# How to create better wages for Cooks?



## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

A greate way to help this situation is for head chefs to only hire certified cooks in their kitchens. The more restaurants hires non-certified cooks, the more it undermine our industry and skills.

I am all for hiring apprentices, but that's it. Everyone else should be certified!


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## danbrown (Feb 19, 2004)

It seems you and I see everything from very different perspectives.

Rather than getting angry again, as seems to be my automatic response to every post you make, I decided to evaluate where you are from as a possible source of your statement.

In Canada, perhaps there isn't a glut of immigrants from Central America who are phenomenal cooks and will work much harder, with better attention to detail, and at a lower wage than an goofball kid who's been to "cooking camp", and earned his/her CC. Perhaps you're trying to take an Escoffier-like stance on improving working conditions, perhaps you don't care about profit.

As this most recent statement means you would never hire me (as a 24 year veteran without a CC, with the title Chef de Cuisine) or anyone like me, I think you're pushing out one of the best possible resources, but you can run your business as you choose.

DB


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Laprise,
certified by who?
pan


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

Hey Dan, don't worry, to each his own

I do think that when you hire a veteran, you hire experience and skills. Papers or not...A veteran runs on acquired rights!

BUT when you hire a young cook without papers, you do undermine culinary schools, and every cooks that come out with a 1, 2, 3, or 4 years diploma.

*Profit has nothing to do with Central American workers, it has to do with properly managing your work force and product.* :roll: 
In both USA and Canada, companies look to hire oversee's workers for cheap, sometime they move the production to India or China, and sometime they bring the labour in there own country to work the employees for cheap wages. Holland America does it with the Philippino workers on all their ships!

*YES,* it is your choice, but I choose to had positive to my trade and my country. If I do hire a non-certified cook, it is as an apprentice! SO that one day he can be certifed too!


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Still trying to figure out. certified by who?
a culinary degree, AFC,.. what would qualify as certified?
pan
Keeping in mind that in the US there are no certifications to get into the industry.


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

*A* certfication...

A culinary art diploma, a technical culinary art diploma, a cooking school diploma, certifcation from AFC, Red Seal, or any international certifications...

If the cook went to a culinary school, whether it is an unknown school, or whether it is the CIA or Cordon Bleu, it is extremely important to hire certified cooks.

Now, you do bring a good point, yes it would be nice to have one single certification for all... but not in my life time so until we do, a CULINARY ART DIPLOMA will do!


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## pastrytracy (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, I think that just because someone is certified or went to school does not mean that they can work in a restaurant kitchen. Sure, they may have the skills, but can they hold up under the pressure of a dinner rush? I did not go to culinary school, I'm a rookie, but I am super grateful that I was hired because I love my job and have discovered that with practice, I am going to be pretty good at what I do. I may not have all of the knowledge that can be acquired in a classroom setting, but I will and it will be practical because it was learned in a real life situation. I have been a manager in a food service establishment and have an Associates in Restaurant Management (doubt if I'll be a manager again though)...so I know a little about hiring and what I look for in an employee. I just think that passion and the desire for knowledge outweigh a certification sometimes.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

As someone with a European apprenticeship and over 20 years of experience in 4 and 5 star houses under my belt, I don't even bother looking at certifications on resumes, especially in Vancouver. It's no secret that I don't see eye to eye with "cooking schools", most of which are excuses to get young kids from distant lands into this country without paying the heavy tuition needed for University. I've had my share of students, and their hopes, dreams and fantasies.

Cooks want a better wage? Be a better cook. I'll sit up and scream for a cook who can pump out 100+ covers a night without a complaint and who can get along with co-workers, and can clean up after himself. What do you want, 18, 20, 22 $ an hour? I'll pay! And I don't care what country the guy/gal is from or even if they can speak passable English...


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Well, I guess I dissagree.
I don't believe that's legal. I would hate to discriminate against those who can't afford school. I also have some insight( just here locally) to the so- called chef schools. I personally know 2, that the two years spent would be better off in the field, not to mention the money.
Anyway, I just can't help thinking this post is meant to insight. I'm not going to fall for it. I personally don't know of any Chef who would be on board with this. 
So to all those self starters in the field without some type of paper, lets wait for additional posts before going off.
Pastrytracy, don't let anything calm your passion. I'm right there with you.
I have enough paper in my portfolio to start a small fire. Does'nt make me better than anyone else.Or qualified to hire.
NOTE: Let me also say, that I'm NOT opposed to any type of education. 
My head is still spinning on how a cook without. as you say, some sort of papers, undermines culinay schools. You don't think Culinary Schools are not profit driven? What percentage, buy their papers vs earn their papers. What percentage of instructors have gone from school to teaching without being in the field.
Crap, I fell for it.  You would be right at home in the US with the current team.
I'm typing this like Lewis Black is spouting it.:lol:


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## bijoink (Sep 14, 2005)

Laprise you mean like ServSafe or what? What about people who are not but are willing to work and actually work hard to make you successful. What about guys like me, who cant afford culinary school at this point or probably wont for a long time? Im not angry im just putting some 2 cents in a thought of mind.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

I'm also not going to fall for what i believe is the true meaning behind this thread. I will however say that I spent 25 years in some extremely demanding kitchens. I now teach at a culinary school. I would never had taken this job if I had not been in the trenches for so long. I would have no right what so ever to "teach".In the 6 years I've been on this forum I have used the word passion a million times, passion, combined with solid training (school or not) is the key. I have worked with some outstanding culinarians who do not have "papers" I have worked with graduates of culinary school who are shoe makers.There are great cooks and fair cooks, and there are great teachers and fair teachers.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

I would gladly have a plumber with 5 years of experience work on my house rather than one that just finished a course, piece of paper in hand.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Ditto for the surgeon who did my Dad's cataracts last sumer....


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I thought the question here was about raising wages for cooks. We tip share equally with the front and back of the house. Have been for the last 9 years. Almost doubles their hourly wages.
If we do whats right, all of a sudden the semantical bs is seen for what it is. Semantical bs.

All the best. All the time.

Peachcreek.
Proud as h8ll of my 12th grade education....


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

Ok,

I am NOT saying that a cook with paper is better!
I am saying everytime you hire someone without papers, you are part of the problem at the base of this question which is; wage will never go up if anyone can do the job. If only professional certified chef can do the jobs, than the salary will increase with time a long time...

Yes, if the cook works harder he can get more money, of course!:bounce:

Please try to compare apple and apple! A carpenter with 5 years experience and no school, cannot be compared to a carpenter with papers just out of school!

The culinary trade is held back by profit, that is the real reason isn't it? You are now a head chef somewhere, so who cares about paper or not, you have to hit your labor cost target to keep your job! :smiles: SO, you hire people from Central America to save money and you managed to pursuade yourself that it's better! good fo you... that thinking is not far from child labor!

They don't ask an accountant and a lawyer if a diploma is needed to practice, they tell an accountant and lawyer you need a diploma to pratictice. Yes, I am sure someone off the street could do their job, and well too, but when IRS is knocking on your door, who are going to call? well it does not matter, bacause only the certified accountant and certified lawyer can actually sign the papers!:smiles:

It's not about the actual dipoma people, it's about the fact that if you can only hire certified people, corporation will adjust as such and have to pay more, it become a TRADE that his recognized on a higher level.


