# talking to the new generation



## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

... I`m finding it really hard to give instruction to allot of my younger cooks and floor staff. They just don't like being told what to do.

I don't have a temper , much, but f*** me are they precious ! Any tips from the younger team out there on how to actually get through that massive head ? how have times changed !


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

akat said:


> ... I`m finding it really hard to give instruction to allot of my younger cooks and floor staff. They just don't like being told what to do.
> 
> I don't have a temper , much, but f*** me are they precious ! Any tips from the younger team out there on how to actually get through that massive head ? how have times changed !


yes... fire them.

I know all to well what you are talking about.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@akat

I'm not the younger team. In fact I am of the older generation. I have encountered some of what you are talking about. You have to learn how to communicate with millennials. This generation comes to work with a little chip on their shoulders. After all, they were raised in a pretty crappy economy, actually a recession. They have been schooled in a very technical atmosphere.

Just my experience,

I think that technology itself has not given them the human communication skills to engage with adults and workplace supervision.

They are a very intelligent bunch though. They have come up admiring the young financial achievers, and with their success they try to help the world..

I have made some changes in my style of management. I have found that they really need a sense of purpose to keep them involved. They need to be kept in the loop. Once outside, you may never get them back. I have learned to communicate with technology. I hardly ever pick up a land line phone at all. Everything I communicate is through a wire or air and followed up with verbal conformation. Unlike the older ways, you need to challenge them and give them insight to the company goals and how success of your business might, even in a small way, help change the world. It seems to me that money is not the force that drives them. They need respect and they need to be needed.

That's probably deep, but I have given a situation like yours much thought. It seem to be working./img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

panini said:


> @akat
> 
> I'm not the younger team. In fact I am of the older generation. I have encountered some of what you are talking about. You have to learn how to communicate with millennials. This generation comes to work with a little chip on their shoulders. After all, they were raised in a pretty crappy economy, actually a recession. They have been schooled in a very technical atmosphere.
> 
> ...


Actually, i feel they have had it all to easy in life. They all seem to think they know everything, don't want to take instruction, follow what they are being told.... and not having to really work HARD.

I love the "im cold" ... well, if you are cold you are NOT working hard enough in my kitchen.

I am not their babysitter. I am not there to hold their millennials hands. They are not in my kitchen to change my kitchen to suit themselves. There are winners and losers and not everyone gets a trophy for participating. I have expectations and its up to them to meet them. ...not for me to lower my standards.

yes i know that is hard line.... but there are plenty of people who want that job and will do the job the way i require it.... not the way they want to do it. When they have their own business...then they can call all the shots.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

I completely understand both @panini and @Canele perspectives. I have for years leading up to owning my own shop, believed very much as @Canele does. However, in the last few years I have come to realize as @panini has, that giving the millennials the sense of being needed and purpose is very important to them. I communicate differently now with a more precise detail of what I am needing and looking for and let them figure the best course of action to get there. They are incredibly intelligent compared to our generations time due to mass overload of technology and information these kids have had to download everyday all of their lives. We do not give them enough credit.

That being said, I run a tight ship yet give everyone a "3 times your out" shot. I have and give very clear instructions towards the businesses' needs and allow an open door policy for questions, concerns and discussions. I have had more than a few "princesses and princes" come in for a job and not last a week due to their lack of personal willpower and ethics. This is all taken on an individual basis more than a "lump them all in" millennials problem. I have also had the challenge of hiring people around my generation and found them very stubborn, hard-headed and stuck in their ways not wanting to learn nor do it my way. I guess it really is how you approach it.

@akat Have you ever asked the millennials that you are talking about, how they see doing things or how it can be better?? Have you given instruction and explained why you ask this?? They might come up with some ingenious ways to be more efficient if allowed to think outside the box for a moment. It could also be just one or two individuals with poor or no work ethics as they never had to learn what that is up until now.

I really hope it starts to work out for you /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Canele said:


> Actually, i feel they have had it all to easy in life. They all seem to think they know everything, don't want to take instruction, follow what they are being told.... and not having to really work HARD.
> 
> I love the "im cold" ... well, if you are cold you are NOT working hard enough in my kitchen.
> 
> ...


I will have to reread my post, but I certainly did not mean to give the impression that I was lowering my standards. In fact I was trying

say the exact opposite.

It's all about respect. Generations change influenced by their surroundings.

Yea, I think that is a hard line.but that's just me./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I'm sure my elders felt the same way about my generation. Our surroundings were different, many of us were pretty screwed up coming home from war. I'm just really grateful for the people that took the time to try an understand us and gave us a chance. Trained us, learned to communicate with us, had patience for us, and most of all, respected us. The times do change.


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## mrglacier (Mar 6, 2015)

Canele said:


> Actually, i feel they have had it all to easy in life. They all seem to think they know everything, don't want to take instruction, follow what they are being told.... and not having to really work HARD.
> 
> I love the "im cold" ... well, if you are cold you are NOT working hard enough in my kitchen.
> 
> ...


OMG the "I'm cold..." crap is a death sentence in my kitchen. The air conditioning is in and out and I've gone off on a few people claiming it is too cold. "Move your ass." To the OP, put your bollox on and tell them to shape up or ship out. Time is money, and if they don't have the passion or commitment to understand how a kitchen is supposed to work, they need to go work in a different environment. As the chef you control the temp, the pace, the energy of the kitchen. If you are unwilling to put your foot down, maybe you should rethink the chair. Perhaps it is harsh, but being a millenial myself, I get tired of my generation whining about having to work hard. That's why the majority of Millenials still live at home with degrees for a job they're never going to get.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@mrGlacier

Wow! Now I'm really bummed. I just hope you all are an exception to the rule. Millennials are our future. I may be alone but I enjoy the changes I have made communicating with staff.

I actually have family who are millennials, they work hard and have really nice jobs. I've witnessed millennials working in technology and other fields. I have been fascinated with the production and communication coming from a new style work environment. I'm laughing to myself thinking about what you would think about a nap pod. Or a bar in a office. Or casual dress.

Some of the previous posts remind me when I was coming up in the kitchens. The old European & American Chef bastards, God I despised them! Running around with that old sharp-stick-in-the-eye routine of communicating and discipline. Especially that old notion that these worthless young cooks have to pay their dues! I think that's one of the reasons some this industry is still in the dark ages.

Oh well, I just have to add, for me, I think the current crew where I work, could out produce any of the past. Their mostly millennials and the atmosphere is quite calm.

Now you a holes, GET BACK TO WORK!!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

Oh I have to add. When I worked ships, it used to be cold. All I could think about was how cold I was. I'm sure my production sucked.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

My only real issue with the younger generation is that most of them think it's their constitutional right to be on their cell phones all day.  It drives me nuts!


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Text them that unless they put their phones away while at work, they will be unemployed. :~)


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Cell phone usage is a real issue. I think the issue is important enough to address in the employee manual or guidelines.

Rules about cellphones won't usually work if the are punitive in nature.

We are a small operation and our guidelines might not be applicable in larger operations. We have a designated an area that is secure and clean.

This could be the chefs office or other area.

Everyones cellphone is deposited there when in the kitchen or customer area. 

We all agreed that emergency calls should come in or go out on the company landline. 

We agreed that most breaks would be at the same time daily. So friends and family know when to call in and when to expect calls.

When you leave the area you just grab your phone.

If an employee is going to do anything outside for the company like delivering or picking something up, the Company supplies the phone with unlimited local.

This works pretty good for us.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Meh, Millenial/perennial.... I treat all potential (deleted) the same way, regardless if I'm the only white guy in the kitchen like in S'pore, or some pierced, tatted, body-modified know it all with fingernails that demonstrate that they've never worked in a kitchen, or worked at all for that matter.

I don't lecture, don't complain, don't whine or harp, but instead I ask questions. After all this time I finally figured out that asking a question is a lot more powerful than explaining a process that they've already blocked out of their heads.

Take for instance last month, my two week C.C. work experience girl. I have a good relationship with the local C.C., they send potential students 'round, and I interview them before taking on the task of two weeks of one-on-one babysitting. The student I picked aced her interview and both of us were happy to get started. Then I get a phone call from the school explaining that the student broke her collar bone skateboarding, BUT the school would send another student in her place. Didn't give me a chance to refuse neither, and I knew I didn't interview this student, and knew I was her third or 4th choice. Just (deleted) great....

So she shows up on the first day, 5 minutes late. _Tells_ me she's parked on the street infront of the store, and that's _it's O.K., right?_Paste I go into (Deleted)-hole mode and groan inwardly.

"Geez I dunno, the City guys were here about a week ago and I know they changed the parking signs, why'n'chya stick your head out and see what the time limit is?" Absolute horse-pucky, but if I tell her it's one hr max, she'll either complain or hold me responsible if she gets towed. D.a.m.h.I.k.t....

She pouts and is about to argue, but I've already dissapeared back into the kitchen. She comes back 10 minutes later announcing she's parked in the parking lot down the street.

