# I can't believe the information some of you are sharing........



## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm 29 years old.  Been doin' this awesome s**t my whole life.

I've been cooking for almost 15 years professionally - even longer personally.  Made Sous twice, first time age 21.  blah blah, not a glamor chef, so I'll save all that.  But, my resume is legit and respectable.   

MY POINT THOUGH is this.... some of you old-skoolers are frickin' geniuses. 

I've read and read and read these threads.....  most of the time not posting.  Sometimes I do.  Was a member of this site years ago but I forgot my screen name.  lol

Anyway, there's a lot of you here that I have tremendous respect for, and I think it's awesome that you're all so willing to join everybody and spread food knowledge like wildfire.

I love this place.    Iron-workers and telemarketers don't have sites like this.  We are truly privileged.  8 ^ )

Thanks to the originals! 

Gratitude = Infinite


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

When you get a bit older like us , it will be your turn to share .


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Thank you.   There are no secrets.  Just skill and the willingness to work.


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifIf you listen to some of the culinary instructors today they will say " Their is nothing being done today that hasn't been done before." Well, don't you believe it, there are things being done today that has never been done before. And there are things that we use to do that we should be doing today that we aren't. The cooking profession is a learning profession. If you ever get to old to learn, you are to old to cook. In "The Old School" you had to earn a person respect to learn the trade secrets like "put a little sugar in your tomato sauce to counter react the acid" or " put a little vinegar or lemon juice in your pie crust to add acid to relax the gluten."Nowadays the youngsters expect you tell them everthing because you owe it to them. A lot of the secrets I learned from my mentors have never been written down. If you get a little overflow on this forum you are welcome but their is a lot knowledge that will never be written down, the same as we have lost a lot knowledge when we lost our mentors. So rather than look for the latest book on the market, look for a Chef that has paid his "Dues" and not his "tuition fees' to a school./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

Wow...a media where the the young 'listen' to the old and appreciate it..... must be 'cos it takes care of the different speeds of the generations! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Caterchef ...recently I got told off for the sugar thing by an Italian Chef friend. He said it was a quickfix because if you simmer out your tomatoes long enough the sweetness will kick in as with a wine reduction.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Caterchef  .....Well thought, and well said


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Nothing against age and experience, but some of the best food I'm seeing comes out of kitchens run -- and well run -- by execs and owner/execs in their late twenties and early thirties. 

I can think of a couple of guys in particular who were culinary forces to be reckoned with on an international scale after only a couple of years in the kitchen.  Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Jeremiah and Jonathan. 

How old would Roger Vergé  have to have been before you'd ask his advice?

Furthermore, some people can put out a good spread day after day for fifty years or more, not know how to give good advice, and remain tools to the end.  In fact, it's not that uncommon.

There's always another hand, isn't there? 

Outside of pastry and baking, I haven't met many people who've learned enough to justify the time and expense of chef school which actually applies to the pressure and individual kitchen idiosyncracies of professional cooking.   But as Fats said, "One never know, do one?"

The point is you ask anyone who may have some insight and hold still long enough to listen to the question, then evaluate the advice on its own merits and as it applies to you.

BDL


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

BDL

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif

It isn't neccessarily the age of the one you ask but,the sincerity of the one doing the asking.

I started training cooks that became Chefs when I was 21. It still goes back to earning and giving respect. Don't bother looking it up " it's not in the culinary school reference books."

Just because I hire someone, doesn't mean I have to teach him how to make a bechamel. If he said he was a cook he should know how to make a roux and add milk and seasonings.

As for your term "chef school" it's in the same category as "amature chef " I have never seen one.And to just balance the scales, some of best food I ever eat came from an older Chef's kitchen and some of the worst from a younger so-called chef's kitchen.To each his own. "It's my dollar, my choice." I'll take experience over ego anytime./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

haha! I knew this thread would get a little attention.

This is exactly what I was talking about. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif

And there is ALWAYS more to learn. I'm sure the best french chef in the world might have trouble making dim sum.

That's why we talk to eachother and leach information.