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## logghib (May 4, 2005)

Maybe Chicago is different from other parts of the world, but I get down right skeptical about people with culinary degrees. I always expect them to not show up or lop off a finger.

Besides, it's not like the Mexicans don't get seriously paid. They may not be able to hold a conversation with the GM, but they definitely know how to ask for a raise. The lowest paid people I've seen are kids with maybe a few months of pub food experience and a diploma, driving to work (late) in the SUV their parents bought for them. The Columbian grill guy who can temp a filet from a quarter mile isn't stupid when it comes to how much hourly wage he deserves. And he actually appreciates his job.

I find the idea of cooking being a career you need a formal education for as being sort of frightening. Kitchens are a place where people who can't afford to go to school can still go in and work their way up. One of the few trades where your pay and position is dictated by your own motivation, and not weird politics. (Although I guess kitchens carry their own deranged political systems.) 

And yes, I feel better about a talented, hard-working guy being able to tend to his family (usually extending to relatives in his/her nation of origin) and making a good career than I do a talented, narcissistic culinary graduate working to open up some dodgy Asian fusion concept with the remnants of a trust fund.


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

I agree logghib, 

maybe the culinary trade should stay the way thing are right now! I do like the idea to have open doors for un-certified cooks, but unfortunately, it does not help our trade 

I do have issues with workers being abused by corporations just because they come from somewhere else in the world. 

Holland America is notorious for that... a CDP from Canada makes $2700.USD a month and for the same position a Philippino CDP makes $400.USD a month on the same ship... just because that $400 is worth more in the Philippine
 I have seen this myself!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Laprise, I've got a few holes to poke in your posts. Yes, the food biz is run by profit, what business isn't? That said, a Sizzler franchise can make a profit and it doesn't need qualified cooks, neither does a Denny's franchise or the Mom & Pop sandwich place in the light industrial areas. A "certified" cook wouldn't be happy in those places, but they exist and make a profit. Me, my first job was as a pimply 16 yr old washing dishes in a "Country Kitchen" franchise, and it didn't have any qualified cooks either, but I learned alot. Higher pay means higher menu prices, some places can swing it and still function and make a profit, others can't and have to rely on convienience foods and nation wide advertising. Start splitting tips with the wait staff and you'll have a riot on your hands and the Labour board seizing your accounts. Up the prices for the same quality food, same service and ambiance and you won't have any customers. 

Now about certification, it's a dream. A good dream, but we dream to cope with reality and reality gives us incentive to dream. N. America is still cowboy style wild west when it comes to certification for our trade. It isn't recognized, period. Cooking is the second oldest trade in the world, and many European nations have Gov't recognized apprenticeship programs for it, for baking, for meat cutting, etc. Me, I did a 3 yr apprenticship program in Switzerland, same program as every other Gov't recognized cook in Switz., because there's only ONE, and it's the same program format for almost 40 years. Every one who graduates is on the same playing field, "Carrotes Vichy " are sliced, sweated in butter and shallots, and moistened with mineral water. The cook from Ticino, from Luzern, or from Geneva will have learned the same thing, albeit in French, German, or Italian, but it's the same dish, brain washed into us, along with the 14 methods of cooking.
We don't have that luxury here. Cooking school "X" pumps out "Chefs" every four months, and not even with "Foodsafe" certs either, "Y" does a decent job, but offers a multitude of courses, some 2 year, some 6 mth, some 2 weeks. Apprenticeships? Here in Canada we have 10 provinces and each one has different guidelines and demands. The apprentice from Sask. will not have studied the same curriculum as the Apprentice from Ont.. We've got CC's like SAIT, VCC, private cooking schools, post secondary cooking schools, you name it, there are countless courses out there, and each one with a "Certification" for Chef, food artist, whatever. It's Forrest Gump's box of chocolates for us employers, you never know what you'll get.

Gov't recognition and a encompassing, do-not-deviate-from-the-curriculum program for a certified cook? Won't happen. Not for a while anyway, and it doesn't matter if the entire nation is glued to the "Food network" and loves Emeril. No one to push for it except us whiners, and we're smart enough to stay out of politics. Professional bodies? I was (emphasis on was) a member of the BC chapter of the Chef's Assoc., 4 meetings I went to, and the only things covered were golf, golf tournies, and new members introductions who just happened to be sales reps. for large food distributors. Needs money and power to get a Gov't recognition for our trade, and a certain amount of politicking. 

So we do what we do. Strive for better food, for better ingredients, for public education on food. We've come along way from 20 years ago when butter would kill you and you could live to be 100 if you sat on a mountain top spreading margerine on your bread, when chocolate was light brown, contained milk powder, and was very sweet, when the ony wine available was "Moody Blue" or Lonesome Charlie" or even that import stuff like "Schloss Laderheim"... 

We'll pay for good cooks, and if the market bears our prices, we might even make a profit.


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## cape chef (Jul 31, 2000)

:roll: :bounce: :smoking: 

Beautiful!


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## danbrown (Feb 19, 2004)

They don't need my help, their graduates speak for the system with high expectations of wage and lousy knife skills.

And again I'll re-state my point, and lay it out in other terms. When you grow up cooking, and your working to feed your family (not pay off student loans) you tend to work from a different motivational core. It's a core that rings very true to me. It's one that I understand.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Lapster,
Is an OK concept, just the wrong place to start it. I've always thought we should be working towards a certified profession. Just not going to happen.
It needs to start at the top with SOPS. The groups out there representing us are basically groups/clubs. Heck, my local health department can't agree on the interpretation of FDA guidelines.
Your job as an employer is to see that anyone willing to work, that has a passion for this type of work, gets a well rounded education and a career from you. Not pidgeoned holed into one specific job. I feel that is one of the down sides of certification. I've seen it in all fields. Certification leads to specialists. The last thing this industry needs is a Sautee Specialist or Muffin Specialist. I'm all for specializing, but after an all around success. 
I left the buzz because I felt I was just filling holes when it came to hiring. Bottom line was dictating that I couldn't cross train and teach.
Now I sleep well at night knowing that anyone who works with us can leave at anytime and get employment, and will be successful.
This field is large, almost a race. enacting hiring practicies like that is almost racist.
Certification is one of the reasons my son will never enter this business. Family business is going away quickly, there are so many soaking the industry, including some schools.
We can't or won't even carry out the laws we have now. There was a large bridal show here in town, one of our workers said there was 32 wedding cake vendors. We only have 16 licensed here. The others are working illegal out of their homes.This takes a huge chunck of our business. I've had to redirect our business 2 or 3 times over the last couple of years. I'd love to see certification. Not gonna happen.
pan


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## chef_bob (Jan 13, 2005)

Panini

I think you raise a good point about law enforcement. One of the issues as I see it (keeping in mind I am in Ontario and I know that the laws differ from province to province and country to country) is that there are very few laws governing our industry. 

