# I need help with this sweet pastry



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello friends. I need some help. Truth is i know nothing about pastries. This one is a ricotta tart and the pastry is very nice, sweet and soft. It's a pleasure in itself, don't matter the filling. There's some icing sugar on top.





  








10058304835_044a8aa2aa_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 2, 2013








It's not pate brisée, or choux pastry or puff pastry or brioche or croissant or a simple cake. It can be molded also. I tried to replicate it without success. Can somebody point me how is it done? I thought i could use almonds flour but i'm not sure. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Not sure, Ordo, but that looks like what they call a "diplomatico" here - maybe you can look that up and see. You can read Italian, right?  I'd do it for you but don't have time right now.  Try "diplomatico" "pasta OR pasticcini OR paste OR pastarella" "site: .it"  And is it ricotta inside or a bavarian cream?


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Siduri. and yes, i can read Italian. Giallozafferano says:

_La diplomatica si compone di strati di pasta sfoglia e uno strato di pan di Spagna, etc._

But this is not pasta sfoglia. Its an homogeneous pastry, almost white-yellow and very tender and light. There seems to be not yeast at all. Also, not bubbles. Not sure. I'm null at pastries.


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Can you maybe post the recipe so we can see what kind of flour to fat ratios you have in the pastry? That might help us identify it. If you can 'mold' it, as you say, it could even be some kind of thin sponge as opposed to a pastry. The minute you talked about molding I thought of a genoise....


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

SamWest61 said:


> Can you maybe post the recipe so we can see what kind of flour to fat ratios you have in the pastry? That might help us identify it. If you can 'mold' it, as you say, it could even be some kind of thin sponge as opposed to a pastry. The minute you talked about molding I thought of a genoise....


That's not my dessert Sam. I bought it at a pâtisserie. That's the reason i'm looking for a recipe.

It's not a genoise. It seems to me that it has some butter in it.


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Yep I would bet my life savings on that too. Sorry, hard to tell from a photo!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Since you're in Germany, next to Österreich, could it be some kind of Viennese pastry?


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Given that its a ricotto tart I would err on the side of Italy, honestly though I really can't tell you more than that!


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

My experience with diplomatici is that there is a very thin layer of pasta sfoglia (which generally means puff pastry, although sometimes it means flaky piecrusty pastry, rarely though) with pan di spagna (which is spongecake or genoise) right under (or on top of) it. From the picture it seems to have a very thin layer of something and the thicker crust seems to be a sort of sponge. (pan di spagna has no yeast, it's just eggs, flour and sugar)

I'd bet if it's so tender as a crust, it's a very _thin_ layer of puff pastry, or maybe a very very thin buttery brisee. I say very thin because cutting through a puff pastry with a fork would squish the filling out of it, but if it's extremely thin (just a couple of layers) it would break easily with the fork, which is the texture i remember for a diplomatico. I looked online and i can'\t find a recipe that doesn't call for frozen puff pastry (sfoglia) but i imagine a pasticceria would be making its own.

If it has ricotta, then from the looks of it, it's probably got gelatin and eggwhites, since it looks both light and solid (cuttable).


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Siduri. I'll make a try on a shortcrust with a bigger proportion of butter, confectioners' sugar and a small proportion of almonds flour. i will solve this mistery!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, i used 200 grams of butter, 100 grams of all purpose flour, 100 grams of icing sugar an drops of vanilla. No egg. No yeast. I skiped almonds flour and lemon zest to keep it simple. The dough was very sticky and it's in the fridge for 4 hours now. Question: should i bake at high or low temp?


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

That's way too much fat, I don't think the oven temp matters much as your dough will be way too wet, but good luck anyway!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm afraid you're right Sam. Well..., i'm going to give it a try at low temp. This dough is edible as it is now without baking, go figure. I even bought some tartlets molds. Ordo making sweet pastries. Live to see it all!


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Ordo, I was doing a bit of baking myself this evening and had a thought regarding your dilemma. I baked a German tray bake called Bienenstich. The dough is called hefeteig which translates as yeast dough, but its basically an enriched dough that is rolled out flat, baked and then cut in half. The filling, in this case pastry cream with whipped butter, is then layered between the two thin sheets of baked dough. Take a look at this pic and see if it looks at all like the ricotta tart that you had. They don't look entirely dissimilar to me...





  








IMG_20131003_182310.jpg




__
samwest61


__
Oct 3, 2013


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

That looks pretty good. Can you share the recipe?
I have to confess my miserable failure. The buttered dough is literally boiling in the oven. Thanks God i used just a part of the dough. I will add flour and an egg yolk.

What kind of a demoniac alchemy is this thing called pàtisserie?


