# Choux...need HELP!



## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Hi everyone!
Need help from you professional bakers! As an amateur, I have never made choux successfully in my life  . Sometimes they don't puff up enough; sometimes they sadly go down after cooking; sometimes I add too many eggs and they taste like crèpes; even when they look good, the taste is totally different from the ones you buy in a pastry shop. So, I have a lot of questions:

1)Flour: which type? I have always used normal white flour, anything better?

2)Eggs: this is the only ingredient whose amount varies according to the different recipes (suppose it depends from the egg size, that is never specified) but how could you realize when they're enough? Most recipes say "add more eggs until the dough is smooth enough" but I need an easy way to know when I reach the right consistency...

3)Procedure: how long are you supposed to cook the butter/flour/water mix before adding the eggs? The dough takes about 1 min to stop sticking from the walls of the pan, is it enough? (One of my recipes says 4 mins, does it make sense?)

4)Baking: how long and which temp? Ventilating or not? Do you think that a home oven can be as good as professional ovens? How long should choux be kept aside into the warm oven when cooked?

Obviously I know that, like bread, it's impossible to make "professional" choux at home...but being able to make something decent would be enough for me. Any good trick is welcome! 

Thanks in advance,

Pongi


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Pongi,

You definately can make great choux puffs at home. They don't require anything special at all. I would suggest staying with a recipe exactly until you become comfortable in what the correct consistancy should be like before you bake by feel.

1.All purpose flour is fine.
2.Use grade A large eggs in all baking recipes as you learn. Otherwise your converting recipes and thats one more place you could make a mistake. An mistakes aren't that fun (unless your rich).
3.Procedure: bring your water and butter to a full boil then dump your flour in all at once. Stir vigerously until it becomes a paste. Cook it for ABOUT 2 or 3 minutes. The cooking does firm up your paste but it's not MANDATORY.
4. Bake, I like 375 it gives it a better lift then 350. You don't need a convection oven!

Judging when they are done: They do require a rich golden color to dry out the insides enough. A full tray at 375 in you home oven making small eclair shells should take about 40 to 50 minutes (but that's a guess because I don't bake by time) Just know that they take much longer then many items. Some people prick them with a screwer to open the puff up and let steam escape so the center dries....but I don't care for that.

If you aren't very good at piping you can scoop the paste. 

You can flavor the paste and pipe many interesting things with it. But when your really for more, come back and we'll talk more.

My recipe: (a very small batch)

1 c. water
1/4c. butter

then:
1 c. flour

off the heat in a mixer you add 4 eggs. 

P.S. Your problems sound like your adding too many eggs and or not baking long enough. Don't be scared to let them get good and dark golden. Good luck, let me know how it goes.


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## angrychef (Jan 15, 2001)

I agree with what Wendy has said. 
Here's a little tip to know when you have the right consistency: after adding the eggs and mixing thouroughly, stick a spatula or spoon in the mixture and pull straight up. If the batter forms a "V", meaning the batters hangs from the spoon in a pointed fashion, it's done and the right consistency. The mistake most people make is making the batter too stiff. And also usually the amount of water and eggs in the recipe are the same.
A very hot oven for the first 10-15 minutes is crucial, I start at 400F and then lower to 350F to bake them all the way through. I prefer baking them in a regular oven than convection. As Wendy said, you don't have to prickle them open(specially when you make them by the hundreds!), just bake them long enough to they remain stable and puffed when they are done. 
Have fun baking your chouxs!


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

I weigh everything when I bake so bare with me:

250 ml water
5 g salt
5 g sugar
100 g butter
150 g all-purpose flour
150 g to 200 g eggs (3 to 5 large eggs)

A trick:
For the eggs, I "liquify" the eggs in a measuring cup then pour a little at a time (in 4 instalments), making sure the egg is incorporated between each addition; it's much easier to judge if you need another whole egg or just part of one. That's harder to accomplish when your eggs are whole.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Your advice made me understand a lot of things...just the ones that are never explained in most recipes (I HATE cookbooks that say "bake at medium heat until it's done" or something like that )
I just realize that, in example, I underbake my choux, probably due to the fact that most recipes report a baking time of 10'-15' which seems to be too short according to your posts...but all your suggestions are precious  
I'll keep you updated!

