# Looking to replace my previous stone. Also wondered about a Steel



## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I have a Victorinox Forschner 8" *Chef's Knife, and was previously using this stone for sharpening:*

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/norto...ombination-oilstone-sharpening-station-p15312

I no longer own the stone due to moving to a new location, and was looking for something to replace it. Was wandering if at this price point what stones would be a better option. I also wondered if I should purchase a Steel or not, and if so, which one?

One reason I am asking is because there are so many options around the $60 price range. Here are some of the stones I have seen that are near my price point:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/global/combination-water-stone-p11298

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/henckels/twin-pro-250-1000-combination-japanese-water-stone-p19691

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/messermeister/400-1000-grit-combination-sharpening-stone-p122887

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/wusthof/combination-ceramic-water-stone-base-p16011

I would prefer to use Amazon if possible since I have some credit I need to use up over there, but it isn't necessary.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Funny, I didn't know that there were 'German' waterstones...I truly have no idea, but would guess these are all made in Japan?  Curous as to why you want to go to water stones from oil stones?  Unless you are planning on purchasing a harder steel knife, the oil stones may perform at least just as well if not better...

If looking for a combination water stone, I would think you would want something like 1k/4-6k.  The stones you've linked all have a very coarse side which would be good when you have a completely dull edge or nicks that need to be removed, but not so good for just occasional sharpening.  I would think that for the same price you may be able to find a Norton combination water stone which would be fairly good quality for the money.

As to a steel, if you don't have one...YES, you need one, and it doesn't have to be expensive.  If you are not sure of the difference of why/when to steel as opposed to sharpen, please ask.

Cheers,

Chinacats


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I am not quite sure why a steel is needed when using a stone to sharpen the knife regularly.  

I have heard to use a steel before using your knife, but that sounds excessive, but I am not sure.

Personally I don't if I go with a Water stone or Oil stone, I just wandered if there was something 

better in the $30-$60 range.  I don't see myself going to a Japanese knife within 6 months, but in a year maybe.

The Forschner has been great through out the long while I have had it though.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

When you sharpen, you create micro-serrations that help you cut.  When the knife hits something hard (cutting board, hard food, etc...) these serrations tend to bend.  The purpose of the steel is to re-align these serrations so that the knife will cut cleanly (European knives need to be steeled much more often than sharpened-which is a good thing).  When you sharpen, you remove these serrations and create new ones...may not be a bad thing, but seems to be an unnecessary waste of blade edge.  Easier to take a few swipes on a steel and not remove as much blade material (easier on the knife and you).  One other thing to look at is that on some knives the more steel you remove, the thicker the blade becomes as you work your way up the knife--not a good thing for cutting geometry--though there are ways around this but they require removing even more steel.

Again, a steel and stone are used for different things...as to which steel or stone to use it will be important to know what you plan on sharpening...if a new knife in a year, I would take that into consideration.

If someone could clarify it may help...feel like a butcher with that explanation...

Chinacats


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Knife edges tend to roll over in waves.  Those waves are called "burrs" (and also "burs").  The burrs need to be straightened (aka "trued') or removed.  Some knives are made from alloys which are  sufficiently "tough" that they can be trued by steeling fairly frequently.  That's a good thing, because those alloys are frequently very "strong" and tend to bend easily. 

However, any alloy which is frequently bent back and forth will fatigue, and tend to break or tear along the bending crease.  Harder, "stronger" alloys are particularly susceptible to breaking so it's usually not a good idea to steel them; or at least to be very, very careful when doing so.

Unless you're using a steel to purposely "chase the burr" as part of the de-burring process I recommend that you only use a few, very gentle strokes for you steeling regimen.  For knives made from harder alloys -- say 60RCH and up -- I think stropping on a piece of newsprint is a better idea than using a rod; because the contact patch from a round or oval rod is so small it concentrates a lot of force.  

When the alloy has fatigued beyond a certain point by repeated truing, the knife will need to be re-sharpened.  This is true whether or not the edge has actually worn down.    

Steeling has very little to do with "micro-serrations" or serrations of any sort -- other than some steels tend to create serrations by scuffing the bevels.  Those serrations can be good or bad things, depending.  As a general rule, the more coarse the steel the larger the serrations and the greater the serration effect.  But that's a different post.