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Haha I feel bad for you! Don't worry you learnt an important lesson today, sadly you can't wing it when it comes to pastry! Well, for the most part anyway. I'll pm you the recipe when I get a minute to transcribe it from German


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks. Meanwhile i added flour, mortar powdered pecan walnuts, more icing sugar, 1 lemon zest, 1 egg yolk and a tea spoon of  baking soda. Consistency is much better know. This is fun! So unpredictable!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

New mix at hot oven. Disaster. It broke as Sahara sand. I regret the pecan nuts.

New try at quiet, tiepid oven.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi Ordo,

if you never baked, take it from someone who's been baking for 50 years (yeah, really, and before that i was making mudpies!) - when you start baking, start with recipes - tried and true recipes.  Get them from someone here, or get them in good cookbooks with authors who test the recipes, but don't improvise.  You first need to get the feel of it.  Make someone's recipe, julia child's pate brisee, or her puff pastry, or some other reliable source, see how it comes out, get a feel for the proportion of the ingredients, and then you can fiddle around with it, substitute some nuts for some of the flour, or whatever. 

Unless you want to wade through dozens of flat dense or dry cakes, pastry that becomes a greasy mess, etc, because you enjoy the experimentation (for me it's too frustrating) then ok.  But you might want to get a professional baker's book that will give you some proportions of fat to flour to liquid, etc, and will explain the chemistry behind it all. 

I can make a reasonable brisee without measuring, because i have a visual sense of how much butter and flour i usually use, without measuring.  But without having made hundreds of pies and tartes and quiches, i wouldn;t  be able to do it, and if it's for something important, i always measure and follow a recipe.


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Ordo, that simply looks like one of our favorites! It's know here in its French name, "miserable". There's a lot of almond broyage in it.

Found this picture on the web;





  








N-1230-ReceptFoto.jpg




__
chrisbelgium


__
Oct 4, 2013








I never made it myself; I'm such a horrible baker ànd we have too many good patissiers over here. If that's it, I'll gladly look up a nice recipe and translate it. BTW, there's no ricotta in it.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Interesting Chris. It looks more like a merengue but it opens up a lot of possibilities to study.

@Siduri: Thanks a lot. I know bakery is not a piece of cake (bad joke) and I don't want to go into bakery really. Not my thing. But it's not that i don't know some pastries and doughs. I can make pàte brisée, lard doughs for my empanadas and savory tarts, pizzas, breads, or a gateau au chocolate, or brownies, or some cakes, etc. The easy stuff i guess.
It's just this particular pastry recipe what I want to replicate. Anyway, you're right. It's time to get a good book on bakery.


----------



## samwest61 (Aug 11, 2013)

Keller all the way!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Please Sam, don't tell me i'll have to make sous-vide pastries! I found a curious list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pastries


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Broyage, though i think i've never tasted it, sounds a bit like what ordo's pastry had, kind of crispy but delicate.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Not crispy Siduri. Not crispy at all. Soft, _morbida. _Almost white-yellow from top to bottom.

Meanwhile in the process of searching i found this recipe:

http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Torta-magica.html


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

ordo said:


> Not crispy Siduri. Not crispy at all. Soft, _morbida. _Almost white-yellow from top to bottom.
> 
> Meanwhile in the process of searching i found this recipe:
> 
> http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Torta-magica.html


Ah, ok, ordo, i see. I guess i was thinking of the diplomatici i've eaten that had a hint of crispy, or perhaps i mean crumbly. If not crispy, however, why are you adding nuts? The word i really was looking for is "friabile" which is sort of melt in the mouth crumbly almost crispy.

But if you say soft, then probably a dense genoise.

Looking at your picture, though, either they burnt the genoise at the bottom or there is a crust below it. I'm trying to remember a cake i saw the recipe for once that had (is this possible) a thin layer of either brisee or puff pastry (very thin) with the layer of genoise or sponge baked onto it.

I saw the torta magica too, when i was looking online, but it doesn't seem like the same thing - but maybe i'm wrong. try it. I'd be curious how it comes out.

Can you describe it more? Is the filling light but holds its shape (like a bavarian cream)? or is it soft and kind of squishes out when you bite into it, like a pastry cream or a cassata filling (ricotta etc) - is it silky in texture or soft and ricotta-like? is it dense, like a thick pudding pastry cream?

Also,is the crust homogeneously soft, or is it soft with a thin crust?


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

siduri said:


> Broyage, though i think i've never tasted it, sounds a bit like what ordo's pastry had, kind of crispy but delicate.


I'm pretty sure you must have tasted broyage, maybe without knowing it was there. It's nothing more than a very fine almond flour mixed with sugar. In patisserie, mostly a 50/50 broyage is used. They sell it in specialized shops that carry baking goods, but often it is mixed with other stuff to make it a bit cheaper. It's used in "miserable" but also in those delicious "Javanais". Both aren't crunchy, but get somewhat compacted when eating them (I know, I don't find a better way to put this).

