# Looking for a cheaper but good starter Gyuto



## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

I am ultimately looking to get a Konosuke HD2 but wanted to get a knife that could be used as a starter knife, and be a good knife that I can  use to get used to sharpening,  as I don't want to  ruin a 250$+ blade.

I see the Tojiro DP as a really liked knife, and I see it for 70$ on CKTG, but not too sure if there's a better choice, or something cheaper?  I also see the Kanehide TK as a liked knife, but it's a bit more than the Tojiro.

One user said I should find a really cheap knife on ebay, but I figured getting a decent knife that could be used, would be better that a cheap crap knife that I only use for sharpening.

Thoughts on a few different knives that would be good for a starter?

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Price:  Max 100$, but would like as cheap as possible.

Knife Type:  Gyuto

Knife Size: 240mm max

Knife Handle:  Would prefer The traditional Japanese handles, but the cheaper knives seem to be western handles so if that's the case I might have to stick to western.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Get a basic carbon steel blade for learning sharpening.
> 
> The Tojiro has a VG-10 core and that steel is notoriously difficult.
> 
> A Fujiwara FKH with japanesechefsknife.com will do the job.


I noticed that it was VG-10, but wasn't sure about the sharpening properties, thanks for the info, good call on that steel .

I see that both JCK and CKTG are priced the same, so I guess it doesn't matter where I get it from...?

The Kanehide TK I noticed went up in price and I think is it's own proprietary steel.

Are there any other ones, or do you think the Fujiwara is my best bet? Carbon is the easiest to sharpen, compared to stainless/semi-stainless...? It should also get me prepared for cleaning my knives during use!

Would you say 240mm? I sometimes feel like a smaller blade might be nice, but everyone tells me to go big....


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

That's about all you can get in the price range.  If you increase to like $125-150, there are other options.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

There's cheap clad carbon steel knives, more typically Kurouchi or some other rustic look clad carbon knives under 100. Handles are generally cheap and rough with plastic ferrules, blades are on the thick side, possibly wavy grind/uneven cladding, but you can do whatever you want to them and not feel so bad about scratching them up. If you thin them some and get some good sharpening jobs in, they will perform decently. Tojiro Shirogami and Yamashin are some example. BluewayJapan on ebay has some others like that too. I've also seen on Ebay some Tanaka Nakiris for under $60.

How much you can use these will partly be a function of what comes out of your sharpening over time. Have fun!


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm 5'4 with smallish hands for my height and a counter+end grain board that is a bit too tall for my liking, and I still won't pick using my 210s (I had these first) over my 240s (bought these more recently). Especially when you do get to those nicer knives, you'll kick yourself for getting a shorter knife simply for a price difference, if that is your concern.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> That's about all you can get in the price range. If you increase to like $125-150, there are other options.


Thanks, I feel that I shouldn't spend too much on a knife since I don't plan on using this too long before I get the HD2.

Do you think the Fujiwara is a good choice?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fujiwara2.html


foody518 said:


> There's cheap clad carbon steel knives, more typically Kurouchi or some other rustic look clad carbon knives under 100. Handles are generally cheap and rough with plastic ferrules, blades are on the thick side, possibly wavy grind/uneven cladding, but you can do whatever you want to them and not feel so bad about scratching them up. If you thin them some and get some good sharpening jobs in, they will perform decently. Tojiro Shirogami and Yamashin are some example. BluewayJapan on ebay has some others like that too. I've also seen on Ebay some Tanaka Nakiris for under $60.
> 
> How much you can use these will partly be a function of what comes out of your sharpening over time. Have fun!





foody518 said:


> I'm 5'4 with smallish hands for my height and a counter+end grain board that is a bit too tall for my liking, and I still won't pick using my 210s (I had these first) over my 240s (bought these more recently). Especially when you do get to those nicer knives, you'll kick yourself for getting a shorter knife simply for a price difference, if that is your concern.


Thanks for the tips, I guess that something has to do when you get a cheap knife, and handles and stuff are first, then quality of blades I would assume.

