# Looking for a Gyuto



## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Hello,

this is my first post here in Cheftalk, first of all I apologies for my English... I will try to explain what I am looking for.

I'm not a professional, just like cooking at home. I have a paring knife Saiun Damascus and a little Shigeki Guyto 155mm.

Saiun is pretty but the blade is a little bit thick. Shigeki looks more cheap knife but the blade is thin and it cuts very well, the profile also is good. Saiun keep the edge better than Shigeki. They have both VG10 edge.

I would like to buy a 210mm Gyuto, 240mm is to big for my very little kitchen, I would like thin blade but not a laser, still stiff blade. Medium weight knife... like 170-190gr with almost flat profile and a little convex blade.

When I cut potatoes, carrots or zucchini with my Shigeki Gyuto is sometime difficult to push the slice away, it stay on the blade. With Saiun I've not this problem, I think it depends from convex blade of Saiun. Am I right ?

So I think that a quite thin blade but little convex and stiff would be ideal : )

About the steal... I have two VG10 knives and I am wondering if buying another VG10 or change the steal. I don't want classical carbon blade because I like a blade quite resistant to rust an discolor.

What do you think of these knives ?

- Kagayaki VG10

- Hattori FH

- CarboNext

- Akifusa also known as Ikeda, Artisan, Haruyuki, Richmond SRS15 (isn't it ? )

First of all I have to decide the steal, VG10 or SRS15 PM or what else ?

When I cook I sometimes leave the knife without drying it for 2 or 3 hours. If I have some guest for diner, maybe I will let the knife without drying until the guest leave... Can this damage CarboNext and Akifusa blade ? Does SRS15 discolor or rust in 3 hours ?

Anyway, I don't leave the knife in the water !

Thank you for your advice !

Marco


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

... I forgot to say that I have have two stones, Sueiro 1000/3000 and JCK 8000. I sharp my knife once a month, I am not very good but I like sharpening, so the edge out of the box is not important.

Here some pics of my knifes:





  








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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

your bottom knife is in desperate need of thinning


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

I agree with you !

I don't know if I have the skill to do that properly ... I have just thinned the edge with a lowest degree than the original but the blade is still thick. 

How can I thin the blade ? working the blade with 1000 stone, the blade almost parallel to the stone ?


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

you could do it with a 1k stone, but it will take forever. This is what coarse stones are for. I made a couple of videos on the subject:


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

I thinned after watching thoose videoes and got great results jon is extremely talented


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you Jon  very nice video! I will try thinning the blade as you show in the video, using the marker, very good idea.

I have Saiun paring knife only since 6 months, it's quite thick. I have changed the edge angle few days ago, before it was less sharp.

marco


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Ok, I reverse the question: is there any reason why I should'n pick an Artisan 210 ? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

... maybe to brittle ?

Japanwoodworker sell Artisan at interesting price...

Marco


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

SRS-15 (stainless) and HAP40 (semistainless) are 2 great all-around knife steels, very fine grain, very durable, and "relatively" easy to sharpen.  The Akifusa got a great review on ZKnives, and everywhere else it's mentioned.  This is definitely not a beater knife, and I don't know it's the same knife as the Artisan.

Rick


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Zknives review says they're the same, with subtle geometry differences:

Quote from zknives.com:

_The word out there is that, Akifusa == Ikeda == Artisan, same SRS-15 powder metallurgy(PM) steel, same maker, just different brands. Although, Artisian knives are tad thicker than Akifusa brand. Blade geometry is essentially the same._

Looks to me like a great knife but i would go for the 240mm. gyuto. And remember it's clad.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I used to think that stainless cladding was so cool.  If you start thinning your knives, you'll hate stainless cladding.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

MillionsKnives said:


> I used to think that stainless cladding was so cool. If you start thinning your knives, you'll hate stainless cladding.


Sure. And the feeling is so different. If i had to begin again a knife search i would certainly go for mono steel. But you know: hammered damascus, san mai, fancy paterns, pearl skin, etc. are like desired jewelry in the eyes of a newbie. Live and learn.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

MillionsKnives said:


> I used to think that stainless cladding was so cool. If you start thinning your knives, you'll hate stainless cladding.


Really? That horrible Shun steak knife of mine doesn't behave so badly over the stones. I attacked that faux Damascus every time I sharpened, just for the fun of it. Cladding is soft stuff, water stones don't clog. So what is the problem you experience? Unless maybe you're talking about restoring finish?

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It feels unpleasant on the stones and takes longer than carbon cladding or kurouchi. That's enough reason for me.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I ought to get some carbon knives just so I don't assume everything is like stainless....