When I was around 18, I helped on weekends in a patisserie for a little extra pocket money. On saterdays, many times I had to "broyer" or grind large sacks of whole peeled almonds on an antique looking machine. Like a pasta roller, it had 2 large granit rolls that ground the almonds. You had to adjust the rolls until there was nothing more than a hair space between them. That machine scared the hell out of me because of the noise it made when the almonds went through.

I found a better picture of a miserable as I think it might be somewhat close to what our friend ordo is looking for. The recipe says that the biscuit is made of 500g of broyage 50/50, 250g eggwhite, 50g flour and 50g sugar. There's a layer of crème au beurre between the biscuit layers.





  








miserable.jpg




__
chrisbelgium


__
Oct 5, 2013








And this is what a Javanais looks like (absolutely love this!);





  








490.jpg




__
chrisbelgium


__
Oct 5, 2013


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

That actually looks like what ordo was describing, and probably has the feel of friabile, rather than crunchy - crumbly might be the word?  but you say compact?  boh.  Anyway probably i did taste it somewhere. 

But talking of egg whites i think maybe i was thinking of something like a sort of delicate meringue with ground nuts in it. 

anyway, that first pastry, if that is miserable, then i can't imagine what riche is!    You said you've never made it - i'll have to check it out. 

And yes, this picture is much better and certainly more appealing.  I think the first one was photoshopped to death!


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Siduri, the first picture is indeed a miserable and you could call it friable when you break a piece off with a fork or so. But when you chew on it, it will compact a little (come together might be a better discription), probably because of the buttercream, and reveal all its flavors, mainly almonds.

It would be quite surprising to find something similar on ordo's side of world!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello dear friends. I may have found a recipe, but first a video of the tart. Actual colors of the tart are much lighter, not so yellowish as in the video. I can tweak pics to get them close to the real thing but i know nothing of videos. Here we go:


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

ordo, that surely looks like just a bit left for me!


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Sure Chris. But for the sake of science, remember. You see it's a buttery pastry with almost no crust. The idea of adding a % of almond flour is good. Siduri asked why did i added pecan nuts powder. Well, simple: a big mistake! I wonder if this recipe could work:

_180 grams of butter
120 grams of sugar
1 egg
Zest of 1 lemon
1/2 tea spoon of salt_

_Mix the butter (room temperature, pomade texture) and the sugar thoroughly until "letter point" (it should look almost white). Add the egg, the salt and the lemon zest. Mix well and reserve._

_370 grams of flour (00)
2 tea spoons of baking soda
1/2 tea spoon salt_

_Mix all dry ingredients. Form a crown with the flour. Put the butter custard in the center and with the hands, slowly form a sandy pastry. Do not over work. Put that pastry in a buttered pan and fill and follow the form with the hands. Bake at low temp. Put an aluminum foil on top to avoid it getting dark._

BTW: my obsession with this pastry moved me to buy a hand held mixer. Oh my...


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

A buttery pio nono could work. Published by Foodnetwork, recommended by Freshkid, from Realbakingwithrose. 

5 eggs
2/3 cup sugar
1/2 cup sifted cake flour
1/4 teaspoon coarse salt
3 tablespoons unsalted butter, melted
1 teaspoon vanilla

Powdered sugar to coat waxed paper.

Line a jellyroll pan with parchment paper and set aside. Preheat an oven to 350 degrees F.

Whisk together eggs and sugar and place in the top of a double boiler set over medium-high heat. Beat until mixture is hot (about 140 degrees F). Remove from the heat and continue beating until mixture holds a limp peak. Sift together flour and salt and fold into egg mixture. Fold in butter a tablespoon at a time. Gently stir in vanilla.

Pour batter into prepared pan, spreading out as necessary to create an even surface. Bake for 13-15 minutes..

Meanwhile, prepare a rectangle of waxed or parchment paper that is the same size as the pan, and cover the paper with powdered sugar.

Remove pan from oven and immediately invert cake onto prepared paper. Remove parchment paper and trim cake to smooth sides. Let cake cool completely, then spread with Manjar Blanco. Roll cake and sprinkle the outside with powdered sugar  8I will not roll the pastry of course).


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Also found this web site for measures, conversions, etc.

*Pastryscoop*


----------



## sonecac (Aug 11, 2012)

Hello Siduri,

Could you recomend me some professional baking books?

Thanks.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok. First try with this recipe. Close, but not still there. Remember the video turns everything strong yellow which is not. So i attached a pick.





  








10162304866_239ee313b9_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 8, 2013








I skipped the vanilla and used almond essence. Amazing and tasting pio nono! The best of my life. But not the buttery pastry I'm looking for. I guess I need. 

