# Scratch white cakes and yellow cakes



## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry to re-enter this subject, I remember another thread on this topic but I don't know where it's at. I still don't know my way around this site.

Anyway I was wondering if anyone ever did find the definative recipes for both. I remember M.Brown mentioning she uses liquid shortening (?). I've yet to find recipes for these cakes that I liked after they've been refridgerated so I'd like to learn more about that on my way to finding my perfect cake recipes. Plus I was hoping to learn from others what recipes they liked and discarded as they were exploring this topic.

Or is the answer to stick with geniose and lady finger cakes as the great pastry chefs do because they hold well?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

I love génoise, it's such a great building block cake. I am sure we each have our favourite recipe. 

There are time when I just want to make a quick vanilla cake. I then turn to Richard Sax's Classic Home Dessert and make the Hot Water Sponge Cake. It takes about 10 minutes to make. It's nothing fancy but as far as plain cake go I like this one. If you would like the recipe let me know.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the tip Iza I do have his book, I'm make a note to try that.

I like Belouets lady finger sponge, pound and genoise best so far....more than Hermes'. Whos' do you follow?

P.S. have you tried Sax's fudge sauce? It's excellent!! I also have made his double chocolate pudding a couple times.....not much else acouple on so so items. Did you discover any other good recipes from that book?


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Everything I did from this book turned out very well.

Last Christmas I made mincemeat loosely based on the recipes he offers. Did the same for fruits cakes. He is so right when he says that what is generally so awful about fruit cakes is the red and green things and that fruit cakes would taste so much better done with dried fruits instead of candied fruits. So true I don't care for fruit cakes until I took his advice.

What did I make, so hard sometimes to recall everything. I think I should note in the margin of my book what recipes I tried and how it was. That would be useful.

Pear Charlotte in white bread, it's usually done with apple but I do love pear so much and it was good. I made some crisp or crumbles with berry.

What attracted me to his Hot Water Spongecake is the absence of butter and how quick and easy it was to make. I don't know the taste of your clients but it is a simple but good cake.

His gingerbread cake with candied ginger. I add a whole bunch of other spices to it. Very good. While on ginger, give a try to the M.F.K. Fisher's ginger Hottendots and the hermits. Shortbread too, great for Christmas.

Fruits compotes, coffee cakes…I'm leafing through the book trying to recall. One recipe I always want to try when I open this book but haven't because I keep forgetting is the Breakfast Polenta Cake, page 292. It looks ever so good on the picture don't you think? So does the Hawaiian Coconut Coffee Cake, one day I'll get there.

Never try the chocolate sauce, would you believe its not something I eat? It's true.

Can't recall it all. Maybe tomorrow will be better. 

Genoise yes I used to take Lenotre's recipe. The last time I did one, was in April I think and I can't believe what I did but here it goes. In The Art Of The Cake it is said that the difference between our flour and French flour is such that we need to add a bit of potato starch to achieve simmilar results.

So there I was with about 10 different recipes for a genoise. Lenotre, The Roux Brothers, Malgieri, Bugnat, Cook's Illustrated, Rose Levy and God knows whoelse. So I made up my own based on all of them. I know it turned out well. It's just too bad I can't recall where I put the piece of paper with my recipe. I'll just have to try that again.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Iza ]


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## isa (Apr 4, 2000)

Lucky you got me talking about that book Wendy, I had forgotten it was time to make my mincemeat. I did it in October last year, for the first time, and told myself I would start earlier this year.

I made some as a gift for my British step mother and loved it. It's because of her I got into scones too. I made some for her birthday and it was love at first bite!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

DeBord,
When you find your way around let me know. It's pretty nice here, pretty down to earth.Anyway, white and yellow, I'm thinking the shortening mentioned was nutex, a liquid shortening. If I have time tomorrow I'll pull some recipes. Hectic lately, I'm doing a solo, my associate is in the process of flying the coup. I could sure use somebody to take care of that little retail shop!!Hey, if Jamacia can come up with a bob-sled team I'm sure I can find you something to ski on.
Hope all is well with you
Jeff


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Your the GREATEST! I needed to start my day with a smile. 

I'm not sure why it's so different here, I guess it's like at most jobs actually......the top guy sets the tone and chooses the right people to carry out his dirrectives. Give them respect and they'll give it back. Treat them like idiots and that's the only people that will stay.

