# Shopping for xmas presents



## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Hey!
Tis the season to be recieving and giving.
This time its recieving for me. 

Im looking for a few knifes. I am a home cook, but i think i want to get a little more serious about it. I have 2 nice sharpening stones a chosera 800 and 3000. I also have a piece of bassalt wood and some stropping compound. I currently have a kai wasabi chef knife and a vic paring knife. I have very soft plastic cutting boards. Not a whole lot of room in the kitchen for a butchers block board, but in the future hopefully at a new house there will be! I am not an expert sharpener yet, i am more of a beginner. I can get the knives about a 5 maybe a 6 out of 10 on a sharpness scale. Until i can get better im fine with sending them off to be sharpened. I usually use the knifes for cutting veggies, boneless meat, and fruit. 

Im looking for a nice set of steak knives probably 4. 
A chef knife 
A utility knife
A pairing knife
A bread knife

I guess i could be convinced to get something else, maybe a slicer..but not sure if i NEED that right now.
All together i have around $600 to spend all together on everything. 
Im not aure if im ready for the amount of work it takes to care for a carbon knife, but i could be convinced. 

Thanks for all the help!


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> The Kai Wasabi are probably the worst blades to start with. Very abrasion resistant due to huge carbides who hinder in getting a fine edge.
> 
> Sharpening is about raising a burr, chasing it, and getting rid of it. Don't try with a Wasabi. It's by far the easiest and most obvious with a simple carbon steel.
> 
> ...


I think there is a sight where i can order a k sabatier. And im not planning on buying a set. Im looking ti get all of these seperately.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Are you in Europe or America?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

rick alan said:


> Are you in Europe or America?


Usa


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

rick alan said:


> Are you in Europe or America?


Usa, but cant you buy sab's from thebestthings?

Im not too worried about getting a k specifically, I have heard about that website. But dont know many speckfkcs about the different types of sabs.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Besides recommending a sab, anything else? Should I just go for A paring, and chef's knife from there? You mentioned in your post that I should get ONE of them. Also, are all of the ones on that website carbon or just the ones that are labeled authentic carbon?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

any brands that you recommend for the stainless 6" , and stainless for citrus, and when you say a carbon for learning do you mean to get an extra carbon to learn starting out? Also are the grinds on those knives that you linked really nice? Or will I have to set the grind myself?

Also what type of stainless steel should I be looking for. There are so many kinds, which are going to last a lifetime etc etc.

Also my budget is around $600

Also I just realized is it okay to sharpen a CS knife on a splashstone like the choseras?

You also mentioned that the Japanese versions have better steel what do you mean by that? And what kind of impact will that have on the knifes??


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> What I described, one carbon chef's, one stainless petty, a peeler, is a minimum. I wouldn't buy an expensive blade if your only learning sharpening. Better wait a bit and explore your preferences. K-Sabatier come with great grinding and poor final sharpening. Very common. Good for your sharpening.
> Or have a Misono Swedish Carbon gyuto and ask Korin for an initial stone sharpening. So you get an example of a correctly sharpened edge which will make maintaining much easier.
> A petty -- the 6" blade -- gets a lot of abuse, has a lot of board contact with a small contact area, will often been sharpened. No eternal life here.
> Don't pay too much, it will replaced within a few years.
> You may sharpen carbon steel with any stone. The Choseras are anyway amongst the best synthetic stones, and an excellent choice.


What do you mean by great grinding and poor final sharpening. Do you mean they are thin and in the right shape but the actual edge isn't sharp?
I also have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of people talk about how misono's reptutation is bad fit and finish. Will that impact me at all as a beginner sharpener?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> K-Sabs have a great grinding of the faces. The final edge is generally poor, just as with most factory edges. They all need a bit of work -- or love, if you prefer.
> 
> Never found anyone complaining about Misono's Fit&Finish. It is an example of a very high, consistent level through all their series and an excellent quality control. Are you sure you aren't referring to Masamoto, well-known for its inconsistency??


