# Tattoos



## chefboyormunch

I am a 22 year old male culinary student, in California. enrolled in a Le Cordon Bleu program in Pasadena! I have just started culinary school, and currently just finished my first term! My school offers 1-time events, ( which is local places in the industry, that need help for one night or certain events ) ….. I pulled a full day of school today ( up since 3am ) and was scheduled to be a prep cook at a local high end country club right after school. I arrived about 45 minutes early (as always) and made my way through the kitchen to meet the chef and the staff, ect: I found the executive chef, as soon as he seen me, ( I was full dressed in clean school uniform ) he looked at me and told me that he did not want me, he was not going to have me working in his kitchen, he said my tattoos were the reason why I was not permitted to work for him, ever! I handled it very professional, and told him, sorry- I will call the school and see if they could send another student down asap. And said thank you, and byebye. ?????????? now when I sat back and thought about it, he expressed major discrimination against me. Which here in the states is very illegal! I told the person in-charge of arranging this event at my school, she said ooooh that kinda thing happens sometimes. "I am prepared to face all the hurdles that this industry can through at me" I am not mad, but kind of am wondering what I should -if anything- about this. I though of going to the president of the school about it, but, ya, I don't know. See my tattoos are on my face, I have flames tattooed on in the form of a mustache!! I understand that it is quite the first impression, but I have a 4.0 in school, work hard, and earn my keep! I know in the end it his loss, but I am kind of pisst for the fact that he thinks he is better than me because he wares a Rolex, and drives a BMW. So I know I just press on from here, and take this a great lesson in self control and patience. But it really bites when these things happen.


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## jayme

Chef,
Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain this will not be the only chef that will not care for your tatoos- there are many traditionals in the culinary world. Luckily, there are a lot of open-minded chefs currently and up- and- coming in the industry also. I'm a student in Sacramento, CA. Personally, I will work once with anyone, and let their talents speak for them- not their appearance. I have another student that I work with that is young, rough, and inked- and once you get to know him, he is great! I'd say just hang in there and keep up the good work! (but if you want to work in traditional settings, you might want to one day concider removing the tats) As a student, you can't do much about it.... but if it was a hiring situation- you might have a discrimination suit. Keep Cooking and Good Luck!
:chef: :chef:


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## dmt

Munch,
You may very well find that more traditional establishments have more stringent requirements on appearance.
It's like a dress code.
Where there is a chance that the customers (especially "high end" types) may catch a glimpse of the kitchen staff, these requirements become gospel.
Perception out weighs truth every time...
Your tats sound interesting, but they also sound somewhat radical, as in not something seen everyday, and as such, are initially "shocking".
Probaly shocked the exec immediately, and he reacted...
It is *not* discrimination, nor is it illegal to refuse employment based upon appearance that is elective (your choice to adorn yourself with body art).
Your offer to call the school and arrange for a replacement was a class move, but from my perspective that's pretty much the end of your options or recourse.
What if you grew a moustache of hair?? I imagine no one would be the wiser about what was underneath...
But then again, that's sort of dismissing the whole reason for the tats in the first place, isn't it??


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## Chef W.G

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Disney will not hire you if you have visible tattoos, facial hair, or a male with piercings or long hair.

While that may be one extreme, I don't believe that it is discrimination. I personally have not had to address this problem, but I work at a conservative high end country club, and I do not think I could put someone with facial tattoos on the omelet station. I personally do not have a problem with it, but my clientele would and they are the ones that are paying the bills. I think the chef at that country club was thinking the same thing.


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## mikeb

Many restaurants won't hire you if you have any visible tattoos... If they're covered up then most people are OK with them. Then again, this goes for most professional-type jobs in general. Many restaurants also won't allow facial hair (I keep my beard well trimmed though, no one's ever complained about it). 

Also, welcome to the world of high end dining. When I first started in fine dining restaurants, I was broke as @#$%, living in a housing project. I'd be serving foie gras, caviar at work, then go home and eat boiled pasta with hot sauce... The other apprentices would go home to their families, or go out to nightclubs, I'd go home and find the police at my door...(btw, keep in mind I've never been arrested or charged with any crime - however I've been hassled or threatened by the police on many occasions, I've even had them break into my house before...)

Anyhow, good luck finding a restaurant. You will find that in this industry discrimination runs rampant, alot of chefs are seemingly stuck in another century... And when you get into high end restaurants, nearly everyone has money, and don't be surprised if they look down on you. Thankfully I've built myself a reputation, people know that I'm knowledgeable about food, wine, and a skilled cook, so I get along better with industry people these days. I've also got out of the 'hood', and am getting along better with society in general. It'll get better...