Honestly, if I could, I'd be begging at your door for a job. I can't do the Southern heat besides I'm totally a fish out of water down there. Can't wash the Northerner out of me at this age.... P.S. Did my work pay you for the extenders? I didn't even get to use them! (that stinks), I'm sure the new pastry chef will appreciate them though....they'll need something good (I just got a good scale before I quit, too) there cause their going to get burned so fast they won't know what hit them.

Things are great with me, for the first time in 3 years! I still have to work this week (in a extremely hostile enviroment)concluding with a big wedding on my last day! But I feel like a whole new person. I managed to get the last three weekends off to spend with my husband and discover that this is what life should be about. I'll change industrys again before I go back to 60 hour work weeks with unfreindly people. I'm learning to be happy and fun again. I'm so grateful my husband has a good job and totally supports my decision that we come first before any jobs, life is GOOD!

Yes it was nutex I was speaking about. M. Brown was the person who mentioned it, I beleive. She works from Joesph Amendolas baking book (which school is he from?)which she must have gotten at school, right?? I guess the concept is that unlike butter it doesn't change texture when it set's up in the cooler, which makes perfect sense. Which is the problem I have with scratch cakes a day later and you can't recognize it compared to what it was like fresh.

I'm lining up my ducks and want to understand nutex and how to use it, so "if" I find a new position I can start right away with better scratch cakes.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I had a bunch of recipes from my hotel days, which contained liquid shortening, but I think I've thrown them out. But when you mentioned mbrown's school (which was mine as well-J&W), I realized that we used that stuff at school! Give me a sec., and I'll find the recipe.

Or will you be needing it in your new life??


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Liquid shortening sponge cake 

1 pt. eggs
14 oz sugar
6.5 oz fluid flex
5.5 oz milk
10.5 oz cake flour
.75 oz BP
.25 oz salt
vanilla

Blend all ingredients at once. Mix 4 min. on high. Scrape down. Mix 3 min. on medium. 

Grease pans. Bake @ 350.

Yield: 3 9"


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks Momoreg, and this sponge compares to a classic sponge nicely in taste but it's texture will hold up and remain light after refidgeration, right?

It seemed like you don't use these recipes using nutex...is there a reason why you prefer something else?


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

I haven't used high ratio shortening in at least 15 years, and hardly remember the difference between them. 

The reason I don't use them is mostly for flavor. I can tell when a cake is made with shortening. But the advantage to the high ratio shortening is that you can add substantially more liquid to your mix without it breaking. (I believe it can handle 10% more, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think I sent you my white cake recipe a couple of years ago. I like it because it's all butter, and it can be frozen and thawed, without any moisture loss. You have it, right?


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hum, I have no memory of recieving that recipe from you, it must have been on the other side since I haven't been here that long. Was it during that heated thread with Gerard slamming me every post over cake mixes? The whole discusion was so nasty I don't recall any productive conversation......

I don't have your recipe in my file which is where I would place it.......? I guess I don't know what I did with it.

So I am understanding correctly... You prefer to use your butter recipe for white cake over a cake with liquid shortening?


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

Wendy, I seem to recall that both you and I have been searching for that perfect recipe for yellow sponge cakes for quite some time now. I remember the past thread where somebody posted a recipe using Nutex. I use something similar called Fluid Flex. I only use it for our sponge cakes, yellow, white and chocolate. For pound cakes and bundt cakes, I still stick to all butter. Here's a little tip to try when you start testing momoreg's recipe: Sift in with the flour about 15-18 % vanilla pudding mix, about 1.5 oz. I started doing this after that discussion we had had on wanting the moistness and texture of "box mix" but wanting a scratch recipe. I'm still finalizing my recipe, but I can tell you that my cakes are so much moister and softer with the addition of the pudding powder. I haven't tried it yet with a butter cake recipe but I am sure it would work.
Let me know how things turn out and I'm glad your enjoying life with your husband and leaving that headache job behind! It really is important to find that balance.


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## momoreg (Mar 4, 2000)

Give this a try:

5 lb. 4 oz cake flour
5.5 oz BP
1T salt

4 lb butter
7 lb 5 oz sugar
5 T vanilla
1/2 gal + 1 c milk, warm

2 qt whites

Sift dry ingredients 2x.

Cream butter w/ sugar and vanilla. Alternate milk w/ dry.

