# Buying Advice Japanese Chef Knife



## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Hello ChefTalk Forum,

it's my first post here, so I hope I didn't miss any rules. 

I will be in Tokyo in a month or two (and I come from Germany, if that should be relevant in any way). My plan was to buy a single chef knife to build a "collection" around it. I do have all basic knifes, so this is supposed to be a significant upgrade from my http://www.wuesthof.com/germany/products/Product-details/cook-s-knife-4582-20.

I'll just go right at it.

*Price*: aprox. €150-200/$162-215 (excluding sharpening stones)

*Handle*: German style preferred

*Blade form*: Leaning towards western chef knife (I mostly cut in a rocking motion)

*Blade length*: 20cm/8inch

My current favourite is the Shun Premier 8 inch ().

I love almost every aspect of this knife (VGmax, beautiful finish, hammered, nice handle), but then again, I am a total newbie when it comes to Japanese knife.

Is there an actual benefit to a hammered finish? I am hoping less food will stick, but I have no experience with hammered knives. If that is not the case, I suppose it just adds to the maintenance.

Would you guys consider this knife a worthwhile investment or would you advise me to reconsider my choice? I am aware of the extensive care such a knife requires, in fact I am looking forward to getting into the process of proper sharpening and maintenance and taking care of such a beautiful piece for the years to come.

Also, since I will buy in Japan, how will the price be influenced? There are supposed to be small, non-chain retailers who sell them for a lower price, so maybe I could also look in knives above €200?

Thanks already for your help & best regards

Dalai Lamer


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Hi @dalaiLamer, welcome to Cheftalk

If I had my guess, I'd say that if you're looking for very rocking motion friendly Japanese knives, you probably already have access to them online with Shun and Yaxell brand knives. Can't comment on pricing of buying while in Japan. It might be a good chance to get something less commonly available as opposed to viewing it as a chance to get something normally available for cheaper, but this is just my impression.

Biggest thing will be to get a sharpening plan together for your current and future knives. How are you sharpening the Wuesthof?

Have you looked into Herder 1922 series chef's knives? @Benuser should be able to talk more about these. Monosteel carbon, will need to have the bolster managed as with your current Wuesthof knife.

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/robert-herder-1922-series.htm


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Hello @foody518,

you are making a very good point, but shopping for not commonly known knives makes this already complicated matter even harder for me.

Up until now, I didn't find it necessary to invest in sharpening stones, as here in Germany I can have knives sharpened for a fairly small price. I suppose this won't be the case with Japanese knives. (However, Shun offers free sharpening so that could bridge the gap while I practice sharpening the Wuesthofs on the stones I will invest in.) I'm currently on a longer stay abroad so I just want to buy the knife and take care of the rest when I am back in Germany.

The one you posted seems like a good choice, but I fail to see the upside compared to Shun. Care to elaborate?

Best regards!

/e The Herder 1922 seems like a German atempt to copy Japanese knives (thin blade, 60 HRC). Wouldn't it be better to buy the "original"?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

As a user of that exact knife I can attest to the fact that it can be sharpened very sharp, stays sharp, and when used properly does all the necessary chef cutting needs. When it gets dull it gets very dull. When dropped or used improperly it can chip. That's part of the challenge of a thinner and harder blade. The hammering is pretty but only cosmetic in my experience... but then again I don't have nearly as much complaint about food sticking to blades a some folks do. If you like that aesthetic and willing to pay the price its a good knife. I also have classic series Shun, including an 8 inch chef. They actually perform quite similarly. When sharpening they can be a bit of a challenge but I don't find the care needed to be "extensive". Normal sharpening is all mine have ever needed... and its a lot less sharpening required than German blades (I have Henckels Four-Star from the 1980's too). Don't get rid of your Wusthofs, though... you'll want them for "heavier work". There are all sorts of alternatives that will get mentioned... its up to you and your needs/desires really.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Benuser said:


> As for the Herder 1922, it has almost the traditional French profile with just a bit more belly. Not for heavy rock-choppers. And has nothing to do with copying Japanese yo-gyotos. Please understand the Japanese have taken the French chef's knife of 1890 as an example for their western knives, just as did the English in Sheffield and Germans in Solingen. But since, all have developed in their own way.
> And the Shun are very atypical. Most Japanese-made Western blades have a low tip.


Bernard, can you comment on the grind of the Herder 1922?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Rock-chopping with a Japanese knife is a bad idea.


Thanks for the advice, I will refrain from using this knife for chopping then! What would you say is the limit of what to cut with a HRC 60(+) in terms of hardness? A carrot? Squash? 


Benuser said:


> And has nothing to do with copying Japanese yo-gyotos. Please understand the Japanese have taken the French chef's knife of 1890 as an example for their western knives, just as did the English in Sheffield and Germans in Solingen. But since, all have developed in their own way.


Oh OK, I was under the impression hard steel --> Japan and softer steel --> Germany, regardless of the form (obviously there are always exceptions).

Great to find such a knowledgeable forum!

So coming back to the topic, it seems like the Shun is a decent choice? If someone does have insight on the already mentioned, lesser known Japanese knives or where to start researching, that would be very interesting.

Best regards

/e Went trough some older threads, lot of Shun bashing going on there. Seems like I should reconsider.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

From Benuser's post - "Be prepared to reconsider your technique, or stay with softer blades."

The point is the cutting technique and motion used. Carrots and squash with harder, thinner knives are no problem with more edge-friendly technique.

The limited recommendations are going to be based off what feedback you've given on preferred cutting motion (rocking) which doesn't play nice with such thin edges which hold up less well to lateral forces and steel that tends to break (microchip) before bending.

The blade profiles that rocking works for - typical German style knives, Shun, Yaxell. And sharpen as much or as little as your technique necessitates.

