# Chefs/restaurants who still use MOTHER SAUCES



## acerezo (May 1, 2010)

Hi everyone!!

I need help finding a Chef or any restaurants that still use the mother sauces. please help! I can't seem to find anyone online. Need is ASAP please. thank you!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hello Acerezo,

It would help if you could just ask your questions straight out.

Could you be a little more specific about what you want? And, which "mother sauces_"_ in particular?

You don't have to look far to find cooks using _bechamel_, _hollandaise, _and some version -- not Escoffier's -- of _tomate_. On the other hand, most modern chefs view _espagnole's_ role as a precursor to an old fashioned version of _demi-glace_; and instead make a more contemporary _demi_ without it. There's a surprising number of _veloutes _running around in regional and comfort foods -- for instance _chicken ala king_ -- but the people who make those don't necessarily identify the sauces as _veloutes_. "It's just roux, stock and milk, sugar."

BDL


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Just about every French restaurant uses mother sauces.


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

Just about every sauce is a variation of a mother sauce - it's hard not to use them.  Maybe you are asking about the way they are employed, such as keeping a bain marie with 3 or 6 of the mother sauces in for easy menu diversification like in a chalk board menu bistro?  Like that a cook can quickly make 100's of sauces and soups.

For the most part, sauces use up scraps that are full of flavor and neutrients but that people don't want to eat - like bird heads and veggie peels.  Knowing the mother sauces helps because a cook can look at what the sauce is going out with, what scraps they have made the base with, and apply that to a mother sauce technique.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Coup-de-Feu,

You wrote, 


> _Maybe you are asking about the way they are employed, such as keeping a bain marie with 3 or 6 of the mother sauces in for easy menu diversification like in a chalk board menu bistro? _


Six of "the mother sauces" in a bain marie? I don't get this at all. Maybe we understand the term "mother sauce" differently. What do you mean?

Let's skip the bird's heads (please) for the time being and move along to,


> _Knowing the mother sauces helps because a cook can look at what the sauce is going out with, what scraps they have made the base with, and apply that to a mother sauce technique._


I thought I was lost before. What do you mean? What's a "mother sauce technique?"

BDL


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

BDL

I understand mother sauce to mean what one uses to make all sauces with.  A mother sauce is what holds whatever one wants to put in it.  The term mother sauce is subject to a lot of interpretation; some chefs leave out gastrics, coulis, glace de viande, sabayons and other egg emulsions such as mayo and anglaise... 

By bain marie I mean a roasting plaque filled with water and however many "bain marie" pots in it.  Each pot has a mother sauce kept warm in it to be used as the cook sees fit.  Example: bechamel in the bain marie used to make either sauce mornay for mac and cheese, or country gravy for the biscuits - but the list of uses for bechamel goes on and on for each sauce made with milk and thickener as a "base", or "mother".

I got to admit I made up "mother sauce technique" up. but how else to explain?  A sauce cook can work for days to make something not knowing what it is going to go out with, sweet or savory and all of scraps.  A sauce can also be a soup, dessert sauce, or ice cream...  give me a minute and I may be able to explain what I mean


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## bluesed (Jan 16, 2010)

http://lynnescountrykitchen.net/sauc/mothersauces.html

*DEFINING THE FIVE MOTHER SAUCES*

*Béchamel*, the classic white sauce, was named after its inventor, Louis XIV's steward Louis de Béchamel. The king of all sauces, it is often referred to as a cream sauce because of its appearance and is probably used most frequently in all types of dishes. Made by stirring milk into a butter-flour roux, the thickness of the sauce depends on the proportion of flour and butter to milk. The proportions for a thin sauce would be 1 tablespoon each of butter and flour per 1 cup of milk; a medium sauce would use 2 tablespoons each of butter and flour; a thick sauce, 3 tablespoons each.

*Velouté* is a stock-based white sauce. It can be made from chicken, veal or fish stock. Enrichments such as egg yolks or cream are sometimes also added.

*Espagnole*, or brown sauce, is traditionally made of a rich meat stock, a mirepoix of browned vegetables (most often a mixture of diced onion, carrots and celery), a nicely browned roux, herbs and sometimes tomato paste.

