# Intro into higher quality Kitchen knives



## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Me and the better half are looking at getting a little more into cooking at home and want to upgrade our current knife set. Have been looking around locally and finding the normal name brands Henckels, Wusthof, Global, Mac, etc. From all the reading I have been doing I know the Fujiwara FKM/Tojiro DP are all supposed to be great knives but I have a hard time pulling the trigger since we cannot handel them. Out of all the ones that we could handle she liked the Wusthof Culinar and Shum Premier the best (how it felt in hand) but have been hearing more negative reviews on shuns vs good. Mainly the blade profile/chipping. I didn't mind the Mac Pro and based on the reviews I read the Tojiro DP is pretty close to this minus the price tag. Just curious if anyone has other advice or suggestions on what to look into / type of knives to get us started.

*Chef Skills*: Not a chef, home cook looking at upgrading current department store block set - pinch grip

*Types of Food*: Preping veggies/potatoes/yams/chicken,etc

*Knife Style / Steel:* Gyoto/Utility/Paring - Stainless

_*Performance*_: Decently sharp - doesn't need to be the sharpest out there. Small/Medium hands, used to german knives but want to move into something on the lighter side. ambidextrous

_*Sharpening Skills*_: Have some experience with my spyderco sharpmaker on my EDC/Camping knives but none on japenease blades.

Would purchase a ceramin rod for honing and may send out once a year depending how I do with the sharpmaker.

_*F&F, Looks*_: Prefer a decent F&F but would like a good preformer vs looks

_*Price Range*_: Hoping to spend around 300 or so on a chef/utility/pearing combo with a ceramic rod. Maybe throw in another knife or cutting board,etc if any left over.

Appreciate all your help!


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

I should also add that she prefers rock/tap/cross chopping vs push slice


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

This horrid site word processor just deleted a relatively long message on me. I have to give up and just say that if your wife likes the German profile, and the feel of them, then get the Shun, as you won't duplicate it in any real Japanese knives, and I have heard from knowledgeable folk that the HT is not so bad anymore. Avoid their sharpening service, and get a course stone for thinning.

Also, there are some Japanese knives that have a continuos, though very gentle, belly curve, like the Takamura Migaki.

And even though I have given up actively bashing Shun, I do have to post this link to a Comment Millions made:

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/67535/are-shun-knives-really-worth-the-price/90#post_522812

Rick


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Hehe I do like the shun blue steel series, but hate all their vg10. I thinned, etched, sharpened, a shun premier last week. Honestly not worth the time and effort. At the end of the day, it is still just a polished turd. Usable but never great.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

It sounds to me like Shun fits the described needs and desires. The only disappointment you may have is that when they are sharp, they are very sharp. My situation is similar and I've been quite satisfied. I also ha used the sharpening service Shun recommended during had time they abandon their service. Never a problem and I've had no need for thinning in a typical home kitchen application. If you want to try a nearly identical performer at lower price, Williams Sonoma now has the Claasic 8-inch chef at $99. In terms of looks they are diff but both perform identically.


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

MillionsKnives said:


> Hehe I do like the shun blue steel series, but hate all their vg10. I thinned, etched, sharpened, a shun premier last week. Honestly not worth the time and effort. At the end of the day, it is still just a polished turd. Usable but never great.


Through your experience is there any you could suggest that would feel similar or more suited for her style of cutting?

Really appreciate the responces.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

To start, the Takamura is vastly superior in every respect.  It is a very thin knife though and is best not used on things like squash.  Though some folks do that and get away with it, often times that will mean chips, big ones.  And definitely no cutting around bones or through frozen stuff.  But you already have "beater" knives for that.  I knife like that also wants a decent wood board, ie, no bamboo, teak or acacia, but rather maple, cherry, walnut, mahogany, oak.  End grain is best, but edge grain works also.  That or a high-end synthetic like the HighSoft. These would be best for VG-10 also.

In the sharpening category, big drawback to VG-10 is that it is one of the most difficult steels to sharpen well, forms a tenacious burr that is time consuming to remove and also difficult to deal with for beginners.  Your sharpmaker may actually work pretty well here if you alternate sides with each stroke.

Wusthof steel is just ordinary German stainless, very mediocre stuff, but Wusthof is a little better than the the other Germans as they harden it a little more.  So it takes a bit of a sharper edge than its other luntsmans and holds it a little better, still pretty unexceptional stuff though, but like other ordinary stainless it is relatively tough. The Ikon series is nicely made and relatively thin for a German.

Rick


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)




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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Dan, the $99 price on Shun Classic 8-inch chef is in the Catalogue and Amazon too.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You can sharpen the Takamura to any angle you want, within reason.  Though adding a microbevel will greatly enhance edge holding and help against microchipping with only a small sacrifice in performance.  One pass on each side at your 20deg setting.  It sharpens much easier than ZDP-189, go with minimal pressure.

I believe you would be more than thrilled with what your 15 setting will give you with this knife, even with a pass at 20deg added.  It's a very fine-grained steel with a very good HT, on top of being very thin at the edge.

