# Chef, Santoku, Utility, And Pairing Knives for Untrained Home Cook Under $400.00 For Everything



## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

4 years ago I purchased the Victorinox Forschner knife with black plastic handles set the fits the discussion above. My family and I consider those knives scary sharp which might only be due to the fact before purchasing these we only had cheapo sets that were after having these I would consider dull from the factory. These in reality could be be used by us for a lot longer, but I want something nicer, but not just the same with a nicer handle.

I would like to spend the money for better steel and build quality over all, but not necessarily the best. I'm not married to any brands the only thing I know I don't want is full bolsters as I prefer being able to sharpen the entire length. I'll probably continue to use the Forcshners for cutting up chicken and ribs and cooking outdoors. I cook a lot of fish, meat, and vegetables, and occasionally complex carbs. I hand wash and dry all my knives immediately after use and hone them on a steel and plan on purchasing either a Wicked Edge or Edge Pro sharpening system.

I'm not sure if I want Japanese, German, French, American... I've thought about Japanese brands, but after reading that they are damaged more easily than others I've had second thoughts.

Any suggested Brands/Models and advice on my quest for the best bang for my buck will be appreciated. I understand that many think a person must handle a bunch of knives to see what best fits them for ballance, etc. I can see the benefit of that if I were using them in a commercial kitchen all day, but I rarely spend more than an hour in the kitchen at time, but I like quality tools as I figure buy once and last a lifetime is better than buy cheap over and over.

I might be willing to consider spending up to $500 if the knives are significantly better than what I can get for <$400.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Firstly If you do searches for "first good  knife", Japanese vs German, etc, you will find lots of information about specific knives and their particulars attributes.

Forschener is a good inexpensive knife and the most recommended here as such, a good knife to tide you along till you have a better idea of what you are looking for in a knife.

+1 for you observation that the ideal handle and feel are not so important for the typical home cook.

You say you do a lot of fish, but do you also fillet that fish too?  If so you might want to consider the knife choices here, Deba, flexible of rigid fillet'r, happy to just use any slicer or chef knife, etc.

You're concerned about toughness, but you have to understand that you are not going to want to subject any knife you pay good money for to anything but reasonably careful use and storage.  Needles if toughness is really important then you have ruled out alloys like aogami (blue) super, white (shirogami) or blue #1, and most knives hardened to more than about 61 rc.

Do those searches and tell us what seems to fit your current thinking and we can then be a lot more helpful.

Rick


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Rick Alan: 

Thanks for the reply! Yes I do a lot of fish as I'm an avid fly fisherman and keep fish when I fish in salt water. I use a fillet knife that I had for years which my father used to keep in his tackle box. It doesn't old edge for long, because it is made of fairly soft steel, but it is sharp and I can flawlessly fillet anything with with it very fast. Matter of fact friend of mine who used to fish commercially and owned a restaurant years ago used to hire me to come in just to fillet for him. I don't have any training, just a lot of years of experience. Nevertheless, I might just relegate that old box to my travel kit to use when I'm camping and buy a better knife for use in my kitchen.

Perhaps toughness isn't all that important since I do baby my knives so to speak and always use them very carefully, except for an old Chinese cleaver that I use on a rare occasion.   

After doing a search I can say I've never used a true French style knife so I really don't know how I'd like it. Interestingly though I've been using the pinch method with my knives and didn't even know what it was called. I decided to watch some knife skills videos and it seems I've instinctively used many of the techniques I saw even though I've never been trained. Although I have watched a good number of cooking videos and have purposely paid attention to how chefs held and used their knives so that likely has a lot to do with it. I've found with learning a lot of skills its often better to pay attention to the instructors hands and arms then the words that come out of their mouth. 

So after watching the videos I think my knife selection is good with the possible addition of a filet knife with a bit of flex. I like the profile of the Forschner chefs it doesn't have a huge belly matter of fact it seems to me that's its kind of a compromise between a French and German Profile.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Western or Japanese handles? Have you ever grabbed a Japanese handle?

From _An edge in the kitchen_, by Chad Ward





  








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ordo


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Jul 6, 2014


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

If you're getting a Chef's and a Utility, then you can skip the Santoku--it serves no purpose not already filled by the other two.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

phatch said:


> If you're getting a Chef's and a Utility, then you can skip the Santoku--it serves no purpose not already filled by the other two.


It seems I have something to learn as I often use my current chefs knife for cutting up whole chickens, but my Santoku only for vegetables. Is this not correct?


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

You can cut chickens with your chef knife; you can also cut veggies. I can't stand santokus, personally; but they really shouldn't be used for chickens, etc.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You can use a santoku for whatever you want actually, but I do prefer to have I knife reserved for slicing [soft] vegetable, soft bread, boneless meat. For me that is a 240 slicer/suji (my idea of a laser). I too have no use for a santoku, which in Japan is thought of as an all around knife for ordinary housewives.

Whatever else is handled by a mid-weight 240 gyoto (would prefer a 270 or 300) and 180 petty. I have large hands so my preference runs toward larger knives. I have an array of inexpensive small knives I used for paring, cheese, general utility, etc.

Slicer and chef knife is where I think you'd most benefit in spending the money, I think you would enjoy a nice fillet knife also.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I have a little free time here at work so I'm going to attempt addressing things here as our absent resident knife expert would.  Everyone has a style that best suites them and BDL was a master at drawing this out.


Some folks use a chef knife for just about everything except the more intricate tasks, and those who are differentiating will have several of various sizes and weights to suite every occasion, from a "laser" to a "mighty gyotu."  For others one size fits all.

For myself I already revealed that a 240 slicer/suji is my go-to knife.  It slices my salad onions to 1.5-1mm or a little less (celery is also nice done this thin); slices, wedges, dices tomatoes; whatever needs to be done to fresh herbs; carves chicken breast and roast; etc.  I sharpen it to about 12deg initially, subsequent touch-ups against the rounded edge of an Arkansas stone will increase that angle and at some point I will decide it's times to bring it to the stones.  In use it never does more than barely touch the board, I'm in no rush so I can be careful and maintain the edge of what is not really good or hard steel.  Eventually I like yourself will trade it for a better item.  Right now I still get a kick out of sharpening and maintaining it.

My mid weight chef/gyotu slices the ends off onions and is relegated to dicing them also being ground very thin at the tip-end for this purpose, some chef knives are better here than others.  It does potatoes and carrots, beets, swede, smashes garlic cloves, etc.  Like the slicer it never contacts bone, but is not sharpened as acutely.  Like with the slicer I use a gliding motion to prevent sudden break through and also don't hurry with it so it also never contacts the board with significant force, so the relatively soft steel holds an edge for a while.  It too will eventually be replaced with better steel, but since I spent some time in refining this knife I still enjoy using it.

The thing to understand about a good knife is that when properly sharpened it glides through food with such ease that once you get use to it you won't hit the board with much force regardless of how fast you go.

You've reserved your Santoku for slicing vegies, you may very well find a fine replacement for it desirable.  There are more than a few chefs like them were multi-tasking is called for.  You can consider a higher grade one, or a Nikiri from which the Santoku derives much of its shape and size, but I understand the Usuba is the ultimate precision vegie slicer.

Except the fillet your current set of knives I'm guessing will be relegated to all uses not mentioned here, or maybe not.  Also you indicated that you may not be limited in your steel choices, but haven't said how you feel about stainless vs carbon, or semi-stainless or a stainless clad carbon which reduces maintenance some.

So does this help you at all in narrowing down the types and qualities you're looking for in some new knives?  This is not typically such a simple process, but things often sort themselves out sooner rather than later.  Sharpening is next.



Rick


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Tom Wilson said:


> phatch said:
> 
> 
> > If you're getting a Chef's and a Utility, then you can skip the Santoku--it serves no purpose not already filled by the other two.
> ...


It's not about correct or incorrect really. Santoku have blades usually in the 6-8 inch range, much like the utility knives do. Or to call it a petty can reduce the size to the 5-7 inch range in many people's definitions. So it struck me (and my biases and preferences) as wanting two knives that have basically the same function. And so you could bump up your budget on the remaining blades and get better tools.

To me, it's about blade length and minimal belly-- a French or Japanese profile essentially rather than German. The Santoku doesn't really offer functionality the Chef's and Utility don't already offer. As mentioned, a Chef's will do the vegetable work. Indeed, the extra length of a 9 or 10 inch Chef's knife offers a lot more efficiency in that you can work larger groups of vegetables and still keep the tip on the board for efficient cutting. A Santoku will struggle on many squash, long cuts in cucumbers, or melons and such.

If you prefer the shorter blade for your vegie work, that's not wrong. It's just that the utility will do that just as well and with a more useful point for those times the point is useful. But again, there are efficiency gains to be had with the larger blade generally.