Good stuff! And age has nothing to do with talent. Just experience. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

boar_d_laze said:


> Nothing against age and experience, but some of the best food I'm seeing comes out of kitchens run -- and well run -- by execs and owner/execs in their late twenties and early thirties.
> 
> BDL
> 
> This is an important statement to support. We as "old timers" should feel an enormous sense of pride to see the development of our art/craft in not only the USA but world wide. If it were not for my mentors early on I would not have had the foundation needed to be successful in my chosen profession as I move into my 31st year of professional cooking. Well groomed chefs and restaurants do not happen by accident. I am so pleased to see the awesome young chefs flourishing in our industry, and I am so proud to know that in some small way I was able to take some under my wing and help develop the next generation of culinary professional.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Well I still like to think of myself as part of this old boys club ...

welcome back


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

To me, as a professional in the business for more then 35 years, and with that many years of experiences, it is incumbent on me to teach what I know, share with others the pitfalls and offer solutions. Knowledge is something to be shared.

When I went to work in the industry there were far too many Chefs who would turn their back to you, lift up there arms and shoulders so you could not look over them to see how they did something. 

Many of the older Chefs were of the attitude that they had to go through the school of hard knocks so everybody else does too. They were some of the hardest Chefs to work for but, i believe, that it helped me become the pro I am today.

We always learn from the ones we hate.


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

By way of analogy...

In NZ we have Maori and Pakeha....indigenous and white folk with culturally different descision making processes...consensus vs majority rules.

If you ask a question of a class of kids the smartest Pakeha are inclined to jam their hand up then look over their shoulder to see who they are 'competing' with... a group of Maori, down the back might confer then one will casually raise his hand....

Pakeha though I am, I'm inclined to the latter...

I say share it all and let skill and hard work sought it out! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, if we're going back to how we ourselves learned -- it's my experience that the best advice is preceded by a thrown spoon; accompanied by a stream of drunken, German invective; and completed with, "Verstanzen, kollitch boy?  Du got dat?"

Du got dat?

BDL


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2010)

Titomike,

I could've told you about the tomato sauce and I just started Culinary School a year ago... but I learned that from an old German Chef in his 70's.

BDL,

school actually prepared me just fine for the pro kitchen, in fact my first job involved far more standing around doing nothing than I was used to. I did learn a lot of useless stuff for the job, but I like to learn that stuff... additionally I am learning food management stuff, so if i am tossed into the exec chef position one day, i can actually handle that. its an interesting hierarchy... you cook cook cook for most of your life, then sit behind a desk. if all you know is cooking, that may be a rough transition.

and age matters... taste buds start to go... maybe you don't care as much anymore... maybe your food is too classic... my fav restaurants are also from younger chef's.


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Titomike said:


> By way of analogy...
> 
> In NZ we have Maori and Pakeha....indigenous and white folk with culturally different descision making processes...consensus vs majority rules.
> 
> ...


That's so cool...your a Kiwi I never noticed on your threads ....what a wonderfull place. My children's father is from Auckland..and we bungy jumped there!...Food is soooooooo expensive!


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## rsteve (May 3, 2007)

caterchef said:


> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gifIf you listen to some of the culinary instructors today they will say, " There is nothing being done today that hasn't been done before." Well, don't you believe it. There are things being done today that have never been done before, and there are things that we use to do that we should be doing today, that we aren't./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


*And there are things that we did in the past, that we should have never done and shouldn't try to do again. When I think about the fact that the statin drugs like Lipitor, Mevacor, Crestor, Zocor...are prescribed by the millions because of the American epidemic of heart disease, due to atherosclerosis, and how we used to slowly poach fish in goose fat, my own LDL numbers spike. There's a tremendous amount we old timers can and should learn from the youth in the industry. We have to listen when they're talking, too.*


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## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

Yeah, I agree. 

It goes way beyond just the aspect of cooking and food itself.  When relative to health especially.

Techniques change, most for the better when you think about that for a second.

So many layers to what we do....


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

Huy Bui said:


> Titomike,
> 
> I could've told you about the tomato sauce and I just started Culinary School a year ago... but I learned that from an old German Chef in his 70's.
> 
> and age matters... taste buds start to go... maybe you don't care as much anymore... maybe your food is too classic... my fav restaurants are also from younger chef's.


Yeah...I've always used sugar 'cos that's how my mum taught me. Now I have a Filipino household they're just used to sweeter sauces. What surprised me was he described it as something Grandma would do....

