# Gesshin Uraku vs Richmond Addict 2 AEBL



## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm a home cook looking for a 240mm gyuto to replace my 20 year old Wusthof chef as my main knife. I'm not looking for a new hobby or a "starter" knife, but something that can give me years of good service with proper care. I will get a combination stone and give hand sharpening a try. Anyway, for possibly arbitrary reasons I've narrowed my search to these two knives. Both get good reviews as capable all-round knives at attractive prices, both are house brands of the two e-tailers that get mentioned most often on this board. They are comparably priced. My assumption is that I can't go far wrong with either one, but I am curious whether any of the habitués of this forum (from whose posts I've learned a lot) have any thoughts on the comparison before I pull the trigger. Thanks in advance for any insights.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Uraku is thinner, has a lower profile, and better F&F on the blade.  The Addict is tall -- very tall -- and is available in a range of alloys all of which are better than the Uraku.  It's made OEM for Richmond and Richmond blade cosmetics can leave something to be desired. 

Both are extremely functional, high-value knives.  Can't lose. 

I think Phaedrus -- who occasionally posts oh CT -- has extensive experience with the Addict, but am not sure how often he checks his PM box. 

You can ask about it on CKtG forum, but most of us there have a predisposition to like Richmond knives. You can also ask at the KKF, but the hostility there to all things related to CKtG and Richmond is palpable; and there's also a predisposition to like anything related to JKI.  Unfortunately, the other knife forums seem to either be moribund or to reflect a very limited range of opinions. 

The moral of the story is that you have to be careful about making sure that whomever you talk to has even a shred of objectivity. 

Talk to Jon Broida at JKI about the Urauku and Mark Richmond at CKtG about the Addict.  Both are amazingly candid about their own stuff and both view the chance to help people like you with these sorts of choices as the best part of their job.  

BDL


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## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks, BDL. Very useful information. I favor the thin, low profile of the Uraku. How important in practical terms is the superior alloy of the Richmond? (I am interested in the AEBL version.) Is there anything in this price range combining a shape similar to the Uraku and alloy comparable to the Richmond?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

How important is the difference in alloy?  Not very. 

Is there another knife which combines the profile of the Uraku with the alloy of the Richmond at a similar price?  Yes and no.  The Sakai Takayuki Wa Gyuto is made from AEB-L like the Richmond, but because of different heat treating requires more maintenance.  I'm not quite sure how it compares to the Uraku in that respect. 

It has a very good profile, excellent F&F, sharpens very easily to a really good edge,  but at $190 I'm not sure if you'd say it was in the same price range as the Uraku or Addict.  Really nice knife, but there are lots of choices at around that price.

If you're going to stretch the budget to near $200, you should take a look at the 4-1/2 oz Richmond AEB-L laser, and its 7oz brother, the Richmond Ultimatum. 

I have a 51200 carbon Ultimatum and just love it for it's versatility and feel on the board.  It retired my carbon Sabs, taking their place in the rotation with the Konosuke lasers. 

BDL


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## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

Very helpful. Thanks again.


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## coffeemike (Jun 8, 2010)

boar_d_laze said:


> I have a 51200 carbon Ultimatum and just love it for it's versatility and feel on the board. It retired my carbon Sabs, taking their place in the rotation with the Konosuke lasers.
> 
> BDL


BDL: Wait - and not to threadjack this, I'd love to know what you decide, Crispy - but something outdid your carbon Sabs? I'm impressed. Can you expand on this?

Mike


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## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

One additional question: I understand that the Uraku has a fairly asymmetrical grind--I've read 70/30. I'm only dimly aware of what that means, but I'm concerned that it will complicate sharpening. I'm also not sure whether it is compatible with my back-up sharpening plan, which is to rely on one of the 15-degree edge Chefs Choice models.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Posted by *Crispy* 


> One additional question: I understand that the Uraku has a fairly asymmetrical grind--I've read 70/30. I'm only dimly aware of what that means, but I'm concerned that it will complicate sharpening. I'm also not sure whether it is compatible with my back-up sharpening plan, which is to rely on one of the 15-degree edge Chefs Choice models.


70/30 isn't a lot of asymmetry, and a CC can handle it -- as long as you don't mind 15* bevel angles.

I think though, that when you step up into the Uraku class, you're cheating yourself of what the knife can really do by using something like a CC, pull-through, or (God forbid) a "Sharpmaker."

As with all things Gesshin, talk to Jon.

BDL


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## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks, again BDL. I've ordered the Uraku and am now thinking about whether I should get the Edge Pro Apex as my sharpening system. Unfortunately, even the cheapest two stone Apex kit doubles my investment, and I'm not sure whether it will meet basic sharpening needs. Perhaps grist for another thread.


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

boar_d_laze said:


> Uraku is thinner, has a lower profile, and better F&F on the blade. The Addict is tall -- very tall -- and is available in a range of alloys all of which are better than the Uraku. It's made OEM for Richmond and Richmond blade cosmetics can leave something to be desired.
> 
> Both are extremely functional, high-value knives. Can't lose.
> 
> ...


How do you know that "all" of the alloys used in the Addict series are better than the Uraku? Have you compared each and every Addict to the Uraku?


