# Looking for some japanese knife info



## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Hello all. The stickied knife thread was immensely useful, and has helped me quite a bit, but I really need some more info.

I am an unemployed non-professional cook, with a minimal amount of formal training, looking for culinary work, but currently host small to medium sized group dinners every couple of weeks, and I have yet to get my hands on my own (preferably 8", 10" feel a bit long for me) chefs knife. I am currently using a santoku, boning, and parring knives for most of my knife work, but am unsatisfied with these. I do pinch grip, and I currently own and use a steel but have little experience sharpening my own knives, and would likely get a cheaper quality spare chefs knife to practice with (as well as I need one for some light informal teaching, and for when people assist me in cooking anyway. I would certainly take suggestions for a $50 or less competent 8" chefs knife to learn sharpening on.). I am experienced and skilled enough not to do anything particularly stupid to ruin my knives. I am looking for one that I may potentially use daily, or one I may use only every couple of weeks, or potentially one for each. Aesthetic quality is of some value due to my often open cooking environment for groups.

I have limited experience with professional knives, but find myself enamored by Japanese knives. I find the Shun to feel very natural and comfortable, with a good weight and sharpness. I have tried Global, but just don't find them comfortable, the weighting feels very unnatural to me. I don't feel I need the heft of German style knives, so am not looking for one of those in my chefs knife, and just own one Wusthof parring knife.

So, with all that information listed, on to my questions. I would most definitely at this point prefer a Japanese knife, and so as such I would appreciate a bit of a run down on the attributes of some of the better (quality, not just price, obviously) Japanese knives. How it feels in my hand will be the decider, but I want to make the most informed decision possible for my main chefs knife. Budget wise I would be fine spending 100-150$, but would prefer keep it under 200, so 8" knives around this range if anyone would be able to give me a good description that might help me decide between them (brand and model as fitting) would be immensely appreciated, with my particular needs in mind.

Also, there is a Shun facility very local to me that apparently offers to sharpen my knives for me should I purchase from them. Does anyone have experience or opinions on whether having them sharpen my knives is ideal/a good idea?


Sorry for the long post, I believe in informed questions. Thank you all in advance!


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

You have mail.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Appreciated, though as it stands I appear to be looking to get a backup/starting western style chefs knife such as a Wusthof or Forschner, that I should be able to maintain through a honing steel, which I can learn sharpening on. Then, or still, perhaps a Shun, which I can have sharpened for free by the manufacturer locally, unless I am given some good suggestions for other brands that I can go and try my hand on. I am am going to find a supplier locally with some MAC knives, as far as I read these can be maintained fairly well for my volume of usage with the resources at hand.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

No prob. Good luck to you in your studies. Ask us a lot of questions.:lips:


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye. Luckily the posts around here have helped teach me a huge amount about what is out there, and what I want. I would like to know the details about the japanese style brands and models at ~150$ and less in 8 and 10" chefs knives, so that I know what brands to go looking after, which once I am able to drive in a few days I will be actively searching after (surgery yesterday, currently on 4 different medicines). Many of threads around here have detailed some of these brands, so that I see myself at the aforementioned position of likely needing to learn how to sharpen a knife properly so that I don't end up with a knife I can't maintain, or one that is prohibitively expensive because I can't sink 400$ into both knife and sharpening stones for now.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm going to beat BDL to it:

1. Carbon or stainless?
2. Sharpening plan and budget?

Off the cuff, I'd recommend a King 1000/250-grit combo waterstone, a Togiharu 8" INOX chef's knife, plus a piece of heavy float glass and a pack of wet/dry 400-grit sandpaper from your local hardware store. Grand total should be around $125.

But that assumes (a) you want stainless, and (b) you're going to learn how to sharpen freehand.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

As far as metal type, I'm still quite new at learning the knife game, and am open to suggestions there. I don't mind spending time to maintain my blades, after having learned how to properly do so. I have an old set of not particularly impressive kitchen knives that I can practice sharpening on, which have probably been needing to be sharpened for 20 years.

Budget as mentioned would preferably total under 200$, landing me with a preferably mid-high quality knife to fit my aforementioned needs. Based on the information rendered I would then head off to the numerous kitchen supply stores and see how the promising models felt.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Carbon steel rusts and requires maintenance that stainless needs a lot less. To oversimplify a very complicated issue, for a given price you generally get more value in a carbon knife than a stainless one, but there are enough exceptions that I wouldn't push anyone on it. I think the most crucial question about carbon steel is whether you are absolutely always going to be the only one every touching the knife in question. If you leave it damp and it rusts, it's your own silly fault, and you can polish and stuff to punish yourself and then not do it again. But if somebody else does it, it's incredibly infuriating, and in the long run it does damage the knife.

As to budget, I meant how much budget for sharpening equipment. If the grand total is to be under $200, and ideally less, I think I'd hold to my current recommendations and just not be bothered if you decide you want a more expensive knife; I would not recommend more expensive sharpening stones at this point.

The business of going to a kitchen store and seeing how things feel doesn't work, I'm afraid, for two reasons. First, essentially none of the really good Japanese knives -- expensive or inexpensive -- will turn up in such a store. Second, quality Japanese knives feel so wildly different from their German counterparts, because they weigh so much less, that you can't seriously compare them without actually cutting a fair bit. For example, my wife has an old 6" Wusthof Trident Grand Prix chef's knife, and I now use a Masamoto that measures 282mm (almost precisely 11"). The Wusthof weighs noticeably more than the Masamoto! I just checked specifications, and apparently the 6" Wusthof weighs 5 1/2 oz., so the Masamoto must be about 5 oz.; since the 10" Wusthof is 10 oz., this means it weighs precisely twice as much as the Masamoto. Clearly you can't compare these knives by holding them in your hand: they're so different as to make comparison meaningless in that "how does it feel?" context.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm with you 75% of the way. The problem then is where to start. Certainly in our circles of friends we have acquaintances with Euro, Sino and/or Nipponese cutting implements.

Sooner or later you have to make your first slice or chop.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I will be the only one handling these knives. They wont even be kept in my kitchen because I don't trust those around me with them. All my knives are either sitting here in front of me on my desk in safe containers, or likewise in the garage. I have four-five classes to go for my undergrad work, which may take up to a year depending on scheduling (philosophy major, it gets hard to schedule in the end), and will likely remain unemployed during this time and just cooking/hosting group dinners. Once I do get out I will be seeking a culinary position again, but we'll deal with that when I get to it (be that seeing if there is a chance my knives would be borrowed, chance of being stolen, if I should bring a work set instead, etc.).

I certainly have no problem spending that much cash on the sharpening stones, that seems quite reasonable, and I can get practice with that whole old knife set I have sitting around that is dulled completely. Are those stones fine to use on stainless steel?

While there will always be attributes of how the knife feels you can really only truly tell after a bit of extended use, there is still a lot to be said for feeling them in store as to how comfortable they are. The global for example I only had to pick up and grip and found myself not liking the weight balance. It feels wrong in my hand. I did get a chance to use the shun for a couple of hours and found that very comfortable, and at least that particular kitchen supply store has vegetables on hand so that I can take a few to do some slicing, at least. I don't want to order something I cant either hold in person, or return.

So given this and the above, are there any other Japanese knives you are able to tell me about that seem to fit my needs?


I really appreciate the help Chris.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris and I both have advanced dregrees in philosophy, btw. So you're in bad company. 

BDL


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Then in theory, at least, you have the option of buying carbon steel. You have to decide how obsessive-compulsive you are: carbon does require more maintenance. It's not a lot, but it's got to be done every single time, or else. As I say, on the whole you get a little more bang for your buck with carbon.
I should hope not: that combo stone is only $25. Yes, you can use it on anything, but you will quickly learn something about different kinds of steels as you sharpen. You will need to flatten it: wet the sandpaper and stick it on the float glass, and then put the stone on the paper and grind it around in as random motions as you can, shifting grips often to keep it even all over. By the time the medium side of the stone has worn just about to nothing, you'll know a lot about sharpening and what you like, and then you can invest in a more expensive stone, but that will probably be a couple years or more.
I don't agree with you, but you're the one buying, not me. So you're limited to what you can find in a shop -- a dramatic limitation.
Unless you live in a city that has a fancy (expensive) specialty cutlery shop stocking high-end Japanese knives, no. You probably want Shuns. What else is there? You don't like Globals -- fair enough -- and little else is going to turn up in any shop other than the various Germans, especially Wusthof and Henckels, and they weigh a ton and IMO are irritating and overpriced. If you're lucky enough to find a shop that stocks a range of Japanese brands, go ahead and look. But the only shops like this in the US that I know of are in New York, and I believe in the Seattle area. There might be one in the LA area somewhere -- BDL would probably know. Other than that it's all online shopping. You might see if there is a large restaurant supply store in your area: they may stock a wider range of things, but it's hard to predict.

If you're limited to what's in a store, don't worry about the carbon/stainless issue: you'll find stainless only, probably.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I had looked through some of the product catalogs of some of my local kitchen supply stores and had thought had seen a greater selection than this, but aye all I'm mostly seeing are Shun, Global, and limited Masahiro. This is indeed a very considerable limitation, and I don't want to be that held back from getting a high quality knife, and one that I can maintain personally, but I want to ensure that it is very comfortable in my hand. So at this point I'm not quite sure what to do. What happens if I purchase a knife online and end up being unsatisfied with how it feels in my hand, or based off my comfort with the balance and feel of Shun, and my primary use of pinch grip are you able to make some likely fitting suggestions of those that are not in my local stores? Obviously I'm really new to the knife game, being used to using mostly non-professional knives, and a limited selection of pro-grade. I'm just rather lost as to how to ensure I will get something that satisfies my needs and personal tastes (naturally hard when you don't have much of a developed personal taste).