BDL


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

So I have been thinking and going through old posts on here and I have found a few stones that should be fitting for my needs.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kingcombostone.html

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/norton-water-stones/1000-4000-grit-combination-whetstone-p14155

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro/1000-3000-grit-combination-water-stone-base-p117827

I don't let my Chef Knife get too beaten up, and If I had a stone I would probably sharpen on a monthly basis.

I don't think I would need a very low grit (Lower than 800), so the combination stones of 800 and 2000+ seem to be about right.

I imagine myself picking up a Tojiro DP or Mac Chef series knife in the future.

Any ideas why some of the stones are insanely expensive when the combination stone has the same grit and is cheaper?

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro/sharpening-stones

Does anyone know if the Tojiro DP is thinner than an 8" Forschner/Vict?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Thinner?  A little.  Most Forschners are pretty darn thin, but not as thin as most good Japanese made knives.  If you're comparing chef's knives/gyutos, there's really no comparison. 

I'm a big fan of Forschners in general, but not their chef's knifes.  They take so much pounding they're always bent out of true and need too frequent  steeling.  I can put up with a lot of neediness from a carbon Sab because they get so sharp and the profiles are so good -- but Forschners don't bring enough to the table to make it worthwhile.   

The Tojiro is much harder and doesn't need nearly as much steeling.  On the other hand, you want to be careful steeling it, because the "core" alloy, VG-10, is hardened to a point where it can be a little chippy.  Stropping on newsprint, shirt board, or manilla folder paper might be better.

Without knowing what you're trying to sharpen and your skill levels -- all of the stones you're pointing at are pretty good.  I'm not a big fan of combi-stones because the sides wear unevenly, you ALWAYS have to flatten, and they tend to come apart; but a lot of people like them because they require less initial outlay. 

BDL


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

The stone I will be using will be used to sharpen my 8"  Forschner Chef Knife, and most likely a Tojiro in the near future.  

I am not going to lie and say I am great with a stone.  I was semi decent with my Norton stone, but I no longer have it due to moving to PA.

So not being great (I could get the knife sharp enough to shave my arm easily), and being out of practice for numerous months doesn't leave me with much.

Any opinions on a decent clip on guide (I didn't use one before, but I might this time around just for starting out)?


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

So what is the best J-Knife below $80?

These are the two current ones I think will suffice.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmgy21.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html


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## scubadoo97 (Nov 7, 2011)

The TojiroDP has harder steel but may be a little more prone to microchips


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## pohaku (Jul 11, 2011)

Might actually be this one if they get them back in stock. I'm waiting to pick one up, although I'd like a 240mm one. I do have the Tojiro, so I'd have some basis for comparison.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riar21.html


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

OnePiece said:


> Any opinions on a decent clip on guide (I didn't use one before, but I might this time around just for starting out)?


Most dealers carry them and they are usually all the same brand. Not a great long term solution but if they help you get started there is no reason not to use one.

Dave


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks everybody!  

I am not too worried about the micro scratches because I tend to try and take good care of my belongings.

I don't use glass or bamboo cutting boards, but a softer plastic one (My Forschner has made cuts in the board).


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

So I was wondering about going the route of non combination stones, and found this:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ki800grlast.html

It doesn't seem to come with a base though. Can you sharpen without a base?

What is the cheapest base I could get?


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

yes you don't need one with a base...you could try something like this...

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54849&cat=1,43072,67175,67176&ap=1


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## scubadoo97 (Nov 7, 2011)

This stone holders are inexpensive and work well for a wide variety of stones.  I even use my Shapton Glass Stones in this holder.  It just sticks up over the rubber but works fine.  I even put my coarse DMT plate in there and then use my magnetic backed strop on the metal DMT to hold it in place.

When sharpening I put my stone holder on an old cutting board and bridge my sink so I keep the mess in the sink and water is always available.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

Glad to hear the info. I found a similar base to what you posted on Amazon (because of free shipping and such) and here it is:


So I guess I have decided on that 1K King Stone as well as that base. Will purchase the base soon and the stone a little bit later on.


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

OnePiecekeep in mind that the grits you used on the Forshner with Oil Stones are likely different than the Japanese grits.

http://www.fine-tools.com/G10019.htm

With my softer steel knives (like Forshner) I use an ANSI grit size stone of about 800-1000, finish with a soft steeling and/or stropping and if needed about 300 ANSI for thinning. For standard food prepping I find I don't need much else.

