# Looking to drop dough.



## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

After three years of working in fast-food joints but more often sitting on my butt, I just talked (and cooked) my way into a position at a beautiful, young, energetic set of kitchens.  Probationary training period for two weeks, paid, then who knows.  I've virtually no practical experience at a place like this (never been on the line except during slow lunches when line-cooks would take half-hour smoke breaks and let me drop/finish pasta for them), no formal culinary education, just a dream and ambition.  I'm way in over my head, but looking forward to the baptism under fire.  Looking to drop some dough on some knives.  My 8 inch global chef's knife is looking pretty tired after three years of lazy home use, so I'm going to leave that at home.  For my kit, I'm thinking something like this: Chinese-style chef's knife, 4inch paring knife, 7inch filleting knife, scissors, honing steel.

I really want to go nuts with it, just destroy those credit cards.  On the one hand, there are some cons.  It'll make me look like a spoiled brat if I walk in with half a grand worth of steel.  On the other hand, I mean life is short, why not get shuns?

I was also looking at some fancy japanese waterstones on ebay, but that seems like a enormous investment into something that would take me enormous amounts of time and money to do right.

Peace


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

[h1]http://www.solingenmade.com/messer-scheren/guede/chaidao.html[/h1]

Thoughts? Anyone tried either.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka5.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suchcl6.html

When I start out the job, I'll be working 20 hours a week. Plenty of time to teach myself the noble art of sharpening.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/misonocleaver.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sugimoto-cleaver.html

Thoughts?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

I think you're starting to make sense with the last couple, maybe.  If I were you, I'd call Jon at Japanese Knife Imports.  He's not a real cleaver guy for his own use (he's a gyuto guy), but he knows which cleavers are good bang for the buck, and he knows which have good design and which have good steel and which have both....

Or you can wait for someone who has used a bunch of cleavers to tell you something more direct.

Sorry not more from me.  I have a cheap CCK cleaver that I like to play with on occasion, but I'm much more comfortable with a gyuto, too.  I like the IDEA of cleavers because I see what someone like Martin Yan can do with just the one tool.... it's astounding.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

What seems to interest you are Japanese perfected Chinese cleavers. They're called _chuka bocho_. Now you know.

Not a cleaver user, me -- so only a couple of warnings, no knife recommendations and no knife comparisons. I will say though that of the knives you're looking at, only the Sugimoto #6 is anywhere near what a high end chuka bocho costs..

Stay away from Gude. I don't know the cleaver, but do know most of their other knives; they are designed to be back heavy, and the blade alloy is less than great. Shun has a sub-mediocre reputation.

As I understand it, the mid $200s Suien is considered the bargain basement, entry-level of the high-end. But I could have that wrong.

JCK has a better high-zoot selection than CKTG, and much better than JKI (who only has two, both out of stock). I don't know what, if anything, Jon knows about chuka bocho, and don't believe he's a user. But it never hurts to ask. FWIW, he may be out of the country for the next week or so.

Do yourself a favor, sign up on Fred's Cutlery Forum at the Foodie Forums and on the Knife Forum too. There are plenty of users on both boards, one or two of them articulate.

Just curious, and not trying to talk you into or out of anything... Why a cleaver? Why not a good gyuto? You can get more knife for a lot less money. If you're basing your decision on your previous chef's, Global is not a high-end knife. There are much, much better; and 8" is not a pro length.

Do you know that these type of cleavers are not strong enough for heavy duty work? What are you going to bring for breaking chickens, and cutting gourds and fruit with thick rinds? What are you going to bring for fish? Is the "fillet" for both fish and red meat? What kind of fillet did you have in mind?

You do realize that a cleaver is NOT the same as a Gyuto? You really want to master an entirely different skill set while starting a new job? You also realize that by being different and unskilled, you're asking for bad attention.

How good are your regular knife skills? Pinch and claw? Speed chop? Know and do the "basic" cuts?

What's are the states of your sharpening kit and sharpening skills? Don't dump a lot of money into edges unless and until you have a plan to maintain them.

What do you want a 4" parer for? Why not a 5 - 7" petty?

What does "big bucks mean?" What's your total, real budget?

