# How sharp could it be?



## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

So I've been thinking about getting a new knife for a while now but the budget doesn't allow for it anytime soon and I'm kind of attached to my current knife. It's just a victorinox/forschner (well it doesn't say forschner being bought in australia but I think it's what most people recognise it as) rosewood 10" chefs.
I'm not the best sharpener in the world but know the basics and usually see improvement every time. So for general use (and I don't use it for cutting anything harder than the occasional pumpkin) any advice on what edge/angle I can put on it and it will be able to hold? 
Also wondering about the lifespan of these, one of the other guys at work has the same knife but his is badly bowed/misshaped, can I expect that happening within a few years or is that more likely because he's always using a grooved steel in a crazed aggressive way?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Kalach,

There's an awful lot of "it depends" inherent in your questions. We could nail it down a little bit with more specifics, but general answers are probably good enough.

The knife came out of the box sharpened at around a 20* edge angle on both sides (40* included) with 50/50 symmetry. For light use, it can be sharpened to a 15* edge angle on both sides, and hold it pretty well. The best part about a Forschner chef's is its thinness, and a 15* bevel enhances that tremendously. 

But for working the line, 15* might collapse a little too easily -- even if you're working on wood boards. If you're sharpening with some system that gives you fine control of angles, I'd try 17*; but if you're a freehand sharpener like me, shoot for 15* and see how it goes. If you're working on poly or some other form of synthetic board just stay with 20*.

There's a limit to how much polish the blade alloy (X50CrMo15) will hold, and it's not much higher than an "ideal" meat cutting grit level. I'd say a typical 5000# JIS is a little on the high side, but 2000# is a little low. But anywhere in that range should work pretty well. If you've got a 1K/6K combination stone, don't bother throwing it away. 6K is nice, but it won't last long. 

On the other hand, using something like a Norton fine India as your finest stone will be okay if you like a knife with a lot of bite. 

Grooves or no grooves, you don't want to take the knife to an aggressive rod-hone (aka "steel'). But you should have a steel in your kit since the Forschner's biggest edge flaw is its tendency to go out of true. Fine, extra-fine, ultra-fine, smooth are okay; and in your situation, I'd probably go for a fine ceramic (I like the Idahone hugely, but don't know about finding it in Oz) or a Forschner "fine". Forget medium, "diamond hone" or anything at all aggressive. You're right about them eating up the knife. 

So will bad steeling technique. If you hear the knife "clang" on the steel, you're doing it wrong; same angle as the one you sharpen at; four or five strokes per side, max. 

If you get more than two years on the line with a Forschner Chef's you're probably not sharpening frequently enough. If you're carrying a typical work load you should be steeling at least three or four times a night, and hitting the stones twice or thrice a week at minimum. 

Good luck,
BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

Cool, thanks.
I'd already changed it to roughly 15deg bevels a while back and it seems to hold up alright. Oh well I guess it's just about at maximum sharpness for a forschner, just gotta keep it that way now


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Improved sharpening skills is a great answer to almost every knife question. Heaven knows most of us have plenty of room.

Out of idle curiousity, what sort of sharpening techniques and kit do you use?

BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

At the moment I've just got a cheap 'coarse/fine' combi stone. Only started trying to sharpen knives about six months ago, I've found the way that seems to work best for me is to slide the knife from heel to tip along the length of the stone with a slight foward/curving motion. If there's a way to get much better results with what I've got to work with for now please let me know  . Got to agree with you about getting better results from more experience, by 'maximum sharpness for a forschner' I meant the sharpest I think I'll ever be able to get it with my own tools/skills  .


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

The bowing/misshaping is cused by bad technique (only "sharpening' the middle of the blade), enhanced by very coarse stones, compounded by suing a "dished" or "hollowed" stone and probably using power equipent can be factored in as well.

For some, sharpeining is a Zen, others a slippery slope that has no end, and for others, a task that should only be done when neccesary and only as long as required. Basically, there are as many opinions on sharpening as people.....

For many people (myself included) the best way to start is with a "jig" or device that either holds the knife at the required bevel or the stone at the required bevel. This ensures a consistant bevel. 


"Freehand" sharpening requires experience, and the best way to start is with a p.o.s. (piece of...) knife. For workhorse knives a 22-25 bevel is perfectly acceptable. For fine, delicate work 12-18 degrees is great, BUT this knife should ONLY be reserved for fine delicate work--no chickens or squashes.


One of the few rules that everyone can agree on, is that the finer the abrasive you use, the longer your edge will last. (provided it isn't abused)

Coarse grits (from 250 to 800) are ONLY used to reshape the knife (broken tip, big chips, etc). Ranges from 1000-3000 grit are perfect for re-establishing the bevel, and ranges from 4000 to 30,000 are for polishing.

The finer the grit, the shallower and fewer scratches the abrasive leaves on the blade, and therfore the edge lasts longer.

Your choice on abrasives, each type has it's pros and cons.

Hope this helps


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

Yep that helps too, thanks FP.
So it's worth trying to polish the blade as much as possible even on knives that can't hold a fine polish long?


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## chefboy2160 (Oct 13, 2001)

I currently use the Forschners both Fibrox and Rosewood. BDL is spot on about the frequency of steeling, types of steels as well as trips to the stone for a busy kitchen. I carry a combo soft-hard Arkansas 8" stone in my knife roll for work so when I am slow I can touch up my most used edges while getting
paid for it. The stone you have sounds like one that would be good for profiling and repair but you can still take this soft steel up to a finer edge.
I use the Norton synthetic stones Course- Fine Crystolon (Carborundum) and there India stone (Aluminum Oxide) in course-fine for re-profiling and repair work
with the India fine giving you a toothy but very workable edge for the kitchen.
I myself like a little more polish so I go to a soft-hard Arky or a soft-surgical black one for my finisher. There are many types of stones out there which will get you more polish than your current one with a lot of people here who are very up to date on them.
Stay sharp, Doug...........


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chefboy -- Dayum! Do we look like one another too? Or just brothers from other mothers? The only thing we come close to disagreeing about is that with my synthetic Nortons I stay away from Crystolon (silicon carbide) and stick with India (aluminum oxide), entirely. If, for some reason, I wanted SiC, I'd spend the stupid extra money (more than double!) for Razor Edge "hones." But IMO, the Indias are better and four oilstones are enough. Know when to say when, as they say.

I don't have a "hard" Ark, but feel the soft takes a Forschner up to a near optimum finish, while a good surgical black (Hall's) is more than it can hold. Hard should be about perfect. 
_________________________

Kalach -- No. Or at least mostly no. If, like me, you use a different stroke and pressure for polishing than you do for profiling and sharpening -- then you can get some benefit out of polishing your current knives in the form of practice. Otherwise, it's not worth the trouble.

You didn't say whether your combi was an oilstone, diamond stone, ceramic, or waterstone. Let us know. Whatever it is, we may be able to help you make it more efficient. Also, which grit levels if you please.

FWIW, I use what I call a "W" stroke for profiling, repairing and sharpening, but not polishing. It's a slightly modified version of Murray Carter's up and down sectioning stroke; and the "W" should be enough for you to figure out how the knife moves up and down the stone. 

For repairing, profiling and sharpening, try to work at a sufficiently slow rate where you can be very sure of controlling your angles. Use a light to moderate pressure just the tiniest bit more forceful than "letting the weight of the blade do the work."

In the interests of full disclosure: With the "W" I also use far more speed and a lot more pressure than you should. 

BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

BDL, can't remember the brand but it's an oilstone and said '108 silicon carbide', I've heard quite a few people say to use it dry so that's what I'm doing. Um grit levels it didn't say, just 'coarse & fine', you can feel the grit when you use it but just running fingers along it it feels almost completely smooth if that helps.

Also decided that the budget can probably stretch for a good knife within the next month. After a lot of thought I'm thinking of going with the 27cm Mac pro chef knife, anything else I should know about them BDL? I've seen you mention them highly before, and heard good things from other people too. Was looking at a 'king ice-bear' 1000-6000# water stone to go with it, would that be ok for a while? I haven't had much luck finding many of the brands you guys mention for stones in Oz.
Thanks, all advice is appreciated


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## nick.shu (Jul 18, 2000)

Kalach, if your in Sydney, you could always sign up for the sharpening workshop that they do at Chefs Armoury. These guys will take you through the japanese sharpening techniques. Also as a Aus chef, the cost is a tax deduction.

