# Cooking meat at low temperature in the oven... no thanks!



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

What about cooking meat at low temperature in the oven? I'm so done with it!

Look at the picture below. I nicely seared a rack of lamb in a pan, then continued in the oven at 120°C(248°F), using a meat thermometer set at 58°C(136°F). I haven't timed it exactly, but I guess it took around 30 minutes to get there.

When cut, the meat was warmed through perfectly, but still looked almost raw.

I can decribe the taste like this; utterly bland and boring, although it had been seasoned well!

This is my last try-out with oven cooking at low temperature. I had the same experience with pork-loin. I very much prefer to use the oven at 180°C(356°C) or even higher. Only then you get that crispy dark crust and meat full of taste (umami?) and, with just the right bit of a chew on. I rather give up the tenderness of the meat for a really nice taste.

What are your experiences with low oven temperatures?

(In case you want to know, in the picture you're also looking at shiitakes, shiitake flan, potatoes, belgian endive and my favorite addition to lamb: flageolets (the beans, sorry, don't know the english word).


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

There are certain meats that should not be cooked in a low temp in the oven and rack of lamb is definitely one of those. It's such a tender meat anyway why would you need it to be any softer? My rule of thumb is the pricier the meat, the higher the heat. The lower the price, low slow cooking makes it nice. (I just made that up! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif)

When it comes to tender cuts like tenderloins, prime rib, rack of lamb etc you want a nice crisp outside and reddish tender inside. There is only one way to achieve this and that is to sear it before it goes into the oven. I rub with olive oil, salt pepper and sear on all sides. Then I season it with other flavorings and continue cooking in the oven. There is a large portion of the population that believes that you should just place the meat in a very high oven for 15-30 minutes in the beginning to get a sear on the outside and then turn the oven down for the remainder of cooking but I say bahumbug to that! That's only a poor imitation of a sear. If you want a good color on the outside just sear it then pop it in the oven.

Cheaper cuts of meat like the shoulders of animals need low slow cooking. For Christmas I made a slow roasted shoulder of lamb, covered and cooked at 325F for 4hours. It had a beautiful color but I was able to serve it with a spoon it was so tender. If I were to cook this for 2hrs at 375 it would come out like shoe leather. So pick your meat and go from there.

The one exception is prime rib. There is a school of thought that believes that you must cook prime rib at a very low temperature for a long time. But this is not so that it tenderizes the meat, this method ensures that you have uniform pink meat throughout. Personally I prefer searing this cut as well, well done and crisp along the outside and gradually getting pinker and redder in the middle.

Lastly, a rack of lamb is a special thing. I cook this cut but searing it on the outside on all sides and then finishing in the oven. The whole process takes no more than 35min and it comes out perfectly every time. Sorry you had a bad experience roasting.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_My rule of thumb is the pricier the meat, the higher the heat. _

Great observation, KK, and good rule of thumb. But you can go overboard with it. Following it exactly, around here we'd have to cook lamb at about 700F. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Chris, could you post your recipe for the shiitake flan? Thanx!


----------



## buckeye_hunter (Nov 2, 2009)

As further proof of point, I am sharing a picture of a ribeye roast that I prepared in my Big Green Egg for Christmas. It had been seasoned and aged in my butcher's cooler for a few weeks prior to cooking and actually lost over 10% of its weight. ( I wonder if the same would work for me...)

With a full charge of natural hardwood lump charcoal...and another small amount ignited in a charcoal chimney...with top and bottom dampers opened to the max...I emptied the burning coals into the belly of the beast, closed the lid, and let nature and science to themselves!

After a few minutes the BGE was in full glory, creating temps in excess of 650. After a quick gut-check, I threw the roast directly on the coals and closed the lid. After 30 minutes, I slowly opened the grill. Flames surrounded the meat and it was incorporated into the fire. (BTW, I felt like a real MAN!) I knew that my grilling utensils were not long enough to reach the depths of the furnace. I had already resigned myself to reaching into the furnace to recapture the ribeye raost, which now looked like a size 14 EEE boot whose steel toe would be needed for positive identification. After another quick gut-check, and armed with my long leather grilling mitts I reached into the inferno and quickly flipped the meat and closed the grill. Mission accomplished!

Temps still in the 600-700 range.

After another 20-30 minutes, I pulled the roast out of the grill and, with the lingering scent of singed hair in the air, closed down the dampers and added the grill rack to continue the process.

With just a few adjustments to the dampers, the BGE slowly made its way to a pretty constant 325 and after 2 more hours the internal temp was nearing 130. I took it in and put it in my roaster for the trip to my mother's in anticipation of oooohs and ahhhhhs.



Things were not quite ready at mom's when I arrived so I have a few glasses of wine and let the roast rest.

I regret to this day that I did not have the capacity of mind to take a picture of the meat after I sliced it. It was a thing of beauty! Wonderful med-rare beef surrounded by a 1/8" crust of 100% burnt flavor!

...I agree, save the low and slow for braising!


----------



## phatch (Mar 29, 2002)

I do prime rib at 250 and finish with a sear for crusting. Works great.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

buckeye, we want to see the inside!  It's the inside that counts!


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

KYHeirloomer said:


> _My rule of thumb is the pricier the meat, the higher the heat. _
> 
> Great observation, KK, and good rule of thumb. But you can go overboard with it. Following it exactly, around here we'd have to cook lamb at about 700F. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif


 Good one!! Haha, don't raise the temp according to price, but you know what I mean.


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

KKV; _"...When it comes to tender cuts like tenderloins, prime rib, rack of lamb etc you want a nice crisp outside and reddish tender inside..."_

We're on exactly the same page!

BuckeyeHunter; very impressive! Also good to know; I recently watched one of our 3 michelinstar cooks in his kitchen. He has 3 small of those green eggs lined up to give cooked meat a very last boost at high temperature, just before plating. He added that they did so with nearly all meat that left the kitchen! It's all about taste, isn't it?

KYH, here you go for the flan;

Panfry diced mushrooms untill almost all liquid is gone. Add finely chopped shallot and garlic and fry. S&P and chopped parcely. Leave to cool.

(You can make these flans with all kinds of veggies, but they have to be softened first (panfried, steamed etc.). You can use pureed veggies too like celeriac, carrots etc.)

Warm 1 dl milk and 2 dl cream. I added 1/2 crumbled chickenstock cube. Taste for extra seasoning!!

Beat 2 eggs and 2 eggyolks. Mix with the creammixture. Fill ramequins with veggies, around halffull. Pour creammixture on it.

For more density, take 4 whole eggs. I should have done so, they were a little too soft.

Put ramequins in an oventray. Fill oventray with hot water untill halfway the height of the ramequins. I put the ramequins first on a double layer of bakingpaper to avoid them browning at the base. Bake in the oven at 160°C for 30-45 minutes.

Leave to cool somewhat, cut around the edges to loosen and quickly turn around on the plates. BTW, when using nice ramequins you can put them on the plate without having to get them out. Much easier!


