too terrible to learn much. The main thing to watch out for is a very cheap knife blade that is extremely thin and flexible. You can spend a very long time with these things and have minimal results. This tends to get you into the habit of using a lot of force, which is a very, very bad habit in freehand sharpening. 

I would recommend that you look around for a stiff knife with a thickish blade. Ideal would be carbon steel. Try a big yard sale or the like: lots of people have piles of knives like this in a drawer that they never use, so they turn up at garage sales. If they're rusty, pitted, and that nasty dark-gray color old carbon gets when maltreated, these knives can be extremely cheap. You should be able to find one for just a couple of bucks. The only problem is that it may be so dull that you'll spend an hour on a basic 1k stone just to raise a burr; you might want to see if you can get someone to put a preliminary steep grind -- 15 degrees maybe -- onto it, which shouldn't cost more than another $10 at most.

Stones: As far as stones go, I would recommend either a King 1000 or a King combination 1k/6k. It's an easy, forgiving stone, and also cheap. If you don't get into bad habits of using a lot of force, it also won't dish quickly, especially with carbon steel.

Furthermore: You're worrying too much. Sharpening is a lot easier than you think it is, unless you're shooting for perfection. Since neither the Global nor the Calphalon is capable of perfection, you really don't have to worry much. Starting up with a cheap carbon knife is certainly less nerve-wracking, and if that's a big deal for you then you should do it that way. But very quickly you will see that doing a decent job is not difficult, and that "screwing up" a knife is a great deal less likely than you think. If you're not absolutely in a panic, start with the Calphalon and don't worry.

You've read a lot, so you know about things like angles and stuff. Let me give you one piece of advice that, for me at least, has turned out to be sort of the master-key. Don't press hard: let the stone do the work. The harder you push, the more you'll dish your stone, and the more chance there is of actually doing damage. Gentle stroking is your friend.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Some really poor knives simply won't take or hold a decent edge, and therefore are a waste of time to practice on. That's not completely bad- it's unlikely you'll screw up a decent knife so badly that it can't be repaired. Fixing your screwups can be really educational, too.

Um, just don't practice on your new Hattori KD!:lol:


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

That's why there's coarser grits of wet/dry sandpaper. 200 or 400 is a good start. It shouldn't take long to raise a burr on even extremely dull knives or you're using the wrong equipment. Wet/dry sandpaper is CHEAP. Tape or clamp some over your normal gear.

Phil


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## bluesmkr63 (Jun 6, 2009)

Schuster:

I have to say I applauded your desire but question your sanity. Knife sharpening is a skill that is passed down through generations and would in fact take you years of practice to become even semi proficient. Chefs who tell you they sharpen their own blades are either very gifted, lying, or cant afford to have them professionally sharpened. I work with an entire set of Messermeister Maridian Elites at a cost of well over a thousand dollars. The edges are set at a 17 degree angle and must be reset by a pro. These blades are costly to replace. So, have your blades sharpened, and use your steel prior to each use, Wash your blades by hand and don’t use them on a poor cutting surface and you will never have a dull knife again.

Good luck with that 

James L.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Nonsense. I disagree utterly. The skill simply is not all that difficult, once you get past the myths and foolishness that have grown up around it.

For example, I could easily re-set those edges myself, in my teeny-tiny kitchen, in about half an hour. For giggles, I could then run them well up beyond the level of polish and refinement that anyone has ever put on those knives. I am not a pro, I have not been doing this all that long, and I am not supremely talented. I am also not blinded by the myth of generations of passed-down lore and the like.

For what it's worth, yes, 17 degrees is about right for your knives. That's because the steel in those knives is rather soft and will not take or hold a finer edge. The knives currently coming out of Japan, of which the Shuns and Globals are unfortunately somewhat second-rate and overpriced examples, can readily take and hold an edge well under 15 degrees; some sharpen under 15 degrees on one side and then simply deburr the other side, eventually producing an extremely asymmetrical blade with a total included angle not much over 15 degrees -- compared to your 34. And yes, even the Shun or Global will hold that edge, and anyone with decent hand-eye coordination can learn to maintain it, by hand, on stones.

If you really don't want to learn how, you can always buy an Apex EdgePro or the like and put it on there semi-mechanically; that'll cost a packet initially, but you will get beautiful edges once you get the hang of it.

If on the other hand you want to learn a little more gracefully, go buy Chad Ward's book on the subject and educate yourself. You will be shocked to learn just how many completely untrue things you have always believed about your knives and their edges.


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## bluesmkr63 (Jun 6, 2009)

And see there ya have. As I said, some guys know how to sharpen there own knives. As I wrote my answer to your question I knew it would draw an exception from someone. Chrisleher, Thank you for your quantification of the degree of angle my blades should be, and by all means continue on sharpening your own, However Schuster, after 30 years of professional knife use, I have seen some great blades "Utterly" ruined by a novice who "Really knows what their doing". But they are your blades and its your money, and this is simply my opinion. So Good luck with that.

James L.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm in near total agreement with ChrisLehrer (all except his opinion of Shun...). I hate to see the myth perpetuated that sharpening is some arcane cart bordering on mysticism. While becoming a master freehand sharpener does require a lot of patience and skill one can easily learn the basic proficiency. One great shortcut to learning is to seek out videos from some of the "masters." Korin sells a good DVD, as does Murray Carter. The most useful DVD I ever saw was _The Art of Knife Sharpening_ by Dave Martell. Dave's forgotten more about sharpening that I'll ever know!:lol: Watching him and hearing him explain things will take a couple years off the time it takes to get good. For a taste you can find a bunch of his videos on Youtube.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

According to Dave Global's generate wicked burrs when sharpening, so you may want to start with something a little simpler. Waterstones are the best I know of for sharpening, and nowadays there no reason to use oilstones anymore. There are lots of good stones out there; the sheer variety can be confusing. Bester makes a very good 700 that lots of guys use. Kitiyama is considered to be good, and lots of people like Shapton GlassStones. There's also the old standby, the Nortons.

