# Vegetarians with a "better than thou" attitude



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I hope to bring up something that sometimes gets contentious, but keep it simple and civil.

My view on vegetarianism and veganism is that if one chooses to for health reasons, whatever they may be, there can be a lot of benefits. Being aware of your overall nutrition is important, whether you be carnivore, omnivore, or vegevore (herbivore, of course). I'm not quite an omnivore in the root meaning of the word since I don't drink motor oil, but I do eat meat.

It's the "holier-than-thou" crowd I have a beef with. If you drive a car, you might hit a deer--almost impossible if you weren't driving a car. If you live in a house, chances are that the building of the house killed some burrowing critters or insects. If you ride a bike, obtaining the materials used to make it probably extinguished some little critters.

How about those lions and raptors and ants and fish and bacteria that feed on flesh--are they to be condemned? No, because they were made to do that and for many of them, their very survival depends on it. Are we that much different?

It's debatable whether or not we need meat to be at our healthiest. But the attitude that "I am more pure than you" or whatever form it might take from those who don't eat meat or cheese, is ignorant, if you ask me. 

Although I'm not Buddhist, I believe that we ought to accept ourselves as not being all virtuous--unless we see balance as a virtue.

Sermon over  Nah, it wasn't a sermon, more like an anti-sermon.


----------



## jbd (Mar 17, 2008)

Its nothing more than normal human psychology. Very common in the realms of religion and politics. We as humans need to feel that we have made the right choices or have the right thinking. To safeguard ourdesire to be right we often "demonize" what ever is contrary to our right thinking.

In our society most vegetarians and pretty much all vegans have made a specific choice about the foods they will eat. This is a choice that is contrary to the mainstream food choices of our society. Because it is contrary to the "normal" they must justify it and defend it. This will often be done by taking a moral high ground, especially if the person can not back up their position based on fact--for whatever reasons.

When you run into this situation, regardless of what topic it may involve, it is nothing more than someone wanting to reassure themself taht they have made the right choice---whether the choice is correct or not.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Is this not a "more than you" attitude back at them?:smiles:


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Cheflayne, our society has long rewarded intolerance of the intolerant.

I'm not singling anyone out with that comment. I support OY speaking his/her opinion. I support vegetarians in their opinion. I don't have to agree with any of them. 

Waxing political here, I think the ACLU serves us well in defending unpopular and offensive viewpoints. 

And I think hearing them all is of benefit to me.

Phil


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Not really. I don't think I'm any better than them.


----------



## rpmcmurphy (Jan 8, 2008)

Most people in my generation (mid 20's) aren't vegetarians for any good reason other than it's "hip" to say you are...

Kind of like how this one company I know....(largest PAPER newspaper company in the world) has a "going green" effort......

Am I saying there aren't people who have legitimate beliefs, values, etc. etc. no....but many don't.


----------



## just jim (Oct 18, 2007)

Comedian Jim Gaffigan:

"people ask me "do you know what they do to those chickens?"
No, but it's delicious""


----------



## bughut (Aug 18, 2007)

Whatever the reasons you dont eat flesh is fine _NOW._
There was a time (not that long ago) that vegetarianism was looked on as 
Hippyish, odd, difficult, Now we all cater for it. We also cater for vegan diets. Gluten free and a few more etc's

If you can, why not keep the punters happy... On the menus I see, you'll pay as much for an aubergine dish as a steak. Great GP. Win win

You can never win with a green argument. There always seems to be a down side and it always seems to end up budhist-like. "what about the ants you killed digging up your organic potatoes??)

The one thing I do encourage whole heartedly, is giving the meat we do eat a better lifestyle and a decent end.

We only deal with free range now


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

My comment was strictly tongue in cheek, hence the turning smiley face!


----------



## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

It's not only vegetarians who look down from their ivory towers and pass judgements on others. 

Some carnivores are also snobbish. I realize there are definate differences in meats, where they are raised, what they are fed, how they were processed, etc. , and I prefer to purchase the highest quality whenever possible, and whenever my budget allows. I try hard, however, to be tolerant, and avoid being critical of those who don't share my viewpoint. 

Re: vegetarians, though. Don't you just love it when someone says "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat chicken and fish" ??


----------



## docsmith (Aug 4, 2008)

:crazy: Yea I've heard that one too, especially involving fish and I just have to wonder how stupid people are some times.

Personally I long ago developed a magic shield which repels the ones who are on a quasi-religious stance to 'convert' me to vegetarianism. 