If you love the Santoku, you love the Santoku and should enjoy it. I gave the Santoku thing a try for a while with a Dexter Russell in 7 inches I think it was. It's not a bad blade, but in the end, I mostly liked it for cutting cheese where the tall blade helped keep the slices a bit more even. It's been in storage now for a few years waiting for one of my kids to claim it for their first college kitchen. I don't miss it.

For many home cooks, the chef, bread and paring are the key blades. In the next tier, a slicer and boning knife come into it. Beyond that, there are knives for specialty work or cuisine. I'm a fan of the 8" Chinese Chef's knife (cleaver, but not for hacking-- thin, fine and sharp, a great blade). For most home cooks, the Chef's knife will serve as the slicer until their budget fits a carving knife/slicer. Rick Alan's elevation of the slicer is a little anomalous in my experience for home cooks. Not wrong, certainly, as it serves his needs.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Phatch is certainly correct that my elevation of the slicer is rather anomalous, it shows though how varied individual preference can be, and the possibilities to consider.

Despite my physical stature I love the light and nimbleness of a slicer, a chefs' of the same balance would weight double. But when I reach for a chef its for a [relatively] big job, and I want something BIG, bigger than what many home cooks feel comfortable with. That's just me.

A bread knife should probably be a must have for most. You really can't deal with real crusty bread without one, and it makes a number of items aside from that much easier to deal with, sandwiches for one. But I don't eat crusty bread and my hands are big enough to stabilize just most any shifty item for the cut.

I am actually coming to a very specific point here. As phatch said, "If you love the Santoku, you love the Santoku and should enjoy it." The only sane reason to spend money on knives is to increase your cooking enjoyment. That's what it is about.

And if these items you purchase don't really satisfy your personal preferences, then you don't _enjoy it _as much, you don't get your money's worth, no matter how much you spend.
After not actually having bought a knife in 55 years of existence, just using whatever fell in my lap, and they were none too slick though I did know how to sharpen them at least, one day I just decided to buy something. Knowing nothing and considering very little I spent close to what Tom is talking about, and very soon after wished I hadn't been so impulsive. If only I had somehow delayed that impulse for a couple months I would have known of cheftalk, and known better. I enjoy what I have in comparison to what I had, but I could have enjoyed it a lot more. I am glad I didn't spend $100 on a MAC bread knife though, I actually have a use for what I did purchase.

Some newcomers might think some of us are a little overboard here, but really most assuredly all of this here, as far as new knives and your cooking experience goes, is going to make you enjoy it all the more.

I forget just how BDL put it, but something to the effect that, "No piece of equipment so defines a chef as his knives."

Rick


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

I can't thank you all enough!

I have decided I really do want Japanese knives and at 51 years old I'm hoping to buy my last knives and the truth is I could spend more, but really don't want to spend more than $500 on the extreme end. I'm nearly positive I want Vg 10 steel. Used only a 8" chef, "flank/sholder knive which I've been using mostly as a slicer, a pairing knife I seldom use, and for about 3 months a free 7" Santoku - which I prefer for vegetables mostly due to it being shorter than the chef/gyuto. I could forget the Santoku as I used the Chef for vegetables for years before I had the Santoku. I'm a man with smallish hands and I recently had carpal tunnel surgery and surgery to relocate nerves in the arm on the same on the same side . I live a couple blocks from the Sonoma Williams in Sacramento perhaps this weekend I'll go in and hold some of the Japanese blades they have. 

I also am a person that typically enjoys to go against the crowd so brands that are less well known would be great too and I believe with most things there are equipment brand that are less expensive, but as high or better quality than than the more well known brands. I also would like to not have to sharpen them more often then quarterly. However, I have read that that its best to use something other than a steel on Japanese knives so also need to know what I need in place of a steel to maintain the blades between sharpening. For sharpening my intention has been to either obtain a Edge Pro Apex or Wicked Edge system.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Just curious how you came to decide on VG10.  Was it marketing?  Reviews?

IMHO, VG10 is just an average stainless steel.  There are worse and there are better (same price range too).  Maybe 10 years ago it was all that was available to the US market, but there are many options now.  If you are totally set on it, Hattori is the best at working the VG10 steel.

You should get whatever knives make you happy.  I just don't want you getting ripped off.  I have shopped at Sur La Table, Williams Sonoma, and even a Henckels outlet store (miyabi) to check out the knives and hold the handles.  I would use it as information gathering but don't let them pressure you into buying.  You can find cheaper and better online.  Save the money for sharpening gear.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

p.s. my opinion on VG10 is only based on sharpening and test cutting a few of my friends' knives.  I do not own any to comment on edge retention.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

We'll come up with a number of options VG10 and otherwise. VG10 has great edge retention so long as you do not sharpen too acutely, 16deg per side is fine though.

Hattori does very well with VG10, they are western (Ho) handles

Tojiro DP (they are vg10) is a very good value for the money but their Japanese (Wa) handles can use some shaving down. They are slightly less than half the price of Hattori, 90 and $100 for 210 and 240 chef respectively.

These are typically 2 that get mentioned for VG10.

I have heard nothing but great about HAP40, a new super alloy, one company: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rihakn.html

Extremely fine grain and highly wear resistant as well as tough. And easy to sharpen! The alloy sounds almost too good to be true. If they made a laser version I'd buy it today. Western handle, same price as the Hattori. Google hap40 knives and you can find a few more manufacturers.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Tom Wilson said:


> ...
> 
> I also am a person that typically enjoys to go against the crowd ...


You can easily accomplish this by checking out the Shun knives when you go to Williams Sonoma. Try out both the classic and the Premier lines. Classic has a more Japanese-style handle and Premier is a more American/European handle. The Premier may be more of what you are looking for. Both VG-10 I believe and both incredibly sharp with good edge retention. Plus, as a bonus... you'll be going completely against the grain of most folks here while happily prepping food with a knife that meets all of your desires.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The 2 biggest objections posed here about Shun, Completely Aside from the Bad Price/Performance Ratio, is that their heat treat is unreliable and they are too thick behind the edge.  Also, they may look pretty out of the box, but that quickly fades with any use, especially those decals.  Also too much belly for a lot of peoples tastes.  Tojiro may have homely fit and finish but they do work as they should.  I have a Shun, and I would never buy another.

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Oops, someone struck a nerve.  ;-)~  Ahahaha, well Tom, now you see why it pays to take some care with your knife purchases.

Rick


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

I cannot express how much I appreciate you all. So if VG10 isn't the best in my price range what others should I look for. I already have the HAP40 recommendation which I'm looking into as that stuff sounds like its pretty good as I've read more even on another forum about it.

I've only been able to find HAP40 knives  on chefsknivestogo.com and fine-tools.com do you all know of others.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm not sure that I would draw that conclusion, Tom.  I think you may be over-thinking the problem and listening too much to opinions of folks who over-think even more than that.  That is why I steer clear of most of these knife discussions, and I'm willing to bet this is why BDL, God bless his well-meaning heart, has vacated the premises.

Perhaps your best use of time would be to spend an hour at your local Williams Sonoma.  I know they generally have some veg available, but in case they don't bring a carrot, potato, and onion.  Give a couple of knives a try.  Then judge for yourself based on performance... and forget the nerdy stuff like metal type.  It is more about fit in hand and compatability with your knife skills/style.

When reading your OP my first reaction is that you would likely be very happy after spending $200 (or so) on an 8" Shun Premier and a box of band-aids.  But every time I say such things it seems to raise folks blood pressure.

As an alternative, I gladly invite you to my home and you can try out my collection of chef knives - Japanese, German or American.  Where one would do I have amassed chef knifes in triplicate and variying lengths too.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Steel snobbery is something to watch out for imho. The differences at this level are mostly incremental and small, not revolutionary or huge. The greater differences come out of heat treatment, profile and geometry. And even then, in the Japanese laser market, they're more similar than they are different. 

Once you get above about 62 in hardness, sharpening is a whole new ballgame as well. And while the jig systems you mention are capable of sharpening these steels, it's a comparatively slow method. Unless knives and sharpening are a hobby or somehow a serious focus for you, my suspicions run towards you being happier with something easier to maintain. And VG10 is a very good candidate in that range.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Geometry is big for me and so is quality control from a vendor. If I were looking for my first serious stainless knife right now, I'd get this one:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...u/gesshin-uraku-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html

There's no perfect knife for everyone, and maybe no perfect knife for any one person.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Sorry if I steered the discussion into steels!


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

BrianShaw said:


> I'm not sure that I would draw that conclusion, Tom. I think you may be over-thinking the problem and listening too much to opinions of folks who over-think even more than that. That is why I steer clear of most of these knife discussions, and I'm willing to bet this is why BDL, God bless his well-meaning heart, has vacated the premises.
> 
> Perhaps your best use of time would be to spend an hour at your local Williams Sonoma. I know they generally have some veg available, but in case they don't bring a carrot, potato, and onion. Give a couple of knives a try. Then judge for yourself based on performance... and forget the nerdy stuff like metal type. It is more about fit in hand and compatability with your knife skills/style.
> 
> ...


