# UGH. So frustrated with knife shopping, I am ready to just get a Victorinox Fibrox and be done with



## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

*sighs and rubs temples* First post off to a rough start when my browser ate the last hour's worth of composition and work. :/ So, here is the condensed version.

Started my first professional cooking gig as a pantry and prep cook. I am working at a resort where I am expecting to move around throughout the other restaurants through the advancement of this career. So, I would like to start with some solid knives that will grow with me for a while instead of getting something that will be tossed into my kitchen at home as soon as I move out of prep.

My budget has a small amount of wiggle room, but I REALLY don't want to spend more than $200. I would be thrilled to get these for $150 or less. What I need, for sure, is a chef/ french, santuku everyday knife and a very solid bread knife. I already have some little utility knives. We do a TON of club sandwiches (over a dozen on a slow shift) and lots of fresh veggies, lettuce, and fruit that needs to be prepped quickly. I am not sure what kind of prep I will be getting into, as I just started, but I am expecting quite the load.

I have been researching knives for WEEKS and just cannot some to a decision. Whenever I ask Mr. Google a question, I always end up back on this forum, so I finally broke down and signed up to open a discussion about it instead of running around in circles  This forum seems to not only be the most active, it is also seems to have the most unbiased and informed advice!

I grew up with my dad's Wustof Classics, which he swears by. He has had them close to 30 years now. I don't remember being particularly impressed with them growing up, but then again, I also knew very little about cooking and prep, let alone the proper care and respect of good tools. I remember those things were tough and solid, and went through some serious abuse. All of his knives, even the small ones, have a few scars but are still intact and very usable. I don't remember them being particularly sharp, despite the fact I know he used the steel often. He may not have made a very sharp edge because there were kids in the house, I really don't know. I don't remember them feeling particularly fantastic in my hand, nor particularly bad either. They felt like they were solid. But, once again, I was young and stupid, I didn't know what I was doing with them.

When I went knife shopping, I originally was sold a couple Messermeister Park Places. While they felt very good in my hand, the stamped metal would not do. I could save myself a lot of grief with a little extra money. And, I paid too much for them. I tried out the 7" Santuku, which felt like exactly the right size for me, and felt pretty good in my hand. It was light, and I grew up with heavy knives, so my instinct told me I would need a bigger, heavier knife in addition to a Santuku if I chose one. I returned them, and the owner assured me the Messermeisters forged 'Meridian Elite' were the ones I really wanted. She said that she was a lifelong Wustof fan as well, and only sold Wustof in her store, until another lifelong Wustof fan turned her onto Messermeister. She swore up and down about them, and said that Wustofs are great knives, and lifelong fans will never know better until they try a Messermeister too. I returned the stamped knives and thanked her, telling her I would think about it.

So, through all my research, here is where I am. I was almost settled on a great deal on a Messermeister Meridian Elite 7" Santuku ($80), a Wustof Classic 9" Bread Knife ($50), and possibly one of the awesome leftover Cyber Monday deals on a Wustof 8" Grand Prix (knife, hand sharpener, and shears for $80) or a Wustof 8" Classic (also with the knife, hand sharpener, and shears, for $100). However, I started to question whether the Santuku from Messermeister was, in fact, the best choice, and if the other less expensive offerings from Wustof, Victorinox, or even a cheap ass Henckels were really that much different. I also questioned the Chef knife choice as well, since Victorinox and Henckles both have some much less expensive forged options.

Of course, then I stumbled onto you lot, and my well-known name brand world of knives was turned upside-down as I began to see some Fujiwara (a little more than 7" that I felt was the perfect length), Kobayashi and Tojiro, as well as Sabatier and Mac. I am not even sure which bread knife to look at any more!

So, plain and simple, I need help deciphering my options into pieces that fit my needs (and am open to suggestions of other knives too). Price range is as close to $200 as possible. Need, at least, a bread knife and a chef's knife (santuku or classic style), and would like to have enough left over to have both a 7" Santuku AND an 8" chef, but I don't need both as much as I need one solid one. If I go with a Santuku, I want to keep it fairly light, but with a bit of weight to it. It needs to have enough heft and weight to be durable and not ding up easily. If I go with a classic chef, I want it to be a heavier knife, but nothing obscene. I obviously still need to be able to work with it all day, but I want some heft to it compared to a lighter Japanese Santuku. All need to be stainless steel, or, if I am missing some other alloy, just something that won't turn into a giant ball of orange warts if water sits on it for an hour or if it doesn't get washed immediately after touching something corrosive. None of these will go in a dishwasher, I will love them kindly and hand wash them as often as I can with mild soap and a cloth. I will steel them daily or as needed, HOWEVER, I won't have the time to steel a soft blade while in the middle of slicing 20 lbs of onions. It needs to be able to hold an edge pretty well through a large task and throughout the day in general. I would prefer NOT to have to steel the bread knife, above all others, obviously. That is just a lot more maintenance. It needs to hold it's edge very well, weight doesn't matter.

Thanks for reading!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Let's start by slaying a preconception and making one recommendation:  Some stamped knives are very near the pinnacle of performance quality.  The Forschner Fibrox/Rosewood series perform as well as just about any German made knife available.  I highly recommend their butcher knives, and just about everything but their chef's knives.

The Forschner 10-1/2" bread knife is exceptionally good and an exceptional value.

For someone with good knife skills, I don't really get the purpose of a santoku for general prep.  That doesn't mean it doesn't have one, or that all sorts of people with great skills don't love theirs... it means I don't get it.  Sell me -- and maybe I'll have a better idea of what you want and can address your desire cogently. 

I strongly recommend a 10" (about chef's) with the proviso that if you're more comfortable with an 8", that 8" is an option (of course) but improving your skills to the point where a 10" knife handles better and more intuitively than your 8" or santoku currently does is a matter of about ten minutes reading and a few hours of practice.  It's 95% grip, the rest is a slight turn of your body.

Compared to quality German knives, quality Japanese knives get sharper, stay sharper, are lighter, and handle better (for most skilled users).   Sabatier carbons are a lot like Japanese knives in those ways, sharpen even more easily,, but in other ways they're not like anything else in the world.  They're not a good generic recommendation because they need someone who's willing to rinse, dry and steel several times during prep; and not everyone's willing to put up with their neediness. 

French stainless knives have the ergonomics but don't have very good edge qualities.  Everything considered, you're probably better off with a German or Lamson.

That said, knives are all about sharpening and I don't want to delve too deeply into which and how much without finding out how you plan to sharpen.  If you're not willing to spend the time and/or money to do a really good job of it, you might as well save a lot of money and get a Forschner Rosewood or Fibrox.   

So tell me about your sharpening.

BDL


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

So far, just picked up a ceramic honing steel I use at the end of the day. I haven't done too much prep yet, so a few minutes at the end of the day has been all I need. It is 1k grit, if you needed to know that. When I order real knives beyond the utility ones I threw in the bag to get started, I am going to pick up a rougher grit steel, http://www.chefcentral.com/product/cutlery/532737-8721/wusthof-trident-3-piece-create-a-set.html . Once again, just chose that one because of the price. I need a new knife block at home too, so two birds with one stone and all that.

In a few months I was planning on looking into some whetstones. I read that Japanese waterstones are the best. Just not enough money right now to invest in an advanced sharpening system and knives, I thought it may be best to get the knives now and order the stone in a few months when I have more money and I have worn out the factory edge and need it.

The alternative was a sharpening service offered down here. Reasonably priced, I need to go see what kind of work they do. I was told they come to the shop twice a month, so I could go down every couple months and get it done on my way home from work. Considering that I have a full time job, part time work that comes and goes, as well as a season volunteer job, this seems like the better option to ensure I make the time to get the knives taken care of.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

There's nothing wrong with getting a Forschner while you develop your knife skills and sharpening skills. Then you'll have more idea what you'd prefer in the future.

The skills will transfer to the new knife and so will the sharpening gear.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Your current ideas about sharpening are more consistent with Forschner than "better." 

Very few sharpening services can or will do an adequate job with Japanese knives.  You can do a decent job with good oil stones on many Japanese knives, including the Fujiwara FKM or a Tojiro DP, but oil stones are slower (need more strokes) than water stones, and slower stones means you need better skills.  

You definitely do NOT want a coarse steel.  In fact, you want to limit your use of a steel to "truing," and avoid sharpening with a rod altogether.  This is because the contact patch is so small and applies so much force that inevitable errors are magnified.  Furthermore, if you're using a knife made from an alloy which will take a fairly fine edge, a coarse, toothy edge is counter-productive.

The logic behind not purchasing a good knife for a coarse edge is intuitively clear, I think; but we can delve more deeply if you're interested. 

In my opinion (and it's only one man's opinion), it's worth going to the expense and trouble to buy, own and maintain a very good chef's knife because it takes so much of the onus out of prep. 

I'm still curious as to why you like a santoku.  Don't worry, there's no implied judgment.  I only want to know more about how you think about knives so as to help find the right fit for you, your skills and your budget. 

Speaking of skills... you can't begin to develop some of the more important knife skills without very sharp knives.  Duller knives require more power, sharper knives reward precision...  In the case of knife work, power and precision are pretty much antithetical.  Sharpness is key.

BDL


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I wish I could say I was diligent enough with my sharpening that I could keep a stamped blade where it needs to be throughout the day, but I am not. Season is about to begin, and we will be SLAMMED. I am sure there will be plenty of days I will have to hone on my lunch break and after work, because I just don't have time to stop and do it. I also am just plain a bit scatter-brained, and honing would be on my list of things to do, constantly getting pushed back as more important things come up. Also, if my blade gets chipped because I accidentally cut something hard or hit a pit or something, I don't have the skills to get the ding out. I would also be pretty pissed  These are the reasons why a soft blade just doesn't seem like it would be a good fit and I feel I need something that will hold an edge better. Besides, I have more time to work on an edge at home than at work, so the less fussing at work the better.

I have talked to multiple female cooks and chefs, and all of them swear by their Santuku. As a female, I was recommended one by all female cooks I talked to, they say it is their go-to knife for most tasks. I also was told that a huge part of finding the right knife is simply what 'feels right'. A santuku 'felt right' in my hand. I use a small one at home, and my biggest gripe about it is that it is too small for most everything I use it on (5"). The weight of the stamped one I tried felt a bit too light for me, but I imagine the forged one will have the extra weight I was looking for. If there is a similar style and weight I should be looking at as an alternative, please let me know! While the santuku felt pretty good, it still wasn't *perfect*. Once I really start working with one for long periods, I can probably narrow down what about it is wrong. I think it may just be a conflict of technique. I began with my dad's classic Wusthofs, he showed me how to use those with a rocking motion, but at some point early when I began to develop knife skills on my own, I began to prefer more of a slicing motion for most tasks. I suspect this is in large part because I have been using utility knives that are too small for quite a while now, so that is just the only way to cut with a small knife! I am more consistent with my slicing motions than rocking, and because I am working at a resort, many of the garnishes NEED to be consistent, so I have been slicing them. When in a hurry or cutting something that doesn't need to be perfect, I prefer the rocking motion (and would be the point I would want a classic french style chef knife). As you can tell, I wasn't 'trained' professionally. I just watched others to learn by example how to cook and prep. Ultimately, that is how school teaches you... I just didn't have someone to slap my hand when I did it wrong


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

Imaya, my suggestion is to use the house knives for a while. After working on the job for a while you will get a much better idea of what tools are best to use for what you need to do.

The other reason is knife maintenance. I do my own (reprofiling, thinning as needed) but if you don't at least the house knives are usually sharpened every so often.

As a relief/temp cook, often times I do more prep work than cooking and there are certainly situations when anything less than 10 inches would not work for me.

For example yesterday I was cubing/dicing chedder cheese for salads in 1/4 inch cubes. The cheese block was maybe 6 inches wide. With a 10 inch Chef's knife, that gave me a couple of inches on each side of the cheese block to put push pressure on the blade with one hand on the pointy end and the other on the handle end like a cheese knife. Also cutting Romaine heads I use just about all of the 10 inch blade.

My main tools in order of use are as follows:

1. 10 inch Chef's-Forcshner (Rosewood handle)-about 90% to 95% useage
2. Kuhn Y peeler
3. Pocket (locking) folding knife (boxes and packages but if sanitized can be used as a Paring)
4. 10 in Serrated bread knife-Update International

I have 6 other knifes in my roll that are rarely used but are as follows:

3.5 inch Paring- Update International
6 inch Petty-Japanese steel but custom made by a friend
8 inch Forcshner Breaking knife
8 inch Victorinox Filet knife
12 inch slicer- Update International
6 inch Chinese Cleaver

As far as Santokus; they don't work for me (although I have one at home) compared to a Chef's knife. It might be a personal choice but I feel I get more functionality out of a Chef's knife. I use the pointy end a fair amount of time, the size (10 inches) is more useful for me and the ability to do "rocking motion" cuts is more suitable to a longer Chef's knife.. At home and I just need to prep a couple of items it doesn't matter what I use and will grap whatever is clean be it a Santoku or anything else.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK. Just for the _"conversational value"_ it may bring, I'll tell you why I like a good _santoku knife_. I have two(2) of them; one(1) cheap, the other inexpensive. With either one, the balance is very nice; it's overall size/shape/weight all go well with the size/shape of the blade. Both of mine have flatter blades with less belly than their corresponding chef's knives _(same brands)_. That, for me, makes working with them very nice. Both are lighter and thinner than the chef's knives too. I also like the fact that they are both hollow edged, I find that very helpful when it comes in play.

I absolutely agree with the idea of _Victorinox Forschner_ being a good brand. Half of my knives are VF. Just recently I saw this clearance page on the site of a very nice retailer, Cutlery and More. It's for the _LamsonSharp Walnut_ line. If it's me, and I needed a new set, I could drop +/- $100 and get everything I needed, outside of a _"steel"_, and in that case I'd get a Idahone Ceramic for < $30, and call it a happy day. I'm not saying that the _Lamson's_ are all that wonderful, but I think they don't suck and the price is nice.

_*"LamsonSharp"*_

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/search



LamsonSharp Walnut 1837 Hollow Edge Santoku


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm glad you like it, IceMan. I like my knives as well.


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## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

My Lamson cleaver is my favorite non-meat cleaver. Great as an Asian style.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I am quite firmly of the belief that my knives at home are 100% unacceptable for professional kitchens. The only thing I dared to take with me was my serrated as a backup, but I know it will rip up sandwiches. I use a steak knife at home for that. As I said earlier, my best knife at home is a 5" santuku, and I already have a plain 5" utility in my work roll. The rest of my knives at home are such trash, they only say 'made in china' on them... I have no idea where they are from. Oh, I also have an 8" chicago cutlery stamped chef's with a broken tip  I hate every single knife we have at home, so I know that all those styles and brand are bad fits  If I got new knives for home, I wouldn't even donate any of them, I would trash every single one except the 5" santuku.

That clearance section has some interesting things... http://www.cutleryandmore.com/miu-france/forged-knife-block-set-p111229# have everything I would need, plus a lot of filler that would collect dust. The manufacturer's website says it is 440 stainless steel, so they seem to be quality made. They also have a small collection of Miyabi 5000s. Google tells me these are Henckels' Japanese line. Both of these companies I am clueless about, so if anyone has any insight, please share!