Whip whites to stiff (not dry) peaks. Fold into other mixture.

Pour into graesed, papered pans.

This is a white cake. I think you might be able to add some yolks to the mix for color. Because there is BP in the mix, it shouldn't have too much impact on the texture, if you don't overdo it.

Please let me know what you think.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Oh my oh my oh my!  Im glad I came across this thread. Ive been using my aunts recipes for scratch cakes and she only uses butter or a butter shortening mix. Actually, some of the other recipes Ive come across use the same also. 

I have never heard of liquid shortening. Never went to school for baking either. I dont think the mandatory class for girls from elementary school through high school in Barbados counts. Does it? Can you tell me where I can find liquid shortening? Can I get it from a restaurant supply store? Ill do a search on Nutex to see what I can find. Im very interested in this product and finding the perfect scratch cake recipe.

Jodi

Edit: I searched for fluid flex and got some joint medicine for pets.  I couldn't find much info on Nutex either. Think I'll go to bed and search tomorrow.


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Nutex is made by Proctor and Gamble, that should get you started. We used it extensively in school, because they got it free I think. To me, cakes made with it are all form and no substance. when I need a yellow cake I make a vanilla chiffon genoise.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

So you are basically saying that it holds well but doesn't taste very good??  Ill see if The Art of The Cake has the vanilla chiffon gen....Id like to try it.

Jodi


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## spoons (Nov 10, 2000)

W.
Do a search, type in Scratch white cakes and yellow cakes. I know I was part of that thread.
I too was trying to find the perfect white.
I've been using Fluid Flex. And took Angrychef's tip on using the pudding. I am really satisfied on what I've been using for a white cake. Super moist. Yes, butter is always better. But the holding qualities using the fluid flex is great.


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## mudbug (Dec 30, 1999)

Click here to view the chocolate and yellow cakes thread in question above.


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

Yellow Cake 
We were looking for a moist, tender cake that was both foolproof and full-flavored. By changing mixing methods and ingredient ratios, we achieved our goal. 

The challenge: Cakes have long been—and still are—usually made by a classic method that calls for beating (or creaming) the butter and sugar until light and fluffy, then adding the eggs one at a time, and finally adding the dry ingredients and milk alternately. This is the method we relied on when we started out to develop a recipe for yellow cake. And the cakes we made with it weren’t necessarily bad, but they weren’t very interesting. Instead of melting in your mouth, these cakes were crumbly, sugary, and a little hard. And they were lacking in flavor, too; they did not taste of butter and eggs, as all plain cakes ought to, but instead seemed merely sweet. Tinkering with the ingredients brought about some improvement, but we wanted more. 

The solution: What we ultimately tried on our yellow cake was a different way of mixing, known as the two-stage method. Here the flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt are combined, the butter and about two-thirds of the milk and eggs are added, and the batter is beaten until thick and fluffy, about a minute. In the second stage, the rest of the milk and eggs are poured in and the batter is beaten for half a minute more. It is touted for the tender texture it promotes in cakes. Upon trying it on our working recipe for yellow cake, we produced a cake that was indeed more tender. In addition, its consistency was improved; no longer crumbly, the cake was now fine-grained and melting, and, interestingly enough, it did not seem overly sweet. 
While our recipe development involved more than just switching from the conventional to the two-stage method of mixing, we were, needless to say, pleased with these results. The two-stage method also has the advantage of being simpler, quicker, and more nearly foolproof than the conventional creaming method. Though not nearly as widely used as the conventional method by most home bakers, it certainly has a lot to recommend it. 

RICH AND TENDER YELLOW LAYER CAKE

Makes two 9-inch cakes

To quickly bring the eggs and milk to room temperature (65°F), submerge them in a bowl of warm water for about 10 minutes after mixing them together. Adding the butter pieces to the mixing bowl one at a time prevents the dry ingredients from flying up and out of the bowl.

4 large eggs, room temperature
1/2 cup whole milk, room temperature
2 teaspoons vanilla extract
2 1/4 cups sifted plain cake flour
1 1/2 cups sugar
2 teaspoons baking powder
3/4 teaspoon salt
1/2 pound (2 sticks) unsalted butter, softened, each stick cut into 8 pieces 

1. Adjust oven rack to lower-middle position and heat oven to 350 degrees. Generously grease two 9-by-1 1/2-inch cake pans with vegetable shortening and cover pan bottoms with rounds of parchment paper or wax paper. Grease parchment rounds, dust cake pans with flour, and tap out excess.

