# substitute for gelatin?



## angrychef

A client is requesting my pastries but wants no gelatin in any of the items( I think she has an aversion to where it's derived from). What could I use as a substitute for gelatin? Pectin? And how much would I have to use for mousses and such? Many thanks for the help!


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## kimmie

*AGAR-AGAR* Also called _agar, kanten, Japanese gelatine, Japanese moss_ and _Ceylon moss_, agar-agar is an Asian product extracted from dried seaweed. Neutral in taste and with a more efficient thickening power than gelatine, it's used for many Asian fruit puddings, jellies and other gelatinous desserts. It can be found in Asian markets and should be stored in a cool, dry place.

I hope that helps.



[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]


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## mudbug

gelatin = animal jelly = gelatine

Equivalents: One envelope of plain gelatin = 1/4 ounce = 1 tablespoon. This is enough to gel 2 cups liquid. Four sheets leaf gelatin = 1 envelope powdered gelatin

Notes: Gelatin is made from the bones, skins, hooves, and connective tissue of animals, including pigs. Some kosher and animal-free gelatins are available.

Substitutes: agar (Sets and melts at a much higher temperature; will remain firm without refrigeration.) OR guar gum OR carrageen OR arrowroot

From: www.foodsubs.com 

Look here for vegetarian gelatin resources.


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## pooh

Angrychef,

Have you seen the kosher/halal gelatin topic, on this very same forum?


There's more talk on the subject.


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## momoreg

I assume you saw the other thread on this subject just a little lower down in this forum:
http://www.cheftalkcafe.com/cgi-loca...&f=18&t=000063

You may find some answers there...


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## svadhisthana

I know you can get a vegetarian gelatin. My sister is Islamic and can not use the one derived from an animal source, this is what she uses. I don't know of a source however. 
Svadhisthana


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## ann1

Just wondering about actual chemicals in the products and those used to process them.  I have gluten intolerance and was told to avoid all MSG.

Carageen is seaweed, MSG

Agar is also seaweed, MSG

Gelatin was also on the MSG avoidance list.  But, it seems as though there are at least two different kinds.  (animal and vegetable)  Does the animal form have a glutamate protein and a sodium?  What is it manufactured with?

What are the particulars of arrowroot?  Is it just a type of grain/flour that can be used for thickening?

Any kind of help is very much appreciated.  So, I will thank you all ahead of time for taking time to read my post.

(Sorry if I ask too many questions.  Last year I saved my own life when the doc said I was dying and he did not know what was wrong.  I just want to be so careful and not eat anything that would make me so ill again.


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## coup-de-feu

Flax seed can thicken.  I have used it to bind gluten free vegan burgers and ice cream.  I've only tried it with raw seeds, simmered a bit and blended - gets real thick.

I have never heard before that MSG is in seaweed, I thought it came from a type of grain. (?)

CDF


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## ann1

Thanks for hint about flax seeds.  I will have to try them. 

In answer to your question.

The highest amount of natural MSG is found in seaweed.  Beets also contain one of the highest amounts of natural MSG.  (Interesting side note, when sugar does not say cane sugar, it is beet sugar.  Usually local store brands are beet sugar.  I have called to ask.)

MSG can also be processed and/or used as a processing agent.  Anytime a label says glutamate protein and sodium you get MSG. Where there is MSG there is usually gluten. MSG is found in all self basting turkeys, most canned broths, soups, and now in canned tuna fish as well.  The marker is "broth".  Whenever anything is marked broth there is glutamate protein and a sodium.  Also, there are other ways that labels hide MSG.  They may say natural flavorings.  Well, MSG can be all natural or processed.  There is a website about MSG and labeling, it has been very helpful in keeping me healthy.  I can't remember the name, but it was something about truth and MSG, or names for MSG.  I read it, printed, remember it when I read labels, but can't remember the sights.  But, you should be able to find it online.  Gluten is a protein found in wheat.  I am not sure as to glutamate protein.  At this time I just know that they are related somehow.  Being gluten intolerant has really been scary for me as I began to explore labels and what is really being put into our food.  Whenever I eat the wrong thing my body stops digesting and I become very ill.  My step dad is a biochemist and he has also helped out with some stuff.  This is why I am still on the search for "what is what".  It seems to be pretty complex at times.  Add to it a severe milk allergy.  This is why I have become a good cook.


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## chefedb

Can you produce any factual medical evidence stating that MSG is harmful to your health? It occurs naturally in many foods we consume..