I probably am, sorry!! 
So here is what I'm considering atm.
Chef--9in sab from the website you linked. OR the 270mm misono from korin with an intial sharpening. 
Petty-- I'm thinking the misono 440 150mm
Carbon Peeler--Thinking one of the Sab's because I haven't really found anything else besides that. What is the difference between the types of peelers/ paring knifes? Should I try both the straight and curved ones?
Citrus knife-- I have no clue for this one, but somehow I would like the handle to be different so that people know to use this one for citrus items.

Any recommendations for a santoku ? My wife enjoys using them, She would most definitely prefer a stainless steel. I would maintain it.

Also, I understand that this is all intro/beginning level. And will work for however long I choose. But what would you recommend for being like a end game knife? Also what would you recommend getting for being a more rugged/workhorse knife if I were to cook anything with bones and things along those lines, or cutting pineapple etc.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

If the Misono is a bit middle of the road, what is a knife you could recommend that is solidly middle of the road, and possibly middle high as well to compare. What is the difference between 440 and ux-10, besides the price... Not sure if I can find the Robert Herder stuff here. Anything comparable for the US? Also, do you have any recommendations for steak knives? Or bread knives?

I found the Old Hickory line, they sell some stuff on amazon and various other websites. Do you think they are good knifes? Their paring knife is about $10. And Slicer is about $10 as well. Thoughts?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Robert Herder has a store on Amazon. for steak knives, find a set that matches your tableware or theme. you can find nice sets of old stuff on eBay. go serrated, the blades are going to be used on china or glassware which will destroy a regular edge.
Old Hickory are basic carbon steel blades made in New York. a bit softer than Japanese knives, they can be quickly made razor sharp. I have several in the kitchen that were passed down from wife's grandmother. I use them on occasion to break down large cuts of meat, like a 10 pound pork butt. I have used their cleaver as my main kitchen knife.
Case makes decent kitchen knives, same outfit that makes the pocket knives.
for a bread knife, get a basic serrated on that has the right amount of flex for you.
on all knives for your kitchen, find something that fits your hand well and has balance that works for you. 
check here http://stores.ebay.com/ralph1396?_rdc=1


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Going back, the problem with the sab is the full bolster, it's a pain as it had to be ground back to facilitate sharpening. Crazy that they still do that, this was originally just to facilitate 1800's die forging practices, then became a fashion, unfortunately.

Old Hickory's are made of fine steel, and I believe are significantly harder than the Misono carbon. But the edges are very thick, good for a butcher knife, not so great for a chefs, and will require more effort to sharpen.

Steel on the UX10 will have better edge retention, but be a little more effort to sharpen. The Misono carbon will be real easy to sharpen and touch up, certainly amongst the easiest to get real sharp.

There are quite a few knives in your price range, check out recent posts.

Ebay has a huge variety of inexpensive steak knives, just pick out something you like. There are some real fancy looking ones sporting big names and selling real cheap, just be aware these are going to be Chinese knockoffs.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

What would you say to getting both the sab and the misono? I get that the carbon is much easier to sharpen and touch up than the UX10, but what is the difference between the ux10, the Moly, and the 440 Moly? Also do you have any cutting board recommendations? Are specific woods better than others? End grain vs side grain? Or the Hi-Soft one that you mentioned?

Also any recommendations for a petty that has a more traditional Japanese WA, That means with the more octagonal handle of wood correct? Just want to get a feel for one of those if possible, so I know for the future if I like them or not. So it would be 150mm, stainless steel based off what we already discussed.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

For the first, why both? Maybe get the Masahiro carbon for lower cost, I'm surprised I didn't notice Benuser recommend it. Degrees of edge retention mainly on the stainless, highest, lowest, to middle as you present them.

Cutting board, I think it's a matter of kitchen decor to a good extent. The high soft is as good or maybe even better than premium end-grain (better than edge grain, but much more expensive for a good board that won't crack) type of board, easy to clean and maintain, but rather homely in comparison.

Avoid teak, acasia and especially bamboo as these have very abrasive properties. Stick to single-wood boards mostly, unless buying from top-makers like BoardSmith and Boos who match the woods properly. Oak, walnut, rock maple and cherry are the preferred woods, along with the Japanese Ho/Magnolia. If going edge-grain go for the softer woods, cherry and Ho, though the harder woods still make very good cutting surfaces compared to the hard plastics. And just about anybody can make a decent edge-grain board.

