# What Is The Best Style Knife for Doing this? .............................



## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I see the subject come up in many threads,  What knife is best for this, or that etc.

Most recently it was "what do you use your slicer for", and it got me to thinking that a lot of people use a different knife for a different task, and even more people may not really be sure what may be the better knife to use.

So post it up!

Let us know what you use your sujihiki, gyuto, santuko, petty, yanagi, deba, and any and all of the others for.

The reverse is fine also in that what knife do you prefer to use for slicing, chopping, mincing, opening packages, and everything else.

I remember a member once questioned why I had used a smaller knife to slice chicken breast into 1/8" thick pieces, and found that my use of a petty to cover for the western type slicer I no longer had (yea sold off all those Germans to get another couple J knives lol) was not the best choice even though it was super thin and sharp (prob could be ok if longer though) and have been using a 240mm gyuto most times ever since.

This will also be a good place to discuss if you can expect to make good use of your next intended purchase, or if it will just be a bunch of money in a knife block.

I am going to start off with what do you believe to be a good choice for slicing.


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## butzy (Jan 8, 2010)

I like the idea of this thread.

I am/have been contemplating buying a slicer/carving knife/sujihike, but don't know if I actually need it or will use it enough to warrant the expense.

I use a chef's knife for everything. Slicing bread, peeling and chopping onions, trimming meat, peeling apples, chopping up lemongrass and garlic etc etc.

I just use a more sturdy one (stainless steel no make and/or global) for the tougher work and my Carbonext for everything else.


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## chef the sun (Nov 30, 2011)

i use my butchers knife for most thing from skinning fish to fine dice onions, but there is times when doing fish such as filleting and skinning of salmon when you have to use the right knife for the job.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's a matter of taste, really.  Sometimes even a matter of whim.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

butzy said:


> I like the idea of this thread.
> 
> I am/have been contemplating buying a slicer/carving knife/sujihike, but don't know if I actually need it or will use it enough to warrant the expense.
> 
> ...


Interesting the first reply here involves a slicer since another discussion on slicers is what prompted me to start this thread. I also share your concern over if it is actually needed, but also can see the benefits as well.

Curious if you have considered adding a serrated bread knife?

I actually find the ones I have very helpful.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> It's a matter of taste, really. Sometimes even a matter of whim.
> 
> BDL


"whimsical" knife choices 

I can fully understand that, and with my use being non professional for so long I find myself just trying different knives for different things as some sort of test to see how things can be different.

A point I forgot to make in the first post was how it seems some people (mostly those cooking at home, or with smaller hands) seem to lean towards shorter knives, and really meant to start a discussion on if this is better left alone, or if it is really worth it to try and help people change habits, or improve etc.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

chef the sun said:


> i use my butchers knife for most thing from skinning fish to fine dice onions, but there is times when doing fish such as filleting and skinning of salmon when you have to use the right knife for the job.


Since you mention fish I used to have a flexible filleting knife that I used most every time I was doing flounder filets. I no longer have it, and had not noticed it was missing as I find myself reaching for a petty or gyutofor this type of stuff now.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I have carbon steel slicers 12 to 14 inch. I do however like the serrated slicers of today. I have a flex boner and a stiff one to. A 10 inch french knife, and a lot of specialty decorating knives and tools I purchased abroad. Its all what you are used to and feel comfortable with.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

A lot of this boils down to what you are comfortable with.

There's no question that certain knife designs are more efficient for certain tasks. I would say that most of us on these boards have a collection of knives for that very reason. But if you're not comfortable using, say, a boning knife, then it doesn't matter that objectively it's best for that purpose. You'll reach for something else.

Fabricating fish is a good example. Personally, I can't imagine using a chef's knife to filet a fish. But I see others do it all the time. That doesn't make me right and them wrong. Similarly, Friend Wife uses a 4" utility knife when I reach for a chef's knife or a slicer to do the same job.

And, when all is said and done, just watch Morimoto turn a section of daikon into paper with an 18" knife. Then ask yourself if a selection of styles is really needed.

_Curious if you have considered adding a serrated bread knife?_

I used to think a serrated bread knife was an affectation......until I started using one. Now I don't cut bread with anything else.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> A lot of this boils down to what you are comfortable with.


I have to agree 100%, but also know many of us have become comfortable with things for what may not be the best reasons (how we learned, what we had, what was heard etc) and also since there are so many people reading the forums looking for information who may not have enough experience to even have a comfort zone yet.

In another thread there was a discussion (I think it was here lol) about suggestions for which knives to use from slaughter to plate. There was some great information on all kinds of different knives, styles and uses.

The idea was really to get as much of the great ideas and opinions from the various members onto one easily searchable thread so that it wouldn't be so scattered around etc.

Just from reading some of the posts from members who are new or newer to cooking in general you can see there is a desire for ideas and suggestions that can help others improve, and very honestly seeing some of the differing opinions and debates really can get one to thinking


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I use a 300mm yanagiba for slicing meats that don't have a crust.

I use a 195mm yanagiba for slicing meats that do.

I use a 210mm deba for fabricating large fish, cutting very hard vegetables, shearing bone, and mincing.

I use a 105mm deba for fabricating small fish and occasionally other teeny-tiny jobs.

I use a 210mm usuba for all other vegetables.

I use a mediocre serrated bread knife for crusty loaves.

Sometimes I use other things that come to hand, but not much.

It's not just what you're used to. I had never used any of these sorts of knives (except the bread knife) before Fall of 2008. It was a conscious decision, that took considerable time and effort, to make this transition. I've never been sorry I made it, but I have also pretty steadfastly advised others not to go this route, because it is unquestionably a PITA and you have to be willing to suffer quite a bit in the process: you get hit hard in the wallet, and an usuba is a constant trial for a very long time, and so on.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Chris I notice the obvious omission of a gyuto, and was wondering if you thought the deba and usuba were better or just different ways of going about getting to the same results, and if you could why?

Also if you could expand more on the two different length yanagiba etc.

I do find it very interesting how so many find their way to using so very different knives for similar purpose.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I use Globe knives  a soft boneing, stiff boneing, 10  inch french and a 12 inh slicer as well as paring knife. These plus my trusty chinese clever knife do everything. No 150.00 or $200. or ceramics or japanese or chinese,knives needed or wanted.No fads. No plastic or wood handles.(they mold) Save your $$. Just keep them clean and extremely sharp. Make scabbards for each if possible to protect edges. Buy and use a good steel. I have had this set 20 years. Looks brand new.

PS.

A girl in work came in with a PINK  8 inch french knife(t comes in assorted colors) she paid 12,95 at Target. I tried it and was surprised it cut great, had a good feel and good weight. For 12.95 they are almost deemed disposable. I think it had a japan type name on it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Not to demand too much ideological purity but Global knives ARE _Japanese_ AND _the larger ones go for $150 and up_. Furthermore, Yoshikin (who makes Global) along with Kai (Shun) were the manufacturers who led the Japanese invasion into Western kitchens' and the Globals were cutting edge back in the day.

They're perfectly adequate and very sturdy, but they're an idea whose time has past -- especially in terms of their alloy's (Chromova 18) get sharp/stay sharp qualities, but they're also thicker than the modern trend. A LOT of people don't care for their handles, which can be both slippery and uncomfortable in a strong grip.

The thing about knives... as long as they're sharp, roughly the right length, and strong enough for the task most of the other distinctions don't matter too much. Sharp, sharp, sharp.

Just sayin'

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

When I first read that I thought be wrote Global as well but then noticed it said Globe which I know nothing about but would be interested to know more etc.

Also until recently my four mainly used J Knives had a total cost of around $150 and will say once again that this amount was less than the retail value of the previous Henckels pro s they replaced.

I am so much happier with them it almost doesn't matter.

I won't comment too much on this years addition a Konosuke HD 240mm gyuto as I am still getting used to it but it was more than all the others combined.

Point is that even though there are many inexpensive ways to reach the end result desired (I have a odd cheap parer that is of obvious poor quality from China that somehow has managed to avoid the garbage but also can get really sharp, has its place etc, but really is a POS)


This doesn't mean it is in any way comparable to my Tojiro 120mm petty, and even with comparing $29 to free the Tojiro is IMHO a superior value.

We will see what I think of the comparison between the Tojiro and Fujiwara FKM to the new Konosuke HD soon as I get some more time and a chance to sharpen the new one etc but this will be a tougher decision than the first comparison.

I guess best to use what your comfortable with both in use and cost, but be aware of what else is out there so you can make a personal decision etc.


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## chefjpauley (Jan 18, 2012)

Different styles of knives are made for a reason, if you are just starting out I would suggest using the correct knife for the job. I used a Chinese chef knife for everything for 5 years and it was difficult to use anything else for a long time after. I still have to use heavy knives and I am sure it negatively effects my product (not to say my knife skills are bad) but I know I shouldn't use my slicer on a 1# trout.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

chefjpauley said:


> Different styles of knives are made for a reason, if you are just starting out I would suggest using the correct knife for the job. I used a Chinese chef knife for everything for 5 years and it was difficult to use anything else for a long time after. I still have to use heavy knives and I am sure it negatively effects my product (not to say my knife skills are bad) but I know I shouldn't use my slicer on a 1# trout.