First task with her is to line out 36, 4" tarts with sweet dough. I take out a hunk of dough and ask her to set up the dough sheeter. I know the C.C. has the exact same sheeter, and know students have to do a minimum of 4 types of doughs with this. She pouts and pulls out a rolling pin. I ignore her and tell her to roll out to 3 mm.

"At school we always rolled out to 2 mm" Statement, challenge.

"|Well, do you know what it is we're actually making? Can you guarantee me that 2 mm won't burn before the filling is done, or that the tarts won't be too fragile to handle for the customer we're making them for?" I'm not asking snottily, or as a rhetorical question, I'm just asking as a question that pertains to the work we're doing at the moment.

No answer, but she sets up the sheeter, and pretty clumisily too.

After that we make choc. mousse. I tell her to jot down the recipie while I recite it orally. She fumbles for a pen.... I ask her how she would proceed with the recipie, she doesn't know. So I ask her, again asking her what she thinks should be done first, the second, and so on. She had the theory O.K., but gawd what a mess she made.

Of course she left a lot chocolate in the mixing bowl and dumped it in the dish pit with her other utensils. I grabbed the bowl with the rubber spatulaa glued to it, dumped out the water, and brought it to the scale. She already had about a dozen arguments prepared, but instead I asked her to get and identical bowl and spatula an put them on the scale. Then I asked her to tare off the weight of the bowl and spatula, and I put the dirty bowl on the scale.

"So how much chocolate is left in the bowl" Question, neutral tones, totally relevant to what we're doing.

"Umm, 120 grams"

"I'm paying 11 bucks a kilo for couverture, so 120 grams would how much?" Of course I didn't include the chocolate smeared on the bench or on the edges of the mixing bowl where she folded in the whipped cream.

"Uhh...dollar twenty two?"

"Dollar thirty two. O.K. have you got the glasses ready to pipe in?"

And so on, and so on, and so on. I'd like to report that after the third day she actually gave a (deleted) but she didn't. I just gave her meial tasks that I didn't need to supervise, and both of us were praying for the two weeks to end.

Just ask questions, that's all.....


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## dueh (Mar 4, 2015)

The shop I work in is pretty young, I feel. The owner, and Pastry Chef, is 35, her assistant, also a Pastry Chef is 26. Then there is me, 28 and busting my butt to get to pastry chef level. That's it. 3 person shop, open 6 days a week, doing a retail counter with cookies, cupcakes, macarons, cake-pops, etc. Plus all of the custom orders, wedding cakes, tiered cakes, sculpted cakes. Knowing all this stuff has to get done, we get after it. 

I am starting to think all of these food shows are skewing the view of those looking to enter the industry. We don't just bake a dozen cupcakes, plop a rosette of buttercream on top and sit around drinking coffee waiting for Ted Allen to chop our competition.


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## turtile (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't think it has anything to do with the age of your employees.  In my experience, there's an equal amount of older workers who can't give up their phone or follow directions.  The industry has low pay and those who go to school think it's going to be a ton of fun and they're going to make a lot of money (none of which happens).  It's really hard work and the pay isn't great...  Younger workers just don't have as much experience as older workers and they'll probably need to find work in a different industry.


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## onlyflowers (May 29, 2015)

Work ethic and having standards has nothing to do with age. You're either hiring terrible cooks or somewhat decent, but lazy cooks who you haven't trained properly. Don't slander an entire generation of people based off a hilariously small sample size.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Only Flowers:

To which post is your response directed at?


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

OnlyFlowers said:


> Work ethic and having standards has nothing to do with age. You're either hiring terrible cooks or somewhat decent, but lazy cooks who you haven't trained properly. Don't slander an entire generation of people based off a hilariously small sample size.


hey there onlyflowers

I am pretty sure we can all see and recognize good work ethic and standards.....  Its the ones without it that can be an issue.

The problem comes when you do try and train. Its not about us not training them properly.... they resist being...trained.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

We are currently looking to hire Cake Decorator/bakery Production/ very little Customer Service.

Had 3 interviews today.

1. young, just finishing Culinary program. Little experience. Pretty eager, good interviewer.

1. young, 4 yrs. Decorating assistant, small shop, little customer service.  No current movement in employment, feels stagnating a little. Pretty shy or introverted. Would need to give notice.

1. 14 yrs. experience, worked good places. Nice portfolio.Says, needs no direction. Can do it all. Good personality.Small scheduling conflict with new young Exec.Pastry Chef. available immediately.

Which resume went into the circular file?


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

panini said:


> We are currently looking to hire Cake Decorator/bakery Production/ very little Customer Service.
> 
> Had 3 interviews today.
> 
> ...


lol

#3


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## turtile (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah, #3 sound like someone that has been fired constantly...


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

turtile said:


> Yeah, #3 sound like someone that has been fired constantly...


Just curious, how did you arrive at that conclusion from


> 14 yrs. experience, worked good places. Nice portfolio.Says, needs no direction. Can do it all. Good personality.Small scheduling conflict with new young Exec.Pastry Chef. available immediately.


Not trying to be facetious, just trying to connect the dots. I agree that being fired (explains the immediate availability) was probably the reason for the exodus from the last job, but beyond that...what am I missing?


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## turtile (Jun 9, 2015)

#3 just sounds like BS.  Yeah, he/she just knows everything with 14 years experience.  I came to my conclusion after seeing a lot people come off that way.  They worked everywhere and there is reason they've worked at so many places...


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

turtile said:


> #3 just sounds like BS. Yeah, he/she just knows everything with 14 years experience. I came to my conclusion after seeing a lot people come off that way. They worked everywhere and there is reason they've worked at so many places...


Hang on there a sec. After I completed my apprenticeship it was one of my main goals to work in as many high end places as I could , and I did this with 1 yr stints which were appreciated and endorsed by many of the Chefs and owners I worked for. You're never going to know it all, or get exposure to everything , at one place. And if the place you are at has a very stable work force, you will never move up.

What gets my "spidey senses" tingling with #3 is the fact s/he can't get along with the "younger supervisor", and that s/he can do "anything" without knowing the full capacity of the business they applied at.

"Available immediately" doesn't necessarily mean s/he was fired, it could also mean they quit or walked off the job, or it could also mean that s/he will quit once they have secured a new job, or have worked out some deal with the current owner to leave within a given time frame.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

foodpump said:


> "Available immediately" doesn't necessarily mean s/he was fired, it could also mean they quit or walked off the job, or it could also mean that s/he will quit once they have secured a new job,


I concur with this but while not a deal breaker, walking off a job or quitting before having a new job would get my "spidey senses" tingling; although I have been guilty of giving two weeks notice before having a new job :~). I may not be smart but I know smart.


foodpump said:


> Hang on there a sec. After I completed my apprenticeship it was one of my main goals to work in as many high end places as I could , and I did this with 1 yr stints which were appreciated and endorsed by many of the Chefs and owners I worked for. You're never going to know it all, or get exposure to everything , at one place. And if the place you are at has a very stable work force, you will never move up.


Yeah this, also I would certainly expect a few changes of places of employment in 14 years. I would be more concerned if there were none.


foodpump said:


> What gets my "spidey senses" tingling with #3 is the fact s/he can't get along with the "younger supervisor", and that s/he can do "anything" without knowing the full capacity of the business they applied at.


The not getting along with a new supervisor thing happens, I would delve into it further to see if there is a history of it and to get a little better idea of personality and mentality (the "young" part is a potential red flag). Knowing you can do anything can hint at attitude, but it can also come from well founded confidence. Sometimes it is not bragging, but fact.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

FOODPUMP I agree when I came back from my European apprenticeship I worked in as many upscale places as possible .Leading NY hotels, restaurants , clubs etc. I learn something in each tried to put all the good parts together and incorporate them into my own. I worked Chinese, Italian ,Greek or med, Japanese, French  you name it. I learned authentic native  cuisines. I can't tell you how important this education served me in later years.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, thank you all for the responses. I wondered what experienced people thought.

I did choose to disregard  number 3 for now.

I certainly think he had enough experience.

He was very confident but raised a flag with "I can do it all". I've run across this attitude many times before. It's fine but a majority of past hires with this attitude turned out to be a problem. The major problem being, he is set in his own ways and may not be flexible towards direction from our Chef. Everyone does things different. Our Chefs way is the right way. I have found in the past people will

change, but when left alone, will revert back to the way they are used to doing things.

This usually doesn't happen if we decide to train someone with less experience.. Our Chef and I have been together so long (27yrs. started with me as a plongeur) we accept the fact that we may spend a lot of time training and once trained, they decide to leave. If it is to better themselves or move forward with their career we are positive about. We learned this with apprentices from the local C.C. Many don't leave though. LOL The least tenured of all of us is 8 yrs.

As far as his current situation, there was some eye rolling while explaining about the new Executive Pastry Chef being a younger female. Kind of a good-ole-boy wink wink to me as a male. I don't think he realized or asked but, the 2 young women running the decorating are very strong. He couldn't understand why his new Chef was adamant about everyone following her schedule until she was comfortable.