I'd suggested the Herder as something that still plays into working alright with a more rocking motion, but of harder steel to have better edge holding than your Wuesthofs, an example of a good European carbon steel. Not really all that similar to Shun even ignoring all else but the carbon vs stainless difference. And there are reasons to prefer carbon (ease of sharpening, well-used and maintained tool look with the patina that conveniently hides scratches from sharpening and general use), was trying to gauge your preference for or against. 

Is the current sharpening for your Wuesthof managing the fingerguard bolster well?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> From Benuser's post - "Be prepared to reconsider your technique, or stay with softer blades."
> 
> The point is the cutting technique and motion used. Carrots and squash with harder, thinner knives are no problem with more edge-friendly technique.
> 
> ...


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

To clarify, there's 'high carbon steel' which for simplicity's sake I'm calling 'carbon steel' which is not stainless, like the Herder, and 'high carbon stainless steel' contains ~13% or more chromium, which is just being referred to as 'stainless steel', like Shun Premier.

You'll want try for the cutting motions described in this video with higher hardness steels and thinner edges where the knife fully comes off the board for each cut


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> To clarify, there's 'high carbon steel' which for simplicity's sake I'm calling 'carbon steel' which is not stainless, like the Herder, and 'high carbon stainless steel' contains ~13% or more chromium, which is just being referred to as 'stainless steel', like Shun Premier.
> 
> You'll want try for the cutting motions described in this video with higher hardness steels and thinner edges where the knife fully comes off the board for each cut


I will adjust accordingly.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

If you really want to you can rock-chop with most any knife, like when you make the blade dance all over the board. With harder steel you just need to microbevel conservatively, and use good technique of course.

Here you see Rick using a $600 Tanaka Ironwood (very hard SG2 steel) and flatish profile, and rock chopping at his typical insane pace.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

So, including this additional information, which is the knife I should be looking for when I'm in Japan?

I've come to understand that the Shun was a pretty poor choice. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

So what's your better choice?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Well that's what I'm asking you guys /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif after all, you are the pros

From what I've picked up, these seem like a better choice:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...uchi-210mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/masamoto-vg-series

Little bit too expensive, might be less expensive in Japan: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohdkn.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rihakn.html

But again, I am completely overwhelmed by the diversity of Japanese knifes.

What's your better choice?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Could you reiterate what you are looking for? Blade profile, stainless vs not, thickness or thinness of grind, etc?


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

... and as an alternative approach... state your destinations in Japan and ask if anyone knows of good knife/cookery shops in those cities/towns. It might end up being a better experience if you are a bit open-minded.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Sorry my answer is currently pending approval.

I'm looking for a Gyuto style blade, carbon steel, high hardness, thin. 


Spoiler: KNF Questionnaire 



What country are you in?
- Germany, knife to be bought in Tokyo

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef's knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
- Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
- Right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
- Western, but that's not that important to me

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
- 210ish

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
- Stainless handle (the part of the steel that's in the handle) would be nice, other than that a carbon steel blade

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
- $215 (again, I might be able to get the knife for a lower price)

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

- Home use

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
- Veggies and meat

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
- Wüsthof Classic chef knife 8 inch

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? 
- Not that I know of.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? 
- Push cutting up-and-down chopping motions sounds about right, as well as a locomotive-like motion

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
- Better edge retention, overall sharper

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
- As a bonus, sure. A nice handle would be the most important in terms of aesthetics

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
- Lighter, good handle. But that's secondary.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
- Ability to use knife right out of the box, better food release.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
- I'm a home cook, I am hoping for 2 or 3 weeks at least.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
- Of course.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
- No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

- Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
- Yes, but at a later point in time and with a separate budget.


Good idea Brian, but I'm only traveling for 3 or 4 days and I don't want to force my company to spend two days buying a knife with me. If I should meet someone by chance, sure tho 

/e Oh I misunderstood, there seems to be a specific street in Tokyo which is supposed to be the hot-spot of local cooking supplies, somewhere around "Kappabashi Dogugai Dori". This is where I wanted to go, but I don't have a good feeling going there without a knife or two in mind.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

dalaiLamer said:


> Sorry my answer is currently pending approval.
> 
> I'm looking for a Gyuto style blade, carbon steel, high hardness, thin.
> 
> ...


Understood. I travel with others, too, for business. Those are the times when there is almost no opportunity for personal shopping, etc unless they are also like-minded... which isn't often. And its sometimes even worse when travelling with family on pleasure! Perhaps you should be focused on finding the knife of your dreams from a seller who will ship to your home. I have no idea what knife/cookery shops are like in Japan but when I've been buying specialty cooking equipment in Europe I found it virtually impossible to just run into a shop and grab what I want and get out fast... so long ago I stopped trying to mix pleasure with business unless I'm alone and in better control of my time. Its hard enough mixing pleasure with vacation, it seems.  Good luck in whatever you choose to do or buy.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If you'll be in Tokyo, Osaka, Sakai, Seki, or Kyoto, I don't think you'll have trouble finding knife shops. Other than that, I am not sure how well the typical offerings bought by us customers outside of Japan fare in terms of regular knife shop availability (like, I don't know if your typical shop on Kappabashi street stocks Misono).

Here's a link dug up by lord Google about various knife shops one can visit
http://yayasyumyums.blogspot.com/2011/08/knife-shops-in-japan-tokyo-kyoto-osaka.html?m=1


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

foody518 said:


> If you'll be in Tokyo, Osaka, Sakai, Seki, or Kyoto, I don't think you'll have trouble finding knife shops. Other than that, I am not sure how well the typical offerings bought by us customers outside of Japan fare in terms of regular knife shop availability (like, I don't know if your typical shop on Kappabashi street stocks Misono).
> 
> Here's a link dug up by lord Google about various knife shops one can visit
> http://yayasyumyums.blogspot.com/2011/08/knife-shops-in-japan-tokyo-kyoto-osaka.html?m=1


That would be interesting to find out, indeed. My experience is that most folks, in general, have the same kind of nationalist attitude - "we don't export our best stuff; what you get is our junk." My first experience with that attitude was regarding beer in Canada, Germany, and England... only to find out that they were enjoying "the finest imported American beer" like Budweiser and Coors. I don't know who was laughing at each other or sneering more - them or us.  Since then I've found it to be pervasive across many product types.

