# Your 2006 Vegetable Garden



## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

It's that time of year! 

What will you be growing in your garden? 
Trying anything new? 
Are you starting from seeds or starting with plants? 
What are your year to year favorites? 
Anything you're particularly looking forward to? 
Anything you'd like help with?


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

After last year I had decided to cut back the size of my garden and grow fewer veggies. But as soon as it started to warm up I changed my mind somewhat. I'm still a little iffy about what to grow this year, but I will be on my second year of the Alaska Bountea treatment and I am also using John Jeavons Bio Intensive techniques. Over the course of time I hope to have soil that's alive and can grow the type of quality plants that my friend John Evans, and John Jeavon can grow.
So this year along with the usual Thyme, Rosemary, Oregano I am going to go with Goliath and Roma tomatoes, Jalapenos, Salsa, Poblano and Goliath Bell peppers. Japanese Eggplant, Beets, Onions, a giant sunflower, some Lettuce and perhaps some Sweet potatoes and a pumpkin. I will of course document my progress and track it from last year.
Oh yeah, I will also be planting a Blue Spruce in honor of my father, a couple of Dwarf fruit trees, and I hope to make a wet garden to grow some Wasabi roots!


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

I have several flats of tomatoes and peppers started from seeds, but am having problems. After the first set of true leaves they all just stopped growing  . I think it was the shock of some sudden unusually cold weather. Then, just when the weather was calming down and I'd fed everyone a dilute solution of fertilizer, the winds came and knocked down one of the flats, destroying all the plants in it    . Right now the rest of them are cowering under an overhang until the latest rainstorm passes. Sigh.
Still have some carrots in the ground and nothing seems to kill my huge rosemary plant. In a few weeks I'll start some basil and restart some Italien Parsley and bolt-resistent lettuces. Fingers crossed!


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Last year was my first year with a plot in our community garden. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that people were swiping my produce... Herbs and lettuces did well, but the tomatoes & peppers walked.

This year my husband and I are buying a house. We'll know for sure if it's a "go" tomorrow night. In anticipation, I bought the following seeds from rareseeds.com:

Amish Deer Tongue lettuce
Brandywine Tomatoes
Albino Bullnose Sweet Peppers
A Euro Mesclun blend
New Zealand Spinach
Chinese 5 color Hot peppers
Ancho San Luis Peppers
Harlequin Marigolds (to keep the pests away.. I hope)
Cherokee Purple Tomatoes
Broad Leaf Sage
Giant of Italy Parsley
Genovese Basil

If buying the house falls apart.. I will try to plant these in the community garden.. I sure hope that I have a private place to do this.. then I'll take a stab at composting, etc.. If the veggies do well, I'd like to be able to eat them myself.. and not donate them to the guys who hang out in there with cases of beer.

I think I'm starting this planting stuff a little late... seeds are still in packets.. but this house buying stuff is stressful, and I haven't been able to bring myself to set aside the time.

(fingers crossed)

P


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## diane (Mar 24, 2006)

New Zealand spinach? Would that be silverbeet? If so you will find it an absolute doddle. My kids had one plant each they picked from when they were kids, we used to go outside and pick dinner, they each had a little basket. For their Own Pot. It was a lot of fun.


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## marzoli (Nov 17, 2000)

What is a doddle?
Pardon my asking, but I lecture my students all the time about asking questions when they don't know what something means, so . . . what's a doddle?


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

From "everything2.com": And considering that Diane appears to be from New Zealand, I suspect this it true.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm not sure if it's silverbeet. The packet's at home. The seeds are huge, though. So far the deer tongue and the mesclun are the only things that have germinated (it's only been 4 days).

I'm a little worried, though. Some of the seeds look a little fuzzy. I'm using peat plugs, and I'm worried that I overwatered them and it's mold.. but I heard that overwatering plugs is hard to do.

House closing is tentatively set for May 26th! hopefully everything goes into the ground that weekend! I want to do that before we even move in any furniture.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Porkchops,

Avoid using peat pots, especially if they're made out of synthetic materials. Your problem is not uncommon and if they do sprout, the roots often do not leave the environment of the peat pot when planted in soil which is not healthy for the plant. At the same time, be patient. Unless your soil temperature is at 80-85 degrees, germination may take longer...