Its one line.

"Well I like my veal tortured."


----------



## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

I have long been one to be supportive of any and everyone believing any thing, be it out there crazy or boringly mundane, they wish. As nutty as I am I can't be throwing too many stones.

 I prefer that whatever anyone chooses to believe or practice be at least half way thought out. But even if your logic is flawed, your practices knee jerk or driven by preference as opposed to conviction you won't hear a preachy peep out of me unless you A: ask my opinion (oh, and should I add that I get to go all preachy here because I consider myself "asked") or B: begin a rude attack on the wacko stuff I choose to believe in.

I have smiled and nodded my way through more out of context and self-aggrandizing speeches on why someone chooses the lifestyle they do than I care to remember. I usually chalk it up to a person who needs to prove that they are a person of moral enlightenment or advertise their socially conscious deep thinking personality. I try and refrain from suggesting what they really need is a therapist and a burger.

For some reason the animal rights people chafe my bum more than most people with an agenda (agendas in and of themselves aren't a bad thing). I believe in good stewardship of the environment. Elevating animals to equal status with humans seems ridiculous to me, but I can wrap my noggin around how you arrived at your belief system. I often consider these people sweet, naïve, but sweet.
If you don't eat meat because you think pigs are people too, fine. However, I'm not giving up my bacon because of you, and it wouldn't be a wise idea to interrupt my meal to let me know what a miserable human being I am because I'm having steak and you're having tofu.

The absolute worst, that makes my head spin around and awakens some very primitive desire to strangle someone, are those who tout eschewing meat for socio-political economic reasons but ignore their other habits and preferences that wreak the same or worse consequences that they say they working to stamp out. 

Case in point: During my starving student days I helped organize a going away party for a much loved prof whose contract had not been renewed. It was a pot luck in the woods around a fire affair. Our pathetic resources yielded horrible cheap pizza and even cheaper beer for everyone. 
Most everyone knew each other, but from somewhere came the couple who didn't just decline the pepperoni offered but proceeded to vehemently accuse the rest of us of aiding the perpetuation of poverty through out the world by consuming meat.
How could we be so ignorant and hateful to not know that it takes x metric tons of grain to raise a cow to slaughter and the starving people of the planet could feast on corn if it weren't for our insidious and insatiable desire for pepperoni and cheese?

All of which might have been bearable if they hadn't arrived in a tricked out SUV wearing $200 leather shoes, along with leather belts and jewelry, and their food contribution was (what I at the time appraised to be) about $50 worth of fixings that yielded a half dozen tofu bean sprout pita sandwiches.

Yes, the starving people of the world are grateful for their sacrifice and we were so ashamed. Needless to say, I think they felt a little unwelcomed after that.


----------



## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

WoW :look:


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

People who eat a lot of meat sweat the smell of dead animal just like alcoholics sweat that weird alcohol smell.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Your story, Izbnso, reminds me of a bicylcle trip we once took through the Lake Champlain valley. One of those guided tour type things. 

Everybody else in the group had announced that they were vegetarians. That night, when we dined at the inn we were staying at, there was salmon on the menu. And they all ordered it.

Of course I had to wonder, sotto vocce, what kind of bush a salmon grew on.


----------



## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

And those who eat a lot of beans, broccoli & cauliflower (to name just a few) ... um, well .... I think you know. :look:


----------



## docsmith (Aug 4, 2008)

:lol: 

(ten characters)


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

LOL or just 4


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I knew a vegetarian guy who ate a heck of a lot of cheese and was overweight.

I know a family who has a motto, "We don't do fruit".

Neither is healthy, at least in my opinion. I also think that what you choose to eat is your personal decision, and to make it a religious, philosophical or political issue is fine as long as you're not preaching to others.

That's not to say that cannibals are ok in my book, at least not when they're hungry and they're looking at me and debating seasonings.


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

I don't know about that. The preaching can come in a lot of ways, including just the demand for the item. Think about it in a cross-cultural way and not just in the bland American veggie v meatie way. If you eat a lot of a particular spice, not only do you start to smell like said spice through the sweat, but everything around the kitchen and places where you've had your food starts to smell that way too. That is influencing others without having to say a word.

As for the beans, broccoli and such... that's just again another way to make your lifestyle impose upon others.

You are what you eat and you smell like it too.


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I grew up in India, where vegetarianism is common for religious reasons. The "highest" Hindu caste is strictly vegetarian. Partly because of this, India has imo the most diverse and tasty vegetarian cuisine in the world.