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## ryaninayr

Lol I go there too and i've seen you around! You had chef harrison for intro 1, right? If so, then it must be you! My first one time event wasn't as smooth as I wanted it to be too. my friends and i decided to help out the boston culinary group and it was a real backbreaker. the executive chef was short fat and mean. we plated up 2100 plates and cleaned them all at the end...it was really hard but really fun and a great experience.

Anyways, I don't think tattoos are a big deal...you saw chef cone's tattoos on his neck and maybe you've seen chef pergl (full body tatoo, mustache, pluggs in his ears) smoking in the smoaking area. There was another chef too who has two full sleeves. so anyways, I wouldn't think too much of it...


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## sushigaijin

Oh it is definately discrimination, it's just not illegal.

Fortunately the industry is rife with other like-minded and tattooed souls, so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a home once you are looking for one. You definately handled it the right way, now he doesn't have ANOTHER reason to not want tattooed kids in the kitchen...

Erik.


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## jacaranda

I think you might be being a touch hard on him; I'd be surprised if it was about being "better than you"; more likely he's concerned about being chewed out by one of his customers or his manager. The club is likely to have a personal appearance code for employees, and it might well include a ban on facial tattoos.

It's probably not exaggerating to say that facial tattoos in the United Kingdom would bar you from working in 98% of kitchens. Many head chefs probably wouldn't even bother interviewing you - walk through the door with a tattoo on your face and you might as well walk straight out again; and no catering agency would touch you. Many employers' appearance guidelines include concealing visible tattoos and removing facial piercings at work.

Rightly or wrongly, facial tattoos (in British society, at least) send very aggressive and confrontational signals to potential employers. As a manager they say to me "f- you; I'm unmanageable; I'm going to do my own thing and I don't care what anyone else thinks of me". In a profession that relies on teamwork, processes and procedures, that's not the sort of employee that most kitchens will turn double somersaults to employ.

* Please don't be offended by this*, it's not a comment on you personally, and I know that you will have carefully considered all these consequences when you decided to have the tattoo done. I agree with Erik that it sounds as though you handled it with absolute professionalism.


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## tattooed_sousie

Hmm... I'm heavily tattooed myself, but I've never had any problems. Nothing personal, but facial tattoos scream "MENTAL ILLNESS!!!". I know more than a handful of people that have extensive facial tattooing and not a single one of them would do it again. My boyfriend is a tattoo artist and he is heavily tattooed also. He refuses to do any work on the face. I've worked in several fine dining restaurants where a great deal of the staff, if not the majority, is heavily tattooed (even in open kitchens). I would really consider having them lasered off of your face. Some of the laser clinics will give you a break on the fees if they are gang related or on your face. It's sad but true, your decision will stigmatize and limit you for the rest of your life.


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## ras1187

Professionalism gets you the job, your boss could care less about your "individualism" or your "self-expression".

Nothing is illegal about creating a professional, relaxing atmosphere for the guest to enjoy.


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## ryaninayr

If he doesn't want to work with you, then you surely don't want to work with them. There's nothing worse than working next to someone you're uncomfortable with, or don't like. Some chefs I talked to told me that if you're not happy, then the kitchen isn't happy and an unhappy kitchen pumps out unhappy food .

In the end, it _should_ come down to your abilities as a chef, rather than your appearance as a chef. One chef at a one-time event I went to told me "your customers can care less how you look, as long as their food looks good."

Good luck in Intro 2.


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## foodpump

Sorry dude, in the fine dining and chain worlds it ain' t so. 
In this case perception is reality, and a customer who sees facial tatoos will want to know WHY this person preparing his/her food will want to make this particular kind of statement, and may or may not want to have his food prepared by such a person. It has nothing to do with the tatoo-ee, but rather the customer's perception of the tatoo-ee. The higher up you go in fine dining, the greater the reaction the customer will have to facial tattoos and piercings. The customer will take his money somewhere else, and the business will feel this. Let's face it, a restaurant is a profit making venture. If a faulty piece of equipment is losing you money, you either fix it or replace it, if an employee is having anything but a postive impact on the customer, you either shape up the employee or toss him out. If you feel that profit is a dirty word, please bear in mind that it's the restaurant's profit that pays your salary.

In the chain restaurants there are very set HR guidelines to follow, the holy commandments from head office, and virtually every corporate HR program views facial tatoos and facial piercings in the same manner as described above.


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## bluedogz

Sorry fella, but discrimination entails rendering judgement against someone based on an involuntary characteristic, such as race or physical handicap. I'd assume you considered the consequences of facial ink before you got it. I doubt this is the last you'll hear of it in the job market. If he wants to not hire you because he doesn't like your sneakers, that's legally legit. Pigheaded and shortsighted, but legit.