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not the guy to answer this, really -- I bought my knives in Japan. I think the thing to do is to buy from a relatively large outfit like Korin or Epicurean Edge or the like, where they have a clearly-stated returns policy. If you have questions about that policy, ask before you buy. Don't buy knives on ebay or similar, even if the prices are lower; many of those folks are very honest and great to deal with, but you don't want to take that chance.

Beyond this, I leave it to the many other posters here who've bought such knives in the U.S.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

In terms of handle comfort, some knives are notoriously good. The three "Ms" by way of example: MAC, Masamoto, and Misono. If you like Wusthof classic at all, you're going to love those. Some knives have known peculiarities. For instance, Hiromoto handles are narrow. Togiharu handles a bit short. Glestain is awkward for big hands. Etc. The more specific you are about which knives are under consideration, the more specific we can be about issues.

People who talk about "balance," generally don't know much about knives or how to use them. Unless the knives are specifically balanced, like Gude Viking or Global, the balance point changes with the length of the knife.

Rat tail knives are more balance forward than full tang knives. Longer knives are more balance forward than shorter knives. German profile knives, because of their bolster design, are slightly more balance neutral (balanced at or just in front of the finger guard) than French knives. Knives with finger guards (most European and American which actually have bolsters) tend to be more neutral than knives without bolsters or without finger guards.

Japanese manufactured knives are almost always considerably lighter than their western manufactured counterparts, this tends to make them feel less balanced. In the store, the balance seems important. However, over even a short time (a couple of meals at most) weight matters a lot more; and the imbalance, such as it is, begins to feel natural.

I suggest contacting MAC through MAC USA. They have a pretty good distribution system and you may be able to find one you can wave around and pretend to cut with -- if that's important to you. (MAC also has excellent customer service and a great guarantee. The MAC Pro should be on your short list.)

Some others: Masamoto VG; Togiharu G-1 (slightly more affordable clone of the Masamoto, F&F and handle suffer a bit by comparison); Misono Moly (great handle, okay steel); Misono UX-10 (great looks, great ergonomics, maybe too expensive); Hiromoto G3 (great stainless); Hiromoto AS (excellent carbon core, surrounded by stainless); and the Hattori forum knife (same review as the Misono UX-10).

I'll need a signed waiver before I get into a discussion of carbons. Basically you want to look at Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, Thiers Issard **** Elephant Sabatier, K-Sabatier, Masamoto CT, Masamoto HC (would probably be my first choice if I were starting over, but expensive), "Nogent" Sabatier, "Massif" Sabatier, and "Canadian" Sabatier. For the record, I own a bunch of Sabatiers -- most of them pretty old.

Shun are not bad knives, and neither are Masahiro. But they aren't in the same league as the other Japanese knives manufactured. That said, they're much better than Wusthof or almost any other western knife -- at least in blade quality. I'm going to paste a link to something I just wrote in another thread that goes into some detail about Shun, Wusthof Classic and their ilk: http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/cooki...tml#post278180

If, after all that, you're still at all interested in Wusthof, you might want to take a look at the "Le Cordon Bleu" Wusties at Cutlery and More. The LCBs preceded the Ikon lines, use the same steel (X50CrMoV15), the same cut down bolsters no finger guard on the choil, and are ground to the same 15* bevel (Classics are ground to 20*). They seem to have been discontinued, although they're still on Wusthof's website they aren't available from very many retailers. Cutlery and More has a few shapes and lengths, and have them at a very good price. They may be the best deal going in German knives.

Hope this helps,
BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks BDL, that does help quite a bit. It is important to me to handle them in person before there is no turning back, but this has been in part because of things like the Shun feeling very comfortable and the global feeling very off, both in grip and balance (whether this would actually matter or not) and having a general dislike of the heft of German knives. This looks, however, like if I can expect to get used to most Japanese knives that aren't specifically unusual that I can probably deal with purchasing one without handling it first, I just don't want any unpleasant surprises like I may have gotten if I'd purchased a global online.

If that doesn't sound like complete nonsense to you, at least. If I don't have to expect there being a chance of not being comfortable with the knife I purchase then I will focus more on the quality of the knife and go from there.

Will start looking through those, and try to find some specific info on them, but I need to pass out again (still recovering from surgery, has me napping every hour or so).


Thanks all for the great info and suggestions.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

My thoughts and prayers to you. My wife had some surgery that was dicey. She's fine now, we dodged a bullet. But her resistance is down.

Take good care of yourself.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Much appreciated BDL, but worry not. I'm young and it was just a minor oral surgery, it just has me pretty wiped out sleeping through most of the day. If I'm up more than an hour or so it makes my ears and eyes feel as if I've been using them nonstop for 30 hours. Funny thing is the day I came home I was feeling fine, went to a party.

Glad to hear about your wife though. I wish her well in getting back to health.


I am however, getting back in bed before being able to say anything particularly constructive. I have somewhere I need to go tonight, so need to rest up for it.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I'd like to relate a humorous comment my friends and I make on this topic.

After reading some Japanese sword and polishing history books, we glean sharpening ideas, procedures and tools from the literature. Something as simple as nagura and water makes our edges sharper. In many cases we are baffled.

Playfully, we comment, "After 1,000 years of Japanese cutlery expertise, it looks like they finally got it right..."

To many newbs seeing real-deal Japanese cutlery for the first time they comment on how odd the stuff looks. No question, a katana does not look like a European saber, a nakiri has a blunt nose, the blade blanks look like metal plywood, the handles are faceted, the bevels are like mirrors, etc.

But in the hands of a pro, a properly prepared gyuto will slice through a rolled grass mat like dicing a stalk of celery.

Many of my clients have gone "all Japanese." One client who pours concrete for a living bought an Emerson, did a little reading on the "odd ball" shape, then acquired a Japanese petite knife--made the mistake of letting his mother use it--and now he makes my house payments.

He has a yellow ribbon on his pick-up truck, but if I want to sell him a knife, it had better be Japanese.

Those who polish Japanese edges refer to the craft as "the curse." You cannot sharpen those edges without outright awe and respect. Once exposed, you love the edge, the knife, the history, and the performance.

I usually tell a newb who is thinking of a upgrade to buy a good quality gyuto and a smaller Yaxell Ran paring knife. The newb can easily make this transaction for under 200 dollars. On many knives I offer "life sharp."

After all these years, and numerous clients, I have never taken one of these knives back or replaced them with a Euro knife. In many cases the client sits at my kitchen table when I sharpen his knife, enjoys a little cappuccino, and then obliquely asks if I have other knives for sale. Any Japanese knives.

Gee, after 1,000 years...


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

There really is a special allure to Japanese blades and their style. I have actually always been a knife and sword enthusiast, and do own a few Samurai blades.

I know many of the responses you guys give have been said repeatedly on other threads, and forums so I have searched through a lot of that and have gained a lot of info, but feel compelled to ask explicitly. Are you, BDL, and any others, able to describe some of those Japanese knives you listed, what the attributes and qualities of them are that may motivate me to buy one over the other, including how easy/hard maintaining them is, and if any of them permit steels (and what type) to hone them.

My sharpening stone is in the mail, and I have a set of knives crying out to be sharpened, and in a couple of weeks after my next paycheck I will be in the position to buy my new gyuto if I have found one I believe will be right for me.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

On that we agree. I truly believe that Japanese knives achieve that allure for the same reason that people like the Bat-Mobile.

_"Things that are dangerous are exciting. And things that are truly fun must be dangerous."_

Yikes, you can get a kitchen knife at K-Mart, drag it through that grinding thingie on the back of a can-opener and actually cook dinner. Why does anyone need a Japanese knife? In truth, no one "needs" such a knife.

However, a Japanese knife is a precise instrument forged by years of expertise and refinement. It is quirky, demanding, ridiculously sharp, usually expensive and dangerous to a careless newb. Why would anyone want that?

Well, if you watch my bike wind out third gear on an acceleration ramp, no one has to explain "go fast" to you. Japanese knives provide the same adrenaline rush, a condition you can feel just watching a proficient chef at his calling.

As you know, I sharpened a test mule and took it with me to a Japanese restaurant with a small party of friends. We ate by a grill "in the round" while the chef juggled condiment shakers and lit an onion pyramid aflame.

Before the chef made his first cut with my knife, he grinned and twirled it through his fingers.

*That* my friends, was worth the entire cost of the dinner!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Al,

My answer is, "yes."

I need some help from you in terms of narrowing down what you want, how much you're willing to spend, how much time and money you're willing to spend on sharpening tools and learning to sharpen, what your knives skills are like, whether you plan on spending time on your skills, whether you're interested in carbon (as opposed to stainless), whether you're interested in western or Japanese handles, etc.

The more you tell me about you, the better I can narrow down the selection of the knives I know something about to the point where I can give you useful information. There's no sense in talking about the myriad virtues of a Ikkanshi Tadatsuna shiro-ko wa-gyuto if you're not willing to spend more than $300, aren't interested in carbon steel, aren't interested in a Japanese handle, and aren't interested in climibng a fairly steep sharpening mountain. 

That said, I've written quite a bit about several stainless knives in the economic sweetspot around $200 for a western handled gyuto. These include MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Hiromoto G no. 3, Hiromoto AS, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, and Togiharu G-1. 

If you're amenable to carbon, the list includes: Masamoto CT, Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite and five lines of Sabatier carbons (what you give up in hardness you get back in other attributes). 

If you can spend a little more you might also consider the Misono UX-10, Ikkanshi Tadatsuna western series, and the Masamato HC (expensive carbon). 

That's something like eighteen knives. You can easily see why I wouldn't want to compare and contrast all of them if you can help me edit the list a little... well... a lot. 

Anyway, let me know more about you and we'll get into specifics.

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, tourist. When it comes down to it, a big part of why I want such a nice knife is that it is fun. It is a _Pleasure _to use a superior knife instead of something from the average bed bath and beyond knife section. They are artisans tools and have many benefits, but you can never deny the sheer enjoyment that can come from them. The fact that I can have fun shopping carrots and not be a madman by necessity.

