# Post covid thoughts and predictions for hospitality industry?



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

With this summer looking almost normal, my thoughts are going back to what post covid hospitality might look like in 6-9 mths from now, and Im curious as to everyone elses thoughts on this.

Firstly, who has money to rebuild? 

The owners of the failed businesses dont, failed leases and failed bank loans will haunt them for quite some time to come. Banks certainly do, they survived covid quite nicely---thank you very much, but-tum, uhh, they sure didn't like loaning money to restaurants pre-covid, and I seriously doubt they would now. Of course if they (banks) could get some kind of a Gov't guarantee that something like covid would never happen again, or if they could get some kind of a gov't sweetheart fail-safe loan to back them up then maybe, yes, they would loan money. 
Meh, maybe I'm just being a pessimistic s.o.b., or maybe just a realistic one. Thoughts?

Now, breweries didn't have a hard time these last two years, they got money, and in the past many smaller craft breweries and even some larger ones it wasn't un-common for them to own one or two restaurants. In Switzerland in the '90's it was pretty common for brewereies to own dozens of restaurants and lease them out. A beer truck is refrigerated, and can certainly carry produce, meats, and frozen goods, but since brewereies are joined at the hip with soft drink bottling plants (co2 is a by product of beer...) those leases stipulate that the restaurant must carry these types of beer, those types of soft drinks, these types of frozen goods, those types of refrigerated goods. I dunno, something like that could happen here, or it could not. Thoughts?

Then there's the franchises and chains who make money by either selling hyper-inflated brand name ingredients, or by leasing out property to the franchisees, or both. Yes, some of them are feeling covid pretty bad, but they also own alot of real estate. Will they dump these properties on the market and re-invest in something else? Will they refinance thier franchisees? Or will they lease their properties out to the highest bidder and fahgettabout the franchisee? Thoughts?


----------



## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

Lots of good points there man. But since we are both pessimistic fucks let me add my 2 cents to the pot.

Winter is coming, no joke. People are panicking over the Japan Olympics being a super spreader event on my side of the pond. Things are fucked in Latin/south America and I would be surprised if things went over smoothly during winter up north. So I would say that we are not completely out of the woods yet. Wait out the winter and see.

Worst bit is that there's a market crash coming and most big money entities are putting money on hard assets(real state, houses, gold, etc to have assets after the reset). Hope that that is not the case but a stupid amount of inflation would be the best case scenario I think. So honestly best advise I could give is get as many nuts as you can and try to survive winter. Cause its gonna be a terrible one.

On the restaurant side of things I would think that to survive during this times meal delivery and ghost kitchens will be a big deal. Hopefully you guys get better delivery systems in the states, but they work like magic over here.
Most places won't necessarily make money with the delivery if they do it on the side, but it will help the bottom line and with product turnover. Deals, discounts and stuff like that after hours is a very real and very underused marketing channel.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It will be interesting! It does seem that carry out and delivery will continue to be a large part of sales. After being cooped up for a year, people want to go out, to see and be seen. Those restaurants that survived the pandemic will probably see a boom year or two.


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I don't think all of the US is post-covid. I suspect we'll see some surges still to come. Utah numbers and positivity have been doing a slow climb for a month. About 25% of cases is delta variant and vaccination has stalled hard.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, we're not done with it. As much as 30% of the population refuse to get vaxxed; that will prolong things quite a bit. The current research indicates that the current vaccines are effective against the known mutations including Delta, and it's a near-certainty that boosters will roll out by the end of the year.

Economically it could be a mixed bag as well. Moratoriums on evictions and suspension of student loans are both expiring soon which could trigger a tsunami of evictions and bankruptcies.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well yeah, but "up north" we're at 75% for first shots and 25% for second shots nationally, with some provinces having higher vaccination rates. Strangely, paul-ticians from both US and Canada are screaming for the border to open up again.

