# Beef burgers?



## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

I wondered if some one can give me some advice on making a burger pate.

I have a really nice sauce to go with it which I make myself.  Now you can buy some really nice burgers but I want to know how to make my own great ones.

The hard part about a pate is that the meat itself can be quite tasteless.  So it needs something to boost it.  But at the same time I don't want the seasoning to dominate to much.  I still want a nice meaty taste.  So what herds and spices would go great with beef?

I'm planing on adding a bit of Worcester sauce and some ketchup to it. Would bread crumbs  to help it bind take anything away from the taste?


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

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chefbuba


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Back away from the wooster sauce, ketchup & bread crumbs, your not making meat loaf.

I have a food truck, and do burgers, hand cut fries & beer battered onion rings. I also cook all my burgers on a char broiler.

80/20 ground chuck. Fresh, not frozen. Seasoned only when it hits the grill, I make a seasoned salt with granulated garlic & onion, pepper & smoked paprika.

Don't know what is common for burger buns across the pond, weather your selling a $5 burger or a $15 burger. Buns can range from plain crappy white bread, your standard seeded bun to brioche.

A good quality American cheese is a must, you can offer others, but this is my default, it melts well and is not oily like a cheddar. I also offer cheddar, swiss, provolone, pepper jack & crumbled blue.

Streaky Bacon.

A well toasted bun is a must. I make a spread (1000 island) that goes on most of my burgers.

I use heavy mayo, ketchup, sweet pickle relish, grated onion, granulated onion, salt, pepper & a bit of dill pickle juice. Must be made in advance, needs 24 hrs for the flavors to marry.

So a basic burger goes on a well toasted bun, good amount of spread on both sides, squirt of mustard on the top bun along with a good amount of paper thin sliced onion, on the bottom bun 8-10 dill pickle slices, nice slice of tomato & shredded iceburg lettuce.

There is a million ways to skin a cat, that's my method. My clientele is looking for a $10 lunch.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

"---Back away from the wooster sauce, ketchup & bread crumbs, your not making meat loaf. ---"

Exactly what I was going to say.

"---Buns can range from plain crappy white bread, your standard seeded bun to brioche.--"

Right on. Why waste your beef and time to make burgers unless you have good buns?

"--There is a million ways to skin a cat, that's my method. My clientele is looking for a $10 lunch.----"

Delicious burger recipe. That's a $15.00 burger in NYC

dcarch


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## westbigballin (Jun 3, 2014)

I work in a gastropub, our basic house burger sells for $11.

Our burgers come in pre-formed 1/2 lb 80/20 ground chuck patties

House blend of spices pretty liberally on both sides before slapping it on the grill

on top of a Brioche bun

That's pretty much all I can divulge... Aside from "scratch kitchen sandwich shops" (I don't know how to describe their genre, but I'm a HUUUUUGE fan) and their house and specialty burgers, my workplace's burger is probably the best I've had otherwise.

A good patty, a good bun, and a good sauce = winner.

You could probably get away with two of the three if they're on point (sometimes at work for myself, I replace the brioche bun with lettuce. still cover it in sauce though)

My personal experiences: Multi-flipping a burger is the way to go


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## chef torrie (Mar 1, 2011)

ChefBuba, those burgers look something amazing. Absolutely righteous. Those paper thin onions in top are making my mouth water. 

Westbigballin, what exactly do you mean by "multi - flipping"

Torrie


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

Personally I prefer cheddar cheese. My only issue with not adding ketchup and Worcestershire sauce is that the meat may be quite bland on it's own. How can I get some taste into the patty.


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## chef torrie (Mar 1, 2011)

ChrisBristol said:


> Personally I prefer cheddar cheese. My only issue with not adding ketchup and Worcestershire sauce is that the meat may be quite bland on it's own. How can I get some taste into the patty.


What exactly do you mean? Of all the best burger places I know of, that would be sin. We are talking burgers, not meatloaf. If customers want ketchup, they will put it on the burger. All needed, no matter what kind of meat combo being used, is fresh cracked pepper, and liberal salt. Or some type seasoned salt you can mix up as some stated above. Please do not "meatloaf-ize" your burger. They are two different animals. It seems like you are trying to mask the natural greatness. If the quality of the beef good, you want to bring out its natural flavors, not hide them.


