# What's your take on these electric knife sharpeners?



## mezzaluna

I'm looking for an electric knife sharpener. I sifted through more recent threads on this forum but I want to have a take on more recent machines. I'm a home cook who uses knives daily but I don't give them the kind of use they'd get in a professional setting. I DON'T want to buy sharpening stones, no matter how superior they may be. They're not in consideration.

I have a small set of Henckels knives (chef, santoku, boning, paring, etc.) and one Global 5" cook's knife. I know the Global has a different edge from the Henckels, so I wonder if there's a machine that's not too expensive but could sharpen both blade styles. I've looked on line and am leaning toward the Chef's Choice 110 (about $90) or the Edgecraft Chef's Choice 120 (about $150). 

Your thoughts please? If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'd like to hear from the "knife people". 

Thanks in advance,
Mezzaluna


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## phatch

Cook's Illustrated and BDL have recommended one of the Chef's Choice models. One of them includes a 15 degree angle for Japansese knives as well. i don't remember which one though. 

Phil


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## kyheirloomer

I've been using the Chef's Choice 130 for a couple of years and have been happy with it. It's not a good choice for Japanese knives, though, because there's only one edge angle. 

Is this the best choice? I dunno! And that's my official opinion.


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## foodpump

Both machines have a good reputation.

Be warned!

When you combine an electric motor with an abrasive stone, you have a machine that is designed to remove metal--your knives will "Shrink" every time you sharpen them......


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## kyheirloomer

I don't understand your point, Foodpump. Everytime you touch a blade to an abrasive stone you remove metal. That's what sharpening is all about. Doesn't mater whether the driving force is an electric motor or your hands.


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## foodpump

Electric sharpeners remove a lot more metal than by hand.

One of the very few things that everyone who sharpens can agree on, is the fact that the finer abrasive you use, the longer your edge lasts.

Course grits--800-1,200 range leave fairly deep scratches that weaken the edge. Should these scratches be removed with succesive finer grits, in the 8000 range, the edge is virtually scratch free, and therefore lasts longer.

I don't know exactly what the grit is on the most electric machines, If it is under 1000, the edge it leaves won't last very long--unless finer abrasives are used afterwards.

My personal experience with machines--at the workplace--is that knives "shrink" very quickly, an special care must be taken to ensure that the "belly" of the knife stays intact and that ther are no hollows or dead spots.


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## maryb

I would go with a manual sharpener. The Edgepro models do a great job and they use a jig to set the angle.


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## boar_d_laze

Chef's Choice makes a model that does both 15 and 20 degree edge angles. It's prosaically designated the Model 1520. It isn't cheap but it comes closest to what you said you want. 

Possibly better is getting either their three stage XV Model 15 or thier two stage 315s and letting the machine reset the edges on your German knives. My net friend Fred, who is a true expert, says that German steel won't hold a 15* edge angle without the edge collapsing (i.e., rolling and requiring either frequent steeling and/or resharpening). However the Chef's Choice manufactuer, Edgecraft, suggests a 15* edge for better Germans; and in my experience, based on hand sharpening a number of Henkels and Wusties, they hold the edge fairly well. That is, they'll work sharper with the more acute edge, but the edge will need extra and more frequent attention. No big deal if you keep the Chef's Choice on the counter.

The Edge Pro Apex, the rod-guided system recommended by Mary, is relatively expensive AND also tedious to set up. That said, you can get an excellent edge -- as good as a good sharpener can get from most stones -- without the learning curve stones require. There are other, less expensive rod-guides like Lansky but none of them work as well as the Edge Pro.

I'm thinking the Chef's Choice XV or 1520 would be best if you can afford them. Otherwise the 315s. 

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## kuan

So where have you been BDL?

1) Tour of Michelin 2 and 3 star restaurants

2) Screaming Eagle winery secret tasting

3) Asian street food tour


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## the tourist

Ya' know, I really tried to stay out of this thread. I felt that no matter how I parsed my verbiage, my recommendation would come out as negative.

Yes, many knives are sharpened by experts on mechanized equipment. Many home cutlers use a machine called a Tormek that you can buy over the telephone.

But these home Chef Choice style machines aren't in that class, not by a country mile.

(And I would never 'drag' a Japanese laminate through a Chefs Choice! I'd rather ride a Kawasaki.)

Go to a kitchen store in your area. Ask the owner which tinker does his work and the sharpening for the preferred chefs in that area. Clearly one name will be mentioned over and over. Go see that guy. A few bucks more is well worth not permanently damaging a great knife.

Do not take this as a put-down. Every knife I have seen 'sharpened' in this mechanized fashion has had far too much metal nibbled away right in front of the choil or ricasso. Knives damaged in this manner have their collective lives shorted by years.


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## andydude

Hi Tourist,

I'll start by saying that if there was a skilled knife sharpener nearby, then I would choose to take my knives to him/her from time to time.

That said, and with due respect to your skills, I think there is room for more context to be added to that argument. 

By that I mean, if I buy a good quality knife that I can home sharpen independently to a usable standard by investing once in something like a Chefs Choice machine, and as a result only get 20yrs wear instead of 25yrs - how unreasonable a choice does that become?

I'm not saying you lack the virtue of a good argument from a purist's point of view, I am saying that as an equation, which is what it may be for many home users (basically - is it worth it to me to have to rely on a 3rd party?), I think as it stands, it lacks the information necessary to make a balanced judgement.

Can a home user not expect to achieve a serviceable blade with such a machine?

Percentage wise (and I understand that there are variables), on average, how dramatically would you expect the serviceable life of a blade to be reduced?

Cheers
Andy.


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## boar_d_laze

With due respect to Tourist's opinions ...

Assuming you use your knife fairly frequently -- prepping 1-1/2 meals per day -- without frequent maintenance on your part, i.e., steeling, a knife sharpener won't be able to keep your knives really sharp unless you're taking them in every week or so. So that's not really much of an option if you want sharp knifes.

Frequency is very much knife dependent. A good Japanese made western style knife requires less edge maintenance than a typical European or American made knife. This has to do with the quality of steel used to make the respective knives.

Also, the skill set required to use a steel aka more appropriately as a "rod hone," is pretty much the same skill set it takes to sharpen on stones. If you can steel, you can learn to freehand with a fairly flat learning curve.

[/quote] By that I mean, if I buy a good quality knife that I can home sharpen independently to a usable standard by investing once in something like a Chefs Choice machine, and as a result only get 20yrs wear instead of 25yrs - how unreasonable a choice does that become? [/quote]

Good question and a valuable way of looking at the situation. But...

Perhaps now is a good time to mention that the real weakness of the Chef's Choice system is not its aggressiveness but the fact that the stones and/or strops load up and need cleaning -- but the home use machines cannot be cleaned by the user.

One of the dirty secrets is that maintenance tools need their own maintenance. For some people -- almost all of whom are male (including me) -- this is an opportunity to make sharpening as much a hobby as knives themselves.

Returning to your question, and to the false assumption which prompted it, a current model Chef's Choice, used properly, won't eat your knives any faster than a hand or rod guide sharpening. What it will do is eventually reshape the blade because it can't sharpen right up to the finger guard/bolster on those of your knives which have them. A once a week sharpener is probably looking at more than five years before it becomes apparent. But it depends on the knife.

Most reasonably proficient freehand sharpeners do a better job than all but a few services. It's mostly a matter of using the best sharpening surfaces for the particular knives and spending the time to develop a really good edge.

Of course there are some really good services out there. Jakpanese Knife Sharpening, for instance. The good ones are very expensive, far more than a sane person would consider for normal maintenance. They run in excess of $20 an edge.

Yes. Not the best edge, but a very good one. Chef's Choice "trizor" style edges (triple bevel) are slightly longer wearing than their double bevels.

I wouldn't expect much if any difference. In any case, as always, "it depends." In this case it's dependent both on who you would use the Chef Choice, what the alternative method is, and how it's practiced. I'd expect most commercial restaurant and butcher services to eat knives about twice as fast a Chef's Choice. Despite Tourist's faith in "tinkers," in my experience, most sharpeners are more fast and dirty than clean and reverent.

BTW, very few kitchen knife sharpeners use a Tormek -- it's really more for carpenter's tools. Most commercial sharpeners use small or medium vertial wheels. In any case, for all wheel (Tormek is a lateral wheel) or belt sharpeners, whether lateral or vertical, if you use a jig or table to hold the angle, the tip becomes highly problematic. On the other hand, if you freehand the angle, you've lost all the advantages of a machine except speed.

The "tricks," such as they are, to using a Chef's Choice depends on running the knife through the guide at a smooth and moderate pace, with very little pressure beyond the knife's own weight and using your sense of touch to follow the changing contour of the edge as it apporaches the tip.

A Chef's Choice machine is an excellent choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen and aren't knife hobbyists. It will keep your knives sharper for daily use than most services. It isn't nearly as much trouble as a rod guide. It doesn't requre the comprehensive skills freehanding does.

If you like you can use me as a specific example of a skilled, freehand sharpener. With appropriate stones, it would take me around half an hour to completely reprofile (including repair of minor chips), sharpen and moderately polish to a very fine edge a typical German or Japanese knife. On the other hand, you could do the same thing to not quite so good an edge on a Chef's Choice in less than ten minutes.

I can take a slightly dull knife to very sharp in about five minutes. On a Chef's Choice, going to sharp, would take about two.

For most home cooks, the time saving isn't so much about time as about burden and convenience. The great thing about Chef's Choice is that they get used and knives are kept sharp.

When you think about knives you should start with the interdependent ideas that: 1) Almost any sharp knife can perform almost any knife task better than almost any dull knife -- regardless of quality, "balance," shape, or other considerations; and 2) All dull knives are essentially equal.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## andydude

Thanks for that BDL, I don't want to tread heavily in this thread, I'm certainly not one of the knife people that can best advise Mezzaluna. I am interested in some of the considerations that might drive me towards one direction or another.

You introduced the dimension of honing. I think it's possible that an individual who has rejected the idea of using a sharpening stone, may not automatically reject the idea of using a steel to hone and maintain an edge.

Given that possibility, if someone was regularly and usefully applying a honing rod to some purpose (I mean on a session basis as opposed to an abstractly chosen calendar based rotation such as weekly), is it possible to suggest the frequency on which you'd expect that blade to need sharpening, compared to one where the edge wasn't being maintained?

Apply the conditions above, if that sharpening were professionally applied as opposed to home machined, would you expect that blade to need sharpening less frequently?


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## the tourist

You need never apologize. All you have to say is "Chico, I disagree." Heck, half of the fun of being a member on a forum is the debating.

I'll start my rebuttal with the discussion of the alloys. For simplification, let us begin with "European" alloys. Yes, they are soft. When I sharpen the truly poor examples a cascade of black swarf flows off the back of the Edge Pro like an ebony waterfall. To their credit, they don't wear out my stones.:lol:

I do like the upgrades in "American" steels, with Crucible leading the way. They have even improved their good alloys. You can buy knives in CPM-154CM that has a smaller carbide construction than 154-CM, and that's a great steel all by itself. Even Shun uses VG-10, so advances in ZDP-189 and S30V are icing on the cake.

