# whats difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder



## jojoco

I have a recipe that calls for cacao powder and i cant find it, is it the same as cocoa powder


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## scott123

Yes, it's the same.


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## spoonbread

[QUOTE whats difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder 
][/QUOTE]
Spelling.:bounce:


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## felixe the dog

**** spoonbread, you beat me to it.


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## goodcatchm

Raw cacao powder is unadulterated and contains many more nutrients than traditional cocoa powder. It's sold mostly via health food stores and online retailers. Just google raw cacao powder to find retailers like rawguru.com, vitacost.com, and livesuperfoods.com which all sell the product (note: this is not an endorsement of any retailer). Many of these retailer sites also promote the benefits of "raw cacao powder." Many recipes are also found on the internet for such things as a banana cacao smoothie. Cacao in its natural state contains no sugars. Ehow.com describes the difference between raw cacao powder and cocoa powder this way: 

"Pure, unsweetened cocoa powder tastes very bitter and rich, which is why it is most often used in sweets and confections. To get cocoa powder from the cacao bean, the nibs are first ground into a strong paste. The fat is removed, and the remaining solids are ground up again into a fine dust: cocoa powder. Because of its drying properties, using cocoa powder in a cake often requires the use of more shortening or butter in the recipe. 

According to FDA guidelines, cocoa powder and cacao powder are simply different terms for the same powder, and are nearly interchangeable; however, "cacao powder" specifically refers to raw, unsweetened powder. "Cocoa powder," on the other hand, may still have a very small amount of cocoa butter present to enhance the flavor subtly."


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## cocoalady

..and here is my reasoning and experience of 15 years in the cocoa business, and as a chemical engineer.

Cocoa powder and cacao powder is the same.
What is considered "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit...which is already an almost impossible scenario, since cocoa beans are grown in the Equator, and you may exceed that temperature while drying in the patio under the sun covered with black linens (to heat it up and allow the fermentation of the bean)....and yes, you need to dry them, otherwise they will rotten in a few days, and the shell will be too difficult to peel off.

Back to cocoa powder....
ALL cocoa powder comes from the cocoa bean, which without the shell is called cocoa nib (a.k.a. cacao nib). The first step is grinding of the nib (which again, when you grind something to such small particle size you will create a lot of friction with -that's right - heat!). That will give you the cocoa/cacao paste (a.k.a. cacao mass or liquor), which has about 50 to 56% fat (cocoa butter) in it...and ALL cocoa powders have to go through that stage.

Next stage is to take some of that butter away, which the raw community claims can be done through "cold pressing". For any that don't understand that term, cold pressing is done with oils like olive oil to preserve the oil almost intact by cooling the press plates while applying pressure (pressure generates heat, therefore it needs to be cooled). But here is a reminder, olive oil is liquid in room temperature, cocoa butter is SOLID, and it STARTS melting at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit ... so, you cannot control and cool it to a point where it will be still in a solid phase, because it cannot be pressed and "flow" out.

Last operation is to grind the solids left in the press, again - heat...and there is your cocoa powder or cacao powder... you tell me if you call it "raw", a term not defined by the FDA for cocoa, and that can be used by anyone just to sell the cocoa to a much higher price. Maybe that is why bigger, more serious companies don't have this product, since they do not want to be liable for false advertising...

Regarding "Raw" cocoa nibs or cocoa beans...yes, that is possible, and the only concern is the high bacteriological plate count... but how much you want to train your immune system is up to each individual. And yes, the less manipulated the cocoa, the more polyphenols and healthy chemicals you will obtain from it. 

There is also a difference between alkalized or ducthed powders, and the natural ones (which do not contain any potassium carbonate), being the second ones the ones containing more of the healthy properties (antioxidants). But that is totally different than claiming a "raw" cocoa powder.

So, that is my explanation, and again, I respect anyone's opinion on what they want to eat or how they want to consume it. I just disagree with misleading the general public just to make juicy profits.


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## goodcatchm

Thanks for the information. I don't mind being corrected. This has been a learning process for me. Perhaps I was misguided and misinformed.


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## mr.pastry

Or could that be CacaoLady? ;-) 

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. You took the words right off of my keyboard.

It is frustrating to me when foodies, and especially "professional" chefs buy in to the erroneous claims to simply attempt to squeeze more unearned profits out of the unsuspecting public. 

I think it is Barnum who is quoted as saying that there is a fool born every minute.  These days I think that there is a sheister born every other minute at least.

Best thing to keep in mind is; buyer beware. Don't just swallow every piece of information thrown at you. Investigate and inform yourself of the facts. - And no; I don't mean look it up on Wikipedia. That too must be taken with a grain of salt (so to speak - and another one of those new marketing gimmicks for chocolate).

Cheers!


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## bekazu

thanks for the insight

I have seen this in several different places and I have to admit I am sceptical as to the raw claims as well. I am a massive chocoholic and have a great interest in how foods are processed and what it takes to "get them to the plate" so I've done a bit of research. Everything I've found agrees that the "Raw" label is hype. Cocoa in it's raw state bears no resemblence to powder at all so it seems to me this is how people make what they want to eat fit into their chosen diet. 

But hey I'm skeptical by nature & it's just my opininon


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## homemadecook

In short, if you’re after the raw product, go for ‘cacao’ whereas ‘cocoa’ refers to the processed product.


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## tuscan chef

Well it's the same, but not all the powder are the same.
However here in Italy we have only CACAO (cocoa does not exist as a word) so if there was a difference we would have had two kinds of CACAO powder. The difference is on the ingredients and here labels HAVE to tell you percentage of cacao, where it comes from, percentage of cacao butter and so one.


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## homemadecook

Cocoa powder is made when chocolate liquor is pressed to remove three quarters of its cocoa butter. The remaining cocoa solids are processed to make fine unsweetened cocoa powder. There are two types of unsweetened cocoa powder: natural and Dutch-processed.
Read more: http://www.joyofbaking.com/cocoa.html#ixzz1FSltJ9zn


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## beginnervegan

Thanks to all for the info on cocoa and cacao. With the different percentages in solid cocoa bars on the store shelves I get thoroughly confused.


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## j phares funk

Thanks so much for the information.  I'm interested in the oxalic acid content of cocoa or cacao.  I am trying to get my husbands oxalic acid count in his body up to help fight his cancer.  I know this is  balancing act because your body will produce citric acid to eliminate the oxalic acid when it gets too high in the kidney.  Anyway, any information or source of information you may have about chocolate and oxalic acid would be appreciated.

thanks j


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## petalsandcoco

J Phares Funk,

I would first like to welcome you to Cheftalk. Cancer is such a terrible enemy and I would like to offer you my full support. As you know increasing those levels is something that you may want to discuss with a urologist .

There are other foods that have high levels of oxalic acid like; spinach ( higher than cocoa), rhubarb, parsley and beetroot . Urologists know this info as well and can give you the latest info pertaining to the various foods and their percentages.(ppm-parts per million)

Just a thought.