What I'm more concerned about is how the hospitality industry will look like in a year from now. Covid or not, life goes on, and with every disaster there's people with foresight and money to change things that were once taken for granted. Will these changes benefit the hospitality industry? Or will these changes worsen the Hospitality industry?


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> Well yeah, but "up north" we're at 75% for first shots and 25% for second shots nationally, with some provinces having higher vaccination rates. Strangely, paul-ticians from both US and Canada are screaming for the border to open up again.
> 
> What I'm more concerned about is how the hospitality industry will look like in a year from now. Covid or not, life goes on, and with every disaster there's people with foresight and money to change things that were once taken for granted. Will these changes benefit the hospitality industry? Or will these changes worsen the Hospitality industry?


Overall: Worsen the industry
Short term: Benefit for restaurants currently still able to operate.

The short term I believe is the gain from the culling of restaurants that did not make it through the pandemic for various reasons. This should naturally equate to increased sales to places that are still open and increase profits for them.

The long term negative factors include the current rising inflation on goods and services for restaurants, the increased costs of labor even though there will be a massive pool of extra labor from the remnants of places that went under.

I think the industry will bounce back but I don't think it will be as fast as a year from now.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think the labor crunch will tighten, not improve. The pandemic created a whole new class of WFH jobs that didn't exist before, and many of those jobs will stick around as they both improve employee retention and save employers money. Entry level restaurant workers were already tempted by "easy" jobs in call centers. Now that many of those jobs can be done from home I think people will flee the kitchen in droves.

On the bright side, those stupid/passionate enough to stay might see better wages and working conditions. Who knows, maybe we'll see that conversion of hospitality work into a professional class as @foodpump always advocates for.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Looking through craigslist, Indeed, and other websites that cater to the hospitality industry I am seeing changes. Firstly, there are ALOT of employers looking for staff, some of these are hotels and large restaurant chains/groups, one group of restaurants claims to spend enormous amounts of money on head hunters. Gone are those "perks" of " discounted staff meals" and " relaxed dress code" and instead are real benefits of medical and dental coverage after 3 mths-- something unheard of in the Cnd hospitality industry 2 years ago. Tip sharing for all staff is becoming a lot more prevalent too.

Lets see what this fall brings.... most of the colleges and universities here are clinging on to " online learning" because its, well... cheap and easy!


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Online learning can be awesome. When I finished up work for my degrees I did a mix of classroom and online work; often I learned more online. Obviously some stuff requires hands-on training but stuff that's just information is often better done virtually.

Health insurance- that would be a real revolution!


----------



## chefross (May 5, 2010)

I see a mixed bag with regards to our industry.
I see culinary school graduates looking for work, but the places they apply needs experienced help, while those that are experienced and laid off due to Covid, don't want to go back for the measly wages and hard work.
I theorize that the young see food service as too hard. 
I see it everyday at the grocery store. The young wear their attitude with a vengeance. They don't want to be there and you can see it in their work ethic.
Unless our industry re-invents itself for the 21st century, we are going to see more places close, more take-out and more delivery.


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I agree, the Restaurant Business has changed for ever. Only the strong will survive. I see fast food being just that. Companies will design them with multi lane drive-thru windows. This isn't that big of a deal, the inside table in a fast food restaurant was really just like what a picnic bench is to a park. 
Casual dining will have to change the FOH using less labor and using runners to deliver your food to the table. We will be ordering from a table computer and also paying for the meal the Same way. You'll see more pick-up parking spaces for fast service. You may also see a drive up windows for pick-up. I don't think you'll see anyone blasting out of the Outback Steak House side door on roller-skates telling you " Here's your Medium Rare steak that Outback serves Rare. 
Fine dining will stay the same. We all grew up with celebrating special occasions and that will never change. The fine dining experience became more than a few times a year even. We enjoy being pampered and that will never change either. 

Food trucks will be all over the place with pods popping up everywhere. They will be well organized and a fun place to have in the city. They will be well lite with bathrooms and covered seating. I feel we are going through a new era of just wanting good food without the frills. 

