# What is a better purchase than Zwilling or Shun?



## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

Hello all. I am not a professional chef and would like help selecting a really good line of knives to enjoy in my kitchen. I have used the same chef's knife and paring knife for a really long time - Chicago Cutlery's Walmart-level 1H12D. I have decided I want some really good knives now and am not sure what questions I need to answer to help determine which to get. 

Internet shopping, I fell in love with Zwilling Pro. I love the design and style of them, particularly how the bolster flows between the handle and blade. 
I went to Williams-Sonoma to handle chef's knives, but they only had Wusthof and Shun. The Z-Pro-comparable Wusthof IKON and Classic IKON has a REALLY heavy handle and was a noticeable workload for my hand, just holding it and moving it in the air. 
(I was able to find some Zwilling Pro elsewhere, and they are not like this and feel good.) 
Then I handled the Shun Kaji and Premier! WOW!!! It was like a part of my hand, and INCREDIBLY sharp. The Premier would be a beautiful addition to my kitchen, on my walnut knife magnet. 
I really liked them and almost bought them before researching and glad I waited. 
I have read that Shun knives are good knives, but priced higher than they are really worth and that the metal is lower-quality than others in the same range. 
Supposedly, other knives are much better for around the same price. I've looked on the internet for several weeks and can't figure out what brand to get. 

I intend to get a 8'chef's, 6" utility, 3.5-4" paring, and 7" Santoku...at a minimum. I have in my shopping cart the Z-Pro 16-piece set with 3" paring, 4" paring, 5" serrated utility, 5.5" prep, 7" Santoku, 8" bread, 8" chef's, 9" sharpening steel, 6 steak knives, and shears. Of these, I don't care about the 5" serrated or 5.5 prep and would add a boning or filet knife, 5" Santoku, 2.75 bird's hook peeling, and a slicing knife (probably the carving set). 
I'm not sure how I feel about the greater-curved chef's knife, as opposed to their "traditional" chef's knife that's shaped like the one I already have. 

With my knife research, I also added Shun's 9-piece with 3" Vegetable, 4" Paring, 6 1/2-Inch Utility, 8-Inch Chef’s, 9-Inch Bread, 9 1/2-Inch Slicing, Honing Steel, and Kitchen Shears. 
The steak knives aren't a priority and don't have to match, but I do like the Z-Pros. I haven't had any steak knives in years anyway. I always just use a butter knife. 

SO...
Since the Shun's are seemingly over-priced (but I love the color of the wood handle), I'm unsure about having to send them for sharpening, I don't know how I feel about the Zwilling chef's knife shape, and the black handles don't really blend and flow with m kitchen, I have been trying to find others I like. I was trying to look at Misono, Tojiro, Dalstrong, Zelite, Sakai, Enso, and Masahiro but have had trouble qualifying and comparing. I found japanesechefsknife.com, and what seems like a good selection. Now I'm looking at JCK, Shiki, and Masamoto. (I also found MAC Professional)

Which, of the following, would fit best for home kitchen use? Should I stick with the Zwilling Pro or Shun Premier? Something else?

I showed the metal, hardness, bevel, thickness, and weight

JCK Original Kagayaki
VG-10 Damascus, 60-61, 50/50, 2mm, 193g
JCK Natures Gekko
VG-10 Damascus, 60-61, 50/50, 2mm, 191g
JCK Natures Deep Impact
Aogami Super Clad, 64-65, 50/50, 2mm, 182g
Shiki Shikisai
VG-10 Damascus, 60-61, 50/50, 2.8mm, 196g
Shiki VG-10
VG-10, 60-61, 50/50, 2.5mm, 214g
Shiki New World
VG-10 Hammered Damascus, 60-61, 50/50, 2mm, 172g
Masamoto CT (I assume NO, since it's not stainless)
High Carbon, 58-59, 70/30, 2.2mm, 189g
Masamoto VG
Hyper Molybdenum Vanadium, 58-59, 70/30, 2mm, 180g
Masamoto ST
Chrome Molybdenum Vanadium, 62, 70/30, 2.2mm, 165g
MAC Professional MTH-80
Don't know metal, hardness, or bevel, 2.5mm, 184g



Thank you all for any help and insight.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Why do these always seem to read very similar? Might be more than a coincidence.