*Hollandaise and Mayonnaise* are two sauces that are made with an emulsion of egg yolks and fat. *Hollandaise* is made with butter, egg yolks and lemon juice, usually in a double boiler to prevent overheating, and served warm. It is generally used to embellish vegetables, fish and egg dishes, such as the classic Eggs Benedict. *Mayonnaise* is a thick, creamy dressing that's an emulsion of vegetable oil, egg yolks, lemon juice or vinegar and seasonings. It is widely used as a spread, a dressing and as a sauce. It's also used as the base for such mixtures as Tartar Sauce, Thousand Island Dressing, Aïoli, and Remoulade.

*Vinagrette* is a sauce made of a simple blend of oil, vinegar, salt and pepper (usually 3 parts oil to 1 part vinegar). More elaborate variations can include any combination of spices, herbs, shallots, onions, mustard, etc. It is generally used to dress salad greens and other cold vegetable, meat or fish dishes.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Hey BDL. Who's on first, whats on second, he's on third . What was purpose of original question????  Vinagrette , Veloute  a mother sauce????

 Am I in the correct venue??


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Just about every sauce is a variation of a mother sauce - it's hard not to use them_

While that's true if you confine yourself to classic French cooking, it's by no means universally correct. There are, literally, thousands of sauces that have no connection with the mother sauces of French cooking.

Even modern sauce making, with its emphasis on lightness, is far removed from the constrictions of the classic mothers.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Oh whatever!  Water is a mother sauce!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There are seven mother sauces in "classic" French cuisine. Careme had four, one of which didn't overlap with Escoffier's five. At some point after Escoffier touched Adam's finger and gave humanity life, everyone slapped themselves on the forehead and said, "merde." Merde is not a mother sauce, but mayonnaise is.

*Careme:*

_Allemande_

_Bechamel_

_Espagnole_

_Veloute_

*Escoffier:*

_Bechamel_

_Espagnole_

_Hollandaise_

_Tomate_

_Veloute_

*Modern, Synthesized:*

_*Allemande:*_

It's pretty much an egg stiffened veloute. No one uses it. It started petering out of French cuisine by the mid 19th C around the beginning of the culinary revolution and trend towards simplicity which carried Escoffier to sainthood. It enjoyed a brief resurgence right after WWI, with a bunch of dishes (especially fish) which everyone called _Parisienne_ then, but nobody does anymore. Now _Parisienne_ seems to mean anything but.

_*Bechamel:*_

Darn near everyone uses _bechamel_. The issue is, uses it for what. Bechamel, Espagnole, and veloute, as roux based sauces have pretty much disappeared from the high end _haute_ French, some other high-end European, and New International Cuisines, but they're still going very strong in a lot of regional and bourgeois cuisines.

_*Espagnole:*_

It's been rendered pretty much redundant, especially as a path to demi. During the nouvelle and California revolutions we discovered that if you left stock on the stove it thickened up by itself, and that was pretty much it. I like _Espagnole_ as a mother, but haven't been a professional cook for multiple decades; so I don't count. A few people on CT use it -- one of whom employs it not as a mother but as gravy. Titomike is using my version to make demi, and is very happy with it.

_*Hollandaise:*_

Mmmm. Hollandaise.

_*Mayonnaise:*_

Where would the Japanese be without it.

_*Tomate:*_

The mother tomato sauce, "tomate," wasn't something you tossed on spaghetti, or used right out of the pot. Rather it was used to supply structure without starch as well as some color and sweetness -- the sweetness coming after it married the other ingredients and cooked down. Everyone still uses a tomato "sauce" for the same purpose, but no one uses Escoffier's version or anything like it because canned tomato products are so good there's just no need. Modernly, we use tomato paste and go from there.

_*Veloute:*_

It's pretty much gone from modern high end French cuisine, New International Cuisine, and so on; but is very much alive in ordinary cooking worldwide. Think of it as gravy and you get the idea.

_*Vinaigrette*: *_

NOT a mother sauce, for two reasons. Vinaigrettes should be made _a minute_, because they eventually separate, and the eventuality doesn't take very long. Daughter vinaigrettes are still vinaigrettes, there isn't enough distinction or progression in the daughters. Mostly though the daughter is created at the same time as the mother, which drives a stake into the heart of the whole mother/daugher relationship as I understand it.

Distinguish all that from, say, taking jarred mayonnaise, thinning it with diluted vinegar, and sweetening it with sugar in order to make "Alabama White Barbecue Sauce."

But Bluesed got it from Lynne's who got it from someone else -- which means at least there's some following for the idea that it's a grande. Plus, I'm not researching this, just pulling it out of my bony head; and I certainly don't know everything. There's something on which we can all agree.