Thanks for bring this back to earth. I wish I were in the L.A. area to take you up on your very gracious invitation.


phatch said:


> Steel snobbery is something to watch out for imho. The differences at this level are mostly incremental and small, not revolutionary or huge. The greater differences come out of heat treatment, profile and geometry. And even then, in the Japanese laser market, they're more similar than they are different.
> 
> Once you get above about 62 in hardness, sharpening is a whole new ballgame as well. And while the jig systems you mention are capable of sharpening these steels, it's a comparatively slow method. Unless knives and sharpening are a hobby or somehow a serious focus for you, my suspicions run towards you being happier with something easier to maintain. And VG10 is a very good candidate in that range.


Thank you!


MillionsKnives said:


> Geometry is big for me and so is quality control from a vendor. If I were looking for my first serious stainless knife right now, I'd get this one:
> 
> http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...u/gesshin-uraku-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html
> 
> There's no perfect knife for everyone, and maybe no perfect knife for any one person.


So would this be easy to maintain, its right in my price range and I like the looks of the one pictured. There's a good sale on some of their other GESSHIN knives is this brand good value for the price and should they hold and take an edge well for a beginner J knife person like myself?


MillionsKnives said:


> Sorry if I steered the discussion into steels!


No need to apologize!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I bought a honesuki in this stainless steel and I find it easy to sharpen. I believe that gyuto is 50/50 so you sharpen it the same on both sides.  At some point you will need to learn to thin behind the edge, but if you don't do it on your first couple sharpenings, you'll be fine.  JKI has videos on youtube for all of that.  The handle is unfinished ho wood which means you need to put on some beeswax/mineral oil occasionally (that's what i do with my ho wood handles) or look into sealing it with like teak or tung oil.  My reading said that those oils take multiple coats and a long time to dry.  Some people may have allergic reactions to them if not totally dry...so I didn't want them anywhere near food.

From what Jon has said on other knife forums, the Gesshin Uraku stainless is similar to the Gonbei AUS-10 steel, not exactly the same.  It's never mentioned exactly what steel it is.  He did say the hardness is around ~60hrc.  Speaking of which, the Gonbei seems to be a similar price.  I like japanese handles so I never really looked into it.

If you have questions call Jon up.  He's very knowledgeable and very helpful!  He's responsive on emails too if you're not ready to talk to a super expert. 

With online stores and retailers that specialize in knives, I find that at the $150 range you should be able to find a great gyuto, and $200 a really excellent one.  There's a fine line between thorough research and overthinking.


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

A specific recommendation:





  








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phatch


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Jul 10, 2014








Forschner 10" bread knife. This is an inexpensive, ordinary blade steel bread knife. I like it because it is THIN (profile and geometry benefits) compared to other good bread knives. Since the serrations are ground in from one side only, bread knives fall into the chisel grind category. This makes them "steer" in the cut unless you have good technique. The steering makes your cuts uneven. Being thin, the Forschner minimizes the steering effect and is easier to learn to control. It's easy to sharpen with many different systems, including the Apex ones. For the uses of a bread knife, the higher grade steels don't offer much benefit. Even with their better edge holding, the serration points protect most of the edge from the dulling effects of the board. Cook's illustrated gives this a Best Buy rating.

Cons: Plain, boring knife. The inexpensive fibrox handle is cheap feeling and looking. You can get this with wood handle for a small upcharge.

Flexible. If you're cutting a broad cake in two for filling for example, the flexibility can make for unevenness if your skill level is low.

Let's look at two others for comparison:

10" MAC bread knife:





  








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phatch


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Jul 10, 2014








From my understanding, this is not chisel ground making it steer neutrally. Our recently deceased moderator Pete McCracken swore by this blade. MAC's use an upgraded steel, but I'm not positive what steel they use? It is a well respected bread knife and not much more than the Forschner with the wood handle.

Some reviews:
[product="0"]Mac Carving Or Bread Knife Sb105 [/product]
New West Knifeworks Super Bread Knife





  








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phatch


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Jul 10, 2014








A little shorter than the other two, much more expensive and with a good steel. I compared this against a Forschner in my review as I own both. 
[product="26673"]New West Knifeworks Super Bread Knife [/product]
Nicko's review is there too. This is better than the Forschner, but I don't think the price difference makes it the better buy for most people.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

MillionsKnives said:


> ... There's a fine line between thorough research and overthinking.


Amen! The older I get, though, the closer together that fine line gets and the more I believe in the experience of a test drive... whether a knife or a car.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@BrianShaw you're lucky to be in LA. Go test drive some knives at JKI for me! I want to make a trip to Korin (NY) and Tosho (Toronto) at some point too. Not everyone has convenient access to this level of knife in person. I've touched all the knives at big national retailers. The shun, miyabi, etc. I wasn't impressed at their price point.

For the rest of us for these knives, we have to rely on reviews and sometimes just pull the trigger on purchases.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Okay now I've spent some time on the JKI website and I really like the looks of the Gonbei Hammered Damascus knives - made with Swedish stainless steel which seems strange to me. Would these be a good choice?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

My favorite knife right now is a very thin swedish stainless knife.  What different makers get out of knives of course can vary.  Mine sharpens easily and keeps the edge well.  Compared to the Gesshin Uraku stainless which was a single monosteel, this one is swedish stainless clad in a softer stainless. 

Personally, I think it is a good knife and I'd give it a try.  You'll find that high end knives have a good resale value.  If it's not for you you can probably get all but $10 or $20 back by selling it.  It'd be worth calling Jon and asking how it sharpens compared to the Gesshin Uraku stainless.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

First I have say I am happy to see a mixed bag or variety of suggestions as I see people piling on the same one or two knife suggestions way too often around the net. Not that I agree with them all (personally I just don't get some of the profiles in the different shun lines and don't think I would enjoy using them) but nice to see the range etc. 

Tom
Try to hang in there a littler longer before pulling the trigger if you can. This type of discussion does move deeper into things add it progresses (just look at the thread in my signature lol) and you may find serious interest in things you thought you might not like originally. 

As an example on my first round I not only found that low cost j knives like Fujiwara fkm or Tojiro DP are also great cutters and far superior to the Henckel pro s they were replacing, but I later found those weird Wa handles on the true Japanese knives that I thought I didn't Like are now are my favorite. Things change etc. 

Another is considering investing more of your dollars towards a higher end gyuto (it normally gets the most use) and even possibly getting one or two to get a feel before buying the rest etc add this will tell you a lot about what your getting into. 

Far as steel is concerned a lot of people do split hairs etc but simmer of the difference is the steel itself and even more is just what the maker does with it. An example is how nice the steel can be in the Tojiro DP knives (vg10) at such a great price point and in contrast how well a Fujiwara FKM cuts and feels but is a low tech molybdenum that just feels right and is also valid priced. 

Maybe I'm different but I like all the very different knives I own, and the fact that they are so different just kinds of gives them their own personalities, and being there are hundreds of dollars difference from the least to most expensive shows the difference can be extreme. 

Look around, read what others have been through etc and ask all the questions you can. This is not a ten dollar item and may as well try to be happy.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

For about $200 the Kohetsu HAP40 chef is just dynamite to my thinking, the other HAP40 option at CKTG is a bit more expensive and only comes in a 210 but it is a Wa handle and likely better quality.  Mark would probably give you a reasonable answer to that.

Jon may not have those, but he has everything else and can also help you with your selection like nobody else would.  AUS-10 is an unexciting but decent steel, I believe the same as is used in the decent value no-nonsense Fujiwara FKM series and a cut above the German stainless you have.  What is referred to as Swedish Stainless is significantly better than that I believe, Jon at JKI will make all such details clear to you.

Brian mentioned something about a box of bandaids.  Myself I found Scotch Magic Tape stays stuck much better, costs less and staunches blood flow just as well.  There is a learning curve in using very sharp knives, but oh is it so worth it.  I just do not recommend cutting things in hand at the start of that curve.

Rick


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

fujiwara is aus8... a bit different.  And better always depends on what you are looking for/need


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

"And better always depends on what you are looking for/need "

Great point!


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

LennyD,

I can't believe I did it/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif, but I read your whole thread. After it and others I've read I'm thinking that I will likely spend a little more than originally planed on the Gyuto. I will also likely buy from Jon at JKI, because I really like the idea of supporting a local California online merchant as I'm one myself. Although Jon is in SoCal and I'm in NorCal. I will also likely purchase a petty at the same time and one of his cheaper bread knives as I don't own any bread knife now and have need of one on occasion. Eventually I may purchase a Deba or cleaver of some type for more rough work. I love to cook matter of fact my son and daughter were just teasing about how excited I get when preparing meals. The truth is I'm very avid Fly Fisherman and Fly Tyer and don't want another hobby so I'm hoping to buy what will be my last knife purchases.

