# Alfredo Sauce: Bechamel or no?



## masseurchef (Sep 9, 2016)

Hi, I learned to make Alfredo sauce by sauteeing garlic in butter, then adding cream, and finally hitting it with parm, but I see recipes that are bechamel-based. I'm wondering about reasons for the different approaches, is the bechamel-based sauce a bit lighter perhaps? I've never had too much trouble with the butter+cream+parm method, but is the bechamel perhaps a bit easier to work with in that it provides the consistency?


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Over the years I have used many methods most Chefs wouldn't agree with. In all cases it had to do with the selling price of the meal. In some low cost operations when the employee meals were $5 the Alfredo was made as a Béchamel made with non-dairy creamer and some chicken base for a Blackened chicken Alfredo linguine. I'm not saying we won any awards with the Alfredo sauce but for $5 it did the job. That being said when I had an opportunity to charge more the quality also increased using cream for a richer tasting sauce.........ChefBillyB


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## masseurchef (Sep 9, 2016)

chefbillyb said:


> Over the years I have used many methods most Chefs wouldn't agree with. In all cases it had to do with the selling price of the meal. In some low cost operations when the employee meals were $5 the Alfredo was made as a Béchamel made with non-dairy creamer and some chicken base for a Blackened chicken Alfredo linguine. I'm not saying we won any awards with the Alfredo sauce but for $5 it did the job. That being said when I had an opportunity to charge more the quality also increased using cream for a richer tasting sauce.........ChefBillyB


I was not thinking in terms of food cost, but of course, why not make a cheaper bechamel-based sauce and then finish it with a bit of cream perhaps. I love the chicken stock+non dairy creamer bechamel idea for a staff meal! I'm all about creative uses of humble and low cost ingredients.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

The first thing my Son points out to be is, he now works for people who could afford to buy cream. When he worked for me we used the 2lb bags of non-dairy creamer for clam Chowder and all of our cream soups. We always use good bases for our gravies, soups and sauces. The Béchamel was or could be used for country gravy. The food cost was one factor also having a multi-use item on hand was useful. We also used a lot of coffee creamer for our coffee service..Go figure.....Like I said some people won't agree with doing it that way. It worked for me and thats what counts......ChefBillyB


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## sgsvirgil (Mar 1, 2017)

Here's a good article about Alfredo that is pretty spot on and gives good insight into the difference between Italian food and Italian American food.

http://www.culturediscovery.com/tus...acation-blog/culture/alfredo-sauce-americans/

When preparing the dish in large volumes, the bechamel approach is ok only if the sauce is made to order and there's no holding time involved. Otherwise, the sauce generally breaks after a short while and you're left with white garbage with a layer of fat floating on top.

Specifically, if the roux is made properly, the sauce shouldn't break, right?. But, because parm cheese, especially aged parm, has less moisture, it tends to break because of the lower moisture content regardless of how well your roux is made.

Good luck.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

In Switzerland, cooks talk about the “ lead balloon”— food so rich it feels like you’ve swallowed a lead balloon and the waiter has to roll you out the door after you’ve paid up.

Reduced cream and aged Parm is nice, but very rich, especially when you combine it with a starch like pasta. A bechemel is a nice compromise, especially if you finish it off ala minute with cream.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

As I get older I go lighter and lighter with my Alfredo. Now it's half the portion I used to eat, half the butter, better cheese, and a small splash of cream. Very small.


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## ChefRossy (Oct 21, 2018)

I have to agree with Kuan, a bechamel with cheese (typically called a Morney) is heavier and will take longer to create. Stick with the basic cream, parm, and butter and you won't go wrong.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

How so heavier? 
Milk is what, 2% or even 3.5% butterfat, vs. Whipping cream @ 33-36% butterfat, and cheese with over 40%butterfat. 

How can you say bechemel is heavier?


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## masseurchef (Sep 9, 2016)

foodpump said:


> How so heavier?
> Milk is what, 2% or even 3.5% butterfat, vs. Whipping cream @ 33-36% butterfat, and cheese with over 40%butterfat.
> 
> How can you say bechemel is heavier?


I think @ChefRossy is referring to the mornay sauce, which one could say is "heavier", but that is because in addition to parm, you would typically be adding gruyere or some other cheese(s). I actually made one last night with bechamel and bits of manchego, parm and poutine curds, as well as some blue cheese chunks on top. And a splash of cream. I guess not the healthiest dish, but I will die happy


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## ChefRossy (Oct 21, 2018)

Thanks masseurchef, yes, I was refering to a morney sauce which can get quite thick and heavy. Sorry for not clarifying.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

True Alfredo sauce is butter, parm, and a little pasta water.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

masseurchef said:


> Hi, I learned to make Alfredo sauce by sauteeing garlic in butter, then adding cream, and finally hitting it with parm, but I see recipes that are bechamel-based. I'm wondering about reasons for the different approaches, is the bechamel-based sauce a bit lighter perhaps? I've never had too much trouble with the butter+cream+parm method, but is the bechamel perhaps a bit easier to work with in that it provides the consistency?