Neither myself, nor most home cooks I think, do all that much heavy chopping, so you really have to weigh the benefits of going end-grain, here it's the classy look in large part. That's enough that I would have gone for it, but it did not mesh with my SO's idea of decor, having a big block of wood sitting on her marble counter tops, just where most any home cook would want it. So I have a black plastic board that is thin and actually rather attractive, available at many department stores around here, and probably anywhere else in the States, I even saw the exact same pebble finish board in Europe, and on top of this I place a smaller wood board, edge grain cause it was free and like the plastic board already there when subject was being debated, being the original set up I had been using before upgrading knives, and both store very neatly atop the microwave, and maintenance is of course a breeze. There is a small high-soft board would fit nicely here, I was thinking of getting one to practice insane-chopping technique on.





BTW, just about any Japanese knife can do this with a decent sharpening, and you'll be able to get a carbon that slick before long.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

I'm honestly not sure, just to try different kinds i suppose. My issue isn't cost. I'm not worried about that at all. I think my reasoning behind it is that I want 1 more entry~medium knife (steel wise) and one more Medium~high end (steel wise). The beginner one to hone my technique for a while and then the high end one for a few months from know when I have an idea of what I am doing. Because I know, by that time I will be thinking of upgrading but not wanting to spend the money, where as right now there are people who love me who want to spend the money. Does that make sense? 

Any advice on a wa handled knife to try out for the petty?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Getting both a K-Sabatier and a Misono Swedish would make sense. I would suggest the 10"Sab and the 240mm Misono, as Japanese makers tend to make their 270 a bit heavy. It's all relative but the 240 gives a better idea of a Japanese chef's.
> 
> The Misono 440 is harder than the Moly and has the better edge retention. Both are finely grained and sharpen easily.
> The UX-10 is very different. Coarsely grained, providing an aggressive edge. This 'bite' is what the general public percieves as sharpness, and it remains even after the first dulling. Sharpening is not that easy, it needs some practice to carefully abrade the burr.


Do either the 440 or the moly come in the wa handle?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Or is therw a different carbon steel, besides the misono that I can try out with a wa style handle? Or would i be much better off going eith the misono and trying the wa with a petty?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> N
> No, Misono make only Western knifes.
> 
> o


Any recomendations for a wa petty then? I was going to go with the 440, but really want to try out a wa handle to see if its something I like. Better to try now then buy an expensive knife in the future and dislike it...


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Also wouod it be a good idea to get a honing rod? If so, is the cntk black ceramic one the best available?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Would it be worth getting something finer than the 3000 chosera? Or is it okay to use the green compound i got and the bassalt wood?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

The only other stone that i have is an 800 Chosera.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Excellent stone. Hard, fast, offering a great tactile feedback. Very versatile: depending on pressure, mud, water you may get a variety of results.
> Have an Atoma 140 for lapping, from day 1.


So i should also get an Atoma 140? And what is lapping. Glad to hear I made a good purchase with the two Choseras. Any advice about getting something to place them on for a sink or something similar?

Is there a better set of stones for mastering the craft that I should look into? If the choseras are going to give me mixed results based on all of those things, it sounds like they are not good for beginning stones. I hear a lot about Arkansas stones, thoughts on those/what are they?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

Arkansas stones are natural quarried stone. for a beginner stone, an 8" Norton Coarse Crystolon/Fine India is a good start. When you have mastered the India to where you can push cut newsprint, then look to finer stones. find an Old Hickory or Forgecraft high carbon to practice on. a coarse crystolon and a Atoma 140 are about the same grit. a fine india is about the same as a 400 grit Japanese water stone. 
there are 5 different ways grit is measured, JIS the Japanese system which most water stones follow, CAMI which is American and is also used for sandpaper, FEPA which is European and is shown as P### on some sandpaper. finally there is MICRON which is the actual size of the abrasive grains. as an example of how confusing this can get, CAMI 180 and FEPA P180 are the same grit, but FEPA P1200, JIS 800 and CAMI 600 are the same grit.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

scott livesey said:


