# Looking for a Gyuto - an alternate to a Mac Pro?



## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Hello. This is my first post here after lots of lurking and searching for “my” answer here and FF, KF, eGullet, etc.  Like many noobs to J-knives I’m looking for a good 240mm gyuto.  Warning it’s long as I’m trying to provide some insight to my background and wants.  

I’m a reasonably good home cook.  My knife skills are OK, but not up to a professional, production standard.  I use a loose pinch grip and am working on my claw.  Cooking is a hobby and minor passion.  I’ve had mostly Henckels 4 starsfor the last 20 years or so.  An 8” chef’s knife (my current go to) a 6” chef’s knife and an assortment of slicers/others.  I was never impressed with the German knives  as they were too thick and stiff.  They were nowhere near sharp out of the box.  It tried lots of “easy” sharpeners (what I now consider gimmick) and some (bad) professional sharpening.  A couple of years ago I got a sharpmaker that helped but took so lonnnnng.  I’ve since augmented with a 325/1200 DMT Duosharp, which has let me try reprofiling to something around 15/20.  I finally have reasonably sharp knives.  But they don’t hold an edge very long and even sharp, unless I just use the tip, they tend to wedge a lot of foods rather than cut them. 

I want to go to the next step for both knives and sharpening.  Yes, I know that I need to step up my sharpening for a good J-knife.  After a bit of hinting, I received a Mac Pro 5” petty for Christmas, this has only served to increase my desire to upgrade.  Besides I’ll need to keep it sharp too.  I rather enjoy sharpening, but don’t want to make a religion of it.

I’d like to start with describing what I think my requirements are for the knife.  I know the MAC Pro is BDL’s (and some others) go to recommendation.  It would probably be a great first gyuto for me.  But I’m having a hard time getting over the graphics on the blade, it just sort of cheapens it for me.  I guess most of us are vain about something.  I prefer the French profile over something with a lot of belly.  I don’t use a lot of rocking when cutting.  I want something with great F & F (there’s that vanity again).  Probably stainless or semi-stainless, I don’t have to worry about my SO using (abusing) it as she doesn’t like large blades.  I’m pretty meticulous about caring for knives.  I suppose the Mastamoto VG is an option but I keep hearing it referred to as whippy.  But it’s such a relative, inexact term I don’t know if it’s that relevant.  I don’t mind a bit of flex in the blade.  I’ve also seen recommendationsfor,  and been tempted to consider Kikuichi TKC, Gesshin Ginga, Tadatsuna Inox, etc.   I should mention, I think I’ll stick with a yo handle.  The cheapest I will ever see the Mac Pro locally is $200 on sale.  There are lot’s of knives in that range.  I’m fine with going to$250 if that will get me something special.  I’m hoping for something I can grow into rather than a starter (I’d rather spend the money once and can buck up for the privledge).

I’m south of Vancouver, near the US border, so expect that I’ll have to import my choice.

I’m also looking for advice about freehanding vs an Edge Pro, but maybe that can wait for a bit as I’ve been pretty long winded already.

A side note, I’ve never seen such thoughtful responses on a forum as I have here.  I’m really impressed.  Any advice you'd care to share to help me on this journey is appreciated.

Bob


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Bob,

At your price range you're going to have to make a few small compromises but should get everything you want most. If the MAC's graphics deter you from its many other good points -- that's not unreasonable at all. FYI, the MAC graphics aren't nearly as bad in person as in illustration and they can be removed easily.

The Masamoto VG isn't particularly whippy as single steel, Japanese knives go. It's whippy compared to the MAC and some san-mai knives, but that's a different thing. If you don't accidentally put a lot of torque or sidewise flex because you have trouble keeping the knife square to and in the cut -- it won't bother you. Actually, where the flex becomes a problem, tends to come with relatively inexperienced professionals who are under a lot of time pressure and don't have reliable technique yet. It used to be something I worried about more, but so much feedback tells me it's not terribly important with home cooks -- especially those working on technique.

You really want to get your sharpening situation sorted before getting serious about buying a knife; but it's hardly too far in the future to start thinking about some of the possibilities.

The way I'd organize it is by figuring out:

1. *Carbon or Stainless, and/or Are the Advantages of Semi-Stainless Worth the Extra Expense?* A lot of the old reasons behind choosing carbon had edge taking and holding qualities behind them. But good modern stainless is so good, those things are less of a factor; and you always have to ask yourself whether you're a good enough sharpener to take advantage of them. Semi-stainless is pretty much carbon without the neediness but more expensive. I have two semi knives, and they're both my favorite and most used knives. Worth it? To me, yes.

2. _*Yo or Wa handle?*_ In the greater scheme of things, if you have a good grip (sounds like you do), and the handle isn't radically too big, too small, or wrong-handed, it doesn't make much difference beyond style points. You sound like a pretty stylish guy, and might want to give it some thought.

3. _*Laser, Very Very Thin, or Just Regular Japanese thin?*_ People who know a lot, in fact everything, tell me that lasers and other anorexic knives aren't a good choice for that first good knife unless the user has uber-skills. As with whippiness -- which is largely a consequence of super thinness -- I don't think home cooks who are working on their skills need to worry. The necessary skills don't take long to master as long as you consciously work on them. If you've got your heart set on one of the lasers, like a Gesshin Ginga or Tadatsuna Inox, go for it.

4. _*Flat Japanese or French Japanese Profile?*_ Presumably you're so over an old fashioned German profile. I like a French profile (certain amount of rock) because it suits my style. My favorite knives are Sabatier, Masamoto and Konosuke -- all of which have a very similar action. You may want something else, which is great. Because you're in the process of trying to develop your own cutting style, and will have an equal learning curve with just about any new knife, don't be afraid to let appearance matter.

5. _*How Much Money?*_

6. _*Retailer?*_ It ain't easy being a pimp Canadian sometimes. You say you're resolved to buying from the US. There are a couple of standout retailers here in terms of helping you find a really good knife for you. One is Mark at CKtG, and the other is Jon at JKI. Once you've pored through everything on the net, and if either sells one or more of your short list knives, you'll want to call and talk.

7. _*How Much Existential Angst?*_ By the time we've gone through a few posts and you've had some feedback from some of the other guys, you will indeed have established a short list of knives you'll be bound to love. That's a good thing.

*SHARPENING:*

You're beyond the sharpening orientation/pep talk. Thank you.

There's probably nothing you can add to the usual doubts and angst which comes in choosing between bench stones and a good gag like an Edge Pro.

There's no reason to be afraid of bench stones. You can learn to use them very well. It takes a while. Yes, there's some frustration. No, you won't wreck your knives. If you're going for a quality set, they're not money savers. By the time all is said and done, figure $300+ for four good stones, and a DMT XXC flattener. You can considerably lower the up-front costs by starting with two stones (Bester 1200, Suehiro Rika, e.g.) and flattening on dry wall screen; but be aware that once you get going you'll want the rest of the toys. Oh yes. You'll want them and you'll buy them.

Will you need a new "sharpening" steel? It kind of depends on what knife you're going to buy -- but considering that you have other knives and will be adding still more, you might as well. Unless and until you get into the real exotica, you don't need to spend more than $40 for an excellent rod.

EP is much easier to learn, and less anxiety provoking. It's not as flexible in terms of some blade geometries and acute angles; unless you get into sharpening tradtional "single bevel" (i.e., chisel or hamaguri edge) knives, the limitations shouldn't bother you. An EP is a lot more precise when it comes to doing things like multi-bevels. Everything I've said about the EP so far is applicable to the WEP.

An EP/Chosera kit runs around $300 at CKtG*. Because they use two stones at a time -- and for other reasons as well -- WEPs are more expensive than an EP Apex kit. However, the EP Professional (better base than the Apex) runs around the same as a WEP. If you're going to buy a sharpening gag I recommend the Chosera Kit.

Hope this helps,

BDL

PS. Disclosure. It appears I may be entering a commercial relationship with CKtG, probably doing "how to" and equipment review articles for their new newsletter.

PPS. More Disclosure. I don't have a commercial relationship with MAC (unfortunately); and don't own or use a MAC chef's knife. It's my most frequently recommended "first good western style" knife for a home cook because it ticks so many boxes for so many people. If I were buying a western handled, stainless, mass-produced, Japanese made, non-laser chef's it would probably be a Masamoto VG, mostly for its profile. But very few of those things interest me, I have three go-to, 10" or longer knives as it is, so that ain't happening either.


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## brandonknill (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm quite happy with my Misono Swedish Steel Gyuto; its carbon steel and very reactive though. However, if you dont mind the "patina look" and are willing to constantly clean the blade, then I think its a pretty good blade for the price (Though I was a sucker for the Dragon engraving).

The Masamotos are very nice knives, however I prefer my Mac Pro. Both are good knives and you cant really go wrong with either. The fujiwaras are a good buy considering the price.

