# The ultimate budget minded n00bs guide. All contributions welcome!



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Hey guys- been reading here a bit and read a lot of arguments. I have a narrow window to make this purchase so research time had been truncated, so I am asking for specific suggestions. Consider this a challenge blade heads! Going to set this up as easily as possible:

Me-
Cooks A LOT at home. What? Food. Same as you guys. Never had to hack through bones in my kitchen so far, so no worries there. Melons though, are popular with the kids.

What do I want in a knife? SHARP OOTB, preferably single material blade. (Because that seems to be the simpler, more popular choice? Elaborate please.) Easy to sharpen, durability of cutting edge is a plus, but not critical as I plan to practice honing and sharpening quite a bit, so ease of sharpening is a necessity. Handle type is of little importance, (60% western 40% traditional Asian right handed is my weight of preference. Pinch grip, but flexible.) I would like it reasonably quickly, as in I don't want to wait more than say 4 days for shipping, and would like to buy everything from 1 vendor. I am massively OCD so production defects will agrivate me if I can not fix them myself, though I would be happiest to avoid this. ( I am a fairly handy man.)

My knife history:a lot of nice pocket knives, can sharpen them well on small smith diamond sharpeners. Awful typical cheap cooking knives, no name. Haven't tried to sharpen a large knife yet, but am fearless when it comes to trying if I have the best tools I can afford to set me up for success.

What I need: to up my cooking knife game. I recently realized I was paying a lot of attention to my pocket edc knives, but absolutely no attention to my kitchen knives. I could chop a small tree down, but can hardly an onion with what's in my block. Why don't I use my edc knives for this? Never thought about it til now, but those onions are big compared to my pocket knives. I want a 240mm gyuto knife primarily and necessary stone(s) to kickstart my journey on the cooking knife blade head obsession now that I have been granted permission by the lovely lady in this brief window. I figure a carbon (non stainless) knife, but am open to others with explanation, and 1-3 stones to maintain/perfect said knife. (I am expecting a 1k/6k type setup here.) Budget is $250 for everything, but I can against my better judgement break that budget; I just don't see a need to as from what I've read the improvement will be so great even to a tojiro that going beyond that won't be worth it until I master sharpening the larger blades on the newly acquired water stones. (I've read a lot about blades on great knives needing to be sharpened or reset before they are worth the price.) I want the best starting knife and stones possible to master and move forward from. If I have money for a second 120mm or paring knife too, major brownie points. I know I'm not interested in German knives, more interested in Japanese/ French tradition. 

What I ask of you, dear forum geniuses and dwellers is this: suggested starter packages of 240mm knife + stone(s) for ~$250 or less, that will set me up best to learn large blade sharpening/honing, a good reference for F/F when moving forward later, and will provide an instantly satisfying experience in the kitchen compared to what I'm used to. I know at this price range to not expect perfection, but I expect a nearly enlightening experience compared to the dollar store knives I stole from roommates in college a decade a go. (They lasted a long time, right?) I will answer accurately any further questions you may have.

I hope you guys see this more as a challenge than an annoyance, and I assure you I've read hundreds of posts here, but to be honest the threads wander about somewhat aimlessly from one disagreement and digression to another, and the organization of the forum itself leaves much to be desired, Not to mention contradicting arguments from one thread to the next. I do have a list of potential knives, but I'm more interested in your responses not knowing my choices so far, as that will add weight to my choices should they be similar, aiding in my selection process. I will say that I'm looking mostly at CKTG, though if your package makes since and all comes from the same place, I'll shop anywhere so long as it is reputable. If I choose your suggestion, consider me your knife B**** forever. I'll put it in my signature or something. 

Thanks in advanced for your help and cumulative knowledge and expertise. I will place an order Thursday or Friday, so let's hear it. Let's make this thread the best summarized resource for people on a budget this summer.

Thanks!