This is their website: Japanese food, Japanese knives, Knife Sharpening - from Chef's Armoury

worth a look.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Kal,

I'm a huge fan of the MAC Pro as you probably already know. There are several knives in more or less the same value group when you consider performance and US prices. However, I don't know enough about prices in Oz to make meaningful comparisons.

Anyway, staying with stainless, in alphabetical order you might want to consider: Masamoto VG, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, and Togiharu G-1. You might want to think about the value leading JCK Kakayugi VG-10 (which I know only by reputation). 
There's lots to like about all of them. We can talk about whatever fits within your budget and needs. 

The thing I like most about the MAC Pro is that the recommendation has never come back to haunt me -- at least not permanently. More than twenty people have bought, at least partly because of conversations with me and all but two have been delighted from the get go. The other two had problems with ill fitting handle scales -- probably caused by humidity and temperature extremes during storage and handling; and MAC USA (not the retailers) took care of that for them. MAC USA even took care of a customer in Denmark who ordered his from an English e-tailer. 

That may or may not be the case in Oz; and that's something you'll have to find about. 

That out of the way, let's talk performance. Just ask.

BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

Nick,
Cool a few bits and pieces from that site caught my interest, living in Cairns though so it's a bit too far to go I think  . If you know of any other Australian based online shops please let me know, I've gotten lots of stuff from everten.com.au and they've always been good, but sometimes lack a lot of the more 'higher end' knives and such.

BDL,
Hmm lets see, as you know I'm currently using the forschner rosewood 10" chefs, I like pretty much everything about it except the edge is good but not exceptional and the constant honing is getting annoying.
What I'm looking for is something sharp, roughly the same weight as the forschner, similar geometry (certainly not much more curved, I like straightish edges), no bolster or anything at the heel, wooden handles are a definate plus but could do without if I really had to, and be 10-11".
Mostly to be used on salad type stuff, more veg than anything else, sometimes meat, fish, poultry, cooked and uncooked, I've also got my Furi FX set aside for heavy jobs so wont need a new knife for all that sort of stuff.
I've had trouble trying to find certain knives in Oz, I've had nothing but good experiences with Everten (link above) so would like to get something from them if at all possible.
Um so yeah I'm thinking the Mac sounds like it fits all those critera perfectly.

Thanks guys, let me know what you think  

Oh PS,
I've also heard some people say hones/steels should be avoided altogether with J-knives, if that's true it doesn't bother me at all having to give it a touch up on a stone once a day instead of steeling, plus it'd save me the cost of getting a more suitable hone, what do you think?


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi all.

Kalach, with your permission I'll use your thread to ask a similar question about a different knife. thanks ! :thumb:

So, just like Kalach, my sharpening set is not going to improve in the short term, and I also was wondering what kind of optimum edge I could get on my Global G5.
Just as a reminder, I've got a #1500 grit stone ( the one from JCK ), and few sharpening skills.

After a year or so without seeing a stone ( I didn't have one), the knife got less efficient than it was ootb . I actually managed to improve that situation with the new stone I received lately, but to the point where the knife is better , or less bad, than it was before I sharpen it. By no mean I find it impressive anyway. 
So I was wondering if it could get -_really-_ sharp with a #1500 stone ( whenever I got skilled at sharpenig it ) , or if I necessarily need a finer stone in order to get better results.

Thanks in advance,
GK


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Kalach -- Some Japanese knives are too hard or too asymmetric to benefit from honing on a steel. MAC Pro are not among them. A Pro shouldn't need honing as frequently as a Wusthof or Forschner (or carbon Sabatier for that matter), but will need and benefit from a rod-hone now and then.

You want something which is pretty fine and won't scuff up the edge too much. An Idahone fine ceramic is a very good choice. The MAC black is too, but at a significantly higher price.

Goku -- A Global can be polished to good effect up to about 6000#. Neither the alloy Global uses ("CroMoVa"), nor its construction makes a Global particularly good at keeping an edge. Still it will hold it long enough to make it worth taking all the way up to 6000#, unless the knife is reserved for uses which go better with a toothier edge. IIRC, your G5 is a "vegetable knife," a nakiri but with an arced edge, and should get the full polish. 

A Takenoko (also called Arashiyama, but it's the same stone) would be an exceptionally good choice as the final stone. Depending on who's selling it, they'll have it listed variously as 6K, 7K or 8K -- but it's 6K right enough. A regular old King 6K would do almost as good a job for a lot less money. There are quite a few good choices in the high-medium 4K - 6K range. Offhand, I forget what Koki (JCK) has.

Learning to use a polishing stone (or an almost-polishing stone) takes some practice. It's not quite as bad as starting from scratch; but you'll be dulling more than sharpening when you first step up to the higher grit as a result of inconsistent angle holding on a less forgiving stone. Make sure you're coming off your 1500# with a very flat bevel, and "practice, practice, practice." If you do dull your knife as you polish -- stop polishing and go back down to the 1500. There are few problems which can be fixed on a high grit stone.

Good luck,
BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

Goku,
You certainly get permission to use the thread, that's another bit of good info I got there 

BDL (or anyone else in the know),
What do you think of the DMT ceramic rod hone, any experience? It says it has a "fine 2200# mesh", is that equal to a grit level on a stone or something different? Just asking because it seems the most available suitable (or maybe not?) hone I can get locally. Haven't looked for the Idahone yet but will try to find one if it's more suitable.
Ps,
Is jumping strait from a 800# stone to a 6000# too much? Would using the fine side of my oilstone in between be useful or not do a lot? Or if I'm just doing a touch-up can I use just the 6k?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey Kal,

You wrote I'm not a fan of diamond rod hones. No matter how fine the diamonds are, they're too aggressive for the task -- at least to my taste. "2200# mesh," refers to the size of the diamond particles. Darn small.

Overall, used with a light touch, not my choice but OK.

Different stuff in Oz and the US. I'm afraid I not only don't know what's available in Oz, but also don't know who will ship from Japan or the US at a reasonable price.

For your Forschner, a Forschner fine "steel" would be an excellent choice. Probably less harmful and certainly less expensive than the DMT, and a lot easier to find than an Idahone.

I think it's a lot of jump. Just a lot or too much is an open question. For the way I like to sharpen, it's too much. For a kit going up to 5000# or higher, I strongly favor a three or four stones (or surfaces). On the other hand, I have a couple of friends who are fantastic sharpeners and wouldn't have any problems recommending the 800/6000 combi as a two-surface, single stone, overall solution. Not a very definite answer, is it?

Remember that you're not really sharpening with the 6000, you're polishing out the scratches left by the 800. Use a light touch. Also, you'll want to thoroughly deburr after the 800 and raise as little burr as possible on the 6000.

You're going to use up the 800 side pretty quickly while you're learning to sharpen. Don't worry too much about better and best equipment for now. Once you've learned to sharpen well enough that you're confident about getting a sharp, reasonably well polished edge, every time you approach the stone, it will be time to revisit the question -- and the 800 will be about gone, too.

Is this your oilstone? BEAR SILICON CARBIDE COMBINATION STONE - MODEL KS108 - CUTLERY - SHARPENING - The Best - Camping Gear | Tactical Equipment | Police Gear Security | Military | Survival | Combat Clothing | Backpacks | Navigation | Army Surplus | Boots | Knives | Austr. Well, it seems to be a good day for "Stump BDL," because I don't know enough about your stone to guess how fine the "fine side" is. It may not be any finer than your 800# waterstone surface.

More generally, if you use oil or even soap when sharpening on an oilstone, it's not a good idea to move to a waterstone, as contaminants carried to the waterstone can clog it, and/or shorten its life considerably.