I was conflicted...I'm supposed to go against an Italian Grandmother's treatment of tomatoes! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/surprised.gif

My own take relates to 80-90% of 'taste' being smell leaving the 5 basics...so I 'round' out a dish, eg aioli, with a little sweetness as you would season 'cos you can't demonsrate balance/dominance/contrast without the thing your dominating/contrasting...but that's just my design training, maybe my buds _are_ past it or _too _classic! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Titomike said:


> Yeah...I've always used sugar 'cos that's how my mum taught me. Now I have a Filipino household they're just used to sweeter sauces. What surprised me was he described it as something Grandma would do....
> 
> I was conflicted...I'm supposed to go against an Italian Grandmother's treatment of tomatoes! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/surprised.gif
> 
> My own take relates to 80-90% of 'taste' being smell leaving the 5 basics...so I 'round' out a dish, eg aioli, with a little sweetness as you would season 'cos you can't demonsrate balance/dominance/contrast without the thing your dominating/contrasting...but that's just my design training, maybe my buds _are_ past it or _too _classic! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


I can't ignore this, sorry ......SUGAR in tomato sauce !!!!..say it isn't so.....please OMG! The Italian mamas who invented "THE SAUCE" are rolling in their graves!


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

RSteve said:


> *And there are things that we did in the past, that we should have never done and shouldn't try to do again. When I think about the fact that the statin drugs like Lipitor, Mevacor, Crestor, Zocor...are prescribed by the millions because of the American epidemic of heart disease, due to atherosclerosis, and how we used to slowly poach fish in goose fat, my own LDL numbers spike. There's a tremendous amount we old timers can and should learn from the youth in the industry. We have to listen when they're talking, too.*


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif I don't understand where you are coming from "this is a food forum" not a drug forum.

I was refering to making our own stocks and cooking fresh vegetables instead of frozen.

Where I took my apprenticeship in a 300 room hotel the only freezer we had was in the pantry for ice cream. When we had to do an ice carving it was about an hour before the event that the ice was delivered. and I have never heard of poaching fish in goose fat. "yucK"

And the only drugs we had in the kitchen was aspirin for a headache.

When I do listen when they are talking they are usually "asking for more money or time off "or"can I have a steak for lunch or when are we going to air condition the kitchen"

If you are refering to the younger so-called chefs with their "cookbooks and degrees" I think they still have got a lot to learn yet, although some are trying, so are "too smart already"/img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't think talent has an age. There are both young and old people out there who have tons of talent in this field. This business is all about constant learning. If you don't continue to learn, you will be left in the dust. What I do see in some of the younger people though is a penchant for "extreme" in their flavoring. For instance, I like a dish with spice to have a slow burn on the back of my throat. Most spicy dishes produced now burn my lips and tongue so bad I can't taste anything for hours, so I avoid these dishes when I am out. There doesn't seem to be any place for subtle flavoring left in today's cuisine. That's why I always think a "taste" should be at least three bites. That way as the flavor lingers on your tongue, you can tell if it's too salty etc. for someone eating a whole portion. I make a soup that's more or less a thin shrimp etouffee. The first bite doesn't taste like all that much. As you swallow, you get that slow burn I mentioned earlier. Your tongue starts to pick up the different flavors and you're thinking, wait, let me taste that again. The flavors start to build, and the heat increases in the back of your throat. By the third bite you're hooked and start to really shovel it in. Customers love that soup when we have it. It doesn't give up everything it has in the first bite.


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

gypsy2727 said:


> I can't ignore this, sorry ......SUGAR in tomato sauce !!!!..say it isn't so.....please OMG! The Italian mamas who invented "THE SAUCE" are rolling in their graves!


Me neither....do you usually ignore me?
Ummm... well... aah......yes! Is there a rule?

Perhaps, he was just denegrating grandmothers in general but...

http://www.epicureantable.com/articles/atomato.htm

or

http://goingglutenfree.blogspot.com/2007/07/chinese-sweet-tomatoes.html

They are a fruit after all.


gypsy2727 said:


> That's so cool...your a Kiwi I never noticed on your threads ....what a wonderfull place. My children's father is from Auckland..and we bungy jumped there!...Food is soooooooo expensive!