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## sigma (Mar 26, 2013)

mhlee said:


> How do you know that "all" of the alloys used in the Addict series are better than the Uraku? Have you compared each and every Addict to the Uraku?


You seem very angry.


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

sigma said:


> You seem very angry.


Angry? No. I simply asked these questions to find out if a person who makes such a broad, blanket statement can, in fact, support his statement with facts and personal experience instead of hearsay, conjecture or assumptions.

Do you think that it's okay to make a blanket statement of opinion such as what BDL wrote ("is available in a range of alloys all of which are better than the Uraku") without personally comparing each and every alloy that the Addict is offered in to the Uraku?


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## sigma (Mar 26, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Angry? No. I simply asked these questions to find out if a person who makes such a broad, blanket statement can, in fact, support his statement with facts and personal experience instead of hearsay, conjecture or assumptions.
> 
> Do you think that it's okay to make a blanket statement of opinion such as what BDL wrote ("is available in a range of alloys all of which are better than the Uraku") without personally comparing each and every alloy that the Addict is offered in to the Uraku?


Do I think it is OK to make such a statement? You bet your pretty little bottom I do. From reading his posts BDL seems very knowledgeable and I am sure he has tried the other alloys in other knives, at least, so he should have a really good sense of what is what and his comments are valuable because of that.


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## pahi53 (Jul 13, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Angry? No. I simply asked these questions to find out if a person who makes such a broad, blanket statement can, in fact, support his statement with facts and personal experience instead of hearsay, conjecture or assumptions.
> 
> Do you think that it's okay to make a blanket statement of opinion such as what BDL wrote ("is available in a range of alloys all of which are better than the Uraku") without personally comparing each and every alloy that the Addict is offered in to the Uraku?


So, where do you get your information, from the manufacturer? or from blogs like this? Before I make any purchase online I check out the blogs/forums and I always! seek out reviews from Amazon.Com. They sell just about everything that I cannot even imagine. IMHO "BDL's opinions Rock!


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

sigma said:


> Do I think it is OK to make such a statement? You bet your pretty little bottom I do. From reading his posts BDL seems very knowledgeable and I am sure he has tried the other alloys in other knives, at least, so he should have a really good sense of what is what and his comments are valuable because of that.


First, you do know that BDL has a "relationship" with CKTG, the seller of Richmond knives, right? http://www.cheftalk.com/t/69164/line-cook-knife-set-recommendations#post_376813

Second, according to his previous posts, he's actually never used the Gesshin Uraku: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/75456/looking-for-some-japanese-steel#post_425856

Third, according to your post, it sounds like you believe that the same alloy used by one maker is the same quality if another maker uses the same alloy. Is this correct?


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

pahi53 said:


> So, where do you get your information, from the manufacturer? or from blogs like this? Before I make any purchase online I check out the blogs/forums and I always! seek out reviews from Amazon.Com. They sell just about everything that I cannot even imagine. IMHO "BDL's opinions Rock!


No. I buy knives and come to my own opinions and conclusions.


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## sigma (Mar 26, 2013)

mhlee said:


> First, you do know that BDL has a "relationship" with CKTG, the seller of Richmond knives, right? http://www.cheftalk.com/t/69164/line-cook-knife-set-recommendations#post_376813
> 
> Second, according to his previous posts, he's actually never used the Gesshin Uraku: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/75456/looking-for-some-japanese-steel#post_425856
> 
> Third, according to your post, it sounds like you believe that the same alloy used by one maker is the same quality if another maker uses the same alloy. Is this correct?


Are you in law school or something, because this reads like somebody who is trying to sound lawyerly. Also, you are trying to expand the issue so as to make a point when one is not available to you. His statements are about different steel alloys and his impressions of them. He doesn't go so far as to say alloy is determinative, and neither do I. He implies, and I believe, that it is a significant factor in a knife.

So, anent your first, let me ask you a question. Do you have a professional relationship with Japanese Knife Imports, or do you go from website to website defending and propping them just so somebody there might like you?


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## popcorny (Sep 4, 2013)

mhlee appears to be a KKF regular who seems to hate on Richmond, and I suspect has just come over here to troll. I suggest you don't bother feeding him.


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

sigma said:


> Are you in law school or something, because this reads like somebody who is trying to sound lawyerly. Also, you are trying to expand the issue so as to make a point when one is not available to you. His statements are about different steel alloys and his impressions of them. He doesn't go so far as to say alloy is determinative, and neither do I. He implies, and I believe, that it is a significant factor in a knife.
> 
> So, anent your first, let me ask you a question. Do you have a professional relationship with Japanese Knife Imports, or do you go from website to website defending and propping them just so somebody there might like you?


I'm an attorney but that has nothing to do with anything here. I also happen to be a serious knife enthusiast.

You seem to forget that you're the one who commented about my post. I just wanted to see if BDL would respond.

That's why I asked the questions I asked. I just wanted to know if he's used the Uraku and compared it to all of the steels in the Addict line since he's the one that said that *all* of the alloys in the Addict line are better than the Uraku.