My $0.02: grow a real mustache for a while. Get a job. Shave. In that order.:smoking:


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## asnutter

Disney does have this policy, as do many other organizations...
Unfortunately, if the policy is written/documented and applies to ALL INDIVIDUALS, it is not discrimination...
Doesnt matter if you are white, african american, polish, german, italian, or a little green monster from spiderman's neighborhood...
If the policy says "professional appearance with no visible body piercings, tattoos, or blue hair"...(just kidding about the blue hair)...then the company has every right not to offer employment...
Perfectly legal if the written/documented policy applies to ALL INDIVIDUALS...
Now, if that chef vetoed your look based on HIS first impression, then you have a case...In either situation, might not be worth the expense...
Best of luck...


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## panini

I don't want to muddy the waters, but as an employer, I have the right to hire or not hire anyone, period.
As an applicant, you have the same rights, to work there or not.
pan


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## asnutter

I agree with your freedom to hire/not hire an employee...
Heck, I'm all for it!!!
If the reason for the "not hire" is based SOLELY on someone's appearance, then the legality of the not hire comes into question...
If the company has a policy in place, then there is a built in C.Y.A., so to speak... 
Of course this discussion has a multitude of "what if's", "circumstances" and personal biases which will always cloud the situation...
All things being equal, (sounds like an economics class), appearance, race, and religion should NEVER factor into the hiring process...


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## panini

I understand.
I agree with everything you state, BUT, it is also my job to protect the business in making sure this hire will not effect co workers, customers, etc.
I think the CYA language in large business brings more problems then they resolve. My CYA involves not disclosing my reasons for the not hire. Ultimately it's my descisions that make the business a success or not. If my descisions involve race, color, appearance etc. eventually this will catch up with you.
unfortunately appearance is a factor in employment. Otherwise I would be a great model:smoking:


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## asnutter

I agree with your sentiment entirely...Especially if you are the owner/proprietor...Having not had the luxury of being my own boss, I must defer to my experience with corporate operations...


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## chris1980

I disagree with the teacher's decision to force the student out of the class. Really, the student is just there to learn, has paid their tuition, and unless they are a disruption or a poor student, should have equal right to class time even if their hair is purple.

But, that's in the education system where you are paying to be there. In the real world, it ain't going to cut it. The chef should have allowed the student in the class but pulled him aside for his own benefit and told him that unless he gets rid of the tattoo, he'll be unemployed (and professors won't be recommending him to any potential employers).

As students, especially in elementary and high school, kids are taught to express themselves, be happy with themselves, and to shrug off the negative opinions of others. The real world doesn't work that way. When looking for a job you have to conform to what is professional and expected in your industry. No one cares about your individual expression.

Would you hire someone if they came to an interview or to work wearing dirty old pants or a shirt with Calvin peeing on a Ford sign?

Welcome to the real world! Get rid of the tattoo or get a job where tattoos are expected (like a tattoo shop). The tattoo was a huge mistake, and I just hope you don't have a scar after you fix it.


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## greg

This particular incident wasn't in the classroom, it was at a country club that was using some temp workers from a culinary school.


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## jim berman

Careful, careful making generalizations. I am a High School culinary teacher and I can tell you (as can my students), that I will kick the crap out anybody that gets out of line in the process of 'expressing themselves.' As a matter of fact, most of the teachers in my school will do the same (since we are in a technical high school.) The whole "careful or you will bruise their self-esteem" argument holds little water with me. Just the opposite, really. I do not offer 'negative opinions,' rather I provide honest insight; love it or hate it, here it is. Students are told, rather frankly, if you don't meet the standard, be it for metal rings stuck in your eyeball or hair sticking up like a rooster's comb or because you can't handle a knife, you will not have the same opportunity for success as somebody that knows how to shave, tuck in their shirt, and prepare mirepoix.


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## panini

Quote, Jim.
"Just the opposite, really. I do not offer 'negative opinions,' rather I provide honest insight; love it or hate it, here it is. Students are told, rahter frankly, if you don't meet the standard, be it for metal rings stuck in your eyeball or hair sticking up like a rooster's comb or because you can't handle a knife, you will not have the same opportunity for success as somebody that knows how to shave, tuck in their shirt, and prepare mirepoix." 

This is what I was trying to express in the hiring process about my responsibility to protect co workers, business, customers, etc. Jim just says it better, as usual.
Expressing yourself, kinda goes on the list of things to do on your own time.


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## jim berman

:blush: awwww....:blush: I'm humbled!


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## mattfin

Agreed - as a chef who wanted a chef's tattoo for some time, I knew I had to balance my need for self expression with the fact that not everyone would be accepting of it were it on permanent display. So rather than place it on my forearms or hands or whatnot, I hid my tattoo on the back of my shoulder. My friends and family can see it and love it, but the random customer need not ever know it is there in case that is something that would be off-putting to them.