Here is an example. If I want to go out and get my hair cut. The person cutting my hair must have formal training, have gone through an apprenticeship and be licenced by the governement. BUT I can go have lunch some place that has not one person on staff who has even taken a food safety course let a lone any formal training.

In my opinion this does little to help the credibility of our industry.

There are two sides to every coin. Yes having only trained cooks would cost more money, no doubt. It would probabally eliminate some of the very cheap restaurants in all of our market places (both corporate and indipendant). But as professionals would it increase the caliber of food being put out. In the long run I beleive yes. I also beleive it would reduce the odds of major food safety issues (Jack in the box, Chi-chi's etc.). In the long run would it result in cooks being paid more, yes I think it would.

Will it ever happen? I am not betting my milk money on it.

In Canada the profession of cook is considered a trade and I have no problem with it being regulated as other trades are. As for the example of doctor that was used by some, give me a break. Are you telling me that you would let some one who has never been to medical school and is not licenced by the governement come at you with a knife, or a lazer? Thinks about that.... really would you!?!?! I sure as heck wouldn't.

Just one guys opinion.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

"A greate way to help this situation is for head chefs to only hire certified cooks in their kitchens."
I am curious as to how this would generate better wages?


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

Not that I agree with the idea, I'm just answering cheflayne's question from an economic point of view:

Suppose only "certified" cooks could be hired in restaurants. You would immediately reduce the supply of cooks, (since all cooks non-certified would be eliminated from the work force). At the same time, enacting such a practice would increase the demand for certified cooks, (since eateries that used to hire uncertified cooks now must only hire certified ones).

Like any commodity, if the supply goes down or the demand goes up, the price goes up. In this scenario both supply would drop and demand would rise, thus causing an increase in the cost of labor, i.e. salary.

These are just the cold facts. Not my sentiment.

Mark


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## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

Related to MarkV's comments, the price of the food served would go up. This would probably reduce demand. So the income to the restaurant might stay about the same meaning the profit margin is reduced. Or the income might drop and the restaurant goes out of business. It is not likely that income would go up.

Phil


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

Well, 
I think everyone agree, this is a *hot button* for many people. Profit does run the world, and restaurants are no diferent:crazy:

This will most likely never happen because we are finding out that it would be EXTREMALY COMPLEX to make such a change in our industry.

I don't believe that cook should enter this business for the money, but more for the love of food, the adrenaline ruches, and chance to be in a creative environment with other crazy cooks:lol:

MarkV is right, the offer and the demand does help increase salary in general. We often see it in area where no one wants to go cook.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I find the people who complain the loudest are the ones that get paid what they are worth.:lol: 
THATS why they are so unhappy.....


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Mark, morally this could never happen. All current workers would be grandfathered in. Then the bill for all this training will be put back on the company/owner.
Small business would vanish(would make georgie very happy). Food service would have to monopolize. OMG what a mess. The end result would be outrageous prices for food, and a medeocre product at best.
Also remember, to all those cooks out there, I would not be surprised if there would be any fast-tracking in the industry.
pan


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## mikeb (Jun 29, 2004)

This is a topic that always upsets me. I am 21 years old, uncertified, no post-secondary education of any kind (ie. no culinary school), and I've been a chef de partie in several well-known award winning restaurants (after a short apprenticeship). I've trained and been responsible for more culinary school grads than I care to count. Yet because I am uncertified, I don't deserve to be where I am? (of course my current employer feels I'm a valuable asset) 

Or how about the certification process itself? I'm in the process of getting certified, but so far my efforts have been bogged down by bureaucratic nonsense. They won't even let me write the tests! Why, because I didn't go to school. 

As for hiring only 'certified' cooks, this will never happen. Chefs know there is some serious talent out there, and will do what is best for their business. Not to mention that employers pay for your current work, not for your past education. 

Anyhow, rant /off, needed to vent some frustrations.


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## epicous (Aug 12, 2004)

Can you please give us a link where we can observe the requisitions for certifying?
Is there an international certification? 
Can you recommend books with all topics that cooks must know?


Thanks.


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## markv (May 16, 2003)

I concur. There would be immense obstacles to switching the food industry to the kind of hiring guidelines Laprise suggests.

_But holding all other factors constant_, curtailing the labor pool would allow supply and demand to exert their effects on salary.

If I were a restaurant owner I wouldn't want to be constrained by such hiring regulations. There's an immense amount of talent out there that never stepped foot in a classroom.

Mark


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## pete (Oct 7, 2001)

I am glad that this thread is 3 pages long. My first reaction to this post was to really go off, but now that I have read all the posts, I have calmed myself a bit.

While I think that "certification", whatever that means, can be a good thing, I don't think it could, or should, be the end all, be all that Laprise as suggested. There are a couple of reasons for this:

#1. I don't think that limiting the work force would do this industry much good. As pointed out, there are many great cooks out there that have had no formal education or training. Some of the best cooks I have ever worked with are latinos. They initially took up cooking because it was better than working in a factory, but they have turned into awesome cooks. Plus many of them (not all of them, in my experience, so please don't flame me for making a general statement) are very happy just cooking. They don't want the responsibility of running a kitchen. If I pay them well, and earn thier loyalty I don't have to worry about losing them to other kitchens as they move thier career upwards. So not only do I benefit from having great skilled labor that is loyal to me, I also can take the time to train other young kids who will use me as just one stop in their career path, and not worry about leaving myself without a good kitchen staff. I have the best of both worlds and everyone benefits.

#2. From a financial standpoint I don't think this industry could handle moving to all certified cooks. As stated earlier diners, mom & pop places, or small, independent places could not afford such a move. They would be put out of business. Eating out is a luxury, not a neccessity. Start pricing yourself too high and the public will react by not going out as often. There is a threshold where the public will say "no more". So yes, these places rely on cheaper help, whether it is foreign help or local. This industry all ready has crappy profit margins, a change such as this would bankrupt countless more restaurants and in the long run all you would have are chain restaurants because they would be the only ones who could afford to stay in business.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, if you look at Europe, unqualified cooks still are around and desparately needed. When I was working at the Baur au Lac, a 5 star place in Zürich, the staff cook was an uncertified cook, and a lot of Mom & Pop places don't have certified (apprenticed) cooks either, or maybe just one certified cook with several uncertified helpers. Price of food is astronomical, and almost every place is forced to use some processed products because of the high labour cost. There are some excellent products out there. One rest. chain, Mövenpick, has a central plant that produces high-quality ice cream, smoked salmon, coffee, soups and sauces, baked goods, etc. and farms this out to their many (over 200) branches. Mc D's does exist in many European countries, albeit with astronomical prices.

I dunno, if you want to start certifying, I'd start with the business owner first. The failure rate of food businesses here in N.A. is far higher than in Europe. All you need here is money and a dream, and I think everyone has stories about so-and-so who sold his accounting biz to start up a nice little steak and pasta place... In many parts of Europe you need a restauranteurs license to open up and get a business license, and this demands a one year course. If this would be implemented here in N.A. it would be a start, and fairly quicky (well, relatively) to set up, say within 10 years? I'm sure the health dept's and other various gov't bodies (labour board, worker's comp, tax guys) wouldn't complain. If we could get this kind of stability, things might go better in tems of salary and eduction for not only cooks but all foodservice employees.


