# Need some opinions on my next chef knife



## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Hey guys.  Stumbled upon this site just the other day while looking for reviews on chef knives and found this site.  The info has been very informational and I especially enjoy BDL's posts.

I currently own a Henckels 240mm chef knife, the kind with the yellow handle, and I would like to upgrade.  I've been in the service industry for about two and a half years so I don't know much about knives.

Budget: No more than 400$ CDN, preferably around the 200-300 range.
Style: Japanese Gyutou(stainless steel)

I live in Canada and I would like to order from Paul's Finest online because it saves me a lot of hassle and time as opposed to ordering from a US site.

I've got it down to 2 knives:

The Misono UX-10 240mm Gyutou, pricing in at $275CDN
The Grand Cheff 240mm Gyutou, pricing in at $175CDN

Which is better?  I would think that because the Misono knife is more expensive, it would be the better knife but I know that is not always the case. 

I've also been reading the posts in this forum and I'm interested in the Masamoto and hattori brands. 

A website(preferably North American) with either of these brands would be much appreciated.  All recommendations and opinions are welcome.

Thank you,
Chris


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Also, I have a fine ceramic steel for maintenance and I know a sushi chef who will do the stone sharpening for me so no issues there.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mr. Chris,_*

*_Thanks for the kind words. Here's a little bit about the two knives you asked about._*

UX-10:*_

The UX-10 is extremely agile, but it's a little on the narrow side. Extremely agile, rewards good skills -- but not a lot of knuckle clearance. Some sort of Swedish steel, probably Sandvik 19C27. Holds an edge very, very well -- and that's a good thing since you're not going to be doing your own sharpening. Shouldn't need much steeling. GREAT handle. The blade is a bit on the flexible and whippy (althougn not as bad as some).

There's a little controversy over whether the UX-10 is difficult to sharpen or not. In my limited experience it isn't; but people I trust and respect as very good sharpeners have told me the knife is difficult to thin and re-profile. 
_*
Grand Cheff:*_

Wider profile than the UX-10 but not especially wide. Very good handle -- but not as good as the Misono. It's not quite as agile as the UX-10 but has more knuckle clearance and is easier to keep square to the board. If it doesn't reward good skills quite as much, it doesn't punish as much either.

The blade alloy is also Swedish, AEB-L made by Uddeholm which is a clone of Sandvik's 13C26. It's what's called a "strip steel" which means it was developed for razor blades. As you'd expect it gets very sharp. To frost the cake, it also gets very sharp very easily; and can be thinned just as easily -- not that it needs much work.

On the other hand, it's only hardened to HRC 58 and does get out of true pretty easily. On the other hand it steels up very well.

A lot of blade for the bucks.

*Bottom Line: *

These two knives are in the same performance class -- but within that class at opposite ends of the price spectrum. Unless the UX-10 really suits your style, the Grand Cheff is a much better buy.

_*Other Thoughts:*_

Paul's is excellent. One mark of that is that he's the only North American retailer with a decent selection of Grand Cheff. (Seito Trading in New York will order from the catalog, but they don't really have any stock.) I'm not sure about the ins and outs of buying a knife from a US e-tailer and having it shipped to Canada. I understand that Canadian customs can be expensive. It may be easier having your knife shipped directly from Japan.

If you're interested in brief analyses of other knives in this class of western handled, Japanese manufactured, mass-produced, stainless (enough of a mouthful for you?) take a look at this. It may be of help.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## bleugirl (Jan 9, 2010)

_Hello, MrChris,

My I proffer my humble opinion? CBL's advice is so accurate, from my limited experience. I have purchased a Misono UX. I love it and his profile of the knife, from what I have found, is straight on accurate.

I found it to be very agile with a fantastic handle, very, very comfortable and did hold an edge very well, as I have used it almost every day for three months chopping, cutting and slicing heavy, dense and fibrous vegetables and the like.

I am only an aspiring cook at home. Truth be told, but I have found what CBL has said to be very, very true.

It has performed as stated by CBL. I love the knife and sharpening I cannot comment on. I, alas, am not skilled in such an art, but I was aware that I will have to send it out for the proper sharpening and am content with that.

I hope this helped.

