# Advice on buying a commercial style freestanding range for the home



## wtdedula

Hello All;
I am planning to remodel my kitchen soon and as a avid cook, I became interested in those commercial style ranges for the home from such companies as Wolf, Viking, and Miele among others. I am wondering if anyone has any of these and can recommend one over the other ? Also, do chef's generally perfer all gas, all electric, or a combination of gas electric (Gas cooktop & electric range) ? I am currently looking at the 36" wide unit with the char grill option. I do realize that these units require a special heavy-duty hood. Thanks for any advice you can provide. 

Tim


----------



## phatch

Do you want the look of the professional range or the real deal? 

Because the fire codes and other requirements for a real professional range installation are going to add to your costs and may not even be feasible for your kitchen. It's more than the hood. The hood will have to vent outside. You'll need fire rated wall board or cement board, a fire rated covering, a high capacity gas line will have to be run, and many jurisdictions also require a sprinkler system at this kind of stove. 

The pro-looking home ranges are finicky, expensive and perform no better than much cheaper mainstream alternatives.

As to fuel, I'd go dual fuel. Gas cooktop and electric oven. But that bumps the cost again.


----------



## amazingrace

The installation of commercial ranges usually requires a different set of codes than those for home stoves, including the type of exhaust system required. In addition the burners on commercial ranges are designed to accommodate much larger pots, and have greater heat output. So unless you are also going to be using large commercial cookware, this presents a problem. I wouldn't recommed a true commercial range for home use. Many of the manufactures you mentioned also produce ranges that are scaled down for home use. Speaking only for myself, I would like a 6-burner gas cook-top with one electric convection oven, or a dual oven..one convection, and the other gas, with a broiler.

EDIT: everything phatch said too. great minds think alike


----------



## boar_d_laze

First, Phil and Grace are right as far as true commercial stoves in the home go. However, if I read you correctly, you're asking about commercial styled residential stoves, i.e., the "cut downs" Grace referred to.

I've had two commercial styled residential stoves over the years, both Vikings. The first was built by Brown when Viking contracted with them, the second built by Viking's current contractor (I forget who that is, offhand). I enjoyed the heck out of them.

Generally commercial-residential stoves are far more finicky, difficult to clean, liable to break and require time consuming and expensive repair, then a regular residential stove (or two) supplying the same amount of oven space and surface-burner acreage.

The extra BTUs commercial-residential stoves supply versus ordinary residential stoves does not equate to any improvement in sauteing, or any other type of cooking -- with the exception of bringing very large pots to temp quicker. Restaurant cooks actually use the extra heat from commerical stoves to preheat (and ruin!) pans quickly, rather than to actually cook anything. There are very few things cooked on a home stove that require more than "medium-high"heat.

However, some of the commercial-residential stoves do have extra features that either aren't available in ordinary residentials, or are just beginning to move in at the most expensive level. High performance broilers, for instance.

The main difference is styling -- and it's a significant difference. If you like the look and can afford it, you should buy it and not look back. When it comes to choosing the particular make and model -- try to research ease of cleaning and availability and cost of local repair, those are very important features but not particularly obvious. IMO, American is probably the best one currently available -- if you can get it fixed when it breaks. Residential Ranges by American Range

From a performance standpoint, a Wolf won't make you a better cook than a Viking, or a Viking make you better than a run of the mill Kenmore. But your kitchen is not all performance is it? It's a place you spend a lot of time, and there's not reason in the world it shouldn't be beautiful and make you feel good about spending time there. And the extra space is very helpful. A commercial style range is one of the few appliances that adds its cost to home value, too. At least if homes ever have value again.

You might not be aware, but a number of "commercial" builders don't actually build the residential stoves which are sold under their names. Wolf residential is owned and built by Sub-Zero -- the only relationship with Wolf commericial is the logo and the name. I think Viking actually left the commercial stove business -- and in any case their stoves are contracted out. And so on. This has a lot to do with the way stoves are built generally, which includes assembling chassis, but buying a lot of generic components from third party manufacturers and vendors.

If you want to increase your knowledge about the distinctions between commercial, commercial-residential and regular residential, we can help you.

If I were putting together a kitchen today, I might choose a top of the line residential for all the features (convection oven, continuous grates, etc.), and add a second, less expensive stove for extra burner and oven space -- or I might choose a commercial-residential with a grill, a griddle, infra-red broiler, convection oven, really sharp looking grates, a big stainless riser, etc. What can I say? I like cooking toys.

You weren't really asking about this, but I almost certainly would not put a true commercial in a home kitchen, unless I were building the kitchen around commercial equipment. One: You don't need it. Two: Most of the extra performance a commercial stove brings is either not important, or counter-productive. And three: Commercial stuff is noisy.

Dual fuel by all means, no matter the style of the stove. If there's still any advantage to a gas oven, I don't know what it is.

BDL


----------



## ed buchanan

First of all do not buy stove in a retail store. Go to a rest. supply for the real thing. The ones for house .,why I dont know ? break down more and labor to repair is higher.
Buy gas not electric. In elec. you really can not regulate heat whereas gas you can. On electric models. you have low, med. high on the burners. thats it. From experience I can tell you do not buy Wolf, or Sub Zero biggest pieces of junk I ever used. Put 5 steaks on a wolf broiler and you will have to wait 10 minutes to put 5 more ,no recoup or lack of BTU s. If you are a good cook, it is not the stove that made you that way. I have worked in kitchens that we had very little equipment, and old at that and the food was great. Stick with top of line residential models. One thing I disagree with BDL about is gas and elec. are the same. Gas is more temperature controlable on the burners .
No heavy duty hoods are required on home models either, you dont need this silly extra expense. You are a home not a restaurant.