BDL


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## kalach (Aug 18, 2009)

Yep that's the oilstone I have at the moment.
The DMT hone I mentioned claims to be ceramic not diamond if that helps, see link http://www.everten.com.au/product/DMT-Ceramic-Steel-Fine-300.html
Haven't searched for the idahone yet, getting late, I'll get on to that tomorrow night.
I use the oilstone dry so cross-contamination shouldn't be an issue, guess I'll have to wait for the new stones to arrive before I see if the old one gives me any middle-ground between them.
Oh, most of my recent questions were refering to the new mac i'll be getting rather that the forschner if that changes anything.
And lastly as I said would I be able to use the 6k stone to touch up the edge between real sharpenings, or would it just slightly polish a dulling edge?
Thanks


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The DMT rod you linked me to certainly looks good; and the description says all the right things. I like the "unbreakable" part a lot. Worth a try, I guess.

Whether or not it's the right grit, and whether or not you sharpen dry (as I do too when using oilstones) your SiC stone is probably too slow to be worthwhile on the MAC. Try it of course; but I'd be surprised if it's much of a help. Let me know.

6K is probably too sharp to touch up anything other than an already sharp edge. It doesn't cut fast enough to put a fresh edge on a dulling blade with light pressure -- but increase the pressure even a little bit and you'll create a burr. What you want for touching up is a mid-grit stone in the 3K area, or a fine steel. 

The stone will reveal fresh metal when used with a light touch, and is also a good grit to pull a fresh wire, chase it, then deburr it. 

The steel will scuff up the blade a little and create micro-serrations. The knife will cut effectively, but with more "bite." The edge won't actually be sharper, just act that way -- which is usually enough. That DMT description reads like it should be just the ticket. 

Also, you can use a few strokes on a fine honing-rod like the Idahone (and presumably the DMT) between the 800 as a sort of transition, and to make sure the wire is well and truly chased (flips easily from side to side) before deburring. If I were using an 800/6000 combi, I'd completely deburr with a steel and wine cork, steel and endgrain, or steel and felt block, between the 800 and 6000 surfaces. Then, try not to pull a burr on the 6000; but deburr anyway, this time either without the honing rod.

For the little it's worth, I use two honing rods. One is a HandAmerican (ultra fine) borosilcate rod for deburring and for truing a sharp, polished edge. It's an incredibly good tool. But it's too expensive, and at the moment seems impossible to find even in the US. The other is a very old Henckels which started "fine," and has worn down since to extra-fine. I use it for edges which have worn enough that a simple truing is insufficient.

BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The DMT CS2 is a terrific hone! I've used one for quite a while. Funny, I recently sold mine, though. My work kit contained a glass hone and two ceramics (don't ask...:lol- one day I used it to demonstrate the proper method of honing a coworkers Shun and he offered to buy it on the spot. It really wasn't for sale, but then again everything is for sale at a price. I'd been thinking of swapping out it out for an Idahone anyway, just to save space (I mean the little 8" one with the plastic sleeve).

The DMT does need "broken in" or whatever you want to call it. The instructions allude to this. You get a bit of "smoke" looking residue until it's been used a bit. I simply used some fine grit sandpaper on it. It's ceramic-over-aluminum, making it really sturdy- you're not gonna hurt it by dropping it. Probably can't say that about my Hand America Glass Hone.


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## evan1111 (Jan 15, 2010)

BDL, as it happens, Keith at HandAmerican is manufacturing the glass rods again, as of last week. Current price w/ the black acrylic handle and leather sheath is $75. I'd link to the site, but don't yet have the requisite five posts; but handamerican.com main page has a link to the order page.

I've been using it to maintain the factory edges on newly-acquired Hattori forum FH gyuto and an akifusa petty ... and to practice deburring etc on older German knives I'm using to learn the edge pro system. Works beautifully ...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Evan,

Glad to hear Keith is up and running again. Thanks for the heads up. $75 is a good deal compared to how expensive the glass rod used to be. But $95 for the borosilicate + the Idahone is "such a deal."

Keith and I have corresponded on a "two hone" kit and both of us feel it's the way to go for knives which are amenable to steeling -- if you can afford it. His second hone is an Idahone, mine a worn down Henckels fine -- and we both use them when our edges can use a little scuffing to go a little longer between sharpening on the stones.

I'm glad to hear you're using your rod to deburr; and would like to think I had something to do with popularizing the steel for the purpose. Where did you first get the idea?

I must have at least five posts by now, so let me post HA's rod-hone link for you: HandAmerican borosilicate & Idahone honing rods

PM me your email addy, and I'll send you a .pdf of a review of the borosilicate posted on Fred's Cutlery Forum awhile ago.

BDL


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## evan1111 (Jan 15, 2010)

BDL,

Yes indeed, your posts here and at Fred's were indispensable ... I'd literally never have known about the benefits of the glass rod otherwise. I didn't order the Idahone from Keith, since the Edge Pro Apex already includes an 8" version ... but Keith did send along one of his 1" hard felt blocks for deburring use as well. 

So let me just echo what many here have already expressed: your knowledge, time and patience in sharing your insights are invaluable to those of us just entering the wonderful world of sharpness. Thanks.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I know some are of the opinion that a ceramic hone isn't appropriate for deburring, that you're essentially just standing the burr up as opposed to removing it. I don't share that opinion, however. IMO the Idahone is a tremendous weapon in the war against the burr. I often use it in conjunction with rock hard felt (and wine corks and/or a brass rod when things get really hairy).


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi all !

Kalach, I'll use your thread again, you 've just been too kind last time :thumb: !

I've been happy enough to put a hand on the Korin video ( Korin_-_The_Chefs_Edge_-_Japanese_Knife_Sharpening) yesterday and I'd like to ask a few questions about a technique they use in the vid. 

You all know that to help a beginner keep the right angle when sharpening on the stone, a common tip is to use 2 small coins and put them under the spine of the knife. This should give a rough 15° angle to the blade.

Well, in the documentary, they sharpen an asymmetric edge on a guyto (western style japanese knife ). And to respect the 2 different angles of the knife, the recommandation is to use 2 coins for the top ( front ) of the knife, and 3 for the back.
This, I guess, is a way to have a 15° angle on one side, and 20° on the other or something like that. 
BDL, in an other thread, recommended this for a Sabatier :
Now here are my questions:
@BDL: is this asymmetry you mention the same concept than the one they show in the video ?

@everybody ( BDL included) : assuming the answer to the previous question is yes: on a 50/50 angle knife ( my global for instance, and later on the sabatier when it arrives ), what kind of stone is to be used to create a 40/60 asymmetric edge ? Could the #1500 grit stone I own do the job, or are we already in some kind of reshaping task that would requiere a rougher stone, and /or great skills ?

Also, and totally out of subject: can I smash garlic/ginger with the global G5 I own ?

by advance, many thanks to all of you who would take some time to answer.

regards,
GK


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey GK!

In your post, you asked Sort of.

The guy who did Korin's video is a great sharpener, almost legendary as those things go. Even so, I don't think most chef's knives (including gyutos) do very well with two different angles. In the video, he's sharpening at around 10* on one side, and 15* on the other. That makes for a very sharp edge, but not one that will last very long or is easy to maintain. Especially if there's a rod hone (aka "steel") involved in the maintenance.

I suggest the same edge angle on each side.

When sharpeners talk about 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 asymmetry, they could be referring in part to different angles. Usually though, they're just referring to how far off center the apex of the edge is, relative to the center of the knife's vertical axis; and how far up the bevel shoulders extend relative to one another.

As matters of mathematics, definition and tautological necessity those things are the same. As a practical matter, you see the different widths of the bevels, and feel the effects of the off-centeredness.

Also, I don't favor the "coin" method. Unless you can do a little trig, and have the spine of your knife marked at places along it's length that are signficant for the blade's width at that point -- it's inconsistent. I also don't like edge guide clamps for the same reason. Rather, I suggest making pictures and cutouts of the angle you want to use and placing them along your sharpening so you can visually check as you go. Admittedly it's not very exact, but (a) it doesn't pretend to be; and (b) you get very consistent with practice.

You also asked, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that 60/40 would be a lot better than 50/50. It's a subtle difference. But it's the best kind of subtle differences. That is, a 60/40 right handed bias will make things a little better for a righty, but won't hurt a lefty much at all. For instance, Linda's a righty, I'm a lefty, and I sharpen our chef's knife 60/40 righty. And even though I do nearly all the cutting in our house, I don't notice the bias as a handicap.