> Arkansas stones are natural quarried stone. for a beginner stone, an 8" Norton Coarse Crystolon/Fine India is a good start. When you have mastered the India to where you can push cut newsprint, then look to finer stones. find an Old Hickory or Forgecraft high carbon to practice on. a coarse crystolon and a Atoma 140 are about the same grit. a fine india is about the same as a 400 grit Japanese water stone.
> there are 5 different ways grit is measured, JIS the Japanese system which most water stones follow, CAMI which is American and is also used for sandpaper, FEPA which is European and is shown as P### on some sandpaper. finally there is MICRON which is the actual size of the abrasive grains. as an example of how confusing this can get, CAMI 180 and FEPA P180 are the same grit, but FEPA P1200, JIS 800 and CAMI 600 are the same grit.


Yeah that is super confusing. So with sharpening, i struggle to grt the kai wasabi to push cut sharp for the life of me, it feels like i would have to just spend forever sharpening it to get it sharp enough. But that being said i can get a vic paring knife and a zyliss paring knife push cut sharp. They can both cut through a rolled up news paper like 15 layers thick. Just takes mire force an just the blades heft. Probably a few pounds if force to get through that.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

I got that from using the chosera 800, thrn the 3000, then stropping on the basslat board really softly a few times. 
So it eoulf be a good idea to get the atoma 140, what would i use it for grinding new angles on the knife and such?? Would i need to get something in between the chosera 800 and the atoma 140?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You won't be needing the Atoma 140 to thin for quite a long, long while. Not unless you buy something like an old hickory and want to bring it to Japanese standards.

Whe using the 140 you have to be very careful not to hit the edge, because you'll put in deep scratches that will be difficult to get out, and generally make a mess of your edge. You'll need 300-400 stone to remove the scratches.

Your 800 and 4K are all the sharpening stones you need for the moment. that green paste I believe is chrome-oxide (CrO2) meant for very very fine polishing, it won't do anything for a 3K finish, and has no place for general kitchen knife use. Get a Kitayama 8k if you want to fool around with higher finish. You want finer than that then add 3 and 1 micron diamond slurry for your strop. 1 micron diamond is really the practical limit here. If you manage to do it right with the higher grits be especially careful to keep fingers away from the edge, it will cut to the bone before you now what happened.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

rick alan said:


> You won't be needing the Atoma 140 to thin for quite a long, long while. Not unless you buy something like an old hickory and want to bring it to Japanese standards.
> 
> Whe using the 140 you have to be very careful not to hit the edge, because you'll put in deep scratches that will be difficult to get out, and generally make a mess of your edge. You'll need 300-400 stone to remove the scratches.
> 
> Your 800 and 4K are all the sharpening stones you need for the moment. that green paste I believe is chrome-oxide (CrO2) meant for very very fine polishing, it won't do anything for a 3K finish, and has no place for general kitchen knife use. Get a Kitayama 8k if you want to fool around with higher finish. You want finer than that then add 3 and 1 micron diamond slurry for your strop. 1 micron diamond is really the practical limit here. If you manage to do it right with the higher grits be especially careful to keep fingers away from the edge, it will cut to the bone before you now what happened.


Awesome, so wait on the 140. I kinda wanna do a finer polish on the knives. So get the Kitayama, sandpaper off the green stuff that is on there and get the diamond paste from cktg. Put one on each side of the knife to get as sharp as i can. So when i do touch-ups every week or so i should touch it up on the strop right?

Is the Kitayama a splash n go like the Chosera's? Or would I need to soak it.

Any advice on cleaning off the green chrome oxide??