Good luck,

bleugirl_


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

CBL is me, I think.

BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, new question. I'm undecided on these Gyutou:

Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff
Hiromoto G3
Masamoto VG

Also, has anyone ordered online from www.japanesechefknives.com ?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The three knives you mentioned, and the three more I'm adding are all wonderful. If you really want one more than another for even the silliest reason it's still a choice you'll be happy with for a long time.

Enough with the forest, enough even with the trees. Let's talk about the leaves. _

Masamoto VG:_

Like nearly all Masamotos the VG is an all around great knife. Great handle (ergonomically), great geometry, great edge characteristics -- you name it. The outstanding characteristic though isn't any particular characteristic but the overall _rightness_ of the knife. Masamotos are a lot like good Sabatier carbons in that way.

Fairly tall, but excellent agility nevertheless. Easy to keep square to the board.

Perhaps a bit "blah" looking.

VG does not stand for VG-10. The knife is probably VG-5, if that makes a difference to you.

Over the last couple of years, Masamoto has had some issues with poorly fitted handles on their western handled knives. If you decide on a Masa you want to communicate with the dealer and tell him politely you expect him to select a knife with a properly fitting handle. If you put a gun to my head and asked about any other criticism of the Masamoto VG, it's a little on the whippy side.

If I were buying a stainless, western-handled knife for myself, the VG would be one of two I'd consider. The other would be an Ikkanshi Tadatsuna. 
_
Grand Cheff:_

I'm not sure that I have much to add to what I've already said. It's a very good, well finished Japanese chef's knife with good geometry and a comfortable handle. A lot of bang for the buck. The outstanding characteristic is how easy it is to sharpen to extreme sharpness. But since you're not going to be doing your own sharpening that's not such a huge advantage. Holds the edge fairly well.

_Hiromoto G3:_

Hiromoto's claim to fame with their western-handled Tenmi Jyuraku series (G3 and AS) is the high quality of the blade alloy and thin geometry at a relatively reasonable price. The handles are narrow; and if you use a tight grip that could be a problem.

Hiros aren't exactly polarizing, people tend to either love them or like them. I'm a liker. In terms of geometry and overall ergonomics they're good but nothing special.

I actually bought 4 Hiro AS a couple of years ago. We tried them for a few months but moved them on because we didn't like them as much as my old carbon Sabatiers.

_Ikkanshi Tadatsuna:_

You didn't ask, but you should know. Pricey, or at least comparatively pricey-ish. The same G3 alloy, but a much better kinife than the Hiromoto G3 -- which is a darn good knife in its own right.

Very good handle. Very thin blade for a western handled knife, but not particularly flexible compared to the other knives mentioned except for the MAC. Best edge taking and holding characteristics of any knife in the class.

Fantastic F&F. Everything fit, and the spine and back were beautifully arched.

Another great all arounder, without quite matching the feel of the Masamoto. The overall equal of the MAC. What the MAC gains with its handle the Tadatsuna matches with its slightly better overall geometry, edge characteristics, F&F and good looks.

Duckfat, a CT poster with a lot of knife knowledge, just bought a bunch of them and he's very enthusiastic -- more like rapturous. Tadatsuna wa-gyuto are a dime a dozen around here, but yo-gyuto (western handled) are much harder to find. It took me a lot of time to find someone who'd let me use and sharpen his western handled Tadatsuna, but I finally did it. As you can gather I was impressed.

I would definitely consider this knife for myself in carbon._

MAC Pro:_

You didn't ask about this either, but it should be on your short list. Best handle in the business, better than the UX-10 and the Masamoto. I've never heard from anyone who didn't love it.

All around good knife, better than the Hiromotos IMO. Perhaps not the same sense of perfection as a Masamoto but a good deal stiffer. In fact, very stiff by Japanese made knife standards. Also, very well finished as Japanese knives go. People used to western knives have no trouble adjusting. "Best of both worlds," is a fair characterization.

Excellent support from MAC USA. If there's any problem MAC USA will correct it. At least two dozen people have bought MAC Pros based on my recommendation. Two of them had problems (bad handles), neither bought directly from MAC USA, yet MAC fixed it without question and immediately if not sooner.

