# Appropriate resolution for this situation



## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi all, not sure if this is ok to post here or not, but we were hoping to get some honest opinions from people who have experience.

We had an event this past Saturday as a fundraiser for our local non-profit society. We hired a local caterer to provide a buffet-style meal. The meal we agreed on was as follows:

- Prime rib

- Yorkshire pudding

- Roasted potatoes

- Mashed potatoes

- Roasted vegetables

Total cost was to be $22/plate for 100 people.

On the evening of the event, we had a total head count of 91 people. The meal was served ~45 minutes late, and the prime rib ran out before 35 people had gotten any. As well, the caterer did not bring napkins, salt & pepper, or horseradish. We had to scrounge napkins and salt & pepper from the in-house supplies.

As well, in order to appease our guests, we had to order $420 worth of pizza and other food for a 'midnight snack'.

The caterer has said that she supplied 1/2 pound of meat per person, which by all accounts is the right amount, _unless it is a bone-in cut of meat,_ which it was. Our research on the internet has indicated that 3/4 to 1 pound per person would be a more appropriate amount of meat for a bone-in cut. Would the professionals on here agree with this?

The caterer went on her facebook page the next day and basically intimated that all the guests must have been pigs and taken too much. Nevermind that the caterer is the one who carved the meat (into enormous pieces) then just placed it in the buffet line and went back to the kitchen. No one had a second helping before the meat ran out.

So, the second question I would have, for those willing, is what you think would be a fair resolution to how much we should have to pay? We have already paid a deposit of $690.

Our thoughts, for what it's worth are as follows:

35 people unfed: $22*35 = $770

Deposit already paid: $690

Cost of pizza for guests: $420

$2200 - $1880 = $320 to pay further.

She sent us an offer of a $250 discount off, fwiw, which doesn't even cover the cost of the pizza we had to buy. Any thoughts would be appreciated, since everyone is very frustrated and we would like to hear from people who have a clear perspective from the other side of the fence.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

What does your contract state?


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

There doesn't appear to really be one, just a spreadsheet she sent us for a quote.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

WOW! how long has this "caterer" been in business?  These are egregious things....running out of food is one of the worst things a caterer can do.  

Frankly $22 for prime rib is dirt cheap....

I'd be tempted to say, you messed up so royally the deposit should cover the dinner.

Other caterers wanna speak out?


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

Well pete, shroom and others are the experts here while Im new-guy but off the top of my head, 1st it's all in the contract, especially (cliche') the fine print, regarding both the caterer's responsibility and yours. First up is be SURE youve met any and all of what YOU agreed to. (so the caterer doesnt have that to "hide behind") Secondly, their responsibilty is to provide your guests with food, so provided there are no clauses addressing claimed "gluttony" as it were, they failed IMO to fulfill that obligation but... it all depends on how it's worded. Thirdly I would suggest that any further communication you make with the caterer now be in "provable" form, eg, email facebook etc. Phone calls are risky since they can claim or disclaim anything actually said or not said--your word against theirs.  

From what you've said here tho, sounds like the caterer mismanaged portion control, (I wonder have they even SERVED PRib in bulk before?) then blamed the client and guests. Unfortunately this happens all to often and makes us all look bad.

One more thing occurring... discounts only appease if you WANT to use them again--that sounds questionable here.  Should this end in court, you want to be in a position to be able to also claim the cost of serving your guests food to their (and your) reasonable  satisfaction. All that depends on your states laws etc I would imagine.

Hoping that helped a little.


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

We aren't able to find any contract, and the caterer is a pretty mickey mouse operation, so I'm comfortable assuming there's no sophisticated language regarding gluttony or anything else in the contract.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't know anyone who would serve  a bone-in prime rib on a buffet.Most caterer's would pre score the top of each prime (Rib bones removed) and make sure they had the number of covers taken care of. I don't know how a person would do that with a bone in Prime, you have no choice but to slice between the bone for a large cut.  I would pay for what was served and call it a night............Chefbillyb


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

(Ok sorry, the gluttony clause was a bit of a joke, but  I also didnt see your first post specifying the spreadsheet/no contract til after I posted) I'm asssuming you signed the spreadsheet....I've seen that kind of "contract" before, just lists out the esssentials, and how/when they want payment.

Absence of a detailed contract can be good or bad...but  not only did they not feed you, but the fact you were actually under count is more or less a positive.

Point of note, I cant IMAGINE as a caterer, simply leaving big expensive hunks of meat out for people to help themselves. Thats just asking for trouble, and it's up to the caterer to control the product. Even tho I agree that 22 per head is a good deal, it's a bad deal at half that if half your guests failed to get what YOU are charged for.