Using the correct knife for the job, and figuring out what that may be etc was the intent behind when I started the thread. I also agree there may be more importance to this for someone who is new, learning and improving skills (this includes those cooking professionally, and especially should include some of the cooks who made some of the plate's I have been served recently lol) , but also difficult to determine for many once they begin their journey into J knives.

Just from personal experience combined with what I have read from other J knife "noobs" posting on various forums there is a whole new learning curve due to the vastly different variety of products.

I do share in some of these thoughts and see them all the time sujihiki v/s yanagiba, or what is a debate best used for etc etc.

There are just so many different types of kitchen Knives and once you get to the Japanese who use so many different knives and styles that most Americans both do not know of but many also find interesting or even intriguing.

But the info is spread around hidden in between all kinds of non related static.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

I like this thread idea. Gret way for people to think outside their usual boxes or to show off great ideas. 

Personally, I use a 9" Chef for anything big or extended (time wise) and a 6" utility for most quick small jobs (eg grabbing a slice of lime). Parer for smaller finer jobs (not often) and a 10" slicer whenever I'm slicing a roast or turkey.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

BDL The knives I have are not Global Brand, they are Globe and are over 20 years old. Lucky if I paid 150.00 for all of them. I am familiar with Global . If I am not mistaken they are all silver colored from tip to the  handle which is also metal. Mine ? I don't know where they were made but they are like razors.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I'll bite. "Globe" isn't a familiar kitchen knife brand to me. 

Where were you knives made?
Who's Globe?
Are they the same company who makes the slicers?
Or are they some other maker?
Do they still make kitchen knives?
If so, how much are they now?
Where can I find them sold and/or advertised?
Do you have pictures?
How do you sharpen?
BDL


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

I was told they were made in Canada , although are not labeled as such I purchased them from a Sous Chef at work in NY about 20 years ago. It can't be te slicer co. because they are in US. I really dont know if they are in business anymore. All I know is they hold a good edge and are I feel worth what I paid average about $20.00 a knife. Chinese cleaver I replace about every 5 years last one costme 22. in a chinese type bodega. This time I bought a 1 piece  clever, all steel so far its good.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

LennyD said:


> 1. Chris I notice the obvious omission of a gyuto, and was wondering if you thought the deba and usuba were better or just different ways of going about getting to the same results, and if you could why?
> 
> 2. Also if you could expand more on the two different length yanagiba etc.
> 
> I do find it very interesting how so many find their way to using so very different knives for similar purpose.


I should perhaps note that the big yanagiba is a pretty high-end thing, the short one not so much. The big deba is good, the small exceptional. The usuba is solid professional stuff. That has to be factored into my choices, to be honest.

1. The omission of a gyuto: I actually own a Masamoto 270mm KS wa-gyuto, which is pretty much a Ferrari sort of gyuto, and I admit that at times I miss it. My wife got for Christmas a Masamoto 210mm VG gyuto, which I have sharpened and is quite wonderful.

The thing is, a gyuto, like a Chinese cleaver and an usuba, is what I call an "anchor knife." It's the knife that is the workhorse of a kitchen. You only need one anchor. Having decided on one, other knives must be purchased to fill in the gaps in what the anchor can't do or doesn't do well. Since I've made a shift to an usuba, a gyuto becomes sort of a third wheel on the bicycle.

An obvious case in point is the relationship between a gyuto or usuba and a deba. If you use an usuba, you need a deba for two reasons: first, to break down fish; second, to mince things -- anything! -- finely. An usuba doesn't mince well, though probably with superlative technique you could get away with it in a pinch. Now if you use your deba to mince, you need a rather long blade, because the back third of the blade with be back-beveled for the mincing jobs, so you find that Japanese pros who use usuba (e.g., kaiseki chefs) gravitate toward deba in the 210-225mm range. If you use a gyuto, it's a quite good mincer, so why would you reach for something else when it's so quick and convenient to use the knife in your hand? So your deba only needs to break fish, so you don't need that back third, and you find that a number of pros who use gyuto rely on deba in the 180mm range.

My experience is that an usuba is a quite extraordinary knife for home cooks once you get over the initial (extremely high and tedious) hurdle of just dealing with the bugger in the first place. For the pro, however, you have additional problems: it's not like other knives, and chips as soon as you look at it crosswise, so if you can't absolutely trust your coworkers it won't work; and it takes a long time to get decent with the knife but a VERY long time to get both good and fast -- and in a pro environment you must be both.

But having made the shift, what do I need a gyuto for? I am not ditching the Masamoto yet, of course, but I haven't quite decided about long-term plans.

2. The short yanagiba was a wedding present. I keep it principally for sentimental reasons. But I find that it is also very easy to sharpen reasonably well (and can't be sharpened superlatively, not being a superlative steel) and does a nice job with roasted meats and such, whose crusts tend to eat lovely thin yanagiba edges. So I use it for those purposes, and if it dulls quickly, no big deal. The big yanagiba I mostly reserve for the kind of work it's intended for, in part because I find it finicky to sharpen effectively -- not difficult, precisely, but finicky, because it's so darn long and elegantly shaped and I am so not a hotshot sharpener.

Please note: I am NOT NOT NOT encouraging anyone to go this route. It works for me at the moment.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

At the moment, Chris? And it was such a long road to get to the point that it could work for you at this moment! I'm impressed.  I periodically think I want an usuba, and to put in the time to master it. But... that's lusting after result.  I'm still learning to cut with "regular knives" 

Your posts about the usuba, by the way, have the simultaneous effects of making me want to "go that route" even more and want to turn 180-degrees from it and  walk away very quickly.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Chris appreciate the detailed explanation.

I have to agree with Wag though that you kind of make the usuba sound like something you either want to run to, or walk away from before getting started. 

I remember toying with the idea of a deba (small one mostly) as I really enjoy trying new things and most things seafood etc, but honestly just do not do enough fish (only one here that enjoys them etc) and never really caught on to the style or maybe advantage etc. still one is on the back burner some where in my mind, and have almost clicked the dreaded "but it now button" for one of the inexpensive ones on eBay a few times.

Also been messing around with the idea of either a yanagiba or sujijiki (interesting comparing the two BTW) and since I sold off all my old Henckels slicers I do not have one, and have found myself looking for a slicer a few times so most likely the deba will have to wait until after that.

Still find the deba an interesting knife that looks like it could be very useful in the right uses etc.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Jon has posted some very instructive videos on use of a deba -- concentrating on showing proper technique rather than showing off speed (and elsewhere he's made a pretty good case for why they really are better than filet knives and such, at least for some kinds of fish prep). And there is a fantastic Japanese Knife Society video on proper use of usuba.... which made me think of Chris' pasts posts, and also instantly gave rise to the thought, "I could do that.... eventually... maybe. And I might make those kinds of cuts, if I could."

Edit -- here's the deba video:


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Both of you make me very happy, actually. Because you are reading me dead right, which suggests that I may be expressing my meaning accurately.

An usuba is a "yes yes yes" thing or a "run like heck and don't look back" thing. There is no middle. Do it or don't. [Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no "try."] The first month SUCKS. Seriously. If you're not rather good at sharpening, with a great kit to do it, and you aren't willing to shell out pretty serious cash to buy the knife in the first place, the answer is easy: run like heck. Just DO NOT do it. A mediocre usuba is so awful that I can't advise against it enough. You know that feeling, "hey, maybe I'll just pick up a cheap one, see how it goes, maybe I'll like it or not, whatever"? That don't work. I tried it. I know. Horror and evil ensued. You can't begin with an usuba for under $200 to the best of my knowledge, and with the exchange where it is probably not under $300. Plus sharpening kit and all that. And even then, the first month is pretty awful. I'm crazy, and spent a year in Kyoto, so I did it, but I just do not encourage this. KC Ma, an e-pal of mine, once noted that I seem to be the only home cook around who made this shift and did not end up in tears and blood regretting it. I think he may be right. And I had all these great Japanese-language books to guide me on what to do (with my blonde, busy, mom-of-two professor of Japanese literature wife translating on the fly, with only mild, graceful irritation -- love that girl!).

Deba is great. If you don't know how to fillet French and have it burned into your hands, I think it's actually not that hard to learn, and you can pick up a good deba for a good price. Think 180mm. Keep it sharp and you will love it. There are a million videos, not to mention Nozaki Hiromitsu's great introductory book, to guide you on how to use it. I have not seen a truly bad deba yet. Maybe you have to sharpen it a lot, but who cares? Get a 180mm cheap, sharpen the bujeezus out of it, and give it a go. What can you really lose? It's fun. If you love it, and start butchering fish all the time, spend some more for a good one and you will be glad you did. But for once in a blue moon, a mediocre one will work. (This is the thing about usuba again: it does not work to buy a cheap one just to try, where it does for everything else.)

