# Question



## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

What's up guys,

I have a question and wanted to get some opinions from you.  

I work as a chef at a small restaurant.  There are 3 chefs total.  When I am on shift it's just me and the head chef, covering during lunch and evening service.

I am responsible for larder, evening starters, pizzas, and deserts on my section.  So basically I make soups, chowder, pizza dough and pizzas of all kinds, and deserts such as cakes, brulee, cheesecake, etc.  It is my responsibility to make sure my section is under control with regards to everything being fresh and made to the specs that the head chef requires, and of course controlling stock levels and making sure we're on point with that.  There are probably about 30-40 items to take care of total on my section.

My question is:  what kind of chef would you consider me to be?  That is, what is my job title?  I'm leaving soon and need to update my resume and get my job title right.  

Thanks for your input.

Adam


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

chef de partie


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_"Chef with a JOB"_


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

What country do you live in? Chef de partie would be the high falootin name in the US.  Most would call the position 'line cook'.


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## cfood047 (Jul 18, 2016)

Don't down play the" line cook" you have a lot on your plate and expand your resume to show that you have versatility.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Phaedrus said:


> What country do you live in? Chef de partie would be the high falootin name in the US. Most would call the position 'line cook'.


LOL, I concur but seeing as how he is responsible for the larder, I assume that he isn't from "round heah". At least I didn't suggest entremetier or some other such term :~)


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

Ok, cheers guys.  I was assuming I was a Chef de Partie.  My boss is trying to tell me that I am a Commis Chef, but I he doesn't really know what he's talking about (new to the business).    I'm like mate, I f&%king never stop moving and am in charge of three different sections all day, I'm no bloody Commis Chef, haha.  Plus he puts me on the Schedule as a "Sous Chef", but pays me as a Commis Chef.  Weird eh?

Anyway Chef de Partie is what I'm putting on my resume, f&%k all the rest.

I live in England,in a place called Portsmouth.

Thanks for the second opinion!  

Adam


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

If you used language like that in my kitchen you would be an unemployed chef.


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

...


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

Jimyra said:


> If you used language like that in my kitchen you would be an unemployed chef.


haha...where do you work mate? the school cafeteria? lol


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

AdamBower998 said:


> haha...where do you work mate? the school cafeteria? lol


I don't where you work mate, but language that you wouldn't use in the dining room of a fine dining restaurant when talking to a guest, shouldn't be used here either. We all may know the words, but we don't have to use them. Using them merely shows a lack of creativity.


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## jay lancaster (Aug 26, 2016)

AdamBower998 said:


> haha...where do you work mate? the school cafeteria? lol


Says the line cook who wants a title.

.

It's a joke. Don't get your knickers in a wad.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

cheflayne said:


> I don't where you work mate, but language that you wouldn't use in the dining room of a fine dining restaurant when talking to a guest, shouldn't be used here either. We all may know the words, but we don't have to use them. Using them merely shows a lack of creativity.


Thank you chef. I work in Professional atmosphere with people who have a vocabulary that was not picked up in the boys room at school.


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

cheflayne said:


> I don't where you work mate, but language that you wouldn't use in the dining room of a fine dining restaurant when talking to a guest, shouldn't be used here either. We all may know the words, but we don't have to use them. Using them merely shows a lack of creativity.


Oops, I'm sorry if I offended you guys. I guess swearing is just part and parcel of my personality, developed as a side effect of hard work and determination. However I do understand that some people are sensitive to how others speak and get upset easily. I will be sure to remember that here in future.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Don't worry about it. A lot of people here get all pretty and polished sometimes and act like vocabulary choices are sacred.

_"We work in kitchens ...It ain'te rocket surgery."_


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Jimyra said:


> If you used language like that in my kitchen you would be an unemployed chef.


That's too bad because you would be missing out on a lot of great talent.


cheflayne said:


> I don't where you work mate, but language that you wouldn't use in the dining room of a fine dining restaurant when talking to a guest, shouldn't be used here either. We all may know the words, but we don't have to use them. Using them merely shows a lack of creativity.


I was just listening to NPR, not long ago-don't remember the show and they were discussing this very issue, and recent studies have pretty much dispelled the old myth that excessive use of foul language correlates to a lack of creativity or a lower intelligence. You can read more about it at this article from Scientific American:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-swearing-a-sign-of-a-limited-vocabulary/


Jimyra said:


> Thank you chef. I work in Professional atmosphere with people who have a vocabulary that was not picked up in the boys room at school.


Jimyra,

Some of the greatest chefs I know cuss up some the bluest streaks I've ever heard, some of them in multiple languages at once. I guess those weren't "professional" kitchens.


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

Yeah Pete is right.....I've worked with plenty of James beard award winners and nominees, most of them swore. Few don't swear at all. Doesn't make any of them better than each other. But the comments about the no swearing are laughable and overly pretentious.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Keep it consistent.  If you are in a French style brigade then you can be chef de partie, otherwise cook, or lead "larder" cook.  (what is that, pantry in America?)