Nitrites and sulfur  also are in our daily diet. The other thing MSG is in is hydrogielzed vegetable protein. Sugar and salt based on the volume of our total daily consumption is worse then MSG.


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## boar_d_laze

Ann,

With all due respect you are very confused about gluten and it's relationship to glutamates.  For what it's worth, not all glutamates are equal, nor are they particularly like MSG. 

Most of your other "information" -- as a matter of science, chemistry and any other objective viewpoint -- is also false.  For instance, "broth" does not equal MSG.  Also, "hydrolized vegetable proteins" aren't MSG, and neither are "natural flavors." 

MSG is MSG is MSG.  If it's in packaged food it must be listed as one of the contents.  Period.  The end.  There are no workarounds. 

If someone tells you something else is so much like MSG as to be a functional equivalent, make them explain the chemistry.  Just because something is a glutamic acid it doesn't mean it's like MSG.  Even if there's sodium around (and when isn't there sodium?).

Websites and other sources promoting "healthy" and "natural" foods and lifestyles are not necessarily purveyors of anti-science, junk science, and other unscientific propaganda, but you'll end up rich if you can find someone to take even money on their accuracy.   

Ed rocks.

Sorry about the rant,

BDL


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## ann1

For those wanting to know some of my resources:

www.celiac.org

www.csaceliacs.org

ww.celiaccentral.com

www.everydayhealth.com/diet

www.truthinlabeling.org

www.msgmyth.com/hidename

www.glutathionediseasescure.com

I agree that a lot of "natural food" garbage is just that. I rant about that as well. As I mentioned before, I have been learning and have been asking a lot of questions. It is completely frustrating sometimes. There is even debate on some things as to their gluten content when they have been okayed by the government and called gluten free. All I know right now is that stuff containing MSG is off limits to someone who is gluten intolerant. By following that, I am alive to write this email. Best wishes in your search.


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## chefedb

Ann       Please do not believe what the government tells you or states. They will not state a product is no good, simply because they are blocked at every turn by the politicians that represent the state or place where the product sources if not politician it will be a lobbyist. If any one is crazy enough to believe anything the government tells us then they are nieve.. Today they do not even have the resources to do inspections that they are supposed to do... Ask any of the websites you mentioned to give you a documented medical source.  THEY CAN"T


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## foodpump

Ummm. getting back to gelatin...

As menioned agar-agar is a good substitute, and is available in it's natural form ( clear seawood) as well as procesed powder. Agar is very popular with many of the Asian cuisines.r

Other vegetable gums are also available.

Pectin can also be used, there are two varieites: One is derived form apples (ripe apples contain no pectin, only unripe fruit contains pectin), and the other is derived from citrus fruit and seeds.

For mousses and the like you can also use pure cocoa butter, or white or milk chocolate to "stiifen" up the mix.

Gelatin is a natural product, as others have said, made form connective tissue from animals. It is made by a heat process, and very few, if any, chemicals are used. Be aware, "isinglass" is a natural product, also used to refine/clarify beers and wines, and also used in glue manufacturing. It is the float bladders of non-oily fish, namely Sturgeon, that are processed using heat and water processes

For a "blast from the past" google "Peter Cooper" (Yup,* that *Peter Cooper) a famous American who made his (first) fortune by making (and patenting) hide glue ( the only glue known to mankind prior to WW1) He also invented the process of making gelatine, which got bought and sold by several people until General Foods bought it, and changed the name to "Jell-O"


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## rat

I saw that on the food channel today, scary to think jell-o was originally a by product of making glue YUK! but YUM! at the same time.

Can anyone with real world experience post equivalencies for substituting agar and the like for gelatin? This would come in handy for all of us for future reference.

My Internet searches yield varying results.


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## kitten01

Hi there everyone! So, I'm the new kid on the block and I just wanted to introduce myself and ask all you lovely folksies a few questions. I'm born and raised here in Texas, I have a fantastic loving boyfriend/fiancee, an amazing kid sister, and I adore food. These things combined cause me to mass search the internet looking for new, healthy and on the topic of gelatin, less disgusting ways to make tasty treats for the folks here at home that are so dear to my heart. As of right now my family and I are planning my baby sister's eleventh birthday party, and she wanted to do this really fantastic hippie theme, and I already have everything planned out as to the cake and the cupcakes and even the decorations. However, one day when searching the internet out of curiosity which both horrified and disgusted this cat, I discovered a few rumors that gelatin is animal by-products and unwilling to feed such a disgusting, thing as that to my wonderful family and also my little guinea pigs /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif hehehe I went on a hunt for substitutes for gelatin, and low and behold I found this lovely website, yay!!! Anyhow long story short, the reason I listed myself as someone who just likes food is because I don't feel that I'm at a level where I deserve to be called a chef or a cook just yet, although my fiancee and I love to experiment in making dinner, I am waiting until I have more experience and knowledge and higher mastery of the skills needed to be an honest cook, at least in my heart. So, I would love it if ya'll could please explain to me exactly how each of your gelatin substitutes work especially the post about the flax seed. Just a little side note, I am making chocolate based recipes so please keep in mind that retaining flavor is key here.

