# Pizza-dough; what kind of flour do you use?



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Let me start by saying that I'm not an experienced pizza maker at all. I can count the pizzas I made on one hand!

Not all that long ago, I was watching one of our chefs, from Sicilian origin, visiting a flour mill in his birth region in Sicily, making _semola di grano duro rimacinata_ or in short _semola rimacinata_. He said that Sicilians use it for almost anything; pasta, cakes but also for pizza. I did a bit of research and found out that most pizzas are made with _semola di grano tenero typo "00"_ and in many cases both flours are mixed, especially for making pasta.

Both flours are very hard to find in my country, but, on a website I learned that _semola di grano duro rimacinata _is sold in Turkish and Moroccan shops under several names; semoule de Normandie, semoule de blé dur, Irmik... Anyway, it mostly says "semolina" and "Fine". I never knew it was available in such large quantities; I found 5 kilogram paper bags in Moroccan shops, which is way too much for us. But then I found this 500 gram pack from TRS. I happen to buy dozens of spices packed by this company for many years now, also only available in etnic shops.

So, I gave this _semolina fine_ a try for a pizza-dough made with 300 grams of _fine semolina_ or _semoule fine_ in french, 20 grams fresh bakers yeast which was a left-over that I still had in my freezer, 1 tsp of salt, 2 tbsp of olive oil, 50 grams of lukewarm water to dissolve the yeast in and nearly 170 ml of cold water (the recipe recommends 80-100 ml). The _fine semolina _absorbed the water very quickly but in the end gave me a very sticky wet dough. The yeast did a good job: it doubled the dough in size in 1 hours at room temperature.

Impossible to roll out, I simply flattened it by hand on an oven-tray, put homemade tomato sauce on, ham, parmezan and oregano. Baked at 240°C for 15 minutes. It came out fantastic! The dough perfectly golden at the bottom, nice crust but thousands of tiny bubbles in the dough and very pleasant to eat.

*So, what kind of flour do you use/recommend? Any comment on my experiment?*

I will certainly try this _semoule fine _for pasta too!





  








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## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I like to use a combination of mostly allpurpose white flour (King Arthur) with a bit of 00 semolina flour that I buy from a local bakery.  I don't measure any ingredients, I just throw it all in a bowl and mix mix mix (flour, semolina, yeast, sugar, water, olive oil, salt and sometimes sumac), and let it rise.  I quite like it.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

Home ground and sifted organic wheat flour. Extra fine grind.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Flour classification in my country is different from European classification. For instance 000 flour is a more coarse flour. Some of my Italian friends use variable % of semolina for pastas and pizzas. This is also variable according to which style of pizza do you want.

However, what changed my perspective of pizza dough was cold ferment 48-72 hours in the fridge, a phenomenon i thought impossible. That prolonged period and cold temperature change the structure of the dough (don't ask me chemical details) and enhances flavor and texture.

Also, I found that my oven (like yours, Chris) reaches a low temperature in comparison with wood ovens, so I usually pre-bake to avoid a soggy pizza.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

why do I suspect that every "successful" / "well known pizzeria" in any town in any country on any continent has "the one true way" to make a pizza dough?

which poses an even bigger question:  "What is the perfect pizza dough/crust?"

to which the answer is "The One You Like"

then, sigh, there is the issue of "technique" and how it affects the crust.  doing a pizza on a stone floor at 700-750'F / 372-399'C makes for vastly different results than a home oven.  add to the mix:  in a home done with an oven stone, on a rack, done on a cookie sheet . . . .

you can get "the best pizza crust recipe in the world" and when done in a home oven on a solid cookie sheet, turns out gooey on the  bottom.....

>>long low temp rising
any bread baker will likely agree a yeast based dough with long slow rising "improves" the taste / flavor.

the problem of course is:  when I get the "we want pizza" order, I've got about 4-5 hours.  if "the best dough" requires overnight in the fridge to develop the flavor, 4-5 hours notice is not sufficient; 24 hours notice is better.....

bottom line:  it's a combination of the recipe and the technique.

I use Jamie Oliver's pizza dough recipe - a mix of "hard flour" (aka breads flour aka high gluten flour) with "semolina" in a home oven set to 500'F / 260'C on a preheated pizza stone.  works for me, may not work for you.


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## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

I use King Arthur bread flour for my crusts.  Should make a batch tonight, time for a fresh tomato pizza!

mjb.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Also, do not forget:


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

I use whatever I have, most often All Purpose unbleached flour.





  








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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I've been reaching for bread flour the last few years.  Because of how flour is rated here in the US, the difference between AP and bread flour isn't as large as would be ideal, but I think bread flour gives the dough more of what I'm looking from from the crust.