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## jigz369

So the chef had a problem with your facial tattoos. Fair enough, I would too. As much as we like to think we live in a progressive, accepting society such is not the case. People judge a book by it's cover all the time. I had a difficult entering the "corporate" world before I removed my 2 ear-rings so I expect you'll never get there with facial tattoos. I also have tattoos but they are hidden and can be seen only if I want them to be. Get over yourself, get some laser tattoo removal, reapply and then judge if they still refuse you. Until then, accept that you're going to have a really tough time in the real world.... school's over now. Just my opinion though.


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## littlemama

whooow...what else ya got goin on there mattfin???

tats...yes , well. discrete to say the least....be carefull where you place them....unfortunately, you may offend someone depending where you put them.....it is really up to you......for some it is their culture....

for others a fashion statement. and yes others want to make a statement. just as you have the right to express...well others...they have the right not to like what you got going on....just be aware of that....

oh and yes....mom that I am....I have one....WHere???? I'LL NEVER TELL.


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## damack

can you post a pic of your facial tatoo im wondering what it looks like and will judg for my self,

i worked with a aferican american man that had tribal tatoos on his face, but this was notin a high end place and from what i have herd he is working in a corprit job, but thats because his tatoos are cultral, sorry but you just decided to put flames on your face, time to get over your self get it removed and put the fire out, then and only then you might get hired,


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## risque cakes

I totally agree with this post. I also will NOT allow my employees to bring in their cell phones into the shop, they are allowed to give their parents the phone number here for emergencies and..I will NOT allow ANYONE to "check their e-mail for a minute". 

One of the reasons that I wouldn't hire someone with visible tattoos and no one seems to have brought this up, Tattoo parlors...just like the food service industry is regulated....

How do I know that you got your tats at a Clean, sanitary place and are not suffering from any form of Hepatitis?

My cousin is now on the list of liver transplants at the age of 40 because she got her ear pierced at the mall.

So, for you young ones out there, feel free to express yourself...but don't witch and moan when someone expresses themselves by refusing to hire you.

adding:

don't get me wrong I have a respect for tattoos if they are part of a culture as many of my friends are Maori artists and a lot of them have their faces tattooed, but I would be very honest with anyone that I would hire and if they are very qualified and there is NO one else with their skills or better...I would hire them for the back of house only. 

As a potential employer, my first loyalty is to my customer, and my customer only...who is paying the overheads, and not to someone that felt it was COOL or CUTE to fall in step with some fad. My .02 cents...not worth much, but thrown in the pot anyway..lol


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## claytonj

why would you get a tattoo on your face? Is that the only place you could express yourself? You had to know that a tattoo on your face would cause issues. 

I personally have 7 tattoos (and plan on getting more) but no one would ever know unless I took my shirt off.


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## jim berman

Well said. I, too, have ink, but you would never know. It is personal; I am not trying to make a statement. Not to say that you can't make a statement, but just be prepared (like the guy with a purple mohawk, the girl with pierced nose, lip, face, eyerbrow, etc) to deal with the downside of such decor. As a customer, I don't want to see it in a professional atmosphere. Just like I wouldn't want to see graffitti on the walls of bathroom... time and place for everything.


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## greg

It's a full-sized portrait of Dennis DeYoung, isn't it?


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## oldschool1982

Naaaaa! My money's on an album cover. Maybe "The Best of Styx" (Wooden Nickel) or Paradise Theater (Gawd! That one hurts just mentioning it.)


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## abefroman

Yes, lets see what they look like.


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## risque cakes

agrgh...it quoted the wrong quote.

I was trying to respectfully dissagree with someone that stated it doesn't matter how we look as long as the food is great.

I dissagree, since we tend to eat with our eyes first!


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## theshamanchef

_"Hmm... I'm heavily tattooed myself, but I've never had any problems. Nothing personal, but facial tattoos scream "MENTAL ILLNESS!!!". I know more than a handful of people that have extensive facial tattooing and not a single one of them would do it again. My boyfriend is a tattoo artist and he is heavily tattooed also. He refuses to do any work on the face. I've worked in several fine dining restaurants where a great deal of the staff, if not the majority, is heavily tattooed (even in open kitchens). I would really consider having them lasered off of your face. Some of the laser clinics will give you a break on the fees if they are gang related or on your face. It's sad but true, your decision will stigmatize and limit you for the rest of your life"_

Um Tattooed Sousie,

A couple of things:

1.) A tattoo on your face doesnt "scream mental illness" , its just very out of the ordinary. Fear generated such responses even within you. We have seen this before with racism in the world. Well if its scarey or strange or, god forbid, different......, attack it.

2.) How many people with face tattoos have you met? Are you a psycologist? There have been time in history in certain cultures where Tattoos on the face were a sign of great courage and conviction and in my case deep spiritual beliefs and ancestry. Almost every continent has had indeginous peoples with Medicine men/women and they were commanly tattooed on thier face.