Your link sounds interesting but I got the following (abridged) message:

"... has been blocked because it has been determined by Web Reputation Filters to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware." Our web reputation filter may be rather conservative but this is the first time I've seen this message. Just FYI.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Brian - what I was referring to is that there are a whooooole lot of kitchen knife brands overall not to mention OEMs that go under different names but are essentially the same knife. I'd be leery of throwing out specific names like Yoshikane without knowing where they are based and which shops may directly stock their knives (since the OP is looking to go to brick and mortar shops), or maybe the name they put for the domestic market is not something I would recognize, or maybe there are several makers who put out that style of knife and I simply haven't run across the other names.

My assumption is that *not* every knife shop there will be like how the typical higher end chain brick and mortar locations are here where they pretty much stock the same limited selections of Wuesthof Henckels Shun. I think there's likely to be a bit more diversity, or at least that you can go and visit specifically places like Aritsugu Tsukiji or Sakai Yusuke which will stock 'their' knives. Some of these retailers do have online presence and can take orders internationally, or there's English-language friendly vendors who take some of this stock, but obviously there's an advantage to visiting in person that the OP could take advantage of

Thanks for the heads up about the link, wasn't trying to put something harmful or spammy and didn't run into any errors opening it on phone or computer.


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

Good clarification. I understood you completely. [emoji]128578[/emoji]


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

The Tojiro HSPS knives are something to check out in Japan as the prices will likely be 40% lower than here in the States, same with MAC, you can get a good deal on their excellent bread knife, if you're into those.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Okay, the thing is, most knife shops in Japan have quite limited stocks. If you're looking for some particular knife, you're going to have to know which shop you're going to well in advance. I would recommend that you not do this: you'll waste time better spent doing more fun things in Japan.

The deal on price and such is very simple. You pay based on the exchange rate of Euros to Yen (currently pretty decent, around 1:120). Taxes can be removed at the airport, but chances are your knife shop won't know how to do this, nor will you be able to explain (unless you speak Japanese). No fees. Roughly speaking, I'd say you'll save something like 20-25% against buying the same knife in Germany. They will almost certainly want to sharpen the knife for you, which is free and something you should definitely do unless you're very good at it.

Tokyo: if you're visiting Tsukiji fish market, there are several good knife shops. Kappabashi is fun, but I wouldn't go there for knives; if you're in that area, though, you might consider a jaunt across the river to Sumida, where Masamoto's office/shop is.

Kyoto: Aritsugu is in Nishiki Market. You'll pay through the nose--there goes your 20% bonus--but they speak several languages and know all about taxes and whatnot.

Osaka: Sakai is now inside the city limits, and you can just go to Sakai Takayuki, where there's a sort of knife museum and shop.

My strong advice is to do one of the following:

1. Skip it. It'll be time-consuming and awkward if you don't speak Japanese. Remember that most of the shops won't accept credit cards.

2. Buy an exciting (and expensive) Japanese-style knife, be it a gyuto or a single-bevel, and accept that it's going to be very different to what you're used to.

3. Buy a petty knife as a knife-oriented souvenir and just generally wallow in blade craziness.

Let me know if you need further details.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Rick Alan said:


> The Tojiro HSPS knives are something to check out in Japan as the prices will likely be 40% lower than here in the States, same with MAC, you can get a good deal on their excellent bread knife, if you're into those.


Definitely something I will look out for!


ChrisLehrer said:


> Okay, the thing is, most knife shops in Japan have quite limited stocks. If you're looking for some particular knife, you're going to have to know which shop you're going to well in advance. I would recommend that you not do this: you'll waste time better spent doing more fun things in Japan.
> 
> The deal on price and such is very simple. You pay based on the exchange rate of Euros to Yen (currently pretty decent, around 1:120). Taxes can be removed at the airport, but chances are your knife shop won't know how to do this, nor will you be able to explain (unless you speak Japanese). No fees. Roughly speaking, I'd say you'll save something like 20-25% against buying the same knife in Germany. They will almost certainly want to sharpen the knife for you, which is free and something you should definitely do unless you're very good at it.
> 
> ...


@ChrisLehrer, great info! You seem to be having experience buying knives in Japan? Interesting that you point out the fish market, that's contrary to everything I read so far and plays way better into my planned activities. Any particular shops you could point out?

My main concern is being cheated or ill-advised since I'm obviously a stupid foreigner. Is this fear unfounded?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Sorry for the double-post, this post will need approval and I don't want the delay.

According to what I've read so far, these are some of the knives I would be looking for, if any of these are a bad investment please point that out;

*Konosuke HD2 210mm Gyuto*

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohd21wa.html

- Semi-stainless might be nice

- I would only buy it if it's less than €200

*Kohetsu HAP40 Western Gyuto 210mm*

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohagy21.html

*Miyabi Knives - Which line is recommendable for a max of €200? *

http://www.zwillingonline.com/cutlery-miyabi.html

*Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm - My current favorite. *

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html

*IKAZUCHI 210MM STAINLESS CLAD BLUE SUPER WA-GYUTO*

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...chi-210mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyutoA

And *Masamoto* knives, although no specifics as of yet, as well as Rick's *Tojiro HSPS* knives.

