# Upgrade??



## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hello there

This is the sort of question I know you get all the time but here goes. I have a fair few knives, several Globals, I find hard to sharpen and easy to dull. Some wusthof which are ok at least they are easy to sharpen. A couple of Tojiros I like and after reading some advice on here I got a Mac Mighty which I found a game changer. So, for a bit more money than the Mac could I be amazed at the difference again? Or would it be a bit of a waste? I have enough speciality knives I'm looking for a go to general prep knife. At work I have large chopping boards and plenty of room. I use an edge pro to sharpen and a ceramic rod to hone. Alright I sometimes use a diamond steel on my German knives a work if in a rush. Anyway any advice/recommendations would be welcomed.

Ps I'm from England and the Mac cost roughly £100 my money

Thanks

Joe


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

A MAC Mighty for 100 sterling is a great deal.

That's a heavy knife, you mind something lighter?

Why do you feel it was a game changer over the Tojiro (DP?).

I just heard a very good report of the Tojiro 521 (PM steel) from a very knowledgeable source. Nice flat looking profile and thin behind the edge, considerably superior steel to the MAC. It's not unusual for PM steels to hold an edge 3 times longer than good conventional stuff, if that's a game changer. Sounds a great deal here, and I have seen them for less even.


Rick


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

Heh, i started with wusthof and tojiro dp, then got a mac pro gyuto, then got a itinomonn kasumi gyuto.

I would agree that the mac was a game changer when i got it.

I'm no expert, but at mac level and beyond, it seems like its all personal preferrance. What kind of steel you prefer, what kind of geometry, what kind of handle. 

Maybe just find a cheap carbon steel gyuto and see if the easier sharpening justifies the incrased care needed not to rust. A wa handle is light, t3nds to make the knife more blad3 heavy which you may or may not like. Wa handles also gives you better access to the heel while sharpening imo.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Wow thanks so much guys. Change the angle to reach the heel?? Sorry how does one go about this and how much will I notice the difference? Apologies for my ignorance.

I would like a lighter knife Rick, that seems to be the way I am going. Yes my Tojiros are DPs. Using the same, probably not great, sharpening skills on the Mac as the Tojiros and other knives I just seem to get a far better longer lasting end product. After a go on a leather strop I feel it is truly sharper than anything I have owned. But matbe that's because I keep it in my knife case at work so nobody else touches it.

That Tojiro you sent the link to sounds like a great shout. The edge retention would be great. I love knives and have far too many that are very similar if I'm honest. I'm pretty much looking for one great one that makes my job easier with better results rather than another much of a muchness pretty good one.

Thanks again for your input guys


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

There are many ways to sharpen. I don't switch hands, so this is how I learned to do it: 




Mostly sharpening at an angle, but on the left side, sharpen the part near the heel perpendicular to the stone so you don't catch the handle.

@joe78 At the level you are looking at, there are plenty of options, but nobody can tell you what is the right knife for you. I like a certain type, but it is not good for 99% of people out there. So tell us what you don't like about your mac or tojiro in terms of sharpening, edge taking, cutting performance on different products, and maybe you will get more specific recommendations.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

I believe I now understand the MAC revelation.  VG10 isn't the easiest steel to sharpen, as it produces a tenacious burr.  I thought that the sharpening part might be the revelation with the MAC over the Tojiro DP and others you have.

Just so far as the 521 is concerned, I'm pretty sure it will go the MAC one better for keeness, and burr removal should be a breeze.  Both finish and do touch-ups by stropping on a 6K stone.  I'm not sure if bare leather has much effect on PM steels, all those vanadium/tungsten/niobium carbides.  I think the edges succumb to carbide drop-out before loss of true.

Rick


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks very much for sharpening advice. Anything like that is just as valuable to me as the knives I have. Any tips on how to get the best out of my tools are greatly welcomed. While I appreciate every person has a different preference for what they want from a knife, there is the fact I very much doubt I will get to try anything before I buy it, hence the shout for help from you guys.