Yanagiba is great, but if you don't slice raw fish, what for? Costs a pretty penny, and a B****H to keep sharp. Still, a lot of fun. I can't really get my mind around advising someone to buy a cheap yellow steel 195mm one like I have, but since I was given it I rather like it. It's not bad at all.

But usuba.... Oy. Glad I made the shift, honestly, but my criteria for who ought to do the same keep narrowing. I just chipped the tip of mine doing something that only afterwards I realized was stupid, and thought, "jeez -- when do I stop being a total beginner in this?" That's after a year and a half of daily use, you understand. My love-hate thing with this knife knows no bounds.

At the moment, I think I hate it. But that's mostly because sharpening a chip out of it is such a raving PITA. Once I get it back in line, I think I will probably love it again.

Oy, I'm so conflicted....


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Wagstaff said:


> Jon has posted some very instructive videos on use of a deba -- concentrating on showing proper technique rather than showing off speed (and elsewhere he's made a pretty good case for why they really are better than filet knives and such, at least for some kinds of fish prep). And there is a fantastic Japanese Knife Society video on proper use of usuba.... which made me think of Chris' pasts posts, and also instantly gave rise to the thought, "I could do that.... eventually... maybe. And I might make those kinds of cuts, if I could."
> 
> Edit -- here's the deba video:


Yes. You can. It's honestly not hard. I speak as someone who will happily tell you that usuba cuts are a bleeding nightmare. Basic deba butchering is much, much easier than you might think.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

The "maybe I could someday" thought was all about the usuba.  That's *not* what's honestly not hard, right? Cause.... nightmare, and all!

And I sort of want to start cooking fish just to use a deba.  But ... no. I have stronger, countervailing reasons for not cooking fish. So the usuba nightmare won't leave me alone! (Fortunately, I'm not read to spend the bucks at this point, and am wanting to practice both cutting with and sharpening gyutos and such for a good while).


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Wagstaff said:


> I'm confused... the "maybe I could someday" thought was all about the usuba. That's *not* what's honestly not hard, right? Cause.... nightmare, and all!


Um. Wag, can you clarify a bit? I don't mean to carp, but there are a lot of negations here, and I am having a hard time figuring out what you are asking or commenting on. Are you thinking that once upon a time you were figuring that the usuba would be something you might aspire to? Sorry -- guessing here. I want to help, honestly I do, and as a home cook guy I'm with you, but I'm not getting where you're coming from.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I was editing as you were quoting.  Not that this made me clearer.

You said "yes you can".  Which seemed to me to be a response to my wondering if I could.  But I wondered if I could learn the usuba.

And you seemed to be saying "yes you can" about the deba.

Hope that clears it up.

Thanks, Chris -- I think you're clear all the way.  I'm guilty of creating the confusion (and suffering from it for no good reason.  I could write better if I weren't so damned ADD at this hour).


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Wagstaff said:


> I was editing as you were quoting. Not that this made me clearer.
> 
> You said "yes you can". Which seemed to me to be a response to my wondering if I could. But I wondered if I could learn the usuba.
> 
> And you seemed to be saying "yes you can" about the deba.


Gotcha.

Usuba: Can you learn this? Probably. Have you got basically decent hand-eye coordination? I mean, can you play ping-pong, sharpen a knife, or play a video game without a disaster? Then yes, of course you can learn this. Don't overestimate this: 15-year-old apprentices in Japan have learned this perfectly well for 150 years.

But that's just the beginning.

Can you acquire the knife? Well, it'll cost you. Do NOT buy a cheapie just to try. Honestly, I've been there, and it's a nightmare. You will have to spend a good $200 or so, maybe more, to have a knife worth using. If you have an expert standing over you all the time, you can actually get away with a cheapie, because there are ways and means, but for us who have to learn by ourselves, it's a disaster. I speak from experience. DON'T.

Have you got sharpening kit? You WILL chip it. I promise. You need good stones ranging from about 200 to about 6000 grit, in an even progression. There are many ways to think about this, but the limits are pretty much set. At 6k, the usuba begins to glide in a way that is very hard to explain but is crucial to making this knife not only workable but a good and even superior substitute for a gyuto or chef's knife. But when you chip it, you will need the coarse stuff and then be able to work it up all the levels to get it back to its sweet spot. 10k would be no bad thing, but is not necessary.

Can you sharpen? You must learn this, or this knife is just not even worth it. Honestly. For the first 6 months you'll dull it every time you pick it up. It may bite you just because it is mad at you. Believe it.

Are you just a little bit nuts? This is the break-point for me. Are you willing to ignore perfectly good knives to use this thing even though you are currently hating it? Will you just fight with this thing, knowing it will dull and chip, even though you have other options? If not, don't do this. You must spend a good 6 months using nothing but the usuba for vegetables before it starts to click in your hands. That's not enough, but it's when the whole thing starts to seem worthwhile.

Have you got a good cutting-board? You need butcher block. An expert can use an usuba with anything, but you must start with butcher-block hardwood. Seriously. Anything else and it's chip city. No fun.

How much patience do you really have? How often are you willing to screw up, mess up the blade, have to re-sharpen? Are you willing to cut everything weirdly, just because that's the standard way, not really knowing why? Are you willing to focus your attention on vegetables and leave fish and meat kind of to one side?

Last but perhaps most important: do you have any way to learn the basic techniques? It's not like anything else. It's weird and a pain. Do you have Nozaki's book? Can you live with a few Japanese books with lots of photos? Do you know where to find good videos? (Jon Broida's are the best for non-Japanese speakers.)

From where I stand, now, these are major questions. Some of them I knew in advance, some I did not. But that's what this takes. And I think very few sane people could really go through this and say, "yes, the usuba is for me." I am one of them. I love it, on the whole. I try to cut a carrot crosswise with a gyuto and think, "jeez, this thing is a pain, where is my usuba?" I love finding that there is this other weird way of holding the knife to cut certain things. I have friends in Japan who can help me get a new knife when I utterly screw this one up (not happened yet, but it could any time). I hate the fact that I have a dinged tip right now (after 18 months of devoted use!) but I know what to do and have the equipment to do it, and I genuinely look forward to later this weekend when the kids are away skiing and I have an opportunity to really overhaul this blade.

Does this sound like you? Then welcome to the nuthouse. If not, I advise you not to make eye contact, just back away slowly, then run, run, run for the hills.

You CAN learn this, but do you really want to?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> An usuba is a "yes yes yes" thing or a "run like heck and don't look back" thing. There is no middle. Do it or don't. [Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no "try."] The first month SUCKS. Seriously. If you're not rather good at sharpening, with a great kit to do it, and you aren't willing to shell out pretty serious cash to buy the knife in the first place, the answer is easy: run like heck. Just DO NOT do it. A mediocre usuba is so awful that I can't advise against it enough. You know that feeling, "hey, maybe I'll just pick up a cheap one, see how it goes, maybe I'll like it or not, whatever"? That don't work. I tried it. I know. Horror and evil ensued. You can't begin with an usuba for under $200 to the best of my knowledge, and with the exchange where it is probably not under $300. Plus sharpening kit and all that. And even then, the first month is pretty awful. I'm crazy, and spent a year in Kyoto, so I did it, but I just do not encourage this. KC Ma, an e-pal of mine, once noted that I seem to be the only home cook around who made this shift and did not end up in tears and blood regretting it.


Somehow all I am absorbing from that is a "bloody and expensive mess" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Now maybe if I was spending a year in Japan with a lot of free time, but then I do not see that happening either lol.

Anyhow appreciate the candid info and will most likely see the addition of a deba and then revisit any idea of a usuba etc.


> Yanagiba is great, but if you don't slice raw fish, what for? Costs a pretty penny, and a B****H to keep sharp. Still, a lot of fun. I can't really get my mind around advising someone to buy a cheap yellow steel 195mm one like I have, but since I was given it I rather like it. It's not bad at all.


That makes sense, and the practicality of the yanagiba seems a total miss for most, and is why I personally keep leaning towards the sujihiki, but still there is just something that gets the brain working when i look at some of the yanagiba's.

Sad thing here is that much as I not only enjoy various styles of fish I am the only one here that does, and the practical side of things once again weighs against the yangiba as it just doesn't make sense when comparing the investment to the actual amount of use/fish etc. I was actually debating putting some time into learning to prepare sushi (even one of my favorite places for sushi that had both great prices and product had the sushi master train one of the prep cooks so there would be someone to do it on his day off etc, and then actually had the apprentice replace the master, and low and behold medicore sushi at best) but it was just not working out when considering how often I would be able to utilize everything.

