# "Gravy" or "sauce"?



## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

I was watching an episode of Cooking Live while I was on the treadmill today. Sara Moulton had a guest with her who had won a competition for what I would call ragu: tomato-meat sauce with meats cooked in it for a long time. There was a spirited discussion about whether to call the concoction "gravy" or "sauce". Several people, including the prize-winner, call it gravy if there is meat in it; otherwise, it's "sauce". One caller said it was a regional name, but no one was sure.

I lived for 18 years in a town with a large Italian population, and never heard them say it was gravy. What's with the use of the term "gravy" for a tomato-based sauce with meat?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

In my readings, gravies are a subset of sauce. In general they seem to be a quick sauce involving the pan drippings but without much reduction and no skimming. Often a "rustic" and unrefined sauce relying on a starch thickener. 

As few tomato sauces are made in the gravy style that does seem odd.

The meat issue is a new one to me. 

Phil


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Mezzaluna,i`m interested in this item you have mentioned.My initial training,years ago,was in classical French cooking.
There were some Italian dishes on the course.To me,the sauce you describe sounds like a variation of Provencale sauce.The only tomato flavoured gravy i can think of is a jus-lie,which is slightly thickened.Maybe i`m getting old and forgetful,but i certainly would not see this item as a gravy.I`ve made more gravy than i care to think about!Some people here in Britain nearly drink the stuff!Leo.
:chef:


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

According to the *Epicurious.com Dictionary* which is based on the *Food Lover's Companion* all gravy is a sauce but not all sauces are a gravy.


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Cchiu,it`s not just Antonin Careme who refined sauces.Don`t forget Auguste Escoffier,who at the turn of the last century was in charge of the Savoy hotel on London.Escoffier was once described as "The king of chefs and the chef of kings".
His sous chef,Jean Saulnier,compiled the Repetoire de la Cuisine,based on Escoffier`s recipes,which is still used today for references purposes.Apparently,Ceasar Ritz was the general manager there at the time.Leo.


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## chefgbs (Jul 3, 2002)

My mother is an off-the-boat Italian and I once asked her if she called it sauce or gravy. She told me that it was gravy if the tomato "sauce" was cooked with meat. Marinara, which is meatless, is referred to as a sauce.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Hi Leo,

The above definitions are quotes. Thanks for sharing the additional information.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Classic alla Bolognese (the one typically served with tagliatelle) is referred to as meat-based ragù in many italian cookbooks.

The Americanized versions of Bolognese, or even the Canadianized versions for that matter, are much thinner, making them perfect with spaghetti.

Just my two cents...


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

The use of the word 'gravy' to mean a meat based red sauce seems to have originated with the New York Italian Americans (Correct me if I'm wrong!), who used the word to mean a long cooked, meat based tomato sauce, usually served on Sundays or special occasions. I've heard it referred to as 'Sunday gravy'. Perhaps Pongi can find an Italian 'root' recipe where it originated! Probably the abundance of meat here in the States as opposed to what was available in Italy, gave them the luxury of using all the different meats in this dish.

This is from 'The North End Italian Cookbook', by Marguerite Dimino Buonopane:

1 lb. sweet Italian sausage
2 lbs. meatballs, made up but not cooked
4-5 lean pork chops
1 lb. lean spareribs
1 lb. piece of beef or pork
1/2 cup olive oil
1 med. onion, chopped
1 garlic clove, chopped
pinch of dried basil, red pepper flakes, oregano, and mint
1 6-oz. can tomato paste
1 28-oz. can peeled, crushed tomatoes
1 28-oz. can water
salt/pepper

Brown the meats in 1/4 cup oil in a heavy saucepan, and transfer them to a platter. Add the remaining 1/4 cup of oil to the juices in the pan; when teh oil is hot, saute onion, garlic, and seasonings til transparent. Stir in tomato paste and blend well. Add tomatoes and stir til blended; stir in an extra 'pinch' of the seasonings. Add water til the sauce remains the thickness you desire. 

Let the sauce come to a full boil, add salt/pepper and more herbs. Return the meat tot he pan, simmer over medium heat, uncovered, for at least 1 hour or til all the meat is fully cooked and fork tender. Stir gently every 15 minutes or so, to prevent the bottom burning. 

Remove the meat from the sauce and place on a platter, cut in serving size portions. Skim the excess oil off the top of the 'gravy'. Serve the 'gravy' over your pasta of choice.

I learned a version of this when I lived in the 'Little Italy' section of Cambridge, Mass, way way back in the 60's  . The only addition was a piece of pepperoni, cut in bite size chunks, that was cooked along with the rest of the meat; it added a wonderful flavor to the sauce!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

WOW! That recipe really sounds worthy of a Holiday feast, Marmalady.

Would you mind telling us the name of that recipe?


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## chiffonade (Nov 29, 2001)

Gravy = Ragu. Usually somewhat long cooked, replete with meats and extremely rich in flavor. Courses can consist of an antipasto, pasta, and the meat served as its own course.

Referring to a ragu as gravy is a colloquial term used by many of my fellow (past and present) Brooklynites. We had "gravy" every Sunday with various types of pasta. Husband is from the west and thought I was going to serve a pot of brown stuff when I said I was making him "gravy" for the first time.

Heck, can you blame us for not wanting to call it Ragu?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Mezzaluna, I saw that episode too, awhile ago. MAN OH MAN you HAVE to make her gravy. I printed it off the foodtv site and have been making hers' ever since. IT'S A WONDERUL RECIPE, no wonder why she won! I think she mentioned publishing a cookbook on her own, I'd buy it.