I don't care for the silk screened graphics. If you don't either, don't let them bother you. They'll come off in a few months with regular use and washing.

The MAC Pro is an excellent knife with its stock, 50/50 symmetry, 15* flat bevel. But for whatever reason really comes into its own with a 50/50, 15/10 double bevel. At 15/10 it's as good as anything with a western handle.

_Togiharu G-1:_

Another fine exemplar of the class.

Very slightly less good (at least overall) version of the Masamoto VG. The geometry is extremely similar. The handle is POM (which I actually prefer to wood), but is a little narrower and shorger than the Masa's. I can't put my finger on why I don't think the Tog handles as well as the Masa. Less money though.

The brand name belongs to an international dealer Korin. If the knife is sold under a different name by someone else, I'm not aware of it.

The G-1 actually seems to be VG-10; at least according to Korin. But as a practical matter, I don't think VG-10 is any better than VG-5.

It's knife hobbyist dogma that the G-1 and VG are made by the same OEM manufacturer. That doesn't make it true, just sayin' is all.

_JCK:_

Excellent e-tailer. The owners, Koki (speaks, reads and writes English) and Jemmi (his Dad) are fantastic.

I've bought about half a dozen knives from JCK over the past four or five years and never had any problems. On the contrary in fact. Things came quicker and went through customs more easily than I would have thought possible.

I'm aware of a couple of issues with poorly made Mizuno Tarenjo knives that were not resolved particularly well -- which involved the same very complicated fact pattern Since you're not buying a Mizuno, it's not sufficiently germane to go into it

Suffice it to say that JCK is great but not perfect, and any purchase you make is almost certain to fall on the great side of the ledger.

Koki gives great service. If you do decide to buy a Masamoto VG through JCK, make sure you tell him you want a really good handle. He'll most likely tell you that it's problematic, but will jump through a lot of hoops to make sure you get a really good one. His own standards are very high especially if you tell him you're relying on him.
_
__Bottom Line:_

IMO, the MAC Pro and Masamoto are probably the best knives in this category _for you_. Neither is particularly "thin," but I don't think you care much about that as both stay sharp for a good long time and neither has much propensity to wedge.

I'd throw the Grand Cheff and the Ikkanshi Tadatsuna in there as well. However, you don't do your own sharpening so you'd lose the best part of the Grand Cheff, while the Ikkanshi Tadatsuna might be more than you wanted to spend.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

Wow,wow,wow,

I have been a chef for 3 years and was a butcher for 16 years. I was not the cut from a box butcher I was a, "they walk in on their own and they go out in little white packages. I have been a chef for a dinner, to a Resort. I have a culinary degree and thousands of hours of knife work under my belt so that was all leading up to this. I have never, never spent more than $50.00 on a knife. I use all forschner knives. I sharpen my own maybe twice a year and steel it every time I use it. I like this brand because it is sturdy and holds its edge. I use a steel I have used for 30 years.It is a rosewood handle medium grade and 16 inches. The steel of the knife is German made and does not chip unless vandalized. In fact I now am a chef for a frat house and one morning found my knife had been thrust into a #10 can of tomato sauce 5 times and it had 3 small chips in the tip and they sharpened out. I truly believe a good knife handler is like a pro golfer, its all in the skill not the instrument. I have cut chicken and duck backs and carved roast beef with the same knife. The web sight I found was cutleryandmore.com knives for under $50.00. They sharpen well, are balanced and clean up like new. If you are looking for something pretty you won't be able to use it in the trenches. I never cut on anything other than a cutting board and never loan my knives out. I did once and ended cleaning up blood because they weren't used to a sharp knife. Sorry for being forward but I an old and passionate about my knives.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

Having spent way too many years working for private clubs and drinking far too many soda pops with an awful lot of pro golfers I almost hate to give you the bad news.
Pro golfers don't use off the shelf clubs. Each shaft is cut to precise custom lengths, each head is custom bent to angles that benefit their stroke. So if I had a single Honyaki in my kit a pro golfer is walking around with a full bag of them. Ideally tools for any trade will match ones skill level and vice versa.