Also worth noting is the 45 minute late start in serving. Another failing in what you paid for, and if whatever contract they gave you specified serving time, thats another obvious breech to me.

In the end I think I'll agree with Shroomgirl that maybe I'd call it even with the deposit, or just for what the guest DID get. Doesn't seem fair to you though...

I personally see this as a gross breech on the part of the caterer; but I suppose the question is,

if they refuse to give in, what subsequent steps are you willing to take?


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. The good news, for us, is that we're not trying to go after them for a refund. We've only paid the deposit and that's all, thus far. Thing is, we're a non-profit in a small town, not exactly well armed for a legal fight. That said, she's a mickey mouse caterer in a small town, so I'm not sure she's any better prepared for it. We just want to come up with a number that is fair, and that will make the whole situation go away.

I do, however, appreciate knowing from you folks that we seem to be in the right.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

If the caterer sues, after you do not pay anything but the deposit and send a 1099 for the full amount /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif, I'd counter sue for breach of contract.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

_If the caterer sues, after you do not pay anything but the deposit and send a 1099 for the full amount , I'd counter sue for breach of contract_

*I agree. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif*

_ she's a mickey mouse caterer in a small town_

Hmm makes me wonder how Mickey Mouse her licensing is. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

And unfortunately, that fact is there are many MM caterers in very LARGE cities too.

That's one of the things I find attractive about the business-- you need only be halfway decent to

be better than many, and if you're just really competent, you can be among the best. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

I would venture to guess that the discount offered was the profit margin on the event The caterer definitely deserves no profit from the event. That being said, they did however provide food (although not necessarily the right amount) and labor which to me would seem fair and equitable to be reimbursed for that amount. I think a 50/50 split (event cost $2200, pay $1100) would roughly cover those costs and be a resolution in this no/win situation.

Granted that you are out the cost of the pizza because your guests were still hungry, I feel that you should share some the blame for that situation due to the fact that you didn't have amounts of food to be provided specified before hiring the caterer; so IMO you shouldn't deduct the cost of the pizza.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

Interesting points Chef to be sure, presenting the other side of the coin, ie, what the client should prudently look for when signing, and nothing allowing for the client making up the difference and charging the caterer. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I guess one thing it boils to is, large or small, how many servings of prime rib did caterer actually provide. If it was 100, I suppose they're clear technically, even if one person ate all 100 servings. i.e., what was provided vs actually feeding all guests.

Either way she screwed up, I would keep a tight leash on prime, if not actually plating, then standing behind the station tonging it out with a friendly smile.

As to profit, I would personally be shooting for 30-40% for Prime for 100, but I doubt I could do that at 22 per.

*shrugs* Chalk this one up to lack of clarification and a caterer who has more than a few things to learn.

Just another draw of event catering....never the same thing twice.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Meezenplaz said:


> As to profit, I would personally be shooting for 30-40% for Prime for 100


How much would you charge to get that and how big of a portion?


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## davehriver (Jan 13, 2012)

I always figure a half pound of MEAT (not bone) per person and usually overcook.  If by any means I feel the quantity of meat is tight I serve it as mentioned above.  I would not pay the caterer any more.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Dont pay him anything more, letr him sue you while you are holding the $   , He is most likely a corporation and has to be represented by a lawyer . You dont have to. ! lb. of meat bone in per person is what I figure.

     Save all the receipts of # you spent to feed people when he ran out. You can show it to judge plus the money you had to return to some guest. Plus travel expense of getting more food and time spent  Also no contract? his word against yours and you have the receipts etc. He or she messed up and they know it.

    The best one is that he was carving therefore in control of the portions, so its hids stupidity that he ran out as he cut to heavy.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

> How much would you charge to get that and how big of a portion?


Well, I think there's a thread on computing costs in here somewhere, and it may be a topic-stray in here....but I start with per person food cost, (my cost) and work fwd from there, covering adddtional overhead. Adding in target-profit last.

Portion size/grade of prime might depend a bit on the who-what-why of the event, (client feedback) but assuming reasonably priced roasts, and a mixed-appetite crowd, I'd shoot for about 10 to 12 oz servings, (no bone) and try not to specify actual weight per person, unless the client brings it up--not to cheat, but just to allow more leeway to keep butt-loss risks to a minimum.

So all that comes out to a preliminary price estimate of 26.99 a person.
That's with one helper, buffet style, 1 meat-serving station, leaving us both to cover runner duties.
Also figuring 8 to 10% food bumper to cover unexpected guests etc.

Down and dirty calculation, therebouts.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

My thoughts?

Caveat emporium.

The alarm bells should have rung when the caterer didn't present the client with a contract.

Frankly, I'd let this one just go, pay what was negotiated and next time--if there is ever one again,-- study the contact and quotes, ask a zillion qustions BEFORE any money changes hands.