The easiest way to create a little asymmetry is to sharpen one side more than the other every time you sharpen. After a few sessions, you'll be at 60/40.

More generally though, if it's something you do often and/or something you want to do all at once, it's a good idea to have a coarse stone. You don't want to do much work on one stone for two reasons. First, it dishes the stone which requires a lot of flattening to control. Second, it's fatiguing and holding a constant angle becomes impossible.

A 1500 is not really a standalone considering which knives you're planning to use. You'll want both a coarser stone and something finer. A coarse stone is more likely to be the one you'd actually NEED next. But, while you don't absolutely need them, you'll get immediate benefits out of a finer stone -- at least as soon as you learn how to polish and not dull (takes some practice.) Something in the 5K to 6K range would be ideal. Better to add the coarse stone after the fine one teaches you consistent angle holding.

The current "state of the art," seems to be pointing towards moderately coarse stones in the 400# to 500# range, rather than very coarse. There are a lot of reasons why -- worth a separate post if you have a burning desire to know about them -- otherwise just take it on faith.

We can't meaningfully discuss specific stones without knowing your price range and enough about your country to figure out how much it will cost to put them in your hands.

More _Ja. Mais biensur. Da. Por supuesto. Sim. Hai. _No problem.

BDL


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi BDL, and thank you for the quick and extensive answer !

Yes, he looks serious at the task. I may use this video as a reference for my sharpening learning path .

Does that mean that you avoid honing steels for honing, but just use them to clear off the burr of the blade after sharpening, as you mentionned earlier in the thread ?
Also in the Korin vodeo, no reference is made to honing steel. They don't use them in Japan ?
If so, how do they tru the edge ?

This is ok for me, but then ...

...
...yes, this seems a subtle material to work on, and gives sharpening a little spice :lol: .
But may I ask WHY it cuts better ? I quite understand why using different angles allow to decrease the global angle of the edge, keeping it relatively tough ( am I right in thinking so btw ?) . But what 'physical' improvement in sharpness do you get moving off the edge from the vertical center of the knife ? (if I'm a pain in the a.., please don't hesitate to let me know  )

Yes, I guess I'll save some steel of my knifes  .

If she had any doubts left, I think my wife will *really *think I'm crazy after that :lol: ! 
More seriously, I tried the coins trick las time, and didn't scratch my knife. Actually, I just laid the knife on the coins to get the angle, and then try to keep the image in mind so I could respect the angle all along the stone. Not that easy though to have a stable and fixed wrist !

Ahah, I don't wanna torture you more than I already do :smoking: ! I'll take it on faith then, even though I was more thinking that #800 was the coarse standard .

I'm actually in France, and the german site you linked me to has, for what I 've seen so far, the best prices for stones. I'll certainly end up buying there when I get some extra €€ to spend in knives and knives care tools . But I was thinking the next real thing I need was a paring knife, as I use my table knives to get the job done. So if I'm happy with the sabatier chef's knife, I might aswell get the 10cm paring one from the oldy carbon steel serie.

Might look like a silly question, but I saw the Henkels video (chef Jim Shiebler demonstrating ) , and he really 'punches' the chef knife and wathever is unlucky enough to be underneath ! As I didn't know this technic , I was curious to know if it could apply to a knife like mine.

So, did I say thank you already ?
Please let me know what you think about all this ,

regards,
GK


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey GK,

Ideally, one reference of many. There are a lot of ways to sharpen. Copy, experiment, mix, match, and develop the one(s) which work best for you.

No. I have two steels, one ultrafine borosilicate glass, and the other a very-fine stee rod; and use both for honing. I use the ultrafine until the knife has worn enough to need a little "scuff" to create some micro-serration, then switch to the other.

[quote} Also in the Korin vodeo, no reference is made to honing steel. They don't use them in Japan ? [/quote] Depends on the type of knife, and (of course) its user. Some knives are too hard or too asymmetrically sharpened to be steeled. Neither of those things are likely to ever be an issue with you unless you become a hobbyist and start collecting traditional, "chisel" edged, Japanese knives.

Ordinary sharpening. If all the knife needs is truing and to have the edge slightly refreshed (which happens more often than it needs serious sharpening), the "touch up" is usually begun on a middle grit-level stone such as an aoto or 3K, or even finer.

The relatively narrower width at the short side's bevel shoulder makes for (a) less wedging, and (b) thinner acts sharper.

By "global angle" I presume you mean the cumulative angle of both sides. FWIW, it's called the "included angle," while the angle of a given side is called the "edge angle."

Narrower cuts better; but only a little better at the degree of asymmetry we're talking about here.

It becomes second nature.

Unless you keep and use a LOT of stones, every grit is something of a compromise. 800# is a fast and useful as a first sharpening stone; but a little on the slow side for heavy duty profile and/or repair; also, it leaves a fairly coarse finish which really wants an intermediate stone to both refine the sharpening and start the polishing processes.

Paranthetically, I'm ambivalent about an 800#/6000# combination stone as a single solution. It's usable, but also one of those things where difficult equipment goes to beginners because they're relatively inexpensive. 800 -> 2500 -> (and ultimately) 8000 or 10000 would suit you and your knives better. My water stone kit's progression is 500 -> 1200 -> 3000 -> 8000 (all my old Sabs can handle). The grit jumps are a near ideal compromise for efficient sharpening, polishing, and economical number of stones. By the time you get the hang of the 6K, you'll have money saved and be ready to add some stones.

One of best sharpeners, if not the single best sharpener, I know uses a Bester 700 as his primary "coarse" stone. I use a Beston 500 water stone, or a Coarse India oilstone (about 125#, tricky to use without scratching, and very slow for the grit) as my coarse stones -- reserved for profile/repair; a Bester 1200 as my first sharpening water stone; and a Fine India or soft Arkansas as my first sharpening oilstones (don't use oil, though).

Yes. Dieter Schmid has a good rep. There's another guy in Holland who's supposed to be good too, but I forget the name.

The modern trend is towards "petty knives" ("petty naifu" in Japanese, truly), between 12 and 18cm in length, regular "couteau office" shape. If you're looking at the Nogent at The Best Things, the 6" slicer is an excellent example. I use one myself.

FWIW, the short Nogent paring knives, like that 10cm, are incredibly nice -- their handles are large enough to actually be comfortable. That said, short paring knives get used up quickly on the stones. Forschners, to name one brand, come in a multitude of useful shapes besides couteau office; get very sharp very easily; and are cheap enough to throw away without regret when they get whittled down. The disposable, serrated Forschners are also pretty good. A box should last you a lifetime.

Yes. Within reason. Be very sure you're holding the knife in such a way that the flat comes down flat on the board. You don't want to put extra pressure on the tip because it will bend, as would a Henckels'.

De rien, 
BDL


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

It amazes me that when I see all the cooks where I am sharpen their knives. All of them hold the knive almost flat to the stone. I was always taught you had to establish a pitch or angle. Anyway mine are 5 times sharper then theirs and some of mine are over 30 to 40 years old.(the old carbon steel Forschners and sabatiers) Some of these kids spend $ 125 to 180 per blade, to me, thats insanity.


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Bonsoir BDL, and thanks for the answer.

Things are more clear now on what kind of set I should get for the maintenance of my knives, and how different angle settings work.

Now, and as I figured out that the Global G5 I use has a convex edge, I saw there ( Knife Maintenance and Sharpening - eG Forums ) that there was a trick ( the mousepad one you certainly know ) that would help keeping the convex form. 
How does this convex shape compares with the straight 15° angle you recomand? 
Is the mousepad trick a good way to get this particular shape ( or any other shape )? 
Are there other ways to go the convex way ?

@Ed B.
Give those guys this forum link ! Their life will change 

Thanks in advance,
GK


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm guilty as charged!:lol: The most I've dropped on a single knife is $300, but I foresee exceeding that eventually (I've been lusting over this Tanaka for quite awhile, and one day I'll give in...). The bulk of my knives fall in the $100-$200 range. Obviously you can get decent knives somewhat cheaper but for me knives are as much a hobby as a kitchen tool.