I would avoid getting the lower grits on combo stones. Combo stones have one grit on one side and another on the back. This can save you money but the 220 grit will wear much faster than the 1k. A Norton 4k/8k is a good investment, though.

You will also need a method for flattening your waterstones. A waterstone sharpens very quickly because they abrade quickly, constantly exposing fresh stone to your edge. This will cause them to dish. There are lots of methods to flatten them: media applied to glass, a stone flattener, sand on cement, etc. I like to use a DMT DiaSharp XXC.

I will also put in a plug for the Edge Pro sharpening system. I have an Apex and really love it. Sure, I enjoy practicing freehand but it's hard to beat the EP. There's a bit of a learning curve but not too bad.

Have fun and good luck.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

BTW, a pretty standard set of stones would be the following grits: 220, 1000, 4000, 8000. For stainless Germans there's not much point to going much over the 1k or 4k at most. Good J-knives will respond to polishing with grits as high as 30,000! For most stuff I'd say a 220, 1k, 4k & 8k will suffice. You could save a bit by buying a combo 4k/8k. A 220 is very handy for very dull knives and for fixing chips & broken tips. 500 to 1000 is a good starting point for most knives.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Phaedrus: I think that set is really unnecessary. For a beginning sharpener, 1k is ideal: fast enough not to be infinitely frustrating, but slow enough that you're very unlikely to screw anything up. I like the combinations that are 1k on one side and something higher, usually 6k, on the other, because that allows you to play with polishing. By the time you've worn out either side of such a stone, you'll know what you want for an upgrade.

If you're building a full set of stones, which will start to run into money, my opinion is that you have to figure out what's your favorite stone. Some people adore their 1k stone, and then they build a set around that. What you do is you figure that you want your jumps to be at least a factor of 2 and not more than a factor of 6. So going up from 1k, I'd try a 3k and a 10k, and I'd go down with a 220. That will cover everything nicely. Myself, I adore my 6k stone, so I went 800 - 2k - 6k - 10k; below that I bought a 400 because it happens to be a fabulous stone, and I didn't go to something higher than 10k because I don't feel like shelling out the change.

Bluesmkr63: My point was not "I can sharpen so you're wrong." It's that there is nothing particularly arcane or even difficult about doing one's own sharpening functionally, even well. There was a time, not so long ago, when a great deal seems to have been largely a matter of lore. One of the many positive effects of the advent of Japanese knives into the Western market is that a great deal of this lore has been exploded. Now it is easy to get solid, reliable information and good equipment.

The other thing is that I have heard, time and again, about "I've seen people completely destroy a knife because they didn't really, really know what they were doing." I don't believe it. To destroy a knife, if you have any clue whatever about sharpening, takes malice, stupidity, or gross negligence. It's just not an easy thing to do. You'd have to use a pretty low grit stone, for one thing, and then you'd have to make a point of grinding at weird and irregular angles, and then you'd have to do it quite a long time. Otherwise the worst you could really do is to make the blade slightly wavy and seriously blunt. Okay, so re-grind it to the shape you want, put a decent profile on it, and sharpen away. With most soft Western knives, you're looking at an hour of work, tops; Japanese knives perhaps slightly longer, but not by much -- unless you're trying to do it to a single-beveled knife, in which case you're looking at about 3 hours. Beyond that, the only way you could "utterly destroy" a knife would be to break it, and any fool can do that without a sharpening stone in sight.


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## bluesmkr63 (Jun 6, 2009)

OK, I see I needed to be very literal when I'm voicing an opinion. by using the term utterly destroyed I was referring to the Knifes edge, which "if you have any clue whatever about knives" would know can be ruined simply by repeated use on a steel or glass surface. however, I assumed that we all knew a razor edge could be placed on a tin can lid of someone had the time and equipment to do so. As stated before you go right on and take the one to three hours (your words not mine) it takes to put a new edge on your blades and don't re post and tell me it takes you less time because you are the chief knife sharpening expert hear at the Chef talk after reading half of your post you proved my point already. As posted before Do what you want, I'll do the same.....


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm afraid I was being literal as well. Blunt is easy -- lots of folks who post here could readily fix that in half an hour, me included. I am hardly the expert on this or any other forum; for that, check out Buzzard and BDL especially. I assumed that by "utterly ruined" you meant just that -- ruined. And yes, that takes longer: you have to completely reshape and regrind the knife, which is a big deal and a lot of hard work. But it can be done. My point being, you really have to do an enormous amount to a knife to destroy it, so if you're starting to learn to sharpen, don't panic -- everything is fixable.

I'm not really trying to argue with you as such. Schuster and many others are coming into this hearing a wide range of opinions. Yours is by no means uncommon. For example, Alton Brown informed us on his TV program that "you should never, ever sharpen your own knives. Professional chefs send their knives out to be ground, and so should we." Lots of people feel that way. If you do, go ahead -- I have no beef with that. If you get the edges you want by those means, what's the problem?

My objection, to you and to Alton Brown and others, is that one does not need to do this to get excellent results. You wrote, "Chefs who tell you they sharpen their own blades are either very gifted, lying, or cant afford to have them professionally sharpened." That's just not the case.