If you go the Takamura route, or any knife similar to it, try it at 15 but I would have you consider maybe going then to sharpening at 20 to begin regular use with as a personal safety precaution.

Rick


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Brian - The deal that the local supplier has is on the Premier vs the Classic - not sure what the main difference is besides handle. 

Rick - that sounds great thank you. Did some more reading on wetstones and looks like a King 1000/6000 is the way to go to get my feet wet. Add a binder clip to help with muscle memory if needed. I just wish someone locally had these Japanese knives for us to hold and try.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

One look and you'll see that the blades are different but with the same core and performance, in my experience. Handles are different for sure. Classic blade is the "faux Damascas" and Premiere is similar but shinier and hammered. If appearance means anything then let me say that the Premier gets more of a "wow" reaction than the Classic. 

The $99 deal is also at Sur la table, if you are interested.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't know where you are located, but I agree with the sentiment of wanting to see and touch before committing. Where I live I am blessed to be able to see a lot of them.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I personally think "feel" is greatly overrated for the home cook, something more important to the pro who has to put in many hours daily with knives.  I count profile, edge properties and lightness high above more ethereal considerations of feel.  Now gloves, which I was picking out the other day, well that's something else.  

Rick


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Where I am located there are only two main stores in the city that carry the following brands:

Global

KAI

Kasumi

Miyabi

SHUN

Victorinox

MAC

Wusthof

Zwilling J.A. Henckel

Thats basically all I can see/feel in person. 

I see your point Rick since the amount of time spent with the knife for an in home cook vs professional chef is vastly different. Our thoughts are the better it feels in hand the more likely she/we will enjoy it = more often


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick has a good point, of course, but there also is a concern many have (me included to the point of calling it an aversion some times) of making sizable commitment to something sight unseen. Mail order brides come to mind first, followed by chef knives.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

... And, DanHam, I totally relate with your comment that the better it feels in your hand will affect your enjoyment. It does for me.


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Its a tough call and after talking to my aunt and cousin who are both Chefs they have their own opinions as well. One loves Globals and the other Heckels. I guess it boils back down to whatever works best for you and the only real way to find it is to buy it and use it for some time. I can see a knife collection in the near future LOL

To me it sounds like we both have styles that would suite a german or shun blade profile (Or as Rick mentioned something like the Takamura). 

If it was down to the Wusthof or Shun - how would you compare those two? Edge Retention/Sharpenss/Easy of Maintenance/Amount of abuse.

From what I'm reading it sounds like the Shun will be able to hold a better edge but possibility of chipping and will need to be cared for a little more then the Wusthof. The finish looks really good but I could see this changing as it gets used.

The Wusthof is a softer steel but assuming its a 20* angle so may need some attention slightly quicker then the shun. A little heaftier and it wouldn't be the end of the world if for whatever reason she forgets to wash or dry it right away. 

Over thinking it??? LOL


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I would take shun over wusthof. My problem with shun is that they are fat. I can get over annoying vg10 sharpening. I just dont care for the cutting performance at all.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Yes, overthinking. . You need both, of course. The chipping thing has not been my experience over the past 6 years of Shun usage. Except for the time I dropped on onto ceramic tile. For heavy work I use Henckels or another heavier knife instead of Shun to ensure the blade edge isn't torqued.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I wonder

An 8" Ikon weighs a whopping 9oz with an up-front skinny handle, hefty in comparison to any similar Japanese knife.  An 8.25" Migaki weighs 5.2oz, has a more conventionally shaped but still slender handle.  Both I believe have a fairly neutral balance.  We already know which cuts better, which do you think is going to feel better?

Rick


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Huh, I knew the 9" slicer to be handle heavy, but thought that stout blade of the chefs would balance things more.

Handle-heavy is definitely a plus on a survival knife, less chance of it falling out of your hand.

Rick


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Took a better look at the Migaki and boy does that look like one sweet knife! I also found a online retailer in Canada that has them for $200 cdn ($150usd) which isn't too too bad at all.

Originally we were thinking around $400 for chef or gyuto / ceramic rod / proper cutting board / paring or utility knife / steak knives / and now will add in a King 1000/6000 wet stone. 

I'm thinking this budget might get busted lol

$200 Gyuto

$40 Idahone

$60? for cutting board

$100 paring/utility

$60 steak knives

$60 wet stone

Wondering if a strop kit would also be wise. Might need to drop the paring/utility knife for the time being.

Could use this to sharpen up all other from the Sabatier set we have. Have some little rust spots forming on them that I'll need to look after.

Or.....just buy an Idahone/Wetstone/Strop kit and mess around with our current set.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

A set of carbon Sabatiers, didn't expect to hear that.  It would be nice if you could put up a picture so we can see what shape they're in.

I myself decided against getting into stopping for now.  It's really just for getting a blade that will not see any significant board contact insane sharp, because as soon as you wack it on the board it will be much like what it would have been coming off a 6K stone.  Finishing with a few stropping strokes on a 6K stone will leave quite a fine edge on carbon steel and the harder varieties of stainless that are in the 60RC+ range.  Good enough to cut <1mm slices of onion.