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks, Chris.

What does dl stand for. I'm sure I can find a conversion figure for it once I know what it means.


----------



## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

KYHeirloomer said:


> Thanks, Chris.
> 
> What does dl stand for. I'm sure I can find a conversion figure for it once I know what it means.


dl = deciliter = 1/10 liter = 100 ml

1 _deciliter_ = 3.3814 fluid _ounces_


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

In all my years in the business, and after cooking thousands of prime ribs, I would never neither cook one or serve one that looked like this. Sorry


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks Pete.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

chefedb said:


> In all my years in the business, and after cooking thousands of prime ribs, I would never neither cook one or serve one that looked like this. Sorry


Why is that? The thermometer barely says 130 internal. You know what they say, if you don't have anything nice to say...


----------



## gobblygook (Aug 26, 2010)

Koukouvagia said:


> chefedb said:
> 
> 
> > In all my years in the business, and after cooking thousands of prime ribs, I would never neither cook one or serve one that looked like this. Sorry
> ...


Just a guess here, but the layer of carbon surrounding the roast would need to be removed. If I'm not mistaken, cooking meat to that level of overcooked is carcinogenic. If you have to trim all of that off, then you have no "crust" on the outside any longer. Again, I'm just spit-balling, but I cringed when I read placing the meat directly on the coals and opening up an inferno.


----------



## buckeye_hunter (Nov 2, 2009)

If everyone were the same, it would be an awfully boring world.

All at the table loved the meat, and no, we did not carve off the crust (which may have been closer to 1/16th of an inch).

I, too, have heard of the studies regarding the dangers of overcooked meat and would not recommend it every day.  I may have done more to threaten my health by sitting in front of my laptop reading the responses and typing this reply. 

I just wish I had taken a pic of the meat after slicing it...


----------



## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

buckeye_hunter said:


> Things were not quite ready at mom's when I arrived so I have a few glasses of wine and let the roast rest.
> 
> I regret to this day that I did not have the capacity of mind to take a picture of the meat after I sliced it. It was a thing of beauty! Wonderful med-rare beef surrounded by a 1/8" crust of 100% burnt flavor!
> 
> ...I agree, save the low and slow for braising!


I would be all over it like a fat boy on a jelly donut. Nice bh! I do something similar with my Prime Rib


----------



## jblade (Dec 9, 2010)

Koukouvagia said:


> My rule of thumb is the pricier the meat, the higher the heat. The lower the price, low slow cooking makes it nice. (I just made that up! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif)


Sounds like a good rule of thumb, I will remember that!


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

PeteMcCracken said:


> KYHeirloomer said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, Chris.
> ...


Thanks Pete, I saw this question only this morning.


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Koukouvagia . Different strokes for different folks is correct, but as I have always said I AM NOT  in a home cooking enviorment. In a commercial setting I could not serve this even just based on eye appeal. My customers would complain and go elsewhere. Home is different , a totally different mind set and thought process. We are not cooking for ourselves,or  catering to our own  likes and dislikes .We are cooking for the general public (our customers) and tend to listen to them. Its not that I am saying something not nice about anyone or anything.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat that can be dry roasted that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. Maybe because there are no cuts here that are all that large like you'd get in then states, i don;t know, but my 8 kg turkey (17 lb?) is always cooked at about 450 and comes out juicy inside and crispy outside. I tent it with foil if it seems to be getting too brown. Roast beef (i rarely get to make this, since it's so expensive - consider about 4 times what it costs in the states) is the same. I rarely find a whole leg of lamb (not baby lamb) but when i have it also comes out great. I don;t understand why to cook it slow - apart from the fact that there are only so many hours i can stand smelling roasting meat without going crazy and cutting of a corner to eat it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - it works really well and keeps it juicy inside and crusty outside. (It does develop the crust, koukouvagia, if you LEAVE it at a high heat and you eliminate one more step.)


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

siduri said:


> I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat that can be dry roasted that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. Maybe because there are no cuts here that are all that large like you'd get in then states, i don;t know, but my 8 kg turkey (17 lb?) is always cooked at about 450 and comes out juicy inside and crispy outside. I tent it with foil if it seems to be getting too brown. Roast beef (i rarely get to make this, since it's so expensive - consider about 4 times what it costs in the states) is the same. I rarely find a whole leg of lamb (not baby lamb) but when i have it also comes out great. I don;t understand why to cook it slow - apart from the fact that there are only so many hours i can stand smelling roasting meat without going crazy and cutting of a corner to eat it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - it works really well and keeps it juicy inside and crusty outside. (It does develop the crust, koukouvagia, if you LEAVE it at a high heat and you eliminate one more step.)


 What about osso bucco? What about brisket? What about pork shoulder or lamb shoulder? What about pot roast? What about roasting a chuck roast? What about a pork belly? These need gentle roasting. You can't just say that there are no cuts of meat that don't benefit from a high roasting temperature.


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

_Siduri; "...I don't understand why to cook it slow ..."_

Well, I started this thread because there's an undeniable contemporary kitchen trend of trying to cook all meat at low temperature. It's due to all that "sous-vide" nonsense, aka vacuum packing and cooking just under 60°C. It should keep meat very tender. Cooking tender meat like lamb in the oven doesn't work for me, not even at 120°C! My experience is that tender meat comes out bland and without any taste at all when cooked at low temperatures.

I prefer to sear tender meat at high temperature in a pan first and finnish in the oven at high temperature. The meat gets an even more nicer and tastier crust. I prefer to sacrifice tenderness for taste.


----------



## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

Koukouvagia said:


> siduri said:
> 
> 
> > I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat that can be dry roasted that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. Maybe because there are no cuts here that are all that large like you'd get in then states, i don;t know, but my 8 kg turkey (17 lb?) is always cooked at about 450 and comes out juicy inside and crispy outside. I tent it with foil if it seems to be getting too brown. Roast beef (i rarely get to make this, since it's so expensive - consider about 4 times what it costs in the states) is the same. I rarely find a whole leg of lamb (not baby lamb) but when i have it also comes out great. I don;t understand why to cook it slow - apart from the fact that there are only so many hours i can stand smelling roasting meat without going crazy and cutting of a corner to eat it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - it works really well and keeps it juicy inside and crusty outside. (It does develop the crust, koukouvagia, if you LEAVE it at a high heat and you eliminate one more step.)
> ...


whoa dude/dudette

put the machine gun down

You got meat questions and recipe questions

Let's handle one at a time.

osso bucco is a recipe

brisket - 210 degrees for 12 hours

pork/lamb shoulder - fatty cuts, slow roast or sear and slow roast

pot roast? beef or pork, pot roast is not a cut.

chuck roast - bone in (seven bone roast) or boneless? I would sear and slow roast, it is a fatty cut

pork belly - oven sear and back down slow

are there other butchers here?

help me out bros!


