# Tojiro DP F-809 240mm Gyuto a Good Budget/Entry level Intro to Japanese Knives?



## lennyd

My first post here so any help on the topic or posting is appreciated!!!

Have been reading the many discussions on the various brands (here and on other similar sites) being discussed and recommended, and most all seem to be good performers as well as seriously nice tools (some bordering art lol) but the prices of everything I find most desirable just seem high for my needs/use.

Even though I really like the looks of the Hattori (HD FH and especially the KF) the Misono (UX10) Masamoto VG, a few of the Saikai and many others that have been recommended I just can not see coming up with nearly $200 or more for them either. I mean these are all seriously nice looking tools, appear to be very well made, and from what I have read all perform well, but may just be overkill for me etc.

So I am seriously looking at the Tojiro DP as it seems to be a "value" as I can get the 240mm for under $100 (some are offering under $90 on eBay but would prob go with Cutlery and More or CKG), and my question is if this would be a good choice, or if it is really worth the double cost for one of the others?

I normally subscribe to the school of paying a little more to get a quality product that will perform better and last longer, but also am a stickler for value, and understand that you dont need a million dollar CNC machine to make a widget in your garage either.

A little background. Some pro prep and line work 20 years ago, all home cooking now, and the occasional 10-20 person affair (basic fish, chicken, beef etc) but nothing on the high end of fancy.

Current mis matched collection includes Henckels Pro S Santoku - 6" Util - 8" Slicer - 4 Star Boning and 8" Spain Chefs, Mundial Elegance 8" Chefs, 8" bread, and 6" serated util. and an odd no name parer made in Taiwan (plus a collection of unknown nothing special pieces I hold onto for guests who want to borrow a knife etc lol)

Most of these were purchased at discount/clearance stores or at heavy discounts from retailers. Most were under $25 and only two of the Henckels were $40 (heck the Mundials were all under $20, and so was one or two of the pro-s )

It is not the most hi tech collection, but I have been able to get a decent sharp edge on the Germans (though I have passed their limits and had to increase the angles) and much as I am not happy with the quality of the steel on the Chefs made in Spain it can take a decent edge due to it;s being thinner etc, but it will not hold it long at all. The Mundials are actually decent for my use except for the Chefs which is cumbersome due to it's weight (I actually end up using the Pro S Santoku most of the time as it seems to hold a edge better and is sharper more often, and I find I am more comfortable with it's chopping ability etc) and the fact I can not get it to keep anything near an acute sharp edge for any reasonable amount of time. Nice handle, and the profile is more French of Japanese from many attempts to keep or get it sharp and re profiling it.

So I am in need for a Chefs/Gyuto, and would really like to have something that will be comfortable, sharp, and "good" enough to be my new go to Knife.

To answer what seem to be some of the more popular questions asked of posters I do use a pinch grip, have a good assortment of cutting boards (both large and small. Wood and plastic /composite) ample counter space, and do my own sharpening though I think my current assortment of stones and methods may not be the best for a Japanese gyuto based on what I have read here.

I have an older Norton combo India oil stone that I have been using for years with water. It shows wear, and the fine side was damaged when a friend was helping out about 10 years ago and there is a crack that separates it 1/4 so I have been using only 3/4 of it for a while.

I use two different grades of Nikken wet paper glued to hardwood blocks for finishing/ polishing. 1200 and 2000. I can get reasonably acceptable results due to a steady hand and holding angle fairly well, but have no idea how these grits relate to the ratings of Japanese whet stones, and if I would need to add any new stones to get preferred results. I have a limited budget (the same unemployment that has allowed the time to get back into cooking more seriously has also hampered funds available lol) but some of the King combo stones and the Super Stones recommended here previously to others could be done, but maybe only one or two of them and not a full set.

Sorry for the length, but wanted to get as much info out there so that you guys can help me make the right choice!


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## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> So I am seriously looking at the Tojiro DP as it seems to be a "value" as I can get the 240mm for under $100 (some are offering under $90 on eBay but would prob go with Cutlery and More or CKG), and my question is if this would be a good choice, or if it is really worth the double cost for one of the others?


The answer to those two questions is yes and probably. Yes, the Tojiro DP is a great value and a flat out good knife. Despite having knives costing three times as much I still take three Tojiro DPs to work every day. That said, I'm not gonna give up my more expensive knives, either. To me they're worth it. Will they be to you? Hard to say. Certainly more money will get better fit and finish and better steel. If you want a "laser" (knife nerd slang for a knife that's very, very thin and extremely sharp) then you'll have to pay more. It's not easy to make a blade that's both very thin and durable to work with.


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## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> I have an older Norton combo India oil stone that I have been using for years with water. It shows wear, and the fine side was damaged when a friend was helping out about 10 years ago and there is a crack that separates it 1/4 so I have been using only 3/4 of it for a while.
> 
> I use two different grades of Nikken wet paper glued to hardwood blocks for finishing/ polishing. 1200 and 2000. I can get reasonably acceptable results due to a steady hand and holding angle fairly well, but have no idea how these grits relate to the ratings of Japanese whet stones, and if I would need to add any new stones to get preferred results. I have a limited budget (the same unemployment that has allowed the time to get back into cooking more seriously has also hampered funds available lol) but some of the King combo stones and the Super Stones recommended here previously to others could be done, but maybe only one or two of them and not a full set.
> 
> Sorry for the length, but wanted to get as much info out there so that you guys can help me make the right choice!


You'll probably be frustrated if you try to sharpen many hard Japanese knives on oil stones. They don't cut very fast. Water stones are the standard-of-care for J-knives. But sandpaper is also a perfectly acceptable method. Paper is cheaper in the short run but probably more expensive in the long run. You needn't spend a fortune on stones, though. I'm sure others will chime in but I think an Arashiyama 1k and a Suehiro Rika 5k would be plenty to get you started, at about $75 including shipping (from CKtG).


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I am seriously looking at the Tojiro DP as it seems to be a "value" as I can get the 240mm for under $100 (some are offering under $90 on eBay but would prob go with Cutlery and More or CKG), and my question is if this would be a good choice, or if it is really worth the double cost for one of the others?
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to those two questions is yes and probably. Yes, the Tojiro DP is a great value and a flat out good knife. Despite having knives costing three times as much I still take three Tojiro DPs to work every day. That said, I'm not gonna give up my more expensive knives, either. To me they're worth it. Will they be to you? Hard to say. Certainly more money will get better fit and finish and better steel. If you want a "laser" (knife nerd slang for a knife that's very, very thin and extremely sharp) then you'll have to pay more. It's not easy to make a blade that's both very thin and durable to work with.
Click to expand...

So maybe I should ask if the Tojiro DP gyuto is thin enough to get to the sharpness I am able to achieve from my current Pro-S Santoku? I cant seem to find too many spec's on this knife, and not being able to actually get one in my hand leaves a lot of unknowns. What I know I do not want is another heavy and thick profile like the Mundial or various Henckels and Wustof chef knives I have used in the past.

I have found that the Tojiro is supposed to be a RC60-61, but also know there is much more to steels ability to perform in a given use than just hardness so I am not 100% on this either.

Thanks for your reply!


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## boar_d_laze

Plus 1 to everything Phaedrus wrote.

With adequate sharpening skills and decent waterstones, you can get a Tojiro much sharper than anything you can put on your Pro S with any stones in the universe -- especially a Norton IB-8. By the way, it's only about $20 to replace the Norton with a new one. Well worth it.

One of the hurdles you're going to face is sharpening kit. I think you'll find -- I do anyway -- that nearly all of your particular European knives actually sharpen faster and better on oilstones (used without oil) than they do on waterstones -- which means, or should mean, picking up something like an Arkansas stone or two to complete that set, and buying a separate, waterstone sharpening kit for your Japanese knife -- which will more than likely become knives as you start replacing your low performing Euros.

You will certainly find a huge difference between even entry level, good Japanese knives and what you're currently using. There's also substantial difference between the "student" level Tojiro DP / Fujiwara FKM / Misono Moly, etc., with the "professional" grade knives which mostly start at about 50% more money and go up from there. Whether or not you want the difference is another story. It's perhaps as much about personality as it is about cutting onions.

_*Regarding the Tojiro:*_

It's a very nice knife for the price that has undergone some improvements over the years, including changing the hagane from mystery "Swedish steel" to VG-10. Despite the fact that they've done a lot to improve fit and finish (call it mediocre+), the big issue has always been the handle which is still pretty boxy and unrefined. A lot of people find it uncomfortable for that reason alone, and others think of it as overlarge. Personally, I have a lot of tolerance for just about any handle, but would never buy a DP because it's "cladded." Another issue entirely, one which probably doesn't apply to you at all, and I bring up only to let you know my bias.

The DP is neither particularly thick nor particularly thin. IIRC Tojiro ships its knives sharps, but can't really remember what the factory edge is like. The factory geometry is OK except around the heel where it's too thick but can be thinned. The old Swedish steel knives were exceptionally durable with great edge holding, I expect the newer VG-10s give up a little in those areas, but sharpen more easily and even sharper. In any case, we're talking about nuance and not leaps and bounds.

It's got a decent, but not great French profile. Not good enough to be really exciting, but not bad enough to get in the way either.

_*Others:*_

FWIW, I like both the Fujiwara FKM and Misono Moly as entry level knives over the Tojiro mostly for profile, F&F and handle.

The next full step up in price and quality includes knives like the MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Hiromoto AS and G3, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, etc. These tend to be very good all-around chef's knives, but are sufficiently idosyncratic that finding the best matches for you involves finding out what characteristics you value most. For what it's worth, I most often recommend MAC Pro and Masamoto VG.

There are a few OEM knives which blur the price/performance line. I'm especially thinking about JCK's lines of Kagayakis. The VG-10 is a very good knife, but with a smallish handle and some sharpening issues which may or may not bother you. The "CarboNext" (what a terrible name!) is the current hot buzz, but it's only been available for a few weeks -- not long enough for anyone to develop an informed opinion. There's a lot of speculation that it's a Kikuichi (formerly Ichimonji) TKC under an OEM name.

Speaking of which, the Kikuichi TKC is another outstanding knife and made with a better alloy than either the MAC or Masamoto.

I'm assuming you don't want to get into Japanese handled knives.

BDL


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an older Norton combo India oil stone that I have been using for years with water. It shows wear, and the fine side was damaged when a friend was helping out about 10 years ago and there is a crack that separates it 1/4 so I have been using only 3/4 of it for a while.
> 
> I use two different grades of Nikken wet paper glued to hardwood blocks for finishing/ polishing. 1200 and 2000. I can get reasonably acceptable results due to a steady hand and holding angle fairly well, but have no idea how these grits relate to the ratings of Japanese whet stones, and if I would need to add any new stones to get preferred results. I have a limited budget (the same unemployment that has allowed the time to get back into cooking more seriously has also hampered funds available lol) but some of the King combo stones and the Super Stones recommended here previously to others could be done, but maybe only one or two of them and not a full set.
> 
> Sorry for the length, but wanted to get as much info out there so that you guys can help me make the right choice!
> 
> 
> 
> You'll probably be frustrated if you try to sharpen many hard Japanese knives on oil stones. They don't cut very fast. Water stones are the standard-of-care for J-knives. But sandpaper is also a perfectly acceptable method. Paper is cheaper in the short run but probably more expensive in the long run. You needn't spend a fortune on stones, though. I'm sure others will chime in but I think an Arashiyama 1k and a Suehiro Rika 5k would be plenty to get you started, at about $75 including shipping (from CKtG).
Click to expand...

I have read here more than once that the J-knives and oil stones are not a good match up, but I have to be totally honest that I have zero experience with any Japanese waterstones, and have more questions than knowledge on them as well.

So far the only ones I have even attempted to price are the super stones and a couple of the kings, but have nothing to compare the information with other than budget.

I would like to try and stay under $100 for stones (consider that almost buys a pallet of landscape stone lol) but really have not been able to even determine if that is plenty or not nearly enough to even get started.

I guess it would be an advantage if my sharpening apparatus could evolve with my collection over time etc.


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## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> Plus 1 to everything Phaedrus wrote.
> 
> With adequate sharpening skills and decent waterstones, you can get a Tojiro much sharper than anything you can put on your Pro S with any stones in the universe -- especially a Norton IB-8. By the way, it's only about $20 to replace the Norton with a new one. Well worth it.
> 
> One of the hurdles you're going to face is sharpening kit. I think you'll find -- I do anyway -- that nearly all of your particular European knives actually sharpen faster and better on oilstones (used without oil) than they do on waterstones -- which means, or should mean, picking up something like an Arkansas stone or two to complete that set, and buying a separate, waterstone sharpening kit for your Japanese knife -- which will more than likely become knives as you start replacing your low performing Euros.
> 
> You will certainly find a huge difference between even entry level, good Japanese knives and what you're currently using. There's also substantial difference between the "student" level Tojiro DP / Fujiwara FKM / Misono Moly, etc., with the "professional" grade knives which mostly start at about 50% more money and go up from there. Whether or not you want the difference is another story. It's perhaps as much about personality as it is about cutting onions.
> 
> _*Regarding the Tojiro:*_
> 
> It's a very nice knife for the price that has undergone some improvements over the years, including changing the hagane from mystery "Swedish steel" to VG-10. Despite the fact that they've done a lot to improve fit and finish (call it mediocre+), the big issue has always been the handle which is still pretty boxy and unrefined. A lot of people find it uncomfortable for that reason alone, and others think of it as overlarge. Personally, I have a lot of tolerance for just about any handle, but would never buy a DP because it's "cladded." Another issue entirely, one which probably doesn't apply to you at all, and I bring up only to let you know my bias.
> 
> The DP is neither particularly thick nor particularly thin. IIRC Tojiro ships its knives sharps, but can't really remember what the factory edge is like. The factory geometry is OK except around the heel where it's too thick but can be thinned. The old Swedish steel knives were exceptionally durable with great edge holding, I expect the newer VG-10s give up a little in those areas, but sharpen more easily and even sharper. In any case, we're talking about nuance and not leaps and bounds.
> 
> It's got a decent, but not great French profile. Not good enough to be really exciting, but not bad enough to get in the way either.
> 
> _*Others:*_
> 
> FWIW, I like both the Fujiwara FKM and Misono Moly as entry level knives over the Tojiro mostly for profile, F&F and handle.
> 
> The next full step up in price and quality includes knives like the MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Hiromoto AS and G3, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, etc. These tend to be very good all-around chef's knives, but are sufficiently idosyncratic that finding the best matches for you involves finding out what characteristics you value most. For what it's worth, I most often recommend MAC Pro and Masamoto VG.
> 
> There are a few OEM knives which blur the price/performance line. I'm especially thinking about JCK's lines of Kagayakis. The VG-10 is a very good knife, but with a smallish handle and some sharpening issues which may or may not bother you. The "CarboNext" (what a terrible name!) is the current hot buzz, but it's only been available for a few weeks -- not long enough for anyone to develop an informed opinion. There's a lot of speculation that it's a Kikuichi (formerly Ichimonji) TKC under an OEM name.
> 
> Speaking of which, the Kikuichi TKC is another outstanding knife and made with a better alloy than either the MAC or Masamoto.
> 
> I'm assuming you don't want to get into Japanese handled knives.
> 
> BDL


BDL

Thanks for your input, and sorry for making you repeat yourself yet once again on some of this. I will try to keep my answers/questions in your same order.

Since $20 is well within budget, and my norton is well worn from years with various hunting and pocket knives I agree with your suggestion. It would allow me to leave the current one for the smaller knives where it's length is not an issue while having a full length and flat new one for the German kitchen knives. Where would the better places to source one be?

Though your later comments (and previous in other threads) leads me to believe I may end up replacing many of the Germans with Japanese knives etc until that happens will I be able to use any of the recommended water stones even for less aggressive polishing or finishing, or would it be better to stick with the current mish mosh system I have been using? How about the rougher side of the Norton for reshaping or repairing the entry level J-knives (though somehow that sounds just plain scary or wrong lol).

Considering your thoughts on being able to get even the entry level Tojiro considerably sharper then is even possible on the Germans with just a couple different waterstones, and the fact this is basically what I am after combined with the ability to actually hold that sharpness for a reasonable amount of time this may be a good path for me no matter if they are at "student level" etc What I mean is that I know more than a few professionals who not only learned with lesser knives than the Germans I am now using, but also those much more skilled than myself are using the same or lessor knives every day.

It seems I am allowing myself to somehow get confused between why I was looking at changing or getting a new knife or knives in the first place, and all the great products, reviews, information, and talk about performance.

I mean some of the knives discussed in other threads and forums are seriously impressive, and I wonder if I am just getting "caught up" in the escalation of quality or performance which I really do not think is a good thing considering use and skills etc, BUT then again I have always and still am drawn to quality over price.

Since I have no problem with OEM or house brands I will be looking into your other suggestions soon as well, but there is a point in price where the little extra is not worth worrying about and I normally end up either finding the value in the lower end or making the jump to quality so I would expect the same with this purchase.

I intend to be checking into the Fujiwara FKM as well.

I know you recommend the Mac Pro a lot (yes I have taken the time to read through many other threads before posting lol) but for some reason it just looks flimsy or "odd", and at a typical $170 it is just too short a jump up to some of the more highly recommended knives. Just my totally unprofessional first hand impression so take it for what it is worth etc.

Also what do you think about the Hattori? Both the HD and the JCK exclusive members design? There is just something about the members design that screams both quality and performance when I look at them. Not as pretty as the clad ones, but just seem very good on fit and look lightening fast.

You nailed it on the handles. Not that I have a problem with the Japanese handles, and have actually thought they felt good the few times I have held or used one etc, but more that I do not want to confuse things anymore than I have already


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## phaedrus

You can certainly try your current oil stones- if you find them satisfactory, you've saved a few bucks! I don't mean to be dogmatic, I'm just a big fan of water stones. But anything that can scratch an edge can sharpen it.

I would say that you're more likely to get a sharp knife from Tojiro than from any other manufacturer. I would rate their OOTB sharpness as superior even to Shun. In fact, I got a Tojiro nakiri that I didn't even need to sharpen before taking it to work! Apparently they've put a lot of work into bumping up the level of the factory edge. Fit and finish of the recent ones also seems improved over my oldest ones. The FKM is a bit cheaper but probably not worth it. The Tojiro steel can take a more acute edge than the Fujiwara's, with the exception of the FKH (high carbon)- that particular line is a screaming bargain if you can deal with carbon.

The Hattori HDs are really nice. I still carry one in my work case. The older ones seemed to chip pretty easily; I repaired two for a coworker that looked like they fell down a garbage disposal. The newer ones are reputed to be much better. Fit and finish is uniformly superb on the HD, and they're very attractive knives. The FH is a cut above, though. In many respects the FH is one of my very favorite knives. Fit and finish on mine was immaculate, and I've never held a more comfortable handle. Everything about the knife is near-perfect. Unfortunately, though, I'm kind of a fetishist where knives are concerned. Ultimately I decided I didn't really want to keep a $250 knife that's made of VG-10. While it's a good "starter" steel it can't compete with the better powdered- and tool-steels for edge retention and the ability to hold acute angles. The FH was supposed to be released in a Cowry-X version but three years later it hasn't happened. In the end I sold it and moved on to some knives that hold an edge a bit longer. That said, I will probably break down and buy another one someday!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif

The CarboNext really does appear to be a rebranded Ichimonji/Kikuichi. It feels the same on the stones and takes a killer edge. It's too early to tell but I really think they're the same knife. I heard it from a source I consider reliable; that coupled with my experience with the stock Ichimonji and my new CarboNext have me convinced that if they're not the exact same knife they're first cousins. Again, time will tell but after using it for the day at work I'm pleased with the way the CN cuts (although to be fair the OOTB edge was flat-effing _terrible!_).

I will point out that Mark recently dropped the price of the Kikuichi-branded TKCs. Those really are guarenteed to be the same as the Ichimonji version. I'd say the new price makes them even more irresistable. In fact I'd have purchased that over the CN if CKtG only carried the suji in a 300mm.