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

To my knowledge, there is not JUST ONE international certification, but more like Canada and USA, many diferent ones. 

All the qualified people on this TREAD from all sides of the business have made good constructive positive points. There is a need for it... I do think that this is one way to improve a situation, COMMUNICATION:roll: BRAVO and keep talking...


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## chefjosh (Jul 28, 2003)

If you really want to bring the wages for cooks up. Open a restaurant, pay your "certified only" cooks twice what everyone else does, and make lots of money. Become so successful that people copy you. I'm not making light of your idea, the fact is the only way to change an industry is from the inside out the. 

I personally believe that the industries labor practices are flawed in many ways. Pay is often not equal to skill and ability. Cooks are often pushed to extremes working 80+ hrs, or the opposite, made to work six or seven days a week just to get close to 40 hrs. Often job descriptions are vague but **** hath no furry like a chef scorned. Even in good paying places the competition creates a self destructive moral where cooks sabotage others to keep there jobs safe. 

After 15 years in food-service in every kitchen position and all types of establishments. I firmly believe that the reason the industry has such a high failure rate is bad management. 

It can be done differently and people that are willing to do things differently will lead the way. When you take care of your staff they will bring in the profits. Its amazing how hard people will work when they are a vital part of success.

When I'm hiring I pay more attention to attitude, confidence, and excitement about learning than previous experience in food, certification, or the language they speak. I can teach anyone that wants to learn, how to cook, but I can't teach a cook not to be an a-hole.

OK Ill Step Off My Soap Box.
Good Luck all
Ill see you in the trenches, I'm the bald one singing "A World of My Own"


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

well said chef.
It is absolutely up to us!!
Our group is small. We have 18yr vets. We don't post schedules. The work is done. Pay is not an issue! Noone is there for the money.
EVERYONE with more then a year in (all of us) have a piece of the action. We have built the business for acquisition(but I'm sure the employees will buy it) if not they have a payday coming along with the owner. If the business is sucessful so are they.
We put too much into business. Sometimes you have to take it back to two cigar boxes. in and out. What's left is profit.
Chefjosh, I'm right there with ya. When we are hiring we will give the applicant a kitchen test. If decorating a cake. We'll supply them apron,basecake and let them have at it. I could care less what the cake looks like. I'm watching, nerves, temper, if they will seek out tools, if they ask others for help or guidence. How fast they acclimate and things of this nature. It's my job to teach them skills, I can't however teach personality.
Gosh, this sounds like a con.  any employee can be reached for comment at the shop, be my guest.
pan
sorry edit. I dissagree that cooks or anyone should not go into cooking for money. Bottom line is, a job is how we support and have a life away from work.


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## plongeur (Aug 1, 2005)

Here in France, you don't need 'Certificatiion' - a formal qualification - to open a restaurant, but it helps. If you do have a qualification then you're entitled to take on stagiaires and apprentices paid for by the government, so that makes it attractive to lots of people.
There are several people running 'Chambres d'Hote' - B&Bs - in my cookery classes. They're doing it because there are plans to make it compulsory for anyone who works in kitchens serving food to the paying public to have some sort of basic knowledge of health and safety, which we get in our lessons. Not everyone will be forced to do a one-year course - it'll be available as a two-week or similar program, day a week sort of thing as well, but they're getting in ahead of the rush.


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## nentony (May 7, 2005)

I've been waiting to see if anyone would bring it up, and I can't believe I'm gonna. What about collective bargaining, unions. I'd rather eat microwaved turkey on Thanksgiving than belong to one myself, but in a discussion on raising wages, certification, apprenticeship, regulating and what all, I'm suprised. I guess most cooks are too independant.

Tony


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## robinchev (Jan 13, 2006)

I agree. Obviously this is a touchy subject for a lot of people...in general, I think that if you believe that only certified people should be hired, then you should only hire certified people. If your system is better, eventually it will catch on.
"I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to hold it."


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

http://channels.netscape.com/careers...-tos-feat-h-01

Hehehe.:smoking:


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## jolly roger (Jan 27, 2006)

There are two major worms in our hiring process when it comes to looking for cooks: 1.) Illeagals that trade social security numbers when one comes into the U.S. and one leaves and will work for peanuts because they have a secondary job and don't mind working 80 hours a week for the next six months because that's about five years of wages where they come from. A side point, most of the time they come to our country with no knowledge of safe food handling, knowledge of international cooking styles, and a disregard for cleanliness. Don't hire these guys. That's about seventy percent of our collective problem. As a chef, I won't hire anyone unless I know they are, at the very least, ServeSafe certified. Haven't got that certification yet? Then I don't even want you changing urinal cakes in the men's bathroom! 2.) Anyone who walks in the door and talks the talk, but can't walk the walk. When I interview potential cooks, sous chefs, pastry chefs, I ask a litaney of questions that they should know. I will know what someone's skill set is in a matter of ten minutes. It's not rocket science if you are in the seat of deciding. Bottom line is: Illeagals, even if they are good, won't stick around and may get you in a **** load of trouble and hacks that don't know their *** from their elbow will just make more work for other established cooks, and the mentally lazy chef that hired them.


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## freddychef (Dec 19, 2001)

There seems to be a few overlapping concerns in this thread. I'll stick to `getting cooks/chefs higher wages`. I've been in this business for about 15 years now, coming at it from neccessity but finding my passion. As a daydreaming dish doggie I quickly learned that the passion would counter the fact that my monetary situation was in, and would be, dire straits for some time.

I to came into cooking with no training but homecookin`. I did though receive institutional training tp support my self-directedness as I grew as a cook. But back to wages.

I live in a part of Canada that historically and in the present has the lowest minimum wage across the board including the Hospitality and Tourism sector of the economy. The way in which I increase MY wages is to leave every year for the mainland to work seasonal. A six month tourism season versus two--simple math. The actual wages that I earn are based on economy of scale, requirement of industry and negotiation so that accomodations and food are often included. The actual wage made is probabaly 40 to 50% higher than what you earn on paper as my costs of living are covered.

Now that is just one case of a variegated industry. The seasonality of employment affords higher wages for a part of the year....but when I get home....since the minimum wage is so low here,and no real season , looking for employment is non-consequential upon return.The migratory process is the avenue. Having said that however, what of the low wages here or there, or anywhere.? It would seem that in my opinion and experience wages are tied to economy of scale. I have found a short term venue to improve my own sitaution. BUT HERE?

Another story. Wages are not improving like in other sectors of the economy. Chefs/cooks and any and all workers in Hospitality and Tourism are for the most part the lowest paid sector of the Canadian economy. Why is this? I would quickly argue the lack of bargaining units with companies is the main reason, but also the lack of forsight on the part of management to see the benefits of a stable staff.