As we all drive around our city, we will see many more out of Business and For Sale signs. 

I feel the Virus will become more like a real bad case of the flu. The Virus will be part of our lives for many years to come. Along with the yearly Flu shot we will also have to get our Yearly Covid booster shot. There will be out breaks with many people still not getting vaccinated. 

There will be more people moving to the suburbs and even off the grid. People now realize it's up to them to keep their families safe. You can't control what happens around you if you don't have full control. 

Working from home is here to stay. Employers won't really want it, employees will demand it. 

Welcome to the new reality.......


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

phaedrus said:


> The pandemic created a whole new class of WFH jobs that didn't exist before, and many of those jobs will stick around as they both improve employee retention and save employers money


I agree to this but I suspect it will not result in increased WFH jobs for Americans as companies will realize if they are paying people to work from home and not come to a physical office why not just outsource it to a cheaper labor market anyways.



chefbillyb said:


> There will be more people moving to the suburbs and even off the grid.


Yes the housing market here is inflating something fierce. All the people who are able to WFH from the city are realizing they can get a lot more bang for their buck by coming further north.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Seoul Food said:


> I agree to this but I suspect it will not result in increased WFH jobs for Americans as companies will realize if they are paying people to work from home and not come to a physical office why not just outsource it to a cheaper labor market anyways.


I think they already have done this as much as they're able. But some companies experienced a huge backlash and had to reverse course to a degree. Consumers don't see source code to it doesn't matter to them where a programmer is. But there can be a lot of anger if they're forced to deal with a CS rep they can't understand. HSBC had this problem when they moved some call centers to India (and Manila IIRC).

Outsourcing an entire office generally only makes sense if it's a pretty large one. It does depend in the industry. My brother and sister have both done WFH for a long time. Sis does Medicaid billing which has a lot of regulatory compliance components that would be tough to offshore.


----------



## toffee (May 2, 2016)

Hmm.... I guess it depends on the different cases. Where I am and specifically my new job they are much more busy than pre covid oddly enough so everyone's getting money. It is the lack of employees that is hurting everyone where I am at the moment. Mostly everyone opened up to go orders or curb side. A lot of people started using that option too. But as for the future I think it is either gonna open up to jobs realizing that people wont return to work without the hospitality industry offering more to make it worth peoples time. Or majority of all food businesses will shut down for whichever reasons. I think its a 50/50 chance of both.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

toffee said:


> But as for the future I think it is either gonna open up to jobs realizing that people wont return to work without the hospitality industry offering more to make it worth peoples time


I agree but sometimes it's like trying to get blood from a stone. If you are a private restaurant with the normal profit margins you can't afford to increase wages to combat inflation and mandated minimum wages and add benefits like 401Ks, insurance and the like on top of that. At a certain point it won't be worth staying open.


----------



## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

foodpump said:


> Well yeah, but "up north" we're at 75% for first shots and 25% for second shots nationally, with some provinces having higher vaccination rates. Strangely, paul-ticians from both US and Canada are screaming for the border to open up again.
> 
> What I'm more concerned about is how the hospitality industry will look like in a year from now. Covid or not, life goes on, and with every disaster there's people with foresight and money to change things that were once taken for granted. Will these changes benefit the hospitality industry? Or will these changes worsen the Hospitality industry?


Well I see the problem being more the countries around you(or that you would be opening the borders too) that are not vaccinated being the problem here more than the inside situation.

But the interesting part would be the restaurants wouldn't it?

I'll throw my hat to the pool saying the the waning workforce and issues staffing a restaurant are going to push for slimmer and more specialized menus. More efficiency and less BS would be an ideal take from all this mess. An ideal scenario to me and it probably won't happen but one can dream.


----------



## toffee (May 2, 2016)

Seoul Food said:


> I agree but sometimes it's like trying to get blood from a stone. If you are a private restaurant with the normal profit margins you can't afford to increase wages to combat inflation and mandated minimum wages and add benefits like 401Ks, insurance and the like on top of that. At a certain point it won't be worth staying open.


