# So sad....



## chefross

Recently, someone asked me how one becomes a Chef.
I explained that the term simply means chief in French and the name is given to anyone that oversees and manages a kitchen generally.
This led me back to one of our past threads concerning certification and licensing.

I find it curious that when we need a plumber, electrician, or even a hairstylist, we look for one that is reliable, honest, expert and we know they are licensed by the state, and have a certification stating they are knowledgeable about their trade.
Yet why do we trust our lives (literally) when we dine out or take in, to someone we know nothing about who cooks our food?
Ever think about that?
WOW!


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## chefbillyb

In most cases fast or casual dining monopolize the culinary landscape. If you're worried about trusting your life with unskilled or unqualified people look at these places. The one place that sticks out to me is Chipotle Grill. They pushed the limit of having untrained people handling and preparing food with little knowledge. They just have to many items that go from raw to cooked by these people. Then you have the crossover and handling of the food being a contamination problem. 
I don't worry about fine dining. The Chef s/b responsible enough to train his/her employees to prepare their food as they would. After all, the cooks in the kitchen s/b an extension of the chefs vision of quality and presentation. I never had any of my cooks work my front line that didn't have my vision. Maybe that's why I worked the line so much.......ChefBillyB


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## Seoul Food

Exactly. As the fast casual style of chains and franchises start to dominate the general market more and more, I believe this will undoubtedly lead to more cases of food poisoning and other issues like that. Maybe if this trend continues long enough some kind of shift will happen that will either force these types of establishments to change how they operate or more and more people will gravitate towards a more upscale dining experience.

On a side note to the question about other trades, I believe that is in part to where your location is as well. Where I am only certain parts of the state require a license while others do not for some reason. And I've seen plenty of tradeskills people including in food service that may have had a piece of paper saying one thing that was very different than their actual capabilities.


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## sgsvirgil

In my experience, a piece of paper does not always ensure quality or safety standards. Point in fact, how many culinary school graduates have we encountered in our careers who disregarded safety protocols and health codes? 

The only thing that will hold back this tide is the dedication and professionalism of those of us whose work ethic demands that we properly train our employees. To a very large extent, the food industry is a "self policing" profession and we are its guarantors of safety and quality. When training new people and even our veterans, this must be lesson #1. 

Cheers!


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## foodpump

No.... I think the food poisonings have/ will happen at mega processing plants. Granted, there are poisonings at restaurants which is 99% due to ignorance, but the majority of poisonings happen at processing plants.

Looking back at the hospitality scene 40 and 50 years ago, there just weren’t that many restaurants per person in most cities. A lot of people would brew a thermos of coffee at home to take to work, schools had 90-120 minute lunch breaks so kids could go home for lunch.

About 12 years ago we bought a unit in a new building and proceeded to turn it into a bakery and chocolate shop. A guy leased the next door unit and sunk 60 grand into infrastructure to turn it into a bubble tea place. After two years he folded, the next guy leased it and tried to make a go with Thai food, The unit only has 100 amps of juice, no gas, and no way to install ventilation equipment. That lasted about a year, then the next guy started a Bolivian meat pie place. That lasted about two years then a local leased it and turned it into a pie shoppe. Another two years and it’s a bubble tea place again. It’s latest reincarnation is a Poke place.

The point I’m trying to make is that a large chunk of restaurants are started by people who don’t know what they’re doing. They can’t make money, so the old strip-tease of “ how low can you go?” starts. Wages are one of the largest expenses, so they are slashed., family is coerced into working. Convenience products are used—not because they’re cheap, but because relatively little labour is needed. And the public? They LOVE it, they’ll buy the cheapest they can find, and look forward to when the business folds, because it means something new.

It could be argued that chain restaurants fit into the above model. The franchisee buys into the franchise because they have no idea of how to operate a restaurant, everything from purchasing to H.r. to promotion is done by head office. Franchises make a lot of their money with their um...(cough) “signature items” which are frozen convenience products of which the franchisee is obliged to buy. Thus ovoid ing the need for cooks who can actually cook.

In most parts of Europe you need a license to operate a restaurant. This qualification does not come easy, even with a hospitality background you need to take a 6 mths course and write a series of tests. Coincidence or not, restaurants in Europe tend to operate longer, and cooks, who take apprenticeships and meet qualifications can actually earn a living wage

Now add into this “ melange” the fact that the U.S. has no standards for what a cook should know or be capable of. So how does a culinary school design a curriculum for a standard that doesn’t exist? Most people laugh when I tell them in most parts of Europe a server has to take a 2yr. apprenticeship. I don’t think it’s its funny.

The final seasoning to this “melange” is the tipping issue. More often than not a server is “ mercenary”, hired for a period, having no relevant experience, scooping up tips, then leaving to go back to school. The cook, who is responsible for 50% of the dining experience is not tipped—either by the customer or the server, and figures out fairly quickly that cooking is not sustainable.

Meh, let free enterprise sort it out.
Well, let’s look at Marriott. They own a lot of hotels and manage even more other hotels. Ya’d think a large employer like that could influence culinary schools in how they prepare students for the work force. Have they? Ya’d think they could organize or help organize a national standard for cooks so they could base their wages on it. Have they? Ya’d think they could get the whole tipping issue out in the open and get discussions going. Have they! Perhaps another large employer should do this? Taco Bell or Olive Garden?

So what?
Well, if you’re smart you’d figure out that hospitality makes up a big chunk of the tourism revenue for major cities. Gov’ts can invents in airports, ferry terminals, amusement parks, golf courses, Now, an animal is most viscous when it protects its food source. Yeah yeah, businesses pay taxes. But that’s like saying Jordan plays basketball.. Businesses GENERATE taxes, businesses COLLECT taxes. Who’d ya think takes a chunk off your pay check and sends it to the taxman? Free of charge? Ya’d think the various govt’s would protect their tax sources, do they?

So I’ll get off my milk crate now. I hope Bodistsava or whatever his name is is reading this, before he tells some else to start up a food truck business....


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## peachcreek

I am glad I have had 0 interest during my long and continuing restaurant adventure to never call myself a chef. I have spent countless years learning how to be a better cook. I think of my time as getting paid to show up to practice every day. For that I am still grateful! I see the restaurant business as an ongoing shit show of up to the moment contrivance. For people who love to cook and wish to do it for others? My heart goes out to you. May you be happy with the choices made as you move through the culinary world. 
As far as my feeling of the state of cooking in America? I don't stress out. I just stay out of those kinds of places!


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## Seoul Food

foodpump said:


> No.... I think the food poisonings have/ will happen at mega processing plants. Granted, there are poisonings at restaurants which is 99% due to ignorance, but the majority of poisonings happen at processing plants.
> 
> Looking back at the hospitality scene 40 and 50 years ago, there just weren't that many restaurants per person in most cities. A lot of people would brew a thermos of coffee at home to take to work, schools had 90-120 minute lunch breaks so kids could go home for lunch.
> 
> About 12 years ago we bought a unit in a new building and proceeded to turn it into a bakery and chocolate shop. A guy leased the next door unit and sunk 60 grand into infrastructure to turn it into a bubble tea place. After two years he folded, the next guy leased it and tried to make a go with Thai food, The unit only has 100 amps of juice, no gas, and no way to install ventilation equipment. That lasted about a year, then the next guy started a Bolivian meat pie place. That lasted about two years then a local leased it and turned it into a pie shoppe. Another two years and it's a bubble tea place again. It's latest reincarnation is a Poke place.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that a large chunk of restaurants are started by people who don't know what they're doing. They can't make money, so the old strip-tease of " how low can you go?" starts. Wages are one of the largest expenses, so they are slashed., family is coerced into working. Convenience products are used-not because they're cheap, but because relatively little labour is needed. And the public? They LOVE it, they'll buy the cheapest they can find, and look forward to when the business folds, because it means something new.
> 
> It could be argued that chain restaurants fit into the above model. The franchisee buys into the franchise because they have no idea of how to operate a restaurant, everything from purchasing to H.r. to promotion is done by head office. Franchises make a lot of their money with their um...(cough) "signature items" which are frozen convenience products of which the franchisee is obliged to buy. Thus ovoid ing the need for cooks who can actually cook.
> 
> In most parts of Europe you need a license to operate a restaurant. This qualification does not come easy, even with a hospitality background you need to take a 6 mths course and write a series of tests. Coincidence or not, restaurants in Europe tend to operate longer, and cooks, who take apprenticeships and meet qualifications can actually earn a living wage
> 
> Now add into this " melange" the fact that the U.S. has no standards for what a cook should know or be capable of. So how does a culinary school design a curriculum for a standard that doesn't exist? Most people laugh when I tell them in most parts of Europe a server has to take a 2yr. apprenticeship. I don't think it's its funny.
> 
> The final seasoning to this "melange" is the tipping issue. More often than not a server is " mercenary", hired for a period, having no relevant experience, scooping up tips, then leaving to go back to school. The cook, who is responsible for 50% of the dining experience is not tipped-either by the customer or the server, and figures out fairly quickly that cooking is not sustainable.
> 
> Meh, let free enterprise sort it out.
> Well, let's look at Marriott. They own a lot of hotels and manage even more other hotels. Ya'd think a large employer like that could influence culinary schools in how they prepare students for the work force. Have they? Ya'd think they could organize or help organize a national standard for cooks so they could base their wages on it. Have they? Ya'd think they could get the whole tipping issue out in the open and get discussions going. Have they! Perhaps another large employer should do this? Taco Bell or Olive Garden?
> 
> So what?
> Well, if you're smart you'd figure out that hospitality makes up a big chunk of the tourism revenue for major cities. Gov'ts can invents in airports, ferry terminals, amusement parks, golf courses, Now, an animal is most viscous when it protects its food source. Yeah yeah, businesses pay taxes. But that's like saying Jordan plays basketball.. Businesses GENERATE taxes, businesses COLLECT taxes. Who'd ya think takes a chunk off your pay check and sends it to the taxman? Free of charge? Ya'd think the various govt's would protect their tax sources, do they?
> 
> So I'll get off my milk crate now. I hope Bodistsava or whatever his name is is reading this, before he tells some else to start up a food truck business....