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Aso, while I thank you for answering my questions let me just say that they weren't really questions.  I was responding to Siduri who claimed that all meat should be cooked at a high temperature.  The "questions" I posed were all examples of meat dishes that can't be simply roasted at a high temperature.


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

siduri said:


> I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat that can be dry roasted that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. Maybe because there are no cuts here that are all that large like you'd get in then states, i don;t know, but my 8 kg turkey (17 lb?) is always cooked at about 450 and comes out juicy inside and crispy outside. I tent it with foil if it seems to be getting too brown. Roast beef (i rarely get to make this, since it's so expensive - consider about 4 times what it costs in the states) is the same. I rarely find a whole leg of lamb (not baby lamb) but when i have it also comes out great. I don;t understand why to cook it slow - apart from the fact that there are only so many hours i can stand smelling roasting meat without going crazy and cutting of a corner to eat it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - it works really well and keeps it juicy inside and crusty outside. (It does develop the crust, koukouvagia, if you LEAVE it at a high heat and you eliminate one more step.)





Koukouvagia said:


> siduri said:
> 
> 
> > I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat that can be dry roasted that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. Maybe because there are no cuts here that are all that large like you'd get in then states, i don;t know, but my 8 kg turkey (17 lb?) is always cooked at about 450 and comes out juicy inside and crispy outside. I tent it with foil if it seems to be getting too brown. Roast beef (i rarely get to make this, since it's so expensive - consider about 4 times what it costs in the states) is the same. I rarely find a whole leg of lamb (not baby lamb) but when i have it also comes out great. I don;t understand why to cook it slow - apart from the fact that there are only so many hours i can stand smelling roasting meat without going crazy and cutting of a corner to eat it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif - it works really well and keeps it juicy inside and crusty outside. (It does develop the crust, koukouvagia, if you LEAVE it at a high heat and you eliminate one more step.)
> ...


Hi Koukouvagia

I didn't mean stewing meats or ones like pot roast that have to be cooked with moist heat - what i said was :

_I know this forum has both home and professional cooks and chefs, and so what i say has little weight. But i have not found a meat *that can be dry roasted* that doesn't come out well cooking at a high temperature for the whole time. _

Now i haven't cooked all those cuts you mention, but the ones i recognize are are generally wet cooked, aren;t they? - ossobuco, for instance, or pot roast. I was speaking in a very limited way, of my own experience, with chicken, turkey, roast beef, roast leg of lamb, roast pork (not sure of the cut, there are all different cuts here) - i cook these all at hot temp and they all come out really good. Yes, I used to cook them with a high beginning and then lowering the heat, but when my oven broke and could work only ON or OFF for a few years, till i could get another, i began cooking at high heat for the whole time, and found i liked the results much more: juicier inside and crispier outside. But obviously not for stew meat or pot roast meat or any tough cut like that. I think you should try it.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Actually some of those cuts are not braise, like pork shoulder, lamb shoulder, chuck roast, or pork belly for example.  They do however need to be covered in the oven which I guess means it's not dry heat anymore.  Of course chickens and turkeys and legs of lamb respond beautifully to dry high heat.  But you would be surprised what happens if you wrap the leg of lamb en papillotte and slow roast it.  You get a completely different end result though.  The outside wont' be crispy and the inside won't be medium.  But it's a good result nonetheless.  The greeks call this dish "Lamb Kleftiko" which means "Stolen Lamb" and refers to a time when people would steal a sheep from a sheep herder and would cook it outdoors.  The would dig a hole and bury the lamb and then set a fire over it.  That way if the sheepherder came by looking for his stolen lamb it was nowhere in sight to be found lol!  Anyway the process took all day and apparently it can be served with a spoon.

Chris, I can think of one exception of roast beef where it benefits more from a slow roasting method.  It's a very cheap cut of beef called eye round.  Usually this cut is very difficult to roast medium rare because it literally has the texture of a shoe sole.  However I once saw an episode of America's Test Kitchen and they rubbed the meat with nearly a cup of salt and put it in the refrigerator overnight.  When it is time to cook it you wash off the salt, dry thoroughly then sear it on the stove top.  Transfer to a 250F oven for about 65-90 minutes or until it reaches 115F internally.  Then turn off the oven and leave it in there for another 30-40 minutes without opening the door.  Rest for 15 minutes before slicing.  It's the only example I can think of that benefits from low slow dry heat.  It's a very elegant meal but extremely inexpensive!


----------



## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

Koukouvagia said:


> Aso, while I thank you for answering my questions let me just say that they weren't really questions. I was responding to Siduri who claimed that all meat should be cooked at a high temperature. The "questions" I posed were all examples of meat dishes that can't be simply roasted at a high temperature.


/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif


----------



## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

> It's a very cheap cut of beef called eye of round


It is also the leanest muscle in the cow. We get $3.99/lb.


----------



## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Hi all,

  I think the beauty of some of the higer priced cuts is that you can use a varying dry heat sources and end up with a good product.  A nice Rib Roast will respond well to high heat cooking as well as a slow roast.  The outcome will give you two different products, which are both good. 

    I enjoy cooking a pork roast starting it off on high heat, then turning it down until it reaches an internal temp around 1110-115, take it away from the heat source wrap the top in foil and place in a cooler until the internal temp comes up around 125-130f.  Finish in the oven with moderate heat raising it only at the end to finish any crust that's needed.  The result is incredibly tender, juicy, flavorful pork.

   Would I slow cook lamb chops?   No, I wouldn't.  I've got no idea of it works or not...but I would just stick to what works with lamb chops.  Coincidentally, I made some lamb chops for the wife and I last night.  Gosh are lamb chops good...I wish they were cheaper.

   As I said, I believe many different temperatures can work with a rib roast.  But If I spent the money for a nice dry aged rib roast I would choose a method of cooking that imparted as little flavor on the meat as possible.  I love cooking over a lump fire and also love smoking.   But when I spend the money on a nice dry aged roast I want to taste the craftsmanship of the individual aging the meat for me.  But that's just me...I have no doubt that a dry aged steak cooked over lump would certainly be great.

   While I've cooked many rib roast, using a variety of different heat sources and temperature, A nice slow roasted/basted rib roast is probably my favorite (with a smoked rib roast being a close second.  I actually just got done eating a slow roasted rib roast at work a few minutes ago.  Instead of plugging the roast with garlic by cutting slits in the meat, I normally create channels from the side if the roast (I'll use a temperature probe to create an opening where the fat/tissue touch, then plug garlic along this channel).  I score the fat on top, season and start off at high heat, then turn it low... basting throughout the entire cooking process. 

   Today I went with a slow roasted rib roast channeled with garlic and a sprig of rosemary and then basted with juices and fresh squeezed lemon.  The result is such a tender piece of meat with so much flavor and a nicely rendered crust of tasty goodness.  Potatoes were cooked in the same pan as the rib roast with roasted garlic, rosemary sprigs and lemon slices...the roast and potatoes were basted with the juices/fat at the same times throughout.