BTW, while I don't share BDL's dislike of Warikomi and San-Mai blades, the TKCs & CarboNexts are mono-steel knives. Some will find that very attractive. To me it's not a big deal either way. FWIW I would say the Ichimonji TKC is my favorite gyuto. YMMV.


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## lennyd

Feels weird to be quoting myself but I think I forgot to actually answer this previously in any depth.

"It seems I am allowing myself to somehow get confused between why I was looking at changing or getting a new knife or knives in the first place, and all the great products, reviews, information, and talk about performance."

I wanted to expand on this as I believe it should help with everyone's suggestions.

What I have found since having the extra time to spend preparing decent meals again after being short on time for many years is I have not been using the chefs knife (mundial elegance 8") that much anymore and find I have been automatically grabbing the Santoku without really even realizing it. After noticing this I started thinking about it and I just enjoy it more and find it more comfortable and efficient. I lend this to the lighter weight, sharper edge, and my now realized preference to slice and chop as opposed rock and pump etc.

This was what prompted me to start investigating what else was out there (and that time factor again, damn I am dangerous with too much of it lmao) and ran into all this information on so many really nice looking options that so many feel will out perform pretty much my entire collection. It is a bit overwhelming, and since it has been less than a week it is a lot to absorb.

Since I have reshaped, back beveled,  and sharpened my current kitchen knives (and even re done some asymmetrical that could not take a reasonable acute edge of any kind), and found that the only ones that will take any kind of an acute edge that I am in any way happy with are the thinner Henckels (namely the Santoku and the 6" util. and almost the slicer) and this combined with all the new information has brought me to this point.

Maybe I am additionally a bit mixed up from most of my sharpening experience being with other different items that have thicker shorter blades and my experience finding that the thinner kitchen knives I have (thinner than the hunting and pocket, not just the three I mention earlier) wont really take much more of an angle etc. I had taken some of these to nearly 15* to only have to go back and bring them back to 22-25* so that the edges were not completely folding over constantly.

The three I find I like most are the ones with thinner blades, are also the hardest blades, and are at the most acute angles.

And again this is with my unusual sharpening equipment.

Also as far as sharpening and related equipment goes I think I have to be careful because this create some kind of OCD behavior (well maybe not compared to some I have read on the net, but everyone around my home has thought this more than once I am sure) and if the water stones produce the results so many claim I do not think I will have a problem with them as much as with making decisions between them and possibly ending up with too many over time.

From what you and BDL are saying about the possible edge that can be had with the low cost Tojiro on the right stones, the superior potential of so many other knives I have to be cautious of the addiction factor as well. As an example a friend brought his Wustofs back to the shop who just sharpened them after borrowing an inexpensive pocket knife that he found after testing was sharper than his $500 "set" that he just paid way to much to have sharpened. I dont think that is as much about anything I did as much as what people will accept as "sharp" and I can not wait until I find what can be done with the wetstones!

Hope that helps to help me out and thanks again for all your replies


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## lennyd

_*"Others:*_

FWIW, I like both the Fujiwara FKM and Misono Moly as entry level knives over the Tojiro mostly for profile, F&F and handle."

BDL the Fujiwara FKM looks to be an even better value than the Tojiro

Even though I do not have a handle fetish I can see it is more streamlined or matched to the blade, and from the picture looks that it will have a better feel etc.

Can you expand on the F&F and profile difference?

Also having to do this all through pictures and spec is so much different than putting one in your hand.

"BTW, while I don't share BDL's dislike of Warikomi and San-Mai blades, the TKCs & CarboNexts are mono-steel knives. Some will find that very attractive. To me it's not a big deal either way. FWIW I would say the Ichimonji TKC is my favorite gyuto. YMMV."

Phaedrus

Since I have not used any San-Mai types that I can remember I am without opinion other than the look of some of them grow on you and are attractive.

The Kikuichi TKC and the others that you believe are the same are also nice and seem to come with great reviews, but were back to the $170 range again 

I am starting to lean towards purchasing one of the entry level knives, building up a reasonable kit of stones and experience with it all, and then possibly spending more to update in the future.

Or maybe not and just buck up the additional $100 and get it right the first time lol.

And I thought posting would make this a little easier lol.


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## phaedrus

Not a bad idea at all. The Tojiros are great values and instead of "outgrowing" them, as your sharpening skills increase you will grow_ into_ them! The knife has a lot of capability waiting to be unlocked with a little thinning and a good shapening. I still carry three of 'em in my work case and don't foresee getting rid of them in the near future. The Tojiri is san-mai/clad, if that matters (it likely won't). Most of the other "value" J-knives have similar potential, although the FKM won't have quite the "legs" as the Tojo.


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## lennyd

Thanks again for the good info.

I think I have narrowed it down to either the Fujiwara FKM or Tojiro DP mostly based on the combination of value, ability to get and hold an edge, and my own skills and needs. Much as I can see the benefits of the higher cost better overall alternatives I am finding the cost to benefit ratio "for me" not to be as high as it would be for someone who used them more often, or earned their living with them etc.

I am still questioning this decision, but it looks like the right direction.

Now I have to admit this will need some clarification "wont have quite the legs of the Tojo".

What is more important to an entry level user, Legs, handles, or fit, finish and profile?


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## lennyd

I know there was some input on wetstones, but I am finding my search for info on them very confusing.

I think my issue right now is that I have no idea how much polish I would want to be putting on either of the two knives, and just how the numbering system compares to the #2500 grit I am now using. I cant think it is in any way the same between the stones and paper since I see so many talk about 8000, 10000, and even 12000 rating on the wetstones.

Any suggestions on what I should be looking at considering my previous information?


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## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> Now I have to admit this will need some clarification "wont have quite the legs of the Tojo".


I mean you would probably use the Tojiro longer. You will outgrow the softer knife but as your sharpening ability improves the Tojiro will get better and better. If you get a really low end entry level knife you probably won't use it for long before you want to upgrade. Even as you get better ones you'll find the Tojiro to a good knife.


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## lennyd

It is now seeming like my original entry into Japanese Knives may be the right choice, and hope I can just get myself to order the Tojo before I change my mind again.

I was seeing some decent prices on combo stones, and some single ones, and am thinking that either of these knives should be ok with a 1000/6000 set up. Does that sound accurate?

Also after looking for the Norton stone to replace my current broken one for my Germans I realized that it is not the one that BDL thought it was, or at least the replacement is not looking anything like it. I am trying to figure what I may actually have before spending for a lesser one etc.

It seems like the finer side is where the difference is, and it is more of a light gray or white versus the dark gray or brownish color of the other one.


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## phaedrus

You can probably get a full sized 1k & 6k for the same or even less than the price of the combo stone, and they'll last longer, too.  I'd say a 1k & a 6K would be a good combo.  So would a 1k/5k set.  I mention this because at ChefKnivesToGo.com you could get the 1k Arashiyama and the 5k Suehiro Rika for $75 shipped.  That's a better deal than any double sided combo stone I've ever seen.  I don't  have either stone but I've queried friends that have used them extensively to good effect.  The former is considered a great budget stone and the latter is very popular even among experienced sharpeners.  The same vendor also has a combo deal on the 1k & 4k Shapton GlassStones when purchased together.  It's $99, also with free shipping.  I've used the GlassStones and really like them, although for the money you may like something different.

I'd be shocked if you didn't like the Tojiro.  The handles are tad large and blocky but the blade is terrific.  It would make a fine first knife and one you wouldn't soon outgrow.


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> You can probably get a full sized 1k & 6k for the same or even less than the price of the combo stone, and they'll last longer, too. I'd say a 1k & a 6K would be a good combo. So would a 1k/5k set. I mention this because at ChefKnivesToGo.com you could get the 1k Arashiyama and the 5k Suehiro Rika for $75 shipped. That's a better deal than any double sided combo stone I've ever seen. I don't have either stone but I've queried friends that have used them extensively to good effect. The former is considered a great budget stone and the latter is very popular even among experienced sharpeners. The same vendor also has a combo deal on the 1k & 4k Shapton GlassStones when purchased together. It's $99, also with free shipping. I've used the GlassStones and really like them, although for the money you may like something different.
> 
> I'd be shocked if you didn't like the Tojiro. The handles are tad large and blocky but the blade is terrific. It would make a fine first knife and one you wouldn't soon outgrow.


Checked those stones out, and they look to make sense for me too. I can understand the obvious benefit for spending $30 more for two stones over the combo stone.

So looks like I will go with that combo, or buck up a little for the 6k.

I just found out that this may become an X-mas gift so may have a little extra dough for a petty or? Now this may allow a chance to mix up the two between the two brands being discussed in this thread and then later compare them even being different knives.

One last question since Cutlery and more just put the Tojo's on sale (240mm is now $20 less than CKTG) I may move my order to their direction, BUT I do see a difference in the pictures (CM shows a big ole label on the left side) and they list their Tojo's as being for the US market only and can not ship outside etc. Are these different than the ones offered by others? Do they all have the large logo on the left side of the blade?

Not sure if this is just fate messing with me, but somehow it seems every time I make up my mind something throws me in a different direction.

I wouldn't be surprised if BDL came back into the thread to debate our choice, actually have to admit I was expecting more rebuttal in support for his recommendation of the Fujiwara over the Tojiro from reading other previous posts etc. Oh Well


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## lennyd

I had replied earlier today, but the sys said it was sent for review. How long does this normally take?

I checked out your recomendations on the stones, and looks fine to me and should fit into budget. 

If my prev reply is not up soon I will try to re post etc.


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## lennyd

Well since the system allowed the above post to go through, and I still do not see the previous one that was being reviewed I will hit the basics of it.

Due to finding that I may end up receiving the Gyuto as an xmas present this may end up allowing me to fit the stones and also a petty into the budget.

That said I am thinking to go with the Tojiro on the Gyuto, and then try out the Fuliwara FKM for the Petty so that I can spend some time with both of these excellent looking entry level brands, and be able to sort of compare (I know due to the difference of the sizes etc it will not be a perfect comparison)

I also received an email that directed me to a sale on the Tojiro at Cutlery and More that put the price of the 240mm Gyuto $20 below Chef Knives to Go. Only concern I have is that C & M shows a really large (almost unsightly) logo on the left side of the blade, and also has a disclaimer that these are not avail to ship outside the US. The logo is not a concern really, but none of the other show it, and that combined with the shipping restriction are making me concerned if they are offering the same knife as the others, or something they had made just for them that is somehow of lesser quality. Does anyone know about this?

And since you all have helped me to get to the point of finally making a decision the only thing I am finding puzzling from reading many of the posts here is that BDL never rebutted your suggestion of the Tojiro over the Fujwara he preferred. Not sure if he lost track of interest in the thread, but it would have been interesting and also beneficial to have seen the pro's and con's of the two debated more in depth,


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## phaedrus

I'm not positive about that; I noticed it, too.  Presumably they're the same knife underneath it all but I'm none too fond of the gaudy markings on the C&M version.  You could always try asking them.  FIWI though I will say they're a great vendor.  They ship fast and have great customer service.  I haven't purchased from them in a while due to having mostly "outgrown" their knives and not needing many gadgets.


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## boar_d_laze

No, I'm keeping up with the thread. There's nothing to "debate" as far as I'm concerned.

The DP and FKM are each good entry-level knives with slightly different strengths and weaknesses. I would have had more to say if you'd chosen a Shun or you were buying the DP as a gift for an employer, but not much. My only stake in the matter is helping you gather enough information to make your own decisions. And about the DP specifically, it's hard to warn anyone against a recommendation with which I agree.

Phaedrus and I sing harmony from the same hymn book. We're not word for word, but there isn't much we actually disagree abut.

It's funny because I did get into something of a contretemps with Chris Belgium over his recommendation of the FKM as a birthday gift for a spouse. He seemed to think that pointing out imperfections meant I was dissing HIS choice as opposed to handicapping its purchase in a different context. Nice knife, but not a Masamoto. It's fair to say the same thing about the DP -- especially "the NEW" DP.

FWIW, the vast majority of my own knife set is French carbon from one Sabatier or another but I very seldom recommend carbon Sabatiers unless I'm specifically asked because it's not what most people want. Much the same is true for my Konosuke -- I love it like a Sab, but it's frikkin' expensive and not for everyone. The point isn't to get you to validate my own decisions by repeating them. Rather it's to help you limit the universe of knives to a few very good choices within the context of what you want.

I'm a big fan of both CKTG and C&M, if a bigger fan of CKTG. But you don't have my history with Mark and considering the price difference CKTG makes a lot of sense. Just to throw in a little local color, C&M is one of the competitors Mark really respects. Based on the little bit to be gleaned from the pic on the C&M website, the Tojiro logo is stencilled ink. It's more than likely to wear off with normal use and cleaning, but take a while to do so. Don't be surprised if that logo is tied to C&M's discount in some way. They are masters of grabbing limited stock opportunities.

The stone choices look very good too. If you can afford a little more, the combination of Bester 1.2K and Arashiyama (6K) are worth the money. I also recommend the Naniwa, pre-mounted, 1cm SS stones (from Sharpening Supplies) to beginners a lot, but I'm not sure that anyone who knows his way around a Norton India combi needs what they have to offer.

BDL


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## lennyd

First off let me say both of you have been great in this process, and I really appreciate your time explaining it all in such detail!

No I am not trying to gain a stain on the tip of the nose, but it has been an a really big help..

I just got off the phone with Mark at CKTG (thanks for that recommendation as well) and it was a bit strange how our conversation almost was to script of this thread. Since it is easier to just talk it up than type it out I have managed to put together a proper list for this, and it will include both brands, and one of the stone combo's offered earlier.

Due to the upcoming holiday and the exchange of gifts etc I have come to the decision that I will be giving the 210mm Tojo (to someone who really needs to learn their Chinese set with burrs thicker than the blade is not sharp) as a gift, and the 240mm Fuji will be my choice for my own along with either a Tojo or Fuji 120 petty.

I am relieved to have made a decision (finally lol) and one that I am comfortable with. Plus at the current price points it made it a very easy decision over the Germans.

Thanks again to all, and I cant wait to see how the future thread on sharpening goes


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## lennyd

Oh almost forgot this.

A big ole thanks to Mark at CKTG for the time he spent going over this.

This guy is a class act!


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## lennyd

"fkm and dp are both good entry level knives with diff strengths and weakness"

The details of these strengths etc, and figuring which of them to be more important, and to which type of use, skill level, and expectations are what I was hoping to gain from a healthy debate over the two.

If You search the net or here there is plenty of information around on the higher end prods, and the brands that have had their time as the new flavour etc, but the information is more limited on the lower or entry level end. 

Without holding one in your hand or actually using one it is hard to know if the handle size or design is a real issue, or if blade design, material, edge holding ability and even feel make up for one or another downfall. Plus for the countless numbers of us with limited or no experience w J knives it is difficult to compare some of the stronger points made due to experiences being w German or lower levels etc.

I do not like car based analogies but I know I am not the only one who feels though respectful of the quality and precision of higher end Japanese autos that they are also boring and can lack the personality and excitement of their various euro and us counterparts. Somehow all the emphasis on engineering causes to miss on the design aspect and big time.

Knives and autos are very diff prods, and it seems so are the results coming from the east!


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## lennyd

"not sure if anyone who knows his way around an india combo stone"

After taking a good look over my current stone I had found it is actually a combo india/washita stone.

Have not been able to nail down exactly which one yet, but it is looking like the less agressive side made be a soft ark. From info I have so far it should be someware between 400 and 1000.

Knowing this would you guys agree I would be better getting a hard blk ark stone to add for my germans and hunting knives?


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## phaedrus

Mark is a great guy!  And he's a quick study- when he arrived at KF he began asking around to see what we wanted to see him carry.  Well, in short order he's pretty much become my go-to dealer!  It's hard to find any store, web or brick-and-mortar, with the selection of Japanese knives he & Sue offer.  He offers great advice as well as service before and after the sale.  I never buy anything without checking CKtG first.


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## lennyd

I am not having any success with an ID of my current norton stone. Would you guys agree that since the india side is pretty much like new that I should just pick up a hard blk ark stone?

Also ended up going with the Fujiwara 240mm Gyuto and Tojiro 120mm petty for myself, and a Tojiro 180mm Gyuto for my friend (I hope she takes better care of it than the current ones) and only have to get the list together for the wetstones.

Is there any real difference with the stones suggested? Do the glass stones feel and work the same? I am still toying with the king combo due to it's cost and just to be able to get a feel for what these things are and how they work compared to what I have used in the past etc.

And one last question, should I be putting my Pro-S on eBay now or waiting until I receive and check out the J knives? Are you sure there is a much a difference as I have allowed myself to expect?


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## phaedrus

The GlassStones "work" the same but as all stones, they have a slightly different feel. I don't really have the best vocabulary for comparing the feel of stones, I guess. I'd say the GSs are a little bit harder than some but have a decent feel. Overall they wear better than average. Some of them tend to glaze a little faster than average, though. I think the price is pretty fair for what you get relative to other brands. If you're just starting out, though, they're probably not the best deal- they're more expensive by far than your entry level stones from King, Sanyo and Arashayama. Once exception might be the 1k/4k combo for $99 with free shipping that you can get from ChefKnivesToGo.com. That's a pretty good deal. Still probably not the best thing for a sharpening beginner, though.

If you can get a few bucks for your Pro-S you might was well. Your Fujiwara will leave it for dead. You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> The GlassStones "work" the same but as all stones, they have a slightly different feel. I don't really have the best vocabulary for comparing the feel of stones, I guess. I'd say the GSs are a little bit harder than some but have a decent feel. Overall they wear better than average. Some of them tend to glaze a little faster than average, though. I think the price is pretty fair for what you get relative to other brands. If you're just starting out, though, they're probably not the best deal- they're more expensive by far than your entry level stones from King, Sanyo and Arashayama. Once exception might be the 1k/4k combo for $99 with free shipping that you can get from ChefKnivesToGo.com. That's a pretty good deal. Still probably not the best thing for a sharpening beginner, though.
> 
> If you can get a few bucks for your Pro-S you might was well. Your Fujiwara will leave it for dead. You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


I am always amazed what things sell for on eBay, and especially so right before the holidays. This year appears to be no different and they are selling used for around what I got them for new. There are always deals to be had etc, but the bidders seems to come in droves this time of year.

Would the gyuto be able to replace a 8" pro-s slicer? I know it is a little taller but

Have to think the stones are going to be a personal preference thing. I have read around the net that some stones are much softer than others, and can be prone to being gouged. It normally looks like human error etc, and I am not sure if this means I actually want one that is harder. I have learned both a high pressure method for repair and setting angle etc, but also a light touch when needed from using the wet paper. So I am not thinking the softer stone should be a problem in the higher finer grits, but that is purely an educated guess at best.

Still a little unsure on what to do with the waterstones. I like the value of the combo, but think (think being the main thing here lol) it looks like spending a little more now on the single stones may provide a better value in the long run. Well as long as I choose ones that I will still be using into the future.

The king 800/6000 combo is obviously the least expensive at $41, and the Arashiyama 1000 seems like a good stone that I should not outgrow too quickly, and would be looking like a good choice for the lower grit if I go with the two separate stones. I am having an issue deciding on the finer stone though, and am not sure how I need to compare the Arashiyama 6000 and the Suehiro Rika 5000.

Will these work and feel the same? What about the results on the edge?

To be honest I am not sure how accurate grading is, and if I would even notice a difference, or for that matter if someone experiences with wetstones would etc. Maybe there is a large change in polish produced, and maybe there is not, but I do know I have no idea at all on figuring that out 

I mean if I go with the less expensive alternative it would allow for the purchase of an additional knife, but that is just not worth it if it also means I am going to go nuts resharpening or be buying new stones in 6 months either.

Then I am still needing to look into those glass stones more, but was not wanting to complicate things more and hope I could write them off due to being higher cost, but my mind keeps going to them as well.

Is there any easy way to compare and make this decision?


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## lennyd

> You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden.


Wow if this pans out like that I will be smiling more than that emoticon (which is also one of my favorites)


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## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow if this pans out like that I will be smiling more than that emoticon (which is also one of my favorites)
Click to expand...