While I agree with most of what you said I would like to just add some counter points for a few things. The first is about restaurants in Europe versus the States. While I believe that perhaps the restaurants there may be around longer some of that I would think would be due to the tourist industry and the overall attitude towards food and hospitality in general of Europeans versus Americans. Also you would have to take into account percentages as a whole as America and its restaurants versus Europe and theirs is not an even numbers game. And while areas here are propping up casual chains there are plenty of finer dining established places around the country.

The other areas I want to touch on are the curriculum for cooks. At least in my experience the program was structured in a way to give different levels of understanding from fundamentals to fine detailed skills and was generally based off of teachings that were a consensus from chefs and their peers. While I understand the point you are making I do not think it is the best course of action to start having the government decide what cooks need to know and how to achieve that knowledge.

The last point I wanted to talk about was the example you gave of the Marriott. Sure, they would benefit from a more educated work force out of the bag but I would venture to guess they have developed their own training methods and requirements to suite their needs. If they have to train them at the premises after hire I don't see why they would try and invest in training people in the industry as a whole who may never work there. Not to mention the needs of this establishment or part of industry will not always be the same as another so who's training and requirements receive preference?

All in all I think if we were to go towards mandated skills requirements it would have to be at a local or state level. Federally mandating it would be a logistical nightmare.


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## foodpump

O.k., regarding culinary curriculum. Imagine for a second you are designing curriculum for plumbers, yet your state has no plumbing code. How do you proceed? How do you anticipate what employers want? What culinary schools refuse to acknowledge is that employers want experience. This is entirely possible to build into a curriculum, but which school does it?

So you don’t want gov’t laying out the standard for what a cook should know. Yet that’s exactly what happens with other trades— plumbers, gas fitters, electricians, car mechanics, etc. If your insurance finds out that the guy who did your brakes wasn’t licensed, or the guy who repaired your furnace wasn’t licensed, they tell you you’re not covered should something happen. 

So the big question is, if gov’t won’t provide qualifications for cooks, who will? Private industry has had well over 100 years to do something, and the only change they lobbied for and brought in was ‘ tipping wages” for the servers.

Marriott built a mega project here over two years ago, their kitchen staffing is still only 75% complete. They don’t want to use the Cdn gov’t qualification of red seal cook, and won’t pay the going rate of what other hotels pay qualified cooks. Which is why they are still looking for staff. They can pull senior staff from all over the world no problem, but it makes no sense to pull staff from another country or even another city to work a line cook’s job. Which is why they are still looking for staff...

Again, using other trades, you need qualifications to base a pay scale on. Why should a cook invest money in school and time on the floor if they can never break the $25/hr barrier? Compare that to what a freshly minted plumber will make on his/ her first day on the job, and it ain’t minimum wage....

The Cdn govt qualification for cooks is federal, but each province decides what should be on the test, and how applicants should be tested. It’s a nightmare.. Some provinces only require. 200-odd multiple choice test. Others have a two day battery of tests and a 6 hr live cooking test. Night and day. But it’s better than nothing.


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## chefross

I was in culinary school in 1973. My first class started at 5:30 am where I was a cook in the schools cafeteria. I learned how to make 100 gallons of soup or 50 gallons of chili. 
I also was exposed to the various equipment and spent many weeks simply peeling, chopping, and slicing. I was part of a team of students and we rotated our positions for the entire semester.
The rest of the schooling also included, hands on work in bakery, fine dining, butchering and many other sciences.
My question is, if this is still the way students are taught?
They should be graduating with, at least, some kind of grasp of the kitchen. .

Foodpumps' analogy was spot on and I found myself nodding with each sentence I read.
I worked for Marriott and they did have an educational arm that developed scholarships for employees to go to culinary school. They did have those "recipe cards" for their food service facilities to follow. I even met the corporate Chef who wrote them. Like them or hate them, at least, it was a move forward.


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## Seoul Food

foodpump said:


> O.k., regarding culinary curriculum. Imagine for a second you are designing curriculum for plumbers, yet your state has no plumbing code. How do you proceed? How do you anticipate what employers want? What culinary schools refuse to acknowledge is that employers want experience. This is entirely possible to build into a curriculum, but which school does it?
> 
> So you don't want gov't laying out the standard for what a cook should know. Yet that's exactly what happens with other trades- plumbers, gas fitters, electricians, car mechanics, etc. If your insurance finds out that the guy who did your brakes wasn't licensed, or the guy who repaired your furnace wasn't licensed, they tell you you're not covered should something happen.
> 
> So the big question is, if gov't won't provide qualifications for cooks, who will? Private industry has had well over 100 years to do something, and the only change they lobbied for and brought in was ' tipping wages" for the servers.
> 
> Marriott built a mega project here over two years ago, their kitchen staffing is still only 75% complete. They don't want to use the Cdn gov't qualification of red seal cook, and won't pay the going rate of what other hotels pay qualified cooks. Which is why they are still looking for staff. They can pull senior staff from all over the world no problem, but it makes no sense to pull staff from another country or even another city to work a line cook's job. Which is why they are still looking for staff...
> 
> Again, using other trades, you need qualifications to base a pay scale on. Why should a cook invest money in school and time on the floor if they can never break the $25/hr barrier? Compare that to what a freshly minted plumber will make on his/ her first day on the job, and it ain't minimum wage....
> 
> The Cdn govt qualification for cooks is federal, but each province decides what should be on the test, and how applicants should be tested. It's a nightmare.. Some provinces only require. 200-odd multiple choice test. Others have a two day battery of tests and a 6 hr live cooking test. Night and day. But it's better than nothing.


While I understand the point you are making, in my mind the comparison of several trades is similar but not entirely apples to apples. You asked why a cook should invest in school if they cannot break a pay ceiling in essence. I would argue that it would not be most culinary students aspirations to go to culinary school simply to become a line cook for the rest of their career. Culinary school is there for teaching sound fundamentals and skills, and it is up to the individual to take that knowledge and progress with it. In that aspect I believe there are already standards set in place of what a cook should know coming out of culinary school.

When bringing up codes and standards set forth by the government for other skills trades I would also argue that we in the culinary field also have these in the way of sanitation codes. Places that do not operate sufficiently are dealt with as would a shoddy trades person.

The point about pay gaps between other trade skills also has some finer details I believe like one, trade skills have tier systems usually like you would see as position tiers in a kitchen. A certified master electrician is obviously going to make more than a line cook, but may be more in line with an executive chef. The other item to consider is that gap in available skilled workers. At least here, there is a huge gap of skilled workers in the end years of their career and new trainees, while the food industry has been pumping out recruits like a factory (largely in part to tv shows I believe). Like with anything involving supply and demand, the demand for skilled trades people outside the culinary field on a whole (I realize we struggle with this internally) is higher than the supply as opposed to our field, again as a whole and position depending.

As far at the Marriott in Canada, I don't live there and have no experience to talk about with it but I would just ask if forcing a company to hire a government deemed acceptable worker is the way that particular building will be fully staffed, can you say with a certainty that the facility will operate significantly more efficiently than an similar place where that requirement is not mandated? I am just wondering at what point on the data graphs a government certificate will surpass industry experience.


