# Sugar Art questions...



## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Hi. I'm new here and this is my first thread posted, so I just want to quickly introduce myself. My name is Mike Hartman (hence my user name) and reside in upstate, NY as a senior in high school seeking out college in culinary arts next year. 
Ok, my question is, lately I have been intrested in "Sugar Art" and "Chocolate Art." So I thought I would give it a try and see if it intrested in me other than becomming a Chef in Gourmet. How do I go about starting "Sugar Art" at home? What do I need (utensils, etc.)? 
I would really like to start this and see if it is something I would rather go in to a career as. If not, I would still like to go in to a gourmet career. Also, one last question; Is there anyone on ChafTalk.com from upstate, NY who owns or works in the Pastry business I could learn to do this with, rather than going in to it alone and messing up horribly :lol: .
Thanks in advance,
Mike Hartman


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Mike,
Welcome!
Cakerookie is starting out in sugar. Look for some of his posts. I think he is even starting a web site dedicated to this. Chrose is a wealth of info on the subject. There are many books on the subject. Supplies are readily available online. There are, I assume, enough schools or classes in NY to accomedate you. Also check out you local Chefs Association.
pan


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah do have a website but its off line right now need to do some more work to it don't like the way it looks. Oh and by the way, the only way to do sugar art is get in there and do it. So what if you mess up! You won't be the first one to screw up! Speaking from experience! If you hang around here long enough the one thing you will realize is that no one here ever gives up. So just get in there and do it. CH and Pan will help you a lot. They are great about sharing their knowledge of this art, listen, or should I say read everything they posts carefully. I am going to get a jump on CH here. Type in Ewald Notter. He is one of the best if not the best sugar artists in the world. He and his wife Susan run the School of Confectionary Arts in Orlando Florida. I know CH you still have not gotten over the Florida deal. We love ya anyway.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Start off with sugar work. Chocolate is more finicky and needs to be understood before you can start playing with it. Only thing to to is like cakerookie says, jump right and try it.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

This has nothing to do with this post just a vent! But how on the face of the earth do you make people understand that sugar is hygroscopic that it attracts moisture! I swear the next time I get ask if someone can add icing to a sugar piece I am going to scream! I tell them and tell them if they do that they need to wait till the last minute. Why? Because the moisture from the icing will melt the sugar! Is that so hard to understand? Or is it just me.


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Hi,
Thanks Panini!
Cakerookie, that's one thing even I know about frosting and sugar. :lol: .
I was looking around the posts before I posted yesterday, and I did not find anything on how to start/do sugar art. I've searched online under Google.com(c) and Yahoo.com(c) search engines for "Sugar Art" but found nothing relating to how to go about doing it. I've found books on competitions and other non-relating material. This was a last resort: !Apparently there's nothing online (that I found) on actually how to DO sugar art. I did check out the Notter School in Orlando, Florida yesterday, too, before I posted. I e-mailed them (Notter School) requesting more info about it, and I did get a quick response with the info I needed. (Thanks!) But (not to sound rude or ignorant or arrogant) my question does go unanswered. Yes, everything you mentioned was great, and I do thank-you, but I just have, still, no idea how to go about starting it. For example, how much sugar to H2O ratio, temperature, etc. 
Again, sorry if I sounded rude there. . I have no intentions of being rude here at all. 
And again, Thanks in advance.
Mike Hartman


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I'm at work so I'll answer a little more later. But just so's ya know Ewald and Susan got a divorce back in the late 90's so unless something has changed she is no longer involved with Ewalds school. Of course she was talented before she met Ewald and is amazing now!
Otherwise I'm not bitter about the move to Florida, I'm just surprised when you take the humidity into account.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Mike,
You're right. Give me a minute to get things rolling in the shop and I'll be back.
pan


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

OK,
some reading I had saved.
http://starchefs.com/c_and_h/html/tips.html
http://www.goodcooking.com/abtsugar.htm
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._20703,00.html
http://www.pastrychef.info/news.asp?Headline_ID=8


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Panini - Thanks alot! Those first two links were the best. (Though I did find some useful information in the others, I won't deny that.) But I do appreciate it ALOT. To be quite honest, that's the most info on the subject I've seen since my search for it.  . Thanks ALOT! And have fun at work! 