So back to my particular situation. I'd like to keep the knife budget below 200, with a preference of 100-150 but if I find something worth taking it closer to 200 I certainly will. I am in the position and hold the will to perform extra maintenance as necessary to keep up my blade, so more upkeep time is not a deterrent on blade material. I would be open to having a carbon blade, but have no real experience with them so take that as you will. I treat my knives excellently, and will be the only one using them so proper maintenance will be enforced.

My knife skills are good, but I am not at this time a professional cook. I've had some formal training with my knife work, but my current knife demands aren't from a professional atmosphere either. My sharpening skills don't exist yet, but I have some 10 very dull knives of various type, and some good suggestions on sharpening books, and as a currently unemployed individual I have the time and dedication to learn and learn well.

This is part of the reason I'd love to get more experience in store to get my basic understanding more well rounded; I don't know my preference for grip style. Today I was actually feeling well and got out of the house, so soon I can certainly get a better hold on knife handle styles...if any of the Japanese style knives in the area have anything besides western style handles. As mentioned the local supply stores only hold three Japanese brands on location at the moment that I have seen.

I'd prefer not spend a crazy amount on sharpening equipment for the time, especially as for the foreseeable future I wont be doing a large yield of cooking. I have the sharpening stone in the mail that was suggested earlier by Chris. I'd be willing to extend my sharpening resources somewhat, but it really depends on what that entails, and depends on how much the knife itself will cost. I wouldn't be willing to invest another 100 into sharpening equipment at this time.

I appreciate your time very much BDL. I know this can take quite a bit of time, so I'm certainly happy to narrow down as much as possible.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I think you're going about this badly. Specifically, I think if you approach the issue this way you're going to end up unhappy.

Relatively "traditional" Japanese chefs generally use carbon steel knives, and sharpen them every day. One can get romantic about this, but you shouldn't: it's a crucial task in a professional kitchen, but it's a means to an end, not blade-worship. The knives that matter most, that need to be sharpest and of highest quality, are those that cut food that is not thereafter processed in any major way, e.g. by heat. The less processing that happens after the cut, the more crucial the knife is. Thus a fish-slicer (yanagiba) is an object that receives a kind of fetishism, because you slice the fish and serve immediately, and in sushi places you often do this in front of the guest. The old-fashioned vegetable knife (usuba) very often produces material unprocessed before serving, so again it's a big deal, but it's not quite so direct a connection between cut and table, and thus it's a little lower down, as it were. As for butchering fish, done with a deba, all you care about is that it does its job: ugly as sin makes no difference, and you treat the knife kind of the way a professional baker might treat his Hobart stand-mixer: essential, loved, cared for, but still a honking big thing you shove in the corner.

In this scale, the gyuto doesn't figure at all. These Western knives are used for things that get cooked, especially meat. What's more, in high-end Japanese cooking even today meat is not handled with the kind of precision and delicacy that one sees in a really excellent Western restaurant. They cut it in cubes or slices or whatever, and that's about it.

So when you go to buy knives, you have to realize that if you're focusing on a gyuto, which you almost certainly ought to be, you're getting a bargain price for a knife that's really no big deal, almost an afterthought. I have a Masamoto KS, 270mm. In carbon gyutos, one could argue for it being the best standard-production knife there is, and certainly nobody would object to its being put in the top 10. It cost me a packet: about $260, in Japan, and would cost you about $325 I believe. It is indeed a lovely knife, the finest kitchen implement of any kind I have ever owned. A pleasure to sharpen, takes a terrifying edge easily and holds it, beautifully balanced. For me, it's a thing of beauty: that irregular gray patina looks, if you'll pardon the over-elaborate metaphor, like the eyes of the creepy-attractive contract killer in your favorite movie of the type. It looks like "I kill, and I like it, and that's all there is." I like that -- very, very cool.

But if I wanted a comparable usuba, I'd be looking at $500, give or take. Possibly more, if I thought "comparable" meant honyaki. And for a comparable honyaki yanagiba, the sky's the limit -- I could easily spend over $1000.

If you want the elegant brilliance of the sword-maker in your kitchen, a gyuto isn't the place to look. They're wonderful knives, and I wish more people bought them, but they're not the ultimate in the knife-maker's art. If that's what you're looking for, start saving your pennies and buy a knife... that will be totally useless to you. You and I cannot really appreciate the difference between a $150 yanagiba and a $1000 one, assuming the prices are fairly set. We can't sharpen or cut at that kind of level. And I'm saying nothing at all about a set of knives I have handled in which each of the four knives cost roughly what a Honda Civic costs. What do I know? They're very pretty, yes. And? I mean, what's the difference between those and the $1000 "cheapies"? You've got to be a very high-end specialist to tell the difference, and I remain somewhat uncertain as to whether there really is one at a functional level.

In short, what you want is a knife that will serve you wonderfully. The knife you want is surely Japanese, and will set you back a packet of change. But don't associate it with swords and art and all that: you're just setting yourself up to start slavering after something you can't afford and wouldn't be able to appreciate.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, let's try pinning it down a bit. Go to Japan Woodworker and see if you can find a knife close to the size, shape and style you are going to need. No need to narrow it down to the final choice, just point us in the right direction.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

As I've said...I am looking for a good and functional knife. As far as aesthetics go I don't want something that is literally ugly because I do cook and host group dinners regularly, and I do want to enjoy having it, but I am not looking for a samurai cooking knife. I appreciate the tool I am looking for as an evolution of an artisans craft of more than a thousand years, and it is designed for an artisan. I'm not going to sacrifice getting an excellent tool for something with Damascus like cladding because its pretty.

I will take a look over at that site and see what more I can do to narrow the field, but need to grab dinner first.

EDIT:
So with a bit of time re-browsing for handles in mind and some thought to it, the handle below is probably more of what I'm looking for and will be comfortable. I have never worked with the hex handles, but don't imagine I'd like those too much. Without handling various styles I cant really say more as far as the handle goes without it completely arbitrary or aesthetic. Also, to recap I'm looking for an 8-9" gyuto/chefs knife style, and prefer the lighter weight of the Japanese style. I have no preference concerning bolsters or finger guards. Is there any other info I can try to provide?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Go to the Chef (gyuto) knife section and look at the 7.5 inch damascus gyuto, part number 11.625.180 and the price is about 160 bucks.

It's a place to start.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Didn't see your post before editing my previous one. 

Anything in particular about that knife I should be looking at? As in to compare it to what I think I want/need, specific attributes about it that I may like, etc? ( I do love the spelling error in their description though).


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, I didn't mean that this knife was the be all, end all. I just meant to offer the example as a starting point.

That model is of average length, average price, etc. My guess is that you want 'better,' but we have to begin at some level.

Having said that, that "average" model would be a tremendous upgrade for most home food hobbyists. I sharpen that range of products all of the time, and the edges get very spooky.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I get that, I just mean I'm not sure whether you were kinda holding it up like 'how about this' or asking me if there were certain attributes about it I liked. Is this knife a suggestion?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Both, actually.

That knife is sort of an all-arounder. In the Asian vernacular it's a "wa-gyuto." All that means is "cow knife." Think of it as a Swiss Army Knife for food.

But my wife runs her entire kitchen with a knife like that, but hers is a tad shorter.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chico, I don't mean to be rude, but it isn't a "wa-gyuto" in any vernacular or language. If you want to get all Japanese about it, it's a _yo-gyuto_. That means it's a gyuto with a western handle. _Wa-gyuto_ have Japanese handles, different tangs, and (often but not always) what appears to be a small notch between the handle and the topline called a _machi _and is really a continuation of the tang (_nakago_).

You did translate_ gyuto_ correctly. I've heard speculation about how "cow sword" or "cow knife" came to mean "chef's knife" but no theory seemed to come with better indicia of reliability than any other. I'm currently agnositc but Chris may know something I don't.

Most Japanese manufactured chef's knives are French, as opposed to German, profiles -- especially along the edge. However a number of gyuto have longer toplines, followed by a short-radius curved drop to a low point -- similar to awestern_ sheep's foot_ profile or _kamagata_ usuba -- as opposed to the classic French spear point. On the other hand, there are a fair number of spear points as well.

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Really, by the description and my very basic knowledge base of kitchen knives at this point I can't really tell you anything by looking at it. The handle in the pic I posted looks most comfortable, but when they describe a knife as having 31 layers, or one ultra hard core with soft cladding, I understand the idea of the functionality of the process and materials, but I really can't go 'ahhh...yes, that does look the best of the options', which is really what I come to you guys asking. Most of the knives I look at in Japan wood worker and other sites look like good quality professional knives, I don't know how to tell between them to know what is the best fit for me, so I can't really do any looking through them and come up with anything constructive. If there are specific questions I can try to supply the answers to, I'd love to so that we can hopefully point me towards what will fit me best and leave me satisfied with a very functional blade for a long time to come. I just sadly don't know how to go about that beyond asking the willing to lead me as far as possible.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, yes. You're not alone, either. 

Do you want a 31 layer, suminagashi cladding? You do if you really like the pattern. If you don't care one way or the other, or prefer a plainer knife, there are better choices. The knife aesthetic which pleases you best, and the relative importance of cosmetic and utilitarian considerations are things which you need to tell us -- as you volunteered below. 

From the little I've heard, the knife in the picture you posted is a pretty good knife at a pretty price. It's chief claim to fame seems to be the diagonal cut of the bolster which echoes the bolster shape of Misono's UX-10. It is no UX-10 though (more about the UX-10 in another post). 

Again, you're not alone. Japan Wood Worker has a fairly well chosen selection. So do Epicurean Edge, Japanese Chef Knife, and Korin to name a few other dealers (and increase the number of confusing choices). 

I expect the particular knife you were looking at, at 7-1/2" was too small and too small a handle to be your go-to gyuto. There are a number of choices which make better sense from an ergonomic standpoint. 