I _am_ a kiwi.

it _is_....
Wow !.....?. ...and you got _pregnant_? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif

_YES!.... _Ed, was saying 2.99 for chix brst I think I'm paying ...USD 4.45!


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I can't ignore this, sorry ......SUGAR in tomato sauce !!!!..say it isn't so_

Where do these "rules" originate? The Sicillian grandmother from whom I learned to make red sauce always included sugar, so as to prevent bitterness.

Maybe you want to tell her she was wrong? Not me.


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## durangojo (Jul 30, 2007)

within my sicilian family, we used cinnamon, and red wine, which in turn sweetens the sauce while cooking, much like sugar, well wine is sugar really...never met  2  italian families who didn't argue about how to make the 'sauce' and who made it best....i remember very loud vocal arguments, in very rapid italian, over almost every sunday dinner....

after reading this very interesting thread, albeit  at times maybe a tad too much testosterone,(joke), it got me to wondering...where are our mentors now, our past influences?...forgione, greer, waxman,lydia,tower, jean-louis, waters..not only did they influence me, but they influenced a whole country...a whole food revolution/evolution began...they made food interesting and fun and not so 'uptight', for lack of a better term.....are they still cooking? teaching(i hope), living the pura vida somewhere? we all need to do our part to teach, nuture and share...we've got to engage in each other and share our ideas...

my two cents,

joey


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## gypsy2727 (Mar 9, 2010)

Titomike said:


> Me neither....do you usually ignore me?
> Ummm... well... aah......yes! Is there a rule?
> 
> Perhaps, he was just denegrating grandmothers in general but...
> ...


LOL....touche...I don't think I have ignored you...and yes you Kiwis have a charm about you...that gets girls..... well in the family way...hahahahaha /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I don't understand the whole sugar sweetening the sauce concept...considering tomatoes are sweet ...depends on the ones you use. Basil is sweet...I only sweeten with natural vegetables and herbs in the cooking process like carrots, onion, sweet red pepper.I have worked for Italians for years ...Banquet Halls, Caterers to Fine Dining. Notta one used sugar.

Whatever makes your boat float I say do what works if ya lika the sugar...add the sugar ..no recipe is set in stone.

I say make it just like mama used to make and you canna notta go wrong..if ya know whatta mean ...lol


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2010)

well you do what floats your boat and makes your guests happy... i ate at a horrendous Thai place that goes far too heavy on the sugar, in my and my families opinion, but a family came up after their meal and told the chef how great everything was... and the restaurant is successful.


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## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

Sugar should be subtle! Especially in red sauce. Red wine is the way to go in my book. Maybe a little dash of brown.

I'm frickin' Irish as hell though, so what do I know. My sauce is always awesome though.

And greyeaglem - I totally agree about the heat factor. I don't like other cooks even controlling the heat in my food, so I never get hot stuff unless I try somebody's dish first. And I LOVE hot stuff.

I love this thread. I knew it would get great feedback. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/drinkbeer.gif


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2010)

well i dont add sugar, i just cook it for hours until it turns sweet.. and its a sweet that you dont get by simply adding sugar, plenty sweet for me though. best tomato sauce i ever had. like a lot of things i have eaten in my life, i didn't really like tomato sauce until i made it. problem is i dont have time to make it... if i want a pizza, i'm not about to make my own crust and sauce, i just dial up a pizza place and order light sauce.

