# Clear Look with Pulled Sugar



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I do some pulled sugar. But I have someone that wants pulled sugar to look like a cd. How would I achieve a cd look with pulled sugar? Would it be best to make it clear, and how do I get a clear look with pulled suagr?

Never mind folks I got it> Appreciate it. :bounce:


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

cakerookie,
When you have something like that, maybe you could post the answer so those reading can learn. I'm going to assume you're going to pour. Let us know and we always love pics.  
Pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Sorry, I will let you know how it turns out.


----------



## zukerig (Sep 23, 2004)

The ascorbic acid in fresh lemon juice should help achieve a translucent sugar.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks Chef. Did'nt Think About That. How Much Would You Add To A Recipe That Yields 3 Cups?


----------



## zukerig (Sep 23, 2004)

It is critical to determine at which temperature stage you're cooking the pulled sugar. The higher the temperature achieved, the darker the color. The light-caramel stage is optimum for your spun-sugar project. The sugar will lighten in color, the more it's pulled.

Interestingly, you can experiment by adding small amounts of blue food coloring (in powdered form) to the clear sugar to obtain a whitish result. Be attentive to _not overworking_ the spun sugar, as that will build up crystallization - a bane of sugarcraft.

As for the lemon juice, it's quite weak in terms of acidity compared with, for example, cream of tartar.

Are you currently working in a region with a high humidex?


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah I am afraid I am. Down south in the USA kinda humid here. Should I add the lemon juice before the mixture begins to boil or add it with the dry ingredients? I usually pull the mixture off of the heat around 297 F simply because the temperature of the sugar will continue to rise gradually even after coming off the heat. This part is rather confusing because every boiled sugar recipe I have or have read has a different point at which to remove the sugar from the heat. I have found 297 works best for me so that is what I use. I know sugar starts to carmelize at 320 so I do not want to live dangerously. Appreciate your time in responding to my posts it means a lot.
I like your proverb. OK if I use it sometime?


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

cakerookie,
Are you plunging the sugar when you take it off the heat to slow the cooking process or are you going right to the marble? How are you making out achieving clear after pulling. Mine akways gets opaque. I can get clear when I pour. 
I know your in a humid place so I assume your at about 20-25% on the glucose. I'm humid here sometimes and I find that adding the glucose when I'm at 120 or so and not in the beginning keeps the sugar malible sp?. I used to have many problems in the past because I was super saturating my sugar using too much glucose. It either got gluie or melted completely.

Zukerig,
You are putting the powdered coloring right into the sugar without a slurry?
I still use milkvise sp? for white. Also, can you still stay clear and pull?

All this keeping in mind I'm using a medium coarse sugar and not isolmalt.
thanks,pan


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CakeRookie,
It all makes sense to me. I really enjoy reading anything about this subjest. I know it seems that I may ask some basic questions, that's because I don't hardly get a chance to create anymore. I was heavy into sugar in the mid 80's when sugar showpieces were a requirement of Exec. Pastry Chefs. Now it is mostly play or to fill a special request. I'm so old that I have never formally switched over to isomalt as most of the younger chefs have. Probably the same reason I'm still hitting persimon woods when golfing.
Sugar is so far, few, and in between that last week I set up, and one of my bladders was cracked and a few of my Maggfleur flower molds have become porous and won't pop.
Stay with it and pass on as much as you learn to keep this art form alive.
I just didn't know if someone developed a way to pull and stay clear. If I remember correctly heating glucose does not change the makeup where as it will change the light corn syrup. I think the only reason for the use is to prevent crystalizing by encapsulating the grains of sugar. I do know that it is best to use a medium coarse sugar. To fine and it gets lumpy inhibiting the disolve. To large and you have to add more water for the disolve. Anyway, I won't bore you further. Posts some pics if you get a chance.
Pan
PS Are they still using resin molds for pieces?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I have been watching and reading this thread and I'm not sure I agree on several things being said, but my memory isn't good enough to contradict some things without checking my original notes. That being said though I have to take issue with this particular statement.
The reason you do not get a "clear look" when pulling sugar is the fact that you are not pulling air into the sugar when pulling it. In fact when you are pulling the sugar you are cooling it a little at a time. The opaqueness and shinyness that you are seeing is light reflecting off the thousands of microscopic crystals that are forming as it cools. These are not the same hydroscopic crystals that will eat your sugar and turn it into so much dust over time.