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

FWIW, by "house" knives, I believe that JohnR meant the knives provided by the restaurant, rather than your own knives from home - unless of course your restaurant does not provide "house" knives.  I believe the Miyabi 5000s is a cheaper line of Henckels Japanese knives (as opposed to the 7000 line, for example) and the steel is not the same (softer) than their more expensive line.  IMHO.while having a knife with a substantial feel is nice when you first pick it up, weight is not an asset if you are doing lots of prep (unless it is cracking lobsters or splitting chickens).  A lighter, sharp knife is much preferable.  That's why just briefly handling knives in a store can be misleading.  They may initially feel good in the hand and have a reassuring weight to them, but it won't be the same after you have actively used them for several hours.

Oh, while a chef's knife is a much more personal choice, don't spend a lot of money on a bread knife.  In my experience, the expensive ones don't cut much better than the inexpensive ones and you can spend the money where it will do more good..  A Forschner should be just fine. - you want at least a 10" knife.  Less than that (lots of 8" knives out there) is really too short for a bread knife.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Ah! No, there are no knives in the kitchen I work in. Everyone brings their own knives... and tongs and whisks too, oddly enough. The only things the scullery has are ladles, scoops, and large spoons. There may be some other odds and ends I have not discovered again, but everyone brings their own... everything in terms of tools with them. People also seem to be pretty lax about others picking up their tools to use at the same station, and people who are friends will share tools. I have an engraver, however, so everything will get marked just to be safe 

I looked up those 'Miyabi' knives and had a lot of trouble finding solid info on them. The manufacturer's site simply said the knives were made out of Henkels proprietary metal, 'friodur', but I could not find ANY info as to what the 'friodur' actually is. I found one single discussion where most people agreed it is likely standard 440 stainless, just with the final ice bath. The debate was whether they used the high carbon 440c, like Henckels used in vintage knives, or the more common and softer 440a or 440b. If this is the case, I am not sure if the final ice bath makes those knives worth quite a bit more than the french MIU I linked, which also are supposedly made of the 440 stainless according to the manufacturer.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Imaya,

I scarcely know where to start.

There's no intrinsic advantage to forged knives over stamped.  There are really bad and really good knives made either way.  We want to set you up with good knives which suit your skills and budget, but considering how little you want to spend, you're probably going to end up with at least a couple of stamped knives. 

Softness/hardness are important up to a point; but they're also terms of art, so I want to be careful how I use them so as not to confuse you.  If it's any comfort, you've got me confused.

I was afraid of just the answer you gave regarding santokus.  It's uncomfortable for me, as a man, to say your women-chef friends are wrong.   Throwing gender into an already complicated stew doesn't make things easier.  However, stature or hand size has very little to do with what size knife will be most comfortable for every day prep.  Grip and sharpness, are the whole story pretty much.  Similarly, a small knife isn't more suitable for a "little bit" of prep than a regular chefs.  There are a few tasks which are done better with something shorter than your "go to gyuto," like peeling, tourne, and boning... but not many. 

MiU knives aren't exactly horrible, but they're not very good either.  The set itself is wholly inappropriate for a working pro.

Your idea of putting sharpening off until your knives dull is self-defeating.  Most good knife skills are based around a soft grip, and you can't develop the grip or the skills without knives which are consistently kept very sharp.  Commitment to sharpness and sharpening is critical.     

I know I'm saying a lot of stuff which you don't want to hear and challenges your preconceptions.  Your ideas, the questions you're starting to ask, and the advice you've already received will probably invite a lot more participation in your thread here at Chef Talk from people with a lot of different ideas and perspectives.  Before going further, it's a good idea to figure out if you want to work with me on this or with someone else.  The last thing I want to do is make you unhappy or unsure.

BDL


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I'd suggest reading Chad Ward's "An Edge in the Kitchen" for more on stamped/machined vs. forged, and for hard vs. soft -- or the *very* basics of that. You can at least read for free, in relevant part, here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/117052-an-edge-in-the-kitchen/


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Well, ok, maybe a good place to start is to know if I am at all on the right track with the knives I was looking at in my original post? Even if a Santuku, for example, isn't the right style, am I still on the right track in terms of models/ series and manufacturers? Should I be looking at Gyuto instead of Santuku, for example? Or should I stick to just a french chef for now? Are any of the manufacturers better for my needs and price range than others, and are there some I should just forget about?

Thanks for that link, Wagstaff. The information was quite enlightening  I am not one to stick to old fuddy-duddy ways 'just because', there has to be a good reason for it! Obviously, there isn't a lot of reason to be a stickler about forged knives and bolsters any more.


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## scubadoo97 (Nov 7, 2011)

boar_d_laze said:


> Your idea of putting sharpening off until your knives dull is self-defeating. Most good knife skills are based around a soft grip, and *you can't develop the grip or the skills without knives which are consistently kept very sharp. Commitment to sharpness and sharpening is critical. *


Amen brother.

Imaya, take this to heart it's important and very true.

A cheap knife that's kept sharp is better performance wise than an expensive high end knife that is dull. Sharpening is one of the basic skills that you should learn if this is to be your craft.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I think you should plan on investing a significant part of your budget on your primary knife; get R. H. Forschner for whichever other knives you absolutely NEED; and plan on replacing one or two of your basics, and adding whatever specialty knives you need as you need and can better afford them; and invest whatever's necessary in some sort of sharpening kit.

My idea of "good enough" for a pro's go-to includes something which will take and hold a sharp enough edge for it to "fall-through" nearly all prep instead of requiring a lot of effort to chop, push, pull, slice or rock through. Until you've used something that sharp, you don't know much of a difference it makes. For most people, "out of the box" sharpness is something of a miracle, but believe me you can do as well with all sorts of easy sharpening kits; and better if you have the desire to build the skills.

My generic recommendations for "bottom of the high end," entry level, good knives are Tojiro DP ($100ish) and Fujiwara FKM ($80ish). That doesn't make them best for you, it just means they're decent entry-level values. I'd like to see you with something a little better, but the next step up is expensive.

I also think a 10" chef's knife is the generic, right choice. Chef's/santoku is a matter of taste, yes. But a chef's tends to be more productive, versatile and stay sharper longer. A 10" chef's is just as agile as a 7" santoku, as long as the knife is light enough and the skills are there. Sadly, they usually aren't.

The skill you build the other skills around is the softness of your grip, that requires sharp edges, and you can see that the whole thing is something of a circle.

As your basic knife kit, I suggest:

10", good quality chef's knife, such as a Tojiro DP (for instance).
10.5" Bread (RH Forschner, Fibrox or Rosewood)
5" or 6" "Petty" (Forschner)
3" Paring (Forschner)
Something large and heavy duty for doing big, rough jobs your chef's shouldn't, like splitting chickens. It could be an old used German chef's, a Forschner Cimeter, a machete, or any one of a number of choices.
Knife roll.
There are two basic directions to take for sharpening. The first is to use some sort of gag which doesn't require a lot of skill to produce a decent edge. You could go with a 15* Chef's Choice Machine or the three stage Mino Sharp for instance. If you did, you'd end up reprofiling your Forschners to 15* -- there are some trade-offs but they can handle it; in my opinion a net benefit; all of my Forschners are sharpened to 15*. Another type of pre-set will create a very coarse edge which is adequately sharp, but (and?) very toothy. The Fiskars "Rollsharp" is the best of that bunch.

The second way is to get a couple of bargain, but good quality water-stones and learn to sharpen. There's a learning curve, it will take you a while and some frustration to get good at it, but it's probably the best choice for a pro who can't afford an Edge Pro ($200ish).

Additionally, you'll need a good "steel." Fortunately they aren't very expensive. I usually recommend the Idahone 12" fine ceramic, but let's see what the rest of your sundae looks like before worrying about the cherry and sprinkles.

BDL


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestions 

Let me also be clear that I already spent about $75 on a chef roll, all my tools, a ceramic steel, a cheap 5" utility/ petty, and a couple quality paring. So the budget I came here with, $150-200, is for a chef knife and a bread knife alone, with the possibility of adding any other type of knife (such as a Santuku or whatever) to compliment this set if I can get the chef and bread at a good price.

I was certainly planning on waiting to get boning knives, etc. since the vast majority of my prep work is related to my station, and none of it requires more than a chef, bread, and paring. Once I am in a place where I need more than that, I will get them. I was told what kind of knives to bring for this position, and the list was Chef, serrated, and paring. I don't expect to need any of the other knives for at least a year. I was brought in this season for a specific station, and I won't be moving until at least next year  Though adding an inexpensive knife for the dirty stuff isn't a bad idea. I might just find something at a really good price to throw in the kit.

I have been practicing my steeling at home on the shitty knives here, and have given all of them quite a lift. I know they are far from perfect, but they also are FAR better than they were.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Now, BDL, for discussion sake, why do you recommend Tojiro DP? I understand price is one reason, but I would also like to compare it's merits and shortcomings with similarly priced knives. I don't doubt your choice at all, I just like to bargain shop. If I can find a similar knife cheaper, or slightly better knife for the same price, I feel all warm and special about about my purchase! 

Poking around, I am wanting to discuss some other very nice sounding Japanese knives I found. I obviously don't have experience with any of these, so if anyone, not just BDL, has experience or knowledge on these, please chime in!

JCK has a bunch of their own lines of knives, are they good? A few in my price range:

The Gekko and Inazuma series (about halfway down the page)

CarboNext (ES)

Kagayaki Original Basic

Kagayaki VG-10

Masamoto

Moly VG Series

Minsono

Moly Series

Hiromoto

Tenmi-Jyuraku (Aogami Super)

Tenmi-Jyuraku (Gingami No. 3)

Kanetsugu

Moly Pro-M

Fujiwara

FKM

Moritaka

Aogami #2

Kikiuichi

Moly Series


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

BDL's list of knives is spot on and pretty much what I use. I add a folding, locking pocket knife to open stuff up when I don't want to contaminate my food knives and a good peeler.

The Molybdenum/Vanadium steel seems to be one consistent characteristic among your links. Another option is as follows:

http://www.chefsresource.com/kai-4000st-chefs-knife-9.html

I have't seen a Kai Seki MagoRoku in person but I am considering ordering one. The price is hard to beat.


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

If you spring for a Forschner bread knife and a Mino Sharp 3 (probably the best of the hand held sharpeners other than an Edge Pro ), that will eat up @ $100 of your budget.  So that leaves you @$100 for a chef's knife.  That in and of itself will limit your choices.  For J knives, I have both the Tojiro and the Mac.  The Mac, while very nice, is over budget.  I think the Tojiro works just fine.  The Tojiro would certainly work for you, as would the Fujiwara FKM.  There may be others at that price point, but I'm not familiar with them.  Hopefully others can chime in.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

JohnR said:


> [snip]
> 
> The Molybdenum/Vanadium steel seems to be one consistent characteristic among your links. [snip] [/snip]


Some things get way out of price point, I think -- but I'll point out that a couple of knives are in those links are Aogami (translation" "blue paper"] -- which is carbon steel. Those are not stainless, and I think, judging from all that has preceded on this thread, you don't want carbon steel. The CarboNext is semi-stainless, and probably close enough to stainless for your purposes. And maybe, if you're open to it, a very good option indeed. BUT (and it's a big BUT).... those will need to be sharpened, and maybe (?) re-profiled, even, immediately. They're not SUPER thin, but they are thin and somewhat whippy (like -- I'm told -- the Masamoto VG is). I don't know if it's enough to be an issue, too. But I do know that the edge won't be very good out of the box, and it will take someone to sharpen for you, at first, if you're not intent on getting your own sharpening skills together nigh-immediately.

That's almost all I can add regarding the list above. Some issues with Kikuichi came up just today on another board -- but that was about the Kikuichi TKC, which has a pinned bolster that gets rust underneath. No idea if that's also true of the "Moly Series" or not.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I think I weeded out all the ones that were pure carbon steel. The ones I went for had the carbon steel core, but stainless outside, so they had rust resistance but carbon edge. I will double check anything before I order it, however.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I just saw "Aogami" -- which is a carbon steel. They may be clad knives -- I'm not familiar with those particular knives; yes, you may want to make sure. I admit I haven't researched them since your post. I know that word does refer to a particular carbon steel, though.

The CarboNext is a "semi-stainless" carbon, as well. Like I said, it's probably close enough to stainless for your purposes; there are other concerns, as mentioned. And I just noticed your "ES" suffix -- that is, I think, the "extra sharp" option? That doesn't really solve the issue, just know. At least all the forum posts, and my own "ES" CN purchase, indicate disappointment with the sharpening job.

It's an easy steel to sharpen, as things go, so there's that advantage. But it won't come with a good edge out of the box, in all likelihood, with or without the ES option.

Some of the others have been discussed (with recommendations or dis-recommendations) on this forum in the past, but I don't want to get too far from what few of them I know something about more directly.

More background: you would do well to read this article from BDL's blog: http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=399

That won't directly point you to a particular knife, maybe. But you'll understand some more of the things that go into recommendations. I'm not sure when you reference a "French knife" if you really mean a French profile or not. The Wusthofs are a German profile knife. Most Japanese gyutos are based on a French profile. Your preference may not match BDL's, or may not be decided upon yet, but it's another piece of info to understand in all of these considerations.

I'm not in the least sure you wouldn't really prefer a Messermeister 9" Meridian Elite. This in spite of it being a) forged, b)with partial bolster, c) German, d) heavier and e) shorter than 10".

Or precisely because of those reasons. We've tried to talk you out of those things as being advantageous. And they're NOT, intrinsically, advantageous. But taste is taste. (I gave one to my dad, who loves it). So *that's* a bit of confusion I'm throwing into the mix, perhaps, because with a clean slate it's not the direction I'd push you. But with your preconceptions and maybe-already-preferences, I'm not sure if it's not what you want. (Btw, they have 10" version that costs about $140, too, as opposed to the 9" version which you can get for $90).

All that said, I think the Fujiwara or the Tojiro are probably better choices. Lighter, sharper, more "French" profile. Lighter will allow more agility and softer pinch grip with a longer knife, too. (Note: the 240mm is shorter than 10", 270mm is a smidge longer. Some of the knives you're looking at might get slightly over your price range in the 270mm size, too, which is otherwise recommended. And is one reason to prefer a lighter knife than the Messermeister I just nonchalantly -- or overly-chalantly -- threw into the mix).


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> Now, BDL, for discussion sake, why do you recommend Tojiro DP? I understand price is one reason, but I would also like to compare it's merits and shortcomings with similarly priced knives. I don't doubt your choice at all, I just like to bargain shop. If I can find a similar knife cheaper, or slightly better knife for the same price, I feel all warm and special about about my purchase!


It's a decent knife for the price. Rugged, easy to sharpen, better F&F than you'd expect, sharp out of the box. It's made with a type of laminated construction where the cutting steel is laminated between thin sheets of softer steel which allows the manufacturer to use fairly expensive cutting steel without worrying too much about failure -- called "san mai." Personally, I don't like san mai knives; they feel damped and dead on the board and in the cut to me; but that's unlikely to be a problem for you. The DP handle is a little boxy, but they're wood and can easily be sanded down. 


