# ChefTalk Knife buying, selection and care guide



## dockterweeble

I am a first year culinary student looking to buy my first, and hopefully last set of knives. Looking for any advice, and specifically the difference between the shun pro and classic models. Is the price difference worth it? What the exact difference is? thanks


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## harpua

I think there are lots of threads on this already. Search for "knives" under the search option. I think you will find many answers


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## adamm

Instead of buying a whole set of knives you might want to check out just buying a knife or two at a time to clompleate a set, i have a pretty full set of wusthof knives, but i do have a cople other knives from other companies.


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## damack

im looking to buy a new chefs knife, the one i have dosent keep an edge for that long, from the different sights i have looked at it looks like for a good quality 10" chefs knife i will have to spend around 100-140. im ok with that cristmas is coming up. any way i have looked at global, hinkel, wolsof, MAC and a few others im thinking MAC because there hub is only 20minutes away and im thinking i might beabel to buy from them and get it a little cheeper and i know a few people that have them and are happy. but let me know what u think

please give me your experance with the knifes and if u think that there worth that. remember i am a poor culanary student but i do want to have good equment.


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## 9ballprodigy

if your knife isn't keeping it's edge, i can only assume two things. either you:
A. have a knife that is stainless steel and is a softer metal than high carbon knives or
B. you are needlessly hacking into things like bone or shellfish.

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. sounds like you need a knife made of harder steel. if you are using a german chef's knife, you may want to switch over to japanese ones. i recommend Shun which has a a steel called VG-10. it allows the edge to be sharpened to a much narrower angle and still be durable. if you have about 250$ to spend, go for the Kaji line which has steel called sg-2. harder steel, shinier, prettier, and a bit more comfortable.

OR if you take care of your knives REALLY well, invest in an all-carbon steel knife. it'll rust a lot easier because of the lack of chromium in the steel compound and it chips a lot easier, but if you keep it dry and don't drop it, nothing else holds it's edge better.


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## cheftorrie

I HATE Japaneese knives...

Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system.
As for knife selection, your best bet would we go to a Chefs Depot or warehouse and hold them in your hand. You need to get what feels best in YOUR hand. "Harder, shinier, prettier, and a bit more comfortable."
Well, number 1, what may be a bit more comfortable for you, might be alot LESS comfortable for other people. Number 2, I really hope a chef or somebody who works in a commercial kitchen did not just describe a knife as shinier, and pretty. Wow.

As for me, I use a Wusthof, and am an adamant supporter of Wusthof, and will try to convince anybody to go and hold one and try one out.
However, I am also aware that they do not fit well in everybody's hand, like they do in mine.
I love my Whustof's , and take very good care of them, as you should whatever direction you choose to to go (which will hopefully not be the Japan route.) I have had mine since my first day at Johnson and Wales, which, was a good time ago. ( I am 38 going on 39) and graduated in 91, and they still slice through the skinside of a tomato like they day I Got them.
And againnn, I know i sound like a broken record, but please to go a warehouse or depot and try some in your hands. Get a feel. You will be doing yourself a favor!


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## buonaboy

I'd stick with german knives, Ive always really liked them. I have a few Globals at home I recived as a gift and they just feel kinda flimsy, they're sharp but just dont feel great. I really like the F.Dick 1905 series they look sexy, they're high carbon so they stay sharp and the balance is perfect. The professional series is really nice as well. I have One J.A. Henckel that I've had for 15 years, but that was when they were good - Now that you can get a one at Target, I just don't trust the quality
-ciao
-mike

P.S. Stop chopping so much and roll the knife -it will stay sharper longer.


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## adamm

I have wusthof knives and love them except that the seem to need to be sharpend very often, but i hate even a remotly dull knife, once my knives have trouble cutting tomatoes i sharpen. I dont like the thoght about getting a japense knife but the next knife im looking at getting is a mac.


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## just jim

I started out by building a set of Henckels a piece at a time.
I have many brands, Wusthof, F. Dick (everyone needs an 8" dick), Globals, some ceramic, Dexters, Forschners, the list goes on.
I definitely don't need a new knife anytime soon, but that has been the case for a few knives now.
When does need have anything to do with it, lol.

While they are good knives, I am tiring of the Wusthofs, Henckels, etc, with a bolster.
I get a longer life out of a Japanese knife without a bolster, and while it won't hold an edge as long as a German, it is easier to sharpen.

As far as how a Wusthof feels, they have a few styles, so you may find one that feels good.

On a side note, Henckels has really whored themselves out, with never need sharpening knives, and they are even stamping their name on Spanish and Japanese steel.
Ugh.


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## gourmetamor

Quick question, what are you using for a cutting board. if your using glass or marble your probably hurting your knife more than you think. you should use plastic or wood. it accepts the blade. harder surfaces round the blade so youll have to hone the blade often. I would suggest SHUN knifes. they are really nice.


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## 9ballprodigy

well, a good functioning knife should have a comfortable handle, good balance, and a steel compound that allows it to hold a good edge. anything after that is glim and glamor. power windows and leather interior. so the kaji line pretty much offers only that after the harder steel. damascus, engravings, it's all just "pretty and shiny". i don't know how else you want it described. "more aesthetically pleasing"?

point being, if you find a knife you are happy with in term of practicality, any dollar spent on it afterwards is going into looks and brand. i like a good looking knife so i spend the extra bucks. shows that i care to have something finer even though i use it everyday.

as for hating japanese knives... to each his/her own. i appreciate the heft of a german knife (if i'm going to be hacking away at squash all day), but if i'm going to be doing fine julienne and fine dicing all day, i rather have a lighter knife. also, i HATE german knives because of the bolster (gets in the way of sharpening) and the spine of the blade is way too thick for me (dicing onions is easier with a japanese knife IMO).


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## damack

well it sounds like it need to go to a cutlery store and see how they fit in my hand,
for the question about cutting bords, no i would never use marbal or anything that hard for my knifes, its plastic and wood. 

right now i have a set of Messermeister which i got from school and i have used MAC and a few other high end knives and i can tell the difference, the knifes i have a good they are just not the best. i would like somthing that can keep an edeg a little better then what i have. also im not sure if i should go with germin or japanis. 

sounds like germin will hold an edge longer and take more abuse, but japanise knife are shaper and will not stay sharp with abuse. is this sound about right?


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## 9ballprodigy

german knives hold an edge longer because it's sharpened to about 22.5 degree angle. the angle that most western culinary schools will tell you to sharpen your knives to.

however, japanese knives tend to be sharpened to a more acute angle. something like 15 degrees. this of course give a sharper edge, but lacks in durability. they counter this downfall by using harder steel compounds. depending on the compound, this either totally makes up for the drawback of a more acute angle, or it just makes it slightly more durable compared to the same angle applied to a german steel knife.


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## cheftorrie

Im not sure what kind of Wusthof you have, or how you take care of it, but like I said, I have had mine for a while, and as long as you run it across your diamond steel quite often, you do not need to sharpen much at all.


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## adamm

See i dont have a diamond steel, i just have a f dick sharpening steel(which just hones and doesnt sharpen. Iv always heard that you can mess up a knife with a diamond steel. Idk if its true or not though.


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## cheftorrie

Like I said, I have had my Knives and Diamond Steel since I started school at JWU, actually, even before that, and my knives are in perfect condition, and I always run my diamond steel on them.


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## angrybob

ChefTorrie, how is your diamond steel holding up to all that usage? Is it a Wusthof brand? The reason I'm asking is I have Chef's Choice diamond steel maybe 7 years old and it's developed a few bald spots on one side that I find a bit annoying. 

Adamm, using a diamond steel won't hurt your knives if you use it carefully. It certainly can and will scratch anything you drag across it's surface like laying the blade flat on the steel's surface. A light touch gives the best results, sometimes I follow up with a regular steel depending on the knife.


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## cheftorrie

I also use a regular steel on occasion. 

But do answer your question, yes mine is a Wusthof, but no it does not have any bald spots. I did have to buy a new one a couple of years ago because it was stolen from the restaurant, so I dont know if I would have, had I still had the same knife. But I do not recall any deformities or anything wrong with it at the time. 
Hope I helped.


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## matt

I dropped my Shun the other week, haven't sharpened it since (just used a steel before shift); it's still sharp as ****. Shun is awesome: the blade is thin, strong, and easily sharpened (because it's thin). I have the 10" chef knife, and it's amazingly comfortable.

I reccommend buying a knife by how it feels in your hand. If it's uncomfortable, it'll give you a callous, which may be considered cool, but hurts like a ***** in the making. Regardless, keeping your knife sharp is going to make more difference than anything, so I'd spend money on a tri-stone before a new knife.

I reccomend against Globals. They feel good at first, in the store; but, after a couple weeks using a Global, you'll have a ridiculous callous. Globals also suck to sharpen; I sharpen my own knives on a tri-stone, and neither I nor a former chef of mine could get my Globals as sharp as my Shun. Actually, that's not true; for one whole shift, we did. Shun > Global, 'nuff said.


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## castironchef

You have two misconceptions in your question.

The first is that you'll need or want a "set" of knives. Like cookware, no set really "does it all," and certainly not what you may eventually be wanting to do.

The second is that you won't become an incurable knife freak, spending the rest of your days on this planet (and much of your hard-earned money) seeking new just-gotta-have-it cutlery.

So, figure out what you'll need for your school and internship. Certainly your school will be a great help with this. Then, shop around and ask questions, especially of those about to graduate.

Lastly, just remember that no matter anyone tells you, there simply is no "best" knife. It all depends upon YOUR hand and YOUR skills and YOUR needs and, alas, YOUR budget.


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## joebot

Good advice! I never bought into sets of anything! lol I find that I can do just fine with a 10 inch chef, 3 in. pairing knife, 10 in. bread knife and 5.5 in. boning knife . Although there are days that I reach for a 10 inch slicer as well. Great removing the skin off salmon and nice slices for pork loins, roasts, etc.. I"m still using the one that came with culinary school knife set .


JB


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## eloki

Get the cheap ones (e.g. victorinox). They're good for a first year. Comfortable handle, and relatively good steel. Also, you can practice sharpening on them, until you get a better knife.


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## angrybob

Thanks for the information ChefTorrie.


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## laxflier

Still the best out there.... Stays sharp for weeks.....


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## nickydafish

Hello everyone! I've finally arrived at the point in my short career where I felt it was time to start getting my own knives. Until now, the few kitchens I've worked in always supplied knives. I did a little research and with the help of some of you here, I went with an 8" Mac. I went for the 8" because for me I felt like it would be good for finer cuts and if I was doing some serious prep, it wouldn't be so heavy in my hand. Next month I'll go for my own 10". For now we have plenty at work I can use, but it's been so much fun using my own knife.  I also bought a knife roll. So far all I have is my new Mac, and some knives my old boss gave me. (paring, bread). I also put a quick read thermometer and poultry sheers in as well. These are all things I use every night. So what I'm wondering is what do some of you include in your knife rolls? Thanks guys! Take care all.


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## ghettoracingkid

Chef knife
PAring knife
slicing knife
utlity knife
boning knife
steel
3 wooden spoons
tongs
fish spatula
peeler,
shark sharpener (works fast)
measuring spoons

things in it that I mean to take out but never do,

offset spatula
straight saptula
pastry brush
parign knife (extra)


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## chef monganie

Get a good knife steel to help keep them sharp.


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## kuan

Get a bench knife. It's handier than you think.


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## adamm

i carry a 8 in chef, 7 in santoku, 10 in. scimeter, clever, boning knife, filet knife, slicing knife, serrated slicer, paring, birds beak, diamond steel, sharpening steel, pastry brush, bench scraper, measuring spoons, rubber spatula, wooden spoon, channel knife, tongs, fish spatula, pizza cutter, microplane zester, melon baller. I proabaly have more but thats all i can think of right now.


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## montelago

I agree that you should not just buy a set of knives for the name. Mix and match. A very good value for a decent knife is the Forschner line. They have everything from basic short tang plastic handled jobs to really nice blades, and they won't cost you a week's paycheck.

Also, it seems that everyone is playing up the hardness of the steel. It is true that the harder the steel the longer the edge will last, but try resharpening a Shun or other really high carbon knife on a tri-stone when you are just learning your knife craft. Remember back in the day, those old crappy looking knives that always needed polishing. Those knives had soft blades and were absolute hair splitters. A couple of licks on a steel throughout the day, and it would fall through a ripe tomato.

You have to balance the sharpenability of a knife with the durability of the edge. To simplify, if you want to to know the quality of a blade in an instant, tap it against a metal prep table. A good hard blade will have a high pitched ring, a low quality blade will make a hollow click.


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## montelago

As far as the knife roll goes, get rid of it and get a good tool box that you can lock and carry all of your essential goodies in. That way you are ready for anything. I have

8" chef
7" santoku
10" slicer
10" scimiter
6" flexible boning
7" stiff boning
bread
cleaver
paring
steel
peeler
rubber spatula
arkansas stone
shears
antibiotic
band aids
bamboo skewers
metal spoon
slotted spoon
fine wire whip
2 and 4 oz ladles
injector needle
larding needle
needle nose pliers
microplane
ice cream scoop
butcher twine
tomato shark
wine key
can opener
ruler
sharpies
small immersion blender
meat mallet
measuring cups and spoons
saffron
lime and white truffle oil
pastry bag and tips/couplers
probe
candy thermometer
fish spatula
small plastic mandolin

I know it sounds like a lot of stuff, but I promise you it will fit in a decent size Stanley tool box. Then you can walk in and kick ***. This is extraordinarily handy when interviewing for serious jobs and are required to do a tasting. Never rely on their kitchen to be stocked with the items you will need to pull off a miracle.