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## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> I was in culinary school in 1973. My first class started at 5:30 am where I was a cook in the schools cafeteria. I learned how to make 100 gallons of soup or 50 gallons of chili.
> I also was exposed to the various equipment and spent many weeks simply peeling, chopping, and slicing. I was part of a team of students and we rotated our positions for the entire semester.
> The rest of the schooling also included, hands on work in bakery, fine dining, butchering and many other sciences.
> My question is, if this is still the way students are taught?
> They should be graduating with, at least, some kind of grasp of the kitchen. .
> 
> Foodpumps' analogy was spot on and I found myself nodding with each sentence I read.
> I worked for Marriott and they did have an educational arm that developed scholarships for employees to go to culinary school. They did have those "recipe cards" for their food service facilities to follow. I even met the corporate Chef who wrote them. Like them or hate them, at least, it was a move forward.


I graduated a while ago but the system was basically set up with progressing levels of skills training, than to things like stocks and soups. You then went on to meat and fish fabrication, product identification and then to basic kitchens. From there it was cuisine specific kitchens along with a externship and some time and baking and pastry. You would end out the training with mock serving, and then rotating front and back of the house of real restaurants. I am sure I am missing some things but the point is you are taught a lot of basic and refined skills and I can't imagine that the basic standards of knowledge for the field would be so drastically different between culinary schools that a government would have to set standards.

I understand what foodpump is saying about those in the field that have not had any formal training being akin to a contractor who is unlicensed that is doing work for you. But I still do not believe it is a direct comparison. I believe that is in part to the creativity side of culinary that is not found in other trades as much. You could have a person who has no formal training but is a creative genius with food open up a business but you plumber is going to do his job based on codes and simple math and working mechanics. There is no creative outlet for these other trades and cutting that down with mandatory regulations and training would be a detriment to our industry.

Plus on my last and least important note, I don't want the government telling me what to do and having any more power than it already does.


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## french fries

It's funny I should stumble upon that thread, I just had that the same discussion with a friend here in France: you need a state diploma to exercise as a hair dresser but even though the corresponding state diploma exists for culinary arts it's not required to cook professionally or even to open a restaurant.


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## foodpump

Hi Seoulfood,

I understand many are unwilling to agree with certification in the kitchens, but I don’t understand why.

I also don’t understand why you feel qualifications would limit a cook’s creativity. In my case, and in many of my colleagues, qualifications have upped the game not only in creativity, but in utilizing new techniques and ingredients. So please elaborate why you feel qualifications would hinder creativity.

Look, both you and I have a driver’s license—a certification, if you like. This does not guarantee that I won’t blow through a stop sign, nor does it mean I will follow the 4-way stop procedure. Yet both you and I would be reluctant to drive in “other countries” where a drivers license is obtained by bribing an official or bought at an open air bazaar. What the license does is guarantee that I can’t claim ignorance if caught not following the 4-way stop procedure. Which is why I can’t get insurance without a valid driver’s.

I work p/t at a caterer’s. They pay x$ for normal prep work, and y$ for those with a valid driver’s license, and z$ for those with a class 5 driver’s that enables you to drive trucks over 5 tons or vehicles with air brakes. Most of the trades will base their salaries on qualifications, and many of the trades provide their own schools, or work closely with trade schools for their members to achieve higher qualifications. 

The common complaints in kitchens are that you can’t find good cooks, the ones that you do don’t know anything, and the schools don’t know what’s going on
Well, anyone with brains has figured out that kitchens pay crap, and they go to other industries. Granted there are a lot of cracks and crevices, and there are jobs that actually pay well, but these are far and few. Union places do pay better, but these positions are based on seniority and not merit, so you could wait years working p/t until some chronic alcoholic finally throws in the towel.

The schools don’t have a qualification for their students to achieve
so anything they teach is fair game, with no official body to hold them accountable for what they teach.

The above problems can be addressed with qualifications—-something most other trades have done. Which is why you’re paying a plumber 75$/ hr to fix your hot water heater.

I feel you’re quite wrong about trades and creativity. All trades (and this includes cooking) rely on a) materials, b) techniques, and c) budget. A cook uses skills, techniques, and ingredient knowledge to exercise creativity, but s/he is governed by budget—a duck entree that is wonderfully executed and doesn’t sell is pretty much useless. A plumber can be extremely creative in how they utilize technology, techniques, and choice of material while meeting or exceeding budget or time allowances. You can’t have creativity until you can master the skills, techniques, and ingredient knowledge.

I also understand your reluctance to have a govt involved, I get that. But as I said before, the only thing our industry has done to further itself in the last 100 years has been to introduce tipping wages. And since the hospitality industry is one of the biggest-if not the biggest industry in terms of employees, shouldn’t a govt protect it—since it can’t protect itself?


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## sgsvirgil

The bottom line is that a piece of paper does not ensure anything. There are always going to be those who wander away from the code of professional conduct and standards regardless of whether or not that code is written. In other words, some lawyers who go to the best law schools still get disbarred. Some doctors who go to the best medical schools commit malpractice and some cooks and chefs who go to the best culinary schools still cut corners. Most, however, do not. It does not matter where they work. It can be in a hotel, fine dining, a fast food joint, a casual dining chain restaurant or a "mom-n-pops" diner. We have all encountered people in this profession who are willing to cut corners. I am happy to say that thanks to the self policing aspect of this industry, people like this tend to be labeled quickly. This is largely because kitchen employees in a city or town tend to know each other and they talk. So, if Joe Blow gets fired from a place for bad kitchen practices, it won't be long before everyone knows it. That doesn't guarantee he won't get hired somewhere. But, that's just the way it is. There are no laws that I am aware of that would legally prevent Joe Blow from working in a kitchen somewhere unlike the lawyer who is disbarred or a doctor whose license is revoked for malpractice. 

There's a great question posed in this thread: should the Federal Government get involved with enforcing standards? My answer to that is no. I think it would become a complete sh*t show and wildly expensive given the number of restaurants there are in the US. I think this sort of thing is best left up to the individual states and counties who generally have the resources and employees to at least maintain some sort of presence. 

Another good questions was asked: If there were no regulations or guidance, how would we train new employees or develop a curriculum for culinary school? Simple. The same way we teach our employees - by passing on what we have learned. The state sets forth the standards in terms of safety. We decide how that is applied to our day to day operations. There was a time when state health agencies didn't exist. So, how did cooks train their apprentices in the absence of written laws and codes? By passing along and enforcing good food handling skills and cooking techniques. Granted, over the years, those standards have changed with the advancements in medical knowledge and technology, i.e. bacteria, sanitation, refrigeration, preservation and so on. However, the responsibilities of the chef has not changed all that much. We still set and enforce the standards in our kitchens even those standards have changed over the years or are decided by codes and laws. We are still responsible for training our staff and making sure they meet these standards regardless of whether those standards are set by the state or by us. 

Cheers


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## chefbillyb

I'm not sure how you could set a standard for Chefs. I've seen many Chefs that couldn't polish the shoes of other chefs. I owned four Food services at the same time without even going to Culinary school. 
This is the kind of business that if you can do it, you got it. The proof is in the pudding. You can bulls-it all you want but your going to have to show your stuff pretty quick........


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## chefross

Okay.....all good points. My bottom line point would be that getting the government to set standards for restaurants would, in the end, thin out the field and only those that choose to follow the codes would remain. 
This doesn't necessarily mean that Mom and Pops would close either. 
Yes, even though you are certified and licensed, you can still break the rules. 
Plumbers and electricians screw up, as do lawyers and doctors. 
It's life. "Caveat Emptor." As you would with anything else.


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## chefbillyb

I ran a few homeless feedings over the years. It started when I volunteered to help. I figured I world peel potatoes for a few hours and take off. I got there and no one new what the heck was going on. The guy in charge handed me an apron and aid it's all yours. This was a feeding for 2000 people for Thanksgiving. Needless to say my few hours turned into three days.
The reason I bring this up is, a lot of food coming in, that was donated, was kind of sketchy. I roasted off a lot of turkeys but we also had people dropping them off. When someone walked back with a turkey I thanked them and when they left I ripped it apart. You would not believe how many raw/half cooked turkeys came through the door. So nothing got served from the public unless it passed the smell and sight test.
As far as Chefs in restaurants go, I think the Health Dept sets standards with inspections that s/b good enough to keep the public safe. Food service cards are issued after all employees pass a basic test on reheating, temps of foods, cross contamination and so on. The funny things is as a Chef/owner I never had a health card, Go figure.
Like I said, after seeing how the public cooked food for the homeless I would worry more about being invited out for a holiday meal.
We are talking about some kind of certification for Chefs. What would that actually accomplish ????????
If I go to a fine dining restaurant and the quality is like a Denny's I don't think that Chef will last very long. The public will decide if the Chef matches the Cuisine. A certification will only show what the chef knows on paper. If you have a Chef stage before he/she is hired that would show a bit more in real time...........The Best.....ChefBillyB

P.S. A famous person " In his own mind" once said " This Ain't Rocket Science"


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## foodpump

Hi chefbillyb,

As stated in each post I’ve written in this thread, certification for other trades does two things.