Petals.


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## dave891

I was curious as to when I read the nutrition label on one can called 100% cocoa power it contains 1 gram od protien and when I look at the lable of a can or bag labeled 100% Raw cacac powder is claims 4 grams of protien. Both are certified organic.

 is this a rip off by the company claiming the 4 grams?


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## fitnessdiva

CocoaLady said:


> ..and here is my reasoning and experience of 15 years in the cocoa business, and as a chemical engineer.
> 
> Cocoa powder and cacao powder is the same.
> What is considered "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit...which is already an almost impossible scenario, since cocoa beans are grown in the Equator, and you may exceed that temperature while drying in the patio under the sun covered with black linens (to heat it up and allow the fermentation of the bean)....and yes, you need to dry them, otherwise they will rotten in a few days, and the shell will be too difficult to peel off.
> 
> Back to cocoa powder....
> ALL cocoa powder comes from the cocoa bean, which without the shell is called cocoa nib (a.k.a. cacao nib). The first step is grinding of the nib (which again, when you grind something to such small particle size you will create a lot of friction with -that's right - heat!). That will give you the cocoa/cacao paste (a.k.a. cacao mass or liquor), which has about 50 to 56% fat (cocoa butter) in it...and ALL cocoa powders have to go through that stage.
> 
> Next stage is to take some of that butter away, which the raw community claims can be done through "cold pressing". For any that don't understand that term, cold pressing is done with oils like olive oil to preserve the oil almost intact by cooling the press plates while applying pressure (pressure generates heat, therefore it needs to be cooled). But here is a reminder, olive oil is liquid in room temperature, cocoa butter is SOLID, and it STARTS melting at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit ... so, you cannot control and cool it to a point where it will be still in a solid phase, because it cannot be pressed and "flow" out.
> 
> Last operation is to grind the solids left in the press, again - heat...and there is your cocoa powder or cacao powder... you tell me if you call it "raw", a term not defined by the FDA for cocoa, and that can be used by anyone just to sell the cocoa to a much higher price. Maybe that is why bigger, more serious companies don't have this product, since they do not want to be liable for false advertising...
> 
> Regarding "Raw" cocoa nibs or cocoa beans...yes, that is possible, and the only concern is the high bacteriological plate count... but how much you want to train your immune system is up to each individual. And yes, the less manipulated the cocoa, the more polyphenols and healthy chemicals you will obtain from it.
> 
> There is also a difference between alkalized or ducthed powders, and the natural ones (which do not contain any potassium carbonate), being the second ones the ones containing more of the healthy properties (antioxidants). But that is totally different than claiming a "raw" cocoa powder.
> 
> So, that is my explanation, and again, I respect anyone's opinion on what they want to eat or how they want to consume it. I just disagree with misleading the general public just to make juicy profits.


This is the BEST explanation I've found!


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## mr.pastry

Harleeg said:


> Thank you for the info CocoaLady. Just wondering, have you heard of Crio Bru? I'm wondering if it is just another name for cocoa beans, raw or otherwise. I'm confused. Could it be another consumer con? I would be very interested on your opinion on this. http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...HNB_dMkzjnBg_sWbA&sig2=UseJ-iJbaMTc4FIVU7XmWA


The "Bru" part is a brand name. Crio is a type or genus of cocoa bean known for it particular flavor, or bitterness. If memory serves; it is only grown in certain regions of South America.


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## jayadeva kavi

J Phares Funk,

taro leaves are high in oxalic acid, and cooking the leaves neutralises it.  My friend was poisoned when he didn't cook the leaves thoroughly.  Lucky I could taste there was something wrong so i didn't eat it.

taro is found in the pacific islands, and we also get it here, in New Zealand


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## abrogard

Let's get it straight.  I think cocoalady had the definitive explanation by majority agreement.  Her explanation, I think, was that the two substances are supposed to be different but that the supposed difference is unreal, unattainable, not true, doesn't happen.

 Right here:    "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

 So there's the answer: Under today's technology they're theoretically different but practically the same.

 agreed?

 

p.s.  Hence a good drink of cocoa is virtually as good as a piece of chocolate.


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## benp

J Phares Funk said:


> Thanks so much for the information. I'm interested in the oxalic acid content of cocoa or cacao. I am trying to get my husbands oxalic acid count in his body up to help fight his cancer. I know this is balancing act because your body will produce citric acid to eliminate the oxalic acid when it gets too high in the kidney. Anyway, any information or source of information you may have about chocolate and oxalic acid would be appreciated.
> 
> thanks j


Further to petalsandcoco's reply, Sorrel is also very high in oxalic acid, can be found abundantly wild (at least in the UK) or easily grown from seed (and it's a pretty hardy plant), and tastes delicious (quite strong citrus flavours, great in salad). There is something else wild that is also high in oxalic acid, but I can't remember off the top of my head. I guess you already know that too much oxalic acid in one go can be dangerous and painful.

You may also want to research Soursop & THC oil (I have no experience in their effects on fighting cancer - I have heard that they are both very effective, but also that they have been debunked).

Hope that helps, wishing you all the best.


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## lissy

thanks to both Good catch and Cocoa lady

I was not so interested in the 'raw' marketing aspect, just the difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder, as common sense did seem to attest to their similiarity

both these posts have been very helpful and interesting as i love to know about the origins of foods

CAN ANYONE TELL ME MORE ABOUT 'KONJI'. I KNOW ABOUT KONJI SEEDS (BLACK CUMIN) BUT RECENTLY CAME ACROSS A PRODUCT: LO GI GLUTEN FREE NOODLES WITH KONJI  FLOUR AS THEIR BASE INGREDIENT...??


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## lissy

soory, forgot the topic rule, have started new thread on konji! ta


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## steve larson

Cocolady is implying that the heat in the processing is the heat inadvertantly generated in the process of drying, pressing etc. I enquired one of the suppliers of these products and he gave me the following flow chart for production of cacao powder. He states that the beans are actually roasted, although he does not know the temperature they are subjected to during the roasting process. Here is the flow chart:

*Flow Chart for the Production of Cocoa*

*Powder Natural *

Cocoa Beans

Cleaning and

Roasting

Winnowing and

Milling

Refining/

Sterilization

Pressing

Breaking

Pulverized and

Screening

Metal Detection

Cocoa Powder

Pulverized and

Screening

Winnowing and

Milling

Cleaning and

Roasting

Refining/

Sterilization

Pressing

Breaking

Metal Detection

Cocoa Powder

*The information given is based on our current knowledge and*

*experience, and may be used at your discretion and risk*


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## suz organics

Actually, they are quite different products. Here is how cacao pdr is made

How is Raw Cacao Powder Made?
The process starts with premium Criollo variety of cacao beans. The organic cacao beans are cold pressed into a paste and then pressed at a maximum temperature of 116 degrees to remove fats and oils. The remainder is cold-ground to produce the Organic Raw Cacao Powder.