----------



## boar_d_laze

I never said gas and electric are the same. I said no advantage to a gas oven. I ddin't say, but it appears I should have, that gas is a big advantage for the top; and, since you can now get gas convection ovens and gas self-cleaning ovens, and electric infrared broilers, the disparities between the two oven/broiler types isn't as great as it used to be, but electric enjoys a slight advantage.

I'm not sure if this is a disagreement between Ed and I or not -- but unless I was specifically building the kitchen to hold commercial appliances, I'd stay with residential. It's not only the hood which Ed points to, differences in plumbing, wiring, requirements for fire safe walls, all kinds of stuff. For a home cook, even a very serious home cook who cooks at a professional level (like me), there's no real pay off for all the extra trouble, other than the commercial look. Those extra BTUs aren't about cooking food better (except in the broiler), they're about cooking a lot of covers faster. 

There are significant drawbacks to a full on commercial kitchen appliances in the home, like noise, heat and cleaning. And they break down a lot, presumably because they're not being used for their intended service. They're pretty much made to be left on all day, not to be turned on and off a lot. 

Again, I'm not saying "don't do it." Just don't walk in with your eyes closed. Don't design a kitchen around a dream, then find out it's going to cost you another 12,500 in plumbing and gas runs. Don't spend $3,000 for a fridge, and another $3,000 for a hood to find out you can't have a conversation in the same room when either are running -- or in the same house when both are,

We use a lot of Wolf commercial ranges out here in the west, and they're very highly regarded. I don't know anything about built in broilers on a Wolf as I've never used one -- only the separate grills and salamanders which worked great. As I said, Wolf residential is not the same company. Only the name and logo are the same. They don't even use the same knobs (residential red - commercial black). 

I wouldn't pay a lot of dough to have a commercial range shipped from the west to the east or vice versa. IMO, within a basic price range, commercial equipment is pretty much fungible -- other than the top grates and the chassis, they're all built out of the same components sourced from the same small group of third party vendors and sub-manufacturers -- burners, convection fans, thermostats, ignitors, valves, griddle plates, you name it.

And, whether you're using a true commercial in the home, or just an expensive commercial look -- I'd make sure I could get quick, local service before buying the stove. Start calling local stove repair stores and see what they service, how long service takes, how long it takes to get parts, and what they say is reliable. You already knows what your retailer likes -- that's why she carries it.

Sorry about all the carrying on. Been there, done that.

BDL


----------



## ed buchanan

There are significant drawbacks to a full on commercial kitchen appliances in the home, like noise, heat and cleaning. And they break down a lot, presumably because they're not being used for their intended service. They're pretty much made to be left on all day, not to be turned on and of

BDL>In Essence we are both telling her the same thing. Also forgot one thing will your floor support the weight of commercial stove, I know of houses that would not.


----------



## amazingrace

Some commercial ranges will not even fit through a regular door opening. I now remember that when we bought a restaurant, many years ago, the existing stove was a standard domestic electric range (hard to believe..but true). We purchased a commercial range, then discovered we had to enlarge the door opening to get it into the building.


----------



## wtdedula

Hello All;
You fellas are great to provide so much information. I want to chime in here so you'd know that I am looking at (and learning from) your posts. 

Jus to set the story straight, I was looking for a professional-style range for the home, definitely not anything commercial like you would actually install in a restaurant. I say "was" because well maybe that's not the best way to go considering what I'm hearing here. But I'm still really undecided. 

I became interested in a professional style range after I saw some at a appliance showroom where I took a kitchen remodeling class. Before a few months ago, I didn't know they existed. Initially, two things about these stoves caught my eye at the dealer - They can be equipped with a charbroiler (I'd love to be able to grill burgers in the middle of winter like restaurants do), and as a enthusiastic home cook, I liked the appearance of them. As I read up on them, I learned of a third advantage - the burners get hotter than a residential stove which probably explains the need for a heavy duty hood. 

However, with all that said, my primary purpose for remodeling my kitchen is to create more cabinet (storage) space so I wasn't too happy to learn that the hood would take away some of my cabinet space. Though if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, I'd still go with a commercial style range. I am also very interested in reliability so whatever I get, I want to be sure it is reliable (If that's ever possible now). 

I loved boar_d_laze's suggestion to ask service center's what they service and what is their most reliable brand. I didn't think of that but now that you suggested it, that's a great idea. 

I think you all have all suggested that a gas cooktop is the the most perferred by chef's. I actually have a electric cooktop now but wouldn't mind switching to gas in my next stove. I get the impression that an electric oven would be an OK idea. 

Actual user reports on the professional style ranges are hard to come by but the few reviews I found were mixed. Actuall more were bad than good but sometimes I think people only review products when they have a bad experience and not when they had a good one. I was actually consdiering Wolf but some of you don't like that brand. 

If I do end with a professional style oven, I don't think I'd have it shipped. I'd buy locally. 

While I'd love to hear from anyone who has something to contribute, I would also like to hear from folks who actually own one of these professional style for the home (NOT Commercial) ranges. 

Tim


----------



## boar_d_laze

Tim,

Let's get our terminology straight so we're on the same page. We're talking about a commercial styled residential stove. I call them commercial residentials. 

You can use a regular hood, as long as it's the right width.

The extra BTUs you get on a commercial residential don't really mean much in terms of your actual cooking. Store salesmen, manufacturer's brochures and even some good magazines talk about the "power to saute," but pal, it's a bunch of baloney. 

For one thing, BTU doesn't actually mean heat, it's a measure of fuel use. For another a "medium-high" stove setting on a regular residential stove is the right temperature to cook almost anything which requires "high" heat. The only way you'll use the difference in a positive way is to bring stock pots to the boil. Otherwise, you'll just use it to wreck your pans. Trust me on this, I've got nothing to gain by lying to you and I really don't care if you want a high-zoot stove or not. They are very cool.