3.) Of course its hard to employ an individual that stands out like that ecause,..oh my god, what will the customers say. Reality check,..if the person is outgoing, talented, and professional,....the customers will love him/her. How do I know?

I am fully tattooed on my face,...Im a very successful Executive Pastry Chef and a member of several International Culinery Advisory Boards and I think we, as a society should worry more about the people in congress screwing us over, than if the unique individual cooking our food is "mentally ill",...look around,...it doesnt take tattoos. As far as losing profit and customers(this was from another "Chefs" comment),.......how many "Professional Chefs" have TRIED to employ a qualified, Tatooed or pierced individual and has concrete evidence that sales were lost? Thats a cop out from a coward who has been kissing as so long he forgot to grow a pair and simply look for THE MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE whatever he/she may look like. I say its people like you that make assumptions based on fear that make us such an anal society, dont blame it on the customers,...blame it on discrimination by small minded people.

There was a time when even your tattoos produced such fear,...wouldnt it be interesting if you went back in time and experienced say, "the Salem witch Hunt" or the "inquisition". Generalizations are for the ignorant and the fearfull.

Think on it madam.


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## ishbel

The latest post before yours was made in 2007.


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## foodpump

Meh, hey if wanna treat your face like a bus shelter or a garage door---smeared with graffitti--, go ahead. 

Face it, (no pun intednded)  Tattoos are there for one and only one thing:

To attract attention

So the one question every employer and customer asks themselves is: "Why does this person want to attract attention to his facial tattoos?"

I can respect that the above poster is not bitter, nor is he screaming that not hiring people with facial tattoos is illegal/racist (it isn't).

What I don't respect is that the above poster wants to make facial tatttoos mainstream.

If that were the case, we'd be born with them............


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## sirbeefsteak

I am planning on getting a tatt upon graduation however the idea of it being on my face never popped into my head i even have some cool desighns for some on my hands but id never actually get them. Im in the bible belt all the tatts i get will be confined to coverable places. For me its kind of like a promise to myself a kind of contract with food as well as showing my passion


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## pollopicu

I hate to sounds harsh, but when you got a tattoo on your face, you most likely did it because you wanted to create a certain kind of "first impression" otherwise you wouldn't have gotten it on your face, but you couldn't have really believed that the first impression would be a positive one.

I myself am so tired of seeing people's bodies riddled with tats. It's no offense to anyone here in particular, just society in general. People used to get them because they were "unique", but now everyone and their mother has them, and not just one. They have sleeves, on their fingers (which to me in the food business looks gross), neck, on their skull on their shaved head, and now their face. To me it doesn't look cool anymore. It was cool when it was just a few people, now it seems herdish.

Getting a visible tat is a huge decision in life. At least to me it is, although it doesn't seem to be for many people now a days. So if you get a tat, be ready to suffer the consequences of being labeled and discriminated against. I'm not saying it's right, but it's just one of the things you should be ready to accept when you make the decision to get one. To many people a tattoo is a sign of anti-social behavior. Of course not everyone who has tattoo's are "anti-social", but a lot of them have that "I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about me or what I do attitude", and that's something to be leary of when you're looking for dependability, and lots of old-schoolers  see that as a spit in the face of society. i'm not saying it's right, but don't complain when someone judges you when they see something crazy like that on your arms, head, and especially your face.

I actually feel bad for the OP because he seems like a good kid, and he handled it so professionally well, but unfortunately, when you get a tat, you have to take the good with the bad.


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## missyd

Pollopicu said:


> So if you get a tat, be ready to suffer the consequences of being labeled and discriminated against.


Agreed. That is one of the reasons why all of my tattoos are concealable. (I have 8 including a decent sized one on my thigh and a large back piece). Same goes for piercings - always have my septum flipped up during work so its not visible and wear plugs in my lobes (1/2 inch) instead of tunnels.


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## gabelele

Well, I understand your situation and most of the comments I've read, they are correct,it's like that in this business. If you really want to continue cooking I suggest where you would find yourself and facial tats at home. Come and work in the U.K. I've worked in many countries, Italy, U.S.A., Germany, Swizerland now I'm in Manchester UK, and to be honest sometimes I feel an outsider not having facial tattoos or bone piercings in my ears! This is the place to be believe me. I wish you luck.


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## paul alfred

Interesting that this thread came back, but kind-of cool since I can post on it now.  I have one tattoo so far, but because of the kind of problems a visible tattoo can cause in the hiring process I chose to have it located where my shirt will always cover it at work.  I do know a chef with very visible tattoos though, and she's never had a problem (that I know of) getting hired because of them.  And they're on her face too.  They start on her chin just below her lower lip and go down at least as far as her chef coat collar.  She's an executive chef at a fine dining restaurant and meets with customers all the time and her employers are ok with that.  She's a very friendly person that the customers love, and her 30 years of experience as a chef mean she is never wanting for a job offer.  Not all places will discriminate against visible tattoos...you just need to find the place you fit in at.