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## adamm

does any one know where you can get a old carbon steel(not high carbon new stuff) chef knife, i have checked ebay but most the knives on there seem beat up. I have read things about how the old knives you can keep really sharp and they stay that way for a long time. Im looking for a wusthof one in particular, or and old sabatier since they seem like the ones that were very well known for there knives.


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## adamm

i have been searching around and found sabatier still makes carbon knives. I cant find a dealer though in the use that carrys chef knives. Any one have any links?


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## vince

I own a set of Henckles knives that I bought from U.S.A. about 22 years ago and they're still sharp. I keep honig them regularly, my colloegues are always using them too. That time around this set of knives had a lifetime guarantee, matter of fact one day i dropped my 8" the handle broke in two, and it was replaced without questions asked. Henckles the best


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## brooklynchef

I am a strict Japanese Knife loyalist. Even western style japanese knives are far superior to anything the french, germans, or americans make. My Gyotu or chef knife is made by Nenox. It is quite expensive, but there are less expensive japanese knives available with outstanding quality, such as Misono and many more. There is a place called Korin Japanese Trading company in NYC. Check it out in person or on line. There is nothing quite as pleasurable as using these blades. As far as additional equipment. I always keep a paring knife (misono) a bread knife (embarrassed to say cutco) a few wooden spoons, needle nose plyers, an offset peltex, and a few slotted and normal large metal spoons, as well as a Kuhn Rikon veg peeler. Check out korin though, they have really cool stuff like a shark skin grater - the one morimoto uses to grate fresh wasabi.


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## brooklynchef

I used to think (back in culinary school) that German, specifically wustoff, were the end all be all. My Mother allways swore by them, and that was the brand given to us in culinary school. I then quickly learned in the real world how wrong I was. If you really really care about your knife, and you should because it is a chef's best friend, then Japanese is the way to go. It takes some effort to learn how to properly sharpen them, but once you get the hang of it, you will find it to be part of your ritual after service every night. I never touch my nenox or my misono to a honing steel. 1) because it would kill my knives, 2) because I do not need to because I sharpen on a fine and then super fine wetstone every day for about 3 minutes, and 3) if a japanese cook ever saw me touch my knife to a steel I think he would take my head off and bury my knife. Seriously it is important to have a great Japanese knife. Perhaps nobody does more percision cutting than the Japanese. They really know finesse. Check out Korin Japanese Trading Company, look them up online. Or if you are in NYC they are at 57 Warren St.


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## phatch

That's a big statement to make. So please quantify how it's better and why so we can understand your claim.

I think there is premier level knifemaking happening all over the world including Japan. But that Japan gets a fake mystique from their samurai history. Pattern welding and differential hardening are easily exceeded in modern manufacture of powdered, sintered vacuum melting processes.


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## brooklynchef

It may be a big statement, but from my experience, and those of the many people with whom I have worked, Japanese knives (many brands) get sharper and are easier to sharpen than Sabatier, Wustoff, Henkels, Furi, and the list goes on. In addition, many of them are much lighter in weight. Now, that being said, much in the discussion has to do with personal preference of comfort, balance, etc... As I said in the previous post, I used Wustoff for a long time, and my world changed the day someone talked me into buying a misono. In my business, I do instructional cooking parties as well as private cooking lessons in peoples homes. While I myself use a Nenox Gyotu with a white Corian handle (it is way pricey), I have a bunch of misono's for my clients to use. Most of them have Henkels or Wustof that they probably got off of their bridal registry. The minute they pick up either my nenox or my misono, and dice or slice on onion, they are converted.
Now, this is not to say that the French, Germans, Australians, and Americans do not make high quality knives, because many of them are fine. But because so much of what makes a knife great is in the pudding so to speak, and not in the quantifiable atributes, I would say that while these others produce high-quality nice knives, brands like Nenohi(nenox), Misono, masamoto, togiharu, Aritsugu and others are simply better. I urge anyone in question to try them out.
Shun and Global do not count. If people are basing their negative opinions on these brands then I understand their feelings. try some of those I mentioned above.


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## phatch

I agree somewhat. The Henkels/Wusthoffs etc are not hardened sufficiently for really good edge performance. 

On the other hand, I don't think Japanese knifes are better than other really high end kitchen knives either. I do like that they are thinner in general though.

Phil


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## e_bayone

as for me i graduated for the institute of technology and we were given mesamister knives. they were awsome for the time being but after working with a few chefs that were die hards in the kitchen i soon leaned to the MAC line. The feel and the weight are like no other in the kitchen, smoothe cuts and and they dont leave fruit or herbs brused. Dont get me wrong i also have a woustof grand prix and its a work horse also. but if you want something that will keep its value and give some prestige go with the MAC.:chef:


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## butcher block

Hi,
I was a butcher for 16 years and have been in the cooking relm for about 3 years. Here is my two cents. I have used all types of knives and steels and find like anything else, you have to be a professonal before you can make anything work. Just as a professional golfer can hit any club within 1% accurecey, you will have to learn to use a knife and use it to perfection before you can realy make your own call on a knife. I am sorry but that is my take on it. Until you realy get good you will have to strugle with sharpening, cutting, and handeling a knife, any knife. Believe me I have the scars to prove it. Use what you can afford and don't worry about the rest until you have used knives enough to say this feels good or this sucks. It is then you can spend some money on knives that will make a difference in your performance. I have read all the advice these obveous professionals have given and all of it is good, but they have already been through the hours apon hours of working with knives and are trying to show you an easy path but they had to go through it and unfortunately so do you. I hope this will save you some money and aggrevation out of spending too much on something you are not happy with.


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## mad pearl diver

Apparently I have to make five posts before I can include links to other websites. So you will have to do search to see what I am talking about (if you haven't already seen them).

I just got a New West Knife Works "fusionwood" chef knife a few weeks ago, and I freaking love this thing. You may find many the choices for the handle colors atrocious, but I find the "cowboy" one looks pretty cool.

The steel is great. It gets very sharp, but is also easy to sharpen. As soon as I took it out of the box I gave it a few swipes on an oiled Arkansas stone and it was shaving sharp. The overall design seems like a good combination of Western and Japanese styles. The blade is not too thick or too thin. 

I still love my old Trident, but this one gets and stays sharper. I also like the way the blade stays wide almost to the tip (more room for my knuckles).

Just my two cents...


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## sweetjames

i'm thinking about getting a 7" wusthof gourmet Santoku Knife.
i'm a pantry line cook right now, and not in need of anything super high end.
is the wusthof gourmet series good enough for the rigors of every day use, or are they basicly made for light home use?


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## adamm

iv never used there goumet knives but i have there classic serries knives. If your serous about cooking just spend the money and get a good knife, if you get a 30 or 40 dollar knife and it last only 6 months and buy another knife at the same price you could have bought your self a nice knive. The choice is utlimily up to you.
I bought my 7 in classic santoku knife off of ebay for about 60 bucks. I also bought my classic 8 in chefs for about 55. I woudl definily try them out in my hand and atleast know if you like the feel. 
If you dont want to go the ebay route i would sujust geting victorinox forcher knives there made by the the same people who make swiss army knives. A chefs knife is probaly around 30 and if you want a santoku i belive there alittle less. I have a few knifes of theres and love them very shap durable and pretty easy to sharpen. Cooks illistrated did a test on chefs knives within the past year and they rated the victorinox knives at the top. If you dont want to spend the money for a upper class wusthof i would buy victorinox. But thats me, every ones to there own opinion.


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## breadmeister2

Just go to Tuesday Morning and look to see what knives they're selling. There are some aspects to the type of knife, but ultimately, it is how you use it. All too often I watch an inexperienced cook used the blade side to "wipe" the cutting board and move whatever is being diced to a specific area. As far as I'm concerned, this is the most common reason a knife becomes dull. If you need to move your prep to another area of the cutting board, hold your knife at the angle it is sharpened and push it to the desired area. Otherwise, use the back of the knife (opposite the blade), that way there isn't anything that will be dulled.

If you're cutting lots of softer vegetables, (tomatoes, cucumber, etc.), a thin blade works best. If you're chopping heavy items (carrots, root vegetables, etc.) a thicker blade is better, because you need it to wedge into the item. 

I have bought Victorinox, (nice medium thick blade without any hilt) and they are wonderful. Recently, I've been in Tuesday Morning, and found some decent, thin knives which are perfect for a pantry station. Be sure to sharpen them regularly, (whenever putting them to a steel doesn't correct them). If you don't know how to use a stone, make sure you learn on an inexpensive knife. That way you will know what you're doing when you have a pricey knife. 

The Henkel Four Star are great knives as well, and I have several. Just make sure if you invest in them, don't let anyone borrow them. Keep some cheap knives to loan. Anyone who needs to borrow a knife should only be allowed to use your worst knife. If they don't like it, let them buy their own!!

Breadman


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## shi shen

Just get a cheap knife for work. In my experience their is always somebody around who doesn't want to be there and will treat all equipment like junk.


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## crimsonmist308

when i was younger, i fell for the german knife hype and worked and saved until i bought my first wusthof. then i worked and saved until i bought two more. then i tried out a MAC superior 7" chef's knife and WOW!! what a difference! 

for a knife that costs less than half of a wusthof, there was a measurable 
increase in the precision and quickness of my cutting. i couldn't believe how much better it sliced and then it was one more MAC after another then i branched out to sujimoto, shimamura, nenohi, tojiro, and the list goes on!

sold all my wusthofs on ebay cuz i was never going to use them again.

and for anyone who doesn't believe the japanese knives can take chopping 
through hard squash and stuff like that, that is why i bought a $40 chan chee kee medium heavy chopping knife!


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## boar_d_laze

A very interesting thread with a lot of good information and a lot of bad.

A "diamond steel" is not a steel in the ordinary sense, it's a sharpener, and a fairly coarse one at that. If used properly it will net a sharp, but scratchy edge with a lot of tooth. It will also eat knives over time. 

Most modern stainless steel knives manufactured by European and American manufacturers are made from what is called "world steel" as a result of trade policy. It's an inferior steel in many ways when compared to the specialty steels used by high-end Japanese manufacturers. Again -- a result of trade policy. 

The Japanese manufacture knives specifically intended for Western cuisine. Japanese chef knives (gyuto) are geometrically similar to classic French chef knives. That is they have a flatter belly and narrower spine than German (and American) equivalents. The large spear-point paring knife called "petty," and the slicer called "sujihiki" are identical to European patterns -- at least as to blade. German, French and Japanese bolsters differ from one another. The remaining Japanese western "yo" knives actually have more in common with Japanese styles than actual western patterns. 

Japanese western knives are usually sharpened to a 15 degree or less angle. The standard for western knives is around 22 degrees. However, the difference does not end there. Some Japanese knives are sharpened to a symmetrical "V," but most are not. Some are sharpened on only one side, and others are sharpened on both sides, but unevenly. The asymmetry is calculated to form a thinner, sharper edge. 

Because Japanese blades are made of harder, thinner steel. Their narrow edges hold up at least as well as the edges on Wusties, Henckels, Messers, etc. The edge geometry means sharpening requires less material removal, so a reasonably skilled sharpener can actually sharpen a Japanese knife more easily. The asymmetrical edges are designed for use by right-handed cooks. The edges can be reset to be ambidextrous, or reset for lefties. Knives designed for the other hand are awkward at best, and at worse unsafe. Globals and Macs are symmetrical. Shuns are right-handed. 

Globals are made of a type of steel common to upper-mid Japanese knives. Their design is unique. You'll either like it or not. Typically cooks with large hands -- even if they pinch grip -- find Globals uncomfortable. They're extremely well balanced because the metal handle is filled with sand before it's sintered to the blade. I disagree with the comment that Globals are in some way not Japanese. However, I don't like them because they're way too small for me and think their design is cold and uninvolving. 

Another group of knives with good steel are the French carbons -- mostly, one way or the other, under the Sabatier name. I'm a big fan, and most of the knives in my block are either old or antique Sabatiers. If the idea interests you, go to The Best Things website and look at the Nogent (antique), Canadian Massif (antique) and Elephant Carbon (new) lines; or the Sabatier-Shop for a peek at the "Au Carbone" or "Antique K-Sabatier" lines. I should mention that of the many companies calling themselves Sabatier, Elephant and K are two of the four good ones.

These carbon knives will take an edge a little quicker than almost any stainless knife, but will hold it better than you'd think. The Sabs mentioned here are in the 55-58 HRC (Rockwell Hardness) range. Which is pretty hard. Your basic Wustie or Henckels is about 50. French knives are built with narrower spines than Germans and consequently the angle of the knife's body is more acute. This means the knife is suited for a slightly more acute edge. I sharpen most of my French carbon steel knives to 15 deg, and find they hold the edge well. German knives can be sharpened to angles more acute than 20 degrees and as long as you're not using them as cleavers they'll hold. 