I learned he was still there but was available ASAP. I have a real problem with someone who is not professional enough to give adequate notice. I assumed he had nowhere to go.

Moving from job to job doesn't really bother me. I did it. It sometimes is the only way to see and learned new things.

I'll keep ya'll posted. 2 more interviews this afternoon.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Whew! Thank you to @foodpump for relaying to everyone that just because one has had many jobs it does not make them a poor choice. I also did as many high-end jobs as I could while living in various countries, including my own country, in order to get a well rounded hands-on education. I made sure that I was at these places at least a year.

I kinda had a different take on all three....


> 1. young, just finishing Culinary program. Little experience. Pretty eager, good interviewer.
> 
> 1. young, 4 yrs. Decorating assistant, small shop, little customer service. No current movement in employment, feels stagnating a little. Pretty shy or introverted. Would need to give notice.
> 
> ...


#1: I thought sounded good. Would hopefully be mouldable and flexible with learning and hours. Bring upbeat young energy to their job. Could also turn the opposite way. They have very little experience and all culinary school. Thinks that if it is not done the culinary school way then you are doing it wrong (staying strong to their culinary school training). this could create drama, confusion and a lot of babysitting and explaining that could be argued with at every turn. They might also not realize the long hours, hard work and patience required for the job itself. I would be asking them what their expectations are for this job position they have applied for and also if they have planned how they wish to grow with your company.

#2: This one has at least some experience. Has been an assistant so keen to move up. They are shy so I would be worried about their ability to communicate effectively with the team, to speak up when need be and to be able to deal with customers effectively. What are they wanting out of your shop to grow their career? How will working with you help them and vice versa.

#3: On paper I am reading that they are great. However, the "needs no direction, can do it all" is also a red-flag. I would clarify everything in the interview as this person is more of a veteran so they should be able to handle more in depth questioning. I would ask them to clarify what they meant by "no direction can do it all". What is the conflict with executive pastry chef all about? Why are they available immediately? What will they be bringing to the table if hired for the position? Can they handle direction well even if they think they know it?

Some people do not know how they come across on paper and in interviews. It is a shame because they can potentially turn out to be the best for your business......or not. I let all the questions I have for each person I interview based on their resume and cover letter, ferret out the ones that really will not work for me and the ones that shine. Of course, I have been known to ask a million questions......lol

I hope it all goes well for ya today @panini! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

After reading all the responses, I'd have to say that I would have no problem hiring numbers 1 and 2 as they can be molded to the way you want it done.

But with number 3, I would gear the interview towards the veteran with specific questions about dough, equipment, scaling procedure, and such, and I too, would ask what the applicant means by being able to "do it all."


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## allanmcpherson (Apr 5, 2007)

Many jobs over a relatively short time might impress me if they were at a variety of geographic locations.  If they were all in the same postal code, that would be a huge red flag.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

After reading this post (not every word) I have a  question.

     What age group are the millennials? Several of my coworkers are younger but I don't know if they are millennials. 

      Calling it a "millennial" problem seems like stereotyping, no?   You wouldn't say "All women or all African Americans or all Asians? 

I'd have to agree that age has little to do with anything in my experience. Over the years I have worked with many people who did not take direction well, refused to learn, refused to work, etc.

Age did not seem to be the issue and I never found any universal characteristic among them, except for poor attitude. Perhaps we could call them the "Attitudinals?

     As for Panini's hiring challenge, I'd have to agree that number 3 is curious, particularly because of the "needs no direction" comment. 

I have found it necessary to inform people i interview with that they should not be surprised if I ask for direction. Because I have a lot of experience, the assumption is often that I won't need any. I am not asking how to do it. I am asking how they want it done, even with tasks as simple as chopping peppers or making chowder.  

     The eye rolling would also concern me. Whether the Exec. Pastry chef is male or female is for me completely irrelevant. They are the boss. One of the things I enjoy most about kitchens is that the work needs to get done. Leadership styles may differ but service begins at the same time every day. You either get it together or not. Incompetence is an equal opportunity failing. 

     Available immediately- not good. I'd have to know why they won't be giving notice. Fwiw, I always insist I will be giving notice, even when I would rather not. I like to see/hear the reaction from the interviewer. If they respond with, "Geez, we really need you to start right away", I will inevitably turn down the job. If they don't see the importance of the respect in giving notice, I know they won't respect me as an employee.


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## boyo1991 (Feb 25, 2013)

panini said:


> @akat
> 
> I'm not the younger team. In fact I am of the older generation. I have encountered some of what you are talking about. You have to learn how to communicate with millennials. This generation comes to work with a little chip on their shoulders. After all, they were raised in a pretty crappy economy, actually a recession. They have been schooled in a very technical atmosphere.
> Just my experience,
> ...


Me being a younger guy, 23, I gotta agree, I mean, I listen. I do... And my hard work has had its appropriate acknowledgments. But that's the point, appropriate. We just want enough money to get what we really need. And yes, sometimes a video game console is a need ;p but this is spot on. We want to be given more responsibility. Be valued versus just another line worker. We want everyone's compliments and to be included. If we aren't included, (or out of the loop) good luck getting most of us back. We are so used to cutting losses it comes naturally. Best way to keep me around, compliment my work personally. Even just a very faint "you were busy, whys it so clean?" If your not one for giving straight compliments works for me. Don't keep cracking the whip, we have enough pressure on ourselves to succeed without going all Hollywood Gordon Ramsey style.. (Jokingly we get, just not for real) encouragement (I.e. "you got this cmon guy!" Vs. "I needed that out 2 mins ago!") Is much better..

Hope this helps!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

It does help, thanks.


chefwriter said:


> After reading this post (not every word) I have a question.
> 
> What age group are the millennials? Several of my coworkers are younger but I don't know if they are millennials.
> 
> ...


@chefwriter

I don't think it's stereotyping or profiling using a label for a generation. It has been totally acceptable to use Gen X, Y, Z and millennial comes from out witnessing 1000 yr. happening of 2000.

Although I might feel different if those labels were used in a negative fashion or were disparaging in any way.

I thought this Y gen were maybe 18 to 35yrs. old. I may be way off though. I think they calculate the beginning when technology entered the education system or classroom.

OK. Update on yesterdays interviews. I decided to give all three a chance to come into the bakery to make something. I always do this. We usually have them spin a cake. I always get a

lot of information out of this. We usually provide clothes or apron, hair restraints and such. After that I don't give too much guidance except," there are cake rounds in the cooler behind you, buttercream on the bench, with tools, sundries being over there. I tend to ignore them from there, keeping an eye on how they acclimate to the surroundings. I see if they go for it and find their way. Or do they ask others in the kitchen a lot of questions to gather things and get started. A person that gets right after it, on there own, gets things ready to start and asks what our bakery or chefs would like to see as a finished product, speaks volumes to me. I'm paying attention to attitude, emotion,organization, speed, and overall sense of what their doing. Then watch sanitation and waste. I really don't give a rats a__ about what the finished product looks like. I box it for them to take.

I called or txted all three to see if they might be able to come in late afternoon Saturday because there would room since chefs will be out delivering and setting up.

OK, Asked them if available Sat 2pm 6pm.

Number 1.Accepted very excited,worried about her lack of professional experience. Asked what to wear?did she need tools? Will be there.

Number 2.Accepted, has to work but will come right over after work. No question but may have been at work.

Number 3 Would be available anytime during week, already had plans for Saturday. You'll called that one right.

Nu


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

I have never even heard "..i`m cold.." in a kitchen, but I guess down here in summer I have worked in 55°C kitchens..

Well thanks for all your comments, sorry I have not responded sooner, been really busy.

I`ll try some of those suggestions. Seems to be an issue with almost EVERYONE I speak to though, in and out of kitchens.

Not to say that all of them young ones are a handful but the ones that are, my gosh, I`m shocked... and shocked that legally it is so hard for me to discipline them such as firing them, cutting hours etc etc. In fact the situation makes me very reluctant to higher younger players right now, which is not the natural order of things.


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

akat said:


> I have never even heard "..i`m cold.." in a kitchen, but I guess down here in summer I have worked in 55°C kitchens..
> 
> Well thanks for all your comments, sorry I have not responded sooner, been really busy.
> 
> ...


lol

San Francisco.... 3am... its alwasys cold out  More so in summer!!!


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## turtile (Jun 9, 2015)

The Millenial generation is the largest generation.  And with that, you'll get a large number of people applying in service jobs that can't do much more.  Given that many services jobs don't pay enough to make a living, many hard workers will do anything to get out of the line of work.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

boyo1991 said:


> Me being a younger guy, 23, I gotta agree, I mean, I listen. I do... And my hard work has had its appropriate acknowledgments. But that's the point, appropriate. We just want enough money to get what we really need. And yes, sometimes a video game console is a need ;p but this is spot on. We want to be given more responsibility. Be valued versus just another line worker. We want everyone's compliments and to be included. If we aren't included, (or out of the loop) good luck getting most of us back. We are so used to cutting losses it comes naturally. Best way to keep me around, compliment my work personally. Even just a very faint "you were busy, whys it so clean?" If your not one for giving straight compliments works for me. Don't keep cracking the whip, we have enough pressure on ourselves to succeed without going all Hollywood Gordon Ramsey style.. (Jokingly we get, just not for real) encouragement (I.e. "you got this cmon guy!" Vs. "I needed that out 2 mins ago!") Is much better..
> 
> Hope this helps!