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## thor

The bias will never completely stop...not anytime soon anyway. I was a Police Officer for many years, and my first Dept I had to wear long-sleeve shirts year round (goddamn polyester no less) since my one arm is a full sleeve, and other has tribal on my forearm. We (population at large) are gradually becoming better about ink with the reality shows (probably the only good they serve) and internet, but anything past the usual visual bicep tat is still a ways off (think about it...the only facial tat John and Jane Q Public have any exposure to is Mike Tyson, or tv shows portraying criminals.  It would be great to see though...think that will be my 1st non-intro thread. 

Much luck to you man.


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## Iceman

I feel that the people having problems with tattoos are those who also have serious difficulty with their own mental, emotional and social security.





  








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## michaelga

Thanks IceMan!

You just proved a really good point - all those tatoos are easily hidden by long sleeves!


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## kaneohegirlinaz

I gotta throw my 5¢ into the pot

…as I am Polynesian, my ancestors have been using tattoos for centuries, and yes, in some cases they are applied to the face and or head. In Hawaii, tats 'ain't no big ting braddah' (as Don Ho woud say)!


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## pollopicu

I think it's different when it's part of your ancestry and heritage. Somehow it's more acceptable. I don't know why, it just is.


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## foodpump

I just wanna know what's going through someone's mind when they get that stuff permanently applied.

Face it, the sole purpose of a tat is to attract attention.

Why do you want to attract attention to yourself???????


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## kaneohegirlinaz

In Hawaii, it’s different exactly for that reason, Pollopicu.  When you get a tattoo, it says something about you and your life and family and … well everything, depending upon the design if you will. SOOO different from Western Culture.  (and no, I don't have one, I'm chicken, I don't like needles!)


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## Iceman

I guess that you didn't so much notice that none of those chefs had long sleeves rolled down ... _or that four(4) seven(7) chefs pictured were wearing short sleeves._ I guess you missed those points.


MichaelGA said:


> ... - all those tatoos are easily hidden by long sleeves!


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## michaelga

... and after the publicity picture - not a single one of them will enter the kitchen without their sleeves down.


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## phatch

IceMan said:


> I feel that the people having problems with tattoos are those who also have serious difficulty with their own mental, emotional and social security.


This sort of opinion-as-fact speech is counter productive to fair discussion of others opinions and view points. It leads to polarizing speech that is not constructive here at Cheftalk.

Would you like to restate this in more useful language?

Here's a local guy all tattooed up that carry a particular message as a counter example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Allgier


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## thor

foodpump said:


> I just wanna know what's going through someone's mind when they get that stuff permanently applied.
> 
> Face it, the sole purpose of a tat is to attract attention.
> 
> Why do you want to attract attention to yourself???????


When got my first, it wasn't for attention, it was to honor my deceased mother. Up until a few years back mine were all above sleeve line. It wasn't to catch peoples eyes, it was to represent milestones in my life in a unique, indelible way that can't be lost or stolen. I'll always have each with me no matter where I go, and when I look at them I think not of the design itself, but that milestone that it represents....others may be different, but to think all are just attention seekers<edit> is short-sighted. Granted, a facial tattoo is more noticable, but for whatever reason, it's there for good. 


phatch said:


> This sort of opinion-as-fact speech is counter productive to fair discussion of others opinions and view points. It leads to polarizing speech that is not constructive here at Cheftalk.
> 
> Would you like to restate this in more useful language?
> 
> Here's a local guy all tattooed up that carry a particular message as a counter example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Allgier
> 
> I read that as tattoo haters are the ones with the emotional and social security problems (still falls under a blanket statement, but it didn't sound disparaging towards those with ink


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## Iceman

There are sixteen(16) chefs pictured in the pics that I posted; at least seven(7) of them have distinct tattoos. Now taking into consideration just who they are, I don't think that any of them are going to be told to roll down their sleeves if they want them up. Go ahead, look some of them up. Please tell me all about how you're gonna tell Michael Voltaggio, Mike Isabella or Michael Symon that they can't work in your kitchen.  Get real for a while. 

Now as to re-state _my position as to my opinion_, I feel that any boss who has difficulty with or chooses not to hire people with tattoos, is making a mistake. 

I think it's also a mistake to think that just because you can find examples to fit specific situations that is becomes a fast hard fact for all situations.


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## petemccracken

IceMan said:


> ...I think it's also a mistake to think that just because you can find examples to fit specific situations that is becomes a fast hard fact for all situations.


Either in support or opposition.

Failing to hire someone based on anything other than their suitability for the job in question may be a mistake however, that does not imply that the failure is because of a mental, emotional, or social shortcoming on the part of the one doing the hiring.