So the more I think about it the practicality of the sujhiki is most likely going to win out, and will at least see some reasonable amount of use (hams, roasts etc)_and I am sure it will find new unexpected uses as time rolls on.

Since I am still recovering from the cost of the new Konosuke it may be inexpensive deba first, and then ??????


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> Does this sound like you? Then welcome to the nuthouse. If not, I advise you not to make eye contact, just back away slowly, then run, run, run for the hills.


In the name of saving some space I did not quote your hole post, but I did in fact really enjoy reading the whole thing. It really gave a good insight into your thoughts about the usuba.

Only confusing thing is that I am not sure if all the warnings are not actually creating the complete opposite of your intended affect. 

Anyhow (or maybe wow) now that you let the cat out of the bag so to say just how different is the grip and cuts or technique?

Still leaning towards running etc, but somehow I envisioned it to be used in some combination of a santoku, Chinese cleaver, and a dough cutter/separator??

Just judging by the height, profile, and look of it. Then again I will openly admit I know pretty much nothing about the knife at all lol


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

LennyD said:


> In the name of saving some space I did not quote your hole post, but I did in fact really enjoy reading the whole thing. It really gave a good insight into your thoughts about the usuba.
> 
> Only confusing thing is that I am not sure if all the warnings are not actually creating the complete opposite of your intended affect.
> .....


Me too, to both points. But I was there already from past posts.... still, MUCH enjoyed reading the whole thing put together that way; and this time am having the expense side of it driven home. Not so much $ for the good knife, but the whole shebang. I'm nuts enough to lose sleep over wanting to learn the usuba. I don't know if I'm nuts enough to DO it though! At least not ... now.... (backing away slowly...)


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Big thing about using a deba for fish is that it really encourages you to make long, fast cuts -- which is how fish should be done if you want really smooth surfaces.  You can use a chef's for fish just as you'd use a deba as long as it's sharp enough.  I have a 7" "Nogent" chef's for small and medium fish, and use my 10" K-Sab for anything larger; they work very well, but I suppose real debas would be better if I wanted to spend the money for good lefty knifes.

Maybe that concept needs more a segue to the next one, but...

The thing of it is, you really need to think of yanagiba, usuba and deba as a trio -- you can't really get what you need from them without the others; and if you buy just one, you're doing knife-hobby instead of tools for cooking.  Nothing wrong with that, but a little honest self-appraisal never hurts.  Bear in mind that very few really great chefs stand out as knife artists, either.  Take your satisfaction where you find it. 

In the sense of versatility the western style gyuto/chef's is the one knife to rule them all.  But most of us have quite a few more knives than that.  To my mind the western equivalent to the Japanese trio are the quartet of gyuto, suji, petty and bread -- there's not much you can't do with those profiles.  But for my normal cooking I also want something strong enough for "chef de chef" duties, and a big breaker/steaker (like my 10" cimeter) for big meat.  

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *LennyD*
> 
> Anyhow (or maybe wow) now that you let the cat out of the bag so to say just how different is the grip and cuts or technique?
> 
> Still leaning towards running etc, but somehow I envisioned it to be used in some combination of a santoku, Chinese cleaver, and a dough cutter/separator??


It's really, really different. Grip isn't that much a of shift, though there is some. But the shape of the blade, in every dimension, alters everything. Here's a few points off the cuff:

1. It has no curve at all. Pick up any other knife that you use on the forestroke (i.e. not exclusively on a draw) and cut a carrot. Do you see what you just did? You tilted the point of the blade down, a lot or a little, and you pushed forward and down. You MUST NOT do this with an usuba, or you will crack off the tip. So the most basic cut changes: you _must_ cut with the edge perfectly parallel to the board throughout the cut, no curving. And, as you learn this, you WILL crack that tip off, more than once. Say hello to your friend the coarse sharpening stone!

2. It is totally asymmetrical, i.e. single-beveled. This is a pretty minor thing when you're working on a draw-stroke, as you usually are with both a deba and a yanagiba (or takobiki, etc.). You know how when you cut open a fish (to take the obvious example), you lift up on the upper sheet of fish as you go along, and your cut just releases more and more fish to lift? Now imagine doing that to a carrot. Doesn't really make sense, right? So the knife is going to steer hard in a thick, hard vegetable unless you're shaving a thin slice. So you have to compensate for this, depending on what you're cutting, what kind of result you want, and so on. And you will have to do this compensation largely _consciously_ -- it's not obvious just from having the vegetable and the knife before you.

3. It is freakishly thin at the edge, of course, but it's quite thick at the back by comparison to any chef's knife I've ever seen. So it's going to wedge like anything if you cut a thick, hard vegetable (carrots again, or daikon, or even a cucumber). How are you going avoid cracking the vegetable instead of getting a clean cut? Keep the knife wickedly sharp, keep that edge parallel to the board, and go fast and clean. If you don't have the courage of your convictions, you'll crack it. And, of course, if you get scared of tipping the knife and losing the tip, you'll lack that courage, and crack it. And if you do tip it, even if you don't crack the tip, the knife will stop dead in the board when the tip touches down, you'll not be all the way through the cut, and you'll crack the vegetable again.

You can turn most of this into a set of advantages if you do it right, but that means doing everything differently than you'd expect. Let's take potatoes as an example.

Suppose you want to cut some thinnish slices to make a potato gratin or something, OK? So if you have a chef's knife or whatever, you put the potato on its side and cut downward, working from right to left if you're a righty. The slices will stack up on the surface of the blade, of course, and you have to deal with that. But that's straightforward enough, right?

So now I'm going to do it with my usuba. Assuming I want exactly the same cuts, I'm going to cut the potato in half and stand one half on its cut side. Then I'll hold the knife edge flat to the board, my left hand just grazing the inside hollow surface underneath it. Holding it level, I push forward and left, and as I'm going arc the tip faster to the left than I do the heel, and continue the arc by drawing the handle backwards so the tip completes the cut on the front left side of the potato. The slice will be resting flat on the hollow inside surface of the knife, where my left hand already has it ready to lift off and place in a stack to my left; if I choose, and am good at this, I can just repeat the cut without lifting off the slice, until I have a stack of several slices perfectly fanned on the blade. At no point does the edge touch the board: I'm cutting parallel to the board, not down into it. And if I'm good at this, I can do it at least as fast as you can with a chef's knife, have my slices perfectly even, and have them already in a perfect fan, ready to lay beautifully into the gratin dish. In fact, this kind of cutting is so precise that I can quickly shave off potato slices that will make the most beautiful potato chips, just as cleanly and easily as with a mandoline, but with only one piece of equipment. I have seen a real expert do this and it was like a river of slices coming off, just zip zip zip, all perfect and clean and even.

If you try this with a chef's knife, it will bind: the water in the potato will make the flat of the blade stick. But an usuba does it like a dream. What this technique does is to make the single bevel, the straight edge, the weirdly thin edge, and the thick wedge into advantages. The main bevel is exactly in a plane with the board, and the hollow back lifts the cut potato up and out without disturbing its shape, while the freaky thin edge prevents any cracking and the hollow allows that big flat surface just to glide on the potato.

You have to realize that an usuba, properly used, will do almost everything that a chef's knife, utility knife, paring knife, vegetable peeler, and a mandoline will do, all in one knife. You can flute a mushroom, shave potato slices, peel a carrot, dice an onion, and every one of these things is a natural for the knife. But every one of these techniques looks different with this knife than with any other knife. To peel a carrot, potato, daikon, cucumber, or whatever, you use the katsura-muki technique, that weird shaving around in a circle thing most famously used to make sheets of daikon, which produces a peeled vegetable with no strips or flat places the way you'd get with a peeler. But katsura-muki is very hard to learn. It is infinitely easier with an usuba than with another knife, but it's still very hard.

In short, the usuba is its own thing. It does everything its own way. You work with it or against it, and you don't want to be working against something that sharp! Until you play the game the way it wants, you will hate everything about it. Once you learn its game, it starts to play with you, and the whole thing turns around and becomes enormous fun. But it takes a long time to learn. Any slob can make a mediocre but functional cut with a chef's knife -- that's one of the great things about that knife. But doing the most basic thing with an usuba requires at least rudimentary technique if you are not to damage the knife or perhaps yourself.

I adore it. But I can't stress enough the cost -- in money, time, patience, frustration, disappointment, and possibly blood.



> Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*
> 
> The thing of it is, you really need to think of yanagiba, usuba and deba as a trio -- you can't really get what you need from them without the others; and if you buy just one, you're doing knife-hobby instead of tools for cooking. Nothing wrong with that, but a little honest self-appraisal never hurts. Bear in mind that very few really great chefs stand out as knife artists, either. Take your satisfaction where you find it.
> 
> In the sense of versatility the western style gyuto/chef's is the one knife to rule them all. But most of us have quite a few more knives than that. To my mind the western equivalent to the Japanese trio are the quartet of gyuto, suji, petty and bread -- there's not much you can't do with those profiles. But for my normal cooking I also want something strong enough for "chef de chef" duties, and a big breaker/steaker (like my 10" cimeter) for big meat.