You don't need a heavy knife to cut a carrot. On the contrary, a sharp light knife will cut one better. A heavy knife with an obtuse angle is good for going through cartilage like rip tips, splitting chicken, chopping pineapple crowns and other cleaving. Otherwise a light knife is almost always a better choice as long as you like the feel. 

Everything else being equal, a knife made from softer steel will dull faster than one made from hard. But everything is never equal. Knives most often go dull quickly from poor sharpening, improper storage, or improper use. One of the most common reasons a student's or inexperienced line chef's knives dulls quickly is because it is sharpened to a "wire edge," rather than a true edge. 

Almost any knife can be sharpened to where it will take hair. That's not a particularly good standard. Someone in this thread talked about a knife "falling through" a tomato. That's exactly sharp enough. Less is not sharp enough. Most factory edges aren't nearly as good as one you can do yourself, once you have the hang. If you can get a knife sharp, you need to use a fine, a smooth, or a combination steel. A smooth steel is best on a really sharp blade. When you notice that steeling isn't doing what it should do, switch to the fine. F. Dick and HandAmerica make the best steels.

Japanese knives, whether carbon, stainless, or carbon wrapped in stainless cladding, tend to be made of harder steel than western knives. HRC above 60 is not at all uncommon. But Globals and Shuns are about 58-59, as are all knives made of the most common high-end stainless, VG-10. I believe the steel was originally formulated for golf clubs as "V-Gold." Modern high-tech steel formulations like "Sandvik powder steel" and traditional, local steels like "Aokami blue" are much harder. Perhaps the biggest drawback to good Japanese knives is a tendency to chip. Brittle is sometimes synonymous with hardness. One way around is to use carbon instead of stainless knives. The steel tends to be both harder and more flexible. Go figure. Of course, you have to be willing to put up with the extra maintenance. Also, with the exception of a few manufacturers, Japanese carbon lines are less expensive than their upmarket stainless -- and consequently don't get the same fit and finish. 

The whole samurai sword thing is way overdone. It's mostly just advertising. However, one or two techniques do cross over. One is worikami -- surrounding a very thin, hard piece of steel used for the edge, with protective, softer steel sides. A good example, suitable for a working pro chef is the Tenmi Jyuraku AO line from Hiromoto. So, what's not suitable for a working chef? If you don't know how business is done in Japan, it seems counter-intuitive, but the really high-end Japanese knives like Nenox aren't intended for a commercial kitchen -- and really not intended for cooking at all. They're meant to be "presentation" gifts, and as such, to be kept in their original boxes and packed away in a closet or displayed on a stand. 

The Santoku is not a traditional Japanese shape. A lot of cooks like them. Personally I don't get it. They don't do anything a mid-sized chef's knife won't, I don't care for the "sheeps-foot" dropped point, and just don't like their looks. Don't let my bad-mouthing influence you. They seem very friendly to people with small hands, and besides, what do I know? 

Ignorance is not always bliss. If you don't know how, LEARN TO PINCH GRIP. Everyone talks a lot about "balance," but more than half don't know how to hold the ****ing thing. 

Your knives are the tools of your craft. If you take pride in it, it's worth investing in good knives for your most frequent tasks. On the other hand, if you don't do much garde manger or butchering you don't need the high-end specialty knives. But if you might still need something functional. The name Forschner has come up often in this thread. Forschner is the best when you don't need the best. I like the Rosewood line, personally and have a bunch of them. F. Dick's commercial lines are Forschner's equal in every respect. 

Conventional wisdom is that forged blades are better than stamped. Take it from me, not true anymore. 

Give up yet?
BDL


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## foodpump

Amen to all that. Amen to the "Diamond steels" Amen to the "Supposed inferiority of stamped steel blades" and one heckuva Amen on how to properly handle a knife.


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## crimsonmist308

great basic knowledge!

(A "diamond steel" is not a steel in the ordinary sense, it's a sharpener, and a fairly coarse one at that. If used properly it will net a sharp, but scratchy edge with a lot of tooth. It will also eat knives over time.)

true, and yet ... how long do you want a knife to last? one head chef i know changes his knives (globals) every four/five years. a sushi chef i know SHARPENS his yanagi every day, and has worn his aritsuga from 10" down to
where it is now 8.5". i personally go for a fine grit ceramic "steel" as with the
hardness of my japanese knives and the angle i sharpen them, edge rollover is not a concern (as will happen with softer metal). sure, a very little metal is removed every time i use it, but it is very very little.

(The Japanese manufacture knives specifically intended for Western cuisine. Japanese chef knives (gyuto) are geometrically similar to classic French chef knives. That is they have a flatter belly and narrower spine than German (and American) equivalents. The large spear-point paring knife called "petty," and the slicer called "sujihiki" are identical to European patterns -- at least as to blade.)

which makes me wonder why some posters claim they don't like the feel of japanese blades when the handles are virtually identical. agree also with what you say about the blades being thinner and harder and therefore sharper. a less thick blade "wedges" less so as to slide through food faster.

i have had my "western styled" symmetrically sharpened blades reground to
a more 70/30 or even a 80/20 edge. this is in itself something that can make a knife feel sharper (because it is a narrower angle).

(The whole samurai sword thing is way overdone. It's mostly just advertising. However, one or two techniques do cross over. One is worikami -- surrounding a very thin, hard piece of steel used for the edge, with protective, softer steel sides. A good example, suitable for a working pro chef is the Tenmi Jyuraku AO line from Hiromoto. So, what's not suitable for a working chef? If you don't know how business is done in Japan, it seems counter-intuitive, but the really high-end Japanese knives like Nenox aren't intended for a commercial kitchen -- and really not intended for cooking at all. They're meant to be "presentation" gifts, and as such, to be kept in their original boxes and packed away in a closet or displayed on a stand. )

japanese cuisine is much different than in a western kitchen. rarely do you 
ever hear the loud chopping and hacking you may hear in a western kitchen. usually pretty quiet. here in san francisco, i know of maybe 12 or 13 sashimi chefs who use their high end ($350 and up) knives for day to day work. i have asked them about chipping of knife edges and it is unheard of to them because they don't hack, twist, or whack their blades. to them, if this happens, you aren't "one with the blade" ... their words.

(Ignorance is not always bliss. If you don't know how, LEARN TO PINCH GRIP. Everyone talks a lot about "balance," but more than half don't know how to hold the ****ing thing. )

pinch grip is one of the better grips. seems interesting to me that the best sushi chefs use the pinch grip with the index finger on the spine of the knife (iron chef morimoto and iron chef sekai both use this grip on there most intricate knifework ... check it out on old "iron chefs")

(Conventional wisdom is that forged blades are better than stamped. Take it from me, not true anymore. )

amen to that, brother!! i have checked out over 5,000 knives at the various knife shops i frequent and i can say with great certainty that "stamped" knives (although a lot of stamped knives nowadays are water cut or laser cut) tend to be a LOT straighter than forged knives. and to me, if a knife
isn't straight, it is useless to me.

my two cents.


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## boar_d_laze

And a few other things too!

Don't get me wrong on the good German and American knives. The big names make good knives. Not _great_ knives, but some darn good ones. I'm certainly not criticizing anyone who chooses them either. Like it? Fine. As it happens, I put the better Messies, Wusties, and Henckels (Hankies?) and their ilk, way up on the "certainly a valid choice and way up near the top of the list" scale. They clean easily. The look beautiful. The fit and finish is superb -- on the whole much better than most Japanese knives. Like any decent knife they can be sharpened to perfection. So what if they don't hold the edge quite as long? I mean, what the **** do you want?

_If you take anything from me on knives and knife-technique take these two things:_

1) *If you pinch grip, ease the corners on your knives' spines -- or have it done for you.* This will make an incredible difference in the quality of your evening at work. And good bye knife calluses! (I did it for my knives by holding them at a 45 deg angle to my coarsest stone (coarse India) until I could feel the new angle, then halving the angle of the newly ground face to around 70 deg where it met the old faces. Then I progressively polished the edge with a fine India and soft Arkansas allowing a little flex in the stroke to round off the bevel. I kept the width of the eased area to the width of my stones (2"). Perfect. Like buttah, even. As I said, you don't have to do this for yourself, you can have it done. If I were to do a whole set again, I'd use a dremel or a wheel.)

2) *If you call yourself a pro and you don't pinch grip, what the heck is wrong with you?*

On to other things:

There used to be a clear best choice for European style knives, and that was Sabatier. Unfortunately the *real* Sabatier gave up exclusive rights to the Sabatier name long ago -- like the beginning of the last century. Some of the rights-holders make wonderful knives in France and some of the holders make lousy knives all over the globe. Even the good manufacturers went through a period of lousy quality control during the late sixties and through the seventies. The good manufacturers were also somewhat late to respond to the challenge of stainless -- preferring to cling to old tech, varietal, carbon steels.

Well boys, they're baaaaaaaaaaaaack! There are two "good" Sabatiers (of which I'm aware, anyway) with any availability in the US. These are "Elephant" a k a Thiers-Issard, Sabatier-K, and Lion Sabatier. Elephant makes stainless knives on a par with the best Germans, but according to the French patterns -- which I prefer for their agility. And when it comes to good carbons, Sab-K and Elephant may be your last big-name, modern, western sources. "Lion" Sabatier used to be pretty good, but they don't have any presence in the market anymore.

FWIW a couple of better U.S. schools are recommending Elephant stainless to their students and Sab-K "au carbone" is still really big in UK and French kitchens. My A number 1 10" chef's, my first go to knife, is a Sab-K au carbone. I bought an NOS Lion paring knife from Amazon a couple of years ago. The steel and handle scales were excellent, but whoever put the grind and edge on the blade must have been hung-over. Don't worry, it fixed-up fine.

_Never buy a knife because it's supposedly the "sharpest" out of the box._ Unless it's from a custom maker, the edge it comes with can almost certainly be improved, because a good hand-ground edge is better than a wheel edge. Anyway, _the hardest, most bestest edge in the world won't last all that long and you have enough evidence to already know how evanescent an edge is. *How many good shaves do you get out of a blade?*

Your knife is only as good as your sharpening regimen, your storage, and your board. If they have a tri-hone in your kitchen learn to use it. Buy a few el-cheapos from a flea market, order a Norton IB-8 (compound India stone) and learn to sharpen a knife. If they don't have a tri-hone try and talk 'em into buying a Chef's Choice machine. It's not as good as a deluxe tri-hone with Arkansas stones, but it's easier and cheaper!. Easier means it gets used more. Getting used is key. Cheaper never needs explanation. Plastic boards are not as good as wood boards. Wood boards are self-healing; and to amazing extent, self-sterilizing. Plastic develops deep scratches which breed bacteria. If they've got anything other than nylon or wood at work, try and talk the boss into wood. Sell the benefits of hygiene and the time savings of less frequent sharpening.

Diamond steels and other coarse sharpeners are less-good alternatives. One of their characteristics is putting "scratch" or "tooth" on the edge. This allows the edge to function as a saw. These edges last longer, but don't make as clean a cut as a polished edge. The cut feels different, too. It grabs, instead of gliding -- tears, instead of slicing. The differences are the same as those between a saw and a scalpel. Some people like a scratchy edge. It's excellent for tough, thin skins like tomatoes and bell peppers; and holds up to far more prep on those than a smooth edge. If you prefer a rough edge you might want to try a "Chantry" instead of a diamond steel. Much easier to use. Plus it looks good on the counter, and it's too heavy to steal.

Personally, I prefer a polished edge for chef's knives and parers, and a very highly polished edge for slicers and boners. The polishing stone I use is a black Arkansas. Then on the chef's and parers, I take the edge down a little with an "extra fine" Henckels steel, and maintain the edge with the same steel. The slicers and boners get maintained on a "HandAmerica" glass, smooth steel. Too inside baseball for you? Get a good, fine steel. Standard steels are too coarse for almost everyone, but are sold because they scuff up the knife and create the illusion of sharpness.

Another plug for ChefsChoice electric sharpening machines: They are very good; unlike stones, they are also very fast, and don't ask anything from you. They're also gentle on your knives if you use them frequently enough to avoid the coarse wheel more than a few times a year. That being said, a hand ground, straight faced edge cuts better than one of their bevels.

You're a working pro in a kitchen where knives get borrowed. Do you bring in a great knife and worry? Or, do you bring in a good, but inexpensive knife? Self answering question, isn't it? And yet another argument for the rich, juicy goodness of Forschner's and F. Dick's commercial lines. Speaking of Forschners, they're good enough to bother resetting the edge and easing the spine. Just like their Swiss Army pocket knives, they take a great edge easily. And unlike the pocket knives, the handles stay on.

You're a working pro and you've decided to try out the virtues of carbon steel at work. *Are you nuts?* Where are you going to find the time to rinse the knife after every onion?

How often should you steel your knives? Simple answer. Every time.

Thanks for letting me vent,
BDL_


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## ajoe

Do you have any data to support this? I have seen reports--one presented by Alton Brown--that shows there is virtually no difference between wood and plastic when it comes to harboring/growing bacteria and/or their ability to be sanitized. And what about the new plastic boards that have microban(?) impregnation and are bacteriostatic?