Absolutely right. Which case itll be the other 50%, everyone shuts down. It is such an unfortunate circumstance


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Seoul Food said:


> I agree but sometimes it's like trying to get blood from a stone. If you are a private restaurant with the normal profit margins you can't afford to increase wages to combat inflation and mandated minimum wages and add benefits like 401Ks, insurance and the like on top of that. At a certain point it won't be worth staying open.


What I learned with my catering and my chocolate business was this:
If Johnny across the street is selling apples, I'm gonna sell oranges.
Make something unique so that others can't beat or match you on the price. You'll never last a year if you're constantly looking over your shoulder and crapping your pants because the other guy down the street is 95 cents cheaper than you.

British Columbia just raised minimum wage to 15..00/ hr. It took me over 30 years to learn that inflation is just part of life. If there was no inflation there would be stagnation, which is much, much worse.


----------



## sabra_1 (Jan 27, 2002)

chefross said:


> I see a mixed bag with regards to our industry.
> I see culinary school graduates looking for work, but the places they apply needs experienced help, while those that are experienced and laid off due to Covid, don't want to go back for the measly wages and hard work.
> I theorize that the young see food service as too hard.
> I see it everyday at the grocery store. The young wear their attitude with a vengeance. They don't want to be there and you can see it in their work ethic.
> Unless our industry re-invents itself for the 21st century, we are going to see more places close, more take-out and more delivery.


----------



## sabra_1 (Jan 27, 2002)

I agree with a lot of your thoughts.Japanese Olympics will be telling.
We are going to have to learn to live with Covid.I live in New Zealand,we are lucky,our hospo industry picked up fairly quickly.
U.S.A. and U.K.(where I was born) have and are still having a hard time.
Worldwide I feel the industry is in dire straights.
Who wants to buy a restaurant/food business now? Yet we are short of chefs here.Like some of you said the wages are crap,who can survive,when there is a lockdown,who can afford the loss of wages until the restaurant re-opens or then decides to close up shop.
A lot more meals being delivered,but that's an added cost and more labour,when margins are tight.As another chef said "People need to see and be seen" as we are social beings and love atmosphere.Then again people are afraid of the new mutations in covid,now delta strain another worry.NZ has been clear for awhile,then Australian travelled to Wellington and has the new delta strain.Wellington is now in lockdown,but the virus is contained.The rest of the country open as usual
Come to N.Z.we need Chefs and front of house.Good luck everyone,but hey! chefs are tough look at how hard we have all worked. In N.Z. we say Kia kaha (stay strong)


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> What I learned with my catering and my chocolate business was this:
> If Johnny across the street is selling apples, I'm gonna sell oranges.
> Make something unique so that others can't beat or match you on the price. You'll never last a year if you're constantly looking over your shoulder and crapping your pants because the other guy down the street is 95 cents cheaper than you.
> 
> British Columbia just raised minimum wage to 15..00/ hr. It took me over 30 years to learn that inflation is just part of life. If there was no inflation there would be stagnation, which is much, much worse.


I agree but it doesn't matter how good your product or service is if you hit a breaking point of consumers not willing to pay the added costs to keep those good employees and you as an owner cannot afford to eat the costs of profits for the same reasons.

Inflation is natural and not necessarily always a bad thing, but when inflation is greatly outpacing other areas like wages it is more of an issue. Sure that line cook makes 2 bucks more an hour now but the gas to put in his car went up 30%, food 50% and his housing or health insurance even higher. There's always going to be winners and losers but it feels like our industry is forecasting the losing end of things.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

sabra_1 said:


> Then again people are afraid of the new mutations in covid,now delta strain another worry.NZ has been clear for awhile,then Australian travelled to Wellington and has the new delta strain.Wellington is now in lockdown,but the virus is contained.


