# Growing herbs indoors



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I'm interested in growing herbs indoors. There was another thread just started here about growing herbs, and it started to go into growing them year-round indoors. I thought that topic was worth a new thread. KYHeirloomer had some great info, and I'm not very experienced with that.

Any suggestions on starting an indoor garden for herbs or other edible plants?


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## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

KYHeirloomer said, regarding lighting for growing indoors, "Artificial light really makes more sense; both for over-winter growing and for starting garden plants in the spring. 

All you need is a pair of standard, cold-white flurescent bulbs. There is no need to spend the extra money on either soft white bulbs or grow lights. All they bring to the table is the addition of red-spectrum light. 

Red is important for ripening fruit. But it serves no function when growing foliage. BTW, if you have enough room for additional lights, you can grow lettuces and other greens indoors over winter, using the same set-up."


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Let me just add that either the lights or the shelves supporting the plants, must be adjustible. Key to the whole thing is keeping the lights within a couple of inches of the growing plants.

Simplest way is to hang the light fixture off of chains, using S hooks. As the plants grow you just raise the light appropriately.

But what if you're growing them in the living room? Or someplace where the aesthetics are important. Maybe try this:

Get one of those cheapie book cases with adjustible shelves. Paint or stain it to fit the decor. Then mount the light fixture to the inside of the top. Plants go on a shelf, which you can then move as necessary.


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## herbgarden (Oct 20, 2009)

Making an indoor garden for your herbs is possible. A lot of people are doing it today especially when cold season gets in. Although the only thing is, it's a little bit difficult compared to the outdoor gardening. But there are some few tips you could read for you to learn how to grow your favorite herbs indoors. It has been a great help for me through web advices of herb garden online. basic-herb-garden.com


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## blackbirdpies (Dec 12, 2009)

KYHeirloomer, sorry i'm rather dense and need explicit directions. so by a couple of inches, do you mean 2-3 or more 6-7 or does it matter? 

also, is this light on 24-7 or are you simulating the sun and turning it off when the sun goes down? 

and you mentioned placing it into a bookshelf. is it necessary to place it into an enclosed space or are you just recommending that for aesthetic sake?

thank you for your guidance. i'm completely new to this so need to ask stupid questions. 

blackbirdpies


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## kevin20422 (Dec 7, 2009)

I am getting into this too and my best shot at an answer would be that it is pretty close to 2 or 3 inches and not 6 or 7. I would say the enclosed bookshelf is just for looks and I am not sure about the light but many other sites could answer that.

That Heirloomer member has been enormous help to me so I am glad he/she is active in this dept too.

I am excited about starting basil now and it will go hand in hand with my new cooking hobby and my job as grocery checker too.

This department needs some life, your post is two weeks old.

Start me up.


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

There are a lot of considerations to indoor greenhouse growing of herbs, etc.

Lighting spectrum has some impact as already pointed out.

Also, the intensity of the light determines the distance in combination with the lighting requirements of the particular herb or plant you're trying to grow (think shade, part shade, full sunlight).

Best thing I ever did was visit Klima-Gro ... the intelligent indoor greenhouse. and buy their Classic and Majestic indoor greenhouses.

They use bulbs that simulate sunlight. They have built in timers. To prevent flowering, the light should be on about 18 hours/day. To induce flowering, reduce lighting to 12 hours/day.

They have built in heaters in the dirt and a built-in temperature meter to tell you what the bed temp is. They have a moisture sensing wand attached to a panel meter, so you can test for proper moisture content (read: cactii favor drier bed than basil or rosemary, for instance).

They have adjustable shelves.

They have auto safety glass sliding windows, top and sides.

They have built in fans for air circulation.

They're beautiful to behold.

They work.

I grow anything I need for cooking in them, practically. Full size tomatoes are tricky, though! 

I've had mine for years now, and they also are nice early morning night lights as they span the 18 hour time period, which means they come on before I get up, so I can see without searching for a light switch.