2. Beat eggs, milk, and vanilla with fork in small bowl; measure out 1 cup of this mixture and set aside. Combine flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt in bowl of standing mixer fitted with paddle attachment; mix on lowest speed to blend, about 30 seconds. With mixer still running at lowest speed, add butter one piece at a time; mix until butter and flour begin to clump together and look sandy and pebbly, with pieces about the size of peas, 30 to 40 seconds after all butter is added. Add reserved 1 cup of egg mixture and mix at lowest speed until incorporated, 5 to 10 seconds. Increase speed to medium-high (setting 6 on KitchenAid) and beat until light and fluffy, about 1 minute. Add remaining egg mixture (about 1/2 cup) in slow steady stream, about 30 seconds. Stop mixer and thoroughly scrape sides and bottom of bowl. Beat on medium-high until thoroughly combined and batter looks slightly curdled, about 15 seconds longer. (To mix using hand mixer, whisk flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt in large bowl. Add butter pieces and cut into the flour mixture with a pastry blender. Add reserved 1 cup of egg mixture; beat with hand mixer at lowest speed until incorporated, 20 to 30 seconds. Increase speed to high, add remaining egg mixture, and beat until light and fluffy, about 1 minute. Stop mixer and thoroughly scrape sides and bottom of bowl. Beat at high speed 15 seconds longer.)

3. Divide batter equally between prepared cake pans; spread to sides of pan and smooth with rubber spatula. Bake until cake tops are light golden and skewer inserted in center comes out clean, 20 to 25 minutes. (Cakes may mound slightly but will level when cooled.) Cool on rack 10 minutes. Run a knife around pan perimeter to loosen. Invert cake onto large plate, peel off parchment, and re-invert onto lightly greased rack. Cool completely before icing.

COFFEE BUTTERCREAM FROSTING

Makes about 3 cups

If you prefer not to use the raw egg in this recipe for safety reasons, substitute 3 tablespoons of milk. Keep in mind, however, that the texture will be less smooth.

1 1/2 tablespoons instant coffee
1 1/2 tablespoons water
1 1/2 tablespoons vanilla extract
3/4 pound (3 sticks) unsalted butter, softened
3 cups confectioners’ sugar
1 large egg, beaten, or 3 tablespoons milk (see note above)

1. Dissolve coffee in water and add vanilla in small bowl; set aside. Beat butter in bowl of electric mixer fitted with paddle attachment on medium speed until fluffy, about 1 minute. Reduce speed to low and add sugar 1 cup at a time, beating 15 seconds between each addition. Increase speed to medium and beat until smooth, about 3 minutes, scraping sides and bottom of bowl as necessary.

2. Add coffee mixture and egg or milk; beat on low speed to combine. Scrape sides and bottom of bowl with rubber spatula. Increase speed to medium and beat until fluffy, 3 to 4 minutes. (Buttercream may be covered and kept at room temperature for several hours or refrigerated in an airtight container for a week. Bring to room temperature before using.)

ORANGE BUTTERCREAM FROSTING

Follow recipe for Coffee Buttercream Frosting, omitting instant coffee and vanilla, substituting 3 tablespoons orange juice for water, and adding 1 tablespoon grated orange zest along with egg or milk.

LEMON BUTTERCREAM FROSTING

Follow recipe for Coffee Buttercream Frosting, omitting instant coffee and vanilla, substituting 1 1/2 tablespoons lemon juice for water, and adding 1 1/2 tablespoons grated lemon zest along with egg or milk.

CHOCOLATE CREAM FROSTING

Makes about 3 cups

1 1/2 cups heavy cream
16 ounces semisweet chocolate, chopped fine
1/3 cup corn syrup
1 teaspoon vanilla extract

Place chocolate in heatproof bowl. Bring heavy cream to boil in small saucepan over medium-high heat; pour over chocolate. Add corn syrup and let stand 3 minutes. Whisk gently until smooth; stir in vanilla. Refrigerate 1 to 1 1/2 hours, stirring every 15 minutes, until mixture reaches spreadable consistency.




