# Wanting to understand what is needed for a sharpening kit ?



## kmstl (Sep 26, 2011)

Before I buy anything I'm trying to envision the entire sharpening process and figure out what all is needed.

I didn't see this all pulled together on any previous posts so I thought it might be helpful to others down the road too.

Freehand you need your sharpening stones.

In my case I'm planning on the Edge Pro and stones. With that it looks like you should also get a drill stop collar and angle cube to account for your stones wearing differently over time and thus ending up with various thicknesses, which in turn affects your sharpening angles.

I'm assuming if you have fine enough grit stones they replace the need for polishing tapes? They are just two different ways to do the same thing? I'm also reading about leather strops but not sure how they fit in or if they are needed. It sounds like they are like polishing tapes? So a third way to do the same thing.

Is just a steel like the ceramic idahone enough to deburr? I see some previous posts talking about cork too? Is there a reason to use one thing in one case and another in a different case?  I plan to have a 12" idahone so I'm hoping I don't need cork too.

After time goes buy and the stones have dips and need flattening it looks like you either need drywall screen or a diamond plate DMT 8XX or something to fatten it. I saw further references to lapping stones? Is that something you use on your stone after you flattened it to take out the roughness from the diamond plate? Sort of like using a polishing stone after you sharpened on more course stone? Is it necessary to buy one and if so what one?

It also sounds like you need to make sure to do the flattening on a flat surface like a piece of glass or reference granite.  Is there a good, reasonable priced place to get the piece of granite? Do you just get a piece of tile from the hardware store?

It definitely doesn't seem like just the sharpening system and stones is all you need.

I appreciate the help with putting together my sharpening "kit" and correcting my misunderstandings.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

It's been pulled together many, many times.  Maybe not recently, though. 

The "entire sharpening process," consists of profiling, sharpening and polishing.  Profiling is done with coarse stones (or other tools), sharpening with medium, and polishing with fine. 

There are a lot of ways to sharpen and envision sharpening.  The way you'll most likely run into here, I call "the burr method" for lack of a better or official name. 

The burr method consists of raising a burr, chasing the burr, and deburring. 

"Chasing the burr," means moving the burr from side to side.  The burr is ready to be deburred when it moves easily from side with one swipe on the stone or the steel.  A steel is a powerful method for chasing the burr because it's small contact patch puts so much force per unit area on the edge.  But deburring is not the steel's only role.  It is the easiest and most convenient way to true a knife which has fallen out of alignment.  

Polishing sometimes involves raising a burr and deburring, sometimes not.  It depends on several interrelated factors, and a few independent ones at well.  Let's wait to burn that bridge until we get to it.

You don't absolutely need a drill stop collar or angle cube; but as you add stones and tapes, and as your stones wear at different rates, they'll make a positive difference.

You don't absolutely need strops of any sort, let alone leather strops.  Stropping is a way of sharpening and polishing.  As a sharpening method it's usually a "band aid" which covers up for other flaws; and in the end usually creates burrs of such size and tenacity they're nearly impossible to manage.  Many, if not most, enthusiastic stroppers are totally clueless; be civil but don't take them seriously. 

Stropping is also a fast and effective method of polishing at very high levels of polish -- but it's an impractical level for you.  Hold off for now. 

A steel is of great value in chasing the burr -- especially at fairly coarse grit levels.  However, it isn't usually the last tool in the deburring process.  You want something which will "grab" the burr and peel it off the knife.  People often draw the knife through the end grain side of softwoods, wine corks, or shirt-board (a kind of cardboard).  Felt is becoming very popular. 

You will need to flatten.  Drywall screen works perfectly well and is very cheap.  A DMT XXC diamond plate is expensive, fast and neater.  There are other plates and methods but the DMT XXC is probably the most popular diamond flattening plate (for good reasons), and I continue to push drywall screen because it's so much faster and easier than any of the other cheap methods. 

The best way to lap your stones is by rubbing one against another.  With modern synthetic stones, there's really not much need for a nagura. 