Sharpening is something that anyone with decent hand-eye coordination can learn to do at home. Passing facility you can get within a week, and you can get really quite good in a matter of months if you work at it. It is an absorbing and gratifying hobby for many home cooks. For many professional chefs, it is the unquestionable best way to get precisely the sorts of edges one wants for a given knife and a given cutter. If Schuster and others wish to learn this skill, they can get a huge headstart by reading Chad Ward's article on eGullet, after which they might look at his book or the videos made by people like Murray Carter.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

Then he hands them to a guy who sharpens them free hand on a belt sander. Now, that's a way to ruin a knife in a hurry.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Maybe we're both reading the OP differently. I agree that a really aggressive stone isn't a good idea for a beginner, but I took him to mean "what stones would take care of nearly any situation." IMOHO there's no substitute for a coarse stone, except maybe a belt grinder, for certain jobs (eg fixing a broken tip). If he sticks with sharpening he'll want one eventually.

It's tough recommend stones since everyone likes a different feel. For instance some people love Shapton's GS's and some think they feel terrible.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I see what you mean. And if he's going to get Japanese knives, as he should, he's going to chip them every now and again until he gets very proficient indeed. Fixing a chip with a 1k stone is no fun at all, although it can be done.

If I had to use only one stone, I'd use a 1k/6k combination, but the first stone I'd buy in addition would be pretty coarse, maybe a 220 pink brick.

dscheidt 
:lol:
I must say, I wish Alton Brown wouldn't say stuff like that. He's a smart guy, he should know better. What he _should_ have said was, "there is no need to sharpen your knives at home. Lots of top professional chefs send their knives out to be sharpened, and so can you." That's a statement we could all get behind -- James and I would both agree with that one, for example.


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## schuster (Apr 21, 2009)

All,

Thanks for all the comments. My global chef's has deteriorated to nigh unusable and I'm using a cheapish santuko as a backup. I've read Chad's article many times over and I understand it as much as I could from just reading. After reading through the replies, several things come to my mind...

1) I use my knives roughly 12-15 hours a week. That's nonstop use time, not just cut something, put it down, cut something a few minutes later. I mean several hours of breaking things down. 95% of the time the knife I use is the chefs, most of the prep I do is vegetables.

2) I'm on a very limited budget. I'm in the process of buying a house, worrying about paying the rent on my current apartment at the same time, and have to deal with the recent debts that many mid 20ish folks aquire.

3) I have absolutely no idea about stones. Everyone seems to recommend one or another, but no one ever seems to say why. I still can't fathom the various grades. I get that a 6k stone is finer than a 1k stone, but they all seem to have different grades and it makes it **** tough to figure it out without trial and error. Which brings me to the next point....

4) Given the budget and little knowledge of stones, what should I buy for now and later? Honestly I have no problem with running a knife on a stone every night if I have to. Things like this are relaxing to me. It's a nice wrap up to a busy night. I want something now that will keep my knives usable, and I want something later that will allow me whatever I want them to be.

5) Some have said that knife sharpening is cryptic and it takes a lot of practice. I'm fine with that. Assume that I'm willing to put in a LOT of practice, because finding dulled knives around my parts isn't that hard nor is it expensive.

Thanks so much to all who have contributed so far. At work, Chef swears by a pull through sharpener, and though he insists his knife is very sharp, it's mediocre at best. The rest of the kitchen staff has either followed his lead with their knives, or don't care one way or the other about having a good knife. It's tough to find good advice these days, I suppose.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

For the moment, skip the entire discussion of profiling. My one objection to that article is that he puts profiling so front and center that you don't realize how rarely you'll ever do it. For your Global, I'd start by using the factory edge, which I believe is about 15 degrees, which is fine. Just put the knife on the stone and lift the spine until the edge just barely bites, and grind there. Eventually, you may want to set a new edge, or you'll want to do it to another knife, and then you can do some profiling, but wait until you have a reasonable familiarity with the basic sharpening process and feel like buying a coarse stone.

Speaking of which...
*Grits: *Different broad types of stones are graded differently in terms of grits. Japanese waterstones are graded very consistently, and the numbers we've been bandying around refer to their system. The grit refers to the number of little abrasive bits in a given space, just like with sandpaper. Few big grits grind faster and coarser than lots of small grits.

Very roughly speaking, you can divide stones into coarse, medium, and fine.

A *coarse* stone, from about 700 downward, is extremely aggressive and takes off metal rapidly. It will leave a "toothy" edge, meaning that if you look at all closely at the ground metal, you'll see definite scratch-marks, which continue right into the edge itself (though there you need to look through a glass to see them). As a rule, a coarse stone is for fixing things: a new knife may need a new profile, a chip may need to be removed, the edge may need reshaping because of a screwup, whatever. Rarely would you want an edge like this for cutting. Stones like this are cheap to medium-cheap.

A *medium* stone, from about 800 to 3000, gives a mildly toothy edge. It is aggressive enough that you _could_ fix a knife with it, but you wouldn't want to -- it takes a long time and a lot of work. The scratches these stones leave are fine enough that you will have to look for them a bit -- they're not obvious, like with a coarse stone. If you've used a coarse stone first, you use the medium stone until all the coarse scratches are gone and all you've got is the medium ones. An edge like this is good for most cutting work, and ideal for the more brutal things. This is because those scratches make the edge just a little bit like a saw, so when you move the edge through the food it chews through. If your knife is in basically decent shape, you start here, not with a coarse stone. Stones like this are usually fairly cheap.