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## crazytatt (Mar 5, 2006)

I will be growing some of my "staples" some from seed, some from clones preserved through the off season...

Japenesse Egplant, seeded
PattyPans', seeded
Tiger Squash, seeded
Hierloom 'Maters( thanks be to mom)
Golden Boy tomatoes, looking forward big time to em'
Strawberries, residiual
I'm hoping to see results from a Kiwi plant that is almost 5yrs old now. Last season it threw little "buds" that looked like kiwis, but no bigger then a marble, and were REALLY bitter. I will say that it has vined all over everything like a monster.

My firsts, and I hope the results/yield will be wort it:
Edible Orchids, brought up from my boy in FLA.(from clippings)
And I am going to try some potatoes, blues, and sweets, both from clippings.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

This is my first time using the peat plugs.. it was at someone's suggestion at work. I won't do it again, now that I know, but I'm hoping that I can get through this season with them.... since they're already planted and all.

If nothing happens within about a week, I may go plant some additional seeds in soil. Unfortunately, I've got very little space to put anything, let alone a whole pallet of seedlings until we move.

I read online that some hot pepper seeds can take a month to germinate. I wonder how long I should give everything.. before I try soil.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Porkchops,

If your soil temperature is between 80-85 degrees, well over 90% of your seeds of all varieties should germinate within a week. If you did not score the bottom of the peat pots, you might consider doing so. This way the roots won't get trapped.

If you're in doubt about germination, go ahead and sow some extra seeds in the dirt now. The worst that can happen is you have some extra plants. If you end up with extra, you can always kill the weaker ones, leave them in and compare which do better (the peat or direct sown), or give some away.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks Mudbug!

I'm not sure what the temp is in the soil. I do have them under a 60 watt grow light during the day, which I think generates some heat. At night, I turn the light off. I wonder if I should keep the light on 24 hrs a day to keep it more toasty. Any opinion?

Thx!

P


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

If you're growing them inside, then your soil temp is probably the same temperature as the room. The light will provide a bit of heat, but not enough to get the soil to 85 degrees. If you really want to, you can go so far as to get a Seedling Heat Mat.

I don't know where you are, what you're trying to plant, or what your outside temps are, but you can always sow seed in a seed tray that has a clear cover. This creates a mini greenhouse effect and if outside, can warm up nicely in the sun.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

I live in Hoboken, NJ. Someone told me that the last frost date is the 2nd week in May.

I think you're right about it not being hot enough. I decided that there was a draft blowing onto the three trays that I have, so I've tried to remedy that. I do have them covered with a clear plastic top, so I hope that's helping to keep it toasty, although I try to let them air out a little bit each day. I read somewhere online that doing that might help reduce the chances of developing mold.

I'm going out of town for the rest of the weekend, so I don't anticipate having time to plant in soil trays for a week or so, but I'm hoping that I've helped to up the temperature a little bit.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

P


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Not that you all need a play-by-play.. but I'm very excited. Keeping a grow light on 24 hrs a day has helped keep my seedtrays warm enough so that things are starting to grow.

Seedlings that are making an appearance:
Ancho Chilis (as of last night... yay!)
Albino Peppers
Brandywine Tomatoes
Genovese Basil
Deer tongue Lettuce
Mesclun Blend

Still waiting on:
Chinese 5 color Hot Peppers
Sage
Parsley
Purple Cherokee Tomatoes
New Zealand Spinach

I've read that the latters can be slow to germinate... so I'm trying to be patient. I'm watering everything with a spray bottle, to hopefully prevent overwatering.


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## phoebe (Jul 3, 2002)

Congratulations! :bounce: It really is exciting when they start to come up. 

One caution though. Seedlings as well as mature plants need some down-time, so you don't need to keep them in the light all the time. In fact, it's not a good idea at all. At most, 16 hours a day of light for sprouted seedlings is more than enough. Some folks put their lights on timers so they don't have to think about it.