Ohhh Okay, so the atoma for leveling off the stone. Is that what you meant by lapping? I have just been using the little thing that came in the boxes of the choseras. Yeah I think it would be a wise decision to hold off on thinning and other advanced techniques for the moment. Maybe in a year or so haha.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Ah ok, so anything beyond the 3k chosera is not worth the time and effort? Then is it worth it to strop them? I guess that is how i deburr


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Pretty much what Benuser said about high-polish. I use high polish for all knives, just because I like to, but the razor edge will only hold if there is no board contact, like slicing where only the tip touches the board, or cutting in-hand, which is really a learning curve, with lots of bandaids and/or tape involved. Stropping with 3 micron diamond will restore an edge, also great for putting on you micro-bevel. Diamond scratches deep, so even 3 micron will have some little bit of tooth to it.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

So for stropping I don't need two levels of diamond micron, just the 3micron paste?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

So should i get a stone or something to hrlp deburr the knife?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Okay To recap, hopefully for the last time hahah.
TO BUY:
Sharpening- Atoma 140 for flattening out my current stones. & 3 micron slurry.
Chef Knife- 10 inch K SAB, 240mm Misuno
Petty- I think I'm gonna go with one from JCI probably a Gesshin Uraku 150mm Stainless wa
Paring- 4in Old Hickory.
Cutting board- Hi-soft
Steak Knife- Something from ebay or something like that

Already Have:
800 Chosera, 3000 Chosera, & Basalt wood block
Vic Paring knife
Kai Wasabi (by the way what should I do to try to sharpen this thing? Like I said I can get the vic to really sharp but this one just isn't even close)


Anything else that I am forgetting? And also anything that would be nice, but not needed at the moment for the future? Should I get any oil of some kind for the carbon knives if I am not going on vacation or something like that?

Sorry I Know it has been a lot of talking back and forth the last few days.


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

theophany said:


> Okay To recap, hopefully for the last time hahah.
> 
> Kai Wasabi (by the way what should I do to try to sharpen this thing? Like I said I can get the vic to really sharp but this one just isn't even close)


spend the $30 and get a norton coarse/fine stone. get a sharpie to mark the edge. start over with the sharpening.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

scott livesey said:


> spend the $30 and get a norton coarse/fine stone. get a sharpie to mark the edge. start over with the sharpening.


What does the norton course/fine do for me that the two stones i have don't. How are the different and what benefit do they givr me for the future?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Does seem reasonable to me. Give away the Wasabi, to your worst ennemy.


Well... ill probably be back in a few months when im desperate for the next thing and i try to dive deeper in. Haha. What is the technique for deburring on the 3000? 
Also how long shoukd a session with one knife take me? Just so i have an idea of what to aim for over the next few months.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Deburring occurs by longitudinal strokes -- along the edge, with a very small leading of trailing motion. See Jon Broida's video.


I saw the video, i cant tell if he has the knufe flat or is keeping the same angle. And i also can not tell if he is pulling 90° left to right. Or like 85°left to right. So it is SLIGHTLY edge trailing? Also would you deburr and then make your micro bevel? Or make the micro bevel at a higher degree and then deburr at that angle??


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Benuser made a typo, you pull the knife along the edge, while doing a slight edge-leading movement also. Hold the same angle that you sharpended at, or slightly steeper if you feel unsure.

It's a very good idea to sharpen at a rather low angle, like 10deg. When you finish sharpening at the high grit you then just strop in a microbevel. It's practically foolproof this way. So get a decent edge at about 10deg, then strop in a microbevel at about 20. I even go higher than that as I find no degradation in cutting ability if you gauge that after taking after a few wacks on the board, and you'll maintain a decent sharp much longer.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

rick alan said:


> Benuser made a typo, you pull the knife along the edge, while doing a slight edge-leading movement also. Hold the same angle that you sharpended at, or slightly steeper if you feel unsure.
> 
> It's a very good idea to sharpen at a rather low angle, like 10deg. When you finish sharpening at the high grit you then just strop in a microbevel. It's practically foolproof this way. So get a decent edge at about 10deg, then strop in a microbevel at about 20. I even go higher than that as I find no degradation in cutting ability if you gauge that after taking after a few wacks on the board, and you'll maintain a decent sharp much longer.


So making the microbevel is a way you can deburr the knife? Its like turning the left over burr into an extra bevel to provide strength to the edge of the knife. 
So it would go like this: sharpen as usual, then when done move to the strop and make a micro bevel of 20-30° . Adter that do i move back to the stone to deburr the rest, or am i good?

When doing the edge leading stroke does it matter if you go heel to tip or tip to heel?