Thanks everyone,
Mike Hartman


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I think we need to break this question down a bit Mike. It sounds like what you mean by a “gourmet career” would be the hot side of things, savories and whatnot. Sugar and chocolate “art” would fall under the Pastry department’s side. That being said let’s make a couple of things clear. Chocolate and sugar as an art form is not a viable means of making a living. In other words, the demand for the items as pieces unto themselves is small. Sugar and chocolate as centerpieces is primarily for catered parties usually through hotels. Smaller caterers may offer it but the cost is usually prohibitive for the average party. That is not to say there isn’t a market for the items outside of a hotel, but I seriously doubt you could base a career on it, unless you have the talent of an Ewald Notter and can teach it. Even then Ewald started out working for Patisseries such as Lenotre and Sprungli in Switzerland.
You can learn the crafts and use them as supplements to your career if you choose the pastry side of life. What you may want to try to help you decide short of getting a job or specialized training is to do some cooking. Do a party for your family, a sit down gourmet meal, a super bowl party, etc. You know appetizers, meats, soups, veggies, etc. After doing that you can make some large batches of cookies to give away during the holidays, make several types of chocolate and other types of candies. Also make a few different cakes, and breads and pastries. All this can be done at home on the weekends. Decide which you find more fun to do. Remember too that when you are cooking something you like think of how much you may still like it when you have to scale it up to a 1000 units, or do it 50 times a night etc. This point being that good cooking is about repetition and the ability to produce consistently. This comes through experience, but it’s something to think about when trying to decide what direction to take.
So before thinking about “Art” think about starting simply. Art is more the icing on the cake than the whole cake itself.
Either way if you have questions, we have answers and are more than happy to offer up our 2¢ worth!


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Best thing to do is not look for it on line. This is stuff is like Egygtian embalming techniques they keep it a secret and you never know how they did it. GO to PastryWiz.com it has some things you will be interested in also. Visit Pastry Chef Consultancy and Information Service there is a great article there by Martin Chiffers I think will help you out also. If you get on E-Bay look for these two books they have complete chapters dedicated to sugar work.

The Advanced Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg
The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg

These are two excellent books, not just on sugar work but all types of pastry in general. These books are used as textbooks in some of the best culinary schools in the country. There is really no starting point per say. I will do my best to get my website back up that will help you too. My suggestion is read all you can when you can. Learn everything you can. I will re-post as soon as I get my site back on line.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Mike,
I too have a few questions on your directions. Chrose points out well your avenues. If you haven't researched the culinary profession carefully, then this is your first step.
There are many creative outlets in both sides of the kitchen. Sugar/chocolate work, Garde Manger (carving,decorating, and preparing cold foods) Ice Carving etc. The point, these are all a part of a bigger picture.
I think it's great to look into sugar but I think what Chrose is saying, the time for the fun stuff is usually only after achieving some sort of status in your chosen field. And then, the fun stuff is usually pressured and more of a production item.
Please do not take this negetively. I think you need to boil away! Just trying to give insight as Chrose.

Cakerookie, Tell me about the large lollipops I see with royal icing decorations on them? :crazy: 
PS Mike, People in pastry are a breed all their own." now I don't mean that in a bad way"


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

SEE! I didn't have questions after all


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

There isn't any. Just a rant don't pay me any attention. See ya. Oh, and there won't be any website. I cannot find a good one for free. So I guess the website idea is shot to h*********


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Sure there are. Let me ask the kid to see if he knows of any good free websites


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Thats alright I have stopped doing sugar work anyway. Just not any good at it. Y'all have a good one I am outta here.


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## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

How could you be after a month or so. It t'aint easy. Besides we can't all be good at everything, you want to see some real artwork, look up some Garde Manger work, or if you want to be amazed seek out Gabriel Paillaison for some amazing ice carving. There is also some incredible work going on in Europe (alright fine, here too) with things like Fondant and Massa Ticino etc.
Sugar is not the be all and end all. Art is in the eye of the beholder.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Some things do take practice. For someone with such enthusiasm, I'm surprised you've invested this much time, only to throw in the towel, cakerookie. But I do recall this happening a couple months back. Maybe you just need a push. You can learn, if you really want to, but you know that already.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

No what I need is a good swift kick in the pants. I have been a jerk!