As for "Japanese" steels, I admit that they are my favorites. Yes, you can buy cheaper 'clad' knives, but give me a folded laminate any day.

Yes, a Tormek is used by many home hobbyists. But it does have a cooling feature, and if you must used something mechanized, it has many additional fixtures available for precise work.

As for cost and the repeated expense of addressing the wear, most good tinkers have a "route." They check-in or call the client and schedule times when they are needed. If the head chef has stressed proper steeling techniques and good knife habits, a tinker will rarely have to go through the entire slate of a kitchen's knives.

Yes, lots of knives cost 20 bucks a throw to sharpen. However, on the good upscale stuff I charge 20 per inch.

So let's play a little game. Let's imagine that we were all seated at a restaurant now talking and debating, and a noted chef brings us plates of hor d-oeuvres. There are two plates of fugu.

One of the plates was made with a sashimi pulled through a Chefs Choice. The angle might not be exactly as it left the factory in Japan, and the bevel surfaces are the standard grit of an off-the-shelf machine. Even if the chef is the highest master, the edge may or may not be the uniform or polished instrument traditionally needed. Then again, it might be just fine.

The second plate of fugu was prepared by a sashimi polished by Dwade Hawley. As is standard for a tinker, he knows the chef in depth. As in any professional relationship, the chef has exacting needs, expectations, and perhaps even the correct Japanese names of waterstones he prefers. Since the chef receives the critical performance he demands (and since Dwade is the best in the craft), this chef's extensive training provides a textbook product.

Now granted, the plate prepared by the Chefs Choice edge might be perfectly alright. A good workman does not blame his tools, and these chefs are the best.

Given the scenario--_with your life on the line_--which plate do you sample? Be honest.:chef:


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## andydude

Hi The Tourist,

If we could move away from the perfectionist chef whose life is on the line, and for whom I'm happy to accept your expertise would be more than welcome. It's not however the context in which I understand the original question is set.

Paraphrasing BDL and accepting the many variables - he suggests that on average a home user who preps 1.5 meals a day and doesn't hone their edge may need to sharpen roughly once a week to maintain a serviceable edge.

If, as you appear from the quote to accept, the Chefs Choice can provide a serviceable edge which BDL suggests doesn't profoundly affect the longevity of the blade (reshapes over time - but that's not the same as ruining the ability of the knife to function reasonably) and given the cost of sharpening per knife which you outlined above, is there a scenario in which you can say that it's not sensible for such a user to opt for the Chefs Choice option?

For example - consider a user who prefers not to manually sharpen their own blades, but is reasonably proficient with a honing rod and who focuses on using appropriate surfaces, employing good knife action etc. Do you believe such a user can affect the frequency at which the blade needs to be sharpened sufficiently that it becomes economically more attractive to seek out a professional? 

At this point I am thinking that if I had a preferred knife or 2 that for whichever reasons had become valued above other knives, I may well like them to be professionally maintained if I knew for a fact that the integrity of the blade would benefit by comparison. I think though that would be a result of an emotional investment, rather than practical need.

For all other knives, I think unless there's new information, I find options like the Chefs Choice quite attractive, at least while I'm building up time spent practising with a stone and deciding if that's something that is an appropriate choice for me also.


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## the tourist

While that might seem logical at first glance, it becomes a limiting factor.

For example, many of my friends can't swim, but they don't live near water. Or is it that they choose to live inland because they can't swim..?

If you have a cheap knife, Sears cookware and a mundane sharpening system can you successfully whip up cordon bleu quality cuisine--or are superior signature dishes so far over your skills that good equipment is unnecessary?

Laugh if you will, but having a nicer car, warmer clothes, more comfortable boots and superior cutlery will enhance even our most routine pursuits.

Sure, I hope the next telephone call is from Cat Cora, but I also sharpen for many of my wife's fellow teaching staff members. (There's four school knives on my work area right now.) But figure it this way, if those knives make their job easier, and they find cooking fun, then they cook more often and try new things.

And every tinker I know--including the ones I can't stand--does pro bono work for churches and subsistance hunters. Better tools make their lives easier, and I feel that the working poor deserve my time.

I once gave a blue steel knife to a barista taking culinary classes. He's now the head chef at a four star. It's just the butterfly effect.


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## andydude

Nothing there to laugh at, I'm quite comfortable with that.


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## the tourist

I don't find it odd, either. But I hear these comments all of the time.

A new culinary student will opine that he can only afford cheap cutlery, thereby creating another set of ills.

I was a motorcycle mechanic for a few years and bought the best wrenches I could. Over thirty five years have passed since then and most of those tools are still in my toolbox.

If a career in preparing food is your goal, then find a good supplier, learn about sharpening or find the oxymoronic honest tinker, and read a little Japanese history.

From my perspective 'cheap knives' are tantamount to saying that you will use cheaper brakes until you can drive better.


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## boar_d_laze

Kuan,

A combination of work, computer problems caused by a hacker, health, vacation, have kept me away from both the net and the gmail accounts I use for the BDL personna. All of those fires are out now, though -- a funny thing to say consider I live in the SG Valley.


Andy,

Unfortunately and unsurprsingly the answer falls into the great slough of "it depends." With the right knife, profiled to the right geometry and an appropriate hone (or set of hones) the answer is "yes." 

Steeling is wildly misunderstood and usually poorly practiced. What you want is a knife that's not made from too hard a steel; a hone (or set of hones) in the fine to extra-fine to glass-smooth range; and a skill set that includes holding a constant angle, a fairly soft touch, and absolutely no banging of the knife against the hone. 

Proper honing doesn't actually "sharpen." What it does is straighten an edge which has been rolled and waved by impact (usually against the board). A few hones are "glass smooth," and that's all they do. Most hones have some texture. Depending on the state of polish on the edge these hones can blend coarse scratches creating some degree of polish; or, they can create some scuff which act as micro serration giving the edge bite. The bite compensates somewhat for the progressing dulling by wear of the edge -- allowing more time between sharpenings. However, because of the geometry of sharpening that doesn't save much metal. 

Before you ask, the best hone for the money is the Idahone 12" fine ($25ish). The best hone at any price is the HandAmerican borosilicate ($100ish) -- but it's only effective for knives that are already pretty sharp and relatively finely polished. MAC makes a nice ceramic hone. HandAmerican makes very nice "glass smooth" metal hones. F. Dick's "Dickoron" line is top of the line metal -- as good as the HandAmerican and just as if not more expensive. Forschners are a pretty good bargain -- at least until you compare them to the Idahones. OTOH, unlike the Idahones you can't shatter a Forschner. 

Hones are not only useful for edge maintenace but for deburring as well.

A rod hone is not a good tool for asymmetric edges. The hone tends to create more problems than it solves once you take an edge much past a 60/40 asymmetry. 

Just for reference -- I'm not trying to sell you my choices -- I use a HandAmerican borosilicate for deburring between my soft Arkansas and surgical black Arkansas, and for the first couple of honings after the knife is polished. Once the edge starts to scuff I switch to a Henckels extra-fine (no longer manufactured) which I've had since the mid-seventies and has been made even finer by wear. 

One last remark concerning hones. I half- bought and was half-gifted my first Hand American borosilicate from and by a friend. I wrote about it fairly frequently in my sharpening posts here and on other fora; wrote enthusiastically. After a year or so, I dropped it, it broke, and I wrote about that too -- if not quite so enthusiastically. Hand America wrote me and offerred to send me a new one. I wrote back and explained that I'd purchased it used and that the breakage wasn't a manufacturer's defect. They still replaced it with the newer, more expensive model -- free. 


Chico,

I think I've been farily clear that a good freehand sharpener can get a sharper edge than a Chef's Choice. That said, one of the nice things that a Chef's Choice can do, which most freehand sharpeners cannot, is create a nice multi-bevel. The trizor ege is especially robust. While it doesn't wear any better than a flat profile it does resist rolling and waving better and needs less frequent maintenance.

As to cutting fish in general -- given a skilled cutter and an appropriately shaped knife of appropriate length -- the sharper the edge the cleaner the cut. A super smooth cut is far more pleasant on the tongue, especially with raw fish, than a cut which feels "furry" as a result of sawing with too short and/or too dull a knife. 

With fugu in particular -- I'd probably prefer the fugubkiki to be sharpened by the skilled hand sharpener rather than the Chef's Choice for the reason given above and not for safety.

In my opinion a Chef's Choice is a good option for people who otherwise wouldn't sharpen their knives frequently enough to keep them really sharp. Like any other system, they are not without limitations. Nor are they best solution for everyone.

BDL


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## the tourist

In this regard I think you are absolutely correct. It's a sad fact, but correct.

For example, the same thing is said about serrations. In just about every knife forum one hears that "a serrated knife will cut better *when in disrepair* than a plain edge."

That said, is this how you want me to approach a client, or partner with a dedicated chef who wants to enhance his signature presentations? I would rather work harder for a chef who wants a gyuto that would scare Luke Skywalker.

No matter what your view of those TV chefs might be, you'll notice that they serve or "plate" their best presentations in unique dishes. To be sure, the food would probably taste the same on Melmac. It is clear that some chefs try to refine every element of a meal. My service is one of many enhancements they utilize.

I don't sell many dishes, but my one contribution to your craft is to make sure your cutting implements are the best for your endeavors.

It's a partnership. I once reported in another thread the joy I had watching a skilled sous-chef block out a leg of beef with a sharp butakiri I had loaned him.

I think you can find blue steel butakiris on the 'net for around 25 bucks. I always carry the stones, pastes and glass necessary to sharpen them. Considering your observation, I wonder if they realize that a simpler, cheaper and more efficient course of action exists.


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## andydude

Thanks for that BDL.

I expect the natural approach for most home users would be to seek to sharpen a blade when it appears the working edge is beginning to dull, rather than work to a prescribed regimen.

That said, I was focussed on the assessment of honing as I've been carrying around a memory of reading that knives should be properly sharpened a couple of times a year, and maintained using a rod between times. I just checked and that kind of advice is still around in several places.

sharpen knives twice a year - Google Search

Whereas if I understand correctly, your estimated average frequency of sharpening of once a week, is based on the home user not adequately using a rod and so relying more heavily on sharpening rather than maintenance for the serviceable edge?

Again to keep it on topic (waves hello to Mezzaluna ), that frequency of need being one factor affecting the relative value of options like Chefs Choice.


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## the boardsmith

Great discussion!

I am not a knife expert, understanding only the basics here. What I do understand is that quality knives, of which I own two Japanese knives that are used daily, deserve quality care which includes sharpening. I send each out once a year for professional sharpening and touch up the edges with a chromium oxide loaded strop very often. They stay sharp and never disappoint.

I also understand that there are people who are looking for the easy, fast and cheap way out. So an electric sharpener is their choice. Those who would use good stones will not use an electric sharpener because of the damages caused. Those who use electric sharpeners aren't as fussy about their edges and will not go to the trouble to sharpen with good stones. Like comparing a Mercedes with a Yugo. (As a professional woodworker, I hand sharpen all my chisels on good stones. I can't handle rough edges. They tear.)