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

It might be laughable and pretentious but one of the rules of the forum is posted below


> *Forum Rules*
> Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. By registering and using this site, you agree to the below terms of service.
> 
> ...
> ...


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

cheflayne said:


> It might be laughable and pretentious but one of the rules of the forum is posted below


I agree and have edited numerous posts in the past to change them to meet guidelines and I'm fine with that, but to equate the use of swear words with lack of creativity or as Jimyra does, and imply that "professionals" don't cuss like sailors, I find to be very disingenuous.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

The comment about lack of creativity was not be taken overly seriously. It was an attempt to inject a little jocularity and levity, obviously it failed. If I offended or put anyone off, I apologize.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_" ... disingenuous, jocularity, levity ..."_ 

... What in the _"Wide World of Sports"_ is a-going on here?


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

In answer to the original post, I would ask your boss what your title is. In your case, I don't see where a title is going to change much. It sounds like you've been getting some great experience so that is what you can outline on the resume. Your title is whatever the restaurant says it is. The experience is what will matter going forward.  Personally I find most title use to be meaningless. I've met too many Titles who can't seem to handle the actual work. 

    As for swearing.  Posting on the forum- no. As was noted, the forum rules prohibit it and I think the lack of it makes us focus on writing clearer, more legible posts. 

In real life however, if I didn't already know multiple  swear words I would be inventing them. For whatever reason, i cuss all the time without a second thought. Even taught my mom 

how to cuss like a sailor, much to my sister's surprise. I'm a college graduate and a voracious reader of many types of books but often a swear word or two says volumes. 

Come to think of it, I don't trust people who don't swear now and then.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

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This will be my last post on this thread on this subject. I think we are getting off the original question. This may be my fault so I will apologize for that. Also I would like to say that I do not mean to demean anyone or any kitchen I am just giving my view. We all want to elevate the profession, conditions, and pay.

Pete,

I respect your opinion and have quoted you often. Your articles are excellent and I look forward to reading them and trying out many of your suggestions. On this topic we disagree. This is my possibly laughable and overly pretentious opinion. I do use bad language some but I try to control where and when I do.

I may be "missing out on a lot of great talent" but there is a lot of great talent that share my views. I read the article on the web you referenced. I have included part of it in this post. The first two sentences sum it up.

_"That said, these results need to be taken with a grain of salt. Knowledge of taboo words and the regular __use __of those words are two very different things. I might very well have an encyclopedic knowledge of vulgarity, but I might also have the tact necessary to regulate my language in social situations. In other words, just because verbally fluent people have the ability to cuss with the best of them, does not mean that they will do so. This presents a bit of a problem with the current research since the authors do seem to want to make the claim that their results inform what kinds of people actually curse in the real world. This conclusion cannot be drawn from these data. The studies tell us nothing about how speakers __use__ taboo words, just what they would be __capable__ of saying if they chose to use them. Swearing regularly and being able to generate a long list of curse words when prompted are very different. Indeed, the POV hypothesis could still survive this criticism. It still might be true that those with greater verbal fluency, even though they also have greater taboo fluency, swear less because they have the lexical database required to actually express themselves in other ways"_

Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-swearing-a-sign-of-a-limited-vocabulary/

"Some of the greatest chefs I know cuss up some the bluest streaks I've ever heard, some of them in multiple languages at once. I guess those weren't "professional" kitchens." I wish I could speak multiple languages, which is a talent I struggle with. I will not say because of behavior a person is not a great chef or a professional kitchen. In my humble opinion, that is unprofessional behavior. Here is the ACF's description of professional behavior;

_"A professional's responsibility is four fold: to him or herself, to coworkers, to the business, and to the customer. Waste, recklessness, disregard for others, or abuse are unacceptable. Abusive language, harassment, ethnic slurs, and profanity do not have a place in the professional kitchen. Courtesy, respect, discipline, and teamwork build self-esteem, and pride."_

_Source: Culinary fundamentals/ American Culinary Federation, Culinary Institute of America. p 6_

Finally I would suggest that swearing and cussing can lead to lawsuits and sexual harassment in today's work environment. This post is much longer than most. I really like being part of this community and respect all. Now hello let's cook.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I've seen *plenty* of "chefs" be abusive, hostile and harass their cooks without ever using a single swear word....

Profanity is not at all needed in order to be unreasonably rude and abusive to employees.

I wish the "chef" calling me a name/swear word is the worst I've had to deal with... Being verbally abused all day long, without any swear words involved, is considerably worse..