It provides a baseline for cook’s salaries.
I think everyone here can acknowledge that cooks are the worst paid tradespeople— which does nothing to attract new talent.

It provides a baseline for the culinary schools to design a curriculum.
I think everyone here acknowledges that the culinary schools do a poor job of preparing students for the workforce.


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## Seoul Food

foodpump said:


> Hi chefbillyb,
> 
> As stated in each post I've written in this thread, certification for other trades does two things.
> 
> It provides a baseline for cook's salaries.
> I think everyone here can acknowledge that cooks are the worst paid tradespeople- which does nothing to attract new talent.
> 
> It provides a baseline for the culinary schools to design a curriculum.
> I think everyone here acknowledges that the culinary schools do a poor job of preparing students for the workforce.


While I understand that food service would fall under the broader umbrella of trade skills labor I still do not think you can equally compare them with skills like plumbers and electricians. The reason these trades can get away with a $75/hr rate is because the average consumer does not need them that often. I also don't really want to set a standard for chef salaries as this should be dictated by locale, supply and demand, individual skill, ect. not a government mandated training.

I will concede that other trades can utilize creativity in problem solving but finding a creative way to pipe a toilet is not the same as being creative with a food dish in my opinion.

The other problem I have is that government run certification agencies have a (high in my opinion) chance of becoming overbearing and counter productive, not to mention somewhat corrupt. As soon as they figure out they can make money off of this it will be endless certifications and continuing education credits and license renewal fees and the like. While some higher paid chef positions may find the time and money for this type of stuff how is the basic line cook going to get the resources for it.

The big point for not having to have a certification lies I believe in the fact that while food poisoning can happen, we are not dealing with medical issues like disease treatment, electrical or gas issues that could kill someone, or CLD trucking that could also end in death. In short the risks associated with our field do not line up with others which may have something to do with the other fields requirements for education and certification.

Like some others have mentioned as well we have internal policing from health departments, fellow colleagues and training institutions. I don't think the pros of forcing government certification out weight the cons for the industry and the individuals at this time.


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## chefbillyb

I've had hundreds of cooks over the years work with me. I don't know any that said they wanted to be a cook all their lives. In many cases these are stopping points or stepping stones in a young persons career. If you make it to difficult you won't have anyone cooking. In fact in many cases if you put to much bulls-it on the cooks the'll say screw it. It's up to the Chef to train their cooks to accomplish their needs in the kitchen and front line. In many and almost all cases in my operations it was more of a fact of hiring a person with a good attitude rather than experience. 
As far as comparing a Cooks experience to a construction trade is not even close. There is only one way to wire a house not a 1000 ways. The restaurant kitchen has a 1000 different ways of making the same dish.
The point of the Chef in the original post was that he left his safety to untrained or uncertified people. As soon as I could charge $75 for that meal that a person doesn't come to my restaurant very offend. Then I could pay a cook much more money for what they do. Kitchen wages never justified the amount of work that a person gave in the kitchen. I never worked any job as had as I did working in a kitchen. That being said, I never planned on being a cook all my life.....ChefBillyB


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## chefross

Seoul Food said:


> I still do not think you can equally compare them with skills like plumbers and electricians. The reason these trades can get away with a $75/hr rate is because the average consumer does not need them that often. I also don't really want to set a standard for chef salaries as this should be dictated by locale, supply and demand, individual skill, ect. not a government mandated training.


This is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

However; I do not agree.
I found during a Google search that plumbers can make as much as $50,000 (median income) and electricians as much as $71,000 for their work.
Both trades can endure some pretty bad situations.
Who's going to argue that preparing and serving 3,000 people at once or putting out 400 covers on a very busy night is just as bad, if not worse than anything those trades can come up with.?
Yet, the plumber and electrician command a higher salary simply because they are not needed as much?
Bogus, to say the least.


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## sgmchef

Ok! That's it...

I'm going solve all these issues and start a professional chefs organization here in the states to steer the direction of professional food service and call it... Ummmmmm.

The American Culinary Federation! 
No, wait a minute, maybe we could call it the National Restaurant Association!
International Food Service Executives Association?
What do you mean all those names are taken??? 
Wouldn't an organization such as these take lead on these issues? Must not be a clear answer for the huge variety of possible food operations.

Main difference between other trades and ours. Final product must meet code in other trades, our only code is sanitation and handling, not meeting some code of tenderness, ingredients, presentation, flavor, etc. of what hits the table. In one sense all trades do have one commonality, safety for the customer. At least on paper...


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## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> This is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
> 
> However; I do not agree.
> I found during a Google search that plumbers can make as much as $50,000 (median income) and electricians as much as $71,000 for their work.
> Both trades can endure some pretty bad situations.
> Who's going to argue that preparing and serving 3,000 people at once or putting out 400 covers on a very busy night is just as bad, if not worse than anything those trades can come up with.?
> Yet, the plumber and electrician command a higher salary simply because they are not needed as much?
> Bogus, to say the least.


Sorry if my point was not clear, as what you are replying to was not what I meant. I know all jobs have their ups and downs and not saying one is inherently harder than the other thus justifying the wages. I was talking about the point that another poster was making about all the training and qualifications being a base justification for that said work. My point being when you call in a plumber or such and he quotes you a few hundred bucks to fix something you may gripe about it but you are generally going to get the work done because you need to and hopefully it isn't a constant or recurring problem and thus expense. Using that same posters line of logic if we mandate certain training and qualifications and in turn use that to increase the salary levels of culinary professionals, it may be a harder sell to someone who will be picking up the difference in their meal bill. Not to mention that home or business repairs are generally viewed as a need as opposed to eating out as a want. At least for me if my car breaks down and I have to shell out some money for it I have to just shrug it off because I need my car. But if all of a sudden the cost of going out to my favorite take away has increased to cover costs related to government mandated programs, than I am going to have a little more of a problem with it, even if the cost is ultimately less. My opinion was that generally I would believe people eat out more often that they call trades people in for work. Because of this difference in frequency, it isn't a clear path in my mind to compare the two categories of trades and declare that since these things work in trade A than it would be a similar outcome in trade B.


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## Seoul Food

sgmchef said:


> Ok! That's it...
> 
> I'm going solve all these issues and start a professional chefs organization here in the states to steer the direction of professional food service and call it... Ummmmmm.
> 
> The American Culinary Federation!
> No, wait a minute, maybe we could call it the National Restaurant Association!
> International Food Service Executives Association?
> What do you mean all those names are taken???
> Wouldn't an organization such as these take lead on these issues? Must not be a clear answer for the huge variety of possible food operations.
> 
> Main difference between other trades and ours. Final product must meet code in other trades, our only code is sanitation and handling, not meeting some code of tenderness, ingredients, presentation, flavor, etc. of what hits the table. In one sense all trades do have one commonality, safety for the customer. At least on paper...


I'm glad you brought these up and I'm sure these organizations would love to have the government step in and declare that their teachings should be the standard and requirement. The problem I have with this is that all of a sudden people will be paying fees to take classes and get a piece of paper showing that they are now certified in things they already knew and probably learned for free. These large organizations (not specifically food service) are notoriously lazy when it comes to good continuing education and at the end of the day will just enrich a handful of people.


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## foodpump

No one’s comparing cooking experience to plumbing. If you re read that post you’ll find it deals with creativity.

That being said, how much creativity do you want a line cook to have? Follow the ( deleted) menu, follow orders creativity is more for chefs, not cooks. 

I do agree that cooking is as stepping stone to other things hospitality related.

The reason other trades get away with $75/hr is because the Unions set the rates, so everyone from the 1-man indie to the mega-firm charge that, or more. Then again, the Unions also work closely with the trades schools to design curriculum, and with municipal gov’ts in regards to codes.

Since I sold the business I’ve been working p/t at numerous places and catering co’s around the city. Everyone here is screaming for experienced cooks, but no one pays more than $22/hr. In this city a dumpy 1 bdrm. basement suite will cost upwards of $750/mths if you want to be within an hour’s travel time to the workplace. Most local kids now work with tele-marketing after high school rather than in kitchens—except for servers, because the money is better.
Cooks around here are becoming very hard to find, and even harder to retain because the cost of living doesn’t match the salary.

