# Methylcellulose - how much to use



## focus (May 8, 2008)

I got whacky today and ordered 4 oz of this stuff purely for experimental purposes. My facilities are quite primative - pretty much some chilled bottled water to mix it up in and a microwave and a bowl to heat it up to "firming temp."

I bought from willpowder.net - the variety that forms a "Very firm gel forms at 38 - 44 degrees C." I can guestimate the amount of time it will need in the microwave to come up to temp. The thing I don't know is how much product to use for a 500 ml bottle of water. I assume more powder, thicker gelled consistency. Anybody have a rule of thumb for me to start with?

For now, I'm just mixing it in water to play around with - I have no other ingredients that I'd want to make "hot jello" with. I just want to play around with the stuff and create the effect of "melting" as it cools.

Focus


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

What is methylcellulose and how does it relate to food? What's it used for?

scb


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## mezzaluna (Aug 29, 2000)

Is that what they make "caviar" out of? I've seen it on Iron Chef.


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## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

I think the caviar chemical is sodium alginate IIRC.

No idea about using methylcellulose when cooking. It seems to be made by mixing cellulose with drano and chloromethane.

What's crazy about the stuff, from what I'm reading, is that it acts like the opposite of oil/fat, where it melts when cold and gels up when hot.

It also makes you fart!

It's a legal food additive in the EU, check out E461

I probably share the same unspoken feelings on cooking with these kinds of things as shel, but my opinion wasn't asked for, so I'll keep quiet for now.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Theres a lot of chefs working with hydro-collides and the like. I have yet to take the big leap, although I love to cook sous vide.Anyway a local chef is doing some pretty cool stuff and wanted to share his website with you all.

His name is Noel Jones.

Welcome to the restaurant ON20 - sensuous food, passionately prepared


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

So, to summarize:
- It gels when warmed and "melts" when cooled
- It gives you gas
- at least some people are now freaked out b/c they think it's toxic
- The crack team of scientists at nac.allergyforum.com let us know that sulfuric acid is "not permitted in Australia;" apparently everywhere else uses it like salt
- We have a shameless - but unhelpful - plug for a resturant (although it did go into my favorites for when I move to New England this fall)
- and I still have no answer to my question

Anyone have anything constructive to add this time?


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

Good way to garner support.


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## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

Focus does have a point. He/she asked a specific question and hasn't really received a helpful answer yet.

Maybe the Koreans can help.

_"...Add 1.0 g of Methyl Cellulose to 100 ml of water at about 70°. Stir well, cool while shaking. and allow to stand in a cold place until it becomes a uniformly pasty solution. Use this solution as the test solution..."_

I'm sticking with the excuse that I was responding to Shel's question.

Australia? Why bring that up? Do you live there?


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Actually, I just asked a question and wasn't intending to express any feelings about using the stuff. I never heard of methylcellulos ....

However, knowing my preference for simple, natural foods and preparations, it's understandable that you might think that I was expressing some negative feelings about the product ...

shel


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Is this a druggy site? first "meth" then "crack", then "acid". What's going on?
anyway, something called methylcellulose hardly sounds edible or safe. Maybe i'm just old fashioned.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

more seriously, where do you get the idea that "everywhere else" people eat sulphuric acid. Not here, for sure.


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

It was a bit of a jab at the source material - as was the reference to sulfuric acid. If that site was all you had to go on, you'd think this stuff was some kind of poison and all you'd know about sulfuric acid was that it was banned as a food additive in Australia. I see my attempt at dry humor (and my frustration at not getting an answer) was lost.

It is edible (although it's not digested). It is safe - at least in quantities you'd get in the occasional experimental food preparation. It's not "simple, natural, or old fashioned" but that's exactly the point of using it - to create a remarkably different eating experience.

Thanks much to OahuAmateurChef for finding a starting point for my mad science...


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

HAH nice, gave me a good laugh:lol:

I'd like to try smoking some methylcellulose. Where can I get some?


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I didn;t see any site so i don;t know any more than i read here. Maybe my own humor was being lost. 
Anyway, it seems to me (as an old fashioned person) that food is supposed to be digestible. And additives, it appears, are only considered "safe" until shown to be dangerous. But additives aren't people (who have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty) and how many food additives (or other stuff) do you know that have been thought safe until later they were found to be cancerogenous or whatever? 
You may be too young to remember when children's shoe stores had xray machines right in the store- you would stand with the new shoes on with your feet under the x-ray device and look in at the screen on top and see if the shoes fit. You could actually see the bones. Imagine. It was thought safe! I loved it, it was fun. It was part of the 50s' belief in the total and utter goodness of technology. 
I don;t know chemistry enough to remember the long list of ingredients that have been banned over the years after being used profusely in the production of food.