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## diane (Mar 24, 2006)

I fear I may have misled you Porkchop. What is now Pork and Puha, was once Pakeha and Puha. aka NZ spinach. Pakeha was also known as long white pig, but canabalism has fled our shores, albeit not until fairly well into 20th century. Maoris didn't like us much anyway, said we were to salty. Silverbeet may be what you call chard. We use only the inner tender leaves, and the plant keeps growing. They make delightful roll ups, just blanched and filled, maybe baked in a modicom of stock appropriate to the filling chosen. Do not waste that stock if there is any left, it is a great addition to the gravy, like pea water. Or soup. Great plain,steamed with s&P, or chopped cooked and sour cream and and nutmeg added. Makes a great liner for savory pies flans quiches. I am sure it is a plant you would enjoy, if you can find it. You would need about 6 to twelve, depending on your family size or need, to keep you in those loverly inner leaves.


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## cloudybutnice (May 20, 2006)

Tomatoes, peas, broad beans, carrots, radish, sweetcorn all from seed.
Onions and shallots from sets.
I leave garlic in all the year round and spring onions.
Also strawberries, rhubarb ,asparagus. raspberries, blackcurrants and apples.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok.. We closed on the house (yay), and I've been poking around. We've got a bunch of strawberries that are starting to ripen, and rhubarb. The rhubarb stalks are already pink. I'm not totally sure, but I'm thinking that it's close to harvesting.. but I really don't know much abour rhubarb. Should I wait for the strawberries and pick both, and go for making a pie?

Oh, and the seller's idea of composting is to throw whole pieces of fruit or vegetables to rot in the garden. It sort of gives me the willies, but I'm going to till it all, chop up all that's there, and start a compost bin tomorrow. So far in the produce graveyard (aka raised planter) I see potatoes, grapefruit and squash... hanging out amongst the ripening fruit.

It's going to be a long day tomorrow....

P


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Did you buy my Bro-in-laws house? He also did that but tossed in egg shells and pieces of old meat  

I finally finished planting and tomorrow I give another Bountea treatment abd it's off to the races.
I ended up planting Strawberries, Silver and woody thyme, basil, sage, Giant Bell peppers, Cubanelles, jalapenos, 1 yellow sweet pepper and yellow wax peppers. Goliath and roma tomatoes, brussel sprouts, onions, broccoli, musk melons, black beauty eggplants and spinach, and Blue Lake green beans.
Got my fingers crossed!


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that method though it may be unpleasant to look at. Many people bury their kitchenscraps in the garden regularly and report a wonderful abundunance of worms in the following months which are fabulous for gardens. Tilling will incorporate that organic matter into that soil where it will be of more benefit.

How large a site is it? Will you be creating raised beds? What will you be planting?


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

The whole idea of composting is to bury the items to create a decaying, thriving bacterial and fungal colony. The decaying will create heat which is the byproduct of the actual process of decay. The heat will in turn kill off any pathogens created and create a wonderfully organic compost which will create a thriving, living soil full of healthy fungi, bacteria, worms etc. 
Leaving food to rot on top of the ground does nothing more than to invite unwanted, insects, animals and bacteria. The best it might do is to enhance the top 1/4" of the soil. Simply covering with a little dirt will make all the difference in the world.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

I think it depends on your definition of "composting" which in this case is very human. Those "insects, animals and bacteria" are natural elements of composting, though less likely depending on the type of composting which is occuring.

In nature, fruit, vegetables that are not harvested (assuming that it is grown unintentionally) falls to the ground all on it's own and lands to rest on top of the ground to rot. The difference is that if it is on top of the ground, it is anaerobic and if it is buried it is aerobic. The end result is the same in that it adds organic matter back to the soil. If you bury one piece of fruit under 1/4 inch of soil, there will not be enough heat generated to kill off anything which does not benefit the soil. You need at the very least three cubic feet of equal amounts of browns, greens, water and oxygen to achieve literal "heat".

Here's what I did when I learned about composting and really focused on on it the first time years ago. I did my research, then spring came.