Hang onto your keyboard, son... this is likely to be a wild ride.

But welcome to the forum.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

I've read some similar threads and thought I was being descriptive enough to forego a wild ride and get straightforward help. I'm sorry if I cause a stir or battle.


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## chefsing (Dec 19, 2015)

Knives are like cars, you get what you pay for. Saying that, that are far more premium sets you can get beyond Shun or Zwilling and genuinely don't find the prices as offensive. While for preference I still stick to some German brands for for heavy loaded butchery, my knife roll has been slowly transitioning into just Shun brand. The weight/feel/flexibility of steel simply work fit most comfortably to my hand and my needs and I can sharpen them with ease myself without much difficulty. I also have lifetime warranty on my Shun so if a tip breaks I Just send it in and get a new one(has happened with a 7 year old 10".) So for me, I'm saying stick to Shun or stick to your initial gut feeling- its your hands doing the work so do what feels and works best for your needs. As for the looks not matching/looking the flow of your kitchen, that is on you.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Welcome to chef talk TheSon, and simply don't pay attention to the rare comment coming from the peanut gallery.

As already stated, wusty and shun, in general, are not good dollar value. Definitely forget Dalstrong, and similar clones found on Amazon.

The wusty pro (the only good dollar value from wusty) and Vic Fibrox are on par, and a mainstay of affordable knives used in restaurants, the wusty holds and edge better, the fibrox has a better profile, and I suspect is also thinner at the edge. Both have those lousy NSF handles but they can easily be reshaped to you heart's desire with a dremel and it's sanding drum.

Before going on:

Pairing knives you should probably continue considering as dimeadozen

What size chefs are you looking for?

Do you need butchery knives?

Will you consider carbon, at least for non-acid foods?

What is your sharpening scheme (a very important consideration in knife selection)?

And, your biggest vaguery/omission, how much you want to spend?


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

I planned on sticking with an 8" chef's knife. I've never used another size or wished I had a different size. 
I figure any other knife I want could be considered a dime-a-dozen, but I wanted them to match. I do have a few super cheap paring knives from the 80s that I love and keep in my silverware drawer for a quick small job, just want my main (displayed) group to match. 
I probably don't need butchery knives, but not sure. I'd like to have the knives I mentioned. I don't necessarily "need" them since I've used just a chef's and paring for YEARS, but I would definitely use purposed knives if I had them. I may only use a slicing knife a few times a year, but it would be nice to have the option. Heck...I use my chef's knife for carving turkey. I feel a slicer may be a nice option...same for the other knives. 
I guess I could consider carbon. I was thinking stainless for ease of care and since it's general home kitchen. 
Sharpening scheme...For my Chicago Cutlery, I sharpen when it needs it. If last time I used it I noticed a slight change in the ease of cutting, I sharpen it before I use it again. I hone it probably every other time I use it. My sharpener has 17* and 20* guides. I use the 17* guide. 

Sorry I didn't give a budget number...I thought my description of what I was considering gave an idea. I should have been direct and specific. I want to spend <$1k for all of them. I'm looking at less than $150-175 for a chef's knife. With the right justification, I could go a little higher. For example, if the Shun Premier 8" chef's knife is worth it's price higher than the Zwilling Pro...there's no problem spending the extra money. Same for that list of others at the end of my original post.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

Meant to put the numbers here too: 
(For example, if the Shun Premier 8" chef's knife *$185* is worth it's price higher than the Zwilling Pro *$150*)


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

TheSon said:


> Meant to put the numbers here too:
> (For example, if the Shun Premier 8" chef's knife *$185* is worth it's price higher than the Zwilling Pro *$150*)


I think you might want to look in a mirror and ask this question if yourself: am I willing to pay $??? for the knife that meets my needs and appeals to me.

