# Newbie to knives : interested in Japanese knives



## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

I've always liked and enjoyed cooking and have always wanted a set of good knives for myself but never got to it until now...

Was keen on going for Shun or Globals until i started reading more on this forum.

I've been reading quite a lot of very useful (overload) of information here but have basically narrowed down to:

1. Masamoto Gyuto 240mm

or

2. Kagayaki Gyuto 240mm

At this stage, i'm only going to buy a main knife first with a knife block and see how I go from there... I have a number of questions though:

How do the above 2 compare? Is the Masamoto worth the extra price spent on it?
How hard is it for me to learn to sharpen using Whetstones? I've never used it before. Is there a high chance of me destroying the knife?
How can someone be so accurate to hold the knife 15degrees when sharpening? or is this a rough figure?
Can someone explain or direct me to a link that explains the meaning of bevels, etc?
Would a knife block be better or a magnet on the wall? I've seen some magnetic strips that has a plastic covering to prevent knives from knocking onto it.
Any advice would be good...

I see that JCK and Korin are both very popular and reliable retailers so I'm probably going to go with one of them.

If it makes any difference at all, I'm in Sydney, Australia.

Thanks in advanced!


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## mikez (Jun 13, 2010)

Korin is having a 15% off sale right now, but if I were you I would post this question at the knife forums. These guys are the best and got me from going with my Shuns to some great japanese knives.. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/


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## mikez (Jun 13, 2010)

Korin is having a 15% off sale right now, but if I were you I would post this question at the knife forums. These guys are the best and got me from going with my Shuns to some great japanese knives.. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Kagayaki VG-10 and Masamoto VG are two very good choices. Kagayaki is JCK's house brand and only available through them.

Is the Masamoto worth the extra dough? Well, that sort of depends on what you're looking for.

Taken as a whole, the Masamoto is a better knife. That sort of expresses Masamotos generally. There's no one thing that really stands out about them, they just feel and function better than just about anything else. And, while they aren't cheap, they're so good they're still good values.

The Kagayaki VG-10 represents a lot of value. F&F is great for the price. The blade profile and edge geometry aren't as good as the Masamoto's, but the knife is made of a nice piece of VG-10 with all of the great edge taking and edge holding characteristics that implies.

Despite what Korin says and advertises, the Masamoto VG is NOT made with VG-10, nor is the line titled VG-10 in Masamoto's Japanese catalog -- it's just called VG. There's some question about whether it ever was, but it certainly is not anymore. By the way, that's what all that stuff about "cobalt" giving way to "hyper-molybdenum" on JCK's Masamoto page means.

The Masamoto VG alloy is probably (strong, educated guess) VG-5. VG-5's edge taking qualities aren't quite as good as VG-10's, but on the other hand it's a little more durable. Unless you're a very good sharpener and/or ride your knives right to the edge of the use/abuse envelope, you're unlikely to notice the difference.

The Kagayaki has a small and slender handle, while the Masamoto's is larger. The Masamoto is a more comfortable knife for almost any hand and any type of grip.

The Kagayaki is a very good knife at an entry level price. You're not going to get a decent "monosteel' VG-10 knife for much less, and the Kagayaki is one step better than decent.

The Masamoto VG is in an entirely different and higher class. As western handled, mass produced, stainless gyutos go you can't beat its performance at any price. There are other knives just as good that are maybe a little more or less expensive and slightly different in one way or another. But the Masamoto is a Masamoto. It sounds tautological, but it actually means quite a bit.

The one caveat with the Masamoto VG -- and I'm not sure if it still applies -- is that the company was having some difficulty with the F&F of western handle scales. When (and if) you order yours, make sure you communicate with the retailer and let him know you expect a correctly fitted handle. It's worth mentioning that Masamoto has changed the VG handle material to a POM they call "Duracon." I imagine that solved he problem.

You don't absolutely need to buy a set of waterstones and learn to freehand. An Edge Pro is much easier to learn and once you've got the right tapes and stones, will do as good a job.

And yes, sharpening freehand on bench stones does take a while to learn to do well. On the other hand, it's not that hard. It doesn't take a PhD or anything. What it does take is practice. About twenty hours to learn to sharpen and deburr on the medium-coarse stone. Another fifteen hours to jump up to the medium-fine and hold an angle well enough to use the coarse (for profile and repair); and another ten or fifteen hours or so before you can reliably use an ultra-fine polishing stone.

You can think of about half that time as getting to where you understand what you're doing, can do it fairly well and fairly consistently; and the other half as developing expertise and confidence. I've been freehanding for more than forty-five years and I'm still learning.

Compare that to about five hours to really get the EP down.

If knife skills or knife collecting are going to be a part of your life, go stones. If you just want to flatten the learning curve, get an EP. Unless that is you really NEED to keep your costs down. You can get a basic combi-stone (enough to get you going) for about $50, far cheaper than an EP which runs around $150 for a minimal setup.

I'm sure you have a lot more questions. Feel free to ask.

BDL


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

kohno,

I was in a similar position to you about 6 months ago. After a lot of frustration with the knives I had been using, I wanted find the perfect "go-to" chef knife. And the Japanese steels and profiles seemed to be where it was at. I got my hands on a few knives from cooks and friends around town. I was able to test or take home the Masamato 210mm VG, Masamato 240mm HC, Misono Sweden 270mm the 9 1/2" "Mighty MAC" and a 240mm Hittori HD.

I went on to own a few of these but of those four brands the Masamato really stood out. It had nothing to do with the sharpness or the handle although I have no problems with those qualities with any of the knives I looked at, it was the geometry. And, (JMO) I think that's the most important aspect of any knife. The profile is as good as I could expect and good enough that's it's actually motivated me to keep improving my technique so I can use it to it's full capability. I went with the carbon because I prefer the ease of sharpening. But that's neither here nor there. If I'm not mistaken, the geometry between the carbon and VG are very similar if not the same. They feel different but the geometry wasn't noticeably different to me.

As to your other questions:

1. For sharpening, I own an Edge Pro Apex. In terms of achieving precise angles and extremely sharp edges, it's *great*. After studying over the videos on the Edge Pro website and reading some of the advice on various forums I was able to get my knife push cut a tomato on my third sharpening. Since then I've been able to keep the edge with only minor touch ups. How's that for quick results?! Having the proper setup for it is important but it's not hard to use. _*That being said: *_there are things that freehand sharpening can do that the Edge Pro (or any jig for that matter) simply can't. Single bevel edges are a pain. Thankfully, I don't need them. Clam shell edges aren't possible. And varying the angle of inclination (if that's what you call it???) from the heel to the point of the blade is problematic and extremely time consuming. One thing that I've learned recently is that I prefer a sharper angle at the front of the blade and a shallower angle towards the back. If I were using bench stones that would be no problemo. So it could be that I'll slowly start to collect a full set of stones for free handing in the future and keep the Edge Pro for setting initial bevels. But I'm content to use the Edge Pro for now. It's a very good system. If all you want is a sharp knife and are concerned about the learning curve / muscle memory associated with free hand sharpening, then I would recommend the EP through Chefknivestogo. I got the Apex 5: not cheap but a good introduction to various stones and the best bang for the buck. The Chosera stones that come with it are great. The EP 320 stone is good too. I can't say the same for the 220 tho.

2. As far as bevels go, it's not complicated but probably too much to cover in one post. There are several books and a wealth of information online that cover the various types of edge bevels and their ideal application for any given knife and type of cutting. The only thing that I would point out is that you have to discover what works for *you* and the type of cooking you do. Just because someone says that so and so a knife works best with a 70/30 15* bevel doesn't mean that that's the best geometry for you. It might be a good starting point. But finding that right bevel is part of the process of getting to know your knife. Don't think you have to get it right the first time. You'll want to make adjustments as time goes by.

3. Knife blocks and knife racks. As someone with a background in industrial design, I have a major problem with the lack of good knife holders out there. Most of them are cheap and poorly designed. Some are expensive and poorly designed. Blocks are good but they take up precious counter space at home and they can be somewhat limiting with the slots provided. I don't know of any knife block that will hold the set of knives that I've assembled. The wall mounted magnetic racks with metal have a tendency to "snap" the blade to it's surface. I don't know that it causes any problems but I don't like it. The best I've seen is from these folks:

http://benchcrafted.com/ordering.htm

I don't have one but if I were to buy a knife rack, the above is what I would get: they look good and people I respect online have said good things about them. FWIW, I just use a knife roll. It's temporary solution but a cheap one that works and since I cook at other peoples home a lot, it's handy.

Lastly, be forewarned: Once you have the right knife you'll want to treat it well and keep it sharp. You'll quickly become curious about just how sharp it can get. Then you'll be curious about other knives and how sharp they can get. And then you'll want to know other ideas about sharpening and start experimenting with them. Before you know it, you're a knife nut. It's a vicious circle. I'm just sayin... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif

I still consider myself a newbie. I'm learning more about my knives every day but hopefully some of this is useful info. My vote would be for the Masamato. I own a few different knives and love them all. But the Masamotos are my favorite. And if you don't like it you can always return it for a small restocking fee. But I'm betting you won't. Good luck!