> The Gekko and Inazuma series (about halfway down the page)


They're also san-mai. Quite pretty but have the reputation of being fragile in the sense they chip easily. Small handles, which can be a problem if you don't have a good grip. I don't have any experience with them really, but haven't heard anything good about them from people who work with knives for money. 


> CarboNext (ES)


Excellent knife for the price. The handle is a little narrow, otherwise everything but ootb (out of the box) sharpness is very good or better. OOTB sharpness is horrible. As used to be very common with Japanese knives, the knife needs to be profiled and sharpened before using. JCK provides a sharpening service which is HORRIBLE; don't buy it. As already said, don't buy it unless you can find someone competent to sharpen it for you. That almost certainly doesn't include a sharpening service. You could, I suppose, do an adequate job with a lot of time on a MinoSharp or one of the "asian angle" Chef's Choice machines.


> Kagayaki Original Basic


Okay for the price. Indifferent everything, but cheap. The obvious competitor is the Fujiwara FKM


> Kagayaki VG-10


Good deal, if you like VG-10. Like the other Kagayakis, it has a small handle. F&F can be a little variable, but supposedly is usually good. All it all, it depends on how you feel about VG-10. As stainless steels go it gets darn sharp, and doesn't feel too bad on the stones, but tends to be very chippy unless the manufacturer's handled it extremely well, and the Kagayaki people (Kagayaki is actually JCK's house brand, the knives are maded by independent OEM shops) are kind of borderline. The knife will probably chip a lot until it's sharpened a few times, then settle down to "prone to chip if you're not careful." It's a good knife, better still for the price, but I question whether it's rugged enough for you.


> Masamoto Moly VG Series


_Highest recommendation. _

Excellent knife. The "VG" DOES NOT stand for VG-10, but (probably) for VG-1, a much ruggeder steel. Japanese chef's knives are thinner than just about all western made chef's knives and consequently more flexible. The Masamoto is on the flexible side of the Japanese line and some westerners experience it as "whippy." It's not a problem for me, but might be for you unless you can keep the knife straight in the cut and square to the board. There have been some F&F issues in the past, especially around the handle, but if you ask the retailer to pick out a good knife for you he will and... problem solved. The MAC Pro is the Masa's real competition for overall quality, performance and price. I steer most newbies toward the MAC, but if I were buying a knife of the type for myself it would be the Masamoto VG.


> Minsono Moly Series


Excellent knife. It used to be cream of the crop as a student or line cook's knife, but recent price increases have pushed it into competition with the next level up. Better than the bottom of the line Kagayaki Basic and Togahru by far. I like everything about it except the price. For very close to the same money you can get a Masamoto VG or MAC Pro, both of which are better. Otherwise, I have no real criticism and price included, it's a valid choice.


> Hiromoto Tenmi-Jyuraku (Aogami Super) and Tenmi-Jyuraku (Gingami No. 3)


I bought four Hiromoto AS including two gyutos for myself in order to replace some of my old Sabatiers with something more modern and "better." I didn't like the Hiros nearly as much as the Sabs. San-mai, which is one of the things I liked least. Nicely made, very narrow handles. Hiromoto sort of specializes in giving you a lot of blade for the money; and in this case the "lot of" is more the identity of the core steel (Aogami Super is a big deal "exotic), than any actual performance increases. The AS takes a very good edge, and holds it well, but the edge taking properties aren't enough to justify the price or the knife's other issues.

The Hiro G3 is a good knife if you can live with a Hiro handle. Maybe I should have said it earlier, but narrow handles aren't better for small hands. If you use a baseball grip instead of a pinch, or if you have a tendency to hold on tight, narrow handles are particularly bad -- no matter what your hand size. If you have a reasonable grip, it becomes a matter of taste. I have large hands and don't mind fairly narrow handles at all.

Again with the handles: The "best" handles in the sense of being more or less universally handles are MAC, Masamoto and Misono. 


> Kanetsugu Moly Pro-M


Pretty good knife. Decent value. Extremely sharp out of the box, but you'll neve be able to duplicate their beveled factory edge. Fujiwara FKM is their natural competition, and a lot cheaper.


> FujiwaraFKM


Considering how much I've been talking it up, you'd think it was the world's greatest knife. Nope. It's mediocre through and through, with F&F that's very hit or miss (again, ask the retailer to open the boxes and choose the best he has for you), but it's a great value. Excellent for the student or line cook on a budget. Not as stiff or sturdy as the Tojiro DP, no more agile either, but "single steel" and without the damped feeling of san-mai. If you can afford the 2X price jump without feeling it too badly, get a MAC Pro, Masamoto VG or even the Misono Moly.


> Moritaka Aogami #2


Sort of the poor man's Takeda. Too thin. Extremely light. Good knife, better still for the price, but an exotic with a lot of idiosyncracies. It's probably a pretty lousy choice for you.


> Kikiuichi Moly Series


Kikuichi makes a lot of good knives. I've never used one of the Molys, but they're supposedly pretty bad.

*MAC Pro*

_Highest recommendation_.

The only real competiton is the Masamoto VG. I like the VG's profile a great deal because, like all Masamotos, it particularly suits my action. I also like the VG because, like all Masamotos, it's a Masamoto (which means a great deal if you know Japanese knives). For other people, I prefer the MAC. I've bought at least a half-dozen as gifts (including one for my daughter), and my recommendation has meant scores of other purchases. To my mind it's nearly perfect as "the first, good Japanese gyuto," because of its great handle, very good edge properties (same alloy as the Masa VG, probably), very good profile, excellent warranty (unusual in Japanese knives) and excellent US support by the manufacturer (also extremely unusual in Japanese knives).

*Sharpening*

I know knives are much sexier, but this is something you should address before firing up your credit card. Don't buy a MAC, Masa, Misono, or anything else expensive without making a serious commitment to sharpening, or you'll be wasting your money on the knife. All knives get dull, and all pro's knives get dull quickly. It doesn't matter how good, how pretty, how expensive, how ergonomic, how sharp out of the box, how hard, how good the edge holding, any dull knife is a dull knife, and all dull knives are equal.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Do I seriously need to get a sharpening kit now, or will a commitment to honing now and a kit down the line when I have more money keep my knife and I happy for a few months? I guess this is where I am caught up and a bit confused right now. With a quality knife, I can hone knives to where I want them for months before I should need to use stones, right? Or are the factory edges by and large really that unacceptable?

And, while we on are on, what kind of sharpening stones should I be looking at? I looked at Spyderco's little system, and the reviews are mixed bag. Pohaku recommended Minosharp 3, but I am wary of handheld sharpeners. As a newbie to sharpening, would a nice handheld be better for me, and my blade, than just whetstones and a couple of quarters? And what grade of whetstones are really essential to a kit? I imagine that, like sandpaper, it really depends on the material you are working on to know what grit of paper you need.

Thank you everyone for your time and patience  The advice I got from the kitchen today was the same stuff I have already heard; the person who is training me said it doesn't matter what you get as long as you keep it sharp (her knife has a fairly dull edge on it too...), and the kitchen manager told me to get a Wustof, because the German knives can withstand the abuse of professional kitchens far better than a Japanese one. He said he has happily used his for many years, and it holds an edge VERY well, to where he only needs to take it to the stone every 6 months or so. He sounded just like my dad! >.<


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Some knives have more workable factory edges than others. I imagine the Tojiro will come with a workable edge OOTB. (Just from reading, though, so double-check what others have to say).

But I don't know about edge-symmetry. You want something with a 50-50 "v" edge or close to it if you're relying on a rod hone. And you want to use something *not* aggressive, don't treat it as a "sharpener".

BDL terminology -- you've read him about using a honing rod to "true" the edge. If you don't know what that means, in contra-distinction from sharpening, I think this very short video lets you know: 




Caveat -- there's a guy who says "hone your knife, leave the sharpening to professionals". Wrong. And going a year between sharpenings? Wrong (I think). I say this with all kinds of uber-respect for Alton Brown in general, btw. The big foam-knife demo of what an edge out-of-true looks like, and what you're doing with a honing rod, ideally, makes sense. (This video also does not show you how to use a honing rod properly -- there are plenty of others for that).

The point of that is ... you don't really get to think of a rod as a sharpening solution. Or even a sharpening stop-gap. If you use a diamond rod (for example), that's a "sharpener", but it's WAY easier to screw up a knife royally on one of those than it is on bench stones. And you can't get as good an edge in the first place. To be avoided. Any aggressively grooved steel is a bad idea.

The whole thing about getting sharpening together early (if not "now") is just... well, I think it's been said... a very cheap dull knife is as good as a very expensive dull knife.

A Wusthof will withstand lots of abuse, in a cdrtain sense. So the advice you got from the kitchen isn't meaningless. They'll not chip easily, they'll net bend too easily, they won't have tips broken off super easily. (ALL tips are fragile, but relative to other knives, Wusthof/Henckels/Messermeister forged will be a bit more robust). They WON'T keep an edge particularly long, though, so I don't know where the "holds an edge VERY well" comes from. The more obtuse the edge angle, the longer it'll last. Or it will last "forever" if you don't want it sharp!

One of my favorite gems of BDL's writing... which I found on post that pre-dates me posting on this board, so maybe BDL remembers or not: "A knife is just a handle and a sharpening problem".


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

I recommended the Minosharp because I had the impression, perhaps mistaken, that you were not inclined to take the time to sharpen with stones.  Would you get a better edge with water stones IF you spent the time to learn and to use them?  Yup.  That's a big IF however.  If you are not going to commit to sharpening with stones, then you either need to find a good third party sharpener or use a hand held or electronic device.  Based on your budget, the Minosharp 3 seemed appropriate - less $$ than a Chef's Choice and an Edge Pro -- allegedly the best of the handheld sharpeners and no real learning curve (unlike Spyderco).  I use stones myself, so perhaps someone who has used the range of available handhelds can better opine on relative merits.  I was suggesting what I perceive to be the best of the (relatively) "inexpensive" and "simple to use" options.

Based on what you say you do in your job, I don't see a problem with J knives.  You apparently aren't splitting chickens or cracking hard squashes.  I'll let the pros on the board comment, but clearly lots of them use J knives for work.  My daughter uses one for prep work as well.  The house knives where she works are Forschner and the owner does keep them sharp.

If you really want to go with a forged German knife, the Messermeister Meridian would be my choice, if for no other reason than its lack of a finger guard bolster which interferes with sharpening.  I own a large variety of Wusthofs (wedding gifts and long ago purchases) and the full finger guard bolster is a problem for sharpening down the road (although I'll admit to buying a Wusthof chef's knife for my daughter as her bashing around knife because I got it stupid cheap and because she has J knives and won't use it as her main knife).


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Spent the afternoon reading through some more threads on this forum, and found some more helpful info. ( Also, I found a thread a few days ago with advice for cleaning my coat, worked like a charm! Sparkling white! A soak in a bucket of oxyclean for 24 hours, then laundered with the rest of my whites with regular detergent and bleach. Didn't need to spot treat or anything! Though ironing was a bitch, so I may take another piece of advice and send the coats to the dry cleaner from now on )

Anyways, this thread is helping me quite a bit. I will settle on a chef knife today. Well, I kind of have to, I already told the kitchen manager last night that I was having trouble deciding, and he pretty much let me know I need to make up my mind and get a real knife. So, ya, today  I will try to settle on a smaller chopping knife as well if I still have money left. Later, when the knife bug comes back or I finally am ready to throw my utility in the trash (already ready to toss that POS, I regret listening to the salesperson on it. I am reassuring myself by telling myself it will be my practice knife for sharpening, so I don't fuck up my nice ones ) I will try a different brand, and use my experiences with smaller knives to decide on a knife upgrade much further down the road. I have been worried that I would be buying new chef knives every couple of years because I can't find one I like. Or, even worse, my first choice would be one that I regret and would be stuck with for years! But I feel reassured that I can find something I like with a smaller investment in a small knife. If I don't like a small knife, I can find someone to regift it to or something  What I really got out of it was the knowledge and experience with the knife brand, which I am ok with if I didn't spend over 100 dollars on it! Might as well take a class at that point 

One quick question, however. MAC professional are much more expensive than their 'Chef' line. What are the differences, and are the Chef line knives acceptable in light of their price and what they COULD be at twice the price for the professional line?


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that doesn't like knives with a thick bolster extending to the blade-it interferes with sharpening near the heel end and makes it difficult if not impossible to thin the blade near the heel.


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

BDL has written about this previously:

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/60100/mac-pro-vs-mac-chef-series

I have both a Mac Pro 240mm and a Mac Chef series 8" Chef's knife (as opposed to their 8.5" gyotu). Maybe the gyotu is different, but I don't find the 8" Chef that I have to be particularly whippy. It feels just as stiff as the Pro. I use the Chef model as part of my traveling, camping knife set (time share units and rentals invariably have terrible knives) and it has performed admirably in the 8 years or so that I've had it. The Pro is still a better knife. Better F&F, handle and has a bolster. Seems to sharpen a bit better than the Chef (as BDL has indicated) although sharpening the Chef hasn't been a problem. I haven't had the Pro long enough to reasonably opine on how well it holds an edge compared to the Chef series knife - I sharpened the Pro when I got it 3 or so months ago and once since then. I have a fair number of knives and it is in rotation with others - so none get heavy use, and sharpening for each knife is therefore infrequent. I understand that the Pro steel is different and better than that used in the Chef series. I also have a Tojiro DP (240mm would be same price as a Mac Chef 10"), and I think it is a better knife than the Mac Chef series knife. Has bolster and the F&F on the one I have is quite decent. The handle, although a bit blocky, works just fine for me (pinch grip). Spine could be rounded a bit, but that's an easy fix. San Mai construction doesn't bother me. I think if I were to choose between a Mac Chef Series and the Tojiro DP, I'd take the Tojiro. I'd also get the 240 mm rather than anything smaller.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Pohaku, you read my mind  Those were the two I was choosing between in the final steps, now I have chosen, ty!

Ok, so for the serrated, I am getting

http://www.bestkitchenknives.com/bakers-bread-cake-knife-forschner-victorinox.html?source=googprod If this isn't the one you recommended BDL, let me know. Also, if anyone knows a better price (including shipping cost!) let me know 

I am going for the Tojiro DP, 240 mm. Best price I found was http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpchkn24.html Once again, if anyone knows of a better price, please let me know!

I am also thinking of getting something like a cleaver or a cheap chef for all those dirty jobs I don't want to risk screwing up my nice new knife doing. Suggestions? Something cheap, but reliable and usable.

Finally, I need waterstones or a sharpening system. Suggestions for good value whet stones or kits?


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## carpenter (Aug 19, 2011)

So today is the day.  Did you pull the trigger--yet?


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

As soon as I figure out the last two things, the whetstone and some sort of cleaver or cheap 'dirty job' knife, I will order it all. Everything is sitting in a shopping cart waiting


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

That Forschner actually is the bread knife I recommend, in fact I bought the Rosewood version (same blade, wood handle) for my daughter's birthday. I said 10-1/2" instead of 10.25". So sue me. What's a quarter inch between friends?