You can be very successful without profanity in your vocabulary ... However, just because you don't swear does NOT mean you are not an abusive, hostile employer/chef. I know how to make somebody feel like a POS without any cussing; most people do... It does not take any skill.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I'm old enough to remember when profanity was an everyday part of kitchen vocabulary. Dives to Michelin star. I also witnessed a major decrease in the use ,with the proliferation of Women entering the kitchens and the open kitchen concept. I consider the change a positive one.

 To the OP, For the last decade or so when I've been asked this same question by someone who I value, I usually respond the same way.

I first tell them to write their resume with the title of their choice.

I than tell them to write one and omit a title completely, this eliminates a future employer from labeling you or taking for granted you are skilled enough to perform his or her interpretation of the title.

I tell them to list their accomplishments during their former employment. responsible and successful for ordering and receiving, etc.

  Then I suggest they compare and chose the one of there liking.

Personally, when I'm hiring, the titles go into one pile and the accomplishments go in another. I just feel there is so much gray area with titles now.

just me.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Not to mention, Executive Chef at the Marriot hotel in Alabama means slightly different than executive chef at The French Laundry....

This is why I never have minded calling my fellow cooks "chef" . I don't mind calling the dishwasher "chef" either; especially if they're prepping. Now I still call the person in charge chef , but I think in a kitchen it's just simply a sign of respect and can be used while talking to anyone working with food in the BOH.

While its 2016 and the whole world is
moving more and more towards "farm to fork" and organic food; let's not be ignorant, there are still PLENTY of hotels, banquet halls, and corporate kitchens serving pre-packaged, prepared food. Whether from cans or frozen packages.
There are also people running those kitchens who carry the titles "Chef"; or "Chef de partie" or "Executive Chef", etc . etc.

The title of chef means nothing today. 

It seriously reminds me of "I'm not a garbage man, I am a 'Refuse and Recyclable Collector" or "No, I'm not a waitress. My title is "Food Delivery Technician!"


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I respect this industry and the strive for perfection in it as much as anybody living today; however, I don't think those sincerely striving for perfection are interested in titles or how many people call them chef on a daily basis. The people who get excited over their title are lame and in all likelihood, uneducated.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

[quote

The title of chef means nothing today. 
[/quote]

Yup. But why?

Well firstly, you have the media, who can't bear to say the word "cook". Media can't acknowledge that ingredients are scaled out either, but thats another story.

Then you have culinary schools who won't use the word "cook"either, they call their students chefs regardless.

But for the rest of the world, particularily continental Europe, "chef"always meant, and still means "the boss".

Nothing to do with cooking, everything to do with administration. A kitchen needs an administrator, so that would be the chef. Now take for example my cousin who o/o an autobody shop outside of Zurich, both his employees and his customers refer him to as the chef. Open up a French newspaper and look at the editors, the head editor is the chef editor.

So go ahead an use the word improperly, just be aware of its meaning, and how many other countries use this word. After all, its not an american or even english word to begin with.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I don't know why the title of "cook" is still so looked down upon in society/media. But, I would love for that to change. Perhaps it's because the standards to become a "chef" are so incredibly lax in 2016.

In regards to professionalism, I truly believe tattoos have NO place in the restaurant business. Neither FOH nor BOH should have any tattoos, *especially* not any that are visible. It is not professional to have tattoos.

You say don't serve it if you wouldn't serve it to your mom; or don't say it if you wouldn't say it in front of your mom or guests in a fine dining room....
Does your mom have tattoos?? I don't think so. Mine sure doesn't.

Do you see tattoos in professional environments? No.
Does your local dentist or Doctor have tattoos? Probably not.
Do you see tattoos in politics? No. Do we elect Presidents with tattoos? No. So if we want respect, maybe we should start treating ourselves with respect and stop permanently inking our skin.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

image.png




__
rndmchef


__
Sep 6, 2016








Along with tattoos....WHY is this /\ something that is allowed in "professional" kitchens or restaurants? Neither FOH nor BOH should have facial hair like that but it's now quite common to see in restaurant staff...


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

rndmchef said:


> I don't know why the title of "cook" is still so looked down upon in society/media. But, I would love for that to change. Perhaps it's because the standards to become a "chef" are so incredibly lax in 2016.
> 
> In regards to professionalism, I truly believe tattoos have NO place in the restaurant business. Neither FOH nor BOH should have any tattoos, *especially* not any that are visible. It is not professional to have tattoos.
> 
> ...


Well, I think you're being a bit of a fascist, to be honest. Tattoos mean you're unprofessional? Come on now. This is 2016. I staged at a Michelin restaurant in Scotland and a lot of their guys had tattoos, and that was a 5 Star Hotel in Edinburgh.

Personally, when I go out I don't look down my nose at servers or anyone else for having tattoos. What matters is: was the server nice and friendly and was the food the dog's bollocks? If so then who cares about tattoos, IMHO.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

rndmchef said:


> I don't know why the title of "cook" is still so looked down upon in society/media. But, I would love for that to change. Perhaps it's because the standards to become a "chef" are so incredibly lax in 2016.