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

"*Duckfat, just bought a bunch of them and he's very enthusiastic -- more like rapturous. Tadatsuna wa-gyuto are a dime a dozen around here, but yo-gyuto (western handled) are much harder to find. "
*

Thanks BDL. Indeed I am thrilled with the Ikkanshi-Tadatsunas. I decided to let them go until I felt I needed to put them on the stones. These are by far the sharpest knives I have ever seen OOB. I sharpened the small gyuto just this week. It was certainly different then VG10 both in terms of hardness and the edge I was able to achieve. I think I was laughing like a mad scientist when I was done. My only regret? Not having these years ago. 
I'm almost done updating my kit. I still need a Deba or a Western Deba and I've got my eye on the Masamoto VC but I'm waiting for the summer sale at Korin. The more practical (cheap) side of me is looking at the Tojiro DP. 
I also need one more (yea right) WA gyuto. I really wanted carbon for this one but I like the Tadatsunas so much I'm really thinking about the Suisin Honyki. The other option is the Masamoto KS although Koki keeps trying to temp me with the Masamoto Honyaki. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2010)

Dave: 

There is nothing wrong with Forschner. (or Victorinox, same company) They make very sharp, quality, affordable knives that get the job done. I have used comparably priced knives that left me struggling and sometimes even cutting myself because it was so dull and uncomfortable to hold... so for the affordable segment, Forschner/ Victorinox is the only brand I trust to buy.

Thing is, I have more expensive knives and the difference is night and day. I was cutting carrots, for example, and the Forschner could not cut completely through straight... i was slicing it lengthwise to make planks (to julienne) and the knife came off at an angle. of course, i changed my cutting technique and was able to make it work. Later, i got out my more expensive knife (a Shun) and, using the same technique that did not work well with the Forschner, sliced through it like it was butter at room temperature.


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, me and my girlfriend both want to order the Masamoto from JCK. Should one of us vary our order and get one of the Hiro knives so we can test both? Also, since they have a flat shipping rate and my sushi buddy has agreed to show me how to sharpen properly, I would like to order some whetstones from JCK as well. Could you provide some recommendations?

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Which Masamotos?  The VGs?  

Masamotos are outstandingly good knives.  Better, in my opinion, than Hiromotos.  The one thing you do want to watch out for with them is F&F, especially handle-fit (which may or may not still be an issue, it seems like Masamoto fixed it).  Let Koki know that you expect good handles, and he'll at least pick through his stock to make sure you get the best he has.

I'm not a huge fan of JCK's stock of stones.  Still, if you're new to sharpening on benchstones, JCK's 1000/4000 combination stone is reasonably priced for what it is, and would make a good first stone -- just be aware that you'll (a) what a coarse stone in a year or so; and (b) outgrow it completely in a couple of years at most -- if you haven't already broken it or used up the 1000 side.  

If you can afford it, you'd be better off starting with 3 Naniwa 10mm SS stones -- 400#, 1000#, and 3000#.  After you've learned to handle the 3000# and your credit card has had a chance to recover you can think about adding a true polishing stone like a 10000# (in 10mm or 20mm), and about buying 20mm rather than 10mm as you start to wear your first set out (the 1000 should last at least three or four years).    

BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Here's the e-mail I got back from him:

Dear Chris
Thank you very much for your inquiry and interest.

You are currently interested in Masamoto VG Series Gyuto 210mm and Gyuto 240mm.

Masamoto Western Style kitchen knives sometimes have "not well finished part" on the handle. If your first priority is quality, we can recomend Hattori, Misono or JCK Original items more.

But for your shopping Masamoto VG Gyuto items, we will select the best condition one from our inventory. (We can select the one from 4Pcs to 6Pcs of VG-5021 and VG-5024.) We will do our best to prepare the good condition of good items for your shopping and shipment.

Thank you very much again for your inquiry and interest.

If you will have any questions, please let us know and help.

We will look forward to your reply.

Best Regards

Koki Iwahara

JapaneseChefsKnife.Com

Which VG is better?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, the only difference is length. The model no. that ends in 21 is 21cm long, and the one that ends with 24 -- you're never going to guess -- is 24cm.