+D.


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Wow!! I'm always amazed at how helpful forums can be and thanks for putting up with newbies like me. Really appreciate it.

Mike: Thanks! I'll definitely check those places out.

bdl: Exactly the comparison I needed. Thanks. I've got more questions about sharpening which I'll go into detail below...

SockpuppetDoug: Thanks.. Unfortunately, I do know anyone else who's into knives so I cant try them out... Guess I've got to resolve to advice on forums for mine...

Ok..

*Kagayaki vs Masamoto*

Sounds like I wont go wrong with either of these 2. Down to how much I'm willing to spend I presume?
*Sharpening*

I'd really like to learn how to sharpen properly (using a block) but at the same time worried about screwing up my precious new knife... Is it that easy to screw up?
First things first... Do I really need to sharpen the knife when I get it new? Was thinking maybe I could get the knife and stones AND practice using the block using my other knives (el cheapo ones in my drawers!) for the time being? And fingers crossed, i'll be able to be OK when it comes to sharpening my new knives?
The Edge Pro costs more than the stones but very little learning curve but not sure whether I'm being too ambitious but I'd really like to get things right right from the start?
If I go for the stones, can someone point me to a link or something that shows the 'right' way of using them? And which ones I would need / get to start off with?
That's all for now.. still slowly digesting the overload of information above!


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Just thought of something I could do but open for your thoughts...

How about I consider getting some stones first (would still need recommendations)... and give it a go on my current knives...?

Another question is can ALL knives be sharpened using stones?

Also, is anyone here from Australia? Asking just in case there are cheaper/easier alternatives on getting knives/equipment from here locally.


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

I think if your gut wants you to go with water stones then go for it.  You might make mistakes but there's very little you can do to destroy your knife short of outright abuse (like repeatedly putting it in the dishwasher).  And yes, starting off with some beater knives is what I plan on doing as well.  I was just discussing this the other day with a professor at the culinary institute in Portland.  His advice was to get a hold of some cheap knives and learn on them first and keep sharpening with them until it becomes second nature.

One thing to note that you may or may not already know:  most Japanese knives aren't shipped super sharp like Shuns, Globals or western knives.  Some are barely sharp at all and some aren't even sharpened.  So it's very likely that you'll need to refine the edge on your knife when you get it.  Having some prior experience with stones or a jig like the Edge Pro will save you some frustration.  So getting the stones first probably makes more sense.  

I'm not the right person to give advice on stones or matching steel with oil or whetstone but one more thing that might apply:  I've talked with all the knife sharpeners in my area.  There's 6 of them.  They all do it a little differently - there is no standard.  Five of them don't seem to know what they're doing.  One of them is superb.  Don't be tempted to take your new knife in for an initial sharpening unless you know for a fact that the person doing the work is going to respect the quality of the knife you just purchased.  Maybe it's different in Australia.  I certainly hope so.  But the "professional" knife sharpening services where I live leave a lot to be desired.  And I don't say with any kind of moral superiority.  I'm no expert and I have a lot to learn.  And that's not a knock on people who sharpen for a living either - just a caveat.  If you do feel the need for someone to sharpen it first, make sure to check the quality of their work.

+D.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> *Kagayaki vs Masamoto*
> 
> Sounds like I wont go wrong with either of these 2. Down to how much I'm willing to spend I presume?


Yes and no. If the price difference is significant the Kagayaki is a great first step into Japanese made chef's knives. If the difference is no big deal, date Kagayaki but marry Masamoto.


> I'd really like to learn how to sharpen properly (using a block) but at the same time worried about screwing up my precious new knife... Is it that easy to screw up?


You probably won't do much to actually screw it up if you approach learning rationally. What you will do is make yourself nuts as your early efforts go largely unrewarded.

The underlying question of learning to sharpen on beaters -- good idea, but not a necessity. 


> First things first... Do I really need to sharpen the knife when I get it new? Was thinking maybe I could get the knife and stones AND practice using the block using my other knives (el cheapo ones in my drawers!) for the time being? And fingers crossed, i'll be able to be OK when it comes to sharpening my new knives?


I've heard the Kagayaki comes out of the box with a better edge than the Masamoto. I've heard it's actually pretty good.

A lot of Japanese makers ship their knives with the idea that the retailer will sharpen at the time of sale or the buyer will want to "open" his own knive -- Masamoto is one of those. OOTB the Masamoto will likely be barely adequate.

Whether or not it's the ideal edge for the knife, a Masamoto will work quite well with very simple edge geomtry. If you don't feel competent to do it yourself, any competent, hand sharpener can. We can talk about how to find one later, if you like.

_*Caveat:*_ "Any competent hand sharpener," does not mean any knife sharpening service. Doug was quite right about those. You don't want to open or maintain either of these knives on a wheel. You want a more acute angle than most services sharpen (be warned, a lot of services lie about their angles). You want the knife finished to a far higher degree of polish than most services offer. So you'll have to look around. Skilled woodworkers are often great sharpners.

You could do a more than adequate job of creating proper bevels on one of the Chef's Choice electric sharpeners designed for Asian knives. They'll give you a flat 15* bevel on each side, no problem. They're also adequate, but just... for routine sharpening and maintenance. I'm not sure about Chef's Choice prices or availability in Oz.

Practicing on your old knives is a great idea in terms of you learning to find the correct angle and holding it. Whether or not it's going to do a lot for the knives is another question. 


> The Edge Pro costs more than the stones but very little learning curve but not sure whether I'm being too ambitious but I'd really like to get things right right from the start?


I've been freehanding for more than forty-five years, and don't use the Edge Pro myself. However, the EP is good enough that I wonder if it's really worth learning to freehand sharpen anymore for anyone other than an enthusiast, collector, or someone who uses knives with special needs. When it comes to sharpening ordinary kitchen knives for ordinary kitchen purposes the EP will do a better job than all but the very best sharpeners.

I'm not saying they're perfect -- just that they do a very good job while mostly avoiding the learning curve.

Before we let fear of sharpening grow too large, grab some perspective. It's only rubbing a piece of metal against a rock, people have been doing it for thousands of years, and for most of those years it was the only way to sharpen. It's not difficult to become competent -- mostly a matter of practice. For that matter, it's not that difficult to become very good -- just more practice. The better you get, the more money (quite a bit, actually) you'll invest in good stones.

I can't tell you which method would be better for you. My guess is EP if you can afford one. 


> If I go for the stones, can someone point me to a link or something that shows the 'right' way of using them? And which ones I would need / get to start off with?


Yes. Start with this one, and if you're still interested I'll link you to a lot more -- some videos too. Let me reiterate what Doug implied when he talked about professional knife sharpeners. There are a lot of right ways to sharpen. As it happens, my methods are similar to the guy who wrote the piece, but it's not a big deal. I don't want to delve too deeply into all the possibilities because my feeling is that you only want to get a feel for what's involved before melting your credit card on an EP, and it can be overwhelming for a noob.

What you should come away with is the sense that you certainly can do it, and learn to do an excellent job at that -- without too much difficulty.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## yogidog98 (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm also a knife knoob. I have a 10yr-old entry-level Chicago Cutlery block set with wood handles that has been severely abused by repeated dishwasher use.  I know better now, and I'd like to upgrade to some quality cutlery, starting with a good Chef's knife.

This discussion has just about convinced me to buy a Masamato VG Gyutou.  I want a really-nice all-purpose Chef's knife to start, so I'm a little worried to the thinner blade may not be the best choice for an all-purpose knife.  Of course I can keep my cheap Chicago Cutlery knife around for more abusive tasks.  I understand that the HC knife has some advantages, but while I know enough now to not stick a knife in a dishwasher, I don't know if I'll be diligent enough to maintain an HC blade. I may also consider a K-Sabatier at lower price-point, though I don't think I'd like the full-guard.

My main question is about the appropriate length for the Masamoto VG.  I've been looking for a 10" blade.  The 240mm converts to 9.4 in, and a 270mm converts to 10.6in.  Is it better to err on the short side (240) or the long side (270)?  I'm definitely no expert with a knife, but I don't want to stay a beginner for long and I've read several posts suggesting 10" is a good general length.

Also, what are the main trade-offs between the Western and Japanese-style handles?

Thanks.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

*Japanese ("wa") vs. Western ("yo") handles: *

If you don't use a pinch grip of any sort, western handles are a little more comfortable with a "baseball" grip. Lousy way to hold a knife, though.

Japanese handles are narrower and longer.

Some Japanese handles are "eccentric," for instance "D" shaped and are suitable only for one hand or the other. Octagonal handles are ambidextrous. Round handles are too, but they tend to be a little slippery.