Her meatballs are perfect. And the technique makes wonderful sense, cooks them just right.....

She calls it gravy and I'm not about to argue with her knowledge on the topic.


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Thanks, Wendy, I will!


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Kimmie - It's 'Sunday Gravy' - of course!

Chif - Thanks for the back up! I knew I'd hear from a native NY'er!


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

It's very hard for me to have an opinion about this question, firstly because I'm not familiar enough with the American culinary therminology, and secondly because the corresponding Italian terms of the words you mentioned actually have a different meaning.
A "salsa" (Italian word) is NOT just a "sauce". Our use of this term is more restricted and, independently from the ingredients, indicates something homogeneous and smooth, lacking solid parts. In example, a "tomato sauce" are tomatoes, cooked or not, with or without other ingredients, processed or pushed through a sieve to a cream. 
If the "sauce" contains pieces of anything, it's a "Sugo". So, your "meat sauce" in Italian is "Sugo di Carne"..or "Ragù di carne", a term which language purists hate as it has been stolen from French with a wrong meaning (a "Ragout" in Italian is a "Spezzatino") but which is extensively used.

But..what do we Italians mean with the word "Ragù di carne"?
ANY pasta sauce made of meat, tomato and vegetables, independently from the cooking time (which, in any case, must be quite long) and the size of the meat pieces...I mean that "Ragù" is the Bolognese one, where the meat is minced, but ALSO the Ragù Napoletano and the "Tocco" Genovese, where a whole piece of meat is browned in oil and then cooked in tomato sauce with its gravy for many hours, after which you serve the "sauce" with pasta and the meat, sliced, as a main course (as you know, pasta in Italy is not considered a main course but a starter).
So, the recipe mentioned by Marmalady is a real Italian one, although our versions are usually less rich in different meat types.

So, maybe I'm wrong but if you say "Gravy" I think to something without tomato and not to a "Ragù", a word that personally I'd translate with "Meat Sauce"...

Pongi


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

Sometimes with food i think that there can be a a lot of problems caused by 'translation' of food. In the Uk gravy is a meat based sauce used to pour over meat, mostly roast meat such as chicken, Lamb, pork etc,etc. Tomato would be in the gravy if it had been used while cooking the meat. Anything with pasta isn't gravy but sauce. My own opinion (based on my limited knowledge of languages other than English, rather than culinary abilities) is that once a 'foreign' food is used in a country, the descriptions for it will never be adequate, and sometimes it's best not to worry about it. 
I have just sat and watched a TV programme where a respected chef (who is magnificent with food) made a 'paella' in a flat pan which he continually stirred. What he made was lovely but it wasn't paella as they are NEVER stirred. Again the language that we have in English fails us, or Rick Stein made a Cornish Paella.


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

P.S. In Spanish Spanish (as opposed to Mexican Spanish, which I know nothing about ) everything that 'runs' is sasla. Chicken curry is 'chicken in curry salsa', anything with pasta is 'salsa'. Any kind of meat with what I would call gravy on it is 'salsa' in Spanish - a failing of the language in my opinion, but then in English we have a lot of failings too.


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## marmalady (Apr 19, 2001)

Rachael, in the States in general, the word 'gravy' is indeed used to mean a 'meat-based sauce' served over meat, and potatoes or bread. It's only the Italian-Americans who came to America who dubbed the meat/tomato sauce 'gravy'!


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## leo r. (Nov 10, 2001)

Rachel,i`ve seen the programme where Rick Stein made "paella".First he made his version of lobster stock,which contained saffron.Then he added squid,lobster meat,prawns,i`m not sure if they were Langoustine and monkfish.
He used Arborio rice,i wondered why,like you,did he stir it so many times? 
I would like to know where he got his recipe from?Leo.:chef:


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## rachel (Oct 27, 2001)

His head??? (or another part of his anatomy?) certainly not anywhere in Spain. But i would use arboro rice or any kind of risotto rice for paella as the Spaniards always use short grain rice. The only time I've seen paella with long grain rice is in tourist traps.


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

Just to add one more New York voice: yes, that red stuff is, indeed, "gravy." At least, that's what my friend Anne Compoccia, who was born and raised in "Li'l-Itly" and used to own a restaurant there, said. :lips: :lips: :lips:


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

could i perhaps add a comment.

The standard for "gravy" would be that the end product is either cooked in or originates from the raw product.

vis a vis: gravy is the pan dripping of the roast and thickened with a starch, et al

or: tomato is cooked with the meat adding to the sauce.

so, by my definition, if the meat in the dish itself is either cooked with or adds to the sauce (or by definition "gravy), then it must be gravy. If the sauce contributes to the dish, but is made from commodities apart from the dish itself, then it must be a sauce (i.e. a good example is demi glace - made from beef, but not from the dish or cooking metho itself.)

im open to opinions.


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## chef nosko (Feb 2, 2002)

The word "Gravy" for a meat based tomato sauce is a Italian American regional term pertaining to New York, and parts of New England. I first heard the term while attending Johnson & Wales University in Providence, RI. I also occasionally hear it in the Boston area.

I have lived in many parts of the US and have never heard the term used anywhere else, although I am sure there are people who moved away from these areas that still use it.

Imagine being invited to a Sunday dinner at someones home and having the host tell you that they are preparing "Gravy" for you.
And oh, by the way......we always serve gravy on this day.

It helps when you understand what it is.