I was more than willing to buy Shun knives at the price they were asking at the time. And although an unpopular opinion around her... I still would. Yes, I shopped around until I found a mild discount but the discount was sport, not a necessity. Same logic for all of the knives I've bought over the past 45 years, most of which I still have and use.

Getting input from others is good but you need to satisfy yourself. Shun Premier 8" is my daily use knife. Others, of course, depending on the task... and since I have acquired way more than I'd ever need, depending a bit on my mood.

Your desires are diverse and many; your budget is way more than adequate. Figure out what's going to make you happy and enjoy the experience.

If you want matching knives, and there's nothing at all wrong with that, look into some of the smaller sets. Shun, for example, once had a 3-piece set comprised of a 8" chef, 6" utility, and 4" paring. Beyond that only a bread knife and maybe a boning knife would be needed by most cooks.

Good luck!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

For hard steel knives, though... you will really need to study a bit on sharpening. Steels are not very useful, nor are many machines. There are numerous threads on that topic.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

Yes, I get that. I guess something that makes me gun-shy is reading about lesser quality metals in Shun. I got the impression that other brands may have better quality metal for the same price range. Basically, that Shun has made more of a name-purchase of itself and is able to charge same prices for lower quality because people see/hear the name and that makes it automatically good.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

So... how are you going to resolve your self-doubt? What do you need to know... and If what you are fishing for is an opinion on what you should buy... how will you know who has the correct opinion?

If you are that “gun shy” about Shun, take it out of the equation. Move on to whatever else turns you on.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm not particularly looking for an opinion, but information about quality of other knives in the same range. I wish I had links to what I've seen regarding Shun, but basically that honing and sharpening reveals pitted metal. 
If this is not a concern for me in my kitchen, that would be good information. 
I'm really just wanting to learn which knives are best quality/cost. If there's not really the difference I perceived...then that's good information too. 
Maybe Bose is a good example. Bose is a really popular name for "awesome" speakers. I will never buy Bose. They may not be bad, but they aren't actually as good as the name implies. Admittedly, I do have Klipsch, but I went with the Reference series. 

I imagine I'll be VERY happy with any of them, as I've had no usage problems from my Chicago Cutlery in many years. But going from a Pinto to a nicer model, I want to get the best quality for the price.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Pitted metal???? Never heard that; never read that; never experienced that. Interesting, though.

If you are talking about edge nicks... that’s a fact with hard steel knives when used in a less than ideal way - cutting bones, twisting on cutting board. That’s not a Shun problem but related to the thinner, harder steel with shallower edge angles in Japanese knives.

Good luck with getting the best quality for the price. Those kind of trade-offs are extremely difficult to make... especially when you don’t know how to measure “best”.

Getting a better blade than what you have is the easy part. Almost anything will do that. 

WRT Bose, I think you could have said “.. they aren’t actually as good as the PRICE implies”. One really can’t say that Bose products are crap... there may be better and there may be cheaper (but maybe not at the same time). Shun has a fair number of haters too; some had bad experiences and some just don’t like them because they are too commercialized. Even if they were free some folks wouldn’t want one. But calling them crap is a bit extreme. See the similarities between Bose and Shun?

Good luck figuring out what’s really important to you.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

As a completaside... have you ever researched that term, reference, as it is used in consumer stereo gear. Generally a marketing term that is only loosely correlated with engineering or performance specifications. I fell for that one many years ago with RSL speakers. Not bad, maybe even generally good, and quite affordable... but that's mostly why they were used in many studios... not really because they had any magical "reference" qualities.

And just like with knives, there were schisms of opinion. Read this; I'm one of those who are still using their speakers 40 years later with several refoamings...

https://rslspeakers.com/our-story/

Speakers, knives, and wives share something in common... if you choose well, maintain them as required, and are not extreme in opinion/needs... you'll likely not need to replace them for a long, long time!