March, 1999
Original article and recipes by Stephen Schmidt
Courtesy of Cooks Illustrated


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## shawtycat (Feb 6, 2002)

All-Purpose Birthday Cake 
For a white cake with perfect, fine-grained texture, don’t beat the egg whites prior to mixing. 

Challenge: White layer cakes have been the classic type of birthday cake for over a hundred years. White cake is simply a basic butter cake made with egg whites instead of whole eggs. The whites produce the characteristic color, and they also make the cake soft and fine-grained. Unfortunately, the white cakes that we have baked over the years, though good enough, always fell short of our high expectations. They came out a little dry and chewy -- one might say cottony -- and we noticed they were riddled with tunnels and small holes. What were we doing wrong?

Solution: Every traditional recipe for white cake calls for stiffly beaten egg whites folded into the batter at the end. We began to suspect that it was the beaten egg whites that were forming the large air pockets and those unsightly holes. We were able to fix this problem by mixing the egg whites with the milk before beating them into the flour-and-butter mixture. The results were fantastic. The cake was not only fine-grained and holeless, but to our surprise, it was also larger and lighter than the ones we'd prepared with beaten whites. And the method couldn't be simpler, quicker, or more nearly failureproof.

CLASSIC WHITE LAYER CAKE WITH BUTTER FROSTING AND RASPBERRY-ALMOND FILLING

Two-Layer Cake: Serves 12

If you have forgotten to bring the milk and egg white mixture to room temperature, set the bottom of the glass measure containing it in a sink of hot water and stir until the mixture feels cool rather than cold, around 75 degrees. Cake layers can be wrapped and stored for one day; frosting can be covered with plastic wrap and set aside at room temperature for several hours. Once assembled, the cake should be covered with an inverted bowl or cake cover and refrigerated. Under its coat of frosting, it will remain fresh for two to three days. Bring it to room temperature before serving. There is enough frosting to pipe a border around the base and top of the cake. If you want to decorate the cake more elaborately, you should make one and a half times the frosting recipe. You may also substitute lemon curd for the raspberry jam in the filling.

Classic White Cake
2 tablespoons solid vegetable shortening
2 heaping tablespoons all-purpose flour for flouring pans
1 cup milk, at room temperature
3/4 cup egg whites (about 6 large or 5 extra large) at room temperature
2 teaspoons almond extract
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
2 1/4 cups plain cake flour
1 3/4 cups sugar
4 teaspoons baking powder
1 teaspoon salt
12 tablespoons unsalted butter, softened

Butter Frosting 
1/2 pound (2 sticks) unsalted butter, softened
1 pound (4 cups) confectioners´ sugar
1 tablespoon vanilla extract
1 tablespoon milk
Pinch salt

Raspberry-Almond Filling
1/2 cup (2 1/2 ounces) blanched slivered almonds, toasted and chopped coarse
1/3 cup seedless raspberry jam

1. For the cake: Set oven rack in middle position. (If oven is too small to cook both layers on a single rack, set racks in upper-middle and lower-middle positions.) Heat oven to 350 degrees. Coat bottom and sides of two 9-inch-by-1 1/2-inch or -2-inch round cake pans with 1 tablespoon shortening each. Sprinkle 1 heaping tablespoon of all-purpose flour into each pan; roll pans in all directions to coat. Invert pans and rap sharply to remove excess flour.

2. Pour milk, egg whites, and extracts into 2-cup glass measure, and mix with fork until blended.

3. Mix cake flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt in bowl of electric mixer at slow speed. Add butter; continue beating at slow speed until mixture resembles moist crumbs, with no powdery ingredients remaining.

4. Add all but 1/2 cup of milk mixture to crumbs and beat at medium speed (or high speed if using handheld mixer) for 1 1/2 minutes. Add remaining 1/2 cup of milk mixture and beat 30 seconds more. Stop mixer and scrape sides of bowl. Return mixer to medium (or high) speed and beat 20 seconds longer. 

5. Divide batter evenly between two prepared cake pans; using rubber spatula, spread batter to pan walls and smooth tops. Arrange pans at least 3 inches from the oven walls and 3 inches apart. (If oven is small, place pans on separate racks in staggered fashion to allow for air circulation.) Bake until cake needle or toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean, 23 to 25 minutes.

6. Let cakes rest in pans for 3 minutes. Loosen from sides of pans with a knife, if necessary, and invert onto greased cake racks. Reinvert onto additional greased racks. Let cool completely, about 1 1/2 hours.