A *fine* stone, above 3000, essentially polishes out the scratches. At high grits, like 10k, the stone will leave a mirror-like shine, so fine that you have to look under a powerful lens to see any scratches at all. As a rule, stones like this are not very aggressive, and they tend to wear relatively rapidly (see below about this point). An edge like this is primarily desirable when you want extremely smooth, clean cuts. For example, a yanagiba for slicing raw fish into sashimi is normally polished very fine indeed, because you want the fish to be perfectly smooth, and any hint of "toothiness" will tend to catch the flesh and deform the slice. For what you describe, I doubt very much you want an edge like this, though it is worth remarking that Kyoto kaiseki chefs, the unquestioned Japanese masters of vegetable cookery, polish their vegetable knives (usuba) very fine; then again, their cutting techniques are quite different from what almost anyone else does. Fine stones are generally somewhat expensive, and can be very much so.

*Wear and Flattening*: A synthetic waterstone is essentially a bunch of abrasive grit bound with a glue and baked into a brick. When you sharpen, the grit comes away as a slurry on the surface of the stone. This slurry is essential to the process on a great many stones, and generally leaves a somewhat finer edge quicker than with a less "muddy" stone. But because this slurry is coming off the stone, the stone is getting worn away, and what's more it's becoming uneven. An uneven stone produces poor results for sharpening. Thus you must flatten your stone before using it. There are expensive and cheap options for this. My favorite, and I think BDL's, is a sheet of wet/dry sandpaper laid on a thick piece of glass on a countertop. You take a pencil and make some rough cross-hatching on the stone surface. Then put the stone on the sandpaper and grind around, changing directions and grips often to keep it random, until the pencil marks are gone. If the stone is basically flat to begin with, this won't take long.
Sharpening the same knife every day is almost certainly unnecessary unless you have rotten cutting technique or a terrible knife (which the Global is not).

Based on what you describe as your use pattern, I'd start with a Norton or King 1000 stone, whichever is cheaper. I just googled the King, and found this place selling them for $24.50. You can probably find it for a little less, but you'll also find places selling them for a lot more -- don't get taken! I have heard good things about the Norton but have not used one. The King, the most popular stone in Japan, is reasonably aggressive, not very muddy, slow to wear, and extremely easy to use. Just drop it in a bucket of water about 20 minutes before you want to use it and you're good to go. The edge you get will be perfectly serviceable by most pro kitchen standards in the West.

I had been recommending the 1k/6k combo stone, but it doesn't sound like you have any need for that kind of polish, so I'd say skip it. If you get to like sharpening, you can always get a 6k later.

Your second stone purchase should certainly be a coarse stone. The common favorite among sharpening mavens appears to be what's called a "pink brick," a very durable 220 stone. Somebody here probably knows the actual brand name of this thing so you can search for it. It will cost about the same as the King. (If you can't find it, let me know and I'll ask somebody where you can get it -- I don't know US retailers because I'm in Japan at the moment.)

If your Global is unusable because it's dull, you can certainly sharpen it on a 1k stone, though it may take a little while the first time. That's OK, though: at this point, you're better off taking longer than using a super-fast stone. That way if you do a stroke really way off, it'll make very little difference; a fast stone can do damage fast. Once the knife is basically OK, you can probably keep the edge sharp with just 5-10 minutes once a week.
Once you get the hang of basic sharpening, which won't take long, set aside 20 minutes every day at the end of work, like you suggested. Sharpening is very meditative and relaxing, so use it. Every day, check your chef's knife to see if it needs work, which it may very well not. If not, go through the rest of your kit. If everything is sharp, put a decent edge on a house knife. In time, you'll get very fast and smooth, and the knives in the kitchen will be getting seriously sharp. If you actually do this every day, in 2 months you will be very, very good at this.

Apparently what usually happens next is that Chef decides maybe you're on to something -- so you should sharpen his knife (he's not going to!). If you're lucky, others in the line may ask you to show them how to do it too, but don't count on it.

By this point you are likely to be something of an addict. Danger! From this point on, sharpening becomes much more fun... and much more expensive. My suggestions for a further stone when you become a nut is a 6k synthetic Arashiyama: very muddy, rather soft, leaves a beautiful edge. It'll cost about $75 or so.

Pretty much the premier synthetic stones now are Naniwa Chocera's, known in Japan as Cho-Ceramics (choseramikusu). They are very expensive, but they produce remarkable results, and are generally agreed to be the most like Japanese natural whetstones of all the synthetics. Natural whetstones can be extraordinarily superior to any synthetic, but you really, really don't want to know what they cost. (Hint: I've seen one for $35,000, no joke.)


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

Many people here recommend waterstones, but waterstones have a number of defects, that their supporters attempt valiantly to make into an advantage. The primary fault of waterstones is that they're designed to wear. A waterstone is an abrasive in a ceramic matrix. As it's used, the rather friable abrasive breaks up, and forms a mud on the surface of the stone. That wears the knife edge down (good, that's the point of sharpening) and the waterstone down (bad, because you're not sharpening a stone.). The breakdown of material from the surface means they become unflat, and waterstones don't work well when not flat. 

Fortunately for us, we live in the 21st century, and can do better than using artificial sandstone. There are a number of companies that are making first rate diamond stones. They're made up of a large number of very small diamonds embedded into a metallic surface. They're expensive, but not outrageously so (prices have come down a lot in the last couple of years). They're flat, they stay that way (they're very good for flattening other stones), and if not abused, good ones will last the rest of your life. 

I'm fond of DMT's dia-sharp line. This is a continous surface of diamonds (the more common sort of little dimples of non-diamon area. They work fine, but don't do well with tips and small tools). to start, you'd want a coarse and fine. DMT do a two-sided version, which is good deal (about $50), but only 6X2. the 8" ones are nicer, but more expensive, and they don't make any combination stones that size. ther'es also an 11" series, but they're really spendy. Add an Extra-fine when you feel the need.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Here's a suggestion that won't cost you a dime: click here and don't stop til you watch all of Dave's vids. That will answer a lot of questions about technique and some about stones. This guy knows his stuff! The free stuff here alone will get you started out on the right foot.

