# Problems with blind baking a quiche crust



## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

The recipe used is listed in the BAKERS COMPANION by KA.

Once the pie crust is ready to be placed into the oven, it's lined with a piece of aluminum foil that's been oiled, the side that's facing the crust. Pie weights are then added. The crust is baked for 15 minutes at 425F using a metallic quiche pan made by Fat Daddio's.

At the end of the bake time the setup is placed on a baking rack and the foil containing the pie weights lifted off. The problem is that the crust sticks to the oiled foil and rips apart. Also the floor of the crust is soggy with fat (butter and lard) dripping through the removeable bottom of the pan.

Should I attempt blind baking without the foil? Would the use of parchment paper be a better alternative???

*HELP PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! 8^()*


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I hate baking blind with with weights....

You can't fight gravity, but you can make gravity work for you.

This is what I do:

-You need two identical baking forms.

-line one out as per rnormal

-Stick the other one on top, so the dough is "sandwiched" inbetween the two

-Place this contraption _*upside down *_on a baking tray and bake

-Invert and remove the outer form


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

foodpump said:


> ...
> This is what I do:
> 
> -You need two identical baking forms.
> ...


Good hearing from an older member, FP. [email protected], Zen and the art of baking. Will certainly do so next time. Fat Daddios, here I come again for another pan. Oh boy oh boy, a new gadget. 8^)

I had also thought of drilling holes in the floor of the removable flat pan.

So I assume that you, too, had problems with fat leaking/draining through your pan until your discovery!!??


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

_WOW._ That is a really cool suggestion.

Maybe though, remember to have a pan underneath if it's gonna drip.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

IceMan said:


> _WOW._ That is a really cool suggestion.
> 
> Maybe though, remember to have a pan underneath if it's gonna drip.


What I plan to do is set my DeBuyer carbon steel fry pan underneath the quiche pans to catch the drippings. I can't think of a better way to season the DeBuyers. But as FoodPump mentioned, the setup is placed in a baking tray (sheet pan my guess).


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Those blind bake instructions are kinda scary...what's up with the KA people?

If you have not yet purchased the extra pan (def gonna try foodpump's tip) just  dock the pastry and use parchment and beans (I have set aside pintos just for this purpose).

Oiled foil on top of fat and flour....oy.

What's gonna be INSIDE this much talked about quiche crust?

mimi


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

flipflopgirl said:


> Those blind bake instructions are kinda scary...what's up with the KA people?
> 
> If you have not yet purchased the extra pan (def gonna try foodpump's tip) just dock the pastry and use parchment and beans (I have set aside pintos just for this purpose).
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, you stated "...oiled foil..." Now I stated oiled foil and it stuck to the floor of the crust. Do you mean parchment solely??????


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Your problem seems more about the dough consistency than your method.

Are you working with chilled dough?

Aluminum foil or parchment...it does not matter...neither of them should stick in any instance.

Use more flour to roll out the crust. It should not be sticky at all.

I pre-bake my quiche crusts with foil and beans for about 7-8 minutes at 425.

I open the oven, remove the foil and beans, then pour in my ingredients.

Small trick here......I always add cheese and ingredients firstly then make a small hole in the center where I brush away the ingredients....why?

It makes it so that when slicing a piece the end will be a sharp point. If their are ingredients in the way....you don't get a descent point.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Since I don't know type of dough or makeup of it. I would say you are not baking it long enough. The foil acts as an insulator in the beginning not allowing enogh heat and trapping moisture in(therefore soggy crust.. When you put crust in punch some pin  holes in it and bake, when almost done press down on it.Then finish baking. Or put another pie plate on top with a circle of parchment in between. Fill the upper pie plate with beans or weights and bake, pull off when 3/4 done so slight browning takes place and dough is baked.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

This dough was rather sticky when finished blending.It was gathered together, flattened to 1 inch between a section of plastic wrap and then placed in the fridge for half an hour.  It was then rolled out onto a flour covered pastry cloth prior to placing in the pre chilled quiche pan.

Ingredients:

1/2 C White Lily AP flour

1 C White Lily Bread Flour (4g protein per serving, and White Lily seem lighter than other flours, particularly lighter than KA AP flour)

EDIT 1/4 C lard (NOT 1/2 C lard as originally listed)

1 cube (4 oz) Land O Lakes unsalted butter

1/3 C cold water


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Was butter and shortening mixed in or cut in?  Pie doughs are mostly cut in


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

Wow the ratio of butter to flour is way off. Way too much fat for the flour, imo. I use a 3:1 ratio of volume ratio of flour to fat and it works out very well. Also the amount of water to flour is crazy.

Try this;

3 cups AP flour

2 teaspoons sugar (makes for very nice browning)

1 teaspoon salt

1 cup (8 ounces) cold butter, cut into small pieces

1/2 cup ice water

Toss the dry ingredients together in a large bowl or pulse in a food processor. Add the butter and toss to coat pieces with flour then cut in until you have a consistency that looks like sand and pebbles. Alternatively, add the butter to the food processor and pulse quickly about 6-7 times-sand and pebbles again.

Drizzle in the water and toss quickly with a rubber spatula until it comes together. Pat into a disk and chill for about 20 minutes to allow the proteins to relax.

Roll between two floured sheets of parchment, lifting occasionally to sprinkle with flour to prevent sticking.

The dough should be firm, like a sheet of soft leather.

press into the desired pan and chill again. Place a piece of parchment on top and fill with old beans, rice, coffee paper clips anything to weigh it down.

Bake at 375 for about 20 minutes until bottom looks a little dry when to lift up the parchment to check.

I generally bake it longer for quiche because the filling is very wet when added and will tend to make the bottom soggy.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Ed has totally hit the nail.

Shouldn't matter what you use, your pastry should not drip.

Sticky dough is a hint of too much liquid,and the measurement of it in a pastry recipe should just be a suggestion, a humid day, for instance, you can most likely use less.

When faced with a sticky dough, roll out with extra bench flour.

I was given this tip from my Gma Van...place all ingredients (except the liquid, that goes into the fridge) in the freezer for a few hours and then proceed with the recipe.

The fats should be already cut into small pieces before freezing.