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi, 
a little more on BDL feedback:
hum, I'm seriously feeling attracted to some of those master pieces of japanese cutlery. The short time will not see me getting one of them, but this should come someday. For now, I'll be pragmatic, and go for what I need ( paring knife, knife care tools, and good training in sharpening ). Next will come the time for hobbying. I think it's being very lucky to be able to enjoy pieces of art, that also can be used on a daily basis in the kitchen. We're found of beautifull, usefull and efficient objects.

Well, I might live without a steel then. I have no heavy work to do with my knives, and I'm sure I'll always find 5mins to take the stone out and train my skills, sharpening or truing an edge 

I meant that, but didn't have a clue on that part of knives anatomy . I recommand to the ones intersted in those details the Chad Ward article : Knife Maintenance and Sharpening - eG Forums . The article is full of interesting information about sharpening. Another inspiring source.

I should go for this one or just a little coarser anyway. I don't see myself doing too much profiling. If I'm ever in need of repairing, I should buy a coarser one at that time, as they are cheap and easy to find.

I think I'll really go insane and go on with the knife collection, and get myself a nice paring knife  . I was thinking of another Sabatier Canadian massif, but with a different wood than african blackwood for the handle. This would personnalize the knife a little bit, and I already confirmed with the TI factory that this would be no problem .

I tried that yesterday, and it worked fine. I'm just not gonna be able to do it with the Sab, as the blade isn't wide enough for me to punch it safely .

@Phaedrus: we might all be the same ! It's good sometimes to just let it go. It's like everything else. When you like something, the sky might be the limit ... As I said earlier, some of those knives are masterpieces of craftmanship . There might not be any Picasso or Stradivarius at home (even though I deeply regret it ), but there might sometimes be a beautifull knife made by a traditional blacksmith senseï from Japan, devoted to his art and skill. 
<-- ( romantism inside  )

Regards,
GK


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Don't get wound up about it. If you want a masterpiece, $180 isn't going to do it. And the chances that you will ever be able to tell the difference, in the cutting, between a masterpiece and a perfectly ordinary, serviceable, professional-grade knife are slim.

There are four single-beveled knife styles worth considering, if you're thinking about spending money and collecting and so forth: yanagiba, usuba, deba, kiritsuke.

Yanagiba: slicer for soft flesh, i.e. fish
Usuba: all-purpose vegetable/fruit knife
Deba: fish-butchering knife
Kiritsuke: all-purpose slicer

You do NOT want an usuba, unless you want it as a hobby. It's a nightmare to use, very expensive to purchase, hard to maintain, and strictly limited to vegetables.

You only want a deba if you're going to butcher your own fish, since that's about all it does.

If you're into collecting, don't bother with a kiritsuke, which is kind of a recent thing. You won't find much in the way of "masterpieces" of this style.

That leaves you with the yanagiba, which is basically not especially useful if you don't slice your own sashimi. It's also expensive, difficult to maintain, and very difficult indeed to "open" (to sharpen the first time). But because of the sushi revolution, every top maker produces these things.

Now what will a really good yanagiba cost you? Er... brace yourself.

When I was preparing to leave Japan, I decided, what the hey, and invested. I got a friend to help me buy a high-end knife through complicated means I won't explain but that entailed that the knife was sold without a brand name, drastically reducing the price. We have reason to think that this knife, if it had acquired its normal brand name, would have been sold as a Masamoto or Sakai Takayuki. It is blue #2 steel, top-notch within the realm of sanity (#1 steel is so expensive and difficult to work that it's very rarely used). I had a heavy Japanese oak (itchii) handle placed on it, to balance the 300mm blade. I had a hard-core expert crazy who's also a friend do the opening; his assessment is that this is one of the finest kasumi (2-layer bonded) yanagiba he's dealt with. Grand total, if I had bought this the way you would have to -- that is, off the shelf from Masamoto or somebody like that -- including the handle and opening, this knife would run you about $400-$500. (I didn't pay anything like that, before you ask.)

But you wanted a masterpiece, right? Okay, so you probably want an ebony handle, not itchii. You probably want honyaki, meaning it's solid steel rather than kasumi-bonded. Let's not fuss about #1 steel, which is just silly. And you want it from a top-notch maker, someone who really takes pride in his work and all that. How much?

Um, are you sure you want to know?

Off the rack, right now, you can buy one of these from Masamoto -- model HA0430K -- for the low, low price of...

$2300

Let's not worry about the roughly $50 for the opening. If you're dropping this kind of cash, $50 is nothing.

If you want to go down-market to Aritsugu Tokyo -- an extremely good brand without quite the cache of Masamoto -- you can have it for about $1400:








Pretty, huh?

Why am I telling you all this? Because the state of discourse in this thread has hung in the $100-$300 range, but you're talking about masterpieces of cutlery wonderfulness. And I want to indicate that for masterpieces, this price range is off by a factor of 10!

Now I should wrap up by just noting that in no case are we talking about an individual hand-made masterpiece, done by one master, just for you. In that case, assuming you could get someone of that kind to make such a knife for you, you're talking another factor of roughly 5 to 10, depending on who the maker is. On the other hand, knives from Masamoto, Sakai Takayuki, Aritsugu, and so on are basically handmade by individual craftsmen, but for contractual reasons, you will almost never know quite who those craftsmen are.

If you buy knives in this sort of class, upwards of $1000 and considered worth it by certain high-end pros in Japan, you'd better get awfully good with a sharpening stone. And you'd better plan to lay out for the best, too, because you want to protect your investment.

Of course, if you just want to CUT something, all this is pretty much pointless....


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi Chris, and thanks for the feedback.

Fine to know what range of prices to expect when it comes to the kind of knife I was hoping to get sometimes .Actually, now that I got an idea of what it costs, I might never get one  .

You're right. But to me, once you've decided to spend more than what a forshner could cost ( I say forshner because it seems optimum on the price/quality factor, but this could be any other knife of this type ), it means you're buying something more than an cutting tool. This is also when you cross some kind of subjective line where your ideas about knives will go far beyond the mer question of cutting food. 
Those considerations of course might not be valid for professional chefs that will be judging knives from antoher point of view.

I take the point . I'm certainly too romantic, and wish I could find in smaller size and for too few bucks the kind of skill shown here for katana making :YouTube - fabrication katana part1
(please enjoy the video, it's a real delight if you can live with the samurai's lives reconstitution shots )

Anyway, I think I'll run in troubles soon:
Actually, as a vegetarian, this is the only knife of the four you name that makes sense for me to have ! I know about the nakiri ,but to me, if I go japanese, I'd rather go with two feet. Hollow back side , single bevel, hagane, those things sound like a poem to me !

Although you name the usuba a nighmare here, you didn't seem to always think so  
. <-- from Usuba Argh! - Foodie Forums , you'll have recognized .
I think I'll be happy to walk the path to mastering it when I got one .

Also, and next on my wish list is the chinese cleaver. You might have some insight about this kind of knife to share ! 
Feedback about usuba and chinese cleaver will be greatly appreciated !

thanks, 
GK


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Aha! Now you're talking.

Strict vegetarian, eh? No use for fish knives? Perfect. You can save up and blow it on an usuba. You sound like just the kind of nut who will enjoy it. My kind of crazy! Pardon me if I tried to steer you away: I figured I was looking at a very unhappy combination, someone willing to spend a great deal on a knife who would then end up with something almost completely unusable. This is different.

Here's my suggestion. You'll like it.

When you decide you're flush, hunt around on the web for a kamagata usuba, 210mm, in your handedness (I hope you're a righty or OUCH!), made by Aritsugu or Masamoto. I just did a little search, and I'm getting Masamoto prices around $375. I didn't happen to spot anyone selling Aritsugus like this, but they list for about $100+ less than equivalent Masamotos. You want hon-kasumi, shiro-ko (white steel); in Masamoto, that means the KS0721, while Aritsugu's basic model number here is us011 and then you specify the length. Aritsugu doesn't do a distinction between kasumi and hon-kasumi, but that's a pretty fuzzy distinction anyway. Your ideal here would be to buy one gently used from a knife nut who's got it tuned up, but whatever. If it hasn't been opened (i.e. it's new), you'll have to pay someone to do that for you; I advise searching the hard-core knife forums -- Fred's Cutlery Forum is excellent -- to find someone who will take it on, but wait until you've placed your order.