Length is a very personal thing. As for myself, I prefer 27cm to 24cm, and consider 21cm to be way too short. If you've got a decent sized board and decent skills, you'll get a lot more productivity from a 24cm than a 21. Besides, six knives give you better odds than four.

The "skill" which makes all the difference is a grip allowing you to keep your wrist straight so that elbow, wrist, and knife point are all on the same line, and that allows you to control the point of your knife, intuitively, simply by looking. It's the same as aiming a pistol, a pool cue, a fencing foil, a hand saw, etc.

Most (but not all) skilled users prefer the pinch grip -- me too. If you don't already know how to do it, I can describe it pretty easily. There's a little more to it than just pinching -- but not much.

Finally, a Masamoto is just so darn _right_ compared to almost everything else. You'll hardly notice the extra length, at least not compared to most other makes.

Even so, not only can I not make the choice for you, it's one I should not. If you don't have already have 10" skills you should know in advance that the price is going to be a couple of months of awkwardness while you develop grip and board management skills.

BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

I've got the skills.  I've used 10" knives since forever.  The 8" one is for my girlfriend.  Pinch grip is just when you hold the knife by the blade at the bolster right?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Originally Posted by *MrChris* 


> I've got the skills. I've used 10" knives since forever. The 8" one is for my girlfriend. Pinch grip is just when you hold the knife by the blade at the bolster right?


There's a little bit more to the pinch grip, but not much.

1. Pinch the blade between thumb and forefinger just in front of the bolster (just as you said).

2. Close the rest of your hand around the handle, keeping it very relaxed (always). Tension will cause you to cut crooked, and will also cause you to tire. It's a bit of a vicious circle in that fatigue will also cause you to over-grip. A soft grip requires practice.

3. Keep your wrist straight in order to make the knife one with your arm. It helps some people to come over the top of the knife a bit.

4. Always hold the knife so that the vertical axis of the knife is square to the board, unless you want to make a horizontal or bias cut. Check frequently.

5. Not technically part of the pinch grip, but it goes along with it: Put your left foot forward (if you're a righty) so the natural angle of your right arm is square to the board. This means that squaring the food to the board will help you make straight cuts naturally and comfortably. You won't have to swing your elbow out. It's like aiming a pool cue or a hand saw.

I guess I lost track of the purpose of this knife. You're buying it for your girlfriend? As I said length is very personal, but I still favor the 24cm over the 21cm, for all the reasons previously given -- and then some.

However, on general principles I do not favor telling a girl-friend what to do -- especially as it relates to the kitchen. I think traditional gender-roles put them under a lot of pressure to know everything (or at least significantly a lot more than you), which can make offers to "help" or "teach" seem like criticism and interference. While it's true that our society has moved beyond those roles and that most modern mothers can't cook well and don't teach their daughters to do so either -- it doesn't frikkin matter. A lot of women (most? nearly all?) feel it anyway. Tread lightly Kimosabe. Happy is a lot better than right.

First Rule: If she's unhappy, you're miserable.

Still, a Masamato is so easy to handle that she won't notice the extra length in a bad way. Plus there are all those other great reasons. 
*
Bottom Line:* If it's a surprise for her, go 24cm; if she doesn't like it, exchange it and blame it on Koki, Masamoto and me. Print this post, it will help fix the blame. If it's for both of you, even more reason to buy the 24cm.

Your Bro,
BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

She went to culinary school, a fairly good one too, so she does know more than me.  Still, we do squabble over little things in the kitchen.  For example, I like salt more than her and I over salt her food sometimes.  I was going to buy one for her and one for me and she told me she likes the 8 inch knives but you're right, I should get her a longer one.


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

It's in the mail,  I'll let you know what I think when it gets here


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Let us know how it goes.

BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

Great knife, love working with it.  Only things I don't like is it's a little stiff and I should have bought the 10.5 inch one.  No biggie.  Very sharp, cuts glass-smooth.  There was some small imperfections on the handle but nothing serious in my opinion.  It's a little different on the edge too with the 70/30 sharpening.

One thing I thought weird was that on the instruction and method of maintenance it recommends only using this knife for slicing meat, bread and vegetables.  It says to avoid cutting frozen food, bone, and hard foods such as pumpkin and pineapple.  Pineapple?  I used it on some carrots, potatoes and onions and then took it straight to a host of root vegetables.  Is this just a disclaimer or something I'm actually supposed to listen to???