The "best" word is troublesome. The best I can do is discuss some good choices. Some will be better than others, but there is no best, not even a best for you. 

At the end of the day you're going to be choosing according to your own priorities regarding looks, price, steel type, whether you're partial to the handle, and so on. There will always be some guess work involved, but there would be just as much (or maybe almost as much or maybe even more) guesswork if you had the opportunity for a typical in-store demo. You don't really know that much about a knife until you've used it for a few weeks and sharpened it a couple of times. 

At the end of the day, all we can hope for is to limit your selections to a pool in which there are only good choices. For what it's worth, that's very doable. Try not to be impatient. I've written the same, very long, "Part I" of an even longer post, three times -- only to lose it to one computer black hole or another. I'm not sure if I have the energy to finish writing it one more time or not tonight. But hold tight for a little longer.

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I certainly don't expect anything close to 'best' until I am far more experienced in my knifework letting me know what I want and expect out of a knife, and more about knives themselves so that I can more properly understand the difference between them. I just hope with this investment that I will get something that will be functionally adequate and satisfy my general needs for a goodly amount of time. In the end at this point of my career I do expect my ultimate choice to be a guess, I just hope it to be more educated than seeing 10-20 knives or more on the table and knowing that they're all 'good'. I may need to ultimately select something based on saving 50$ and liking the finish better, but what can you do?

Aye, I'm hoping more 8-9". 10" feels too long, but I want something more all purpose. Some meat work, vegetable chopping, and various other general tasks. I don't expect amazing top quality in my knife, but something that is indeed good, obviously relative to my price range of preferably 100-150, possibly up to 200, and fitting my sharpening capacity and budget.

Anything else I can do to narrow this to reduce the large degree of guess work possible, I am very eager to do.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Ya' know, it's beginning to sound more like you're looking for a "system" of implements that enhance your level of cooking. I'm wondering if we're even discussing the same knife.

Maybe it's "knives"?

I do know some very serious food hobbyists that purchase a good quality (but not a top end) mid-size santoku and a decent paring knife.

Heck, in that regard you could buy some Pampered Chef products (for under 100 bucks) and happily work for years until you develop a more refined path.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I do already own both of those, and will switch knives depending on what I want, but still lack a chefs knife.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Okay, that pretty much solves the problem.

I believe JWW sells good stuff at fair market prices and has an admirable customer service track record. If not, I wouldn't rep for them.

(BTW, I get no commission for saying that. You can easily buy their products over the phone or on the 'net. I service only those folks within 1/2 of a tank of gas from my home.)

Go to their gyuto selection, and select a few examples pertaining to size, price and alloy.

Then call their number, punch the #1, and talk to anyone who answers the phone. I know them all, and they are all knowledgeable and polite. Tell them your concerns, and ask more detailed questions.

You'll have an excellent knife in about four days.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Much appreciated Tourist  Is there a way to net you a commission, however, if I do decide to purchase from them? If anyone gets one I wouldn't mind it heading your way.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I appreciate the sentiment, however several years ago I made the decision to never use forums for part of my business.

I hate guys who get a real estate license and then bother everyone at family reunions.

I'm here for light-hearted debate. That's all.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Understood, and respected.

In the next few days I'll likely call them, now that I'm mostly recovered (but have a cold...more down time still. It's been a summer of injuries, ER/chiropractor visits and surgery) I need to put some solid time into my online businesses. Afterwards I'll post up what came out of the call.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I hear ya' cuz it's about the same here. My wife had some surgery, and she's been run-down. As a teacher she catches every little bug from her kids. We thought she had flu or food poisoning this past week.

Try banging some black iron, even if it's a little bit for a short time. It hurts and it gives you something to hate.

I hit it so hard last week that I strained something under my left delt. There's not much I can do about society, so I take it out on striated red muscle.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I've actually been a body builder for about 6-7 years now (assuming that's what you refer to), which has been part of the frustration of this summer. I was getting into the best physical health of my life with a new lifestyle including better food and more time for exercise (long bad relationships can mess up your lifestyle), but then came a lower back muscular injury of unknown origin, a slipped disk in my lower back, and then the first actual exercise injury: tearing my neck and right shoulder a bit during a pullup (apparently looking left is a terrible thing to do during this movement!). So aye, soon as I stop being sick I will be getting back to it and I think my injuries are actually all healed enough that I can run (instead of just bike) for the first time in months, and while I wont be deadlifting for another 6 months, I'll be hitting the weights again shortly.

Despite my cold, I find myself quite awake so have put some more forum reading and research into the matters at hand. Thinking about my particular situation, what limited bits I have gleaned from the websites selling these knives (intending on doing some forum crawling and review reading on them, but posting up my thoughts here), as well as the suggestions made on this forum to other members and in discussion, all bringing me to focus on 4 particular chefs knives.

Masamoto HC 210mm
Misono UX 210mm
Mac Pro 8.5"

Hiromoto G no. 3 210mm 

If at all possible I'd love to get all of your thoughts, those of whom are familiar with these models. I am hoping to find details on the materials used for their blades, how this affects performance, what maintenance measures and skill levels are required in their care, any other important information about them, and whatever possible qualitative assessment between them might be given for my situation (by the way I forget if I mentioned but I probably have in the range of medium sized hands). I hope to weasel much of this elsewhere as well, but these are what has caught my attention most, granted if anyone thought that there was another blade that surpassed these in some noticeable way around the 160 or below range (that being what I have initially found these listed for) I would certainly be open to hearing about it.

Again, I thank you all for the effort and time you have expended on my behalf.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

No prob. As long as you remember I am not a cutler. My views on knives are much like the experiences perceived by a "jailhouse attorney." That is, I accumulate knowledge by doing everything wrong.:lol:

This would be my pick for a personal and prejudiced reason. Having said that, I have never used one in a prelonged and professional setting. I hope a professional chef jumps into this fray. I can buff the edge, but the pro has to sling it.

Well, much like the title "polisher," I am not a body builder--I just steal the same ideas and tools. I lift weights. I'm never going to make the cover of GQ, but I enjoy being a strong old fudd. It's nice to be able to move your own motorcycle. Young pups don't bother me either. (Perhaps they don't want me to fall and break a hip, who knows.)

A personal trainer at my gym has drawn up an in-house version of that P90X idea, which is a slant on the old "Weider Muscle Confusion Technique." Trust me, even after all these years it hurts like ****, and to add, the Gaunlet Stairs are clearly the Seventh Circle of ****.

Never dismiss the value of the mental benefits of lifting. Even in my circle of angry young men I am known as the jokester. But the one bad thing I inherited from my Dad was a mercurial temper. Sometimes (like when I cannot solve a client's problem), I ruminate, beat myself up, play the "tape recording" over and over in my head, and worry too much.

A trip to the gym, intense enough to soak your T-shirt, a long hot shower, and some decent tunes on drive home work wonders. When my wife was ill this past winter I was a lost soul. "Prayer and black iron."


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, it has always been an immensely cathartic activity for me. Being able to change yourself to fit your own goals, seeing the immense amounts I can lift, and just the sheer enjoyment of it. My type of personality is strongly centered around mastery. Not competitiveness, but getting as good as I can get at everything I do, so improving myself through a complicated skill definitely has the appeal! I'm also not looking to be a competition bodybuilder, I've gotten the bulk I want, and mostly work on strength, conditioning, and at this point recovery...

I also had similar anger/temper issues from my father, but I spent a significant chunk of time working on those, and now am the most laid back person I know, and have been for some years. It has served me very well, but I certainly know how that goes.


Aye, the Masamoto may be the best knife of the lot, though I may decide to go against starting with carbon, despite the quality of the blade, because of my inexperience. I want a nice blade, but we'll see.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I still have to work on mine. In the forums, I just put the clown on 'ignore.' If you never start to sizzle you never get out of control. The nice feature about that is the "ignored" doesn't know it and talks to himself for a few days until the light comes on. 

Hmmm. I don't think your list really had a bad choice. Like any other endeavor you have to spend time on the learning curve.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, the learning curve is something I am certainly taking into consideration, which is as mentioned part of why I may stay away from carbon for now, and I do have the old set of ordinary kitchen knives that I will practice sharpening on and if they can hold a good edge after I'm done with them, perhaps I can use those as needed if I feel it necessary.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Al, 

At the end of the day, we can't give you more than a selection of knives, some information about how and why we chose them, and some information about you can best make your own, final decision.
Let's look at five "catch-all" characteristics which allow us to distinguish one knife from another: Ergonomics (including blade profile); Blade Quality (steel alloy); Fit and Finish; and Cosmetics. 

*Ergonomics*: 

Huge subject which includes handle profile, handle size, weight, blade profile, and sometimes balance.

The most common advice for would be knife purchasers is to go to a brick and mortar store and try the knife - to whatever extent the store allows. I don't disagree with this in principle, but believe it's highly overrated. You'll get a sense of why I think so as we get a little deeper into the subject.

_Balance_: 

For obvious reasons, longer knives tend to have their balance point (COG) "blade forward," while shorter knives have it "handle back." The only two major manufacturers who currently attempt to maintain a particular COG throughout their lines are Gude and Global. Gude designs their Viking line to balance way back. Globals are designed to be dead neutral. That said, a bolster tends to create a more neutral COG than otherwise. 

It's a bit of tangential but interesting that a few manufacturers, most notably Furi with its "Coppertail" series, use a soft metal butt plate on their chef's knives with the idea that as metal is lost from the blade through sharpening, the particular knife's balance can be retained by losing metal from the plate. 

_Balance_ makes a huge difference in how a knife feels in the store and is commonly one of the most important factors in choosing when buying at a brick and mortar. Too bad. The truth is that most full-tang chef's knives/gyutos in your chosen length range of 8" to 10" balance very close to the bolster. And, excepting hugely imbalanced knives (one more reason to stay away from 12" knives except for specialty purposes) wherever your go-to gyuto balances -- you'll get used to it pretty quickly. This is especially true if you pinch grip - which allows substantial flexibility in the COG/grip pivot point.