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## boar_d_laze

AJoe,

Among others, the Cliver study, intro reproduced here: Bacteria and Various Cutting Board Materials by Dean O. Cliver Ph.D on the Natural Handyman home repair and do it yourself website

That having been said, when it comes to actual sanitation, not propaganda designed to get the boss to buy you a wood board for the benefit of your knives, maintenance is FAR more important than material. If you need a study, I've got one.

The proposition that there's little difference after cleaning is probably true. The Truth About Cutting Boards and Bacteria

That having been said, Alton Brown is fine, but let's not confuse him with someone who's actually knows what they're talking about. He's a Jr. High teacher who became a TV cooking teacher, not an actual scientist. Not meant as a criticism, because Brown presents good information in a responsible way. Just sayin', let's keep some perspective. Like me, he's only repeating what he was told by his betters.

BDL


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## boar_d_laze

Crimson,

I've got no brief for or against diamond steels -- just telling the truth about them. To the extent that I don't like them -- it's the coarseness of the edge, not anything else. Basically, it's a "fast and dirty" edge a k a "good enough for Government Work." Sometimes and for some people, that's perfect. I wouldn't recommend my sharpening system -- two man made, two Arkansas stones, and two steels for anyone other than a hobbyist. Big over-train.

I'm guessing a lot of people don't like the feel of Japanese knives for two reasons. They miss the heft of western, forged knives. They miss a German bolster. The second means that the cook is substituting the bolster for a _proper_ grip. Let me add that I mean "proper" in a pedagogical not a practical sense. Whatever gets you through the night.

Regarding the finger-on-spine grip -- It's an intuitive grip for precision cutting. It also helps to accurately place the tip of a very long blade. I find myself using my index finger the same way when I make very thin, shaving slices in meat using a slicer -- also a long blade with a narrow face. I'm not sure that it actually helps. It may be one of those things we do when trying to do fine work -- like making faces. I've noticed the grip becomes increasingly less productive with whatever effort is required to get the blade into the product, and starts pointing the knife in all sorts of weird directions.

The pinch grip's superiority seems to be absolute with a chef's knife, though. It's precision comes from keeping the wrist inline with the forearm. It's not intuitive and takes some getting used to, but it's mechanically better.

Asian cooks making Asian foods live an entirely different world. Different tools, different techniques. However by Japanese standards $400 is NOT an expensive knife, it's an "I have pride in my craft" mid-grade. _Your good yanagiba_ run up from $1K, neh?

BDL


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## ajoe

Thank you for the links!

Just so there is no misunderstanding, it was not Alton Brown's opinion or his study. He simply presented the results of a study done by some else. I think it was NSF or USDA, but I'm not 100% sure on that point.


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## brooklynchef

My Nenox Gyotu chef knife has a corain handle and was $370. Yes, it is pricey, but price, like everything else, is relative. There are Yanagi knives that sell for 3K. Price is not the point though. The Japanese make knives that are so superior in craftsmanship, ease of use, balance, sharpness, ease of sharpening, etc. I happen to think that the Nenox I have is the perfect sort of best of both worlds sort of knife. It has nice weight to it, although it is not heavy and very well balanced, It is a western style knife made by the Japanese. Now, I know that it is tough for a lot of people to justify spending that kind of money on a knife - especially considering average salary of those in our line of work, but 3 things...
1) You do not need to spend so much - the nenox is one of many great Japanese made western style knives ...try togaharu, misono...
2) You use your knife more than any other tool... your money will go a long way if you take good care of it.
3) The ease of precision cutting at great speed is important if you take your work seriously, whether you are a high-end sushi chef, or a banquet hall caterer. This as someone said previously is about pride of your work, and these knives are unparalleled in allowing you to take pride from the time you get your ingredients on your cutting board.

check out Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives
great japanese knife site - the store is in NYC


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## foodpump

Price isn't the point. Exactly and if a $60.00 knife can do the same job as a $400.00 knife then price really isn't the point. Granted $370.00 for a knife for a seasoned pro in a small kitchen where everybody knows everybody and looks out for everybody isn't a problem. 
But $370.00 for a knife is too much for someone who hasn't developed the required skills and is starting off in a kitchen with many different people, some coming, some going, delivery guys hanging around waiting for a signature on an invoice and eyeing some poor schmuck's knife kit when the owner's in the john or called away. Sadly, this is a fairly typical scenerio.

There are many of us here who don't subscribe to the point of view that clothes make the man. This view gets extended to knives don't make the cook. Many employers, Chefs and co-workers look at the skill and dexterity of the new guy rather than the knife itself. In the end, a knife is just a hunk of steel with a sharp edge, the magic is in the user's hand.


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## boar_d_laze

I want to be very careful talking about Brooklyn's Nenox and foodpump's response to Brooklyn's endorsement. For one thing, my entire experience with up-level Nenox is watching other people I don't know well, or reading comments on 'net forums -- including some by people who I do know well, but only in teh internets kinda way. For those of you who don't know, the internets are like tubes. But I digress 

I agree with Brooklyn and foodpump. I think Neno-hi makes wonderful knives, but would never recommend a Nenox S1 or SD knife to someone asking generic questions. 

The up-level Nenox are aficionados' knives. When you look carefully at what goes into their kasumi/honwarikomi construction you see that a lot is spent on appearance. You don't get any performance benefit out of the extra layers in the "damascus" jigane. They're strictly for appearance. OTOH, Neno-hi's hagane, has a reputation as being wonderful to use, easy enough to sharpen, and compared to the Hattori KD, surprisingly tough and resilient. 

Nevertheless the knife isn't a better performer than say, a Ryusen Blazen or a Hiromoto AS -- to name two very different knives that cost half as much and are still beyond the scope of most people who don't have a very good sense of what they don't like about "normal knives." 

None of this is to say the Nenox isn't worth the money, or a superb pro-knife. We have to trust Brooklyn regarding the second proposition and value is in the eye of the beholder. But because it's an aficionado knife, I assume anyone who asks the sort of questions which don't point (more or less) directly at a Nenox isn't a good candidate as a prospective owner. For heaven's sake how can you recommend a Nenox to someone who doesn't know how to sharpen? 

FWIW, I get asked a lot, and am very reluctant to recommend my type of knife -- carbon steel -- to a pro. 

Your pal in knifitude, 
BDL


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## brooklynchef

Agree completely. I do think, however, that there are some great Japanese knives for beginners, ones that are far less expensive than the aforementioned nenox, that would get a beginner farther, faster in his/her learning/training than would their German or American counterparts. I once worked with someone who made an interesting statement that you have only become a master at using your knife once you have destroyed one knife and 1 stone through heavy use... A good point on several levels. Aside from catering, my company offers Private Cooking Lessons and Instructional Cooking Parties in peoples' homes. I use misono for these lessons, and my clients, most of whom have Wustoff or Henkels in their kitchens, often go out the next day and buy a misono due to their ease of use compared to the heavier German knives. I get an extraordinary amount of thank yous from them telling me that my advice on these knives changed their entire cooking experience. There are some fantastic knives out there for beginners coming from Japan, and many cost under $120!

Happy Cutting


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## boar_d_laze

Brooklyn, 

The folks I run into who want knife recommendations fall into several groups. They want knives worth sharpening that don't cost much. They want knives that are good enough to be their "last set," without spending too much. And they want the best knife money can buy without getting silly. 

For the first group, I recommend Forschner Rosewood.

For the second group, I try and get a sense of how invested they're going to be in sharpening and maintaining their knives, whether carbon is appropriate for some of their knives, and whether they'll ever learn to use a knife well enough to build a set around a 10" chef's. If they're amenable to carbon, I like to recommend the Hiromoto HC line from Japanese Chef's Knife, Warther, and Sabatier Elephant or K carbons. If they want stainless, I recommend Mac, Sabatier Elephant "French Style" stainless, or Furi Coppertail, and if those are too expensive, it's back to Forschner Rosewood. 

For the third group, I recommend Sabatiers -- antique and carbon if possible, Glestain, Hiromoto AS, Ryusen Blazen, Misono UX-10, and Misono Swedish Steel (love those engravings). People with small hands can fall in love with Globals. 

Generally I recommend that people choose European style boning knives over Japanese garasuke and hanasuke. The Japanese knives are really designed for different tasks and have a tendency to take little slivers of bone when you're boning out large cuts. I also recommend that people buy a few specialty knives for things they only do once in a while, rather than making do with an unsuitable tool especially if the task might hurt the cook or the knife. This includes knives like sheeps-foot parers, tournee knives, cimiters, lobster crackers, salmon slicers, etc. Again, I usually suggest Forschner Rosewoods. Oh yeah, and Furi as bread knives for serious bakers.

My experience with most folks who can afford good knives is that their first purchase should be a Chef's Choice electric sharpener. While they're often willing to learn to use the knife, that willingness doesn't extend to a set of stones. My experience with cooking at other people's homes -- something I used to do professionally too, and something I still do socially -- is that the sharpest knife in the house is a steak knife because they can't or won't sharpen. 

I've had wonderful luck with the "Nogent" style Sabatiers. It's kind of an interesting story. There are a couple of versions floating around. In the nineties, Thiers-Issard ("Elephant") Sabatier announced they'd found a cache of pre-WWII blanks in several of their warehouses. They've given a couple of versions of how these blanks came to be lost, then found. My speculation is that they were hoarding steel to keep it from the Germans during the war, then to keep it from the tax-man. Eventually, since it was off the books, it was just forgotten. Whatever. Once you reset them to 15 deg, they take a great edge. While the steel may not be as hard as modern Japanese steels, it's 56 - 58 HRC and hard enough to hold a decent edge for a month or so of household use. They have a wonderful, old time look with real ebony handles. But their outstanding characteristic is the way they handle. They're light, they're agile and they're the most comfortable knives I've ever used. 

BDL


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## tombrown

What I gather from this is everyone likes a radically different knife- it's troubling as a buying guide.

I am thinking about getting a knife, as I think I am past the point of being a beginner. I am only 17, but I've been in the kitchen for 6 months and my knife technique is no longer scary to watch. I have some well-educated coworkers in the kitchen with me, and they are teaching me how to do things the proper way (I'm the collective apprentice/little brother of the kitchen). My job entails a lot of prep, julienning veg and calamari being the more problem-y areas knife wise, general cutting, and I find it very hard using the public knives, which are all very dull. I need a knife that is agile but not to my detriment, but I don't want to go spending a months pay on it- I read this entire thread and I'm so confused- there are tens of well thought out opinions and people who clearly have tried out everything and decided on what they like, but they are not me, so I am very torn. My hands are big, I pinch, and I don't like Global. Based on the presented facts, if you were to suggest something to the cute pathetic little prep/line boy, as a first knife, what would you tell him (me) to get?


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## boar_d_laze

Young Padwan, 

Your knife is only as good as your sharpening regimen. No knife will remain sharp more than a week under the kind of abuse a prep cook dishes out. Where I started, you'd be lucky if your edge lasted two days. Start with the dull knives in your kitchen and get very good at sharpening before buying a new one. 

Best no BS knife for a prep cook? Easy. MAC. 

If you can't afford a MAC, one of the commercial Forschners -- either Rosewood or Fibrox. I prefer the Rosewood handles, but they're no longer "legal" for commercial kitchens. The rap on these is they sharpen easily but dull quickly. If you stay in the game, you'll outgrow the Forschner chef's, but not their specialty knives. 

You may decide you want something more upscale, but you'll never outgrow the MAC. 

If you don't have your own, borrow a coarse and medium stone and "relieve" the spine angles on your new knife so the spine doesn't cut into the index finger of your cutting hand. Bevel the first 2" from the handle from 90 to 45 deg, and it'll make a world of difference. Better still is to do it with a Dremel.

BDL


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## brooklynchef

Mac, or Togiharu - here is the link to korin.
Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives


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## crimsonmist308

i agree that MAC is a no brainer!
i have had about a dozen of them and none of them have ever 
let me down. it is amazing what even the standard MAC will do,
the rounded tips have saved me many times when i inadvertently
"poked" myself with the tip and didn't let out any blood.
the MACs also have almost the "alton's angle" to the grip, a 
slightly upswept handle that helps keep the knuckles off the 
cutting board.
the blades are thin, hard, sharp, and stay sharp with a few swipes 
of a ceramic stick.
my favorite models to pick from (i own them all) for all around
blade is the SA70, HB85, and the sushi chef (a chef knife styled
blade with the teflon coating).


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## allwellbeing

Very informative thread :look:


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## saltydog

I'm a new guy around here and also a bit of a knife nut. I'll reserve my comments until I have a few posts under my belt. I will say it's interesting hearing thoughts from professional users. Much differant than home users.

P.S. Togiharu is sold under a few different names. You can find it for less than at Korin. (Although that is where I bought mine)


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## yankchef

In regards to Tombrown...

I am a young chef as well and am going to be graduating from my fourth year of culinary school this may so I have a decent perspective on where you are and what you want because I was basically in your same position at about the same age that you are now. What you must first understand is that knowing how to use the knife and how to properly take care of and sharpen it are more important than the knife itself... There is no end all knife that solves all knife problems without those aforementioned skills the knife is worthless.