Let's get this show on the road, while there's still time.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

I saw a guy in Tokyo who worked at a traditional cantonese place, I think he's the one who made me think about the power of a well used _chuka bochos _originally, though I'm pretty sure he had formal Chinese culinary training. I think for me the appeal is the ability of a chinese veg cleaver is using the wide blade to transfer food to the pan/wok, although the wa gyuto is looking pretty slick. Does it hurt that they are unusual and look cool? Of course not. The fillet knife would be mostly for fish, I don't see myself breaking down red meat anytime soon, though I should always be prepared. The global is a PoS indeed, though I've seen them in numerous professional kitchens. As for my knife-work, I can hold a knife properly, cut properly, but the global never felt right in my hands. And I have tiny hands, and the usual complaint is that the global handles are too small.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html

Something more this speed wet your whistle?

I'd say, 300 is the most I'd spend on a single knife atm.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Got a solid nights sleep (first since job offer) and did some research on knives/styles/steel and so on. I think a gyuto is perfect for me, given the kitchens I'll be working at in the immediate future and my familiarity with the western chef's knife in terms of profile. With shun I'd be paying Aogami prices for inferior steel as far as I can tell.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIAogamiSuperSeries.html

How do the KAS-5, KAS-6 look?

In terms of rest of kit- a fillet knife for boning and a fillet knife for doing fish, a 6" utility knife, scissors, nice peeler, honing steel.

Seem reasonable?


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

You know what, ignore me.  I'm going to lurk on some gyuto forums, work with in-house stuff at least for the first few weeks.


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## petemccracken (Sep 18, 2008)

tabla kid said:


> You know what, ignore me. I'm going to lurk on some gyuto forums, work with in-house stuff at least for the first few weeks.


Probably a very smart move!


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Does anyone here have experience with hiromoto knives?  Specifically, the tenmi jyuraku with the aogami core and the stainless steel exterior.  Can you really have the best of both worlds?  It seems like something has to be lost...


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Don't get too starry eyed over exotic alloys like Aogami Super. Until you learn to sharpen, there is absolutely no advantage. I don't care what it's made from, any dull knife is a dull knife. And even if and when you do learn to sharpen really well, you'll find that the distinctions between the high priced exotics and good but more mundane alloys are still pretty subtle. They make more of a difference in how a blade feels on the stones than how it cuts onions or even how often you have sharpen -- if you care about sharpness. 

As it happens, I bought four Hiromoto AS a few years ago: two gyutos, a suji and a petty. We purchased to replace our core group of working knives, a motley group of carbon Sabatiers, with something more modern and easier to maintain. Few knife purchases have been more disappointing. Neither my wife nor I liked the Hiromotos nearly as much as the Sabs, and we ended up passing them on.

Part of my dislike stems from their laminated, san-mai construction which makes them feel damped and numb to me. Most people either don't feel it or don't care, though. Call it 2:1. Edge taking was average; both in terms of absolute sharpness and ease of sharpening (take it for what it's worth, but I'm a very good sharpener). Their edge holding -- which supposedly what AS is all about -- was slightly better than average; but since they didn't steel nearly as well as the Sabs, the Hiromotos still required more maintenance. 

The handles were thin, short and not nearly as good as any of the Sabs -- they're marginally better than Global, but my guess is that you'd end up finding them uncomfortable for the same reasons. 

The Sabatier chef's knife's profile is ridiculously better than the Hiromoto gyuto's. So is Masamoto's, MAC Pro's, and a bunch of others. 

A lot of people swear by them, though, and I'm sure they have good reasons. In my opinion though, if you're going to buy a san-mai blade, the Tojiro DP is every bit as good as the Hiromoto AS, and is considerably less money.

If you're dead set on dropping big money before starting work, we should talk about the MAC Pro and Masamoto VG gyutos, maybe a very few others, the MAC Superior bread knife, filling in the rest of the kit with a few R.H. Forschners, and work out a plan and budget for sharpening.

I can't overemphasize how important sharpening is. It's not particularly hard to do, and makes everything soooooooooooooo much more efficient, easier, and fun.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

I've already started, and let me tell you I'd rather use my dull chipped global than the in-house santoku I was prepping with last night. The only plus side is that I have a head-start on my cook's callous. I'm probably going to bring my global in today. I have a great collection of old stainless steel knives for learning the noble art of sharpening.

Does anyone have experience with a solid aogami knife? I'm leaning towards carbon atm.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIAogamiSuperSeries.html

I guess with this I'm paying for the nice sandalwood wa grip, but The Gunslinger uses sandalwood grips, and he's more man than I'll ever be. And, compared to a carbon masamoto these are pretty reasonable.