And this is coco pdr. 

To make Dutched cocoa powder, chocolate liquor is pumped into giant hydraulic presses, where about half of the cocoa butter is squeezed out. Baking soda is added to the remaining material, which is called "press cake." The treated press cake is then cooled, pulverized, and sifted to form cocoa powder.

if you do some research you will see the heating changes the nutritional value of the nibs


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## yummie

I recently bought organic cocao nibs and put them in the thermomix for a few seconds and now have cocao powder, without anything being taken away from it or added to it. Perfect.


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## foodpump

> To make Dutched cocoa powder, chocolate liquor is pumped into giant hydraulic presses, where about half of the cocoa butter is squeezed out. Baking soda is added to the remaining material, which is called "press cake." The treated press cake is then cooled, pulverized, and sifted to form cocoa powder.


No dearie, "Dutched" is a process where the entire bean is treated with alkalai, it's purpose is to remove bitterness. However, a good bean should not be bitter. It is then roasted, ground, milled, etc. "Dutching" was invented by Van Houten back in the 1800's.

Also, more than "half" of the cocoa butter is removed, a lot more. A bean contains well over 52% cocoa butter, usually there is 10-12% residual cocoa butter in the cocoa powder. If there is any more, you wouldn't get cocoa powder.


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## mutopian

I hope your husband's cancer treatment is going well.  Re oxalic acid, high amounts of oxalic acid such as from sorrel, chocolate/cocoa, and rhubarb, are not recommended as not only does it put a strain on the kidneys which are probably working harder now trying to rid his body of toxins, but can also form kidney stones along with the presence of inorganic calcium from drinking water, for example.  (Distilled water is best to flush out toxins).  If you are going down the antioxidant route, liposomic vitamin C comes highly recommended, which you can make yourself at home (check out vids on youtube, and do try the sodium bicarb as it's cheap and harmless in small doses, anyway), and works better than intravenous vitamin C for oxygenating the tissues, but any anti-cancer regime must eliminate sugar and forms high in sugar which feed cancer, much like it does a fungus.  So cocoa in foods or drinks is good, but chocolate is good and bad because on the one hand it feeds the cancer (through the sugar) and on the other it helps the immune system fight it (through the antioxidants.).  Anyway, good luck, and I hope everything is going well.


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## betsyb

Hi everyone!
I had asked somewhere else what is the difference in ingredients between milk and dark chocolate. I was told that milk had much more sugar. However, many darker chocolates have the same amount of sugar for the same serving as milk chocolates. One of many examples is Hershey's & Dove dark and milk chocolate containing the same amount of sugar for the same serving size. Yet one has a bitter taste, and the other does not. I did find some lower sugar darks since then for my dad to enjoy, yey! Like the 70% and 80% Lindts. But your average dark chocolate has the same amount of sugar as milk....

So I wonder then, what is else is it that makes milk chocolate *milk* ?  I tried using cocoa powder unsweetened and adding sugar one time and erythritol the 2nd time. In both cases the mix turned sweeter, but the bitterness remained. Perhaps a little less bitter, but never did completely go away. And adding more sugar just made it overly sweet while maintaining the bitterness, so just a strong flavor all around. Again it makes me realize there is something else in milk chocolate that is perhaps not in dark? Does anyone know what it is? I hope it's not something not so good for us. As it is, my goal was to make something healthy by using unsweetened cocoa and a non harmful sugar sub.

Any help appreciated, thanks!


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## petemccracken

Uh, milk?


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## kingnothing

BetsyB said:


> Hi everyone!
> I had asked somewhere else what is the difference in ingredients between milk and dark chocolate. I was told that milk had much more sugar. However, many darker chocolates have the same amount of sugar for the same serving as milk chocolates. One of many examples is Hershey's & Dove dark and milk chocolate containing the same amount of sugar for the same serving size. Yet one has a bitter taste, and the other does not. I did find some lower sugar darks since then for my dad to enjoy, yey! Like the 70% and 80% Lindts. But your average dark chocolate has the same amount of sugar as milk....
> 
> So I wonder then, what is else is it that makes milk chocolate *milk* ? I tried using cocoa powder unsweetened and adding sugar one time and erythritol the 2nd time. In both cases the mix turned sweeter, but the bitterness remained. Perhaps a little less bitter, but never did completely go away. And adding more sugar just made it overly sweet while maintaining the bitterness, so just a strong flavor all around. Again it makes me realize there is something else in milk chocolate that is perhaps not in dark? Does anyone know what it is? I hope it's not something not so good for us. As it is, my goal was to make something healthy by using unsweetened cocoa and a non harmful sugar sub.
> 
> Any help appreciated, thanks!


It's actually the cocao butter that is condisdered the 'milk" for milk chocolate


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## betsyb

PeteMcCracken said:


> Uh, milk?


Thanks. Seems like the easy answer but dark chocolate bars seem to also contain milk, and in the same order as milk chocolate. Though I'd like that to be the answer being that it's not some yuck additive. Maybe I should ask you the proportions then? I put whole milk in unsweetened cocoa today and no matter how much sweetness I added, the bitterness still remained. Now though, it was also getting sickeningly sweet. I could never achieve the milk chocolate flavor. What am I doing wrong?


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## betsyb

Thank you King Nothing. So when I buy unsweetened cocoa or cocoa, has the butter been removed?


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## foodpump

KingNothing said:


> It's actually the cocao butter that is condisdered the 'milk" for milk chocolate


Whoa, hold on there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where on god's green earth did you get that information from?????????????????

Milk chocolate-if you read labels, contains cocoa mass (the whole cocoa bean roasted and ground up, which in and of itself contains about 50% cocoa butter) cocoa butter, milk powder, sugar, vanilla, (.5 %) and soy lecethin (.5%) Typical *European* milk chocolates are about 1/3 cocoa mass, 1/3 milk powder, and 1/3 sugar. The EU has strict laws governing Chocolate and milk chocolate, and while Switzerland is not part of the EU (Or the U.N., for that matter) they follow or exceed the EU standards.

Dark chocolate, or "just" chocolate in Europe _can not contain any milk products,_ nothing other than cocoa products, sugar, vanilla and soy lecithin. If it contains milk products, even in amounts as little as 1%, it must be labeled, naturally, as "milk chocolate" The percentages of cocoa content are given on the packaging, ie: 70%, 60%, etc. For a 70% chocolate, 70% is cocoa content and the rest is sugar (well, O.K., 1% for vanilla and soy lecithin)

Now, check the USDA standards for chocolate: For bitter, semi sweet, and sweet chocolate, the _dreck_ must contain a minimum of 35% cocoa content, after that, anything goes. And it frequently does. Hershey's likes to put milk powder in it's "extra dark" chocolate. Paraffin is not unheard of either.