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## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

ChrisBristol said:


> Personally I prefer cheddar cheese. My only issue with not adding ketchup and Worcestershire sauce is that the meat may be quite bland on it's own. How can I get some taste into the patty.


I don't know where you are, and the local taste habits/preferences.

Here in the USA, I remember having seen an one-hour documentary TV program on PBS (public channel) on hamburgers, about hamburgers, everything you ever want to know about hamburgers everywhere. It would be very interesting for you to find this program. They also have done one-hour documentaries on ketchup, hotdogs, etc.

dcarch


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

If you feel the need to season the "insides" of your burger sprinkle a handful of your housemade seasoned salt over the meat chunks before you grind.

Fresh.

Every evening....then form your patties (gently), cover with plastic and refrigerate over night.

The less you mess with the meat the better the texture of your end product.


chefbuba said:


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You can skin my cat any time lol.

Pretty much what I want to see when I order a burger.

mimi


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Grind your own meat Brisket, chuck and top round. Cook on  a flat grill. You don't need to add all that stuff to a good burger, put it all on the side. This meat combo if done correctly taste  great. A little salt and pepper that's it.. This combo is done in the Oyster bar, Central Park, Gramercy Tavern (all owned by Danny Meyer ) and other good places in NY. Writen up for years as best NY burger.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

In Britain there are places that will add some of the things I have mentioned to burgers.  Perhaps in America you are doing it a more traditional way.  To be honest it something that I  just want to do. It isn't necessarily something  I would do normally most of the time I would probably buy them.  Sometimes I just like to cook things and they are not necessarily cost affective.  So I might just make some with all the meat mentioned with no extras.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

All meat, salt and pepper, if you don't season it before it hits the grill you'll get a better sear. I used to work at a place where we did a sauce of ketchup, mustard, and pickle relish- i don't like a lot of mayo on mine. Yes please on some pickled onions tho.
Chefedb, is there a ratio for that? Can't wait tovtry it


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Oh, and personally i like a thin patty- with more surface area to cook= more sear= more flavor. As long as you don't cook it to death i don't need a mid rare/ medium burger. Also, more surface are gets seasoned.
Son, if you wanted burger advice you came to the right place. Did you check out the other thread?


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Danny Meyer uses brisket? That's awesome I've always ground ribeye, and I've always been a little afraiad to switch it up but that sounds delish! I also second the comment about not wanting a mr/med burger. It's not a steak and when it's cooked to those temps I've noticed the patties start to fall apart, even though that's how most people seem to order them. Definitely prefer a mid well burger. Man, between chefbuba's piccys and the subject my mouth is seriously watering.


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## redbeerd cantu (Aug 7, 2013)

Remember that the idea for cooking meat is to enjoy the flavors of the meat and whatever you're eating the meat with.

If you're cooking meat and it is bland and not flavorful when it's done, then you might wanna check your meat source to find out if you're really getting the quality you want.  Also make sure that you're using correct cooking techniques to get it done.


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## greenranger (May 13, 2014)

I personally disagree with alot of the input in here..  Ask yourself this.. Why is some of the meat labeled Hamburger (70/30 & 73/27)  The burger is a poor mans meal, its not fancy.. It is meant to be riddled with fat.  If you have never truly fiddled around with making the Greatest burger then you are probably blind to the fact that the burgers fat flavor is the shining star, and as hard to believe it may be the Flavor variation from 70/30 to 80/20 is out of this world.    I have ground my own meat, and their is no reason to use a specific cut.. We grind meat to use up the scraps, the small bits after we trim a cow down into steaks & roasts..  

The burger is a relatively new food, only popularized in like 1900... It did not gain wide spread recognition because it was created with lean meat.   

IMO all standard "Burger" patties  should be made the same.  Its far more impressive to make an amazing burger, and add to a perfectly cooked pattie VS trying to incorporate whatever special ingredients into the pattie itself. 

Perfect Burger Patty

1/2lb 70/30 Ground Beef formed and shaped perfectly,

 A divet/well/thumbprint (call it what you want) needs to be pressed into the center (equally on both sides, this will ease the surface tension and stop the burger from shrinking into a fat round ball)

SALT!! SALT!! SALT!!  (it is hard to over salt red meat  the running juices will wash most away so you need plenty from the get go)  and of Course some pepper like all things should be seasoned

Optional: Light sprinkle of garlic powder (While it may be unecessary, I think it is 100% necessary for balanced flavor perfection)


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

70/30 sounds like my grill catching fire, dang.