I will likely speak to Jon and pull trigger on at least a nice Gyuto and Petty by the end of next week based on his recommendations.

I will also talk to Jon about Sharpening and the need for stones.

I was really hoping that an Edge Pro or Wicked Edge system would be great for these knives as I was also hoping to not spend quite as much time as it seems you have invested in improving knife sharpening skills. I figured one of those two systems would significantly shorten my learning curve and produce great results. Now I'm beginning to think that may not be the best plan, but I really do not desire to spend an inordinate amount of time learning sharpening skills.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

If you had any interest in carbon I can't recommend a petty much stronger then the Kochi Kurouchi Wa-Petty.

That wouldn't be to go against any prior rec's, that's just the petty I have now and it's just awesome.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

Also, I'm surprised no one has suggested thinking about a nakiri in place of a Santoku. A Nakiri is probably more of a luxury then a need, but it's much different in profile to a chef knife. I love using mine for certain heavy veggie preps.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Benuser said:


> I guess Jon will explain you a deba is certainly not meant for rough work.


Thank you for mentioning that perhaps I'll just pick up a cheap Chinese cleaver in China town.


Dave Kinogie said:


> If you had any interest in carbon I can't recommend a petty much stronger then the Kochi Kurouchi Wa-Petty.
> 
> That wouldn't be to go against any prior rec's, that's just the petty I have now and it's just awesome.


Maybe something similar to CarboNext, but I don't like the look of the them much. I'm really hoping to find a really nice D


Dave Kinogie said:


> Also, I'm surprised no one has suggested thinking about a nakiri in place of a Santoku. A Nakiri is probably more of a luxury then a need, but it's much different in profile to a chef knife. I love using mine for certain heavy veggie preps.





Benuser said:


> A good santoku has a larger edge road than a 210mm gyuto. What you miss is the belly and tip. Look for a 190mm santoku.


I've decided to not get a Santoku and instead get a nicer Gyuto and a petty and possibly a Sugihiki*. *I'm hoping find at least one nice Stainless Damascus blade matter of fact I really like the look of hammered Damascus.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tom Wilson said:


> LennyD,
> 
> I can't believe I did it , but I read your whole thread. After it and others I've read I'm thinking that I will likely spend a little more than originally planed on the Gyuto. I will also likely buy from Jon at JKI, because I really like the idea of supporting a local California online merchant as I'm one myself. Although Jon is in SoCal and I'm in NorCal. I will also likely purchase a petty at the same time and one of his cheaper bread knives as I don't own any bread knife now and have need of one on occasion. Eventually I may purchase a Deba or cleaver of some type for more rough work. I love to cook matter of fact my son and daughter were just teasing about how excited I get when preparing meals. The truth is I'm very avid Fly Fisherman and Fly Tyer and don't want another hobby so I'm hoping to buy what will be my last knife purchases.
> 
> ...


Tom

I know that's a long thread, but the info and value gained from it was so helpful to me I know if will be for anyone new to this all as well.

I totally agree with the idea of investing more in the gyuto, and no matter the actual brand I'm certain you will enjoy it at the price level your looking it. There are also many options or knives to look at in this price range and a few more dollars opens up a whole lot more. The problem with they for me was and maybe even still is that as you increase the quality, price, and therefore your expectations as well it becomes even more difficult to make a comfortable decision. Once you get into the high 200's and above there are a lot of very nice but also very different choices.

SS, carbon, semi stainless, all have good choices, and then you have others like lasers (I personally prefer a thin blade for a gyuto etc) handle choices, handle material and so on.

As much as I am confident you will enjoy most knives your considering there are enough different knives etc you may benefit from having more than one style so as to offer comparison and help you to know which you really prefer.

I know I learned a lot from being able to compare (maybe almost as much as the countless suggestions and helpful information) and have made decisions for next purchase etc (an example is how a combination of a desire to experiment with carbon combined with what I learned from the VG10 in my Tojiro and the molybdenum steel used in the Fujiwara FKM and the difference in the profile led me to ultimately my favorite knife the Konosuke HD 240mm gyuto which I enjoy immensely).

Though still fully expecting to add a yanagiba in blue or white steel in the future I know my previous experience will play a role in the decision Edgehill though it is so very different a knife than any of the others I have owned. I guess it just allows us a basis or starting point of understanding lol.

Still I also believe that if you desire a Santuko you should get one because they can be a good addition, I enjoyed mine for a few years, they cab be good knives especially for small tight working conditions and ultimately you will wonder what you may have thought etc.

And lastly don't let sharpening scare you since it's not that bad, and mostly about repetition and kept a consistent angle. I hear Good things about the jig system you mentioned, and it should get the job done. 
But you loose that personal touch feeling.

Hope that helps


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

My recommendation is to get a 240mm gyuto, 150mm petty, and 1000/6000 waterstone to get started. Sujihiki is more advanced sharpening since it is asymmetric. Sharpen your knives a couple times over some months before you get the suji. It will give you time to learn the basics and get a feel for what you are looking for in a knife. This is that test driving thing. Right now you have no basis for comparison at all.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Btw I thinned my VF behind the edge and it cuts very well. 90% of people would never even touch a knife that sharp in their life. Blade face got scratched up during thinning but that thinned part is all shiny and i think that looks better. I'd take my ugly VF s over my friends unmaintained wusthof or shuns any day off the week. I use it as a backup or for dirty jobs or I let others use it. Edge retention is not as good on a steel that soft, but it's not my main so it has limited use. Haven't needed to sharpen that one for two months. Very good sharpening practice steel. The burr formation is obvious and it takes an edge easily.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Okay I've been looking at CKTG and I just may not go with JKI as I once thought as it seems that CKTG has a larger selection of knives in my price range.

I've been looking closely at the 240mm Goko Gyuto and watched all the videos on it and it seems like good bang for the buck that could cost more. I've thought I'd like all stainless, but this seems like it might be a very good compromise between stainless and carbon. How would it be for a newbie to sharpen with an Edge Pro and would it hold an edge well enough that with regular home use for evening meals I wouldn't have to pull out the Edge Pro every week. I'm not set on this knife, but another thing I happen to like is the Nishiji finish looks and the way it helps food not to stick. I would contact Mark and ask for his recommendations first for sure.

I also like the idea of Hap40, but I want a Wa handle and 240mm and CKTG doesn't show any on their site.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I have a Goko swedish stainless and I love it.  They only had it for a few weeks.  If it's any indication of Goko, their white steel one should be good.

Edge pro or freehand has nothing to do with your edge retention.  That comes to the angle you put on the bevel, whether you have a microbevel, the cutting surface, how hard you chop, how you store your knife.

There are a lot of posts on kitchenknifeforum about the edgepro that are worth a read before you drop your hard earned cash on it.  Personally I learned freehand sharpening in not a lot of time (I knew nothing 4 months ago).  I was able to put on my first decent edge within an hour.  Knowing the limitations of the edge pro, I don't think I would ever get one.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

MillionsKnives said:


> I have a Goko swedish stainless and I love it. They only had it for a few weeks. If it's any indication of Goko, their white steel one should be good.
> 
> Edge pro or freehand has nothing to do with your edge retention. That comes to the angle you put on the bevel, whether you have a microbevel, the cutting surface, how hard you chop, how you store your knife.
> 
> There are a lot of posts on kitchenknifeforum about the edgepro that are worth a read before you drop your hard earned cash on it. Personally I learned freehand sharpening in not a lot of time (I knew nothing 4 months ago). I was able to put on my first decent edge within an hour. Knowing the limitations of the edge pro, I don't think I would ever get one.


Okay I read a couple of those threads over at Kitchenknifeforum and now I'm convinced that I'm just going to have to learn freehand sharpening. The truth is I was hoping to get out of having to spend a lot of time learning a new skill. I know I would have to learn the Edge Pro and that would take some time. I was just hoping it would shorten the learning curve. This 51 year old dog is just going to have to learn a few new tricks I guess.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

It's really not too hard! Promise.  It's just rubbing some metal on a rock.  You can do a lot of things wrong and still have a usable knife.  Watch through the JKI videos on youtube.  They're the best resource I've seen on the topic.

As far as stones, you only need two.  A medium and a fine stone.  At some point, you will want a coarse stone for repairs and thinning, but you don't NEED it for a long time.  I like the shapton splash and go stones 2000 and 5000.  Not too expensive, and work very well (and fast).  The boxes on these double as a base for sharpening.  The numbers on this series are weird, the 2000 cuts more like a 1000 waterstone.  While you're at it, gather some wine corks for de-burring and some piece of leather for stropping.  That's all you need to get started and get better than out of the box sharpness.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

Yeah, free hand sharpening is relatively easy. I'm still not fully there, but I just started sharpening maybe a year or so ago and I picked it up super quick.

BTW, I don't have personal experience with them, but those Goko white steel line get rave reviews from a number of posters on the CKTG forums.