Since you've decided to go with water stones, I think your budget would prefer starting with a fairly inexpensive combi stone like the Norton 1K/4K (under $60), and a pack of 3M drywall screen for flattening ($11 at Home Depot for a many-year supply). After a year or so when you've learned to sharpen and the combi is starting to wear, you can step up to more and better if you like.

Speaking of which, at some point you're going to need a coarse stone for profile and repair... but not until you can make the 1K and 4K surfaces sing. Coarse stones can do a lot of damage quickly if you can't hold a stable, consistent angle.

Tips: 

You have to flatten new stones and chamfer their edges before using them.
Start with drywall screen instead of a "flattening stone."
If your stones don't come mounted or in a case which may be used as a stand (like the Norton), you don't need a stone holder, you can put your water stone(s) on non-slip drawer liner or a towel.
Learn the "burr method" of sharpening; i.e., raise a burr, chase the burr, deburr.
Start with the Magic Marker Trick and the idea that you're going to have to learn to feel the burr.
It takes a while to learn how to hold an angle. Be patient with yourself. Nome wasn't built on a bay. Or whatever.
Learn confidence and competence with the 1K before trying the 4K. Learn competence and confidence with the 4K before ordering a coarse stone.
BDL


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

When it comes to water stones, are there inherently 'bad' brands I should look out for? Or does it really not matter as long as it is a 1k/4k combo?


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Found a 1k/6k for a really good price: 
Is 6k too fine?

ETA: I also realized the honing rod I have to too short for the new knife. I am wary of taking a ceramic rod to work, as it is likely to break. I am not sure what I should be looking for in a honing rod... diamond is too rough, right? I mean, is there that much difference between a $10 steel and a $30 steel when it comes to non-ceramic?

I will poke around the forums a bit and see if I can find some more info myself, but if anyone has some info to share here, please do!


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok, ordered the Tojiro and the bread knife! Also picked up a couple of tools I needed and some edge guards for the new knives. Also... I am sure my hand is going to get slapped for this... but I ordered an edge guide too >.< It is by Tojiro, so it should guide me to the angle my knife was meant to have. I don't want it to be a crutch, but I really am worried about messing up my knife. If anyone has strong opinions against using a guide, I have until tomorrow morning to remove it from my order!

I still am not sure what kind of 'dirty jobs' knife I should get. I am debating between a Victorinox Fibrox 8" or some sort of cleaver. I am afraid the cleaver may be overkill, and the Victorinox is not versatile enough to ever see much use, since I already have a chef knife. I am wondering if maybe I should grab a shitty knife from home as a backup...? Anyways, I found the Norton stone on Amazon for 50 bucks, best price. So whatever cheap knife I get, I will get from there.

The one last silly thing is a way to mark my knives. I don't want to damage them, so I think I will go with stickers on the handle with a bit of clear packing tape over them to protect them. Any better ideas? I tried to find magnets, but didn't really see anything I liked, though I imagine the flat ones will stick on a knife blade pretty darn well. I also debated some sort of small charm on the end of the handle, but unsure how to attach it. A small hole drilled in the handle would work if the knife is a rat tail tang, but I hesitate to modify a new expensive knife like that! I don't really _want_ to use stickers, because the water will mess them up quickly, and the sticker glue will just end up all over my hands and on the knife, making a huge mess. But, if someone knows how to make this work, or maybe some sort of better laminate to put over the sticker, I am all ears! I ordered some high quality small vinyl decals, so I will see how those survive


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## scotts (Mar 1, 2010)

A knife I really like is the F.Dick 1905 series. Check it! It's quite light, very strong, retains a nice edge, and isn't outrageously expensive. It's also quite nice to look at.


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

While I got my daughter Wusthof Classic as a bash around knife, it was only because I got it cheap and I sharpen.  A Forschner is cheap and would do just fine in that role.  Pretty hard to beat for the price.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Every day this week I rip apart sandwiches and saw through lettuce with my faberware serrated knife from home, I count down the days until my real knives get here XD Very excited, will post pics and a review after I have some time with them!

Anyways, I guess I should post actual links and such to what I got 

Tojiro DP, 240mm

Victorinox Fibrox 10.25" bread knife

Blade guards

Pie server and Tongs (GREAT prices! I have a better sense of what is needed on the job now, and a pie server I KNOW is there, as well as an extra pair of tongs, are vital)

Tojiro sharpening guide

CIA masters 7" Fillet knife (I actually got it for $20, but I think it was the last one left, as the link to the page where I got it no longer works  It is my toss around and dirty jobs knife! I wanted something with more flexibility than just another chef knife, so I think this fits well!)

Pocket Thermometer

Shears for work, steel and knife block for home (it was too good of a price to pass up )

Norton 1k/4k combo water stone (which my aunt is giving me SHIT about, saying I paid too much and she has a whetstone that is just as good from years ago that only cost 3 dollars at the mom and pop hardware store. >.<)

Also found good prices on miscellaneous personal kitchen stuff, like harder to find spices and some nice, large, glass vacuum jars.

Now, for marking my tools, I have a few ideas. My first ones were to go with what the girl who is training me is doing. She just put some flashy zebra striped tape on all her stuff. Easy. So I grabbed some stickers from amazon, thinking I could seal them on with some clear packing tape or something? In case that didn't work, I got a pack of stupid little rubber charms I could tie on the end of the handle with fishing line or something. Wasn't crazy about either of those ideas, but they will work for now. Thought briefly of engraving the handle, but I dont want to create a rough spot that will rough up my hand from repeated use. Then... I had the BEST idea!

This is where I need help  I was recently given a good sized supply of enamel paints. I am a painter and artist, it is what I have my bachelor's degree in (fine art). So! I want to custom paint my handles with enamels! I haven't worked with enamels much beyond a few models as a kid, so I need some help making this work on knives! Will I need to prep these handles with anything special? Sand them or anything a bit? And, most importantly, how do I seal the handles when I am done? I have no clue what to use! Obviously, it needs to be clear, and it needs to be very durable, able to withstand being constantly handled, and stand up well to constant cleaning with mild detergent (soap and water). Also, it can't be overly thick. I don't want to screw up my handle by adding too much width to it! I linked the exact knives I ordered, so that is what I will be working with!

I expect half of the stuff on friday, the rest by tuesday (and HOPING amazon didnt pack poorly and send me a BROKEN water stone... I read a few reviews where this was a problem...)


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Painted handles don't sound very hygenic to me.  I sure don't want the stuff flaking off into my food.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

That is why I need to seal the handles when I am done  I just don't know what I need to use!


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

O.M.F.G.

Never in my life have I felt ANYTHING so freakin SHARP. I am kinda afraid of it >.< More than anything, I have watched all the sharpening videos, practiced with a crappy whetstone on a crappy knife, and REALLY don't want to sharpen it now! I am very intimidated and afraid of ruining this GORGEOUS edge!

Obviously, I will practice on my shitty knives first. But, I still dont really have the confidence to work with my new knife yet!

Anywho, I promised pics 



The rest of the stuff (water stone, throw around knife, etc.) have not arrived yet. Next week for the knife, the stone should be in tomorrow


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Nice!  Nowadays Tojiros are reliably very sharp OOtB.  They're great knives for the money.


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

All you will need to do for a while is hone it.  You will have time to practice sharpening on your "crappy knife" before you need to take your Tojiro to the stones.  They are decently sharp OOtB.

Have fun!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya said:


> Spent the afternoon reading through some more threads on this forum, and found some more helpful info. ( Also, I found a thread a few days ago with advice for cleaning my coat, worked like a charm! Sparkling white! A soak in a bucket of oxyclean for 24 hours, then laundered with the rest of my whites with regular detergent and bleach. Didn't need to spot treat or anything! Though ironing was a bitch, so I may take another piece of advice and send the coats to the dry cleaner from now on )
> 
> Anyways, this thread is helping me quite a bit. I will settle on a chef knife today. Well, I kind of have to, I already told the kitchen manager last night that I was having trouble deciding, and he pretty much let me know I need to make up my mind and get a real knife. So, ya, today  I will try to settle on a smaller chopping knife as well if I still have money left. Later, when the knife bug comes back or I finally am ready to throw my utility in the trash (already ready to toss that POS, I regret listening to the salesperson on it. I am reassuring myself by telling myself it will be my practice knife for sharpening, so I don't fuck up my nice ones ) I will try a different brand, and use my experiences with smaller knives to decide on a knife upgrade much further down the road. I have been worried that I would be buying new chef knives every couple of years because I can't find one I like. Or, even worse, my first choice would be one that I regret and would be stuck with for years! But I feel reassured that I can find something I like with a smaller investment in a small knife. If I don't like a small knife, I can find someone to regift it to or something  What I really got out of it was the knowledge and experience with the knife brand, which I am ok with if I didn't spend over 100 dollars on it! Might as well take a class at that point
> 
> One quick question, however. MAC professional are much more expensive than their 'Chef' line. What are the differences, and are the Chef line knives acceptable in light of their price and what they COULD be at twice the price for the professional line?


So you dug deep enough into the threads to find my old Tojiro DP thread 

Hope you found comfort in the fact that your not the only one who was completely perplexed by all the information and learning involved with making your way into J knives.

I have wondered more than once why the webmaster here has not created a FAQ or wiki etc as a sticky since so many of us noobs seem to have the same questions and issues, but then again it is fun watching how the repetitive answers change as the months pass etc.

I do agree with the previous suggestion to spend most of your budget on your main knife, and to consider that knife be 240mm and a gyuto as it makes sense to spend more on what you will use most, and also the size is a good compromise between what your comfortable with now, and what you may find you would like in the future when your skills improve.

That all said I see you did pull the trigger on your new purchase (and I think you did well) so be sure to update on your thoughts once you get to use it all etc. I think performance wise you will be very pleased with the Tojiro, and that you will learn to really like the length as well.

Good luck with your new tools


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya said:


> O.M.F.G.
> 
> Never in my life have I felt ANYTHING so freakin SHARP. I am kinda afraid of it >.< More than anything, I have watched all the sharpening videos, practiced with a crappy whetstone on a crappy knife, and REALLY don't want to sharpen it now! I am very intimidated and afraid of ruining this GORGEOUS edge!
> 
> ...


Just wait till you learn to sharpen well and look back and think how much sharper your Tojiro is now compared to when you first got it! Yes it can get that much better!

The factory edge should hold up a good while if you are careful with hitting bones and such and use the ceramic rod properly. I had gifted a smaller gyuto to someone last year for Christmas who uses it daily (at home) and just sharpened it for her recently and it was actually still pretty sharp!


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## scubadoo97 (Nov 7, 2011)

Oh yes it can be that much better.  These knives are sharp but no where near what their potential is.


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## marosi (May 26, 2012)

Imaya, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in on the water stones.  I am not sure if you purchased your set yet or not, but I really like the Norton waterstones for getting a good range of stones on a budget.  I have the 2 combo stones, 125 (I think, might be 150, I did not take the time to look) and 1000 grit, and the 4 and 8 k grit.  This setup is less than 130 dollars for the two stones!  Do not use the low grit stone for anything but repair work or reshaping an edge.  I have the Chef Pro for asian knives, but was never able to get a truly sharp edge with that machine.  With the waterstones, I can put a razor sharp edge on my japanese knives, and a sharp edge on even cheapo stamped blades.  When I say razor sharp, I am talking about cutting through a watermelon with almost no pressure, and being able split not only a tomato, but a half of a lime, when dropped on the edge from a foot or so above the knife.  I was also able to take significant nicks out of the blades, which the Chef Pro could not even touch.  the 8k stone will put a mirror finish on the edge, and my experience is that even at 12 to 15 degrees the edges are holding up to regular use.

It is not that hard, you should be able to get the feel of it in an evening of practice, and your knives will be so much more enjoyable to use.  Good luck.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Hey! Sorry about the delay in response, Marosi. I have been waiting for a day off that won't be coming until... I don't know when. So I figured I would update everyone on a half day instead!

So, yes, I did get the Norton waterstone. It is a combo 1k/4k, and it is FABULOUS. I have gotten my knife SO sharp, in fact, people at work are asking me to sharpen theirs, including a cook who has been at the resort longer than I have been alive! Impressing the shit out of people who even know how to sharpen, because they can't get theirs *this* sharp.  I know I can get it sharper though! I will look into an 8k stone over the holidays, as well as some lower grit ones so I can repair some knives for people who haven't been keeping their edge up, and maybe start a little side business with it 

So, on to the knives! I have had some good time with them now where I feel comfortable evaluating their performance. First off, the best purchase was the simple bread knife. It is a Victorinox Fibrox. For what I paid, this is the perfect knife! It gets thrown around a ton, because anyone passing through my station always picks it up and uses it, then leaves it dirty or throws it in the sink. It is getting constantly used and abused, but still cuts like a champ. It is starting to show it's 'value' pricing in how a few teeth are rolling over from the abuse. I think I have a handheld sharpener somewhere, and I will use it over summer to fix some of the badly damaged teeth. The handle is EXACTLY what I needed. The knife never slips, no matter what kind of grease, juice, etc etc I have all over my gloves. And I always have gloves on since I am rarely in the kitchen.

So, now that I am on handles, I will jump right into the Tojiro. I hate the handle. HATE the handle. It is super smooth and slippery, I have to keep a clean towel nearby to keep it and my gloved hand clean. My five dollar knife even has it beaten in this area. Also, the handle is uncomfortable. I have tried to nail down *exactly* what it is about the handle that makes it so, whether it is too big, too small, shaped funny, or if I am overcompensating the grip because it slips so easily. I am using a pinch grip, but my thumb gets cramped and sore and my wrist kills me after about 30 minutes. I can use my little 6" $5 knife longer than that with no issue, and my bread knife all day with zero issue. I think it is too big, as my hands are smaller than most (I wear a size medium glove, if that is any help. No men in the kitchen or on the floor can use size medium. Only some of the women can) It does have a pretty boxy/ bulky shape too, which may be why it feels too big even though it may not be all that big comparatively. I have a 5" santuku at home that has a super tiny handle, and that one is even more impossible to use because I can't get a proper grip on it. Other than the handle, which I have a huge beef with, the knife is really, really great! Smooth cuts through everything, the ceramic honing rod easily puts the edge back as soon as it starts to soften up, and it sharpens really nicely, really sharp. I successfully sharpened it SHARPER than factory, just like I was told I could! It does need the honing rod pretty religiously to keep it's edge I gave it, but I only need to take it to the stone every few months. It took me months, but the length is much more comfortable than it was at first. There are still plenty of jobs that are much more suited for my short knife, especially ones I consider needing more agility (I actually like to use my bread knife to peel and dice melons, it just seems to give me more control and it is a lot faster because of it) or are just small jobs. Also, I am really afraid of it walking away in the huge kitchen I work in. I would be devastated if it did. So it stays tucked away when not in use, I leave it out as scarcely as I can, which many times means just plain not using that knife when I know I am doing something where I can't leave it in my sight. One of the chefs had his lesser knifes swiped, and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it. Anyone who wants to can, and does, just wander through our kitchen because of the open design and sheer size. I was told I most likely will never work in or even see a kitchen bigger or busier, or even equal to this one, again!