Hope this illuminated for someone,

BDL

PS. It seems our OP, who pleaded help ASAP, has forgotten us. Que lastima.

PPS. I published a slightly edited version of this, called _Snow White and the Seven* Mother Sauces_, to my blog.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I think our OP has written her test by now.......

So BDL, you're telling me that ketchup isn't a mother sauce?

Ducking and running......


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

foodpump said:


> I think our OP has written her test by now.......
> 
> So BDL, you're telling me that ketchup isn't a mother sauce?
> 
> Ducking and running......


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## scotts (Mar 1, 2010)

I still use Mother Sauces.  Bechemel, Brown, Hollandaise and Tomato.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

Helllo Scotttoooo I still use all my mother sauces and then some. You know how it is here the the Alps!!! lololol


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Unterageri????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kanton Schwyz?

Vierwaldstattersee?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ed: We will probably never know.

Foodpump: Ketchup is _tomate_ sweetend with sugar, acidified with vinegar, and seasoned with smoked cloves. I understand Canadians like it quite a bit when they can't get curds and gravy.

Scott and Chris: If you use a lot of roux based sauces it says the Nouvelle/California revolution pretty much missed your establishments. That's not a comment on quality or a criticism of any sort, just an observation. One man's stodgy and old fashioned is another man's _retro_.

I'm wondering if the "brown sauce" is based on a _roux pincage_, itself created around browned or sweated _mirepoix_. In other words, is it an _Espagnole_?

Why no _veloutes_? Surely, if you're making the other stuff you're making _veloutes_.

What goes into your _tomate_? Or, as the case mahy be, _tomates_? Escoffier and the other _alte kakers_ (Japanese for "reverend masters") used to bend themselves around pretzels trying to work with dodgy tomatoes.

BDL


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Wow no one has answered the original question  "does anyone know restaurants or chefs that use the mother sauces?"

I do not know where you live Acerezo but the Grand Sauces are a part of every kitchen....maybe just a derivative of them

Demi Glace, Veloute. Bechamel, Tomato ,Hollaindaise .....   these are starting points

Here is something  to consider  to start off a good Glace de Viande...........  Espagnole

Well ketchup is a derivative of tomato sauce.....

and hey BDL we are the ones to invent Poutine....we never replace ketchup for that ....so taboo


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Gypsy,

Historically, _demi-glace_ is a daughter not a mother. _Espagnole_ is the mother.

Lots of restaurants and professional chefs still use many of the mother sauces. No question about it. A blessing on their heads.

At the very high end, though, especially with French and New International Cuisines, you just don't see many flour thickened sauces. This isn't snobbery on my part, it's just how it is. If you search "Espagnole" in Chef Talk, you'll see that I stand up for it as a really good way to make demi-glace. I was trained to use the old mothers and happen to like fooling around with them, but food fashion is not up to me.

If you're making _tomate_ (aka tomato sauce) the Escoffier way, you're one of very few people to still do it. Not all tomato sauces are created equal, and only a very specific type can be termed a "mother" within the context of French cuisine. Canned tomato paste does a better job of doing the things Escoffier wanted that particular mother to do -- structure, color, sweetness. At the other end of the structure spectrum, good, canned, crushed tomatoes do a better job as well.

When a Canadian -- like Foodpump -- makes a ketchup joke, poutine is the proper response. In fact, poutine is the proper response to most Canadian jokes.

BDL


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

BDL....

      Espagnole is the beginnings of the Mother or Grand Sauce Demi Glace . Equal parts fond de veau brun and espagnole....

I am   Canadian ....eh.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Catsup or ketchup is no way a derivative of tomato sauce in the true meaning of tomato sauce, its like saying A1 is brown sauce or demi. Things do not change that much.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Besides which, ketchup predates the mother sauces by at least a century.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Let me see. If you take one sauce and add something to it -- oh, say, more stock -- and reduce the whole thing to make another sauce... Which is the mother? And, which is the daughter?

Also, thank you for teaching me how to make _demi-glace_. I'd always wondered.

BDL

"Give a man a fish, some butter, a little flour, a few capers, some parsley, a lemon, perhaps a few brussel sprouts, a bit of bacon, salt, pepper, garlic and a potato, and he'll have a nice lunch. But give a man a gun and a map with the banks marked on it..."


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_But give a man a gun and a map with the banks marked on it..."_

.......and he'll spend the rest of his life in a federal prison where he'll get fed three good meals a day.