A few remarks about what I'm suggesting here:

1. It's going to cost you about $400+ for Masamoto, and maybe $250+, even $300+, for Aritsugu. No, you won't have a super-duper-ultra-masterpiece, but you will have a very, very fine knife. Like butt-kicking sort of fine, the kind of thing high-end pros like.

2. You don't want honyaki at this stage: too expensive, too hard to maintain without an awful lot of practice. You don't want ao-ko (blue steel): it is less forgiving when it comes to chipping, and when you get started with an usuba you're going to need all the forgiving you can get.

3. You want kamagata: if you're going to get an usuba, get a proper one. The only guys who really live by these things any more are Kyoto kaiseki chefs, so get the kind they like. Tokyo -- blech. (okay, yes, I'm prejudiced -- still, the point on a kamagata is very useful)

4. You're going to need excellent sharpening stones, and unfortunately, usubas being usubas, you're going to need a pretty full set -- you're going to chip it. My favorite set happens to be 400 - 800 - 2000 Chocera, then some kind of high-grit polishing stuff at around 6000 and again 10,000. That set of Choceras will be pricey but not ludicrous; they get stupid-expensive when you go much above 2000. If you invest in these, and mostly keep your usuba sharp, you will rarely use anything lower than the 2000 -- mostly only when you've screwed up.

5. You would be well advised to make a habit of polishing the knife more or less daily on a very high-grit stone. Every serious pro who lives by the usuba does this, and I for one am not going to argue with them. Bear in mind, again, that these are exactly the knives a lot of those guys use 24/7.

6. Buy every book you can find on how to use the thing. You need all the help you can get, I assure you. I can give you some Japanese references -- ISBNs and stuff you can order from Amazon -- where you can follow along with the pictures, which are 95% of the books anyway. If you get friendly with a Japanese-trained Japanese-cuisine chef (note that both points matter a lot here), you may want to ask for advice and guidance; you may also find that your friend quickly redirects you to someone else, because the usuba is a dying art and not everyone, even Japanese-trained Japanese-cuisine guys, has much clue how to use one -- especially sushi chefs.

7. DO NOT give in to temptation and use any other knife for anything that does not require heavy brutality -- cleaving pumpkins in half is the classic no-no on the usuba. Everything, but everything, that doesn't require such brutality should be done with the usuba. If you're just cooking at home, and not under major time pressures often, you should seriously consider putting every other knife you own -- except for that Chinese cleaver, which will come in handy as a brutality knife -- in a sealed box in the basement. That way you get rid of temptation. No paring knives, no slicers, no nothing. You'll thank me in a year; before that you'll probably fairly often want to kill me.

8. If, at the end of a year or two, you adore this thing, start saving your pennies. By the end of two or three or four years, when you are really pretty good with this knife, and you've been polishing and grinding and fixing it constantly, it's going to be rather battered. These are among the best -- they can take it. But you'll have dinged it quite a bit along the way, and had to fix it, and so it'll have a lot more wear than it deserves. So eventually you're going to want to start over. At that point, take a tip from the Kyoto kaiseki guys and buy 225mm. If you have the cash, go ahead and buy honyaki, but don't feel that it's especially necessary or even important -- it's not. You can make up your own mind about white or blue steel at that point, but in my opinion you'll still want the shiroko. Masamoto's version, the HS0722, will set you back at least $900; Aritsugu's, us008 225mm, will be more like $625 or so, minimum. By this point you'll probably be able to open it yourself, and will get pleasure out of it, so that helps. If you go honyaki, you'll probably never wear it out, and you can revel in the pleasure of what has to be pretty much the Ferrari of usubas.

Sound like fun? Told you -- you're a nut! :thumb:


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Argh !!! I feel like crying  
It's too late here to get back to you as you deserve it, but you'll here from me very soon ...

BTW 
Looks like I got a friend :smoking: , 

and yes, it sounds like loads of fun !

GK


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## elate (Jan 23, 2010)

The cooking Knives need to be sharpen everytime and it
can't be kept it blend.. Am I right...


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

*"That leaves you with the yanagiba, which is basically not especially useful if you don't slice your own sashimi. It's also expensive, difficult to maintain, and very difficult indeed to "open" (to sharpen the first time)."*

I often wonder why some seem to feel this way about the Yanagi. It's just a Japanese slicer. Use it on any thing you would use any slicer for. 
Any reputable dealer, Korin for example should open the knife, not that all brands or series need that. There is no question in my mind that most who do not cut a lot of fish will be better served with a Suji however if the OP is a romantic sort of knife nut it's very hard to pass up the allure of a Yanagi. I'll leave a link to a fairly funny thread on the topic from another forum.
I don't think we could over emphasize the fact that when it comes to knife selection there are very few absolutes. We each just roll with what works for us. Try to catch an Iron Chef episode some time and watch Chef Morimoto wield that Yanagi! The only thing I would add about a Yangi is that 270mm for me is just about perfect. I wouldn't want to go shorter than that.

Yanagiba Versatility - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB

*"It's going to cost you about $400+ for Masamoto, and maybe $250+, even $300+, for Aritsugu. No, you won't have a super-duper-ultra-masterpiece, but you will have a very, very fine knife. Like butt-kicking sort of fine, the kind of thing high-end pros like."
*
IMO the knives in this price range are the real deal and tools of beauty. Sure I like to look at the puurdy stuff as well but I have seen countless others buy more expensive knives and then never use them. I don't get that at all. I would love to add a Suisin Hayate to my harem but I might have to come sleep on some one elses couch for a week after! :lol:
The Masamoto KS series to me really is working art. 
Chris hit the nail on the head about stones.


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi Chris, and thanks again for the long and complete answer !

Let me give you some more infos/impressions

Argh, this is a tough begining !! Pricewise speaking, the jump to this knife will be a serious step to take. Apart from saving the pennies, will I be able to convince my wife that we ( actually I ) need this knife ?

Now, I think I got geeky about knives 2 years ago. I'm not sure how it began, but I started to inform myself about what a nice kitchen knife should be. A year after, I got a big bargain on a Global G5, and this was until last week my first and only knife . Then, after reading a lot of thread on this forum and on others, I thought that DBL could'nt be wrong, and I ordered a nice Sabatier carbon steel chef knife.
The knife hobby has began. 
So I thought I could peacefully take time to master the Sabatier, then switch to a chinese cleaver just for the fun of trying to master a new knife, and then go to the father of them all, the usuba ! But you're putting lots of pressure on me  ! Will I have to abandon my new Sabatier, never get this chinese cleaver that looks so weird but is so polyvalent , not to mention this little pre-war steel paring knife I was planning to get from Sabatier ?? I can't bear the suspens , and with so many dilemnas, my life turned out a nightmare  !!

More seriously, the big issue is of course the money it would cost. Is there no 'serious' starter usuba for a bit less ? I hardly see myself investing more than 150/200 $ (roughly 120/160 €), and not in the short term anyway.

So, to come back to your suggestions:
Won't do, at least now 

Fine, I can live with that. Let's keep the pro configuration for when I'm a pro ( whenever it happens ).

Is it that mandatory ? I'm really fond of the squarish shape of the Tokyo style one. Can I not live without the pointed tip ?

Stones are on the list of my tohaves . I'll be happy to get a complete set over the time, petit à petit. Is there any stone you'd advise me from this site ( they're cheap and have no taxes issue as they're in europe ): Japanese Waterstones and other Sharpening Tools or should I exclusively go for Chosera ?

This looks like a great deal of maintenance. This must be the price for excellence !

Yes, I really like to know what things are about, and books have always been a great vehicle of knowledge. Please go on for the references so I can document myself fully. This is gonna be an afordable approach of the beast.
OTOH, I don't think I'll find a Japanese cuisine trained chef . I'm not too often hanging around japanese restaurants, but if that happens, I'll remember your advice and try to get every hint I can from those chefs I could meet.