A grill is a very nice feature, but it's going to cost you. They also tend to be (a) messy, (b) unreliable, (c) smoky, and (d) a little small. The rolled steel griddles they put on these things are great.

I've owned two commercial residentials. Both Vikings, but they were actually built by two different companies. I wouldn't have bought the second one but it was part of a very complicated barter arrangement for a fee owed me, which otherwise would not have been paid. I wasn't particularly thrilled with either except for the two oven, six burner, grill/griddle size and styling.

If you're having trouble trying to figure out whether I'm a professional cook or not, I do too. I'm an ex pro, and have been a pure home cook for many years.

The "best" for features, bang for the buck and general reliability is probably American. I left a link to the manufacturers website on my first post to you. Don't know if you went there or not. Take a look.

Wolf is expensive, doesn't have the greatest rep for reliability and wins the good looks contest hands down. If you can get a great guaranty and a great service arrangement -- might be worth the extra money. 

GE Monogram -- Pretty good. Miele ditto. These are tilted a little more towards the residential than other commercial-residentials. Might as well add Thermador in there too. 

Jenn-Air, one step down. Cheaper though.

Imperial -- Kind of an odd design, but if you want an elevated griddle and broiler, go for it. 

DCS -- OK.

Say no to Four Star. Say no to Dacor too. Horrible reliability. 

Yes to the gas top with an electric oven/broiler. Gas top kicks electric's behind. If you've been cooking with electricity, you don't know what you've been missing. Cheaper too. 

Consider a cook top with a grill and a wall oven as your primaries; and putting a separate, inexpensive, basic dual-fuel stove in the corner. This will get you all the space, number of ovens, and so on with a lot of flexibility in terms of where to put things. Really good for a two cook home. Next kitchen I design... 

What else?

BDL


----------



## wtdedula

Hi boar_d_laze;
Thanks for your additional thoughts and comments. I did check out American yesterday. I also found only two reviews - one was great and the other was terrrible. See American Range AR-6 Gas Kitchen Range Reviews. Buying guides & consumer product reviews at Epinions.com. Though these may be commercial units and also it's not possible to determine quality and reliability with so few reviews.

Got a couple of questions - what brings you to the conclusion that American is a reliable brand with the most bang for the buck ? Have you owned one, do you know anyone who does, have you read reviews, etc ? The one reviewer said his convection motor burned out twice but once again, two reviews aren't enough to make a decision as to reliability of a brand.

You have said that you have owned Viking - How do you like them and would you recommend then ? You mentioned you weren't particularly thrilled. I know what you liked about them (two oven, six burner, grill/griddle size and styling) but what didn't you like about them that made you "Not particularly thrilled"?

The teacher (Who was actually a kitchen designer) at the class I took recommended Miele and it looks like you think they're OK.

I think I can get around all of the drawbacks of a particular manufacturer's stove if it's reliable and if it does break down, has a good service network.

Back to your Viking - despite all you dont like about them, have either unit required repair or service ? Additionally, do you feel that it's easy to find someone who can service them if necessary ?

You mentioned ... 
Consider a cook top with a grill and a wall oven as your primaries; and putting a separate, inexpensive, basic dual-fuel stove in the corner. This will get you all the space, number of ovens, and so on with a lot of flexibility in terms of where to put things. Really good for a two cook home. Next kitchen I design... 

Boy I'd love to have the space to install all that but my kitchen is relatively small. If you'd like to see a top view of my proposed kitchen design, click the following link ...

http://www.dedula.net/Dedula Top View.jpg

Tim


----------



## dillbert

Tim -

some residential cooktops do require an outside vented hood with minimum height above the burners. check the manufacturer's specs.

and as for asking a dealer/distributor which is their most reliable - give that some more thought. sales clerks and the like will have not a clue; the repair people/manager have not a clue as to what is sold, only what they have to repair (they could tell you the worst record....); the parts counter should have the best idea presuming (1) the person you are speaking to started before last Tuesday and (2) they carry and service all the brands you are considering.

I have a six burner Viking - sealed burners, heavy cast iron grates, six years old. grates are warping, electronic ignition- their highly touted "safety feature" - works only when it feels like it, each of the six grates has four little tiny rubber feet - not as big as a pencil eraser - which require replacement about every 18 months - the dealer wants $16 for a package of four feet - Viking is not at the top of my list.


----------



## boar_d_laze

Worked on a lawsuit a few years ago which centered around "gourmet" kitchen installations. Our two experts both recommended American and Imperial over everything else.

Same problem with the ignitors that Dilbert had, and it seems as though he and I draw the same ultimate conclusion. Despite the beauty of the stove, there was an unfortunate lack of quality here and there. Difficult to clean. Expensive to repair -- "It is said that the children of Viking repairmen have straight teeth and good educations." 

They have a good reputation for reliability at the expensive end. Perhaps this has something to do with not attempting to clone a commercial stove so exactly and to go with a range of components they understand. Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly if you understand manufacturing in general, the more expensive stoves get, the more tempremental and idiosyncratic they become. 

That's certainly true, but consider the next level down as well -- like the high end Kenmores and so on. I'm not making any recommendations particularly, but I've got a Westinghouse now that isn't giving me any tsurris at all. What a reilief! 

Yes to service -- although some things, like the ignitors, just weren't worth it to repair. I worked in professional kitchens for a few years and got used to lighting stoves with a sparker. 

Nice design, with a tight space! My only recommendation (if you haven't thought of them already) is a book case under the breakfast bar at the island. 

BDL


----------



## burnedbacon

have used viking 36" cooktop for 12 yrs.  (expensive) piece of junk, ie,. igniters sometimes work, automatic re-ignition never did work when flame went out.  service bills out of sight ... bmw compared to ford.  am considering American Range all gas for lower operating

cost and ease of use.


