# Heres my 2 cents



## hashbrownclown (Dec 2, 2015)

Why are you going to go to a culinary school to learn how to cook? Granted, Culinary schools do give you a slight edge (very slight) The only reason why I say that is there are a few minor certifications that you get with the criculum. They are easliy attainable on your own.  On the job experience is the only way to make it in the restaurant world. If you just want to be a line cook thats fine. If you want to have your own place here is the best adivse that I can offer you both old and young! GET A BA DEGREE OR HIGHER IN BUSINESS AND MAJOR IN MARKETING!  

The mastery of kitchen work does not make a successfull restaurant. It is the numbers, location, and marketing that make the restaurant go! Now, you do have to use common knowledge in running a kitchen. This is where experience comes into play, use someone elses resources and endeavours (dreams) to fuel your passion. in other words gain as much experience as you can before you swim on your own.

In my own thoughts, Culinary Arts Schools are for general people who want to go play home economics for a few hours a day! Dont waste your time and hard earned money!


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## freddy12712 (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree. Im 22, At first i wanted to go to culinary school because i wanted to have the most knowledge to launch into my career with. I figured that going to culinary school would show that im more passionate than just any line cook. But as i did more research into it i figured out that its kind of a jip. I talked to chefs where i work and none of them went to culinary school. My sous chef, who is a 5 star class chef, never went. He told me all the chefs he knew that went ended up regretting it.

    Its not going to give you a higher pay when you go to get a job. I know a girl that went to CIA in New York, which is probably the most "prestigious" culinary school in America. Tuition is about 70,000 if i remember correctly. After she graduated she got a job starting out making 12 an hour, after a few years she got bumped up to 16 an hour. Thats pretty standard pay. Ive only been a cook for about 7 months now, working at a college cafeteria , and now i just got a job at the Ritz Carlton making 13 an hour, no culinary school. And ive done events in Miami, where i made almost 20 an hour just to do plating on the day of the event, and 16 an hour just to cut shrimp the two prep days before.

I just dont see how its worth it. These schools are not cheap. Le cordon bleu miami is 19,000 for tuition, and lincoln in palm beach is 40,000 tuition. And for what? you get no degree and you get payed the exact same amount as someone without any culinary school. The only real benefit to culinary school is you get alot of connections and get to network with a lot of like minded people around the same age as you.

I plan on being a restaurateur in the future, which is why i decided to get a BA in Hospitality Management. They teach you the business side of things and you also get some cooking classes. Get yourself a real degree, not a certification.


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## hairycorvair (Dec 17, 2015)

I just joined this forum and I'm sad to see trolls even on a culinary forum. Thanks for your two cents!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Hospitality Management. Talk about a waste of money! Do a survey and I'll bet you a dinner that maybe 1 restaurateur out of 100  has a B in Hospitality Manage.

The best Culinary school I know of is totally free to people in the community.


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## freddy12712 (Jun 1, 2015)

The degree doesnt make you succesful, its how you apply it. But youre always at an advantage over other people when you have an education and a degree

and please do feel free to tell me where this culinary school is.


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

freddy12712 said:


> The degree doesnt make you succesful, its how you apply it. But youre always at an advantage over other people when you have an education and a degree
> 
> and please do feel free to tell me where this culinary school is.


School DOES give an advantage that experience doesn't provide.

There are every day examples that I can site that provide evidence of this.

Math

Writing skills

Spelling

communication skills

Sounds silly right?

Okay, so you might say to yourself, but Chef these are things taught in high school and before.

To this I'll then answer with a question.

Then how come in my career, I have had so many employees and co-workers who can't measure, (don't how many ounces in a cup/quart/gallon).

Or can't read a recipe and double it, or worse yet, can't even write a note to the Chef without several misspelled words, or no punctuation.

*Culinary school is so much more then learning to cook.* Paying attention in high school to the basics continues on in higher learning.

How many of you who have taken courses in college have witnessed what I've just described?