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## adambower998 (Sep 1, 2016)

rndmchef said:


> image.png
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think what you have to accept is that cooking is now considered, as it should be, an art form. It surely is a "Culinary Art". And alot of the motivation for people to get into cooking is that creative spark, the interest in taking it to a new level and doing something unique and different. Gone are the days of "stuck up their own ****" waiters and overpriced fancy horse dung. What people want now is quality food, interesting food, new flavors, exciting ideas. In order for this you need innovators, you need creators. And creators are not going to fit into your clean shaven, never look at a woman's ****, mind your "Ps and Qs" philosophy. If you want to ban beards and tattoos then you're waging war on probably two thirds of the Culinary industry.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Mdmchef

If you want to change the culinary scene, you have a lot of work ahead of you...

Your first Herculean task will be to geat some form of credential/qualification that is Gov't recognized for the "cook". Now the culinary schools have something to base their curriculm on. Once you have this, then you can design a credential for "chef", for bakers, butchers, and yes, for servers too. Most european countries have this qualification, and these countries have a hospitality scene that 
allows cooks to earn a livable wage, and servers the same--without the whole tipping issue.

Then you need to work on the media.....

Goid luck! Let us know how you fare...


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

CDP in England shorly. Although maybe speak to your head chef to avoid any confusion.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

AdamBower998 said:


> I think what you have to accept is that cooking is now considered, as it should be, an art form. It surely is a "Culinary Art". And alot of the motivation for people to get into cooking is that creative spark, the interest in taking it to a new level and doing something unique and different. Gone are the days of "stuck up their own ****" waiters and overpriced fancy horse dung. What people want now is quality food, interesting food, new flavors, exciting ideas. In order for this you need innovators, you need creators. And creators are not going to fit into your clean shaven, never look at a woman's ****, mind your "Ps and Qs" philosophy. If you want to ban beards and tattoos then you're waging war on probably two thirds of the Culinary industry.


Don't quite follow.....

If ink and a wandering eye makes a more creative cook, then a black beret and french ciggies will make me a better oil painting artist....

True creativity can only come from comfort and ease with ALL of the techniques, and great familiarity with All of the ingredients.
Let me illustrate:

If I don't know the importance of brines, I will never have the creativity of smoking my own meats

If I don't acknowledge that fats absorb flavours, I will never have the creativity of infusing real flavour into my dishes and baked goods

If I'm afraid of tempering chocolate and afraid of the sugar thermometer, I will never have full creativity in my desserts

If I don't know that a veg stock contains no gelatin, I will waste my time trying to reduce it to a "glace" ( innit that right, mdm?)

Ink and a wandering eye won't make you more creative, a better cook, or a faster one......


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Yes, it's "art", sure. ...

But, lets not forget we're serving people food.

Unlike other art... people put this art in their bodies so that they may become nourished. People usually don't arrive at restaurants full of food and water. Often times people may be famished. Not only is this "art" going to go into their mouth, through their digestion system and throughout their bodies....this is going to happen at a time when they are starving, their bodies are lacking nutrients and highly susceptible to damage.

Considering this , we should probably take this art form a little bit more serious than your local tuner shop who put "hella camber bro!!" on your Toyota Camry. 

We're not painting pictures, were serving people food that could get them seriously ill or even kill them if not served properly .


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_"We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."_


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I personally feel that people in the hospitality industry get inked as a unique form of decoration and expression. More than likely because the compensation for ones hard work and successes is sub-par, to say the least. That's all they can afford.

People with longevity and successes in other industries may choose their unique form of decoration and expression with Rolex's and Lamborghini's.

just sayin/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

rndmchef said:


> We're not painting pictures, were serving people food that could get them seriously ill or even kill them if not served properly .


And we can't do that if we are all inked up? Having a tattoo or facial hair somehow makes us less serious about the food we serve?


rndmchef said:


> You say don't serve it if you wouldn't serve it to your mom; or don't say it if you wouldn't say it in front of your mom or guests in a fine dining room....
> Does your mom have tattoos?? I don't think so.


My Mom doesn't have a tattoo but my daughter's Mom does (my wife) and I know many, many Moms that do. That is just an asinine, outdated point nowadays with tattoos being so commonplace.


rndmchef said:


> Do you see tattoos in professional environments? No.
> Does your local dentist or Doctor have tattoos? Probably not.


Another outdated point. I've seen doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc. with tattoos. Most of them wear their tattoos where they are covered by long sleeves and long pants but when in short sleeves and shorts they are fully exposed. It also seems to be generational with older professionals not sporting ink while younger ones showing off their pieces. Since chefs often wear short sleeves and/or chef jackets with the sleeves rolled up their ink is visible.


rndmchef said:


> Do you see tattoos in politics? No. Do we elect Presidents with tattoos? No. So if we want respect, maybe we should start treating ourselves with respect and stop permanently inking our skin.