I can find the previously mentioned tojiro 521 for £86, so am thinking that will take some beating as its cheaper than my Mac!! Or am I wrong??

So what I do and don't like about my Knives:

Globals: Like the way they look.....about it

Henckels / Wusthof (find them similar) Easy to sharpen, I like the Wusthof classic handles, love how easy they are to sharpen. Don't like the fact that anything over about 15cm blade is very think and hard to slice nicely with and I find that I get less use out of the length of the blade than I do from say the tojiro or Mac.

Tojiro: The best I have other than the Mac. I can't say there is any fault in them. Just me not being able to sharpen them so well maybe and just don't feel as good in my hand as a wusthof or mac, like you've mentioned a personal thing.

Mac: It's the best I've had for getting sharp, staying sharp, not wedging in good and snapping it. Its hard for me to put it down when its the best I've used in every way. Ok, the mac logo on the knife does make me a little angry to look at!!

Tsuki: I had a 14 cm wusthof santoku which I gave to my brother. I really enjoyed that knife but he loved to look of it. Replaced it with one the same size of this brand. I know this has nothing to do with this discussion, but anyway... I find this knife the hardest of all to sharpen and doesn't last ten mins of use. Is it just me or is this brand rubbish?? This style and size of knives is one I use loads and loads so was wondering if this one is worth sticking with??

Got a Tojiro big almighty today. No idea what I will use it for but for £16 its fun to walk around the kitchen with!!

Thanks again for your patience everyone


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Tojiro black finished shiro-ko kasumi Gyutou  white carbon steel. Just noticed it online. Very cheap!!! Any good or a step in the wrong direction??


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## galley swiller (May 29, 2013)

joe78, can you post a link, so we can see what you are referring to?

GS


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

this thing? http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/121753029073?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

It's sold other places as Tojiro Shirogami ITK

I have the petty from this line. It's pretty thin actually. The blade road was uneven, like parts of it would not make contact with the board. The kurouchi comes off pretty fast even unintentionally. Fit and finish is atrocious on the handle itself, on how the handle is mounted, sharp spine, sharp choi, uneven bevel. Steel is chippy. It's white steel so fixing problems on stones is not terribly hard, it sharpens out really fast.

I'd pay a little more for something better, but I understand your buying options are limited over there.

If you haven't already check out

http://japanesechefsknife.com/ - $7 shipping worldwide from seki city japan

http://japanesenaturalstones.com/ - shipping from denmark, free shipping worldwide if you meet the minimum order


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

To tganks millionsknives that is the link to the one I was looking at. Hadn't seen the Danish store before so thanks. The more I'm looking the more confused I get. I know it's a personal choice but would the tojiro 521 seem a good shout for a choice in price range for mainly not too hard veg prep? JCK Original 輝 KAGAYAKI Aogami No.2 or is something like this playing a similar game??


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

thanks that sort of information is brilliant for me. I.don't want to make adjustments to the knife. Will look at those shortly Benuser


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Now with that Hiromoto  Santoku you have made me think again. I already love my Mac so thinking it seems silly to buy a replacement for my best knife. Surely replacing my rubbish santoku would make more sense as I love that style of knife when in going for more speed and a little less refine work. So to keep asking is there a stand out between the Hiromoto and a Tojiro F-517??


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

joe78 said:


> Now with that Hiromoto Santoku you have made me think again. I already love my Mac so thinking it seems silly to buy a replacement for my best knife. Surely replacing my rubbish santoku would make more sense as I love that style of knife when in going for more speed and a little less refine work. So to keep asking is there a stand out between the Hiromoto and a Tojiro F-517??


I'd say the hiromoto is probably thinner behind the edge. The AS should take a sharper edge, the PM steel should hold an edge longer. You have to treat AS like any other carbon, whereas the PM steel is stainless.

Rick


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi

It would seem Hiromoto is the way to go!! Didn't expect that when I came on here to be getting a Santoku!! Then that why I came here for opinions. Thin behind the edge, good retention and easy to sharpen, what more could I look for? Have to see how much it costs to get one to England!!