I love being invited over for gravy.......or if I see gravy on a menu in Bostons North End I am not freaked by the description.

Now, if someone in Topeka, Kansas, or Walla Walla, Washington invites me over for gravy....then I may have to pass. Or, eat something before I arrive for dinner.

Chef Nosko
A Fresh Endeavor
Boston, MA


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## leisa m (Sep 17, 2002)

I am new to this board and am not a chef so what does "sous" mean?


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## suzanne (May 26, 2001)

The "sous chef" is the second-in-command in a professional kitchen. Very often has the responsibility for overseeing the actual cooking, while the "chef de cuisine" (the executive; in other words, the big boss of the kitchen) does the creative stuff. A sous chef may also handle some of the administrative work, such as ordering, taking inventory, training staff, etc. So the sous chef has to know every dish the chef comes up with -- what the ingredients are, how they are prepared for cooking, how the each component part gets cooked, and how the whole thing is plated.


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## pistol (Apr 23, 2011)

My family speaks Italian and said the word gravy can not be translated into Italian therefore it is sauce... My theory is when some Italians came here someone translated the word wrong and it stuck for some.. I like to stick to traditional ways and call it sauce.. It is a Condiment.. Gravy is American for meat and potatoes:O)   Tp me saying gravy sounds like Italian ebonics lol


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## lmari2228 (Mar 10, 2012)

I was born in Italy and have traveled to many regions there.  I have never heard of ANYONE in Italy calling a tomato based condiment anything that even resembles "gravy".   It is "salsa" "sugo" "ragu"...I've even heard of people calling it "brodo di pomadoro" which in translation means tomato soup.  I would take any of those terms as long as it is not called "gravy".   Please, if you are going to question it, talk to a real Italian...someone who was born and lived there.  Some person that was born in "little italy", unless they have lived in ITALY, would have no clue what to really call it.  "SAUCE"


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Imari,

How can an Italian know what a word is in English?  When an italian-american from the northeast says spaghetti with gravy, he means tomato sauce which may or may not have meat in it.  (Most american pasta sauces had meat so i think maybe that's why the term stuck for meat sauce.)

Of COURSE no one in italy calls a tomato sauce anything that sounds like "gravy" - because "gravy" is English and italians speak Italian! 

There is also nothing that sounds like the word "eggplant" in italian - they say melanzana.  So?  if i want to make eggplant parmesan, is that not an italian dish and is it not melanzane alla parmigiana? 

 I don't get it


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## sparkie (Feb 12, 2011)

" Your mama makes gravy, I make sauce!" A chef I worked for liked to say that anytime a server asked for gravy. It has since become a favorite saying of mine. I saw this as an opportunity to share it with you guys.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

The older Sicilians who arrived in New York on Ellis Island and some who still live in the old neighborhoods still refer to it as GRAVY. and if you hung out with the guys from Brooklyn or Queens they would invite you over for "Sunday Familia Dinner" where grandma made the gravy that she started to cook the day before. Marinara on the other hand is a quick sauce concoction that was started when the men signaled the woman on shore, with raised flags on their boats that they had a catch and were coming in.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I've never heard anyone, outside of TV Italians and Italian wannabes, ever call anything tomato-based _"gravy"_.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

I had never heard the term _gravy_ until The Sopranos on HBO!!

My husband is nuts for that show. His sister gave me the cookbook.


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

It's funny how the definitions depend on where you come from and what you learned while there!

For me - 

Gravy = any kind of pourable liquid that is based on the juices and seasonings of the item being cooked.

Sauce = any kind of pourable liquid that is made from scratch without the benefit of an item having been cooked to produce it.

---------

fair disclaimer - i've had a couple...


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Then you never lived or hung out in New York or Jersey or with wise guys. Although not his real name , they made a movie about a friend of mine named Donny Brasco!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

chefedb said:


> The older Sicilians who arrived in New York on Ellis Island and some who still live in the old neighborhoods still refer to it as GRAVY. and if you hung out with the guys from Brooklyn or Queens they would invite you over for "Sunday Familia Dinner" where grandma made the gravy that she started to cook the day before. Marinara on the other hand is a quick sauce concoction that was started when the men signaled the woman on shore, with raised flags on their boats that they had a catch and were coming in.


It is also known as Sunday Sauce pronounced sou-asse


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

IceMan said:


> I've never heard anyone, outside of TV Italians and Italian wannabes, ever call anything tomato-based _"gravy"_.


How old are you IceMan? How many real, old-school Italian-Americans do you know? My parents came off the boat when they were kids with their own families. Most of the food words they used were italian (sugo, brodo, melanzane), but most of their friends were first generation. I grew up with people who could have all been on the sopranos, though they weren't mafiosi, they just dressed, talked and acted at home like them. Never saw a better, more sensitively described view of italian americans, and being one, i know.

Most of these friends of my parents spoke no italian themselves, but their parents did. They all said gravy. all of them. They'd all be in their 80s and 90s or 100s by now if they were alive. I imagine some of their kids picked it up too, some of my friends over there still say gravy, but most of them have been influenced by television and the new cooking fads and fashions, and are using balsamic vinegar, sun-dried tomatoes and other similar stuff, which was unheard of then and will use sauce. Even in italy, except in the regions they come from.


Koukouvagia said:


> It is also known as Sunday Sauce pronounced sou-asse


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif sounds so familiar!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Koukouvagia and Siduri you both nailed it.