She taught me with the 2 knives procedure, now I use my food processor (2 knives take wayyy too much time when making multiple crusts, lol)

So I stick the processor blade in the freezer, also.

IDK, may just be voodoo, but my crusts are (almost) always perfect.

I then roll out between two pieces of parchment (I re-use one to line the crust for blind baking) , flip into the dish, dock , line and weigh down (beans or weights doesn't matter, I am frugal so just use my (cheap!) beans over and over) and bake until almost light brown.

You didn't answer my question....quiche is a fave supper at my house and we are always looking for new combos!

mimi


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Ah!

Forgot the sugar!

Thanks, f &f...

OT here...how did your savory pies do this weekend?

mimi


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

* Exported from MasterCook *

3-2-1 Pie Crust (Pâte Brisée)

Recipe By ete V. McCracken, as adapted from "Ratio-The Simple Codes Behind the Craft of Everyday Cooking" by Michael Ruhlman
Serving Size : 8 Preparation Time :0:00
Categories : Dough Pies
Savory Sweet
Tarts or Quiches

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
12 ounces flour
4 ounces butter -- cold
4 ounces lard -- cold
2 ounces ice water -- maybe as much as 4 ounces
1 pinch salt -- about 1/2 teaspoon

Combine flour and fats in a mixing bowl and rub fats with fingers until you have small beads of fat and plenty of pea sized chunks.

Add ice water gradually and a good pinch of salt and mix gently, just until combined DO NOT OVER MIX!

shape into two equal disks, wrap in plastic wrap, and refrigerate for 15 minutes or until ready to roll out

Source:
""Ratio" by Michael Ruhlman, page 25"
Copyright:
"Copyright [emoji]169[/emoji]2010 all rights reserved, by Pete V. McCracken, 657 Village Green St., Porterville, CA 93257 (559) 784-6192 [email protected]"
Yield:
"1 pie shell and lid"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 384 Calories; 26g Fat (61.4% calories from fat); 5g Protein; 32g Carbohydrate; 1g Dietary Fiber; 45mg Cholesterol; 135mg Sodium. Exchanges: 2 Grain(Starch); 5 Fat.

Nutr. Assoc. : 0 0 0 0 0


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Thats the way I learned it, Thats why its called cut -in. Sugar will make it brown faster.. I have also seen recipes that add an egg .I don't


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

chefedb said:


> Was butter and shortening mixed in or cut in? Pie doughs are mostly cut in


I think mixed in.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Chef EdB, Flipflop, Pete and to others:  THANKS!  And yes, too much fat and I failed to place all cut up and dry ingredients into the freezer for and hour or two prior to forming and shaping the dough.  Will strive next week to correct, will be baking two Q. Lorraines, one for me and the other for a friend's family, following the recipe (modified crust) listed in the KA Bakers Companion tome.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> * Exported from MasterCook *
> 
> 3-2-1 Pie Crust (Pâte Brisée)
> 
> ...


Pete, "12 oz flour" by weight, meaning approx 3C of flour?? Am I correct? 3C of flour for every 8 oz fat give or take...?

...and actually I used 2 oz lard (1/4 C) in the recipe which has since been corrected:

*1 1/2 C flour*

*4oz (1 stick) butter*

*2 oz (1/4 C) lard* <======== THE CORRECTION.

*salt*

Seems according to all of your proportions, that 6 oz fat calls for more than just 1 1/2 C flour! 8^)

Best,

-T


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## pateachoux (Sep 16, 2012)

There's no need for knives, food processors or pastry cutters. Use your fingers. Toss the butter in the flour, then break it up until it's the size of peas. Use cold butter or shortening and ice water. There's also no need for spatulas or spoons. Mix the dough with your hands. It's messy, but it works. Knead the dough right there in your bowl, making sure you fold the dough over on itself several times, but not so much that the fat melts. As someone else already said, shape into a disk (kind of like a hamburger patty), wrap in plastic wrap, then refrigerate for 20 minutes. You don't need parchment paper, either. Just use plenty of BREAD flour on your bench and always keep the circle of dough moving--roll, quarter turn, roll, quarter turn, etc. You'll have to constantly make sure you have loose flour underneath your dough. It's quite simple, actually. Practice makes perfect. Food processors will make a mealy dough. Most people prefer flaky.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Kokopuffs, Rulman's Ratios are by *WEIGHT*, not volume. If your flour weighs 4 ounces per cup, then 3 cups /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif

3-2-1 pie crust is the ratio by weight; 3 parts flour, 2 parts fat, 1 part liquid (actually less, varies with moisture in flour)


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

> Originally Posted by *flipflopgirl*
> 
> ...You didn't answer my question....quiche is a fave supper at my house and we are always looking for new combos!
> 
> mimi


...I substituted smoked hog jowl for bacon and I used ham and slightly browned onions with dry vermouth along with some grated swiss cheese. To prevent the filling from leaking as did happen in my very first Q a couple of months ago, some cheese was added to the blind baked crust and then placed into the oven for just long enough to melt. Then the ham and jowl were added and baked a short while. Finally, the filling was added and topped with the remainder of the cheese along with some green onions (couldn't find chives locally). The usual seasoning along with some crushed white pepper. Overall the combo was tasty.

For browning I'll try adding 2 tsp granulated sugar to the dry ingredients (enough to brown two 9 inch tart crusts?????).

For additional browning, has anyone thought about using some black walnut extract as it does a good job coloring my scones.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Pateachoux said:


> ...Just use plenty of BREAD flour on your bench and always keep the circle of dough moving--roll, quarter turn, roll, quarter turn, etc. You'll have to constantly make sure you have loose flour underneath your dough. It's quite simple, actually. Practice makes perfect. Food processors will make a mealy dough. Most people prefer flaky.


For rolling out the dough, why the use of BREAD FLOUR underneath the dough as opposed to AP??

Chez K'ko's, everything is done by hand! No food processor here.


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## pateachoux (Sep 16, 2012)

Because BREAD FLOUR will not leave as many small lumps of flour on your dough as AP flour, and next time you want to quote me, do it correctly. I only used all caps to emphasize the word BREAD.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Interesting, one learns something every day, even after many years.

To what do you attribute the lack of small lumps?