Thanks a bunch! I can't wait to hear what ya'll have to say!!


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## foodpump

What do you find "disgusting" about gelatine?

True, some people won't use it for religious reasons, or dietary reasons.

It's made fom the connective tissue of animals.  Basically the same thing that gives "body" to stocks and sauces, and is made the same way too.


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## kitten01

Hello again! Yes, they are relatively the same, which is why you don't see me making stocks very often. I'm sorry but I just can't eat something knowing what it actually is. Maybe if I had never found out, I would still love gelatin but that's just the way I am. So, back on track to  the subject of gelatin Substitution. I am going to attempt to make my trial run today for the cupcakes first, and I would really like to know the best substitutes for gelatin. Last night, when I was reading someone suggested using raw flax seeds and simmering them for a bit so I was hoping to find out a bit more. I also would like to know which is the best gelatin substitute for a mousse recipe, I have heard of agar-agar, kuzu, tapioca powder, pectin, and arrowroot powder but everywhere that I have looked no one seems to give any in-depth information on these, i.e how long it takes for them to thicken, how well they thicken as compared to gelatin, and if they add any strange aftertastes to the dish. So, I would love a gelatin substitute that will either add to the flavor and texture of my chocolate-caramel mousse, or one that is very subtle and does not leave an aftertaste. Does anyone have any suggestions for me, on my journey of experimentation in the world of food?

Thanks again,you guys.


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## petemccracken

So, I presume you do not eat

Chicken soup
Pot Roast
Roast pork
etc.
as they all contain gelatin?

BTW, pectin is a "by product" of many fruits.

I'm confused about your cupcakes and would like to see your recipe

Though not directly "on target", take a look at: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/cornstarch-substitute.html

And here's the results of a Google search for Substitutes for gelatin: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...gjgO3jYmQCQAAAKoEBU_Q-KzT&fp=8631cdd35a4d476d


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## igannon

So here is Martin Lersch's book on Hydrocolloids (of which gelatin is one):

http://khymos.org/hydrocolloid-recipe-collection-v2.pdf

If you are using agar, be aware that it has a melting point that is above body temperature, which gives is a crumbly brittle texture instead of a smooth one. It probably wouldn't be as noticeable in something like a mousse than it would in a panna cotta ect...

A rough conversion between gelatin and agar is about 3:1 by weight (I.E. 10g of gelatin will gel about as much as 3.4g agar). The exact conversion is in the book, though.

Another good hydrocolloid for gelling is sodium alginate (famous for its use in spherefication). It has a very similar texture, but is another type of extract from seaweed.


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## kitten01

Hello again, first off to address my diet, I do not eat pork, I only eat kosher foods, I occasionally eat chicken soup when I am sick, and I haven't had pot roast in forever and probably won't. Now back to the original subject of this post, for all you curious folks out there I was planning on making a chocolate mousse recipe and placing it inside my cupcakes to give a nice little chocolaty surprise on the inside. However, I will not post the recipe as of yet, as I feel that I would like to work with it first. I will simply to suffice it to say,that my recipe calls for two envelopes of gelatin,and if you look on the internet you will see there are several people who suggest using gelatin to create the right texture and creamy thickness. So, any hints or tips and no more jokes please about my aversion to animal by-products. If you choose to eat horse and cow hooves, that is your business. As for me, and my family, we will eat kosher, and occasionally vegan.


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## igannon

Kitten01,

My understanding has always been that the gelatin-type products are in mousse mostly as a stabalizer to keep it from deflating. Otherwise, you can definitely make a mousse without gelatin at all.

If you're going to pipe it into a cupcake, I might suggest skipping the "mousse," per se and going for a chocolate chantilly. The coco butter keeps it very stable, but its a little denser than a mousse. I just use 100g couveture (milk, white or dark all work as long as they have around 30% cocobutter) and 300g cream. Boil 100g cream and pour over chocolate, stir to emulsify and then add the other 200g cream. allow to cool completely and then whip to soft peaks. Just be careful not to over whip, because the extra fat can make it really hard to repair if you break it.

