# Dept of Health needs info - can you help me word it?



## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

I have been performing off-premises (on-site) catering for almost 20 years in another state.  I do ZERO prep or cooking before arriving to the client's kitchen (other than cakes).  Everything is done on the client's premises.  I have worked this way even for 400 guests.  It works great for me and I have no intention of changing my way of doing business.  To me, this is much safer than cooking and transporting.  I am always hearing: "Your food doesn't taste like wedding food!"  I want to keep it that way.  

My husband was relocated to Mississippi and I am starting over.  I started under the wire and have been fairly successful in building my business considering I only started a few months ago.

I need to get legal though.  I do not like looking over my should constantly.

The MS Dept of Health requires that I fill out a Food Establishment Plan Review geared towards catering.  No problem.

But they also want me to have a full service kitchen - which I do not use or need.  I do not cook anything or even cut a single mushroom at my homebase.  I only need to store (dry storage and cold storage only and all required sinks).

Because I am insisting I do not use cooking equipment at my kitchen, they also want a Standard Operating Procedure that DETAILS every step I take to get the finished product.

I have to detail out shopping for product, storing it, transporting it to the venue, etc.  I can't find anything that already exists for guidelines for these circumstance.  Does anyone know if it exists?  

I have to provide menus - cooking details including equipment used) - it's completely insane - all as a part of my SOP.

If this does not exist, does anyone know if written guidelines exist for transporting food from the commercial kitchen to the client's venue?  i can modify that and make it work.

I am struggling with wording all of this correctly so I have as little kick back as possible.

Thank you.


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## mgm0 (Nov 27, 2012)

It sounds to me that this fall more in the category of being a private chef as opposed to catering? Maybe you could tackle the issue from that angle. But please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted as this is an interesting subject


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

You can't be the only one. FInd another long established caterer and ask how they deal with it. Someone in your area must have figured this out.


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## grande (May 14, 2014)

I've heard of this- good luck, I think you have a lot of typeing ahead of you. But chefwriter is right, if they are requiring it of you they are requiring it of someone else.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

The problem is (if I read your post right)  the raw ingredients are not going directly to point of sale (that being an inspected kitchen with a reefer/freezer temps paper trail....everything off the floor and lower than (insert measurement here) from ceiling...yadayada.

But you know this already.....

I would almost suggest you are being made an example of.....

That when you present this ton of paperwork some ahole in the HD office will point out the above and deny your license.

The only solution I can think of is to look around for an inspected incubator kitchen that can rent you cold and dry storage.

HTH.

mimi


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

I personally think you just need to change one word. Instead of transporting product to the venue use the word delivery. I would just contact your vendors

and explain your situation and work out something so the health dept is under the impression your product is being delivered to the venue. If your working out of a legal kitchen

at the venue I can't see a problem if your product is being delivered directly to the kitchen. I can't believe that restaurants have to have an SOP to have food delivered. Unless

they are using the term SOP for HACCP.

It sounds like they think you are working under some sort of Cottage Food Act. I'll do some snooping, I'm affiliated with MicroMentor and have worked with some people in Miss.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

deleted


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

mgm0 said:


> It sounds to me that this fall more in the category of being a private chef as opposed to catering? Maybe you could tackle the issue from that angle. But please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Anyway, good luck and keep us posted as this is an interesting subject


I am trying this also. So far, no luck. They look at me like I've grown horns.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

chefwriter said:


> You can't be the only one. FInd another long established caterer and ask how they deal with it. Someone in your area must have figured this out.


So far I am finding this area to be very unfriendly in this industry. I have lots of calls out to people, no return calls as of yet (for over a month now). According to a couple of catering vendors I spoke to, at 70% of the caterers are operating illegally. So, I don't know who the 30% would be to ask how they are doing it. I will keep trying though.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

Grande said:


> I've heard of this- good luck, I think you have a lot of typeing ahead of you. But chefwriter is right, if they are requiring it of you they are requiring it of someone else.