Pateachoux said:


> Because BREAD FLOUR will not leave as many small lumps of flour on your dough as AP flour, and next time you want to quote me, do it correctly. I only used all caps to emphasize the word BREAD.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Kokopuffs, Rulman's Ratios are by *WEIGHT*, not volume. If your flour weighs 4 ounces per cup, then 3 cups /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif
> 
> 3-2-1 pie crust is the ratio by weight; 3 parts flour, 2 parts fat, 1 part liquid (actually less, varies with moisture in flour)


 Aaaahhhhh, I get it: bakers' percentages. 66% fat and up to 33% water!!!!!!!!


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## pateachoux (Sep 16, 2012)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Interesting, one learns something every day, even after many years.
> 
> To what do you attribute the lack of small lumps?


I learned this technique from an advanced pastry chef at school. She's won several gold and silver medals from the American Culinary Federation (for whatever that's worth). Before taking her class, I never used bread flour to roll out dough, only AP flour. It might just be a little eccentricity of hers, but I do notice that I can now roll out dough like a champ, but that might just be due to proper technique, tons of practice, and a new and improved can-do attitude. The small lumps of flour might be so miniscule that it hardly matters at all what kind of flour one uses. Then again, we all know that bread flour has a higher gluten content, which could possibly make the dough tougher, but maybe it's such a small amount that it doesn't matter. Who knows...I know someone who swears by using rice flour to roll out dough.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I use all cold ingredients and implements 'cuz my hands are too hot and melt the fats instead of making the peas and cornbread texture.

Have the same problem when piping BC...have to fill two bags (and keep the extra in the fridge) and alternate when my piping gets messy.

Any tips for my problem, BC I would be happy, happy to use the rubbing method and not have to clean up all that extra crap every time I make pastry.

Must be technique, cuz my processor turns out a nice flaky product, altho I do work it a bit when I dump it out before the disk shaping and cling wrap wrapping and popping into the fridge.

mimi

* Do you think living/working in the Texas heat has anything to do with it?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Yum, koko!

Printed it out and placed with my egg recipes!

mimi


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Hands generate heat, food processor generates friction whih in turn generates heat/ Pie dough does not want heat. I still do with 2 table knives home


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## kippers (Aug 31, 2012)

I never blind bake Quiche shells. Brisee made with T55. Heavy tins, Heavy baking sheet.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

ed, that's why I stick the processor blade in the freezer, to prevent the heat build up.

I also only pulse a few times, then dump it out, work it into a ball (gently!) then divide and make the disks, cover and stick into the fridge for a few hours.

IDK...works for me.

Like I posted before, my crusts are (almost) always flaky.

mimi


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kippers said:


> I never blind bake Quiche shells. Brisee made with T55. Heavy tins, Heavy baking sheet.


@Kippers: you mean to bake your prefilled shells in a tarte/pie pan that's placed within a baking/sheet pan that's placed into the oven?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

flipflopgirl said:


> Yum, koko!
> 
> Printed it out and placed with my egg recipes!
> 
> mimi


I'm soooooo flattered to have provided inspiration to someone, a real chef/home cook, at this forum.


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## pateachoux (Sep 16, 2012)

kokopuffs said:


> I'm soooooo flattered to have provided inspiration to someone, a real chef/home cook, at this forum.


As opposed to a fake one...


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## kippers (Aug 31, 2012)

kokopuffs said:


> @Kippers: you mean to bake your prefilled shells in a tarte/pie pan that's placed within a baking/sheet pan that's placed into the oven?


More or less Koko, I place my flat heavy baking sheet in the oven and bring both up to temp, I then place the filled tin on the sheet.I do blind bake when I am making uncooked sweet tarts.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Okay here's what I did yesterday:

*CRUST*

*1 1/2 C White Lily AP Flour (2% protein is what's listed on the label)*

*4 oz unsalted butter (1 stick)*

*1 tsp salt*

*1 tsp sugar*

*1/4 C rose water (or slightly less)*

*KA Bread flour for dusting my pastry cloth*

The butter was cut tp pea-size and placed into a bowl with all of the dry ingredients. Then all of ingredients were covered and placed in the freezer for an hour prior to forming the dough.

The dough was rolled out and placed into the tarte pan without issue. The filled pan was then placed in a sheet pan that was at room temperature (Kippers, next time I'll know better when it comes to preheating the sheet pan). The dough was brushed with an egg wash and then then placed in a 425F preheated oven and baked for about 10 minutes in the center of the oven and 15 minutes on the top rack.

The crust came out better and not nearly as soggy as the last one and I noticed some fat leakage into the sheet pan but not as much as before. Here's the kicker: you'll note my use of White Lily AP flour at 2% protein. Most AP flour clocks in around 4% protein and I think that the type of flour/percent protein determines how much fat to use. Simply put, it just feels as if I'm using too much fat for the kind of flour in my recipe.

Instead of the *3 - 2 - 1* proportion, it should probably be around *3 - 1.5 - 1* using White Lily AP.


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you for the feedback KoKo, I have learned a few tips while reading this last night.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

petalsandcoco said:


> Thank you for the feedback KoKo, I have learned a few tips while reading this last night.


NICE to hear from an established member.

BTW and I'm not shouting but just emphasizing my notification: 1/4 C ROSE WATER IS WAY TOOO TOOO TOOO MUCH ROSE WATER FOR THIS RECIPE. Next time I'll try using only a teaspoon.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Koko....I think you are right about the flour/fat ratio.

Maybe cut back on the fat next time cuz' I am reading between the lines that you are a huge fan of White Lilly (hey, it is in my Gma's bisquit recipe and I would never ever change it)

Oh, and your quiche recipe has been added to the Christmas morning menu.

mimi


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## petalsandcoco (Aug 25, 2009)

kokopuffs said:


> NICE to hear from an established member.
> 
> BTW and I'm not shouting but just emphasizing my notification: 1/4 C ROSE WATER IS WAY TOOO TOOO TOOO MUCH ROSE WATER FOR THIS RECIPE. Next time I'll try using only a teaspoon.


Oh my yes ! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gifI put that much in my bath /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smoking.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

I probably am misreading KoKo's recipe but need clarification.