Thanks for the tips on the blade size, have you tried 270's or 300's? Some people like 270's, but I feel 240 is prob the sweet spot, but maybe not? After awhile these bigger knives don't seem that big to me.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Fukiwara FKH is a good choice especially for the price, on getting a working blade. The reactivity will needed to be controlled, up to you how to do so. 

Millions is right, at that slightly higher price range you have more options. For example Gesshin Uraku in white #2. It will be a good knife coming to you with no problems, won't be a project knife, has a wa-handle that won't be of poor quality.

On the sizes...I'll get back to you on that. Truthfully I have some 270mm but I haven't used either. One I got when I started getting nice things I got that first 270mm gyuto, but my longest previous chefs knife before I discovered Japanese knives was 6.5 inches...too big of a difference at that time and it was obvious as soon as I opened the box. Then I fell mostly out of infatuation with the Damascus aesthetic. The other I haven't used because I'm still deciding if I want to let it patina or keep it polished. I'll pull the latter out and use it a bit and let you know. 
I will say that the first time I used a 240mm after having 210s my first thought was "oh this is so much better" rather than immense awkwardness or discomfort.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

240mm is big enough to do all normal chef knife tasks.  270mm is more efficient if you do a lot of prep and you have the space.  I use a cleaver now, which has teh functional flat spot of a 270mm.  But really I use 5 sides of the cleaver, not just the edge.

Haven't used FKH personally to comment.  Tosho had some HD2 in stock last time I looked.  Also if you're planning on upgrading anyway, why not spend the money on a petty knife that you want to keep and use in addition to the HD2?  You can try out different steels, different makers, and learn to sharpen just the same on a petty


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

foody518 said:


> Fukiwara FKH is a good choice especially for the price, on getting a working blade. The reactivity will needed to be controlled, up to you how to do so.
> 
> Millions is right, at that slightly higher price range you have more options. For example Gesshin Uraku in white #2. It will be a good knife coming to you with no problems, won't be a project knife, has a wa-handle that won't be of poor quality.
> 
> ...


Thanks, want somethign cheap, already have a uraku.


MillionsKnives said:


> 240mm is big enough to do all normal chef knife tasks. 270mm is more efficient if you do a lot of prep and you have the space. I use a cleaver now, which has teh functional flat spot of a 270mm. But really I use 5 sides of the cleaver, not just the edge.
> 
> Haven't used FKH personally to comment. Tosho had some HD2 in stock last time I looked. Also if you're planning on upgrading anyway, why not spend the money on a petty knife that you want to keep and use in addition to the HD2? You can try out different steels, different makers, and learn to sharpen just the same on a petty


Thanks a lot. Not sure what Tosho is, but have a link? CKTG said they will be getting some in at some point relatively soon, so I figured I'd grab something now, and wait.

I guess I could get a petty also, figured a nice cheap gyuto would work, but maybe I should think of something else.....


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Get to sharpening your uraku!  make that knife shine

Tosho knife arts


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

foody518 said:


> Get to sharpening your uraku! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif make that knife shine
> 
> Tosho knife arts


It's a gift i got for my dad, and he doesn't want to sharpen it much, so I'm getting my own knife to work with lol... I feel the uraku is also something I wouldn't want to mess up by sharpening incorrect.

The cheaper, but easier steel I can use, the better it will be .

Plus... The Uraku is Stainless.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

The thing is, if you feel that way about the Uraku, you're gonna be likely to not really want to use (and therefore have to sharpen) the Konosuke much when you get it, for fear of messing it up. Imo you'd want to be at a point where you can get exactly what kind of edge you want in the Uraku, cleanly, before then. You might as well practice in something with no grind issues, which are somewhat few knives in that cheap price range, and have already been brought up. 