If you're going to go carbon, I'd like to recommend the Masamoto KS as well. It's pricey, but it's a super nice knife that gets scary sharp. I personally love the long flat profile and it's shorter then most Gyuto's, so it can double as your slicer as long as you keep it away from bones.

Konosuke HD2's get great reviews as well, again I personally have no experience with them, although I plan on picking one up next month.They're more or less a prototypical laser, just insanely thin and light. I forget if they've been brought up in this thread yet, but they're a semi-stainless. They can rust, but you'd have to abuse them to do that. On the CKTG site it says in the description they build a nice patina, but every time I read someone's thoughts on them who own one, they say they are very nonreactive.

If you wanted to stay stainless, the Sukenari Ginsan Gyuto's are really great bang for your buck. They sharpen up really easy on the stones and give a lot of feedback similar to carbon. The handle is very bare bones and needs TLC though, it really needs to be sanded down with a high grit paper and oiled a ton. But the blade itself is very nice and the F&F was really quite good for it's price.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm beginning to feel like I've run down a few rabbit holes and may have gotten away from my original intentions to some extent. The fact is my Victorinox Forschners Fibrox knives were once plenty sharp for me and I'm sure if I purchased good stones would be to my liking once again. However, after reading this forum and watching videos of knives cutting tomatoes without anyone even touching the tomato I think I allowed myself to get somewhat carried away. I could afford to spend a whole lot of money on knives, but I would rather invest ridiculous amounts of money on Fly Fishing than anything else. I do want knives with better steel and edge holding then my Forschner's along with nicer handles and I figure since I'm going to buy Japanese I want Wa handles.  

I'm now more open to some of the stainless/carbon knives, but don't want to spend more than $200 on a Gyuto. Something like the Goko mentioned above fits within this criteria as I'm willing to take some extra care, but not the care that a full carbon blade requires. One of the things I think of with the Goko though is that the blade is taller than average and wonder if that would make a bit unwieldy. Also my hands are medium/small so I wonder whether even with a pinch grip how it would work since its described on one of CKTG's videos as having a large handle.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

I'll tell you what, if you want a nice intro into J-knives without spending a ton, the Richmond GT Artifex Wa-Gyuto is an awesome all around knife for the money. It's got the same solid FKM steel from Fujiwara, but it's got a nice Yew handle with Buffalo horn ferrule.

The steel is a touch soft, so it's not an amazing edge holder, but it gets really sharp really easy and at it's price point gives decent feedback on the stones. I had gotten mine for I think $85 the second time Mark stocked them and ran a special on them. I really loved that knife for the price, it's really plain Jane, but still really nice looking. It has good balance in the hand. it's relatively light and solid F&F for the price point. They go for about $100 now.

The nice part about that knife, is even if you get the bug down the road and cop something more expensive, it's a perfectly suitable beater that you don't worry too much about, or you can gift it, or loan it to someone who's interested in seeing what Japanese blades are all about.

Maybe get that knife, a 1000/6000 combo stone like the King, a ceramic honing rod, maybe a parer or a petty, plus a nice carbon Nakiri and you can still come in around $400 to $450 for everything.

Remember too, most of these knives, if you keep them in good shape, keep the boxes, you can sell them on the B/S/T forums on here, on KKF and on CKTG, down the road for a small loss if you decide you either don't like it, or you get the itch and want to upgrade.

That's also a good idea on a way to get value for your money as well, purchase used. KKF and CKTG forums both have pretty active Buy/Sell/Trade boards.

I've personally bought 2 knives off of them, my Masamota KS and my Shigefusa Nakiri with a Mike Henry custom handle. I got great value on both, in fact the Masamoto was in box new, the guy I bought it from just never used it.

Both were pleasant easy transactions. It's worth a look, there are always awesome and diverse options in the classifieds on these 3 sites.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

Oh, meant to add to that, when I said the Masamoto was shorter than most Gyuto's in that other above post, I meant in height and the fact it has little belly with a long flat profile. It's actually very long, it's listed as 240mm, but usually come in more like 253mm.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Gyuto can handle vegatables.  If you're on a budget, spend more on that and don't get a nakiri.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

MillionsKnives said:


> Gyuto can handle vegatables. If you're on a budget, spend more on that and don't get a nakiri.


This is absolutely true, I'm just a Nakiri fanboy haha. They're a lot of fun to use, at least for me.

There are a number of really nice ones on CKTG and JKI in the $80 to $150 range as well. But then again, that's an easy way to lop that amount off his total, or just get a much nicer Gyuto.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

MillionsKnives said:


> Gyuto can handle vegatables. If you're on a budget, spend more on that and don't get a nakiri.


I agree and made this decision a couple days ago.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

That White #1 240 Goko looks like a killer. Very nice measures. The moment you grab that blade and compare it with your former Forcshners, wow... i would like to be there and see your face.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

ordo said:


> That White #1 240 Goko looks like a killer. Very nice measures. The moment you grab that blade and compare it with your former Forcshners, wow... i would like to be there and see your face.


LOL!

I'm going to talk to Mark first, but I really think I'd like that knife! If its that awesome compared to my old knives I might become seriously addicted to J knives. I hope these things are like crack./img/vbsmilies/smilies/mullet.gif


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

Got a victorinox myself 22cm chef knife my j gyutos is so much better yes its like drugs im killing myself to make the edge better sharper etc Thinning etc hehe right now my favorite steel is white number 2 hands down. Love to sharpen it  YOUR GONNA LOVE A J GYUTO ;-)


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tom there's no harm in spending some time educating yourself on the various different knives, styles and benefits, and even putting a little effort into figuring out what is motivating some of the advice you may find here and around the net as this will likely Save you from having buyers remorse or worse. At this point time spent can be a good long term investment. 

Something I had advised previous to someone else looking to get into j knives etc was to create a short list of wants, and then after further narrowing down to a few knives to consider purchasing a petty or other less expensive version to allow to get a feel for the differences and steel etc. 

I know it's not easy spending hundreds of dollars on something you can not hold of try etc so that may help you to ease your way in.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Also it may be helpful to separate sharpening a bit as adding sharpening discussion to this already detailed subject could get overwhelming real fast. 

Not that sharpening is all that difficult, but since your going to have to keep whatever knife you get sharp may as well not add any confusion to the knife decision. 

Also since there has been some talk about the semi stainless knives I will add that the Konosuke HD gyuto I have is the nicest knife I have handled on the board or sharpening stones. CKTG has raised the price considerably since I got one, but there really isn't a single bad thing I can say about it. Easily gets super sharp, excellent edge retention, super light, fantastic feel, and great F & F.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

LennyD said:


> Tom there's no harm in spending some time educating yourself on the various different knives, styles and benefits, and even putting a little effort into figuring out what is motivating some of the advice you may find here and around the net as this will likely Save you from having buyers remorse or worse. At this point time spent can be a good long term investment.
> 
> Something I had advised previous to someone else looking to get into j knives etc was to create a short list of wants, and then after further narrowing down to a few knives to consider purchasing a petty or other less expensive version to allow to get a feel for the differences and steel etc.
> 
> I know it's not easy spending hundreds of dollars on something you can not hold of try etc so that may help you to ease your way in.


One thing I'd like to add to this is... a lot, if not all these suggestions in this thread of specific knives are all very nice knives, at least you can come to that conclusion through reading people's personal experiences with them, so no matter which he chooses... a Goko, or a Masamoto, or a Konosuke, or a Gessin... or a Sukenari, or a Kochi... they all have certain pros and cons, but they're all going to be like Ferrari's or Benz's compared to the Kia's and Honda's he's been driving. There are some somewhat bad expensive knives out there.. or ones that will possibly disappoint in relation to their price point due to fit and finish issues, or weak handles, etc., but... I think the most important part of his decision in ultimately choosing one of these knives is profile and how highly he values aesthetics.


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

If you want a one hell of a cheap but quality steel check ut tojiro shirogami gyuto love mine!!! Its a real pleasure to sharpen and Thinning it to its white 2 steel. Thinned mine very much and performs flawlessy good much better than many more expensive knifes couldnt recomend it more as a first gyuto


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Dave Kinogie said:


> One thing I'd like to add to this is... a lot, if not all these suggestions in this thread of specific knives are all very nice knives, at least you can come to that conclusion through reading people's personal experiences with them, so no matter which he chooses... a Goko, or a Masamoto, or a Konosuke, or a Gessin... or a Sukenari, or a Kochi... they all have certain pros and cons, but they're all going to be like Ferrari's or Benz's compared to the Kia's and Honda's he's been driving. There are some somewhat bad expensive knives out there.. or ones that will possibly disappoint in relation to their price point due to fit and finish issues, or weak handles, etc., but... I think the most important part of his decision in ultimately choosing one of these knives is profile and how highly he values aesthetics.