At the last two catering co’s I worked at, 60% of the labour in the kitchen was done by foreign students on 8-12 mths visas. I was spending hours every week training some bright Brazilian mechanical engineer or 3rd year H.R. student how to peel melons or cut friggin carrot sticks. This time around I’m showing newbies how the piping bag tip goes IN the piping bag and not outside. Needless to say Im a bit frustrated.


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## chefross

sgmchef said:


> Ok! That's it...
> 
> I'm going solve all these issues and start a professional chefs organization here in the states to steer the direction of professional food service and call it... Ummmmmm.
> 
> The American Culinary Federation!
> No, wait a minute, maybe we could call it the National Restaurant Association!
> International Food Service Executives Association?
> What do you mean all those names are taken???
> Wouldn't an organization such as these take lead on these issues? Must not be a clear answer for the huge variety of possible food operations.
> 
> Main difference between other trades and ours. Final product must meet code in other trades, our only code is sanitation and handling, not meeting some code of tenderness, ingredients, presentation, flavor, etc. of what hits the table. In one sense all trades do have one commonality, safety for the customer. At least on paper...


That's because it's all about money. The ACF isn't even recognized by our government.


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## chefross

Seoul Food said:


> Sorry if my point was not clear, as what you are replying to was not what I meant. I know all jobs have their ups and downs and not saying one is inherently harder than the other thus justifying the wages. I was talking about the point that another poster was making about all the training and qualifications being a base justification for that said work. My point being when you call in a plumber or such and he quotes you a few hundred bucks to fix something you may gripe about it but you are generally going to get the work done because you need to and hopefully it isn't a constant or recurring problem and thus expense. Using that same posters line of logic if we mandate certain training and qualifications and in turn use that to increase the salary levels of culinary professionals, it may be a harder sell to someone who will be picking up the difference in their meal bill. Not to mention that home or business repairs are generally viewed as a need as opposed to eating out as a want. At least for me if my car breaks down and I have to shell out some money for it I have to just shrug it off because I need my car. But if all of a sudden the cost of going out to my favorite take away has increased to cover costs related to government mandated programs, than I am going to have a little more of a problem with it, even if the cost is ultimately less. My opinion was that generally I would believe people eat out more often that they call trades people in for work. Because of this difference in frequency, it isn't a clear path in my mind to compare the two categories of trades and declare that since these things work in trade A than it would be a similar outcome in trade B.


Oh I understood very clearly, but I still maintain that under your reasoning then....a cook must competently have a baseline knowledge and qualifications to justify their wages.
Yes people eat out more than they need or use a plumber, so what?
What's your point? Simply because we use an electrician once in a blue moon or same with a plumber that they shall get more money for their expertise than a cook? 
I'm sorry I still don't get your justifications.
Without mandated policies, rules, and laws, set in place for all cooks and all eating establishments, other than food safety, there is disorganization. Employees are not trained well in all aspects of the kitchen before they are put on the line our out in the dining room. You see it and I see it when we dine out. Please explain why you think that just because we don't use a trade as much that they should command such a high wage? 
I can't stress enough after having devoted 48 years of my life to food and my career only to have people like you tell me I'm not worth as much as a plumber or electrician. I worked very hard and sweat gallons, and so did all the people that worked right along side me.

Sorry....I'm too angry to continue typing....


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## chefbillyb

*chefross, You must have had a better experience with cooks than I did. The ones I worked with skipped around town like they had a degree. They always wanted more hours only to not show up the next day. They never ask to add more responsibility but of course they wanted more money. Of course they were never happy about the raise they just got. They would now work on the next raise and again not wanting more responsibility. In many cases a Chef has to over staff a kitchen just to make sure they have enough people to accomplish what's needed for prep and service. 
The problem is cooks are employees that only want to punch-in and punch-out without any responsibility. If cooks did their job and took on more there wouldn't be a problem with paying them more.
The more you're needed the more you're worth. I remember telling a fellow Chef " If your applying for a job you'll never make what you're worth." You make the real money when an employer seeks you out.

foodpump, brings up that no one pays more than $22 an hr. Then we talk about how high rent is in a Tourist destination city. IMHO if you want to live in this kind of a city don't expect to have a real good living/house or social life. I started my career in Honolulu, Hawaii. After living there, getting married there and having our first child there, I realized I couldn't make the amount of money needed to give my family a quality life. 
 The cooks making $22 hr aren't worth that amount of money. They just have to have people/cooks in the kitchen broiling that $60 steak, $25 hamburger and $18 hotdog. My feeling is, if you can't afford to live in a big city and work a job that you could be replaced easily, then get the Hell to a place that you could afford and live a life you could afford. 
This is all about supply and demand. Supply an employee at whatever cost to sell a food product at any cost. 
I've said this many times. You'll never make a lot of money in this business working for someone else. The real money comes when you take a risk and own your own. I don't feel sorry for any cook that's making $15 Hr. It's up to them to learn and move up. As an owner It's not easy to make a profit in this business. The only way is to control costs, employees are a controllable cost. The reality is, if you want more you need to be worth more........ChefBillyB
*


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## Seoul Food

chefbillyb said:


> *chefross, You must have had a better experience with cooks than I did. The ones I worked with skipped around town like they had a degree. They always wanted more hours only to not show up the next day. They never ask to add more responsibility but of course they wanted more money. Of course they were never happy about the raise they just got. They would now work on the next raise and again not wanting more responsibility. In many cases a Chef has to over staff a kitchen just to make sure they have enough people to accomplish what's needed for prep and service.
> The problem is cooks are employees that only want to punch-in and punch-out without any responsibility. If cooks did their job and took on more there wouldn't be a problem with paying them more.
> The more you're needed the more you're worth. I remember telling a fellow Chef " If your applying for a job you'll never make what you're worth." You make the real money when an employer seeks you out.
> 
> foodpump, brings up that no one pays more than $22 an hr. Then we talk about how high rent is in a Tourist destination city. IMHO if you want to live in this kind of a city don't expect to have a real good living/house or social life. I started my career in Honolulu, Hawaii. After living there, getting married there and having our first child there, I realized I couldn't make the amount of money needed to give my family a quality life.
> The cooks making $22 hr aren't worth that amount of money. They just have to have people/cooks in the kitchen broiling that $60 steak, $25 hamburger and $18 hotdog. My feeling is, if you can't afford to live in a big city and work a job that you could be replaced easily, then get the Hell to a place that you could afford and live a life you could afford.
> This is all about supply and demand. Supply an employee at whatever cost to sell a food product at any cost.
> I've said this many times. You'll never make a lot of money in this business working for someone else. The real money comes when you take a risk and own your own. I don't feel sorry for any cook that's making $15 Hr. It's up to them to learn and move up. As an owner It's not easy to make a profit in this business. The only way is to control costs, employees are a controllable cost. The reality is, if you want more you need to be worth more........ChefBillyB
> *


At least you seem to be understanding in some of the points I am trying to make. The fact of the matter is this all goes back to the premise of letting the government mandate what qualifications a cook has to have and then forcing the average line cook to go through it. It also boils down to logistics, if someone's dream in life is to open a hot dog cart why would they have to go through a program to learn mother sauces and protein fabrication. And if you want to break training down into tiers based on expected job duties how would you ever cross train or allow someone to move up without having to go back and get a certification.


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## Seoul Food

chefross said:


> Oh I understood very clearly, but I still maintain that under your reasoning then....a cook must competently have a baseline knowledge and qualifications to justify their wages.
> Yes people eat out more than they need or use a plumber, so what?
> What's your point? Simply because we use an electrician once in a blue moon or same with a plumber that they shall get more money for their expertise than a cook?
> I'm sorry I still don't get your justifications.
> Without mandated policies, rules, and laws, set in place for all cooks and all eating establishments, other than food safety, there is disorganization. Employees are not trained well in all aspects of the kitchen before they are put on the line our out in the dining room. You see it and I see it when we dine out. Please explain why you think that just because we don't use a trade as much that they should command such a high wage?
> I can't stress enough after having devoted 48 years of my life to food and my career only to have people like you tell me I'm not worth as much as a plumber or electrician. I worked very hard and sweat gallons, and so did all the people that worked right along side me.
> 
> Sorry....I'm too angry to continue typing....


My point on frequency of trade use is not about wage justification for the employees rather than pointing out that you cannot compare the different trades equally. Another poster was talking about how certifications and documented qualifications would merit a baseline standard for culinary professionals, as it does in some other trades. I am just saying that I believe these trades can get away with their pricing because of frequency and need rather than the customer taking stock of how much training or education the worker has.

We already have mandated laws in place for food establishments, but it should be up to the individual business to decided about the training and policies as these will be much more specific for whatever they produce. Why should some government entity get to say that all workers at diners have to know and be able to do X and all workers at fine dining need to know and be able to do Y? The fact that there are places where service and food may not be up to customer satisfaction relates to that articular business' failures, not a open invitation for oversight from the government.