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

I'm with ED......correspond & keep all correspondence.  They messed up your event.   You keep the money.  

If you have an atty you work with @ your non-profit or an atty friend, run it by him/her......but frankly I'd not give the caterer any more $.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

The question here was not portion control. It was what should I pay him to be fair and I say based on all the nonsense he gave you , being late, not enough food, letting you hear it from the guest and they are blaming you . I repaeat don't give him a dime more . In fact if he calls you tell him you were thinking of sending him the bill for the food you had to buy. Go on offensive never defensive because you did nothing wrong Except hire him or her.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

I'm with Shroom and Chefed.

The faster MM caterers who lowball their competitors go out of business, the better it is for customers and legitimate business people.

Better quality, better service, fair pay.

This thread should be required reading for any poster who comes to these boards asking advice about starting a catering business from their home.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

The only side presented here is that of the client. I would like to hear the the caterer's version of the event. I can't imagine any caterer (even if it were their first event) that would stupid enough to cut prime rib into 65 portions at an event for 100 people.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I have a strange feeling the OP wanted, looked for, and got the lowest price meal available. This was a fundraiser, they want to make money on the event. The caterer bought into the OP's needs for the fundraiser and got screwed in the process. I still can't see any caterer dropping off a bone in prime rib and say have at it. I think both sides dropped the ball, the caterer for not portioning out the needed amount of prime rib and the OP for not controlling the food at the event. As a caterer I would never let the OP control the way the food is done, it's my reputation, only I can control the outcome............ This is what you get when you don't let the caterer do their job and just worry about dollar signs.......ChefBillyB


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

> the caterer for not portioning out the needed amount of prime rib


Nothing says for sure that the caterer didn't cut 100 portions and that guests didn't take more than one slice. I have worked many slicing stations where guests wanted "just a bit more...no more than that".


> I think both sides dropped the ball


Yeah that!


> As a caterer I would never let the OP control the way the food is done, it's my reputation, only I can control the outcome............ This is what you get when you don't let the caterer do their job and just worry about dollar signs


And this!


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Cheflayne, I hope your doing well. I agree with you, we don't know if the Prime Rid was portioned and people took more than normal. The thing I'm having a hard time with is, why the caterer used a bone in prime. If your pre slicing a bone in prime, just think of how big the portions would be. I used to use a lot of 109 primes back in the day, I would Roast the 22lb beasts with the bone and fat cap on and then, in more cases cut off the bone before serving. I liked the size of the girth the 109 provided for great plate coverage. I guess it's had to answer the OP's question with only one side of the story..................take care..............ChefBillyB


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

The caterer possibly took it off the bone before portioning. I worked a prime rib house where all ours were cooked bone in and then taken off the bone.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

shroomgirl said:


> I'm with ED......correspond & keep all correspondence. They messed up your event. You keep the money.
> 
> If you have an atty you work with @ your non-profit or an atty friend, run it by him/her......but frankly I'd not give the caterer any more $.


Oh geez, attorneys...

Look, before anyone says anything about lawyers or courts I need EVERYONE to answer the following questions. Every State/municipality is different, so you might get some different answers:

1) How much are the court costs/fees for such a case?

2) Who pays this?

3) Who serves the defendant with the neccesary notification/documents? Bears any costs for doing this?

4) Who takes responsibility for ensuring the defendant makes the court appearanace?

Now for arguement's sake, say the judge awards the client damages;

5) Who bears the responsibility for collecting the money? Who bears any costs associated with this?

6) If the defendant can't/won't pay, what recourse do you have? What can the courts do to help you get the money?

If I may, I'd like to quote Jimi Hendrix:

Are you experienced?

Here's another scenerio:

You need new brakes for your car. The bricks-and-mortar service shop quotes you $250.00, the backyard mechanic $150.00 You choose the backyard guy. Next morning you fail to notice a puddle of brake fluid on the street, back out your car and rear-end the guy behind you. Obviously the mechanic did a shi**y job, but are you also responsible?


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Let him or her sue a charity in a small town ? They can't possibly be that nieve. Word of mouth carries far.


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## uptownkevin (Sep 15, 2006)

Sisko said:


> We aren't able to find any contract, and the caterer is a pretty mickey mouse operation, so I'm comfortable assuming there's no sophisticated language regarding gluttony or anything else in the contract.


I have to say that you got what you had coming to you. Sorry, but you're a charity and expect things for cheap. This Mickey Mouse caterer is probably not legal and you were enticed by the low price. So you really got what you paid for. Lesson learned?

Sincerely,

- a real caterer with a license and bills to pay.


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi folks, looks like a bunch of new responses since I last checked. Just a couple points of clarification.