Edit because I derped and didn't read Lazagna's post very carefully. You'll probably want to get to a point where you could sharpen something like a gift knife Uraku without being afraid of doing it incorrectly or marring it, before getting the Konosuke, in which case I definitely support your interest in getting something cheaper to practice on. But you also want to see if you can make your dad a sharpness addict! Deliver him edges so nice he's going to want to keep them maintained at a high level. 

Sharpening stainless is fine. The Uraku isn't VG10 or anything that has a horrid rep about sharpening/burrs. It won't feel as nice, and it will probably take somewhat longer than carbon steels, but the first 5-6 knives (Two VG10) I ever sharpened were stainless, and they all ended up better after passing through my hands than without. 2 were some Farberware Pro Forged (santoku and meat cleaver) I dug up from inheriting other people's stuff that I ended up gifting to friends or their parents who said they were the sharpest knives they've ever used. It's not that hard to make positive strides. If you have decent stones then you won't face frustrating problems with abrading stainless steel.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

foody518 said:


> The thing is, if you feel that way about the Uraku, you're gonna be likely to not really want to use (and therefore have to sharpen) the Konosuke much when you get it, for fear of messing it up. Imo you'd want to be at a point where you can get exactly what kind of edge you want in the Uraku, cleanly, before then. You might as well practice in something with no grind issues, which are somewhat few knives in that cheap price range, and have already been brought up.
> 
> Edit because I derped and didn't read Lazagna's post very carefully. You'll probably want to get to a point where you could sharpen something like a gift knife Uraku without being afraid of doing it incorrectly or marring it, before getting the Konosuke, in which case I definitely support your interest in getting something cheaper to practice on. But you also want to see if you can make your dad a sharpness addict! Deliver him edges so nice he's going to want to keep them maintained at a high level. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> Sharpening stainless is fine. The Uraku isn't VG10 or anything that has a horrid rep about sharpening/burrs. It won't feel as nice, and it will probably take somewhat longer than carbon steels, but the first 5-6 knives (Two VG10) I ever sharpened were stainless, and they all ended up better after passing through my hands than without. 2 were some Farberware Pro Forged (santoku and meat cleaver) I dug up from inheriting other people's stuff that I ended up gifting to friends or their parents who said they were the sharpest knives they've ever used. It's not that hard to make positive strides. If you have decent stones then you won't face frustrating problems with abrading stainless steel.


Originally he wanted it for Sushi, but I wanted to get him an overall knife in stainless. He still wants to use it only for sushi, and doesn't want to sharpen "that much," but it's something he's going to have to learn to do, and I will end up getting him another sushi knife, so he can use this for other things.

I want my own knife, regardless of the HD2, because I want to use it a lot, and it to be my own. I don't want to sharpen the Uraku, and mess it up, since it's his, and it's a gift. Nor would he want to mess it up, so a cheaper knife we can use, will be best.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

This is a quick post while the rest of mine is with the mods because I put up a link - Tosho prices are Canadian dollars, if that offers a bit of relief. Current exchange rate is 1 USD to 1.46 CAD


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Prepped dinner with my 270mm gyuto. Felt fine, but I didn't need even close the whole blade length for what I was cutting (carrots, shiitakes). Didn't feel super awkward to hold and use. It might be the perfect length for halving watermelons though...I'll see when they're back in the supermarkets.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

Getting back to the original question, under $100, for a carbon steel traditional Japanese handled 240 mm gyuto, you might want to look at a Tojiro F-695, with a Shirogami (White No. 2) blade, and Kurouchi cladding. ChefKnivesToGo sells it for $60. That's right at the minimum for free shipping by Mark within the USA. The web page is: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshitk24wa.html

Personally, while I have and use 270 mm blades, I mostly reach for either a 240 mm or a 255 mm blade. I generally find the 270 mm to be overkill when cooking for myself.

If you want stainless and you're willing to go up to $110, then the MAC BK-100 is a good knife. Good length (255 mm), good profile as a gyuto, good steel (same as the MAC Professional), same thickness and stiffness as the MAC Professional MBK-95. It's not as "cool" as the Professional (the knife lacks a metal bolster), but is a good workhorse. Sharpens as well as all of the other MAC;s. Strictly a western handle, though.