_Pinch grip. Hmmm_. Good knife technique doesn't _absolutely_ require an academically perfect pinch grip. But it does require that you hold your chef's knife in some way so _your knuckles face out instead of down, towards the board_. Unfortunately, the pinch grip and other "proper" grips aren't intuitive; they're learned and require some practice to feel natural. 

On the same hand, the two most intuitive grips are "baseball" and "index finger on the spine." (Parenthetically (by all means note the parentheses, "finger on the spine" is frequently used, even by people with _mad skilz_, for slicing and decorative work.) Anyway, at least for chopping, "baseball" and "finger" get the knuckles "improperly" oriented. There are several consequences. Users typically create extra clearance for their knuckles by orienting the knife on the board in such a way the handle (and the user's knuckles) extends beyond the bottom of the board. This usually ends up with food off the board on the floor.

_Handle Profile_

More germane to our discussion, the handle becomes incredibly important. They use the whole hand - so large handed users require larger and longer handles. Users tend to squeeze their knives hard, which favors formed grips (Wusthof Ikon), rounded grips (Shun and "wa"), and also makes aiming the point difficult - which favors shorter knives. For those and for several other reasons, balance points and handle shapes become increasingly important as you get farther away from "correct" grips. 

At any rate, it should be clear the questions of how you hold a knife and whether you're willing to learn a new way is very important to choice. 
There's nothing magic about the "pinch grip," per se. I know a few people with wonderful skills using other grips - but all of them utilize a thumb/forefinger pinch as the pivot point of the grip. Whatever. The better your grip, the more adaptable it's going to be to a variety of handles. 

So, if you use a baseball or finger grip a short or slender handle will not suit - especially if you have large hands. There are a few otherwise wonderful knives to cross of your list. Most notably, Hiromoto AS and Hiromoto G no. 3. 

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

As noted, I do use pinch grip, and have medium sized hands about, so those aren't huge worries for me with handle profile. And as noted I am mostly looking for specific info about the knife that doesn't present itself in the pictures themselves and the very brief description, such as that I don't understand the virtues, and any potential drawbacks involved in the alloys used and the manner in which they were constructed beyond the basic attributes of a high-carbon blade.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not really sure anyone could find drawbacks in simple daily use. No other than Mick Strider himself opined that no one but a savvy metallurgist could discern the differences in alloys like BG-42 and S30V. For the most part, I agree.

Many of what we refer to as "super steels" are simply high carbon, low chromium alloys with a proper HT. We have sort of created the idea of "uber steels" with advanced HT procedures in ZDP-189 and particle technology as in CPM-154CM.

In fact, after 20 years of sharpening, all I can say for sure is that particle alloys feel "creamier" during sharpening and high chromium knives produce gleaming bevels during aggressive buffing.

For all of the nostalgic talk about carbon steels, they feel 'muddier' and produce a horrid mess on the stones. Realistically, they are not sharper than stainless.

In my hand right now I have a 13 dollar Boker folder made from modern 440C. By 'modern' it appears as it has a higher chromium content and a good HT. It sharpened like a razor, and it has been touched up with three paste and glass buffs.

It is so sharp that I would not hand it over to a newb or a careless individual. There is no doubt in my mind that such people would seriously--and certainly--slice themselves. There is no carbon knife I know of that is keener, hands down.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Mostly with the drawbacks, I am looking for the specifics of any differences between the method of construction and material of the knives, such as if knife X has 32 layers of steel, what does this mean to me? Will this retain its edge longer, or because of the material its more rust and corrosion resistant, etc. The knives I have listed all look like excellent knives, and when I find reviews online most of them are receiving top marks on everything, so I have no decider aside from price and aesthetics at the moment. I am mostly looking at the Mac Pro and the Misono UX-10, but I really don't know what differences there will be between the two besides the price and what I can tell from looking at it.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Some, but not all, Japanese knives are made of two to many layers of steel or steel and iron forge welded together. The steel which goes to the cutting edge is called the hagane, the iron or steel protecting it is called the jigane.

When it comes to gyutos with the suminagashi (like damascus) pattern on both sides like Hattori and Shun the number of layers making up the pattern has no direct effect on performance. For that matter, the pattern itself has no effect on performance either, it's entirely cosmetic. Setting aside the pattern, many gyutos are made with three layers of lamination -- soft stainless, plain or patterned, on the outside, and a harder steel, better suited for the edge, in the center. This is called san-mai (three layers), warikomi (thrust between) or han-warikomi (loosely translated as good warikomi). 

Most of the benefits of san-mai construction go to the manufacturer. For a lot of reasons, san-mai construction saves on costs and waste. However there are some benefits. For instance, when the hagane is high carbon or semi-stainless, the stainless steel cladding makes maintenance simpler by preventing corrosion on the blade body, and slowing it slightly (via electrolysis) on the edge. 

The san mai construction also allows the manufacturer to make knives with a variety of forge welded patterns on both sides. The most popular pattern is suminagashi, already mentioned. In your price range, the steel manufacturer makes the suminagashi jigane, forge welds it to both sides of the hagane, and sells it to the knife maker as in the form of sheets or blanks. The number of layers typically indicates the quality of the knife. So, even though it's has no actual bearing on quality, it's an indirect indication of quality.

Manufacturers like to claim that san-mai construction makes sharpening very hard hagane easier. It does, but not by much. Don't fall in love with PM (powdered metallurgical), die, ball bearing, or high speed steels hardened above 61HrC. They're way too difficult at your current level of sharpening expertise. 

I already talked about this a little, and bring it up again only to caution against overrating the degree to which cladding prevents corrosion at the edge. 

I've also noticed that you've decided to stay away from carbon. It's a good decision because you've limited the number of knives you need to analyze before deciding. However you've given sharpening issues as your reason, and that's a mistake. High carbon steels sharpen more easily and have better all-around edge qualities than similarly priced stainless. The only drawback is corrosion and the extra care required to prevent it. 

The MAC Pro and the Misono UX-10 are both excellent knives. Neither knife is laminated, both are "single steel." Neither MAC nor Misono says exactly which steels they use. As an educated guess the MAC Pro series are made with Takefu VG-2. The UX-10 series are made with one of two Sandvik steels: 19C27 or 13C26. Opinion is split, but I guess 13C26 because of the extreme sharpness which can be obtained. 

The Misono UX-10 is extremely well made to a very high level of fit and finish. In my opinion it is one of the best (western handled) knives in the world at any price. (Although it wouldn't be one of my top choices for myself). 

The UX-10 is made with a very streamlined, distinctive profile, including a rather short choil. If you like your knuckles high off the board, it's not the knife for you. That said, the edge profile is very French (as opposed to German) and very agile. Point placement falls betwen French (midline) and Japanese (low) and is very useful. The knife is made with an appropriate distal temper. 

The handle is excellent. One of the best western handles available anywhere. 

The blade is extremely well made, with definite distal tapering (gets narrower towards the tip and end of the handle). The blade is on the narrow side; it's fair to say it can be a bit "whippy." Although it's not fragile, this wouldn't be your choice for splitting gourds, chicken keel bones, or similar difficult cuts. 

The blade steel is a good balance of strength and toughness. (Strength is its ability to resist bending -- like rolling and waving. Toughness is it's ability to resist breaking. Put another way, strong steels break before they bend while tough steels bend before they break. These qualities are often seen as mutually exclusive, but the best modern knife steels combine them. Also, Rockwell Hardness is often seen as a synonym for strength. Iin a way it is; but big caveat here, HrC numbers can be very misleading.

In terms of the nominal edge qualities...

Edge taking: The Misono takes an extremely good edge, but is not a particularly easy to sharpen. 

Edge holding: Excellent wear resistance. Excellent resistance to rolling and waving. If the knife is sharpened to a symmetrical edge it can be rod honed (aka steeled), but rod honing should only be done with good skills, a light touch and appropriate hones (hard and fairly fine), or it will be counter-productive.

The MAC Pro is a wonderful knife. It's my first choice for people stepping up to their first, high quality, Japanese gyuto who want to keep the costs out of the stratosphere.

The quality which most sets the MAC Pro apart is its stoutness. It is absolutely the stiffest Japanese chef's knife I've ever used -- something you'll appreciate when smashing garlic. It's stiffness doesn't come at the expense of weight either. It is quite light and nimble. On the other hand, it's not a chef de chef. When it comes to splitting lobsters, hacking through chicken bones, or other heavy-duty tasks, reach for something else.

Since you already have a lot of other knives, that shouldn't be a problem for you.

Fit and finish is quite good, although not quite up to UX-10 standards. MAC's handle, like the UX-10, is almost universally loved. both are roomy, comfortable for almost any hand size or grip, and well made. 

The Pro can be made very sharp, if not quite as sharp as the UX-10. Honestly though, I doubt if your sharpening skills are at the point where you could tell any difference between the knives; and unless you make a hobby out of sharpening they probably never will be. Plus, a Pro is easier to sharpen than a UX-10. And that is something you'll appreciate as soon as you've learned to draw a wire. 

The Pro is a little thicker than the UX-10 -- which is quite thin. Consequently, the Pro can benefit from a little thinning while the UX-10 works perfectly fine with a flat bevel. In my experience, the Pro can be made to perform as sharp as a UX-10 with a 15* edge bevel over a 10* secondary bevel. That's just a heads up for now, you won't be doing double bevels for awhile. But no worries, a MAC Pro properly sharpened to a flat 15* edge bevel will be far sharper than anything you've ever used. 

The Pro has a very European, French profile. I think it's fantastically useful and intuitively easy to use. The choil is higher than a UX-10 (meaning better knuckle clearance). However, compared to a UX-10 the Pro is homely. 