Brilliant scheme to feed the hungry, BDL, brilliant!


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

BDL, will you please be my new grandpa?  Of course, you're only actually old enough to be a young father (to me), but you have so much wisdom and information.  I doubt that we view food the exact same way, as you appear to be classic French and higher-end food, but I could learn a ton from you, without you even scratching the surface of your own knowledge.  I wish I had not only your information, but your experience behind the information (which is what makes the information so useful). 

Actually, and off topic here, I'd love to see you and my late grandfather duke it out on knife sharpening.  He owned a restaurant many years ago and I remember his coarse stone looking more like a dish -- it wasn't cupped, it was dished.  The (I'm guessing it started life as a) boning knife was almost down to a shiv by the time the restaurant closed.  He was cantankerous and always right in his own mind (sadly, a trait I picked up from him).  Just the idea of him sharpening his shiv and you going all "chasing the burr" on him would raise both of your blood pressures, but surely be fun to watch.

I think a "mother sauce technique" would be creating ad hoc gravy/sauces from pan drippings instead of having the espagnole (and I may have even chosen the wrong mother sauce) sitting in a container as a "starter". 

(Since I tend to come across sometimes boorish and rude, I want you to understand that my comments above were meant truly in respect and honor, not in an unfriendly manner.)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Gobblygook,

Thanks for the compliments.  Sounds like your grampa, you and I have a lot in common.  Not just the boneheadedness.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Ed,

A-1 is raisins.  Mother sauces have no raisins. 

Soylent Green is people. You may have them with ketchup or curds and gravy.  Either way, it is the same price. 

BDL


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Wellll.. if we really want to split hairs, the "original" Catsup/Ketchup was an Indonasian condiment and had no tomatoes in it.  But it did have cloves--lots of 'em. 

Ther's good ketchup, and there's real crap.  The crap just has tomato paste, corn syrup and clove powder--the stuff you see in the shelves below the brand name stuff.

Kinda weird about the Indonasians, they grow most of the world's cloves, and they are also the largest importer of them.  They like to smoke cloves in cigarettes, and cloves don't grow in predicatable cycles--hence the importing.

In defense of ketchup as a Mom, it is used for cocktail sauce, finds it's way in bbq sauces, and 1000 islands, and many Asian dishes use it as wells--usually a 100 oz tin right there beside the hoisin, soya, and sesame oil,

Mother sauces, eh?  Knew an Englishman who called hisself a cook, took pride in making "bastard" sauces:  Stuff straight out of the faucett or of the can and some oil roux.  "No need to get fancy, right?"  He would say.....


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> Let me see. If you take one sauce and add something to it -- oh, say, more stock -- and reduce the whole thing to make another sauce... Which is the mother? And, which is the daughter?
> 
> Also, thank you for teaching me how to make _demi-glace_. I'd always wondered.
> 
> ...


Well good point BDL.....I guess vinegar is the "Mother Sauce|" of Vinaigrette and butter is the "Mother Sauce" of Hollaindaise....Milk must be the"Mother Sauce "of Bechamel

I get it now thanks

Well on the note of Demi ...let me know if ya need anymore tips ...

well ....can we let the ketchup just be ......it's ketchup......for goodness sakes.....made in different countries with different food to add it to in mind....

I still have not seen # thread girl ....so we can just keep rehashing the almighty sauces.......cool ......this should be never ending ...love it!


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

A long time ago when I worked in the old NY hotels. We would take a 20 gallon stockpot and cook it down to obtain maybe a pint if this strong tasting rubber. It was called Glace d'viand. To me , this was the original as we call it today Beef Soup Base.We would take a tiny piece of it off and add it to the sauces and soups .we were making. Today many places believe it or not still maintain a stock pot, but very few reduce it to this point. The soup base they sell today is quite different using hydro vege protein, msg, and salt as the primary ingredients.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

In the 18th century, Ed, the same thing was called, variously, "soup glue" and "traveler's soup."

Just showing, once again, that the more things change........


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I learned it as "glace de viande", and we would always make it from the remouillage.  Pour into a tray, it would congeal darn quick, wrap into 1" cubes, wrap and freeze.  A chunk of one cube would be tossed into a'la minute sauces. 

Flavour was only so-so, but the body-- more body than a room full of Miss Universe contestants......


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

This latest "soup glue" stuff.. is it beef stock reduced to near solid form, or something quite different?