More truth than poetry, as a buddy of mine used to think. Everything you thought you knew about knives will be re-evaluated once you use a good J-knife.


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## lennyd

Great to hear

Any thoughts on my questions on waterstones?

I am leaning towards the combo and using the $ saved for another knife.


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## lennyd

Placed the final order for this stuff today, and ended up going with the Shapton Glass 2K stone for now. Will decide on any additional stones after getting more familiar with all this while cleaning up the factory edge.

Hope I made the right choices, and will deff write up what I think, what I find and any problems I may encounter etc.

Thanks again!


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## phaedrus

Why did you go with the 2k?  Just curious.  A 1k would be better if you only have one.  The 2k might be a little to fine as a first stone and not fine enough for a final polish.  That said, it might work fine along with your other stones.  I'm anxious to see what you think of it.  On the one hand it should be a decent beginners stone because you won't gouge it easily but in a way a soft stones forces you to learn to hold your angle properly.  Also, I realize it's tempting to save a few bucks on the stones and apply it towards another knife, but I don't think that's the way to go.  I'd rather have one good knife and the tools to keep it toasty sharp than several blades with mediocre edges.  Just my $0.02.


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> Why did you go with the 2k? Just curious. A 1k would be better if you only have one. The 2k might be a little to fine as a first stone and not fine enough for a final polish. That said, it might work fine along with your other stones. I'm anxious to see what you think of it. On the one hand it should be a decent beginners stone because you won't gouge it easily but in a way a soft stones forces you to learn to hold your angle properly. Also, I realize it's tempting to save a few bucks on the stones and apply it towards another knife, but I don't think that's the way to go. I'd rather have one good knife and the tools to keep it toasty sharp than several blades with mediocre edges. Just my $0.02.


2k hmmm well I guess the 1K would have made more sense at first impression, and you did hit it on the nose with the point of the current stone(s) I have, and I know I am going to need to add to my wetstone collection, but I am thinking the 1k 4k combo stone at the discount would have been a great choice and I will prob go with that (unless I do not like the 2k glass stone for some reason) soon as the funds are available. So the 2K seemed to be a good split, and would allow me an intro into wetstones which would allow me to put the factory edge to improved sharpness while not duplicating one of the stones in the discounted combo.

I am also watching a few inexpensive stones on eBay and there all 800-1k. I really wanted to get a chance to check these grits out in comparison to what I am used to using before making any high dollar decisions on stones.

Maybe if my eBay listings sell soon enough there will be time to get more stones under the tree (and some of the other things I need to get for others, it is Christmas you know lol) as opposed to just plain old coal 

And I totally agree on the value of keeping everything "toasty sharp" and lets remember that is how I got started in this whole thing to start with


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## phaedrus

How is the search going? Have you received your new knives yet? I'm anxious to see what you think of them and whether or not BDL and I steered you wrong!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> How is the search going? Have you received your new knives yet? I'm anxious to see what you think of them and whether or not BDL and I steered you wrong!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


I have received the initial order (still will need additional stones) which included the Tojiro Santoku and Shapton stone. The Fujiwara ended up being a present to me that I will not get until the 25th, and will comment soon after.

First impression of the Tojiro seems to match what you guys had advised. Handle is larger than my Germans, good F and F, reasonable balance, nice and thin, sharper than expected OOTB, and overall a very nice product.

One thing that I did not expect on this blade was that it had more belly than I anticipated. Maybe because the Pro S is santoku is really sort of flat is just makes it seem more, but after I get some real time in with it I will know more.

My first thought was one you all should find interesting, and that was that I can not wait until my budget allows for a higher end purchase because if this is the low end I can not wait to see what the mid to upper level offers.

Plus for the excellent price on this knife I was very impressed with the overall quality, finish, and feel, but mostly was thinking that for this price level I have a knife that is already sharpened more acutely than my Pro S, nearly as sharp OOTB as what took a good amount of my time to do with them, and will actually hold the edge without needing constant attention. I keep thinking I can not wait to see how much the edge can be improved!

Also much as the handle is larger than what I am used to it did not feel too awkward or impossible, but deff was different. I do not expect it to be a problem with this one, but it could possibly be an issue with the petty (that I also will not see until the 25th) because I do not expect to be using a pinch grip on the petty.

Will follow up on the others soon as I get to use them, and expect to see some questions from me on wetstones and what to add to the 2K soon


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## phaedrus

Yeah, the Tojiro santoku does have more belly than you normally see on that pattern. I knew that but it never occurred to mention it since I don't have much use for santokus. I do have one in my "beater block" at home but it's just a cheap one (Kershaw Kai Wasabi) that I've had for years. Somehow I missed that you were shopping for one- I was thinking gyuto. My bad, as they say in the vernacular./img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif The newer Tojiros have a superb factory edge as you've noticed. I just got my 4th Tojiro DP a few days ago. And bear in mind, I have much more expensive knives.

I'm glad you're pleased with your new toy. I look forward to seeing how you like the Fujiwara come X-mas time.


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## lennyd

I am not sure I mentioned the idea of getting a Santoku, but at the price levels I could not see any reason not to upgrade from the Pro S on this one as well.

Since I was not happy with the edge on my current 8" Mundial Chefs I found myself using the Pro S santoku more often as I was able to get a good enough edge that it actually cut pretty well. So if the Fujiwara gyuto is a winner the santoku may end up being used less often and not be as much of a concern with the belly etc.

Right now I am really hoping that the handle on the Tojiro petty is a little smaller than the one on the santoku otherwise I may be doing some swapping out in the new year, but time will tell and I want to give them all a bit of actual use before making any solid decisions or comments.

There are so many options and I really want to get some time on the stones as well to be sure I know what I am wanting before making any higher dollar decisions in the future.


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## lennyd

> The newer Tojiros have a superb factory edge as you've noticed.


Any idea what they finish to?


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## phaedrus

I have no idea.  It's probably a belt or a wheel, I'm not sure.  A bit of convex, though.  Compared to the Shuns I've seen the Tojiros are a bit sharper.  And they're much sharper than the CarboNext was new, and sharper than my Ichimonji TKC was.  My Akifusa & Hiro AS were used so I can't comment on the original edge.


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## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> I have no idea. It's probably a belt or a wheel, I'm not sure. A bit of convex, though. Compared to the Shuns I've seen the Tojiros are a bit sharper. And they're much sharper than the CarboNext was new, and sharper than my Ichimonji TKC was. My Akifusa & Hiro AS were used so I can't comment on the original edge.


Was nice that it had a nice edge on it OOTB

So from what your saying, and what I am seeing should the 2K glass stone improve on the factory edge?


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## phaedrus

It depends on your technique.  I'm sure the factory finish is at least that grit, maybe better.


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## lennyd

I think I am going to wait until everything gets unwrapped next weekend, and then look it all over closely and actually use them before touching them to a stone 

It seems the whole idea of these knives holding such a better edge is just getting the better of my curiosity, and I can not wait until I can get to test just how good I can get them, and also maybe just how good my actual skill may be lol

Since I do not expect to have to re profile any of these for a while would you agree I would be better getting a 5k or 6k stone before a 700 or 800?

Really wanted to see how the glass stone is before deciding on finer stone, but from what you said above I may be needing or wanting one sooner rather than later.


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## boar_d_laze

> Since I do not expect to have to re profile any of these for a while would you agree I would be better getting a 5k or 6k stone before a 700 or 800?


Probably not. Your 2K is not a good choice as the go-to for basic sharpening. It's better for touch ups or as a final stone for knives performing tasks which want a little "bite," like butchering red meat for instance.

An 800 will probably be more useful as a first stone in a normal progression, and so should be your next choice. If you're going to keep the GS 2K and aren't comitted to GS for the rest of your set, I recommend the Bester 800 as your next stone. The Bester is plenty fast, but is still pretty forgiving for the grit level. You have to remember that coarse stones have consequences, and any one of a number of 1Ks (or a Bester 1.2K in particular) would have been a safer choice.

FWIW, your idea that the GS 2K would be "a good split" is _probably_ false. I'm stressing _probably_ because you can _probably_ make the GS 2K work. Let's just say your reasoning flies in the face of what works easiest and best for most people and you're creating a more difficult task than is absolutely necessary. It's not just the grit level, it's also the quality of the stone. You'd have a much better chance of making it work well with a Naniwa or Nonpareil aoto than a GS.

If you're going to continue adding stones to your set, you'll want something like an Arashiyama/Takenoko (6K) after that. Although you could easily chase a GS 2K with many 8Ks, the Arashiyama is likely as much polish as your Tojiro will ever want.

An 800 will pull a wire very quickly and can handle minor repairs, but it's not fast enough to do a good job of moving a lot of metal. So you'll eventually want something seriously fast -- like an Omura or pink brick -- for when you need to do repairs or re-profiling. If nothing goes wrong, that can probably wait a year or so.

BDL


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## phaedrus

The GlassStone isn't a stone you choose because it's fun to use. It has virtues but a nice feel isn't among them. The GS is fairly hard, making it less forgiving of poor form. If I was going to suggest a 2k stone for a relative beginner I'd suggest the Naniwa Aotoshi. It's softer & muddier (which I happen to love) and much more forgiving. It polishes well without a lot of hard work. Yes, 2k is a non-optimal choice but if it works with your other stones it will probably be okay.

I honestly don't know what I think of the Ohmura. It feels terrible, like dragging your knife across the sidewalk. It wears somewhat quickly if you can stand it long enough to make it dish. It cuts rapidly on some steels but on others it seems to wear away much faster than the steel. If you're into carbon steel it may be a match made in heaven. You'll curse the heavens if you have to reprofile SRS-15 or SG-2 with it. I've never used the Pink Brick, though. A real nOOb should stay away from the uber-coarse stones, but you do need something fairly coarse. Sometimes inexperienced sharpeners avoid stones that cut too fast for fear of "ruining" a knife but you do need one that's somewhat fast. Errors accumulate with repetitions, and a finer stone will require many, many strokes to remove a lot of metal. As you repeatedly grind on the stone the inconsistencies in holding the angle will make a rounded off mess. With a coarser stones you get the work done before fatigue sets in and you muck things up. Truth be told I don't really like Aratos- they're a necessary evil. But I dislike the Shapton 120 grit GlassStone less than most. It has a gritty feel but it's the fastest cutting stone I've ever used, even including the DMT XXC. I haven't had it long enough to know how well it wears but it's so fast that it probably doesn't matter. And it has no problem with harder steels. There isn't much love anymore for the Shapton Pro stones, I guess, but the Pro aratos are still some of my favorites. The 320 cuts pretty fast, stays pretty flat and works with every kind of steel I've tried (eg VG-10, SG-2, SRS-15, O1, D2, Infi, Aogami, S30V, and a few powders of unknown origin). I think the Chocera 400 is about the best coarse stone I've tried, though. The next stone I'll be getting is the 500 Beston...I'm the only guy out there that doesn't have one yet./img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif


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## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> Since I do not expect to have to re profile any of these for a while would you agree I would be better getting a 5k or 6k stone before a 700 or 800?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not. Your 2K is not a good choice as the go-to for basic sharpening. It's better for touch ups or as a final stone for knives performing tasks which want a little "bite," like butchering red meat for instance.
> 
> An 800 will probably be more useful as a first stone in a normal progression, and so should be your next choice. If you're going to keep the GS 2K and aren't comitted to GS for the rest of your set, I recommend the Bester 800 as your next stone. The Bester is plenty fast, but is still pretty forgiving for the grit level. You have to remember that coarse stones have consequences, and any one of a number of 1Ks (or a Bester 1.2K in particular) would have been a safer choice.
> 
> FWIW, your idea that the GS 2K would be "a good split" is _probably_ false. I'm stressing _probably_ because you can _probably_ make the GS 2K work. Let's just say your reasoning flies in the face of what works easiest and best for most people and you're creating a more difficult task than is absolutely necessary. It's not just the grit level, it's also the quality of the stone. You'd have a much better chance of making it work well with a Naniwa or Nonpareil aoto than a GS.
> 
> If you're going to continue adding stones to your set, you'll want something like an Arashiyama/Takenoko (6K) after that. Although you could easily chase a GS 2K with many 8Ks, the Arashiyama is likely as much polish as your Tojiro will ever want.
> 
> An 800 will pull a wire very quickly and can handle minor repairs, but it's not fast enough to do a good job of moving a lot of metal. So you'll eventually want something seriously fast -- like an Omura or pink brick -- for when you need to do repairs or re-profiling. If nothing goes wrong, that can probably wait a year or so.
> 
> BDL
Click to expand...

Not sure how I missed your reply earlier, but I checked the thread on my mobile and never saw it. So much for my relationship with tech products lol.

Since you answered the basics of what I had responded in another thread I apologize for making you repeat yourself etc.

At least my 2K will not be a total waste (still have not called to see if Mark is kind enough to accept a return with a reorder lol) and should be good for a carver, or maybe even my non kitchen knives which I do need an updated stone for anyhow.

So it seems I would be good to go with the 800 and the 6K if I wanted to hold onto the GS 2K, but may want to go with a 1.2K and 6K later followed up with much more aggressive stone for serious repairs and re profiling? Yes that was a question lol.

Why is this so confusing?


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> The GlassStone isn't a stone you choose because it's fun to use. It has virtues but a nice feel isn't among them. The GS is fairly hard, making it less forgiving of poor form. If I was going to suggest a 2k stone for a relative beginner I'd suggest the Naniwa Aotoshi. It's softer & muddier (which I happen to love) and much more forgiving. It polishes well without a lot of hard work. Yes, 2k is a non-optimal choice but if it works with your other stones it will probably be okay.
> 
> I honestly don't know what I think of the Ohmura. It feels terrible, like dragging your knife across the sidewalk. It wears somewhat quickly if you can stand it long enough to make it dish. It cuts rapidly on some steels but on others it seems to wear away much faster than the steel. If you're into carbon steel it may be a match made in heaven. You'll curse the heavens if you have to reprofile SRS-15 or SG-2 with it. I've never used the Pink Brick, though. A real nOOb should stay away from the uber-coarse stones, but you do need something fairly coarse. Sometimes inexperienced sharpeners avoid stones that cut too fast for fear of "ruining" a knife but you do need one that's somewhat fast. Errors accumulate with repetitions, and a finer stone will require many, many strokes to remove a lot of metal. As you repeatedly grind on the stone the inconsistencies in holding the angle will make a rounded off mess. With a coarser stones you get the work done before fatigue sets in and you muck things up. Truth be told I don't really like Aratos- they're a necessary evil. But I dislike the Shapton 120 grit GlassStone less than most. It has a gritty feel but it's the fastest cutting stone I've ever used, even including the DMT XXC. I haven't had it long enough to know how well it wears but it's so fast that it probably doesn't matter. And it has no problem with harder steels. There isn't much love anymore for the Shapton Pro stones, I guess, but the Pro aratos are still some of my favorites. The 320 cuts pretty fast, stays pretty flat and works with every kind of steel I've tried (eg VG-10, SG-2, SRS-15, O1, D2, Infi, Aogami, S30V, and a few powders of unknown origin). I think the Chocera 400 is about the best coarse stone I've tried, though. The next stone I'll be getting is the 500 Beston...I'm the only guy out there that doesn't have one yet./img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif


Wow you guys continue to scare me on the glass stone. I think the idea originally was that it is easy to use aka splash and go, is not prone to cut or gouging, and could produce a nice mid level edge. I am not even sure how the 2K came about anymore as my head seems to be spinning on the waterstone subject more often than not.

Continuing to wonder if I would not have been better off going with my initial thoughts of savings with the king 800 6K combo, and then picking individual stones after getting some time on the stones, and getting a feel for them compared to the Norton and paper I have used in the past.

Far as combining any of my previous stones goes I honestly have no idea where they would fit into all of this, and I am not sure if the India portion of my Norton would even be any good on these knives at all. I think I have read (from BDL?) in another post that the harder SS does not like the Ark stones so I do not expect the Washita stone to be of much use, and it would really need a major amount of work or replacement to use for knives of this length anyhow (it only has a few small sections that are flat and not damaged).

I am really leaning towards getting the 6K Arashiyama as this one seems to be liked by just about everyone I have read discussing it, and is most likely able to produce as good an edge as I would want or at least be able to put on for a while.

As I mentioned previously I am really not sure on the stones to support the 6K. If the 2K really does not fit into the "best" set up I will find something to do with it etc, but like I questioned above I am not sure just what the differences are, or what to expect with setting up a proper progression etc.

Jumping from 1K to 6K seems like a big leap while going from 800 to 1K or 1.2K seems such a small gap.

Is there some way to make sense of it all, and be able to compare needs, skills, and what would work best????


----------



## phaedrus

First off, check out my last response to you http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63331/time-to-get-a-new-knife-suggestions#post_334900 and see if it helps.


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> First off, check out my last response to you http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63331/time-to-get-a-new-knife-suggestions#post_334900 and see if it helps.


Yes being the discussion is spread around is just escalating the confusion factor oops Sorry 

Seems those of us new to the whole J knife world have similar questions and concerns, and some of my questions were answered in the other thread before I got to ask them here.


----------



## phaedrus

> _Perhaps BDL and I are guilty of "over sharing" a bit. Normally I think it's more helpful to state my opinion, then explain the rationale for it in detail. But in this case, perhaps you'd have been better served with a "just buy this" recommendation./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif_
> Wow you guys continue to scare me on the glass stone. I think the idea originally was that it is easy to use aka splash and go, is not prone to cut or gouging, and could produce a nice mid level edge. I am not even sure how the 2K came about anymore as my head seems to be spinning on the waterstone subject more often than not.
> 
> _There's nothing wrong with the GlassStones. Some feel better than others but none are lousy. They're not ideal beginner's stone, perhaps. Did you buy it at CKtG? Why do you email them and see if they'll let you return it, assuming you haven't used it? The worst Mark can say is no. While you're at it you could call and ask for advice. He really knows his $hit when it comes to the products he sells._
> 
> _BTW, why the fear of soaking stones? Splash and go is nice but they're called water stones for a reason! It's not difficult, it just takes a bit of planning ahead. When the thermometer reads -10 I don't wake up any sooner, I just get up, start my car first, then get ready. With soaking stones you just start them soaking 20 minutes before you're gonna sharpen. Easy peasy! Some stones like the Beston can be kept in water permanently, ready to sharpen at a moments notice._
> 
> Continuing to wonder if I would not have been better off going with my initial thoughts of savings with the king 800 6K combo, and then picking individual stones after getting some time on the stones, and getting a feel for them compared to the Norton and paper I have used in the past.
> 
> _I haven't used those stones, but going by the reviews you can't go too far wrong with them. And they're not expensive._
> 
> Far as combining any of my previous stones goes I honestly have no idea where they would fit into all of this, and I am not sure if the India portion of my Norton would even be any good on these knives at all. I think I have read (from BDL?) in another post that the harder SS does not like the Ark stones so I do not expect the Washita stone to be of much use, and it would really need a major amount of work or replacement to use for knives of this length anyhow (it only has a few small sections that are flat and not damaged).
> 
> _No, you're not going to have great luck on harder steels with the Arkansas or Washita stones. You're better off saving those for your other knives._
> 
> I am really leaning towards getting the 6K Arashiyama as this one seems to be liked by just about everyone I have read discussing it, and is most likely able to produce as good an edge as I would want or at least be able to put on for a while.
> 
> _I think that's a sensible choice._
> 
> As I mentioned previously I am really not sure on the stones to support the 6K. If the 2K really does not fit into the "best" set up I will find something to do with it etc, but like I questioned above I am not sure just what the differences are, or what to expect with setting up a proper progression etc.
> 
> Jumping from 1K to 6K seems like a big leap while going from 800 to 1K or 1.2K seems such a small gap.
> 
> _I don't usually go from 1k to 6k, but I have done it and it works just fine. I promise you that it will work! If you checked out the post I linked I explained the philosophy behind it. Going from an 800 to a 1k or 6k is a near-complete waste of time: It's like selling a 2007 Accord with 75,000 miles on it to buy an another 2007 with only 50,000 miles on it._/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif_ With infinitesimally few exceptions there's no point to making a jump that isn't at least double/half- from 1k to 2k, 2k to 4k, 4k to 8k, 8k to 16 etc. _
> 
> Is there some way to make sense of it all, and be able to compare needs, skills, and what would work best????
> 
> _Don't make perfect the enemy of the good. Stop thinking you can make a stone combo that will bring about world peace, solve global warming and bring back 8-Tracks!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Just get a decent 1k (or something close- 800, 1.2k, etc) then something between 4k & 6k. Then practice with them for awhile. Again, if you're looking for a cut-and-dried, "Lenny, you should buy____________" then I will make some suggestions. Check with Mark. See if you can return the 2k, even if you have to pay return shipping. He's set up lots of nOOb-ish sharpeners and can probably help you out._
> 
> _If you want an unqualified recommendation, I'll give you this: IMHO the 1k Chocera is the best 1k stone in the world. That's a whopper of a claim but I think it's warranted. You could it and the Suehiro Rika 5k for about $130 and have an absolutely fantastic combo that would do a superior job on carbon and stainless, hard and soft knives. There are other combos but I can pretty much *guarantee* that's one you *wouldn't *regret. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't respect the 1k Chocera._


----------



## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> Phaedrus said:
> 
> 
> 
> First off, check out my last response to you http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63331/time-to-get-a-new-knife-suggestions#post_334900 and see if it helps.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes being the discussion is spread around is just escalating the confusion factor oops Sorry
> 
> Seems those of us new to the whole J knife world have similar questions and concerns, and some of my questions were answered in the other thread before I got to ask them here.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that. I guess we need to consolidate it in one place!