Are you cutting the *butter* into pea sized pieces (that's what I read) and adding to the flour or are you cutting the *butter into the flour* until you get pea sized pieces of butter coated with flour as well as some sand sized flour?

As I read it, the former appears to be the case. This might lead to the fat leaking as the flour and butter have not been combined.

Then again, perhaps my reading skills need improvement /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

flipflopgirl said:


> Koko....I think you are right about the flour/fat ratio.
> 
> Maybe cut back on the fat next time cuz' I am reading between the lines that you are a huge fan of White Lilly (hey, it is in my Gma's bisquit recipe and I would never ever change it)
> 
> ...


Hog Jowl Fat is a fat that's highly prized. Try using some of it you your crusts. As to WL Flour, it's local and cheap and I thought that I'd give it a try after having used KA for almost a decade. And so what that WL is a bleached flour; but, also it makes for a very light and tender loaf of bread. Btw I read your profile and I'm a former chrio. 8)


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> I probably am misreading KoKo's recipe but need clarification.
> 
> Are you cutting the *butter* into pea sized pieces (that's what I read) and adding to the flour or are you cutting the *butter into the flour* until you get pea sized pieces of butter coated with flour as well as some sand sized flour?
> 
> ...


@Pete:

Butter cut to pea size. Butter added to flour without working the 'peas' into the flour. Mixture frozen for an hour. After which, the fat is worked into the flour and and patted into a disk and then placed into plastic wrap for at least half an hour to rest if the fridge. It's then rolled out and docked.

What do you mean by "...cutting the butter into the flour until you get pea sized pieces of butter coated with flour..."??????????????????????????????? Ahhh, here might be the crux. EDIT: do you mean cut the butter into the flour (rubbing) followed by refrigeration followed by final mixing with water followed by rolling out??


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Yup!

There is, to me, an excellent description of the process starting on page 139 of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking", Julia Childs, Louisette Bertholle, and Simone Beck, that includes details of _fraisage_, the final blending of the flour and fat.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Yup!
> 
> There is, to me, an excellent description of the process starting on page 139 of "Mastering the Art of French Cooking", Julia Childs, Louisette Bertholle, and Simone Beck, that includes details of _fraisage_, the final blending of the flour and fat.


I used this link to checkout _fraisage_. Chilled, the fat is worked into the flour, mixed with the other ingredients, followed by smearing, and then shaped into a disc, wrapped and refrigerated prior to rolling out and docking. EDIT: it appears that the _fraisage_ is the final smearing of the flour using the heel of the hand.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

kokopuffs said:


> I used this link to checkout _fraisage_. Chilled, the fat is worked into the flour, mixed with the other ingredients, followed by smearing, and then shaped into a disc, wrapped and refrigerated prior to rolling out and docking. EDIT: it appears that the _fraisage_ is the final smearing of the flour using the heel of the hand.


Believe it, that is an EXACT quotation from the above cited reference, word for word, and no credit given!


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## michaelga (Jan 30, 2012)

such a little technique that has such a huge impact on the outcome...

Well i'm hoping that sorts out that!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Believe it, that is an EXACT quotation from the above cited reference, word for word, and no credit given!


THANKS to Julia Child! Now, a word from our sponsor... (switch to blue commercial)

FWIW her crust recipe appears to be *2 - 2 - 1*:

*8 oz flour (2 C)*

*8 oz fat approx.*

*4 oz water*

So the AP flour that she's using obviously isn't White Lily but something having a higher protein content around 4% instead of 2%. And yes, she's adding more flour during dusting and wrapping.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I think I am the one that confused you, koko.

I cut the fats up into small pieces and place into the freezer with the other ingredients (to clarify my procedure, most peeps don't do this, but when your Gma tells you to do something, you don't ask questions, lolol).

When everything is nice and cold-cold-cold you work the fats into the flour and proceed from there... whether you rub it in, cut it in with 2 knives, use a pastry cutter or a food processor you are attempting to enrobe tiny, tiny, tiny bits of fat with flour, this is what gives you the flaky texture you are seeking.

When the mixture has the appearance of peas (or cornmeal), add the ice water a bit at a time.

You are looking for a nice cohesive ball, if it is sticky (too much water added, the amt of liquid depends on so many variables) it can be saved by rolling out with some extra bench flour.

Scatter flour, place the dough on it and pat it down, dust the top with a bit of flour, turn the dough over and start the rolling, dusting with more flour prn, ;-) roll...keep the dough moving by flipping and rolling and giving it a half turn, flip......stop adding the flour when things no longer try to stick.

I just cut my fats to pea size (before freezing) to get a head start and avoid over working  the dough and melting the fat with the heat produced by the machine.

Just the way I was taught.

Oh my goodness....poor koko!

This is a perfect example of too many cooks in the kitchen, lolol!

mimi

* Not to add more confusion, but a pie placed on a pizza stone placed low in the oven, and pre-heated will also give the un-blind baked crust a nice brown color.

I seldom ever remove my stone from the oven floor.

m.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

flipflopgirl said:


> ...* Not to add more confusion, but a pie placed on a pizza stone placed low in the oven, and pre-heated will also give the un-blind baked crust a nice brown color.
> I seldom ever remove my stone from the oven floor.
> 
> m.


@M: Sounds as if you don't use fraisage. And up to now your method is identical to the one I've been using.

I use a baking stone when bread baking but am a bit hesitant to use it for a dough that's high in fat. Won't the stone absorb some of that fat, resulting in a rancid odor if not baked at temperatures high enough to evaporate that absorbed fat afterwards?


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## kippers (Aug 31, 2012)

One of the crispest and most resilient pastries I use is called "hot water crust" over here, you boil the water and fat together then dump into the flour.

The paste is then chilled overnight, the paste then holds its shape even when using a "dolly" to hand raise  a 4+" pie


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kippers said:


> One of the crispest and most resilient pastries I use is called "hot water crust" over here, you boil the water and fat together then dump into the flour.
> 
> The paste is then chilled overnight, the paste then holds its shape even when using a "dolly" to hand raise a 4+" pie


Please explain "dolly". Is the paste mixed and then allowed to set overnight prior to rolling out and docking or what? "Hand raise"???