Nice program ! I guess the only way to learn how to use a tool. Will I wanna kill you sometimes ? I think I'm big enough to assume the complete responsibility of my masochisme  , and I'm actually thanksfull for all the insight you're giving.

Pffui! big money again ! we'll speak again about it in 10 years from now 

Yes indeed :smoking: .

Regards,
GK


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

BDL , of course ...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Mais biensur. However, I have it on good authority that BDL (or "I" as I like to call me) can be wrong.

Thanks for the implied compliment about my imputed wisdom, too.

Speaking of BDL, he (I) is (am) going to stay out of the whole traditional Japanese knife discussion because I (he) know(s) so little a bout it other than to note:

As good as Chris is on the subject (and he's _very good_), if you're serious about getting into traditional, chisel-edged Japanese knives, you're ready for a forum with a deeper and wider knowledge base than this one has on the subject. By all means, join Fred's Cutlery Forum on the Foodie Forums, Fred's Cutlery Forum - Foodie Forums, and start asking around there.

At the end of the day, if I were committed to making a transition to traditional Japanese knives, I'd follow much of Chris's advice pretty closely. But that's me. I've been reading lots of stuff written by lots of people for a long time. You, on the other hand, should probably seek more input before firing up the credit card.

However, I'm not committed to any such transition. I've got enough of a challenge refining my use of the French knives I already have. And, in my opinion the chef's/gyuto is the most useful and versatile knife made and the best choice for nearly all kinds of cooking -- especially western. My suggestion is to get the best chef's you can reasonably afford, learn to sharpen it very well, and use it for a long time before moving on to traditional Japanese styles. Unless, that is, you're more interested in the knives themselves than in the cooking. Just a suggestion.

In the same way the first rule of medicine is "do no harm," the sine qua non of knife skills is sharpening. It doesn't matter what kind of kinife. Also, did you know that I only go beyond hinting to actually recommending French carbon when specifically asked? It's great stuff but not for everyone. You, I think, will find it very rewarding.

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't understand -- can you restate?

Knives need to be sharpened as often as they need it for your needs. (Isn't that helpful?) It is traditional for Japanese pros to sharpen every day, but that's to some degree overkill, if you ask me.

As to "can't be kept it blend," I don't know what you mean.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

First, listen to BDL and check out Fred's Cutlery Forum. If you're thinking seriously about making this shift, you do need a wider range of knowledge. That said...

That is a fabulous question to ask at Fred's. The guys there have used a much wider range of knives than I have, and know the US markets well -- which I do not. I thought the budget here was bigger than it is, apparently.
This is one of the reasons an usuba is so irritating, a love/hate thing. There's no transitioning into it: it's unlike other knives. That's not some kind of romanticism, it's just very oddly shaped, and it doesn't act like other knives. In point of fact, the sooner you make the transition, if you're going to make it, the less you will develop habits with normal knives that have to be unlearned with the usuba.

I would certainly get the cleaver, because they're cheap and will do yeoman service, not only now but in the future as brutality knives. The Sabatier, well, I leave that one to BDL, but certainly it will be remarkably unlike the usuba.
Yes, certainly there are such knives. But I don't know what is and isn't available in the US or UK markets, at what prices. Ask at Fred's -- you won't regret it.

Actually, you're misreading slightly. An Aritsugu hon-kasumi usuba IS a pro knife. I know a top-end kaiseki chef whose kitchen uses these exclusively.

Well, this is certainly a matter of opinion. I'll give my reasons for advocating kamagata:

1. The pointed tip is very useful, and since you won't have any other knife but a heavy brutality thing, it's hard to pass up.

2. The only Japanese chefs who reliably live or die by the usuba these days are Kyoto kaiseki chefs. They use the kamagata shape. So if you're going to use this knife and no other, I say go with the experts.

3. All things Kyoto are superior to all things Tokyo, because Kyoto is the center of the Japanese universe and Tokyo is clearly a hellhole with nothing to recommend it. I'm not prejudiced -- these are obviously objective truths.

A truly fabulous question for the gang at Fred's. But my basic take is that if you're going to sharpen a single-bevel knife at high grit really, really constantly, you need a stone that will do most of the work for you without trouble. No, Chocera is not the only way to go, by any means -- Naniwa SuperStone is the obvious second choice, and for some it's the first choice.

Actually, daily sharpening of an usuba is not a lot of maintenance. The reason is that you barely need to do anything if you do it that often. Basically you take a high-grit stone, wet it, put that big flat bevel on it, and rub evenly back and forth 5 times, working all the way up the blade. Flip it over flat on the back, rub evenly 5 times, do the front a little more if you feel it needs it, then deburr and you're done. If your stone can live in water, or if it's a spray-and-go sort of thing, the whole process will take very little time. And if you do it every day, in about 2 weeks I'd guess it will take maybe 4-5 minutes, tops.

I'll get back to you on this -- and remind me if I don't.

Uh huh. If you make this switch, you're going to hate me.

See you at Fred's!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

GK,

You wrote Naniwa Choseras are excellent stones, throughout their entire range. At any grit level they are one of the very few best. However, at any grit level there are other stones as good and significantly cheaper. 

Putting together a kit petit à petit your best bet is to start with a King or Naniwa SS 1000, add the Suehiro or Naniwa 3000 as the next stone, then the Naniwa 400 (King coarse stone sucks) and finally a Naniwa SS 8K or 10K (depending on which knives you own), in no particular order. 

In terms of an ideal kit (in order of purchase); Bester 1200, Sigma Pro 1000, or Chosera 1000; Naniwa SS 3000; or Nonpareil aoto; Beston 500 or Chosera 400; and Takenoko, Kitayama (fantastic finishing stone, but it only does its best following another finisher), Naniwa Pure White (8K), Naniwa SS 8K, Naniwa SS 10K, or Chosera 10K. 

Chosera price increases with the fineness of the grit, and run from very overpriced to ridiculous. The single quality which most sets Choseras aside from the rest is their speed -- especially noticeable with the 10K. But it's just way too expensive for what it does. 

In the case of the "ideal" set I just wrote about, you'd start nearly all of your sharpening sessions at the 1000 level. The coarse stone doesn't get used that much -- but when you need it, you need it. 

For the price of a Chosera 10K, you could buy a Takenoko AND Kitayama and get a better finish -- that would take you about twice as long. You could save some money by doing a little grit shifting, and still end up with an ideal kit -- if a little slow for profile/repair (tasks you dont do often). That kit would look like: Bester 700, Bester 2000, Takenoko, Kitayama. As a practical matter, you's start with the 2000 about half the time, and finish with the Takenoko on your petty, paring, and butchering knives rather than the Kitayama. 

FWIW, I purchased my waterstone kit, some (barely) used, the Chosera new, at wonderful discounts, from friends' castoffs. It is: Beston 500, Bester 1200, Chosera 3000, and Naniwa SS 8K. 

That said, my ideal beginners kit is straight Naniwa SS, the 10mm stones which are pre-mounted on plastic bases. They are very soft and provide the sort of excellent tactile feedback which will make your learning curve friendlier; easy to use (splash and go); easy to take care of (flatten on drywall screen), wonderful performers; and relatively inexpensive. It's true the 10mm stones don't last as long as 20mm stones. So? You'll grow out of them about the same time you wear them out. In the meantime, excellent stones at a reasonable price. 

When it comes to purchasing stones in and/or for use in Europe... Ask at Fred's. 