Service at 5, lets pretend I'm actually a line-cook, or that I actually can memorize the 41 item menu in a couple hours.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

I have lots of experience with "solid" shirogami knives; and just a little with aogami. What do you want to know?

FWIW, the knives to which you linked aren't "solid," they're "san-mai" with a "damascus" look pattern jigane. The pattern's actually called suminagashi. 

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

San-mai makes no sense to me.  San means three, shouldn't it be ni-mai?  Either way, lets take san-mai off the table.

Is there such a thing as a budget or entry high-carbon Japanese gyuto?  Something I can cut my teeth into in terms of sharpening where I won't feel guilty for my trespasses.


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

San-mai because three layers.  Two steels, perhaps, but a middle layer "sandwiched". 

When you say "high carbon" are you talking about carbon-steel? The phrase is imprecise and usually applied to stainless (itself a misnomer).  The answer is yes, whatever you mean, but I'll let BDL talk you through the options, him having direct and indirect experience of far more knives than I.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

San-mai is a three layer laminate sandwich with soft jigane on the outside, and a hard hagane on the inside. The jigane are very thin, and the cutting edge is entirely formed on the hagane. Pattern welded jiganes are made separately from the hagane, and applied as a single layer. So, even though the jigane on one side may itself be 31 layers, 2 layers on both sides, and the whole knife 63 layers in one sense; from a construction standpoint it's still san-mai. And indeed, the knife will act like a san-mai in every meaningful respect and not like "wootz" or some other "true" Damascus.

What you want to call ni-mai is actually called _kasumi_. Few, if any, western-style knives are made kasumi.

But enough with that. Let's get down to figuring out your next knife.

By "high carbon" do you mean a steel alloy (including non-stainless, semi-stainless and stainless) with a carbon content greater than 0.50%? Or, do you mean a high-end, big-name non-stainless alloy like Aogami Super? Or, something else?

Yo (western style handle and tang), wa (Japanese style handle, machi and tang), or either?

Anything special we should know in terms of wants, cant's, dislikes, or must haves?

What's your price range just for the knife?

How do you sharpen now? If you need to improve your sharpening kit, how much are you willing to spend on that?

Lecture warning: Buying knives is fun and sexy. Buying sharpening gear you will learn to use and actually use as frequently as you ought is significantly less fun. But sharpening is everything. If you can't sharpen a knife to somewhere near its potential (usually much sharper than it came from the factory), and keep it very sharp, expensive knives are a waste of money. It doesn't matter how good, how perfect, how high-quality, how beautiful, how expensive, how comfortable, how anything. All knives dull eventually, any dull knife is a dull knife, and all dull knives are equally crap.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm in wrapping up my first week at the restaurant.  Chef A is a guy who is running things, and has taken note of my urgent, fretful work and assured me of job security, my trainability, and so on.  I started out using a dull, heavy stainless steel santoku used by Chef A, which tore up that joint on my index finger royally.  Yesterday I brought in a global I had gotten as a gift, because you-know-who recommended it in that book he wrote.  I think that, in addition to the fact that as a trainee I cost time rather than free it on in some aspects, brought the ire of Chef B, but I got through my prep-work with less resistance.  I need to get the global sharpened, order a some waterstones and get practicing.  The other piece of kit I actually need is a super-nice peeler.  The in house one is a plastic POS.  I'm also interested in leaning how to do decorative veg cuttings and presentations, cause there tends to be downtime I put into bull cleaning the lazy waitstaff should be doing.  So like a Japanese style paring knife, I dunno.

I'm not willing to bring anything to work that costs more than 200-250 dollars at the end of the day.  I still don't really know what I want, I mean but if anyone has a gyuto they can recommend in that range, be is ni-mai, san-mai, san-hyaku-san-mai or futa-kushi, something they've used in a less than perfect conditions that is still going strong.  I the few wa style knives I've held seem to feel pretty comfortable.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

You don't need to spend anywhere near that much. The knife I most often recommend as the first, really good, stainless, Japanese chef's knife is the MAC Pro. It's a little bit less than what you said you were prepared to spend, and in your case, it's probably the best all around choice in its price range. In the same range, but a little more expensive, is the Masamoto VG. We can talk about these if you're willing to spend $150ish for a single knife. 