    A lot of yonger people on the site won't remember these things. My insperation to get into cooking was my grandmothers neighbors .They made the  wine, The Sunday  Gravy or Sauce , Brassoile, sausage and meatballs. One time even had a live rabbit in their bathtub which later became dinner. I used to help her get the things ready for cooking. Her son in law  Al  went on to form Aiello Dairies and became a huge manufacturer of Riccotta and Mozzerella in New York area. Son in law  also bought a dairy farm in Flemington New Jersey that I stayed at. This was when Flemington was all farms, very few paved roads . This was back in mid fifties. They were great times.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Oh they're still around Siduri.  You should hear the crazy stuff I hear down at my nearest Italian deli.

Supersot (sopressatta)

Mazzerelle (mozzarella)

Brozchooot (prosciutto)

All vowels at the end of the word are sleeping with the fishes.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

Koukouvagia said:


> Oh they're still around Siduri. You should hear the crazy stuff I hear down at my nearest Italian deli.
> 
> Supersot (sopressatta)
> 
> ...


LOL< that's how my husband says them … he's from Philly … I asked him if his family every used the term gravy and it was an emphatic, "NO ! People in Jersey and New York say that". It seems that there is quite the rivalry between them? I'D NEVER KNOW, braddah, I from Hawaii. You should see what they call Spaghetti there …. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/surprised.gif


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

And here in Sunny Florida  Lasagna is pronounced  Lazzagana, Bracciole is Brasseeolee.  Sopressatta  and Panchetta could be a disease , the natives  would not  know. Oh well this is only place I have ever seen Bologna and Soft Salami come in frozen


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you _*Siduri*_ for noticing something I have posted. Now to answer your questions ... I am kinda old. My 50th is coming up this Saturday. _NO_, I'm not Irish. I grew up with half my life being exposed to _old-school Italian-American Chicagoans_. Much of my family on my father's side actually *are* _"Soprano-types"_. I spent a lot of time in _"gentleman's clubs"_ (private associations) that did not include any nude dancers or any type of lap-dances. They were filled with grey-suited guys smoking cigars drinking regular drinks without any fancy names. I learned a lot of my Italian cuisine from this time of my life. I'll put my braciole up on the table with any. There will be none of mine left at the end of the meal. Anyway, including my time in Sicily, I've only heard the term _"gravy"_ used twice; once by _"Paulie Walnuts"_ on the _"The Sopranos"_, and once by a _Chicago-Irish_ co-worker trying to sound Italian. Also, I've never heard of _"Sunday sauce"_. Everything I ever made or ate was as good as it was _all the time, every time_. I'm not calling anyone out with this post, I'm just explaining what I know and have experienced. Thank you for listening. _Now back to your regularly scheduled programming._


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Bada bada boom,  forgetaboutit


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I'm usually listening, iceman/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Maybe it's just chicago.

My family was from tuscany, so they spoke real italian, if archaic. Prosciutto, ricotta, capocollo - but their friends were from "bassitalia" and had dialects, and the first generationers there all spoke americanizations of dialects. Pretty funny. Koukouvagia hit it. Boston is not so far from Noo Yawk!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

chefedb said:


> ...Sopressatta and Panchetta could be a disease , the natives would not know. ..


Haha!

What amazes me about Italians is that almost none of the Italian Americans I know actually speak Italian. It's like they move to America and let go of the language. It's quite different than Greeks. Greek american kids all speak greek, even 2nd generation. Greek is the only language spoken at home and everyone attends greek school. I wonder why there is such a big difference between the 2 cultures.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

KK, my Dad's grandmother was fresh off the boat from the Azores.

The family made sure that they learned English real quick and then it was forbidden to speak Portuguese.

Every once in awhile Grandma would slip and Grandpa would scold her.

When I asked her about this, she said, "We're Americans now".

My husband said that his family was the _exact_ same way from Italy.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

kaneohegirlinaz said:


> KK, my Dad's grandmother was fresh off the boat from the Azores.
> 
> The family made sure that they learned English real quick and then it was forbidden to speak Portuguese.
> 
> ...


I can understand that but it also makes me a little sad. It sounds like it was a decision made out of fear and necessity. It's not like that with Greeks, way too narcissistic. I grew up hearing my mother tell me on several occasions "you are not like those american kids."


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Koukouvagia said:


> I can understand that but it also makes me a little sad. It sounds like it was a decision made out of fear and necessity. It's not like that with Greeks, way too narcissistic. I grew up hearing my mother tell me on several occasions "you are not like those american kids."


Again, Koukouvagia, another similarity. My parents were the same. I think for many of the families we knew the immigrants had such a hard time in america that they didn;t want their kids to have the same hard time and be stigmatized, so they only spoke english at home. But my parents were a little different, and a later generation of immigrants, going over in the 20s. My mother would speak italian to me when she wanted to speak badly about "Americans" and not let them understand, and would speak Italian when she didn;t want me to understand when she was talking to my father about something i was not supposed to know. I could understand it but never spoke it till i came to italy.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

At work, the club I work for you Must speak English, which I think is very good.  If I were going to live in Italy or Greece I would do my utmost to learn the language, even prior to moving there as well as the customs.  I always used to tell the staff that" we are going to pay you in the currency of the language that you speak." My how quickly they learned  to speak english,


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

LOL, chefed... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

A few days ago I made tomato sauce with San Marzano canned tomatoes, but I added meatballs and sweet as well as hot Italian Sausages.