They're totally self-contained, and I've seen them in institutional settings where they had butterflies living in them, or cactii, or even a plethora of compatible small creatures, besides being primarily intended as all year indoor greenhouses.

They're also self draining.

doc


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

My apologies, BlackBirdPies. I somehow missed your post when it went up.

To answer your questions:

Plants such as we're talking require a minimum of 6 hours of sunlight/day. More is, obviously, better. But you can get carried away with that. And they do need a dark period.

I treat indoor herbs as if they were seedlings. Which means I provide 16 hours of light per day. There are inexpensive timers you can get at any hardware store for controling that.

Distance above the plants is 1-3 inches. It's not always feasible to achieve that, but that's the range to shoot for. Six inches is far too distant with standard flurescent bulbs. 

You most definately do not need to enclose them---although that's sometimes beneficial from a warmth viewpoint. Use of a bookcase is for aesthetic reasons; most people like their "greenhouse" to look nice if it's on display all the time. 

On the other hand, my grow stand is something I designed and build from PVC tubing. It has four shelves, each with its own lightsource, and the lights are fully adjustible as to height. I can accomodate up to four standard size plant trays on each shelf. 

In all due respect to DeltaDoc, extensive (not to mention expensive) rigs such as the Klima-Gro units are far beyond the needs of most people, especially those just looking to grow a few kitchen herbs over the winter. 

Their features are also overkill in many instances. For example, there are few times when you actually have to heat the soil (starting peppers from seed is one example where it is beneficial). So why pay for that feature, when there are less expensive alternatives? And, unless your intention is actually growing vegetables, use of sun-equivalent lights is a ridiculously expensive affectation. You do not, repeat, not, even need full spectrum flurescent bulbs for seed starting and foliage growth, let alone ag lights. And purchasing ag lights, nowadays, is a real hassle because of their use by pot growers. In some jurisdictions there sale is controlled at closely as firearms sales.


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

Just a few clarifications here. If you are truly into cooking and want flavorful herbs, you need to grow them in as ideal environmental conditions as possible. The money I've saved buying small batches of fresh herbs at the store has already paid for my two Klimagros, and the herbs I grow taste far superior to ones I used to grow under standard white fluorescent bulbs, so I'm speaking from personal observation and experience.

With the smaller Classic sitting in my kitchen's garden window, and with Minnesota temperatures outside hovering between -15 F and -10 F the past few days, the heated bed certainly counters the cold in that window despite the windows extensive insulation. In summer, of course, you don't need the heater and since it is adjustable from off to 80 or 90 F, you can adjust it to the situation.

Also, the units use fluorescent bulbs, the Classic using standard dimensional long cylindrical tubes that fit any standard fluorescent fixture, they're just special spectrum lights that mimic the sun's natural spectrum. The Majestic uses fluorescent U-shaped bulbs that look a lot like some of these Energy star bulbs that the local power company tries to sell to people to save money, except they "plug-in" rather than "screw-in". These are definitely not High Pressure Sodium 400 watt (or higher) agricultural "pot growing" bulbs. 

With all due respect,
doc


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## kcz (Dec 14, 2006)

Speaking as someone with zero gardening talent, I've been ecstatic to be able to grow herbs, as well as lettuce, in a couple of Aerogardens. They're pretty foolproof (hence my success) and nowhere near as expensive as deltadoc's setup. I've had better luck with some herbs (basil, dill, thyme, chives) than others (cilantro, parsley). This is the second winter that I haven't bought any lettuce from the supermarket.


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

I remember seeing somewhere on youtube where a guy made a self wattering pot.

all there was is a 2 liter pop bottle and a piece of cloth
cut the top off and place it upside down inside the bottle. the bottom will be willed with water while the top is filled with soil and the cloth tied with a knot is on the bottom of the top part touching the water which pulls up the water by capillary action.

I'm thinking of placing a lamp over it . over night then turn it off when I wake up. 