Actually this does not help. This is unfortunately an example of what the Millenials are all about....not all but some.

Why is it so important to have that compliment when you are simply doing the job you are being being paid to do?

It seems like this is a theme that resonates throughout.

Sure, everyone enjoys getting a compliment after a hard day and to be singled out as such is a real high, but it is not necessary all the time.

*"We are so used to cutting loses it comes naturally."*

This would be a personal attribute my friend and to say that about all of your generation would be a falsehood.

Most Millenials I have spoken with can't even tell you where the food they eat comes from.

To them cooking is putting something into a microwave and pushing the on button


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Chefross ,

I just mentioned it helps. and for me it does, especially in understanding this generation. I think there is about 80 mill. Millennials. probably more then 30 mill. in the workforce today.

This gen Y has had a pretty rough time of it, while coming up. Coming up in a recession stinks. The economy sucks, there are no good jobs or jobs at all. Y lives at home because they have to. The old upper-middle class has sunk down to lower middle-class.

I try not to lump all the millennials together. I strongly disagree with you about common knowledge like food. My experience is that Y certainly knows where their food comes from and is involved

it trying to make it sustainable and keep the planet habitable. Our generation was based on money, if it was making money it didn't give a rats a-- what they did to the planet as long as the buck was coming in.

Showing Millennials some respect, and thanking them for putting up with our generation, which has pretty well fuc___d up the economy and the country and taken a lot of opportunity away from Y I feel is appropriate.

I really feel it is the job of former middle income workers of our gen to mentor these people.

I'm gonna step of my milk crate.

But, I have to tell you, in my little part of our generation, we relied heavily on a war economy. When at war, the upper class was happy with everyone working and inflation. I have to say that I really feel for these young kids.Shitty economy and going off to war. They are NO DIFFERENT then we were. As middle to lower class we were drafted into a Fu___d up war. Half who went over saw combat. Of the 2-3 million that went over to Viet Nam, maybe 30% were drafted.

I understand about the little pat on the ass for a job well done, we never got it when we came home. My gen and friends yearned for a small thank you. It never came. *So we cut our losses and moved on.*


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

So I just became the old Generation. Not a boomer I dunno what they call me (35) but I don't expect to ever hire someone who lives up to my expectations, be it a boomer an X Y or a Z. Ever. Maybe I'll get lucky someday but the good old days are over. 

Millenials wouldnt believe the stories of how kitchens were ran even 15 years ago.

Going to be 20 metres from the building soon to smoke. 
How are the lowest paid help in society expected to get through their ( hard) lives without being able to smoke and drink. 

Our expectations are sometimes to find a harder working version of our selves. Not going to happen. At least you wont see it happening. 

There are however exceptions to the rule but I probably wouldnt have hired the ppl who came through my kitchens except for necessity. I certainly wont re-hire any of them. Eye opening experience this business is.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

chefboyOG said:


> So I just became the old Generation. Not a boomer I dunno what they call me (35) but I don't expect to ever hire someone who lives up to my expectations, be it a boomer an X Y or a Z. Ever. Maybe I'll get lucky someday but the good old days are over.
> 
> Millenials wouldnt believe the stories of how kitchens were ran even 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


Oh my, you're right. No smoking and drinking!?

My gen used to escape with more harder drugs to achieve an altered state of consciousness./img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif Along with lengthy talks with my millennials and their friends, I have found that there seems to be much less use of ASC drugs. They appear to be more health conscious and weed seems to be the popular choice. I still don't understand, my son tried to explain vaporizing to me./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

No, he's not a doper. He graduated college and is in Mountain View Cal. Working for a well know company.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Interesting reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/10-things-generation-x-wont-tell-you-2014-06-27

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-henseler/millennials-and-boomers-generation-x_b_5253931.html

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...n-has-worse/3vhfpB2PCGOSHD2mEX1AwM/story.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

http://www.inc.com/peter-economy/11-things-you-really-should-know-about-generation-y.html

https://hbr.org/2012/09/solving-gen-ys-passion-problem

http://www.socialmarketing.org/newsletter/features/generation3.htm

Of course there is tons out there in articles on these subjects and by no means am I citing these one as THE articles to look at. I enjoyed the reading and noticed how they play to a different audience in their wording so that you can tell what generation the writer themselves belonged to. I think it helps us understand each generation more and why we think the way we do. That is just one thought of many. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks if the OP @akat doesn't mind the extension of their thread. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

It is difficult for me to understand where you are coming from because I came from a lower middle class family with very little money to make ends meet.

Mom did a great job feeding and clothing the 5 of us on Dad's salary.

I had a job and was working from 15 years old on.

I have a great work ethic and am motivated.

I see this lacking in today's youth in that they need that constant re-enforcement or they'll walk.

Many of them feel entitled to a job with full benefits right away. They have no patience, no feel for the job, and could care less about all of it.

Panini:

To me, there is no difference what generation you are talking about.

The label thing is curious as well.

The attitude and motivation are taught at home by a parent or guardian.

Life lesson shape each and everyone one of us.

I do not believe for one moment that a supervisor, owner, or manager must change their belief system to match the generation at hand.

People will respond to direction if they are given proper training.

People will act a certain way if taught to act that way.

Kowtowing is never necessary.

If you want to sugar coat life for these people and allow them to rule how you manage people, then by all means, but it's not my understanding to do so.


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## boyo1991 (Feb 25, 2013)

Chefross said:


> Actually this does not help. This is unfortunately an example of what the Millenials are all about....not all but some.
> 
> Why is it so important to have that compliment when you are simply doing the job you are being being paid to do?
> It seems like this is a theme that resonates throughout.
> ...


Aahh I see where your coming from then, sorry my mistake, I'm just giving an example of me I guess.

Why do I like compliments for "doing a job I'm supposed to do"? It's just a matter of saying that I can do it. A matter that I am actually capable of the job. Maybe it's just me as we have figured out, but I really do get down on myself something fierce and when someone comes by and tells me that I am doing just fine, that's all I need to wipe away my negative thoughts.


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## canele (Apr 7, 2015)

boyo1991 said:


> Aahh I see where your coming from then, sorry my mistake, I'm just giving an example of me I guess.
> 
> Why do I like compliments for "doing a job I'm supposed to do"? It's just a matter of saying that I can do it. A matter that I am actually capable of the job. Maybe it's just me as we have figured out, but I really do get down on myself something fierce and when someone comes by and tells me that I am doing just fine, that's all I need to wipe away my negative thoughts.


hi boyo

and this is where i said that i am not peoples mother. I am not there to hold their hands and pat them on their heads like children. You are an adult and should not need constant positive reinforcement to do your job. A job is not a carrot and stick..... its your job. You are paid to do it well. Parenting is exhausting.... parenting my employees is not going to happen.

my nephew is a millennial. He will come from a place where everyone MUST be invited to birthday parties even if you dont like them. A place where there are no winners or losers... a place were everyone gets a ribbon for participating.... a place where no one can offend his itty bitty feeling. An entire world where instant gratification is not fast though and everything is just handed to him as if it is is right to have it all. He will come from the milennial world where the world relvolves around him.

ive told his mother there will come a very bad day when he has to live and compete in the real world and not everyone will get a ribbon for just participating.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Wow, sounds like a bunch of cheap shots/img/vbsmilies/smilies/talker.gif

This, just my own take. Attitude and motivation are not taught,they are assimilated by watching and listening to the surroundings.I have not consciously taught motivation or attitude. Funny though. My children are more motivated and successful then I'll ever be.

Well, If your work experience is your belief system, what ever that means. If you're talking about adapting to a different style of management to remain current and communicate well with my associates, then yes. HELL YES! Who is the beneficiary of doing that??? ME!!! If I'm maintaining successful business practices in a productive manner without having to waste my time wondering why people don't follow direction, why they're lazy, why do they need positive reinforcement, why don't they understand my work ethic, why they don't have to go through what I went through, then that's the way I'm going. Sure, I can bitch, moan and complain every time I think or hear about this upcoming workforce, (sound familiar ) but I personally choose to remove all that stress from myself.

My god it's 2015, we're not in Kansas anymore. I choose not to retire because I still enjoy my job. It's only going to take 10 yrs. before 80 million gen y's are in the workforce and running things. I just don't want to picture myself with my finger up my butt, still bitching and moaning wondering, Que Paso??.

* People will respond to direction if they are given proper training.*

What? this contradicts everything that you'll have said.

I'll bet that people will eventually NOT respond to older style management ways.