Hope that helps

GS


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

By the way, about blade length...

What is your cutting board size?  

That probably will determine what your practical maximum blade length will be.

GS


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

Galley Swiller said:


> Getting back to the original question, under $100, for a carbon steel traditional Japanese handled 240 mm gyuto, you might want to look at a Tojiro F-695, with a Shirogami (White No. 2) blade, and Kurouchi cladding. ChefKnivesToGo sells it for $60. That's right at the minimum for free shipping by Mark within the USA. The web page is: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshitk24wa.html
> 
> Personally, while I have and use 270 mm blades, I mostly reach for either a 240 mm or a 255 mm blade. I generally find the 270 mm to be overkill when cooking for myself.
> 
> ...





Galley Swiller said:


> By the way, about blade length...
> 
> What is your cutting board size?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips GS, much appreciated... I thought there was a cheaper Tojiro, odd the carbon is less expensive than the semi-stainless (I guess stainless is more in demand).

Would you say the Tojiro would be better than the Fujiwara that's 20$ more, or since it's cheaper, it's a better buy for my needs?

AS for cutting board size I use... plates....jk 

I have a hi-soft home sized board, which isn't very big at all...

I'm pretty sure it's this one http://korin.com/HiSoft-Cutting-Board

Thanks 

EDIT: I see the Tojiro, but the steel doesn't look all that nice. I've heard that style is usually to make things cheaper, and it looks like the knife is chipped in some pics (I know it's a stock, but still).

The fuji looks nice...

The issue is western handle vs the traditional handle. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a western handled knife though.

EDIT: I also read the Fujiwara uses a "Low Grade" Quality of carbon steel and mentioned "SK-4/5" what's the SK ratings?

Thanks for any advice!


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Tojiro Shirogami - expect it to have fit and finish issues indicative of the low price. It is more likely than not a solid several hours 'project knife' to get it cutting how a thinner knife with a more consistent grind starts out with. The Fujiwara you won't have to put hours of work to get it to be thin and nice enough to cut well. 

Search Zknives steel chart (I would link, but the last time I tried to put in a link...well, the post still isn't on this thread yet) for SK4 (SK4 has higher carbon content than SK5). 0.9-1% carbon content, fairly respectable. It is an expected steel for the price range. My understanding is that complaints with it are smell related because it has a somewhat higher sulfur content. You'll want to force a patina or otherwise mitigate its reactivity. Keep it away from the most acidic or harsh things for a while, cut some milder stuff to start out with. 

A quick note on blade lengths, I'm working on a 24x18 board. If I had a HiSoft board like yours, I'd probably not go for 270mm. 240mm is a good length.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks, I was actually going to ask what the "bad smell/taste" was about....  Is there any issue with the food, or it just smells a bit funk?  

What foods should I stay away from?  I usually cut onions, tomatoes, garlic, and sometimes cilantro.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

First, about size.

The link to the cutting board was for a small board - 15.75 inches X 11.5 inches.  That's a small board.  At maximum, a 240 mm blade would be comfortable on that.  Even a 210 mm blade would be appropriate.  I would consider a 270 mm blade to be not only overkill on that size board, but rather unwieldly.

The Tojiro F-695 has Kurochi cladding.  As far as I am concerned, the cladding is there mostly for aesthetics, and just a little stiffness.  It's somewhat the same philosophy as Damascus cladding, only to appeal to those who want a "rustic" look.  If you don't like it, you can always just abrade it off.  I would do that with the finest wet/dry sandpaper I could find, with the cheapest mineral oil I could find as a lubricant (Safeway food grade mineral oil at $3.49 per pint?).  It's your call whether you would want to keep it or not.

The critical steel is the core: shirogami (White No. 2).  That's the steel which has the edge - and that's where the performance lies.  White No. 2 is much more highly regarded than SK4.