As always, BDL and I agree and disagree.

You do not, in my opinion, need to think of the usuba as a necessary member of this trio. If you want a yanagiba and deba for your fish work, and you love a good chef's knife, just buy a shorter deba, which will be easier to learn anyway, not to mention cheaper. You only need a honking big one if you can't use your main knife to mince ultra-fine (don't try that with an usuba: it will chip like anything, and that's not a question of bad technique so much as using the knife improperly).

No question, the chef's knife is the most versatile knife of all. If you are considering a different "anchor," such as an usuba, you have to think about what you could possibly gain to make up for the real losses. An usuba will shine, once learned well, in vegetable work of all kinds. It is a disaster for everything else, which is emphatically not true with a chef's knife.

I have long held the opinion that the ideal candidate for using an usuba is a wealthy vegetarian with great hand-eye coordination, infinite patience, fluent Japanese, a tendency toward obsessive-compulsive behavior, and a lot of free time. Everyone else really needs to wonder whether it's a wise move.


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## davehriver (Jan 13, 2012)

Good thread idea.  I feel that people use small knives because they are intimidated by bigger knives.  I have this issue every time I train a new helper.  I have to teach them to use the knife and then follow up to keep them from slicing 100 carrots with a paring knife.  I don't own any Japanese knives yet, do have Japanese chisels and hand saws.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> You can turn most of this into a set of advantages if you do it right, but that means doing everything differently than you'd expect


Wow I am now sure I have to go find a good vid of someone using a usuba properly as everything you describe is so different from pretty much everything I have learned about using a knife I just have to watch 


> Good thread idea. I feel that people use small knives because they are intimidated by bigger knives. I have this issue every time I train a new helper. I have to teach them to use the knife and then follow up to keep them from slicing 100 carrots with a paring knife. I don't own any Japanese knives yet, do have Japanese chisels and hand saws.


That makes a lot of sense actually, and it seems it could be as much about intimidation as it could possibly be about just getting down technique well enough to be as comfortable with the tip of the blade being 10" away instead of nice an close at 5". I guess that is still a length issue, but somehow in my mind it is just as much translating to be feeling more in control somehow.

I know when I do any type of cutting of something that is in my hand (not just food, but also utility type work too) that somehow a smaller knife just feels more natural, and even 5" could be improved with say 3". I know this is very different than cutting carrots on a board, but just was trying to relate etc.

Curious to how long it typically takes you to get a new helper to become one who is producing reliable consistent cuts using the techniques you show them? Or is it often that people just go back to what they are comfortable with?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

IN RE: Lenny's comment: "Wow I am now sure I have to go find a good vid of someone using a usuba properly as everything you describe is so different from pretty much everything I have learned about using a knife I just have to watch "   :

I'll have to dig up the URL for "the" video that, along with Chris' posts here, created ALL the trouble for me


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Shorter knives like parers really come into their own when you move the food against the knife, instead of moving the knife against the food. Usually that's, when you use your thumb to brace the knife. I find that a comfortably sized handle -- usually not available in knives less than 6" long -- is more important than a short blade for all but the most intricate work. On the other hand, I also think a lot of the "classic" fancy tourne and other garde-manger stuff is stupid and refuse to do it. I always kind of preferred my 4-3/4" (couteau office) parer to my shorter sheepsfoot and bird's beak knives for pretty much everything; and the first time I tried a 6" petty, that was it. But there's not one single reason in the world you should feel the same.

Given adequate board size and sufficiently light knives, the difference between comfortably using a 18cm santoku or 30cm suji to comfortably chop an onion is almost entirely grip and posture.

Size -- whether height or hand size doesn't make a big knife harder or easier. That's a common and comfortable myth, especially among women. But knives aren't golf clubs, and she doesn't need a special set to fit her petite size or reinforce her femininity. Again, it's grip.

You can give someone a longer knife and say "practice," or teach them how to hold the knife properly so the line of the knife -- including the tip -- follows their eyes effortlessly and naturally, much the same as steering a bicycle.

Like it or not, one of the keys to a good grip is a sharp knife. A good grip is a soft grip, but a dull knife needs a strong grip (along with weight and rock) to supply power.

Don't rag your wife about knife skills. There's an enormous amount of pressure on women to be perfect in the kitchen. Even if you're the family cook, having a husband say "I can teach you to be better," is not on the program. Especially when said husband is a total putz who can't manage to put his underwear in the hamper. When it comes to your internet knowledge and auto-didact skills, you can tell her what you've learned and how much fun you're having but otherwise keep your mouth shut. If she wants to know how, she'll ask.

You might suggest taking a class *together*.

Regardless of skill level, very few people choose to go back to dull knives after they've spent time with sharp ones. My wife's evolution was as charming as it was typical. A couple of weeks after we started living together she asked, "Honey, why do you sharpen [referring to steeling] your knives so frequently?" But after a few months she said, "Honey, MY knife's dull. It doesn't fall through an onion any more. When are you going to really sharpen?"

If the choice is between someone's idea of correct knife skills and doing what you've always done which has managed to get the job done well -- frequently the second is better than the first. You have to fool around with different things long enough to get comfortable -- then decide if you want to stay with them or not. Other than the anodynes of better edges and safe practice, there's not much that's inherently superior.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree, BDL. Very well put. Especially the part about dealing with spouses. Best thing that two people can do is to learn together and enjoy the time with each other.


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## davehriver (Jan 13, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Wow I am now sure I have to go find a good vid of someone using a usuba properly as everything you describe is so different from pretty much everything I have learned about using a knife I just have to watch
> 
> That makes a lot of sense actually, and it seems it could be as much about intimidation as it could possibly be about just getting down technique well enough to be as comfortable with the tip of the blade being 10" away instead of nice an close at 5". I guess that is still a length issue, but somehow in my mind it is just as much translating to be feeling more in control somehow.
> 
> ...


 I can usually teach a person to be comfortable chopping (it actually isn't only knife size it's chopping that is intimidating) in a couple of sessions. I feel that a 10" chefs knife just is more efficient than a shorter knife, it's basic leverage, also I can chop more carrots at once. 10" slicers and 10" bread knives just handle a bigger range of product size. I like paring knives of different lengths but mostly sharp with a comfortable handle. I will spend some serious money for a chefs, slicer or bread knife, just cus I like good and pretty tools, but have been very happy with white handled paring knives from the restaurant supply store.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Using a long knife (heavy is a different thing) comfortably is far more a matter of grip and adequate board space than anything else.  You probably don't need an explanation as to why a long knife needs a big board.  I probably would, but that's not an excuse for you.

97.44% of the rest of it is in the grip.  Go ahead, and ask: "Boar, why is the grip so important?"

Funny you should ask.  If you squeeze the handle hard, and if your wrist is both stiff and crooked, the point of the knife won't naturally go where your eyes tell it to.  You'll have to take your time to relocate the knife whenever you move it more than a couple of times.  On the other hand, with a relaxed grip and straight wrist, the elbow, forearm, hand, handle, knife and tip form one straight line.  Then the knife points wherever your eyes go, without constant re-orientation.  If you're any good at pool or billiards it's something you know -- the mechanics of holding a knife and a cue are very similar.

I should add that a good grip is a soft grip, and that a soft grip depends on a sharp blade.  No getting from sharpness when talking about knives.

Worth noting also that a great many people find longer Japanese made knives much easier to handle than German counterparts -- even comparing 240mm Japanese blades to 8" Germans.  The extra agility is a function of weight, lower tip, and an edge with less rocker and belly.

The 10" range is the most efficient for most people's "go-to gyuto," assuming they have at least minimal skills.  Most people go with an 8" because they don't know how to hold a knife and shorter seems safer and easier to handle.  While at the end of the day it comes down to personal choice, I think it's a good idea to learn good technique and try a 10" knife before committing to short knives forever.

The transition won't take long, I promise.

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Boar - if one is comfortable with a 240mm gyuto, do you think that another gyuto in a 270mm is a good, poor, or "whatever" decision? For most people (i.e. not prep chefs but home cooks), it* would seem that the 240 is plenty and there is little/no need for the increased length but I'm curious as to your opinion on this.**

* "it" being a combination of my own perception and general feeling I've come up with by reading around the web in the last couple of weeks

** I'm lusting after a Moritaka #2 270mm for no apparent good reason and find my brain trying to talk myself out of it


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> but have been very happy with white handled paring knives from the restaurant supply store


I have to agree on what you said, but especially the thing with smaller knives. I do not know exactly why but I have a few myself that have been around for years, but none are anything special (I think they were left over from inexpensive sets when things like that still were imported from Japan) but still sharpen up nicely and I have not found a reason to trash them. Maybe because they do not see the time hitting the board that a chefs type would, or maybe I just expect different things from a paring knife etc,


> the mechanics of holding a knife and a cue are very similar


I had to quote this as it is something I was told over 25 years ago, and though I thought it was nuts at first I learned a while back just how true it is. Oh and I mean that right on down to the light grip BTW.