Here's a couple of bad scans. I don't quite have a handle on the scanning features of my printer just yet 

Fruit basket and flower hoop

Horse and Lobster

Peacock and Parrots


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

OK, I will be the first to admit being wrong is not always bad, not good either. Please give me more details about this chemical stuff. I have not gotten that in depth into it yet,because I do not want to mislead anyone. But everything I said wasn't wrong, was it? Hey I am willing to accept criticism if someone else can show me the right way I am all for it. Thanks for correcting me. I read that some where but don't remember where. Might have gotten it confused with something else though. And I deleted the air thing just so I do not mislead anyone else.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

COACH!!!!  
There you go again. You go so far over my head I hear the sound barrier boom  . microscopic, hydroscopic, endoscopic, philanthropic, myoptic, helicoptic.
You have a wealth of knowledge, don't take issue, contradict. Let it flow. That's what this place is all about. I'm just an old baker talking sugar. If you didn't jump in I would feel cheated.
We pull the sugar to make and keep it malliable, right? It cools while doing this. We pour sugar and just let it cool.
BTW My POS PC couldn't open those scans.
I always understood that color was useless without light. WOW nice play by KC.
Anyway Chrose, keep it coming, you always enlighten me.
Pan


----------



## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I admire the expertise of you all,

Going back to the original question.Can you pull sugar and keep it clear? I thought that the air added during pulling & cooling makes the sugar opaque.

What about isamalt? Do any of you use it? What are your thoughts?


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CC,
I'm thinking pulling doesn't incorperate air into the sugar. It is quite dense and the fact that the sugar itself creates a barrier against the air when you blow it leads me to believe this. I'm thinking that you are actually changing the makeup of the sugar by streaching it. The invert sugar coats each and every individual grain of sugar. That's what gives it the stretch. awh, what the heck to I know :beer:


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I had heard that the glass ware in movie stunts was sugar. So if the fight calls for lots of breaking glas on people, it's a sugar item, not glass.

This might help?

http://reading.indiana.edu/www/famre...07/stunts.html

Phil


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Aww shucks, you're too nice. It's been a long time since I read my notes and reviewed my work so I do from what little memory I have. So if there is any doubt in my mind about what I'm saying I usually keep it shut. But a couple of things, and hey I could be wrong too....but....

As a rule of thumb, I never use powdered coloring in a powdered form. I always add some alcohol. Usually a brandy. The taste and the alcohol burn off and because it heats up so quickly it blends in beautifully into the melted sugar. If you're pouring it, you can get some nice effects. If you're pulling it it will blend nicely as you work the sugar prior to cooling.
"Overworking" the sugar in and of itself will cause a form of crystallization. that won't necessarily kill your piece, but it will look grainy. More important is impurities and poor melting will cause killer crystallization that will eat away at your piece.
Lemon juice while weaker perhaps in the acidity has the potential for water and impurities that may cloud the sugar. Tartaric acid if available is the preferred choice.
 Let me backtrack. Yes pulling the sugar does add air to it helping to cool it, if you then put it back under the light you will lose that air but the idea is to pull it at as cool a temperature as you can get while still malleable to get the proper crystallization for light reflectance.
 Glucose is an invert sugar which helps to inhibit any potential crystallization. The tartaric acid will help the elasticity of the sugar as well.
On a personal note, I tried Isomalt when it was first introduced. My impression was that it was great for poured pieces, but it melted at a higher temperature and I found it to be much harder to pull resulting in more pain to my hands than necessary.
And back to the original question. I think if you add a little milkwhite to the sugar and perhaps a hint of blue as Zukerig suggested you might be able to form a semblance of the rainbow effect a CD might produce, but then pulling it into a circle, now that would take skill!


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

It has been a pleasure getting to know all of you over the past week. But I bid you farewell. I will not be returning to Chef Talk. So with that my final posts on this subject.

The art of sugar pulling and pouring I hope will continue to survive in the hearts and minds of those who are dedicated to the craft. But I have decided that I should concentrate on my cake decorating and leave this to some one else. Happy pulling and good luck to all.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Gulp :suprise: 
Gosh, I hope my fingers did not type something that my mind wasn't thinking.
I was so interested in this thread because somebody was actually experimenting. I'm sure everyone knows that I never read what I write before I post and that I have an anal, pastry type of humor. Chrose I meant no harm to you in my post, I think you know that.
I actually talked to cakerookie through PM and they feel like they had given some misinformation. 50% of my posts are probably misinformation. I expalined to cakerookie the reason that CT is the greatest place to reside is the plain fact that almost all of the post here have no malicious intent. I told CR not to leave, and get right back up here on this thread. This is a dying art. There are fewer and fewer houses where the bean counters downstairs in a cubicle can't justify the time and money spent on showpieces.
CakeRookie, I'm not going to beg you to come back but life is too short to sweat the small stuff. If you have to, come back with an alias :smoking: 
Like Chrose said. Sometimes you do things that you just can't remember the real facts that you note during the learning process. I was hesitant to ask if you can use powered colour without making a slurry. I know I never use it straight, but didn't remember why.
Hope all is well here.
Pan