@ delta 
which KG did you buy? I 'm looking at the main site and the cheapest is 600 bucks


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

The Classic and the 4' high Majestic. I think overall I am most impressed by the smaller Classic, but they're both very nice.

doc


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_I 'm looking at the main site and the cheapest is 600 bucks  _

Not only expensive, gNairdA, but kind of small.

The 600 dollar unit has a growing area about the size of two standard garden trays---486 square inches vs. 231 each for the trays. But you can buy the trays for about a buck 88 each. Closer to three dollars if you get the ones with the clear plastic domes.

To put it in perspective, if you wanted all the features of that unit, you could assemble them (excluding the glass enclosure) for less than $75

When I built my PVC grow stand it cost less than $100. I can fit as many as four trays on each shelf (a total of 16---yielding 25.6 square _feet _of growing space). The whole unit takes up only 2 x 5 feet of floor space. The cost of construction includes the PVC tubing, four sets of lights, timers, and trays.

I have a few heating mats the rare times they are needed. I got them for free, but they run about $10-27 per, depending on size and brand. And you can buy special wicking mats that give you a water-on-demand set up for less than ten bucks if you're too lazy to water properly.

Now then, a word about heating. There are very few seeds that need heated soil to get started. In those cases, you can use a heat mat. Or even an old heating pad. Once the seeds germinate bottom heat is unnecessary, and sometimes counterproductive.

If you're growing within your living quarters, it will never get cold enough to impact the plants. Most of my herbs are still outdoors, after several hard frosts and snowstorms, and still doing just fine. They're a lot hardier than many people realize. Usually, the really tender ones are annuals, such as basil, and some perennials like tarragon.

If you set up your grow area where it gets cold---in the basement, say, or out on an enclosed porch, and warmth is a real problem, you can merely set up a tent-like covering out of clear plastic. That will provide all the protection they need. If extra heat truly is needed, enclose a low-wattage lightbulb (like 15 watts) in the tent.

As to lighting: Full spectrum bulbs are only required if you are growing fruits and veggies. The red end of the spectrum is required for fruit ripening. For foliage along, such as herb growing, it's totally unnecessary.

Everyone has to make their own choices, of course. If you have the money, and like the idea of one of those greenhouses, I have no argument with you. But I just don't see the value of them merely to grow a few herbs---or, frankly, for much else either.


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## kevin20422 (Dec 7, 2009)

I spent $13 for a tray, seed beds, starter soil and seeds. I had a light and just used an old storage shelf. I have them on about 18 hours with plastic over them.

I just used one third of a tray so I can start more in a while.

It is fun to have it up and running with a timer.

They say the return on investment with basil is 500,000 to one.

Thanks


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_They say the return on investment with basil is 500,000 to one.
_
And that's just the first year, Kevin. If you let some of the basil go to seed, and replant it, you're talking virtually no cost.

Of course, you can say the same thing about any plant from which you save seed---one of the many reasons to choose heirloom and open polinated varities when you plant veggies.

You want to talk return on investment, Kevin, try growing garlic.

If you pay top dollar---about $15/lb for "gourmet" garlic---the bulbs you produce the third year are virtually free. And free ever after that. Which is why I have little patience with people who complain about the cost of garlic "seed." It's a one-time expense.


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## deltadoc (Aug 15, 2004)

Well, I don't know about the red spectrum only for fruits and veggies. The red spectrum dominates near the end of a growing season because of the lower altitude of the sun. At the beginning of a growing season, at least here in the upper midwest, the blue spectrum tends to be stronger. Even herbs flower and produce seeds, not just fruits and veggies.

More importantly, in my humble experience, the hours the lights are on have way more to do with it. 18 hours prevents flowering, and I've got rosemary that has been growing 2 years or more without flowering. 12 hours stimulates the plants to start preparing to propagate themselves out of a innate sense of self perpetuance. That is part of what stimulates any plant to start flowering producing fruit or seeds.

Anyway, I had a bit of trouble assembling the big Majestic (it turns out I found a small error in one of the pictures in the assembly manual) and the owner of Klimagro flew up from Florida and helped me finish the assembly at no charge to me. Now that is service.