But before you say, "OK Boar, let's talk," you'd probably be better with a Fujiwara FKM or Tojiro DP as a first, good, stainless gyuto. They're both excellent entry-level Japanese knives, will get significantly sharper than the Global (once you learn to sharpen), and are much easier to keep sharp too. They're not in the same league as the MAC or Masamoto, but more than good enough for you to learn on. The Fujiwara is about $80, the Tojiro around $100.

FWIW, your Global isn't a bad knife by any means. They're extremely agile, for one thing. They have some issues though which happen to play to your weaknesses. That is, they take a fair amount of work to get and keep sharp; won't work their best without a little "profiling" in the form of thinning -- especially around the heel; and the handle is not friendly to most people's grip styles -- and twice as hostile when the knife is dull. Whether it's a good idea to get a better entry level knife or learn to maintain and use the Global is not an easy question to answer. Because the Global is so short, so perversely wrong for you (at least for the next couple of months), and you're already strongly leaning that way, my guess is that a new knife is probably best -- but if money's tight you may want to concentrate on learning to sharpen.

Until you buy and receive your new knife, you need to find some way to get your Global sharp and keep it sharp NOW, so you have something to work with. If you can find someone to sharpen it for you -- someone who actually knows how to sharpen and will sharpen it at the appropriate 15* bevel -- you're good to go. If you can't, and can afford $80, get a Chef's Choice 316, use it for now, and keep it for a backup sharpener when you move on to freehanding or an EP. If you can't afford the $80, get a Fiskars Roll Sharp. You want something you can continue to use until you develop some expertise with your permanent choice, and (as I said about the CC) as a back up.

You're also going to want a decent rod hone (aka steel) -- around $30.

Is your $200ish budget for knife, sharpening, everything? Or just the knife? 

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Chopping up a giant pile of flat parsley made it clear an 8" chef's won't be enough for me. I'm not much one for the twist-and-chop technique, which they say is a problem with NIHONJIN STEEL. My callous is coming in exactly where it should. Given the work pace, my global fell twice without major damage, I need to consider my realistic options. http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKI.html 240mm. I'd have to learn how to put a nice proper bevel on it, but it looks sturdy enough for real kitchen use.

Peace


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

The _Kagayaki Basic ES_ is an okay blade, but it has a short, narrow handle and indiferent F&F. OOTB edge quality is variable. Don't buy the extra cost sharpening as pretty much everyone who's bought it has been quite unhappy. Kagayakis were flavor of the month when they came out and got a lot of recommendations then, but you hardly hear anything about them anymore. They've lost their groove for good reasons.

The _Fujiwara FKM_ is both better all 'round, cheaper, and usually comes sharper out of the box than the Basic ES. The Fujiwara has been one of the most popular entry-level pro knives for awhile and will likely remain that way for quite awhile longer. Same or similar AUS 8/440C as the Basic ES, I believe.

In and around the price range you'd probably like the _Tojiro DP_ best, as it's the sturdiest feeling, has the biggest handle, and consistently comes sharper OOTB. FWIW, the DP is san-mai (three layer laminate) and used to have a Swedish alloy as its core steel, but now uses VG-10. Gets sharp, stays sharp, big bargain. Tojiro DPs have been one of the most popular and most recommended entry-level pros for a great deal longer than the Fujiwara, and just as deservedly. I don't like san-mai knives for my own use, but my reasons almost certainly don't apply to you.

Nothing means much unless and until you make a commitment to sharpening. Just sayin'.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpwa24.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpchkn24.html

my hands are small, I think I'm going to go with the wa. Cheaper anywho. Need my sleep opening tomorrow with the boss.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Need some gear to keep it nice and sharp.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

> my hands are small, I think I'm going to go with the wa. Cheaper anywho. Need some gear to keep it nice and sharp.


Yo is fine. FYI, yo or wa, hand size doesn't matter. Where did you get the idea it might?

Along the lines of a similar misconception -- hand size should seldom determine handle size (or style). Unless you have extremely small or extremely large hands, your grip style and mechanics make more difference. One reason I directed you towards the Tojiro, which has a large handle -- at least by Japanese standards -- is because you death grip your Global. Read Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch and Guillotine and Glide. They'll help you a lot.

Nothing's going to help that much as long as you're using dull knives. The best sharpening choices for you are functions of how much time you're willing to spend learning how to sharpen, and how much money you're willing to put into equipment. In the meantime, get your Global sharpened ASAP.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm dedicated enough to learn freehand sharpening.  I don't mind using my global as a whipping boy for my early failures.  A 1000/6000 combo stone, and one of those waterstone leveler stones, should that be enough to get started?