7. For the frosting: Beat butter, confectioners’ sugar, vanilla, milk, and salt in bowl of electric mixer at slow speed until sugar is moistened. Increase speed to medium (high if using handheld mixer); beat, stopping twice to scrape down bowl, until creamy and fluffy, about 1 1/2 minutes. Avoid overbeating, or frosting will be too soft to pipe.

8. For the filling: Before assembling cake, set aside 3/4 cup of the frosting for decoration. Spread small dab of frosting in center of cake plate to anchor cake, and set down one cake layer. Combine H cup of remaining frosting with almonds in small bowl and spread over first layer. Carefully spread jam on top, then cover with second cake layer. Spread frosting over top and sides of assembled cake. Pipe reserved frosting around perimeter of cake.

May, 1995
Original article and recipes by Stephen Schmidt
Courtesy of Cooks Illustrated


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## alexia (Mar 3, 2002)

Shawtycat, if I use your birthday cake recipe I have two questions. 

First will it hold up to being unmolded from a star shaped mold?

Second, would there be a problem if I were to use butter to grease the pan instead of shortening (the mother's request). As I'm worried about unmolding it to begin with I don't want to do anything to jinx it.

Thanks.


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## kthull (Oct 9, 2002)

Alexia: 

I made a close version of this cake for my son's communion. I definitely used butter to grease the pans.

I can't exactly vouch for the star shape, but I can tell you the cake was sturdy. I had never worked with a half sheet before this cake and made the foolhardy mistake of trying to put the second layer onto the filling by myself. Maybe that's easy for the seasoned pros here, but my cake board bent halfway and I dropped the top layer into the filling. You can imagine the mess and the amount of handling and bending that cake layer was subjected to. Aside from a minor crack that would be covered anyway, it held up well.

Man that was a disaster.  But the end results were fabulous and everyone raved about the cake.


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## wsd (Apr 15, 2004)

Can someone give me the recipes to the yellow, white and chocolate cakes they make using fluid flex?


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

quote from "Professional Baking" by Wayne Gisslen:

"Although there are many types of sponge cakes they all have one characteristic in common: they start with an egg foam.....These are usually whole-egg foams, but in some cases the base foam is a yolk foam, and an egg white foam is folded in at the end of the procedure."

So my question is: when y'all refer to your "sponge", is it always a true sponge. I attended a demo by Keegan Gerhard and he kept saying "sponge" to refer to wedding cakes. So I wondered: Do chefs in other parts of the country just primarily use sponge cakes or have all cakes come to be refered to as "sponges" whether they are a true sponge cake or not?

Do you all use only sponges for wedding cakes?

I live in the deep south. I work at the premier cake shop in town. We wouldn't dream of making a wedding cake (or birthday, for that matter) out of sponge cake. Sure it would be MUCH easier to work with, but our customers would tell all there friends how that the cake was beautiful but wasn't great and didn't have a good texture. Down here people want their cakes sweet, buttery and very tender. We freeze our cakes and work with them while they are partially frozen, otherwise there is no way we could handle them without them falling apart. (esp. the larger ones) When I enrobe a cake I handle it as little as possible and keep it cold until setup. And I NEVER press on the top of the cake. Our cakes just wont stand up to it. But people go on and on about how good the are.

Also, I occasionally use mix for white or yellow cakes (never for chocolate) And I challenge anybody to taste the difference from it and a scratch cake. They've come a long way in R and D in some of these companies. And it still takes knowledge and skill to prepare a good mix cake.

At our shop we make a caramel cake that is hugely popular. It was voted best cake in town. We charge alot for them and sell a ton of them. But my hubby (who is originally from New York) and his family dont care for it. The wife of another employee confessed to me that she doesn't like it either. She is also from New York. A couple of other people have said to me that they are "ok" but "too sweet". They were from the north also. However I have had many friends and relatives tell me it is absolutely the best cake they have ever tasted. (all originally southern).

So it has become obvious to me that we here in the south have somewhat different tastes in desserts.

interesting

eeyore


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

I've experienced many many times how there is such varying opinions in what tastes good from region to region, ethnicity, and individuality. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is taste. I've learned to adapt. 