Lockdowns?? No. The politicians are afraid of losing their power so they are using the delta and other variants as an excuse. What do you have, one test positive? I've been noticing what goes on there and it's disgusting.

In the US we are told that the vaccines will take care of the variants and they are using delta to scare those holdouts to get vaccinated. They (mainly the teachers union) want to get all kids vaccinated before the start of the school year which is controversial given their age and possible side effects when weighed against them actually needing it in the first place.

One thing has become abundantly clear and that is this whole thing is purely political. Some of the things going on in the world today go way beyond being pandemic related. To be honest, I'm scared. I'm scared as an American that our people would roll over and allow themselves to be so easily controlled.

-Hal


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> Lockdowns?? No. The politicians are afraid of losing their power so they are using the delta and other variants as an excuse. What do you have, one test positive? I've been noticing what goes on there and it's disgusting.
> 
> In the US we are told that the vaccines will take care of the variants and they are using delta to scare those holdouts to get vaccinated. They (mainly the teachers union) want to get all kids vaccinated before the start of the school year which is controversial given their age and possible side effects when weighed against them actually needing it in the first place.
> 
> ...


I agree about being skeptical of the Delta variant. We've been hearing nothing but variants since the widespread vaccination process began. I know I am a layman in this but I don't understand how a variant can pop up that is more deadly each time but also just happens to be covered by the original Covid-19 shot? I thought the whole selling point behind these variants was that they were new deadly mutated strains? And they just happen to be popping up in low vaccinated areas? Really? I mean even strong proponents of everything that has been done or forced to be done by now should admit that doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> I thought the whole selling point behind these variants was that they were new deadly mutated strains? And they just happen to be popping up in low vaccinated areas? Really? I mean even strong proponents of everything that has been done or forced to be done by now should admit that doesn't pass the smell test.


This is why people are starting to come to the realization that the CDC and WHO have no credibility. They are controlled by the government along with most main stream media.

I don't think I mentioned this here, but I'm old enough to remember the polio epidemic back in the 50's. I was in third grade, I remember all of us lining up in the hallway and filing one-by-one into the nurses office where the school doctor administered the Salk vaccine. The entire program was privately administered by the drug companies and the March of Dimes. The government was not involved. The result was that polio was for all intents eliminated by 1960. There was no CDC, WHO, masks, lockdowns and main stream media terrorizing the population or the s*** show we are experiencing today.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ummm... so are you pro vaccine or anti vaccine? Big difference between Polio and Covid, Polio, I believe is/was a water borne disease.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> Ummm... so are you pro vaccine or anti vaccine? Big difference between Polio and Covid, Polio, I believe is/was a water borne disease.


I think an important distinction needs to be made in regards to this. I feel like people who whole heartedly support covid vaccines, even forced ones are lumping any hesitant covid vaccines recipients in with "anti vaxxers" to ruin any credibility. I know plenty of people who support multiple vaccines like MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, HPV, ect. but just have some doubts or concerns about the covid vaccine. And I believe it is a legitimate point of view and their right to do so. Most people I have talked to who don't want the covid vaccine aren't talking about micro chips from Bill Gates or any of that stuff but rather just that they kind of have a wait and see attitude because they do not feel satisfied that there is enough data to sway their decision. Any yes I realize there is some data out there but when compared to the levels usually present for a vaccine, no there is not enough no matter what light you try to present it in.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

foodpump said:


> Ummm... so are you pro vaccine or anti vaccine? Big difference between Polio and Covid, Polio, I believe is/was a water borne disease.


Been vaccinated for many months now, both myself and my wife. Polio is a fecal transmitted virus that is highly contagious from touching surfaces or contaminated water and food. It mainly affected small children and kids probably because hygiene is not in their vocabulary at those ages. It's much more contagious than covid. The Salk polio vaccine was only in trial for about six months before they went public with it.


