# Restaurant Concept Where Cooks Earn $20/Hr



## maxs (Oct 29, 2012)

I recently sold a 32 seat restaurant in New England. My small staff of cooks was earning between $16 and $18 per hour. I want to open another restaurant with about 100 seat. I only want to do this if I can pay my guys a living wage: starting at $15/hour and going up to $20 or more plus benefits. The only catch is that I want to make good money too! 

I would love to show the world that cooks can be compensated decently...that they can make what they deserve (or close to it). Obviously I would need to keep costs down. Unfortunately rents, mortgages, and utilities are very expensive in these parts. The only way I can see to shave percentage points off of expenses is to use inexpensive (not cheap) ingredients. For example onion soup; potato and leek soup; fried chicken, arancini, etc.

Am I in a dream world?

Any suggestions?


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

The model to explore would be a no tipping restaurant, charging a service fee, then distributing that as you see fit among the staff. A lot of higher end restaurants are doing this in order to do exactly what you want...to tighten the gap between BoH and FoH pay. 

You should crunch some numbers re: your expected Check average, your service fee, the amount of staff you will need, expected covers, etc. 

$20 an hour is a lot tho. That is like sous chef salary money.


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## maxs (Oct 29, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I had thought about the no tipping scenario, but I don't see how adding 20% to checks would allow me to not only pay the cooks a highert wage, but also raise servers wages from $3.25/hr to $15/hr.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I think it would take a well versed Chef to structure a kitchen and dining room to pay people more. When I took over other operations in my business I was amazed at how much labor I could cut, in most case 50%. All of the operations were heavy in labor. If someone wants to pay more $$$, things have to be done better. The kitchen has to be designed so as to accomplish the menu and all prep with less people. The restaurant that operates with 20 employees now has to be structured to operate with 10 employees. I think your going to see this happen with the new $15 Min wage. Your going to see a lot of change in how things get done in restaurants. Service will be a thing of the past, although I think it's not even close to what it used to be. In most places service is just a delivery service from the from line to the table. If I were to take your idea and structure it in a fine dining restaurant so employees could make more money. I would use my wait staff as contract labor and have them buy into a section. In other words I would have them pay me for a section. They work and give service for tips only no wages. The server would be leasing the section of the restaurant under the conditions of first class service establishing a clientele that would return and ask for their service. If more Chefs were working the kitchen it could run a much lower labor cost. The Chef needs to hire labor when it's needed and also structure the menu as to keep less prep. Your not making money unless your selling food. A large amount of prep is wasting a lot of money that can't be made up. The reason why there are so many employees is in most cases to fail safe the operation. If you want to make change you need to do things different. Most employers learn it, see it, then make it the same in their own operation. You need to look at a business and figure a way to think how it can be done efficiently. I always told my managers to schedule employees like they were taking a $10 bill out of there pocket and paying them every hour for the work they did. After a few hours of doing that, make sure you can look back and be happy that the money was well spent. Your idea of paying more is more involved than I can cover in this site.........Good luck.........Chef Bill


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm kinda in agreement with chefbill on this.

I also have encountered very fierce opposition when I charged a service fee in my catering biz, customers and servers took it to the labour board. Being a Canuck, I profess ignorance to your states' labour laws, but wasn't it Calif. that declared any tips were the sole benifit of the waiter?

If you want fair wages for cooks you need a national gov't recognized standard/qualification, like almost every other trade and profession has.....,


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

MaxS said:


> I don't see how adding 20% to checks would allow me to not only pay the cooks a highert wage,


How could increasing your sales 20%, not free up money to be applied to cooks. How many cooks worked in your 32 seat restaurant? How many covers were you doing? Just dinner, or lunch and dinner, or breakfast, lunch, and dinner? How many days a week?


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## meezenplaz (Jan 31, 2012)

@foodpump, yes i believe here in calif that by law, the minute
that money hits the table, the intened recipient is assumed
to be the server, prohibting, by law, management from
confiscating it and doling out to their own liking.
A customer can however request the manager give a tip
to cooks, bussers etc, which tecnically makes it unclaimable
by the server, but with a cash tip thats hard to ensure.
Ive often had horrid service by servet, only to have a 
busser fill the gap and save the day. I have handed tips
directly to the busser "this is for you only" only to 
discover later the managers "policy" was even bussers tips
must be surrendered to the server despite them being a 
bitchstard.

Personally i think rather than do away with tipping 
(a very ingrained cultural habit) one should focus on 
incresing sales and profit, encouraging cooks tob
help with that, then award a year-end or semi annual 
bonus to the cooks based on the end result.


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## seph (May 7, 2016)

@MaxS just move to Australia. If you aren't on a salary full-time employees are on over $20/h minimum wage, more if the business can accomodate for it.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

seph said:


> @MaxS just move to Australia. If you aren't on a salary full-time employees are on over $20/h minimum wage, more if the business can accomodate for it.


Oh sweet! Just move to Australia everyone...problem solved. Close the entire forum. Any more questions we now have the answer. ChefTalk=done.

"Which culinary school should I go to?" <--Just move to Australia

"Which job should I take?" <--- Is it in Australia? Trick question, take a job in Australia.

Easy!


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## seph (May 7, 2016)

Someday said:


> Oh sweet! Just move to Australia everyone...problem solved. Close the entire forum. Any more questions we now have the answer. ChefTalk=done.
> 
> "Which culinary school should I go to?" <--Just move to Australia
> 
> ...


Exactly! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif

But seriously. Entry level Chefs are on roughly $24/h here, roughly 50-60K a year. I am wondering where the differences are in food/electricity/running costs and also cost of living. The whole servers getting minimum $3.25/h and having to rely on tips baffles me as to how they can afford to live.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

This is a great topic and something that will be increasingly important as time goes on. For better or worse there's a lot of momentum in the "living wage movement". It's pretty hard to get good help, I mean really stellar workers that take ownership of their jobs, if you're not paying them enough to survive and thrive. Yet people that want to feel good knowing their server and cooks are being fairly paid still often balk at paying more for their food. I think Bill and Foodpump hit it on the head: If you want to pay your staff well you have to cut all the fat out of the operation.

I struggle with this in my [very crappy] labor market. Aside from my Sous I'm the only person in the building that can cook a steak to temp. There is just zero culinary talent in my small town, and of course the Sous and I are transplants. It's challenging to execute the kind of food we try to do with the level of help we have. Hard to keep labor low sometimes when few of the cooks can hold down a station by themselves.

To pay well you need to keep minimal staff, and they have to have that ownership mentality towards their duties.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

I think a lot of it begins with our food system in general. People (Americans) expect GIANT f***ing portions of food on their plate for like 10 bucks. They want doggie bags. They want to eat their "cajun penne chicken pasta" that they got for 8.95 for 3 meals. Its like, a pound of food. 

People SHOULD pay more for food. Actually, people should pay more for meat and LESS for fresh vegetables and fruit. In a country where you can get a hamburger for $1 and not an apple, something is seriously wrong. 

All that cheap, commodity, subsidized meat product needs to go. I truly think that, a good start, would be to using less protein and/or meat as an accent instead of the "center plate" mentality (think most Asian cuisines) is the wave of the future. Our food system isn't really sustainable much longer--I mean crap, look at the state of the oceans--to keep eating the way we do. Not to mention our health as an aggregate. 

I've heard that is the #1 thing people from other countries can't believe when they come to the USA...how cheap the food is and how much of it you get. 

I dunno, the two things are kind of loosely related, but increasing the price of food and lowering the portion cost would be a good start toward a paradigm shift this country needs to create a sustainable food related workforce, from farmer to server to chef. 

But I mean, I die a little inside every time I serve handmade pappardelle pasta with an hours-long simmered bolognese, real Parmigiano cheese, etc and the "portion is too small." I mean, you just ate an amuse bouche, and appetizer, and 120g pasta serving (without sauce) and its "too small?"

Do I really have to feel like I need to portion my over-nighted Alaskan halibut at 8oz because the local Applebees gives you 8oz of fried haddock or pollack or whatever? Is it too small at 5-6oz?

Ugh, sorry. Got a little off topic.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

/\ Exactly! What's the point of having a $15 minimum wage for people flipping burgers at In N Out or frying French fries ; or line/prep cooks working at higher end restaurants who have no greater skill set than the burger flippers at McD's...?

We need to figure out how to pay the relatively skilled BOH, but not making a system where you're paid $15, $16 an hour simply for showing up and holding a knife or spatula.

And yes, the U.S. spends less on food than any other industrialized country in the world. It is not how it should be at all.
You are correct, people expect a lot for little money. Why? Because the majority of people are simply lazy.
1$ cheeseburgers are absolutely part of the problem. And now it's something Americans expect. 
Again, we are lazy. People here do not want to put in the effort needed to sustain a country where most of the food is not filled with unhealthy additives. Its not something I enjoy saying, but it is a shame how lazy people are...