Edge taking: Excellent, both in terms of the quality of the edge and ease of making it. In fact, you can sharpen a MAC on Arkansas stones. Edge holding: Also excellent, both in terms of wear and deformation -- although the UX-10 is slightly better both ways. The MAC steels more easily, with far fewer idiosyncracies than the UX-10. 

In the compare and contrast between Pro and UX-10 it's fair to say that although each would give you excellent service, they're not quite in the same class. The UX-10 is a little more of a statement and a little less of a workman's knife. 

Some other knives you might want to consider in the same class as the UX-10 are Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, MAC Ultimate, Hattori FH and Masamoto HC (carbon). 

Running in more or less the same class as the MAC Pro, are Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, Togiharu G-1, Hiromoto G no. 3, and Masamoto VG, in stainless. In carbon there's Misono Sweden, Togiharu Virgin, Kikuichi Elite, Masamoto CT, and several Sabatiers.

Personally, I use old Sabatiers. If I were replacing them today with other western handled knives I'd have to choose between Masamoto HC and Ikkanshi Tadatsuna. 

I should add that MAC has a very strong U.S. presence, that MAC USA will provide excellent support and service down the road, and is probably the best of all of the Japanese companies in that sense. 

Hope this helps,
BDL

PS. If you want to more about either the MAC Pro or the Misono UX-10, ask. If you want to know about any of the knives I've mentioned, ask. If you have questions about other Japanese knives, ask. I may or may not have the answers for you, but Chico and I are not the only people reading your questions.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

How, and where, do we pay the "tuition charge"? 

BDL, the TOURIST, and others, the educaton you are providing is priceless!


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I appreciate the sentiment.

However, I tell everyone the same thing.

Every stone, fixture, paper, paste and glass I own was purchased from internet suppliers. Every stitch of "book learnin' " I have is from easily accessible Japanese history books. I talk to Ben Dale a lot. The best sharpener in the western hemisphere is Dwade Hawley. I seek his counsel.

Oh, and I broke stuff for over two decades...


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

First off, I must also agree completely with the sentiments laid down by Pete. Regardless of where and how you gathered this information, it is exactly what I am looking for, which I have not been able to find elsewhere online, and I have yet had the time to get to my local libraries and book stores for knife forging and care resources. I do *Highly *appreciate your help and knowledge. I was seeking professional assistance, and that's what I have found, so thank you (and definitely not just BDL, but all of you).

If I said that directly, it wasn't what I believe I actually meant. I mostly see the maintenance required as an additional variable where by I could possibly damage the blade by my ignorance and inexperience in knife care, despite my ongoing research and learning. That and I did need to narrow it down somehow..

So the main things I pick out from your excellent descriptions of these two knives is that:
-Both knives in many ways are similar and are excellent knives for their blades and handles.
-However, the Misono UX, while perhaps of a superior quality and blade does have some restrictions in its use the Mac pro may not have (though I don't take issue with this), 
-and is harder to sharpen (certainly a weighty consideration at this point, indeed probably the biggest).

To further complicate this, though, I have found the Misono for about 155 at the lowest, usually closer to 200 (at the 210mm range). Does anyone know where to find a new, not from private seller, source for the blade at a lower cost so as to tempt me more towards it?

So, as it comes down the Mac Pro has an excellent handle, and, at the least, quite a good blade with good blade retention and sharpness. It is a very reasonable price (I think I saw $120 for an 8.5" gyuto), and is not too bad to sharpen. Also it does have domestic support on hand, which is something I certainly value. It looks like it covers my needs and situation very well (even if it isn't dead gorgeous like the UX-10!). So this brings me to a couple questions about this line in particular. I just walked in the door prior to reading this post and arrived to receive my King combination 1000/250 water stone. Once I learn how to properly use the thing… is this an acceptable stone to use on the Mac Pro? Also I know, naturally, only a bit about the various steels that exist. This I will be researching as well, but what kind of steel would a good fit to use on a Mac Pro? The steel I have has a largely broken handle and comes with the old set I intend to inflict my sharpening practice upon.

While this knife does look like it could easily be 'the one', I must ask if there is any knife around this tier, including blades with some manner of high-carbon, that really holds something above the Mac Pro? The Misono Swedish steel models catch the eye a bit in being high-carbon and being at a good price.

(By the way, what is the proper care for a high-carbon blade to help stop rusting? Just ensuring immediate cleaning and proper dry storage? Or is there something more?) Also, what improvements are made in the Mac Ultimate range? General higher quality, or are they particularly different in material or method? (granted it is regrettably beyond what I can justify spending on my chefs knife at this time, including most in that tier)

Again, your assistance, and everyone else that has helped has been so useful. Online reviews and other material I am finding just really doesn't cover my questions.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I also believe at some point you have to "scratch with the big chickens." You will have to buy a knife, and you will have to use some form of abrasive tool (and ideology) to make it sharp.

Now granted, we don't put a newb in a tricked out Porsche and say, "Son, that's the clutch, don't hit anything expensive." However, we will at some point have to teach him how to let out that clutch.

You will have to gather up some cheap broken knives and try out a few methods for sharpening. And not all ideologies work with all knives, or even the class of "kitchen knives." The same basic method used in sharpening camp knives, axes and chisels are probably not the best for nakiris.

I am a believer in the apprentice system. Carpenters use it, so do plumbers, cutlers, and mechanics. When we use the phrase "factory trained," we are actually harkening back to a time where a master craftsman taught hands-on about tools and procedures.

I once joked with a friend that you know you've become a tinker when you can recognize the grit of polishing paste by the taste. Overall, there's more truth than poetry in that comment.

The only way to achieve the fine art of splattering yourself with polishing compounds is to do a lot of sharpening.:lol:


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Glad I could be of some help.

That's a very fair summary.

I doubt you'll find it much cheaper. If you ultimately decide on the Misono, I suggest buying it through Korin. Korin provides very good sales and follow up service, and has a price matching policy. Also, their "resident sharpener" is excellent -- although some of his sharpening advice is screwy.

It's a pro's knife in every way.

The first few questions about "which waterstone" and/or "this is my first stone ..." are complicated because the subject is so interdynamic and nuanced. King is the largest waterstone manufacturer in Japan and they make a LOT of stones. A few are excellent, a lot fall in the range of very good to adequate and some are pretty crappy. In the greater scheme, as a matter of quality, your stone is okay.

Personally (for you, not me), your combination stone is pretty much one sided. You'll use the 1000# side a lot; first to learn to sharpen then to actually sharpen your knives. A grit as coarse as 250# is reserved for repair and profiling. In fact, it cuts so fast that it profiles -- whether you want to or not, and whether you know how to create or retain a profile or not. You can do a lot of damage with a 250#, and ought to hold off using it unitl you can hold a constant angle and have mastered "the magic marker trick."

I know you're in a hurry to fix all your old knives and thereby develop your sharpening skills. It's a good plan and not at all unreasonable. Start another thread and we'll get into it.

MAC markets an excellent ceramic steel under their own name, the MAC Black. It's an excellent fine ceramic hone, and far more break resistant than others. It's drawback is that it's expensive and, at 10.5" a little on the short side. That's long enough for an 8" knife though, if you're going to keep to that limit.

The best value and single best performing steel for almost all knives is the Idahone 12" fine ceramic. It's relatively inexpensive, and widely available. You can't bounce it off the floor though.

There aren't really any special issues regarding using a steel with the MAC Pro, but there are with most Misonos, including the UX-10. The Misono factory bevel is around 70/30 asymmetric, 15* flat on both sides. That's really on the outer edge of asymmetry for steeling. So, if you're in a situation where you want to use a steel rather than constantly prepping a stone and going to it for a "touch up," it's a good idea to reprofile the knife to 60/40 or 50/50. Those profiles won't have quite the same initial sharpness (call it a 5% difference, just to get an idea), but hold up better and need less frequent maintenance. And the maintenance is simpler.

Interesting question.

There's no perfect knife, there are always trade offs. As I said earlier, one of the outstanding attributes of the MAC 10 is it's stiffness. If you don't require that, there are a number of stainless knives just as good and maybe slightly better in the same price range. I've had a little experience with the Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff and thought it had excellent ergonomics, plus it's very easy to sharpen. (That is, it's easy to sharpen as these things go -- sharpening is sharpening. You still have to learn to do it, and the Grand Cheff won't make it any easier. Once you know how, an easy sharpening knife will take less time and drama., that's all.) Anyway, the Grand Cheff is made with an excellent alloy called AEB-L. AEB-L is made in Sweden by Uddeholm and is identical to another Swedish steel, Sandvik 13C26. I said eariler that I thought the UX-10 was (also) made of 13C26 but some of the edge taking and holding qualities of the Grand Cheff and UX-10 are different. I attribute that to hardening. The GC is hardened to 58HrC, the UX-10 to around 61HrC.

I like the Masamoto VG quite a lot -- in fact I like nearly all Masamotos quite a lot -- but it's definitely on the flexible side if that matters to you. The Togiharu G-1 is essentially a clone of the Masamoto VG, in fact it's probably made by the same people in the same factory starting with the same blanks. You save a few bucks with the Tog, but get slightly lower F&F and a slightly smaller and less good handle. That said, of the three, all-round, wonder steels (VG-10, AEB-L/13C26, G3) VG-10 is my least favorite. But the differences are very slight (even to me) and are probably mostly imaginary.

The Hiromotos, both the G no. 3 and AS may be of some interest to you. The G no. 3 is made from Hitachi G3 while the AS is warikomi with Hitachi Aogami Super (high carbon). Other than the steel, they're identically designed. Hiromoto F&F is good, but not great; and their handles are a bit on the slender side. The AS is a very popular knife for people stepping up to their first good Japanese knife. It's an extremely good looking knife, too. Well, it's a very good knife -- as good as the MAC Pro, the GC, the Masamoto VG, and the Tog G-1 in its own way. But ultimately it's a little disappointing in that AS in san-mai construction is not any better than a few other alloys. On the other hand, the G no. 3 has a wonderful lively feel to it.