Wa-blades tend to be shipped narrower at the heel than yo-blades. This has more to do with the economics of forging and grinding a full-tang blade vs a rat-tail tang, than with the capabilities of the knife. Let's also bear in mind that wide heels can easily be thinned.

Wa-knives aren't balanced by full tangs, and consequently are front-heavy compared to yo-styles. Wa handled knives are usually quite a bit lighter.

As a rule, the higher your skill level the more adaptable you are to handle shape and size, the less concerned you are about balance. Similarly, the sharper you keep your knives the more likely you are to prefer a light to a heavy knife.

Be honest about your skill levels. You want make yourself a better cook by buying a knife that feels awkward.

_*Masmaoto VG vs ST vs HC vs CT vs Some Other Knives:*_

Other than handle materials (which doesn't signify much in terms of performance), the onlly things distinguishing the VG from the HC and the CT are the alloys. If you want a stainless, western-handled Masamoto, VG is a better knife at a lower price than ST

I'm not sure what alloy Masamoto uses for the ST, presumably some over-hardened flavor of 440C. Whatever it is, it doesn't get as sharp, stay sharp as long, and chips more easily than the VG-5 (which I think is) used for the VG.

The CT and HC are not stainless knives. People who want carbon usually don't want stainless and _vice versa_. The HC and CT are made from substantially similar alloys, but the HC's is "purer." Consequently, it's slightly more corrosion resistant and has slightly better edge characteristics.

There are other stainless knives which perform as well as the VG. Although I personally prefer the VG, I most often recommend the MAC Pro because it's stiffer, has a better handle and feels sturdier. People coming from German knives sometimes feel that the VG is a little too whippy and fragile.

In my opinion the Masamoto HC and Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (shiroko) western are the two or three best, western-handled, mass-produced, carbon steel knives available at any price. That's partly performance and partly taste.

However, the Misono Sweden and Kikuichi Elite are very nearly as good.

So, in their own way are a few of the carbon Sabatiers. The Sabs are more durable, but the edges don't last as long. While they're capable of a very high level of sharpness, it's not quite as high as the Japanese made knives. The Sabs need frequent steeling; but steeling is something quick and easy to do and can keep the knives off the stones for quite awhile.

My list for top stainless (or near stainless) in a similar price range to the VC includes the Ichimonji TKC (now that it's easily available through CK2Go), the Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, as well as the MAC Pro. The Hattori FH and Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (western) cost a bit more, but each brings something a bit extra to the game in terms of fit and finish. The Tadatsuna has particularly good edge geometry as well.

No need to discuss wa-gyuto unless you've got an actual interest.

_*240mm vs 270mm: *_

For a number of reasons 210 vs 240 and 270 vs 300 feels hugely more significant than 240 vs 270 -- assuming the manufacturer actually gives accurate lengths, a thing not always true.

Basically, if you don't have a big board and good knife skills you'll find the 240 a lot easier to manage than the 270. If you do have good skills and a sufficient work area, a 270 will be more productive.

Again, be honest in your self assessment.

_*Bottom Line:*_

Coming from Chicago Cutlery, all of these knives will look unbelievably wonderful. The better, truer perspective is to see them as far more similar than making pretending their differences are anything but slight. They're all well made using top alloys. They all sharpen up very sharp, and all will reward good knife skills.

I'm not telling you a Masamoto VG isn't your best choice. It certainly is a very good knife indeed. However, there are a lot of other choices, many just as good. The more you talk about how you use a knife, and what you want expect from yours, the better I can tailor my recommendations to your needs and the actual differences between knives

Before choosing a knife, please consider how you're going to sharpen and maintain. All knives get dull eventually. All dull knives, no matter how good otherwise or how expensive to begin with, are equal. Don't waste your money on something that will end up too dull to cut.

BDL


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## yogidog98 (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks, BDL, for your thorough reply. I always find your posts educational and insightful.

To be honest, I don't really know how I'll use the knife other than to say "for general Chef's knife stuff." I've just recently started to have time to do more home cooking, so my original goal was to just upgrade my Chicago Cutlery set for a higher quality set. I was originally leaning toward a core set of Wusthof Classic, but after reading several of your other posts mentioning better quality knives at lower prices, I realized Wusthof/Henkels/Shun may be overrated and the better option would be a knife brand not typically found at my local retail or department stores.

I suppose I'll mostly use the Chef's knife for slicing, dicing, and mincing fruits, vegetables and nuts (including citrus, tomatoes and onions), slicing and cubing meats, and occasionally smashing a garlic clove (maybe a cleaver for that?). Other common knife tasks I have are peeling and coring apples, carving thick slices of pork or beef, splitting chickens, and opening bottles (just kidding), but I'm guessing other knives would be better suited for those tasks.

Of my current set, I rarely use the 8" Chef's knife, mostly because it seems too short for a rocking motion and has been too dull. Now that I've read several of your other posts and the knife maintenance and sharpening guide I know how to remedy that problem; I hadn't even steeled any of my knives more than twice in the last 10 years I've owned them. Now that I'm educated, I plan to invest in some sharpening equipment and stay diligent keeping my cutlery sharp. Sad to say that I currently mostly use a 5" non-serrated steak knife for slicing, paring, chopping, boning, slicing, and general use, and an 8" carver/slicer for cutting thick meats. Needless to say, I have a long way to go to recognize the right knife for the job, but I attribute some of that to not having sharp knives available. That's my own fault for knife maintenance ignorance.

As I've learned more about proper kitchen knife use, it's evident that the Chef's knife is the most important piece of cutlery, so I thought I'd start with that. Since you are the most knowledgeable cooking knife expert I've found on the Internet, I've spent the last couple of days just reading your other posts trying to figure out what you'd recommend if I asked you directly. I think I want a stainless, 10", Japanese-made, French-profile (you seem to favor), western-handle Chef's knife without a full bolster (for easier sharpening). I also have larger-than-average hands. I'm not sure I understand the differences between the French and German-profiles or which would be best for me, but I think you mentioned you prefer the French profile in another post.

I wasn't originally planning to spend as much as a Masamoto, but I'm looking for the best I can afford, and you made a pretty strong statement favoring them:


> The Masamoto VG is in an entirely different and higher class. As western handled, mass produced, stainless gyutos go you can't beat its performance at any price. There are other knives just as good that are maybe a little more or less expensive and slightly different in one way or another. But the Masamoto is a Masamoto. It sounds tautological, but it actually means quite a bit.


As for length, I don't think cutting board space is a problem--I'll upgrade to a bigger board if it is--but I'm sure it's obvious I have novice knife skills. I can slice a carrot, cucumber or onion with proper technique (as far as I can tell), but I certainly don't have the experience or confidence to do it quickly. I'm worse with dicing and mincing.

As you know from one of my other posts, I already impulse-bought a Calphalon LX 3" parer and 5" utility knife. After I get a good Chef's knife, I'll probably buy the MAC Superior 10.5" bread knife you recommended in another post and then look for a good carver to finish off a core-set.

For sharpening equipment, I'll probably start with a Spyderco SharpMaker and a ceramic "steel". I plan to eventually invest in 2-3 waterstones. I think the Edge Pro would get me better results, but it is so expensive that I think I'd rather invest the time to learn how to use waterstones. Are there any specific brands of waterstones I should look for or stay away from?


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks bdl.

I'm looking at a 240mm Gyuto.

Masamoto 240mm VG Series - $183

Kayagaki 240mm VG10 - $141

If only they're readily available here in Oz for me to have a feel of both in my hands... FYI, over the years, I've grown accustomed to the size and weight of a chinese cleaver... would this make a difference in whether i go for Masamoto or Kayagaki?

If you're saying that the Masamoto OOTB is less than adequate, i reckon it'll be a challenge for me to find a 'good' knife sharpener here... as in someone who can do it professionally for me.

In terms of sharpening the knives myself, i'm trying to get away from electric sharpeners - it's either I go for EP (i presume the Edge Pro 3 is sufficient?) or I use stones (can you recommend a couple of stones for me to start off with?)

Also, why wouldnt my other knives benefit from sharpening using stones? Which brings me back to a question i previously asked - can ALL knives be sharpened using stones? Do all knives need to be honed?

Not sure whether i'm confusing you more but i'm just trying to digest as much information as possible before i make my purchase.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_*Some Sharpening Stuff:*_

Spyderco Sharpmaker and a ceramic steel are redundant. The fine stick makes a pretty good steel -- if too short and too much of a PITA to set up for my taste. People LOVE the Sharpmaker, but it's really not a substitute for stones.

Regular flat bench stones will work for nearly all knives. For the sake of completness the limitation on all is that some serrated knives are or highly curved knives are better sharpned on slip stones (or curved files). Not much of an exclusion, really.

Not all knives sharpen best on a given set of stones, or even -- if you're dividing into types -- on waterstones. I'm coming to find that my oilstone set is more efficient on tough steels which aren't very strong (i.e., Euro stainless), than my waterstones which seem to be more efficient on everything else. Does this mean that you NEED two complete sets of stones? No. You can get by with a waterstones and add oilstones later.