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## greenranger (May 13, 2014)

Nah, give it a 45* turn for the diamonds and move it to  a slightly different spot every time you turn or flip it, and no grills will be set a flame.


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## daedralord (Jun 18, 2014)

70/30 is a good ratio. If you want to enhance the flavor you can add tiny bit of onions and parsley very finely chopped in the meat. It gives a really nice fresh aroma to the burger. You can also use fresh spearmint instead of parsley if you prefer stronger seasoning.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

Hello

Well An update.  I have made my burgers a few times now.  I have got some good quality chuck mince from one of the best butchers in my city.  It has a about 20% fat.

I add a bit of parsley, some paprika and cumin to it and I add the salt and pepper before I cook it.  It is very nice but still a bi dry. I have added some onions to it to moisten it a bit does anyone have any more tips to make it less dry? Also I thinkI remember reading once that you can use more than one cut of meat perhaps brisket as well is this right?


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Dry meat= not enough fat. Youmay need a higher mix of fat in your grind. Also, what are you currently cooking it too, temp. wise? I like my burgers cooked but it's possible to do it without drying them out.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Also, nice to hear back on this thread after so long


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

Hi

They were actually quite rare so they weren't to bad if they had been cooked longer they would be to dry.  How would I solve the problem of not enough fat?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

I've never made hamburgers without egg and breadcrumb for binding. I find they tend to fall apart otherwise. I think if you're buying anything preformed you're making a massive mistake. I like a dash of cumin and a hint of really fine ground oregano, also am a fan of worcestershire in the mix. Have seen people make burgers with a panade, this does seem to make a nice difference in terms of moisture and the retention thereof... Could do a take on the meatball technique and sub your breadcrumb for bread (usually soaked in part of the milk for your panade and then mashed with a fork so it can be distributed evenly through the mix) It is illegal where I live to serve ground chuck as anything less than well done. That puts alot of Americans off.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

If I was overworking the burgers a bit could that be drying them out?


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

30 percent fat content is recommended here in the west typically, though I have had success using Bison which was considerably leaner, 15 if I recall. That extra 10 might be enough to get them where you want them. Never press down on the burger at any point during cooking. Pan/plancha is always preferred to grill for moisture, at least in my humble opine.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Theoretically overworking could make them tough. Are you grinding the meat yourself?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Try at least 75% fat if you can and don't overwork it.  Patty it with the least handling you can.  I'm pretty much in the camp of just using fresh pepper and good salt.  I've never heard of mixing eggs or crumbs in a burger- to me that's a meatloaf recipe.

IMO bison/buffalo is a $hitty meat for burgers.  Way too lean, they're dry and tend to fall apart.  Flavor wise they just taste like a ten year old cow.


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## gator (Sep 30, 2014)

I personally like a nice really sharp swiss on my burgers. Also, if you play with them a lot you will get dry burgers. Never, ever smash the burgers or press them down with a spatula at any point during cooking. When grilling, make sure you have high heat and put the burger on and don't touch it until 1. Blood starts rising from the meat and 2. when they release from the grill. Flip once, put cheese on it and you're done. Also, as some here have suggested, don't season your meat until they are just about to hit the grill. Keep in mind, if you play with them too long with adding spices and compressing the patty too much, that can also produce dry burgers. Lightly make it into a patty and if you have to add spices to the meat, do it gently and try not to manhandle it too much.

If you follow what others have said here and don't mess with your burgers too much, you should get a nice juicy burger.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

Phaedrus said:


> Try at least 75% fat if you can and don't overwork it. Patty it with the least handling you can. I'm pretty much in the camp of just using fresh pepper and good salt. I've never heard of mixing eggs or crumbs in a burger- to me that's a meatloaf recipe.
> 
> IMO bison/buffalo is a $hitty meat for burgers. Way too lean, they're dry and tend to fall apart. Flavor wise they just taste like a ten year old cow.