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## villagecakelady (May 28, 2005)

Upper NY State? You must be able to go to NY City. Try doing some demo classes at FCI. Check out ICES in your area. Once you are addicted , there is no turning back.......


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

You're all right (correct). I meant by going into Sugar Art through the Pastry industry. (sorry). When I said Gourmet chef, I was referring to a national cuisine skill (like French cooking, Chinese, Italian, etc.) I was mainly curious about sugar art as just a hobby to do, but if I enjoyed it enough, I would go into the Pastry career, doing sugar art as a side project to work together w/my pastries. And if all else fails, my back-up plan would be the "Gourmet Chef" (as I described above). I'm not 100% sure on termonology for it, but that's the best I can describe it, making a bit of sense , like Sous Chef (still not sure what exactlly it means or what it is) and the other specific types of Chefs out there in the industry. So, I'm really sorry if I don't make some sense when I ask questions . You'll have to excuse my lack of termonology, still fairly new to the whole industry, but have a fond love of cooking. 
Ok, I think I summed up most of the problems...? If it's still not clear, sorry . Anything else...?
Art to me is what Chefs and Artists do. In other words, if a person smiles and says the like it / love it, it's art to me. I just LOVE making people happy when they bite in to food or sweets and tell me they love it. It's just something I can't live w/o. I LOVE IT! (Voted "Most Artistic" in High School this year. I'm a senior in H.S. right now,by the way.)

Sorry,
Mike Hartman

P.S. - VillageCakeLady - NYC is about 4-5 hours from me. I live about 30 minutes outside Syracuse (if I take the Thru-way). So getting to NYC would be about a 1/2 day trip. lol.
And I would LOVE to see a show, showing sugar art. It's just amazing!!

P.P.S. - Panini: a good free website I use (not sure if you will or not) is www.9k.com. But limited to a certain ammount of things to add. Check it out and see what you think.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Don't want to sound like I'm nagging or anything, but alot of us have worked long and hard to earn the title "Chef". It comes only after years of experience, and technically, only to those who operate or manage a kitchen and a brigade. 
Before you can walk, you have to crawl, and before you can become a "Chef", you have to become a cook. Seems to me the media in this continent have made the word "Cook" a dirty word. It's not, I am proud to call myslef a Cook. A sous-chef is the second in command. Again, someone with years of experience, for s/he must impart their knowledge to thier subordinates.

Don't spend too much on the sugar stuff right now. A decent pot, a good thermometer, a solid table ( that hot sugar poured on a thin s/s top will immediatly buckle and warp) maybe a Sil-pat. Once you're comfortable with pouring and casting, then go on to the next stages. Oh, and most important: When you do your sugar stuff, make sure you're comfortable and not stressed for time.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I agree with foodpump. You can tie a lot of money up in this stuff real quick and it don't come cheap. Most of it you can make yourself or get it at the local hardware store. Most chefs practice this as a hobby anyway because most commerical kitchens do not have areas set aside for this type of work. You will proably read that a copper pot is essential for boiling sugar. You can use a good stainless steel pot or even enamel ones.Copper is excellent for sugar work because of its even heat conduction but copper pots don't come cheap! A good 2 quart size stainless steel pot will work fine. The one most important piece of equipment you should invest in is a good candy thermometer! This is your most valuable piece of equipment in sugar work. Does any of this make sense? I am still working on the website let you know when I get it back up.


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Yes, most of it is making sense. I did buy a Candy Thermometer last night. And I also got 3 Plastic Cutting boards (it says it's capable of withstanding the cooling of baking goods on it.) So I got those. I also got the other things needed to at least go abouts doing / starting it. I do have a stainless steel pot with a copper bottom on it. Will that work ok? 
(And still waiting for your website! lol  )

Thanks again,
Mike Hartman


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah, your pot will work fine. If you are going to use those boards I would suggest oiling them lightly with vegetable oil first before you pour the hot sugar onto them. I am going to throw another wrench in the pile here. Do you have a metal spatula or dough cutter. The boards you have are fine. But I would suggest looking into getting some silpats or a marble slab. A large cookie sheet pan will work to I have used mine on numerous occassions. Might want to consider a cheap pair of rubber gloves too. Not going to do much in the way of protecting your hands from the heat but it might cut down on your blisters. Yeah, blisters! Part of the hazard of this type work and you will get a few.