ALso, the glass enclosures keep the cat out from ruining my plants cause she's so attracted to them!~

ANd if you have a garden window sticking out the side of your house, even though there is usually a deep box situated under the garden window filled with insulation, and even though the garden window is fully exposed to my interior, that countertop in the window is ice cold. Heating the dirt bed counteracts the cold that the Klimagro unit is sitting on, thus ending up with suitable temperature for the plants roots to keep the plant alive. Pots originally set in the window before I ever bought these indoor greenhouses died within a couple of weeks due to the cold of Minnesota in the winter.

So, like Forest Gump, "And thats all I got to say about that!". 

Pax,
doc


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I think you're missing the point, Doc. 

The only function of the red spectrum, so far as plants are concerned, is promoting ripening. 

Keep in mind that during daylight there is always some of the complete spectrum available. Sure, the blue end might predominate earlier in the season. But that doesn't mean red is absent. That's why tomatoes, for example, ripen all through the season. They wouldn't if the red spectrum was entirely missing. It's also why there is some evidence (although the jury is still out on this) that red mulch can hasten ripening. 

There is also the question of day-length sensitivity. All vegetables are subject to this, some much more than others. As a group, for instance, the alliums, particularly onions, are very day-length sensitive. And that can affect whether, and when, the plant ripens. 

But none of this has anything to do with growing foliage indoors---which is what herb growing is all about. All other things being equal, cool-white bulbs will result in the same size, fullness, and health of plants as any other light source. 

On the other hand, if I wanted to grow edible blossoms like chive flowers, then I'd opt for full-spectrum bulbs. 

You seem to think I'm attacking your use of those greenhouses. Such is not the case. My only objection to them is their ridiculous cost, and the fact that many of their features are unnecessary for the purpose we've been discussing. 

FWIW: If the countertop in your window bay is that cold, I would suspect it's having a serious effect on your heating bills.


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

you just got me totally interested :roll:

If you dont mind can you provide me to a link on how its built . or if its your own invention some pics? I'm a total noob on building.

What have you grown? ginger?onions? Do you notice the cost of electricity go up a lot?


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Wish I could help, but I don't use a digital camera, so have no pix to post. 

This particular model is my own design. But working with PVC is relatively easy: it's all standard sizes and standard connectors.

The trick is to lay out the pattern ahead of time, to be sure of getting the right number of connectors, and the right ones to begin with. For instance, for a multi-shelf stand you need four-way connectors for the uprights and shelves. Each crosspiece on a shelf requires at least two connectors. And so forth. 

For PVC up to 1 1/2" diameter they make cutters that resemble pruning shears. So you don't even need a saw. Line up the blade, squeeze the handle, and there you go: a perfect cut every time. Slap on cement, push the parts together, and that's that. 

The other question you have to answer is whether you want the unit to be permanently cemented together, or to have a take-down design. If take down, give some thought to which pieces have to be cemented, and which are just friction-fit. 

My stand was originally designed for seed starting; of which I do a lot, because I used to sell heirloom vegetable plants. Later I realized I could use it for a "winter crop." For that I've grown herbs, various micro-greens (lettuces, spinach, arugala, mache, sorrel) and root veggies (turnips, beets) for their tops. 

And I've used it for alliums, but, obviously, not for the bulbs. But green onions, green garlic, baby leeks, etc. are a snap with this kind of set up. Because they root more deeply, I used window boxes rather than plant trays, for those. 

While I haven't personally done so, I know people who have grown carrots and radishes under lights, using a similar home-made rig.


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## kevin20422 (Dec 7, 2009)

I have flor lights on about 4 am and off at 11pm approx. I want to sync flor lights with sun for most of the time. 19 hours is about what they get now at about 2-3". I think bulbs (2) are cool white not sure.

Time sound right.

Man I wish garlic seed was not so expensive. LOL

Flor = florescent

Not sure of spellling


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

is it similar to this?
How to grow cabbages in a PVC pipe - Go Green - SustainLane


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

No, mine is nothing like that.