As you'll find out there are a million ways to do everything when it comes to cooking and no one is really "right" one way or the other generally speaking but maybe the recipe you saw was referring to bechamel because it is considered a mother sauce and sauces like alfredo would be a derivative from that.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Eh..no. A true Alfredo is reduced cream; no roux, no milk, therefore not a derivative of a mother sauce like Bechemel.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I'm just stating that the original recipe the OP posted may have used Bechamel as a starting point since it's fairly well known and easy to make. Adding some ingredients to the bechamel would transform it into something very similar to an alfredo you may see now a days.



foodpump said:


> Eh..no. A true Alfredo is reduced cream; no roux, no milk, therefore not a derivative of a mother sauce like Bechemel.


It's not entirely fair to discount any of the ingredients listed above being added to a form of alfredo sauce, especially if you want to argue the ingredients of a true alfredo which is reported to be just pasta, butter and parmesan.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

LOL. Butter is the creme de la creme.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I’m not discounting any ingredients. The whole concept of a mother sauce is to make that sauce, and then make “ babies” from it. Ie. a bechemel, then add cheese to it, or tomato,etc.

As many on this site will inform you, an Alfredo is ONLY reduced cream, butter, and Parm. So, as I stated above, an Alfredo is not a deritive of a Bechemel, it’s just an Alfredo, nothing else.

Of course, in your kitchen you can cook and label things any way you want. However, if you want to use classical descriptors and classical labeling systems,( ie “ mother sauces”, “Béchamel”) you gotta stick with that system—just like you can’t go telling your staff that today is “Grunsday” because you think grunsday is appropriate and makes sense.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

The jest of this discussion is that if a client wants Alfredo sauce, no matter how you choose to make it, the end product must be able to survive many obstacles (travel, sitting, and service). This is the reason for the many ways to make it. Some are tasty and some are gross. As Chefs we can only offer our opinion unless we own the place.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> I'm not discounting any ingredients. The whole concept of a mother sauce is to make that sauce, and then make " babies" from it. Ie. a bechemel, then add cheese to it, or tomato,etc.
> 
> As many on this site will inform you, an Alfredo is ONLY reduced cream, butter, and Parm. So, as I stated above, an Alfredo is not a deritive of a Bechemel, it's just an Alfredo, nothing else.
> 
> Of course, in your kitchen you can cook and label things any way you want. However, if you want to use classical descriptors and classical labeling systems,( ie " mother sauces", "Béchamel") you gotta stick with that system-just like you can't go telling your staff that today is "Grunsday" because you think grunsday is appropriate and makes sense.


Sorry that's a false argument. You can't argue that a bechamel base can't be made into a alfredo because of the ingredients at the same time as arguing that an alfredo sauce if only specific ingredients when the ingredients you list aren't even the ones from the original recipe. Like I said before there are a million ways to make things but to argue that somehow adding a roux or thickener to an alfredo type sauce automatically makes it not one is just silly. People have been adapting cooking techniques and recipes for years and it does nothing for the industry to be so black and white with something as silly as an ingredients.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

That’s not the point I’m making at all. Cooking is highly flexible, and as long as it works, it works.

That said, an Alfredo is made with just cream, parm, and butter. A very good pasta sauce can be made with a bechemel refined with cream and parm. And I do this frequently, especially for catering. But this isn’t an Alfredo, you can call it what you like, an Alfredo-type sauce, for instance, or “Grunsday sauce” even.

The point I’m making is, what you call it makes a huge difference. Here’s another example: Hollandaise. Everyone knows holly is made with yolks, reduction, and butter. HOW it’s made is a different story. Yet I have made “ hollandaise” from a package, adding milk, or something else to a powder. And for a lot of catering applications this works well, particularly for long holding periods. Now, I can’t honestly call this stuff “Hollandaise”, and I’m guessing neither would you. 

Here’s another point: I once worked for a guy who insisted on calling bought-in pastries “house made”. Pastries were good quality, but they had a very distinctive look to them that could only come from a production bakery, and were easily identifiable as such. O.k., kinda harmless, even though you could call him a freakin eejit, and laugh in his face. Then there was the guy who would purposely sub pork for veal in his schnitzels that he sold at a premium price.”They’ll never know the difference”, he used to say. O.k., this guy is knowingly cheating, a pork schnitzel is not a veal schnitzel.