Plus, read and reread Chris' previous post- he's dead on the money.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yikes! I assume from your opening volley that you're picking a fight (in a good natured way!), and so obviously you're expecting a rebuttle! First off, all stones dish- oilstones & waterstones alike. And none of them work as well when they're dished. What you overlook is that it's as easy as eatin' flapjacks to flatten 'em again. You can use a flattening stones, sand-on-concrete, even your beloved DMT Dia-Sharp (which, coincidentally, is the only thing the DMT is useful for!).

Besides, you_ want_ the stone to be friable- that's why they cut so well! You constantly have fresh abrasive. A stone is a consumable- it's made to wear. That said if you use it properly stones will last quite some time. The really coarse ones wear faster but if that's a problem, just get a really big one like the pink brick.

Double yikes! Modern waterstones are a technical tour-de-force; just look at the ceramic-on-glass GlassStones from Shapton. I don't think any other technology can equal waterstones, especially the newer breed of synthetic. ESPECIALLY NOT...

I have to ask, what kind of knives are you sharpening that you get good results with the DMT? I find it's only useful for stone flattening and occasionally thinning a knife, but I never use it on the actual edge. Diamonds seem to leave deep scratches disproportionate to their rated grit level, scratches very time consuming to polish out. They also seem to wear fast when used on softer knives. The explanation I've heard is that the metal wraps around the diamond particles and rips the out of the matrix.

Obviously everyone's experiences are their own, and if you get good results more power to you. But I don't personally know any pro sharpener (that's knowledgeable about J-knives) that finds diamonds useful in day to day sharpening. The sole exception I can think of is in liquid solution for stropping, and then only the really fine ones (eg .5 or .25 microns).

EDIT: I do know of one guy that swears by 'em, a crazy (in a good way) Russian guy. He has a lot of vids on Youtube and is a regular at BladeForums, but he's not a pro. Seems to get good results with hunting type knives...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

With traditional Japanese knives, the knife sold semi-sharpended; it's assumed that the final edge will applied by the Chef. Such edges will reflect the Chef's personality and style. Sharpening is part of cooking in that school. J-knives made for Western consumption will be serviceably sharp, but that's an concession made for Western cooks.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

LOL!:roll: I remember that episode. Still, in the hands of an expert a belt grinder can do an astonishing job. No less authority than Dave M advised me that a leather belt with compound will do a better job than I can do with a strop.

A tool is just a dumb thing; all the Art lies with the user. A skilled sharpener can get an _insane_ edge with a belt.

_Results matter, not rules._


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I agree with you about 95%. A few very minor quibbles:

1. The practice you describe is not limited to "traditional" (I assume you mean single-beveled) Japanese knives. Rather, Japanese knife shops normally sell knives semi-sharpened.

2. Although it is certainly not uncommon for professional chefs to finish their own knives rather than have the shop do it, it's not uncommon to have the shop do the work. This service is normally free.

3. Some chefs do indeed sharpen all their own knives, but actually the use of "house knives" is a great deal more common than people imagine. I constantly read -- in Japan and elsewhere -- that Japanese chefs always have their own personal set of knives (as if that weren't true of French chefs). But this isn't nearly as ubiquitous as is usually said. A big kaiseki restaurant or something usually buys a big stack of knives more or less annually, everybody uses them according to task, and every day or two the sharpening labor is assigned to somebody, who has to sharpen everything.

4. The quite serious issue of "opening" a knife, i.e. taking a semi-sharpened knife and making it ready for high-level use, is these days largely confined to a very few knives or to hard-nosed traditionalists, who are rarer than you might think. It's most common with yanagiba-bocho (pointed sashimi knives). Thus one might buy 50 knives in one go from some top maker, and specify that the yanagiba are not to be touched, but please do go ahead and finish the rest of the knives.

As I say, minor details.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

Oh, I'm sure the guy who sharpen his knives did a fantastic job. That's what he does for a living, after all. Belt sanders are great tools for sharpening; the long belt means that the abrasives don't get hot, and they don't generate as much heat as people think. It's just the idea of saying "sharpening is so hard, you can easily screw up your knives.", and then prominently featuring a guy using tools that can screw up your knives super fast.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

I've used diamonds on anything with an edge. Work fine. if you're getting deep scratches, you're pressing too hard. Same with damaging them. The amount of force required is very low, quite often *less than the weight of the knife*. 

Professional knive sharpeners are not really the best experts. They have a vested interest in making what they do seem hard. Most them have (or at least act like they have) mystic beliefs in how to do things. And, of course, they all have to pretend that a human can do a better job an edge on a knife than a machine, which is laughably silly. 

Talk to a tooling engineer if you want to know about sharpening things, with no mystical nonsense. I know a bunch; none of them use anything but diamonds.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Setting aside professional and otherwise, I've never heard of anyone recommending DMT plates for anything other than relatively coarse work. I thought the extra-fine plates were in the 10 micron range or something, about JIS 1500 or so? There's no mysticism in wanting to go a great deal higher than that.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

If you're talking about a really expert sharpener (eg Chico Buller, Dwade Hawley, Dave Martell) then I'd say they know a _helluva lot_ of about sharpening. And few people know what works like they do, seeing as they've done thousands of knives each. And they're also the last guys on Earth that try to make it sound 'mystical'- Dave will bend over backwards to try to teach you what he does. You'd think they'd be close-lipped with their secrets, and maybe some guys are, but most of the best sharpeners I can think of are also some of the most generous with their time & knowledge.

As for a machine sharpening a knife, do you mean one that works all by itself- like you hand it a blade and it hands it back sharp? I don't know of any device that can do that, and certainly none that can do even a mediocre job. There are devices like the F. Dick line of powered sharpeners and machines from Chef's Choice, but they require minimal human interaction (ie you hold the knife), and no one could keep a straight face while claiming they do as good a job as a skilled human.