A few quick comments about the miscellaneous crap I got too. The blade guards are NOT meant for everyday workhorse use. If there is the smallest bit of moisture or an unlcean spot on the blade, the guard sticks to it. It constantly leaves black magnetic crap on my knives where I had to peel it off, and I have to scrub the crud off. They also are beginning to rust and leave rust rings on the knives (which I can wipe off since the rust isn't from the blade). My little cheapo $5 utility knife came with its own custom plastic guard, which is what I am realizing is the ideal material for this. No problems at all with that one, and that knife is thrown around as badly as the bread knife! I baby my Tojiro, and the guard I use with it, cleaning both thoroughly, but there is still ALWAYS spots that stick or have little rust rings. Stupid. Don't get magnetic guards, stick with plastic.

My pie server and tongs are both long gone. They were swiped months ago. This is very, very common in our kitchen. Need new tongs, since I am down to one pair now. The sharpening guide was helpful in getting me started in sharpening, mainly in my confidence. I was so, so worried about messing up the edge and profile. Now, my knives have gorgeous edges but the rest of the blade is scratched up from the sharpening guide  it scratched my Tojiro the worst, of course, since that was the shiniest. I am reminded of it daily when I use the knife and look at the unsightly marks all over it!

So, I will be looking to sell/ trade my Tojiro. The handle will really start to get to me more and more as I use it more and my skills develop. I guess I am kind of back at square one now, wondering which knife will have a handle that is right for my hand! Over the holidays, I will also add a decent Santuku to my bag to replace the $5 knife. I think I will use my experiences with that one to make a more informed analysis as to what I need in a handle, because it still seems pretty vague as to what kind of handle is right for me. Something with a bit of tooth, so it doesn't slip, and nothing too boxy or big, but also no super tiny handles. That is about all I have right now! Every other knife I have picked up I don't think I held or used long enough to know if the handle is right, as the Tojiro feels fine at first as well... until I use it for a bit.

Thanks everyone for all your help getting my knives together! The resources, such as the sharpening videos, have been invaluable, and the knowledge about knives has helped me so much in making decisions about knives and finding the right tools! Great forum and community, I will keep you guys on lurking status and keep hanging around in the background


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I have had these knives for a year now, lots of time with them! I have also been moved to banquets, so I am giving everything a much more vigorous workout. Here is where I am.

First off, the Victorinox Fibrox bread knife. There is no reason 90% of people need any other bread knife. Unless you expect a bunch of monkeys to be chucking this thing in metal sinks and dishwashers all day, it is PERFECT. The price is phenomenal. I use it daily, heavy use. Teeth have rolled, but performance has not suffered. It is my workhorse. The Fibrox handle is fantastic. No slip whatsoever, and I wear gloves all day. Cleans up beautifully, still shines at the end of the day! Still as razor sharp with as perfect cuts as the day I got it. Everyone wants to use the knife when they see it not being used. Every single person who uses it for the first time, I kid you not, stops after the first cut to look at it and read the label. They assume I just never use it. In fact, I use it all day, every day. If anything happens to it, I will spend the $25 for a new one. Best buy by far, cannot say enough good things about it.

The Tojiro DP. I am going back and forth about it. More than anything, I find myself leaving it in my bag unless there is a super heavy project. I don't know if it is the cutting boards, or if I only just started sharpening it properly, but it doesn't hold an edge for long enough. If I use it heavily all day, it will lose significant edge by the end. I can hone it back decently, but it is ready for the stone after a second day of heavy use. There have been times I have pulled it out, and needed a sharp blade, and didn't have one. Highly disappointing. I have been using it far less the last couple months after the last meltdown and subsequent sharpening (I think I have taken it to the stone 4 or 5 times now, and it gets very light use) and it has been much more reliably sharp. Maybe I had the angle wrong until the most recent sharpening? Also, I HATE the handle. Hate, hate, hate it. It hurts my hand, and is super slick with gloves and whatever grease is on them. The pinch grip produces a very painful blister where my finger goes over the spine. I could round it, but I want to trade/ sell the blade and don't want to reduce the value further. It sharpens easily, like butter. And it gets razor sharp. But it doesn't hold that edge with as heavy of prep as I am doing. By the end of the case of tomatoes, it is no better for the job than the bread knife... and I still have another case to go! No bueno. :/

No need for the fillet knife yet. Chef got too lazy to get his out one day and asked if I had one. He reported back "MMMM gotta love that factory edge!"  He said it is a great knife, it did an excellent job. It just sits in my kit until they have enough faith in me to allow me to mess with stuff that needs filleting.

Shears are shears. Sharp, they work. Come apart for easy cleaning. No flex of bowing in the handle. Solid. Rust spots if I dont dry them out completely.

Picked up a Messermeister serrated peeler at the recommendation of the lady at the kitchen store. BEST. PEELER. EVER. The chefs hate if cause it is serrated. They turn their nose up at it, and I got yelled at for showing it to a new guy and telling him to replace his with one too  Everyone swipes this peeler like my bread knife. Everyone stops to look at it after one peel. Less than 10 bucks. No need for any other peeler, it eats through everything. The indentations it leaves are small, because you need such light pressure to peel. No more gouging, ever. I mean, really, is someone going to complain that their carrots have micro serrations on it? The indentations disappear once something is cooked too. The last peeler you will ever need, I would gladly spend another 8 or 9 bucks to replace it if something ever happened to it.

My purple Zyliss. It came with a cheapo kit the kitchen store sold me. It had a small serrated knife, a paring knife, and this little 5.5" guy for like 10 or 15 bucks. All had their own custom fit sayas. The serrated knife has been awesome for slicing cherry tomatoes and grapes, I have another paring knife I prefer, and the little purple utility knife if my workhorse fruit knife. It is too small for most things, but just right for a few. It definitely fills the gap between the chef knife and a paring knife, and has become my absolute favorite tool for most prep. Small, agile, I am not worried about someone running off with it, good to keep lying around for all the small shit. Cleans up fruit nicely, allows enough agility for accurate, fast, detailed cuts. Holds a decent edge for a long time, sharpens up well. (nothing close to the Tojiro, of course, but it is still eons better than the junk knives at home!) Can keep it going for a month with heavy use and honing, doesn't chip easily. Love this little knife. But, like I said, it is a bit on the small side. Which brings me to...

I would like to retire my purple fruit knife. Need something a bit bigger, like a 7". Granton edge for sure, that is something I sorely miss on the Zyliss knife. It has a slightly rounded tip, but I am thinking I want it fully rounded. So maybe a Santoku. I need a knife that isn't necessarily the sharpest I will ever use, but it will hold a nice sharp edge under heavy use for a long time. I don't mind working it over the stone longer, just as long as I don't have to be babying it like the Tojiro! Price range is around $75, less than $100.


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## seth chick (Jul 30, 2012)

If your on an extremely tight budget I'd say check out Mercer knives. I have a few and they perform very well. In fact my Mercer bread knife out performs my Wusthof bread knife. They won't break the bank and they are very good quality. Of course I'd still splurge on a Wusthof chef knife.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I read the last few posts a couple times and I am thinking there is something possibly causing problems with your edges.

Have not fully nailed it down yet but something is wrong if your Tojiro DP is needing sharpening daily.

The fact that knives with serrated edges end up being preferred leads to thoughts of misuse, problems from the cutting board, some sort of technique problem, or something with the sharpening or edge etc.

I really wish I could figure it out for you as the blade can be a very accomplished cutter, and I am sure you would prefer to like and enjoy your investment.

I am leaning towards possible issues from a combination of grip (hate the handle etc) technique and edge but thats preliminary etc.

Do you find that the handle may cause you to use it different or do things that could cause twisting or torque during the cut?

Anything else?

One thing to keep in mind is that the typical J knife has a much thinner blade and even thinner more acute edge that doesn't like things or styles that a softer thicker and yes not as sharp knife will accept without complaint.

Hmmmmm


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I know the plastic cutting boards are tough on knives, and I don't slam my knives in them like others. I keep mine sharp, so they only need a light touch. I don't crack my board with my knife as I work, I tap on it, if that makes any sense 

The way I grip my knife when it gets slippery seems to cause more pain than anything, as I give it a death-grip so it doesn't slip. When it does slip, it toques, and I wince when I hear that crack on the board. It happens without fail as I get deep into anything greasy or wet. I don't have this problem with any other knife, including me cheapo one. I sharpen them both the same way, with the same stones. After my post, I read another thread about factory edges being weak on J-knives, and you have to get rid of it and find 'new metal' to get a good sharpening. I may have been too light with the sharpening before the most recent one, though it always seemed like I was getting a good amount of metal off (I use a Norton 1k/4k combo waterstone). The edge has been much more reliable the last few times I have pulled it out, and handled some larger jobs nicely. I am still a bit wary of it, and it hurts my hand anyways, so I keep it in my bag most days.

What would be a comparable replacement to try? Something at least with a better handle, even if the blade is the same. It might all be problems with my handle and slipping. At the very least, I need to eliminate the obvious problem to determine if there is another one.


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

here you go:

https://www.stellaculinary.com/podcasts/video/how-hold-chefs-knife

=D

how to hold a kitchen knife

a good knife will only need a very light grip. a good knife is always a sharp knife. dull knives are more dangerous.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Like I said, I use the pinch grip. I taught myself how to hold a knife before I even began work 

The OTHER people in my department, however... *sighs*. They hold it like a hammer, they wield it like a hammer, and their knives are only sharp on days they scrape them through hand sharpeners. I learned early to not let anyone borrow my chef knife, because most cooks POUND knives! >.<


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya I think your finding your way to the answers etc

Plastic boards are something you can't really avoid, but the death grip and other issues you face that are a result of the pressure put on you in the environment you describe working in are things you can adjust.

Just what you can change needs to be determined (by you etc) and what friction you may find from what sounds like an environment filled with coworkers who have no issue with sawing away with a dull chubby western knife.

Obviously the conditions and resulting changes in your technique when under pressure combined with the boards and other conditions would be an issue with most any thin, acutely sharpened, hard steel blade.

I am not sure upgrading to a higher cost knife will eliminate your problems, but have a hunch that addressing the things that are causing the actions that are wreaking havoc on your edges would be beneficial to the DP or any other J knife for that matter.

What do you think you can do differently that would help?

I think the first things to conquer are that death grip, and the hurried part which lead to the twisting and torque etc.

I know in the conditions you describe thats not going to be an easy adjustment, but I think in the long run it would be better than moving to all lesser softer steel knives that would take the kind of abuse and misuse etc.

I often think back to when I was first learning at a local place years back where the "pros" who were my mentors had very different techniques. The older was trained in Europe and used more of a slicing technique while the younger one who I spent most of my time with was an accomplished hack lol. Yes just like you describe your coworkers.

The steels and knives were discussing were not around then so it wasn't an issue, but more than once while using the superior tools i have now I have thought how the style of my younger trainer would destroy them and ruin the improvement they truly represent.

Hope that makes as much sense in reading as it does in my mind lmao


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You're not the first person to find the Tojiro DP's handle insecure. The usual problem seems to be with it's greater than usual girth, and all around boxiness. If it's any comfort -- and it probably shouldn't be -- older DP handles were even boxier and less well finished.

The thing about handles is that there are few which are generally acknowledged as "great." A big part of handle comfort just depends on how the handle hits your hand. There's a large amount of variation and it's not all grip either.

The chef's knife grip which seems to be most adaptable for the broadest range of handles and users is something I call a "soft pinch," and I suggest you read my post, Getting a Grip on a Soft Pinch for a description. There's a recent thread in CT about using a suji as a chef's knife and I discuss a minor variation there -- the takeaway for you should not be about using a suji, but about the adaptability of a soft grip. And, as everyone else has told you, a soft grip is actually (and ironically) usually more secure than a strong grip.

One thing a soft grip demands is a very sharp knife.

As it happens, Tojiro DPs usually come with a very good OOTB edge, and are also very easy to sharpen. On the other hand, I trust your description. Without actually looking at the knife it's hard to know what precisely is the problem, but I suspect your edge needs thinning. Thinning requires removing a fair amount of metal, and is generally best done with something coarser than a 1K Norton.

But before thinning, I'm going to ask that you try the "Magic Marker Trick" and see if you're getting all the way down to the edge on your Tojiro. It should have come from the factory with a more acute edge bevel than your other knives, and you may not be sharpening all the way down to the edge -- but still getting close enough to true -- and that may enough for your knives to seem sharper for a little while.

Another problem might be your general approach. If you don't use the "burr method" to sharpen (i.e., raise the burr, chase the burr and deburr), how do you sharpen? For instance, are you a "stroke counter" instead?

The DP is not what I'd call a great knife, but it's pretty good. It's possible that for whatever reason it's not the right knife for you; but let's do a little work on your grip and a little work on your sharpening before you start buying stuff.

Trust me. I'm a lawyer.

BDL


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

That 1/6K you linked to looks absolutely identical to the one came with my Shun honing steel set, very sorry I spent $99 on that.  The steel is ok even though you can do as well or better maybe for less.  The Stone though is very soft and I wore a .02 trench in it in no time.  Also the softness makes it more difficult for a beginner.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

BDL,

Based on the fact I get really painful blisters on my finger when I use my Tojiro for any length of time, I am pretty sure I am gripping it too tight. My knives are in my locker, so I won't be playing with them for a couple more days, but I will report back regarding this. I am not sure if it is bad form and something I can fix with practice, or if it is bad form that came out of necessity due to an ill-fitting, slippery handle.

In terms of how I sharpen, I tried to find the video series I watched to learn, but I can't for the life of me remember who they were by. It was from a knife geek or merchant's site, and he did a 'counting' method. I remember he specifically said 15 laps, but I use that as a loose number. I kind of 'feel' it out, and keep running each section until it feels smooth, no resistance on the stone. I will do one side on the 1k, then look and feel it over to see if I didn't hit any sections well enough, go over those sections that need more work, then repeat on the other side. I strop it lightly, then repeat the process on the 4k side. I run my finger down, feeling for a consistent edge, and work any segments that need some more love. Takes me about 15-30 minutes, depending on which knife I do. I honestly have horrible eyes, and never am able to find much of a burr, in all the different knives I have done. I can find one on the tip, but never on the sides. Maybe I am not being aggressive enough? If anything, I have been afraid on the last 3 or 4 sharpenings I am being TOO aggressive and taking away too much metal. I know the metal in the Tojiro is fairly soft compared the the German knives I had to muscle across the stone, and I seem to get more metal off more quickly on the Tojiro, and even more so with my cheap utility that melts the moment it even LOOKS at the stone. Maybe I am using too steep of an angle? How wide of a face on the edge should I have? Maybe I can measure it to check.

I used the magic marker the first few times I sharpened, but once I got a feel for it I stopped doing that. I also used a guide the first few times, and it scratched the shit outta my beautiful new knife  In terms of HOW sharp I get it? A bit sharper than OOTB, not a lot. It may be the same, and I just don't remember how sharp it was. When the edge is fresh, I can slice tomatoes, but I can't get them paper thin like some brag. That may be technique, not my knife. Really not sure. What I do know for sure is I have never felt a knife as sharp as mine in our very large kitchen, so I am pretty proud of that even if I am no expert  The last few times I have taken the Tojiro out, it has held its edge much better, but still needed honing after each job.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

> In terms of how I sharpen, I tried to find the video series I watched to learn, but I can't for the life of me remember who they were by.