We have all been there with co-workers, peers, even management, who lack basic skills in math, reading, and writing.

So when someone says to me that they have experience over school, I can see what they have learned and what they lack by watching and listening.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

You are right on Chefross.  Many companies have a "glass ceiling" for those without a BS.  If trying to get a loan or investors to start a business a BS with business and marketing goes a long way.


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## halb (May 25, 2015)

Some of the dumbest people I know have college degrees. I just had to explain to one yesterday what half and half was. Can't even make change.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I'm just referring to hashbrownclown and freddy12712.

1st. HBC,   the degree in Business or Marketing

2nd. Fred   the degree in Hotel management.

Culinary School is basically a technical step into the profession.

There is a certain mindset that an Entrepreneur has. It certainly does not require any type of degree. Sure the Sheepskin may look good on the wall in your office, but a lot of the times it has nothing to do what the entrepreneur does or has.  I believe it comes from vision, passion and most of all, risk taking. Look around at some of the successful entrepreneurs who don't have a degree and may have dropped out of regular school to follow their vision. Net worths of People like Richard Branson-5+ Billion, Steve Jobs-15 Billion, Larry Ellison-50-60 Billion, Mike Dell-20+ Billion, 

Rachael Ray-60+Million, Wendy's Dave T-99 Million. None of these people have degrees in anything.

I know this sounds contradictory but I also think higher education is a great place to figure out what your vision and passions might be if you don't have one..

My2 cents

BTW  Ownership and entrepreneurship I think go hand in hand. Ownership in this country is very attainable, you grow into an entrepreneur. That ownership does not have to be successful for you to move on. Most successful people have failures. The failures are usually your education.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

"Don't fight play nice".

We should be here to learn and discuss.  We should be a good example for students and those just starting out.  Panini please stick with us I enjoy reading your posts.

Freddy2712, at twenty dollars and hour your still making less than fifty thousand a year.  One national chain is offering graduates with a B.S. forty eight  to fifty five thousand to train.  After six months they offer sixty five and above.  That is for a forty hour week.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

freddy12712 said:


> The degree doesn't make you succesful, its how you apply it. But youre always at an advantage over other people when you have an education and a degree
> 
> and please do feel free to tell me where this culinary school is.


Hi Freddy......

I'm a big believer in "acid tests" and I have two such tests for you to consider:

The first is with entrepreneurs. Here, the test is very simple, a person with a fresh degree is sitting across from a bank manager or someone who will loan you money to start your first venture. IMHO, and in almost everyone who has contributed to this thread, the bank manager will not be impressed with the degree unless it is backed up with some kind of _related work experience. _See, a car is no good without gasoline, and a degree is no good without "skin in the game".

The second is a culinary school graduate applying for a cooking job. The chef, or H.R. officer will almost always be non-plussed with culinary school degrees, and will rely on the first 4 hours of you being in the kitchen to decide if you stay or not.

In short, degrees only tell people that you've been to school. It's what you do with your life that decides if you will be successful.

(p.s. I used the spell checker on my post, but it started on your quote first and picked up several mistakes. I started to correct them, but then figured w.t.f. it's your post, not mine.......,.)


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

> (p.s. I used the spell checker on my post, but it started on your quote first and picked up several mistakes. I started to correct them, but then figured w.t.f. it's your post, not mine.......,.)


I was referencing chefross's comments about people not having spelling or math skills. I was being facetious.

There are many ways to enter fields of one's choice. Some go the education route, others the "experience is everything" route. You simply cannot dismiss one path outright over the other. Everybody has an opinion based on life choices, and everybody is different. Every situation is different.

I've encountered "dumb" and "smart" from both degreed and non-degreed people alike. Some people feel entitled because they have a degree, but don't have the smarts or experience to back it up. I've also found experienced, pushy, defensive people without degrees unable to find their way out of a paper bag. Sometimes the path is a matter of finances, and for others a matter of intellectual capacity. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, and to each their own. And then there is the wild card of luck and the environment you find yourself in. . .