For milk chocolate, the USDA demands a minimum of 10% cocoa content. Yup, ol' Man Hershey musta fought long and hard to get those standards put in place. Now there's some lobbying for ya!

Milk chocolate was invented in Switzerland, a collaboration of two people, the first you know of, and the second you don't. The one you don' t know was Daniel Peters- who didn't have the foresight to patent his new chocolate, and his partner was Henri Nestle--the guy who invented milk powder. (He also invented instant coffee too--Nescafe, but that's another story)

I'd be happy to answer any questions about chocolate, and I do know what I'm talking about.

But please, please, pretty please, read the labels on the chocolate packaging, you can learn a lot from it.


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## betsyb

Wow foodpump you know your stuff! Thanks. The EU standards make a whole lot more sense. So maybe I missed it because I have major headache and it's late, but is unsweetened cocoa powder made from both cocoa solids and cocoa butter? Because I did hear somewhere else about the cocoa butter sometimes being removed?

So sounds like any amount of milk makes it milk chocolate, it's a matter of how much is added to remove the bitterness, combined with sweetners. I guess I didn't use enough milk.

All I can say with certainty is that I will never understand how Hershey's can be the #1 chocolate bar in the world when American chocolate cannot compare to Swiss, Belgian and German. But perhaps it's not just the bar but all Hershey products, but still, their pathetic compared to the quality Europeans make. It's a subjective opinion I guess...but not really once you've had the good stuff!


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## colin

Exactly.  In a Cadbury's Milk chocolate bar, for example, the dominant thing I taste is sweet condensed milk.  A confection aimed at children.

-

Have to say I find the whole idea of healthy chocolate ... entertaining.  It's nice to have nibs available, though -- I had a great dessert the other week involving nibs and pears, which I have to try to reproduce some time.


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## foodpump

Yes, cocoa powder has some cocoa butter in it, usually under 10%.

Look, all nuts--walnuts, almonds, peanuts, etc., naturally contain oil, so does sesame, even grapeseeds  The cocoa bean naturally contains over 50% fat (oil that is solid at room temp is a fat)

  The process for removing the butter--invented by VanHouten in the early 1800's, is nothing more than a hydraulic press.

Good dark chocolate shouldn't be bitter.  Bitterness is a result of the cocoa bean variety, how it was grown, when it was harvested, the fermentation process, and how it was transported.  Obvioulsy, the cheaper beans are bitter.  Sugar is cheap and bulks up the product.


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## betsyb

_Yes, cocoa powder has some cocoa butter in it, usually under 10%. The cocoa bean naturally contains over 50% fat _

Hi foodpump, I have a question about the above comment you made. If cocoa powder has 10% cocoa butter in it, how can it be over 50% fat? And with unsweetened cocoa powder, are any fats removed?

_The process for removing the butter--invented by VanHouten in the early 1800's, is nothing more than a hydraulic press._

When is this above method used? Because generally most chocolates have lots of fat, regardless if their milk or dark. Though with Lindt as the example, there is 20 grams of fat for their 90% cocoa and 28 grams of fat for their 70%. The sugar content decreases as the cocoa content increases in the Lindt (50, 70, 85 and 90%) 13 grams of sugar for their 70% and 3 grams for their 90%. With a dark and milk hershey bar, the fat and sugar remain the same, I don't get that? Their dark and milk taste so different, and yet the sugar and fat don't really change.

_Good dark chocolate shouldn't be bitter. Bitterness is a result of the cocoa bean variety, how it was grown, when it was harvested, the fermentation process, and how it was transported. Obvioulsy, the cheaper beans are bitter. Sugar is cheap and bulks up the product_.

I have heard that about coffee beans as well. And yet, I can honestly say, despite trying chocolates from all over and various coffees, I have yet to try a dark chocolate that is not bitter, or even a semi sweet! Then again, I admit I usually go for the milk chocolates. But Lindt for instance, gets more bitter as you choose a higher % cocoa. And that's a Swiss company, their suppose to be the best.


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## foodpump

No, no, no. The cocoa _*bean *_contains well over 50% cocoa butter.

That bean, when roasted and ground up, is cocoa mass.

When cocoa mass is put into hydraulic presses, you get cocoa butter and the residue-- a huge brown cake, is ground up and this is cocoa powder.

Bitter is subjective.

I go through about 5 cases of Lindt 70% a week at work. I don't find it bitter at all. Then again, I drink my coffee black...


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## betsyb

I agree Lindt 70% is not bitter, it's sort of a semi-sweet, if there was a 75 or 80% I'd call it bitter sweet. I like how it's smooth and just the right creamy-ness. So many bars lack that smooth silky texture. The Lindt super creamy round balls make me sick their so dang creamy. Never thought I'd say something was too creamy. Anyway, I definitely would call the Lindt 85% and 90% cacao very bitter, wouldn't you? But if it's quality chocolate, you said it wouldn't be bitter regardless of cocoa content?


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## foodpump

All depends on what you call bitter, I guess.

Take coffee, for instance.  I happen to think that Mc D's has pretty darn good coffee, and the nice thing about Mc D's is that it is the same all over the world.  I drink it black.  For me, it isn't bitter, just unsweetened.  Same with Earl Grey tea, I drink it plain--no nothing added to it.  I don't find it bitter, just unsweetened.

Bitter melon, I find bitter, bitter almonds I find bitter, walnut and pecan husks are bitter--no amount of sugar can make it "sweet", it'll just be bitter And sweet.


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## jbrown67

What is your favorite cocoa powder to use? If a company such as Wonder Cocoa is saying it has a 99.7% caffeine free product, what exactly does that mean. When I hear this I think that the caffeine has been chemically removed, like in coffee. What do you know about this? I am looking for a high quality product with low caffeine levels that is not outrageously expensive, what is your suggestion?

Thank you!


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## foodpump

Well.... A broken clock still tells the time accurately, albeit only for a minute twice a day.

Cocoa contains very, very, very little true caffeine.  It does, however contain "Theobromiene", which chemically similar to caffeine, but is not caffeine.

Hope this helps


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## rebekah foster

When I was in Costa Rica, we learned to grind the bean for our dessert, and to keep it from coming out as a paste or butter we ground it with rice. Thanks for the information I thought that that was how all powders were made; I will be more selective with my purchases in the future. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif


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## natashar

Today, I had a discussion with a saleswoman at Trader Joes, as I was considering buying the TJ's brand of Cocoa Powder. She was marveling at the price difference between their Cocoa Powder, for $2.99 and the brand sold at Whole Foods across the parking lot for $11+. The brand at Whole Foods calls itself Cacao Powder, a Mayan Superfood. It is certified organic and makes a big deal about its pristine processing on the label. It is sold in the food supplements section, as oppose to the baking section of the store.