Just one of those nuances. I've been sharpening for a long time, more than forty five years (and have been pretty good at it for more than thirty-five), and I'm still learning stuff. Moral of the story: I'm not trying to steer you away from stones and towards an EP. On the contrary. I just want you to be aware of what's involved.

Knives like the Kagayaki and Masamoto require a good bevel, a sharp edge, and a fair bit of polish to operate at its best. That means a good set of waterstones. The good news is that you don't need them all at once. There are two ways to start. One is to buy a medium-coarse/medium-fine combination stone. The other is to buy individual stones at those levels.

Once you've learned to use the medium-coarse stone to consistently do your basic sharpening, you can move up to the medium-coarse stone. If your angle holding isn't solid and you haven't developed a sense of touch and pressure, you'll mess up your bevels and edge -- dulling instead of refining a fine edge, smoothing the bevels, and preparing the knife for polishing.

The same "dull instead of sharpen" is true if you move on to a polishing stone if you haven't developed the technique to use it.

If you start messing with coarse stones before you're ready, you can mess up your edge badly enough to need a skilled sharpener to correct it. That's the whole point to coarse stones -- they're _FAST_. But, thank God, you don't have to know THAT much. Armed with a basic understanding of what you're trying to do; enough practice on the medium-coarse that you can kinda-sorta hold an angle; and the magic marker trick, you'll be OK.

So, it takes about four times the amount of practice just to get the point to get solid enough on the medium-coarse to move on to the medium-fine with some assurance that you'll actually make the medium-fine work as it does to master the whole Edge Pro system.

Is it worth it?

To me, yes. To you? I can't say. If you like working with your hands, developing feel, all that sort of thing; or, if you see yourself as becoming a knife collector or if your a tradition bound luddite; or a whole lot of other things, then stones or for you. If you simply want the best practicable edge and get on with it, I'd go with an EP.

You're not going to get me to make up your mind for you on this. I don't know if it will make it easier or harder -- but it should make it more comfortable -- for you to know that these are two good choices and you can't go wrong either way.

Kit 3. Wonderful stuff. Would work great for all your knives.

Let me add that the EP Apex is not a perfect tool. Although very well made, might feel a little rickety and might slide around a little if you don't put it on a good surface. The Pro is better in those respects, but it's nowhere near worth it's price for what you want to accomplish. If you were sharpening twenty knives a month, yes. But five knives every 10 weeks? No.

I like Naniwa 10mm stones for beginners because they're very responsive (as stones go), fast, inexpensive, maintain easily, pre-mounted on bases that add more responsiveness, and thin enough so they're not a life time commitment. I don't know whether they're available in Oz or not. Something makes me thing they aren't.

What you will need if you do go stones is a medium-coarse (which is around 1000# JIS), and a medium-fine (3000# to 6000#). There are plenthy of fine choices, but I don't know what's available to you. I prefer Naniwa over Shapton and just about everything else. Bester 1.2K and Arashiyama (aka Takenoko) are an outstanding pair which are durable and good enough to last a lifetime.

Suehiro makes a good, reasonably priced combination stone. Everyone and their aunt learned on the King 1K/6K or Norton 1K/4K. Combi stones are an economical starting point, but you'll outgrown them.

Whatever you choose, be aware that you'll also have to make some provision for flattening. It doesn't have to be an expensive choice, but it will have to be a choice. FWIW, most of my peers use a DMT XXC (expensive) diamond plate but I use (cheap) drywall screen.

*Do all knives need to be honed?*

Unfortunately "hone" is one of those words that can mean a lot of different things.

If by "honed" you mean "trued on a rod honed" aka "steeled," the answer is: Almost all knives can be dinged out of true and require truing of some sort; but not all knives should be trued on a rod hone.

Knives made from very strong, very hard steel chip too easily to make it worth the risk of steeling. You wouldn't steel a metallurgical powder hardend to above 63RCH ,for instance. Knives with highly asymmetric edges -- chisel edges for instance -- don't respond well either.

For those knives, the most efficient way to true either is to "touch up" on one or two stones. And yes, ordinary sharpening _does_ true the edge.

High end, traditional Japanese knives tend to be both asymmetric and extremely hard. And, the Japanese have pioneered the use of very hard alloys and extreme asymmetry in western profiles as well. But not all -- or even most -- western profile, Japanese knives are made that way.

Neither the Masamoto nor the Kakayagi fall into either of the unsuitable categories as shipped. You can, if you like, sharpen either to that level of asymmetry in a search for absolute sharpness. I don't recommend it though, because the edge collapses too easily.

_*Did Your Cleaver Leave You Forever Sullied?*_

Your cleaver use won't make any difference in how you feel about Kagayaki vs Masamoto. Just as the moonrise restores Aphrodite's virginity every night, switching from a cleaver to a pro quality gyuto should do the same for you.

_*THE Dreaded Sports Cars Analogy:*_

The Masamoto is a better all-round knife. It's better in ways that will make a very small difference in terms of your knife prep, and won't make much of a difference at all in your general cooking. Sort of like the difference in choosing between Porsche and a Mazda roadsters to drive to work. Porsches are nicer, Mazdas cost less.

_*Masmaoto OOTB Edge:*_

One never knows exactly which edge is going to come out of a Masamoto box. It seems to depend on who's doing what for Masamoto, things which are by no means constant; and what Masamoto and the e-tailer have going on between them.

Most likely you'll get a Christmas Morning edge -- sharp enough to fool around with for a week or so. You'll want nice, wide, flat bevels and a fine, polished edge to not only get a sense of the knife -- but to have an edge that will stand up to a couple of months of ordinary home kitchen use without dulling too much or too fast.

_*E-Tailers and Sharpening and E-Tailers and Korin's Weirdness:*_

Both JCK and Korin will arrange to have the knife sharpened for you before shipping -- for a price. Either will do a good job. Getting the edge you want as opposed to the edge Korin thinks you should have can be a bit of a chore. You have to be very specific with Koki (at JCK) about what level of quality you expect from sharpening.

I'm not sure about shipping to Oz, but I quite like dealing with Chefs Knives To Go (aka CK2Go). I'm not sure if Mark will arrange for an initial sharpening or not.

Purely as a side note, Korin is reliable, honest and very good to deal with, but they have some eccentric opinions. They can also be startlingly misinformative. You're only likely to run across two issues with them. If you ask them to open the Masamoto for you, they'll likely recommend a higher degree of asymmetry than you want. IIRC, Masamotos ship at 50/50, and Korin likes to sharpen at 70/30. In fact, Anywhere from 50/50 to 2:1 (66/33) is OK, with 60/40 an excellent compromise.

Also, if you ask, they'll tell you not to use a "steel" on any Japanese knife. That's crap.

_*Masamoto Handles -- Known Issue:*_

For awhile western-handled Masamotos shipping from several sources have had some serious issues with sizing, smoothing, gaps, climate shrinkage, and just plain bad F&F. Why? It's probably one of those weird OEM/keiratsu things that's impossible to deal with because it's... well... Japan.

_Viel erfolg_ explaining that in Solingen. Not to mention why you won't let it put you off.

If you order a Masamoto, be very specific with your e-tailer (especially if it's JCK or Korin) and insist that you want handle scales which fit properly. I think Masamoto's resolved the issue at the production level, but why take a chance? They'll look through their stock to choose the best knife for you if you ask, so ask.

Hope this helps,

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

At that price difference, go Masamoto. As BDL has said, the Masamoto is simply a superior knife. I'm amazed by the price you're getting for the Masamoto, however -- that is VERY far under the Japanese list price. Assuming it's not an error (yours or the seller's), snap it up. If you don't like it, you can sell it for more than you paid.

Length: Masamotos run long, typically by 5%-10%. I don't know why.

Usage vs Chinese cleaver: yes, it's going to be a change. A BIG change. If you make an effort to learn -- proper grip and stance, cutting a little slowly at first, aiming for push-cutting whenever possible, etc. -- you will quickly pick it up and, in my experience, never look back. I used a Dexter Russell Chinese cleaver for years, loved it, bought a Masamoto 270 wa-gyuto in Japan, now cannot understand what I saw in the cleaver. But save the cleaver: if you keep a slightly fat edge on it, it will be spectacular for occasional brutality (splitting a lobster, for example, or shearing through chicken legbones).

The EdgePro will do a lovely job. As someone already said, it does have problems, notably when it comes to single-beveled knives, but this isn't a single-beveled knife so that's moot. Hand-sharpening is fun and not difficult, and a Masamoto is truly a pleasure to sharpen: it's remarkable how little effort is required to put a disturbing edge on these things, and once it's there it'll stay there surprisingly long. But you will quickly get used to a screaming edge, and find yourself touching up your edges more often than is really necessary. Either way will suit. The main objection I have to an EdgePro is that it's a relatively large object that has to be set up, and that makes sharpening a project in a way I find irritating. Many people do not feel this way -- it's simply a question of what's convenient and appropriate to you. I like taking out a brick (basically what a standard stone is), dropping it in water for a little while, putting it on a damp cloth, and sharpening on it. When I'm done, I put it aside to dry and that's it. For me, that makes touching up one knife a quick thing, not a big deal. If I were using an EdgePro, I think I'd probably end up doing all my knives in one big session. Just some thoughts. Either way, if you use the equipment effectively, you will get very good edges. And don't be scared about freehanding: take it easy, go slow, and you'll get good edges quite quickly. It's very satisfying.