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phaedrus said:
> 
> 
> 
> First off, check out my last response to you http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63331/time-to-get-a-new-knife-suggestions#post_334900 and see if it helps.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes being the discussion is spread around is just escalating the confusion factor oops Sorry
> 
> Seems those of us new to the whole J knife world have similar questions and concerns, and some of my questions were answered in the other thread before I got to ask them here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry about that. I guess we need to consolidate it in one place!
Click to expand...

No need to apologize as it is most likely either my doing, or just a result of such similar questions from us Noob's


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> _Perhaps BDL and I are guilty of "over sharing" a bit. Normally I think it's more helpful to state my opinion, then explain the rationale for it in detail. But in this case, perhaps you'd have been better served with a "just buy this" recommendation./img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif_
> 
> You both have been great, both in this thread, and some of the others I have read. The way you guys put your honest opinion on a product or process is more helpful than you may imagine. The difficult part is making sense of something so new, and finding your way to a desired result (a result that may not even be fully understood from the get go).
> 
> Wow you guys continue to scare me on the glass stone. I think the idea originally was that it is easy to use aka splash and go, is not prone to cut or gouging, and could produce a nice mid level edge. I am not even sure how the 2K came about anymore as my head seems to be spinning on the waterstone subject more often than not.
> 
> _There's nothing wrong with the GlassStones. Some feel better than others but none are lousy. They're not ideal beginner's stone, perhaps. Did you buy it at CKtG? Why do you email them and see if they'll let you return it, assuming you haven't used it? The worst Mark can say is no. While you're at it you could call and ask for advice. He really knows his $hit when it comes to the products he sells._
> 
> I was waiting until after Christmas to talk with Mark as I can only imagine how busy he is right now, and no one really likes returns. Plus I wanted to be sure that the 2K really would not fit into things before even bothering him with it. If it fit better I would have had no problem holding onto it, and may end up doing so anyway if either funds improve or he does not want it back.
> 
> _BTW, why the fear of soaking stones? Splash and go is nice but they're called water stones for a reason! It's not difficult, it just takes a bit of planning ahead. When the thermometer reads -10 I don't wake up any sooner, I just get up, start my car first, then get ready. With soaking stones you just start them soaking 20 minutes before you're gonna sharpen. Easy peasy! Some stones like the Beston can be kept in water permanently, ready to sharpen at a moments notice._
> 
> Fear is not an issue, but the idea of splash and go sounded nice and sort of what I do with the current stones I have. I was actually looking forward to seeing how these wetstones perform, and if they are nice to work with in comparison to the India as so many have claimed. Hope to become a fan of them soon.
> 
> Continuing to wonder if I would not have been better off going with my initial thoughts of savings with the king 800 6K combo, and then picking individual stones after getting some time on the stones, and getting a feel for them compared to the Norton and paper I have used in the past.
> 
> _I haven't used those stones, but going by the reviews you can't go too far wrong with them. And they're not expensive._
> 
> Funny because that really was my first choice as an entry level stone made sense for keeping in a lower budget, and to combine with entry level knives. If funds do not improve soon maybe I would be wise to go this route and return the 2K, and can always update in the future as things improve (both money and skills lol)
> 
> Far as combining any of my previous stones goes I honestly have no idea where they would fit into all of this, and I am not sure if the India portion of my Norton would even be any good on these knives at all. I think I have read (from BDL?) in another post that the harder SS does not like the Ark stones so I do not expect the Washita stone to be of much use, and it would really need a major amount of work or replacement to use for knives of this length anyhow (it only has a few small sections that are flat and not damaged).
> 
> _No, you're not going to have great luck on harder steels with the Arkansas or Washita stones. You're better off saving those for your other knives._
> 
> Would the GS be any good for those other knives? They would include everything from inexpensive chinese to Japanese, US and German folders and fixed blade, with blade materials from unknown SS to 440C, 8cr15, AUS8, Carbon Steel and others.
> 
> I am really leaning towards getting the 6K Arashiyama as this one seems to be liked by just about everyone I have read discussing it, and is most likely able to produce as good an edge as I would want or at least be able to put on for a while.
> 
> _I think that's a sensible choice._
> 
> As I mentioned previously I am really not sure on the stones to support the 6K. If the 2K really does not fit into the "best" set up I will find something to do with it etc, but like I questioned above I am not sure just what the differences are, or what to expect with setting up a proper progression etc.
> 
> Jumping from 1K to 6K seems like a big leap while going from 800 to 1K or 1.2K seems such a small gap.
> 
> _I don't usually go from 1k to 6k, but I have done it and it works just fine. I promise you that it will work! If you checked out the post I linked I explained the philosophy behind it. Going from an 800 to a 1k or 6k is a near-complete waste of time: It's like selling a 2007 Accord with 75,000 miles on it to buy an another 2007 with only 50,000 miles on it._/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif_ With infinitesimally few exceptions there's no point to making a jump that isn't at least double/half- from 1k to 2k, 2k to 4k, 4k to 8k, 8k to 16 etc. _
> 
> I think I got it now!
> 
> Is there some way to make sense of it all, and be able to compare needs, skills, and what would work best????
> 
> _Don't make perfect the enemy of the good. Stop thinking you can make a stone combo that will bring about world peace, solve global warming and bring back 8-Tracks!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif Just get a decent 1k (or something close- 800, 1.2k, etc) then something between 4k & 6k. Then practice with them for awhile. Again, if you're looking for a cut-and-dried, "Lenny, you should buy____________" then I will make some suggestions. Check with Mark. See if you can return the 2k, even if you have to pay return shipping. He's set up lots of nOOb-ish sharpeners and can probably help you out._
> 
> Don't get me started on global warming lol. I may soon be making a living involving this, but am still not sure were just still recovering from an ice age, and can not imagine that our country's contribution or reduction of it is going to make as much a difference as so many tout since I believe when we shipped our wealth, manufacturing, and the various pollution that goes with it to foreign countries that do not have our regulations we lost control of all of this as well. Enough politics but just a sore point lol.
> 
> Still have an 8 track in an old chevy. Not sure if it works anymore as it has been in storage for year, but back to the topic here.
> 
> I think you have covered enough ground on the various stones, and between the two threads there is plenty of information on most of what I have seen, and more than I would prob need.
> 
> _If you want an unqualified recommendation, I'll give you this: IMHO the 1k Chocera is the best 1k stone in the world. That's a whopper of a claim but I think it's warranted. You could it and the Suehiro Rika 5k for about $130 and have an absolutely fantastic combo that would do a superior job on carbon and stainless, hard and soft knives. There are other combos but I can pretty much *guarantee* that's one you *wouldn't *regret. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't respect the 1k Chocera._
> 
> With all my new found knowledge and information I think in the end of this intro to sharpening stones for me both those stones plus the Arashiyama 1K and 6K, and the King combo (if I am stuck with the 2K GS) will be on the short list. From what all of you have posted these seem to make the most sense, and can be complimented by additional stones in the future.
> 
> Finally some sense of it all!!
Click to expand...


----------



## lennyd

A little follow up to this or first impressions after having the knives a few days.

*Fujiwara FKM 240mm Gyuto: *

Well packaged, very nice appearance, and a bit more wow factor than expected (compared to my previous etc). All included literature and info included was in Japanese (no English). Fit and finish seemed spot on, and no flaws in the handle or blade other than a slight rough spot /sharp edge on the very heel of the blade, and it is located where my hand does not rub so it was not an issue.

The profile seems excellent and was very comfortable upon initial uses, weight much lighter than expected and also in comparison of any of my previous western knives, I did not measure the balance point but it feels close to neutral or is just blade biased slightly but it is so light and agile that it does not feel like it. Being I have not used anything above 8" in a chefs for many years I initially was slightly concerned about the nearly 10" blade but this was not an issue and the extra length has already come in handy, and I am glad I went longer.

Initial sharpness OOTB was OK at best. Sharp enough to cut, but nothing impressive. It was right hand biased on the bevel, and also seemed to be of a higher degree of an angle (blunt?) than I had expected. It also seemed to be more than the expected 70/30 and likely closer to 80/20.

Since I am waiting to sort out what I am doing with whetstones yet all I had available to thin it out was my current mix matched set up, but I was able to get it much sharper with just the silicone carbide wet paper in 1000 to set and 2000 to get a slight polish. I can not wait till I get the correct stones and see how much this can improve. I am expecting to try and keep it right handed as best I can as this is something I had tried with one of the Spanish Henckels chefs knives in the past (when trying to get it to actually be somewhat sharp) and I like the set up.

Overall very happy with this purchase, and am now having to wonder just how much a pleasure the higher end knives must be considering the quality and performance of this entry level product. In comparison to my previous western knives there is well NO COMPARISON!

Only real negative I see so far would be the polished stainless blade shows every fingerprint and smudge, but I expect that worrying about that will fade over time 

Would have to call this knife an excellent value.

*Tojiro DP 120mm Petty:*

Nice packaging, very nice appearance, good fit and finish, no real rough spots besides a really small one at the very end of the handle, some of the included literature was in "Engrish" (typical English grammar issues seen with many small to mid size Japanese companies) but easily understood even if not making complete sense.

Sharpness OOTB was excellent (much more than the Fuji), DP finish was highly polished and attractive, left side logo (in English) not my favorite but OK, very nice profile for a small knife.

The double bevel on this one seemed to be right on @ 50/50.

Handle was unexpectedly small due to all the information relating to their larger knives having big boxy handles. It is a bit boxy, but at this size it seems to work well, and was very comfortable.

Only real negative was that the DP plating on the left side does not go as far down the blade towards the edge as the right side revealing about 1/3 of the blades VG-10 inner core (right side is less than 1/4 of the blade). I am not sure if this is only cosmetic or if there could be an issue with it (I expect to discuss it with Mark when I call on the stone return/exchange) but if it is not a problem I intend to keep this one, and otherwise just exchange for a same one etc.

Overall a positive on this one as well, and again appears to be an excellent value.

*Tojiro DP Santoku 170mm:*

Very nice packaging, and same literature package as the petty. Again polishing was to a high luster, and all the same with the logo too.

Very nice fit and finish, and again superior sharpness OOTB.

Profile on this one was a little different than expected as it had a bit more belly than my western Pro S Santoku. This one has the larger boxy handle that though not a real issue for my grip style it is something that I keep thinking that the company would have adjusted by now as it seems to be the most popular complaint on their larger knives.

The DP cladding on this one was much more symmetrical than the petty, and the blade seemed to receive more attention from the maker.

Though overall I am happy with this one as well (had not actually cut anything yet, but I am sure it would do it well), and would also consider it an excellent value etc I may be swapping it out for a honesuki as I am finding myself so happy with the Fuji gyuto that I do not believe I would get the use of the santoku that I have in the past when I did not have a chefs knife I was happy with.

Boy I hope I do not drive Mark out of his mind as he has been such a help, but no sense having a knife I very likely would not use.

*Tojiro DP Gyuto 180mm:*

This one shared all the good points of the other two Tojiro's, but had an even better application of the cladding.

The profile is a little fatter or wider and seemed to have just a bit more belly than the Fuji, but it is also a much shorter blade as well so I did not expect it to be the same.

Same larger boxy handle as the santoku, and again not so much an issue as many make of it.

Since this one was a gift I did not get to use it, but it felt reasonably well balanced, and also much lighter and agile than any of my previous western chefs knives.

I think this one will be perfect for the user as she seemed put off by larger knives, and though I had considered a santoku for her decided against it as she was intending to be cutting meat with it often and I thought it a better choice to go with the gyuto.

Hope I did not miss anything, and that it is helpful to anyone who like myself is looking for a good value entry into Japanese knives.

****************************************************************************

I do have a couple questions as well if anyone is able to help with etc.

Does the DP cladding need to be near the knifes edge, and if not is it an issue worth returning over?

When sharpening 70/30 should the angle the knife is held to the stone be higher on the smaller bevel or is it enough to just take fewer passes?

Do you agree that from my info so far I would be better off or get more use out of a honesuki than a santoku? I do not cut up hundreds of chickens etc, but do on occasion and also would be having to use my old Mundial chefs knife that I know would make me nuts? Have to think that there are other good uses for this type of knife from filleting fish to removing red meat from the bone etc, are there others I am not thinking of?


----------



## phaedrus

> Does the DP cladding need to be near the knifes edge, and if not is it an issue worth returning over?
> 
> _Your knife sounds ideal to me- I'd rather have less cladding. The cladding doesn't do much in practical terms._
> 
> When sharpening 70/30 should the angle the knife is held to the stone be higher on the smaller bevel or is it enough to just take fewer passes?
> 
> _You'll have to try it. You can probably just take fewer passes. The angle may be different by a bit but you'll be able to sort it out pretty easily._
> 
> Do you agree that from my info so far I would be better off or get more use out of a honesuki than a santoku? I do not cut up hundreds of chickens etc, but do on occasion and also would be having to use my old Mundial chefs knife that I know would make me nuts? Have to think that there are other good uses for this type of knife from filleting fish to removing red meat from the bone etc, are there others I am not thinking of?
> 
> _I'd rather have a honesuke than a santoku. If you have a gyuto you don't need a santoku at all. The honesuke is great for many types of boning and meat cutting as well as many things you'd use a petty or paring knife for._


----------



## lennyd

Had a chance to speak with Mark today (been buried under multiple feet of snow in an area not all that good at removing it lol) and decided on keeping the petty (same thoughts as Phaedrus above) and he agreed to take back the Santoku and I will replace it with the Honesuk. The price diff is negligible ($10) and it should get much more use.

So at least I am completely finished with knife choices and changes for now, and will not have any more questions (I hope) until one day when stepping up is in the budget  

Now still making the final decision on the Shapton 2K.  Today's discussion reminded me that the original idea was that the 2K would be a good "single stone", and that I could add to it in the future as things progressed when I could add a polishing stone and then later a more coarse stone for repairs and major re working.

Since I have not opened the 2K I can only assume from appearance and what I have found on the net that it would be too coarse for the current finish on the Tojiro's and would not improve on the factory finish, but it also appears that it would be able to improve upon the new finish on the Fujiwara (2000 grit silicone carbide paper). 

What do you think of the idea of being able to do some changes on both of these knives with the 2K?  I am thinking that it would just take additional time or strokes than using a 1K, but that it would be up to the job until the time for the more coarse 700 or 800 stone is needed (that I plan to purchase in the future).

I was actually surprised to find I was happy with the results from the 1000 wet paper on the Fujiwara. I was able to thin the blade some and raise a burr without any problem. I would consider just adding a polishing stone now if I should expect anything near the same  results from the Tojiro and VG10 blade? (yes it was a question lol)

Add to this the idea of polishing with either the Suehiro Rika 5K or Aryshiyama 6K which I would get along with the swap out of the santoku.

Does this make sense?

I guess that I am really thinking I may be better following your advice here and going with the 1K plus 5K or 6K, but am thinking I must be feeling bad about returning so much stuff. Mark did not seem to have a problem with the changes, but I hate to be like a jerk, and know how much fun returns are etc.

Since money is a bit tight right now I am really leaning towards returning the 2K and getting the Arashiyama 6K for now so I can get a good polish on both blade materials, and using the 1000 paper (or lower if needed as I have boxes of this stuff) for coarser work until I get a 1k or lower stone. Should this work OK? Is the 6K worth the extra $15 over the 5K?

Another choice I am considering since it is not that much more than the return of the 2K (extra $19)is the Arashiyama 1K and Suehiro 5K, but the reviews on the 6K are so positive I have been favoring this stone.

What do you think about this (if you make sense of the madness


----------



## lennyd

> When sharpening 70/30 should the angle the knife is held to the stone be higher on the smaller bevel or is it enough to just take fewer passes?
> 
> _You'll have to try it. You can probably just take fewer passes. The angle may be different by a bit but you'll be able to sort it out pretty easily._


Since I was changing the angle while also thinning somewhat I did my best to keep the ratio. Being this edge is not 50/50 it kind of gets a bit confusing because (to me at least) it seems while thinning (or is it back beveling?) and increasing the angle to be more acute the actual width of the bevel increases so you can not just follow any current line (the marker trick can not work etc) and your creating it all.

I did get reasonably good results from what I have available and just increasing the passes on the 70 side and using a slightly higher angle on the 30 side, but am not sure what you mean by sort it out etc.

I mean it is sharp, and though much sharper than anything I could do with the Henckels and so far is holding the edge well it does not seem anything more than the factory edge on the Tojiro, but the fact that it is not polished as much can also be misleading.

Maybe I should see if there is another thread on this, or start one etc, but then it seems even what sharp means exactly would be a subject all it's own as well.


----------



## phaedrus

Mark is a great guy and I don't want to suggest abusing his good nature. But if he's willing to let you return the Shapton you should. He'll probably be fine with it, especially since you'll likely use the money/credit to get the Suehiro Rika or something. That would be a good idea. We've discussed stones a lot, and you know my opinion- if you can have only 1 stone, get a 1k. If you're allowed two, add a 4k/5k/6k. If you have the luxury of a third, you can choose between a higher polish yet or an arato- and of the two choices the coarse stone is the smarter. I've been playing with the Beston 500 and for the money it's a really good stone. It's not as good as the 400 Chocera but much cheaper. Honestly, a great progression would be the 500 Beston for the low end, a good 1k (the Chocera if you can swing it, otherwise the Naniwa SS or the Shapton Pro 1k- it's a great stone!) and a good 4k/5k/6k. I guess the Suehiro Rika is pretty hard to beat for the money.

VG-10 isn't as easy to sharpen as carbon. Of course, that's part of why it stays sharp longer. It takes some grinding to make an impression on that steel, and the burr won't wipe off like wiping your nose, either!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


----------



## phaedrus

> I did get reasonably good results from what I have available and just increasing the passes on the 70 side and using a slightly higher angle on the 30 side, but am not sure what you mean by sort it out etc.
> 
> _Sorry, missed this part. By "sort it out" I meant that as you changed the geometry by taking a bit here and there the knife would sort of "tell you what to do." I could get all Zen and say it speaks to you if you listen...but in more practical terms you can use some magnification, too, and just see what's going on. But even with the naked eye and just "using the Force" and feeling the way the edge bites the stone you can tell if you're at the right angle._


----------



## boar_d_laze

It's a much better idea to keep the angle the same on both sides -- otherwise you'll never train your wrist to hold the correct angle and you'll have to "click in" every time you turn the knife over.

Don't let the exactitude of the numbers fool you. 70/30 seems very technical, but it isn't; it's merely shorthand for 2 to 1. You determine the ratio of asymmetry by doing nothing more sophisticated than looking at the knife. If one bevel is twice as wide as the other... there you go. That's your 70/30.