Typical beef stock is a reduction to a degree, but since reductions are just vaporizing the water off and concentrating the flavors, it seems plausible (though possible burning is certainly of concern) that you could reduce until you have a molasses type syrup, hence my question. 

I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have.  I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Actually, Gobblygook, it's gelatinized. As Ed aptly described it, like rubber.

It actually depends on what point you stop evaporating; there are names for almost all the stages.

Have you ever seen Kitchen Boquet? That's about the loosest stage, and is comparble to a demi-glace.

In the 18th century they usually let it dry out even further, the way boullion cubes and powder are today. The dried sheet would be broken into hunks, and that's what they carried around, addiing hot water as needed.


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## mikelm (Dec 23, 2000)

Really a fun threaqd...

especially the insuults /img/vbsmilies/smilies/laser.gif

Mike /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## brisket (Jun 30, 2010)

Great thread.

Gobblygook said : "I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have.  I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up.  "  

 I feel the same way.

Now help me out here, I seem to have missed this nouvelle cuisine/ california revolution thing you mentioned BDL.  How do you make demi without espagnole?  Please give me the link to your recipe.  I feel like an idiot here, don't make fun plz..


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

gypsy2727 said:


> Well good point BDL.....I guess vinegar is the "Mother Sauce|" of Vinaigrette and butter is the "Mother Sauce" of Hollaindaise....Milk must be the"Mother Sauce "of Bechamel
> I get it now thanks


Vinegar, butter and milk aren't sauces though. They're merely ingredients. Espagnol is a sauce though, used as an ingredient to make another sauce. Same as bechamel is used to make mornay. Classical demi is without a doubt a derivative. Demi as it's mostly made these days (ie straight reduction of stock) could be classified as a mother sauce.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

When I make demi, which is pretty rare, I usually make it the old fashioned way, going through Espagnole. My versions of both owe a lot to Pellaprat. I've already posted a recipe, adapted for the home kitchen, on CT. If it will make your life easier, there's a printer friendly version on my blog.

I like the old fashioned version and have no complaints with it. That doesn't mean the modern version doesn't have some advantages. While it takes a little more time and care to make, and isn't quite as sturdy, it has a cleaner, clearer look and the taste is a little more direct.

Modern, Nouvelle/California demi, which the always charming Julia Child called "semi-demi," is just a straight reduction. Again, start by sauteing a mirepoix; if you wish, you may add a tiny bit of tomato paste and make a pincage; add stock and reduce slowly. You may or may not strain out the mirepoix at some point during the process (I would); if you like, you may add a bouquet garni or a splash of wine (I use Madeira or Sherry) at some point during the reduction process; continue reducing until the desired consistency is reached -- usually a skosh less than 40% of the original volume, able to nappe a metal spoon.

Another thing about modern demis is that you can use just a variety of protein stocks to make one. Beef, brun, veal, brun (roasted) chicken, chicken, and white chicken. I don't think I could take fish stock to that level of reduction without making it bitter, but not only do I not know everything, I'm not the world's greatest cook either -- maybe tons of other people can.

Since a demi depends on tightening up protein molecules for a lot of its structure and lipo-protein for a lot of its mouthfeel, I'm reasonably sure you couldn't demi a vegetable stock -- at least not without some serious thickening ledgerdemain going far beyond reduction.

Greg's take on the Espagnole/demi mother/daughter relationship is awfully reasonable. I have some abivalence about adding demi as a new mother, since it's already a daughter and the whole "mother" thing is more traditional than relevant to the way haute cuisine is done nowadays. Not saying no, just that don't know. Whether or not it's a _mere_, it's definitely one of the _grandes_. Maybe that's enough. And jeeze -- who cares about the semantics as long as tastes great and is bad for you?

Got plaque?

BDL


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## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

Brisket said:


> Great thread.
> 
> Gobblygook said : "I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have. I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up. "
> 
> ...