Pongi


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Oh my gosh, what book told you 10 to 15 minutes for choux paste? That's not even funny. Only for thin swan necks....

DEEP golden is a must...


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I've never learned a recipe for Choux paste, and given the vagueness proportions, eg., Kimmies "3-5 eggs" I can see why!   I've always thought that the important things to remember were:

1) Allow the paste to cool a bit before you add the eggs

2) Add the eggs one at a time

3) Don't overbeat the eggs

Kuan

PS: These guys probably make it a lot better than me, and sometimes I wonder if all my tips above are really myths.


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## chefjerome (May 2, 2002)

Try using milk instead of water in your recipe. It will give more flavor and body to the end result. :bounce:


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Kuan those are myths or at least they've become accepted as not necessary. None of those points make a difference. 

Milk is fine, it's more expensive (speaking of which you can even use margerine instead of butter if you were looking at costs). I use milk when I'm making gougeres.


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## w.debord (Mar 6, 2001)

Last night I was looking thru a French cookbook and saw something I'd never heard of before. They made quenelles starting with a choux base. They added fish (flaked) and firm egg whites, seasoning and poached them for 10 to 15 min. then baked them at 375 for another 10 to 15 (coated in sauce) till they slightly puffed. I've never seen choux in a poached context.


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

I KNEW IT! CHEF was full of S....  I was wondering because, as a young saucier, I was always in a hurry, and it NEVER seemed to make a difference!

Kuan


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## m brown (May 29, 1999)

Kuan, your chef was not full of s***, to learn the technique of choux you must learn the process without scrambling eggs! As you learn on your own you will find you do not need to take so much time and care but you must understand how to get there. the journey is it's own reward!

i like to bake the choux at 425 F until golden colour is reached then drop temp to 350 F to dry out center. 


milk makes for a richer flavored and coloured choux and a dash of sugar and salt adds flavor to the choux. 

shortening can be used in place of butter but the taste suffers though the shelf life expands.....

choux can be fried too.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Considering my problems with "normal" choux, I've never made Zeppole, but know the recipe and actually they're fried choux, rolled into sugar after frying. They can be made plain or adding soaked raisins to the dough. The "Zeppole di S. Giuseppe" (Father's Day on March 19) are filled with custard and garnished with candied cherries:lips: 

Pongi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

all good advice. My 2 cents. Evaporation of water is key to sucessful choux. Once your roux is coming off the sides of the pan I like to keep it cooking to release h20, this also eliminates any raw flavor in the end product. Then I work the protiens and cool (blood temp)in a bowl with the paddle running also releasing steam. Small batches need to incorporate each egg seperately. Binding the mixture after each addition. Run the handle of a wooden spoon through you mix like a valley and when its starts to close behind the handle, its ready. I'm like m brown, blast at 425 in the beginning to achieve your final shape as quick as possible to avoid late expansion(cracks), lower and again, remove h2o by baking and drying at a lower temp. I always season with salt and sugar.
I'm to tired to reread, hope this makes sense. Happy mom's day to all.


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

My update:

My 1st attempt was too soft and my choux ended up spreaded on the plate Apart from this, the taste was good...

My 2nd time the dough texture was good and they puffed very well, but I was so concerned about undercooking than (of course) overbaked them, so the shape was right but they were a little too dry inside (my hubby told me they were OK but I like choux a little moister)

The 3rd time everything worked great, YIPPEE!!!:bounce: 
They weren't perfect yet but I was pretty satisfied and filled them with a nice Zabaione mousse (luckily I haven't got all those problems with custards )

The 4th time made fried Zeppole with raisins and found out they're much easier than choux as you don't have to practice with baking times 

As I still have some problems with the right baking time, do you think choux must be still a little moist inside when you take them off the oven (I baked them at 425° for 10 mins and then at 350° for 30-35 mins)
Which changes in their texture are given by additional egg whites
in the batter and/or other fats but butter? 

Thanks again,   

Pongi


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

That's great Pongi. Practice makes perfect.

When your choux are ready, turn the oven off, take them out, puncture them and put them back in the oven, leaving door ajar, for a few minutes.