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

First I will recommend these stones

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=shapton+kuromaku

Get the 1000 and 5000 and you're good to go. At some point maybe years away, you may want to add a 200-300 grit for repairs and thinning. Really good for the money, fast cutting, don't dish much. Plus the box is a stand.

With your remaining budget there are some real good options in your price range. Some are out of stock.. cause they are popular

http://korin.com/Knives/Swedish-Carbon-Steel_2

http://www.knivesandstones.com/blue-2-damascus/

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-240mm-wa-gyuto/

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-uraku-240mm-white-2-kurouchi-wa-gyuto

If you don't mind used post a Want To Buy thread for $150 carbon steel gyuto on kitchenknifeforums. I've had pretty good luck getting stuff there, a lot of it almost new.


----------



## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Sabatier 10 inch carbon knife and a Norton Tri-stone.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

For sab look here http://www.thebestthings.com/knives/sabatiercarbon.htm

Yes, softer carbon steel has a purpose beyond being frickin cool vintage knives. It's more forgiving and less chippy, an easy transition from other western knives. Also, you can use a honing steel on them!


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Thanks for the replies,
Do you guys recommend the 4 star elephant Sab over the K Sabatier?


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I was going to recommend Gesshin Uraku White #2 Gyuto with a Gesshin 2k stone (soaker, cuts like a fast 1k but with a better finish, does a lot of work relative to the wear on the stone, will last a lonnnng time)

Or Ikazuchi 240mm (Stainless clad, AS core) for a more laser-like cutter. Also from Japanese Knife Imports. King 1k, Bester 1.2k, or Suehiro Cerax 1k for a budget starting middle grit stone that you can get used to learning waterstones on and then you can add a fine grit stone in several months down the line.

Both will have good fit and finish, a nice sized, well made handle with a horn ferrule, and an appropriate blade profile particularly for push and pull cutting. You can also request that Jon hand-sharpen the knife before he sends it out so you know it'll have a good edge on it to model off of. 

Edit: I forgot JKI stocked Suien VC Gyuto as well. The 240mm plus a stone like the Gesshin 2k or maybe one of the 1.x k offerings keeps you around budget, and you could go cheap for flattening with coarse sandpaper or drywall screen on a flat surface or hold out for a diamond plate later.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Great replies, undecided between the Sab and some of these j knives you guys are suggesting. Benuser, I know the Amazon Ksab is new old stock, but from what you say I would consider getting it direct if the import fee could be justified. Starting to think I'm more interested in the western handles at the moment.

Thanks guys!


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Spydrummer said:


> Great replies, undecided between the Sab and some of these j knives you guys are suggesting.


Well put it this way - Do you want to feel like Julia Child with some vintage carbon steel or like one of those young guns on top chef? Also there were some pretty good american carbon steel makers too. Crazy pricing these days though easily 2.5x what I paid last summer. I miss my thinned out forgecraft


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Gotcha on the NOS thing. Can we compare price points a little? 
How would a $63 tojiro compare in quality to a $75 Ksabatier? How about the Ksab to the Misono Swedish? I probably like the idea of a western handled jknife more, but the price of the sabatiers is quite good. I understand it may be apples to oranges but I'm thinking more of steel and ff.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Those used knives look nice- any comments on the peanut gallery on obvious flaws with them?
Thanks


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Honestly Julia child and young gun top chef sound bada$$. Probably some weight to young gun top chef though.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Where I'm at right now:
Misono Swedish 240 gyuto (still trying to look away from tojiro and Ksab, but the prices are tempting and I am a frugal guy.

How does one match a saya to this blade? Particularly from the korin site.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It's a good choice. Also sold at http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ , just as fast shipping, maybe a little cheaper, but no initial sharpening.

If you get it from korin just ask them to find you a matching saya. They carry a bunch from different makers, one might fit. If not these work great http://korin.com/Korin-Knife-Guard?sc=27&category=17904511 Just make sure to dry your knife before putting it in


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Right, how much of a PITA is sharpening those 40/60 and 30/70 bevels? I'm not worried about it, just curious as this will be the biggest challenge for me starting out.