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

seph said:


> Exactly! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smiles.gif
> 
> But seriously. Entry level Chefs are on roughly $24/h here, roughly 50-60K a year. I am wondering where the differences are in food/electricity/running costs and also cost of living. The whole servers getting minimum $3.25/h and having to rely on tips baffles me as to how they can afford to live.


Thats a nice wage, I agree. Maybe I'll look into it 

When you say chef, do you mean a cook on the line or someone who runs a kitchen?

As far as servers go, the 3.25 an hour (or less in some areas) sucks. They rely almost exclusively on tips, but since, in the USA, EVERYONE is expected to tip 15-20% for the server (unless something goes horribly wrong) on every check, it usually means a living wage for the server, at minimum. Many places the servers do really well.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

rndmchef said:


> /\ Exactly! What's the point of having a $15 minimum wage for people flipping burgers at In N Out or frying French fries ; or line/prep cooks working at higher end restaurants who have no greater skill set than the burger flippers at McD's...?
> 
> We need to figure out how to pay the relatively skilled BOH, but not making a system where you're paid $15, $16 an hour simply for showing up and holding a knife or spatula.


I dunno, I kind of disagree. Some people have this idea that somehow "burger flippers" don't deserve a living wage.... I can't get behind that. I think that ANYONE that shoes up for a job and does a decent job for full time work deserves a livable wage, from burger flippers to nannies to whomever. And yeah, it's not putting together plates at Alinea or Per Se, but it can still be honest hard work and does require a certain set of skills to accomplish. This subset that people seem to detest to much includes a HUGE portion of the industry--short order cooks, sandwich makers, etc. You try working the plate at a (good) diner or Waffle House and tell me it doesn't take skill.

The fact remains, $8 an hour ISN'T a livable wage for ANYONE, and anyone that works for a living shouldn't have to put up with it. This is the freaking USA, I don't know when we stopped caring about each other but I hope it turns around soon.

And yeah, part of the problem is people don't want to pay more than $2 for a BigMac. Even though they should. Again, a BigMac is cheaper than a bag of spinach.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

I take issue with tipping the server15-20%

, 20% of what?

20%of the ENTIRE BILL

In other words, the entire dining experience.

Now the server works hard, no doubt there. Thing is, EVERYONE woks hard, and no single person is responsible for the entire experience.

Wrong mentality, but things change. like spitting in public places, hotels and bars had spitoons and cuspidors oncce upon a time, Women weren't allowed to vote, once upon a time.

The mentality about tipping 20% to a server for your meal has to go the way of the spitoon.....


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I was born and raised in IL where the minimum wage for servers is 3$ or so.... I worked in multiple bars/restaurants, servers might make less than the cooks per hour 2-3 times a month, at most. Unless the place is really slow always and the place is over-staffing FOH; but I've never seen that honestly.



Someday said:


> I dunno, I kind of disagree. Some people have this idea that somehow "burger flippers" don't deserve a living wage.... I can't get behind that. I think that ANYONE that shoes up for a job and does a decent job for full time work deserves a livable wage, from burger flippers to nannies to whomever. And yeah, it's not putting together plates at Alinea or Per Se, but it can still be honest hard work and does require a certain set of skills to accomplish. This subset that people seem to detest to much includes a HUGE portion of the industry--short order cooks, sandwich makers, etc. You try working the plate at a (good) diner or Waffle House and tell me it doesn't take skill.
> 
> The fact remains, $8 an hour ISN'T a livable wage for ANYONE, and anyone that works for a living shouldn't have to put up with it.


Who expects a living wage working at a restaurant as a basic line cook 35-40 hours a week? Most line cooks don't even work 40 hours or certainly not much more. I agree one should be able to earn a living wage working 2 line cook jobs, 6 days a week 40 hours at each and showing more than basic skills. Showing up on time to work does not take any skill. None. Showing up with a good attitude and the desire to do a good job also does not take skill. Remembering 5 or 6 different tickets, temperatures, and presenting your food well while also using proper techniques, time management, sanitation standards and seasoning to put food on the plate that tastes good, looks good and in a reasonable amount of time ..... That takes some skill. It's FAR from rocket science, but it's something that should be paid for, unlike showing up to Buffalo Wild Wings on time everyday, dropping wings in a fryer and expecting $12 an hour.

Sorry, it's hard to have too much compassion when I see my 22 year old female friend working 2 line cook jobs, 7 days a week, starting at 3 am and ending at 10pm, with one day where she can sleep in a little bit, she's got as much cooking skill as any line cook I've seen. She's never once complained about her wages. And she certainly did not start out at 15$ or $20 an hour.
A living wage is something that comes with working at a level that is equal to supporting your life. Working at your local fancy restaurant 35-40 hours a week is not going to be enough to support a living unless your living in Alaska or somewhere where it's really cheap to live. One must actually possess real skills, experience and ability and then put in enough time every week in order to support their living. Again, showing up on time is not a skill, even if you live in NYC. People being paid 50k, 75k, 100k $ in other industries posses real skills. 
The reason this industry doesn't have great wages to begin with is because this used to be an industry that was reserved for the lower class or less skilled people...

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-spends-less-food-any-other-country-world-maps-1546945


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## seph (May 7, 2016)

Someday said:


> Thats a nice wage, I agree. Maybe I'll look into it
> 
> When you say chef, do you mean a cook on the line or someone who runs a kitchen?
> 
> As far as servers go, the 3.25 an hour (or less in some areas) sucks. They rely almost exclusively on tips, but since, in the USA, EVERYONE is expected to tip 15-20% for the server (unless something goes horribly wrong) on every check, it usually means a living wage for the server, at minimum. Many places the servers do really well.


Kitchens here generally have the full brigade system in place. Cooks are chefs without qualifications, paid roughly $2 less. Then entry level 'chef' is commis, then Demi so on and so forth. Provided you have a qualification you're a chef, might not be 'The Chef' or 'Chef' but it shows you're qualified.

Generally no one tips here unless it's exceptional in some way. At my current workplace it's better wages to work as a server, $28 an hour or something ridiculous.

After a quick google of the menus of Outback Steakhouse in America and Australia, a 9oz sirloin in America is $16.99, while here it's $27.99. Throw in a conversion and it's a difference of about $4, not a huge difference but that's the same company. Go to a different steakhouse restaurant here and get a 7oz sirloin for somewhere around $30


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## chefross (May 5, 2010)

Couple things to point out here.

Australia dollar versus the American dollar. What's $10.00/hr. Australian in American dollars?

Another item that has a lot to do with food costs are purchasing and serving fruits and vegetables out of season.

With the advent of technology, we are now able to offer things like asparagus, grapes, tomatoes, and such, which use resources that make these items costly.

The alternative would be to go back to the time when these items are only offered on menus when they are in season.

The idea that trimming labor must also go along with reviewing the menu to match.

Keeping the same menu year after year with the same prep needed but with 50% less labor may make you, as the owner, happy that you were able to cut it,

and then you'd now feel your employees are actually working for their new wage, but it might have an adverse effect. 

Instead of 10 cooks, now you have 5 doing the same work.  Human nature being what it is, you might find a mutiny on your hands.


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

I think it should be noted that the minimum wage has NOT increased with the cost of living. Since around 1980, cost of living has increased something like 65%. Minimum wage has not. Not even close. Raising it to $15 will make up for decades of abuse, even for burger flippers. There are scores of people that think $15. hr is too much to pay a teenager for a summer job. Many people just think you don't _deserve_ that much money, regardless of the cost of living. I've had people tell me that if you are 30 and still working at a fast food restaurant (in any capacity other than a franchise owner) then you are an idiot and haven't made the right "choices." Keeping the wage down is ideology and ideology alone.

It should also be noted that here in the USA, the poverty level is around $17K per year for an individual. As long as you are above that, you aren't considered in "poverty." Anybody tried having a life making $20K a year? The legislative policy and the cultural acceptance of the abuse of labor is the problem.

Since the 1980's, the economy has been service based. Financial services rules the roost, and the other service sectors (hotels, food and beverage, etc) has been squeezed to reflect how people feel about white collar vs blue collar jobs. Manufacturing used to be king, and the middle class grew. You could actually have a decent life working at the mill or wherever, doing a job that wasn't that much more skilled than flipping burgers and have money for children and home ownership.

I'm not a pro, but spent enough time in a commercial kitchen to appreciate the work. Line cooks pumping out 200 covers a night at a white table cloth restaurants work their asses off. They deserve to be adequately compensated for their work. Servers play a large part in that dining "experience" and should also be compensated. I don't have the solution but it isn't eliminating labor and/ or the culturally engrained tipping system.

Lastly, I agree completely that ANY business needs to streamline their operation to eliminate waste and aim for efficiency. That doesn't mean labor should suffer. But I get a kick out of the saying "cut the fat" yet fat is a vital component in what gives meat it's flavor.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Uh Jake, everything made sense up to the part about NOT changing the culturally engrained tipping system.