Sorry if I made anyone mad. This is just my opinion.


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## the tourist

Oh, I don't perceive that anyone is mad. It's a forum, a place for debate.

I should probably add your same sentiments. My comments and beliefs are simply that, a personal point of view. Obviously you can use any product you desire, and if it works for you, that's your best course.

In the final analysis we have shown folks products and ideas they might have not considered.


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## boar_d_laze

BSMITH and Andy,

You guys are both on the right track when it comes to understanding what's going on and creating (or following) a regimen. Let's see if we can refine your understanding.

There are two aspects to dulling: Wear and waving/rolling.
Every time a knife gets used a little bit of the edge "wears" away. 

This means the edge which touches the food gradually broadens out. Speaking of the edge ... Because it's so fine it tends to bend a little bit, and even though the edge itself is still narrow it acts dull. When the edge is pushed back and forth, it's "waved," and when it's folded over on itself it's "rolled." 

There are four parts to sharpening: Profiling, sharpening, polishing, and honing. 

Profiling is the first part of a major resharpening. It's something most home knives only need a couple of times a year. A very hard knife, like a good Japanese made blade, would probably only need it once annually -- yo BoardSMITH. Profiling means moving a lit of metal in order to set or reset the bevel angles which were improperly set to begin with, or deformed with wear. On top of normal wear a lot of home sharpeners "feel" the old bevel and sharpen to the feel. Without getting to the whys and wherefores, over time, that makes the edge angle increasingly obtuse. 

Profiling is done with very aggressive, coarse stones. Anything coarser than 250# ANSI (American) or 500# JSI (Japanese) is a profiling stone. They move a lot of metal in a hurry. These stones leave a lot of scratch on the bevel, and a very rough edge. If you're sharpening a good knife, it's a good idea to hold off on these stones until you're sure of your technique. You can do a lot of damage with them.

Sharpening is the second part. If the knife isn't too worn the edge can be restored on a medium stone which doesn't remove too much metal. If you've just profiled the knife, the "sharpening" part of the procedure may be no more than the first stage of polishing. Usually though, it involves creating a "fresh edge" by drawing a "wire," aka "burr," then breaking it off clean; i.e., deburring. 

The sharpening grits may slightly overlap profiling grits and overlap polishing grits by quite a bit. Roughly 350# to 1200# ANSI, and 600# to 2500# - 4000# JSI (depending on the stone -- waterstones vary). Most home users find that an edge finished towards the high end of the "sharpening" range is plenty of polish. The edge will be fairly smooth but with a tiny bit of bite. Unless you're cutting a lot of sushi you probably don't need more polish. For instance, the most common final stone in the meat cutting industry (and most restaurants as well) is a Norton fine India, whcih is right around 350#

Initial polishing will remove all the micro-serration from the edge, useful when a super clean cut is needed for shaving or raw fish by way of examples; but after that it doesn't do much to actually make a knife sharper. For culinary purposes anything beyond a JSI 8,000# to 12,000# polish is vanity. It might be worth mentiong that as polishing becomes increasingly fine, western style sharpeners tend to strop (often using pastes) while Japanese style polishers continue to use the same back and forth sharpening action on stones. 

"Honing," which is straightening out rolls and waves, can be done on a flat stone or a rod hone. On a rod or oval hone it's sometimes called "steeling." Knives with highly asymmetric bevels such as single sided Japanese knives don't do rods. Instead honing is done with a "touch" up on a fairly fine stone. You can do the same thing with a western profile edge as well -- although a flat stone won't work nearly as efficiently as a rod. 

So what does all this mean for the home user who does not use stones?

For a typical chef's knife, of "good" quality (like a Wustoff), steel it at least twice a week. Get a gizmo like a "Sharpmaker,"sharpen it every six weeks or so. Send the knife out for a professional sharpening at least once a year. 

Alternatively, if you have a three stage Chef's Choice, use the finest stage as your steel, and run your knife through it a couple of times a week. Every couple of weeks, use the second stage. Twice a year use all three stages. 

Although it can do an adequate job on fine Japanese knives, I wouldn't use a Chef's Choice for anything really good. This isn't so much out of fear that the machine would do damage (the asian knife Chef's Choice models won't), but part of the joy of a really good knife is maintaining it. In other words, pure hobbyism.

Japanese knives with very asymmetric edge bevels are different and requre different maintenance. My maintenance schedule would be something like: Every other use on a polishing stone. Every week to every other week on the sharpening stones. Every month or so on the basic sharpening stone (~1000# to ~1200#), and twice a year reprofiling. That said, BoardSMITH's regimen seems fine to me too. 

Apropos of nothing, I favor a four stone approach: Profiling, basic sharpening, sharpening/polshing, and polishing. If you want more polishing than this can develop I suggest stropping on chromium oxide or diamond paste on some sort of float.

Apropos of a tiny corner of sharpening: Don't believe Norton's grit numbers when it comes to Arkansas stones. Novaculite crystals (they do the job in all Arkansas stones) tend to all run about the same size. What makes Arkansas stones different is the matrix which holds the crystals and the number of crystals in it. Furthermore, Arkansas stone performance on the particular vein and mine from which it came. 

BDL


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## andydude

As always, a thoughtfully crafted and informative reply BDL, and I thank you for it. 

I'm aware the only electric knife sharpener that's been mentioned to any degree, is the Chef's Choice range and you've offered some useful suggestions in post #8 on the subject of some of those models.

In respect to the extract below from Mezzaluna's original post, are there any other makes of electric knife sharpener worthy of consideration?


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## the tourist

In any debate you have to define terms and discuss postulates. In this regard, the discussion breaks down for me.

I'm stuck on the idea of "worthy of consideration." Just because something (anything) might be the 'best' of a group of similar devices doesn't mean it's on the top of the heap for performance.

I'd rather see a chef take the money he was going to spend on a Chefs Choice and buy a decent stone and a book on freehand sharpening--or even a Edge Pro model Apex.

Not only would the actual cost be similar, but he carry those items and his skill to whatever kitchen he worked from in the future.


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## boar_d_laze

General agreement here. 

A professional cook, using good knives, and using them alot would probably be far better served by learning to freehand sharpen on stone than using any machine or jig. 

But of course there are other circumstances. For instance, a butcher in a processing shop might not have the time to hand sharpen as often as needed. Anyway, they're not her knives. More to the point, many home cooks simply do not want to learn freehanding nor want to invest the time in setup, teardown and storage of a rod guide.

When it comes to prices, the options are surprisingly competitive. 

BDL


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## boar_d_laze

Andy and I discussed this a little in by email, but the question is lingering on the board and deserves an answer.

I'm not really familiar enough with anything other than Chef's Choice and a few of the super-expensive pro machines to give a recommendation. 

"Master Grade" makes three models using user replaceable, soft wheels. I like a lot of things about the design, but have never personally used the machine. I know a couple of butchers who have the commercial model in their shops (one custom butcher, the other a butcher for a chain) and they like them. But I've never used it and can't recommend it. If you Google Master Grade you can find some negative feedback. My feeling is they're worthy of investigation but I'd rather other people spent their money to do it. I'm happy to go into more depth if you like as long as your recognize that on my part it will be entirely theoretical gleaned from google and Master Grade's own ad copy.

Waring has a Chef's Choice "like" machine which goes for around $300 (street price). Never used it. It's a Waring commercial product, chances are its good. Also, chances are pretty high it's actually made by the same company but marketed under the Waring name -- just like Shun's electric sharpeners are

Again with Chef's Choice -- Chef's Choice machines work. They don't screw up your knives, as long as you use them appropriately (don't press too hard, use feel to follow the shape of the knife tip, don't twist the knife as you pull it). They have two significant weaknesses. First, they can't adjust for knives which require special bevels. It's a one or two size fits all sort of deal. Second, Chef's Choice machines need factory servicing every year or two -- if only for (a relatively inexpensive) cleaning. 

BDL


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## the tourist

I'm with you here for about 95%.

The only differing aspect of this discussion is the possible use of an Edge Pro Apex.

As for setup and tear down, it takes me less than a minute to pack up my Pro model when I go to a client's facility. In fact, the soft case that an Apex comes in could slide into your riding jacket if need be. As for a chef or butcher, such a rig could fit into one's employee locker and consumer little, if any, space.

But my concern is not just a Chefs Choice. It always amazes me when a consumer picks the worst, easiest, and cheapest commodity knowing in advance that they will receive poor performance.

And in the long run, their knives will lead shorter lives. In two decades, I have never had a client report that a waterstone sharpened knife has been consumed by sharpening. However, you can make a knife virtually "disappear" by constant aggressive grinding.

It's not the method here, it's a *mindset*.

A few years back a co-worker at a Gander Mountain where I set up came back early from a vacation. He reported that he had lunched a transmission. He showed me pictures of his truck, a 1998 rust bucket.

He stated, "Well, Chico, not everyone can afford a new truck like you."

My truck is a 1997.


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## andydude

Thanks BDL, I appreciate your posting your thoughts about those options. 

Hi Chico, 

Sure, and while there may be room to play around the edges when engaged in debate and/or information sharing, ideally responses are ultimately framed by a desire to recognise and work with an OP's stated needs.
While I understand the drive towards the suggestion to use stones, not to recognise that their use was specifically stated to be undesirable risks the thread becoming another chapter in a philosophical battle ranged over worth, rather than a practical response to the OP's question. I'm more than happy to own that you'd be an ideal person to drive and enrich a thread with a wider remit and I'm sure you would encourage a lot of people to try their hand at using whetstones.

Within this context at least however, there's a point at which there becomes the need not to focus on those things that aren't in play, and recognise the framework that has been presented. The focus being to see if there's a way to widen awareness of those options that do remain, in a way that meets the OP's needs.

I have no idea what the personal investment (eg. skill development, time taken) as opposed to the financial investment is in the Apex Edge Pro system(s), but as I don't suppose it has the drawback of needing to be factory serviced that sounds like an option of interest. However, and I don't mean this as an attack of any sort, while this option has been raised as not entirely trivial by BDL, you yourself haven't posted anything that suggests that it is far enough away from a users perception of buying individual stones and hand sharpening, to make it a useful inclusion in this debate.

Andy.


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## the tourist

Andy, my intent was *not* to hijack or belittle the OP's question or views. I think the discussion touches on ideas not in evidence.

To me, the discussion of a Chef's Choice is like asking, "Why is a Mustang better than Camaro?" It makes the assumption that one is clearly better before the discussion begins.

Way before the specifiics of this conversation picked up speed we should have discussed if mechanized eqquipment is *ever better* from jump street.

To a young chef or culinary student I think this is a very important viewpoint. If you've been around the block and know the risks, that's a different story.


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## andydude

I understand what you're saying Chico, and your passion and care is something that adds value to a thread which I personally very much appreciate and enjoy.


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## chrislehrer

Just to return to where this started:
The fundamental questions, then, are as follows.