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

My all around budget is about 300 dollars, including sharpening equipment.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

fujiwara FKM vs FKH?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

stainless vs carbon steel...

The idea in general is that the carbon is easier to sharpen and may have better edge retention; it also requires more care and feeding, and doesn't stay super shiny.

A patina is protective against rust, so good. But not shiny.  The blade does it does stain quickly with acidic foods.  If you're ok with the look, the "care and feeding" really means it has to be wiped, it has to be rinsed and wiped immediately when you're done.  Don't leave it wet on the board, or worse live with people who will leave it wet in the sink.  If you can put the immediate care into it, it's not really different or more care.  It's just more immediate. Also, before a decent patina, it might impart a less than great flavor to food, and color, too.  (I'm not sure, but if memory serves me well, this is a bigger problem with the Fuji FKH than some other carbon steel knives, too -- I believe people complain about the smell until it settles down.  So consider). 

Stainless is less demanding in those regards.

By the way... do you play tablas when you're not cooking?


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Fujiwara FKH ONLY if you really WANT a Japanese carbon and really trying to keep costs down. 

Whatever alloy Fujiwara uses for the FKH, it's extremely reactive and takes forever to settle down -- even with daily baking soda treatments. It will impart an odor and an off color to just abMout everything for months; not to mention broadcasting its own unpleasant aroma through your kitchen while you use it. Once it settles down, it's okay but nothing to write home about.

Sabatier carbons are much better knives and don't cost much -- if any -- more. Of course the Sabs are softer, need more frequent steeling, have full-finger bolsters, and aren't Japanese.

Masamoto CT, Misono Sweden, Kikuichi (carbon) Elite: All much better as well. They have a different set of strengths and weaknesses but average out to about the same performance levels as a Sab; without, of course, the Sabatier caveats. 

Masamoto HC, Tadatsuna White #2 yo-gyuto: Very, very expensive, but as good as mass produced yo-gyutos get.

Do you really want a non-stainless knife? The steels used in good Japanese knives don't give up much to good carbons in terms of edge qualities; and aren't nearly as needy in terms of maintenance. Personally, I LOVE carbon, "High maintenance, but worth it." But it's most definitely not the right choice for everyone. 

Think twice, then twice again. 

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm realistically looking to drop 150-225 US on a 240mm chef's knife and a petty, and whatever investment is needed to keep my knives sharp.  I think the reason I' m going towards Japanese is one, of course, the whole cool samurai thing.  But also is the memory of my dad's wusthof, which he got in the 70s. It's still going strong like a tank, but I don't think he's ever had it ground, just the occasional honing from the equally ancient steel.  It also felt like a badly tuned instrument in my hand, which I suppose it because of neglect more than failure of design.  

In terms of my knife-skills and style, I'm amateur at best.  I'm getting by with the quality of my prep b/c the restaurant has such slack standards with most things.  I tend to use a sort of rocking motion, with the tip on the cutting board and the heel of the blade coming down in what I feel is a nice, natural bouncy motion.  My off-hand I would like to think is always in a nice, protected claw, but I'm green and I know I'm taking shortcuts when I'm frazzled or in a hurry.

I don't trust any of the sharpening places around where I live to put a proper bevel on the global, so for now I'm using it rather than use the beat up dexter in house.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

So... Fujiwara FKM vs Tojiro DP

Qualities I'm looking for:

Will stand up to demanding kitchen use.

Bouncy, responsive knife with nice feel.

If all things are equal, I'd go with the Fujiwara as I am a line-cook not a day-job holder.

Questions I have about them:

Care and Use

Sharpening equipment

Honing equipment 

What considerations in terms of the petty, and what if anything else would I need to round out a scrappy cook's kit?


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

My own input will be general here... I often recommend Chad Ward's book, 'An Edge in the Kitchen' (and then give caveats -- things I disagree with, anyway). But what is a really excellent, detailed chapter on sharpening in general, with plenty enough info on maintenance and honing, is available for free on his website here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/ So have a look there. (I took "care and use" to mean maintenance... if "use" actually means knife-skills, there are more recommendations for web-available instruction).