What are your engineer friends sharpening? And what results are they trying to achieve? Knowing that would probably explain why they choose diamonds to sharpen.

There's no particular reason that an engineer would know anything about sharpening a knife; do you think Jeff Gordon's pit chief can drive his car better than he can? An aeronautical engineer or ballistician could calculate the trajectory of a bullet or a basketball without being a decent shot with either.

A tooling engineer or metallurgist can describe in detail how steel behaves, and some of them even understand how an edge performs, but at the heart of it sharpening is making both bevels meet neatly in the middle (for a 50/50 knife, for those inclined to be smart-*sses!:lol. While that's not mystical, doing it in practice takes, um, _practice_. No engineering expertise is required, nor will it help you make a knife sharp.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It's interesting that you actually get to see this every day! So many of us do constantly hear "this is done in Japan" but few of us get to see it. I think a lot of us feel like every Japanese kitchen working is a sharpening master, just like people think they all know karate!:lol:

It's really surprising to me just how few of my fellow chefs are really _into_ knives. Even some of the most knowledgeable of them use Wusthofs or Henckels. I've seen several of them shocked at how much sharper my beater Tojiros are than any of their Germans, and while I do keep them quite serviceable I don't really go nuts sharpening them. For many culinary professionals knives are just tools, not really different than pans and ovens.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

And they all moonlight as ninja assassins, of course.
I will say that in high-end restaurants, on the whole, knives are a rather bigger deal than they are in the West. But on the other hand, they're not generally much like knife nuts imagine.

Where the fetishization of Japanese chefs and knives has it all dead right is in the centrality of knives. Pots and pans are nothing, nobody cares. Big money is going into the dishes, which you hope will last more or less forever, but those aren't kitchen equipment as such. Hotpoints and equipment are fairly trivial, because they're really not used all that much by comparison to a Western line: remember, no saute station in Japanese cuisine.

I don't think it's really fair to Western chefs to say that they don't care about it. It's just that the Western chef's focus is rather more dispersed. I suppose you could say that if you take the Western chef's total interest in almost anything in the kitchen that isn't actually food, and focus just about all of it on knives, you have the traditional Japanese chef. Already probably 1000 years ago -- I mean that literally -- the chefs who cooked for elite households were commonly referred to as _hochonin_, or "knife-men." By the early 17th century, there was a definite distinction between _hochonin_ and _itamae_, guys who stood "in front of the board." The former were well respected on the whole, the latter not so much. But notice how both terms are about cutting. That's what chefs are, in older Japanese thinking: guys who cut.

You know how "to cook" basically means to heat things up, or anyway that's sort of the first connotation? So in the West, a cook is basically principally associated with fire and heat, deep down. In Japan, it's cutting instead. That's both very different and not very much so: lord knows both all Western cuisines and Japanese cuisine are about a lot more than fire and knives. But there's a grain of truth in it. And I think that's much of why Western chefs test technique with things like omelets and Japanese ones do it with knife skills.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

I can second using the Apex EdgePro sharpeners. You can get a repeatable edge time after time once you get used to using it.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

Yet, you've got at least two pieces of mysticism in that very short piece. One, that grit size is really a meaningful measurement. It's not, especially between different materials. Shape of the abrasive and its orientation (and how consistently that orientation is maintained) is a bigger factor. Second is the idea that fineness of the abrasive is a major factor in the keenness of the edge. It makes it easier, yes, particularly when working free hand, because you can't undo as much work when you get the angle wrong.


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## dscheidt (Feb 27, 2008)

Phaedrus;267817
As for a machine sharpening a knife said:


> A jig or fixture of some sort, so that blade is held in a known alignment with the sharpening surface.  A human, no matter how skilled, simply can't hold a knife at a constant alignment. (Good sharpeners are really good, and you don't have ot be anywhere near perfect to get results good enough for the kitchen.) As you point out, the keenness of a knife is determined by how well the two bevel planes meet. (All knives have two bevel planes; 50/50 knives meet in the middle, others some where else.) The only tools that are routinely sharpened by hand are kitchen knives.
> 
> Various things. One designs blades for veneer peeling machines (they turn trees into rolls of paper thin ribbon, at high speed). Another does automated histology machines (they turn tissue samples into one cell thick pieces mounted on slides.)
> 
> ...


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

It may not be a "religious experience" sharpening a knife, but "using" a well sharpened knife can come close.

Remember, 99.999% of chef's knives are probably used by a human being (though some may question that they are all "human  ), not "machines". What works best for one "knife wielder" may not work best for another.

A "veneer peeler" and a microtome are both "machines", well, at least in a majority of cases.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hang on a second -- I think you're missing something here, or else you're misinterpreting what I'm talking about.

The point of going to very, very fine-grit abrasives is not to get a keener edge, if by that we mean that we want the planes of the edge to meet as close to perfectly as possible. Provided the abrasives aren't so coarse that they actually mar the planes, sharp is sharp. A perfectly sharpened edge on a 1k stone or a 10k stone is still a perfectly sharpened edge. That's not why you go up from the 1k stone.

You go to higher grits to get greater polish. For some, that's an aesthetic matter, but I don't mean that. If you sharpen at 1k, and look at the edge under a lens, you see scratches, which will be very evenly spaced if you've got a good stone and decent technique. If you now re-do this edge at 5k, those 1k scratches should be gone and have been replaced by very, very fine and shallow scratches spaced extremely close together. Now you repeat this at 10k, and you will be hard-pressed to see the scratches at all, though of course they are there. If you're nuts, you can go higher than that. Bear in mind that those same scratches are necessarily present in the edge itself, not just the planes that meet to create it; this mean that a 1k edge is "toothier" -- has bigger and fewer teeth -- than a 10k edge.