70/30 works well for most people. It's just symmetric enough for the knife to be trued on a steel, when it needs truing; and sufficiently asymmetric to avoid most wedging and pick up a touch of extra _perceived_ sharpness and not lose too much durability.

It's also very easy to sharpen, because it It nearly always takes about twice as much work to draw a burr on the first side you sharpen. So, all you have to do is draw a burr on the the side you want to be the 70, then flip the knife over and draw a burr on the other side. Inspect the knife and continue working whichever side most needs it; then chase the burr as you would normally do. In other words, do everything as you normally would just make sure you start sharpening on the proper face.

A honesuke is designed as a special purpose knife for doing the kind of poultry work, you probably don't do. Furthermore, be aware that you'll still need something heavy duty -- like a deba, chef de chef, "meat cleaver," an old beater of a chef's knife, or even a garasuke -- for splitting backs and keelbones, trimming the tips off spare ribs, etc.

In my opinion, (a) western knives are better for the heavy duty stuff because they are so much more chip resistant; and (b) a petty does the light stuff better than any of the specialty Japanese boning knives. But what do I know?

If you absolutely, positively must have a Japanese boning knife, you'd probably find a hankotsu would suit your needs better.

Be aware that any of the Japanese boning styles are not only sharpened asymmetric but forged and ground that way as well. In other words, they are not ambidextrous but are right handed unless specifically ordered left-handed. Whether or not that matters to you -- at least you know now.

In my experience, honesukes in particular are most popular with people who feel the need to complete a set of Japanese knives and who aren't really technical cutters yet. There are certainly exceptions to that. And, perhaps, the most important thing to remember is that any really sharp knife can perform just about any knife task pretty well.

If you do get any boning knife, your 2K is a pretty good finishing level -- so you may want to hold on to it or swap it for a different stone at more or less the same level.

As nice as the Suehiro Rika is, it really acts more like a 3K than a 5K and does not compare to the Arashiyama/Takenoko as a finishing stone. They do different things. The Rika is an extremely pleasant stone to use, and you can make the Rika polish up to a kinda sorta 5K level by really working the mud and breaking down the abrasive; but it's nowhere near as fast as the Arashiayama to draw a burr, nor will it give you anywhere near the same level of "slippery" polish.

It's confusing, but the grit numbers only tell you so much. Stones have their own personalities, you have to work with them to figure them out. Your best strategy (and mine too) is to ask people we trust who have used them. Of course, that means figuring out the people too -- whom you should listen to and who will only waste your time.

Phaedrus is an excellent source, btw.

At some point you're going to outgrow CT as a source of knife and sharpening advice -- in fact you may already have -- and you'll want to look in at one of the specialty boards like Fred's Cutlery Forum.

Hope this helps,

BDL


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> I did get reasonably good results from what I have available and just increasing the passes on the 70 side and using a slightly higher angle on the 30 side, but am not sure what you mean by sort it out etc.
> 
> _Sorry, missed this part. By "sort it out" I meant that as you changed the geometry by taking a bit here and there the knife would sort of "tell you what to do." I could get all Zen and say it speaks to you if you listen...but in more practical terms you can use some magnification, too, and just see what's going on. But even with the naked eye and just "using the Force" and feeling the way the edge bites the stone you can tell if you're at the right angle._
Click to expand...

Scary that I understand your point here, or at least think I do 

And the force is not something meant for mere mortals LMAO

Still I may have to invest in some decent magnification in the future as these edges are getting well beyond the ability of the 3x or 5x I currently have and it would be great to have some baseline to attach to "feel" and not have to wonder if that feeling was just gas or something.


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> Mark is a great guy and I don't want to suggest abusing his good nature. But if he's willing to let you return the Shapton you should. He'll probably be fine with it, especially since you'll likely use the money/credit to get the Suehiro Rika or something. That would be a good idea. We've discussed stones a lot, and you know my opinion- if you can have only 1 stone, get a 1k. If you're allowed two, add a 4k/5k/6k. If you have the luxury of a third, you can choose between a higher polish yet or an arato- and of the two choices the coarse stone is the smarter. I've been playing with the Beston 500 and for the money it's a really good stone. It's not as good as the 400 Chocera but much cheaper. Honestly, a great progression would be the 500 Beston for the low end, a good 1k (the Chocera if you can swing it, otherwise the Naniwa SS or the Shapton Pro 1k- it's a great stone!) and a good 4k/5k/6k. I guess the Suehiro Rika is pretty hard to beat for the money.
> 
> VG-10 isn't as easy to sharpen as carbon. Of course, that's part of why it stays sharp longer. It takes some grinding to make an impression on that steel, and the burr won't wipe off like wiping your nose, either!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


Sorry to make you go through that once more for it to fully sink in.

I believe I will end up with a 1K and either 5K or 6K for now, and then add at both ends of the spectrum later on.

So far my experience with the VG10 on the Tojiro has only been experimental. By that I mean when I took the petty to the 2000 paper it was able to change the surface of the bevel on the small section that I tested, but it was much different than the results on the same paper with the Fujiwara FKM SS. What I did find was interesting as the scratches produced were appearing to be more coarse than the factory finish, but oddly the factory finish was actually more coarse and had deeper scratches BUT also had a higher polish over these scratches but did not remove those scratches. Since the factory finish is sharp enough etc I decided to let it go until I get a decent polishing stone, and much as it seems I can't wait to start "playing" with all the new toys etc I have accepted it be better to wait.

The other thing that I still to learn or understand better is that though these two blades have similar HRC ratings (58-59 vs 60-61) it already seems that they are very different, and will sharpen much differently as well. I expect I will know better once I get the VG10 onto a proper stone etc, but so far it seems harder. Harder in HRC and also to sharpen.


----------



## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> It's a much better idea to keep the angle the same on both sides -- otherwise you'll never train your wrist to hold the correct angle and you'll have to "click in" every time you turn the knife over.
> 
> So stay between 10-15 on both sides (as best as possible etc)? The Fuji was much closer on the angle of the back/short side (and I lower this somewhat also) than what I had experience with previously when opening my Henckels Spain chefs. Sadly this is the only one I have previous experience with, was my own odd creation at around 80/20, and except for a few completely asymmetric folders (which were actually a bit of fun though a learning experience for sure).
> 
> Don't let the exactitude of the numbers fool you. 70/30 seems very technical, but it isn't; it's merely shorthand for 2 to 1. You determine the ratio of asymmetry by doing nothing more sophisticated than looking at the knife. If one bevel is twice as wide as the other... there you go. That's your 70/30.
> 
> No problem with increasing that slightly?
> 
> 70/30 works well for most people. It's just symmetric enough for the knife to be trued on a steel, when it needs truing; and sufficiently asymmetric to avoid most wedging and pick up a touch of extra _perceived_ sharpness and not lose too much durability.
> 
> It's also very easy to sharpen, because it It nearly always takes about twice as much work to draw a burr on the first side you sharpen. So, all you have to do is draw a burr on the the side you want to be the 70, then flip the knife over and draw a burr on the other side. Inspect the knife and continue working whichever side most needs it; then chase the burr as you would normally do. In other words, do everything as you normally would just make sure you start sharpening on the proper face.
> 
> Just by completely by chance, but that is for the most part how it went. Only difference was that it seemed the angle on the short side was not as acute as the long side.
> 
> A honesuke is designed as a special purpose knife for doing the kind of poultry work, you probably don't do. Furthermore, be aware that you'll still need something heavy duty -- like a deba, chef de chef, "meat cleaver," an old beater of a chef's knife, or even a garasuke -- for splitting backs and keelbones, trimming the tips off spare ribs, etc.
> 
> Wow, well since you just enlightened me to the fact that the honesuke will not be the best choice for some of the things I was mentally delegating to it I will have to rethink this some, and guess I am not completely finished with the knife decisions
> 
> Like I said earlier I do not break down lots of birds etc, but do quarter them, split breasts and the like. Of course since you mention ribs that was one of the other things I was planning on. I have the beater in the Mundial chefs knife, and do not mind using it etc, but am really not looking forward to keeping it all that long due to the soft steel and sharpening issues.
> 
> I do also have an older unknown cleaver that is unknown SS and made in Japan that I had used on and off for a long while. It is not the hardest steel, and looks like a lower end product with half tang and two sort of almost tight rivets lol, but it has done the job when called on and sharpened no worse than the westerns have.It does seem to be 440 SS, but thats a guess, and about all I know about it.
> 
> In my opinion, (a) western knives are better for the heavy duty stuff because they are so much more chip resistant; and (b) a petty does the light stuff better than any of the specialty Japanese boning knives. But what do I know?
> 
> If you absolutely, positively must have a Japanese boning knife, you'd probably find a hankotsu would suit your needs better.
> 
> Will look into this suggestion as I am not familiar with it. What is it best at?
> 
> Be aware that any of the Japanese boning styles are not only sharpened asymmetric but forged and ground that way as well. In other words, they are not ambidextrous but are right handed unless specifically ordered left-handed. Whether or not that matters to you -- at least you know now.
> 
> This to me is just different, and not a problem or real negative but like you say "what do I know".
> 
> In my experience, honesukes in particular are most popular with people who feel the need to complete a set of Japanese knives and who aren't really technical cutters yet. There are certainly exceptions to that. And, perhaps, the most important thing to remember is that any really sharp knife can perform just about any knife task pretty well.
> 
> So what exactly would you recommend using a honsuke for? I do agree on the sharp knife issue, and remember when first working in a commercial kitchen as a teenager one cook who used his 12" chef for almost everything. Trust me that I do not think I am the one to say what is the better way, but understand that I am observant of all the statements pro and con for all opinions. What I mean is that it makes absolute sense to be able to use ones skills with a sharp knife to do more than it was designed for etc, but also just as strongly on the idea of improving on that with a knife designed for the purpose at hand.
> 
> Still I need to figure out what to replace the santoku with.
> 
> If you do get any boning knife, your 2K is a pretty good finishing level -- so you may want to hold on to it or swap it for a different stone at more or less the same level.
> 
> OK now I am feeling completely bi-polar HELP!
> 
> As nice as the Suehiro Rika is, it really acts more like a 3K than a 5K and does not compare to the Arashiyama/Takenoko as a finishing stone. They do different things. The Rika is an extremely pleasant stone to use, and you can make the Rika polish up to a kinda sorta 5K level by really working the mud and breaking down the abrasive; but it's nowhere near as fast as the Arashiayama to draw a burr, nor will it give you anywhere near the same level of "slippery" polish.
> 
> More good information that I have been after on stones. Again thanks to everyone who has offered their experiences as this issue has been the most confusing.
> 
> The more I learn about these two stones I find that both sound like something I would like to have. Of course since funds will not allow it right now I still have to choose between them, and am totally leaning towards the Arashiyama 6K as currently I have nothing to apply a slipperly polish so the extra $12 should pay good dividends. Maybe at least finally a final decision on one stone wooooo hoooo!!
> 
> It's confusing, but the grit numbers only tell you so much. Stones have their own personalities, you have to work with them to figure them out. Your best strategy (and mine too) is to ask people we trust who have used them. Of course, that means figuring out the people too -- whom you should listen to and who will only waste your time.
> 
> This is a direct hit, bullseye etc. The problem I have been finding is actually being able to do this. Net searches bring up so much info that is not what one is really looking for, and so many opinions or reviews seem to be by those who have limited or no experience to compare to, and therefore is not really of much help. Maybe as I get more time into this (and later with more experience with whetstones in general) I will be able to "read" the opinions of others better, but for now it is sort of like flying blind with instruments in a foreign language. Lots of fun though
> 
> Phaedrus is an excellent source, btw.
> 
> Yes have to agree on that 1000%, and has been an absolute big help without question, and his opinions really valued!!
> 
> At some point you're going to outgrow CT as a source of knife and sharpening advice -- in fact you may already have -- and you'll want to look in at one of the specialty boards like Fred's Cutlery Forum.
> 
> Actually have been lurking in some other forums (including Freds) and getting lot's of additional information from previous posts etc. I had decided not to add confusion to this by posting on different forums as it has been enough to keep track here. Just an FYI but I chose to post here at CT because of the smaller almost family atmosphere feeling, and my thought that there would be less additional confusion from the typical additional off topic comments found on a higher hit count site.
> 
> I do agree that it may soon be time to put some of the questions I have to more of the masses since I am getting a better feel for just what I am getting into with Japanese knives, and stones in general. Still you guys have done a great job of educating, bringing me up to speed, and really calming any fears of screwing up.
> 
> It may not be obvious to those with time and experience in this, but this whole thing can be a bit overwhelming, and I can really feel for those with no free hand sharpening experience at all because I am sure it can be way too much for some, and could keep them from these superior knives. That of course is a shame because as I have found even the entry level introduction to this style product is a real pleasure to work with, and in my opinion well worth the time and effort (even if pretty much everyone in my family thinks I have lost my mind, and yes that includes those that received their first sharp knife for Christmass)
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> BDL
> 
> Sure does, and am waiting on your replies to all the new questions you have now raised


----------



## phaedrus

Even if the Suehiro Rika is more like a 3k it's probably still plenty for most purposes. It's pretty well known that I tend to take most good knives all the way up to 10k but it's not really necessary...I just like the edge that gives me. One of the guys I work with and occasionally sharpen for finally got on my last nerve; every time he asks me to sharpen his Shun I have to drop down to the coarsest stones I have. The guy must steel the thing in his sleep or something 'cause the edge is always trashed. Last night I was doing several knives so I figured I'd do his Shun, too. Well I literally ground away with a 500 Beston until I could hardly move my arms! And no joy- the Beston simply was no match for his mutilated Shun. I ended up just going with my DMT XC, and even that took some work. Anyway, I decided that until he learns to take better care of his stuff it's not worth wasting my Choceras on his knives, so I ended up finishing on my 2k Aotoshi followed by a strop on hard felt charged with 1/8 micron CBN. The edge is actually very good and cuts extremely well. Toothy!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


----------



## lennyd

Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.


----------



## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.


That's like asking if snowshoes would be a better purchase than a fly rod. The answer is, who the hell knows?/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif They're very different types of knives. If you're gonna cut up a chicken the honesuke would work a lot better. Good luck slicing up a 13 lb prime rib with it, though.


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.
> 
> 
> 
> That's like asking if snowshoes would be a better purchase than a fly rod. The answer is, who the hell knows?/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif They're very different types of knives. If you're gonna cut up a chicken the honesuke would work a lot better. Good luck slicing up a 13 lb prime rib with it, though.
Click to expand...

OMG, now why didn't think of that before /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif

Well since I had some split chicken breasts that needed to become cutlets yesterday I found that except possibly for any heavy work the petty was just fine. So I am going to stop the nonsense or madness and just get this all finished soon.

I suspect I will just decide between the honsuke and suki and move forward. A new thought I have is that I may want to wait until the budget will allow a higher end Suji as it seems this knife will deff get more use around here.

Thanks again to you all for your help, it has been very valuable even if a bit confusing at times!!


----------



## phaedrus

> OMG, now why didn't think of that before /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif
> 
> Well since I had some split chicken breasts that needed to become cutlets yesterday I found that except possibly for any heavy work the petty was just fine. So I am going to stop the nonsense or madness and just get this all finished soon.
> 
> I suspect I will just decide between the honsuke and suki and move forward. A new thought I have is that I may want to wait until the budget will allow a higher end Suji as it seems this knife will deff get more use around here.
> 
> Thanks again to you all for your help, it has been very valuable even if a bit confusing at times!!


There's no need to get too hung up on what knife you need for a given job. If you watch _Jacques Pépin_ cook you on TV you might notice that he does virtually everything with a paring knife or chef's knife. It's nice to have more patterns than that but the truth is I do 90% of my work with just a gyuto.


----------



## lennyd

> It's nice to have more patterns than that but the truth is I do 90% of my work with just a gyuto.


I have to think everyone has their favorites, and like yourself my two most used knives are the chefs and petty etc., but the specific use ones get a good work out as well like the bread knife, and even a not so great serrated utility etc.

The issue is what to do with this santoku that I have decided I will not really get any use of anymore.

It is a nice counter top conversation piece in its pretty box and all, but that has to be a poor use of a knife by anyone's standards. 

Much as I do not intentionally plan to become a collector I do expect to end up with 4 or 5 Japanese knife styles and hopefully not too many duplicates.


----------



## phaedrus

A santoku is still plenty useful.  I suspect you'll end up using it quite a bit.


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> A santoku is still plenty useful. I suspect you'll end up using it quite a bit.


I guess that is possible, and the previous one was good for chopping and dicing etc.

Is it possible to become bipolar from entering the world of Japanese knives 

Only because if I was to end up keeping the santoku it would equal going right back to where I started AKA full circle etc, and it could be a possible side effect of making the switch.

Also I have not returned anything yet as I have been really busy trying to make sense of all the rating systems on stones, wet paper, mesh, and micron size of the various abrasives to put this all into some kind of perspective.

Won't get too much into it here as I am feeling BDL may be correct in getting involved with one of the other more knife specific sites, but I have found there is actually more confusion, misunderstanding, and just plain misinformation on this in many different fields or industries from metal working, and auto refinishing to knife sharpening and pretty much everywhere in between.

Since I have had some experience in a couple of those areas (direct use, sales and more) it was more than interesting to see how people in different industries shared similar confusion, and even with some excellent cross reference chart information on the net it is still a big "unknown" in most cases due to there being so many similar appearing rating systems and numbers.

I know you guys believe just get it and go at it etc, but I am a bit more analytical than that, and am still attempting to find out if the 2000 silicone carbide paper I have used previous is actually 10.3, 8.5, or 1 micron so I can compare it to the rating system used on the Shapton GS so I can have some kind of baseline of understanding. That way I can compare my current results, and will be able to judge what level stones I would want based on where the current level falls in between the stone ratings.

Sounds simple enough, but since the Nikken wet paper I am using is not specifically marked with the rating system used, and their website does not confirm this either I am not sure if it is based on ansi/cami (normal US grades), fepa (p grades), JIS old or new (Japanese grade), and depending on which system is used the actual micron size of the abrasive can be quite different being from 1 to 10.3 micron.

Now before you all think I am wasting time etc just consider that if I am seeing the results of a 10.3 micron paper that the current 7 micron GS 2K stone would be an improvement in polish and may be a keeper, but if it is 8.5 micron then there really is no sense etc.

Plus when you throw in the fact that I have countless boxes of this stuff in 1000, 1200, 1500 and 2000 it now only shows a potential to hold off on a 1K stone as I could very well have that covered already (actually I believe that is correct), and really should invest in higher rated polishing stones instead.

I trust I will get to a point where I am confident in my decision, and hopefully that will be soon


----------



## phaedrus

Using wet paper might work well.  Certainly if you already have it you may as well try it.  There's no rush to buy a stone, really.  More research is a good thing.


----------



## boar_d_laze

My experience with sharpening on sand paper -- aka "scary sharp" -- is that it works well with carpentry tools but less well with long knives.  The papers load up quickly and need frequent rinsing, and it's not that easy to hold an angle on a wide sheet of paper.  Thinner strips -- 3M Contact for instance -- work better than full sheets.

The best thing about paper is that it allows to mess around with some extreme grits -- but that's not something you should do at least for now.

My advice is not to get too creative at first and just put together a decent kit based around regular bench stones or an Edge Pro.  Stones are making you crazy because you're overthinking and overcomplicating.  But anything will do that, as it's intrinsic to your nature and not to the stones'.

Get a Bester 1.2K and either a Suehiro Rika or Takenoko.  The Rika is very pleasant and easy; the Takenoko is both faster and finer.   When you can hold an angle well enough to get a good edge with either of those two, add a Beston 500.  The need will arrive at around the same time as the ability.  Flatten on drywall screen until you feel you can afford a DMT XXC.  Later, if you have a hankering for a really fine polish we can talk 8Ks and finer; but for now, not a worry.  Yes.  It's that simple.