It would seem that whether it is seasonal, or a full time gig in a restaurant or hotel, or what have you the low wages are often desribed as `what the market can bear`--in my exp, this is simply what management can bear--in other words wages are kept low as to not pull from profits..a common endeavour. In many cases this practice often means a high transient cooking population, the usage of unskilled labor, constant training (increasing costs)labor and food) really over time) and inferior products and conduct in many kitchens. 

Earlier posts mentioned that certificaion is a way in which wages( and benefits) somehow could be addresses and increased. Moreover in doing so stability in the industry could be enabled. Recently this question was posited at the CCFCC web site as an industry driven survey. Ironically the idea of a steady, happy cooking population was suggested by management once more. The idea that collective bargaining to enforce industry standards for workers is not implied as an avenue to persue. Ergo, the idea of higher wages seems to be of no concern!!!

The point . as I do digress, and apologize, is that increased wages are not 
seen as a way to have better cooks??!!

After all of these years and witnessing many situations where good cooking takes a back seat because the cooks (and related staff) are unhappy....I have taken it upon myself to ask many `what is wrong`--and the reply nine chances out of ten is ` a lack of pay for my work, no benefits, no stability, no career path.....and of course movin on...again and again....

So I end by thinking that while a universal system of standards coud be a culinary holy grail, it will probably never happen. I do believe that (in my exp) companies, large and small who pay decent wages are benefitting in the long run by having a happier, stable staff. 

So I conclude by thinking that the onus for obtaining higher wages, secure positions, is up to each cook, each manager....each location.....freddychef


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

Nicely said "Freddychef"

I do agree that it is up to the cooks to negotiate themselves better wages on an individual basis... 

I also agree that wages should be according to skills, and skills have not necessarely anything to do with a diploma but more what happen after school! The good thing, is that you can still get a cooking diploma from a trade school for free, which help the youngs that can't afford CIA or French Culinary Institute... and the final result is sometime as good....

With that said, I would like to see the industry in general to be a bit more structure around certifications instead of profits. I do understand that you need profits to pay better wages, but most of the time the extra money goes aywhere but to the cooks... 

I don't have to worry about that anymore myself, but I am still cooking for a living and I would like to help if I could by improving the present situation for future cooks... Maybe I should run for a politic seat 

Anyway, great comments all around...


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Jolly Roger,
I'm sure you know a good majority of aliens have work papers. There are very little true Americans here.
I am not pro illegal, but I certainly won't label them as dirty worms.
It is not the fault of the illegals that the government has decided to discriminate on who gets to be here or not. For years their parents were allowed to be here. Looking back, this is probably how we all got here. I am the son and grandson of a *** and very proud of it.
Thank God my co-workers found me before the encountered someone like you. I don't believe you got to the second worm and I'm not sure I want to know. Fact is, there are probably seniors members of your family receiving Social Security. You can thank the illegal worms for that. There would be no income for these people without them. These worms have mothers, fathers, families. 
They are human too. To label a whole race as having a disregard for cleanliness is hum?? can't think, oh maybe Archie Bunkerish? Actually Archie also had the gift to judge someone in ten minutes also. I only posted, for your last sentance twisted me a little.


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## jim berman (Oct 28, 1999)

Focus on certifications _INSTEAD _of profits? Of course they do... it's called the *Peace Corps*.

What business owner (paying for food, beverage, insurance, wages, utlities, and the myriad of other things) is NOT going to focus on profit? Acutally, I think there are people like that... I see them standing in front of the unemployment office... wearing their certification-embroided chef coat. You are an industry vet, how could you sell that notion to the industry?


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## evil-gal (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm living and working in Ireland. The situation over here is crazy. There's a huge difference between properties... Hotels pay low wages and expect long hours, and they are the ones who demand certification. Some restaurants pay huge money and will hire enthusiasm rather than certification, which is fine. Many though, hire anybody who can string three words of English, pay them crap wages and have no food quality coming out of the kitchen as a result. 

The biggest problem I see is that the chef's colleges are sending out less than a quarter of what they used to (young students are very disillusioned about long hours and Head chef's with tempers.) This means that there aren't many commis or c de p's being trained. Junior C de P wages have gone from €18-20k to €30k+ in 5 years, and that's what chef's are demanding. When they don't get it they leave the industry. 

This coincides with the Accession states being allowed to work here, and suddenly there's a huge influx of people, willing to work for half nothing. Some of them take to it like a duck to water, some only do it to pay the bills. There's a huge range of experiences for young chefs out there, and there's a much higher proportion of negative experiences than positive.


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## freddychef (Dec 19, 2001)

I often read many posts on various topics at well, various sites. I try not to get knee deep in tangents and diatribes, but just a point to those who wish to use such forums for disingenuous commentary..the discussion is about wages, not an electronic attempt at debasing those with which we wish to discuss the occupations and trades.

I do speak spanish, and french in limited ways, and I have worked for quite some time, and _MY_ reality is not the same as others. I had thought that my comments were pretty straight forward as to `the reality checkin` assumption....I thought that by offering a comment or two from a bit of a diffrent angle would be my two cents worth.

That said, we all wish to strive for better working conditions, long stable careers and if this is a pipe dream, opposing it with disgruntled employees (ers), terrible working conditions, bad wages, then that at least should be open for discussion?

The fatalistic assumption of `that is the way it is, just deal with it`does not cut it.. by having open discourse on the subject maybe someone's opnion or situation changes for the better....it is by action that we can make this a better area of passionate employment...freddychef


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

My experiences are similar to Evil-gal's. After completing my apprenticeship, I took my first job as a newly minted cook at Baur au Lac, in Zürich, a 5 star hotel, whose Chef had a long string of credentials. Pay? Aboslutely minimum, the minimum amount set by the Swiss Labour board. Clothes, knives, and other equipment were supplied by yourself. You did get a laundry allowance, again right on the minimum set by the labour board, which didn't even pay for laundry soap. This was a common theme in all good 4 and 5 star places, you got paid the minimum and worked for the experience, and most importantly, the testemonial, or letter of reference.

Yup, all good cooks should be paid to what they're worth. But who's gonna pay? Take this example and comment on it:

Mom and pop diner, clean, but cheap. Special of the day is lasagna. It's a good one. The cook actually took whole chuck, cut it finely, sauted it properly, braised it properly with real stock and tomatoes. He actually made a real bechemel, and layered the lasagna with it and ricotta. Simple, honest, good food. With a salad and home made vinaigrette and maybe a piece of home made focaccia, what would you pay for it? 

Honestly, what would you pay for it? $6.00? $7.00? under $10.00? What do you think the cook earns? To make what I described takes a good command of cooking techinques, skill, and respect for the ingredients. In a 4 or 5 star kitchen the above mentioned cook could survive and flourish with those skills. But it's a mom & pop place, if the cook doesn't own the business, then he/she is earning buck minimum, and probably is holding down a few other jobs as well.

Not saying all good food must come from 5 star places, and only 5 star places can afford to pay cooks what they're worth. But those are the only places people are willing to pay for good cooks. As a result most places, places were people eat almost every day, not just for special occasions, sell convience food, frozen packaged lasagna, frozen soups, powdered stocks, etc, ad nauseum. There might be a lot of good cooks, but there aren't that many places for them where customers are comfortable to pay for food to make it possible for those cooks to earn what they deserve.