I happen to have weaned myself off coffee for hormonal reasons, but I have become hooked on this Mayan Superfood Cacao substance. Whatever they are doing in the processing must maintain the potency of the theobromine (caffeine-like) component. I say this because when I tried the Trader Joe's Cocoa Powder today, at the usual time that I would make myself a cup of the Cacao, I didn't experience any lift at all. I am usually quite euphoric on the expensive stuff.

Now I am extremely curious about the differences in the processing and compositions of these two substances. Inquiring chocoholics need to know.

Navitas Naturals is the company that makes this Cacao Powder. They also list the nutritional content of the product which has significant potassium, magnesium and fiber. But I know the kick I'm getting is from the theobromine, from which I have withdrawals from when I don't drink it.

Incidentally, my hormone imbalance is no better on the Raw Cacao, than it was on coffee. But I'm happier on this substance. More joyful, less acidic, less irritable. I understand this is due to the fact that theobromine helps the brain produce serotonin in addition to excitatory chemicals.


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## verycool

Yes, it is. In the US & Canada it's most likely to be called cacao powder while in the UK we call it cocoa powder.


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## jae sundblom

Yes and no. It is processed under 120 if they want it done that way of course they will do it properly. They transport to lower temperatures. The video shows the beans are just cracked to remove skin. No need for intense grinding as they are thin enough to then be blown and hand sifted away. But yes it will be ground when turning to liquid when creating the nibs into a paste then pressed removing oil and dried cocao powder


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## jlperz77

I have cocoa powder and cacao powder.  The difference in taste is cocoa is very bitter, as cacao is not.  Cacao is good to use as is, as cocoa you have to add sugar to get rid of the bitterness.  I don't know anything outside of that, but I am now well informed from the other answers and people before me about the process of it.


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## anno

A very informative article and from someone with credibility. Many thanks.


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## veganangel

Interesting threads regarding differences between cocoa powder and cacao nibs - was looking to see which one was more healthy...

Not sure if this is a forum for sharing recipes but just wanted to offer a very simple tasty treat for those using unsweetened cocoa powder but not processed sugar. I may try to make next batch with cacao nibs (well ground first)...

Cocoa 'pudding'

1 cup (packed) medjool dates - without pits (if dates are somewhat dry you can soak in hot water for 30 minutes first)

1 15oz. coconut cream/milk

1/3 cup unsweetened cocoa powder (Ghirardelli's is nice)

Blend all together in blender (or food processor) with slightly increasing speed for about 3-5 minutes. Pour into dish and refrigerate approx. 1 hour to set.

Cures chocolate cravings without processed sugar! Tasty eaten by dipping walnuts too.


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## spirit72

Based on the "heat" used in various stages of processing, there seems to be a small difference in the color, but little difference in the content of cacao or cocoa. The explanation from CocoaLady was excellent.

_However_, there seems to be a large antioxidant difference in "Roasted Cocoa Powder" at 26,000 and "Raw Cacao Powder" at 95,500. At 3 and a half times the antioxidant content, it seems there _is_ some kind of a difference in the outcome of the two processes. These numbers come from a government ORAC chart (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity). Antioxidants react with and remove free radicals (which are the predominant cause of cancer cell propagation).

Question 1: Since heat seems to be the culprit here, does heating cocoa (or cacao) as in a hot cup of heated beverage, or in baking, or other cooking methods remove its antioxidant properties?

Question 2: Would the cocoa liqueur be the best way to obtain antioxidant properties without losing the taste?

Thanks in advance for the excellent coverage of every subject you folks do !!!


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## zeneliann

TO: Pete McCracken

Betsy B is referring to 'milk chocolate'and dark chocolate.

TO: Betsy B

Hershey's is what I call fake food (aka lab food) .  They use Palsgaard4150 (PGPR) in their products.  PGPR is a substitute for coca butter.  They are not even allowed to call it real chocolate on their label. They also use artificial flavoring which accounts for why there is a difference in the taste of one from another (in your case, milk and dark), tweeking chemicals to create varieties. Just keep trying, Betsy B, of ways to do it your own healthy way and best wishes.

Even though, I got a little off the subject, thank you for all the info on cocoa and cocao!  It is a good informational thread and it is what I was looking for before I am buying cocoa/cocao powder today to use in my mousse.  I guess I'll go with either one, depending on price and wholeness (nothing added).  Thanks cocoa lady.  Thanks again to all, ZeneliAnn


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## soandso

I know this is an old thread but I just stumbled upon it and would like to correct some misinformation posted here.  Milk is certainly the ingredient that distinguishes milk chocolate from dark chocolate.  Cocoa butter is never considered to be the "milk," and in fact counts toward the cocoa content (%) listed on the package in either milk or dark chocolate, as it comes from cocoa beans.  Extra cocoa butter is not always added, but may be.

Now, there are certainly companies that use alternatives to cow's milk in their bars (goats milk, rice milk, etc.).  But when you see a typical milk chocolate bar in the store, what distinguishes it from dark chocolate is that it contains milk.

Cheers, all!


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## bugnbean

Wow!  Based on this thread alone, I decided to join cheftalk! lol  I was at Whole Foods and had the exact same question...in one hand, a bag of Ghiradelli 100% cocoa powder.  In the other, Navitas Naturals raw cacao powder.  And, a big difference in price!!

Since no one could answer the question : "What is the difference?", WF gifted me the organic, raw version to "sample" (Thx WF!)

The back of the bag says that this powder is "cold-pressed and milled at low temperatures"

In addition, the beans are from Peru and are sourced directly from farmers, cultivated sustainably and in accordance w fair trade practices.  

Lastly, they are certified organic and non-GMO.

Ghiradelli, OTOH, wow - not transparent at all about source, although they are concerned about slave labor and child labor in the cocoa fields.  I stopped reading blogs and websites after 20 minutes so I really don't have a definitive answer on where or how they source but they are FOR SURE not organic.

SO...based on that, if I had to choose one more expensive brand over the other, I would base it on source and transparency.

Here is just a tiny, tiny excerpt from the NN website on source:

In warm and humid climates of Peru, often growing along riverbanks, the tropical cacao tree bears large football-shaped fruits called pods that are filled with sweet white pulp and beans. 

The Peruvian cacao farmers we partner with are known for their strict organic growing and processing practices. They hand select the beans to ensure the best quality and flavor. Utilizing natural composting and pest control, these farmers carry on the growing traditions that have been successful for over a thousand years. After the raw beans are extracted from the fruit, they are washed with purified water before being partially fermented to remove bitterness. All of our cacao products are tested for micro-contaminants to ensure the cleanest and safest products.

PEACE, MARIA B


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## sarah graham

No, Cacao powder is less processed leaving more nutrients in the product. Heating any food above 107 degrees cooks the digestive enzymes out of it which in turn breaks down the nutrients that the digestive enzymes are holding together. So cacao powder isn't heated above 107 degrees leaving more protein in it.