1. Is there an electric knife sharpener that will do what Mezzaluna wants serviceably?

2. Is there another solution that will be superior, easy to use, and is NOT based on a set of sharpening stones?

3. Is there some reason to convince Mezzaluna to discard the self-imposed limitation on stones?

My read of this thread (and many others) is:

1. Yes. Chef's Choice. BDL has given model suggestions, e.g. the 1520.

2. Sort of. The EdgePro is basically a set of stones with a rod guide, but it may well not have the issues that Mezzaluna objects to about a set of stones. It's pretty easy to use, and fairly pricey.

3. No. Sure, if you want perfect edges to your precise specifications, you're going to have to do something different from what Mezzaluna wants, but what Mezzaluna asks for is not perfect edges to precise specifications.

Chico, you keep pointing to perfection: the perfect fugubiki and all that. I respect your skill and your trade, but it's not at stake here. Mezzaluna is, from my impression of other threads, not totally insane, and not going to cut fugu. Besides, by the time the fugu gets to the fugubiki, it's totally safe anyway: your life is only on the line when the deba is out, and after that it's just a question of cutting a very tough-fleshed fish paper-thin. The quality of the edge doesn't seriously enter the safety equation: it's about perfect texture, and that's all. Which is not to say it doesn't matter, but it does not in fact matter a lick for 99% of Western culinary adventures, including haute cuisine, and it certainly doesn't matter for 99+% of Western home cooks however adventurous and sophisticated.

Of course, "doesn't matter" does not mean "something to ignore." It means that if you don't wish to get into these questions, you don't have to. If like BDL or me or so many others here and at Fred's, you want to play with knives and edges and stones and stuff, of course it's important, even if probably it doesn't really matter objectively. But Mezzaluna has stated limitations, and I take it that the limit on stones is precisely this: we're not talking about a knife hobbyist lunatic, but someone who wants decent, serviceable edges with minimal fuss and expense.


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## phaedrus

If the OP wants an electric sharpener that doesn't use stones, then perhaps the ideal purchase might be a 30x1" Harbor Freight grinder with a few decent belts. With minimal practice you can get very good edges that way, and the whole investment would be less than you'd pay for the Chef's Choice.


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## the tourist

First, To Andydude, thanks for understanding the overall view. I have been desperately trying to parse my verbiage to show another point of view in a non-confrontational manner. On a topic such as this amid so many other professionals a debate should be spirited but never angry. I hope I uphold that ideal.

I understand. In many ways I *do not* expect a chef or culinary student to immediate jump from a used Dexter-Russell to the top of the line Hattori. But nor do I think we shouldn't evolve and embrace other courses of action.

I usually have a few "test mules" with me in my travels. You should see the looks when I offer, "Here, try this." As I've stated, a student who moonlights at our local Chinese restaurant reports that his entire class could benefit from better and sharper knives. (To this, I don't think they were taught how to sharpen on their own.)

I believe these habits are carried into their professional lives.

As a poor student who finally got his first job, do you remember the first decent pair of winter style boots you purchased?

BTW, did you ever get to borrow a properly prepared sashimi?


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## chrislehrer

Sorry, I honestly don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?


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## the tourist

From your past posts I believe that you have seen some of the finest Japanese knives produced. 

Did you ever "put one to the test." And by that I mean to include such a knife in your daily chores so that it becomes familiar to your style and duties.


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## chrislehrer

Certainly not. I'm not made of money, nor do I believe I have anything to gain by going up-market from where my knife collection already stands -- which is passably high by most standards.


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## the tourist

I understand. In speaking with you it come to my attention that not all of our members may understand why I discuss in the manner we share. To that end, I just posted my credentials and beliefs.

Chris, I hope you don't mind but I'd like to pick your brain from time to time. I have never been to Japan, I just interview my clients.


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## charlieb

What does the term "special bevels" mean in this context? Anything other than 50/50 or a single bevel? Seems to me that many of the most popular Japanese style gyutos sold in the US have asymmetrical bevels. Does that mean they would not work in a Chef's Choice?


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## boar_d_laze

Yo Charlie,

Given the state of the short term memory, asking for an explanation of what I was thinking two months ago is a bit problematic.

But...

I was probably thinking of things like hamaguri and convex bevels.

Yes. I mean no. I mean yes. The syntax is confusing. Whatever.

Any given Chef's Choice ("CC") will only create, repair, and profile the bevel(s) it's built to create, repair and profile.

Asymmetry isn't a problem for a Chef's Choice as long as you're talking about the proportion -- by way of examples let's 80/20 66.6/33.3, 60/40, or even a chisel edge. A CC will create that sort of asymmetry for you if you sharpen one side more than another. As with almost every other type of sharpening, you're responsible for the setting the exact degree of asymmetry by eye.

If, by asymmetry, you mean that the edge angles are not equal -- unless one of them is 0* as with a chisel edge, you're SOL. A CC will only do what it can do. In the case of the "Asian" models, that's 15*, although I think one of them might do a double bevel with the underlying angle at 15*, and the cutting angle somewhat more obtuse.

In order to sharpen a chisel edge profile (bevel on one side only, other side flat), you sharpen one side only -- then deburr by "sharpening" the other side with the finest grit slot with as few passes as necessary.

In other words, sharpening assymetrically on a CC is very much like freehand sharpening except the edge angles are predetermined. Oh, one other difference, CCs only polish to a limited level.

You seem most interested about sharpening a "gyuto" with a CC. Yes, it can and will do a good job, but not excellent, job as long as you're happy with 15* edge angles -- and/or with CC's idea of a double-bevel or "trizor" profile. The CC's limitations are: (1) No flexibility to create an ideal bevel -- say you wanted a double bevel edge angle of 15*/10* for a MAC Pro; and (2) CCs polishing capacity depends on the machine; but on their best it maxxes at the equivalent of JSI 3000# ish. That's adequate for most kitchen work, but a good "gyuto" will take and hold a significantly finer edge than that. Moreover, a good cook will appreciate the difference.

Boiled down, a capable freehand sharpener with a good kit but who chooses a CC, exchanges a bit of ultimate sharpness and profiling flexibility for a lot of convenience.

Another part of the cost/benefit consideration includes the greater likelihood a CC owner with the machine on the counter will more likely maintain a fresh edge than someone using a stone set or a rod-guide. Moreover, there are other considerations as part of the final analysis. For instance, whether and how the sharpener "steels" her (or his) knives.

And what about rod-guide sharpening systems? Well besides the fact that they're a bit of a pain to set up and take down, they're problematic around the tip -- or anywhere else there's a lot of curve. Also, a good rod-guide such as the Edge Pro Apex (Kit 4) is expensive.

So, is a CC a good choice for someone buying a "gyuto?" As always, "it depends." In this case, it depends both on the purchaser and the gyuto. In the grand scheme of methods which create the best possible edges my ranking goes: 
Freehand on stones;
Best rod-guides (e.g., Edge Pro Kit 4);
Other rod-guides (Lasky, Gatco); Edge-guide on stones; and Chef's Choice, and equivalent (although I don't know if there are any) machines.
Then, there's a huge drop off in edge quality and/or a huge increase in the amount of effort required to create and maintain a good edge.

In a way, it's like Plato arguing with Aristotle about whether an ideal edge is better than an actual, likely edge. I'm with Ari. The Greek expression _gnothi seauton_ (know thyself)expresses the bottom line. It's not really a question of which method will give you the ideal edge so much as which method will give you the best edge when you actually use your knives.

At our home, we sharpen our knives (that is, I sharpen them) freehand on a four stone set, and maintain them on two rod-hones (aka steels). However, a CC is a better choice for most cooks -- especially those who aren't interested in sharpening as a separate event -- since it will be used more often, and be used appropriately.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## 4wheelcycle

"A Chef's Choice machine is an excellent choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen and aren't knife hobbyists"

I recently came across this post comment from BDL and I strongly agree.  I bought the Edge Pro Pro model setup from Dan Dale many years ago.  Although I learned to use it effectively, I was never sufficiently committed to take my Wusthof and Masamoto knives down to my workshop and set up the Edge Pro to sharpen them properly on a regular basis.  I bought the Chef's Choice 325 two stage sharpener and kept it in my kitchen.  I hated to use the first stage on my Wusthof knives because it grinds away so much metal, and of course I never used the first stage on my Masamotos. 

So I ended up sharpening the knives once or twice a year on the Edge Pro and just using the second stropping stage of the 325 to keep the knives reasonably sharp the rest of the time.

I finally got tired of this routine and I just bought a three stage Chef'sChoice 15 XV.   I used the first stage to reset the angles on my Wusthofs to 15 degrees.  It only took two or three passes per edge to get a good burr.  Then I used the second stage to establish a burr on the edges of all the Wushoffs and the Masamotos.  This only took two passes per edge and it removed very little metal compared to the rather violent stage one.  Finally I stropped all of the edges with two or three passes per edge on stage three.

When I was done all of my knives were uniformly sharp - and I mean very sharp.  Their cutting performance is as good as I was doing on the Edge Pro.  If you look closely at the Wusthof edges that went through stage one the upper bevel is pretty ugly - you can see that some pretty heavy grinding was done to reset the edge.  But lower down the stage two bevel looks OK and the stropping area looks quite reasonable.  My guess is that it may be about 1,000 grit, certainly not a 3,000 grit polish.  However, the knives cut into my thumbnail, and the food I prepare at home, very cleanly and uniformly along the whole length of the blade.

The bottom line is that I am sold on the 15 XV!  I never expect to use stage one again on these knives.  I will strop as needed, right in my kitchen, and use stage two when that is needed.  I am not a sharpening hobbyist and, for me, the the Chef'sChoice 15 XV does everything I want to do.


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## phaedrus

4wheelcycle said:


> I bought the Edge Pro Pro model setup from Dan Dale many years ago. Although I learned to use it effectively, I was never sufficiently committed to take my Wusthof and Masamoto knives down to my workshop and set up the Edge Pro to sharpen them properly on a regular basis.


I assume you mean _Ben_ Dale, the inventor/owner of the EP system. It's a shame you didn't stick with the system- not only will it do a much better job, it would have preserved the asymmetry of your Masamoto. IIRC, they're ground 70/30...how did you deal with that on the Chef's Choice?


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## Iceman

WOW. I got halfway through my reply before I realized how old this thread is. LOL @ ME. Anyway ..... I'm a hack. I use very inexpensive knives, and an inexpensive sharpener. My knives however, are always sharp with no noticeable time taken from work (10-15 seconds a few x's a night). This is my sharpener:



An EDGEMAKER DELUXE - Sharpen, Hone, Polish tool.

This particular one is new to me (3 months ago) because my "old" one was stepped on and broken into pieces. I had it since the mid-70's. This one costs +/- $20. It's always in my chef's bag along w/ my knives (< $60 for 3 knives total) and other stuff (all inexpensive but very important tools that you don't ever find when necessary at a moments notice). I've been a pro chef for a good long time. For me, my own personal tools are important to me. I'm not so concerned, other than for good old fashioned conversation, if anyone thinks they're junky, cheap, novice or amateur. I've always gotten work because of my skills, not because of the bag I carry.