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes deburr before microbevel, I do both sides. I would think edge trailing stroke for deburring would tend to flip the burr up and not work so well, but I just never did it that way.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Very slightly edge leading or trailing. If you stay strictly stationary you may develop a wire edge.
> Deburring or not before micro-bevelling? I guess you speak about a single-sided one. It won't really matter. I would deburr the left side before carving a micro-bevel on the right one, and than deburr the left side again.


So when doing the single sided one. Deburr the left side using slight edge trailing/leading motion across the board using the same angle that i sharpend the knife as. Then go to the strop on the right side and get a micro bevel at a much higher angle. Then go back to the stone and at the much higher angle preform another slight edge trailing/leading stroke to get the super fine burr off of the micro bevel?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

O


rick alan said:


> Yes deburr before microbevel, I do both sides. I would think edge trailing stroke for deburring would tend to flip the burr up and not work so well, but I just never did it that way.


K this makes sense!


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

So my first knife arrived, the old hickory paring knife! Its pretty dull so i am going to sharoen it up, any advice on what degree of an angle this, and the other knives im getting can take? Im used to outting a 12-20° angle on the knives. And also, any advice for developing a patina over time? And is there any type of food that i should stay away from when using the knives the first few times??


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

would it be a good idea to get something a little more coarse than the 800 so that I can grind stuff down a little easier?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Just what I do with a new carbon blade: degrease with alcohol, and dab with hot vinegar to start patina formation. Then, take it to the lowest angle you're comfortable with and sharpen until you've reached the very edge. I go as far as to raise a burr, to make sure the factory has gone.
> Normally I put a very conservative edge on new knives. Think 30 degrees inclusive, in some 13/17 R/L proportion. Or. with soft carbons, put a micro-bevel on it, not with your finest stone, but with a coarser one.


How long should I let the vinegar sit on the blade, could you link me to a guide of some sort for starting the patina? Also I have been reading and a lot of people talk about how with using a carbon blade for the first few weeks it leaves a strange metalic taste on the food. Any way for me to not have that happen to my foods?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

It sounds like it would probably be a good idea to get one of the coarser stones, which would be better to have? OR rather, which would be more versatile? I don't want to get one that I would only pull out 1 time a year or something like that, I would rather spend the money on something that I will use more often than that. 

Also, I thought that I was supposed to sharpen each side of a double blade 50/50 but the more I am reading the more people are talking about doing like 75/25 or 60/40 etc. Also if I am right handed which side should be 70 and which side should be 40? 
This would mean I would sharpen on one side at like a 10 degree angle and then a 7 degree on the other side if I was doing 70/30. Correct? 

How thin should I try to get the old hickory to? Should I thin the whole thing or should I just sharpen the knife on a consistent angle?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

i suggested a norton coarse crystolon/fine India as stones coarser than you have. the coarse for chip repair/thinning and the fine for coarse sharpening. as far as which angle to sharpen at, it all varies with the knife. most American and European double bevel knives are 50/50. Japanese knives depend on the maker, I would hope that information was included with the knife.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

scott livesey said:


> i suggested a norton coarse crystolon/fine India as stones coarser than you have. the coarse for chip repair/thinning and the fine for coarse sharpening. as far as which angle to sharpen at, it all varies with the knife. most American and European double bevel knives are 50/50. Japanese knives depend on the maker, I would hope that information was included with the knife.


I was just curious what the benefit was to sharpening at different angles, is one better than others at certain tasks etc. With the nortons, are they water stones or not? And what is good about them??


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

theophany said:


> I was just curious what the benefit was to sharpening at different angles, is one better than others at certain tasks etc. With the nortons, are they water stones or not? And what is good about them??


on some Japanese knives the edges are ground to different angles, one may be 10 degrees the other 15 degrees. some say they cut better that way, I don't know. more info here although he does not go into why http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL
the norton crystolon/india stones are oil stones although they may be used with oil, water, windex, or dry. they are hard, inexpensive, don't wear much, produce a decent edge. like choosing between Bud or Miller, ford or chevy


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

This might be a dumb question but is the chosera 400 or shapton 220 better/worse than the norton crystolon/india? What are the advantages and dusadvantages if each??