I purchased my stones many years ago from Razor Edge Systems but you may be able to find similar stone at a lower cost somewhere else.

I also have a belt sander but that's a separate discusion.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I see.  I intend to get a Tojiro DP or similar, so I feel it is probably more important the stone I get is good for sharpening the me expensive J-Knife.  I was going to go with the 1K King stone and purchase a higher grit to use in combination with it.  I try to take decent care of my knives, so don't think I would let my knife get dull enough to need a sub 1000 grit stone.

You said you use around 1000 grit for softer knives, so what ANSI (or JIS) grit do you use for harder knives?


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## johnr (Aug 5, 2011)

I only have one J knife ... a petty (gifted ot me) which is a size I almost never use... so usually I will use the same stones or my belt sander has higher micron grit and leather belts. But I really can't remember the last time I sharpened or even used this knife.

About the only think I think it's good for is when I want to trim/prep chicken thighs for BBQ competitions which is 2-3 times a year.

The lower grit stones are when you need/want to thin the edge some.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

JohnR said:


> I only have one J knife ... a petty (gifted ot me) which is a size I almost never use... so usually I will use the same stones or my belt sander has higher micron grit and leather belts. But I really can't remember the last time I sharpened or even used this knife.
> 
> About the only think I think it's good for is when I want to trim/prep chicken thighs for BBQ competitions which is 2-3 times a year.
> 
> The lower grit stones are when you need/want to thin the edge some.


I see. I am glad ya posted that grit chart. I am about positive this was my previous stone:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/norto...ombination-oilstone-sharpening-station-p15312

I can't find what the grit was, but I am pretty sure the smooth side of the stone was 1000.

If it was 1000 ANSI, I fear that the King 1K Stone (JIS probably) isn't going to be smooth enough.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I am not sure what your preference to stones may be, or what type of budget your working with, but if your only going to be doing two knives I am comfortable saying that which ever stone(s) you choose should last a long while including a combo stone.I still question if my initial choice of a king 1k 6k combo would have been a better choice then the multiple singles I have purchased, and it would have saved some $$ etc. I guess if you intend on getting more into sharpening then the thicker more expensive single grit stones make sense as you will be adding to your collection etc, but if your just looking to keep a good edge and have no intent on sharpening several knives often, and are not looking to work your way up to a 10K down the road the combo will save you some $$ up front, and may be all you need.

Also though everyone is different and so are sharpening skill levels etc I am not sure if I would like my Tojiro DP knives as much if I stopped at 1K, Actually the least I have done on those is 2K and though it is :"well enough" etc the VG10 core will take a bit more polish and I find I am happier when I have time to take them to 6K.

A lot depends on what you want to do, and what you like etc, and most recommend a 1K as the best first stone for various reasons, and you can get a shaving sharp edge from a 1k too, but everyone is different and I actually just got my first 1K this year, and pretty much use it only when i need to remove a good amount of steel like you would do when removing a small chip or thinning etc ( I know a 600 or 800 might have been a better choice in retrospect, but at the time 1K seemed fine lol).

Lastly since I have both of your original choices in different lengths etc I am confident you should be happy with either the FKM or DP, and though they are different they share a great price point perform well too!


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

Well I finally purchased the Tojiro stone:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro/1000-3000-grit-combination-water-stone-base-p117827

I have a question though. The stone seems to be a splash and go stone judging by the description, but I wanted to be sure before I receive it.

Is there any plus to soaking the stone? Or should I just run it under water/place water on the surface, and start sharpening the knife?


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## duckfat (Aug 7, 2008)

OnePiece said:


> The stone seems to be a splash and go stone judging by the description, but I wanted to be sure before I receive it.
> 
> Is there any plus to soaking the stone?


I've not seen that stone but going on the description it does seem to be a "splash and go". You don't want to soak splash and go stones as that can make them overly soft and the edges can crumble or be susceptible to damage even with a slight bump in the sink.

Dave


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks Duckfat.

Now that I have decided on the Stone, I want to jump back to the knife discussion.

What is the difference between the Tojiro DP and the Tojiro Zen besides the handle?

I noticed the DP boasts the VG-10 core and 60 Rockwell hardness, but the Zen seems to have the same hardness without saying VG10.