Best regards


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Should have price tags on the items, I'd venture to say your potential struggle could be not quite communicating what you're looking for (language/vocab barrier). Though a relative of mine who just visited Japan managed to get me a knife (for sure the knife had a price tag) and natural stone both pretty fitting to what I requested :O, maybe I'm overestimating communication barriers, at least for some shops


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

dalaiLamer said:


> Sorry for the double-post, this post will need approval and I don't want the delay.
> 
> According to what I've read so far, these are some of the knives I would be looking for, if any of these are a bad investment please point that out;
> 
> ...


Wow, sorry I totally missed this. Post must have showed up late because of the links

Konosuke, Ikazuchi - lasers! Very thin knives, minimize lateral stressors please!

Thought, you will not find Ikazuchi in Japan I think. It's a JKI house brand knife, probably very specific specs and contracts with regards to its production.

Moritaka AS - I lean towards recommending *against* this as a first Japanese knife. The cladding is probably going to take you off guard with how quickly it can develop orange rust while cutting reactive foods. The flat but continuous curve profile with a quite low tip is also likely a poor candidate from what I gathered is your cutting motion. Also not sure how likely you are to find this in a given shop in Tokyo...you could try emailing Moritaka Hamono to ask. Whatever you do, check out the direct Moritaka Hamono website so you don't pay or infer a stupid price like on the link you found


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Wow, sorry I totally missed this. Post must have showed up late because of the links
> 
> Konosuke, Ikazuchi - lasers! Very thin knives, minimize lateral stressors please!
> 
> ...


No problem at all. There is plenty of time left!

Avoid very thin knives, alright, noted that down. Doesn't seem ideal for a J-knife beginner in retrospective.

Quickly as in keep it dry, always, or quickly as in slice a crate of lemons and buy a new knife? Exaggerating here for the sake of clarity obviously.

I practiced this thrusting cutting motion recently and actually feel quite comfortable with it.

Quite a price difference for exactly the same knife, thanks for pointing that out! For the price one their website I should grab a petit knife as well 

Best regards


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

If you've felt comfortable practicing the thrust cutting motion, I think you could be fine going the laser route. Using a much thinner knife like that is an experience. Just avoid forcing the knife through foods which risks torquing the blade. If you manage to run into like Sakai Yusuke or Konosuke or Ashi in a brick and mortar shop, you can hold one and get a feel for if it feels manageable or if it's too light and thin. It's just that I don't think you'll find Ikazuchi there :O

Other brands I'm tentatively more confident you might run into - Misono, Masahiro, Suisin. These should have a more familiar feel with their western handles, but will be lighter per length and have somewhat thinner blades that what you are used to using. I'll try to get a photo tomorrow comparing thicknesses of some of the knives mentioned so far.

Rick's mentioned Tojiro HSPS (Tojiro F-5XX series, whereas Tojiro DP is the F-8XX series) if you find these knives and they are in your budget range, they look to be a great choice if you value edge retention. 

Quickly as in rinse or wipe on a wet towel intermittently while cutting reactive/acidic foods especially when new, rinse and fully dry it off promptly when not in use. I took off some surface orange gunk (didn't want to take the chance that it would be rust) the other week when cutting onions and bell peppers and not rinsing/wiping frequently enough.


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## playero (Nov 20, 2016)

if going to japan in some shops you are going to be ask what you will be cutting. they have different knives for different fish, for chicken, meat etc. in some stores they have finished knives but do not have handles. they will install the handle that you choose. the japanese use their knives in a different way although they use them more than the west. most of the food is cut to bite size chunks. you can try takeshi saji which does super work or see if you find the Carter group which is in japan visiting knife makers. http://www.finejapanesekitchenknives.com/index.php check chris knives also. enjoy your trip


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Wow, scary story. Knowing me, that probably would happen at some point. 

Yes they definitely are in my price range (USD150-215) and I will be on the lookout for them, but something that develops more of a patina would be nice. So I guess something without a cladding of a harder cladding? 

Off-topic: Why do knife makers add claddings? Especially this soft Moritaka cladding seems like it only has drawbacks apart from aesthetics, which eventually manifest themselves in an unnecessarily higher price?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Earlier you'd stated carbon steel okay as long as the tang in the handle is stainless? Not sure how much of this you'll find. If you find a western handle monosteel carbon knife, I'm fairly confident the steel of the full tang is the same steel. With a wa-handle, the tang is hidden, but you do need to watch for the tang-handle juncture and wiping that dry

There are trade-offs to monosteel vs clad/laminate construction of course. 



 this is Murray Carter's input on the subject. He uses stainless cladding so it's a bit different. But FWIW I haven't yet seen non-differentially hardened monosteel Aogami Super steel (if you find monosteel AS please let me know haha. I think it might be too brittle). Might be a forging/manufacturing thing, but clad AS is actually available. The gokunan-tetsu cladding of Moritaka likely has some higher level of impurities than the core steel, as well as is lacking in Chromium, hence the reactivity. But I can also thin mine with relative ease and make it look sexy 




  








20170106_170639.jpg




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foody518


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Apr 9, 2017







What are you referring to with "unnecessarily higher price"?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm not dead set on a stainless tang, would sure be nice though. I am not sure how easy it is to detect a rusting tang and I do not intend to find out for myself. 

Ah of course, I, as a newbie sharpener, did not think about the advantages of thinning a blade with a softer cladding. Also, it was hard for me to imagine that a cladding could cushion a knife.

My train of thought was that the claddings main purpose is to protect the core steel from rusting, which makes an even more reactive cladding pointless. Hence the confusion. 

The price thing? It should require a lot more work-hours to create a "cladded" knife compared to a monosteel version, with the only trade-off being the possibly lower priced steel used for cladding, so you pay a notable premium for an mostly optical effect. Well, so I thought...

Truly a gorgeous knife, I would love to call one of these my own. I cannot promise that I won't impulse buy if I run across one of these in Tokyo. 

I always prefer when one can see that actual work has been put into an object, by an actual human, as opposed to highly polished industrial products (yes, I wanted to buy a Shun initially, jokes on me).