As a Canuck, I understand that the US is divided into right to work states, and non roght to work states. 

The right to work states have "tipping wages" which can be as low as $3/hr. So the question is, who lobboed for tipping wages, and what went through the minds of politicians when they decided it was "ok" to ignore minimum wage?


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## jake t buds (May 27, 2013)

Let me clarify, foodpump. I don't think removing the tipping system will be widely implemented, and won't be legislated. And many will adopt it and abuse it. Some will add 18-23% service fee, and then increase the wages by a few percentage points, and pocket the rest as profit. In addition to laying off workers, which has been used as a threat by those that oppose raising the minimum wage. Don't get me wrong. There are many owner - operators that genuinely want to pay a higher wage. And will. But as with anything else, capitalism will find a way to abuse and subvert mandated policy/ morality.

I believe you should be able to tip, but it should be in the European model. A token coin or two, _depending on the venue_, as an appreciative gift. It says I like what you did for me, above and beyond _just doing your job_. Sometimes that just means the change leftover. Waitstaff interact with the public. Courtesies above the normal should be recognized. However, that doesn't mean I think one should be dependent on tips. I believe in a living wage no matter what. The tipping system has been blown way out of proportion as a politically correct way of shifting responsibility from the employer to the customer.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Okay, I suppose this has me in full-Socialist-rant-mode!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif I think everyone that actually works hard for 40 hours deserves a living wage. Our society has a very fucked up sense of values. I'm sure a golfer puts in a lot of work to get as good as Jordan Spieth but c'mon- what kind of civilization find whacking a ball into a hole to be 500x more valuable than a nurse? Or fireman? Wall Street flacks have found ways to insert code basically into the financial system that generates no value whatsoever for society but allows them to skim billions of dollars out of it for themselves. If everyone in a civilization works to advance society then I feel everyone should benefit almost equally from it.

Tipping is the worst. It literally makes no sense. At the worst extremes you have servers that bust their asses working a ten top anniversary dinner for a couple hours only to get stiffed and take $10 out of it. And you have a server taking home $300 for the same level of service even if an expo racks up the food, a captain delivers it and a busser clears it all away. And you have customers lording over it, deciding if the server will make enough money to cover his bills. Or an owner letting the customer pick up the slack so she doesn't have to pay a living way.

Okay, full-Socialist-rant/off.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Jake,


The thing with the Euopean model is that they have qualifications, for cooks, for bakers, butchers, and yes, waiters too. Its usually a two year apprenticeship for servers. In other words, the industry is regulated, not only for the trades, but for restauranteurs as well, you need a license for this, and this means aprox. 3-4mths of courses and exams. In N. America any idiot can open a restaurant and this is a major part of the problem

Sooner or later you are faced with the simple logic that if you want decent wages for hospitality workers, you are going to have to regulate the industry. 

Food is a part--albeit a very important part of the tourisim and hospitality industry. And this industry contibutes enormously to the local and nations economy. The ones who will finaly regulate this industry are the ones who understand that in order to be sustainable, you need regulations.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

foodpump said:


> Uh Jake, everything made sense up to the part about NOT changing the culturally engrained tipping system.
> 
> As a Canuck, I understand that the US is divided into right to work states, and non roght to work states.
> 
> The right to work states have "tipping wages" which can be as low as $3/hr. So the question is, who lobboed for tipping wages, and what went through the minds of politicians when they decided it was "ok" to ignore minimum wage?


Right to work states do NOT have tipping wages. 
Right to work laws are about unions... Not tipping wages...

Why would a state pass a law that says a restaurant can pay somebody $3 an hour in 2016? Because 95% of the time that individual shows up to work, they're taking home considerably more than the minimum wage. I was born and raised in IL where the minimum wage for servers is still about $3; never have I seen or heard of a server complaining they don't make enough money.... The same can not be said about BOH...

Not to mention, taking home cash everynight is MUCH more financially stable than receiving all your wages just twice a month. I've had multiple times where I'm paying either my bank for overdraft fees or my apartment for being late on rent because I didn't get my paycheck for a day or two after rent was due. Bank charges $20 and apartment charges $50 for being even one day late.. Therefore, I'm making even less money at the end of the month due to only being paid twice a month and not having the luxury of receiving my money everyday like a server...


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I don't know about you chefs/cooks but I have many burns and cuts from doing my job BOH... Something the FOH does not experience. 
Bartenders are also paid significantly more than cooks at the end of the day. 
Bussers make more than cooks almost all the time as well. 
Given the fact the cooks are the ones actually producing the food that people have come to the restaurant to eat and sacrificing their body in the process, the cooks should be making the most $ but they're almost always making the least. The system is 100% backwards and quite frankly I've lost most all hope ... Just open your own place, work your ass off, and do enough business to pay yourself a decent wage. Don't really on other bad restaurant owners.

And yes tipping is out of control... I am now being prompted to tip when I order takeout. The local fried chicken place has a computer where you will sign for credit cards and the first thing it asks you is 10%, 15% or 20% tip ? Or you have the option for no tip at the very bottom. I've been given nasty looks at pressing no tip.
Given the fact that the cooks are the ones putting the food in the box and any sauces usually. The cooks won't be given the tip so why should I tip on my fried chicken or Chinese take out? Unless they really do something above and beyond, youre simply doing your job and us cooks don't get tipped for that...


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

rndmchef said:


> I was born and raised in IL where the minimum wage for servers is 3$ or so.... I worked in multiple bars/restaurants, servers might make less than the cooks per hour 2-3 times a month, at most. Unless the place is really slow always and the place is over-staffing FOH; but I've never seen that honestly.
> Who expects a living wage working at a restaurant as a basic line cook 35-40 hours a week? Most line cooks don't even work 40 hours or certainly not much more. I agree one should be able to earn a living wage working 2 line cook jobs, 6 days a week 40 hours at each and showing more than basic skills. Showing up on time to work does not take any skill. None. Showing up with a good attitude and the desire to do a good job also does not take skill. Remembering 5 or 6 different tickets, temperatures, and presenting your food well while also using proper techniques, time management, sanitation standards and seasoning to put food on the plate that tastes good, looks good and in a reasonable amount of time ..... That takes some skill. It's FAR from rocket science, but it's something that should be paid for, unlike showing up to Buffalo Wild Wings on time everyday, dropping wings in a fryer and expecting $12 an hour.
> 
> Sorry, it's hard to have too much compassion when I see my 22 year old female friend working 2 line cook jobs, 7 days a week, starting at 3 am and ending at 10pm, with one day where she can sleep in a little bit, she's got as much cooking skill as any line cook I've seen. She's never once complained about her wages. And she certainly did not start out at 15$ or $20 an hour.


Oh man.

Putting worth on a human being based on their job is a slippery slope. I feel like you are venturing into that territory. Again, I say that anyone who works a full time job deserves, at minimum, a livable wage. That includes people at Buffalo Wild Wings and your fine dining line cook friend. I think that categorizing someone who works at BWW as "just dunking wings in the fryer" shows a total lack of respect. The food industry takes all kinds of people cooking in all different styles and levels, to be successful. Minimizing anyone for working at BWW or anyplace else smacks of elitism and is the exact opposite of the attitude we need (we meaning the food industry) to become more professional and start to fix some of the wage problems.

A badass short order cook working at a diner is a thing of beauty to watch. Maybe you see some 25 year old burnout who has a shitty job cause he/she couldn't get a better one. I see a person who is struggling to survive, any way they can. Why is there shame in working at a place like BWW? Sure, it's not Michelin starred....but why is someone doing an honest days work, making wings, making burgers, chopping onions, taking out trash, doing dishes, mopping floors, scrubbing counters..why is that something to sneer at? On ANY level? Why is that something to be ashamed of?

The minute you start thinking you are better than someone because you work at a fancy place rather than a diner or whatever, we lose for the whole industry.

I don't understand your "hard to have compassion" comment since your friend is someone who seems to be the perfect example of what I am talking about. She shouldn't have to work 7 days a week, 80 hours, etc in order to make ends meet. Are you trying to say that, since she has to work two jobs and is a skilled professional in her field, that everyone "below her" shouldn't make a livable wage? I don't understand that logic at all.

I mean, why doesn't your friend just quit her job, go to college, become a stock broker, and make millions? If she doesn't do that, she must be a lazy POS.

But again, I'll say it--anyone that works full time for a living should make, at minimum, a livable wage. I don't see how anyone can argue that point. I'm talking gardeners, janitors, car mechanics, nannies, cooks, anyone. 