So, yeah, I take names pretty seriously, if you’re going to sell an Alfredo, it should be made with just cream, parm, and butter. No one says you can’t sell a pasta with creamy bechemel, ( and I have, many, many times), but you can’t call it “Alfredo”.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> That's not the point I'm making at all. Cooking is highly flexible, and as long as it works, it works.
> 
> That said, an Alfredo is made with just cream, parm, and butter. A very good pasta sauce can be made with a bechemel refined with cream and parm. And I do this frequently, especially for catering. But this isn't an Alfredo, you can call it what you like, an Alfredo-type sauce, for instance, or "Grunsday sauce" even.
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from and I'd like to try and separate the topic and the examples you gave. I agree, as I'm sure a lot of chefs do that calling something like a protein one thing when it is another or marketing your products as made one way when they are not is dishonest and in some areas violations of truth in menus laws. That being said the issue at hand is not that the OP is completely using substituted products to make an alfredo sauce. He was simply wondering why some recipes would call for a bechamel base, which in fact contains most of the essential ingredients of said alfredo in one form or another. Simply adding an ingredients like a seasoning or in the case you made, flour, it is not unreasonable to still be classified or labeled if you will as an alfredo sauce. Adding a thickener is not a fair comparison to passing off manufactured pastries as home made or substituting pork for veal. It's understandable that you have your standards when it comes to ingredients for a recipes but even those are so vaguely defined. Would you consider a sauce made with milk instead of cream an alfredo? What about grated parmesan versus shredded? Does the cheese have to be aged? Using one of these things over the other does not instantaneously make it not an alfredo.

Also the context matters. In a perfect world maybe everyone could make pasta alfredo from scratch with premium ingredients to order. But is settings where you may have to bulk prep something you are probably going to thicken it. Maybe there are some chefs out there that do this but I have never seen a chef make gallons of sauce by just reducing the cream. It would be both time consuming and unnecessarily costly. If that is how you do it in applications than I am happy that you are in a position to do such cooking but for a lot of restaurants that would be serving something like a pasta alfredo to begin with on a regular basis this may not be appropriate.

Again I don't claim to have all the answers but I would think that to say something can never be labeled something else because of a simple ingredient addition or subtraction is a little stubborn.


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## masseurchef (Sep 9, 2016)

I find Wikipedia actually to be quite helpful in this case:

"*Fettuccine Alfredo* (Italian pronunciation: [fettut'tʃiːne alˈfreːdo])[1] or *fettuccine al burro*[2] is a pasta dish made from fettuccine tossed with Parmesan cheese and butter.[3][4][5] As the cheese melts, it emulsifies the liquids to form a smooth and rich sauce coating the pasta.[3] In other words, it is a version of pasta with butter and Parmesan cheese (Italian: _pasta al burro e parmigiano_). Alfredo di Lelio gave it this name at his restaurants in Rome, in the early to mid 20th century, where the "ceremony" of preparing it tableside was an integral part of the dish.[3][6]

The dish became popularized and eventually spread to the United States. The recipe has evolved and its commercialized version is now ubiquitous with heavy cream and other ingredients. In the US, it is often garnished with chicken or other ingredients to make it into a main course. In Italy, _fettuccine al burro_ is generally considered home cooking; fettuccine Alfredo is a very rich version.[6]"

So, it could be argued that neither cream nor bechamel-based sauces are in fact "true" Alfredo, since the original dish referred to pasta tossed with parm and butter. I think the popular, North American usage of "Alfredo" would just refer to a garlic cream sauce, so that would allow bechamel and etc etc.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

[QUOTE="Seoul Food, post: 590722, member: 92191

Again I don't claim to have all the answers but I would think that to say something can never be labeled something else because of a simple ingredient addition or subtraction is a little stubborn.[/QUOTE]

Let's agree on this:

If you're going to sell a portion of Fett. Alfredo for $15.00 and up, it should be a cream reduction. If you're going to sell it from $4.99-$12.99, anything goes.

There's a big difference-both in terms of ingredient cost, and terms of calories between reduced 33% cream, and roux thickened 2% milk.


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## fatcook (Apr 25, 2017)

I have to disagree Foodpump - our Alfredo does not have cream in it, it is the traditional butter and parm only. It seems like adding cream belongs in the anything goes category. 

I have to wonder why people do the more complicated versions when the original is so simple. Other than buffet type settings that is.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

fatcook said:


> I have to disagree Foodpump - our Alfredo does not have cream in it, it is the traditional butter and parm only. It seems like adding cream belongs in the anything goes category.
> 
> I have to wonder why people do the more complicated versions when the original is so simple. Other than buffet type settings that is.