1. More butter %.
2. More thickness.
3. Less time in the oven.

Also, i used a cake flour that i suspect had some small proportion of yeast. Bad. I will buy plain cake flour next time. Here's the video. Just a try without filling.


----------



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

ordo said:


> Ok. First try with this recipe. Close, but not still there. Remember the video turns everything strong yellow which is not. So i attached a pick.
> ...


If your video turns everything a strong yellow, then what needs to be adjusted in camera is the WHITE BALANCE. It can be adjusted to neutralize the yellow, or give the scene a red, white, blue, or even green cast. You need to checkout the WHITE BALANCE adjustment of your camera.


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

kokopuffs said:


> If your video turns everything a strong yellow, then what needs to be adjusted in camera is the WHITE BALANCE. It can be adjusted to neutralize the yellow, or give the scene a red, white, blue, or even green cast. You need to checkout the WHITE BALANCE adjustment of your camera.


Sure. I know about white balance. Not so easy with a P&S. Any idea about the pastry?


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

SonecaC said:


> Hello Siduri,
> 
> Could you recomend me some professional baking books?
> 
> Thanks.


Sorry, SonecaC, I don't have any and don;t use any. I just use regular cookbooks with recipes. I would have a hard time doing the math to figure out the proportions that professional chefs use/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - i was just saying that if you want to invent your own recipes in baking, you probably should refer to the professionals who can give proportions and reasons for these proportions of fat:flour:liquid:egg

I rely on a few go-to books for pastry and cake: Beranbaum's Cake Bible, Time-Life The good cook pastries and the good cook cakes; Barbara Maher: Cakes, Julia Child: mastering the art of french cooking; and my old favorite, Betty crocker's 1950 cookbook.


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Ahhhh Siduri...

I have my mom's old Betty Crocker!

I find the best recipes by looking for the pages with the most pencil corrections and stains!

When I am missing her the most that cookbook gets pulled out and a dish is prepared.

Good to remember her in the kitchen.

mimi


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Almost there.





  








Tarta de ricotta 11.JPG




__
ordo


__
Oct 12, 2013


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Ordo... looks amazing.

mimi


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks mimi. I can't say i mastered the pastry, but it's now a repeatable one. There're some tricks about the oven tho. Half way the baking i put a cold aluminum diffuser under the baking tray to prevent the pastry to get dry and brown. This tart is much better and moist if kept in the fridge for 24-36 hours.





  








10430322703_4890e09925_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 22, 2013


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

What looked amazing to me before has now been elevated.
Tell me if you will the difference between the top coats or "finishes" when comparing your last two pastries..

mimi


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

You're welcome mimi.

The first tart has some plain sieved icing sugar after i got the tart out from the fridge, Hence the powdered texture.

The last one, has tapped icing sugar before i put the tart in the fridge.

Also, i straightened the borders, and corrected the light to show the pastry.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Very nice ordo!  So what did you use for the pastry in the end?


----------



## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

This has been an interesting thread to follow.

Now our ordo (who always shopped for his sweets at the bakery) can make a great looking plated dessert!

Congrats ordo...what will you make next?

I am not a big fan of ricotta and you have me looking for this sweet in my area...gotta have just one bite!

mimi


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

@Siduri: basically a pio nono pastry with the addition of melted butter. The difference is i do not foam the first eggs&sugar mix to letter point. Then the baking is different, as stated.

@mimi: ti chiamano mimi? Next may be a cheescake? I need 10 desserts. Until today i have:

1.Tarte tatin.





  








9680864435_b31ab4f301_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013








2. Gateau au chocolat.





  








3hudue7.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013








3. Crepes





  








u1j9.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013








4. Figs in syrup (oops... ricotta again...)





  








9647865451_a6cfcd9824_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013








5. Ricotta tart





  








10430322703_4890e09925_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013








Open to suggestions. Yours: Ordo.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I never heard of pio nono pastry (that would be the pastry of pope pius the ninth?) - but looking up in the thread that seemed to be the recipe for a genoise. 

and was that the texture of the one you had eaten?


----------



## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-pionono.htm

Genoise. May be. A dense, not so spongy, buttered genoise.

A pro baker here told me he makes that pastry as a kind of a pâte sucrée. But i tasted his pastry and it wasn't so good, go figure.

Resting the tart in the fridge is important to get a moist pastry. I mean, the moist from the ricotta filling (which changes if it's going to be baked or not) goes to the pastry.

Also, i tried making a thicker pastry (using small amounts of yeast) and then cutting that in halves. This one is 1 cm. thick. I can get two 0.5 cm. halves from it.





  








10446865803_0cd037a7f1_o.jpg




__
ordo


__
Oct 23, 2013


----------