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

It's apparently already in a lot of the food you already eat - ice cream being one. It's also a bit of a rage among "molecular gastronomists" for the weird effect of becoming firm when heated and "melting" when it cools. It also helps make warm foams. I'm no professional, but I do enjoy experimenting in the kitchen and think it would be cool to do some kind of gimick for a dinner guest.

It's not digestable in the same way that cellulose from the plants we eat is not digestable - so it's not something that's totally foreign to the body. In fact, I'm pretty sure it just passes right through. Sure, there could be some ill effects 50 yeears from now, but I'm going to roll the bones and guess that some occasional experimentation isn't going to kill me too soon.

Focus


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

It's not in the ice cream I eat, nor is it in any of the food I eat.

scb


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

excuse the **** out of me. didn't mean to offend your purist sensitivities. I bet it's in your toothpaste, though.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

You've not offended my sensitivities. I was just responding to your broad based comment. There's no need for sarcasm or rude language.

Methylcellulose is not in the toothpaste I use. 

scb


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## blueicus (Mar 16, 2005)

Many traditional and ancient foods have long used chemistry to make things happen. They simply didn't know what exactly caused it. Cooking corn in calcium hydroxide (lime rock, not lime fruit) or many other bases allowed native americans to achieve a balanced diet eating a primarily corn-based diet (note that when corn migrated across the Atlantic people who started eating corn-dominated diets suffered malnutrition because they didn't know about nixtamalization).

Granted, methylcellulose isn't the same thing as calcium hydroxide... but they can both sound scary and they're both additives, no?


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Methylcellulose is a man-made chemical, and while it's probably safe, we've seen over the years that many of man's creations have caused health and environmental problems. Of course, eating some natural things may not be healthy, but that's a different situation IMO.

shel


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

simply stunning. I wasn't looking for a debate over it. and I don't especially care what everyone's opinion is. I'm truly sorry I asked.

Is it just me or is this site really pretentious and uptight?


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

BTW, if all this crazy chemistry talk has freaked anyone out, check your lables:

Add methyl cellulose for healthy battered food "Methyl cellulose is amongst the most frequently used hydrocolloids by the food industry."

Chicago Personal Trainer Explains Common Food Ingredients and Additives "It is used as a thickener in many jams, jellies, and pie fillings"

It seems to be safe: Clean safety profile for HPMC as a food ingredient "A safety assessment of the widely used hydrocolloid hydroxypropyl methylcellulose (HPMC) has shown that everyday intake is well below any level that may cause safety concerns."

It may even be good for you: Hydrocolloids' health benefits extended

But it may not be explicitly labled: Clean safety profile for HPMC as a food ingredient "HPMC, also authorised to be labelled as carbohydrate gum in the US,"

And foodfacts.com lists 135 common products containing it including:
Burger King Chicken Whopper Sandwich 
Breyers Carb Smart Vanilla Ice Cream Cone
Green Giant Broccoli & Cheese Giant Bites 
Loads of hot pockets
Morning Star Farms Breaded Broccoli Cheddar Veggie Bites 
Progresso Roasted Potato Garic Chowder Pizza rolls

This is by no means an all-inclusive list but it looks like it's in a ton of stuff.

Edit: I should say at this point that - apart from a 16 hr marathon work session during which I will eat the occasional hot pocket - noting on the above list appeals to me in any way. The evidence would just suggest that this particular synthetic ingredient is in more stuff than we realize.

It like ninja - it everywhere. Be afraid, be very afraid...

Again, I'm willing to roll the bones. If eating processed food shortens my life by 2 years and I only make it to 84 (men in my family live a long time), oh well. At least it tasted good.

Focus


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## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

I agree. You asked a particular question about an ingredient that happens to not be man made. I would definitely say you received pretentious and uptight responses.

Of these you consider pretentious and uptight, we are only talking about 3 or 4 members that have posted on this thread, out of many hundreds of forum members. We three or four have a great passion about what kinds of ingredients are appropriate and inappropriate to cook with. I admit I'm one of them!