** *_Please don't take any attitude from my post today. I'm just down 0-2 in play-off picks and I've got no access to watch the game on right now. _


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## 4wheelcycle

Phaedrus,

Thanks for the correction on Ben's first name, sorry I got it wrong.  It's been awhile since I bought the system from him.  

I had already taken my Masamoto VG series knives to 15 degrees on both edges with the Edge Pro.


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## racineboxer

4wheelcycle said:


> "A Chef's Choice machine is an excellent choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen and aren't knife hobbyists"
> 
> I recently came across this post comment from BDL and I strongly agree. I bought the Edge Pro Pro model setup from Dan Dale many years ago. Although I learned to use it effectively, I was never sufficiently committed to take my Wusthof and Masamoto knives down to my workshop and set up the Edge Pro to sharpen them properly on a regular basis. I bought the Chef's Choice 325 two stage sharpener and kept it in my kitchen. I hated to use the first stage on my Wusthof knives because it grinds away so much metal, and of course I never used the first stage on my Masamotos.
> 
> So I ended up sharpening the knives once or twice a year on the Edge Pro and just using the second stropping stage of the 325 to keep the knives reasonably sharp the rest of the time.
> 
> I finally got tired of this routine and I just bought a three stage Chef'sChoice 15 XV. I used the first stage to reset the angles on my Wusthofs to 15 degrees. It only took two or three passes per edge to get a good burr. Then I used the second stage to establish a burr on the edges of all the Wushoffs and the Masamotos. This only took two passes per edge and it removed very little metal compared to the rather violent stage one. Finally I stropped all of the edges with two or three passes per edge on stage three.
> 
> When I was done all of my knives were uniformly sharp - and I mean very sharp. Their cutting performance is as good as I was doing on the Edge Pro. If you look closely at the Wusthof edges that went through stage one the upper bevel is pretty ugly - you can see that some pretty heavy grinding was done to reset the edge. But lower down the stage two bevel looks OK and the stropping area looks quite reasonable. My guess is that it may be about 1,000 grit, certainly not a 3,000 grit polish. However, the knives cut into my thumbnail, and the food I prepare at home, very cleanly and uniformly along the whole length of the blade.
> 
> The bottom line is that I am sold on the 15 XV! I never expect to use stage one again on these knives. I will strop as needed, right in my kitchen, and use stage two when that is needed. I am not a sharpening hobbyist and, for me, the the Chef'sChoice 15 XV does everything I want to do.


Thanks for the review 4wheel.

Your comments pretty much mirror mine in that the XV gets the knives pretty darn sharp and wow is it ever convienant. I keep mine in my lazy susan and it literally only takes 10 seconds setup or put away.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried pulling your knives through stage 3 stropping a whole bunch of times and would you say that increases the polish? I ask this because the manual says to make 3 pairs of pulls through stage 3 and then it goes on to say "where the finest and smoothest cuts are preferred in order to prepare smooth unmarked sections of fruits or vegetables, sharpen in stages 1 & 2 as described above and make extra pulls thru stage 3".

I guess I could go buy a little magnifying glass and experiment with this myself. I was just curious if had already done so.


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## boar_d_laze

You can create and preserve asymmetry with a Chef's Choice, and even sharpen chisel edges.  As always, adjust asymmetry by eye and with more strokes on one side than another as needed.

I can get a better edge freehanding than with a CC, but I have two complete four-stone sets of bench stones (one waterstones, the other oilstones), a complete set of strops and stropping compounds, two honing rods (one steel, one glass), 50+ years of experience, and enjoy the meditative aspects of the exercise.  But like 4Wheel says, the CC edge is pretty darn good, and the machine gets used often enough that owners always have a good knife. 

With all due respect, carbide sharpners such as the "Edgemaker" bring a host of issues.  Among other things their edges are quite toothy and they are very tough on knives.  I'm not saying you shouldn't use them, but it is a good thing to know what's what.  Very fast, coarse sharpeners have consequences.

BDL.


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## petemccracken

boar_d_laze said:


> You can create and preserve asymmetry with a Chef's Choice, and even sharpen chisel edges. As always, adjust asymmetry by eye and with more strokes on one side than another as needed...BDL.


Something that, generally, cannot be accomplished on most hand held carbide, v-type, or roller sharpeners, correct?


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## petemccracken

> Originally Posted by *boar_d_laze*
> 
> ...Very fast, coarse sharpeners have consequences.
> 
> BDL.


Not all of which are generally desirable! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif


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## phaedrus

boar_d_laze said:


> With all due respect, carbide sharpners such as the "Edgemaker" bring a host of issues. Among other things their edges are quite toothy and they are very tough on knives. I'm not saying you shouldn't use them, but it is a good thing to know what's what. Very fast, coarse sharpeners have consequences.
> 
> BDL.


The Edgemaker is quite unlike any carbide sharpener I've ever seen. It's actually pretty gentle on edges, although I wouldn't use one on very hard, thin edges.


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## Iceman

WOW. I'm amazed at how long I've lasted. LOL. I'm still using the first chef's knife I got as a gift in 1974. I think it can be replaced today for $15.


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## gabs88

Mezzaluna said:


> I'm looking for an electric knife sharpener. I sifted through more recent threads on this forum but I want to have a take on more recent machines. I'm a home cook who uses knives daily but I don't give them the kind of use they'd get in a professional setting. I DON'T want to buy sharpening stones, no matter how superior they may be. They're not in consideration.
> 
> I have a small set of Henckels knives (chef, santoku, boning, paring, etc.) and one Global 5" cook's knife. I know the Global has a different edge from the Henckels, so I wonder if there's a machine that's not too expensive but could sharpen both blade styles. I've looked on line and am leaning toward the Chef's Choice 110 (about $90) or the Edgecraft Chef's Choice 120 (about $150).
> 
> Your thoughts please? If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'd like to hear from the "knife people".
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Mezzaluna


I may sound like im here to reccomend vulkanus to everyone but really, im dazzeled by how good it is and after owning and trying several different electric and manual ones im just glad I found my charmer.. Still keeping leather strop and sharpening stones but I dont really feel i need em


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## luis j

boar_d_laze said:


> The "tricks," such as they are, to using a Chef's Choice depends on running the knife through the guide at a smooth and moderate pace, with very little pressure beyond the knife's own weight and using your sense of touch to follow the changing contour of the edge as it apporaches the tip.
> 
> A Chef's Choice machine is an excellent choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen and aren't knife hobbyists. It will keep your knives sharper for daily use than most services. It isn't nearly as much trouble as a rod guide. It doesn't requre the comprehensive skills freehanding does.
> 
> If you like you can use me as a specific example of a skilled, freehand sharpener. With appropriate stones, it would take me around half an hour to completely reprofile (including repair of minor chips), sharpen and moderately polish to a very fine edge a typical German or Japanese knife. On the other hand, you could do the same thing to not quite so good an edge on a Chef's Choice in less than ten minutes.
> 
> I can take a slightly dull knife to very sharp in about five minutes. On a Chef's Choice, going to sharp, would take about two.
> 
> For most home cooks, the time saving isn't so much about time as about burden and convenience. The great thing about Chef's Choice is that they get used and knives are kept sharp.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> BDL


Hi guys... I totally agree with BDL, I own a chef's choice 120 and has been in my posession for more than 4 years and it sharpens very well if you're not the guy that wants to shave his face with his cooking knife. I love to use the whetstone, but when I'm in a rush or my mum wants to get his knifes sharpened, I can always count on the chef's choice. It's money well spent. The first stage is very harsh, if the knife is really dull then I use it, the second stage is my favourite one and usually that's the main one that I use, and in my device I find almost useless the third one, I don't know if it has a bad stone or is just my idea, but anyway, I still like and recommend the chef's choice.

My two cents.

Best regards.

Luis/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif


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## betterbisque

As a prior professional meat retailer (4 year apprenticeship in NZ) I have used a good number of knifes and sharpening methods.

1st is the knife. For a reasonable, very affordable, easy to sharpen knife - US made Dexter-Russell is hard to beat. Most of my knives are old Gustav Emil Ern, but I use Dexters and like them. For home use they are more than enough and a bargain.

Clearly hand sharpening is superior, but the post clearly wants to exclude that such that these discussions are not on point. I have used the Chef's brand sharpeners and was not impressed, even for a home kitchen. From what I have seen they consist of a vibrating plate with an abrasive compound. On soft knifes they are somewhat useful, but the poster is using Henckel knifes that tend to be rather hard. On harder steel, my experience is that they are not up to the job.  

I have never been a fan of commercial sharpener services or machines, emery in particular. However, after a number of years out of the trade I did have cause to re-enter. I'm not to concerned these days with time spent slaving over a hot stone, so I bought a Tru-Hone machine. Admittedly they are $7-800 but so are the F-Dick machines that are similar. Tru-Hone uses 4 counter rotating wheels that are easily changed out with grits in excess of 2000 and diamond available. Additionally to the infinite 3-stage angle set is infinite speed control. Combined this is hard to beat. I like it and use it and if combined with the Arkansas finish step below, absent highly skilled professional sharpeners, I do not see a better alternative.

In the trade I used 3 stone sets, though usually on the finest stone and finished with Arkansas stone. A useful technique for finishing is to reverse the stroke for the left hand stroke (assuming right handed user) or, point first on every other stoke.


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## kokopuffs

betterbisque said:


> As a prior professional meat retailer (4 year apprenticeship in NZ) I have used a good number of knifes and sharpening methods.
> 
> 1st is the knife. For a reasonable, very affordable, easy to sharpen knife - US made Dexter-Russell is hard to beat. Most of my knives are old Gustav Emil Ern, but I use Dexters and like them. For home use they are more than enough and a bargain.
> 
> Clearly hand sharpening is superior, but the post clearly wants to exclude that such that these discussions are not on point. I have used the Chef's brand sharpeners and was not impressed, even for a home kitchen. From what I have seen they consist of a vibrating plate with an abrasive compound. On soft knifes they are somewhat useful, but the poster is using Henckel knifes that tend to be rather hard. On harder steel, my experience is that they are not up to the job.
> 
> I have never been a fan of commercial sharpener services or machines, emery in particular. However, after a number of years out of the trade I did have cause to re-enter. I'm not to concerned these days with time spent slaving over a hot stone, so I bought a Tru-Hone machine. Admittedly they are $7-800 but so are the F-Dick machines that are similar. Tru-Hone uses 4 counter rotating wheels that are easily changed out with grits in excess of 2000 and diamond available. Additionally to the infinite 3-stage angle set is infinite speed control. Combined this is hard to beat. I like it and use it and if combined with the Arkansas finish step below, absent highly skilled professional sharpeners, I do not see a better alternative.
> 
> In the trade I used 3 stone sets, though usually on the finest stone and finished with Arkansas stone. A useful technique for finishing is to reverse the stroke for the left hand stroke (assuming right handed user) or, point first on every other stoke.