You don't need a fancy reference plate.  A steel baking pan on your kitchen counter is good enough to hold the stones and flatteners.  If you like, you can use a piece of glass (aka a float) thick enough not to break easily; glass is about as flat as flat gets. 

Keep asking.

BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I could answer your post in book form, but BDL did such a good job that there isn't a lot to add.  My one minor quibble, if you intend to get an EP, is that the drill stop collar is nearly mandatory.  It's such a powerful and time saving tool that you'd be foolish not to use one, especially at the princely sum of $1.75!  There's no earthly reason to get out the Sharpie and d!ck around for five minutes verifying an angle you already have.  Save yourself the headache and get a DSC.  Now the Angle Cube is a bit of a luxury...or at least it seems like a luxury until you use it awhile.  The Angle Cube is pretty much like Cable/DSL internet compared to Dial-Up; the former is greatly missed in its absence.


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## kmstl (Sep 26, 2011)

Ok, based on what I'm understanding, here is what I'm thinking for my shopping list.

EP Apex Custom Chosera kit. -- I can live without the pro, and I do think the Chosera kit offers a good buy in stones. 5 stones for $125.

Drill stop collar -- To cheap to not get

Angle cube -- I'm too much of a geek to not get this.

Idahone 12" ceramic steel

Hand American Rock Hard Deburring felt block ($4) -- Seems a cheap way of removing the burr.

20x loupe -- I'd like to see what's going on, in hopes I'll learn something. I can use it for some non sharping related things too.

DMT XXC

Piece of glass for my work area -- to stick the suction cups of the apex too.

I'll put some more knife info here. Since your right BDL, that other thread has gotten way off track, partly my fault.

Based on your 6 knife recommendations in the other thread, I'm leaning towards getting either the MAC Pro 9 1/2 or 11" or Richmond addict 2. Can't decide which yet of the two or length of the pro. If I go with MAC pro I would get the matching 6" utility knife. I'm not sure what utility would make a good pair if I got the Richmond Addict 2 chef. Even though the "wants the best" part of me would like to start immediately into something like the Konosuke HD's, I think I would be well served by the Mac Pro or Richmond and a year of cooking. Both of them sound to be a little more forgiving. At the sub $200 price, I won't feel bad if I go with something else down the road.

How would the MAC Pro vs Richmond compare in time between sharpening, ease of sharpening? 

Which of the Chosera stones in my kit would be best for those?

Would the 1k be fine for my Henckels and Victoronix chef?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

KMSTL said:


> Ok, based on what I'm understanding, here is what I'm thinking for my shopping list.
> 
> EP Apex Custom Chosera kit. -- I can live without the pro, and I do think the Chosera kit offers a good buy in stones. 5 stones for $125.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great setup! I'd suggest this magnifier: If you read the reviews you'll see that I posted mine. They feel a little cheap but they work very well, and they put the light right where you need it. I have a handful just in case one craps out.

A glass baking dish is the perfect thing to mount the EP on, provided you have one with low enough sides not to bang the arm on it (another advantage to the Pro- extra height). Better still, mount it on one of these! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif



Some kind of pan or dish is nice to contain the water & swarf. A sheet of glass might get messy.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

KMSTL said:


> Based on your 6 knife recommendations in the other thread, I'm leaning towards getting either the MAC Pro 9 1/2 or 11" or Richmond addict 2. Can't decide which yet of the two or length of the pro. If I go with MAC pro I would get the matching 6" utility knife. I'm not sure what utility would make a good pair if I got the Richmond Addict 2 chef. Even though the "wants the best" part of me would like to start immediately into something like the Konosuke HD's, I think I would be well served by the Mac Pro or Richmond and a year of cooking. Both of them sound to be a little more forgiving. At the sub $200 price, I won't feel bad if I go with something else down the road.
> 
> How would the MAC Pro vs Richmond compare in time between sharpening, ease of sharpening?
> 
> ...