I'd like to say that we have almost no posts about cooking with synthetic ingredients for at least several months, probably much longer.

To sum it up:
I think a more accurate way to word the statement would be, "Is is me or are the recently most active forum members pretentious and uptight about cooking with man-made ingredients?"

In this case I'd say, yes! Guilty!:suprise:


How about we respect your original question and keep those kinds of comments out of this thread?


I am eager for a debate about this! Perhaps we can start a new thread?


Anyways, have you been able to test methylcellulose much since your first post?

Have you had sucess?


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## oahuamateurchef (Nov 23, 2006)

Your above post is great debate material. 

I have a lot to say.
Won't touch it here. 

Need a new thread.


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

Well put OAC, I think I understand a little better. The other message board I spend a lot of time on is one for homebrewers. They're serious about being very laid back - so that's where I'm coming from.

This probably is a good subject for a debate amongst the chefs and foodies here - I just wouldn't participate. I have no strong feelings either way. These synthetic ingredients are what they are. If you like using them, fine. If not, fine. I'm not worried about them killing me either next week (unlikely) or pretty much any time after age 75 (more likely, but not troubling - how long does anyone want to live anyway?)

Regarding the stuff in question: I've only just ordered it and hope it gets here soon. I'll post my experimental results when I have some for anyone that does care.

Focus


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Wow, what great things to eat! Is that supposed to be evidence that it's ok? All you've shown is that it seems to be a product essential to the junk food industry. Even *you* don;t like eating these things you say. So what's your point?


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

my point is no more or less than that it's common.

Remember, I'm not here to debate about it or convince anyone anything about it.


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

I'd be very surprised if the initiator of this thread didn't know full well that methylcellulose is the base ingredient for Citrucel, a very widely used laxative. It's been a very cruel gag ingredient in many a fraternity pledge party. It's also the key ingredient in most water based personal lubricants, i.e. K-Y Jelly.

Someone wrote: "It makes you fart." It does far more than that and shouldn't be used to play with someone's food. If someone with a severe disgestive disorder were to be subjected to ingestion of methylcellulose, even if no malice were intended, and they became ill, it is by definition felony battery.


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Let me preface my comment and question by saying that I agree with you, and also that I'm surprised by the uses you mention. Of course, being a skeptic, I'll look further into your assertions with the intention of learning more about this and similar chemicals and how they're used.

Assuming that you're correct, and that methylcellulose can cause severe problems to those ingesting it, how can its use in these products, as posted by Focus, be explained:


> _Burger King Chicken Whopper Sandwich
> Breyers Carb Smart Vanilla Ice Cream Cone
> Green Giant Broccoli & Cheese Giant Bites
> Loads of hot pockets
> ...


Would the major corporations that produce these products risk the potential problems that you suggest ...?

scb


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

And I'd _*strongly *_disagree with you.

scb


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

They would if they could get away with it. No doubt, it has some function in the production of junk food and like with coloring that various times has been implicated in cancer (and it's not like we need coloring in our food, right?) and with saccharine, it gets approved in small quantites so the corporations can make cheap junk food. Is that a surprise?


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## shel (Dec 20, 2006)

Well, without yellow dye how else would we get pickles that glow in the dark? :lol: I was stunned to discover Vlasic pickles, a major brand here, contained yellow dye - sheesh!

What surprises me is that I'm always surprised by what I find in our commercial "food products." I can't believe the garbage most Americans ingest as a matter of course! 

scb


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

Yep, I was aware of the other uses which is why I'm going to experiment on myself first (I have a titanium stomach). I'm no chemist, but I believe the term for this is a "hydrophyllic" compound meaning that after you disolve it in cold water, it takes a little time for it to fully combine with the water molecules. As I understand, the laxitive properties are effective if you disolve it in cold water, drink it, and it then gels as it warms up and "hydrates" in your system. Being a celluloid compound (derived from plant cellulose that's not digestable), it acts to "move things along."

Among the "molecular gastronomists" (which I am not, BTW, I'm just a foodie who watches too much Iron Chef), I understand that you disolve it in cold water and let it sit overnight in the fridge. It will "thicken" the water as it fully hydrates. Then, when you warm it up it gels to a jello-like consistency. Voila, "hot jello." Apparently, it's quite the rage to try to make "hot ice cream." Even weirder, it melts as it cools down. 