Seoul Food said:


> I think an important distinction needs to be made in regards to this. I feel like people who whole heartedly support covid vaccines, even forced ones are lumping any hesitant covid vaccines recipients in with "anti vaxxers" to ruin any credibility. I know plenty of people who support multiple vaccines like MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, HPV, ect. but just have some doubts or concerns about the covid vaccine. And I believe it is a legitimate point of view and their right to do so. Most people I have talked to who don't want the covid vaccine aren't talking about micro chips from Bill Gates or any of that stuff but rather just that they kind of have a wait and see attitude because they do not feel satisfied that there is enough data to sway their decision. Any yes I realize there is some data out there but when compared to the levels usually present for a vaccine, no there is not enough no matter what light you try to present it in.


As I said above, the polio vaccine was only tested for six months before the rollout.

I agree with anyone's personal decision not to be vaccinated. It's their life. The thing is it's been so tainted by politics and social media that I can certainly understand not knowing what to do. I firmly believe that if the vaccination program was handled by the medical community and your own doctor recommended and provided it, things would be much different.

And I should add that at this point it probably won't make one hell of a difference if the remainder of people get vaccinated or not. Like I said, the big push is on for kids which I don't believe is a prudent thing for those under 12.

What I believe is happening here is that the United Federation of Teachers (a powerful teachers union) went to the CDC and told them to recommend vaccinations for kids (else they will strike) because many teachers themselves refuse to get vaccinated. So we should put our kids at risk for them.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

halb said:


> As I said above, the polio vaccine was only tested for six months before the rollout.


I'm not sure where you got that number, when I looked it up it stated that the polio vaccine wasn't deemed safe to use en mass to the public until three years after the initial test.



halb said:


> What I believe is happening here is that the United Federation of Teachers (a powerful teachers union) went to the CDC and told them to recommend vaccinations for kids (else they will strike) because many teachers themselves refuse to get vaccinated. So we should put our kids at risk for them.


 That may be but my wife is a teacher and we know a hand full that think the opposite of this and would never want to vaccinate our kids or others at this point. The cost benefit relation for them is not persuading enough.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Handful is right. Just the fact that the CDC agreed to make policy based on politics and not science is damning. This is also why they made kids wear covid masks in schools all day. Teachers are afraid and didn't want to go back to work. They had no regard for the kids. That's child abuse.

So to get back to the original question, who in their right mind is going to invest money in a business that can get shut down at any time by some nut job politician listening to other nut job politicians?

The only time this will end and we can all get back to work is when we take that power away from them. Our health decisions need to be made by us and only us.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

Seoul Food said:


> I'm not sure where you got that number, when I looked it up it stated that the polio vaccine wasn't deemed safe to use en mass to the public until three years after the initial test


"In 1954, clinical trials using the Salk vaccine and a placebo began on nearly two million American schoolchildren. In April 1955, it was announced that the vaccine was effective and safe, and a nationwide inoculation campaign began."


----------



## greg (Dec 8, 1999)

If the discussion of vaccines is going to devolve into accusing teachers of child abuse, you're going to have to stop discussing vaccines. Stick to the thread topic, please.


----------



## halb (May 25, 2015)

greg said:


> If the discussion of vaccines is going to devolve into accusing teachers of child abuse, you're going to have to stop discussing vaccines. Stick to the thread topic, please.


I agree that this isn't the place for that discussion. Suffice it to say that I only mentioned teachers to illustrate how this has degraded us as human beings.


----------



## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It's interesting that the panic over polio verged on frenzy despite killing only a small fraction of the number killed by Covid-19. It was one of the most feared diseases of the 20th century.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Polio left a lot of children disabled for life. The point I wanted to make is that polio was/is a water borne disease


Seoul Food said:


> I agree but it doesn't matter how good your product or service is if you hit a breaking point of consumers not willing to pay the added costs to keep those good employees and you as an owner cannot afford to eat the costs of profits for the same reasons.
> 
> Inflation is natural and not necessarily always a bad thing, but when inflation is greatly outpacing other areas like wages it is more of an issue. Sure that line cook makes 2 bucks more an hour now but the gas to put in his car went up 30%, food 50% and his housing or health insurance even higher. There's always going to be winners and losers but it feels like our industry is forecasting the losing end of things.