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Areas where you are most likely to get rust (short of accidentally submerging the whole blade in water...) are visible and are mostly able to get wiped down or scrubbed in the case of forming rust -blade face, blade-handle juncture, spine and choil, exposed tang on something like a western handled full carbon blade (where your hand wraps around the blade. With some handle types, it can be hard to remove all the rust at the blade - handle juncture without knocking off the handle :/ so be diligent about fully wiping dry!

Seems like you can also use less core steel in the laminated construction vs monosteel 

The price comparison is not necessarily valid unless there's for example a monosteel Aogami Super knife to compare to. I just can't really recall seeing more than a few examples monosteel Aogami/Aoko knives in the price range we are talking about.

Not my area of deep knowledge, but I think it's more historical and forging technique than optical - To my small understanding, there were also Japanese swords of a clad construction.

I wish I knew much of anything about the relative availability of the more rustic looking knives in Tokyo brick and mortar shops :O Can you chime back in on that after your trip please?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Absolutely, that's the least I can do after all the help I'm receiving here! I'll try to make a few snapshots, too,

I'm still indecisive about where to go knife shopping though. @ChrisLehrer suggested the fish market, almost every other source told me to go to this kitchen supply area. I should send him a PM sometime soon to help make up my mind. Tokyo is a bit overwhelming for just a couple of days.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Yes! Pictures are always appreciated

FWIW I've heard both, Kappabashi as well as Tsukiji. Aritsugu Tsukiji and Masamoto Tsukiji you can go to check out specifically their respective brands of knives


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

FWIW I've heard both, Kappabashi as well as Tsukiji. Aritsugu Tsukiji and Masamoto Tsukiji you can go to check out specifically their brands of knives (and probably some other shops I don't know of)


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

I believe Suisin is in Tsukiji too. Note that Masamoto Tsukiji has nothing whatsoever to do with Masamoto Souhonten, which is just across the river from Asakusa.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Then what's your opinion on pricing? Tsukiji definitely is one of the main tourist attractions, shouldn't that reflect on the price? 

On the other hand, the proximity to tourists could result in a few English speaking vendors. Or is it possible to find those in the known shops in Kappabashi as well?

Also, any shops in the Tsukiji area you could recommend? I would think mono-brand stores are generally more expensive, at least that was my experience in Germany.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.aritsugu.jp/shopping/shop/products/list.php?category_id=64
Gyuto at the bottom of the page. Website of the Tsukiji shop. Worst case you can cross reference appearances and prices to here, there is stuff in your price range. "A" alloy steel I think is some sort of semi stainless. Not totally sure what "alloy" steel is


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

OK since it is obviously really hard to give definite advice in my case, is there anything I should be aware of or anything I should take care of not to do/buy when I go shopping in Tokyo?

Also, is it easier to sharpen a knife with a tip like the lower one compared to the upper one (disregard the broken tip, that's just the first image on google)?

I would assume it is easier to hold the correct angle when the tip is closer to the edge of the blade. Hope it is clear what I mean, I'm missing the terminology.





  








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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Re: tip sharpening, I find it easier to sharpen blades that have less drastic curvature per length, if that makes sense. And somewhat low tips easier to reach cleanly than very high ones.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

foody518 said:


> http://www.aritsugu.jp/shopping/shop/products/list.php?category_id=64
> Gyuto at the bottom of the page. Website of the Tsukiji shop. Worst case you can cross reference appearances and prices to here, there is stuff in your price range. "A" alloy steel I think is some sort of semi stainless. Not totally sure what "alloy" steel is


Oh -- _avoid_ that A-steel unless you're quite good at sharpening. It's a proprietary alloy, apparently pretty much indestructible--which also means you can't sharpen it worth a darn. Back in the day, there were passionate arguments about this on Fred's Cutlery Forum, and I think the general opinion was that this stuff is fabulous if you're very good at sharpening and have excellent equipment, and awful for everyone else. I think the only guy I recall who really loved it used one of those sharpening rigs where you have the stones on long rods and run them up and down the edge clamped at a precise angle.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

dalaiLamer said:


> Then what's your opinion on pricing? Tsukiji definitely is one of the main tourist attractions, shouldn't that reflect on the price?
> 
> On the other hand, the proximity to tourists could result in a few English speaking vendors. Or is it possible to find those in the known shops in Kappabashi as well?
> 
> Also, any shops in the Tsukiji area you could recommend? I would think mono-brand stores are generally more expensive, at least that was my experience in Germany.


I can't really comment on which shops are good and bad in Tsukiji, other than to say that Aritsugu is terrific for what it is.

Nor can I speak to whether these brands are available in the shops in Kappabashi. It's a very different system. For example, Aritsugu-Kyoto knives are available (a) at their shop in Nishiki Market, and (b) in Takashimaya department store, in Kyoto. Period. Otherwise, it's all mail order.

Your problem is that you can't use the mail-order system. You don't read and write enough Japanese (I'm guessing), you don't have time, you don't have a Japanese bank account, and you're not legally entitled to import Japanese knives to your country direct. So you're stuck with one-brand shops and catch-as-can.

My advice is to stop worrying. Just go wherever it is you're going to go, ask the best hotel concierge you can about a good place to get knives, and buy something that will serve as a good souvenir. It's just not worth the agony, you know? But if you must, I've heard only the best things about Aritsugu-Tsukiji. I have one of their knives, but I bought it mail-order, so all I can say is that it was worth every penny.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

Benuser said:


> http://zknives.com/knives/steels/gokinko.shtml


Fascinating. Thank you!