BDL


----------



## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> My experience with sharpening on sand paper -- aka "scary sharp" -- is that it works well with carpentry tools but less well with long knives. The papers load up quickly and need frequent rinsing, and it's not that easy to hold an angle on a wide sheet of paper. Thinner strips -- 3M Contact for instance -- work better than full sheets.
> 
> The best thing about paper is that it allows to mess around with some extreme grits -- but that's not something you should do at least for now.
> 
> My advice is not to get too creative at first and just put together a decent kit based around regular bench stones or an Edge Pro. Stones are making you crazy because you're overthinking and overcomplicating. But anything will do that, as it's intrinsic to your nature and not to the stones'.
> 
> Get a Bester 1.2K and either a Suehiro Rika or Takenoko. The Rika is very pleasant and easy; the Takenoko is both faster and finer. When you can hold an angle well enough to get a good edge with either of those two, add a Beston 500. The need will arrive at around the same time as the ability. Flatten on drywall screen until you feel you can afford a DMT XXC. Later, if you have a hankering for a really fine polish we can talk 8Ks and finer; but for now, not a worry. Yes. It's that simple.
> 
> BDL


OMG, former chef, writer, product review master, knife expert/reviewer, and now even a spot on psycho analyst. I am serious, good job reading me my friend!

Scary sharp was interesting, and did give me a little reinforcement that I can actually keep these tools to help fill in any gaps that may be in the progression in stones I can currently afford.

Loading up is true, but with only the Washita and India to compare to it is not so bad etc. Is this more an issue with the coarser papers?

I use half sheets mostly as that is what I have the most of, and have to cut them to match the approx 2.5" x 9" hardwood blocks I glue them to. I do have one wider block (3" I think) that oddly I actually find more productive, but I can get three sheets on the thinner ones so they get most use.

Since these are still "new toys" I am thinking I am being a little more cautious etc and that may be causing a bit of unevenness at the end of strokes when making passes on the paper, but @ 4x magnification the bevel appears to be flat and mostly straight. I still have an old issue with keeping things perfect down the entire edge of the blade especially at the curve towards the point, but I have read this is something many have issue with, and from pics I had found of others on the net (no idea how they get such good pics all I get is odd blurrs lol) I may be being too critical, but like you already figured out that is just me 

Maybe figuring out how to get a good pic of the current edge would be a good idea as it would allow others to offer opinion on the results. This could allow to understand how the current equipment would compare to what else is out there without having the expense of trial and error.

Since your not the first to hit me with basically keeping it simple I think the point it starting to sink in. I hope this is as helpful as common sense makes it appear.

I am understanding your recommendations on stones (these seem to fit with Phaedrus choices as well!) and am going to try to just pick a deadline to make a final decision so that I stop continuing to add more to this at every turn, but it just seems that with every new bit of information comes a host of new issues. OK I am going to try to do it by the end of the day!!!!

I have also heeded your advice and joined Freds, posted a new thread there, and am sharing my OCD on this with everyone there now. Maybe with a little luck I will find what I am looking for around the same time the new stone(s) arrive and will be able to make sense of it all.

Going to go and crunch some numbers and get the stones ordered!

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif


----------



## lennyd

Want to update you all since I have finally made some headway with this all.

I found out the true rating system used on the paper I have been using which is great because I now have a baseline of what the results seen so far, and also am able to compare to the stone ratings as well.

It ends up that Nikken like many other quality Japanese manufacturers uses the JIS abrasive rating std. Though this puts my 2000 paper at a really close level to the 2K GS (and it is going back) which stinks it also is good because it does show me what a grit of this micron size can produce on an edge, and also that I have much of the mid range covered and initially only need to concentrate on the coarse and finer grades of stones.

I had joked at another site that all of this (everyone's help, hours searching the net and reading reviews etc) has allowed me to get right back to the start of needing my first wetstone  

Much as that is truly humorous (yea I laughed when writing it) I am at least now armed with enough comparable information to make a more informed but more importantly a comfortable decision on buying my first wetstone.

I am seriously leaning towards the finer end of the spectrum. I know not everyone believes this is a great place to start using a waterstone, and recommend a 800-1.2K stone for beginners, but I am gaining more confidence in my skill while also realizing that if I am getting a good result with the paper without gouging it to death (aka holding an angle at least fairly well, no?) then I should expect similar or even better experience with a fine stone.

Does this make sense to you guys?

I have also found myself looking at the Kitayama 8K as an alternate to the other two on my new short list (Arashiyama 6K and Suhiro Rika 5K), but could not find much as far as reviews, but it does look like a value priced stone similar to the 6K, but 2K finer.

I have boxed up the 2K for return so I dont change my mind on it again, and look forward to your final thoughts as to help me make a final choice from the short list.

Thanks again to all!!!!!!!!!


----------



## lennyd

Figure I owe you guys an update even though this sounds a bit funny, and may make me appear a bit off etc. Plus that is seeming to be tone of this thread anyhow.

I am not sure if it is due to a problem in translation of language or just absolute confusion between manufacturer, representative, and distributor but I have received completely opposite and contradictory information on the standards association used in determining the actual grit particle size used in the wet paper I have been using.

Since I was not able to get both parties to confirm their information was correct (one of them has to be lol)  I just figured to give up, and decided to just open up the 2K GS, get busy grinding some steel, and make my own decision on just where everything falls into place with regards to grit and how it polishes the edge.

Glad I did.

It worked out great, and seems to produce a grind somewhere between 1500 to 2000 grit paper (closer to the 1500 for sure) and as a serious plus was a lot easier to work with and removed material easier and faster.

I know the price levels are far apart (free v/s $56) but if the stone lasts long enough it should be a good long term purchase and value.

Will see where things progress from here, and I am planning on getting either the 6K or 8K stone soon, and before any coarser stones as the lower grit papers I have will cover the coarse levels.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Keep on keeping up with the updates.  Watching someone else climb the learning curve is fun, and the evolution in your thinking is impressive.

BDL


----------



## lennyd

boar_d_laze said:


> Keep on keeping up with the updates. Watching someone else climb the learning curve is fun, and the evolution in your thinking is impressive.
> 
> BDL


Good to see someone is reading this.

The experience has been kind of cool I guess even though frustrating at times due to all the unknowns and sometimes just lack of information and comparable experiences to make sense of all the nuances of such different knives than most are used to.

One part of the evolution I never expected was to actually think knives so much more expensive would seem a bargain compared to my old Henckels Pro-S(actual purchase price not list BS).

Just consider that before this I was having fits from not being able to get a decent edge that would last past a dinner prep, and now I am noticing the tiniest chip or imperfection on the edge. Thought I was losing it at first, but now that the edge doesn't fold over so easily making it nearly useless you do notice the little things more.

I am most likely going to order the Arashiyama 6K over the next couple days, and can not wait to see how this one performs, but am also intending to have a few glass plates made up for attaching the sand paper to as I think it will provide a much flatter surface than the hardwood, and will see how that works as well.

One thing I am starting to get really curious about is just how fast the coarser waterstones are because this 2K seems to be really fast and easy to work with, and I can not imagine needing more than a few passes on say a 700 stone to remove enough material to thin or reprofile an edge.

One last question for now, and that is if the process of using screen for flattening works easier with the non glass stones?


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow if this pans out like that I will be smiling more than that emoticon (which is also one of my favorites)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More truth than poetry, as a buddy of mine used to think. Everything you thought you knew about knives will be re-evaluated once you use a good J-knife.
Click to expand...

Brought this back up because it ended up being so true it should be part of some J Knife manufacturers advertising.

Dont have much of a lawn so I sold off all of my Henckels, and don't miss miss them


----------



## lennyd

The fedex truck dropped off a small package today, and I quickly put the Arashiyama 6K to work.

It did not seem as soft as I was expecting from so many reviews online, but was not nearly as hard as the glass stone either. It did seem to feel a little rougher than I had expected, was not as fast as I anticipated either, but the finish it produced was great and with a light hand was even finer. I was not able to get a whole lot of mud to work with and the little bit of slurry it did produce was mostly filled with steel so I am not 100% sure if I am missing something here, or if it really needs to soak more (I thought it was damn near splash and go, but seems to like much more water than the GS).

Tried going over it a second time with the sheetrock screen I was using to flatten and leave more of the slurry on the stone and that seemed to help, but I am not sure if this stone really needs to be worked to have some mud before sharpening or not.

Overall I am pretty darn happy with it, and am not sure if going any higher would be less for function and more for form or novelty. I still may look to try a 10K+ in the future just to see how it performs, and what difference it makes to using the knife etc.

For now this stone seems to be great for my needs, and really does produce a seriously sharp and polished edge. I still have to go back to a lower coarser stone on the Tojiro's to clean up a couple spots where the edge was not totally perfect as this stone would tire me out attempting to remove enough material to make a real change etc, and I found out real quick that when using a whetstone in the finer grits your really just polishing and any imperfections from previous level stones is magnified once you get a nice polish on the edge.

Ended up being a nice progression from the 2K GS and real pleasure to work with so I guess all my concerns and worries were not warranted and just due to not having any experience with the products. Both these stones are a lot nicer to work with than the oil stones I have used previously, and I do not have the issues of the sand paper where without being able to keep them totally flat (mostly due to not being able to spread the adhesive evenly) it was hard to hold or keep the edge to the paper just right some times.

Much as this stone worked great with the Fujiwara FKM it seems to be VG-10's best friend as the Tojiro DP's were really nice to work on this stone. Smooth as butter but also with a good feel and more feedback than anything else I own.

What was interesting was that initially I was really concerned with gouging the stone since so many had warned about this due to it not being as hard as any of the oil or glass stones I have used in the past etc, but unless your not paying attention this should not be a concern as the stone has a good amount of "give" while still being strong, and if you work with it and don't force it you can get a good "cut" into this stone where your pushing the water out of it even on the push stroke.

Overall very impressed!


----------



## chrislehrer

Been following along, had nothing to say before, but now I have a few things.

I've been almost exactly where you are now, back when I was in Kyoto 2 years ago. You already knew more about sharpening than I did, and my wife prevented me from going quite as nuts with different stones, but it's a similar phenomenon.

First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)

Second point: slow down. I know what you mean about suddenly being weirdly freaked out by small imperfections, where you used to be okay with mediocrity, but don't get ahead of yourself on things like polish. You're much better off having your gyuto with a perfect 2k edge than messing with it to produce a second-rate 6k polish.

Third point: using a petty. Put a somewhat tough edge on this and it will do yeoman service on poultry, including shearing bones. Those things are tough. You will probably also want to have some kind of chef de chef or something like that around, do to really brutal work like splitting lobsters and chopping off drumstick nubs, but I have found that the petty is the go-to knife for almost anything involving bones. The other option, which I use sometimes, is a smallish deba, but that's mostly because I have a very cheap one that I don't mind chipping sometimes.

Honest truth: these days I do everything differently anyway. I mostly rely on the petty plus the classic Japanese trio of yanagiba, usuba, and deba. For everyday touchups, I rely on a very hard natural asagi stone that won't dish and could be rated somewhere in the range of 12k-15k. But when I do a sharpening session, really going at it, I use Chocera 400 (if necessary), 800, 2000, then Arashiyama 6000, and SuperStone 10,000. I don't then use the asagi -- the technique is sufficiently different that it's irritating to switch, I find, and a 10k edge on the SuperStone will in time "haze" beautifully with the asagi.

Enjoy your toys!


----------



## lennyd

ChrisLehrer said:


> Been following along, had nothing to say before, but now I have a few things.
> 
> Cool to hear as I was thinking more than once I was talking to myself LMAO
> 
> I've been almost exactly where you are now, back when I was in Kyoto 2 years ago. You already knew more about sharpening than I did, and my wife prevented me from going quite as nuts with different stones, but it's a similar phenomenon.
> 
> Must have been an interesting place to live. I think the wife is now convinced I am nuts as she just learned what these two stones set me back, and being unemployed at the moment did not help any. So for now at least it is looking like I will have to compliment the 2K and 6K with what I have in available in the silicon carbide sand paper.
> 
> First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)
> 
> So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?
> 
> I cant wait to the next time I need to touch them up as I was looking forward to seeing how working the mud was.
> 
> Second point: slow down. I know what you mean about suddenly being weirdly freaked out by small imperfections, where you used to be okay with mediocrity, but don't get ahead of yourself on things like polish. You're much better off having your gyuto with a perfect 2k edge than messing with it to produce a second-rate 6k polish.
> 
> Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.
> 
> Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.
> 
> Third point: using a petty. Put a somewhat tough edge on this and it will do yeoman service on poultry, including shearing bones. Those things are tough. You will probably also want to have some kind of chef de chef or something like that around, do to really brutal work like splitting lobsters and chopping off drumstick nubs, but I have found that the petty is the go-to knife for almost anything involving bones. The other option, which I use sometimes, is a smallish deba, but that's mostly because I have a very cheap one that I don't mind chipping sometimes.
> 
> Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely
> 
> angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.
> 
> I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.
> 
> Honest truth: these days I do everything differently anyway. I mostly rely on the petty plus the classic Japanese trio of yanagiba, usuba, and deba. For everyday touchups, I rely on a very hard natural asagi stone that won't dish and could be rated somewhere in the range of 12k-15k. But when I do a sharpening session, really going at it, I use Chocera 400 (if necessary), 800, 2000, then Arashiyama 6000, and SuperStone 10,000. I don't then use the asagi -- the technique is sufficiently different that it's irritating to switch, I find, and a 10k edge on the SuperStone will in time "haze" beautifully with the asagi.
> 
> I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .
> 
> For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.
> 
> What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere
> 
> Enjoy your toys!
> 
> Doing my best to, and really doing just that so far.
> 
> PS thanks for your input!


----------



## lennyd

After thinking about all of what has been posted so far, and my initial experience with the Tojiro and Fujiwara I am starting to wonder just how different the other more expensive knives that were recommended earlier in the thread would compare to what I have already.

I mean like just how different would one expect a Misono, Mac, or Massamoto etc to be?

Both BDL and Phaedrus descriptions of the ones I have now seem to have been spot on (glad I tried the Fujiwara by the way as it was good to have something different from the Tojiro to compare with) and I can understand just how there is room for improvement on the Tojiro in the handle and even profile dept's but I can not see how the extra expense of the upgrades could be more bang for the buck overall etc.

I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering.

Maybe I still have a lot to learn, or maybe I am getting to the point where the values are going to be more based on form and the cool factor than actual performance and value.

Either way I am finding the need to compare one of the other higher end products as I believe hands on may be the only way to truly understand. And we have not even discussed carbons yet, OMG where does it end


----------



## chrisbelgium

_LennyD; "...I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering..."_

　

Hi Lenny, wellcome to the Fujiwara fanclub! Allow me to make this one and only contribution to your thread.

You really, really should read the following recent thread on knifeforums.com;

*"Unconditional Fujiwara Love" - thread started on 01-07-11. It's about both the FKM's and FKH's*... Here's the link;

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/891127/

I have both FKM's and Misono Moly. Both are excellent knives for their price. Misono is just a little heavier and even a little better finished than the Fujiwara's.

Still, I think VG10 is always a good investment, wether it's HattoriHD or FK, Gekko (best price/performance ever IMO!!!), Tamagahane (the brand) from Brieto, and my recent stunningly beautiful Saiun Kanetsugu 90mm parer from JCK. VG10 takes a lot more efford to sharpen rightly, you need to do at least 2 or 3 sharpeningsessions before they perform at their best, any VG10 knife. But, the result is always stunning... 

My next buy will be the 210mm Saiun _suji_. Perfect utility knife!


----------



## lennyd

ChrisBelgium said:


> _LennyD; "...I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering..."_
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Lenny, wellcome to the Fujiwara fanclub! Allow me to make this one and only contribution to your thread.
> 
> You really, really should read the following recent thread on knifeforums.com;
> 
> *"Unconditional Fujiwara Love" - thread started on 01-07-11. It's about both the FKM's and FKH's*... Here's the link;
> 
> http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/891127/
> 
> I have both FKM's and Misono Moly. Both are excellent knives for their price. Misono is just a little heavier and even a little better finished than the Fujiwara's.
> 
> Still, I think VG10 is always a good investment, wether it's HattoriHD or FK, Gekko (best price/performance ever IMO!!!), Tamagahane (the brand) from Brieto, and my recent stunningly beautiful Saiun Kanetsugu 90mm parer from JCK. VG10 takes a lot more efford to sharpen rightly, you need to do at least 2 or 3 sharpeningsessions before they perform at their best, any VG10 knife. But, the result is always stunning...
> 
> My next buy will be the 210mm Saiun _suji_. Perfect utility knife!


Before I reply to you I wanted to make a comment on how I am having trouble posting replies on my mobile phone. For some reason the site let me write up the whole thing (a real pita on that stupid little qwerty keyboard btw) but when I try to submit it the process just will not work and keeps reloading the same thing over and over etc. I dont have the problem at other sites so I figure it has something to do with whatever software the site is using and the symbian software in my phone, but I even tried opera mobile and that usually works with everything, but even that did not work. Oh well was just ten minutes so no biggie, but there is someone here to forward the issue to that would be great.

Now back to my newest obsession lol

I am happy to join the Fujiwara Fan Club as I seriously like this knife, and the price only makes the whole experience that much sweeter!!

But why only one post here? Hope it wasnt something I said 

Thanks for posting the link because even though I had seen that thread before it was dead at the time and I did not want to revive an old thread as my first post there. Seems it is alive again so I will chime in soon as I believe this is an excellent intro knife for J knives and I just cant really find any flaws in it. Well I guess if there was a way to keep the slices of potatoes from flying all over the board (and sometimes further lol) that could be an improvement, but I dont think I can fault the knife for that as much as praise it for it's agility that has helped my speed.

Also I saw that the thread there went to the carbon side (could that be akin to the dark side lol) and much as I keep hearing so many good things about carbon, and am one of those who's cleaning or maintenance habits are up to the product I really do not find myself drawn to the whole patina and oxidizing steel scenario. I have read all about the great edges people get from their carbon kitchen knives, and I even have a couple of carbon hunting type knives so I am aware of the edge that they can take and the strength etc, but somehow I am not sure it is my choice for food prep.

I had looked into that Saiun line and that looks to be one very nice knife. It does get into the price range of some other very nice ones as well, but will deff keep it in mind for when I start looking at adding to the family 

I have found myself attracted to the Hattori products and though I am not sure I am ready to decide between the HD or FH yet I know I did like the handles and blade design on the FH even before I had any real idea what I was looking for in a J knife (not sure I really know now for that matter lol, but it is seeming a bit easier than previously) but the price is a bit steep on both.

Now the Gekko line is also very pleasing to the eye, utilizes VG-10, looks like a well made product, and their mahogany handles look like they would just fit right into the hand as well, and as a plus the price point is looking great.

The Tamahagan also looks to be good product, but I think I may keep things a bit more simple by sticking with VG-10 at least for the next purchase, and then maybe expand a bit in the future (the carbo next types look very interesting dont they)

Your point on the VG-10 getting better with more use and sharpening is well taken, and I had not thought of that or noticed it until you mentioned it, but even only being sharpened a couple times I think this is what I am finding as well. Or it could be that I am improving, but thats an entirely different story lol.

I still am having trouble believing it can get better than I have found already, but have to admit I am looking forward to finding out. Since I have found I am missing not having a slicer and could also use a longer petty at times I am guessing these will most likely be my next two purchases.

Can not wait to start driving everyone nuts again comparing the pro's and con's of my long list to figure out which one to decide on. Woooo Hooooo


----------



## chrislehrer

Hey, Lenny,


LennyD said:


> First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)
> So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?
> 
> I don't like using anything coarse to raise mud -- it leaves scratches where I don't want them. What you're doing, technically, is using the GS as a _nagura_: it both slightly dresses the stone (trivial flattening) and raises mud. A GS is a perfectly good choice for this; lots of people use diamond plates, but they're pricey and you don't own one, so use the GS, which won't need flattening of its own.
> 
> Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.
> 
> Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.
> 
> ... [petty, honesuki, garasuke, etc.]
> 
> Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.
> 
> ....
> 
> I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.
> 
> ....
> I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .
> For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.
> 
> What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere
Click to expand...