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Stiff?  Most people find Japanese knives whippy.  But there you go.

The thing about pumpkins and pineapples is the tendency to force the knife through some very tough cutting then slam the knife into the board.  Pineapple skin is very fibrous and difficult, but as long as you keep the knife straight in the cut and don't smash it down on to the board when you cut off the stem and root ends, you should be okay.  Ditto pumpkins.  

More, the sharper the knife the easier it is to control.  Keep it very sharp.

I have a 12" K-Sab au carbone that I use as a "chef d'chef."  Good idea to have something besides your go to gyuto for splitting chickens, cracking lobsters, cutting through rib cartilage, topping pumpkins, and so on.  It's just a regular 12" and not an actual chef d'chef.  Robust is nice, but you can make any edge pretty tough by profiling the edge angles obtuse and symmetric like a cleaver-esque 50/50 symmetry with a 30/22 double bevel.  Not to be too repetitive -- but that's not what you want for your go-to.

I'm not sending you out to the internet for more knife shopping.  But it may be useful to know that darn near any 12" chef's is going to be persuasive.  A lot of folks who step up to Japanese knives are making the step from forged Germans -- which tend to be very tough even at the 8" and 10" lengths.  If you don't have anything on hand and decide to add something  meant for abuse to your kit, feel free to go cheap.  Not every knife has to be a laser; a $15 machete from a surplus store is not a bad choice by any means -- fun, too.  As long as you can get an edge on it  you're good to go.

When you say 70/30, what you're saying is that when you hold the knife in your right hand, the right side bevel is a skosh more than twice as wide as the left side bevel (70:30 is roughly 2:1).  That's fine for the knife -- unless you plan to use a steel for maintenance.  If so, 60/40 (3:2) would be a lot better.  If not, you can even go slightly more asymmetric than 70/30.  A little assymetry along with a straight 15* edge angle on each side (30* included), should be a nice compromise between durability and absolute sharpness.     

Japanese knives seldom come really sharp out of the box, with Masamoto as no exception.  The first sharpening is called "opening the knife," and you want to establish a very even flat bevel, before going on to sharpening and polishing.  If you're not already a good sharpener, you may want to hire someone to do it for you.  

May both your girlfriend and you enjoy her new knife, 
BDL


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## mrchris (Mar 18, 2010)

I do plan to use a steel for maintenance.  There's a good knife sharpener about an hours drive from me.  What exactly should I be asking him to do?  Make the bevel 60/40?  Less than that?  More?  Can I not just use tree strokes on one side and one on the other?

I do have a big old Henckels for all my other rough work.

Informative as always, thanks BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Describing asymmetry by using "60/40" is a kind of knife jargon he might not know if he doesn't do a lot of Japanese knives.  If not, tell him you want the right side bevel (holding the knife with your right hand) to be around 2 times wider than the left side, but no more.  

I find it easier to look at the bevels I create rather than count strokes.  But you can do either when you profile the knife.  Even if you are a stroke counter, you'll want to check those bevels visually to make sure they're aren't any high spots.

Sharpening on your medium grit stones shouldn't do much to alter the bevel symmetry.  You don't want to take much more metal than you need to form a fresh, sharp edge.  Using the burr (or wire) method I favor, it's important to create to a burr on one side, then on the other; and once the burr is created to chase it (until you can get it flip very easily), and then to deburr.    As long as you laid a good foundation with your bevels, you're not going to change the symmetry much with routine sharpening.      

"Polishing" is just using your fine stones to remove the scratches (and serration) left by sharpening.  You already have a sharp, fresh edge and there's no need to grind off any steel.

You should check and flatten your bevels (on your coarse stone), and reset them if necessary, about every fourth or fifth time you sharpen.  For most home cooks that's once a year -- not much more. 

BDL


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

Like the tools of other craftsmen, cutlery can make or break your culinary experience.  When I shop for additional items, either to replace or enhance my large compliment of knives I don't look at brand.  A good knife must feel right.  I've found some rather useful items don't cost an arm or a leg or both.  Frequent culinary stores that have a large collection of knives available for purchase.  Handle them, feel the weight, the grip, the balance.  Take time to study the manufacturer I have mostly German manufactured items and just one Japanese.  