Well, BDL will have to chime in on the MAC Pro. The Addict 2 is nicer than the original one, although the differences are subtle. The Addict (1 & 2) are both a real chore to sharpen, at least the first time. The A2 is easier since it's ground thinner to start with. With your EP you'll get it sharp, it's just a matter of taking longer. Once you have it sharp for the first time it's not to hard to touch up as needed. The $150-$200 price range is a crowded field, filled with excellent choices. And the Addict is certainly one of them. It's light and fun to use, with really good edge retention. It's hard to make a definitive recommendation since there are so many good ones but I've been very happy with mine. I did just sell my Addict 1 yesterday, with the intention of buying one of the Addict 2's I have here to sharpen, but now I have a different plan; Mark has announced his intention to offer the Addict 2 in 52100 high carbon!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif Oh, yes...it WILL BE MINE!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Still, the average user will likely prefer a stainless blade for all the obvious reasons.

Without having used or sharpened the MAC, it will almost certainly be easier to sharpen than the Addict. Again, the Addict is only painful the first time. All of the Choceras work well with the CPM-154 steel of the Addict 2. The 400 will be the place to start. Since you don't even have your EP yet I hesitate to mention adding even more stones, but I use diamond products for the initial bevel setting on knives like this. You don't have too but I'm lazy and it saves me a lot of work. You can buy these from a couple vendors or you can DIY it; a couple years ago I bought a 2" x 6" DMT XC Dia-Sharp and fastened it to a $7 extra blank with JB Weld. Total cost was $35 counting the DMT and the tubes of Epoxy. It's almost as cheap to buy one already mounted to a 2 x6 plate nowadays.

1K is probably fine for your Henckels and Victorinox knives. I normally finish them to 2k but that's personal preference. In fact, my routine for Wusthofs is usually setting the bevel on a DMT XC, then jumping to a 2k Naniwa Aotoshi (aka "The Green Brick").

For $4 you might wanna play with the felt cube. I have one, too. A wine cork is about as good. I only debur in the conventional sense off of stones below 1k; off of the 1k I debur with a couple of light strokes on the Idahone. Others have different routines, and it won't take long to find yours.


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## kmstl (Sep 26, 2011)

Right now I'm leaning strongly towards getting the MAC Pro simply because that knife has a lot more history than the new Richmond Addict 2. It sounds like the MAC Pro is a good gateway knife into Japanese knives as well. So starting there makes some sense to me. I still am having trouble deciding between 9 1/2" and 11" sizes.  I don't have any issues with my 10" Victorinox Chef length wise. So not sure if longer or shorter would be better.   

Looking at older posts I saw something from BDL saying that the MAC Pro was similarly hard to initially sharpen like Phaedrus describes the Richmond Addict 2. How much risk do I run trying to do that first sharpening while also learning the EP?  Would I be better off having CKtG send it through Kenneth Schwartz at Precise Sharpening to get that first sharpening done right? That seems to have the advantages of letting me see what really sharp is and getting the harder initial sharpening out of the way so I can take over from there?  If it's just extra time, then I'm not concerned. If there is extra skill too, then I'm more concerned.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The MAC Pro is an excellent choice.  It's pretty much impossible to do better at the price.  I've given at least half a dozen as gifts, and steered dozens of new buyers to purchase.  (If you buy form CKtG let Mark know you were talking to me.  Also, if you buy from MAC USA, say "hi" to Harold.  I don't have a commercial relationship with either, but it's good to maintain the relationships.)

The MAC Pro ships with a 15* flat bevel, which works well.  In my experience, the MAC really sings with a 15*/10* double bevel, but I wouldn't be in any hurry to do that.  Given that it doesn't really need the tweak, it's a good idea for you to first get a feeling for the knife and your new sharpening kit. 

It comes very sharp out of the box and doesn't need any initial sharpening to be useful.  It's your money, but I don't recommend having it professionally sharpened unless you have something specific in mind.  Whether or not you want to "open" the knife by profiling in a different geometry is your option, but again I wouldn't recommend doing it anytime soon. 