Cheers!


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## kitten01

Good evening! I just wanted to send you a big thank you to all the lovely people who have helped and especially Igannon who has just given me an even better idea of how to make these cupcakes easier! Thank you so much!!!

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## chefedb

Kitten  Keep in mind  the cupcake recipe above cannot be used with a meat meal. as it contains dairy. Also in your post above somewhere you mention 2 envelopes of gelatin. @ envelopes will gel 1 quart of liquid. I hope you are making a load of cupcakes to use a quart of filling.Good Luck


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## foodpump

No hooves in gelatine.  Glue is a different story, but for food grade gelatine, no hooves.


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## annecho

Hi.  I am a cookbook fanatic. 

Myrna Kornfeld in Voluptuous Vegan,p 240, has the best info I have seen re: agar-agar, kudzu and arrowroot. She suggests a more custardy effect comes from a combo of agar and kudzu, or arrowroot. There is about a page and 1/3 giving details on using flake, powder and bar agar...  Saved me from experimenting out another gloopy mess!


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## coup-de-feu

You can temper the chocolate in a moose to firm it up a bit, or make a ganache. 

Flax seeds can thicken stuff up. if you simmer them a bit then blend them they make a sort of paste or "mud".  it may hold air bubbles. it kinda gives a funny texture and is best the first day.  works good in ice cream.  I haven't experimented too much with it.


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## cactusheart

If it's chocolate mousse you're looking to make gelatin-free, the recipe I use for work contains no gelatin. I could help you with that if you like.

Pectin and agar are the best substitutes I can think of for gelatin.

But...If you have an extra cold, empty corner of your fridge and alot of time to kill, you could do something crazy...It's a method I use for making cheese out of yogurt. I know it works for stabilizing whipped cream, who knows what else it could do

*lol* /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rollsmile.gif:Get about 3 layers of damp cheesecloth, place the "mixture" in and wrap the ends up to a long wooden spoon and keep it suspended for about 24-48 hours... I'm betting it'll set like a mousse when it's done...


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## cactusheart

...and you can make whipped ganache. If your cream ratio is higher than usual (like I once did on accident *lol*), people will think it's mousse and no one will know the difference *lol* /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rollsmile.gif


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## sarah k

Hi everyone,

So in my attempt to catch up with the class that i missed of school today as an apprentice chef 2nd year. I stumbled across this page looking for the coversion rate of gelatine to agar agar to make the practical test dish that i missed out on seeing and making today in prac class. So was wondering if one of you wonderful chefs would help me out...
We all know what school is like and well i just didn't make it out of bed this morning at a before the bird even catches the worm time of 5:30 am when u went to sleep at 1:30 am...
Anyways so the dish is....

Coconut Bavarois

Never made it before and for religious reason i can't make stuff from gelatine at home and the test is next week so i need to make it on my day off this week. Oh and work is way to busy and probably wouldn't have all the ingredients anyways.

So if ya can help me out i would be ever so greatful...

Humble lil apprentice!

P.s: one more thing, my family is vegetarian and when looking at a tub of cream i read that it contains gelatine, is t the same type of gelatine as the gelatine used in making jelly and stuff or is it a natural gelatine found in the fat in milk? Stupid question? I feel really dumb right now! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif


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## sarah k

Hi everyone,

So in my attempt to catch up with the class that i missed of school today as an apprentice chef 2nd year. I stumbled across this page looking for the coversion rate of gelatine to agar agar to make the practical test dish that i missed out on seeing and making today in prac class. So was wondering if one of you wonderful chefs would help me out...
We all know what school is like and well i just didn't make it out of bed this morning at a before the bird even catches the worm time of 5:30 am when u went to sleep at 1:30 am...
Anyways so the dish is....

Coconut Bavarois

Never made it before and for religious reason i can't make stuff from gelatine at home and the test is next week so i need to make it on my day off this week. Oh and work is way to busy and probably wouldn't have all the ingredients anyways.

So if ya can help me out i would be ever so greatful...

Humble lil apprentice!

P.s: one more thing, my family is vegetarian and when looking at a tub of cream i read that it contains gelatine, is t the same type of gelatine as the gelatine used in making jelly and stuff or is it a natural gelatine found in the fat in milk? Stupid question? I feel really dumb right now! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif


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## panini

If it says gelatin then I would assume it is animal based.