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## phatch

As far as I can tell, there is no labeling dictum, at least in the US, regarding the spelling of cocao/cocoa reflecting the processing/nutrition. Just marketing choice.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=163.123


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## luc_h

Sarah Graham said:


> No, Cacao powder is less processed leaving more nutrients in the product. Heating any food above 107 degrees cooks the digestive enzymes out of it which in turn breaks down the nutrients that the digestive enzymes are holding together. So cacao powder isn't heated above 107 degrees leaving more protein in it.


please pardon me Sarah to be a stickler on biochemistry semantics but although digestive enzymes do breakdown with heat they in turn do not hold things together but rather break down nutrients.

Foods often become less nutritious by enzyme breakdown (digestive enzymes are actually only found in the digestive track of animals (and certain carnivorous plants) none of which include Cacao or Cocoa).

Digestive enzymes are found in particular in the small intestine of animals (humans being one of them) which is immediately after the stomach because stomach acids, like heat, breakdown all enzymes (including digestive ones). The reason is all enzymes are proteins and all proteins are broken down by digestive acids (assuming the food is well chewed).

Furthermore, cocoa is by default always processed at above 107F since the necessary cocoa bean fermentation step is usually carried out at 50C or 122F+.

http://www.amanochocolate.com/blog/cocoa-fermentation-all-about-it-part1/

At roasting, another necessary step, the beans are heated to between 100°C (212°F) and 150°C (300°F).

http://chocolatealchemy.com/cocoa-bean-roasting/

It is good to note that fermented cocoa beans are often contaminated with salmonella because they are often wash in unsanitary conditions (i.e. non-potable water) and because when the are dried in the sun they are prone to be contaminated with bird droppings. Cocoa bean should be treated like fresh meat i.e. avoid cross contaminating the roasted beans with unroasted.

That said, Phatch is correct, there is no legal definition that defines one spelling over the other.

Cacao sounds more French/Latin (Latin origin of the plant name Theobroma Cacao) than cocoa. It's all marketing.

Luc H.


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## sarah graham

I am a natural doctor and nutritionist....the digestive enzymes are inside the fiber of foods...when heat hits the fiber the digestive enzymes are activated to break down the nutrients faster which in turn loses nutrients before we can eat it. Being sensitive to cocoa powder because it is too process I can actually eat cacao powder with no problems. There are digestive enzymes in fruits and vegetables. They need this so we can digest them, but since our food is not as nutritious as it was several hundred years ago we now need to be taking a digestive enzyme to help process our food fully and get the nutrients out of the food. Diverticulitis is caused by a lack of fiber, this is because all of our food is cooked and processed too much and we don't get this fiber (aka digestive enzymes). We should be eating 85% raw food everyday, this would help a lot of people with what conventional doctors call "IBS", or other digestive disorders. (along with a good probiotic).


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## sarah graham

Also i have a package of cacao powder in my home that says it wasn't processed above 107 degrees making it better for you!


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## luc_h

Thanks for your comment.  All comments are important to a healthy discussion but I have been down this road before about digestive enzymes in food and it's usually not pretty.

Luc H.


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## phatch

Sarah Graham said:


> Also i have a package of cacao powder in my home that says it wasn't processed above 107 degrees making it better for you!


Labelling and packaging have leeway for marketing and also truth, again for the USA., For example. Better and Best. Best on a label, you have to be able to back up with some facts and testing, often of a minor or trivial thing. Better, you don't. Better is subjective for labeling purposes and essentially meaningless.


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## luc_h

phatch said:


> Labelling and packaging have leeway for marketing and also truth, again for the USA.


Correct!

one should never trust what a manufacturer says on their label as being entirely truthful.

I've dealt with label legalities in Canada and USA. A food regulation lawyer once told me: "Because a food label exist in the retail market does not make any of it's claim legal"

The Canadian and American FDA are reactive regulatory bodies not proactive meaning a food manufacturer is left on their own to make their label legal according to the existing regulations. The FDA will intervene if there is a complaint from the consumer/marketplace at which point they will scrutinize the product in question.

I wonder what cocoa manufacturer/brand name claims it's not process above 107F?

Luc H.


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## sarah graham

My cacao powder is grown and processed in India...I buy it from vita cost, they sell products that are truly good for you and benefit your health.


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## sarah graham

Well...I have studied this for many years and have interned with many doctors who agree with what I just said...so maybe you should do more research and find some health courses to take. God Bless!


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## luc_h

Please don't make this personal.

I have commented on wording/semantics and have not questioned your personal beliefs, knowledge, life choices or experience.

Health practitioners, nutritionist, naturopaths and dietitians often enhance the benefit of foods by claiming they contain _"enzymes_" which help us digest and be more healthy but that is false. Medical doctors are not biochemist and may get confused on what an enzyme is.

Even if a food contained enzymes (which some do) they are deactivated (denatured) by our stomach acids. Not many enzymes (if any) can survive a ph of between 1 & 2.

(plant) Foods are compromised of many many many other healthy components like polyphenols, anthocyanins, antioxidants, good fats, vitamins, minerals, etc.. that survive the digestion trip but not enzymes.

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree that cacao is a great healthy superfood for its antioxidant content.

Since you researched this, please name me an enzyme that helps in our digestion so that I can research it myself as you proposed.

I found this cocoa powder in the website you named but it does not say anything about not being processed above 107F

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-organic-cacao-powder-non-gmo

_Cacao (pronounced kuh-COW)-not to be confused with cocoa-is a bean-like seed, collected from the Theobroma cacao tree, a type of evergreen that grows in tropical regions throughout the world. It's naturally rich in antioxidants, vitamins, minerals (especially magnesium and iron), fiber and other good-for-you nutrients you'd expect from one of nature's most exquisite plant foods.Unlike cocoa, powdered cacao is chocolate in the raw. It's not roasted, chemically treated or sugared up for overly sweet taste._

Clearly they are confusing Cocoa as being the hot chocolate mix and cacao as being the pure powder.

Luc H.


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## brianshaw

I thought all cacao/cocoa was roasted as part of processing.

Step 2: http://www.icco.org/about-cocoa/processing-cocoa.html

Like coffee, I wouldn't expect it to be very tasty if it were not roasted.


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## sarah graham

You did make this personal by suggesting that naturopaths like myself lie about food and we don't... if you have nothing good to say you have no right to be on here judging and make statements that you have NO knowledge of. Fruits, vegetables, meats all have certain digestive enzymes to help break these nutrients inside of them. Why else would they begin to go bad? Its the digestive enzymes inside breaking them down. 

amlase, protease, lipase are digestive enzymes along with papain, pepsin, etc. What I was saying was actually take a course in nutrition and you will learn the truth. Naturopaths (at least ones like me and my doctor/mentor) are scientists and we are always learning and studying. This is one thing that has never changed about food; there are digestive enzymes in them and they help break down their nutrients. I'm down with this if you want to be naive as Gods Word says his people will become and not know the truth then that's your problem. I have taken so many courses with books written by M.D.s they say there are digestive enzymes in food and the importance of raw food. I have a Doctor degree and 2 masters. 