Making nouvelle demi-glace is pretty much just a matter of reducing veal stock to the consistency of a sauce.



boar_d_laze said:


> Greg's take on the Espagnole/demi mother/daughter relationship is awfully reasonable. I have some abivalence about adding demi as a new mother, since it's already a daughter and the whole "mother" thing is more traditional than relevant to the way haute cuisine is done nowadays. Not saying no, just that don't know. Whether or not it's a _mere_, it's definitely one of the _grandes_. Maybe that's enough. And jeeze -- who cares about the semantics as long as tastes great and is bad for you?
> Got plaque?
> 
> BDL


I'd like to get a hold of the person responsible for deciding a heavily reduced stock would be called demi when there was already a sauce with that name with a completely different MOP. Nouvelle demi is closer to glace than anything else. Should have named it 3/4 glace and eliminated all these arguments. My reasoning behind possibly considering nouvelle demi a mother sauce is that it's not made from another sauce and it has many derivatives. I'm more than with you on not caring about semantics, though.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Greg said:


> Vinegar, butter and milk aren't sauces though. They're merely ingredients. Espagnol is a sauce though, used as an ingredient to make another sauce. Same as bechamel is used to make mornay. Classical demi is without a doubt a derivative. Demi as it's mostly made these days (ie straight reduction of stock) could be classified as a mother sauce.


Yes these are true facts you are stating Greg ,,,,,,thank-you

These Mother sauces ...Vinaigrette, Hollandaise, Bechamel ...it would make some scence to not need some kind of what did you call it....a sauce? yes Espagnole is an ingrediant to the Grand Sauce......Demi ...Glace de Viande ...Oh what fun...../img/vbsmilies/smilies/talker.gif


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh just throw the All Mighty Espagnole in there for good measure.....it's been a part of my life forever....and most chefs I hope .....I think we are spliting the sauces to thin ....oh dear let's all go and check our stoves......there are more important issues I'm sure at hand

Have a great weekend all! Stay happy and safe ....it's the last long weeekend up here in Ontario .....

Gypsy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

Having recently fought my way out of a wet paper bag I can now view this thread without angst...

I would like to point out, however, that 'modern' demi-glace, 3/4 glace viande, marmite ....does not _taste _the same as classic demi-glace or the more workable BDLesqspagnole even after watering down with semantics, economics or laziness...

BDL...for your amusement...

We had a _well _emulsified, *thick* balsamic vinaigrette (with no extra additives) that hung around the chiller literally months as one of those 'science' experiments...

No sh*t, we were observing and discussing it while I held the open container upside down over my head...it did not move a mm!...it _can _be done.

later...Mike


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yum.  Did you charge extra?

BDL


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Titomike said:


> Having recently fought my way out of a wet paper bag I can now view this thread without angst...
> 
> I would like to point out, however, that 'modern' demi-glace, 3/4 glace viande, marmite ....does not _taste _the same as classic demi-glace or the more workable BDLesqspagnole even after watering down with semantics, economics or laziness...
> 
> ...


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

First, my new grandpa has a BLOG? How modern of him! Second, I read your recipe and frankly, I feel more stupid after doing so. Every time I think I might get even a loose handle on cooking, someone goes all "french" on me, using big words that I can't even pronounce, and I get kicked back into the gutter. While I love butter, I've never been inclined to "mount" it. Of course, being in the rural south, my neighbors wouldn't see if I did, so maybe I should try it. I'm thinking it would melt though, but I digress.

While I am constantly amazed at the amount of knowledge you have and the use of proper terms, I'm guessing the best way to learn the vast language of the culinary world would be through a classic French cooking school? I'm still stuck at "cooking it down" instead of "reducing to a nappe consistency". Your way certainly sounds more elegant though.

I'm still working on the first reading of McGee's "On Food and Cooking", though I've read a few sections twice as I go through the whole book, rather than skipping around to the areas of major interest to me. I'm trying to pick up the bulk, and not the finer points at this time, so perhaps I'll start becoming more edumacated.



boar_d_laze said:


> When I make demi, which is pretty rare, I usually make it the old fashioned way, going through Espagnole. My versions of both owe a lot to Pellaprat. I've already posted a recipe, adapted for the home kitchen, on CT. If it will make your life easier, there's a printer friendly version on my blog.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

LOL.

_*Mounting*_ is _monter au beurre_, something I probably had in recipes all over CT at the time I posted the _Espagnole/Demi _thing here. It's probably described in a few recipes on CFG, but if it isn't it deserves it's own special blurb. It's one of the fundamental techinques of saucing.

What you do, is cut up your butter into smallish pieces and, ideally set them aside and hold very cold in the freezer or fridge, until ready to use, and you don't start mounting until the sauce is already otherwise finished.

Turn the heat down to low, and whisk in a couple of pieces until they're about half way melted. Add one more piece, whisk, and continue adding one more piece at a time when the preceding piece is half incorporated. When the sauce starts to develop (extra) body and sheen, take it off the heat and whisk in one or two more pieces.