I turned in a 26 page request this morning. Here's hoping!!


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

If no return calls, then I would suggest a personal visit. Phone calls are easy to blow off, forget to return or get back to later. 

You can also talk to people as if inquiring about a good local caterer. find out the owners name, the general attitude towards them (friendly or all business?) etc. 

I have found that most business owners, when approached in a friendly way from another business owner are more than willing to share their experience. Keep in mind that it is flattering to be asked your opinion. Find the right time for them to be approached, do it in person and be sure start off on a positive note. 

"Hi, my name is … . I heard your one of the best caterers in the area so I was hoping you could help me?" 

A good business with a solid reputation isn't going to be put off or intimidated by your idea of becoming a caterer. They have plenty of clients and are long established. All you want to know is how much of these requirements are BS or real. 

A phone call could be from anyone, not always handled well by the receiver. But a well timed, courteous, in person cry for help is hard to ignore. 

I should mention that I wouldn't take the catering vendors word for anything. Unless the Health Department in your area is unbelievably incompetent, lazy or extremely corrupt, there is no way 70 percent of local caterers are illegal. They all get inspected, in many localities those inspections are now online and if they are good caterers, they wouldn't be caught dead knowingly violating Health Dept. regulations. Not to mention the effect of social media these days. Word gets around FAST.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

Hello, everyone!!  Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions.  I haven't dropped this thread and forgotten about it.  I'm still fighting the cause.

I don't have anything new to update.  I am still looking for a home-base.  I know the right place is out there.  

As far as the personal chef angle, the Health Dept told me that being a personal chef is illegal in MS - uh, no way!  I flat out do not believe that.  So, anyone with the means is not allowed to hire a private chef?  Really?  They told me no.  I'm not buying it for a second.  Still fighting that fight also.


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## chefbuba (Feb 17, 2010)

Pm @Brandon O'Dell. He is a private chef with a company that employs several private chefs. He might have some good info for you.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

If these say it's illegal it's has to be written someplace that s/b easy to find. I think the HD is having a problem with your cooking on site in unapproved kitchens. I mean your not cooking in a HD inspected licensed cooking and prep kitchen. In most cases the HD doesn't worry about caterer's as much unless they are feeding the public. The ones your doing are private parties using their kitchens. I also think the HD has a problem with you shopping for food and storing it where? If you shop for a party a few days before the party how does the food stay cold. Your home isn't a proper place to store food as far and the HD is concerned. I would just write out from beginning to end how you do things. Take a couple of sample menus to show them what you do. Remember, they just want to know the what, where, when and hows. Just make sure everything you do complies within the guide lines of keeping food safe..........Good luck.......


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

ChefBillyB

Thank you for your reply.  I have done exactly that.  I have submitted everything to them, step by step, including recipes and what equipment I use to prep and cook.  I have asked them point blank: if a wealthy person wants to hire a personal chef, how is that handled? "That's not allowed,"  is the answer I get over and over.  That's crap and we all know that.  

I completely understand the storage of food and all that.  That being said - no one will ever convince me that cooking it and traveling with it and attempting to keep it hot or cold is any safer than storing it in the manner the vendor sold it.  Or that cutting vegetables and fruit before traveling is safer than leaving them intact until after arrival.  For instance, tomatoes can be room temp until you cut them.  So how is it better that I have to cut them before traveling?  Oranges?  Onions and potatoes?  How?

But I digress, those are the rules (as ill-founded as they are).

On most of my jobs, I purchase food and store it at the client's location.  I do not have a heavy work load.  I only take jobs that are convenient for me and allow me to work in the manner I am comfortable working.  Which is to use the client's location for everything.  Food is fresher, not over cooked and dry from traveling and tastes so much better.  If I cannot do that, I turn down the job with rare exceptions.