So learn how to sharpen!!! wwhetstones are where you will end up so I recommend learning how to use one ASAP, it will truly benefit you in your career and learn about steeling a knife which I am not going to get into now because it really gets nitpicky. Some purists will say that you should never use a honing steel blah blah that is up to you to decide. 

Back to what you're original inquiry of looking for a good first knife if you have not already purchased one. I would have to recommend something that is sharpened 50/50 and if price is a real issue get a Tojiro DP for 50 bucks at Korin for the 210mm or 60 bucks for the 240mm. For the money it has to be the best knife out there. Mac is always good as bdlz suggested. Global, Wustohf, Shun etc... are decent knives but overpriced in my opinion . The knife I got at your age was a kitchen aid knife and I have learned to use and sharpen with that which as I said is the most important. Wusthof is a great knife to learn with as well although a bit pricey... I would say check ebay and if you can find a cheap wusthof cheap buy one otherwise get a mac or Tojiro DP and you will not be dissapointed. Also Japenesechefknife.com has a few cheap knife lines that would solid choices.


O by the way Boar d Laze i ended up getting that Handamerican borosilicate steel and it is very nice! It has been great success at my kitchen work place! thanks for the recommendation man


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## saltydog

Take a look at the Chroma line. I like my chef's knife. Sturdy, decent blade, comfortable handle. Interesting design.


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## vinmachine

i have had my set of wusthofs for bout five years and i will change from them.i have tried macs but the steel is so soft it wears down quick meanin you have to replace your knifes bout every year . wusthof all the way:chef:


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## boar_d_laze

To each their own. I admire the fit and finish on the better Wusthof's -- which is as good as any mass produced knife I've ever seen, and better than most. I like their handles too. But at the end of the day it's a heavy knife with an awkward shape, that takes an edge with some difficulty and loses it comparatively quickly.

The comment about soft steel is interesting, in that the softest MACs, the Original and Chef's series, have a Rockwell hardness of 58, the same as the hardest Wusties (LCB, and Ikon) made from the European steel X50CrMoV. They are harder than Wusthof Classic or Culinair (56 - 57) which are made from X45CrMoV. Of course, the low end MAC's are made thinner and so may (or may not) wear quicker, but they are so much cheaper than the top of the line Wusthofs.

Although I've handled and sharpened a few, I've never owned a low end MAC, or talked about longevity with anyone who has worked with one. My experience with them is they hold an edge much better than any X45CrMoV knife, and need less frequent sharpening. I'm surprised to hear that you're getting significantly more longevity out of your Wusties. I've got a little more experience with the MAC Professional line, which has a Rockwell hardness of 60. As far as I know, they don't wear quickly at all -- in fact slower than any mass produced European knife, and properly sharpened and maintained, they hold an edge far longer than the Euros. These knives are heavier than the cheaper, stamped MACs; but they're feathers compared to any Wustie, even an LCB.

I know a lot of pros who could wear down anything in a year because of how and how often they sharpen. For instance some use diamond steels several times a day and others don't steel at all, but go straight to an India stone. Still, I'm surprised you're wearing MACs so much quicker than Wusthofs. I'd be interested to know how and how often you sharpen, and how, how often, and with what you steel.

Rate of wear may be very important to you, it's certainly a valid consideration. My priorities are shape, edge taking, balance point, handle comfort, weight and edge holding. Given that there are a wide variety of French profile knives (including nearly all Japanese cook's knives), better able to take a sharp edge, appropriately balanced, as comfortable and significantly lighter than any Wusthof -- that pretty much leaves Wusthof out. (Although, of all the mass produced German profiles, I think the Wusthof LCB is one of the very best, and Ikon ain't too shabby either. Credit where credit is due.)

I don't have any brand loyalty to MAC. All of the knives in my block and on my bar -- except for the bread knife and my wife's paring knife -- are carbon Sabatiers of some vintage. Which, by the way, I wouldn't recommend to anyone who wasn't already a carbon convert or darn near. However, I have and do handle a lot of knives and think that, according to my criteria anyway, MAC is a lot of bang for the buck for both the pro and the home cook.

BDL


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## crimsonmist308

when i was in college back in 73/74, i saved my ducats and bought
my first MAC, the 9" "carving" model, which i used to cut everything
for the year i lived in the on-campus apartments. i never had to do
anything more than a few swipes on a ceramic stick to get it sharp 
enough for anything i had to cut, from the freshest tomatoes to the
stringiest tri-tips and skirt steaks.
now, in 2008, i have STILL not have to ever have used more than a 
ceramic stick to keep the edge on that knife, that is why i have bought
so many other MACs, (maybe twelve of them?), from the superior
series, to a couple from their japanese pro series, the sushi chef
model (the teflon coated chef's knife), the mini-santoku ... just
a bunch, and none of them have ever met a stone.

i have not have had that kind of lasting sharpness from my wusthofs
and can't understand people feeling so impressed with their sharpness.
the blades are thick and wedgy, and for it being a softer steel i find
them harder to sharpen, taking more time to achieve an edge than 
a similar size and shape tojiro dp (which are terrific knives, sharper
than wusthofs, while feeling similar and costing less).

in fact, the only knives i own (over 200!) that are harder to sharpen are 
those cheap carbon steel knives from "old hickory".

go figger.


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## littlechef0222

I own all Wusthof! I sware by them. I just bought the Santuko in March, now I use that all the time. It is a perfect knife. But thats me, you must go in and try it, feel it, how much control you have etc..... It really is simply personal choice! Good Luck


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## cookingangry

I haven't seen or heard of any pros using santokus in commercial kitchens but I completely agree, what works for you is what works for you. I take a good deal of flack for using all carbon. But I am in the midwest where shun is the most exotic it gets for most people.

Where do you work littlechef?


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## boar_d_laze

For you it's the control? Are you M of F? Do you have small hands or large? Do you pinch grip?

I've tried several of the Wusthof santokus and none of them do anything for me. But I'm very much not the issue. You and your wonderful enthusiasm are far more interesting. 

Thanks for allowing me to follow up,
BDL


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## littlechef0222

Yes, I am very little! That is why I feel this knife works so well. I felt it was built just for me. I am a women and only 98lbs standing 5.4.Knives before were to big, bulky etc.. and I had a hard time with knife skills, but I found this one and PERFECTION! So I was glad to see that finally there was a piece on equipment I can finally handle well! Things in this industry were not made for little people. Granted I try and succeed like ****, but sometime I do strugle! LOL. Thanks for the reply!


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## cookingangry

Perhaps a recomendation to small handed cooks for santokus will find its way into your book BDL?


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## adamm

i used to use all wusthofs(still have them) I have two japanese knives, guess which knives i used 95 % of the times...The Japanese. There not ever that hight qualitly. While i see where wusthofs have there place in kitchen they compare nothing to japanese steel . If you need and edge that last buy a japanse. btw i used to be a believer in wusthofs and german knives look at the begining of this post, The first time i used my sharpend japanese i changed. Im now a believer.


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## boar_d_laze

Great question, to which the answer is "yes." That's why I'm asking so many questions. Santokus are selling very well with woman and the reasons are better than "Rachel Ray uses one." Rachel Ray being the usual explanation from knife geeks and men in general.

I'm still trying to find out if people with small hands who "pinch" large knives find a santoku to be as much of an improvement as people do who are more intuitive than technical. At this point I;m playing with the idea that the choice for the go-to knife for most people is between a 10" chef's and a 7" santoku rather than between a 10" and 8" chef's. 

BDL


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## cookingangry

Whoa, wo, wo, wo, wo. Easy there tiger. Let's not loose perspective. A santoku would all but eliminate the proficiency that proper blade technique provides while in a pro kitchen. Maybe the suggestion could be for home cooks to consider santokus. But then again, littlechef just said she goes to work with one so anything goes.

The 8" still has its place on small boards on the line though. imho 

Looking forward to reading the book, do you have a publisher?


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## littlechef0222

Ok, like I said it is a matter of personal choice. I am not a home cook, I am not Rachael Ray (frankly she really bothers me). All my knives are in my office at work but I find myself picking up my santoku ad my boning knife the most. I have not used my chef knife since March. Please boys do not imply anything that my knife choice is only because I am female or Rachael Ray, I can still cook with the best regardless of my taste in knives. Again IT IS MY CHOICE, the one that allows me to do my work the best. In the end that is the point not whose knife is bigger! So I still stand with my original comment, GET THE KNIFE that YOU FEEL is the BEST, only you can decide that.


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## adamm

The sous chef at my work uses a 5in santoku and a 6 in slicing knife pretty much the whole time, they buy ALOT of stuff precut so having a small knife isnt an issue. Right now im the only person in the kitchen that uses a knife over 10 in daily.


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## crimsonmist308

santokus are rarely found to be longer than seven inches and i am
used to having longer blades. to "cure" that "problem", i had a
an eight inch santoku made by cutting down a ten inch chef's knife
to eight inches. I bought a ten inch forschner vibrox chef's knife
and i had mike over at perfect edge cutlery in san mateo, california,
round off the tip making it into an eight inch santoku.
it is amazing how much better that extra inch feels!
i have since done the same to a ten inch MAC, a couple of ten inch 
dexter sani-safes, a ten inch boker arbolito, a ten inch f.dick pro series,
and even an 8" x 3" dexter chinese cleaver, making it an extra wide
santoku ... amazing how many people i show this to want one!


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## cookingangry

Littlechef, I didn't mean to offend. I fully believe in personal preference and you could probably cook me under the table. That said, my comments lean toward the opinion that santokus don't make for optimum output. They aren't curved enough for fast rocking on larger products. They aren't long enough for efficient slicing and they aren't balanced for rapid chopping like a usuba or nikiri. 

But if an 8 inch gyuto/chef's knife is too big, a nikiri/usuba too awkward, and a slicer/yanagi not versatile enough, then the santoku is your best bet.


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## boar_d_laze

Angry, 

On a personal note, I actually get fair use from a 7" (French profile) chef's which I enjoy a great deal. I use it as a petty that can chop. It sees action with small things in small quantities -- or sometimes just as a petty because I feel like it. 

I agree on the 8" for small boards -- in fact, I'd say that's its highest calling. Otherwise, it's a length that's neither here nor there, as far as I'm concerned. Too long to double as a petty, too short to section the blade into sections for multiple purposes; and, in the German profile, too curved to draw a slicing motion across the board. This would all be a lot more meaningful if it weren't for the fact that tastes vary. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze

Littlechef,

You've helped a lot by letting me know how and why your santoku has become your instinctive choice for most tasks. Also, in case there is some misunderstanding, I said that "Rachel Ray" is NOT the reason santokus are so popular with women. In fact, the idea is sexist. 

I believe their popularity (santokus not sexists) is a combination of belly geometry, point shape, knife length, hand size, and cook's height. To be more specific on belly geometry -- santokus are a lot flatter than the popular German profile chef's knives, especially 8" chef's knives. The sheep's foot point makes straight slicing easier, on the draw stroke, and facilitates two-handed "rock-chopping." And, to be more specific with cook's height, it relates to the angle of perspective at which you look over your knife. Also, with less experienced users I feel the raised heel makes it easier to keep knuckles off the board, and the rounded point is less intimidating. None of this relates specifically to women in any way except that women tend to be shorter than men, and have smaller palms with proportionally longer fingers. For instance, shorter cooks see a knife of given length as longer than taller cooks do. 

I'd appreciate any comments you have regarding my thoughts, and still have one question if you'd care to answer it. That is, do you use the pinch grip for chopping?

Thanks for your input so far. It's golden.
BDLli


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## boar_d_laze

Crimson,

I get the point you really like the santoku shape, and you appreciate a little extra length. 

The Forschner Fibrox, F. Dick, and Sani-safes would still have a fairly pronounced belly curve, wouldn't they?

The Arbolito... what a kick. 

I'd really like to hear about what it is you like about the santoku shape. Is it the sheep's foot tip only? What makes you like that so much? Are there other aspects? If so, what? And more importantly, why?

Thanks in advance,
BDL


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## saltydog

I guess to emphasize "to each his own" I'll add, after cooking professionally for over 30 years and being brought up on Greman steel I use a santoku (Japanese) as much or more than any other knife. For technical applications they're great. Currently my knife of choice is is a Carter 203 Funayaki, which is similar to a santoku. In addition to that a 180mm Togiharu and a 180 Hattori KD. Both santokus. Pretty flat with almost no belly. Great for slicing proteins or vegys. ( I'm not a rocker) I probably use my 270 gyotu the least.

Hey Angry, Have I seen you over at Knife Forums?


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## cookingangry

Yeppers, that was me at KF. BDL pointed me that way and I am now an addict.


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## mannlicher

These are all my kitchen knives I could fit on the table. I have several rolled sets from my reastaurant days in the closet. 
I will always take a French style Chef knife, 8 or 10 inch, over any Santoku. Thats my preference.


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## cookingangry

Man,

You must tell me what every knife on the table is. Now. Pretty Please.


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## boar_d_laze

Tsk. You should be able to recognize them. Let's see how I do.

Top left (top to bottom): wa handled single bevel yani -- about 240mm; wa-handled deba about 180 mm; plastic handled 6" utility (or posibly flex fillet)

Top right (top to bottom): 10" cimiter (Forschner blue fibrox -- "B"); 8" breaker (B), 6" semi-stiff boning (B); Chinese-style vegetable chopper (very cheap, carbon steel, Dexter/Yan/Chen or maybe even cheaper).