Forget whomever you watched and go watch the videos at Japanese Knife Imports. Jon is a wealth of knowledge on all things related to Japanese knives and stones.

Jim


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"Trust me, I'm a lawyer "

Damn BDL your just keeping me smiling lately 

I can not argue you comments on the handle, and the ones I have used are just as you described them to me a few years back when I started my journey to the world of J knives.

Except for the small blades which actually have a handle that is better sized to the knife (my exp is w both petty's) the handles are just odd, but I honestly have not had an issue with this during actual use. 

Sure I do not have to put them to task 8-14 hours each day, and I am sure i would modify both the handles and square sharp spine if I did, but that would be more about comfort and elevating discomfort than performance and edge retention etc.

I think the sharpening and grip issues may lead us to a solution, and hope your "expertise" will help speed up the process


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Imaya I do a little happy-dance everytime BDL posts.  You know the writing will be entertaining and the information great.  I've done a bit of original work in biomechanics/ergonomics, related to knives, swords, baseball bats rackets, etc, etc,  So let me elaborate on how on the money the grip thing is.  You have small hands and you've been trying to pinch a blade, and also wrap your other 3 fingers tight around a big handle, all of them.  For starters, your middle finger can do very little in terms of provinding leveraged force through the handle to the blade.  So just keep it touching the handle and butted against the bolster/heal area, and in all other ways just going along for the ride.  Your pinky and ring finger are your power fingers here, but they should not be trying to wrap around the handle.  They only need to be touching the bottom of the handle, and you should only be flexing them at the very moment you need the leverage to begin the cutting action.  Just that simple, and some attention and practice make it reflex.

Rick


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

just round down the spine with sandpaper on the part where you grip it the most.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

FranzB69 said:


> just round down the spine with sandpaper on the part where
> you grip it the most.


That is something i keep thinking as well, but it was stated earlier that there is a desire not to do this as not to decrease the value of the knife if she decides to give up on it and sell it etc.

Though I understand the thinking completely I also keep thinking how many of the higher cost knives I have checked out were without the sharp edges and smoooth etc

Still leaning towards the idea that much of the problem is coming from grip, and much of the cause for that is from a combo of conditions, edge/sharpening and lastly the handle.

Something for comparison is that all the tojiro I have owned or sharpened for others will slice tomatoes effortlessly and I mean no more pressure on your grip than what is needed to hold and move the knife.

Sharpness really does trump all, but it's got to be sharp!


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

yes what you said is true, but for folks like myself that have a heavy grip on knives, no matter how sharp, is pretty hard to unlearn. it's a bad thing to have specially with knives that do not have rounded down spines.

many, if not all more expensive japanese knives available have rounded down spines and choils, at least those that are marketed towards the western world. so in my opinion, it's not really making the knife "cheaped out", but more like giving more value to the knife so you can actually use the knife for longer periods of time. specially for folks that have grips like mine. this is appreciated by people who have to use the knife for hours upon hours at a time.

most cooks will just tell you when your knife starts to dig in your hand because of that spine problem, "oh you'll just develop a callous part on your hand and it won't be a problem anymore". and I have, but it still bothers me. 

however i do wanna unlearn my firm grip, but years of having a western blade have made me this way. lol. so the quick solution really is to sand it down and round out, then in hopes of time and practice unlearn that darn grip.

japanese don't really use the pinch grip as much as people that have learned to cut the western way. they usually use the "accuser" aka the "pointer" grip. so it's not really a problem for them.

rambling now. lol.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

After working with my Tojiro exclusively today, paying close attention, I have a few observations.

First, it seems I didn't sharpen it evenly. Some spots are sharper than others. I knew I didn't do a perfect job, but I realized that the dead spots were the real problem, as the spots I did get a good sharpening on were sharp and stayed sharp. I will sharpen it again in the morning after my stone has soaked. I will also go back to magic marker trick 

Now, in terms of grip, I watched video, looked at pictures, and understand how I am supposed to hold a knife with a soft pinch. In practicality, my hands are just plain too small. There is too much play from left to right, as my finger does not extend far enough down the side of the blade to get enough leverage. I tried over and over to do a soft grip, and ended up having to stick the spine where my finger meets my palm. Nice new blister coming in tonight!  My hands are practically too small to hold the knife securely without extending my finger as far down the blade as I can when I pinch it. However, there is still no need to squeeze hard. That is something I made a conscious effort to pay attention to. I made sure to keep the grease off my handle, and there was no slipping.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Imaya said:


> There is too much play from left to right, as my finger does not extend far enough down the side of the blade to get enough leverage. I tried over and over to do a soft grip, and ended up having to stick the spine where my finger meets my palm. Nice new blister coming in tonight!  My hands are practically too small to hold the knife securely without extending my finger as far down the blade as I can when I pinch it.


I can't imagine your hands are so small they are preventing you from gripping far enough down the side of the blade. If you post a picture or 2 of your grip we can all see just what's going on.

Rick


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Franz I believe in "whatever works " and a different grip, shaping handles, and rounding a sharp spine all sound fine to me 

We all have different views at times etc but who can argue with being more comfortable, or that we all can be more productive when not fighting our tools


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya thats great info, and I'm sure you will figure it all out in time etc.

Do post a pic if you can as I'm sure the members here will help you find a solution!


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I will get a picture tomorrow at work.

I noticed that with my little 5.5" utility, I am using a soft pinch despite it not being all that sharp at the moment. So it certainly isn't a lack of sharpness that is causing me to grip harder. Maybe the weight is another factor to consider?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't give it too much worry. I'm sure the group here will help you find the cause of it all, and it may end up being as simple as your view of the knife being too large causing you to subconsciously make changes your not even aware of.

Think of that being similar to a golfer who is so much not wanting to hit his or her ball into the water ahead that their mind focus leads them to a swim. 

That one became much more powerful for me at least when I saw it in person and learned how true it can be lol. 

But either way starting with a good sharp edge is a great place to start, and eliminates another problem etc.


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

Imaya, I would consider sanding down the spine (if done carefully and neatly) and/or sanding the handle could both be potential considered "improvements."  A used knife loses some of its value immediately, and I think making either or both of those changes would only have a marginal effect on the value of the knife, if you do in fact end up selling it. 

The upside of doing so would be potentially finding a solution with the knife you already have, which is certainly more economical than selling the knife and then buying something new. 

My $.02.  Good luck.


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## franzb69 (Jul 9, 2012)

+1 to this



> maya, I would consider sanding down the spine (if done carefully and neatly) and/or sanding the handle could both be potential considered "improvements." A used knife loses some of its value immediately, and I think making either or both of those changes would only have a marginal effect on the value of the knife, if you do in fact end up selling it.
> 
> The upside of doing so would be potentially finding a solution with the knife you already have, which is certainly more economical than selling the knife and then buying something new.


the only devaluation of a knife for me would be less knife height from frequent sharpenings, and over thinning the knife and especially thinning it wrong. then of course irreversible rust, too many scratches, dings or handle cracks/damage and bent parts or chips.

the sanding down part is a plus for me, coz i would immediately go for that with a new knife that needs rounding out the choil and spine, or any other part of the knife that might seem to need "improvement", saves me work to do it myself.

=D

but that's just my opinion.

and yes good luck.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Some handles just don't work for some people. That may be the case here. I suspect we can make things better by tinkering with your grip and improving your sharpening, but "better" and "good enough" aren't necessarily the same thing.

Small hands usually aren't that much of a problem with big handles, but it's an individual thing. It's not like we can replace your hands and sell the old ones on ebay.

Besides we don't want "good enough," we want *absofreakinlutely fantastic*. Is that so much to ask?

As a rule: 

You should "ease" the spine of any knife which doesn't come with a rounded crown;
You should also ease the back of any blade with edges square enough to be uncomfortable and/or cut you; but
I'm starting to think that although easing the spine may help you a little, it's not the answer to your incompatibility with the DP.
_*BUT*_

Maybe we should start thinking "new knife." Fortunately, there are a lot of good knives with better handles than the DP. Also fortunately, you seem to have enough interest in sharpening that we can start thinking about knives which might be problematic for people who won't

Getting back to the first couple of things, let's do improve your chopping grip and your sharpening. 

Read my post, Getting a Grip On A Good Pinch and see if that describes what you're calling a soft pinch or not; and

Yes to the Magic Marker trick, it will let us know which parts of your knife aren't getting sharpened and give us some insight into why you're having problems. The time to stop using is it when you've learned to judge what's going on at the edge with other tricks and tests -- which is to say, not yet; and
We need to get you away from stroke counting and into the burr method. Drawing burrs is a critical part of the sharpening process (at least for most sharpening methods). Testing for the presence, extent, and orientation of burrs by touch is a lot more reliable than inferring their existence by counting strokes.
BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Agree with all the good advice in the three above posts.

Though I would still want to be sure I could not resolve my issues before moving on that may or may not be your path to finding happiness etc. Yes whatever works no matter anything else WORKS and thats important.

I wouldn't give too much worry to what you may recoup if you decide to sell either now or down the road. I do not remember a knife I lost money on, and with the currency exchanges and price increases from Japan I suspect this will not change anytime soon.

Far as changing your sharpening style etc goes try what BDL suggests and if that doesn't fit you for some reason consider that you may get better results from sectioning (can explain more if need etc) than doing the whole edge in one swoop. Even if you find that chasing a burr is not your thing you can still count strokes but when sectioning a small length at a time and then doing the opposite side etc you may find it easier to hold your angle steady.

This style is well illustrated on various vids etc but I personally liked a few by Murray Carter and also Dave Martel that showed a different take on how its done.

I do use both styles and am still mastering those rounded edges towards the point on some knives etc (it is perpetual learning cycle lol) but I also know very well that until your able to get the proper results with your current style you will find it easier to break it down into smaller pieces or sections and be able to better monitor your held angle and results. If you can chase a burr as well then even better!


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

Alright, had some trouble getting a picture with one hand while the other held the knife, this is the best I could do!

This is my standard pinch grip.





  








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And, not sure if you can tell anything from the pictures, but this is the sharpening job on it right now (I noticed the chips when I took the pictures. Don't know who did it, but someone picked up my knife and used it for opening a jar or something equally stupid, or maybe a pan, another metal knife, etc. were thrown on top of it while it was on the table. Very crowded, it gets battered unintentionally quite often, unfortunately.):





  








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The edge you see here is only a week old. I used the magic marker trick, and felt for a burr before moving on as I sharpened. The magic marker didn't seem to work too well, because the water on the stone was washing it off in the first few strokes!


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm very new to this site (actually my first post here) and although Ive never been a professional chef I've been cooking for over 50 years.  That is not an attempt to qualify myself as anywhere near "professional", quite honestly, I think I plateaued out years ago and its only been in the last couple that I've even begun to spring up a few notches to where I can even discuss fine cooking with a professional.  So, with that in mind I have a few comments, more in the way of questions. 

Over the years I've been "Sold" my share of knives from "cutco" (blushing, yeah, I took the bait) to Wusthof and Henckel.  Other than the serrated blades, the Cutcos are next to useless. The serrated blades are good for cutting tomatoes, nuf said on cutco.  A couple years ago I bought a Shun Ken Onion 8" chef's knife (just couldn't afford the 10").  I am only a home chef so what do I know but for my taste the Ken Onion Shun feels like an extension of my hand. After years of holding a knife incorrectly (forefinger on the spine) the Ken Onion naturally guides my hand into the correct position.  I love to prep with this knife and probably "respect" it more than any blade I've owned before. So I am a little surprised that Shun was not mentioned in any of the recomendations. Is that because of price?  Maintenance? 

I own a ceramic rod for steeling that came with an Edge Pro Apex sharpening kit a bought a few years ago and for the better part of a year its the only thing I used on my Shun.  After about a year the blade went from amazingly sharp to just "sharp".  My skills with the Edge Pro are still not what I like so I sent my Shun out to a professional sharpener stressing that the knife was designed for a 16 degree edge.  I was disappointed with the results.  It was "sharp" but not what I expected and not close to "out of the box" sharp. So, next question:  Am I expecting to much from a professional sharpener.  I also noticed a couple references to electric sharpeners (think the Chef's Choice 15 Trizor was mentioned).  I've always been a little concerned about these, mostly because the fear of excessively grinding away the edge. Am I over concerned about this?  Obviously improving my skills with the Edge Pro would be preferable but is an electric a good quick solution without damaging the edge??

Finally, I was also surprised that Global was not mentioned.  I was under the impression that many professionals choose Global as one of the "better bangs for the buck".

Your thoughts and critiques please,

Bruce


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Shun are okay for a home cook but really entry level to a pro.  At least, a pro that's also a knife geek.  Telling an enthusiast of Japanese knives that you have a Shun is like telling a Porsche owner about your Mustang.  Still, they're serviceable.  Global is also pedestrian.  I consider Tojiro to be somewhat better for less money.  There are probably 12-15 brands that are the same price or cheaper than Shun & Global that I commonly recommend.

With a little practice with your EP you should be able to do far better than most "professional" sharpeners out there.  Sadly, about the only thing that makes one a professional is charging money.  There are some very good sharpeners out there and some that are pretty dodgy.  Depending on where you live there's a reasonable chance that a Shun might be the best knife they've ever seen, or even the only Japanese knife they've ever sharpened.  It may not be obvious to them that it should be sharpened a bit differently than the German knives they probably do most often.

Even sending a Shun back to the manufacturer for sharpening or repair can be dicey.  A coworker of mine put a pretty serious chip in the edge of his Shun near the heel.  This is a bad place since you can't put metal back on, only take more off.  Still, I was really shocked by how poor the repair was.  They "sharpened" it for him but they did a pathetic job.  I felt bad for him so I sharpened it up all the way to 10k on Choceras.

Welcome to CT!  This is a great little forum.  A bit off the beaten path but we worth the while.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Imaya, 2 mistakes obvious about your grip

You're not making use of your pinky, it provides no leverage curled up there on the side of the handle.  From what I can see you could easily get the tip of your pinky on the bottom of the handle.

Second is the index finger placement with your finger-pad flat on the blade.  This is uncomfortable for me to even assume the grip.  It put's excess strain on the flexor muscle.  The outside edge of your index finger is what should be contacting the blade.  Look again at the photo sequence BDL linked to, it shows both these points clearly enough.

Mimicking your grip I am forced to hold the blade almost perpendicular to my forearm, while ideally it should be inline with the forearm.  This must really tax everything from shoulder to figertip.

Rick


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

Hi Phaedrus,

Thanks for your comments and clearing up my questions.  Think I'll practice my EP skills on the Cutcos, at lease I'm not going to mind if I screw up their edges while I'm learning.  Of course your answers leave wanting to feel the difference between the Mustang and the Porsche.  Sadly I did that once with an audiophile who introduced me to "High End" audio equipment.  I made the mistake of saying my ears wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  Turns out they could (no, I didn't end up investing $8K in an amplifier but wished that I could).  It doesn't sound like the better knives are that out of the price range though.