When you first sharpen the MAC gyuto, you'll want to use the 1000, 3000, and 5000 stones.  Also, use the Magic Marker Trick (shown on Edge Pro you-tube videos) the first couple of times.  It is an even better aid to visually representing what's going on than a magnifier.

I like the felt cube and use it; but I also use a very light pass on a wine cork for the final deburring.

You shouldn't need the 400 for the first few sharpenings, and EP or no EP.  It's a good idea to hold of on stones that coarse and fast until you have a good handle on sharpening in general (and the EP specifically).  Coarse stones have consequences, and the havoc they wreak can be time consuming to repair.  After you've sharpened your new knife three or four times, it will need a little thinning; and that's the time to use the 400.  It's also a good time to thin down to 10* for the 15*/10* double bevel, if you're interested.

Phaedrus likes diamond stones more than I do for coarse work in general.  I only use my diamond bench stone for flattening, but think his advice on getting an EP cut diamond plate for profile/repair is sound.  Heck, even if you're not convinced I am. 

You'll probably find the 10000 to be more time waster than useful -- but after you've tried a 5000 edge, go ahead and try a 10000 on your second sharpening and see what you think.  Any benefits (if any) from the extra polish will disappear (in spades) the first time you use the hone.

BDL


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## luis j (Jan 19, 2011)

boar_d_laze said:


> The MAC Pro is an excellent choice. It's pretty much impossible to do better at the price. I've given at least half a dozen as gifts, and steered dozens of new buyers to purchase. (If you buy form CKtG let Mark know you were talking to me. Also, if you buy from MAC USA, say "hi" to Harold. I don't have a commercial relationship with either, but it's good to maintain the relationships.)
> 
> The MAC Pro ships with a 15* flat bevel, which works well. In my experience, the MAC really sings with a 15*/10* double bevel, but I wouldn't be in any hurry to do that. Given that it doesn't really need the tweak, it's a good idea for you to first get a feeling for the knife and your new sharpening kit.
> 
> ...


BDL... Since I'm one of those guys that have fallen for a MAC Based on your advice along with the advice of other respected members of the forum, I'll like to know if you can elaborate a bit more on the 15/10 double bevel. I've been using the knife and sharpening it on 15/15 and I think that the knife is absolutely amazing (Actually I just sharpened it once, and from there I just "strop" on the 6000 stone and it gets back to razor sharp, I'm not letting it get dull, just when I feel that it is not perfectly sharp I strop it. Is it a healthy practice?)

But if you're saying that the knife can be taken to another level with such profiling, I'll like to give it a try, your advice will be more than appreciated amigo.

Best regards!


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Luis! Good to see you posting again.

I haven't handled an Addict (or Addict2); looking at the pics, it seems to be overly tall.  Maybe I have small hands.  Too tall seems less agile to me, though.  Is the Remedy less tall? Looks that way.  I know it's another price class up, though.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The Remedy is substantially shorter, although the Addict isn't really all that tall.  I'll be pretty busy working this weekend but if I have time I'll post a pic of them side by side (I have a batch of 'em here that I'm sharpening for CKtG).


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Or if no time for pics, a comparison/impression would be cool...  I'm wondering if you are less excited about the Remedy or if your enthusiasm for the the Addict2 is more a price point issue.  Or a handle issue. Just going by the pics on the website, the Remedy looks to me to have the better profile.  Not sure about the squared-off (looking) bolster. Anyway this is all academic for me -- I'm just trying to learn, in part to compare what I can see in pics vs what people who have had the knife in hand have to say.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Well, I'm just on a wa kick lately so the Addict is interesting.  Price is an issue, too.  The Addict is $50 or so cheaper.  The field of good $230 Western knives is pretty crowded whereas there aren't an awful lot of good $160 stainless wa-gyutos.  Also, since I owned the Addict it got used a lot were I've never cut food with the Remedy (I'm sharpening it but it's new in the box).  But the Remedy is a tad block in the handle, somewhat reminiscent of a Tojiro DP.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I getcha... I think the Remedy would be far more intersting "wa-"... or at least, from pictures, the western handle and bolster look to be not very good.