1. We were not 'trying to be cheap'. This caterer was actually one of the more expensive ones that we looked at, and we chose to go with her because she promised a delicious, home style meal.

2. The caterer did NOT take the bone out before serving. Many people had portions with bone in them.

3. It's possible some people took too much, but then there were the people who wished they could get a smaller portion but couldn't because the meat was cut into huge chunks.

4. The caterer did not serve, nor did she indicate that we needed to "control the portions". Are we, as the people paying for the caterer to come and put on a meal for us, really supposed to know to stand over the food and portion it out? How would we know how much to portion? How could we possibly given that we had no knowledge of what was going on in the kitchen or how much more meat there was to come?

5. As I stated in the original post, the caterer indicated that she bought 1/2 pound per person, then estimated some shrinkage percentage. However, all the research I have read indicates this would only be accurate for a boneless cut of meat.

6. And just to address the last point, Uptown Kevin. Because we trusted a small town business who promised to do a good job for us, we deserved to have over 30% of our guests unfed? Seriously?


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

> _Are we, as the people paying for the caterer to come and put on a meal for us, really supposed to know to stand over the food and portion it out? How would we know how much to portion?_
> 
> In my opinion Sisko, that would be like putting your car in to the autoshop, and having a problem after-would anyone expect you to have been standing there turning a wrench? IMO people hire caterers to do the work of preparing, and serving, a meal. That includes portion control, et al.
> 
> ...


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Stick by what I said before, you won't go wrong. EDB


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## shroomgirl (Aug 11, 2000)

+1 on Ed's advice (again)


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Sisko, in reading your last post it appears that the caterer has many flaws and much to learn about how to run a business. It undoubtedly is an ugly situation for all parties involved.

My wife was in the medical profession for years and she was always flabbergasted at how many people would blindly accept anything said to them by people in scrubs without asking any questions or being their own advocate.

Whenever I am on the road and need a motel room for the night, I always ask to see it before signing on the dotted line.

Unfortunately, when it came to needing the services of a caterer, you had a few flaws and some things to learn about how to be a consumer. You needed to a better advocate for yourself and your charity. At this point, I wouldn't even begin to suggest a resolution to this no win scenario. You have my sympathies.


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## foodnfoto (Jan 1, 2001)

> +1 on Ed's advice (again)


That's a big +2 here


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

In for a penny...  for the record I do agree with our veterans in here that this caterer has been paid enough already, and I figure your deposit closely covered their food costs (since they didn't provide serviceware even) so they're mainly out the labor. Rewarding them with further payment doesn't teach them a thing.

I also agree with Cheflayne's last: in fact, if you expect to be using (any) caterers in the future, Im sure the all-of-us could come up with some guideline/questions you should ask before signing (although I suspect our moderator and others already have many posts on the subject buried in the archives here) but also keep in mind many established caterers, if they know you' re serious, will show you a copy of their contract clauses before you sign. I think once you find/use a caterer that really knows their stuff, it'll be like night and day to you.


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks all for your replies.

The board voted and we presented the caterer with a letter offering to pay a further $320 based on the math in my initial post. She has yet to respond, but I will pass along the final resolution to the community here, when we get one.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

No way the board is wrong. you are paying this caterer for a bad job and now he figures he can do it again to someone and they may pay to. I would let him or her sue me. I think I know a bit about catering as I have been doing it for over 40 years  and have seen it all. Mushroom Girl is also very experienced in catering and caterer policy.


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

_"now he figures he can do it again to someone and they may pay to."_

_"Rewarding them with further payment doesn't teach them a thing."_

Ugh, don't usually quote myself, but I do stand behind it. You've sought advice in this matter

on a message board populated with, even generally required-to-post-by, people with a significant

amount of experience in catering.

Your decision of course, but unfortunately your board may yet come to regret not heeding these

good peoples' advice by rewarding this person for unforgivably bad execution of an event. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crying.gif


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

You made a BIG mistake!

Your board is rewarding egregious behavior and wasting precious resources of the non-profit.



Sisko said:


> Thanks all for your replies.
> 
> The board voted and we presented the caterer with a letter offering to pay a further $320 based on the math in my initial post. She has yet to respond, but I will pass along the final resolution to the community here, when we get one.


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## sisko (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi folks, thanks for the feedback. I agree with you that the caterer does not deserver any further payment, however the board voted to use the math as originally calculated, effectively paying for the number of people who did receive a meat portion. While we believe we are in the right and would win in a legal challenge, should it come to that, we have neither the resources nor the desire to see it go that far. A compromise and hopefully quick settling of this matter will be best for us.


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## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Another thing you should do' REPLACE YOUR BOARD WITH BUSINESS PEOPLE'


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