And plagiarizing my own post from another thread with the same considerations and questions:

A thread with the standard "best-of" beginners stones is here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/67134/first-set-of-waterstones

The honing rod -- look at the Idahone fine grit ceramic rod. If you get it, don't drop it. Unless you know your longest knife is 8" and likely to be that for a while, get the 12". It's only 3bucks more than the 10"; the rule of thumb is you want a rod that's at least 2" longer than your knife.

Flattening -- the expensive (and good) way is to get a DMT XXC (i.e., the Extra-extra-coarse) diamond stone. The marginally better but more expensive way is the get the equivalent Atoma stone. The less expensive way is to get some drywall screen (BDL has talked about that at some length, recently, on one of Luis' threads - here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/67399/quick-question-on-stone-flattening ).


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Can anyone talk about using a sabatier for prep and on the line?

http://thebestthings.com/knives/sabatierstainless.htm

I'm leaning towards a four-star elephant sabatier, a fujiwara FKM petty as my initial work set- and a GOOD PEELER.


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riknad24.html

Alternative I found.


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

Tabla this is just a thought, but since you seem to be "all over the place" with what my be your next knife while at the same time in dire need of a sharp edge for your livelihood you may want to consider getting that combo stone ASAP and pick one of the entry level brands you have discussed with the others already to get whatever piece(s) your missing so you can get to work, and then later at your leisure pick out what others or replacements you may want to buy down the road.

I think, well no I know from my own experience with this that you can take up a lot of time going over all the various brands, possibilities, and pro's and con's and that is going to mean a lot of time with that dexter you love so much 

Your blisters will thank you

PS do not let the lower cost of the Tojiro fool you as the DP series I have are good performers, came with plenty of good recommendation (here and other forums) as a work horse, and despite the price and some downfalls compared to the much more expensive brands will get seriously sharp, and really hold the edge a good while. I like the Fujiwara I have also, but everyday you compare things and add to the list is another day without your new sharp knife.

PSS IMHO get the stone(s) you want/need, but go with BDL's suggestion for flattening with drywall sand paper as it works well, and costs pennies (sorry if he did not mention in this thread yet, but that was going to happen soon lol).

Hope that helps!!!


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Sabatier carbons are great on the line, as long as you're the right kind of person. You can't put the knife down without wiping it. You do have to walk to the sink and rinse it often; use a steel several times per shift, and rub the knife down with baking soda every evening. But they get very sharp, need to go to the stones a little less often than most other knives, are very well priced, and have a profile that is among the very few very best (Masamoto and Konosuke are in the same class). It was THE knife for more than half a century, and still one of the greats. But now that good stainless knives are so available, carbon is not for everyone.

True about sharpening your Global. At this stage it really doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you do it (or have it done) to 15*. Like I said, a Rollsharp is good enough to be a hell of a lot better than what you have. A Norton 8" Combination India stone would be a great start. You could even take it to SLT and let them run it through their Chef's Choice (for way too much money). Just do it ASAP. A sharp knife will make your life so much easier.

If you're going to get water stones -- which sounds like the eventual plan -- yes to drywall screen as THE cost effective flattening method.

BDL


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## wagstaff (May 30, 2011)

tabla kid linked to Sab stainless; contra BDL's answer regarding the Sab carbons, BDL has answered before with recommendation against the Stainless simply based on the steel.  The profile is still the beautiful profile.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Sorry about the cabon confusion. Sab stainless? Compared to "typical" high-end Germans: significantly better ergonomics, equal alloy, lesser F&F, lesser hardening, lesser edge overall edge properties. Bottom Line: Don't bother. Top line Wusthof and Messers are overall probably better unless you really want a French profile and don't want a Japanese knife. I'm not sure about Henckels, it's been a long time since I looked at them and there has supposedly been improvement. 

Overall, despite the profile, not much better than R. H. Forschner, and significantly more expensive. Similarly priced to Fujiwara/Tojiro, but nowhere near as good.

BDL


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

Oh I have a roll over so I'm good with the global until my new knives come. Decided to go with the a Tojiro DP (wa handle) 240mm chef's knife, a fujiwara FKM 120mm petty, tojiro shears, and a bester set of stones. I've been all over the place because I've gone in the course of a week from a home cook foodie to a line-cook in the course of a couple of weeks. Thanks for the heads up on the drywall sandpaper.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/3pcstoneset.html

Are things like these useful?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/chshgu.html


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/anglecube.html

would either that or the guide help me to get a correct angle before I can just do it naturally?