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Anyway if OP is not good at cleaning up the knife in a timely fashion, then monosteel stainless or stainless clad are the options.


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you for your opinion !

As Milionsknives said, I have to choose between mono-steel stainless or (semi)stainless clad because I prefer a knife that could resist to some moisture for 3-4 hours. I dry almost always my knives after cooking but ... not always.

Maybe the most "safe" (in terms of value) choice is Hattori VG10, but as I have already two VG10 knives I maybe would like to try an other steel. Then SRS15 and HAP40 are the steals I am looking for. I've read some comments about the comparison between CarboNext (or Kikuichi TKC) and Akifusa. Akifusa seems to be better... Otherwise Richmond HAP40 is the "contestant".

I know also that the feeling of a clad is different from a mono-steel and many people don't like it. Unfortunately I've not the possibility to try a clad before buying it.

And now... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif I've to ask you what does it mean in English:

"This is definitely not a beater knife" ... beater knife ???

"Anyway if OP is not good at cleaning up the knife in a timely fashion"... Does OP mean "one person" ?

Marco


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Beater knife - something used for heavy tasks, breaking chicken bones, squash, lobster, etc

OP - original poster that started the thread


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

MillionsKnives said:


> Beater knife - something used for heavy tasks, breaking chicken bones, squash, lobster, etc
> 
> OP - original poster that started the thread


Ok, I will not use the knife to heavy tasks as breaking chicken bones but I will use it for all the rest, like squash, pineapples, melon, watermelon etc etc.

I think that I should buy something more stiff than Akifusa/Richmond SRS15 like Hattori FH or Richmond HAP40 but... the truth is that I'm falling in love with Akifusa /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif


Benuser said:


> About the feeling if it's a clad: all is about the amount of hard core that got freed. See it as as a pencil where you need to abrade a bit of soft wood.


 Very nice comparison ! Clad will reduce vibrations on the blade... I think I can live with clad knife.

I have thinned Saiun, as John suggest me, before with 600 sand paper and then with 1k stone. It's not yet a thin blade but it is thinner than before. I also attack some damascus when I've sharped the edge.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I use my very thin gyuto for melons and pineapple. The most important thing is to have perfect technique. You have to cut straight, twisting while cutting those items will likely damage the edge.


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *MillionsKnives*
> 
> I use my very thin gyuto for melons and pineapple. The most important thing is to have perfect technique. You have to cut straight, twisting while cutting those items will likely damage the edge.


Thank you for your advice MK /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Here some photos of the thinned paring knife... ok, it's still thick but less than before:





  








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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

Hi OP,

I have Akifusa 210mm Gyuto. It is a very nice knife and SRS15 is good steel.

Just like you I also leave my knife sometimes after work unwashed. Sometimes even for a day (not after cutting acid food, but sometimes when I prepare my sandwich cutting prosscuto or salami).

Absolutely no issue with Akifusa, the knife is still totally shiny just like it was the first day. I now have it for 3 years and I do not have any stains.

Compared to my other knives that are ZDP189 (rare and expensive) and aogami super (carbon steel rusting like crazy) the steel is a bit softer, it does not hold the edge so long, but it still holds it for a very long time. For sure it will be significantly better as VG10.

When I was buying Akifusa this was one of the cheapest options for such quality steel!

The only slight downside with this knife is that the edges on the spine were really sharp - the part where you put your index finger on the knife. I took some effort to make that part a bit round and now it is better for cutting. Not so aesthetics any more unfortunately...


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

krx927 said:


> Hi OP,
> 
> I have Akifusa 210mm Gyuto. It is a very nice knife and SRS15 is good steel.
> 
> ...


Hi Krx927,

thank you for advice and for the comparison between SRS15, ZDP189 and AS. I was just looking for some gyutos with clad on carbon core and wa-handle. But I defenetly think that carbon steel rust or discolor to fast for me. So I am "studying" the different steels, SRS15, ZDP189, Ginsan, Hap40, SG-2, R2 etc...

After a month of looking around on the web, I think that the most important for me is a quite flat profile, medium to light weight with fin blade on the tip, almost rust resistant and holding well the edge. I don't mind if it is difficult to sharp, if is clad or not, Damascus, hammered or what else.

Akifusa is stil the best choice for me now, but more I look to wa-handle and more I like it. Does anybody have SG2 or R2 steel knife ? Just thinking at Kurosaki R2

Bye,

Marco


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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Just a side note: Aogami Super rusting like crazy?? It's one of the least reactive carbon steels. Gross abuse is needed to have it rust. In normal use it will get almost instantly a patina that will further protect against rust.