Edit: That's not sarcasm. I actually found that very interesting.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

ChrisLehrer said:


> Oh -- _avoid_ that A-steel unless you're quite good at sharpening. It's a proprietary alloy, apparently pretty much indestructible--which also means you can't sharpen it worth a darn. Back in the day, there were passionate arguments about this on Fred's Cutlery Forum, and I think the general opinion was that this stuff is fabulous if you're very good at sharpening and have excellent equipment, and awful for everyone else. I think the only guy I recall who really loved it used one of those sharpening rigs where you have the stones on long rods and run them up and down the edge clamped at a precise angle.


I wonder if some part of that also goes back to what stones were more commonly available to westerners 'back in the day', relatively speaking. There's some more stuff that will cut even tough PM High Speed Tool steels pretty quickly and easily, would hope that stuff would work on the A-steel too. Though, I could understand that thinning hardened semi-stainless monosteel could really suck


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

OK guys, help me out here. So far, Aritsugu knives seem to be my best lead - both in terms of value as well as actual, geographic availability.

This review (http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/aritsugu/aritsugugy270.shtml) mentions the fact that these knives will not be sharpened when bought, meaning I could probably have it sharpened in store. This review further mentions that if properly sharpened, maintaining these knives is fairly easy. Doesn't that mean I could dodge most of the sharpening issue and just give the knife away to a professional when it needs thinning or other more work-intensive things?

Also, the review mentioned a 90/10 bevel, which I definitely don't want. Given the cheat-sheet with Japanese knife-related vocabulary I have prepared so far, I could probably communicate my wish?

Best regards, and thanks for your patience!


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## brianshaw (Dec 18, 2010)

You may be misinterpreting the situation on sharpening. The difference between "maintaining" and "sharpening" is not cleanly differentiated. If you can do one you can do the other. Suggest you give more attention to accepting the need to learn to sharpen unless you know there is a competent professional who can take care of that for you. But in general, my suggestion is getting comfortable with the idea of sharpening yourself. The worst that can happen (save spending too much time doing the wrong thing with a really coarse stone) is that the blade gets scratched, or not properly sharpened and you'll need to find a specialist to sharpen it.


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

Dali as Zknives stated any work done by Aritsugu will cost a relative fortune. The knives come unsharpened and thick at the edge, the idea being that the buyer will add in/have added in the lead-in angle, amount of convexity, etc. And, as a number of people have described, it's a 3 hour job [for an experienced individual] using a 120-140 grit diamond stone as a starter. These are not for you, so far as I can see, there being lots of better options requiring no work, considering the costs.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

You're going to find some level of asymmetry in probably many of the offerings. The fact that the review says 90/10 isn't even necessarily that helpful, as it doesn't speak about whether it's same angle on both sides with a heavily displaced edge, or a acute angle one side and obtuse on the other with less of an off centered edge. It matters more to understand the blade grind and not simply the edge bevel. You get better performance as a righty using a right-asymmetric ground blade, and just correct for steering with technique adjustment and tweaking the bevels as needed.

Sounds like what the Zknives guy was doing was some pretty significant thinning OOTB, in which case thinning hardened monosteel can really take up a lot of time

If you will actually go to their shop, it can't hurt to ask if they'll do an initial sharpening service for you as you are buying the blade right in front of their eyes.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

BrianShaw said:


> You may be misinterpreting the situation on sharpening. The difference between "maintaining" and "sharpening" is not cleanly differentiated. If you can do one you can do the other. Suggest you give more attention to accepting the need to learn to sharpen unless you know there is a competent professional who can take care of that for you. But in general, my suggestion is getting comfortable with the idea of sharpening yourself. The worst that can happen (save spending too much time doing the wrong thing with a really coarse stone) is that the blade gets scratched, or not properly sharpened and you'll need to find a specialist to sharpen it.


The idea of learning how to sharpen myself is actually one of the things I am looking forward to the most!

I see how my use of these words was misleading. What I meant is that getting the initial edge on the blade as well as, further down the road, knife thinning, are the most work-intensive and difficult tasks while re-sharpening the edge is comparably "easy". I am pretty sure I will be needing a professional's help for the first two tasks. 


Rick Alan said:


> Dali as Zknives stated any work done by Aritsugu will cost a relative fortune. The knives come unsharpened and thick at the edge, the idea being that the buyer will add in/have added in the lead-in angle, amount of convexity, etc. And, as a number of people have described, it's a 3 hour job [for an experienced individual] using a 120-140 grit diamond stone as a starter. These are not for you, so far as I can see, there being lots of better options requiring no work, considering the costs.


I understood that knife-customisations cost a fortune but that knife sharpening is usually complimentary when shopping in Japan. Only if that is the case, I would think about buying such a knife. In that sense, what @foody518 said;


> Originally Posted by *foody518*
> 
> If you will actually go to their shop, it can't hurt to ask if they'll do an initial sharpening service for you as you are buying the blade right in front of their eyes.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I've had to put initial edges on almost all my knives, ditto for all the thinning that's been done to them so far. I didn't know until very recently that there was someone in the area who did good sharpening, so learning then doing was a necessity. These are absolutely things a home cook and developing sharpener can try to do. You won't learn how to thin a knife or set bevels except by practicing.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

They will do the first sharpening in the store, unless things have changed very dramatically lately. They will not likely do thinning and such.

A-steel is a very, very bad choice for learning to sharpen or thin. It's ridiculously tough. You'd likely pick up some truly bad habits working with it. I'd say go Aritsugu but a different steel, such as carbon.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Sounds reasonable, then I know what my first destinations is going to be!


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Soo, I'm in Tokyo right now, and my first stop actually was Kappabashi because it's close to my hotel. 
Found two gorgeous knifes who are the top contenders right now, both with a core of blue steel #2 and a stainless cladding, 21cm.
It's a bit hard to find any information on those online.

This would be the first one; 




  








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It's the house brand from this shop Kamata Hakensha, which I think is quite known. Togiharu is the name. 
HRC of 61, blue #2 core and stainless cladding. Costs only €120, which is a plus, I guess.