Now, the handle isn't anything to write raves about - it's probably as simple as possible, with a plastic ferrule.  But it is a WA handle (traditional Japanese), and that's what you said you preferred in your first posting.

And this is a Japanese-style knife: not just in appearance, but also in delivery, much more than the FKH.

I'm guessing that you want this knife principally as a knife to develop sharpening skills with.  I'm also guessing that you want to experience as close to a Japanese knife as possible.  In the combination of these two factors, I would go for the Tojiro F-695.  

Yes, the edge is probably very crude.  That's just the way that traditional Japanese blades are delivered.  It will give you a chance to really practice some sharpening skills, including thinning behind the edge.

But if you want to try a knife closer to what a Western user would have, then the Fujiwara FKH would be more appropriate.

Your call.

In both cases, the steel will be reactive, where (after sharpening), you will need to passivate the surface of the blade with a patina.  I would suggest having a batch of sacrificial onions at hand, that you can chop so you can force that patina.

Galley Swiller


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

My concern for the OP, after reading that the intent is to be using the knife quite a bit at least for a few months, is I'm just hoping that Tojiro Shirogami is not very solidly a project knife. It's nice to be able to assess the merits of your angle holding and ability to make clean bevels without thick wavy cladding or other cheap knife 'you get what you pay for' issues being complicating factors.

I've got a project knife (KU, soft iron clad, white #1) I'm messing around with, and I'll put up some candid pictures of what it looks like right now, with a couple of hours thinning/sharpening work in, and honestly, many more to go before I'll be happy with it (it still wedges in carrots and daikon like crazy). I don't think I'd feel all that good if this was my only gyuto, knowing what my other knives cut like and they don't need hours of work sunk into them.





  








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The metal under the Kurouchi finish is somewhat rough and uneven, with high and low spots, as well as pits.





  








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It's thick! Splits daikons part way through the cut. Feels even more wedgy after I got the Ikazuchi.





  








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Wavy cladding has made it hard for me to hit the exact same spots in the cladding trying to polish it back up after thinning (not a good idea to leave the soft-iron cladding on 220 grit, coarser scratch patterns are more rust prone because it's harder to wipe and get the water totally out of the scratches/gouges). I spent over an hour yesterday hitting the cladding with pink brick 220 -> 500 -> 1200 -> Aoto. There's still some spots I can't hit with the stones yet because of how thick adjacent portions of the cladding are.

I think I've now sunken more time into this knife than my previous project knife (Artifex 52100) :O


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

+1 the Tojiro

I have one and it was an early knife I bought and I still wont part with it. I've thinned, sharpened, knocked it around, loaned it out... oh and cut quite a bit with it too

It makes you feel like a sharpening champ on the stones and the edge you get is great

It has so much wrong with it, and so much so much going for it - a runt of the litter with great character

As for patina and smell. Mine still smells even now. There is zero patina anywhere on it. I've cut all sorts from lemons, pineapples, loads of tomato's and onions, left it on the side wet for a bit, and as soon you pick it up it's like a greyhound at the gate

Can you tell I have a soft spot for it


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

bonesetter said:


> +1 the Tojiro
> 
> I have one and it was an early knife I bought and I still wont part with it. I've thinned, sharpened, knocked it around, loaned it out... oh and cut quite a bit with it too
> 
> ...


What's wrong with it? lol.

So the smell lasts a long long time...? So that's not a bad thing?

So it wont Patina at all, should I force one to get rid of the smell? any taste?? The Patina would form on the white #2 part, and not the cladding, which might be something semi-stainless or...? I didn't really read any descriptions, so not sure if it's m,entioned, I'll go check it out anyways 

Yeah soft spot .. Love hate relationship haha. I like the talk about the sharpening though.

Thanks all.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Sometimes these knives come with a thin layer of some sort of lacquer which will make it seem non-reactive until the lacquer starts wearing off. If mine came with a lacquer, I must have used acetone and wiped it off immediately.