Far top right: Meat cleaver.

Bottom (left to right): 12" cake/bread slicer (Forschner); 12" German profile ("GP") Chef's (probably used as a "lobster cracker" and other heavy-duty); 10" GP Chef's; 8" GP Chef's; 8" German bolster shape ("GB") slicer, 10" French Profile chef's; 8" FP chef's; 6-1/2" desosser shape ("D") fillet/boning (Lamson?); 6" GP chef's; 6" GB utility; 6" GB D boning; tomato knife (not too sure about that one, actually); 4" GB couteau office shape ("O") parer; 4" plastic handled O parer; 3" parer (I forget the name for the shape, similar to but not called a desosser, looks like it's been sharpened a lot though); 3" O parer; 3" parer (bec d'oiseau aka tourne); 180 mm usuba/nakiri; 180 mm santoku; 130 mm (?) santoku; bayonet (aka straight) cook's fork; pot/carving (aka curved) cook's fork without a pot button. 

So?

BDL


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## yorvo

Since it's show and tell I thought I'd have some fun, so I dug up my old knives. I've never been much of a tool whore so my collection is small but adequate. Sure a nicer knife may help me do my job a little easier, but a lesser knife isn't going to stop me from doing it either.

This was my bread and butter kit for years. It's all I've ever really needed. I like to travel light. I bought that Connoisseur french knife for $12.95 in 1983. That was the first knife I bought as a young salad guy. If that knife could talk. I still use it sometimes. The German stuff I've had since about 1988.



This is a kit I got few years back. A perk of being chef. It's nice and I use it but it doesn't have near the miles as the above kit. But it still has some stories I'm sure.


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## foodpump

Yeah, that photo looks quite similiar to my collection. Remember now, we eat starting with the outmost cutlery first--pot roast fork for oysters, cook`s fork for salad, and the cake knife to spread butter on the rolls, boning knife of course is used for dessert....



Still use my first knife, a 10" Henkels "Zwilling", bought over 25 years ago, it's shrunk considerably, same for the "bird's beak" turning knife, my cook's fork's tines has been straightened out a few times (had an eejit d/w who used it to break apart frzn spinach blocks once to many times...) "used to" have some nice "office'' (paring) knives, Driezack (Wusthof) I think, but they're buried in the garbage somewhere during the aspergaus season. These have been replaced by (hush now and cross your heart) Ikea stuff..well, they`re cheap and they don`t cost a fortune to replace. 

Among my "Monsters" is a Victorinox "Schlag Messer" weighing in at 820 grams (a bit under 2 lbs) with the blade almost 13`` long and 3``wide, (handle is another 5``long) it does alot of the same things a cleaver can do. I keep it in my chocolate room and use it to take out my frustrations on those 5 kg slabs of rock-hard couveture. The other is an F Dick meat pounder. This thing is massive, over 2 lbs and all cast with an offset handle, done many a schniztel and paillard with that thing.


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## saltydog

Show and tell?


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## yargg

I think I cut myself just looking at that knife salty dog.. 

anyone have opinions on ceramic knives? I've been thinking of getting one.


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## boar_d_laze

They're too fragile to be really useful on the line. Like all knives, they eventually dull, and can't easily be resharpened. For a discerning home user, it might take four months to dull. But what's that on the line? Three or four weeks? By and large they are an expensive and unreliable solution to a non-problem for anyone who can sharpen their own knife.

On the other hand, there are some relatively inexpensive Chinese ceramic knives which have moved into the market in the last few years. I've also heard, anecdotes to the proposition that ceramics can be resharpened using diamond "honing" paste, but not from anyone I trust enough to count them as "information." 

Also, my viewpoint might be clouded because my go to gyuto is much longer than the ceramics, I own quite a few good knives, am good enough at sharpening them to make them as sharp as a ceramic, and enjoy it enough that it isn't a chore (isn't that always a key?). 

Bottom line: I've never known a working pro who's been happy with a ceramic for more than a couple of months. If you can afford to fool around with something that has a lot of issues, you should. But at the current SOTA (state of the art), it's just a gimmick. As the SOTA changes, everything else may change as well. I think you're better off spending the money on a couple of Shapton GS stones, your first, really good Japanese knife, or maybe even an old, carbon steel Sabatier like mine. 

BDL


PS. I'm told there have been complaints regarding non-pros posting in this part of the forum. FWIW, I'm ex-pro, line, catering, and teaching; but don't want to change my identity to "ex-chef" because I feel the word "chef" means something I was not. Maybe Nicko can give us an "ex-chef d'partie," "ex-line slave," or "taught a few classes" classifications to select from. 


PPS. All you pros, take a look at my blog and leave some comments please. Even though the book isn't directed at you, I appreciate the perspective. Thanks, BDL


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## yargg

Thanks for the input BDL, thats what I was afraid of with them. The only pro i'd ever seen using them was Ming Tsai (but my view into the pro world involves the very small kitchen I work at where both the more trained cook and the chef use their knives from culinary school... and TV), and he seemed to have an endorsement deal, so I wasn't sure.

I think I'm going to get either a MAC or Kangetsu Pro M, sharpen up my parents old sabatier (years of no sharpening + dishwashing make for a very dull knife! I have to figure out how to sharpen off enough steel to return its point too.. they really took bad care of it!) and as far as sharpening stones, what grits would you recommend?


Thanks again,
Mike


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## boar_d_laze

Yes. He's got a deal with Kyocera, and has for ages. He also has some of the best knife technique ever. That guy can flat prep.

MAC Original, Superior and Chef, Kanetsugu, and any Sabatier can all be effectively sharpened on oil stones (as opposed to water stones). Oil stones are less expensive and far easier to maintain than waterstones. So, I think they're best for the direction you're heading in.

You're going to need to reprofile the Sabatier -- assuming it can be saved. Knives which have gone through the diswhasher frequently have such major handle issues it's not worth repairing their blades. That means having a coarse enough stone to handle that task -- but it's a surface you won't use very often. So, I hate to spend a lot on it, or waste a lot of space. The alternative is to have something just coarse enough to profile, but fine enough to use as the first sharpening surface. The equivalent of a fine Crystolon or medium India if you know Norton stones.

That you're even discussing freehand sharpening on stones indicates an interest in a well finished edge -- so you're going to want your final surface to do more polishing than sharpening. Assuming, these are good guesses, here are two recommendations.

Hall's Commercial 8" Wet Hone ($48 -- three surfaces) Commercial Knife Sharpening Stones Commercial Knife Sharpening I recommend the Commercial over the less expensive Home Tri-Hone because the Commercial stone holder can go into the dishwasher, stones and all. More about specific maintenance issues if and when you decide to use oil stones. Suffice it to say, they do need to be cleaned frequently, but don't need to be prepped ever, and only very infrequently flattened. The Norton equivalent has a better rough stone, a better box, not nearly as good a soft Arkansas, and costs double.

Four surface, mixed set: Norton 8 x 3 x 1 coarse India; Norton 8 x 3 x 1 fine India; Hall's 8 x 3 x 1 soft Arkansas; Hall's 8 x 3 x 1 black Arkansas. This is the set I use for almost everything (about $150).

Here's a different way to go...

Four surface, Japanese set: Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combi water stones. The set comes with a flattener. You'll need to add a stone holder and a nagura prep stone. (about $150, altogether). Not the best waterstones in the world, but not the worst. More polish than you need, but you can't beat the price with a good 220/ 1000/ 4000 set plus flattener -- so you might as well start here if you decide to go the waterstone route.

Most professional sharpeners will "fix" a broken tip by reprofiling the knife completely. If you're good enough to recreate the old profile, you're also good enough to know it's not worth what the customer will have to pay for your time. It's not a cheap repair, and it's important for the customer to have a very definite idea of what (s)he wants so as not to overspend. If you have somebody else do it, make sure they take off enough to form an entirely new point rather than savying the old, and tell them you don't care about retaining the old blade's shape.

If you do it yourself, the best way to take care of a broken or highly deformed tip is to create an entirely new point without trying to mimic the old geometry. And usually the best way to do that is by sharpening down from the spine, rather than up from the edge.

First create the point, by holding the spine square to the stone and slowly abrading a new tip. The farther back towards the handle the more like a "spear" and regular French profile the knife will look. The farther away, the more like a sheep's foot or santoku. There's a common Japanese profile that splits the difference -- which is what you'll probably end up with. Start grinding about 3/4 to 4/5 of the way to where the tip is going to have to be and don't worry too much about curving. Start gradually, then increase the degree of arc as you near the point (by lifting the handle).

Once you've established a point that meets healthy edge, you can start profiling it -- still from the spine until it's got a shape you like. Take your time, it's a lot of work and you won't want to go back. Then, take care of an outstanding issue you didn't even know you had. That is, round over the spine in the inch or so closest to the hande. This will make the knife a lot more comfortable to handle.

Finally, profile sharpen and polish the edge. Whatever's still left of the edge is not only dull, but probably pitted from dishwasher detergent, and wildly inappropriate for someone who can sharpen her or his own knife. If the old Sab is a carbon, I recommend a flat bevel, with 50/50 symmetry and a 15 deg edge angle (30 deg included angle). That's how I usually sharpen mine, anyway. If it's stainless, we'll take it out at about a 20 deg edge angle.

If and when you get there, I'll give you some very specific instructions for how to do the point and edge profiling, and the edge sharpening and polishing. Not to mention how to hold the proper angle consistently, and how to use and take care of your stones. Right now, I'm just trying to let you know you can do a good job of it.

BDL


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## bryanj

Let's not bicker. 

As far as knives go, when I went to CHIC/LCBP (The Cooking and Hospitality Institute of Chicago Le Cordon Bleu Program), they gave us Messermeister kits. Not good knives. Within a month I bought a 12 inch (!!!) Wustie LCB chef. Great knife. Thin blade, flexible enough to fillet, and no bolster to get in the way of sharpening. I still use it. However, I got a new job recently, and the fish guy uses this six-inch Sabatier 5-Star that is from the 60's and is all carbon, with no belly what so ever. I am in love with that knife. I found a few on Craigslist and Ebay. Now, all I use are old Sabs. Great knives.


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## smokeychef

My experience with knives are that no matter what brand you buy it will never be your last set. Good expencive knives will last a long time most likely keep their edge longer, but everyday use in the kitchen will wear them out. My advice to you being a culinary student is to go to a culinary store and handle each knife. Find the one that you like and see how well it fits your hand. Ask yourself if its comfortable can you hold it for 8,10,12,14 hours a day. Is it balanced? I myself use Le cordon bleu knives. They are not very expencive and they hold an edge, but I also recommend with the cheaper knives to hone them on a steel after every 10 minutes of constant use. not much just a couple of passes. By doing this you will keep a good edge and wont have to place your knife on a sharpener which will have you replacing it sooner. I hoped this helped you even though I didnt compare all brands and give differences between them. Remember a good knife is the one that you make your living with not the brand name.


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## boar_d_laze

Bryan and Smokey -- Were you responding to any particular posts or just doing general knife recommendation?

Nobody's bickering. It's a conversation.

The LCB line was such a wild success Wusthof's decided to discontinue it awhile ago. If you like them -- deal time if you can find them. They were very nice knives. They actually have a bolster, but it's "cut down" in the sense the finger guards are gone. If I'm not mistaken, Ikon and Classic Ikon are Wustie's only lines still featuring the cut down bolster.

AFAIK, there is no "5-star Sabatier." You presumably were momentarily confused by Henckels Five Star, and meant "**** [4-star] Sabatier." At any rate, 4-star was absorbed by Thiers-Issard Elephant Sabatier who are still making carbon knives in the same way from more or less the same steel. I have two modern Thiers-Issard **** Elephant Sabatier (_desosser_, and _couteau office_) and they're about as good as my older Sabs. Definitely recommended for someone who wants European carbon knives.

Thiers-Issard has some "New Old Stock" blades from the late twenties and early thirties which they sell as "Nogent." They used to have quite a bit, but a lot has been sold and some shapes are gone. I've got three Nogents. These are very good knives as well, although the handle which is just a block of ebony might be impractical for a modern commercial environment. With that and the European carbon caveat, again highly recommended.

Both the new Thiers Issard and the old Nogent are sold online by The Best Things. Sabatier Kitchen Knives at The Best Things

K-Sabatier still makes the same _au carbone_ knives they've been making since the late fifties. I bought my first in the early seventies, and have bought a few since. Wonderful knives. As far as I can tell the last ones I bought in 2001 are just as good as the first ones I bought. Kitchen Sabatier Knives : French cutlery from Thiers

There are a series of NOS carbon Sabatiers made in Canada which are sold by both K-Sab ("Antique") and The Best Things ("Massif"). Also great knives. Thiers Issard's story is that the knives are early 20th Century, and K-Sab says they're from the fifties. I think they're both selling the same knives, and if I had to guess, I'd guess sixties -- because I have three of them which were given to me in the early seventies by my executive chef at the Blue Fox, who'd bought them new and had them for a few years but hadn't used them -- or so he said. At any rate they were unused (and duller than snot) when i got them in '72ish.