Rick


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

If you have decent condition carbon steel Sabatiers (which brand, might I ask?), then I would strongly suggest you first concentrate on developing sharpening skills.

Here's a very good tutorial by Chad Ward: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

And here are excellent videos on sharpening by Jon Broida: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

By all means, get a fine grit Idahone, the longest you can get (up to 12 inches, or 30 cm).

And the King combo stone will also work well, as long as it is at least 8 inches - 205 mm - in length, and a minimum of 2 inches - 50 mm - in width; though bigger is better when it comes to stone size.

As for a cutting board, an end-grain hardwood board.at least 30 cm deep (12 inches) by 45 cm long (18 inches) by 5 cm thick (2 inches). I don't know what boards are marketed in Canada, but something in hard Northern maple would fit the bill nicely. Be sure to slather and saturate it in mineral oil before first use (and before first contact with water).

I would do that before getting any additional cutlery, if I had decent carbon Sabatiers.

Galley Swiller


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

They might not necessarily need to be thinned, if they are anything like many carbon steel knives I've seen that ended up in people's drawers.  It all depends on the amount of use and how or how much they were sharpened.

Many people with carbon steel blades just didn't like the look that the blades developed and after a very short while, just put them away in a cupboard or some deep storage.  If they were then not heavily used or heavily sharpened, then resurrecting them might not need thinning - just sharpening and a wee bit of removal of red or orange rust (but leaving on the good black/brown patina).

GS


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Rick Alan said:


> A set of carbon Sabatiers, didn't expect to hear that. It would be nice if you could put up a picture so we can see what shape they're in.
> 
> I myself decided against getting into stopping for now. It's really just for getting a blade that will not see any significant board contact insane sharp, because as soon as you wack it on the board it will be much like what it would have been coming off a 6K stone. Finishing with a few stropping strokes on a 6K stone will leave quite a fine edge on carbon steel and the harder varieties of stainless that are in the 60RC+ range. Good enough to cut <1mm slices of onion.


I don't have access to the knives right now as they are in storage - between houses. I believe they are forged stainless and the brand is Sabatier. They were purchased at a big box store here in Canada as a set. My guess is not the Sabatier type of knife you are referring to. Makes sense on the stropping though - especially if we are going to be doing more chopping vs slicing. 


Galley Swiller said:


> If you have decent condition carbon steel Sabatiers (which brand, might I ask?), then I would strongly suggest you first concentrate on developing sharpening skills.
> 
> Here's a very good tutorial by Chad Ward: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links! I just started watching the videos from Jon actually and am finding them very informative.

The dimensions of the stone is 7.25 x 2.5 x 1.0 inches so it is a little under the 8" recommondation.

I'll see if I can locate a maple cutting board locally here (do some calling tomorrow). The one shop is trying to push the Epicurean cutting boards, any experience?

Appreciate all the tips everyone!

Even though the set we have probably isn't what everyone was thinking I do plan to sharpen them up/clean/etc and have for a beater set as mentioned above. Get a decent Gyuto and then slowly add to it as needed and as we both get more in touch with what we want/need.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If you search amazon you can sometimes find them but a full sized combi stone is not so common and often costs a lot more.  I was once clueless enough to by a Shun stone'nsteel set, so I can say that the smallish combi works fine enough, though you'd find the bigger stone easier to use.

If those are stainless Sabatier and not carbon then they're not so precious, but good trainer knives anyway.  Being stainless they could still have some rust spots on them if they were stored in a poor way, but you wouldn't see any dark patina.

Rick


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

The Shun stone ain't bad at all. If one can't sharpen with an 8-inch stone then one might not be able to sharpen any better with a 12-inch stone. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/lookaround.gif

The steel, though... even I wonders why the Shun folks did that. That defies all normal logic.


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

There is one made by King with the following dimensions - 

2-1/8 x 8-1/2 x 7/8 inch overall size
Longer but narrower.

I think i'll try cleaning up the current set and seeing what kind of edge I can get on them. After all the help and suggestions if and when we do get a new blade it would be the Migaki. I'll just need to find a different gift to buy now LOL

Thanks for everyones help - greatly appreciated.


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

The Epicurean boards I know of are glued together wood particulate sheets.  Stay away from them.  They will dull your knife's edge almost as fast as glass or metal.

GS


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## danham (Dec 4, 2015)

Galley Swiller said:


> The Epicurean boards I know of are glued together wood particulate sheets. Stay away from them. They will dull your knife's edge almost as fast as glass or metal.
> 
> GS


Thanks GS - I was able to find a decent maple cutting board locally.

The retailer that I found the Takamura suggested the Shapton glass sharping set 500/2k/16k stones. They look unreal and take alot of material off per stoke but I'm not sure its justifiable for a home cook. At 399 cdn its a decent investment.

Any thoughts on this?

I know I mentioned I would stick with what we have but the lure of a new knife is hard to drop, plus it would make a great gift.

Thank you


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

New thread...


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## mojak (Dec 17, 2015)

New thread...


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