----------



## markin kansas

We ordered a Capital Culinarian, based on Trevor Lawson's awesome youtube demos, his  encouragement for potential customers to go to Eurostove, bring as many of your favorite recipes as you can cook in a day (or even two), go out shopping for supplies, and test-out a Culi.  

After three months use, I have to say, "I love this stove!"  The heat is great.  I test-boiled 12 qts of water, 23:50.  On my Camp Chef 30k btu, 19:45.  Either Camp Chef isn't really 30k (but it will make a 16 in carbon-steel wok bottom glow red, so it is a hottie), or else the Culi is more than 23k, or the Culi's flame pattern is more efficient. 

For ultra-fast boiling of stockpots of water, of course induction is unbeatable. I would not take induction over the Culi, if I had to choose one or the other, but I could definitely see having a single or double induction hob as a nice complement to gas.

We  got the "BBQ grill" option (with 6 regular burners).  It's really nice.  It won't replace an outdoor grill (I've used Webers since '77, love em, I don't think I want to spend $$$$ for a Kalamazoo, but I saw a Primo demo with hardwood logs cooking yesterday, it was a total temptress  )  For winter steaks, I go with a ridged cast-iron skillet over the Culi.

Cleanup is a cinch.  It's really well designed, especially following Trevor's instructions for using alu foil linings.  Burner caps are a  finicky to reinstall after removal, not sure what happened here in design/mfring. It's the only thing you can't quickly take apart and put back together. 

Capital did a design change from initial pre-production top-configurations having three 23k btu burners, two 15k burners and one 8k burner, to all 23k burners.  You need some heat diffusion for super-low heating with this.  I've double-stacked grates, put a small pan in a big cast-iron skillet, pulled out the old double boiler.  They all work.  I should contact Trevor about seeing if I can get an 8k btu burner cap or two.  

The big oven is great.  The 30 incher is wider than most others. Self-cleaning, rotisserie, oven-thermometer checks show good dial-temp-indicator accuracy (within 15-20 degrees).

We also installed a Wolf L double electric built-in. It's awesome.  I mostly use the lower oven for high-temp cooking to minimize heat rising to the control panel's electronics.

You can run convection/dehydration mode down to 110 F.  Caveat, the digital settings are pseudo-precise.  I did a dry-air sous vide chuck roast, wanted to hold 130 F for 24 hours, but temps jumped, according to two thermometers, from 122 F to 135 F. (So, it won't take the place of a water-immersion device for ultra-precise temp control.)  Still, the roast was delish, tender and pink at 135, and the low-temp convection/dehyration mode has worked nicely for drying tomatoes, apples, and beef (jerky).  I've made tasty breads in both the Culi and the Wolf.

I like using Wolf convection for drying implements, like the Culi's cast-iron grates.  (My kitchen designer pointed out, you can get some good workouts doing curls with these heavyweight babies.)

The Wolf digital-control warming oven is superb  for dough-rising, and tenderizing your thick steaks, (I'm E coli proof. YMMV    )  

We got a Liebherr fridge.  Miele uses Liebherr compressors.  The performance specs on Liebherr are just a little better than Miele (its Supercool mode, -26F  is a couple degrees cooler than Miele, and lighting is ultra-longlife bulb/emitter, low-heat, low wattage LEDs).  We had a Sub-Z that conked out after 25 years.  Instead of getting a new compressor, we decided to go with current gen technology, and it looked like the Germans were ahead of the Wisconsans at this point in time.  It doesn't always close all the way if you just casually push/swing the door or freezer drawer and walk away, but no problem, it starts beeping after a couple minutes to alert you.


----------



## justaladyintx

We just remolded our "Dream Kitchen" after 40yrs in our home. We studied reveiws and wanted a High End Range.. We choice the 36" capital self cleaning oven and grill. We LOVE our stove. I had to get use to the difference in cooking on a cheap stove to a commerical size stove but boy does it cook great! I love to bake and everything comes out perfect. My husband orginally wanted the griddle but after thinking about the real use we decieded on the grill and is happy he changed. He loves to cook and althou we aren't fully remolded yet, still have the flooring and painting to do we are useing our kitchen fully. We found a good deal on ventihood and my husband installed that. We are very proud of our new kitchen and can't wait to spend time trying new things! The only thing I can say that we have not really liked is the knobs are touchy..and sometimes when leaning on the stove we have found they get turned on. Our grill for one! My husband almost got burned not knowing the grill got turned and it he touch the top and kinda freaked me out.

Sometimes when we turn the burner on low it starts makeing a Clicking sound..Drives my husband nuts. Then sometimes it doesn't make a sound. But other than that we have not had any problems.  Love it!!


----------



## duckfat

justaladyintx said:


> Sometimes when we turn the burner on low it starts makeing a Clicking sound..Drives my husband nuts. Then sometimes it doesn't make a sound.


IIR Capitals have circle burners. Romove the burner grate if it happens again and then remove the top center metal piece of your burner. It should lift right off. What some times happens is humidity gets under that burner cap and then that burner won't ignite. Just wipe it dry and put it back together.

If it persists call for service as it usually ends up being a defective control module (especially if it's always the same burner clicking) or sometimes an ignitor.

Dave


----------



## msbee

What a wonderful thread. I came here through a Google search and think I've found a new home!


----------



## mrsg

so glad to have found you.   Love to cook...have had both electric ( early in my life) and gas more recently (18  years).   I am currently going through some legal mess with Fisher Paykel.  I purchased a 30 inch ( no longer made) gas/gas convection almost a year ago.  It has become my own personal nightmare.  The oven door reaches 350 degrees on the outside and all decorative plates, etc, have buckled. The oven handle has so much condensation that it drips onto my floor and the when I open the door to put something into the oven or remove something, it raises on its own to about 6 inches from completely closed.   To say the least, this is a preventable tragedy waiting to happen.  FP and the retailer have been of little help until, of course, I hired an attorney to get me some kind of satisfaction.