If it feels right do it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Bob,

You did a good job of expressing the conventional wisdom when you wrote:


> When I shop for additional items, either to replace or enhance my large compliment of knives I don't look at brand. A good knife must feel right. I've found some rather useful items don't cost an arm or a leg or both. Frequent culinary stores that have a large collection of knives available for purchase. Handle them, feel the weight, the grip, the balance. Take time to study the manufacturer I have mostly German manufactured items and just one Japanese.
> 
> If it feels right do it.


In addtion to being the CW, what you wrote makes a lot of intuitive sense. However, it jibe with my experiences in trying and buying knives and helping others do the same.

While great "feel" is certainly desirable, feel -- as long as it's adequate -- is not nearly as important as edge quality and those aspects of profile which equate to agility.

In store testing tends to be limited to the opportunity to wave a knife around, and air-chop. "Feel" in the store can be somewhat misleading as certain qualities like "heft" and "balance" are overrated in comparison. Sharpness is a lot more important than weight; and in fact, as skills -- including sharpening skills -- increase, heft _*usually*_ becomes a negative. Of course, that's a matter of taste.

There's no amount of pretend chopping that will let you know what it is about French profiles that makes them so much more agile than German profiles. Even a few carrots and onions under the blade aren't going to do it. It takes enough time with the profile to learn to use it, before making a comparative judgement.

Furthermore, anyone with a reasonably good grip can adapt to slightly different balance points without much effort. Everything else being equal, longer knives are more front heavy than shorter knives. If you can't accept a balance point at or slightly ahead of the pinch, you can't use a chef's knife in the range -- 24cm - 27cm -- that's most common for skilled cutters.

Of course, if you're shopping for a knife and it's around to give it a test wave, you should avail yourself of the opportunity. At least you can weed out those handles which absolutely will not work -- but a great many of the best knives aren't available for that sort of testing; and you don't get to the essence of the knife anyway.

I don't know what the right answer is.

BDL


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## joie7170 (Apr 27, 2010)

Hi, everyone -

As a total amateur in the world of cooking, I was just browsing through the forum and found myself looking through this topic.

I have to say... I had no idea choosing knives could be so complicated.

Or that a knife could actually "feel right" or "feel wrong".

Anyway, just thought I'd say that, because I'm totally floored. O.O


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Just got the MAC Pro 9.5" Chef's and it lives up to BDL's hype. Mind you a lot of other Chef's swear by MAC, as well. Anyways, I like it a lot... i like how it has a little heft to it and the blade is a tad thicker than most Japanese knives, but not to where it causes wedging. (like on the Shun) Similarly the weight does not hinder speed because it is so well balanced. I was able to hold it and air chop with it, but that is no real indication of the knife's performance. All the traits you would notice by doing that combine so perfectly and make this an amazing cutting machine. The same act led me to purchasing a bunch of lesser knives, which may never get used again because the MAC Pro is so great.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Glad you like it.  It's a definite step up from your old Shun.  Use it for a few weeks and you'll appreciate how much the different geometry helps you. 

Use it in good health.

Love it when a plan comes together, 
BDL


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## Guest (May 7, 2010)

you may also be happy to hear that i stopped being lazy and picked up a 1000/ 6000 whetstone. i already put a screaming edge on my MAC Pro paring knife, which interestingly was not very sharp out the box. i can't wait to have more time to work over my other knives... my hesitation towards self-sharpening is simply time. However, I'm not seeing good results with sending out my good knives (perhaps its the better steel), so I have to take it into my own hands.