> ** I'm lusting after a Moritaka #2 270mm for no apparent good reason and find my brain trying to talk myself out of it


Just curious if you pulled the trigger on that Moritaka yet?

It has been three hours you know


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Just curious if you pulled the trigger on that Moritaka yet?
> 
> It has been three hours you know


Hah, am I that transparent? No...not yet. But the page is open. And it's in my cart. Actually, both the Supreme and the Deluxe are in the cart...have to choose one, if I were going to choose one. Le sigh. I'll never pay off my house.


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Addiction is... such an ugly word. I prefer "spontaneous and uncontrollable dedication."  Oh, how I know what that is like. It seems to be twice as bad when you have champagne tastes on a beer budget, too.

My garage is full of enough professional auto-care supplies to make Jay Leno envious. I travel on a whim because I have extreme wanderlust -- I took a crappy job at an airline, with crappy hours, crappy conditions and crappy pay, just so I could travel more. I didn't realize that it costs money to actually be where I get to, though. At one point I worked at _two_ airlines just to make more money so I could pay for hotels and food and whatnot (yes, Air Chaos was one of them. Thanks for treating us like dirt, Robert Milton, but at least I did get to YVR on your dime). I order all my coffees (espresso, mostly) from either Intelligentsia (Chicago) or Counter Culture (Raleigh, NC) because I have yet to find a good roaster anywhere in Canada. I dread the day I take up roasting at home, though I'm quite sure dear wife will draw the line before I start doing that!

After reading and absorbing the info in BdL's and Chris' and others' very thoughtful posts here, I've now got visions of sugarplums dancing in my head. LOL! I'd like a nice carver, too, for the couple of times a year I need it. I'd love to be able to invest the time and sanity to create daikon sheets with a good usuba like I see in the videos (though the organic daikons I get in my CSA farm basket are nowhere near cylindrical!). I do, however, believe I could put a decent deba to good use on a regular basis, so I'll be shopping for that in my short time in Tsujiki and Kappabashi next week.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

270 AND 240 Go-To Gyutos:

You need both exactly as much as you need two go-to gyutos the same length. 240 and 270mm are substantially similar, and one probably won't come as a revelation and the other as a curse. Actually a 21cm gyuto is far less like a 24, and a 30cm is far less like a 27 than a 24 is like a 27 for some reason having to do with what I'd guess you call mediumishness. 24 - 27 is probably the 3cm in cutlery which means least.

Knowing that and feeling that in my hand when I go from one to the other -- it's still MY 3cm (in cutlery), and I much prefer wa-27cm to wa or yo-24cm for no very good reason. And...

FWIW, a wa-27 will probably fall right in between a yo-24 and yo-27 -- depending on maker(s).

And... I think it's positive to fool around in the range of lengths until you find the perfect knife. After that... I'm not so sure. I believe there's another high end gyuto in my future for review purposes; but if I were buying another ultra-zoot knife on my own for myself, it probably wouldn't be a gyuto, it would probably either be an 8" suji just for trimming -- or maybe not a fancy knife at all, and just a 7" or 8" Forschner breaker.

Or... you know I bought Linda her own Sab au carbone chef's and parer/petty -- maybe I should replace MY old Sab chef's and slicers. They're very old, have been sharpened down quite a lot and the profiles are looking a little the worse for wear. You might even say deformed.

Or...

Hey, who said it isn't an addiction?

*Re Carving Knives:*

If you can live with highly-reactive, seriously PITA carbon, the Misono Sweden 270 and 300mm sujis are on the way to being ultimate ceremonial carvers. Excellent everyday slicers as well. _An engraved dragon on a seriously good blade, not to mention a great, roomy handle_. C'mon. What more do you want?

BDL


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> 270 AND 240 Go-To Gyutos:
> 
> You need both exactly as much as you need ...


That was what I saw in the thread preview and I totally finished that sentence with "...a divorce" or "...a hole in your head" simultaneously. Honestly, if I get another knife, I might end up with both of my sentence completions as well! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Realistically, I can probably hold off adding the 270 until I spend WAY more time with my 240 but I can definitely see what you mean about it not being a significant difference, now that I have the 270 FH suji in hand and can feel how "appropriate" the length is.

You're right, though...that dragon blade is pretty sweet.

Sameguy - you know what's weird? I actually like Air Canada. From a traveler's perspective, they've got a pretty comfortable flight with good seating, good entertainment, and reasonably efficient administration. Sitting in YYZ in November shortly after they got bad contract news and watching how...hmm..less than efficiently they were moving...that was an interesting experience. I actually fly AC when given the choice between them and most other carriers in the same price range (e.g. a trip from YVR to YYZ with WJ vs. AC...I'd fly AC any time). Enjoy the trip to Japan and bring home a collection to feed your "spontaneous and uncontrollable dedication." /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

You have it all wrong. Ditch the 240 now, saying to yourself as haughtily as possible that it's a 'compromise' size for those who don't know what they want. Get a 270 immediately, then obsess about whether you want the matching 210 gyuto or something else. Then use the smaller size price difference to justify something even more high end. And you'll feel silly having the best knife be the smaller experiment anyway and start obsessing about the next better 270. Don't even think about cooking or practicality. 

If you wanna be insane, THAT is how it's done.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Wagstaff said:


> If you wanna be insane, THAT is how it's done.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Sounds well practiced!


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## mrs salt (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi everyone, I'm new here and this is the first thread I've browsed and I have to say I now feel like I've been living in a hole since the age I've started cooking. I've only used whatever knife is available in the kitchen and since I'm not well off then I normally stick with one-- a $90 Cuisineart chef's knife which I've been using for 4 years now. When the blade gets dull then I have my trusty stone, or running the knife along the back part of a ceramic plate works just as well...

And now knives come in numbers and codes that sound like classified military weapons and I am feeling like the student who deserves to wear the Dunce hat after class. Thank God that I still have all my digits complete *knockin' on wood* and yes, I am going to Google most of the knives mentioned above but really, how much am I missing by not being able to work with some of these knives?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

You might be missing things from a quality perspective, but as far a types of knives, you're not missing anything.  A  "gyuto" is a chef's knife, a "petty" is a utility knife, a "sujihiki" is a slicer. A yanagiba, an usuba, and a deba are Japanese knives in a traditional Japanese style (they're chisel-ground, and require a different set of techniques for a different cuisine.... this is simplified but not by much). 

You're not missing a whole lot in terms of knife types. The Japanese knives in the western style (the first three I mentioned above) are knives that often get sharper and stay sharper and are lighter than western counterparts, are often more "French" in profile than "German" (i.e., there's a less dramatic curve up to the tip), they're often lighter.  A Japanese handle (a "wa-"  handle) is often lighter, maybe making the blade more blade heavy (so a different value placed on the quality of "balance").

Knives with very hard steels are easier to sharpen with a "water stone" than with what you use (which is an oil stone, whether you use or oil or not). Water stones are soaked (or "splashed" or something in between) and they cut metal faster, are better for harder metals which, generally, Japanese knives are made from.

The back of a ceramic plate I don't know much about -- but it seems that's a substitute (and a rough one) for a honing rod. If you say it works "just as well" as your stone, maybe it's a rough substitute for a stone (or a very abrasive honing rod).  That's a longer conversation (believe it or not!).  Not longer overall, but longer for the minimum. I won't get into it. I'd be too likely to be wrong if I were to!

That's cliff's notes at 6 a.m. off the top of my head, anyway.  There's more to say, hence lots and lots of threads on various forums, books, youtube videos, etc.... but I think t his gives you the general idea of whether or what you're "missing."  Or that's my hope!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Because of the limitations imposed by the type of materials it uses, and the way it's shaped, your Cuisinart chef's knife doesn't give you most of what a truly sharp knife can bring to the party. Your sharpening methods -- although better than those practiced by many -- probably don't help a great deal either. But since the quality of your knife is so bad, really good sharpening wouldn't make much of a positive difference. So... there's the absolution.

You don't need a bunch of different kinds of knives to do well, those things which most cooks do Only three or four, and a couple or three more if there are specialty tasks you do often -- like butchering or fish work -- or have some particular, unusual knife you really like. For most people a chef's, a bread knife, and a "petty" (a longer paring knife) are enough for the "core set."

The cost for a knife which is worth sharpening, a combination stone which is worth using, and a honing steel which hones without damaging is pretty close to $100. Add a bread kinfe and a petty/parer knife of similar quality, and you're looking at around $150. Take a soup to nuts approach by adding two more knifes (soup to nuts, as it were) and another stone, $250; ish.

