# Question about starters?



## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I'm attempting my first starter and decided to use Peter Reinhart's mild Levain starter. All is going well and I'll be ready to bake by the weekend. This question is to Kyle and others: 

I'm confused by the amount of time you should let a starter ripen. Reinhart and Leader mention in their book about 4-5 days whereas Glezer's and Cookwise say 7-14 days. The longer the ripening time the more acidic? And how much should you feed a starter once it's ripe and want to keep it in the fridge(if you're baking bread once a week)? Do you feed it before keeping it or vice versa? 

Thanks.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

All roads lead to Rome  The end game is the active yeast culture, not the process itself. It doesn't really matter how you get there. You aren't really ripening as much as harvesting the wild yeast. I have done both Reinhart's BBA starter and Silverton's 14 Day Torture Fest. At the end of both I had remarkably similar beasts. I am, by nature, drawn to the path of least resistance.

The acidity of starters is a topic of great debate. I have been lead to believe, and my breads seem to bear out, that the balance of lactic and acetic acids are what determines the flavor of breads. Acetic acids seem to prosper in a wetter starter and lactic acids thrive in drier starters. I keep my starter at 100% Hydration. For every 8 oz of flour, I add 8 oz of water. Not only does this give me a flavor I like, but it saves wear and tear on my addled brain.

I keep 4 oz of starter in my fridge. When I want to bake, I pull it out and let it come to room temp (about an hour). You need to at least double your starter at every feeding. This is why I only store 4 oz. So to my 4 oz of starter I add 2 oz of water and 2 oz of bread flour. I give it a stir and let it sit fo 8-12 hours, until it has peaked. Then I stir it down and add 4 oz of flour and 4 of water and repeat the waiting game. If the starter has only been in the fridge for 3-4 days I will then go ahead and build the dough, saving 4 oz. for the fridge and tossing the rest. If it was in the fridge for more than 4 days I will usually give it at least one more feeding.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Thanks Kyle, you're a wealth of information and I appreciate it!

So now that my starter is ready---do I need to feed it 3 times a day(or 8-12 hrs.?) until I'm ready to bake on Sunday or can I stick it in the fridge as it is? Also, is the consistency like a very thick pancake batter or looser? The flour I'm using seems to have a high hydration level. I have to say, the process is very interesting and I'm excited about baking my very first loaf of pain au levain.

An interesting observation ---my professional baker friend who makes the most awesome bread has had his starter for years. He does add additional commercial yeast to his bread dough because he says his starter isn't as good(leavening wise) anymore since the water in the area he works is awful. So I guess he just uses it more for flavor.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Yes, you can stick in the fridge. Mine has been neglected in the fridge for more than 2 months and it comes right back. You will need to take it out a day or two ahead and feed it before you want to bake. The consistency is a personal preference. Mine IS like a very, very thick pancake batter.

Kyle


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Reinhart mentions somewhere that his starter is ready to use in as little as 5 days, but gets better after two weeks. I've woken up a starter after 5 months in the reefer. I typically keep a big bucket of it, but haven't actually made anything from it in a while. All that will change when the **** weather breaks here in N.E. and I can use the brick oven.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I remember him talking about the improvement over time. I think he was talking about the initial creation of the starter. Mine is a youthful 2 years old.

What's it like to have a brick hearth in your back yard?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

I haven't used it since NYears day because we've had so much snow. We had a pizza party and I made 17 pizzas. It still needs to have an enclosure built around it. Right now it's got the metal studs and concrete board holding in the insulation showing. The snow is slowly melting though, we can finally see the ground in places, but we're expecting more today. This has been incredible compared to last winter.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

The anticipation must be killing you We are supposed to get 1"-2" more snow today as well. I think we have been spoiled over the last couple of mild winters. My guess is that this one is closer to normal. I have seen the difference my HearthKit insert has made in my breads. I can only imagine what a bona fide brick oven would do. Who cares what it looks like. If the neighbors squawk, just give 'em some bread!