Of the ones I have used or researched well I would totally agree.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Well I've been a bit busy lately with a business trip to Lyon France, poor me. You cannot even walk into a grocery store here and not walk out with something spectacular to eat. Air coming down from the mountains is great too.

Just to correct a previous comment, a sujihiki is not asymetrical in grind, that would be a yanagiba, or a few other Japanese specialty slicers. A suji is a conventional slicer, same as what I use mostly.

I agree about the edge pro feedback and similar devices. Expensive, more time lost in set-up, the few advantages they have you really don't need, ie, very precise angle control (with some drawbacks there also).

Tom as recent comments suggest I strongly feel that what you are looking for is either the Goko in white steel or the Tojiro Shirogami (white steel) .

White steel, in terms of sharpness, is the next best thing to the super alloys, with what is for you the great advantage of being ridiculously easy to get razor sharp. You'll have no problem getting either of these knives to do the tomato trick. You can steel them very well on a ceramic rod, or just take a few light stropping passes on the 6k waterstone. The 6k will also serve to resharpen, using the 1K maybe 2 or 3 times a year to thin a bit and create a fresh edge.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Rick Alan said:


> Well I've been a bit busy lately with a business trip to Lyon France, poor me. You cannot even walk into a grocery store here and not walk out with something spectacular to eat. Air coming down from the mountains is great too.
> 
> Just to correct a previous comment, a sujihiki is not asymetrical in grind, that would be a yanagiba, or a few other Japanese specialty slicers. A suji is a conventional slicer, same as what I use mostly.
> 
> ...


Rick sounds like a productive business trip 

Though I have no experience with the Goko I have to agree with your comments on white steel etc, but will add that I could make similar comments on the totally non reactive SS Fujiwara FKM gyuto I have and paid about 60% less (in the $70-80 range).

Not that these appear to be comparable knives (not my intent or point etc) but that there are options when it comes to ease of sharpening and and effortless cutting.

The trick for me in making a decision (both initial and upgrades) was finding my comfort zone on a product I was not able to handle or test, and the evaluation of the product through review and opinion of others which can be a projectin itself, and then thorough evaluation of real and perceived use and value.

Sure it was fun but it was stressful at times as well lol.

To help support my thoughts I offer how even though the 240mm Konosuke HD gyuto is by far the most enjoyable knife I have ever owned (use, sharpening and more) I still find I can not part with the FKM. It just seems to be a combination of a great value and performer that makes for a great extra knife to have around, and though it's not too often I really need two I believe it's really more about my still being totally impressed with just how good a knife this was for the money and now even after having invested 4x or more on my choice for an upgrade (curiosity on just how much better a higher end product could be really bit me hard lol) the entry level fkm just proves to be a worthwhile part of my tool collection 

If my planned future addition of a white steel gyuto or yanagiba etc will change my thoughts on keeping it I can not say but the point that happiness can be had at a reasonable cost and though many of the more expensive options will offer many advantages the entry level knives are such an upgrade from the popular (and often more expensive) western knives most already have that the smiles and oohs and aahs of the user when they first cut with them are evidence of there not really being a need to make a really large investment for the majority looking to make an upgrade to J knives.

That said I can not begin to explain just how amazing the higher end or cost J knives are, and if this adds to the value for anyone then this may be the right choice.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

I've been out of it with a bum back for several days so I've not been here, but thank you all for the continued comments. Does anyone here know where I can find a Tohiro Shirogami 240mm Gyuto? I've searched the web, but I've only found a couple in Santoku and I've already decided that I'd rather forgo a Santoku and spend more on a Gyuto.


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

At ebay or chef knives to go. Try it very cheap very good :-D Perfect to learn to sharpen with


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

And mean tojiro?


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

mrbushido said:


> And mean tojiro?


Oops! LOL


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

Quick to get a typo  but the tojiro shirogami gyuto good cheap knife i feel its sturdy easy to learn to sharpen on gets very sharp can thin it a fairly good bit too great first carbon knife for you i think


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)




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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

Mines got kuroichi finish sanded that down its very reactive but i put a mustard patina on it and now its fine just wipe it and dry it


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

So got your mind set? And hows you back?


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

mrbushido said:


> So got your mind set? And hows you back?


My back is almost 100% better now./img/vbsmilies/smilies/bounce.gif I'm really leaning toward the Goko, because its semi-stainless. I think I'll worry to much about 100% carbon. Then again maybe I'll go all hog wild and get a Konosuke HD2 Gyuto Ho 240mm or Konosuke HD2 240 Funayuki/Gyuto. I'm waiting for the money from a refinance that is closing tomorrow.


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

You will be amazed anyway going from victorinox to a proper gyuto :-D


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)




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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

That's pretty much my point, and all will be well accepted by most buyers etc etc.

I almost want to say that in a weird kind of way it's possibly better to start a bit lower on the scale since the entry level knives are very good, and then you get a second "ah ha" moment when you upgrade to one of the better ones down the road. Plus after getting some experience the little differences will really Stand out and make sense.

As far as the Tojiro Shirogami goes it's on my short list of steels I want to try (most likely not a gyuto though) and is just too attractive at the price level not to experiment etc, but from what I am getting from countless opinion it may not be the best choice for someone with the means to purchase some of the other more expensive knives.

I think it's more to do with starting out with such a reactive steel being a large change for someone accustomed to Western SS knives.

Tom the Konosuke HD2 Funayuki is the newer or changed version of what I pick up more often than not, and though the idea of the increased flat area or almost non existent "belly" may also be a big change for many as well and some even a deal killer I can't begin to explain how much it can increase my production since really adapting to how this style knife likes to be used. Lots of slicing, gliding, and chopping, but almost zero rocking and rolling.

The only downside for some is that it's a laser and the lightness will get your attention. That's no problem for me, and I have learned to prefer it, but it's also not for everyone. There are also many other good quality lasers out there (I'm sure Jon would be happy to introduce you lol), some less some more, and all kinds of different pluses and minuses for each as well.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I have the Tojiro Shirogami ITK petty. It is very reactive and the cladding is worse than the core at rusting. I don't think funayuki is good for beginners at all.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Retraction. The konosuke funayuki is a different animal.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

The Konosuke Ginsan 270mm Gyuto is such a dream. Pitty the $390 price.

From CKTG





  








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ordo


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Jul 23, 2014


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Millions I think how you describe the Shirogami is not only popular but part of why I'm intrigued but also not comfortable to suggest it as a first j knife purchase.

Just too many options to chance leaving a noob with a bad taste (pun absolutely intended).

Funny you thought the Konosuke was something different since that was what I first thought also and actually was reluctant at first because ultimately it was a decision based on availability and not my first choice, but ended up being my favorite gyuto.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

ordo said:


> The Konosuke Ginsan 270mm Gyuto is such a dream. Pitty the $390 price.
> 
> 
> From CKTG
> ...


agree on both accounts. Also wonder if I would have made the same decision on this brand today being the cost is considerably higher now (over $100+ increase on the one I have does change things).


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Okay so I'll be removing the Konosuke HD2 Funayuki from my short list. I'd really like to see a few more Cladded White No.1 knives. Then again as I've distanced myself from this pursuit for a couple days I'm beginning to wonder if I just don't want just get something that would be considered a Workhorse Gyuto as it seems any of the Japanese knives would be like Ferrari's compared to the Hondas I've been driving. And I'm very confident that I do not want any knife at this time that falls in the laser category and neither am I interested in anything that is all Carbon.

However, I'm still willing to spend up to $250 on my first Gyuto if it will be good one for general use. By general use I mean used 90% of the time for all prep and only pick up something else like a petty or slicer if I really feel it necessary. I'm also beginning to think that my J knife set will likely consist of a Gyuto, Petty, and some type of general slicer for proteins.

I also want to obtain a good fillet knife of some type, but don't know whether I would want a Japanese knife for that, because I typically only fillet when I'm at a fish cleaning station after a day of Saltwater fishing or fishing locally for striped bass. Finally I'll be getting a bread knife - probably something cheap since I seldom slice bread except for holiday dinners.

I almost forgot, I'll likely buy a cleaver in China town to use as the culinary version of a hatchet./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Bahaha I told you gesshin a long time ago. Filet knife in your case should probably have a plastic handle, check out the fibrox flex boning knife. Chinese cleavers are more dainty than you think. Get a carbon meat cleaver on ebay used and sharpen it up.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Is this solid carbon or is it clad http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka8.html.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Kurouchi is a type of cladding. I heard sketchy things about moritaka on kitchenknifeforum enough that I wouldn't spend full price on one. I think someone asked about it here recently too.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Well I've decided that I'm going to get a 240mm Anryu Hammered Gyuto if CKTG is going to get them in soon. I've contacted Mark to see when he expects them. I've been over at the CKTG forum and from all the recommendations I've received for this specific one I think this is the best choice. What do you all know and think about it? As my son likes to say it looks "Sick" - which apparently is a good thing.