And let's not forget Mercier et Cie and their various labels. Fantes sells them, and other places too. These are good knives, but my impression is that they roll and wave a little easier than the K-Sabs or the **** Elephants because of different surface hardening.

About half of my knives, pretty much all of the regularly used ones are new, old, vintage or antique Sabatier carbon of one sort or another. Every one of them is a great knife. That said, I never recommend carbon knives to anyone who hasn't either already expressed an interest or wants to know "everything."

They'll out perform even very good stainless steel (better than Wusthof) in almost every way. But honestly, there are better knives for the price. Setting aside my emotional commitment to the knives I learned on, and their historical interest -- if I had to buy again, I'd still buy carbon but I wouldn't buy Sabatier, I'd buy Kikuichi Elite, Togiharu, or Masmaoto HC (first choice, but more expesnive).

One of the advantages in good carbon steel, and Sabatier in particular is how easily they sharpen to a great edge. That said, the prospective buyer should beware that most "new" and almost every "old" Sabatier is going to come to you needing quite a bit of work to get that edge. If sharpening isn't your thing, a carbon Sab is probably the wrong knife for you. Buy something that's sharp out of the box, and won't break your heart when it gets scratched up by your pull through sharpener or the service you take it too. In other words, don't worry about buying the best knife -- try and find the best knife for you.

Anyway, to keep some perspective, all of the knives mentioned are very good and the performance differences are very slight. I think carbon steel is generally a better choice for a cook who really enjoys knife work and doesn't work in an environment where the benefits of the steel outweigh the extra care required. But it's just an opinion, it's not like I read it off of stone tablets.

BDL


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## smokeychef

Smokey -- Were you responding to any particular posts or just doing general knife recommendation?

I was just responding to the original posted thread. There are people way more qualified to reccommend knives than myself. I was just giving a little advice on choosing a knife.


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## boar_d_laze

Solid advice, IMO.

BDL


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## bryanj

Yeah, you're right I was slightly confused. I was just continuing the knife advice by offering my experience. That's all.


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## rambo

I'm looking for suggestions on good serrated knives- not necessarily a bread knife, more of like a 8" utility knife with an offeset handle. I've used a Forschener, which an old chef swore by, but it dulls and it's not worth sharpening. He suggested throwing it out and buying a new one ( they're less than $20), but it seems like a waste of a good knife and $20 every year or so. Any suggestions on models and manufacturers would be appriciated.


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## adamm

i have a 8 in off set henkels that i found at a marshells for 20 dollars. i have the straight handle version too. both good knives, i dont really use serrated knives that much so they dont get that much of a workout. i have seen shuns with the off set handle but there around 80 or 90 dollars. personaly for a pro kitchen i would go by what you chef says use it till it dull then toss it. unless your doing alot of bread and need serrated then i would go with the 10 in mac bread knife. and i can cut anything better else better with a non serrated edge so...


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## crimsonmist308

i always thought the offset serrated knife felt better than the
straight serrated knife. my preference.

that said, you might be able to try the dexter-russell 9" offset
serrated knife. the softgrip model is very comfortable for long
sessions of slicing stuff. doesn't cost much either.

funny how dexter-russell knives show up in more commercial 
kitchens that almost any other brand but nobody seems to 
recommend them? cheap enough, light enough, sharp enough,
comfortable enough ... great for learning knife skills before
going on to something else.

anyone who has read "kitchen confidential" by anthony bourdain
MUST have come across his mentioning a 7" offset serrated knife
by f. dick from their "pro-dynamic" series. i bought one, then also
the 9" model of the same knife. then a similar offset model by icel.

either of these three models are sleeker than the dexter-russell
which seems massive by comparison. all four knives cut cleanly,
stay sharp for quite a while and are cheap enough to own.
(they must be ... i was able to buy them all myself!)

anyway ... my two cents.


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## adamm

people dont mention them because there straight edge knives suck. dont know what kind of steel is used in a dexter but iv never seen a sharp straight edge knife. There serrated is ok but thats about it. forchners are lots better for the money and the low end japanses for a few dollar more blow forchners out of the water.


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## crimsonmist308

it simply seems illogical to me that if the dexters suck that badly,
they wouldn't be showing up in all those commercial kitchens as
often as they do.

granted, forschners often are a better choice, but then again, 
dexters are not the slouches you say the are either!

i own a set of fourteen fibrox forschners and also a set of twelve 
sani-safe dexters (among other knives) and i take the dexters
when i go to public places where things seem to "walk off".
i have never had a problem with dexters being sharp enough to
do the job at hand, although they certainly don't hold an edge
over my hand beaten japanese ao-ki blue steel knives.

HOWEVER! for a beginner looking for something a little better
for little money, to me it makes more sense to get dexters
(or forschners, or boker arbolitos) and get a few extra shapes 
to work with and cheap enough to practice sharpening skills.
after all, if you don't know how to sharpen properly, would you
REEEEAAALLLY want to practice on a new $120 wusthof 10" chef
knife or a $28 dexter??


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## adamm

why no use a 10 in wusthof, you have to learn some how to sharpen. if you learning how to sharpen and you mess up you just start over and learn from your mistakes your not going to ruin the blade. you couldnt mess up a wusthof unless you grind it down on a belt sander or try an reforge it somthing which would be stupid. now i dont think a wusthof is the best knife in the world but it beats the dexter. if your using japanese blue steel knives and why would you still you a dexter, knives only walk off if you leave them lie around plus i would never work in a place that theres a chance of a knife walking off. if theres someone shaddy i would just keep a closer eye on my stuff and make sure all my stuff is in place before every one leaves. 

btw you can get wusthies for about 60 to 70 buck on ebay, i would never pay retail on a german knife.


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## crimsonmist308

===== seems i don't like german knives either. sold all of my
wusthofs except for one and bought all japanese and chinese
knives.

i have read many many many posts on knives on this website and so
many seem to think you can only own one or two knives. heck ...
most people i know own lots of different clothes (casual, dress, sport,
formal, etc.), lots of different hammers (tack, claw, ball peen),
and my wife (bless her heart!) owns 19 pairs of black shoes!
different things for different reasons!

all i am saying is ... variety is the spice of life! get a couple of
good but cheap knives, some nice but more expensive knives,
and maybe one killer sweet knife. if you want to learn how to sharpen
a knife on a good knife, fine, but i just think it is more prudent to
learn on a cheaper knife.


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## coregonus

Folllowing the thread (and enjoying it) I spotted Henckels Ad popping up on new page sometimes. That brings my memories back.. Henckels were predominant by number at most kitchen I've seen as well as on Ebay recently. Chefs most often suggested them to students and starters. You could leave them behind and nobody would steal them because everybody around had them already :lol:
They did pretty good job too. Now I wonder if anybody else noticed steel imperfections in knifes that been around last 5-6 years? I seen it a lot, even started checking around for more - and it was more. Mostly it was cavities or impurities that surfase when you sharpen knifes constantly. Edge often crumbled if you go near 20 degree bevel. 
That was happening to virtually every line, 4 stars, Classic, TwinSelect, ProS, 5 star, old ones, new ones, Friodur or others. I'm pretty sure it's not in Cermax now but what that makes you think of? Dawn of brand? Imported ingredients? "Too many Hyundais recycled into european steel industry lately" as one jokes?
Ideas?


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## cookingangry

What is going on is people are trying to imitate their japanese knife weilding friends and sharpen at more accute angles. The soft and mediocre quality of steel from Solingen isn't holding up. It doesn't make sense in some ways though. America has the propensity to make high level kitchen knives. Warthers are hard 58-60 hrc and a few custom makers make good knives, Butch harner is making me a custom carbon blade from O1 steel. For some reason the germans are still using outdated stainless that says high carbon but is aproximately 60% of what others designate as high carbon. 

I would say they are saving money but the steel they use isn't cheap, it's just of a lower quality. They must divert all the money from R&D to Ad and PR.


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## 156current

I'm looking to buy a new knife now that I'm in culinary school. The knives they give us are ok at best, and I am kind of obsessed with having a really sharp edge on my knife all the time.

Santoku style knives are what I use the most, and what I'm currently looking for. I found a 170 mm HD-5 Santoku by Hattori for $135 on japanesechefsknife.com. It's a high-carbon VG-10 core blade at 60-61 HRC, so I'm thinking that it will be a good choice for me.

It's also a beautiful blade.

Any thoughts?* H*


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## boar_d_laze

Sharp is a good thing. The first thing you should do is learn to sharpen. That said, there's a limit to how sharp you can get and keep the type of knives most schools have (or sell) for their students.

Personally, I don't care for santokus in a professional environment unless you're working on a very, very small board. You'll get a lot more production out of a 10" chef's (either 24cm or 27cm) than a santoku; plus as a student you'll have the opportunity to learn to use a chef's without the pressure "learn while you earn" puts you under. 

Additionally, a santoku is something of a "girl's knife," and the reputation is one more unnecessary thing to deal with -- even (or maybe especially) if you are a girl. 

Bottom line: To each his or her own. If a santoku makes a big difference in your productivity, a santoku you should use.

Really bad choice for a school knife because it's way too nice. The fake damascus on the outside will get absolutely trashed in no time; worse, the odds of the knife being stolen are ridiculously high. You understand there's a reason you don't wear your best clothes to play footbal, right? 

The most obvious school choices are lower-mid level knives like the Fujiwara FKC, MAC Superior, Misono Moly, and the Togiharu Inox. You can take any of these to a level of sharpness far beyond a typical school knife. The edges can be maintained on a steel, too.

The next step up, if you're committed to spending the money, is something like a MAC Pro. Although it's a bit on the homely side (in my opinion), it's very robust and about the stiffest Japanese knife you can buy. It's among the best choices for a work environment and for someone coming off western knives. You'll have to keep a pretty close eye on it though. There are a number of other excellent choices in a similar price range, like the Masamoto VG (Cook's Illustrated No. 1 at the price), and the Togiharu G-1 (almost a clone of the Masamoto, almost; but cheaper).

It doesn't matter what brand you buy, it's worth repeating that if you want a truly sharp knife you'll either have to learn to sharpen yourself, or develop a plan in which someone does it for you. The way students flog their knives, figure a week tops before it's got to go to the stones. On top of that, Japanese knives often come with mediocre edges from the factory. Sharpening is something you want settled before buying the knife.

BDL


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## 156current

I've been cooking (not professionally, but very seriously) for over ten years now, and for the most part I've used a 24 cm chef's knife; I first tried a santoku about four years ago, and fell in love with the shape immediately.
It's a really small school, I always keep a close eye on my knives, and I have a locker where I lock up my tools at the end of the day, so I'm not worried about it being stolen, really. Also, I'll probably be bringing it home with me every day, so I can use it at home too. So that's pretty much a moot point. Besides, I'm a pretty big and intimidating guy when I want to be, and people know not to touch my tools. 
I should probably have phrased it differently. I'm not buying a knife to use just when I'm in school, but when I'm at home too. Price really isn't that much of an issue; I'm prepared to pay anything up to $250 for a decent knife made from good, hard steel. I just thought that $135 for a Hattori was a really good deal.


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## boar_d_laze

Not a good deal at all -- just retail. JCK sells them $122.50, and charges less for shipping than almost any e-bay vendor. 

Hattori HD is a nice knife series, but -- trust me on this -- the "damascus" (suminagashi actually) pattern will not stand up to hard use. Better than Shun's, yes; but still not very good. 

Considering your price range, there are better knives. If you want a VG-10 santoku, take a look at the Togiharu G-1 from Korin. It's not as pretty as the Hattori, but it's more knife. You might also want to think about the Hattori FH. Expensive for VG-10, but about as nice as mass produced knives get. Again -- significantly more knife than an HD.


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## 156current

Alright, thank you very much, I'll take a look at those knives. 

EDIT: Wow, $221 for the VG-10 FH-4 Santoku, and a very classy looking blade it is too. I think I just found my knife, especially considering the dollar exchange rates these days. If I order it online, with shipping and all I'll still be paying at least $50 less than I would in a store here in Sweden, for a similiar knife.


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## jdmars02

website: http://www.warthercutlery.com

sharpen: these knives have a convex grind. use the following @ a 20 degree angle to sharpener on each bevel
(light hone..brings back razor sharp edge): 
The 10" Diamond Knife Sharpener is perfect for a quick and easy razor sharp edge on your knife.


The 10" length will sharpen any size knife, long or short.
Below are the specifications on the most awesome cutlery knives. They are not German nor Japanese made knives.They are the highest quality at a fair price. Hand made in the USofA! 
100% American Made:
Warther knives use all American made materials and make all their kitchen knives at a plant in Dover, OH. Warther does not outsource any work overseas! Anyone is welcome to stop in and visit the plant in Dover, OH for a tour of the knife shop, where you can watch the knife making firsthand.

Knife Making:
Ernest "Mooney" Warther began making knives in 1902 because he couldn't find a knife that would stay sharp while carving hard materials like walnut, bone and
ivory. He researched what was the best steel to use and he created his own techniques for grinding the steel blade so it would keep its sharp edge. Warther's still use the same specifications and techniques Mooney created. Combining these techniques with today's steel, Warther's is able to create a superior quality knife.