On a side note, I would suggest browsing around http://japanesechefsknife.com


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Hi BDL, Wow! That didn't take long. Where ever do you find the time and patience for the newbie questions. Honestly though, I was hoping you'd chime in./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Great description on "whippy". You're right - it doesn't sound like as big a concern as I thought it might. I don't have any problem keeping the knife square and cook for relaxation, not pressure. I've got a slicer that would be the definition of whippy and I don't have a problem with it. I just wouldn't to want to use it for anything other than carving though.

I agree with you about my sharpening situation. My limited freehand experience on the DMTs leads me to believe I could pick up freehand sharpening with some work & practice. There's something Zen about it. OTOH, I'm attracted to the precision offered by the Edge Pro. It looks like the total cost for a good setup with either option is close to a push. The dollars aren't a big issue. I just need to get nudged off the fence. I will become a good sharpener (just maybe not a fanatic, but we'll see).

*Carbon or Stainless*…. I don't think I want the inherent neediness of carbon. Stainless has it's attractions for easy maintenance. On the other hand, I always wipe my knife after use (except for occasionally when cutting proteins, it sometimes gets left for a few minutes), so I expect semi stainless would work well for me too. From what I've seen the price premium doesn't seem that outrageous (yes, I've been pursuing CHtG, JKI, JCH, PF, etc.). 
*Yo or Wa *handle. I think I'd like to stick with a Yo handle. You right it doesn't seem like that big a deal, but it's what I'm used to. Maybe next time….. (I'm sure there will be a next time).
*Thinness*. Here I think I'm sticking with the advice of those who know better. I think Japanese thin (maybe a bit on the thinner side) is what would be best for me. A laser sounds cool, but as my first gyuto seems like it could be a bit of overkill. I suspect that Japanese thin will be a huge improvement. The Henckels were so thick.
*Profile*. Definitely a French Japanese profile. I think after my years of Henckels that going to a flat Japanese profile would be frustrating. There's only so much of a learning curve that I'm will to take on at once.
*Money *- this one isn't too hard. I like value & quality. I'm not looking for cheap. And I'm not looking to set a record for over-spending. My starting point for a budget was the MAC Pro ($170 from CKtG, in Canada $200 on sale -$250 retail). I'm thinking in the $200-250 range, I could go to $300 if the value was there. Oddly enough, it was the fact that the Mac Pro is on sale this week that finally got me off the pot to start driving toward a decision. 
*Retailer*, I've seen lots of positives about CKtG & JKI and have visited their sites, many times. I wasn't making a decision based on retailer, but I'm fine with both.
*Existential Angst. *Great question, even better insight. I'm not sure how to answer it. Definitely some as I've been trying to figure this out for a while now and researching/reading only goes so far. In some ways I feel I've been answering it all along. BTW, I haven't completely discounted the Mac Pro, but I' I'm looking to see if there's a better fit for me and my preferences. I suppose satisfying my biases fit in there too.
brandonknill - Thanks for the input. I think I answered the carbon question. Can you explain why you prefer the Mac Pro to the Masamoto (and which Masamoto)?

Thanks!


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Hey Bob,

I'm a new poster here as well and I'm from Coquitlam. I wanted to let you know that, while I can't help you make a decision on the knife itself, I can tell you that I just received my order from the aforementioned japenesechefsknife.com today.

I ordered two knives (Hattori HD-08 $213 and Kagayaki KV-2 currently on sale for $74) and with the $7 shipping, the total after Paypal's not-quite-accurate conversion rates, was $305. That order was placed on Thursday morning. 

The way that JCK shipped their knives was...well, I won't comment in too much detail, but the result was a duty-free delivery and the delivery timeline was phenomenal. So, if anything there catches your eye, it may be worth a look. I know that the JCK Hattori FH series gets pretty good reviews (it was just a bit more than I wanted to spend and I didn't like the look quite as much as the Hattori that I ordered) and I can tell you that my Hattori is gorgeous (as noted, I also had a bit of vanity involved in my choice). The Kagayaki looks pretty sweet with the handle that they've put on that as well. 

Just from a Canadian in the same area, I can tell you that my experience with them was phenomenal.

I will say as well that I placed an order over the weekend with CKTG (for a bread knife, some parings, an Idahone ceramic 'steel', and a smaller Tojiro santoku for my wife) that should arrive in Blaine for me to go and pick up on Friday (which means I can't get it until Saturday, probably, given Hagen's new 1 day turnaround policies).  That also being said, I did send them a question by email the same day and it has yet to be answered. Now, I know that emails can get lost in the fold, but I'm a bit disappointed by that given their reputation for excellent customer service (which allows me to give them the benefit of the doubt at this stage as to why it hasn't been answered).

Hope that gives you some helpful information and might help you decide what you want to get from where. 

Cheers,

Mike


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Also, I should note, that I agree with you on the MAC. I went to Cookshop to check out the MACs because I was confident that I'd get one given the great reviews but realized once I looked at it in person and held it that I didn't like it at all. I'm sure it's a wonderful knife but it just didn't suit my sensibilities.


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## mano (Dec 16, 2010)

Bob, not so long ago I was a pretty fair home cook looking to replace my Wusthoff with something better.  But I knew nothing of Japanese knives until BDL and others turned me on to them.  Eventually I settled on a laser Konosuke HD as my main knife and a Hattori HD for back up.  Two stones is all you'll need for now.

If you're interested in something used, I have a Misono 440 and a Masamoto HC I don't use.  Both are 240 yo gyuto's in great condition.  PM if you want more info.


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Hey back at you Deputy/Mike,  Nice to hear positive feedback about JCK.  They don't seem to get as much positive mention as some others (not that I've heard anything negative).  I've heard nice things about the Hattori FH - it is in the mix for consideration.  It's kind of tough making a decision without being able to see/touch them in person.  BTW, Blaine is pretty easy for me, I maintain a mailbox there and its an easy trip.  I'm pretty open about what I'm bringing back and have never been charged duty, etc. (a tip, use the Hwy 15 truck crossing) 

A question for those that might know, I've read in a number of places that there's no such animal as a yo handled laser.  Is that really true?  Does that bring the yo handled versions into consideration for someone who might not be looking for a true laser, but is OK with something on the thinner side?


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

I had the same feeling as you about not touching them or holding them but read enough posts here (especially BDL) saying that the feel in the store doesn't translate to much meaning in the long run and decided to accept that (although there were also several posts decrying that belief) as I didn't have much other choice, given our local selection...or lack thereof. I'm glad I didn't put too much weight on that because, at the end of the day, we have nothing but MAC, Mcusta (at Cookshop), whatever Cookworks sells (Shun and Global, I think), WS (Shun), and a handful of others. None of the good stuff, it seems.

Blaine's not too bad for me either...maybe 30'ish minutes each way if the bridge is alright and I just use Hagens (it's always worked out but is getting a bit pricey with some of their increases over the last while)...it's just the border that's the usual hiccup. I've also just taken to always being honest and have been called in for duty two or three times (always at the Truck Crossing), but it was never a big deal and, at the end of the day, it's the cost of importing goods. I've gotten away with some ridiculous imports, as well (always honestly - never hiding it), so I can't complain. 

If my Hattori is any indication, I'd put the FH near the top of my list for fit and finish and overall good looks. I'm going to have it near the top of my list when I go looking for my sujihiki in the coming months(ish). 

Can't answer your last question again - sorry, my knife knowledge isn't good enough, but good luck!


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## brandonknill (Jul 10, 2011)

BobH - They are both great knives. There is no specific reason why I like my Mac over the Masamoto (VG series) other than maybe loyalty. The MAC was my first decent knife and I developed a lot of my technique while using it. Is there a technical reason why I prefer the MAC over the Masamoto, no, I just find its the knife I'm always reaching for.

One more thing, Are you left handed or right handed? A lot of the Japanese knives are shaped to a 70/30 for RIGHT hand use.


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

brandonkill - Thanks for the answer, I really was curious.   I'm a rightie, so I'm fortunate that if knives come with an asymmetric edge they work for me.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

BobH said:


> Hey back at you Deputy/Mike, Nice to hear positive feedback about JCK. They don't seem to get as much positive mention as some others (not that I've heard anything negative). I've heard nice things about the Hattori FH - it is in the mix for consideration. It's kind of tough making a decision without being able to see/touch them in person. BTW, Blaine is pretty easy for me, I maintain a mailbox there and its an easy trip. I'm pretty open about what I'm bringing back and have never been charged duty, etc. (a tip, use the Hwy 15 truck crossing)
> 
> A question for those that might know, I've read in a number of places that there's no such animal as a yo handled laser. Is that really true? Does that bring the yo handled versions into consideration for someone who might not be looking for a true laser, but is OK with something on the thinner side?