I commend you for practicing your trade for so long, and I mean do disrespect but the fact of the matter is that no matter how long you are in a career, there will always be outside factors that will come into play to alter your compensation. One of them being basic supply and demand. As I stated before, in my particular area the demand for skilled workers in construction trades, especially HVAC is far outpacing the supply. Thus companies are hiring at obscene rates even fresh out of technical school. In comparison higher skilled culinary labor is shorter, but the market is flooded with fast casual establishments and workers. Longevity in a career does not always equate better compensation either. You could devote 48 years of your life to digging ditches if you wanted, and I'm sure it would be back breaking work and you could have pride in that work and determination. But that person will never be "worth" compensation wise as much as say a electrician or lineman even right our of school. It is not degrading one trade or skill over the other simply stating that some jobs are worth more than others and trying to artificially inflate these wages to be more fair and in line to what you believe they should be by government order is not realistic.


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## cheflayne

Seoul Food said:


> if someone's dream in life is to open a hot dog cart why would they have to go through a program to learn mother sauces and protein fabrication.


There can be different levels of certification.

In California, if someone wants to work in a restaurant, they need to have a food handlers card. If they want to be in management, they need a more extended food handler certification card.

There can be different levels of certification. Take electricians for example, in California the levels are
apprentice, journeyman, master, contractor. If an electrician wants to be the equivalent of a hot dog cart worker, he doesn't necessarily need to get a contractor certification.

I am actually neither pro or con on certification. I just know that in a crunch situation if I needed a hollandaise made and had to delegate the task, I would trust an 18 year old that I had trained in making hollandaise more than I would blindly trust a 20 year restaurant veteran with a culinary degree and a CC certification.


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## cheflayne

chefross said:


> Yet why do we trust our lives (literally) when we dine out or take in, to someone we know nothing about who cooks our food?


It saddens me to say, but most people don' hold putting food on the table in very high regard. After all, when they were growing up their mothers put food on the table everyday and they had no formal training whatsoever, but their mothers couldn't put in a toilet or a run a new light switch.


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## fatcook

chefross said:


> What's your point? Simply because we use an electrician once in a blue moon or same with a plumber that they shall get more money for their expertise than a cook?
> 
> Please explain why you think that just because we don't use a trade as much that they should command such a high wage?


The plumber isn't _*getting more*_ because of this - people are willing to _*pay more*_ because of need vs want. If nobody is paying for a service, it doesn't matter what the salary is, there won't be any job at all.

As someone with with little money to spare, I fully admit I will drop the big bucks (even using credit if need be) to have something fixed (if I cannot repair it myself) because I _*need*_ it. If I walk into a restaurant and the food costs more than I can spare, I will not eat there - because I don't need to - I can cook for myself or go somewhere cheaper.

If I needed a plumber once a week for some strange reason, I would learn to do more of that for myself as well.



chefross said:


> I can't stress enough after having devoted 48 years of my life to food and my career only to have people like you tell me I'm not worth as much as a plumber or electrician. I worked very hard and sweat gallons, and so did all the people that worked right along side me.


Nobody is saying you are not _*worth* _as much as a plumber, but you are not as *necessary* as one to a large portion of the population. Not everyone gets to enjoy fine dining. It's like saying people who cannot afford you or your worth don't get to eat out.


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## cheflayne

cheflayne said:


> most people don' hold putting food on the table in very high regard


Think about it. How many people every year open a restaurant with zero restaurant experience under their belts? How many people open a plumbing service or electrical service with zero experience in those industries?


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## foodpump

Hi Seoul Food,

As I’ve stated before, the reason many trades charge upwards of $75/hr is because their Unions have set these rates.

It’s true that cooking and other trades are not the same—if you get your brakes or furnace done by an unlicensed professional, your insurance won’t cover you in the event of an accident. Then again the trade unions invest heavily in educating their members and working closely with schools and municipalities. 
I seriously doubt if any hospitality union has Invested anything, let alone inform members of what’s in the pot or, gawd forbid, circulate a yearly audited financial statement, as required by law. But I digress..

The worst enemy of the hospitality industry is ourselves— there’s just too much competition for the dining dollar.

Chefbillyb, I understand Honolulu is an expensive place to live, and so is Vancouver. The restaurants aren’t charging peanuts,and they aren’t paying peanut rent either. So how do you run a business that requires stafff to live within an hour’s worth of travel time, acknowledge that even the most basic of accommodations in this zone will require 60-70% of the employee’s paycheck, and still expect employees to sit up and beg for this? Either you get the dumb ones, or you get the the ones who last two weeks, but no one’s going to sit up and beg for this. Compound this with culinary school loans, and you get parents pleading with their kids to smarten up and get out of this crazy industry.

Just today the H.r. mngr of the catering co. I work at proudly announced a $150 payment to anyone who can bring in new staff, provided they pass a 1 mths probation period....


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## chefbillyb

foodpump said:


> Chefbillyb, I understand Honolulu is an expensive place to live, and so is Vancouver. The restaurants aren't charging peanuts,and they aren't paying peanut rent either. So how do you run a business that requires stafff to live within an hour's worth of travel time, acknowledge that even the most basic of accommodations in this zone will require 60-70% of the employee's paycheck, and still expect employees to sit up and beg for this? Either you get the dumb ones, or you get the the ones who last two weeks, but no one's going to sit up and beg for this. Compound this with culinary school loans, and you get parents pleading with their kids to smarten up and get out of this crazy industry.
> 
> Just today the H.r. mngr of the catering co. I work at proudly announced a $150 payment to anyone who can bring in new staff, provided they pass a 1 mths probation period....


Chef, I have seen some of the restaurants in my area giving a $500 sign on bonus. My area is short of experienced cooks. This isn't a metropolitan area, our growth is in wine, wine tours and Ag.
There isn't very many good options for the cook or the owner in Vancouver. It's not like the restaurant owner could provide housing. The employer can only pay so much before costs get way out of line.
If I was an owner I would try to innovate using less employees. If I'm the employee I would get the Hell out of Dodge.
I know in my business I had a terrible employee base. I kept a few good employees and payed them well. I did the rest with Family. I had no choice, it's either sink or swim. I also innovated and cut my labor in half. I can see the robots knocking on the restaurant door soon. The marketplace has no choice but to figure it out.......ChefBillyB


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## pastrysautegirl

foodpump said:


> No one's comparing cooking experience to plumbing. If you re read that post you'll find it deals with creativity.
> 
> That being said, how much creativity do you want a line cook to have? Follow the ( deleted) menu, follow orders creativity is more for chefs, not cooks.
> 
> I do agree that cooking is as stepping stone to other things hospitality related.
> 
> The reason other trades get away with $75/hr is because the Unions set the rates, so everyone from the 1-man indie to thea job in the kitchen from a friend there and have never gone outside the





foodpump said:


> No one's comparing cooking experience to plumbing. If you re read that post you'll find it deals with creativity.
> 
> That being said, how much creativity do you want a line cook to have? Follow the ( deleted) menu, follow orders creativity is more for chefs, not cooks.
> 
> I do agree that cooking is as stepping stone to other things hospitality related.
> 
> The reason other trades get away with $75/hr is because the Unions set the rates, so everyone from the 1-man indie to the mega-firm charge that, or more. Then again, the Unions also work closely with the trades schools to design curriculum, and with municipal gov'ts in regards to codes.
> 
> Since I sold the business I've been working p/t at numerous places and catering co's around the city. Everyone here is screaming for experienced cooks, but no one pays more than $22/hr. In this city a dumpy 1 bdrm. basement suite will cost upwards of $750/mths if you want to be within an hour's travel time to the workplace. Most local kids now work with tele-marketing after high school rather than in kitchens-except for servers, because the money is better.
> Cooks around here are becoming very hard to find, and even harder to retain because the cost of living doesn't match the salary.
> 
> At the last two catering co's I worked at, 60% of the labour in the kitchen was done by foreign students on 8-12 mths visas. I was spending hours every week training some bright Brazilian mechanical engineer or 3rd year H.R. student how to peel melons or cut friggin carrot sticks. This time around I'm showing newbies how the piping bag tip goes IN the piping bag and not outside. Needless to say Im a bit frustrated.


I live in a very small town (college town, tourist trap) where a dumpy (and i mean DUMPY) one bedroom apartment is going to start around 800, and if you grab a line cook job here, it's very unlikely you'll make more than 10/hr. And the utility rates for downtown living are also MEGA inflated. It's a really insular environment where a lot of cooks got a job in a kitchen through a friend and have never worked anywhere else or with an experienced or educated chef, and genuinely don't realize how lacking their fundamental knowledge in the trade really is.