And, no, I have no professional relationship with Japanese Knife Imports. But, I have bought numerous items from Japanese Knife Imports. Jon sells great products and provides great service. I also don't need to prop them up.


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

popcorny said:


> mhlee appears to be a KKF regular who seems to hate on Richmond, and I suspect has just come over here to troll. I suggest you don't bother feeding him.


I didn't realize this was a place where only Richmond products can be discussed.


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## sigma (Mar 26, 2013)

Mhlee, it is clear from these responses that you would be well served by changing your tone.


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

I respect BDL's opinion and he is a knowledgeable person, but I really would like to hear some explanation about his statement about the alloys. On paper "Uraku" is made of a "lesser" steel, correct, but real life performance is up to discover by somebody who used both. BDL's statement sounded quite harsh/bias.


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## crispy (Jul 21, 2013)

At the risk of stepping into a religious war that I don't understand, I thought it might be helpful to give the perspective of the OP on BDL's response to my question. I was asking for comparative evaluations of two specific knives. I found BDL's answer to be quite balanced and helpful. He described pros and cons of each (e.g., better alloy vs. better F&F) in what seemed to me an evenhanded manner and refrained from making any overall judgments, leaving me to evaluate what factors are most important to me. Far from covering up his own biases, he specifically warned that people answering such questions on forums--including at least implicitly himself--were likely to have personal biases that I should be aware of. I certainly didn't find his initial assessment of the Uraku to be overly "harsh." Furthermore, when I followed up on his statement about the relative quality of the alloys by asking how important that factor is, he answered "not very." Overall, BDL's posts influenced me to choose the Uraku (which I'm happy with, by the way, although I think I have a good deal of learning to do before I will be able to sharpen it optimally). So, if anyone is evaluating BDL's responses on the basis of whether they were helpful to the OP or unduly critical of the Uraku, the answers are "yes" and "no."


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

mostadonte2 said:


> I respect BDL's opinion and he is a knowledgeable person, but I really would like to hear some explanation about his statement about the alloys. On paper "Uraku" is made of a "lesser" steel, correct, but real life performance is up to discover by somebody who used both. BDL's statement sounded quite harsh/bias.


Could you explain why you consider the Uraku to be a "lesser" steel?


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## mhlee (Aug 28, 2013)

Crispy said:


> At the risk of stepping into a religious war that I don't understand, I thought it might be helpful to give the perspective of the OP on BDL's response to my question. I was asking for comparative evaluations of two specific knives. I found BDL's answer to be quite balanced and helpful. He described pros and cons of each (e.g., better alloy vs. better F&F) in what seemed to me an evenhanded manner and refrained from making any overall judgments, leaving me to evaluate what factors are most important to me. Far from covering up his own biases, he specifically warned that people answering such questions on forums--including at least implicitly himself--were likely to have personal biases that I should be aware of. I certainly didn't find his initial assessment of the Uraku to be overly "harsh." Furthermore, when I followed up on his statement about the relative quality of the alloys by asking how important that factor is, he answered "not very." Overall, BDL's posts influenced me to choose the Uraku (which I'm happy with, by the way, although I think I have a good deal of learning to do before I will be able to sharpen it optimally). So, if anyone is evaluating BDL's responses on the basis of whether they were helpful to the OP or unduly critical of the Uraku, the answers are "yes" and "no."


Did BDL ever say that he's actually used an Uraku?


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## vic cardenas (Nov 11, 2012)

It's interesting that we are all debating over a supposed "lesser" quality steel. I specifically messaged Jon several months ago just to ask what type of steel is used on the Uraku. He said the maker won't disclose and that it's some type of moly blend. So, with that out in the open, is every "moly blend" a lesser steel? 

Not to stir the pot anymore. I value BDL's input just as much as the next guy here.


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Could you explain why you consider the Uraku to be a "lesser" steel?


John said that Uraku's knives are comparable to AUS-10. AUS-10 is relatively similar to 440C or VG1. All those three are lesser steel then AEB-L or CPM154 on *paper*.

As for the steel performance at the knife level, it's up to somebody who used both as I said before.

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QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles></xml><![endif][if gte mso 10]><![endif]


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AEB-L,AUS10&ni=878,875&hrn=1&gm=0


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## mostadonte2 (Jun 11, 2013)

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/st...,AUS10,CPM145,440C&ni=878,875,,420&hrn=1&gm=0


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

sorry... i was posting from crappy internet connection in mexico... a lot of people talk about how aeb-l is a special steel on paper, but as you can see, its not... its great heat treating that makes it something.  Aus-10 has higher carbon for example, and can reach higher hrc.  At then end of the day, its all about HT.

Anyways, thats why i posted the chart i posted.


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## harlock0083 (Feb 11, 2013)

JBroida said:


> sorry... i was posting from crappy internet connection in mexico... a lot of people talk about how aeb-l is a special steel on paper, but as you can see, its not... its great heat treating that makes it something. Aus-10 has higher carbon for example, and can reach higher hrc. At then end of the day, its all about HT.
> 
> Anyways, thats why i posted the chart i posted.


I was under the assumption (not sure why) that AEB-L had higher C content. Now I learned something today.


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