Hi Bob

Seems I somehow goofed up my reply to this (maybe me, maybe something with my droid lol) that I sent on my cell, but sorry for that and will try again 

First on the laser question, I recently had a yo handled Konosuke HD gyuto and actually returned it for the wa handled style (the new flatter profile one as that was in stock at the time) and posted the measurements in a different thread, but the blade thickness was more similar than not. The largest change by memory was the length as it was right around 7/16" and next was the thickness near the handle and around 0.04" and most were only 0.01 to 0.02 change.

So not much difference, but wa handle one was deff thinner across the board.

I can not advise on the other brands your discussing, but personally decided that this mid to high $200's range made more sense than the much more expensive ones that I could not convince myself there was an equal amount of potential improvement (if any) to the increase in price, and the mid to high $100's range ones did not seem to offer enough advantage over the sub $100 range (which I already own and am or will compare it too etc) to make sense as well.

I know many of the popular first purchase suggestions fall in that $100-$200 range, and I have found outside of J knives the mid range products can be the real value or surprise performers, but when I compared the materials, reviews, and cost it just was not able to sell me.

I offer the following as someone who was pretty much in your position about 1-1/2 yrs ago and finally found my way to purchase a much more expensive knife than the the initial true entry level purchase I had made last year.

When I first read your original post in this thread I was thinking that everything you said except one or two things (wanting to spend more, and the mention of lasers) was leading to either a Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM 240mm gyuto suggestion as both of these excellent products are everything Henckels are not (trust me I had an assortment of Pro-S and Four Star and now both DP's and FKM etc) and due to their price points are seriously two of the best choices for a newbie to J knives, and especially someone who is not fully knowing what they want, what to expect, and want an affordable way to learn what these very different knives are all about before laying down serious dollars on a more highly regarded product "blindly" etc. I know it is all pretty much flying blind BTW, and that was a big part of my issue and concern as well.

I still believe that you would be happy with either of those choices as they just make sense etc, but since your also being drawn in by all the raves of so many other higher priced products (as I was myself lol) I want to address this idea as well since previous some have made a solid point of the potential savings of making the right choice up front, and not having to buy again in the future and either have duplicates or have to sell the old ones etc. I am still on the fence on this, but it may be your path to happiness 

One thing that stayed in the back of my mind after my initial purchase was the unknown factor of what would those other more expensive knives be like, and if they were really so much better than what I had decided on etc. It was not a haunting thing, but still one that came to mind many times when completely enjoying the insane difference between my new knives and my previous Henckels.

After owning the new ones for a while and getting a chance to put them to the sharpening stones, and work on improving or adjusting my sharpening skills as well as working on the changes to my knife skills to better compliment the knives etc I had decided that I needed to start researching my next knife purchase since though fully happy with what I had at that point I really wanted to experiment with something higher priced and more regarded as being of a superior quality and performance etc.

After a whole lot of research I decided on the Konusuke HD, and after even more consideration I decided to duplicate my gyuto rather than add to my "set" since it is my most used knife by far and if the HD was nearly as good as everyone was claiming I wanted one that I would get the most of out, I mean it was not cheap LOL.

I have had it only a short few weeks, and only have time to do an initial "short session" sharpening it, but so far it is fantastic. I use a light grip as you describe, and the only times I have seen a need to increase the grip has been a couple odd times to overcome items that stuck to the side of the blade as for most everything this one slides or just drops through.

After I have some more time with it I intend to do a comparison or review to try and help other new comers to better understand just what the differences are for those who do not have a real comparison or base level of J knives to make sense of all the info we find on the net. I really am not ready yet, and want to get more time to do some additional sharpening (and maybe thinning or convex the edge a little), more use time to compare the edge retention, and some side by side with the other knives before making any solid conclusions for the sake of accuracy.

That being said even tough so far I am loving the HD more every time I use it I will have to make a decision at some point just how much better it is than the others which I paid less for as a set of four (Fujiwara FKM 240 gyuto, Tojiro DP santoku, petty, and Wassabi 270 bread knife) and by less I mean nearly half (prices were lower last year too lol).

Just gyuto to gyuto in same length the HD was 3.5x the cost of the FKM and that is a whole lot to overcome.

In fairness to all these are completely different knives. Maybe not as different as a Henckels to Tojiro etc, but still very different. I understand the HD is partially hand made, had a steel that is produced in smaller quantity, and is itself produced in smaller quantity which we all know increases costs etc. but it also sees various benefits from this and they are serious ones at that.

It is much lighter, and feels even lighter in comparison to what the scales tell us, the steel is obviously superior (it sharpens as or more easily than the moly steel in the FKM, but is supposed to have edge retention beyond that of the harder to sharpen VG10 of the DP) and a pleasure to work with on both the stones and the board. I know there are others, but the point is there are advantages to spending more when you do your homework, but how the advantages stack up to the additional cost is still in the review stage.

I mean both the HD and FKM cut, chop, and slice wonderfully, and with so much less effort than my previous old knives it is a joke, but they do feel different, and are different as well. The HD I have is also flatter and will help with little flaws in technique at times, like when not fully cutting or chopping through something and that thin bottom layer that holds all your nice slices together, but I won't go into this more as not to add confusion.

In the end I believe you will be happy with just about every knife mentioned in this thread, but if your like me and looking for what will be the best or better decision you are going to have a bit more work to do. I can not suggest that everyone follow my path which was weighted slightly more on value or price to performance as I know that for many price is either not a concern, or just one that comes after they have a short list of higher cost items (I know this because sometimes I am "that guy" as well lol) and they will not find happiness with a true value product.

I hope that helps you find your way to a comfortable decision!


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Wanted to clarify or add some to the above.

I started to touch on just what to expect for the extra cost of many of the higher rated products etc, but missed my main point that so far everything I am finding shows that these improvements may, or may not be noticeable (well beyond appearance and design anyway) or a real benefit to many home cooks or even pro cooks that may not have ample experience or proper knife skills.

By that I mean simply that is your not using good techniques with your current knives or have already found your skills are advanced beyond your tools etc and maybe if you use some of the newer more popular inexpensive Chinese made models of the popular western brands etc you may not or actually your results may not benefit from the extra $ 100-$200 investment over the Tojiro or Fujiwara.

Again I do understand that looks and appearance are important to varying degrees for everyone so go with what you like, but after re reading an earlier post mentioning value I felt I needed to add this and that the Tojiro and Fujiwara offer the best value far as i am concerned.

On a side note much as I love the HD I have no plans to get rid of the Fujiwara since it just performs so well compared to what I would get for it so no sense not keeping it!


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Hi Lenny. Sorry for the delay in getting back here. I saw your post yesterday but needed to read through it a couple of time to get my thoughts in order. It was one of those, "must think, brain hurts" moments. Thanks sharing your experiences - that was quite a post!. Actually I'd already been following your other posts/threads too. It's funny, I think we're both trying to get to the same place, but with slightly different approaches.

In many ways you're correct, I could go the Tojiro or Fujiwara route and they'd be likely be perfectly fine, at least for a while. But I know I'd still keep looking for the next knife. I'm at that stage in life where I'm not really interested in entry level any more. Where I can afford it, I'd rather invest that bit extra and get something that I'd be really happy with. And lets face it, the difference we're talking about is $100-150, about what a decent (but not extravagant) meal with my wife would cost. Not a real big deal, and it lasts a lot longer than one night/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif! To quote BDL, "the heart wants what the heart wants". There's no sense fighting it.

I'd like to hear about how you've found adapting to the HD. I've read so many great reviews of it, but didn't really consider it, or the other lasers, as I've also read all of the cautions about lasers for someone without great knife skills (and then a caveat about how some newbies love them). It's funny, I didn't quite realize that some of the knives I mentioned in the first post were considered lasers until I went back and did some more rereading. I'm still not completely clear on whether any western handled knife is considered a laser. It sounds like a fine line.

I managed to find a small, local shop called Santoku Office that specializes in Japanese knives. Some very pretty items. Unfortunately they are mostly brands that I've never seen references to in the forums, so they don't serve as much of a reference point for me. The one they do have that I've seen mentioned is the Grand Cheff (only an 8" in stock though and their price was way out of line compared to Paul's Finest). I expect it's considered regular Japanese thinness (can anyone confirm that) and it didn't seem particularly thin to me at all. I think something on the thin side would probably fit me best. I also had a chance to handle some of their wa handled knives. I know it wasn't a definitive experience and I could probably adapt, but It reinforced my preference for a yo handle.

BTW, I haven't forgotten about sharpening. I was looking at the Edge Pro Apex Chosera sets at CKtG, but they're sold out at the moment. So, I think I'll keep thinking over the bench stone vs. gizmo decision while waiting to see when new stock will come in.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I've been listening to a lot of people and after spending some time talking about it with Jon at JKI am coming to the conclusion that all of the caveats and "STAY AWAY" warnings about lasers to home cooks who don't have great knife skills, including nearly all of those I've voiced myself, are -- not to put to fine a point on it -- a bunch of crap. 