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Ahh me, my reading does get creative at times, as I thought you indicated your were a professional chef. Hmmfff.

How do you sharpen your knives, that is, what exactly are you using?


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

brianshaw said:


> WRT Bose, I think you could have said ".. they aren't actually as good as the PRICE implies". One really can't say that Bose products are crap... there may be better and there may be cheaper (but maybe not at the same time).





brianshaw said:


> As a completaside... have you ever researched that term, reference, as it is used in consumer stereo gear.


Yes, PRICE is what I meant and should have said. As far as the word "reference" is concerned...that is to me just the model name of the speakers. Takes more than just speakers to get reference.



rick alan said:


> How do you sharpen your knives, that is, what exactly are you using?


Just a Work Sharp Guided system. I realize with higher quality knives I'll probably need appropriate stones, but this is great for my cheap-o knives.


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## Eli Small (Jul 18, 2018)

I don't know if I dare comment but here goes. I personally found myself in the same position not so long ago, I was in a kitchen store on the coast of Maine and the owner swore by wustys. I looked at the classic Ikon and when I handled it I found that the handle was very comfortable, however when I more closely examined the classic, I found that the only thing I paid extra for was the handle. The blade was essentially the same and when I looked at the steel composition on their website, I found that it was the same for their high end knives.
Fast forward a few months when I found myself in a Williams Sonoma, I began a discussion with one of the workers and he swore by Shun. I do share your opinion on how well shun feels in your hand and they are a very sharp knife. Another thing I noticed was that they did offer different types of steel as opposed to Wüsthof. Shun is mostly made of carbon steels which due to the tighter grain of the steel allows a razor edge to be reached, however the Damascus they offer is more likely to chip than their other steels due to the nature of Damascus. Damascus as you most likely know is composed of differing hardness steels folded in so as to add support from the stiff steel while making it easy to sharpen. This also makes it hold an extremely sharp edge, but the were the two differing steels meet is delicate and tends to chip. If I were to buy their knives I would find on that is made with their blue steel, which refers to grade, not color.
Finally we arrive at Zwilling, these are the knives I turn to personally enjoy using, however as with Wüsthof their blades that are made in Germany are made with the same steel and profile. (They do offer cheaper knives that are produced in China which are stamped steel, meaning that are punched from a sheet of steel. While these are sharp I would not recommend them for someone who plans to do a lot of cooking) I personally use their four star line, however it is a bolstered knife which with a lot of use can present problems. It is a partial tang knife which means that the handle is not as strong as one with a full tang but I have never run into any issues and it makes the handle a little lighter. I have friend who received a 5-piece set of Zwilling pros around 20 years ago and while I haven't used them, I did sharpen them for them and they take a very nice edge. I didn't really enjoy the handle but that has more to do with personal preference then actual quality.
If you are looking for affordable knives with good quality then I would recommend victorinx they are the best bang for your buck.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

Eli Small said:


> If you are looking for affordable knives with good quality then I would recommend victorinx they are the best bang for your buck.


Interesting. I'd have never thought about them. They're "just" the Swiss Army people. I like the Grand Maitre in rosewood! ...but it looks to be as heavy as that beast of a Wusthof I held. I think I'd want to find a place to handle first. I'd also like to find more specs on them. That Wusthof was REALLY handle-heavy.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Eli is mostly spot on, except that all wustys and henk/zwil are stamped, the only thing that is hot-pressed are those terribly worse than useless full bolsters (well the half-bolsters too), which do nothing so much as get in the way sharpening and cusing many knivesto come through bent, mostly to the right it seems. Relatively poor steel, thick edges and big inefficient round bellies. Shun really only differs as it's better steel and lighter handle (still rather heavy by Japanese standards). A Tojiro DP is a significant improvement over Shun premier and classic and at significantly less money.

vg-10 is not the best steel to sharpen, even experienced sharpeners find most vg-10 offerings a bit of a pain, you really have to know how to deburr. It's an unexciting steel from my perspective. Gets sharp but doesn't stay sharp for long, though it does hold a serviceable edge well. Speaking of JCK offerings, Hattori does a good job heat treating V-10, and that's the important part.