   Smoking is almost as good.  While I like a rib roast cooked with high heat too, both of these slow methods puts out a product I like much much more.

    yum!

   dan


----------



## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Koukouvagia said:


> The greeks call this dish "Lamb Kleftiko" which means "Stolen Lamb" and refers to a time when people would steal a sheep from a sheep herder and would cook it outdoors. The would dig a hole and bury the lamb and then set a fire over it. That way if the sheepherder came by looking for his stolen lamb it was nowhere in sight to be found lol! Anyway the process took all day and apparently it can be served with a spoon.


 MMMMmmmm! I almost made Lamb Kleftiko last night but went with chops instead.

dan


----------



## asoefatida (Dec 28, 2010)

gonefishin said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think the beauty of some of the higer priced cuts is that you can use a varying dry heat sources and end up with a good product. A nice Rib Roast will respond well to high heat cooking as well as a slow roast. The outcome will give you two different products, which are both good.
> 
> ...


lamb loin chops are $7.99/lb here (locally raised)

We have similar cooking styles. Yummy rib roasts.


----------



## kcz (Dec 14, 2006)

Koukouvagia said:


> Of course chickens and turkeys and legs of lamb respond beautifully to dry high heat.


I remember putting a chicken in the oven to roast at around 425F, and about 10 minutes later discovering a pet emergency that required a trip to the vet asap. For lack of better ideas in a crisis, I turned the oven down to 200 and ran out the door. Upon returning several hours later, I had no idea what to expect from the chicken but served it anyway. My family still says this was the best chicken they've ever had, twenty years later. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif


----------



## chefedb (Apr 3, 2010)

Every cut is handled differently. There is no one way. One thing though , if at all  possible try not to slit and punch holes in a roast before cooking. You can actually see the juices run out of the holes when it is cooking. I believe for proper seasoning a marinade of some type is in order. If you sprinkle seasoning on outside of meat it is not as effective , as while the meat is cooking it throws out , not in fat and juices. I have found a good marinade to be more effective and tasty then a dry rub. Again every one to their own devices and styles.


----------



## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

Asoefatida said:


> lamb loin chops are $7.99/lb here (locally raised)
> 
> We have similar cooking styles. Yummy rib roasts.


 Hi Asoefatida,

That's certainly a great price for lamb chops, at least compared to the prices I've found around here.

Iowa in general seems like it's been pretty aggressive over the years with a real their agriculture, finding a nice balance of crops and animals. I'm an outsider looking in, at Iowa. But when looking for farms in my area that raise specific breeds farms from Iowa come up quite often. Kudos to Iowa!!!!!!

dan


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

KCZ said:


> Koukouvagia said:
> 
> 
> > Of course chickens and turkeys and legs of lamb respond beautifully to dry high heat.
> ...


I'm willing to try this, why not? How long were you gone exactly?


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

Koukouvagia said:


> Actually some of those cuts are not braise, like pork shoulder, lamb shoulder, chuck roast, or pork belly for example. They do however need to be covered in the oven which I guess means it's not dry heat anymore. Of course chickens and turkeys and legs of lamb respond beautifully to dry high heat. But you would be surprised what happens if you wrap the leg of lamb en papillotte and slow roast it. You get a completely different end result though. The outside wont' be crispy and the inside won't be medium. But it's a good result nonetheless.


Yeah, i can appreciate why cooking it that way can be very appealing. I also can understand why some people like stews and pot roasts, and occasionally i can appreciate them. But if i have the choice between high temp dry roast (with the appropriate meat of course) and slow-moist-cooked meat, i will always opt for the high temp meat. I guess i'm just a cave woman when it comes to meat. And if the end result is supposed to be meat that's crusty outside and juicy inside, i think the lowering of the heat during cooking after the initial browning only prolongs the tantalizing suffering of waiting for it to be cooked. And i think from my experience with it, that it comes better (that is juicier inside) with the all high heat cooking. ON the other hand I don't have experience with very large roasts. In fact, americans would certainly consider any roast i make to be a very small roast.

I like the story of the stolen lamb.

I also like the story of the chicken where you lowered the heat, left the house, and it came out well. I can imagine the recipe - put the chicken in the oven at 450 degrees for 10 minutes, then lower to 200 and leave the house for two hours.... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


----------



## bscepter (Apr 6, 2010)

ChrisBelgium said:


> What about cooking meat at low temperature in the oven? I'm so done with it!
> 
> Look at the picture below. I nicely seared a rack of lamb in a pan, then continued in the oven at 120°C(248°F), using a meat thermometer set at 58°C(136°F). I haven't timed it exactly, but I guess it took around 30 minutes to get there.
> 
> ...


i do a fair amount of lamb chops. i usually pan-roast it, searing the outside and finishing in a 400ºF (205ºC) oven until the center is around 130ºF (55ºC). while it's resting, i then make a pan sauce (usually with brandy and lamb or veal stock). i've always had pretty good luck doing it this way.


----------



## kcz (Dec 14, 2006)

Koukouvagia said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> KCZ said:
> ...


Maybe 3 hours. I feel like I should add a disclaimer...do not try this at home, your mileage may vary, or something else to absolve me of responsibility if your chicken comes out like an old shoe./img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

bscepter said:


> ChrisBelgium said:
> 
> 
> > What about cooking meat at low temperature in the oven? I'm so done with it!
> ...


That's the right way of cooking lamb IMO. Maybe just because the high ovenheat crisps the outside even more and the crust seals the inside meat even better from drying out.

Only thing is you have to watch the inner temperature.


----------



## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

siduri said:


> But if i have the choice between high temp dry roast (with the appropriate meat of course) and slow-moist-cooked meat, i will always opt for the high temp meat.


 Hi Siduri,

Any time I use a high start and then a slow roasting method on a better cut of beef or pork it is always dry heat cooking method, with no top...although I do baste. But the cooking vessel is never sealed or with a top when I go slow roasted with a rib roast, nice pork loin, chicken, etc.

Going slow roasted also doesn't mean that you cook it beyond your preferred temperature. You will still end up with an incredible crust, I think the flavors are usually better because of the basting. You also cook it to the temperature you prefer, I cook my rib roasts to 133. You're not trying to treat a rib roast like pot roast, you're trying to treat it like a slow roasted turkey (think great skin, incredibly juicy, deep roasted flavors and not overcooked)

dan


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

True dan, but i think quicker and it comes out really good.  I know lots of people slow roast meat cuts that I would cook at a high temp - i used to too.  But i discovered quite by accident that high works too, and I think just as well if not better.  Unless you have to cover it, because the cut is not tender enough.


----------



## gonefishin (Nov 6, 2004)

I just couldn't tell from your posts if you were comparing high dry heat to a slow moist covered cook, which I wouldn't do to a nice cut of meat.  You can certainly get good results from both high dry heat and slow dry heat on a nice cut of meat.

   cheers,

  dan


----------



## linny29 (Oct 9, 2010)

All this talk of slow cooking meat is making me rethink my grocery list ... I see a roast in my future!