Okay, some more points here.

1. Polish and edge

Go ahead and play with your 6k all you like. That's not quite what I meant. It is true that you can easily screw up a good 2k edge with a mediocre job on the polishing stone, but if that happens, you just go back to the 2k and do it over. No biggie, and screwing up sometimes does wonders for overconfidence.

Part of what I mean is that you don't entirely grasp -- based on what you write -- the difference that polish makes. Until you have that clear, both conceptually and in your knives, you don't know what to polish and how much. And you make several remarks here that suggest this is a genuine question for you.

All in all, the only real rule is not to waste effort (and stone). There is not the slightest point in polishing a Sabatier _au carbone_ to a 10k edge, because, lovely knives though they are, the steel simply won't take that kind of polish. In a very short time, all that work will be for naught. So you don't do it.

Now these moderately fancy Japanese knives you've got will all take good polish. 6k certainly. So why not always do it?

Some people feel that there are particular knives and cutting tasks that want a little toothiness. 2k is not "toothy" by any sane person's standards -- that's WAY more polished than any traditional Western kitchen knife -- but it's a relative measure.

I cannot speak from great personal experience, but I have a fair bit of knowledge here. In my estimation, you never need toothiness -- but there are knives that are used in such a way that you gain absolutely nothing from polish. The most glaring examples would be knives that carve and shear bone, such as the deba, honesuke, garasuke, and so forth. The contact with bone undoes your polishing work quickly, so why bother with it? You don't really gain anything from it.

Another significant point is that a 6k edge isn't sharper than a 2k edge, technically speaking. Sharpness is a measure of how cleanly two planes meet, and that's all. However, polishing can often clean up (or cover up) a certain amount of "slop." So if you've done a decent but not brilliant job on your 2k, and you do the same on your 6k, yes, the edge probably will be a hair sharper -- but really it could better be said that it is _less problematic_. From the practical standpoint, that's 6 of 1, half-a-dozen of the other, but there you go.

So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.

Conclusion: polish as high as you feel like polishing, but bear in mind that there is going to be a good deal of wasted effort involved, and that the longer you work an edge -- especially when it involves switching stones -- the greater the odds of screwing up and having to back up.

2. Buying More Knives

First of all, your wife will kill you. But that said....

You do what you want to do, and bear in mind that lots of folks I know get into having all kinds of different knives. I am increasingly of the opinion, however, that this is not a great idea. You should have a small set of excellent knives that you love and care for and learn to use very, very well. When you are faced with a cutting task, I think you should have no question in your mind about what's the right knife for the job. I don't think that special chicken-breaking knives make the slightest sense, for example, unless you are butchering poultry for a living.

Consider this. If you cut up a whole chicken, what bone do you actually need to cut through? Joints, check, but you shouldn't be shearing bone with the joints. Drumstick nubs in the French system, check. Ribcage and sternum in the American system, check, or the back of the shoulder joint in the French, check. The backbone, crosswise, for making pieces for soup stock, check. So at most with one chicken, you're looking at shearing about 6 or 7 times. You're going to buy a special knife for this? You gotta be crazy.

Me, I do the shearing with the back third of a mid-sized deba, which is heavy, tough, and also great for butchering fish, which is what it's made for. When you butcher fish, the vast majority of the work is done with the tip third of the knife, and the back third you back-bevel so it can be used for mincing and for heavy shearing like this. Every other cut I make with a petty, which I find small and deft enough to do the work, but is certainly tough as well. My one regret is that I don't have a really big thing, like a 12" chef de chef (or yo-deba), for shearing lobsters and stuff, but how often, honestly, do I shear a lobster? And there are ways and means of using a deba to do this admirably.

The point is, I'm basically doing everything with four knives. The result is that I get better and better at knowing what they like, how they work, and how to make them work for me. I advise you, rather than buying a bunch more knives, to learn the ones you have _cold_. For example, why did you not slice the cutlets with the gyuto?

Think about it this way. The gyuto _should_ do at least 75% of the cutting work in your kitchen, if it's being used thoroughly. It likes to cut everything. It slices, it dices, it chops, it pares! When faced with any cutting task, you should first consider doing it with the gyuto. If that's not the right choice, _why not_? And then you reach for a specialty knife to pick up on this weak spot in the gyuto's armory. If you use the classical Japanese system, there is no knife like this, which is one of those really irritating things. And this is one reason the gyuto has made such deep inroads into even rather traditional professional Japanese kitchens.

3. Carbon

You mentioned this in another post.

I love carbon, and all my J-knives are carbon. The deal is that, yes, it sharpens more easily. It needs the same care as other knives, but it needs it _right now_ -- you can't wait around. But that's just a matter of habits.

Then there's the question of patina and looks. If you like your blades shiny, go stainless -- carbon doesn't do that very well. The one exception is if you are using single-beveled Japanese knives, because then you can sharpen them every single day on a fine polishing stone, and yes, they will be shiny. I don't advise it, honestly, and I say that as someone who more or less does it.

4. Upgrades

Skip it. Wait and save your pennies. When you are honestly getting tired of what you've got, and probably have ground the gyuto until it's not the right shape any more because you've done it so often, you'll be ready to drop some serious change on something really fancy. I like Masamoto, myself, but lord knows they're expensive. But your wife may be more understanding if you wait and work at the knives you've got for a year or so. Just sayin'.


----------



## lennyd

ChrisLehrer said:


> Hey, Lenny,
> 
> 
> LennyD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)
> So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?
> 
> I don't like using anything coarse to raise mud -- it leaves scratches where I don't want them. What you're doing, technically, is using the GS as a _nagura_: it both slightly dresses the stone (trivial flattening) and raises mud. A GS is a perfectly good choice for this; lots of people use diamond plates, but they're pricey and you don't own one, so use the GS, which won't need flattening of its own.
> 
> Since I had a chance to work on the 6K again tonight this is all still very fresh in my mind. Since I have used the stone a couple times now I am seeing changes in it, but I also am still not getting mud to the amount you discuss but there was more. I guess of more importance to your thoughts on using the GS I am going to go ahead and do this next time I use it because I was able to notice that there were very tiny low spots all over the stone from the grit of what I used to flatten and raise the mud etc. If I looked closely I could see very tiny lines in the stone where there was no steel being removed from the edge. At this point I can not say if the stone not being really broken in or the coarseness of the grit I was using to flatten is to blame but I am getting more small scratches or roughness in the edge than I expected at 6K.
> 
> Still there was an obvious improvement to the sharpness, and now I can not feel any rough spots or the edge catching on paper cuts etc.
> 
> Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.
> 
> Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.
> 
> ... [petty, honesuki, garasuke, etc.]
> 
> Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.
> 
> ....
> 
> I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.
> 
> ....
> I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .
> For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.
> 
> What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay, some more points here.
> 
> 1. Polish and edge
> 
> Go ahead and play with your 6k all you like. That's not quite what I meant. It is true that you can easily screw up a good 2k edge with a mediocre job on the polishing stone, but if that happens, you just go back to the 2k and do it over. No biggie, and screwing up sometimes does wonders for overconfidence.
> 
> Part of what I mean is that you don't entirely grasp -- based on what you write -- the difference that polish makes. Until you have that clear, both conceptually and in your knives, you don't know what to polish and how much. And you make several remarks here that suggest this is a genuine question for you.
> 
> Absolutely, and you made a good read here. Still not sure I am still 100% but it is making more sense.
> 
> All in all, the only real rule is not to waste effort (and stone). There is not the slightest point in polishing a Sabatier _au carbone_ to a 10k edge, because, lovely knives though they are, the steel simply won't take that kind of polish. In a very short time, all that work will be for naught. So you don't do it.
> 
> Now these moderately fancy Japanese knives you've got will all take good polish. 6k certainly. So why not always do it?
> 
> Some people feel that there are particular knives and cutting tasks that want a little toothiness. 2k is not "toothy" by any sane person's standards -- that's WAY more polished than any traditional Western kitchen knife -- but it's a relative measure.
> 
> I cannot speak from great personal experience, but I have a fair bit of knowledge here. In my estimation, you never need toothiness -- but there are knives that are used in such a way that you gain absolutely nothing from polish. The most glaring examples would be knives that carve and shear bone, such as the deba, honesuke, garasuke, and so forth. The contact with bone undoes your polishing work quickly, so why bother with it? You don't really gain anything from it.
> 
> This I think I am getting, and not that I have not tried to sharpen different softer steels beyond their ability or what made sense etc, but that was not only how I started to learn this before I even knew I was learning it, but also how I got into this all in the first place. An example is the Mundials that I have kept for now that includes a 8" chefs that I did reprofile to a much less acute angle and just did a light touch up on 1000 paper after using the oil stones. I also have an unknown older Japanese clever that has little polish as well as these are the only knives I currently have with any heft for the few times I will face tasks that need them. This was more about angle initially than actually being based on polish, and it just worked out that way etc.
> 
> Another significant point is that a 6k edge isn't sharper than a 2k edge, technically speaking. Sharpness is a measure of how cleanly two planes meet, and that's all. However, polishing can often clean up (or cover up) a certain amount of "slop." So if you've done a decent but not brilliant job on your 2k, and you do the same on your 6k, yes, the edge probably will be a hair sharper -- but really it could better be said that it is _less problematic_. From the practical standpoint, that's 6 of 1, half-a-dozen of the other, but there you go.
> 
> So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.
> 
> Is there any advantage on soft items like a tomato from additional polish?
> 
> Conclusion: polish as high as you feel like polishing, but bear in mind that there is going to be a good deal of wasted effort involved, and that the longer you work an edge -- especially when it involves switching stones -- the greater the odds of screwing up and having to back up.
> 
> Believe me I understand that point lol. I have screwed up many an edge in the past while I thought I was improving it. I believe it was a part of the learning curve (basically taught myself how to sharpen on oil stones when I was a teenager, and never really got any advice that did not eventually end up being wrong) but it also makes things become cemented into your memory.I can remember when I was first tackeling burrs and how it drove me a bit nuts until by chance I found that a stropping like motion on the stone would help them go away. but still screwing up and having to go back is a great way to improve as the penalty and reward are very obvious and the short cuts limited if any. I still dont mind when this happens as I look at it as experience and another hurdle to overcome etc plus it helps to keep one humble
> 
> 2. Buying More Knives
> 
> First of all, your wife will kill you. But that said....
> 
> Poor thing, I believe she is thinking I have lost my mind already with all this "knife stuff". One good or positive thing though is that this is about the least expensive "hobby" I may have ever had. So maybe after the employment issue improves that will not be as much an issue. (well hopefully lol)
> 
> You do what you want to do, and bear in mind that lots of folks I know get into having all kinds of different knives. I am increasingly of the opinion, however, that this is not a great idea. You should have a small set of excellent knives that you love and care for and learn to use very, very well. When you are faced with a cutting task, I think you should have no question in your mind about what's the right knife for the job. I don't think that special chicken-breaking knives make the slightest sense, for example, unless you are butchering poultry for a living.
> 
> Consider this. If you cut up a whole chicken, what bone do you actually need to cut through? Joints, check, but you shouldn't be shearing bone with the joints. Drumstick nubs in the French system, check. Ribcage and sternum in the American system, check, or the back of the shoulder joint in the French, check. The backbone, crosswise, for making pieces for soup stock, check. So at most with one chicken, you're looking at shearing about 6 or 7 times. You're going to buy a special knife for this? You gotta be crazy.
> 
> Me, I do the shearing with the back third of a mid-sized deba, which is heavy, tough, and also great for butchering fish, which is what it's made for. When you butcher fish, the vast majority of the work is done with the tip third of the knife, and the back third you back-bevel so it can be used for mincing and for heavy shearing like this. Every other cut I make with a petty, which I find small and deft enough to do the work, but is certainly tough as well. My one regret is that I don't have a really big thing, like a 12" chef de chef (or yo-deba), for shearing lobsters and stuff, but how often, honestly, do I shear a lobster? And there are ways and means of using a deba to do this admirably.
> 
> Have to agree on not needing every type knife made, and I honestly do not want to become a collector of high priced limited production knives etc. Also I really do not split enough chickens (or some others like lobster etc) to need a special specific duty knife, and unless things get real ugly job wise and I somehow ended up making a career change and working in a commercial kitchen again (unlikely) I do not expect to need more than 4 or 5 knives anyhow. Only real reason I even say five is because I anticipate I will want to experiment with something new and a bit different in the future. Maybe a Wa handled single bevel type, but again that is the future and I would prefer to get something that I would use fairly often etc.
> 
> The point is, I'm basically doing everything with four knives. The result is that I get better and better at knowing what they like, how they work, and how to make them work for me. I advise you, rather than buying a bunch more knives, to learn the ones you have _cold_. For example, why did you not slice the cutlets with the gyuto?
> 
> Glad you ask as the gyuto was my first pick out of the block, but the wife picked the chicken up some place new and it was not the best selection and they were sort of small and the knife just was not working out like I planned. It could have been partly due to sharpness or my bevels as it was sticking slightly, but I did not really think it out much beyond the fact that the smaller knife seemed to work better on the smaller breasts (yes these were pretty crappy and had to trim them to death)Still the gyuto should have been fine so will see when I pick up some decent chickens later this week.
> 
> While on this I have noticed while going thru potatoes yesterday (before resharpening the gyuto)that sometimes there is a real issue with sticking. It did not always do it, and not near what my old Henckels was like but it still did. Could this have anything to do with my edge or bevel?
> 
> Think about it this way. The gyuto _should_ do at least 75% of the cutting work in your kitchen, if it's being used thoroughly. It likes to cut everything. It slices, it dices, it chops, it pares! When faced with any cutting task, you should first consider doing it with the gyuto. If that's not the right choice, _why not_? And then you reach for a specialty knife to pick up on this weak spot in the gyuto's armory. If you use the classical Japanese system, there is no knife like this, which is one of those really irritating things. And this is one reason the gyuto has made such deep inroads into even rather traditional professional Japanese kitchens.
> 
> Even though I had made good use of my previous henckels santoku due to it being the sharpest in the drawer then etc I had thought my inital decision on the Tojiro Santoku may not have been a good one based on what your saying (and I agree) but I am finding it is great for chopping and the edge being sharper than the previous and maybe even the Fujiwara (it is really close) combined with the toughness of the VG10 it just seems well suited for chopping. Still I am finding the Fujiwara is great for chopping as well, and it is lighter and a bit more comfortable so it is picking up on some of this work.
> 
> I mean so far in the short time I have these knives it has seen most of the usual foods and has sliced all of them effortlessly. So who knows it could be me
> 
> 3. Carbon
> 
> You mentioned this in another post.
> 
> I love carbon, and all my J-knives are carbon. The deal is that, yes, it sharpens more easily. It needs the same care as other knives, but it needs it _right now_ -- you can't wait around. But that's just a matter of habits.
> 
> Then there's the question of patina and looks. If you like your blades shiny, go stainless -- carbon doesn't do that very well. The one exception is if you are using single-beveled Japanese knives, because then you can sharpen them every single day on a fine polishing stone, and yes, they will be shiny. I don't advise it, honestly, and I say that as someone who more or less does it.
> 
> 4. Upgrades
> 
> Skip it. Wait and save your pennies. When you are honestly getting tired of what you've got, and probably have ground the gyuto until it's not the right shape any more because you've done it so often, you'll be ready to drop some serious change on something really fancy. I like Masamoto, myself, but lord knows they're expensive. But your wife may be more understanding if you wait and work at the knives you've got for a year or so. Just sayin'.
> 
> This all makes good sense as well. I mean what good is it to have 7 gyutos etc. My only potential issue is bang for the buck and why to get rid of a perfectly fine tool that you enjoy using. During this whole intro to J knives I have looked over so many different brands and types of knives it is overwhelming, but still have mental pictures of the ones I had most interest in even if I was not ready to spend on them right now.
> 
> So not to got back to the Fuji fan club, but even though I like the Mossomoto, Hattori, Carbo next (is it really all the plus of a carbon with nearly the ease of SS?) Gekko, Misono, and a few others what can one expect compared to the Fujiwara or Tojiro, and especially the home cook or student etc?
> 
> It is also interesting that "wives" are subject all their own. Oddly much as she may not seem too enthused on this whole thing she has already shown my new toys off more than once. I think I we may have even infected one neighbor with the J knife bug so as usual who really knows what they are really thinking (a woman in general lol).
> 
> Thanks again for all the great info!!
Click to expand...


----------



## lennyd

> So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.


Have been thinking about the above as well as many of your other related comments (did not want to continue the long quote as it was getting to be a monster lol) and I think it may be finally starting to sink in a bit /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I guess it is about time it did, but as usual just been over loading with large amounts of information at once etc.

Actually had an opportunity to try the tomato and it cut cleanly in half and right through the little made in the USA label from approx 8-9".

This was on the Fujiwara, and I did not try the Tojiro's as I only needed a few slices etc. Still this was good as I can rest a little that I got at least a decent edge on this one. If it can be improved only time will tell for now as I have no other way to determine etc, but I did need the boost for the ego or whatever.

But I also realized something else as well that was sort of a coincidence when attempting to take some pics of the edges to post as examples and review etc. The pics were horrible and were mostly glare, but one small section on the heel end of the edge on the petty came out clear and was enlightening, or at least very telling. It was a close up at full zoom and I could see that there was an odd look to the edge, and it was like it was concave and only the very edge and then again higher up on the blade at the top of the edge were being polished. Sort of like creating two polished lines with a small area that was unpolished separating them.

I was able to realize a few different things from this. First was that I need to be able to see better to really know what my edge is like lol, but the others are that VG-10 is going to need more attention or a more coarse initial stone to thin better or correctly, you can actually get a sharp edge without being 100% on the edge and some imperfections will not be as obvious as others, even when you question your abilities you may still be able to get a decent amount of sharpness even as a noob, things are not always as they appear, and just when you start to build some confidence you will be slapped down by the sharpening Gods and learn real fast that this is something that will keep one interested for a while as there is always room for improvement and plenty more to learn.

This has started me thinking that the coarse stone I was thinking could wait a while may have to come a little sooner than expected, and that I should likely be asking you guys what you would recommend etc. I was thinking something under 1K since I have the 2K already in the progression, and am maybe starting to feel OK with the idea of a coarse stone.

Is this all making sense, and if so what do you think?


----------



## phaedrus

I have several of these little magnifiers that I use when sharpening. Despite the claim they seem to be about 20X or so, give or take. The real genius of this 'scope is that it has LED lights that shine precisely on what you're looking that. They smoke a regular (and more expensive) loupe.


----------



## lennyd

Phaedrus said:


> I have several of these little magnifiers that I use when sharpening. Despite the claim they seem to be about 20X or so, give or take. The real genius of this 'scope is that it has LED lights that shine precisely on what you're looking that. They smoke a regular (and more expensive) loupe.


I had looked at those on eBay, but ended up getting a 30x loupe for around $2 delivered. It was really just that I was more familiar with the loupe from being around jewelers in the past, and could not find much info on the other style. They do look like a more modern tool though, and I am thinking I may try one since as much as the loupe is an improvement from small lens I have been using (I had an old small pair of binoculars that were broken and made use of the eye end lol) its field of view is very limited and really a strain on the eyes. Then again it could just be another chapter in cheap chinese crap I should have never bought.

So tell me more about the one you have. Can you view a reasonable length of the blade easily? If you move the blade further or closer to it can you still focus fairly well.

I ask because the answer with the 30x is no. Maybe it is just my eyes aging but then again I have always been seriously far sighted so who knows/

Either way it is really helpful to be able to see what your trying feel etc, and just knowing what your efforts are producing on a magnified level would seem to be able to help avoid any problem areas in your next session.


----------



## lennyd

I wanted to touch on this again in case anyone does read this far through the thread in the future as I do understand your point better now after having some time with the Tojiro's. Your quote below was not as clear originally.

It seems IMHO that the VG10 really takes a while to wear the edge compared to the Moly steel used in the Fujiwara. Now since I have become very comfortable with the Fujiwara 240mm gyuto it is really doing much of the work I do (and does it very well I will add) and the Tojiro Santoku is seeing almost all its duty on chopping so it is hitting the board constantly when it is used. The thing is that the edge holds up beautifully and except for a couple times it saw some torque from a bit of a twisting action it has not chipped otherwise.