If you're not in the kind of hurry new pros get into prepping for or on the line -- and you're not -- you can make whatever adjustments you need to make on the fly.  Furthermore after awhile, feedback from the knife itself will train you to keep it straight. 

Yes, there are things you should know about the limitations of a laser; and no, a laser isn't the right knife for everyone.  But if you've come to the conclusion that a Takayuki Grand Cheff is thick and graceless, you've made a definite statement about what you want.   Although, I'm wondering about the particular knife you tried.  Grand Cheffs usually run pretty darn thin. 

There are quite a few other good lasers besides the Konosuke HD.  I love my Konosuke HDs, but they're not the only lasers in the sea, and I suggest you look around at some of the others, like Gesshin Ginga, Suisun Inox Honyaki, Tadatsuna (especially if you want stainless), and Yusuke -- to name a few.   Mark and CKtG and Jon at JKI are wonderful resources.  Both will try and match you with the right knife, both know a lot about it, and neither is so in love with a sale that they'll try to push something that isn't absolutely right on you.   Don't be afraid to call and ask for their advice, because talking about knives is why they're in the business.  If you think they don't have a lot to say about their $200+ knives, you are so very wrong. 

Choosing and buying a knife is one thing; using it another; and using happily for a long time is yet another.  So much depends on sharpening. 

If you think the EP Chosera kit is the way to go -- and it's one of the best ways, certainly -- you can wait until Mark has them back in stock, or order an Apex Kit 1, or even one of the limited Professional kits and get the Chosera stones later.  The Choseras are more pleasant to use, but otherwise aren't meaningfully better (or at least not by much) than the "official EP" stones and tapes Ben makes for the EP.

BDL


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

BDL, I had to laugh out loud when I saw your response./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif It really put a smile on my face. I think the only person who's going to say you're full of crap is you. At least get away with it.

I'm not under time pressures when I cook and already keep the knife straight. If that's the biggest risk, I think I'm OK with the limitations of a laser. Let's see if I've got the other limitations right. Avoid bones (e.g., breaking down chickens) frozen food, really tough vegetables like a hard squash, be reasonably soft on the board. It ain't a cleaver or a can opener. OK so far?

A bit of clarification on the Takayuki Grand Cheff, it was a 210mm gyuto. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was thick or ungraceful, but I didn't find it close to scary thin either. Maybe a better way to say it isI didn't find it uncomfortably thin at all. It's certainly way thinner than my Henckels. But the thickness of my Henckels is a big reason I'm doing this in the first place. It's nice to find a reference point for understanding thinness in a J knife. I'm not fixated on a laser, but thin seems good, and so many of the good knives seem to be thin to very thin.

I'll try giving Mark and/or Jon a call. It's hard to find adequate time during the week unfortunately and I wasn't sure I'd catch them off hours.

If you have considerations I should think over for any specific knives, please don't be shy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. I get that you're trying to guide me to "my" decision rather than taking the simple route and just saying buy a xxxxxx. Correct?


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

actually, the tough veggies arent the problem. Twisting while cutting is. Anyways, i do believe that home cooks have a tendency to be much nicer to their knives than pros, so lasers work well there. However, i still dont believe they are good first knives.



BobH said:


> BDL, I had to laugh out loud when I saw your response./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif It really put a smile on my face. I think the only person who's going to say you're full of crap is you. At least get away with it.
> 
> I'm not under time pressures when I cook and already keep the knife straight. If that's the biggest risk, I think I'm OK with the limitations of a laser. Let's see if I've got the other limitations right. Avoid bones (e.g., breaking down chickens) frozen food, really tough vegetables like a hard squash, be reasonably soft on the board. It ain't a cleaver or a can opener. OK so far?
> 
> ...


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Bob I totally agree with the idea if the money is not an issue it does make sense to try and buy what you feel is what you really want or would be best etc. But the confusing part as it relates to our discussion is really the use of the word "entry level".

If cost was not a concern in any way I am sure my original purchase could well have been different, but the experience would have been lost, and I would not have known first hand just how superior (to any quality western style knife I had used previously) and totally "non" entry level these two brands really are. It is honestly not fair to call these entry level for the noobs who are completely confused by this though it is truly accurate.

It is just how we have learned what to expect from products that are called such. I guess if consider things like entry level dept store bought golf clubs, consumer power tools or similar items compared to top of the line high end ones we expect the earlier to very frankly be cheaply made junk, and most times this is totally accurate. In this arena though it is not the case, and both the entry level and higher end knives are quality products that will provide a vast improvement in performance and edge holding abilities. 

I suspect it has to do with the different work ethic, pride in accomplishment, and value of honor and respect that exists in Japan.

I still advise to get what your comfortable with etc. But if you would like to better understand this you may want to find a way to try one or even buy a inexpensive petty or similar knife (I think the DP petty is still under $40) to be able to compare and see for yourself.

That all said I have to be honest that the Konosuke, hattori, Massamoto and similar higher end knives would be my choice as well if there were not any expense restraints etc. But when you cut through all the fat there are many home and pro cooks who use those entry level knives everyday.

Far as comparing the thinness of the laser to a non laser once again the difference is not as large here as it is between the non laser more STD thickness and that of a Henckels or Wustof etc. Sure there is a good amount of change, and from my measurements much of it is behind the edge (part of why it feels to cut so much more effortlessly? ) and there will be more flex in the blade and everything else that has been mentioned earlier. It is a laser right?

I do agree with the others that how this thinness effects use may possibly not be as much an issue with proper technique or not rushing etc and you should have no problem that you can't correct, but you also have to be sure not to add any unwanted actions in your cutting like a twist of torque as the knife will make sure you know when you do. In fairness I found that the Fujiwara can supply the same, but that one is ground asymmetric and mi.e has been taken tl nearly 90/10 so it is really thin behind the edge which makes it feel sharper but also weaker (actually a good lil cutter with that edge lol).

I honestly would not give as much thought to the snippy issues as I found though it does flex more than non lasers it is not nearly as much am issue than the online discussions had me worried about.

I really can not find any complaints on this HD besides the cost, and so far it does everything I expected it to and feels even better.

If you need anymore comparison info just let me know.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Lenny, don't forget that Bob got a 5" MAC petty for Christmas, so he probably has a decent idea of what he's getting into already - it's just a matter of picking the "big gun" now.

Bob, I've just ordered stones from Paul at Paul's Finest and found him stellar to deal with, so if you like his knives (like the Grand Cheff that you saw at Santoku Office...which I've meant to go and visit but just haven't had a chance, yet) and want to skip on the Blaine thing, he's a good option (but you do pay HST and shipping, so factor that in). But Blaine's probably pretty easy for you, so could save you some bucks.


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Lenny, I've found that when I make purchases for non-consumables that I like to know I can count on keeping it for 5-10 years before the itch comes back. For me anyway, I found that less expensive over the long hall. This isn't the sort of thing I want to agonize over every year - as fun as it is/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Besides when I do this there's always the fixed cost (or hassle of) shipping, duty, or the trip across the line that makes small purchases more expensive. In for a penny, in for a pound, right?

Thanks for your input. I'm definitely getting more comfortable with my understanding of thinness. I've never had a problem with twisting so expect it's something I can adjust to without a lot of problem, Although it seems there's still a bit of discord about whether a laser is a good first J knife /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif - Jon, I will call (I tried today, but didn't realize you were closed - hopefully Saturday). Lenny, I'm glad you've found happiness with your HD, I'm looking forward to reading your next update in your other thread. Another opportunity to learn.

Deputy, Nice catch on BTW. I thought about the GC at Paul's, but I see he's out of stock on that one, so I don't feel the need to rush into anything just because it's easy or expedient.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Bob,

I don't know if these are clarifications or minor niggles...

Tough vegetables -- the problem which come with torquing or otherwise not keeping the blade square to the cut are magnified by a tough skin. So, yes to you and Jon.
Beginners -- No laser if you're just learning to cook; but for that first really good knife for someone who's working at making knife work work... I think they're OK.
Guidance -- I'm not trying to guide your decision so much as help you develop a short list which only includes knives you're bound to love. It's your choice.
Crap -- A lot of people think I'm full of it. References on request.
One of the things which bothers me most about equipment recommendations from board members -- just about any board, and CT far less than most -- is that frequently the person doing the recommending seems to be seeking validation for his own choice rather than communicating information which will help you make yours. I try to impart a common-sense, quality oriented, food-oriented viewpoint, which begins with sharpness; as opposed to "cheapest is good enough," or exotic knife-hobbyism. My interest in knife technique is about using sharpness efficiently, comfortably and safely. My interest in the knives themselves is the same.