I must say that it tasted _WAY_ better to me and my American-Italian husband than a "plain" marinara or quick tomato sauce, if you will.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

kaneohegirlinaz said:


> A few days ago I made tomato sauce with San Marzano canned tomatoes, but I added meatballs and sweet as well as hot Italian Sausages.
> 
> I must say that it tasted _WAY_ better to me and my American-Italian husband than a "plain" marinara or quick tomato sauce, if you will.


That's what they call "gravy"


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Jersey Style!


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## karinasmith (Mar 21, 2012)

for pasta, i would have thought it was a sauce you use, like tomato sauce etc. I usually would associate gravy with dishes such as beef and chicken. There completely different things!

definitions;

Sauce - Thick liquid served with food, usually savory dishes, to add moistness and flavor

Gravey - The fat and juices exuding from meat during cooking. A sauce made from these juices together with stock and other ingredients.


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## davehriver (Jan 13, 2012)

My Nonnie who's parents came here from italy called red sauce gravy as do I.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

Let me ask you dave, are you from New York or New Jersey?

'cause it seems to me that that's where this all revolves back to

don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing

gravy or sauce, either way it says *DELICIOUS* to me!


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Not only new york, kaneohegirlinaz, but also boston - maybe the northeast.


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## davehriver (Jan 13, 2012)

My Nonnie was raised in Central Pa.  I was born in wash dc.  Her parents did come here from italy though.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

OMG (oh my gravy, HA!) talking about…

I buy my San Marzano canned tomatoes at Sprouts

They were $5.99/28 oz can!

Well, I guess I just have to bite the bullet

It taste good, it’s better than most of those jarred “sauces,”

And I can control the amount of salt, oil, etc.

And then I can turn around and make “Sunday Gravy” with the meats we like

Mangiamo !!


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Confession: me hates san marzano canned tomatoes.  I've tried every type I can find and still hate them.  Muir Glen fire roasted tomatoes are my top pick.


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## kaneohegirlinaz (Apr 24, 2011)

You know KK, I think that I could say that I’ve tried every brand of canned tomatoes that I could find, even store brands, and funny, I use the Muir Glen fire roasted for chili and some of my soup recipes and then the San Marzano (the one I find at Sprouts, forget the name off hand) for Sauce or Gravy if you will. 
Maybe there’s a Molecular Scientist in our midst who could explain that one…


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## mannlicher (Jan 8, 2006)

I have never heard sauce called 'gravy' in Italy.    That is just an American thing.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I live in italy, and it's never called "sauce" here either - those English-speaking countries, always calling things in english! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## shaunmac (Nov 3, 2011)

I think its an italian american thing. My family is pretty old school italian and I grew up calling meat tomato sauce gravy. Its just what I knew it as until I started having friends over when I was young and they were like wtf, gravy on pasta?

My grandparents were the generation that came over and spoke italian, not my parents, I'm only 20. But like many others here they quickly dropped the language, I don't know why and I wish they hadn't. I assume assimilation as mentioned earlier.

As to the sunday sauce and all that, we never really called it that but growing up at least 2 of the 4  sundays in a month my mother would start making gravy on saturday and sunday we had my grandparents and aunts uncles and whoever over for lunch/dinner. Also I feel i should mention my family and cousins are from CT just east of the city, because there seems to be some controversy around location and terminology.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Whatever I call it, it never comes. I always have to go and get it.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

siduri said:


> I live in italy, and it's never called "sauce" here either - those English-speaking countries, always calling things in english! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


Oh you Italians, get on the gravy boat already!


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## sparkie (Feb 12, 2011)

I know! Those Italians have a different word for EVERYTHING!!


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## longcolts (Jan 23, 2011)

Growing up here in Arizona as I did, we always called tomato based liquids (for lack of a better term) sauces.  But then my family are krauts so WTH do I know from Italian!  LOL


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## billera (Nov 15, 2012)

My Mom's parents came off the boat from Italy in the early 1900's and they never called sauce gravy.  They lived in New Jersey in Union City and in Canarsie, Brooklyn ~ my Mom never called it gravy either.  The first time I ever heard sauce called gravy was when I was in my 20's and my future mother-in-law called it gravy!!!  I was like, "What???"  Her mom came here with her parents when she was a teenager and lived just a few towns away in a town with a lot of Italians in Palisades Park, NJ.  My best friend from the time I was 5 lived across the street from me until we graduated from high school and her parents came here from Italy too (in Dumont, NJ).  Big extended family and I never, ever heard them call it gravy.  To this day, the only time I EVER heard that was when my mother-in-law would be cooking up a pot of sauce on Sundays and would call it that.  My mother also cooked the sauce, usually on a Sunday and so do I!!!  lol ~ 

My Mom says it is Salsa in Italian and it was misinterpreted when some Italians came to America.  Paulette also would refer to the sauce as a Ragu ~ but maybe that's because she would put a jar in there with the meatballs, sausage, pork or whatever else she would feel like throwing in there!  lol

Funny, but NY or NJ, my Grandparents were in Brooklyn most of that time (70+ years) and if any of their neighbors ever called it gravy, it didn't run off on my Grandma or any of her 6 children!!!  I don't even think I ever heard my husband call it gravy???   Just my mother-in-law!!!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

This question has been here many times before. Depends on where you came from, where you live now. It is also called Sunday sauce in some areas. In Brooklyn ol school it is Gravy. In Long Island it was Sauce. Call it whatever but it was good.