----------



## skagitchef (Jan 3, 2011)

Yum!!  That crust looks great, and if it's nice and med. rare inside, well, that would be the perfect last meal.


----------



## pdxjazz (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm a food science guy and thought I would weigh in on this discussion. From a scientific standpoint, slow roasting a high quality cut of beef (for example a standing rib roast) is a better method for a couple of reasons. Number one is the natural enzymes in the meat increase their activity with increasing temperature. The slower you cook the meat, the longer those enzymes have time to work in their optimum temperature range breaking down the meat proteins resulting in a more tender cut. Once the internal temperature of the meat hits around 110 F, those enzymes are denatured. This is the same principle as aging (wet or dry) it's just that in aging beef the enzymes work at a much lower temperature and thus a much slower rate so it takes a long time for the meat to tenderize. Number two is roasting in a slow oven (for example 200 F) allows for a more uniform heating of the internal temperature. The outside and inside of the cut will be much closer in temperature and so you get a more even cook. In a hotter oven, the outside gets to the final temperature much faster, so by the time the inside reaches the desired temperature the outer portion will be well past it. Number three is slow roasting allows for better control of carryover heat. Because the meat is heated up slowly, there is less transfer of higher outer heat to the internal portion and thus better control for achieving optimum temperature after the cut has rested (the outer surface is cooler so there is less heat transfer). You will therefore see less of a rise in temperature when the meat is resting.

Ideally getting a good outside crust is achieved by searing (direct contact or high oven heat) *after* slow cooking. The primary reason is the outer surface of the meat had evaporated the surface moisture so the cut spends less time in the searing phase reaching the desired browning (less time evaporating moisture), so less heat is transferred to the internal portion of the cut. There is also some browning during slow cooking so again less time spent over high heat. However it is difficult for many of us to handle a hot rib roast so a compromise is usually made by searing before slow roasting (although easily done with thick cut steaks or small roasts like a culotte). Despite the common belief, searing does not seal in the juices, it is for flavor and appearance.

Personally when I cook a standing rib roast, I dry-age the meat for at least a week (the meat already has a week of wet-aging when I buy it). I season the meat and then sear in a hot 550 F oven for 20 minutes, take the meat out and open the oven door to allow it to cool down to 200 F, and then put the meat back in and cook it at 200 F until the internal temperature reaches 130 F. Rest for 45 minutes covered. I have to admit however my absolute favorite is putting a good BBQ rub on the roast, searing over a hot charcoal fire on my Weber kettle and then slow cooking indirect (again 200 F) with lots of alder or apple wood for smoke flavor.

So please don't give up on slow roasting!


----------



## tkchef (Oct 24, 2010)

I know we are talking meats, but have you slow smoked salmon at 200 degrees for 10 hours?  Medium rare, and out of this world with a yogurt/sour cream dill sauce on toast points...just a break in the meat action -


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

pdx, thanks for chiming in.  I'm guilty of snoozing and dropping threads whenever someone starts to talk food science but in this case your post made a lot of sense.  I knew the bit about slow roasting prime rib at a low temperature for uniform cooking but I had never thought about why it's a good idea to sear at the end of cooking rather than at the beginning.  Definitely food for thought.


----------



## dc sunshine (Feb 26, 2007)

gonefishin said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Would I slow cook lamb chops? No, I wouldn't. I've got no idea of it works or not...but I would just stick to what works with lamb chops. Coincidentally, I made some lamb chops for the wife and I last night. Gosh are lamb chops good...I wish they were cheaper.


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_KYH, here you go for the flan;_

Chris, just wanted to let you know made your shiitake flans this evening. Fantastic!

I topped them with a mornay sauce made with parmesan, and they were perfect---not only meeting my soft-foods need, but as a side-dish that will become a regular in this household.

Thanks again for posting it.


----------



## samstinson (Oct 20, 2010)

chefedb said:


> Koukouvagia . Different strokes for different folks is correct, but as I have always said I AM NOT in a home cooking enviorment. In a commercial setting I could not serve this even just based on eye appeal. My customers would complain and go elsewhere. Home is different , a totally different mind set and thought process. We are not cooking for ourselves,or catering to our own likes and dislikes .We are cooking for the general public (our customers) and tend to listen to them. Its not that I am saying something not nice about anyone or anything.


----------



## redzuk (Dec 7, 2010)

It would be interesting to cook a prime rib at 200' and another at 325', and see what difference it made, I'm sure I've cooked them at all different temps in that range but never did a comparison.  I worked on a line where the grill was behind the carving station, really liked to take a thin slice and sear it quickly on the grill, never served it that way though.


----------



## indulgeme (Dec 28, 2010)

If you have a farberware grill with a rotisserie you can skewer a prime rib and cook it slowly.  It usually takes about 5 hours and you can season the prime rib every half hour with pepper, garlic or whatever you want and it will turn out fabulous.


----------



## brendastarshine (Aug 14, 2010)

I recall seeing Muriel Humphrey make a dish on Dinah Shore's daytime TV show ( this was 40 years ago when Hubert H was vice president)...she talked about going to a hundred endless local political eveinigs/dinners where they never really got a chance to eat, so she would put this in the oven and no matter what time they got home it was ready and fabulous and I have to say it's true..... it can stay in there all afternoon or evening if need be. i have been making it all these years..... So here goes, Minnesota Democrat home cookin'.....

HEAVILY - very heavily- use seasoned salt inside a roasting chicken cavity, add a bit of pepper. Rub the bird with lots of seasoned salt. THICKLY frost the bird with softened butter or marg - not melted. Coat it heavily with seasoned salt. < GASP. > Seriously..... you* cannot *over-salt this so just go with the flow. It will not be salty Cover tightly with sealed foil and pop in preheated 400 oven for 30-60 min. ( 60 if you have time, 30 if in a rush) Reduce heat to 200 for at least 2 hours and go to church or the beach or your kids ball game or whatever and when you come home four or six hours later you will thank Muriel for this *heavenly * bird.


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Glad you liked the flans KYH. Nice idea with the mornay on top, now I'll have to try that out too!!


----------



## siduri (Aug 13, 2006)

IndulgeMe said:


> If you have a farberware grill with a rotisserie you can skewer a prime rib and cook it slowly. It usually takes about 5 hours and you can season the prime rib every half hour with pepper, garlic or whatever you want and it will turn out fabulous.


how can you stand waiting for five full hours while you are being tantalized with the smell of roasting meat???!!!! It would be torture!


----------



## kyheirloomer (Feb 1, 2007)

_Nice idea with the mornay on top, now I'll have to try that out too!!_

I think you'll like it. The one downside is that it's white on white. So I criss-crossed each flam with strips of pimento, just for a bit of color.

Seems to me that they lend themselves to a broad selection of sauces. Between that and changing off the veggies, there's lots of room for variations on the theme.