The Professional Service I used services the Boston south shore region and think they have been around for a while but you are probably right about not dealing with Japanese knives very often. 

Thanks again,

Bruce


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, the audio stuff is expensive too!  I've got about $13,000 in my audio system. While that's a lot of money to me I know guys that have spent that on cables alone.


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I probably need to get better pictures, because I was torquing my hand to get that second picture. The first one is most accurate, but you can't see much! The knife, when held, is definitely NOT perpendicular to my hand. The knife is parallel, the handle lining up with my forearm. I just picked up one of the knives at home to check my pinky, and I do curl it under normally. Looking at that second picture, I think I was just trying to show the placement of my fingers in the pinch on the blade. That part is accurate.


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## gtm2013 (Dec 21, 2012)

I should be most grateful for information about the ARTIFEX line of chef's knives advertised by CKTG. They are being sold for $70, and the Tojiro DP 210 mm for $80. Also, your opinions on the MAC Superior Santoku 6.5 inches at $75. Thank you.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The Artifex is a very good knife!  I don't own one but I've handled them.  A buddy of mine from an audio forum had Mark @ CKtG ship me one in M390 to sharpen.  It was a very nice knife for the money.  It was actually pretty sharp OOtB but I polished it up to 10k.  If you want a 210mm the Artifex is a great deal.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya said:


> I probably need to get better pictures, because I was torquing my hand to get that second picture. The first one is most accurate, but you can't see much! The knife, when held, is definitely NOT perpendicular to my hand. The knife is parallel, the handle lining up with my forearm. I just picked up one of the knives at home to check my pinky, and I do curl it under normally. Looking at that second picture, I think I was just trying to show the placement of my fingers in the pinch on the blade. That part is accurate.


I wasn't sure which post to quote, but figure were all following along anyhow etc.

When viewing your pictures I saw the same things as stated previous, but did think the pic was tweaked due to how you were trying to take the picture.

Maybe try to take the pics in the same positions on the board as BDL did in his blog on get a grip etc. I know it may not be the easiest pic to take but well should be more telling too.

I'm far from a master of grip etc, but I knew you would get good feedback from the other members 

Also I know it is hard enough to view an edge in a way that will allow you to learn from what you see vs how you sharpened etc and pics are even tougher (for me at least) but from what I see (beyond the chip lol) it looks like you "may" and again it is hard to tell from the pic alone have two things to look into. First is that it appears that the angle may change along the length (edge of blade not held at same angle to stone along entire knife etc) and also there is what looks like could possibly be either a burr or wire in the one pic.

I do not know if you pull your edge though a cork, soft wood or some similar item to pull off any wire etc but it couldn't hurt to try the next time your putting the knife to the stones. I get a little nuts on this and keep a 30X loupe with my stones so I can view it up close just to be sure I end up with a clean edge (it is actually very interesting and "telling" to use the glint test through some sort of magnifier). I can be a little OCD with stuff like that lol, but if it is there it would produce the really sharp and quickly dulling edge you describe (ask me how I know lol).

One other thing that I can not compare right now because I do not have a DP that is similar in blade height anymore (just my petty remains) but I also remember having a slightly wider edge on the ones I had and did for others etc that were similar. I know that is something that can be confusing as the edge on my Fujiwara is much wider one the front but thinner on the back but it is also an asymmetrical edge and grind, but my Konosuke edge is much thinner and it is pretty much 60/40.

Maybe someone more experienced can make sense of that and comment etc but I know there is more to the cause of your not being happy than just grip though that will make a big difference as well.

Oh and since I mention the petty I almost suggested one in your other thread until I realized all the different large stuff you do etc because it has a much smaller handle and the thinner blade seems to like an even more acute edge, but I am almost afraid to suggest another DP until you get past your current issues.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

-bc- said:


> Hi Phaedrus,
> 
> Thanks for your comments and clearing up my questions. Think I'll practice my EP skills on the Cutcos, at lease I'm not going to mind if I screw up their edges while I'm learning. Of course your answers leave wanting to feel the difference between the Mustang and the Porsche. Sadly I did that once with an audiophile who introduced me to "High End" audio equipment. I made the mistake of saying my ears wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Turns out they could (no, I didn't end up investing $8K in an amplifier but wished that I could). It doesn't sound like the better knives are that out of the price range though.
> 
> ...


I have not had any dealings with a "pro" sharpening service in a really long time, but did have the opportunity to speak with two different ones over the last year, and found some interesting things from it.

First was that both sharpened by machine, no matter what they were sharpening (knives, scissors etc) for the most part were done that way. The one guy did claim to have the ability to polish on some stones he had for a while, but also advised that it had been a long while since he used them. Basically the thing was they do not have a call for doing anything more advanced than what there doing now, and also that it is a price and profit concern where time is money and "no one want's to spend to get anything special" etc.

So I guess if you wanted to be able to get good results you may need to find someone or place that specializes in Japanese knives and has the proper equipment and skills.

That all does make sense though since the majority of people have very different knives and ideas on what is sharp etc. and I do get it about the typical "white handle" knives used in many establishments but I can not figure why anyone would want the same process on their 300-500 scissors (yea shocked me too lol).


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Been in this raquet over 50 years. Here is how I pick a knife.n't look at price or what knife looks like. I hold it in my hand, feel the weight distibutions, The rocking angle  etc. if it feels good to me I buy it. Could cost 5.00  or  105.00 or more. as long as it feels good .Not into ginzu, machete style or hula hoop type fads of today, Not trying to impress anyone, as a knife never made any dish I made taste any better.  AND CERTAINLY NOT INTO STANDING THERE AND SHARPENING IT ALL DAY. JUST TO HAVE PEOPLE LOOK AT IT IN AWE


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

LennyD said:


> I wasn't sure which post to quote, but figure were all following along anyhow etc.
> 
> When viewing your pictures I saw the same things as stated previous, but did think the pic was tweaked due to how you were trying to take the picture.
> 
> ...


You brought up the two things I was most concerned about with my sharpening I was hoping to get some input on! One, is I was afraid the edge is too narrow. You can pretty clearly see how wide I have it, so if the edge is too small, I would like to know how to fix it! (I think a more shallow angle?). And the other one I know is much harder to tell, but I wasn't sure if I was getting an even angle the entire length. That is why I got the edge guide. As a rule, I am known for how consistently inconsistent I am 

In terms of the wire, I will try to pull it over a cork. I usually just use the stone to strop it lightly, then run a soft cloth or paper towel along the edge to grab anything I missed.


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

BC (and everyone else), Shun restarted their free sharpening service back in September (they discontinued it a couple years ago). See here for more details.

http://shun.kaiusaltd.com/warranty

BTW, you still have to pay shipping. I'm not sure if I would judge their routine sharpening by comparing it to a repair job, but the repair job does raise questions.

Imaya, would it be possible for you to have someone else take photos of your grip? Not that I have anything to offer, but the analysis will be more likely to address your concerns if our experts here can see your actual grip.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

toddnmd said:


> BC (and everyone else), Shun restarted their free sharpening service back in September (they discontinued it a couple years ago). See here for more details.
> 
> http://shun.kaiusaltd.com/warranty


Free but the turnaround states,

"Please allow two weeks processing for sharpening and warranty orders, plus round trip shipping of up to four weeks."

A bit long to be without your knife.

Jim


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_Grip:_

You're not actually "pinching" your knife. "Pinch" means that if the knife suddenly disappeared the pads of your thumb and index finger would meet exactly. It's not the length of your index finger that makes it hard for you to keep the knife stable, but the fact that your thumb is pointing along the blade, rather than down it. That should be easy to correct.

Your back fingers wrap around the knife too far. The handle doesn't need that much stabilization. If you lift your wrist a little, you'll use less of your back fingers. Getting some arch in your wrist and coming "over the top" a little more will make the knife more agile and help it "point" more intuitively (i.e., the knife will go where you look automatically). That is, as long as you keep your wrist on the same line as your elbow and forearm.

You've gotta wonder if these problems stem from the discomfort and lack of confidence you feel when you hold your Tojiro. Try the fixes and if they don't help, it's time to think about a different knife. You have a couple or three very good choices in or around the price.

_Sharpening:_

Your bevels appear even enough.

Keep using the Magic Marker trick even if that means replacing the ink frequently until you're SURE you're sharpening all the way down to the edge for the entire length of the knife.

What I can't tell by looking at a picture is how fine your burrs are and how completely you deburr. Whether you rely on "burr method" techniques of detecting the burr through its various stages, and using your understanding to dictate your progress or not, sharpening is a process of creating a burr, refining it, and deburring.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

Hi Lenny,

I didn't see it actually sharpened but I know it was done by the owner while I was waiting because my other knives were brought out to me first then heard the owner working on my Shun in the back.  Sounded like a power water stone to me so my guess is that it was hand held on one power stone. 

The up side though:  today I decided it was time to hone my skills (no pun intended, okay, it WAS intended) with the EP, after putting a very nice edge on a couple of my German knives I worked on the Shun. I immediately found the angle was wrong so from scratch and took it al the way to 3000 grit tape.  The edge is far superior to the "professional" job (not quite ootb sharp) and I'm pleased with how it came out. 

So you CAN teach an old dog   Gota admit, having some good Youtube tutorials were very helpful.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Ed i can't argue with your method entirely as I'm pretty sure the first thing anyone from the greenest noob to the most experienced does is pick it up and see how it feels in their hand. Makes sense too.

That's just what I had done as well, and l even remember that while I was in the business I was not all that concerned with knives in general either and long as they cut I was good.

Thing is to me at least that most of my back then was spent on doing and learning so not lots of time to mess around with changing out the tools etc.

I also know how uneasy I was with my first J knife purchase because I couldn't actually handle one etc. It was almost blind faith 

Fast forward to today and I can't believe the improvement in cutlery, and can only imagine how this may have changed things if I had an opportunity to use what I have and know now. 

Sure sharpening can take up time, and it would require to be made a part of the daily/weekly or even monthly activity of a busy kitchen but hey you got to do all kinds of other maintenance, servicing and cleaning too, and those don't improve anything as much as keep it going.

I honestly cannot think of going back, and am finally to the point where I'm not always having to stop or worry about rocking at all. Still feels strange but oh so much better 

And I can


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Imaya said:


> You brought up the two things I was most concerned about with my sharpening I was hoping to get some input on! One, is I was afraid the edge is too narrow. You can pretty clearly see how wide I have it, so if the edge is too small, I would like to know how to fix it! (I think a more shallow angle?). And the other one I know is much harder to tell, but I wasn't sure if I was getting an even angle the entire length. That is why I got the edge guide. As a rule, I am known for how consistently inconsistent I am
> 
> In terms of the wire, I will try to pull it over a cork. I usually just use the stone to strop it lightly, then run a soft cloth or paper towel along the edge to grab anything I missed.


Judging angle can be tough, but can be made easier too.

I know there are a few "contraptions " that you can buy (angle guide, cube etc) and some seem better than others.

At this point I dont think the angle is as important as the consistency of it, and the burr.

I won't argue with BDL on the idea of a new knife (thats the fun part right) but if its not an option or whatever then lets figure this out. 

I also agree that judging an edge or a burr from a pic isnt the preferred method, but I am seeing something reflecting the light from the flash. Couldn't be sure what it is, but it's there.

On the other hand I may have just spent way too much time viewing my own edges lol


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

BC great news, now be sure to make it a little better each time till you get it the way you want etc.


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

For sure Lenny; sharpening, as with cooking, begins with loving what you are doing.  Its part of the reason I'm not a professional chef, I think if I cooked professionally I'd come to hate it.  I need to be free to create, experiment, and learn as I want.  Kind of hard to do that on a line.  I'm sure nobody is going to put the same care into my tools and I will, and it gives me the opportunigy to learn a new skill.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Hahaha! I don't know a single pro cook that doesn't hate it _sometimes!_/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

What's not to hate lol.

Seriously though the reason I left the trade wasn't due to the job or any of the things I had to perform etc, and not even some of the sociopaths I worked for as all of that was the fun part (yea I'm a lil nuts) but it was the combination of the hours that totally interfered with having a social life and being able to increase my earnings outside the industry.

Still enjoy all areas when I have the time.


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

Wait a sec!!! You mean Bourdain isn't the ONLY sociopath in the business?  *grin*  I'd never survive, I'm just not crazy enough, the voices assured me of it.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Well they weren't all actual sociopaths, and I'm sure any actual diagnosis would have been an interesting read, but as luck would have it I did learn almost as much about mental and social disorders as I did about the Biz etc.

Oddly even beyond this as my career changed through the years with entirely different industries and positions I still seemed to somehow find those who liked to throw fits, make up elaborate stories they told so often they began to believe their own BS, would show up in completely different personalities day to day, loved throwing anything within reach across the room when things didn't go their way, do push ups in the middle of a busy shift to reduce stress, fire half the staff because they had a bad day (normally right before busiest days of the year) and I even had one that liked to bang his head on his board, but the best I can remember was a 6'5" 450lb coworker that in a office environment would literally throw himself through a door knocking it off the wall or even through the wall itself if he got frustrated. Think of it like a huge kid with ADDHD on crystal meth and crack lmao.

I know this was way OT, but you brought back memories lol.


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## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

LennyD said:


> but the best I can remember was a 6'5" 450lb coworker that in a office environment would literally throw himself through a door knocking it off the wall or even through the wall itself if he got frustrated. Think of it like a huge kid with ADDHD on crystal meth and crack lmao.


ROFL!!!!!


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

Hahahahaha, That tops any story I know and I've worked with some strange guys.


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## jlecount (Dec 11, 2012)

OK, I can't resist.  Please forgive the OT response...

I worked at AIG Trading for a while.  At one point ON THE TRADING FLOOR, two FX traders decide to have a milk drinking contest.  The contest ended when one of them spewed milk everywhere.

Another trader threw his chair out the window when he had a bad day.

Don't miss investment banks much. ;-)


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## -bc- (Dec 15, 2012)

Yeah but I thought insanity was a prerequisite for being a trader


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I guess it is time for my yearly check-in!

First, to tie up an end to where the conversation let off;

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/02/the-jobs-with-the-most-psychopaths/

That article, or a similar one another site mirrored, was posted a few months ago on the kitchen billboard by one of the chefs. They apparently got a kick out of that. I am not a chef, but *have* been a care aid, a teacher, charity worker, got my bachelor's degree in fine art (creative arts), and enjoy doing craft-type work, building things, woodworking, metalworking, etc with my art. Needless to say, I am pretty unhappy with my job in a kitchen. I have fallen into the 'family' with the common workers, who adore me, but cannot touch the 'club' with the chefs and their favorite cooks. I feel doomed to be a cook forever, which is a waste of time to me. If I am not learning, I really don't care to do mindless menial work. One of my many ideas and aspirations is to open a restaurant (and I have a FANTASTIC original idea for one too, if I do say so myself...), and use the success of that to expand it into a chain, and use the profits for my ultimate goal, starting my own unrelated line of food and grocery products that will help get nutritious, whole food to those who can't afford boutique organic and all natural products. Because, you see, I am not a sociopath. I don't need to make a dragon-pile of money, helping people is all I want from my ultimate goal.

But, before all that, I need to learn the food industry. And pay the bills, because I need a roof over my head and utilities. Neither is happening.