But the profile of the knife looks better to my eye than that on the Addict(2).  Less tall, less severe belly.  I've read elsewhere, from someone who has a track record of knowing before he speaks,  that the heat treatment on the addict was extraordinary.  I assume that on the Remedy is at least as much so.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I guess I'm not sure if Mark is having the HT done by the same place for all. Certainly the HT is great on the Addict, and edge retention is very impressive. The profile is good on both but yes, the Remedy is shorter and somewhat flatter.

BTW, I forgot that I was gonna take some pics- was busy all weekend with work, and busy tonite manning the candy bowl for trick or treaters./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif Lucky for me I gave away every single piece I had, no mean feat since I had a ton! But it was in the mid 50's tonite which helped. I can't ever remember it being so beautiful weather-wise on Halloween.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

boar_d_laze said:


> Phaedrus likes diamond stones more than I do for coarse work in general. I only use my diamond bench stone for flattening, but think his advice on getting an EP cut diamond plate for profile/repair is sound. Heck, even if you're not convinced I am.
> 
> BDL


Missed this one. I will say that overall I like to use waterstones at the coarse grits as well, but not when doing major work on very abrasion resistant steels. I simply don't have the time or patience to grind away for several hours when I could accomplish the same thing in 1/3 the time with diamonds. On steels that are willing to cooperate (eg Shirogami) then even naturals are good.

Hmmm...I guess the more I think about it though, BDL is right. I like diamonds for very "difficult" steels and removing large amounts of other steels. The more I see the more my techniques and preferences change, too. Although I've been sharpening for many many years I'm fairly new to some of the "supersteels" that everyone is going on about now (S-30V, CPM-154, CPM-M4, S-90V, S-35V, etc). Some of those fellas need strong persuasion!

About the only replacement for diamonds for the tough job is ceramic- as in a Blaze ceramic belt on my 1" x 42" Kalamazoo grinder! All steels bow down before the Kali!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Since no one else is posting this is in danger of becoming a soliloquy...But I want to make one more comment on diamonds. I'm basing my comments on some products that I use daily that don't actually exist yet in a form that you can purchase. So really I'm putting my apples up to BDL's oranges. And he's right in criticizing those oranges. But the products I've been using for the last year or so will soon be coming to market. I think they'll redefine the standard-of-care for aratos.

Actually, not just Aratos. This diamond substrate will cover the spectrum from about 60 grit up to around 1/4 micron (what's that, 80,000 grit?).

It's a great time to be an extreme sharpener! And a better time to be looking for that first kit./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## kmstl (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks Phaedrus,

So diamond plates for a given grit work as well as natural stones? I would assume this is the million dollar question.

Diamond plates wear slower than natural stones and don't need flattening? Can the grit change as you knock some of the diamond bits off the plate over time or dulling the diamonds?

If they can consistently reproduce the desired grit and produce a wide range of grits, then it sounds like long run it will come down to price and plate life vs natural stones.

Is Jende Industries the company that will be selling these new products? I'm assuming they will have sizing for the EP?

Though for me it could be a long time before I'm needing to replace stones. 

I did order and have just received my sharpening kit along with a MAC Pro chef and utility knife.  The chef knife was very sharp out of the box. The F&F on mine was very good. In my pinch grip the edge of the spine cuts into my hand a bit making it a little uncomfortable to hold compared to my Victoronix chef. I've adjusted my grip a little bit and I think it will remove that as an issue. I've watched all the youtube's on using the EP and am planning to take my first stab at sharpening some of my other knives this weekend.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Most diamond plates wear more quickly than most _synthetic_ stones, DMT diamond plates in particular. Natural stones are a third category.