   If the situation wasn't so pitiful, I would almost laugh since I purchased this model specifically because it had no bells or whistles.  In my mind, there would be less to go wrong.   I guess Fisher Paykel showed me!

Now I am back to square one...researching my options for a replacement.   I most definitely want a residential/commercial.   My kitchen has been designed with the stove as the focal point ( I am an interior designer by trade) so it is important to me to keep the look seamless and professional.  I cook every day and do a good bit of entertaining.   I wish my kitchen was large enough to accommodate a 36 inch model, but that is not a possibility.

I am pretty gun shy now and am concerned about BDL's suggestion of American.... any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## parkerdick

You know the other posts were like 4 years old...I am wondering what the latest info is. As far as residential commercial, they are not highly touted on consumer reports. In fact they suggest you use a normal stove or cook top and dual fuel.....I am like you...I love the look of the commercial, but I keep getting pulled back in to a more value oriented search....So I am at the same location that I always have been. Maybe there is new research and we are all turned around now.....Take care...


----------



## mrsg

I did a TON of research and came to the conclusion that my best options were wolf ( best warranty in the biz). Or Thermidor because of the star shaped and thereby more even heat distribution..... ( a la Bluestar). As it ended fisher-paykel offered me a DCS dual fuel as a replacement at no additional charge So far, I love it. Fast cooking, amazing oven ( best pie crust I have ever made!!!!) beautiful to look at. Best part = making a new friend of their nat'l customer service manager. She is wonderful!!!!!!!


----------



## parkerdick

Look at consumer reports for more info...These are 30 inch...The 36 inch are $2,000 more on the average....As you can see, the Wolf is almost double the other two.....

*Kenmore Pro 79523 rated 65* 

*Price:* $3400

*Summary*
This Kenmore freestanding dual-fuel range has the following:
• 5 surface burners
• Among surface burners, 1 high-powered burner(s).
• Convection oven mode.
• Grates: Cast iron, continuous.
• Oven dial instead of touchpads for setting oven temperature.
• Heavy, stainless steel construction; pro-style

*KitchenAid KDRS407VSS rated 72* 

*Price:* $4000

*Summary*
This KitchenAid freestanding dual-fuel range has the following:
• 4 surface burners
• Among surface burners, 3 high-powered burner(s).
• Convection oven mode.
• Grates: Cast iron, continuous.
• Glass touch-screen for setting oven temperature.
• Heavy, stainless steel construction; pro-style.

*Wolf DF304 rated 68* 

*Price:* $6400

*Summary*
This Wolf freestanding dual-fuel range has the following:
• 4 surface burners
• Among surface burners, 3 high-powered burner(s).
• Convection oven mode.
• Grates: Cast iron, continuous.
• Touchpads for setting oven temperature.
• Heavy, stainless steel construction; pro-style.


----------



## mspink646

Hi,

I need a new stove.  My home has an electric stove and I must go gas!  My friend is a successful restaurant owner for 30 + years and has offered to get me a 36 inch Imperial Stove for an incredible price.  He also has these stoves in his several homes.  I am reading all these replies and am concerned about 1) outside exhaust needed  2) special hood needed

If I have to spend money doing these two things then it may not be such a good deal?

Also, they have pilot lights.  If I am not home for several days at a time, are these commercial residential stoves safe to leave alone with pilot light on?

Thanks!


----------



## whiteiris

After reading all of the opinions, I'm still stumped! I'm Building a new house and I have researched a lot of stoves! Problem is, in buying a "consumer commercial" stove, they gouge you price wise. I can get a beautiful solid everlasting brand new commercial stove for HALF the price. It's like "here comes the consumer-let's screw them". I think it's time people found out that we don't need to pay $10k for a really good stove!!!I'm willing to put the money into a better venting system so that I can have the stove I want. I don't want a "rotisserie" for my oven and I don't want an indoor grill. I only want a stove and a griddle. That's it. And 2 ovens. Gas. I can't see paying twice as much for a bunch of stuff that I simply don't want and a brand that seems to have lots of problems!!!I talked to my builder and he said it wouldn't be a problem!


----------



## petemccracken

Check your local building codes as well as your natural gas supply.

Commercial stoves have less insulation and may require fire retardant materials around the installation area. Most commercial ranges require 3"-4" space around them.

Residential natural gas (and even LPG propane) may not have sufficient capacity for commercial equipment. A chef friend on the East Coast discovered this problem AFTER purchasing a Garland for his house, if he was to light all ten burners, he would extinguish all the neighboring furnaces!


----------



## skittlebug

Hi everyone,

I am remodeling my small kitchen and looking for a "professional style" 24" inch sealed burner gas range. The makers I'm considering include Blue Star, Five Star, Bertazzoni, Ilve, and American Range. It is really hard to decide! The few reviews out there on some of these models are all mixed -- people either love them or absolutely hate them. I can't find the perfect one!

I am willing to spend up to $4,000 on this -- quite a a chunk of cash for a small 24" stove. I want it to look really nice and fit with the kitchen decor, but I also need a reliable and long-lived range.

I cook and bake a fair amount, but usually for 2 to 4 people only. 

Help!! Any feedback or opinions based on real experience would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!


----------



## skittlebug

One more model I just came across: Summit Professional Series 24". It goes for under $1,000 so would save a lot compared to the others. I can't find any reviews on it! Anyone know anything about this one?

Thanks again.


----------



## cbcolem

Skittlebug, What did you end up doing? Any thoughts?