Vegetarianism was not just an "alternate" choice, but a universally accepted part of Indian culture. I didn't sense anybody being judgemental of others' diets, although I was a kid at the time. I not only had meat dishes, but also so many delicious choices of vegetarian food. One of my favorite things to have for lunch is basmati rice with a certain spiced-up lentil sauce (Assam-style dal) and a certain type of spiced veges on the side, that I know as bhaji. If it tastes delicious, it makes no difference to me whether it's vegetarian or not.:bounce: And most desserts are vegetarian, no?:crazy:


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

In India vegetarianism is rooted in religion and yet not a social issue, though at times it can be a practical issue.


----------



## tessa (Sep 9, 2007)

ohh oregon i think you will be ok i hear they like the sweet young things, not the well seasoned things like you and i:roll::roll::roll:

some of the nicest vege food i tried was in india, and i just loved your edit reason it cracked me up 
i cant get past vegetarians that eat fish and chicken so much either , 
your either vegetarian and only eat things that are not classed as flesh or your not vegetarian


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

They were talking about papaya and other things that tenderize meat.


----------



## tessa (Sep 9, 2007)

well you and i technically are meat , we are just in a different form to the rest of the animal kingdom


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

Yes, but I'm scared of the asafeitida.


----------



## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

Question to pizza parlor server:

On the vegetarian pizza, are the vegetarians you use fresh or previously frozen?


Okay, I've never really asked that, but it does seem like a funny line. It should work for places that offer 'kid burgers' as well. Sometimes I am so mean.


In truth I have gone through periods of my life when I've eaten no meat. And some of the folks in the dinner hike group are vegetarians, so I usually tend to take meatless dishes, but not always. And the other day when I fixed those preseasoned, mislabeled ribeyes you might have seen in another thread, my wife mentioned how I've been grilling, smoking, frying less meat this summer. Eggs and cheese aren't plants, but they aren't exactly meat, either. Definitely still a carnivore, but working with that 'mostly plants' concept.

I wonder how many vegetarians eat Jello?

mjb.


----------



## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

Funny you should mention vegetarians eating Jello....I wrote a poem about that many years ago. Wish I could remember it now... the ending is something like this: 

For those who do not know the whats or hows,
Gelatin is made from boiling the skeletons of cows. :lips: 
(it's coming back to me, slowly but surely)

There is a vegetarian version of geletin that is also Kosher. I've never tried it, so have no idea how it compares to the "real" thing.


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

A carnivore eats only meat. Perhaps you mean omnivore? Sorry, but the complaint was made about fish-eating vegetarians, so I'm complaining about plant-eating carnivores.

As for the Jello, there is some plant stuff that I got at an Asian grocery one time to set a mousse. It worked well enough, but I prefer the fruit-chocolate mousse option with the chocolate used for setting. I wish I could remember the name of that other stuff but all I can think of is the stuff one finds in petrie dishes. Perhaps it is the same stuff.


----------



## amazingrace (Jul 28, 2006)

There is something called Agar-Agar, which I believe is derived from a type of seaweed?, that is supposed to be a suitable substitue for animal gelatin. I have never tried it, though.


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

That's the stuff. And isn't agar what one finds in a petrie dish? :blush:


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, and can be used as a laxative, too!!! :lol:

At least it ain't meat, eh?? :smoking:


----------



## free rider (May 23, 2006)

Are you going to get me started on smokers now? 

Btw, your tartan looks very familiar.


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Not trying to incite the pure lung society, just was trying to add some "hip/beatnik/cool" (of which smoking is not) imagery to the comment...:blush:

The tartan is Clan MacLaren, and has similarities to a number of the more well known setts (Campbell, Douglas, Gordon, Murray, Stewart and others)...


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I made an avatar for now . . . maybe some of you will recognize it. It is my clan tartan.


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

I had a great book that I've lost track of. I think it was called the Homesteader's Handbook. It's from the 60's or 70's. Some of the drawings in it were really funny. One was a cigarette package labeled "Smoke Fish!" with little dried fish in it, instead of cigarettes :roll:It was a section on making smoked fish. This book was authored by Israel/Shea--the surnames, if I remember them right.

Well after typing this, I looked for the book and I found it :bounce: It's by Rich Israel and Reny Slay. It's not so much a fantastic cookbook as it is a practical guide to many skills including making soap and beer, raising bees for honey and a lot of other things.


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

The closest I can come up with is Munro...