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## edwhitespace (Jun 14, 2013)

[h3]While there are many sources giving many definitions, I'll go with the first two I found:[/h3][h3] [/h3][h3] [/h3][h3]gra·vy [/h3]
/ˈgrāvē/



Noun



The fat and juices exuding from meat during cooking.
A sauce made from these juices together with stock and other ingredients.



I am of Italian descent and live in the Boston are with many others. Every Italian I know calls it gravy. Looking at the definition, it makes sense because even a marinara made by my grandmother started with browning meat (or salt pork in the old days) for flavor. Sure, a Bolognese meat ragu has plenty of meat, but most of the best gravy / red sauces I have had start with meat, even if none ends up in the final product.
[h3]sauce [/h3]
/sôs/



Noun


Thick liquid served with food, usually savory dishes, to add moistness and flavor.


Again, here the term 'sauce' does not seem to fit. It should be thick, never thin, and isn't used to add moistness. Sure it adds flavor, but every addition should, no? When I think of a sauce, I think of gravy I think of a hearty and thick addition, whether it be the red gravy served over pasta or meat or the brown gravy put on top of turkey. When I think of 'sauce', I think of hot sauce, barbecue sauce, Bechamel sauce, etc. Items not integral to the meal, but more of a prepared condiment.

For me and all the Italians living in the Boston area at least, "Its gravy, not sauce."


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

If its thick and sitting on top I don't go anywhere near it. How does the Olive Garden get it to be so thick anyway?


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## edwhitespace (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm not sure as I've never been.  No self respecting Italian does.  ;-)   And gravy, or 'red sauce', should always be thick (whether a hearty ragu or fresh marinara), NEVER be thin and runny.  My expectation of the Olive Garden is overcooked and poorly drained pasta sitting in a bowl of thin gravy.  Hopefully I am incorrect, but it's what I have come to expect with chains.


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## choppamike (Aug 27, 2013)

OK I joined this site due to all the responses. First off I am from Boston and I am 2ND gen. Italian American. My great grandparent on both sides were off the boat in the early 1900's. I do not know Italian and neither do my parents. My grandparents on both sides speak it with there siblings and to each other on occasion. I asked my fathers side (who are Sicilian and a lot tougher and strict) why did you not speak/teach your kids Italian? They said that they were taught that they were English and didn't want there kids to go through what they went through growing up. I am 36 years old and am lucky enough to know my great grandparents. My mothers father came over at the age of 12 in 1902, 75 years later I was born. My dad calls it gravy, mom calls it gravy only if there is meat in it (meatballs, sausage, lamb, and sometimes pork) both sides of my grandparents call it gravy. I call it sauce, a gravy in my opinion belongs on roast beef, turkey and potatoes. A white gravy goes on biscuit's and chicken fried steak. Fish is a meat, clams are a meat, shrimp is a meat. Clam sauce is started with a meat and you use the juices and other ingredients plus stock to make your sauce not gravy. A sauce does not have to be thick. That ones for you and everybody you know Boston. everybody should listen to the real Italians who live there and was raised in Italy. So thank you Pongi I will start to call it sugo di carne or salsa. Its time all you Italian Americans get back to your roots and learn your blood line. I am trying to bring bring Italy to America. I Make salami (dried sausage) mozzarella, ricotta, almond biscotti, and wine.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Families, groups, subgroups, cultures, subcultures, all speaking the same language use different words. How about tonic (what i grew up calling colas, fizzy orangeades, etc), soda and pop. For me a soda is a mixture of chocolate syrup, soda water, cream and ice cream. Pop is a word some people use for dad. Schwepps, we call "tonic water"

For me ice cream, milk and flavoring is called a frappe. A shake is only milk and flavoring or fruit.

In my family (in boston) we called the soft white bread bought sliced in packages in every store "American bread". "white bread" meant any bread that was white and not whole wheat, and in our family it was always some ersatz Italian bread.

So is it any wonder there are different words for the tomato stuff you put on pasta.

My parents, born in italy between 1910 and 1920, emigrated to Boston in the late 1920s,wth their parents, called it tomato sauce or spaghetti sauce or more often "sugo". My mother's family never ate tomato sauce on pasta - they ate soup. My motehr would get all huffy and superior when people would say "Oh you're italian, you must make great pasta!" She'd answer in her supercilious tone "WE don't eat PASTA, WE eat SOUP" and being Tuscan they usually did, though my father's family, from the same area, did eat pasta. It was just my maternal grandfather's quirk that he didn;t like pasta asciutto (that is, not in broth). For christmas, it was home made ravioli in broth. But we did occasionally have pasta with tomato sauce at home - just not as long as our grandfatehr was alive!.

How can there be a "right" way to call it?

Italian-american friends of ours would call it "gravy" when it was an important sauce, with meat, for a holiday or sunday. Others would call it "sauce"

I never heard an Italian in Italy call it "salsa" - only italian-americans. "Salsa", at least in Rome, means tomato paste, bought in a tube and used by the teaspoonful. But it could be a regional word for tomato sauce, i don;t know.

And of course, Italians, since they speak Italian and not English, do not call it either "sauce" or "gravy", but "sugo" - and "sugo" really comes from "succo" which means the juice or the concentrate (the "succo" of the matter means the essence of the matter - like "let's get down to brass tacks"). But sugo now means any sauce that derives from the juice of something, whether we're talking about what americans call turkey gravy, "au jus" or tomato sauce or gravy. They don't distinguish between them, they;re all "sugo" (or if it's a light au jus, they may say "sughetto" - little sauce).