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Get some sergical rubber golves, they come in a box of 100.
AND
Cotton under liner gloves, ie butler gloves. 
First put on the cotton and then the rubber.
If you have never done sugar, be extra careful with your hands and face.
I have seen professionals get nasty injuries from sugar.
Get to some hands on demos etc.
Best!
:bounce:


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Amen! And have a bowl or sink full of cold water handy in case there is an accident.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Well I finally found a webspace site. You can check it out. Note that the site is still under construction and I would like some tips from everyone on what I should add or take away. Thanks.

http://freewebs.com/dessertcarnival/

Oh, anyone with web experience. Should I post links on the first page or last page? Not sure where I should put them have several at least 3 already. I also have a [email protected]

http://www.mycookingblog.com/1-sugarcreations.php


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Yeah, I've heard of such injuries before as well. That was one of the first things I read about when I started looking in to this subject. I don't have any metal spatulas and no, I don't have any dough cutters. But I am capable of getting one either tomorrow or Saturday. And I was preparing on buying a pair of gloves for handleing the sugar,too (yet wasn't sure what kind of gloves until I got to the store and browsed around).


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Oh Boy.
where to start.
Foodpump, I used to feel exactly as you do. But as in most industries there have evolved specialist. The old addage of paying your dues in not in my vocabulary anymore. Since I have changed my attitude, I have been able to bring people along at quite a rapid pace. I agree, they should never call these schools, chef school, they are culinary schools.
Mike,
I think in some of those sites I saved and shot you there is a page of different levels of boiled sugar. I am going to suggest that you start with the basics. Boiling your sugar is the hard part. Boil some and experiment with the different stages and see if you can identify them. Then bring up some caramel, etc. Don't jump into boiling for pulling or blowing, you will set yourself up for dissapointment. Let the sugar teach you. The very nice thing about it, it is a very cheap medium.
This is going to sound quircky, but you must become one with your medium to be sucessful. Someone who is looking for a career who can blow sugar but can't make caramel is really useless to the operation.
Those, Just some thoughts.
If you let the sugar teach you most of your questions will be answered. I did the,take class thing before I learned about sugar. I dabbled from year to year getting by with producing nice pieces. But not till recently(thanks to CR) have I begun to really learn about sugar.
Does this make sense?
pan
I'm going to shoot you a pic of my office where we keep all our sugar and chocolate tools and offer it to you or any other student who wishes to travel to play. We are actually starting in January, in house, and will be doing it for a while. We have some local students and bakery persons alread interested, and doing as much research as possible.I have acquired a few very upscale restaurant accounts starting in 06 where I hope to adorn some of our pastries with sugar and chocolate.I also have some very moderate accomodations for one( but the food is great)


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Pan wrote:
Totally agree with Pan. Pulling and blowing may sound easy. But believe me its not. Like Pan said a while back Casting sugar to start is the best practice would'nt you agree Pan?

Hey Pan have you checked out the website. Let me know what you think. Its not done yet but its coming along. Would really like if you and CH took a look I respect you guys opinion a lot.


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Well I see you looked at the site Pan what do you think?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Actually not. In my long draw out previous post I mentioned I think it is important to learn about the sugar. To sum up, I always viewed sugar as an ingredient. Lately I have viewed it as a medium, like ice .I think the process will be speedy if you let the sugar teach you. I have done something with sugar each day for the last couple of months. Today I had some time and noticed a bag on the scaling bench with a little sugar in it that looked dirty. Not from the outside. So I grabbed the copper and boiled, simmered,rolled, just to see what the impurities did. I never new that if you take sugar from a steady boil to lower, some of the impurities sink and dissapear. I think these type of things are just as important in the learning step.
CR saw the website. I'll PM you. Nothing bad


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

News to me too, about the lowering of the temp, Panini.

Not that I've worked with sugar at all in the past 10 yrs., but good to know anyway!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

well, I'm letting the sugar teach me. There have been many times when I have slowed the process a bit, then skimmed. Times it would crystalize and not know why.