The Zen handle looks like it would be more comfortable, but I don't recall ever holding a knife with a completely round (cylinder style) handle like that.

What also jumps at me is the price difference. The Zen is almost 13% cheaper than the DP (so $10 cheaper).

This also raises my curiosity: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toitkshwa21.html

It is $60, and the finish is really different from other blades (can't say that is a good or bad thing).


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Biggest difference is the DP is stainless and will be easier to care for and not need as much attention. The Tojiro ITK is definitely on my list for the future, and though I am not sure what style just yet I have been wanting to add a non stainless knife, and these are just too good a value to ignore just like the DP series is.

I think I would have to recommended the DP over the ITK or any carbon as the better choice for someone new to both J-knives and carbon knives at the same time.

Before any of the carbon steel fanatics hammer me the thinking is based on limiting the new aspect and not overwhelming with too much NEW all at once. Would hate to see anyone not enjoy this experience as much as I have just because they may have been turned off by the extra maintenance of carbon etc


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

LennyD said:


> Biggest difference is the DP is stainless and will be easier to care for and not need as much attention. The Tojiro ITK is definitely on my list for the future, and though I am not sure what style just yet I have been wanting to add a non stainless knife, and these are just too good a value to ignore just like the DP series is.
> I think I would have to recommended the DP over the ITK or any carbon as the better choice for someone new to both J-knives and carbon knives at the same time.
> Before any of the carbon steel fanatics hammer me the thinking is based on limiting the new aspect and not overwhelming with too much NEW all at once. Would hate to see anyone not enjoy this experience as much as I have just because they may have been turned off by the extra maintenance of carbon etc


Thanks.

What about the Zen vs the DP?

Both the same hardness, and the Zen looks more comfortable.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I am honestly not familiar with the Zen line, but also do not put as much value on handle design as I used to after realizing I do not actually grip the handle except for a few knives like a petty and steak knife etc. 

I am actually starting to get ready to create a short list for my next purchase. It will most likely be a sujihiki but will definitely be a slicer (actually what I was after when I got my most recent Konosuke gyuto )and I am trying to determine just how much I may use the handle and how important its design will be etc.

Looking back in time I remember when Henckels first came out with their five star line and how I liked the handles, and also how now I look at it all so differently and it seems to be purely looks and little more.

Any how the point is not to let the handle be your deciding or most important factor, and let it fall further down the list of importance.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

LennyD said:


> I am honestly not familiar with the Zen line, but also do not put as much value on handle design as I used to after realizing I do not actually grip the handle except for a few knives like a petty and steak knife etc.
> I am actually starting to get ready to create a short list for my next purchase. It will most likely be a sujihiki but will definitely be a slicer (actually what I was after when I got my most recent Konosuke gyuto )and I am trying to determine just how much I may use the handle and how important its design will be etc.
> Looking back in time I remember when Henckels first came out with their five star line and how I liked the handles, and also how now I look at it all so differently and it seems to be purely looks and little more.
> Any how the point is not to let the handle be your deciding or most important factor, and let it fall further down the list of importance.


Indeed. I do use a pinch grip, and usually have 3 fingers on the knife rather than the handle.

If the Zen was the same price as the DP, it wouldn't be as tempting. But with a Zen being $10 cheaper, it makes me lean towards it more. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I wanted to add that I am now strongly considering the Zen over the DP.

I was reading descriptions and the makeup of VG-10 Alloy, and it seems the difference between the two knives is very minimal.

The DP is supposedly, "Tojiro DP series features a full-tang and 3-ply clad construction with a core of VG-10 super steel encased by two layers of highly rigid and rust resistant stainless steel."

The Zen is supposedly, "The 3-layer DP Clad Blade is made of cobalt alloy that is sandwiched between two layers of stainless steel."

VG-10 is an alloy containing Cobalt (as you all probably know), and in the DP is the core between the two layers of stainless steel.

The Zen is a Cobalt alloy (no detailed description given though), and is also sandwiched between two layers of stainless steel.   

Both boast the same hardness of 60R; so it makes me wonder what the real difference (if any) is in the core of these two knives.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

$10


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## wunderbier (Aug 3, 2011)

Why not just send Mark from Chef Knives To Go and email with your question regarding Tojiro Zen/DP?