The Fujiwara is very sharp now from improvements in my ability to sharpen, and is a pleasure etc, but there is a real difference with the vg10, and though the Fujiwara is a bit easier to sharpen (it does sharpen very nicely and easily) the vg10 though a bit tougher to work with seems to get sharper and stay that way a bit longer.

I think I had stated how much I like this steel earlier, but I am finding the more I work with it the more I like it.

It is seeming that the next logical step for me is going to be some combination of a even better vg10 than the Tojiro combined with an improvement in fit, form, function (more like how the Fujiwara ergo's compare to the Tojiro etc).

I have decided that the style will be either a longer petty or suji as these are the two that I have found I would make most use of or be most practical, and that I will hold off on upgrading the gyuto for the future.

Have also decided that I want to try one of the better vg10 ones before one of the more expensive steels (semi carbon/ss etc) so I can get a feel for the true potential of vg10.

Planning on starting a new thread to compare the knives I am thinking about for comparing once I am closer to buying (Hattori HD & FH. Gekko, ?).

I have been able to notice the different feel of the san mai blade on the Tojiro, but so far am not sure if it is as much an issue as just different. Maybe it is because the Tojiro is only wrapped in one layer, but I expect time time will tell more etc.

Will be just enjoying the ones I have already for a bit longer before getting anything new, but have to admit I am more than a little curious and excited to see just how much an improvement the higher end products are in comparison as I am still a bit amazed at the improvements I have found in the Tojiro and Fujiwara.


Phaedrus said:


> Not a bad idea at all. The Tojiros are great values and instead of "outgrowing" them, as your sharpening skills increase you will grow_ into_ them! The knife has a lot of capability waiting to be unlocked with a little thinning and a good shapening. I still carry three of 'em in my work case and don't foresee getting rid of them in the near future. The Tojiri is san-mai/clad, if that matters (it likely won't). Most of the other "value" J-knives have similar potential, although the FKM won't have quite the "legs" as the Tojo.


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## phaedrus

Funny...since I last posted the Tojiro count in my work kit has risen to five!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif I may remove a couple but I want to try them out in a pro kitchen. I'm glad to see your choices are working out well for you.


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## phaedrus

LennyD said:


> Phaedrus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have several of these little magnifiers that I use when sharpening. Despite the claim they seem to be about 20X or so, give or take. The real genius of this 'scope is that it has LED lights that shine precisely on what you're looking that. They smoke a regular (and more expensive) loupe.
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me more about the one you have. Can you view a reasonable length of the blade easily? If you move the blade further or closer to it can you still focus fairly well.
Click to expand...

Sorry Lenny, I seem to have completely missed this post. Well, the "field of view" is not large but the focal length doesn't seem critical. The huge advantage of this one over the Belomo loupe (that cost me 8X as much) is the clarity and the light. The light makes all the difference. I bought three of them, and if one craps out I'll buy three more just in case. There are times I wake up in a cold sweat at the thought of not having them./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## lennyd

It sounds to have a better design for checking an edge (a more usable focal length) than a loupe as these work great on jewelry but are tough when moving down the length of the edge of a knife.

May have to get around to getting one as it has been helpful to actually see what is happening on a magnified scale.


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## racineboxer

Lenny are you still around?!?!    

I really enjoy this thread.  It's similar to a lot of my questions, especially on the differences between some of these value or mid-priced J-knives.

After another month do you have any more opinions on your Fujiwara vs. the Tojiro?

I am looking at adding a 150mm petty and it's like I keep looking at the Fujiwara, the Tojiro and the Hattori HD as my 3 favorites at 3 different price points.  I noticed that you were also thinking of getting another, longer, petty and if you had made a decision yet.  Do you think the Tojiro is worth the money over the Fujiwara?


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## butzy

I'm not Lenny, but I have recently bought a Fujiwara petty .....

I bought the FKH 150 mm, the carbon steel one.

It is reactive as is usual for carbon steel, but I don't find it a problem. It just discolours...

It is not as stinky as I was scared of, neither does it discolour the food too much.

I find it easy to sharpen.

I'm definitely not an expert on knives (and I have no Tojiro to compare it with) but I find it quite a handy little knife (at a decent price)

Hope this helps


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## lennyd

racineboxer said:


> Lenny are you still around?!?!
> 
> I really enjoy this thread. It's similar to a lot of my questions, especially on the differences between some of these value or mid-priced J-knives.
> 
> After another month do you have any more opinions on your Fujiwara vs. the Tojiro?
> 
> I am looking at adding a 150mm petty and it's like I keep looking at the Fujiwara, the Tojiro and the Hattori HD as my 3 favorites at 3 different price points. I noticed that you were also thinking of getting another, longer, petty and if you had made a decision yet. Do you think the Tojiro is worth the money over the Fujiwara?


Yes still around, but was away for a bit of R&R in an attempt to maintain sanity and couldn't post on my phone.

Glad the thread was helpful, and I couldn't find much comparison info on the lower end of the spectrum either and that's how it got started etc.

Got to admit I am really liking the Fujiwara, and it has helped to improve my skills and speed, but to be honest I have also become a real fan of VG10 (both in the Tojiro, and as a blade material in general) as well.

If I have not said it already I think that both BDL and Phedrus were spot on in their initial opinions posted as the Fujiwara has an excellent feel, and the Tojiro will take an edge that really lasts. The comments on chipping issues, and especially on plastic boards were also accurate, and you quickly learn if you have any twisting or torque in your technique, but on the positive side these are easy to work on or correct, will help improve your skill and cause you to get more time on the stones correcting the small chips etc. To be fair I had taken the Tojiro's to their limit in acute angles and since reducing it some so that there was more steel behind the edge the chipping is greatly reduced.

With all of that said I expect to be keeping the Fujiwara for a good while, and my thoughts on adding another brand for my next purchase is not as much a testimonial against them as much as part of my wanting to have more to compare etc. I believe that at some point I will trade up on the gyuto for a higher end product, but for now the Fujiwara is working just fine and my budget is not where I want it to be for when that happens.

Similar to yourself I am considering Hattori HD and FH series, plus others like the Gekko, Carbo Next, and even a Fujiwara FKH carbon or something a bit more interesting in the Tenmi Jyuraku in Aogami Super http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html though I am not sure I want to be bothered with the care of carbon. I also thought the Shiki brand was very interesting and like the burled wood handles http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SHIKIDamascusSeries.html

but they are on the higher end of the price scale, and like so many others there is limited info avail.

Maybe in the near future I will start another thread comparing the possible future purchase items, but will most likely wait until I am closer to pulling the trigger etc

There is nothing wrong with the Tojiro petty either (well maybe other than there a little more pricey than when I purchased mine lol) and depending on what you have now it could be a nice addition. The one I have gets sharper than or as sharp as anything else I have, the handle works well for me (it is not as large as the one many complain about on the larger knives) just fine, and like I said before it holds it's edge very well.

I guess I am sort of repeating parts of what phedrus was saying much earlier on in the thread about continuing to use the Tojiro due to it's edge retention and ability to get sharp easily etc, but it is the steel used in the blade that has me so sold on VG10 so this does make good sense as well.

Unfortunately since the economy is still kicking my butt I have not made the purchase yet, and can not offer any help in additional comparisons though I did kind of expect to have done so by now. Maybe you can pick of the HD and help me make up my mind lol, but seriously if funds do allow I am expecting to be around the HD price point and to go with one of the vg10 steels, but if it does not work out that way I am thinking one of the less expensive carbons would also be a good choice for me as it will allow to compare another steel with a similar price point as my current knives.

I guess the fact that this next purchase is less about need (remember I already have the 120mm Tojiro) and more about experiment or comparison to help with future decisions on upgrading the gyuto is keeping it on the back burner until that budget improves 

Then again just the idea that these other brands are supposed to be so superior to what is currently so impressive in comparison to my previous knives is keeping the pressure on to make my next move.


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## lennyd

butzy said:


> I'm not Lenny, but I have recently bought a Fujiwara petty .....
> 
> I bought the FKH 150 mm, the carbon steel one.
> 
> It is reactive as is usual for carbon steel, but I don't find it a problem. It just discolours...
> 
> It is not as stinky as I was scared of, neither does it discolour the food too much.
> 
> I find it easy to sharpen.
> 
> I'm definitely not an expert on knives (and I have no Tojiro to compare it with) but I find it quite a handy little knife (at a decent price)
> 
> Hope this helps


Butzy can you make any comparisons, or get into more detail on how maint has differed from other stain resistant steels you have used?

A lot of the input I can find on the net is from people who are really sold on carbon and most of the things that concern me (and very likely others) are just accepted by them and not really discussed as thoroughly as would be helpful.

I guess things like I have seen posted on other sites about transferring taste or color to foods that are cut or developing a patina and the many things related to the natural oxidizing process, or even how time between use can effect things etc can be concerning so lets hear your thoughts!


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## butzy

Lemme give it a try.....

I have a couple of stainless steel knives, mostly "no name" brands, a Victorinox  and a Global gs2.

These ones I just use (and sometimes abuse). The steel is as shiny as it was when I bought them although a bit scratched as I someone convinced me they could sharpen them properly....

I have 2 carbon steel knives, a very old Henckels and the new Fujiwara FKH petty

Both of them are very easy to sharpen, easier than the stainless steel.

The Henckels is very dark in colour now. Not shiny at all. I played around with this one before deciding on the Fuji. The Henckels used to smell when you would cut onions, tomatoes etc. Esp in the first couple of cuts. This has gone since I've started using it a bit more.

It used to look like it has all colours and shades of grey and blueish on the blade. One time I decided to dunk it into a glass of coke as I read somewhere that that gives a nice patina. It came out all grey. It looks nice that way. It's also easy for sharpening. You don't need to use the magic marker trick as you can easily see the shine edge appearing when you are sharpening.

The Fuji arrived nice and shiny. It didn't stink or discolour food even with the first cuts. Maybe I've just been lucky as a lot of people complain about it.

I actually found it quite fascinating to see the knife discolour. Even one single cut leaves "stains" on the blade. I don't find that a problem and if/when I get fed up with it I'll just dunk it in some coke!

I haven't used it extensively yet, but just to give you an idea: I use it on everything I cut whether acidic or not. After finishing cutting I rinse the knife under running water and the dry thoroughly. Sometimes I use a cloth to keep the knife dry in between cutting sections. As said, it's reactive, but I haven't seen any rust or anything forming.

I don't find it a problem to work with, but if you like shiny looking knives you are not going to like it.

The other knife I have is the CarboNext.

This one is also easy to sharpen, I would say as easy or almost as easy as the Fuji. It doesn't react with food nearly as much as the Fuji, but slightly more than stainless. I can see some discolouring on the blade if you look very carefully.

I sort of maintain my knives more or less the same way, whether stainless or carbon. I clean and dry the knives quite often, but sometimes I get called away while cutting something and the knife just lies for a while. This definitely shows on the carbon (the steel discolours wherever in contact withe the food). If that happens I check the knife and see if it is just patina or rust. The latter has seldom happened, but if it does, I scour it and clean and dry thoroughly. If patina, I normally just let it be. The knife can do it's own thing, I can always sort it later.

If you are interested in carbon, I would advise going the same way as I did. Buy a "cheapish" but good quality carbon steel knife and start using it.

If I decide to buy another knife, carbon would definitely be an option.

Having said that, the carbonext seems to combine the best of both worlds...

Hope the above makes any sense. I'm by no way a good reviewer and I haven't used that many different knives, It's just my experience/opinion


----------



## racineboxer

LennyD said:


> Yes still around, but was away for a bit of R&R in an attempt to maintain sanity and couldn't post on my phone.
> 
> Glad the thread was helpful, and I couldn't find much comparison info on the lower end of the spectrum either and that's how it got started etc.
> 
> Got to admit I am really liking the Fujiwara, and it has helped to improve my skills and speed, but to be honest I have also become a real fan of VG10 (both in the Tojiro, and as a blade material in general) as well.
> 
> If I have not said it already I think that both BDL and Phedrus were spot on in their initial opinions posted as the Fujiwara has an excellent feel, and the Tojiro will take an edge that really lasts. The comments on chipping issues, and especially on plastic boards were also accurate, and you quickly learn if you have any twisting or torque in your technique, but on the positive side these are easy to work on or correct, will help improve your skill and cause you to get more time on the stones correcting the small chips etc. To be fair I had taken the Tojiro's to their limit in acute angles and since reducing it some so that there was more steel behind the edge the chipping is greatly reduced.
> 
> With all of that said I expect to be keeping the Fujiwara for a good while, and my thoughts on adding another brand for my next purchase is not as much a testimonial against them as much as part of my wanting to have more to compare etc. I believe that at some point I will trade up on the gyuto for a higher end product, but for now the Fujiwara is working just fine and my budget is not where I want it to be for when that happens.
> 
> Similar to yourself I am considering Hattori HD and FH series, plus others like the Gekko, Carbo Next, and even a Fujiwara FKH carbon or something a bit more interesting in the Tenmi Jyuraku in Aogami Super http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html though I am not sure I want to be bothered with the care of carbon. I also thought the Shiki brand was very interesting and like the burled wood handles http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SHIKIDamascusSeries.html
> 
> but they are on the higher end of the price scale, and like so many others there is limited info avail.
> 
> Maybe in the near future I will start another thread comparing the possible future purchase items, but will most likely wait until I am closer to pulling the trigger etc
> 
> There is nothing wrong with the Tojiro petty either (well maybe other than there a little more pricey than when I purchased mine lol) and depending on what you have now it could be a nice addition. The one I have gets sharper than or as sharp as anything else I have, the handle works well for me (it is not as large as the one many complain about on the larger knives) just fine, and like I said before it holds it's edge very well.
> 
> I guess I am sort of repeating parts of what phedrus was saying much earlier on in the thread about continuing to use the Tojiro due to it's edge retention and ability to get sharp easily etc, but it is the steel used in the blade that has me so sold on VG10 so this does make good sense as well.
> 
> Unfortunately since the economy is still kicking my butt I have not made the purchase yet, and can not offer any help in additional comparisons though I did kind of expect to have done so by now. Maybe you can pick of the HD and help me make up my mind lol, but seriously if funds do allow I am expecting to be around the HD price point and to go with one of the vg10 steels, but if it does not work out that way I am thinking one of the less expensive carbons would also be a good choice for me as it will allow to compare another steel with a similar price point as my current knives.
> 
> I guess the fact that this next purchase is less about need (remember I already have the 120mm Tojiro) and more about experiment or comparison to help with future decisions on upgrading the gyuto is keeping it on the back burner until that budget improves
> 
> Then again just the idea that these other brands are supposed to be so superior to what is currently so impressive in comparison to my previous knives is keeping the pressure on to make my next move.


I have a Tojiro DP Damascus 6" utility on the way. I didn't order it, someone bought it for me. Aesthetics are pretty important to me and I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the big logo/writing on the picture I see from CNM. I know it's cheesy but I'd rather just have the japenese symbols. We'll see how I like it and if I don't then I'll probably send it back and get the Hattori. Or maybe even a Hiromoto G3 or Masamoto VG.


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## lennyd

racineboxer said:


> I have a Tojiro DP Damascus 6" utility on the way. I didn't order it, someone bought it for me. Aesthetics are pretty important to me and I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the big logo/writing on the picture I see from CNM. I know it's cheesy but I'd rather just have the japenese symbols. We'll see how I like it and if I don't then I'll probably send it back and get the Hattori. Or maybe even a Hiromoto G3 or Masamoto VG.


Thats funny because I felt the same way initially with CNM's pic on their site, but though not the most pleasing logo to the eye it was not as bad in person, and the DP I purchased (from CKTG) did have the character logo on the opposite side as well.

It sounds like you really are preferring one of the higher end/cost knives, and if the cost is not a concern that may be a better way to go. Unless your like me and need to learn first hand and therefore would not rest without testing the lower cost knife first etc then maybe just go for one of the others. Then again on the other hand I just realized that for me at least now I going to have to experiment with the higher end anyhow so hopefully your different and can just be happy with either you decide 

On a side note the Massomoto VG was on my short list for a time, but something about the idea of paying more for VG5 than what I did for VG10 did not seem right, and once at that price level there are so many choices etc. I am wondering if BDL will have input on this as he seems to have a great deal of knowledge on the VG series, and actually hope so as it is a bit confusing as well.

Please do post a follow up on your thoughts on the Tojiro Damascus.


----------



## lennyd

butzy said:


> Lemme give it a try.....
> 
> I have a couple of stainless steel knives, mostly "no name" brands, a Victorinox and a Global gs2.
> 
> These ones I just use (and sometimes abuse). The steel is as shiny as it was when I bought them although a bit scratched as I someone convinced me they could sharpen them properly....
> 
> I have 2 carbon steel knives, a very old Henckels and the new Fujiwara FKH petty
> 
> Both of them are very easy to sharpen, easier than the stainless steel.
> 
> The Henckels is very dark in colour now. Not shiny at all. I played around with this one before deciding on the Fuji. The Henckels used to smell when you would cut onions, tomatoes etc. Esp in the first couple of cuts. This has gone since I've started using it a bit more.
> 
> It used to look like it has all colours and shades of grey and blueish on the blade. One time I decided to dunk it into a glass of coke as I read somewhere that that gives a nice patina. It came out all grey. It looks nice that way. It's also easy for sharpening. You don't need to use the magic marker trick as you can easily see the shine edge appearing when you are sharpening.
> 
> The Fuji arrived nice and shiny. It didn't stink or discolour food even with the first cuts. Maybe I've just been lucky as a lot of people complain about it.
> 
> I actually found it quite fascinating to see the knife discolour. Even one single cut leaves "stains" on the blade. I don't find that a problem and if/when I get fed up with it I'll just dunk it in some coke!
> 
> I haven't used it extensively yet, but just to give you an idea: I use it on everything I cut whether acidic or not. After finishing cutting I rinse the knife under running water and the dry thoroughly. Sometimes I use a cloth to keep the knife dry in between cutting sections. As said, it's reactive, but I haven't seen any rust or anything forming.
> 
> I don't find it a problem to work with, but if you like shiny looking knives you are not going to like it.
> 
> The other knife I have is the CarboNext.
> 
> This one is also easy to sharpen, I would say as easy or almost as easy as the Fuji. It doesn't react with food nearly as much as the Fuji, but slightly more than stainless. I can see some discolouring on the blade if you look very carefully.
> 
> I sort of maintain my knives more or less the same way, whether stainless or carbon. I clean and dry the knives quite often, but sometimes I get called away while cutting something and the knife just lies for a while. This definitely shows on the carbon (the steel discolours wherever in contact withe the food). If that happens I check the knife and see if it is just patina or rust. The latter has seldom happened, but if it does, I scour it and clean and dry thoroughly. If patina, I normally just let it be. The knife can do it's own thing, I can always sort it later.
> 
> If you are interested in carbon, I would advise going the same way as I did. Buy a "cheapish" but good quality carbon steel knife and start using it.
> 
> If I decide to buy another knife, carbon would definitely be an option.
> 
> Having said that, the carbonext seems to combine the best of both worlds...
> 
> Hope the above makes any sense. I'm by no way a good reviewer and I haven't used that many different knives, It's just my experience/opinion


Thanks for the info etc, and though most of us are not pro reviewers I think that is actually a big help as well due to how very differently a newbie or noob would experience and look at the comparison than someone with much more experience.

Even though the Carbo Next would seem to make more sense for my use I still find that I am being called by my curiosity towards maybe trying a carbon.

Since I do take the time to clean up often etc I do not think that part would be a problem, but I am not sure I would be too excited about the whole patina or corrosion thing.

I think I will most likely try one of the higher end vg10 first, and see how that compares and if it is worth the additional cost, and then maybe look at the carbon or semi stainless/carbon knives later.

Have to admit though that I am still a bit excited about the idea that the ones I have now are entry level, and there is so much more out there. I have been trying not to think about it all that much though as this really can be like an addiction


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## lennyd




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