Which model of Dexter Russel chef/cook knife as seen and/or listed on *this page*???


----------



## betterbisque

The sg145 series 8 or 10 inch. It has the soft touch handle, which i prefer.


----------



## knifesavers

betterbisque said:


> The sg145 series 8 or 10 inch. It has the soft touch handle, which i prefer.


Dexter changed the handle design of the SofGrips about 2 years ago. Most online pics show the old one. Dexter shows the new.

Biggest difference, outside of the different contour of the handle, in it to me was the non slip grip contours were made much larger and have a bigger separation between them.

I have seen far too many Sani-Safe and SofGrips of old loaded with gaack in the handle ridges. The new will likely be far more resistant to that.

http://knives.dexter1818.com/shop/sofgrip.html

Jim


----------



## tony balthazar

boar_d_laze said:


> Chef's Choice makes a model that does both 15 and 20 degree edge angles. It's prosaically designated the Model 1520. It isn't cheap but it comes closest to what you said you want.
> 
> Possibly better is getting either their three stage XV Model 15 or thier two stage 315s and letting the machine reset the edges on your German knives. My net friend Fred, who is a true expert, says that German steel won't hold a 15* edge angle without the edge collapsing (i.e., rolling and requiring either frequent steeling and/or resharpening). However the Chef's Choice manufactuer, Edgecraft, suggests a 15* edge for better Germans; and in my experience, based on hand sharpening a number of Henkels and Wusties, they hold the edge fairly well. That is, they'll work sharper with the more acute edge, but the edge will need extra and more frequent attention. No big deal if you keep the Chef's Choice on the counter.
> 
> The Edge Pro Apex, the rod-guided system recommended by Mary, is relatively expensive AND also tedious to set up. That said, you can get an excellent edge -- as good as a good sharpener can get from most stones -- without the learning curve stones require. There are other, less expensive rod-guides like Lansky but none of them work as well as the Edge Pro.
> 
> I'm thinking the Chef's Choice XV or 1520 would be best if you can afford them. Otherwise the 315s.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> BDL


I second all that ;o)


----------



## cuts and scraps

I would echo the opinions of those in favor of hand sharpening. The electric sharpeners remove a good deal of metal from your blades and they don't seem to last as long to me. If you don't want stones you could always stick with a sharpening steel. I have a few different kinds made by F.Dick of Germany. They make many diferent styles and types. Good luck with your search.


----------



## anamouse

Mezzaluna, I'm a bit of a knife collector, and rather than answer your question, I'm going to talk about the reasons you may not want to put your better knives into any electric sharpening machine, including the really expensive ones like Che\fs choice


----------



## anamouse

Mezzaluna, I don't like electric knife sharpeners but occasionally see them being used and can appreciate the fact that there are lot of people who don't have the skill or desire to spend the time it takes to hand sharpen their knives, including some who use them professionally for 8 hours a day. Electric sharpeners are easy to use, fast and produce a very usable result which is all some folks want, but they do have their limitations and problems.

I am a collector and don't like anything that hurts them and electric sharpeners distort the blade shape in ways that upset me.   For starters unless you are a robot, the very even curve on your knife's blade will gradually become a wavy line and their is nothing you can do about it with electric sharpeners like those made by Chef's Choice.  In fact they can't even reach the first 1/2 inch of the blade closest to the handle, so all the metal they remove starts 1/2 inch from the handle.  Use it a lot and you will get a dip in the blade starting at that point, and there is nothing you can do about it.  If it's a knife you use for chopping, now part of the blade won't touch the chopping block.

I admit many people who use stones, and steels similarly distort their blades shape, so it's not like you can't go wrong doing it the old way, but it's impossible to do a real good job sharpening a fine knife the "right way", and maintain the designed blade shape, with the electric versions.

However if you're a butcher slicing meat for 8 hours a day, and want an easy way to make your knives quite serviceable without having to hone or steel them yourself, that Chef's Choice sharpener might be just what the doctor ordered.  In that case you're not using expensive chef's knives, and you probably don't care if your inexpensive commercial quality butcher knives look like heck, and need to be replaced every few months.


----------



## foodpump

...With the main reason that knives "shrink" dramatically every time you use such machine... 

It's an electrically powered abrasive wheel, it's job is to remove metal.  If you do things by hand it's hard to remove too much metal, but with a machine, it's very easy.


----------



## ziggyb

My 2 cents.
Chef's choice can't fit the bolster of a Henkles, if you have them with bolsters.
Over time, your bolsters will be too long in the tooth, literally, and will need to be addressed as you will quickly develop a space between the long bolster and the block.

That said, Chef's Choice are not fool proof and there is a learning curve and maintaining hand stability.

I would stick with just the fine grit wheel of a Chefs Choice and not allow it to regrind.

As far as grit, 400 - 600 does fine on a working kitchen knife.
1000 is nice but not necessary. Over polishing is great for aesthetics, but not so much for use.
In fact, I recommend anything over 1500 grit, take a ceramic rod of around 1200 grit and give the edge a few runs.
You'll be very happy the bit of tooth it gives the edge and allows it to grip a ripe tomato.

I'm not a fan of Chefs Choice as there are too many variables and problems.
Any system that locks the knife and angle in place would be better in my opinion, and you can choose exactly what grit works for the job.

Finally, I'd say the best bang for the buck is a cheapo $30 Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander, with a variety of belts up to around 1K, plus a leather stropping belt with a 1 micron paste and a bit of practice and life with knives is sweet.

Again, my 2 cents


----------



## slicespanishham

I have enjoyed reading and learning with all your explanations about knives and sharpening. I will very much appreciate your opinion on the following knives and their sharpening. As I come from Spain and I am the author of "Mastering the fine art of slicing Spanish ham" I am most interested in further learning from the matter. On knife sharpening I have not experience at all, sorry to say I am not planing to learn hand sharpening, but I will like to extend what I may learn here to others.

I own quite good quality brands of Spanish, French and German Knives and in general I only cook for myself with lots of love and interest on improvement and new techniques.

Better get to the point, should I say to the edge of "cuchillos jamoneros", which are the special knives used for slicing bone in Spanish ham. This knives are long, narrow, flexible, rounded tip and must be very sharp. Some times we use the so call "salmon knife" that has got some indents on the blade.

I need to sharpen all my knives, the presume European 20º and the "jamon" knife, which I don't know -and does not say anywhere in which angle has been ground- but for what I have been learning via internet since yesterday it should be grind at 15º. I point out that Iberico ham has a oily/buttery texture.

On my defense to get an electrical knife sharpener I will say that I cried last time when I saw my ham knives coming from a professional sharpener. Also I leave on top of a mounting, far away for searching for better professionals, and I don`t have the capacity of getting into manual sharpening.

For all this, here are my questions:

Do you know the bevel angle of a salmon knife?

Will you recommend the same angle for a jamon knife?

What means 2 stage sharpening or 3 stage (Chef's Choice?

Chef's Choice does 4 sharpeners that presumedly sharpen in 15º an 20º, will you give some pros and cons about them?

 - Chefschoice 1520 
[h2]- Chef'sChoice[emoji]174[/emoji] Trizor XV[emoji]174[/emoji] Sharpener EdgeSelect[emoji]174[/emoji] Model 15[/h2]
[h2]- Chef'sChoice[emoji]174[/emoji] Diamond Hone[emoji]174[/emoji] Sharpener for 15° Knives Model 315XV[/h2]

[h2]- Chef'sChoice[emoji]174[/emoji] Hybrid[emoji]174[/emoji] AngleSelect[emoji]174[/emoji] Diamond Hone[emoji]174[/emoji] Knife Sharpener Model 290[/h2]
I will be very, very thankful for answers and suggestions.

Gracias

Pilar/img/vbsmilies/smilies/chef.gif


----------



## galley swiller

SliceSpanishHam, Welcome to ChefTalk!

First, I must say that I do not like electric knife sharpeners.

When you use an electric knife sharpener, you are putting the edge of your knife against a very rapidly spinning abrasive wheel. That abrasive wheel generates heat at the edge of the knife. Since the edge of a knife needs to be very thin, the heat developed is concentrated in the steel at the edge. In fact, so much heat is localized at the edge that the amount of heat can (and often does)) re-temper the steel carbides and crystals of the steel, and in doing so, destroys the proper tempering of the edge. The result is a knife edge which is made much more fragile and will not hold its sharpness for long.

Much better is for you to learn to use proper knife sharpening with "water stones", which are artificial stones with a water-soluable binder. You will need at least 3 stones: a coarse stone for edge repairs with a grit of about 500 or so, a general medium stone for maintenance with a grit of about 800 to 1200 and a fine stone for polishing your edges of about 3000 to 5000 (though with Spanish, French and German stainless steel knives, that polish probably won't last very long). The stones should be a minimum of 200 mm long and 50 mm wide, though longer and wider is better. And one very important note: *NEVER USE OIL WITH A WATER STONE. Water ONLY!!*

Water stones are first soaked in water for about 15 to 20 minutes (though there are some high quality stones that are "splash and go" that do not need soaking, but simply an immediate application of water). The stones are then laid out and the knife edge is then lightly run at the proper angle along the stone in a "swoosh" which allows the entire length of the edge to have contact with the stone. Do this until you raise a bead. Then turn over and do it on the other side of the blade. When you have raised a bead along each side of the edge on your coarsest grit, then repeat with your next higher grit. For maintenance, you can begin a session with a higher grit. In between grits, you can run the edge of your Spanish, French and German knives through a small piece of cork to take off the bead.

For a very good tutorial, see Chad Ward here: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/ (Please be advised that eGullet is currently down for Internet maintenance).

For excellent videos, watch Jon Broida here: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

I would also suggest you might want to try a good Japanese knife. A good type of knife might be a "sujihiki", which is the Japanese version of a carving knife. I do suggest that you do not get a "Damascus" blade, since those are more expensive than necessary and are subject to being scratched up and looking awful very quickly. I also suggest you stay away from and do not buy a VG-10 core steel knife, since those are more difficult to properly sharpen (the bead must be properly abraded on a VG-10 core steel knife, or the bead will break off and you end up needing to re-sharpen immediately - a major source of frustration).

Hope that helps.

Galley Swiller


----------



## slicespanishham

Many thanks for your prompt response and the detail explanations which I am going to look over with time and care.

Muchas gracias


----------



## rick alan

If you google japanese salmon slicer you will find many options. This one is in Swedish stainless, very awesome steel:


There are others, including the typically narrow blade with round tip. Misono and Tojihuro are a couple more makers.

Rick


----------



## slicespanishham

I have open an enquiry with the top professional ham slicers. Meanwhile I have the feeling that the Japanese blades are not as flexible as needed for slicing the ham around the most complicated angles close and around the bone.

Some parts of the ham have to be sliced just with the four cm. close to the rounded tip, others with the center of the knife blade and others with the blade part close to the handle. Some times we have to slice with the blade quite curved. It is all dictated by the shape of the ham and the size of the slice that has to be obtain, never much bigger than a credit card, always the width of the ham.