----------



## kermitp

Surprised not to see bluestar mentioned before Skittlebug's comment. I put a bluestar 36" 6 burner into my last apartment and boy do I miss that range now that I have moved.


----------



## freddie2

I've had a >20 yo South Bend 60 inch 6 burner with raised griddle/broiler which came with the large loft plumbed for gas already and love it all the time! We are rather professional home cooks and have a 24 inch Star Lava Rock Grill, and Traulsen refrigerator/freezers remoted to the roof just above us, and a NYC Master Range wok burner stove accommodating a 24inch wok, all in one row. Yes, we installed fire board behind a quilted s/s "backsplash" wall behind the stove, wok stove, and grill, commercial s/s Tabco tables on either side of the cooking equipment, thus eliminating the heat/fire problem, and a very large commercial custom two speed hood built by a local commercial mfg of hoods which even sucks out the grill smoke. Yes it's expensive to run, yes it's noisy, but no I've had no maintenance problems with the stove, save one oven thermometer replacement when the stove was already 15 years old. Got a commercial repair guy to do it. would I do all of this again in a similar large space, absolutely! 

No problems with simmer, but when I get particular I have a flame tamer but hardly use it. We have all commercial pots and pans. If I want to cook a sauce, timing is everything. Not too high a heat and rewarm before serving. I've even cooked Bernaise, though I used to do it in a double boiler. Commercial eqpt requires attention when cooking. Love the griddle for hamburgers, shrimps in their skin, Mexican peppers to char, and the broiler requires 1-2 min to brown a cheese topped dish. Must watch every 15 sec. Love the lava rock grill, esp love the wok burner, but we're used to wok cooking, my partner is from a cooking family from Hong Kong, but these are not equipment for the people who want a pretty place. Griddle requires cleaning, grill also and stove at least every two weeks one made to spend 2 hours on. 

My recommendations, don't put in a grill or wok burner unless you have a very powerful hood. Consult a local commercial hook mfg. if you don't know how to use a commercial wok, don't do it. We love the Master Range one but should have had it built with a stainless steel top instead of the black painted iron top, a minor problem of aesthetics. If you remote commercial Traulsens do it through a chase to the roof because you may have to change the piping whatever it is called and you don't want to tear out the wall to do it. Otherwise I have found not problems with a commercial range in the kitchen. No broiler? We have the broiler under the griddle and a lava rock grill. Would like to have a convection, but that's available with a new stove. Love the restaurant capacity of the ovens for the full sheet pans. Would love to have all stainless stove but that means a new commercial Garland. My 21000 btu burners are no problem.

Expensive to install and run, yes. Noisy, yes esp the freezer which we had to replace with a free standing one instead of remoted due to leak problems which is why I said build in a chase. We like the constant pilots on for yeast doughs, etc. Does it look fabulous, yes! But it's not for most people! CertAinly not for a clean-freak. But does it work? You betcha!

My dilemma is whether to buy a new similar stove or not? Haven't inspected a Blue Star, but from the blogs think the oven racks may be a problem. My favorite is Garland but would like to know someone's opinion who's used a Garland. Who's used a French Top? I never have, but Blue Star offered one sections in that style. Have always thought I might like to use that.

Freddie


----------



## campbell

I never post anything on the internet yet I thought this issue was something that people that are willing to spend big dollars on a high end stove should be aware of:

I recently purchased a 48" Capital Culinarian series MCOR486B - I love the look of the stove and the burners worked as expected. The burners have a very high heat and it took a little getting used to, but I had carefully researched all of the pros and cons of purchasing a residential-commercial stove, so I was prepared for this learning curve. 

However, the first time that I used the oven I discovered that the oven racks could not be pulled out of the oven. My mother had prepared a very large pork roast and nearly burned her arms reaching into the oven when putting in the roast as the racks wouldn't budge. 

I reported this issue to Plesser's where I purchased the stove, as well as a high end microwave, high end refrigerator, and a high end dish washer, yet they told me to contact the manufacturer directly, so I did. The manufacturer told me that this was a defect which they were aware of and that the rails and racks needed to be replaced. I thought that was an odd solution to the problem as it seemed to me that the oven walls were over expanding and not the racks. The tech also said that this issue had been fixed at the manufacturing level at the beginning of the year. He also said that they have since changed the manufacturing of the gas tank and the rails at manufacturing. Plesser's said that they got the stove through a distributor, so I can only assume that the distributor had these sitting in his warehouse or the defect would have been fixed from manufacturing.

I became very uncomfortable with the idea that Capital wanted to only replace the rails when it seemed that the oven was having some pretty severe issues. I have cooked in many low end ovens, some that cost as $300 and I have never had a problem with a stove before. Yet, this $8,000 stove can't even get the most basic oven functionality working to satisfaction. I requested a full replacement of the stove and requested to speak to a manager. It has been nearly 2 weeks since I reported the issue and no one has called me to schedule a repair call. After 3 more calls to Capital I finally got a call today from a manager from Capital and he basically told me that I have nothing to fear, that Capital has MY best interest in mind and that they will not replace the stove. Plesser's refuses to take back the stove and I am now supposed to just let Capital mask the bigger problem with oven by simply replacing the rails and putting in smaller racks. I would imagine that if the stove walls continue to expand the way that they do the replacement rails will eventually become loose or warped and my lovely stove will be long out of warranty by then. If I can't get the manufacturer to stand behind their product while it is a couple of days old and under warranty what should I expect in 3 years? I will let you know how it turns out.


----------



## dgl1505

I thought I would weigh in on this discussion. I live in a residential cohousing community. We have a common house where we prepare community meals for 30+ people 5 days per week.

We purchased a commercial-residential a.k.a. commercial-style, a.k.a. Pro-style oven-range 14 years ago and have been using it all this time. Its a 36-inch wide DCS brand all-gas oven and stove with 6 stove burners.