In my latest instance of adaptation, I've learned that the community I live in now is much more into organic, whole grain, fresh fruit, healthy, low fat kinds of items. 2 hours away, in Seattle, I had clientele that wanted to eat pure sin in the form of refined sugar, butter and white flour. If they were going to eat dessert, it was gonna be 100% decadence. 

I've had to work with a few brides and their families that came from the South......a lot of them were disappointed with what we had to offer up here in the North corner. I remember one instance in particular where the father of one bride was horrified that we put real fresh flowers on cakes. 
He exclaimed that if there were going to be flowers on the wedding cake he wanted to be able to eat them!!! 

And speaking for myself, I detest, no make that LOATHE Red Velvet Cake. I cannot for the life of me, understand it. I refuse to make it. If a bride has her heart set on Red Velvet I send her elsewhere. Many Southerners swear it's the best cake ever. I don't see it. Must be the Northerner in me.

In regard to the sponge thing......I can personally say that I've never used true "sponge" in a wedding cake. Nobody likes it, and personally, I just see it as a mediocre cake "disc" keeping all the filling together! No bride or client I have ever consulted with has ever opted for sponge cake (I don't have a set repertoire....I let the couples choose-except NO RED VELVET). 
Chiffon, yes, sponge no.

So that's my take on it......with the exception of the Fluid Flex (or Nutex) sponge cakes. Actually I don't even know why they're called sponge cakes, because they certainly don't taste like sponge. They're sort of in a class of their own.....which is why I think they're so good.


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

I appreciate your reply. It's very interesting. 

I feel I have more refined tastes than the average person here in town because of my training and experience as a chef. BUT: I still think desserts should be sweet. lol (as should tea....but NOT cornbread. But thats another forum.) I mean, what differentiates desserts from the savory part of the meal? Is it not sweetness? I have been to places around the country and even some local fine dining rest. and I was very dissappointed with dessert because it wasn't sweet. So, I want to be a sophisticated, trendy pastry chef...but I guess I just cant get the southernness out of me. lol Im not denying the importance of flavor. Of course, it is the most important thing. But, chicken piccata has alot of flavor, however it will never qualify as dessert. 

Hmmmm...I wonder how much refined sugar Ive consumed in my life....between desserts and tea--OMG it must be a ton. lol I wonder how much sugar is consumed in the south compared to the rest of the country. Interesting.

Side thought: Ive been studying wines and have tried to become an "expert" on wine. But Ive discovered that drinking my rediculously sweet tea all my life has ruined my palate. 

OK, now, red velvit cakes: I stopped making them several years ago because I couldn't justify any reason for eating all that dye. The shop where I work now refused to make them for a long time. But recently they've decided to make them for special orders. I dont know why. Well, when we make them for orders or the occasional grooms cake (thankfully no armodillos yet) we always have extra so we put them in the case. So, sad to say, we now sell red velvit cakes.

So I tried one the other day after reading your post just to see if I could tell what all the hype is about. I haven't tried a red velvit cake in many years. It was ok. Good I guess. But I dont see what the big deal is. We talked about it at work and all we could come up with is that maybe the extra acid combined with the cream cheese is what people like so much. We hope to do a blind taste test soon. If we do Ill let you know what happens.

eeyore


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## chefpeon (Jun 14, 2006)

Of course, desserts should be sweet, but I think "sweet" should be an "element" of the dessert, and not overpowering. I believe the flavor should be the main focus, with sweetness as a part of it. If people just want plain ol ''sweet" for dessert, I'll give 'em a spoonful of sugar!

For instance, if I make a lemon dessert, I want lemon to be the focus, not the sugar. Same with chocolate, or berry, or caramel......flavor first, sweetness second.....or third or fourth.......:crazy:


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## eeyore (Nov 26, 2000)

It seems we're on the same page. Because I did say that flavor is the most important thing. And we agree that desserts should have sweetness.

Personally I dont consider fresh fruit with creme fraiche on it a dessert. It is a salad. 

I guess it is just a matter of degrees. And that is a very subjective thing. Obviously regionality plays a part as well as just personal tastes.

It just worries me that "sweet" has become a dirty word in the pastry business.

I do like European style desserts and pastries that are less sweet. and I love dark chocolate desserts that really let the flavor of the cocoa come through.

But I also love some desserts that are really sweet. Not lacking in flavor. You can have a flavorful dessert that is also really sweet. They are not mutually exclusive. (I know this because I eat such desserts often. lol)

eyore


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