Full disclosure: I bought a carbon Masamoto, not a VG, but I have heard reliable reports that the VG is also delightful to sharpen. I use an eclectic set of waterstones based around Chocera 400, 800, and 2000, with a synthetic Arashiyama 6000, SuperStone 10,000, and small natural finishing stone rated somewhere in the vicinity of 15,000. For my Masamoto, which I use as an all-purpose knife, stopping at 2000 is beautiful, but I can never resist going up to ludicrous levels of polish, which the knife adores.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

A brief addendum based on stuff BDL just posted:

In my considered opinion, asymmetrical sharpening, as a good thing, depends very heavily on a couple of factors, not all of them obvious.

First, you need a knife with really excellent steel. Not an issue here, with either knife.

Second, you need to be a semi-passable freehand sharpener or a careful, patient user of an EdgePro or similar high-quality jig system.

Third, you need a good high-grit stone (I agree with BDL -- about 3k minimum) that dishes as slowly as possible, or its equivalent in EdgePro terms.

Fourth, you need to be willing, until you master the system reasonably well, to touch up your edges pretty often, like every couple weeks or so.

Why?

Asymmetrical sharpening is absolutely dependent on the steel --- if you do this to a soft Euro-style steel, it's going to fold on you badly. Doing it freehand is quite easy; doing it with an EdgePro or the like means switching angles back and forth very consistently and carefully. To get edges like this to be really excellent, you've got to bring them to a pretty high polish, in my experience, and that means regular touch-ups on a high-grit stone -- and if it dishes badly, you're going to do a lot of flattening, which is a pain and ultimately rather expensive.

If you have a reasonably clear sense of how to use a good sharpening "steel" (hone), and you keep your edge close to symmetrical, and the steel in the knife is not ludicrously hard (as these are not), a 50/50 edge is simply easier to maintain.

Myself, I like extreme asymmetry, and keep pushing my Masamoto on this. To do it, I sharpen my knife regularly -- sometimes two or three times a week -- only on my hard natural stone, grit ~15k. That's ridiculously high polish, and I do just a tiny bit of grinding. I go very low angle on the face, maybe 10 strokes, and then just 3 or 4 strokes on the back, edge-trailing only, very lightly. Repeat, with 5 strokes front and 2 back, then 3 and 1. That's it. Since the stone doesn't soak, the whole procedure takes about three or four minutes.

But if this sounds like lunacy or a pain or whatever, insist on a 50/50 symmetrical grind, and keep it that way by whatever means, and also touch up regularly and carefully on an excellent hone. You will not regret it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey fellas,

Chris's Masamoto is Hitachi's wonderful YSS "shiroko" alloy, a very strong and tough steel hardened to around 63RCH (Rockwell "C" Hardness). Masamoto is VG-5 at a tad under 60RCH, and Kagayaki is VG-10 at right around 60RCH. They are different animals.

Neither the Masamoto VG nor the Kagayaki will be anywhere near as durable as Chris's KS at extreme asymmetry (70/30 and more). If you try it with one of those, your edges will collapse. Maybe not as though they were made out of paper but darn quickly. Remember, too much asymmetry means no steeling so you'll be pulling out the stones every week at least -- if you're lucky. Although it's an interesting experiment for a hobbyist and/or seeker of wisdom and truth, that much maintenance is too much for most home cooks.

It wouldn't be that much of an issue with a knife that doesn't take the hard knocks of a gyuto. I don't see it being a problem with a yanagi for instance, or even a suji. I do know a couple of pros using equivalent stainless gyutos sharpened to a chisel or near chisel in pro kitchens, but they both sharpen every day or every other day at least.

A final polishing phenmenology (which Kohno should probably ignore): Chris, assuming you sharpen more or less the way I do, you're not going to get the edge much finer by going to a higher grit than you'll get on a good 3K. (As it happens, we both use the Chosera -- which is NOT a good choice for Kohno.)

Just to be clear, by "finer," I mean thinner at the intersection of the bevels, the width of which the quantifiable measure of true sharpness.

Medium-fine stones (2.5K - 6K, about) do leave a little bit of scratch on the bevel face, and a tiny bit of micro-serration as well. Ultra-fine polishing stones (>6K, approximately) polish out the bevel face and knock the teeth off resulting in less friction. A polished edge isn't sharper than a properly sharpened edge, but _acts_ sharper in that it glides better.

Some steels take more polish than others, similarly some hold a high polish better than others. All of the knives we're talking about will easily take and profitably hold the equivalent of a Naniwa SS 10K polish.

I'm not sure if I'm adding to anyone's knowledge storehouse or just blathering. Let's hope for the former.

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh -- I didn't realize that the KS series steel is so different in hardness from the VG. Sorry! OK, yes -- DO NOT go with strong asymmetry, or it will end in tears (of frustration, if nothing else).

As to the grit level, polish, whatever thing -- mild disagreement with you, BDL, but mostly because I didn't probably give enough information. It's irrelevant to this discussion -- sorry I brought it up.


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## yogidog98 (Jul 27, 2010)

BDL, I'm glad you mentioned the details about e-tailers and sharpening. The only e-tailer reference to edge symmetry I found for Masamoto VG was at JCK link, which said the knives ship with 70/30 asymmetry. I had assumed that was how they were manufactured and what Masamoto recommended. It sounds like you recommend a 60/40 or a 50/50 (factory?) edge. If I go with the Masamoto, I'll have to check with my e-tailer to see if they just leave the factory edge or if they've already modified it.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

yogidog98,

I can say with some certainty that Masamoto's ship, from the main company in Tokyo (want the street address?), with no bevel at all. They're not sharpened. They're very thin, very plain, very straightforward, and as a result they're very sharp by the standards most Western home cooks are used to. But they're not ground.

In my opinion, however, the way the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto (the thing I actually have) is set up, it's somehow leaning a little to the left. I don't know how to explain this, because I'm not quite sure what I mean. I just know that when I took my totally unsharpened knife and played with it, it seemed like it had just a hint of left-ness, as though it were a distant cousin of a right-handed single-beveled knife. I did not see any of this in angles, so it may be total illusion, but I assure you I had no previous expectations on the issue and I picked this up strongly. Maybe someone else has seen it?

That said, Masamoto swears --- guarantees, actually --- that their unground double-bevel knives can be ground lefty just as effectively as righty, and I would be deeply, deeply surprised if they were not being dead honest about this.

Result: if anyone tells you that Masamoto's ship from the factory ground asymmetrically, they're full of it. The knives ship unground, and perhaps with a faint lean. (On which I wonder whether a lefty would have perceived the thing to have leaned in the other direction, but that's another question....)


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## yogidog98 (Jul 27, 2010)

BDL, you should think about putting a Knife Buying FAQ together you don't have to keep repeating your wisdom in multiple posts. I do try to read your other threads so you don't have to repeat yourself to me, but I have a hard time remembering which thread I read X or Y in so I can go back and remember what was said.

Thank you also ChrisLehrer.

Right now I'm more confused than ever. Unfortunately, I have the type of shopping personality that has trouble choosing between several excellent options. I can't help myself but to believe that there is one optimal choice, and I often struggle in cases like this where all the choices are so similarly superb. It must be some kind of OCD, or maybe it comes with my profession as an engineer. I know I'll probably be perfectly happy with any of these. Similar to what you said before, they'll all be like driving a Ferrari compared by my current Chevy. I was really trying to make a decision during Korin's knife sale since they have a really good price on the Masamoto VG right now, but I don't know if I'll be able to do that. I apologize if this post sounds more like a trouble-making-a-decision rant than a post seeking real advice.

I did try out a couple of knives at a William Sonoma last night, but unfortunately they didn't carry any of the brands you've recommended except Kikuichi, which I think had a carbon steel blade (the sales staff wasn't any help at all about the types of steel in their knives). The experience did open a whole series of follow-up questions, all of which I'm sure have been answered in other forum posts.

*Getting more hands-on experience*

One thing that I realized while trying out the knives at WS is how little experience I have with a Chef's knife. Holding them in my hand, I felt the weight, the handle comfort, and blade flexibility, but I was at a loss when it came to simulating a cutting motion and telling whether or not the knife had a good profile. It was very similar to when I was shopping for a guitar before I learned how to play; all I could really do was listen to the salesman play and let them tell me how it felt and whether or not it had a good sound. Unfortunately, the salesman at WS didn't know how to play either, so you guys are my "guitar salesmen".