If you decide that it's time to swap the old for the good, you might need a new cutting board as well. The board is as integral a part of the prep system as knives and sharpening.

However the jump from the "adequate" quality level to "good" is expensive; and the big step to "excellent" is very, very expensive. And even if you have some idea of what type of knife, what quality level and how much you're willing to spend it's not easy to choose -- especially for men with our "tool brains" which insist on making mountains out of tiny distinctions -- there are so many contingencies and alternatives.

The good news is that you don't have to know everything; or even figure it out entirely by yourself. This basically comes down to what you need and can afford in terms of knives, and what you can afford and are willing to learn in terms of sharpening.

Here are the first four lessons to help with your orientation:

Knives aren't golf clubs or swim suits. You don't need gender specific tailoring. Whether it comes as a comfort, shock, or something you've already figured out, small hands and petite stature don't make short knives better than long for women;
Sharpening is the bedrock of knife use;
Honing (on a steel) is not sharpening; and
After sharpening, the most important knife skill is grip. A good grip (a) requires a sharp knife; and (b) will make it so you handle longer knives more easily, intuitively and safely, than you handle shorter ones now.
Of course, if you have any questions you'll find plenty of people willing to help.

BDL


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## mrs salt (Feb 5, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> Because of the limitations imposed by the type of materials it uses, and the way it's shaped, your Cuisinart chef's knife doesn't give you most of what a truly sharp knife can bring to the party. Your sharpening methods -- although better than those practiced by many -- probably don't help a great deal either. But since the quality of your knife is so bad, really good sharpening wouldn't make much of a positive difference. So... there's the absolution.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I guess its a good thing that I've got a trusted fish monger and butcher, I'd cringe just trying to French a rack of lamb with my knife-- not that I wouldn't like to learn because I would definitely love to try it myself someday (with a proper knife). So yes, knowing my limitations may make me seem common but I'm not really salivating to get a set of knives equal to spending close to a month's worth of groceries.

Am I being too practical in wanting to splurge on what I actually eat rather than purchasing a set of tools used to prepare it beyond any proper means?...I guess this is why I am not a professional chef, pragmatism killed the cat!

I do love your golf-club and swimsuit analogy as it reminds me of this tiny, tiny Chinese lady who can take a big mean ol' cleaver to a roast duck at my favorite Chinatown restaurant and how she needs to step on a stool to whack at it.

And yes, the grip is very important which is why I will find it very hard to part with my "so-bad-quality" knife but I may change my mind after I've tried one of those "excellent" ones wherever you buy them...we shall see...


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Just curious if you pulled the trigger on that Moritaka yet?
> 
> It has been three hours you know


It took me a couple of days...but... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif a 270mm gyuto on the way. How am I gonna hide that from my wife? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Mrs Salt said:


> I guess its a good thing that I've got a trusted fish monger and butcher, I'd cringe just trying to French a rack of lamb with my knife-- not that I wouldn't like to learn because I would definitely love to try it myself someday (with a proper knife). So yes, knowing my limitations may make me seem common but I'm not really salivating to get a set of knives equal to spending close to a month's worth of groceries.
> 
> Am I being too practical in wanting to splurge on what I actually eat rather than purchasing a set of tools used to prepare it beyond any proper means?...I guess this is why I am not a professional chef, pragmatism killed the cat!
> 
> ...


You have to keep your audience in mind. If you're happy with your tools and the results that they achieve, then that's great. Yes, there can possibly be more precise, quicker, and finer cutting than what you can achieve with the tools at hand, but hey, if it ain't broke and you're happy with it, then don't fix it, right? Also, you don't have to be as stupid as some of us (like me) when looking to buy ONE good knife and end up with 10 (yes, that's ten) new knives and spending far too much money. You can look at the classic recommendations like the Tojiro DP and get a top notch knife for well under $100.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mrs Salt,

If the closest thing to a sharp knife in your house is a steak knife... When you get tired of crying every time you chop an onion, would actually like to taste finely chopped herbs instead of crushed, want the feel of glass-smooth cut meats instead of ragged in your mouth, etc., etc., let's talk.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> Mrs Salt,
> If the closest thing to a sharp knife in your house is a steak knife... When you get tired of crying every time you chop an onion, would actually like to taste finely chopped herbs instead of crushed, want the feel of glass-smooth cut meats instead of ragged in your mouth, etc., etc., let's talk.
> BDL


Very well said!

Though if anyone has not figured it out yet this is where things start (even if your just wanting something better than your current dept store knife) and then once your feel just how effortlessly a well made and sharpened knife cuts, slices, and chops your hooked for life and would happily serve Ramen noodles and Mac & cheese for weeks to pay for it if you had to.

And then there is how you will notice things you never did before when dining out, and how you find. Your catching yourself from commenting on someone on the kitchen may need to sharpen their knife because your now able to know just how different food looks when its cut instead of crushed and ripped up.

I am so glad I found my way to the Knives I now own, but sometimes it can be be a bit strange. Lol


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## mrs salt (Feb 5, 2012)

@BDL, while your proposition to talk may be the highlight of my day, may I remind you that I have never said I use such a dull instrument as to leave my chops feeling "ragged in my mouth" nor do I see any difference with how I thinly slice my basil leaves versus those served at an expensive restaurant. But I won't however attempt to carve out a bloomin' rose out of a tomato with it, but thank you for your previous advise.

What I am merely saying is this is a subject I would like to explore more thoroughly as I am in no mood at this stage of my life to go back to a Cup-O-Ramen diet, enticing as it may seem (not), I'd like to think I've moved on from my college days. Maybe I would start with Deputy's above advice to check out a Tojiro DP (@Deputy- thanks!). I feel it's a good start...

And what is it with this "how different food looks when its cut instead of crushed or ripped up." comment? This is too exaggerated and in my opinion would be appropriate if the chef were using the back of a spoon or a hack-saw, in any case LennyD you should have cried bloody murder right then and there if it were that bad. Refund!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mrs. Salt.

Sorry you felt offended, but you're the one with the Cuisinart knife. 

There's a practical limit on how sharp you can get a Cuisinart no matter how well you sharpen. It's determined by the geometry of the knife and the alloy used to make it. If you think it's sharp, you don't know what sharp really is. That's not meant as an insult or to be insulting. It's just the way it is, and if it's any comfort to you -- you're part of a vast majority of cooks who share a similar level of awareness. 

The Tojiro DP is a pretty good, entry-level Japanese knife. The Fujiwara FKM is just as good and a little cheaper. The new Artifex from Chef's Knife to Go is also an excellent and even less expensive choice. They each have their strengths and weaknesses, perhaps one will be the right knife for you -- and perhaps it will be something else.

It doesn't matter which knife you buy -- it will get dull eventually. The most important distinctions in making one knife different and better than another are how long the edge lasts when you maintain it, and how good an edge it takes when you sharpen it (or have it sharpened). 

Good luck,
BDL


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## mrs salt (Feb 5, 2012)

@BDL- I'm not offended at the least and I'm sorry if you felt I was offensive to you, I do tend to have an odd sense of humor which may be misunderstood specially when read as opposed to me saying it to your face...No worries at all, its all fine and good.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

MRS Salt  I think I should share this as I know it was hard for me to grasp until I actually made the jump, and I was previously using some various Henckels Pro-S that were and still are believed to be some of the better choices and then soon as I finally received my first Japanese knives pretty much everything I thought I knew previous was completely out the door (literally since I sold off those Henckels real quick lol).

Maybe research some threads here on the two first brands BDL mentions above (Tojiro DP, and Fujiwara FKM) and see if you believe either or both could fit into your needs and budget as those are the brands that changed my thinking, and are far better than most could believe due to the "entry level" description, and far beyond most western knives that are considered "high end" like my previous ones etc.

Sorry I can not comment on the other suggestion as it is still sort of new and unknown, but seems to be seeing mention lately.

Myself I just wouldn't comment too negatively on your current choice etc unless I knew you personally, and if I did you would well know how poorly I look at all similar products that sell based on a known name in order to confuse the consumer into creating a level of value based solely on name recognition in order to allow them to produce and sell an inferior or inexpensively made product at a higher profit.

Do not feel bad as it has happened to the best of us, and my own experiences is where I developed such a strong opinion, and I really do not enjoy being duped into something that was not of the quality I had anticipated etc.

Also much of this can be a bit confusing so just try and hang in there, learn as much as you can, ask as many questions as you need to, and once your comfortable with making a decision know in advance there is almost no chance of turning back as like most all before you the difference in the performance of even entry level Japanese knives to that of "higher" end popular western knives is that good.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Great thread...currently I almost use my 10" TI Sab for virtually anything, mainly because it is a rather new addition, finally got it super sharp, and it seems to be a great overall knife for my style of cutting. 

As to the Usuba; just curious why the 20 dollar variety is not worth trying--where the cheap deba is?  I would think (gets me in trouble every time) that the difference would lie in the weight and blade shape?  If the 20 buck usuba is made of carbon and cheap handle, I would think that the blade could still be manipulated/worked.  Just curious what makes the more expensive models that much better.