Not often seen...yet, but seeing as many of our politicians are ex military there is a very good chance that they are sporting ink as the vast majority of veterans sport 1 or more tattoos. It won't be long before we see high ranking politicians proudly displaying their ink.


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

rndmchef said:


> I don't know why the title of "cook" is still so looked down upon in society/media. But, I would love for that to change. Perhaps it's because the standards to become a "chef" are so incredibly lax in 2016.
> 
> In regards to professionalism, I truly believe tattoos have NO place in the restaurant business. Neither FOH nor BOH should have any tattoos, *especially* not any that are visible. It is not professional to have tattoos.
> 
> ...


You really need to leave whatever planet you're on. Your way of thinking is dangerous especially to the industry and very narrow minded. My chef is tatted up everywhere and he was nominated for a James beard award. Is he not professional? **** outta here dude get a life. Some of the best chefs I've worked for have tattoos. That's what's great about our industry, we don't judge. You're mindset is trying to change that and it's inappropriate.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

youngchefkarl said:


> You really need to leave whatever planet you're on. Your way of thinking is dangerous especially to the industry and very narrow minded. My chef is tatted up everywhere and he was nominated for a James beard award. Is he not professional? **** outta here dude get a life. Some of the best chefs I've worked for have tattoos. That's what's great about our industry, we don't judge. You're mindset is trying to change that and it's inappropriate.


I wouldn't swear to it, but it seems as though you just judged.


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

rndmchef said:


> Yes, it's "art", sure. ...
> 
> But, lets not forget we're serving people food.
> 
> ...


I also have to add that this is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen....


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> I wouldn't swear to it, but it seems as though you just judged.


Yeah after reading that ridiculousness that was typed.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

youngchefkarl said:


> Yeah after reading that ridiculousness that was typed.


Would you say it is fair to say that you are pretty narrow minded when it comes to narrow minded people? :~) /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

"Do you see tattoos in politics, do we elect presidents with tattoos?"

(couldn't find the original pist from mdm to quotecthis from)

Who, in their sane and sober mind, would look at a politician as a role model?


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

cheflayne said:


> Would you say it is fair to say that you are pretty narrow minded when it comes to narrow minded people? :~) :lol:


No I would say that anyone who says that foolery about tattoos and not being professional has a narrow mind. Problem? That 1950's way of thinking doesn't fly anymore.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

And people seriously wonder why our generation is going down the toilet? People wonder why we expect everything we want; the older generation wonders why we are lazy sloths. ... And just FYI; I'm in my mid 20's, so I'm part of this generation....

A way of expression? Yea, so is murder and terrorist attacks; but I don't think those are good ideas either.

Have some self control.

A unique form of expression? I seriously hope that was a joke.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Write a book, create new recipes, start a restaurant, write a cookbook, think of how to create the "perfect" and most efficient line that a kitchen has ever seen, get in shape, modify your car to make it unique (or perhaps uniquely clean and tidy), get really good at a sport, start woodworking, paint, try ice sculptures and create any sculpture you can dream of... Etc etc. etc.

There are literally probably millions of ways to express yourself besides permanently inking your skin. God did not give you tattoos. God has also told us to treat our bodies like temples. . Having a tattoo is going against him.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I wouldn't fire someone for having tattoos or pass on an otherwise suitable candidate, but I personally don't have much interest in them. I have none nor can I think of anything I'm sure I'd want on my body forever. Personally when I see a bunch of tats I see it as a sign of someone who cares way too much what other people think of him or her. A very high "HEY LOOK AT ME!!!" factor seems to be in evidence. It seems to be a sign of conformity, too, a badge of the in-crowd that the tattoo owners is identifying with.

Paradoxically though I think tats on women are kind of hot./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Phaedrus said:


> I wouldn't fire someone for having tattoos or pass on an otherwise suitable candidate, but I personally don't have much interest in them. I have none nor can I think of anything I'm sure I'd want on my body forever. Personally when I see a bunch of tats I see it as a sign of someone who cares way too much what other people think of him or her. A very high "HEY LOOK AT ME!!!" factor seems to be in evidence. It seems to be a sign of conformity, too.....


Thank-you. This /\ to the nth degree!!
Took the words right out of my mouth .

That is one of my main problems with them... What problems do you have going on in your life that are so severe you are lacking self-confidence to the point of inking up your skin permanently to show "self-expression".

I have never said I would fire or not hire an otherwise qualified candidate for a job in my kitchen just because they have tattoos. Everybody is different. Everybody also makes mistakes; some people may have tattoos they regret completely. 
I'm still friends with a gentleman who burglarized my house while I was away on vacation; I was taught to always forgive. 
I was also taught that only the Creator himself can judge.