BDL


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

There are a few notable differences from my perspective. One is that on a traditional knife with a chisel edge you will not be starting at 1k every time you sharpen. Not even every third or fourth time. That doesn't mean you won't want a stone in the 1k range but you certainly don't need a stone under that to start. The notion that you get more feedback from a plastic base that is of any value after the first time or two that you sharpen is subject to interpretation at best. The super thin stones on plastic bases are about THE most expensive stones that will be mentioned in this thread if you consider life span and value. There is a reason most knife dealers do not carry them on plastic bases but offer the thicker un-mounted SS's instead. In stones under 5k Choseras are only marginally more expensive than SS. 
Once you get over 5k Choseras are pricey and there is just no reason for a noob to drop that sort of cash over the SS.
A kitayama shouldn't even be mentioned in a thread like this. It's not the right direction to start. Not by a long shot. That's a stone that even accomplished sharpeners often can't agree should be praised or cursed and that's a choice you make down the road when you know exactly what you want from a stone.
Now for the splash and go which I think is truly funny stuff yes the SS's are easier, then again it's not exactly toil and trouble to soak a stone for ten minutes or so before you use it. The Chosera is not a thirsty stone. The other thing that should never be over looked with SS's is that they are soft, fragile, can gouge or scratch easy and are resin based unlike the Chosera. That's both good and bad for a starter. I use SS's 5k and up only.
IMO all you need to start is a 1k Chosera or SS and a 5k SS and flattener. From there you can add as you want or need but odds are those two stones will carry you a good ways much to the chagrin of those trying to sell stones. 
In either event I think the best advice is to ask on other forums as well. Don't expect any absolute agreement but it will show you just how much of this is subjective and how each approach is specific to the individual user. 
Take a look around the "In The Kitchen" knife forum as well. There's a ton of good information and some well known sharpeners are regulars.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Couple remarks on stones:

1. I can't take it any more. It's ChoCera, not ChoSera. Actually, it's not -- it's Cho-Ceramics, which means basically SuperDuper - Ceramics. Cho-Cera for short. 'Kay? Oy.

2. DuckFat is dead right: if you're sharpening an usuba constantly, which let's be honest at home means like weekly but really should be more than that, you won't be going down to 1000 grit to start. This changes the way you structure your set, and since you're taking up usubas as a way of life, you might as well do it intelligently now.

Basically every set of stones has 4 parts:

1. The middle stone, which usually starts a session and is the baseline;

2. The polishing stone(s), which refine that #1 stone's edge rather than producing their own;

3. The coarse stone(s), which set up a problem edge for the #1 stone; and

4. The flattening equipment, which sets up the stones.

Now BDL has given you a number of variations on a terrific set... for Western knives. By which I mean double-beveled knives. His #1 stone is a 1000 or 1200, as it is for most folks. But you don't need this -- see above. So where do you go?

Well, if you were sharpening both single-beveled and double-beveled knives regularly, I'd say go with a 2000 that is so fast you can skip the 1000, and that probably does mean a Chocera. But you're not: you're sharpening a single-beveled knife, period.

So I'd say Naniwa SuperStone is the way to go. Because you're a beginner, probably you should not go lower than 2000 for your main stone; a year from now you may have quite a different opinion about this, but it's a good place to start. Fortunately, the primary worry about these stones, which is that they are rather soft, is not a big issue with an usuba: you just lay that big old sheet of metal flat on there and slide it back and forth.

Frankly, a good 2k edge on an usuba is pretty solid. You don't actually need anything more than that. But you'll want it. So for #2, the polishing, the usual rule is don't jump more than about 5x the grit number. That doesn't help: you'd be crazy to go to a lot of trouble finding a stone with more than 10k grit anyway. I'd say stick with Naniwa SS, so the feel is more or less constant. Off the cuff, I think 5k is too small a jump with a 2k starter, and 10k is kinda big, so go with the 8k.

Both a 2k and an 8k together will cost you about $110, give or take. If you treat them decently, they'll last a long time.

For coarse stones, the smart votes seem to be Bester 700 and Beston 500, unless you want to spend a good deal more and go Chocera. But coarse stones aren't generally expensive anyway. And you really hope you're not going to need one much -- fixing an usuba is an unpleasant task. I'd go with the 700 to stay closer to your 2000 baseline. If you ever need a much coarser stone than that, go with the infamous 220 "pink brick."

Luckily, an usuba handled gently is remarkably easy on stones, so flattening isn't going to be a major concern. For starters, get a big thick piece of float glass and some medium wet/dry sandpaper. Spray the glass a lot, lay the sandpaper on it, and sand your stone flat. Do that whenever it seems like your knife is grinding oddly, but that will take a while.

So my suggestions, in order of purchasing:

Naniwa SS 2000 -- $40-$45
Float glass and sandpaper
Naniwa SS 8000 -- $60-$70
Bester 700 -- $40-$45
"pink brick" -- $40-$45

But in my opinion, you will do very well indeed, for a long time to come, on nothing but the 2000 stone.


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hello guys, and thanks for the accurate answers !

Well,there's plenty of feedback to give !
In posts order...

@BDL
no doubt about it, but according to knives and cutting tools in general, you've been showing so far a certain kind of knowledge that resulted very valuable, and more often accurate than not . Also, as I couldn't think of a knife collection without a french representant, your advices about Sabatier were greatly appreciated.

Looks like it's what I'm gonna do. I'll also join Fred's forum, as, for what I've seen so far, is pretty japanese cuttlerie oriented. But at the end of the day pragmatism will be my only guide, and while I document myself for free ( or almost ), I'll have to wait before I take the step toward a switch to serious japanese knife.

Do I have to choose ? As a vegetarian, preparing vegetables will be the only task I'll ask to my knives. so the lack of versatility of the usuba will actually not affect me, and I'll can get both, the knife and the cooking 

I hope I'll find it rewarding ! As I said earlier, you're personnaly responsible of my going to a Sabatier :lol: ! 
While I'm waiting to get the bucks for anything else, I'll try to master the Sabatier. I actually must confess that I don't feel very comfortable with it. I think I somehow got used to the kind of 'nakirish' shape of the G5, and the sabatier feels funny to work with. But I'll bravely stick to the task !

Yes, and actually after a little use, I think that the Sabatier can do better :I'll try to improve this. It's gonna be a good training .

@Chris
I'll post usuba specific questions at Fred's.

Nop, unfortunatly. But as a starter knife, I'm pretty sure something will appear that is at the same time serious enough to give me the proper usuba feeling and not ruin me. By the way, you refer to the US market, but this not the most practical for me, as taxes and shipment can be expensive (I'm in France)

Bah, for everything relative to knives I'm starting from 0 .So everything is pretty good to take. Shall I unlearn later ? No problem, I'm pretty used to changes in life. Also, isn't the spice of life in diversity  ? So I'll gladly go on with my new Sabatier until I sell my soul to a japanese vegetable knife :lol:

I 'll seriously consider your arguments. On the other hand, as I really like the Kanto-style usuba, I'll check at Fred's if someone has objective arguments to counterbalance yours. So when time comes to buy the knife, this might give more weight to my preference towards the higasigata, that so far resumes to 'I find it nicer' .

Is it too soon for a reminder ? 

@ BDL, DuckFat and Chris
On stones you've given plenty of information. I'll digest it and get back to you with a possible plan that fits my purse and geografics constraints

A huge thanks again guy's for the time you're spending here !

regards,
GK


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

*"I can't take it any more. It's ChoCera, not ChoSera. Actually, it's not -- it's Cho-Ceramics, which means basically SuperDuper - Ceramics. Cho-Cera for short. 'Kay? Oy."
*
Chris, Thanks for the correction. Makes perfect sense. Mark must have it wrong on his site for the stones. Easy Typo. I was curious so I checked my stones and the boxes but I can't see Chocera any place in English. 
I noticed a few usubas that may be of interest to GK. The first is a JCK Kagayaki AS. Looks sweet but it is clad so probably a bit thicker than some.
It's also a bit on the short side.

KAGAYAKI Aogami Super Series Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

The second is a Kamagata Usuba from Korin. The Usuba does not really appeal to me but if I were going this route I would surely start with a Kamagata as I know it would be easier for me to work with a knife that has a tip. As an added plus it's only $150 for the 210 so when you take a single 2k SS start like Chris suggested it's pretty much right on budget for the op.

Korin Shiro-ko Kasumi


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi again !

Just a quick one about stones: I've just bought the #1500 sold on JCK ( Whet Stones For Sale Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com ) and this is so far my only stone. Can I live with it ?

@DuckFat, thanks for the links !

regards,
GK


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## goku_knife (Jan 5, 2010)

Here is another thread I should follow closely:
First traditional japanese knives set - Foodie Forums

regards,
GK


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