The ham slicing knife has to have the same width from handle to tip, we slice totally horizontal and in deep angles and the knife edge some times touches the bone, for all this and without having one Japanese knife in hand I am not sure that they will work, as I have not seen one that looks as described. If the steel is harder will not work for the best techniques and rules on slicing a bone in Spanish ham.

I pay close attention to all your writings, and I thank you in advance for your interest


----------



## rick alan

The carbon Sabatier would certainly be worth looking into, carbon gets sharper than stainless, and is easier to sharpen.

The Tojihuro (narrow, thin, constant width, round tip) is made of aus-8 steel, their  heat treat is 58RC+, which is good. AUS-8 is better than the typical German stainless.  Not sure what your Spanish Acro or other knives you are currently using are made of but they may possibly similar in quality, and possibly not.  Jero, a Portuguese company, uses aus-8, but their heat treat is too soft.  

A significant step up would be aus-10, or Swedish stainless like AEB-L or 13c26 if a proper knife with one of these exists.

Most importantly though, as GS pointed out, is to do the hand sharpening.  and if you have the skills to cut consistent paper-thin slices of ham, then you also have all the skill you need to hand sharpen.

Rick


----------



## slicespanishham

I have tried a knife with a pointed tip and it does not work so well on clearing ham next to the joints as the bones have rounded shape.

In the past when slicing ham was not so sophisticated, the knives had a pointed tip, and in some brands they still are, normally -not all ways- on knives of lesser quality and price. 

I have got an old  good knife with pointed tip and I find it all right for slicing bone-in shoulder ham, but for the back legs known as hams, I am happier with the round point in the knives


----------



## slicespanishham

I have not explained well enough why I find important the rounded tip...my English writing is not so good....mmmmm, how can I explain.

True is that bones in shoulder o back leg hams are of rounded shape, but the bone structure of the shoulder and back leg -being similar- are quite different.

As you empty the ham meat from the bone structure you work more with the end of the knife and get closer to the joints of the structure, the joins don't create strait hollows, so is better round end in the knife. A good slicer, removes the ham thinly sliced with only one knife, working around every where, leaving nothing on the straight bones, or in the inner part of the joints.

No many people slices shoulder ham, its is even more difficult than a leg of ham. Others do slice it with rounded tip knife. I prefer a certain point in the knife because a lot of the ham in the shoulder is on the "fan bone" or shoulder blade which has straight and flat areas.

We slice the ham with the hip end towards our chest and never change the body position or move around the ham to do the slicing.

I am not sure if I have explain myself


----------



## slicespanishham

Yes that salmon Sabatier knife has the shape to use as a ham slicer. It could be possible that the trend of making rounded tips for "jamon knives" came out of introducing salmon knives into slicing ham skills.


----------



## slicespanishham

I am ordering the Sabatier from the french web site, thank you for the tip 


Rick Alan said:


> The carbon Sabatier would certainly be worth looking into, carbon gets sharper than stainless, and is easier to sharpen.
> 
> The Tojihuro (narrow, thin, constant width, round tip) is made of aus-8 steel, their heat treat is 58RC+, which is good. AUS-8 is better than the typical German stainless. Not sure what your Spanish Acro or other knives you are currently using are made of but they may possibly similar in quality, and possibly not. Jero, a Portuguese company, uses aus-8, but their heat treat is too soft.
> 
> A significant step up would be aus-10, or Swedish stainless like AEB-L or 13c26 if a proper knife with one of these exists.
> 
> Most importantly though, as GS pointed out, is to do the hand sharpening. and if you have the skills to cut consistent paper-thin slices of ham, then you also have all the skill you need to hand sharpen.
> 
> Rick


Can you please send me a direct link to the Tojihuro and the Jero. And yes after all your encouragement I will give a go at hand sharpening.

I have Zwilling & Henckels top brand jamonero knife I paid 5 years ago 100€ perhaps to give an idea of quality because the firm does not give much information about any thing else and I am just beginning to learn, I am not a professional ham slicer. I slice about 2-3 Acorn fed Pure Ibérico hams a year. Muchas gracias.


----------



## slicespanishham

Galley Swiller said:


> SliceSpanishHam, Welcome to ChefTalk!
> 
> First, I must say that I do not like electric knife sharpeners.
> 
> When you use an electric knife sharpener, you are putting the edge of your knife against a very rapidly spinning abrasive wheel. That abrasive wheel generates heat at the edge of the knife. Since the edge of a knife needs to be very thin, the heat developed is concentrated in the steel at the edge. In fact, so much heat is localized at the edge that the amount of heat can (and often does)) re-temper the steel carbides and crystals of the steel, and in doing so, destroys the proper tempering of the edge. The result is a knife edge which is made much more fragile and will not hold its sharpness for long.
> 
> Much better is for you to learn to use proper knife sharpening with "water stones", which are artificial stones with a water-soluable binder. You will need at least 3 stones: a coarse stone for edge repairs with a grit of about 500 or so, a general medium stone for maintenance with a grit of about 800 to 1200 and a fine stone for polishing your edges of about 3000 to 5000 (though with Spanish, French and German stainless steel knives, that polish probably won't last very long). The stones should be a minimum of 200 mm long and 50 mm wide, though longer and wider is better. And one very important note: *NEVER USE OIL WITH A WATER STONE. Water ONLY!!*
> 
> Water stones are first soaked in water for about 15 to 20 minutes (though there are some high quality stones that are "splash and go" that do not need soaking, but simply an immediate application of water). The stones are then laid out and the knife edge is then lightly run at the proper angle along the stone in a "swoosh" which allows the entire length of the edge to have contact with the stone. Do this until you raise a bead. Then turn over and do it on the other side of the blade. When you have raised a bead along each side of the edge on your coarsest grit, then repeat with your next higher grit. For maintenance, you can begin a session with a higher grit. In between grits, you can run the edge of your Spanish, French and German knives through a small piece of cork to take off the bead.
> 
> For a very good tutorial, see Chad Ward here: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/ (Please be advised that eGullet is currently down for Internet maintenance).
> 
> For excellent videos, watch Jon Broida here: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports
> 
> I would also suggest you might want to try a good Japanese knife. A good type of knife might be a "sujihiki", which is the Japanese version of a carving knife. I do suggest that you do not get a "Damascus" blade, since those are more expensive than necessary and are subject to being scratched up and looking awful very quickly. I also suggest you stay away from and do not buy a VG-10 core steel knife, since those are more difficult to properly sharpen (the bead must be properly abraded on a VG-10 core steel knife, or the bead will break off and you end up needing to re-sharpen immediately - a major source of frustration).
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Galley Swiller


What do you think of rods made out of sharpening stones of different grades, just for their own purpose. Please look at the end of this page http://www.apedradasmeigas.com/inicio/que-es-pedra-das-meigas/ he also has got http://www.apedradasmeigas.com/galer/nuestros-productos-2-piedra-de-afilar/ I also find interesting the sharpeners recommend in the egullet forum. I have to do much more reading before I decide. Thank you very much


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## galley swiller

First, I must confess that I do not read Spanish, and I am thus relying on Google's translation service.

If I understand the first link, the Gentleman (Eduardo Beltra) is using naturally found whetstones.  He is shaping them and using an internal steel rod to reinforce the natural stone, so that these stones act much as a hand-held honing rod would be held and applied.

The second link is a series of different sets of conventional styled whetstones, which are laid flat on a table top or other support and the edge of the knife is run across the stone, in the fashion as described by Mr. Ward and demonstrated in the videos by Mr. Broida.

Of the two methods, I would probably personally prefer the conventional whetstones.  This is a known procedure, which allows for a practiced user to keep a moderately accurate bevel level along the entire length of the edge.  The first link seems to imply that the user is holding both reinforced whetstone and knife in hand.  I suspect there may be a significant problem with maintaining a consistent bevel angle along the entire length of the edge.  Certainly, holding both whetstone and knife both in the air can be done.  Master Bladesmith Murray Carter (who was traditionally trained in Japan as a bladesmith) can do so and has - but he has made thousands of knives by hand and his personal experience is certainly much more than I can aspire to.

Of the stones, I cannot say how they would compare to Japanese water stones.  This is the dilemma between artificial stones, which are consistently uniform throughout and can be manufactured to have specific grit sizes and known release levels (so that fresh abrasives can be exposed consistently).  Natural whetstones can have a degree of consistency, but the consistency can vary from stone to stone.  

I hope I am getting the nuances right on this.

Galley Swiller


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## rick alan

Tojiharu: http://korin.com/Togiharu-PRO-Salmon-Slicer?sc=27&category=8550043

I think the Jero is too soft, but the link: http://www.jeroportugal.pt/produtos.php?lang=en&page=home&id=19

As far as stones go I am not sure what the availability of stones in Europe is in general. But Niniwa Pro/Chosera stones are excellent and readily available. King stones are much less expensive and also readily available.

Benuser knows these stones very well and perhaps he will chime in. I personally like a very refined edge so would go with the Chosera 400, 2000, and Snow White (8000), though some feel that crazy high. You might just want to start off with a King 1000 and 6000, or even a 1000 and 4000.

Anyway a source: http://www.knivesandstones.com/sharpening-stones/.

Rick


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## rick alan

OK so for someone who needed to save time and finish with the crazy high 8K that would I guess mean 400-800-3k-8k.

The reason for going so high is that I have found that for very thin slicing, especially when using stainless that is under 60RC hardness, you really need to finish with the higher grits for best results.  I have not tried thin slicing of ham such as Jamon, but I know the need for a highly refined edge to be true for charcuterie like salami.

Rick


----------



## rick alan

Yes, that is how a use the finer stone. I am still using some soft (<60RC) stainless and for that I have a vintage translucent Arkansas stone which is actually leaves a finish finer than an 8K waterstone.  It is only good for softer steels though, and very inferior compared to waterstones in terms of speed.  But coming off of a 6K stone (which I do all deburring on) the Ark is fast enough to finish the relatively soft metal, and produces a significantly keener edge.  I do find that the harder stainless steels and carbon don't really benefit much from anything over 6K.  But, on the other hand, soft stainless takes a relatively rough edge at 6K, even when finishing with light stropping strokes.  I also find that a more refined edge last longer (though it is useless for slicing crusty bread, including a toasted croissant).

I find soft stainless can take a decent edge and hold it well so long as there is no board contact.  This is somewhat the application that SliceSpanishHam is working at,  Very thin slicing, and the only part of his ham/salmon slicer that is making real contact with a hard surface is the rounded tip.  He possibly could benefit from the high grit stone for thin slicing.

Rick


----------



## Iceman

This is what I use for slicing hams such as _Jamón_ or _Prosciutto_:





  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Dec 14, 2015








Slice consistency and no waste being key in professional settings.


----------



## rick alan

Wow, it even has a rounded blade.


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## rick alan

Some points I missed.  You mentioned a Henckels jamonero.  All German makers use a low grade stainless referred to as 4116 or X50CrMo15.  AUS8 is better steel, but ideally you want an HT of around 59RC.