Maybe it's validation or maybe it's not; but I take a great deal of pleasure from helping people develop their own conceptual framework and use it to make choices which they'll enjoy for a long time.

BDL


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Bob seems this whole thing may continue to be a learning experience, and I will be sharing my experience and thoughts on the HD soon as I have enough time with it to be comfortable that my thoughts are accurate.

I also want to do some side by side with the Fujiwara so I can offer some comparison and even some insight in the relationship of the performance v/s price difference. May take a little tome though as I do not want to mislead anyone etc.

Also I can't argue with your buy it once thinking as I share those thoughts, but once again I really can not emphasize enough that it is hard to decode just what you get for the extra cost.

Oh and BDL I have to address two things from above.

One is to validate your validation in your last paragraph as you have been a big help to many and myself included, and your questioning method is a fantastic way to allow a newbie to find his way while it still is well his way.

That said of course your sometimes full of crap, you were an attorney for heavens sakes


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

yup... thursdays are my only day off. sorry about that. Talk to you saturday i guess.



BobH said:


> Lenny, I've found that when I make purchases for non-consumables that I like to know I can count on keeping it for 5-10 years before the itch comes back. For me anyway, I found that less expensive over the long hall. This isn't the sort of thing I want to agonize over every year - as fun as it is/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Besides when I do this there's always the fixed cost (or hassle of) shipping, duty, or the trip across the line that makes small purchases more expensive. In for a penny, in for a pound, right?
> 
> Thanks for your input. I'm definitely getting more comfortable with my understanding of thinness. I've never had a problem with twisting so expect it's something I can adjust to without a lot of problem, Although it seems there's still a bit of discord about whether a laser is a good first J knife /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif - Jon, I will call (I tried today, but didn't realize you were closed - hopefully Saturday). Lenny, I'm glad you've found happiness with your HD, I'm looking forward to reading your next update in your other thread. Another opportunity to learn.
> 
> Deputy, Nice catch on BTW. I thought about the GC at Paul's, but I see he's out of stock on that one, so I don't feel the need to rush into anything just because it's easy or expedient.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

double post


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

triple post


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

First-time-poster (previous lurker) checking in with a couple of questions. Etiquette from other forums has taught me to search first, and not create the same thread that has been posted dozens of times before.

First, let's get a disclaimer out of the way: I've been baking since perhaps the age of five, and cooking at the stove since not long after that. Yet with some forty years of knowing my way around the kitchen, I still can't chop onions with any real speed or finesse. However I do know how to handle knives as well as the basics of knife care. Strangely, I grew up using mom's knives and they were all thin, slender-bladed and very long. She never had a heavy-bellied, German-profile knife in the kitchen and she could do wonderful things with the long blades. I remember the springiness of the thin steel.

My knife block is a mish-mash of cheap, bad, beaten, decent, good-value and not as bad.  My go-to knives have long been a Henckels Four-Star chef's 8-inch and a carbon short Sabatier paring knife. Both are in pretty good shape, if a bit tired, but they get the job done. I also have a couple of ancient European knives that I inherited from a family friend, a very accomplished cook and food writer: a big Lanius moly butcher's knife from the 60s and an undated Wüsthof boning knife. Both have seen better days, but they do get used now and again for the tougher tasks. OTOH, my bread knife was a POS "ever-sharp" non-German Henckels and after recently getting back into yeast baking I realized how brutally bad it was. I investigated spending good money on a good bread knife only to read (here and at Ch*whound) that many knife aficionados recommend getting cheap, sharp bread knives and throwing them out when they dull. I was about to send CKTG some cash for the long Tojiro or a Ken Onion Shun bread knife when I saw quite a few recommendations for the KAI PureKomachi 2 "bread" knife at a tiny fraction of the price. I grabbed it off Amazon and couldn't be more pleased with the value -- for its purpose. But all the research rekindled my interest in knives and led me to Japanese knives. I have been doing my homework and know that I only want a good chef's knife to start, but for me -- and my skill set -- I also know it has to be a lifetime knife.

As luck would have it, I'm headed to Asia in a couple of weeks, and will be in Tokyo for one night and most of one day. I'll be staying in Ginza (Chuo) and I'm heading to Tsukiji for the auction and breakfast. Also on my itinerary for that day is a jaunt up to Asakusa and across the Sumida to the Ryōgoku Kokugikan (sumo hall), which happens to be a couple of blocks away from Masamoto Suhonten ("head office"). My thinking is I will look at the Masamoto Tsukijis as well as the Arigutsu Tokyos before heading there. I don't really know what to expect to pay for a Wa-gyuto KS 240 at Masa, but if it is relative well-priced in Sumida I'll probably pop for it. Any reason I should rethink this? Perhaps I could get an Arigutsu petty at the market. I know the market stores will open the knives for me. Does Masa head office also do this?

Because I travel very light I will investigate sharpening stones when I return home, but after dropping half a paycheck on a single knife it definitely becomes a high priority.

Any extra thoughts on this?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

SameGuy,

Great.... so you're going to live MY dream.

The Aritsugu A is highly regarded, I don't know if it's at the Tokyo Aritsugu or the other one. Wherever it is, unless you're already a super good sharpener... don't get it. To really work right, the knife needs extensive re-profiling; and it's a very difficult to profile.

I don't know too much about the other Aritsugus, but gather the top line "carbons" are very good. My understanding of the Japanese professional knife market (gained entirely second hand) is that Masa is Ichi-ban and Aritsugu is a close Nichi-ban. Aritsugus are a lot less expensive.

The Masamoto KS is one of the best wa-gyutos at any price, and it's expensive. Given the vagaries of the yen/dollar day-to-day and the necessity for Japanese importers and US based retailers to hold prices steady for a few months at least, you can probably get a Masa for less here than there. But squeezing the price down to the last ryu isn't the point of buying at Tsukiji is it? On the other hand, check the online prices before leaving for Japan.

The Masa KS would be my first choice because of it's wonderful profile, F&F, aesthetic, and for a ton of other reasons. FWIW, it's shiro #2 carbon. I don't think Masa makes a stainless wa-gyuto.

The KS is a beautiful knife. Super advanced in the sense that you can get an awful lot out of it if you know how; but don't expect magic until you bring your sharpening and knife skills up. Also don't expect the knife to be really sharp "out of the box." It's SOP in Japan to have a new knife sharpened at the hamono at time of purchase. Be very specific about what you want in terms of sharpening, because from what I understand, knife shop sharpening can be quick and dirty unless you let them know you want a really clean job.

If you do buy something -- anything -- at the KS's quality level, you're going to have to learn to sharpen muy pronto as the Japanese say. It would be a shame to keep a knife like that in any condition less than _extremely_ sharp.

BDL


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks for the quick response, BDL!

I'm not going to lose sleep over sharpening. As you said, as long as I take the time to start learning properly, it's not likely I'll ruin my knives. But at the same time I'm not so AR that I'll turn my nose up at the EP. The Chosera stones that Mark sells in the Apex kit, are they the same as I might find at the Tokyo shops? Or are the bases modified to fit the EP's clamps? If I can drag home a couple of them to get started, and maybe put together a four-stone kit in the near future I should be able to fall into the trap that is this knife obsession. I already know that I'll at least need a decent petty, a good cleaver and eventually a nice yanagiba -- though I rarely prep my own fish at home, and never make nigiri or sashimi, I know that the obsession will change me.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

There are a few gags which will handle full size bench stones, but neither of the EPs is one of them.  An EP will only handle a specific size.  The Choseras Mark sells for the EP are not only cut down but mounted to a back plate.   

Petty -- yes. 

Cleaver -- whether you mean something heavy for heavy duty work, or a chuka bocho -- hold off for now. 

Yanagiba -- ditto.  Since you're planning on not buying in the immediate future, wait til you get back to have the yanagiba, deba, usuba discussion -- and have it with someone who knows traditional Japanese knives and cutting better than I do. 

Obession -- yes it is and yes it will.

BDL


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

boar_d_laze said:


> Bob,
> 
> I don't know if these are clarifications or minor niggles...
> 
> ...


BDL. I'm considering it clarification, although niggles is pretty close too. At my age I better not be a beginner /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif. I hear you about recommendations and self-validation - its an observation I've made multiple times. But CT is better than most. FYI, I've traded notes with Mark so far, but we haven't managed to really connect. I'm going to try to give Jon a call late this afternoon. After I talk to them I'll try to articulate a better shortlist. So far I think it consists of:

Tadatsuna Inox (stainless)
Konosuke HD
Kukuichi TDK
Gesshin Ginga
Takayuki Grand Cheff
Hattori HF
Masamoto VG (I'd consider throwing the KS in the mix in spite of being carbon, but it's only available with a wa handle - it gets so much love)
The list is still a work in progress, I need to get it down to one eventually (sooner rather than later I hope), but at the moment, it might get longer first as I get more opinions/input/knowledgable.