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## truckdrift (May 8, 2010)

8" stainless for me... doesnt matter what or who, so long as the handle feels good and its all steel... i can put an edge on a steel blade with a straightener, but when ceramics start getting involved then you need some skill to sharpen it


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

so update on the MAC... nice knife still, but not quite the ideal knife for me. the way i am naturally holding it has created an entirely new callus on my finger and the knife has too much belly. i'm simply used to flatter knives like a more traditional gyuto, cleaver, or santoku. granted anything works at this point as long as its sharp, but its not the perfect knife i had hoped it to be...

i'm done buying knives for now, though. my chef-instructors call me "the guy with many knives". i have 5 "chef knives" and a full assortment of all the other knives. granted i cook 5 to 6 days a week, but i've gone a bit overboard. lol.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If the spine is bothering your index finger, put the knife in a vise and use a strip of sandpaper to round the spine -- or if you don't have a vise you can do it with your coarse stones. Relieve the corner at 45* with your coarsest stone; relieve the new cut by half (22-1/2* obviously) again with your coarsest stone; and then try to round the whole thing over with your medium grit. You don't have to a perfect job to make a big difference.

FWIW, a MAC Pro already has as traditional a _gyuto_ shape as you can find. It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who was happy with Shun's extremely arced, high-tip German profile would be so unhappy with a MAC that he would want a knife with a an even lower trip and even flatter profile.

BDL


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

i never liked ANY iteration of Shun's Chef's Knife. i have the Shun Santoku and like it, but its too short. the gyuto i have has a lower tip and less belly. the MAC seems like its trying to appeal to german knife users looking for a gradual transition to japanese.


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## wangqw (May 6, 2010)

why was my post deleted?who can tell me?


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I deleted it for a couple of reasons.

First and primarily because it was spam.

Squidoo pays kickbacks from Amazon and Ebay so you're plugging your review pages for profit. Fine line but it crossed over into spam. You can delete your current signature yourself or I'll delete it again for you when I finish here.

Secondly, the content wasn't topical.

The Original Poster was specific about two Japanese knives .While the Forschner is a fine product in its class, it wasn't on topic for this discussion. Not the right design, not the right steel, not the right length.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Huy Bui

Curiosity only and no challenge intended -- which gyuto do you own that has substantially less "belly" than a MAC?

Also, what specifically do you mean by "belly?"  I gather from context that you're probably using the term correctly, but it's so often misused it seems like a good idea to ask for clarification.

Finally, not every knife is the right geometry for every cook.  The MAC 9.5" chef's, which by the way qualifies as a gyuto, is typically French and has very little belly compared to a German profile -- but there are certainly flatter profiles especially with Japanese chef's knives, some of which, Takedas for instance, are almost kiritsuke flat.

Some Japanese chef's knives/gyutos sport a late drop to a low tip which tends to make the knife not only look flatter and also slightly more amenable to a straight push cut than the more French (and also common among Japanese makers) profile with a more spear-point shape by reducing the amount of belly in the approach to the tip.  Also common, perhaps most common of all, is a late break on the spine to a mid-line tip which looks flatter, but actually has the same shape.

BDL

PS.  Phatch, thanks for cleaning out the spam.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

It is a Tamahagane San 210mm.

I call belly the area of the edge to the imaginary line from tip to heel, but i also look at how much blade is in contact with the board at any given angle of cutting. I have adjusted to the MAC, but initially I was left with incomplete cuts because the blade had less contact with the board at that area of the knife vs any of my other non german profile knives.

the MAC cuts great though and I shouldn't get another knife right now. I was eyeing the Kikuichi at Williams Sonoma, though... i like the feel and the profile...


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

tadatsuna changed my life and that's coming from someone that has owned more knives than I can count. The tadatsuna gyuto if you don't abuse it and know how to sharpen for your needs is insane for actually prepping food.

there is another knife in the works that is fairly expensive based on the tadatsuna design being put together by devin thomas who is a rather famous maker of pattern welded stainless. While the knife is not "damascus" it is looking like it is probably going to be one of the finest knives on the market at approx 62 hrc and made of AEB-L which is a fairly amazing steel. Word on the street is that with a little sharpening know how it is besting some of the most of expensive gyutos on the market in shear performance. as for availability that is another issue as there is some intense demand for it.

mac has some good stuff but it seems you had already scoped them out. Tojiro and misono as mentioned also make some damn fine knives. the misono is a nice step up from the tojiro in the handle dept.

masamoto has several lines of fantastic chefs knives.

and most knives unless you are spending a fair amount of cash could do for a little spine rounding but that callous is a fact of life if you spend the majority of waking hours with knife in hand.


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