Here is our experience - generally it has worked well but with several instances (I estimate about 10 in 14 years) of needing repair. The oven door especially has been prone to breaking and/or not working correctly. As for use, it was pretty good in the early years, but for about the last 4 years and now at age 14 it has numerous problems and we are looking for a replacement. We have a handyman in our community who does all our repair work and he thinks the DCS design is poor (especially the door but also the burners).

Our hood was originally a residential one we found 2nd-hand. It failed after about 3 years so we kept the hood shell and bought a robust motor and fan that we mounted on the roof, thus improving air flow (with a higher wattage motor) as well as noise (motor is on the roof further away from stove). That said, our hood isn't silent, it does still make a significant amount of noise.

*I visited a local appliance dealer and asked general questions about these Commercial-residential style ranges and here is what he said*

1) Most of the brands for this class of range lack the robustness to endure heavy repeated use over many years. They are built for residences and will generally work well in that usage environment. The usage environment I have (30+ people 5 days per week) is well above the residence usage environment.

2) The Blue Star brand is one exception to the lack of durability and robustness and will last for years

3) These Commercial-residential style ranges are suited for use in the home. A true commercial style range or oven requires major design modifications to the kitchen including not having cabinets next to them (due to the high heat they put out).

4) The Blue Star ranges can be configured with different BTU capacity burners. I believe he said that you can configure 2 of the 6 burners so they have up to 25,000 BTU's each or as low as 12,000 BTUs each.

5) While all ranges come in standard exterior widths (i.e. 30-inch, 36-inch, 48-inch) the interior oven width is NOT standard and you can find oven sizes all over the map. Hence be sure what oven size you need and measure before you buy. Even measure your pans to see if they will fit.

*Here are my observations and research results*

a) The dealer I spoke with carries Blue Star so no surprise that he was extolling its virtues. Having said that he also carries all the major brands (e.g. Viking, DCS, Fisher and Paykel, Wolf, KitchenAid, Dacor, Jenn-Air, Bertazzoni and others) so its difficult to determine just how reliable his comments are. Maybe he gets a higher profit margin with Blue Star and so pushes that brand, or maybe he is telling the truth and Blue Star really is a more robust and durable product in this class of ranges.

b) DCS and Fisher and Paykel are two brands made by the same company. I have no personal experience with Fisher & Paykel.

c) Consumer Reports has rated Pro-style ranges. They rated one 30-inch Blue Star model and it came in at the lowest rating. They didn't test a 36-inch Blue Star model but they did test 36-inch models in other brands. However I also noted that durability or robustness isn't among Consumer Reports' rated criteria. They rated usage traits like "Cooktop high", "Cooktop low", "Baking", "Broiling", "Oven Capacity", "Self Cleaning". One might conclude that a low rating in one model of a brand indicates a low rating in another model of that same brand. But I have followed Consumer Reports for more than 30 years. In my experience it is somewhat common for CR to declare a given model of an appliance as "Best" and at the same time declare another model by the same brand much lower (sometimes even poor). So what does this mean for the Blue Star Brand? Its hard to say since they didn't test a 36-inch model or any other models other than one 30-inch from Blue Star. It isn't a good sign to me but I think not necessarily conclusive. I would need more info to make a decision.

d) Our experience with DCS seems to reflect what the appliance sales guy I spoke with said, i.e. it lacks a robustness for heavy use. I have no experience with any other brand of this commercial-residential class of ranges so I can't speak directly to those but perhaps what the sales guy said is true, most brands of this class lack this robustness.

e) Blue Star is U.S. made.

f) I found this article about Prizer-Painter Stove Works which is who makes the Blue Star brand. http://businessweekly.readingeagle.com/a-rolls-royce-of-ranges/

*I have questions of my own - *

Q1) When someone declares Commercial-Residential style ranges as "Finicky" does this apply to all brands and sizes (30-inch, 36-inch, 48-inch) and if so do they have experience with all those brands and sizes?

Q2) I was leaning toward Blue Star brand until I read the Consumer Reports article. So now I need more information. Not sure where to get it. I was hoping this site might help.


----------



## mmechef

I am a chef and now teach. I own a basic gas stove with a convection oven. It's white, not stainless steel. It works extremely well. I would never opt for a commercial oven in my home, the heat from the pilot lights alone would add to my a/c costs apart from the need for additional costs of ventilation. Totally unnecessary for home use unless you are planning on catering from your home, and a it pretentious if not.


----------



## seacook

Since the tread is still open I thought I'd add my 2 cents. I cooked on fishing boats that use diesel fuel, old yachts that use coal and a number of restaurants. I put in a 6 burner Viking 8 years ago as I like how tough it is, I entertain 8-30 people at a time, and I know the extended use past normal family use is something the Viking can handle. Previously I had a 4 burner glass top 500$ job that was fine for family use. Of course for the price of the Viking I could have burned through 10 of those stoves! But its tough and i can slide pots and pans around on it with impunity.

It is a pain in the ass to clean a non sealed burner stove. Its a 1-2 hour operation. But its also a piece of furniture and a focal point of the kitchen. like the pros said, a pure commercial unit is a bit overkill in many respects. But heh, if you have deep pockets what the heck.


----------



## veggie77

I too am in need of advice. I've been looking for new range for a while now. I just came across a brand new 48" wolf six burner range top with griddle go an unbelievable price advertised locally on Kijiji. I knew it was too big for my home but I had to buy it! It's a 2008 but it was new in the box and I got it for $1000. Here's where the delema starts. I can trade it off at s local dealer whom I know for a Bluestar Rnb30 all gas or sell it to him for double or maybe triple my money. I was set on maybe getting the Bluestar but I just found a 36" six burner dcs on clearence for $3000. So do I get the Bluestar or Dcs


----------



## pastrydiva

If your choice is between the Blue Star an the DCS, go with the Blue Star.