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I will kill 2 posts with one response. This will answer this comment and cakerookies retirement. Here is my response:  
Short and succinct.
Now what are you two talking about? Pan I saw no harm whatsoever in anything you posted. Quite the contrary I was trying to word my response carefully so as not to offend anyone and also to be as accurate as I can be. We have some real experts in a lot of things on the board and I have to keep on my toes. I can be quite opinionated, but ever since my little brain fart I am not as confident in my opinion as I once was. It's been quite awhile since I was active in actual day to day operations. I'm still as brilliant as ever :blush: it just takes awhile longer for the light bulb to come on!  
As for Cakerookie, I was totally baffled by the departure. Rereading his posts he seemed a bit insecure in his posting and perhaps was scared off. I was going to pm him myself, but I didn't. If he's lurking there's no reason not to continue to join in. We all learn from each other. There were a few things that were posted that I didn't agree with but that doesn't mean that I was right  heck I could be way off base (unlikely as that may be  )
Still it's a learning forum and we are all friends so why stop the thread here.? Whats next on the agenda. Remember my motto: 
"If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, than baffle them with your


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

OK Chrose & Panini maybe I rushed a little bit and felt kind of bad I misled Panini like that. But like you said Chrose this is a learning forum and its all about that "Learning."
So with that lets get this blasted thread moving agian. Heres the agenda.

"What would be the preferred temperature for removing the sugar from the heat?" I take mine off at 297F. But I have some recipes that say 305. Whats the difference?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Nice to have you back CRookie!
Okay looking back I revise an earlier statement about adding color. Use powder if available and mix with water not alcohol. I used the alcohol for a different procedure. Sorry 'bout that. Now bring your sugar up to temperature quickly so that it doesn't yellow from slow cooking. Bring the sugar to 280ºF and add 15 drops of Tartaric acid mix per 1# sugar. Continue boiling to 309ºF. Remove from the heat and allow the bubbles to die down for a moment. Dipping the pan is not necessary. Pour onto an oiled marble slab and allow to cool for a few moments until the edges start to harden a bit. Start pulling the edges inward and lift and mix and cool, etc. The difference as you asked of a few degrees is not cast in stone as far as I know, it's personal preference. The temperature I gave you came from the master (not me unfortunately) with years of experience and as far as I'm concerned it's "gospel"!

And again, good to have you back :crazy:


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey Cakerookie!
Welcome back.
It might be better to post your formula and method and proceedure.
I use 2 to 1 on the sugar starting with cold water. (I use bottled for our tap water is cr-p). I let this sit for a while and mix to start the disolve(usually when I set out my box) I then add the heat. I use an electric coil burner, seems to heat more evenly. I use the lid method in stead of brushing, but always have the brush there. I heat this and add the glucose around 120.(20 percent of the total sugar/water weight. If is is really dry (winter) I might bump this up a little. Never go higher if it's humid, you will most likely end up with dead sugar. I also add any color at this time. I then heat and remove at 148. I then plunge, add the tattaric acid and swirl the pot until it is incorporated.
That's it.
Pan


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, there you go.
It's not etched in stone. I appenticed with Georg Maushagen (specialized in casting sugar), Peter Boyle ( former glass blower turned sugar artist), Notters, and had different notes and proceedures and temps from all of them. You just have to find what works best for you.
What are you playing with now, pouring, pulling, blowing,?


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Panini did I read you right. You apprenticed under Ewald Notter. The Ewald Notter?
The same fellow that now runs The School of Confectionary Arts in Switzerland. Man thats quite a resume! Impressive! A chance like that is once in a life time. You da man. Lets read some of those notes you have from the Notters if you have any. Chrose said this was a learning forum.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

no, apprenticed under Georg, and demoed with Peter and took class from Notters. I did a week with them years ago. I do have notes and pics somewhere, I'll pull them. I have no idea what they're doing now. I did not know he was in Switzerland. Course finding notes will be like trying to find something in my garage.
don't have a resume, not da man, actually wasn't trying to name drop but show the difference in styles, going back over 20 yrs.
Check the difference between Chroses temp for removing and mine.148 and Chrose ?155 That a pretty big gap. I remember losing maliability quicker when I went to a higher temp. post your formula