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

I think we are at a IPA vs. lager moment. I use norton stones to shape and refine the apex, then finish with Smith's and Jewelstik diamond hones. I have never used chosera or shapton stones.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The SG 220 is well regarded, and the chosera 400 of course. Another fast cutter in 220 is something called a "pink brick", it's a 220 and a number of companies sell some version of it ranging from soft to hard, and for you it really doesn't matter what version you get.

For a cheap course stone that works well the King 300, for $25 it's hard to beat it, I've certainly liked it better than course crystolon stones I've used. 220's are fast but tend to scratch deep, in terms of overall effort it's just a wash probably, but with the 300 there is no problem jumping from there to the chosera 800. And it's cheap.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

benuser said:


> Expect all knives to be more or less asymmetric, and the European are no exception. A good old Sab is flatter on the left face and more convex on the right. Good for food release and thin slices. When the Japanese started to produce Western knifes they took the Sab as an example. They changed it a bit: by offsetting the edge, to the left, as left-handers were ignored in their culture.
> If you put a symmetric edge on such a blade it will steer clockwise like crazy, because the left side will offer less friction than the right one. So, we reduce the friction on the right side, by thinning and convexing the bevel. And increase the friction on the left side by increasing the sharpening angle.
> Please be aware that factory edges don't mean much. Traditionally, Japanese makers delivered their blades unsharpened. The end user would put his own edge on it, or have it done by the retailer.
> Today Japanese makers put some edge on it to help Western clients. Yes it is an edge. Often very fragile, only meant to ease further sharpening. I have seen a honesuki with a symmetric 8 degrees per side edge.
> ...


So based on this I should have a more acute angle on the left side than the right. But what you recommend doing is Starting on one side and doing a really fine angle, then slowly increase until it looks like I am sharpening the edge of the knife. When I am sharpening that edge, get a burr, then do the same thing on the other side. This would work with the already thinned blades, what should I do with the old hickory? When I thin it what angle should I take? And even with paring knives and pettys I should do a slightly more acute angle on the left side of the blade compared to the right? Wow the king sounds nice based on what you just said. What do you mean when you say "steer" or "wedge" ? And how would I know if the edge retention is good or not? And how do I know if I should change the angle or if I should thin the blade?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

When you say above the edge where are you talking about? Do you mean the thickness of the blade?


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Yes I have read them, I'm starting to understand more. I was just a little confused but I am starting to understand. And it is making sense why you recommended those specifications for thinning out the blade. It should help to naturally round it off the slighteset amount right? So with the post that you linked to, how do you get that slight difference in angles and edge lengths ? Basically he says to round whichever side is your dominant cutting hand's edge. And to counter the rounded side, you need to make the edge of thaat side at a slightly lower degree wise than the non dominant hand. The nondominant hand's edge is slightly longer and also slightly higher in degrees. So if I'm right handed the left side overall is straighter, along the entier length of the left side of the blade, it is thinned more. And the edge of the blade is lets say 1.5x as long and lets say a 10 degree angle. Where as the right side of the blade isn't thinned quite as much and is a little bit rounded. And because of that it is 1x length and at an 8 degree angle. correct ?


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

At that budget I'd buy a Masamoto KS 270mm wa-gyuto and do everything else on the cheap. First time you gently polish at 3k you'll thank me. As to asymmetry, you don't need to be complicated about it: grind the front face and only deburr the back, the latter as flat as you can. After 4-5 sessions the knife will be perfectly structured, in my experience. But you've got to start with something really excellent to make this work.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

Chris brings up a good point, would I be better off in the long run. Buying a high end knife now, one of the holy grail type knives. And then spending a small amount on the other things for now?


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## scott livesey (Jan 25, 2013)

what knife is most used in your kitchen? identify that then spend big $$ for the best you can find. folks have been recommending knives as long as 11 to 12 inches. Is that what you are comfortable using? there is no holy grail knife, only the one that works best for you, which may or may not work for me.


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## theophany (Jul 5, 2017)

A chef knife somewhere between 8-10 inch of a blade would be the best for me. It is what I use the most. I just wanna know if it would be smart to heavily invest in an end game type knife now instead of buying something middle of the road which, when I get an end game type knife I won't use very much.


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