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

wunderbier said:


> Why not just send Mark from Chef Knives To Go and email with your question regarding Tojiro Zen/DP?


One reason is that ChefKnivesToGo doesn't sell the Tojiro Zen line.

They do sell the DP line, with the same handle the Zen has though.

I think I have decided on purchasing the Zen, and will probably be purchasing it by the end of the month.


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

10 bucks is nothing, consider how much you'll likely use the chefs knife.
If you are ONLY getting the Zen over the DP because its cheaper by 10 dollars, then you're probably making a mistake. I can't vouch for either of them, but I'd always say to get the exact chefs knife you want, no compromise, because you will use it so much, and really if you get something you dislike you'll end up buying the thing you really want anyway


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

Indeed.  $10 isn't the deciding factor.  

I prefer the look (and it looks more comfortable) of the Zen over the DP.

Since it seems they are both the same metal, if not very similar, I think I will go with the Zen.


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## wunderbier (Aug 3, 2011)

OnePiece said:


> One reason is that ChefKnivesToGo doesn't sell the Tojiro Zen line.
> 
> They do sell the DP line, with the same handle the Zen has though.
> 
> I think I have decided on purchasing the Zen, and will probably be purchasing it by the end of the month.


This is not them?


> This line is also known as the Zen; the difference being these have a traditional Japanese D-shaped Ho wood handle attached.


Sounds right to me! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif Good luck and enjoy at any rate!


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

wunderbier said:


> This is not them?
> 
> Sounds right to me! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif Good luck and enjoy at any rate!


I looked at it and saw that it said DP in the title and assumed it was another knife.

I guess I will purchase from ChefKnivesToGo because even though they are more expensive than CutleryandMore,

it states the blade is the same as the DP.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Onepiece, can you post a link to the knife your wanting (zen?).

The more I am reading the more I am curious what it is etc.

Also based on other discussions and my own investigations etc it seems Tojiro does have lines that end up being called different things by different people and sellers.

Most recent that comes to mind was someone in Europe talking about the Eco knives. Well it ended up that the Eco was in reference to the handle material, and there was actually a sticker saying such on the boxes my DP came in as well


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

LennyD said:


> Most recent that comes to mind was someone in Europe talking about the Eco knives. Well it ended up that the Eco was in reference to the handle material, and there was actually a sticker saying such on the boxes my DP came in as well


You have just improved my life so much, now I can order the knife I want at a reasonable price.

Where did you order your Tojiros from and how much did you pay?


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

> Onepiece, can you post a link to the knife your wanting (zen?).
> 
> The more I am reading the more I am curious what it is etc.
> 
> ...


http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro-zen/chefs-knife-p117808

There it is. You can see that Cutlery and More states that the knife isn't VG-10, but a cobalt alloy.

Oddly, VG-10 is a cobalt alloy.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Maybe my less than trained eye, but from the looks of it in the link you sent, the Zen looks to have more belly than the DP?  Which would you prefer?  That being said, I would think that the knives are almost identical in all other aspects.


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## rdm magic (Apr 16, 2012)

chinacats said:


> Maybe my less than trained eye, but from the looks of it in the link you sent, the Zen looks to have more belly than the DP? Which would you prefer? That being said, I would think that the knives are almost identical in all other aspects.


The item ID on CKtG and the Zen are the same, so I'd guess they are the same knife, although the Zen has different writing down the blade to the one on CKtG


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

rdm magic said:


> You have just improved my life so much, now I can order the knife I want at a reasonable price.
> Where did you order your Tojiros from and how much did you pay?


I got some from cutlery and more, and also some from CKTG. I did buy most of them just before Christmas of 2010 or right about a year and a half ago.

The one thing that really stands out between the different purchases is not the where so much as both ship quickly and without problem or costs for reasonable price orders, but rather the costs of each item, and how much more was paid this past holiday (end of2011).

Normally both places are closely priced, but when C&M puts the Tojiro on special or clearance they offer some great prices.

Also I seem to remember paying almost 30% forthwith most recent order over the initial one etc.

I do not think you could go wrong either way, and just buy where you feel most comfortable or think you are getting the best overall value etc.

Also unless things have changed there are no deals on these on eBay except for used stuff, and from experience I know most of this is due to eBay getting greedy and driving up costs to sellers to over 18% in many cases.