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

190mm is only 7" that's real short for a pro kitchen.  Good for scallions, shallots, garlic, but too short for a big onion, much too short for a cabbage.  I think it will add to your collection, but won't replace anything.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Millionsknives. Fair point. Again why I'm here. Like you say too small for a cabbage. I'm the only one in the kitchen who will make my slaw by hand, not processed  so that's something I need, but that's why I just got the Tojiro big almighty. I'm just looking to make work easier and I'm a little addicted to knives. Maybe I take a pic of the knives I have tomorrow and get some advice on where to go.

Cheers

Joe


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Been doing lots of looking. Kohetsu blue #2 240mm Gyuto looks good to me. Any reason why not?? Seems to tick my boxes.


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Shipping and import tax 

About the knife itself, I actually bought one used on a forum for a friend here.  It's stainless clad, thins out nicely.  The core steel sharpens easy, just make sure to keep it clean and dry.  Etching could help, or forcing a patina.  Mine was etched. 

Very good value for the blade, don't like the handle much, very big, very boxy.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Shipping and import tax are something I feel I will have to live with unfortunately!! Looked at a good few ranges. Took your advice about the santoku, I see a knife I like I want it. You cant choose my knives I know but is there anything else in that price range you have higher praise for Mr Millions?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Nothing I can think of.   I was very impressed by that knife at the price point.  Unless you're cleaver curious...  but chinese cleavers are a whole other world and have some learning curve


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Many thanks. Think I have enough to learn about the knives I currently use at the moment. In my head I had it narrowed down to this or the Tojiro that was kindly recommended to me. Will do a more detailed comparison on the geometry unless anyone else throws a recommendation to confuse me which is welcomed. Thanks !!


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

You know your right! Knife $99, shipping $51 and I had to pay £26 for to customs for the Mac, guess this will be similar, so pretty much doubling the cost. Thought it was too good!!!


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hello

Fair to say I am now stumped. The idea of a cladded knife with steel casing really appealed to me. Other people do sometimes take my knife at work and if its near the end of a shift you now and again don't realise till the next day, if they have left if not cleaned this pretty much rules out full carbon to me. Even the Tojiro f-521 is only available on amazon.com rather than the uk version again adding a big donk on shipping. Pretty much had my heart set on that or the kohetsu. Any ideas of and alternative knife or supplier?? I can only find them in fairly limited stockists.

Cheers

Joe


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

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joe78


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Oct 23, 2015








Do I also guess these are not much kop going by the cheap price? Cant seem to find much about them at all


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I am a big fan of the Itinomonn knives.  I have the kasumi one which is V2 carbon core that is stainless clad.  Awesome cutter, not too high maintenance.  I'm selling off a lot of my chefs knives because I prefer cleavers, but this one is a keeper. It's a little above your budget, but it ships free.  Don't know what import taxes are.   A lot of these knives go out of stock, but they are restocked regularly too.  I've seen it go in and out of stock twice since september.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks again. The shipping on the other  was $50 import tax will be the same for all of them. So pricing is evened out pretty much. Itinomonn a better bet for a pro kitchen in your opinion?


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Less than half an inch at the edge is exposed carbon, the rest is stainless.  It is very thin behind the edge.  Mine had some chipping, until I put a microbevel on.  If people are borrowing your knife, they can chip it with bad knife skills.  That's true of pretty much any high performance japanese knives though.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Too true, think I will keep it in my case. I was wrong the Kohetsu is still £30 less with current exchange rate. ​Last question. Your preference would be ......??


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

I got the kohetsu for just $80 for the 240 slightly used. Its great for the price but it costs too much for you to get it over there. My opinion having used both, itinomonn outclasses it in every way. With the small price diff itinomonn all the way.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

I'm not trying to ignore all the great advice. Just really like the look of this Kotetsu Iron Clad Gyuto 9.25" I can get from a uk dealer. Free shipping​ no import tax £195. Love how thin it is, steel clad, looks lovely to grip. Any reason I shouldn't order one??