Thanks again.


----------



## f john squirel (Jan 13, 2011)

OMG...That really looks beautiful. Havn't these people ever seen southern BBQ from old fashion smokers before...I think you did an awesome job. We have a BGE and I just loved seeing this picture. So Thank You very much. I'm learning new things all the time. I'll try this after the weather warms up just a bit and I can stand outside with the egg for awhile.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/licklips.gif


----------



## cyril-ignatius (Jan 13, 2014)

This is seriously overcooked. A nice quick searing or brazing at elevated heat is good practice and imparts unique flavors. But I think for most people most the time, you want to follow this with a longer cook at lower temperature. High heat should be used very judiciously for most roasts - it acts quickly to dry out beef, chicken and turkey.


----------



## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

My eye of round goes in the oven at 500 for 17min/lb then oven off and don't even look at that door for 2.5hrs - comes out perfect.  5# Leg of lamb - 450 for 30 min then 325 for 1.5hr - perfect.  Anything with connective tissue like shank, shoulder - working meat moist and low to break down the collagen.  Lean meat = high heat + a long rest.


----------



## teamfat (Nov 5, 2007)

I do chicken low and slow, like a couple of hours at 200 F.  Pull it out, let it rest until the oven gets up to 450 F, stick it back in to crisp up the skin.

But beef, pork loin and lamb roasts I go with high heat for the most part.

Two of the best beef dishes I remember was a prime rib many years ago.  We were working on a land survey job out in the boonies, camping on site.  About noon we seasoned the roast very well, wrapped it in about 3 or 4 layers of foil.  Stuck it in a hole in the dirt, lightly covered it with about an inch or two of dirt.  Like "stolen lamb" we then built a fire on top.  Kept the fire going while we worked until last light, maybe 8 - 8:30.  Let the fire die and dug up the beef.  It was VERY tasty.

The other was about a 3 pound chunk of beef tenderloin I did in the Weber Kettle, indirect, low heat for about an hour and a half.  Wish I had taken pictures, but it had a nice smoky crust on it, inside was rather rare, the way that myself and our vet, the guest for the meal, liked.

mjb.


----------



## alwayslistening (Nov 27, 2013)

According to a former executive chef friend of mine, and backed up by (I think) The Chemistry of Cooking, cuts of meat that have a lot of fat content/marbling (which are the more expensive ones) need high heat to get through the insulating nature of the fat.  Leaner cuts need slower cooking at lower heat to remain moist.  This jibes with most or all of the rules-of-thumb and anecdotes mentioned in this thread.  In general:

* high fat - high heat

* low fat - low heat

and of course, special / specific cases need special / specific handling.

Regarding flageolet: according to my dictionary lookups, this is a variety of the French bean haricot, related to the common bean known in English as "green bean".  Flageolets are the immature seeds, cooked and eaten as a vegetable.


----------



## tommymick (Oct 8, 2013)

Sidebar to Asoefatida:

When I was young, I dated the daughter of a _meat cutter_. He was insistent that a _meat cutter _selects, processes and prepares various meat products. A _butcher _does all that....badly. (Maybe he said it just to scare me?)

Thoughts?


----------



## dillbert (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm a fan of low and slow.

I use 235'F for poultry but 235'F for beef and 245'F for pork - as a "start" point.
which supports the idea that fat is a heat sponge - beef/pork fat melts/renders at higher temps and "warm globs of fat" don't make my meal.

it's not unusual that I need to raise the temp for "timing" purposes - i.e. started too late (oops!)

if I'm aiming for a crust and/or color, I jack up the heat at the end.  typically to 450/475'F - so I get the crust/color quickly without too much heat going into the meat.

the issue with the lamb is not unique - I've found using the low and slow method one is easily fooled into pulling the meat too soon.  obviously going low temp there's not a huge amount of carry over cooking - so I bring it right smack dab up to my "target" temp and don't fret too much if it's slightly over.

DW is a "NO PINK" person - so it's something I have to "work on"

sous vide is certainly a low&slow method - must be some value there.  
my thought is the meat not only needs to come up to the target temp, it needs to have a bit of time exposure "at the target" to avoid the dreaded pinks...  how long?  dunno, my "kitchen lab" is limited to an oven and a thermometer....


----------



## wileyp (Jul 7, 2012)

I steer away from low and slow when it comes to lean and/or tender meats. That method seems to be best for tough meats or meats with more fat and collagen and connective tissue, like brisket, shoulder, neck, tail and such. Just look at how real barbecue is done, with the worst cuts of meat but at 110°-120°C (225°-250°F.) I have had outstanding results though with prime beef rib at between 135°C and 150°C (275-300°F.)


----------



## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Have to disagree that temp doesn't matter on a prime rib. After running prime rib specials for years, the oven temperature makes a big difference on the tenderness of the rib. I had a sous chef once that was trying to short cut the prime rib by roasting it at 375. I was fielding repeated complaints from customers about how our prime rib was tough compared to other places and even compared to what ours used to be. After a couple months of ongoing complaints (not everyone was complaining, but the increase in complaints was consistent), and repeatedly discussing the quality of the beef we were buying with the exec chef, I finally asked him what temp the sous chef was roasting the meat at. He insisted it was 275. As his boss, I insisted he verify that with the sous chef. Come to find out, the sous chef was roasting it at 375 to save some time. The chef ripped his ass and corrected the problem. The complaints stopped and all was good in the world. Slow and low is not a "fad", it is a proven technique for certain cuts of meat. If there is a problem with the meat being "bland", the problem is in how its seasoned, not the cooking method. A steak doesn't get seasoned the same as a roast, anymore than it gets cooked using the same method.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

I've roasted prime rib at higher temp than that and never found it tough. Unless it's over cooking then it won't get tough.


----------



## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Try serving a couple thousand pieces cooked that way to the same crowd used to having it cooked at a lower temperature, then get back to me. You'll have a lot better sampling to draw a conclusion from.

When complaints go from 1 in a couple hundred to 1 in 20, then back to one in a couple hundred, and the only variable is the oven temperature, its a pretty compelling case that slow roasting makes a big difference.


----------



## jimmyh (Dec 10, 2013)

I suppose its worth noting that rules of thumb are not absolute.

A few years back I was carrying out some contract work for a celebrity chef in Australia called Kylie Kwong (Spelling may not be correct!)

For a main course during a function carried out in the Sydney MCA we cooked fillet of beef, slow. Very slow!! 3 hours @ 56 or so degrees, not sous vide but in a dry oven, mounted on racks to allow air circulation. Then rested for 1 hour. The beef was high quality Aus waggu, simply rubbed with a trace of olive oil. No seasoning. The result was 6 whole tenderloins looking like big poo's! But when sliced into inch thick steaks looked awesome. Perfectly cooked with the slightest of browning around the edges. Due to the marbling of the meat the lack of seasoning was compensated with pure meat flavour. I have to say it was some of the best beef I have ever eaten, served very simply with a soy based dressing and 3 asian salads packed with fresh herbs.