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## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

>>Because of how flour is rated here in the US,

not to grind a fine point into atoms, however comma but - so far as I've been able to determine there is no "how flour is rated" in USA - any miller / brand / private label can put any description on any type/kind/grind/protein content/gluten content/ash content they choose.

there are "generally accepted" guidelines published by everybody from whacko's to respectable industry groups as to the protein / gluten content of (insert descriptor here) flour - but none is legally binding.

or?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

It's true, no standard exists for rating the flour in the US. But you used to be able to infer it from the protein percentage on the nutritional analysis for 1 cup of flour.

But then they changed the serving size to 1/4 cup. And with the rounding allowed, all types of flour can rate at 3 grams protien and most do. Though the actual % range within that measurement could be from 9-14% protien.

This is a little bit helpful. http://www.theartisan.net/ProteinComparisons.htm A chart from one of Shirley Corriher's books, probably Bakewise.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

I use a bread flour (after all, pizza originated from leftover bread dough!) , with a protein percentage of 13%.

usually I make mine with my sourdough starter, much more flavor..... 

sometimes I mix in one third fine polenta flour to give extra crunch!

if you need any help , since I am not that far from you just send PM. 

you can do tipo 00 but a good high protein bread flour will do the trick aside from good yeast, long proof, etc...

hmmm.

I am making things more complicated I believe, for you  but offer stands.


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks for the kind offer, Soesje. Does the flour you use have an identification, I mean like type 55 or type 80 or any other?

After reading the responses here and a little more on the internet, many suggest to use a _strong_ flour designated for bread making. By strong flour, they mean high gluten I presume, but as mentioned here a few times, the protein content seems to be important too. Anyway, the stuff I used has a high gluten content too.

I found a website (in dutch) that says translated in english;


> _Semola di grano duro rimacinata; subtle yellow colored semolina from extra strong wheat. Absorbs moist much faster than a regular semola (flour) and is easier to roll and process. Used for focaccia, pizza and fresh pasta with egg. Can be mixed with more fine flour to obtain a crunchier golden brown crust._


One thing I haven't mentioned about semola rimacinata is that incredible nice smell, somewhat sour, almost like fresh baker's yeast. Many may recognize the same smell from store bought "artisanal" fresh pasta. The last sentence in the quote may be the most relevant, namely mixing it with another flour to get the crust crunchier. That's probably why FF's pizza looks so incredible?

I never tried sourdough yeast, but I'm very intrigued. Thanks Ordo for that link, making sourdough yeast looks much easier than I thought.

Also, in my previous pizza attempt months ago, I let the dough prove for about four hours in my cool cellar. Most spectacular result was that we had zero digestion problems, something we always have when eating pizza, even with this last one made from semola rimacinata. Next time, it's back to a long proving.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

As far as I understand it, gluten = protein, and the more gluten (or protein), the more the flour is going to be labeled "bread", the less gluten, the more the flour is going to be labeled "cake". And the difference between bread and cake is that bread has big chewy holes while cake has soft tiny holes. 

So I understand that the more elasticity you want, the more gluten you'll need. 

The reason I'm fine with using AP is that I'm happy with my results and I don't feel like my dough should be more bread-like, or more chewy, or with bigger holes. I'd like to try bread flour though to see the difference. Maybe with bread flour I'd have less difficulty stretching the dough and I could make larger, thinner pizzas?

I don't let the dough rise for that long, and I try to let the dough rise in a warm, damp environment, not a cool one. I make a dough ball, oil it, and put it in a bowl covered with plastic wrap or a damp towel, and wait for it to double (that typically takes about 1/2 an hour). Then I punch it down, form a new ball, and again let it double (about another 1/2 an hour). Then I punch it down again and make my pizza.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

chris, I use Soezie boerenwit, from Aveve. Dunno if thats still available in belgium, from where it originates.

use that for almost everything I bake.

FrenchFries is right in his description of gluten/ protein.

there is, by the way, no such thing as sourdough YEAST  

its either sourdough, OR yeast.

sourdough is water and flour, and in it live the wild yeasts, which are in the air that surround us.

its entirely different.... 

as for the long proof traject, thats a good step.

next time, use HALF the yeast (preferably FRESH yeast that comes in cakes from the shop/ baker as it gives much better flavor than dried) as you normally would.

let proof for say half an hour / 45 minutes. 

place in fridge, covered with plastic wrap and just let it proof for half a day or so (12 hours) then proceed with the recipe.

this process is called retarding, you retard (slow down) the yeast beasties, more flavor develops.

I am interested in your flour...your description sounded like something I'd like to try. which site did you get the info from?


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

Soesje said:


> this process is called retarding, you retard (slow down) the yeast beasties, more flavor develops.


I had no idea, thank you for sharing that information Soesje!


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

its also a technique used by bakers to develop more flavor in their bread. so if you are baking your own by hand you could try this.