This should take care of excess moisture, without overdrying them.


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## pjm333 (Nov 6, 2001)

One other thing to do with warm choux paste is to blend it with equal parts of warm pastry cream .."pate basque" and pipe it on a unbaked tart.. ex- put some frangipane with some fruit..pears.apricots etc in a raw tart shell and pipe on the pate basque and bake. It adds alot to a tart i think.

patrick


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Pat,
Does it spread and cook to cover the top of the tart? Does it brown up and bake semi hard to where you can glaze it? Can you put fresh fruit on top of that? I guess I'm asking, how do you serve it?


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## shimmer (Jan 26, 2001)

What is choux exactly? I'm confused between the "drying out" comments and the "paste" comments. Is it a pastry, or a paste?

And what do you do with them/it?

~~Shimmer~~


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Shimmer,

Uncooked, it's a paste that you can pipe onto a sheet tray. (See pic below). The heat of the oven transforms this paste into a beautiful light pastry shell.

Choux pastry is employed just as commonly in sweet as in savoury pastries, but a small amount of sugar is added to the pastry when used in desserts. The most stunning example in the French repertoire of a choux pastry dessert is probably the croquembouche, in which choux puffs are filled with cream and secured into a pyramid shape with caramel.

Just think of eclairs, profiteroles and cream puffs, Paris brest, etc.

You can also make choux fritters: simply heat a pan with about an inch of light vegetable oil in it. Then fill a piping bag with the choux paste, and slice off nuggets of pastry as you pipe. Fry for about 5 minutes until even and golden.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Kimmie:

It my memory serves me correctly, a croquembouche in France is known as a Religieuse. Correct me if I'm wrong, pls.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Wrong! 

A religieuse is a classic individual pastry composed of double-decker cream puffs filled with chocolate cream (or other filling) and decorated with chocolate sauce (or other flavour) and whipped cream.


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

Then what's a croquembouche?


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Definition of Croquembouche

Choux pastry rounds filled with cream and coated with a sugar glaze, often served in a conical tower at special events. 

Coming back to the Nuns or Religieuses, some popular fillings are coffee or vanilla or even maple and frosted with coffee or maple icing.


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## athenaeus (Jul 24, 2001)

Now I am serious and I am addressing to the home cooks and not to the pros.

Do you really think that it worth to make home made choux?

Don't you find it a tremendous trouble, especially when you are having a party and you have to prepare other things too?

You know that I am the person you encourages people to make things from scratch at home but choux?????!!!!!!!!

What do you think?


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## kokopuffs (Aug 4, 2000)

I've always found pate a choux easy to make, especially long before the dinner guests arrive.


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## kimmie (Mar 13, 2001)

Viv,

They freeze beautifully, allowing you to bake them weeks ahead!

Thaw them overnight in fridge and fill the same day, as close as possible to dinner time


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## thebighat (Feb 21, 2001)

Of course make it at home. Time after time, till you get it right. It's one of the building blocks of pastry. Read Thomas Keller about trussing a chicken. Same thing.


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## risa (May 11, 2001)

Choux comes together fairly quickly, so I never thought of buying the frozen choux products. Also, the choux that I can get at the store, frozen or finished products (eg. eclairs) tend to be lacking in flavour or too eggy. The only time I've ever wished I had bought some was when I made a croquembouche for Christmas and didn't plan enough time. It took forever to fill those little puffs then I burned my fingers several times with the caramel "glue." My parents' guests were arriving and I was still in the kitchen cursing at each puff. 

I'm having an odd craving for some choux filled with tuna salad - was that a classic 70s appetizer?