I've worked with a chef who had both arms completely covered with tattoos (sleeves I believe they're called).. Never once did I think about looking at him any differently or think of him as any less qualified than another chef. ... 
That being said ; we were not working together in a Michelin star restaurant, it was just a corporate chain. If I was the one hiring/firing staff at a Michelin star restaurant or a restaurant that I want to be formal, I would NOT hire a chef covered in tattoos. If he has one on his ankle that says something like "RIP GRANDMA KATHY" that I could never see if not told
about it , then fine, no problem . But , for a upscale restaurant that wants to strive for perfection, visible tattoos are not part of the equation.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

One thing I pride myself on is the fact that I'm in this industry by choice . I said "I want to be a chef and open restaurants!" when I was 9 or 10 years old . I had my first cookbook at 11. I did not fail other industries or be a troublemaker in school who wanted to do the opposite of their parents. I didn't go and get a bunch of tattoos in my early days and then years down the road realize "I need a job , hey, cooking seems easy enough. Let's go work at a restaurant!" 

I've always had this dream and have always considered what I need to do to achieve it. I take this industry seriously and would hope MOST people in this industry for the same reason....


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

rndmchef said:


> Write a book, create new recipes, start a restaurant, write a cookbook, think of how to create the "perfect" and most efficient line that a kitchen has ever seen, get in shape, modify your car to make it unique (or perhaps uniquely clean and tidy), get really good at a sport, start woodworking, paint, try ice sculptures and create any sculpture you can dream of... Etc etc. etc.
> 
> There are literally probably millions of ways to express yourself besides permanently inking your skin. God did not give you tattoos. God has also told us to treat our bodies like temples. . Having a tattoo is going against him.


Now you're bringing god into this? Not everyone believes in that so put that argument away, that's not logical. I've never met anyone in their mid 20's feel that way about tattoos, which is pretty sad. You're in the strong minority for good reason. Never judge somebody just because they have tattoos. Not hiring someone because of that is discriminatory and insane. You will never move up the chain of command in a GOOD restaurant with that narrow minded and outdated attitude. Maybe in a little corporate setup, but not in the real world where it's 2016 and people are thinking clearly and not discriminating.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hold on there Karl....

Both of my kids are in their 20's and don't like ink, coincidentally their partners don't have ink either.

Not hiring because of visible ink is not descriminatory, if my customers are uncomfortable with it, then I will reflect that preference. Not hiring becausebof race, religion, etc. is illegal, but ink? No.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_WOW. Just freakin' WOW._

I'll say it again ...
_"We work in kitchens ... It ain'te rocket surgery."_​


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## chefboyog (Oct 23, 2013)

I cant believe I read all that! LoLs. Been a while.

Whats up Chefchat!

Im too cheap to spend money on tats but who cares anyway. Keep it up guys ( secretly prays the kids will keepworking when he leaves)! Good debate I think. 

What was the question though?

Carry on. ( leaves the room puzzled)

Kids these days.


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## chefsing (Dec 19, 2015)

This seems to be getting hot in here, but I just wanted to throw an actual fact out- Teddy Roosevelt had a tattoo.  And it is not judgmental or narrow minded to say he was one of the greatest Presidents in American history.  And many other Presidents are rumored to have tattoos (although mostly circling military) but he is the only confirmed one.  IMHO his tattoo has zero effect on his professionalism, craft or integrity.


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## cfood047 (Jul 18, 2016)

most chefs are artistic and cultured ...we try to reinvent our selves on a regular basis..we express ourselves in different ways...don't judge....make great food


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## youngchefkarl (Dec 12, 2013)

foodpump said:


> Hold on there Karl....
> 
> Both of my kids are in their 20's and don't like ink, coincidentally their partners don't have ink either.
> 
> Not hiring because of visible ink is not descriminatory, if my customers are uncomfortable with it, then I will reflect that preference. Not hiring becausebof race, religion, etc. is illegal, but ink? No.


I find that very disturbing that a customer would find tattoos "uncomfortable". That's simply ridiculous and one of the problems with the world, being judgemental. I see your argument somewhat because you have your own business, but considering a great amount of talented chefs are tatted up I don't see why there is even a debate on this. There's nothing wrong with your kids not having ink, I don't even have any myself either. But to not hire someone in a fine dining kitchen because of that is something of a fantasy tale. They care if you can cook, not what's on your skin.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

rndmchef said:


> A way of expression? Yea, so is murder and terrorist attacks; but I don't think those are good ideas either.