> A living wage is something that comes with working at a level that is equal to supporting your life. Working at your local fancy restaurant 35-40 hours a week is not going to be enough to support a living unless your living in Alaska or somewhere where it's really cheap to live. One must actually possess real skills, experience and ability and then put in enough time every week in order to support their living. Again, showing up on time is not a skill, even if you live in NYC. People being paid 50k, 75k, 100k $ in other industries posses real skills.
> The reason this industry doesn't have great wages to begin with is because this used to be an industry that was reserved for the lower class or less skilled people...
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/us-spends-less-food-any-other-country-world-maps-1546945


You lost me a bit here. You are right, working 35-40 hours a week at a fancy restaurant probably won't pay all your bills. That is what I am talking about--it SHOULD be enough to cover all your bills.

And I don't get this notion of "no skill" labor either. The fact is, America has a huge force of "unskilled" workers. In fact, the country NEEDS unskilled workers...they drive our cabs, pick up garbage, clean our homes and businesses, watch our kids, cook our food, do labor, etc. This country needs all those people. (just to clarify, if I need to, I'm not using unskilled in a negative way). Used to be, years ago, that all you needed to earn a nice middle class income was a high school degree and a job in a factory making airplane parts or cars or whatever. Does that take "skill?" To pull a lever so that a block of metal gets shaped into a door or whatever? You going to tell me that some guy bolting a door onto a Ford Tauras 1000x a day is "skilled?"

A whole generation of Americans made nice lives for themselves doing that kind of work. Most of those jobs are no longer there for the taking (they are in China, SE Asia, India, Bangladesh, etc) so "unskilled" people have been relegated to service industries (i.e. restaurants/bars/etc), retail, and the "menial" jobs that we still need people to do, yet somehow look down on people for doing it (trash collectors, taxi drivers, fast food workers).

Now the cry is "go to college," and the implication is that is you DON'T go to college you are somehow a loser or deserve to be poor. Even college students, now $50-100k in debt, can't find decent jobs to pay down their loans and buy houses, cars, etc. How many college grads work as servers in restaurants? My sister has a master's and still takes shifts on the side to make ends meet.

I hear a lot of talk about "lazy" millennials and how this (current) generation is the worst ever. And yes, some younger people ARE lazy, or entitled, or what have you, but MOST aren't (I know lots of lazy 30-50 year olds too). The problem with millennials isn't about work ethic, its about motivation and opportunity. The American dream is dead. No longer is hard work enough to get by. Used to be, but not anymore. Stagnant wages, rising college tuition (astronomical), inflation, no opportunity, and no hope for the future.

Somethings got to change. The industry could very well implode on itself.


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

Every bar kitchen I work in pays me better than $10-$12 / hr. cash otd. Usually I make $100 / shift, flat rate. There is not one single place where the bartenders, who are also the servers, don't get more than double what I make. 


Work ethic is a real big problem. Call it anything you want. Wrap it in any suit you can find. At the end of the day ... it's still the same song and dance. Far too many people want way too much for what they're willing or able to do. Work ethic.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm not sure that the American dream is dead but it's on life support. In a closed loop of an economy it would be a pure zero-sum game; for one person to gain another would have to lose. Capitalism has always kept the overall pie growing by finding new pools to exploit. We did this in postwar Japan and Europe to create new markets. But it wasn't enough- we also needed to find pools of cheap labor to exploit. We began to source a lot of stuff from Taiwan, India, Viet Nam and China where American companies can create products with workers that earn only a couple dollars a day. But after a while the countries we exploit begin to work their into larger, modern world economy...then we need to find someone new to exploit. The problem with this practice is that eventually there's nothing left to exploit.

So will the game become a zero-sum game after all, where we have a class of billionaires that own virtually everything and a hundred million serfs that labor daily to maintain their master's estates? Has it already happened?

Even the very rich are starting to understand that the game can't work forever with a few hundred masters and a few hundred millions slaves. The class struggle is becoming more pronounced and will likely to continue to worsen. Clearly the $15 minimum wage battle is the result of frustrations of millions of people that have seen the middle class evaporate as the rich have become obscenely wealthy. My take is that the rot runs too deep to be fixed by just papering over it with higher wages at the bottom but it will probably have to start there. Much as Someday said "back in the day" there were good jobs that you could get with a HS education, lots of them. But decades of neocons and neoliberals have eroded the middle class by shattering unions and outsourcing; refusal to modernize and spend on education has made Americans as a group ill equipped to participate in the new information economy of the near future (and note this isn't just my opinion- we have the H-1B Visa mostly because we don't have enough qualified home grown workers with the skills we need).

I"m in my late 40's, and maybe I'm one of lucky ones. I have a Bachelor's degree in business and [what I consider] a pretty decent job. But jobs as we know them probably won't exist in 30 or 40 years. Society will have to figure some shit before that happens.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

"Somebody" - just so I'm understanding 100%....

You are saying that a line cook should be able to survive anywhere in the US, working 40 hours a week at one kitchen....?
Again, to me that only seems feasible or possible if you're quite young and still living with parents, or are living in a state/city wth very cheap cost of living, or you've been at the same restaurant for a decade or more and you've put in quality, hard work the entire time and are still a badass on the line...
Otherwise, I can't imagine thinking I should be able to survive in ANY major city or state. To think I could survive in SF or Chicago or another major city working 40 hours as a line cook? I would have to be delusional or one some very strong drugs....
Open your own restaurant and put in 70 hours a week, then you should be able to survive with everyone else...

I personally think any higher wages in this industry is a handout... I don't take handouts. I didn't choose this industry for fast money, I would have been a stock broker if I was looking to get rich fast. I'm gonna get rich in this crazy industry, but I also know when that time comes I will have already put my body and brain through insane amounts of stress and hard work, but I will never regret a second ....
This industry should be hard work for not a lot of $$. If you want easy, middle class wages, then yes go screw doors onto Ford Taurus' at the local factory.

If you want an industry where you can work your ass off and NEVER EVER have a minute without something to accomplish. And being able to go home after your shift and saying "I just busted my ass for x amount of hours, never stopped for a break, didn't make a lot of money but I'm still here alive and smiling. Unlike other industries where one can show up to work and not do much and still get paid pretty decently.
I like to go home and feel accomplished and like I earned EVERY dollar that was given to me that day.
I don't like things given to me, I like to known I earned every bit of it ....


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

rndmchef said:


> "Somebody" - just so I'm understanding 100%....
> 
> You are saying that a line cook should be able to survive anywhere in the US, working 40 hours a week at one kitchen....?
> Again, to me that only seems feasible or possible if you're quite young and still living with parents, or are living in a state/city wth very cheap cost of living, or you've been at the same restaurant for a decade or more and you've put in quality, hard work the entire time and are still a badass on the line...
> ...


I can't speak for Someday but I think the point he (and others) have made is that the game is rigged. Certainly you can't survive on a 40 hour a week cook job but you should be able to. Wages are kept artificially low by regulations, food is artificially cheap through tax subsidies, etc. It is indeed insane that you can get a burger cheaper than an apple. Tipping allows some workers to be paid as little as $2.13 and hour. If you look at a company like Wal-Mart around 20% of the employees are getting some type of welfare. What that essentially means is that the cost of providing a living wage for them has been shifted away from Wal-Mart and onto the tax payers. The same thing happens when cooks are paid $7.25/hour.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Yesterday (Mothers Day) one of our servers had over $1,000 in tips in less than 8 hours of service......

You still think they should be paid more than $3 an hour by the restaurant? They should be paid $15 an hour like the cooks? While also receiving $1,000 in tips?
It's not just Mothers Day, it's everyday the FOH is walking away with more than the BOH.

BOH doesn't need to be paid more by the restaurant, the tips simply need to be evenly distributed amongst everyone who contributed to that customers experience. Why is the standard that the server keeps their tip and doesn't share it evenly with the back of the house? That's a standard in the US that should be changed, maybe even by law...

Now, line cooks here are being paid literally a dollar or two less than the servers; that's not an exaggeration.. The servers are also keeping all their tips. So theyre making 3 or 4 times what the cooks are on most days.

The ONLY way that I let myself not hate these facts 100%.... is that cooks can turn into chefs and open their own restaurants and make their own money and fame through experience gained being a line cook. I don't know of many entrepreneurial type money making opportunities one could start after becoming an amazing server in restaurants over the years....maybe like a FOH manager? But, good luck opening a restaurant with just server experience. 
I know of many line cooks who have become chefs though and even have become celebrity chefs. These celebrity chefs are making millions and MILLIONS of dollars not just through their restaurants but simple sponsorship opportunities. 
Gordon Ramsay made $60 million last year...