If an extra-fine DMT is at 9-10 microns, the scratches are at that depth and spacing. You can't polish them out with that plate: that's where the abrasives are. Some people are fans of polishing out scratches with something like hubcap polish, but my impression is that you have to have rather finer scratches than JIS1500 to make it work -- I haven't tried it myself.

The question is whether a polished edge does anything valuable in the kitchen. I suppose you will say that it's just "mysticism". It isn't. If you take a piece of soft-fleshed raw fish and slice it, with good technique, with an appropriate knife like a yanagiba, you will very soon see that it's for real. A 1k edge will tear the flesh: those teeth catch. A 5k edge will tear the flesh, albeit very slightly and subtly; you'd have to know quite a bit about the subject to notice, but I assure you it bothers serious Japanese chefs and gourmets. A 10k or finer edge will glide through the flesh. This is why you want an edge like that.

In point of fact, most knives -- Japanese or Western -- do not need an edge like that, and in many cases it's actually undesirable. Classical French technique with a chef's knife presumes that the edge will be slightly toothy, which means that a super-polished edge will actually work less well. This is why I suggested that the original poster lean on a medium stone, not a fine one: what he's doing with his knife will work better with a less refined edge. There are ways of cutting with a thin-bladed chef's knife that has been polished so that it will work better than a toothy edge does, but that means developing one's technique outside of the classical French pattern.

Would an extra-fine DMT plate work well for the OP? I have no idea. I was surprised by your recommendation, because it flies in the face of everything else I have read about these plates, but I've never used one, so I asked about it. I'm a bit surprised to learn that this makes me a mystic!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Okay, I think I understand what you were trying to say. But that's still hand sharpening- it's still human running it. And all a jig does is compensate for human weakness; it doesn't obviate human skill. An _Edge Pro_ or _Razor Sharp _is useless without a human hand running it. That's probably one of the biggest misconceptions out there, that devices like the EP are designed to replace a knowledge of sharpening.

But in any event, apparently we agree after all that no autonomous sharpening machine can approach the skill of, much less exceed, a human being.

Okay, that also makes sense. Neither of those applications have much to do with the way a kitchen knife is sharpened. Even within regular knives there are a variety of types of edges & sharpening methods.

This is getting a bit esoteric and off track- what were we arguing about again?


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## bluesmkr63 (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok Then, I'm quite sure you made you point (On the ease of sharpening your own knives) a few posts ago. But you seem to take offense when someone voices an opinion different from your own. That’s OK, I find that forums such as this often attract people such as yourself and that’s what makes America a great country, well, except I’m not trying to stifle your opinion. In fact, I agreed with it, all the while voicing an opposing opinion, which with out even knowing you can guarantee is just as "Expert" as yours. I can see by the lengths you go to exasperate your point, you have a lot of time on your hands, So like I said you go ahead on Oh, King of the knife sharpeners, Go In peace, Live long and prosper......:0) I’ll take my sharp knives, go back in the kitchen and be happy with being the Chef of my kitchen. And for God Sakes let it go man!


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Oh, God! Not the tiredest old internet _"I-don't-wanna-play-no-more"_ line!:lol: Fear not, I take no offense. We can agree to disagree and part, panties unbunched.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I wasn't going to even mention this, but I'm Chico.

I'd like to mention a few things lest I be misunderstood.

Yes, I enjoy sharpening. I find it relaxing. But in the past I've been criticized for joking about the word "zen." I would remind folks that my sharpening career as a professional started after I retired early and needed something to do. I was sharpening for my friends and my church kitchen, so one day I packed up and went to a sporting goods store. I met restaurant chefs along the way.

Second, I have my own favorite methods for each style of knife. That does not mean someone is wrong and I am always right. In many knife forums the very casual statement of "I like this" is unfortunately translated into saying "I hate everything else."

The fact is that I steal from everyone. I have two "Professional Model" Edge Pro fixtures. Ben Dale and I go way back. I even test prototype stones and polishing procedures for Ben--but so does Dwade, also a friend.

I also use 3x9 Japanese waterstones, glass, brass, paper, nagura, leather strops (and leather by itself), Shapton Glass, Mothers Motorcycle Pastes, and the complete line of fixtures from Keith De'Grau over at Hand America.

"Expert Sharpener"? Well, I'm a professional sharpener. I charge money for my craft. I don't do everything. In the trade I'm known as a "v-grind sharpener." More accurately, I am a 'tinker.' That means I repair kitchen stuff.

This label means I am more than a sharpener but I do not have the credentials of a Japanese sword polisher.

I actually came here to learn how to cook for myself. I have never been to a culinary school, nor do I even know to expertly use the very knives I sharpen. I'm actually quite afraid of the nakiris I sharpen, and with a *polished 8 degree edge*, we all should be!

I can give you an opinion on a knife, but that's about it.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Anyone any good steals from other people. What matters is whether you steal from people worth stealing from, and whether you give credit where it's due. You get high marks both ways.
I can't let this pass. What on earth do you use brass for? I mean, what does it achieve?
You should look into that. You know what those guys charge? $100 per INCH. Got that? $100 per INCH. Sounds like good money to me! 
Ever put a really proper edge on an usuba? Much worse. Polished 8 degrees _total_, because it's kataba (single-beveled). Terrifying thing when done right.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Brass can *sometimes* be used to burnish mars and defects. I have a tinkers' hammer with a brass head and a brass punch for tapping blade tips (with a slight bend) or re-seating handle rivets.