If you are not in a rush or just would like to be included in future specials from both sellers then sign up for their email specials as there can be some sweet deals (like the 30% off @ C&M right after I ordered mine from CKTG LOL).


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

rdm magic said:


> The item ID on CKtG and the Zen are the same, so I'd guess they are the same knife, although the Zen has different writing down the blade to the one on CKtG


I did not compare them yet, but it is not unusual for them to ship different markings to different us sellers, and also that the pics used are often different sides of the blades.


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

So I guess I have decided on the Zen from CutleryAndMore.  

My apologies for being so indecisive on this.


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## chinacats (Feb 4, 2012)

Nice, hope you enjoy!


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I recieved my Tojiro 1000 - 3000 Combo stone today.

Sadly there is a small chip on the red colored side towards the end.

It doesn't affect my sharpening, but still a little disheartening.

I had a little bit of a hard time discerning between the low grit and the high grit side.

But I then realized it stated it on the packaging. The packaging is pretty much all in Japanese,

but it shows an image that appears to show the stone being submerged/soaked in water.

That is confusing because CutleryAndMore describes it as a splash and go stone.

My previous stone felt much "harder", and the grit was much more noticeable.

When I sharpened the knife back then it sounded more like I was grinding the metal to sharpen it.

On the Tojiro it feels much more like running a knife across leather or something and the sound produced isn't a grinding sound,

but much more like running the knife along fabric. It also seems to grind down a lot more than my previous stone. By that I mean the red of the stone literally produced a read liquid that was rather thick. This was my previous stone

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/norto...ombination-oilstone-sharpening-station-p15312

It was obvious I was out of practice and also pretty bad at sharpening, because I could barely sharpen the top 1/4 of the knife (the tip).

The good thing was my knife was so dull I couldn't even cut paper (Seriously), after sharpening it was easily able to slide down a sheet of paper.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Glad your enjoying the new stone and not letting the small issue ruin it for you etc. I am also of the thinking that if I paid for new I do not want a damaged or otherwise not new item etc, but I think we all realize that once we use it even once it is no longer new and we can let go of the little things. Still sometimes when you know damn well you just paid retail it is not that easy lol.

The stones your comparing are pretty not comparable. Almost everything about them is different from the material they are made from, the way they feel, what they will sharpen well, and even now to use or handle them.

Do keep your Norton though as they are great for most of the knives you won't want to use your Tojiro stone for, and also for all kinds of tools and stuff.

That sludge your finding when using the stone is most often called mud or swarf etc and until it is full of the metal you removed from your blade it can help or change how the stone grinds.

One thing to keep in mind is that the idea is to be able to remove a good amount of steel without causing lots of deep scratches in the metal etc. And also it seems that all stones have a different feel to them, and you may need to find what you like or learn the pros and cons of the stone etc.

Personally I like both soft and hard feeling stones for different things and reasons.

Will get into that more when I get to a computer as this gets tedious on my cell


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## onepiece (Jan 24, 2011)

I had the Norton, but it was left with a relative during the move (long story), so I no longer have it.

I still have mixed feelings on whether I like the feeling of the softer Tojiro stone, but I think it was mostly surprise in how different it was in all aspects.

I am contemplating a change in how I sharpen the knife, due to my difficulties sharpening the top 1/4 of the knife.  I currently use the method Mark (CTK) uses for holding the knife and sharpening,

but might try the large sweep method where you go across the entire blade in one motion diagonally.  

Still it is so much better than how dull it was before.  I used to apply enough pressure on the knife when cutting things like potatoes the knife would make a loud click/thud

sound when it hit the board, but now that isn't necessary.   LOL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

I have to recommended giving the new stone a chance and using it to "hone" your skills.

Just the challenge of it being different will help you in the long term etc.

I know my first so many times using water stones was a learning experience as well as a eye opener. Since my first two stones were entirely different (a 2k glass, and 6k Arashiyama ) and one super hard and very forgiving and the other much softer and feeling smooth was a complete contrast.

I know my initial choices were not in line with what many recommended but I am glad I went this way as it allowed me to have a chance to sample extremes and learn just what I liked and also didn't about the two styles.

I saw you mention you do not feel or hear the heavy abrasive sounds that you did on your old oil stone, and for me at least the smoothness is a preference and especially at higher grits.

I also know sharpening is a subject all its own


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