I had 11 large garbage bags full of pin oak leaves from the fall before. They were huge but they had broken down a bit thru winter.

I had fresh grass clippings from a neighbor.

I had some leaf mold from under a huge pile of leaves.

I had gumballs from the gumball tree from a neighbor from the previous fall.

I had maybe five gallons of compost from another source.

I lightly layered everything by literally loosening everything and sprinkling it in my 5x5 wire bin. Sprinkled grass evenly along the bottom, sprinkled leaves evenly on top, repeated a few times, sprinkled compost to distribute beneficial organisms, repeated grass, repeated leaves, sprinkled leaf mold, repeated grass, repeated leaves, sprinkled gumballs throughout the center and kitchen scraps as well, repeated grass, repeated leaves, etc until I was out of material. My pile reached a good four and a half feet high. Was light and fluffy because nothing was compacted so plenty of oxygen available throughout. Watered over the top with a hose. It only took a couple of hours to do everything.

Within a couple of days I could see the top of the pile was visibly getting lower based off the horizontal wires of the fencing I was using. So I went outside to stick my hand in the center. It was much warmer than I ever imagined since this was my first experience - it was in fact - hot to the touch.

A couple of more days and it continued to lower. I stuck a digital themometer probe from the kitchen into the center of the compost pile and it read 165F. Success! Although had I known about beneficial organisms being killed off 155F - 160F and higher, I would have moved the center portions out and turned the edges in a bit. Anyway, I had usable compost within four weeks!

The key is *balance* and even distribution of all materials whenever possible of greens, browns, water, and oxygen.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Mudbug you are absolutely correct in the rest of your post. My point I think in this case is not a point of definition of composting, more to the point I think is locale. We're talking about a suburban setting here, in a neighbor hood where you don't need the ants, scavengers like dogs, cats, skunks raccoons, etc. wandering around your backyard eating at your "buffet". Composting when done properly is a wonderful thing. When nature drops things on the ground and nature takes care of them then nature is composting. When your neighbor tosses their kitchen scraps and anything else they can think of (like my Bro-in-law) then it's not composting, it's a garbage heap.
Happy gardening!


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

chrose,

As the rest of your post suggests, "properly" is in the context of "what will my neighbors think". Some people have enough land that none of their neighbors will see or care what they put in their compost. Many farms can compost dead animals in their piles without anyone knowing and if the compost pile is maintained properly with enough browns and greens to heat up properly, any pathogens or bad bacteria are killed off. And when maintained properly with enough browns, it is certainly possible to prevent it from smelling if meats are composted.

I have a compost pile in my backyard along the chain link fence that divides our property from our neighbors. When I toss eggshells on top which stick out like a sore thumb I throw a handfull of leaves on top. The compost pile could care less, it's simply more pleasing to the eye.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

No, no, no Mud. You're really not getting this are you. We are talking about a neighborhood setting here. House with 1/3-1/2 acre or so. That's what I am referring too. I am not suggesting "what my neighbor thinks" in regards to how it "looks". Trash in a heap invites vermin, potentially dangerous animals, and I don't nor does anyone need them hanging around.
You yourself said that when you toss eggshells on the compost pile you cover them up with leaves. This will help keep the odor down, and attraction to the roaming animals and insects. What you are doing is what I consider proper, in terms of consideration for your neighbors and in terms of the most efficient breakdown of the waste.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

No, I get it. It's not just the neighbors you're worried about. It's squirrels, cats, dogs, fruit flies, flies, raccoons, ground squirrels, birds, opossums, rabbits, etc.

I truly think it depends on the person and their perception of what is "proper" or acceptable.

I personally don't care if they do get in the compost pile. It doesn't bother me at all. But that's just me. Nature has a way of taking care of it's living animals. I don't feed them intentionally but if they find something I have discarded to be useful as sustenance, I'm ok with it. 

Our neighborhood has opossums that scout the territory diligently. I know because when I go out at random times throughout the evening to the garden to harvest fresh herbs or vegetables for dinner and turn on the light, I see them at least once a week. I've lived in the same place for five years and never seen one in my compost pile. Perhaps I should be insulted. 