I actually had so much to say, but after re-reading your posts about God (BTW which god considering that there are still hundreds being worshipped on this planet) and the fact that you seriously just compared being tattooed, as a form of expression, to murder and terrorism, I can only assume that you are either:

1. Trolling this forum

2. completely off your rocker

Either way, I can't continue with this conversation, with you, any longer.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

Karl,

You need to be careful with that word discriminatory.  Not hiring someone because they have tattoos is not, in the legal sense discriminatory as it does not fall under 1 of the "protected" categories.  As an owner of a business where our employees interact with our customers every day we often make hiring decisions either consciously or subconsciously based on looks.  Hippest, newest night club-I bet the hostess won't be a heavy set 40 year old woman, new, trendy ramen place-good bet most servers will have full sleeve tattoos, new French fine dining place-probably no facial piercings on the waitstaff.  I am not making judgments about those decisions merely pointing out that those are perfectly legal hiring decisions that can be made by the owners.

Do I wholeheartedly disagree with the stance that some have taken of tattoos?  Yes I do, but they have a right, as owners, or decision makers to decide not to hire someone based on the fact that they have visible tattoos that can't be covered up.  Personally, I find such decisions to be shortsighted but that is me and I am not running their kitchens.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

Theres an established fast food chain here that refuses to hire anyone with any facial hair whatsoever, including neatly trimmed mustaches. They've been steadfast on this for decades--if it were legally discriminatory, they would have been called out on it years ago.

My eldest daughter has tats....(and maybe I shouldnt even dare broach the subject of body piercings!). Not because shes rebellious, or has an identity crisis, or is making a statement to the world. But because theyre pretty, and she likes them. My other 3 by-products have no tats. 
My wife wants one, if i gifted her one someday she'd be ecstatic. Personally, i have no tatooial appetites. Neither do I desire piercings--I like
my pain receptors just the way they are-- unstimulated. 
Which has nothing to do with my reactions to deco-people. However, I cant say I wont react a bit to content....if i see someone with a swastika proudly displayed on their arm i might have a personal problem with that, regardless of their right to self expression.

*scrolls back to page one*
Oh yeah.....
Last job position/title:
--Line Cook. 
--Duties/ responsibilities/ accomplishments, see long list below:
(The list will speak for itself, use addtional sheets as needed!!)


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

[quote name="youngchefkarl" url="/t/90334/question/30#post_545279... and one of the problems with the world, being judgemental. [/quote]

Yeah, I know, but... People ARE judgemental.

Heck, I judge when its time to toss out my toothbrush, I judge its not safe to cross the street when I can't make eye contact with the lady in the Prius who is staring at her crotch, both hands texting away. I judge the customer who wants to order a special order cake but refuses to put a deposit down, a scammer and a waste of my time.

People judge.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

rndmchef said:


> And people seriously wonder why our generation is going down the toilet? People wonder why we expect everything we want; the older generation wonders why we are lazy sloths. ... And just FYI; I'm in my mid 20's, so I'm part of this generation....
> 
> A way of expression? Yea, so is murder and terrorist attacks; but I don't think those are good ideas either.
> 
> ...


Hey youngster, if it's not expression than you give it a name Mr. know-it-all. Choosing what pants your going to wear is expression. I'm sorry diapers.

If you don't have an understanding why some people choose ink. than don't express your opinion like you do. You don't have a clue.

I got my first ink by moon light with a medics needle and pen ink. I was sitting in a tree with a brother trying to get some sleep. Then there was that paralyzing silence. I still have half a dog tag on my forearm that I always cover. Even in the summer I wear a stretch band over it. That's how I *EXPRESS* it! I still wear his dog tags.

*That seriously is not a joke*.* SELF CONTROL* !! You'll never know. Try holding it together while someone slides off the limb beside you. Wake Up! little man.

I may not ever intentionally look at that ink, but it's the most important thing I own.


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## fablesable (Oct 11, 2014)

Heya @panini try not to let the small minds in life get under your skin. It will ruin the tattoo.....lol!!

As a woman, with a lot of tattoos that are visible, and in the older crowd........I have to laugh at where this thread has taken us with the tattoo thing. I was subjected to HIGHLY judgemental attitudes when I was younger with my tattoos. People used to judge me as lesser than not only because I was a woman but because I had ink on my body (still surprised I wasn't thrown in the travelling circus alongside the wolfman lol). It was MY SELF EXPRESSION however, in that time in history, not a very accepted form of expression. Now in my later years I have to hear this crap again only in the opposite vein as to everyone with tattoos are not expressing themselves but just going with the crowd and fad of it all. OY!!!

Although I might agree that there have been a very few amount of people that have passed through my life that regretted getting the ink they did (usually in the younger crowd although not all young) it is still a form of self expression like all art. As well as the beard and moustache trend that is going around today. As much as I may not like the look of the newest trend, that is a personal opinion and is wisely kept to myself.

All that being said, I agree with @Pete post where you hire according to your personal business standards (tattoo and facial hair, or no). It is highly discriminate however that does not make it discriminatory against you as a person.

@foodpump has said, all people are judgemental, that is the human condition to which we live. How we express that judgement, that is on us as an individual (Leave the God's out of it!)