What you linked to is a planter made out of pipe.

What I have is a set of shelves, made of PVC, that, in turn, support garden trays and hanging lights.

Imagine a bookcase made out of PVC instead of wood, and you'll have a better mental image of what I'm talking about. The lights hang, on chains, from the underside of each shelf, and the trays rest on the topside of them.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Several comments about the project you linked to.

First off, and most important, is that it's one of those make-believe going green things. If you happened to have 5" or larger pipe laying around, then it makes sense. If you have to purchase it, however, it is cheaper for you to buy window-box type planters. Large diameter PVC is a lot of things, but cheap ain't one of them. 

(and, btw, off the top of my head I can think of at least two ways of sealing the ends that would make for a sturdier, more secure unit)

Next: A rig like that is fine for seed starting. Or even most herbs. But if you really think you can grow cabbages to fruition in such a shallow container, as the headline implies, good luck to you. It ain't gonna happen.

If you do build a unit like this, keep in mind you have to put it in the basement, garage, laundry room, or enclosed porch. Something like that, because drainage is direct. Excess moisture leaves the unit by dripping (well, oozing, actually) on the floor---not the sort of thing you want in a spare bedroom.

Next, you still have to worry about lighting, something that, apparently, didn't concern the author. 

Don't get me wrong. I can see many uses for that kind of planter. But I don't think it's right for most of us involved in this discussion.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Well, you sparked some interest in a search. I googled PVC Pland Stand, and the first hit is T's Flowers--Make your own lighted floral plant stand.

This is very similar to the one I built. The major difference is that my shelves are less open. I have a central longitundinal crosspiece, in addition to the two long sides.

All in all, however, this link should give you the idea.


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## blackbirdpies (Dec 12, 2009)

thank you kevin20422 for reviving this thread. a slew of new information came out of it. probably going the DIY route, as beautiful as the Klima-Grow and AeroGarden look. so...hehe...will be coming back for more questions. 

thank you all!


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## ritzy (Jan 18, 2010)

Funny you should ask this. I recently moved into a small flat, and I love cooking and having fresh herbs to hand, at all times. I live in Spain, so even the temperatures lend themselves to year round fresh herbs. Anyway I found this great page of how to grow herbs indoors.

How To Grow An Indoor Herb Garden :thumb:

Hope this helps you, it certainly helped me.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Nice site, Ritzy. Thanks for posting it.


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## gnnairda (Aug 7, 2009)

After a lot of searching I came to the conclusion that I will choose Deep water culture system.
YouTube - Homemade hydroponics - How to make a deep water culture (DWC) system


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## kevin20422 (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks to all the members for their replies.

I am the proud father of about 12 little basils now with leaves the size of one of the little emoticons to the right. They get about 18 hrs light and I dont worry about correlating that to the sunrise as they are in a room with little natural light.


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Good on you, Kevin!eace:

See, I told ya it wasn't all that hard.


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## lindat (Nov 11, 2006)

I live about a mile high, where there is lots of snow and sub zero temps in winter. I grow a surprising amount of basil, parsley and thyme on the small shelf between my kitchen faucet and an old double pane, but essentially uninsulated, window. Two inexpensive self watering rectangular planters were giving me a little trouble with plant damage in winter, until I placed a row of plastic "pillows" salvaged from pkg. shipments between the planters and the window. That seems to keep the soil warm enough I can grow year 'round without difficulty. This is a south facing window, so sunlight is adequate year 'round.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2008)

Wow! I have a lot of those...though I have a NW facing window by my kitchen's planters. But upstairs in our bedroom we have the same planters and it got a lot of sunshine because it is located at the west side of the house...I will remember this today so i can get some packaging materials down the basement for this. Thanks a lot for your tip.

.:bounce:


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## homemadecook (Jan 27, 2010)

It is possible, these herbs can be placed in small pots in the windowsill, decorative, yet functional!


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