Cheap soft iron cladding is ridiculous. Cutting pineapples might make the cladding steel reek of vinegar. I'm avoiding cutting pineapples with my more reactive cladding knives for now.

It should be soft iron cladding, looks like a bead blasted effect to emphasize the core/cladding contrast. CKTG listing mentions that the blade is fully reactive. Different surface finishes I believe will affect the visibility/formation of a patina, so the bead blasting might inhibit noticeable patina formation. Thinning a lot with stones will kind of end up with a similar color as the bead blast/starting haze finish, but I noticed more patina formation on the cladding that got hit with my thinning. Cutting mainly veggies didn't do much of anything except maybe make some different shades of gray/dark gray. When I sliced up a medium rare steak with my Yamashin, I got some crazy wicked blues, but they didn't stick for very long (cut other things, then thinned again, so it's gone).


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## bonesetter (Nov 11, 2015)

What's wrong with it?

Here are it's cons:

The Tojiro shirogami ITK 240mm wa-gyuto is a inexpensive knife that sacrifices a lot to meet a price point. Based on the example I have and what I have e-gleaned,, the fit and finish is poor, with a sharp spine and area where your finger will meet the back of the blade; it had a very uneven grind of the blade road, with several overgrinds which I flattened; the handle is very plain wood with an ill-fitted plastic ferrule and the kurouchi finish wears away easily, exposing the soft iron cladding which is very reactive


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm not sure how I feel about a "lacquer"; or something put over the knife...  Nor do I feel about it "wearing off" possibly into my food, and other taste/smell issues....

I don't mind increasing my price a little, but not looking for a knife that has "sketchy" properties/characteristics...  IT seems the Tojiro is an okay knife to start with, if you want issues.

I want something that IC an sharpen and learn to cut and such with, without having to worry about coatings wearing off, smells, or other odd properties...

Plus, the way the FF and the handle and such sound, it sounds like a PITA, but gives you a decent steel...

I rather have something all around good, but I guess for a sharpening knife Idk.....

I would like to use this all around though.... but maybe I should get something that I just use for sharpening?  But then when I get my good knife, I would be using that a lot more, and would have to sharpen that more...

Plus, I would have to cut a lot of stuff with this "sharpening knife" then sharpen it, or else I wont know the full effects.  I could just sharpen a sharp knife, but that doesn't really do anything fort me lol .


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

The protective lacquer is not uncommon on carbon steel knives.  If you are a knife maker you don't want your stuff rusting in storage or shipping.  The user is supposed to remove it with acetone.


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## lasagnaburrito (Jun 9, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> The protective lacquer is not uncommon on carbon steel knives. If you are a knife maker you don't want your stuff rusting in storage or shipping. The user is supposed to remove it with acetone.


So uh... Do sellers give this information out, or what? This is the first time I've heard of this, and you know how long I've been asking knife questions....

If we dont' remove it, how bad is it?

Is it only on carbon? I have an SS Uraku, but I would asume the SS wouldn't matter, since it's SS, and the laquer sems to be for rust prevention??


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I haven't read or heard of it being on stainless. It's not a particularly big deal one way or another. It's just that when I read about people's initial experiences with cheaper knives I know have the soft iron cladding steel remarking that it's not very reactive, I immediately consider that the knife they are talking about either has the lacquer, or has a surface finish like bead blasting that seems to inhibit patina formation or visibility.

What will happen if you don't remove it is that it will come off spottily based on where it might abrade or otherwise fall off of it first. It's not meant to be a forever finish. It will make patina formation look godawful because of the spottiness when it starts coming off. 

The lacquer does what oiling the blade does for a home user, except for from the maker's side, the time that knife might be in storage/not yet sold is indeterminate, and lacquer is a more durable rust prevention method than oil.