Insects are an essential part of the system of breaking down the materials that comprise the compost pile. I'm ok with them too. Some people have a problem with ants, that's simply a sign they need to water their compost pile. Some people have a problem with slugs which is a sign they need to turn their pile and let it dry out a bit. I haven't had a problem with either but I usually maintain an even distribution of browns , greens (carbons, nitrogens) and water and oxygen.

I understand where you're coming from but the animals just don't bother me. Again, it's all relative to each human's perception. 

I haven't yet described anything that would indicate that I am doing anything that promotes "the most efficient breakdown of the waste". Throwing eggshells on top whole and throwing whole leaves brown (pin oak at that!) on top is far from efficient. If I was efficient I'd crush the eggshells in my hand, sprinkle them evenly on top, then sprinkle fresh grass clippings, sprinkle an even layer of shredded leaves, fluff the top layer and then water the top. But I don't have time to do that every time I add something to the compost pile.

If you really want to discuss efficiency, here is how I started my compost pile and I have reconstructed my pile the same way twice already this year. (I like doing it if it's not hot outside.) Here's what I did when I learned about composting and really focused on on it the first time years ago.

I did my research, it was Spring.

I had 11 large garbage bags full of pin oak leaves from the fall before. They're huge but they had broken down a bit thru winter.) Anything not broken down was run thru a leaf mulcher.

I had fresh grass clippings from a neighbor. (Now I get them from asking random people mowing their lawns and from the yard waste recycling center as people are getting the bags out of their car to haul them to the dumpster.)

I had some leaf mold from under a huge pile of leaves.

I had gumballs from the gumball tree from a neighbor from the previous fall.

I had maybe five gallons of compost from another source.

I lightly layered everything by literally loosening everything and sprinkling it in my 5x5 wire bin. Sprinkled grass evenly along the bottom, sprinkled leaves evenly on top, repeated a few times, sprinkled compost to distribute beneficial organisms, repeated grass, repeated leaves, sprinkled leaf mold, repeated grass, repeated leaves, sprinkled gumballs throughout the center and kitchen scraps as well, repeated grass, repeated leaves, etc until I was out of material. My pile reached a good four and a half feet high. Was light and fluffy because nothing was compacted so plenty of oxygen available throughout. Watered over the top with a hose. It only took a couple of hours to do everything.

Within a couple of days I could see the top of the pile was visibly getting lower based off the horizontal wires of the fencing I was using. So I went outside to stick my hand in the center. It was much warmer than I ever imagined since this was my first experience - it was in fact - hot to the touch.

A couple of more days and it continued to lower. I stuck a digital themometer probe from the kitchen into the center of the compost pile and it read 165F. Success! Although had I known about beneficial organisms being killed off 155F - 160F and higher, I would have moved the center portions out and turned the edges in a bit. Anyway, I have usable compost well within four weeks!

The key is balance and even distribution of all materials whenever possible greens, browns, water, oxygen, etc.

And if you really want to "jump start", you can find other nitrogen sources like urea, alfalfa pellets, fresh manure, etc. But if you have enough fresh grass clippings and you mix it in thoroughly it should to fine.


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Our yard is small, so I have some concerns about pests and odor. I hear there are a lot of possums around the neighborhood and I'm sure there are rats, too. The yard is 25' x 50'. 

We ended up taking a plastic trash can, and poking lots of holes in the sides and bottom and we're using that as a compost bin. I'll use this for food waste (in conjunction with leaves & clippings). If it smells really bad, I'll roll it out to the far end of the property and leave it there. So yesterday, I went into the raised planter, and pulled out the produce, did a rough chop, and threw it in the plastic bin with leaves and weeds that I dried overnight on the deck. 

We're also planning to have a small walled off (maybe 5'x5') section in the far corner of our lot for leaves & clippings only, since there's entirely too much to compost for our 1 container.