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## atatax (Jan 8, 2015)

If you want me to post any pics of my 240mm itinomonn by itself or next to my 270mm mac, let me know

If you have the knife fever, shouldn't you get the slightly better, more expensive one now, instead of later?


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

The photos would be very helpful and nice of you. Thanks. Any experience with the Kotetsu Iron Clad Gyuto 9.25" I mentioned above?? ​

Joe


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## millionsknives (Apr 25, 2014)

Don't know much about it.  Iron clad is often more reactive than even the core steel.  Be prepared to force a patina.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

More than happy to do that. It really does tick boxes for me in a big way. I can see some you tube reviews on the 210 version but cant find much anywhere about this!!​


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

They are R2 stainless glad and 2mm on the spine. Found a thread on them, all looks good!


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## ones (Jul 22, 2015)

Joe,

I have the Shibata Kotetsu suji. Really thin and light, gets real sharp. Fit and finish impeccable. I'm sure you'll like the gyuto. Just for another point of comparison, seeing as how we are talking R2, did you check out the Gekido line from Japanese Chef Knives (you have to access it by looking up the 'what's new' tab on the site) ? Damascus with western handle.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

OneS said:


> Joe,
> 
> I have the Shibata Kotetsu suji. Really thin and light, gets real sharp. Fit and finish impeccable. I'm sure you'll like the gyuto. Just for another point of comparison, seeing as how we are talking R2, did you check out the Gekido line from Japanese Chef Knives (you have to access it by looking up the 'what's new' tab on the site) ? Damascus with western handle.


Glad to know the knife is a winner. I love the sound of it and the profile is so diff to anything I have. Thanks for the recommendation. I had a look. Very pretty knife. I'm just looking for a 240mm as I have lots between 180 and 210 already and nothing larger. If you see anything else you think of Holla, not gonna buy till next week when I have the funds!

Thanks for your time

Joe


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## ones (Jul 22, 2015)

Joe,

I only just thought of this one.

You may already have checked out this site, but the Swedish online shop cleancut.se have some reasonable stuff. I am ignorant of EU taxes, so dunno if shipping to the UK from Sweden is liable (are the Swedes even in the EU officially, now I come to think of it ? My knowledge of the EU derives mainly from Football Manager and who qualifies as an EU player - as a pointless aside - sorry.. ). Anyhow, on said site they have the following Shiro Kamo knives:

http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivserier/shiro-kamo-6-serier/shiro-kamo-kurai

These are R2 knives and completely stainless. I own a 24 cm gyuto in this series and it is stunning to look at - a relatively subtle damascene pattern - light, moves through ingredients like a laser-ish knife should. Some stiction, but not that bad. It is a tad chippy, like all R2 / SG2 knives but I imagine a pro like yourself will cope much better cf home cook like me. It is a little taller than the average, which I like. R2 seems to sharpen easily.

Cheers


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

OneS said:


> Joe,
> 
> I only just thought of this one.
> 
> ...


 Wow that is a lovely looker. How does it compare to your Kotetsu for performance?? Good site as well.

Thanks

Joe


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## ones (Jul 22, 2015)

Hard to compare as the Kotetsu is a suji, and I haven't used it half as much as the Kamo gyuto. Both are light and nimble and the Kamo gets real sharp, even with my beginner's freehand sharpening technique (am in the process of moving over from an Edge Pro). I haven't had to sharpen the Kotetsu yet. The only small black mark against the Kamo is the chippiness, really. I put a sizable chip sending it through pumpkin skin, and checking it today, have noticed much smaller, barely discernible chipping along the distal edge from daily use vs softer veg (carrot, cucumbers, onions et al). From what I have read this is likely a class effect for the R2s generally anyway, so the Kotetsu is unlikely to confer advantages there. Perhaps some of the others on the forum can share their experiences about R2's chippiness also. There no chipping on my Terayasu-Fujiwara White # 1 gyuto nor my Hiromoto Aog-Super santoku (which is now my de facto boning knife - so that says something) - but they are not stainless. There is also no chipping on my Misono UX-10s which are stainless - but they are nowhere near as sharp as the R2 or carbon steels. Again, being a pro, your knife technique may negate some of my experiences (I have to admit that I don't always resist the chance to put some lateral force into my cutting !)