I was talking from perspective of somebody who is buying carbon knife for the first time, at least compared to stainless steel. It really demands different handling, nothing comparable to other knives...

Example: One I washed it and I forgot it wet in the drainer tray. Next day it was completely rusty.

Mine Aogami super is only slowly developing patina so I do not know how much other carbon steels need.

But in any case for me the feel in cutting by far supersedes other knives I have.


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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

kreisky said:


> Hi Krx927,
> 
> thank you for advice and for the comparison between SRS15, ZDP189 and AS. I was just looking for some gyutos with clad on carbon core and wa-handle. But I defenetly think that carbon steel rust or discolor to fast for me. So I am "studying" the different steels, SRS15, ZDP189, Ginsan, Hap40, SG-2, R2 etc...
> 
> ...


Hi Marco,

I also have one in SG2 steel - Bu-Rei-Zen (Blazen) Honesuki. I cannot 100% compare it to Akifusa SRS15 because I use Blazen very rarely. I use this knife as boning knife or when I need to do some more delicate cutiing of meat or fish. I never use it for anything else. I am keeping that knife always extremely sharp so that it comes handy for tasks I described. So I cannot give you any comparison on how long it stays sharp.

But general impression is that the steel is pretty similar to SRS15. Similary I never got any stain on it, I consider it totally stainless...

I also must say that Akifusa complies with your other demands: it is very thin, it has flat profile, is very light and has fine blade and it holding well the edge (relatively). I checked that Kurosaki and I see it is hammered. I have one Yoshikane petty, hammered and I must say it is almost as thick as Akifusa being much much smaller knife - I do not know if it the same with Kurosaki. BTW Yoshikane is made out of SKD steel and this one is staining...

Me personally do not find any kind of difference in the handle shape. They are all good for me and I try/have them all. The most important is that the knife is balanced...


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

R2 and SG2 are the same alloy, but as R2 understand it is marketed to makers who hand-forge rather than merely just waterjet out and grind the blade to shape.  Hand forging significantly refines the grain structure of most alloys apparently including this one.  I have heard talk that SG2/R2 may possibly hold a very acute angled edge better than SRS-15 (like 20deg inclusive or less), just talk, but certainly SRS15 is a superior alloy all around.  The consensus around here so far heavily favors the Akifusa in your case.

Rick


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Thanks,

me to I think that Kurosaki R2 is thicker than Akifusa. I was just trying to find some similar knife with wa-handle and maybe a very little thicker blade than Akifusa in order to have more convex grind but still fine on the tip.

Anyway I think I will pick an Akifusa. Just a question to Krz927... what do you think about Akifusa on hard veggie, does the blade flex or twist easily according to your experience ?

Marco


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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

I do not know what you consider hard veggie - if you refer to pumpkin it might - slicing it in half, but not slicing the pieces. But pumpkin is hardness of a different league.

It is a bit more flexing as other knifes, example compared to the wusthofs or henckels, but those are very thick. I never had an issue because it would be flexing. for all veggies I was cutting it was just perfect.

it really is a nice knife.

the only problem you will have after buying is that after some time you will want to try out some other Japanese knives


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *krx927*
> the only problem you will have after buying is that after some time you will want to try out some other Japanese knives


...I am already in the mood for /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Thanks!

*PS*: do you have 210 or 240 ? I have a little kitchen my board is 16x16in (40x40cm) I prefer 210 but I am wondering about 240...


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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

> *PS*: do you have 210 or 240 ? I have a little kitchen my board is 16x16in (40x40cm) I prefer 210 but I am wondering about 240...


I have 210 as I prefer this size. Before my times of Japanese knives I bought one Henckels 240 (or similar). I really did not like it too much as it was too big and heavy. I was lucky that I could sold it to some friend. Perhaps this size for light Japanese knife would be OK, perhaps I will order my fourth Gyuto in this size


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Sometimes 210 is just too short. You mentioned watermelon, which is definitely a case where it is short. A head of lettuce or cabbage could take more effort than it needs to with a shorter knife.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Unless your counters are only a foot wide the size of your kitchen, or cutting board for that matter, is irrelevant.  You already have a small Gyuto, 240+ does seem the way to go from there.

Rick


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Two more advantages of a 240 mm. gyuto: more knuckle clearence, more food to pick up with the wider blade.


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you very much, your opinions are really helpful. A month ago I didn't know about nothing concerning Japanese knife, now I can choose between laser, medium weight, workhorse, convex grind, flat profile or belly, different steels etc.