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

For me it is not a big deal at all. I naturally hold the right side to a lower angle anyway. Im a knife flipper though not a hand changer.

Watch the JKI sharpening videos on youtube


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Last question I think: misonu Swedish or Suien VC?


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I haven't used either personally, a few people on here can probably comment on the misono swedish. 

I have the Suien VC cleaver and I like the steel a lot.  The gyuto is made with the same steel.  I guess it's harder steel HRC 62-63 vs the Misono at 60 HRC.

On the other hand, the misono looks very slightly thinner and it has a dragon etched on it.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Also if you can hold off on ordering for a day and considered ordering from Korin, I think their July sale might be something like 15% off on knives? I recall something like that last year.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

TBH, the dragon is why I kept looking around. Dragons are awesome, but is it not the most cliché thing to ever put on a knife? I really prefer the look of the plain blades w kanji on them.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Just ordered Misono Swedish, no dragon w sharpening. Also picked up the Shapton Kuromaku 1k,5k from Amazon. Pretty pumped! Any knife and stone specific tips are appreciated, thanks guys!


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Enjoy!!

The dragon is why I got the knife 

Have a plan for stone flattening by a few months down the line. Coarse sandpaper or drywall screen on a flat surface, or a diamond plate. Give yourself some time to build the angle holding and sharpening stroke muscle memory for a larger+ longer knife. Use the sharpie trick!


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Shapton stones don't dish so fast.  And if you try to use the whole length of the stone it should wear evenly and you can go even longer without flattening.  They are splash and go, do not permasoak or them.    When you air dry, don't leave them in direct sunlight.

FYI I just got an email  15% off Korin knives summer sale


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Yeah, I saw the sale but I had to operate in my window and y'all know how easy it is to get antsy. I'm cool with a flattener- recommendations? Can it be a cheap one so long as it's flat? Also, I'm going to pick up a coarse stone to try and mess with a cheap old 50/50 blade, can I go cheap with that too? Are leather strops pointless with jknives? It seems like all work is done on stones- no steeling or stropping- do people strop on their finest stone between sharpenings- I'm not keen on the idea of steeling as it is.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Flatteners- diamond plates cost the most but won't go out of true. You can get coarse "stone fixers" for cheaper but they themselves will get dished over time. Sandpaper or drywall screen backed on a hard flat surface cost less up front (and for a while afterwards).

You can go with King or like a Beston 500 as a cheap-ish coarse option.

Some folks strop loaded or unloaded but it's usually secondary concern to just making sure you get a good edge off the stones. I do touch ups, either very quick sharpening or just edge trailing strokes on my fine stones.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Got my knives in today! I got the Misono I mentioned before and a Tojiro to compare it to. Tojiro wasn't scary sharp out of box, but was more than sharp enough to have a blast cooking with. No oxidation of any kind, just cutting and wiping is great. I've got to learn how to take advantage of that blade real estate though, it's much larger than I'm used to so I find myself going much slower.

The Misono was absolutely scary sharp with the initial sharpening. When people say the blade is reactive, they are understating the facts. This thing oxidizes the moment it touches a cucumber. I took knife out, cleaned and dried it, and sliced a cucumber for about 15 slices or about 2 minutes and it shows spots. I expected oxidation and was very quick to dry but not quick enough. I can't tell the color of the spots though as they're too small, which leads me to some questions: 
1) Can you help me identify if this is rust or patina?
2) Should I remove it?
3) Should I force patina?





  








image.jpeg




__
spydrummer


__
Jul 12, 2016











  








image.jpeg




__
spydrummer


__
Jul 12, 2016











  








image.jpeg




__
spydrummer


__
Jul 12, 2016







Thanks for the advice so far, I'm very happy with the knives- if I can get past the patina thing I'll be at full speed, thanks!