i love spicy food, so i always try what people consider to be the hottest... usually it is pretty lacking, but thai food and hot wings sometimes get it right. i am the ghost pepper hot wing eating champ at a wing place, but that is a bit much for every day eating... i prefer just a tad less spicy. when i cook for anyone, i keep the heat to a minimum... just enough to add another dimension to the dish. of course, some people cant even handle black pepper, so you gotta be careful.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Also, cheeseNbacon, I love your screen name. If you were cheeseNbaconNbread crumbs, we would all have to bow down as that is the holy trinity for covering up/ fixing stuff. Didn't turn out right; doesn't taste good? No problem, add some cheese and bacon and you have a hit. Doesn't look so good? Throw some bread crumbs on top, put it back in the oven to brown and they won't be able to load it on their plates fast enough. Have something that should qualify for Federal disaster assistance? No problem. That's why God made bacon, cheese and bread crumbs. Load 'em all on, and youl'll get your own food show. I was at a friend's house one time, and in the process of checking on the Thanksgiving pumpkin pies, her mother managed to dump one upside down on the oven door. I voiced my dismay, and she said "Shhh, don't worry about it, I'll fix it and they'll never know." I couldn't see how, but I had also never seen a true genius at work. She shovelled the filling off the oven door back into the pie, covered the top with walnuts and then sprinkled some sugar over the whole mess. She was right. You never saw such a good looking pie. It was the first pie they dug into, and anybody who didn't get a piece whined about it. Now I know why God made walnuts. Oreos too. You can hide anything under a layer of crushed Oreos.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Sugar, no sugar \,whatever taste good and whatever you and your clientel are happy with . There is no right or wrong way here.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_well i dont add sugar, i just cook it for hours until it turns sweet.. _

A matter of choice, Huy Bui, which I have no argument with.

What I'm having trouble with is the dogmatism portrayed by some posters. The shock they exhibit if anybody does something which violates the culinary rules they live by, and which, in their minds, were written on high in stone.

The fact is, not only is the addition of sugar to tomato sauce common, it's not even confined to North America. For example, Michelin Star holder Nino Graziano is just one of many Italian chefs who include sugar in their tomato sauce.


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## titomike (May 20, 2009)

Gypsy ...glad you enjoyed that one....hoped you would! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif

With the tomato/sugar thing I'm not shy to adjust with it if the dish needs it (or that particular can /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif ) or _not_ if I'm using a couli to cut the richness of a dish. Or if going off reservation with chilli, ginger, lemongrass etc. some palm sugar might find its way in /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif.

I do stand by the 'rounding out' thing as with mayos. I have a pet peeve about hollandaise made with unreduced vinegar or even just lemon juice (no depth)...I use a 2:1 wine rdctn for the rounded sweetness and finish with lemon juice. .....no, I don't add sugar, H.B.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2010)

it all comes down to personal preference... i agree people shouldn't get worked up about the use of sugar/ not. if everyone had the same taste, then sure i can see there being hard rules to cooking... but that is not the case. 

i actually don't reduce vinegar (so no peppercorns) for hollandaise and skip lemon altogether. i never liked hollandaise and making it the proper way did not taste good to me, nor anyone else in the room. so i made it my way and it tasted good to everyone including my chef-instructor. (and it was easier, which is always a bonus) from then on, i always made it that way and had nothing but praise. i just hit it with white pepper to make up for lack of peppercorns and it turns out i need far less salt than if i reduced the vinegar. still im no fan of hollandaise and i am glad i could skip those calories and fat, so i can indulge on pork belly and foie gras, instead. lol.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I've seen it done with sugar, with honey, loaded with carmeized onions, with Parmesan rinds, with Reggiano rinds, with Prosciutto rinds, with.....Meh, whatever works, works.

That being said when I was washing dishes waaay back when, it was common for the Greek restaurants to add a stick of cinnamon in the tomato sauce.  If done correctly, it does add a nice touch, don't particularily care for it personally, but it is kind of nice.


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## caterchef (Oct 12, 2009)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif I don't understand why we are making such a big deal over a little sugar.

If you have put enough in it that you can taste it, you have put too much.

It's only supposed to take the edge off the acid in the tomato.

The same as white pepper, if you can taste it,you have put too much.

You should only be able to tell if it is not in it, the same as salt.

A little sugar also awakens the taste buds, like the glutamate in MSG.

As I said in another post, I keep a gallon jug of simple syrup on line for that purpose.

labled Chef's LFE for "Liquid Flavor Enhancer" spiked with a touch of vinegar

to keep the bartender out of it and a little Egg Shade in case they loose the label./img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


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## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

waiting...


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## cheesenbacon (Jul 19, 2010)

greyeaglem said:


> Also, cheeseNbacon, I love your screen name


Thanks man!

And you know what? A little sugar shouldn't mean a thing... ESPECIALLY when it comes to a damn red sauce. Do whatever you want.

Throw a cake in it if it tastes good. I don't like cake though....


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