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## Iceman

The post started off with the two(2) words _*"I feel ..."*_. I'm so very sorry if I overestimated the intelligence of those people reading the post that everyone would understand that I was only stating *MY OPINION*, nothing more. I do believe that everyone gets to have their own opinion, and that it is their right to determine it however they like. I didn't call anyone out for having a different opinion than mine, I just stated mine. I am also very sorry if anyone has any insecurities that causes them to be all bent out of shape with their panties all in knots over what my opinion may be. I apologize for that. 
[h2]o·pin·ion [/h2]
[uh-pin-yuh







,







n]

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal
[h1]Opinion[/h1]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In general, an *opinion* is a belief about matters commonly considered to be *subjective*, i.e., _it is based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of __emotion or interpretation of facts_. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments. In casual use, the term _opinion_ may be *the result of a person's **perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires*. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs.

[h2] [/h2][h2]opin·ion[/h2]

_noun_ \ə-ˈpin-yən\

1 *:* a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

2

*:* belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge


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## Iceman

People do all sorts of things all day every day for attention. The clothes we wear; the style of our hair; the frames for those of us wearing glasses; the cars we chose; the homes we live in ... I could go on. What makes getting a tattoo or multiple tattoos any different? _I feel ... it is my belief ... my opinion ..._ that there should be no standard created for not hiring anyone with tattoos. _I feel ... I believe ... it is my opinion ..._ that not hiring someone because they have visible tattoos is completely discriminatory and should not be allowed.


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## vic cardenas

Phatch: Funny, I was going to use Curtis Allgier as an example of someone I wouldn't hire if they walked in my door.

Personally, I wouldn't hire someone with facial tattoos. That's where I draw the line. I _would_ hire someone with neck tattoos, or hand tattoos.

Sleeves don't count, everybody has them, I don't see that as extreme anymore. Anybody who doesn't hire someone for having sleeves is seriously a strange, too strait-laced weirdo.

But yeah, neck or hand tattoos, for me, aren't so crazy either, to me.

I would however consider hiring a facial tattoo "crazy" if their resume indicated they may possibly be the best chef ever to walk through my doors. So, ok... maybe I would hire Curtis Allgier.


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## foodpump

IceMan said:


> People do all sorts of things all day every day for attention. The clothes we wear; the style of our hair; the frames for those of us wearing glasses; the cars we chose; the homes we live in ... I could go on. What makes getting a tattoo or multiple tattoos any different? _I feel ... it is my belief ... my opinion ..._ that there should be no standard created for not hiring anyone with tattoos. _I feel ... I believe ... it is my opinion ..._ that not hiring someone because they have visible tattoos is completely discriminatory and should not be allowed.


Yup.

But clothes, hair, glasses, even safety pins (remember those?) are not permanent, and people change them all the time, sometimes even daily. Tats are permanent.

Not hiring someone with facial/highly visible tats is not discriminatory. People weren't born with them, their parents didn't force them on them, and they didn't get them as a result of an accident. They made a conscious decision to get them.

So, the first thing I ask myself as an employer is, why does this person want to draw attention to his/her chin, cheeks, or forehead? How will this affect my business? My customers? My other employees? I dunno, is not hiring a baker with a bad back discriminatory when the job demands heavy lifting?

What's under your normal work clothes is none of my business, what I don't see, I don't see. What is visible on an employee makes a statement about me, my business, and my attitude. Would I hire a server with greasy hair, ragged black fingernails, and mossy teeth? Would I be discriminatory if I didn't?

That's pretty much the line in the sand, and it is observed by many, many national and international companies, Gov'ts, and institutions like the military. Getting a visible tat is a conscious decision, not an accident.


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## pollopicu

Phatch, I believe he was just stating his opinion, just like we all are.


> that not hiring someone because they have visible tattoos is completely discriminatory and should not be allowed.


I respectfully disagree with you, Iceman.

Why do ink aficionados want to force this trend into becoming mainstream? That's a decision _they_ made in _their_ life. They weren't born with tattoos. The rest of the world shouldn't have to embrace someone else's risky, poor, and at times reckless decisions/behavior. There are a number of trends that could become popular that wouldn't be appropriate for a number of careers. Like let's say bagel-heads. What's the difference between a bagel-head and a person with tats? they are both forms of expression, right? Where do you draw the line? I think tats in the food business are already mainstream, but to push the envelope even further and _demand_ that people who have their face all scribbled up be treated equally is absurd. To me, and this is just my opinion, they are not equal to me. It shows a lack of common sense, sensibility towards society, and recklessness. I was wild when I was young too, but I was smart enough to never do anything that dumb, because I knew down the road I wanted to be accepted by society as a whole, as much as I could. But you see, most people who get tats, although they'll deny it to the grave, get them to show society they don't care what society thinks about them. Oh but they do care. They care when it's time to get a job and be taken seriously.