My recommendations here introductory level would be all Geshin Stainless, good steel and nice thin grind. But for the Gyuto/chefs you might try the Takamura Chromax, and don't sweat the mismatch in handle. These are a very affordable and a very good introduction to Japanese knives. You'll have plenty of money left over for sharpening supplies.

JCK have lots of nice offerings, their Deep Impact series is the pick out of your selections. Too bad the Geshin Ikazuchi is out of stock. Blue super is reactive, but significantly less than lower alloy carbons. Just make sure you the edge dry.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

rick alan said:


> A Tojiro DP is a significant improvement over Shun premier and classic and at significantly less money.
> 
> vg-10 is not the best steel to sharpen, even experienced sharpeners find most vg-10 offerings a bit of a pain, you really have to know how to deburr. It's an unexciting steel from my perspective. Gets sharp but doesn't stay sharp for long, though it does hold a serviceable edge well. Speaking of JCK offerings, Hattori does a good job heat treating V-10, and that's the important part.
> 
> ...


Excellent information, thank you. 
Nice to know about the VG-10. I was kind of assuming it wasn't anything special. 
Looks like most of the Gesshin Stainless is sold out. I kind of like the Takamura Chromax.

Your recommendations are knives with a higher HRC. I was tending to lean away from those because of that and greater chance of chipping. Bad thinking?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

TheSon said:


> Excellent information, thank you.
> Nice to know about the VG-10. I was kind of assuming it wasn't anything special.
> Looks like most of the Gesshin Stainless is sold out. I kind of like the Takamura Chromax.
> 
> Your recommendations are knives with a higher HRC. I was tending to lean away from those because of that and greater chance of chipping. Bad thinking?


There's more to the story. Chipping depends on a lot of factors - The type of steel (some can handle higher hardness), how thin they ground it, the angle the edge is sharpened at, what you cut, what you cut on, how hard you push down

60 or 61 HRC is okay for me if it's made well and used as intended. I have a few at 62. I don't go for super hard steels like 64+ but that's just my preference.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

I picked up a Chromax 210mm gyuto late last year. Sharpest OOTB edge I've ever seen and they can be chippy, but with a micro bevel the edge becomes more robust. I traded it recently for a different 240 gyuto as that's my preference. As for VG-10 it's a good steel and depending on the heat treat can be a great steel. My new Hiromoto has a VG-10 core, but Master Nagao's heat treat is spot on. This knife is a pleasure to use.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Is there still any Hiromoto stock left anywhere? I see only the 210 *Tenmi Jyuraku*
gyuto left in stock at JCK.

Geshin seemed to have everything in the stainless line except the 210 gyuto, and perhaps the Chromx is a little much for you to deal with at this time. Not to worry, there are lots of knives to consider, just have to see what's in stock, or wait a bit for restocking.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

I got one of the last 240 tenmi jyurakus left from Koki and it's an amazing knife. I have an older Hiro 270 AS gyuto that is my heavy duty workhorse. It's sad Master Nagao retired with no apprentice - it's the end of a lineage in high performance knives.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

rick alan said:


> ... perhaps the Chromx is a little much for you to deal with at this time...


A little much? Is that what mike9 was saying, they can be chippy but more robust with a micro bevel?

It's sounding like the JCK Deep Impact the most appropriate. I'm in no rush and could wait for the Gesshin Stainless to be back in stock, however long that takes...