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I have seen a bunch of chefs promoting this Hearth Kit. Does it truly make a difference? It does lessen your oven space, does it not?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Yes. it does take up room in your oven. About 75% of my oven use is bread so it doesn't bother me. I really like what it does to my bread.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Well, I made my first bread with starter and it was a failure. It didn't rise at all. The starter had a texture close to a poolish, and i had made the levain about 6-7 hours before mixing the final dough.It was about 70-75F in the kitchen. I fed the starter last night and it quadrupled in volume when I checked this morning---so I know it's still alive. I will try again today. Just in case I am also making the starter from Artisan Baking.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Can I add a bit of instant yeast to my levain if its leavening power is weak or is that a big no-no? Can the commercial yeast and wild yeast co-exist in this starter?


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Yes you can add a little instant yeast. In France I think yeast can be added at the rate of one-tenth of one percent and the bread can still be called levain. Did you perhaps mis-scale the salt? That could stop a dough, and if your starter was active....but maybe a little cool. You could bulk ferment at 85 degrees.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Salt was at 2.6%, actual recipe said 2.75 %
Final dough temp was about 72F. Bulk fermentation 3 hours, and about 3 hours proof. 
I've got another batch fermenting and to this one I did add .04 oz. instant yeast to the starter and proceeded to make final dough. Looks like it's rising fine----but ideally I don't want to "cheat" when making a levain bread.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Personally I think 72 degrees is too cool. Read Ed Wood's stuff on sourdough. He grows his culture at 80 something degrees and I think it's mentioned in Daniel Wing and Alan Scott that these kinds of cultures grow fastest up into the mid 90's.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

My bread came out great. I used Reinhart's Crust and Crumb recipe, with a little addition of honey. Very tasty, good rise and nice big holes in the crumb(I would still like it lighter). There is definitely room for improvement, though. I went into Kyle's website and read through his step-by-step starter commentary. My starter is definitely not as bubbly as his, but then again mine is more of a very thick/gooey(can't pour it) batter rather than the more liquid one he has in his photos. 

I also made Cookwise's "light-as-a-dream hot rolls" and they were wonderful. Very light and puffy.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I've been reading along.......I have read several of the bread books you "bread guys" talk about.....anyway I'm trying to figure out whom your referencing Bighat? I can't place who Ed Wood is, nor Scott and Wing.....would you mind mentioning their books or sites, please?

Also, I've never heard of the hearth kit for a home oven your mentioning, could you tell me abit about it?

I've really wanted to begin my studing on bread.....AH pastries....there's never enough time to learn all there is to learn!

Thanks


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Visit this site for the hearthkit:

http://www.metro-hearth.com/


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Ed wood is the author of "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity". He is also the proprietor of Sourdoughs International . He is a proponent of warm fermentation, I think around 80º. Wing and Scott are Daniel Wing and Alan Scott. They are the authors of The Bread Builders , a great book on wild yeast bread baking. Scott is also a master brick oven builder.

The HearthKit is a 3 sided stone that slides into home ovens. This page shows how it radiates heat from three sides.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Try adding more water. When it comes to big, irregular holes, wetter is better.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank-you......I appreciate the links too!


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Ok, I guess reading from too many books produces information overload and confusion. In Peter's book he says a wetter starter produces more acetic acid(sour flavor) while a drier sponge favors lactic acid bacteria. At the San Francisco Baking Institute webpage I lifted this quote from one of the instructors
*"A stiffer starter, at around 50% hydration will produce more acetic acid, resulting in more sour bread. A liquid sour, at 100% hydration, will favor lactic acid, and produce a mild and less complex flavor."* Maggie Glezer's book says the same thing.

In smelling and tasting my starter, I do notice it is more sour when it is more liquid.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Does the phrase "moving target" mean anything to you?  