I don't think I'll be able to find a MAC or Masamoto in a local shop, and I don't have any chef friends that would have one. I know feeling the knife is probably not all that important, but what are your thoughts on trying to talk to a chef in a local restaurant with these knives?

*Knives I tried*

I apologize for not remember the specific models I tried out, but I held a Global, Kikuichi, Masahiro, Shun, and several others (incl. Michel Blas) that were too expensive and I have no business considering. I'm really interested the feel of these compare to the Masamoto and the MAC. The Masahiro 8" (I think it was the Masahiro and not the Kikuachi), was extremely light weight and the blade seemed pretty flexible; I really liked it. I imagined that may be close to how BDL describes the Masamoto VG blade. The clerk said it was single-bevel, but it looked more like 90/10, but close to single-bevel. The 9 or 10" in the same line was noticeably heavier and not as flexible, but still pretty thin and light. The Global looked and felt cool, but a little awkward. I thought I preferred the looks of a Damascus blade, but several of the ones on display were just too much; now I'm sure I can do without.

How to the Masamoto VG and MAC compare feel-wise to these others?

When BDL mentions the Masamoto VG is thinner/more agile than western knives, is there any way to put that in perspective for a beginner like me? Maybe, how much does the Masamoto VG blade tip deflect from center with mild pressure from the handle?

I'm really struggling with coming to terms with BDL's comparison of Masamoto VG and MAC from another post. My shopping OCD just kicking in again:


> The MAC Pro is the knife I recommend most often... It's stiffer than almost any other Japanese made knife...
> 
> [MAC]'s got the best handle in the business..., with Masamoto [3rd].
> 
> ...


What is it that allows you to stop thinking about the Masamoto that you can't with the MAC? Is it the agility (I assume this is come component of flexibility and thinness) or the weight? I know the person you were advising in that post eventually went with the Masamoto due to "love at first chop." That may be enough for me, especially considering that MAC sounds more like buying a bulky tractor-trailer than a fine cutting instrument. On the other hand, I do plan to eventually purchase a MAC bread knife, and the MAC Pro would give me a match-set.

*Carbon vs Stainless*

I had convinced myself to go stainless, but last night I started to have second thoughts again. Part of why I had finally decided on stainless was a paragraph in the knife maintenance and sharpening faq mentioning that even if you don't see the effects on the carbon steel blade, it may still be affecting the edge.


> The culprit is corrosion - the effect of acid and micro-rusting. Even on what appears to be a mirror-bright, razor sharp edge, microscopic particles of rust and corrosion will form, attacking the edge and reducing its performance. Unless carbon steel knives are rinsed and dried frequently, their edges will degrade rapidly in kitchen use. The stainless edge will easily outlast them.


Is this really a concern?

I know that carbon knifes need to be cleaned and dried soon after using them, but what is "soon"? Is is a matter of seconds? 5m? 10m?

What is "soon" for citrus and onions?

Once a patina forms, does care get easier?

Is it possible to develop a "graceful" patina that's not unsightly, but will prevent the knife from developing an ugly one?

*Wa vs Yo handles*

I did get the opportunity to try out one Wa handle on a Shun (if I remember right). It was an eccentric "D" shape, and it was surprisingly really comfortable using a pinch grip. I'm not really "used" to a western handle, or any handle for that matter, so I might consider a Wa. Of course that would add even more excellent choices to my tough decision.

The Wa handles don't look sealed. How do they hold up to sweat and water?

Are octagonal and round handles just as comfortable?

*Other knife advice I've solicited?*

I did solicit some advice on another forum and several people there suggested a "Sakai-Yusuke Swedish stainless steel 240mm yo-gyutou." I could only find them on Ebay. 


> Compared to the Masamoto VG, it is thinner, has better geometry and has a more pronounced distal taper, ie thinner, skinnier tip. It also has more of a classic French profile where it narrows or tapers towards the tip, Masamotos maintain a wider, flatter profile along the entire length of the blade ending with a snubbier, blunter tip (commonly described as a 'sheep's foot')


Do you know how this compares to MAC and Masamoto VG?

Also recommended were:

240 mm Ashi from JKI or TKC from CKTG

Ichimonji TKC rebranded as Kikuichi from CKTG

MCUSTA ZANMAI - more expensive, Damascus

I suppose another option is to buy a cheaper knife/guitar, learn how to use/play it and sharpen/tune it, and then step up from there. I assume you'd recommend the Forschner Fibrox or Rosewood in that case.

Thanks again for all your help. I really respect your opinions.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Okay, let's make this simple. Too simple, perhaps, but accurate in its way.

If you want carbon steel, and you weren't bothered by a wa handle, the Masamoto KS wa gyuto is about as good as it gets, in every way. It's expensive, but you will never regret it. They run long, so if you're not all that used to a big knife a 240mm will be perfect -- and probably close to 250mm. I bought a 270, which is 282mm long and have never looked back. But it will cost you a pretty penny.

If you want stainless, the Masamoto and the MAC are both stunningly good. The advantage of Masamoto is some very faint, subtle things in the shape, flexibility, and so on, all of which add up to some superiority that you will probably never notice. The advantage of the MAC is that it has excellent fit and finish, some of the best handles in the business, and reasonably priced.

If you're really having this much trouble deciding, my suggestion is to buy whichever is cheaper and don't sweat it. This is that rarest of choices, in which either one will be the right answer.

A passing note: none of these knives is single-beveled, properly speaking. Even if you sharpen them as asymmetrically as possible, ratio 100/0, it's still double-beveled. A single-beveled knife is a very different animal. Look at pictures of a yanagiba, deba, or usuba, and you'll see that the knife is set up completely differently --- these are single-beveled knives.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh. Then there's the whole "buy a beater and learn to sharpen on it" thing. I did this, and don't recommend it. If you do it, you have to pick your beater very, very carefully. It won't be dirt cheap, either. You need a knife that is as similar as possible to the characteristics of your "real" knife in order for it to work.

In the end, I basically learned to sharpen principally on a Kyoto Aritsugu petty and my Masamoto KS270 wa-gyuto. When I came home from a year in Japan, and had to wait for my knives and other stuff to arrive, I sharpened my old Wusthof, and found that it was wildly not the same thing, because the steel ground completely differently. When I got my Japanese knives eventually, it was like coming home again: suddenly everything just ground and polished the way I thought it ought to.

Don't be fooled by notions that you'll ruin your knife by sharpening it. If you have a good stone, not too coarse, and you go slow and don't use a lot of pressure (let the stone do the work), you won't ruin the knife. You may not like your edges, in which case you do it again, but this is not rocket science and will not blow up or kill you if you're a little wobbly here and there. Don't agonize about it.

And you know what? Let's suppose you go the whole hog, you buy a $350 Masamoto, and after five years or something you decide you really have screwed it up. Okay, buy another one. What did it cost you, $70 a year? Eh, you spend more than that filling your gas tank twice. This is not a priceless art object. Don't fetishize it. Use it, sharpen it, take care of it, and you'll get a lot of pleasure and cutting education out of it. If you really do screw it up royally one day, buy a new one and see what you can do by wildly re-grinding the old one into a different shape, or whatever suits you.


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

Since this has evolved into a general thread on knives and sharpening I hope this is still on topic:  I decided to take the plunge and buy some water stones in the coming week.  All my knives are carbon and I'm committed to being proficient with using stones.  I like the EP a lot but I just have this irrational notion that learning how to use stones to keep your knife in condition is an essential skill.  I'm not sure if it matters much what type of steel you're using on your stones but since everyone has good things to say about the Naniwa SS I'm thinking about just getting a set of SS straight up to keep it simple.  I love the chosera that I've used on my EP but a set of those is about 30% out of my budget.

I was thinking of going with the SS 400, 1k, 3k and 10k

My question is twofold:

For the SS, does anyone think 3k to 10k is too large a jump?  I've seen some people who only make jumps of 2-3x and others who make these huge jumps (5x or more).  So I'm not sure if they're trying to accomplish the same thing or are achieving similar results.  Not knowing how abrasive the 3k is, I'm wondering if I should add a 5k.  Adding the 5k might make sense for touching up existing knives with an decent edge anyway.

The second question is whether this is the most appropriate setup or if there's a better combination for the same or roughly the same cost.  I know this question has been covered roughly 10,000 times before but I can't find the specific answer on any of the forums so thanks for any input.

+D.

One thought, my knives stay fairly sharp so maybe I could get away with 400, 2k, 5k, 10k?  Just speculating.


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## yogidog98 (Jul 27, 2010)

I've almost convinced myself to get the Masamoto HC.  Everyone seems to love it as long as they get one with good F&F.  I figure if I'm going to jump into the world of quality Japanese knives, why not jump in with both feet and get carbon steel.