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Ewald Notter has moved his school from Albert Usters in Gaithersburg, Md. to Orlando, Fl. (Why I haven't got the foggiest idea!) So the cats out of the bag. I get my info from Ewald. I have certificates for basic and advanced sugar, basic and advanced chocolate and Australian wedding cake design from Susan and Ewald Notter and Sue McMahon.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I admire both of you. Personally I get my information from Bo Friberg. I have two of his books."The Advanced Professional Pastry Chef" and "The Professional Pastry Chef." The Notters have a book out called "The Textbook of Sugar Pouring and Pulling" would love to have it but it is expensive. I am self taught as I do not have the cash to attend school. I will post my method and formula for my recipe later on today.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CR,
I admire you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with selftaught. You know the big names don't mean that much. They are the ones who decided to bring their skill forward for others. It's kind of like professional basketball. You hear and learn from those that have been picked to play in front of fans. The fact is, that there are plenty of qualified and better players on the streets playing 50. games. You just don't hear of them. I've been in plenty of operations where I have been blown away buy the sugar and ice work done in house by one of the cooks.
Keep playing and learning


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Ewald Notter when he was much younger worked for Spungli in Switzerland where he learned the basics of sugar. He said that he would go home to his apartment at night and just practice there. So essentially he would be self taught for the most part. All the fancy techniques that we learn today are from years of practice. So like anything else, the more you practice the better you get.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I use granulated sugar, water, and cream of tarter. I want to add some light corn syrup to my next batch but I have to figure out when to add it. My last batch was a little grainy I think I over pulled it. I think I might just use water, granulated sugar and light corn syrup next time and see what happens now that I have my silpats and don't have to worry about greasing anything.CH can I use food coloring in my batch? Or would the water cause the sugar to crystallize? Thinking about trying it on a small batch too see what happens.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CR,
I never had much luck using cream of tartar, try to get some tartaric acid crystals and make your own solution. You just get a eye-droper bottle, need to have a heat resistant squeezer. It my be called a pipette bottle if you look at albert uster or places like that. You just take 100gm of crystal and a 100gm of water. boil and disolve. add to the dropper bottle. This really extends your maliable time. You might also get some glucose. It never crystalizes. We used to buy it as starch syrup or capilary sugar but I think everyone calls it glucose.
Colors. you want to use a dilution with water. Most have alcohol, maybe Chrose can answer that. I always use powder diluted with water. I add my color at 120c or there abouts.
I also find it best to add my glucose at this time. I can't remember why though. I'm sure I had better results that way.
I'm going to look for small quantity perveyors for the glucose, acid, color (white), lacquer etc. I'll let you know. I can't remember who makes my glucose, large gray container. If you can't find small quantities I'll send you some.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Cakerookie,
Albert Uster has everything that you may need.
auiswisscatalogue.com


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

CR, Using granulated sugar is fine. The use of glucose is because it's an inverted sugar. Corn syrup can be used but bear in mind it's weaker. Liquid food colors and paste colors should be avoided if possible as they contain acids for preservation that will eat at your piece eventually. I would add it a minute or so before taking it off the heat. If you do use water based though don't worry about the water content. The little bit that's in there will boil off almost imediately causing you no harm. While a silpat will certainly take the heat it won't do what the marbles primary function is and that's to cool the sugar down as you work with it. Also the marble is a great thing to keep touching and cool your fingers off. While not cheap marble can be had a very reasonable prices. First keep an eye on garage sales and thrift stores. Many times you'll find a small table with a small marble top that can be used. Also if you have a stone place near you (check the yellow pages) they often times will have cut offs and irregular pieces that can be had cheap.
And tartaric acid crytals can be gotten fairly cheaply from any place that sells wine or beer making items. Pipette bottles and dropper bottles should be able to be gotten from any full service pharmacy.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Panini I could not help but notice you are from Texas. Hope you are not in the path of hurricane Rita!


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

No, in Dallas. Expecting lots of family to arrive tonight. They have been on the road for over 17 hrs. Normally a 4+ hr drive.
Thanks for thinking of me.
Pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Your welcome. Hope they arrive safe and sound.


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I thought you guys were in the direct path of Rita? Either way you're going to get some wind and rain that's fo' sho'!
I just made contact recently with an old high school buddy (I emphasize High and Old  ) Anyhoo he's in Dallas or a suburb at least. When this is all over I'll have to tell him to stop by and make you his bakery stop!
So hang in there, we're hoping and wishing the best for you!


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey CH need some expert advice here. Could you use pastillage for poured sugar molds. I thought I heard them say on that Food Network Show in that Sugar competiton they had that the contestants used pastillage has molds. I may have misunderstood. If not is there anything I can get off the shelf that will work? Heard anything form Panini?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

CR, first I have not heard anything from Pan or my friend in Dallas, but the storm has yet to hit there and I don't imagine it will be much for them relatively speaking, so they're probably busy with family, etc.
As far as pastillage considering it consistency yes you could push it into molds and use it as a base I imagine. I don't know however that I would use it as a base myself. But if I recall they chefs were making big stands with it so the stress on it would be spread around the piece making it a bit safer to use.
I always used poured sugar as a base. You can color it nicely, you can also pour it onto foil and either leave the foil on or take it off after it cools for some nice effects.