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## pateachoux (Sep 16, 2012)

Boiling water and fat, then adding flour sounds a lot like making a pâte à choux dough without adding eggs. I also use this process to make Pommes deTerre Dauphine, except I use chicken consomme instead of water. Hm...I've never thought to chill it and then roll it out to use as a pie crust. Interesting.


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## kippers (Aug 31, 2012)

Koko if you watch this vid your questions will be answered


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

It may vary with different stone materials and weights, but the fat/oil absorbed into my stone has developed a nice patina after years (20?) of use.

I can bake biscuits and then a spicy tomato sauce pizza and turn around and make some chocolate chip cookies the next day.

No carry over flavors.

Never really questioned how or why but now you have me wondering.

Off to search and question and learn.

Will report back.

mimi


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## ishbel (Jan 5, 2007)

I use hot water crust to make raised pies and Scotch pies (aka mutton pies, although seldom made with mutton nowadays).


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

A lot of what is out there is written by stone users that only use it for pizza, so here is a bit from my own experience.

I have an unglazed oven baking stone (round and VERY heavy) that I was told to never wash with soap. I treat it almost exactly the same as my good, well seasoned cast iron skillets and dutch oven.

I pour out /wipe off any remaining oil and fond, wipe with paper towels and if there is anything stuck...pour in/on a generous amt of kosher salt and let it sit for a bit and scrub again with paper towels.

I do sometimes rely on a small (plastic) scraper if something isn't dislodged by the salt scrub.

I have had my stone for many years and it is very discolored.

My Gma Van (my very first mentor and kitchen angel of the guardian persuasion) taught me the more you use it the darker it will become (she was talkin' about cast iron of course, baking stones were not a kitchen fixture in her time).

Even though it doesn't look that great, it is actually OK because it is seasoned and that is actually what you want your stone to eventually look like.

Like I mentioned before, I rarely move mine from its home on the deck of my gas oven.

mimi


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## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

The problem is your supposed to make the bottom crust thicker so it doesn't drip through like that, my cooking lecturer at college taught me that one and it works every time, don't make it thin as you would with the top of a pie, i would also review how much fat you put into making the crust but yes use the rubbing method as people have said to make sure all of it is rubbed into the flour. Also when you oil the bottom if you use cooking oil never do that because all it does is dries up the bottom and makes the foil stick to it, grease it with a nice amount of butter but not too much but enough to know it won't stick to it, don't listen to people that say use oil to grease it, you only do that for certain types of things like when you make pizza but NEVER with many things, anything like cakes, muffins, cheese cakes, cookies, pies and pastries you should never use oil.

I agree with the others too freeze everything before hand, just put everything in and try to cut everything as small as possible, i keep over working pastry because my hands are very warm so when rubbing i would cut all the lard and butter very small otherwise it will take longer to rub in and it will just over work, the color needs to be a pale brown color not a very dark brown color, i'm going to start cutting the fats really small myself really the next time i make pie dough.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I use the "hot water"method crust for pate en croute, except I use milk instead of water.  It's a very flexible dough and holds it's shape well.


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## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

Kippers said:


> Koko if you watch this vid your questions will be answered


Do pork pies take 4 days to make in every single pie shop? :O lol


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

emmbai90 said:


> The problem is your supposed to make the bottom crust thicker so it doesn't drip through like that, my cooking lecturer at college taught me that one and it works every time, don't make it thin as you would with the top of a pie, i would also review how much fat you put into making the crust but yes use the rubbing method as people have said to make sure all of it is rubbed into the flour. Also when you oil the bottom if you use cooking oil never do that because all it does is dries up the bottom and makes the foil stick to it, grease it with a nice amount of butter but not too much but enough to know it won't stick to it, don't listen to people that say use oil to grease it, you only do that for certain types of things like when you make pizza but NEVER with many things, anything like cakes, muffins, cheese cakes, cookies, pies and pastries you should never use oil.
> 
> I agree with the others too freeze everything before hand, just put everything in and try to cut everything as small as possible, i keep over working pastry because my hands are very warm so when rubbing i would cut all the lard and butter very small otherwise it will take longer to rub in and it will just over work, the color needs to be a pale brown color not a very dark brown color, i'm going to start cutting the fats really small myself really the next time i make pie dough.


Ummm, a bit of butter rubbed into the bottom of the quiche mold along with a dough rolled out thicker - at the bottom. Will definitely try that one along with less fat tomorrow and will let y'all know.

THANKS ALL AND MERRY....


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## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

How did it go? i hope it turned out better


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Much better. Will list the modified recipe and procedure for making the dough/crust only.

2C White Lily Bread flour (4g protein per serving)

2 OZ unsalted butter

>2 OZ lard

4-6 TBS ice water

1 tsp salt

Flour and salt mixed in mixing bowl.
Cold butter cut to the size of approx 1 cm cubes and placed into dry ingredients
Lard cut to approx 1 cm cubes and placed into dry ingredients
Mixture covered and frozen for one hour
Removed from the freezer, the fat was squished flat while working (incorporating) flour into the fat
Once fat was reduced to the size of peas, ICE water added 2 TBS at a time until the mixture stuck together while NOT being sticky.
Then fraisage: I took the heel of my hand and pressed a 2 inch section of the ball of dough FLAT. The same repeated for each 2 inch section until none remained.
Using a dough scraper, the flakey mixture was quickly gathered into a ball, placed between some plastic wrap and quickly flattened into a disc.
Some frank pieces of fat were noted, measuring about 1cm square.
The dough was refrigerated for one hour prior to rolling.
After one hour of refrigerated rest, the dough was placed onto a canvas cloth dusted with bread flour and rolled out while being dusted occasionally.
It was placed into a frozen quiche mold made by Fat Daddio's, pricked with a fork and frozen for an hour at least.
Prior to placing in the oven the dough was brushed with egg white that was beaten frothy, short of meringue.
The mold was then placed onto a preheated baking stone and prebaked 15 minutes at 425F and then removed from the oven in order to receive the filling
This recipe produced a much flakier dough but seemed a tiny bit soggy where it made contact with the filling. And this time there was neither leakage of either filling nor fat.

Whew!