I worked a wedding for 150 a couple of weeks ago.  It was held at their church with a HUGE commercial style kitchen.  Even after purchasing food and storing it, there was still lots of room left over.  Anyway, I was given a key on Wednesday and started shopping over the next three days.  I dropped everything off as I bought it and stored it there - in their commercial equipment.

The MS Dept of Health is telling me I cannot do any of that.  I have to have a home-base, I have to cut, prepare and cook everything at that home-base and travel with it whether I'm a caterer or a personal chef.

I guess the difference is a private chef's home-base is the client's address - but it's still not commercial, so I'm still not buying that personal cheffing is illegal in the state of MS.


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## panini (Jul 28, 2001)

Like i mentioned before. Just look around for an incubator. This way you can get a license and insurance. It sounds like their concerns are haccp.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

tryingcake said:


> ChefBillyB
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I have done exactly that. I have submitted everything to them, step by step, including recipes and what equipment I use to prep and cook. I have asked them point blank: if a wealthy person wants to hire a personal chef, how is that handled? "That's not allowed," is the answer I get over and over. That's crap and we all know that.
> 
> ...


I follow all the reasons why you do what you do. The HD in many cases only follow the rules set up for their county or state. They only know what they know. When something comes up that is out of the box, their stumped. I have had the HD call me and ask me what I thought about a food prep of process they weren't familiar with. They have policies and proceeders set up for caterer's that have cooking kitchens that are inspected and licensed. I wonder if you even have to be licensed and inspected under the HD because your not selling to the public. Your being hired by a private party and cooking for their guests. It would be different if you were selling to the public......


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

panini said:


> Like i mentioned before. Just look around for an incubator. This way you can get a license and insurance. It sounds like their concerns are haccp.


I have insurance. There's no way I would do this without insurance.

I have been desperately looking for an incubator. So far the closest one is 2 hours away in Louisiana. The only one I can find in my state is 5 hours away. I searched using the following terms:

kitchen incubator

culinary incubator

catering incubator

baking incubator

and a few other terms. I keep coming up empty. I contacted Jackson County incubator business program - nothing. I'm losing faith fast.

I can't find a commercial kitchen to rent that is small enough. They are all full restaurant spaces and therefore out of my price range. I'm looking at food trucks, also. I just wasn't prepared to spend that kind of money this second. Although, I feel that is my best bet in the long run.

I'm not totally giving up yet. But I honestly think I've about exhausted all avenues.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

ChefBillyB said:


> I follow all the reasons why you do what you do. The HD in many cases only follow the rules set up for their county or state. They only know what they know. When something comes up that is out of the box, their stumped. I have had the HD call me and ask me what I thought about a food prep of process they weren't familiar with. They have policies and proceeders set up for caterer's that have cooking kitchens that are inspected and licensed. I wonder if you even have to be licensed and inspected under the HD because your not selling to the public. Your being hired by a private party and cooking for their guests. It would be different if you were selling to the public......


They insist that I do and have given me a cease and desist in the meantime. I did a job a couple of weeks ago in spite of - and I worried the whole time. This has become so stressful for all the wrong reasons.

They said I am selling to the public because I buy the food. I understand that thinking. So I'm thinking there is a loophole where the client gives me a prepaid debit card for food expenses. I mean we all know that people with personal chefs and housekeepers do not shop for their own food (not in general, anyway). They are given a budget, right? So how are they paying? Either getting reimbursed or a debit/credit card that the employer funds. I don't see why I can't do something like that legally. I would have to change my website and remove the word catering. I think that word has them in a knot since they can't think outside the box. I can still have it in my tags and reference catering so it comes up in a google search.

I don't know. This whole thing has me exhausted.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

chefbuba said:


> Pm @Brandon O'Dell. He is a private chef with a company that employs several private chefs. He might have some good info for you.


I just sent him a PM - thanks for the info!! Hopefully he can guide me.


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## cheflayne (Aug 21, 2004)

What is your tax filing status...independent contractor or employee or LLC or sole proprietor or etc.?


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

What a nightmare.

What would I do?