Note: I just reread your post, you want to use the pastillage *for* the mold don't you. Yes you could do that as well. As far as off the shelf, there are the silicone molds that you can make that are food grade, but as you might imagine they are not cheap.
Did this help or make it worse :look:


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah that helped a lot. Thanks. Planning on getting in some practice this weekend and had a few new ideas I wanted try. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey guys. yea, entertaining family. Love my inlaws :crazy: 
CR, did you get a chance to check out the Uster site?
There are a lot of silicone and resin mold making materials available at you local hardware store.I assume? They used to be 2 part and worked well. I have not done it in years, but I can tell you I still have many and still use them. I still have one of many strawberry mold. I had found a ceramic straw,, made molds. I then blew straw with ease.
Weather is now getting windy. Don't expect much here. Houston basically dodged the bullet. Having problem with logistics in delivering our wedd cakes today. Major traffic, gas shortage and such.
Chrose. open invitation for your friend to visit. Always hot coffee. We're in the bubble ( park cities) they'll know where we are.
Well, going to cook meals at the retail shop, for the gang is on their own for breakfast  which usually means a messy disaster :bounce:


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey Pan good to hear you are OK. Good luck with the in-laws. I checked out the uster site you talked about. Expensive. I left a post for CH about using pastillage as a mold. CH said that would work so I have an idea I am going to try tommorrow. Let you know how it turns out.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CR,
I just want to remind you to stay one step ahead when using sugar. Make sure you're ready in case the past. breaks and things like that. I have seen bad burns working with sugar. If you are working at home, fill a sink with ice and a little h2o. You'll always have a place to plunge if need be. This also make a great place for a cold one after you have finished. Sucessful or not :bounce: :beer: 
You have inspired me to set up permanantly and get the whole kitchen involved. Thanks.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Glad to hear it Pan. Maybe I can help restore this art back from the dead huh!


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, it is still quite alive.
It's just not seen as much these days. For one, they are fragile, they have a short shelf life unless encased in vacuumned plexiglass boxes and lots of silicate or stone. There might be better ways to preserve now though. Realistically the resale is not feasible. I get 7.50 for a fondant 9 leaf rose. I seriously don't think I can get 25. for a pulled rose. I do them on special request and just build them into the cake price. I'm thinking if I make the station perminent, I can involve others to get cost down labor wise. We are only yielding 16 fondant roses and hour now, 1 person. Each walk-in and ordered cake get a rose and inscription free.
WOW!!! The golf course siren is going off and I have pool furniture blowing allover. GTG


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Yeah, you are right about the cost. Most professionals start at $85.00 an hour for a sugar piece. It may go higher depending on the amount of detail wanted in the piece. All in all it is a very expensive art form both time wise and equipment wise. Most of my equipment I have made myself because I can not afford the high priced professional stuff. Besides the homemade stuff works just as well and not as expensive. And some of the stuff has been given to me by friends so I am coming out alright.Hey! CH. I am pretty close on the price range aren't I? What do you think?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

That's true. Mostly they are done as show pieces and unless you're at that "show".....
Otherwise you'll find them mostly in upper end hotels and restaurants in the form of flowers, ribbons and twirly things.


While true for the most part, humidity is the killer. I made a horse for my sister in L.A. and it sat on her shelf for several years before an earthquake finally did it in. The interesting thing is that as it aged the sugar did something, maybe it crystallized, I'm not sure I didn't see it close up, but it took on a very old ivory look to it. It really was extremely cool looking!


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

We always priced by the piece. We did a party in DC for the film premier of Beauty and the Beast from the AFI and Ewald made pieces of the charactors in the movie. The beauty, beast, etc. I did the rest of the lesser items. He charged something like $250 each. But then again it was Ewald Notter. I would have gotten about $125, but they also wouldn't have been nearly as nice!


That's what I did. I built it all myself and only bought the few things that weren't buildable. I did my whole station and equipment for less than $100 (Of course that was "wayyy back when"!  )


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey CH, Pan what the heck happened to my sugar? I used a different recipe in my practice session tonight and the stuff got brittle almost immediately. And it was a bull to pull it. Heres the recipe I used:

3/4 cups water
3 cups granulated sugar
1/4 teaspoon cream of tarter dissolved in 1 teaspoon of water.
1/2 cup light corn syrup.