The second one is this here:




  








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Found it in one of these apparently pretty old shops, not even 2 meters wide, two old Japanese shopkeepers who barely speak English apart from words like cladding and stainless. Enough thought, especially with my vocabulary sheet. 
The information I could get about this 21cm gyuto:
Core blue #2 
Company seems to be called Hontane, or maybe it's the person who made them? Forged on Tanega Island, and costs about €176. Very beautiful, mirror polish.

I am leaning towards the first one, since I can't really see the difference and it would leave some room in my budget for a peti knife. 
Any thoughts?

Shopkeeper are a bit anxious about taking photos, but I'm sure when I'm actually buying a knife they won't mind. Sorry for the bad formatting, I'm writing this from my phone.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

Hope you're enjoying Japan
Compare grind, thinness behind the edge of the two, weights, see if you can lay the knife flat somewhere and check out how the profile would look on a board
Whichever you'd think you're able to keep up with how it will look with usage and scratching and all that, if it matters to you 
Hard to tell from this end without pics XD


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You pay for the mirror polish.  As for the Togiharu, Korin carrie a brand by the name, 120 euros seems a very good price.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Will do that, thanks! 
Going to Tsukiji market tomorrow, after that I should have made a decision. 
Will let you guys know and upload a couple pictures hopefully.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Definitely, and I'll have something engraved!


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Hey guys,

I'm finally back in Seoul, and things are returning to normal, so let me give you a recap of my experience!

First of all, I checked out both, Tsukiji fish market as well as the Kappabashi area, two fundamentally different ways of shopping IMHO (Spoiler alert: I bought my knife in Kappabashi).

On the second day of my trip, I went to Kappabashi to check out a couple of stores and to get a sense of what's available. I focused my search on two roads, marked them yellow:





  








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Area 1 was my starting point, there were around 6 shops, all full of upmarket knives, rather small and really Japanese.

This is what this street looks like:





  








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And these are two of these shops:





  








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We will get back to them later.

Then, I went to the main road, to find shop number 2. It looked a lot more western, and the _owner _turned out to be American. Great, I thought, finally someone who is a fluent English speaker. Unfortunately, not only the owner was American, but the whole shop seemed to be geared towards tourists coming from said nation. Lot's of people stopping by to shop for some really pretty knives, the cheaper the better obviously. So that was a rather short visit, even though I enjoyed the chat.

On to shop number 3. Kamata Hakensha, most people around here seem to know this shop, so I guess there's not much to say about it. Some older Japanese guy explained all the different knives which were an option for me, in broken English, just like in the shops in area 1. Really sweet customer service, very patient and knowledgeable.

Being satisfied with what I had learned about the Tokyo knife market, I called it a day and went for some Sushi. My mate had endured enough knife shopping anyways.

Two days later, I went to Tsukiji. Got there around 10am, so it was packed with tourists, and when I say packed I mean no more than 2km/h walking speed packed. Anyway, sightseeing aside, I went to the recommended shops, Aritsugu and Masamoto.

Aritsugu was INCREDIBLY small. Literally the size of a street food stall. A guy was sitting in there, sharpening a knife, completely filling the "store". He didn't seem willing to speak English as well, and communication with my couple of papers of knife related vocabs and drawings also was very brief. Apparently, they didn't have what I was looking for. Same experience in the Masamoto shop, horrible advice, seemed like being geared completely towards souvenir shoppers and Japanese. Took me five minutes to find out which steel was used in the knife they were trying to sell me, and the only further information I could get was "best quality".

Not exactly my kind of shopping, so I checked out another store, but with a similar outcome. Overall, wouldn't recommend. IDK what I did wrong, but I can't see how this area can be recommended to buy knives to non-Japanese speakers.

So one day later, I returned to Kappabashi. I couldn't get the two knives I posted here a couple of days ago out of my head. I decided to go for the more expensive one, because:

1. I probably won't go to Japan for quite some time.

2. The shopkeeper seemed like he knows his shit.

3. You get what you pay for (or at least I hope that's how it works in Japan)

Bought the knife in the left shop from the 3rd picture. Here are some pictures from the inside:





  








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And that's all the shop. Between each sides, there's maybe 1 meter, 1,5 max.

Payed 25.000 Yen for my knife, so almost exactly €200. Walnut(?) handle, not that it really matters, stainless cladding which continues into the handle ofc, blue steel #2.

Some photos:





  








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Asked them to engrave "can' touch this", I guess what they engraved translates to something like don't touch this or whatever. Close enough.





  








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I'm not the best at taking pictures. Go here for a bit more:


http://imgur.com/a/99YaX


Also sorry for the bad formatting, it's kind of a pain in the ass creating such a post with just the forum software.

If you have any questions or comments, I'd be happy to hear from you guys!

Thanks a ton for all your help, I would have never been able to make this purchase without it!

Best regards,

Dalai_Lamer

@foody518 @ChrisLehrer @Benuser @BrianShaw @Rick Alan

/e

Forgot to mention, this is the knife after dicing two onions and some other stuff.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

@dalaiLamer

Wow thanks for chiming back in with pics and everything! 

Sorry to hear about those weird experiences with Aritsugu and Masamoto in Tsukiji >.<

I love seeing photos of shops that totally full of knives O.O

Congrats on your buy! Looks like a nice thin grind. Have you used the knife a bit already? 2nd to last photo makes it look like there is some patina on the core steel (though now I'm thinking it could be a thin lacquer layer).


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Yeah well I wanted to see Tsukiji anyway, so that wasn't a big issue. 

I indeed did use the knife, what you see is the patina after two onions, couple of chillies, three cloves of garlic and some potatoes. Took me by surprise that a patina develops THAT fast. Cleaned it immediately after finishing cutting each veggie.


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## chrislehrer (Oct 9, 2008)

The super-quick reaction will die down shortly.

Nice knife!