Not likely to try anytime soon, but do have a rather inexpensive nakiri and do find the shape helpful...if for nothing else but picking food up off the board...fwiw, I've finally learned to use the back side of my chef's knife:>)

One other question:  does anyone know of any online videos that show proper use of the usuba...I found a few and did see some interesting techniques.

Cheers,

Chinacats


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Darn. I hate it when a joke gets lost on the internet. My apologies for missing it.

In terms of getting a sharp edge, the problem with Cuisinart knives is their alloy. You can just take my word for it, but it's probably better if you have some idea of what's going on. There are two "materials" (term of art) qualities which usually exist in some degree of tension. Those are "strength" and "toughness." Basically "strength" refers to a material's tendency to resist deforming, while a "toughness" refers to the tendency to avoid breaking or tearing. Put in opposition to one another -- which is understandable if not quite accurate -- a strong alloy will break before it bends and a tough alloy will bend before it breaks.

Sharpening usually involves abrasion, which is the process of wearing away tiny particles of metal -- in other words, breaking pieces off. So, very tough steels don't sharpen well or easily. Which takes us back to your Cuisinart knives -- they're made from extremely tough steel. The only really efficient way to sharpen them is to use something like a set of coarse carbide wheels or rods -- and while that will get you a toothy edge which will seem sharp in the sense that it cuts efficiently, it's really more of a saw than a knife and it can't do what a fine edge can. 

The alternative to using something like a carbide sharpener (note the word "like") is letting the knives go fairly dull. Then they tend to crush their way into the food, rather than cut.

Saw or crush, you lose taste and texture compared to a sharp, fine edge. It makes a difference in mouthfeel with some foods in particular, and taste with others; sometimes there's an overlap, and sometimes it just doesn't matter. But it matters enough, often enough, and with enough common foods that edge taking and holding properties make a good knife worth the investment in time and money. 

And, if you need further incentive, you can cut a lot more onions with a sharp knife without crying than you can with either a saw or a club.

Like many lower end knives, your Cuisinart is made from a rather lousy alloy, and no matter what you do, you can't get the edge you want. 

Rather than just making a recommendation I like to help people narrow down their current likes and also peer into the future a little, so they can make their own informed choice rather than just listening to some internet guy tell them what they should want. When I talk with women, they frequently (oh, if you only knew how frequently) start by telling me that because they have small hands or are 5 foot nothing, they want a short knife. 

So... real apology. It was not only a failure to take things in their proper order but sexist on my part to launch into a diatribe on how hand size and height don't matter. They don't, but I should have kept my mouth shut only if the subject came up.

It's intuitively clear there's no such thing as a "best" knife for everyone. What's less clear, is that it's very unlikely there's one best knife for you either. The trick is to narrow down the choices into a few -- any of which would be excellent.

The best way to start is by narrowing things down by budget, how you use a knife now, what you want from a better knife, how much you're willing to spend; and how much time, trouble and expense you're willing to accept to keep the knife sharp. 

The largest and most important paradigm shift for people who want to upgrade their cooking with a better knife is the importance of sharpening and maintenance. Bear in mind that all knives, even the nicest and most expensive, get dull; and any knife is a dull knife. 

Another thing to remember is that if there's a "cost effectiveness analysis" with a "point of diminishing returns" when it comes to knife and sharpening choices -- it's purely individual; there's no general sweet spot. A very sharp $75 dollar knife will work almost as well as a very sharp $400 knife, yes. But don't kid yourself, there are real differences and to some people they're well worth the money. 

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> The best way to start is by narrowing things down by budget, how you use a knife now, what you want from a better knife, how much you're willing to spend; and how much time, trouble and expense you're willing to accept to keep the knife sharp.
> 
> The largest and most important paradigm shift for people who want to upgrade their cooking with a better knife is the importance of sharpening and maintenance. Bear in mind that all knives, even the nicest and most expensive, get dull; and any knife is a dull knife.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that if there's a "cost effectiveness analysis" with a "point of diminishing returns" when it comes to knife and sharpening choices -- it's purely individual; there's no general sweet spot. A very sharp $75 dollar knife will work almost as well as a very sharp $400 knife, yes. But don't kid yourself, there are real differences and to some people they're well worth the money.


I couldn't agree more. From everything I have learned about choosing a new knife (much from your own insightful advice) and how important different things can be to different people etc there is absolutely no best knife for everyone and also that everyone changes and so may their thoughts on what is best for them.

Just one point on the last paragraph above as I learned rather quickly that the knives I had purchased in the past @ $75 (mostly on clearance sales etc and typically half off lol) which were mostly Henckels etc were very different than the ones I had purchased after finding this site for a similar amount (or even less).

The real issue for me and I am fairly sure many others is understanding what the difference is all about. I mean it is hard enough to be able to absorb the idea that a $75 Fujiwara can become sharper and hold that sharpness longer than a $150 Henckels or Wustof etc. Then even once the mind starts to accept that much of what it had thought previously may not be totally accurate (basically the idea of the Major brand name western knives being so superior etc) and then warms up to the idea of these so called entry level knives it just gets totally thrown for a loop with the inclusion of the idea that there are real differences and advantages that go well beyond this when considering $400 range knives.

It really is a lot to handle, and I know for me at least it took a whole lot of reading and researching various knives, manufacturing processes, designs, reviews, metal comparisons, and countless videos and other sources before I was comfortable making a change.

One good thing though is that much of the information is either on or linked in various threads right here!


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

This thread has mostly moved on from usuba, but chinacats asks a very important question:



chinacats said:


> As to the Usuba; just curious why the 20 dollar variety is not worth trying--where the cheap deba is? I would think (gets me in trouble every time) that the difference would lie in the weight and blade shape? If the 20 buck usuba is made of carbon and cheap handle, I would think that the blade could still be manipulated/worked. Just curious what makes the more expensive models that much better.


Try this as a deliberately exaggerated thought-experiment. Fashion a blade, with a total angle of about 10 degrees, out of tinfoil. Do another from ordinary window glass. Do you see what will happen? In the one case, it'll just crumple before it cuts anything; in the other, it may start to cut, but it will then break. A cheap usuba is made out of steel that simply will not withstand pressure when taken down to a 10-degree angle. What you're supposed to do, if you buy one as an apprentice in a good Japanese restaurant where they use the things, is to put a strong micro-bevel down at the edge. This helps a great deal, but doesn't actually solve the problem -- you'll still get chipping all over the place every time you do something slightly awry. You will also find that a lot of precision cutting is extremely difficult, because the blade has a "shoulder" produced by the microbevel, and with this blade design that is a major problem. Nevertheless, a combination of extreme perseverance (as in cutting with the stupid thing 7 days a week on a professional prep line) and good teachers (both senior apprentices who are actually helpful and a master/chef who will abuse you every time you do anything slightly problematic) will produce results. Then at some point you upgrade to a decent usuba, knowing how to use and take care of it, and suddenly you are liberated from all the horrors of the cheap knife -- and can begin the process of becoming stunningly good with the thing.

I don't advise this for people who aren't going to be dealing with a situation like this. It just means constant frustration, and you'll spend all your time wondering why anyone ever says anything nice about usuba. If you're going to learn this yourself, you've got to have a knife that not only punishes your mistakes (which all usuba do, brutally) but also rewards your successes.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Chris, thanks so much for the response.  I had read about the cheap usuba being no good on quite a few boards but hadn't seen a logical explanation--just the same statement repeated by everyone.  I personally don't have any interest in learning how to use a knife all over again...that being said, it is nice to at least understand the uses as well as limitations of some of the tools that others use. 

This thread has been quite informative.


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## carpenter (Aug 19, 2011)

What is a good knife for slicing potatoes?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

carpenter said:


> What is a good knife for slicing potatoes?


Any of the general purpose knives like chef's, gyuto (another name for a chef's), santoku, nakiri, usuba, etc. Most people prefer a chef's. Also a slicer (aka suji) is good. You want a knife which makes it difficult for the potato slices to cling; which can mean kullens (dimples in the blade), appropriate sharpening and/or a low profile knife like a suji.

At the moment, my 12" suji gets used for general purposes as much as any of my chef's/gyutos. That's not a recommendation by any means, just pointing out that any sharp knife can do just about anything; and that when it comes to slicing and chopping a longer knife has some advantages providing you have enough room on your board and sufficient technique.

Which segues to a related topic deserving its own paragraph. Usually people who use extra length knives (a group which tends to be overwhelmingly male) for general purposes, especially those who use slicers as chef's knives, do so mostly to show off their skills -- with the operative expression being "showing off," rather than "skills." That expressly includes me.

If meaningless challenges aren't part of your personal menu, I recommend a good, sharp, chef's. Everything else is something else.

BDL


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