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## pjm333 (Nov 6, 2001)

panini
it doesnt spread...it has a crunchy macaroon texture to it..browns beautifuly and holds fruit with no problem....

pat


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## pongi (Jan 11, 2002)

Vivian,
You have asked just what I was trying to understand when started this thread!
Choux purchased in a pastry shop are obviously the best but very expensive (hope the pros. will forgive me! ) and the commercially available empty choux are usually awful.
Well...I HAD the answer!
When you have a good practice, making choux at home becomes quick (about 15 mins plus baking!) and easy. You only need a good experience about the right consistency of the paste and the right baking time. Being still on the road, I can guarantee that the slightest mistake on those two points dramatically compromises the final result...but, as you can argue reading all the thread, few attempts are enough for an "average" homecook like me to learn enough to get a pretty good result. More, as I said, fried choux are just a piece of cake  

So, my advice is: TRY!
Someone like you can't fail 

Pongi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

pjm333
thx, I'm going to try it this week.
j


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## pjm333 (Nov 6, 2001)

panini
your very welcome

pat


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## lalmajid (Jun 1, 2010)

i have been making choux  pastry had so many problems now after reading all know my mistakes i will try today and see thanks every body


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## lalmajid (Jun 1, 2010)

hi every body ! i have been trying to make macaroons .first 10 times it did'nt have feet than after trying for more than 15 times problem is back of my macaroon is wet and it becomes crunchy i feel so depressed as a student gone through so many web site s tried every thing my oven is convection thanks


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## cakeface (Mar 20, 2010)

lalmajid,

you may have worked this out by now, but to get feet on your macarons,you have to let them sit for 15-30 minutes before putting into the oven.

You don't say what oven temperature you are cooking the macarons at. Although, if you are finding them a bit wet, my advice would be to up the temperature a bit (convection ovens, on average call for temperatures 20 Celcius higher than fan ovens) and if you see a build up on steam forming, open and close the oven quickly to let some of that steam escape.

When ready your macarons should lift off the paper, if some are sticking, pour some water from a squeezy bottle under the silicone paper (between the paper and the tray) the steam produced from contact with the hot tray should lift them straight off.


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## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I never had problems with choux except with a couple of recipes i found that were not very good, but with the right recipe, they come out really easy. My problem is i don;t see what the big deal is, i don;t particularly like them - just an edible container for a filling. If there;'s a lot of filling and not much choux, then i like them - if the filling is good that is.

Homemade are easy enough. Faster than going to the bakery to buy them!

One trick no one mentioned, and i don;t remember where i read it, possibly julia child but possibly not, when they;re cooked, you make a hole in the bottom and scoop out the excess dough, whcih will be less cooked, and therefore hold more moisture. That way the moisture from inside will not make them soggy.

There were a lot of posts and i read them quickly, so if someone did mention it, sorry, i didn;t see it. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## lalmajid (Jun 1, 2010)

thank u so much for the reply  i have a convaction oven i bake it at  150 for 15 min  but my main problem is when they come out they r sticky and not cooked from the bottom if i bake them for 16 min they r still in bad shape from the bottom but over cooked first few batch were so good i feel v depressed but trying again and again  waiting for your reply


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

150C in a convection oven is 302F, which isn't terribly hot.  However, the problem you're desribing sounds like too much heat.  Lower the temperature to the next coolest setting on your dial (137.5C probably -- between 125 and 150) cook for as long as it takes.  If that doesn't help try going the other way with your dial.  Getting the time right time and temperature for any oven will take some experimentation. 

Siduri's tip is a good one.  If you're not going to fill the puffs immediately, split and hollow them as soon as they're cool anyway; it's a way of preventing them from getting soggy down the road. 

DO NOT hold them in a sealed plastic bag, or cover them with anything but a towel.

You realize this was a ten year old thread until you revived it?  You were lucky cakeface and siduri were paying attention.  Good catch.

BDL


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## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

I'm a little amused by this thread. Not ha-ha, but more bemused. As I've said before, I am not a baker. If there's any way of messing up a cake, or pie, or cookies or whatever, I'll either find it or invent it.

But choux is the one thing I've never had problems with. Mix up the paste, drop or pipe the puffs, bake starting at high heat, then lower it. Perfect results every time.

Go figure./img/vbsmilies/smilies/confused.gif

I have noticed two things. First, using power tools, for some reason, makes a more liquidy paste that doesn't hold together as well. Don't ask me why, cuz I haven't a clue. But after learning that lesson I always mix it by hand.

I've got a sort of signpost, too, when adding the eggs. They go in one at a time, and are mixed in just until all the shine dissapears and the paste has a matte finish. Then the next egg is added.


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