  








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*Update:* I just found out they won't be in for 3-4 weeks and I just do not want to wait that long. I want to complete my purchase next week.

In continue my search a bit longer than I thought I would be originally as you all know I've gone back and forth on a few things. However, I've had to just accept a couple things like that I have a champagne appetite and I like bling. The knife picture above has what I consider good bling and from everyone over at CKTG I gather it is a great performer. Nevertheless, I just don't want to wait for it to maybe come into stock for 3-4 weeks. I've also noticed that I'm particularly attracted to hammered finished knives. So here is where I am right now. I'm prepared to spend up to $300ish on a 240 Gyuto if it is a workhorse and preferably simi-stainless - I'm now becoming more willing to consider Carbon, preferably has a hammered finish - I will consider really nice looking Damascus, and will perform at least as well as the knife pictured above. The only reason I'm becoming more willing to consider Carbon is how hard is seems to be to find what I want in stock now that I have what I want more defined.

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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

For your price range you should easily find a carbon that is clad with stainless.


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## ordo (Mar 19, 2009)

Tom: you're so close to this beauty (click the image for info):

*Suisin Inox Honyaki 240mm. Wa Gyuto*

From Japaneseknifeimports.com






  








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ordo


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Jul 26, 2014


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Do any of you know about this knife 9-1/2" Chef Knife (Wa Gyuto) - Yoshikane http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156588/9-12-Chef-Knife-(Wa-Gyuto)----Yoshikane.aspx. I know I'm getting up there in price from what I originally said I wanted.

Update: Well, I've done some extensive reading here and elsewhere on Carbon knife care and I'm much more comfortable with the idea. So this should open up the possibilities. Now I'm aware that AS is considered great Carbon and is apparently quite a bit less reactive them some. Are there others that are less reactive that are regarded as highly?


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

Tom Wilson said:


> Do any of you know about this knife 9-1/2" Chef Knife (Wa Gyuto) - Yoshikane http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156588/9-12-Chef-Knife-(Wa-Gyuto)----Yoshikane.aspx. I know I'm getting up there in price from what I originally said I wanted.
> 
> Update: Well, I've done some extensive reading here and elsewhere on Carbon knife care and I'm much more comfortable with the idea. So this should open up the possibilities. Now I'm aware that AS is considered great Carbon and is apparently quite a bit less reactive them some. Are there others that are less reactive that are regarded as highly?


Honestly, I think people who are brand new to carbon are overly worried about reactivity when they're home cooks only, unless of course they personally do not like the look of patina. I know I was very nervous about it when I first thought about jumping into the carbon world but now at this point I live and die by carbon, although I still want a SS or clad Gyuto as my "tying one on while cooking" or "brought knife to a friend's house" blade. Also, if I still cooked for a living I'd be weary of carbon depending on my position, the size of the kitchen/prep areas and my fellow employees. Too much risk for someone to pick your knife up and mess it up. But at home that is much less a concern.

Unless you wind up leaving your knife soaking wet for long periods of time, in most cases they won't truly rust and even if they do as long as you scrub it with a coarse sponge and a baking soda slurry or maybe some BKF soon after the initial surface rust presents itself, it's not hard to remove. It is true it's better to give them a light mineral oil coating before putting them away though, but really the upkeep needed is only to wipe them frequently while in use, especially in between different ingredients and wipe them dry if they're going to be sitting there for minutes on end on the board while you're tackling other prep tasks.

The thing that has to be accepted and embraced though, is all of them will patina and some much more aggressively than others... and different steels, both flavors of and within a certain type between different manufactures, will give a different look and color of patina sometimes. One such example is Masakage Shimo's sometimes get a rep for producing very yellow patina's, which many people seem to dislike, but other White #1's from different smiths may not and likely will give more blues, oranges and greys, although a lot if not most of patina color is also what ingredients you're cutting.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Dave Kinogie said:


> Honestly, I think people who are brand new to carbon are overly worried about reactivity when they're home cooks only, unless of course they personally do not like the look of patina. I know I was very nervous about it when I first thought about jumping into the carbon world but now at this point I live and die by carbon, although I still want a SS or clad Gyuto as my "tying one on while cooking" or "brought knife to a friend's house" blade. Also, if I still cooked for a living I'd be weary of carbon depending on my position, the size of the kitchen/prep areas and my fellow employees. Too much risk for someone to pick your knife up and mess it up. But at home that is much less a concern.
> 
> Unless you wind up leaving your knife soaking wet for long periods of time, in most cases they won't truly rust and even if they do as long as you scrub it with a coarse sponge and a baking soda slurry or maybe some BKF soon after the initial surface rust presents itself, it's not hard to remove. It is true it's better to give them a light mineral oil coating before putting them away though, but really the upkeep needed is only to wipe them frequently while in use, especially in between different ingredients and wipe them dry if they're going to be sitting there for minutes on end on the board while you're tackling other prep tasks.
> 
> The thing that has to be accepted and embraced though, is all of them will patina and some much more aggressively than others... and different steels, both flavors of and within a certain type between different manufactures, will give a different look and color of patina sometimes. One such example is Masakage Shimo's sometimes get a rep for producing very yellow patina's, which many people seem to dislike, but other White #1's from different smiths may not and likely will give more blues, oranges and greys, although a lot if not most of patina color is also what ingredients you're cutting.


Yes matter of fact my plan if I get carbon blades, which I think I will, is to force a mustard patina. I ready a couple articles and threads on how to do it and the patterns one can get are cool it seems like its very simple to do.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

DSC_0625.JPG




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dave kinogie


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Jul 27, 2014












  








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IDK that these pics do it justice, my camera consists only of my camera phone, but this is the patina on my KS right now.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

@Tom Wilson I would recommend blue #2 over aogami super for you. A little less chippy and easier to sharpen.

I think your budget is getting out of control! There are a lot of great knives between $150 and $250. I'm no slouch at knife skills or sharpening, and my most expensve knife cost $150. I would never spend over 250 and the best knife for me is only $400. At some point, the performance plateaus and you're paying for looks and collector prestige. Until you refine cutting and sharpening technique you might not see a performance improvement from $150 to 250.

I recommend you re establsh budget at $200 max for your gyuto, $150 for a good end grain cutting board, $100 for stones. Ditch the petty for now, and do all your cutting with a gyuto. I used nothing but a chef's for four years; it's possible. Never a paring unless you are doing frilly garnishes.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

MillionsKnives said:


> @Tom Wilson I would recommend blue #2 over aogami super for you. A little less chippy and easier to sharpen.
> 
> I think your budget is getting out of control! There are a lot of great knives between $150 and $250. I'm no slouch at knife skills or sharpening, and my most expensve knife cost $150. I would never spend over 250 and the best knife for me is only $400. At some point, the performance plateaus and you're paying for looks and collector prestige. Until you refine cutting and sharpening technique you might not see a performance improvement from $150 to 250.
> 
> I recommend you re establsh budget at $200 max for your gyuto, $150 for a good end grain cutting board, $100 for stones. Ditch the petty for now, and do all your cutting with a gyuto. I used nothing but a chef's for four years; it's possible. Never a paring unless you are doing frilly garnishes.


Eh, if he's got the money to burn, I'd say burn motherF'er, let it burn! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

The only thing I'd say is I don't know I'd love learning how to freehand sharpen with a knife that nice($400+ range), although personally I feel average level sharpening skills come super quick, at least for me, it's improving beyond average that will take years and years.

I would highly recommend again to check out the Buy/Sell/Trade Board on www.kitchenknifeforums.com as well as the classifieds section on CKTG and the Trading Forum on here. You can get a beautiful second hand knife for maybe 75% of it's cost new at worst on these boards. There is some really nice stuff up there on KKF's right now, haven't checked CKTG or Cheftalk's in a few days though.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I've bought a knife off kkf for $110 that I value at least $200. Only thing is I had to fix some of the sharpening. I can't say if it was like that from the original owner or the vendor though. The point is if I didn't have sharpening skills it might have been more of an issue.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

MillionsKnives said:


> I've bought a knife off kkf for $110 that I value at least $200. Only thing is I had to fix some of the sharpening. I can't say if it was like that from the original owner or the vendor though. The point is if I didn't have sharpening skills it might have been more of an issue.


Did you know that when you bought the knife though, or you were duped by the seller?

I would agree though, there is inherit risk or even expected maintenance when buying a secondhand knife. Personally, I scored 2 pretty amazing deals, one off KKF, the other off here/CKTG.