I'm sorry your Aritsugu experience was so blah. I think it's probably the Tsukiji-tourist effect: tourists have nearly destroyed that market, and there's now a huge project to move it to a new location just to handle them, so there's a good deal of resentment from people who work there.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

So I've heard, IMO a new location is badly needed! The market will most likely lose much of it's charme, but what do you expect in a city as modern as Tokyo. Guess it's inevitable. 

To be honest, I can kind of understand these Japanese shopkeepers. A culture which values quality this deeply and honors artisans that much just doesn't go well with tourists.


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

How's the blade profile suiting you?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Since I adopted a more thrusting motion, it is suiting me pretty well. Dicing onions, reliably slicing garlic thin enough to see through, dicing potatoes or chunks of bacon, all no problem. Have only used it two times though.


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

looks like tsubaya


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## rick alan (Nov 15, 2012)

You pay for the mirror polish. Togiharu 


JBroida said:


> looks like tsubaya


Can you tell us more?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

http://tsubaya.co.jp maybe?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

http://tsubaya.co.jp/?pid=107801913

Should be this knife then I guess? Maybe I mixed up blue #2 and blue super. It's definitely the same shop, and the knife looks exactly the same.

For easier comparison:





  








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Anything you can tell me about the manufacturer?


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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

foody518 said:


> http://tsubaya.co.jp maybe?


yeah... the sign in the picture of the store says the store name (helps to read japanese  )


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

tsu.PNG




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## jbroida (Nov 13, 2011)

haha... i really didnt even notice the english


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## sweetrub (Jun 27, 2017)

It's funny...over the years, I completely got away from my German knives and have built a collection of around 30 or so Japanese knives. To me, they are far superior. There are few places in the world that could really give the Germans a run for their money but, the Japanese certainly have. I have several custom jobs, big names, entry levels, etc.. Of them all, I still finding myself constantly reaching for my Shun because it was the first introduction to Japanese-ish knives I bought. Since then, I've found several brands half the price of the Shun, that out-perform ANY German piece I own. If you'll mainly be using this as a workhorse knife, and not a showpiece, check out brands like Tojiro. I was able to pickup a powdered steel 12" gyuto for under $200.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Well thanks for your advice @Sweetrub, but the knife is already bought. Since about five weeks actually.

Will consider that when extending my "collection" in the future, though.

Since we reactivated this threat anyways, is it ok not to spend 100$ or more on sharpening stones?


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

For just your new knife, you'll be fine with a medium and fine stone, something like 1k/6k or 800/4k grits. Some sort of flattening solution. Under $100 for those is doable


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Hey guys, sorry for my late answer. Just returned from a long trip abroad, I'm back in Germany now.

And no, I am not a somewhat experienced sharpener. I have never used a whetstone in my life.

@benuser, regarding the inexpensive stones you recommended: here in Germany the Naniwa Pro 400 seems to start at 52$, including a holder (). Some Amazon plugin is messing up the link for me, included a space in this one: https://www.am azon.de/Naniwa-Superstone-Schleifstein-2004-K%C3%B6rnung/dp/B003V3PLMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500442912&sr=8-1&keywords=Naniwa+400
Blue Belgian whetstones of a similar size can be found in a price range of 52 to 87$ (http://www.belgischerbrocken.de/lng/en/belgian-blue-whetstone/?count=40).

That's 104$ for two stones, without any other equipment. Would you consider this the minimum for Aogami Super Blue Steel? If so, I am willing to spend that much if it must be, but I would also welcome a cheaper alternative.

For example, I've seen this combo stone being recommended: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...ucts_id=2055:f03d9b2e96f5118a2f6d6948ee90c53d

Regarding a flattening solution, is it necessary to start with a proper flattening stone? I have a few tiles lying around, smooth as glass. Was hoping to just glue some sandpaper on them and use those.

Also, are there any tools which help to hold the correct angle which are worth buying?

Best regards!


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## foody518 (Aug 6, 2015)

I think the combo from TFJ is a great value though not sure what your situation would be on any import/customs fees. They are both soaking stones, whereas the Naniwas you linked are effectively splash and go (no soak). Still, neither of those will do what a 400 grit stone will do (though there is the 320 Cerax add-on option in that combo stone link). I don't think you should need a 320-400 grit on your knife a while though, based on the knife you got. 

The way Benuser has recommended sharpening, there is little need for hitting a specific angle time after time. Start behind the edge and do a pass then raise the angle bit by bit until you are at the edge and have generated a burr. This also builds in slight thinning and the easing of any bevel shoulders that might develop through repetitively hitting only one angle. Also, Sharpie/Magic Marker to highlight the edge and somewhat behind it so you have an visual indicator of where is being abraded on the stones. This will help you build some angle control and muscle memory over time as well.
There are probably also cheap or free phone Clinometer/Tilt apps that can help you visually get a feel for what something like a 15 degree angle looks like

Glass and coarse sandpaper can certainly work. Just slower, and wash everything off afterwards. Flatten with wetted stones - not when they are in their dry state


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

You're totally right, including delivery (and excluding import tariffs, I don't know if they would apply), the price difference wouldn't even be that big. Just ordered the two stones recommended from benuser.


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

Hi everyone!

Quick question:

I feel like it´s time to get a 3rd sharpening stone to complement my Naniwa Super Stone 1000 and the Blue Belgian one. I feel like the Belgian doesn´t quite do the trick for me or just takes a bit too long, so maybe an intermediate step would be helpful. My guess would be a Naniwa 2000 or 3000, but what do I know. Any recommendations?

The main knife is made of blue super steel, but there are also a couple stainless German ones (X50 Cr MoV 15 I suppose). Splash and go is a big plus. 

Best regards!


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

So what you are basically saying is I should not get another stone?


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## dalailamer (Mar 22, 2017)

OK thank you very much, the money will go towards another knife then


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