I do have a question about safety though.  As BDL and others have mentioned, the Masamoto HC and VG are both "agile" knives.  My wife and I are both novices.  Though we've never cut ourselves using our old, cheap Chef knife, I am worried that if we did catch a thumb under one of these ultra-sharp knives it would slice it all the way off.  Does the agility of the Masamoto knives increase the likelihood of the blade twisting on us and catching a finger?  Would a slightly stiffer blade like the MAC Pro lessen the chances of an accident?


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

yogi-d, probably not. Using a sharp knife without losing digits or severing arteries comes back to technique and care. It has little to do with the knife and everything to do with *you*. Learn the basic techniques of holding a knife and cutting. There's some brief primers on youtube (see Norman Weinstein). Learn to use a proper pinch grip. It's not hard and becomes natural very fast. It's pretty much impossible to use a 270mm knife effectively without being familiar with the pinch grip. And concentrate on straight, clean cuts. Below is a video from Chef Michael Jordan and he makes a really good point: concentrate on the quality of your cuts and not the speed. Speed is where a lot of unfortunate events happen. Even with professional chefs (I've seen it).






The carbon knives are generally less flexible then their VG counterparts. I couldn't tell you how much but I'm sure Chris or BDL have some insight. I've found the Western Masamoto carbons to be light but firm as far as Japanese knives go. Sure they have some flex but "whippy" is not a word I would use to describe them. FWIW - a lot of people with mad knife skills like whippy knives.

If you're right handed, it's usually the left hand that you have to be worried about. For a free visual tutorial of what to do with your left hand or how to use a paring knife I would recommend going over to youtube and watching some of Jacque Pepin's shows. His technique is, well, he's Jacque Pepin! And he's all over youtube. The only difference is that he chops a lot instead of slicing (his knives are verrrrry sharp). Coincidentally, his show is sponsored in part by MAC and most of the knives he's using are MACs. Have no clue whether they're Pro or Superior.

But I would say having a high quality, sharp knife presents an opportunity to improve your skills. You'll never get what you want out of the knife without the technique to go with it. If you've got a razor sharp knife and you're cutting celery with your left palm spread out you're asking for it. On the flip side, if you've got a really sharp knife and decent technique, that knife is going to do wonders for you.

+D.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

yogi-d: don't sweat it. What's likely to happen is some very shallow yet nevertheless terrifying cuts. Then you get over it.

Basically what happens is that you've got a super-thin, super-sharp knife, right? So you're zipping along, all nice and pat, and then you just barely touch your skin with the edge. Before it hits, you see it coming and back off, but it's just a hair too late. And that edge touches, and the hair rises on the back of your neck and you think, "oh god, off to the hospital." And you look at your finger, and you find you've got what amounts to a papercut. Why? Because you just barely, barely touched yourself, and the edge cut. It's very scary, but in fact you're not going to hurt yourself. Why? Because it's so sharp, and so light, that you won't use any force cutting, and you'll be going a little slow because you're not used to it, and so the result is that you'll be totally in control.

Believe me, a dull and/or heavy knife is the thing to be scared of. Oh, and of course serrated --- that's ugly stuff.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Sockpuppet:

In essence, the size of the jump is more about how much damage you'll do to the stones than anything else. Minimum, you need a coarse stone to really grind the s--- out of things, a medium stone to put a proper edge on, and a fine stone to polish it. Everything else is a balance between convenience and a certain kind of precision.

Many enthusiasts swear by a progression something like 500, 1k, 3k, 6k, 10k. Many think that there is an excess stone here, and it should be more like 500, 1k, 5k, 10k; the usual counter-argument is that 1k to 5k is 5x and 5k to 10k only 2x. Don't sweat the numbers, but it's a worthy argument.

Me, I go 400, 800, 2k, 6k, 10k, natural-tricky-to-count-but-very-high.

The crucial thing to figure out, and you're not ready to do it yet, is what anchor stone you like. I like the word "anchor" when it comes to knives: an anchor knife is the one that does almost all the work, like a chef's knife, and an anchor stone is the one that the others build from. Coarse stones build up to the anchor, fine stones polish what the anchor has set. So what do you like? See, you don't know yet.

Some people like mud. Others hate mud. If you hate mud, a glass-stone is great, for example, because it doesn't produce any. If you like mud, there are a whole bunch of other options, including some of the SuperStone series (they vary a lot in characteristics, but all are pretty good quality). Some want lots of feedback, others care less. And so it goes.

Unless you're getting some very good deal by buying in bulk, I'd start by buying a good-quality 1k or 2k stone. SuperStone, Chocera, Sigma Power, whatever --- there are lots of choices. Forget polishing for a while, until you know what you're doing, or you'll just deceive yourself and have to go back. Now really learn how to use this stone, and see what you like.

Me, I find I like mud but am not a fanatic, and I adore feedback. So I use a 2k Chocera, which I bought a lot cheaper than you could because I got it on wholesale in Japan. This stone is so fast, consistent, and responsive that I can put a great edge on a passably sharp knife very quickly. After that, it's all gravy. My 6k Arashiyama synthetic is very, very muddy, something of a PITA, and somehow I find it produces a kind of elegant base polish over the Chocera. Then I go to the Naniwa SuperStone 10k, which polishes like you would not believe, and make good and sure that every faintest scratch is perfectly even, something easy to do with a well-set-up bevel, a lot of strokes, and a very light touch. To finish, with knives that gain something from it, I go to a very hard natural stone, barely wet, and work it gently for a while. This produces a strangely hazy finish and a frightening edge. I like that kind of thing, and when I'm in the mood to go whole hog I'll start with an 800 Chocera to set up the 2k smoothly. Mostly, I don't bother: I just flick water on the natural polishing stone and whip it up a little, or else soak the 2k and do some respectable grinding.

For me, this is a good system. But I know lots of guys who'd like something very different indeed. Why? Because at base they like something different in their anchor stone.

So what I'm saying is, don't agonize about the progression. Find a good anchor stone, work with it a while, and if you hate it, sell it and buy another. When you've found the right stone for you, you'll know --- sharpening will become fun. Then you start scoping for good options in higher and lower grits to suit your preferences.


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## sockpuppetdoug (Jun 22, 2010)

hmmmmm.  That gives some structure to the whole process and changes my thinking completely.  Thanks for the advice, Chris.  Very helpful.

+D.


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Ok... I didnt intend this to be a general post since I am still trying to get advice for myself on the knives and sharpening methods to go to.. but what the heck... we're all here to learn... as long as I still get the advice i need i suppose...

So, I've decided on the knife and sharpening method I'd like to go to...

Going for Kayagaki VG10 - Gyuto 240mm. Purely because of a number of reasons..

It's good enough for me to learn on for now... so perhaps getting this would be 'enough' for now... ;p Once I get used to using good knives and learn proper sharpening skills, then i'll consider going for 'better' ones.
There's no way of me having a test run of both the Kayagaki vs Masamoto beforehand... and everyone would have slight preferences of one over another due to different reasons anyway.
Now, is there anything i should be careful of when ordering the Kayagaki? - like the F&F of Masamotos?
Also, there's an ES (Extra Sharp) version so I presume that should be sharp enough for me when I get it? This will give me time to learn how to sharpen on other knives.
As for Sharpening...

Since I'm ordering from JCK.. and they provide a flat fee shipping, why not try the sharpening stones they have available?

Can someone advice me on which to get?
Also, how do their stones compare with the numerous good ones some of you have mentioned here?
Any other thoughts?

Thanks.


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## brisket (Jun 30, 2010)

I bought a Masamoto VG the other week, shipping was only 7$ and they marked it as a gift so I didn't have to pay duties or anything. I was very happy with that.

My Masamoto arrived sharpened asymmetrically(this is when one side of the blade is sharpened more than the other?). On the right hand side theres a wide bevel, and on the left there is practically none near the tip of the blade but more near the heel of the blade. I didn't ask for this sharpening setup, and frankly I'm a little intimidated because I want to sharpen this thing to it's full potential but I've never sharpened freehand before. I think this may be the Christmas Day edge that was referred to earlier because the knife is already dulling and actually has a few small chips on the edge near the heel of the blade.

I am a tradition bound luddite so I'm going to buy some stones and try to learn. I'm going to order some Naniwa Chosera stones from Paul's finest. The have a sale on for "Naniwa Chosera Japanese Whetstone Sharpening Stones, Set of 3: 600, 1000, 5000" for 249$ CDN. Is this a good deal? There's also a 10000 grit for the same price. I'm hovering here with my credit card about to make an impulse buy before heading to work. Been here many times before, it's not a good place to be lol. Please tell what stones to buy, pretend money is a non issue. My knife needs sharpening and I have no stones aahhhh /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif.

Kohno, I'm sorry jumping into your thread, I just couldn't help myself.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, this is a fine kettle of fish.

I'm going to start separate threads for Brisket's, Doug's and Yogi's questions, and just stick with Kohno's here.

Kohno,

You've decided.  That's good in itself.  You made a good decision.  The Kagayaki is a lot of knife for the money.  You made a right decision -- but since you already had the field limited to two good decisions a lot of the congratulations are retroactive.  Mazel Tov so far.