@AdamBower998 Chef De Partie will do nicely for the UK on your CV. List your accomplishments and duties alongside and that will do nicely for the next employer. Good luck mate! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It's funny ... the Military crowd that I'm familiar with has the junkiest tatts. They're all nice pics, proudly displayed in classic military fashion, but generally uninteresting because they are standard regular. The hot chick babe crowd, that I so wish I was more familiar with, has the best looking multi-colored makes-me-wanna-look tatts. Everyone, every day of their lives, makes some kinda statement about their appearance, whether they know it or whether they admit it. We wear clothes that we like. We comb our hair. We try and look as best as we can. I don't see tatts any differently than a person's hair style, clothing choice or even how their ties match their shirts. Some people do go overboard with the placement and amounts, but that is just like any other fashion. You've never been with a person who overdid their perfume or cologne? I generally have NO problem with tatts ... as long as they're good and not related to gang-type stuff ... and you don't become _"The Illustrated Person"_. I can't at all see tatts effecting work performance. Sorry *foodpump*, the only judgement I'm concerned with is about the quality of what I serve. For the grace of God, I've never had to worry about anyone's opinion of my wait-staff.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

No problems, Ice man.

If you notice, I say judge, not pre-judge, or rely on stereo types.  I look for responses or actions before I make my judgement, and I base my judgement on these actions, or lack of them.

  So for the lady in the Prius, I had no pre-concieved judgement of her until I couldn't make eye contact with her. Then I judged it was probably a good idea to let her finish her (deleted ) text while she was idling at a light before I crossed the street..


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

That's the rub suppose- you're free to get tats if you want but you're self selecting yourself out of certain jobs and even entire fields by doing it. Customers will judge my restaurant as much by the way the servers look as by the food. Where I'm at especially older folks look down on tats, and they have the money. It's a lot easier to change your clothes of facial hair than a tattoo.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Phaedrus ... That is so very interesting to me. My three(3) best groups of clients, all very different demographically, don't give a rat's tail bit of difference about appearance such as tatts compared to uncleanliness and or sloppiness. All they care for, and come specifically to me for, is what is on the plate and the pairing I give them in the glass. Because I do most of my work privately, it's not in a standard restaurant atmosphere. My waitstaff, or crew as I call them, are almost always different every job. Each and every one of them is a _"free agent"_ for every job.


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

What I find funny, is that I find that, at least in the finer dining places, that customers seem to have a double standard. They want their servers pretty clean cut and conservative, but they don't mind their chefs with full sleeve tattoos. Neck and facial tattoos still seem to make customers somewhat uneasy in finer dining places though, although that does seem to slowly be changing with the rise of the more casual eateries that are doing "serious" food. These statements are not judgments, merely observations.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Pete said:


> What I find funny, is that I find that, at least in the finer dining places, that customers seem to have a double standard. They want their servers pretty clean cut and conservative, but they don't mind their chefs with full sleeve tattoos.....


Meh. Not really when you think about it. These are the same customers who have special requests and 14 modifiers on the dish, tip the server 15-20% of the entire dining experience, and then tell the server to tell the "boys in the back" that the meal was wonderful.......


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

It's not everyone, Iceman. We have a good mix of customers but some of the older folks here are kind of stick-in-the-mud types. It's Minnesota!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## cronker (Mar 3, 2016)

Well, this won't end well.
This is a great site, run by and for the professionals in the industry to develop and discuss ideas and share stories. It is also a privately owned forum, which means we play by the house rules. It's not about freedom of speech, it's about following the rules that the site owners have decided to impose. Don't like it? Fine, you are under no obligation to stay.
Go try your luck on an unmoderated forum, and report back to us how that goes for you.

By the way, you're a CDP.

ETA: from the yellow section directly above 

Note that even though this is a pro forum, kitchen language is highly discouraged and will result in an infraction or your total removal from cheftalk. Treat fellow professionals with respect as we all pursue our passion.


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## ljokjel (Jul 1, 2009)

To be honest, the vibes I get from religion are worse than the ones from tattoos. I can respect any man's opinion, but it gets more problematic when the reason for this opinion is the good old book, instead of simple common sense, or just because "I think so". But again I'm just a European heathen, and not from the USA. I understand you've got a different thing going on when it comes to society and religion, and that's fine. I can get with that...

That being said, the word is constantly changing, and so is its views on tattoos and the culinary scene. Get with it or fight it. Whatever you choose, you won't be able to change it.

And about that title. CDP/ chef de partie mean nothing more than responsible for section. In a three man kitchen, what is the third guys title? Sous? Demi chef de partie? Commis? CDP as well? Apprenti? Cuisiner de partie? Saucier? Cuisiner? Or do you just switch around depending on the days choice of socks?


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## jakeholyhead (Mar 30, 2016)

I wouldn't say you're a chef de partie just on the information you've given, what responsibilities have you got in the kitchen other than cooking? Unless you've got proper responsibilities then i wouldn't call you a CDP.


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