I have never tried it again, never had an opportunity, but you would need a high grade joint. Lean meat would not provide the flavour or moisture


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

ChrisBelgium said:


> _Siduri; "...I don't understand why to cook it slow ..."_
> 
> Well, I started this thread because there's an undeniable contemporary kitchen trend of trying to cook all meat at low temperature. It's due to all that "sous-vide" nonsense, aka vacuum packing and cooking just under 60°C. It should keep meat very tender. Cooking tender meat like lamb in the oven doesn't work for me, not even at 120°C! My experience is that tender meat comes out bland and without any taste at all when cooked at low temperatures.
> 
> I prefer to sear tender meat at high temperature in a pan first and finnish in the oven at high temperature. The meat gets an even more nicer and tastier crust. I prefer to sacrifice tenderness for taste.


chris I totally disagree with you with low temp cooked meat coming out bland without any taste.

we don't have a sous vide at work but we marinate our pork belly in vacuum bags, put it in the low oven at 54 overnight, then sear it afterwards.

it's the best pork belly I have tasted, lots of flavor.

so it is entirely possible but you have to know how.

sous vide definitely has its place but not in our kitchen. we just use the vacuum method without the water bath because vacuum packing does bring flavor in much faster.

although at home I do handle things differently, and go for the maillard reaction you are looking for. (yes in carbon steel pans!)

its a fact that in a home kitchen these days its more often done than it is in restaurants like where I work.

depending on the restaurant, it takes much more planning, as in time wise, personnel wise (how many people in the team) and space wise etc.

my last workplace did everything on a grill plate, then in the warming drawers until needed, finish in oven few mins to bring to temp.

it was bland and boring….. so all depends on whatever route you go but definitely can be done.


----------



## chrisbelgium (Oct 2, 2010)

Soesje, even if I worked in a professional kitchen, I would not cook lamb or fish on low temperature. It just doesn't taste right at all.

On the other hand, I recently found out that it works perfectly for beef. When searing beef first and finishing it in my home oven at 80°C, it comes out absolutely perfect! And, hmmm.., I also pre-warm my serving plates in the same oven at that temperature.

Then cut in slices with a little fleur de sel on top... oh yes! There's another advantage when I cook my beef at 80°C; it's not critical at all when it comes to timing. Timing can be stretched easily, which gives a good long opportunity to finish a sauce etc.


----------



## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Meat knows only temperature and how long the temperature is applied.

Meat is not smart enough to know how the heat is applied. The interior of a piece of meat cannot tell if the heat comes from broiling, frying, sous vide, baked, roasted, etc.

How high or low or slow the cooking temperature determines how even the temperature distribution inside the meat, which is governed by the specific conductivity.

dcarch


----------



## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

Meat does not react the same at any temperature. I can't even imagine how that thought makes it out of a cooks head.

Toughness in meat is derived from several proteins, such as actin, myosin and collagen, that combined form the structure of the muscle tissue. Heating these proteins causes them to denature, or break down into other substances, which in turn changes the structure and texture of meat, usually reducing its toughness and making it more tender. This typically happens between 55 °C and 65 °C (131 °F and 149 °F) over an extended period of time.

The trick with breaking down these proteins is that its not just temperature that does the job. It also takes time. When you cook a piece of meat at a higher temperature, you have to stop it before the proteins have time to break down so you don't overcook it. The result is a piece of meat that is tough. To break those proteins down and make it tender, you have to cook it at a high enough temp to break them down, long enough to break them down, but not so long or hot that the meat dries out. You can also introduce liquid back into the meat via methods like braising.


----------



## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Brandon ODell said:


> Your pot roast must be fantastic. The laws of physics don't cease to exist simply by declaring something authoritatively. Meat does not react the same at any temperature. I can't even imagine how that thought makes it out of a cooks head.
> 
> Toughness in meat is derived from several proteins, such as actin, myosin and collagen, that combined form the structure of the muscle tissue. Heating these proteins causes them to denature, or break down into other substances, which in turn changes the structure and texture of meat, usually reducing its toughness and making it more tender. This typically happens between 55 °C and 65 °C (131 °F and 149 °F) over an extended period of time.
> 
> The trick with breaking down these proteins is that its not just temperature that does the job. It also takes time. When you cook a piece of meat at a higher temperature, you have to stop it before the proteins have time to break down so you don't overcook it. The result is a piece of meat that is tough. To break those proteins down and make it tender, you have to cook it at a high enough temp to break them down, long enough to break them down, but not so long that the meat dries out. You can also introduce liquid back into the meat via methods like braising.


Exactly what I said!

Thanks for elaborating.

dcarch


----------



## brandon odell (Aug 19, 2012)

After rereading it, I think I read more into your post than you typed.


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

chris we don't do this to fish or lamb. we do it with our pork (vacuum packed) and with our beef ribeyes (not vacuum packed).

we sure don't think that we should use it for everything.

all things have their place, so does sous vide but I'm no fan.

the method we are using at work is also no sous vide, its low temp cooking to do exactly as is described in the post by Brandon Odell.

exactly the temps we are using 

well does it matter at all.

it's just food.

lets have fun with it.


----------



## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

Jimmyh said:


> I suppose its worth noting that rules of thumb are not absolute.


ABSOLUTELY!









Tandoor

Jerky

Opposite ends of the temperature spectrum.

Flank steak can be delicious prepared in both styles.


> Your idea of that dish has evolved, and if you're a cook, you can start thinking in different ways about it, maybe even a different way than I think about it.





> Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a tomato doesn't belong in a fruit salad


----------



## soesje (Dec 6, 2012)

rules of thumb are just that…… like recipes, open to your own interpretation and understanding….


----------



## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

A couple other exceptions would be Kalbi (short ribs cooked hot and fast) and at the other end of the spectrum, poached filet mignon (filet de boeuf a la ficelle). 

I've also cooked lamb and pork shoulders over hot/fast fires very successfully, both cubed in skewers and whole.


----------



## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Jimmyh* 

"I suppose its worth noting that rules of thumb are not absolute."

And the reason is because we all have different size thumbs. 

dcarch


----------



## cheffred (Aug 25, 2014)

Sorry,I know I am  late on this post but

that meat has too much char on it.

Maybe good for you and the family but not for paying customers.


----------



## farmerbrown (Jun 13, 2015)

A pork butt should only be cooked low and slow.  I put it in a 185F smoker or oven for a full 24 hours.  The fat completely renders and seeps through the meat.  The surface gets almost...puffy.  I put it right on the rack, no pan.  At the end of 24 hours, I need a spatula to pick it up.

It really does not need any spices, although you can use whatever you want.  The flavor of the pork is so intense using this method, anything else tastes like an adulterant.  This is all about the fat, though.  Lean meat is killed by this.  Put a drip pan under to catch the 1/2 - 3/4 C of fat that comes through.