How to tell if it's there - I've had at least one knife with it, and couldn't quite tell 100% when I got the knife, since I didn't have any experience for what to look for. Take a paper towel or something similar and fold it up, use acetone on a portion of the knife and wipe, and see if you can tell if there is some comparative difference in how the blade looks where you rubbed at vs not. If so, acetone and wipe the rest of the blade. Then rinse and scrub the blade with soap and water, towel dry.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

LasagnaBurrito said:


> Since I've never sharpened before, if I dont' sharpen at the correct angle, then will I mess up the knife permanently, or just need someone to fix it who knows what they are doing?
> 
> I hear we should use sometihng like 15% angle, but I also have heard 30%, and CKTG has this chart on one of thieir knife guards but goes 5,10, 20, and 30%, so I'm confused on the angle...
> 
> ...


Dunno how I missed this earlier.

I've got an angle cube that helps me roughly understand what angles I'm at for sharpening. Having some picture guides, cardstock or wood wedges cut into the desired angles definitely helps to solidify what some common (or very close to them) angles to use look/feel like, for example 15deg.

Start with something in the range that more or less works, 10-20 degrees per side. The best advice I have been (repeatedly, even though it sucks because it's not an easy, definitive answer) told is to sharpen, cut with the knife, analyze what is going on (likes/dislikes, food you're cutting, cutting board, wedging, steering, edge retention, toothy/not toothy, etc.) and then adjust accordingly the next time. The angle(s) you want are functions of the considerations you prioritize, and there isn't one absolute answer, even for a given knife, because we as users stress different things. As an example, I read some stuff recently that got me stressing as a lefty user about what I should be doing for sharpening J-knives, but I basically got told that if the knife really is steering and being a problem, to simply sharpen in a way to combat that (trial and error til I get to somewhat that works), and I haven't messed up bad enough to have consistently perceptible steering.

So that addresses the nebulous nature of 'correct'. As a relatively novice sharpener, I would recommend you just aim for building up your angle holding skills and trying to achieve even looking bevels per side (note that this does not necessarily mean same width bevels on both sides). If you're starting with a knife that has a decent looking edge bevel, it won't do too bad to just follow that for the first few sharpenings. Unless you start with a sub 1000 grit stone and freak out and go at it for hours on end, you won't get close to messing up the knife all that much, certainly not permanently.

Hope this helps. It's irking that there aren't really simple and comprehensively correct answers, but there are good guidelines. Most of all, there is trial and error, learning to understand your sharpening and your cutting, to get the best results for you.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

There are lots of just fine no problem at all gyutos available for


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

This isn't so much about what angle to choose, but rather on how to have a tool capable of letting you find that particular angle by feel.

I use a set of machinist's angle blocks, with a home-made stand to keep what I want upright. The huge advantage is that I can set up the stand with the blocks I want, and then I can directly feel the angle, rather than squint at a screen and jiggle the angle cube. And yes, I have an angle cube - and have tried the "hold and look" routine. Believe me, feeling is much better than looking.

Angle block sets are easily found on eBay for as low as about $30 a set for basic and low precision (plus or minus 20 seconds of arc) angle blocks. Of course, plus or minus 20 seconds of arc is the same as plus or minus 1/180th of a degree. That's accuracy overkill.

My stand is several pieces of glued-together plywood, with the top being two fixed and glued pieces, one having an edge at 90[sup]o[/sup] to the front edge to the stand, and the other having its edge at an angle which allows for a wedge to be fitted in to hold the pieces of angle block I want to use. The wedge and the second top piece are sawn from the same block, so that they will let me do the wedging over the length of the angle blocks, allowing for a very firm grip to hold the angle blocks.

The overall thickness of the stand is roughly similar to the thickness of many of my waterstones. The wedge and top pieces are preferably about 3/8 inch thick, so as to accommodate both a single angle block (1/4" high base) or 2 blocks (1/2" for 2 bases).

Galley Swiler


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

To get a visual read on how your knife needs to sit on the stone you can make perfectly fine angle wedges with poster board and dime-store (showing my age here) protractor, and some superglue to harden and water proof.

I keep a 14deg one sitting in the unused steel hole in my knife block.  Never bothered making others as I can guess other angles adequately enough from there.

Rick


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