I have never had a batch to do that. The new recipe said to bring the mixture up to boil on low heat and stir constantly until the sugar dissolves. Once it comes to a boil add the corn syrup and mix well. Cover and let boil rapidly for a few minutes. Once the temp got to 280 it said add the cream of tarter and boil to desired temp. I went to 300 and took it off the heat and did that dipping thing for 10 seconds then poured it out onto the silpat.
I believe the mistake was bring it up slowly. But I cannot be sure what do you guys think?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

This is a toughie (to me anyway) you don't want to bring it to a boil too quickly because that doesn't give the crystals time to dissolve. By the same token you don't want use too high a flame as that can add to caramelization and add to the chance of crystallization. Your quantity ratios seem about right, let me ask you this; When you boil the sugar, are you skimming the foamy scum off the top? If not you could be boiling the impurities right back into the sugar. Remember too that although the sugar is dissolved, what you can't see can hurt you. The sugar crystals are tougher than they appear. They may look dissolved, but in reality they may not be. 
It sounds to me like you had almost instant crystallization. If that's the case, the likely culprits are:
Undissolved sugar crstals that were left on the side of the pan. IE: Not washed down during the boiling.
Not long enough of a boil to remove all the crystals.
And impurities from the sugar and or corn syrup bottle.
Any acids that may have been hanging around, on your utensils.
A dirty Silpat
And last but not least, moisture from the cooling bath that might have dripped somewhere. If it got into the sugar syrup and wasn't evaporated might have helped cause the problem.
Also what kind of coloring agent did you use? That can have an effect too.
I'd like to hear Jeffs thoughts on this as well.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey,
I first want to encourage more posts in the thread from others doing, have done, want to do sugar. Do not be scared off.
CR I personally think you are supersaturated. Your at 25% water with that formula. I have not gone that low but I'm thinking I would have doubled the water. Also CR, Use the wash down method until you really get going. I'm not sure that slow boil generated enough steam to wash.
Just some thoughts.
also: using SS,copper, pot?
what are you using to mix in the adds?


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I am using a 3 quart ss saucepan. I agree with you Pan I think that slow boil was not quick enough to generate enough steam for a complete wash down. But I also tend to agree with CH in his opening paragraph about boiling impurities right back into the sugar. That is the first time I have used the lid method, something tells me I will not be doing it agian anytime soon. I am using a wooden spoon to mix in the adds. CH I did not put any color into this batch, figured I would give that a try next go around. Pan you threw me with that 25% water thing those baker percentages I don't have down quite yet. I believe the real culprit was the corn syrup. I never had that problem until I added the corn syrup and then everything went south on me today. My last few batches were just water, sugar, and cream of tarter and I had no problem. It's not possible I over pulled it because I never pull it more than 20 times. That usually gives me that silky shine that pulled sugar is known for. Gotta stop this for a while, fingers are a little sore from today. You guys have a good night.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CR. sound like you had a learning day. By 25% I mean you had 75% sugar and 25% sugar. I'm usually up arounf 50-50 ( 3 cups sugar--1.5 cups water)
A super saturated solution that doesn't completely disolve will sieze.
I'll pull the specs for sugar on how much non sugars are allowed, you know, like dirt, insect parts and such. You might be surprized. I just use a napkin to sop the impurities. Sort of like you do with flan to remove bubbles.
I'm not a believer in wooden spoons. They are porous and usually retain moisture for a long time after washing.
Pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey Pan, would'nt using a napkin introduce impurities into the mixture as well? What would you suggest for stirring? A metal spoon? I know one thing I am going back to my original recipe next time. Think I'll use your idea maybe 3 cups sugar 1 /1/2 cups water and the cream of tarter. What if I cut the corn syrup back to a 1/4 cup? Should I add it at the beggining? This corn syrup thing as got me spooked.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

CH
What is the best way to go about the design of a sugar piece? How do the pros do it?
Draw it out on cardboard or something. Some kind of outline or form they follow?


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

Like anything it's best accomplished with a plan. It doesn't have to be anything formal. Get yourself a notebook and a pencil and just start sketching ideas. I have done things from drawings and photos, also just from memory. If you start with a basic idea you can add to it as it progresses. I did a piece once of Winnie the Pooh. I don't recall why, I think I just did. I had a picture from a book and I did a rough sketch. I made a poured base and I worked it from there. I was able to visualize the size Pooh would take and then I just built a wood scene around him as I went. I did a bent tree and then I thought what else do I need. A butterfly on his nose would look cool, so I did a butterfly and attached it to his nose, etc.
You don't really need anything more than a sketch with a rough idea. You just need to be proportional, so if your spatial awareness is a little weak, then trying doing a sketch to scale. Or if you want to do figures, get plastic models to give you an idea of form and size as you're working. Get a book on drawing or sulptures to give you an idea of form and function. It will help.
Remember too that if you like to do pieces with height like you see on the competitions, you're going to need some knowledge of strength and balance.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks CH. That helped a lot. But I am no artist when it comes to drawing. Be honest I cannot draw. Might be able to get it look like something but thats about it. One more question. I want to use this piece for the top of a cake. Would it be best to place the piece directly on the icing or use something like a thin poured sugar base on top of the cake? The icing will not be hot just at room temperature.