People find success in different ways, but all necessitate hard work and perseverance. Some are just lucky.

Sorry you were offended Panini. Not my intention. I might have inadvertently found an ideological judgement on your part where there was none.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Jymra. Which company? I'd like to apply for that kind of money.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

jake t buds said:


> I was referencing chefross's comments about people not having spelling or math skills. I was being facetious.
> 
> There are many ways to enter fields of one's choice. Some go the education route, others the "experience is everything" route. You simply cannot dismiss one path outright over the other. Everybody has an opinion based on life choices, and everybody is different. Every situation is different.
> 
> ...


Um... I was quoting from Freddy's post, #5, and I acknowledged this by addressing Freddy directly.

In any case, I can only partially agree with Freddy's statement .

It's true, Chance does favour the prepared mind, and education is a great way to prepare yourself. But having a university degree does not automatically guarantee you a successful career. Just look at any Stah-buck's, at least one barista will have a Bach. of arts, or a degree in Pol. Science. Yet the degree isn't doing much to pay the rent, and it's not much of an advantage over the "other guy" who is willing to work evenings and weekends.

However Freddy is spot-on when he writes "the degree isn't what makes you successful, it's how you apply it". Couldn't agree more.


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

foodpump said:


> It's true, Chance does favour the prepared mind,


Not sure I agree with this. I've heard : luck is where preparation and opportunity meet. It is a nifty, oft use phrase to justify actions by those that succeed. It doesn't take into account those that prepare, work, and do everything necessary, and yet still find themselves outside looking in.

If that phrase had any merit, we, as inhabitants of the planet, would be able to "do" something to prevent getting hit by an asteroid the size of of Pluto.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmmmmm,

But then again, wouldn't it take a prepared mind to realize that "an asteroid the size of Pluto" is coming straight at us?

No wonder those dinosaurs never had a chance......

Hey, just messing with you.  I'm on my final stretch of my "annual christmas marathon"  Straight 12 hr days since Dec. 6th, and 10 hr days on my day off.  So I am a bit snappy and punch drunk....

But then again, what does asteroids and Pluto have to do with kids declaring that culinary school is for eejits,and that hospt. mngmt degrees are the only way to go?  Who's gonna hire a degree holder with rest. mngmt experience?  Or is some bank mngr going approve a loan for some kid (albeit with a degree) with no experience to speak of, other than shucking shrimp @ $16/hr?  

Coffee break's over, weider an die Arbeit,  it's another 3 days before I can actually get some sleep.....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Oh-oh.. My bad,  I should have wrote:

"Who's gonna hire a degree holder with NO rest. mngmt. experience?"


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## neworleanscookj (Nov 22, 2015)

Im just waiting for Donald Trumps opinion on this one :/


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Why would he have an opinion to share? Is he a participant in this cooking forum?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Who, him? 

His luxury hotel/tower is nearing completion here in Vancouver, and our Mayor and councilors are voting on if they should remove his name all together from the building's signage when it opens.  If they can't do that, then they'll at least remove the "t" from his name ......


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Why would that be - because the don't like his personality, politics, or hair style? How very enlightened of them. How very constitutional too.

Hilarious!!!!


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## neworleanscookj (Nov 22, 2015)

Was just trying to diffuse the tension on this thread guys, cheer up yall, its all good


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ummmm... Many, if not all Vancouverites found his remarks regarding Muslims rather, uhhh.... well, best not said.  

So,, are we talking Mr. Hairstyle, Pluto and asteroids, or trollers who have no idea about the hospitality industry?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

...


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW. 

Some people that have been to culinary school are very successful. Maybe they get just the tinyest little bit of attitude after hearing from every person that, for whatever reason, could not go to culinary school who think that o-t-j training is the best and culinary school is useless. That is, of course, because all they've got is o-t-j training and couldn't go to culinary school. Sour grapes so to speak. 

As for those uneducated zillionaires ... they are outliers. They are so very few and far between when you consider just how many business people world-wide there have been historically. They are flukes and should not be considered as models of business action.