I personally have never kowtowed to anyone and don't plan to do so in the future.

These so called* people* have not, and will not, dictate how I manage.

I'm going to put this thread to sleep . No more posts for me, feels like I'm pissi__g into a fan. You older chefs are right. I want to be like you. Your way is always right, I bow to you, Sorry flashback

Honestly, all I want, is to make sure no one has to go through that old fashioned crap like I did. Looking back, it was so unproductive. I still wake up with nightmares about those primitive old chefs.

The real reason I went into business for myself 25 yrs. ago was to avoid that environment for my coworkers.

BTW I did happen upon a few great old Chefs who chose to teach me everything, rather then criticize everything. Also putting up with my bad choices.


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't mind at all. I`m finding it very interesting that this is a global phenomena.

I have found that every now and then I will get a young-one that is just great, but it turns out they have been working the line, or the sink or SOMETHING since they were like 15. Does that have something to do with why they are so different from the others ?


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@akat I wonder the same thing myself. I think that giving youth at that age the responsibility in the workforce might give them a better perspective of how life is in the real world than their peers who don't get a job until 18+. Although that is more of a perceived humble opinion than solid fact.....lol. I am also finding this all extremely interesting to say the least and enjoy the take on all perspectives.

@panini you resonate profoundly and your stance on this and are reciprocated in kind by more than a few of us.

For some of us we understand that we are the dodo birds and its time to change our feathers or go by way of extinction. This does mean it is "WE" who must learn the language of the generation that will take over after us or we lose. It is as simple as that. Ask any elder that is alive today how they perceived us "whippersnappers" coming into the work place and not knowing nor understanding what the elders had to say or the way they were doing things. We made them change their language and ways as the new gen Y's will do to us. It is just the way things are. This does not mean we HAVE to change....it is just more sensical. The old way of yelling at people and making them feel worthless in the kitchen is done. It is a type of insecurity one has because you had this done to you so you feel others must make the next gen "pay their dues". It is unfortunate then as you have not learned a bloody thing but to be a part of the problem. I am pretty sure there are a lot of generation X'ers on here (1965-1980) that feel this way as a result of our very tough upbringings in a economically, socially and politically unsound environment that felt like it's eat or be eaten. It has not been fun for us however, it is our generation that birthed this gen Y one and so it falls to us to see them through and make them better then we ever could be......in and out of the kitchens. So stop being afraid to ask the questions of what motivates them, how do they see us doing this better, etc. This will get you way more bang for your buck as a head chef and as an owner. Alrighty....off soapbox...hehe. This is just one's opinion based on some long years in this industry as a chef and owner. I hope it gets easier for everyone as more gen Y's enter the industry and become the dominate workforce. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

About cell phones...perhaps some intelligence agency could point to some kind of paint to block cell phone usage.  It would certainly help employees' IQ's, eyeballs, brain waves and thumb-carpal-tunnel symptoms.  As for customers, maybe it would be a good way to increase use of the outdoor patio.

I'll be quiet now.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@Fablesable

WHOA,WHOA, (1965 to 1980)?? I guess I'm a real baby boomer then. I already had my first job in 1965


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

@panini Holy schmoly......you really are old huh?? LOL.....just kidding!! Yea.....that is the quoted years they are saying are the gen X years.


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## onlyflowers (May 29, 2015)

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


chefboyOG said:


> So I just became the old Generation. Not a boomer I dunno what they call me (35) but I don't expect to ever hire someone who lives up to my expectations, be it a boomer an X Y or a Z. Ever. Maybe I'll get lucky someday but the good old days are over.
> 
> Millenials wouldnt believe the stories of how kitchens were ran even 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


You sound bitter, bitter, bitter. Shame that from your hardships was borne this idiotic idea that nobody is capable of meeting your expectations. You're only 35 and you've got the attitude of a grouch 75-year old. I can't imagine anybody younger wanting to work for somebody like that. But regardless, I hope you move beyond this idea that there are no good workers or anybody younger than yourself capable of *GASP* even _imagining_ what it was like in big bad kitchens in the days of yore....15 years ago


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

My hardships? Im 35 and still kicking ass. Its not idiotic at all that I have to lower my expectations, just the truth. 

Not bitter at all just have to work with what I got/ get. I said there are exceptions, my current team is amazing, millenials, old farts, middle age know it alls etc, dont take me too far out of context or read too much into it. Calling me bitter and shaming me says a lot not about me, but you. Im still good looking, go look in the mirror and tell me what you really think about my post.

Good ol days for me are over lol Im turning middle age, its facts not bitterness. Try not to judge so hard yourself, eye of the beholder. 

You could smoke and drink in the kitchens here big bad kitchens of yore, things have changed dramatically, especially for thise who dont evolve.

PS tell me what you really think.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

OnlyFlowers said:


> /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif
> 
> You sound bitter, bitter, bitter. Shame that from your hardships was borne this idiotic idea that nobody is capable of meeting your expectations. You're only 35 and you've got the attitude of a grouch 75-year old. I can't imagine anybody younger wanting to work for somebody like that. But regardless, I hope you move beyond this idea that there are no good workers or anybody younger than yourself capable of *GASP* even _imagining_ what it was like in big bad kitchens in the days of yore....15 years ago


Alrighty then,

First, please let us stop with the (old fart) (75 yr. old Grouch) (know it alls) (days of yore) I resemble all those comments!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

@Raibeaux


Raibeaux said:


> About cell phones...perhaps some intelligence agency could point to some kind of paint to block cell phone usage. It would certainly help employees' IQ's, eyeballs, brain waves and thumb-carpal-tunnel symptoms. As for customers, maybe it would be a good way to increase use of the outdoor patio.
> 
> I'll be quiet now.


Unfortunately for your idea, the intelligence and technology communities are going in the complete opposite direction. My son is currently working on some kind of secretive project. From what little I know, he tells me that in the near future there will not be a need to have a physical phone. We will be able to communicate at will. There will be ways to instantly get the location of anyone, anywhere in the world. Your health analysis will be available through your skin without the use of any physical machine and provide prognosis and remedies instantly. Now that's crazy!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif

@OnlyFlowers

chefboy's an ok person. A little twisted maybe/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

I kinda have a hard time reading that somebody is soo critical when the author is soo critical.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

I have been in this business a lot of years and have trained people from different generations. It was only recently that I found I had apparently lost my ability to train. So maybe it's me. But I'm not doing anything different than I ever did. The changes I have noticed between previous generations and (with very few exceptions) this one, is the current generation sees everyone as their equal. They don't recognize authority figures as such, so they don't understand that their boss is just that and it's the boss' job to tell them what they are supposed to do. They resent it. They will never ask a question of someone who is older and might actually know what to do about a problem. Instead they'll confer with each other, come to a general conclusion and then proceed to ruin a $100 case of walleye because they didn't know how to skin it and weren't about to ask someone that actually would have known. Then it's "My bad", or "It's all good" and on their merry way they go. They have no sense of speed or urgency (why should they hurry up?) they can't figure anything out, as in total lack of common sense, but yet they already know everything. Everyone claims they're smarter, but if they are, they're sure not applying it. They may be great on the phone or with social media, but I see serious problems with time management and the ability to prioritize tasks. I had one that I showed repeatedly how to make mashed potatoes. He never would do it right. One day he told another employee that he had started doing it my way. I overheard it and asked him what inspired that change. He said "Well I finally decided your way was better than mine." Never dawned on him to do it the way I told him because I was his boss and that's the way we did it. They want respect, but they don't give it and they don't realize you have to earn it. As pointed out by someone earlier, I may be dealing with the worst of the bunch because of the issue of low pay in the food industry. I had a choice. Keep putting up with them and have a nervous breakdown, or quit the business. I quit the business after more than 40 years. I guess it was time.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Originally Posted by *greyeaglem*



> ... The changes I have noticed between previous generations and (with very few exceptions) this one, is the current generation sees everyone as their equal. They don't recognize authority figures as such, so they don't understand that their boss is just that and it's the boss' job to tell them what they are supposed to do. They resent it. They will never ask a question of someone who is older and might actually know what to do about a problem. Instead they'll confer with each other, come to a general conclusion and then proceed to ruin a $100 case of walleye because they didn't know how to skin it and weren't about to ask someone that actually would have known. Then it's "My bad", or "It's all good" and on their merry way they go. They have no sense of speed or urgency (why should they hurry up?) they can't figure anything out, as in total lack of common sense, but yet they already know everything. Everyone claims they're smarter, but if they are, they're sure not applying it.


I dunno.... I've been witnessing this type of behavior for close to 30 years now, and I can't attribute it to any particular group. I call it the "Sinatra effect" (I did it MY way....)

Take, for example, my business neighbor, 60 yr old cabinet making contractor who bought two business units next to mine. Bought them as an investment, but couldn't rent them out. Sees me operating my café, and figures he can do it too. All of a sudden he's got an espresso machine, bar fridge, d/washer and stove in his unit. No ventilation, no grease trap, and only 100 amps and no gas lines. Fighting with the strata and City hall about his lack of infrastructure, he's got liens in lieu of countless fines, but he knows it all and everyone else is an eejit.