Steel:
American made high carbon tool steel that is rust resistant. The steel is hand-rolled on an old-style hand-operated mill. This type of steel allows them to temper it to a high degree of hardness (58 - 60 Rockwell C) without being brittle. Other qualities of the tool steel include the ability to stay sharp, keep its polished finish, and remain highly rust resistant.

Grind and Polish: (Warther trademarks)
They grind and polish each knife to a convex grind, which can only be accomplished by hand - no automated machinery is used. The purpose of the convex grind is its ability to retain a razor-like edge with just a light honing. This method was common in the early 1900's but has been lost by most knife manufacturers today.

"Spotting":
When Mooney started making knives, he wanted a finish that would not show wear. So he came up with the idea of "spotting" the blade. The more formal term for this process is "Engine Turning". It creates a fine swirl design on the blade by grinding a concentric circle pattern on the surface. The "spotting" is smooth to the touch, makes the knife look newer longer, and gives the knife a distinctive look. This tooling design is created
by hand and has become a Warther registered trademark.

Handles:
Knife handles are made from Vermont birch wood which is treated in a resin to make it more durable than regular wood. Note: The natural birch wood does vary in color. The handles are riveted onto the blade at two points. The blade extends all the way through the handle creating a strong and balanced knife. After riveting, the handles are sanded and buffed to a smooth and lustrous finish.

God Bless The United States of America and Warther's Cutlery.


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## boar_d_laze

I get that you're enthusiastic but it would be helpful to have something more specific than ad copy from Warther's online catalog.  

Warther makes very good knives for the price, but they fall short of perfect.  

The whole thing about the convex edge grind is overblown, inaccurate and somewhat misleading.  There is more than one mass produced, line of convex beveled, kitchen knives in the marketplace.  Convex beveling is not a lost art -- in fact it's something of an automatic consequence of using a flat belt.  Many modern sharpeners create and maintain convex bevels by using something called "the mousepad trick."

Convex edges don't deform as easily as flat bevels, but eventually need maintenance.  Unfortunately the most common maintenance technique "steeling" on a rod hone, flattens the convexity.  Convex edges wear (dull) just as quickly as any other edge geometry, and need regular sharpeneing.  Even though there are techniques for an end user to sharpen a convex bevel -- very few of us use them; and very few of us have the time or patience to send a knife to the factory and wait for its return to be sharpened -- not four times a year, anyway.  

Since the knives will end up with whatever bevel we give them the value of a factory convex edge is very limited.          

Considering the nature and quality of the blade alloy a 20* edge angle is a something of a waste of time.  A 15* flat bevel (on both sides, obviously) would be a lot better.  A 15* over a 10* double bevel would be more like it; as would a 20*/10* "micro-bevel."

BDL


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## Guest

I thought I might throw two cents into the pot here for a first post. I've been cooking seriously at home for about 10 years and am enrolled in my local tech school's culinary program where I guess I would be labeled a second year. My previous career was in metal casting and I have a BS in metallurgical engineering. My perspective on knives may be a little different than everyone else's since I approach it from a metal and engineering view rather than a culinary view. Probably not right but some things I just can't shake.

In my opinion, a forged knife is hands down the best knife, ignoring brands, styles, size, etc. Of the forged knives I am a big fan of pattern welded steel often erroneously referred to as Damascus steel. Forging gives a knife wonderful strength, elasticity and crystal alignment that can't be done by stamping. The advantage of a pattern welded knife is that two or more different metals are forged together. At a microscopic level this gives a serrated edge with wonderful sharpness that in a sense re-sharpens itself as the edge wears since the different metals wear at different rates. My third favorite knife and quickly becoming my number one favorite is the sintered powder metal knife. Like the pattern welded knife it creates a microscopic serrated edge as it wears so it is brilliantly sharp. The fact that it is sintered allows for the use of some higher tech metals that are not available any other way.

I am opposed to buying a knife kit as I believe in buying the best knife for the job that is in my budget. My first knife was a Lamson-Sharp 10" Chef's Knife. GREAT knife. My only regret is that is isn't longer, but I didn't know that at the time. It's forged and made in the US. It didn't really come into its own until I began sharpening it myself with my two sided water stone and put a slightly narrower angle of edge on it. I use this knife every day in school and at home.

My second knife was a Nenohi Nenox G-Type Petty 5.9" (15cm) as I wanted to try one of the Japanese knives. This is a PM made knife and has an edge that boggles my mind. Some days I use this knife more than my chef's knife because it cuts so well and feels so good I don't want to put it down. This Japanese knife is a little harder to sharpen but once you get your technique down, it isn't a problem. One thing I learned from both of these knives is that sharpening them yourself will give you a better, sharper edge that lasts longer than what you got out of the box.

Third knife was a Ittosai Stain-Resistant Layered Steel Santoku 6.4" (16.5cm) as I wanted to try this new to me style and it was a pattern welded knife I could afford. Great knife but not as good as the other two. I really have not bonded well with this style but if I want to cut thin slices of onion, tomato or potatoes, this is a good one to use. But it normally stays at home rather than at school. Sharpness and edge retention is in between the Lamson and the Nenohi.

Next knife was a Glestain salmon slicer. I rarely use or require this knife but when I do, there is nothing better. Very sharp out of the box and I have not sharpened it yet. I am a little nervous about sharpening a 12" blade. Not sure as a culinary student when or if you would need to purchase one of these, definitely not at my school. It was a celebratory reward for myself.

Last knife I bought was a Misono Hankotsu for ripping up chickens. This was my first venture into single sided Japanese knives. This is a very heavy and menacing looking knife. Makes me feel like I should join the French Foreign Legion. While the edge out of the box is sharp, it isn't very good. It is not consistently sharp along the length of the edge. As before I think that sharpening this knife myself will get the maximum performance out of it. I just have not done it yet. I have to watch my DVD on sharpening first since I have never sharpened a single sided knife before.

For honing I use an F.Dick flat multi cut steel and highly recommend it. I don't do the razzle dazzle knife honing routine that every cook does. I think it is BS. I slowly pull the knife, at the proper angle, along the full length of the knife across the steel. After each pass I feel for a burr with my fingernail. If the burr moves to the other side then I hone that side. If I don't feel a burr on either side I don't bother honing the knife. I can usually hone a knife with three or four slow passes, though a knife that was used hard may need a few more. I hone them in the morning and then forget about it.

My recommendation for a first time purchase is to buy a good but not great nor cheap chef's knife, middle of the road. In my opinion, hands down, the Japanese steel is superior. But there is nothing wrong with the other's either. I highly recommend Lamson Sharp. Wustoff and Henckels are good too, but I would be sure they are forged. I have not been impressed with Dexter. Messermeister is better than Dexter. Regardless, this is a learning knife to learn technique, beat on, mess up sharpening, break the tips, etc. You won't be out much. Even an old Chicago knife is a good starter. Stay away from the cheap stamped Chinese crap. I don't like metal handles like Global but I think that is more of an individual preference, they are good knives. Buy a good steel and learn to use it. Buy at least a two sided stone and learn to use it, especially correct edge angle. I don't like oil at all but that is probably a personal preference. Do not ever ever ever rely on or use one of those pull sharpeners like fishermen use or an electric sharpener. Nothing will ruin your knife faster.

All the above is strictly my opinion as a metallurgist and culinary student but I hope it is helpful to someone.

Thanks,

-AJ


----------



## rageahol

Hi,

All of this information is really fantastic. I'm a home cook, not a chef, but i'm trying to figure out what I value and prefer in a knife.

I currently have an 8" global chef's, because it was on sale and i liked how it looked, frankly. but lately it just feels too small. I'm cooking a lot more at home, cutting up chickens more frequently, and i just want more knife. I tend to use the chef's for most tasks, though I have a couple forschners for stuff like boning and paring.

i have really big hands, and i pinch grip. the global now seems better suited to my wife, who is smaller than me, and enjoys the global.

I really like how the global has kept its edge though. i've had it sharpened professionally a few times in the 2 years ive had it, but i've decided that i need to learn how to maintain my own knives. i've bought a 1000/6000 waterstone, a fine ceramic steel, and some guides, and have done a bit of reading, planning on making a weekend event of going through the knife drawer.

but once i get those skills down, i definitely want a 10" chefs. I'm not averse to going with a mac pro, but they are more expensive than i'm comfortable with. thinking of a tojiro dp, but some on here have mentioned that the handles are not for everyone. i'm also considering a nogent sabatier, but have no experience with carbon steel. i'm trying to keep it in the $100-$130 range.

unfortunately, there are no cutlery stores anywhere near me, so it's hard to try before i buy. any suggestions or comments would be welcome.


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## boar_d_laze

Where to start?

_*Global Handles:*_ It would be stupid to say that size isn't your problem with Globals. However, a lot of people grow to hate them and I suspect there's more to it. In any case, you should certainly have a comfortable knife.

_*Tojiro DP:*_ Perhaps it's not so much that the DPs aren't right for everyone as that I don't like them for me. Despite the fact that they've gone through some serious price increases and are no longer anywhere near the bang for the buck they once were they're still good knives. They no longer seem subject to the same serious F&F problems that plagued them, although F&F still isn't great.

And the thing I like least about them is a "dead" feeling common to nearly all cladded knives and a thing you're very unlikely to notice.

Good but not great edged characteristics. Good hardness for the price.

Yes the handles are somewhat blocky, but they can be sand-papered into submission.

I can't help feeling that one of the things people like about them most is that they tend to be their first Japanese knife, and they're just so much better than most western manufactured blades.

If you're looking for a good value, Japanese knife in your particular price range, the DP is worth considering. If you're looking for a good value with a good handle -- not so much.

No recommendation either way.

_*MAC Pro:*_ The yen's artificial strength makes them expensive. Your sticker shock is understandable. It's a great knife for anyone who wants a high quality, Japanese, stainless knife. Wonderful handle. Everyone loves it. Highly recommended with the caveat that it's overpriced. 
_*
Other Affordable Japanese Stainless:*_ Misono Moly have nice sized comfortable handles, and if you want an "entry level" Japanese stainless -- it's pretty good as far as it goes. But most of the high bang for the buck knives like the Togiharus and JCK VG-10 Kakayagi have handles that are on the short and/or narrow sides.

No strong recommendations because of the handles. Otherwise, the JCK VG-10 Kakayagi, which is much blade for the money.

_*European and American Stainless: *_ The dominant alloy for western, stainless, mass produced knives (especially the "Germans") is something called X50CrMoV15. If a particular manufacturer isn't using that, he's using something so similar it might as well be the same. Most Western manufacturers either use German profiles or the newly popular "wide" German profile. These are all tremendous negatives in my book.

Universally great F&F and great handles. Dammit.

The value/quality winner is probably F. Dick 1904, while Messermeister has the least obnoxious profile -- and is also pretty good for value/quality as these knives go.

Crying shame.

Don't waste your money.
_*
Japanese Carbon:*_ If you're considering the Nogents, Japanese carbon should also be on the list. There are three standouts around your price range: Kikuichi Elite, Masamoto CT; and Misono Sweden. They're all great knives. The Misono has the best handle and blade alloy. But the alloy is highly reactive, and you'll have to force a patina. The Masamoto is a Masamoto -- what can you say? Very comfortable, agile knife -- but not the best alloy, they save that for their more expensive HC. The Kikuichi is a good all 'rounder.

The Misono Sweden has a large dragon nicely engraved on the right side of the blade. FWIW, Mario Batali uses a Misono Sweden chef's -- apparently without an endorsement deal.

The Masamoto HC is _comme il faut_, but out of your price range. Too bad.

All great knives, all highly recommended. Of the three in your range, Masamoto for the win. 
_*
Nogent: *_ Outstanding knife with a lot of history. The handle is certainly blocky, but for whatever reasons it's supremely comfortable.

The basic blade profile is incredibly good. Nothing other than a Masamoto can compare. It's a knife that doesn't penalize bad technique but really rewards good skills.

Very easy to sharpen. Won't stay sharp without a lot of steeling -- but given that will stay sharp for a long time. Some people find it difficult to sharpen around the full finger guard bolster, but it doesn't bother me.

You'll find the Nogents a little blade-heavy for balance, with the balance point on the 10" chef on the forward side of the pinch point. This is a non-issue with me, but you may care. If you do, consider one of the full-tang French carbons.

Indifferent fit and finish -- on the low side as western knives go. I'm not sure that I've ever seen a flat bevel or anything close to a decent edge out of the box, so plan on profiling as soon as the knife arrives.

Great history.

Highly recommended.

_*Other French Carbon: *_ _Thiers Issard carbon, TI Canadian "Massif," K-Sabatier au carbone, K-Sabatier Canadian_ -- same agility and edge characteristics as the Nogent. Same finger guard. Even though the handles are different from one another and the Nogent, same high comfort level. They are all outstandingly usable knives (if you can live with carbon and lots of steeling).

I own or have owned at least two knives from each of these lines, and two Nogents as well.

My favorite chef's among them is the K-Sabatier 10"_ au carbone_. But not by much. While the knife is well priced (~$90) K-Sab charges a lot for shipping a single knife.

Each highly recommended.
_*
Bottom Line: *_ _If you can live with carbon -- Nogent or Misono Sweden.

If you can't, bite the bullet and go with a MAC Pro. The sting of the price will only last a week or so, but you'll own the knife for decades._

If you've got any questions, feel free to get back to me.

BDL


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