# French cooking



## nathan kreider (Jul 13, 2012)

Hey guys, I'm currently doing my apprentice at a mediterranean fine dining restaurant, but when I've finished my apprentice I want to get into French fine dining, and I want to start learning techniques and basics straight away. I already own Larousse Gastronomique, and it is a massive insight into gastronomy, but what other cookbooks/glossaries would you guys recommend to a first year apprentice?


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

Phillip Pauli's book is great: [product="24838"]Classical Cooking The Modern Way Recipes Third Edition [/product] He is the 3rd generation master chef directing the training of Swiss chefs.

Harold McGee's book is also a must have: [product="6283"]On Food And Cooking The Science And Lore Of The Kitchen [/product] He explains how and why with out any dogma.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

2 older books I have used over the years    Guide Culinaire by   A Escoffier refered to by many as the bible.  and Modern French Culinasry Art  by H Palapratt...all scratch ,no shortcuts, old school.


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## nathan kreider (Jul 13, 2012)

Coup-de-Feu said:


> Phillip Pauli's book is great: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000O5B654/?tag=cheftalk-sl-20 He is the 3rd generation master chef directing the training of Swiss chefs.
> 
> Harold McGee's book is also a must have: He explains how and why with out any dogma.


Harold's book I will definitely be purchasing! But Pauli's is still a maybe just due to the price tag, once I have money in the bank, it will be heading to my collection.


ED BUCHANAN said:


> 2 older books I have used over the years Guide Culinaire by A Escoffier refered to by many as the bible. and Modern French Culinasry Art by H Palapratt...all scratch ,no shortcuts, old school.


These two books, so old and elegant, but so pricey, even for second hand copies. Haha. These books will be on my long-term savings list. Thank you for these recommendations. And I definitely do not plan on taking any shortcuts, when I open my restaurant, I won't accept anything but perfection.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Nathan Kreider said:


> ... when I open my restaurant, I won't accept anything but perfection.


Bettcha a nickel that time will change that to _I won't accept anything that doesn't make a PROFIT! _/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I accept cash, credit cards, and personal checks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

This is the book all French culinary students have to study. It's an excellent reference, but AFAIK only exists in French. Still if you're going to get into French Fine dining you might want to pick up on the French terms.

La Cuisine de Reference, by Michel Maincent Morel:





  








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Let me know if you'd like to see an example of how a certain topic/dish is explained in the book and I'll post a picture.





  








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## nathan kreider (Jul 13, 2012)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Bettcha a nickel that time will change that to _I won't accept anything that doesn't make a PROFIT! _/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


The restaurant I currently work in, the executive chef double checks every dish before it leaves. Sometimes even pulling the dish itself apart to be sure (Mainly salads and stuff). So perfection is a must for me.


French Fries said:


> This is the book all French culinary students have to study. It's an excellent reference, but AFAIK only exists in French. Still if you're going to get into French Fine dining you might want to pick up on the French terms.
> 
> La Cuisine de Reference, by Michel Maincent Morel:
> 
> ...


Ah, if only I spoke French. I want to learn the basics, but that will take some time as languages aren't my forte.


cheflayne said:


> I accept cash, credit cards, and personal checks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif


+1 for humor. ;D


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

BPI has cuisine de reference in English. I can't remember what it is called in English, but the title is printed in the first page where all their other books are listed. Here is BPI's web site: http://www.editions-bpi.fr/Produits/E0184.asp FrenchFries, look in the first few pages of your BPI book and you will find the name of the english edition.

You can legally get Escoffier's book for free and in english: http://archive.org/details/cu31924000610117 (you have no excuse not to read it now)

Paulli's book is only $14.00. IMO it is the best starting out book written. It has been refined over 3 generations of father to son and every Swiss cook starts with it.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

Nat  Thats the way it should be. Never put out or accept 2nd best.  Your chef deserves to be the chef.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

Coup-de-Feu said:


> BPI has cuisine de reference in English. I can't remember what it is called in English, but the title is printed in the first page where all their other books are listed.


I looked at the first page where all their books are listed and the only one listed in English is the one you link to, which is not Cuisine de Reference. Apparently Cuisine de Reference was never translated.


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

FrenchFries:

 I have the 1993 Cuisine De Reference - the white one.  I am sure there is a version available in English because I ordered one for a friend less than a year ago.  But I have looked and looked on the web now and just can't find it.  -bummer.

It will show up one of these days.

CDF


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The closest thing to an English translation of _Cuisine de Reference_ is: _ Practical Kitchen Work; The Basic Arts of Cooking_, by (duh) Maincent-Morel. It's a very expensive book, but a web check for used copies shows they're around for well under $20.

A friend has it, I borrowed it to look it over, and think the book is stuck in the eighties -- but to each his own. On the one hand, the most basic techniques don't change much, even if presentations and styles do; but on the other, we're not talking about a fried pork chop and two veg -- high end food is very trendy. It's a good idea to find a few books which are good on technique AND _au courant_.