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## chefedb

For all the vegetarians and relegious members and guest. . Go to the supermarket and buy a product called KO-JEL  It is certified Kosher by the Union of Orthodox Rabbis ( OU)  and is Kosher Parve. This company makes a whole line of kosher desserts and ingredients.

I have never seen gelatin as an inert ingredient in heavy cream, pectin yes on rare occassions. In most cases you could call gelatin a natural by product ., as it is extracted from bones pectin from seaweed..


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## sarah k

Still would like to know the conversion rate of gelatine to agar agar?

I need to make Coconut Bavarois at home and for religious reason can't use gelatine in the house. But i do have agar agar, so any tipe would be great!

Thanx


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## petemccracken

Take a look at http://www.bulkfoods.com/agar_agar.htm


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## sarah k

Oui Chef

Great... Fantasic!!!
I think i can do this... Well learning includes failing so i will try it out and let you all know how i go... Monday is D - day so keep ur fingers crossed i don't mess it up!


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## sarah k

ARGH
Ok... here sits a frustrated apprentice!

I tried making my coconut bavarois with agar agar and it turned my bavarois GREEN!

If any1 can tell me how to make coconut bavarois with agar agar and have it turn out white pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee let me know.
Also i tried to make a jelly with agar agar and it didn't set... Help?!?!?!?


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## chefedb

Agar will not work. Get Ko jell like I said above. Pectin will work and will even gel outside refrigerator.. Buy a brand called CERTO


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## babellah

can i use agar-agar as a subtitute for gelatine in order to make marshmallow??


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## nightscotsman

I'm afraid agar will not work for marshmallow. Agar sets at a much higher temperature than gelatin, and it has a very brittle and hard texture rather than tender and elastic when set.

And if you're using a non-egg white recipe, the gelatin also acts as a whipping agent by adding protein. Agar has no protein so the mixture would turn out dense and hard.


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## schwimmwagenv

Good (Evening AngryChef:

Have you considered using flax seed gelatin? It's very easy to make, has the consistency and mouthfeel of raw egg white, and is omega-3 heavy stuff.

Simply add 2 tablespoons of flax seeds to 2 cups of water, and boil for 10 minutes. This will make the equivalent of 2 eggs. Strain through a fabric - not cheesecloth - into a jar, dash in 2 shakes of salt and into the refrigerator if you have any left. You may be able to boil off the seeds for a second time for more gel, frankly, after the first boil, I prefer to use the seeds in ginger muffins.

Flax seed gel is vegan, and if you have any left over you can either squirt a little alcohol in it (1/4 the volume of gel) for the best darned hand sanitizer, or use it for lotion after a shower. Also makes fantastic hair gel. I'm not sure about the caloric properties, but it's thirsty stuff, so add 1/4 cup of water or milk to the recipe for each 'egg-worth', or serve the item with lots of fruit or vegetables.


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## lttlbtkosier

I have Celiacs and also avoid MSG in products but only if the MSG is made from gluten products.  Did u ask your doctor if that is what they meant for u to avoid, also.  I can use arrowroot in my cooking and have no reactions,  Arrowroot is a root and not considered a grain,  it is used in paleo cooking and baking.  I use it in bread recipes instead of the gelatin and have good results.


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## jaynna

angrychef said:


> A client is requesting my pastries but wants no gelatin in any of the items( I think she has an aversion to where it's derived from). What could I use as a substitute for gelatin? Pectin? And how much would I have to use for mousses and such? Many thanks for the help!


These substitute might help you:

1. *Agar- Agar - *flavorless gelling agent, derived from cooked and pressed seaweed, is available flaked, powdered, or in bars. Grind the agar-agar in a coffee grinder or food processor and then cook it, stirring it regularly until it dissolves. When used in a recipe, agar-agar sets in about an hour and doesn't require refrigeration to gel.

2. *Carrageen which is *known as Irish moss, this seaweed, found in coastal waters near Ireland, France, and North America, is best when used for making softer gels and puddings. To prepare carrageen, rinse it thoroughly, and then soak it in water until it swells. Add the carrageen to the liquid you want to set, boil for 10 minutes, and remove the carrageen. One ounce of carrageen will gel 1 cup of liquid.

3. *Kosher Gelatin - *many kosher gelatins are vegan. Try Lieber's unflavored gel, Carmel's unsweetened gel, KoJel's unflavored gel, and Hain Superfruits.


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