I figure the "Sinatras" have always been there, and always will, I just can't attribute them to any one group.


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

I periodically get into a "what's the use" frame of mind.  I'm in one now.  Telling/showing over and over  the same people how to cook a hamburger, for one of many examples.  They will invariably put the patty on the grill, cook it until overdone, leave it on the grill while they s l o w l y go put the bun into the toaster, s l o w l y walk back to the makeup unit, s l o w l y dress the buns (all the while the patty is drying out/shrinking on the grill.  It's as though they really enjoy driving me nutz.  Actually, I'm pretty sure that's part of it, the other part being that the less they do correctly the less they will be told to do.  I know...bad attitude on my part.  'Scuse me!

No worries, though, the government will force your employer to increase your wages, benefits, working conditions, make it harder to get fired, etc.  No need to actually perform at an acceptable level.  Who does that guy think he is, telling me I'm doing something WRONG?  Good work ethics and pride are old-fashioned ideas that have no place in today's enlightened society.  If it feels good, do it!   Then do it again!  

I feel better.  I'm going to work now.  I'm late, but I can't get fired either.  Wishing I could get wage increases, cooler kitchen, benefits, etc. mandated and paid for, but not standing on one leg while waiting for it.

"I've always wanted to open a restaurant".  (famous quote repeated a gazillion times)  Usually followed by "What the hell have I done?"

P.S.


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## turtile (Jun 9, 2015)

Raibeaux said:


> I periodically get into a "what's the use" frame of mind. I'm in one now. Telling/showing over and over the same people how to cook a hamburger, for one of many examples. They will invariably put the patty on the grill, cook it until overdone, leave it on the grill while they s l o w l y go put the bun into the toaster, s l o w l y walk back to the makeup unit, s l o w l y dress the buns (all the while the patty is drying out/shrinking on the grill. It's as though they really enjoy driving me nutz. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's part of it, the other part being that the less they do correctly the less they will be told to do. I know...bad attitude on my part. 'Scuse me!
> 
> No worries, though, the government will force your employer to increase your wages, benefits, working conditions, make it harder to get fired, etc. No need to actually perform at an acceptable level. Who does that guy think he is, telling me I'm doing something WRONG? Good work ethics and pride are old-fashioned ideas that have no place in today's enlightened society. If it feels good, do it! Then do it again!
> 
> ...


I think it's important to scale the pay for a good employee. There are definitely people who aren't worth minimum wage while you have someone else only making $3 more per hour producing three times as much. It's hard to motivate someone to work extra hard if there's very little reward for going above and beyond.

Have they ever tried one of the burgers after they've cooked it... They may need a lot of water to get it down!


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

Raibeaux said:


> I periodically get into a "what's the use" frame of mind. I'm in one now. Telling/showing over and over the same people how to cook a hamburger, for one of many examples. They will invariably put the patty on the grill, cook it until overdone, leave it on the grill while they s l o w l y go put the bun into the toaster, s l o w l y walk back to the makeup unit, s l o w l y dress the buns (all the while the patty is drying out/shrinking on the grill. It's as though they really enjoy driving me nutz. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's part of it, the other part being that the less they do correctly the less they will be told to do. I know...bad attitude on my part. 'Scuse me!
> 
> No worries, though, the government will force your employer to increase your wages, benefits, working conditions, make it harder to get fired, etc. No need to actually perform at an acceptable level. Who does that guy think he is, telling me I'm doing something WRONG? Good work ethics and pride are old-fashioned ideas that have no place in today's enlightened society. If it feels good, do it! Then do it again!
> 
> ...


Love this post! So on the mark. They're going to have to dumb it down for these people because otherwise they are totally unemployable. I hear this from people in other industries too. They have us collectively ripping our hair out. According to them, they feel the future for jobs is in creating apps and games. So while they're making up games and apps for each other, who's picking up the trash? That will never dawn on them. I love the movie Idiocracy because it's so true, and it's now. As for previous generations, we did not dare talk back to or question a boss. They'd kick us out the door so fast we wouldn't know what hit us. That's the generational difference most of us are talking about. his bunch just doesn't care. I know a retired teacher who said his last few years of teaching were the best because the students just didn't care. Wouldn't do homework etc. and there was no consequences for them. So he really didn't have to do any kind of discipline or have to push them. He said it was very relaxing. What a sad state of affairs. Glad you have the patience to hang in there. I felt like I was being buried alive. I couldn't take a week-end night off for anything because the place would fall apart without me. I will say though that until they graduated from college I had two of the best guys anyone could ever employ. so they are out there, but you have to kiss a million frogs to find a prince.


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

foodpump said:


> Originally Posted by *greyeaglem*
> 
> I dunno.... I've been witnessing this type of behavior for close to 30 years now, and I can't attribute it to any particular group. I call it the "Sinatra effect" (I did it MY way....)
> 
> ...


Well you'll always have those people that think running a food establishment is easy. There is no shortage of them out there. But I consider that simple stupidity. And I have run across those people throughout the years. But even the ones that weren't the brightest were at least trainable. To try to train someone now is like talking to a brick wall. They don't seem to pay attention and are more focused with coming up with new ideas and improvements for processes they don't even understand yet. They seem to think they were hired for their brilliance and ideas. And I was not a dictator in the kitchen. When making menu or process changes, I included all staff in discussions about how any changes might affect the overall process. Unfortunately for me, that translated into I didn't know what I was doing and therefore needed their imput on any and everything. Which resulted in a lot of arguments. I would never have dreamed (as a young worker) of questioning my bosses or putting in my two cents without being asked. And they never asked us. I tried to include my crew in decision making and allowing them to have some say and it blew up in my face. I wound up coming off to them as ineffective and less than competent. Better to be a dictator.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Nope, my 60yr old contractor/restaurateur neighbor has the same crap coursing through his veins as your ranch dressing-in-the-mashed-pots cook:

-Refuses to comprehend that someone other than himself has control over a situation

-Refuses to comprehend that his/her actions will affect others

-Refuses to comprehend that there are rules in place for reasons like safety, consistency, and efficiency

-Refuses to accept and goes to great lengths to get around the fact that his/her mistake was costly and could have been avoided if they followed instructions

My neighbor guy plugged up our building's plumbing  because he "didn't need a grease trap, or anything like that" in spite of Strata demands to do so.  All of us have to pay a 12 grand plumbing bill, he refuses to pay, and is whinging non stop about the lien on his place.

One of the most famous lines from my wife was "Oh, the little oil light on the dashboard?  It's been on for weeks, but the car still works great" .  Replacing a blown head gasket had nothing to do with that...

Stupid and stubborn aren't racists, they love any group.......


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## greyeaglem (Apr 17, 2006)

foodpump said:


> Nope, my 60yr old contractor/restaurateur neighbor has the same crap coursing through his veins as your ranch dressing-in-the-mashed-pots cook:
> 
> -Refuses to comprehend that someone other than himself has control over a situation
> 
> ...


I hear you. I'm surprised your wife didn't blow the engine and it wasn't more than a head gasket. Wow! And then they wonder why we drink. I wonder why we don't drink more!


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

greyeaglem said:


> I hear you. I'm surprised your wife didn't blow the engine and it wasn't more than a head gasket. Wow! And then they wonder why we drink. I wonder why we don't drink more!


I've taken up drinking just about every day after dealing with the people I deal with; all the while shaking my head slowly. My wife is beginning to truly wonder about my sanity!!!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore. I just wanted to put something out there. I'm taking a kind of brush up accounting course this summer. Something I do every once in a while. My degree is about 42-3 yrs. old. So it's worthless now. I happen to have quite a few younger people in the class along with some old farts like me. Some of the older ones are from the food service field as well as some of the young.

  Most of us got together the other day and grabbed some lunch and discussed some tax yadda, yadda,. I noticed some disdain on the part of the older people in conversation. I then realized there was almost resentment. 

   These young people were very smart, well versed and educated on various topics. I thought about this thread on the way home and wondered if part of this communication problem with the young and old and the criticism comes from a little jealously that this younger generation is just plain smarter then us. Just wondering.


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## left4bread (May 8, 2009)

Raibeaux said:


> About cell phones...perhaps some intelligence agency could point to some kind of paint to block cell phone usage. It would certainly help employees' IQ's, eyeballs, brain waves and thumb-carpal-tunnel symptoms. As for customers, maybe it would be a good way to increase use of the outdoor patio.
> 
> I'll be quiet now.


I could point you to a cell phone blocker,

"2013 new created modularized design. Total 8 signal bands. Covers most of the popular wireless signal channels, including all mobile phones (2G, 3G, 4G), UHF&VHF walkie-talkie and audio bug, LoJack tracker, GPS tracker, WiFi Bluetooth 2.4GHz, remote control and so on."

but the FCC says,

"The FCC Enforcement Bureau has a zero tolerance policy in this area and will take aggressive action against violators."