$60 million dollars, made by a CHEF, doing only chef things in 2016. And the American Dream is dead? How flippin stupid does that sound? He wasn't even born on this side of the world... 
And again, I know of ZERO servers that have made $60 million dollars in a year or anywhere near that, they're making more than line cooks, for no good reason. But, at the end of the day, work HARD, become a chef, open your own place, run it how you want, make however much money you want, according to how hard you want to work and stop worrying that line cooks aren't making enough $$...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Sure a chef can make $60M a year. But someone always wins the Powerball, too- that doesn't make it a valid career plan. For every chef that makes a million there are a thousand grinding it out 60+ hours at well under $100k.  I'm not saying there's no opportunity but the fact that there are a few highly paid celebrity chefs doesn't mean that everyone has that chance.  And again, to me the American Dream isn't everyone being rich, that's in idiotic thing to expect in the first place. Everyone can't be rich without changing t he definition of the word.  To me the American Dream is being successful, being able to improve your life by working hard.  Not just by being lucky.  Do you think Brad Pitt works twenty million times harder than you?  Or is there some luck involved?

To me having a server making $1000 days a day when the cook makes 1/8 of that just reinforces my opinion.  To me the solution isn't taking their tips and pooling them, it's getting rid of tipping, charging an amount for the food that reflects the total cost of the experience and paying all stakeholders and equitable amount.  You're also wrong about servers. They can and do go on to open restaurants.  No matter how good the food is it's very often the server or maitre de that are the public face a restaurant.  My boss and owner of the restaurant where I work doesn't cook at all and never has, he was FOH.  Worked as a busser, then bartender, then FOH manager then GM.

Not everyone wants to own their own place. And I don't think that you should have to be a business owner to get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Phaedrus said:


> I'm not sure that the American dream is dead but it's on life support. In a closed loop of an economy it would be a pure zero-sum game; for one person to gain another would have to lose. Capitalism has always kept the overall pie growing by finding new pools to exploit. We did this in postwar Japan and Europe to create new markets. But it wasn't enough- we also needed to find pools of cheap labor to exploit. We began to source a lot of stuff from Taiwan, India, Viet Nam and China where American companies can create products with workers that earn only a couple dollars a day. But after a while the countries we exploit begin to work their into larger, modern world economy...then we need to find someone new to exploit. The problem with this practice is that eventually there's nothing left to exploit.
> 
> So will the game become a zero-sum game after all, where we have a class of billionaires that own virtually everything and a hundred million serfs that labor daily to maintain their master's estates? Has it already happened?
> 
> ...


Thank you, well said. 


rndmchef said:


> "Somebody" - just so I'm understanding 100%....


Who is that? Nobody here called "Somebody"


rndmchef said:


> You are saying that a line cook should be able to survive anywhere in the US, working 40 hours a week at one kitchen....?
> Again, to me that only seems feasible or possible if you're quite young and still living with parents, or are living in a state/city wth very cheap cost of living, or you've been at the same restaurant for a decade or more and you've put in quality, hard work the entire time and are still a badass on the line...
> Otherwise, I can't imagine thinking I should be able to survive in ANY major city or state. To think I could survive in SF or Chicago or another major city working 40 hours as a line cook? I would have to be delusional or one some very strong drugs....
> Open your own restaurant and put in 70 hours a week, then you should be able to survive with everyone else...


Well, I'm saying that anyone in the UNITED STATES, who is gainfully employed and works a full time job (for the record, I don't believe I said "40 hours a week"), ANY job, should make a livable wage. So yes, that would include line cooks working full time.

I'm not saying that, currently, most line cooks make a livable wage, or that working only one job is enough for most line cooks. I'm saying that it is abhorrent that a line cook (or again, anyone else) doesn't make a livable wage.

Do you not think it is a bad thing that a line cook has to work two jobs? Or be 25 and still live at home?

I'm talking about a sea change in the industry, not how the industry currently is. 


rndmchef said:


> I personally think any higher wages in this industry is a handout... I don't take handouts. I didn't choose this industry for fast money, I would have been a stock broker if I was looking to get rich fast. I'm gonna get rich in this crazy industry, but I also know when that time comes I will have already put my body and brain through insane amounts of stress and hard work, but I will never regret a second ....


How is working full time a handout for anyone? Are you kidding me? Seriously? Fast money? I'm talking about a LIVABLE wage, not getting rich?!?!? What are you talking about? I'm talking about having enough money to afford a roof, some food, heating, without the need for government or other assistance. What is so hard to understand about that?

Perfect example of one of the major hurdles the food industry, as well as the country in general, is facing when someone thinks that somehow "only" working full time as a line cook (or a nanny, or whatever) is a "hand out?" If I wasn't so sure you were serious I'd call you a troll. 


rndmchef said:


> This industry should be hard work for not a lot of $$. If you want easy, middle class wages, then yes go screw doors onto Ford Taurus' at the local factory.


Wow. I don't even know what to say. And by the way, many, if not most, of those middle class jobs don't exist anymore. I'm in a better place now financially (though still not stellar lol) than I was when I was a line cook. But I remember what is was like to scrape my couch cushions for spare change to put enough gas in the car to make it to work before the next payday. I remember having to walk to work 2 hours each way for 2 weeks while I waited to get paid to get my car fixed. I remember what is was like to go home to a roach motel apartment and read library cookbooks because I couldn't buy them yet. 


rndmchef said:


> If you want an industry where you can work your ass off and NEVER EVER have a minute without something to accomplish. And being able to go home after your shift and saying "I just busted my ass for x amount of hours, never stopped for a break, didn't make a lot of money but I'm still here alive and smiling. Unlike other industries where one can show up to work and not do much and still get paid pretty decently.
> I like to go home and feel accomplished and like I earned EVERY dollar that was given to me that day.
> I don't like things given to me, I like to known I earned every bit of it ....


Cool. Ever remember busting your ass for 40 hours a week, and instead of going home you went back to your car to live? Or the homeless shelter? Or the apartment you had to share with 4-6 other people just to make rent? Nice that you HAD a home to go to. Ever had to go hungry yourself just so you could scrape enough food together to feed your kids?

Again, you putting judgment on someone, who to use your example, works at Buffalo Wild Wings somehow SHOULDN'T feel like the earned their money for their work? Is that what you are really saying?

Pathetic.

You'll have to explain to me how doing an honest days work, in any industry, is "giving" you things. Unreal. But yeah, I guess an entire industry pretty much built on cheap, poverty level labor that lets you keep that chip on your shoulder nice and big is worth it, eh?


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Phaedrus said:


> Sure a chef can make $60M a year. But someone always wins the Powerball, too- that doesn't make it a valid career plan. For every chef that makes a million there are a thousand grinding it out 60+ hours at well under $100k. I'm not saying there's no opportunity but the fact that there are a few highly paid celebrity chefs doesn't mean that everyone has that chance. And again, to me the American Dream isn't everyone being rich, that's in idiotic thing to expect in the first place. Everyone can't be rich without changing t he definition of the word. To me the American Dream is being successful, being able to improve your life by working hard. Not just by being lucky. Do you think Brad Pitt works twenty million times harder than you? Or is there some luck involved?
> 
> To me having a server making $1000 days a day when the cook makes 1/8 of that just reinforces my opinion. To me the solution isn't taking their tips and pooling them, it's getting rid of tipping, charging an amount for the food that reflects the total cost of the experience and paying all stakeholders and equitable amount. You're also wrong about servers. They can and do go on to open restaurants. No matter how good the food is it's very often the server or maitre de that are the public face a restaurant. My boss and owner of the restaurant where I work doesn't cook at all and never has, he was FOH. Worked as a busser, then bartender, then FOH manager then GM.
> 
> Not everyone wants to own their own place. And I don't think that you should have to be a business owner to get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.


American Dream does not mean everyone gets rich, nor does it mean a person who has lived the American Dream has gotten rich. I never said that...
I brought up an example of chefs getting rich, cause YOU were complaining that the rich are so much richer than the rest now, and that the poor can never become rich now, and that the poor are simply working to survive , etc. wtc. You pulled that together with "the American Dream is dead.....

Not everyone wants to be rich. There is a good percentage of people who don't want wealth....
You ever talked to those homeless people you mentioned ????
I have , I wonder why they don't put in more effort for a better lifestyle ...
Know why? Many (not all) don't want responsibilitys, and certainly not the responsibility of getting up at 7am or earlier and going to work everyday 
This is not just homeless people. This is many different types of people, working many different types of jobs.
The reason not everybody chooses to bust their ass and get their own money, lots of the time it's they simply don't want the responsibility it takes to do that everyday. They would rather have no money or not much and be able to do what they want everyday ...

As well, not everyone even wants lots of money. Money doesn't make everyone happy 
Lots of people would rather have a family, spouse and kids as opposed to TONS of money with none of that.

So Ramsay was brought up to show that one can do anything still today if thy put in the effort and want it bad enough. Even make $60 mil. as a chef in one year.

"Chef grinding it out for 60 hours a week, making less than 100k"
Well; first off, 60 hours is not very much for a chef or even a cook in 2016....
Cooks here are working 100 hours or more, easily ,
My girlfriend puts in just under 120 hours a week as a line cook. One-hundred and twenty hours. She knows if she wants to live, she's gotta bust her ass. She doesn't expect a livable wage on 40 hours a week...