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I would suggest you make a base by crumpling up some foil. Lightly oil an entremet ring or just use a free form that will still fit on top of the cake. Pour your sugar onto the foil. Let it harden. Trim the foil but leave it on the base. That will protect the sugar piece from the cake and give the piece some stability. Also never skimp. What I mean is that don't make the piece too thin, or small. Sugar needs stability and strength. Making pieces thin leads to failure.
On that note, so you're not an artist? Who is? If you can't make a sculpture that looks like ...well....a sculpture! Than do free form work. There is a sugar guy who's world renowned (name escapes me just now, but I'll come up with it eventually) his work is nothing like Ewalds, but his pieces are nothing like Ewalds either and they are magnificent. He was originally an Ice sculpturer and that's where he got a lot of his ideas. Sugar is beautiful in all it's forms. Don't hesitae to exploe the craft, and let your fingers do the talking :crazy:


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks CH. You and Pan have been a great inspiration for me since I entered this forum. Thanks a lot.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey CH or Pan. I got a recipe for poured sugar off the Food Network website last night by Jacques Torres on poured sugar. The only difference I noticed was he used vinegar instead of the usual tartaric acid or cream of tartar. Would'nt vinegar be more of a moisture inhibitor than the other two? Do not know what the difference is but I have a practice piece I am going to work on today I think I will try it and see what happens. I hope to have pics of this one if I don't screw it up. Another thing I noticed was it did not say weather it was distilled vinegar or apple cider vinegar, proably distilled, since apple cider would proably cloud the piece.


----------



## chrose (Nov 20, 2000)

I imagine that adding the vinegar does much the same as adding the lemon juice or acid. The acetic acid in the vinegar along with the heat will invert part of the sugar making crystallization less likely. The difference I see is that adding lemon juice you run the risk of particles and precipitation (cloudiness). It's also more likely to be available in the kitchen than tartaric acid. Use the distilled. As far as moisture retention I don't think it makes a difference. Here's a tip. Bring your sugar to 309ºF and take it off the heat. Plunge in cool water to stop the process and make sure you thoroughly dry the outside of the pan so you don't get any stray water drips. Allow the pan to cool anough so that the bubbles dissipate and the sugar thickens slightly. Be careful pouring.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

CH, how do I insert a photo here?


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey guys,
CR, on the wooden, I don't use one. I prefer metal, but that's just me. Also,
do you have a source of cool air for pulling and gluing?
I just wanted to mention, when I first started pouring, I can't remember who this was, but he had us use large coloring books. We basically just used them as stencils. Cut them out of clay in pieces. Poured different colors and glued them together. It was pretty neat to get results early in the process. I had more disney characters around my little 500 sq ft apartment, I used to get nightmares.  
If you can't figure how to put up a pic. email me one
pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey Pan! Thought you got hung up in hurricane Rita. Glad to hear from you. I will e-mail you my photo. But I got to warn you it's not much. I ran out of sugar and did not want to go get anymore. By the way you got an answer for the stickiness on this stuff? Read you could scrape it off with a small knife but that would scratch up the piece would'nt it? Any ideas? Yeah I have a hair dryer with a cool air setting on it.


----------



## coppperpot (Oct 6, 2005)

*Try making a clear boiling of pouring sugar,Use a rubber mat cut out the size of CD, place a sheet of holographic paper underneath the mat then place a small lighty oiled ring mould in the centre where the hole should be, pour in sugar slowly to your desired thickness and leave to cool completely then carefully remove ring mould and rubber mat trim round the sugar carefully and hey you just cut your first cd hope this is good for you*


----------



## coppperpot (Oct 6, 2005)

You can never pull sugar and have a clear sugar at the end. Clear sugar is nearly always used for pouring but can be used in some moulding techniques also. hope this helps


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Appreciate the tip. I realize that now. Matter of fact I did a piece over the weekend with poured sugar. Used playdough and a small cake tin lined with foil for molds. Of course the playdough was shot had to throw it away but it worked great.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

I have a recipe that calls for 10% of an ingredient. How do I figure how much to add?


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

CR,
Sometimes this is a percent of bulk. If you had 50 oz. water, 50 oz sugar. 10 percent would be 10 oz.
Unless it states 10% of an ingredient. If you're stuck, email me the formula.
pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

No, this is stating add 10%. So if I have say 24 oz water 24 oz sugar then 10% would be 4.8 oz.


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

sounds right


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

OK. I think I have the formula down. But heres the kicker. What if I have say 4 oz corn syrup now let me do the math here and you can tell me if I am right.

24oz sugar + 24oz water + 4oz syrup= 52 x 10% = 5.20oz.