EDIT: when rolling out the dough the portion of the dough that serves as the 'bottom' was rolled out thick, around an eighth of an inch thick.


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## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

NICE ONE!  i guess that's why my lecturer never even lets us use a food proccesor lol to make sure the fat is incoperated right she is a good teacher really, i would rather like to try using a food proccesor with sharp blades , like my mini one spins in a circle and the blade pretty much shreds anything to crumbs but not big enough to make dough for pies, it's alright for 100g of chocolate though or herbs, i feel like ones that just pulses don't really make the same effect as ones with the spinny blade in the middle, for sure the best type of proccesor to have.  What kind of pie did you make? the pastry would also be flaky according to what type of flour you use, i just use plane flour at college to make short crust pastry which makes a much sturdy pastry but i can tell your trying to be a bit more healthy with the pie, i feel bad when making the pies at college because my lecturer makes us add salt in pretty much everything, the pastry and the filling too and then they put more on thinking there is non in it :\, i usually don't add any salt in the filling but tell my lecturer i did lmao, i wanna stop killing people.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

emmbai90, if you do a little research you will discover that salt (NaCl) is an essential nutrient. As with almost everything, too much may be hazardous to your health. Conversely, too little may also be hazardous to your health.

Between the threshold of too little and too much, which happens to be a fairly wide range, a large majority of humans find that salt improves the eating experience by enhancing a variety of flavors in addition to being an essential component for preservation of a wide range of food products.

Reducing or eliminating salt is not automatically "good" nor is adding salt necessarily "bad". On the other hand, "balance" is almost universally good while imbalance is almost universally bad.


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## emmbai90 (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeh that's true, i wish they put signs up though saying salt is already in it, the pies are already salty from the cheese or stock cubes and gravy granulates then people eating them put more salt on top, it's one of those things that make me cringe so bad but i can't just come out and say that lol, i never put salt on pie or cheesy things as i know there is probably like 1 - 3 tea spoons of salt in the whole thing total especially pies you've added salt, granulates and stock cubes.


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi,

I always blind bake.

You often see even professional chefs roll out their dough, put it in the mould and pour in whatever filling.

This just makes for a soggy uncooked base. Horrible!!!

1. Which ever pastry I am making, savoury, or sweet, no matter, shape it into a disc and rest it in the fridge for at least one hour, wrapped in cling film.

(The secret with most pastries is to work it as little as possible. As soon as it comes together, STOP! It takes seconds only.)

2. I then roll out the cold dough, on a VERY lightly dusted surface. Keep turning it gently as you roll to make sure it does not stick.

Once it is roughly the right size, I cover it with baking paper. Turn it over and cover the bottom side with baking paper as well.

Back in the fridge for at least an hour on a flat baking sheet. You can even put it in the freezer for 15 minutes to speed up the process.

3. Now take out your cold disc, remove the baking paper from one side, let it soften up for a minute or two (to avoid cracks), and then when it is pliable, gently fold it into your mould or ring.

Really try to get the pastry down into the edges of your mould and up the sides, filling every part of it. Remove the baking paper and let the excess pastry flow over the edge of the mould, using your rolling pin all around the edge of the mould to cut away. (Keep those rolled out off cuts to make leaves, or hearts etc to decorate.)

4. Now put your mould back in the fridge for a good hour. (I do all this the day before and leave the filled mould in the fridge all night, but, that's me!) The actual doing parts does not take long!

5. Heat up the oven to 175/180c, take out your cold pastry shell, make a series of holes in the base with a fork, cover the base and sides tightly with silver foil and bake.

(No need to oil the foil, Butter will automatically seep out as the base cooks!)

Because your pastry shell is very cold, it will not shrink very much.

6. After 12 or 15 minutes, open the oven and gently remove the silver foil leaving the base exposed for another 10 minutes or so, to finish cooking.

If you want the base for a cold filling leave it to cook until golden.

7. Remove from the oven and place on a wire rack to cool.

8. After about five minutes cooling, beat half an egg white and brush this onto the cooling base and sides of your shell. The egg white will cook and seal the base. Cold fillings will not be able to soak into the base, which will remain nice and crunchy. Equally, if the base is for a quiche, just pour the filling in and bake for 25/30 mins as usual.

For perfect pastries every time, you can Google: Raymond Blanc, or Michel Roux senior, or Michel Roux junior, all French Michelin star chefs who have recipes on the net and who can be found on YouTube strutting their stuff. They are old school, using timeless classic recipes. If you follow their advice, you quite simply, can not go wrong.

One of my favourites is an Almond sweet paste for a Lemon, Lime and Basil cream recipe by Jacques Genin, one of Paris's star patissiers.

Google: Tarte au Citron de Genin, à la maison So Food So Good





  








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PS Any clever clogs out there know how to manage the photos. They are the right way up in the file and then decide to turn sideways in the post. Just glad my pastry does not do the same!!!


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

black dog said:


> ...
> Really try to get the pastry down into the edges of your mould and up the sides, filling every part of it. Remove the baking paper and let the excess pastry flow over the edge of the mould, using your rolling pin all around the edge of the mould to cut away. (Keep those rolled out off cuts to make leaves, or hearts etc to decorate.)
> 
> 4. Now put your mould back in the fridge for a good hour. (I do all this the day before and leave the filled mould in the fridge all night, but, that's me!) The actual doing parts does not take long!
> ...


When I bake a 9 incher, I always have, ready to load, smaller shells for the dough that's left over.

I've always had problems using foil, buttered and unbuttered, for lining the shell when blind baking. It sticks no matter what, tearing the partially baked shell when it's removed. There I've switched to using parchment paper to line my shells for blind baking. Never had a sticking problem since I switched.


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi,

Not sure why you're having difficulties with the foil. I never do. The pastry shell should leak out some butter during cooking, making removal easier, and I tend to use foil because it's easy to make a snug fit around your shell, which in turn, stops the sides from dropping in.

Parchment paper is great, but I find it difficult to make a nice tight fit. One thing I do is take the outside of a similar size mould, but upside down, and wrap the paper around it until it is a good circle about the same size and shape. Then I fill the paper with old apricot seeds, or better still a pile of small coins.