Cacao isn't as good as you think it is either, but cocoa is even worse, if I eat cocoa I get a headache because of a magnesium depletion, on the other hand, I can eat Cacao because the magnesium level is higher, almost canceling out the caffeine content...it is high in magnesium because of the caffeine content it has....caffeine depletes our magnesium levels and can make us deficient. I know this from my studies and from personal experience. Coffee is the worse one about depleting us!


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## luc_h

BrianShaw said:


> I thought all cacao/cocoa was roasted as part of processing.
> 
> Step 2: http://www.icco.org/about-cocoa/processing-cocoa.html
> 
> Like coffee, I wouldn't expect it to be very tasty if it were not roasted.


my point exactly.

Luc H.


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## luc_h

A quick web search of _cocoa _and _digestive enzymes _actually yields the following: that cocoa contain digestive enzyme inhibitors.

http://realrawfood.com/cacao-food-gods

http://envirohealthtech.com/cacao.htm

a more scientific version:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113527/

Luc H.


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## luc_h

this also is interesting:

_Cacao beans contain *exceptionally high levels of phytic acid.* *The level is highest in raw unfermented cocoa beans* and a little lower in processed chocolate. Phytates are anti-nutrients that bind to the minerals you consume (particularly magnesium, zinc and copper) and make them unavailable to your body. Phytates also decrease the activity of digestive enzymes like amylase, pepsin and trypsin. Weak digestion is associated with nutrient deficiencies, leaky gut, inflammation of the colon, and autoimmune disorders._

http://www.growyouthful.com/tips/cacao-chocolate-cocoa.php

Luc H.


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## luc_h

Luc_H said:


> Not many enzymes (if any) can survive a ph of between 1 & 2.
> Luc H.


Actually one very well known enzyme can survive in our stomach, our very own, pepsin which degrades proteins hence indiscriminately breaks down enzymes found in food. It is a food safety mechanism to prevent harmful activated proteins during digestion.

(I was just checking my facts)

Luc H.


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## phatch

Sarah, I'm sorry you feel attacked. While I do disagree with some of what you posted, I'd like to see some source materials for the things you've stated. That's how such a discussion works.


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## mgmg

I'm sorry to hear about your husband's illness and was wondering if you all are aware that cancer cells have an affinity for eating all kinds of sugars; it promotes their health and well being.  Have you researched safe sugar alternatives, too?


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## sara1963

.and here is my reasoning and experience of 15 years in the cocoa business, and as a chemical engineer.

Cocoa powder and cacao powder is the same.
What is considered "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit...which is already an almost impossible scenario, since cocoa beans are grown in the Equator, and you may exceed that temperature while drying in the patio under the sun covered with black linens (to heat it up and allow the fermentation of the bean)....and yes, you need to dry them, otherwise they will rotten in a few days, and the shell will be too difficult to peel off.

Back to cocoa powder....
ALL cocoa powder comes from the cocoa bean, which without the shell is called cocoa nib (a.k.a. cacao nib). The first step is grinding of the nib (which again, when you grind something to such small particle size you will create a lot of friction with -that's right - heat!). That will give you the cocoa/cacao paste (a.k.a. cacao mass or liquor), which has about 50 to 56% fat (cocoa butter) in it...and ALL cocoa powders have to go through that stage.

Next stage is to take some of that butter away, which the raw community claims can be done through "cold pressing". For any that don't understand that term, cold pressing is done with oils like olive oil to preserve the oil almost intact by cooling the press plates while applying pressure (pressure generates heat, therefore it needs to be cooled). But here is a reminder, olive oil is liquid in room temperature, cocoa butter is SOLID, and it STARTS melting at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit ... so, you cannot control and cool it to a point where it will be still in a solid phase, because it cannot be pressed and "flow" out.

Last operation is to grind the solids left in the press, again - heat...and there is your cocoa powder or cacao powder... you tell me if you call it "raw", a term not defined by the FDA for cocoa, and that can be used by anyone just to sell the cocoa to a much higher price. Maybe that is why bigger, more serious companies don't have this product, since they do not want to be liable for false advertising...

Regarding "Raw" cocoa nibs or cocoa beans...yes, that is possible, and the only concern is the high bacteriological plate count... but how much you want to train your immune system is up to each individual. And yes, the less manipulated the cocoa, the more polyphenols and healthy chemicals you will obtain from it.

There is also a difference between alkalized or ducthed powders, and the natural ones (which do not contain any potassium carbonate), being the second ones the ones containing more of the healthy properties (antioxidants). But that is totally different than claiming a "raw" cocoa powder.

So, that is my explanation, and again, I respect anyone's opinion on what they want to eat or how they want to consume it. I just disagree with misleading the general public just to make juicy profits.


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## pollybird

thank you cocoa lady I was researching this subject just today I put cocoa powder in a new health food recipe and my daughter started in how it was different she is a genius in real life so can't wait to show this too her. lol


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## foodpump

I think we need to put the whole thing into context:

Cocoa powder is a by-product of cocoa butter

The coco bean contains well over 52% cocoa butter. When chocolate is made, whole beans are nibbed, roasted, and crushed. This results in cocoa mass, also called cocoa liquor. This is very thick and stodgy. It needs to be thinned out, and what Rudolphe Lindt discovered back in the late 1870's was to add more cocoa butter to it. All modern chocolates and couvertures contain extra cocoa butter.

Cocoa butter, by itself has very little flavour, so it makes no sense to extract butter from the best beans. Dutching was invented over 200 years ago by Van Houten as a means to make inferior beans consumable. Thus, beans that were harvested too early, fermented not long enough, or just poor quality in general, are treated with alkalai. This is usually the case for beans destined for cocoa butter. Dont forget, cocoa butter is a valuable commodity and finds its way into many skin creams, suntan lotions and pharmaceutical purposes as well, normally sold to these companies for more than the price of chocolate itself.

All countries--including the U.S--. are required by law to state if chocolate or cocoa products are treated with alkali on the label. There are many European cocao powders that state this, many famous big name ones too, but no European chocolate that I'm aware of- not even the Ikea chocolate is dutched.. Hershey, on the other hand, likes to brag about it, proudly stating in big bold letters on their chocolate packaging that their chocolate is "Dutched".......


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## hanksterr

Great comments from all but frankly still not sure what is best to eat for health.

I found the clip below so may go that way. Is there a discount source to buy what she ate.

The world's oldest human being to have ever lived (that was officially documented) was Jeanne Louise Calment of France. She lived to be 122 and many say that one of her secrets to longevity was her consumption of 2.5 pounds of bitter dark chocolate _a week_. The third "official" oldest person ever to have lived was Sarah Knauss, who also regularly enjoyed the health benefits of chocolate, although not in as large quantities as Jeanne


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## foodpump

What to eat best for health?