Hey Pan do you round up and down. Like if its over 5 round up or under 5 round down.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Just started into getting into the sugar thing a few months ago, fingers and thumbs have constant blisters....

You can get fairly clear cast sugar by using this flowing recipie: 
1000 gr fine sugar
250 gr water
200 glucose I use White or clear corn syrup, works just as good...
boil to 135 C
add in colouring, liquid is fine, powdered must be dissoovled with some kind of alcohol...
at 150 C add in 20 drops of tartaric acid*

Tartaric acid crystals can be found at u-brew wine/beer places. You must dissovle this with equal amounts of hot water to crystals, by weight.

If you want an opaque look pour in a slurry of calcium carbonate, also found at u-brew places

Lightly oil your rings or what ever you want to use for casting. You can even use plasticine for odd shapes, but it has to be plasticene, at art and hobby shops, not the cheap kid's stuff. Lay a strip of oiled alum foil inside the edges of these forms for easy removal.

Humidy is the #1 enemy. If you can get hold of nougat lacquer, spray it on your pieces, but you will still have to store them . Store them in an airtight container. ( I use the CAMBRO catering transport cases. 1/2 sheet pans slide easy in there.) but use a pan of silica gel crystals (camera shops should have this) or a lump of quick lime.


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Looks like a good recipe but do you have the measurements in english not quite up on that metric deal yet. I have yet to be able to find tartaric acid where I live I use cream of tartar. Have tried corn syrup but I have found that it makes the sugar brittle and more prone to crystallization. Maybe its me I do not know but thats been my experience with corn syrup.Good to hear someone else is getting involved in the art the more the better I say. Let me know about that recipe in english measurements. Good to have you on board.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Remember that old movie "The Great Escape", the one with Steve McQueen? Remember James Garner? (Rockford files...). He was a class "A" scrounger, and that is what I am, and probably every other serious cook. Like I said, try the U-brew places for tartaric acid. Cream of tartar will work-for a while- but doesn't dissolve very well. I can get glucose, but only in 50# drums, so I'd rather use corn syrup. I've got some show pieces that are over 3 mths old made with corn syrup, so I've got no problems there.

Nougat laquer can be gotten at high-end chocolate suppliers, but here I have to give you some top secret information: Laquer, that is, the dried sap of certain trees is an edible product. It dries very hard and shiny making it usefull for furniture applications, and has been for centuries. What the furniture people do is dissolve the sap flakes in wood alcohol, or turpentine, which makes the laquer easy to apply, the turpentine disolves, leaving a film of rock-hard laquer on the wood. Wood alcohol is poision, but regular alcohol sure isn't... What you're getting in those $30.00 spray bombs of nougat laquer is laquer flakes dissolved in pure alcohol and stuffed into a pressurized can. You can get the laquer flakes at wood shops or places like Lee Valley, and spray it on with a pipette: Two tubes joined at a 90 angle with a gap inbetween, one end goes into what ever you want to spray, the other into your mouth. When you blow gently liquid is sucked up and sprayed out at the gap inbetween the two tubes. Crude, maybe, but very effective.

Get yourself an electronic scale. Small ones (up to 2 kg/5lbs) go for around $50.00. Bakers have been using them since Egytians were doing their graffitti thing on the pyriamid walls; well, maybe not electronic scales... Seriously though, you'll find yourself much faster and more accuarate with scales, less dirty measuring tools to clean up too, and increasing, decreasing recipies as well as costing them out are far easier to do with weights, especialy metric. The metric system is the only system designed by scientists to make sense--not based on some dead King's appendage length, or how far a horse named "Spot" can canter carrying a rider weighing 18 stone, or the boiling point of mercury...


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

When I cast bases, I use alum foil as the bottom. I rub the foil over a screen to get a checkerboard effect or scrunch it up and straighten it out again, and then pour my sugar ontop of this. It looks pretty good, just trim the foil after casting. For a CD effect you could use the foil base and with a scotchbrite pad rub the foil in circualr motions, then set your ring on top and cast. Clear CD with a silver back and that "hologram" effect?


----------



## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey guys,
Please be careful with alcohol. It can be deadly in small amounts if ingested to fast and it is very very flamable.It's so flamable it is used for fuel. I think.
pan


----------



## cakerookie (Sep 10, 2005)

Good ol Pan. Yeah you are right about the flame part. Thats why we take pans off the heat to add alcohol. Don't want to lose any eyebrows! And they do use it for fuel in alcohol funny cars.We humans use it to get drunk and fall down and people say we have a drinking problem we don't! We drink, we get drunk, we fall down no problem!
Pretty good huh, Pan.


----------



## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Nah, that's why I've got that 50% "For Baking use only" rum, brandy, and kirsch for....


----------