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

OneS said:


> Hard to compare as the Kotetsu is a suji, and I haven't used it half as much as the Kamo gyuto. Both are light and nimble and the Kamo gets real sharp, even with my beginner's freehand sharpening technique (am in the process of moving over from an Edge Pro). I haven't had to sharpen the Kotetsu yet. The only small black mark against the Kamo is the chippiness, really. I put a sizable chip sending it through pumpkin skin, and checking it today, have noticed much smaller, barely discernible chipping along the distal edge from daily use vs softer veg (carrot, cucumbers, onions et al). From what I have read this is likely a class effect for the R2s generally anyway, so the Kotetsu is unlikely to confer advantages there. Perhaps some of the others on the forum can share their experiences about R2's chippiness also. There no chipping on my Terayasu-Fujiwara White # 1 gyuto nor my Hiromoto Aog-Super santoku (which is now my de facto boning knife - so that says something) - but they are not stainless. There is also no chipping on my Misono UX-10s which are stainless - but they are nowhere near as sharp as the R2 or carbon steels. Again, being a pro, your knife technique may negate some of my experiences (I have to admit that I don't always resist the chance to put some lateral force into my cutting !)


 Nice knife collection mate!! Some very good points for me. I don't expect to be able to smash through things with these knives but I would like to be able to slice/dice through things at a reasonable pace. I don't use too much force and was actually thinking that a carrot would be the hardest thing I would use it on. I'm changing my mind every 5 mins. Just seen this fella https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/takumi-ikeda/suminagashi/gyuto-925 and thinking he looks nice and thin but not too much ........ Then thinking in a work place should I stick to stainless. Need to make my mind up. I don't have much £$ so want to get it right. Your advice is really helpful.

Cheers

Joe


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## ones (Jul 22, 2015)

Thanks Joe, I am certainly starting to collect a few - enough that I may have to start 'hiding' some otherwise my wife may have questions about knife expenditures I would rather not answer..... (a problem I believe I share with a few others around the place/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif).

I suspect that if carrots are as hard as you will cut, you will be fine with R2 knives. There is likely to be come micro-chipping but, say, 5-10 mins on a 1000 grit stone followed by 5 mins on a higher grit stone of your choice would almost certainly get rid of them. Its taken me a month at home to accumulate the small chips so say you touch it up like that once a week or fortnight ? I suspect you will be very happy with the sharpness of the knife in between.

I really like the look of the Ikeda - really subdued but stunning in the right light. I toyed with getting that from Cutting Edge 6-12 months ago but the value of the 'Pacific peso' deterred me.

The need for stainlessness depends on your work circs, I guess. I imagine that in a very busy kitchen a carbon steel will be an 'accident waiting to happen' - forgotten, partially lying in small puddle for 15 mins, oooppss... Rust isn't the end of the world, but means more time devoted to upkeep, I suppose.

Stan


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice. Obviously I couldn't take it all. Got a couple of knives through and a 1000, 3000, 8000 cheapish set of stones. Final knife coming tomorrow. Very happy so far love the feel of the Santoku bit of a western fell but that suits me as have a lighter Nakiri on the way.


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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)




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## joe78 (Oct 14, 2015)

http://www.kataba.co.uk/kogetsu-nas...chestnut-tree-handle/#PhotoSwipe1447185811790 got this little one today. My favorite of the 3 so far. Not a great edge, obut that's sorted. Formed a patina on the edge. Looking forward to putting him to work. Can't upload my photos now for some reason. Anyway, thanks guys I have now got clad powder steel and carbon to try. Enjoying both so far, see what happens.....


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## ones (Jul 22, 2015)

Nice knives, Joe. Looks like very good value right across the board. As you said, a spread of stainless and carbon to play with. Make sure you send us up some 'family' photos !


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