Thought about it a few years back (more??) when texting had really picked up and everyone was on myspace all the time. Drove me nuts. Damn kids with their cell phones, long hair, and hoola hoops. But I was told in some forum or other that you where likely to get a visit from some federal agents.

I'll be quiet now.


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

Actually, it was a joke.


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## left4bread (May 8, 2009)

Not to me. I was actually going to get one for my prep kitchen until I found out how illegal they were.


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## chef mills (Jun 28, 2015)

Starters in our fields need to be shown what's expected from them. While, my kitchen is starting out with two new line cooks, I start the conversations of where I stand on instructions, rule of kitchen, and basic respect for coworkers (and also ask, ask, ask questions.) Since they're young it's difficult for them to understand to find where the lines are crossed. I experienced in some cases that they are just testing where and what they can get away with responsibilities. As all great persons, find the common ground between yourself and them, but how this is said "easily" is actually harder to do in action.

Firstly, they're young: Finding themselves as the one getting picked on in the kitchen is the cause of the root problem. Ask them to do a task then, leave it to them, just walk away. If the job is done thank them for they're progress. I think as once a student, my instructor always says good job or thank you, in such a way I was thankful for my work. On the other hand, if the job is not done, explain what happens in the future if that job is not done. Alike this: Now, John, has to work faster and longer hours to get your part of the job done before he goes home. Then walk away. As for the walking away part I believe it gives them no time to explain for easy tasks and sometimes leaves the person in shame, emotionally.

Common ground: young people are confused: As they're trying find there places in life shown them that they're presences are something to enjoy. Talk, joke around, while doing work. Talk about life and your hardships, the good and the bad. Cause that is what you and they are experiencing daily. Maybe they're having a tough time at home and possibly bring their attitudes to work. Talk about that what makes problems in their foods which create and the work they have to do. Show them methods of keeping them clean from life to work.

Shape them and put your foot down: One method my head chef shows to us where the lines are is to take a walk. In this walk she explains to us what's the problem and how she expects us to ac in this manner. Then, she ask us what are we going to do next time this problem arrives. The next step if the problem isn't resolved: Write a note to file with HR, and have an HR meeting with them. Next is to send them home for a day and ask to be better next time. 

Although, our methods isn't how other companies do so, we pride ourselves in work and problems to progress if they aren't address. Make sure your get feed back from any upper mgmt to bounce ides of punishment and progress. Good luck.


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## freddy12712 (Jun 1, 2015)

akat said:


> ... I`m finding it really hard to give instruction to allot of my younger cooks and floor staff. They just don't like being told what to do.
> 
> I don't have a temper , much, but f*** me are they precious ! Any tips from the younger team out there on how to actually get through that massive head ? how have times changed !


Im 22, and i dont think thats normal, i would write them up or something. they sound like theyve never had a job before.


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## freddy12712 (Jun 1, 2015)

Fablesable said:


> Whew! Thank you to @foodpump for relaying to everyone that just because one has had many jobs it does not make them a poor choice. I also did as many high-end jobs as I could while living in various countries, including my own country, in order to get a well rounded hands-on education. I made sure that I was at these places at least a year.
> 
> I kinda had a different take on all three....
> 
> ...


To be fair, im terrible at answering interview questions, but im a great employee.


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## ben oliver (Jun 29, 2015)

It's not as bad as it seems, you probably just got a bad group. For me I either give them the option to smarten up, or show them the door. It's important that you make yourself clear to them. Don't hint at them being fired, look them in the eye and tell them they will be let go if they do not straighten up.


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

I agree actually. I got a new guy, I think he's 22 as well but he's great ! As you say though, this guy has also been working since he was 15 or 16 so I guess he has noticed good ways to make moves around a kitchen... I do like watching him boss about some of the older (yet less experienced !) guys, funny and useful !


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## kilz (Jun 28, 2015)

24, here, work in a rather shit kitchen where our burgers are preformed and our equipment.. equally lacking. I interviewed as a dishwasher and worked a few such shifts, but quickly started on cold side (salads and such) got a raise and started hot side (grill, fryer, griddle) Relatively quickly. Id done dishes for years at the point i began here, a year ago. I have always been told my work ethic is great, i know it to be true, but, i will say i need a reason to do my job. Not necessarily a big picture, but, a reason to defer from my job tondo yours, 'can you help me prep som toms, i have alot to prep.', i knew my place as a dishwasher, i knew that if the cooks had no plates they had no dinner but, the correct phrasing is all it takes to get ME to do more. When i started cold side i took it upon myself to learn hots rythm so that my apps.went out on time and not with themeal. I had to learn by asking questions AND by observing this kitchen. 
I think Panini, Cheffross, and the OP, have food points but i believe sir Panini has the best mindset here. Generations before me were trained in a certain way, that training cannot have been based aoley on how they were trained, instead molded from the combo. of their trainers stlye and the trainees specific needs, wants ideals.... 
Times change, and what i value more in my managers is a sense of mutual respect, a human level is all it takes! Just the sense that wht i say means something to the higher up means alot to me, and is the reason that im at the kitchen im at instead of just quitting, read not showing up which ive done..

That said, what, specifically are you pros looking for, because i find that the OP in particular isnt quite sure. I have some experience and a overwhelming desire to learn, in all subjects not just food, but i WILL question authority and routine, and i WILL ask simple stupid questiojs, probably far too often. I ask this question genuinly as a way to help us, the young'ns and to help you pros to think more practically and honestly. 

Ps: i sincerely apologize for my grammar and typing skills... ising a tablet, ill start commenting/posting on a computer ha.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

@kilz

Good post. I don't think you're alone in your journey. The opportunity is there to advance quickly, The new road to get there might be a little different.

I really believe in SCORE. I think it's important to mentor people so they know what to expect out of a career. I had the most interesting discussion a few nights ago.

It was a nice size group 13 young up and comers. I like to use the old phrases, they get a kick out of it. We talked for hours about many things. This is off topic a little bit but,

I was really amazed how civic-minded these individuals were. I'm not sure if it was just this group, but they seemed to think almost everyone their age was on the same page.

The most interesting part of this discussion was when the topic of unions came up. I got the sense that there seemed to be a need for this generation to unify. A good way

to actually make a difference in the world. It was apparent it was a priority .Here is something to put in your pipe. They all expressed an interest in how unions are now vs back

when they were stronger. There was a general feeling that a strong 100% participation union might be the key to a companies success. They were really positive about a

-Leave No One Behind- structure. I was fascinated.

Curious what folks here thought?


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## clairelv (Apr 29, 2015)

Phaedrus said:


> My only real issue with the younger generation is that most of them think it's their constitutional right to be on their cell phones all day. It drives me nuts!


you are right ,i don't know if i am new generation but i am on my phone all day even i know it is not good . hard to explain , maybe just because the technology developed so fast that we don't know how to adapt it and we less friends .really really , we don't talk face to face any more .we don't write letter on paper any more . we don't visit our friends as often as before . so what we can do when we are free .boring ,and lonely ? cell phone is a good choice at these time ........

so , maybe the matter is our society instead of ourselves we really should mind this when we are talking about the issue , and do not blame your child randomly .


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I don't understand..... Are you saying that anyone under the age of 25 has no choice, and has to be bonded with electronics from the womb until death?


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## kilz (Jun 28, 2015)

I barely use my phone, its a flip phone ha. Its a matter of how people are raised not just when. Gettin into the good ol nature vs nurture argument here but to me, the subjects of phones leans toward nurture.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I walked through the FOH today and saw a table of three women. All three were intently focused on their individual phones. Later on when I came back through on my return to the kitchen, the same scenario was still playing out. Why bother going out to lunch with others when you are only going to interact with your cell phone? LOL, I couldn't help but chuckle that maybe they were texting each other!!!


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## kilz (Jun 28, 2015)

I find it reallly sad how obsessed my amd my younger generations are with their phones. I always cringe a little when i see people walking around both with atleast one earphone in, its bugged me since highschool. Just seems rude and pointless to talk to aomeone whos not listening..


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

My son works for a large Internet co in Cal. He has told me that they are so used to texting that at times he will text a person that is 2 ft.away, forgetting they were there. He says the weird thing is

that person will actually turn their head to acknowledge, then turn back and return the text.

Technology talk make me feel sooo old.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Maybe I should feel old, sad, or depressed, but I don't.  

I have the biggest, smuggest, sh*t-eating-grin on my face,  and can honestly tell you that I have never owned a cell phone, and have no intentions of ever doing so.


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

Im reading/ typing this on a 6 + and will never own a computer again 

When I see two people on their phones in the kitchen I ask them if they are texting each other about work. Or I'll just stand by them and pull my phone out making maybe a more inappropriate remark.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah, I hear you.  The way I've dealt with phone usage in the workplace is to inform each and every staff to keep their phone in their locker. What they do on their breaks and lunch time is their business, but no phones in the kitchen.  Emergencies at home can be dealt with via the landline in the office.  About 10% of my hires challenge this rule, and my response is always the same: drop their shifts to 8 hrs a week and watch them leave....