Contemporary dining in the immediate area generally flounders and dies pretty quickly. The restaurateurs expect thirsty, resilient, prodigy cooks to sacrifice all of their time for little pay, zero benefits, and no personal life because (i suspect) of the way this industry has become so romanticized through reality television, celebrity chefs, and movies. I was a lunatic about working multiple jobs, going outside my comfort zone, and finding kitchens outside of my small town where i could learn, when i was in my early 20s; as i got older, the kids i worked with in their early 20s were mostly just late to work, eager to leave, uninterested in learning, mad they couldn't take off to go to music festivals during busy seasons, and obsessed with getting culinary-inspired tattoos and "title" positions.

I own a tiny bakery where everything is made according to the standards and practices i learned in fine dining; everything is scratch and high quality; everything is made fresh and not frozen. Folks ask me all the time why i don't expand and simply hire people to teach so i didn't have to work so much and the answer is a combination of: rent is too high, the talent pool is too shallow, and we lack an audience who would consistently pay more money for better food. I've literally been name-called by customers for having the audacity to charge 50$ for a cake. If i invested in the overhead to expand the way folks think i ought to, in this particular area, i would run myself into the ground instantaneously, or at best: after the initial excitement died down.

Young people don't want to work in kitchens anymore the way they used to. It's incredibly difficult to make enough money to live, you'll NEVER escape the cycle of renting shared apartments, and the "fun" things your friends are doing with their spare time are generally inaccessible. There are days I just can't imagine what the future of dining will become. I don't know what the solutions are, because people so often demand large portions and low prices, and feel inspired to slam you on social media platforms if you fail to provide. If you want to make great food, it requires a certain minimum in labor, which requires bodies, which requires money (either for skill or in sheer volume of hours). I don't know how this industry will survive in the long run in terms of quality, independent establishments. Folks love to brag about their favorite scratch establishments, and then complain about the prices on their way out the door.


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## sgsvirgil

pastrysautegirl said:


> I live in a very small town (college town, tourist trap) where a dumpy (and i mean DUMPY) one bedroom apartment is going to start around 800, and if you grab a line cook job here, it's very unlikely you'll make more than 10/hr. And the utility rates for downtown living are also MEGA inflated. It's a really insular environment where a lot of cooks got a job in a kitchen through a friend and have never worked anywhere else or with an experienced or educated chef, and genuinely don't realize how lacking their fundamental knowledge in the trade really is.
> 
> Contemporary dining in the immediate area generally flounders and dies pretty quickly. The restaurateurs expect thirsty, resilient, prodigy cooks to sacrifice all of their time for little pay, zero benefits, and no personal life because (i suspect) of the way this industry has become so romanticized through reality television, celebrity chefs, and movies. I was a lunatic about working multiple jobs, going outside my comfort zone, and finding kitchens outside of my small town where i could learn, when i was in my early 20s; as i got older, the kids i worked with in their early 20s were mostly just late to work, eager to leave, uninterested in learning, mad they couldn't take off to go to music festivals during busy seasons, and obsessed with getting culinary-inspired tattoos and "title" positions.
> 
> I own a tiny bakery where everything is made according to the standards and practices i learned in fine dining; everything is scratch and high quality; everything is made fresh and not frozen. Folks ask me all the time why i don't expand and simply hire people to teach so i didn't have to work so much and the answer is a combination of: rent is too high, the talent pool is too shallow, and we lack an audience who would consistently pay more money for better food. I've literally been name-called by customers for having the audacity to charge 50$ for a cake. If i invested in the overhead to expand the way folks think i ought to, in this particular area, i would run myself into the ground instantaneously, or at best: after the initial excitement died down.
> 
> Young people don't want to work in kitchens anymore the way they used to. It's incredibly difficult to make enough money to live, you'll NEVER escape the cycle of renting shared apartments, and the "fun" things your friends are doing with their spare time are generally inaccessible. There are days I just can't imagine what the future of dining will become. I don't know what the solutions are, because people so often demand large portions and low prices, and feel inspired to slam you on social media platforms if you fail to provide. If you want to make great food, it requires a certain minimum in labor, which requires bodies, which requires money (either for skill or in sheer volume of hours). I don't know how this industry will survive in the long run in terms of quality, independent establishments. Folks love to brag about their favorite scratch establishments, and then complain about the prices on their way out the door.


Exceptionally well said!


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## pastrysautegirl

sgsvirgil said:


> Exceptionally well said!


its tough out here, right??


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## chefross

Thanks to all. I feel, at least, a little vindicated in my opinions. Pastrysautegirl pretty much summed it up. As sad as it is, the policies and rules should be enforced and taught by the establishment itself. Unfortunately they are not.
To Seoul Food, Foodpump, Cheflayne, fatcook, sgsvirgil, and all the rest of my fellow Chefs and cooks, thanks. 
As far as eating out being a need as opposed to an electrician or plumber, more and more people are dining out, even if it's a cup of Starbucks in the morning, or grabbing a McDonalds at lunch to eat in the car. There may come a day when eating out really does become a need.
I'm still waiting for replicators.


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## Seoul Food

pastrysautegirl said:


> I live in a very small town (college town, tourist trap) where a dumpy (and i mean DUMPY) one bedroom apartment is going to start around 800, and if you grab a line cook job here, it's very unlikely you'll make more than 10/hr. And the utility rates for downtown living are also MEGA inflated. It's a really insular environment where a lot of cooks got a job in a kitchen through a friend and have never worked anywhere else or with an experienced or educated chef, and genuinely don't realize how lacking their fundamental knowledge in the trade really is.
> 
> Contemporary dining in the immediate area generally flounders and dies pretty quickly. The restaurateurs expect thirsty, resilient, prodigy cooks to sacrifice all of their time for little pay, zero benefits, and no personal life because (i suspect) of the way this industry has become so romanticized through reality television, celebrity chefs, and movies. I was a lunatic about working multiple jobs, going outside my comfort zone, and finding kitchens outside of my small town where i could learn, when i was in my early 20s; as i got older, the kids i worked with in their early 20s were mostly just late to work, eager to leave, uninterested in learning, mad they couldn't take off to go to music festivals during busy seasons, and obsessed with getting culinary-inspired tattoos and "title" positions.
> 
> I own a tiny bakery where everything is made according to the standards and practices i learned in fine dining; everything is scratch and high quality; everything is made fresh and not frozen. Folks ask me all the time why i don't expand and simply hire people to teach so i didn't have to work so much and the answer is a combination of: rent is too high, the talent pool is too shallow, and we lack an audience who would consistently pay more money for better food. I've literally been name-called by customers for having the audacity to charge 50$ for a cake. If i invested in the overhead to expand the way folks think i ought to, in this particular area, i would run myself into the ground instantaneously, or at best: after the initial excitement died down.
> 
> Young people don't want to work in kitchens anymore the way they used to. It's incredibly difficult to make enough money to live, you'll NEVER escape the cycle of renting shared apartments, and the "fun" things your friends are doing with their spare time are generally inaccessible. There are days I just can't imagine what the future of dining will become. I don't know what the solutions are, because people so often demand large portions and low prices, and feel inspired to slam you on social media platforms if you fail to provide. If you want to make great food, it requires a certain minimum in labor, which requires bodies, which requires money (either for skill or in sheer volume of hours). I don't know how this industry will survive in the long run in terms of quality, independent establishments. Folks love to brag about their favorite scratch establishments, and then complain about the prices on their way out the door.


I get your points, as they are valid ones we all have to deal is. My question is how do you think mandated certifications would improve these situations? Don't take this as criticism I have genuine curiosity as I have no answers myself.


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## foodpump

The certification in Canada is called the “red seal”, and applies not only to cooks, but to most other trades. Yes it is federally governed, but for us Canucks, has never been in the news or discussed much.

Most of the hotels, fine dining places,and even some of chains require red seal cooks, and pay a bit more than the going rate, as well as having some kind of tip sharing deal as well. These places in turn have “bragging rights” to having “red seal chefs” (not! They are cooks, dammit) and tend to advertise this fact.

While there is an apprenticeship program for red seal, an easier and popular route is to go to a community college, take a short block of schooling, write the test for cook 1, work the required hours to take the cook 2 block of schooling, write that test, then work the required hours to write and cook the red seal test..

A lot of the employers like this system as it A) pretty much guarantees an interested and motivated worker, B) pay scales only jump after the tests have been passed, and C) pretty much guarantees a stable length of employment.

Of course, the pay still sucks pond water, but the employer who requests and pays for a red seal cook tends to treat them with respect, and the cook tends to take their job seriously and professionally.