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## jimyra (Jun 23, 2015)

chefwriter said:


> Jymra. Which company? I'd like to apply for that kind of money.


It's based out of Atlanta and you have to cook a lot of waffles. It is not your James Beard kind of place.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

Fwiw, I'll add two cents. 

First, I support the opinion that culinary schools are way overpriced. That is a serious detriment to the industry overall as it turns too many people off from going.

With a good curriculum, they provide a solid foundation in the art of cooking, the practice of running a kitchen well and a set of standards to work toward.   

     Depending on on the job training assumes kitchens are equal and experience in any kitchen is as good as any other. With the widespread acceptance of pre packaged foods and the general move in so many restaurants toward less labor intensive practices, the opportunity to do many items from scratch in a commercial kitchen is lost. What I have witnessed from this on the part of many is that the desire to learn is also lost. Too many who consider themselves cooks don't know how to replicate the products they buy and don't understand why they should make the effort to understand how to do so. 

     Going to school, or at least wanting to, is at minimum a recognition that cooking provides a richness of opportunities to learn in many areas. There are those who will self educate if unable to attend school but the vast majority of the cooks I have encountered with only on the job training simply believe that cooking is limited to what they encounter in whatever jobs they happen to have. 

As ChefRoss pointed out, a culinary degree shows that not only do you have a basic understanding of cooking, but that you can read, write and do basic math. Completing culinary school also shows that you have a basic understanding of good kitchen practices, know the basics of food preparation, can make and honor a commitment, complete given tasks, understand the need for and make the effort to achieve a set standards and do what you are told. Most important for me, it shows a willingness to be open minded to learning. 

I would not hire a culinary graduate with no experience but given the choice between two candidates of equal experience, i'll take the graduate.


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## cerise (Jul 5, 2013)

:beer:


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

BrianShaw said:


> Why dub anyone a troll when they are offering a legitimate opinion? Even if it isn't the popular opinion that's not trolling.


Fair enough, it's a good question. But then again "hashbrownclown" hasn't been back on this thread to support his, uh...."opinion", or to further explain his opinion.

Me? After 30 yearsvin the biz, 18 yrs owning my own place, I can tell you a Hosp. Mgmt. degree will not prepare you for:
-scouting and purchasing property
-dealing with city hall requirements for food and or liquor requirements
-dealing with contractors
-dealing with food eqpt. suppliers
-getting vendors to understand that what you order is what you expect delivered
-common repairs to equipment and fixtures

And so on. However the degree will get you light years ahead in terms of accounting, financing, and book keeping.
In other words, you need both education and practical experience to run a succesfull business. One isn't better the the other, they compliment each other


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Thanks Nicko!


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## welldonechef (Sep 28, 2008)

Honestly, I did both. I went to culinary school and apprenticed. Here's the thing. I only paid 6k for school and I didn't go to CIA. I don't believe 70k is good value, but then again you would be going to a school that has a hyper inflated tuition. Why not get your degree at a community college or technical school? 

Second, there is no one way to get good at cookimg except to get out there and cook. Culinary school gives you the foundation that you won't learn on the job. Bit, then again, what you choose to learn is up to you. I've been out of culinary school for 16 years and I still try to learn something new every day.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

My feeling is, if you really want something you will get it. If you really want to be good at something you will find a way to be good at it. Passion was the only thing that helped me through the tough times. I remember taking a managers job at a potato processing plant. I thought this was an all time low for me. Little did I know at that time  it was the stepping stone to starting my own Food service Management company and Catering business.


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## carol2 (Jan 31, 2016)

Hello

I have been cooking for over 30 years, and I know young or old you are only as good as your last meal,lolol, you make one bad meal everyone remembers  that for a long time all I can say is. follow your heart , have lots of passion ,and remember it is just food , so don't stress ,what is the worst thing that will happen

Cheers


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## chefreeseangel (May 27, 2016)

True I was thinking the same thing.
Good cooking oops I mean thinking.


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