Diamond plates do not need flattening. Yes, the diamonds are knocked off the plate during sharpening. An all diamond kit is a definite choice. Not a good one, but a definite choice. Diamond is a good choice for fast, coarse work, and for very fine polishing if you want both a high polish and a little "tooth." Diamond plates are pretty lousy for the intermediate levels; but some people swear by them nonetheless.

"Equivalence" is tough to nail down. Stones from different makers, especially stones of broadly different type, tend not to be very much like one another even at the same grit screen size. That's the point of _different_ stones in general, and different types in spades.

The switch to a sharp knife should produce less pressure between spine and finger. If it would make you more comfortable, you can round over the spine with sandpaper, or ease its angles with your EP. Either will work. Just make sure you want to keep the knife before doing it. If you pinch, use something very much like the grip I teach in Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch. Handle, hand and finger placement are all important; so is pressure.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Luis,

Sorry to take so long getting back to you. The point of a 15/10 double bevel on a MAC is maximizing its performance. You get the durability of a 15* blade with the wedging resistance of a 10* blade.

It's not easy to lay in exact, double bevels by hand. You can work around it by thinning the MAC back from 15* to your best guess at 10* up to your second highest grit, then sharpening a "micro-bevel" at your best guess at 15* - 20* with as few strokes as possible, all the way up to your highest bevel. When you sharpen the micro bevel, you only want to raise one, small burr.

If you're serious about an accurate and exact double, you need some sort of tool and jig sharpener -- like the EP. In any case, you'll need a fast, coarse stone. I suggest waiting until you have to thin anyway before trying either a micro bevel or a true double bevel. That's going to be around the sixth full sharpening.

BDL

PS. Do me a favor and respond to this post just to let me know you've read it. _Otra vez, lo siento para la tardanza en responder_.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

KMSTL said:


> Thanks Phaedrus,
> 
> So diamond plates for a given grit work as well as natural stones? I would assume this is the million dollar question.
> 
> ...


Jende will have them for sure. I'm reasonably certain that CKtG will also sell them. I was given a sample of the product in a 150 grit, mounted to an EP blank, about a year ago. Well, the blank was mis-cut a smidge too long for my EP (the sender didn't actually have an EP to do a go/no-go). My intention was to grind it down to fit but I set it aside and forgot about for many months. Once I stumbled up the thing a couple months ago I shortened it on the Kalamazoo and tried it out. I was floored! Much, much faster than the DMT's I'd been using. I raced to my PC to Skype the source of the "stone" to ask him just what the h3ll it was! So far I've roughed in bevels on many dull knives; I've completely rebeveled several CPM-154 blades and quite a few in VG-10. After dozen of knives it still cuts faster than my DMT. There's little wear that I can perceive. So far I can't say how long they'll last but at the price I think they'll be, they're just a bit over "disposable".

Ah, diamonds vs naturals; the ol' "Grits are grits" thing. There's a similar discussion going on over at FF. For the record I'm not a mystic, but I also don't subscribe to the "grits is grits" school of thought, either. Different media do create different edges. So far I've been mostly focused on diamonds for the coarse work because they do some things very well; namely, they cut quickly and stay flat. Diamonds are bonded to something, be it film or a steel sub-strate. So yeah, eventually diamonds will get pulled out of the matrix. And even though diamonds are very hard, it's probably true that over time they are worn down somewhat by steel. After all, running water carved the Grand Canyon, just not overnight.

As very very fine diamond tapes/plates/stones become available I will certainly try them out. Initially just on steels that are hard to polish with conventional means. This is somewhat theoretical since I don't think you can buy one "off the shelf" but if you had a chef's knife made of CPM-REX 121 most of the conventional stones out there would be useless to sharpen it- they just won't phase a 73 RC knife with that volume of hard carbides. But a diamond will.

Natural stones are intoxicating- they turn the "grits is grits" notion on its head. It's hard to imagine diamonds doing what they do but hey, I'll never say never.