First order of business would be to find out exactly how many caterers are working under the radar.

The second would be finding out (if the price were right) which ones would spend a bit of their profits in order to sleep better at nite.

If there are really as many as you have heard then you would be able to turn this initial bit of bad fortune into a viable profit making concern.

You should have no problem securing a loan large enuf to bring up to code and outfit an inspected and licensed incubator kitchen.

With the state of the economy the federal government is working overtime giving out start up loans to small business owners.

Just picture it.....

You would have a base of operations PLUS an income generating business.

Just some food for thought.

mimi


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

tryingcake said:


> They insist that I do and have given me a cease and desist in the meantime. I did a job a couple of weeks ago in spite of - and I worried the whole time. This has become so stressful for all the wrong reasons.
> 
> They said I am selling to the public because I buy the food. I understand that thinking. So I'm thinking there is a loophole where the client gives me a prepaid debit card for food expenses. I mean we all know that people with personal chefs and housekeepers do not shop for their own food (not in general, anyway). They are given a budget, right? So how are they paying? Either getting reimbursed or a debit/credit card that the employer funds. I don't see why I can't do something like that legally. I would have to change my website and remove the word catering. I think that word has them in a knot since they can't think outside the box. I can still have it in my tags and reference catering so it comes up in a google search.
> 
> I don't know. This whole thing has me exhausted.


If this business is worth fighting for I would get a lawyer. Once he/she gets involved in this matter the Hd needs to show proof of whats leagal and what isn't. I really have a strong feeling that if it's not something that's in their book they feel it's not allowed. Their just covering their asses and not going to go the extra yard to figure it out. This is a government agency why would you think they would go out of their way to help. You'll need a lawyer if you want to set up a corporation. This will give them a bit more to do........


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

panini said:


> Like i mentioned before. Just look around for an incubator. This way you can get a license and insurance. It sounds like their concerns are haccp.





flipflopgirl said:


> What a nightmare.
> 
> What would I do?
> 
> ...


My husband and I have discussed this at length and are seriously considering it. I am doing the homework to see if they are allowed here. I have lived in areas where shared kitchens are not allowed at all. So - are they not here because no one has done it - or because they are illegal? That's the first step.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

cheflayne said:


> What is your tax filing status...independent contractor or employee or LLC or sole proprietor or etc.?


Sole proprietor at the moment. I was just considering obtaining an LLC when all of this started. Now I have put that on hold until I know if I will still be in business at all. I have a tax ID number as well as all insurance and bonds required. I pay taxes. This is what I had to have where I lived before, so I brought it all with me (changing locations, of course.)

I can change it to whatever it needs to be.


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## chefwriter (Oct 31, 2012)

On the chance you haven't given up yet, I'll offer some encouragement. After a search of the Mississippi Health Dept. website, I could not find any regulations regarding your specific situation. That does not mean that there aren't any but it is a good indication that ChefBillyB is correct.

     i would continue to pursue this but I don't think you need a lawyer just yet for this issue although having one in general is a necessity. Pushing the issue will get them to either go the extra yard to figure it out or simply leave you alone. As BillyB suggested, finding the actual laws in writing is an important step. My experience with the local HD has shown me that they are indeed bureaucrats who simply enforce what is in front of them without effort at understanding any of it and are telling you no just to cover themselves.. 

     If Mississippi does not have the applicable laws that the Health regulations are based on available on the internet, they will be available in actual paper form. Here in NY you can go to the State Law Library. I'm sure MS has something similar. 

     Your state may differ but in my experience as a restaurant owner I found that too often the regulations here in NY were simply legislation enacted for political purposes and not based on any concern for public safety. Just as often these regulations resulted in needless higher expenses with no return on investment. 

   While compliance with general Health Department guidelines (cleanliness, food safety) is essential for a clean organized and safe foodservice operation, being an active advocate for yourself is a vital aspect of ownership in many areas, not just the Health Department. Presenting yourself as such in a professional but relentless manner will put everyone on notice.  Keep pushing until you get the answers you are looking for.