The inclusion of the really thin knives surprised me, it wasn't my original thought - thanks to everyone for their input on "thinness". We'll see were this leads, I'm curious what Mark & Jon will have to say. The other factors I've pretty much clarified in my mind are:

*Western/Yo handle* - this is still my comfort zone and while I know there are great wa handled knives, I haven't really heard an argument that says a wa handle is inherently better, just different.
*French profile* - the other thing that always bugged me about the four stars was I found the tip too high. I din't mention this before.
*Single steel* - not looking for damascus finish or a clad knife.
*On the thin side*- doesn't have to be a laser, but I don't think I need to eliminate thin knives.
*Stainless or semi-stainless* - feel free to talk me out of it - I'm not religious about this.
*Great fit & finish* - yeah, it's a tool but the asthetics still count - call me vain/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif.
The usual everyone seems to look for: easy to sharpen, good edge retention, ...
Bob


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

On yo- vs. wa- handles -- I haven't heard that one was inherently better, either.   I think generally the wa- will be lighter, and balance will be on the blade-heavy side. And the fit and finish is more reliable on Euro knives with Euro handles, but.... I don't think you need to worry about that AT ALL on something like the Gesshin Ginga, or maybe most of the others you're considering.  (That would be something to bring up with Jon when you talk).


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

On the handles your thoughts are similar to my own, well before finally getting a wa handled knife at least.

I am still not sure on smaller knives where you use or grip the handle more, but with a gyuto where I do use a pinch grip I have to report I am finding I prefer the wa handle. 

There are a couple reasons and I really want to get more time withe the new knife before making a final decision, but I am finding I prefer the balance and lighter overall feel as it seems to compliment my cuts etc.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

WAIT! STOP!

1. I think SameGuy knows this, but just in case: Masamoto Souhonten and Masamoto Tsukiji are utterly unrelated companies. So far as I can tell, they have _never_ been related. Masamoto Tsukiji knives are supposed to be pretty decent, but they are not the justifiably lauded Masamoto knives -- those are Masamoto Souhonten.

2. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, Masamoto Souhonten has no brick-and-mortar shops. In fact, I do not believe they do retail at all. My understanding is that they sell all their products exclusively through independent retailers. So while you can visit up across from Asakusa, I was told by someone who lives in Asakusa itself that it's just a little office building, nothing to see. What I can't tell you, unfortunately, is where to find a brick-and-mortar retailer who sells Masamoto Souhonten, though there's got to be someone in Kappabashi.

3. Aritsugu Tsukiji is the one that does A-style, yes. It's famous for being a PITA to thin, profile, and sharpen, but for being disconcertingly indestructible once you've got it there. It is also remarkably inexpensive for what it is. In fact, Aritsugu Tsukiji is across the board inexpensive for what you get: one of the last actual deals in the business, it seems. They're supposed to be very nice if you drop by. But I am also told that Tsukiji in general is increasingly hostile to tourists, so if you can't pass for Japanese you will need to be as polite and out-of-the-way at all times as possible if you don't want to get the sense that people are basically mad at you. I don't know if that extends to Aritsugu.

4. There are some other knife shops in Tsukiji, worth checking out. You can find maps of the market online if you search around.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Hi Bob,



BobH said:


> Masamoto VG (I'd consider throwing the KS in the mix in spite of being carbon, but it's only available with a wa handle - it gets so much love)


Although I'm the nut who actually uses an usuba for everything, I started with a Masamoto KS wa-gyuto and have recently bought my wife a Masamoto VG. I can't give comparative information, but I can comment on the knives themselves.

KS: It gets that love for a reason. You just have no idea. But it is very expensive -- shockingly so, really. It is the only carbon wa-gyuto that I think you should even consider seriously, because I think at base a carbon wa-gyuto is not what you want. But this thing is so brilliant that it ought to be in the mix. Balance, feel, pointing, all that are simply out of this world. And the steel not only takes an insane edge -- that's almost a given with these sorts of knives, but there are some experts who will swear that no gyuto gets as sharp as this one -- but it is almost frightening how quickly it takes that edge. It's simply the most fun thing to sharpen I've ever had. I have now bought a small KS deba because this steel is so great to lay on stones, and I have been thrilled. KS is wonderful! But in all likelihood it's not an ideal choice for you, based on what you say about yourself.

VG: I am very impressed. I know what BDL means in saying that it's whippy, but he's totally right that this is a complete nonissue for a home cook. It has a lovely profile, and I was quite pleased with fit-and-finish. It sharpens beautifully and quickly. It is not anything like as much fun to sharpen as the KS, nor does it take as good an edge easily, but it is certainly pleasant. If you're not a huge fan of sharpening all the time, this knife is a good choice because you won't spend a whole lot of time at it.

If you go Masamoto, bear in mind that they run long: add 5-10mm to the blade length. I was a little disconcerted that my KS 270mm came in at 283mm, which is pretty enormous. So don't be pushed to go up to 270 from 240 if you don't want that: a Masamoto 240 will probably be around 250mm.


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

HI Lenny, Wag & Chris,  I appreciate the input.  I have a head cold at the moment and haven't been processing things as well as I'd like.   I did manage to talk to Jon briefly on Saturday.   His enthusiasm is something to behold.  Unfortunately with the aforementioned cold, I felt like I'm in a fog and didn't exactly ask the most insightful questions.  I probably need to circle around again later this week.

Here are my partially formed thoughts at the moment.  The Konosuke HD is only a small bit (about $25 or less) more expensive than the Takayuki GC, Masamoto VG, and only $6 more than the TKC.  The HD is also about $50 less than the other options.  So  considering how highly loved and respected it is, I think it's near the top - certainly from a value perspective.  I haven't been able to find an negative comments on it at all. A few things are holding me back, I haven't chatted with Mark yet (good thing this weekend) and really need to be a bit more on the ball for a chat with Jon, and as luck would have it, it's sold out at the moment, so I'm not tempted to jump in just yet.  I'd love to hear from anyone who's worked with the western handled version, is up to the same standard as the wa version? Lenny, didn't you have one for a while? Most of the comments and reviews are for the wa HD.

Can you spot any flaws in my reasoning at the moment?  Any reason why the HD wouldn't be a good choice? In any case, more digging and thought is required before pulling the trigger.  

Thanks all,  Bob


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

No flaws visible.

BDL


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

Hi, I'm near here, and have been voraciously reading posts and trying to absorb as much of the incredible knowledge shared here as possible.  Great site!

I'm in a similar position to Bob, so I've come across this thread a few times.  A couple things I was wondering about:

1. How different is the blade on the Konosuke HD wa and yo handles?  Looks like the yo is a bit thicker, at least at the heel.  The weight difference is also significant:  136 g for wa, ~ 201 g (7.2 oz) for the yo.  Is all that weight difference in the handle, or also partly the blade?

2. I also (just) came across the "new shape" version at CKTG (wa handle only, I think):  "Konosuke HD Gyuto 240mm has a new and improved shape. This one has a larger flat spot on the edge which is ideal for general kitchen use and especially push cutting. This is one of our favorite blade shapes so we asked Konosuke to make them exclusively for CKTG. The 240mm Funayuki/gyuto has a 2 sided edge and comes with a stabilized octagonal handle ferrule. It's also easier to sharpen. Curiously similar shape to the Carter Funayukis."

I don't know how "new" this is, and I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on the new shape.

I'm personally more inclined to go with the yo handle myself, but thought these relate to the discussion at hand.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Blade thickness for the Konosuke wa and yo gyutos are so similar that you need to talk to someone who handles (and measures) a lot of blades to know whether or not the tang/handle style makes a differences or variation is typical of anything largely hand made and goes from individual.  In other words, call Mark or Jon.

Don't read too much into figures posted by individual owners on knife sites.

The difference in weight between yo and wa styles is entirely or almost entirely a function of the different tangs, handles and scales, rather than blade thickness.

If you think you'll be more comfortable with a yo handle than a wa, don't second guess yourself.  Enough gazillions of great meals have been prepped with yo handles that we can safely say it's pretty much a non factor as far as the grub is concerned.  For what it's worth, if you use a normal "pinch' grip, there's not much difference or transition.  As long as you keep your knife sharp, both styles are comfortable. 

I really like the old Konosuke wa, 1/2 octagon handles.  But I have large hands and a very forgiving and versatile grip.  Almost everyone else prefers the new, wider style.  I've never tried the Konosuke wa.

I've also never used a new style Konosuke, but have used plenty of drop-tip, flatter style gyutos.  As a general rule, flatter favors "push" over "rock" and to some extent the shape of the edge will determine the limits of how far you can impose an action without fighting the profile.  But the difference between the amount of belly and rocker in the new and old styles doesn't appear huge to me.  As long as there's some arc around the tip ("belly")  you can use a tip-down European style without fighting the blade; and the new Konosuke certainly looks as though it would work fine for anything which isn't too extreme. 