I used to do a overnight retarding, making dough in evening, first proof, then deflate and shape, do a partial proof, put in fridge covered (or in a banneton/ basket etc like french do) 

in morning take out, uncover, meanwhile heat oven. 

bake as usual.

I have to add that these days I mainly do this with sourdough bread depending on my work schedule but I have used it with yeast too.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

Soesje, is it ok to let the dough in the fridge for more than 12 hours? The only times I can be in the kitchen is in the evening, can I make my dough one evening, leave it in the fridge for 24 hours and bake the next evening?


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

you can try that. I have done so with sourdough ....delayed it a day because I was busy.....

depends on your yeast too. but if you don't use the full amount I don't see a problem ....

try it.  what have you got to lose? nothing......just a bit of dough...its how you develop as a cook, by experimenting!


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

FrenchFries, yeast grows and multiplies. If you start with less yeast, it will simply take longer to grow, thus delaying the proofing.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

Great, thank you for that info to both Pete and Soesje.


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Soesje said:


> chris, I use Soezie boerenwit, from Aveve. Dunno if thats still available in belgium, from where it originates.
> 
> use that for almost everything I bake.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip on the flour, Soesje. I shouldn't have a problem finding the Aveve "Boerenwit". Aveve is a Belgian company which owns dozens of garden centers in Flanders which also sell all their baking products. As you may have noticed, I'm such an idiot when it comes to baking!

The sourdough is something I might try soon, seems not all that difficult and the idea of cultivating wild yeast makes me want to try it even more. You may know that a number of Belgian beers are fermenting in open containers to allow wild yeasts to do their thing (lambic and eventually the gueuze made with lambic beers of different age). As an aside, I hear some people even make bread with beer yeast. Never tasted or made anything with beer yeast though.

I will certainly try your slow fermenting method with less yeast next times.

Here's the website you asked; http://puurculinair.blogspot.be/2009/04/tarwe.html

There's a lot of info on flour to be found, but the experience of people on this forum always makes more sense and is so much more practical. However, I kind of liked the no-nonsense in dutch here; http://www.zelfmaakrecepten.nl/bloem-en-meel-soorten/


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## j20832 (Mar 9, 2013)

When I started making pizza, I used the Antico Caputo "00" and got some very good results.  The problem I found was that even at 550F (the highest I can currently go), the crust would only brown sufficiently if I had the luxury of a 3-4 day cold ferment in the fridge.  Because I don't always plan that far ahead, I experimented with some other flours and my favorite now is King Arthur "Sir Lancelot" it is their highest gluten flour line.  With the Sir Lancelot, I bake at a lower temperature (usually 450-475F depending on toppings) and get adequate browning at the same time as the cheese and toppings being done without having to parbake the crust.  It also makes great bagels, but that is another story for another thread...


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

j20832 said:


> When I started making pizza, I used the Antico Caputo "00" and got some very good results. The problem I found was that even at 550F (the highest I can currently go), the crust would only brown sufficiently if I had the luxury of a 3-4 day cold ferment in the fridge. Because I don't always plan that far ahead, I experimented with some other flours and my favorite now is King Arthur "Sir Lancelot" it is their highest gluten flour line. With the Sir Lancelot, I bake at a lower temperature (usually 450-475F depending on toppings) and get adequate browning at the same time as the cheese and toppings being done without having to parbake the crust. It also makes great bagels, but that is another story for another thread...


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## j20832 (Mar 9, 2013)

MaryB said:


> j20832 said:
> 
> 
> > When I started making pizza, I used the Antico Caputo "00" and got some very good results. The problem I found was that even at 550F (the highest I can currently go), the crust would only brown sufficiently if I had the luxury of a 3-4 day cold ferment in the fridge. Because I don't always plan that far ahead, I experimented with some other flours and my favorite now is King Arthur "Sir Lancelot" it is their highest gluten flour line. With the Sir Lancelot, I bake at a lower temperature (usually 450-475F depending on toppings) and get adequate browning at the same time as the cheese and toppings being done without having to parbake the crust. It also makes great bagels, but that is another story for another thread...


Again, I have experimented. I started with a standard pizza stone, which cracked when I tried to make a calzone on it. Then I used a double layer of quarry tile, which worked great except it was a hassle to assemble and remove. (If I left it in all the time, the oven took forever to preheat). Finally I settled on a pizza screen used on the lowest rack of the oven and am very happy with the convenience and lack of burnt flour taste. My next experiment will probably be a thick sheet of steel which I hear works well, but have no personal experience with. At some point, I will probably convert one of my charcoal grills (weber 22") into a pizza oven, maybe next summer....


