# Rye Bread



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Since I plan to make some rye bread using Chicage Metallic bread pan, I though that I'd ask: should the pan be placed on a rack in the center of the oven?

I do not forsee using a bread stone in the process.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you don't want crust, the middle is best. If you want a little crust, try the middle but spritz the walls, ceiling and floor. If you want a little more crust, similar to an Armenian or Russian rye, bake at 425 - 450, and do the spritz thing, including the top of the loaf, three times during the first 10 minutes.

During the bake, take 12 oz of well chilled beer, orally.

Prosit,
BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

BDL:

Beer! That's it. I kinda' knew you'd furnish the missing ingredient! Thanks for the suggestions which will all be used in the upcoming week.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

To achieve a better rye flavor, would it be okay to substitute some white/clear vinegar for water on a one-to-one basis? I don't plan to use a starter but may utilize a preferment.


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## stir it up (Oct 15, 2007)

koko, what % of wheat flour to rye flour are you using?

Rye has different properties than wheat flour in terms of its gluten, rye has pentosans and the sourdough functions in part to prevent a gummy loaf, the acid sourdough helps make sure the loaf doesn't degrade, which is especially important in one that is higher % rye with less wheat.

So for success with rye without a sourdough, use one that has a higher %of bread flour IMO. I've never used vinegar, I use a good acidic sourdough for rye. I've seen products sold, but also never used them, such as "rye sours." (?) I remember something at KAF like that.

Note that there is special osmotolerant yeast for higher acid or higher sugar situations -- SAF Gold is an example. It tolerates an acidic dough (such as if using sourdoughs), and also tolerates a higher sugar dough, such as say Pandoro. So I'm thinking if you add too much vinegar, regular yeast might not tolerate it.

That's your next fronteir, to get a good sourdough going for rye :chef:

Sourdough has acetic acid in it, but also lactic acid, and other flavorful stuff (bacterial fermentation as well as yeast). If you're eventually after loafs with more % rye, versus basically wheat loafs with a little rye in there, sourdough is the way to go. The properties of rye, when it is actually the rye that is holding the loaf together and not the wheat, require protection for those pentosans that the sourdough provides. 

So I would say make sure you're at least 50% wheat/bread flour for now if you're not going the sourdough route, and the wheat's gluten will provide the backbone structure for the loaf to rise.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

stir it up covers many of the reasons that, as always, "it all depends."

1 vinegar : 1 water is way too acid.

Peter Reinhardt's Brother Juniper baking book has an interesting recipe which incorporates sauerkraut to make a sour rye. I've done it, it's pretty good.

Fooling around on my own, I've successfully used 1/4 cup each cocoa powder, sherry vinegar, and molasses in a 2-3/4 cup rye to 2-3/4 cup AP flour for two loaves of pumpernickel. You'll also need a double shot of espresso; a bit less than a tbs of salt; somewhere between two and three cups of water; and the right amount of yeast. I don't know what kind you use, so won't give an amount. I'd use 2 tbs of _fermipan _or SAF instant. Throw a couple of tbs of caraway seeds into the dough. Eggwash the top, and sprinkle some poppy seeds on the top.

I form the dough into two boules or fat batards , bake on a sheet (not a stone) oiled and sprinkled with corn meal, set on the middle rack, in a 425F oven, using the three spritz method I wrote about in an earlier post.

With the AP flour, yeast and the seeds this is more of an "American Jewish" pumpernickel than Westphalian.

BDL

PS I get the sense that you're a good enough baker to use the above recipe, which isn't much more than the bare notes from my notebook, without more. But if you want more, I'll write it out in more detail with some description of technique. Let me know. I've got to do it pretty soon, anyway.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Thanks for the most thoughtful posts, SIP and BDL. I plan to shortcut the recipe by not using a sourdough because I'm not ready to make it yet, So i go with a KA insert that accompanies with my Chicago Metallic Hearth Rye Bread pan.

In part, the recipe utilizes:

3 C KA AP flour
1 C white or medium rye flour
3/4 C pumpernickel
1/4 C potato flour
1/4 C nonfat dry milk

some yeast, salt, sugar(optional), oil, caraway seeds and 

1 3/4 C water plus 2-3 TBS if needed


The recipe calls for 1 1/2 tsp deli rye flavor which I highly suspect is acetic acid crystals and other substances. And I was thinking of substituting some white vinegar in place of water to achieve the sour flavor.

And I'm well aware of the benefits and advantages of using a real sourdough starter but am not ready to begin using it. So I'm just shortcutting a real authentic sour rye loaf by using the KA recipe that was furnished with the rye bread pan. Down the road, however, THE adventure awaits!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Koko,

Question: Your recipe calls for "3/4 C pumpernickel." What does it mean by "pumpernickel?"

Vinegar and sourdough are two very different beasts in terms of flavor. Vinegar will not give you that sourdough taste. But, if you want to add a little vinegar in place of water to get some "sour," it's something you can do. The proper ratio of water to vinegar is somewhere in the range of 7:1 to 9:1, depending on how sour the vinegar. The recipe I gave you in my previous post uses a strong vinegar, and you can see the ratio is within the range I gave you.

In the case of the KA recipe, which calls for 14 oz of water (28 tbs) that means using 3 tbs of vinegar, in place of the same volume of water for a ratio of 25:3, or 8-1/3:1.

I see that you wanted a recipe to fit your pan. You can certainly do worse than King Arthur's recipe. Still, mine is better.

When you do begin culturing a sourdough starter, you should know there are some good ones out there. Here's one of the best:
Carl Griffith Sourdough Page 
And... it's free! Be aware though, that keeping sourdough is somewhat like having a pet. It's not no maintenance. It also requires a slower, less demanding approach to baking. You're far more at the mercy of a natural process than someone using a commercial yeast, or even a _pate fermentee_ (poolish).

Luck,
BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

P nickel is, I assume, anything ground into a bag labeled P'nickel! But no, coarsely ground rye grain is Pn as stated by some websites. Like I said, the recipe above is a shortcut recipe.

While the site you furnished looks good, I'll probably follow some sourdough recipe in the BREADBAKER'S APPRENTICE and label my own product as Southeast Georgia Sourdough. It's bound to be a reeeaaaal hit as I doubt that anyone around here has ever made any!

I use SAF Red Instant Yeast and plan to make a New York Deli Style Rye, one without espresso and cocoa (KOKO, you know). I really prefer a light colored rye with seeds - and big holes in the crumb.

When it comes to espresso, I make mine in an ibrik sketo with lots of kaimaki - unsweetened and with lots of foam. Incorporated into dough, the espresso should assist in a good rise and oven spring, don't you think. 8P


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The site I linked is a foundation that will send you a little packet of starter culture. You either have to buy culture or try and grow your own, which is highly problematic. I recommend buying a culture and get your starter going before trying to grow your own. Sometimes the wild bacteria in a given area aren't really suitable for sourdough. Might as well start with something you know will work. 

There are four or five good cultures running around. The Carl Griffiths culture is one of them -- it's historically interesting, and other than the cost of a SASE, it's free. I can't imagine not trying it.

What makes a deli rye a deli rye, or (same thing) a Jewish rye a Jewish rye is the absence of milk in the ingredients. As you know Jews who keep kosher don't mix milk and meat. But they do eat sandwiches.

BDL


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

You've been a wealth of good information and I bookmarked Carl's link for future use.


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