Oh, and Laprise, you were saying something about profits? Theres an old saying about restaurant owners, goes something like this: 

If you want to make small fortune with a restaurant, start off with a large fortune....


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

My labor cost is up to me. If I want to hire monkeys, scabs, illegals or anything else that is my perogative. But the fact is that I know what I can spend on staff. But my experience is that if I pay for good help I get good help.
My agreement with my staff is "If you want a bigger slice of the pie, cut it in less pieces". Meaning- If 5 people do the work of 7, I am willing to pay that amount I would have paid the 7. We also tip-share WHICH IS LEGAL. Did I also mention that by hiring people with TALENT I am able to pay them more by NOT RELYING ON RTU PRODUCTS! And what do I get out of it? REMARKABLY LOW STAFF TURNOVER! Staff turnover is disruptive and expensive and probably why so many restaurants fail. Whether in large or small settings.
I did an analysis of my total cost of goods and determined that I could comfortably raise labor cost by careful management of foodcost. As long as my actual COGS are at or below my my target COGS, and maintain product and service integrity, then why not pay the employees instead of screw them. 
btw- if someone with enough talent to make an amazing handmade meal and get $6.00-$7.00 they need to get a business manager. It is either over-the-top for the clientele or way below what it is worth. "5-star" is worth something no matter where it is served......
And I agree with your quote Foodpump. That is why my motto has been "Attrition is my friend".....


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Peach,
That thinking is soo rediculous. It's rational, makes sense, can't work!!
How dare you analyze your cogs to shave a bit, to add to you labor cost.
Did they say you could do that in school?
Wait! Since I charge 46 bucks for a cake when everyone around me is at 20. Does that mean that I can pay my pastry chef of 18 yrs more then the hotels pay for exec. chef. give him a car,phone etc. can I pay everyone else, the pay that most exec pastry chef make. Does that mean I can take a sanitation person and put them on pulled sugar for a month. Does that mean I can cross train everyone in the kitchen. Can I run with a 31% labor cost?
Can I acually give a annual piece of the bakery to all full time employees?
NO WAY A MOM AND POP 1200. SQ. FT. BAKERY CAN DO THAT!!!!!
READ THE BOOKS!!! PEACH, YOU CAN'T BE SUCESSFUL DOING THAT!!!!


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I'll bring up your points at our Shareholders Meeting this summer in Bora Bora.

Another benefit of stable trustworthy employees- we take vacations. Lots of vacations....


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## kuan (Jun 11, 2001)

Peach is not human. His food cost is something ridiculous like 3%. OK maybe not, but insane low. Care to let it out Peach old pal?


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Nobody's answered my question, what would you pay for a lasagna in a mom & pop diner?
Me, I've got the inside scoop. It's a diner, and not in the downtown core, so most people would pay no more than $7.95, including salad and foccacia, and would probably expect and demand a free coffee with it too. What makes me so sure? I was there. I owned a place like that, and what I've described is how I cook, don't know any other way. I know personally from experience that the same food would sell for $12.95 or even $15.00 in a better area, but customers will only pay the absolute minimum. I've seen other places across the street from me sell frozen mnfctr stuff for less than $7.95 and they somehow survive. Customers won't pay more than that in our area, so either sell crap that doesn't need a cook to do it, or do something else. To put it into other words, "The market sets the prices". 

So what? What's this got to do with cook's salaries? Well, I can be Santa and pay my employees what they're worth, irregardless of what I sell the food for, and go bankrupt quickly, or I can sell the food for what the market will bear, and pay the employees accordingly. Is it fair to be penalized for where your restaurant is located, or the decor, or the type of food it sells even though it is prepared with the best ingredients and excellent cooks? 

No it's not fair, it's kind of like being paid according to your gender or race, not your abilities or skills. But customers won't pay higher prices if you don't have walnut paneling and $500 chairs, even though the food is good and the cooks are trained and perform their duties well. Reality sucks, doesn't it?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

foodpump,
You're absolutely right. I understand exactly what you are saying. That's the reason why this crazy idea of standardizing will never happen.
I gotta tell you though, price isn't an issue when it comes to quality food. For me, anyway.
I'm blessed to have the situation I have. But I did take a huge risk. I pay an outrageous rent! I put myself in the middle of 4 bakery franchises(within walking distance) I was called an idiot! Every person on this board would have nixed my business plan, as did the banks.
If you going to bring a quality business into the area, the biggest problem is to educate the customer. I figured if I was going to bang my head against the wall trying to do so, I made sure the demographics were right. average income within a 3 mile radius 5 yrs ago was 3.5.


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably. If the labor cost on lasagne is too high, then either raise the price, cut down on portion size, or find something that you CAN make and sell profitably and forget about lasagne completely. Another reason that so many restaurants fail is that people confuse being able to cook with have a salable product. If I didn't see a need for the kind of business that I do, I would have never opened one. I'm not here to educate the consumer. I am here to provide a service that I can provide at a price that the consumer is willing to pay. 
So from everything I know its seems that cooks and chefs bear the brunt of economic hardship brought on by bad business decisions. Hmm. Thats is what you get when the field is overrun with lots of people of varying degrees of education/ certification and little ability. And sadly we agree to let them make the rules.


And as for my food cost? How does the old song go?-

Oh Peachcreek!
Oh Peachcreek! 
How could you be so mean?
To have had invented the Sausage-Meat machine?....

Just kidding. If you are old enough you probably know the rest!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

"... It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably. If the labor cost on lasagne is too high, then either raise the price, cut down on portion size, or find something that you CAN make and sell profitably and forget about lasagne completely."..

Been there, done that. After two months at the diner I came to a paradigm. My market wouldn't respond to what ever I did. Yeah, I was young and foolish, with my wife we bought a diner in a light industrial area. That was my market, the employees (about 2,000 of a light industrial area) and price was King, no one cared a rodent's derriere about quality, but if you cut down on the portion size, word was all over the place that you were "cheating". So I was in a sticky situation, having just invested my life savings in a business and couldn't sell a meal to save my life, irregardless of the quality. Good thing my wife has brains. If the market wouldn't pay what we needed to exist, we would find another market. One that wouldn't penalize us for not having a fancy dining room. We started off with catering, and have been doing so ever ever since, we're in our ninth year now. But I want to highlight something to you: 

After our 3rd year we had started to make ourselves a name for catering. Through a friend's (and our client's) recommendation a customer wanted us to cater for her Husband's retirement party. The woman worked in a business in our area and had eaten at our diner. After negotiating a menu and price, the woman insisted for a 20% discount. Why? Because we were "the deli down the street" . No other reason. Although the food would be presented on silver platters, brass and chrome accented chafers, on our crisp white linens, and in her own home, we were still being penalized for being what we were. We were not allowed to be judged on our skills, food or service. This attitude comes up time and time again with new clients who balk at our prices, "Why, you're only slightly cheaper than X (a well established, reputable caterer), You're still small, right? How can you do this?