Meh... I "grew up" in the pager era.  I seriously doubt if anyone under the age of 25 knows what a pager was.  A pager is a device--about the size of a modern phone or smaller, that had one and only function:  If someone wanted to contact you, they would call your pager number, your pager would beep and the number you were supposed to call would appear on the screen.  Several of the hotels I worked at issued management with pagers.  Thing was, the only phones available were in the Chef's office.  So if your pager beeped, you had to drop everything, unlock the office and call up to find out who called you.  Of course, about every other time the phone rang, it was someone calling to see who paged them.   Usually by the second week, I left the (deleted) pager in a drawer and never touched it until I gave it back to the Hotel when I left......    By the time cell phones become small enough to fit into a pocket and didn't cost thousands of dollars, you were locked into 3 or 4 year "Contracts"  Every cellphone user I knew then seriously regretted getting locked into a contract, and I figured I'd wait.

That's not to say I don't use them, I use them when provoked, but I don't own one, and hate the idea of whipping out my reading glasses to peer at a tiny screen.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I hated the pager the most of all technology communications.

In the early days of our company, I would spend quite a few hours a day driving around gathering ingredients. To small for a truck delivery. My pager went off constantly.

I'd drive in circles trying to find a phone, get parking tickets while running to a pay phone. Go into strange businesses and ask to use their phone. I could'nt ignore it

because when I got back, they needed something from where I was at 30 miles away.

 I actually threw a few away. One time I was running crazy to answer a page. I drove into a hotel, of course they had valet only. I really had to use the restroom.

I ran in and again, the pager/beeper goes off. I pitched it into the urinal and left. Threw one out the window on a highway.

The cell phone is a close second. I just can't drive my car and answer the phone at the same time..I dispise the callers that think that hitting the redial is going to make me  answer quicker.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

panini said:


> the pager/beeper goes off. I pitched it into the urinal and left.


Somehow that seems so..... fitting. That's the word I'm looking for.

Makes you wonder who picked it up, rinsed it off, and sold it to a buddy --or Boss......


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## maximuscc2828 (Jul 15, 2015)

Hire better people. I'm great at reading people and would never allow the s#%t you described in my kitchen.


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## cheftorres87 (Sep 7, 2014)

Millennial 1980-1995 that's me.

A little history, I was in the Marine Corps Infantry, so I can say after I got out and went to culinary school, I hated the vast majority of whining peers and those younger than me. All that aside I've hated most of the Older Chef's I worked for. Most of them are either burnt out, on drugs, or bullshitted their way to their current position with little to no culinary knowledge and the line is ran by a tight crew of Hispanics who keep the shmuck employed.

I've worked for a Michelin Star Chef, served the president, it wasn't hard keeping me involved, I showed up 4 hours early, worked off the clock, asked a lot of questions, and helped develop dishes for the menu.

Look at UCHI, Look at NOMA. What do they do that's different, they reach out to the line, and co-create. Look at any good chef, he is not the soul creator of the food, he works with people and surrounds himself with eager people wiling to learn and create new things, to push the envelope. Thomas Keller said a great chef inspires others. How many chefs did you work for that truly inspired you?

As for moving around, I moved around plenty and accomplished way more (cooking under a Michelin Star Chef and for the President wouldn't have happened otherwise), and because of that combined with my personal research I am no longer a line cook. It's all about finding the right place, not sticking it out in forgive me, but a restaurant that is status quo stagnation level 9,000 burnt out steady paycheck land.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Honestly I don't think it is an age thing when it comes to work ethic but more of a personal thing and everyone is different no matter how old they are.  

I am of the 1960s born generation and there is a woman at work who was born the same year I was and we are so completely different it isn't funny.   I will do anything for anyone and management sees that and I have been trained to work in every department in the plant.   This other woman... is only willing to work in her department and makes it very obvious that she is unwilling to learn anything new.   Needless to say she gets sent home when her department is done their production for the day instead of going in and helping out somewhere else so she gets her full hours for the day.   She loves to go home early but come pay time she complains her pay is too small....   and this woman is in her late 40s!   She does her job description so management can't let her go...   We are  a big corporation so HR dictates what they can and can't fire someone over and well if we were a restaurant, she would have been long gone...

We have a group of summer help that were all born in the 1990s and out of the seven of them, six are amazing!  They work hard, do what is asked of them without giving attitude and when they are done in their department they always check to see if anyone else needs help before clocking out for the day.   One of them... not so great.... has a chip on his shoulder, complains the work is too hard even though he works in the lightest workload department in the plant, and just complains in general.  He still needs to be babysat and that drove me nuts last week when I was in that department for a few days filling in.  Every time I stopped the line for changeover of mixes he would just stand there and I would have to tell him to please pick up a broom and sweep up the floor while we changed over to the new mix.  Now and then he would do it on his own but for the most part, no I had to tell him.   It wouldn't have bothered me so much if it was his first week but he has been in that spot for almost three months so he should know the routine at this stage in the game.   

When I get frustrated with people like that guy  and that woman I wonder how much they hate working with me because I push them to keep up to me and my pace.

I wonder if it is not so much the person but how they are raised when it comes to their sense of entitlement and needing to be praised?

Just my two or more cents.....


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

In life.....you'll find that mix of people where some are hard working and care while others are just there to watch the clock and pick up a paycheck.

Many of us have been there before........we work hard, are diligent. 

We get the top raise at raise time.

It is nobody's business what we make yet people have no problem walking up to us and saying they got only .008% raise, and they think it's unfair.

When you watch them work, reality explains why..

(leeniek) You are correct in your assertion that age has nothing to do with work ethic

When I was the morning Sous Chef for a college food service, I had a pantry gal who was slow, unmotivated, and never on time.

Her hygiene was also in question.

With the employee handbook by my side and her signature on the last page, I had to document her daily routine, and  useit against her to get her canned...by the book....

I couldn't understand why she was allowed to stay there so long, and why I had to be the bad guy. 

I believe the employee handbook is the best way to aid an employee to get to know their job, but i find that very few places take the time to create one.

Corporations are usually the only ones that do.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

*Job vs. Career - What is a Job?*
While the terms "job" and "career" are often used to mean the same thing, they really are conceptually different.
If you work a part-time job in your youth in order to have extra spending money, it isn't likely you'd refer to it as a career. Why?
The reason is that a job is something you do without much concern for the long-term. You get a job to buy your first car, to have extra spending money, to learn about work, or to pay the bills.
When young people work part-time in retail sales jobs, they aren't thinking of it as a career.
The same goes for senior citizens who take on jobs after they've retired. It is simply work done in exchange for money. Jobs are important for people of all ages.
A job can put food on the family table. Some jobs even earn people high wages.

I think the key in hiring in this field is to have the insight to hire peoples that are career orientated.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

maximuscc2828 said:


> Hire better people. I'm great at reading people and would never allow the s#%t you described in my kitchen.


A wonderfull if naïve statement... There are very few Chefs who can hire their entire crew, many are "inherited" and in many cases the owners have final say in who gets hired--and at what payscale. Crazy, I know, must have something to do with them signing the paycheque.

Meh, like Mick & the boys sing, " You can't always get what you want, but you get what you need".....


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Like Aerosmith sings, many of theses people have *"Toys In The Attic"* and they usually like to take them out at work./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Foodpump I have a cellphone and it's location is in the cabinet in the dining room I think?   I got a pay as you go deal when we went to Chicago and the school wanted us to be in contact and I used it for a bit but then.... I keep forgetting it...  If someone needs to get ahold of me they have my email and home phone number and if I am really close to them they have my apple id and they can get me on messenger on my ipad....


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

@Chefross I didn't mention that one of those summer students is my daughter.... she is taking the paralegal course in school but at first thought she wanted to be a pasty chef. They LOVE her at work.... she works hard, does what they tell her and when she is done for the day and her shift isn't over she will come to my side of the plant and ask if chef has anything for her do to or can she go make boxes until the end of her shift.

I helped her get the job last year when she took the year off from school but I told her... I have no problem with helping her get a job but it is all on her to keep the job. And my boss and hers say that she does me proud as she is the same kind of worker as her mom...

Now they get her in whenever she has a school break

Her boss actually told me he would be in heaven if he could have her full time but he knows it is not in the cards...


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

Pasty Chef...hmmm.  Unusual occupation, but sounds interesting.  <[ : ^ )


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

sorry typing is not my thing...that should have read pastry chef


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## raibeaux (Dec 21, 2012)

I know, it was funny.


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## leeniek (Aug 21, 2009)

Her time is coming to an end... just a few more weeks and she is back at school.   Her boss did hire the one summer student who is not returning to school but he is on a hiring spree and he is hoping my daughter will be back at Christmas and she will if she cannot get a work placement for that time for her course at school


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## akat (Jun 9, 2015)

most of the chefs i know are pasty . actually all


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