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

as for the pizza stones. usually they are thinner than one inch meaning they are too thin to carry the heat well.

as for the quarry tiles, those should be the unglazed kind, and you should preheat the oven with the tiles starting one hour before you want to bake.

tiles should be the thick type.

you could even use normal bricks if you wanted.

tip: when you put the pizza in, place pizza on baking parchment, then directly on the tiles or whatever you are using.

makes for easier removal.  usually pizzas are baked at high temp, I use the highest setting to start heating and when I put pizza in lower it to 440F/ 220 C or about that


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## j20832 (Mar 9, 2013)

Soesje said:


> as for the pizza stones. usually they are thinner than one inch meaning they are too thin to carry the heat well.
> 
> as for the quarry tiles, those should be the unglazed kind, and you should preheat the oven with the tiles starting one hour before you want to bake.
> 
> ...


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

I just use whatever flour I have on hand.

Normally bread flour.

I always thought it was incredibly difficult to make pizza at home

Then at one point in time I got Mark Bitman's book "how to cook everything" and he made it sound simple, so I tried and it worked!

I still use his recipe more or less, except I no longer use the food processor (too much of a pain to clean up) and quite often add some mixed herbs and garlic to the crust.

I roll the dough out very very thin as I like a crispy bottom.

I have a big cast iron hot plate that I heat up in the oven and that's what I bake the pizza on (at the highest oven setting, as that is not very high in case of my oven /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif)


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

chrisbelgium, its quite funny......I visited the site puurculinair for the flour and.... HEHE didn't I say that sometimes I add fine polenta flour to my breadflour when making pizza.

that is exactly what it is..... semolina flour = maize flour = polenta flour.... or at least, THIS type......not all semolina makes polenta !!!


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Soesje, I'm not a specialist in baking goods but what I think I understand is that there's a difference between what we call in Dutch "bloem"  or flour in English and what we call in Dutch "meel" or meal in English. Don't shoot me, but I guess the difference is how fine it has been grinded. Then there is "griesmeel" meaning semolina in several other languages. I believe semolina comes in a variety of degrees of grinding from fine to coarse but even fine semolina will always be somewhat more coarse than meal (?).

For what it's worth; The word semolina more or less expresses what it is; semi (half) and Molina like you can find with a little imagination in the French word "moulu", meaning grinded in English. Semolina means (more or less) partially grinded.

Coarse semolina made from maize or corn is indeed polenta but there's also semolina from wheat. When it's a fine wheat semolina it's like the type I used, semola rimacinata or simply semoule fine like in Moroccan shops, also made from wheat. I'm not sure at all, but my guess is that the Moroccan semolina is used for hand-rolling couscous, which is in fact nothing else than some kind of pasta made with wheat and water. Also, there's indeed fine semolina from maize which is more like a corn meal.

I have to add, since I read a lot about baking pizza here, that I've seen bakers throw a good handful of polenta in their wood oven first before adding their bread. Again I have to guess that it's about creating some sort of a non-stick layer on the stones of the oven, or more likely, creating a better crust at the bottom (?).

My oven goes to 240°C and I'm quite surprised about the result of my pizza dough. It could definitely also be the fact that my dough was very wet, but it came out light golden brown, also at the bottom, which is many times a problem with low temperature ovens.


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## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

oh chris   

yes meel and flour are the same thing.

BUT griesmeel/ semolina is the exception BECAUSE of the grind.

when someone mentions meel/ flour then we all know, ah you can bake bread/ cake with that because its finely ground.

while griesmeel/ semolina is differently ground because we do usually not bake bread with it but instead make a cooked breakfast like porridge, or make polenta, or a dessert....and that grind needs to take liquids differently.

not that I need a lecture on what semolina is, BUT I was trying to keep things simple because this is not a pro board , just people who love cooking, and make things easy to understand.

you are of course, right in your explanation and indeed there are two kinds of semolina.

as for throwing polenta FLOUR  in the oven first before putting pizza in yes that creates a smooth base so that its easy to move the pizza around and in/ out oven.

I do that too when I bake my loaves, sprinkle the board with polenta flour, put the proofed bread on, then slide it in the oven. 

you can do that with pizza dough on a smooth board too, you'll see the dough glides right onto the surface where you want to bake the pizza on.

does nothing for the taste otherwise.

as for your oven result/ pizza recipe.

don't forget originally pizzas were baked in very hot, usually wood fired or stone ovens for just a few mins... we can always try to recplicate this.

hot baking gives better crust, so you can shorten the baking time if needed.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Chris: what about a devilish automatic pizza machine. 2.5 minutes and voilá. Hot chick btw!


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## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Ordo, I want one of those! Not sure if I need the pizza machine too.


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## maryb (Mar 21, 2008)

I can highly recommend these http://bakingstone.com/shop/home_oven/ mine is going on 4 years old and has had a lot of breads and pizza made on it. Holds heat well. One of my free form pizzas:





  








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