However, when you come to remove this after 15 minutes initial cooking, you have to move the tart shell out of the oven and mess about with the very hot seeds or coins which can be a pain.

It's a matter of personal preference I guess. What ever works for you.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

black dog said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not sure why you're having difficulties with the foil. I never do. The pastry shell should leak out some butter during cooking, making removal easier, and I tend to use foil because it's easy to make a snug fit around your shell, which in turn, stops the sides from dropping in.
> 
> ...


My shell leaks butter bigtime but that process is the key for a flakey crust; and, I place an additional piece of parchement underneath the mold, between the mold and the sheet pan that it sets in. That way cleanup of the sheet pan is much quicker and easier, there's less butter to wash away in the sink.

And I'll give the foil another try for blind baking.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

For regular forms with sloped walls, I don't use weight filled foil or parchment "packages" to bake blind.

Instead of fighting gravity, I use gravity.

I line out the form as usual, than stack another matching form on top of it. The dough is now "sandwiched" in between two forms

Now place this _*upside *_down on a tray and bake as per usual.

When cool, remove the top form.

Gravity will always pull the dough down, use it to your advantage.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

foodpump said:


> For regular forms with sloped walls, I don't use weight filled foil or parchment "packages" to bake blind.
> 
> Instead of fighting gravity, I use gravity.
> 
> ...


One of these days I'm gonna try your method, Foodpump.


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

To kokopuffs

Here are my recommended Ecole Ritz Escoffier Paris, recipes for "Sweet" Pàte à Foncer, and "Savoury" Pàte Brisée, pastries. I have used them dozens of times and always had superb results. No cutting corners. Follow the ingredients and methods and you'll be a very happy chappy.

*Pàte Brisée* is generally used *for **Savoury tarts and Quiche* etc Freezes well

It is usually made with water, but can be made with egg to advantage, as it will be more crumbly.

(If you are making a bigger tart, say 30cm, just increase all the ingredients by 1/3rd)

*Ingredients* for 250g of paste for a 20cm tart

125g flour type 55 (You can also experiment with a mix of 50% type 55 and 50% whole wheat flour type 80, or "all type 80 which makes really great quiches")

95g slightly softened unsalted butter cut in small pieces

30 to 40 ml v cold water or ½ a large egg lightly beaten

Pinch of salt

*Method:*

*In a mixer:* add all the ingredients except the water or egg.

Use a cold K beater to wizz the ingredients for a few seconds until they resemble crumbs.

Add the cold water, or lightly beaten egg, and wizz again for seconds only until you have a ball of paste. Stop the machine immediately.

*The secret is to work the paste as little as possible. *

Make a ball, flatten slightly, wrap in film and rest in the fridge for at least one hour.

If the pastry rests in the fridge for more than one hour, let it warm a little for 5 minutes before rolling out.

*By hand:* Run your hands under cold water to get them cold and dry them well. Mix the flour and salt and quickly work the butter in with your finger tips to get a nice pile of crumbs.

Add the cold water, or egg and work as little as possible until it comes together.

Make a ball, flatten slightly, wrap in film and rest in the fridge for at least one hour.

If the pastry rests in the fridge for more than one hour, let it warm a little for 5 minutes before rolling out.

*Pàte a Foncer* is used for *Patisserie (Sweet tarts) * Freezes well

*Ingredients *for 250g of paste for a 20cm tart

125g flour type 55 sieved

80g slightly softened unsalted butter cut in pieces

15g castor sugar

1/2 an egg lightly beaten

Pinch of salt

*Method:*

*In a mixer* Use the same method as for Pàte Brisee.

*By hand:*

On a clean dry surface, quickly work the pieces of butter with your finger tips, little by little into the sieved flour, to obtain crumbs. Make a circle in the middle of the crumbs, (a fountain), and mix the salt, the sugar, and the egg together in the center. Now gently bring the flour in from the edges in a circular motion, until more or less incorporated.

Gently squash the resulting paste down between the palm of your hand and the work surface and push it away from you a couple of times to bring it together and incorporate.

*Again the secret is to work the paste as little as possible.*

Make a ball, flatten slightly, wrap in film and rest in the fridge for one at least hour.

If the pastry rests in the fridge for more than one hour, let it warm a little for 5 minutes before rolling out.

Rolling out for both types. Use as little extra flour as possible.

On a very lightly floured surface, take the flattened paste and roll out, turning regularly so that it does not stick. Once it is the size you need, 2cm larger than the base and sides of the mould, brush off any excess flour and cover it on both sides with baking paper. Rest in the fridge one hour on a flat surface like a baking tray.

*Rolling out*

Remove from the fridge and allow to warm for a few minutes. When it is pliable, remove one side of the baking paper and gently fold the pastry in the mould. Gently lift the edge and using your other hand, bring the pastry to the edge and up the sides of the mould. Try to make sure it really fills the base and edges without stretching it. Remove the top baking paper, but keep it handy for the baking blind. Use a rolling pin on the edge of the mould cut the excess which can be used for mini tarts and barquettes. You can now use a fork to make a series of holes across the base, if desired.

I like to put the filled pastry mould back in the fridge to get really cold again. This really helps to stop shrinkage.

*Baking blind *

I really hate soggy bottoms (Unless I'm on the beach in Tortola!), so I always thoroughly bake the base blind, because, there is, to my way of thinking, nothing worse than doing all that work making great pastry and a beautiful filling and then ending up with a soggy undercooked tart base.

Heat the oven to 170c/180c Now cover the very cold pastry case with the baking paper and fill with dry beans, (or you can use foil, It should not stick!)

and very quickly put it in the oven.

Bake for 15 or so minutes and then remove the beans and baking paper, or foil.

Continue to bake until the base looks dry, or until the pastry is golden, as desired.

Take the base out of the oven and leave for 5 minutes on a rack to cool.

*Sealing the base:*

Beat half an egg white to a light mousse and brush it on the still hot pastry. It will cook and seal the base, ready for your filling.

Allow the pastry to cool completely before putting in your filling, if it is fruit, or a custard and fruit, or whatever. Make a light syrup, or melt some sort of appropriately flavoured jam to glaze the fruit and sear it under the grill before serving.