All the ranges (and 1 cooktop) we have had in our cooking school for the past 16 years are dual energy Five Star ranges,all with open burners and none of them has ever given us any trouble whatsoever!

We have NEVER had one single problem with them.  They are fabulous ranges.  The heat output on the burners is easy to control - from simmering a delicate sauce to searing meat. One of the stoves has a griddle, which frankly we never ever use.  However, we did have one of the stoves retro-fitted with a flame grill which is terrific, except it is a bit of a pain to clean.


----------



## NeeNee

We're in the throes of making this huge oven-range decision for our home renovation. My husband is a former chef and dreams of 35,000 BTU burners. He can't have them at home. Period. But we need something powerful and robust. So we're trying to decide between a Wolf, a Platinum level Blue Star, or.... gasp... maybe induction? dgl1505, may I ask what you ended up choosing? There are very mixed reviews on Blue Star service, but they're the only ones who really make what we want: 25,000 BTU burners, a French Top, a gas oven.



dgl1505 said:


> I thought I would weigh in on this discussion. I live in a residential cohousing community. We have a common house where we prepare community meals for 30+ people 5 days per week.
> 
> We purchased a commercial-residential a.k.a. commercial-style, a.k.a. Pro-style oven-range 14 years ago and have been using it all this time. Its a 36-inch wide DCS brand all-gas oven and stove with 6 stove burners.
> 
> Here is our experience - generally it has worked well but with several instances (I estimate about 10 in 14 years) of needing repair. The oven door especially has been prone to breaking and/or not working correctly. As for use, it was pretty good in the early years, but for about the last 4 years and now at age 14 it has numerous problems and we are looking for a replacement. We have a handyman in our community who does all our repair work and he thinks the DCS design is poor (especially the door but also the burners).
> 
> Our hood was originally a residential one we found 2nd-hand. It failed after about 3 years so we kept the hood shell and bought a robust motor and fan that we mounted on the roof, thus improving air flow (with a higher wattage motor) as well as noise (motor is on the roof further away from stove). That said, our hood isn't silent, it does still make a significant amount of noise.
> 
> *I visited a local appliance dealer and asked general questions about these Commercial-residential style ranges and here is what he said*
> 
> 1) Most of the brands for this class of range lack the robustness to endure heavy repeated use over many years. They are built for residences and will generally work well in that usage environment. The usage environment I have (30+ people 5 days per week) is well above the residence usage environment.
> 
> 2) The Blue Star brand is one exception to the lack of durability and robustness and will last for years
> 
> 3) These Commercial-residential style ranges are suited for use in the home. A true commercial style range or oven requires major design modifications to the kitchen including not having cabinets next to them (due to the high heat they put out).
> 
> 4) The Blue Star ranges can be configured with different BTU capacity burners. I believe he said that you can configure 2 of the 6 burners so they have up to 25,000 BTU's each or as low as 12,000 BTUs each.
> 
> 5) While all ranges come in standard exterior widths (i.e. 30-inch, 36-inch, 48-inch) the interior oven width is NOT standard and you can find oven sizes all over the map. Hence be sure what oven size you need and measure before you buy. Even measure your pans to see if they will fit.
> 
> *Here are my observations and research results*
> 
> a) The dealer I spoke with carries Blue Star so no surprise that he was extolling its virtues. Having said that he also carries all the major brands (e.g. Viking, DCS, Fisher and Paykel, Wolf, KitchenAid, Dacor, Jenn-Air, Bertazzoni and others) so its difficult to determine just how reliable his comments are. Maybe he gets a higher profit margin with Blue Star and so pushes that brand, or maybe he is telling the truth and Blue Star really is a more robust and durable product in this class of ranges.
> 
> b) DCS and Fisher and Paykel are two brands made by the same company. I have no personal experience with Fisher & Paykel.
> 
> c) Consumer Reports has rated Pro-style ranges. They rated one 30-inch Blue Star model and it came in at the lowest rating. They didn't test a 36-inch Blue Star model but they did test 36-inch models in other brands. However I also noted that durability or robustness isn't among Consumer Reports' rated criteria. They rated usage traits like "Cooktop high", "Cooktop low", "Baking", "Broiling", "Oven Capacity", "Self Cleaning". One might conclude that a low rating in one model of a brand indicates a low rating in another model of that same brand. But I have followed Consumer Reports for more than 30 years. In my experience it is somewhat common for CR to declare a given model of an appliance as "Best" and at the same time declare another model by the same brand much lower (sometimes even poor). So what does this mean for the Blue Star Brand? Its hard to say since they didn't test a 36-inch model or any other models other than one 30-inch from Blue Star. It isn't a good sign to me but I think not necessarily conclusive. I would need more info to make a decision.
> 
> d) Our experience with DCS seems to reflect what the appliance sales guy I spoke with said, i.e. it lacks a robustness for heavy use. I have no experience with any other brand of this commercial-residential class of ranges so I can't speak directly to those but perhaps what the sales guy said is true, most brands of this class lack this robustness.
> 
> e) Blue Star is U.S. made.
> 
> f) I found this article about Prizer-Painter Stove Works which is who makes the Blue Star brand. http://businessweekly.readingeagle.com/a-rolls-royce-of-ranges/
> 
> *I have questions of my own - *
> 
> Q1) When someone declares Commercial-Residential style ranges as "Finicky" does this apply to all brands and sizes (30-inch, 36-inch, 48-inch) and if so do they have experience with all those brands and sizes?
> 
> Q2) I was leaning toward Blue Star brand until I read the Consumer Reports article. So now I need more information. Not sure where to get it. I was hoping this site might help.


----------