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Not that I think you are timid (a successful hospitality pro is anything but lol) but don't let them bog you down at the reception desk.

Like being on perpetual hold with the Carpenter's greatest hits on endless loop Hell, you will go insane long before you can get anywhere.

I have never worked in MS but HAVE dealt with trying to get a festival license in deep East Texas and I imagine they are pretty close.

Small isolated towns with one huge family working all the courthouse desk jobs..... plus running every catering and baking business in a 6 county span.

What application?

I never got no application.

mimi


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

I wonder what the HD in Mississippi does with the BBQ boys and girls cooking on site. When I approached  the HD I would always ask them " How can I accomplish what I want to do and make you feel comfortable in me doing it. " The answer was never a no, it would be discussion on how I can accomplish it and how they would feel they had a good handle on inspecting my operation. You need to have a sit down and ask them just this way. You should also go in the meeting knowing if it's not in their guidelines it's not their fault. If you try to get new policies and proceeders it's going to be hard to accomplish. You want to work with whats already written and explain your catering process. The reason they may not let people cook at home kitchens is because of all the people who want to sell their homemade goods at farmers markets. The home kitchen could be using a unapproved water source and a kitchen that doesn't meet the HD's sanitation guidelines. There is a reason why they have these guidelines, it's to protect the public. You may need to lease a catering kitchen that meets the requirements of your HD. This is what most people do anyway........ChefBill


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

chefwriter said:


> Your state may differ but in my experience as a restaurant owner I found that too often the regulations here in NY were simply legislation enacted for political purposes and not based on any concern for public safety. Just as often these regulations resulted in needless higher expenses with no return on investment.


That is my biggest woe. Not at any time do I want to be unhealthy or have high-risk practice. In fact, California guidelines are much stricter than here, and as that is where I was trained, those are the ones I go by (as far as food handling). Here, only the manager has to have a ServSafe card. No one else. That boggles my mind. Since a general food handler's card is not required here, I can't mandate it. But I offer a higher pay rate if you have one - and of course, those people get preferential hiring consideration. Mississippi doesn't even offer the class. I encourage my employees to take the online course through California.

But certain rules, including California, cannot be justified. They do not make things safer, in fact quite the opposite, and they do not give me a return on my investment.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

ChefBillyB said:


> I wonder what the HD in Mississippi does with the BBQ boys and girls cooking on site. .......ChefBill


I have asked this question. Actually outside catering has much less regulation... yes! So, if I were cooking outside at an outside event, the rules would be much more relaxed. I'm so perplexed I can't see straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ChefBillyB*

When I approached the HD I would always ask them " How can I accomplish what I want to do and make you feel comfortable in me doing it. " The answer was never a no, it would be discussion on how I can accomplish it and how they would feel they had a good handle on inspecting my operation. ........ChefBill

I asked this question about two weeks ago. I was told I have to have a home-based kitchen and that's that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ChefBillyB*

You should also go in the meeting knowing if it's not in their guidelines it's not their fault. If you try to get new policies and proceeders it's going to be hard to accomplish. You want to work with whats already written and explain your catering process.

Believe me, I have been as friendly as I can. I fully understand making enemies will get me nowhere. I keep stressing to them that I want to be legal and do things correctly. And i will ask, how does so-and-so accomplish this (BBQ caterers, private chefs and such) - there is always an answer as to why I do not fit that description.