If you have a gas blow torch use that instead of the grill. I do love my power tools for cooking applications!

For quiche, don't put the filling in the pastry until the last moment when the oven is hot and you are ready to bake.

Crunchy base guaranteed, every time !!!

Good luck.

If I am still here, which is not at all certain, due to various difficulties that I have encountered with some members of this forum, I may post other tried and tested Escoff pastry recipes.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

@black dog, what is your background? Introduce yourself. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

You want to know my background? Really?

How long have you got?

OK here's The abridged version:

Hotel (4 star, of course, "They did not have 5 star in my day, but Hey!") and restaurant management, along with classical training in the kitchens with French and Italian chefs.

In those days we had a brigade of chefs. Hard, hot work. Brilliant fun. The beginning of my love affair with food.

Research diver and general Dog's body, for Imperial Chemical Industries, and the University of Cambridge Coral Marine Research Group, in Port Sudan, in the Red Sea.

Hard, hot work.

Brilliant fun and quite a lot of very very good Black and Brown Sudanese Bango, SO....Can't remember too much detail.

I'm a child of the 60's and you know what they say. "If you can remember the 60's, you weren't there!"

BUT... The Sudan was a truly wonderful place in those days, The Bread Basket of Africa, and those Eritrean girls? OMG...they were so so beautiful!  Those were the days!

Back to good Old Blighty! and so, more management in London, then into the project finance industry, basically all over the world, Russia, Far East, Africa, South America.

Still at it today, in a fairly relaxed fashion.

When I ain't werkin', I'sa cookin' , Yes Sir!, Cookin' up a storm. Or at least, TRYING to!  

If only I can get Achatz, Blumenthal, Roux, Herme, Michalak, Blanc, Escoff, Savarin and Careme etc etc to divulge their bloody secrets.

So, still alive and bashing along.

Come to think of it. Really not sure why I didn't go back to serious Hotels and Restaurants. I am bloody well obsessed with all things food these days.

As Head Chef Pietro Alzetta always used to say "Isa so funny, the life. Init?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I am quite enjoying the history of the black dog.

Maybe he can move his story to this [thread="79369"]New To Catering [/thread] thread which has become a (casual) repository for "back in the day" stories.

Looks like I may need to post again.

My last one left me sounding like a hooker in training (which was certainly not the case) lol.

mimi


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

OK Nicko,

Now I am really confused.

I've posted precise, tried and tested Ecole Escoffier Paris pastry recipes for kokopuffs.

He then asks me to say something about myself, which I did, briefly and hopefully wittily. It seems to have been appreciated.

What have I done wrong now?

Can you explain please? Thank you


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Nicko said:


> I am not liking how this discussion is going. Lets either tone it down folks or we will "lock it down".


??????????????????????????????????????????????


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

foodpump said:


> For regular forms with sloped walls, I don't use weight filled foil or parchment "packages" to bake blind.
> 
> Instead of fighting gravity, I use gravity.
> 
> ...


Alright, @foodpump, what do you do with the shells that have removeable bottoms? The shell that sets on the underside of the dough while baking, what happens with the removeable bottom disc as it will drop away from the dough and onto the sheetpan?


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Put it on the outside of the pan?


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## nicko (Oct 5, 2001)

My mistake all carry on. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

kokopuffs

I have tried to find out where the problem is, but I can't seem to get a reply. It really is confusing.

It can't possibly be my Escoffier pastry recipes can it?

So maybe it is my brief introduction and history which you asked for. Was there anything offensive in there. I don't think so. 

I am lost and I am finding it all rather exhausting to be honest.

Hope you like the recipes anywway.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

black dog said:


> kokopuffs
> 
> I have tried to find out where the problem is, but I can't seem to get a reply. It really is confusing.
> 
> ...


Not a problem with me!


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

Seems to be OK now;


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

I am with Kuan.
The pop out bottom would have to be small enuf that the potiental for tearing of the dough is moot.
If it is not maybe switch for the bottom of a smaller pan?

mimi


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## black dog (Mar 26, 2014)

flip, kuan, foodpump, Hello all

I have seen famous French patissieres do this with the smaller tartelettes i.e. plain and fluted round and barquette individual metal moulds. (They normally have a sort of brown non-stick coating).

As pump says you roll out your paste as per usual and fill the little individual metal moulds.

Assuming you have a few extra moulds, you just take an empty one and place it on/in the filled mould.

You now have a barquette filled with paste and the second identical mould inside/on top of that like a sandwich. They then refrigerate them to get them very cold.

They then just blind bake at about 170c as normal, meaning the right way up rather than upside down, removing the top mould after about 10 mins allowing the case to dry and colour a bit.

You are using the second metal barquette to hold your pastry in place, (and stop it puffing up too much), instead of the usual foil or bean filled baking paper, while it cooks,

Seems to work fine for them.

As to blind baking a large tart case with another tart case inside and upside down, Interesting concept. Never tried it. **** Anyway, I only have two loose bottom tart moulds, one 20cm and the other 30cm.

Don't see why the removable bottom would have sticking issues, because most of these recipes have pretty high butter to flour ratios ( the Ecole Escoffe Paris recipes I posted above are around 70% butter to flour), and anyway, you want to lightly butter your moulds before you fill, even if they are non stick.

All these high butter recipes mean that butter seeps out as the case cooks, so there should be no sticking.

In France and especially Brittany where I am at present, they say there are three important ingredients in great pastry. Butter....Butter....and... Butter. Just don't be on a diet!

In the Escoff recipes I use, I fill the mould and get it very cold in the fridge before I blind bake. This really does limit shrinkage issues and I think cold pastry is key. The fact that there is still some shrinkage makes it easy to unmould after cooking.

I'm no expert, but Jacques Genin, for example, has one of the very best, and bloody expensive!!! pastries/cake/chocolate shops in Paris. His stuff is wonderful, and there is usually a long queue outside the door. So I follow his methods and my results are pretty good. 

One thing about foodpumps method. I am wondering about gravity causing the butter that seeps out to run down the sides of the case. If, being upside down, the pastry case is covered by the second mould, how do you remove it after 15 mins in order to let it dry and colour during the final 10 mins of cooking???

Interesting idea.


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