If you can afford it I say...why not, but as it has been stated before, price is the factor.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

foodpump said:


> [QUOTE="Seoul Food, post: 590722, member: 92191
> 
> Again I don't claim to have all the answers but I would think that to say something can never be labeled something else because of a simple ingredient addition or subtraction is a little stubborn.


Let's agree on this:

If you're going to sell a portion of Fett. Alfredo for $15.00 and up, it should be a cream reduction. If you're going to sell it from $4.99-$12.99, anything goes.

There's a big difference-both in terms of ingredient cost, and terms of calories between reduced 33% cream, and roux thickened 2% milk.[/QUOTE]

I understand the point you are trying to make with this comment but I have to point out that arbitrarily assigning labeling rules of dishes based on selling price and price of ingredients is along the same lines of the very thing you stated as being unacceptable in your previous examples. Dish prices are also dictated by location, food trends, etc. so it's not a realistic approach. A dish of pasta in a big city is never going to be close price wise to a small town local place but may contain the exact same ingredients.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

masseurchef said:


> I find Wikipedia actually to be quite helpful in this case:
> 
> "*Fettuccine Alfredo* (Italian pronunciation: [fettut'tʃiːne alˈfreːdo])[1] or *fettuccine al burro*[2] is a pasta dish made from fettuccine tossed with Parmesan cheese and butter.[3][4][5] As the cheese melts, it emulsifies the liquids to form a smooth and rich sauce coating the pasta.[3] In other words, it is a version of pasta with butter and Parmesan cheese (Italian: _pasta al burro e parmigiano_). Alfredo di Lelio gave it this name at his restaurants in Rome, in the early to mid 20th century, where the "ceremony" of preparing it tableside was an integral part of the dish.[3][6]
> 
> ...


This is basically what I was referring to way back in the earlier posts. Cream wasn't even in the original recipes so there are no real set guidelines for alterations since so many versions now exist.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Suddenly my demiglace thread doesn't seem so silly.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

LOL ...

I like the point that somebody mentioned substituting pork for veal! ... _You GO!!!_ *Seoul Food!*


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## ktanasy (May 6, 2010)

masseurchef said:


> Hi, I learned to make Alfredo sauce by sauteeing garlic in butter, then adding cream, and finally hitting it with parm, but I see recipes that are bechamel-based. I'm wondering about reasons for the different approaches, is the bechamel-based sauce a bit lighter perhaps? I've never had too much trouble with the butter+cream+parm method, but is the bechamel perhaps a bit easier to work with in that it provides the consistency?


Nothing good comes easy. Use heavy cream and butter then add the Parmesan cheese. Alfredo sauce does not have garlic. Although many people think so.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

It's kinda funny ... but when I looked up recipes for alfredo sauce ... the first nine(9) included garlic and the tenth(10) did not. It's funny that 9 out of 10 recipes called for garlic. Could you maybe please explain that?

_Thank You._​


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## ktanasy (May 6, 2010)

Just google it, or ask any chef. I’ve worked with several Italian, French & German chefs. Not to say anything is wrong with adding garlic, it’s not in the original recipe.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I DID Google it. The first 9 recipes had garlic ... the 10th didn't. Since now YOU have NO real explanation I guess we can say that alfredo sauce is made with garlic. Unless of course YOU can come up with some "ORIGINAL" ... or "oranginal" as some people like to say ... recipe historic example to show us any different.

_Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter. _


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## ktanasy (May 6, 2010)

Your welcome to make it anyway you choose. I was simply saying that the original Alfredo recipe is made without garlic. It doesn’t matter to me how people make it, I just know how it was shown to me from Italian chefs from Italy.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

OK ... never-mind.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Iceman, I just Googled Alfredo sauce authentic, and the first sentences that appeared were this:

"Traditional *Alfredo sauce* is a simple white/cream *sauce*. It is made from butter, heavy cream, and Parmesan cheese."

...to be fair, it did go on to read that this author did add garlic to this......


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

This thread is a great example of why I stay away from labeling anything I do with the word alfredo in the description. I do a lot of things mentioned in this thread and variations of them, I just stay miles away from the word alfredo; not the ideas presented here.


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## Seoul Food (Sep 17, 2018)

I can't believe this thread is still going.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Seoul Food said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going.


Why? Also keep in mind that you just contributed to the "Energizer Bunny" effect of this thread. :~)


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

*ChefLayne *... Did I not just say ... _"OK ... never-mind."_ in my last post?


_I read what you read._​


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

yeah so what...I don't have a problem with the continued existence of the thread...I don't have a problem with you...*GOT IT ICEMAN*...i just don't call things alfredo, no matter what I call them, they don't come anyway :~)


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_WOW_ ... Just a little bit testy today. _LOL. _


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Iceman said:


> _WOW_ ... Just a little bit testy today. _LOL. _


Yeah you are, but I like you anyway.


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