That Reinhart favors a more liquid starter may be why he also advocates building a firm, or intermediate, starter before building a dough. I think that one of the reasons he advocates a 100% hydration starter is ease of maintenance.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Meaning if your starter is pretty firm in the first place---you don't have to build an intermediate starter? I've been keeping my starter at 100% hydration(like you said, easy on the math) and it's alive and kicking. I've still been hit and miss building the levain loaves. I tried Leader's recipe with the starter at 90%-100% and it wasn't too good. I still like Peter's mild levain recipe best. But the confusing part is building the intermediate starter---why can't you just use the refreshed starter as is??


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

You can use the refreshed starter as is. Reinhart mentions that and I think some of Silverton's bread that I've made does it that way. That's too bad that you found that discrepancy re: the lactic and acetic acid and the stiffness of a starter. I'll bet Wing and Scott have something to say about it. I'll look. Speaking of Scott, I fired my brick oven yesterday for the first time since Jan 1. Roasted some chickens, some potatoes and two gorgeous loafs of that cook's illustrated Italian bread. They came out absolutely perfect.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Bighat, can I come over for dinner?!?!?!That sounds so good.

I'm making your Italian bread recipe in an hour.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Italian bread was a success, my husband and I devoured it with shrimp scampi cooked in olive oil and lots of garlic. 

My past 2 bread baking days have been very successful. I refreshed my starter and used it the next day as is(a test). I made one formula with 50% starter and another with 40%. I made the dough more on the wet side since I like all those big holes. A crosssection of the my bread looks a lot like Thom's country french bread photo in Artisan Baking. Happy with the results


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Congrats! Now you are beginning to experience the moving target that is bread baking. It is not quite the exact science it's thought to be. The more you play the more you will learn.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Update on my starters---I made Peter's San Francisco sourdough today in baguettes and batards---the taste was amazing!!!! I no longer buy store bought bread since I've been making it on a regular basis. My shaping techniques need improvement, though.


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Great stuff AC! Isn't this wild yeast stuff cool? The shaping requires lots and lots of practice. One thing my "teachers" at Amy's kept drumming into my head was to slow down. Better to do it right than to do it fast. The speed will come later


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Very cool! My starter does not produce very acidic breads, but I am very pleased with the flavor results. The depth of flavor is wonderful----the loaves come out with a hint of wheaty nutty sweetness, mahogany reddish blistery crust and great aroma. I've given up on trying to inject steam in any shape or form---I just lose way too much heat and the crust still softens. So I brush the loaves with a small amount of olive oil(I know, it's against the norm, but it's just bread for the family and it seems to work) and pop them in the oven. I get better results from this than spritzing the loaves with water(plus the extra flavor on the crust is yummy).


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Oddly enough, the softening crust can be the result of too much steam. If there is too much steam present then the bread can't bake off sufficient internal moisture during the baking process. It has to leave at some point so it waits until it's out of the oven. As the bread cools the moisture escapes, softening the crust. I had this problem and stopped spritzing as well. What I do is put a sheetpan under my stone before preheating the ove. When I load the loaves, I pour 1 cup of HOT water onto the sheetpan and close the oven. This seems to do the trick for me.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Can a starter be frozen??


Kyle didn't you mentionned a while back you had frozen starter??


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

I can only report that starters are supposed to be able to be frozen and revived. Yes I did freeze my starter, copious quantities infact. But I moved before trying to revive any of it. In the madness of moving, the frozen starter did not make the cut


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

How would you revive the starter Kyle?


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## kylew (Aug 14, 2000)

Once it was thawed, I would toss out all but 2 oz. I would add 2 ounces of bread flour and 2 ounces of water an give it a really good stir. Then let it sit for 12-18 hours. It should have more than doubled. Then I would add 3 oz. each of flour and water and let it sit again. After 3-4 feedings the starter should be quadrupling in volume after 8-12 hours. The key to feeding it is to at least double what you are feeding, by weight. If the starter has been domant for a while, or frozen in this case, I like to at least triple it on the first feeding.


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Thank you so much for the information Kyle.


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