*Nappe* is a consistency. It's a goal of reduction or cooking down. Dip a wooden or metal spoon into the sauce and remove it. If the sauce coats the back of the spoon, it's ready for the nappe test. Draw a band horizontally across the back with your finger tip. If the sauce drips into the band right away, it's not ready. If the band stays clean for 20 seconds or so, you're good to go. It takes a slightly tighter sauce to nappe a metal spoon than a wooden one.

If there are things you think should be on the blog or in one of my recipes here, tell me.

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Gobblygook, do not let yourself get intimidated. French is just English pronounced badly. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif

Seriously, there are a number of factors at work here. First off, on this particular thread, classic French cookery is a prerequisite only because it's dealing with a subject that all but defines the genre. But, in general, unless you decide to get more involved in classic French (and, to a lesser degree, Italian) cuisine, there is no need for you to learn about 90% of it.

The fact is, classic French cooking is a straightjacket that held cooks in bondage for near on a century. Nobody says you have to wear that straightjacket.

There is nothing wrong with "cook it down until thickened." And the only butter any of my neighbors ever mounted was an old mare named buttercup.

Next, what's important, if you want to become a better cook, is that you understand techniques. The whole secret of good cooking is using good techniques to manipulate good ingredents to a desired goal. If you understand the technique, it almost doesn't matter what you call it. Certainly, for the sake of clear communication, there are a number of "universal" words and phrases. Things like "saute," which everybody understands. But for every such word or phrase there are ten or a dozen that are obscure, arcane, and, in practical terms, meaningless to a home cook. So you shouldn't let them throw you.

For example. The dairy-based mother sauce in French cooking is called a bechamel. If you learned to make the exact same thing from _The Settlement Cookbook_, or from Betty Crocker, or, to put a southern point on it, from Edna Lewis, it would be called a basic white sauce. In French cooking you use that mother sauce either directly, or to create another sauce. If you add cheese to it, for instance, the daughter is called a mornay. In Kentucky they'd call it a cheese sauce. Take your pick.

At base, what I'm saying, is that it's easy, from reading blogs and belonging to communities like this, that classic French cooking is terribly important. But the reality is, it bears little resemblence to most modern cooking, particularly American cooking. So you either learn it or not, as you wish. But please don't think you can't develop as a cook without it, because you certainly can. Most of the world does not cook classic French---including a good percentage of French cooks.


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## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

BDL, sorry, I was making fun of your words.  I understand what both meant (well, "mounting", I gathered by context).  Nappe is the new "buzzword" on the cooking channels it seems.  Every show has to demonstrate nappe.  It's like the modern-day "zoning" of sanitation (raw, cooked, etc).  However, what bugs the SNOT out of me is watching these shows where they are getting pinches of salt and pepper from their mise en place dishes, touching the raw meat (such as flipping it), and grabbing more from the same dish.  Sure, on their show, they're just going to waste the rest of the little dish, but I hope cheap home cooks understand that and don't try to recycle the now contaminated ingredients back into the mother container.

For "mounting", they usually refer to it as "finishing" the sauce.  However, your explanation of WHAT the heck they're doing that makes it "finished" is helpful.  Otherwise, I was just going by the rule "butter makes it better".  If only you could butter bacon.... 

KY, the problem with not knowing all the different phrases is that I can get lost and not follow along with the discussion, which ruins the whole point for me.  My biggest problem right now is that I'm a talking sponge, which unfortunately is how I learn.  The adage that you can't listen with your mouth open is certainly correct, and I try to control myself (and fail).


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

BDL

You've never put bird heads in a stock pot?  Would baby cow feet be off limits too?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Coup de feu,

You asked,


> _You've never put bird heads in a stock pot? Would baby cow feet be off limits too?_


Stock pot? I thought you were talking about sauce pans when you wrote,


> _For the most part, sauces use up scraps that are full of flavor and neutrients but that people don't want to eat - like bird heads and veggie peels. _


And, it was to what you wrote that I responded.

Don't confuse me with a 12 year old girl, I'm not squeamish. I buy freshly slaughtered chicken from live suppliers and use necks, feet, and combs, as well as the carcass, wingtips, and knuckles for stock, but not heads. There's no need to make a list of the weird food I've tried and like, but take my word for it, there isn't much that wouldn't be on it. I made a deal with myself 40 something years ago that I wouldn't be deterred from trying something just because some people might think it gross.