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## mike hartman (Nov 29, 2005)

Everything you all mentioned, I WILL be taking in to account. Valuable knowledge, most definately! Again, not to sound rude...  , there is another question I would like to ask...
How do I start and what is the process and temperatures I must go through. Could you give me a summary of what I have to do to go about doing this? Those articles mentioned earlier gave me a list of things I need, but it did not mention the process to going about doing it. Like, at what temperature should I take the pot of carmalizing sugar off the stove, etc. I just now need to know the process. (Sorry if it seems like I'm draggin this post out. Just a new guy learning something new.  )
Very much appreciated,
Mike Hartman

P.S. - I do understand what you what you are talking about when you said let the sugar teach me. I'm really looking forward to learning the many ways of sugar!


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Most recipes call for 295 to 305F for removal from the heat. Best too take it off a few degrees before it reaches temp because the hot sugar will continue to rise in temp after coming off the heat. Are you using isomalt,decomalt or granulated sugar? No reason just curious. After you remove it from the heat let the bubbles stop and plunge the pan into a bowl or sink full of cold water insuring that the water comes halfway up the sides of the pan and hold it there for 10 seconds. Now you are ready to pour and began turning the sugar for pulling or blowing.


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## tiny chef (Dec 4, 2005)

Mike-
I am glad you brought up this topic! I am experimenting with sugar as well and the info I've come across on the web hasn't been entirely conclusive. I thank cakerookie for trying to hook us up with some info. I started with taffy (what a workout!) and molds. I want to work my way up to pulled and blown sugar. I'm trying to research as much as possible before pulling any sugar but like I said info is hard to find. If anyone could help me with a few questions I have, it would be much appreciated!

*If I don't have access to a heat lamp what tempurature should my oven be at to keep sugar workable?
*This may be a stupid question, but are non-stick pans OK for boiling sugar?
*What is the best way to store candies and keep any moisture away?
*When skimming the foamy impurities off the top of my sugar what is a non-messy (if I can even say that about working with sugar) way to discard of foam?

I'm sure I'll think of more after I post. Thanks in advance for any help guys!

~Emily:smiles:

*And boy do sugar burns hurt!


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

You can use enamel pans or stainless steel both are cheaper than copper. I would be a little hesitant about using non-stick. Moisture is the number one killer of sugar pieces. You can use sodium chloride, silca gels or limerocks.Store it in an airtight container with a piece of wax paper between your sugar and the drying agent. As far as the impurity deal you can use a paper towel to skim the impurties then you can just throw the paper towel away. As far as your oven how low will it go? I don't know about this because I have always used a heat lamp. Maybe chrose will see this and be able to help you with that. If not pm him he will be able to give you some insight into that. As far as informational sources check out www.pastrywiz.com they have an article there on how to do a rose and blown sugar swan. Also Professional Pastry Services Consultancy there is an article by Martin Chiffers there that will help you a lot. I would refer you to my website but its down right now so its no help... Its like pan said in an earlier post let the sugar teach you.


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## tiny chef (Dec 4, 2005)

Thanks CR! 

I am still trying to get some materials which I'll get the rest of the gear with $ I get for Christmas I want to research a little more before I start on pulled sugar. I got myself a silpat w/ my last check and now I'm aching to pour something on it! After I went back and read some earlier threads on this subject I learned a lot more. I love this site! Thanks for answering my ?'s Cakerookie! I will definatly PM Chrose if he doesn't see this. If using my oven as a warmer becomes a hassle, then I may try to make my own heat lamp. Are the bulbs expensive? I would like a clear bulb. Again, thanks for all of your help!

~Emily


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## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

No, the clear bulbs are cheaper than the red ones. I got my clear bulb at Lowes for about $6.00 the red ones are about double that. You should make sure that your socket is rated for at least 600 watts before you go plugging in your lamp. I attached an in line dimmer switch on mine that allows me to control the heat a lot better. Just an old dimmer switch that you use on any regular light. Just make sure its rated for 600 watts which most are.


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## erik (Jan 23, 2006)

I've been playing around with sugar work lately myself. 
Thanks CR for the dimmer switch idea on the heat lamp. I never would have thought of that.

It's all about the little tricks :smiles: 

Erik


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

yea, he should have made a box with one on and patented it I just emailed a pic to him of our station "with dimmers":look: I don't know how the bought boxes are, but we have a large X cut in the top of ours to allow us to move the bubls anywhere in the box.
thanksCR


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