So let's just keep our regional and sub-cultural words for things which are so quickly being lost in a too generic language without regional accents or character. i will always call fizzy drinks "tonic" and milk-and-ice-cream beaten up "frappes" and i will always pahk the cah in hahvid yahd. And call it "gravy" or "sauce" or "salsa" or "sugo" or zxfpkwx if you want. Just make it well, thick or thin, with or without meat, and mix it in with your pasta /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

And watch the great episode of the Sopranos where they go to Naples and are served a tomato-less clam sauce and he says "Hey, where's the gravy!? I want GRAVY!"


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

That was said by _"Pauly Walnuts"_. 


> And watch the great episode of the Sopranos where they go to Naples and are served a tomato-less clam sauce and he says "Hey, where's the gravy!? I want GRAVY!"


_... And everyone at the table _(not from New Jersey)_ considered him an idiot. _


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

IceMan said:


> That was said by _"Pauly Walnuts"_.
> 
> _... And everyone at the table _(not from New Jersey)_ considered him an idiot. _


true, Iceman, but not because he called it "gravy" but because he was so ignorant about actual italian food!


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_LOL_. You just kinda sorta made the point ...


> ... because he was so ignorant about actual italian food!


It's _"sauce"_ ... and not _"gravy"._


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## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

People on this thread use "gravy" completely different than me. In my experience, gravy is simply a type of sauce that is made by thickening some sort of base liquid or ingredients, usually with a roux made with meat drippings or butter, but often with corn starch or some other thickener. I have never considered whether there was meat in it or not because most types of gravy in the Midwest do not have meats in them, though they are usually made from meat drippings. An example of one that isn't is basic cream gravy, which is nothing more than cream, béchamel, salt and pepper. It is often made with sausage for sausage gravy, but is a gravy even without the sauce. Beef gravy, chicken gravy, turkey gravy and the like do not have meat in them though they are made from drippings. What makes them "gravy" is the fact that they are made using a thickener. Without thickener, they are simply another type of sauce.

I have always assumed the same about tomato sauce ever since I saw some Italians making tomato gravy by starting with a roux. I just assumed their use of the term "gravy" was the same as mine, that "tomato gravy" used a roux and "tomato sauce" was either reduced or thickened with tomato paste, although I guess "thickening with tomato paste" could technically make it fit my definition of "gravy".

For what it's worth, I make my beef ragu starting with beef dredged in flour, so my ragu would qualify as a "gravy" under my own definition since the flour on the beef thickens the tomatoes and sauce.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Actually, thinking about what i wrote, people call it "sugo" but also simply "pomodoro" - e.g. "spaghetti al pomodoro" means spaghetti with tomato sauce.  Probably "pomodoro" is more commonly used, and since there are so many tomato based pasta sauces, the others are referred to as "ragu" or "amatriciana" or "pummarola" or "alla norma", etc.


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## gravy queen (Sep 6, 2013)

Gravy to me here in England is pretty much the term used when you make it with the juices and or fat from a meat joint or chicken or turkey , thickened with flour and made with stock . Everything else is a sauce .


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## sicilianfigs (Sep 6, 2013)

I am a second and third generation Italian/Sicilian/American. Some of my family used sauce for tomato sauce and gravy for all the American type meat, juice type sauces, but some of the _older_ relatives who were either born in Sicilia or italia or came here young and early on called tomato sauce gravy. The reason fr this as far as I can tell is because when italian/Sicilian's first came here and especially to NY it was an early attempt to translate and communicate. I can just see it now. Thanksgiving dinner and American friends were hosting a gathering with their newly Italian American friends and telling them what they were eating "gravy" on their Turkey, a proud, Sicilian Grandmother says, " tomorrow - I will show you _*our *_gravy. I will show you a Sicilian "gravy" lol : ) Mangia!!


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## genemachine (Sep 26, 2012)

No such distinction in German either - it is all called a sauce, if you want to be fancy, or "Soße" in the germanized version. If in doubt, stick with the french. Jus for the drippings, sauce for everything else... They wrote the book after all....


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

To be clear, this is a linguistic issue that pertains only to the US.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>pertains only to the US.

ah,,,, not a good assumption.

various languages have multiple "representations" for "sauce" and "gravy"

none of which should shatter anyone's earth, anyway.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

In this particular case I don't see how the issue of tomato sauce being called sauce or gravy pertain to any other part of the world really. We're talking about the red stuff that goes on spaghetti.


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

Apart from gravies, made from the meat juices with a thickener and/or wine/stock, everything else I make (I'm Scots) is a sauce. 

I agree, it's a peculiarly US argument.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Ishbel said:


> Apart from gravies, made from the meat juices with a thickener and/or wine/stock, everything else I make (I'm Scots) is a sauce. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> I agree, it's a peculiarly US argument. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


And a rather narrow one geographically!


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## sparkie (Feb 12, 2011)

Sorry to bump a dead thread here, but this popped up on my Facebook feed today. Figured I may as well post the link here. This is Lidia Bastianich's take on sauce vs gravy

http://blog.lidiasitaly.com/2014/02/sauce-or-gravy.php


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## edwhitespace (Jun 14, 2013)

[h2]A) Definition of sauce [/h2]
Bing Dictionary

sauce
[ sawss ]

flavoring liquid for food: a thick liquid that is served with food to add extra flavor
- OR - 

[h2]B) Definition of gravy [/h2]
Bing Dictionary
gra·vy
[ gráyvee ]

sauce made with meat juices: the juices produced by meat while it is being roasted, fried, or broiled, or a sauce made with these juices or another liquid and poured over cooked meat and vegetables


The best gravies/sauces served with pasta start out with meat drippings and would have meat cooked in it to give flavor (be it meatballs, sausage, etc.). The worst are thin and watery. Assuming you agree, then it would appear the truer definition of the thick red tomato ragu served over pasta would be 'gravy' (as many Italian Americans call it) and not 'sauce' as many Americans call it. Unless you are eating a thin and watery one... in which case your opinion doesn't count. ;-)


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## acidlinktest (Feb 16, 2014)

I would call it sauce. But I don't know much haha. I think it would technically be a gravy?