The best brisket I ever had was this past week in Sturbridge Mass, of all places.  It is B.T. Smokehouse, and he cooks his brisket for 22-24 hours.  It is astonishing.


----------



## french fries (Sep 5, 2008)

FarmerBrown said:


> A pork butt should only be cooked low and slow.


There's no should in shoulder. Huh... wait... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif! But anyway, I've grilled pork butts high and fast, either diced and on skewers, or sliced as 1/2" steaks, and it is DELICIOUS. Try it sometimes, you'l be surprised!


----------



## nate (Aug 2, 2014)

Low and slow is the way I go. A big benefit is increased yields, so more servings per roast, meaning more money per roast.





  








Rib roast




__
nate


__
Jun 23, 2015


----------



## dcarch (Jun 28, 2010)

Nate said:


> Low and slow is the way I go. A big benefit is increased yields, so more servings per roast, meaning more money per roast.


Not true.

Low and slow will result in less shrinkage, therefore less waste. (5%+ - ?) .

Less waste yes, which is not the same as increased yield. Increased yield means more than you start out with. ( /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif )

dcarch


----------



## nate (Aug 2, 2014)

dcarch said:


> Not true.
> 
> Low and slow will result in less shrinkage, therefore less waste. (5%+ - ?) .
> 
> ...


*Touche!*





  








burn.JPG




__
nate


__
Jun 23, 2015


----------



## metronome (Feb 12, 2015)

View media item 111981
Prime Rib done in a SmokinTex. Using the unit as an oven (no wood), slow roasted to 118 internal. Don't need to sear as the heavy application of kosher sals, season salt, cracked BP, garlic powder, cayenne, and a LOT of herbs de provence.




  








CIMG0214_0803.JPG




__
metronome


__
Jun 24, 2015


----------



## cookware sets (Apr 10, 2015)

Cooking meat at low temperature is not easy. My experience with that is as follows:
Depending what meat, say for example lamb and beef. First I use a frypan. Heat up the pan, add some oil, not to much and seal the meat first until you have a light brown colour. The pan needs to be hot. After remove the meat out of the pan. The temperature in the oven is up to you but for arguments sake let's use 120 degrees Celsius. Make sure the oven is on the correct heat before you place the meat in the oven. Depending if you want your meat rare, medium rare or medium well. Using a temperature probe is a good way to monitor the core temperature. 
I use the same principal when I make a pork roast. How ever I want my pork roast well done. In that case I pre- seal the roast first and then I cook or roast the pork roast by 150 degrees Celsius until the core temperature reaches 65 degrees Celsius. Cooking pork roast on low heat will make your roast real tender and the flavour is great. The cooking time is longer but it is worth it the wait.
One more important point. Once your roast is ready or your lamb racks or steaks, remove them from the oven and let the meat rest covered with foil for 10 to 15 minutes before you slice the roast or serve the steaks or lamb racks. When the meat comes out of the oven it is still cooking and there is a pressure build up in the meat. When you cut the meat to early, all the juices run out and renders your roast dry.
I hope you will benefit from my advice and remember, you may need to try a few times until it works for you.


----------



## farmerbrown (Jun 13, 2015)

cookware sets said:


> Cooking meat at low temperature is not easy. My experience with that is as follows:
> The temperature in the oven is up to you but for arguments sake let's use 120 degrees Celsius.


Not to be argumentative, but 120C is not cooking at low temperature. Low temp for me ends around 105C, and that only if you are cooking for shorter time (8 hours) and something very fatty like short ribs. For short ribs I will go 105-107C for 8 hours. For Pork Butt or Brisket, 20-24 hours at 85C. For bone-in rib roasts, 80-90C for as long as it takes to be 125-130. If it is hot enough to boil the water and make steam, it is too hot for a lot of slow cook meats.

The nice thing about slow cooking for rare or medium rare beef is it has no momentum. If you cook at 350F, you pull at 110-115 and let it coast. This is pretty imprecise. At 175-185F, you pull it at the temp you want it and the temp pretty much holds in place. It also gives all that fat a lot more time to render. Try a bone in rib roast at 175F (80C) and see how you like it.


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Opinions... everyone has one and yet we all make a killer roast.


----------



## steve tphc (Sep 18, 2012)

Hey everything started out well.

We all had several beers then opened a nice red wine.

I preheated the grill to a low 250F. The roast went on the top rack so to get indirect heat only.

Somewhere between a third or fourth glass of enjoyable wine, the grandson must of been playing with the burner controls.

When we check the roast next it seemed a little over done.

Here is the photo.





  








lump_of_coal.jpg




__
steve tphc


__
Jun 26, 2015








We could not cut it with a chain saw.

What the heck, we had some more wine.

No one seemed to notice. ha ha


----------



## kinza (Aug 24, 2015)

yes, and it tastes good too.


----------



## red irish (Nov 19, 2015)

So reading this article, gives me some insight. But my question is, would 250° bea adequate temperature to slow cook boneless pork chops?


Koukouvagia said:


> There are certain meats that should not be cooked in a low temp in the oven and rack of lamb is definitely one of those. It's such a tender meat anyway why would you need it to be any softer? My rule of thumb is the pricier the meat, the higher the heat. The lower the price, low slow cooking makes it nice. (I just made that up! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif
> )
> 
> When it comes to tender cuts like tenderloins, prime rib, rack of lamb etc you want a nice crisp outside and reddish tender inside. There is only one way to achieve this and that is to sear it before it goes into the oven. I rub with olive oil, salt pepper and sear on all sides. Then I season it with other flavorings and continue cooking in the oven. There is a large portion of the population that believes that you should just place the meat in a very high oven for 15-30 minutes in the beginning to get a sear on the outside and then turn the oven down for the remainder of cooking but I say bahumbug to that! That's only a poor imitation of a sear. If you want a good color on the outside just sear it then pop it in the oven.
> ...


----------



## koukouvagia (Apr 3, 2008)

Red Irish said:


> So reading this article, gives me some insight. But my question is, would 250° bea adequate temperature to slow cook boneless pork chops?


I do not cool boneless pork chops in the oven. Pan fry until medium.


----------



## tzvika (Sep 7, 2012)

ChrisBelgium said:


> What about cooking meat at low temperature in the oven? I'm so done with it!
> Look at the picture below. I nicely seared a rack of lamb in a pan, then continued in the oven at 120°C(248°F), using a meat thermometer set at 58°C(136°F). I haven't timed it exactly, but I guess it took around 30 minutes to get there.
> 
> When cut, the meat was warmed through perfectly, but still looked almost raw.
> ...


The reason the meet what lack of flavor, they have nothing to do with the way of cooking, and even you seasoned it well, the flavors didn't manage to infiltrate into the meet core, for they you need make a brine.
The other thing is the reaction of the meet surface while cooking it. Play right with the tempreture and time and you'll manage it ferffectly.
Don't give up on you patients.


----------