Is Kono influenced by Carter?  Probably not that much.  See one gyuto with a dropped tip, not much belly, and less than usual rocker along the length, and you have a pretty good idea of what the rest will look like, too.  Think of a "stretch santoku" and you get something very much like the same image.

The more your action favors push cutting, the more you NEED to keep a really sharp edge.  Light, flatter-profiled blades don't bring much in the way of power.  Similarly, yo handles are less conducive to a strong grip than wa. 

BDL


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi again.

Chris, thanks for the input! Yes, I was aware of the difference between Masa Tsukiji and Sohonten, though I guess I was less than clear in my post describing my itinerary. It is also my understanding that the two or three knife shops in Tsukiji are all house-brand OEM storefronts, though I may be mistaken. Perhaps they carry multiple brands?

From the Google Translate version of Sohonten's site, it looks like they might be a shop -- see the "Access" page, along with some other notes on the site that seem to urge you to shop there and avoid "imitations." EIther way, it's not all that far from the "head office" to Kappabashi-dori, so I even if they don't actually sell them at Azumabashi I'm sure they'll steer me to where I can get one with good service.

Depending how the day unfolds, I may trek back to Aritsugu to pick up a knife as well.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Bob it seems you have found your short list, and now things get interesting as you pick you final preferences based on differences that are not as large as the ones that shortened the long list. Some say its splitting hairs, but I am still on the fence etc.

Todd I have to reinforce most of what BDL wrote above, but also add some thoughts or changes from what I learned with my short time with the "new profile" and even shorter time with a yo handled one.

Now keep in mind that BDL has written many times that if you use a light pinch grip that the handle is pretty much inconsequential and though I was not sure at first I now fully agree, but also need to make note that in this particular knife there is a very different feel between the two. Since the Konosuke is my first real wa handled knife besides a bread knife that has a very different handle altogether I do not any others to compare with etc.

I also agree that the differences in actual measurements of the blade are negligible except for the length (my wa is about 7/16 shorter ) and the thickness just above the edge and I am sure like mentioned above this may be more to do with the exact ones I measured than normal differences between the two styles, and also agree there is not enough difference to cause the measurements to help make your decision.

My comparison is on the 240mm yo handle in corian and I will also point out I did not actually cut with it and only handled it briefly to get a feel for it and than take some measurements so I could compare to the wa handled one etc.

I know the normal yo handled ones show to be approximately 2oz lighter than the corian, and the wa another few less than the STD yo. Still I knew immediadely that the one I received first just did not feel right, made my same size Fujiwara yo feel like a feather, and just did not feel anything like I expected a laser to feel.

The blade looked great and for the most part like the wa one I replaced it with.

I also was concerned with the wa handle but was also intrigued by it as well. In the end I am so happy I made the change as the wa handle is great and makes the whole knife so much lighter and agile feeling. Still only you can decide what is best for you, and I am pretty sure you will be happy with either.
The change in the blade profile between STD and new is not earth shattering though I am finding the slightly flatter new design does compliment my cutting style more.

There are also other threads on this near the top of the list currently so be sure to check them out too.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Also the new style is nothing like any santoku I have owned, but I do also enjoy using the santoku I do have for certain things and it would not be a big deal if there was some comparable aspects etc. Just that I am not seeing them


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Here is a pic of the konosuke and a Tojiro DP santoku for comparison.


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

After a visit of Asakusa-kannon and the Kaminarimon I'll head to Kappabashi. From what I can tell I should look for Union Commerce and Kamata for the Masamoto KS, and possibly at Tsubaya. I'll also check out the Tojiros at TDI and price the Naniwa stones at each place. I'm going to have to figure out how to pack stuff properly in a thin nylon bag that I keep rolled up in my napsack to use as a checked bag if I must (I usually travel carry-on-only), but I'm quite sure the shopkeepers will help me out by packing things well if I ask.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Sameguy that sounds like a great trip.

Be sure to share your experiences while traveling! If you can. Would ne great to follow


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

Well, CKtG got the western Konosuke HD in stock so I ran out of excuses to procrastinate.  I just pulled the trigger.  Nothing to do now but wait until everything gets to the mailbox in Blaine.  After talking to Mark & Jon, decided to go the freehand waterstones route rather than the EP.  Thanks everyone for all of the input & advice!

Sameguy - have a great trip!


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks! Counting down the minutes... If my Superbowl squares pay out in the office pool, maybe more than one knife coming home with me.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Congrats Bob - enjoy it!


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

LMAO!

I'm leaving for the airport in a little more than five hours. A bit too busy to watch, I just checked the final score. I won $400 in the office "squares" draw! I guess that settles that! I'm coming home with that 240mm KS if I can track it down!!!


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

Congratulations!


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Well done SG. Fwiw, Paul at paulsfinest.com carries the Choseras (I just got mine from him) and he's local to you. Check the prices before you buy and hul them back from Japan.


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Just a quick post from Tokyo before I head for Haneda...

First, a couple of answers:

Yes, Masamoto-Souhonten has a store on Azumabashi, at 1-6-5. It is very nice, but the staff neither speak nor understand a word of English. And yes, Chris, the prices here are astronomical thanks to the inflated Yen value. FWIW, nobody here understood (or uses) the term "*wa*-gyuto".

I started out the day at 4:00 am, with a brisk walk in the deserted city while it was a bone-chillingly-damp 33°F. Thank FSM I packed my Patagonia long johns for the Tokyo part of my trip! About 20 minutes from my hotel I arrived at the Tsukiji market's information center. Believe it or not, even in February, there was already a line-up. I arrived just before 4:30 and was 16th in line; by 5:00 am it was sold-out for the day. After the auctions we were herded rather unceremoniously out of the area, at which time we were free to wander the Jogai (outer) market. I made a bee-line for Building 6 and the famous sushiyas. The Japanese guide books all rate Sushi Dai ichi-ban, and the Japanese will settle for nothing less than the best, so even at 6:00 am there was a line at least 90 minutes long. Daiwa was only slightly better, perhaps an hour. With the help of a Japanese-Americaan student visiting her family, Yamamoto Sushi was a strong recommendation. The student, her boyfriend and I were able to be seated right away! I ordered an _omakase_ that turned out to be (forgive me if I don't know all the terms) eight nigiri, a bundle of six hosomaki, a slice of the tamago and a rather huge uni roll, plus a bowl of seafood broth with little shellfish in it (which I didn't touch). The sushi was fantastic, and by the time I was done there were about 30 people outside waiting for a spot on one of the 12 stools at the counter. It cost JPY 3500 -- a pretty incredible deal for that quality of sushi, considering just a mile or so away in Ginza it would easily cost three times as much!

I smacked my lips and went off to the knife shops. First I came across Aritsugu Tsukiji. They were friendly, but offered little English. The A-series blades are gorgeous, and the overall fit and finish of the knives is really nice. Next, Masamoto Tsukiji, both in Building 9 and the slightly larger shop just outside the market near Harumi-dori. In both places they were putting handles on blades and sharpening. The fish market is a busy place! I bought a T-shirt at a nearby stall and walked back to the hotel to pack and check out. Then I grabbed the Ginza Metro up to Asakusa and crossed the Sumida, just a short stroll to Masamoto-Souhonten's "head office."

At the Masa shop, they managed to tell me (with the use of a translator app on an iPhone) that the KS 3124 (240 mm gyouto) is back-ordered for at least a month. Its price is JPY 31,000 -- about $400. The 270 is available... at Y34,110 -- $450!!! I thanked them and headed to the Sensoji temple complex, only slightly crushed.

After the calming vibes of the temples -- despite the throngs -- I took a right turn and found Kappabashi-dori. Let me tell you something: a group of friendly Tokyo hipsters snickered at me in the Lion Beer Hall last night when I told them I was headed to Kappabashi for the day. Well, guess what: it is a fantastic tourist destination, even for those who are not foodies or into cooking. I didn't know where to look, there were so many fascinating things to see.

First I came across the TDI main shop, where they glady gave me instructions how to get to their knife shop. A bit further north, Union Commerce and Tsubaya are on a side street to the right (east). Both shops were so friendly and welcoming, and both had at least one family member with some English proficiency, that I almost felt like I would be betraying them if I were to leave without a knife! Again, no stock of the KS 240, but Union was able to let me handle and drool over the 270. The balance is absolutely perfect, it has a strange post-modern, utilitarian appeal in its simplicity and the F&F are nearly flawless. I did not expect the big 270 to feel so good and so lithe. They let me handle a couple of 240 blue kasumis from other brands and there was no comparison. Then they showed me the price of the 270... Y 24,000? That's what? $315? No saya included, but too good to pass up, so I now own a Masamoto-Souhonten KS 3127. I asked them to sharpen it for me, and the master showed that OOB he was cutting a sheet of newspaper six inches from his hand. I persisted just a bit and he went ahead and opened it for me on Kings: 3000 and 8000. he cleaned off the protective coat, buffed it up and applied some oil. An assistant packed it up very carefully and the older gentleman doing most of the translation brought me (and the master) a cup of coffee from their coffee place next door, and gave me an extra gift: an incredibly sharp folding pocket knife. I took a few pictures, gave them a paycheck and sauntered up the street grinning from ear to ear.