As far as vegetable planting goes.. There is one raised planter already there, it's maybe 10' x 4'. It's got 1 rhubarb plant already, 1 potato plant (that decided to sprount, and not compost) and lots of strawberries. My husband wants to leave the potato plant, but we'll move most of the strawberries. I kind of want to move the rhubarb, because it's SO WIDE.. but I was advised against doing that.

Hopefully my seedlings will survive one more week in containers.. can't wait to get it in the ground.

P

(I'm enjoying this thread immensely.. thanks again for alll of the input.)


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Porkchops,

Glad you're enjoying the thread. What type of soil is in the raised planter?

If you want to move the rhubarb do it this fall and choose a permanent location. Make sure you take note of how wide the leaves are out this season. Because the roots usually come out 2-3 inches wider than those leaves. Put in some sticks or bamboo or plant tags to mark where the edges of the leaves come out. This will give you an idea of where you need to dig in order to preserve as much of the rootball as possible without damage. Don't move it while it is producing shoots. Wait until it goes dormant. 

Amend the new planting area by digging about a foot deep and wider than your widest leaves of the plant. Dig when the soil is somewhat damp but not wet and heavy or completely dry (true for when you take out the rhubarb as well). Take out all the soil, add enough compost to fill half the hole. Use compost created from at least five different materials such as leaves, mushrooms, manure, kitchen scraps, worm castings, etc to provide a balanced diet for the rhubarb. Mix that compost in with the soil well. 

Move your plant into that hole and fill in with your lucious amended soil. Water well twice a week for about three weeks unless it rains. Your rhubarb will reward you in the following years. Remember to sidedress with compost every spring. Rhubarb is well known for being a heavy feeder of nutrients and water.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

And if you do it really well you can end up with this


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

How fun would that be! Yum....


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

wow.......


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## richc (Apr 21, 2006)

I know im very late in replying but this made me smile

A doddle is just like already stated (something very easy)I just smile as its a word ive used all my life. its easy to forget how rich and diverse our language is:smiles: 
(UK scotland)


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## qahtan (Dec 7, 2003)

Although the weather has been strange to say the least, our garden though not large has done very well so far.
We have had well over 200 lb of gorgeous apricots, trees grown from self seeded pits years ago, also 8 1/2 lb black currants, 24 lb broad beans (fava)
lots of Ozark plums that the birds would not leave alone;-(((. and about 8 lb of French beans. and one good picking of blackberry's more to come....Plus a good harvest of French shallots

Waiting now for Scarlet Runner beans, they haven't liked this heat we have had, leeks, red and regular Bartlett pears, and Elderberries and Mac apples.
qahtan, Niagara Peninsula, Ontario, Canada


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Just an update,

Doddles are tasty.. or at least the New Zealand Spinach is.. It ended up in a shady part of the existing space set up for a vegetable garden, so has continued to thrive even though we've had our share of hot weather in Jersey City. Hopefully now that it's cooling off, it'll continue to kick booty.

We've discovered that that this funny tree in the corner of our new yard is a fig tree. So we're hoping that we can actually harvest those, too. And that they won't all go to the neighborhood squirrels.

-P


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## jfb1060 (Aug 3, 2006)

Where did you get the seed for New Zealand Spinach???

Can you grow that down here in Florida?

Joe


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## tropicalgal (Sep 13, 2006)

I have a small garden that is almost ornamental in the back of the yard... and grow a few fresh vegetables to enjoy in the late summer/early fall. I grew tomatoes, peppers, leek, red onions, jalapeno peppers, celery, cucumbers & zucchini this year. In past years I've also had eggplant (no success), leaf lettuce (can't eat it fast enough), and other disasters.
I have Chives growing as a perrenial in my flower beds... but no other herbs. Anyone else out there? Maybe we could share some tips... and some recipes!!!


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## porkchops (Mar 23, 2005)

Can't say for sure about whether or not it'll grow in Fla.. but it really thrived all summer long, so maybe it's hearty enough for a hot place.

At someone's suggestion last year (maybe Mudbug's?), I ordered all of my seeds from rareseeds.com. I'm still a novice, but it seemed like they had a lot to choose from.

-P


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