No caveats regarding ordering the Kagayaki.  JCK is a very good company with whom to business -- especially on knives.

I'm not a huge fan of their stone selection.  You can do better.  What I'm not sure about is who the best e-tailers are for Oz.  Shipping costs will probably be significant -- and yes, I understand that's a big part of why you're thinking from Koki (at JCK).   If shipping is expensive, you'll also want to consider whether to buy a complete set of stones now, a limited set to learn on, or a less-expensive learners kit that you can grow out of and replace in a couple of years. 

Some of those choice you'll have to make anyway. 

Give me a chance to respond to Doug -- today or tomorrow -- the answer may be helpful.  If it's not, we can talk more about yours.

BDL


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

thanks again bdl...

Alright... knives aside now...

Onto sharpening stones... From one of the posts in another thread here, found a store here in Oz that sells Naniwa stones... any good?

Naniwa Triple Pack - AUD$265

Includes:

Arato 400 grit

Nakato 1000 grit

Shiageto 3000 grit

Superstone Home Starter Pack - AUD$115

Includes:

Arato 400 grit (thin stone)

Nakato 1000 grit (thin stone)

Which one(s)?

Also, not sure whether i understood right or not, do I need a ceramic hone or am I confusing myself when reading other threads?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes. You need a good rod hone -- or at least it would make your life easier -- for the sort of knives we're talking about.

Ceramic is the most bang for the buck. Speaking of bang, you don't want to bang the knife aganst the hone when you steel. If I don't have steeling instructions up on my blog before you get your knife, ask me here.

Naniwa is a HUGE stone company and make a lot of different stones and lines. The one you want your stones from is the SS (Super Stone) line.

The Japanese names on the sets you're posting pretty much mean coarse, medium, and fine. From a sharpener's viewpoint 1K is medium-coarse, while 3K is on the coarse side of medium-fine.

If the first set is SS (like the second), it's the right stones in the right grits. However, the normal US retail price of the 3K is only about 20% than the 1K, so I find the pricing bizarre.

Possibly it's just Oz, possibly the two stone set is made up of 10mm stones, or it might be worth trying to negotiate the three stone price or hunt up an SS 10K from another dealer.

Something else to think about: Naniwa SS are my first recommendation for a learning sharpening. They are excellent stones and among the best at any grit level regardless of skill, but there are two or three better choices at almost every level for the skilled sharpener. I wrote an embarassingly long and detailed post to Brisket, you might want to take a look. 

Start with the 1K and don't use any other stone until you've become consistently adequate with it. The "Magic Marker Trick" will help you learn to hold your angles, help with pressure, and teach you to see. One you learn to pull (and feel for) a wire and to deburr, and can do them every time that's good enough.

Then, do the same thing with the 3K, although you probably won't need the Magic Marker with it..

By the time you have that down, you'll be holding your angles steady enough and have a good enough idea of what you're doing that you can do some light profiling, flattening the bevels and thinning -- using the "Magic Marker Trick" for at least the first few outings.

All this will probably take something like 6 months or so. By that time, your skills will have grown and credit card recovered sufficiently that you can start thinking about a polishing stone.

BDL


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks.

Alright... a ceramic hone it is then... I THINK I know how to steel the right way... but will wait for your tips when you come up with one just to make sure..

In terms of the stones,

Yes, both of the packs are the SS lines from Naniwa and the first set is the full stone (2nd set just the 10mm ones).

Was even thinking whether I should just buy a 10mm 1000k grit stone first... and only get the rest when i'm more confident. It's not all that much savings getting them in the packs (saves AUD$5?) anyway and I'll be visiting the store itself to pick it up.

So I take that the main grits are:

400k - (used only to 'fix' knives?) and I dont think i'll need this anytime soon (hopefully)

1000k - use this for most sharpening

3000k/10 000k - towards polishing?

I've also read about flattening the knife? what does that mean??


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## daves (Jun 13, 2010)

I was in the same boat as you a few weeks ago, every place I've worked in have only used shuns pretty much and a few other chefs had global but no one with the better japanese knives. I ended up buying the Masamoto and I love it its the best knife I've ever used. I've also found another site that has a few good things (http://www.chef.com.au/) I ordered a few other things from them and they are supposed to be getting some better Japenese knives in and also the Naniwa SS stones. But I bought mine from chefsarmoury and they seem to be working fine for me at the moment.

Dave


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

_*Flattening:*_

Flattening refers to one of two things. It can mean flattening the back of the knife, which is part of sharpening a chisel or hamaguri edge -- and probably has nothing t dow with what you're talking about. Altertnatively, it cam mean flattening the edge bevels themselves, to get rid of any high or low spots.

For a "V" edge, or for the cutting bevel on a multi-bevel edge flattening is critical to getting true sharpness.

*If you're thinking in terms of a different purpose for each stone in a four stone setup: *

The coarse stone (around 150# JIS - 600#) is used for repair and profiling. Profiling can mean a few things. Sometimes it means thinning the knife, just above the edge at a more acute angle than the desired edge angle, to prevent wedging. You don't need to do that often, maybe once a year at most. More often it means flattening the edge bevel which gets messed up over time from steelng and quick, "drive by" sharpening sessions. If the bevels aren't flat, the edge will be "wavy," and unable to be made true, fine or very sharp.

_The medium-coarse stone_ (around 700 to 2K) pulls the first wire, which may or many not be deburred in order to reveal a fresh edge, with a crisp bevel shoulder -- in other words it begins the actual sharpening process at the edge.

_The medium-fine stone_ (around 2K to 6K) refines the wire, which when deburred will reveal a fine, very sharp and very usable edge. The medium-fine stone also polishes some of the scratch left by the 1K -- which refines the bevels as well as the edge, and, in turn, allows the polishing stone to be used with less repetition and effort.

_The polishing stone_ (around 8K and up) doesn't do much sharpening at all. Instead it polishes out the scuff and micro-serration left by the coarser stones so the knife drags less.

Just like with the coarse stone, and unlike the medium stone(s), creating a burr on the polishing stone is unnecessary and undesirable -- although sometimes unavoidable.

Some knives can't take a high polish because the edges scratch too easily or corrode too quickly. Some don't want them because they're reserved for tasks like butchering which are best done with knives which have a little tooth.

BDL


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2010)

kohno said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Alright... a ceramic hone it is then... I THINK I know how to steel the right way... but will wait for your tips when you come up with one just to make sure..


well if you watch the pro chef's on television using a steel, it is the WRONG way to do it. unfortunately, so many people take pride in being able to steel fast and hard like the pro's... lol.


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

if there's somewhere that'll show me how to steel a knife the right way then?

thanks!


Huy Bui said:


> well if you watch the pro chef's on television using a steel, it is the WRONG way to do it. unfortunately, so many people take pride in being able to steel fast and hard like the pro's... lol.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Kohno, you wrote:


> [Is there] somewhere that'll show me how to steel a knife the right way then?


Read this first, then get back to me with any specific questions you might have.

BDL


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Hey guys...

Just wanted to say thanks for those who have poured in their thoughts and advice - esp bdl... I've got my Kagayaki and loving it... still got to get used to how thin the blade is though.

I've not gotten around to buying sharperning stones and a honing rod though... that'll be the next mission to look into!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Glad you're lovin' it, dude.

Sticks and stones, eh?

_*Honing rod: *_

Either an Idahone fine 12" ceramic; or a DMT CS2, which is another fine textured, ceramic rod. Both are very reasonably priced, under $35, and both are well suited to your knife. The Idahone is better made and uses a better ceramic than the DMT. The DMTs are made around a metal insert, and are (nearly) unbreakable. Unfortunately they often ship with some kiln "fluff" stuck to the rods and need to be cleaned up with sandpaper before using it.

*Stones:*

You can do a decent job of sharpening your Kagayaki VG-10 on oilstones. But waterstones are more efficient, and they'll give you more leeway in terms of adding more Japanese knives to your kit.

Beginners can do far worse than building a three stone set of Naniwa SS 10mm stones, with the idea of adding a fourth, polishing stone later. It's a reasonably priced to get stones which are excellent "learners," because the stones and their integral bases provide so much feedback, and are good enough that you don't have to worry about outgrowing them. Even though they're half-thick, they'll last a home cook for several years at least.

Another option, and slightly less expensive, is a combination stone with a medium-coarse and medium-fine surfaces -- 1K and 5K, for instance; and use that until you've mastered the basics of sharpening and flattening; then adding a coarse stone, replacing the middle two stones with full size, and possibly eventually adding an ultra-fine polishing stone.

There are an awful lot of good stones on the market that will do just fine for Kagayaki, your budget and your current sharpening abilities.

BDL


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## kohno (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks.

I already know where i can get the Naniwa stones here in Australia but somehow a challenge to find Idahone ceramics! Anyone here knows where i can get one locally here or which website offers them internationally?

Thanks!


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