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Ramsay isn't American- his is the British dream./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

rndmchef said:


> Yesterday (Mothers Day) one of our servers had over $1,000 in tips in less than 8 hours of service......
> 
> You still think they should be paid more than $3 an hour by the restaurant? They should be paid $15 an hour like the cooks? While also receiving $1,000 in tips?
> It's not just Mothers Day, it's everyday the FOH is walking away with more than the BOH.
> ...


Well, yes, that's exactly WHAT I've been saying. Thing is ,you need regulations in place before this can happen.

You need:

-A qualification/benchmark for cooks that tells us what they should know and what they should be capable of

-A qualification/benchmark for servers that tells us what they should know and what they should be capable of

Once this is done, you can actually have a salary range based on qualifications

And once that is done, you can do away with this 20% tipping bullsh*t.

but then you also need...

-a qualification/benchmark for restauranteurs

Why?

We are our own worst enemy. There's too much competition for the same dining dollar, a lot of newbies going in without any prior experience, and then lowering their prices so they can't make a buck, but maybe just pay the majority of the bills. And that ignorance is dragging down all the other operators who are trying to run a viable business.

Then again if you guys (U.S.) have such a powerfull lobby group so as to influence a large amount of individual States to ignore the minimum wage and pay servers a wage way below this--_that isn't even pegged to the current minimum wage _(sub $3.00/hr min wage was when, the early '70s?) You got a lot of work to do.....


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

Gordon Ramsay was born in Scotland, Edinburough, I believe.  He only moved to England in his mid teens


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I agree that tipping is way out of hand. Service in almost all restaurants is more of a delivery service. Most people don't go to restaurants that demand great service because your talking about two meals for $150 with wine or drinks. I don't think any person who has worked in the BOH has ever felt their wage was fair compared to FOH waitstaff. I would rather see a lot more money coming to the BOH, these people work their asses off. I really don't know what the right answer is. Food cost is a set controllable cost. Labor is a controllable cost unless this gets crazy with $15 min wage. All I see coming out of this is kitchens working with less people. Chefs will be working the front line along with cooks. I think all restauranteurs and food service establishments have to rethink how things are done. I'll tell you one thing, The $15 min wage isn't going to get more people hired in this industry. IMHO I think it's way out of line for unskilled entree level employees that were barely hirable for $8 an hour. The restaurant business is the most difficult business to be successful in. I give a lot of credit to those who have succeed. I know they didn't succeed by paying higher wages to employees that offer a minimal amount effort to accomplish that success.........Chef Bill


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

My wife and I just celebrated our anniversary but we didn't do by going out to dinner. If we had, it probably would have been an easy $100 (with no alcohol) before tip. If the cooks were paid $20.00 an hour, the tab would have probably been more like an easy $135 (with no alcohol) before tip. If I can't justify spending $100 plus tip, then $135 plus tip is way beyond consideration.

This is not meant to come across as anti raising the pay of BOH, because I think the pay that BOH receives is generally atrocious. Hell,I am BOH myself, and my pay is pitiful. I just don't know how owners can do it without raising prices or eliminating tips, both of which can be a death knell for a restaurant. That whole conundrum is "one" of the reasons I happily choose to stay a "former" owner.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

We have laws on everything else here in the US, now there are even laws that say what bathroom you can or can't use. You will now be a criminal if you use the wrong gender bathroom in the US. I must have missed the major headlines and problems we've had over people using the wrong bathroom. O wait, there has been no problems at all when we had zero laws pertaining to bathroom use....

Getting off topic, but seriously , not even kidding. If we're gonna have laws like that on the books, why not pass some that say you can't sell a cheeseburger for less than $3... Pass laws that raise menu prices, no longer can people buy a cheeseburger for $1. No where, not with any coupon, not at any time of day, you must sell them for more, otherwise the standard of food pricing is not equal or fair....


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

foodpump said:


> Gordon Ramsay was born in Scotland, Edinburough, I believe. He only moved to England in his mid teens


Okay, the Scottish Dream, then!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

rndmchef said:


> We have laws on everything else here in the US, now there are even laws that say what bathroom you can or can't use. You will now be a criminal if you use the wrong gender bathroom in the US. I must have missed the major headlines and problems we've had over people using the wrong bathroom. O wait, there has been no problems at all when we had zero laws pertaining to bathroom use....
> 
> Getting off topic, but seriously , not even kidding. If we're gonna have laws like that on the books, why not pass some that say you can't sell a cheeseburger for less than $3... Pass laws that raise menu prices, no longer can people buy a cheeseburger for $1. No where, not with any coupon, not at any time of day, you must sell them for more, otherwise the standard of food pricing is not equal or fair....


There are and have always been laws about what bathrooms you can use. Most people don't know much or hear much about them because in the past folks didn't lose their shit at the idea of a trans person using the one they identify with. Conservatives here trot out the long-discredited "bathroom predator" myth to try to force new laws. I agree, it's a non-issue.

Despite being a "progressive" I'm not really in favor of even more laws about food pricing. Generally the market should set prices. That's not what we have now however. I get that in America we want subsidies because we're used to the illusion of cheap food, just like we cherish the illusions of low prices at Wal-Mart. Generally we're myopic and short sighted, desiring short term satisfaction of our desires with little regard for the long term consequences. For example as a chef I can't imagine ever going totally vegetarian or vegan, yet I also understand very well that our current levels of meat consumption are not sustainable. So maybe it's time for the sticker price of meat to start reflecting the true cost of its production (eg environmentally, socially, politically, etc).

Look, I'm not saying I know it all or have all the answers. But the way we're doing things now isn't really working. Wages are not at all fair and most stakeholders don't share equitably in the riches of our very rich society. $15 for everyone is a very flawed solution to the problem IMO but something like it is probably inevitable. We'll have to figure out how to make it work but I guess we'll burn that bridge when we come to it./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Ramsay was not born in the US, but that's where he has made 90% of his money. If anything, that proves my point even more. If someone from another country that was not even raised here can come and figure out how to be successful; what's stopping you, who was born and raised here to figure it out?? Imagine moving to the other side of the world and attempting to become rich, a lot more daunting then figuring it out right where you were born, with all your family and friends around to provide support ....

Also, i would not have nearly as much frustration towards the wage difference of BOH vs. FOH if the effort put in by both sides was equal. FOH can half ass their job and the customer still feels obligated to give 15-20% tip. Unless the FOH manager becomes aware of a half ass service continually, nothing will happen. BOH half asses their job, the chef will quickly notice and you will be fired.
And I see many more FOH staff come to work and do a crappy job; compared to cooks ... For the reason I mentioned, the customer is feeling obligated to always give a tip, thus the server can think "well, I must have done a pretty good job, they tipped me 20%". ..


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

That seems absurd to me.  He didn't come here and "learn to be successful"- he'd already cheffed at Mcheline starred restaurants!  Ramsay is hardly a rags-to-riches American success story, he was a huge success long before he was known in the US. Besides, when one chef in a million is making that kind of money it's hardly a trend.

I also disagree that FOH isn't working as hard as BOH. Certainly some are not but some are.  In my callow youth I thought as you do, that servers have it made, so I jumped ship to work FOH as a server.  What a disaster!  Cooks have to deal with dumb servers but servers deal with hundreds of dipshits every week!  And it's pretty hard work that in many ways mirror the work in the kitchen.  Like most of us I've dated several servers, and they all busted their asses.  My last GF was an amazing server, one of the best I have ever seen.  No way could I have done what she did.

And really you can't blame servers for the tipping culture.  You also seem to willingly ignore that often they get stiffed.  It has to suck to bust your ass all night for $3/hour and wind up taking home $20 in tips. At least in the kitchen, busy or slow we still get paid.  Since I'm on salary I have the security of knowing what every payday will look like for six months at a time.

I get really tired of the old "FOH vs BOH Battle".  We both work hard, we're both vital to running a successful restaurant and we're both on the short end of the stick many times.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

Phaedrus said:


> That seems absurd to me. He didn't come here and "learn to be successful"- he'd already cheffed at Mcheline starred restaurants! Ramsay is hardly a rags-to-riches American success story, he was a huge success long before he was known in the US. Besides, when one chef in a million is making that kind of money it's hardly a trend.
> 
> I also disagree that FOH isn't working as hard as BOH. Certainly some are not but some are. In my callow youth I thought as you do, that servers have it made, so I jumped ship to work FOH as a server. What a disaster! Cooks have to deal with dumb servers but servers deal with hundreds of dipshits every week! And it's pretty hard work that in many ways mirror the work in the kitchen. Like most of us I've dated several servers, and they all busted their asses. My last GF was an amazing server, one of the best I have ever seen. No way could I have done what she did.
> 
> ...