In this country we usually don't refer to veals and calves as "baby cows." Cute though. I've cooked calves feet for sherried jelly, but since I don't see them often, feel they're too rare and wonderful for stock. But if they were more available, into the stock pot they'd go.

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_ the problem with not knowing all the different phrases is that I can get lost and not follow along with the discussion,_

I understand that fully. But it's a rare discussion that uses many of those more obscure terms. This happens to be one of them. And, as you can see from the posts, there's quite a bit of disagreement as to what some of them mean, anyway. Among the things professionals on this thread disagree about: Exactly what a mother sauce is (and that's something, btw, about which there should be no confusion); how many of them there are; how some of them are made; what some of the derivative (i.e., daughter) sauces are, and how they're made.

On one hand it's kind of amusing. If you want the straight skinny, you just read Carame and Escoffier. They're the ones who codified this stuff in the first place. As you can see, however, there are a lot of people who _think _they know what is meant by the various terms, but who actually do not. The unamusing part is that it just confuses people, such as yourself, who really want to understand.

BTW, aAlthough he and I fight about a great many things: In general, if there is a disagreement about what a term for something is, or about what a classic term specifically means, go with BDL. It's rare that he doesn't have the straight skinny.

Keep in mind that there are comparatively few times when more than one or two of these terms will be used in a conversation, because only a handful of CT members are classically trained. In a more normal thread, if a term comes up that you don't understand, just ask. Nobody will think the less of you. And it's a lot easier to absorb them in bits and pieces than in a tidal wave. You'll also discover which are the common terms that everybody understands, and which ones are obscure. Pretty soon you'll be using the more common ones with confidence.

To be sure, there are a few members who toss those terms around with abandon, just to show off how knowledgeable they are. But you'll quickly learn to recognize those snobs, and ignore them like the rest of us do.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Too good for stock.


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## lil momma (Sep 5, 2011)

Hello chef, i need to know if you could help me, i need to write a paper on the chefs that still uses the mother sauces bechamel, espagnole, veloute, tomate, and hollandaise. what resturant they work in and whats the recipe the sauces are used in. do you think you could help me out?


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Never mind.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Um, IceMan,

I had to read it twice, however, I believe the request is for chefs who use the mother sauces, not so much what they are, BTA, WTHDIK



IceMan said:


> Here, this is a nice page. It took me maybe 30-seconds to find. As an elementary school teacher, I wish students were taught better research skills.
> 
> http://lynnescountrykitchen.net/sauc/mothersauces.html


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## khuggs (Jan 30, 2012)

i need help with finding a resturant that uses mother sauces


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## chefed (Jan 30, 2012)

Edit: Already mentioned above, but welcome to cheftalk.

Thank you.


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## pickimba (Sep 20, 2011)

Try Fleur de Lys in San Francisco, Water Grille in Los Angeles.


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## chef oliver (Dec 28, 2011)

Every restaurant what is called PROFESSIONAL must use mother sauces. Because they are base for infitive number of another sauces...


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I disagree.  It is possible to have a great menu without mother sauces.  I'm pretty sure Alinea does it without mother sauces.


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## benway (May 24, 2009)

kuan said:


> I disagree. It is possible to have a great menu without mother sauces. I'm pretty sure Alinea does it without mother sauces.


I was lucky enough to spend some time back there. Never saw a mother sauce.


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## dpeitzsche (Jan 28, 2012)

I work in Edmonton Alberta Canada and yes all of our sauces and dressing are made from the mother sauces from scratch.  The name of the establishment is the Chateau Louis Hotel.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

WHERE i WORK PART TIME WE USE THEM  ALL PLUS WE MAKE REAL CHICKEN, VEAL AND LAMBSTOCK. nO BASES ALLOWED, AS WELL AS GLACE DIVIAN AND COURT BOULLIONS, REDUCTIONS  ETC. ALL CLASSIC STYLES  BUT THEN AGAIN ALL OUR MEMBERS ARE MILLIONAIRES. WE ARE NOT A N APPLEBEE OR EVEN A LOCAL REST. WE OPERATE 5 RESTAURANTS PLUS BANQUET IN 1 FACILITY. LIKE A CRUISE SHIP


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## eloki (Apr 3, 2006)

So...  What was the original question?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

eloki said:


> So... What was the original question?


Heh heh.  It's all good.


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