Our industry has always had its share of those who are at the losing end of things.
Fifteen years ago I opened up my chocolate biz in a brand new building. Unit next to me was all set to open up as a bubble tea place-didn't make inspection because he didn't have grease trap. Two months later he opens 4 months later he closes-couldn't make even rent with just bubble tea. Every 6-12 mths the place changes, first Thai, then Bolivian meat pies, then Apple pies, Poke, Sushi, you name it. Some failed due to lack of capitol, some due to ignorance of codes and laws, some couldn't cook.

What I'm trying to say is this: Just as there are men and women who should never, ever become parents, people who should never posses matches or lighters, there are people who should never open or run restaurants. Cruel, but true.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Oops, that opening bit about Polio was part of a deleted draft. Sorry.


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I really think it becomes a matter of doing whats best for the Herd. IMHO, I pick the place I want to make a living, bring up my family and live among the people I choose. My family and myself got the vaccine to protect ourselves and the people in the Herd. If I don't think this method is proper for myself, my family or the herd, I should look at getting out of the Herd.
I see some people working in Hospitals not being vaccinated. How would all of us feel, during a pandemic about going to a Hospital and having our loved ones get the virus and die. If I don't agree with the vaccine, I shouldn't put the Herd in jeopardy. I should get away from the Herd and live happily ever after living off grid with my own views of how I want to live my life.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

chefbillyb said:


> I really think it becomes a matter of doing whats best for the Herd. IMHO, I pick the place I want to make a living, bring up my family and live among the people I choose. My family and myself got the vaccine to protect ourselves and the people in the Herd. If I don't think this method is proper for myself, my family or the herd, I should look at getting out of the Herd.
> I see some people working in Hospitals not being vaccinated. How would all of us feel, during a pandemic about going to a Hospital and having our loved ones get the virus and die. If I don't agree with the vaccine, I shouldn't put the Herd in jeopardy. I should get away from the Herd and live happily ever after living off grid with my own views of how I want to live my life.


I agree to a certain extent but at the end of the day the herd be damned, my health and my families is all I really care about. My view is it is not my place to go around telling people what they should or shouldn't be doing in relation to their own personal health choices. I can agree or disagree with said choices but at the end of the day it is none of my business. We are not talking about a small percentage of people here who want nothing to do with the vaccines, and based on the available data in a cost benefit for the individual I see how many people may not want the vaccine or may want to at least wait for more results before taking it which seems perfectly reasonable especially given what Pfizer is trying to pull now.


----------



## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> What I'm trying to say is this: Just as there are men and women who should never, ever become parents, people who should never posses matches or lighters, there are people who should never open or run restaurants. Cruel, but true.


I don't think it's cruel at all, it's 100% true and from the looks of how this sentiment is going oh boy are we in trouble.


----------



## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Seoul Food said:


> I agree to a certain extent but at the end of the day the herd be damned, my health and my families is all I really care about. My view is it is not my place to go around telling people what they should or shouldn't be doing in relation to their own personal health choices. I can agree or disagree with said choices but at the end of the day it is none of my business. We are not talking about a small percentage of people here who want nothing to do with the vaccines, and based on the available data in a cost benefit for the individual I see how many people may not want the vaccine or may want to at least wait for more results before taking it which seems perfectly reasonable especially given what Pfizer is trying to pull now.


I agree also with you. there are many many people who don't get the yearly Flu shot. That only kills about 40K a year. and most of the time with most of them being Seniors. For me the keyword here is Pandemic. I see people talking about not getting vaccinated until two families members die from the virus. Thats a hell of a time to change your mind. IMHO, If I don't agree with the herd, I get the hell out of the herd.


----------