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

You'll still have to address the art of sharpening at some point. Free hand is best IMO - no jigs, or gimmicks will get your knife to work for you the way you want it to. The Chromax is an excellent knife, but despite its super sharp OTTB edge it requires "tuning" to your specs. That's all I was saying.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

And of course Tanaka does a great job with VG-10 also, and at a very affordable price, along with blue 2 and ginsan steel. Like all good Japanese knives these days it's just a matter of making up your mind on an item so you don't need to think long about pulling the trigger when in stock.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Another thing about chipping, there is what is known as the "factory edge," where the metal near the very edge is embrittled from heat treat, being exposed to conditions right next to the surface. My Takamura, about 65rc, was quite chippy until going through quite a number of light sharpenings. Now it is no more prone to micro chipping than many knives around 61rc. Actually I think you'd find the $125 very well spent. You will have to use good technique of course, but just take it slow. Same with the Deep Impact and Geshin Stainless. So don't let it stop you on any for these. Get a 210 gyuto, that will be your most useful knife, and start enjoying it. Get some stones while you're at it, you'll enjoy that too.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

mike9 said:


> You'll still have to address the art of sharpening at some point. Free hand is best IMO - no jigs, or gimmicks will get your knife to work for you the way you want it to. ...


As stated, I've been using the Work Sharp Guided Sharpening System. Is that part of how you mean gimmick? The abrasive plate holder pivots for curved edges. Otherwise, it's just a manual sharpener with 17* and 20* guides...which I understand don't match the 15* of most knives I'm looking at.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

All you need to hold an angle is a visual reference. Get a dime-store compass, cut some triangles in thin cardboard, harden with superglue and there you are. CKTG has a plastic set for $10, an outrageous price for what you're getting, but still cheap enough for the convienience.


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## mike9 (Jul 13, 2012)

TheSon said:


> As stated, I've been using the Work Sharp Guided Sharpening System. Is that part of how you mean gimmick?


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

hahaha
I get that...I don't really "USE" the angle guide. I've always questioned..."Why do I have to have an angle guide and can't just sharpen by feel?" 
Admittedly, I do like the pivoting plate. I've always been uncomfortable with rotating knives as I slide. It's always been because I felt the surface was too short. With the Work Sharp, the 6" plates feel great...since they pivot. 
I can manage the angle. I'll either learn to manage the short sharpener, or get stones that are longer.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Yah, with most stones you can both feel and hear when you hit the edge, but of course having a good visual is another useful aid.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

I've requested notification when the Gesshin Stainless and Takamura Chromax (Petty and Santoku) knives are in stock. When either has them all, I'll order.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

The Gesshin Stainless 210mm Gyuto was in stock, so I ordered it. I figured I shouldn't wait for the others to be in stock because then this one might be OUT. 
I haven't used it yet, but I like the edge shape and overall weight. It's a little handle-heavy, but nothing like the Wusthof I mentioned before. 
I don't care for the handle shape. I didn't recognize it would be so different from my Chicago Cutlery knife, where the back end of the handle is contoured like the front end. It'll only make cutting from the handle different, because pinch grip brings the pinky up from the end. 
I'll update when I've used it a bit. 

I also ordered a Shun 9-piece set because it was $120 lower than usual. I figure it's worth it to give them a try.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Congrats of the Geshin! If we knew you were really concerned about handle weight would have recommended the Wa version.

What shun set? Even at half price these "sets" are really not worth it. Most of the "items" in these sets are not worth having.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

rick alan said:


> Congrats of the Geshin! If we knew you were really concerned about handle weight would have recommended the Wa version.


My mis-speak. The weight isn't an issue. With the Wusthof, the handle was really heavy and made handling awkward. 
After handling the Gesshin, it's very nicely balanced and I like it. I think the thickness of the butt threw me off. I somehow had the illusion that it was handle-heavy. 
Nice knife!

As for Shun...I'll probably send them back. It's the 9-piece Premier. They just don't feel the same. Loved them in the store, but they're...different.


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## TheSon (Feb 9, 2019)

ok...I ordered the Takamura Chromax 210mm. 
I couldn't stand it and need to compare the Takamura Chromax, Gesshin Stainless, and Shun. 

Yes, I ordered the finish-sharpening on the Takamura.


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