Full disclosure: We owned a few Hiromoto AS for a few months in 2007, and ultimately passed them on.

Carbon is a much bigger subject. Generally -- and with all of the following knives -- carbon takes a sharper edge, takes it more easily, and better combines the virtues of toughness and strength.

To my mind there's one knife at the very top of the heap, and quite a few in the level immediately beneath it.

The Masamoto HC is a great knife. There's not one thing not to like about it. In fact, what's outstanding about Masamotos in general is not anything outstanding, but the lack of anything wrong. As they say in France, _comme il faut_.

At the next level: Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, Togiharu Virgin (probably the same steel as the HC, but slightly less good ergonomics), Masamoto CT (slightly less good steel than the HC), K-Sabatier _au carbone _Antique, Thiers Issard ****Elephant Sabatier, Thiers-Issard "Nogent" Sabatier, and a few of the Canadian/Massif Sabatiers sold by either TI or K-Sab.

(Full disclosure again: I own and currently use at least a couple of all of the Sabatiers listed -- with the partial exception of the Canadian/Massifs which I techinically own, and used to use exclusively, but my daughter currently has posession and uses them.)

The distinctions between the Japanese knives at this level are very slight but real. If you're seriously interested choose a couple and I'll try and unravel them for you. Bottom line though, if you like any of them you'll like all of them about the same.

The Sabatiers are very different from the Japanese knives, and vary more from one to another too. But in general ... They're lighter than German knives, heavier than the Japanese -- just light enough to be both non-fatiguing. The knife blade profile is perfect. Better than anything else. Handles -- great. And so on.

French carbon is considerably softer than Japanese, still the knives can hold fairly acute bevels -- for instance, I sharpen to 60/40 slightly more acute than 15*. They steel very well -- which is a good thing because they need so much more of it than a Japanese knife would. They're very chip resistant -- you can even split the odd chicken without fear (although if you're going to do several you'll want your chef de chef).

French carbon can be made very nearly as sharp as Japanese carbon, and much, much sharper than German stainless.

Still, the principle reasons I continue to use my French knives is sentiment and the fact that I already own them and have organized the rest of my knife junk around them.

There are two basic paths. One is to prevent staining (aka patina) and other sorts of corrosion (including rust) from forming. The second is to force a patina, then maintain it.

For the first: Rinse frequently; after every task, and sometimes in the middle of a task if you're cutting large amounts of particularly corrosive foods like onions or tomatoes (say for example, every four onions) and use a Scotch-Brite cloth to lightly scour it. When stains do form, scour them out as soon as you see them. Use a Scotch Brite to rub the knife down with baking soda at least every time you sharpen, and sometimes more frequently. Never leave the knife sitting around wet. Never leave the knife in the sink. The scouring will quickly take the "new blade" mirror finish off the knife and replace it with the dull glow of well-cared for tools. I have knives which have maintained that condition for decades.

For the second: I'm not an expert at patinas. But the idea is to soak the knife in some sort of solution which will cause it to oxidize without rusting. The layer of oxidation then protects the steel. Some solutions, for instance "mustard" can be used to create very intricate patterns. Patina or no, the knives still need frequent rinsing. But of course, they don't need any scouring.

Obviously you should keep the edge of any knife very clean -- and that usually resolves any corrosion issues. But nothing's perfect. You can always knock undesired corrosion off the edge by steeling or touching up on a stone. Just remember to clean your steel regularly.

The MAC Ultimate is made from a different, fairly exotic steel (VG-5, I think), is hardened to either 61 as opposed to 60 for the Pro, or 60 as opposed to 59 (I forget which), and is pretty much completely handmade by a couple of very skilled craftsmen. It is an all around much nicer knife than the Pro, BUT you won't get appreciably more performance out of it.

In that tier, you'd probably like the Hattori FH as much or more. Also, despite the fact that it's currently priced considerably lower than the Ultimate, the FH, the IKT, etc., the UX-10 belongs with them if only for its high levels of F&F.

Me? If I were spending my own money I'd go with the IKTwhich, price aside, is probably not a good choice for you; or more likely, the Masamoto HC which you is worth considering if you can deal with carbon.

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I will have plenty of knives to practice sharpening on, and to be honest I could see myself getting quite into it out of sheer interest, above the actual practical functionality of it. Sadly, however, I don't believe I know anyone that can sharpen a kitchen knife, so I will have no mentor but what is written down.




Well the maintenance steps for high-carbon aren't too bad, I can certainly deal with that.

I am going to keep my budget lower at this point, more around the Mac Pro ~$120, and given this and your description of the hiromoto knives (indeed they are attractive knives), I would like a bit more info on them, in relation to the mac.

I'll likely get my hands on one of those sharpening steels before long, given that the one I have is essentially useless now.


As always, thanks for the great info BDL.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

As much as we joke around on this issue, this is a problem that you must address. Either that or get ready to pay BDL and I some big bucks to fix your knives.

Now granted, I don't think chefs sharpen as much as they claim. Oh, the young ones might do it to save a few pennies, but most of the ones I've met cannot even steel. Alton Brown recommends you hire sharpeners. My guess is that Wolfgang Puck doesn't even know where his old waterstones are even stored.

But most of these guys know the basics, and they can discern a functional edge. And lots of top-flight chefs have signatures dishes where presentation is part of their art. They need the best knives available.

You're going to have to get a stone and learn.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I have the stone in hand, the knives to practice on, and by this weekend will have a book recommended around here (an edge in the kitchen I believe it was called) and will start sharpening.


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Find an old Phil Harris tune called "The Dark Town Poker Club" and play it as you polish your knives.

I guarantee your edges will be scary...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Hiromoto is a fairly large manufacturer. Hiromoto-san seems to be aiming for the niche of "a lot of features for the money."

The AS and G no. 3 share the same handle, same fit and finish and same blade geometry. The blade construction and alloys used are quite different.

Generally speaking thy share good geometry, although as soon as you have the skills you'll want to do some thinning. Also, edge asymmetry from the factory is variable. Over the years the knives seem to have become more asymmetric. Any given knife will be right handed with the bevels set at around 15* on both sides -- unless reprofiled. But the knives can run anywhere from 80/20 to 60/40 -- that's a lot variance. 

To my mind, this inconsistency is typical of Hiromoto's general fit and finish. These are both high value knives in terms of raw materials and the way the blades are put together, and something's got to give. F&F can be a little irregular in terms of the handle scales being absolutely flat and tight to the tang, finish on the spine and choil, and the odd grind mark. Also, the heel, right at the chin can be a little thick. But the presence of anhy and all of these falls under the rubric of "not always." Sometimes the knives are perfect.

I've mentioned this several times but it bears repeating, the handles are on the slender side. Depending on your grip, and/or hand size, this can be an absolute disqualification. 

The AS is a san-mai knife with a soft stainless (420J2, I think) jigane (supporting metal) and an Aogami Super hagane (edge and core steel). Aogami Super is a very special, high-carbon steel from Hitachi made at their Yasugi plant. Many people consider it the best knife steel in the world. I don't believe there actually is a single"best," but AS is in the select group at the top of the heap in almost every knife category. 

However, it is not an easy steel for a manufacturer to work. Consequently, you almost see it in either kasumi or san-mai construction, in other words as the hagane (edge/core) part of a laminate. This is because the supporting layers (jigane) prevent the knife from cracking, breaking, or remaining permanently bent. The jigane also makes it significantly easier for the maker to drill and grind the knife -- in much the same way tape or sticky paper help with plastic working.

No question Hiromoto does an excellent job making a san-mai, AS blade. It's remarkable they can sell it at the price. One question still unadressed is "what does san-mai do for the owner." The answer is: Except for corrosion, not very much. 

Note: Personally, I much prefer "single steel knives" over san-mai for very subtle differences in feel which very few users will notice. So, if my general dislike of san-mai construction bleeds through just ignore it. Take the knife on its merits. 

That said, the knife itself is very good, but not outstanding in any category except in edge holding which is excellent. Otherwise, edge taking in terms of absolute sharpness and ease of sharpening are very good. The knife resists both wear and deformation. If the edge is profiled to adequate symmetry the AS can be tuned up on a rod hone. You'll want to use something very fine or smooth textured, and steel with a soft touch. You'll also want to bear in mind that you don't want to push AS around too much.

Although it's high-carbon, the AS is not particularly prone to corrosion at the edge. People who worry about what special or extra care the Hiromoto AS requires worry too much. You'll want to rinse and wipe the knife after every use, as opposed to leaving it sitting around with food on it -- but that's true of any good knife. Yes, the edge will darken and oxidize between sharpenings but the stain comes off easily, immediately and completely with sharpening or steeling. There is simply no reason to force a patina or do extra scouring. 

The G no. 3 is made with (wait for it) G no. 3 (aka Hitachi's ginsanko 3 aka G3). G3, along with AEB-L (aka 13C26), and VG-10 is one of the "wonder" all around knife stainless steels. The performance characteristics of the steel, including price, are extremely well balanced. Hiromoto construction doesn't get in the way of any of them either. It's an excellent balance of edge taking, edge holding, and edge stability. 

The G3 is a "single steel" knife. While not unheard of, it's not exactly typical for the price range. So again, good value. Compared to the AS, the G3 takes as good an edge, but takes it more easily. It wears slightly but not significantly faster and given equal edged geometry is more subject to deformation. Again depending on edge symmetry, it is an easier and better candidate for steeling. All things considered, I actually prefer the G3.

We owned a few AS knives (including 27cm and 24cm gyutos) a couple of years ago. They were very nice indeed, but not nice enough to push the old Sabatiers out of the block. True for Linda (my wife, who has decent intuitive skills and knidly allows me to sharpen for her), too. In fact, when I told her I was thinking of giving away some of our knives her response was "not MY Sabatiers. Apparently I'd given them to her without realizing it. Go figure. 