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## knifesavers (Oct 5, 2011)

Phaedrus said:


> Jende will have them for sure. I'm reasonably certain that CKtG will also sell them. I was given a sample of the product in a 150 grit, mounted to an EP blank, about a year ago. Well, the blank was mis-cut a smidge too long for my EP (the sender didn't actually have an EP to do a go/no-go). My intention was to grind it down to fit but I set it aside and forgot about for many months. Once I stumbled up the thing a couple months ago I shortened it on the Kalamazoo and tried it out. I was floored! Much, much faster than the DMT's I'd been using. I raced to my PC to Skype the source of the "stone" to ask him just what the h3ll it was! So far I've roughed in bevels on many dull knives; I've completely rebeveled several CPM-154 blades and quite a few in VG-10. After dozen of knives it still cuts faster than my DMT. There's little wear that I can perceive. So far I can't say how long they'll last but at the price I think they'll be, they're just a bit over "disposable".


Certainly you will divulge the whole scoop when you can. I'm curious.

Jim


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't think it will be long at all.  Maybe I'll find out something later tonite.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Forgot to mention it should be available in EP sizing all the way up to 8" x 3", normal stone size.  If the demand is there it will probably also make it over to the WEPS (Wicked Edge Precision Sharpener).


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Just want to say about "grits is grits," experiencing the differences between stones of the same nominal grit is neither mystical nor fooling oneself. The differences result from a lot of different things, including the abrasive, the concentration of the abrasive, the substrate, the type of firing (if the stones are fired), etc., and are widely accepted as empirical fact. That there are differences is not at all controversial amongst sharpeners with any breadth of experience.

The other forum which Phaedrus mentioned is "Fred's Cutlery Forum" one of the forums in the "Foodie Forums." Fred is the only guy taking a hard-core, "grits is grits" stance that I see, and not only is he wrong, he doesn't practice what he preaches, and he has some hobby-horse issues on certain subjects and with certain people (including me for some reason).

Lately he's come to believe that he is a scientist and the ultimate empiricist. Alas, no.

To be fair to Fred, Phaedrus over-generalizes what's going on over there. In the grits is grits tantrum, Fred mostly reacted to a concept I raised ("reach") which has to do with how far a jump from lower to higher grit stones, where the higher grit stone can still efficiently polish out the lower grit's scratch and replace it with its own. Reach is a function of a stone's particular scratch (which Fred also argues is entirely grit-screen dependent), and speed. However, it's my experience, and widely acknowledged as well, that different stones of the same nominal grit size leave different amounts and type of scratch; that different stones of the same nominal grit sizes can have very different speeds; and consequently Fred's argument -- which is theoretical and not empirical -- crumbles.

Abrasive grit screen size is one of the most important ways to rate a stone. And I suppose _sometimes_ the differences between stones are overrated or imagined, but the fact that the moon isn't made of green cheese doesn't mean there's no moon. If Fred says he can't (or won't) perceive important differences between stones because those differences *can't* exist; that sadly says more about Fred than the stones.

BDL

PS. Science isn't about making super duper accurate measurement (nice, helpful, but not the heart of the matter), making conclusory, poorly supported statements, or even drawing final conclusions, and it's certainly not about denying the accuracy of observations with the denial based on a theory which cannot adapt to the observations. Rather, science is an open mind asking increasingly better questions.

Maybe I should post this over at Fred's but I can live without the controversy. Thanks for letting me vent.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, every one of my 1k stones (for example) is slightly different than every other one of a different brand.  The type of binder, the volume of abrasive and the shape of the individual granules all affect the results.  One of the main reasons I'm so fond of the Naniwa Chocera stones is that they work with pretty much every steel I've tried.  Some stones are more finicky.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

BTW, "reach" in the sense BDL uses it is a very real criterion and one that's very, very important to me.  Stones with "reach" will let you use less steps and save you time.  One such stone that I routinely rave about is the 2k Aotoshi ("Green Brick")- I can easily go from my coarsest stones (eg 150 diamond, 150 synthetic Ohmura, 120 GlassStone, DMT, etc) right to the GB.  Chocera stones are legendary for their reach.


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