I'm all for _reading_ the classics from Escoffier, Pellaprat, Mme St Ainge, etc., but don't think you'll get much insight into modern cooking or garner many recipes which are usable today. There are just so many things we don't do or serve which were popular before WWII. I learned quite a bit of what I know from Pellaprat in particular, but there are easier and more efficient ways to go about _learning_.

As an observation: When someone recommends learning to cook from the classic writers, Escoffier in particular, he's _usually_ (but not always) saying more about himself and/or the type of food he likes than about learning to cook at home or professionally in the modern world. After all, why not recommend Careme as enthusiastically? One thing you do learn from the classic chefs is that each was a revolutionary force in his or her own time, and that the essence of each chef's revolution was a celebration ingredients and simplicity. Certainly, there's no better lesson than that. Nor can it be denied that the classic writers are good for modern inspiration. BUT it's a good idea to bear in mind that there's not a lot of demand for _cuisses de nymphes à l'aurore _ any more.

For someone like Nathan,_ Mastering the Art of French Cooking_ _I and II_, by Julia Child, _et al_ is going to be a helluva lot more useful. But sad to say, while it's a lot more practical Child is quite dated as well.

I recently received a _Modernist Cuisine At Home_, by Myhrvold and Bilet, and it as up to date for both techniques and recipes -- although it's also quite expensive. The professional, 5 volume version is more complete, but is impractically expensive and probably inappropriate for Nathan's skill level. He can dip a toe into it and see if it suits for free by downloading the .pdf version.

BDL


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Jacque Pepin's Complete Techniques is a decent way to get started too.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> I recently received a _Modernist Cuisine At Home_, by Myhrvold and Bilet, and it as up to date for both techniques and recipes -- although it's also quite expensive. The professional, 5 volume version is more complete, but is impractically expensive and probably inappropriate for Nathan's skill level. He can dip a toe into it and see if it suits for free by downloading the .pdf version.
> 
> BDL


Hi BDL, where would find a downloadable .pdf version of that book if you don't mind me asking? Thanks! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

Try: http://www.ebooks-share.net/modernist-cuisine-at-home/


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

PeteMcCracken said:


> Try: http://www.ebooks-share.net/modernist-cuisine-at-home/


Thanks but that looks like a scam (after you download a password protected PDF you need to go to a new URL where you have to fill out all kinds of personal information (email, address, name, age, sex etc...) before you can get your password, my guess is they then sell that info to spammers....


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## nathan kreider (Jul 13, 2012)

French Fries said:


> Thanks but that looks like a scam (after you download a password protected PDF you need to go to a new URL where you have to fill out all kinds of personal information (email, address, name, age, sex etc...) before you can get your password, my guess is they then sell that info to spammers....


This is spot on. Many people still fall for it though. And generally if it asks for a mobile number, they will charge you like $10/week.


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## chicagoterry (Apr 3, 2012)

There's a new, rather massive French cookbook in English by Paul Bocuse called The Complete Bocuse, which might be worth a look.


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## nathan kreider (Jul 13, 2012)

Well, I found a version of Le Guide Culinaire for $60, but the website is out of stock for now. Think I might buy The Complete Bocuse.


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## coup-de-feu (Aug 4, 2010)

Nathan Kreider said:


> Well, I found a version of Le Guide Culinaire for $60, but the website is out of stock for now. Think I might buy The Complete Bocuse.


I understand if you want to have the book in your hand. But before you drop $60 or change your mind of it... "Le guide culinaire" and "The Escoffier Cookbook" are the same books. There is a link to download the book for free up above, and if you want it you can get it for under $20 :


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

If you really want to base current culinary education on a book which was written and first published a century ago, and which includes recipes which are by and large completely passe and techniques which are by and large completely outmoded -- definitely go for the Escoffier. The nice thing about Bocuse is that _Cuisine Gourmandaise_ and _Nouvelle Cuisine_ come out of the sixties and are merely four decades out of date instead of ten.

Up to you.

BDL


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## chicagoterry (Apr 3, 2012)

So, BDL...

Is the Bocuse also bound to be hopelessly out of date? I admit, I haven't read it but it seemed to me Bocuse would be more timely than many other books mentioned.

I rather like the Essential Pepin, which came out last year, but I wouldn't consider it explicitly French. It has a nice little "techniques" DVD that comes with it.


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I agree Escoffier and Bocuse both are a bit aged as far as technique. They are however both regarded as basic bibles of French Cuisine.  There are no convienence foods used  in either .Everything is basic scratch. Which to me is the correct way to learn. Over the years I have worked in many places and was faced with things that had to be prepared  and somehow one of the ingredients was not available or on hand. By having the knowlege of Guide Culiaire behind me, I knew what to use instead. to achieve a like outcome. I don't say use all the techniques given in these books, but they are great to be able to refer to.. Almost all classical cooking today is based on Careme, Escoffier,Vatel and even although much later Bocuse..They all paved the way.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> Is the Bocuse also bound to be hopelessly out of date? I admit, I haven't read it but it seemed to me Bocuse would be more timely than many other books mentioned. I rather like the Essential Pepin, which came out last year, but I wouldn't consider it explicitly French. It has a nice little "techniques" DVD that comes with it.