Unrelated tangent, sorry! On to knives!

Been working more with the Tojiro, of course. I am liking it a lot more after working on my grip. However, I still am apprehensive about bringing it out. It isn't a workhorse, more of a bust-out. It loses the edge too quickly, and seems to require more care and time to stop to hone than I can give it. I work with cases of tomatoes at a time. Halfway through a case, I need to stop and hone for a few minutes, which I just can't do. Tomatoes seem to be the hardest, next is dicing proteins or mincing very large amounts of herbs (a case of cilantro to go with that case of tomatoes...). I need that knife sharp for when I need a sharp knife, so I don't like to wear the edge if I don't have to. I use the serrated for as much as I can, slicing what I can with it and finishing the dice with the Tojiro if there is a lot to do. Otherwise, that Victorinox Fibrox is my real workhorse. I am not afraid to abuse the shit outta it. I will replace it next season, a solid $20 investment! Mostly, when I think about it, the reason I use mostly serrated has to do with what I mentioned previously; I am stuck where I am. I clean and cut case after case of fruit every single day. It is faster, easier, safer, and cleaner with the whippy serrated knife. I would say fruit is easily 60-70% of all the knife work I do. A lot of what I do does not even involve knife work, because my boss likes my presentation work. So, I do tons of cold platter arrangements and general menial condiment filling and simple recipes. The complicated stuff is left to the veterans.

Money is tight, but I always get a small amount of xmas, and knives are something I tend to consider. I have dropped all ideas of trying any kind of scalloped edge that *may* work, and want to keep it a bit more simple. A local knife dealer came by with some knives and sharpening service. I tried out a Mac Superior he had on display, and was surprised at the weight! It looked like a Santuku, was the same size, but had much more heft to it. I forgot what he said it was, but looking up the available models, it must have been the 6.5" cleaver. Looks like a Santuku, but feels more like a western knife in hand. Sharp as all hell, beautiful edge, nice weight and felt good in hand. I read a thread that talked about the Superior line, and how light they were compared to the heft of the Professional series. The Superior is less expensive, and I am not sure if the MAC Professional Santuku is comparable to the MAC Superior 6.5" cleaver? I seem to recall being quoted $85 for it by the local guy, but I might be remembering incorrectly, the price is much higher on the website. Just a thought, don't want to go much over $100 on this, and might change my mind again. 

Speaking of the knife vendors with their sharpening service... I took them my serrated knife, which was on the way out. I figured they couldn't make it any worse, as I am ready to replace it anyways. They sharpened it, but oddly, the serrations were still rounded off just as bad. It's like they just went in the bevel and sharpened it, and didn't put the edge back on the serrations. Odd, but it bought a few months on the knife! Anyways, right after I dropped off the serrated knife, I had no intention of letting them touch my Tojiro with their band sharpening machine. I checked out the knives for sale, immediately looking at the MACs he had, the nicest he had out. He asked what I was using, I told him I had a Tojiro and I basically stopped for the particular knife I was holding. He excitedly said "Oh, so you are looking for the GOOD stuff!" and pulled out a knife case. He showed me the custom work they did, some nice carbon knives they forged in-shop. Not bad looking! He pulled out some Globals and told me he has lots of nice stuff at the store, but mostly brings the cheap stuff to the resorts, since that is what people want. We talked about Japanese knives a bit, he named off a nice list of good Japanese knives he carries, he explained the mysterious heft in the Mac Superior that looked like a Santuku I was holding, then my boss swooped into the room, bought the three cheapest knives he had, and shooed me back to work. Right before break, I thought about the fact he seemed to carry more Japanese knives than Europeon ones, and might know how to sharpen them. They had free sharpening, so it might not hurt to ask if he brought some stones and could work on my Tojiro, as it was overdue for a sharpening and I still am unsure if I am even doing an adequate job at it. I mean, he MADE HIS OWN KNIVES... He MUST know better than me!

I took it to him, asking if he had waterstones and could do a nice job with it instead of running it over the grinder. He laughed and said not to believe the 'hype' of the waterstones. He uses the band sharpener for all the high end stuff he sells, stuff much nicer than my Tojiro, sells all of his professional sharpening jobs off of it, and uses it to sharpen his carbon blades he makes in house, which did look and feel really nice. He said they have a 1200 grit belt for it (I held back a chuckle knowing I have the 4k combo stone at home) and it was a professional job. I figured a 1200 grit job was halfway there, and I could polish it at home once he got the proper bevel and a good start on it, because I might not be sharpening it right! I left it with him, he gave it the the sharpening guy and set it aside as special, and I went off to my break.

Came back, picked it up. He declared "That is what a sharp knife feels like!" I opened the sheath and my heart sank as I gave him a weak smile, mumbled a thanks, and left. I saw right off the bat there was zero extra care given to it. No stropping, no deburring, covered in carbon. Looking closer, immediately noticed how small the bevel was. I had a decent sized one on it before. No more. Closer look revealed scratches ALL OVER the bevel. 1200 grit?? Ya, right. He didn't bother to change the effin belt. It was sanded with a 600 grit, 800 grit if I am feeling kind. Luckily, it had a VERY light touch. They only worked over the bevel already there, from what I could tell. It was superficially sharp with a narrow bevel, just like all my coworker's knives, and what I _though__t _I asked him to NOT do... I imagine they do that to give a super sharp edge that will wear out quickly and encourage people to go back and pay for another sharpening. And, I could SEE the burrs and metal shards! WTF?? I took it back to my station and cleaned it, deburred it, and worked it over my ceramic honing rod, immediately getting it sharper. However, the bevel was still super shallow and really scratched up (OCD thing, I realize, because i am used to the mirror finish I keep on it...), and it just... didn't seem as sharp as it _could_ be. Took it home, 20 minutes on the combo 1k/4k stone, got my bevel back and it was sharp as I could get it. (the cut on my finder from grazing over it as I cleaned it still hurts, reminding me...) Which, of course, was MUCH sharper than the 'professionals' got it. And my edge was smooth and scratch free, like a mirror. It isn't perfect, as I am no expert (I could see the slight skids and flaws, but it takes very close scrutiny), but it sure helped my confidence! I KNOW the sharpening job *I* did was FAR superior to the shitty free one I got. Though, a professional with a waterstone and my nice knife I am sure could do much better, the little bit of amateur care I showed my knife gave FAR superior results to the lazy, careless 'free sharpening' I got from 'professionals' who ASSURED me they knew how to take care of a nice knife. I won't make that mistake again. I just hope to one day find a Japanese knife expert who can really give me a nice edge! I thought I found one, but was very mistaken, my poor Tojiro having to suffer for this knowledge.

All I have for now! I like my Tojiro better, might like it more if I had an opportunity to use it more. I am sure it would kick serious ass at home. And Victorinox Fibrox serrated bread knives, for the price, are the way to go! Super sharp out of box, replace it when it gets worn out, and you will always have a great bread knife you aren't afraid to toss around, lose, abuse, and replace! Cheap Victorinox paring knife is what I use (not often) but it is super sharp and whippy, perfect for the Garde Manger fancy fruit/ vegetable garnishes I carve, nice and sharp and easy to maneuver due to being thin and agile. I use a Zyliss small serrated knife for halving a few cases of grape tomatoes at a time, works like charm and EONS faster and better than a regular paring knife! Has held up just fine! I picked up a pair of Wustof shears, couldn't tell you which model. They were on sale. They get used often. They work great even though I cut through lots of grape stems with them. Messermeister serrated peeler. I need no other peeler. I use it daily. It peels everything; carrots, potatoes, ginger, squashes. It doesn't gouge at all and it easy to maneuver enough to get only skins off. And it does all this fast. It was $12 bucks. Easily the best peeler I have ever owned, and I will replace it as soon as it wears out (getting there, will need to be replaced by this time next year) None of the other knives are worth mentioning, as that is my regular arsenal.


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

If you're using a serrated that much, maybe you should consider getting the tojiro itk bread knife.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Nice to hear an OP return to the thread after a while to relate experiences and results, doesn't  happen often enough.

Rick


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## bkchefy (Dec 10, 2013)

Wusthof are crap, just so you know I've had them, I've been using a shun knives for years know I I love them. I work in a one Michelin star restaurant in nyc and every cook in there has a Japanese knife they all swear by it, it might be out of your budget but go to www.korin.com and you'll see great knife selection there too.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Nice to hear an OP return to the thread after a while to relate experiences and results, doesn't happen often enough.
> 
> Rick


Totally agree, and open ended threads seem popular in forums on any topic not just cooking or knives.

I'm still a bit confused on the experience with edge retention on the Tojiro. Just not in line with my experience etc.

I do believe they will need more regular attention in a professional environment, and a weekly touch up would seem a fair estimate for sharpening.

It was interesting to see the experience with a so called professional sharpener, but from just discussing knives with a few sharpening service place's this would seem normal, and when you consider it is a business to make money it only makes sense for them to do a fast and cheap job etc.

Far as serrated edges I prefer scalloped because I have been able to get the edge to come back by slowly working it with a hone. lot of work compared to a fine edge but works.

I also am finding that those fibrox get plenty of use, and though likely all based on cost in our throw away world etc I found 3 people using them for cutting rolls (sushi) and that seemed odd.

One even admitted that it was just too expensive to be grinding down his $550 Massamotto to a tooth pick from sharpening, and that I was unusual to notice the difference in the
end product from not needing pressure to complete the cut and that required to make the forschner work etc (guess my OCD makes me notice the little things).

was an interesting discussion to say the least lol


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## imaya (Dec 6, 2011)

I am not sure if I mentioned this before, but I think the cutting surfaces I use are part of why my Tojiro loses it's edge so quickly. We use plastic cutting boards, I have no options otherwise. We have two types, one is a slightly softer plastic, and the other is a very hard one. The soft ones become useless after a few washings, as they warp badly after being run through the pot washing machine. The thick, hard plastic do not do this, and thus are really the only option for working with. I hear a nasty *crack* every once in a while as I am mincing, even with a light touch, if I hit it a bit hard. I don't imagine the board is kind to it, despite my best efforts to go easy. In comparison, my coworkers slam their knives into these boards, and you just hear *slamcrack* *slamcrunch* *slamcrack* *slamclink*. It doesn't sound good! The fact the boards are also old and well used, filled with knife gouges, many with melted areas from hot pots, etc. I am sure also contributes it's share to premature wear.

A weekly touchup sounds about right for the Tojiro. I have gotten better with sharpening, so it doesn't take as long as it used to. Perhaps as a goal for next year, after improving my grip this year, I should try to sharpen the knife more often. It is a chore, and usually involves a fight with the roommate to get him to clean up the dirty dishes he left in the sink I sharpen over. I have only been sharpening every couple months (longer in between when work is slow...), but that isn't often enough for this knife. Weekly is far more often than I thought I would need to do, so I really have been going too long between sharpenings. I thought I could run it over the stone every few months, keeping it honed during that time, and it would hold a nice edge. Not my experience at all. It needs the stone often, though honing _does_ really do wonders to bring the edge back quickly, it still degrades faster than I expected.

I briefly considered a nice serrated/ bread knife when I first began knife shopping. But, after using the cheap Fibrox, knowing what a pain it is to sharpen serrated, and the PERFORMANCE the cheap Fibrox was getting over nice serrated knives that were a few years old, it seemed to make sense to just keep it cheap. I would end up wanting to pay someone to sharpen a serrated, and the cost of sharpening it would buy another Fibrox. I found no performance gains from more expensive knives over my Fibrox up to about the year and a half mark. As it got close to two years is when the performance noticeably declined, and gave me the indication of the lifespan being about 2 years. $20 every two years is not bad at all for a knife that impressed everyone who picked up and used such a heavily used and abused knife. I really love the handle, giving great grip even when my hands are loaded with fruit juice, oil, grease, etc. It washed up easily and beautifully too. The Fibrox material is also better than any of the other plastic handles in that it doesn't seem to hold schmutz in the pores like the Dexter, Sysco, etc. and other cheap knife plastic handles do. It also has better grip than a traditional slick wooden handle. I can't say much for ergonomics, as a pinch grip is not used on the bread knife, but I have always found it so comfortable I don't even notice it. It is not too wide, not too narrow, seems to fit my hand right for how I hold the bread knife. For $20, I don't think I would ever consider any other bread knife! It does the job, does it well, and is cheap enough to keep a fresh one in rotation to maintain the great performance for the price range. I really like the rounded end as well, it comes in handy very, very often. I was given a new Dexter serrated a year ago, and my year old Fibrox STILL cut better than the new knife, for reference.

I used the forums here extensively in my knife research, and it came up often in Google results. That is why I really like to keep all information and experiences updated, even if it is only yearly, as I imagine I cannot be the only one reading these forums from Google to get information. I hope my experiences help others as much as other experiences I read about on this forum helped me! One thing I cannot stand is when I Google a problem, find someone else with the same problem, and they never report back with solutions or complete troubleshooting! I will find forums with threads that are years old, that just died out before any answers, conclusions, or helpful information was posted.


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## aerophex (Jan 15, 2013)

Bump for Chad Ward's "An Edge in the Kitchen"  to anyone who hasn't read it.  Best $25 I ever spent in the kitchen.


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## tangela (Feb 1, 2010)

> I used the forums here extensively in my knife research, and it came up often in Google results. That is why I really like to keep all information and experiences updated, even if it is only yearly, as I imagine I cannot be the only one reading these forums from Google to get information. I hope my experiences help others as much as other experiences I read about on this forum helped me! One thing I cannot stand is when I Google a problem, find someone else with the same problem, and they never report back with solutions or complete troubleshooting! I will find forums with threads that are years old, that just died out before any answers, conclusions, or helpful information was posted.


In my experience this is spot on.

I first found ChefTalk when googling for information about knives and I've just finished reading this entire thread. I can't properly express how much I appreciate your detailed updates and everyone's excellent advice (special shoutout to Wagstaff, LennyD, and BDL in particular).

So thanks very much and kudos to you all  !


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## jonnyboy369 (Jun 27, 2014)

I use the Fibrox 10". I sharpen all our knives at work, lots of different kinds. The Victorinox is a pretty soft steel, it is fast to sharpen and gets crazy sharp. It needs honing all day though between tasks. It can get pretty annoying if your really busy. The trade to me is that heavier forged knives are way harder to sharpen, but hold the edge longer. I prefer the edge on the stamped Fibrox to Miyabi, Shun, Mac, and Mercer knives of my coworkers. It is easier to sharpen, and it is way less expensive. Ill keep my Fibrox till it falls apart. It broke down 30 lbs. of very tough butternut squash the other day, I was really impressed. I wish I had the rosewood version. I think ill pick one up and then I can keep the Fibrox at home.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Johnnyboy you probably recall my Vic Rosewood review.  After thinning, primarily at the tip, reshaping the handle and coating with epoxy, I like it enough that I'm not only using it but have no intentions of replacing it.  It's more than fine for carrots beets, large squash and swede.  With the thinned tip it does horizontal cuts through onion like nothing, but for the actual dicing I'd have to say something like a Konosuke would be preferable. ;-)~  I keep meaning to put pictures up of the finished product, eventually I will.

Rick


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