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

Hmmm. For me it's more an issue of semantics.

For example, Clint Eastwood became famous with "the most powerful handgun in the world." Well, with certain parameters, the .44 Rem Mag was. It was the most powerful commerically loaded cartridge in an off-the-shelf handgun format. In the real world of true performance, that cartridge was never in the top five.

However, despite the odds, someone gets hit by lightning, someone wins the lottery, there's only one fastest automobile, out of six billion only one man is the strongest, and yes, in some kitchen there is the best, sharpest and strongest knife.

My guess is that the real champ is a one of a kind, period, 800 year old Japanese katana, wasabi or tanto locked away safely in some national-treasure museum in Tokyo.

However, no matter what it is, *it is a laminate*.

There are major differences in the ideas of "tough" and "strong" and "hard" and "sharp." A tough knife can take a beating, but while strong enough for that, it's rather soft and it sharpens like a chocolate bar.

What knife enthusiasts have been looking for is something akin to Jessica Alba driving a Porshe that can pull a plow.

Japanese laminates--while having many layers--are formed with a softer jigane as a core and a harder hagane for the edge. (Granted this is an over-simplification. I'm not going to type a treatise.)

A singular steel knife can successfully be "differentially hardened." However it cannot receive a successful HT creating over 300 layers in a perfect strata. Yes, I have folding knives made from uber steels with an HT from Paul Bos. They are the best on the planet. They are not samurai swords.

It is my hope that someday you get to slice a tomato with a Hattori KD series kitchen knife prepared by a competent polisher. The edge will fall through the tomato, and there won't even be the slightest 'hesitation' in slicing the skin.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Chico,

I strongly disagree with a great deal of what you wrote. However, I don't want to hijack Al's thread with the discussion. I'll start another thread on Japanese laminated construction for culinary knives.

BDL


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

No need to apologize, I enjoy reading your stuff. In fact, some of the best times I have is when I shut off the computer, come back in several hours to find your name on the post.

Hey, I live in "The Peoples' Republik of Madison." Some of my best friends are liberals.

Why can't we disagree on knives and still have a blast?


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Thank you for those further descriptions BDL. For now I think I am going to keep my mind on the Mac Pro, and will start working on my sharpening skills soon.


Thank you all for the great advice, and the effort and energy exerted on my account, it's been an amazing help.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The MAC Pro is an excellent choice as go-to gyuto for most people, especially those transitioning from western, mass-produced chef's knives to their first, good, Japanese knife. A nice balance of many strengths aganist few weaknesses.

If you need any help (and you will) learning to sharpen, let me know. 

Very glad we could help,
BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm sure I will  

I didn't get a chance to get out to the library to grab my sharpening book today, but tomorrow I have the whole day until the late evening free in which to get over there. Once I get questions, this will certainly be the place I'll be asking them.

While I may make a new thread to ask the majority of these questions, I do have one to start so that I can have everything in order asap. Is there a particular product I will want to use with my King whetstone aside from the stone itself for general sharpening of my set of practice stainless steel knives?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

What? No thoughts about eastern mystism? No beguiling cloudy potions? No chanting for the dark arts? Yikes, your slant certainly takes the fun out of rubbin' the old wet rock.

Oh, I didn't know that. If you have everything that should make the job easier. If I sound disappointed it's just that there is no mention here of fun, or the arts or the love of the craft.

When you take up "the curse" you are entering into a guild brotherhood which spans centuries. There was always hushed awe for gods like Vulcan who forged edged tools. Where would the Spartans be without the arts in brass.

When you clutch up that first dripping waterstone and adjoin man to metal you become my kin and brother. Your lineage is now that of those who soil their hands to create beauty.

Either that, or we can just teach you to scrape metal with some form of abrasive thingamajig.

Have some fun, create some beauty. Learn the secrets of a seemingly simple craft that befuddles millions who will never grasp the skill.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh, don't worry, there will certainly be mysticism! I do fully intend on sacrificing a goat.

And I do intend on enjoying the **** of of it. This is the kind of thing I know will be fun for me. (especially the goat part).



PS.

There was actually another question I had for you Tourist. When you are fitting a customer with a knife, what is the process you go through to match them with a knife that they will be satisfied with?


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## the tourist (Jul 21, 2009)

I have a small, continuing clientele that has made several purchases from me in the past. I know what they like, and I've handled numerous repairs and re-sharpenings.

One client likes Emerson folders and 'folded' Japanese laminate kitchen knives. He's more adapt on the computer than I am, and he's pretty much researched every purchase.

If my suppliers carry the knife, I simply order it. Many times I might explain the differences in kitchen knives--their strengths and weaknesses--and how best it is to sharpen them.

Working chefs are different. I liken them to a tot in his "terrible twos" who claims he loves candy and demands it, but hates most of what you bring. I smile a lot, bring in lots of test mules and do a ton of listening. Sooner or later I find something he likes. I make sure I sharpen that knife several times at his kitchen until he's convinced I'm the only one in the entire world who "gets him."

I then spend his money on chrome, and drain off my adrenaline on heavy black iron and idiots who insist on crossing my path.

My therapist says I'm doing much better...:lol:


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I did actually get a chance to handle the Mac pro today (finally found a local store that carries them) and wow...that handle feels like it was made for me specifically. 

Due to the breakdown of my work laptop, and the fact that i'm self employed (so I'll be funding a new one) the knife purchasing is being delayed, but I have fully settled on the Mac Pro 9.5" Gyuto. Now just to decide if I want to go Mac pro for my paring knife as well (I have no paring knives of quality).

Thanks again for all of your help.


Oh, and also, as I'm almost done reading 'An Edge in the Kitchen' it seems to suggest I'll be wanting a finer grit stone than my King 250/1000 (for some reason I thought I had a 250/2000) to finish off my knives. Suggestions and thoughts?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You'll eventually want to finish your MAC Pro in the (JIS) 5,000# to 8,000# range. The Arashiyama 7000# aka Takenoko 8000#, and the Naniwa Chosera 5000#. Another stone, the Shapton Pro 5000# is also excellent, but is a very difficult stone to learn.

Speaking of learning ... 

Learning to sharpen a knife like the MAC Pro takes awhile. Learning to polish it, is a different thing entirely. Usually, the fist part of the polishing learning curve, is screwing up the edge you just got from the sharpening stone, by rounding it over. The only fix is to return to the sharpening stone. It's a good idea to hold off on anything higher until you can pull a wire and deburr your MAC at the 1000# level. 

Stones have different personalities in addition to prices. Some stones provide excellent feedback -- they help you "feel" if you're doing everything right or something wrong. The Shapton Pro 5000# might be the worst ever in that sense. It feels like granite mounted on jello. On top of that, it's PITA to flatten and lap. So, not for beginners. 

On the other hand, there are some excellent stone with feedback that's helpful for sharpeners of all skill levels. Nonpareil aoto, Naniwa Super Stones and Naniwa Chosera are great examples of these. If you were starting from scratch, I'd say get Super Stones. 

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive higher grit combinations which will compliment your King. In combination stones, I like Norton combis better than Kings. In your case, that's the Norton 4000/8000. By the time you wear out the King's 1000# side, you'll be ready to toss the Nortons and replace them with something better. Or, you could just get a Naniwa Super Stone 5000#. Either stone will serve you well -- but there's no great hurry.

If you haven't already, you need to decide on how you're going to flatten. That can't wait. 

BDL


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

So as far as I understand it, the 1000 will do for general sharpening, a higher grit would be able to get me a finer and sharper finish, and then I'd use something even far higher for the polish, aye? By the time I get my mac and it needs sharpening I should have a finer stone, and be a bit practiced with sharpening.

Also, my practice knives are some older chicago cutlery knives, (probably a couple decades old, but they do appear to be made in china, last I checked). How well will 1000 do for sharpening them, for the time? Would that kind of cheaper steel be able to benefit from a much higher stone?


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

So this is a bit of a follow up on this thread, so I decided to not create a new thread. I am wondering if there are any particular reasons why I might go to some one else for my paring knife (that and my gyuto being the two blades of quality I need most at the moment) besides mac. I do find the mac pro paring quite comfortable in my hand, the steel is definitely of quality, and I assume at the same general sharpening level of difficulty as the gyuto. Is there any reason that can be thought of why I should really go for another particular paring knife at the same price range? I dont want to be spending ridiculous amounts on my paring knife as for the most part I dont do a whole lot of small knife work that cant be delegated to my cheapy wusthof gourmet.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

Personally I see no reason to stick with any one brand just because you own a knife made by them. Often I'll love one company's gyuto but prefer another suji, for example.


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

Aye, I do have a mixed knife set and intend on further deviation, however that is the purpose of this question. Mac is a good match to my current cooking needs and sharpening skills/situation, which is why it is what I am considering first and foremost. It is again why I am asking this question so that if there is any particular brand or model of parring knife that excells I may consider it as well.


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I think Shun makes one of the best paring knives out there. Even among guys who bash Shun you'll find love for that one. The shape & ergonomics is very close to perfect.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I feel obliged to mention that one pro chef and knife fanatic I know -- very hard-core sharpener with disturbing cutting skills -- swears by Victorinox paring knives, which you can get at 3/$12 (or less if you look). Once the knife won't take more edge without crazy sharpening behavior, you retire it as a box-cutter and go on to the next. For a home user, I suspect they'd last a decade or more. Good knives, honestly!


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## algavinn (Sep 12, 2009)

I will definitely check those out. In all honesty, while I feel very connected with the mac pro gyuto, I think I'm more oblivious when it comes to a parring knife. I just don't think I need something too high quality for my parring as yet, so as long as victronix is comfortable, I would be fine swinging one of those for now (****, I doubt I need more than my wusthof gourmet 3.5 for now).


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