So to quote you again, "It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably." 

How do you do this? How does McD's sell a burger profitably when the packaging, overhead, and condiments cost almost as much as the product? Advertising, yeah sure, but most importantly, IMAGE. Why do people line up, make plans to eat in a renown 5 star place, and don't bat an eyelash when they drop $200 for a meal? Image. Why do people leave a 20% tip in a fancy place and refuse to tip a waitress in a diner even though she provides just as good service, and has a something that really counts in between her ears? Image. 

People, that is customers, won't pay the prices it needs to pay salaries to qualified staff if the house doesn't have an "image". But there are only so many places that can afford to have an "image" and a lot more cooks and other qualified staff that deserve a better salary.


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## aprilb (Feb 4, 2006)

OK, do you mean that all of the massive numbers of dining establishments throughout the hundreds of National Parks could SURVIVE using only certified chefs? Slave labor still exists. 

When I worked in Yellowstone most of the people were unskilled and evaluated for various positions in food establishments throughout the park over a short training period. It was a nightmare. Do you think that they could operate without the minimum wage help? No. The food might be better, but they really don't care. 

On the other hand:

I do take issue with all of that train of thought. I've been cooking since I was pulling taffy with my grandmother at 7 years old. Just because she wasn't a certified "cullinary academy" do you honestly believe I didn't learn anything? 

Food is an artistic passionate sensual skill. You either have it or you don't. Any person can be taught how to chop an onion, but is it a be all end all thing you just do or are you constantly thinking about the next step? Or what else you could do with that little onion? 

My daughter has been helping me since she was 6. She makes the most brilliant omelettes/chinese omelettes/eggs I've ever had. She's now 14. Are you telling me that she has to go to some school to certify what she already knows how to do? 

Life is too short to eat bad food. Or skip over brilliant cooks just because they can't afford the 25k+ tuition to get "certified" and waste time in a school if they are already intuitive and passionate about cooking.

April
:chef:


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

QUOTE:
Life is too short to eat bad food. Or skip over brilliant cooks just because they can't afford the 25k+ tuition to get "certified" and waste time in a school if they are already intuitive and passionate about cooking.

Hey AprilB,

you don't have to spend 25K to get a culinary certification, actually many programs are free, and many more in the $2000 to $6000 range!

Just remember, the school and/or the cost of the school does not make the cook. Education is a good thing! It will help anyone reach their full potential with a culinary base, much quicker than without it...


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## peachcreek (Sep 21, 2001)

I think there is a certain population of customers that pull that cr2p on everyone they do business with and occasionally people will give in.

Personally I would have told them to go use X. Or better yet, ask if money is a problem that maybe some supermarket deli trays or maybe some Costco frozen appetizers and mini desserts might be they way to go? And they can do that themselves and save a ton of money! 
Really. If you are going to let people walk on you and get away with it that creates a bad precedent for everyone. Now I am curious. Did you give her the discount? Inquiring minds wanna know!


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Nope. Stuck to our guns and told her that was the price. In this town there's only two kinds of caterers, the Costco kind, and the other kind, we're the other kind.

Look, here's a sticky situation for you, read how we handled it, and ask yourself how you would handle it:

From time to time we do small movie/TV series catering. Nothing big, hot lunches for 30-50. We were refered to from another production, set up a menu, contract etc. Contract was for 4 weeks, 35 lunches, 12$ a lunch, paid every week. First and second weeks go by and it's all smooth sailing, end of the third week the ***. producer comes to me with a plate with a fly in the mashed potatoes. Big letter from her saying she won't pay for that day, and if we don't take that loss, she won't pay for the whole week. Write her back and tell her the fly (this is January) did not come from my kitchen, it was found intact and unmolested, and was assumed to have originated in a 6" deep hotel pan full of mashed pototoes. If it had come from my kitchen it would have been pureed. Invited her to call the health dept. and lodge a complaint. Also made it clear that we were only responsible for food, not the cleanliness of her lunch room, which could be cleaner, and was full of empty beverage cans. Refuses to pay, says "we'll have to discuss this", but no time or appointment given. March into her office and get 10 minutes of her time. Told her again, we would comp her the mashed potatoes, but not 35 meals. She's screaming about courts and lawyers. Told her to calm down and that, 1) she didn't call the health dept, so I can't accept this as a genuine complaint, 2) she didn't have the said fly to show the health dept. if she wanted to complain now, two days later, AND 3) I have a letter from her saying that if we don't accept a $500 loss she won't pay the remaining $2000 and that, in anyone's opinion, is extortion. Oh, and by the way, if you want to go to court, it'll be small claims, and no lawyers are permitted. She says she'll try the court.

What did I do? Took the $500 loss but got her accountant to cut me a cheque for the remaing $2000 before I left the office. I could easily win in small claims, ****, the Judge could shake my hand, but I'd never get the court to make the client cough up, they're toothless.

Now, two months before that, we did a private Grey Cup party, Canada's version of the Superbowl. Big thing, 600 people, 6 food stations, 4 bars, 24 on-site staff. Compliments all around, pretty much smooth sailing, got paid immediatley. Good event, happy memories. 
#$%^&! what a life, never a dull moment around here...


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## ogreplate (Mar 2, 2006)

Wages, One of my biggest frustrations. I've been around awhile and have seen several perspectives on this. I started as a dishwasher. I hitch hiked 25 miles to and back every day to wash dishes- in Alaska. I've paid my dues. I've opened and unfortunately closed my own restaurant. I have worked as a line cook for some years, a sous chef for a few years and as an executive chef at a couple of places. I work long hard hours. I'm good at my job. A couple of years ago I was unhappy with my wages and thought I need a certification. I went deep in debt for an education and graduated with a 4.0 g.p.a.. I did learn something, but, now I have a 600.00/month education payment.- It wasn't worth that much. I'm glad I went, but I don't neccessarily think I'm any better on the job. More knowlegeable? Sure. Bottom line- I'm currently making $4.25 an hour less than before I went to school. Most Chefs I've talked to see me as a guy with skills,but fresh out of culinary school,therefore I must not be ready for the higher dollar yet. Very confusing. As far as our cooks south of the border. Yes, they drive down our wages, as does the multitudes of wanna be chefs that the culinary schools pump out. Any good cook that I work with that is from south of the border I always tell- If your settling for minimum wage please don't. Your selling yourself and me short. As a prior restaurant owner I understand the importance of the profit margin all to well. I figure if you can't make a living at something it called a hobby. If you make a living its called a profession. I guess I'm kind of a professional hobbyist.


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## chef m (Mar 10, 2006)

hears a theory! hire a dishwasher a pup and weed them out t see if the desire to cook, and if so then they will become a great investment to the busness. pay is low and they have something to work up to, but of course you need leaders in the kitchen where everyone looks up to and trust.