I have a steel unfluted 'steel,' but I can also use the smooth brass handle of my hammer.

Each knife can be a challenge. You use what works--or what you have brought in your case.

However, I have never taken a knife down past the angle of your average nakiri. In my neck of the woods we have 'Ginza of Tokyo' and a few sushi bars. A good gyuto and a sashimi knife are the most common 'victims' of my stones.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you. That's very interesting. I might play with that some time -- with a beater knife that has a blemish, just to see what happens.
Yes, I see. Makes perfect sense.

Okay, so you know how a sashimi knife is basically one-sided, with a slightly concave back and a big bevel on the front? So an usuba, which is a sort of old-school professional's vegetable knife, is not unlike a one-sided nakiri, that being an old-fashioned homemaker's vegetable knife. You have this huge bevel on the front of the blade, and nothing on the back, and of course that means there is a ridiculously small total included angle for the edge. Obviously to make this work at all well, the steel has to be hardened out toward the stratosphere, which means it can chip if you give it a really hard look. But in the hands of an expert, it cuts vegetables fast, clean, perfect.

I only mention it because as a professional sharpener, you might find it interesting to work on one. Not only is the angle ridiculously slight -- which isn't actually all that interesting after a couple of minutes working it on the stones -- but the line of the edge itself is straight like a ruler. THAT is not so simple. Think about it: how are you going to make sure that this ludicrously thin edge is going to stay ruler-straight as you grind the edge back?

Anyway, in your I'm sure copious free time, you might see if you can pick up a low-grade usuba for cheap, just to play with. In Japan you can get cheapies for about $60, so I bet if you looked you could get one for $75 or so in the US. I just think a pro sharpener might find it a remarkable challenge, not because it's so difficult -- it's not any harder than any other high-quality knife, and if it's not damaged you don't have all those concerns -- but because it's so darn odd. Just a thought.

(And, of course, I want to know what you learn, because I do find these things to be a raving pain to deal with at the stones....  )


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Yikes, if you saw me do "my thing" you'd have me arrested, or turned over to the Yakuza...

I believe that any edge should first be checked for uniformity. In this regard, I check edges with an Edge Pro (the 'Pro' model). I crank the thing down on a flat corian surface, and press the front peg as hard as I can with my thumb and "shake" the fixture. It cannot move or shimmy.

(In fact, Ben made me a very tight swiveling head for a longer adjustment post to sharpen chisel grinds, like Emerson products.)

During this procedure, I have a 3x9 stone in 12,000 grit steadied in a stone holder. I also have a Keith De'Grau's fixture with all three attachments--felt, glass and stone.

Along with this are pastes, other glass polishers, strips of leather, water by the gallon, a strong latte' for my courage, numerous rags for cleaning, etc...

As I lightly check the right side 'chisel side,' I also make a smooth, complete and metered pass over the very wet 3x9 stone on the obverse side. Back and forth. Glass if I need it, paste if it helps. More traditional methods may or may not be needed.

I had a Deba that became spooky sharp with this oddball procedure all by itself.

(BTW, this very procedure is a source of some extremely angry debates in many forums. It uses "non-traditional" thoughts, ideas and equipment. I know this. I'm not trying to denigrate anyone's beliefs. While it might offend some, I have a chef who finds this method superior.)


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's an example:


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Not me. As long as you're not putting a bevel on the back, and you're using the bevel on the front, I could care less whether your methods are traditional or not. Sounds like you know what you're doing, and I bet you get much better results than I do.

Which brings me back to the whole usuba question.

Now I haven't used an EdgePro yet, but so far as I can tell, it imparts a slight arc to the edge naturally, just through the swing of the stone. If the edge has to remain ruler-straight, isn't that a tricky thing to deal with? I can tell you it's a raving pain to do freehand as well, so it's not like I'm denigrating the EdgePro for this purpose. But I just thought a knife this peculiar might be fun for someone in your trade.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, don't tell Ben Dale this, but when I say "guided" system, I'm speaking more as a description than my actual function.

I dance around the machine, I press or drag, I lighten up, I swing the entire knife around, I re-ink, and sometimes I even set the knife in the freezer and use a strop. Whatever it takes.

My edges are true, v-grind polished edges, I see to that. While not a chef's knife, here's an example, and I do tape the entire blade to avoid scratches.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Knives are always taped to protect their cosmetic finishes and allow me the option of numerous hand holds and polishing compounds.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Very pretty edge there. Steady, even, isolated. What more could a guy ask?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

That is a term to which I am not familiar.

However, my overall point is this. You and I could use the same tools, on similar knives--get them both very sharp--and have *two decidely different* styles.

Ya' know, I didn't mean to have this go this long. My original idea was to improve my kitchen skills. Sorry if I'm boring you guys.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I just meant that the edge is it own thing, not blended into the rest of the blade. I like that. Not everyone does, but I do. No, that's not some kind of authoritative claim, just a personal preference.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Oh, I like it that way myself. On a knife with a black titanium blade it looks more professional than scratching up the cosmetics.

A v-grind is more precise, which is a great asset if you're cutting fugu.

Here's that nakiri. Look at the swipe mark that halved the cherry tomato. One stroke while I held it...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Hi, Chico. I'm glad to see you turned up here. Sorry to see the way things went down at "another forum"- pretty rediculous to see supposedly-grown men treating anyone like that. I'll say no more about that, so Welcome to CT!

I have been really pleased with a brass rod for deburring- the ol' Burr Magnet works like a charm.

I must say that even if you shy away from being called an expert, every time I listen to you, Dave or Dwade my edges get better.

This is a great site with tons of cooking info, some of it quite advanced. I think you'll like it here.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Phaedrus, do I know you?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, you do! Check your PMs.


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