I think I'm at the lawyer getting stage. This has been on my mind for a few days now. None of this makes sense at this point. I think I just have a lazy worker who doesn't want to do the work.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

flipflopgirl said:


> Not that I think you are timid (a successful hospitality pro is anything but lol) but don't let them bog you down at the reception desk.
> 
> Like being on perpetual hold with the Carpenter's greatest hits on endless loop Hell, you will go insane long before you can get anywhere.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think I'm facing some of that. I don't think they are going so far as to lose my info. But they do not like that I have California on my resume (I had to submit a bio with my application). I keep getting a lot of attitude about that. I don't even have to mention it and I hear flack about it. They ignore the fact that I was raised in Ohio (in the restaurant business) and lived in NC for twenty years (again - managing one of my dad's restaurants). I keep getting SoCal thrown up into my face - even though that was a small segment of my life. I had a small neighborhood bar there. The circumstances were completely different than being a personal chef or even full fledged caterer.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

chefwriter said:


> On the chance you haven't given up yet, I'll offer some encouragement. After a search of the Mississippi Health Dept. website, I could not find any regulations regarding your specific situation. That does not mean that there aren't any but it is a good indication that ChefBillyB is correct.


I can't find them either. I have asked a couple of other people with commercial kitchens and I was told it all depends on the inspector as to what's allowed and what's not if it's not in writing.  And many times that is also left up to chance. Many items are left up to interpretation. That makes me unsettled as hell. That's not OK in this industry. Black and white set of rules - no shades of gray, please, when dealing with food.


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

OK - I have since found out that I can put up a building in my backyard, outfit it and call it a day.  I may do this.  I will put the minimum equipment in that they require and drive on.  I've got to do a cost analyses first.  

The only thing I find as a positive about that - I can buy food and store it before going to the event.  That will allow me a few more gigs than I accept now.  I'd like one more a month to be where I want to be.  I have two on average now.  I'd like 2-3.  I am truly small potatoes and like it that way.

Since there is nothing in writing, I am still not convinced I cannot cook at their location and will continue to fight that fight.  In the meantime, sinks are cheap and I can get a small convection oven to satisfy the requirements - they cannot tell me how big of an oven I require.  Used equipment is easy to find.  I think a good cooler will be the biggest expense.  

Thanks, everyone, for your encouragement and advice.  Thank you for hanging in there with me.  I am not done fighting this fight.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

tryingcake said:


> I have asked this question. Actually outside catering has much less regulation... yes! So, if I were cooking outside at an outside event, the rules would be much more relaxed. I'm so perplexed I can't see straight.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You only need a letter saying that your leasing space from a HD inspected commissary kitchen. No one says you can't cook at your clients house also........Just sayin'


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

ChefBillyB said:


> You only need a letter saying that your leasing space from a HD inspected commissary kitchen. No one says you can't cook at your clients house also........Just sayin'


Well, this guy says I can't. When it's all said and done - I will continue my safer than required practices producing high quality end results in the manner I know is best. I'm all about the "just sayin'" attitude at this point.

Finding a commissary has been impossible thus far, That would make my life so much easier. If they are here, they are not listed in a way that they can be easily found.


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## chefbillyb (Feb 8, 2009)

tryingcake said:


> Well, this guy says I can't. When it's all said and done - I will continue my safer than required practices producing high quality end results in the manner I know is best. I'm all about the "just sayin'" attitude at this point.
> 
> Finding a commissary has been impossible thus far, That would make my life so much easier. If they are here, they are not listed in a way that they can be easily found.


After all the talking we have been doing I think you are trying to go forward in a backward thinking town. I don't think you alone can get the policies changed. They figure if it's not broken, don't fix it........They knows what they knows!


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## flipflopgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

tryingcake said:


> OK - I have since found out that I can put up a building in my backyard, outfit it and call it a day. I may do this.


With your luck the HOA will have a s##t fit and fine you lol.

But if not maybe you can find someone in your boat and lease this little backyard kitchen.

mimi


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## tryingcake (Oct 13, 2011)

flipflopgirl said:


> With your luck the HOA will have a s##t fit and fine you lol.
> 
> But if not maybe you can find someone in your boat and lease this little backyard kitchen.
> 
> mimi


haha! Yes, if I lived with an HOA. I live in the boonies on a river. I can paint my house flaming pink if I want. LOL! I know where I lived in SoCal - I wouldn't be allowed to do this due to the HOA, not even in my garage.


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