I swear to you that when I see someone with a tattoo on their face, I immediately think "what an idiot, who would do that to themselves?", and if I'm an employer, there's no way I would hire an idiot. I would want to hire someone who first and foremost has common sense. Tat on the face is a dead giveaway. That's not to say there aren't many, *many* talented people in this world with facial tattoos. Of course there are, but they better make sure they are TALENTED beyond belief, and have the hands of God on a plate.

I think the point one of the posters were trying to make about the chef tattoo photograph is that yes, they all have tattoos, but they were at least smart _enough_ to have them where if they were invited to a dinner at the white house, they could be easily concealed. None of them appear to have face or hand tattoos.

If someone feels unjustly labeled, or discriminated against because they have tattoos, then they should consider having the tattoos removed. Not the other way around, where people have to accept their once impetuous decision and behavior. It's a perfect example of the offensive becoming offended.


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## phatch

My point was that tattoos carry a message about the owner. Everyone else gets to interpret that message however they will. The person with the tattoo is not in control of how that message is received, even if received wrongly.  That's the price of this sort of communication. One of the powers of symbols and art is that it can mean different things at different times to different people.

Businesses must control the messages they send to their customers. If an employee can't communicate the way the business needs to, then that employee is not going to work out there.


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## pollopicu

Very good point.


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## dobzre

To the original poster:

There are plenty of tattooed, short sleeve shirt, spiky haired, facial piercing, jeans and tennis shoe wearing chefs out there. I vividly remember my very first chef telling me "when you have your own place you can do whatever you want."

I agree will pollopicu, how can one in the same breath demand someone accept them whilst calling anyone not accepting them a bigot of sorts? All of these behaviors are voluntary and speak to the mental state of the individual. This seems to be an epidemic among young cooks. To walk into a tattoo parlor and tell the artist "I want a grilled cheese sandwich on my forehead" tells me I need not even interview this person as they may have maturity issues. You may respond with "but no one would get that stupid tat on their face!" and my response to that would be "what makes one tattoo more legitimate over the other? THEN we'll be having a debate over which tats are legitimate (ones that employers should overlook) or not, and that is not the issue. Whether you like it or not you will hit a road block, the moment you get a tattoo, piercing, wear jeans in the kitchen, you put yourself in a box labeled "judgement." Being a chef is an occupation far older than all of us and most people take pride in their work and maintain the utmost of professionalism. If you want to be in the fine dining world, things as simple as facial stubble are frowned upon but a tattoo on your face?!? A chef in the fine dining world is becoming more and more of a white collar job and you will be serving other white collar workers, when they come into your restaurant you can bet none of them have facial tats, piercings, and sneakers on. 

Ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen.


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## Iceman

Let me just add this, as a point of reference ...


> To the original poster:


The OP was made *12/21/06*. That's going on seven(7) years now. Another point is that the original poster has not made any subsequent posts. 

_We work in kitchens ... it ain'te rocket-surgery. _


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## foodpump

Well then, why did you respond to the thread two days ago?


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## Iceman

*LOL*. _Crack me up. You're funny. _

I've responded to the conversation of this thread. My last response was just as a _"heads up"_ to *Dobzre* so that he wouldn't so much wait for a response from the OP.


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## chef daveed

I have to agree with the majority here. Personality has nothing to do with anything when someone walks in inked visibly i.e. neck, face below the elbows; it's just a matter of preference and the type of clientel being served. Tattooing has been around for ages and isn't going anywhere and I don't personally have anything against them. Just some advice, if you get them, think first about the impression you will make with tatts on you neck, face, hands, fingers and so forth.


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## foodpump

A-yup, tattoos _Have_ been around for centuries, just not socially accepted in Europe and N.America. F'rinstance the Nazi's would tattoo Jews on the forearm which was instantly recognizable, but tattoo the SS in the armpit (blood type only) where it wasn't recognizable and thus socially accepted. But I digress

But I disagree that visible tats have nothing to do with personality--it's all about personality.

I see what you _want_ me to see.

If I see visible tats, I see an eejit who screwed up his/her face for life. If you have teardrops on your cheeks, I see someone who killed someone. If I see gang tats, I see trouble--which is why the H.A.'s are being told NOT to display tats in public, enforced by the cops and the judicial system.

Face it, the only reason tats exist, is to attract attention.


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## sirbeefsteak

Hahah on a fun note if your thinking about getting a tatt and your not sure at the local craft store (hobby lobby or whatever) they have tatt paper where you can make your own lick and stick you could for shi**s and giggles have someone draw your tatt and try it out for a bit before getting it. Cheesy yes but your stuck with the real thing so might as well try it out first. And worried how you will be perceived at local joint your job whatever?  Draw up your tatt print it and give it a test run if you dont run into problems with employer or whatever then get said tattoo.


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