One thing to remember to give the other side of the coin though, is a lot of the even high end J-knives, in the $150+ range, even all the way into the $300's often come pretty dull OOTB new, at least in comparison to price point expectations. You even need to open those up with at least a 4K to 6K stone or a good stropping to make it shine, if not a light full progressive sharpening starting at a lower grit.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Nothing bad like that, no warp, no rust.  Maybe I expect too much out of 'Senior Members' on that forum. The heel was overground (i think vendor).  The bevel was uneven, especially on the left side.  That one is user error.  It works fine after one session on the stones, I'm not going to wear away steel unnecessarily. I fixed the bevel, and In another two sharpenings, the heel part will be normal.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Dave Kinogie said:


> Eh, if he's got the money to burn, I'd say burn motherF'er, let it burn! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif
> 
> The only thing I'd say is I don't know I'd love learning how to freehand sharpen with a knife that nice($400+ range), although personally I feel average level sharpening skills come super quick, at least for me, it's improving beyond average that will take years and years.
> 
> I would highly recommend again to check out the Buy/Sell/Trade Board on www.kitchenknifeforums.com as well as the classifieds section on CKTG and the Trading Forum on here. You can get a beautiful second hand knife for maybe 75% of it's cost new at worst on these boards. There is some really nice stuff up there on KKF's right now, haven't checked CKTG or Cheftalk's in a few days though.


Thanks for repeating this recommendation - I've finally listened and found 3 used knives I'm interested in. Including some that have been highly recommended here.


MillionsKnives said:


> I've bought a knife off kkf for $110 that I value at least $200. Only thing is I had to fix some of the sharpening. I can't say if it was like that from the original owner or the vendor though. The point is if I didn't have sharpening skills it might have been more of an issue


None of the ones I've found are this good of a deal, but still a considerable better price than new.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tom, isn't it fun finding your way through all of this lol.

We all seem to find our own way eventually, and from what I have seen those of us who put in the time seem to be happy with the outcome more often. 

The last few knives pictured were all very nice ones, but like mentioned earlier I wouldn't want to scratch any of them up developing my sharpening skills. I'm sure if I was still in the trade it wouldn't be an issue but I still shake my head at some of the sharpening goof ups when I look at them lol. It's no biggie, the scratches are small etc, but those were all sub $100 knives and I'm not sure I would feel the same if say they they were $350+

One bit of advice is that if you end up trying not to scratch any of these there is a really good chance you will be holding the blade at to high an angle (some of these are very acute) and end up with a dull knife. 

Also now that you have had a chance to learn about some of the different knives and the various pluses and minuses etc I think you may find it helpful to take a breath and consider what things are really important to you. 

That would include what you will be cutting, your grip, your new thoughts on sharpening, handles, layers or San mai, finish, vendor (online, local or foreign) steel etc etc etc.

Your going to need to have more to go on than what CKTG has in Stock, consider exactly what your getting for your money, and more to help you get an idea of a short listdo you El be able to finally pull the trigger on one of these very nice knives your considering. 

Also though I understand the idea behind not getting a petty I also disagree because they are inexpensive enough and if you get one in a different steel it will expand your learning etc


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## uriah heep (Nov 6, 2012)

Just picked up one of these at CTG

I found the fit and finish to be excellent. It's a very good looking knife. Good Sharpness OTB. It's a Kouetsu 120 mm Hap 40 petty I have used it quite a bit in the last week and am quite pleased with it. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohape12.html


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Uriah Heep said:


> Just picked up one of these at CTG
> 
> I found the fit and finish to be excellent. It's a very good looking knife. Good Sharpness OTB. It's a Kouetsu 120 mm Hap 40 petty I have used it quite a bit in the last week and am quite pleased with it. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohape12.html


Very nice!


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

This morning I pulled the trigger on a Anryu Hammered Gyuto 240mm over at CKTG. I still have to pick a petty and sharpening gear, and Idahone. I pulled the trigger on this knife, before anything else, because someone else let me know they were going to buy it if I didn't and I didn't want to lose the opportunity.





  








anryu-hammered-gyuto-240mm-blue-1.png




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tom wilson


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Jul 29, 2014








I'm not too thrilled with the blue green handle. By the way is handle replacement very difficult?

That knife was bit more expensive than I originally planned, but I believe from all advice here and over at CKTG this is the optimal choice.

For sharpening gear I was planning on purchasing a Shapton Pro 2k & 5k, a Diamond Flattening Plate, and sink bridge. However, CKTG is out of stock on the 2k stone. Someone suggested 1.5k as an alternative, but I've read they don't do quite as good a job as the 2k. What do you all think?


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## uriah heep (Nov 6, 2012)

You might find a 2K a bit to fine and close to the 5K The Bester 1200 has a good reputation. As far as color a bit of sanding and a nice stain can fix that.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The shapton numbers are misleading. Shapton cuts like lower grit stones. I use the 2k as my medium stone. I have the 1k for minor repair. I think amazon had the 2k for $6 more. Btw the shapton box doubles as a stone holder. It works well enough.

Was the anryu used off the forum or new? Wa handles are easier to replace. Hold it flush to a block of wood then hammer the wood to pop it off.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

MillionsKnives said:


> The shapton numbers are misleading. Shapton cuts like lower grit stones. I use the 2k as my medium stone. I have the 1k for minor repair. I think amazon had the 2k for $6 more. Btw the shapton box doubles as a stone holder. It works well enough.
> 
> Was the anryu used off the forum or new? Wa handles are easier to replace. Hold it flush to a block of wood then hammer the wood to pop it off.


The Anyru was new. If you are wanting one they still had one yesterday.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

Good luck with the new knife man! That handle is kind of gross though lol. Let us know how you like it once you get it and put it through it's paces.


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## uriah heep (Nov 6, 2012)

Depends on the handle material and the finish. If wood and the color is surface or deep and how much material you are willing to shed. I would do a test on the flat back end of the handle with a light application of 220 grit. If its a deep penetration you might consider a darker finish on top of the original. If the finish is thin I would do the removal with 150 grit or so then go to 220  then wet the wood to raise the grain another light sanding followed by oil based stain using rag cloth "I protect my hands with latex gloves" to the depth of color you want then apply a coat of oil base poly in mat or gloss. Of course any change is a risk so be sure your are willing to take one.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

I'd leave the handle as is and get used to the knife first.  You know - just in case.


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

Mike9 said:


> I'd leave the handle as is and get used to the knife first. You know - just in case.


Blue/Green is one of favorite colors so perhaps it will grow on me./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif

Just in case though, I've found a place that sells handles at a very reasonable price, what size handle does a 240mm Gyuto take if I decide to replace it?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I always liked the hammered look, but I hope that handle color grows on you lol

I remember you saying something about going against the grain or popular opinion in a previous post, and this does support that statement that's for sure. 

Hope you enjoy it!


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## tom wilson (Jul 5, 2014)

LennyD said:


> I always liked the hammered look, but I hope that handle color grows on you lol
> 
> I remember you saying something about going against the grain or popular opinion in a previous post, and this does support that statement that's for sure.
> 
> Hope you enjoy it!


I feel very confident about the knife, but have a feeling I'll be changing out that handle for something a little more understated. I'm typically a non-conformist, but that handle is a little much even for me. I said I want this to be my last knife purchase, but I never said anything about handles./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Try it out for a little with a pinch grip befor you upgrade. It should be a good baseline to see if you like octagon handles and you can compare the size of your next handle to this one. I have octagonal, oval, and d shaped on my knives. I think D shaped is most comfortable and octagonal looks cool but is too blocky. I have ho wood, ichii, chestnut, and rosewood. If I was paying for custom, I'd spring a couple bucks for ironwood or koa.


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## mrbushido (Apr 24, 2014)

tell us when you get the knife and congrats


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

MillionsKnives said:


> Try it out for a little with a pinch grip befor you upgrade. It should be a good baseline to see if you like octagon handles and you can compare the size of your next handle to this one. I have octagonal, oval, and d shaped on my knives. I think D shaped is most comfortable and octagonal looks cool but is too blocky. I have ho wood, ichii, chestnut, and rosewood. If I was paying for custom, I'd spring a couple bucks for ironwood or koa.


I have to agree with the idea of upgrading to a higher end or nicer wood, but personally don't have as large an opinion on the handle style when it comes to a gyuto as say with a petty or slicer where you are always holding the handle etc.


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)

So what's the good word?


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## wilsongau (Aug 8, 2014)

Not sure if you already purchased your set. But I was in the same boat as you and ended up buying Mac Pro after doing extensive reading, mostly post by BDL.

Some good reading which led me to get Mac Pro:
[thread="76376"]So Should I Just Buy A Mac Pro Or What [/thread][thread="60860"]Need Help On Picking A Good Chefs Knife [/thread][thread="62187"]Another Help Me Pick The Best Japanese Knife Thread [/thread][thread="66967"]First Good Knife And Stone [/thread][thread="51891"]Starter Knife Set [/thread][thread="60100"]Mac Pro Vs Mac Chef Series [/thread][thread="76376"]So Should I Just Buy A Mac Pro Or What [/thread]


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## dave kinogie (Feb 16, 2013)




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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

There's absolutely no need of any sense of urgency here.  Even if the OP gets back to us in a year, or more, that will be soon enough.

Rick


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