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm an Italian-American from North NJ and we called tomato sauce with meat in it gravy. Pretty much every other Italian-American I know did and does as well. I personally always understood it was just something we called it and that it isn't the proper name, but pretty much every Italian in New Jersey and New York calls it gravy.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

> _... but pretty much every Italian in New Jersey and New York calls it gravy._


_e.g.:_ *"Paulie Walnuts"*


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## schllac (Nov 12, 2006)

What is soft salami ?


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## schllac (Nov 12, 2006)

chefedb said:


> And here in Sunny Florida Lasagna is pronounced Lazzagana, Bracciole is Brasseeolee. Sopressatta and Panchetta could be a disease , the natives would not know. Oh well this is only place I have ever seen Bologna and Soft Salami come in frozen


What is Soft Salami ?


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## breadman (Dec 4, 2014)

I am Italian on both sides of my family and never heard it called "gravy" either until I met some Italians who did. If tomato sauce is "gravy," what is that stuff made of roast meat drippings and flour? "Sauce"? This eternal debate has nearly come to blows. Guess it just depends on how you were raised.


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## breadman (Dec 4, 2014)

What is soft salami? San Francisco type salami and most others are harder than average. Genoa salami is the only one I know of that is much softer. You can tell by squeezing the soft ones. I think it is because soft has a higher fat content. MHO.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Soft salami is bigger, cheaper and cooked. Like a huge frankfurter.


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## breadman (Dec 4, 2014)

I have my maternal grandparents' documents for emigration to America, dated 1913. They include the steamship ticket and voyage information. The menu for Thursday states "Dry pasta asciutta al sugo. Carne a ragu con patate." The on-line traslator translates this as, "[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif]Macaroni in sauce. Meat sauce with potatoes." In any translation there will be something lost since not all concepts are represented in both languages.

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## breadman (Dec 4, 2014)

Interesting. I just assumed the hard was cured longer.


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## jdpb (Jul 29, 2015)

Your mother's statement about "if it has meat in it its gravy, otherwise its sauce" is exactly how it was explained to me by a chef trained in Italy and an Italian chef.  I got into an argument the other night by saying what your mother said --they were saying that all italian tomato sauce was called gravy -- which is incorrect!


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## josh71 (Jan 15, 2015)

W.DeBord said:


> Mezzaluna, I saw that episode too, awhile ago. MAN OH MAN you HAVE to make her gravy. I printed it off the foodtv site and have been making hers' ever since. IT'S A WONDERUL RECIPE, no wonder why she won! I think she mentioned publishing a cookbook on her own, I'd buy it.
> 
> Her meatballs are perfect. And the technique makes wonderful sense, cooks them just right.....
> 
> She calls it gravy and I'm not about to argue with her knowledge on the topic.


Do you have the link of that recipe? 

Thanks.


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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

jdpb said:


> Your mother's statement about "if it has meat in it its gravy, otherwise its sauce" is exactly how it was explained to me by a chef trained in Italy and an Italian chef. I got into an argument the other night by saying what your mother said --they were saying that all italian tomato sauce was called gravy -- which is incorrect!


I will believe you if they said it in Italian. I call bogus.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Koukouvagia said:


> I will believe you if they said it in Italian. I call bogus.


This reminds me of a conversation I was having recently with some friends. She is Italian (born and raised in Rome, emigrated to USA as adult) and he Italian-American from New York or New Jersey (what's the difference, after all?). He doesn't care to eat her "Italian" cooking, nor does she care to eat his. Both claim to be heirs to "real Italian cooking knowledge" until she finally admitted that in Italy there is no such thing as "Italian cuisine"... in the sense of a single, unified, standard understanding of food.


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## pistol (Apr 23, 2011)

siduri said:


> Imari,
> How can an Italian know what a word is in English? When an italian-american from the northeast says spaghetti with gravy, he means tomato sauce which may or may not have meat in it. (Most american pasta sauces had meat so i think maybe that's why the term stuck for meat sauce.)
> 
> Of COURSE no one in italy calls a tomato sauce anything that sounds like "gravy" - because "gravy" is English and italians speak Italian!
> ...


yes but eggplant is a word that can be translated into italian,gravy is not.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

gravy translates to Italian. It's sugo.

To me it's obvious that sugo got bastardized into sauce or gravy. It also has to do with pronunciation. When the Italians translated to english and tried to talk

at the speed they spoke Italian, who knows what comes out. I almost never understood my relatives when they tried to speak english fast.

Melanzana spoken by Italians was usually not pronounced correctly. They would speed it up so that most of the time it sounded like moulinyan. To this day I have

Cugini that I can't understand when they speak english fast. When they do this to Americans, the Americans just stare at my cousins like they just grew another face. They get

so bent.

BTW, it's* Gravy*! unless it's a quick preparation, oil, onions, garlic, pan, pasta.. Very lite, it's *Sauce*. ' *Salsa*' like aglio e olio


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