I stopped in at Kamaasa's beautiful boutique, and had a pleasant time trying to chat with a helpful young man at Kamata. Their prices were only slightly higher. Finally I checked out the Tojiros at TDI before heading back to the hotel to pick up my bags. And post this. 

PS: a few pictures to follow when I get home.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Sounds like a great trip so far, and can't wait for the pics


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yep - sounds awesome! Really looking forward to the pics.


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## toddnmd (Jan 23, 2012)

This post is more related to earlier posts in the thread as it pertains to MAC graphics.  I have the MAC Pro santoku.  No, I didn't (and don't) love the graphics.  However, I will point out that it says "MAC Mighty" on only one side--the other side has primarily Japanese characters in black and red (and a very small "Made in Japan"), and looks a lot better.  I will also say in practice that I noticed the graphics a lot more when I first received it, and was admiring the new purchase.  Now when I'm cutting, it's pretty much a non-issue.  And I'm impressed enough with the performance that I hardly notice/think about the graphics that much now.

Overall, there are so many things going for MACS it seems like it would be a shame to discount it as an option because of the graphics.  OTOH, I can understand someone who thinks, "If I'm paying all this money for a knife, I better like the way it looks!"


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## bobh (Jan 15, 2012)

I've been negligent about getting back here with an update.  Mia culpa.  I received the HD late last week.  I haven't done a lot with it yet, but the little time I have spent with it has me saying "lovin' it".  It feels much smaller than it's 24cm size.  Nice and light, but I don't find it feeling waif-like at all.  It's pretty much exactly what I was looking/hoping for.  Sharp OOTB, but I'm looking forward to seeing how much better it will get.  The profile is a huge improvement over my Henckels.  If this is a French profile, I understand why people rave about Sabatiers.

As to the the asthetics.....  The F & F is excellent.  I'm enjoying the Yo handle, the pakka wood scales fit perfectly. The graphics are engraved (not just silk screened) exactly as shown on the CKtG site and are only on the one side if that matters to anyone (it's what I was expecting).  On the whole it gives the impression of understated elegance.  Nothing flashy, not to utilitarian, it just gets the job done.

I ended up going with the Shapton GS 1K & 4K kit.  Mark was high on it.  I've only flattened the stones and touched up one of my other knives so far, but think it's going to work fine for me.  The splash & go nature of them is sure convenient. 

I gotta run now as I'm heading out on a business trip, but will be back in a few days.

Thanks again to everyone (particularly BDL - where do you find the time & patience?) for all of the input, questions and suggestions as I was looking.

Cheers, Bob


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Great to hear you like the HD.

In reference to the Shapton Glass stones please let us know what you think after getting some time on them.

In hind sight I may have done better than my original decision to go with the 2K GS (likely had a similar talk with Mark as you did lol) in as far as my progression of stones for my J knives is concerned as it is sort of stuck in the middle etc. but I still like it, and find the advantages of the GS in general to be good ones that I expect would transfer over to the two different grit ones you have. Also even though the 2K may not be a good fit for my progression it is a great stone for my western kitchen knives and various hunting and utility knives and am glad I did get it.

Not sure if this was an issue with yours, but I found that the 2K really needed a good flattening, and not really because it was dished or anything, but because it was some how like glazed over. Once it was flattened down real good it did work very well.

One thing you can not beat is the splash and go part. It is just so simple I have considered looking into a finer one just for fast touch ups etc.

Only real negative I have found needing any real mention is just that it does not have the feel or smoothness of some of the other stones I have used. I will admit I do not have anything else in the same grit, but the same surface that makes it splash and go easy also makes it feel hard and just different than the other water stones I have. For me it is more different than a problem, and is more similar to the old norton combo stone I had used forever, but seems to work more like a normal whetstone too.

Looking forward to your feedback.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

> OTOH, I can understand someone who thinks, "If I'm paying all this money for a knife, I better like the way it looks!"


I would have to admit that is pretty much what my thoughts were 

It is also kind of funny because normally being attracted to value and the MAC offering a good level of it etc that "other" side of my brain must have really disliked that logo on the other side of the blade LMAO.

Maybe one day I will have to add one so I can finally be able to evaluate my decision.


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Looking forward to more reports, Bob.

I think just for the sake of the learning curve I'll likely invest in the EP kit with Choseras in hte near future (it's back in stock at CKTG). The videos make it look like it's fairly quick to set up once you've done it a couple of times, and I don't want to make too much of a hobby out of getting a good edge and polish on my knives. OTOH, it will be a safe investment, knowing that the new Masa won't be my only real Japanese knife for very long. I don't think it'll bee too long before I take home one of the beautiful _garasuki_ or _honesuki _I saw at every shop. Aritsugu's poultry knives looked very well made, and the Union boys showed me a couple but I've forgotten the brand names.

Incidentally, I tried pricing stones, too. iAy caramba! Kamata had only Naniwa Supers and Kings, with the 3000s starting around ¥4500 and the 10K at over ¥9000. Union has Supers, Kings and a few other brands, and a single Chosera 10K... for a whopping ¥11000! That's $140! The full-size stones are just a bit too heavy (and fragile) for the duffel bag I was using as checked luggage.

I also want to thank BdL, Chris and everyone else for their continued sharing of knowledge and experience. I'm sure my skill level would justify a nice wa-bocho at half the price I paid, but I see it a long-term purchase that I might include in my will.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Considering the Chosera 10K is about $265 from CKtG and $263 from Paul, it might not be a bad buy if you can still pick it up while you're there! Hell, grab me one while you're at it!


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Next time, I'm afraid. I got home this morning. But there will definitely be a next time, as I sampled only the tiniest bit of what Tokyo has to offer.


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Ah, yeah, sounds like a trip that makes me want to see Japan. My wife hated it there when she was about 22 but I think she'd be more willing to adventure now and I think it'd be a pretty cool place, given what I've heard. Can't wait for the pics!

Admittedly, I doubt I need a 10K for much of anything, but still...


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Just a normal 5:25 am at Tsukiji's tuna auction:





At 6:05 am my first authentic nigirizushi were presented to me. My first sushi breakfast!







On to knife shops...


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Tsukiji Masamoto shop _inside_ the market:





One of the display cases at Masamoto-Sohonten in Azumabashi:



One wa-wall at the wonderful Kamata shop:



The master knife smith at Union Commerce polishing my new Masamoto KS 270 (I'm sorry, I was so excited that I forgot his name):


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Deputy, what's the personal exemption limit for Canada? $400 for 48 hours? Hmmm... the way I can get to Tokyo I can get there and back for a day-trip (that actually takes closer to three and a half days).


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yep, $400. Up to $750 after 7 days. Let me know if you do plan on going again and we can maybe work something out. Or maybe I should just go myself!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If JCK sells it, it's probably cheaper to buy it from them -- even with duties. They're experts at using the art of creative story-telling to keep government tariffs to their minimum.

BDL to


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## sameguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah, and if CKTG has them in stock already, there's a good chance they ordered their stock at a good wholesale price, and when the Yen was quite a bit lower (although I see that the Canadian dollar has surged against the yen -- about 3% -- since I did my CAD/JPY cash forex in Singapore last Friday). Grrr.

FWIW, I don't believe there are import duties on many made-in-Japan products entering Canada (tariffs on certain categories of goods are a different story), but what we really save with our Customs exemption is the sales taxes, which are really high in Canada. In Quebec, for example, we pay the Fed GST (5%) as well as the piggy-backed Provincial sales tax (9.5%), which adds 14.975% to anything you buy here, or import. For all intents and purposes, "duty free" for most Canadians means "sales tax free."


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## deputy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yep, it's those pesky taxes that make things pricey to buy locally. I've still elected on occasion to support local business and contribute to the federal coffers...in BC we're (currently) in a Harmonized Sales Tax state (until the government finds their way to seeing the wishes of the absolutely moronic voting population who ousted it incorrectly because they're too stupid to understand the economic benefits for the province) of 12% (which I had to pay when I ordered from Paul's). If we order something internationally and it gets pulled into Customs upon entry, we pay a handling charge, HST, and whatever duties may apply. That's what makes ordering anything from JCK such an attractive concept, when compared with the competition.

That being said, I can't condone JCK's methods from a governmental economic strength standpoint.... Ah well, I got my stuff.


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