But your Henckels can get reasonably sharp with a little care on the stones, especially if you thin it behind the edge.  Among other things, thinner edge=smaller bevel=easier to sharpen.

Rick


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## happyhound

Problem Solved!

http://www.worksharptools.com/sharp...n-onion-edition-knife-and-tool-sharpener.html

Nice unit. I have one and love it. 16 to 30 degrees adjustable. Variable speed so as not to heat your blades. I took an old butter knife and in about 6 minutes had turned it into a near razor. Awsome machine!


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## rick alan

I wouldn't go the belt sander route for sharpening, especially not this one.  It was probably a belt sander that did the knives mentioned above so unsatisfactorily.  There are very good reasons why people use bench stones costing double or more.  I'll leave it at that.

Rick


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## abefroman

I got a Chef's Choice 1520 a couple years ago, well worth the money.


----------



## Iceman

This is the one I have: 




  








Image




__
Iceman


__
Dec 14, 2015







_"Chef's Choice" - 200-3 Hybrid_ ... I got it on sale @ _Target_. NO problemmos.


----------



## rick alan

guys this is after all a very old post and so, quite predictably it should be added, we have already heard everything there is to hear about the cc and it's various incarnations.  Thanks so much for your efforts never the less.

Rick


----------



## Iceman

Could we then also say that some of us are tired of hearing from non-professionals that apparently have endless hours of free time that affords them the ability to sharpen using numerous multiples of stones up to the heights of 8K+ grits? I'm also kinda tired of hearing suggestions to "Home Cooks" of knives north of $300 that in no way will they ever use them enough to appreciate the cost. If we get real serious brass-tacks here ... does any "Home Cook" really need more than any given +/- $50 stainless chef's knife and and decent CC electric sharpener? They could sharpen it up every weekend and not use it up for over 5-years. A $300+ knife, and all the myriad of different assorted Japanese styles make absolutely NO difference whatsoever how well the average "Home Cook" puts out a meal. Expensive knives, and the hours spent sharpening them does not equate the value of good cooking skills.

_Working in a kitchen making a good meal is not rocket surgery._


----------



## rick alan

IceMan said:


> ... does any "Home Cook" really need more than any given +/- $50 stainless chef's knife and and decent CC electric sharpener?
> 
> _Working in a kitchen making a good meal is not plastic surgery._


Funny you should ask, this home cook does.

Funny you should mention Plastic Surgery. I guess sometimes working in a kitchen is like plastic surgery, and now wouldn't you prefer a $1500 diamond scaple to an exacto blade to give someone's face a new attitude? Not that you couldn't do a bang-up job with an exacto, of course.

I get your point though, I suppose we could have a separate forum for <$50 stainless knives and electric sharpeners.

Rick


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## millionsknives

I don't think I've been average for a long time


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## Iceman

Hey look ... we all have opinions. It's as simple as that.

When you quote someone you should quote them correctly, or at least point out that you are modifying what they have said. Otherwise ... it somewhat makes you look like an idiot.


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## ordo

IceMan said:


> Hey look ... we all have opinions. It's as simple as that.
> 
> When you quote someone you should quote them correctly, or at least point out that you are modifying what they have said. Otherwise ... it somewhat makes you look like an idiot.


Yep. Changing the quote is not fine forum practice tho i can't see why Rick did it.

Anyway, i'm a pretender home cook and i will spend any money i want in my knives. Sometimes getting expensive stuff makes you improve your cooking radically. In fact, the worst cooks i know, being they home cooks or chefs, use cheap knives.


----------



## rick alan

Did I change the quote?  You know mind can do funny things, but Iceman, you little devil, are you sure you didn't do anything ex post facto?

Anyways my apologies for the apparent misquote.

Well OK I'll admit it outright, but I changed it only for the entertainment value.

Rick


----------



## brianshaw

MillionsKnives said:


> I don't think I've been average for a long time


I actually agree with iceman's sentiments. But, sure... you have a very good point: many of us home cooks aren't exactly average and we can afford to spend some coin on the hobby aspect of buying, collecting, and/or using knives we probably could cook without.

EDIT: including knives that may be used to slice Spanish Ham.


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## rick alan

I should add at this time that this old post was resurrected, to my understanding, not for discussing what average cooks do, or knife collectors, but for the purpose of discussing possible best knife hardware practices for converting a joint of Jamon into something delicately fine in terms of a visual, tactile and flavor-profile experience.  To that end I hope at least some of us have been some help here to SliceSpanishHam, who I'd actually like to meet when I go to Spain next year, or at least someone like him.

Rick


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## Iceman

Look ... I can certainly understand how many things said on a bulletin-board forum can, after time, get on someone's nerves. I'll never say that I'm not included with what I say. Just recently somewhere I said that I'm really easy to get sick and tired of very fast. I will say again however, that really good (professional) cooking skills with ordinary equipment trump ordinary (home) cooking skills with over-the-top expensive equipment. Now "hobbyist" "non-professional" "home cook" kinda people ... like I believe many of youse guys to be ... may be just fine spending all kinds of $$$ for knives, and sharpening them to your heart's content. It makes you happy. You may then also put out some top-notch dishes that are just fantastic. I'm sure that makes you happy too. It's all good. I'm happy for you. Realize though please that I can put out those same dishes with my


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## ordo

IceMan, you made me remember that saying:

_And they lived miserably, cause it was cheaper._


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## Iceman

_"... and the $$$ I saved on my knives, that worked so perfectly well because of my superior skills, allowed me more to spend on my golf clubs, plasma large-screen TV, my high-fidelity stereo ... and still eat restaurant quality meals."_

Frugal and economical don't by any means equate cheap.


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## slicespanishham

Galley Swiller said:


> SliceSpanishHam, Welcome to ChefTalk!
> 
> First, I must say that I do not like electric knife sharpeners.
> 
> When you use an electric knife sharpener, you are putting the edge of your knife against a very rapidly spinning abrasive wheel. That abrasive wheel generates heat at the edge of the knife. Since the edge of a knife needs to be very thin, the heat developed is concentrated in the steel at the edge. In fact, so much heat is localized at the edge that the amount of heat can (and often does)) re-temper the steel carbides and crystals of the steel, and in doing so, destroys the proper tempering of the edge. The result is a knife edge which is made much more fragile and will not hold its sharpness for long.
> 
> Much better is for you to learn to use proper knife sharpening with "water stones", which are artificial stones with a water-soluable binder. You will need at least 3 stones: a coarse stone for edge repairs with a grit of about 500 or so, a general medium stone for maintenance with a grit of about 800 to 1200 and a fine stone for polishing your edges of about 3000 to 5000 (though with Spanish, French and German stainless steel knives, that polish probably won't last very long). The stones should be a minimum of 200 mm long and 50 mm wide, though longer and wider is better. And one very important note: *NEVER USE OIL WITH A WATER STONE. Water ONLY!!*
> 
> Water stones are first soaked in water for about 15 to 20 minutes (though there are some high quality stones that are "splash and go" that do not need soaking, but simply an immediate application of water). The stones are then laid out and the knife edge is then lightly run at the proper angle along the stone in a "swoosh" which allows the entire length of the edge to have contact with the stone. Do this until you raise a bead. Then turn over and do it on the other side of the blade. When you have raised a bead along each side of the edge on your coarsest grit, then repeat with your next higher grit. For maintenance, you can begin a session with a higher grit. In between grits, you can run the edge of your Spanish, French and German knives through a small piece of cork to take off the bead.
> 
> For a very good tutorial, see Chad Ward here: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/ (Please be advised that eGullet is currently down for Internet maintenance).
> 
> For excellent videos, watch Jon Broida here: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports
> 
> I would also suggest you might want to try a good Japanese knife. A good type of knife might be a "sujihiki", which is the Japanese version of a carving knife. I do suggest that you do not get a "Damascus" blade, since those are more expensive than necessary and are subject to being scratched up and looking awful very quickly. I also suggest you stay away from and do not buy a VG-10 core steel knife, since those are more difficult to properly sharpen (the bead must be properly abraded on a VG-10 core steel knife, or the bead will break off and you end up needing to re-sharpen immediately - a major source of frustration).
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Galley Swiller


mmmm, this talk that began about an electric knife sharpening has become as sharp as passionate. I suppose every thing has been said know. I arrived to this post by chance, and it got me hooked for 2 days reading here and there about knives and sharpening. Passionate. Hand sharpening... seriously, something to put in my list for when I have got more time, it seems to be as much of an art as ham slicing itself. For the time been I have sharpen more than 20 knives on the Chef Choice1520, and all my slicing from vegetables to bone-in-ham has become a dangerous pleasure. I inherited a collection of 12 Victorinox kitchen knives, other ways I would not have some many knives. A dozen kitchen knives, including the ones for ham will be enough for me. Talking about knives for (bone in) ham slicing I strongly point out that only the knives made in Spain for the purpose can do the job as it should be done.

As some one suggested -and it was only 69€-, I though I could try and bought the Sabatier carbon steel ham knife, and it has been a waste, it is too hard, too wide, too short. Our knives for this purpose can cost from 18 to 100€, they have a soft long blade that is essential for the job. Sculpting and slicing that is how the knife is used.

If I had someone to teach me how to hand sharp knives, surely I will learn and do it instead of the electrical machine. Meanwhile I say the CC1520 its fine. By the way -Ice Man- blind folded I know the difference between knife sliced (100% Ibérico acorn feed) ham and the machine (same) cut ham, some techniques maintain or enhance the qualities of food, some machines alter them. But I agree with you in some of your comments.

Thanks to you all for your teachings.


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## slicespanishham

Answering Rick Alan. When you are visiting Spain, surely I would love to exchange your teachings on stone knife sharpening for teachings on slicing ham with the knife, that should be some joyful experience. I will put the jamón, the knives, the Afinox ham holder and the wine. You can bring the stones, yes? on my account.


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## couture cuisine

I have the Chef's Choice, but much prefer a trip to Michigan Saw and Cutting for a periodic sharpening. They really know what they are doing, and then I just use my steel for light maintenance. I have some Old Hickory carbon blades that are older than I am (and that is saying something!) and they are among my favorites. Right now the going price is $1.75 an inch.


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## pcrcrepaira

I honestly think that if you know how you are much better off sharpening your knives yourself. Electric sharpeners can be too abrasive and take off too much. If you can get a good quality butchers sharpening steel. Not the round ones but the oval type and make sure it is of the diamond variety. You might pay a wee bit more for that but I have found that the angles are good and if you give your knife a quick rub up before you use it and after you have finished it will out last you. I have had this present set for over 21 years and the are still good. I would still be using my original set if they hadn't been stolen. Below is a page with a couple of facts and myths about knives. Most you may already know but it may be worth a read. I hope this helps, All the best.


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## rick alan

Hey SSH, if your still in the market for one, this is a really nice ham slicer of your style, 30cm, actually made from razor steel and unbeatable price

http://www.boutique-opinel-musee.co...polymer-handle/carpaccio-knife-n223-intempora

It seems the French are upping their game now, several French makers now have offerings in Sandvik steels.


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