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## lennyd (Dec 3, 2010)

After clicking the link I was onto that angle cube pretty quickly as well.

I think either way would be fine, and even though I am sure you would figure it out with out them (hey just look at all the really good help available here, and yea some of these guys are really good) if it gives you the confidence you may not otherwise have then why not.

I had also looked over the edge guides when making my initial purchase, but decided against it for some reason I can not remember, but I am finding the angle cube an interesting product (just be careful if you play the vid on the page as it is like watching paint dry for 9 minutes lol) and looks like it should be very useful as well.

Since the angle measuring equipment I do have is too large to get really accurate readings on a knife blade this tool would be really helpful in not only initial angle setting on the stone, but also for checking edges after sharpening or even before as well.

One question I do not have an answer to is if the stainless or even some of the semi stainless steels used in most knives is magnetic enough to hold the cube in place on the blade?

Going to have to check on this one.

Far as your knife selection I think you will be happy, and also will be able to compare two very popular steels for ease of sharpening, sharpness and edge retention etc. which will be a good thing when it comes time to add to your set as you will have some points for comparison when looking at more expensive knives.

Being a home cook now I actually went the opposite with the Fuji Gyuto, and Tojiro petty due to there being a cost savings this way and my not needing or having as much concern with the edge retention difference on the main knife.

Also if I was to get back into a commercial kitchen again I think these are near the top of the price range I would want to use until I was very comfortable with coworkers and lost fear of potential loss.

Be sure to keep everyone posted on what you think when you receive your order!


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## tabla kid (Sep 10, 2011)

New thread, this one served its purpose.

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/67528/my-new-kit


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

tabla kid said:


> http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riknad24.html
> 
> Alternative I found.


This may be a bit late but I absolutely love the Addict! Disclosure: I've sharpened some of the for Mark @ CKtG and those blades can be purchased from him. Setting that aside I will say I loved them so much I kept one for myself! The original factory edge is acceptable to most but not great. And it's a lot of work to cut the initial bevel! The first one took me three and a half hours to sharpen. After that I switched to a DMT for the rough work on the others and things went much better. After the initial sharpening I used my Addict exclusively at work, and the knife went 5 weeks in a pro kitchen before I felt the need to switch it out for another knife. That's good edge retention! I will admit that I wasn't using it to cut a lot of raw meats, though.

While I agree with BLD most of the time he & I must agree to disagree re the Hiromoto AS. I love mine! It takes a spectacular edge and I simply like the looks. It's a bit heavy for a J-knife but still much nimbler than a German.

Lastly I'd be in danger of losing my fanboy status if I didn't toss in a recommendation for the Kagayaki CarboNext. It's probably my favorite knife under $200.


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## boar_d_laze (Feb 13, 2008)

Loads of people I respect like the AS, some don't. Many people don't like san-mai knives of any sort because it feels "dead" and "damped" on the board and in the cut. Phaedrus knows a lot of them respects the viewpoint even if he doesn't share it. More like san-mai or at least aren't bothered by it than those who don't like it, it's just one of those things. 

I'm also not in love with Hiromoto chefs' comfort and handling. We had two Hiromoto cooks knives for several months and didn't find those to be anywhere near the level of the old Sabatiers we' planned to replace. 

I don't think it's a bad knife; just that there are knives in the same price range which feel better in the hand and on the board with as or nearly as-good edge properties. When I talk about the AS I always mention that it's generally well loved, and always have Phaedrus in mind when doing so. It doesn't really matter, but I much prefer the (solid steel) Hiromoto G3. It's not in my top two or three at its price, I usually don't bring it up. 

Differences of opinions make for horse races,
BDL


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## phaedrus (Dec 23, 2004)

I have my favorites among both the laminates and the monosteels.  In the san-mai group I'm a huge fan of the Akifusa gyuto (one of my most used daily drivers).  But I suppose just by coincidence the rest of my favorites are constructed of one steel.  Right up there with my Akifusa I'd have list the Kagayaki CarboNext and the Ichimonji TKCs.  When I had my Hattori KF/FH I really loved it, too.  I judge every one on a knife-by-knife basis.

I've never handled a Hiro G3.  I almost bought one but once I tried a few CN's it's been hard to justify spending more on a knife I probably won't like as much.  If the G3 version is the same as the AS in shape/feel/handing then I'd say the CN is a better knife...at least in my hands.


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