Akifusa is the one if I choose stainless steel, but now I wonder "jumping" directly into carbon knives /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif, I mean, clad carbon knives.

Looking around, I found that Richmond AS Laser could be a nice choice. The blade's grind remind me to Konosuke Ginsan. Thin grind with a more stiff spine, convex profile for non-sticking yet medium-light weight and wa-handle (I like wa handle). Not as flat as Akifusa but not too belly. I hope/believe that Richmond is stiffer than other Laser.

The inconvenient I see are that the very thin grind of Richmond could be more fragile or prone to break than Akifusa, and, of course, rust issue. I don't mind patina or discoloring but rust is quite a problem. If I am not wrong, white steel is more reactive than blue steel.

What about blue steel 1, 2 or AS ?

I read on zknives.com that Chromium is added for corrosion resistance, and blue steel 1, 2 or AS have the same percentage of it. So... it seems to be the same rust resistance for all types of blue steel.

I have not found a lot of review on this knife... do you think that for hard ingredient Akifusa and Richmond are about on the same level ? If Richmond is more flexible/fragile than Akifusa, then it's not the good choice for me.

marco


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I personally am not concerned with food sticking to a knife.  Even if you can zip through zucchini so fast that it flies, so what if the coins travel a bit.  I only vaguely recall the Akifusa's dimensions but I don't believe they were too thin.  The Vic Rosewould I reviewed recently had perfectly flat sides to which a potato would stick as if held by a vaccum pump, so what?  The fact is the same potato slid off very easily, so what need really is their for it to flop off as it would with a thick and convex grind that would not go through a carrot so easily and also jam somewhat in large squash and swede?  Certainly you can have totally different knives for each task you come across, but to pick one knife to do it all I personally would take the reasonably thin one with the great steel, ie, Akifusa.

Rick


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you Rick, I understand what you mean. 

I have not cutting skills nor experience, but the only thing that I don't like to much of my little flat and thin gyuto is the fact that it is sticking. 

But if the knife is to thick and it jams on squash or don't cut easily carrots... I also prefer a "reasonably thin one".

Marco


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## krx927 (Oct 13, 2014)

I think you should just buy one and not worry so much! All of the knives discussed in this tread will give you so much better performance than any of non Japanese ones. You cannot even compare!

And like mentioned earlier very soon you will want to some other Japanese knife to try.

And just my 2 ct, I would go at the beginning for non carbon one. Carbon steel literally needs wiping as you work + immediate cleaning and wiping with dry cloth. Sometimes it is a hassle. This is why I have both types. If I am lazy in the evening cutting my prosciutto I can just leave it on the counter...


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## denverveggienut (Mar 8, 2012)

Blue steel does have a hair more corrosion resistance than white steel, but in either case, it is generally the cladding that is what is most reactive, not the core steel, and the cladding can be all over the map as far as reactivity. I've got a mono steel white #2 knife with a solid patina, and find it to be very UN-reactive, whereas I have a blue #2 knife that has a very reactive cladding, and I used to have a Tojiro ITK knife that was white #2 and the cladding on that was EXTREMELY reactive. It seemed to get orange rust if you just looked at it funny...


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## kreisky (Sep 27, 2014)

krx927 said:


> I think you should just buy one and not worry so much! All of the knives discussed in this tread will give you so much better performance than any of non Japanese ones. You cannot even compare!
> 
> And like mentioned earlier very soon you will want to some other Japanese knife to try.
> 
> And just my 2 ct, I would go at the beginning for non carbon one. Carbon steel literally needs wiping as you work + immediate cleaning and wiping with dry cloth. Sometimes it is a hassle. This is why I have both types. If I am lazy in the evening cutting my prosciutto I can just leave it on the counter...


krx927 I don't worry at all /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif I just like speaking and evaluating different possibility... but you're right, it's time to buy !

Thank you for all yours information ! 


DenverVeggieNut said:


> Blue steel does have a hair more corrosion resistance than white steel, but in either case, it is generally the cladding that is what is most reactive, not the core steel, and the cladding can be all over the map as far as reactivity. I've got a mono steel white #2 knife with a solid patina, and find it to be very UN-reactive, whereas I have a blue #2 knife that has a very reactive cladding, and I used to have a Tojiro ITK knife that was white #2 and the cladding on that was EXTREMELY reactive. It seemed to get orange rust if you just looked at it funny...


... not too funny /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I wrote "clad carbon knife" but I meant: stainless clad on a carbon core /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif.


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