You are truly a voice of reason.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

I don't want to be FOH; if I did, I would be a waiter...
I did a whole semester in my FOH class; at a pretty darn good culinary school... I know a little bit what it's like; I also have eyes and see exactly what they do when they arrive to leaving(in their 4 hour shift [emoji]128580[/emoji]) ...
They are not trying to get a piece of meat cooked to temp in considerably less time than it should actually take, while the chef and waiter are staring them down, saying "let's go, I need that 2 minutes ago"....
Nor is FOH getting burnt, cutting themselves, scrubbing walls and floors in the restaurant, lending a hand when the dishwasher calls in sick, prepping any number of things that take skill to prepare exactly how the chef wants it prepped..

I don't want to argue that FOH does nothing; clearly they do something... But to say they work as hard as a good BOH cook/chef is insanity.

Service staff is not at the restaurant for as long as the BOH; service staff is mainly there for service time.... That said, who is working harder during service time? Half of their job is walking food from the pass to the table. People come to eat the food, not watch people run plates....

Youre right, the servers did not make tipping how it is today... But, they can help the situation . What is stopping a server from giving the BOH some of their tips everyday? Nothing, it would not be against the rules if a server gave some of their tips to BOH; only reason it's not done ? They are greedy.

I have never ever seen a server go home with $20 in tips. I've been doing this for over 10 years now..
I have however seen servers make $75-$100 an hour multiple times a week.

My current chef told me yesterday how at the last upscale steakhouse he was working at "servers were taking home 75k a year and the executive chef was only making $50k and putting in many, many more hours than any server"......

And I don't know about you; but as a cook, I've never been paid based on how hard I will be working on the super busy days....my hourly pay has ALWAYS been equal to a standard day of work. Never has the chef said "that was a good Friday night guys, you moved quick, everything looked good and that was a smooth service. Here's an extra $40 for your hard work" 
Never . I don't expect it ever . I and other cooks know there will be PLENTY of nights where we are working harder than we should be for our pay. ...

What happens when a server has a busy Friday night and they do a decent job???? We all know; they get their hourly wage($10 MINIMUM here, most making $11, $12 or more) as well as tips, and greater tips than they get on a normal night.

And I don't know about you , but "slow" nights are not very common at the restaurants I work at. A slow night for a server is usually $30 in tips per hour.

Let's be very conservative. Let's say EVERY week, it's slow on Sunday and Monday. EVERY week, never ever a busy Sunday or Monday, ever. That means 28.5% of the time, it's "slow". So then 71.5% of the time it is either a normal day or busy. And we're figuring on the slow days, servers are ALWAYS walking away with less than the cooks. Even in places like CA where minimum wage for servers is $10 right now and $13 in just 3 1/2 years (2020)....
So that means 71.5% of the time, BOH is making (quite a lot) less than the FOH. Doesn't seem fair in the least. Imagine if it was the other way around....

You think servers will work as hard as they do now if we eliminate tipping? That's what it comes down to, really.
If a server knows they're only gonna make $12 an hour like cooks do; will they even show up to work? Let alone deliver the food with a smile?

Right now, some of the cooks at the restaurant are being paid the same hourly wage as the servers are; except the servers are also getting tips everyday, from just abou every single table they deal with....


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## Iceman (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm gonna go on a tangent here ... sorry.


> _They are not trying to get a piece of meat cooked to temp in considerably less time than it should actually take, while the chef and waiter are staring them down, saying "let's go, I need that 2 minutes ago"...._


 Never, and I mean never, do I let anyone ever give me any noise about doing my job. Only bosses that are very new and very stupid try this with me ... and they never do it twice. If servers ever get in my face I just walk away and let them try doing my job. Or I stab them. ... OK, I've never really stabbed anyone, but I have throw orders at them.


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## someday (Aug 15, 2003)

rndmchef said:


> I don't want to be FOH; if I did, I would be a waiter...
> I did a whole semester in my FOH class; at a pretty darn good culinary school... I know a little bit what it's like; I also have eyes and see exactly what they do when they arrive to leaving(in their 4 hour shift [emoji]128580[/emoji]) ...
> They are not trying to get a piece of meat cooked to temp in considerably less time than it should actually take, while the chef and waiter are staring them down, saying "let's go, I need that 2 minutes ago"....
> Nor is FOH getting burnt, cutting themselves, scrubbing walls and floors in the restaurant, lending a hand when the dishwasher calls in sick, prepping any number of things that take skill to prepare exactly how the chef wants it prepped..
> ...


I don't really understand what point you are trying to make. We all agree that cooks and chefs should be paid more. We all agree that the FoH->BoH pay discrepancy is unfair (isn't that what this thread is about in the first place?)

I think the point is that:

a) blaming servers for how much they get paid is moot

b) your blanket categorization of millions of hard working servers is borderline offensive

c) the old Front vs Back debate is old, outdated and has no place in a professional restaurant

I've known lazy servers, of course, but I've also known lazy cooks, and lazy dishwashers, and lazy plumbers, and lazy auto mechanics.

I've known extremely hard working, dedicated, motivated and generally bad-ass servers too. True professionals who dedicate their lives to serving food and drink professionally.

In a LOT of high end places, it's not uncommon for the wait staff to work LONGER hours than the cooks. Working "harder" is debatable, but often they have to stay late into the night to cover bar patrons, late, lingering tables. They can't vacuum and clean the FoH with people there. They often have to go in early to iron linen, set up tables, polish glasses, etc.

Anger directed at the FoH is wasted, because they are just embodying a system that needs to change. A European model would be a good starting point, I think.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

Honestly, i had to say something about Phaedrus saying the current system of tipping is not fair to even the servers.....

That is absurd. Ive never heard that. I've seen it makes the customer feel weird and the BOH not receive their share and I can probably agree with anything else, except that the servers don't have it good...

I have never worked anywhere where the servers were not getting paid an adequate amount. Servers quickly leave if they aren't getting paid (more than the cooks) "decently" .... The place then goes out of business.

I'm not saying the BOH is getting ripped off and all cooks should on strike....no way. I wake up everyday glad to go to work, even though I am aware I should be getting paid slightly more. We get to cook food and fill people's stomachs, I wouldn't trade that for all the money in the world....

What I am saying is , the waitstaff is getting paid a good enough wage the way things are right now. Nobody should ever feel sorry for them or that they need to be paid more.
If nothing else, in comparison to BOH.

If we want to change the way restaurants get their money. All I ask, if possible, make sure BOH receives a slight pay raise in comparison to today... FOH not receiving enough money is not a problem in today's current tipping system . If nothing changes, that's fine. We will still gladly cook like there's no tomorrow,


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

We may have to agree to disagree.  A lot depends on where you work.  Most of my career has been worked in a state where servers made $2.13 and hour but right now where I work the minimum is $9/hr, even for tipped staff (!).  Some of what you say would be true here; even on a very slow night if a server gets almost nothing for tips the still make almost as much as a cook and on a good night they make a killing.  But MN isn't typical.  Look at a "right to work" state where servers generally make $3/hr or less.  You must realize they do a fair bit of work for $3 and hour.  Usually they can be required to do at least a bit of work like roll silver, hokey the floor, etc at the server rate.  Would you do sidework for $3 an hour?

It's true that in nicer places the best servers do sometimes make more than the Exec.  At probably the nicest place I ever worked (many years ago) I was pulling down $1,100 per week as the chef but the best servers were making over $65k.  But to be honest I didn't envy them a bit.  I enjoyed my job a lot more than most of them enjoyed theirs.  There's probably a certain kind of satisfaction in serving people if  you're good at it but I can't imagine it's the same kind of satisfaction I get from creating my own dishes, etc.

MD, if servers failing to give some of the money to the cooks is simple greed then I have to ask how much of  your money you give to the dishwashers?  Certainly you make more money than they do and their job is perhaps even harder and shittier than yours.  So do  you give them a bit on the side or are you greedy, too?

Lastly not all servers pull the same green.  In every place I've worked you had to earn the right to the best section, the best shifts, etc. Getting stuck in a bad section, being forced to work mostly lunches, etc can really limit how much they can earn.  And obviously not all places will have the same level of sales & tips.  And on top of it all you have your income being determined not just by your own work but why the whims of the customer.  A cook gets paid the same every time but a server won't know how much they made til they cash out.

Eliminating tipping would actually solve most of these problems.  If the customer wasn't expected to leave a tip the true cost of the meal would be on the bill.  This might make a burger basket at the local dive bar a $16 meal instead of an $8 dish.  But that would enable the business to distribute that equitably.  If we did have that hypothetical $15 min wage then everyone would be paid well, and of course the more valuable staff would make more.  The prices on the menu would go up but then the public would also have a lot more cash to blow on dinner.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Someday said:


> In a LOT of high end places, it's not uncommon for the wait staff to work LONGER hours than the cooks. Working "harder" is debatable, but often they have to stay late into the night to cover bar patrons, late, lingering tables. They can't vacuum and clean the FoH with people there. They often have to go in early to iron linen, set up tables, polish glasses, etc.
> 
> Anger directed at the FoH is wasted, because they are just embodying a system that needs to change. A European model would be a good starting point, I think.