Everything in moderation


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## french fries

hanksterr said:


> The world's oldest human being to have ever lived (that was officially documented) was Jeanne Louise Calment of France. She lived to be 122 and many say that one of her secrets to longevity was her consumption of 2.5 pounds of bitter dark chocolate _a week_.


She also smoked cigarettes every day. Maybe _that_ was her secret?


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## iamavapollard

*White chocolate ingredients*

Cocoa butter, 16 ounces
• Milk solids (powder), 14 ounces 
• Soy lecithin, 1 teaspoon
• Sugar, powdered, 14 ounces

We do not add chocolate liquor and chocolate solids which add bitter taste as in dark chocolate.

Dark chocolate ingredients

• 2 cups of cocoa powder
• 1 cup of water
• Cocoa butter to taste 
• Sugar to taste

What's the difference between dark and milk chocolate? Namely, it's a matter of cacao content, color and taste.

Dark chocolate has a percentage of cocoa solids (cocoa liquor) twice as high as that of milk chocolate, while in milk chocolate about 1/3 is milk powder or condensed milk.

Dark chocolate usually has a dark brown color, while milk chocolate is light brown. Most often dark chocolate comes with about 65% cocoa products, while milk chocolate has about 20-25%.


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## foodpump

Uhhhh..... Are you telling me that you "make" chocolate with cocoa powder, water, and "cocoa butter to taste"? And you can temper this, mold it?Are you telling me that you add "1teaspoon" of soy lecethin to "make" white chocolate?Do you know what the function is of soy lecethin? Do you know in what proportions it is added? In all my years of working with chocolate, I 've never heard such tosh....


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## french fries

foodpump said:


> Uhhhh..... Are you telling me that you "make" chocolate with cocoa powder, water, and "cocoa butter to taste"? And you can temper this, mold it? Are you telling me that you add "1teaspoon" of soy lecethin to "make" white chocolate? Do you know what the function is of soy lecethin? Do you know in what proportions it is added? In all my years of working with chocolate, I 've never heard such tosh....


Apparently these "recipes" were just copy-pasted from the following website: http://www.diethealthclub.com/chocolate/chocolate-ingredients.html


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## foodpump

iamavapollard said:


> What's the difference between dark and milk chocolate? Namely, it's a matter of cacao content, color and taste.


Eh....no. The difference is about 35% milk powder.(or over 1/3 the total weight) Other differences are:

A lower melting point than chocolate

A different tempering curve than chocolate

A shorter shelf life.

A milder taste

Not good for lactose intolerant customers

One thing Iearned about chocolate, when I was about 5 yrs old is, that there is a "world standard" for chocolate, and then there is the "American standard" for chocolate. Just like there is day and night, heaven and hell, black and white. The two are not comparable.

With the world standard, chocolate is chocolate. If it contains any--even 1% dairy, it is then referred to as "milk chocolate". Makes a whole lotta sense.

With the American standard, any "dreck" containing a minimum of 35% cocoa content can be called "Semi Sweet" ,"Bittersweet", or "Dark chocolate". Yes, you can throw in milk powder, yes you can throw in paraffin too, don't worry, you're protected by the law...... World standard is 55% cocoa content for "Chocolate", with nothing other than cocoa, sugar, vanilla, and soy lecithin.

American standard for "milk chocolate" is a minimum of15% cocoa content. World standard is 30%

American standard for "Sweet chocolate" is 10% cocoa content. There is no world standard for this dreck, even the stuff at Ikea is better than that

But what is this soy lecithin? And what is its purpose?

Normally, soy lecithin is used as an emulsifier. But you can't emulsify chocolate. To emulsify, you need a fat phase, and you need a water phase. Chocolate (including milk and white) contains no water. Well.... amounts of under 1/2 of 1% (0.05%) are tolerated. Which probably explains why dark chocolate has a shelf life of well over 3 years, no refrigeration required. Chocolate is NOT an emulsification, but rather a partial suspension of solids in fat.

So what does soy lecithin do, if it doesn't emulsify?

In small amounts, it "thins out" the chocolate, enabling easier molding, dipping, and pouring. You can achieve the same effect by adding more cocoa butter, but small quantities of lecithin will do the same.

How much?

Usually 1/2 of 1% or o.o5%. It(lecithin) is usually the last or second last ingredient on the list.

Cocoa butter by itself has no taste, or rather about as much taste as sunflower oil, can't really add this "to taste"

Dark chocolate is not bitter. Angustura bitters are bitter, bitter melon is bitter, but dark chocolate is not bitter. Unsweetened, yes, bitter----no.


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## french fries

foodpump said:


> Cocoa butter by itself has no taste, or rather about as much taste as sunflower oil, can't really add this "to taste"


I have a jar of cocoa butter (100%) I bought for my skin. I tasted it, and to me it has a taste. Subtle, but much better taste than sunflower oil. You can taste the chocolate flavor there. The other day I walked into the living room and told my wife: Wow it smells so good, it smells of chocolate here! And sure enough, she had used cocoa butter on her skin.


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## foodpump

Ah!  You got the unrefined cocoa butter, and yes, it does have some taste.  Most of the cocoa butter used in confectionary is refined and de-odourized.


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## french fries

foodpump said:


> Ah! You got the unrefined cocoa butter, and yes, it does have some taste. Most of the cocoa butter used in confectionary is refined and de-odourized.


Wow, that's too bad! I assume they do that so it doesn't spoil during storage? Does better quality chocolate use unrefined cocoa butter?


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## foodpump

Most unrefined cocoa butters have an "odour" that can be quite unpleasant. Alot of the unrefined c.b is from poorly fermented beans. Since fats absorb odours, the unrefined cocoa butter will transfer its odour to whatever other fats (dairy, other cocoa products) are around it. Thats the reason c.b. is refined, it'll keep for years at room temp without any issues.

Now, taste the stuff. Odour is one thing, but taste it. Its bland. Why do you think white chocolate has no chocolate flavour?


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## french fries

Thanks for all the information @foodpump , much appreciated!


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## donna failes

I was interested in knowing the difference between Hershey's cocoa and the "raw cacao powder".  Well.... I looked on the Hershey's container,   .you know, the very dark brown one..... on the side it states..."100% cacao powder".  Does NOT say raw.. or organic. 

I have always been told that cocoa always has a certain amount of "animal parts" in it.  Why?  because when it is drying there will always be some sort of critters crawling through the beans and these cannot always be taken seen and then taken out.  

Just to let you all know that might not otherwise know.  Thanks.


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## foodpump

What else did the Hershey's label say? "Dark brown" is a dead give awsy for dutched cocoa, also known as alkalized or treated with alkalai cocoa.


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