It depends what you're trying to do.

The classics make for fascinating reading if you're at all interested in food. The recipes, and especially the ideas behind them, will help a home cook move away from the sort of pedestrian dishes which people associate with mediocre home cooking. Some techniques, e.g., trussing a chicken, don't ever change.

_The Essential Pepin_ is a bit different from the great books by Beard, Bocuse, Escoffier, Mme. E. Saint-Ange, Pellaprat, et al, in that Pepin is almost entirely technique driven; and the recipes used are evergreen classics. An omelette is an omelette is an omelette.

The nice thing about Beard, Bocuse, Child, Escoffier, Pellaprat and Mme. E. Saint-Ange is that you can, at least, associate them with last century cooking. Vatel is from the 17th century, and Careme from the late 18th - early 19th. I'm not sure where you draw the line of modernity for a practical resource, but it's a line which must be drawn. And yes, the "Nouvelle" recipes you'll find in Bocuse aren't nearly as dated as Pellaprat's (who pretty much defined the academic "cordon bleu" style for the pre WWII period and remained important through the sixties and the advent of guys like Michelle Guerard and Paul Bocuse), but Bocuse is ancient compared to Eric Ripert and Thomas Keller -- and those guys aren't the young Turks they were a decade or so ago either.

A lot of high-end cooking is fashion. You have to keep swimming or you'll drown. Nature of the beast.

Also, don't get me wrong. I learned a lot from the old guys (especially _Pellaprat_) when I was first learning to cook, and ever since. I not only have the greatest respect but most of their cookbooks too. However, if you're looking to put together the sort of skills and repertoire which help you in a modern, "fine dining" restaurant -- then the classic works by the great chefs aren't much help from either the recipe or technical standpoints. Simply put, there are much better sources. Here, the issue is that they're not the right books to help Nathan learn what he wants to do. If you asked me which classic would be my first recommendation for Nathan it would be _Mastering the Art of French Cooking_.

BDL


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## chicagoterry (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the explanation, BDL.

I work in a bookstore with a pretty big cookbook section and I can happily say that people still buy Mastering the Art of French Cooking pretty regularly.


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## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

boar_d_laze said:


> The closest thing to an English translation of _Cuisine de Reference_ is: _ Practical Kitchen Work; The Basic Arts of Cooking_, by (duh) Maincent-Morel. (...) I (...) think *the book is stuck in the eighties*


Hi BDL, I was wondering if you could expand on that? I'm not sure exactly how close _Practical Kitchen Work_ is to Cuisine de Reference, but I'd love to understand what exactly is "stuck in the eighties" about the techniques I'm learning. I'm sure techniques have changed since the 80s, I'm just not sure which techniques or how they've changed... I'm sure you probably can't explain everything that has changed since the 80s (that would probably be way too much to ask) but maybe if you could give a couple of examples? Or the main lines?

One other thing I don't understand: you recommend "Mastering the Art of French Cooking". To be honest I've never read that book ... but wasn't that written mostly in the 60s and 70s?

I'm asking those questions because I've read those kinds of comments ("stuck in the eighties") a few times, from you or from others, here and elsewhere... and never fully grasped what they meant. I feel like I may be missing on something (or maybe I'm simply stuck in the eighties myself and I don't even realize it).

Thank you! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif (now where is that Depeche Mode mixtape I had lying around...?)


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## ed buchanan (May 29, 2006)

I am stuck in the  60s  70s  80s  90s and now . I learned from every era  and pro's from every era , and wouldn't trade it for anything.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

I'll throw in two cents here. 

I think many of the changes in cooking related publications reflect much broader social changes. There is a greater acceptance of other cultures and cuisines then ever before and hence a greater mixing of the foods from those cultures.  The ideological "barrier" between industrial food processes and 'real" cooking has been broken thanks to Ferran Adria and others so there is a greater awareness and inclusion of scientific approaches in day to day cooking in professional kitchens. As a result, much of what was taught by tradition is now being questioned scientifically and often found to be lacking in truth. Perhaps ironically, there has been a simultaneous move away from packaged industrial foods towards a return to a more farm to table approach and a returning appreciation of sophisticated simplicity in professional cooking, however it may be achieved. Various food related illnesses get more attention all the time and thus affect how chefs must approach menu planning, production and customer service. None of these can be completely covered in any one publication but many of these areas may be touched on in any of them. 

     Whatever publication you use to begin your acquisition of knowledge, it is important to remember that there is always more to learn. Perhaps the greatest barrier to be broken in recent years is the idea that anyone will ever learn all there is to know. Despite any status as chefs or professionals, we should all remain students at heart and continue to learn from many sources.


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## chef maurice (Feb 10, 2013)

check out  "Modern French Culinary Art "  H.P/ Pellaprat    

        Also "Buffets and Receptions "   by multiple authors  

Thes books are about 1000 pages each       Mo


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