God, +1 to this. Tonite we go a little bit of a late rush and since I was closing with the staff anyway I decided to catch up on a little bit of office work. It was actually nearly midnite when I left even though I was "done" at ten. But as I walked out one server in the bar section was still waiting on customers! I'd hang myself if I had to stay til midnite or one every night to wait on the drunks.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

First....right to work states are NOT the same as states with "tipped wages" below the standard minimum wage.

The United States federal government has a minimum wage currently in 2016 of $2.13 for tipped employees.

Right to work states is something ENTIRELY different and completely unrelated to tipped wages.
MN is also not a right to work state.

Right to work states are about unions. The right to work state like CA have laws that say nobody can be forced to join a union nor can they be denied joining a union while employed. People also can not be forced to pay dues to a union in these states.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

The two are broadly correlated, the term "right to work" is obviously sarcasm on the part of some bureaucrat.  Mostly it is to bust unions and allow employers to do whatever the hell they want.  But that's neither here nor there.  Many states have their own minimum wage even for tipped workers so the fed min is often irrelevant (again, it depends on where you are).  MN is not a RTW state and is pretty liberal overall.  Well, I should say that Minneapolis/St.Paul is liberal and the rest of the state is somewhat conservative.

Not that any of this has much to do with the OP.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

They are not related in the least.

In 1947, the Taft-Hartley Act was passed which prohibited arrangements where employers agree to hire only unionized workers. The act allows for “union shops,” which are arrangements in the workplace that require employees to join a particular union within a certain time-frame after they are hired. However, Taft Hartley created an exception to the “union shops” rule that allows for individual states to pass laws prohibiting union shops. These laws are now referred to as “Right-to-Work” laws.

In states without Right-to-Work laws, the workers covered by a union contract can refuse to join the union and then pay the fees associated with the workplace bargaining.

States with Right-to-Work laws require union contracts to cover all workers, not just the ones who are members of the union.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Even less to do with the OP.


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## foodpump (Oct 10, 2005)

> In states without Right-to-Work laws, the workers covered by a union contract can refuse to join the union and then pay the fees associated with the workplace bargaining.
> 
> States with Right-to-Work laws require union contracts to cover all workers, not just the ones who are members of the union.


Actually, this has a lot to do with the lousy wages in the hospitality industry.

Lets look at the quote above: In other words, even if the worker doesn't "join" a Union, s/he still has to pay the union dues. As a cynical old fart,I know these dues are garnisheed from each and every paycheck, and most unions charge a straight fee regardless if f/t or p/t. Now, some people may use an analogy of a pig at a trough. Wrong. The fatter the pig, the more the farmer can sell it for. More like a rat gnawing a hole in a grain bin, the only one who gains is the rat.

There are "good" unions, and "bad" unions.

Lets look at the "good":

This type of union actually gives a sh*t and works hard with the trade schools to develop curriculum, to take advantage of new technology and materials. This curriculum is what most municipalities will base their building codes, plumbing codes, electrical codes, etc on. The two compliment each other. The Union also develops "tickets" or qualifications that say what that ticket holder should be capable of and know, and because of this, a pay rate is based on it. Which is why you won't find a plumber that doesn't charge less than $75/hr not including truck fees, and electrician @$80, not including truck fees, and an HVAC guy at well over $90, not including truck fees.

And the "bad" unions? Nothing. Haven't done anything, don't do anything, won't do anything. They exist only to garnishee the paychecks.

Sound familiar? There are no qualifications for any trade in the hospitality industry, never have been, and nothing on the horizon. The culinary schools may or may not have a curriculum that has something to offer to the employer, but how do you design a curriculum with qualification as a goal? And of course the wages in this industry suck. Royally. Well, except maybe for the shop steward, who in most cases is the only f/t non mgmt. staff.

Nope, the unions are part of the mess the hospitality industry is in. and ironically are in the best position to actually do something.....


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

@Phaedrus you're right, but the OP is easy. Wanna pay more? Charge more. Just math, right?


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Grande said:


> @Phaedrus you're right, but the OP is easy. Wanna pay more? Charge more. Just math, right?


Simple!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lol.gif


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## chefnicknack (Aug 13, 2013)

So all of this is coming from a Millennial that went to JWU, is finishing his Bachelors this week, & worked in restaurants the entire time...

I went into JWU wanting to be a chef one day. After getting my Associates & doing extremely well as a line cook, I realized that the pay & lifestyle was just ridiculous. So I got into Culinary Nutrition, & will be getting into product development which allows full benefits, a 9-5 schedule, the ability to make great money (75k+ dependent on your niche) all while still cooking.

The reason why there's such a BOH staff shortage is that everyone is realizing that the low wages & lifestyle aren't worth it. Yes, we all love the industry, but giving up your entire life isn't worth a job at the end of the day.

I want to have a family, go to events on the weekends, buy a house, see my kids soccer games, etc. you know, a normal life. & that simply isn't allowed in the restaurant industry. I love to cook, but I'm not giving up every other aspect of my life just because "16 hour work days 6 days a week at $12 an hour" is the norm


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Very true, CNN.  A couple years ago my niece went to culinary school.  When I found out I just shook my head and wondered why the hell she didn't talk to me first!  I could have told her it was a waste of time, especially since she went to LCB.  As I predicted she couldn't handle the rigors and didn't even make it through her externship.  And of course now LCB has filed for banko and is closing.  It's sad since it was once a pretty good school.  But even for a good school who in their right mind spends $80,000 on a BA to get a job for $10 an hour?  Certainly you don't do it for the money.

I love being a chef but I don't think I would recommend it for sane/normal people.


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## rndmchef (Mar 16, 2016)

There is another positive side to all this...we get to work with our hands and solve problems with our hands everyday in our jobs. There are many, many jobs that don't do this, especially today ....

This is kinda what another member was saying ... More jobs are becoming done by machines and employees are simply pushing buttons all day to make product ....
Our jobs allow us to use our brains and hands together to complete tasks all day in our jobs which I think is pretty darn cool! 

Only other profession I would consider if not in this crazy one... woodworking. That's awesome to just watch.


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## singhisking (Oct 7, 2016)

I can say with 100% confidence, you are just  lying about ,not interested in handouts. Really. You have no idea what you are talking and how the  economy works...


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2016)

so you want to open a restaurant with 100 seats and pay all your cooks $20

100 seats can be done with about 4 cooks and a working chef with 5 servers ( assuming there is no bar and only open for dinner 5 days a week) 

if you are the working chef and you can deal with yourself only getting 60k a year 

that puts your payroll at 

1x60k

1x50k ( dining room manager) 

4x20/hr = $166,400 

6x15/hr ( servers and dishwasher)  $187,200

total annual payroll without OT 463600  ( 38633.33 per month) (8915.38 per week)

you would actually save money putting all servers and the dishwasher at salary for 30k a year and the cooks at 40k a year instead of paying them hourly 

just for payroll you would need to generate 1783 per day in net sales just to cover payroll 

which if you only turn the room 2 times a day its $8.90 per guest to cover payroll

now add in unemployment and insurance and utilities and rent and inventory and the money for the shit's gonna break fund and all the other random things that will nickle and dime you every day 

as long as you keep the business small and the staff small its plausible  but you would have to probably have to have a $60 check average without a bar and be sure that you can generate 200 guests a day minimum 

and know that you,yourself  would be working a minimum of 16 hours every day 7 days a week because the office work is a full time job and you are working as the chef so you get no days off 

and then you get to deal with the fact that the Sautee cook is mad that the Garde manger cook is making the same ammount of money


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

FB User (Private) said:


> you would actually save money putting all servers and the dishwasher at salary for 30k a year and the cooks at 40k a year instead of paying them hourly


Illegal as of Dec 1st of this year (barring the Senate acting Obama opting not to veto).


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2016)

Phaedrus said:


> Illegal as of Dec 1st of this year (barring the Senate acting Obama opting not to veto).


forgot this was a thing, so as of dec 1 salary employees are still due overtime if their gross salary is less than $913 per week; ($47,476 annually)

**where employers can use nondiscretionary bonuses and incentive payments (including commissions) to satisfy up to 10 percent of the new standard salary level.

which works out to be a salary of 42,728.4 with bonus potential of 4747.6


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## ljokjel (Jul 1, 2009)

What makes the US so special? The rest of the modern world are actually paying decent salaries to chefs and waiters, and from working in different countries in Europe. Im not saying great, but decent.

As well Im used to splitting the tips between BOH and FOH. My contribution is just as good as the waiters. Without each other we are both useless, but chefs are actually generally paid a bit better as well, but thats because of training and skills. Working FOH is a lot easier for a BOH-person than vice versa.


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