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## jolly roger (Jan 27, 2006)

Whoa there, Panini! I think you horibly missed the point I was making. First, didn't accuse an entire race of people of being dirty. It's my experience that I have had to properly instruct many cooks that were not from the U.S. what is acceptable and what is not in food handling procedure. I didn't refer to anyone as a worm, but "worm" meaning a problem, not an individual. And as for point 2.) (worm number two), It was about hiring quality people and not hacks. I'll set a cook's wage higher than another's if he/she knows thier stuff and does a great job. If I hired a hack, then I or someone else on my payroll has to babysit the meathead. I take offense at your taking undue offense at what I wrote. So if I made myself clear here, I hope we can cuddle and be friends. I'm surely no more an "Archie Bunker" than you are. BTW, what the h*ll is ***?


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I gave up appologizing to anyone for my actions for Lent.
I kinda remember your post, I'm thinking it was maybe your first week here. 
Let's see, I'm in Texas, probably have a large population of Hispanics, the size of a race. Let me see, did you know that Spanish is our first language?Hmm? I understand what you meant by worm, and you described my kitchen in lenght, except my employees have work cards or are citizens. Let's see, they will screw you up. I think I mentioned before your posted that I have had people with me for 18yrs plus. My Pastry Chef, Juan. Well his son just got a full ride schlorship to a college prepetory high school. With your money. I pay 13,000 yr. for the same education, no beefs here.

"A side point, most of the time they come to our country with no knowledge of safe food handling, knowledge of international cooking styles, and a disregard for cleanliness. Don't hire these guys. That's about seventy percent of our collective problem."

I may be lazyheaded, but I'm proud to be a part in these people lives.
You might be to old to remember, but this whole **** country was built by immigrants and aliens. This was supposed to be the land of opportunity. Well when my family decided to come here for a new start, they boarded ships,(let me say here, a brave thing for anyone to do, then or now) while on the ships, they were so intent on making it to the US, they did not want anything to jeopardize that. They feared that there would be something in their paperwork that might blacklist them at the statue, they made the decision to take their citizenship and medical records, and throw them overboard. An even riskier thing to do! When they arrived here, they were given immunizations and there papers were stamped *** with out papers.
It sickens me to think that we have screwed up our gov't so bad, and filled it with so much red tape, we have shut down our borders to people looking for a better life. Who the heck do we think we are. I have to believe that every last immigrant that busted their hump to build this beautiful place is now turning in their graves.
Sorry for the rant. Jolley Roger, I have come to know you by your posts and know you don't really feel this way. I just felt that someone needed to stick up for aliens and immigrants. You may be right, they may not have cooking skills,and a disreguard for cleanliness,and lack food handling proceedures. Heck, that discribes ALMOST, repeat ALMOST every nineteen yr. old that has applied here in the past three years.
I'm actually going to take a break from posting for a while, I think I just want to read. Jolley, man, how long did you carry that around for? I am certainly an ABunker. I used to listen to my old man bitcccing about how the unions were having so much trouble breaking up these monopolies and such. It took the crumble of this country to ask for those opinions again. The guy makes sence. This country has gone full circle back to huge monopolies and conglomerates. He used to have an Italian expression he used when talking about this battle that translated to something along the lines of going to the edge of a cliff and urinating into the wind or peeing into a fan. It just comes back on ya. Man, went way over the line.The only result this can bring to our industry is having our customers accepting mediocracy. Jolly. I luv ya. You won't find to many posts of that nature by me in the last 6 yrs. or so.
Panini
BTW working and sending monies home, well, I understand. tomorrow you could be deported. I would be willing to bet that over 70% of illegal aliens would give up the natural citizenship to become American. Hey, there are many disreputable people amongst the illegals here. I know that. If we don't recognize that organizations like MS13 can grow large enough to take over cities. I'm all over, I know, guess I just wanted to get alot out before my


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## jolly roger (Jan 27, 2006)

Word up, Panini. Thanks for the 411 on "***". And thanks for being such a great sport.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

You're a HOOT!!
From a ***!! 
Life is wat too short.


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## ogreplate (Mar 2, 2006)

Panini,
Yeah, my post was kinda all over the place too. I guess these are topics that we all have big opinions about. I have worked with many cooks from south of the border and have made some good friends. I would say the majority put forth their best efforts and were eager to learn. You can't ask much more than that if a guy doesn't have experience as a professional cook. My only gripe is that they sell themselves short by working too cheaply. In turn it makes me look like a schmuck when I tell a prospective employer what I expect to be paid. I work hard,I'm exceptionally reliable, and feel I'm a knowledgeable capable cook. To date my record was 726 covers from the grill during a dinner rush. Not too shabby if I do say so myself, and not a one was sent back. Do I think I'm special- No. I've worked with many hispanic workers who could keep up. I just think that if someone works hard they deserve to be paid well- whether from here or not. Just like yourself, my family originally came to this country from elsewhere(mostly Ireland). That's the American dream- long may it live. I agree with your opinions. I have no problem with hispanic workers. I prefer it that they go through the right channels to work legally. When the topic of wages comes up I have all sorts of opinions. Going to culinary school has given me some different perspectives. When we did our externships we had choices as to where to go. I took a Sous Chef's position at a golf club. I ended up getting hired on permanently afterwards. It was a good move. Some of my friends went on to do externships for some celebrity chef's. Good exprience for them I guess,but they didn't get paid for these externships or get a job out of these externships-I did. I find no honor in working for free and feel that these chefs who work someone's butt off for free when they could afford to pay them should be ashamed of themselves. In the end, it should be a fair compromise between the profit margin and paying a worker fairly. I hope you don't hide out too long reading everyone's posts. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and I respect your opinion.


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## chef kaiser (Mar 12, 2006)

hi, 

well we may should look back into history, to answer that question. however i believe it will take an other some decades untill our profession is truley respected worldwide. (please contact me if you want a biography about the work and achievement of Esciffier)

However after 30 years in the business i do see a change, maybe it is because of all the TV Chefs. But for sure we can not be all Chefs on TV as there are not enough TV stations. It is like one Executive Chef to one Hotel, so also that position is limited. 

Therefore believe in what you are doing and do it right in your live time and believe in hard work first as an apprentice, then a commis, eventually a chef de partie, sous chef and reach the top as the executive chef in a great hotel, but all takes time and believe waht you want to be in live and love to do, but there is no real short cut to that position.

regards


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## ogreplate (Mar 2, 2006)

Chef Kaiser,
I'd have to agree with you. The quote that you posted makes some sense, but I don't know if I entirely agree with it . I am a certified cook(ACF) and I have a degree, but I have lots of friends who don't have degrees or certifications and their skills are just as good as mine-only they don't have huge student loans to pay. I do believe hard work and passion will take you far in this trade, but I don't know if it needs to start with a certification or a degree. Me personally, I like to take a new hire and give them some things from the walk-in and say make me a meal, by the way this is your interview. Thanks. Then, have lunch with them and discuss the job. If they have skills you will now know- it is a fair way of doing things I think.


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## laprise (Jan 4, 2006)

I like your style, it test their skills under pressure, but time is the only true test to find out what you got for a cook. Many cooks will turn out to be duds after a few weeks. So ultimately, the interview is an obligatory 3 months probation.

My two cents!


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