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Nope . . and I hope I didn't totally hijack my own thread :look:


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh NOOOO!!!! Hijackery!!!

To sort of bring it back on topic, I also have a handful of books from the early 70's, entitled "The Foxfire Book(s)", [1972 and on] which espouse many of the traits of "plain living" embodied by the folks in the Appalachian Mountains...

Wonderful stuff...

Regarding vegetarians, my daughter has held an aversion to recognizable beef products (steaks, roasts and such) for a while now, but was okay with ground beef in burger or taco/burrito format... As well as chicken/turkey/fish for the most part.

Then she announced that she'd renounced all animal foods (including cheese, eggs, milk, etc.) preferring to have beans and veggies only. No huge hystrionics, or condemming us meat eaters to eternal sauteing, but she had a bit of an "air" about her that suggested that she was now on an "enlightened" path to purity...

She has been known to be stubborn at times (not unlike her dad), so I just let her go on about how she needed to do this. I figure that at 25 years old (semi-professional university student) she had a right to her beliefs, as long as they did not interfere with my lifestyle. After all, it was I who was providing the shelter, utilities, food, cable TV and internet access, so my rules are the law, and highly regarded. Well, to be truthful, let's just say they are given a cursory acknowledgement and viewed as so much hot air out of the paycheck...

Anyway, that went okay for a few months, and then one day, there was the obligatory fast food burger bag and wrapper left out on the kitchen table when I got home.

Not a word came out of my mouth, nor did I gloat too horribly when a couple of weeks later she actually asked for a couple of the hot dogs that were being prepared on the 4th...

She still maintains a primarily vegetarian intake, but allows those if us who wish to gnaw on the flesh of the beasts to do so in relative peace and harmony, as long as we pile the bones neatly, as to resemble Japanese pagodas...

(she's gonna kill me if she ever finds this...)


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

HAH that's funny.

I don't claim to be vegetarian even though I don't eat much meat. That way I don't have to hide my love for bacon when it's right in front of me.  No guilt in my diet.


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Hi, I'm Yeti and I'm a baconaholic. I only think of bacon when it's right in front of me, but at that point I can't stop.

I don't eat much meat, but I also find prosciutto hard to resist

I can resist cheese so long as it's "pasteurized process cheese food". If it's some really tasty stuff, I'll reward my taste buds with some.

And to those of you who are vegetarian or vegan, I hope you love your diet. I say that sincerely. There are so many new tastes to love whatever your experience and preferences are. Even if you have preferred brands of motor oil that you drink, well ahem anyway but, what was I trying to say?

Oh yeah don't drink too much motor oil.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I venture to say the key to staying healthy is to have a balanced diet - everything in moderation. I live by the code:

"Eat. Eat good food. Mostly plants."

Of course I have problems if I don't eat protein. If I don't have an egg or something like that in the morning I get the shakes by noon. 

I had a friend who was vegetarian... except for bacon and pepperoni haha.


----------



## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Hoping not to hi-jack either, but after much squinting and comparing I have three possible:
Fraser
MacQueen
Or a rotten MacGregor (our clan had a few altercations with old Rob Roy)

That little avatar is so tiny it's hard to tell. For goodness sake DMT and I belong to the same clan and I couldn't make it out enough to identify. Throw us a bone would ya Yeti.
Oh and yet another opportunity to post the picture of my husband's tattoo with my clan motto emblazoned on his shoulder.


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Did he ever get treatment for the jaundice?


----------



## izbnso (May 12, 2007)

Do not pick on my photography skills, I had to monkey with the camera so that his lily white skin didn't set off a blinding reflection. I wish I had a smiley that stuck out its tongue.


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Yeah, it is tiny. This might make it too easy, but do you know what clan the Gillespie name is in? No looking it up.


----------



## oldschool1982 (Jun 27, 2006)

Nah. Nah, Nah, Boo Boo. I'm tell'n on you. :lol:

I mean this in a totally sarcastic way so none of you vegetarians out there bite my head off. Oh wait I'm not a vegetable so I have no worries.......:suprise: Holyer than thou vegetarians scare me about as much as loosing a finger to one of our Koi. :crazy:

Truth be told though I do eat a good amount of vegetables but there's no substitute for a huge piece of meat just off the grill served rare. Salt, pepper and a side of sautéed 'shrooms.


----------



## oregonyeti (Jun 16, 2007)

Cannibals are what really make me nervous.


----------



## dmt (Jul 28, 2006)

Dood, that's krewl...


----------