Edit:
To be clear, after I cut the cuke I rinsed and dried the blade immediately- no sitting on board or anything. You may see some oil I put on the blade in the pics, I did this in hope of 'pausing' whatever reactions were going on until I got some more information.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If it's trending red or orange it's most likely rust. If it's more gray or colorful (excepting red/orange spots) it should be patina.

Congratulations on your new knife purchases! You'll get past most OOTB sharpness with freehanding after some practice on your skills


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Don't like like rust just patina. I say cook some steaks. Slice, hot water , dry, repeat. That will get your patina started right quick. Chicken too. Plantain peels workIf you have to force it use warm vinegar


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

20160711_214237.jpg




__
foody518


__
Jul 12, 2016











  








20160711_214313.jpg




__
foody518


__
Jul 12, 2016







There's an example of a more veggie patina. Lots of gray, a little bit of color through it but no blatant orange or red spots like how rust on other metal objects looks. Hope this helps


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Limited experience here but mango works very fast and leaves a nice gun metal blue.


----------



## spydrummer (Jun 29, 2016)

Ok guys- happy camper update time. I read a lot about patina and what not, and after looking at a lot of pics the natural patinas are by far the prettiest so I decided to go that route. I cut a bunch of meat, onions, and everything I could find and let it sit out longer than I initially thought was ok to allow the patina to develop. Initially I was freaked out because those spots I posted pics of last time just didn't look like what I thought patina was supposed to look like. I expected the knifes finish to dull more evenly, not spot up like acne the way it did. Here's some pics of the Misono's patina.

Strangely, there is some orange/brown patina- I don't think it's rust at all, as it is thin and totally smooth, but it's visible in the pics- let me know if I'm wrong.

P.S. - I love petting the knife after its dried off after use, it's so smooth. Am I crazy?





  








image.jpeg




__
spydrummer


__
Jul 16, 2016











  








image.jpeg




__
spydrummer


__
Jul 16, 2016


----------



## ron wood (Aug 4, 2016)

I liked Tojiro.    May not be as bling as some but solid value. Shun is.. of course.. reliably good.  240MM... that's BIG.... are you parting out Bison?  I found that a knife above 10" is too much even if a prep at a volume house where I'm cutting most of the day.   For HOME.... I don't use my 10" much....Got 7" and 8 1/2 that do fine.

MOST well respected Japanese brands are damn good...assuming you learn to SHARPEN.. I saw a few relatively costly knives that were NOT well sharpened.   I had knives that were more like $25-35 and damn sharp..  In a Pro kitchen...... I'd be VERY careful to have a flashy ,big $ knife.. as some busboy or temp can walk off with it,.   At home.. that's no matter but at home.... you ain't using any knife for 5-7 hrs in a row.   I worked for a Chef who had a 12" Forged Forschner.. LOOKED great.. HEAVY as hell and the blade was so thick it took forever to sharpen. My 10" thin blade (and cheaper) Forschner.. could get REAL sharp and it would not wear out your arm in 15 minutes.  My 10" is NICE in a kitchen where I have QUANTITY to cut up.. but...I  have become FOND of my razor sharp,light,quick 7" knives. At HOME.. those handle the job. BIG difference in cutting up ONE bell pepper.. vs a whole CASE of them.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

240-270mm feels good to me as a petite, small hands home user. I like that size for julienne and for cutting melon fruits, particularly watermelon. As for weight/heft, one of my 240s weighs around 5 ounces. Not at all an issue for fatigue. Either those or a 220x105mm Chinese cleaver is my usual default knife. 
Smaller can be used at home sure, but not experiencing problems handling the longer knives either...


----------



## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Ehh back to the topic, I don't see any rust in that picture.   When you're done cutting rinse wtih HOT water and dry it off with a kitchen towel.    Baking soda would help with reactivity too


----------



## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

MillionsKnives said:


> Baking soda would help with reactivity too


Rubbed in with a halved spud to complete the ritual and which you can then cavalierly toss, or trim and save if you are as obsessive about waste as myself.


----------