 75 percent fat eh...  ten year old cow...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Ah, now I see./img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif No offense, I just hate working with the stuff. We sell quite a few buffalo burgers where I work (according to the P-mix something like a thousand in 2013) and I just don't like them at all. People seem to eat 'em up but the texture is off and they fall apart much more easily than beef burgers. Could be the supplier we use, and I'm not the guy pattying them up so I don't know how they're being handled. I don't care for the taste and they smell repulsive to me.

As far as beef goes I think 80/20 is fine but if the OP is finding that to be too dry, and if the meat isn't overcooked, then perhaps that ratio is to lean for that person. Or maybe it's been frozen, I dunno. Personally I think 70/30 is getting fatty to the point that you lose too much to shrinkage during cooking but depends on the situation I suppose.

As for the pan or plancha I think SpoiledBroth is spot on. I like to broil burgers but some of the best ones I've ever had were seared in a pan. When I make a burger at home I generally form the patty, vac seal it with a soft vac and _sous vide_ it at 130 F for 2.5 hours, then finish it with 30 seconds per side in a screaming hot cast iron pan with a TBSP or so of coconut oil. It gets an amazing crust while leaving it on the MR side.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

I don't grind it myself no I don't have the means to.  One possibly very important thing I forgot to mention was that it was actually 3 days before I actually made the burgers and the meat although OK had started to change colour. Possibly that didn't help.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Well, then, do you know what the fat content is? Usually where i get it, it's labelled. If you're unsure, do go ask at the place you purchased it. Next question is if it's all one cut or a variety of scraps. If the meat hasn't been cooking up right for you, try getting a piece of , say, chuck and having them grind that, hopefully supplementing with a little fat.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Three day old meat is a factor.


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## chrisbristol (Feb 16, 2014)

The butcher told me it was 18 to 20% fat.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

Then your next step is to try 20% or higher w/ only one cut of beef.. or two or three that you select, and not trim from whatever


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Fresh ground choice 80/20 chuck. Not over cooked, nice and juicy.

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## tattooedchef (May 8, 2014)

I use 80\20 ground chuck and I only flip it once. We serve two 4oz sliders and house cut curly fries with jalapeño bacon gravy on the fries. I also serve flaming wings "literally". Wrongs are tossed in house made sauce then have 151 drizzled on top. Then they are lit on fire right in front of the guest. 
Chef Justin Johnson
Executive Chef Red Goose Saloon


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## alaminute (Aug 22, 2013)

Some damn good looking food there tattooedchef! I would annhialate that poutine


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## gourmettart (Oct 2, 2014)

How about adding some teaspoon of cinnamon teaspoon of siracha sauce salt garlic onions breadcrumbs egg handful of grated cheddar some cracked black pepper delicous...
Den I would serve them in a floury bap with whiskey Mayo bacon jam slice emental cheese and a bit of rocket!!!


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## tattooedchef (May 8, 2014)

@gourmettart sounds like your trying to confuse the guests palate. Keep it simple and make your ingredients do the talking. Simplicity is the key to great food, not 29 different ingredients. Not trying to sound like an asshole. But after 17 years. Simplicity is always your best recipe for success.


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## spoiledbroth (Sep 25, 2014)

29 different ingredients? I count 8... I think that sounds like a wicked burger. There are a lot of restaurants where it would be inappropriate to serve unseasoned chuck (not talking salt and pepper), I would opine that any burger (un)seasoned like that could easily be recreated at home for less money by the guest. If your price point is 20 dollars for entrees and you've got a burger on the menu you'd better be damn sure you do something extra so as not to gouge the guest.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Apropos of nothing I sometimes wonder if anyone in my town even has a kitchen in their home!  You can drive by any decent restaurant in town even on, say, a Monday night at 6:00pm, and it's pretty busy.  When I eat out it's either because I'm out shopping or running errands and am in a hurry or when I want something that's a PITA to cook at home.  In the latter case I'm thinking of something like Chinese where I'd have to buy a lot of ingredients I don't normally keep on hand or if I want a Napoli pizza where you really need an oven hotter than I can get mine at home.  But most people seem to just eat a high percentage of their meals in restaurants.

It seems strange to me have dozens of ingredients in a burger.  Generally I only season mine with S&P.  I can see adding some onion or garlic under some circumstances.  To each their own but I don't season the meat much preferring to add condiments if necessary.  I like the taste of the beef to shine through.


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