Inspired by an episode of Dinner Impossible (the one with the Vegas magicians), I've got an idea to have a dinner party where everything looks like one thing, but tastes like something else. In that episode, Irvine made a "chocolate cake" that was essentially a high-end meatloaf and a "hot dog" that was actually desert (ice cream hot dog, jello tomatoes, shredded mango sherbert for cheese, cake for the bun). Like I have said, while I like "simple, natural, old fashioned" food and have nothing against those that eat a "purist" diet, what I'm going for here is the unique, bizzare, and innovative.

That being said, and in light of the tacit accusation by RSteve, let me document something publicly: I do not intend to "sneak" this in on anyone - period. I'm just a home cook and I know my house guests well enough not to give this or anything else to anyone who might reasonably expect to have an adverse reaction. I say again, I am not going to be anything but transparent with my friends that I feed.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

The way you put it now makes a lot more sense. I can understand the occasional food for fun idea. I've seen ice cream spaghetti (put vanilla ice cream through a potato ricer, strawberries on top and coconut parmigiano) - though i;ve never been attracted to it, guided as i am by taste (i prefer chocolate ice cream, don;t like coconut, etc). 

Still, we've been bombarded with chemical food "enhancers" by the industries who are not AT ALL concerned with good quality food, or nutrition or health or anything else and unless the laws block them will poison people if it can make them rich, so that there are kids who drink diet soft drinks so regularly that fruit juice tastes bland and water is unheard of. And adults who can't seem to taste the horrendous after-taste of saccharine and aspartame or notice the weird taste of synthetic fats and the way they leave your tongue coated. 

So while you may consider me defensively purist I am pretty disturbed by this trend to make food a chemistry project rather than a more simple and direct taste-guided affair. But i guarantee you i'm no health freak - and i do ignore the fads in the other direction too, i salt my food abundantly (and have low blood pressure) i drink plenty of coffee, i use white sugar in it, and i always had lots of cheese, butter and animal fats, (and have low cholesterol). I moved to italy in the 70s, and when i left i ate all kind of processed junk - i loved commercial oatmeal bread, cookies, etc - things with an ingredient list that stretches the length of the packaging. I came here, and found simple food. I had to learn to make the things i loved back home, and now having had my own versions, i can taste all the chemical junk in the ones i used to like.

My various returns for visits to the States showed me one fad after another - one year i asked for salt and people were horrified (salt is bad for you - not the 20 other ingrients in the bread they ate, just the salt, not the saccharine they fed their kids in the half-gallon bottles of diet soft drinks, just salt). On another trip i asked for sugar for my coffee and they looked at me like i had asked for muriatic acid. Another time it was butter, heaven forfend, we eat margarine, no butter. 

Anyway, my gut reaction is to wince when i hear complicated chemicals being added to food.


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## focus (May 8, 2008)

I heartily agree with you siduri on the issue of salt, butter, etc. For the most part, I use "the real stuff" or nothing at all and would rather have something fried in lard if I could get it although I give the waist a break and use the healthiest stuff I can find if I'm on a frying rampage at home. I don't touch diet cokes - not for the aspertame (although that's A, not THE reason) but because they don't taste good. I drink the fully leaded version or none at all. If I don't want to be fat, I don't eat a ton of fried food or a lot of sugar.

Thanks for the spaghetti ice cream idea. I'll put that one in the bank for future use.

Focus


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## chef bo (Jun 8, 2011)

That would be about 2 g of meth to 100 g of liquid sir. :


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Commercially prepared food today does not require any cooking instruction to prepare . It requires a minor in chemistry and tecnology. Manufacturers  will use anything to exdend shelf life and bring cost of product lower at anyones expense. On many occassions a product is introduced and is half way good only to be reformulated some monthes down the line . Ex. Stove top stuffing supermarket one and commercial has been changed God knows how many times. I believe one of the biggest offenders is Kraft  almost everything they used to make was good . Now the store brands are equal or better. There cream cheese has more water in it everytime I buy it. Now I buy Walmart I feel its better and cost less. I d not mind paying for quality but when offered junk I go elsewhere. If you notice all their shredded cheeses now contain cream cheese. This gives it the ability to hold more water and therefore added weight . So there is less mozzerella in the mozzerella and less cheddar in the cheddar varieties..  The fact that they add the cream cheese is hyped as new better tasting , richer ?Only in America !!  I call it ripoff


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## 54ndii (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm in Australia and apart from online it's not a product I'm able to find.. Any ideas??


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