Hope this provides some insight. My own experiences were with the apprenticeship system in Switzerland, where I signed a 3-way contract with my employer, the Fed gov’t, and myself for a three year apprenticeship. The pay was below living wages, however the employer, in order to train apprentices, had to have over 50% of the work force apprenticed. The cook’s guild which provided the certification set country wide pay scales for the apprentices, and minimums for apprenticed cooks. An employer who did hire a non-apprenticed cook was not obliged to follow this rate.


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## sgsvirgil

pastrysautegirl said:


> its tough out here, right??


Indeed it is. But, its nothing like it was back in the day when I started. We had to walk uphill both ways in snow all year round just to get tot work. We had to fetch water from a pump in the town square. We had to salt out meat and fish because ice hadn't been invented yet. And worst of all, our phones had cords and stayed in one place! So, if we wanted to talk to someone, we had to go to their house, go find a phone and hope no one was using it or find these things called pay phones! Can you believe that?? How did we ever manage to emerge from the dark ages? If that wasn't bad enough, social networking was usually that person we worked with who gossipped and knew everyone's business. :lol::rofl:

Cheers!


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## foodpump

The toughest part of my last business was when this woman came in and demanded to “talk to the owner”. We had only been open for a month or so. I’ll never forget what she said:

“I’m Mrs. X, head of fundraising for Z Elementary school,(3 blocks down the road)The reason I tell all the parents not to shop here is because you don’t support our sports programs, gr.6 girls volleyball really need new uniforms, and we also need a sponsor for out-of-city tournaments...”

Sure as ( deleted) don’t miss those days....


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## Seoul Food

foodpump said:


> Hope this provides some insight. My own experiences were with the apprenticeship system in Switzerland, where I signed a 3-way contract with my employer, the Fed gov't, and myself for a three year apprenticeship. The pay was below living wages, however the employer, in order to train apprentices, had to have over 50% of the work force apprenticed. The cook's guild which provided the certification set country wide pay scales for the apprentices, and minimums for apprenticed cooks. An employer who did hire a non-apprenticed cook was not obliged to follow this rate.


So in that scenario who decides what and when gets taught to you? Does the employer have to go by a strict curriculum based training program or is it more about skills while doing process that are specific needs of that particular business? Also what role did the government play? Did they actively participate on a regular basis or was it more of a rubber stamp at the end of the contract term situation?



foodpump said:


> The toughest part of my last business was when this woman came in and demanded to "talk to the owner". We had only been open for a month or so. I'll never forget what she said:
> 
> "I'm Mrs. X, head of fundraising for Z Elementary school,(3 blocks down the road)The reason I tell all the parents not to shop here is because you don't support our sports programs, gr.6 girls volleyball really need new uniforms, and we also need a sponsor for out-of-city tournaments..."
> 
> Sure as ( deleted) don't miss those days....


This is another reason I never jumped into the fray of business ownership. While that was my original goal life situations change and it just didn't seem appealing anymore. Not to mention all the media platforms that have transformed everyone into a NY times food critic. I have nothing but respect for people who want to deal with the craziness of owning their own business.


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## chefbillyb

Seoul Food said:


> This is another reason I never jumped into the fray of business ownership. While that was my original goal life situations change and it just didn't seem appealing anymore. Not to mention all the media platforms that have transformed everyone into a NY times food critic. I have nothing but respect for people who want to deal with the craziness of owning their own business.


I've been in this business for over 30 years and worked in every kind of food service imaginable. I would recommend to anyone with aspirations in becoming a Chef to make the end game owning their own business. There is more upside to owning your own business than downside. You'll always have the public element to deal with. Whats good is you have full control of your food vision and answer to no one. You're also in a position to make a Hell of a lot more money than if you were working for someone. To me it's the only end game in town. If it isn't then change professions because longevity in this business isn't in your best interest.
I know some of you are chomping at the bit to say the customer is my boss. My answer is, If I exceed my customers exceptions I'll be the one making the rules.


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## chefross

chefbillyb said:


> I've been in this business for over 30 years and worked in every kind of food service imaginable. I would recommend to anyone with aspirations in becoming a Chef to make the end game owning their own business. There is more upside to owning your own business than downside. You'll always have the public element to deal with. Whats good is you have full control of your food vision and answer to no one. You're also in a position to make a Hell of a lot more money than if you were working for someone. To me it's the only end game in town. If it isn't then change professions because longevity in this business isn't in your best interest.
> I know some of you are chomping at the bit to say the customer is my boss. My answer is, If I exceed my customers exceptions I'll be the one making the rules.


I too have worked in many food services everything from college to hospital, to airline, hotels, restaurants, and so forth. To me, with all of your experience and knowledge, the daily running of a place becomes almost automatic, if you have the right team members on your side.
The one point you made about ownership and not having to report to anyone but yourself is a misnomer. We all have to report to someone, even if we are the owner. The customer decides whether we win or lose. There is no getting around that.


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## foodpump

Hi Seoulfood,

In many parts of Europe, students are streamlined into 2 groups at age 15. The first group are those who will take apprenticeships, and the second group goes on to higher education. Those seeking an apprenticeship must find an employer willing to take them on. Most apprenticeships are 3 years with some at two and some at four. You go to school one day a week, and this day is split into one part dealing with everything relevant to your trade, and one part dealing with accounting, German, civics, etc.. The fed govt considers apprenticeships part of the education curriculum, and provides the school, the teachers for the civics part, and the testing and certification. The trade unions-or guilds, if you like, provide the trade curriculum and the teacher for this.

The first year apprentices get paid virtually nothing, but then again they are 15, have never worked before, and need to be shown everything. Second year pays about 10% more, and third year again another 10%, but still waaay lower than what an apprenticed cook would earn.

The bonuses of this system are: A nationally recognized trade qualification at age 18, no debt occurred, and the apprentice is still employed, choosing to leave the employers if they want to. Th only real downside to this is that many 15 yr olds are not ready to choose a career at this age.

The possibility of private N.American culinary schools teaching in 2-3 week blocks is very high, it’s just not that profitable, and then there’s some effort required in logistics, so for the most part the schools figure “p*ss on that idea, it’s too much work”, and of course there’s no one to hold them accountable for anything. The unions in our industry have done nothing, and refuse to even provide members with an audited statement of what’s happening with their dues—let alone a friggin card that identifies them as union members—pretty much as useless as an ashtray on a Harley, but then again, no one’s holding the unions accountable for anything either.

Hope this provides some insight on how this situation has been handled in other countries.


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## Seoul Food

foodpump said:


> Hi Seoulfood,
> 
> In many parts of Europe, students are streamlined into 2 groups at age 15. The first group are those who will take apprenticeships, and the second group goes on to higher education. Those seeking an apprenticeship must find an employer willing to take them on. Most apprenticeships are 3 years with some at two and some at four. You go to school one day a week, and this day is split into one part dealing with everything relevant to your trade, and one part dealing with accounting, German, civics, etc.. The fed govt considers apprenticeships part of the education curriculum, and provides the school, the teachers for the civics part, and the testing and certification. The trade unions-or guilds, if you like, provide the trade curriculum and the teacher for this.
> 
> The first year apprentices get paid virtually nothing, but then again they are 15, have never worked before, and need to be shown everything. Second year pays about 10% more, and third year again another 10%, but still waaay lower than what an apprenticed cook would earn.
> 
> The bonuses of this system are: A nationally recognized trade qualification at age 18, no debt occurred, and the apprentice is still employed, choosing to leave the employers if they want to. Th only real downside to this is that many 15 yr olds are not ready to choose a career at this age.
> 
> The possibility of private N.American culinary schools teaching in 2-3 week blocks is very high, it's just not that profitable, and then there's some effort required in logistics, so for the most part the schools figure "p*ss on that idea, it's too much work", and of course there's no one to hold them accountable for anything. The unions in our industry have done nothing, and refuse to even provide members with an audited statement of what's happening with their dues-let alone a friggin card that identifies them as union members-pretty much as useless as an ashtray on a Harley, but then again, no one's holding the unions accountable for anything either.
> 
> Hope this provides some insight on how this situation has been handled in other countries.


Sounds interesting. I do agree 15 seems rather young as here we are asking people that are almost 18 the same thing, only their decisions ultimately can lead to years of massive student loan debt. I wish they promoted this type of schooling option more here, with the ability of students to try trade schools without the financial commitment.

The only counter point I want to add that is in my experience the two or three week block cycle style can be profitable. I know my school was making money hand over fist, and they streamlined everything so all your prep was never wasted, and the end of your schooling you essentially became even worse than free labor for them as you were basically paying them money to be allowed to work in their restaurants. The school had multiple affiliations with various culinary federations but nothing on a state or federal level I don't believe.


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